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Aug. 21, 2004 - Art Bell

02:52:27

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Howard Bloom - Nuclear 9-11

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	♪♪♪ ♪♪♪
	♪♪♪ From the high desert in the great American Southwest,
	I bid you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon, The weekend has arrived.
	As have I. Howdy, I'm Art Bell.
	It is my honor and privilege to be with you, escorting you through the weekend of talk radio.
	And oh, it's going to be quite something.
	Tomorrow night, we are going to devote entirely to open lines.
	Now, you know how that goes.
	Literally, anything can be and should be expected, I might add.
	So totally open lines for our night.
	We may or may not decide to have a theme.
	I've been doing that for years.
	If I think of something I really, really want to squeeze from all of you, I'll develop some kind of theme and I'm open to any ideas as usual.
	There is a universe of them out there.
	All right, let's look quickly at what's occurring in the world, shall we?
	Uh, depressing as that usually is.
	Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry Saturday urged the president to stand up and stop what he's calling personal attacks over his combat record in Vietnam.
	I'm sure you've heard about this, uh, by now, right?
	As a, uh, at a fundraiser attended by about 750, Kerry said the attacks by a group of Vietnam vets and former swift boat commanders have intensified because in the last months they've seen me climbing in America's understanding that Well, I know how to fight smarter and more effective wars against terrorism.
	So he'd be more effective, he says, and that's why they're attacking his Vietnam record.
	Or Cambodia record, or whatever it is.
	Yeah, well, the issue is war, isn't it?
	And militants loyal to radical Shiite clerics Muhtar al-Sadr kept hold on a revered shrine, and clashes flared in Najaf.
	It's not a friendly place at all for us, raising fears that a resolution to the crisis in the Holy City could collapse amid bickering between Shiite leaders, and I guess there's going to be a big fight there.
	Shape it up that way.
	The U.S.
	men's basketball team endured another brutal loss Saturday night, but because Angola is playing even worse, we are still in the quarterfinals.
	So... Overall, though, I think we're doing quite well, and they're calling these the Olympics that no one showed up at, and tonight on, I think it was CNN, I saw a pathetic little picture of The stands occupied by one couple, one couple Cubans from some other country were playing a game and there was one couple in the stands.
	So they've decided they're not gonna give away tickets no matter what and I've been watching the Olympics and enjoying them.
	So there you are.
	Governments throughout Mexico and Central America, this is interesting, are on alert as evidence appears to be growing that Al-Qaeda members ...are traveling in the region and they're looking for recruits to carry out attacks in Latin America, the potential last frontier for international terrorism, it's said.
	So, Al Qaeda is going to recruit and then carry out attacks in South America.
	I wonder how our borders are doing.
	Well, pretty porous, huh?
	They are pretty porous.
	Pakistan has, get this, arrested at least five Al-Qaeda-linked terrorists.
	You know, so many have been arrested now and or killed that you wonder, don't you ever wonder how big Al-Qaeda is?
	I certainly do.
	Apparently a lot bigger than we thought.
	So this terrorist group, I mean, when you consider we've been knocking them off right and left in Afghanistan and elsewhere in the world, and still we're facing them, so there must be a lot of them out there.
	Anyway, Pakistan claims to have arrested five of them that were plotting a suicide attack on probably the U.S.
	Embassy and government leaders.
	They captured five or six suspects.
	One Egyptian, the other Pakistani, the other's Pakistani.
	So, there must be a lot of al-Qaeda out there.
	Indeed.
	More than we thought, certainly, right?
	America's top speed eater Speed Eater wolfed down 38 lobsters in 12 short, death-defying moments Saturday to win the World Lobster Eating Contest.
	Sonia Thomas, it's a girl, Sonia Thomas of Alexandria, Virginia, won 500 bucks and got a trophy belt for her efforts consuming, get this, 9.76 pounds of lobster meat.
	and six pounds of lobster meat.
	Uh-huh.
	Uh-huh.
	She must be, Sonya must be a, uh, she must be, that's a lot of lobster, baby.
	Maybe we'll be right back.
	Ordinary.
	My wife, Ramona, as you may or may not know, is... Well, I am too, but she is...
	She's a huge reality TV fan.
	I mean, a huge fan.
	She watches Big Brother on the computer every day, as many hours as she can squeeze in.
	She loves Survivor.
	I love Survivor, too, and actually, I like Big Brother, but, you know, she's in there every minute.
	I mean, she is a huge reality TV fan.
	And it was inevitable that this would occur, and I thought I might sort of bring you into the loop on what it's like To be invited to one of these programs.
	And last night, Ramona grabbed this email off AOL that I'm about, I think, to read.
	I think I'm going to read it to you.
	And she just went berserk.
	This was, you know, to her, this was a giant deal.
	And there is, you know, she was like, come on, come on, do it, do it, do it!
	Do it!
	And she was laughing so hard.
	Anyway, so here's the deal.
	It says, Dear Mr. Bell, allow me to introduce myself.
	My name is Christian Prouty.
	I'm casting director of The Surreal Life and a fan of your show.
	That's nice.
	The Surreal Life is about six celebrities, all from separate worlds, who spend twelve days together, living in a house and also venturing out to do various fun activities.
	Before you stop reading, hear me out on all the reasons why it'd be a positive thing for you.
	First and foremost, this would show the world a man who is not afraid to show his true self.
	Put yourself in a house with five diverse people and show America how you handle the circumstance, any circumstance.
	Take away your radio show and let's discover who Mr. Bell really is.
	So, first we have the appeal to, no, a challenge, right?
	Can you show your real self, then?
	The Surreal Life is a hit, especially with the younger generation.
	It stands as the highest rated reality show on the WB for 2004.
	VH1 is about to launch Season 3, and the reruns used to promote it have also brought the Surreal Life in at number one for July and August.
	Well, I'm happy for them.
	The website has gotten millions of hits already, even though Season 3 has yet to launch.
	Now, the greatest thing about you, Mr. Bell, is that you defy the norm.
	You travel the road less traveled.
	And that's why people respond to you and feel like you're a genuine man in search of truth.
	People want to hear what you have to say, so reach out to the younger demographic on the show!
	Just to give you a little background about the executive producers of The Surreal Life, they are four of the most powerful players in the reality TV industry.
	They've created and produced dozens of shows and have established at nearly every network.
	Some of their credits include NBC's Next Action Star, MTV's Surf Girls, Fear, and The Real World, and many more shows.
	Mindless Entertainment.
	How do you like that for a name?
	Mindless Entertainment currently has four number one shows running on four different networks.
	The Surreal Life's co-executive producer has also recently won an Emmy for The Amazing Race.
	There's another one we watch.
	I really like The Amazing Race.
	I really do.
	That I might do.
	Anyway, the show shoots for twelve days.
	I'm saying twelve days of terror.
	That's how I added that.
	November 1st through November 12th.
	We'll air in January.
	And we're paying blah amount of dollars.
	A lot of dollars.
	Let me know and I'll send you tapes and info on the show if needed.
	We'd love to make this happen.
	And I think it'd be fantastic for you to be seen in a real light.
	So, that's what you get when you get an invitation to something like that.
	Well, no way, Jose.
	I wouldn't do that on a bet, not for three times what they're offering.
	And, you know, it's just that while I like watching reality TV, I did go and we checked on, you know, the web to see what the show was all about.
	And it seems the last show, some of the contestants, if that's what they are, or mice in a cage, got to go out and do all these wonderful field trips from their otherwise locked down condition in the house.
	Oh, for example, going to a nude beach.
	Oh, yeah, that's really me.
	Well, so this isn't happening.
	I mean, I really appreciate their offer, but I'll pass it on to George.
	Now, let's see.
	Oh, here we have a story sent in by a listener, which is great.
	It's just great.
	This is about a biker, alright?
	A biker on a motorcycle, cruising through a residential neighborhood.
	Little did I suspect, he writes, I was on Bryce Street, a very nice neighborhood with perfect lawns and slow traffic.
	As I passed an oncoming car, a brown furry missile shot out from under it and tumbled to a stop immediately in front of me.
	It was a squirrel!
	A squirrel!
	And it must have been trying to run across the road when it encountered the car.
	Well, I really wasn't going very fast, but there was no time to brake or avoid it.
	It was that close.
	Now, I hate to run over animals, but I... and I really hate it on a motorcycle, but a squirrel should pose no danger to me.
	I barely had time to brace for the impact.
	Animal lovers never fear.
	Squirrels, I discovered, can take care of themselves.
	Inches before impact, the squirrel flipped to his feet.
	He was standing on his hind legs and facing my oncoming Valkyrie with steadfast resolve in his little beady eyes.
	His mouth opened, and at the last possible second he screamed and leapt into the air!
	I'm pretty sure the scream was squirrel for bonsai or maybe die you gravy sucking heathen scum.
	The leap was nothing short of spectacular.
	He shot straight up, flew over my windshield and impacted me squarely in the chest.
	Instantly he set upon me.
	If I did not know better, I would have sworn that he brought 20 of his little buddies along for the attack.
	Snarling, hissing, tearing at my clothes.
	He was a frenzy of activity.
	And as I was dressed in only light t-shirts, summer riding gloves, and jeans, it was a bit of a cause for concern.
	The furry little tornado was doing some real damage!
	Picture a large man on a huge black and chrome cruiser, dressed in jeans, t-shirt, leather gloves, puttering at maybe 25 miles an hour down a quiet residential street, and in the fight of his life with a squirrel!
	And losing!
	I grabbed for him with my left hand.
	After a few misses, I finally managed to snag his tail.
	With all my strength, I flung the evil rodent off to the left of the bike, almost running into the right curb as I recoiled from the blow that should have done it, you know?
	The matter should have ended right there.
	Really should have.
	Squirrel could have sailed right into one of the pristinely kept yards and gone about his business, and I could have headed home.
	No one would have been the wiser, but this was no ordinary squirrel.
	This was not even an ordinary angry squirrel.
	This was an evil mutant attack squirrel of death.
	Somehow he caught my gloved finger with one of his little hands and with the force of the throw swung around and with a resounding thump and an amazing impact he landed squarely on my back and resumed his rather antisocial and extremely distracting activities.
	He also managed to take my left glove with him.
	The situation not improved, not improved at all.
	His attacks were continuing, and now I couldn't reach him.
	I was startled, to say the least.
	The combination of the force of the throw, only having one hand, the throttle hand, on the handlebars, and my jerking back, unfortunately, put a healthy twist through my right hand and into the throttle.
	A healthy twist on the throttle of a Valkyrie can only have one result.
	Torque!
	This is what the Valkyrie is made for, and she is very, very good at it.
	The rear engine roared.
	The front wheel left the pavement.
	So here he is now on one wheel, right?
	The squirrel screamed in anger.
	Valkyrie screamed in ecstasy.
	I screamed, and well, I just plain screamed.
	Now, picture a large man on a huge black and chrome cruiser dressed in jeans, a slightly Squirrel-torn t-shirt wearing only one leather glove and roaring at about 50 miles an hour or so and rapidly accelerating down a quiet residential street on one wheel with a demonic squirrel of death on his back!
	The man and the squirrel are both screaming bloody murder at this point.
	With the sudden acceleration, I was forced to put my other hand on the handlebars and try and get control of the bike.
	This was leaving the mutant squirrel to his own devices.
	But I didn't really want to crash into somebody's treehouse or park car.
	Also, I had not yet figured out how to release the throttle.
	My brain was simply overloaded at the moment.
	I did manage to mash the brake down, but that had little, very, uh, very little effect against the massive power of the big cruiser.
	Now, about this time, the squirrel decided that I was not paying sufficient attention to this very serious battle.
	Maybe he was an evil mutant Nazi attack squirrel of death.
	Anyway, he came around my neck and got inside my full-face helmet with me.
	As the faceplate closed partway, he began hissing in my face.
	I'm quite sure my screaming changed intensity.
	It had little effect, however, on the squirrel.
	The RPMs on the dragon maxed out since I was not bothering with shifting at the moment.
	So her front end started to drop.
	Now picture The large man on a huge black and chrome cruiser, dressed in jeans, a very raggedly torn t-shirt, wearing only one leather glove, now going about 80 miles an hour on one wheel, with a large puffy squirrel's tail sticking out of the mostly closed full-face helmet.
	Well, by now the screams are probably getting a little hoarse.
	Finally, I got the upper hand.
	I managed to grab his tail again, pulled him out of my helmet, And slung him to the left as hard as I could.
	This time it worked.
	Sort of.
	Spectacularly sort of, so to speak.
	Picture a new scene.
	You're a cop.
	You and your partner have pulled off on a quiet residential street and parked with your windows down to do some paperwork.
	Yeah, it happens.
	Now suddenly, a large man on a huge black and chrome cruiser, dressed in jeans, torn t-shirt, flapping in the breeze, wearing only one leather glove, moving at about 80 miles an hour now on one wheel, and screaming bloody murder roars by with all of his strength, throwing a live squirrel grenade directly into the police car.
	I heard screams.
	But they weren't mine.
	I managed to get the motorcycle under control and dropped the front wheel to the ground.
	I then used maximum braking and skidded to a stop in a cloud of tire smoke at the stop sign of a busy cross street.
	I would have returned to fess up and to get my glove back.
	I really would have, really.
	Except for two things.
	First, the cops did not seem interested or the slight bit concerned about me at the moment.
	You see, when I look back, the doors on both sides of the patrol car were flung wide open!
	The cop on the passenger side was on his back, doing a crab walk into somebody's front yard, quickly moving away from the car.
	The cop, who had not been in the driver's seat, was now standing in the street, aiming a riot shotgun at his own police car!
	The cops were not interested in me.
	They often insist to, quote, uh, let the professionals handle it, end quote.
	Anyway, that was one thing.
	The other, well, I could see shredded and flying pieces of foam and upholstery in the back seat, but I could also swear, I could swear I saw that squirrel in the back window shaking his little fist at me.
	This is one dangerous squirrel.
	Now he has a patrol car.
	A somewhat shredded patrol car.
	But it was all his.
	I took a deep breath, turned on my turn signal, made a gentle turn off on Bryce Street, and sedately left the neighborhood.
	I decided it was best to buy myself a new pair of gloves.
	And a whole lot of band-aids.
	There you have it.
	I totally cracked when I read this thing.
	And I could not resist, but pass it along to you, the evil mutant attack squirrel of death.
	These things do happen.
	Now, whether this particular thing happened or not, I have no way of knowing, of course.
	None at all.
	All right, coming up in a moment, we will do, uh, we'll practice for tomorrow night.
	How's that?
	We're gonna have open lines tomorrow night, and that means the evil mutant, uh, telephones will ring and ring and ring with Well, it's just impossible to tell, and that, of course, is the fun of it.
	Anything can get through on my lines, and generally will.
	So once again, I guess I would solicit from all of you any thoughts you may have on what would make a great and special Open line situation.
	So feel free to suggest it.
	I'm reachable in two major ways.
	Artbell at MindSpring.com and Artbell at AOL.com.
	It's that simple.
	That's all lowercase.
	A-R-T-B-E-L-L at MindSpring or AOL.
	Either one will reach me one way or the other.
	What a show.
	This last episode of Dead Like Me was absolutely fantastic.
	Fantastic.
	That's on Showtime.
	If you haven't caught Dead Like Me yet, check it out.
	It's on Showtime every week.
	They're in their second season.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
	Sign up for Streamlink at www.coasttocoastam.com.
	And you can hear tonight's show over and over and over.
	I don't know why.
	If you ask about any other.
	I don't know why.
	I don't know why.
	Far out in the desert, and a spray into the midnight sky.
	A voice crackles airwaves, wise and words to live by.
	He talks of hopes and dreams, time machines, UFOs up above and high.
	Immortal answers flow from the voice in the kingdom of night.
	Dateline, Area 51.
	UFOs buzz across Nevada.
	Pretending to be stars in the sky.
	Galaxies in view of nirvana.
	Searching for abductees on the fly.
	Yes, abductees, just like you and I. Line 1, you're on the air.
	Hey, Alex!
	This story happened long ago.
	I'd say about a month or so.
	A UFO took me for a spin.
	Cause I just had to know what was it made that thing go.
	I stepped right up, inviting myself in.
	I met a long-haired gray.
	She took me up in space that day.
	Taught me things she thought I'm supposed to know.
	I didn't know I could, but I was leaving Earth for good.
	Abducted in her UFO.
	I'm your seductee.
	You're my abductee.
	She said I'm here to save you from apocalypse.
	She wanted lovin' in her microwave oven.
	But she had spinny-toos and threw her taco lips.
	To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
	775-727-1295. The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
	To talk with Art Bell from East of the Rockies, call toll free at 800-825-5033.
	From west of the Rockies, call Art at 800-618-8255.
	International callers may reach Art Bell by calling your in-country Sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
	Well, I finally lost my fear.
	It's really not so bad out here.
	Not a store to shop, telephones and bars.
	There's only one thing missing, some real down-home kissin'.
	Them toppled lips were just a bit too far.
	She's my Seductive.
	I'm her Abductor.
	She'll do anything to be my Seductive.
	I'm her Abductor.
	She'll do anything to be my Seductive.
	I'm her Abductor.
	She'll do anything to be my Seductive.
	I'm her Abductor.
	She'll do anything to be my Seductive.
	I'm her Abductor.
	She'll do anything to be my Seductive.
	I'm her Abductor.
	She'll do anything to be my Seductive.
	I'm her Abductor.
	She'll do anything to be my Seductive.
	I'm her Abductor.
	She'll do anything to be my Seductive.
	I'm her Abductor.
	She'll do anything to be my Seductive.
	I'm her Abductor.
	She'll do anything to be my Seductive.
	I'm her Abductor.
	right incidentally for those who are not aware i was not here of
	course last weekend The reason for that is my back.
	Even though I have progressed in so many ways, in losing weight and all the rest of it, I still face occasional... Well, I don't know.
	You know, I never know what brings it on.
	And in this case, there was nothing specific whatsoever.
	Nothing.
	It just, by the day, started to get worse and worse for several days, and then by the time I was going to have to go on the air, it was in spasm.
	And trust me, a lot of black people will know, those who have never had this problem won't, but once the spasm begins, there's nothing you can do.
	You medicate, and that's it.
	That's all you can do.
	Otherwise, you just sort of, I don't know, you just sort of, you go into the land of non-function.
	When your back is out, baby, that's it.
	You're in one position, trying to get comfortable, not finding ever any position to be in.
	It's just incredible.
	So that's what happened last weekend.
	So I became heavily medicated, and not at all fit to be on the air, either way you look at it.
	As promised.
	Wild Card Line, you are on the air, out there somewhere, in a truck!
	Yes, sir.
	How are you doing?
	This is Jay, traveling eastbound on 84, listening to you on XM Radio.
	All right.
	There's a lot of XM radios and trucks out there, baby.
	Oh, it's the only way to go.
	The only way to go.
	Hey, I've been driving for about 10 years, and I was told when I first got out here that the military ships There's secret loads by just regular trucks, because if you have an army truck going down the road, it's going to cause a lot of... Absolutely makes sense, sir.
	Although I must say, even having said that, I've seen some loads going down the road, I bet a lot of other Americans have too, that look really suspicious with tarps over them, that kind of deal.
	Right.
	Anyway, I had this weird load.
	I've done military loads before, maybe like a wing or some military tank tracks or something like that, but I was called to go to the Army Research Lab.
	I'm in a semi, so I was like, all right, sure.
	When I got there, I got escorted to a building.
	A couple of people came out in white lab coats.
	I'm like, all right, what is this?
	And they're carrying a five-gallon drum.
	And I said, all right, guys, you know, this is a semi.
	I got a 53-foot trailer.
	Is that it?
	And they said, yeah, that's it.
	I said, all right, well, what is it?
	And they both looked at each other and they said, it's diesel fuel.
	Oh, come on.
	I went, diesel fuel.
	This is why, like an extra gallon in case you run out?
	And I said, well, where's it going?
	And they said, Miami.
	Well, see, that's ludicrous.
	I mean, the big question would have been, why do you need a big truck to take a little teeny canister or whatever?
	And the answer to that could only been in case it escapes.
	I have no idea.
	I said, what is Miami short of diesel fuel or something?
	You know, I mean, this happened, you know, about six months ago.
	And they were like, well, no, it's just diesel fuel, and you just go to this place.
	Yeah, right.
	Well, when I went down there, I got to the place.
	It's an electronics place.
	And I said, how would an electronics place be doing with diesel fuel?
	So I walk inside to the receiving part of it, and I said, hey, guys, I got a five-gallon drum of diesel fuel for you here.
	And they said, well, we don't have diesel fuel.
	This is an electronics place.
	I said, well, it says here on the Bill of the Lady that it's from the Navy Research Lab.
	And they all looked, and they all went, oh, oh, oh, yes, yes, um, uh, uh, bring it in here, here, here, bring it in here.
	We'll sign, and they signed the bills.
	And I said, okay, thank you very much, and like, quickly ushered me out.
	Well, alright, this was how long ago?
	This is about six months ago.
	Have you noticed any physiological changes occurring in you?
	I mean, has one arm begun to shrink a little bit?
	No, nothing to that effect.
	I thought it was weird.
	And I thought that, you know, since there's a lot of truck drivers that are out there, I'm sure that there are some military loads.
	Others.
	Yeah, well, probably others that have run in.
	All right.
	Well, listen, thank you very much.
	Others may have run into the same thing.
	Sure.
	Of course, they use regular trucks.
	There's really a whole hell of a lot more security in, uh, just mixing in in plain sight, right?
	I wonder what was in that.
	What could have been in that?
	They would have ne- Why?
	What could have been in there that would have required something this size?
	Well, maybe just hiding it in plain sight?
	Maybe that was it.
	Anyway, keep checking the mirror!
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Yes.
	Ryan in Kansas City.
	Yes, sir.
	Gosh, I'm a big fan, man.
	This must be the fifth time in as many years that I've listened that I've gotten through.
	All right.
	Anyways, I wanted to ask you real quick about Pahrump.
	Pahrump?
	That's right.
	I read an article recently about small towns.
	Yes.
	Small towns that might even double in size in a year's time.
	That would be Pahrump.
	Right.
	I was wondering.
	I'll tell you what, man.
	It's going nuts here.
	My little town, my sleepy little town that I moved to over a decade ago is going berserk!
	They're building, you couldn't, I'm trying to get a garage built here, I can't, there's no contractors, they're all busy, all the building materials are gone.
	Everybody's building here faster than they, it's just incredible.
	Oh man, you've answered half of my question.
	Big business, they take notice of these smaller towns that double in size, even, in a year's time.
	Oh yeah.
	This happened recently.
	Yep.
	I know, I know.
	They call these towns, now, micropolises.
	Not metropolises, but micropolises.
	In other words, a little thing that's about to get big fast.
	Not yet, but the business, they set up on Outskirts, so they will be in downtown once it expands.
	I'm wondering, do you have a Starbucks now?
	You know what?
	I think we may.
	We may have just gotten a Starbucks, or the rumor is it's coming.
	I'm not sure which is true.
	I haven't actually seen it, but it might be inside one of the stores or something.
	Oh, man.
	You know, we've got one of the super-sized Wal-Mart stores here now.
	We have Wal-Mart now.
	Oh, God.
	When I got here, we had one stoplight, and that was the excitement in town.
	and now it's just it's a it's beyond all reason I I don't know or what accounts for it well I I guess the conventional wisdom is it's you know people from Las Vegas getting tired of the big city life and just looking over here and saying who what a nice place to live which it is and then Californians looking at this and saying cool place to retire low taxes and just really nice and So whatever it is, it's gone berserk.
	It is strange to watch.
	I mean, I'm not kidding.
	When I moved here, it was one little stoplight, and that was about it.
	We had a store that didn't have everything, and when you wanted most things, you had to go over the hill to Las Vegas.
	And now, Little Pahrump.
	Yikes.
	That's all I can say is yikes.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello?
	Hi.
	Is that me?
	That's you.
	Oh, OK.
	And your name?
	My name is Mary, and I'm calling from Portland, Oregon.
	Yo, Mary!
	And, um, good evening, everybody!
	And very glad to get through, and here's a, uh, idea for a future show.
	Please!
	Because I just, oh man, I just went through this today.
	Um, angels on earth, the, you know, everyday angels on earth.
	Okay, that's it.
	Everyday angels on earth.
	Some friends of mine.
	Well, if they're here, what are they doing?
	Well, short background.
	Yesterday, I'm 59 years old, okay?
	Yesterday, I started having what can be called TIA, which is what transient or something or other ischemic attack.
	In other words, it's sort of like a mini stroke, but not really kind of thing, you know?
	Anyway, up to about 15 of them yesterday.
	And really going through it again today and I had to go do a jewelry deal with a friend of mine.
	So I went out there and on the bus I'm having like four of them before I get there.
	Where do the angels come in?
	She was one because she took me to the hospital.
	Oh?
	She took me way out of her way to the hospital.
	And, you know, kind of like forced me in, this is fine, you know, and I was so scared, terrified, believe me, that I didn't even argue.
	Well, it's just a good citizen.
	I don't know if it's an angelic-like person, I guess, but it's not an angel.
	Unless she suddenly disappeared or something.
	But there are still, you know, it's not talked about very much, but there are still a lot of good people in the world.
	It's just that you don't hear about them.
	It's the nature of the media.
	I admit that.
	I mean, we read bad stories.
	That's what makes the media.
	Bad, scary, violent stories.
	That's what makes it.
	And the good stories don't make it.
	If somebody's helped across the street or carried to the hospital or whatever it is, that never makes the news.
	But there's still a lot of it that goes on.
	And to keep proper perspective as you listen to the news, you've got to know that.
	And you've got to fit that into the equation of what you're hearing as you get more and more depressed about the stalking, and the killing, and the death, and the rest of what comes on the news most of the time.
	You've just got to remember the good news doesn't get there, and it's for a good reason.
	Because it's the norm, and we report on abby-normal things.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air.
	Well, speaking of media art, this is Mark from your old stomping grounds of media Pennsylvania.
	A school in media, actually.
	A very early school in media.
	I will wave hello for you.
	Yes, sir.
	And I want to thank you for many, many nights of great radio from the high desert.
	You're most welcome.
	This is an election year, and you, sir, are uniquely qualified to answer a very offbeat question.
	I am?
	You've interviewed theoretical physicists and spaced out wackos.
	You are uniquely qualified to answer this, somehow.
	You were elected President of these United States, and even more strangely, chose to serve.
	What would be your top two or three priorities as leader of the free world?
	How's that for a mouthful?
	I wouldn't do it.
	I wouldn't do it.
	That's as simple as that.
	I wouldn't do it.
	And I don't understand what drives men to do it in the modern day and age of the way elections run in America.
	These men, or women, are shredded.
	They are shredded.
	And so, you know, not only do they have to raise a whole lot of money for the privilege of being publicly shredded, but then if they achieve office, they continue to get shredded.
	And so, I've got to be honest with you, I have no idea what motivates a man or woman, it must be incredible patriotism or something, to volunteer for such Cruel and unusual punishment.
	I also can't imagine the pressure, but backing away from that for a moment, what do you see as the top two or three priorities that we need right now in our country?
	Well, I think we need to find a way out of what we face, and that's terrorism.
	We're going to be talking about that with my upcoming guest, Howard Bloom.
	Obviously, the biggest thing we face right now in America is the threat of terrorism.
	He's going to talk, you know, here we go back to the scary stuff, right?
	About the possibility of, for example, Al Qaeda getting a nuclear submarine.
	I just read a really cool book about exactly this topic.
	It's one of the things he's going to talk about.
	The book I read is called Barracuda 945, Patrick Robinson.
	And baby, it's dead on.
	Dead on.
	It's written Mostly from the perspective of the terrorists themselves.
	Not the US, but the terrorists.
	And in fact they are a group led by, I don't want to say too much about it, led by an American who defected and they get hold of a nuclear submarine and the results are awful As you can imagine, nuclear submarines have the ability not to be, if they don't want to be found, you cannot find a nuclear submarine.
	If you run a modern nuclear submarine below a certain speed, there's nothing on God's green earth that can locate you, including Sosis and all the rest of it.
	And so, one can't even imagine a terror as big as a submarine, perhaps purchased from the Russians, Say, through the Chinese.
	That would be possible.
	And then used to launch missiles against American interests.
	Howard Bloom's going to be talking about this a little bit, but if you want to read a dramatic and very good book about that possibility, which is kind of written from, you know, a perspective you wouldn't imagine, from our point of view, the bad guy's perspective, I guess from anybody's rational point of view.
	Killing civilians is not rational, right?
	East of the Rockies, you are on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Hi, Art.
	Hello.
	Hi, my name is Steve from Erie.
	Hey, Steve.
	Yes.
	How you doing?
	I'm doing.
	Hey, I'd like to thank you very much for a lot of years.
	I've been listening to you for... I've been delivering papers for six years, and every morning you, in Georgia, have opened my eyes to a lot of things.
	Yeah.
	In all those years, how many papers do you think you have delivered?
	Oh, gosh.
	Oh, let's see.
	Six years, 1800, 300, about 250 a day, so quite a few.
	Millions and millions of papers.
	Gosh.
	Yeah, bringing all that vital information to everybody on a daily basis.
	Yeah, that negative information.
	Yeah.
	Well, I also run a crematory, so it's kind of a twist of occupations.
	I always tell people I wish people could view life from, you know, somebody that works around the... You run a crematorium?
	Yes, I do.
	Yes, I do.
	Man, I've never... Well, okay.
	That's definitely a twist of occupations from delivering papers to delivering bodies.
	I guess.
	I can tell you this.
	I was on a run one day.
	And, uh, I was coming back.
	Was that a paper run or a corpse run?
	Well, I also delivered caskets.
	Well, that figures.
	Yeah.
	Well, I would do that.
	We do corner runs and, uh, quite a few other interesting things.
	I was on my way back from a run one day.
	Beautiful day, beautiful day.
	I just happened to hit this one open area.
	Beautiful blue sky.
	I looked up and you could see the temperature started, uh, uh, Really?
	Well, I suppose that could be.
	wonder but you know they were in the fact that she had been you
	know how you want your wipers
	go back and forth and usually that will streak of course your window
	i've happened look up in contrails
	the way they shape and the way that
	window streak yeah i think process for a bit
	pedigree really uh... well i suppose that could be it's like one of
	sixty six point six degrees inside or outside right
	the uh... even if they're not can drills even if they're contrails
	the traditional leavens of a jet right as a
	passes through and stirs the air up there there was a picture of the american southeast that i have
	you know posted up on the website that was absolutely astounding and even if you don't think there is any cam in the trail
	part of contrails there is there can be no question but the contrails
	themselves Contribute to the weird changing weather that we're having.
	Don't you think that's true?
	I mean, where there was a cloudless sky, you now have clouds or spread contrails about two-thirds of the sky.
	There's no way, just no way that could not affect temperatures and perhaps weather patterns and the rest of it.
	Ah, but we live in strange times.
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	The sight of a touch, or the scent of a sound, or the strength of an oak when it roots deep in the ground.
	The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
	Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing.
	To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing.
	To have all these things in our memories.
	And they use them to cover us To cover us
	Ride, ride my seesaw Take this place, on this trip
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	How y'all doing?
	Coming up is a very bright guy, very bright, Howard Bloom.
	You may have heard of him before on this program.
	coast to coast and worldwide on the internet.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	It is. How y'all doing? Coming up is a very bright guy, very bright, Howard Bloom.
	You may have heard of him before on this program.
	He's almost single-handedly carved out a couple of new fields, paleo-psychology and mass behavior.
	His book is Global Brain, the Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century.
	And as you know, I've got a very great deal of interest in the global...
	Brain in the mass mind and its powers.
	Anyway, his next goal is to establish a field he calls, I believe, omniology.
	That's what it looks like.
	Omnology, or something.
	He'll correct me.
	Bloom's cross-disciplinary theories trace crowd patterns from the precipitation of the first protons in the Big Bang to future trends in the life of humankind.
	Uh-oh.
	For Bloom, mass behavior, paleopsychology, and Omnology, is it?
	I don't know.
	Are fields that encompass nearly everything man can possibly know, testing his theories of mass emotion in the brutal lab of reality.
	Like a reality TV show.
	Bloom helped shape the careers of many famous musicians.
	Did you know that?
	He also wrote position papers for two winning political candidates, helped Sony establish its software Beachhead here in the U.S., ...and helped turn Disney from an antique to a major player in the film world in the late 20th century.
	Wow!
	He helped guide Warner Brothers, CBS and Paramount into new territory.
	From each of these experiences, Bloom... ...melted new scientific insights.
	Insights that have given his scientific theories a remarkable depth.
	And again, the title of his book is...
	global brain the evolution of mass mind from the big bang to the twenty first
	century coming right up and
	the producer of coast to coast am elisa lion
	Um, talked to Howard and then she talked to me and she said, Art, would you like to have Howard on?
	And she began to sort of go off on a conversation regarding, uh, in the same breath, uh, Osama Bin Laden and Michael Jackson.
	And I, from anybody else, I would have had to have talked to the guest first.
	Howard?
	No.
	He's a bright guy.
	He's going to know what he's talking about, but I couldn't in a million years imagine what The two would have in common in the context of any discussion I could even imagine, but we're going to find out right now.
	Howard, welcome.
	Hi, Art.
	How are you?
	Quite well, better.
	That's good.
	I'm just fine.
	What in the world could these two have to do with each other?
	Well, you know my field is mass behavior.
	Yes.
	And the biggest mass behavior battle of our time is the battle between two cultures.
	It's been called, in fact, a clash of civilizations, not just by Samuel Huntington, the Harvard expert, but it's been called that by a guy named Osama bin Laden.
	And it is a clash, in his opinion, a doctrinal clash.
	He says it's a religious clash.
	It's a clash between, well, as I said, two civilizations.
	Michael Jackson, to me, represents one civilization.
	Although that may seem like a peculiar choice, but you know, you mentioned that I've worked with rock stars.
	That's right.
	And you know that Michael Jackson is one of the people that I've worked with, so I have a very different opinion of him than the public does.
	Okay, well then stop there.
	Okay, go ahead.
	Fine.
	Unleash that on us.
	Okay, Michael Jackson is the most astonishing person I have ever met in my life.
	And I've worked with some extraordinarily important, interesting people.
	You know, I've worked with... I helped build the career for Prince.
	I worked with Billy Idol.
	I worked with Paul Simon.
	I worked with John Mellencamp.
	I worked with Bette Midler.
	A lot of very, very impressive people.
	Indeed.
	But Michael is so... These are all wonderful people, and yet Michael is so far ahead of them all.
	Is it possible for me to describe how?
	Give it a shot.
	In what sense?
	He has a quality of wonder that is astonishing.
	He and I stood next to each other at a billiard table in the pool house behind Marlon's house when they were working on the album jacket for the Victory Tour album.
	Right.
	And Michael and I stood there next to each other as Michael began to open the first of five portfolios that have been brought in from major artists by CBS's art director.
	When Michael opened the first portfolio, just far enough to see a small corner of the page, you could feel, in his body language, you could feel that infinities were going off in his mind.
	This man was seeing what William Blake called on us to do, to see the world in a grain of sand, the universe in a flower.
	That was happening in Michael's mind, and you could feel it.
	And Michael became almost orgasmic at the sight of the first few square inches. Then he peeled back the page a little
	bit further and saw the next few square inches. And the sounds coming out of him were ecstatic.
	They were, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. And I have never, ever, ever seen that quality of appreciation,
	that quality of wonder or anything, even touching it in another human being. Now, that is a
	gift. And Michael has an enormous sense of obligation. I got a call one afternoon saying, in
	New York, my office was on 55th and the lexington avenue
	I got a call saying, you've got to be out here in California tonight by 11 o'clock.
	Michael has just decided to cancel his tour, and you're the only person he will listen to.
	You've got to talk him out of it.
	When I went into the van, you know these trailers that are basically set up to be dressing rooms.
	I'm at the lot where the guys have been practicing their tour.
	I'm familiar with them, yes.
	Okay, it was an extraordinary experience.
	All the brothers were sitting behind me.
	Michael was sitting at the very end in the sort of throne, the power position.
	I was sitting directly diagonal to him.
	And Michael explained why he was going to cancel his tour.
	He was going to cancel it because his oldest brother had just come down with a bone split in his knee.
	And his oldest brother, Jackie, has always handled all the dancing for the Jacksons and is, in Michael's opinion, the best dancer that he knows.
	Michael had spent a year, he had hired 110 of the brightest people in show business.
	He had put them all on contracts that guaranteed non-disclosure.
	In other words, they weren't allowed to talk about a thing that they were doing.
	In fact, legally, I'm not allowed to talk about any of the stuff that I'm talking about.
	I had to sign one of these agreements, too.
	But the fact is, he had been working on a tour that was designed to create, in the kids who follow him, the same kind of just overwhelming astonishment that he feels when he looks at a page in a portfolio by an interesting artist.
	And his obligation, and you could feel, I don't know exactly how to explain this, You could feel Michael's audience in his chest.
	You could feel tens of millions of kids in his chest.
	And there was no way, Art, no way in hell that he was ever, ever, ever going to let anyone disappoint those kids.
	There was no way he was going to let anybody cheat them.
	All right, listen to me now.
	Aside... I need to try and pry this out of you, because it's something I and a lot of people who listen to me would like to understand.
	If you're that close to Michael Jackson, maybe you can answer it.
	Maybe you can come Give us some kind of answer to it.
	I mean, look, aside from the current controversy, which we need not touch on, Michael Jackson is a weird guy.
	He does some really weird things.
	And I'm sure the larger audience out here would love any insight from someone who's close to him about how really strange he acts.
	Well, let's clarify things.
	I'm not really close to him.
	I was close to him in 1985 and 1986.
	That's a long time ago.
	Given?
	I was originally going to say no to working with the Jacksons, because the Jacksons didn't need me.
	They were very big.
	They didn't need somebody who was a crusader and a fighter.
	But when I walked into a hotel room with the Jackson brothers, I realized that something really ominous was going on, and what was going on later took me a long time to find out.
	It was really, literally a fight for Michael Jackson's soul, and I lost my part of that fight, because the brothers hired me to fight on behalf of Michael.
	Now, my impression at that point, first of all, when Michael first walked through a door, and I walked up to him, I had never met him before, I'd read a pile of documents on him six inches thick.
	Every single one of them had told me he was weird.
	Every single one of them had told me he was a bubble baby.
	Every single one of them had told me that when I put my hand out, to shake hands with Michael Jackson.
	Michael Jackson would shrink.
	He would pull away like a person who is not quite sane.
	And none of that happened, Art.
	When I put out my hand and said, Hi, I'm Howard, he put out his hand and said, Hi, I'm Michael.
	And it was so normal.
	Well, wonderful.
	But it's still, you know, the perception, whether it's accurate or not, is that he's a strange cat.
	I mean, that was my sense of things back then.
	And remember, this is a limited time that I was close to Michael.
	Yes.
	My sense of things is that we had a person who was remarkably down-to-earth, remarkably caring about other people, and who felt that he owed his audience every single surprise in the world.
	And as a consequence, at that point, I think Michael was putting out the stories about, remember the stories about the hyperbaric chamber he was sleeping in at night?
	Yep.
	He was buying the Elephant Man, and all kinds of strange things.
	Yes.
	I think Michael was doing these things, frankly, to keep his audience on its toes, to keep his audience surprised.
	I think that things really got out of hand, because back in 1986, Michael was the most powerful person in the record industry, and he represented more power than almost anybody else in entertainment.
	He had sold 36 million albums.
	The previous biggest selling performer of all time had only sold 14 million.
	Well, all right, then let me try and nail this down.
	Are you suggesting that Michael started by acting strangely for publicity or image reasons and then slipped from acting strangely into that being his reality?
	Art, that is exactly what I'm saying.
	But Michael slipped into the hands of some of the smartest people in the entertainment business.
	However, those people are smart at doing things to increase their own power and their own profit.
	And they do not care who they hurt or how.
	And I believe that they have been manipulating Michael.
	This is a belief.
	This is a suspicion based on six months of researching within Michael Jackson camp, to try to find out why things were going so terribly wrong.
	And I think Michael's been in the hands of those people ever since then.
	And I think that every tendency that he has, that did begin as an attempt to keep his public astonished, has been used against him.
	He's been isolated and manipulated in so many ways.
	Even, let's get down to the charges against him.
	You know, I mentioned when I was talking to Lisa, and I think she probably mentioned to you, a Billy Joel situation that relates to Michael Jackson.
	Why would Michael Jackson be heaped with so many lawsuits that have to do with... You know, listen, first of all, we probably oughtn't talk about this.
	I mean, it's a court case ongoing, so that's something I'd probably rather avoid, but I am interested in his behavior.
	Really interested in his behavior, and you really think that's the answer?
	That he's sort of an image, crazy image kind of thing?
	I'm told that if people are telling a lie, it's not a direct analogy, but after a while, they finally believe that lie themselves.
	They believe it to be true.
	They've told it so many times.
	They believe it to be true, and you think this weird acting slip from something for the audience to becoming the reality for Michael.
	That's an incredible story in itself.
	Well, in a strange way, yes.
	I think that in all probability, I don't know what's going on with Michael's face.
	And it horrifies me when I see what's happened to Michael's face since the days when I knew him.
	But I do know that there are people around him who are encouraging him.
	People who work the way that the people around him work usually try to get their stars hooked on drugs.
	And very, very isolated from reality.
	And they isolate them from reality by surrounding them.
	They say, look, your accountant, the guy that you've trusted for the last 20 years, he was good enough for you when you were a star.
	But now you're a megastar.
	Now you need a megastar accountant.
	And they put an accountant in place.
	They put a lawyer in place, who's their lawyer.
	They put a whole team in place, who are their team.
	So the people who want to control a person like Michael Jackson, if they want him to believe that the sky is green, Or the sky is orange.
	They never have to even walk into the room and say directly to Michael, the sky is orange.
	Yeah, Howard, we hear stories about people like Michael Jackson, and I don't know this to be true of him, but certainly many others, you know, big celebrities who have obviously made good zillions of dollars.
	And you're shocked because you hear they're broke.
	Right.
	They're broke.
	Boy, there have been a lot of those.
	Right.
	And so there must be some, indeed, weird dynamic going on behind the scenes with many of them.
	Right.
	They're kidnapped for all practical purposes.
	They're perceptually kidnapped.
	They're surrounded with so many people, again, who will tell them that the sky is orange.
	Yeah.
	That the person who's doing the manipulation will never have to say it himself.
	And they are told so many of those lies that it defies belief.
	They are kept Basically locked up in a hotel room.
	They are told that if you go out in public, this is something Michael believes, and it's quite true.
	Michael told me, look, the crowd's out there.
	We were about to go to NACP, NAACP event that I had set up.
	We're traveling in the van.
	There was a huge crowd waiting outside.
	Michael said, the crowd out there doesn't understand something.
	They don't understand that they love me, and because they love me they would like to touch me.
	And I would like them to touch me and be able to touch every single one of them because I love them too.
	But a human being is no stronger than a strand of spaghetti that's been vastly overcooked.
	When a lot of people go snatching for you simultaneously, They can literally tear you apart.
	Absolutely.
	That's an accurate perception.
	Oh, of course.
	I tell you, Howard, people who think that they want to be really famous ought to think 25 times and know the real truth of the life of people like Michael Jackson and anybody else in that class of fame.
	You're a prisoner of your own fame.
	It's something you really don't... I wouldn't wish it on anybody.
	Well, Michael appreciates it because he feels he's been given a gift by God, and that he's been given that gift so that he can give that gift in turn to everybody else who ever sees him, everybody else he can ever touch.
	But the difficulty, as you just said, is that a manipulator will take advantage of the fact that he's a prisoner, and will use that fact to totally separate Michael from any sort of reality.
	To take any tendencies, in other people's cases, Uh, the managers who do this would get you involved with heroin.
	They would get you involved with cocaine.
	They would make sure that the most attractive women you've ever seen come marching into your hotel room day after day, and that there are security guards outside your hotel room to make sure that you don't go out, and that you are told that those security guards are there to protect you.
	Yeah, is this a life you folks would want?
	Well, it's the life Michael has grown up with.
	Remember, he was already singing Kings and Queens in Europe when he was five years old.
	He's never had the kind of life that you and I have had.
	Never had even a crack at it.
	I've got that.
	Alright, well so, where in God's name, poor choice of words, where in the universe does Osama Bin Laden fit in, in the context of the discussion that we've had so far?
	Well, these are two Michael Jackson and Othello, these are two of the greatest of the idealists on the face of the planet right now.
	Idealists?
	Idealists.
	Othello wants nothing but to save you.
	He wants nothing but your own good.
	He wants nothing but to purify you.
	He wants nothing but to save you from what he says is the hell you've fallen into.
	You've been deceived, he says.
	He says you've been deceived by every leader you've ever had.
	It is sad to say, he says, that you are the worst civilization that ever existed on the face of this earth.
	And your leaders have deceived you into thinking that words like freedom and democracy and human rights and women's rights and gay rights are important.
	That these are good things.
	These are not good things.
	Any country that dares make up its own constitution, any country that dares make up its own laws, he says, is enslaving all of its citizens to Satan.
	And he wants to free you from Satan.
	He wants to free me, too.
	I don't want to be freed.
	I mean, I like human rights.
	I like free speech.
	You don't like Satan, do you?
	No, I'm not particularly fond of Satan.
	But, you know, I do like the ability to speak with you on a wide variety of topics, which is what we've always done.
	And I do like the fact that we've been able to talk, I mean, that you were able to talk to Patrick Robertson about the subs that Islam may have.
	And that you can talk to... I have information on subs, as you know, too.
	Yeah, we're going to get to that.
	That's in the book I mentioned earlier.
	That stuff we can talk about.
	He doesn't want us to talk about that.
	He says, look, God came here in 620 A.D.
	to this planet.
	He came here for the more than 1,200th time.
	He kept trying to get his laws through to humanity.
	And humanity kept getting it wrong.
	Humanity kept lying about the messages it was given from God.
	Well, he came a final time in 620 A.D.
	And he gave the laws, all the laws man would need to control any aspect of his life, including his government.
	And he gave them directly, directly to Mohammed.
	All right, hold it right there.
	And then, of course, dispersed, read, and studied in the Quran.
	Coming up, more Howard Bloom.
	He's quite a guy.
	I'm Art Vale.
	I'm Art Vale.
	And if I'm stepping into the twilight zone, Then this is the madhouse,
	Feels like being blown.
	My feet don't get moved, I'm the moon and star.
	Where am I to go, Now that I've fallen too far?
	And if I'm stepping into the twilight zone, Then this is the madhouse,
	Feels like being blown.
	My feet don't get moved, I'm the moon and star.
	Where am I to go, Now that I've fallen too far?
	So you are gone to go, When your brother hits the phone.
	So you are gone to go, When your brother hits the phone.
	When your brother hits the phone.
	BOOM!
	To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
	To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll free at 800-825-5033.
	From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
	International callers may reach Art by calling your in-country Sprint Access number, pressing Option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
	From coast to coast, and worldwide on the Internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	It is indeed, and earlier I played kind of a Oh, I don't know what you'd call it.
	It's kind of a parody song called The Kingdom of Nigh, which a lot of you like.
	That was somebody called Smokey Franks, who did that.
	Funny stuff!
	Smokey, really funny stuff.
	Anyway, we've got on our hands right now Howard Bloom, and now he's talking about somebody I'm really, really interested in, Osama Bin Laden.
	There's a lot of things I want to know about Osama.
	Why he thinks what he thinks about us.
	What he'll do about it.
	How big Al Qaeda is.
	Boy, I've just got all kinds of questions about that.
	So, onward and upward.
	Would you...
	...
	I've got a lot of questions about this.
	I really do.
	You remember we had somebody on the show, or maybe it was a caller, who said, hey, you remember how the CIA for many years underestimated the ability, in many ways, of the former Soviet Union?
	I mean, it's pretty well generally admitted right now that occurred.
	Even though 9-11, of course, very much occurred, that was X number of men who gave their lives And since then, what do we really know about Al-Qaeda?
	What do we know about them?
	How big they are?
	Anything else?
	You know, we've gone to Afghanistan and blasted a lot of them into martyrdom.
	And we have arrested them all over the world.
	And about Osama bin Laden and about Al-Qaeda, we really don't know one hell of a lot about them.
	I mean, Howard, how many Al Qaeda, do you think, still exists out there?
	Has this organization actually grown since 9-11, or have we killed them off, or where are we?
	Well, 9-11 is referred to as the blessed day of New York.
	It is referred to as the blessed day of the great victory.
	Within two weeks of the time that the towers went down, There were full-color posters selling all over the Islamic world.
	I'm sure.
	Of Osama, and behind him, all kinds of pictures of the towers falling.
	In Nigeria, which we don't think of as an Islamic country, but the upper six states of Nigeria are all Islamic, and by the way, have had terrible brawls.
	A lot of people, hundreds of people, killed in battles between Christians and Muslims.
	Um, in that country, just one poster seller said he had people driving to his place from 40 miles around to buy posters.
	There were Osama toys circulating in the Islamic community.
	The Saladin, you know, the great heroic figure.
	All right, maybe the analogy is beginning to sink in a little bit.
	You're saying that he's at that level in that world, in the Islamic world.
	Superstardom.
	Oh, I get it.
	All right, so yeah, I get it now.
	And when you're a superstar, people use you as an icon.
	When people use you as an icon, not only do you stand for things that are vitally important in their lives, but you're a role model.
	And Osama, as a role model, is the most compelling role model Probably in the Islamic world an entire lifetime, and remember, our lifetimes include the Ayatollah Khomeini, who tossed over the government of Iran and took it over, and was himself a tremendous icon to Osama.
	Okay.
	I buy into what you're saying so far.
	So, he's a hero of the Islamic world, and much more so than we know, because our press Doesn't report that, do they?
	And our press doesn't report accurately what's going on.
	Our press does not.
	When we say, for example, remember there was a story about three months ago about the fact that Osama had put a price on the head of the head of the United Nations, Kofi Annan, and Paul Bremer.
	Well, Osama does not make one paragraph soundbite speeches.
	Osama makes two hour long speeches.
	Right.
	Extraordinary speeches.
	Right.
	And another basic message, and the message about putting gold on the head of these guys was one paragraph long.
	The message that the rest of the paragraphs really tried to drive home was, you, if you are a student anywhere in this world, and if you believe in Islam, and if you want to purify and save this world, Drop your studies, no matter where you are, and come to Iraq, and fight the jihad.
	Fight the great global war between unbelief and belief.
	What does that mean, unbelief and belief?
	It means that either you believe in Islam, or you're either slated for extermination, or you're slated for conversion.
	Ideally for conversion.
	After all, our goal is to save you, if we're followers of Osama.
	Yes.
	Our goal is not to exterminate you, we want to liberate you.
	Yes, but I take it that he's given up on many in the United States.
	I mean, just flat given up on us, and that puts us into the extinction category.
	Well, I think so too, because one of his followers quoting him said, they cannot, they will never be able to believe the nature of the next blow.
	It will come from areas so astonishing that it will utterly surprise them.
	Well, alright, that takes a lot of things.
	It takes a lot of people, it takes a lot of resources, and so that's where my question, my other big question is, how big is Al-Qaeda?
	There's no way to judge because Al-Qaeda is running an entirely new form of war.
	Al-Qaeda has invented a new kind of war.
	Al-Qaeda has invented a nomadic form of warfare that can drift like a wind.
	Through cities like Hamburg, like New York, like Los Angeles, like Toronto, even like the major cities of the Far East.
	Well, okay, Howard, we hit them really hard in Afghanistan, and of course I don't know how hard or how effective it was, but how crippling do you think that blow was to Al-Qaeda?
	It wasn't crippling, and it was crippling.
	Here's how it was crippling.
	A friend of mine came back from Bangladesh last week.
	He spent a month there.
	He's from Bangladesh, and he's Islamic.
	He says, no matter what you think of George Bush, you've got to realize that over in Bangladesh right now, when people are talking about hitting somebody hard and never quitting, they're saying, hit him like George Bush.
	That means that George Bush, who's a candidate I don't personally support, but George Bush is winning not just respect in the Islamic community, he's driving a message home.
	That he can win, and Osama may not be able to win.
	That's been tremendously effective.
	Is there any other language they understand?
	I mean, if we're not going to convert, and quite clearly we are not going to convert, then we have to be exterminated.
	And so, you believe, obviously, that George Bush understands what you have just explained.
	And the moment you understand that, then There's only one conclusion you can come to, and that's that you must exterminate your enemy before they exterminate you.
	The good old classic self-defense posture.
	And that's what we're doing, isn't it?
	Well, we're not exterminating them.
	We're hitting them very hard, and it's very important.
	We're not hitting them hard in Iraq.
	Wouldn't you think if we could, we would exterminate them?
	Oh God, I would hope not.
	I'm not talking about the entire Islamic world, Howard.
	I'm talking about the radicalized element, the number that have been radicalized so far.
	If we could exterminate those, I think we would.
	Well, okay.
	We're talking about basic values and personal values here.
	Personal values are whenever you can, save your enemy.
	But if it's a choice between you or your enemy, kill your enemy.
	In other words, if it's your life versus his, those are the only choices?
	That's it.
	That's it.
	So, I mean, that is what George Bush is doing, is it not?
	That's what apparently he has effectively done in Afghanistan.
	Now, here's another little story from another one of my Islamic friends.
	In the first two weeks after 9-11, one of my Islamic friends would not dare open his mouth about how he felt in the Islamic community, because there was a sense of secret joy Pulsing through the upper middle class, professional, Islamic community, here in New York City.
	And if he showed that he did not share this joy, he was afraid of being deemed un-Islamic.
	But as soon as we hit Afghanistan, all of a sudden he was able to open his mouth.
	All of a sudden he was able to talk.
	Force.
	The use of force directly against Al-Qaeda had given him a freedom to express his point of view.
	Iraq is an entirely different situation.
	I cannot tell.
	In fact, I need to talk to him again to find out to what extent Iraq is helping us.
	My impression from what he said is that Iraq is helping us, but Iraq is a tricky situation.
	It's a tricky situation because we've made it the world's first humanitarian war.
	Let me give you an example of what I mean by that.
	Back in 150 years ago, there was a war very similar to the Iraq War.
	It was a small, localized war.
	It was called the Crimean War.
	650,000 people died in that war.
	In the Iraq War so far, if you include all the civilians, and if you include the highest estimate of civilians killed, and if you include the 1,100 Americans killed, that's a total of approximately 15,000 people who have been killed.
	15,000 people Compared to 650,000 people, that means that we've saved basically the equivalent of somewhere in the neighborhood of 635,000 lives over what previous wars would have cost.
	Now, can we make that kind of, quote, humanitarian war?
	No war is humanitarian.
	But can we make that kind of, quote, humanitarian war and still have an impact on militant Islam?
	Apparently, we are having an impact.
	The difficulty is that... I would like to know how much of an impact.
	I would like to know how big they are.
	I would like to know what their intentions from here on out are.
	These aren't small questions.
	No, these are big questions.
	As far as intentions are concerned, you know exactly what their intentions are.
	You know that they have been training in the use of nuclear weapons, of chemical weapons, and of biological weapons for years.
	Now, here's what training can achieve.
	I'm going to give you another ballpark example.
	Once upon a time, a guy named Park Chung-hee took over an absolutely impoverished country called South Korea.
	And he declared that he was going to create steel mills in South Korea.
	The IMF and the World Bank told him he was crazy.
	You could not do it in South Korea.
	Everybody had a steel mill.
	Nobody needed steel from Korea.
	He took something like 3,000 potential employees.
	He took them out to an open field.
	He had a group of foreign technicians work with him for three years, and they practiced every move they would ever make, if there were a steel mill.
	Now remember, this is an open field.
	Yes.
	And they're practicing how to make moves on machines that don't exist.
	Then he built the steel mill.
	Well, guess what happened with his steel mill?
	What?
	He put the American steel industry out of business.
	At that point, the Japanese were looking as if they might put the American steel makers out of business, and he, for all practical purposes, put the Japanese out of business.
	In other words, practice counts.
	If practice demonstrates what your intentions are, take those intentions really seriously.
	Because this was an economic war, and we didn't lose lives to Park Chung-hee.
	We did not lose lives to South Korea.
	But the folks of Al-Qaeda, under Osama bin Laden, have been practicing to exterminate us using nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons.
	Take that practice very seriously.
	Then add to it, if you'd like, the following little grain of salt.
	350,000 tons of Soviet nuclear materials alone have not been secured.
	There is no count on how much nuclear material is missing.
	There is no way of knowing how much of that nuclear material is in Osama's hands.
	But there is something we do know about.
	Mario, are you aware of whether there are actually those famed or infamous suitcase bombs out there?
	Yes, I've followed it.
	It's a very confusing trail.
	There are many seemingly valid claims that there are suitcase bombs out there.
	And one of the editors of a Pakistani newspaper, who has allegedly interviewed Osama, Quite a few times.
	Had a long conversation with Amon Zawahiri, with Osama's lieutenant, his right-hand man.
	Yes.
	The man some say is the real mastermind of the group.
	And Zawahiri laughed when he was asked about the suitcase weapons.
	He said, of course we've got the suitcase weapons.
	Are you silly?
	Of course we've got them.
	I hear a lot of things and rumors about those weapons.
	For example, I hear that, well, if you hold them too long, they might not be effective.
	Right, they might not still work.
	That's right.
	So if they've got them, they've almost got to use them or lose them, right?
	Well, because I'm not an expert on the suitcase nukes, I can't absolutely tell you.
	Something else to be aware of, the Pakistani editor who made this claim is somewhat questionable.
	He's made a lot of claims that seem a little bit too far off base.
	So we don't know about the suitcase nukes, but we do know that Islam does have nukes, that it is keeping in good repair, that it's cranking out constantly.
	It's cranking out new ones.
	Now when you say nukes, if you don't mean suitcase bombs, then you mean nuclear devices.
	Nuclear devices, and specifically nuclear warheads.
	Can we dive into the... Let's do some deep diving and go into the sub.
	Alright.
	Submarines.
	Yeah, which is where you were going in the previous episode with Patrick.
	No, this was not a previous episode.
	You've got to understand.
	Patrick Robinson wrote a book that I just read called Barracuda 945.
	It's about a nuclear submarine getting into the hands of Al-Qaeda.
	And it's an incredible story.
	And it just resonated when I saw what you were going to talk about tonight now.
	If you know a lot about submarine warfare, you know that a nuclear submarine would be particularly frightful because going at slower speeds, there's nothing that can detect them.
	Nothing.
	But you weren't postulating a nuke, were you?
	You were postulating perhaps a, what, a diesel or something?
	These are conventional subs.
	Well, they're detectable, you know.
	Well, no, no, no, no, not these.
	These are super stealth subs.
	The story goes like this.
	Back in 1994, DCN, which is a state government-owned shipping yard that makes all of the naval vessels for the French Navy, and has made them, by the way, owned until recently entirely by the French Navy.
	It's been spun off as a semi-detached company in order to make some extra profit.
	They have, you know that the French will do everything in their power to outdo the Brits and to outdo the Americans with every single weapon system we've got.
	Yep.
	They take huge pride in this.
	And they have developed this super stealth sub.
	It's called the Augusta 90B.
	It's acoustic signature is absolutely minimized.
	It's electromagnetic signature is absolutely minimized.
	And its thermal signature is absolutely minimized.
	Yes, it operates on diesel partly.
	It operates partly on the diesel propulsion system.
	But that diesel propulsion system is double suspended.
	It's got the equivalent of the suspension system in your car.
	So that the vibration of the diesel engine doesn't make it to the hull.
	But even that said, diesel submarines have to surface.
	Ah, but not these.
	What?
	These have a liquid oxygen propulsion system, called a mesma.
	And the liquid oxygen propulsion system allows them to stay submerged, just like a nuclear sub, for 60 days, without coming up for air.
	Oh my God, where is all of this information available?
	The information is all over the place.
	All you have to do is enter Augustin90B, A-G-O-S-T-A, 90B, into Google.
	And you'll find it all over the place.
	You'll find it everywhere, but in our newspapers.
	You'll find it everywhere, but on our radio and television.
	I've never heard... You're right about that, because you're telling me something new here.
	I've never heard this, Howard.
	Well, not only did the... Here's what the French did.
	First of all, these subs carry 16 cruise missiles each.
	These are cruise missiles with a range of 165 miles.
	And according to the captain of the crew, That piloted the first sub from Cherbourg Harbor over to Pakistan.
	That then piloted the second sub and helped build it in a next generation shipyard that the French helped the Pakistanis build in Karachi.
	Can these cruise missiles carry nuclear tips?
	Yes.
	Oh my God.
	The captain of these vessels says specifically that these submarines were acquired for second strike nuclear capability.
	Now, what does that mean about what these missiles are carrying?
	What kind of warheads?
	Nuclear.
	It means they were required to carry nuclear weapons.
	Now, nuclear technology has gone a long way since the 1940s when we developed Big Boy and Little Boy.
	Yes.
	Those were weapons so huge that you had to, if you were going to deliver them, you had to have a huge cargo capacity.
	Since then, nuclear weapons have been miniaturized.
	Now, it turns out that, you know that The first Islamic bomb was tested in 1998, and of course it was tested in Pakistan.
	Pakistan developed the technology.
	Alright, well, Howard, we're here at the top of the hour.
	hold on just a moment we'll be right back and we will continue talking about
	howard howard just told us something uh... that's probably the scariest thing
	Now, we have not yet asked if they actually have one of these submarines, but if they do, then America's potentially in really serious trouble.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
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	Well, there's really no question about it.
	Submarines that can't be detected.
	With nuclear weapons that can be delivered are... It's the most frightening prospect that anybody could ever imagine.
	And Howard Bloom is saying it's real.
	That they do exist.
	We have yet to ask if they're actually in the hands of Al-Qaeda.
	But I think we'll do that next.
	this all right once again uh... howard bloom and just before we
	get back to the the subs uh... howard
	there is something uh... that i want to bring up with you and i'm in a big
	tangle with these nine eleven conspiracy people and they ask questions like this uh...
	Hey, Art, what's wrong with you?
	Do you really think that ten people with a knife could have done this?
	If so, I've got two bridges for you.
	Well, there is this group out there right now, Howard, that thinks that people within the United States government did this to themselves, that this is all a great conspiracy orchestrated from within the dark center of the New World Order or something like that.
	You got any thoughts on that?
	Yeah, it's absolute racism.
	The basic idea is the only people who could possibly have done this to us are us.
	The only people who could possibly have done this to us are the Mossad and the CIA.
	Right?
	So what does that tell you about everybody else in the world?
	They're pygmies.
	Nobody else has the brainpower to do this?
	I mean, give me a break.
	Yeah, I guess that's the assumption, right?
	It has to be.
	Yeah.
	And that is racism to the nth degree.
	Every country that has ever become that arrogant, every superpower that has ever become that arrogant, has fallen.
	And it's fallen at the hands of miserable little barbarians that it took for granted as subhumans all of its life.
	And one of the greatest examples of that is the Eastern and Western Roman Empire, All of whose territory was snatched by a bunch of desert fleas who couldn't possibly do a thing because these guys only rode camels and they lived in tents.
	Right.
	And guess who they were?
	Right.
	They were the Muslims who took over almost all the known world between 620 and roughly 1500.
	Alright, I just wanted to get that out of the way.
	Alright, so look, the submarines, my God, that's such an incredibly frightening prospect That there would exist a submarine that could do this in the hands of the French, who... Ah, the French.
	So, are you suggesting that Al-Qaeda may already have one, or they're bargaining for one, or where are we here?
	Well, here's where we are.
	You asked a question before we stopped.
	Do these exist?
	There are two of them.
	They're in Islamic hands.
	I mean, there are quite a few more.
	But there are two of them in Islamic hands.
	The first one was driven from Sherbrooke Harbor over to Pakistan by the crew that I mentioned before, whose captain said that these were designed or purchased specifically for their nuclear capabilities.
	The second one was built under the following conditions.
	The Pakistanis made a deal with DC and the French company, and they said, we'll buy the first submarine from you, but you have to teach us and our technicians how to build an entire shipyard, a next-generation shipyard, That is capable of building submarine number two and number three.
	Gotcha.
	So, submarine number two has been built almost entirely in Pakistan.
	The only thing the Pakistanis did not build was the hull.
	And that submarine was commissioned in 2000.
	Alright, but Howard, being in the hands of the Pakistanis is one thing.
	Yes.
	Being in the hands of Al-Qaeda is another thing.
	Right.
	So, you know.
	So how in the world does Osama fit into this picture?
	Well, the real question here is, is Osama using Pervez Musharraf as a puppet, or is Pervez Musharraf using Osama Bin Laden as a puppet?
	Yosef Badansky, who is one of the experts on this subject, says that it's Pervez Musharraf who is using Osama as a puppet, that he has to, that it's in Pervez Musharraf, the head of Pakistan's interest, the military dictator's interest, to make sure that Osama stays on the loose, and that he can continually chase Osama, Because, as long as he continues chasing Osama, we do things like the things we've done over the last six months.
	Six months ago, we gave him permission to launch the first mid-range ballistic Islamic missile.
	A missile with a warhead, or with a distance of 1,800 miles.
	A range of 1,800 miles.
	Two months later, we gave him permission to launch one of his 930-mile range ballistic missiles, presumably with much more advanced targeting And guidance capabilities.
	We've also given him permission not only to build these subs himself, but to do it with no coverage.
	But again... Okay, now you, if you were Osama, and you had a Pervez Musharraf, to whom the United States owed favor after favor after favor, how long would you keep Pervez in power?
	For example, if there were a third submarine of this sort, being built entirely by Pakistanis, Yes.
	In a next-generation Pakistani shipyard.
	And you're Osama.
	And remember, one of the smarts you have, one of your advantages is that you, Osama, always work in multiples.
	You always work with redundancy.
	You used four planes to get at the World Center.
	Not one, not two, not three, but four.
	So that if one went down or two went down, it didn't matter.
	It was going to still happen, yes.
	Exactly.
	Now, your people used how many car bombs in Spain?
	In order to change the Spanish elections.
	Ten.
	One failed to go off.
	It didn't matter.
	It's a good point.
	Even if five failed to go off, it wouldn't have mattered.
	All right, yes, this is their known history, so yes.
	So you use redundancy.
	Okay, I'm going to give you the choice.
	Do you want to knock over Perez Musharraf now, when you've only got two submarines, with a total of 32 missiles, each with a ballistic, each with an atomic tip?
	Or do you want to wait until submarine number three comes rolling out of the shipyards and you've got 48 nuclear missiles?
	Or you wait.
	You wait.
	But do they actually have the assets to achieve that?
	Yes, because there's always been a big question.
	Back when I was writing Global Brain and researching it in 1998 and 1999, Pakistan was on the verge of falling into Osama's hands already.
	You remember that way, way back in the good old days, around 1991 or so, there were riots in the streets of one country over the very title of a book called The Satanic Verses by Salman Rushdie.
	And those riots went on for four days and four nights until finally the man we thought of as the most extremist militant Muslim on the face of the planet, the Ayatollah Khomeini, was shamed into putting out a fatwa on the head Of the author.
	Do you know where the crowds were that were doing those riots that finally shamed the Ayatollah into this act of putting a price on the head of Salman Rushdie?
	Where?
	They were in Pakistan.
	The man who basically runs the street bobs.
	Who runs the street.
	Who has a huge, huge following in the militant community.
	I mean, he runs the militant community.
	Actually went on 60 Minutes, his name is Fazlur Rahman, and he said, God has ordered us to build atomic weapons.
	But Howard, if the nation of Pakistan effectively were co-opted, let's say that occurred, and a nuclear weapon was used against any American interest anywhere, America would immediately retaliate With just absolute knowledge about a state that had sponsored this.
	So the retaliation from America would be... It would wipe Pakistan off the map, right?
	It sure as hell would.
	And Pakistan's one of the five most populous countries in the Islamic world.
	So you'd think that would make a difference, right?
	You would think that it would make it all not happen that way.
	That instead of causing us to retaliate against Pakistan, there would be some No, they don't have to do that.
	Because Osama doesn't think like you and me.
	Remember you were implying earlier in the program that we should come to know how Osama thinks?
	Absolutely, yes.
	Well, it's an absolute necessity.
	Because Osama says there are no such thing as national boundaries.
	National boundaries were obscenities.
	So are you telling me, in Osama's mind, the destruction of Pakistan would be Unnecessary sacrifice.
	Oh, not even a necessary sacrifice.
	A blessed sacrifice.
	A blessed sacrifice.
	Because, Osama says, you, people, sin.
	Now, follow this.
	Yeah, this is frightening, alright.
	In basic biology, you can have battles between two reproductive strategies.
	One reproductive strategy is produce as many kids as you can, as fast as you can, and put as little investment into those kids as possible.
	Yes.
	The other reproductive strategy is have as few kids as you can, and put as much investment into each kid as you can.
	Right.
	These are called R and K strategies in population biology.
	Well, you are watching one of the great experiments in population biology unfold before your very eyes on this planet, because Osama says outright, here's why I can beat you.
	I can be true because you turn your women into whores and prostitutes.
	You let them show their faces and their legs on the street.
	I know how to honor women.
	One honors women by keeping them at home.
	One honors women by keeping them pregnant.
	And I, I will have seven children per wife, and I can have four wives.
	And if I'm like my father, I can swap wives, so I can have between 11 and 20 wives.
	I can afford to have so many children that I can out reproduce you to the nth degree, and you, because of the sinful way you treat women, because you use sex for pleasure, and I use sex for procreation.
	So, he says.
	Yeah, so you cannot afford to lose your kids.
	You are cowards.
	Look what happened to you in Somalia when just one body of one of your men was dragged through the streets.
	You are cowards, but we are not.
	I can afford to sacrifice seven of my kids.
	And in fact, I can celebrate it, because those seven kids will be martyrs.
	This planet is but a speck of dust in the eye of God, he says.
	Life on this planet is short, but life in heaven, life in paradise, or life in hell, that is eternal.
	I can afford to send seven of my kids to paradise as martyrs, and you cannot.
	For every one kid you can sacrifice, I can sacrifice seven.
	For every one hour you put into war, I can put in seven.
	You know this to be his psychology.
	You know this.
	His speeches are so overt.
	We never hear them.
	Oh, you're right.
	You know, that was another important thing you said earlier, that they virtually picked only one paragraph out of a couple of hours of what he said.
	You're absolutely correct about that.
	We don't have space in the American media for this, but even, you know, after you go, okay, fine, CNN and the networks don't report on the rest of the speech, so that we might understand where his head is.
	Well, what's really disturbing to me is that... But why don't the magazines do it?
	Why aren't some of the magazines, like Newsweek, going into the psychology of this man?
	Well, actually, the Atlantic Monthly has been doing a superb job, within the limits of its capacities, of covering this.
	And it's been covering it issue after issue.
	The New York Times Sunday magazine has made a couple, two stabs at it.
	But frankly, these speeches are long.
	I can read you I mean, material from one of his speeches.
	No, no, that's all right.
	I'm accepting your assessment of those words, and it does ring true.
	I mean, what you've said, that is believed, and I'm sort of trying to absorb that.
	And once you do, it's a pretty frightening absorption, because you realize what it means they will do.
	And it also means there is only one Ummah.
	There is only one body of Islam.
	There are no boundaries.
	Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, those do not exist.
	There is just one Islamic people.
	And God has given Islam a goal.
	And that goal is to take the world that he has created, and take all the humans he has created, and bring them to the clear and obvious truth.
	One of Osama's followers said to CNN just this last week, now this is a very educated Brit in his thirties, this is a kid who was born and raised in Britain, of Islamic parents, and he says that this idea of freedom is sick.
	The whole of Western philosophy and Western civilization, freedom, democracy, human rights, international law, it's all sick.
	I'm sick and evil and I guess I guess if you really believe that then alright so they're gonna take they would then take those actions they would get hold of a sub if they could they would fire nuclear weapons at us they would allow the destruction of Pakistan maybe other countries but but you know for this the kind of thing that you're describing and I guess I'm not willing to believe that most Pakistanis, I'm not talking of the radicalized now, but most, for example, Pakistanis would be unwilling to risk the prospect of annihilation.
	And while I understand that the radicalized would, I don't think I yet believe that the masses would.
	Well, it depends on the masses.
	About half the masses are radicalized.
	About half the masses aren't.
	And you're dead right about the half the masses that aren't.
	The half the masses that aren't say, well, one of them said to me a month ago, look, I want affiliation with America.
	Right.
	I want to have the kind of American way of life for my kids.
	Right.
	There is no way in hell I want to have anything to do with these crazies.
	All right, well, I would think that the first priority of Osama would be to eliminate those infidels that he finds around him at home, wherever home happens to be.
	He's made that very obvious.
	He's said exactly that over and over again.
	Yes.
	So we'd be down the line somewhere compared to those that he would have to fight to say, take Pakistan, just as an example.
	And there's another thing to remember.
	The armed services Yes, and the ISI of Pakistan, the ISI is the CIA of Pakistan, worked very closely with us in 1979, and we also worked with the PLA, the Chinese People's Liberation Army.
	We all worked together on a joint project.
	It was to put together an army of people from 35 countries, 50,000 men, who we would pretend were Afghan freedom fighters.
	And we trained them in the use of things like stinger missiles.
	And one of the people that we recruited, we recruited idealists from all over the Islamic world.
	And one of the idealists that we recruited straight out of an engineering program in a Saudi university was named Osama Bin Laden.
	So the ISI and the Pakistani military, it's hard to tell who has the greatest number of followers.
	Pervez Musharraf?
	Yes.
	Or Osama Bin Laden?
	However, if you're Osama, and I tell you be patient, and I say you have a choice, you can be patient and wait another 18 months, and I'll give you submarine number three.
	Or, you can take the two submarines and run with them immediately.
	That would be the choice you'd be up against.
	Let me give you another historical example.
	Back in the 1930s, there was a country that was so staunchly democratic that it was ridiculous.
	In the days of the Roaring Twenties and jazz, There were flappers in this country, and they were having wild dances with men in the middle of the night.
	It was a very, very American-style scene.
	But the military wasn't too fond of this.
	The military had an entirely different approach to how this country should be handled.
	A very disciplined, very structured, and very dangerous approach.
	An approach that really wanted to take on enemies.
	The military in this country, within the period of a couple of weeks, assassinated approximately seven key people in the government and took over.
	The country's called Japan.
	And that country then went to take over as much as it could of China, and went to war with us.
	All true, yes?
	So a few assassinations can take you a long way.
	I suppose so.
	So you consider this scenario where Al-Qaeda would get hold of a sub to be how probable?
	I think that there's a 50 to 60 percent chance of it.
	I think that we really have to do something about these subs, Art.
	Think of one other thing.
	What would you do, Howard?
	I mean, we know what now exists.
	You know, I've been in touch with people at lower levels of our intelligence apparatus and State Department and stuff like that about this.
	And some of them are highly alarmed by it.
	But then as soon as they take it to their higher-ups, they're told to keep quiet.
	And some are very, very smug.
	And simply say, oh no, we have all the devices in the world.
	Any idea why they would be told to keep quiet?
	Well, this is a very hard one to say.
	Because, first, let's go back to the question of what would I do about it.
	We claim that we know where these, that is, the people in the government that I've been in touch with, claim, oh, we know exactly where these things are.
	We know exactly what to do about them.
	We've been tracking them for years.
	So if we've been tracking them for years, let's get rid of them.
	Yes.
	Let's get rid of them fast.
	Let's do a significant amount of damage to the shipyard in Karachi that's capable of making more of them.
	So, that's one group, I guess.
	Whispering One and the Presidency or something?
	No, that's not a group at all.
	That's what I'm saying to you.
	Alright, listen.
	Hold on, Howard.
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	I think many times the words of Howard Bloom are intended or land as sort of a general bashing of all Islamists.
	Well, it ain't true.
	Not even by his own words.
	I mean, if you listen to the words he has said himself, even regarding Pakistan, it was about 50-50, and that would be a pretty dire prediction which he made of that, but certainly not of all of Islam.
	However, I don't think any of you can deny that there are people out there so radicalized and so prepared to die for what they believe, that they will kill us en masse.
	They have decided to commit genocide against us, and if they have the ability, if they have The weapon.
	They will use it.
	They will kill us.
	If they can take out one or several of our cities with nuclear weapons or biological weapons, they're going to do it.
	So that's the fight we're in.
	I don't realize how anybody cannot understand that fact after 9-11.
	That is We're in the fight of our lives.
	We are indeed at war.
	And anybody who believes anything else is... Oh, I don't know.
	They've got their head somewhere.
	they ought not have it.
	Nomad Alright so the question is Howard, what do we do about it?
	Do we blow up the facility where this sub is to be manufactured?
	Do we blow up the subs?
	Well, it seems an unlikely action for us to be able to take under present circumstances, doesn't it?
	It does, and yet we may have to do something very unlikely within two weeks after 9-11, another of my Islamic friends, because you're dead right.
	I do not condemn all Muslims by any stretch of the imagination.
	Yeah, you're heard that way, though, sometimes, by some people.
	Yeah, I know, but the fact is that I would love to be able to talk to more and more and more of my Islamic friends.
	I meet with one of them once a week.
	I have another one who's the head of a major organization against terrorism coming up here to meet with me next week.
	And some of the most remarkable people in the world have been kidnapped by the crazies in their own culture.
	They've been intimidated.
	You know, we have protest movements, and we take those for granted.
	They're part of the Western system.
	It's not a part of the Islamic system, and that means that many of my friends who are intelligent, bright, wonderful, wonderful human beings Do not get a chance to speak up.
	They're like the Germans, who were also wonderful people.
	But you're saying... Yes, and you're saying they have found voice since we've demonstrated the muscle in Afghanistan.
	They've found a little bit more of a voice.
	Now, before 9-11, there were a couple of what are called liberal Islamic groups on the Internet.
	But there were no names given for anyone on the groups.
	They did not dare give their names.
	Since 9-11, at least one group And that the Free Islamic Coalition Against Terrorism has finally given the names of some of its personnel.
	There's another one that a friend of mine named Munawar Anis, who is Islamic, and who is the former Minister of Education for Malaysia, has told me about, and indeed when I went up on its website, it also gave the names of some of its people.
	So yes, via the Afghan War, We have freed a few Islamic voices to get out from under this repression.
	Well, is there any good assessment of the size and capability of Al-Qaeda?
	I mean, that's one thing that through the entire Cold War we apparently suffered from, overestimating, whyever it occurred, the capability of the Soviet Union.
	I mean, we just really got that one Wrong.
	And it is very easy to overestimate.
	Charles Lindbergh was taken over to Germany in roughly 1935 and shown a whole bunch of aircraft which were prototypes but was told that the hangars were filled with them and America was encouraged via Lindbergh to over-assess German capabilities so that we would lay low When Germany took over Czechoslovakia.
	Well, look, there's also the military-industrial complex, that which we were warned very specifically about by President Eisenhower.
	right and uh... it is of course in their interest for there to be a bad guy
	right there to be uh... i need to defend ourselves and build lots of big machinery
	and stuff to you know get that job done that conceal through windows and explode
	all of that sort of thing
	they're very interested in that so are we overestimating al-qaeda but then of course the other side of the argument is
	look what they did just So somewhere in there, I need to have, and the American people need to have, a true understanding of what the capabilities are.
	Is it that big a mystery, Howard?
	It is that big a mystery, and there's a very good reason.
	In military terms, you always cloak.
	You take advantage of your biggest, your biggest advantage is surprise.
	Surprise means absolutely befuddling the perceptions of your enemy.
	One of the things that Julius Caesar would have told you is, if you are small, look big.
	And if you are big, look small.
	Always keep them confused.
	It is impossible to tell how many members and potential members there are of a group that operates in two ways.
	First of all, it filters through the cities of the West.
	It thrives in the cities of the West.
	After all, it lives off Western technology.
	Without the Internet, there would be no Al-Qaeda.
	Al-Qaeda literally means the equivalent of a computer database.
	Without what's called stenographic coding on computer screens, there would be no Al-Qaeda.
	Without websites, there would be no Al-Qaeda.
	I call Al-Qaeda the world's first parallel distributed conspiracy.
	Which means you don't even need coordination in Al-Qaeda.
	The information is given out so publicly that a lot of groups operating totally independently can work toward the same end because they all share the same goals.
	Take a look, for example, at one of our areas of vulnerability, and that is our sonar.
	When I talk to my friends in government, and they get hushed by the people above them, The people above them say, oh, we know all about those subs.
	Oh, we have all kinds of means of keeping track of those subs.
	Well, that's not what the Navy says on its website about our sonar.
	But more important, what it says basically is that our sonar is dependent right now on what's called passive surveillance code array sonar systems.
	And passive systems, according to the Navy, is not able to detect stealth subs.
	And here's a specific quote from a Navy website.
	The submarines prowling the world's oceans today are much quieter and more deadly than ever before.
	An undetected enemy submarine is an underwater terrorist threatening any surface ship or coastline within its range.
	You bet.
	Then it goes on to say that its current sonar, passive sonar, is incapable of detecting these things until they're within a few feet of you.
	they are lobbying for something called active solar arrays
	but those actors so are raised are apparently not yet online
	however and that's about as much information to find the navy publishing
	but here's what you'll find out a fight called islam online dot com
	it says that surcharge is based in virginia surcharge remember that this
	advanced solar system that we've got
	for a character it's not even good enough.
	Nonetheless, the site says SIRTAS is based in Virginia, USA.
	It regularly operates from ports in Scotland, Spain, Japan, Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, and California.
	In addition to SIRTAS, the Army has remote-controlled underwater vehicles equipped with advanced sensors that were designed for Navy SEALs and that function to explore shallow waters specifically in the Yellow Sea and in Southeast Asia and the Persian Gulf.
	These are, of course, all areas where the submarines were talking about.
	Are able to, or where they have to start their mission?
	Yes.
	Now, why would a public Islamic site have more information on our sonar and its weaknesses, including passive sonar versus active sonar, than our Navy even has available?
	And our Navy says that we are totally vulnerable, that we do not have the sonar that we need to detect these things.
	Well, here's one answer.
	if you've got a parallel distributed conspiracy and if you've got cells going
	all over the world and they're all basically sinking by keeping track of the
	same information and you don't put your your information or hide your
	information you hide it in plain sighted purloined butter principle
	uh... regular on pro but your information out there in plain sight share with
	everybody that you can and those who sympathize with you
	will use that information to be realized But it is absolutely necessary that we understand the extent of the enemy's capability.
	It's essential.
	We just can't fight against them unless we understand what we're fighting.
	I agree with you totally.
	The first thing that we can do is we can examine their rhetoric.
	An enemy's rhetoric tells you a lot.
	If we have been reading Hitler's Mein Kampf... That's so true.
	...and then deliberately ignoring it... That's so true.
	Now, remember, back in 1935 and 1936, every time the German correspondent for the London Times tried to send in a story about what was really going on, his editor, the editor of the Times of London, one of the most influential papers in the world, said, please stop sending us these reports.
	We cannot print them.
	We do not want to disturb Mr. Hitler.
	And that's the equivalent of what we're doing now.
	I sat down with a friend who manages 15 of the top mid-east uh... experts we don't want to disturb mister hitler
	now why wait a minute why
	why why wouldn't we have wanted to do you know no no no no no
	no uh... why
	what is the fear i I mean, was Hitler going to, uh, was the actual fear that Hitler would reach out and strike down the editor who'd allowed this to go through?
	What was the fear?
	You know, that's a very, very good question, Art, because, uh, the fear was that if we treat Mr. Hitler reasonably, he will be a reasonable man.
	And, however, what you're basically implying here is a very, very interesting insight.
	And that is, under the superficial Disguise of saying Hitler is a reasonable man, so let's deal with him reasonably.
	There was an irrational fear that knew that Hitler was highly dangerous.
	But it was an irrational fear that nobody was willing to face up to.
	And we've got the same thing going on in the United States.
	Now we have it with a great deal of encouragement.
	You know that I've been hit by Islamic pressure groups since 1991 to keep me out of print.
	Well, look, I know for a fact that there are pressure groups associated with your appearance anywhere.
	I felt it here.
	I've had the response of some Canadian affiliates who had pressure groups brought on them, so what you're saying is absolutely correct.
	Absolutely correct.
	I felt it as a result of having you on this program.
	So people are afraid.
	People in the media are afraid.
	People in the media are afraid of offending groups who they really have more... Again, your analogy, your implied insight on Hitler was so on target I can't believe it.
	Because, in essence, the first time that a publication was attacked because of something that I had in print was 1991.
	And it was a publication owned by Bob Guccione, Sr.
	Who had a lot of chutzpah.
	This is a man who went up against the CIA over and over and over again.
	But as soon as Islamic groups walked into his office, he was terrified.
	He was terrified of having his throat slit.
	He was terrified of being bombed.
	He was terrified of being subjected to the same kind of fire bombings that occurred in England because of the Salman Rushdie book.
	And when people are terrified, they keep their mouths shut.
	But all the information we're talking about, about the Augusta 90B, it's available on the DCN website.
	That is the website of the French military supplier that has helped build these shipyards.
	It's available on Defense Journal, which is a Pakistani publication of the Pakistani defense industry.
	It is available all over the place, as I said, except for the American media.
	And there are other details that you can find all over the place, except in the American media.
	Now, think for a second.
	When the captain of the crew that tests out all of these submarines, that is, these stealth submarines, said that they were purchased specifically for their nuclear capabilities, their second strike deterrence capabilities, what enemy, with nuclear weapons, was he talking about?
	Well, I don't know.
	India.
	Well, alright.
	You're talking specifically about India, which is Pakistan's biggest enemy.
	I suppose so, but you're going to tell me that's just... Well, I'm going to tell you something about the range of the ship, which is rather unlikely, because the distance from Karachi, the main port of Pakistan, to the Indian border is approximately 110 miles.
	Or, if you wanted to simply walk down the beach, And get to the end of Pakistan, you could take one more step and you'd be in India.
	So, what sort of range do you think you'd need for your subs?
	A short range, right?
	Yes.
	These particular subs, the Augusta 90B, and again, there are two of them already in operation that have been in operation for four years.
	Their range would be?
	Their range is 10,000 nautical miles.
	In normal human terms, that's nearly 12,000 miles.
	That's incredible.
	You're not telling me underwater, Yes.
	No, no.
	As I said, they can go for 60 days.
	Underwater?
	Underwater without coming up.
	But again, if you're Osama, and you manage to gain control of these subs, why don't you simply take them out to the middle of the Atlantic or the Pacific Ocean to some nice deep trench, keep them there for 30 days without moving a bit, so that there's no way of detecting them, and then when you need them, bring them out of hiding.
	You've still got an extra 30 days to go underwater.
	Without coming up for air.
	I can't dispute that technically what you're suggesting could be done.
	However, again, it would mean real war.
	We would know who was behind it.
	Do you doubt there would be a nuclear response?
	I don't know whether there would be a nuclear response, but certainly if we were talking about a nation that worked with the same kind of logic we do, like the Soviet Union, Then we would have deterrent capabilities.
	But if you're not deterred by losing a quarter of your population, there's no deterrence anymore.
	Remember, the Islamic community, according to our demographers, is 1.2 billion people.
	The Islamic community, according to Islamic demographers, is 2 billion people.
	Losing a quarter of your population would bring the Islamic population down to 1.5 billion people.
	Now, would anybody sane be willing to allow the death of 500 million people?
	No.
	No.
	Is Osama, by our standards, sane?
	No.
	Within his own worldview, he is very sane.
	Got you.
	Got you.
	And a lot of people, I do understand, and it's a big mistake that you make, folks, to just dismiss Osama bin Laden as a, I don't know, just a Crazy.
	I mean, that is what a lot of people tend to do.
	You have to listen to what the man really says.
	As Howard is pointing out, these speeches are hours long.
	If you really want to know what he thinks, and you doubt what Howard says, read some of the translations so you might understand his mind.
	So, not crazy, Howard, right?
	Not crazy at all, and his spiritual grandfather, sort of the Iacocca Mani, Islam has been forced to annihilate many a tribe because it threatened to pollute Islam.
	Yes.
	And of course today the definition of what a tribe is is much bigger than it was, not in 1979 when the Ayatollah made that statement, but that it was back in the days of Muhammad.
	But even then, tribes, for Muhammad, meant eliminating entire empires.
	Okay, so I think their intentions are clear.
	They want to They want us dead.
	Well, certainly you and me, we'd be a little bit too obstreperous for them.
	Anybody who would be willing to take on Islam, they would cherish.
	Remember, Islam is a religion of loving, Islam is a religion of charity, zakat is one of the most important things in Islam.
	There are many, many, many, many, many good qualities to Islam.
	Well, sure.
	But it's fair to say that the radicalized want us Yes, the radicalized want us dead.
	and in fact in the korean it says that the faith for people like you and me
	is that we shall be roasted to a crisp on a spit over an open flame until
	our flesh turns black and falls off always in my home for retirement
	what that has always been my hope for retirement well it goes even further it
	says that uh... we need to feel that pain in every single fell apart our skin
	until we scream and scream and scream and then when our skin falls off our
	Here's the real part.
	When the skin falls off, we shall be given a new skin so that we can feel the same pain all over again, and so on and so forth until eternity.
	Now again, if you're Osama, and you've been told that the fate of the pagans, the fate of the unbelievers, is to roast eternally like this?
	What weapon is your ideal weapon?
	Hold it right there.
	We are going to start taking calls for Howard Bloom.
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	Certainly is.
	My guest is Howard Bloom, and by the way, once again, for those of you who want to read and understand more, you need to get his book called Global Brain.
	The evolution of mass mind from the Big Bang to the 21st century.
	We're talking about, I guess, the 21st century.
	Part of that right now.
	Our enemy.
	And they are our enemy.
	Al-Qaeda.
	Osama Bin Laden.
	With an enemy with war, you want to understand two things right away.
	The enemy's capability and their intent.
	Probably in that order.
	The problem we have here is, of course, that we don't, even Howard doesn't understand their capability.
	We don't know how big the enemy is.
	We don't really know what they're capable of.
	In the intent category, I think Howard has established, beyond any question whatsoever, that their intent is simple.
	Their intent is they want us dead.
	Converted or dead, but certainly converted is not Happening nor is it going to be happening.
	So it's going to be dead.
	They want us dead.
	And so that's war.
	We understand their intent.
	We don't understand their capability.
	and that of course is very dangerous.
	Of course there's always the possibility that we're actually
	under estimating the enemy's capability.
	It's just hard to know, but what makes me nervous is what you said, Howard, about the way Osama is regarded by so much of the Islamic world.
	That's really a foundation that bears paying attention to, right?
	Well, superstars and superheroes are the people we model our lives on.
	And the kids who, Ramiro, Osama has been a public personality in both the Islamic and the Western world since approximately 1991.
	Kids who were 5 years old and first saw Osama as a major hero are now in their 20s.
	And the things that you wanted to be when you were 5, and the things you wanted to be when you were 10, and the things you wanted to be when you were 15, those are the things you will want to be for the rest of your lives.
	So, Osama has basically set a weathervane for a very large part of Islamic civilization.
	You firmly believe there's going to be a nuclear 9-11, is that right?
	I absolutely believe there's going to be a nuclear 9-11 and my wife wants me to move out of New York like crazy because Osama has been very specific.
	He has said, expect us in Washington and New York.
	Also, someone came over to the house a few weeks ago who's read my books.
	He's someone from the neighborhood who's worked out a complex numerology.
	He's a conspiracy theorist, like the folks who think that 9-11 was caused by the Mossad and the CIA.
	It worked out a very complicated numerological formula indicating that November 2nd, the night of the elections, is when there will be an attack.
	Well, frankly, in terms of Osama's... We're speculating now, but I'm going to give you some facts.
	In terms of Osama's way of thinking, Stopping the election is absolutely sensible.
	Why?
	Because Osama says our major crime is that we make up our own constitution, and we make up our own laws, and we call this democracy, and it is satanism.
	Yes.
	Yes, I'm clear on that.
	Right where the satanic heart is.
	Yeah, I'm clear on that.
	Just, since we're speculating, Let's leave the war part of it for a second.
	In your view, if New York or Washington or both were hit with nuclear weapons, how would that end up?
	I mean, if you move down the line from whatever else might happen retaliation-wise and all the rest of it, what would that do to America?
	I think it would kill America.
	You do.
	But if I were Osama, if I were doing for Osama what I used to do for people like Michael Jackson and Prince, and I were advising him on what to do next, I would be saying, look, you're on your Osama now, okay?
	I would be telling you, look, you have done something spectacular with 9-11.
	Now use all that brilliance of timing that you have.
	Stay absolutely quiet in North America.
	Until you can make a decisive blow.
	Now, here's what I mean by a decisive blow.
	The United States made a decisive blow against Japan with Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
	No question.
	It broke the back.
	It broke the spirit of Japanese civilization just the way you break the spirit of a horse.
	What makes you think that would be the post-nuclear 9-11 America?
	awful beast will be from your hand and let you throw a sample over his back
	what makes you think that would be the the post nuclear nine eleven america why
	don't you imagine uh... howard an america that uh... retaliates with nuclear weapons and
	while wounded uh...
	is in angry
	responsive tiger You draw the opposite.
	Yes, first of all, if I were again advising you and you were Osama, I would say do not just hit New York and Washington.
	They are expecting that.
	Hit seven, hit eight, hit nine cities simultaneously.
	Hit them with what you tried in Jordan three months ago, which is ten car bombs at once loaded with the chemical ingredients for chemical weapons.
	So that instead of killing 200 people, you would kill 20,000.
	Pretty big ambitions.
	Right.
	Hit them with dirty nukes, which are easy.
	10-car bombs with ground-up nuclear materials.
	Hey, who cares about dying in two weeks from radiation exposure?
	You're going to heaven, and you're willing to murder yourself anyway.
	And hit with the nuclear devices from the subs all simultaneously.
	Yeah.
	God, that's gruesome.
	Alright, look, we've spent so much time together, Howard, I've gotta go to the audience and let them ask some questions.
	Let's see, I mean, you've given them a lot to digest.
	Although, you know, there's one other thing to take into account.
	One other little thing.
	Yes?
	Osama's way of thought is spreading very rapidly.
	And a few weeks ago, senior Revolutionary Guards officials in Iran talked about eliminating Anglo-Saxon civilization using, quote, 29 sensitive targets they claim already to have scouted out.
	They also claim that they've got the weapons, including the missiles, which we don't think they've got.
	We really don't.
	But they say that today we have in our possession long-range smart missiles which can reach many of the interests and vital resources of the Americans.
	So this is spreading.
	And it's time to do something before it spreads too far, or before I'm gone, because I'm going to stay in New York one way or the other.
	All right.
	All right.
	Got to go to the phones.
	These to the Rockies.
	You're on the air with Howard Bloom.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	I sure hope Osama's not listening tonight.
	I do, too.
	We don't want to give him any No, that's a big problem with coming up with these concepts.
	Oh, I very sincerely doubt it.
	We're talking about anything that has not occurred to him, period.
	I mean, this is a man who did what he did on 9-11, so believe me, believe me, we're not talking about anything he hasn't thought about, ma'am.
	What's your question?
	Okay, my question, Howard, is now that you've presented this very lovely scenario, what can we do about it?
	Yeah, good question.
	It's a very good question, and again, two weeks after 9-11, one of my Islamic friends came to me, and he said, you, pointing at me as if I'm the government of the United States, a little unlikely, you have to do the following immediately.
	You have to wipe out the nuclear facilities in Iran, Syria, Libya, Iraq, That's a pretty big bite.
	and pakistan as a pretty good one about iraq that's a pretty big bite
	Yes.
	yes and i shot at at the thought
	but this is what one of my hislamic friends was telling me and frankly now
	that the iranians are beginning to talk like this yes and now that they are on
	the verge of getting long-range nuclear or long-range nuclear capable missiles
	yes uh... i think we have to do something and it has to be
	pinpointed to the nuclear as well as we can pinpointed
	given our theory
	theory theory poor
	uh... intelligence Well, it is poor, because infiltrating is just damn near impossible.
	Not impossible, but human assets are possible, but very difficult in this case.
	And remember, people like me, and people like Bob Guccioni Sr., who I thought had Cajones, We worked against the CIA in the 1960s and the 1970s.
	We complained about the CIA.
	We forced the CIA to get rid of its ground capabilities.
	Alright, so then, in answer to her question, that was your answer.
	I would do what my Islamic friend has recommended and pinpoint to the best of my ability the nuclear facilities that exist among, quote, rogue nations, unquote, and eliminate them to the best of our ability, not touching civilians to the best of our ability.
	Well, isn't something like this, or whatever it takes to be responsive and to be winning this war, isn't that something that's likely to come from a second term Bush administration?
	Not necessarily.
	Isn't it much more likely than from a Kerry administration?
	It's really hard to tell, because neither of these guys are laying their cards on the table, neither of them are giving us much insight.
	Well, that's true.
	I mean, Kerry has only said that he would fight a more effective war, and so it's hard to know what that means.
	Exactly.
	And he said he'd fight a more pinpointed war against terrorism.
	That sounds good, but it's hard to know what that means, as you said.
	All right.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Howard Bloom.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Yes, hi.
	I had a question.
	You mentioned this has pretty much become a numbers war, one versus seven.
	And, you know, is the government developing or actually Do they have in mind using any weapons, whether they are biological weapons, to counteract this numbers war?
	Because, essentially, it's become a war of cultures, especially with an almost zero growth among Christians in Europe, and the growth of Islam in Europe.
	This may become a numbers war, almost like you're battling locusts.
	And one of those weapons, being developed as possible, there's a cultural weapon being developed to counter this movement, almost like a new crusade, that the West is going to prepare for this.
	I agree with the cultural weapons argument tremendously.
	I think that aren't mentioned before, if I haven't cut you off, because the sound is cutting in and out, or was cutting in and out, but aren't mentioned before are battling back like a tiger, which is what England did when it fought Germany.
	And it's what we did when we fought Japan.
	I mean, look at Pearl Harbor.
	Pearl Harbor actually is kind of like 9-11 in a way.
	Well, we have been told for the last 20 or 30 years that we are nothing but a consumer culture, that we are mere puppets manipulated by clever marketing men who are forcing all kinds of excess consumer goods down our throat in order to turn us into puppets of giant international corporations.
	But why do you think we would become such wimps?
	I mean, that's not the American tradition.
	We really are quite a warrior people, and we're slow to anger, but boy, when we do get angry, We really let it fly.
	We don't know what our own value is.
	We have been told we are valueless.
	We have been told that what we produce is worthless.
	But that doesn't mean we bought it.
	And I'm saying that after something like that, even if you took out six American cities, Howard, the American people would be pissed, I'm convinced.
	I would love it if the American people would come together, and I've seen them come together on several occasions.
	Well, I think you're underestimating them.
	Yeah, that could easily be, but I would like to see Well, you know, I was... No, you probably don't.
	I was in the middle of a book called Reinventing Capitalism, Putting Soul on the Machine, precisely to get rid of this notion that we are a consumer culture, and to demonstrate that we're one of the most creative cultures.
	In fact, we are the most creative culture.
	I mean, Western civilization in its entirety, as it exists today, is the most creative civilization this world has ever seen, and that every single idealism, every single sense of ideals, Has said it will lift the poor and the oppressed, and no one has lifted the poor and oppressed better than post-industrial or industrial modern western civilization.
	That's a fact.
	So, I mean, don't undersell it.
	Well, I wanted to oversell it by writing a book, but now I am being told, write the book.
	It's called, so far, The Secret of Osama, The Naked Sayings of Osama Bin Laden.
	Because even my friends who are supposed to be Middle Eastern experts, when I quote Osama to them, say, where did you get that?
	Do you understand Arabic?
	No, I simply got it out of diligence and persistence.
	But apparently I'm going to have to put these speeches of Osama together so other people can read them, too.
	Apparently.
	First, Tom Colerline, you're on the air with Howard Bloom.
	Hi, how you doing, Howard?
	Hi.
	I've got a question.
	It's kind of deep.
	I hope you can bear with me, but I promise you I will thoroughly explain it.
	For a long time, I have exactly what you're saying.
	I've correlated with Nostradamus and the Book of Revelation from about chapter 12 to the end.
	And basically, what people forget is they always think of the beast, okay?
	And you know, the mark of the beast.
	But they forget about the false prophet, which is the last one.
	And I guess what I'm saying, Nostradamus also said the same thing.
	You know, they're expecting this beast to come along.
	You know, I take people over.
	Are you a caller?
	Are you a caller?
	Caller?
	Caller?
	Hello?
	Stop!
	thrust and it's clear what it was.
	Is this the Bible unwinding?
	Is this the end times?
	I don't know if you're a religious person, Howard, and you can look at it from that perspective, but have you ever looked at it from that perspective?
	Well, the Bible is very accurate in that it makes certain basic predictions that come true over and over again.
	World War I was the catastrophe, the war to end all wars.
	World War II was a catastrophe that killed 55 million people.
	There have been catastrophe after catastrophe after catastrophe.
	Art, what scares me is that if Osama has his way, he will plunge us into the next Dark Ages.
	Now, the Dark Ages engulfed the West for 700 years.
	When Rome was toppled, when the Pax Romana was destroyed, half of the population of Europe died of malnutrition and plague.
	And something even worse can happen if the embers that are left behind of New York and Washington glow with nuclear radioactivity.
	So yes, the beast can return in his own way.
	And yes, this can be an end time.
	So this could be, he could be the beast, these could be the end times unfolding in front of our very eyes?
	Without necessarily the rapture.
	I don't think the rapture would happen.
	Alright, wildcard line, you're on the air with Howard Bloom.
	How are you doing, Art?
	I'm doing alright, sir.
	My question is, I'm getting ready to leave for Iraq next month.
	Does your guest think that we've pretty much won that, or is it a big battle?
	Boy, is that ever a good question.
	Alright, fine.
	Iraq.
	Okay, there's something that Osama understands that we don't understand.
	We think in terms of exit strategies.
	We think in terms of quarterly dividends.
	We think in very, very, very short-term terms.
	Osama thinks in long-term terms.
	Osama realizes that some projects are not completed in a year, in 10 years, even in 40 years.
	Some projects are completed over generation after generation after generation, working diligently at something.
	And the Iraq War cannot be measured at this point for its success or failure.
	If we realize that we're in a war... The war between Islam and the West has been going on since 640 A.D.
	That's 1,350 years approximately.
	Osama knows that.
	He has one of the most profound senses of history of any world leader today.
	We have to know that our project of modern Western civilization has been going on since 1776.
	That's a very short period of time.
	And if we're going to keep it going, the best is yet to come.
	But we're going to have to really dig in our heels and persist generation after generation after generation.
	No, the Iraq War has not been won.
	Should we measure it by how it stands today?
	Absolutely not.
	We have to realize that we're in a war that's going to last a very, very long time.
	Do you think the American people realize that?
	No, but they have to.
	And that's why the caller who said that we need perceptual weaponry was absolutely right.
	We need a change in perception, and that's why I'm working on these books instead of my scientific books.
	Yes, well, it's quite an understanding to have, and when you draw the example of how well we understood Hitler, and look back on our reactions to Hitler early on, It's gotta be sobering for those who are thinking the way we're reacting to Osama Bin Laden right now.
	Very, very, very sobering.
	Howard, hold on.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	And we'll continue to take questions for Howard Bloom.
	What he has unlaid before us this morning is truly, truly a frightening scenario.
	This is a group of people, unknown in size, but certainly with intent well known.
	The intent to To kill us.
	To erase us from the face of the globe.
	Because we certainly are not going to be converted.
	From the high desert in the middle of the night, discussing things that I guess you think about on nights like this, I'm
	Art Bell.
	Music.
	The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
	To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll free at 800-825-5033.
	From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
	International callers may reach Art by calling your in-country Sprint Access number,
	pressing option 5 and dialing toll free, 800-893-0903.
	From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	Man, there's a lot of ways to have the hell scared out of you, and tonight's show is definitely one of them.
	Howard Bloom will be right back.
	This is an awfully good question.
	Stephen in Wellfleet, Massachusetts asks, please ask Howard Bloom.
	Where is Osama Bin Laden?
	Oh, well, what a good question.
	Wasn't he thought to be hanging around the Pakistani border?
	I mean, isn't that conventional wisdom?
	Well, conventional wisdom is the Pakistani-Afghan border, and frankly, I am the last person in the world to ask where Osama is.
	I know where his mind is, I know where his emotions are, only because I'm reading his speeches, but where he is physically, nope, sorry, I don't have any information that the rest of the world doesn't have.
	Uh-huh.
	Good answer.
	All right, fine.
	Let's see who's out there.
	First time caller on the line.
	You're on the air with Howard Bloom.
	Hi.
	Hello?
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Are you still there?
	Yes.
	Are you?
	Yes.
	I'm from Tampa, Florida, and 9-7-W-F-L-A.
	And we have a sizable Chechian community here, and Tampa, Florida is also a central command.
	Did you say Chechian community?
	Yes.
	And I watched a movie, a series called The Grid, and a lot of these Chechens are white Caucasians.
	Has Al-Qaeda ever recruited Chechens into their fold?
	Al-Qaeda has done an awful lot more than recruit Chechens into its fold.
	Al-Qaeda has been, at some points, running the Chechen War.
	One of our major problems is that our press Jesus, and I have no idea why, when Osama makes his speech, he's very clear about the fact that there is a global jihad going on, and he lists the countries that are front-line states.
	Chechnya is way up at the top of the list, so is Bosnia, so is Nigeria, the Sudan, Somalia, Southern Thailand, the Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, and the list goes on and on.
	Now, every time the press reports on a difficulty in one of these parts of the world, it says that these are difficulties caused by separatist groups.
	Separatist groups implies that these are groups that want freedom, that want an individual nation-state.
	And that's not the case.
	These are groups that want a worldwide caliphate.
	Howard, is there anything you can tell us about how al-Qaeda is structured?
	Is it a cellular type of thing?
	Is it set up in cells?
	Are there sleepers?
	Has this been going on for a very long time?
	Again, a reach of trying to understand capability, and I understand... Well, the international effort goes back to at least 1991.
	That's 13 years.
	That's a long time.
	Are there sleeper cells?
	Yes, there are sleeper cells.
	We learned that from 9-11.
	It took at least five years to put 9-11 together.
	Is there superb coordination?
	Yes, absolutely.
	There's no way that 9-11 could have been pulled off without superb coordination.
	And again, Obama was not thinking in terms of exit strategies and quarterly profits.
	He was thinking in terms of a five-year plan that was part of a multi-generational plan.
	Does Osama also operate by putting information out publicly so that as many groups as possible who are independent of Al-Qaeda can nonetheless participate in helping Al-Qaeda achieve its goals?
	Yes, absolutely.
	That's why this information on Sonar is out there on a very public website.
	That's why a great deal more information is public.
	That's why a person like me can find Osama's speeches, even if it wasn't intended.
	Howard, since we don't understand, if we do understand some of the structure, we don't understand the strength, the ability of our enemy.
	Is there some way the CIA can proceed to gather that information?
	I think it has to be gathered.
	Again, I am not an expert.
	I'm an expert in other cultures.
	Right.
	I'm an expert in the underlying biology behind cultures.
	Right.
	And I'm an expert in mass emotion.
	And this is definitely war, and a crusade of this kind is one of the ultimate tests of mass emotion.
	I'm not an expert in intelligence, but my sense is the same as yours, that we need more and more people penetrating al-Qaeda cells so they can come back and tell us what they are discovering.
	Boy, I hope we're doing that work.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Howard Bloom.
	Hi.
	Hi, Howard.
	This is Dave and Christopher.
	As far as how angry would us Americans get, well, I can tell you, sir, that as one angry American, if these people pulled this shot and started nuking our cities, not only do I believe that Pakistan should be retaliated upon, But when it comes right down to it, people that have been blundering through history for at least the past 300 years and have told us point blank, we'll sell whatever we want to whomever we want, they should glow in the dark.
	I suggest we have a large order of French toast on the day that we're hit.
	See, now you'll get that from a lot of people, but...
	I'm not sure that you don't end up with some sort of complete holocaust out of it.
	I mean, China's involvement, maybe what's left of the Soviet Union to some degree.
	God knows what could happen once they begin to fly.
	There's a lot of war-gamed scenarios and most of them end about the same way, you know.
	Well, there's one little reassuring note here.
	Yes.
	That'll be good.
	And that is that if we manage to do what we've been up against possibly doing ever since the 1950s, which is destroying the human race, and if we go even further and nucleate this place so much that we destroy the entire multicellular experiment, there's a whole other life form just waiting to take over and feast on the remains.
	And it's unicellular life.
	It's the bacterial community, which has already learned I mean, it's got a research and development capacity that goes beyond Osama and you and me, and it's already learned how to handle high degrees of nuclear radioactivity, and it does it.
	It is a bacterial called radiodurans, which manages to back up all of its information systems in tiny, compacted little pockets.
	So that no matter how badly its genome is damaged by radioactivity, it can reconstruct.
	And so life will go on, with or without it.
	And it shall be the bugs inheriting.
	Yes.
	And feasting.
	What a lovely scenario.
	Ease to the Rockies, you're on air with Howard Bloom.
	Hello.
	Hi, this is Michael in Norfolk, Virginia.
	Yo, Michael.
	I'm always fascinated to hear Howard Bloom speak.
	He's so articulate and a fascinating thinker.
	He certainly doesn't hold back on things.
	No, he doesn't.
	He doesn't.
	Unfortunately, though, he hasn't gone to the bottom line on what we're talking about here tonight.
	If we take his figure of two billion Muslims... That's the Muslim figure.
	Pardon me?
	He said that's the Muslim figure.
	Okay, well, that's the Muslim figure, but he used it one time as though it was his own.
	Uh, I think he must, uh, uh, he must lean in that direction.
	But anyway, uh, whether it's 1.2 billion or, or 2 billion, uh, if we take that figure and we assume that what he says is correct about Osama bin Laden and those who think like him, we are talking about an Islamic world government is what they are shooting for now.
	But the bottom line for what Howard Bloom is talking about is also one world government of a different kind.
	It's of a democratic kind, or at least something that vaguely resembles democratic notions.
	So if the ultimate contest is to decide which Ideology is going to rule the world.
	We understand that what we have in store is the possibility of human extension in trying to decide that argument.
	It would certainly seem possible, yes.
	So we want to try to avoid that.
	And how would you do that?
	Well, we have to do it by By acknowledging that we are all talking about one world government of some kind.
	And unless we can be honest enough to talk about that, I mean to acknowledge that, and to begin negotiation from that point, we're going to extinction.
	I doubt there's going to be a negotiation about this, Howard.
	Well, no, the other side doesn't want to negotiate.
	Michael, I agree with you completely.
	When I was first asked to think out the question of whether we should be making war in Iraq or not, I couldn't say whether we should be making war in Iraq specifically.
	But the one thing I could tell you is we're headed exactly where you said.
	We're either headed in the direction of total extinction, or we're headed in the direction of a pox islamica.
	That is, a global caliphate?
	One world government run by Islam?
	Or Islam.
	Or China's got a population of 1.2 billion and it's got a growth rate of 9% a year.
	But Howard, that's still a big risk for China to sit back and either aid covertly or just watch it happen.
	Because once they start flying, the probability of China being included or including themselves at some point is almost inevitable.
	I mean, as I was saying, every war game that the war gamers play just about ends up the same way.
	And when they start to fly, They really fly.
	In other words, ultimately, something's going to push it to the brink.
	Right.
	There's always that possibility that China's made this mistake before.
	China has counted on the barbarians to eliminate each other, not counting on the fact that once a barbarian has become strong enough to eliminate another barbarian, it's also strong enough to eliminate China.
	So there's a history of making this mistake in the past.
	It's a gamble.
	Oh boy, I guess.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Howard Bloom.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	I'm trying to keep this grounded a little bit.
	Now, what I gather from... I received some literature that talks about white magic and black magic.
	Now, what I found in the process is... We're not talking about magic at all.
	Well, no, but that is the problem, because you're talking about Osama bin Laden.
	Hello?
	Yes, hello.
	Osama bin Laden, and we're getting confused on what they want to blow up.
	It's not that.
	What it is, is how do they want to live, is what it is.
	How do they want to carry on day-to-day activities?
	All right, but the answer is that they don't.
	Many of them, the radicalized certainly, have proven how many times, sir, would they have to prove to you that their main concern is not living.
	Their main concern is converting or eliminating.
	Howard?
	Well, their main concern is the afterlife.
	Yes.
	This life is but a short thing.
	Exactly.
	And the afterlife goes on forever.
	However, there's also an answer to your question.
	How do they want to go about living?
	Prayers five times a day.
	Yep.
	Ritual washings.
	Bowing to Mecca five times a day in unison.
	Sure, sure.
	Traveling to Mecca once in your life.
	Giving a significant amount of your income to charity.
	That's zakat.
	And living according to the laws of Sharia.
	That is, living according to the holy laws that were handed to Muhammad himself.
	That's it.
	That's all they want.
	And that's what Muhammad tells you.
	What do we want from you, he says.
	All we want from you is Islam.
	And I've just described to you the daily way of life of Islam.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Howard Bloom.
	Hello.
	Hello, Howard.
	Hi.
	This is Roger in Fort Worth, Texas.
	Hi, Roger.
	You guys, one thing no one ever talks about is the education of the American people.
	And I'm telling you that most people that I talk to have no concept Of what's going on in the world as far as the danger we're in.
	They really don't.
	They just don't understand.
	You know, this election, for instance, between Kerry and Bush, it's just amazing how little people know about it.
	And they certainly don't know anything about the Muslims.
	I just don't know how in the world we're ever going to win this thing.
	We just can't seem to get totally united.
	Well, in the long term, I think you put your finger on one of the most important things On the planet, and that's education.
	Islamic kids, many of them, are being raised to be in favor of violence from the time they're five years old.
	Many of them.
	Yes, many of them.
	Not all of them.
	Remember, there are so many.
	I am remembering, and I'm trying to determine.
	I'd like a number.
	When you say many of them, how many of them are being inculcated with these values?
	Well, my estimate was 10%, which would be 120 million people, which is roughly the population of England and France combined.
	That's a lot.
	That's a lot.
	When I sat down with my Islamic friends and started throwing that figure around, they looked at me aghast.
	They said, are you crazy?
	It's more like 70%.
	Now, I don't want to believe that.
	I really do not want to believe that.
	I don't want to believe it either.
	Even if it's ten percent, then it's three times the population of Germany when Germany was under Adolf Hitler.
	That's sobering.
	Alright, um, Ease to the Rockies, you're on the air with Howard Bloom.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Yeah, listen, I wanted to ask a question about, uh, Iran.
	Alright.
	Okay, if, uh, Iran was interested in just shaking some things up, if they would, uh, stick a nuclear bomb, say, in Baghdad, for instance, And they set it off?
	What percentage of our troops in the, uh, period would be likely to be killed in that?
	What percentage of our forces?
	My God, you're really, uh, you're hitting something very interesting.
	My friends in the intelligence establishment, first of all, one of them, who is the former head of one of the most important parts of the CIA, which I can't mention because I'm not even supposed to imply that he has read this nuclear Augusta-90B sub-scenario.
	However, he calls it completely plausible.
	The folks who are more measured about it say, well, I think they'd only use these things to hit our assets in the Middle East and as far as Australia.
	Our assets in the Middle East, as you're implying, we've got something like 130,000 to 150,000 troops minimum in the Middle East.
	And as I understand it, and again, this is not my area of expertise, but as I understand it, that's approximately a third to a half of all the deployable forces that we've got.
	So a very significant amount of our forces could be wiped out of the Middle East.
	Now, the reason I'm saying the Middle East and not Baghdad Is that Baghdad has a special symbolic significance.
	Baghdad is the capital of Islam.
	Baghdad is the capital of the Caliphate, as Osama sees it.
	So I do not see Osama ever, ever, ever touching Baghdad with nuclear weapons.
	Fascinating.
	So if he had them, the likelihood is he would use them here.
	But what the caller asked about was Iran.
	No, he would use them.
	I think that he would use them to take out as many, and Iran would use its weapons.
	This is what it's implied in the statements that I just read.
	That it would use its weapons to reach as many of our Middle Eastern capacities as possible.
	But again, we have so much invested in the Middle East right now.
	We even have so many... We're totally dependent on 11 aircraft carriers for our force projection capabilities.
	Those aircraft carriers can be wiped out By missiles.
	That is, specifically, missiles that just skim over the tops of the waves.
	And those are missiles that exist, carrying nuclear weapons.
	China has some of those missiles, and frankly, that's what the submarines were originally designed for.
	Exocet missiles.
	Yeah, something down the line from the Silk Worms or whatever?
	Yes, exactly.
	Exactly.
	So our entire force projection capability and a very substantial part of our military capability, that is our army, can be wiped out in the Middle East.
	I haven't thought of that, but it's a very good question.
	All right.
	Your book is The Global Brain.
	That's the current book, right?
	Right.
	The Global Brain.
	The Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century.
	I would recommend it to all.
	Anybody who's listening tonight or has heard Howard, by all means, go grab the book.
	Howard, it's over.
	Art, you're a pleasure.
	So are you.
	That's it for this one.
	Thanks, Howard.
	OK.
	Have a good night.
	And you too.
	Take care.
	There you have it.
	Howard Bloom.
	As I said, if anything ever scared the hell out of you, this one would have done it.
	It certainly managed it with me.
	So again, as we leave you, we don't know their entire capability, but I don't think there's any question at all about their intentions.
	As for the rest of it, you're an adult.
	Digest it and see what you think.
	From the high desert, in the middle of the night, doing what we do, I'm Art Bell.
	Good night.

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