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July 3, 2004 - Art Bell

02:52:08

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - John Hogue - Nostradamus and Our Future

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54:43

john hogue

01:20:15

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layne staley [aic]

00:13

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess not all the way through, huh?
		Since Monday, I think it's an official holiday, right?
		Anyway, it's my pleasure to be here.
		We're going to do a lot, and this program tonight is going to be with one of the world's experts on Nostradamus, or perhaps the world's expert on Nostradamus, John Hoag.
		That's what we're going to be doing next hour.
		And one of the reasons he's coming back on is because way back on November, actually November 12th, 2000, right here on this program, right here, he predicted that if President Bush was president,
		he would get America stuck on the ground in a major war in the Middle East, most likely with Iraq, his words, at the end of 2002, and predicted it would be America's second Vietnam.
		Well, whether you agree or disagree with the Vietnam assessment, that's a wail of a talented, accurate prediction, isn't it?
		And so, you know, I thought, I started thinking about predictions, and, you know, Nostradamus, of course, but I absolutely understand that there are many of you out there that are talented, just as Nostradamus, perhaps not the Nostradamus, but many common people not recognized for this are so talented.
		I get email predictions all the time.
		So I think tonight, if you wish, what the heck?
		And certainly tomorrow night when we have open lines, that I would do a call to the talented.
		Now, I know we do predictions at the new year, between Christmas and the New Year.
		But I thought I would go ahead and take some predictions, but very special predictions.
		First of all, only from those of you, you know, I mean, how do you judge this?
		But being fair, if you feel genuinely talented or able in this way, would I want you to even try to make it?
		I don't want calling and guessing.
		You know, that's baloney.
		Anybody can guess.
		But I do want things you think, and here's the catch, things you think are about to come true.
		Not things that 50 or 100 or 1,000 years from now might happen.
		Well, I shouldn't care.
		I shouldn't say I don't care about those things because I do, but I'm not going to be here, and neither are you.
		So I want to know about stuff that's about to happen.
		When somebody can make a prediction like John Hoag through Nostradamus, then that's impressive.
		You know, we'll talk about that tonight.
		But in the meantime, if you really are a talented person and you have a prediction for something that's about to come true, and therefore, of course, we can track it and go, oh, my God, look, back on such and such a show, it was said, the following was said, and it just happened.
		So between now and tomorrow, what I would suggest you do, if you think you are such a talented person, or tonight, if you want to, and you have a strong feeling, a strong, very strong feeling about something that is about to happen, then I want to hear from you.
		Now, I'm telling you right now, I exclude predictions of any political assassination whatsoever, at least with respect to United States politicians.
		How about that?
		The rest of the world, I'll take them.
		But U.S. politicians, in no way, because you see, I get visited when I get that kind of stuff.
		Some little old lady somewhere in the middle of the country calls the Secret Service and says, oh, well, they said President was going to get killed.
		No, and then they knock on my door, so I don't want to go through that.
		So no U.S. political assassination predictions.
		Other than that, though, the only requirement is that whatever you predict must be about to come true.
		I mean, very close, a very close timeline.
		That's all I'm interested in.
		Anyway, all of that said, we'll do a little bit of news in the world and then take open lines for the balance of this hour.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From Baghdad, here we go.
		An Iraqi militant group claimed on a website Saturday that it has beheaded a captive U.S. Marine in what would be, if true, the fourth decapitation of a foreign hostage in the region since May.
		The group called the Ansar el-Sunna Army posted a written statement on an Islamic website claiming that it had killed Lebanese-born Corporal Wasif Alai Hasun, saying that he had been lured into a trap involving a love affair with an Arab woman.
unidentified		Huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And here's some more for you from Baghdad.
		It's unavoidable.
		I mean, what's going on is totally, completely, absolutely unavoidable.
		I mean, in terms of reading and discussing this news with you, serious stuff.
		Really is.
		Iraq's prime minister, less than a week after taking power, may offer, listen to this now carefully.
		The new prime minister of Iraq may offer amnesty to insurgents and may extend it to those who, even those who killed American troops in an apparent bid to lure Saddam Hussein loyalists from their campaign of violence.
		A spokesperson for here he is, Ayed Alawi, went as so far as to suggest that attacks on U.S. troops over the last year were legitimate acts of resistance, a sign of the new government's desire to distance itself from the 14-month U.S.-led occupation of Iraq.
		And I'll tell you, that's absolutely incredible.
		Incredible.
		And I'm wondering, you know, at first, listen, it causes my blood to boil.
		And my guess, it causes yours to boil too.
		But then the second question for you and for me would be, do you think that the new Prime Minister in Iraq said this incredible thing with the concurrence of the United States government behind the scenes somewhere?
		In other words, do you suppose he said, okay, well, I'm taking office as Prime Minister America, but listen here.
		I have got to show myself to be independent, not a puppet of the U.S. government.
		And I'm going to have to make a statement you might not like.
		And I wonder if they arranged all of that, so to speak, behind the scenes.
		Otherwise, if that's the case, then I suppose I understand.
		But otherwise, it'll really make your blood boil to listen to that kind of crap.
unidentified		Whew.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Elijah Brown's co-workers always had a hard time making any sense of him.
		He paced.
		He talked to himself.
		He got bothered over teasing.
		It wouldn't phase anybody else.
		Questions about the meat packing plant worker grew exponentially Saturday.
		That is after he took two handguns and shot seven co-workers, killing five of them before killing himself.
		That's one of those that is a head shaker.
		But he did go to a whole bunch of people in the meat packing plant, and those he had no beef with, he said, I'm going to just don't worry about it.
		I'm going to let you go.
		I've got no beef with you.
		And then he mowed down in cold blood the people he did have a beef with and then killed himself.
		I don't know.
unidentified		It's a head shaker.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess it depends on what you believe.
		But if you're at all religious, I would think the last act you do would be poorly thought of if it were killing five people.
		And then, of course, you dispatched yourself to whatever fate awaits for murdering five people, if you believe that.
		Scientists on Saturday released what they called the best photographs yet of the frozen surface of Saturn's enormous moon Titan, but said, guess what?
		We're puzzled.
		The Cassini spacecraft had not glimpsed any evidence of any liquid.
		They expected to find it.
		No liquid.
		However, the latest images of Titan reveal, get this, a single set of clouds about the size of Arizona.
		That's it.
		Oh, and some dark and light shapes across the moon that the imaging team continued to analyze.
		So it's got one big cloud about the size of Arizona on that moon, and that's it, just one giant cloud about the size of Arizona.
		Before it did that, the Cassini spacecraft cruised through the coolest place yet.
		I mean, everybody was waiting for these photographs.
		And, of course, it went through Saturn's rings, right through the rings, and took some close-up photographs.
		And what we found is incredible.
		The main rings are extremely thin.
		Listen to this.
		They stretch 70,000 kilometers from their inner to outer edge, but they're only about 100 meters thick.
		That's a very, it's just extremely thin.
		100 meters thick.
		They're made of loose ice particles in all sorts of sizes.
		That's what they are.
		Ice.
		Now, this is fascinating.
		In other words, how did that happen?
		Was there some sort of moon that got blown up that was made mainly of ice and then got captured?
		But they can't account for these pieces of ice.
		They're sharp.
		That's what they're telling us.
		They're sharp.
		And they should be rounded from bouncing off each other, you know, blurring the edges of the rings.
		But the rings and, in fact, the ice even at close-up is sharp.
		That's really strange, isn't it?
		Perhaps a pulverized asteroid.
		Perhaps something that came and was about to impact with Saturn but was exploded before it got all the way down.
		I don't know.
		They don't know.
		But it is absolutely fascinating, isn't it?
		All right, one more item, and that is the weather.
		I was on the air, I think this, yeah, it was last night.
		It was last night, talking to a friend in a place called Wasilla, Alaska.
		Now, Wasilla is kind of a suburb of Anchorage.
		People up there are going to laugh and say, ah, no, it isn't.
		When I lived in Anchorage, we always called Wasilla kind of a suburb, but it was with humor.
		At any rate, the weather in Alaska is, I mean, it's radically changing right before our eyes.
		And I was talking to a ham friend up there, and he said, oh, my God, I've got to shut down.
		And I said, what do you mean?
		He said, well, the lightning's all around me.
		I said, what do you mean lightning?
		That's not something, believe me, you normally get in Wasilla at all.
		But he had to shut down because of lightning.
		And I thought of that when I read this story from a TV station up there.
		From wildfires to floods to lightning strikes, it seems the weather this summer has been a hodgepodge of unusual events.
unidentified		Is it just circumstance?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or is it a trend of things to come?
		Clouds were hanging over Anchorage on Tuesday, this last Tuesday, after a long stretch of sunny skies, and get this temperatures in the 80s and the 90s.
		The 80s and the 90s.
		In Alaska, mind you.
		Scientists disagree over exactly why Alaska is warming up, and they're working to find the answers.
		It has indeed been a hot summer.
		So far right now, the only air conditioner, for example, you can find at a Home Depot store in Anchorage, the only one they've got, is on the display shelf.
		The manager said, we're actually out at this moment.
		This kind of heat is not at all typical for Anchorage, nor, by the way, it's lightning.
		But Monday night, East Anchorage resident Bob Merrill saw it strike about 100 feet away from him as he was rototilling his garden.
		He said, quote, I felt it all over my body.
		It just kind of tingled all over.
		Weather experts are intrigued as they watch dry forests go up in flames and fast-melting glaciers flood rivers.
		The trends are saying, yes, we're going to continue to warm, said Dr. Gary Huford, a regional scientist with the Alaska Weather Service, and yes, as we continue to warm, we're going to start seeing strange events.
		And speaking of strange events, it is now, of course, July as we prepare to celebrate Independence Day.
		It's July now, right?
		And to this point here in the desert, and you've got to bear in mind that I'm, what, 20, 25 miles from Death Valley.
		That's where I'm broadcasting from, not that far from Death Valley.
		And we normally get temperatures here that range way up there in the 110s by this time of year, normally.
		And we haven't been anywhere near that.
		Actually, we've been in the mid-90s for quite a while now.
		So things are kind of upside down, to say the least.
		Let us begin.
		First time caller line, you are on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello?
		Hello?
		Can you hear me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can hear you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		It's sort of confusing to know when you're on the air or not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Hey, have you picked up, I'm going to do the prediction thing, but I was wondering, have you picked up this July's issue of National Geographic?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's see.
		Have I?
		No, I have not, sir.
unidentified		It has a great story about the weather of the sun, how it's going crazy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
unidentified		Oh, it's great.
unidentified		There's even center poles of the sun.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
unidentified		You got to pick it up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't think there's any question about the fact that our sun affects our weather.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Yeah, I actually think that when we have these ice ages, I believe the sun actually, for some reason, it flares out, and what happens is the Earth freezes, and it affects the poles and stuff like that, and it tilts.
		I believe the sun, as it flares out, it could flare, you know, it could flare out where there isn't any infrared or any light emitting from it for, you know, a short time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know about that, but about sun affecting our climate, surely it does.
		Of course it does.
		It's one of the main heat sources.
unidentified		Exactly.
		Yeah, you're talking about predictions and stuff.
		And when I was younger, I used to really make my teachers nervous.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nervous?
		Oh, yeah?
		That would be a pleasant habit to have in school if you were able to do that.
		You made them nervous by what?
		Making accurate predictions?
unidentified		No, I'd actually, when we're in class, sitting in class, I'd always bring up everything he's going to do before they do it.
		And they really got really nervous with me for, well, I stopped doing that.
		I cut that out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But nevertheless, you are talented in the area.
unidentified		Unfortunately, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what I'm hunting for is things that are about to come true.
unidentified		Well, some okay.
		Recently, okay, what's going to happen nearby, we have a problem in Iraq with Saddam, as you know.
		The people, as most people would think, they would be against Saddam, but there's going to be a change at tables where Saddam is actually being supported by the people of Iraq again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've got to be kidding.
		Now, I just can't imagine how that would happen.
		I mean, as bad as they may regard our butts over there right now, Saddam really tortured and killed a whole lot of people.
		How would that come to pass?
unidentified		Well, majority of the people, the economy of that country was incredible.
		People were doing very well there, and The majority of the people were in support of Saddam.
		And Saddam was a really, really cruel leader.
		I mean, anybody who were to threaten his personal administration, he would kill them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, though, it's such a mess over there right now that I'm hearing it said that whoever takes over, perhaps this new prime minister, whatever, they're going to have to be so tough on security and on the people that it's going to seem just like Saddam was still there.
unidentified		Exactly.
		The country's really, it's funny.
		Most people say that that country deserves Saddam because the people there are pretty wild.
		And without a strict leader, they're really, it's this chaos.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, again, to be absolutely clear, you're predicting that Saddam will be, again, supported by, what would you say, the majority of the Iraqi people?
unidentified		The majority of the Iraqi people, correct.
unidentified		In this country, he'll be hushed up a lot, but the BBC will actually release information without the support of Saddam.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my goodness.
		All right.
		Thank you very much, and have a good day.
		Take care, and don't scare any of the people you work with or anything.
		Well, you know, I'd have said never, but you just, well, you're better off never saying never.
		So maybe it could be.
		Maybe the Iraqi people are so fed up now with what's going on in their country.
		The economy has taken such a plunge and a hit with all the terrorism that they'd want Saddam back.
		What do you think?
		Predictions of things about to happen from the high desert.
unidentified		I'm Art Bell.
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free, 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We are going to take predictions, mainly tomorrow night, I think, along with a lot of other things from the really talented.
		Now, that's my appeal.
		Not just somebody out there taking a wag.
		You know, that's wild form of guess, but somebody really talented to do this sort of thing.
		With regard to something that's about to happen, now, again, you know, again, anybody can do them for things that are going to happen way down the line.
		I want something.
		I want something that's about to happen to us.
unidentified		You got to like this bridge.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll be right back.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's go.
		East of the Rockies, you are on the air.
		Curio.
		Hi, Art.
		Hi, there.
unidentified		Barry from Pennsylvania.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Barry.
unidentified		Hey, I want to speak to you about the Iraq situation.
		And I've been seeing in the news where we've been dropping bombs here in Fallujah, taking out houses one by one.
		And personally, I think that's about the best thing that we could do in there.
		I want to know your opinion what you think we could do to either get out of there or stop this beheading and put us in a better direction over there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It beats the hell out of me.
		And I've really thought about it, too.
		I was very much against this before we did it.
		And I think, speaking of talent, maybe I had a little.
		I kind of foresaw this and said so way before the war.
		But now that we're there, we've got to figure out a way to win.
		And I'll tell you something, sir.
		Our country can't afford another Vietnam.
		You know what Vietnam did to us?
		It demoralized our military for a generation.
		It demoralized Americans for a generation.
		It really screwed us up.
		And so we've got to figure a way to get out of there with our heads held high.
		And I don't know what that is.
		No, I don't know.
unidentified		I just feel that the bombing that's going on, it's starting to wake these people up a little bit.
unidentified		Well, I don't understand why we didn't go in there from the beginning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but looks so.
		Look, Look, the Israelis do that, don't they?
		They blow up Palestinians' homes and stuff like that.
		And what does it get them?
unidentified		But you have to admit, with the Palestinian situation, it has slowed down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, if you're asking me if blowing up houses over there is going to do it, I'd say probably not.
		I mean, I understand perhaps why they're doing it.
		I just don't think it's going to do it.
unidentified		And you think that...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think we'd better find something that will do it, or we're going to have another Vietnam.
unidentified		I can't say the gentleman's name, but it's Al Zawahi.
		They're saying that he's the main culprit behind everything.
		It's just too much like Osama bin Laden was behind everything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we always got to have somebody, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And if it wasn't him, it would be somebody else.
unidentified		It was an honor to speak to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was an honor to have you call.
		Thank you very much, and take care.
		No, I don't have the answers, and I've really thought quite hard about it because I think we've got to figure some way to essentially win.
		You can use the word win, I guess, if you want to.
		And I want to.
		We've got to go out of there with our heads held high about what we did.
		It's not looking too good right now.
		And do I see the way to do that right now?
		I really don't.
		I guess what we're doing, or maybe not.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey.
unidentified		Yeah, I do have a prediction for you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, something about to happen.
unidentified		Yes, indeed.
		Okay.
		About last November, I got a very strong feeling about this, so I started telling my friends and family.
		And I still stick by it.
		And the prediction is 28th of August, or thereabouts, I would say, last week of August, 1st of September, first week of September.
		But I'm pretty well got a feeling about the 28th.
		We'll be yanking Osama out of some cave in Afghanistan.
		Our spec op guys will be doing it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Osama gets caught, huh?
unidentified		Yanked out of a cave.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yanked out of a cave.
		Yeah.
		He's probably in a cave somewhere, all right.
unidentified		Yeah, and I'm really get a feeling about the 28th.
		I stand by that.
		But as I say, you know, I give the two-week timeframe last week of August.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe you're not prepared to answer this, but I might as well ask, if we get Osama, do you think or have any view on how that would affect terror?
unidentified		Honestly, right off the hip, I don't think it'll do a damn thing.
		Oh.
		In fact, if anything, it's only going to fuel the fires of hatred that already we're suffering from.
		And that doesn't mean that I don't think that capturing him is the right thing to do.
		I just think that what we're in is a situation that we're never going to see the end of, unfortunately.
		I believe that we're looking at an Orwellian perpetual conflict.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, John Hoag, who's about to come on here at the top of the hour, says that Nostradamus predicts a certain number of years of terrorist wars that we're in right now.
		And he will tell us how many years of war we have yet to go.
		How long do you think this war, this terrorism thing is going to go on?
unidentified		Gosh, realistically, that's almost like predicting sort of the Armageddon situation.
unidentified		But I have to say, right now, as we're looking at it, we're at least in a two-decade period of a Vietnam-type situation that's going to go from the Middle East to Southeast Asia to probably right back around here to the good old United States.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you were President of the United States and they started a campaign of beheading American after American after American, how would you respond?
unidentified		How would I respond?
		Yes, sir.
		I would throw caution to the wind, and I'd take the battle onto the streets myself in a way that I can't answer exactly specifically what I would do.
		But there comes a time where we just have to take matters in our own hands as citizens and say that enough is enough.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I appreciate your call.
		Thank you.
		You know, you may recall, I didn't get as excited about the so-called torture that went on in Iraq at the hands of the U.S. or whoever, you know, as a lot of people did because, you know, whatever it was, and probably wasn't good, you know, but we were trying to get people to answer questions to save American lives.
		And what's going on?
		War is really a rotten thing.
		So what we did over there really wasn't the worst.
		You know, I mean, if you want to look at beheading people, beheading Americans, well, that's pretty bad.
		And it just doesn't.
		You know, on the one hand, some embarrassment-type torture that we may have done.
		And on the other hand, cutting off of heads.
		There's no balance there at all.
		None.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello?
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Yeah, hi, Ark.
		Hi.
		Bless you and Ramona and your feline friends.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm calling, I'm listening on 650 KST East Sacramento.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Okay, my prediction is September the 15th, there's going to be two nuclear detonations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's a big one, all right.
unidentified		One in Washington, D.C. Wait a minute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Washington, D.C. Okay.
unidentified		And one in Los Angeles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And one in D.C. Yep.
		Holy mackerel.
		All right, then let me ask you a little bit about how you receive.
		That's very specific information, isn't it?
		How does it come to you?
unidentified		I just done a gym on my car.
		I was sitting down on a cooler and in my garage, and I just, I saw it.
		It was just like it happened right in front of me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long ago?
unidentified		A week.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A week ago.
unidentified		Yep.
		I was even hesitant to call because it just what I saw, it was just so it wasn't a dream.
		It was like I saw it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've never I have never had such a thing happen.
		I've had a a little brush with immediate precognition.
		So okay, I've got you down.
		Thank you very much.
unidentified		Thank you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		I had my own.
		This is one of the reasons that I guess I'm so fascinated with all this, and that is because I really did have my own precognitive moment without question.
		There was no question about it.
		It only ever happened one time, and it was something that immediately occurred.
		And so I, you know, not in a million years would I rule out the possibility for people predicting things through what talent and what means, whether it's looking through time or, you know, what do you suppose it is?
		Looking through time?
		Are these men and women, and mostly men, I might add, who make predict, well, of course, Gene Dixon.
		Men and women, are they looking through time?
		Or what mechanism is allowing some very select few people to look into the future and see what's going to happen?
		Any thoughts on that?
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Art, this is Zach from Minneapolis, Minnesota.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		And first of all, I'd like to say it is an honor and pleasure to speak with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Okay, I'm calling regarding the saga of Mels Hull.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mel's Hull.
unidentified		Indeed, Mels Hull.
		Yes.
		Okay, so the first time I heard it, I was quite taken with the genuine nature of Mel's report, despite the far-fetched or out there nature of the story.
		And upon hearing it, I relayed the story to a friend of mine at school in Minneapolis.
		And hearing it, he was taken with it as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did he get to hear the program?
unidentified		Yes, I actually got it off.
		He listened to it on stream links.
		All right.
		Okay.
		And in response, he has taken a journey now.
		He left yesterday to Washington in search of Mel's hole using a GPS coordinates, which he is quite familiar with.
		He heads up a GPS club at the university here.
		Okay.
		And I just wanted to let you know that's going on and wanted to know if you'd be interested in hearing his report.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, of course I would.
		I would be interested in knowing what he intends to do should he find Mel's hole.
		What's he going to do?
		Is he going to...
unidentified		Well, I'm not entirely sure.
unidentified		I think the main purpose is to see if it can be located and or accessed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Suppose it is, though.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then what?
unidentified		Well, what would you do when you reach a place like Mel's Hole?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		Probably what Mel did.
		And he was, you know, put a weight on something and lowered it as far as he could, trying to figure out if there really was a bottom.
		That's the test you would do, I would think.
		What else?
		Maybe throw a rock?
unidentified		I don't know.
		I'm not sure about that.
		I think more in his mind, it was with all the government involvement with roping it off, as it were, the location.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		He intends to see if it is accessible.
unidentified		And if it is accessible, to identify the hole, or at least the location.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have your friend email me with a phone number or some way to get hold of them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		Thank you very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're very welcome.
		Take care.
		Good luck.
		Why are people so fascinated with holes in the ground?
		Have you ever wondered about that?
		I think the answer is because it's the ground we walk on all the time, and we know so doggone little about it, right?
		We really don't know much about the ground we walk on, which is kind of laughable when you think of how we cry to be in space and on other worlds.
		We don't know much about this one.
		What goes on down below the surface?
		Whether there might be a lot more than meets the mind.
		I mean, we really don't know what's way down there, do we?
		Deepest hole ever put in the ground was done by the Russians who made that recording.
		So we don't know a lot about under, in the middle of the earth.
		I love movies about the middle of the earth.
		There was a very good one recently, which I've seen now about three times.
		And I don't watch movies again very often.
		International Line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		This is Daniel from the Mountains of Ramapo.
unidentified		How are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm all right.
unidentified		I've always been forward-looking, and I'm actually writing a book about the end of days that might come out in the next couple of years.
unidentified		It's a very deep work, and it's very complex and very difficult to edit, as you can imagine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, but what I am interested in is a near-term prediction event of something that's about to happen.
unidentified		Okay, I'm aware of that.
		Obviously, Bush being re-elected is a 50-50 chance, but I will mention that I predicted that Bush would win the first election, that he would also win the second election, and it would both be very tight races.
		But beyond that, I will predict for you that, and it's not as immediate as you're looking for, but that Ariel Sharon is the final Prime Minister of Israel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
		Yes, he is.
		Meaning what?
		Meaning that Israel shall be destroyed or what?
unidentified		No, no, no, certainly not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What then?
unidentified		That there will no longer be a Prime Minister of Israel following Sharon's conclusion as Prime Minister.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then what are we going to be left with?
unidentified		Well, there will be a time when there actually will be no Prime Minister, but following The end of his reign after a gap in time, perhaps of nine months, when there is no leader in the country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, how does that happen, though?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, Israel has a constitution and so forth, so how does this come to pass?
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		What happens is the government of Israel, as we know it today, the state of Israel, which is ruled by, let's call it a non-religious government, which historically has never occurred in Israel throughout its long 3,000-year history, will end.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've heard that already.
		I mean, I'm asking you the mechanism.
		How does it end?
unidentified		Well, it's a long, long conversation, but to begin with.
unidentified		The short version of it is basically that the citizenry of Israel will not stand for a non-religious prime minister leading the country down the path.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right.
		Well, thank you very much.
		I'll put that down, but I don't know.
		That sounds more like a personal bias than a short-term prediction to me.
		First time calling Lyon or on here.
unidentified		Hello.
		Yeah, I wanted to make a prediction.
		It's actually there's going to be a major disaster in 2005.
		Actually, it comes from my spiritual teacher, who's an Indian saint.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What manner of disaster?
unidentified		She hasn't clarified exactly.
		She said it could be a natural disaster, it could be a volcano, but it's going to be so major it's going to make 9-11 look like nothing.
		It's going to affect the whole world, and it's actually probably going to bring people more to God because it's going to affect the whole economic system, not just America, the whole world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do you feel that this lady is right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, what gives you faith that she knows what she's predicting?
unidentified		Just because all this she's done in the past, her name is Amichi.
		She's a saint from South India.
		She started all kinds of charities throughout India and the whole world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How did you find out about the prediction?
unidentified		She actually publicized it last summer on her summer tour to the United States.
		She's always traveling around the whole world.
		And when she came to the United States last summer, she wrote an open letter declaring that this was going to happen in 2005.
		And she actually encouraged people to kind of pray for peace.
		And recently, last September of 2004, there was a big birthday in India honoring her where hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world came to pray for peace.
		She wanted people to pray for peace in order to minimize the damage from this impending disaster.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So she obviously feels that prayer has the power to change events.
unidentified		Yes, if not prevent the event, at least minimize the damage from the upcoming event.
unidentified		So that's what she feels, that by the world praying and individuals praying for peace, we can minimize the negative effects from this event.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got it.
		All right.
		Thank you very much.
		So something major that'll make what happened at the Twin Towers in Henagan look like nothing in 2005.
		Okie dokie.
		Coming up, John Hogue, and we're going to talk about the predictions of Nostradamus.
unidentified		It don't count me dead.
		You know it don't count me dead.
		It don't count me dead.
		You know it don't count me dead.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		To use those things, our memories hoard possibly to prophesize.
		What do you think?
		We're about to take a ride with John Hogue.
		John Hogue writes on the subjects of the occult, parapsychology, mysticism, prophecy.
		He actually is considered a world authority on Nostradamus, a world authority, and is the best-selling author of numerous books, including Nostradamus, The Complete Prophecies, and Nostradamus, The New Millennium, The Millennium Book of Prophecy: The Last Pope and Messiahs, The Visions and Prophecies for the Second Coming.
		His work has brought him international acclaim.
		He's been published in 18 languages, sold over a million copies worldwide.
		In addition, he has appeared on over 700 radio and TV shows across three vast continents.
		In a moment, John Hogue.
		By the way, just a quick program note.
		Tomorrow night, I'm going to be really flying to be back here.
		I've got to go to our local radio station, you know, KNYE here in Perump, and choreograph the fireworks that our community is going to blast into the sky tomorrow night.
		I'll tell you something.
		This little town of Perump, by the way, is supposedly the second growth, the fastest growing town in America, according to New York Times.
		Can you believe that?
		Oh, man, it's going wild around here.
		Perump is going absolutely berserk.
		New York Times had it.
		Anyway, we have this monstrous, monstrous in the desert celebration.
		I mean, they really rock and roll out here with the 4th of July.
		And so I'll be dashing back here after choreographing that stuff.
		And that's going to be a lot of fun tomorrow night, but I'll just barely, barely make it back here.
		That's tomorrow night.
		When we're also going to be doing predictions.
		Now, not the usual predictions, but I'm looking for the truly talented out there.
		And I'm going to have a talk with John Hoag about this in a second.
		But I am convinced there are people, not just the man Nostradamus and some select few others, but actually quite a few who are able to do this and probably on a regular basis.
		I'm sure they don't go around telling people a lot, maybe close family members like that man did, but generally they don't hold themselves out as a prophet and say what they know, but there are people who know these things.
		And so we're going to do a night of very short-term stuff that's about to happen, John.
		That's what I'm going to ask my audience to predict something that's just about to happen, something really pending, not far out, but pretty soon.
		And so first of all, I kind of wonder, John, how you feel about that?
		Nostradamus obviously was exceptionally talented, but not alone.
		I mean, there are other people who can do this, aren't there?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Well, after 30 years art of studying this subject of the ability to predict the future, I've come across at least 200 people that pass a very harsh regimen of documented prophecies from the last 5,000 years.
		There you go.
		Now, the problem with documentation is that the termite of time obviously eats up most records, so I'm sure there are many, many more.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The termite of time never gets to my lists.
		I do.
		I write them all down.
		I keep track of them, and I've had some.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		How many termites out there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Remarkable hits.
		Really, I have.
		I mean, so there are talented people, and I'm going to ask a bunch of questions.
		It might apply to Nostradamus.
		It might apply to all the people that we're talking about right now.
		But the one thing I really want to know, probably you're not going to be able to answer, John, or maybe you can go ahead and take a shot at it.
		But I want to know through what medium, through what mechanism, what power, how is this done by people like Nostradamus and others, seers?
		I had one little giant experience, you can believe that, little, because it's only one, but precognitive thing of something that virtually happened right away.
		So I could believe that people's brains could see things that would be far off or even near term.
		I can buy that.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Art.
		Well, I'll tell you, to answer that question, I have to ask you a question about the moment.
		What space were you in in the moment when you had this epiphany?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Huh?
		I was watching CBS Evening News.
		I was sitting on my couch.
		You know, the audience has heard this.
		I don't want to bore them.
		It was so strong that when it happened, it brought me to my knees.
		And then, of course, the event occurred immediately.
		Someone hit my car.
		So I don't want to tell the whole story.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Anyway.
		No, the details, if I be more specific, the details are not as important as the space that you were in, in the moment that you could see what was coming.
		Were you in a kind of a gap?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was watching the news.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It came over me.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		You were relaxed, and it just sort of kind of unguarded moment came up on you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It came on like crashing ocean waves, so strong that I couldn't ignore it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was incredible from that point of view.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		I would, from my many case studies, I would say that I imagine before that crash of almost like an endorphin rush of that's it, Eureka kind of happened to you.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		I would imagine there was an infinitesimal moment where your mind ceased to think, your hopes and fears about whatever was going on in the moment had relaxed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		And in that unguarded moment, your mind actually touched upon the potential that all human minds have to see and be aware and expand their awareness beyond this present moment into the past, into the future, and into the eternity of the present.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't remember being in that condition, John.
		Honestly, you are, because it wasn't there.
		I was just watching the evening news.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		The problem is that it's a very atomically small moment that a lot of people where this comes out.
		The impression of the insight actually comes back into real time.
		It's hard to deal with something.
		this is what I'm trying to do.
		I'm trying to talk about technicolor with black and white words.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, nor am I even trying to suggest that what happened to me is what gave Nostradamus his prophecy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not even trying to suggest that.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		I understand that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm just saying that happened to me, so I can believe that other human minds are, for example, able to do what Nostradamus did and many others in the audience, I think, can do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was just wondering what the mechanism is.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		The mechanism is a completely relaxed mind.
		The mechanism is when your thoughts cease, when you're in a cool and quiet space.
		Now, this can come through great ritual like Nostradamus did to create it.
		It can come in a split second so quick that the conscious mind cannot even grasp it as it passes.
		When you look at the study of Nostradamus' few references to what happened to him when he went into his secret study over 450 years ago and locked the door in South France in the 1550s and sat down in a form of secret meditation.
		Basically, what he was doing was clearing the mind of all cares.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you tell me a little of the early Nostradamus?
		Do you know how he have any idea how he stumbled upon his own ability?
		How did he recognize it and when?
		Do you know?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Well, he admits that it is a hereditary gift.
		So what that can mean is a couple things, that it is a genetic predisposition, or it's a genetic predisposition that is encouraged by family members who have had the same experience.
		So he was a child that did not learn the tension that most of us learn, that when we have experiences, our parents or our pedagogues or our priests say, no, no, you're imagining things.
		Stifle that if you want our love and our food and our care.
		And to give you an example, I've come across fortunate moments where I've met little children who come up to me and say, oh yeah, that happened to me as well when I was old.
		And I say, oh, and you were old, but you're a little boy.
		What do you mean?
		And he said, no, in my last life I was old like that guy over there, and I got gray and I got old and all of that.
		And what I've noticed with certain children is that children often will talk in this way, and parents who have already been programmed to shut down their own intuition...
		Yeah, they say, now, son, you're talking crazy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I know.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		And so most of this magic that we're born with is stifled by the age of five.
		But fortunately, the system that is trying to stifle it is imperfect.
		So it can always be reawakened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, in the specific case of Nostradamus, do you have any knowledge about when in his life he realized this, when it began?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		How early?
		It would seem that it was after the shock of his wife dying, his first wife and children dying of the plague in Ajon in the 1530s, late 1530s.
		It seems to have happened when he had reached the pinnacle.
		There's indications that he obviously in his own writings had this awareness that there was a second sight, and he might have even been studying it as he was getting his apothecary degree and later his medical degree, which led to him reaching the pinnacle of anybody of his station as a Christianized Jew becoming a doctor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you believe it was concurrent with a lot of this, and he kept it, what, quiet, silent, secret?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Perhaps.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		We don't know, except we do know this, that when a great tragedy happened to him that shook the whole foundations of his perceptions and values, that shock seemed to set him on the course to becoming a mystic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Your wife and your children dying in the plague would surely be.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		And then the Inquisition coming.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's true.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		And then the family of the wife suing you for the dowry and winning in a very public trial.
		One blow to the ego after the other.
		And finally, the Inquisition inquiring about something he said in his heyday.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't get it.
		You know, you just said that, and I didn't know that was history.
		I didn't know that was part of his history.
		He was sued for the dowry by the family of the wife.
		Yes.
		On the basis of the fact that, what, she died with the children in the plague?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Well, he's a doctor, and people thought in their mob common sense that a doctor who can cure other people shouldn't have his wife and children die.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		If he does, the superstition dictates that he must be in league with the devil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		You know, this is unfortunately the kind of superstition that was quite rife at that time.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Also, the statement he made, which got him in trouble with the Inquisition, sounded very Calvinist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, I mean, think about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They bitch about baseless litigation these days.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Well, in those days, you could get burned at the stake for it or put in the dock guilty before proven innocent, even much more than today.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		We have made some improvements, though.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So this atmosphere, of course, is what accounts for his laying all these out in these seemingly difficult to interpret quatrains, right?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Well, the reason why his sight he was convinced he had, and I believe he did have the sight to see the future because of many things I've seen over the last 30 years in studying him and seeing actually the evolution of some interpretations come true, one of them being what happened with 911, which I've been commenting on showing signs of some attack on New York.
		I started in 1983 to write articles and later books evolving an interpretation about a couple things that we might talk about tonight.
		One is his prophecies concerning what looked like an attack on New York that we'd know it was about New York as being the code-named great new city at 45 degrees latitude if the French tried to warn the Americans before it happened that the attack was imminent.
		And as far back as 83, I was saying, well, if this is a nuclear or nuclear terrorist attack on New York, of course, I was seeing it in the veil of Cold War perceptions, as many prophets and prophets and interpreters of the time were doing.
		So initially I was saying, well, it sounds like an attack on New York where the Hollow Mountains fall into a tub, a boiling cauldron, which is the other term for tub in the old French word that Nasir Thomas uses.
		And they will want verification from the French when this is happening.
		And as back far back as 1983, I started forming putting together a prophecy interpretation that said this is about an attack on New York.
		Now, when 1993 happened and the two twin towers of the World Trade Center were attacked, fortunately, unsuccessfully, by a car bomb in a truck that was underneath in the subterranean parking lot, with the intention of toppling one tower into the other.
		Absolutely.
		I wrote in Nastradamus, the New Millennium and Nastradamus The Complete Prophecies, I updated and evolved the interpretation of this, saying, well, as we get closer to events, I mean, a theory that I run that folks who want to cram me up a preconceived conclusion that interpretation should just stand rigid and not change don't understand that the future is as dynamic as the present.
		And that there are a lot of signs in Nasradamas' prophecies that there are alternative futures that looked like they were going somewhere but hit a dead end.
		Now, with that in mind, there seems to be timelines, quantum futures, that are indicating that one should always be open to a new interpretation.
		With the theory being is if you get closer to the times, the clues make more sense.
		Obviously, if some strange clue doesn't make a lot of sense 100 years ago, 200 years ago, it can make more sense closer to the mark.
		For instance, clues like In the Path of the Hollow Mountains was one of the phrases of the two prophecies concerning 911.
		And when you realize there's the Path Subway, and Hollow Mountains could be a 16th century man's attempt to describe 110-story buildings, and the second plane that crashed into the South Tower actually cast its shadow over the Hudson River right above the underground submarine railway known as the Path Subway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, quick question.
		Isn't it an awfully thin line between...
		Isn't it a thin line between being a successful interpreter of the quatrains and being something of a prophet yourself?
		It's an awfully thin line.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Have you even thinner than that?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		It's a balancing on a razor's edge.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So have you ever wondered about yourself?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		I run from the point of view that from the theory that my life is a test of that everyone has the ability to see the future, to see the future potentials, the stressed potentials, because the future is not written in stone.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		It is as dynamic as the present because we are changing the future right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Some are more talented than others, John, and you're more talented than others.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		I would redefine it as somehow I got through the conditioning process broken.
		That I didn't become a completely efficient machine according to how this process, which is very ancient to us, this process of conditioning, which comes from our animal past.
		There's nothing wrong with the animals but being from an animal past, but a lot of the things that we consider human about us are actually a form of mechanical instinctive imperative that is fundamentally against us waking up from its machine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Back on November 12, 2000, on this program, you said that if President Bush was president, he'd get America stuck on the ground in a major war in the Middle East, most likely, with Iraq at the end of 2002 predicted it would be America's second Vietnam, right?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that is correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, I want to talk to you about that.
unidentified		Hold on.
unidentified		You got me running, going out of my mind.
layne staley [aic] ▲ ● ▼		You got me thinking that I'm wasting my time.
unidentified		Don't win me now.
		No, no, no, no, no.
		Can't believe what you're hearing?
		Listen to it again.
		When you sign up for ScreenLink at www.coastocoastam.com.
		It's only 15 cents a day.
layne staley [aic] ▲ ● ▼		You want to stay out with your fancy friends?
		I'm telling you it's time to pay the end.
		Don't let me down.
unidentified		No, no, no, no, no.
		I'm telling you what's wrong before you get up.
		Don't let me down.
		My back.
		At all of the moon, I've only did surrender.
		Oh, yeah.
		And I have met my business in me.
		It's quite a single word.
		The mystery book on the shelf.
		It's always repeating itself.
		I was defeated you on the wall Wallaloo I promise you'll love me forevermore Wallaloo Couldn't escape me by Wallaloo Wallaloo Knowing what fate is to be true Wallaloo Wallaloo
		Finally facing my wall I tried to hold you back when you were stronger To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295 The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222
		To talk with Art Bell from East to the Rockies call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From West to the Rockies Call Art at 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art Bell by calling your in-country spread access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast, and worldwide on the internet.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think we're all puppets on a string?
		Have you ever wondered about that?
		I mean, you know that it's my destiny right now to be sitting here and doing a talk show with John Hoag on Ocean Thomas.
		And it's your destiny to be doing whatever you're doing and listening to it.
		Or whatever else in life.
		That all, everything is predetermined, preordained, and those who are reading the future are simply looking at sort of a book that's already, they're reading a book that's already been written, and it's going to unfold page after page and paragraph after paragraph.
		The End Yeah, we'll ask a little bit about destiny.
		But first, this prediction.
		You know, November 12, 2000, you said that if Bush got to be president, he'd get America stuck on the ground in a major war in the Middle East, most likely Iraq that would be just second Vietnam for America.
		That's one hell of an accurate prediction from today's perspective, isn't it?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Unfortunately, yes.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		One I would wish was completely wrong, but maybe we can still make it wrong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How is this derived?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's derived from a study of predictive astrology, a study of Nostradamus' prophecies related to a second crusade in Mesopotamia, which is referred to in his 33rd quatrain of volume 6 of his History of the Future, the prophecies.
		And it was probably written in 1556.
		And this and several other prophecies related to a key figure who is a man in black that would trigger a widespread war out of this area of Mesopotamia.
		You take all those factors, you take as many empirical factors as you can and extrapolate objective trends, and then at a certain point you also have to liberate yourself from all that and also bring in the subjective.
		Work of prophecy is basically finding the sweet point between objective study and subjective flights of insight.
		And the process is as individual and private and unique as it is for every person.
		How you come to it, how I come to it, how anyone comes to it is individual.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's why I asked you about that very thin line.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Seems to me like you're about across it.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Sometimes, sometimes I'm not.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Sometimes what I'm seeing is nothing more than my hopes and fears projected from my subconscious.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, well, you apparently have learned to tell the difference.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Well, I kind of run on the theory that if, and I think it's very important, and I would suggest also to everyone tomorrow who is going to make their predictions on your show, is to kind of watch for those tricks of the mind that come up in the name of prophecy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right.
		How does my audience differentiate as they're trying to spend a quiet, contemplative moment and they're really trying to come up with something to say on this program, should they get through tomorrow?
		How should they, what state of mind should they put themselves in?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Well, they need to, the first thing they need to do is drop all goals.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All goals?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		All goals of trying to obtain some future understanding, trying to obtain anything.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Because one thing that Nasradana seemed to imply in his occult prophecies that hint at how he would prepare himself is he had to get out of his own way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You only get it if you don't really want it?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		You only get it if you neither want it or don't want it.
		Oh, boy.
		It's something similar to what the Buddhists call the middle way.
		You're neither for or against it.
		Then it's almost like what you've done with your mind and your body and your emotions is make them become something like an open window.
		And then it depends on what the sky wishes to bring in.
		If nothing comes, nothing comes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		If such is the case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In which case, don't call me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, but if something comes whizzing through and hits you like a whatever, then call.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		And I would add, if it comes in whizzing through, be mindful that so much of how we interpret what whizzes through is colored by our hopes and fears.
		And oftentimes when you study prophecy, you look at a certain prophecy and how it's been interpreted over the centuries, you often see people coloring it with their own hopes and fears.
		And a study of Nasrdamis is very valuable in that way.
		And like in my book, Nasrdamis with the Complete Prophecies, which look at all of his major prophecies from that book, The Prophecies, which he wrote, started in 1555 and finished in 1560.
		I show, sometimes I'll do something with a prophecy where you'll see this incredible interpretation from the 17th century that's like, yeah, that's got to be about that.
		And then the next paragraph just takes that and throws it in the dumpster and then gives you an interpretation coming from the 19th century, which just is like, wow, it equally sounds like that's exactly what it is.
		And then I give my interpretation from this time.
		And it's like you've got three interpretations that look like, wow, this is it.
		And they all can't be it.
		But what it is, at least it's showing us when I do that occasionally in interpreting the prophecies, I'm trying to use this as a device to help the reader understand just how easily we can put our own expectations on the fly paper of Nasser Damas' obscurity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, do you think that the people, many of them listening in this audience right now who know how to do this, that they hide the fact or if not hide it, then just simply don't talk about it?
		I mean, are there a lot of them like that out there?
		Maybe they tell family close members, maybe they don't.
		Maybe they keep this to themselves.
		I don't know.
		This may be a fairly common ability, much more common than we know because people don't talk about it.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		And the reason they don't talk about it is that this kind of conditioned Pavlovian reactive way in which we are trained to just sort of hold on to borrowed ideas and identities when we come into life.
		We adopt a name, a nationality, all these things.
		There's a certain program in that that says anybody that breaks out of that system is an anomaly to that system.
		So any, I mean, look at how...
		Yeah, and so you see, it's not encouraged.
		It's not insight.
		And even more seemingly mundane things, an insight into a better automobile engine, an insight into a better way to fly.
		People are predisposed to be afraid, I would contest, afraid to see new things because we kind of habitually would prefer to even embrace a prison because if our life is a prison, because it's familiar.
		Prophets, insightful visionaries of any ilk are always breaking out of that mold.
		And so for the majority of them that just don't have an opportunity or just feel like they'll be crushed in doing it, I do believe there are many, many people out there.
		And they write to me, many of them, saying that, yeah, I saw that too, but I just can't talk about it.
		Some of them are even writing to me from Muslim countries and other countries, and they say, my culture, if I started talking about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the answer is yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's people all around.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		In a roundabout way of saying yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got that.
		All right.
		As I came out of the last commercial break, I was sort of musing about whether prophets are reading from a book that's already been written, you know, paragraph, sentence for sentence, paragraph by paragraph, chapter by chapter.
		Is everything predestined?
		Otherwise, and if not, then how are people able to read what will happen in the future?
		It does make you think about that possibility.
		It has to.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it's one of the fundamental questions to meditate on if you're a studier of prophecy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'm asking.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		And after 30 years, my conclusion at this point is that it only appears to be predictable and written because we are training each generation to be so mechanical.
		And here's an interesting reason why that could be changing.
		Back in the book, Millennium Book of Prophecy, I wrote a timeline which showed the most difficult form, most difficult discipline of prophetic forecasting, which is where you predict a date, distant future date, and it comes true.
		Now, you have to have a whole lot of individual and collective factors over centuries that allows that to happen.
		So it's very, very hard to say, like Master Damas did back in 1558, that in 1792 the king would be deposed by the vulgar advent of the peasants of France.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can I ask you an off-the-wall question, John?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If there are certain factors and history that fits into predictive capability, then, John, have you ever wondered whether an accurately written computer software program, given the right question, might be able to review all of its stored history and whatever all factors you put into it and actually make a prediction?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't need to be even a computer.
		If you understand, I oppose to you that if you have an intuition into the ways people are programmed to repeat the past and call it the future, it doesn't take a lot of clairvoyance to predict a lot of things.
		For instance, like the note I sent you for this show concerning this strange echo, karmic echo, a 40-year cycle of events that happened back in the 60s that seem to be coming back again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A karmic echo, history repeating itself, right?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Yes, because we haven't learned the lesson.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		And in the note, I talked about how other countries, people programmed to consider themselves Germans or Russians, all follow a similar education that makes them, feeds them to repeat lessons collectively until they learn them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, define this karmic echo for me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're saying we're having a karmic reaction now to what we did in the 60s, is that correct?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what did we do in the 60s to earn what we've got today?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Let's look at some things.
		I'm going to give you some elements initially, and then we'll go into more in-depth about it.
		But just to touch on it, isn't it interesting that back in 2000, we had a vice president lose a very close disputed election from a man named JFK, Vice President Richard Nixon, who was asked by some of his advisors to protest what he figured was an illegal election.
		And he decided not to protest it and let things pass.
		Now, 40 years later, in 2000, a Democrat vice president, eight years in office, runs into the same disputed state in a very close election.
		And he does not actually step back and let things lie.
		He protests it.
		Notice that approaching 2004, we have a JFK, a John Forbes Kerry.
		We had a John Fitzgerald Kennedy 40 years or so back.
		Now, it's slightly off, but the element is still there in time.
		You had of a Texan president, Lyndon Baines Johnson, who on a misunderstanding and a botched intelligence report on the Gulf of Tonkin incident gets America into Vietnam on the ground and over North Vietnam bombing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You think the Gulf of Tonkin was botched intelligence?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Yes, there is indication McNamara admitted it, that they actually, after a week, realized that there were no patrol boats from North Vietnam attacking U.S. destroyers.
		It was then a reason that since they were already engaged in the war that they would do, as 40 years later has happened, weapons of mass destruction in another Texan president's war, decided to change the reason why we were there,
		not because of an incident of weapons of mass destruction, not because of an incident 40 years ago in Vietnam because of Gulf of Tonkin, but for the greater strategic struggle that they had 40 years ago with communism, we have with the war on terror.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is our current reason for being in Iraq?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		The, the, that's another, that's a whole other thing.
		That's a whole nother issue beyond the 40-year cycle.
		It's a good issue.
		And I could get into that, but maybe we hold on that question and stay on track with this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The original question was whether it's all predestined, and I still want a straightforward answer to that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it all unwinding as is written somewhere up on high?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		No.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		We are programmed to believe it is, and therefore because we're programmed to believe it is, it looks like it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It looks like it is.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		But it isn't.
		And to get back to the whole thing that proved it for me, the dated predictions are very dense in number up until the 21st century.
		And then they peter out completely.
		Then there is no dated prediction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then what are you suggesting?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The things were preordained until that moment, and then they began to get more random?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		What I'm saying is that something is breaking this predictability factor, that there is a future.
		Certainly there's indications of distant futures.
		There are a few dates.
		Nasradamus goes 1,800 years ahead of this time as the end of the world in the year 3797.
		So there are enough indications to show that there's still history going on, but it's harder for the prophets to predict what it's going to do.
		Now, there's a couple possibilities with that.
		People start to understand that they're being programmed to repeat the future in the 21st century because they have to see it because if they keep going the way they're going, they're going to end civilization.
		This will be the last chance century.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, though, John, if there are certain aspects of prediction that are based on, for example, what will be karmic history or karma from history, then it seems to me that a computer might have a chance, actually, if what you're saying is true.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Well, a computer, like I said before, a computer has a chance because it's a machine.
		A human being that is programmed to behave like a machine will also be predictable.
		So of course a computer can crunch a future, and if the future it's crunching is about people who are behaving like machines, then the odds are that they will do a lot of the things that are foreseen.
		However, if the people stop being mechanical, if they look and see the nature of why they are programmed to repeat the past and call it the future, if in the 21st century humanity must break that pattern to survive, which I believe is what will happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're sure that's just not an optimistic hope?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Remember, the future is born in the present.
		It is not an optimistic hope if enough people see it.
		Then it changes the future.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But then I could argue that was destined to happen all along.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		You could.
		You could argue that.
		But you could also argue that if you don't do it, if you just follow the process, then the world will end.
		That's the other reason why.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But again, you're saying that there was a period of time when specific date predictions were made by the lot, tons and tons of them, and they were very accurate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that ability seems to have waned or even stopped.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		It stops in the 21st century.
		And it stops for a couple reasons.
		We either cease to exist because we're robots that break down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was going to say, one of them would be very worrisome.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Or, you know, the thing that gets beyond the speculation of what is and the wherefores and the why-nots of what we can do is prophecy, as I understand it, whether it's predictable or not, whether it's preordained or not, the thing that I as an individual would want to do with my life is let that burden of whether it's preordained be on someone else's divine shoulders.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		I am going to do something that I can do and I'm free to do in my little life, and that is stop being a programmed machine and be spontaneous with my future.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Hold it right there, John.
		On the other hand, it would be very bad if a machine could predict the future, wouldn't it?
		That's something somebody, one of you computer whizzes out there might want to look at.
		If there's always karma based on what we do now for the future, then that karma could be predicted by a computer.
		Hey, yeah, yeah.
		Probably XP could do it, huh?
		From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		I'm Art Bell.
		Bye.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, our guests don't get paid a penny to come on the program.
		John Hoag isn't getting one red penny.
		So, it's very polite to plug their books for them.
		And John Hoag, since he's a world-acknowledged world expert on Nostradamus, if you want to read more about this, then here's the natural way.
		He's written a book called Nostradamus, A Life and Myth.
		We'll ask about that.
		Nostradamus, The New Millennium, and Messiahs, The Visions and Prophecies for the Second Coming.
		All of these books are available, of course, at amazon.com.
		So do some reading.
		If you're interested in this whole thing, then obviously this is the man to read, and those are the books that he would like you to read.
		We'll be right back.
		I remember that.
		And I'm sure you do, too.
		One more time, and I'm turning this car around.
		We're going straight home.
		Every parent has said that, haven't they?
		Every single parent.
		All right.
		John Hoag is my guest.
		And here we go once again.
		John, welcome back.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Are we there yet?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Are we there yet?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're here.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		This is the other thing that always comes on out of the car.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
		I want to do a couple of very specific things because you've given them to me, you know, on the paper I get here prior to the show.
		There are very specific prophecies about the war we're involved in now.
		For so long, people were wondering, you know, when is terrorism coming?
		Well, boom, 9-11.
		Now they're cutting the heads off Americans and other nationalities.
		And man, are we involved in a war on terror?
		And there's a prediction, isn't there, that this is going to go on for, what, 27 years?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		27 years.
		The War of the Third Antichrist, it's called in Nostradamus.
		It comes from Quatrain 77 of Century 8.
		And it's tied into another famous quatrain that most interpreters think alludes to this Third Antichrist in the code name of Mabus, M-A-B-U-S.
		And what makes a lot of interpreters think that there's a correlation is that the two quatrains tend to have in different words but a similar impact.
		And basically the impact, the import is that this figure, unlike the other two figures, which was called Hister for Hitler, and Paul Nealeran, which is an anagram Napoleonois, Napoleon King, this third one, Mabus, is the first to die in his war.
		That actually the real war begins when he's extinguished, not whatever fighting is happening before.
		It's just a preamble to the real war, which is caused because of his fall.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And who do you think this is?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		There are a number of people I've been looking at as candidates since 1986.
		The current candidates of interest, some of them come, some of them go.
		It depends on events.
		For a long, long time, you know, we talked through the 90s about Saddam Hussein as being one of the key figures that could be this person.
		Then the rise of Osama bin Laden came, and Osama bin Laden also spells out the name Mahbus.
		You take the B from bin, you have MAAUS replace the redundant A with a B, you have Mahbus.
		Classic anagramming.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that puts him how high on your list?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		He's right up there in the top three.
		Now, because of this, you had a questioner in your first hour talk about Abu Musab al-Zakawi.
		Now, Abu Musab Musab is interesting because another form of anagramming is where you drop the first and last letter and leave the middle letters.
		So you drop M and S, you have Abu out of Mabus, which is father in Arabic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And he would be where on the list?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Well, when you add to that, because many, many Arab men are called Abu, it's like saying, oh, the guy's name is Joe.
		You know, a lot of people name Joe.
		So what makes it more interesting is the fact that Musab in phonetic Roman letters from the Arabic has all the letters of Mabus in it.
		And another interesting drop, if you drop the M and B, you get USA, which is kind of an interesting anagram, because there is another famous anagram which talks about a war that seems to be about the two rivers of Iraq, the Tigris and Euphrates, and an anagram about something called Alus.
		Well, these are all...
		If you understand that some of these are in French, ALUS, A-L-U-S, is actually you take the L, that's the L abbreviated for L, for le, in French you have le U-S-A out of ALUS, which is the USA.
		So it links up with a man who is fitting the anagram for Mahbus, who is active in Iraq as a terrorist, and is somehow linked to a fight with the USA, the USA.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and we're trying to kill all these men you mentioned.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and the other thing, too, is that it's very likely that Abu Masab Zakawi, al-Zakawi, is another attempt of making a boogeyman out of somebody, making him bigger than he really is.
		But in prophecy, that doesn't matter.
		If the perception is he's big, and if his death, even if we are the ones creating his myth of importance, if the myth is believed, then the myth makes the future.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's like voodoo.
unidentified		Well, it is actually...
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Because belief is based fundamentally on ignorance.
		It's putting your trust on ignorance rather than direct experience.
		And it is a known fact amongst mystics and practitioners of meditation that if you live by belief or ignorance, you are prone to be very mechanical and predictable, which is what we were talking about in the last two hours.
		That we are like that computer that makes a predictable future until we stop acting like a computer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But we already have, really.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, if what you have said earlier is accurate, we've already begun to deviate from the very predictable past, right?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		We have the chance in the 21st century.
		We're not quite there yet.
		The time when things come unglued as far as that predictability is in the 2020s.
		That's what the datings and the descriptions of prophecies, what indicate climate disruption and other fundamental breakdowns that force human beings to look at the whole spectrum of their civilization, from the economy, from their religions, from everything, and say, you know, we don't have a future if we keep going the way we're going, so we have to change.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, a lot of key questions are involved in all of this, like whether Osama bin Laden will be captured and or killed or whatever, whether we'll get him.
		And then, of course, whether we can have another 9-11 or even larger event than 9-11 occur.
		What do you say?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Well, it is in a war that lasts 27 years, it's almost without any clairvoyance that if that is the path we are hypnotizing ourselves to follow by not learning karmic lessons, then yes, there will be another attack.
		It takes no profit to see that.
		The question is exactly when.
		I am more of the mind to think that it will be somewhere around 2008, not so soon.
		And the reasons that I come to that, well, partially they're objective reasons and also through intuition, subjective reasons, is that you hear probably a lot on your shows about the 2012, the Mayan calendar.
		It's amazing how so much hype has been put on that date when, indeed, there's another calendar in prophetic events, much larger calendar than the Mayan calendar, which covers a 26,700-year period called the cosmic year.
		And that's cut down into months that that's where you get your age of Pisces, which is like 2,000 years or so long.
		And then now we're supposed to be entering the age of Aquarius, which is basically a new month in the 12-month year, this big, huge time clock, which has days that last 72 normal years.
		36 of them are night, 36 of them are day.
		Every time, if you look at every 36-year cycle, you will find significant things happening that define how we look at everything for better or worse in the next 36 years.
		For instance, go back to the count back from now to the last 36 years, and you get the period between 1972 and 1973.
		Notice that that's when the war of terror in many ways began.
		The Munich bombings with the PLO became quite violent at that time.
		It was the Yom Kippur War at that time.
		The Arab oil embargo around that time.
		The fall of Nixon and the creating of this evolution of people feeling disassociated with their government in America started at that time.
		These have dictated and colored a lot of our actions for the next 36 years.
		And what I'm saying is that the people who are looking at 2011, 2012 as this significant time are missing the point that it's coming a few years earlier than that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You think around 2008?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		2008, 2009, you're going to see major events that will define the next 36 years of history, which happen to be some of the most volatile years of history coming, where we enter an evolutionary crisis.
		So I'm basically saying that by 2008, it's going to become very apparent to many of us that we have entered the crisis where we have to stop being predictable or we won't survive.
		So because human beings always have a will to survive, I trust that we will drop those fossilized ideas that are making us self-destruct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's certainly the half-full glass of water way of looking at it.
		I hope you're right.
		But history doesn't necessarily show you to be right, does it?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		No, and basically one of the things that will happen in that 36-year period, and there's prophets that have talked about it, and I've talked about them in my books, is they're basically people at that time are going to understand that the past has betrayed us.
		We have to recreate ourselves.
		I suppose that it's as significant as when the monkeys fell out of the tree many four million years ago and couldn't get back in, so their simian past betrayed them, so they had to go forward as human beings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Walk around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		And all the monkeys laughed at them, but who got the last laugh?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I don't know.
		Human backs, you know, standing vertically, really aren't meant to hold all that weight.
		Listen, so I really want to be as specific as we can about the current war going on.
		For example, you know, if a caller in the first hour asked me, you know, how I thought we could win or resolve, you know, the current crisis in Iraq, and I told him the truth, I'll be damned if I know.
		Is there anything that you can tell us about how this will resolve?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course, in my books, I go into a lot more detail, and one will have to bear with me that I'm kind of coming to the one-liner endings, but a lot of what I'm saying is explain in detail how I came to these ideas that we wouldn't have enough time in four hours to make sure that I just want to preface that before I just go into what sounds like pat bing-bang boom statements.
		No, I got you.
		And there are indications in Nasser Damas' prophecies that a country ruled under the sign of cancer and a leader under the sign of cancer would have a significant moment,
		a window, an opportunity to kind of review what had gone wrong in a relationship that led to a war, which it's called a ruinous war under cancer, which for layman's terms is significant in that it's probably describing,
		because the date and the aspects in this astrology in Nasradamus is for the year 2002, a time of great assessment after 911, a time where a country under the astrological sign of cancer was in a war.
		The president is born under the sign of cancer.
		George W. Bush is in this war.
		And it was a window of opportunity for one of the combatants, the ones under cancer, to see their part in a long dysfunctional relationship with the Middle East.
		And how, you know, certainly the other side has done a lot of evil and horrible things.
		But, you know, it's just like any fight you have with some adversarial situation with another human being.
		Ultimately, you defend yourself, but if it's a dysfunctional relationship, at a certain point, you've got to kind of own up to your side of what made it not work.
		It's just like a relationship.
		And in a way, it is as simple as that.
		The relationship between huge nations, huge cultures interacting with each other is fundamentally the same thing.
		You're right.
		So, yes, the other side has done horrible things to us.
		That is a given.
		But if one wants to break the cycle of, well, you hit me and I didn't hit you, but you slugged me, and then I react by slugging you back, and of course, what are you going to do if you're slugged back?
		You're going to slug harder.
		And you get into a cycle of violence that just destroys both people until one or the other says, you know what?
		I'm tired of this.
		I've got to look at why you first slugged me.
		Maybe I did something according to your value systems, which I don't understand, but your value systems, your religion, your culture, I did something to you that made you so angry that you were throwing people in planes into my buildings that symbolized my wealth and my military.
		The thing is, until there was an opportunity in 2002 for dramatic self-examination for the United States in the situation, for their part in the war, that window came and went.
		So now, there's two ways it can go.
		And I was talking, I think, on George Nuri's spot a few times and other people during that period that there's two ways America I predicted could go.
		Either they could come up with a new policy that tried to understand the cultural blind spots that got us into this in the Middle East, or we would actually be more reactive, like the punch back, more reactive than before and actually follow our dysfunction even deeper.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't see the glass filling with water right now.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		No, it is.
		We've done the reaction.
		We've done the reaction, which means that windows come in history for opportunities for growth, and then they pass.
		And then we kind of musk things up again and get to a point again where we get tired of being punched and punching at people.
		And then we kind of sit back and go, wait, I've got to see this again.
		Maybe there's something I need to look at here.
		The next Windows 2008.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So we can, again, either be in the punch mode then or the preventative and healing mode.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		The understanding mode.
		It's been said that, you know, it's interesting we are so focused in the Middle East.
		But when you look at the history of the Middle East, I mean, sometimes it comes to me, you know, before there was oil and before there was a need for oil, the Western world didn't give a damn about the Middle East.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are we going to be then the occupiers being chipped away at in a war of attrition between now and 2008?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Well, if we perceive that we need, that it is an imperative for the survival of our Western civilization, that we need the fossil fuels to run it.
		And since it appears that, now I'm not saying this is what it is, this is one thing I'll throw out there for people to consider.
		That since I mean, talking on your show years ago, back in 99, I was saying how there's indications that the oil reserves, the affordable to extract from the earth, are about to run out.
		And at that time, it was not talked about a lot, but now it's becoming common conversation that easily drillable oil is no longer around except for Iraq and Saudi Arabia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, peak oil.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So are you saying we're in Iraq for the oil?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		I think that, yes, I do.
		And it is, because why else would we be there?
		I often put to people, what other reason are we there?
		Why would we ever be in the Middle East before 1950?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're getting no argument from me.
		Hold on, John.
		Yeah, why else would we be there?
		Well, maybe the weapons of mass destruction, the freedom for the people of Iraq from a brutal dictator.
		But there are so many brutal dictators all over the world that it does cause one to imagine that the possibility of our being there for and because of the oil is really strong.
		What do you think?
		It's a full moon hanging over a beautiful desert tonight.
		I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
		Here is an interesting fast blast from BTK in Kansas City, Kansas, who says, I hear these liberals on Coast to Coast with their messages of understanding.
		Frankly, I think it's all bunk.
		Healing.
		Kill the enemy.
		It's the only way to fix these primitives who attack us.
		We didn't provoke 9-11.
		Typical projection of liberal self-hatred.
		Sure, we'll get a reaction to that from John Hogue in a moment.
		It's funny.
		I really understand both emotions, that of considering the course and consequences of our actions on the one hand.
		And on the other hand, I can assure you, when I read about an American getting his head cut off, I'm right down there with the best of them, right there with BTK from Kansas City.
		Kill the bastards.
		Definitely there.
		So, you know, see how they hear you, John?
		You're talking about sort of irrefutable history, actually.
		I mean, if you look at Vietnam, we came to such considerations after due course.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Where did all the body counting get us in Vietnam?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've still lost.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		So I understand the feeling.
		It's like what we're saying earlier.
		I'm so glad you mentioned that point of view because I could feel it seething out there across North America.
		You're right.
		And it needs to be addressed.
		I'm glad I can get a chance to address it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, give it a shot.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		First off, I always find it interesting how people use certain labels to sound like other notorious derogatory labels, which I will not mention on airwaves.
		But if you all know what I mean, if you replace the word liberal or right-wing or redneck with one of those derogatory labels of ethnicity or religious background, you'll see that a lot of people apply those words in exactly the same racist or antisocial way, which is a new development.
		The use of liberal or the use of conservative are now becoming expletive words.
		Now, so that's one point.
		The other point is, yes, I can understand the anger of a person seeing an American man's head sawed off.
		And the problem is that this is part of that punch-punch syndrome.
		I can also see that people, 20,000 Iraqis being killed by American bombs makes a lot of Iraqis feel equally angry.
		And so here's the syndrome.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In the first war, John, to a large degree, we went down the trenches and buried maybe, well, untold numbers of Iraqis alive.
		It was not really publicized all that much, but we raked those trenches with Apaches and then just pushed the dirt with tanks equipped with plows right over the top of the alive bodies.
		We did that.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		The thing is, war, it's part of the engine that makes people predictable, which makes them victims of negative prophecies of half-full glasses of water, is that we need to go back and look at how somehow a little kid,
		for instance, the same person, if he were born in Iraq and if he was conditioned to be a Muslim in Iraq, he would be saying exactly, he would be wearing the black outfit of the Muqtada al-Sadr's Al-Mahdi militia, and he'd be killing Americans who had killed his people in what he felt were terrible ways.
		And this is the syndrome, the nature of our programming, which makes us dehumanize other people and do this terrible mischief with each other, which is very strange also because in both religions that are the bastions of morality of Islam,
		which means to submit and surrender to God, As-Salama, and the Christian faith with the Prince of Peace saying, love thy brother as thyself, love your enemies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there any chance?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		It's strange how the people don't follow their religions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, I know, I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there any chance that we'll get out of Iraq having converted Iraq into a little mini shining example of a democracy in the Middle East?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		If we want it to be our kind of democracy, no.
		It'll be as bad by next year as the Arvin and South Vietnam government.
		We are actually repeating that echo with, you remember there were a couple coups of the South Vietnamese government when we were beginning to get involved in Vietnam, and we had a lot to do behind the scenes to re-establish new governments of people sympathetic to our way of life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, now, did you read, did you hear my first hour tonight, John 48?
		Did you hear the story where the Iraqi prime minister wants to offer amnesty to insurgents, said that He would understand the attacks on U.S. troops.
		Even people who killed U.S. troops would be given amnesty, he's saying, and that they were legitimate acts of resistance, that is, killing Americans.
		He said that.
		Now, I thought that was incredible.
		And I went.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that they did it with the concurrence, you said that with the concurrence of the U.S. in some backdoor deal or what?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, it's another historic dysfunction of us not understanding the culture we're dealing with, not understanding how deeply people feel about their own.
		Actually, it's strange that we don't understand their deep feeling of patriotism.
		And even if it's for their own good, somebody, look, if Canada decided that they didn't like the way our country was doing things, and they got the whole world to invade America, and maybe they were right, and maybe they were giving us a better form of political dialogue and government, and established a temporary government to make that happen, how many Americans do you think would feel good about that, even if they liked the changes?
		Well, that's do unto others as You'd have them do unto you is one of the golden rules of many a religion, Buddhist as well as Christian.
		Buddha said it 500 years before Christ and it's a really fundamental atomic thing.
		It's like if you don't want that to be done to you, you don't do it to others.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But so is an eye for an eye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's right there in that same category.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And the thing is, there are a lot of Iraqi people who feel that even though their lives may be better than they were before in a lot of respects, you know, if you have a program to be proud of your nation, even if somebody is doing it for your own good, look, if somebody decided they didn't like the way you set up your house in the desert and they just came in and changed it, and it was actually better for you, it's none of their business.
		People have to have their own freedom to change and do things in their own good time.
		No one likes to be told what to do and forced to do it, even if it's for their own good.
		It's just a human nature thing.
		And when it comes to a collective level where one nation dictates and pontificates what another nation should be, no nation likes to be treated that way.
		if the people that just can't understand why Prime Minister Alawi would make such a statement, if he did, it's the first time I've heard about this statement, so I haven't corroborated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just broken the news, Okay, if it's AP, he probably said it.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Probably.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		You had a similar thing the other week, just the other week, where the prince who runs Saudi Arabia also gave an opportunity for the al-Qaeda people to basically, in his point of view, come back to Allah, come back to the people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Give him like a month, and then he's going to bash their heads in.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		In a way, I see a similar correlation to this.
		It's a cultural thing.
		It's a different culture.
		They have a different set of values.
		And one of the things that has been historically an engine for us to repeat our mistakes and see them echoed every 40 years in this country is that this country has always had a great difficulty understanding, maybe because of our natural isolationist feeling, has a hard time understanding, expects other cultures to reason and think and feel like we do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, here's an extremely cynical thing for you, John.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If we end up with a regime, I'll use that word, in Iraq, that virtually is probably every bit as bad as Saddam Hussein in terms of the way he, in quotes, keeps the peace, except that he's our guy, will that be a satisfactory result?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		In 2008, if the gas prices go up to $25 a gallon, you will see a lot of people who put on airs of moral indignation about things on both spectrums, liberal or conservative, look the other way.
		Because I'll tell you, there's interesting stories.
		I had a man who took care of birds and other people who are involved in ecological things, but they were very honest.
		It was very frank of them to say, look, if my gas gets so high that I can't drive my truck and do my work and can't drive out to help the birds, I'd rather just drill in the oil any which way I could in natural places or otherwise.
		You see, there's a certain facade of moral indignation in a nation until something that's more valuable to them than the abstract of being moral comes.
		And I tell you, the key in America is that if it becomes too costly for us to sustain our society, you will see the draft.
		You will see thousands of people occupying oil regions of the world unless we break from that and find ways to stop being addicted to this stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There are many who believe the draft is coming right after the next election.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm one of them.
		I am one of them.
		And the reason being, even though people pussyfoot around it, the reason being is, you know, if Kimchi could run our industries, we would have invaded North Korea by now.
		If guerrillas could run our, from Rwanda could run our factories, we would have stopped the 900,000 people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I understand the parallel, but we could buy the Kimchi from South Korea.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		That's true, but we need a lot.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		We need a lot of energy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do understand what you're saying.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		I'm trying to use, for any of you who are insulted by what I've just said, I'm just trying to use an analogy to give you a point that a lot of what motivates all countries, not just ours, and what guides the engine of predictability,
		makes us victims of bad prophecies, is that we do, we are programmed to any means to justify the end if it's for the survival of our culture.
		Because, of course, I mean, even Adolf Hitler used that with Labens Realm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you see that?
		Now, honestly, John, do you see that changing?
		And if the answer is no, then I don't see how your glass can possibly be half full because we're firmly in the cycle.
		Firmly in the cycle.
		We're going to do what's in our best interest.
		You're just not kidding.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Well, the key is in our best interest.
		When the point comes that we can't sustain a life of getting dragged down into other people's oil and other people's problems, when it gets to a point where it just we get tired of that, you'll also see, and I predicted on your show, that in the next,
		by after 2008, in the next cycle of elections, you will see a very strong movement in this country to pull back from responsibilities like this, to find ways to get free Of other people's energy sources that are just running us amok.
		And you will see a lot of America's involvement as a global superpower dramatically dwindle in the next five years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		And that may be a good thing.
		It could be a good thing.
		For one thing, it might teach everybody who's not grown up because they always have us to be there for them.
		A lot of the rest of the world could probably do a lot of growing up without America there, like the big brother that never lets you go through your problems and always protects you.
		Well, then you never grow up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, to some people what you're saying sounds downright anti-American.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Well, it is anti-what you know about America.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		And there again, what I'm just giving an example here is what we spoke in the second hour about how new ideas, innovation, immediately it's like someone puts up a label or someone shuts down because, and I would pose to those people who are shutting down right now, is if you look deep into your past, you will find a point in your life, if you look into yourself, where you were taught like a machine to shut down.
		Because that's a survival mechanism you needed to get by in your life.
		Because if you fought out of the box, you got beaten up out of the box by people who were still in their own boxes.
		So, you know, it goes back to what I'm saying about how this primal instinctive person that we've come out of.
		I mean, when you look at the human brain, the human brain is sitting on older versions of the brain that were mammalian and reptilian.
		Yes, I know.
		And so this new, swelling, new big brain of ours is a new phenomenon.
		It's an anomaly to our instinctive cells.
		And there's a struggle going on between the more territorial mammal and more instinctive, reactive, reptilian brain that just doesn't know quite what to do with this new wiring that's expanding in us.
		It's giving us sentience and consciousness.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, so far, I hate to be the guy with a half empty glass of water, but the reptilian brain right now is beating the crap out of this new growing part of the brain, just beating the crap out of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The reptilian side is clearly in control at the moment, clearly in control.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and it would appear that way, but at a certain point I would also say that friction creates evolution.
		You know, when things are easy, when things are easy, do we do anything to change things?
		Look what we did in the six years, the human race did in the six years of World War II, when there was a common enemy, when people finally recognized that Hitler had to be stopped.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		We did miraculous things, especially this country is an arsenal of democracy.
		And look how people came together, got creative, single-pointed, worked together.
		And I'm saying basically that by the 2020s, we're faced with a much bigger challenge than World War II or 10 World War II.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you see, that was still, though, John, it was a demonstration of the massive powers of the reptilian brain driven toward a singularity, a goal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what it was.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		But it also was a massive example of the human brain coming back on the ethics of what is right, not as what is might.
		And people coming out of people, common good Americans in their normal lives in a country that had two huge oceans between the problems.
		They didn't need to go, but they went.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but the singularity was the goal of winning the war.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but the reason being that people perceived an evil of that reptilian brain that was about to take the world down.
		And even people in the Soviet Union who had no love for Joseph Stalin, who was the Hitler that got away, you know, a lot of people, if Hitler had invaded Russia, they all came together because they saw Hitler as something that had to be stopped.
		And they may have had the hope that because of the freedoms that happened in those few years, that Stalin relinquished a lot of his controls, let religion come back, let a lot of things come back to fight the great patriotic war.
		They, of course, had their hopes dashed and Stalin put the screws on again afterwards.
		But there was a feeling, even in such countries like that, of we call it the reptilian brain, the forces of evil, one could call it, the forces of reaction.
		People responded and rose up to it.
		And out of it also came attempts to try to find a way to sort out our problems.
		For better or worse, the attempt of the United Nations, I hear a lot of people in your audience going crazy.
		Whether it worked or not, the point was that is an attempt of the human brain to rise above the reactive territorial animal brain to make a better world.
		And I'll say this to all you groaners out there, whether you like it or not, just like Smiths didn't like the coming of automobiles, which ended all the horse industries of the previous century.
		The future is global.
		The future sooner or later has to be sorted out by a global government.
unidentified		Better or worse.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		If you got a bad one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You got a lot worse than groans out of that one.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold on, hold on.
		Hold on.
		We're at the top of the hour.
		We'll come back.
		When we do, we'll start doing phone calls, and you'll get a lot more than groans, I guarantee.
		Everything's going to have to be dealt with at a world scale.
		By what?
unidentified		A world government.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think that would be the conclusion.
unidentified		I can only care of what I am.
		It's all clear to me now.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		Remember the Romans, right?
		Well, in what would appear to be, to me, a wonderful piece of karmic history repeating itself in a moment, we're going to toss our guest to the lions.
		I would be all of you.
		My guest is John Hogue.
		Welcome back, John.
		It's good to be back.
		You know, some of the things I'm getting here by computer are, you know, pretty rough.
		I mean, they hear you, and they hear you as all...
		They see you projecting liberal self-hatred.
		Or here's another one.
		You want another one?
		From San Diego.
		We understand why they smashed our planes into our buildings.
		I think his, meaning your bias, is affecting and distorting his views.
		Does he really think that fundamentalist terrorists can be reasoned with?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Does anybody think fundamentalist Christians can be reasoned with?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Gee, there's the polarity that is absolutely necessary for war to continue.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's there in spades, brother.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		And the other thing is, I often find in 30 years of this, I have definitely discovered that when you come close to the truth, you piss off a whole lot of people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's a fact.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		And what I'm very happy about is I'm upsetting as many liberals, the so-called liberals these days, as so-called conservatives from another realm.
		I've been making presidential predictions since 1968, and I am 10-0 so far because the last time I said Al Gore would win, but I also, for some strange reason, know I am going to be wrong.
		And I was right.
		And he did win, and he also did not win.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And President Bush, of course.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		He will win.
		President Bush will go for a second term.
		So I can hear now.
		Oh, there they are.
		All those liberals are now yelling and screaming.
		Thank goodness.
		Now at least I've balanced it out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe, maybe not.
		We'll see.
		It's going to be interesting to see.
		You heard it here.
		First time calling a line.
		You're on the air with John Hoag.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, this is Dan in Florida.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Dan in Florida.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How are you doing?
unidentified		Oh, I'm doing okay.
unidentified		I'm a little troubled with the whole notion about the war being about oil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're troubled by it?
unidentified		Yeah, you know, I've heard enough of it, but to be honest with you, someone would have to explain to me why they feel that way.
unidentified		Has our occupation in Iraq done anything to help the United States as far as the oil prices go?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, but aren't you kind of looking at the short term here?
unidentified		Not really.
		I don't think so because we haven't, like, you know, if we wanted to, if we were like a lot of these other dictators and other people around the world, we would not give them back their country.
		We would seize control of it.
		Then we would control the oil.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		John?
		Well, actually, if you look, let's look at the history about that.
		As we enter more and more deeper into the beyond the Hitlerian ideas, things become more subtle.
		America has been able to get sympathetic leaders.
		For instance, the prime minister or president of Iran back in the 50s, who was also the third largest oil field, when he basically wanted to nationalize the oil fields from Shell,
		and in his elected democracy, he was deposed by the Americans who put back the Shah of Iran to run Iran and assure that our oil resources would flow there, among other things, because Iran was also, the Shah was also a strong.
		I mean, we have a policy of even Saddam Hussein was pitting one against the other of enemies together.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but it's not true anymore, and the Shah is gone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is Iran next, John?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Well, first off, before I say that, in the long term, a sympathetic government, think it out, Dan, a little longer than just what you see in the last few months.
		In the long term, You will see what is perhaps the most rich oil fields in the world, even richer than Saudi Arabia, are under Iran.
		The reason why we don't see that in real petrol dollars yet is it's going to take some time to upgrade what has been a 25 years of degrading an infrastructure of oil.
		In the long-term investment, if you've got a situation where by 2010, the extractable cheap oil is going to come harder and harder to come by.
		Oh, I believe that.
		It is an important thing for the United States to have a sympathetic government, hopefully a democratic government.
		But look, Hoshni Mubarak, who is a president of Egypt, that is not a democracy either.
		So that is somewhat a dictatorship, too.
		And we may have to, in our policy and long term, understand that a more heavier-handed government than we would prefer is there, because would you like your oil to go up $50 a gallon if we did it otherwise?
unidentified		No, well, John, I understand what you're saying.
		And I do not dispute at all that we have an interest in what goes on with oil prices around the world.
		Of course we do.
		But when it comes to this particular, the reason for the war, when we were attacked on 9-11, and what was the statement that our president made?
		First off, that we would hunt down these terrorists and anyone who harbors them.
		I listened to the rant on the radio the other night.
		Okay, you have people talking about how our president has lied about the connection.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		There's no proven connection yet.
		You can't deny that.
		Now there may be weapons of mass destruction there.
		I'm not saying there aren't, but where.
		But where then what's the connection between Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein?
		It isn't there.
unidentified		But hold on.
		Now, this rant was made by Al Gore, who the connection was first made in the Clinton administration.
		Well, they were wrong.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		If Bush is so ready to say all the reasons why things aren't working are blamed on Clinton, this is one that actually he's right on.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		The Clinton administration was wrong.
unidentified		They were completely wrong.
		I do not blame everything on President Clinton's administration.
		I thought President Clinton was a great president.
		I really did.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		I thought he was too, but he also made huge, stupid errors.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		And that was what he did.
unidentified		We all do.
		We all do.
		We're all human.
		I don't blame him for that.
		But, yes, that connection was first made by his own administration, and for Al Gore to be using that as an indictment on President Bush right now is ridiculous.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		What we know at this point, and this is the same with the 911 Commission, is I would love Vice President Cheney to come forth and give the 911 Commission the evidence that he's withholding that will end this silly debate.
		And it's, I think, incumbent upon somebody to give the solid evidence because we've lost almost 900 of our boys and girls there on the grounds of going there for weapons of mass destruction and connections to al-Qaeda, which so far,
		that doesn't mean that they aren't there, but so far, empirically speaking, beyond the liberal conservative issue, there is no scientific objective evidence, unquestionable evidence yet that that's why that that stuff was there, the grounds for the war.
		Now, we can change the grounds and talk about, well, we're there actually for Plan B to help democracy come into the Middle East.
		I mean, that's fine, but that's not the – I know, I was there, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So we've gone to Plan B. Is Iran on the list?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Plan C is coming soon, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay.
		Is Iran on the list?
		I mean, is this only...
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		He basically laid down the gauntlet.
		And it has a prophetic parallel, too, because Nasserdamus talked about a triumvirate of nations that attacked the Western princes and kings.
		He spoke in 16th century terms.
		These Eastern kings allied using subterfuge and secrecy.
		He uses words, to make a long story short, that sound like a 16th century man trying to describe a terrorist triumvirate of nations.
		I've been writing about that since 1994, Iran being one of the nations involved, North Korea being the other.
		And I thought it was very interesting where our president was actually somewhat fulfilling prophecies that were predicted four centuries ago.
		So it could very well be a triumvirate.
		And I think in his second term, the president will hopefully use political pressure, but probably has to.
		He will use military pressure in those areas.
		He's out to end what he believes are a triumvirate of terrorist nations.
		And if Nostradamus' prophecies are accurately interpreted in this issue, these kings of the East will tremble and soon be annihilated.
		It says in the epistle to Henry II, this letter that Nostradamus wrote to his king in 1558.
		And then it brings forth the real bigger issue coming down the road, and that is the breakdown of a friendship between the great northern brothers, who are not yet brothers.
		That's the riddle.
		He calls them friends by using a strange spelling of Dami, spelled demis.
		And he uses it like demi, but it's spelled like the Latin demis, which means to separate and to be divided in half, to divide.
		And if you get to know Nostradamus's strange languages over years, you realize that he's trying to say there's A link between these brothers of the north.
		He uses constellations in the northern hemisphere above their skies, and that would be America and Russia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		America and Russia.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		And that down the road, they are undermined by a Babare power.
		Now, Babare can mean Tripolian or Libyan, North African, and that could also mean Middle Eastern in Nostradamus in a greater extent.
		Terrorists from North Africa, something like that could be applied as an interpretation.
		This is just the first stage.
		It's a 27-year war, and especially when history is moving so fast right now, a 27-year war in this day and age would be like a 270-year war in any other era.
		A lot is going to happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		All right.
		A lot of people waiting.
		Wildcard Line, you're on the air with John Hogue.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Oh, hi.
		I'm on.
		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you are.
unidentified		I have a lot to say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is your first name?
unidentified		My name is Lisa.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		And I'm from San Diego.
		All right.
		And I am a first-time caller also.
		Excellent.
		And you know what I was calling?
		Well, mine's a little bit more personal.
		Is that okay?
		Rather than worldwide?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, it's fine.
unidentified		Okay, because my visions come to me when I'm in my subconscious between my sleep state and my awake state.
unidentified		Is that when it usually comes, John?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Well, it is, Lisa, these kind of things come, yeah, it is similar sometimes when people are in that dozing, hovering state between awakeness and sleep.
		There's a passage into other states of consciousness that can come from that.
		Sometimes people attain to that by sitting in meditation and putting their brain into a theta vibration that is a very calming, almost like if the mind is like a stirred-up fountain, it's almost like waiting and letting the fountain become as clear and as reflective as glass.
		When you get into that relaxed point, whether you're doing it through trance or meditation or you're hovering between wake and sleep, that's usually a doorway where things, sometimes prophecies, sometimes other things, do come up to be seen.
unidentified		Yeah, I've had an out-of-body experience when I was meditating, and it was so wonderful I didn't want to come out of it.
		It was nice.
		I didn't have any visions there, but my visions are strange.
		And, well, when they first happened, my predictions or prophecies would happen the next day.
		And then just recently, well, my mom used to call me psycho when I was little instead of psychic.
		Everybody would say I was psychic when I was young.
		And then my mom said, you're not psychic, you're psycho.
		So I stopped.
		Until recently.
		Yeah, and well, my therapist just recently said, you know, he's encouraging it.
		And so I'm having him a lot now.
		They're going crazy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you having any prophecies with regard to anything really big really soon?
unidentified		You know, I haven't.
unidentified		And that's what's kind of strange is because I've been oh, and that's the other thing about the computer is The mind,
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		the lot of things that we see in that gap between waking and sleeping, or that gap called in self-observation when you're meditating, observing, what you're seeing is a subconscious coming up.
		And we know so little about the nature of what I consider will be, and I predict this, our final true frontier.
		It will not be space.
		We are going into space, but probably in space we'll even encounter this even more, that the real frontier is human consciousness.
		Because there are some mystics who say that there's no box of limits into this.
		Human consciousness to a certain point encompasses the past, the present, the future, and the whole cosmos.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I could not agree more.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think that's...
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		So, so if, we are, The way it's wired right now, it's wired like a robot.
		And the part of us that discovers that robot-ness in us is not the robot.
		I'm just putting it as simplistic terms as I can.
		That in that gap, when you're seeing those things come up, the question to ask is, who is seeing it?
		I've also been involved in Robert Monroe's Gateway program and done out-of-body experiences and had many things happen that has to happen if you have one foot in the empirical side of prophecy and the other foot in the subjective experience of it.
		But one question is never answered by all those amazing things.
		And that is, who is having that experience?
		What is the mirror of consciousness that reflects those experiences?
		And that is the key to breaking out of the robotic programs that are dooming us to appear like we're heading in a certain glass half-empty future.
		It will become half-full when you see that it is that you're witnessing the glass.
		You aren't the glass.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I still, there's a part of me, John, that wonders if you were to program a computer with events and events countered by those events and virtually all of history as accurately as you could get it into a computer and then have it look at the probability,
		given current world events, for a historical repeat of some karmic lesson to be learned.
		I don't see why it couldn't come up with it if you can base it on the past.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		I don't know if I have enough time for the ad, but I think I can finally answer that question because it's or at least give you a way to look at that.
		All of you are wondering about it, because this is kind of a theme that's come up in the last three hours.
		And there is actually a symbol.
		I'll just cue it for the ad and then come back because the symbol of the Christian cross in esoteric Christianity has a greater significance, well, a deeper significance of symbolism than simply being the purported cross that Jesus suffered crucifixion on.
		It is a map to describe what is called the horizontal reality of our linear time and our feelings and the vertical, which is the spirit reality.
		They meet when the horizontal plane of the cross is exactly balanced.
		You know, the cross to sustain itself meets at the exact middle point between the either or, the right, wrong, good, evil, life, death, the dialectic world of the horizontal plane of thinking.
		And most of us in our lives are living in that horizontal plane.
		When Lisa is in that point between waking and sleeping, that's the point, or when someone's in meditation or someone's in a great ecstasy or feeling a great sense of love and expansiveness, that's when the opposites are balanced, and in that balance, you jump, you rise.
		Why is it that resurrection and rising and deepening and all these things that are vertical language used when describing a spiritual experience?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
		All right.
		All right.
		Hold it right there, John.
		John Hoag is my guest, and I guess that's the state you want to try to attain to do what I've asked you to do for tomorrow night when we go into open lines.
		Only the really talented, those who have really made the effort, need apply.
		Short-term predictions.
		Big stuff that's about to happen.
unidentified		Only.
		40,000 men are women every day.
		40,000 men are women every day.
		Every 40,000 coming every day.
		It can be like they are.
		Come on, baby.
		Don't feel the reaper.
		Baby, take my hand.
		Don't feel the reaper.
		Will be able to fly.
		Don't feel the reaper.
		Baby, I'm your man.
		Thank you.
		To talk with Art Bell.
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		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is an awfully interesting way to be able to do talk radio altogether tell you about the world expert on it.
		My guest is John Hogan.
		Tomorrow night, we're really gonna continue the theme as I put out a call for the truly talented.
		I mean this now.
		I don't want guessers.
		I want people who think they're able to accurately predict the future.
		That's what I want tomorrow night.
		And I want to know something that you think is about to happen.
		And when I say about to happen is the key phrase.
		It's got to be closed in.
		Something that's just about to happen.
		If you're a prophetic type of individual, I guess that's one way to put it.
		Talented.
		And you see something coming soon, then tomorrow night I want to know about it.
		So the call goes out to that.
		We'll be back with John Hogue in a moment.
unidentified		John Hogue in a moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This sure did turn into a controversial program.
		Hey, John, welcome back.
		Yes.
		What are you doing book-wise?
		Let me just ask.
		I want to promote your books.
		I told them earlier nobody gets paid to come on here and do this.
		You certainly aren't being paid.
		You've got books.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I have just recently released the first full-bodied biography in English on the life and the myth of Nostradamus.
		The two are intertwined.
		And not only does it look at what we know about him, what we think might have happened about his life, but it also looks at how he made a conscious effort to create a mythology about his ability to predict the future.
		And I mean that in all the colors that that word means, not just the lower meaning that most people understand is that it's just a flim-flam situation, but also from its highest sense, myth is actually about essential history rather than factual history.
		It's about the universal truths that are true in this moment, true 100,000 years from now, and true 100,000 years ago.
		And since he was into prophecy and predicting, he would be more in tune with those essential ideas.
		So not only does the book look at, it's called Nostradamus, A Life and Myth, and it's published by Thorson's Element, it is looking not only at his life, but it does a 500-year chronology from his birth to his 500-year anniversary of his birth, which took place on the 23rd of December.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, myth, of course, has no trouble promulgating itself, but you're saying that he helped the process along.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He actually wanted to create a mythology.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Well, he did it by creating this unique cryptic language that is a wonderful device that whether one makes a career out of making Nastradamas look like a charlatan or makes a career out of trying to understand that he might not have been a charlatan,
		but using a charlatan's device at times, that is being obscure and indirect, is actually, and the book goes through the whole evolution of how he did this to create the situation that 500 years after his birth, you and I are speaking to millions of people across the world about him.
		And whether we are saying he's full of it or whether we are believers, blind believers or blind debunkers of Nasser Damas, one thing he created through this language was that we're talking about our future.
		Every generation since his books have been published in 1555 have been discussing and debating where we're going from here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Again, with the war for a second, John, this is pretty critical stuff.
		Even right after 9-11 and certainly now, the administration, our administration, is trying its doggauntest to foster the view that we're certainly not at war with Islam.
		We've said it again and again and again and again and again and again.
		We're not.
		But, you know, the question is whether before this is all over, we are going to essentially be at war with Islam.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Sorry to say it, but it is a war between two cultures.
		It is a war between two points of view.
		It is not only a war over resources, but it will evolve into a war between two religious ideas.
		It's nothing new.
		We had a 30 years' war between Protestants and Catholics in the 1600s.
		We've had these wars before.
		In a way, and I find this unfortunate and ironic to say, but since this is a controversial show, I'll say it.
		In some regards, our enemy is more alert to what's going on than we are, a little ahead of us in the game.
		He has seen it as a war between cultures and religions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, oh, absolutely.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		And I'm saying this to simply say if you want to defeat your enemy, you must understand your enemy and not try to cram your enemy up your own ideas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that Islam, the majority of Islam yet regards it that way?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Our enemies, wait a minute, which you would define as, I would define as extremist at this point.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		I also want to say that I'm not, it is not a war between people of these two faiths.
		It is no more than, I mean, it's bogus.
		It is a lie, and this extremist on one side is finding polarized opposites, will find more polarized opposites on Our side, who will see it in the same terms.
		In fact, he needs it.
		Bin Laden needs this polarization to grow.
		And he needs a climate of both sides feeling more self-righteous and spiritually inclined for this war to go.
		Because people of this kind of uncreative negative energy need to create a link to the other side.
		It's an intimate relationship in the most negative sense, but a very intimate relationship when two sides get so locked into ideology.
		And I see the potential of us getting as ideological, if not some people already in the administration are that ideological about the situation.
		It's something I was talking about in Messiah's in 1999 in a chapter called From Propaganda to Armageddonomics, which looked at how a misunderstanding and misinterpretation of a line here and a line there in a religious scripture of any religion often ends up with this rather anti-life future where our enemies get it,
		the sinners get it, we are the chosen few, and our reality dominates the world.
		That is a syndrome that's the dark shadow of all religions in their apocalyptic literature.
		Islam, Hinduism, Christianity, pagans, everybody, natives of different cultures, all have this, we got the truth, and everybody else is going to be purified or destroyed unless they follow our truth.
		And that is playing because bin Laden is playing the game of the 12th imam.
		In apocalyptic Islamic prophecies, he is trying to at least hitch onto that myth of the man who's going to convert the world according to the purity of his...
		Well, so far, you know, Hitler also had some luck in the beginning, and it seemed like he couldn't be stopped.
		But the thing that happens is the very intent, the very negative intent and misunderstanding of the spirit that these people follow in the initial stages, it seems unstoppable.
		Like Hitler, it seemed unstoppable.
		Well, but it consumes itself because it's a negative.
		It's life-negative.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but you do have to admit, they do surveys and report on them every now and then about popular opinion in Afghanistan, for example, or Pakistan, for example.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Regardless of what the government's in the middle ground they're trying to walk, the popular opinion is very much behind this man, isn't it?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Well, just like one could make the argument from the Islamic side that the popular opinion is very much behind a kind of extreme brand of evangelical end times beliefs from the other end.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		And what I said, and just to make my point about what I said in 99 is at the end of that chapter, I said the thing that could happen, the worst thing that could happen for us in the near future is that somebody in the Islamic side, extreme fundamentalist, would take up the reins of the 12th Imam, and some president of the United States would believe that he had to take up the reins to fulfill prophecy from his religion.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, when I hear George Bush saying, I answer to a higher father, you know, God speaks to me, it makes me a little nervous because I've heard Bin Laden say the same thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with John Hoag.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi.
		As they say in Al-Qaeda, I slam, you slam.
		We all slam for Islam.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I doubt they say that.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		All right.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		If you can do that in Arabic, it would be very interesting to see.
unidentified		Anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you did, I'd bleep it out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So go on, sir.
unidentified		Just a little variation on the ice cream ice cream.
		Anyway, I don't know if Nostradamus had anything to say about the role of big business in the affairs of nations, but I think we should all be paying a lot more attention to the role of big business interests in the crap that's going on in the world.
		As a perfect example, you were talking about how we all came together to fight World War II and defeat Hitler and Japanese fascism.
		One thing we overlooked, though, was the role of big corporations like IBM, for instance, who actually designed and ran the punch card system that kept track of the status and the fate of hundreds of thousands of concentration and slave labor camp inmates.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It might be so.
unidentified		No, it's a documented fact, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But and I don't deny that what you say about big business, I mean, right now, in Iraq, big business is Halliburton and Kellogg Brown.
		And oil.
		Look, the whole thing, yeah, that's kind of where the core of where we've been this whole hour and a half or so.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, religion and commerce have been the main motive forces for many of our wars.
		It's either fought over our God's better than your God, or it's fought over you've got something.
		In Hitler's case, it's the vast steppes of Russia.
		I need more room, Laban's Raum.
		And then the Western world may, after another few more years of higher demands and less oil, say, we have a right because we're going to use that oil better than you people, and we will take it.
		Now, I'm not supporting that.
		I'm just simply telling you that beyond your own, we all are trained to have a conceit about that we're, of course, always good.
		Even if we don't say so, deep down, every country looks at their side is always right.
		And the other side, maybe we're wrong, sometimes we're wrong, sometimes, but we're basically always more right than the opposite side we're fighting.
		And that is the problem.
		And the other problem with economy is economy by itself is not a bad thing or a good thing.
		Just like the atomic atom is not a bad thing or a good thing.
		One person who is creative and life affirmative makes it light the world, another person blows up Hiroshima and Nagasaki With it.
		Or, you know, one man flies to other wonderful places to discover new worlds and lands, and another man drives a plane into poor innocent building, you know, with people.
		It's not a plane, it's us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Business ultimately is forced to bend to the popular opinion.
		It's got to serve what people want, right?
		That's what business does or it doesn't matter.
		Yeah, yeah, yeah.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with John Hoag.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yes, I'd like to take exception to Mr. Oneworld's opinion about Islam being a religion of peace.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you hear that, John?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Well, you know, this is one of the mistakes that actually President Bush has said, and his advisors should have done a little more study of the word.
		Asalam means to submit, literally, and to surrender.
		And Islam, as I understand the word from studying it, does not mean peace.
		But then one could also argue that Christianity and its prince of peace has been responsible in the last 2,000 years for killing more people than any other religion in the last 5,000, 6,000 years.
		So is that a peaceful religion either?
unidentified		No, secular humanism killed more people than Christianity.
unidentified		You forget Stalin.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		No, that's simply not true.
		You know, half the population of Europe died because one side thought their interpretation of Jesus Christ was more important than the other.
		And Thirty Years' War killed half of Central Europe's population.
		The Crusades, the Cathars, the fact that people who believed in the same God in World Wars I and II worship the same Savior butchered each other first in 20 millions and then in 60 millions.
		I'm sorry if it hurts people's feelings, but sometimes the truth hurts.
		And if we're going to really be religious on this planet, we have to reassess or maybe live up to the beautiful statements of our great religious leaders like Jesus and Buddha and others.
		Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you.
		Love your neighbor.
		Love your enemy.
		That's not being followed right now by either side.
unidentified		Didn't you not state that Islam was a religion of peace earlier on the show?
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		I said it was.
		I don't remember, except it, but if I didn't, if I did, let me clarify that it is a, of course, this is the thing that's so terrible about radio.
		We're going to say in a few words what a whole religion is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've got to in this case.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		And simply, it is to surrender to God, to surrender to Allah, to surrender to existence, to surrender to love.
unidentified		So when Muhammad was moving his army through the Arabian Peninsula at will, forcing one village after another to accept Islam or die, he was doing it peacefully.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Well, there again, now that's another thing.
		He was no more peaceful than the Crusaders that were going through the same area, killing people who didn't follow, or the American Indians of North and South America who didn't submit to the conquistadors and the whites coming to their land.
		You know, there's a whole lot of contradiction you can throw back and forth.
		And I go back to my point.
		I'm simply saying, let's finish with a real controversial statement.
		I pose to you that in the coming centuries, people may look back at our religions and say, in the name of peace and love and God, these religions retarded human spiritual growth for thousands of years.
		And they all had to fade away before human beings could truly discover their true religious nature.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then we're doomed.
unidentified		No, we will drop our toys and grow up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Caller, what do you think?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You ready to drop your toy?
unidentified		No, but I think this guy is kind of fascinated with the facts.
unidentified		And like Nosrdamis, he uses verbiage to mold the prophecies of Nosrdamis.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they do it with the Bible all the time.
		They do it with the scriptures of Muhammad all the time.
		Everybody can do that all the time.
		Actually, that's what I love about the device of Nasrdamis.
		When people point that out, I say, yeah, why is it suddenly such a strange, terrible thing when you can stretch a Nasradamian quatrain, but everybody looks at an interpretation from a certain religious group as gospel from the same even more vague and random applications of one little bit from here, one little bit from there?
		How can you have a religion that talks about submitting to peace and doing what Muhammad did, as you were saying?
		And how can you have Ten Commandments about not killing anybody and seeing all this bloodshed from the same religions?
		It is an indication to me that we haven't become religious yet.
		We will, but we're not there yet.
unidentified		You criticize the Crusades.
unidentified		If it wasn't for the Crusades, we'd all be bowing to Mecca five times a day.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's radioistic and not substantiated, especially because in the 16th century when Nasr Damas was around, the Christian nations were so divided against themselves over the Reformation and the Counter-Reformation, and the Ottoman Empire was so huge, and still they couldn't take Europe.
		They tried, and they couldn't take Europe.
		So that's just historically unfounded.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Caller?
unidentified		I have nothing further.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nothing further.
		Nothing further.
		All right.
		All right.
		Thank you very much.
		Well, I don't know, John.
		I don't think that you're going to see these toys, so-called, drop away very quickly at all.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a good point, because something that helps me with this work, which gets back to something you said in the first hour, which I wanted to comment on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very quickly.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Yes, very quickly.
		I'm not going to be there in that future.
		I kind of got that feeling.
		It's a feeling that a lot of us have is, well, I won't be there to see that.
unidentified		Yes.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		But you know, half the world religions believe that we live only One life, the other half believe we live many lives.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		So there's a 50-50 chance that if you don't make the world today better, you may be reincarnated in your own mess.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a whole nother program, which we can surely do, John.
		Listen, brother, thank you for being here.
		It's a fantastic, it was a fantastically controversial, fun program.
		It really was.
		What a great discussion.
		Thanks.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		So nice to hear you get your voice again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night.
john hogue ▲ ● ▼		Good night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's John Hoag, and that really was, really was a good discussion.
		Love it or hate it.
		It was really good.
		All right.
		We'll be back tomorrow night.
		Only the truly talented need apply.
		We're going to be looking for near-term, very near-term predictions from the high desert.
		I'm Art Bell.

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