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Aug. 7, 2004 - Art Bell

02:50:59

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Richard Perez - Living off the Power Grid

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01:07:47

richard perez

01:06:10

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, quite a bit, actually.
		On my webcam, I have placed a photograph of our sleepy little town of Romana.
		Or at least with a part of it.
		Uh, taken from the air.
		The helicopter in which I got arrived about three years ago.
		Now, since that time, we have become a boomtown.
		Boy, are we a boomtown?
		I mean, new Walmarts and all kinds of stuff here.
		It's going crazy.
		We're one of the, according to the, I forget what it was, the, uh, the Wall Street Journal, I think.
		We're the second fastest growing town, or even the fastest, in the whole country.
		Crazy.
		So, our little boomtown is kabooming.
		In fact, we've got a new little restaurant.
		This will take you back, back to the 50s easily.
		We have a new little restaurant opening, just about to open.
		Not so little, really.
		You know, they're the kind right out of a 1950s American graffiti movie with the girls on the roller skates and the whole thing.
		This town is like a blast back into the 50s period, so it'll fit right in.
		I think that's pretty cool.
		Perhaps on a local radio station, we ought to run a night of Wolfman Jack or something.
		Wouldn't that be cool?
		Anyway, that's an air photograph of our little town about three years ago before the big boom hit.
		Now, I'm going to go ahead and mention this to you.
		Tomorrow night, ABC Television is going to be here.
		Why?
		I don't know.
		Peter Jennings is doing a two- or three-hour special that will be aired in February of 2005.
		And they're going to interview me and come and shoot and invade and hang around like locusts.
		So they'll be here tomorrow night.
		I've had that happen a few times since I've been doing this program, having a major network in here while we're doing the show.
		It's kind of, I don't know, it's kind of weird, actually.
		I mean, they've got to get a camera right up in your face.
		So we'll see.
		Tomorrow night, by the way, we're going to have Stephen Greer here who got, you know how I'm always talking to Stephen about how potentially unsafe what he's doing is.
		Well, he received a pretty serious telephone threat.
		In fact, we've got a copy of it.
		And you'll hear it tomorrow night.
		He'll be our guest tomorrow night, Stephen Greer.
		And so we're going to be talking ufology and UFOs and, you know, the government cover-up and all the rest of it.
		In a moment, the other cover-up, at least a lot of people, of course, think it is.
		I note the first one, two, three, four major national stories tonight continue to be about Iraq.
		in a moment.
		Now, I guess I shouldn't refer to the good people of ABC at ABC as locusts.
		They're not.
		It's just a sort of a state of mind.
		You know, I don't like TV.
		Being honest with you, I just don't like TV.
		I like watching it, but I don't like being on it.
		However, in this case, the reason I consented to do this is because they have promised, and I think this is very, very important.
		They really have promised me that this is an objective, honest, non-chuckle factor look at ufology, and they hope to propel with this program a major investigation of what these things are.
		And if that really is their goal, then no matter the inconvenience, I really could not help but be a part of it.
		That's very important, and we've been all waiting for a major network to take a major, real honest God interest in this subject.
		And they promised to do that.
		So inconvenient or not, I felt obligated to be part of it.
		So that will occur tomorrow night, and they'll be around.
		Now, the Iraqi government has decided to give amnesty to people who have committed some crimes.
		The Iraqi interim prime minister signed an amnesty Saturday intended to persuade militants fighting a now 15-month-old, been going on for 15 months, this insurgency to put down their weapons they're invited to and join the government to help rebuild the country.
		However, the law pardons only what they call minor criminals, not killers or terrorists.
		So it appeared very unlikely to dampen any of the violence, as some insurgent leaders called it, quote, insignificant, end quote.
		Probably from the point of view of their crimes, I'm sure it is.
		So what does that mean?
		If you were a pickpocket, if you stole a painting out of a museum, you would be pardoned.
		But if you continue to blow things up, no.
	An al-Qaeda terrorist suspect detained in England was sent to the U.S. in early 2001 by the principal architect of the September 11 suicide hijackings to perform surveillance on economic targets in New York, according to U.S. officials and government interviews with other captured terrorist suspects.
	They said the suspect claimed, get this, folks, that he has associates in America, possibly in California.
	The heightened state of alert in New York, Newark, New Jersey, in Washington, is a, quote, grim reminder of terrorist threats that still face the U.S., said President Bush on Saturday.
	He defended the elevated warnings in the face of criticism that they were based on old intelligence, quote, And the pre-trial hearing for a soldier photographed with naked Iraqi prisoners recessed Saturday without any ruling on whether the vice president, Dick Cheney, and other high-ranking administration officials must testify.
	An aspiring politician and video game designer who faked his own beheading, can you believe that?
	Faked his own beheading by Iraqi militants awoke on Saturday to learn, oh, look at that, television stations around the world were showing his homemade video, his hoax.
	Benjamin Vandeford, 22, said he posted the 55-second clip, which seems to show a knife sawing against his neck on an online fire-sharing network in May.
	circulated in cyberspace before crossing over to the major media airing on arab television and of course the whole world why somebody would well A series of witnesses played six top al-Qaeda fugitives in Africa, and what were they doing there?
	They were buying up diamonds in the run-up to September 11th.
	This is according to a confidential report by U.S.-backed prosecutors obtained by the Associated Press.
	The first-person accounts detailed by the prosecutors add to the very long-standing claims of Al-Qaeda that millions of dollars was laundered before September 11th.
	John Kerry said Saturday, the restriction on stem cell research, we just did a program on that, imposed by our president was a triumph of ideology over science and, quote, only adds to the loss and pain, end quote, of millions of Americans suffering from potentially curable disease.
	At this very moment, he said, some of the most pioneering cures and treatments are right at our fingertip spot because of stem cell research ban.
	They remain just beyond our reach.
	The Democratic presidential candidate said in his party's weekly address, well, how many of you have a pet that you would pay $50,000, and we all love our pets, don't we?
	$50,000 to have cloned?
	Well, if you love your pet that much, now you can do it.
	Reuters, two cloned kittens have been born using a new cloning method that may be safer and more efficient than traditional methods.
	Genetic Savings and Clone.
	That's what they're calling themselves.
	Genetic Savings and Clone promises to clone anyone's pet for $50,000 or so and began with the chief executive of that company and his pet.
	The two kittens, Tabui and Baba Ganosh, were born to separate surrogate mothers in June, said the company.
	Its report was not submitted for the traditional scientific review process and has not been scrutinized by cloning experts, but the company is less interested in scientific questions and medical promise of cloning and much more interested in its business model, helping people make copies of their beloved pets.
	So they claim they've got the science down to a paw, but they don't really care about that.
	They actually, they're in biz.
	So this is cloning commercial cloning a reality.
	So I know there are some people with the money out there who love their pets so deeply that they would clone the little guy or gal.
	Would you be one of those?
	Just $50,000?
	When performed by a skilled team using sufficiently advanced technology, clones resemble their donors to an uncanny degree.
	Just as we predicted, they say, it's a happy day for our clients.
	Some experts have argued that cloning pets is a gamble, as non-genetic factors like conditions in the mother's womb can affect coat color and temperament.
	So, I don't know, would you really get the same exact pet?
	Well, probably not.
	But the question remains, how many of you would love your pet so much?
	And there are plenty of people that you would clone the little guy or gal.
	Well, now you can.
	This is not future shock.
	This is now.
	The Poset Meteor Shower is on the way, you know.
	Conditions this year, they say, are very favorable, with no moonlight to worry about, no nasty moonlight to ruin everything.
	Some are already being seen each night now, but the best is yet to come.
	In fact, they will increase in number each night for the next few days, reaching a maximum late in the night of August 11th and 12th when get this.
	Up to 100 meteors per hour may be visible under good conditions.
	The shower occurs when the Earth passes through the trail of particles left by Comet Swift Tuttle, named after its discoverers.
	And then Jeff sends this, and I have no way of knowing if this is really a Bush quote or not, but you know, the President is certainly in the middle of a big fight to retain office, and he's under a lot of pressure.
	And in fact, Jeff says, Art, the pressure may be getting to Mr. Bush.
	He came up with a gem of a fraudulent slip yesterday.
	At the signing ceremony, I don't know if this is true.
	At the signing ceremony for a $417 billion military spending bill, the President said, quote, Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we.
	They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.
	I find it a little hard to believe the president would have uttered such words, but you know, these things do happen.
	So I don't know.
	You tell me, did the president actually say that?
	Does anybody have that on tape?
	How do you think he's doing?
	Do you think the president is going to be re-elected?
	Have you made up your mind yet?
	I am told the next president of the U.S. will be decided by those who have not made up their mind.
	I would be one of those.
	I have not made up my mind yet.
	Traditionally, in times of war and conflict, sitting presidents are retained by an American people who don't want to change things in the middle of a conflict.
	On the other hand, we're on the downside of this conflict where there has been a lot of political pressure because of the death of American men and women in Iraq, and so it's a hard call.
	Traditionally, presidents during good economic times are retained.
	Do you think these are good economic times?
	Remember the famous quote, do you think you are better off than you were four years ago?
	Do you?
	As you look around at your lifestyle, your salary, your general happiness with your life conditions, are you better off than you were four years ago or not?
	If that is the question, then perhaps you have the answer.
	Let's take some calls.
	West of the Rockies, you are upon the air.
	Good evening.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hello?
		Hello?
		Yeah, this is a live person?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me see.
		Yeah, a pinch hurts.
		Yes, I appear to be alive.
		Yes.
unidentified		Okay, this is not art, is it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What would your best guess be?
unidentified		Well, your voice doesn't sound like Art Bell's voice.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's very suspicious, huh?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So if I claim to be art, then you will not believe me, probably.
unidentified		Well, could be.
unidentified		You do have a little twist to your voice.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's say, for the sake of our discussion, that I am art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If I was Art, what would you be saying?
unidentified		Well, since I'm aware of the feedback situation, my radio is about 30 feet away from me, so I don't know what the current subject is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There is none.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's open lines.
unidentified		Oh, great.
unidentified		Well, I've got a question or a subject to discuss with Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is it?
unidentified		Well, it has to do with...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You thought there weren't screeners, right?
unidentified		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But here I am asking you what you want to talk about, huh?
unidentified		Okay, well, I'll tell you.
		Okay.
		It has to do with weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and it seems to be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait a minute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You found them?
unidentified		No, I didn't find them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
unidentified		Well, just listen to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		Well, originally, we gave or sold to Iraq weapons of mass destruction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We did?
unidentified		Biological and chemical weapons when they were at war with Iran.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, there was some of that.
unidentified		So we knew that he had them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		But did he use them all up?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, here's what I've always wondered about.
		You know, when the tanks were rolling toward Baghdad, and, you know, in Baghdad, they had to know, hey, baby, it's all over.
		It's over.
		And so if they did have these weapons of mass destruction, wouldn't you think at that moment they would use them?
unidentified		I don't think so.
unidentified		Shutdown was more smart than that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you talking about...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They found him hiding in the bottom of a hole.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right?
		They had to drag him up out of the dirt.
		I mean, maybe he was smart, but he seemed smart.
unidentified		Yeah, he was on the escape route, but I'm talking about the first Gulf War.
		And that probably put him on notice, and he could have buried all these weapons.
		But what intrigues me is that never is there mentioned anything in the news about how we, America, gave or sold weapons of mass destruction, biological and well, but that's pretty common knowledge, really.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you don't really want to tell Art all this stuff, do you?
unidentified		Well, it just intrigues me because I never hear this ever mentioned on the news.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm afraid Art just doesn't want to hear about that.
unidentified		Oh, well, okay.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But thank you for calling.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		and take care.
unidentified		Ha ha.
unidentified		God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		International Line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Hello there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes?
unidentified		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on a distant-sounding cell phone.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm driving a truck.
unidentified		That's probably all the background noise here.
		I believe there's a lot of hype to the terrorist threats and things.
		I think it's possible, but I think it would have happened by now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean something if something bad was going to happen again, something after 9-11, you think it would have already occurred?
unidentified		Yes, I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, that's an extremely interesting question.
		And I asked a guest, I think it was last week, about whether we are...
		And he said, yes, we vastly overestimated their capability, though we all do know they had the nuclear-tipped multiple reentry type capability.
		Nevertheless, we did overestimate their capability, and we may be doing that with Al-Qaeda.
		Now, will another something or another occur?
		I don't know.
		I really don't know.
		Are we overestimating their capability?
		I don't know.
		But they did do what they did, so you have to assume that they would try something of that magnitude or greater again.
		And to not assume that would be to not prepare for it.
		And to not prepare for that would be criminal.
		So I think what the government is doing right now is okay.
		East of the Rockies, you're on there.
unidentified		Mark Bell, what an honor to speak to you again.
		Good to have you.
		The other night, George Norrie had on Gina Davis.
		Yeah.
		And she was following about the 9-11 and all that.
		Well, she was speaking about that Muhammad Hussein.
		And I heard on the news yesterday where the FBI has arrested him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		Yes.
		I thought it was such an interesting program, and I just wish that there could be a follow-up to that program again.
		There were so many unanswered questions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you're right, and they really have arrested him, I haven't heard that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then the follow-up would be the trial and the sentencing and all the rest of it, right?
unidentified		Yes, exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Thank you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, take care.
		I think President Bush really said this.
		Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we.
		They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.
unidentified		I bet he didn't really say that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or if he did, it certainly would be worth having a tape of.
		A lot of things get said during the stress of a campaign that, of course, the candidates don't mean to say they deserve to come rolling out from the high desert in the middle of the night.
		I'm Art Bell, and this is Coastal.
unidentified		Don't count me, sir.
		You know it don't count me, sir.
		You don't count me, sir.
		You know it don't count me, sir.
		Got to pay your dues if you want to see the blues out.
		We'll be right back.
		Oh, yeah.
		Oh, yeah.
		The moon.
		Beautiful.
		Some.
		Even more beautiful.
		Oh, yeah.
		Oh, my God.
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from East of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From West of the Rockies, call ART at 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art Bell by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I couldn't resist.
		Remember that, everybody?
		Do you remember that?
		They're up there, aren't they?
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, back to open lines in a moment.
unidentified		The End Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess the president did say this.
		He did.
		I've got about, I don't know, a couple dozen past blasts here saying yes, unfortunately, he did say that.
		I wonder if he they don't There's no follow-up here to tell me if he realized what he said when he said it.
		But, you know, those things happen, and I definitely don't hold that against the President in any way.
		I mean, it's just a slip.
		Of course, this is worse than your average slip, but I wouldn't hold it against President.
		They're under a great deal of pressure.
		Any candidate for the highest office in the land, and they do a lot of speaking.
		Millions of words come from their mouth, and every single one of them is dissected.
		Nevertheless, this will rate up there as one of the classics of all time, and I really would like to have a copy of it.
		Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hey, RBD in Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How you doing, buddy?
unidentified		Pretty good, man.
unidentified		How are you tonight?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Excellent.
unidentified		Well, you know what?
		Two things for you, man.
		Number one, congratulations on this ABC deal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, you know, because they promised it would be a very serious, you know, kind of for the first time, one of the big three networks looking at UFOs, and so it was irresistible, much as I do not like having TV here.
unidentified		Well, you know what?
		In this war against disclosure, you're not just a soldier.
		You're like commander-in-chief.
		No, I'm not.
		You know, you're up there.
		You're a high-ranking official.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm not.
		What I am is a spokesperson, sir, a talking head.
		That's what I am.
		People like Dr. Greer, they're the ones that are out in front.
unidentified		Well, do me a favor.
		If I can't get in tomorrow night, ask Dr. Greer about the whole DMT connection, because I really believe that that's part of the riddle.
		McKenna said, hey, there's no more standing on these lonely hilltops.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right.
		You know what?
		For you, sir, I am going to ask Dr. Greer, bearing in mind, this is an emergency room surgeon, right?
		An emergency room doctor.
		And so I'm going to talk to this doctor tomorrow night on your behalf, and I'm going to say, hey, Doc, what do you think about taking some DMT and eating up with the aliens?
unidentified		Nice, nice, nice.
		Hey, man, I'll tell you what.
		You have a good one.
		And who's your guest tonight, anyway?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a secret.
unidentified		Secret.
unidentified		All right, I'll stay tuned.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, it isn't.
		We're going to talk about energy.
		My guest tonight is Richard Perez from Home Power Magazine.
		And we're going to talk about energy.
		God knows, it's probably, it should be at the top of our national priority of things that we ought to be getting done, actually should have had done already.
		But we are going to talk about energy.
		Oh, my, what a topic that is going to be as time goes on and the last of the oil pumps from the ground.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Yes, I are.
		Hello.
		I'm glad to hear you're on the radio again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good to be here.
unidentified		You were talking about the war earlier.
		And, you know, we have a born-again Christian as a president, and he knows that we're living in the last days.
		And if you notice, we've been going through some pretty bad weather.
		And we're supposed to be going through some famines that's going to come about.
		And we're going to have a lot of people dying and a lot of people sick.
		And they said that they have to lower the population because of this.
		And as you know, I guess, I don't know if you've been told, but a lot of our soldiers are sick now.
		And millions of people over there in Iraq are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of people are sick in Iraq, my dear, because of the depleted uranium shells that we, on top of, of course, what the shells did, but the depleted uranium shells that were used, it'll be around for a thousand years or so.
		And there are claims that there are many, many sick already.
		So that certainly is true.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello?
		Hello?
		Is it John?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, John.
unidentified		I want to talk about basic subject static electricity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about it?
unidentified		Well, what I noticed is in the last year or two, I'm calling, by the way, from Springfield, Oregon, and listening to KOH.
unidentified		But anyway, what I've noticed is the, you know, every time you scooch out of your car, normally if it was kind of a cloudy, overcast day, you know, a lot of moisture in the air, high humidity, then you wouldn't get shocked.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
unidentified		Not lately.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're saying static electricity now has broken through the humidity barrier?
unidentified		Something like that.
		I'm educated in electronics.
		I have a two-year electrical engineering degree and just completed a bachelor's in computers.
		But anyway, I was always led to believe that static electricity was, you know, such as running your foot across a carpet.
		Yes.
		It's like the cat or whatever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		But what I'm observing is the static is just more in the air now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's an interesting observation.
		Let's see if anybody else has made it.
		Now, of course, I live here in the high desert where it's single-digit dry most of the time.
		So we live with static electricity as a way of life.
		And we have to always be conscious of it around any electronic devices or anything else.
		In other words, always touch a piece of metal first, and then whatever you intend to proceed to do.
		Otherwise, you might zap it.
		Do any of the rest of you in humid-type climates notice an increase in static electricity?
		I'm not sure what that would mean, but it certainly is an interesting observation.
		On the international line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Erd.
		I got a couple of light items strewing here at Powell River.
		Listening to you on KPNW.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		KPNW.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And where are you?
unidentified		Oh, pretty good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		Paul River is kind of like, you know where Victoria is?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		You hop across the water toward Vancouver, just across about the 40, 50 minute ride.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		Do you know what Mel Branc's Tombstone reads?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What does it read?
unidentified		You know Mel Branc, huh?
unidentified		It reads, that's all, folks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what it says?
unidentified		Yeah, that's what it says.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, he had a grand sense of humor, didn't he?
unidentified		He did.
		I loved him.
		Also, a funny thing happens in Vancouver is we have a symphony of fire every year, you know, when a fireworks end?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And we got policemen on horses.
unidentified		And, of course, people, you know, they sometimes take some booze along with them, not supposed to, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They would be the royal mounted, right?
unidentified		Some of them are royal and some are the Vancouver Police Force.
unidentified		Well, I heard on the news that a drunk hit a horse.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A drunk hit a horse?
unidentified		I'd like to say.
		I mean, I could just imagine swinging in a poor horse state.
		I don't know where he hit him, but I can just see hitting your mouth or something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, the drunk hit the horse.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean socked the horse?
unidentified		He hit the horse with his fist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's really sick.
unidentified		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, I appreciate your call, but that's truly sick.
		It was out Western where somebody decked a horse.
		You remember that?
		Oh, boy.
		First time caller line, you are on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		It's a pleasure to talk with you, Mr. Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		This is Mark out in Seattle.
		And the reason I called was I've been having the feeling recently that I need to dig a hole in my backyard, like a 1950s-style bunker.
		And I'm wondering if any of your really psychic listeners are feeling the same way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you one of my psychic listeners, or is this just sort of an overwhelming thing for you?
unidentified		I would say somewhere in between.
unidentified		I wouldn't say that I'm really psychic, but often I'll have hunches, and if I follow through with them, they turn out to be right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, better to dig and nothing to happen than you to be above ground saying, damn, I sure wish I dug that hole.
unidentified		You know, I kind of feel that way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mm-hmm.
		Well, then dig it, sir.
		I mean, follow your, you know, follow your feelings.
		If you think you should dig a hole, then dig a hole.
		What are you going to put on top of it?
		Boards, dirt?
unidentified		It's probably steel.
		You know, I'm getting older, Art.
		Digging a hole is a lot of hacks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's going to be a lot of work, you know.
unidentified		I kind of feel like, well, if it's the end of the world, maybe I ought to just ride out and meet it head on, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there is the other side.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you could have a heart attack digging the hole to save your life.
unidentified		Well, that's true.
unidentified		That's very true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got to factor that in.
unidentified		Well, I don't know.
unidentified		Maybe if other people feel that way, we'll see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		If I get a bunch of, yes, that man was right, we should be digging a hole.
		I mean, how many of you have that subconscious feeling right now?
		Your inner self telling you, it's time to dig a hole.
unidentified		I need a hole, a deep one with a big piece of the big slab of metal above it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But then you reason with yourself, and you say to yourself, well, if the only way I can survive is in a hole with a big piece of metal above me, then what do I have that's worth going back to?
		Classic dilemma.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
unidentified		How are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm doing fine.
unidentified		Yes, I'd like to talk about how we can't vote for either President Bush or John Kerry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That seems to be the choice, yes.
unidentified		I wish a real American would step up and grab the reins and take this country in the right direction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And do you think that will be either one of these men?
unidentified		Not really.
		No.
		We have a porous border.
		You know, if these people are going to come through this country, I believe that we need to teach them English and they need to become Americans as other generations of immigrants have come to this country and became Americans.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, nevertheless, the sad but true fact is that that is going to be your only realistic choice.
		There may be others running, but I mean, realistically, we both know that not a third party is going to win.
		It's going to be President Bush or John Kerry.
		So you've got to make that choice.
		And faced with that, how do you think you'll choose?
unidentified		You know, I voted for President Bush four years ago.
		I voted for his father when I could first vote in 1992.
		I emailed the president with some things, and I said, if you don't, you know, I believe if you don't do him, you won't get elected.
		But I think that he will.
		It's unfortunate the way that he could say one thing and people can turn it into this big firestorm.
		And then, you know, John Kerry says one thing or does one thing.
		And when on the other side, the Republicans try to do something or say something, all these people say, why are you bothering him?
		Blah, blah, blah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think it would be my guess that the president will be re-elected.
		And that's just my guess.
		It's pure guess.
		But I think the American people, in the end, are rather unlikely to change horses in the middle of a conflict.
unidentified		And I believe because we are fighting an enemy from the seventh century who, just like the president said today, will stop at nothing to turn this world into a Muslim world.
		And I don't understand why the government does not educate this country and the world on what we are fighting.
		Muslim, radical, fundamentalist Muslims.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not every Muslim.
		I'll tell you what I think the reason for that is, sir.
		The president has been very careful to frame the extremist factions from the mainstream Muslim world.
		We don't want a war with the entire Muslim world.
		Hopefully, the mainstream Muslim world does not want a war with us.
		And so the president, for obvious reasons, has been very careful to frame it as only the extremist.
		And I hope that's all it is.
		I really do.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Oh, Art.
		Hi.
		Your fellow listener doesn't want to live in a concrete bunker.
		I live in one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're not going to dig a hole?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you already live in one.
unidentified		Walls are four feet thick, and I have a steel ceiling, heavy gauge steel ceiling.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why have you done this?
unidentified		I haven't.
unidentified		I bought this place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, nevertheless, I mean, you've acquired it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So my question to you is, what are you expecting?
unidentified		I wasn't expecting anything.
unidentified		It was just an inexpensive place to Live at the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, for what reason was it originally built?
unidentified		I think it was a bomb shelter.
unidentified		It was built back in the 60s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you bought somebody's bomb shelter?
unidentified		I guess I did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, so how is it living in a bomb shelter?
unidentified		You can't hear nothing going on outside.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll bet.
		But I mean, how is it from a day-to-day living point of view?
		Is it like anywhere else except just, you know.
unidentified		I live here in the Midwest, and I have to run a dehumidifier constantly to keep the moisture out from the inside of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Yes.
		Well, you're ready for anything, I guess.
unidentified		I guess.
		We had a storm here about two weeks ago.
		I stepped outside.
		It looked like a tornado had run through the neighborhood.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Don't you worry a little bit about flooding?
unidentified		Well, the water in 1993 was four and a half feet deep inside this place.
		I mean, it doesn't really bother me.
		I mean, the water isn't going to hurt anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, haven't you furnished your bomb shelter with, you know, the normal shelter?
unidentified		Well, it's furnished like a regular house.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, four and a half feet of water would really disturb that.
unidentified		Not with concrete floors, concrete ceilings, or walls.
unidentified		I mean, it's fortified.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've never talked to anybody who lived in a bomb shelter before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's pretty cool.
unidentified		The whole front of it faces toward the south.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was it real expensive?
unidentified		No, what I paid for it wasn't real expensive.
unidentified		Nobody else would live in it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, huh?
		So if you woke up one day and, you know, well, what do you do?
		Is it like a submarine door to get your steel open?
unidentified		No, it's got a regular door on it, but it's got one of them garage door type deals on it that's heavy steel.
unidentified		You can roll it down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a blast door.
unidentified		Yeah, that's what it is, I guess.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so how long have you lived in this?
unidentified		I've lived in it about five years now.
unidentified		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And how do you like the life?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you woke up one morning and you opened your blast doors and you looked outside and it was obvious an incredible Holocaust had occurred and there was nothing but ashes up there, what would you do?
unidentified		Oh, probably just shut the door and say the heck with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you very much.
		Remember the bomb shelter days, everybody?
		That was kind of like going under the desk in a way, I suppose.
		If there was an all-out nuclear conflict, I'm not sure that any bomb shelter would be sufficient.
		Not at all.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Art Val.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would be me, yes.
unidentified		How are you, sir?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just spiffy.
unidentified		This is Dave Kenai.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, all the way up in Anchorage.
unidentified		Yeah, Kenai.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I've been listening to you since 1991.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Been a long time.
unidentified		I just wanted to say I don't think we could stand another four years of Bush, but it's pretty scary out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know.
		We're in the middle of a conflict with Iraq.
		And my thinking was, I'm just guessing, but that the American people probably would be disinclined, you know, to change presidents right in the middle of a conflict.
unidentified		You hear that Mount Spur is starting to sparkle up a little bit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mount Spur?
unidentified		Yeah, across the inlet there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
unidentified		It erupted back in 93 and it dumped a whole bunch of ash on us here in Anchorage, but it's...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What's the latest?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are they really expecting it to?
unidentified		Well, it sort of quieted down.
		We had a lot of earthquakes.
		We've got a big lake up there now.
		We never had the lake before, and it's kind of, they had a picture in the paper here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you felt any urge to dig a hole in the ground?
unidentified		No.
		I'm pretty well.
		I'm not afraid of anything except another four years of Bush.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my goodness.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's serious.
unidentified		Yeah, it's, and you know, Alaska is a Republican state.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you firmly intend to vote for John Kerry?
unidentified		Oh, definitely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And company.
unidentified		Nice talking with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, great talking to you, sir.
unidentified		You sound just like you do on the radio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for that.
		Have you ever noticed when people call me, there must be something about the quality of a telephone line that simply will not allow them to believe that it is me.
		On the other hand, along finally came that caller who said, you actually do sound like yourself.
		Well, about 30 seconds, you're on there.
		First time caller line.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
		My name is Jack.
		I'm calling from Los Angeles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Jack, what's on your mind?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Real fast.
unidentified		I saw that thing with Bush on Letterman Thursday night.
unidentified		They showed a videotape of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it is true.
unidentified		Yes, it is.
unidentified		Those ABC News guys coming to see you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, tomorrow night.
unidentified		You could ask them to bring you a copy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, you're right.
		I could, couldn't I?
		Poor President Bush, that's a terrible thing to have said by mistake.
		All right, thank you.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, take care.
		From the high desert in the middle of the night, this is Coast to Coast AM.
		How you doing?
unidentified		A Bumba, A Bumba, A Bumba, A Bumba.
		Can you hear my heartbeat in the front?
		Do you know that the heart of this was...
		The End Be inside of the sound, the smell of a touch.
		There's something inside that we need so much.
		The side of the touch, or the scent of the sound, or the strength of a low root deep in the ground, the wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again, or to fly to the sun without burning a wing, To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing, to have all these things in our memories all, and to use them to come to us to find blood.
		Yeah!
		Ride, ride as your soul, take this place, on this trip, just for me.
		Ride, take a pillow, take my place, up my seat, it's for free.
		Wanna take a ride?
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free 800-825-5033.
		From west to the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach ARC by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you listen carefully tonight, you may well learn something.
		You may save yourself some money, and who knows what you may do if you listen tonight.
		And here's why I say that.
		Quite a number of years ago, I began to have guests on the power question, on our grid, on being self-sufficient, on all kinds of things like that.
		And I learned all kinds of interesting things.
		Like, well, gee, like my appliances, for example, they were at the time about 13 years old.
		You know, the washer, the dryer, the refrigerator, that sort of thing.
		And I had a guest on who said, you know, new appliances take about a third or a fourth the amount of electricity that what you have right now does and then I learned about solar panels and wind power and then I learned about heat we live here in the desert where on average it's up to 105 or six degrees every day now during the two brutal months we have in the desert and so you have to build things not to emanate heat as much as
		possible.
		So I have revolutionized my household.
		I am independent of the grid.
		I have both wind and solar power in abundance, and I have all the equipment to generate it, and that's what I use in my home.
		Then I changed all my appliances.
		Then I went around and changed all my light bulbs.
		Then I took these heat-prone monitors and got them out of here and put in LCD screens.
		And, you know, slowly over the years, from listening to my own program, I've changed the way I live.
		My wife and I have changed the way we live, and you too can do that or part of it if you listen carefully to tonight's guest, who is Richard Perez.
		He is the publisher for Home Power Magazine.
		Now, he facilitates the work of the magazine's editorial, art, advertising, production, sales, web, CD-ROM crews.
		His primary job, he says, is digital janitor.
		He maintains and upgrades Home Power's extensive computer systems and writes articles and editorials.
		Richard has been living and working off-grid since way back in 1970, a long time before I thought about it, with a photovoltaic and wind electric system.
		Richard's goal is to change the way people make electricity.
		So if you listen tonight, you just may learn.
		Ladies and gentlemen, Home Power Magazine's Richard Perez.
		Richard, welcome to the program.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Art, and thanks for having me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you're very welcome.
		I cannot think of a more important subject than what we're about to talk about.
		Now, everybody, I think, remembers California's not-too-distant problems with electricity, where they had brownouts and blackouts and all kinds of troubles with the grid in California, shortages, that kind of thing, and that was a little taste of the grid.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		and just a little taste what kind of shape is the grid in the electric grid across the u.s well i'll tell you it's uh felt better it's uh it's getting old the power plants the transmission line infrastructure was by and large created 20 to 30 years ago 40 in some cases and and even longer the utilities have been running
		and they haven't been investing the kind of money they should have been investing in upgrading the transmission lines and power plants.
		So what we've got here is a basically aged infrastructure that is stretched very, very thin.
		And it's not just a matter of, oh, things like natural disasters, accidents.
		You know, now we have to deal with things like sabotage, fuel supply limitations, and an ever-increasing demand for electricity.
		So what we've got is a situation where this whole structure is poised to fail, and it has failed for, well, things like the financial concerns that caused the California energy crisis.
		These are things I call energy sharking, Enron-like activities.
		also well we're not sure what caused the East Coast Midwest blackout they never didn't they nail that down I thought they did to some small power plant somewhere yes and and I've heard everything from that to it was a tree branch across some high voltage lines I don't think they're ever going to to definitively pin down exactly what caused that.
		But the point is, it is a house of cards, And it is a house of cards that is stressed heavily.
		And any small failure anywhere in this massive grid can bring down whole sections of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let me ask you this.
		Let's back up a little bit.
		You said that they had not.
		I understand that putting in new electric lines where there had not previously been lines would be a challenge in today's world because we have environmentalists and people who don't want you crossing properties and they don't want electric lines near and all the rest.
		But why have they not upgraded the current infrastructure that we have?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's a number of reasons.
		People's objections is a big one.
		It's a not-in-my-backyard syndrome.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I've got that, but that would be respect to new things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		With respect to the lines they have up now, why not put up new wire, new insulators, you know, upgrade?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, upgrading a power line is only slightly less expensive than building it in the first place.
		And what we're talking about here is roughly $1 million a mile.
		In other words, about the same type of money it takes to lay down a freeway, a four-lane interstate highway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very expensive.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yes, extremely expensive.
		Not including the legal work that goes upfront into obtaining a right-of-way for this.
		And the utilities spend roughly half of the money that they take in on their expenses.
		They're spending half of it on the maintenance, upgrading, and establishment of new power lines.
		Currently, we've got about 160,000 miles of high-voltage lines in the USA, and we could use additionally, it depends on which expert you talk to, but somewhere between 25 and 45,000 additional miles.
		And every time I see a notice where a utility wants to put up a line or whatever, the people in the path of the line are going, no, no, no, not in my backyard.
		And believe me, I can see their point.
		You know, I live way off grid, six miles from the nearest place where you could plug in a light off the grid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, then if you're that far from even a connection to the grid, then you had no choice.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, I had no choice.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		And that's what got me started in 1970.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you moved there, had you decided, all right, I'm going to become energy self-sufficient in my new home, and that's what I'm going to do?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, I decided I was going to be 1880s when I moved to the country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you were going to have candles and candles, kerosene lights.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		I hauled our water By hand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And when did that change?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, about six or seven years into the process, I decided that, hey, it was time to join the 20th century because 1880s life is just too damn tough.
		Hauling water gets very, very old.
		But even though I'm six miles from the end of the nearest 120-volt light socket, I have a high-voltage line running three-quarters of a mile from my house.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Oh, really?
		Yes.
		Well, all right.
		So, what have you done?
		You are independent to what degree?
		What have you put up?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, about 4.2 kilowatts of photovoltaic panels.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Excellent.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		1,500-watt wind generator, and then the cord of last resort, which is a 6,000-watt gasoline-powered generator.
		I'd rather eat a bug than turn it on, but if all else fails, I will turn it on.
		And we run it about 150 hours yearly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How often do you have to turn it on?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		How frequently?
		Well, during the summer, not at all.
		And during the spring, not at all.
		And during the fall, but during the winters here in Oregon, I'll run it on average maybe once or twice a week, you know, when extended cloudy periods hang on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		And that does occur in Oregon.
		Okay, so you've got 4,000 watts of electrical energy, and then you must have a do you have a battery bank to store it?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		A big battery bank.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		I can store enough energy to last us for 4.5 to 5 days.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's damn good.
		So what do you have?
		A lot of deep cell type things?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Large storage cell batteries.
		I can store about 65 kilowatt hours of energy in the battery.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's excellent.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And when, you know, second, third day of no sun and no wind, we start conserving.
		And then we start, you know, oh, no, it's not time to vacuum the house.
		Oh, no, it's not time to do the wash.
		It can wait till later.
		And, you know, eventually, if the sun doesn't come out, we'll light up that gas generator.
		We'll burn it for two or three hours.
		And then everything goes on.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me further ask.
		Do you take the output of the battery bank that you have and then convert it into 110 volts or 240 or something like that?
		Do you have inverters, in other words?
		Oh, yes.
		You do, all right?
		Oh, absolutely.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Garner the days when everybody ran a 12-volt household.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		That was the very early days of off-grid living back in the early 80s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in these days, then, you can have the solar panels out there, folks.
		They can be feeding a battery bank, and that battery bank then goes to what's called an inverter, and that changes it into 120 or 240 volts as you would normally have in your home.
		You run it into your house, and then what, Richard?
		What have you done inside the house?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, our house is electrically normal.
		People who walk in there are amazed that we're not on grid.
		We have every particular gigawatt that we want.
		And it's just that whatever we do, we do the research and we spend that additional amount of money, and it's generally not much, probably another 5 to maybe even 15% on some cases, to get the most efficient appliance possible to do that job.
		And we have two refrigerator freezers.
		We have a home theater system.
		We have five computer systems with a network.
		We have satellite internet, compact fluorescent and LED lighting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right for you.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		I mean, the house is cycling.
		Well, when we're getting the sun and we don't really particularly have to pay attention to how much we're using, we can cycle 12 to 17 kilowatt hours of renewable energy every day, which is enough to power a downtown home, you know, with the possible exception of things like an electric stove.
		Our stove is run by propane, our cook stove.
		For heat, we use solar heat in the winter, and we use passive solar cooling in the summer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you say you use solar heat, what, what?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, our home is a passive solar home.
		It's also an active solar home.
		By that, I mean the building is situated in such a way that it catches the south.
		It's got a lot of windows on the south face, and it is facing due south.
		That's the passive angle.
		The building is super insulated.
		It's about R30 in the walls and R60 in the ceilings.
		And it also has an active solar heating system with four flat panels on the roof that drive a thermal slab on the ground level of the building.
		And this slab is concrete and it's faced with beautiful Spanish tiles and it has tubing embedded in the slab.
		So when the sun comes up, the differential thermostat says, hey, the collectors are hotter than the floor.
		Let's pump heat.
		And it runs all day long.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I want to get this straight.
		These tubes are embedded.
		You put them in and then pour concrete over them.
		Is that correct?
		Yes, that's correct.
		And the concrete, I take it, absorbs the heat during the day quite readily and passes it onto these tubes that, what, have water in them or something?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		And plain old water collectors.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, and then that water circulates into what?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Into solar collectors on the roof.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Flat plate collectors.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Four, four by eight foot, four feet wide, eight foot long panels on the roof.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then how does it transfer that heat to your home?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Just from radiation and convection off the slab.
		And the slab will store three to four days of heat for the house once we get it warm.
		And I mean warm.
		My wife Karen and I have walked around on it barefoot and it is distinctly warm to the touch.
		And when there's snow on the ground outside, we used to have a wood stove and we still have one for backup.
		And although we don't burn it much, we cut our wood consumption.
		And we're in a place where we get three and four feet of snow during a winter.
		We've cut our wood consumption from four to five cords a winter down to half a cord of wood per winter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gee, that's more for aesthetics than real heat.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Well, there are times when we'll get two-week and three-week cloudy periods here in Oregon.
		It doesn't happen very often.
		Last winter was a good example.
		In November and December, we had one.
		So we'll light the stove up and burn it for a few hours.
		And because the house is so well insulated, it traps that heat, and then we can cruise for a couple, three days before we have to do it again if the sun doesn't come back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, you're a pretty good example because I live, for example, in a solar paradise where clouds are the rare exception.
		We have almost all sunny, windy days.
		So it's ideal for this kind of thing.
		But you're a better example because you live in Oregon where, well, frankly, there's a lot of rain and a lot of cloudy days, and yet you're doing it anyway.
		So people can't really say, ah, you know, I live in Oregon.
		I can't do it.
		Wrong.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, people just don't live where there isn't enough sunshine to run solar heating for their home and their hot water and also solar power for their appliances, solar electricity.
		Home Power has many readers in the western Washington area around Seattle.
		And, you know, I'm in southern Oregon, where it's pretty much kind of like northern California.
		We get quite a bit of sun.
		But if you can run it in western Washington around the Seattle area, you can run it just about anywhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, you know, these people who put it off because they think they live in areas that won't support it are basically wrong.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		People just don't live where there isn't enough sunshine to do this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		The next question most people would ask is, all right, look, I don't live in a house that was originally designed with the kind of insulation Richard probably has and all the rest of that.
		Suppose I wanted to begin now, and I wanted to begin to change my life, and I own a home, and I've got a backyard, a little backyard, a little front yard.
		What can I do, and how much is it going to cost me?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, the first thing to do is reduce the load.
		And there are two major loads in the house, electrical and thermal.
		In the electrical, well, there's an armada of things we can talk about to reduce that load.
		On the thermal side, it's a bit more difficult because it involves retrofitting the house.
		For example, if the house has single-pane windows, pop them out.
		Put in double-pane windows.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much difference does that make?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, a huge difference.
		A single pane of glass is R0.5.
		A modern window is R3.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		And also, if the house has a lot of north-facing windows.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard, I want to stop you.
		Is there a way that you can help me understand what these R ratings mean?
		In other words, for example, the difference between a 0.3 and a 3 or something like that.
		What does it mean?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		It's huge.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, it is roughly a tenth the transmission of heat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, an R3 would be about a tenth the transmission of a 0.3?
		Yes.
		And a normal window, a single pane window, is a 0.3.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		It was 0.3 to 0.5.
		It depends on the thickness of the glass.
		It depends on a variety of factors, like outside wind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But basically, pretty pathetic.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Pretty, yeah, it's almost not there as far as heat is concerned.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Heat goes right through it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Heat goes right through it.
		All right, Richard, hold tight right there.
		Richard Perez from Home Power Magazine is my guest.
		And if you would like to live independent of the grid, independent, and I might add, in the long run, a lot more cheaply, then you're going to want to listen very closely this morning.
		Richard Perez from Home Power Magazine on Coast to Coast AM, roaring at you in the darkness from the high desert.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		Hugo, Hooker, Jacka, Hooker, Hooker, Hooker, Jacka, Hooker, Hooker, Hooga, Jacka, Hooker, Hooker, Hugo, Double Ben.
		We better be Jacka, Hookah, Hooker, you just don't know what to do.
		I'm not sure you're in love with me.
		It's as sweet as candy.
		It's tasty, it's on my mind.
		Girl, you got me thirsty for another cup of wine.
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach ART by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know about you, but I've always wondered about R ratings.
		You know, contractors and people like that, people sell homes, always throw around R ratings, and I've never quite known what they mean.
		For example, can you convert an R rating to a typical family's savings in, I don't know, heating bills or electricity or whatever?
		How much does an R rating really mean?
		In a moment, we'll try and find out.
unidentified		In a moment, we'll try and find out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As I said, Richard, contractors and people who sell homes are always throwing around R ratings.
		It's got R so-and-so.
		Is there some way that you can translate in a way that we'll all understand what these R ratings mean in terms of, I don't know, how much electricity you might save or how much heating bill you might save?
		Because it doesn't mean a R, whatever.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's not really an absolute value.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		In physics, R is really what they call 1 over U, which is thermal conductivity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, you're not in the land that people will understand.
		All right, let me try this.
		Let me frame it differently.
		Let's take a ceiling, for example.
		If I had an R20 ceiling and I went to an R50 ceiling or R40 ceiling, in other words, what I'm trying to get at is...
		I'd have half the heat loss.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		You'd cut it in half.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's something I can understand.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		So, and you know, building codes generally, well, here on the west coast in Oregon, they specify R19 and the walls and ceilings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		And that doesn't mean that's all the insulation that you can have there, but that's what they specify on new construction.
		Old construction can have anything from no insulation at all, just, you know, walls with a dead airspace in there.
		And, you know, that's going to be like R2 or so, up to modern construction R19.
		But this doesn't mean you have to stop there.
		For example, if you've got an older home and say it was built in the 50s or 40s and it doesn't have 2x6 studs and the walls has 2x4 studs and the insulation is barely there when it was installed and now it's barely there at all.
		When it's time to paint it or reside it and you strip the old siding off, you've got an excellent opportunity there to lay foam.
		This is basically a foam-based insulative material, 4x8 sheets, aluminum foil on both sides.
		Lay up one inch, two inches of foam, and then put on the new siding.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that would make how much difference?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that would give you roughly double the insulation that you had before.
		Depending on the foam products, you can go from R12 to R20 doing this.
		And in our home, it's conventional 2x6 construction with conventional foam in the conventional fiberglass insulation in the walls.
		And then we added the foam outside before we added the siding material.
		And we doubled up on the foam on the roof.
		And by doing this, we came out with R30 walls and an R60 roof.
		And the thing virtually doesn't leak heat.
		It's very efficient.
		We live up in the mountains of Oregon, and it's cool at night.
		We're at altitude.
		So what we do is open all the windows at night in the summertime, let the cool mountain breezes roll through, chill the house down.
		In the morning when we get up, we close them.
		It can be 90, 95 degrees outside, and it'll be 70, 75 degrees inside.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's very impressive.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		And so insulation is a two-edged sword.
		Not only does it save you heat in the winter, but it reduces your summer cooling load, which is critical in areas like where you live, Art, and in the South.
		So insulation is not just for people who live in the freezing north, it's for people who also live where it gets hotter in hell in the summer.
		And you don't have to stop with R19.
		You can go beyond that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, any, I mean, obviously, you know, each situation is going to vary, but is there a way to understand the expense involved in doing this if you were, say, replacing your siding?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much more am I going to spend?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, just replacing the siding, you'll probably add 20% or 25% to the bill by putting this insulation underneath it.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		If you're building a house from scratch and you want to do this energy-efficient insulative number on it and use good windows to boot, 5% to 7% of the cost of the house would be put into this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not that bad.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Not that bad at all.
		You're going to get it back in the first five cooling and heating seasons versus burning, well, whatever you're burning for heat and whatever you're using, usually electricity for cooling.
		So, you know, the first step towards any kind of energy self-sufficiency and any kind of sane energy picture is reducing the load.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It may have been you, Richard.
		I'm not sure.
		But at some point in the past, somebody like you or you made the statement that my appliances, which were, I don't know, 13, 14 years old, compared to new ones, washers, dryers, refrigerators, that sort of thing, compared to the new ones, would save some incredible amount of energy.
		I just could not believe it.
		And I checked on it, and sure as hell, you or whoever said it was exactly right.
		I think it was you.
		And I went out and bought new appliances, and oh my goodness, what a difference.
		What a difference.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Incredible differences.
		All right, let's just look at a light bulb, for example.
		Fairly common item.
		Folks have them all over the place.
		They leave them on.
		A light bulb is 94% of the electricity you stick into it comes off as heat, not light.
		So it's actually a better electric heater than it is a light.
		And if you're in a summer cooling area where you're running air conditioning and you have incandescent lights in your house, you're really nuts.
		You're working against yourself here.
		You go to a compact fluorescent light, which is delivering as much light for anywhere From a half to a third the amount of energy in, and it's producing very little heat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and I think we should catch people up on something, Richard.
		Some time ago, gee, just a few years ago, incidescent, or rather, the newer lighting, was very, it was kind of rare, and they were oddly shaped, weird bulbs.
		Well, people should go back to the stores in their area and look, because now they're producing these incredible new bulbs.
		Well, they just screw in like any other bulb.
		They're made more conventionally looking now than they used to be.
		They're shorter, stubbier, easier to put in all over the place.
		And they're amazing because, oh, say, what, a 60-watt bulb might burn 18 watts in electricity instead of 60.
		It's amazing.
		Plus, you can put your hand on it.
		It's cool.
		Plus, it lasts how much longer, Richard?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, seven to ten times longer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Seven to ten times longer.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and these things are not expensive anymore.
		When they first came out, they were, you know, $8, $12, $15 pop.
		Now, $8 to $10 will buy you a five-pack at your local discount store.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
		I mean, this is going to change the world by itself.
		If everybody went out and bought these new bulbs, I guess we would cut our energy load by probably a third across the U.S., wouldn't we?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Our residential energy load, you bet.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Residential energy in the U.S. is about a third, commercial is about a third, and industrial is about a third of what the grid makes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's interesting.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		We could eliminate somewhere between five to seven major coal-fired power plants if America's residences would get rid of the light bulb and adopt compact fluorescence.
		And guess what?
		There's something else coming online that's even better than compact fluorescent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're kidding.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yep, light-emitting diodes, LED lighting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yes, this stuff is as efficient as the compact fluorescent is to the incandescent, the LED is that much more efficient than the compact fluorescent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, they're beginning to make these folks now in 110-volt fixtures.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Right, right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		These LED arrays.
		And, man, they're incredible.
		I mean, I've got a few of them around here, and they use how much power for the equivalent of whatever?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, for a, say, a 40-watt reading lamp on your desk, you'd use a watt and a half.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A watt and a half.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Right, and they make virtually no heat whatsoever.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		And not only that, they have lifetimes in the hundreds of thousands of hours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And these are now sold just about everywhere, aren't they?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yes, most discount houses, once again, you can pick them up.
		And they're still a bit spotty as to where you can find them, and they're still a wee bit expensive in comparison with compact fluorescence.
		But they're coming on strong.
		And they are producing a specie of white light.
		It's great to work by, and we use them, and they work well.
		And they inherently run on low voltage DC, but they now have models that run on conventional 117 volts AC pipeline.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it uses so little power, you'd be hard put to even measure it.
		I mean, they're incredible.
		Now, what percentage of the American people thus far do you think have made the transition from the conventional bulbs people go out and buy?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		I'd say a few.
		I'm betting you somewhere around a third of the folks have compact fluorescents in their house, and more and more are using them daily.
		LED is just a tiny fraction of the population.
		So we still got a lot of work to do here.
		And this is just the light bulb.
		The house is full of other appliances, washing machines, refrigerators.
		Refrigerators are a prime example.
		A modern Energy Star refrigerator is going to consume somewhere between a half and a third of the amount of energy as one that was made, oh, say, 10 years ago, and a quarter of the energy of one that was made 20 years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That blew me away.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so Aunt Millie's, when she died and left you her old Kelvinator, well, God bless her, and it was nice that she left it to you, but believe me, you don't want to plug it in.
		And folks, you know, they take the old refrigerator and they do things like stick it out in the garage where it's hotter than hell all day and let it run out there.
		These refrigerators are consuming an incredible amount of energy.
		For example, my wife Karen decided she wanted another refrigerator.
		And for years, we had this 12-volt alternative energy refrigerator that cost a lot of money.
		And it worked great, but it was too small.
		So we went energy shopping for a refrigerator on the internet.
		And we paid very close attention to the Energy Star labels and the tests on these refrigerators.
		We wound up with a 27 cubic foot refrigerator that in our application uses 1.5 to 1.6 kilowatt hours of electricity a day.
		And this is a, you know, in terms of solar electricity, it's about four modules worth of electricity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		1.5 kilowatts per day.
		Can you compare that then to the one you had?
		Well, no, not the one you had, but let's say one that's 15 or 20 years old.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		It would be using roughly 15 to 20 years old, roughly four times that amount of energy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Four times.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And, you know, see, the grid and America's energy infrastructure has lulled us into thinking, well, you know, a kilowatt hour of energy, national average is about 7.5 or so cents per kilowatt hour.
		So, you know, to run that refrigerator, our new energy efficient model is about a dime a day on grid.
		Okay, and say to run Aunt Millie's old Kelvinator, well, you know, it's 40 cents a day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A dime a day to 40 cents a day.
		And then multiply this by all these light bulbs and all these dryers and washers and refrigerators and all the rest of it.
		And then you're also talking about heat, the amount of heat.
		So, this energy star thing is no joke.
		It's a real McCoy, huh?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is, definitely.
		I wouldn't go looking for any electric appliance without consulting the little sticker that's right there in the showroom on the wall, and it'll tell you how much this thing is going to consume.
		And our research here at Home Power, you know, we not only buy these things, but we also install them, and then we put instruments on them and run them and see if it actually does what they say it's going to do.
		And we found them to be incredibly accurate.
unidentified		Really?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, normally the claims they make are pretty good?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yes, they are excellent.
		And, you know, you can do other things to your refrigerator, too.
		For example, we have a pantry that is adjacent to our kitchen that is insulated out of the house, so it gets cold in the winter.
		And we, instead of putting the new refrigerator in the kitchen, we put it in the pantry where it is, you know, in the 50s during the winter or even sometimes lower than that.
		And this resulted in even more savings on the refrigerator because it's operating in a cool location.
		So, you know, it's not only the appliance, but it's how you use it, where you locate it, and just obvious things like, you know, don't leave the TV on if nobody's in the room watching it.
		Don't leave lights burning in rooms where nobody is present.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it makes sense.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just common sense.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, common sense sort of stuff.
		And what we found is that we can walk into the average grid household by changing a few light bulbs, maybe even changing a few major appliances, and paying a little common sense to electrical use.
		We can cut the electricity bill by at least 25% in a month.
		And with a little more care and spending a bit more money, we can cut it in half.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let's take the real plunge here.
		Let's say that I'm the average Joe out there right now, and I want to get off the grid.
		I mean, I just flat want to get off the grid.
		That's my goal, to completely get off the grid.
		How much am I going to spend to do that?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you did your homework up front and you've done an efficiency job on the house, it is dumb to go solar without doing the efficiency job and do the efficiency job first.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		If you do that, you're going to spend less money on a solar electric system than you would on a good used car.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're kidding.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		No.
		No.
		The solar electric system that we have that powers our house is larger than normal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How good a used car?
		In other words, what might somebody spend to actually be independent of the grid?
		Let's nitty-gritty time.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		$15,000 to $20,000.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a really good used car.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's a good used car.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		But, you know, at the same time, I see mountain cabins of two.
		We profile them in Home Power, or retirees in the mountains, where a solar electric system would cost them $4,000 to $6,000.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But let's stay with the, oh, I don't know, $20,000.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's say $20,000.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, $20,000 max.
		And, you know, our system, we spend a bit more than that, but we're larger than normal.
		Also, we bought a lot of our modules back when they were more expensive.
		They're cheaper now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hear that.
		That is getting better.
		But all right, $20,000.
		Let's say we spend $20,000.
		We're off the grid.
		How long is it going to take me or that person, that person, to recover their $20,000?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, number one, I wouldn't recommend going off the grid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's interesting.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm off the grid because I'm six miles from the end of the power line.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I got that.
		Why not?
		Why not recommend it?
		Why not?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, the grid needs your help.
		I'm serious.
		It does.
		We now have 38 states with net metering laws.
		Net metering laws say that if you put up a solar electric or a wind electric system and you maintain your connection to the grid, that you can sell the grid electricity at the same price that they charge you for electricity.
		So if they're charging you a dime a kilowatt hour, you can sell it to them for a dime a kilowatt hour.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's fair.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		That is extremely fair.
		And the point here is that I'm off-grid by six miles.
		I mean, I asked the power company how much to run the lines in.
		I had to do it.
		I knew I couldn't afford it, but I had to ask.
		And they said, oh, about $200,000.
		This was in the mid-70s.
		They said $280,000 unless there's something kinky going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you mean if it's the average installation?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, it was per mile.
		And they said, if there's like mountains and creeks and right-of-way and all this, it gets kinky and the prices go up.
		So I thought, $280,000, fine.
		And we've got roughly about $30,000 invested in our system over the last 20 years.
		And so I figure in my case, hey, it saved me a lot of money right off.
		But there are times during the summer, many times during the summer, when we've got electricity coming out of our nose.
		We just, we've sized our system such that during partially cloudy days and during the winter, we can get full quick and we have plenty of energy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Richard, hold tight right there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're at the top of the hour, and we'll be right back and continue with Richard Perez from Home Power.
unidentified		Now, the midst across the window hides the light.
		But nothing's like the color of the lights that shine.
		Electricity so fine.
		When all the world is here, the questions come to be.
		We're such a simple mind.
		Oh, please, please tell me what's wrong.
		I know it sounds absurd.
		Please tell me who I am.
		I said, now what would you say?
		I'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, a fanatical criminal.
		Oh, would you sign up your name?
		We'd like to be your acceptable, respected, or resentable, or vegetable.
		Oh, drink, drink, drink, yeah.
		Oh, hey.
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Arc Bell from east to the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west to the Rockies, call ART at 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art Bell by calling your in-country spread access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard Perez is my guest.
		He's from Home Power Magazine.
		They're the ones who can tell you how to get energy-independent.
		But funny thing, you know, at the end of the last hour, I asked Richard about, you know, going off grid.
		And he said, oh, no.
		No, I don't recommend people go off the grid.
unidentified		Because the grid needs you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, we're going to explore that a little bit.
		I wonder if he was being facetious or if, in fact, the grid really does need you.
		We'll find out in a moment.
unidentified		We'll find out in a moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The grid needs you.
		You remember the thing with Uncle Sam?
		You know, they still have it, right?
		Uncle Sam needs you with the pointing finger?
		Maybe we need Carrie Kiliwatt or something, you know, a guy with a beard, maybe, and hair standing, of course, straight up, you know, like he'd been just hit by 5,000 volts, and he could say the grid needs you.
		Anyway, we're going to find out about that right now.
		Richard, what did you mean?
		Were you being facetious when you said the grid needs you?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm dead serious.
		The grid needs you.
		It needs all of us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't get it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, a guy who runs Home Power Magazine ought to be urging people to be energy completely self-sufficient, you would think.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you can be energy self-sufficient and still be on-grid.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		See, a fact of life is that every renewable energy system has periods during most days when it's producing more than the people are able to store in their batteries if they were off-grid, or more than they can consume.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		This is why we have regulators on the PVs to keep from overcharging the batteries.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you mean then that the grid needs your electricity?
		Yes.
		That's what you meant.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		It needs your surplus generation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You need to be clear about that.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you want people to put it up, but then you want them to share it with the grid.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yes, share it with your neighbors.
		Help the grid out.
		The grid is stretched.
		Utilities call this distributed generation.
		And it makes the grid more reliable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, it would.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		It reduces the load on the grid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure it would.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		And they will pay you what they're charging you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, some of them will.
		You know my story.
		I mean, I put up the solar panels and wind, all the rest of it, and I went down to my electric cooperative.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they said, oh, sure, we'll buy from you, but we'll buy only at the wholesale price while selling to you at the retail price.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I thought that was, well, actually, I just walked out.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Are you in the state of California?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nevada.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Nevada.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, like I said, there are 38 states with these net metering laws.
		Just before Clinton left the White House, we had a national net metering law in committee where it died.
		And of course, under the president administration, it's not even there anymore.
		But the point is, soon this will be a national law.
		But currently, it is a law state by state.
		And the fine print is different in every state.
		In some states, you can actually get a check from the utility.
		In other states, the best you can do is break even.
		But you can break even.
		And, you know, say you have a solar electric system, and the kids are at school, and you're off at work, and during the day, it's spinning your electric meter backwards.
		You're pumping that energy onto the grid, and you're doing it at the grid's peak demand time.
		And so this is helping out the grid.
		And, you know, I've had many meetings with utility people, and it's been a real uphill battle in every state.
		We worked for four years to get the law passed in Oregon, Oregon's net metering law.
		And it was an uphill battle here.
		They didn't want us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, I'm sure.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they would just, oh, no, no, no.
		I mean, they've got this century-long paradigm.
		We make it, you buy it.
		And all of a sudden, we're going, hey, wait a minute, we can make electricity any place we can put up a solar panel.
		And with the modern utility inner tie inverters, we can shove this energy right back at you on the grid.
		Send that meter backwards.
		And this frightened them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure it did.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		And so, you know, but now they're starting to come around, particularly in some states.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What changed to bring them around?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, what changed is the advantages of solar electricity.
		Number one, here is a power generating source that the utility gets to use the energy from, and it did not invest one red cent of its operating capital in this.
		You invested the money in it.
		They didn't.
		So here we have free electricity for them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's think about this for a second.
		If they're forced to buy at the same rate that you pay, in other words, retail they're actually I mean, that's got to be a losing proposition for them because, like every other business, they buy electricity at a certain rate and then resell it at an inflated rate, hence that's how they make their money, their profit.
		That's where their profit comes from.
		So I just can't see how you would convince them that for them it would be a good deal.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's going to require a change in the utility's mentality.
		You know, the utilities 100 years from now are not going to be power producers.
		They're going to be power brokers.
		In fact, they are this already.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they really are now.
		That's why I asked you the question.
		In other words, what argument do you make to make it attractive for them?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, the argument I used on a major utility in Oregon was, do you want to keep these people as customers?
		All right?
		I can throw an additional 20% on the system in terms of money.
		I can install batteries, and I can tell you to take your electric meter and shove it.
		So do you want to keep these people as customers?
		And the advantage is you get this clean electricity, and I'm talking clean.
		No carbon dioxide, no carbon monoxide, no nuclear waste, no acid rain.
		I'm talking clean.
		You're getting it on peak.
		You're not paying a cent for the generating capability of this.
		There's lots of advantages for it.
		So much so that in countries that are a bit more advanced than we are, notably Japan and Germany, in Japan, if you put up a utility intertide photovoltaic system, the government will pay for half of it right out of the box.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that a fact?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		That's a fact.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		In Germany, similar type incentives are available, so much so that photovoltaic modules that are being made in the States here or are being made by multinational corporations here in the States are getting hard to get a hold of because they're going to Japan and Germany because these people are paying more for them than we will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do you think the Japanese and the Germans are so forward-thinking compared to us?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, in Japan, it's an easy thing.
		I mean, they're a petroleum importing company, country.
		In other words, their energy sources are all imported.
		And in Germany, it's due in part to a large Green Party movement there, which is controlling the government and directing it.
		And they say it's better for the country, and there's a number of reasons, environmental, political.
		I mean, you know, the sun is very democratic.
		It shines on everyone every day.
		And it doesn't say, you know, nobody's going to war over sunshine.
		It's just good for the country to do this.
		And so that's the argument they're using in Germany.
		And they're putting up PVs much faster than we are.
		And in Japan, oh, all their energy is imported.
		The sun delivered free daily.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's get political for a second.
		I think we all know who President Bush is by now and what direction he's taken the country.
		And we don't know as much about Kerry, do we?
		Or do we?
		How much difference is there going to be in the next four years of energy policy compared to, you know, bearing in mind that one or the other would be elected or re-elected?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, as far as the energy policy of George Bush, it was a total disaster.
		I mean, Dick Cheney won't even tell us what went on on the secret backroom meetings with Ken Lay of Enron fame that structured his entire energy program.
		So we don't even know what went on there.
		What we do know is that oil has hit $44 a barrel, highest ever, and it isn't likely to come down.
		We've seen an end to cheap oil, period.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you really believe that's true?
		They talk a little vaguely about maybe energy prices coming down, perhaps after the summer, but by and large, you don't think that's going to happen, do you?
		You believe that the energy prices have gone up and they're going to keep going up and they're not going down again.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		That's right.
		We have a worldwide natural gas shortage.
		We have a worldwide petroleum shortage.
		We're demanding more of it all the time.
		We've passed the peak of easy to get at stuff, easy to mine, easy to pump, easy to transport.
		It's going to get much, much more expensive, and in transportation particularly.
		Now in electricity, well here in America we've got a lot of coal and we can keep mining it and we can keep burning it for a while.
		But the environmental effects of doing this are becoming increasingly obvious.
		The price of electricity has been going up.
		The new power plants that utilities have been installing are, by and large, gas-fired and gas is going up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard, what's happening to oil is obvious.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How closely linked to the price of oil is the price of electricity?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, during the last three years, the utilities have installed more petroleum-fired plants than ever before, a great increase.
		So they're burning it, too.
		But it's primarily transportation that is burning it.
		And, I mean, it's a wonderful energy source.
		You know, 20 gallons of gas in the tank is a huge hit of energy.
		And we're not likely to replace this anytime soon.
		But at the same time, the number of cars is going up.
		The number of miles people are driving in these cars is also going up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The number of nations with cars, with citizens with cars is going up.
		If people could see China, They'd get a cold chill right down their spine, what's coming in.
		And there's going to be a lot of international competition for what energy resources are left, right?
		I mean, we're not the only ones chasing after Mideast oil.
		It's going to be China and the rest of the world as well.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And, you know, with George Bush's energy policy, things are going to keep going that way.
		And I fully expect to see a huge raise in gas prices after the election.
		I think they're being kept low now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You want to guess at how high gas is going to go after the election?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		I can see well over $3 a gallon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, that'll change a lot.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		It'll make people start looking at these new hybrid electric vehicles.
		These things are just amazing.
		I mean, it's an incremental step.
		Bottom line is we don't need to be burning petroleum for energy anymore.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I saw a network piece on the cars that you're talking about, and it's interesting.
		They kind of took the other side of it, Richard, and they said, look, these hybrid cars are very interesting.
		And sure enough, it's fewer miles, or more miles per gallon, I guess I ought to say, you know, substantially more.
		But they said, at the end of the day, with the maintenance and the whatever all the hybrid takes that other cars don't, you're not going to pay for it in the lifetime of the car.
		You're aware of that report, right?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not true or true?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		It's horsepucky.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Horsepucky.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it's horsepucky.
		These things don't require any more maintenance than any other motor vehicle.
		As a matter of fact, I have a Toyota Prius, which is a hybrid vehicle.
		It gets 60 miles to the gallon downtown.
		All you do is fill up the gas tank and change the oil every 7,000 miles.
		It doesn't even have a grease fitting on it.
		You don't maintain the batteries.
		They're sealed in the back.
		You don't do anything to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, on behalf of all the people out there who drive cars, I want to ask you a couple of questions.
		I've never test-driven one of those.
		I've seen a few of them on the road.
		How is it?
		For driving, for acceleration, for air conditioning, whatever all the American people are used to, how is this new hybrid?
		You're driving it.
		Tell us.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, the air conditioner kicks butt.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		I'm telling you, I've never had a car that cooled down as fast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		And I've never seen a car where I pull up to a stoplight or a stop sign and I'll hit the brakes.
		The engine goes dead.
		The air conditioner keeps running on the battery.
		It has more pickup than a Toyota Corolla or any other mid-sized sedan.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does it really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you can be away quickly from the stop sign.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Because when you stomp on this thing to get onto the freeway, the engine goes to the max and you still have this incredible 60-horsepower electric motor, which also has got infinite torque at low RPM, and it just goes right onto the freeway.
		Passes at freeway speeds.
		The thing is so darn quiet that you've got to be careful not to get speeding tickets in it.
		And it's a $20,000 brand new car.
		I had to stand in line for six months to get this thing.
		I ordered it.
		Six months later, it finally got delivered.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No kidding.
		I've got ordered so far.
		No kidding.
		So, I mean, you really think then these people who are issuing these reports are nuts.
		They're wrong.
		They're just flat wrong.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and they're also basing their pricing at $1.50 to $1.70 a gallon on gasoline.
		When gasoline starts hitting $3 plus, then the situation changes.
		Just the same way where solar electricity, you know, years ago was pretty expensive, and it didn't look like a particularly good deal.
		But as electric rates climb and solar rates come down, it looks better and better all the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
		So at any rate, back to the car for a second.
		You're perfectly satisfied in every way, and you're getting 60 miles to the gallon with this.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, I wouldn't say I was perfectly satisfied.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		I underwent an intense retraining program when I first stepped into the thing and started to drive it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In what way?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's very different.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		The transmission never shifts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, go back to that.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		The transmission doesn't shift.
		There are no gears.
		It's got a constantly variable transmission.
		There is no change from first to second to third.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It just goes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		And it took some training on jackrabbit starts and jackrabbit stops.
		We don't do that in it anymore.
		We plan ahead.
		Oh, yeah, the light's turning red up there.
		I think I'll take my foot off the gas and kind of coast and whatever.
		And then it's got a wonderful display on the dash that says, oh, you've just hit 99 plus miles to the gallon because you're not caulking it.
		And so, I mean, it's got feedback.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it's giving you feedback all the time about how many miles per gallon you're utilizing?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		That is extremely cool.
		And it's telling you when the electric motor is working, when the gas motor is working, when the gas motor is charging the batteries, when regenerative braking, when you stop.
		If you hit the brakes a little bit, then the electric motor that's in there recharges the battery.
		In other words, you recoup some of the energy you expended on accelerating the vehicle when you decelerate.
		Now, if you stomp the brakes real hard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me get this straight.
		They capture the energy, and there would be energy in a stop because of friction.
		But that's fascinating.
		And then they store that stopping energy in the batteries.
		Is that right?
		Yes.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Nickel-metal hydride batteries.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		No cadmium, very low toxicity, all sealed up, about 30 kilowatt hours of energy stored in the batteries.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's really cool.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		It is extremely cool.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		These batteries, it's a question everybody always asks.
		Now with the newer batteries, how long before you've got to replace them, Richard?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Toyota puts a seven-year Warranty on this battery.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then the cost to replace when you finally have to?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Whoa, I have no idea on that.
		You'd have to talk to Toyota.
		I have no idea how much it would cost to replace that battery.
		But since the entire vehicle is $20,000, I would say somewhere between maybe $1,000, maybe $1,500 to replace this battery.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		God, that is such a cool concept.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To use stopping power, for example.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's only stopping power when you climb a hill.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		You go down the other side.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		And you expend energy to climb that hill, and you recoup some of that energy as you coast down the other side.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're actually running something and charging a battery as your car goes down a hill.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because that's generating energy.
		All right.
		Richard Perez is my guest from Home Power Magazine.
		And I'm learning all kinds of things that I didn't know about the world around me, the latest being this car.
		That is so cool.
		When you consider it stopping, going down hills, all of that is a potential energy generator, and he's using it.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		Baby, when you need a smile to never shadow, there's no way to come to me.
		Baby, you'll see.
		Who's gonna love you, baby?
		Who's gonna love you through the night?
		Who's gonna love you, mama?
		Who's always there to be?
		Who's gonna love you, love you?
		Who's gonna love you, like you?
		Who's gonna love you, love you?
		Who's gonna love you, love you?
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And Richard Perez from Home Power Magazine.
		And it's really, this really is fascinating stuff.
		Just in case you didn't know, and I certainly didn't, about these new cars, we're kind of into that.
		Another way is that you can save power.
		Or maybe you'd rather think of it this way.
		Save money.
		The End You know how I see it?
		I see it this way.
		People don't have to go out and convert their house immediately to, you know, be off the grid or sharing with the grid or whatever.
		And they don't have to buy a new car right away or appliances or light bulbs or anything else.
		But it seems to me, Richard, that as life goes along, why, the next time you buy a light bulb, you buy one of these instead of rushing out and replacing everything.
		The next time an appliance goes out, you go and you look for the energy star.
		The next time you go to buy a car, you take a good hard look at the kind of car you just talked about.
		In other words, you do these things as the time for the decision about these things comes to pass naturally, huh?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		That's it.
		You know, I've been working on this for, gee, over 30 years now.
		And there are still, you know, things I'm replacing, things I'm changing.
		And no, you don't have to change your life overnight.
		But there are things that you can do overnight, like turn off those light bulbs in rooms where nobody's at.
		And, you know, there are mindful things that you can do.
		And the big ticket items, you know, converting to solar power, buying a new energy-efficient vehicle.
		When the time comes to get a new car or to buy a used one or the time comes to reside your house or re-roop it, that's the time to put some insulation in.
		So, you know, a bit at a time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think for the average person, Richard, that the car you talked about, for example, now today, in today's world, 60 miles per gallon, man, that means a lot to people, Richard.
		That means a whole lot.
		60 miles a gallon for a lot of people who commute even an hour a day.
		Think how much money that could mean.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		And, you know, and even better.
		I mean, say there's a co-worker that lives half a mile or a mile from your house.
		Pick him up and take him to work with you in your energy-efficient vehicle.
		Carpool, drive less.
		You know, there's all kinds of things that we can do.
		And, you know, back on the vehicles again, these hybrid gasoline vehicles are just great, but they're an interim step.
		They're still using gasoline.
		I mean, this is petroleum that is basically prehistoric plants that have molded for hundreds of thousands of years under the earth.
		We're pumping it up and we're releasing this carbon into the atmosphere, global warming.
		We can short-circuit that whole cycle and burn carbon that we fixed last year in plants.
		For example, biodiesel.
		Two of the folks who work here at Home Power have biodiesel-powered rigs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Meaning they're using what?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		They're using french-fried fat from the local McDonald's.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Strain the chunks out, give it a little treatment, and they do it in a garage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If a person goes to McDonald's and wants to buy their excess fat, how are they usually greeted?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		It depends.
		These days it's getting hard to find because more and more folks are doing it.
		But basically, it is a vegetable oil.
		And plants such as canola or rapeseed can be grown specifically as a fuel crop.
		And, you know, we grow it this summer and fix the carbon as the plants grow, and then we release the carbon throughout the year and do it again next year.
		This is a one-year carbon cycle instead of a 200,000-year carbon cycle.
		Much better for the environment.
		Also, we don't have to go to places like Iraq to get this oil.
		We can grow it in Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas.
		We can grow it just about anywhere, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Richard, since we're such gigantic consumers of energy compared to the entire rest of the world, then why do you imagine, Richard, that other countries are so much greener than we are?
		Why is Japan and Germany and all these other countries so you would think we'd be leading the charge in the world toward a greener, cheaper, more energy-efficient atmosphere, but we're not at all.
		How come?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Leadership, the leadership of this country for Well, it's not what it's about.
		It's about dollars and corporations and oil.
		And I mean, our president is an oil man.
		A failed oil man, but an oil man nonetheless.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're not a big Bush guy, are you?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm not.
		And, you know, I'm not a big Kerry fan either.
		But, you know, this coming election, I'm just urging people to vote for anybody but Bush.
		You know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, look, look here.
		You know, there's only two.
		We had Ross Pro once.
		He was almost realistic.
		Other than that, though, realistically, Richard, there's only two men that you can vote for who are going to win.
		One of them is going to win.
		So I take it that you're probably a Kerry voter.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that would be a yes.
		But, you know, Kerry has some good energy policies.
		He's pushing for things like biodiesel and domestically made fuels from plants.
		And, you know, I've heard all kinds of things about this.
		How many acres would it take to grow all the gasoline that this country needs?
		That kind of what-if mentality is really doing us a disservice.
		We're not going to convert this country's electricity from coal or nukes or natural gas overnight.
		We're not going to convert this country's vehicles from gasoline and diesel fuel overnight.
		This is going to take a long time.
		But it's going to take forever unless we get started.
		And that's the point.
		And it's just like you said, you don't have to go out and do all these things at once.
		It's just next time it comes around, make the decision for something that is ecologically sound, sustainable, and renewable.
		And that's what the whole thing with home power is about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's move that.
		Yeah, okay.
		Richard, for a second, let's talk about, let's go back to oil itself.
		We've got an oil president.
		I think most people agree with that.
		Yeah, oil.
		We're getting a lot of it from the Middle East.
		There's been an argument about Alaska, and I, for one, would like to understand, if you can fairly relate to us, what Alaskan oil means or might mean, and if they go ahead with this big fight.
		You know, they're having this big fight over Anwar.
		If they were to get to Anwar, how much oil might be at Anwar?
		And where are we kind of with oil right now?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Somewhere between six to nine months of what we use.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what Anwar would be?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's not much.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		That's not much.
		And the difficulty in doing it is enormous.
		We're talking about pipelines in a very harsh environment across a very long distance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it can be done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've done it already.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		We've done it already, yeah.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		And we've done things such as that before in countries, not in the USA, in other places.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I hear a lot of people talking about peak oil.
		You said it yourself earlier in the program.
		You said we have already pulled out the cheapest oil we're going to pull out of the ground, peak oil.
		We really are there?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we're there.
		We're there now.
		We're going to see oil shortages probably as close as five years from now to the point where it gets very expensive to get the oil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you sure about that?
		I mean, a lot of people argue with you, Richard.
		A lot of people argue, and they say this is such crap.
		We've got oil coming out our ears.
		There's more oil than we need.
		It's just, you're sure it's not true.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		It's not true.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		For example, just recently, National Geographic magazine, their cover story, I believe it was the June issue of this year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		The end of cheap oil.
		I mean, I'm not alone in saying this.
		The apologists for it are basically oil producers and oil men, the people that are saying, oh, we can keep doing this forever.
		No, we can't do it forever.
		We've already, you know, within maybe it was two years ago, maybe it'll be two to five years from now where we pass the absolute peak.
		But the main thing is that our appetite for this black goo is just going nowhere but up.
		We're using more of it all the time.
		And the supply of it, well, you know, it went down into the ground 200,000 years ago.
		It's going to have an end.
		Now, whether the end was two years ago or five years from now, I don't really know.
		I don't think anybody really knows.
		But the point is, it is going to End.
		And experts, both sides will tell you a number of things.
		The bottom line is we need to use as little as possible about this.
		And on Kerry, you know, he's saying he wants to see 20% of America's vehicle fleets using renewable fuels by the year 2020.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is what he says.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		And he wants to raise vehicle standards to 36 miles to the gallon by 2015.
		And from the look at hybrid vehicles, that's easily doable.
		I mean, Honda's making them.
		Ford just licensed the hybrid vehicle technology from Toyota.
		They're going to be producing their first vehicle.
		It's going to be one of their big SUVs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, tell me something, Richard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Has the day of the muscle car gone?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, definitely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's gone, huh?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's gone.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		I mean, if you want to build a muscle car, you'll build a hybrid muscle car with a battery in there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It'll get off by much faster.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A hybrid muscle car.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, we're going to have all kinds of options, and what's going to make it happen is people doing it, people buying it.
		You know, I got to think that it's not politics or religion or whatever that is structuring our lives anymore.
		It's technology, and we vote for it by the technologies that we choose to adopt.
		We vote with our bucks.
		So when you buy an energy-efficient refrigerator, that's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it's supply and demand.
		That's how America works.
		What people want is so you've got to make them want it.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, and particularly in the case of oil and hybrid vehicles, I mean, currently about 65% of the world's oil reserves are in the Persian Gulf states.
		And that's a good reason why we're there right now.
		And about 3% of the oil reserves in the world are in the American states, in the 50 American states.
		So, I mean, even if oil were to go on and on, which it's not, we don't have it anymore.
		They have it, which means we're going to have to import it, which means we're over a barrel here.
		We're going to be having wars.
		We're going to be having economic problems based on energy, on fuel.
		And the thing that really frosts me to the max on this is that, you know, there's more energy delivered by the sun in a few hours than this whole entire planet uses in an entire year.
		So, I mean, we've got a solar surplus here.
		All we have to figure is how to get a finger in it, how to use it.
		And the beginning of this is the photovoltaics and the solar hot water and the solar heating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, with the existing infrastructure and the way we have it right now, Richard, people like you can talk until you're blue in the face, but the only thing in the end that's going to move people is going to be money.
		Now, that's what moves people.
		And as the price of oil goes up, if your statement about peak oil is correct, then that'll move people.
		You won't have to say anything to them.
		They'll start desperately looking for something that'll get the job done, get them to work and back, whatever, get out for vacation, whatever it takes.
		They're going to be looking for that, Richard.
		Money will do that.
		The question is, how soon?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, in a lot of cases, it's here already.
		You know, a more efficient vehicle.
		How about a solar hot water heater?
		A solar hot water heater installed in your home, it's going to cost you $2,000 maybe.
		You will pay that back in a two- to five-year period.
		It'll make money for you versus burning natural gas or electricity for your hot water.
		You know, very simple thing.
		You don't have to modify your house.
		It just pretty much goes in on the roof and that's it.
		There are many types of ways of using solar and it's just a matter of doing it when the time comes around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it's a matter of cost.
		I mean, we're going to convince, obviously this morning, we will convince some people to begin making moves now.
		I'm sure we will, because it's sensible.
		But the greater mass out there that may not even be listening tonight, those people are not going to begin to move until they're forced to move.
		And money is going to force them to move.
		So how oil goes, the price of oil, is going to control, I think, what people do in Mass.
		Don't you?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yes, very much so.
		It just hit $44 a barrel.
		That's the highest price ever for oil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why is it that high?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		It's that high because of supply and demand.
		There just isn't that much around.
		You know, during the last oil crisis in the 70s, the Mideast sort of bailed us out.
		I mean, they had capacity that they could pump.
		And now, at this point, they don't.
		According to the OPEC nations, they're producing a capacity right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have a question for you, Richard.
		Yes.
		I understand we have some strategic oil reserves.
		But after that, if something blew up in the Middle East and we were cut off from Mideast oil, if the U.S. was cut off from Mideast oil, what timeline do we have before America begins grounding to a halt?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, a matter of weeks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A matter of weeks.
		And what I mean grounding to a halt, I mean the 18-wheelers that haul stuff from point A to point B get to the point where there's no more diesel for them, or diesel is at such price that it's not worth it.
		That's what I mean by grind to a halt.
		Yes.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		A matter of weeks.
		And, you know, we're getting a lot of our oil from South America, from Venezuela, from Colombia.
		but this is not enough to keep every gas station pumping.
		We're at the cusp here.
		We're at a point of decision, if you will.
		We cannot long continue doing as we are doing now.
		And the consequences economically are immense.
		I mean, currently, you know, the U.S. government, I mean, we're not paying a set price at the gas pump.
		You know, it's like we're not paying a set price at our electric meter in our home.
		You know, currently the U.S. government is subsidizing the oil industry to the tune of $1.8 billion a year.
		Approximately half of the cost of your electric bill is concealed in your taxes.
		So, you know, we've been lulled into thinking that energy is a very cheap commodity.
		If you go to Germany or to Great Britain, you're going to find that gas is twice as expensive, electricity is twice as expensive.
		Why?
		Because you're paying for the actual cost of the energy.
		You're not subsidizing it through your taxes.
		We've been lulled into thinking that this stuff is cheap and plentiful when in fact it's not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what would be the motivation of lulling us in this manner?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Why?
		Because the powers that be are closely business linked with the oil and energy industries.
		In other words, government and industry hand in hand picking our pockets.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, even that group, though, Richard, would have to foresee peak oil and then a declining availability and a sharply rising price and what that would do.
		Even the people you just talked about have got to see that, and it would affect their pocketbooks as well.
		So there's going to come a time when they have to make the moves, don't they?
		And by they, I mean our government, our leadership.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		When the gas pumps run dry, then our leadership will start thinking about doing something else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it's going to be a little late by then, isn't it?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		It's going to be a lot late by then.
		And that's why I keep preaching the solar Bible.
		I mean, the sun.
		All energy on this planet comes from the sun, one form or another, with the possible exception of nuclear.
		And we just need to start tuning in to this infinite, long-lasting, benign nuke 93 million miles from here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, hold it right there, Richard.
		We'll be back, and we're going to take phone calls.
		If you have a question about energy, well, we're your people.
		So coming up in the next hour, we'll let all of you ask questions of Richard Perez from Home Power Magazine.
unidentified		Find out more about tonight's guest.
		Log on to coasttocoastam.com.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert in the middle of the night, indeed, that would be us, Richard Perez from Home Power Magazine, as my guest.
		We're going to tell you, by the way, how to get Home Power Magazine.
		That's only fair, coming up in a little bit.
		And that could save you an awful lot of money.
		Richard Perez coming right up.
		The End I understand that I'm asking the impossible, and it is the impossible, but, you know, somehow or another, what we're talking about is so important, the conservation of energy, the correct use of energy, and the harvesting of the natural energy that we're not harvesting is so damned important that I wish it could be separated from politics.
		Now, you know, in the course of the interview, it's already very apparent Richard Perez is not a Bush guy at all, not even close.
		But the problem, of course, with expressing publicly your political views is that, you know, about half the country goes, oh, He's a bush basher, click.
		And, you know, the radio's offer, they've stopped listening the moment they detect their favorite guy getting, you know, or they think he's getting bashed.
		If there was some way, Richard, to separate the politics from just the cold, hard facts of energy, diminishing energy availability and ultimately a crisis and what's coming.
		I mean, all of that is just a fact that's ahead of us, Richard.
		But you can't take it away from politics, can you?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		No, you really can't.
		I mean, it is a fact.
		Oil is finite.
		It is a fact that we've already used most of it up and that it's become very dear.
		It is a fact that burning coal in our power plants is the number one air polluter in America.
		You know, these are all facts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The politics is intrinsically tied into it.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it's interwoven into it.
		It's the reason why we're not doing something else.
		It's a reason why the oil industry gets $1.8 billion a year in subsidies, but there's only $24 million allocated for renewable energy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's incredible.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Our government fosters energy technologies.
		It spurs research.
		And just little things like, oh, let's not mandate a change in the miles per gallon for automobiles.
		Let's just forget about that for a while.
		As a matter of fact, let's cut it back a little.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fine.
		Then let's take that huge thing and talk about it for a second.
		I remember that there were mileage figures that were given to the major car companies in America, and they said, by such and such, you will achieve such and such.
		Well, the automobile makers came back and said, we can't do it.
		We can't make it.
		We can't do it.
		You remember that?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, so?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		So we're doing it.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		I'm driving around in a car that's getting 60 miles to the gallon downtown.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they lied to us.
		Yes.
		They lied to the lawmakers.
		Yes.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		There's a tremendous amount of inertia when you're in business.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		When you're in business, you want to keep doing what you're doing, particularly if it's successful, particularly if you're making money doing that.
unidentified		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		And business is inherently conservative.
		You don't want changes.
		But these are changes that we have to make.
		We're going to have no choice shortly.
		You know, probably within my lifetime and probably within yours, Art, and definitely within our children's lifetime.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Big difference there, Richard.
		Big difference.
		You know, I mean, really big difference.
		If I think it's during my lifetime, in fact, if I think it's in the next few years, I'm going to get off my butt and I'm going to start doing all kinds of things.
		If I think, well, I'm being really honest here, and I think I'm representing a lot of American people.
		If I think it's my children or my children's children, that's their damn problem.
		I won't be around.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's an attitude, you know?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		It definitely is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we need to take some calls.
		A lot of people want to talk to you, so let's see what they've got on their mind.
		First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Richard Perez.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is your name, and where are you?
unidentified		Hi, this is Ian.
unidentified		I'm Silver Spring, Maryland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Ian.
		Welcome.
		What's your question?
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		Now, realistically speaking for myself and probably a few other people at this time and in the foreseeable future, I live in an apartment, so I've been thinking about this as I've been listening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
unidentified		So one thing that occurs to me is that I don't know.
		What option is there?
		That's the question.
		I was thinking some kind of big wind-up kind of thing that is something like that available.
		Is there a solar option for someone like myself?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		That's a look, super question, actually.
		All right, Richard, he represents millions of Americans.
		He lives in an apartment.
		So what can he do?
		What should he do?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, the first thing is all the energy-efficient appliances, for example, lighting.
		For example, save energy by not using it.
		And I'm not talking doing without.
		I'm just talking doing whatever you're doing efficiently.
		For example, television sets, VCRs, microwave ovens, sit around and suck up power 24-7.
		Put them on a plug strip, shut them off when you're not using them.
		Things such as that.
		You can go one step further.
		We ran an article in Home Power about folks who lived in an apartment.
		They put two modules off the balcony out into the sun, put in a small utility inner tight inverter, plugged it in the wall.
		There you go.
		They're not making a lot of power, just a few hundred watts, but they're making something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to ask you a question, Richard.
		And I try and answer here honestly.
		I remember some years ago, California got into a severe water crisis, or a part of California, and they urged the people, please save water, save water, and they actually outlined the steps for people to save water.
unidentified		And the people, they did so well, Richard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They saved so much water that guess how they got rewarded?
		The price of water went up.
		Well, couldn't that happen with electricity?
		I mean, if people start saving, saving, saving, then the companies are making less money, and could the end result of their efforts be to Have their bills raised for that reason?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		The price of electricity is going up one way or another.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Self-interest here, I haven't paid an electric bill in 34 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's pretty good, yeah.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		All right, so there you go.
		As more and more people get solar electric systems and as they become grid intertide, those without solar electric systems are going to see a raise in the price of power.
		It's just inevitable because they're going to be making less of it and they're going to be brokering it.
		The good news is that a lot of what the utilities are going to be brokering is your neighbor's solar.
		So this is a transition phase.
		I mean, you know, to look at this as if we're going to convert everything next year or even in the next decade is ridiculous.
		This is going to be a gradual change that is going to happen over many decades.
		And we basically don't have any choice.
		We're going to have to do this one way or another.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here's Garrett, and you can tell he's a member of the other crowd, Richard, from Paulup, Washington.
		He says, these people, that would be you, Richard, these people don't seem to want to acknowledge the danger of six to ten-year lifespans of the batteries and the environmental impact of the disposal of those batteries.
		I mean, what's up with that?
		That's more harmful and dangerous to the environment than what we've got now.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		That's horsepucky.
		There is no industry in America, to begin with, the lifetime isn't six to seven years.
		It's more on the order of 15 to 20.
		And there is no industry in America that has a better recycling history than the lead-acid battery industry.
		Chances are the battery in your car has been in three or four other cars before you got it, the lead in that battery.
		The lead-acid battery industry has a much better recycling history than aluminum, glass, or any other consumer-type product.
		And if you go into a utility entertain situation where you're selling your solar back to the grid, gee, you know, you don't even have to have batteries.
		These are batteryless systems.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pretty good answer for Garrett.
		All right.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Richard Perez.
		Hello.
		Hello?
		Yes, hello.
		Well, only you know that for certain, but it sounds like you, yes.
unidentified		All righty.
		My name is Linda.
		I live in California, but I'm in Boulder City, Nevada right now.
		And I listened to you folks for the last hour, and it was all static.
		But it was so important and so interesting.
		I was glued to the radio.
		And I used to listen to you, Art, all the time a couple years ago, but I wasn't able to get you anymore in Long Beach.
		So I need to know your radio station.
		I need to know the phone number so I can get that recording.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's like 500 and something radio stations, ma'am.
		You'll have to pick one out.
		Do you have a question for my guest?
unidentified		I do.
		I have a camper trailer that I'd like to use some of your systems on when I'm camping.
		And I'd also like to find out who I can call.
		I have a house in Boulder City, and my son's electric bill is like sometimes $225 a month.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, see, that gets your attention.
unidentified		It's got my attention because I can't afford both houses and help him out with the electric bills because I'm a widow.
unidentified		And I've got so many questions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't even know what to do with that.
		All right.
		Well, get a copy of the program is what I would recommend to you first.
		Now, with respect to the camping question, that's a pretty good one, Richard.
		What can people with little campers and that kind of thing do?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's a simple job.
		They've got a battery already.
		You know, sometimes they have a generator in them.
		Modern RVs and campers are coming with solar equipped right on the roof from the factory these days.
		It's easy to retrofit one or two or three or four modules onto the roof, put them into the battery, put an inverter in there, kiss your generator goodbye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's the truth, folks.
		I did it.
		When I bought my RV years ago, first thing I did is put 500 watts of solar on the roof.
		And, oh, boy, that goes a long way, doesn't it, Richard?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		It goes a long way.
		One of the RV stories that we wrote up in Home Power, this fellow went crazy.
		He's got over 17 modules on the roof of his RV.
		When he pulls into the house, what he does is he runs an extension cord from the RV, pulls it into the house, and runs his house off his RV.
		Now, in terms of your electric bill, that's incredibly high, Linda.
		So what you need to do is investigate your consumption.
		Something there is using a whole lot more power than it should be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, no, no.
		There is a question within a question, Richard.
		Fine.
		How do you investigate your consumption?
		Can you take one of these portable little clamp-on ammeters and go around to your various appliances in the house, have an electrician do it, and find out what each one is using?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		And you don't need an electrician.
		The meters are $29, $39, $49.
		They're advertised in home power.
		You just plug it into the wall socket, plug the appliance in, leave it run a few days.
		It'll tell you how many kilowatt hours it's using.
		It'll tell you instantaneous consumption.
		And it's just the ticket for things like refrigerators, water heaters, and things that operate intermittently.
		But investigate that.
		And your local renewable energy dealer, and there are thousands of them around the nation at this point.
		You can find out about them on HomePower's website.
		There's a searchable database on there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's tell people how.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, let's tell them how to get the magazine, Richard.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		You can get, well, first place to get it is on the web.
		If you've got access to the web, you can go to our website and you can download for free our entire current issue, cover to cover.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yes, the entire magazine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		For free.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		And that's www.homepower.com.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How are you going to ever make a living when you give it away?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Believe me, we're surviving.
		We're not in this to get rich.
		there's only 14 of us working on the company, and everybody is paid enough to get by, and we're happy with that.
		So we're giving it away on the web, and we've been doing this for the last six years.
		So this is not a new thing.
		Now, if you want it via paper, if you want a subscription or something, you can call our number on Monday, and that's 800-707-6585, 800-707-6585, and we can pick you up with a subscription via paper.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, that's 1-800-707-6585.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, and a subscription, how much?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		$2,250 a year, and that'll buy you six issues.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		We come out bimonthly, and we're now in our 16th year of publication.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Why, Richard, is the RV world so far ahead of the housing world in terms of alternative power and so forth?
		Because we're miles ahead of them.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, because they're not tied down to an electric line all the time.
		You're often in a place where it is inconvenient or impossible to plug in.
		So what do you, well, I mean, you're in the same situation that I am at home.
		You're off-grid.
		And if you're off-grid, you have two choices.
		You can run a generator, which is noisy, smelly, and very expensive, or you can do something else.
		And something else that these people are doing is solar.
		And it's just revolutionized the RV industry.
		It's an option on most RVs these days.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Perez.
		Hello.
unidentified		Good morning, Buenos Aires.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		This is Nancy from Shrewsbury College.
		I had a couple questions.
		First of all, could there be conversion kits for cars, and would that be possible?
		Because maybe we should have some cars that still stay on using gasoline.
		And then another thing is my company imports 90% of their products from China.
		I'm concerned about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, a lot of people are.
		Okay, Richard.
		Conversion first.
		That's a very good question.
		The cars that are on the road right now, is there any realistic conversion for them?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		In terms of a hybrid electric vehicle like the Prius or the Hondas, no.
		That's got to be built in right from the ground up.
		In terms of converting these cars to pure electrics, yes.
		The Volkswagen Rabbit, there are kits out there to do this, to jerk the engine and replace it with electrics and batteries.
		The Chevy S10 pickup, there are kits available for it.
		But these are pure electrics now, and pure electrics at this point in time have problems.
		I mean, they have a limited range.
		And they take a while to recharge.
		You're not going to pull it into a recharge station and fill it up in 15 minutes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they don't get the little jackrabbit starts at Americans like that.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		No, they're generally slower.
		I mean, they'll freeway crews, but they're generally slower.
		So conversion kits are available.
		Now, if you have a diesel rig, then you can go biodiesel almost instantly.
		Most diesel rigs will run on biodiesel with minimal to no conversion at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		She asked about China, and I agree with her.
		If you've been to China, seen China, know what's going on in China, it will scare the hell out of you.
		What do you think about China, Richard?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		You know, I don't know what to think.
		So I'm going to just pass on that.
		I don't have the expertise to deal with it.
		I know that they are going renewable energy more quickly than I've ever seen any pre-industrial type nation do it.
		They've got lots and lots of rural villages running on diesel generators.
		They're trying to get rid of those.
		They are producing a tremendous volume of consumer gear under what I would consider to be basically slave labor type conditions.
unidentified		All right, all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold it right there.
		We've got a break for the bottom of the hour.
		We'll get you on the line with Richard Perez from Home Power Magazine if you stay right where you are.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
		Get it in writing with the After Dark Newsletter.
		Subscribe by calling 1-888-727-5505.
		A little jivey on a Saturday night.
		Come walk me.
		Gonna die a little day away.
		Jenny will sleep.
		Shall we smile for a deep breath?
		A very old friend came by today.
		Cause he was telling everyone in town.
		Of the law that he was found.
		And the reasoning of his latest claim.
		He talked and talked.
		And I heard him say.
		That she had the longest blackest hair.
		The prettiest green eyes anywhere.
		And the reasoning.
		Of his latest claim.
		Though I smiled at tears inside of her burning.
		I wished him luck again.
		Then he said goodbye.
		That he was gone.
		But still his words kept returning.
		What else was there for me to do and cry?
		To talk with Art Bell.
		Call the Wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach ARC by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and tiling toll 3 808930903.
		From coast to coast, and worldwide on the internet.
		Coach to coach me out with ourselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		Talk about a program that's getting a lot of response from the audience.
		We're getting a landslide here, and that's good.
		I think that's good.
		Both good and bad.
		You know, people upset with Richard's politics, other people fascinated with the possibilities and all the rest of it.
		But massive reaction both ways.
		And I think the reason for that is because everybody is finally sinking in out there.
		It's finally sinking in that we may really have an energy problem.
		And so, you know, positively or negatively, the good thing is people now are beginning to pay attention.
		The End you I think this might punctuate what I just said.
		Mark, the webmaster, not of this website, he writes and says, hey, looks like your guest's website has crashed and burned.
		Well, we do that to a lot of websites on this program, but that is an indicator of the kind of interest that there is right now in all of this, Richard.
		And I'm getting a landslide of interest.
		You know, people fast blasting in giant multitudes, people emailing me and all the rest of it.
		In other words, the interest level is extremely high right now, both positive and negative, I have to say, but very high.
		And so I don't remember that day.
		We've done shows like this before, and people go, you know, they don't respond because what they pay at the pump is, well, you know, annoying, but okay.
		What they pay for their electric bill, annoying, but, you know, okay.
		And they were comfortably ready not to take any action.
		But, you know, it seems like we've reached a kind of a, I don't know, we're at a certain point here.
		We're about to go over that point.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		We've definitely reached the point.
		We're beyond it now.
		The costs for energy are going to go up.
		It's become more and more available.
		And what scares me more than that is the fragility of the lines of supply, oil, electricity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, all it takes is a tree limb or a power plant to go out and bang, we've got, you know, well, maybe you would like to address that, Richard, because, you know, the old story about the grid was that the grid is interconnected everywhere.
		So, like the internet, why you can't take it out because if you take out one little part of the grid, the rest of it doesn't go down.
		It's protected.
		But, well, you know, it just doesn't seem in reality like it happens that way.
		When we have the entire northeast part of the country or the American Southwest or the Western part of the country, it goes out.
		And then eventually they trace it to, they always say, you know, something fell on a line over there in the deepest part of Michigan somewhere or some damn thing, and that caused it all.
		How can that happen when the grid is supposed to prevent all that?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, it could prevent all that if it had the capacity to do it.
		But the point is that we have stretched it to the absolute limit.
		You know, there's two years ago we had blackouts and brownouts in California because folks were using more than they could get their hands on.
		And part of this was financial, part of it was technical.
		But the point is that the grid is stretched to the max.
		All it takes is a small problem, and it instantly magnifies.
		And it's not going to get any better.
		We haven't been putting in new generating capacity.
		We haven't been putting in new lines.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then to me, again, the concept of the grid was one part goes down, the rest of it picks it up.
		What you're saying is that every one of these facilities is stretched right to the very end of its capacity.
		So when one little one goes down, the next one goes over capacity, boom, it goes down, the next one, boom, goes down, and it gets worse as you go.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		That's right.
		And the only way to prevent this is to, A, use less, and B, produce more.
		And producing more, in my book, means, hey, get your own first.
		Put solar up on your house.
		If you do this, then when the grid goes out, if you have some batteries in there, you won't even know it happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, then to me, this means, Richard, that the entire concept of the saving concept of the grid is really its Achilles' heel as well.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, that's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, listen, a lot of people want to talk.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Perez.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hi.
		My name is Red, and I'm from Northern Arizona.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome.
unidentified		And thank you.
unidentified		And I live in a mobile home, and I wondered if there's any manufacturers out there that are making solar-friendly mobiles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's an awfully good question.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		In general, no, because of the nature of the home and the fact that it has to be moved.
		But I'll tell you what solar installers have been doing for mobile homes.
		We'll put you up a power shed right outside, a little 10 by 12 shed right outside, PVs on the roof, batteries if you want them, inverter inside.
		And your house can be as solar as anyone else's house.
		And if you want, you know, we can also put solar hot water up on there, too.
		So your water is heated by solar.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I have a question about pre-manufactured homes, Richard.
		Mobile homes, whatever you want to call them.
		You know, they have very nice double-even triple-wide ones now.
		There's a story out there that's widely believed, and I want to know if it's true or not, and that's that pre-manufactured homes are, because of the nature of the way they're made, you know, they're made in mass, right?
		And they're manufactured, so they actually have better tolerances in the home, and they actually have foot-for-foot better insulation as well.
		Is that a true statement, or is that what you use, horse pucky?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		No.
		That is a true statement for some of them.
		And anybody buying a manufactured home should look at the R values thoroughly because you can get them all over the place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the stories you hear are: well, since they're manufactured, you know, the tolerances are better.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You don't have leaks and drafts in the house and that kind of thing.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's pretty much horsebucky because, you know, most modern construction is wrapped in Tyvek and vapor barriers, and homes are getting so tight these days, regardless of whether they're pre-manufactured or assembled by carpenters, that you're going to have air quality problems inside the house.
		So, you know, that's a matter of air leakage.
		When you're dealing with thermal characteristics, you're dealing strictly with insulation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
		All right, all right.
		International Line, you're on the air with Richard Perez.
		Hello, where are you?
unidentified		I'm calling from Tassos, British Columbia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, what's up?
unidentified		Good evening, gentlemen.
		Thank you very much for taking my call.
		Sure.
		Geez, first off, your plane, Coy.
		Is oil over on the June after dark?
		But at any rate, the cost of oil.
		I work on a research vessel, and to fuel that thing up, what, $100,000 Canadian at a go.
		Military vessels, the number of fleets out there running on diesel fuel on a severely tapped oil system that the crunch has become, I suppose.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I run a diesel.
unidentified		Are we allowed to mention brand names?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
		Okay, well, I have a...
		I mean, what is your overall question, sir?
unidentified		I'm running a 1986 pickup truck on a four-cylinder diesel engine that I run on fryer fat, basically.
		Okay.
		And now I'm looking to try and manufacture my own.
		I've heard in India and in China.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Try and manufacture your own what?
unidentified		Biodiesel, basically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard, how about that?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Easy to do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Easy to do.
		You just take a bunch of oil, and this can be used oil like French fry oil or doughnut oil or whatever.
		And you heat it up, and you put a little sodium hydroxide, that's lye, in there.
		And then you warm it up.
		It breaks up the long, fatty chains into shorter chains.
		This is something you can do in your garage.
		We've got instructions on how to do this in Home Power.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, great.
		It's easy to do.
		So you use Lye and you break it down, and then it's ready to use?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		That's ready to use.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		And the only change you're going to notice in your diesel is your exhaust is going to smell like french fries.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How happy are people who are using that kind of lash-up?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, extremely happy.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		So much so that commercially made biodiesel is available in three filling stations in the local valley around it here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		It costs a bit more than regular diesel.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Why, I have no idea, mainly because it's new.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you're telling me now, I've got an RV.
		It's a diesel RV.
		And so I could go fill up somewhere on this stuff and smell like a big rolling french fry.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're telling me?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it wouldn't harm my diesel engine.
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that kind of sounds like fun.
unidentified		It's easily doable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air with Richard Perez.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Yeah, hi.
unidentified		Hey, I'm Colin from Pondale, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And it's a pretty windy place up here, so I made the commitment.
unidentified		I went ahead and I put in a wind electric system, and I got the rebate here from California, the renewables buy-down rebate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		But about nine months after I installed the unit, I had a major meltdown, and I had to ship it back to the factory, and they had the thing for about seven months.
unidentified		They promised it to me after about five weeks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		So consequently, it's been nine months, and I finally was able to put the thing back up last week, and it's really nice to see my meter spin backwards again.
		But I want to ask Richard, I am a subscriber to Home Power Magazine, by the way, Richard, and I really like your magazine.
		Thank you.
		My question, though, for you is, what is your opinion of the small wind industry?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Oh, that's such a very good question.
		I have the same question, Richard.
		The small wind industry, it is a small industry, and I, too, have had a couple of wind generators up, albeit beta testing for the companies.
		But, you know, I've had a little trouble, and I had to pull down, put up new ones.
		Where are we today?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Well, I wish I could say these things were trouble-free.
		They are not.
		I've had three wind generators in the last 10 years.
		They break.
		It is a very difficult job to put something like that up on a tower and just say we're not going to deal with it.
		There are maintenance issues.
		Some are better than others.
		You get what you pay for.
		But, you know, wind is, in my opinion, for the folks who are into maintenance, who are into tinkering, who are into, let's climb up the tower and check it out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, not me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That wouldn't be me.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Then you're a solar kind of guy, and I'm a solar kind of guy.
		I've got a wind generator up.
		It's down right now, but I'm putting another one up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The wind should be, it's like the cheapest per kilowatt I had heard, that wind was actually cheaper than solar.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		It is cheaper than solar.
		As a matter of fact, the major new capacity that utilities are installing is wind, but we're not talking home scale here.
		We're talking megawatt.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The maintenance.
		I mean, you said it yourself.
		The caller said it.
		I, too, admitted.
		I'm waiting on the newest, latest, greatest model.
		The question is, are we approaching a point where a person can go buy a wind generator, put it up, and forget it like they can solar panel.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Solar panel?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		We're not going to do that.
		I mean, solar panels, you stick them out in the sun, they're warrantied for 25 years these days.
		And they're going to be producing energy probably for 50 to 100 years.
		You know, there's nothing that is as supremely reliable as a solar panel.
		Sorry, that's just the way it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Well, I'll let you know the latest.
		I'm going to do that pretty soon.
		Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Richard Perez.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
		I'm calling about, well, a quick program note.
		Tomorrow when you do the UFO thing, a bumper song that you don't play very much is wonderful called If I Ever Am Abducted, Don't Let It Be the Gray.
		Oh, it's beautiful.
		If you have that, it's so wonderful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, we'll see.
unidentified		Okay, the other thing is there is a sky car that you interviewed, the professor that was making that some years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would be the Mahler Sky Car, yes.
unidentified		and I think that would be fabulous as a new energy source.
unidentified		And the third thing is about...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It wouldn't be a source, dear.
unidentified		Well, I thought.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The car energy car would have to use fuel.
unidentified		Well, I thought he had different ways of having it go than I. Well, anyway, when you interview him next time, I'm looking forward to it to see what he's put it together.
		And also Bob Lazar, maybe between the two of them.
		Okay.
		You know, with Bob Lazar's stuff and his.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, let's talk for a second about Bob Lazar and hydrogen.
		Now, Richard, I believe that President Bush has begun motion to move us toward a hydrogen energy source economy.
		What do you say about that?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Probably not in his lifetime.
		But, you know, this whole business with fuel cells, they're called fuel cells for a reason.
		They take fuel.
		The fuel is hydrogen.
		where we are getting this hydrogen right now for these fuel cells is natural gas um...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		and with an answer what you're saying It takes power to make power?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Fuel cells are not energy producers.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		They are merely energy converters.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, a lot of people have it fixed in their mind.
		Fuel cell.
		Sounds like it's something from Star Trek almost.
		And they think that it generates energy.
		And it's just a container for hydrogen.
		And you've got to get the hydrogen in there, right?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		From somewhere, yes.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Now, if we were to make this hydrogen from the electrolysis of water, from splitting water up into hydrogen and oxygen, and if we were to use the electricity that did that from solar, wind, then, hey, then we have a sustainable setup, and fuel cells are part of it but if we're using natural gas
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that realistic to create hydrogen from water using, let's say, solar cells as the electrical source?
		Is that realistic?
		Absolutely.
		it is?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		Absolutely.
		It's been done before.
		It's been done a number of places in universities experimentally by home power readers in their backyards.
		It's doable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you run stories, do you not, about people who do exactly that, the story of how they do it, how the mechanism is put together and how they end up with the hydrogen and how they use it in the middle of the middle of the hydrogen, yes.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		They use it not only through fuel cells, but they burn it in room heaters, they burn it in stoves, and hydrogen is a wonderful thing to burn because the only byproduct is water, no carbon involved.
		But if you're putting natural gas into this, then you're adding another load to an already overstressed natural gas system.
		I mean, we're running short of this stuff.
		We don't need to be planning an economy based around it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, okay.
		All right.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Perez.
		Hello.
unidentified		I'm proud of you two fellows and what you've done so much better than myself.
		Two quick statements and a question.
		One, the question is, do these LEDs that run off 120-volt AC make noise and interfere with my radio reception of Art Bell?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The answer to that is no.
		I run them here, sir.
		They don't bother anything.
		Next question.
unidentified		The next question is, these are statements.
		Where you use that foam on the outside the house where you get cold up in Canada.
		Don't make it more than about 1 5 8 inch thick, otherwise it becomes a vapor barrier and you'll get ice out there on the wall.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that something you agree with, Richard?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Don't run your refrigerator where it's beneath 50 or 60 degrees.
unidentified		You'll violate the warranty and destroy the compressor at about $600.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that right, Richard?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		I run mine down to about 35 degrees.
		I've been running our RE refrigerator that way for, I'll see, almost 11 years now.
		No problems.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Well, you know, I guess everybody wants to, you know, separate the bull from the real McCoy.
		And Home Hero Magazine does that.
		Yes.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		I mean, our entire crew lives with the products that we write up.
		And, you know, we have half the crew off the grid.
		The rest of them are utility inner tied.
		You know, when we write something up, it's no bull.
		We're talking about personal experience here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's certainly worthwhile.
		So you all live what you write.
		You live it.
		Yes.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		That's how we got started doing this, is we started doing it for ourselves, and we said, hey, you know, this is great, and we want to tell folks about it.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		And that's how we got started doing this 16 years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And are you ever tempted to write anything that you ought not because of a potential sponsor for an advertisement for your magazine?
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		We have lost full-page advertisements because I refuse to write up products.
		We will not accept advertising from products that we know are not as advertised.
		We just don't do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's called integrity, and I think you've got a lot of it.
		Richard, thank you for being here tonight.
		The program is over.
		We're out of time.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, thank you very much for having me, Art.
richard perez ▲ ● ▼		I enjoyed it immensely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're very welcome, my friend.
		Good night.
		That's Richard Perez from Home Power Magazine.
		Tomorrow night, Dr. Stephen Greer, along with ABC.
		It's going to be quite a night.
		Quite a night indeed.
		Richard Greer has been threatened.
		Tomorrow night, you'll get to hear it from the high desert.

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