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March 6, 2004 - Art Bell

02:52:47

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Jim Motavelli - Global Warming and Climate Change

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	Music From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I
	bid you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be in the world's political time zones.
	We cover them all with this wonderful program called Coast to Coast AM, this being the weekend edition.
	How's everybody?
	It is certainly an honor to be here with you, and lots and lots and lots to talk to you about.
	Tonight's program is going to be, well, I'm sure you've seen all the stories, haven't you, on global warming?
	On the rapid climate change and all the rest of it, well, finally, as a matter of fact, NASA has a report out tonight that you definitely might want to read.
	It's going to go along with a topic we'll be discussing in the next hour called the Chilling Possibility, and it's up on the coasttocoastam.com website.
	And, by the way, if you want to buy a webcam, which is in the upper left-hand corner when you get to coasttocoastam.com, what you're going to see is a It's an evening, and I want to talk to you about this a little bit.
	And that's what I've been doing for the last three weeks straight.
	Outside, playing with antennas, building this giant monster antenna.
	And my webcam photograph right now is showing a picture of just two of the thirteen, thirteen towers that it takes to support this antenna.
	And it is now in finally a finished condition, and there's some pretty unusual things about it.
	It has over 300 volts available with AC and DC components at the feed line point, which I get rid of, have not adequately experimented with sufficiently, but it's there.
	We send it to ground so it doesn't bother all of my radio equipment.
	This monstrous antenna is actually about 2,000 feet of wire.
	And it's on these 13 towers that are 75 feet up and 68 well the tower 75 and the wires at 75 and then 68 and then I know all this is going to be kind of technical for some people for just a couple of moments here but I want to get it out because I want some help with it understanding what it is.
	Now I received a email from a gentleman up in Washington who's going to have to remain anonymous.
	He has a laboratory up there.
	And he has several, believe it or not, underground antennas.
	Actually, underground loop antennas in the state of Washington.
	And I will not identify him any further than that.
	But he says, hi Art.
	I can't say much over the net or the public phone about what you're doing.
	Loops.
	Due to the fact that you're a well-known public figure, you can do what you do with no problem.
	Please read between the lines with what I'm going to say.
	I got excited about your project two years ago due to the expected result that I could foresee.
	The result is much greater than expected.
	You have and are breaking all the textbook rules.
	That's why you can't find any good information on large horizontal loops after 1939 or so.
	Again, I'm being vague and will misspell words for reasons.
	There's not a lot of stuff written about very large horizontal loops, mostly all very hush-hush.
	There's no danger to you in any way because of your mode of operation and use that most people have no understanding of such things and are stuck in their books And you do have a direct line of the general public.
	Your levels here in, he gives a town in Washington, are way above textbook physics.
	On my large non-res horizontal loop earth transformer, 9 feet OD by 6 feet high, 250 turns, so forth and so forth, 4 feet underground, Your level here was between minus 48 and 33 dBm over a thousand miles.
	Yes, he's a thousand miles away from me.
	On my Hewlett-Packard standards last night, check out the voltage.
	And on the inverted B standard, Ham type 55 or off scale, 80% most of the time.
	He said, um, I have one problem with this.
	Anybody would.
	You ought to be running 20,000 miles or more to achieve this up here.
	So, then he puts in a picture of Tesla and his name at the end.
	So, reading between the lines, what I seem to have built is some sort of, he's suggesting, um, Earth Transformer of some type.
	I guess all antennas really are.
	Going back many years to the 30s and the 1940s, There were commercial and amateur radio rhombics in the early days of communications.
	They built these very large antennas called rhombics, which were designed to go from one point to another, you know, from maybe in the South Pacific to the Netherlands.
	And they were like as close as you could get to a radio laser beam, very sharp and very strong.
	But nobody was working on loops, and when you do a search on Google or wherever, and you go looking for the history of very large loops, not small ones, but very large, multiple wavelengths, you don't find very much, because there isn't very much there.
	So, for some reason, over the years, even in the old SparkGap days, they really just didn't do very much, and so what I've built is really strange, It really is strange, and my goodness gracious, is it ever working.
	Now, this gentleman recorded me, actually recorded my voice a thousand miles away from here in the state of Washington, and I'll play that recording for you.
	Actually, it's an edited recording because I didn't want the other voice in there, simply because I don't have that person's permission to do so.
	But this is a recording of my voice Uh, recorded on 3840, uh, 3.84 megahertz, um, actually last night, I believe.
	And so the edited portion is merely where the other station was saying something, but this is me, a thousand air miles from right here.
	Yep, you haven't been around.
	I've been collecting reports here for the last few days, and they're fairly astounding.
	Well, there haven't been.
	Uh, I don't know how long you've been listening, but, you know, Rombix, yeah, they experimented with those because they had And a lot of commercial CW stations, early in radio, that were point-to-point.
	And that's what Rombix did.
	There was no real application for what I'm doing, because, you know, it just wasn't commercially viable.
	They just wanted to go from point A to point B, and do that reliably, and that's what Rombix did.
	Loops, on the other hand, if you're a ham and you're a rag chewer, you know, I'm not a big DXer, even though it does work for that.
	I'm not a DXer.
	That makes all the sense in the world, but nobody experimented, nobody did it, nobody wrote about it, and so there was nothing for me to go by when I built all this.
	So what I did was I just built it slowly and tried to prove it point by point.
	Put up the single loop first, then put the grounding system under it, and put the double loop up, then doubled the double loop, you know, sort of taking it Proof of concept as you go, that kind of deal.
	Okay, that's the end of the Part 1.
	Part 2 is even shorter and is right here.
	Oh, we don't have to assume.
	It's set up at 100 feet and the top loop is at 75 feet, Billy, and the bottom loop is at 68 feet, 7 feet below it.
	And then I've got a wire mesh, 4 feet wide, welded wire mesh under the whole smear.
	Yes, sir?
	And I tell you, Billy, it's been incredible.
	Earlier today, one hour before the sun was fully down, you know, it was down near the horizon, I was copying Spain down... Alright, I went on to say down in what's called the DX window of 75 meters.
	Now, what I mean by that is one hour before the sun was down, And this band wasn't even open yet.
	I'm already hearing Spain over the North Pole and hearing Argentina Caracas earlier today before the sun was even down.
	I mean, just astounding things that ought not be coming from this antenna along with this strange voltage that I have.
	So it's some kind of... Well, I don't know.
	So if there's anybody in the audience with any help on very, very large loop, horizontal loops, And the nature of them, I'd be very interested.
	We're going to get a helicopter and do some measurements, some field strength measurements around it and try and document.
	I've got about, oh, I don't know, four or five hundred pictures on the whole thing.
	And so as this sort of interesting project is further evaluated, I'll sort of keep all of you In mind, in terms of informing you every step of the way.
	But that's what's happening right now, and it's pretty wild stuff.
	And the voltage coming off it, from who knows where, is also pretty wild stuff.
	So we're going to do as much investigation as we can, and I will keep you informed.
	In a moment, a few more things.
	By the way, open lines, the balance of this hour.
	Be right back.
	This is kind of cool, I think.
	Have you ever wanted to take Coast to Coast AM on the go?
	Listen to the show on maybe a CD or MPEG-3 player anytime you want?
	Well, the holy grail of Streamlink is about to arrive.
	Streamlink, of course, is the audio service on our website, coasttocoastam.com, that allows you to listen to Coast to Coast AM on your computer 24-7.
	For like 15 cents a day or whatever it is.
	But, beginning March 12th, users now, I think this is very cool, are going to be able to download and burn MPEGs of any of the last 30 days of shows, in addition to accessing the regular 90 days streaming archive.
	So that's pretty cool stuff.
	They're going to allow it to be, you know, archived.
	You can actually download it.
	I think that's excellent.
	Congratulations.
	All right.
	Reviewing the world very quickly.
	So much I want to get on.
	A water taxi with 25 on board capsized Saturday in Baltimore's Inner Harbor after a violent gust of wind struck the boat, killing at least two people.
	That's the lead story this hour.
	I'm telling you, the weather is going to get stranger and stranger.
	A team of 50 Justice Department prosecutors, investigators, and sports staff on the way to Iraq, beginning this weekend, began assembling war crimes cases against the former president of Iraq, Saddam Hussein, so that Iraq, when they put him on trial, will have the material they need.
	Facing a stock scandal that threatened to shatter Martha Stewart's carefully tended reputation and enormous fortune, her defense team made three high-stakes gambles.
	They let the case go to trial, kept her off the witness stand, and put a defense on that took less time than one of her syndicated cooking shows.
	It didn't work.
	A guilty verdict, of course, on all counts, and a likely new home behind bars.
	President Bush gave Mexican President Vicente Fox a gift to take home on Saturday, has pledged to exempt certain frequent Mexican visitors from onerous new security checks at the U.S.
	border.
	No more fingerprinting, that kind of thing.
	You're going to be here for less than three days.
	The mayor of New York City, nation's largest, says that same-sex couples deserve the same rights in civil unions that straight ones do.
	But he's going to continue, he says, to enforce New York State's ban on gay marriage.
	That one continues to be a big one.
	On CNN at this hour, there is a story about Howard Stern.
	Howard predicts his broadcast demise.
	And it says, actually AP, but on CNN, Shock Doc's self-proclaimed king of all media, Howard Stern, believes his reign on the radio is coming to an end.
	The show is over, he announced Friday morning on his nationally syndicated radio program.
	It's over.
	It's not, well at least not yet, but Stern predicted the FCC crackdown on indecency on the airwaves will force his salacious show off the dial.
	I'm guessing that sometime next week will be my last show on this station, said Stern, adding that he expected the FCC to hit him with a whopping indecency fine.
	There's a cultural war going on, he said.
	The religious right is winning.
	We're losing.
	Telephone call to Infinity Broadcasting, which syndicates that show, was not returned Saturday.
	On Friday, Stern devoted the first two and a half hours of his show to his anticipated demise.
	A change of pace from the usual fare of naked women, toilet humor.
	Clear Channel Communications, that's my company, yanked Stern from stations in San Diego, Pittsburgh, Rochester, New York, Louisville, Kentucky, Fort Lauderdale, and Orlando, Florida, February 25th.
	Company said the suspension would last until the Stern Show met its programming guidelines.
	Stern said, this time they're going to have to fire me.
	I'm through.
	I'm a dead man walking.
	On Thursday, Clear Channel, that would be my company, paid a record fine of $755,000!
	Levied last month by the FCC for indecent material aired on several of its stations.
	And so they've taken him off until he meets what Clear Channel says are their guidelines.
	I have kind of liked Howard over the years.
	I've said over the years that I thought that Howard... How can I put this?
	Howard is a very talented, funny guy, and he doesn't need to use the bad words and the, you know, quoting that story, toilet humor or whatever, that he does.
	He just doesn't need it.
	He's funny without it.
	Maybe he doesn't believe that, but he is.
	And if he just eliminated that stuff from his show, I'm sure, you know, the Howard Stern fans would say sellout, but he doesn't need that stuff.
	He doesn't need it.
	He's very talented and very funny, and without it, he'd still be very talented and very funny, and maybe he ought to take a look at that as a possibility.
	I know, as I said, his fans would probably think it was the big sellout, but I think he would survive because he is really a funny person.
	So that's my take on all of this.
	You don't need those words.
	To make a point.
	In fact, the point can be driven home ever so much more dramatically with a more carefully chosen phrase.
	Let me just leave it at that.
	Well, the reports on our weather are staggering!
	And finally, here's one from NASA, as I pointed out to you a little while ago.
	If you want to read it on the website, you can do it.
	It's called, A Chilling Possibility.
	This, from NASA.
	Global warming could plunge North America and Western Europe into a deep freeze, possibly within just a few decades.
	That's the paradoxical scenario gaining credibility among many climate scientists.
	The thawing of sea ice covering the Arctic, and by the way they've got an actual photograph there, could disturb or even halt large currents in the Atlantic Ocean.
	Now if this happens Breaking out into what I'm just going to tell you, if that current should halt, Europe is going to freeze.
	And we're going to be very, very much affected.
	That's going to be, as a matter of fact, the topic tonight when we have our guest in the next hour.
	And you can read this entire article, if you wish, from NASA, but this is about the fifth, I would think, or sixth major article I had to come out recently about the possibility of rapid climate change.
	In fact, here's a story.
	Geneva, Reuters.
	The world's second largest insurer, Swiss Re, warned on Wednesday that the costs of natural disasters, aggravated by global warming, threatened to spiral out of control, forcing the human race into a catastrophe of its own making.
	In a report revealing how climate change is rising on the corporate agenda, Swiss Re said that the economic cost of such disasters threatened to double to 150 billion dollars a year in 10 years, hitting insurers with 30 to 40 billion in claims, or the equivalent of one World Trade Center attack annually.
	Now this is from the second largest insurance company in the world.
	And then the article goes on.
	So you see, you can bet on this.
	And that's what insurance companies really do, right?
	They make bets.
	They're betting that it goes on.
	Sea levels will continue to rise.
	Glaciers retreat.
	Snow cover decline.
	This is all from the insurance company now.
	And so you can bet.
	that when you see this kind of article from an insurance company it's beginning to get taken very seriously and then of course prior to this the Pentagon report saying in part there is a substantial reason to believe or indicate that significant global warming will occur during the 21st century because changes have been gradual so far And may be projected to be so in the future, but then they go on to suggest that it could get really bad, that the climate change could be rather immediate, and that in the past, as recently as 8200 years ago, it was.
	It changed just like that.
	With the ocean conveyor collapsing, horrendous things would occur around the world, and that's not to say it's the end of the world, because it's not, but we could be looking at Winter winds intensifying tremendously.
	Food shortages.
	Decreased availability and quality of fresh water.
	That would be very important in key regions.
	Disruption of energy supplies.
	Even possible nuclear war between major nations that are defending themselves.
	And they're going to have to defend themselves.
	I mean, it's going to be a matter of eating and drinking and doing all the things you need to do, right?
	So, we're going to be talking a whole lot about that in the next hour.
	I've got so much material I'm going to read, but we'll leave it to our guest in the next hour.
	Should be a very interesting program.
	You know, I had this feeling several years ago, and I hope I'm not psychic.
	I don't think I am.
	I interview psychics.
	I don't do it.
	But I did have a very strong feeling, as listeners of many years to this program can attest, because I said it so frequently, that the climate was about to do, well, stand on its head.
	And I said that years ago, and that feeling has been intensifying, and certainly the news stories we're getting now, now the most recent from NASA, would confirm all of that, at least as a significant And real possibility.
	All right, there you have it.
	The first half hour, I managed to blow away very easily, didn't I?
	I've got one more item, and then we'll begin to take calls.
	So if you want to pick up the telephone right now, dial the appropriate number.
	We'll get you on from the high desert in the middle of the night, which is exactly where we belong.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
	To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll free at 800-825-5033.
	line is area code 775-727-1222. Do talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies. Call toll-free
	at 800-825-5033. From west of the Rockies, call Art at 800-618-8255.
	International callers may reach Art Bell by calling your in-country Sprint Access
	number, pressing Option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
	From coast to coast, and worldwide on the Internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	There's a great big full moon hanging over the Nevada, Southern Nevada desert tonight.
	It's just the right night for talk radio.
	So we'll get to it in a moment.
	At first it was unclear what was going on at the Arctic, but now in a dramatic rescue
	mission twelve stranded Russian scientists have been plucked from an Arctic research
	station all but crushed by a freak wall of ice according to Russian media.
	Russian helicopters had battled freezing conditions deep beyond the Arctic Circle Saturday to reach the drifting Russian meteorological research station North Pole 32.
	According to an Interfax report, the mission to save our people can be considered successful.
	We have on board our helicopter all 12 explorers and two dogs.
	Rescuers first landed an MI-8 helicopter to establish coordinates before evacuating researchers from the station on board a naval transport, MI-26, in temperatures of, get this, minus 39 degrees Celsius, about minus 38 Fahrenheit.
	Deputy Parliament Speaker removed a polar explorer who took part in the rescue, said that the men, for the men it would be a festive return to what they call International Women's Day, and Russia, big holiday there.
	What happened is, the windswept outpost was almost completely destroyed when a 10 meter or 30 foot high wall of ice reared up from the surrounding ice flow and then collapsed on top of the base Wednesday.
	Authorities immediately launched a rescue mission, but progress was hampered by vast distances and freezing conditions.
	This ice just literally came right up out of nowhere and crushed 90% of the station.
	Boom!
	Like that!
	And so these poor guys and dogs were huddled With about five days left of their rations, and the Russian station at the Arctic is now history.
	It's gone.
	And that's quite a remarkable story indeed, but all souls rescued.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Yeah.
	Hi, Art.
	Hello, sir.
	Hi.
	Pleasure to talk to you.
	And to you.
	Welcome.
	Thank you.
	Listen, I have a concern about your antenna, first of all.
	Okay.
	Does it actually make any kind of electronic field or magnetic field?
	Well, all of radios are an electromagnetic field of one sort or another.
	Are they?
	Yes.
	Well, you're talking about yours like it's somewhat intense or something.
	I mean, I have heard on your show before that some of those kind of things can induce Hallucinations?
	That kind of thing.
	Well, one never knows.
	You never know, huh?
	Well, I guess you'll find out.
	Well, if I begin to hallucinate, you'll be the first to know.
	Yeah.
	Hey, my wife and I have been long-time listeners for years, and I'm so glad I finally got through to you.
	Well, I'm glad.
	Can I express to you a theory that I have that I think explains your theory of the quickening?
	Sure.
	I have, okay, imagine A little, let's call it like a macro universe.
	Let's say it's inside of like a little bit of like a molecule of ink inside of a page of a book sitting on your desk, right?
	Yes.
	If those people or entities or whatever were to travel faster than their perception of the speed of light, instead of going back in time, they would then see our Well, maybe that's what's happening in a sense, and it may be, you know, a lot of really good people like Dr. Kaku and many others are now talking about a multi-dimensional universe, and it may well be that from time to time, for whatever reason,
	There is something that leaks through or drifts through to another dimension and these could be all the things that we talk about from ghosts to shadow people and it may explain a very great deal of the insights that come to somebody in a flash but can't be regularly summoned.
	It could explain the entire paranormal field or what we think of as the paranormal field, so science and the paranormal may at some point come to a very happy or will it be an unhappy union.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello, how are you doing?
	I'm all right, sir.
	Listening to your story about the antenna, and I just want to relay the quick story to you about a friend of mine.
	All right, get right into the phone and yell at us.
	I'm sorry.
	So go ahead.
	I have a friend that lives out in the woods out here in Smithfield.
	You know, it's just way out there in the woods, and a power line comes through his property that comes from a nuclear power plant.
	This thing is a monster.
	Right.
	It cuts all the way through the woods.
	Right.
	And he built the garage fairly close to it, a two-story garage.
	And even during the construction, one of the workmen's level got stuck to the side of the building on some nails, and when he touched it, he got a shock from it.
	So what I wanted to tell you, though, is this garage has always had, after it was done, up in the attic part of it, which he uses for storage, has all kinds of strange happenings up there.
	Kind of things.
	In fact, one of his sons said that he'd seen a woman up there one time.
	Really?
	When he was working out, yeah.
	Well, alright.
	See, that kind of goes right down with what we've been talking about, around very large electromagnetic fields, around large electric fields.
	Certainly, something like that produces a very large field, and would that cause or precipitate this kind of thing to occur, these strange things?
	I don't know, but everything and or anything is possible, huh?
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Dave, I'm calling you from KWTO 560 out of Springfield, Missouri.
	Okay, Dave, welcome.
	Great to talk to you, sir.
	Talk to you about your intent here, just for a second or two.
	Sure, go ahead.
	Sounds pretty awesome.
	It's amazing.
	How many?
	I'm trying to get an idea.
	How many layers of coils do you have there?
	I'm saying there's like three or four of them.
	No, there's two.
	There's two.
	Over 2,000 foot wires, one seven feet below the other, supported by a total of 13 75 foot towers, one 100 foot tower, and then down beneath all of this is four foot wide metal mesh, which has been welded together.
	That runs over 2,000 feet.
	So it's immense.
	No question about that.
	Sounds pretty awesome.
	I was thinking that maybe the metal in the ground might be acting like I don't know.
	When you have a transformer, whenever you take the metal inside and out of the transformer, you increase it.
	Oh, that's exactly right.
	I mean, that's what this fellow up at the lab in Washington was telling me, that it is forming some kind of earth transformer.
	Now, this is exactly the kind of thing that Tesla was working on.
	Now, as you know, when he died, they He took all his materials, and they're all classified and secret right now, and for some reason, on very large loops, as I was saying earlier in the program, there's no real history.
	You can't read about them.
	They wrote about other different type antennas, but not loops, and maybe there's a reason for that.
	Well, loops seem to have a pretty high gain on them, so... They do.
	I think they would have had a lot of material on it.
	Yeah, you would think so, wouldn't you?
	Now, you're picking up about, you say, 300 volts coming in off the antenna?
	Actually, let me correct that.
	Now, in excess of 300.
	Now, it's just something that happened.
	I wasn't looking for that.
	I was just looking to make a good antenna.
	You know, shortwave for ham radio.
	This side effect is...
	Inexplicable.
	Completely inexplicable.
	And all I can tell you is we're going to look really hard into it.
	Now that the loop is larger, we've had a large increase in the voltage.
	I'll do a careful measurement and let you know.
	That'd be great.
	Now, basically, I think I heard you say here in the past that you can disconnect it and basically run it to ground and see an arc.
	That's right.
	And more, I think, importantly is that immediately after you discharge the arc, if you're looking at a volt-ohm meter, There is no perceptible rise time.
	In other words, it's back immediately.
	It doesn't just slowly build back up.
	Boom!
	It's right there.
	Right.
	Well, you're getting that right off the Earth's magnetic field there, basically.
	Have you actually hooked it in, see if you could actually charge up some batteries and stuff?
	No, I haven't tried that yet, but that would be somewhere down the line.
	Thanks very much.
	I'll do that, and I'll try and, we're going to, as I said, we're going to get a helicopter, we're going to make some measurements, field strength measurements.
	I'm fortunate, I have a friend who's got a helicopter, and if I call him, he'll come buzzing over here for such an interesting adventure, and we'll make measurements of this, and try and document some of this, so we understand a little bit of why This is working the way it is.
	But right now, if I had to sit down and write for a technical journal and explain the way it's working, I couldn't.
	I can certainly document the reports and what I'm hearing and what people are hearing from me.
	That's easily documented.
	But why it's working is not so easily documented.
	That's where I wanted the help of the audience.
	Any of you who know anything about very large horizontal loop antennas, perhaps even close to what I've built, I would appreciate any information any of you might have.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Yeah, hello, Art.
	Hi.
	This is Dennis.
	Listening to 550 KFYI Phoenix.
	Yes, sir.
	What I'm calling about is, I heard a news blurb, I've been actually trying to share this with the rest of the Coast audience for about a month now, so it's about a month old.
	Ed Dames was saying, had commented that the next nuclear exchange, the next nuclear weapon set off in anger would probably be set off by North Korea.
	And I heard a news blurb.
	It was just one of those things, you know, at the top of the hour on the radio.
	It was a major network.
	I don't remember which one now, but CBS or something like that.
	They were reporting that the U.S.
	had just removed all our soldiers from Seoul, South Korea.
	Didn't remove them from the country, just got them out of Seoul.
	And what that struck in my mind was, well, maybe things are hotter over there than they might be letting on here.
	Well, when you read the dispatches from North Korea, they are frightening.
	I mean, the North Korean people... The North Koreans are frightening.
	Well, they've been led to believe by their government that they're at war with the United States.
	Expect war with the United States.
	And so it's a pretty scary scenario.
	I certainly agree with that.
	We're trying diplomacy right now.
	One can only hope, but I'll tell you, they're crazy as loons.
	Well, it sure sounds like it may very well be.
	I mean, that's just a sign that we should keep our eye on that and be a little, I think, It won't be so surprising if it happens.
	Common sense, you're right, can't rule it out.
	Ed Dames has trouble, as all remote viewers do, with timelines.
	But I really have seen quite a few of the things that he said were going to happen, have happened.
	And we, of course, will have Ed back.
	International Line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi, it's Ted from Windsor-Camden.
	Windsor, okay, welcome.
	Well, thank you.
	The ice floe, the Arctic Rescue, Yes, sir.
	I didn't catch what their experimentation equipment that they were using there.
	Well, I didn't either.
	They weren't talking about that.
	They were actually on a flow.
	So, in other words, the station was actually moving with the rest of the flows, and it almost never happens.
	But some giant piece of ice came right up and collapsed, destroying 90% of that station.
	I mean, it's an amazing story.
	Right.
	And because of that, that's my next question, if any of your listeners might be able to understand it.
	Do you think it's possible that a U.S.
	sub came up underneath and maybe nudged it a little?
	Well, I doubt we're going to admit it if we did.
	Who knows?
	It's odd things happening all over.
	Okay.
	Thank you.
	Right.
	Thank you, sir.
	Wilson of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hello, Art.
	Yes.
	Good to talk to you again.
	This is Mike in Fontana.
	Hello, Mike.
	And I'm listening to you on KFI out of L.A., the most stimulating talk radio.
	The monster in Los Angeles, yes, indeed.
	Yeah, and it don't get any more stimulating than your show, buddy, I'll tell you that.
	Yeah, thank you.
	Listen, a couple weeks ago, you had a story on about if, I believe it was the Gulf Stream, if the Gulf Stream changes or stops flowing, that Great Britain will freeze.
	Yes, freeze, indeed.
	The very same weekend on one of the major networks, I believe it was Channel 2, they showed on a real quick clip that I believe it was London had gotten hit with an ice storm.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I know.
	If you listen to what's coming up in the next hour, I think you'll be up on this.
	That's what our guest is.
	Our guest has written a book called Feeling the Heat.
	And paradoxically, it's going to have the opposite effect.
	In other words, all this heat will eventually bring the big freeze.
	And so, if you listen carefully next hour, I hope we'll all be up on it.
	I'll be listening all night.
	It's an occupational hazard.
	Ha ha ha!
	You heard that?
	Alright, thanks!
	Later, later.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Good morning, Art.
	Good morning, sir.
	Where are you?
	New Orleans, Louisiana.
	New Orleans.
	Alright, welcome.
	And our moon is just as full as yours is in Nevada tonight.
	Oh, isn't it beautiful?
	What I wanted to ask you as your guest tonight is going to be talking about global climatic changes.
	That's right.
	The people of Southeast Louisiana, with our coastal erosion problem, we're very concerned about it as well.
	As you know, they're washing us away.
	I'm sure you realize that.
	Well, with good reason.
	I mean, a lot of New Orleans is under, I mean, below sea level, right?
	Yes.
	And the federal government is getting ready, supposedly, Congress, i.e.
	our legislators, is supposedly getting ready to pass legislation to stop the coastal erosion in our state.
	Needless to say, whatever impact Congress takes is going to have a definite effect on Well, I don't mean to be flippant, but cool if they pass some sort of legislation or law, but do you really think the ocean is going to be paying attention to that?
	Negative.
	Probably not, huh?
	Pass a law against this kind of ocean rise.
	Well, the reason I was calling you, maybe you could ask your guest tonight, I'm sure he's an expert if he has NASA credentials, years ago there was a team of scientists Yes.
	And one of the direct correlations that they supposedly found through satellite imaging was that there was direct correlation between sunspots and hurricane activity on the Gulf Coast.
	Yes.
	Maybe you could interject with your guest tonight and ask him if that's reality, or is that just theory, or is that, in essence, Is there a correlation between solar flares and solar activity and hurricane activity in the Gulf?
	All right.
	I certainly will ask.
	I appreciate it.
	I don't think that Jim, and it's Jim Motavi, I believe it is.
	I'll have to ask him about the pronunciation.
	Motavali, perhaps?
	Motavali?
	That might be right.
	Jim Motavali.
	We'll see.
	Good guess, anyway.
	First time caller on the line.
	You're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	I'm a first-time caller, and I want to know, I was listening about five years ago, you had a guest, I forgot his name, I think he was Penkow, and he wrote a book on disappearing, taking your assets and disappearing, right?
	Yeah, I'm trying to find that book and I don't know where to start.
	Well, it seems to me that you've got enough information right now to go to Google, for example, and put in the word assets and disappearing and how to disappear, something like that, and I'm sure Google will regurgitate the answer for you.
	Yeah, but where's Google?
	Google?
	Oh, where's Google?
	Google is on your computer.
	Yeah, that's the thing.
	I don't have a computer.
	Then you should go to a public library.
	Where they have computers you can use.
	And that's the only way to get to it?
	Well, that'd be my best suggestion.
	Mr. Pankow, maybe you can call a bookstore and simply inquire about that book by reciting his last name, Pankow.
	That would be my best guess for you right now.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi, Art.
	Say, in regard to this antenna of yours, have you tried adjusting the voltage coming off of this thing with a center tap, i.e.
	a potentiometer?
	No, I haven't done any of that yet.
	I was first horrified by the voltage, truly horrified, because I thought it would damage my equipment.
	So the first goal was to get rid of the voltage.
	You know, send it to ground before it got in here to damage anything.
	Right, right.
	But I'm just thinking if you can take a sliding center tap somewhere in the middle and like if you can get like half that voltage of the 300, you know, then maybe slide it down to 120.
	And take a tap from the other side and the other leg and then you have like 220 coming off the field with this thing.
	You could shut down everything with your windmill.
	Thank you very much.
	I appreciate the suggestion and the research will go on.
	We'll let you know what we find.
	Alright, coming up we're going to talk about global warming.
	And the big chill that may follow.
	You might want to read the NASA article.
	It's on the website right now.
	I don't remember In any other city I've been to
	I don't remember In your dream I had to leave this country
	Do you know that?
	Can some people really find water?
	Doubtless I say
	Don't you love her badly?
	Wanna meet her daddy?
	Don't you love her face?
	Don't you love her as she's walking out the door?
	Like she did one thousand times before Don't you love her ways?
	Tell me what you say Don't you love her as she's walking out the door?
	Are you loving?
	Are you loving her for A single lonely song
	Of a deep blue dream you
	To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
	The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
	To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
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	From coast to coast, and worldwide on the Internet, this is Coast to Coast AM, with Art Bell.
	It is, and the national press has been just really full of it, in a volume sense.
	That is to say, words on the climate, stories on the climate, the latest being from NASA, before that Fortune magazine.
	The statements by Woods Hole.
	It just goes on and on and on.
	Five or six really major scientific articles recently on the possibility of abrupt climate change.
	Jim Motovelli is the editor of the E of E, the environmental magazine, the largest independent ecology journal.
	He is a frequent contributor to the New York Times, was author of three books, Healing the Heat, that's his latest, I've got a copy here, Dispatches from the Front Lines of Climate Change, Breaking Gridlock, Moving Toward Transportation at Works, and Forward Drive, the Race to Build Clean Cars for the Future.
	He is a regular columnist for several environmental and outdoor-oriented publications, and his reporting on population issues won him a Global Media Award.
	From the Population Institute.
	In a moment, we'll talk about all of these stories, and whether it really might happen, whether it's total bull, and I know an awful lot of people out there will fast-blast me and say the whole global warming thing is nothing but bull.
	so we'll try and find out what the truth is coming up so right here is jim marvellous
	I hope I'm pronouncing that close to correctly, Jim.
	Yes, you certainly are, Art.
	Good!
	Welcome to the program.
	Great to be on.
	Your latest book I've got here in my hot little paws called Feeling the Heat Dispatches from the Front Lines of Climate Change.
	How new is your book?
	Oh, it's coming out like this week.
	Oh yeah, it says, Advanced Uncorrected Proof.
	I see I've got a really early one here, huh?
	Yeah, we've fixed all the mistakes since then.
	I see.
	Alright, well, since the book is not in hands out there yet, let's see if we can whet their appetites and talk about it a little bit.
	It's a timely publication, certainly, Jim, because, boy, Woods Hole began it, and then Fortune, and now NASA, and the Pentagon report, and we've been blitzed recently with all of this, look out, here comes rapid climate change, maybe, stuff.
	Yes, well I've just disclosed that last summer in Europe was the warmest in 500 years, and 15,000 people died last summer as a result of the heat wave, just in France alone.
	Right.
	And of course, ultimately, should the conveyor belt in the ocean stop, Europe would just freeze.
	Right, you could have a dramatic shift from global warming to global cooling in Europe as a result of these changes.
	All right.
	How real do you think this is, Jim?
	I think we're already seeing the effects of global climate change.
	It's already begun.
	It's already begun.
	It's underway.
	There are massive signs of it in every corner of our planet.
	I think the science is already well established.
	The great majority of scientists believe that global warming is real and that we're beginning to experience it.
	A lot of people don't understand How global warming?
	In fact, they laugh at it.
	And, you know, they use this to dismiss it.
	Well, and it's getting so warm, and how come it's so damn cold?
	You know, very typical.
	Well, right.
	Well, it's one of the reasons I say that we should talk about climate change as opposed to global warming, because there are many different effects associated with it.
	Warming is probably the main one, but we're also talking about cooling, because we're talking about Europe changes to the Gulf Stream that will cause massive cooling in Western Europe.
	We're also talking about escalation and storms around the world, droughts, flooding, changes in ice pack and rain availability, river levels, all these things will be changed.
	By this phenomenon, and it's certainly major changes to animal and plant species.
	Jim, even the insurance companies are getting worried.
	First hour, I read a report from the second largest insurance company in the world, in Switzerland, and they're saying a man made catastrophes on the way, and it may drive them out of business.
	Well, I just visited there.
	That's Swiss Re.
	Yeah, that's right.
	And I visited there, and they have a whole global warming department, and they take it very seriously indeed.
	Obviously so.
	You should read the article.
	Ay yi yi.
	And if the insurance companies are beginning to sweat, then you know there's got to be something real on the horizon.
	Well, again, the vast majority of climate scientists are gathered together in the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.
	There's 2,500 of them, and they've already said that there's a noticeable man-made effect on the climate.
	Against them, you have a very small number of naysayer scientists, many of them in the pay of the fossil fuel industry.
	So, I don't think we really have a scientific debate anymore.
	You think that's really virtually over, and if you want to see it happening, it's all around you.
	It's beginning to happen now.
	Right.
	It doesn't matter where you live.
	That's what we try to get into in our book, Feeling the Heat.
	We went all over the world, and we're talking about places like New Jersey.
	We're talking about California and the Pacific Northwest, where I am right now.
	And these effects have already started, and they're very noticeable.
	Scientists are writing articles in peer-reviewed journals about these effects.
	And we're beginning to see animal populations on the move, because they're very, very sensitive to minor climatic changes.
	Yes, very minor ones.
	Even more minor than have already occurred.
	But in the NASA article, for example, I've got on the website right now, they show the Arctic, and they show the dramatic, scary Lessening of the ice.
	I mean, there's about, I don't know, 40% of the ice gone just very recently.
	It's just going.
	Yeah, and if you've been looking at our book, you see that we have a photographic section.
	They're photographs by Gary Brosh, and he is on a personal mission to document global climate change around the world.
	And he's taken pictures of that disappearing ice and those floating icebergs.
	Yeah, I've got them right here.
	I mean, they're talking about a new ocean at the Arctic.
	No more ice.
	Learn how to navigate and protect the new sea that we're going to have because the ice is going to be gone.
	Of course, that is one of the drivers that is affecting what we're talking about is the possible abrupt cooling of Europe.
	The fresh water that is entering the North Atlantic from polar melting is what is affecting The flow of warm water from the Pacific there.
	How quickly is it really happening?
	I mean when you look at the Arctic that's really frightening.
	I mean you look at like half the Arctic gone and you go, half the Arctic gone?
	Yikes!
	Well we're seeing icebergs the size of Rhode Island floating free and I think people should realize that we're no longer talking about A long-term effect.
	It's not comfortably 300, 400 years ahead.
	It's right here now.
	We're already in the early stages of global warming.
	Alright.
	Jim, here's what I've kind of concluded and said, you know, all my listeners.
	People will argue that it's a natural, cyclical change.
	That yes, Mother Earth does this every so often, and there's quite a bit of geological evidence to back that up.
	Then there's this big fight, Jim, between the people who believe that man's hand has a lot to do with it and people who believe it's just a natural cycle.
	To me, it doesn't matter what's to blame or what's driving this.
	The fact is, it's happening and about to happen, and we need to make adjustments for it if we want to make it through.
	Well, let me just comment on that idea that what we're experiencing is a natural rise and fall.
	There has indeed been a 20 percent Rise and fall over time.
	You look at it, you see a sort of jagged up and down.
	Looks like those things when they do lie detector tests.
	Right.
	Goes up and down.
	And it's very evenly up and down.
	But if you see it on a scale now, you'll see that from the period where we started burning coal and started using the internal combustion engine, you see an absolute straight line up.
	And if you see this on charts, it's very, very disconcerting.
	Because you can see where we started doing this, and the temperature rise absolutely correlates with that.
	And we can tell what the climate was over time, over the last 400,000 years, because of ice cores that have been taken in the Antarctic.
	They are able to look at these ice cores to measure the quantity of carbon dioxide in the air through gas bubbles that are held in this ice.
	We've been able to do that.
	We have a pretty good idea of what the climate was over 400,000 years and there's never been an upward spike like we're seeing now.
	Okay, so you're saying you believe that firmly man's hand does or is playing a big part in what's beginning to happen now?
	I think it's beyond scientific debate.
	But even, I've said to my audience, for the purpose of trying to get the message through, that I don't think it matters.
	Whether it's man's hand, maybe it does matter, but from a perspective of we ought to be doing something about it, it doesn't matter which it is, it's going to happen, so we need to begin to make adjustments to make it through to the other side.
	We have to make fairly drastic adjustments, and it's not the kind of thing we can comfortably do within our current American lifestyles.
	We're looking at fairly drastic changes that may have to be made.
	Just before we began the show, a gentleman from New Orleans called.
	And he said that they're down there passing legislation or something or another, but they're very concerned in New Orleans, because of course they're very low.
	They're below sea level.
	Well, yeah.
	And any rise in sea level would put New Orleans, you know, kind of underwater.
	It's a similar situation to much of Holland, which we reported on in Feeling the Heat, that they've had to deal with rising tide for quite a long time, and Holland is probably better prepared for global warming than other parts of the world, because it's already been on their agenda for a long time.
	Well, that's because the water's already going up there, right?
	What are they actually doing?
	Just building more levees?
	Doing what?
	Well, they're trying to come up with areas where the water can flow.
	And they're probably going to have to give up some of the land they've reclaimed from the sea.
	And they have very complicated seawalls that are able to regulate the flow of water to some degree.
	And they're prepared.
	They're ready.
	They're locked and loaded, as they say.
	I'm not sure that I believe that it's man's hand.
	I'll take your word for it on the chart.
	But even if it's not, we better start doing something about it.
	There was the Kyoto Treaty, and the United States, for its reasons, and I understand our reasons, we're an economy based on oil.
	We run on oil.
	We have to have oil, and if we don't have it, we don't have an economy.
	We sort of turned our backs on this treaty, right?
	We have done that.
	It's possible that Kyoto could go into effect without the United States.
	Russia is going back and forth over whether it intends to endorse the treaty.
	But even with a number of nations endorsing the treaty, the actual carbon dioxide emissions for most of the industrialized countries is far above what would be necessary for them to meet Kyoto goals.
	If you look, for instance, at Mexico in 2010, it's projected to be 78% above the Kyoto Goals.
	Korea is supposed to be 233% above.
	Brazil, 150% above.
	So these are emerging industrial powers that are drastically increasing their carbon dioxide emissions from manufacturing, from adding cars to the road, from burning coal, all the different things that Well, I mean, it's true.
	At one time, not very long ago, the United States was the leading and one of the only truly industrialized nations.
	And now, some years ago, I visited China, and that'll scare you to death.
	I mean, they've got 40 miles of factories I drove past, and semis going back and forth, and the air would make our air look pristine.
	It was awful.
	And Art, it's interesting to point out that their air is that bad.
	without private cars but now they're switching to in shanghai that actually banned bicycles in the central
	city and they're switching to more and more private cars there
	if they're building them
	themselves and uh... i think the air there could get dramatically worse but
	they're also making some Changes.
	Some of their coal-fired plants are switching to natural gas, and that'll make a difference.
	Look, I was in Bangkok, and in Bangkok, the air is so bad that it hurts to take a lungful of it.
	Really?
	And in Bangkok, for example, when I was there, 40% of the traffic control policemen had lung disease.
	So, you know, the rest of the world is now going where we have been, and they want the luxuries, they want the cars, they want the goods that they can get, and all of this is going to have the world burning oil at about the same rate we have been burning oil.
	And so, yikes!
	But the thing is, Art, this is a really good point to make, that there have been reports recently about whether Saudi Arabia is actually capable Of increasing oil supply at the level to meet the demand.
	That's why some people think we're reaching a peak of oil production.
	And after that, prices are going to go up dramatically.
	It's not like we're going to run out of oil tomorrow.
	They're going up right now.
	They're going up right now.
	The price here is kind of scary.
	And this is before summer, the normal summer rise that we get.
	It's already well above $2 a gallon for regular.
	Yeah, and if you look at what people are paying for gasoline in Europe, it's already $5 a gallon.
	Right.
	And I think we may have to buckle our belts and get ready for that kind of traffic.
	Look, if gasoline was $5 a gallon in the United States, our economy would go kaboom.
	I mean, we just couldn't stand it.
	Well, it's because we're so car dependent.
	We're 96% car dependent in the United States.
	Only 4% of our trips, particularly commuting trips, are taken via mass transit.
	We don't have the mass transit infrastructure that Europe has, or even Asia has.
	And we're close to closing Amtrak, which is one of our few public transit links.
	Yes.
	So, you know, practically and honestly, Kyoto Treaty or not, Jim, stopping this or turning it around would mean such a drastic lifestyle change that it's not going to happen.
	Well, it could happen in different ways.
	For instance, suppose we evolve a hydrogen-based energy economy.
	Suppose we reach the point where fuel cell cars are completely viable, and we're then able to generate hydrogen through renewable sources like wind power or solar power.
	If that was possible, we'd have a completely clean energy loop, we wouldn't be emitting any carbon dioxide, and our lifestyle wouldn't necessarily change that much.
	Well, I'm not saying that it's not Possible, technically or scientifically, because certainly it is.
	But from a political point of view, there is no chance of that happening.
	Oh, I would agree with you there.
	It's not looking all that positive on the political front.
	Right.
	So if the world, the United States and the world, continues to move the way they're moving, which is to burn the last drop of oil before it's all over, At what point does the real switch get thrown?
	I mean, I've heard a lot of scientists say, look, rapid climate change could be like throwing a switch.
	Yeah, you might see a little bit of lead up to it, but at some point, click, and when that happens, everything virtually changes from a weather perspective overnight.
	Well, I'm not sure if there's really a point where it's like flicking a switch.
	Right now, we're at the point where I think that small island nations In the Pacific or in the Caribbean face total annihilation.
	For their world, it's like... Already happening.
	Right, it's catastrophic for them.
	Yeah, already happening, but the people in this country don't pay a lot of attention.
	I mean, if a bunch of islanders have to be evacuated because their island's now underwater in the, you know, far Pacific somewhere, it doesn't really register on... Yeah, what's on TV, right?
	Yeah, right, that's right.
	I mean, just some weird little story about this whole island going underwater.
	Oh, well, you know, you sort of, it comes and goes.
	But you know, an irony of this is that often the people most affected are the ones who are least responsible for the problem.
	I mean, if you're accepting that this is a man-made thing caused by burning coal and driving cars, the people on these little islands often are not in any way contributing to that, or not in any serious way.
	Well, that of course is true.
	And I guess that's the way the world works, isn't it?
	In a pretty sad way.
	But yeah, they suddenly have no more island and they wonder why.
	I don't know what they attribute it to, whether they really understand what's causing it or not.
	And again, I'm not fully convinced myself that it's our hand.
	You really are, aren't you, Jim?
	I'm pretty convinced.
	I think you can see pretty close correlations.
	Between carbon dioxide levels and rising temperature.
	And you're saying, what are you referring to when you say you can look at the chart and the spike since man began burning fossil fuels and it goes straight up unlike any other... Well, you can see the rise in temperature closely correlates with the rise in carbon dioxide emissions in the atmosphere.
	What publication could I view that in?
	Well, you can see it in my publication, E-Magazine, because I recently did a... Yeah, I know, but that chart comes from... where?
	I would say one good source of it would be the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which is a UN-sponsored body that Good enough.
	Hold it right there.
	We're at the bottom of the hour, and we'll be right back.
	we're discussing what the climate may do and what it may do is virtually overnight change
	is happening in the United States. And we're going to talk about that. We're going to talk
	Say it again, y'all!
	What is love for?
	Absolutely not!
	Listen to me!
	I despise, cause it means the destruction of innocent lives.
	The destruction of innocent lives.
	Warm these tears, Tears I will never forget.
	Whenever I'm gonna fight and lose them, I say,
	War, War.
	That's what they're singing about.
	the war
	that's what they're saying about and war is one of the things the pentagon report
	suggests we could be in as a result of the climate change when
	who gets scarce in the jury will get scarce and oil get scarce
	could there be a war over something like that You better believe it.
	and that's one of the conclusions of the pentagon report one will talk about
	once again jim motovoli and his book feeling the heat dispatches from the
	front lines of climate change uh... about By the way, Jim, where can the book be obtained?
	Well, I think you could buy it anywhere online at Amazon.com or in most bookstores I think it should be available.
	It's published by Routledge, which is pretty widely available.
	Alright.
	Do you have a hard time getting it published?
	I'm not sure everyone wants to feel the heat for a book like this.
	Right.
	Exactly.
	That's what I meant, of course.
	So you found someone that did.
	Anyway, look, if nothing changes, I mean, I am convinced that this is coming, whatever the cause, it's coming.
	And wouldn't you, would you agree with the Pentagon report, which seemed to suggest that, look, Nations operate in their own best interest.
	Duh.
	We have to eat, we have to be able to get around in our cars, we have to be able to do all the things we normally do, and if that is threatened, if our basic interests are threatened, I mean, after all, almost every president in modern times has said we would actually go to the brink of nuclear war or to nuclear war if necessary to protect the oil from the Middle East That would be a national security issue that would drive us to war.
	Nations... so one of the things that could happen as a result of all this is a world war.
	Yes, and according to this report, we're talking about effects that may occur as early as 2020.
	This is the Pentagon report that's received quite a bit of attention.
	Yes.
	It said there could be, by that time, catastrophic shortages of water and energy supply, which would be harder to overcome and plunge the planet into war.
	And they do Warned of a possibility of nuclear war erupting over this and as you note We've long feared that the fight over remaining oil supplies could Escalate and I think that's definitely a fear now I'm not here to say that we went to war with Iraq because of oil but we haven't found the weapons or mass destruction as of yet and I
	It certainly is a strategic and good location to have U.S.
	bases in, in the middle of the Middle East there, but there is oil.
	Well, couldn't you say, Art, that in one sense we have found the weapons of mass destruction, and those are the Iraqi oil fields.
	If you look at it in the light of this report, you could say that oil is the engine of our destruction.
	Do you feel that is true?
	Well, I think that our burning oil and our burning fossil fuels in the form of oil and coal are the major contributors to this.
	Well, what is your view of the Iraq war?
	Do you believe that we are there because of oil?
	I think that was a contributing factor.
	As you say, I don't think it was the only one.
	I think there are lots of motivations for President Bush.
	Notably, one would be his father's experience there.
	Sure.
	Wanting to finish the job.
	Sure.
	That kind of stuff.
	Sure.
	I suppose.
	I think there were worries that they did have weapons of mass destruction, but I certainly can see where those weapons would exist all over the Middle East.
	I think Pakistan is a particularly worrisome Owner of Weapons of Mass Destruction, and we've just heard how Pakistani scientists have spread nuclear technology around the Middle East.
	You know, though, if weapons of mass destruction were the major motivation for us sending young men and women to die in Iraq, then we have more motivation elsewhere.
	North Korea, for example, which you don't have to wonder about North Korea.
	They have nuclear bombs.
	We know that.
	And yet our reaction to North Korea has been entirely different.
	It's been very, very cautious, very much wanting to negotiate and not escalate there.
	Well, that's because they already have them.
	I think that has something to do with it.
	You have to deal with a nuclear nation in a very different way than a non-nuclear nation.
	It's interesting to report that the Pentagon report we've been talking about actually compares Actually, a larger national security threat than terrorism is what they said.
	I basically agree with that.
	I think that global warming will become our largest problem on any level.
	How soon do you think that the mass American and world public will become aware of what you're saying right now?
	That it is that big of a... Right now they're not!
	I agree that still for most people they're going to switch the channel when you talk about this.
	Yes.
	But I think that will change very rapidly because some of these effects will become impossible to ignore.
	Some of the things we're seeing, for instance, Our losses in the bottom of the food chain, like the loss of phytoplankton, one of our chapters goes into this on studies off the California coast.
	What did they find?
	They found something like a 70% drop in phytoplankton, which is near the bottom of the food chain, which feeds much of our marine life.
	Yes.
	And we also studied, in one of our chapters we visited Antarctica, where scientists are looking at what Penguins eat, and they're finding a loss of krill, that their diets are changing because there isn't as much krill available, and this is largely because of loss of Arctic ice.
	Alright, a lot of people sit out there and say, bottom of the food chain, plankton, who cares?
	We're on the food chain too.
	I understand that.
	Or the penguins, they can't find the right thing to eat, who cares?
	I mean, come on.
	I've got to get to work tomorrow.
	I've got things to do.
	Don't bother me with this.
	Why should I care if the plankton are disappearing?
	Well, consider how much of us eat seafood, and we're used to having tuna fish sandwiches for lunch, and we like to go out and have a nice salmon dinner, or swordfish, or something like that.
	These animals are on the same food chain as the phytoplankton, and already, if you take these delicious seafood dishes, for instance, They are very much affected by this and they're already very heavily hit by overfishing because we have factory fishing fleets under many different flags that have driven populations of these popular food fish into very drastic declines.
	An example of that is the cod fish which we've had to close the George's Bank fishery largely because these Factory fishing ships are so effective at catching every last fish, we've had to stop fishing there to let that fishery recover.
	So, you've already got this situation where many of these populations of fish are stressed.
	Now we're taking away their food supply.
	And phytoplankton and krill and all these things may look like tiny little inconsequential things, but that's what whales eat.
	And so, if the whales disappear, so what?
	Well, we can start saying this, Art, but then as more and more things start to disappear, I think we're going to get upset.
	I'm saying it to provoke you.
	Okay, you provoke me.
	I'm an environmentalist, Art, and this has got me provoked.
	Okay, fine.
	So what?
	The whales disappear.
	I mean, when does it affect me?
	When does it bother me, living in New York?
	Well, I think it's going to bother you the first time you can't get swordfish, or swordfish, the price of swordfish goes up so high.
	I mean, we had that beautiful movie, A Perfect Storm, which I'm sure many people in our audience saw.
	I did, certainly.
	It's a very moving movie, but what it doesn't say is that the swordfish boats of the type represented in A Perfect Storm, they have overfished the swordfish resource.
	Or the point that the swordfish they're catching now are babies compared to the ones they caught 20 or 30 years ago.
	And that's why a number of restaurants have banded together and said they wouldn't sell swordfish anymore.
	Because this is an over-fished resource.
	Now if you add to that what we're doing in terms of affecting their food chain and making it harder and harder for them to find food, I think you'll see how we really risk losing the vast ocean resource. How important
	is the ocean to our life?
	And by that I mean the health of the ocean, whether there's plankton, the salinity levels,
	the levels of temperature from the the melting ice caps.
	I'm trying to drive this home to people is what I'm trying to do.
	So many environmentalists, Jim, talk about these things, but it seems so esoteric when you talk about them.
	It doesn't drive home to people.
	They don't get it.
	That's why I'm trying to connect it to the fish on people's plates.
	Yeah, that's good.
	And we're facing, I think, globally, we've seen the population increase dramatically.
	Someone who was born 50 years ago has seen the population double in their lifetime.
	We now have 6 billion people on the planet.
	The prediction is that by 2100, we could have 9, 10 billion.
	Okay, there's another big argument, and I, you know, for the sake of being the devil here, I'll take the other side of it.
	People say there are vast unused areas.
	This whole talk of population increase being a danger is absolute bunk.
	This planet can support three or four times as many people as you right now, or 20 times.
	No problem.
	Don't even talk about it.
	Don't even worry about it.
	Well, it depends on what you mean by support.
	I mean, one way we could support people is if everyone switched to a vegetarian diet, since we use something like six or seven pounds of grain to create one pound of meat.
	Another way of looking at that is, if you just took the grain we feed to animals right now, you'd have enough food to feed about 8.3 billion people.
	So, if we were all vegetarians, we'd be doing great!
	But we're not.
	We're not.
	Nor do many of us wish to be.
	So, what do you think the world really can support in terms of population before it becomes over-stressing on the Earth's resources?
	I think we've passed that carrying capacity now.
	That's why we're facing what they call the fifth extinction.
	Where was it?
	The five billion point?
	The four billion point?
	Where did we pass it?
	Oh, I would say probably around four billion.
	Around four?
	I would put it around there.
	I mean, you can't give it an exact Number.
	I've heard scientists like Paul Ehrlich, who's a population scientist, he thinks one billion was probably where we should have stopped.
	One or two billion.
	So if you were the dictator of the world, and you stepped forward and made your first edict about population, what edict would you issue?
	I mean, we have six billion people, and if we were in excess at one billion, then what do we do?
	Well, I would have to say, I don't know what the carrying capacity of the Earth is.
	I would say we should study that.
	We should try to figure out what it is and then try to live within our means.
	I think that's always a good idea.
	I think we have to look at the whole biosphere, the whole planet, and see what it's really capable of.
	And everything that we're doing right now, all the effects we're having, causing planetary extinctions and loss of planet life around the globe, Yes.
	Are we really capable of sustaining 10 billion people?
	And what quality of life will they have?
	I don't know.
	It's all a very good question.
	In the United States, we don't have enforced population control.
	In China, they do.
	They do.
	They enforce... I think this is actually breaking down a bit, but they had enforced a one-child policy.
	Right.
	And I think in some cases you can have two children now.
	But it's interesting, because the world fertility, the number of children people have, is actually falling around the world.
	That's why world population is expected to level off probably around 9 to 10 billion, and it actually could start shrinking after that.
	The problem is that all of the population increase, 97% of it, is in the third world, which means that the place is least able to to support greater populations are where they're going to
	be. We're talking about Africa and Asia. Asia is already under a brown cloud of particulate
	matter caused by burning cooking fires and auto rickshaws and you were in Asia so you've had this
	experience.
	I experienced it, and it's hard for any American to understand how really bad it is.
	I mean, it's so bad that you take in a lungful of air, and it hurts.
	I had this experience myself.
	Yes, and so the average American doesn't understand that.
	So we, I guess, have made Some advances, haven't we?
	Because Los Angeles, for example, is not as smoggy as it was, say, 15 years ago.
	That's definitely true, and that's because of the strongest emission laws in the country.
	We've been cleaning up our cities to a large degree.
	The rest of the world isn't doing it, but we have done that, and it's noticeable.
	Yeah, and I think five states in the Northeast now follow the California emission laws and require cars to have very, very clean exhaust.
	You can now buy in California what's called a PZEV, or Partial Zero Emission Vehicle.
	Very few people are aware of this technology.
	I'm one of them.
	What is it?
	It's 12 different car manufacturers, I did a story about this for the New York Times, but 12 different car manufacturers now sell these cars that are 90% cleaner, 98% cleaner in terms of their exhaust than the average 2003 model car.
	And it looks, it's the same car as your Ford Focus or Honda Accord or Toyota Camry.
	It is a Camry or an Accord.
	And there's really nothing to look at that you'd see any different.
	That's amazing.
	With two or three hundred dollars worth of technology, you really reduce exhaust almost to nothing.
	Then why is it not being done on a massive scale?
	Because the emission laws don't require it.
	Very simple.
	The car makers would do it if they were ordered to do this nationally.
	They can do it.
	They can afford it.
	Well, okay.
	Why aren't they being so ordered?
	I mean, there is a step we could take which would have a very minimal effect on the economy, but a big effect on ecology.
	So why not?
	Huge.
	It would be huge.
	Well, then why not?
	All we would need to do is adopt the California emission laws nationally.
	The national emission laws are much more lax.
	And car makers have a history.
	I'm a car reporter.
	I write a weekly car review column.
	I write about cars for the New York Times, and it's been a pattern that the car industry does what it's ordered to do, and no more than that.
	If you've got a five-cent part, and it'll increase safety on the car, car makers need to be ordered to do that.
	They fought seatbelts.
	They fought airbags.
	Even the most minor pollution controls.
	So when they're told they have to do something, they will definitely do it.
	And they are enormously capable.
	So given the Given the order, they will comply with it, and I think the PZAV is a great example of that.
	But let me be clear on this.
	You're saying this PZAV, whatever it is, at $200 or $300 per vehicle in cost, would reduce emissions 90%?
	98!
	98%!
	98%!
	I wouldn't say will, I'd say does, because you can buy them in six states.
	And you know, I even talked to Environmental audiences.
	People who are very savvy environmentally.
	And they know all about hybrid cars.
	They know all about electric cars.
	They don't know anything about PZEVs.
	I didn't.
	First time I've heard of it.
	Why?
	Because, for one thing, the car makers are not publicizing them at all.
	For another, they're not available nationally.
	They're only available in these... Actually, it's only, I think, five states total.
	So...
	Well, they may be fairly well known in those states, and I've basically found that even in states where they're for sale, people aren't aware of them.
	But because in California, if you buy a Ford Focus, you're getting a P-ZEV.
	Because of that, there's already way more of these on the road than hybrid cars.
	There's more Ford Focus P-ZEVs on the road now than all the Toyota Priuses.
	Wow.
	So, people should be aware.
	These cars are having a big effect On the environment, probably.
	What is the actual principle behind what is such a drastic, dramatic reduction?
	Well, it's funny.
	It's not really all that complicated.
	One thing you do is you move the intake, you move the catalytic converter closer to the exhaust manifold, so it heats up faster.
	The catalytic converter doesn't start working Until your engine is warm.
	If you place it closer to the exhaust manifold, it will heat up quicker.
	So that's why when you're going to have a smog test, they have you run and idle it for a while before you're tested.
	Oh, exactly.
	Because it wouldn't work at all.
	Your catalytic converter doesn't work at all when the car is cold.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	That's why some companies talked about having electric heaters in the catalytic converter.
	So that it would already be warm when you started the car.
	That would actually make a big difference.
	Huh.
	Fascinating.
	I had no idea and I bet a lot of the audience did not as well.
	So just getting it closer to the exhaust manifold is going to get it warmer.
	Let me mention another great advantage of the PZEV.
	They have what is called zero evaporative emissions.
	Which means?
	That is the, every time you fuel up your car, Or your car is just sitting in your driveway turned off.
	Yes.
	It's emitting fumes.
	It's emitting gas vapor because the fuel system is not all that tight.
	It's not leak-proof.
	Okay, we're right up against the brake here.
	Okay.
	So, hold on and we'll be right back.
	The book is Feeling the Heat Dispatches from the Front Lines of Climate Change.
	It has begun.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight.
	Bye.
	Thank you.
	Can some people really find... I will push shadows to the way of those who come to me.
	me baby you'll see
	but i'm too pretty baby but i'm
	gonna love you tonight but i'm too
	pretty in my mind but it's always
	too pretty but i do
	but i do but i do
	but i do but i do
	gonna love you love you gonna love you
	love you love you
	To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
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	800-893-0903. From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM
	Jim Bottimelli is my guest.
	He's author of Feeling the Heat, Dispatches from the Frontlines of Climate Change.
	You ought to listen to him.
	He's editor of E!, the environmental magazine right for the New York Times.
	Contributes frequently to the Times, in fact.
	knows what he's talking about and he'll be right back I hope all of you understand that earlier in the discussion
	I was certainly playing devil's advocate when I was saying to Jim, you know
	who cares about the photo plankton?
	Who cares about the whales?
	You know, I was trying to provoke him as an environmentalist and it certainly worked.
	Steve in Lucerne, California says, Art, imagine what a stagnant pond the size of the ocean, he means a dead ocean, would do to the world.
	The diseases the insects would bring in from the stagnant pond, they'd kill us off pretty quick, I think.
	What if the ocean should die?
	And let's see, phytoplankton.
	Leonard in Corvallis, Oregon says phytoplankton is not only the basis of the ocean's food chain, but they also absorb a great deal of CO2 and produce much of the free oxygen released into our atmosphere from the ocean.
	You know, Jim, a lot of science fiction movies, for example, more and more these days, seem to show a future Mad Max world, where the environment has gone crazy, where there's little oxygen, people have masks, and they're walking around, and the skies are dark with pollution, and it's just a horrible future world, and so many times, science fiction is I don't know.
	It kind of seems to fairly accurately predict the future, and that's worrisome too.
	Is that where we're headed if we don't change?
	You know, one of the funny things about Mad Max is supposedly there's a worldwide shortage of gasoline, and yet all these rogue characters drive around in these vehicles and circle around and seem to spend most of their time on wheels.
	Which I always thought was sort of a funny way of looking at it.
	I think if we had a worldwide shortage of gas, people wouldn't drive very much.
	Probably not, but again, the larger picture of what I'm talking about there, sort of an environment gone crazy, that's pictured in a lot of science fiction right now.
	Is that a possibility if we don't turn things around?
	Yes, I think we're already seeing signs, very worrying signs, that we're disturbing some of the basic processes of the environment.
	As your caller mentioned, disturbing and reducing the amount of phytoplankton in the water has ripples all through the water column.
	And that is what we are beginning to experience.
	We haven't seen the dire effects of all of these things yet.
	It's a cumulative They're beginning to add up.
	If you were to make a guess at when we will see the dire effects, ones that will make the average person go, whatever, damn, you know, this is really serious, more serious than terrorism or whatever, you know, get to that point that the Pentagon forecast, when might that be?
	How far away is that?
	Oh, I'd say within the next ten years we're going to see these things.
	The next 10 years.
	So that's not your... 10, 20 years.
	That's not your children.
	That's not your grandchildren.
	That's you.
	That's us.
	That is us.
	We are going to see these experiences.
	We're going to see a very vastly changed world in our lifetimes, I believe.
	Take New York City, for example.
	You're being heard right now, New York City, courtesy of My childhood friend, W.A.B.C.
	So, in New York, what about New York?
	How's it going to fare?
	Well, we have a chapter in our book, Feeling the Heat, on New York City.
	I wrote that one myself.
	And I actually rode out in a sea kayak around Manhattan Island with a man who conducts sea kayak voyages.
	And he showed me where the water level had risen against the sign on the on the dock there, and that's the kind of thing that some people would dismiss as anecdotal.
	They would say it doesn't prove anything, and indeed it doesn't.
	It's just that what we show in our book is these things are cumulative, and we cite a very effective study of New York City that shows some of the effects that global warming could cause, and these include flooding of many low-lying areas, including the New York City airports.
	We've had two catastrophic storms that caused this kind of flooding in 1992 and 1999 in New York City.
	So these things are not unprecedented.
	There have been storms of this type.
	We also talk in New York City how drought aggravates the spread of climate-caused diseases or climate aggravated diseases like the West Nile virus.
	Yes, they're directly related aren't they?
	The climate and these spreading emerging diseases.
	Yes, in fact there's a whole field emerging of conservation medicine where you look at how some of these are spread by environmental factors and in New York City if you have a drought for instance that means that the mosquitoes that spread West Nile prey on people instead of birds because when there's a drought Birds fly off to places where they can find fresh water.
	Leaving the human prey.
	Right, and that's where you see spikes in West Nile virus.
	That's coming out of scientists like Paul Epstein at Harvard University and many other scientists are studying this problem.
	Well, certainly you've got to admit in the last few years we've had these strange emerging viruses that seem to have just sort of come out of nowhere or China or whatever but I mean suddenly they're boom they're there.
	And some of them, I'm not saying everything is caused by global warming, some of the things are caused by the way we live today.
	We travel around very frequently, we ride airplanes, we take boats, we carry species from one part of the world to another.
	Our planes and our boats carry species to parts of the world where they had not been
	before.
	This creates new interactions between people and plants and diseases and that's one of the things that spread these
	emerging plagues, as you might call them, all around the world.
	Well, if you take a quick walk around the world, which I know you've done in your book,
	describe to me, sort of continent by continent, if you're able to, what effects are likely or probable
	as we continue here?
	Well, we could start in the United States, and I think we're going to see some flooding of our coastal areas, and one of the problems in the United States is we have built right up to the shore.
	Very expensively, I might add.
	Right, and you had mentioned earlier The insurance industry is beginning to get worried about this, particularly the re-insurance industry.
	Swiss Re that you mentioned is a re-insurer.
	In fact, Swiss Re is the insurance company behind the World Trade Center.
	It is the one who gets left holding the bag when the insurance industry has to pay out huge amounts because of flooding damage.
	So they insure the insurers, sort of?
	They insure the insurers, that's right.
	So if they're worried, then there must really be something to this besides just scare headlines.
	Right, and they're worried about coastal inundation of property that's right along the coastline, and they're worried about increasing storm damage, because one of the things that happens as a result of global warming is increased storm activity, as well as periods of drought and other extreme examples of weather.
	You mean like tornadoes, hurricanes, just the strength of fronts that come through, the pressure differential type things where you get very high winds, all that sort of thing?
	Right, exactly.
	So in Europe, we wrote about, just switching continents for a second, we wrote about Venice.
	So Venice has always had a problem with rising seas.
	Right.
	And how this has been aggravated in recent years Where some of the most historic monuments, in fact the famous Plaza San Marco, famous for its pigeons and all, this has been flooded regularly, and it's beginning to affect the tourism there.
	The Venetians have come up with an elaborate system of storm gates that's supposed to deal with this problem, and time will tell if it has.
	We already talked about how the Dutch Are certainly getting prepared, probably better prepared than other parts of Europe for this problem.
	Are they really going to be able to handle it or will they be underwater eventually?
	I think they'll probably lose some of the land they reclaimed from the sea.
	People should remember the idea of the Dutchman with his finger in the dike.
	And those dikes are there because a lot of what Constituted land in Holland was reclaimed from the sea centuries ago and hundreds of years ago.
	Moving on in our tour of the global problems, we could talk a little bit about island nations and we sent a reporter named Dick Russell to Antigua and Barbuda where he found that many of the resorts down there have lost beaches because beach erosion is a huge problem.
	That's aggravated by global warming.
	When you have more storms and rising tides, you face losing beaches.
	I also reported on this in New Jersey, where you have large beach reclamation projects, where the Army Corps of Engineers comes in and dumps huge amounts of sand to reclaim lost beaches.
	And you're seeing this in island nations that don't have Army Corps of Engineers to solve this problem.
	I think one of the reasons you don't hear that much about this is some of these island countries are very dependent on tourism.
	if they publicize the fact that they are losing beaches, I think they would lose tourist dollars.
	Obviously.
	Yeah.
	Alright, what about these... we've had dead areas of ocean that have begun to appear.
	That's pretty freaky too, where within like 200 miles of a certain spot, the entire ocean is dead.
	Nothing.
	And one way that manifests itself is what's called coral bleaching, which means that vast areas of formerly very colorful coral reefs have bleached and turned white.
	They turn wedding cake white.
	As a result of what?
	As a result of warmer water.
	Coral is very, very sensitive to climate change and to warmer water, and a temperature of just one or two degrees Fahrenheit warmer can affect this change.
	And it doesn't necessarily mean the coral is dead.
	It can recover from A single episode of coral bleaching, but repeated incidents.
	But they are finding dead areas of ocean, and I don't just mean coral, I mean fish or anything else.
	Plankton, all dead.
	Right, right.
	And again, the balance in the sea is very delicate.
	And when you lose coral, you lose whole undersea systems.
	So you're saying the rest of the things, like fish and all the rest, are that dependent on the coral?
	Yeah, let me give you an example of something we did in California.
	Our chapter by Orna Isaacson on California looks at what's called tide pools, these little pools of water left by the tide going in and out.
	Yes.
	In the 1930s, there was a study done of a tide pool there in Monterey, California, and the scientists pounded two brass bolts into the rocks there.
	And then studied and noted every animal that existed in the tide pool at that time.
	So we have a very effective record of what was there then.
	Right.
	The scientists recently repeated this study.
	They found the two brass bolts and they studied everything that was between there.
	And they found that the ocean community there, the tide pool community, had shifted dramatically.
	And what they were seeing in the tide pool were formerly southern species that had migrated North.
	And the northern species were just not there.
	Oh, that's odd.
	That had been there.
	And at the same time, they took off.
	They had taken off.
	And at the same time we're seeing large game fish like marlin, tarpon, not tarpon, but we're seeing fish like marlin that are formally associated with warm water appearing off the California coast.
	Huh.
	Another odd thing that was reported in the last couple of years By swimmers and by surfers.
	Going into water that had normally been reasonably warm was suddenly and inexplicably ice cold.
	Radically, profoundly colder than it had been before.
	And there were quite a number of reports of this all up and down the eastern seaboard.
	Yeah, and if you and I go in the water and it's cold we just say ouch and we get out.
	But this is not something that fish can do.
	That's true, that's true.
	They are forced to migrate and as I said much earlier in the show, we're seeing species move and showing up in other places and earlier we talked about diseases, we talked about how diseases are spread through mosquitoes.
	I was just in Hawaii and I wasn't reporting on global warming there, I just happened to be there and I talked to someone who's an expert on Hawaii's native birds, and these are disappearing at a very rapid rate.
	Hawaii has 40% of all the endangered species in the U.S., and many of them are on the brink of extinction.
	And there's this lovely bird down there called the iwi, which is this beautiful red bird that has a curved beak that's designed to suck nectar out of native plants there.
	It's evolved over thousands of years for this.
	And they are now severely threatened.
	But what's happened is there's a bird disease there called avian malaria that's spread by mosquitoes.
	And formerly the birds were protected because they live in the high mountains and the mosquitoes did not go that far north.
	That's changing as the temperature warms and the mosquitoes are moving up the coast and beginning to Infect the birds.
	That's an example of climate change, one I found out after I wrote the book.
	Isn't that something?
	Yeah.
	And again, I'm forced to say, all right, fine.
	What does this mean to people in Hawaii or anywhere else?
	What's the bigger meaning for us of all of this?
	Well, I always say that, you know, extinct is forever.
	We will never get these species back.
	When this little bird that evolved over Hundreds of thousands of years to have this beautifully curved beak to eat this nectar from this native plant disappears.
	We can't recreate it.
	Some people think... I know, but a lot of people will say, who the hell cares?
	Yeah, you know, so it's gone.
	The nectar-sucking bird is gone.
	What does it mean?
	What does it mean?
	Yes.
	It means that we're having a profound effect on our environment in a way that we The human race has always affected its environment from the time we first appeared.
	We had deforested the United States within a couple hundred years of arriving here.
	We change our environment the way no other species does, but I think our effect on the environment is accelerating dramatically because of climate change.
	And the ultimate effect on somebody in New York City, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, you know, major cities, what?
	Are they going to be hungry?
	Are they going to be starving?
	Are they going to be without goods and services they can buy eventually?
	Where is it going?
	Well, for one thing, right now we're using oil to produce food.
	I mean, a great deal of the oil we produce.
	There was just an excellent article on this in Harper's Magazine.
	A lot of the oil we produce is used to create the food we use.
	If we get to the point where we realize we can't keep using oil at the rate that we are currently doing it because of the effect on climate and also because oil is a finite resource that is beginning to get scarce.
	I don't think it's about to run out, but it is getting scarce.
	If we find that, we're going to have to figure out new ways of raising food.
	We can't use the Highly fuel-dependent, oil-dependent means of raising food.
	We're going to have to come up with a more sustainable model and we know that we're going to have to switch from an oil-based economy.
	There's nine different reasons why that is so.
	When do you think we will have to begin that change in order to continue without massive disruption?
	I think we should be doing it now.
	I think we should have enacted the Kyoto Treaty.
	And even that is only a very little thing.
	It's a little thing.
	It's a start.
	Well, we didn't do that.
	We walked away from Kyoto.
	And moreover, we're continuing in our same ways.
	Now, that's just the way it is, and it's that way because, basically, of politics.
	Listen, stay where you are.
	We're at the break point.
	When we come back, that's where we'll pick up.
	And no, we're not anti-Bush.
	i don't like president bush but we've got to get underway and get moving on certain
	things uh... or else
	the and
	and the
	the you
	Run in the shadow of damn the love, damn the lies Break the silence, damn the dark, damn the lies
	And if you don't love me now, you'll never love me again I can't feel the pain, I can never make the change
	And if you don't love me now, you'll never love me again I can't feel the pain, I can never make the change
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	Art Bell.
	I wonder if that's what we've done.
	You know, break the chain.
	Cynthia in Newburgh, Indiana says, hey, our top news story during the break was 100 mile
	an hour wins in Denver, Colorado.
	She heard that, she says, on ABC.
	i don't know if it's true but if it is it wouldn't surprise me
	you know inevitably i'm sure this will sound like an anti-bush uh... statement
	It's not really.
	I'm a libertarian.
	You know, President Bush is alright.
	Even with regard to the Iraq War, if he did that for oil, I said that shockingly on a previous show, you know, he did it in our best interest, which is what you would expect a U.S.
	President to do, act in the best interests of the people that he governs.
	I mean, that's what a President does, right?
	I think he's doing that.
	However, you know, you just can't talk about this topic ultimately without talking about politics.
	And the Bush administration, of course, is thought to be an oil administration.
	There's lots in family.
	And, you know, it's just one of those things.
	And I guess they are to some degree.
	They have not been real warm with regard to the Kyoto Treaty or anything else that would have an impact on oil consumption, have an impact on our economy, and rightfully so.
	Presidents are elected and tossed out of office based on economic performance.
	So obviously things that would degrade economic performance are not good!
	So that tells you, I guess, why they're acting in the way they're acting.
	You want to give me your take on this, Jim?
	Well, I can understand why presidents are worried about the economic effect of global warming.
	Certainly, it has the potential to be catastrophic.
	But it has the potential to be catastrophic whether we do something about it or even if we don't.
	And I think the long-term effects, if we don't do anything, are much greater I think we should be looking at solar power.
	I think we should be looking at wind power.
	and people like Lester Brown of the World Watch Institute have outlined how
	many of the sustainable changes we could make actually have net economic positives.
	I think we should be looking at solar power, I think we should be looking at
	wind power, I think we should be looking at a hydrogen energy economy fueled by
	these technologies. But we're not. We're not.
	We're not doing any of that, really.
	I've heard the President give some lip service to hydrogen, wind, and solar are almost unmentionable words at the White House.
	Exactly.
	President Bush has talked a lot about hydrogen and mentioned it in his State of the Union address, and he sees us as switching to a hydrogen-based energy economy.
	I think one of the problems is he's talking about using coal technology and also nuclear technology to generate hydrogen.
	I'm less than saying one about that.
	Well, is it true that to produce the hydrogen cells with fossil fuels or byproducts thereof would be as damaging probably to our ecology as what we're doing now are pretty close?
	Well you could say that because we haven't yet developed The most efficient ways of generating hydrogen.
	The problem is not really the way the cells work.
	It's getting the hydrogen to power the cells.
	Right.
	And that is still a challenge.
	That's why the hydrogen energy economy is still 20 years off.
	Because we don't really see ways to do that.
	But wait a minute.
	20 years?
	20 years is roughly the time frame you gave me for when real catastrophic things begin to happen.
	That's why I'm not sitting up here able to pontificate and say we have all the answers and we have a good way to stop global warming.
	I mean, scientists say that if we stopped emitting carbon dioxide tomorrow, even if we did that, we'd still have climate effects for 300 to 500 years.
	And I find that a very depressing statistic.
	It is depressing!
	Because it means we're not going to avoid global warming, no matter what we do.
	It's coming.
	So then, what should we do?
	I mean, should we begin moving people who live in New Orleans and other places like that out of the way of catastrophe?
	Or, I mean, what do we do?
	I think we have to begin to do what the Dutch are doing.
	Actually prepare for it.
	To see ourselves as all living below sea level.
	Well, we have lots of people with fat fingers.
	You know, for the dykes.
	That's right.
	Well, I think we're all going to be in that position.
	So, politics again for a minute.
	Drag you back there.
	What about the current presidential race?
	I mean, there were a number of contenders for the Democrat ticket.
	Now it looks like it's just Kerry, and it's going to be Kerry.
	And is it going to be an issue?
	Is Kerry going to make it an issue?
	Are we going to hear a lot of climate talk and this sort of thing in the coming presidential election, or uh-uh?
	You know, it amazed me that it didn't become more of an issue in the 2000 race because, as you may know, Al Gore wrote a book on climate change.
	He stayed away from it?
	He did.
	That was curious to me.
	I think he should have made it more of an issue because it was more of a difference between him and President Bush.
	Sure.
	I think in the 2004 race, if you look at John Kerry's environmental record, it's very good.
	He's a very solid He did, however, vote against the Kyoto Treaty.
	Perhaps he regrets that vote now.
	I'm not sure.
	But the Kyoto Treaty was not supported by a majority in the U.S.
	Senate.
	I know.
	Do you think it's going to be an issue?
	I think it will be an issue this year.
	I think because we are seeing more climate effects.
	Also, I think there's a stark difference between John Kerry and President Bush on environmental issues.
	Generally, if you look at polls, I think the reason politicians, particularly in national races, don't emphasize the environment so much is polls show this is not the primary concern of voters.
	Yes.
	It's maybe the third or fourth concern.
	Well, remember I was asking you, when will it be the first concern?
	I think when we see dramatic changes and dramatic damage caused by Global warming and scientists definitively connect the events with that.
	Because scientists are very cautious people.
	And since there are many different effects underway, every time there's a storm or a flood, you can't point at that and say, that was caused by global warming.
	I don't do that.
	Scientists don't do that.
	There are many different causes of it.
	But I think when we see these things, cumulatively creating A very dramatic, different climate and a different picture for the world.
	And we see the kind of disruptions that the Pentagon report we were talking about earlier sees in just 20 years.
	I think there'll be no doubt that we have massively altered the Earth's climate.
	Alright, well speaking of movies and media that predict the future in science fiction or something like it, There is a movie coming out shortly called The Day After Tomorrow and you had on your list to ask you about The Day After Tomorrow.
	I didn't put it there.
	I didn't suggest it to you.
	In fact, you were quite surprised when you heard The Day After Tomorrow was based on my book The Coming Global Superstorm.
	Yeah, that's very interesting because I've heard about that movie and I saw a feature on it in the New York Times.
	Yes.
	And I'd like to know more.
	I know it posits a An abrupt cooling period, and I'd like to know more about it and who's in it and all that kind of stuff.
	Well, if you watch the trailer, I think the very end of it says something like, save as many as you can, and in the background there's a picture of New York City with icicles hanging from it, virtually.
	Well, I don't think that's a far-off scenario.
	I mean, when we talk about effects on Western Europe, If we look at the northeastern United States, northern parts of the northeast, they're not that far off in latitude from Western Europe.
	So, some of the same effects that affect Europe could be affecting parts of the United States.
	Okay, Europe.
	Let's go back there for a second.
	If Europe, which is at the same rough latitude, I think, as Labrador, takes on, you know, if this current quits and it takes on the same climate as Labrador, what's going to happen to Europe?
	I mean, they're going to suddenly have a gigantic need for, unless all the Europeans are going to move to Northern Africa or something, they're going to need a lot of coal and oil and Ways to heat and stay alive, because they're going to be frozen there, right?
	Right, and they don't have themselves that kind of natural resources.
	They do have some coal resources.
	Obviously, England has massive coal resources.
	They don't have oil, except in the North Sea.
	They have some oil resources.
	Certainly, they would be dramatically unprepared for that kind of climatic shift.
	Also, it would hugely affect the agricultural cycle.
	And their ability to produce food.
	Yes, well, this last summer alone showed how unprepared they were.
	That much heat, and look how many dead.
	Yeah, in just France alone, 15,000 people died.
	I think it was 19,000 people across Europe and in other parts of the world.
	You know, they literally don't believe that.
	A lot of people don't believe that.
	That's a staggering statistic.
	That many thousands dead just from the heat.
	Well, this was the warmest summer in 500 years in Europe.
	This was just reported in the journal Science.
	And this is part of a pattern for the last 20 or 30 years of increasingly warm summers in Europe.
	And again, you can have natural fluctuations, you have freak heat waves and warm summers throughout recorded history.
	That in itself is not new.
	But when you have a pattern that is so consistent, and that is what we're beginning to see, we keep having year after year, The second warmest year on record, or the third warmest.
	I know.
	I think everybody's seen those headlines on CNN.
	They're there all the time.
	Almost every year.
	Yeah, record here, record there.
	No question about it.
	All the time.
	So it's underway.
	Do you expect to see radically more severe storms become the norm?
	Yes, I think that's definitely part of the climatic picture that is predicted by scientists that's discussed in the Pentagon report.
	It's part of the peer-reviewed science that we will see storms like this, and we're already seeing aggravated storms and flooding, particularly in the hurricane zones.
	And we report this in our book, Feeling the Heat, when we talk about Antigua and Barbuda, which are in the hurricane zone, that they've just seen dramatic increases in hurricane activity as a result Just over the last 10-15 years.
	What actually made you decide to write this book?
	Well, the genesis of it was in 1999 or early 2000, I'd begun to see many anecdotal reports of climate effects underway.
	I'm the editor of E!
	The Environmental Magazine, based in Connecticut, and we receive press releases from many different sources from Varied as the BBC to Science and Nature magazine and news agencies, all kinds of different things.
	And there seemed to be a lot of reports not connected to each other indicating that changes in the climate were underway.
	Now most of the previous books that had been written on climate change are debating the science and the science is very There's many different factors, and the books have charts and arrows and circles and graphs, and the average person can't really follow them.
	That's one of the reasons that climate change hasn't really impacted on the public consciousness very much.
	So I began to see that there might be an article for E!
	in visiting parts of the world where the climate was already changing.
	So at that time, With a grant from the Goldman Foundation, we were able to send reporters all over the world to China, to India, to Fiji.
	Yeah, that's a pretty big undertaking.
	Yeah, it was.
	So we did that and produced an article for E!
	Magazine in 2000.
	And then it seemed to me that this was too big a topic.
	And of course, the reports continued after we'd done the article.
	And I began to think that we could turn it into a book.
	Also, I thought we really should illustrate this as much as possible.
	All right.
	Question for you.
	You mentioned a non-connection between different areas of science.
	For example, disease.
	Or the oceans dying off?
	Or phytoplankton going away?
	Or storms, more frequent storms?
	In other words, all of this information that should be correlated and connected for some reason, is not being connected, and you say that's one of the reasons awareness hasn't dawned on the American people.
	How do we get them connected?
	Is it laziness on the part of the media, which doesn't understand enough of the problem to be connecting these, or what?
	Well, the media doesn't always look at the big picture of things.
	For instance, they might report that 15,000 people died last summer in France, but they won't really speculate on the cause for that exactly except to say that
	it was a heat wave exactly that doesn't tell anybody anything I mean heat
	waves are a normal part of
	human history no but but presumably somebody could write about what happened in France the changing weather
	conditions the situation with the ocean
	the air quality in China and most of Asia and and begin to connect all of this into a here's what's
	happening look at all this different stuff but they're not doing that
	Well we did it.
	That's what Feeling the Heat is.
	Yeah, exactly.
	We went all over the world, we got this information, we put it together.
	All of this stuff is based on either our own direct observation or the scientific literature.
	It's just that as a editor and as a reporter I can put this in ways that you can understand it.
	You can follow it, which has always been a problem with the literature on climate change.
	It's very complex.
	These scientists talk to each other, and a lot of this information comes out in scientific conferences where they have their little PowerPoint displays, but that doesn't mean it reaches the public.
	My idea was to really get this Well, here's a question for you, Jim.
	You write, for example, the prestigious New York Times.
	When you go to them with a story of this magnitude, for example, is it warmly greeted by the Times, or are they sensitive to the possible political implications of what you're saying?
	Well, I've written many stories for the Times that have environmental implications.
	I haven't done climate stories.
	for them and I've never approached them with that so how they would react to it is
	unsure. The Times has never turned me down on an environmental story for
	fear of how sensitively it would be.
	Well if you were to write a pretty tough article on climate change and take it to
	the New York Times on climate change and the implications of it and all the rest and doing some of this
	connection do you think they would accept it?
	I would hope so.
	I don't know.
	Maybe I should try that and see.
	I mean, you're right.
	Some of these things have broad implications for policy that people don't want to address.
	Yes, they certainly do.
	Very, very broad.
	Affecting the entire economy, political futures, political careers, and all the rest of it.
	I mean, this is serious stuff.
	I think President Bush's aide said something about the sacred American way of life.
	There you are.
	It's not like I'm not part of that.
	I'm a consumer.
	I'm a very enthusiastic participant in the American way of life.
	I like the American way of life.
	Me, too.
	I don't want to see it disrupted, either.
	Me, too.
	The sacred American way of life is true.
	It's grilling on the grill in your apron in the summer.
	Yeah, that's it all right.
	Going bowling.
	I mean, it's all these things.
	I love all this stuff.
	Yeah, so do I. It's a great life we have, and is it sustainable?
	That's the big question.
	I mean, grilling on your barbecue in the summer is using charcoal briquettes that produces global warming gas.
	So, in some ways it isn't.
	Isn't sustainable.
	So, when do you think the American dream, as we know it, is no longer in practice sustainable?
	Meaning the changes will be all around us.
	You think 20 years?
	Well, I like to stay optimistic, Art, and see that we're going to evolve.
	We are going to evolve as a species, and we're going to develop sustainability.
	We're going to be able to figure out ways of preserving some semblance of the American Lifestyle without harming the atmosphere, without generating carbon dioxide.
	I think if you look at the great sweep of human history, you'll end up seeing that the age of oil will be a very short time.
	Indeed.
	All right.
	Well, that's way optimistic.
	No question about it.
	Stand by.
	We're at the top of the hour.
	When we come back, we'll go to the phones.
	We'll see what all of you have to say.
	so let's rock
	the Can some people really?
	When I was young, it seemed that life was so wonderful, a miracle, oh, it was beautiful, magical.
	And all the birds in the trees, they'd be singing so happily, oh, joyfully, oh, they'd be watching me.
	Then they sent me away to teach me how to be sensible, logical, oh, responsible, practical.
	Then they showed me a world where I could be so dependable, oh, clinical, oh, intellectual, cynical.
	Thank you for watching.
	Don't you see?
	Please tell me what to do.
	I know it sounds absurd.
	Tell me what to do I know it sounds absurd
	Please tell me who I am I said, what would you say
	I'll be calling you a radical A liberal
	Oh, a magical criminal Now won't you sign us a name
	We'd like to be your acceptable Respectable
	Oh, pretendable A magical
	Tactics, baby, yeah To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code
	7.
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
	To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll free at 800-825-5033.
	line is area code 775-727-1222. To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free
	at 800-825-5033. From west of the Rockies, call Art at 800-618-8255.
	International callers may reach Art Bell by calling your in-country Sprint Access
	number, pressing option 5, and 800-893-0903. From coast to coast and worldwide on the
	internet, this is Coast to Coast AM Huh.
	That was funny, uh, during the break the lady called and said, hey Art, why do you keep apologizing for what you're going to say about President Bush?
	Why don't you just let him have it?
	Well, I'm not a Bush hater.
	I'm not.
	I like President Bush in most ways, and I think he's trying to do what he thinks is best for America.
	I just don't agree with his environmental policies at all.
	But otherwise, I think he's a president trying to do the best for us, in his opinion.
	I do believe that.
	So I'm not one of those Bush haters out there.
	I'm just not going to be.
	we'll be right back once again uh... jim mott of l a and listen to you can get
	his book which is called uh...
	uh... feeling the heat dispatches from the front lines of climate change
	uh... probably just about anywhere right now and i would suggest that you do
	It's all about what's happening now.
	And, Jim, this perhaps will interest you.
	It's Tom from New York City.
	And it's pretty typical of what you get when you get off on these topics.
	It says, Jim's scientific analysis comes from his political ideology.
	His political ideology doesn't come from scientific analysis.
	His belief of how we should live comes from anti-capitalism more than from dispassionate research.
	Or, I could be wrong.
	Well, he is wrong, because everything in our book is completely based on what we call peer-reviewed science, which means that it appears in scientific journals.
	The material has been vetted by other scientists.
	This is the best scientific literature we have in the world.
	The book is not a political book.
	I don't think the word Bush appears in it.
	It is not about that.
	It is about observable climate effects and These are the best things we can see, and we report what scientists say about them.
	And to say that that's political ideology... It just inevitably will come across to people that way, because they know what it means.
	All right, let's try the phone and see what we get.
	Well, denial is more than a river in Egypt.
	Yes.
	First time caller line, you're on the air with Jim Motovelli.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Hey, Jim and Art, thank you very much for the work that you're doing.
	Where are you in the South, sir?
	You're right.
	Actually, I happen to be driving down to a hydrogen project, and I'm a climate change mitigation researcher.
	And you're located?
	In Atlanta, Georgia, on my way down to Blakely, Georgia.
	Well, that was just a wild, psychic guess, plus your accent.
	Yeah, that's right.
	Okay, so what's the question?
	There's a great story coming out, and it is You guys are presenting it, and you're telling it.
	We are in the midst of climate change.
	The scientific research is absolutely infallible at this point.
	I don't think that you or anybody else can say that it's wrong.
	But the cause of it, whether it's fossil fuels, we've seen that curve go up ourselves.
	Everybody has seen it go up.
	But if you look back 10,000 years, it started going up before fossil fuels were burned.
	And that started with agriculture.
	And when we started stirring the earth, we started releasing CO2.
	We've lost about 50% of our CO2, our carbon in our soils.
	And we're reducing the ability to sustain the planet by the reduction of the soil fertility.
	And we've got a great opportunity.
	And that opportunity is to extract energy from biomass and return the carbon back to the soil along with the micronutrients that we're depleting from it.
	And that's a great story that comes out of climate change.
	It may not be usable to stop us, but it certainly is a technology that we can utilize afterwards.
	Okay.
	And then there are, are there not, Jim, some positive aspects of the climate change?
	I mean, not all of it is a bad story.
	There are going to be some areas that may not be particularly habitable or friendly right now that will become so, right?
	Yes, that's certainly true.
	In fact, that's why some people look at climate change as a positive thing.
	To the average person, global warming doesn't sound too bad.
	If you're freezing on some cold winter night, it doesn't sound all that bad that it's going to be a few degrees warmer.
	The problem comes in when we see how very small changes in temperature affect ecosystems and affect animals and plants.
	A number of scientists, naysayers, have said global warming will be good for the environment because it'll make plants grow faster.
	And in fact, carbon dioxide does have that effect on a sort of crude level.
	Plus I can see some of the promotional headlines like, Come to Tropical Canada!
	But see, everywhere will be tropical, so you won't want to go to Canada.
	A wild card line, you're on the air with Jim Motivali.
	Hello.
	Hi Art and Jim.
	I've been listening to you for years.
	Hey, I've got two questions.
	One is regarding the ozone layer that's orchestrated.
	My feeling is it might be an orchestrated hoax, this depletion of ozone.
	Am I on?
	Yes, you're on and let me just tell you that it's not an organized hoax.
	The holes in the ozone layer have been very, very real.
	They've caused large increases in skin cancer in places like Australia and New Zealand.
	But the thing is that the ozone layer is really a success story and it's a model for what we can do with climate change because The world got together.
	There was an international agreement called the Montreal Protocol.
	We agreed to stop emitting CFCs or chlorofluorocarbons.
	It's true.
	You know, Art, you know something about amateur radio.
	Isn't it true that the 10 meters relies on skip wave propagation off the ionosphere?
	Well, let me just give you another example.
	been forecasted as far as 100 years into the future, just how your reliability of the 10-meter
	band, there's a book you can buy 100 years into the future.
	Anyway, that's just one thing.
	Let me just give you another example.
	I saw a book recently that predicted the price structure for Barbie dolls 50 years in the
	future.
	We don't know what the price structure of that will be in 50 years.
	We couldn't pretend to know that.
	The other thing I wanted to ask you, Jim, is have you ever heard of a top secret project called the Halo Project, in which satellite beams can be trained And concentrated in order to manipulate temperatures.
	It actually goes even further than that.
	Let's use that as a launching point for climate control.
	There are certain military, I think it's the Army or the Air Force, one of them has claimed they will own the weather by the year 2525 or whatever.
	And so do you suppose that there are experiments going on with Trying to affect climate change using science.
	Yeah, I think there's a difference between changing weather and changing climate because climate is a much more macro effect and I think we are experimenting with climate right now by emitting as much carbon dioxide as we could.
	I have heard people say that by pouring iron in certain parts of the ocean You could create a new ice age.
	And this is the kind of thing that is largely unproven.
	And we're talking about what's called carbon sequestration.
	This is one of the answers to the carbon problem we've been looking at, where you hide carbon, you generate carbon, but you don't let it get emitted into the atmosphere.
	And you bury it deep in the ocean.
	And this is something that President Bush's plans actually call for, as a way of generating hydrogen, that you would use a coal gasification.
	Instead of burning coal, which is very much aggravates the global warming, you would gasify coal and then sequester the resulting carbon under the ocean.
	Whether this would work or not is very speculative.
	Do you know of, or have you heard, I mean the Russians made certain claims, Jim, for example about being able to create on-demand a cyclone and do other things from space.
	Do you think any of that's really going on?
	I have heard a little, like what the gentleman referred to, the Halo project.
	I've heard of that.
	I think it's possible to manipulate some short-term weather effects.
	I don't think it's possible to affect long-term weather effects, except in the way we're already doing it.
	Well, you can bet that if it's really changing, that's one avenue that the avenue, you know, that the halls of power would look at.
	Sure, certainly.
	They'd certainly turn to the scientists.
	We're talking about putting weapons in space, so changing.
	Oh, yes.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Jim Motivelli.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	This is David from Connecticut.
	I'm just a layman, and I can even understand that the fossil fuels are dying out.
	We must have the knowledge and technology to build something better.
	The question I do have is that there have been ice ages over the millennium, surging back and forth, hot and cold, and many ice ages, like in Britain.
	Do you know if we are in a recession from an ice age?
	Yes, we are.
	For the last 10,000 years, we've been in a recession from an ice age.
	And we could trigger another one.
	We were talking about that earlier, that some of the effects we're talking about could actually affect the climate in Western Europe, where it would plunge 10 degrees.
	It doesn't take a very large temperature change to affect an ice age.
	Most people have no understanding of how it's getting warmer will ultimately make it colder or bring on an ice age.
	They just can't grasp that.
	There are a lot of different effects of climate.
	For instance, we mentioned earlier the Asian cloud.
	There's a cloud of particulate matter over Asia in the summer now.
	And particulate matter is little particles of soot.
	It's really soot.
	And this has the effect of blocking solar radiation.
	Therefore, it also causes a cooling effect.
	So that's why I think it's better in some ways to call this climate change rather than global warming.
	Because there are Both cooling and heating effects.
	The overall effect is heating, but there also could be localized cooling effects as well.
	Well, it was a couple years ago, Jim, here in the southwest part of the United States.
	Holy smokes!
	Our skies were turning hazy, and then they became sort of yellowish, and it was really weird.
	It was like a yellow fog almost, and The local weatherman for several days were commenting on it and saying they had no idea what it was, and then finally the news hit us that we had been the recipient of something that came, I can't remember now, from Siberia or somewhere another.
	Exactly, and I reported on this in the book.
	Oh, you did?
	Yes, well what you can have, and I reported on this in relation to the Asian cloud that Particulate matter can travel over large continental distances.
	It can travel all the way from Asia.
	For instance, you can have a dust storm in the Gobi Desert and it'll blow all the way to the United States.
	That's exactly what it was, Jim.
	And it was so bizarre.
	I believe that was in 1998, a famous event.
	It was almost like an alien... we were suddenly on an alien planet where, you know, the sky had turned a different color and Oh, it was bizarre.
	So, it can happen.
	West of the Rockies, you're on there with Jim Motivoli.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	I'm calling from Albuquerque, and I haven't heard yet, unless I missed it, any discussion of methane, and it's 25 times more damaging to the atmosphere than carbon dioxide, and I just read a report out of Sweden that permafrost is Disappeared in some places and they're very concerned about the big emission of greenhouse gas methane from all this and then in the Christian Science Monitor they had an article on coal which is reprinted in the Albuquerque Tribune and even the environmental people that thought they were up on everything were astonished.
	There are 94 coal-fired electric power plants planned for 36 states.
	And the reason for all of this, we're being dragged according to the Sierra Club,
	back into the 19th century in our use of coal, because natural gas, it said in four years,
	the price of it is roughly tripled, so that the power companies can't make any money at all out of this.
	All right, well let me back up a little bit with what you said.
	She mentioned methane, and indeed I've seen a number of articles that make a joke out of it.
	You know, I mean there's cows out there emitting a lot of methane, and you wouldn't think that that would be a big factor, but wrong.
	It apparently is.
	What do you know about that, Jim?
	Yes, the caller is exactly right.
	Methane is a serious global warming gas, and indeed cows Or an emitter.
	I think 20% of methane is from cows.
	And I don't think this is the major global warming gas.
	Certainly carbon dioxide is the major global warming gas and the major thing we have to worry about.
	But there are other global warming gases and methane is one of them.
	Then she went on to talk about the plans for the coal-fired plants.
	Yes, well the Bush administration's energy plan Calls for massive construction of power plants to meet energy demand.
	Some of us have probably already forgotten about the California energy crisis.
	And one of the responses of the Bush administration to that, to the brownouts and the big Northeastern blackout also, was to call for a massive construction of power plants.
	Not just coal-fired power plants, but also Nuclear power plants and we all know that the nuclear industry has been more abundant for about 30 years.
	Yes.
	Largely because of the waste problem and we have not solved the nuclear waste problem.
	Nobody wants to take nuclear waste.
	It remains radioactive for centuries and it has the potential of escaping from whatever containers we put it in and the liability of that, the The necessity of providing storage for nuclear waste has largely prevented any new nuclear power plants from being built in about the last 30 years.
	Yeah, tell me about it.
	They're going to be storing it very near where I am right here.
	Yeah.
	And so we're all concerned about that.
	At any rate, so what do you say?
	I mean, they're building all these new coal-fired plants.
	What about that?
	Well, I'm not sure.
	I mean, that's the proposal.
	I'm not sure that that is actually being enacted, because again, People don't want power plants in their backyard, particularly coal-fired ones, because they're very nasty polluters.
	You have huge increases in asthma rates near coal-fired power plants.
	Nationally, we've got giant increases in asthma rates anyway.
	We do.
	We do.
	And I think that's going to create a battle.
	Many of the plants we're talking about, the coal-fired power plants, are grandfathered in.
	They've been there for a long time.
	They predate anyone's worrying about their emissions.
	And some of these plants are antiquated, but some of the anti-pollution laws we have permit these plants to continue to be operated on an historic basis, and I think that's unfortunate.
	But coal is very cheap compared to natural gas, as the caller said.
	So utilities are going to operate coal-fired power plants as long as they can.
	Very quickly, International Line.
	You're on the air with Jim Motivelli.
	Hello.
	Hi, I'm calling from Canada.
	Actually, some of us do like to be here, though.
	Are you looking forward to it getting warmer there?
	Well, soon it would be nice.
	I must say it's been a snowy winter.
	Tropical Canada.
	It would not be a kiss.
	Vacation now in tropical Canada.
	That's right, that's right.
	I wanted you, Jim, if you could, to be A little more concrete in your suggestions, for example, Koch listeners have proven in the past that they will take on a chore and follow through.
	Don't you think if you were to say something like, and I'll hang up to hear your answer, if everyone listening to the sound of my voice were to call their congressman of whatever party they are and say, I want PZ cars to be an issue in this election, and enough people do it, Like, they need specific, concrete tasks.
	All right, we're at a break point, so to say something that specific, that's not the job of a journalist.
	You report on that when the big guy says it, right?
	Isn't that right?
	Yeah, pretty much.
	All right, Jim.
	Jim Motovelli, my guest.
	His book is incredible.
	It's Feeling the Heat Dispatches from the Front Lines of Climate Change.
	I'm Art Bell.
	The White Bird dreams of the aspen tree, with his dying knee, turning blue.
	But the white bird just sits in the cage, rowing on.
	White bird must fly or she will die.
	The sunset's come, the sunset's gone.
	The clouds fly by, the earth turns slow, The endless islands do always roll,
	And she must fly.
	To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 7.
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
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	From coast to coast, and worldwide on the Internet, this is Coast to Coast AM, with Art Bell.
	It is.
	My guest, Jim Marvelli, and it evokes a lot of anger out there.
	Somebody says something I can't even repeat on the radio, and says, Bull stuff.
	We're not responsible.
	Tell them to get not by fire, but by ice.
	We are not this stupid.
	And, you know, this kind of thing does provoke a great deal of anger.
	We'll get back to Jim in a moment.
	Once again, Jim Motovilli, his book Feeling the Heat, dispatches from the front lines
	of climate change something you can pick up probably with the click of a mouse,
	amazon.com or your favorite bookstore, whatever.
	Welcome back, Jim.
	Is there anything tonight, Jim, that we should have covered or should be covering from your book or knowledge that we haven't?
	Well, I do think one of your callers asked about solutions.
	Yes.
	Solution-oriented stuff.
	Let's do it.
	If we look at what What causes climate change?
	What causes carbon dioxide emissions?
	We can basically get it down to a number of C-words.
	Coal, cars, and chainsaws.
	One way of reducing it.
	Chainsaws.
	Chainsaws, because we are cutting down the world's forests.
	In some cases, burning them, which is even worse, because that is a huge global warming aggravator.
	We're cutting down the world's Forests, as most people know, are carbon sinks in that they absorb carbon dioxide and prevent it from being released into the atmosphere.
	So we're burning forests, the world's rainforests, particularly in Brazil.
	We're turning these lovely old-growth forests into toilet paper and toothpicks, and we're getting into teas here.
	Increasing the world's fleet of cars is currently at like 500 million cars, probably 600 million.
	China is starting to add private cars.
	India is adding private cars at a huge rate.
	And this is a source of 30 or 40% of the carbon dioxide emissions.
	And then we have coal, which is one of our major fuels around the world.
	So those are the things That are producing carbon dioxide.
	And the solutions?
	Well, one of them, I think, is people need to look at what they drive.
	I personally have written quite a lot about SUVs.
	And SUVs are major global warming emitters.
	They're allowed to emit 30 to 40 percent more global warming gas than cars in many cases.
	And they're not particularly regulated.
	There's sort of a loophole for SUVs in the law.
	I think people should be driving the most fuel-efficient cars they can imagine, or they can afford and get their family into.
	And they should look at alternatives to driving.
	If it's possible to take public transit, they should look at that.
	I think I've mentioned before that we're the most car-dependent nation on earth.
	Well, if you're a Californian, Jim, to be honest with you, you almost have to own a car.
	Right.
	In many parts of the country, that is indeed true.
	We can't fault people.
	For taking the only available transportation they can get to get to work.
	But as I said, you can look at what kind of car you drive, how much you drive, and whether you need to drive quite as much, whether you have to take that trip.
	Is that trip really necessary?
	And look into whether there is public transit and certainly advocate for it.
	Well, even if the politicians don't want to change this now, The price of gasoline will change it, won't it?
	I think that's true.
	I think already, particularly people who own SUVs because they're so fuel inefficient, are starting to complain about the cost of gasoline.
	Well, sure they are.
	And I think for the first time in history, we're starting to move backwards in terms of the fuel economy of our average automobile.
	And this is because of the larger, heavier SUVs we have on the road.
	I think people have irrationally become attached to having these large four-wheel drive vehicles.
	I have actually done a story for the New York Times recently.
	It's sort of counterintuitive in a way because it says that SUVs are not the best car to have on ice.
	I think we have SUV overconfidence in America.
	I interviewed a whole number of state troopers for this story about how The cars they see having accidents in winter storms are SUVs because the drivers are overconfident.
	So that's one thing we need to look at.
	I think we need to look at our consumption patterns.
	I think people are living in larger and larger houses every year.
	The average size of the American house has gotten larger, and that means more home heating oil is being burned to keep them warm.
	Our consumption patterns in general have shot up in every respect.
	We're the most consumptive people on earth.
	Americans are five percent of the world's population.
	Well, you said solutions, but what you've been giving me here sounds pretty, I don't know, not exactly optimistic.
	Well, no, but I just think we need to look at our consumption.
	A lot of what we do, a lot of what we do is waste, and I don't think it's I don't think our consumption patterns make us happy all the time.
	All right, people are waiting.
	First time caller line, you're on the air with Jim Motivelli.
	Hello.
	Hello?
	Yes, Art.
	This is Tim from Los Angeles.
	Hello, Tim.
	What's up?
	Hey, I got a couple things for you.
	I wanted to let you know something that's going on in Los Angeles, a cause of global warming that probably even Jim's not aware of.
	I've been working the harbor for about 15 years now, and I've been watching the levels rise in the harbor.
	And at the highest tides, we've got about five or six more feet until about half of the harbor complex is underwater.
	And it's something that's quite interesting that I don't think a lot of people are aware of.
	They're not paying attention to it.
	Were you aware of that, Jim?
	Well, I think this is the kind of thing people who work on the water and are out there every day are to notice, because they see that.
	But otherwise, it's not being reported.
	In fact, a whole lot of this information, with the exception of some recent stories that you and I have been talking about tonight, it's not related.
	It's not considered newsworthy or something.
	Well, it's often reported just sort of as scattered little news items, and for instance, It was recently reported that the Great Barrier Reef, one of our great natural treasures off Australia, could be dead as a result of coral bleaching in the next 10 or 20 years.
	That is just reported in isolation.
	It's a little news item.
	It fills the bottom of the page.
	But these are all part of the same pattern, the kind of things we reported on in the book.
	And that's where you put it all together.
	All right.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Jim Motivelli.
	Hello.
	Hello, good morning Art, Jim.
	Good morning sir, where are you?
	Good morning.
	This is Joe, I'm in Michigan listening to you on 800 AM CKLW out of Canada.
	Yes sir.
	Okay, here's my concern, and here's what's been making me make all my minimum payments on everything.
	I do believe the world is probably going to come to an end in the next couple of years.
	If you remember what happened in San Diego just last year, and now you go back to Mexico and Indonesia a few years ago, When everything was burning up, out of control.
	Yes.
	Aren't we just a few good forest fires, whether they come from El Caida terrorists or lightning strikes, away from just kissing our SUVs goodbye?
	Okay, Jim.
	I'm not quite sure how he means that.
	Yes, we are burning up our rainforest at a huge Great.
	One of the things you can see from space is the clouds in Brazil.
	I know.
	The astronauts are always commenting on it.
	Yeah.
	And I think what we're doing there is incredibly inefficient.
	Farmers are burning rainforest to create livestock habitat.
	And unfortunately, rainforest makes very bad Livestock, grazing land.
	Or even agricultural land.
	My understanding is it's very good for maybe a crop or two and then it's no good at all and they've got to move on and burn down more rainforest and shift where they plant.
	That's the pattern.
	There's very thin topsoil in the rainforest.
	It's an amazing living system that once destroyed does not get recreated.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Jim Motovelli.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Am I on?
	You are on the air.
	That's why that on the air part means something.
	I think you gentlemen are doing an outstanding function here tonight and I believe the book is very important.
	It's very difficult for the mind to absorb the fact that it's hot in Europe now and there's going to be an ice sheet there.
	In the future.
	It is, yes.
	And the public could just hear snapshots of this as confused.
	A few synopses will show the height of the ocean of all the ice in the world disappears and then again how much the oceans will go down if we have ice sheets miles deep.
	If just some short statements would keep people from arguing tomorrow in their confusion.
	Well, let me just say that the sea level has risen about six inches over the last hundred years, but we're looking at it rising two feet over the next hundred years.
	That's the kind of rapid effect we're talking about.
	Is it possible to project, with the melting in the next X number of years, where sea levels actually will be and what that will, in real world terms, mean for the New Orleans of the world?
	I think it'll mean inundation of some of our very low-lying coastal areas, particularly islands.
	There's large parts of China that are practically at sea level.
	I mean, you take a look at a topographical map that shows sea level, and you'll see all the areas that are threatened by this, unless we can take some kind of remedial action.
	Waterworld.
	Waterworld is a global warming scenario.
	I don't think it's a particularly accurate one.
	But it is a global warming scenario.
	All right.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Jim Motovilli.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	This is Olin in Culver City listening to KO Geo San Diego.
	Yes, sir.
	At the Yellowstone National Park, a large volcanic magma intrusion is raising the caldera floor.
	What do you think about drilling geothermal wells, pumping cooling water into the hot ground, In receiving hot steam to drive electric power turbines to produce hydrogen.
	You're talking about an intriguing technology that I have a lot of interest in.
	I mentioned much earlier in the show that I was in Switzerland visiting Swiss Re.
	I also visited some Swiss scientists that were tying into geothermal energy there and you wouldn't think of a cold country like Switzerland being able to tap into geothermal energy but it's pretty much below all of us.
	We all know that the Earth has a molten core.
	And countries like Iceland, for instance, get a majority of their heating from geothermal.
	And I think this is one of the energy sources of the future.
	As to generating hydrogen from it, I'd like to know more about that.
	I have not seen that proposed, but it's definitely a potential technology.
	It's really coincidental that you mentioned Swiss Re because I read the story from Reuters about Swiss Re and the way they feel right now about climate change.
	And they're, well I don't want to say scared to death, but basically they're worried that they could end up out of business as a result of what's about to come.
	And when the insurance companies worry, we should worry.
	And it's strange that you would have visited them.
	This story was, let's see, Wednesday, March 3rd, 1140 p.m.
	Reuters.
	Yeah, well I was in Switzerland a couple months ago.
	And that was one of the highlights of my tour, I would say, visiting Swiss Re.
	Remarkable.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Jim Motovelli.
	Hello.
	Good morning, gentlemen.
	Excellent show.
	Thank you.
	My name is Bill Cohen from Colorado Springs, Colorado.
	OK, Bill.
	In reference to Mr. Motovelli, earlier you made reference to something called a P-Zab?
	P-Zab's right.
	I don't like acronyms, so let me just say Partial Zero Emission Vehicle.
	Okay.
	Now, say if a consumer... I'm interested in getting one of these installed in my vehicle.
	Is that possible, or would I have to buy a brand new vehicle?
	And where did you say you were again?
	Colorado Springs?
	Colorado Springs, okay.
	Well, it's only in some states, right, John?
	Let me just say the states.
	In California, there's nothing to stop you in Colorado from going to California and buying one.
	The other states are New York, Massachusetts, Maine, and Vermont, I believe.
	So he can't just call somebody and have one sent?
	I doubt they would do that, but you can certainly buy them in those states.
	Isn't that interesting?
	There are some problems.
	It's not the easiest thing in every case, because some of them are designed to run on California version of gasoline, which is very low sulfur.
	Oh, I see.
	But Californians travel.
	What happens when Californians travel to other states?
	Well, I think all of them will run on any gasoline.
	Actually, I once had a piece that they told me that I couldn't refuel it because I was driving it in Michigan and it was dependent on low sulfur fuel.
	They said I could run it out of gasoline and that was it.
	You're kidding!
	No, but this is not one that you could buy.
	But I mean, why not make this device available to all ecologically conscious people who would wish to order it?
	Well, I believe the Ford Focus P-ZEV is available nationwide.
	And I think that may be the only one you can get just about anywhere.
	And that's a very, very good car that I spent Quite a bit of time in myself.
	It actually has more power than the normal Ford Focus.
	Gotcha.
	Use to the Rockies.
	You're on the air with Jim Montebelli.
	Hello.
	Oh, yes.
	Am I on?
	You're on.
	Oh, Bush Hart.
	Wonderful, wonderful show.
	Thank you.
	I have a question for Art and one for the guests.
	Okay, real quick.
	We're almost out of time.
	Art, I believe you mentioned maybe about a year ago about some farmer that produces his own hydrogen to run his farm on.
	I vaguely recall that.
	I live in Florida and we're like surrounded with water.
	I'm wondering what the weather's going to be like here.
	I'm thinking of making a move up around Pennsylvania, Ohio Valley.
	My family goes way back in the greenhouse, hot house business.
	And I'm a farmer from way back, so I know how to take care of me.
	Alright, so here's a lady who lives in Florida.
	Florida's an interesting case because it too is rather low land-wise with respect to the oceans, right?
	It's very flat and very low.
	Yeah.
	I haven't heard of the Florida mountains.
	No, no.
	But we have in the book, we have a whole chapter on coral bleaching in the Florida Keys.
	This is a huge problem.
	It still looks beautiful off Key West and everything, but under the sea, we've had dramatic effects.
	I do think Florida is one of the areas that's threatened, not just by sea level rise, but particularly by an increase in storm activity.
	In our book, we show pictures of how the Florida environment is very built up.
	It's built up right to the water's edge because of how valuable That waterfront property is.
	It gives beach areas nowhere to go because there's nowhere to retreat to.
	The water can't retreat into a natural area.
	It goes into people's basements.
	That's the problem with places like Florida.
	I also reported that in New Jersey where we have these big beach replenishment efforts.
	The coastline wants to move.
	Storms want to change the picture of the coastline.
	It's naturally evolving.
	But we want to say, we want to make it immutable.
	We want to say the coast stops here because that's where we built.
	But that's very hard to do.
	Very difficult.
	Very little time.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Jim Motovelli.
	Hello.
	Hello?
	Hi.
	Am I on?
	You're on.
	Okay, hi.
	I'm calling because of two solutions.
	One, Jim, Get your book to those two major daytime talk show host producers, because Mr. Rush Limbaugh's weakest part of his stuff is the science and environment and so forth, and also Sean Hannity.
	Also, the Senate committee, George Allen is from Virginia, and some of these other guys, they only will respond really to maybe a major insurance lobbyist, which you said the re-insurance, Swiss Re would be, I think that's very true.
	i think if we could get some of these larger bodies of uh...
	people to uh... lean on the uh... senate committee
	such as the environment and public work that we might not honor them or brought
	it on this so we might get there what about that i think that's very true i think people should be
	contacting their legislators saying they're concerned about
	global warming saying they want to see investment in renewable energy
	technologies so we can have an alternative to fossil fuels
	We don't want to end up fighting World War III over the last remaining oil supplies.
	And that's where it's headed.
	Jim, buddy, thank you for being on the program.
	It's been a pleasure.
	Yeah, it was great.
	All right.
	You have a good night, what's left of it, and a great weekend.
	Thank you.
	I'd love to be on again sometime.
	All right.
	Take care.
	All right, folks, that's it.
	That's all we've got for tonight.
	Tomorrow night, the official spokesperson for Billy Meyer.
	The official spokesperson is going to be here.
	For that, I will see you tomorrow.

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