Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool

All Episodes

Previous Next

Jan. 17, 2004 - Art Bell

02:50:52

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Peter Davenport - UFO Reports

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Time	Text
	Music playing...
	the Omaha Desert and the great American Southwest.
	I bid you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be in the world's time zones.
	Prolific, but all covered by this program.
	Coast to Coast AM.
	Weekend version.
	Good evening, good morning, whatever.
	I'm Art Bell, and it's great to be here.
	Tonight, we're going to talk about what we do so much on this program, Ufology, with one of the best, Peter Davenport.
	Now, Peter is director of the National UFO Reporting Center.
	He was the founding president of a Seattle-based biotech company, which currently employs over 300 scientists and technicians.
	Peter's been an active, had an active interest in the UFO phenomena.
	From early boyhood, he experienced his first UFO sighting over the St.
	Louis Municipal Airport in the summer of 1954.
	Investigated his first UFO case.
	During the summer of 1965 in Exeter, New Hampshire, Peter has been witness to several anomalous events, possibly UFO related, including a dramatic sighting over Baja California in February of 1990 and several nighttime sightings over Washington State during 1992.
	In addition to being director of the National UFO Reporting Center, Peter has served as Director of Investigations for the Washington Chapter of the Mutual UFO Network, and we have so many times before, we're going to have a number of witnesses here for you.
	And in the first case, that of Mr. Kim Schaefer, who you will hear from shortly, we have a video to go with it.
	So I thought I'd give you a little heads up.
	If you go to the coast2coastam.com website, You will prominently see that video available for you.
	And I suggest you take a look, and a good close look.
	I think I've seen it about five or six times now.
	And God bless Kim for having a camera there to sort of share this with you.
	I mean, it's a whole... Hearing words are one thing, and we do a lot of that, and naturally so, because not everybody, or it might be said that most people, wouldn't have a camera nearby.
	At that moment, certainly I didn't when I had my big sighting.
	No camera.
	Nor, frankly, might it have even occurred to me I was in such a state of shock to grab it had I had one.
	Of course, I had some time afterwards to go after myself for not having a camera, and that hasn't changed me because I still don't carry a camera wherever I go.
	However, earlier today, My webcam shot, if you want to take a look at that, upper left hand side of the website as you enter.
	It says Arts Webcam.
	You'll see a whole group of people there.
	And this is a group of people who showed up at my house today.
	A whole group of hams that came from as far away as Washington State.
	People that I talk to on a regular basis.
	Very nice group of people in Arizona and California and just all over the place.
	And so I took an opportunity in my front yard to snap a photograph of all of them.
	In this case, someone else snapped, and you'll find me.
	You can search for me in the crowd there.
	So, uh, we did that earlier today, and that's on my webcam site right now.
	In a moment, Peter Davenport, and, oh yes, tonight we will talk about ufology, we'll talk to witnesses, we'll show you a video, and then We will talk about the general state, we'll broaden the conversation and talk about the general state of ufology today and where we go from here.
	all of that coming up.
	Here is Peter Davenport.
	Peter, welcome to the program.
	As always, thank you, Art.
	It's delightful to be here.
	I'm looking forward to this program.
	I think we've got some really, really interesting witnesses for our audience tonight.
	You know, we've got a video, Peter, and that is above and beyond.
	I mean, how many people that ever see UFOs manage to get out a video camera, focus, and go to it and get us something we can look at?
	Now, it's not a saucer with people waving at us, It's pretty good stuff, folks.
	That's how I'd classify it, Peter, wouldn't you?
	Yeah.
	In fact, in my opinion, Art, this video that's on your website is some of the best video I've seen probably in the nine and a half years since I first started as director here at the UFO Center.
	At first, I didn't really take note of the case.
	I got a call from Kim Schaefer back in Bristol, Tennessee.
	He said he had this.
	He sent a written report.
	And we hear a lot of stories about people who have photographs of UFOs, and I estimate that only about one out of a hundred bits of photographic evidence that are sent to us really address any kind of UFO sighting or a photograph of a UFO.
	Most of them are hummingbirds or starlings or pigeons or you name it, we get it.
	But when I saw this tape, I was just agog when I popped it in the VCR and watched it.
	Some of the best video I've seen, and Kim is really to be congratulated for.
	He's one in a thousand among observers of UFO events.
	Absolutely.
	There's no question about it.
	This is good stuff.
	I mean, it really is good stuff.
	Now, there's not enough here for my eyes to say that I'm identifying what it is.
	So it sure is a UFO, but it is not behaving like anything that we have that I know of.
	That was my reaction to it too.
	It's pretty small.
	But it clearly is disc-shaped.
	It's turning in the sky, and I agree with you, it's performing maneuvers that are seen to my eye and to everybody else who's looked at it, they agree.
	It's performing maneuvers that are not aerodynamic maneuvers.
	Right.
	Now, I also agree with you, by the way, on the disc aspect of it.
	As you point out, it's small, but it is possible to discern with a good monitor.
	This is a disc.
	Whatever it is, whatever the hell it is, it's a disc.
	And there it is in the sky.
	Shall we bring on Kim?
	Let's bring him on.
	All right, this is Mr. Kim Schaefer.
	And Kim, where are you located?
	Kim?
	Oh, wait a minute.
	Push the right button, Arthur.
	Kim, are you there now?
	Yes, sir.
	Good, where are you?
	I'm in Bristol, Tennessee.
	I hear that accent.
	Bristol, Tennessee, huh?
	Yes, sir.
	Okay, you're going to have to speak up good and loud for us.
	You're not too strong on the phone here, so just put your lips up against that thing and make it work.
	Okay, thank you.
	So, Kim, how long have you been in ufology?
	Essentially, I guess, all my life.
	Well, I can barely hear you, Kim.
	Essentially, all my life.
	I've really been interested in ufology ever since I was a child.
	Okay.
	Did you actively get involved in organized ufology after this sighting or prior to?
	After.
	After the sighting.
	Yeah, I can understand.
	These things do something to you, don't they?
	It was life-changing.
	Yeah, life-changing.
	That's right.
	Alright, well, go ahead and tell us about it.
	Where, when, all the rest of that sort of thing.
	My son and myself were actually working on an automobile on August the 2nd and we generally look at the sky.
	And I turned around and I saw this little thing in the sky.
	It was going in and out of a cloud bank.
	And I thought it was a balloon.
	And I told my son to keep an eye on it and I went in the house and got my binoculars and I came back outside and I was dumbfounded.
	Alright, now let me stop you right here.
	Everybody's going to be watching the video, and in the video, it is barely possible to discern that indeed it is a disc.
	I mean, you can see that in the video.
	I assume you had a good pair of binoculars.
	Um, how much more were you seeing with your eyes than we see in the video?
	On the full version of the video, I was seeing actually probably five times what the video was showing through the binoculars.
	Uh-huh.
	So can you add any detail that the people watching this won't be able to make out?
	Well, you can imagine that this perfect disc has no features whatsoever.
	You can't discern the top from the bottom.
	Um, it's just perfection.
	That's, that's about, that's about the best description that you could give of this thing.
	It was absolutely, it was amazing.
	Alright, for you to be able to go and get a pair of binoculars and then ultimately I guess a camera, how did that happen?
	I mean it must have been there quite, quite a long time.
	I watched it for approximately five minutes before My brain decided that I needed to film this session.
	Yeah, gotcha.
	So did you go and grab binoculars and camera at the same time?
	No, sir, because my first impression was that it was a balloon.
	And to satisfy my curiosity, of course, I went for the binoculars first.
	Gotcha.
	And so happened.
	I had a hot battery, had a camcorder, and an empty tape.
	Look, that's very lucky.
	That's very lucky and so you came back out with the binoculars and then began to take video or were you sharing duties with someone else or what?
	Well my whole family became involved in this little project and my son and my wife were fighting over the binoculars and I was typing and you know if well I'm sure you've had a sighting you know all these things that go through your head Yeah, it's startling.
	So you saw five times more than we're seeing now.
	That's a lot.
	You know, it just, it was just, it was amazing.
	It was an adrenaline rush.
	It was just an amazing feeling to actually see something.
	Yeah, it's startling.
	So you saw five times more than we're seeing now.
	That's a lot.
	And I'm curious, when this was over, what did your brain tell
	you you had just been a part of?
	You know, I really cannot remember my first thoughts except for the fact that I've got to go report this on Peter
	Davenport's site.
	And that was the very first thing that I did.
	Yeah, and I guess you had to fight a little to get his attention on this, huh?
	Well, Peter, as you know, gets a landslide of reports, and not too many of them are accompanied by video, as you have provided here.
	I mean, that's really, really excellent.
	But even now, all this time since, it's been how long?
	Since August 2nd, right?
	Yes, sir.
	So you've had a lot of time now to reflect on what you saw.
	What are your major choices here?
	Do you think that you saw an alien craft?
	Kim, do you think you saw an experimental U.S.
	government craft?
	What do you think?
	Honestly, I do not know.
	I have no idea.
	I would like to think that this thing that we saw, Exit the Clouds, Fly away was something that our government has probably been keeping from us, and that's what I would like to think.
	Do you have an airbase or something close to you, Kim?
	There is an airport that, as a matter of fact, I called them right after the sighting, which was the next thing I did.
	Oh, and what did they say?
	After the laughing, they informed me that No matter what was in the sky at that time, their radar would not confirm nor deny that there was anything there due to the fact that if it had no transponder on it, that it wouldn't register on the FAA radar.
	Interesting.
	Peter, help me out here.
	Peter, I know you know a lot about aviation.
	Are most airports equipped with both transponder receiving radar and The good old-fashioned reflective bounce type radar as secondary capability or what?
	My understanding is they should be, Art.
	The U.S.
	is, to the best of my knowledge, completely covered with radar coverage and with transponder capability.
	Transponder capability meaning that the airplane carries a radio and if the ground signals the radio, the radio sends out A coded signal that identifies that airplane positively.
	Right.
	However, has the trend been to get away from regular radar, Peter, and go toward transponders exclusively?
	Well, I think they have both.
	They are integrated, both part of a system.
	But the interesting thing about FAA radar is that the screens that the air traffic controllers are looking at is not necessarily raw radar data.
	It is radar data that has been fed into a computer by any number of radar units.
	It is processed.
	The computer screens out those objects that are stationary or going so fast that the computer determines that they are probably not an aircraft.
	So what the radar, the air traffic controllers see is a simulation, really.
	And something that is close to the ground or not moving, more likely than not, would be filtered out by the filters that they put in the computer.
	Well, are you saying that the screen that they have takes in both types of radars, transponder locations and signals, as well as actual radar, or what?
	Absolutely, and what the air traffic controller sees on his screen is a blip indicating an aircraft or a target and right beside it if that aircraft has a transponder I believe I'm correct in saying that the transponder number that that aircraft has been assigned by the air traffic controller actually show up right next to the appropriate blip.
	But that blip is a return of radar is that correct?
	That's my understanding a return perhaps even from several radars And when all that data is fed into the computer, the computer processes it, and then it puts an image on the screen that the controller is looking at.
	Alright, well this is an important point.
	Bear with us here for a moment, Kim.
	A very important point, because across the United States we have all of this radar coverage, but am I believing here as I listen to you, Peter, that Our radars across the nation might not see UFOs because the computers might filter them out as not part of what the guys are supposed to be watching for?
	Very good question.
	The question is whether air traffic controllers see UFOs, and I think the answer to that is sometimes they do.
	Case in point, over the state of Rhode Island, June 22nd, year 2000, an object was seen by Providence Approach Control to actually reverse its course and follow an aircraft over the shore of Rhode Island.
	Other times they don't show up at all.
	I could cite probably a hundred cases of that.
	Why that is, Art, I have no idea.
	Isn't that interesting?
	Because you would think the FAA would have to continue to monitor the skies for possible danger that doesn't have necessarily a transponder on it.
	Absolutely.
	You and I once did a program with a couple of pilots near Dallas back on, it was October 26, 1999, and the two pilots, both former military pilots, saw something approach their airliners at about 35,000 feet, but the air traffic controller, whom we also had on that same program, saw absolutely nothing on his screen.
	So that's a case in point of how these objects sometimes do not show up on radar.
	Kim, if I might, this object was in and out of, or appeared to be in and out of the clouds, right?
	Yes, sir.
	So, based on that, you said over a field.
	That would suggest to me a lower altitude.
	Or were you just referring to your physical location?
	Well, physically, I'm south of a town, and this is a very rural area, and when we first saw the object, it was out of a cloud bank.
	We had had storms earlier that day, and there was a cloud bank to our north.
	Well, what I'm saying here is that you actually said maneuvering over an empty field.
	That would sort of imply that you're near the field and watching it and it's at kind of a low altitude to be able to say it's over an empty field.
	Well, yes sir.
	It actually lowered in altitude as we watched it and when we started filming it, it was actually at its lowest point.
	Okay.
	So how low would you say at the lowest point it was?
	At its lowest point it was probably, a good guesstimation would be, it was probably 8 to 10,000 feet.
	Eight to ten thousand feet.
	Okay.
	Well listen, Kim, you've done us and the nation a great service by getting the video good going.
	Thank you, sir.
	Is what I'd say.
	And how about the rest of your family?
	Do any of the rest of them, I mean, you must talk about this, those of you that saw it.
	How many of you saw it?
	Three.
	Three.
	The other two, have you talked to them?
	What do they think they saw?
	They also have no idea.
	They now believe that there are things that can be explained.
	Well, there certainly are.
	Kim, I want to thank you for coming on tonight, and especially, again, brother, thank you for sending the video.
	That was really cool.
	Well, you're welcome, sir, and thank you for having me on.
	It's a pleasure to be on with the famous Art Bell.
	Take care, Kim.
	Thank you, Peter.
	And all of you who have not had the opportunity yet, Do take a moment to get to your computer and go to the coast2coastam.com website and look at this video.
	It's unusual.
	Normally, all we have is words, but there's a man who took the time and trouble to get a video camera out and hit us with what he saw.
	I mean, that's just absolutely wonderful.
	If you go up there and take a look, that's what we're talking about tonight, folks.
	We're talking about things that are in our skies.
	There's no doubt about it, about what they are.
	Perhaps, yes.
	But not that they're up there, and not that they're doing something in our skies.
	And you just know that our military has to know about it.
	Either that, or our military isn't in control of the skies, and this is a group who says they'll be in control of the weather soon, right?
	So you know they know what's up there.
	It may not be a close-up, but it's a pretty good video.
	from the high desert and the great American southwest, this is Coast to Coast AM.
	Welcome to the Coast to Coast America.
	This is a short video of the Coast to Coast America.
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
	To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll free at 800-825-5033.
	From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
	International callers may reach Art by calling your in-country Sprint Access number, pressing
	option 5, and dialing toll free, 800-893-0903.
	From coast to coast, and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM, with
	Gotta tell you an interesting quick story about this bumper music.
	As you know, it was used in a couple of episodes of Dead Like Me, and I went nuts over it.
	I thought, boy, I'm hooked on this record.
	You know, an earworm, right?
	So I started playing it, just as bumper music.
	Hunted it up.
	It's by a group, actually, called Matisse, and they're in Ireland.
	And the other day, I got a really nice email from Matisse in Ireland.
	And apparently, they've been getting a lot of requests for that music.
	And so they noted the fact we were playing and said, thank you.
	And I thought that was pretty cool.
	All the way from Ireland, my guest is Peter Davenport.
	Actually, we have an array of guests.
	The subject tonight, UFOs.
	and we'll get right back to it.
	The phenomena of UFOs, or ufology, is a very, very frustrating phenomena because you, it's
	something that you get close to in varying degrees but you never
	quite nail it down.
	That doesn't mean it's not there.
	It's there.
	Be assured, it's there in our skies.
	Be assured of that.
	But you never quite Nail it down.
	So that makes it very frustrating for people like that, Peter Davenport, I'm sure.
	You still keep plugging away, but I bet there's a lot of frustration, huh, Peter?
	Well, you hit it on the nail head, Art.
	It is a fascinating job.
	It's an interesting job dealing with all the people I deal with in the course of a typical day, but frustration with a capital F. And what we have done in the ufology over the last 56 years, since the official beginning with the citing over the Near Mount Rainier up here in the state of Washington is just accumulate eyewitness accounts.
	The likes of which we heard tonight, although in the case of Kim, he did just the right thing.
	He grabbed the camera and he got it on film.
	That's a world apart from an eyewitness account.
	Point of interest are, part of the reason I'm having these two witnesses on who've seen discs recently, during the past year, is that I think it was two days after Kim got his on film, Another gentleman up near Vancouver, British Columbia got essentially the same thing on videotape as well.
	Oh!
	Equally dramatic.
	Just 48 hours later, I believe it was.
	I've forgotten the exact date.
	But, in addition, I should explain to you and to our listeners tonight why I've decided to have these witnesses on.
	Just 12 days ago, a gentleman called us from Fort Myers, Florida.
	He was absolutely flabbergasted As flabbergasted as a gentleman of his ilk and his cut ever gets, I did almost everything in my power to get him on this program tonight because he saw a disc as overtly, and which was as dramatic an appearance as what Kim just described to us, and... What was the source of his reluctance?
	His job.
	He is an investigator, and he said, look, I've got 30 years plus in this business.
	If I go on a program like Coast to Coast, people will recognize my voice.
	No question about it.
	I cannot do it, he said.
	But we've never had a higher, more qualified observer than this gentleman in Fort Myers, Florida.
	On the 4th of January, he saw a disc, or If our listeners would like to see it, our trusty webmaster just got images that the witness provided to us up on our homepage.
	Oh, really?
	You want to rattle off your homepage?
	I'm sure we've got a link.
	Yeah.
	It's simply ufocenter.com.
	U-F-O-C-E-N-T-E-R dot com.
	There is a beautiful graphic of what this gentleman allegedly saw on the 4th of January.
	I think that was Sunday.
	Daylight sighting, no clouds, perfectly blue sky over Fort Myers.
	And this guy stood there absolutely aghast looking at this object maneuvering in the daytime sky.
	This whole first part of this program with these witnesses who have witnessed disks was predicated on my early assumption that we were going to be able to get this gentleman.
	We're going to twist his arm and get him on this program.
	All right, on your site there, where is it now?
	It is the object right on our home page.
	Fort Myers, Florida.
	Just scroll down half a page on our homepage and you will see his rendition of what he saw.
	In addition, just below it.
	That's a classic.
	That's just classic.
	Classic.
	Classic UFO.
	Thin.
	It's aspect ratio is very high.
	Very thin.
	Almost like a coin.
	Got it.
	It was metallic in appearance.
	This gentleman has 30 years in investigation.
	He has served as a professional witness and I suspect his reluctance to come on a program like this.
	I understand.
	Yeah.
	You know, I do.
	I mean, look, people have jobs and they have lives and nobody in their right mind is going to jeopardize their living, meaning their family.
	By making such a report.
	So you can imagine why pilots don't do it and other officials don't do it.
	They're going to go back to the unit and say, hey, I saw a flying saucer.
	We're going to have to ask you to see the company shrink, if you don't mind, and it gets worse from there.
	So, I mean, really, folks, think of your own situation.
	Do you have a job where it would be jeopardized by reporting something like this?
	A lot of you do.
	We've got another witness, right?
	We do indeed.
	Wonderful witness who has absolutely superb credentials, and he tells his story so well, Art.
	Our listeners can read his story on our website, his written report.
	They can see his illustration on our homepage.
	With that, I don't know what he wants to call himself.
	He, too, is a little sensitive about his public position.
	Well, before we do anything, let's just get him on the line and ask for ourselves.
	Safe in using your first name?
	Yes, yes.
	Steve, do you want to use your whole name or not?
	I guess I don't really mind that much.
	It's okay with me one way or the other.
	It's definitely your decision to make, buddy, so if you want to give your name, go ahead.
	Well, my name is Steve Cattola.
	Okay.
	I reside in Richland, Washington, and I did witness a UFO, a daytime sighting, that was pretty startling.
	When did this occur?
	It occurred 27th of July, I believe it was, it was a Sunday, and it was in conjunction with the traditional annual race that we have up here for the unlimited hydroplanes.
	Oh yes, uh-huh.
	And I was on the edge of the Columbia River looking, watching the races, and I had my binoculars, which are, you know, a pretty high quality pair of eight power Pentaxes.
	And, uh, in conjunction with the races, they also have an air show.
	And a variety of jets come by that, uh, demonstrate, you know, military, uh, equipment and that sort of thing.
	So you were sky-watching, anyway?
	Absolutely.
	We were sky-watching, anyway, and we had, uh, the stealth bomber come by, and we've had, uh, the F-117s fly by once in a while.
	And, uh, all part of the show, part of the orchestration, you know, for, for the event.
	And this particular case, uh, There were two trainers, I believe they were Navy trainers, that had come by and done their aerobatics and so forth, and as they were leaving, they flew off to the west side of town, kind of up the river and away from us, and I just watched them in my binoculars as they disappeared to the west, and I thought that perhaps they would come back for one more flyby, you know, to give a grand finale or something like that.
	But they didn't.
	They just kept going and finally turned to the south.
	As I was following in the binoculars, I saw this black object kind of pass through my field of vision.
	At first I thought it was maybe an eagle or something like that, fairly close.
	So I flipped back to the object, maybe one or two seconds, something like that.
	As soon as I flipped back to it, the black object was gone and it was replaced by a silver object.
	Hmm.
	And I thought, gee that's really interesting.
	And so I began to study this object through the binoculars.
	And what eventually I could discern is that the object was black on the bottom and silver metallic on the top.
	And it maneuvered in such a way that I describe it to others and friends as kind of a hawk that you see working a field.
	All right, a quick question for you.
	You said black on the bottom and metallic or silvery on the top.
	That could not have been an artifact of lighting.
	In other words, the light would have been obviously above it.
	So you don't think the bottom might have been silver as well and simply dark?
	No, no.
	Very clearly black.
	All right, so it was that close.
	Yes, and clear in my binoculars.
	I could see it very well.
	In fact, when you looked at the bottom, and it turned itself kind of upward so that you could see the bottom clearly, there were no discernible features other than a very thin silver ring all around the black.
	And then when it would turn the other way so that the top surface, the silver metallic surface, was facing you, you could see the entire metallic surface.
	You could see the sun reflecting off of it.
	and you could see features, one of which was a very subtle cockpit that was sort of oblong in shape
	that actually came to kind of a point on one end. And you know, you could tell that there were
	shapes and different surfaces on the upper part.
	Any way you could make a guess as to the physical size compared to, say, an airplane?
	You know, like a commercial jet, a 727, whatever?
	Sure, yeah.
	The problem with that is that by not having any grasp of what this thing really was like, I mean, if it were a 747 flying by, you could say, well, it's three miles away, or it's ten miles away, or something like that.
	That's a good point.
	But, because it has no real, there's no way to judge its dimensions, I could only take a look at it from the viewpoint of where I stood relative to the river itself, and also its elevation above the ground, its apparent elevation.
	Of which you would guess to be what?
	The way I described it is more in degrees of elevation.
	I'm a sort of amateur astronomer, you know, so I kind of think about the sky in terms of how many degrees from horizontal upward do I look.
	And so it was up about, oh, maybe 20 to 25 degrees vertically.
	Right.
	Above the ground.
	So if the distance that I was guessing it at to be, you know, six, seven miles, maybe something like that.
	OK.
	It would have to be above 10,000 feet, I would think.
	Alright.
	But I don't... Those are just very speculative numbers, and I wouldn't want... No, those are all good answers.
	So, you watched this for a total of how long?
	Oh, I actually recorded it, or I mean watched it by watch, you know, for about 20 minutes, but I'd actually been seeing it probably 5 or 10 minutes before that.
	So probably a total of about 30 minutes.
	30 minutes.
	And during that time, it did what?
	Remain relatively stationary?
	Was it moving, sort of going back and forth?
	Or doing what?
	Well, it seemed to be in a holding pattern, as if it were waiting.
	You know, in fact, when I first saw it, I thought perhaps it was an advanced aircraft that was kind of linked up with the air show.
	And it was just sitting off in the distance waiting for the control tower, you know, to give the signal to come in and do its stuff.
	That'd be logical, sure.
	But, you know, the airplanes left, the boat races started up again, and nothing ever happened other than this thing just stayed out there at this fairly high altitude and fairly distant position.
	And, again, it maneuvered in such a way as if the pilot were practicing or something.
	No, he'd kind of slide up in a curve that would turn the bottom up towards us and then he would turn over and the top would then be pointing towards us, you know.
	He just kept kind of going around in a pattern as if he were exercising this machine to, you know, really enjoy its ability to fly.
	And the whole thing, the whole pattern, tended to drift slightly to the east.
	Over time, and I'd say in a matter of, oh, the 20 minutes or so that I observed it, it probably moved, oh, maybe 5 to 10 degrees to the east in azimuth, you know, so it did move slightly.
	You're obviously a very astute observer.
	What do you think you saw?
	Well, you know, I've given that a lot of thought and I've talked to people and I've explained to them what I've seen, you know, and I think it's one of three things.
	It's a possibility that it does really, it is a real alien craft of some sort that, you know, comes from some other dimension or whatever.
	That's one possibility.
	The second possibility is a balloon that someone has built a model of some sort that is powered and And can maneuver in this strange pattern, you know, being held up by air buoyancy.
	But at the distance, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt your third one, but at the distance you described, that would have been some big balloon.
	That's exactly why I don't really count that as a very viable option.
	And number three?
	Number three is that it's an advanced military craft of some sort that is being tested and people practice with it, you know, and they do it in odd places that Don't normally see much air traffic, and this would be an ideal place.
	The place that I would have located it on the map, if I were to put a mark on there, is over an area called the Horsehaven Hills.
	It's a very remote, rural part of the country.
	There's very few farms out there.
	It's mostly dry land farming, and population centers are none.
	There's no cities.
	There's no villages.
	find out there you know so it would be a good place to practice it
	if you wanted to kind of the off the beaten path well i'm given but you know uh...
	if you're an extraterrestrial craft and you don't want to be seen
	g if you're a area fifty one type secret craft and you don't want to be seen
	in either one of those cases the last place you'd want to appear it seems to
	me would be a case into an air show where everybody be looking at the sky
	What do you think?
	Well, you know, that's a good point.
	The only thing I'd say is that if you didn't know where to look for this craft with the naked eye, you'd probably never see it.
	You wouldn't have seen it.
	It was too far distant and you know with my binoculars they are very high quality and so when I spotted it the guy that was kind of standing there with me I had him take a look through the binoculars and I said you know I can't figure out what this is what do you think and he looked at it and he said man I don't know and we both kind of looked at it then with our naked eye and when you knew exactly where to look in the sky you could see the black How big was it relative to how big a star would have been in that part of the sky?
	off it, you know, and he both, I looked at him and he says to me, man that thing is really
	up there.
	And so he had the impression that it was a long ways away and very high.
	So you know, the regular casual observer at the boat races, I doubt would have ever seen
	it.
	How big was it, Steve, relative to how big a star would have been in that part of the
	sky?
	Was it that size?
	Oh yeah, it was bigger than that.
	Like, for example, if Venus were up or something like that, you know, and it was dusk and you could actually see the disk of Venus, this would be, oh, at least twice the size, maybe three or four times the size.
	Okay, pretty good size.
	Excuse me, for something to hover for 30 minutes, if it were man-made, That is a long time for an object to stay more or less motionless in the atmosphere.
	They can do it.
	Helicopters can do it.
	But when they do it, they burn a huge amount of fuel.
	For example, a helicopter probably would not hover at high altitude.
	I could not see anything in the way of a wake Or like thermal heat trails or anything like that because a lot of times when you look at a plane as it disappears horizontally away from you, you can see the heat distortion in the sky.
	And you could not see anything like that around this object.
	It was clear.
	It moved with grace and smoothness.
	It wasn't unstable in any sense of the form.
	It had a very controlled attitude.
	It was just amazing to watch the thing.
	I've never seen anything like it.
	I've been observing this guy ever since I was a kid and I've never seen anything like it.
	I'm just stunned about this thing.
	Well, as I've said to others, welcome to the club.
	You've seen either, I think, a U.S.
	government secret project or you've seen an alien craft, one of the two.
	Whichever it turns out to be, it's going to be a gigantic story.
	For example, if we've managed to defy gravity finally, that's a pretty big story, wouldn't you say?
	I would say.
	We have heard the latest in this dark energy theory that is floating around.
	Oh, you betcha.
	Listen, buddy, thank you.
	We're at a wrap point here for this hour, but Steve, thank you for coming on.
	OK, well, thank you very much.
	Right.
	Take care.
	And Peter, of course, hang tough and we'll be right back.
	All right.
	My guest is Peter Davenport, who for years has been listening to reports, actually, like the ones that you're hearing tonight.
	Thousands and thousands of them.
	We've got one more witness coming up shortly and then we're going to broaden the discussion and it's going to be a tough one into ufology in general.
	Be it sun or sand, smell or touch, the sun think.
	Inside that we need so much.
	The sight of a touch, or the scent of a sound, or the strength of an oak when it's deep in the ground.
	The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
	Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing.
	To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sting.
	We grab all these things in our memory's hall and we use them to help us survive.
	We're gonna make it through.
	Ride, ride my chisel Take this place, on this trip
	Just for me Ride, take a pillow
	Take my horse, up by the sea It's for free
	Wanna take a ride?
	To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at Area code 775-727-1295
	The first time caller line is Area code 775-727-1222 To talk with Art Bell from east to the Rockies, call toll free 800-825-5033.
	From west to the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
	International callers may reach Art by calling your in-country Sprint Access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll free 800-893-0903.
	From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	Wanna take a ride?
	I snagged that, as you know, from... maybe you don't know.
	All of that snagged from one of the greatest movies ever made, in my opinion.
	Contact.
	What an incredible motion picture that was and is, and I can watch it again and again.
	Contact.
	Perhaps what many of us are waiting for.
	Because they are out there.
	Remember the movie Contact?
	All those suns, all those planets, all of that out there, what a terrible waste of space it would be if there was no life.
	Well, surely there is life.
	And maybe that's what those things are flitting about in our skies.
	That's what we're talking about.
	Peter Davenport's devoted the best part of his adult life to the study and reporting and Collation of all this material on these things in our skies.
	We'll get right back to it.
	Maybe you've never seen one.
	I have.
	Most Americans have, but that doesn't mean you're one of them.
	I would imagine the audience is probably, I don't know, split.
	How many people in the audience, percentage-wise, Peter, do you think have seen a UFO?
	There have been a number of polls done on that, Art, and all of them seem to suggest that about 30% of all adult Americans believe that they have had an overt sighting of a UFO.
	A third?
	About a third.
	You think that would carry worldwide in all probability?
	Based on the international conferences I've attended, and all the lectures from other UFO investigators around the world, I have to say yes.
	Yeah, a third of the world's population has seen something that doesn't belong in our skies.
	Well, one of the most famous of all incidents that occurred, occurred over the city of Phoenix, and it occurred while I was on the air.
	The Phoenix Lights case, so-called.
	Well, Peter, you want to explain?
	You were telling me on the phone before the program, a lot of people don't know about the Phoenix Lights, or seemingly so.
	That's right.
	In fact, what has given rise to my inviting our next guest on the program tonight, even though this case is seven years old, About two weeks ago, I was talking to a journalist out in the Midwest.
	Works for a major newspaper.
	I'm going to go easy on him tonight, I guess.
	I won't name the paper, and I won't name the journalist.
	But he professed to be knowledgeable in the field of ufology.
	He was very interested in it.
	He was writing an article, and he had called me.
	He and I talked for about 40 minutes.
	During the course of that conversation, Art, I alluded to the Phoenix Lights case, and he said, what's that?
	Now, Coast to Coast and its host back in 1997 had this case before, I don't know how many listeners you have, but many listeners within about an hour of the end of what I consider to be the most dramatic UFO event.
	Dramatic and overt UFO event that we are aware of in the field of ufology.
	Objects one to two miles in width, and we'll return to that issue of size in a moment with our guest, went over the city of Phoenix, and they were over that city for an estimated hour and a half.
	I asked myself, how can it be that people still are not aware of what happened over Phoenix just about seven years ago?
	I'll never forget that night as long as I live.
	You and I talked a couple times before we went on the air with that case.
	You had gotten some reports, too.
	Absolutely.
	They began to flow in here, sure.
	Hundreds of thousands of people in the Phoenix area saw those objects.
	Our listeners, I suspect we have perhaps a different group of listeners than we had seven years ago, probably more listeners.
	Probably more, but millions both times.
	I mean, a lot of listeners.
	But some people who may not have been tuned in seven years ago on the 13th of March, that Thursday night, and I thought it would be very interesting to bring on to the program, not just an eyewitness, but a woman who, in my opinion, one, had one of the most blatant views, one of the most dramatic views of one of, we don't know how many objects went over Phoenix, but several that night.
	She had a dramatic view of an object that came across Camelback Mountain in the north and hovered over her and her four children.
	For approximately five minutes.
	Now, it might be worth mentioning, the military, I believe it was, sort of debunked or tried to debunk this by talking about flares, right?
	Absolutely.
	Flares, that was what they had to... I mean, they had to say something.
	This was too big, so they had to say something, and they said flares.
	Now, with that in mind, let's turn up the pot and say, yo, Sue.
	Hello, Sue.
	Sue is there.
	I know she is, Sue.
	Yes.
	Ah, there you are, okay.
	With that in mind, the notary said, well, it was just some flares.
	Perhaps you could tell us what you saw.
	I saw a very, very large vehicle, because it wasn't flares, coming over Camelback Mountain.
	We were actually leaving the house at the time, and we saw it coming over, so we called the rest of the kids out.
	My daughter had seen it first.
	And we were all going out together that night, so my other daughter from the house came out, and my two sons came out, so there were five of us in my family that were in the front yard, and we were just watching it, assuming that everyone else in the city was seeing the same thing.
	And what were you seeing?
	We saw this incredible lit up vehicle, you know, an aircraft, Coming over Camelback Mountain, my home is approximately a mile and a half south of this mountain.
	So we could see it coming slowly over the mountain, and it had bright lights in front.
	I think it was maybe five huge bright lights in front.
	When you say vehicle, Sue, do you mean you could make out the shape of the craft, whatever it was?
	Absolutely, it was a shape.
	And its shape was what?
	It was similar to a very huge kind of boomerang shape.
	It kind of had a point in front, but it was a curvy point.
	And it was very, very, very wide.
	So we saw it from the front at first.
	And again, it had these bright spotlights on the front.
	And so we continued to watch it.
	My two sons actually laid on our front yard grass.
	on today that that it was too cool you have to be watching them wasn't traveling as quickly as
	for example in airliner would
	now now actually could be
	uh...
	playing coming behind calabash man if you can't get them in our side so if you know it was so
	much bigger than that and that's what i'm going to go slow
	So we just kept watching it, again, assuming everyone else in Phoenix was watching the same thing.
	And then it was coming over our home because it was in the path.
	We're in the path south of Camelback Mountain.
	And it was going ever so slow.
	And we could see the whole structure then from the bottom.
	You know, we're looking up underneath the vehicle.
	Can you describe what you saw?
	It was very lit.
	It had a lot of lights underneath and I remember we just thought it was incredible that we could see all of this.
	It had lights like surrounding the whole outside of it.
	But it was a definite, and I want to say, when I say boomerang, I mean it's a very large, it was very wide and very Can you even guess its size?
	Tip to tip, wingtip to wingtip, whatever you want.
	Boomerang end to boomerang end.
	I know.
	I can't other than I know it had to be, it sounds silly, almost several football field size.
	Oh, that's quite all right.
	Actually, your report coincides with many others that saw an object that was extremely large or several of them.
	So, uh, it just flew directly over, or, I, I, flew is the wrong word.
	You see, with, with the UFO I saw, I described it as floating, not flying.
	Flying requires enough air to be going by wings to support it in the air.
	What I saw didn't do that, and it sounds like what you saw wasn't doing that.
	Right.
	Floating is a good term, and there was absolutely no noise.
	It was amazing that we could watch this, again, a solid You know, and I call it a vehicle because I don't know what else to say.
	It was an aircraft, solid piece of aircraft that was moving together.
	We could see the underneath of it and it was, like I say, lit up around the outline of the vehicle.
	And, you know, it was so incredible.
	We're all waving.
	You know, the kids were waving at it, you know, just like, this is amazing that we've never seen anything like this.
	That's exactly what it is on the news that night.
	Alright, that tells me something right there.
	If the kids were waving at it, you don't do that unless something is really close, like a helicopter or an airplane is really low, so low you can almost look into the cockpit and see someone.
	I mean, that's when you start waving, right?
	Right, right.
	It was just, it was that, it felt that close, it felt that.
	You know, exactly.
	It was over us and we thought, oh, this is amazing.
	And like you say, it was kind of floating.
	There was no rush to it.
	And no sound.
	Huh?
	No sound.
	No sound.
	That's what was most fascinating.
	Right.
	So then either we have to have a lighter than air vehicle or we have to have something which is evading normal gravity.
	And then this item, this craft then I guess passed by and then you also then I guess saw USAF, you know Air Force jet fighters take after this thing?
	I think other witnesses saw that.
	I saw, I did not see that.
	I actually saw a very strange sight from the front of the right of the vehicle and that was a laser that kind of went down toward The middle of the city, which I thought was just, it just kind of went, I kind of screamed when it happened.
	Oh my gosh, did you see that?
	I was not the one actually that saw the aircraft.
	Oh my gosh is right!
	You saw a craft and then a laser down in the middle of Phoenix?
	Yes.
	Oh my God, I mean that's like something out of a, I don't know, some invasions movie or something, you know?
	That's incredible.
	It was incredible.
	It was incredible and we got to watch it For over five, I'm sure it was over five minutes.
	It took a long time to go those two miles we were watching.
	Yes.
	What did you think at the time?
	I know you're in a kind of a state of shock, but I mean, you see a laser go down.
	And what do you think, that we're under attack?
	Did that occur to you?
	Or what did you think was happening?
	You know, we weren't fearful at all.
	That's amazing.
	Oh wow!
	and again that we can't wait to hear what that black you know sir
	uh... and i think that naming again in a big city like phoenix
	a lot of people are going to come out and tell us on the ten o'clock news
	exactly what we were watching Sir, Phoenix is 2 million plus now, isn't it?
	Exactly.
	Big city.
	Right.
	And where it went over was a very populated area.
	And I know people, you know, unfortunately we didn't have anything to take pictures because we were just out in our yard watching it.
	But people actually took videos of it from other angles.
	Oh, yes.
	Oh, yes.
	Well, when you turned on the 10 o'clock news, Sue, Well, what were they saying?
	Nothing.
	Nothing?
	I don't remember anything.
	I actually called our main news station that we watch, and they didn't know what I was talking about.
	And I got frustrated, so I called the airport.
	And actually, that's how I got Peter's number.
	Uh-huh.
	So the airport gave you Peter's number.
	Yes.
	Well, shows that's working, Peter.
	Yeah, we're pretty well known down in that neck of the woods.
	You are an American hero in my opinion.
	You're one of the best witnesses that we've been able to identify from that incident that Thursday night back in March of 97.
	But I have a specific question.
	My objective in having you on this evening is to lay to rest for the many, many people who are listening to us tonight.
	Lay to rest once and for all for those listeners we have as to whether this object that went over your head and I think you've answered the question already could possibly could possibly have been Venus as some people have suggested or could possibly have been those military flares 80 miles to the southwest of Phoenix over Gila Bend firing range or could possibly
	have been the Canadian aerobatic team, the Snowbirds, as has been suggested.
	What would your reaction to those proposals be based on what you and your two sons and two daughters saw that night?
	Remember, this is family radio.
	I know.
	Well, immediately when you were saying it again, I just almost want to laugh.
	I mean, I want to laugh because those are the most preposterous descriptions of what we saw.
	It was a A vehicle that was flying over our house very slowly.
	It was not separated in any kind of... It was not flares.
	It was... No.
	It was a solid unit.
	It was... It was a aircraft with lights around it that was very much together and very close.
	And very close.
	And very, very, very large.
	And again, just assuming that everybody was going to be able to tell us on the news.
	We did not feel like we were anyone special that night that we thought everyone was going to be talking about it.
	And that it was going to be something that was going to be explained on the 10 o'clock news.
	I mean, that is so how we felt.
	We weren't careful.
	Okay, Sue, how was the follow-up coverage?
	I mean, they did finally, of course, cover it.
	There's so many weird things about the media reaction to the Phoenix Lights, and we'll talk about that once Sue's gone, but I'm curious about the local coverage there in Phoenix.
	Obviously, by the next day, it was too big a story for Phoenix to be ignoring.
	There was some coverage, just that there was, you know, it was almost making fun of people for spotting it.
	Oh, really?
	It was kind of silliness.
	Oh, really?
	Oh, it was more the weatherman actually reported it, I think, more than the main news person.
	And can you believe that this was seen?
	And, you know, what was...
	You know, there was a lot of jokes more about it than any kind of seriousness.
	Oh, really?
	What was in people's water?
	Oh, great.
	And it was insulting, and the kids didn't want to talk about it.
	They all were in school at the time, and no one wanted to talk about it.
	You know, they were embarrassed, because they're like, well, do we tell anyone we saw it?
	You know, because all of a sudden it became kind of a joke.
	But I did not, it wasn't even majorly covered.
	I mean, I never thought national coverage come months later from what I remember.
	Well, actually, you're exactly right.
	Months later.
	That's one of the oddest parts of this whole story, but I'm telling you, I get these computer messages, my computer went nuts, email went nuts, telephones went nuts, and I'm sure for Peter, things went nuts up there.
	Right, Peter?
	It was like mayhem art.
	Five calls a minute from the Arizona area.
	Oh yes, yes indeed.
	Just pouring in here.
	It was of that magnitude.
	Something gigantic, or many gigantic things, passed directly, straight over a gigantic American city, Phoenix.
	And we knew about it, and of course I guess people would contact us, but there had to be, oh, police officers and air traffic control people, and there was Sue, and how many children, Sue?
	Well, I have seven, but there were four out in the front yard with me.
	You have seven children?
	Yes.
	Wow.
	Four of them were out there.
	How old were they?
	I remember seven years ago, they were anywhere from 22 years to 11 years.
	Oh, so there were some good observers there.
	And when the rest of you got together, you know, as a family afterwards, and obviously you're going to talk about this a little bit, right in the beginning at least.
	We actually went in and drew it together because I had called about it, and we decided we better put it down on paper.
	So you drew it?
	Yes, what we saw.
	Peter, do you have those?
	That was the first written report we received, Art, from all of the hundreds of witnesses we talked to last night.
	Sue's was the first written report, which she faxed to us that following Sunday, the 16th of March.
	I see.
	Well, I agree with Peter.
	You're an American hero for coming on here, Sue, and most people wouldn't.
	Thank you, and you bet something happened over Phoenix.
	I want to thank you for being here, Sue.
	Oh, you're welcome.
	You're welcome.
	Good night.
	Thank you so much.
	Good night, Peter.
	Good night.
	Right.
	There's no question about it.
	These are heroes, Peter.
	These folks are doing what a lot of people, even most people, just wouldn't do.
	They wouldn't risk it.
	All right.
	Hold on.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	My guest is Peter Davenport, and we're talking about UFOs.
	Now that you're gone, needles and pins, Why that you done, watching that car,
	Till you return, Biting that door, and watching it burn.
	Now it begins.
	You've seen and you talk about anything.
	He's got this dream about buying some land.
	He's got this dream of buying some land He's gonna give up the booze and the one night stands
	He's gonna give up the booze and the one night stands.
	And then he'll settle down in this quiet little town And forget about everything
	And then he'll settle down, it's a quiet little town, And forget about everything.
	But you know he'll always keep moving You know he's never gonna stop moving
	But you know he'll always keep moving.
	Cause he's rolling, he's the Rolling Stone When you wake up it's a new morning
	The sun is shining it's a new morning You're going, you're going home
	Do Trump with Art Bell Call the Wildcard line at area code 7.
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
	To talk with Art Bell from East of the Rockies, call toll free at 800-825-5033.
	line is area code 775-727-1222. To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free
	at 800-825-5033. From west of the Rockies, call Art at 800-618-8255.
	International callers We really do have that kind of coverage.
	We're literally talking to the world.
	Print access number, pressing option 5 and dialing toll free 800-893-0903.
	From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	We really do have that kind of coverage.
	We're literally talking to the world.
	And so talk to the world is what we'll do about ufology and with Peter Davenport who's
	been taking reports on this all his adult life.
	We're going to have a pretty good discussion on ufology in general in a moment.
	It was Thursday night, March 13th, 1990.
	I was on the air doing this program, which was certainly at that point well Defined in the sense that we look at paranormal phenomena, we look at ufology, we look at things that other talk shows don't look at.
	That's all there is to it.
	I mean, we were defined as that kind of program then and certainly are now as well.
	Well, everything went nuts!
	I mean, it went totally nuts!
	Something gigantic passed over one of the largest cities in the United States, Phoenix.
	It's well over two million in population now.
	Something really major occurred over one of our biggest cities.
	It went berserk here.
	It went berserk where Peter is.
	And then something really strange happened.
	It was like the cone of silence descended over the entire happening.
	I mean, yes, there were reports in Phoenix, and of course we screamed our heads off on the radio, but nationally, not a whisper.
	A week went by, two weeks, three weeks, four weeks, five weeks, I forget, God, it was two or three months later, all of a sudden, one night, on ABC and NBC and CBS and everywhere, just like it had happened just that minute, That all the nightly news reported on the Phoenix Lights and what had happened in Phoenix Lights.
	Somebody threw some damn switch somewhere and it was time to report on this.
	I've never seen anything like it in my whole life.
	Peter, a lot of time has gone by.
	Can you explain that now?
	No.
	Art, it is still as big a mystery today to me what happened in response to that event as it was back then.
	I remember the day.
	Of course, the Phoenix Lights, as you pointed out, was March 13, 1997.
	The big article that hit USA Today was on Wednesday, the 18th of June.
	So, it's more than two months.
	Yeah, there you are.
	Three months.
	What am I saying?
	A quarter of a year has gone by.
	That's right.
	There was an article that appeared in USA Today.
	I happen to have been on my way to the East Coast.
	If I'd known what was about to happen, In the press over the Phoenix Lights case, I would have stayed at home.
	I would have just canceled all my appointments on the East Coast.
	Sure.
	Because it was like the dam burst.
	Yes.
	As a result of one article in USA Today by, I think the gentleman's name was Richard Price who wrote it, or Mr. Price anyway.
	And suddenly everybody in the world had to know what was going on or what had taken place in In Phoenix, that was when Governor Symington, I think it was Friday the 20th of June, when Governor Symington paraded that poor, helpless employee out on the stage in Phoenix, the guy was dressed in an alien suit.
	And Governor Symington said they finally had the answer to what had happened over Phoenix three months earlier.
	Yes.
	It was just nonsense.
	People seem to think that the interesting part of my job is the UFOs.
	I don't think so any longer, Art.
	The most interesting part of my job is the human psychology I see, but even more than that, the response of our society to the UFO phenomenon.
	I sit here day in and day out taking data, as you know, and I am incredulous.
	I can't believe it!
	That the press is not addressing this issue the way, for example, Coast to Coast has addressed it.
	Squarely, honestly, but they won't touch it.
	Not the way they did back in the fifties.
	When I was a kid, you probably remember as well, it was frequently the case that newspapers and radio stations would report UFO events.
	Today, not at all, except in local press.
	They will handle it.
	In fact, they clamor for information.
	I get calls all the time from local and regional newspapers wanting to know if a UFO event has occurred in their area.
	They're doing a program or rather they're doing an article, preparing an article, and they would like to know what's happened in their locale.
	Well, I point out to them that the locale is unimportant because we appear To be dealing with objects that can travel at certainly thousands and maybe tens of thousands of miles an hour.
	So it is more logical to ask if anything has happened anywhere in the world at about the same time as another event.
	Well, one might speculate that local press would not be controlled.
	If you want to believe the conspiracy that the national press is controlled, Then you might, by extension, believe the local press is not so well controlled.
	Yes.
	The only bone I have about all of that is that nobody's ever tried to control me.
	Yes.
	And we're definitely national, but then again, maybe we're sort of pigeonholed away as that UFO show.
	I don't know.
	Yeah.
	And handled that way.
	And maybe the rest of the national press is somehow manipulated.
	What's your best guess about that, Peter?
	I have ruminated on that issue for decades, Art.
	And I agree with you.
	The press is a lot of people.
	How do you control tens of thousands of people?
	It's very, very difficult.
	It's hard to control one person, but... Well, I can tell you one way it could be done.
	I mean, at radio stations across America, and television stations for that matter as well, the basic news source, Peter, is the wire.
	And for all the years that I've been in radio, when you get the news, you run into the other room and you rip five minutes of news off the Associated Press or UPI or whatever it is you're getting, and you read it.
	That's it.
	And that's how, if you were going to control it, it would have to be at a wire-type level.
	And that's how it all begins.
	AP lets a wire story go, and it goes from there.
	So, you could imagine Do you, Peter?
	Sure.
	That is clearly the case.
	I think the same thing has happened to journalists that has happened to light astronomers.
	It used to be the case that astronomers would sit out at night, sometimes with their telescope, looking at the night sky, recording the things they saw, and so on and so forth.
	Not any longer, for most of them.
	Most of them, the grad students, sit down in a basement in front of a computer and they tap out a command that goes to some light telescope halfway around the world and they get data coming over their computer.
	Well, that is very similar, in my opinion, very similar to what has happened to members of the press.
	They sit in front of their computers, they wait for the wire feed.
	Our press has become principally a business, principally a commercial process, whereas I think a hundred years ago it was principally a process to inform the American people.
	Well, it has become a business, Peter.
	It's more infotainment now than it is hard news.
	Oh yeah.
	Now that's another issue is the blurring of the distinction between the news and entertainment.
	Yes.
	But you see, Peter, though, this kind of story, you would think, as we move into the world of infotainment, and by that we mean sort of the chuckling newscasters, we mean magazine-type programs, you would think that these types of programs would clamor to get something, you know, like a UFO story.
	Absolutely.
	When you look at the tripe that they trump up into these Stories that we see night after night after night that mean absolutely nothing and do nothing constructive for the American people or their nation.
	I agree with you.
	Something like the Phoenix Lights, they yawn and go back to sleep.
	And in that case, it's very important to understand that it wasn't a case of the press failing to cover it.
	It was a case of the press refusing to cover it.
	For example, you mentioned the press.
	Friday morning, the 14th of March, 1997, I spent hours calling every newspaper that I could think of off the top of my head in the United States.
	All the papers in Seattle, the Los Angeles Times, I called the Arizona Republic, I called newspapers on the East Coast, the New York Times.
	My phone bill shows these calls clearly.
	Nobody was interested Nobody, absolutely nobody, returned my call.
	What in heaven's name is going on?
	This is unbelievable, and I would hearken back to our last witness, Sue Watson.
	Very clear thinker.
	I don't think she really communicated to the audience as clearly as she could how big that object was above her house.
	It was five widths of her fist, side by side.
	Above her head.
	Between 100 and 120 times.
	The diameter of a full moon.
	That was the width of the object.
	Well, you know what?
	It did come through to me.
	The minute she said that her children were waving, that did the trick for me.
	Because you don't do that until you're close enough that you think you can see someone through a little window.
	Or someone, if they were looking, could see you that close.
	That's just the normal human reaction.
	You don't wave until it's that close.
	Yep.
	That's right.
	We have reason to believe that that object may have been at about 10,500 feet above their head.
	Then it would have been monstrous.
	It was monstrous.
	In fact, either that object or one somewhat similar to it was seen perhaps 10 or 15 minutes later going southwest down over Interstate 10 that leads from Phoenix down to Tucson.
	And it straddled the highway so thoroughly that the people on the left side of the vehicle were looking at one wingtip of the object out the left side of their car.
	The people sitting on the right side of the automobiles were looking in the other direction at the other tip of the object as it moved over them seemingly slowly.
	The object was over their heads.
	Many of them reported for between one and two minutes as it moved the opposite direction.
	And journalists still, still are, when I call them, when I talk to them, when I give them data for their articles, when I ask them if they know of the Phoenix Lights case, they profess total ignorance on the subject.
	I don't understand how that can be.
	We live now In a different era.
	The era changed after 9-11.
	You know, the world changed.
	And now we have Homeland Security, we have radar sweeping our skies, we are alert to almost every airliner's path, or we're trying to be.
	I mean, they're just totally freaked out on the subject, and rightfully so.
	So you would think that any object that, for example, would be seen on radar, if they're seen on radar, would get really quick scrutiny from the Air Force, you know, and people with shoulder-fired missiles and whatever all.
	I'm hearing they're doing all kinds of wild stuff now.
	So the world should change out there a little bit with regard to UFOs, shouldn't it?
	I mean, they're going to be regarded as at least hostile and dangerous to American interests?
	Absolutely.
	And in fact, this happened over Washington, D.C.
	I believe I remember the date.
	It was July 26, 2002.
	About 1 o'clock in the morning, our four F-16 fighters went out of Andrews Air Force Base, which is just, as you know, about 20 miles or so east or southeast of Washington, D.C.
	Right you are.
	You may remember the incident.
	I do.
	I remember reports of it, yes.
	When an F-16, when any fighter plane goes out of an Air Force base on the afterburner, it wakes people up for counties around.
	It's just loud.
	Yes.
	And people were awakened out of sound sleep that morning, 1 a.m., probably the 26th, I think it was the 26th of July 2002, people got outside in time to see these F-16s going over their heads at relatively low Altitude.
	I say relatively because it's the objective of most fighter pilots when they take off to get to altitude as quickly as possible to conserve fuel.
	Get up where the air is thin.
	Sure.
	These F-16s were going right over people's houses with their afterburners lit and the people who got out quickly enough saw a bright red light on the nose of the lead F-16.
	Now, I just talked to Joan Woodward who is an investigator for MUFON back in Maryland just two days ago when she and I were talking and she has now found that there appear to be anomalies in the records that were kept by the military and by civilian airports by the FAA for that particular day.
	Anomalies?
	Anomalies.
	What sort of anomalies?
	I'm hesitant to talk in any great detail because She said that she was still collecting data, but she found that there were gaps in the data that would leave a reader with the impression that absolutely nothing had happened during that day and at that time.
	I actually talked with a gentleman who works in FAA headquarters who was very circumspect with me and very cautious with what he said, but he admitted that he knew of that case.
	And he would say no more.
	The question is, in my mind, with regard to this case I'm discussing, is whether there might have been an AWACS flying over the Washington DC area that got the whole thing on radar.
	Now, this is the most troubling aspect of ufology to me, Art.
	Really, you said it earlier in the program, an hour ago or so, how many more of these Sightings and sighting reports, and how many more witnesses do we have to parade out on programs like this before it doesn't do any good to do it anymore?
	Well, I think we're almost there now.
	I feel that too.
	We're going to have to...
	We in Ufology are going to have to graduate from what we've been doing for the last 56 years.
	But how do you graduate from that if you're not given more?
	You can only go get what they'll give us, apparently.
	Because if they're there, they're that far ahead of us.
	So we get what they give, and what they give is endless eyewitnesses.
	People are just seeing these things everywhere.
	Everybody sees them, but allegedly our government employees and members of the press.
	I don't understand.
	But some of these, you and I have done some really dramatic programs in the past.
	Sure, you bet.
	With dynamite, I mean, airline pilots, FAA air traffic controllers, shortly after the incident, they admitted they were flabbergasted.
	We've had the best of the best.
	I think so, too.
	What we're going to have to do is start going after the press and becoming really aggressive with them.
	But the one that really worries me is our government on this one.
	Whenever anybody lies to you, and I may err in using such a harsh term, but the federal government has been lying to the American people for over half a century with regard to the subject of UFOs.
	Do you recall Representative Schiff?
	I certainly do, the late Representative Schiff.
	And do you recall the search for the Roswell records?
	And do you recall the answer that was given to Representative Schiff that, son of a gun, All of those records somehow have been mistakenly erased or are missing.
	Yeah.
	Absolutely.
	All of the records of what happened at Roswell, they're missing.
	Our government has now entered in the era in which it is treating us, at most, at best, like children.
	We're just here to pay the taxes and let our official leaders, at least in their minds, Make all of these decisions for us.
	And not only do I object to it, Art, I find it to be dangerous.
	How can the American people accept that answer?
	That for the most famous UFO case in all written modern history, the records, well, they're missing.
	How can people accept that?
	Unless, unless, Peter, they accept The fact that it's all being covered up, and the American people have simply come to the point where they accept that, and so when they hear all the records are missing, they just, I don't know, they just, like, sigh and go, you know, internally, mentally, yeah, they trashed it, you know, I mean, after all, Rosemary Woods, uh, she did what she did, it wouldn't be very hard for the government to do what they do.
	And they just accept that.
	Alright, hold on, Peter.
	My guest is Peter Davenport.
	We're having a talk about ufology and UFOs in general.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
	The official website of Coast to Coast AM is www.coasttocoastam.com.
	Log on now!
	No, no, no, no, no Ooh-ooh-ooh
	I'll tell you once more Before I get off the floor
	Don't bring me down You want to stay out with your fancy friends
	I'm telling you it's gotta be the end Don't bring me down
	No, no, no, no You want to stay out with your fancy friends
	I'm telling you it's gotta be the end Don't bring me down
	No, no, no, no, no Ooh-ooh-ooh
	I'll tell you once more Before I get off the floor
	Don't bring me down Don't bring me down
	Don't bring me down 🎵 🎵 🎵
	It may still have time, we might still get by.
	Every time I think about it, I wanna cry.
	With bombs in the depot, little kids keep coming.
	No way that we'll be easy, no time to be young.
	To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
	To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll free at 800-825-5033.
	From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
	International callers may reach Art by calling your in-country Sprint Access number, pressing
	option 5 and dialing toll free, 800-893-0903.
	From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	Good morning.
	Breaking news, everybody, at this hour from CNN.com.
	A huge car bomb kills 18 in Iraq.
	At least 18 people were killed.
	Two U.S.
	Department of Defense workers, 16 Iraqis early Sunday when a suicide car bomber detonated his bomb outside the coalition headquarters, right outside coalition headquarters in Baghdad.
	According to U.S.
	military sources, this was a gigantic bomb A military spokesman did not say if the Defense Department workers were soldiers or civilians.
	Captain Jason Beck of the 1st Armored Division said about 28 others were wounded, most of them Iraqi civilians.
	He said the wounded included a U.S.
	soldier with non-life-threatening injuries, four U.S.
	civilian contractors, 23 Iraqis, at least one of them a member of the Iraqi Civil Defense Corps, Video showed at least three cars on fire, several civilians lying on the ground and bloodied.
	U.S.
	troops and tanks were on the scene and gunshots could be heard in the background.
	in a moment back to peter davenport i believe peter and i agree and uh... i i i have nothing in
	the world against ufo reports are talking to witnesses on the air and these
	were particularly good ones tonight
	Nothing in the world against it, but I have been listening to UFO reports, intently listening, because of all of you, for all the time that I've been doing this program, and that is now many, many, many years, and the same goes for Peter Davenport, and so we have to find a way to move to the next level to try and answer this question at the next level more reports interesting always but it isn't going to help us begin to answer the really profound questions that are associated with this phenomena and they are profound questions and I guess we have to talk about our government we have to talk about our government I just read a bulletin about Iraq whether you are for or against the
	Iraq invasion and now occupation.
	You have to wonder, as many people are doing right now, how the decision to invade Iraq was made.
	A lot of controversy about that right now.
	And I guess you have to wonder about how a lot of decisions in government are made.
	Huh, Peter?
	Yeah, you sure do, Art.
	And I couldn't agree with a statement more thoroughly than I do with what you just said.
	You know, I have to be honest with our listeners.
	I've gotten to the point where I don't even like to listen to UFO reports anymore.
	I don't know how many tens of thousands of them I've taken since July of 94 when I took over this hotline, but as many of my friends know, I no longer care to listen to them.
	I invite people to write them down, and in a sense, the Internet, I believe, has saved my life, Art.
	In other words, people can make written reports on the Internet, and this is in no way to take away, because I understand I've heard them all.
	Somebody's seen something, Peter.
	The adrenaline goes.
	They've got to talk to somebody.
	They've got to find out.
	They've got to satisfy the mental itch that's now been created.
	And so there you are.
	And I can understand what you just said about not even wanting to hear them anymore.
	I've heard them all.
	I've heard all facets of them.
	People say, wait a minute, you've got to listen to my report because you're the UFO investigator
	And I say, no.
	The problem with listening to a report over the telephone is, after the person has told me the report, then two people know about it.
	But if they write it down and we post it to our website, we're getting up to 200,000 people a day coming to our website to read the report.
	About one or two percent of those people are logging in from .gov addresses.
	Oh really?
	Oh no kidding?
	Oh yeah.
	Dot-gov.
	A lot of people in government are interested in our cases.
	You know, I sit up here, not only do I take cases, but I ruminate on this subject aggressively.
	This is an intellectual challenge for me to explain what is going on with regard to UFOs.
	I am a person for whom it is a given That UFOs are present on this planet, and I've posted 27,000 reports to our website, many of which I think, any one of which, would support my statement.
	But I've gotten to the point where I'm now wondering, what is the significance of all of this?
	Sure.
	And how are these, I presume, aliens we're talking about, how are they manifesting themselves on this planet?
	Are we to believe that they just fly by, go streaking by in the atmosphere, pull back up into space, and they're gone?
	Possibly, but I don't think so.
	Now, I'm the first to admit that terrestrial logic, the type of logic that you and I as human beings on this speck of sand have grown up with, does not apply.
	It doesn't necessarily give us any hint As to how aliens from other parts of our galaxy or universe would think.
	But it does not seem logical that they would come all this distance from another star or another galaxy, just whisk by for a matter of a few seconds and be gone.
	Doesn't make sense.
	And the other, well, here's the other thing that doesn't make sense, why we gotta talk about government.
	We all know they're here, we have sightings, ad nauseum.
	They're here, I mean, come on, they're here!
	We don't have to prove that.
	It's just a fact.
	And so our government, particularly with Homeland Security and with all the awareness going on, and long before the need for all of that, because of the first terrorist act, our government is damn well aware of what's going on, one way or the other, whether they're the source or whether it's aliens, and I suspect it's aliens, at least some of the time.
	Some small percentage of the time.
	I've heard enough to believe that.
	Then our government also has to know.
	As a matter of fact, they know a hell of a lot more than we do, Peter.
	Oh, yeah.
	Absolutely.
	So, at what level do you think they know?
	Do you think that our current elected government, for example, the officials that we elected are aware of all of this?
	Absolutely.
	I think every president since Truman, for sure, maybe even including FDR.
	Including Jimmy Carter?
	Absolutely.
	In fact, I am sitting here looking at my bookcase art, looking at the encyclopedia of UFOs by Ron Story that has a copy of Jimmy Carter's written eyewitness account of the UFO he saw when he was a governor of Georgia in 1969.
	Well, that I certainly recall, but I mean, do you think he was Officially briefed, or do you think that President Carter, who was regarded by many in the military industrial establishment as not military friendly at all, was kept out of the loop?
	My suspicion is a president would have to know.
	It takes me back to that scene in Deep Impact where there's this The President of the United States has this epiphany when he discovers that his advisors have not been squaring with him with regard to this issue of aliens and UFOs and so on and so forth, but for some reason, and I anguish over this all the time, some reason, a series of presidents now have all consented to not even talk about this subject.
	That worries me profoundly.
	And let me cut right to the issue that worries me the worst, Art.
	This is my greatest concern.
	We know that these aliens have a profound grasp of technology.
	Their ability to manipulate matter information and energy goes beyond anything we can imagine as mere terrestrials.
	When they do so, it looks like magic.
	Is there anything, I ask myself rhetorically, Is there anything that would prevent them from participating in our society in one way or another without being seen, without being detected or detectable?
	And I have to conclude based on the fine work of People like Dr. David Jacobs and Bud Hopkins, John Mack, John Carpenter, people who specialize in the abduction phenomenon.
	By the way, you're laying some names in front of us who disagree with each other on basic issues.
	That's true, that's true, but they all seem to agree that the alien phenomenon, or UFO phenomenon, which appears to me to include aliens, and I'll come back to this issue in a moment, is real.
	And it has a real effect on some human beings.
	We don't have any idea today how many people have been in proximity to aliens or been affected by them one way or the other.
	We're at the very, very beginning stages of our study of ufology.
	All of these reports that we have taken, all of it amounts to nothing but hearsay information.
	And we're only just awakening as a planet to the presence of other intelligent, I believe, intelligent life forms in our galaxy.
	But the thing that concerns me most of all is the possibility that these creatures, their presence here, has had an effect on our government or governments on this planet.
	And I have to say, when I look at some of the things that our government has done Even done to the American people.
	I get really alarmed.
	The debt.
	Debt, in my mind, Art, is tantamount to, it is a mild form of slavery, and I'm not sure actually it's so mild.
	When I look at the intrusion into personal lives, particularly since 9-11, as a result of the Patriot Act and the Patriot Act Reborn, I get very troubled Because these are things that are being promulgated by public leaders who took an oath to uphold the Constitution, not to rewrite it, or re-engineer it, or dilute it, or whatever they're doing to it.
	Well, they of course have to balance that against the safety and welfare of the people they took the oath to protect.
	I completely understand that.
	I don't think strip searches of older folks at airports ...is providing us with a wits worth of added security, however.
	I am cognizant, in the background, there is the risk, there is the reality that we're dealing with people who would do us immense harm if they got an opportunity to do so.
	There are some ghastly weapons around, we all know that, that could re-engineer our society.
	But I think we have to be very cautious about what we do to the Constitution and all of those constitutional rights, which, after all, we are told are inalienable.
	They cannot be taken away from us.
	And I, for one, am a very alarmed citizen, and I think we have to be very cautious with this federal government.
	Well, maybe the terrorists understand all that.
	In other words, they understand that they will end up doing us in.
	From their perspective, no matter what.
	Because whatever they don't do, we will do to ourselves.
	And some of our listeners may be saying, good heavens, who is this guy Davenport up in Seattle?
	After all, he's only a UFO investigator.
	What does he know about government?
	Many of our listeners may not know.
	That I have run for public office, ran for Congress.
	I was a declared candidate for Congress in 1992 from the 1st District in Washington.
	Right.
	Before I became a, let's say, a prominent UFO investigator, I was quite active in politics.
	Ran for the legislature, Washington State Legislature.
	Know many people who hold office.
	And I've studied the subject.
	So it's not as though I'm a rank amateur in this field.
	But what worries me is the possibility that some of these things we see happening in our government could in some way be related to the UFO phenomenon.
	I would like to qualify that statement or corroborate it in the following respect.
	You may recall, I think it was back in 1998, when I reported for the first time publicly the fact that I had been approached by some people in the U.S.
	government They held very responsible, or very... positions of considerable responsibility in our government, I think is the proper way to state it.
	I met with them on the 14th of May, 1997, back on the East Coast.
	They requested my presence.
	They called me up, they said, Peter, we know who you are, we've heard you on the radio, we've seen you on television, we've been to your website, we've read all of the cases there.
	We would like to have a sit-down meeting with you.
	That meeting did take place, as I reported, on coast-to-coast.
	Remind everybody of the agenda.
	The agenda was, they had a specific interest in all of those cases that we had posted to our website that pertained to the alleged presence of a UFO in proximity to a commercial airliner.
	After all, this was only about ten months after the tragedy of TW800 off the coast of New York.
	And that appeared at the outset of what was to have been a one-hour meeting.
	In point of fact, it went to four hours non-stop, Art.
	So I conclude from that fact that they clearly were getting information that they found interesting and that was worth their while.
	Halfway through that meeting, Art, one of the individuals present turned to me and this individual said, Peter, we have a special question for you.
	And I can almost I can almost repeat the question verbatim.
	Please, go right ahead.
	He said, in all of the data you have collected that we see on your website, is there anything that has given you the suspicion that there might be someone working inside the U.S.
	government in an extra-constitutional fashion, that is the term he used, relative to the UFO phenomenon?
	Now, the people who have heard me before on this program, who know me up here in Seattle, and you, most of all, know that I rarely have any difficulty in expressing my opinion or speaking my mind.
	This was one incident in which I was almost stunned to silence for, I estimate, three to five seconds.
	Saying to myself, good mother of all creation, if you people do not know the answer to that question you've just posed to me, what in heaven's name hope do we have?
	Now, I don't know.
	It took me a couple days to realize that they might have been testing me.
	They might have been setting me up, trying to figure out if I'm one of these people who subscribes to conspiracy at a wholesale level.
	Well, I don't, although I do believe that this government is keeping things from us.
	They're lying to us.
	They're certainly, with respect to the UFO phenomenon, they are not being honest with the American people.
	Few Americans could be left these days who do not believe that government lies to us.
	It's like part of the job description.
	Job title.
	That's right.
	They do lie to us.
	I mean, just face up to it, folks.
	I, too, used to believe that every word from the FBI, every word from our president was like 24-karat gold descending on us.
	The absolute, unadulterated truth.
	Well, the only part of that that I believe in now is the adulterated part.
	So, yes, they lie to us, and they probably, almost definitely lie about What we have in our skies, which means they know a whole lot more about it than we do.
	How much do you think they actually know, Peter?
	Do you think, for example, they've met with alien races?
	I can only but conjecture, Art.
	My suspicion is they have, but it's only a suspicion.
	When we sat down for this meeting that I've been describing here the last several minutes, they said, Peter, Our listeners who remember my first broadcast on this point can go back to the original program and see how accurate I am.
	They identified themselves, Peter?
	Oh yes, I knew who they were before I arrived at the meeting.
	You know I'd like to know who they were?
	I think many people were, and I would love to reveal who they were, but they requested anonymity, and that is the foundation of the National UFO Reporting Center.
	Was there any question in your mind, Peter, that they were officially there?
	There was some.
	There was some question with regard to that issue.
	It was almost as if it was a meeting as an aside to get real information to supplement the information that was flowing in official channels They wanted to know about UFOs and commercial airliners.
	They must have suspected that you somehow knew more, that you were keeping something off your website.
	Otherwise, why contact you?
	It's all there on the web.
	They must have suspected that you had some, perhaps, smoking gun kind of evidence.
	Or, I don't know, let me think about it.
	This is really very interesting.
	Why would high government officials come and see Peter Davenport lest they thought he had evidence he hadn't made public yet?
	Maybe hard evidence.
	Maybe it was just a worry check.
	You know, kind of a worry check.
	We're worried he might know more than he's got up on his website.
	Let's go pay him a visit and see what he knows.
	What do you think?
	I can't survive, I can't stay alive without your love.
	Oh baby.
	My man, at Malilu, the Pope is deep surrendered.
	Oh yeah, and I have left my destiny in quite a similar way.
	And you still have to go through the same thing.
	I'm not going to let you go.
	in my face. Finally facing my war. I tried to hold you back when you were stronger. Do talk with Art Bell. Call the
	wildcard line at area The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
	To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll free at 800-825-5033.
	line is area code 775-727-1222. To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free
	at 800-825-5033. From west of the Rockies, call Art at 800-618-8255.
	Peter Davenport is here, and we're talking about UFOs.
	country's front access number pressing option 5 and dialing toll-free 800 893
	0903 from coast to coast and worldwide on the internet this is coast to coast
	am with art Bell it is Peter Davenport is here and we're talking about UFOs
	however perhaps I don't know from a slightly different perspective
	Maybe a more jaundiced one.
	I think a lot of you out there are frustrated with the whole subject the way both Peter and myself are.
	And I mean very seriously frustrated.
	It's a profound, important subject.
	I mean, if we're being visited, if our skies are full of things from elsewhere,
	or very secret things that we don't know about that our government has,
	either way it's a pretty big story, I'd say, wouldn't you?
	Sound of explosion Our government. I'm...
	I don't know how to crack that shell.
	I don't know how to get in there.
	I don't know how to get the information.
	Even if I decided to devote my life from this moment forward, you know, whatever it took to try and go get it, I don't know how to do that, Peter.
	Yeah.
	I don't either, except to say, Art, that there's no substitute to just simply rolling up your sleeves Becoming a candidate, and what we have to do is sweep out the old entrenched guard that have led us to this catastrophe that, in my opinion, our country faces.
	A $25 trillion debt or unfunded liability.
	People always talk about the $6.5 trillion accumulated debt on the budget.
	What they often don't recognize is that people are now talking about the unfunded liability of Social Security.
	That is, how much they expect they will have to pay out in the future versus how much they expect to take in.
	The difference is the unfunded liability.
	It's like looking at your children's college education six or eight years in the future.
	Yes, I notice our president is about to make an announcement, I believe, probably in the State of the Union, maybe later.
	That people should be given the opportunity to opt out of the standard social security fund and put their money into other things, you know, like securities and stuff like that.
	And I wondered at the time why he would say something like that.
	I wonder what he knows that we don't.
	Wouldn't they love that?
	Some of those people stepping out of the system so they are no longer financial liabilities to the system.
	Something like that.
	What worries me is these deficits You know, we are projecting a $480 billion deficit in this fiscal year.
	It's important to put that into perspective.
	I'm going on memory now, but Jimmy Carter's last Christmas tree budget, after he had lost to Ronald Reagan in 1980, was about $365 or $370 billion.
	That was his budget.
	about three hundred and sixty five or three hundred and seventy billion
	that was his many of the people who are in congress today
	decried this spend trip How could a person possibly spend that much money?
	Those very same people who were criticizing President Carter's alleged profligacy routinely today sign off on budgets in the vicinity of 2.2 to 2.4 trillion dollars.
	Budgets six times larger.
	The deficit of this fiscal year is going to be bigger than Jimmy Carter's last budget.
	Well, in a lot of investigations, Peter, it's well said, follow the money, right?
	So if you jump back to ufology for a moment, or what our government might be doing in secret, one might say, follow the money.
	But you see, you can't do that, because that's the only money in the world you can't look into.
	Yeah, the black budget.
	You can't look into the black budget.
	That's right.
	They don't even tell you how much.
	In fact, we're looking at yet another of the, in my opinion, many, many pitfalls of big government.
	Once government gets to a certain level, and I think we're there in this country, trying to combat it is like trying to punch the ocean.
	It happens at the company level.
	Companies get to a certain size, Peter, and the bureaucracy It eventually tumbles itself through inaction.
	I mean, it just becomes an unworkable mass and collapses in on itself.
	And that can happen to governments as well.
	For my money, one of the most productive, one of the most interesting academicians of the 20th century was Peter Drucker, who studied organizations.
	And he discovered that they're all pretty much alike.
	A military company or platoon is not much different from a church social in an organizational standpoint.
	How they operate, how they grow, how they fall apart, how they support themselves, what they do after they reach a certain size, and so on and so forth.
	One of the things that Peter Drucker looked into, and I studied this when I was a business student, MBA student, about 20 years ago, He was a fascinating man and he did some fascinating work, real insight into how the world really worked.
	One of the things he addressed, I seem to recall, was the issue of leadership.
	I was enthralled, I was fascinated to discover that we really don't know what constitutes leadership in an individual.
	Some people are charismatic, they're good looking and they're leaders, other people Are even better leaders and they don't have any of those visible assets.
	We really don't know what a leader is.
	But there's one thing that Peter Drucker identified that leaders cannot do and still remain leaders indefinitely and that is lie to their subordinates.
	Bingo!
	Peter, you said church groups.
	You mentioned church groups.
	Even at the church group level, Peter, look at what happens.
	And all of you out there, I know, can relate to this, because you probably belong to some organization, if not a church organization.
	It doesn't matter.
	Any organization, the same things occur.
	Little political groups and cliques form.
	and power is sought through backwards means sometimes and secrets are kept from other groups because you dislike that group over there they don't agree with you for whatever reason I mean this is normal human nature in any gathering or group or company or then extended all the way up to the size of government and human nature folks that's what we do and so you can be sure our government keeps Lots of secrets and lies to us.
	Absolutely.
	It is the most worrisome part of a government.
	They get to a point where they are cynical.
	They no longer are accountable.
	I think either consciously or perhaps subconsciously they recognize that they're no longer responsible to the people walking on the city streets for my money are The most blatant example of this is the Congressional Retirement Fund.
	In my opinion... It's the nature of power, Peter.
	It's the nature of power.
	It does corrupt, you know, an old saying, but it really does.
	Eventually, you forget your constituents, you get carried away with your own power, and you become part of a clique.
	You know, how do we break into that, Peter?
	That's a big question.
	How do we get to the next level with ufology?
	How do we get to the secrets?
	How do we do it?
	If we really want to, how do we do it?
	Well, we need leadership.
	We need a sense of resolve on the part of the American people.
	People have to step forward to run for office, and we've got to get... In fact, we don't have to replace the entire Congress.
	Interestingly, if you get just 15 or 20 or 25 people in Congress who are like-minded, acting in concert with one another for the betterment of this country, they can, for all intents and purposes, control or at least vastly influence a lot of what goes on there.
	Well, that's a nice dream, but I mean, how many stood with Stephen Schiff, you know?
	Yeah.
	How many rallied behind him and wanted hearings, and what do you mean the records are gone?
	You know, when a president said that, we had, oh man, we had Watergate here.
	It was just a mess, right?
	Yeah.
	But how many stood?
	Not many.
	Even Barry Goldwater had difficulty when he went to General Curtis LeMay and said, Kurt, what's the truth about the UFOs?
	And Curtis LeMay responded that you as Senator, Barry, are not senior enough to know the answer to that question.
	And I ran into a gentleman down in Arizona, Carefree Arizona.
	I've got that on tape.
	Who knew Barry Goldwater quite well.
	They were colleagues in the state legislature and Barry told him that story enough times so he's convinced it's true.
	So what we have to do is get control of the Congress and can start controlling the dollars that flow through there and put the military on war.
	Those people who make these decisions, who keep these secrets from the American people, some, of course, we have to keep.
	That's the nature of military preparedness.
	Yeah, I'll buy that.
	But I think I used to work in a top secret capacity in the U.S.
	Army.
	I have seen it from the inside as well.
	And most of the nonsense that is classified really is nothing but bureaucratic momentum.
	It achieves very little or nothing.
	I worked in that capacity for four years and I was horrified by the inefficiency of it thirty years ago when I was in the Army.
	It's probably gotten many times worse.
	Probably has.
	I just don't realistically see, though, I mean, what you're talking about is a grassroots effort in a community right now, Ufology, that is so split in itself that it can barely function, you know, with people screaming and yelling at each other and dire disagreements and boy, threats going back and forth, and let's face it, Ufology's, you know, pretty much a mess.
	Yeah, it certainly is.
	So from that, how do you spring a grassroots effort to get the American public to elect enough officials to force the truth out?
	I just don't see it.
	Well, I'm not sure that ufology by itself is going to be a sufficiently strong or mobilizing pretext to get a lot of people elected to public office.
	In fact, it's probably not a very good one.
	We really don't know much about UFOs.
	But there are a lot of people out there who just don't run for office because it's such an unpleasant process.
	One of the things I said, this was 12 years ago when I was a declared candidate for Congress.
	It was my opinion, it still is Art, that we have the same problem with candidates for public office, selecting them.
	That we have With candidates who apply to become prison guards or candidates who apply to become law enforcement officers.
	Namely, you've got to screen them very carefully to make sure that you don't get people in the population who are there for the wrong purposes.
	And we don't seem to do that in a very discriminating fashion, in my opinion, in this country.
	Most of all, because most people don't vote.
	I've got many, many friends in the Seattle area, ranging from their twenties to their seventies, and people appear to have given up with regard to wanting to have any role in selecting public officials.
	This is scary to me.
	Alright, here's one for you, Peter.
	I vote in local elections.
	Um, you know, for example, watching the Democrats right now, in Iowa, about to happen, that's big news, right?
	Um, I find myself intensely unexcited about who it is who's going to be the Democrats' nominee, and then the presidential race, and whoever it will be that wins.
	I guess I have lost a little bit of hope that there would be any change.
	Old boss, new boss, same as the old boss kind of thing.
	I don't think that at that level, I hate to say this, I don't feel like it makes a lot of difference.
	I have the same feeling.
	These people are talking about whether they can rein in a $2.4 trillion budget by maybe one-tenth of one percent.
	My response to that budget is they ought to cut a third out of it.
	A third.
	And I'm confident that they could do it.
	And it wouldn't harm the nation in the least.
	In fact, people often say, well, how could we possibly survive without all this government spending?
	Well, if you were doing the cutting and doing the budgeting, Peter, would you or would you not include money to build a base on the moon and then maybe go to Mars?
	Yeah, that's a good question.
	That's why I asked it.
	Yeah, I'm intrigued by the space program.
	I mean, it's good technology.
	We've got wonderful state-of-the-art scientists doing all of that.
	But when I look at the problems on this planet, overpopulation, our energy problem, clearly, clearly in the near future we've got to get away from petroleum.
	And we could be spending that money on issues that are Much higher priorities with regard to survival, the survival of our race, and the comfort of many people on this planet.
	I take that as a, I wouldn't have that in my budget.
	I would be willing to push it back a few decades until we get the budgets under control, until we get some other issues resolved that I think are much more important to the future of this planet.
	That's right, I guess my answer is yes.
	I would cancel those programs.
	Wow.
	I would engage in a lot of astronomy, near-Earth work, but sending men to Mars is an extraordinarily expensive venture.
	I've heard people talking about half a trillion dollars for a trip like that.
	Yes.
	Plus, let it be said that the way technology is unfolding, Art, we saw an unprecedented explosion of technology over the last hundred years.
	I mean, a hundred years ago, first airplane flew, obviously.
	A hundred years ago, first trip across this country in a car.
	The next hundred years is going to be even more breathtaking if we can keep things together, if we don't blow ourselves to smithereens.
	Consequently, we have no idea what those new technologies will allow us to do much more cheaply, much more efficiently, Just as the computer has allowed us to reduce the amount of diesel fuel and cast iron, we have to throw it a problem today.
	Actually, you know something, Peter?
	When you think about it, you mentioned the last hundred years, right?
	Yeah.
	One might even suggest, and it's hard to get a historical view when you're in that time, and we're in that time of this accelerated technological adventure we're all on but but you know historically when people look back on it don't you think they might say hey you know maybe the obelisk came down about a hundred years ago and we just didn't see it.
	In other words, history will view this period of time as so odd as to prove intervention of some sort.
	How could we have come this far in a hundred years?
	I look at my society today and I'm overwhelmed by how odd some aspects of it are, many aspects of it are.
	I wouldn't be surprised if people look back on it and recognize how odd it is by some kind of absolute standard, some absolute measuring stick.
	The one thing we can't predict is the direction that technology is going to take, or our society in general.
	And I think we can forego some of those space projects you allude to.
	I don't think we have to send men to Mars, not given the number of problems we're facing with pollution, maldistribution of wealth.
	That's one of the things that can really threaten Well, I've changed a lot, Art.
	I just had my 56th birthday last Sunday.
	and the poor getting poorer.
	Well, I know that was a hard question for you to answer.
	I mean, really, in a lot of ways, maybe the toughest I could have asked you,
	because everybody, of course, would expect the exact opposite answer, I would think, from somebody like yourself.
	Well, I've changed a lot, Art.
	I just had my 56th birthday last Sunday.
	I am struck by how different many of my attitudes are today than they were just ten years ago.
	video.
	Capital punishment, case in point.
	For probably the first 40 years of my life, I accepted it without really thinking about it, without really challenging it.
	And now, I am very uncomfortable with the notion that the government, a government, any government, is empowered to take the life of one of its citizens.
	After all, that legal system is intended to protect society, not to extract a pound of flesh.
	Well, we're pretty far adrift here, but that's a very interesting statement, and I might be very interested in taking you on with regard to that a little bit, because I think there are crimes that justify the death penalty.
	I really do, and maybe some crimes that would shock you.
	But that issue aside, we'll get to the phones shortly with Peter Davenport.
	Now, what I want to do, I want to be very specific about what I want to do.
	I don't want to take report sightings.
	I want to talk about the general state of ufology and the knowledge that our government probably has and how you feel about all of that now, instead of reports.
	That's what we're going to be looking for when we get back.
	day right where you are.
	I'm gonna be there.
	I'm gonna be there.
	Oh, miracle.
	Oh, it was beautiful, magical.
	And all the birds in the trees, they'd be singing so happily.
	Oh, joyfully.
	Oh, playfully, watching me.
	But then they sent me away, teach me how to be sensible.
	Logical, irresponsible, practical Then they showed me a world where I could be so dependable
	Oh, clinical, oh intellectual, cynical There are times when all the world is steel
	When questions run too deep For such a simple man
	Oh, please, please tell me what to learn I know it sounds absurd
	I know it sounds absurd, but please tell me who I am Sometimes the music says it all
	Please tell me who I am Sometimes the music says it
	Why would you say that we're calling you a radical A labyrinth of a magical criminal
	Oh, won't you sign up for me? We'd like to be your acceptable
	Respectable, all presentable, a matchable Oh, tick, tick, tag me on
	To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 7
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
	To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll free at 800-825-5033.
	From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
	International callers may reach Art by calling your in-country Sprint Access number, pressing
	option 5, and dialing toll free, 800-893-0903.
	From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	It is most tempting...
	To take Peter on on the death penalty issue.
	That'd be fun.
	But that'd be, I guess, sort of another show.
	So instead, what I'm going to do is let you Take on Peter, one way or the other.
	If you have questions, comments about ufology, remember, we're not taking UFO reports.
	We're not doing that.
	We're talking about ufology.
	Our government's part in all this, the secrecy, how we ever get to it, whether we ever get to it, whether we should get to it, and what it would mean if we did.
	All of that kind of thing is what I want to talk about.
	If you have questions, comments in that area.
	And those were the numbers, and here we are, and we'll be right back into it!
	Pshh!
	Well, that was intriguing, eh?
	A machine just... stomped.
	Ha ha ha ha ha!
	Fascinating.
	Ah, well.
	Live radio.
	Alright, once again, Peter Davenport, and Peter, there are a couple of things that I know you want to promo, and so, buddy, here's where we stop for a moment before we go to the phones.
	And let you promo them.
	You're going to be appearing in public, are you not?
	I am indeed.
	In fact, I'm looking forward to it very much, Art.
	I've been invited to speak up in Friday Harbor on San Juan Island in the state of Washington this coming Friday, 7 p.m.
	at the Mullis Center in Friday Harbor, but where it is is really not important.
	Friday Harbor is not that big.
	Very interesting group of people up there have invited me up thanks to some of the work of some of my friends up there and promoting this.
	And the subject material?
	The subject material will not be politics.
	As much as I've been talking about them for the last hour, it will be UFOs.
	I've got an all new presentation and we'll be touching on some of the more dramatic reports
	that have come into the center during my nine years of tenure here and should be a good
	show.
	A lot of interesting people there.
	I'm putting on a presentation Friday night at 7 o'clock downtown Friday Harbor and then
	a repeat performance the next day at 1 p.m. for those people who prefer not to go out
	at night.
	So the Mullis Center in downtown Friday Harbor and really looking forward to it.
	There's some neat, neat people up there, and I'm looking forward to meeting them.
	All right.
	I'm sure it'll be full.
	Seating limited to about 150, right?
	That's the case, and probably tomorrow or the day after we'll be putting contact information on our website.
	People can go directly there, find out more.
	Get particulars on how to get tickets or how to get there.
	All right, and also now this is a kind of a breakthrough.
	You've been invited to talk to the Seattle Times to have a sit down with them.
	Oh, yes.
	Now, I'm curious.
	I'm sure by now you've formulated what will be your agenda in that meeting.
	How will you approach them?
	I'm curious.
	I want to know.
	Well, I think I'm going to pull all the stops.
	Honest with them, whereas during most of my presentations are, in the past at any rate, I have focused on the more dramatic cases that have come into us.
	The Phoenix Lights, of course.
	Sure, sure.
	The 70-foot disk that went over the Bangor submarine-based nuclear weapons storage center five years ago.
	You and I did a program on that one night.
	Things like that.
	I think what I'm going to do is focus on those cases in which The press has intentionally, apparently, not covered really dramatic UFO events to allow these people in the Seattle Times to see how often really good news gets lost in the process.
	Yes, and do you think the Seattle Times will report on the press not reporting?
	I had not thought on that, but I'm not all that hopeful.
	Well, it'll be interesting.
	We can all watch and see now.
	Then there's one more here.
	The annual International Symposium of MUFON?
	MUFON, their annual symposium that's going to be held in Denver, Colorado this July 16th, 17th, and 18th.
	I was deeply flattered two or three days ago to be To have been invited to be one of the key speakers there this year.
	I'm really looking forward to it.
	It's going to be a great conference, and I'm already mentally preparing an all-new presentation to share with the people there.
	I'm going to be talking about all sorts of things, not just cases, but some of the things I see in the future for ufology, some of the things we can do, and so on.
	All right.
	Well, I guarantee the folks on the phone have lots of good questions, so let us begin.
	First-time caller on the line, you're on the air with Peter Davenport.
	Hi.
	Good evening.
	Good evening.
	It's a pleasure to be on the show.
	Thank you for having me.
	Peter, let me preface my call by saying I am not a religious zealot or anything like that.
	I do believe in a higher power, and I have just started reading the Bible in terms to get my own perspective on things.
	I was wondering how Ufology addresses the topic of religion.
	Oh, what a very, very good first question.
	Wouldn't you like to give me a simple question in lieu of that one?
	No, that's a really good one.
	Let's dig into that.
	How do you think, right now, religion is handling it and or were i guess more
	importantly if a major event occurs an undeniable smoking gun
	they are here event how do you think it will be handled yeah uh... interestingly i'm approached by a lot of people
	who are members of churches or in religion in one respect or another
	and they to my great pleasure they are much more in free by this question
	of u f o's them would have guessed some people of course interpreted as being
	demonic Other people say, well, there could be good aliens and then bad aliens.
	After all, when you wander into the forest, what are the animals like?
	Well, many interpret it as demonic, Peter, more than you would imagine.
	Yeah.
	But when you walk into a forest, there are many animals.
	Some are good.
	I mean, butterflies are not a threat, whereas Bengal tigers you want to avoid.
	Yes.
	The one thing this job has done to me, I mentioned earlier, it has changed me in many respects.
	One is that it has made me much more interested in questions of religion, questions of morality, philosophical questions such as what are we doing here, why are we here, whence have we come, and what is the relationship between us as mortals on this planet And these creatures that seem to come here, but which do not want to be seen by human beings on this planet, is it that we are some kind of incubator on planet Earth?
	There was an abduction scenario reported up in New Hampshire in 1962, in which a seminary student was abducted.
	He was taken aboard a ship, and he went up to a larger ship, what he was told was a mothership.
	And he asked the occupants there, why are you here?
	And he alleges, he has reported in his written report, that he was told that the aliens are interested in the issue of soul.
	They can manipulate matter, they can create organisms, but they are intrigued by the issue of soul.
	Now, that is an immensely interesting response.
	But I find that I'm becoming much more interested in questions like that than I am in taking my next UFO report.
	That's a very good question by our listener, and I think we could do a program, actually, on the issue of the relationship between religion and ufology.
	There are a lot of paths we could follow with that one.
	There sure are.
	Alright, Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Peter Davenport.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hi, I have this question for Peter.
	I've worked in defense for quite a long time, and I can barely hear him.
	I can barely hear him too.
	Are you on a cell phone, sir?
	Yeah, do you hear me now?
	Yeah, go ahead.
	You've worked in defense for a long time, as in for our government.
	Yeah, yeah.
	I was just wondering, you've been researching UFOs for quite some time, UFO phenomena.
	Yes.
	And you haven't come to the conclusion yet that some of the greatest minds on this planet are actually Working on these projects?
	All right.
	Peter, you've been working in the field all this time.
	Have you come to the conclusion, he said, that some of the greatest minds on our planet are working on this problem?
	On the issue of ufology?
	Yes.
	He seemed to suggest by the manner of his question and the tone that he was aware that this is the case and he claimed to have worked for the government.
	My suspicion is that the government clearly To get to the bottom of the UFO technology would hire the very best scientists and technicians they could possibly find to crack this technological nut of how they propel themselves, how they power themselves, and so on and so forth.
	I would tend to agree with the gentleman's implied suggestion that there are a lot of talented people working in the field of ufology Most of them for the government, I suspect.
	But that's pure conjecture.
	I guess what I'm saying is, if I were running the country and I were charged with the responsibility of unraveling how these craft, and I think we are dealing with craft, how they are powered, how they are controlled, and so on and so forth, I would get the very best scientists I could recruit from around the world and put them on the problem.
	I suspect we've been doing that for the last 56 years, ever since Roswell.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Peter Davenport.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	Good evening.
	Hi, this is Bob calling from Dayton.
	Dayton, Ohio.
	Okay.
	Hey, Bob.
	I really believe, and I get evidence of this every day, the people I talk to and things like that, I really think that Society is shaped in a certain way, and I think the government takes advantage of that.
	I see it.
	I talk to people every day.
	I ask them questions and things like that, and people really just are not fascinated anymore.
	Nobody's really free-thinking.
	Okay, that's wonderful.
	We can take it from there.
	I think, Peter, he's saying, politely he was saying, That people aren't thinking for themselves anymore, that they're a bunch of sheep, and they just sort of get caught up in day-to-day living, and they don't follow the workings of our government or care very much, he was suggesting.
	They just really don't care.
	Yeah.
	Again, it leads us away from ufology, but of course I did that during the last hour of my time.
	Not necessarily, Peter.
	Not necessarily.
	I mean, it applies to ufology.
	As it applies to other aspects of what our government is doing.
	Just as an aside, you know Tip O'Neill once said, he said, all politics really is local politics.
	In my opinion, a logical corollary to that statement is that all ufology is political.
	Ultimately, it leads right to the centers of power in our government.
	But I think what the caller It's very easy in a culture as complex as ours where we are overlaid with so many responsibilities everywhere from balancing your checkbook to getting your kids through college that the easiest way through this intimidating forest of responsibility is to sort of conform
	And try to avoid hitting the trees squarely on and trying to slip between them as you go through the forest.
	The other thing he said was that people just, it's not possible to shock them anymore.
	And he's got a point there, too.
	Boy, he certainly does.
	When I look at the entertainment industry, there seems to be no limit to the bludgeon that they will use in stunning the people who consume that entertainment industry, entertainment product.
	I agree with him.
	We all are in a condition of overload, and it sometimes worries me.
	I'm in the process of trying to move out of the city here, or move out into a quieter spot, because I recognize exactly what this caller is talking about.
	It's very easy to be just inundated in this society, and you sort of lose certain elements of your individuality.
	The caller has some very good insight into what's going on.
	Yeah, and indeed he does.
	I mean, this would be, if you consider the majority of society to be this way, it would be a very easy society to manipulate.
	Oh, yeah.
	Very, very easy.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Peter Davenport.
	Hi.
	Hi, Mr. Bell.
	Hi, Mr. Davenport.
	Good evening.
	I can barely hear you.
	Okay, can you hear me now?
	A little bit better.
	All right.
	This is Fred up in Anchorage at 650 KENI.
	Well done.
	Okay.
	I hope I can get all these out really fast.
	I just want to reiterate what that guy was saying, the last caller.
	The reason I think UFO sightings are not taken seriously is because they put them in a category like a A Jerry Springer topic, you know.
	Sure.
	And then also, you're going to have to help me out here.
	Is it the stealth bomber?
	B-2 bomber?
	Yes, what about it?
	And the other one that looks, that has that one wing type of airplane?
	Well, I remember that they kept that secret for like 12 to 15 years before they unveiled it to the public.
	Sure.
	So I'm pretty sure we got something far more advanced than that.
	Yeah, I think so.
	If you project what was kept secret from us then and simply project forward to now and imagine that much ahead, then yes, you're right.
	Right.
	And one other thing, I just want to say, I personally think there are far more intelligent life out there than us.
	I think they come from galaxies.
	Well, all right.
	Thank you.
	You know, you remember Contact?
	I mentioned that earlier in the program.
	I'll just never forget it.
	I mean, in that movie, toward the end, they looked up and they said, look, all of those stars, all of those suns with planets revolving around them, countless numbers.
	If there isn't life out there, what a great waste it would be.
	Well, there is life out there.
	Absolutely.
	I suspect, based on my work, Based on the diversity of craft and aliens that are reported, that we probably live in a galaxy that is not just teeming with life, but may well, probably is teeming with intelligent life.
	Yes.
	That is my suspicion.
	I do not have proof for that statement, of course, though.
	International Line, you're on the air with Peter Davenport.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	This is James calling from Texas on KLIF.
	Hi James.
	All right.
	Okay, UFO and what the government knows.
	The thing that really puzzles me is that they taught from day one that you look out into the sky and you see all these stars and around those stars are planets, yet they've never seen another planet.
	They have this new technology.
	They can say that the stars are wobbling.
	And through that they can detect the presence of planets.
	They can detect the presence of something.
	If it's starlight dancing, I don't know what it is.
	Well, they seem to firmly believe they're planets.
	So, your point?
	My point is that I don't believe in aliens visiting this planet.
	I think it's like a spiritual being Or, possibly, it is the U.S.
	government with high-tech equipment and new technology and... Why do you dismiss the possibility of people from elsewhere?
	Well, it's just... Yes?
	At this point in time, the laws of physics does not... Support it.
	Okay, hold on, that's a worthy point, and we'll address that when we get back.
	From the high desert in the middle of the night, which is exactly where we ought to be.
	This is Coast to Coast AM. I'm Mark Bell.
	Coast to bottom tide.
	It's 2 a.m.
	and the figure is gone.
	It's 2 a.m.
	It's 2am, very long, I'm waiting for the air, the sun is still warm
	I'm not making a plan, I'm taking a chance Yeah, the storm won't loose, sunbeams in my head
	I'm inside a small circus in ten, can I be cold?
	My whole life spins into a frenzy And my breath is to the twilight zone
	And this is the madhouse, it is not to be called I'm the wind, the moon, the moon and the star
	Where I'm to go, now that I've grown too old To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at...
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
	To talk with Art Bell from East of the Rockies, call toll free at 800-825-5033.
	line is area code 775-727-1222. To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free
	at 800-825-5033. From west of the Rockies, call Art at 800-618-8255.
	International callers may reach Art Bell by calling your in-country Sprint Access
	number, pressing Option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
	From coast to coast, and worldwide on the Internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	In the middle of night, here we are.
	We're talking about ufology.
	We're not taking reports tonight, no specific reports, but instead we're talking about ufology as it relates to government and the great secrecy that would have to be kept.
	And a sort of a general discussion of ufology.
	If you'd like to join that, pick up the telephone, because here we are.
	From Seattle, Washington, where I guess he's not going to be very long, here's a short
	Here's Peter Davenport once again.
	Where are you going to?
	Are you going to head to the hills of Idaho, Peter?
	What are you going to do?
	Well, I don't know yet.
	Perhaps down to Oregon, maybe out to eastern Washington.
	I'm looking at a piece of land out there.
	I'd just like to get out of the cities, Art.
	I understand perfectly.
	It's just an urge I have.
	I'd like to live somewhere where I can have my own Well, you don't have to walk your dogs on a leash, and you can see the stars at night, and things like that.
	Those mean a lot to me.
	Me too.
	Difficult to do in the city.
	Yes, it is.
	I'm thinking of moving.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Peter Davenport.
	Hi.
	Hi there, gentlemen.
	First off, what is Mr. Davenport's web address?
	All right.
	A reasonable question.
	Your web address?
	Absolutely.
	Our website address is simply www.ufocenter.com.
	Thank you.
	Second question.
	What are your thoughts on published stories like Above Black?
	For my spare time, I like doing puzzles.
	Puzzles that cause me to, you know, put stuff together, you know, not only just physically but also mentally as far as particular orders.
	Throughout the short time that I've been sort of fascinated and inquiring into this subject, I've seen common threads.
	You've got this above black gentleman who claims to have been from NSA and have been, you know, in some Project Preserve Destiny situation.
	You've got reports from our own astronauts, you know, coming around from the dark side of the moon saying, you know, Santa Claus lives on the moon.
	You know, as well as, you know, my own observation, you know, if you want to observe a country, you would look at its highest level of government.
	And why not, if you were trying to observe a planet, From its highest vantage point, which wouldn't be a mountaintop, which would be its satellite, like our moon.
	Okay, so I guess he's asking, if I caught all that fairly well, what you think about, for example, there are people, above black is just one, there are many such things, the internet, as a matter of fact, Gee, if you start on research into this, you're going to run into a billion different groups.
	Oh yeah.
	How many of them do you think are legitimate truth seekers, Peter, versus science fiction buffs?
	Well, there are two issues there.
	One is whether the people in the field of ufology are offering new information or unique information, or whether they are just offering somebody Information from another website or another source, that's the first problem you are faced with in trying to get good, solid, reliable, accurate, objective information about the field.
	It is very difficult to do.
	The other issue is that of the motive of the people who are promoting that information or releasing it, and that's where the issue gets really sticky.
	Is a person's judgment good?
	Is he reaching logical conclusions?
	Is his motivations, are they above board?
	And for the benefit or betterment of man, that's where it gets really very slippery.
	And I have certain distinct feelings, but they're probably better not expressed over a radio program than some of the people in the field of ufology.
	Peter, you know something?
	In charge of the secret government that knew about all about this all about the things flying in our skies and who they were and all the rest of it I knew all this and I was in charge of creating a disinformation program to confuse and foul up these people who were looking into what I was holding secret you know what I would have stopped doing anything long ago because I'd be sitting back and saying, look, they're doing it to themselves!
	They don't need me!
	It is a tragedy what's happening in ufology, I think, some days, but I agree.
	We're our own worst enemies, and serious-minded ufologists admit that freely when they get together.
	There's really no means for disciplining our own ranks.
	For example, there are things that you should not do when you're a researcher.
	One of them is overstep your data.
	Yes.
	Say things that you cannot back up or corroborate.
	Yes.
	Or even you should qualify it if you can't.
	But many people don't even do that.
	So yeah, we're our own worst enemy.
	We know it.
	No question about it.
	Here's a sticky question for you.
	We've been getting a series of high resolution photographs back from Mars.
	And aside from the seemingly never-ending photographs of the Martian vista up there with a McDonald's stuck in in Photoshop, have you seen anything that leads you to believe that there was a civilization on Mars or any artifact in any photograph yet that says to you, wow, there it is, a cup, a saucer, a kettle, a pot, A Martian artifact?
	I haven't seen anything directly.
	I certainly haven't seen anything on Mars.
	I know Richard's work.
	Yes?
	He's very dedicated to that, and I congratulate him for that, but I just, having been born in Missouri, I hope, I beg his forgiveness, I just haven't seen anything that would convince me yet.
	That's not to say that it's not there, but the things that really catch my attention are the articles from a hundred or a thousand years ago that seem to address the same thing that we're dealing with here in today's world with regard to UFOs.
	I have articles from 1893, I have an article from the 11th century AD, that ancient Chinese text that appears to address a UFO sighting.
	I believe, Art, that these things have been here for a long, long time.
	And there's got to be some reason that they're here for that length of time And yet they still don't want us to be fully aware of their presence, or even existence.
	So it would seem.
	I think evidence like that is more powerful, at least in today's world, than a photograph of, as you say, golden arches on the surface of Mars.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Peter Davenport.
	Hi there.
	Yes, good morning, Art and Peter.
	Good morning.
	This is Roland calling from Boise, Idaho, and Peter, there's Two million acre wilderness area just right in the center of our state here.
	You can lose yourself up there if you like.
	I love your state.
	That's a beautiful place to live.
	No doubt about it.
	I spend time there whenever I can.
	I've got kind of a one-size-fits-all kind of answer for the problems the press not reporting and also the malaise of the population in general.
	Sure, go ahead.
	Thank you.
	If the people are in their comfortable zone, they have something to eat, their life is okay, they're not going to want to get out.
	They're not going to want to rock the boat.
	Secondly, if they have something to lose, they're easily controlled.
	If you have something to lose, you're easily controlled, and the government does that.
	Case in point, UFO related, the first station That's right.
	There was a lot of disinformation spread back in July of 1947.
	The FCC went to him and told him to shut it down.
	Be quiet down or you're going to lose your license.
	You remember that Peter?
	Yes, that's right.
	There was a lot of disinformation spread back in July of 1947.
	They had to put a cap on that discovery for sure.
	So anyway, that's my point.
	I know that, what's the lady's name?
	Helen Walters or Helen Thomas, I think was the older lady who was on the press corps
	Oh yes, Helen Thomas.
	She's always sat on the front row there and has given hard questions to every president who's come along.
	That's right.
	On PBS the other night on the NOW show with David Bancatrio, he interviewed her and when the current president at the first press meeting She asked him a hardball question about separation of church and state regarding, you know, use the church without some of the charity money.
	And as a result, she no longer sits in the front row as the common courtesy.
	She's now in the back row.
	Not only that, but she generally earned the chuckles of her colleagues, the derisive chuckles when she would ask a question.
	I'm used to the Rockies.
	You're on the air with Peter Davenport.
	Hi.
	Hi, Peter.
	Good evening.
	In regards to what I'm still thinking about, to the very first caller you had tonight, it was asking about how does, you know, religion and ufology go together.
	The History Channel, just run it this week, this past week, they've got three hours of stuff relating UFOs and probably visitors from other worlds or other
	dimensions, and it relates it all to the Bible. The Bible is one of the best UFO
	documentaries that there ever was, if you look into it, especially the book of Ezekiel. Anyway, I
	thought I'd mention that if people are still listening, and then you can get on the Internet
	and order those tapes.
	that Peter was talking about in the very beginning, about the radar.
	Man, that's spooky.
	Yeah.
	But, NORAD out there, you know, they track all of the space junk.
	And if anything come in here from outside the atmosphere and everything, I'm sure it would be picked up on that.
	Well, maybe.
	But we'd never hear about it.
	Maybe it would and maybe it wouldn't.
	We have aircraft ourselves capable of evading most radar.
	And so you have to imagine that, you know, a civilization that could get here from there, and that reminds me of something that I meant to come back to after a break, and that was the laws of physics.
	The gentleman was basically suggesting they can't be here because the laws of physics say that.
	You know, we have light speed, and you can't go faster than light speed, and if you can't do that, you can't be here from there.
	That's what he was saying, Peter.
	What do you say to that?
	Well, based on the laws of physics that we know today, of course, a hundred years ago, at the turn of the 20th century, if a person had said, well, we'll be flying across the Atlantic in a matter of a few hours, people would have voted to incarcerate the individual.
	And yet here we are.
	Within 40 years, people were flying across the Atlantic routinely.
	One of the points that Stanton Friedman makes quite frequently, and I think it's an excellent point, is it's impossible to predict the direction or rate at which technological development is going to occur.
	I think I've paraphrased him properly there.
	And I couldn't agree more with a statement.
	Almost every day we wake up and there's a new, breathtaking discovery in one field of science or another.
	Consequently, we really don't know where we're going to be 50 or 100 years from now.
	I'll say not.
	I mean, I'll say it again.
	I think that history, somewhere down the line, a few hundred years, will look back at, say, 1900 and say, there must have been an obelisk somewhere there.
	Someone went and touched something because that hundred years was just out of control.
	Either that or it'll just keep going like it is now.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Peter Davenport.
	Not a lot of time.
	Well hey Art, save dessert for last.
	Long time.
	This is Don Yell, lady of Kinect.
	Yes.
	And Mr. Davenport, I'd like to make a couple of feedback to you and then ask you a question.
	Oh, please do.
	Okay, first of all, on the subject of soul, when God made the animals, he called them forth, but when he made man, it was in his image and he breathed it.
	Okay.
	The breath of God is soul, number one.
	Number two, as for Mars, I think where the Hebrews talk about, like, the angels left their dwelling place and Mars represents the planet of war, maybe.
	What I want to ask you is this.
	I've noticed, like, on the anniversary of Waco this year, on April the 19th, okay, it starts February the 28th, it goes to April the 19th.
	And we have had, like, on the 7th anniversary, they had that earthquake in Seattle.
	Starbucks went in.
	And this, April the 19th, is going to be the 10th anniversary.
	In 97, we had Hale-Bopp.
	Hale-Bopp's a messenger of precursor of coming events.
	And from 97 to 3 years, we had 2001, right?
	We had the World Trade Towers.
	And then now, we've gone to where we're going Okay, not a lot of times.
	Okay, so my question is, with these dates, have you noticed any kind of increase of reports?
	Okay, alright, fair enough.
	People frequently ask questions, they ask about fluctuation of reports, and my response generally is, we just don't have enough good, solid data to be able to calculate that tightly.
	So, with regard to fluctuation of reports, it can be due to a hundred things.
	Most of all, movies, UFO movies that are released, programs on TV, and so on and so forth.
	I just can't answer the question with any accuracy, I feel.
	Maybe we can take a second and reflect on this.
	We've taken now an hour of calls, Peter, and in that hour, I would say 30% of them at least have had religious overtones of one kind or another in them.
	Would you agree with that?
	Yeah, that sounds fair.
	That's a stupendous, gigantic factor in how ufology is handled by our government.
	I really believe that to be true, Peter.
	The religious conviction is so strong and unwavering, and I'm not knocking it for a second, I'm just saying it's a fact.
	And our government has always, let's face it, uh... had to deal with religion even though we have this separation it's just a fact of life right and and so um... religion is a big factor in ufology probably a big factor in the secrecy behind it and there's almost no way to imagine that it could not be so absolutely resolution
	Resolution of the UFO phenomenon is going to say a great deal about religion, perhaps.
	I feel that's the case.
	Yeah, it is a very big issue and I agree this may be the reason that government does not want us even thinking along the lines of UFOs.
	And I think they spend a lot to disseminate disinformation to keep our minds off of it or to stir the pot and muddle it terribly.
	Well, Brookings, of course, reached certain conclusions.
	I really don't believe, Peter, that Brookings was wrong then or is wrong now.
	In other words, I feel that a complete disclosure would be so upsetting to a lot of people's faith systems that there would be disruption at a level that government couldn't begin to control or tolerate.
	That is possible, but I go back to the point I made when we were last together in November.
	Good, bad, or indifferent outcome, I feel the government has a responsibility to its citizens to let them know the truth.
	After all, there may be somebody in that population, somebody among those citizens, who may come up with the solution to the problem.
	Perhaps, but no matter the apparent or perceived consequences?
	The truth no matter what?
	I believe so.
	That is my feeling and I think we make a terrible mistake in trying to sweep this issue under a rock such that the American people won't even think about it.
	It clearly is there and frankly I don't trust government enough to allow them to make the decision for all of us citizens.
	That doesn't seem appropriate to me.
	Well, you and I agree on a lot of things.
	I'm not sure about that final conclusion, but we agree on all the rest of it!
	As always, it has been a pleasure to have you on the air with me tonight, Peter, and I suppose through the years we will continue to do it.
	I hope so, Art.
	I always enjoy these programs.
	I always say too much and express my opinion too bluntly, but I guess that's what the program's for, eh?
	You're darn right.
	That's what we do here.
	Good night, my friend.
	Good night, and thank you, Art.
	Good night.
	Tomorrow night, Gerald Celente is here on Friends.
	That should be very interesting.
	For tonight, from the high deserts, in the darkness, I'm Art Bell.
	Ciao.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight

▲