Howard Bloom joins Art Bell to warn of Al-Qaeda’s nuclear ambitions, revealing two French-assisted diesel-electric submarines in Islamic hands—capable of 60-day submerged missions with nuclear-tipped missiles. Bloom argues Osama bin Laden’s genocidal ideology, backed by Quranic texts and Iranian allies, could trigger simultaneous attacks on Western cities to break America’s spirit, risking a new Dark Ages. His book So Far, The Secret Osama compiles bin Laden’s speeches, exposing a multi-generational jihad since 640 A.D., where even unicellular life like Radiodurans might outlast humanity if nuclear war erupts. [Automatically generated summary]
From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be across the cosmos.
The weekend has arrived.
Come on.
I'm Mark Bell.
It is my honor and privilege to be with you, escorting you through the weekend of Talk Radio.
It's gonna be quite something.
Tomorrow night, we are going to devote entirely to open mind.
Now, you know how that goes?
Um, literally anything can be and should be expected, I might add.
Totally open lines tomorrow night.
We may or may not decide to have a theme.
I've been doing that for years.
If I think of something I really, really want to squeeze from all of you, I'll develop some kind of theme, and I'm open to any ideas, as usual.
There is a universe of them out there.
All right.
Let's look quickly at what's occurring in the world, shall we?
Depressing as that usually is, Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry Saturday urged the president to stand up and stop what he's calling personal attacks over his combat record Vietnam.
I'm sure you've heard about this by now, right?
At a fundraiser attended by about 750, Kerry said the attacks by a group of Vietnam vets and former SWIFT boat commanders have intensified because in the last months they've seen me climbing in America's understanding that, well, I know how to fight smarter and more effective wars against terrorism.
So he'd be more effective, he says, and that's why they're attacking his Vietnam record or Cambodia record or whatever it is.
Yeah, well, the issue is war, isn't it?
And militants loyal to radical Shiite cleric Mutadil Sadder kept a hold on a revered shrine and clashes flared in Najef, Najef, rather.
It's not a friendly place at all for us, raising fears that a resolution of the crisis in the holy city could collapse amid bickering between Shiite leaders.
And I guess there's going to be a big fight there.
Shape it up that way.
The U.S. men's basketball team endured another brutal loss Saturday night, but because Angola is playing even worse, we are still in the quarterfinals.
So overall, though, I think we're doing quite well.
And they're calling these the Olympics that no one showed up at.
And tonight on, I think it was CNN, I saw a pathetic little picture of the stands occupied by one couple, one couple, Cubans, some other country were playing a game, and there was one couple in the stands.
Oh, man.
So they've decided they're not going to give away tickets no matter what.
And I've been watching the Olympics and enjoying them.
So there you are.
Governments throughout Mexico and Central America, this is interesting, are on alert as evidence appears to be growing that Al-Qaeda members are traveling in the region and they're looking for recruits to carry out attacks in Latin America, the potential last frontier for international terrorism, it said.
So Al-Qaeda is going to recruit and then carry out attacks in South America.
I wonder how our borders are doing.
Well, pretty porous, huh?
They are pretty porous.
Pakistan has, get this, arrested at least five Al-Qaeda-linked terrorists.
You know, so many have been arrested now and or killed that you wonder how, don't you ever wonder how big Al-Qaeda is?
I certainly do.
Apparently a lot bigger than we thought.
So this terrorist group, I mean, when you consider we've been knocking them off right and left in Afghanistan and elsewhere in the world, and still we're facing them.
So there must be a lot of them out there.
Anyway, Pakistan claims to have arrested five of them that were plotting a suicide attack on probably the U.S. Embassy and government leaders.
They captured five or six suspects, one Egyptian, the other Pakistani, the other's Pakistani.
So there must be a lot of al-Qaeda out there.
Indeed.
More than we thought, certainly, right?
America's top speed eater, speed eater, wolfed down 38 lobsters in 12 short, death-defying moments Saturday to win the World Lobster Eating Contest.
Sonia Thomas, it's a girl.
Sonia Thomas of Alexandria, Virginia, won $500 and got a trophy belt for her efforts consuming, get this, 9.76 pounds of lobster meat.
ordinary My wife, Ramona, as you may or may not know, is well, I am too, but she is, she's a huge reality TV fan.
I mean a huge fan.
She watches Big Brother on the computer every day, as many hours as she can squeeze in.
She loves Survivor.
I love Survivor too, and actually I like Big Brother, but she's in there every minute.
I mean, she is a huge reality TV fan.
And it was inevitable that this would occur.
And I thought I might sort of bring you into the loop on what it's like to be invited to one of these programs.
Last night, Ramona grabbed this email off AOL that I'm about, I think, to read.
I think I'm going to read it to you.
And she just went berserk.
This was, you know, to her, this was a giant.
And there is, you know, she was saying, come on, come on, do it, do it, do it.
Do it.
And she was laughing so hard.
Anyway, so here's the deal.
It says, Dear Miss Bell, allow me to introduce myself.
My name is Christian Prouty.
I'm casting director of the Surreal Life and a fan of your show.
That's nice.
The Surreal Life is about six celebrities, all from separate worlds, who spend 12 days together, living in a house and also venturing out to do various fun activities.
Before you stop reading, hear me out on all the reasons why it'd be a positive thing for you.
First and foremost, this would show the world a man who is not afraid to show his true self.
Put yourself in a house with five diverse people and show America how you handle the circumstance, any circumstance.
Take away your radio show and let's discover who Mr. Bell really is.
So first we have the appeal to, no, a challenge, right?
Can you show your real self?
Then the Surreal Life is a hit, especially with the younger generation.
It stands as the highest rated reality show on the WB for 2004.
VH1 is about to launch season three, and the reruns used to promote it have also brought the Surreal Life in at number one for July and August.
Well, I'm happy for them.
The website has gotten millions of hits already, even though season three has yet to launch.
Now, the greatest thing about you, Mr. Bell, is that you defy the norm.
You travel the road less traveled.
And that's why people respond to you and feel like you're a genuine man in search of truth.
People want to hear what you have to say, so reach out to the younger demographic on the show.
Just to give you a little background about the executive producers of the Sir Real Life, they are four of the most powerful players in the reality TV industry.
They've created and produced dozens of shows and have established at nearly every network.
Some of their credits include NBC's Next Action Star, MTV's Surf Girls, Fear, and The Real World, and many more shows.
Mindless Entertainment.
How do you like that for a name?
Mindless Entertainment currently has four number one shows running on four different networks.
The Surreal Life's co-executive producer has also recently won an ME for The Amazing Race.
There's another one we watch.
I really like The Amazing Race.
I really do.
That I might do.
Anyway, the show shoots for 12 days.
I'm saying 12 days of terror.
I added that.
November 1st through November 12th and January.
And we're paying blah amount of dollars, a lot of dollars.
Let me know, and I'll send you tapes and info on the show if needed.
We'd love to make this happen.
And I think it'd be fantastic for you to be seen in a real light.
So that's what you get when you get an invitation to something like that.
Well, no way, Jose.
I wouldn't do that on a bet, not for three times what they're offering.
And, you know, it's just that while I like watching reality TV, I did go and we checked on the web to see what the show was all about.
And it seems the last show, some of the contestants, if that's what they are, or mice in a cage, got to go out and do all these wonderful field trips from their otherwise locked down condition in the house, like, oh, for example, going to a nude beach.
Oh, yeah, that's really me.
Well, so this isn't happening.
I mean, I really appreciate their offer, but I'll pass it on to George.
Now, let's see.
Oh, we have, here we have a story sent in by a listener, which is great.
It's just great.
It's about a biker.
All right.
A biker on a motorcycle cruising through a residential neighborhood.
Little did I suspect, he writes, I was on Bryce Street, a very nice neighborhood with perfect lawns and slow traffic.
As I passed an oncoming car, a brown furry missile shot out from under it and tumbled to a stop immediately in front of me.
It was a squirrel.
A squirrel.
And it must have been trying to run across the road when it encountered the car.
Well, I really wasn't going very fast, but there was no time to brake or avoid it.
It was that close.
I hate to run over animals, but I and I really hate it on a motorcycle.
But a squirrel should pose no danger to me.
I barely had time to brace for the impact.
Animal lovers never fear.
Squirrels, I discovered, can take care of themselves.
Inches before impact, the squirrel flipped to his feet.
He was standing on his hind legs and facing my oncoming Valkyrie with steadfast resolve in his little beady eyes.
His mouth opened, and at the last possible second he screamed and leapt into the air.
I'm pretty sure the scream was squirrel for Bonsai or maybe die, you gravy sucking heathen scum.
The leap was nothing short of spectacular.
He shot straight up, flew over my windshield, and impacted me squarely in the chest.
Instantly he set upon me.
If I did not know better, I would have sworn that he brought twenty of his little buddies along for the attack, snarling, hissing, tearing at my clothes.
He was a frenzy of activity.
And as I was dressed in only a light t shirt, summer riding gloves, and jeans, it was a bit of a cause for concern.
The furry little tornado was doing some real damage.
Picture a large man on a huge black and chrome cruiser dressed in jeans, t shirt, leather gloves, Puttering at maybe 25 miles an hour down a quiet residential street and in the fight of his life with a squirrel and losing.
I grabbed for him with my left hand.
After a few misses, I finally managed to snag his tail with all my strength.
I flung the evil rodent off to the left of the bike, almost running into the right curb as I recoiled from the blow.
That should have done it, you know, and the matter should have ended right there, really should have.
Squirrel could have sailed right into one of the pristinely kept yards and gone about his business, and I could have headed home.
No one would have been the wiser, but this was no ordinary squirrel.
This was not even an ordinary angry squirrel.
This was an evil mutant attack squirrel of death.
Somehow he caught my gloved finger with one of his little hands and with a force of the throw, swung around, and with a resounding thump and an amazing impact he landed squarely on my back and resumed his rather antisocial and extremely distracting activities.
He also managed to take my left glove with him.
The situation not improved, not improved at all.
His attacks were continuing and now I couldn't reach him.
I was startled to say the least.
The combination of the force of the throw, only having one hand, the throttle hand on the handlebars, and my jerking back, unfortunately, put a healthy twist through my right hand and into the throttle.
A healthy twist on the throttle of a Valkyrie can only have one result.
This is what the Valkyrie is made for, and she is very, very good at it.
The rear engine roared.
The front wheel left the pavement.
So here he is now on one wheel, right?
The squirrel screamed in anger.
Valkyrie screamed in ecstasy.
I screamed, and well, I just plain screamed.
Now, picture a large man on a huge black and chrome cruiser dressed in jeans, a slightly squirrel-torn t-shirt, wearing only one leather glove and roaring at about 50 miles an hour or so and rapidly accelerating down a quiet residential street on one wheel with a demonic squirrel of death on his back.
The man and the squirrel are both screaming bloody murder at this point.
With the sudden acceleration, I was forced to put my other hand on the handlebars and try and get control of the bike.
This was leaving the mutant squirrel to his own devices.
But I didn't really want to crash into somebody's tree house or parked car.
Also, I had not yet figured out how to release the throttle.
My brain was simply overloaded at the moment.
I did manage to mash the brake down, but that had very little effect against the massive power of the big cruiser.
Now, about this time, the squirrel decided that I was not paying sufficient attention to this very serious battle.
Maybe he was an evil mutant Nazi attack squirrel of death.
Anyway, he came around my neck and got inside my full face helmet with me.
As the faceplate closed partway, he began hissing in my face.
I'm quite sure my screaming changed intensity.
It had a little effect, however, on the squirrel.
The RPMs on the dragon maxed out since I was not bothering with shifting at the moment.
So her front end started to drop.
Now picture the large man on a huge buck and chrome cruiser dressed in jeans, a very raggedly torn t shirt, wearing only one leather glove, now going about 80 miles an hour on one wheel with a large puffy squirrel's neck, its tail sticking out of the mostly closed full-face helmet.
Well, by now the screams are probably getting a little hoarse.
Finally, I got the upper hand.
I managed to grab his tail again, pulled him out of my helmet, and slung him to the left as hard as I could.
This time it worked, sort of spectacularly sort of, so to speak.
Picture a new scene.
You're a cop.
You and your partner have pulled off on a quiet residential street and parked with your windows down to do some paperwork.
Yeah, it happens.
Now suddenly a large man on a huge black and chrome cruiser dressed in jeans, torn t-shirt flapping in the breeze, wearing only one leather glove, moving at about 80 miles an hour now on one wheel, and screaming bloody murder roars by with all of his strength throwing a live squirrel grenade directly into the police car.
I heard screams, but they weren't mine.
I managed to get the motorcycle under control and dropped the front wheel to the ground.
I then used maximum braking and skidded to a stop in a cloud of tire smoke at the stop sign of a busy cross street.
I would have returned to fess up and to get my glove back.
I really would have really except for two things.
First, the cops did not seem interested or the slight bit concerned about me at the moment.
You see, when I look back, the doors on both sides of the patrol car were flung wide open.
The cop on the passenger side was on his back, doing a crab walk into somebody's front yard, quickly moving away from the car.
The cop, who had not been in the driver's seat, was now standing in the street, aiming a riot shotgun at his own police car.
So the cops were not interested in me.
They often insist to, quote, let the professionals handle it, end quote.
Anyway, that was one thing.
The other, well, I could see shredded and flying pieces of foam and upholstery in the back seat, but I could also swear, I could swear I saw that squirrel in the back window shaking his little fist at me.
This is one dangerous squirrel.
Now he has a patrol car, a somewhat shredded patrol car.
But it was all his.
I took a deep breath, turned on my turn signal, made a gentle turn off on Bryce Street, and sedately left the neighborhood.
I decided it was best to buy myself a new pair of gloves.
There's a lot of XM radios and trucks out there, baby.
unidentified
Oh, it's the only way to go.
Only way to go.
Hey, I've been driving for about 10 years, and I was told when I first got out here that the military ships secret loads by just, you know, regular trucks, because if you have, like, an Army truck going down the road, that cause a lot of absolutely makes sense, sir.
When I got here, we had one stoplight, and that was the excitement in town.
And now it's just, it's beyond all reason.
I don't know what accounts for it.
Well, I guess the conventional wisdom is it's, you know, people from Las Vegas getting tired of the big city life and just looking over here and saying, woohoo, what a nice place to live, which it is.
And then Californians looking at this and saying, cool place to retire, low taxes and just really nice.
So whatever it is, it's gone berserk.
It is strange to watch.
I mean, I'm not kidding.
When I moved here, it was one little stoplight.
That was about it.
We had a store that didn't have everything.
And when you wanted most things, you had to go over the hill to Las Vegas.
I don't know if it's an angelic-like person, I guess, but it's not an angel unless she suddenly disappeared or something.
But there are still, you know, it's not talked about very much, but there are still a lot of good people in the world.
It's just that you don't hear about them.
It's the nature of the media.
I admit that.
I mean, we read bad stories.
That's what makes the media bad, scary, violent stories.
That's what makes it.
And the good stories don't make it.
If somebody's helped across the street or carried to the hospital or whatever it is, that never makes the news.
But there's still a lot of it that goes on.
And to keep proper perspective as you listen to the news, you've got to know that.
And you've got to fit that into the equation of what you're hearing as you get more and more depressed about the stalking and the killing and the death and the rest of what comes on the news most of the time.
You just got to remember the good news doesn't get there.
And it's for a good reason.
Because it's the norm.
And we report on abynormal things.
First time caller line, you're on the air.
unidentified
Well, speaking of media art, this is Mark from your old stomping grounds of Media, Pennsylvania.
In the modern day and age of the way elections run in America, these men or women are shredded.
They are shredded.
And so, you know, not only do they have to raise a whole lot of money for the privilege of being publicly shredded, but then if they achieve office, they continue to get shredded.
And so I've got to be honest with you.
I have no idea what motivates a man or woman.
It must be incredible patriotism or something to volunteer for such cruel and unusual punishment.
unidentified
I also can't imagine the pressure, but backing away from that for a moment, what do you see as the top two or three priorities that we need right now in our country?
Well, I think we need to find a way out of what we face, and that's terrorism.
We're going to be kind of talking about that with my upcoming guest, you know, Howard Bloom.
Obviously, the biggest thing we face right now in America is the threat of terrorism.
He's going to talk, you know, now here we go back to the scary stuff, right?
About the possibility of, for example, Al-Qaeda getting a nuclear submarine.
I just read a really cool book about exactly this topic.
It's one of the things he's going to talk about.
The book I read is called Barracuda 945, Patrick Robinson.
And, baby, it's dead on.
Dead on.
It's written mostly from the perspective of the terrorists themselves, not the U.S., but the terrorists.
And, in fact, they are a group led by...
Led by an American who defected, and they get hold of a nuclear submarine, and the results are awful.
As you can imagine.
And nuclear submarines have the ability not to be.
If they don't want to be found, you cannot find a nuclear submarine.
If you run a modern nuclear submarine below a certain speed, there's nothing on God's green earth that can locate you, including Psis and all the rest of it.
And so one can't even imagine a terror as big As a submarine perhaps purchased from the Russians, say through the Chinese, that would be possible and then used to launch missiles against American interests.
Howard Bloom's going to be talking about this a little bit, but if you want to read a dramatic and very good book about that possibility, which is kind of written from a perspective, you wouldn't imagine that from our point of view, the bad guys perspective, I guess from anybody's rational point of view, killing civilians is not rational, right?
I'm going to do corner runs and quite a few other interesting things.
I was on my way back from a run one day.
Beautiful day, beautiful day.
I just happen to hit this one open area.
Beautiful blue sky.
I look up and you can see the campus are the contrails.
Yeah, we wonder.
But you know, they were in the satin of shape, and you know how your windshield wipers go back and forth and easily that little streak across your window.
Well, I suppose that could it's like when it's 66.6 degrees inside or outside, right?
Even if they're not chemtrails, even if they're contrails, the traditional leave-ins of a jet, right, as it passes through and disturbs the air up there.
There was a picture of the American Southeast that I had posted up on the website that was absolutely astounding.
And even if you don't think there is any chem in the trail part of contrails, there can be no question but the contrails themselves contribute to the weird changing weather that we're having.
Don't you think that's true?
I mean, where there was a cloudless sky, you now have clouds or spread contrails in about two-thirds of the sky.
There's no way, just no way that could not affect temperatures and perhaps weather patterns and the rest of it.
Ah, but we live in strange times.
unidentified
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Be it sight, sound, smell, or touch, the something inside that we need so much.
The sight of the touch or the scent of the sand, or the strength of an oak roots deep in the ground.
The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing.
To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing.
All these things in our memories.
And they used them to count us To die Yeah
Right, right past your soul Take this place On this trip Just for me Run Take a free walk Get my heart I'm gonna sing It's for
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From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
Coming up is a very bright guy, very bright Howard Bloom.
You may have heard him before on this program.
He's almost single-handedly carved out a couple of new fields, paleopsychology and mass behavior.
His book is Global Brain, the Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang To the 21st century.
And as you know, I've got a very great deal of interest in the global brain in the mass mind and its powers.
Anyway, his next goal is to establish a field he calls, I believe, omnuology.
What it looks like, omnomology, or something, he'll correct me.
Bloom's cross-disciplinary theories trace crowd patterns from the precipitation of the first protons in the Big Bang to future trends in the life of humankind.
For Bloom, mass behavior, paleopsychology, and omnomology, is it?
I don't know.
Are fields that encompass nearly everything man can possibly know, testing his theories of mass emotion in the brutal lab of reality.
Like a reality TV show, Bloom helped shape the careers of many famous musicians.
Did you know that?
He also wrote position papers for two winning political candidates, helped Sony establish its software beachhead here in the U.S., and helped turn Disney from an antique to a major player in the film world in the late 20th century.
Wow.
He helped guide Warner Brothers, CBS, and Paramount into new territory.
From each of these experiences, Bloom melted new scientific insights, insights that have given his scientific theories a remarkable depth.
And again, the title of his book is Global Brain, the Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century.
Hey, and the producer of Coast to Coast AM, Lisa Lyon, talked to Howard, and then she talked to me, and she said, all right, we'd like to have Howard on.
And she began to sort of go off on a conversation regarding, in the same breath, Osama bin Laden and Michael Jackson.
And from anybody else, I would have had to have talked to the guests first.
Howard, no, he's a bright guy.
He's going to know what he's talking about.
But I couldn't in a million years imagine what the two would have in common in the context of any discussion I could even imagine.
And the biggest mass behavior battle of our time is a battle between two cultures.
It's been called, in fact, a clash of civilizations, not just by Samuel Huntington, the Harvard expert, but it's been called that by a guy named Osama bin Laden.
And it is a clash, in his opinion, a cranal clash.
He says it's a religious clash.
It's a clash between, well, as I said, two civilizations.
Michael Jackson, to me, represents one civilization, although that may seem like a peculiar choice, but you know, you mentioned that I've worked with rock stars.
He and I stood next to each other at a billiard table in the pool house behind Marlon's house when they were working on the album jacket for the Victory Tour album.
And Michael and I stood there next to each other as Michael began to open the first of five portfolios that have been brought in from major artists by CBS's art director.
When Michael opened the first portfolio just far enough to see a small corner of the page, you could feel in his body language, you could feel that infinities were going off in his mind.
This man was seeing what William Blake called on us to do, to see the world in a grain of sand, the universe, in a flower.
That was happening in Michael's mind, and you could feel it.
And Michael became almost orgasmic at the sight of the first few square inches.
Then he peeled back the page a little bit further and saw the next few square inches.
And the sounds coming out of him were ecstatic.
They were, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
And I have never, ever, ever seen that quality of appreciation, that quality of wonder, or anything even touching it in another human being.
Now, that is a gift.
And Michael has an enormous sense of obligation.
I got a call one afternoon saying, in New York, my office was on 55th and Lexington Avenue.
I got a call saying, you've got to be out here in California tonight by 11 o'clock.
Michael has just decided to cancel his tour, and you're the only person he will listen to.
You've got to talk him out of it.
When I went into the van, you know, these trailers that are basically set up to be dressing rooms at the lot where the guys had been practicing their tour.
Michael was sitting at the very end in the sort of throne, the power position.
I was sitting directly diagonal to him.
And Michael explained why he was going to cancel his tour.
He was going to cancel it because his oldest brother had just come down with a bone splint in his knee.
And his oldest brother, Jackie, has always handled all the dancing for the Jacksons and is, in Michael's opinion, the best dancer that he knows.
Michael had spent a year, he had hired 110 of the brightest people in show business.
He had put them all on contracts that guaranteed nondisclosure.
In other words, they weren't allowed to talk about a thing that they were doing.
In fact, legally, I'm not allowed to talk about any of the stuff that I'm talking about.
I had to sign one of these agreements, too.
But the fact is, he had been working on a tour that was designed to create in the kids who follow him the same kind of just overwhelming astonishment that he feels when he looks at a page in a portfolio by an interesting artist.
And his obligation, and you could feel, I don't know exactly how to explain this, you could feel Michael's audience in his chest.
You could feel tens of millions of kids in his chest.
And there was no way, Art, no way in hell that he was ever, ever, ever going to let anyone disappoint those kids.
There was no way he was going to let anybody cheat them.
And remember, this is a limited time that I was close to Michael.
But my sense of things is that we had a person who was remarkably down to earth, remarkably caring about other people, and who felt that he owed his audience every single surprise in the world.
And as a consequence, at that point, I think Michael was putting out the stories about, remember the stories about the hyperbaric chamber he was sleeping in at night, his buying the elephant man, and all kinds of strange things.
I think Michael was doing these things, frankly, to keep his audience on his toes, to keep his audience surprised.
I think that things really got out of hand because back in 1986, Michael was the most powerful person in the record industry, and he represented more power than almost anybody else in entertainment.
He had sold 36 million albums.
The previous biggest selling performer of all time had only sold 14 million.
Are you suggesting that Michael started by acting strangely for publicity or image reasons and then slipped from acting strangely into that being his reality?
I think that in all probability, I don't know what's going on with Michael's face.
And it horrifies me when I see what's happened to Michael's face since the days when I knew him.
But I do know that there are people around him who are encouraging him.
People Who work the way that the people around him work usually try to get their stars hooked on drugs and very, very isolated from reality.
And they isolate them from reality by surrounding them.
They say, look, your accountant, the guy that you've trusted for the last 20 years, he was good enough for you when you were a star.
Now you're a megastar.
Now you need a megastar accountant.
And they put an accountant in place.
They put a lawyer in place who's their lawyer.
They put a whole team in place who are their teams.
So that the people who want to control a person like Michael Jackson, if they want him to believe that the sky is green or the sky is orange, they never have to even walk into the room and say directly to Michael the sky is orange.
Yeah, Howard, we hear stories about people like Michael Jackson, and I don't know this to be true of him, but certainly many others, you know, big celebrities who have obviously made gazillions of dollars, and you're shocked because you hear they're broke.
They're surrounded with so many people, again, who will tell them that the sky is orange that the person who's doing the manipulation will never have to say it himself.
And they are told so many of those lies that it defies belief.
They are kept basically locked up in a hotel room.
They are told that if you go out in public, this is something Michael believed and it's quite true.
Michael told me, look, the crowds out there, we were about to go to an NAACP event that I had set up.
We were traveling in the van.
There was a huge crowd waiting outside.
Michael said, the crowd out there doesn't understand something.
They don't understand that they love me, and because they love me, they would like to touch me.
And I would like them to touch me and be able to touch every single one of them because I love them too.
But a human being is no stronger than a strand of spaghetti that's been vastly overcooked.
When a lot of people go snatching for you simultaneously, they can literally tear you apart.
I tell you, Howard, people who think that they want to be really famous ought to think 25 times and know the real truth of the life of people like Michael Jackson and anybody else in that class of fame.
Well, Michael appreciates it because he feels he's been given a gift by God and that he's been given that gift so that he can give that gift in turn to everybody else who ever sees him, everybody else he can ever touch.
But the difficulty, as you just said, is that a manipulator will take advantage of the fact that he's a prisoner and will use that fact to totally separate Michael from any sort of reality, to Take any tendencies.
In other people's cases, the managers who do this would get you involved with heroin.
They would get you involved with cocaine.
They would make sure that the most attractive women you've ever seen come marching into your hotel room day after day, and that there are security guards outside your hotel room to make sure that you don't go out and that you are told that those security guards are there to protect you.
Well, so where in God's name, poor choice of words, where in the universe does Osama bin Laden fit in the context of the discussion that we've had so far?
He wants nothing but to save you from what he says is the hell you've fallen into.
You've been deceived, he says.
He says you've been deceived by every leader you've ever had.
It is sad to say, he says, that you are the worst civilization that ever existed on the face of this earth.
And your leaders have deceived you into thinking that words like freedom and democracy and human rights and women's rights and gay rights are important.
But these are good things.
These are not good things.
Any country that dares make up its own Constitution, any country that dares make up its own laws, he says, is enslaving all of its citizens to Satan.
But, you know, I do like the ability to speak with you on a wide variety of topics, which is what we've always done.
And I do like the fact that we've been able to talk, I mean, that you were able to talk to Patrick Robertson about the subs that Islam may have, and that you can talk to.
You remember we had somebody on the show, or maybe it was a caller, who said, hey, you remember how the CIA for many years underestimated the ability in many ways of the former Soviet Union?
I mean, it's pretty well generally admitted right now that occurred.
Even though 9-11, of course, very much occurred, that was X number of men who gave their lives.
And since then, what do we really know about Al-Qaeda?
What do we know about them?
How big they are, anything else?
You know, we've gone to Afghanistan and blasted a lot of them into martyrdom, and we have arrested them all over the world.
And about Osama bin Laden and about al-Qaeda, we really don't know one hell of a lot about them.
And I mean, Howard, how many al-Qaeda do you think still exist out there?
Well, 9-11 is referred to as the Blessed Day of New York.
It is referred to as the Blessed Day of the Great Victory.
Within two weeks of the time that the towers went down, there were full-color posters selling all over the Islamic world of Osama and behind him all kinds of pictures of the towers falling.
In Nigeria, which we don't think of as an Islamic country, but the upper six states of Nigeria are all Islamic.
And by the way, have had terrible brawls, a lot of people, hundreds of people killed in battles between Christians and Muslims.
In that country, just one poster seller said he had people driving to his place from 40 miles around to buy posters.
There were Osama toys circulating in the Islamic community.
Osama has become the Saladin, you know, the great heroic figure.
And when you're a superstar, people use you as an icon.
When people use you as an icon, not only do you stand for things that are vitally important in their lives, but you're a role model.
And Osama as a role model is the most compelling role model probably in the Islamic world in our entire lifetime.
And remember, our lifetimes include the Ayatollah Khomeini, who tossed over the government of Iran and took it over, and was himself a tremendous icon to Osama.
And our press doesn't report accurately what's going on.
Our press does not.
When we say, for example, remember there was a story about three months ago about the fact that Osama had put a price on the head of the head of the United Nations, Kofi Annan and Paul Bremer.
Well, Osama does not make one paragraph soundbite speeches.
Osama makes two hour long speeches, extraordinary speeches.
And another basic message, the message about putting gold on the head of these guys was one paragraph long.
The message that the rest of the paragraphs really tried to drive home was, you, if you are a student anywhere in this world, and if you believe in Islam.
And if you want to purify and save this world, drop your studies, no matter where you are, and come to Iraq and fight the jihad, fight the great global war between unbelief and belief.
What does that mean?
Unbelief and belief.
It means that either you believe in Islam or you're either slated for extermination or you're slated for conversion, ideally for conversion.
After all, our goal is to save you if we're followers of Osama.
Our goal is not to exterminate you, to liberate you.
There is no way to judge because Al-Qaeda is running an entirely new form of war.
Al-Qaeda has invented a new kind of war.
Al-Qaeda has invented a pneumatic form of warfare that can drift like a wind through cities like Hamburg, like New York, like Los Angeles, like Toronto, even like the the major cities of the Far East.
A friend of mine came back from Bangladesh last week.
He'd spent a month there.
He's from Bangladesh, and he's Islamic.
He says, no matter what you think of George Bush, you've got to realize that over in Bangladesh right now, when people are talking about hitting somebody hard and never quitting, they are saying hit them like George Bush.
That means that George Bush, who's a candidate I don't personally support, but George Bush is winning not just respect in the Islamic community, he's driving a message home that he can win and Osama may not be able to win.
I mean, if we're not going to convert, and quite clearly we are not going to convert, then we have to be exterminated.
And so if George Bush, you believe, obviously, that George Bush understands, understands what you have just explained.
And the moment you understand that, then there's only one conclusion you can come to, and that's that you must exterminate your enemy before they exterminate you, the good old classic self-defense posture.
That's what apparently he has effectively done in Afghanistan.
Now, here's another little story from another one of my Islamic friends.
In the first two weeks after 9-11, one of my Islamic friends would not dare open his mouth about how he felt in the Islamic community because there was a sense of secret joy pulsing through the upper middle class, professional Islamic community here in New York City.
And if he showed that he did not share this joy, he was afraid of being deemed un-Islamic.
But as soon as we hit Afghanistan, all of a sudden he was able to open his mouth.
All of a sudden, he was able to talk.
Force, the use of force directly against al-Qaeda, had given him a freedom to express his point of view.
Iraq is an entirely different situation.
I cannot tell.
In fact, I need to talk to him again to find out to what extent Iraq is helping us.
My impression from what he said is that Iraq is helping us, but Iraq is a tricky situation.
It's a tricky situation because we've made it the world's first humanitarian war.
Let me give you an example of what I mean by that.
Back in 150 years ago, there was a war very similar to the Iraq War.
It was a small, localized war.
It was called the Crimean War.
650,000 people died in that war.
In the Iraq War so far, if you include all the civilians and the highest, and if you include the highest estimate of civilians killed, and if you include the 1,100 Americans killed, that's a total of approximately 15,000 people who have been killed.
15,000 people compared to 650,000 people, that means that we've saved basically the equivalent of somewhere in the neighborhood of 635,000 lives over what previous wars would have cost.
Now, can we make that kind of, quote, humanitarian war, and no war is humanitarian, but can we make that kind of quote humanitarian war and still have an impact on militant Islam?
There are many seemingly valid claims that there are suitcase bombs out there.
And one of the editors of a Pakistani newspaper who has allegedly interviewed Osama quite a few times had a long conversation with Aman Zawahiri with Osama's Lieutenant, his right-hand man.
Well, because I'm not an expert on the suitcase nukes, I can't absolutely tell you this.
And something else to be aware of: the Pakistani editor who made this claim is somewhat questionable.
He's made a lot of claims that seem a little bit too far off base.
So we don't know about the suitcase nukes, but we do know that Islam does have nukes, that it is keeping in good repair, that it's cranking out constantly.
Patrick Robinson wrote a book that I just read called Barracuda 945.
It's about a nuclear submarine getting into the hands of El Con.
Right.
And it's an incredible story, And it just resonated when I saw what you were going to talk about tonight.
Now, if you know a lot about submarine warfare, you know that a nuclear submarine would be particularly frightful because going at slower speeds, there's nothing that can detect them.
Nothing.
But you weren't postulating a nuke, were you?
You were postulating perhaps a diesel or something?
Back in 1994, DCN, which is a state government-owned shipping yard that makes all of the naval vessels for the French Navy and has made them, by the way, it was owned until recently entirely by the French Navy.
It's been spun off as a semi-detached company in order to make some extra profit.
You know that the French will do everything in their power to outdo the Brits and to outdo the Americans in every single weapon system we've got.
They take huge pride in this.
And they have developed this super stealth sub.
It's called the Augusta 90B.
Its acoustic signature is absolutely minimized.
Its electromagnetic Signature is absolutely minimized, and its thermal signature is absolutely minimized.
Yes, it operates on diesel partly.
It operates partly on diesel propulsion system.
But that diesel propulsion system is double suspended.
It's got the equivalent of the suspension system in your car so that the vibration Of the diesel engines doesn't make it to the hull.
Howard, Howard just told us something that's probably the scariest thing I've ever heard.
Now, we have not yet asked if they actually have one of these submarines, but if they do, then America's potentially in really serious trouble.
From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
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And just before we get back to the subs, Howard, there is something that I want to bring up with you, and I'm in a big tangle with these 9-11 conspiracy people, and they ask questions like this.
Hey, Art, what's wrong with you?
Do you really think that 10 people with a knife could have done this?
If so, I've got two bridges for you.
Well, so, you know, there is this group out there right now, Howard, that thinks that people within the United States government did this to themselves, that this is all a great conspiracy orchestrated from within the dark center of the New World Order or something like that.
Every country that has ever become that arrogant, every superpower that has ever become that arrogant has fallen.
And it's fallen at the hands of miserable little barbarians that it took for granted as subhumans all of its life.
And one of the greatest examples of that is the Eastern and Western Roman Empire, all of whose territory was snatched by a bunch of desert fleas who couldn't possibly do a thing because these guys only rode camels and they lived in tents.
And guess who they were?
They were the Moslems who took over almost all the known world between 620 and roughly 1500.
All right, well, I just wanted to get that out of the way.
All right, so look, the submarines, my God, that's such an incredibly frightening prospect that there would exist a submarine that could do this in the hands of the French who the French.
So are you suggesting that Al-Qaqaeda may already have one or they're bargaining for one or where are we here?
I mean, there are quite a few more, but there are two of them in Islamic hands.
The first one was driven from Cherbourg Harbor over to Pakistan by the crew that I mentioned before, whose captain said that these were designed or were purchased specifically for their nuclear capabilities.
The second one was built under the following conditions.
The Pakistanis made a deal with DCN, the French company, and they said, we'll buy the first submarine from you, but you have to teach us and our technicians how to build an entire shipyard, a next-generation shipyard, that is capable of building submarine number two and number three.
So how in the world does Osama fit into this picture?
Well, the real question here is, is Osama using Prevez Musharraf as a puppet, or is Prevez Musharraf using Osama bin Laden as a puppet?
Yosef Badansky, who is one of the experts on this subject, says that it's Prevez Musharraf who is using Osama as a puppet, that it's in Pervez Musharraf, the head of Pakistan's interest, the military dictator's interest, to make sure that Osama stays on the loose and that he can continually chase Osama.
Because as long as he continues chasing Osama, we do things like the things we've done over the last six months.
Six months ago, we gave him permission to launch the first mid-range ballistic Islamic missile, a missile or with a distance of 1,800 miles, a range of 1,800 miles.
Two months later, we gave him permission to launch one of his 930-mile range ballistic missiles, presumably with much more advanced targeting and guidance capabilities.
We've also given him permission not only to build these subs himself, but to do it with no coverage.
Okay, now you, if you were Osama and you had a Pervez Musharraf to whom the United States owed favor after favor after favor, how long would you keep Pervez in power?
For example, if there were a third submarine of this sort being built entirely by Pakistanis in a next-generation Pakistani shipyard, and you're Osama, and remember, one of the smarts you have, one of your advantages is that you, Osama, always work in multiples.
You always work with redundancy.
You used four planes to get at the world's slander.
Not one, not two, not three, but four.
So that if one went down or two went down, it didn't matter.
Back when I was writing Global Brain and researching it in 1998, 1999, Pakistan was on the verge of falling into Osama's hands already.
Remember that way, way back in the good old days, around 1991 or so, there were riots in the streets of one country over the very title of a book called The Satanic Verses by Salman Rushdie.
And those riots went on for four days and four nights until finally the man we thought of as the most extremist militant Muslim on the face of the planet, the Ayatollah Khomeini, was shamed into putting out a fatwa on the head of the author.
Do you know where the crowds were that were doing those riots that finally shamed the Ayatollah into this act, putting a price on the head of Salman Rushdie?
But, Howard, if the nation of Pakistan effectively were co-opted, let's say that occurred.
Right.
And a nuclear weapon was used against any American interest anywhere, America would immediately retaliate with just absolute knowledge about a state that had sponsored this.
So the retaliation from America would be Pakistan off the map, right?
You would think that it would make it all not happen that way.
That instead of causing us to retaliate against Pakistan, there would be some third party and some fishy way that they got it that wouldn't be as direct as you're suggesting.
In basic biology, you can have battles between two reproductive strategies.
One reproductive strategy is produce as many kids as you can as fast as you can and put as little investment into those kids as possible.
The other reproductive strategy is have as few kids as you can and put as much investment into each kid as you can.
These are called R and K strategies in population biology.
Well, you are watching one of the great experiments in population biology unfold before your very eyes on this planet, because Osama says outright, here's why I can beat you.
I can beat you because you turn your women into whores and prostitutes.
You let them show their faces and their legs on the street.
I know how to honor women.
One honors women by keeping them at home.
One honors women by keeping them pregnant.
And I, I will have seven children per wife and I can have four wives.
And if I'm like my father, I can swap wives so I can have between 11 and 20 wives.
I can afford to have so many children that I can outreduce you to the nth degree.
And you, because of the sinful way you treat women, because you use sex for pleasure and I use sex for procreation.
You know, that was another important thing you said earlier, that they virtually picked only one paragraph out of a couple of hours of what he said.
You're absolutely correct about that.
We don't have space in the American media for this, but even, you know, after you go, okay, fine, CNN and the networks don't report on the rest of the speech so that we might understand where his head is.
Well, actually, the Atlantic Monthly has been doing a superb job within the limits of its capacities of covering this, and it's been covering it issue after issue.
The New York Times Sunday magazine has made a couple two-stabs at it.
But frankly, these speeches are long.
I can read you a batch, I mean, material from one of his speeches.
If you really believe that, then, all right, so they're going to take, they would then take those actions.
They would get hold of us if they could.
They would fire nuclear weapons at us.
They would allow the destruction of Pakistan, maybe other countries.
But, you know, for this, the kind of thing that you're describing, and I guess I'm not willing to believe that most Pakistanis, I'm not talking of the radicalized now, but most, for example, Pakistanis would be unwilling to risk the prospect of annihilation.
And while I understand that the radicalized would, I don't think I yet believe that the masses would.
Well, I would think that the first priority of Osama would be to eliminate those infidels that he finds around him at home, wherever home happens to be.
Worked very closely with us in 1979 and We also worked with the PLA, the Chinese People's Liberation Army.
We all worked together on a joint project.
It was to put together an army of people from 35 countries, 50,000 men, who we would pretend were Afghan freedom fighters.
And we trained them in the use of things like Stinger missiles.
And one of the people that we recruited, we recruited idealists from all over the Islamic world.
And one of the idealists that we recruited straight out of an engineering program in a Saudi university was named Osama bin Laden.
So the ISI and the Pakistani military, it's hard to tell who has the greatest number of followers, Hervez Musharraf or Osama bin Laden.
However, if you're Osama and I tell you be patient and I say you have a choice, you can be patient, wait another 18 months, and I'll give you submarine number three.
Or you can take the two submarines and run with them immediately.
That would be the choice you'd be up against.
Let me give you another historical example.
Back in the 1930s, there was a country that was so staunchly democratic that it was ridiculous.
In the days of the Roaring 20s and jazz, there were flappers in this country, and they were having wild dances with men in the middle of the night.
It was a very, very American-style scene.
And then, but the military wasn't too fond of this.
The military had an entirely different approach to how this country should be handled.
A very disciplined, very structured, and very dangerous approach, an approach that really wanted to take on enemies.
The military in this country, within the period of a couple of weeks, assassinated approximately seven key people in the government and took over.
The country's called Japan.
And that country then went to take over as much as it could of China and went to war with us.
Well, this is something, you know, I read this is a very hard one to say because first, let's go back to the question of what would I do about it.
We claim that we know where these, that is, the people in the government that I've been in touch with claim, oh, we know exactly where these things are.
We know exactly what to do about them.
We've been tracking them for years.
So if we've been tracking them for years, let's get rid of them.
I think many times the words of Howard Bloom are intended or land as sort of a general bashing of all Islamics.
Well, it ain't true.
Not even by his own words.
I mean, if you listen to the words he has said himself, even regarding Pakistan, it was about 50-50, and that would be a pretty dire prediction which he made at that, but certainly not of all of Islam.
However, I don't think any of you can deny that there are people out there so radicalized and so prepared to die for what they believe that they will kill us en masse.
They have decided to commit genocide against us.
And if they have the ability, if they have the weapon, they will use it.
Now, before 9-11, there were a couple of what are called liberal Islamic groups on the Internet.
But there were no names given for anyone on the groups.
They did not dare give their names.
Since 9-11, at least one group, and that's the Free Islamic Coalition Against Terrorism, has finally given the names of some of its personnel.
There's another one that a friend of mine named Muna Oranis, who is Islamic and who is the former Minister of Education for Malaysia, has told me about.
And indeed, when I went up on its website, it also gave the names of some of its people.
So yes, via the Afghan war, we have freed a few Islamic voices to get out from under this repression.
Well, is there any good assessment of the size and capability of al-Qaeda?
How much, I mean, that's one thing that through the entire Cold War we apparently suffered from, overestimating why ever it occurred, the capability of the Soviet Union.
Charles Lindbergh was taken over to Germany in roughly 1935 and shown a whole bunch of aircraft which were prototypes, but was told that the hangars were filled with them.
And America was encouraged via Lindbergh to overassess German capabilities so that we would lay low when Germany took over Czechoslovakia.
And it is, of course, in their interest for there to be a bad guy, for there to be a need to defend ourselves and build lots of big machinery and stuff to get that job done that can sail through windows and explode, all of that sort of thing.
They're very interested in that.
So are we overestimating al-Qaeda?
But then, of course, the other side of the argument is, look what they did just do.
So somewhere in there, I need to have, and the American people need to have a true understanding of what the capabilities are.
Surprise means absolutely befuddling the perceptions of your enemy.
One of the things that Julius Caesar would have told you is, if you are small, look big.
And if you are big, look small.
Always keep them confused.
It is impossible to tell how many members and potential members there are of a group that operates in two ways.
First of all, it filters through the cities of the West.
It thrives in the cities of the West.
After all, it lives off Western technology.
Without the Internet, there would be no Al-Qaeda.
Al-Qaeda literally means the equivalent of a computer database.
Without what's called stenographic coding on computer screens, there would be no al-Qaeda.
Without websites, there would be no al-Qaeda.
I call al-Qaeda the world's first parallel distributed conspiracy, which means you don't even need coordination in al-Qaeda.
The information is given out so publicly that a lot of groups operating totally independently can work toward the same end because they all share the same goals.
Take a look, for example, at one of our areas of vulnerability, and that is our sonar.
When I talk to my friends in government and they get hushed by the people above them, the people above them say, oh, we know all about those subs.
Oh, we have all kinds of means of keeping track of those subs.
Well, that's not what the Navy says on its website about our sonar.
but more important, what it says basically is that our sonar is dependent right now on what's called passive surveillance towed array sonar systems.
And passive systems, according to the Navy, is not able to detect stealth subs.
And here's a specific quote from a Navy website.
The submarines prowling the world's oceans today are much quieter and more deadly than ever before.
An undetected enemy submarine is an underwater terrorist threatening any surface ship or coastline within its range.
Then it goes on to say that its current sonar, passive sonar, is incapable of detecting these things until they're within a few feet of you.
They are lobbying for something called active sonar arrays, but those active sonar arrays are apparently not yet online.
However, and that's about as much information as you'll find the Navy publishing.
But here's what you'll find on a site called IslamOnline.com.
It says that CERTAS is based in Virginia, CERTAS, remember that's this advanced sonar system that we've got.
CERTAS, it's not even good enough.
Nonetheless, the site says CERTAS is based in Virginia, USA.
It regularly operates from ports in Scotland, Spain, Japan, Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, and California.
In addition to CERTAS, the Army has remote-controlled underwater vehicles equipped with advanced sensors that were designed for Navy SEALs and that function to explore shallow waters specifically in the Yellow Sea and in Southeast Asia and the Persian Gulf.
These are, of course, all areas where the submarines we're talking about are able to, or where they have to start their mission.
Now, why would a public Islamic site have more information on our sonar and its weaknesses, including passive sonar versus active sonar, than our Navy even has available?
And our Navy says that we are totally vulnerable, that we do not have the sonar that we need to detect these things.
Well, here's one answer.
If you've got a parallel distributed conspiracy and if you've got cells going all over the world and they're all basically sinking by keeping track of the same information, then you don't put your information.
You don't hide your information.
You hide it in plain sight.
It's the purloin bletter principle from Edgar Allan Poe.
Put your information out there in plain sight.
Share it with everybody that you can.
And those who sympathize with you will use that information to be your ally.
Now, remember, back in 1935 and 1936, every time the German correspondent for the London Times tried to send in a story about what was really going on, his editor, the editor of the Times of London, one of the most influential papers in the world, said, please stop sending us these reports.
We cannot print them.
We do not want to disturb Mr. Hitler.
And that's the equivalent of what we're doing now.
I sat down with a friend who manages 15 of the top Mideast experts.
You know, that's a very, very good question, Art, because the fear was that if we treat Mr. Hitler reasonably, he will be a reasonable man.
And however, what you're basically implying here is a very, very interesting insight.
And that is, under the superficial disguise of saying Hitler is a reasonable man, so let's deal with him reasonably, there was an irrational fear that knew that Hitler was highly dangerous.
But it was an irrational fear that nobody was busy, but that nobody was willing to face up to.
And we've got the same thing going on in the United States.
Now, we have it with a great deal of encouragement.
You know, that I've been hit by Islamic pressure groups since 1991 to keep me out of print.
And you look here afraid of offending groups who they really have more.
Again, your analogy, your implied insight on Hitler was so on target I can't believe it.
Because in essence, the first time that a publication was attacked because of something that I had in print was 1991.
And it was a publication owned by Bob Guccione Sr., who had a lot of chutzpah.
This is a man who went up against the CIA over and over and over again.
But as soon as Islamic groups walked into his office, he was terrified.
He was terrified of having his throat slit.
He was terrified of being bombed.
He was terrified of being subjected to the same kind of firebombings that occurred in England because of the Salman Rushdie book.
And when people are terrified, they keep their mouths shut.
But all the information we're talking about, about the Augusta 90B, it's available on the DCN website.
That is the website of the French military supplier that has helped build these shipyards.
It's available on Defense Journal, which is a Pakistani publication of the Pakistani defense industry.
It is available all over the place, as I said, except for the American media.
And there are other details that you can find all over the place, except in the American Media.
Now, think for a second.
When the captain of the crew that tests out all of these submarines, that is these stealth submarines, said that they were purchased specifically for their nuclear capabilities, their second strike deterrence capabilities.
What enemy with nuclear weapons was he talking about?
He was talking specifically about India, which is Pakistan's biggest enemy.
I suppose so, but you're going to tell me that's just well I'm going to tell you something about the range of the ships, which is rather unlikely, because the distance from Karachi, the main port of Pakistan, to the Indian border is approximately 110 miles.
Or if you wanted to simply walk down the beach and get to the end of Pakistan, you could take one more step and you'd be in India.
So what sort of range do you think you'd need for your subs?
But again, if you're Osama and you manage to gain control of these subs, why don't you simply take them out to the middle of the Atlantic or the Pacific Ocean to some nice deep trench, keep them there for 30 days without moving a bit so that there's no way of detecting them.
And then when you need them, bring them out of hiding.
You've still got an extra 30 days to go underwater without coming up through air.
I don't know whether there would be a nuclear response, but it would certainly, if we were talking about a nation that worked with the same kind of logic we do, like the Soviet Union, then we would have deterrent capabilities.
But if you're not deterred by losing a quarter of your population, there's no deterrence anymore.
Remember, the Islamic community, according to our demographers, is 1.2 billion people.
The Islamic community, according to Islamic demographers, is 2 billion people.
Losing a quarter of your population would bring the Islamic population down to 1.5 billion people?
Now, would anybody sane be willing to allow the deaths of 500 million people?
And his spiritual grandfather, sort of the Ayatollah Khomeini, said Islam has been forced to annihilate many a tribe because it threatened to pollute Islam.
And of course, today, the definition of what a tribe is is much bigger than it was, not in 1979 when the Ayatollah made that statement, but that it was back in the days of Muhammad.
But even then, tribes for Muhammad meant eliminating entire empires.
And in fact, in the Quran, it says that the fate for people like you and me is that we shall be roasted to a crisp on a spit over an open flame until our flesh turns black and falls off.
It says that we need to feel that pain in every single cell of our skin until we scream and scream and scream.
And then when our skin falls off, Art, here's the real part.
When the skin falls off, we shall be given a new skin so that we can feel the same pain all over again.
And so on and so forth until eternity.
Now, again, if you're Osama and you've been told that the fate of the pagans, the fate of the unbelievers, is to roast eternally like this, what weapon is your ideal weapon?
And by the way, once again, for those of you who want to read and understand more, you need to get his book called Global Brain, The Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century.
We're talking about, I guess, the 21st century part of that right now.
Our enemy.
And they are our enemy.
Al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden.
With an enemy, with war, you want to understand two things right away.
The enemy's capability and their intent.
Probably in that order.
The problem we have here is, of course, that we don't, even Howard doesn't understand their capability.
We don't know how big the enemy is.
We don't really know what they're capable of.
In the intent category, I think Howard has established beyond any question whatsoever that their intent is simple.
Their intent is they want us dead, converted or dead, but certainly converted is not happening, nor is it going to be happening, so it's going to be dead.
They want us dead.
And so that's war.
We understand their intent.
We don't understand their capability, and that, of course, is very dangerous.
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We don't understand their capability, and that, of course, is very dangerous.
Well, superstars and superheroes are the people we model our lives on.
And the kids who, remember, Osama has been a public personality in both the Islamic and the Western world since approximately 1991.
Kids who were five years old and first saw Osama as a major hero are now in their 20s.
And the things that you wanted to be when you were five, and the things you wanted to be when you were 10, and the things you wanted to be when you were 15, those are the things you will want to be for the rest of your lives.
So Osama has basically set a weather vein for a very large part of Islamic civilization.
But if I were Osama, if I were doing for Osama what I used to do for people like Michael Jackson and Prince, and I were advising him on what to do next, I would be saying, look, you're Osama now, okay?
I would be telling you, look, you have done something spectacular with 9-11.
Now use all that brilliance of timing that you have.
Stay absolutely quiet in North America until you can make a decisive blow.
Now, here's what I mean by a decisive blow.
The United States made a decisive blow against Japan with Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
It broke the spirit of Japanese civilization just the way you break the spirit of a horse when you turn it from a wild animal to a docile beast will eat from your hand and let you throw a saddle over his back.
First of all, if I were again advising you and you were Osama, I would say do not just hit New York and Washington.
They are expecting that.
Hit seven, hit eight, hit nine cities simultaneously.
Hit them with what you tried in Jordan three months ago, which is ten car bombs at once loaded with the chemical ingredients for chemical weapons so that instead of killing 200 people, you would kill 20,000.
And a few weeks ago, senior Revolutionary Guards officials in Iran talked about eliminating Anglo-Saxon civilization using, quote, 29 sensitive targets they claim already to have scouted out.
They also claim that they've got the weapons, including the missiles, which we don't think they've got.
We really don't.
But they say that today we have in our possession long-range smart missiles which can reach many of the interests and vital resources of the Americans.
So this is spreading.
And it's time to do something before it spreads too far or before I'm gone because I'm going to stay in New York one way or the other.
And again, two weeks after 9-11, one of my Islamic friends came to me, and he said, you pointing at me as if I'm the government of the United States, a little unlikely, you have to do the following immediately.
You have to wipe out the nuclear facilities in Iran, Syria, Libya, Iraq, and North Korea and Pakistan.
But this is what one of my Islamic friends was telling me.
And frankly, now that the Iranians are beginning to talk like this, and now that they are on the verge of getting long-range nuclear-capable missiles, I think we have to do something, and it has to be pinpointed to the nuclear, as well as we can pinpoint it, given our vision.
I would do what my Islamic friend has recommended and pinpoint to the best of my ability the nuclear facilities that exist among, quote, rogue nations, unquote, and eliminate them to the best of our ability, not touching civilians to the best of our ability.
Well, isn't something like this or whatever it takes to be responsive and to be winning this war, isn't that something that's likely to come from a second-term Bush administration?
You mentioned this has pretty much become a numbers war, 1 versus 7.
And, you know, is the government developing or actually do they have in mind using any weapons, whether they are biological weapons, to counteract this numbers war?
Because essentially it's become a war of cultures, especially with an almost zero growth among Christians in Europe and a growth of Islam in Europe.
This may become a numbers war almost like you're battling locusts.
And one of those weapons being developed is possible.
There's a cultural weapon being developed to counter this movement, almost like a new crusade.
That the West is going to prepare for this war movement.
Well, we have been told for the last 20 or 30 years that we are nothing but a consumer culture, that we are mere puppets manipulated by clever marketing men who are forcing all kinds of excess consumer goods down our throat in order to turn us into puppets of giant international corporations.
But I would like to see, well, you know, I was in no, you probably don't.
I was in the middle of a book called Reinventing Capitalism, Putting Soul on the Machine, precisely to get rid of this notion that we are a consumer culture and to demonstrate that we're one of the most creative cultures.
In fact, we are the most creative culture.
I mean, Western civilization, in its entirety, as it exists today, is the most creative civilization this world has ever seen.
And that every single idealism, every single sense of ideals has said it will lift the poor and the oppressed, and no one has lifted the poor and oppressed better than post-industrial or industrial modern Western civilization.
Well, I wanted to oversell it by writing a book, but now I am being told, write the book.
It's called, So Far, The Secret Osama, The Naked Sayings of Osama bin Laden, because even my friends who are supposed to be Middle Eastern experts, when I quote Osama to them, say, where did you get that?
Do you understand Arabic?
No, I simply got it out of diligence and persistence.
But apparently, I'm going to have to put these speeches of Osama together so other people can read them, too.
And, you know, when you draw the example of how well we understood Hitler and look back on our reactions to Hitler early on, it's got to be sobering for those who are thinking the way we're reacting to Osama bin Laden right now.
Very, very, very sobering.
Howard, hold on.
We're at the bottom of the hour.
And we'll continue to take questions for Howard Blue.
What he has unlaid before us this morning is truly, truly a frightening scenario.
This is a group of people, unknown in size, but certainly with intent well known.
The intent to kill us, to erase us from the face of the globe, because we certainly are not going to be converted.
From the high desert in the middle of the night, discussing things that I guess you think about on nights like this, I'm Art Bell.
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Well, conventional wisdom is the Pakistani-Afghan border.
And frankly, I am the last person in the world to ask where Osama is.
I know where his mind is.
I know where his emotions are because of reading his speeches, but where he is physically, nope, sorry, don't have any information that the rest of the world doesn't have.
Well, the international effort goes back to at least 1991.
That's 13 years.
That's a long time.
Are there sleeper cells?
Yes, there are sleeper cells.
We learned that from 9-11.
It took at least five years to put 9-11 together.
Is there superb coordination?
Yes, absolutely.
There's no way that 9-11 could have been pulled off without superb coordination.
And again, OSAMA was not thinking in terms of exit strategies and quarterly profits.
He was thinking in terms of a five-year plan that was part of a multi-generational plan.
Does OSAMA also operate by putting information out publicly so that as many groups as possible who are independent of al-Qaeda can nonetheless participate in helping Al-Qaeda achieve its goals.
Yes, absolutely.
That's why this information on Sonar is out there in a very public website.
That's why a great deal more information is public.
That's why a person like me can find Osama's speeches, even if it wasn't intended to my eyes.
Howard, how does the CIA, since we don't understand, if we do understand some of the structure, we don't understand the strength, the ability of our enemy, is there some way the CIA can proceed to gather that information?
I'm an expert in the underlying biology behind cultures.
And I'm an expert in mass emotion.
And this is definitely war, and a crusade of this kind is one of the ultimate tests of mass emotion.
I'm not an expert in intelligence, but my sense is the same as yours, that we need more and more people penetrating al-Qaeda cells so they can come back and tell us what they are discovering.
Wildcard line, you're on the air with Howard Bloom.
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Hi.
Hi.
Hi, Art.
Hi, Howard.
This is Dave and Christopher.
As far as how angry would us Americans get, well, I can tell you, sir, that as one angry American, if these people pulled this shot and started nuking our cities, not only do I believe that Pakistan should be retaliated upon, but when it comes right down to it, people that have been blundering through history for at least the past 300 years and have told us point blank, we'll sell whatever we want to whomever we want, they should glow in the dark.
I suggest we have a large order of French toast on the day that we're hit.
And that is that if we manage to do what we've been up against possibly doing ever since the 1950s, which is destroying the human race, and if we go even further and nucleate this place so much that we destroy the entire multicellular experiment, there's a whole other life form just waiting to take over and feast on the remains.
And it's unicellular life.
It's the bacterial community, which has already learned how, I mean, it's got a research and development capacity that goes beyond Osama and you and me.
And it's already learned how to handle high degrees of nuclear radioactivity.
And it does it.
It is a bacterial called Radiodurans, which manages to back up all of its information systems in tiny, compacted little pockets so that no matter how badly its genome is damaged by radioactivity, it can reconstruct it.
Okay, well, that's the Muslim figure, but he used it one time as though it was his own.
So I think he must lean in that direction.
But anyway, whether it's $1.2 billion or $2 billion, if we take that figure and we assume that what he says is correct about Osama bin Laden and those who think like him, we are talking about an Islamic world government is what they are shooting for.
Now, but the bottom line for what Howard Bloom is talking about is also one world government of a different kind.
It's of a democratic kind, or at least something that vaguely resembles democratic notions.
So if the ultimate contest is to decide which ideology is going to rule the world, we understand that what we have in store is the possibility of human extension in trying to decide that argument.
Well, we have to do it by acknowledging that we are all talking about one world government of some kind.
And unless we can be honest enough to talk about that, I mean to acknowledge that, and to begin negotiation from that point, we're going to extinction.
Well, no, the other side doesn't want to negotiate.
Michael, I agree with you completely.
When I was first asked to think out the question of whether we should be making war in Iraq or not, I couldn't say whether we should be making war in Iraq specifically.
But the one thing I could tell you is we're headed exactly where you said.
We're either headed in the direction of total extinction, or we're headed in the direction of a PACS Islamica, that is a global caliphate, one world government run by Islam, a Pax Americana with the kind of democracy that you're talking about, or a Pax Sinaca, that is a world government run by China.
Remember, China is doing very well these days.
And China, again, imagine that you are China.
You're in the eye of ill position.
If Islam and the West fight each other to the point of exhaustion, who will take over?
China.
China's got a population of 1.2 billion, and they've got a growth rate of 9% a year.
Okay, if Iran was interested in just shaking some things up, if they would stick a nuclear bomb, say, in Baghdad, for instance, and they set it off, what percentage of our troops in the period would be likely to be killed in that?
My God, you're really hitting something very interesting.
My friends in the intelligence establishment, first of all, one of them, who is a former head of one of the most important parts of the CIA, which I can't mention because I'm not even supposed to imply that he has read this nuclear Augusta 90B sub-scenario.
However, he calls it completely plausible.
The folks who are more measured about it say, well, I think they'd only use these things to hit our assets in the Middle East and as far as Australia.
Now, our assets in the Middle East, as you're implying, we've got something like 130,000 to 150,000 troops minimum in the Middle East.
And as I understand it, and again, this is not my area of expertise, but as I understand it, that's approximately a third to a half of all the deployable forces that we've got.
So a very significant amount of our forces could be wiped out of the Middle East.
Now, the reason I'm saying the Middle East and not Baghdad is that Baghdad has a special symbolic significance.
Baghdad is the capital of Islam.
Baghdad is the capital of the Caliphate, as Osama sees it.
So I do not see Osama ever, ever, ever touching Baghdad with nuclear weapons.
I think that he would use them to take out as many, and Iran would use its weapons.
This is what it's implied in the statements that I just read, that it would use its weapons to reach as many of our Middle Eastern capacities as possible.
But again, we have so much invested in the Middle East right now.
We even have so many of our we're totally dependent on 11 aircraft carriers for our force projection capabilities.
Those aircraft carriers can be wiped out by missiles.
That is, specifically missiles that just skim over the tops of the waves.
And those are missiles that exist carrying nuclear weapons.
China has some of those missiles, and frankly, that's what the submarines were originally designed for, Exocet missiles.
So our entire force projection capability and a very substantial part of our military capability, that is our Army, can be wiped out in the Middle East?
I hadn't thought of that, but it's a very good question.