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June 20, 2004 - Art Bell
02:51:59
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Dean Radin - Psi Research
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From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon,
wherever you may be in the globe's 25 prolific time zones, every one of them covered by this program one way or the
other, which is Coast to Coast AM Weekend Edition.
I'm Art Bell.
It's my honor to be here with you this night.
The eve of the first private shot into space.
And if I wasn't here, I can assure you, I can absolutely assure you I'd be there.
They call it Spaceship One.
It's a private rocket to space.
It's going to be attached, actually, to the underside of its White Knight carrier airplane during takeoff from the Mojave Airport at about 6.30 in the morning.
MSNBC.com will provide live streaming video coverage if you're up at that hour.
And it looks like all the networks finally have headed down there.
CNN headed down there.
And then all the other networks said, oh, I guess we better get down there, so they're on their way.
At an altitude of about 50,000 feet, the rocket plane will separate from the White Knight Light up the engines and shoot up to 100 kilometers, 62 miles, the internationally recognized boundary of outer space.
It will be the first private craft to leave Earth.
The first privately of Burt Rutan's effort to leave Earth.
And it's just hours away now.
I got a very interesting email from somebody a little while ago.
About Burt Rutan.
And, of course, if I wasn't here, I'd be there.
I guarantee you that.
I'd be there.
It's only about four hours away, plus, you know, prep time and so forth, so I just would not make it in time.
And I understand it's a rave kind of atmosphere going on at the Mojave Airport.
Anyway, the email on Rutan's stuff.
He says, if it works, And it has to this point.
Why it's so far ahead of NASA, there's no comparison.
Instead of 800 people in a control center the size of a small city, Burt... Burt Rutan has four or five guys in a truck!
Think about it.
Economy of scale.
They will leave the ground at about 630 and whatever time it takes to get to altitude about 50,000 feet.
And then she takes off.
Godspeed.
Is what I would say.
What an effort.
What an incredible effort.
And seeing the private sector going into space is heartwarming.
Very, very heartwarming.
And if it does not give you the opportunity, surely it may give your children the opportunity to go to space.
Anyway, to me, that's the big news.
There is other news to discuss.
Let's see.
South Korean held in Iraq pleads for life.
The Arab satellite television network Al Jazeera aired a videotape Sunday purportedly from al-Qaeda-linked militants showing a South Korean hostage begging for his life and pleading with his government to withdraw troops from Iraq.
South Korea says, not a chance.
The al-Qaeda group responsible for beheading an American engineer said, Sympathizers, listen to this now, sympathizers in the Saudi security force provided police uniforms and cars used during the victim's kidnapping.
That's according to an Islamic extremist website on Sunday.
So you just don't know what to think about Saudis, do you?
I've always had some great suspicion they weren't quite friends.
They seem to be when the diplomatic handshakes occur.
And that, in fact, they were responsible behind 9-1-1 financially, very deeply indeed.
So, kind of a schizophrenic kind of response from the Saudis.
They take our money for oil.
Iraq's prime interim, that would be prime minister, announced a restructuring of the country's security forces Sunday, regrouping All Iraqi troops under one central command whose chief duty is tackling insurgents plaguing the country.
The Prime Minister also said his government was considering imposing martial law in Iraq's troubled spots to help police and paramilitaries bring order.
The chairman of the September 11 Commission said Sunday that al-Qaeda had much more interaction with Iran and Pakistan than it ever did with Iraq, underscoring a controversy over the Bush administration's insistence that there was collaboration between the terrorist organization and Saddam Hussein.
Thomas Kean made the comment, even as he and his other commissioners tried to steer clear of the debate over one of the administration's primary justifications for invading Iraq.
So they're saying, uh-uh.
It just didn't happen.
That two other countries, Iran and Pakistan, both had much more to do with those who perpetrated the September 11th massacre than did Saddam Hussein.
Well, then there goes that as a reason to start the war, and so we don't have that anymore.
Well, but we've got the weapons of mass destruction, right?
Coming up at the top of the hour is an interview I cherish, that with Dean Radin.
Dean Radin is involved, or was involved, in the Princeton project, the Consciousness Project.
That's this incredibly important, incredibly interesting concept that there is a universal consciousness, and that actually, like a seismograph, Princeton was able to distribute what they called their eggs, really computers scattered geographically about the world, that report back to the Princeton computer.
And then when large events occur, as an earthquake would register on a seismic scale, why the needles take off, in fact, ahead of the actual event and predict events.
That would seem to indicate the ability to read the power of mass, or at least some aspect of mass consciousness.
And so Dean Radin is involved in that, was involved in that project, and in many more, and has written a brand new book called The Conscious Universe.
And we will talk to him about that tonight.
Fascinating man.
Just reviewing last night, in case you didn't hear it, I read a fascinating story from The Guardian about the chairman of Shell Oil, who said, well actually the headline is, Oil Chief, colon, my fear is for planet.
Shell boss's confession shocks industry.
Well, I bet it did.
He's saying unless we do something pretty soon, well, he's simply very worried for the planet.
Now that is not something you would expect an oil company exec to say.
And then you've got this from the Manchester News.
Insurers, that would be insurance companies, warn of climate change threat.
The implications of climate change must be addressed now if insurers are to continue offering widely available and affordable cover, an insurance trade body warned today.
The Association of British Insurers said climate change was not an issue that would have an impact in the future, but was something that was already affecting insurance.
Forget about the future.
It's affecting insurance now, with household claims relating to storm and flood damage doubling in the five years to £2,326 billion.
It warned that insurers face the prospect of these claims Further tripling by 2050 if nobody does anything.
By the way, you remember the danger of the Dirty Bomb?
You remember I talked to you a little bit about Dirty Bomb maybe having much more of a psychological effect than it ever would a real effect in terms of killing people?
Well, true.
Here it is.
The Dirty Bomb allegedly planned by terrorist suspect Jose Padilla would have been a dud Not the radiological threat portrayed last week by federal authorities as a June 1st news conference.
Or added, the Justice Department said the alleged Al-Qaeda associate hoped to attack Americans by detonating uranium wrapped with explosives in order to spread radioactivity.
But uranium's extremely low radioactivity is harmless compared with high radiation materials such as cesium and cobalt isotopes.
But you're used in medicine and industry that experts see as a potential dirty bomb fuel, so the one he was thinking of detonating just would not have done very much at all.
We're about to do open lines coming up in just a moment, but every now and then I get an email or communication that I find really intriguing, and I don't necessarily understand it, but I'm sure one of you will.
Randall writes, Hey Art, I work for a contractor for the National Science Foundation on their Antarctica programs.
One project's starting construction down there now is called IceCube.
That's a good name.
It is a very large neutrino detector being constructed in the glacial ice near the South Pole Station.
It is over a kilometer square and a kilometer deep with a network of detectors embedded in the ice.
Now, some of you knowing more about this than myself might be able to explain to me what this is potentially all about.
Just kind of curious.
West of the Rockies?
Let's do it.
You're on the air.
Hello.
Hi Art.
Hi.
How are you doing?
I'm doing all right.
Who is this?
My name is Daniel, otherwise known as Time Traveler 2012.
Oh, you're a time traveler.
Yes, but not necessarily from 2012.
If you want to know something about the future, though, I can give you something about 2020.
Uh-huh.
Well, okay, let's back up a little bit.
From what date, roughly, did you travel?
Actually, I've been all over the place, because I'm not really human.
All right.
I'm an angel.
Let's back up then, nevertheless, and you're an angel.
You're an angel.
So there was no initial date that you began this journey, because you've essentially always been?
No, what happened was I was awakened in October 2099.
October of 1999, I'm sorry.
Awakened in October of 1999?
I was an angel, and before that I was just a regular human.
So you suddenly discovered yourself, you were an angel.
How did you discover you were an angel?
Well, when God came to me in October 1999 and told me exactly who I was, which is the return of Old Testament Daniel, and also an incarnate angel of God, Oh, so, well alright, then you must have much to tell us about our future, I'm listening, 2012 or otherwise, what's coming?
Well, one vision I can tell you about is one where I was transported into the future to the year 2092, and what I learned at that time is that society had long since collapsed, and then Like, the cities were abandoned at that time, so I asked, when I was transported there, I asked one of the people there who I met, I asked him, what caused all this?
Like, what did this?
Right.
So, he told me it was called Starburst 2020.
And that means 72 years after Starburst was their civilization.
So I asked him, what does starburst mean?
Right.
He told me it's nuclear detonations over a handful of cities in 2020.
Well, I suppose it's inevitable, but it was only a partial exchange.
We didn't totally annihilate ourselves.
Oh, no, the Earth is not destined to die like that.
All right.
All right.
Well, that's a that's a good peek into the future, I guess.
How does it feel to be an angel?
It feels great, except that no one believes you if you try telling them.
Yeah, that would be a problem.
But, I mean, you know it to be true.
Of course, yeah.
So, I mean, what's it like being an angel?
I mean, just from your own perspective.
I am asking.
Yeah, well, it's lonely because you cannot really have friends unless they're angels themselves.
Because you have to sort of get along with the right kind of people at that time.
So have you kind of learned to not tell people you're an angel because of the, I don't know, difficulty it engenders as conversation goes on?
Well, I tell you Art, I hate it.
I hate telling people about it and the only reason I have to tell people about it is because I have a book that I've written and it's supposed to get out to as many people as possible.
Book promotion.
So you've written a book.
Is it published yet?
Yes, it's been self-published for about one and a half years now.
And what's it called?
It's called Final Book of Daniel.
Oh, I see.
It can be reset.
Well, no, I can't let you do that.
OK, I'm sorry.
I understand you really would like to, Daniel, but I'm sorry.
That's OK.
Anyway, people can probably research it using Google or whatever now that they have the name and proceed from there.
All right?
That's perfect.
OK, take care, Daniel, and fly safely.
Um, alright.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
Hello.
Hello.
Alright.
Yes.
Oh, good.
Okay.
This is Russ from Long Island, New York.
Hey, Russ.
Hi.
My girlfriend called me an angel last night.
Did she?
Yeah, she did.
I have a story.
It's called the... I wonder if that's how it happened to Daniel.
A little quick moment of passion.
You know, I called once before and I told you I saw a woman disappear in an elevator.
I was that guy who told you that?
I don't believe she was an angel.
I believe she was a time traveler.
Just real quick, my sister and I were standing by the door waiting for the elevator door to open up and this lady walks up and for some reason my sister and I did not move when the door opened and she walked in.
She had a lab coat on.
She was about 165 pounds, black hair, very plain face.
She walked right in the elevator.
The elevator door I started to close, and then I snapped out of it, and I said, hey, Lynn, hurry up, hit the button.
And then I hit the button, because I was right there.
The door did not even close.
It opens back up.
We walked in.
No lady.
But that's not what I called you about.
So, I mean, anything is possible.
There's a lot going on out there that you have no clue.
I mean, if this woman disappeared right in front of me, and it happened twice.
I called once before, and I told you this, but it happened in another hospital also.
The reason I called you tonight was, the title of this story, and it's a true story, it's called the 18 Wheel of Miracle.
And it goes out to all you truckers out there, and I thank God that you guys know what you're doing on the road.
Because it saved my life.
The year was 1973.
This happened 31 years ago, so the trucker that was out there at the time, I don't know if he's retired or not, but this is what happened.
I'm on I-95.
I just passed over the borderline of North Carolina.
And I had a Harley Davidson chopper, fully chopped, long front end.
There were only two people on the road.
There was a car on the right-hand side of the lane, the slow lane, and there was this old lady and guy in there.
And as I passed their car, my mufflers would bounce off of it and they just gave me this look and rolled up their window.
And way in front of me was this 18-wheeler truck.
And that was in the center lane.
So I pulled up, I nailed it, and I just went, wham, right up to this truck.
And I was remembering what my science teacher said in school.
He said, if you go up close enough to a truck, you'll find out there's no, there's absolutely no air in the, behind the back of it.
There's no air disturbances, a void back there.
So I figured I would try it out.
So I got directly behind the truck.
And sure enough, I was right up to the back of the truck.
And it was absolutely no wind back there at all.
It was nice and calm.
I just heard the sound of the truck, the sound of my motor.
And it's a good thing I knew enough about physics to not just pull, uh, you know, right out alongside, you know, get back into the wind.
Otherwise the wind would have knocked me right down, you know, cause I was going around 65 miles an hour.
So I slowly backed up from the truck and had all the air pressure get back on me.
Um, you know, and then I moved over to the left-hand lane and started to pass the truck.
As I get up to the cab of the truck, Art, The truck driver sees my bike and it was so hot, you know, he just leans out and he gives me the arm up, you know, like, alright, you know, hot bike and stuff.
So I, you know, I gave him it back and just at that point I heard like a shotgun sound go off.
And I hear BOOM!
And then I hear RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR My primary chain locked up because my oiler, the chain oiler, was not working and the chain just froze, locking up my back wheel.
Wow.
The bike started to skid straight and I'm going, okay, well maybe I could just, there's only another car on the road, I can just, you know, keep it straight and then I'll slow up and get off the bike.
Didn't happen like that.
As soon as I started to slow up a little bit, it started to The fish test started to go down, the back wheel started to go counter-clockwise, and then the bike fell, hit the ground, I immediately jumped on top of the bike.
As that's happening, it's counter-clockwise underneath the truck.
Oh my gosh.
I'm looking... Alright, hold it right there.
This in radio is what we call a cliffhanger.
So there's a bike on its...
On its side, he's riding on top of it, and both of them are underneath a semi-truck.
Does it get any worse?
Well, he's here to tell us his story, so... And he did mention the word, miracle, I believe.
We'll get back to him in a moment, from the high desert in the middle of the night, which is exactly where we do business.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
I'm Mark Bell.
I'm a sinner.
I feel like a bird in a nest Whenever you walk
Whenever you talk You ripple like a river
When I touch you on the face Oh, I pick up your body like a stone
You're all you've got I picked up your vibes, you know it all
Out of my five times You're a dream, baby, yeah
You're right where I found you, baby When my arms around your head
Oh, do you believe that I'm Do you believe that I'm
To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll free at 800-825-5033.
line is area code 775-727-1222. To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free
at 800-825-5033. From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
International Callers, International Colors.
And if he got out of that, it surely was one.
your in-country Sprint Access Number, pressing Option 5 and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
From coast to coast and worldwide on the Internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
The man did say the word miracle, didn't he? And if he got out of that, it surely was one.
We'll find out in a moment.
Alright, here we are.
Let's go back to it.
Whizzing around on the cycle, like a cowboy hanging on for dear life.
And underneath the 18-wheeler, is that right?
Yes, sir.
As the bike hit the ground, like I said, it started to go counterclockwise.
And I'm sitting on top of the bike now, and I'm holding on tight.
And as I'm going under the truck, I'm looking up, and I see the The trucker is looking out.
He's hanging out of his window watching me go under his truck.
And then I, as I continue to turn counterclockwise, now my front fork is facing those tires.
Now this truck was huge.
It had four tires on one side and four tires on the other side.
So it was a large truck.
Now, as I'm starting to come closer to the rear wheels, I'm hearing You know, I'm hearing the sound of the tires now.
I'm going, Oh God, please let it just be fast.
And I, um, as I was about my, my little front tire of the chopper was about, I would say an inch.
It got an inch close to those rear tires.
And I knew it was going to just suck me in and pound on me and blow me up.
So I was ready for it and I'm holding on really tight.
And then suddenly at the last second, it just went wham!
It just totally went counterclockwise and Shot me out from under that truck, across the left-hand lane and into a ditch, because on Route 95 there's this long, you know, ditch in the middle that just goes on.
Anyhow, it threw me into this ditch.
Now the bike is on top of me, and I hear, in the distance, I hear, you know, the truck slowing up, thank God the guy didn't slow up while I was under there, and I hear, you know, in the distance, and then I hear, And I'm going, oh God, there's gas dropping on my hot engine now.
I'm going on, I'm looking, thinking about the movies.
Oh my God.
I'm thinking of these movies that, you know, they blow up.
Oh yeah.
After an accident.
Absolutely.
Now I'm trying to get, I'm trying to get my leg out from under the bike, Art.
And I'm pulling out, finally I get away from it.
And I... You're very good with sound effects.
Let me hear the gas hitting the hot thing again.
Let me hear that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh God.
Anyway, I'm sorry, go ahead.
So I ran up the embankment there because it was something.
I ran up to the top and there was the old lady and the old man.
They stopped.
Their car stopped right where I went in because they saw the whole thing.
And then I saw the truck.
He was all the way down the road.
He stopped.
So I go across the street and I talk to the old lady and man and they go, geez, we saw that whole thing.
You were right under that truck.
And I said, I know.
I said, that was so damn scary, I thought I was dead for sure.
So then I look over at the truck, and I see the truck driver get out, and I see feet on the other side, somebody else was in the truck with him driving, and he looks immediately, he gets out of his truck, and he's looking under his truck.
So I whistle, I'm going, you know, whistle really loud.
Over here, yeah.
I'm over here.
So the guy comes over, I was under that truck, I said, and then I shot out.
And so then this police... I was under that truck!
And then I shot out!
And so then this police officer pulls over, and he's got this big tank hat on, you know, southern cop, and he goes, Lawson, send registration!
He said that to you or to the trucker?
No, to me!
To you?
To me.
So the truck driver says, hey man, give him a break!
Alright, we don't have much time here, so... So anyhow, the only thing that I ended up getting...
This is how it ended up happening that I didn't get killed.
I think.
I have highway pegs on my chopper, and those are things that the guys, you put your feet on, and every once in a while, if you look at the road on I-95, you'll see these expansion slots, you know?
That's right.
And I think what happened was, Just at the right time.
One of them caught.
The peg must have caught in the road in the expansion slot and it just whammed me right out.
I got it.
And that's what whipped you out of there.
Well, all right.
Miracle then is the right word.
You're lucky to be alive.
I want to thank those truckers for knowing what they're doing because if he put his brakes on, I would have been squashed.
Gotcha.
All right.
Well, they do know what they're doing and...
They're an amazing force out across this country.
A lot of them listening to this program on a nightly basis.
And I can tell you that for sure, because no matter where I go with my RV when I'm in the RV, the truckers will recognize me and of course the program.
And I know darn well that if I were out there in the middle of the night, driving out across the country, this is indeed what I would be listening to.
Bus for the Rockies, you are on the air.
Hi.
Hi Art, how are you doing tonight?
This is Blair in Sedona.
Blair, hi.
Hey, do you think our consciousness could be the controlling factor regarding the alien presence conundrum?
You know, i.e.
creators and or abductors?
It's not beyond reason for it to be so, and I certainly have considered it.
Consciousness is obviously an incredible force.
Could it be, you know, the monster of the Id, you know, coming from inside of us?
Yes, it could be.
Yeah, you know, when you talk with Mr. Sarita last week, it always seems the question comes up why they seem to stay in the background, yet abduct us as if they is a unified front of alien intelligences.
Yes.
Well, how about the notion that they represent multiple, sometimes conflicting, extraterrestrial, extradimensional, probable future selves entities, and that some form of what we might call, thank you Star Trek, prime
directive is an operation that precludes us to avert mass public
contact until we're ready, okay?
Well, the whole concept of prime directive, even though used in Star Trek and so it's easy therefore to
laugh it off, is such a universal
sort of truth when you think about it that even though they used it,
that doesn't make it any less sort of a universal truth.
I think there would be, don't you?
A prime directive?
Yeah, it's sort of like we're incubators, we're sort of like potential embryonic gods, and we've been given this great gift of, you know, free will.
And if there's true free will and free choice, then if we're evolving, evolving personalities also have that possible choice, Becoming self-confusing, self-disrupting, self-destroying.
Sure.
Yeah, so basically by our own personal consciousness and free will decision-making then, we draw a certain faction into our own personal and or group consciousness or reality.
You know, it might even be true, sir, that a lot of what we call the paranormal could actually be emanating from ourselves.
Boy, there you go.
It can't be overlooked.
Well, it'll be interesting to hear what Dean Radin has to say about his consciousness experiments.
Thanks, Art, for your time.
You're very welcome, and thank you for the call.
That's a very thoughtful call, and I've thought about that many times.
As you're searching for answers to what otherwise is completely inexplicable, so much of the paranormal, that has to be one of the things that you consider, and that is that the Active human brain, our brains, alive and functioning, that one aspect of them that we know very little about, accounts for a great deal of what we cannot explain.
Because we don't understand it.
You're on the air, Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the International Line.
Where are you, please?
I'm calling from Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada.
Way up in Nova... Alright, Nova Scotia.
Glad to hear from you.
Oh, good to be on the air.
I have a comment and a question.
Alright.
First of all, the comment is, I think I heard that angel smoking a cigarette.
I'm not sure.
Really?
And my comment is, or the question would be to you, is that I was on the New Year's Eve prediction show last year, and I was prediction number 35, and I just wondered, was it the Bush-Bin Laden connection coming into the light this year?
What precisely was your prediction?
The prediction was that the Bush family and Bin Laden family connection would be brought into the light.
Well, you know what?
First of all, it's not that strange that the Bin Laden family and the Bush family might have some connection.
The Bin Laden family is very wealthy, they have disowned Osama, and so what?
family new about nine eleven no hogwater all ballpark give me a break
come on give me a break well if the president of the night come on now if the
president of the united states new
to buildings in new york in the pentagon we're going to be uh... destroyer in
part destroyed you think that he would just sit back and do nothing to you
honestly believe that
i believe that paranoia is reality on a finer scalar Paranoia.
Oh, let me think about that statement.
Paranoia is a finer reality?
Paranoia is reality.
Reality on a finer scale.
Why?
Well, that's a quote from the movie The King of New York.
I thought it made quite a bit of sense.
I see.
Well, when you're discussing something like this, just throw in a movie quote.
That's it.
All right.
All right.
Thank you very much.
Lots of rock.
Here we go again.
Yeah, I'm really annoyed.
There are certain groups out there throwing stones at me because I just refuse to swallow the kind of bile that he just served up to me.
That the Bush family knew the Bin Laden family?
Sure, that's possible.
The Bin Laden family disowned Osama a long time ago, so that doesn't make sense.
And then, of course, he makes the leap of illogic that the president then knew that 9-11 was going to occur.
Please.
First time caller line, you're on the air.
Hello.
Yes, hi Art.
Hi.
There were three things real quick I want to tell you.
You had just mentioned something about this Shell Oil Company, what this gentleman was saying.
The chairman of Shell Oil.
Yeah.
They just had something on a science project about this cable.
We're on the verge of a new ice age.
They said we're right on the brink.
And they said it could come in overnight.
And if the weather stayed like it is right now, the heat and the moisture, They said that this will take us over the brink.
They've checked everything.
They've done core samples.
They've checked the shell animals.
The same thing's happening.
The salinization of the water is not going as far as it should and then coming back to us like it's supposed to.
Ma, when you hear the chairman of Shell Oil say something like that, and you hear the big insurance companies, Lloyd's and the rest of them, concerned they won't be able to cover things because they're going to get so bad, you better be listening!
Yeah, you should.
And another thing too, we've got some information tonight, some truth about Saddam Hussein, is that he did have weapons of mass destruction.
Russia was the one that told him to get them out of there before we got there.
So where are they?
They're in Libya, Syria, and the other countries, Lebanon around there, that's where they're sitting.
And anyway, I thought those were so important.
Well, if they actually had weapons of mass destruction, and they knew we were massing and preparing to attack, then why hide them?
Why would you take your best weapon and hide them instead of using them?
I don't know, but this minister, he had it on his program tonight, and he was furious.
He said, you people have been lying.
He said they had them the whole time.
That may well be, but again, it may well be, ma'am, but again, If they have them, and you're about to engage in a life-and-death battle, and from Saddam Hussein and his lieutenant's point of view, certainly they were about to engage in a life-and-death battle, then why not take out as many of the infidels, in quotes, as you can, and use them?
It just does not make sense.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
Hello.
Hello, Art?
Yes.
Hi, Art.
This is Danny out in Moreno Valley, California.
How you doing?
I'm doing great.
The reason I called, do you remember last week a lady calling in about the fireball over the Los Angeles area?
I do indeed, and then following that an unexplained fire which in her mind was attributed to the fireball?
Correct, she said she felt heat on her cheek and different things like that.
The interesting part about that is the station I listen to out here, our local station is KFI.
The night that she's talking about was the day after the fireball over Seattle.
I was listening to the news that evening.
I can't remember exactly what time it was.
It seemed like around 10 o'clock or something like that.
The KFI broke in and literally reported that a fireball had just been sighted.
There were many call-ins.
People were even saying it could have been a downed airplane.
The authorities couldn't find an impact point at that time.
And as the news developed, they would give us more news.
Right.
That's the last I heard of it.
But KFI actually reported the incident.
Fascinating.
I haven't heard anything else since, and I can't find anybody else either, until I heard that lady when she called you.
All right.
Well, that's how stories develop.
Maybe they will now look further into it and find out that, in fact, that fire was caused by something that crashed through the atmosphere.
Something.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hi.
Hi, Art.
Hi, I have a couple of things.
Do you remember this show in the 80s?
That's incredible.
Barely.
Alright, well, it was like a Ripley's, believe it or not.
Right.
I'm from a small town near Houston, in Texas, of course, Dayton, and there was a UFO incident down here that was on national television, and I went to high school and graduated with the guy who was, what happened, he was driving down the highway, and he and his grandma, and His mother.
Um, they had this UFO land in the middle of the highway, and they had radiation burns from it.
Oh!
Oh, yes, now I certainly recall the story.
Yeah, his name is Colby.
Anyway, he was a classmate of mine, and I thought you'd find that interesting.
Well, the whole story was interesting, and I recall the radiation burns.
Yes, I remember.
I remember very well that story, one of so many.
I have a few things to say.
First of all, I think Saddam Hussein was probably better for Iraq than we are.
We're just going in there and stuff and we have no real motive to be there.
I mean, you know.
Well, I don't know about that.
We probably don't have the stated motives.
Well, yeah.
Those were the weapons of mass destruction or his involvement in 9-11 or whatever.
None of that seems to be panning out.
Yeah.
Second of all, I also think that the government is like, they have a lot of stuff that they're not telling us.
And you know the White Knight, the rocket plane thing?
Yes.
I think that they're doing that.
Releasing that out to, you know, mislead us.
I think they're doing everything they can to get us off the hook.
Now wait a minute.
What you're referring to, taking off from Edwards in hours now, is a private sector thing by Burt Rutan.
It doesn't have anything to do with the government.
Oh, well.
But still though, I think that they're trying to do everything they can to get us off of the real problem, which is Iraq.
How old are you?
I'm 13.
13.
That's deep thinking for a 13 year old.
Oh, thank you.
You're very welcome.
Thank you for calling.
You're welcome.
Right, take care.
First time caller of the line, you're on the air.
Hello.
Hello, Mr. Bell.
Hi, I'm calling out of KONA 610 out of Kennewick.
Enjoy your show.
I've been listening for about three or four months now.
Yes, sir.
Yes, sir, just had a quick question for you.
Just being kind of new to the subject here, I just wondered, I know Stanton Friedman's coming up online here pretty soon, next to this coming week.
I was wondering if you had any suggestions for someone who's new to the subject as far as UFOs or abduction-type theories, who I might study, which materials, which books might be the best for introductory purposes?
Oh, gosh, there's legions of material for you to read.
But certainly a good start would be Stanton.
He's well-educated.
He's a nuclear physicist.
Wow.
Stanton has researched the crash at Roswell extensively.
And if you want a good beginning point, I would say Stanton would be the place.
Alrighty.
So you answered your own question.
Alrighty.
Well, I look forward to hearing from him.
Hey, I just want to let you know I enjoy your show, enjoy listening to you on the weekends.
I work a night shift there and you're the highlight of the shift there.
Thank you.
What is it you think that is going on as a newbie to all of this?
What do you think?
Well, it's certainly very interesting.
I was a longtime critic and I'm talking to some of my friends who claim that they saw a few things and kind of introduced me to your show.
It kind of changed my thinking just a little bit on the subject there, so it is interesting.
All right.
Well, you're in luck in another way as well.
Coming up in a moment is a fellow named Dean Radin, and he will introduce you to what may be going on in the middle of your own mind.
His book is The Conscious Universe.
It's going to be fascinating.
Stay right where you are.
To access the audio archives of Coast to Coast AM, log on to coasttocoastam.com.
Coast to Coast is a national park. It is located in the San Francisco Bay Area.
Did you know you can find more than just a few?
Did you know you can find more than just a few?
The inside sand, smell or touch the something inside the remains of the marching band.
The sight of a touch, or the scent of a sound, or the strength of an earthquake moves deep in the ground.
The wonder of fire that's to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again, or to fly to the sun without burning a wing, To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing.
To have all these things in a memory song.
And they used them to come.
to come to find.
I'm going to take this place on a trip you know me.
I'm going to take this place on a trip you know me.
To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
To talk with Art Bell from east to the Rockies, call toll free 800-825-5033.
line at area code 775-727-1295. The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll free 800-825-5033. From west of
the Rockies, call 800-618-8255. International callers may reach Art by calling your in-country
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to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
Dean Radin earned a B.S.E.E.
magna cum laude in electrical engineering from the University of Massachusetts.
He also has an M.S.
in electrical engineering and a Ph.D.
in psychology, both from the University of Illinois.
For ten years, he conducted research on advanced telecommunications systems at AT&T Bell Labs and GTE Labs.
Then, for the majority of the last 20 years, he has investigated psychic phenomena full-time in academic and industrial positions.
Dean served as a member of a classified research project investigating psychic phenomena for the U.S.
government at SRI International and headed PSI research programs in Silicon Valley for two scientific and industrial think tanks.
He has been senior scientist at the Institute of Noetic Sciences in 2001.
He is also adjunct faculty at Sonoma State University in California.
Dean's research has been featured in numerous magazines, and he has appeared on several radio and TV programs.
In addition, he's author of the book, The Conscious Universe, which I have in my hand.
And I thought, you know, it might make sense to read you The preface of this book, I thought it was really, really good.
He'll be here in a moment.
The preface says, Nonsense!
barked the man in the pinstripe suit.
There isn't a shred of evidence for psychic phenomena.
The clacking sound of the rails punctuated his blunt dismissal.
His companion, a young woman with luminous eyes and an immense halo of hair, was unimpressed.
Harry, she said, glaring at him.
The evidence is staring you in the face.
When I boarded the commuter train a few minutes earlier, I was looking forward to an uneventful trip, but as the train began to move, two latecomers rushed in and took seats right next to me.
Their argument clearly had been percolating for some time.
Harry, it seems, was an advertisement for Brook Brothers, complete with a tachet case and Wall Street Journal tucked under one arm.
She was dressed in saffron and carried a well-worn book bag.
In my meditation last night, she said, pouting, I received a message from Xeron.
Harry rolled his eyes and, voice dripping with sarcasm, said, Would that be the Xeron from the planet Pluto or the Xeron from Atlantis?
Oh, the one from Atlantis, of course.
You know the Plutonians aren't telepathic.
We communed mentally through his dolphin friends.
He said my psychic abilities would improve if I got my aura clean.
Harry's smirk at life's stupidity had permanently creased his forehead with an angry gash, but this last remark caused a vein to leap forward.
Exasperated, he caught my eye, leaned over, and said, in a stage whisper, Shirley's gone off the deep end with all this New Age crap.
I uttered a noncommittal grunt, not wishing to get sucked into what appeared to be a long-standing disagreement.
I did not have the luxury of remaining neutral, for Shirley overheard the remark and righteously replied, if you listened to Zeron for once, you wouldn't be such a skeptic.
His words are pure truth.
More like pure bull, he grumbled.
There isn't a shred of evidence for ESP telepathy or any of that hokum.
Not one shred, she protested.
If you feel it, that's proof enough.
You just live in your mind, your head too much.
By concession, Harry Bellowed, your belief about ESP doesn't mean it's true.
It just says that you believe it's true.
If science hasn't proved it, then it isn't true!
It's just superstitious, mythological, folklore, mumbo-jumbo, mystical crap!
I couldn't stand it anymore, so I said, excuse me.
But I couldn't help but overhear your conversation, actually.
There's quite a bit of scientific evidence for psychic phenomena.
They really do exist.
Shirley smiled You typically pressed her palms together and said, bless you with a bow.
At the same time, Harry's expression snapped into such a stupendous grimace, with one eye squeezed tight in the other, twitching like a guppy out of water, that I was a little concerned that his head might explode.
I quickly added, on the other hand, regardless of how persuasive your personal psychic experience may be, science has shown time and time again that personal beliefs are often mistaken.
After my little speech, both of my new acquaintances adopted scowls for different reasons.
Shirley's face wavered between awe and bewilderment, while Harry narrowed one functioning eye and said suspiciously, What makes you think you know anything?
I sighed, realizing that I had just made a mistake.
From past experience, I knew it would take about six hours of discussion about science, Psychology and psychics just to reach the starting ground of educated opinion.
I wanted to explain to Harry and Shirley that what many people think they know about psychic phenomena ain't necessarily so.
I wanted to describe how scientists had essentially proven that PSI exists using the same well-accepted experimental methods familiar to scientists in many disciplines.
I also wanted to explain why hardly anyone knew this yet.
But no one likes a lecture, so instead I wish I just had a book that I could hand to them that would explain all of this for me.
This is that book, and that book is called The Conscious Universe.
its author uh... dean rayden in a moment
so dean welcome back to the program Thanks very much, Art.
Now that it's published, do you carry a copy of this book around just in case you get on a train and run into a couple like that now?
I don't, but after listening to you read the preface, I think what I should do is have you read the entire book, and then I'll have an audio version that I can give to people.
Yeah, I've done a couple of those.
They're kind of fun, actually.
That's a great preface.
Just a great, great preface.
And, you know, here, this program is such a mixture of people.
I mean, there are the believers, the devotees, and then there is a very large core group of skeptics as well that listen to this program.
I'm not sure why.
I guess they want to hear how wild it can get or They want to be able to chuckle and know what's going on in the other camp.
I don't know why they listen, but they are very skeptical and they are out there listening tonight.
So if you were... I'm afraid I've got to put you back into the preface again and we've got to start sort of at the beginning.
If you were going to try to convince somebody that a lot of aspects of all of this are real, Dean, and it was the 101 version, how would you do it?
Well, I think After having conversations like this for years with people, including many, many skeptics, I've come to the conclusion that you can't convince anybody of anything, especially if you're starting from a strong position beforehand.
This goes for both believers and skeptics.
It's extremely difficult to push somebody's belief away from where it is, provided that it's quite strong to begin with.
And just to give you an example, from skeptics who read the preface, they come away thinking that I'm a super egotistical maniac of some type, because I'm making a claim in the preface that I think I know something.
And of course, from their point of view, which is on the hard right, in political terms, they think that they know what the truth is, and therefore anyone who says anything other than that That is basically nuts.
And on the other side, if somebody's coming from a strong left position, the New Age position, they will look at what I said and feel confused as to why I'm giving any credence at all to the skeptical side.
Well, in the middle then, there must be some group of generally open-minded people that you could attempt to impress with what you consider to be facts or things that would convince one that at least some of this certainly is true.
So, the middle section is around 60% of the population.
That's quite a few.
Which is fortunate, but that doesn't mean that there's 40% which we really can't push at all.
So, for the 60%, it depends a lot on whether I'm talking to a popular audience or a scientific audience.
For the scientists, I typically try to get an hour or so and I present data.
One screen after another in a PowerPoint show that shows Results of experiments that have been replicated many times by people for the last 50 years.
And once men of hard science have seen this, what kind of reaction do you get?
Usually what happens is the lecture will end and then they'll all rush up to the podium and ask questions like, is that for real?
Are you telling, like, this is for real?
And they get all excited because the implications of this for science in general are astounding.
So, in a few cases, the scientists will go off and try to replicate some of these effects.
That's what science does?
Well, a very small percentage will do it.
And the reason is that, you know, we all have our own agendas, and we're oftentimes paid to do research in a given area, and we don't have the luxury of being able to drop everything and try a new experiment.
But it does happen, and it happens often enough that we're able to advance the state of the art.
The difficulty, of course, that all of us have is that intertwined with the reality of PSI and the reality, perhaps, of global consciousness, and so much more that we talk about on this program, in the periphery of all this, or even mixed squarely within, are some people who, frankly, are off on fits of fancy or whatever and they do the whole concept a fair amount of damage.
Absolutely.
Now this, it is much, you know, we think about any discipline, any controversial discipline, that includes things like Cold Fusion and the few people who are seriously trying to research UFOs and so on, we're hurt far more by people who make wild claims than we are by people who are making highly skeptical remarks.
Yes.
And the reason is that we get painted by a very broad brush.
So if you have somebody who is making wild claims, That brush is going to drip over on us, and then a skeptic will look at us and assume that what I'm saying, for example, or what I've written in my book, is more New Age silliness.
And the consequence is that they simply won't pay any attention to it.
Sure.
That's the problem.
Well, I would think it's much like I'm sure the government's position must be with respect to UFOs.
Whether or not UFOs exist, one thing we know for sure, and that is our government is testing very exotic new aircraft that are frequently mistaken for UFOs.
So having ufologists out there and having UFO reports from the government's point of view must just be a real bonus.
Well, in the UFO business it probably does actually help.
You know, it helps to confuse people as to what may be real and what isn't.
Because you're right.
There are all kinds of interesting and exotic aircraft out there, which the government would just rather we didn't know about yet.
So, from a government's point of view, why dissuade some poor soul who thinks he just saw something from Venus?
Exactly.
Of course, there is another side to that story.
I was once speaking to a friend of mine who works at the CIA, and in a sense is the real-life Uh, Mulder from X-Files, the person who is given the crazy things to track down.
Really?
One of the things that he was looking into, and I have to preface this by saying I don't know very much about the UFO field, that's not my area, but I speak to people who are knowledgeable about this.
And so, I asked him what does he think about UFOs, given that he's had the opportunity to investigate.
He pretty much dismissed all of it as, it's like, it's our stuff, basically.
With one exception.
And that was the exception having to do with cattle mutilation.
At that time I had never even heard about the cattle mutilation business.
I assume that your listeners will know about it.
Oh yes.
Okay, so he was on a number of quick reaction responses to calls for something funny happening with the cattle.
Yes.
And of course the reason why the CIA and others got involved is because Farmers went to their senators and the senators went up and then, you know, the message came from on high, go figure out what's going on here because you're making some cattlemen angry.
So to make a long story short, whatever is happening with some of the cattle mutilations, it looks like it is a real phenomenon.
It's not just predators doing their thing.
Many times, Dean, there have been reports of eyewitnesses seeing cattle actually rising to craft, all that sort of thing?
And then, of course, they're being dumped and God, the stories... Linda Bolton Howe covers this in great detail frequently.
No one's ever caught.
Ever.
Ever.
So... And the important point here is the people who investigate and get there very quickly do not know what it is.
And you can imagine that if it were common knowledge that people who you would hope would know what's going on, people who can get there quickly and have By satellites and all methods that can be used to figure it out, and they cannot, that would be somewhat disruptive.
It would simply be easier for the mainstream message to be, well, there's nothing to it.
So that we don't disturb people.
Do you have any thoughts on what might be up with any of that, by the way?
Well, my own sense is that we're not dealing with E.T.
in the sense of Hardware.
Or even with extraterrestrial intelligence.
Instead, my own bias here is, because I tend to take a psychological view of these things, is that the distinction between the subjective and the objective is nowhere near as clean as we usually think.
That there's something like an imaginal world.
It's the world that's living in between The subjective side, or you know, the world inside your head.
Yes.
And the objective, which is the world outside your head.
There's a middle world, the imaginal world.
That world sometimes actually manifests.
And so, what it has to do with cattle mutilations, I have absolutely no idea.
But it could, I guess you're suggesting it could be a manifestation of this portion of the mind?
It could be something like A collective mind or maybe individual's minds that are manifesting in a physical way, but only quasi-physical.
The reason I say this is based on fifty years of laboratory experiments which show that there is a relationship between what goes on inside your head and what goes on outside in a direct way.
What are some of the greatest examples of any physical manifestation of the mind that you can name?
Well, rather than saying a specific experiment, I think it's actually more persuasive to talk about classes of experiments.
So, one of the classic experiments we have are intention, mental intention, being directed at random events.
An electronic circuit creating streams of random bits.
Man controlling machine.
But directly, through the mind.
And the hypothesis is actually very simple.
It assumes that mind and matter are complementary in the sense that they're like two sides of the same coin.
They're different than each other, but they're linked in a very solid way that makes them go together.
So under that model, that hypothesis, if the mind becomes very quiet through meditation or through high attention or something that makes the mind quiet, And the hypothesis says, well, maybe the matter side will also become quiet.
If we think about this from a, like an internal body state, if you sit down to meditate and your mind is all agitated before you settle down, your body actually tends to be agitated as well.
Right.
After a while, your mind begins to calm down and your body becomes quiet.
So, by analogy, if mind and matter are linked, and if you have somebody sit down and meditate and they become extremely quiet both inside It's also the feather touch, isn't it?
and their body, then perhaps in the vicinity you will find that physical systems that are
not connected to the person will also become quiet.
The way we test that is with randomness because it's very easy to detect when randomness is
no longer acting quite as random.
It's also the feather touch, isn't it?
In other words, I would think that increasingly difficult would be moving or affecting large
or heavier objects, but when you're talking about randomness, you're talking about a computer
program that's running, spitting out something eternally random.
So it's a feather touch experiment in a way, isn't it?
Yes, although the source of the randomness is not a computer algorithm.
It's not a computer software.
All right, well, we'll talk about what it is in a moment.
were at the bottom of the hour. But nevertheless, whatever the source of the generation is,
nevertheless, a feather touch, something ever so slightly manipulating that which was random
and all of a sudden begins spitting out the understandable.
The whole world was on fire, no one could save me but you.
The strange world bizarre made foolish people.
I never dreamed that I'd meet somebody like you. I never dreamed that I'd lose somebody like you.
and I'll see you next time.
He's got this dream of buying some land He's gonna give up the blues and the one night stands And then he'll settle down in this quiet little town And forget about everything But you know he'll always keep moving Though he's never gonna stop moving
Cause he's rolling, he's the Rolling Stone When you wake up it's a new morning
Sun is shining it's a new morning You're going, you're going home
Hooray!
To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 7.
The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
To talk with Art Bell from East of the Rockies, call toll free at 800-825-5033.
line is area code 775-727-1222. To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free
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International callers may reach Art Bell by calling your in-country Sprint Access
number, pressing Option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
From coast to coast, and worldwide on the Internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
I have always believed, not always actually, no, that's a lie.
This has come of recent years, but I believe the human mind, together and perhaps collectively, May turn out to be the strongest force in the entire universe.
My guest is Dean Radin.
in his book is a conscious universe.
Once again, Dean Raden, Dean, you were saying the generator of the randomness in this case we're talking about was not a computer.
That's right.
But rather what?
The source is typically electronic noise, through something like a Zener diode, which creates something called electron tunneling, which is a quantum effect.
Right.
Or we have a new type of random generator, which is based on the decision that a photon makes when it hits a half-silvered mirror.
And that also is a quantum process.
So ultimately, the random events that we're working with are quantum physical processes, which are, as far as we can tell, completely random.
So the point of using these is that you're right, it's like a feather touch.
It would take close to no energy at all in order to influence the effect.
And it also is convenient because these things are very easy to monitor.
With a computer, so you can have completely automated experiments.
Dean, excuse me.
Do you think, Dean, that the feather touch experiments that you're doing are necessary because of the nature of the power of the mind to influence such events?
Being inherently weak at this point?
And do you think that we are at its very beginning of development?
In other words, do you think that that power That's an excellent question.
What a good question.
A complete answer would take around six hours.
But the short answer, I think, is that we're dealing with something which is very similar to talent, like sports talent.
Sure.
Consider how many people make it into the Olympics.
That is a pool of possible people.
And we're probably dealing with something like one thousandth of a percent of the population have the physical qualities and probably the mental qualities to be able to do Olympic level sports.
So somewhere at that level, there are people who can do, who have mental capabilities that are way beyond other people.
And in fact, if you look in history at people who are able to Repeatedly do what we call macroscopic movements.
Moving things that, you know, you can see moving.
You don't need statistics in order to see it.
Yes.
The fingers on one hand are the number of people who have reliable witnesses saying that yes, something seemed to have occurred.
But would you affirm, can you affirm, that in fact those people you can count on one hand really do exist?
I think they do, and I'm much more convinced of that now than I was even five years ago.
The reason is that, and this goes, by the way, across the board for any kind of psychic claim, that if somebody makes a strong claim, like bending metal or moving an object, I think I'm like most people in that basically I don't have any reason to believe it unless not only do I see it happen, but even better, if I can do it myself.
Yes, otherwise, they don't have any basis to believe it.
So I certainly have had friends that have said, and it comes to metal bending in particular,
that they've bent a metal bar that you can't bend physically, or that they've bent a spoon
or something like that, and I said, oh yeah.
I'm thinking in the back of my mind that they're probably dissociated and they don't know their
own strength and all of the usual explanations.
Isn't that interesting?
I mean, it really is interesting that you would say that short of being able to do it yourself, no amount of observation of anybody else doing it would be satisfactory.
We live in a world of illusion being almost the norm, don't we?
Well, but for good reason.
I mean, you know, as I say in the book over and over again, it's extremely easy to be fooled.
And so, anybody who starts looking into psychic phenomena, if they're not also reasonably well-trained in close-up magic and illusion techniques, to say nothing of ordinary psychological problems, then you're going to fool yourself fairly quickly.
So, I've spent a fair amount of time, when I used to live in Las Vegas, I would hang out in the magic shops, and for example, a couple of years ago, somebody came to me claiming that they could bend metal, and to prepare for this person coming to the lab, I went to a local magic shop and I said, ìCan you show me a trick or something that I can buy to bend a spoon?î Then he said, ìWell, I have eight different methods.
Which trick would you like to get?î So I bought all of them.
This is one of the reasons why magicians in particular are so skeptical, because they know that it's very easy to be fooled.
So I've been very skeptical.
In fact, I'm skeptical across the board.
Well, I'm curious.
When this person strolled into your lab and did his spoon bending, were you able to bust him on the spot?
Not on the spot, no.
Really?
No.
We had two video cameras on him.
At the time, it looked real.
And we had two cameras in two different angles because... And in fact, the camera people were told, one of you to do a close-up on the hand and the spoon, and the other one get a wider shot.
Because oftentimes there's a distraction that goes on.
Sure.
And it's changed.
So we were able to tell both from the wide shot and the close up that what we were seeing was an illusion.
And it was incredibly good.
But we could see it when we went back frame by frame and see how the trick was done.
But it was a trick.
It was a trick.
Yes.
It was a good trick.
But it was a trick.
What a trick.
Well, around the world, including in Russia, there have been reports of fascinating experiments of people Doing all kinds of things, bending laser beams and light and all the rest of it.
Anything to all of that?
Well, again, five years ago I would have said my probability meter was quite low.
Today my probability meter is a little bit higher.
And it's because of a personal experience.
I wouldn't expect anybody to accept it, but I'm just saying that for me, my meter has changed a little bit because Something happened which I know cannot occur through illusion or force.
All right.
This I would be interested, very much interested in hearing about.
Okay.
So, I went to one of these PK metal bending parties that Jack Hauk often gives.
The reason I went there is because I wanted to sit within a foot or two of somebody who said that they did something which I know cannot be done by force, which is Take a large soup spoon and bend the bowl of the spoon.
Bend the bowl over.
Yes.
Not to bend the neck, which is fairly easy, but to bend the bowl.
Okay.
I've measured how much force it takes to do that, and I know that no ordinary person without some kind of leverage can do that with their hands.
Right.
So I found a lady who said that she had done it before, so I sat down about a foot and a half from her and watched very closely because I wanted to see this happen.
At the same time, I was holding a spoon and I was trying to mimic what she was doing.
And it's a big, heavy, old-fashioned type soup spoon.
So, I'm watching her, I'm watching her, nothing's happening, and then somebody points out to me, look what you did, meaning, look what I did.
And I had, somehow, managed to bend the bowl of the spoon about halfway over.
Oh my goodness!
And then, yes, I'm looking at it, thinking to myself, oh my goodness, and the people around me are getting all excited, and they said, push it all the way over.
I figured, well, okay, why not?
Before I did that, I looked at my fingers because I wanted to see whether or not I was applying force.
Yes.
And I had not been applying force.
I was touching it, but I was touching it just gently.
So I, with one finger, taking the edge of the spoon, I simply pressed it all the way over and basically folded the bowl of the spoon over.
And then, you know, I'm sort of looking at it dumbfounded.
Yes.
Because I know I did it.
What came to mind was that people would talk about the spoon feeling spongy or like taffy.
And that is exactly what it felt like.
It felt like clay or like a piece of taffy momentarily.
And then it hardened up immediately and it couldn't budge and to this day it hasn't budged.
Well, you can only imagine that your mind, if you did it, Your mind somehow modified the atomic structure of that spoon at a certain point, enabling it to be taffy-like.
I mean, there really is no... So, after this event, I immediately go back to the literature, and there was a lot done on this in the 1970s.
And the conclusion that was reached back then was, it is a real phenomena.
It doesn't happen all the time.
When it happens, it leaves a mark.
You know, the thing is bent, so you can study it.
And what it looks like is so there are there's extreme heat applied to the grain boundary inside the spoon.
And of course, if you're trying to bend it in a certain way, then if the grains all melt along a certain line, then it'll be very easy to bend it.
So it can still be a very microscopic effect.
But nevertheless, it causes a macroscopic result.
Do you recall anything unusual about your thinking processes during that time?
Not really.
I was trying to pay close attention to the woman who never ended up bending the spoon at all.
So I think in general I was not paying attention to what I was doing.
Although you were paying attention to the intended process.
Yes.
Yes, I was trying to mimic something I wished to occur.
And so, you know, being a scientist, I immediately wanted to go out and replicate this.
Oh, yes.
You're like holding an impossible object.
And I had tried and I wasn't able to do it.
And I'm going back on the plane, going home, and I'm trying to bend a spoon.
And suddenly I get a moment of horror, which made me understand something about what's going on here.
The horror was, I'm trying to bend a spoon in my hand.
If I'm successful, does that mean that the wing of the plane is going to fall off?
I don't know anything about what just happened here.
Yes, yes.
And as a result, I suddenly realized something about the fear that is associated with these large-scale effects, even though ultimately it might be a microscopic effect.
Thank you very much for bolstering what I already felt.
You know how I feel about this.
Right.
So now we should back up for the sake of the audience a little bit.
Let's start out with the Global Consciousness Project itself.
Not everybody in this audience even understands what that is.
Could you explain it?
Okay.
And by the way, this is a nice segue because in the Global Consciousness Project we use electronic random number generators.
We're trying to change the distribution of random numbers coming out of these devices.
We detect the effects through statistics.
By the way, are you still using computers, Dean?
Or are computers still being used?
We now have 70 sites in basically every country around the world.
Most of the U.S.
states.
And what we're doing is we're running these random generators 24 hours a day, continually.
Every five minutes they package up samples of of random bits that they have, and they send them off to a server at Princeton.
Right.
And anybody can go look at the website if they want to.
It gives a full list of the results, and not only that, you can download any of the data.
But I would warn you that if you download the data now, it's a lot of data.
It's like 100 megabytes per day, because there's so much data being generated.
And the point of all this is that we make the hypothesis that mind and matter are related in some way.
And this essentially is taking what we used to do in the laboratory, one person trying to mentally influence a random generator, and expanding it up to the size of the world.
So we take advantage of large-scale events that tend to attract a lot of people's attention around the world.
Like 9-11?
Like 9-11.
Alright, so all these eggs, I think Princeton called them eggs, didn't they?
Yeah, egg means electro-diagram.
This was a take-off on the idea of an EEG.
Right.
Electroencephalogram.
Right.
Instead of taking the brain wave of a brain, we're taking the brain wave of Gaia's mind.
The world's mind.
The world's mind.
That's where the electro-Gaia-gram idea came from.
Alright, so these eggs are scattered all over the U.S., all over the world, and they report back then to Princeton, and anything, I guess the idea is, anytime You begin getting large reports from many eggs that non-randomness has begun to occur.
It registers on some kind of graph somewhere.
Is that?
That's the hypothesis.
So the way that we test this, the way that we have been testing it from the beginning when we started in 1998, is there are two basic types of events that can occur.
It's either something planned, like New Year's, or something not planned, like 9-11.
So if it's planned, we make a prediction in advance.
We're going to look at the data at this time for this length of time.
If it's an unexpected event, then we use the same four-hour period, but we, of course, have to look at it retrospectively.
And we start from whenever the event occurred, and we go out four hours later.
Actually, we start 10 minutes before it occurs and go out later.
So to date, we've done 174 events.
And these are massive events like 9-11, their meditations, worldwide meditations, the Madrid bombings, and so on.
Lots and lots of things.
Actually, a lot has happened since we last spoke.
The Iraq War.
That's right.
And in fact, just to give you a sense of it, 9-11 was event number 80, and we're now on event 174.
Wow.
And we're now on event 174.
Wow.
So we're downstream quite a bit.
One of the things that we've done is we wanted to see, well, what is the overall evidence at this point that we're
getting non-random behavior?
And the odds, as of a few days ago, was somewhere between 10 million to 100 million to one.
And the reason why there are two different odds there is because we did attract the attention of some outside physicists, because we published an article in Foundations of Physics Letters, which is a mainstream physics journal, And we've had people then go back into the raw data and replicate, re-analyze what we have been doing independently to make sure that we hadn't made a mistake.
And they end up with a slightly different result.
They have 10 million to 1, whereas our result might be 100 million to 1.
There's a difference there, but they're still far from chance.
Yes, far, far from chance.
Well, I recall that when I first began To learn of the existence of this project.
Of course, I went straight to the people at Princeton, and frankly, they didn't want much at all to do with me.
In fact, they didn't want much at all to do with any kind of publicity.
They were scared to death of publicity, is what I recall.
Well, for good reason.
I mean, the analogy here is that we start talking about the Hubble telescope, And you say, you know, tonight, if you look out overhead, you can see the Hubble telescope.
Let everyone shine your flashlight and light it up.
And of course, that defeats the purpose of the thing itself.
What we're dealing with is a measuring instrument, which is in the background, measuring mass consciousness.
And so we don't want people to direct their thoughts at it, because it'll screw up the monitoring process.
Screw up the whole experiment, really?
Potentially, sure.
So that's why the experiment is designed as a passive monitor and not as something to be aimed at.
Aimed at is right.
And that's all it takes to aim at it is to think about it, right?
For a large number of people to be coherent in their attention.
So, I mean, unfortunately right now a lot of people are being coherent in the sense that they're all paying attention to this topic.
Right.
So we are adding noise to the system.
Um, as a matter of fact, on a prior show, we actually made an attempt, I believe we had sort of a, kind of a quasi-official report going on and got back some information that indicated that we'd had some effect, right?
The possibility of an effect.
Yes, uh-huh.
And, of course, the, it just went, I say, I exaggerate, but it went right off the charts at the 9-11 event.
There's some things about it that bear discussion.
For example, the fact that it seemed to begin to go off the charts, my words, prior to the actual event itself.
Is that right?
That is right.
Three to four hours before the events unfolded, there began to be a very striking change in the random numbers.
Yes.
Now, which leads us We probably won't make it because of the time right now, but when we come back... Two questions of time, actually, right?
Yes.
When we come back, I'll tell you something which is far more amazing.
All right.
About 9-11.
All right.
Stay right there.
My guest is Dean Radin, and to some degree, we are violating the sanctity of the experiment going on at Princeton by even talking about this.
But it is indeed very momentous, and I feel like you all should know about it.
And it's all wrapped around Oh, some of those early experiments that I did that I don't mess with anymore for I think very good cause.
From the high desert in the middle of the night, I'm Art Bell.
don't go anywhere people
yeah yeah
do something about the whole the wild card line in area codes
The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
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From coast to coast, and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM, with Art Bell.
Back when I was probably, to some degree, recklessly experimenting with this newfound Power.
That's what you want to call it.
I remember... I remember calling it the Law of Unintended Consequences, but Dean Radin said it very elegantly.
Being on an airplane.
Remember that?
Trying to spoon bend, and then thinking about the aircraft wing.
You know, if the plane had gone down, there simply would have been an intensive FAA investigation, which probably would have ended with a sentence like structural failure or something, but that would have been deemed, deemed at bat.
So that's a much more elegant way of explaining the whole thing.
The law of unintended consequences, that certainly would have been one.
I believe we were just about to get something even more fantastic.
Dean?
Yes.
In August of 2000, I launched a website called gotpsi.com, in which we have a suite of PSI games.
Little games that people can take to see if they might be psychic.
All right, again, that's GOTPSI.
That's G-O-T-P-S-I, right?
It's a takeoff on the Got Milk campaign.
GOTPSI.
This is hosted by the Boundary Institute, which I co-founded in 2000.
Just a simple little game.
A simple little game.
And that game has been running since August 2000.
Today, we have 39 million trials by about 158,000 people around the world, and we still get 20,000 to 30,000 trials a day.
What does this little game play like?
There are six different games, and the one game I'll talk about now is the simplest possible game, the kind of game that was created by J.B.
Ryan back in the 1930s.
You're presented with the backs of five cards on the screen.
And you're to select the one that you think the computer will then randomly select.
So it's a precognition test.
Right.
So one run on this test will be 25 cards, 25 trials.
Each time you select, you try to select the one that the computer will randomly select.
And so we provide a hall of fame and we provide feedback and you can see that people are involved in competitions and so on.
Yes, but your motive is not to just let them Well, have fun guessing about stuff.
You obviously have a motive here.
How many people got PSI?
Well, that's a slightly different question.
In fact, we are looking for talent.
I'm sure you are.
I'm sure that's the exact reason for this.
So how many people got PSI?
Well, we think that the previous estimates were something like a tenth of a percent of the population.
And for this kind of game, It's more difficult.
This is not the way that Psy typically manifests in the real world.
So it's a much lower percentage, but there are some people who appear to have some talent.
But there's another reason for doing this, and that is that the task as seen on the computer is a very simple task, but there are hidden things.
going on behind the scenes, that we're also testing, which obviously I can't talk about because then obviously people will be thinking about that.
So let me just say that each of the tasks in this Gottsai site is a valid test, but there are other things happening which allow us to test.
There's more than meets the eye.
Yes, there always is.
Now here's the link back to 9-11.
Yes.
One of the things, since we have thousands of trials per day by hundreds of people around the world, We can do something very simple, which is take a daily performance measure.
How well did people perform as a group every day?
Interesting question, yes.
And so we end up with a graph, and now we're going for about 1,300 days, starting in August of 2000, going through 9-11 and up to today.
And so I was looking at this data for a completely different reason, and two weeks ago, I happened to analyze it in a way that I hadn't looked at it before, and I saw a whopping anomaly.
I didn't know at the time when I looked at it, when is that?
What date is it?
So I went back and looked at it and I was shocked to find that this big drop in the curve occurs
14 days before 9-11, goes up to 9-11 and then immediately goes right back up.
You're talking about the percentage of good hits you're getting just tanked?
Is that what you're saying?
Two weeks before 9-11.
And I have a picture of this on the Noetic's website.
Over what period of time are we judging this little slice that you're talking about?
What's the totality of the period of time you've examined?
It drops dramatically 16 days.
I mean, you know, normally with the kind of curve we're talking about... No, no, no, no.
What I'm asking here is the entire period of observation, how long has this been going on now?
Have you ever seen anything like it before?
I'm trying to get a sense of... So it's gone 1,300 days.
Ah.
Since August 2000.
No, there is no other time of such a dramatic drop.
In fact, there's a way to statistically test how often would you see something like this by chance.
And we've applied that test to this.
The odds are 5,000 to 1 of seeing this sort of drop in this three and a half year period.
Alright.
So it's a pretty dramatic effect.
It's visually very obvious.
And as I said, if you go to the IONS website, the Institute of Genetic Sciences website, we have a link there that will go to a page where you can see this thing.
And in what manner is it demonstrated?
Like a graph?
There's a graph.
There's a graph, okay.
There's a graph and then there's a second graph which shows the odds against chance of the first graph.
Because unless you're used to looking at statistics, you may not see that it's really quite remarkable.
Alright, so we have this drastic drop in and around 9-11.
What do you suppose that might mean?
Well, my speculation is that, and by the way, Around 9-11, many people after the fact were reporting that they had bad feelings.
They had premonitions, they didn't feel well that day, all those kinds of things.
Yes.
What this suggests to me is that for about two weeks before 9-11, that a lot of people were beginning to psychically get impressions of something bad coming up.
And this probably unconsciously.
Yes.
And when we get unconscious bad feelings, the first thing that most normal people do is repress it.
Because who wants to think about bad news all the time?
That's right, yes.
So in the process of repressing those psychic premonitions, when you do a psi task, you will also tend to suppress your ability to do the task.
Gotcha.
And what it will end up doing then is what we in the business call psi-missing.
In other words, you do know what the right answer is, but you will avoid it.
You will actively avoid it.
That's part of the repression.
And by avoiding it, you will end up getting a dramatic drop in performance.
And what that curve says to me is that, as I said, this is not a minor drop.
It's a really massive drop, and it stayed that way for two weeks.
It suggests that there's something like a mass mind premonition of something bad about to occur, and it was repressed.
For about two weeks.
So I looked back in the data and tried to see if there was an event that we know now.
Retrospectively, did something happen at the end of August?
You know, like, was a decision made or something happened that put things into action?
And so, as we just learned recently from the 9-11 Commission, that it looks like somewhere near the end of August that a go decision was made.
Somebody said, OK, we're going to go do it.
I mean, this is all high speculation, of course, but I'm wondering whether some aspect of many people somehow got that, and they were sensing that something bad was coming up.
So, one of the implications of this is, in the Global Consciousness Project, we saw an effect a couple of hours before the events unfolded.
That's sort of interesting, but a couple hours may not be enough time for anybody to do anything about it.
Now, with this, we're using human beings, in a sense.
Not as random number generators, but as detectors of something.
Right.
And given that we see an effect that's two weeks in advance, it may be that this is a much more effective way of acting as an early alert system.
It may be.
So the next question is, can we tell where something is about to unfold?
And so that, I don't know the answer to that yet.
I'm working on it now.
That the geographic diversity of these eggs, for example, would help in the geographic... Would there be a larger... Well, maybe I've got a better way of asking it.
If you look back at the data prior to 9-11 that did spike, do you find that in the northeast part of the country, in geographic proximity to the area where it actually happened, New York City, for example, you got Higher intensity deviations from the norm?
Yes.
That was a yes?
Yes.
You have looked at that?
Yes.
So there might be a geographic way to pin down where something is going to happen?
Yes.
Oh wow!
We probably need more eggs in order to get a better topological map, but we did do a We first look at hemispheres and then continents and then, you know, east and west coast and so on.
Right.
And the strongest effect occurred in the northeast of the United States.
That's for the Global Consciousness Project.
Boy, did I ask the right question!
Yeah.
Well, that's the obvious question to go, because just knowing that something's about to occur is interesting, but knowing where is much more interesting.
Yes.
So I haven't done the same sort of analysis yet for our card test.
Because if it turns out that they are also, there's a bigger effect by where people are, then that becomes extremely important.
Because then it actually might act as an early warning system.
Well, we're a long way from being able to call up, you know, the governor of Georgia and telling him to watch out for what's going to happen in Atlanta here in a couple days or a week or whatever, but this certainly is a lot of progress, isn't it?
Well, it actually is very unexpected.
Both the Global Consciousness Project premonition, if that's what it is, and this CARD test, these were both unexpected results.
So, I always try to pay close attention to an effect that was not predicted beforehand.
Because if we only get things that we predict beforehand, then maybe we're just looking at something like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
But if we take advantage of these serendipitous discoveries, That's really by grabbing something by the tail and you got something.
Yes, well it seems to me you do have something by the tail and maybe this is a little humorous question and maybe not.
And maybe you shouldn't answer it.
But have you yet detected any super people?
I mean people who have played your little game and both with what is the obvious and perhaps the not so obvious that you can't tell us about.
Is there any super people Yet?
No.
No super people.
No super people?
We thought we had a super person, but then we figured out that they were using a method of cheating, which we hadn't thought about beforehand.
I see.
And once we locked that down, the presumably super person turned out not to be so super after all.
Is the government now beginning to I don't know if you could even tell me if they did, but are they beginning to show interest in what you're doing?
I would say that people are paying attention, but not officially.
If a super person did appear, do you have the ability to know that person's IP number, track them down, and they should expect, you know, a knock on the door?
We are tracking things like IP number, but whether that would lead us to an individual or not is only in very unusual circumstances.
Could we find the person?
But a lot of people register for the test.
You know, we know we have names, we have emails, and so on.
And in fact, we've already done a talent test.
And we're about to launch the second phase of the talent test.
What would happen if you found I don't know, the Einstein of P.S.I.
I mean, if you stumbled across the Einstein of P.S.I., have you all talked about what would ensue?
We would jump for joy.
Well, if you finish jumping.
The thing is, by the way, P.S.I.
only means pounds per square inch.
The word is psi.
It's just simply a letter of the Greek alphabet.
Meaning roughly psyche, having to do with the mind.
Well, after you jumped up and down and you're all happy that you found this person, what would be in store for that person?
If they were really good and they were not interested in participating, we would never find them.
Because they'd know where we are and they would just be somewhere else.
And I think actually that the very small percentage of extremely talented people out there can easily avoid any detection.
Because, I mean, they have that ability.
Do you blame them?
No, not at all.
Not at all.
I think, actually, when we're lucky and we end up with someone who's very talented and who wants to work in a laboratory, that is an exceptionally unusual... Pretty rare.
Most people are going to go running.
Well, I think, actually, they're very deft.
They don't actually have to run anywhere.
They just use The mental Aikido, like a Jedi Master, and they just disappear.
Well, I would think, I mean, you've got to put yourself in such a person's shoes.
And if you do that, I think very quickly, you'd probably not volunteer to go be a lab rat because of the consequences.
I mean, if you're for real, then, I don't know, you're a lab rat and I don't know who you could trust not to cut you open, ultimately.
Well, I don't think we would learn anything if we actually tried to dissect people, but I know what you mean.
On the other hand, there are some people who, like in the early days at SRI, doing the government work, Pat Price was a former police commissioner.
He was exceptionally well-talented, and the reason why he volunteered is because he was patriotic.
He wanted to use his skills for some good.
And of course the program at the time was classified and so it was very unlikely that anybody would find out for a long time.
So I think something like that might appeal to some people who are skilled and would be interested in using their skills to help keep us all safe.
Safe, yes.
A Conway in Deer Park, Texas Alright, this is very interesting, very interesting.
If your assumption is correct, then we're done for.
There are millions of Muslims praying at least three times a day, just as hard, for the destruction of the United States.
Due to this mass Well, we've looked in the Global Consciousness Project to see where the large effects occur.
Well, I don't know whether that part is true or not, but there are at least a very large number of people who would
wish us Ill and would pray for that. I mean intensely concentrate
and pray for for something bad to happen to us
Well, we've looked in the global consciousness project to see where the large effects occur since we have a hundred
and seventy four events of different types
Yes.
We can see, well, what's bigger?
A natural disaster, an act of terrorism, a day of meditation, that sort of thing.
By far the biggest effect are celebrations.
Really?
Yeah.
Celebrations, meditations, turning of the New Year.
That's where most of the stuff happens.
Positive stuff.
Positive stuff.
Which is a big relief.
You know, we didn't know this when we first started this experiment.
We didn't have enough trials.
But now we're beginning to see that most of the action occurs on positive coherence in people.
Isn't that interesting?
That doesn't mean that we don't see effects on terrorist acts, because we do.
Right.
But they're just not anywhere near as big as those beneficial thoughts, which is a kind of a sigh of relief.
You know, again, it was surprising.
We didn't know what we were going to get beforehand, but that's what the data is pointing to.
But the person who wrote the email is correct.
I do think, actually, that if you have, essentially, in a psychic space, competing wishes, that they tend to clash, and it creates anxiety, and it creates nervousness.
At the very least.
At the very least.
Hold on, Dean.
Dean Radin is my guest, and we're talking about The Conscious Universe.
Indeed we are.
That's the name of his book.
They don't come easy.
You know it don't come easy.
They don't come easy.
You know it don't come easy.
But the thing you do is if you wanna sing the blues, And you know it don't come easy.
You don't have to shout or bleep the vowels, you can even play the keys.
They seem so hard to find.
I tried to reach for you, but you have lost your mind.
Whatever happened to our love?
I wish I understood.
It used to be so nice.
Is it just the face of the moon?
So when you near me darling, can't you hear me?
It's so easy The love you gave me, nothing else can save me
It's so easy When you're gone, how can I even try to go on?
When you're gone, though I try, how can I get it on?
Do Talk With Art Bell Call the wildcard line at area code 7
The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll free at 800-825-5033.
line is area code 775-727-1222. To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free
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number, pressing Option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903. From coast to coast and
worldwide on the Internet, Art Bell.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
I have one absolutely unambiguous, absolutely clear case of precognition in my life.
precognition in my life.
It couldn't have been chance.
It couldn't have been random.
It couldn't have been anything but the real thing.
It was the real thing.
Having said that, it's never happened again.
It only ever happened one time.
Try as I might, I can't bring it back.
But what I tell you right now, when it happened, it was a real McCoy.
No question about it.
Without boring Dean and the audience by repetitively telling my
pathetic little but interesting tale, Dean when it happened, when this
precognitive experience happened I was so shocked I actually fell to my knees.
I was kind of dizzy when I realized I had just experienced a real serious precognitive event.
Got up off my knees after a while and responded to the event in progress.
But, you know, it just blew me away.
There's never been anything like it before or since, and I can't make it happen if I try.
So, I don't know what science is going to do with something like this.
The abilities themselves seem to be random.
I don't know how else to put it for a lot of people.
Now I suppose there may be a few out there, and I know you're looking for them, that just have it or can do it on command.
I think that evolution has pushed us in the direction of making it difficult to make these things occur, which is one of the reasons why they're so rare.
And the reasoning goes like this.
Let's say in some primordial state In fact, we know this is true from quantum theory.
The world is fully interconnected.
We know that that's true.
Yes.
Well, if human experience can feel that interconnectedness, then it seems likely that some part of us is aware of what's going on elsewhere and also else when.
Unfortunately, from the point of view of survival of an organism, that's a real bad thing, because If I'm wandering around in the forest and I'm paying attention to the tiger that's not in front of me, but the four million tigers that are scattered all around the planet, the likelihood of me continuing to live is quite low because the tiger in front of me is going to jump on me.
So I can see that the organism has evolved in such a way as to pay very tight attention to what is close to me both in space and in time.
That's the only way I can survive.
What that means is that we've evolved over millions of years to become creatures that are not psychic.
In fact, we're really good at not being psychic.
So, if this hypothesis were true, then you would say, well, if we really do have connection, we can connect to this interconnected world out there, it's not going to happen in the ordinary waking state, because that's the state that evolution has pushed.
It might happen in a state We're not in an ordinary state like dreaming, or a drug-induced state, or some other very high emotional state, something of that sort.
And in fact, when you look at where the spontaneous psychic events occur, they're very, very rarely occurring in the ordinary waking state.
Since you mentioned it, I have to ask about this.
You mentioned perhaps even a drug-induced state.
Is there any ongoing experimentation that you're aware of, Dean, involving induced drug states of one sort or another?
Yes.
They're not happening in the United States, because it's not legal here, but they are happening elsewhere.
They are, huh?
In Brazil, in Amsterdam, where the laws are different.
Drugs like ayahuasca are being used, and drugs like psilocybin, and they do Produce better results in laboratory tests.
Oh, really?
I mean, but we don't need to go as far as hallucinogenic drugs.
Just dream state experiments do better, typically, than waking state.
So, I mean, what all of the research suggests is that the last thing that you want to do for a psychic experiment is ordinary state conscious report.
Right.
You want to use unconscious measurements like physiological changes, you want to use experiments where you don't tell people that it's actually a psychic experiment, it's something else, or they're dreaming, or they're in some kind of unusual state.
I'm curious, Dean, what would the presumption be if, for example, the Consciousness Project evolved to the point, just for the sake of argument here, That not only could you pinpoint the geographic location of an event, but you could perhaps even predict some of the details of the event.
I'm assuming a refinement that might be 20 years away from where we are right now, but just for the sake of this discussion and making it really interesting, let's say we could define, look at group consciousness and really define exactly what was going to occur.
Who might be involved?
How they were going to do it?
We're talking now about an act of terrorism, let's say.
And we had all of these details.
Would you presume that we would be able to change an event that was going to happen?
That it would be changeable?
Or do you make the assumption about events in the world that they're going to unfold in a certain way and man You can't step between them.
Well, this is the reason why philosophers don't like precognition.
Because it raises the possibility of causal paradoxes.
It sure does.
And so my solution to this problem is either, there's two things, either the future is not determined, it's simply probable.
Yes.
In which case we have the metaphor of a river which carries the future.
And the river has a certain amount of inertia and the currents will go in a certain direction.
And yet there's always eddy currents around the edge.
If the eddy currents change a little bit, it will actually divert the course of the current to the river.
So that future is kind of determined in the sense that there's an enormous inertia going in a certain direction, but it can be changed.
And also, from our viewpoint right now, it does not yet exist.
It's only a potential.
So you would operate under the assumption that you could change what might occur?
Well, that's only one possibility.
The other possibility is that the future, in fact, is determined, but precognition is not all that good.
In which case, we only get a vague sense of what the future is going to be.
In both cases, it will look as though we're dealing with probable futures instead of absolute futures.
Either precognition isn't very good, in which case you might get a really good vision, but it's not really Not as good as you think it is.
Or, the future really is not determined yet.
And you're looking at one, perhaps, of multiple possible worlds.
My own bias here, of course, is I think like many people, I prefer to think that we have free will.
And so, we might get a really good precognition of where we're headed, but we don't have to end up there.
Because the alternative makes us feel like robots.
You know, everything is determined.
You can just go out and do anything, and it won't matter.
So, resolving that question is a very important question.
The reason I'm asking this, and now I guess I'm forced into it in a way, and I won't tell the whole story, I'll try and make it very short, but here I was, I think I told you before, watching TV in my living room, the evening news, in an apartment in Santa Barbara.
We had a rolling glass thing that looked out to where I parked my car, which was right in front of the apartment.
And these waves came rolling over me in the middle of the newscast, you know, watching Dan Rather or whatever.
And somebody's going to hit your car.
Somebody's going to hit your car.
It rolled over me, just like ocean waves.
I couldn't stop.
So I said, this is stupid.
Went over, opened the curtain.
Everything was fine.
Went back, watched the news.
It started all over again, just like that.
Boom.
Ocean waves coming over.
Someone's going to hit your car.
So I went back over to the window.
I looked out the window.
Everything was fine.
But a guy was walking down the sidewalk.
And he got into the car in front of mine, started his engine, and put it in reverse and slammed into my car.
That's when I fell to my knees.
I mean, it just... But then I got my senses back enough to yell at him before he got away.
Hey, I've got your license number.
He said, OK, OK, I'm stopping.
And we took care of business, you know?
But I wonder, Dean, could I have yelled at that guy who was going down the sidewalk If it ever happened again like that, and say, hey buddy, drive carefully!
Or something, I don't know.
Your precognition just wasn't complete.
What you got was, something's going to happen to your car, but not a guy is coming along and is going to back into your car.
That's right.
Because if you had the additional information, maybe you could have intervened.
Maybe.
Since you actually did not have enough information, then there is no causal paradox.
All you knew was that something bad was about to occur, but you didn't have enough detail.
That's right.
That's right.
But I mean, there was no question about it.
It rolled over me and forced me to go over and look.
That's how strong it was.
And so, yes, I wonder if I'd said something.
Yeah, we don't really know what the answer is, but we're working towards figuring it out.
It's an important question.
Wouldn't it be horrible if we refined the ability to begin to see these events and then couldn't stop them?
That would be perplexing, yes, and probably somewhat disturbing.
Very disturbing.
And so back to all the radical Muslims praying for the destruction of the United States, and even though the positives register harder, you've got people out there praying really hard with a very strong belief system, one they're willing and have shown they will die for.
Right.
Well, fortunately, what we don't see so far is that wishes literally come true.
What we see is that focused attention will create order in physical systems.
That's all that we see.
And what that means is, in terms of physiological changes, in terms of perhaps large-scale erratic systems, or not erratic, but large-scale systems that are like on a knife edge, Which can include things like the power grid and other things like that.
Yes.
That it may affect them in some way but not necessarily in a bad way.
Or the weather.
Or the weather.
Yeah.
Now one of those reckless little experiments I played with about three or four times and had eerie hair raising success with was predicting rain.
That is trying to cause rain by mass thought in areas where there was no forecast for rain and it was desperately needed and we did it.
We absolutely did it.
To hear like an hour after you conduct an experiment that cloud vapor began to form Dean and that rain began to fall in an area where it just not a million billion years should have begun to fall that a low-pressure system suddenly developed and boom you've got Rain, that totally freaked me out when we did those experiments, Dean, and I never, at that time, even thought about unintended consequences.
Right.
But the weather would be a system like the ones you're describing, wouldn't it?
Yes.
Yes, and unintended consequences are, can be very, very serious.
That's why, I mean, we occasionally, I will do an experiment that will freak me out, too, and immediately have to I wonder about what are the consequences of this?
And I actually think that one of the reasons why this... I mean, this field has been studied in a scientific way for over a century, and it is not mainstream by any stretch of the imagination.
It's been relegated to the far fringe for a long time.
Yes.
My sense is that the world, that society reacts to what we're talking about, including the experiments which we publish, in the same way that the body's immune system reacts to a foreign antibody.
As soon as the thing comes out, the anomaly, the thing that freaks you out, or a publication, the whole system gears up in such a way as to get rid of it.
It suppresses it.
We're talking about literal suppression in the sense that it's virtually impossible to do this sort of work in academia.
And also in more subtle ways, in ways where the collective mind says, you know what, we don't really want information about precognition out there, so we're going to suppress the ability to get it, even in the laboratory.
And that's in a sense what I think we're seeing in the 9-11 anomaly associated with the card test at the Gottsai site.
Right.
You know, there's a massive back reaction that says, hey, we don't want to be psychic because it's too scary.
And I think that's one of the reasons why the field at large has been pushed into the fringe.
Well, you mentioned yourself, people don't like negative information.
Scary, creepy, bad information.
They don't want it.
But they also don't want... The brain protects itself against that, right?
Right, but they also don't want ideas that challenge our deeply held beliefs.
That too.
And so they go hand in hand.
You have a lot of people with a lot invested in theories about the way that the world is, and also about our own capabilities.
Something comes along saying, well, you know, maybe what you thought isn't all there is.
Maybe humans have some other capacity.
We're not talking about religious beliefs.
We're talking about empirical, demonstrable facts.
And there can be a big reaction against it, which tends to suppress those abilities.
Where does prayer You know, you say forget the religion.
Where does prayer fit into this?
And it really does, doesn't it?
Well, I would recast prayer as a form of intention.
Sure.
So, in fact, one of the directions that we're doing at the Institute of Noetic Sciences is addressing the so what question.
You know, people have psychic experiences.
We're able to show effects in the laboratory sometimes.
So what?
Well, one answer is that a lot of people pray for health, in particular, and typically praying for somebody else's health.
So, to give an example, one of the studies we're doing, we call it the Love Study, and we're looking at the effects of compassionate intention on another person's health, which is like prayer, but we call it compassionate intention.
The people involved are couples, one of whom has cancer and is in treatment for cancer.
The other one is the partner who doesn't have cancer but would like to support them in some way.
So they go through a three-month training program to train them in how to provide compassionate intention.
Because one of the problems with cancer is not only that it's a disease we don't know how to fix, but that the partner of the person with cancer oftentimes feels that they can't do anything and they want to do something but what can they do?
So they feel helpless which is bad for the relationship.
So by training them with a compassionate intention means we give them something to do.
But after the three-month training we go to the lab and we check to see whether the partner's compassionate intention in fact can be detected In the patient's body.
Okay, so are you giving them a sugar pill or not?
No, we're simply looking at whether or not intention in the partner can be detected as a physiological change in the patient at a distance.
Yes, and?
And the answer is yes, it does have a demonstrable change.
How do you measure that, Dean?
Well, in the setup that we're currently using, we have a Very heavily shielded steel room where we put the patient right we're sure that they're isolated from the rest of the world They sit down for 30 minutes and simply relax.
There's a closed-circuit TV camera watching them and in the other room is their partner a partner in front of them has a TV monitor and at random schedules the face of the patient will pop up in front of the partner and That is the signal for the partner to use their intention to do their compassionate intention connection.
Right.
With the patient.
Got it.
And when the image goes away they withdraw their intention.
Yes.
So basically the experiment is manipulating the partner's intention towards and away the patient.
Yes.
And so what we're looking at are physiological changes like changes in instantaneous heart rate in the patient.
They're being intended at and not intended at.
Right.
What we find are not only heart rate, but skin conductance, brain waves, respiration, blood flow.
There's a systemic physiological change that we can measure in the patient when the partner is thinking about them versus not thinking about them.
That's a wow!
That's a definite wow!
Yeah.
With what kind of numbers?
What kind of reliability?
How often?
Well, we've run now, we're on our 15th couple Yes.
And the statistics are pretty strong.
At this point, it's about 1 in 1,000 odds.
Odds of 1,000 to 1.
What we're looking at is by chance.
That's pretty good.
No, that's very good.
All right, Dean, hold tight.
Dean Radin is my guest.
You're going to want to check out his book.
I just know it.
It's called The Conscious Universe.
Amazon.com, of course, and through our website, his website connected to ours.
Dean Radin.
My guest, I'm Art Bell, this is Coast to Coast AM.
I'm here to give a lead, to realize just what I have found.
I have been only half of who I am.
All clear to begin.
My heart is on fire.
Hey ya hey ya ho.
The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll free at 800-825-5033.
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800-893-0903. From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM
with Art Bell.
Well, I think we'll ask a question about that in a moment.
Well, Madine Raiden is here.
I think it referred to a scientist who was harmed mortally.
I've got two radioactive, weapon-grade radioactive elements, two closed together, and that's tickling the tail of that tiger.
But I meant it in this case, Dean.
I mean, do you ever wonder what kind of door you're walking through with this research?
It might be tickling the tail of the tiger at some point, I don't know.
Well, I think every new, every time we try to find out something about the way nature works, We're taking a risk.
Yes.
But, you know, we're also created to be curious.
Yeah, that's for sure.
What drives me, the reason why I continue to do research in this field, is basically curiosity.
I'm just amazed that we have capacities that, of course, the ancients talked about and the mystics keep talking about, but that science in general has ignored.
And of course, most scientists will admit that if any of this stuff is true, then it's extremely important to know.
But you're absolutely right, that when we start understanding consciousness to much greater depth than we do, it will change things dramatically.
And as I said, maybe that's one of the reasons why it has been so difficult to push in this area, because at some level we recognize that this is much more powerful than atomic power.
Are you concerned that other countries, China, I don't know, maybe India and Pakistan, other countries around the world, may be working on this much harder than we are, much harder, and devoting many more resources to it?
Or do you think that's simply not true, that we're on the cutting edge of this?
My guess is that nobody has a much better handle That's good to hear.
In the old days, one of the things I would do was help to debrief defecting, at the time, red Chinese scientists.
And so we would get a sense of what they're up to, and it became very clear that they're not much beyond where we are.
In fact, they're, if anything, behind where we are.
So, I'm not too nervous that somebody is way ahead, but I am nervous that there is research that's going on that, and within the United States at least, it is considered to be beneath contempt, which means that people who should be paying attention to this are probably not.
That means that other countries... Well, I mean, here's an example.
In the United States today, The Institute of Noetic Sciences is one of less than a handful of scientific labs that is devoted to studying these things.
By comparison, in Europe, we have probably about 20 universities in England and Scotland, Germany, France, primarily, also Portugal, where this stuff is being taught in universities.
And there isn't a single university in the United States That is, teaching students these topics.
Well, you're arguing with yourself a little then.
Because you said we're way ahead.
No, I wouldn't say we're way ahead.
I would say we're on par.
But there's a difference between what we know versus what is allowed to be studied.
If you think a few generations down the line, that's where I start getting concerned.
A few generations down the line, the United States will indeed be quite far behind.
Primarily because you have thousands of people graduating from college who only hear the mainstream story, which is, well, there's nothing to worry about because none of it's really true.
Right.
Whereas, by comparison, in Europe and also Japan and China, there's a very different sense about it.
It's not considered nonsense.
It's considered, well, we don't quite know what it is, but okay, it's something that seems valid to talk about at least.
But it's something.
It's something worth being interested in, as opposed to here, in which most mainstream scientists just don't think about it.
Well, look, the Consciousness Project is producing verifiable results.
I mean, at some point, other scientists are going to begin looking at what's going on here.
This has to get their attention at some point, right?
Well, you'd think so, wouldn't you?
Yeah, well, yes, you would.
Yeah, but I'm not so sure.
I mean, we published our article in Foundations of Physics Letters on the 9-11 effect and for the Global Consciousness Project.
As far as we know, we didn't get a single response to that.
That's pathetic.
Well, but that's also reality.
People here have no either.
If you get involved in this stuff, it will ruin your career.
Which unfortunately is true.
It is true.
Yeah, for a mainstream career.
And also, even if somebody does come across this, they might even be sympathetic to the idea of these phenomena, but they don't know that there actually is a pretty good and solid base of research which supports it.
And in addition, anybody who gets involved in this will immediately become a lightning rod for the strong skeptics who really have an ideological push to make it go away.
Well, let me ask you a really hard question.
How far do you think the project might be from productive results that could be used in some real-world way?
You're talking about the Global Consciousness Project?
Or any of its extensions or relatives that you're aware of.
In other words, anything that, for example, a government could use or a large corporation could use in some, from their point of view at least, productive way.
Well, in some respects it can be used today, if anyone really cared to want to use it.
Name an application.
Either for the COTSI side or the Global Consciousness side, it can be used as an early warning detection system.
I mean, you know, the Homeland Defense people are constantly evaluating, should we raise the terror alert level?
That's right.
Well, you obviously would not rely on any one source.
You wouldn't rely on Global Consciousness Project either.
But if you find that your other sources are showing something funny is about to occur and The Global Consciousness Project begins to show something, and the Gottsai site.
Well, then you have multiple sources of independent data saying, well, something's about to happen.
Right.
I mean, they're talking about frequently, when they make the announcements you just spoke about, they'll say, well, we've noticed increased chatter or communication going on in the Al-Qaeda network.
That's right.
Something like that.
That's what they usually say.
So why not add this as another piece of the pie?
Exactly.
Why not?
And the answer is, Unless it was highly classified, in which case you'd never know about it.
Or somebody stepped up to the plate and said, well, here's some money.
Go figure out how to make it work.
So far, no one has done that.
So this is where I put in my pitch for people who are interested in these topics.
Become a member of IONS.
You know, that's where the money comes from to allow me and other colleagues to do this kind of research.
So we don't, you know, one way is to go out for the million dollar grants.
Well, that's not going to happen.
But having people join IONS as standard membership, that's where our bread and butter comes from.
That's what allows us, not only for us to do it, but also to give colleagues grants to independently do this kind of research.
That's, in fact, this is, it was the Institute of Theoretic Sciences that gave the original grant Roger Nelson to allow this project to begin.
That's mainly what we've been doing.
We give little seed grants to people who have an interesting idea and they know they can't get money from anywhere else and we evaluate whether we think it's a good idea.
In many cases we will give a small grant.
Alright, well you know what the results are to date and with a few more years of data under your belt, at some point The government is going to come.
Some agency within the government.
Maybe even the CIA.
I mean, they looked at the remote viewers.
How far away can this be from that?
At some point, as the data mounts up, somebody is going to take a look, and they're going to come a-knockin'.
And then what?
I wonder how you... I mean, you must have considered it.
How you would react if the interest you got came from that sector.
There has been interest.
Oh.
The problem is, and this is a difficult problem, that in order for, I mean, for us to do it as part of a government program, then it would disappear.
Oh, sure it would.
And I'm not sure I want it to disappear.
No more interviews here.
Yeah.
I mean, it just, it sort of goes away and, you know, it didn't pan out or some sort of cover story is made and it goes away.
I'm not sure.
That I would want to work under those conditions.
In fact, it might be better for someone to just simply replicate the whole thing and not even tell us about it.
In fact, maybe they are doing that.
This stuff is not difficult to do.
It would be fairly easy for someone to replicate this.
Oh, you're making a good point.
So there could be a parallel effort.
There may well be.
I have no idea, but I don't see why not.
It's easy to do.
I've worked in classified programs and I see that there is a value for doing that.
Sometimes you just have to make it not publicly known.
Well, if they were doing that, there would be, at the very least, very close surveillance of what you're doing.
Have you had any signs that you may have been surveilled?
Are you saying that I have become paranoid?
No, no, no.
Paranoia would be perhaps a false fear of that.
I'm asking you in the real world whether you have any idea or have you wondered.
Do people pay attention to this work?
Yes.
Well, I guess I meant more like, do you think you might have been surveilled, paying attention, surveilling?
I mean, you know, somebody's watching you very closely.
Well, I'm not sure I'm paranoid enough to have worried about it.
Let's put it this way.
I live a clean life, and so if someone were doing that, that's fine.
I don't care.
And if someone can learn something, that's great.
I have given talks to people who would be in a position to be interested in this, and there is interest.
It's just politically such a hot potato.
I mean, you can imagine within the intelligence community now, if someone got wind of the intelligence community using something like this, it would be hell to pay.
And so, it's simply not going to happen publicly.
Not publicly, no.
It could happen some other way.
So, I hadn't considered until you mentioned the concept of a parallel effort, but sure, why not?
It would be the easier way to go.
Much easier.
The remote viewers almost all claim that the government had its $20 million dabble with remote viewing, and it's all done and finished.
And I always thought, you know, if remote viewing really works reliably, and there are so many that claim that it does, I've interviewed so many, Then they wouldn't be done with it.
How could they be?
So, we all heard the Nightline Show where they finally admitted, yes, we did do it.
20 million bucks of taxpayer money was spent on remote viewing, secretly, for years.
And so, I for one think that if it did work, it's still now going on, and probably a parallel effort to yours as well.
I wonder where all this might happen.
Well, you're making what was taught to me over and over again, and it's called the rational man mistake.
You're making the hypothesis that people are rational, and especially that in politics, people are rational.
And it just doesn't work that way.
And I remember when I first started working at SRI, and I had the briefings, the classified briefings of what we actually knew at that time.
I kept saying the same thing.
Holy smoke, if this stuff is as real as it looks, then how come it isn't widely known?
This is amazing from a scientific perspective and also for its usefulness.
I was advised to not make the rational man mistake.
You know, there is a rational argument.
Of course it should be used, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it wasn't.
Well, I mean, there is.
And if there wasn't before, there certainly is now.
I mean, the government is being raked over the coals for intelligence failures with respect to 9-11.
So I would think that somebody somewhere is getting very desperate with regard to intelligence, and this would be somewhere on the list.
Well, one of the things is that it is not anywhere near as reliable.
As some people would happily believe.
We're dealing with subtle human abilities here, even among talented people.
And sometimes it is absolutely spectacular with what you can get.
But it's a little bit like a really good spy satellite with a kind of a smudgy lens every so often.
People occasionally will get hits that are veridical, a perfect description of something, but then the next day they won't.
And so far we still do not know.
That's right, but you did talk about briefly or at least you touched on drugs and I know it's a sort of verboden subject but I really am curious how much of an increase in PSI ability has been demonstrated under the influence of any sort of psychedelic, any sort of drug that has been tested?
What we don't know is, on repeated testing, we know that it produces an increase in performance, but we don't know if you can keep it up.
And it does so how reliably?
I mean, shockingly reliably?
No, not shockingly, but noticeably.
Noticeably?
Yeah.
In other words, I don't think it's as simple as give the person a special drug and suddenly they become miraculous.
It doesn't seem to work that way.
And partially, it doesn't seem to work that way because we're dealing with something like, with not simply my mind jumping out into the world and describing things, but we're jumping out into something which is not just an objective world.
You know, it's that intermediary world.
It's an intersubjective world that you are looking into.
And in fact, the case can be made that that is really the true nature of the world is intersubjective.
It's not just merely objective or subjective.
It's some blurring between the two.
And that means that when I go out and remote view something, what other people are thinking and doing and believing and so on is mixing into what I see.
So, I mean, it's quite different than simply taking a snapshot.
Unless it's true that intent can cut through that noise, can it?
Well, here's where amazing talent makes a difference.
Some people have the talent to sort of push aside All of that noise from other people momentarily and get a really good image.
But even the best, they can't do it all the time.
And what's worse is they don't know why it doesn't work all the time.
We're beginning to get hints like the state of the geomagnetic field might make a difference.
Oh, really?
Oh, that's pretty interesting.
The state of the geomagnetic field.
Yeah, well, that's been known now for at least 30 years.
It was first noticed many years ago when reviews of spontaneous cases were looked at in terms of the dates.
And what was noticed was that spontaneous psychic events tended to occur on days that were quiet from a geomagnetic point of view.
And it has been confirmed now in the laboratory that days that are quiet geomagnetically have better performance in the lab and days that are stormy, geomagnetically.
That tells us something about probably the state of the nervous system.
If you take somebody and you sort of shake them while they're trying to do remote viewing,
you don't do too well.
And when the geomagnetic field is having a stormy day, it tends to shake up the nervous system a little bit.
Well, when we're having a geomagnetic storm, some of the geomagnetic storm is actually making it to us,
you know, through.
Sure.
so i'll is that uh... direct effect do you suppose Sure it is.
Yeah.
The stormy geomagnetic day, your body absolutely is being pushed around by that storm.
Then, maybe you could bombard somebody with the same kind of radiation they'd experience during a giant geomagnetic storm.
Well, no.
You want to do the opposite.
You want to shield them.
Alright, hold it right there.
You want to shield them.
In other words, you want to remove the noise that's represented by what's hitting you.
So inside a lead room you go.
You're not alone.
You turn the dark to day.
But you have to be sleeping.
Midnight, my body's weak.
I'm on the run, no time to sleep.
I've got to ride, ride like the wind.
To be free again.
And I've got such a long way to go.
To make it to the border of Mexico.
So I ride like the wind.
Ride like the wind.
To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
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The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll free at 800-825-5033.
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pressing option 5 and dialing toll free 800-893-0903.
From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
I almost let the show go before saying that.
I will not be here next weekend, and the honest and real reason that I'm not going to be here, I'm going to tell you about right now.
Okay?
The broadcasting industry has eggs out there, too.
They're called surveys.
And they go on almost all year long.
There's, I don't know, four or five surveys a year or something.
You know, it's a very important thing, radio surveys, right?
You're number one, you're number two, you're non-existent, whatever.
So, the radio survey only has a very brief period of time when they're not taking a survey.
One of those periods of time is coming up in the next week or so.
And so, during that period of time, they like you to take vacation.
So, they have indeed suggested to me, since this is one of those rare times, then go on vacation!
So, I said, alright.
So, next weekend I will not be here.
Where I will be, I don't No, but I may get in the RV with Ramona and take off to some... Who knows?
Anyway, that's the reason.
I have not been abducted, nor has anything untoward happened to me, because I'm not here next weekend.
It has simply been suggested to me that during this magic week, I take a couple of days off.
So there, you know, a little inside secret as it were.
Now, you know, it's not a random event that so many people in the broadcasting industry go on vacation at roughly the same time.
There's nothing at all random about it.
Dean, welcome back.
You said better a lead room, and that started me thinking, well, all right, a lead room, for example.
You didn't say lead room.
I said that.
But that would protect somebody against, for example, The effects of a geomagnetic storm, which would remove the noise factor, but the implication would be that it would remove that person's ability to do other psi things, unless they were immediately with inside that particular realm, because if the noise is affecting that person, then you would think that the information that they would receive would be on the same frequency, if I can use that word, as the noise that's affecting it.
No.
Well, first of all, the room would not be properly LED.
Well, okay.
It would be what's called mu-metal shielded.
Okay.
Be magnetically shielded.
It's a little bit more difficult than simply that as well, because the frequencies that we're talking about are very, very slow.
We're talking about electromagnetic and magnetic frequencies down at 10 Hertz and below.
Very slow frequencies.
Very, yes.
And so, you may need an active shielding method.
In fact, we built one of these.
This is, as a radio guy, you know what Helmholtz coils are like.
Yes.
So, if you imagine you take a Helmholtz coil with a magnetometer in the center of it.
The magnetometer is picking up the Earth's magnetic field.
Right.
And you use the Helmholtz coil to create an anti-field.
Yes.
So you can create inside an electromagnetically shielded room a place that is actively canceling the magnetic field.
And when you do that, what do you notice?
What you do, what you create, of course, is a place that is like a bottle which has no magnetic field in it at all.
Right.
Some people notice it.
They feel that it is exceptionally quiet.
It feels quiet.
Even though, you know, normally we don't think of ourselves as having a magnetic sense, but in fact we do.
Some people are very sensitive to it.
The effect of it is basically to simply quiet the nervous system.
This is one of the reasons why I think that meditation is... I mean, if you had to choose one method to help improve psychic awareness, it would be meditation.
Well, this is not such a surprise, really.
Is it because there are a number of mammals that use Well, will birds, for example, use the Earth's magnetic field for migration?
Right.
And so forth, right?
Twenty years ago, it would have been considered laughable.
But not today.
I mean, we do know that, as a matter of fact.
Today, we now know that virtually all animals that have been looked at so far, I believe, including humans, do have a magnetic sense.
And so, it doesn't seem to be, I mean, the relationship with psi ability in this case doesn't seem to be magical.
It seems to be simply one more thing you can do in order to quiet down the nervous system so that you're able to pay more attention to what's going on inside your head.
Wow!
So, we now have at least a partial technological aid to psi ability.
Anything that quiets down the system, yes.
And in fact, one of the things I'm working on is A training procedure that would help people not only to turn on psychic ability, but also to turn it off.
Because believe it or not, the single thing that people call for help on is not to learn how to make psychic stuff happen, but to make it go away.
Because people get disturbed with feeling other people's feelings and occasionally getting glimpses of thoughts and so on.
It's very disruptive.
I would think so, yes.
And this is exactly what led me to expect that evolution has pushed us away from these skills, not towards them.
So any responsible person who is training for psychic ability had also better learn and train to make it stop.
Because otherwise you're almost guaranteed to turn people into psychotics.
That's another question I want to ask.
Has there been any work or study done With people who are mentally disturbed?
Very, very few.
Primarily because it's very difficult, and probably rightly so, from an ethical standpoint, to work with people who are mentally disturbed.
There have been a few studies with people who have been brain damaged.
Do you think that that kind of research would be worth a shot?
There's always a difficult ethical problem when somebody cannot give full informed consent.
Right.
Then, really, you shouldn't work with them.
Right.
No, I've got that.
But, I mean, purely from a scientific point of view, would there be value in such a study, do you think?
Probably.
I mean, a case can be made that people who are schizophrenic In some cases, when they talk about hearing voices, that they are saying exactly what's going on.
Yes.
And it's because they have too much psychic ability and they can't turn it off.
Yes.
So, in which case the drugs that are taken to suppress the symptoms may well be suppressing psychic awareness and would give us an important clue as to what's going on.
Has there been, well in that case, it might be worthy to study such, I mean if you took a psychically talented person and gave them some of those drugs, I wonder if it would quiet that ability?
My guess is it probably would.
But remember that most of the drugs that are given are very strong sedatives.
Yes, but leveling drugs like lithium for example... We know even from much simpler tests involving caffeine and alcohol, caffeine helps and alcohol does not.
You know, caffeine will improve performance a little bit, and alcohol will suppress it.
No question.
So, for a stronger drug, I expect that we'd find pretty much the same thing, only just that much stronger.
So, yes, from a purely scientific point of view, it would be great to do these studies, but actually getting permission to do it is a whole other matter.
Yes, indeed so.
I understand.
It just seems like it seemed a logical question to ask, and I can understand why it's not yet been pursued.
Do you run into a lot of that?
Of questions that are, like, on the grayscale ethically?
Yes.
Every time we do an experiment, we always have to go through an ethics board.
So sometimes there is something like on a slippery slope, and it has long discussions, but most of the time Studies that would really raise eyebrows are never even
done. Well, all right. You've got the conscious universe You're working on a new book. What's the new book a new
book? The working title is entangled minds and
It has to do with human experience of non locality
Right. Here we go. So the story is that If we look at what's happening now and for a quantum
computing the science
Magazine and nature are like almost every week publishing something about
New systems that can be entangled That's right.
And just the other day, finally, atoms have been entangled.
Before that it was mainly photons, but now atoms can be entangled.
Larger and larger systems for a longer period of time and so on.
They're learning how to create large entangled systems.
The next step is going to be entanglement of biological systems.
We'll probably start first with single cells, or below that, and eventually get to tissue, and eventually get to organs, and then somebody's going to ask the rhetorical question, well, what happens if you entangle brains?
What would that feel like, to entangle somebody's brain with another brain?
How do you envision this process could occur?
Well, the first way to do it will probably be something along the lines of... The idea would be that entanglement... I mean, our current version of entanglement is in an extremely fragile state.
My guess is that because of research and finding ways of creating more robust forms of entanglement, of which there are many papers coming out as well, that entanglement, as currently seen, may be eventually seen as a special It was like a lot of times, it takes enormous effort to make the first laser, but after we begin to understand it, it becomes generalized, and now you can make laser on a chip easily.
And we're well down, well, not well down the road, but we're certainly part of the way down the road.
We're going down the road of learning how to entangle larger and larger systems.
My guess, and this is pure speculation, is that DNA might be able to be entangled with similar DNA.
So the first place people are going to look, I mean, someone's going to come up with the amazing idea that maybe we can test identical twins, who since they came out of the same egg in the first place, maybe they're already entangled.
Maybe.
So let's separate two people and stimulate one, look at their brain, and see whether something happens in the other person's brain.
Oh, so twins would be ideal.
Right.
Okay.
And then someone's going to look in the literature, and they're going to find that in 1965, in science, a paper came out in which Pairs of identical twins were, in fact, tested to see if their brains were entangled.
And the way they would do it is they'd have the two twins separated.
They'd have one of the twins close their eyes, which would create increased alpha rhythm in that person's brain.
Right.
And they'd look at the twin, and they'd see whether that twin also had increased alpha rhythm.
And sure enough, and to a statistical degree, a couple of the twins did show that effect.
Which is exactly what now would be predicted.
They're entangled somehow.
You continue to look into the literature, what you find is a number of studies have been done since 1965, which confirm that not only identical twins, but people who come in as bonded pairs.
Husbands and wives and lovers and that sort of thing.
Yes.
When one person gets typically a photic stimulus, a light flash in their face, Their brain has a very characteristic evoked potential, and their partner, isolated at a distance, their brain also has an effect.
Well, I know you're aware, without my even telling you, of all the anecdotal evidence, a ton of it, about identical twins and communication that occurs over... it doesn't matter how much distance, about major events, that sort of thing.
I mean, there's a ton of anecdotal evidence about that.
Yes, and it's dismissed as coincidence.
You see, I think what's going to happen is the reason why these studies with EEG correlations and telepathy in general, actually, the reason it will suddenly be seen as okay is because it's being pulled in by a theory.
And not only, not just a theory, but like THE theory, the theory that is really good.
And so for the first time in history, psychic events will be seen not simply as weird anomalies, but as something that makes sense According to theories that we're using already for other reasons.
I think that's when the tide will turn.
So, in my book, I'm going to flesh out this two-paragraph description I just gave to bring in what I think is actually an enormous amount of evidence suggesting that that, in fact, is going to happen.
How can you imagine the results of a successful entanglement of brains?
Well, you would ask a question of what would it feel like from the inside if my brain was entangled with yours?
Yes.
My guess is that what it would feel like is that at times I would lose my sense of me and I would be confused as to whether I'm you and you're me.
It becomes a transpersonal connection between us.
It would be probably stronger than what people think of as telepathic impressions.
It wouldn't be as fleeting That's what we typically think of, but it might be very close to what people talk about when they talk about crisis telepathy.
When somebody is under crisis, the amount of information that transfers is incredible.
It's like veridical information.
You feel what the other person's feeling and you see what they're seeing in the whole thing.
So I think at some point we might figure out ways of entangling people Actually, it's not so much that we entangle them.
It's that people are already entangled.
We are already entangled with everything.
Yes, but if you could produce, as is being done now at, I guess, quantum level, if you could really produce entangled brains.
Boy, talk about tickling the tail.
Aye yai yai.
That's incredible to think about.
Yeah.
I think it is not only going to happen, I think it's inevitable.
And there will be a whole new set of questions that arise, but no different than... I mean, there are questions now about, should we use stem cells?
Oh, yes.
Now, should there be cloning and so on?
These questions will always arise whenever something new comes along, and I think it will happen at this stage as well.
Oh, I think so, too.
How close to this book are you?
It's going to be done in December.
In December?
Yeah.
All right.
Finally, I do want to ask you about intuition, just simple intuition, gut feelings.
I've noticed that in this world of ours, there are very successful people, and then there are politicians who are elected there, very successful, chairman of the board of this or that, and these people all seem to have very strong intuition, and if you talk to them privately, they admit they follow it.
Yep.
It's true.
I've spoken to people in Hollywood, Yes.
They all say exactly the same thing.
They will admit privately, if they know that you're interested, that they get into a certain zone and for sometimes weeks on end, they're in the zone and they know what to do.
Their success demonstrates that it's not simply an illusion because they're successful repeatedly and they're able to follow their intuition.
So, I mean, another way of casting what they're doing is that they're somehow psychically aware.
They're able to follow continually psychic information.
What I find interesting about this, though, is that it is oftentimes associated with, literally, with the gut, with feelings around the solar plexus.
Yeah.
And so we've done an experiment On seeing whether or not the gut is really associated in some way with these kinds of things.
Well, people joke about that gut feeling.
You're saying there might be something to it?
We used something called an electro-gastrogram, which is a way of measuring the electrophysiology of the gut itself, with electrodes over the stomach.
Oh yes?
See if the stomach jumps around, basically, when a distant partner is experiencing emotions.
And to make a long story short, the answer is yes.
It's a highly significant effect that if your partner is at a distance and is experiencing emotions that we create in the lab, that your stomach is going to start churning.
We can measure that.
The scientifically verified gut feeling.
Gut feeling.
And with that, boy, what a pleasure to have you on, Dean.
And since you've got a new book coming out, I presume that somewhere down the line we can get you on again talking about that book, I just bet.
Well, I'd love to come back.
It's been a pleasure, my friend.
Thank you.
Good.
And good night.
Good night.
He's really something, every time.
He's really something.
Well, that's the cutting edge of what's being done out there right now, and that's also the end of it for me.
See you in a couple of weeks.
It's been great.
I'm Mart Bell, and from the high desert, as usual, here's Crystal.
Good night!
Midnight in the desert Shooting stars across the sky This magical journey Will take us on a ride Filled with a longing Searching for the truth Will we make it till tomorrow?
Will the sun shine on you?
Midnight in the desert And we're listening
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