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Nov. 27, 2002 - Art Bell

02:52:05

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Marcus Allen - Apollo Moon Hoax

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01:02:55

marcus allen

01:11:05

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Welcome to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
unidentified		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from November 27th, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert and the great American Southwest of New York.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening, good morning, good afternoon.
unidentified		This case may be wherever you are right now, anywhere out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm Art Bell.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
		Art Bell filling in for George Newark.
unidentified		Well, let's take a look in a moment at the news.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First, let me tell you tonight's going to be an extremely, extremely impressive program.
		We've done this before.
		We've talked to people before about whether or not we went to the moon.
		But we've never talked to Marcus Allen.
		Not the football Marcus Allen, that we'd be likely to know.
		but the uh...
		the publisher of nexus in great britain now he doesn't think that He doesn't say we didn't go to the moon.
		What he says, I think, is man didn't go to the moon.
		He doesn't necessarily deny that machines may have made it.
		He believes they did, but whether or not man made it to the moon, that's a different question.
		So we'll talk about that in the next hour, and it's going to be very interesting, I think.
		Happy Thanksgiving, everybody.
		I hope you're having a great Thanksgiving.
		It looks like it's going well around the nation with travel and junk like that.
		You know, people are, on average, waiting about 10 minutes in airports.
		That's pretty good, I'd say.
		News-wise, briefly, the president has appointed former Secretary of State Kissinger to lead an investigation into why the government failed to foil the September 11 attacks, telling the veteran diplomat to, quote, follow all the facts wherever they lead, end quote.
		Bush once posed the bill, but he signed it and told Kissinger, go get him.
		Now, as a concept, what do we think of the government investigating itself?
		Well, maybe not too much.
		There are those who would say, oh, but Kissinger is a great diplomat.
		He is indeed, and not directly affiliated with government.
		But that wouldn't be true, would it?
		So, you know, basically it's a government investigating itself.
		And I wonder what you think of that as a concept, something to think about.
		Would you expect snappy results really getting to the bottom of an investigation about the government itself?
unidentified		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The arms inspectors in Iran, I mean Iraq, had a good day.
		Now, I don't know what a good day means.
		I mean, they dug into Iraqi computers, surveying scenes with detectives' eyes, went looking through all kinds of Iraqi stuff, and they sounded satisfied.
		It says here with Iraqi attitudes.
		So, I don't know what a good day for the weapons inspectors means.
		Does that mean they have a good day if they find something, or they're having a good day if they don't find something?
		Maybe they just had a good day.
		A prominent Pakistani doctor who admitted treating Osama bin Laden, Osama bin Laden, mind you, and other al-Qaeda leaders before and after September 11th said Wednesday the terrorist mastermind was in excellent health and showed no signs of kidney failure.
		So Osama is, or was, at least at that point, okay.
		They asked the doctor, I guess, a lot of other questions, you know, like, are you making something that will blow up the world?
		Are you helping Osama with something like that?
		He said no.
		Will 2003 be the year of the first human clone?
		Maybe.
		An Italian fertility expert says a patient will indeed give birth to a clone baby early next year, but experts, including one who helped create Dolly the Sheep, are very skeptical.
		Dr. Servino Anatori told a news conference in Rome Tuesday, the clone baby is due in January.
		The Maverick Doctor gained fame nearly a decade ago when he helped a 62-year-old woman give birth following fertility treatment with a donated egg.
		But he's received few details about his, revealed few details about the latest project.
		It's going well, it says no problems.
		Well, of course, there could be problems.
		As with Dolly, Dolly, she is thought to be older than her years, as it were.
		In other words, when you clone something, you apparently are likely to clone its age as well.
		So that even though you've got a little bitty baby Dolly, little baby Dolly is actually in terms of years maybe middle-aged.
		So little baby Dolly is going to go racing through life and meet with a quick end.
		Now, that could be the same trouble there is in humans.
		In other words, you clone a 40-year-old woman and you have these little telomeres.
		They're like ticking time bombs for your life.
		And when the telomeres tick out, so do you.
		And so the telomeres apparently go with the DNA.
		And then the cloned whatever American little baby boy, let's say, would be 40 years of age at birth.
		Or in this case, Italian, I don't know.
		But anyway, he says he's done it, and others are in doubt.
		In a moment, we will talk a little bit about the moon, which is going to be the big topic this night.
unidentified		The End.
		Thank you.
		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from November 27, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Coast to Coast AM All right, this is going to lead a little bit into what we're going to do tonight, but there's a story out.
		I'm sure many of you who stay on top of this kind of thing have seen it.
		It's entitled A Telescope to Challenge Moon Doubters.
		And it just issued from London November 25th.
		Listen to this.
		Conspiracy theorists, you have a problem.
		In an effort to silence claims that the Apollo moon landings were faked, European scientists are to use the world's newest and largest telescope to see whether the spacecraft are still on the lunar surface.
		Finally!
		For years, doubters have claimed that NASA, the U.S. space agency, spent billions of dollars faking those landings to convince the world that it had beaten the Soviet Union to the moon.
		Evidence cited has ranged from the absence of stars on the photographs taken by the astronauts to the way the stars and stripes they did plant seem to flutter in a vacuum.
		And of course, there is a radiation.
		There's a million different things.
		This month, NASA tried to put an end to the controversy by commissioning a definitive account of that evidence for the landings.
		In other words, they were going to write a book.
		Days later, after I complained bitterly and along no doubt with some others, they dropped the idea because people said it's a waste of money taking on, in their words, a lunatic fringe.
		Naturally, this only boosted claims the agency was trying to hide something, right?
		So they said, yeah, it probably looked like we're trying to hide something.
		So they said, forget the book idea.
		Now, astronomers hope to kill off the conspiracy theory forever by using a very large telescope, or VLT, actually the most powerful telescope in the world to spot the actual Apollo lunar landers.
		Operated by European astronomers in the Chilean Andes, VLT has got four mirrors eight meters across linked by optical fibers.
		It can see, get this folks, a single human hair from 16 kilometers away.
		A single human hair would fill the lens at 16 kilometers.
		Trained on the moon, such astonishing resolution should enable it to see the base of at least one or more of the six lunar modules that NASA insists landed on the moon between 1969 and 72.
		Supporters of the conspiracy theory welcome the news that astronomers were to photograph the landing sites, but Marcus Allen, here we go, that's tonight's guest, Marcus Allen, the British publisher of Nexus magazine and a longtime advocate of the theory, said photographs of the lander would not prove that the U.S. put men on the moon.
		Quote, getting to the moon really isn't much of a problem.
		The Russians did that in 1959.
		He said, the big problem is getting people there, end quote.
		According to Mr. Allen, NASA was forced to send robots to the moon, and they faked the manned missions because radiation levels in space were in fact lethal to humans.
		That's from the London Telegraph, November 25th, 2002.
		So Mr. Allen, Mr. Marcus Allen from Great Britain, another one all the way across pond we go for, will be the guest here in the next hour and we'll see about this.
		We'll see what he thinks.
		High student absence rates associated with some sort of flu-like illness spreading in East Texas have prompted several small school districts to completely shut down.
		Trend apparently reached Tyler, Texas, closing one private school early for the Thanksgiving holiday, St. Gregory Catholic Elementary School on Monday reported 28%.
		That's 28% or 101 students absent out of 359, according to the principal there, Kathy Harry.
		Gilmore Independent School District, located about 30 miles northeast of Tyler, closed Monday after 601 of its students have been sent home by the end of the school day with flu-like symptoms.
		In my 20 years of school, this quote now, from that principle, I've never seen a district close, but then again, I've never seen this kind of sickness before.
		Because I was Gilmore Superintendent Rick Albrington or something like that.
		So he's never seen anything like this sickness, never seen anything like a closure, but certainly not this sickness.
		And while we're on that subject.
		The government of the Democratic Republic of the Congo has issued an alert regarding the outbreak of hemorrhagic fever that has thus far killed eight people in the Oriental province, a region plagued by fighting among various rebel groups and ethnic factions.
		This is hemorrhagic fever where you begin, I think you know, bleeding from all orifices and then I guess you just bleed on out and you're gone.
		Not good stuff.
		The year-round ice in the Arctic Sea may well be gone by the end of the century.
		That's according to NASA.
		That's right, NASA.
		A NASA study finds the perennial sea ice in the Arctic is now melting faster than previously thought.
		Famous old phrase, right?
		Well, we previously thought this, but now we know this.
		It seems to be, in fact, melting at a rate of 9% per decade.
		And at this rate, the Arctic's perennial sea ice will be gone in just a very few more decades.
		Perennial sea ice floats in the polar oceans, remains at the end of summer when the ice cover is at its minimal and seasonal ice has melted on average this year-round ice is just under 10 feet Thick, but can be up to 23 feet in depth.
		And so, what they're thinking is, we're going to have a whole new shipping lane.
		Really, we're going to have a whole new ocean up there because it's all melting.
		But, gee, we're not having any effect on the environment, or the environment's not in the middle of a big change, is it?
		You know, either way, either one is, I think, extremely profound.
		Whether you think it is a hand of man aiding all of this or pushing it along, that is to say a normal cycle with a hand of man back there pushing away with our smog or whatever all, or you just think it's nature, either way, the change is well underway, and we truly do have to begin planning for the way it's going to be.
		Because I think the argument is over about whether it's going to be that way.
		It will be that way.
		We just have to begin to adapt to the way it's going to be.
		You're going to love this.
		Scientists in Rockville are to announce this morning, so I guess they already have, that they plan to create a new form of life in a laboratory dish.
		The article obviously goes on from here, but I mean, that's so profound that you have to think about what that means all by itself and just sort of stop.
		Let's see now.
		Scientists are going to create a new form of life in a laboratory dish.
	Ai ai yai.
	This is no small matter.
	They're going to create some new kind of life.
	Whether or not life ever comes from another planet may be immaterial because maybe we're going to create something right here.
	Our own aliens.
	Had you ever thought about that?
	I mean, that's not a very non-trivial line.
	They're going to create life in a lab dish.
	Petri dish, right?
	A project that raises ethical and safety issues, but also promises to eliminate the fundamental mechanics of living organisms.
	A J. Craig Venter, the gene scientist with a history of pulling off unlikely successes, and Hamilton O. Smith, a Nobel laureate, are behind the plan.
	Now, their intent is to create a single-celled, partially man-made organism with a minimum number of genes necessary to sustain life.
	Okay, that says it all the way across the board right there.
	They're going to create single-celled, partially man-made organisms with a minimum number of genes necessary to sustain.
	They're going to bring a new kind of life onto the face of the earth.
	And it will be of their design to some degree.
	If the experiment works, microscopic man-made cell will begin feeding and dividing to create a population of cells unlike any previous known to exist.
	The minute our little baby cell is spanked, it's going to start to eat and it's going to start to multiply like a rabbit.
	To ensure safety, Smith and Venture said the cell will be deliberately hobbled to render it incapable of infecting people.
	Oh, good.
	Hobbled.
	It will also be strictly confined and, in fact, designed to die if it does manage to escape somehow into the environment.
	So let's see.
	We're creating a new thing, a new life, a new cell.
	We're telling it to eat, multiply, and be happy, but we're saying if you leave our little Petri dish, you die.
	We design it so that when you get out into oxygen, you die.
	At least, they hope they're designing it for that.
	So we're actually in the life creation business now.
	Now, what does that mean?
	Well, this, of course, is just a...
	You could regard it that way.
	Kind of the way some people do when an egg is fertilized by sperm and you have that instant of creation, right?
	You could think of it that way, that instant of creation, only this creation is occurring in a petri dish.
	So you could consider it a little baby step with all their said-to-be protections.
	You could consider this to be a life just the way you would when the egg and the sperm get to rocking and rolling.
	Pretty interesting stuff.
	We actually get in the life creation business, I thought, something formally reserved for God.
	You know, and that's the other side of this really controversial thing.
	Reserved for God, you know, creating life, it seems like, to most of us was a job reserved for God, the Creator, hence his name, the Creator, right?
	But we're actually getting to where we can do this ourselves.
	Gosh, think about that.
	We can actually bring life.
	Now, you know, as much as we talk about aliens coming to Earth, and they may have, for all we know, it may well be that the first really real alien encounter that we have will be by our own hand.
	Think about that, by our own hand.
	We actually create life.
	So it may be nothing, this story, or it may be really something.
	I tend to think it's really something.
	I mean, they're downplaying it in a way, but when you say we are going to create a new form of life, a new cell that will itself eat and multiply and be fruitful.
	I mean, that's what we're telling it, right?
	Consume and multiply and be fruitful?
	Who do we sound like?
	That's interesting.
	More worries to Mikhail-San than the risk of escape, they acknowledge, is that the project could lay the scientific groundwork for a new generation of biological weapons.
unidentified		Aha!
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It figures, right?
		If you have the power, an incredible power, to create life of your own design, pretty godlike if you ask me, then you also have this, and that is, once you create life, you create the biggest, baddest weapon the world has ever seen.
		You've created possibly something that will go and kill all the white people in the world.
		Or maybe all the black people, or maybe all the brown people, or maybe all the Asians will suddenly die.
		Or maybe you won't discriminate that way.
unidentified		And this bug that you let loose will go and kill everybody.
unidentified		Without regard to race, sex, creed, anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It'll just go out and take care of everybody.
		We're headed to Open Lives in the next half hour.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from November 27th, 2002.
		12 and 17.
		Everybody is looking for something.
		Some of them want to use you.
		Some of them want to get used by you.
		Some of them want to abuse you.
		Some of them want to be abused Sweet dreams are made of me.
		Sweet dreams are made of me.
		Once upon a time, once when you were alive.
		I remember swimming in your eyes.
		I wonder where you are.
		I wonder if you think about it.
		Once upon a time, the other world is streaming.
		Once the world was new, our bodies packed up for and you know that it's a brand new day.
		We couldn't tear ourselves away.
		I wonder if you can.
		I wonder if you still remember.
		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight, featuring Coast to Coast AM from November 27, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Jim in Richmond, California, fast blast me the following.
		A life form designed to die if it escapes.
		Hey, Art, wasn't that the problem in Jurassic Park?
unidentified		Jurassic Park.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Designed to die if they escape.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I think the fellow might be right.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
unidentified		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from November 27, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Coast to Coast AM Oh, it's early yet, and this has got to be the classic fast blast of the entire night.
		Charlie up in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada says, Eric, with respect to life, creation, and a petri dish, if you think of the earth as a gigantic petri dish, didn't God hobble us so that if we tried to escape our petri dish, we'd die?
		And aren't we escaping anyway?
		Good stuff, Charlie.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Lord, how are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm doing okay, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		California on a cell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me divine this, a cell phone.
unidentified		I'm sorry, I have a connection.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Proceed.
unidentified		You know, I spent four hours at the cell phone shop today.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You did?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, saying stuff like, hey, can you hear this cinder block drop?
unidentified		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can't hear you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, what's up, sir?
unidentified		Anyway, I was just getting back to what you're saying about the creation of life.
		The full story on that, I don't know if you read into it further, but if you were to imagine, basically, there was no stars in the universe, no light.
		It was just pitch black.
		And then somebody invents the flashlight.
		Well, there you go.
		You could find things.
		The whole secret behind this, inventing life, is they want to create a new life form so it would detect biological warfare agents that have been released onto it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know.
		I hear that.
		That's a plan.
unidentified		Yeah, exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		but i mean what about jurassic park for god sakes well uh...
		most of the When you create a new life, when you begin tampering about with genetic this and that, and you actually, actually create life from scratch, you've done a really significant thing.
		And it might want to go hunt for bad weapons and bother bad things, or it might not want to do that.
unidentified		Sure, you always have the Frankenstein thing there, you know, where it could run wild and it could mutate all of us, make us look like a bunch of graves on the.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, there you were, and you just moved gene 34, 1832nds of a zillionth of a quarter of an inch, to the right, and my God, you've got Godzilla.
unidentified		That's true, yeah.
		The information, sort of like when you're talking about creating life, information that I've got a long time ago stated that some of the UFOs that people have seen, the ones that have crashed, those actually creatures in there weren't actually like, they were basically biological robots that piloted those aircraft because they felt the bodies would be fiddled with tumor cells because of the leaking power system.
		So you've got to figure out, intelligent life on wouldn't Be stupid enough to risk their lives watching us.
		They'd send down a biological robot to pilot, or they'd just have remote craft.
		That's right.
		And those guys, they call them workers, basically, in the military.
		So those things were workers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they're like in the hive mode.
unidentified		Right.
		And, you know, there's a rumor about, you know, like Area 51, like we have a few of those, and they're childlike.
		They're very small.
		And they're basically biological robots with high intelligence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you doubt that for one second?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, if we're reading stories like this now, this is out in the private sector where they're creating life, right?
unidentified		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then what are they doing behind closed and buried doors here in the desert?
unidentified		Sure.
		Back in the mid to late 50s, we were dabbling in basically cloning back then.
		We're trying to create basically another Albert Einstein at this point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we've got the doctor cloning in Italy.
		We've got these scientists making new life.
		And what's going on way down deep, years and years ahead of everything else?
unidentified		That's right, yeah.
unidentified		We may have, you know, interesting things going on, but as long as we're ahead of the other guy, that's all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
		Thank you.
		We've got to stay ahead of the Iraqis, right?
		And the Russians, I guess, and the Chinese, and whoever might do something like this.
		I really liked Charlie's question here.
		Life created in a Petri dish.
		He thinks of the entire earth as a petri dish and all of us as little creations, right?
		And that we were hobbled so that we wouldn't go traipsing about escaping.
		How do we hobble us?
		Well, you take away all the air.
		That's pretty good, right?
		After you go up so far, there's no more air.
		And maybe the good Lord wouldn't think about rocket ships when he hobbled us.
unidentified		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Interesting stuff, Charlie.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi.
		I'd like to say you asked about Kissinger.
		I myself don't think he is a person.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can tell right now this is a Kissinger fan.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's called.
unidentified		No, no, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, not a Kissinger.
unidentified		No, not at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
unidentified		Kissinger is not a person, in my opinion, to be trusted because he's the one who brought us detente, which the Soviets' own press says was a strategic retreat for the West.
		They brought us the opening to China.
		Now China has nuclear missiles aimed at us, and it's still the same thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He also brought us some stuff in Vietnam, if you go back to the case.
unidentified		Yes, he left a lot of American prisoners, knowingly left them alive in Vietnam.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So some people say, yes.
unidentified		Well, the Soviet defector, General Jan Sajna, says it, then there are whistleblowers from the CIA, Defense Intelligence, and National Security Agency who also say that.
		So I would, I'm the type of person I'm not afraid of any conspiracy.
		I think if there's any conspiracy theory out there that sounds crazy, but some people believe it, I think we should investigate it anyway, either to prove or disprove once and for all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So when the Kissinger report, if that's what we get, comes out on 9-11, you won't necessarily buy every paragraph.
unidentified		Well, there's always a chance, like they say, a broken clock is right twice a day, but I don't trust Kissinger as a person.
		I don't trust his judgments.
		I can't say whether he's a dope or traitor.
		I can't judge his motives, but he's been wrong so bad in the past, how can anybody consider his opinion worthwhile today, is what I'm saying.
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you are entitled, sir, to your opinion.
		And I know that opinion is shared by many, that Henry Kissinger is, you know, he's one of them.
		One of them.
		And who's he investigating?
		He's investigating them, right?
		He's one of them, and he's investigating them.
		That's what I was, the concept, the whole concept of government investigating itself.
		I was contemplating that.
		Henry Kissinger, I mean, you've got to consider Kissinger part of government.
		Definitely, definitely, definitely.
		One of them.
		Investigating the government.
unidentified		Well, how cool is that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		I could think of other people you might get to do the job, you know, like out in the private sector somewhere.
		Previously in the private sector, wouldn't you be a lot more trustful of that than somebody within government?
		Just a thought.
		West of the Rockies, you are on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		Richard here from KDWN in Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The big 50,000-watt Las Vegas Signal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Absolutely.
		This is interesting talking about clones, Petri dishes, and Henry Kissinger.
		I love it.
		I think the Petri dish thing and the organisms might be growing to kill the bad clones that get out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The bad what?
unidentified		The bad clones.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The bad clones?
unidentified		That get out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		That don't make it past grade A if they're graded.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think of Charlie's theory?
		That as these scientists claim they're going to hobble this cell, hobble it so that if it escapes, it dies, so Charlie thinks God hobbled us here on Earth.
		In other words, we're here, but we can't go out there because there's no air out there, and we don't function well without air.
unidentified		Well, I'm not sure about air, but we only use 10% of our brain power, so we may be hobbling ourselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're all hobbled.
unidentified		We're a hobbling meth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		90% hobbled, right?
unidentified		That's about it.
		However, I have a question for you.
		Yeah, you know, the percentage, go to the crap tables and ask the fit boss.
		He'll tell you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So anyway, you have a question for my upcoming guest?
unidentified		Yes, I do, and that is, you know, there could be ways with inner cutting and all kinds of ways where there could be a combination of people on Earth and machines on the moon.
		They may actually find machines on the moon.
		However, I think that if they find an American flag on the moon or remnants of it, and I don't know if they can do it with that telescope or maybe from the International Space Station.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, if they find flag, then what?
unidentified		Well, there's a better chance, at least, maybe 10% or 90%, I'm not sure, that man may have been there because...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It'd be lying there on the moon's surface in case anybody looked later.
unidentified		Well, either that or they said Henry Kissinger.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Henry Kissinger.
unidentified		You and your family have a great Thanksgiving.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the very same to you, sir.
		Have a great Thanksgiving.
		And don't, you know, the whole Trip to Fan thing, of course, is true.
		And when you eat turkey, bear this in mind, you will get sleepy.
		I know a lot of people think that's an old wise tale, but it's not.
		Triptophan will certainly make you sleepy.
		And so you'll have a big meal and you'll gorged yourself on all the turkey you can eat, if you're lucky.
		And then you will sleep.
		You will have an afternoon nap.
		An entire nation gets sleepy.
		Now there would be a moment for an attack, right?
		A sneak attack on America.
		Thanksgiving, early evening, when the whole damn country's asleep.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hey, good morning, Arn.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, sir.
unidentified		How about the turkey?
unidentified		First of all, we all know that turkey makes everybody sleepy, so it's a possibility.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I mean, what if the whole country got sleepy, which pretty much they do?
unidentified		Well, hey, the Japanese picked the perfect time early December, early Sunday morning to attack us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was just a random thought, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure there's nothing.
unidentified		But dealing with tonight's guest and the information you're putting out tonight, I guess my old civics teacher would probably call me what he referred to as a mug rump.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A mug rump.
unidentified		With their mug on one side of the fence and their rump on the other side.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean on the whole moon question?
unidentified		Yeah.
		I take both sides of this.
		Number one, I do believe that we did go.
		I'm sure that we went up there.
		But my theory is possibly that there was a contingency plan put in place, and they took these guys out to the desert, and they filmed what they were going to, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, so that's a new one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you think that we might have essentially done both?
unidentified		Right.
		That we took them out to the desert, we filmed the practice, told them, okay, this is what you're going to do when you get up here.
		Right.
		And when we actually set them up, we ran into a problem that nobody thought would ever happen.
		And that was the broadcast.
		What about?
		Back in 1969, what was our broadcast capability?
		Could we actually send an audio and video signal all the way from the moon back to Earth?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we could.
unidentified		Uninterrupted.
		Yeah, we could.
		Look at today's technology.
		We could barely get a signal around the country sometimes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, but see, the moon has this really good line of sight to the Earth.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, really good, sir.
		all it has to do is come straight across unencumbered space collide with the atmosphere and make it down through the atmosphere and it's coming from on high so that's not real hard and no no sir it's a better technically real hard today but back there no Transmission of television or radio pictures from the moon, not at all hard.
		High-gain antenna, a dish, and you're home-free.
unidentified		Yeah, but if we did run into that problem, it would explain a lot of the conspiracy theories.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It would explain it if your technical concept was accurate.
		It's not.
		I was doing it then, and many others were doing it then.
		That isn't that long ago.
		And so, yes, we could easily transmit that way.
		A high-gain dish there, and a very high-gain dish here.
		And yes, I assure you, signals from the moon, no problem at all.
		In fact, ham radio operators, like me, without extremely sophisticated equipment, are quite capable of bouncing signals off the moon.
		In other words, hitting the moon so hard with a signal that it bounces back to Earth.
		So if we can do that, then you can quite read it.
		And that's with equipment that would have been readily available then as well as now.
		The same equipment, the same level of technical expertise was around then as it is now.
		So it absolutely would have been possible.
		Absolutely.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hey, Art.
		I just wanted to see how my cell phone worked.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		About like the rest of them, to be honest with you, sir.
unidentified		Oh, okay.
		This is Kurt in Milwaukee.
		I thought I'd be the last one ever to submit the cell phones, but at least it takes messages.
		But, hey, I was just wondering, you think I always look forward to hearing JC call the show.
		Yeah.
		And I'm waiting for him to call George.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, geez.
		Me too.
		I just can't wait till he calls, sir.
		I literally count the moments from call to call.
unidentified		I bought the time you had him on for a whole hour.
unidentified		That was one of the all-time classics.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was an all-time classic.
		All right.
		Thank you very much.
		JC, a handful whenever he calls.
		And I'm sure that as time goes on, JC will.
		I can't say that on the radio.
		Oh, West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Art Bell.
unidentified		This is Tawassee calling from KPNW country in Eugene, Oregon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Tawasi.
unidentified		I was just calling to let you know that here in the city of Eugene, we're calling for the repeal of the USA Patriot Act.
unidentified		The city council.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but you can't do that in Eugene.
unidentified		The city council came out and said repeal it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They can't, yeah, but this, see, Eugene can't do that.
unidentified		Well, we just became the 14th city in the nation to come out and say that it was a bad law that infringes on our constitutional rights.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't think that's the way to go get that law, though.
		I mean, I understand how you feel.
		I just don't think that's the right path to getting it.
unidentified		I think that, you know, when there's something wrong with a law, that people ought to say so.
		Something like 300 people showed up at the city council meeting, and they voted unanimously to repeal it.
		Can I mention a paper?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like as in newspaper, you mean?
unidentified		Yes, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, sure.
unidentified		It's in the Eugene Register Guard.
		Okay.
		Yeah.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I appreciate the information, and I even agree with the I think I agree for the most part with the fact that it's probably, you know, it's goodbye, Fourth Amendment, and it's very serious, but I don't think that's the way to go and try and stop that or reverse that law.
		Usually laws like this passed in haste for an emergency, what's perceived as an emergency situation, like a law and a war and a lot of those things.
		Those laws are generally repealed later, now, or found unconstitutional, particularly.
		So, you know, that would be the real path to do this, of course, to simply find it unconstitutional, which it may be eventually.
		But we'll have served in the interim, I suppose, as we have this perceived emergency with terrorism at the moment.
		But yeah, I kind of support you.
		I mean, I understand what it means for America.
		It's not a good thing.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		This is Greg from Cape Cod.
unidentified		I'm listening to you on WXTK.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And I know that you don't like to have your previous caller almost turn into a political thing when he was cutting down Kissinger earlier.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, Well, there's a lot of people, you know, who consider Kissinger part of the New World Order.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And he may be.
unidentified		Oh, I know, but I didn't care much for him either then.
		But at least when you were referring to China, at least he didn't give him missile technology like happened in Clinton's watch.
		But that's not why I called.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You got that in anyway, did you?
unidentified		I just wanted to ask you if you had taken a view yourself of the picture I sent you of the clouds, because I know you have them on your website.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now you've lost me.
unidentified		It's the arms in the clouds coming to Jesus on the cross, and it's right out of the clouds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I saw that.
unidentified		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		I thought that was an interpretive matter, and I didn't see it the way you saw it.
		I wasn't able to make out Jesus, and I sort of barely saw the arm, or what could have been maybe an arm.
		So I didn't put it up because I didn't think it was strong enough.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		All right, how are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm all right, sir.
unidentified		Calling from New York?
		Yes.
		A little off topic.
		A friend of mine just recently attended a law enforcement conference in regard to anti-terrorism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, turn your radio off, if you would, please.
unidentified		Okay.
		And one of this, it was attended by FBI, CIA, INS, and a couple of speakers that brought up, and I had never heard this before.
		I want to know if any of your listeners heard this.
		In regard to the plane that went down to Pennsylvania, had you heard that the tail section was found seven miles away?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I didn't hear that.
		And I would be happy to look into that.
		Believe me, I'm sorry, we're out of time.
		I would be more than happy to look into that.
		The tail section found seven miles away.
		He's talking about the plane that was brought down by the passengers in Pennsylvania, the patriotic people who took that plane down in Pennsylvania, who in my mind will always be as heroic as you can be in this country.
		They said, well, maybe we're going to die, but we're not going to die your way, buddy.
		And that plane went down, and they did it.
		All right, we're going to pause.
		At the top of the hour, we're going to be talking about the moon and whether we really went there or not.
		And we're going to get the perspective from over there away on the other side of the ocean in Great Britain.
		I'm Art Bell from the High Desert.
unidentified		This is Coast to Coast A.M. The trip back in time continues with Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM.
		More Somewhere in Time coming up.
		Be inside the sand, the smell of the touch, the something inside that we need so much.
		The sight of the touch or the scent of the sand, or the strength of an oak leaves deep in the ground.
		The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
		Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing.
		To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing.
		I hold these things in our memories home from the useless house.
		God, I'll let you so hard with this place.
		of this strength, let go of it.
		Take a fear, take the place of my sea, which is for me.
		I'm sharing for years.
		But so hard to do it by fear.
		I do it my life.
		But by now, by now, I can't ride.
		Premier Networks presents Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from November 27, 2002.
		Question is more like, did we take a ride?
		Huh?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or were we on their ride?
		Which wasn't to the moon.
		We're going to be talking about that.
		I've got this very interesting article, and then the one man mentioned in here, Marcus Allen.
unidentified		I've got him from Great Britain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Marcus Allen, actually, is the British distributor and publisher of the UK edition of Nexus Magazine.
		Nexus, you probably all know about it, originates from Australia, deals with news and information overlooked, unreported, or even ignored by the mainstream media.
		Gee, would they do that?
		Things like hidden history, future science, alternative health issues, conspiracies, and of course UFOs.
		Marcus has been involved with Nexus in the UK for the past eight years, and Nexus is widely available throughout the USA and Canada.
		Like so many others, Marcus watched the Apollo moon landings live on TV and at the time applauded the apparent success of those missions.
		It was seven years later, after he had attended a lecture in which he questioned, in which, rather, I guess during the lecture, the whole question was questioned.
		The question was questioned.
		Validity of the moon landings.
		Did we or did we not?
		He decided to carry out his own research and find out.
		Having worked as a photographer in London in the 1960s, Marcus was able to examine the well-known photographs issued from NASA from a professional viewpoint.
		He's also researched many other aspects of Apollo, as well as giving public presentations on the subject, of which he always asks for someone to prove him wrong.
		To date, he says no one has.
		He's reluctantly come to the conclusion that it is beyond reasonable doubt some manipulation of the Apollo record indeed has taken place.
unidentified		Evil Screams
unidentified		Now, we take you back to the past on Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Art Bell Somewhere in Time All right, I read it to you earlier, but once again, from the London Telegraph, that's what got Marcus Allen here tonight, from the London Telegraph.
		We've got this story, which I think is very, very good.
		It indicates that a very large telescope in Chile is going to point itself toward the moon, and they're going to actually look for the artifacts that man is said to have left when he quested on the moon, courtesy of NASA.
		If that really happened, if it really happened as they say, as we saw, I too saw on television man step on the moon.
		I saw that the way everybody else did.
		Marcus, Marcus Allen, not the football guy.
		Welcome.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Good evening, Arthur.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening, what is it there, anyway?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		It's just gone 7 o'clock in the morning in the UK.
		The sun is just, well, I don't think the sun's going to come out today.
		It hasn't been out for a few days.
		It's been raining.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, situation normal.
		Situation very normal.
		Where are you, London?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Just south of London, about 30 miles south of London.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Another wonderful, actually, it's a wonderful day like that in British Isles.
		Most people like days like that in British Isles.
		Do you?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		We get used to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dreary, foggy, rainy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a wonderful day.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Oh, ice creams, you can't take a joke.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		You shouldn't be living here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		Well, all right.
		This is a very, very interesting article.
		The one appeared in the Telegraph.
		And you, of course, were quoted in here.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		I was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		i was indeed and i thought there would be an interesting guess somebody who obviously believes that You think we may have gone to the moon, but you don't think that man went to the moon, do you?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Not in the way we've been told.
		Getting to the moon isn't really a problem.
		Certainly it wasn't a problem back in the 1960s.
		One has to look at the whole context of this.
		The idea that somehow nobody got to the moon, it's an idea that's been bubbling around under the surface for a long time, and it's really just sort of recently resurfaced.
		And there are various reasons why that has happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like what?
		I mean, what are the reasons?
		Why is it suddenly back with us?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the reasons is that NASA recently announced that it was going to commission a book by the well-known science writer James Herberg to finally put to rest these strange rumors that NASA had not been 100% truthful about its Apollo moon landing program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I laughed a lot about that, actually.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		And we all fell about it.
		In fact, that probably was generated by the considerable interest that was raised when I believe it was Fox TV in the United States broadcast a program about 18 months ago called Conspiracy Theory.
		Did We Land on the Moon?
		And of course that raised a lot of interest and it brought to the attention of, shall we say, a new generation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll tell you how good it was.
		I, of course, watched that program and commented for my listeners here.
		And I thought that program was so good.
		I mean, when I went, before I watched the program, the truth here, Marcus, I thought people who thought we didn't go to the moon were crackpots.
		I really did, Marcus.
		But by the time I finished watching that program, it was so good that I was asking myself a lot of really hard questions.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, as time has gone on, Marcus, I've kind of drifted back the other way, to be honest with you.
		And I still think we did go to the moon.
		But I don't know, it's nagging.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, as I say, it was a result of that program.
		Of course, what happened afterwards, because of the considerable reaction to it, Fox Television not being slow in recognizing a good ratings winner when they can see one, repeated the program about a month later, which is what you'd expect from a commercial television operation.
		Now, at that point, quite a lot of school teachers started to contact NASA and say, look, you know, the children in my class, the kids in class, are they saying, well, what's the truth of all this?
		What's going on?
		And the teachers were saying to NASA, look, tell me, what do I say to them?
		You know, how can I explain the situation?
		So NASA was starting to get a lot of questions because though you and I and many others watched this event live on television, this was 30 years ago.
		And a new generation now has grown up that is not necessarily familiar with it and look upon it more as history than anything else.
		For us, it's part of our lives.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, right now, in this generation, we know, for example, it would be nothing to fake that.
		I mean, it would be nothing to fake it.
		I mean, Hollywood these days could make a moon landing, frankly, look more real than what you and I saw on television.
		They could do that today, right?
		No sweat at all.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, in fact, Hollywood have done exactly that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They could make it look better.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's called Apollo 13.
		And we all know that was done in Hollywood.
		In fact, Ron Howard, the director, said it was all made in Hollywood.
		Now, if anybody has seen that film, that's the one starring Tom Hanks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, of course I've seen it, yes.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		If anybody's seen that film, they will no doubt be as impressed as everybody is by the sheer quality of the production.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		If Hollywood turns out, it was a very polished commercial product.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		But it was all made in Hollywood.
		And there are one or two rather interesting little incidents in that film, which I think point to the question that we're addressing tonight.
		Like what?
		There are two points in it.
		Well, two that I was aware of.
		After the event on Apollo 13, you recall that Houston, we have our problems.
		The oxygen tank had exploded and the craft was in danger.
		Now at that point it was decided that the three astronauts would move from the command and service module down into a lunar lander as a sort of lifeboat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		And in order to be safe they had to put their spacesuits on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		And one of the shots, this is a very very small shot, was as they were getting into their spacesuits of zipping them up.
		Now there was no reason to have that shot in the film at all.
		The point I'm making is that how can you pressurize a zipper?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well you probably can't.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well exactly.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		This is the point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean that was Hollywood though.
		I mean they had to get the suits on quickly.
		I mean otherwise don't the real suits take a long time to put on?
		I mean you don't zip them up right and they do have zippers.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		They do?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well most people are familiar with spacesuits by the rather natty white overalls that we see with all the tubes and things attached.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The ones they do spacewalks with, right?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		That's right, yeah.
		They do spacewalks with these nice natty white suits.
		But underneath that white overall is the real works, is the real spacesuit.
		And it's basically a hard shell because a spacesuit has to withstand a pressure because humans, as we know, can't survive without a pressurized environment.
		We've got 14 pounds of air, 14 pounds per square inch of air above us everywhere we go.
		That's atmospheric pressure.
		Humans can survive with a pressure of about 5 pounds per square inch.
		Maybe a wee bit less.
		So in order to survive in space, which is a vacuum, which has no pressure, we have to carry our own pressurized environment with us.
		And we do it in a spacesuit.
		Now, if you're going to have a spacesuit which has going to withstand an internal pressure of £5 per square inch, £5 per square inch is 750 pounds per square foot.
		That is a lot of weight.
		So a spacesuit has to be very strong.
		And we all think of spacesuits as being sort of rather like...
		Sort of balloon-like.
		Well, that's how they would appear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They appear that way, yes.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, if they weren't made of basically fiberglass.
		So you can imagine a fiberglass shell sitting over you.
		That's what a spacesuit is.
		It's not very flexible.
		You can make joints that move, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that's why they have such a hard time with construction up there.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Basically, yes.
		Movements of anybody in a spacesuit are severely restricted.
		And you can't have half a spacesuit.
		It's the whole thing or nothing at all.
		So that's why you have the helmets and the gloves and the boots and everything.
		It contains...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		I don't mean to interrupt you.
		But how does this bear on anything to do with the moon, for example, or doesn't it?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, it has a great deal to do with it, etc.
		When we come on to the detail, I was just explaining about the film Apollo 13 and these two little incidents which I had noticed.
		Maybe I'm reading more into it than there should be, but I felt it was an indication, even if it wasn't a deliberate intention by the film producers to insert, shall we say, a little red flag.
		The other incident was, if you recall, as they go round the moon, there's a dream sequence where Jim Lovell now knows he's never going to land on the moon.
		That's the character played by Tom Hanks.
		And this sequence shows the lunar lander on the moon's surface.
		And I saw this in the Hollywood film Apollo 13, and the shot of the lunar lander on the lunar surface was absolutely brilliant.
		You imagined you were looking at the lunar lander on the lunar surface.
		This was in the film Apollo 13.
		The point I'm making is that nobody other than the 12 astronauts who supposedly walked on the lunar surface know what it actually looks like, because nobody else has been there that we know of.
		But this shot replicated exactly what we came to know the lunar surface would look like from the Apollo photographs, the ones that were supposedly taken on the lunar surface.
		And it's these things which, in my mind, add up to many questions that haven't been answered.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, but other than providing a gentle, perhaps humorous little trail of a nidbit of information, I don't know that Apollo 13 tips me one way or the other in terms of becoming convinced that we did or did not send man to the moon.
		And that's the question, did we send man to the moon?
		And what are the hard, contentious reasons that you could give that we were unable to actually get a human being to the moon?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We both agree.
		I think we could get machines to the moon.
		I concede that we could, and I'm sure you do as well, right?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		I do, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the only question is, did we get men there or not?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		That's the key question.
		Could we get men to the moon?
		Now, yes, physically you could put a man.
		Maybe they weigh 150 pounds.
		It is not particularly heavy.
		Yep.
		Physically, they could be got there.
		The point is, could they get there and come back alive?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that is the question.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		What is the showstopper of space?
		What will prevent this happening?
		And this is possibly the key to it all.
		Radiation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Now, radiation, we know, is lethal.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Certain types of radiation are lethal to humans.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		On Earth, we survive very comfortably.
		Of course, if we go and lie out in the sun for too long, we're going to get ourselves burnt a bit and that is radiation in action.
		But if we're stupid enough to do it we deserve all that we get.
		We also know that there are far more dangerous types of radiation, those which we can experience from a nuclear explosion for instance.
		That will kill us.
		Above the Earth's surface are what's called the Van Allen radiation belts.
		These are named after Professor James Van Allen who was the first scientist to identify them.
		This was done in the late 1950s where he took the very simple expedient of strapping a Geiger counter onto Explorer 1, one of the very first satellites the USA launched, and sending it up and he found that it didn't work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How far above or out from Earth or above is the Van Ellen belt?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Right, the Van Ellen belt start 500 miles above the Earth's surface.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So anybody launched into space above low Earth orbit is going to be in or go through the Van Ellen radiation belt.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now he strapped on a Geiger counter to determine there was how much radiation in that belt as it passed through.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		As that first satellite passed through, he thought there was none because the Geiger counter wasn't working.
		What had happened was that the Geiger counter had not been set at a high enough level.
		The radiation had gone off the scale.
		So when they repeated the experiment with a Geiger counter able to record much higher levels of radiation, yes, that's when they found it.
		And they found that it was very severe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How severe?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Certainly severe enough to cause damage to satellites which operate within it.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Now, at the moment, commercial satellites, geosynchronous satellites, those which stay in one place above the Earth's surface.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		22,300 miles up.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		22,300 miles up.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		They're slab bang in the middle of the banana radiation belt.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they're getting slammed.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		They would be if they weren't protected against them.
		It's what's called hardening.
		You can harden a satellite, which means basically you protect it.
		You protect the internal electronic workings from the dangers of radiation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, hardening requires weight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you've got to put lead or something like it up there to shield.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, for electronic equipment, you don't need a great deal.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Hardening is more of a technical term rather than a weight term.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But what you're arguing here is that minus this hardening, these satellites would not function, would die very quickly from radiation, though that's a material electronic thing, would die of radiation very quickly without this hardening, yes?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
		Yep.
		Yep.
		Well, one of the known results or one of the known effects of a nuclear explosion is that it takes out all electronic equipment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Quite so.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		And that is due to the levels of radiation which result from a nuclear explosion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The electromagnetic pulse.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Electromagnetic pulse.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		It's part of the electromagnetic spectrum, of which we use visible light as part of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, yes, okay, but a satellite, of course, in geosynchronous orbit in the Clark Belt has got to stay in the Van Ellen belt virtually, as you just mentioned, all the time.
		It has to reside there, whereas astronauts headed for the moon would have exposure on the way out and on the way back.
		But they would be passing through it as opposed to staying there, correct?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		They would be passing through it, and the calculation is that they would be exposed to the increased levels of radiation for about two hours in each direction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, when we get back, we will find out what two hours of Van Allen Belt sun dipping will do for you.
		That is very interesting.
		I've wanted to know all my life, really, how much radiation one could expect up there.
		So if you were essentially in a light craft without a great deal of shielding, you're up there skinny dipping, what would be the result after you pass through the Van Allen Belt?
		Then if you live through that, what would be the result on the way back?
		That alone may tell us whether man actually went to the moon or not.
		Remember the shuttle, folks.
		The shuttle's in low Earth orbit.
		It's way, way, way down below the Van Allen Belts.
		From my desert, I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		In the nighttime, you're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from November 27, 2002.
		The Coast AM from November 27, 2002.
		Took a look around me with a wind blow with a little girl in a Hollywood bungalow.
		Are you a looking little lady in the city of night?
		Or did you not alone think your city and night?
		She packed my bags last night replied zero out, 9 a.m.
		I'm gonna be high as a kite by then.
		I miss the earth so much, I miss my wife She's lonely out of space on such a high time,
		that's why And I think it's gonna be a long, long time Something brings me round again to find a man that think I am You're
		listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time, tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from November 27, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest from the British Isles is Marcus Allen.
		And we're talking about the moon landing, whether we really, really sent a rocket man to the moon, or rocket man actually, and whether they came back alive, whether that even would be possible talking about the Van Allen radiation belt at the moment.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
unidentified		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from November 27, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Music Well, okay, let's talk about the Van Ellen Belt a little bit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, a man going to the moon would have been exposed for two hours to whatever amount of radiation is in the Van Ellen Belt, minus whatever protection they had aboard, right?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Yep, correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which adds up to about what?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		It adds up to a potentially disabling level of radiation.
		Now, one should broaden this out slightly.
		Looking at what we know about Apollo, that three men in the command service module were going through the Van Ann radiation belts, much of the levels of radiation that we know about would be relatively harmless.
		It would be deflected even by the aluminium skin of the craft.
		The levels of radiation which cause harm to humans are the higher frequency, the higher energy levels.
		These are the X-rays and gamma rays.
		Now all radiation is generated by the Sun because that generates all the energy that we use on this planet.
		That generates the light that we use to see by.
		The electromagnetic spectrum covers a vast range of levels and intensities of radiation.
		Only a few of them, only a very few, are harmful to humans.
		On the Earth's surface, we are totally protected by the atmosphere.
		It's the equivalent of 30 feet of Earth.
		Earth will protect you as well.
		Water will protect you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Lead will protect you.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		We know that water and lead in the levels required were not carried on the spacecraft going through the Van Allen belts.
		But more importantly, assuming that the astronauts were aware of the dangers, and one has to make the assumption that they were aware that there were potential dangers to them, because nobody had ever been out into space before, well I make two assumptions.
		One is that experiments had been carried out prior to humans going through the Valanin radiation belts.
		These experiments would, regrettably, have almost certainly have included animals.
		We know that the Russians launched a dog called Laika, and we know that certain small rodents have been searched.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, what happened to Laika and what happened to the rodents?
unidentified		Right.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Laika died within a few hours of launch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		though that was not announced at the time.
		What was said at the time...
		This has only recently come out.
		Since the Iron Curtain was torn apart 12, 13 years ago, much information has come out of Russia, which we were not privy to before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So Micah the dog assumed room temperature within hours?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Basically within hours, yes.
		She overheated.
		And that is another area that we'll possibly look at a wee bit further down the line.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay, so she didn't die of radiation?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's unlikely she died of radiation because she died so soon.
		She died within a few hours of launch.
		It was announced that she had food and water available to her for 10 days of flight.
		That was what was announced.
		So the assumption was made that she lived for about 10 days.
		Now, obviously, you don't send a dog up into space without recording the effects of the launch and the travel in space.
		So you have telemetry.
		And so obviously if her vital functions had ceased like she did, it would have been known pretty rapidly by anybody monitoring her progress.
		And that is what has come out of Russia very recently.
		Small rodents were sent out, rats, earthworms were sent out, many different types of animals.
		I, despite a great deal of searching, have been unable to find the results of that.
		What we do know is that none of these animals launched into space returned.
		One or two monkeys were supposed to have returned.
		They were launched fairly early on.
		And one has to make the assumption that they were being launched in order to establish what effect space travel would have on life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So without the ability to bring them back, launching them way out of low Earth orbit, you would simply launch them, observe whether or not the vital signs stayed going, not really expecting to necessarily even get them back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They just sort of keep going.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		They would just keep going.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's pretty horrible.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Getting them back alive was relatively difficult.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Launching really wasn't too much of a problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Also expensive.
		I mean, you know, you could spend a lot of money to bring them back.
		All right, I know.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		And you've got to go and find this is one of the reasons why quite a lot of the original research really hasn't been discussed in much detail about the motorcycle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the dog Died very quickly, and you don't know the fate of the others.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Not fully, because the results really haven't been announced.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		But there's one thing which we all know is affected by radiation and is not human, and that is photographic film.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, indeed.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Now, photographic film, I'm sure you remember being warned a little while back when you go through airport security, and if you're carrying your camera, it's always best not to put the camera equipment through the X-ray machines because it may damage the film.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		It's best to have it handled.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I rather think the newer inspection equipment somehow doesn't harm film with radiation because they always say will not harm film.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's a little sign up there that says won't harm film or something.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		That's right, because the more modern equipment is far more sensitive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But the older X-ray machines, they'd zap film like goodbye.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		They would zap it, and if you were a professional, you were always advised to get the film hand-searched.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		I mean, we're talking maybe 10, 20 years ago.
		Gotcha.
		But not that long ago.
		So the point is that photographic film is affected by levels of radiation.
		Right.
		And what you get on it is called fogging.
		Fogging purely means that the film has been partially exposed by the radiation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		And it reduces the contrast level.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		In effect, the film, if you're using it for professional purposes, the film is useless.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		So you have to avoid this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So are you saying all their film would have been zapped?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it wasn't?
		That's right.
		In fact, the pictures were startlingly beautiful and clear, and you have the blackness of space without the fog of radiation?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		What I'm saying is that the photographs that we're all very familiar with, man on the moon, all the thousands of photographs, we may not have seen the thousands of photographs, but we have seen enough to know that there are quite a lot of them taken on all the Apollo missions.
		They are brilliant photographs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They certainly are.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		I would be the first to say these are some of the best photographs ever taken because the acid test of any great photograph is you don't need a caption.
		You look at the picture and you know what you're looking at.
		The picture tells the story.
		If you have to have reams of explanation, this picture is taken there.
		It's basically failed.
		What we're looking at on the Apollo photographs, especially probably the defining image of the 20th century, is man on the moon.
		That picture supposedly of Buzz Aldrin taken by Neil Armstrong on Apollo 11 standing on the lunar surface.
		This is a defining image.
		This is an iconic image.
		It is a brilliant photograph.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you're saying it's an impossible image.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		I'm saying that the levels of radiation known to exist beyond through the Valana radiation belts and beyond in space are such that photographic film would be adversely affected.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But why could they not take special precaution?
		Because they weren't dummies.
		They knew that photographic film was going to get hit by radiation.
		They knew there was radiation there, right?
		So why not take special precautions?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		That's the obvious point, isn't it?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Now, what precautions would be taken?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know, put it in a lead container.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		This is what happens on the space shuttle today.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so why not?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, they didn't have a lead container on Apollo.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you quite sure?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then what precautions were taken for the film on Apollo?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		None.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		None?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		That's the problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		None?
		You know, can we go back to the radiation for a moment?
		You said two hours in the Van Ellen radiation about how much actual radiation in Rentkins, or however you want to measure it, would film or man or whatever be exposed to?
		I'd like to know a figure.
		Do you know a figure?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Okay, just as a point of comparison, if we use the term REM, which is the one I'm familiar with, REM stands for Rootkin Equivalent Man.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		It's a measurement of radiation level.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We measure radiation and the exposure to that amount of radiation for whatever X amount of time, right?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		The average background radiation on Earth, because there is some, it comes from rocks, it comes from the sun, is 0.5 rem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, 0.5.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		If you work in the nuclear industry, obviously you're much closer to higher levels of radiation.
		The level that you are allowed to be exposed to in any one year is 5 rem.
		Quite low.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From 0.5 to 5.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		To 5.
		5 would be the upper limit in terms of what you could legitimately be exposed to if you work in the nuclear industry.
		And if you recall, there are ways in which these things can be measured and can be recorded.
		Radiation is cumulative.
		Yes.
		So if you have more than 5 rem in a year, you obviously have to come out of that particular environment and you have to start working on your income.
		The point at which radiation will affect man or affect people starts at about 35 rem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		35 rem.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		35 rem.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Now that means that you're going to start exhibiting the first signs of radiation sickness and the first signs of that are nausea and vomiting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		So nausea and vomiting at 35.
		Yep.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		If you start getting up to the 100 plus levels, 100 plus rem, you're going to start being disabled.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Disabled.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Now, if you have radiation treatment for, should we say, cancer, one of the known effects of radiation treatment, which is the same thing, I mean, we're talking about radiation here, is your hair falls out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're a hair full though, yeah?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Okay, that is one of the...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've all seen it with cancer victims undergoing...
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Cancer victims are familiar with this as an effect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, and so they're up in that 100 plus.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		It's starting to get to that level.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, okay.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		The point at which you start dying is 500 rem.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		500 rem and above.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it's good night.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Once you get above that, you're in serious trouble.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night.
		All right.
		Got it.
		So, going through the radiation belt, spending two hours in it, what would one expect to collect?
		Probably.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		One would expect to collect around 15 to 20 rem each way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, each way.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Now, depending on the levels of radiation that are in the radiation belt.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's below what you call disabling.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		below disabling but still in the You could be nauseated, you could be throwing up, that kind of thing.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		But it's not below the level at which photographic film is affected.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And where would that be?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		That would be around 5 to 10 rem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		5 to 10 rem.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		Okay.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		That's when photographic film, if it's unprotected.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And at 40 rem, what happens to the film?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		It starts to show distinct levels of fogging.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Which would be visible on any prints developed from it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And how do we know they didn't take some special precaution in Apollo?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the major factors, obviously, if you're going to go to the moon, if you're going to launch anything, is the weight of what you're trying to launch.
		And we know that on Apollo, weight was of such great significance that it had to be reduced by all possible means to the extent where some of the insulation was removed from the craft to try to reduce the level of weight.
		Because for every one pound of physical weight that is launched into lunar orbit, it requires 1,000 tons of fuel to launch it from Earth.
		Because you have to get out of Earth orbit, you have to get all the way to the Moon.
		So any one pound of weight put into a lunar orbit requires an enormous amount of fuel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but going by your own numbers here, if you're going to collect, say, 40 rems round trip, or even just slightly above 40 rems, I would have to say you're taking a risk, and you never know, you might not feel real well, but as long as you're not removing fuel rods when you get home, you're going to be okay.
		I mean, Right, you might live through it.
		It's not an automatic death sentence to go through the Van Allen belt at that speed.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		It's not an automatic death sentence, no.
		Okay.
		But this is the lowest point.
		We haven't got on to the real Showstopper.
		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Solar flares.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you need.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Solar flares are unpredictable.
		They cannot be known about in advance.
		We know they exist because there was a very recent demonstration of the power of a solar flare in California a few days ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm extremely well aware of what a solar flare can do, Marcus.
		Very well aware of what it can do.
		I'm a ham operator, you know, and I've followed solar flares for a long time.
		What happened in California?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		There was a major spike.
		There was a major solar flare which started to seriously affect the Earth's magnetic field.
		Because it's the Earth's magnetic field which holds the Van Allen radiation belts in place.
		They're formed by the Earth's magnetic field, or they're held in place by the Earth's magnetic field.
		this solar flare was so powerful that the earth's magnetic field was actually bent.
		Now over in Brazil...
		That's the main point that you would actually identify in every solar flare level.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Marcus, you're quite right about that.
		However, we can go back because we've been documenting solar flares, perhaps not as well as now with spacecraft out there a million miles parked and testing the solar winds or putting their electronic finger up for the solar winds.
		Not that well, but we've been watching solar flares.
		And during the Apollo launches, we would know, if we look back in the records, like a weather forecast, what the solar conditions were during those missions, right?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what was the forecast back then?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Specifically on Apollo 16, there was a major flare.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A major flaw.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Meaning that during, it's called an M-class flare.
unidentified		Yes.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		There was an M-class flare during the time the Apollo 16 craft were beyond the Earth's magnetic field, beyond the Valena radiation belt.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what would that have meant to the astronauts?
unidentified		Death.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What sort of REM value would they have gone through?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		That particular flare was around 900.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They'd have gone through 900 REMs?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they'd be dead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They'd be dead.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		They'd be very dead.
		They're not.
		The Apollo 16 astronauts are not.
		So this is one of the points that if you look at the records of solar flare activity, which surprisingly have been extremely difficult to get hold of, I know quite a few people have tried because this is an obvious avenue of research.
unidentified		Sure.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		And it is very, very difficult to get accurate figures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're sure about that M-class flare?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely, yeah.
		Now, you're also aware that there is a cycle of flares.
		There's what's called solar maximum.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		An 11-year cycle, yes.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		11-year cycle.
		The height of the 11-year cycle at the time of Apollo was 1970.
		quite correct yes said the whole of the Apollo missions which were 1969 to 1972 would Exactly.
		So if you say, okay, maybe they dodged the raindrops.
		Maybe they were aware of this.
		Maybe, I mean, I'm sure that all the Apollo astronauts would have been fully aware, fully briefed on levels of radiation likely to have been experienced.
		But we have to remember also that all Apollo astronauts were military men.
		They were the best of the best.
		They were test pilots, they were Marines, they were Air Force.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know, but it still doesn't get past your they got 900 REMs and they're still a live revelation.
		Hold on, Marcus, we're up here at the top of the hour.
		I'm Art Bell.
		Did we or did we not send men to the moon?
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from November 27, 2002.
		For so long.
		Listening to the strangest stories, wondering where it all went wrong.
		Oh, so long.
		So long.
		Hold on, hold on, hold on.
		Hold on, hold on.
		When I look back on all the grandpa learned high school, it's a wonder I can't think of all.
		And my last education hadn't heard enough.
		I can be riding on you for me.
		You and me.
		Let you be born.
		Oh, yeah.
		I looked in the old and black, and Mama gave my corn and corned away.
		If you took all the girls I knew, then I would say, "Well, Got a moment in bowling.
		I know they never match my sweet imagination.
		you're on.
		Thank you.
		And everything looks worse in black and white.
		Oh, the poem, the hills, the night sky colors, the hills, the angels, the stars.
		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from November 27, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Marcus Allen from Great Britain, Bridge Hiles, is my guest.
		Tonight we'll talk about whether or not man wanted moon, and we've just got a lesson in REMs and how many you can take, how many you can't, where you can take them, where you can't, how film will do and how it won't do.
		At 900 REMs, film would be jet black, actually.
		So, I don't know.
		There's some pretty good arguments.
		Maybe we didn't go.
unidentified		Screams
		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from November 27, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe I was exaggerating with the song there, but I don't think so.
		Coming through the Van Ellen belt at 900 rims, that film you would think would be toast.
		I mean, just like black or something, or fully exposed, maybe white.
unidentified		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would that be true, Marcus?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		It would certainly be adversely affected.
		Because the interesting thing about that film is that we've all seen the pictures, and we've usually seen them in books or magazines, or maybe as postcards or posters, but as prints.
		Very few people are actually aware of what the original film was that was used to take those pictures.
		And it was Kodak Ectachrome Transparency Slide Material, which is a very, very high-quality film.
		It's what you would expect on a mission of this importance, that you would use the very best equipment.
		And the Kodak Ectochrome film was certainly the very best film at the time.
		The point is that photographic slide material, though it is very good for producing final prints from, in order to get the quality, you have to expose that film accurately.
		If you overexpose it or underexpose it, basically it's wrecked.
		You can't use it because the colours go and you don't have an option of being able to come back and use an enlarger and dodge around on it.
		You've got to get the exposure absolutely spot on.
		Anybody who's used photographic slide material will tell you that.
		It's nothing strange or startling about it at all.
		A more logical choice, given that nobody actually knew what exposure levels should be, because nobody's ever been there on the moon, this is, would have been print material, a colour-negative material.
		Of course, this is affected by radiation as well.
		But the photographs that we look at are absolutely brilliant.
		I've really said this, and I will continue to say it because they are very, very good photographs.
		And then you have to start looking at the equipment that took these photographs, the cameras.
		Not least of all, the people who operate the cameras would have been trained to use them, naturally.
		But you have to bear in mind, of course, that the astronauts had many other things to do than take photographs.
		They had to do a few experiments.
		They had to get there, first of all.
		They had to land the craft, first of all, which, of course, at the time of Apollo 11, Nobody, including Neil Armstrong, had ever successfully flown, let alone landed, the lunar lander.
		When Neil Armstrong had practiced doing this, he'd actually crashed it because it went out of control.
		He's a very, very good pilot.
		And he had to bail out, he used an ejector seat, bailed out, used a film of this thing crashing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, indeed, but that was with Earth gravity, yes.
		In other words, on the moon, you've got what Trunnell calls it one-eighth one-sixth is the usual figure.
		One-sixth the gravity.
		So their presumption was that the craft would be very much more controllable in one-sixth the gravity than it was on Earth.
		I got that, right?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Certainly, yes.
		I mean, one-sixth gravity would not have nearly as much of an impact as Earth's gravity does.
		But in order to practice that, because this is something else one has to take into account, that all the known activities, everything that was going to happen on any part of the mission would have been practiced well in advance.
		Like today, if you're going to fly in your jumbo jet, you're going to hope that the pilot of your jumbo jet has practiced in his simulator what he does when all four engines cut out at 30,000 feet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I always hope that.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		You do hope that, because you don't want him to practice with you on board at 30,000 feet.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		You want him to be absolutely fully trained.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, the last thing you want to hear echoing back in the fuselage is, damn, I wish I'd practiced for this.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Anybody know what we do now?
		No, you don't want to hear that.
		So the Apollo astronauts would have done a great deal of simulation and training exercises in order to practice all the various procedures that they would have expected to carry out.
		One of which would have been landing in a lander.
		Another would have been practicing taking photographs.
		Because most people are very familiar with photographs.
		We've all used cameras.
		We all know what they do.
		You hold them up to your eye and you look through them and you take the picture.
		And you hear the motor clicking and the little film winding forward.
		And basically it's an almost instinctive thing now.
		We don't even think about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		but i mean i hear you were here tonight to talk about you know like the only thing that went to the moon how does this go to prove other dot Okay.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		If at some point it was discovered that there was so much danger in space that the chances of man surviving in space were diminished considerably.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like you'd crash the craft, you'd die of radius, whatever.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		We have to also take into account the fact that NASA had announced that the Apollo landings would take place live on television.
		So, if you're going to do something live on television, any producer will tell you that you want to make sure that all the known things that can go wrong are ironed out beforehand and ideally it goes without a hitch.
		If you're going into space where these unknowns cannot be worked out in advance because you don't know because nobody's ever done it before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I watched a lot of live TV in my early days, Marcus, and I can tell you right now, a lot of things did go wrong.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		A lot of things did go wrong.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		One of the things that would want to have been avoided at all costs is any astronaut throwing up in his helmet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would not be good.
		Dying wouldn't be good.
		twitching wouldn't be good anything anything Yeah.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		But obviously, until anybody has carried out the experiments, nobody actually knows.
		Now, at some point, I'm sure you're going to say to me, well, if this is true and it didn't happen, why didn't the Russians blow the whistle?
		Why didn't the Russians gain their political advantage on America not doing it as they were telling the world they were doing it?
		This is an obvious question to ask.
		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		There you are.
		Now, the Russians, as we know, were doing much the same thing, or we were told they were doing much the same thing.
		There was a space race on.
		Because we have to put Apollo into context, into its political context.
		This was the height of the Cold War.
		This is a few years after the Bay of Pigs fiasco, the Cuban missile crisis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This was also still really in the shadow of Sputnik.
		I mean, we heard the Russian thing going around the world and we went all went, oh my God, they're in space.
		They won.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		I know.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so it was in the shadow of that, too.
		I mean, I understand the political reasons why we did what we did.
		I understand the political forces that were at work, but that doesn't explain why the Russians didn't scream bloody murder.
		That explains that they would scream bloody murder.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		Of course they would.
		Because one of the points that has been made quite clearly is that the Russians were, if not as advanced, certainly very close in understanding the dangers of space travel.
		And they had made a perfectly straightforward announcement because when the Russians were tracking their spacecraft, they were using one of the big radio telescopes in Britain, Jodrell Bank, which is near Manchester in the middle of the country.
		And Bernard Lovell was the director of the Jodrell Bank telescope, and he liaised and worked with the Russians quite extensively in the mid to late 1960s.
		One of the points that he has made, this is Bernard Lovell has made, is that the Russians told him that they were not going to be sending any of their cosmonauts beyond the Valana radiation belts until they could ensure the safe return of their cosmonauts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But since when did the Russians care so much about anybody's life, that of animals or that of their cosmonauts or anything else?
		I mean, I've heard all kinds of stories that cosmonauts died, that in fact, even before low Earth orbit was achieved, cosmonauts died.
		Nobody was ever told about it.
		Isn't that true?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Exactly, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what the hell should the Russians care about Chris being a cosmonaut or two trying to beat us to the moon?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, that is the story that we have been told, that maybe the Russians didn't care.
		It was certainly true that Yuri Gagarin was not the first person, the first man into space.
		There were, I believe, three fatalities before he succeeded in his orbit.
		Who they were is really only just coming out now.
		Yes, the Russians were desperate to do it, and the Russians appear not to have as much concern for human life as, shall we say, their opponents in the West, America, Britain, Europe generally.
		That is not necessarily going to deny the fact that they may well have made this announcement because if they couldn't see a way of protecting their astronauts, it would become much more public if they're going to try to get to the moon.
		Going into Earth orbit is a relatively easy thing to do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Agreed.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Going to the moon is much more public if you fail in going to the moon, especially if you have men.
		One thing that everybody wanted to avoid was having any deaths occur on the moon, because we can all look at it every night and we can say, there's a body up there.
		We don't want to do that.
		It's one of the basic parts of humanity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		i guess i haven't given that a lot of public schools you're right i mean they would uh...
		having a body up there would kind of It'd change the way everybody thinks of the moon forever.
		Well, that's true.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		It's because we can see it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why, I don't know.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe, maybe not.
		So, given the political context that we've got, given that Russia had continually achieved space firsts, they'd been first to the moon, they'd been first to Mars, been first to Venus, first with a man in space, first with a woman, first with a dog, first with virtually everything.
		And President Kennedy in 1961 wasn't going to stand for this anymore.
		And that was why his famous announcement, his famous line, we're going to send a man to the moon, land a man on the moon before the decade is out, return him safely to the earth.
		At the time, nobody knew if that was possible.
		This was Kennedy's vision.
		This was Kennedy's challenge.
		This was Kennedy uniting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the question is, did we do what Kennedy said we were going to do or not?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you say not.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		I'm saying that at the time he made the announcement, nobody knew if it was possible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I'm saying making the charge that we didn't...
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Making the charge that we didn't is a very serious charge.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Damn right.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		It is something which I have been already accused of being all manner of strange things.
		And maybe being from Britain, I can look at it in a slightly more dispassionate way.
		It is not part of my political history.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		I can look at it from a purely scientific point of view.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, yes, but while you've done pretty well with the REMs, you're going to have to get beyond that to convince me that we didn't go to the moon.
		I mean, I just trotted out.
		What is the evidence?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Okay, what is the evidence that we went to the moon?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		What is the evidence and who presents it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or that we didn't go.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		No, that we did go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That we did go?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the photographic evidence, the television that we all watched.
unidentified		That's it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		That's it.
		The photographs, the television.
		I don't know what else.
		The moon rocks, the moon rocks.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		The moon rocks.
		Yeah.
		The astronauts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the moon rocks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's talk about the moon rocks.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		All right, the moon rocks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Brought back moon rocks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How many pounds?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		840 pounds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a lot of rocks.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		It's a stack of house bricks about three foot high.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At least.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		It's a whacking great lump of rock.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A whack great lump.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		You're going to want to bump into it in the middle of the night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A whacking great lump.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is a whacking great lump of rocks.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		And they've all been examined by scientists around the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		With what result?
		How strange.
		You didn't ever hear much about that.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, we didn't.
		There's an interesting story behind that, actually.
		Well, first of all, yes, 840 pounds of moon rocks.
		That is what we are told has been returned from the moon.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where is it?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Where are these moon rocks?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's a lot of rocks.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure, in fact, there is what is called a piece of moonrock on display in the Natural History Museum here in London.
unidentified		Right.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure there is a display of a piece of moonrock in the Smithsonian Institute in Washington.
		Yes.
		I'm sure that there are displays of what is labeled moonrock in many of the major museums of the world.
		Now, most people, when they hear the term moonrock, they think of something like a half-brick.
		They think of a fist-sized lump of sort of rock.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Something, yes.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		And we've heard that scientists around the world have examined this moonrock and have concluded that because it does not exhibit the properties of rock which we know originated on Earth, that this rock has come from somewhere else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, have we really determined that?
		That's one of the funny things that I never really heard follow-up on.
		In other words, what the hell did they find with the moon rocks?
		Were they had properties that indicated that the Earth was never part of the moon, or the moon was never part of the Earth, or whatever.
		I mean, they just know they can examine it and say, atomically, look at this sucker, the structure is not one of Earth.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a very good point you make, actually, because I decided to try and find out what research had been done, who had examined them, what conclusions did they reach.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what are the answers?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		And the answers were, to be honest, they were ambiguous.
		Now, what happened was a lot of laboratories and universities and organizations around the world did receive what's called moonrock.
		And as I said, we all assume moonrock means lumps of stuff, pebbles and things like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, at least.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		It wasn't.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		It was a few grams.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Grams?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Crushed rock.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Grams of grams.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Crushed rock.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Literally.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, wait a minute.
		I remember seeing the astronauts picking up objects and putting them in little carriers.
		You remember that in the video?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		Yes, I remember that.
		And there was one rock that's supposed to be, I think it was Apollo 17.
		It was called the Genesis rock.
		This is what we came for as Schmidt picks up this rock off the ground.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I recall that utterance, yes.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		And yes, they got large lumps of rock.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		No, so 840 pounds is the total allegedly returned on these six Apollo missions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So where are the rocks?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		At Houston.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're at Houston.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Over £600 of that total are locked in the vaults at Houston.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're really quite sure of that?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I like the way you say Houston.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Houston.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Houston.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Houston.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		It just shows I'm a goddamn Brit, doesn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, pretty interesting.
		All right, listen, hold on to this rock thing for a moment.
		We'll be right back.
		I've always wanted to know what happened to those damn rocks.
unidentified		And I've always wondered, this is Premier Networks.
		That was Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM on this Somewhere in Time.
		From time in a spin.
		I gave you love.
		I thought that we had made it to the top.
		I gave you all I have to give.
		But you have to stop.
		You've loaded all skies by telling me a lie.
		Without a reason why, you've blown it all sky high.
		She's got something that moves my soul.
		And she knows I love you, love her.
		But she lets me down every time you make her mind.
		She knows with me.
		She'll be so inviting.
		I want her all for myself.
		Oh, temptation eyes.
		Looking through my mind, my core.
		Temptation eyes.
		You've got to love me.
		You've got to love me tonight.
		You love me, baby.
		Oh, yeah.
		Oh, all I do think is true.
		Just the same, just the same.
		My head is filled.
		We are fighting.
		Just the mind.
		No.
		Now, we take you back to the past on Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest from the Lost Empire is Marcus Allen.
		Great prisoner.
		Talking about why we did or didn't, in his view, did not go to the moon of man.
		He doesn't dispute the fact that machines were taken there.
		In fact, there's a telescope that's about to go find those machines on the moon.
		Marcus, however, would not be surprised because he does think we sent machines to the moon.
		He just doesn't think we sent man.
		at the moment we're talking about uh...
		all the rocks they brought back the fact that uh...
unidentified		down at houston they still got six hundred pounds plus of those rocks Now, we take you back to the past on Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Art Bell Somewhere in Time All right, you know, Kim in Michigan, in Detroit, I think, really does have a very good point here.
		We're going to get back to the rocks in a second, but you know, he brings up a good point.
		Please, he said, finish explaining why the Russians didn't cry foul.
		In a way, we didn't get to that.
		I mean, you gave me a reason why the Russians perhaps believed that it couldn't be done, but you sure didn't tell me why they didn't cry foul.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then why.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		You have to look at what was happening in Russia at that time.
		This is mid-1969, time of Apollo 11.
		The chief designer, i.e.
		the head of the Russian space program, was a guy called Sergei Korolev.
		He was the driving force behind all the major Russian activities at the time.
		He had died in early 1967.
		It was an operation that went wrong.
		He died.
		As a result of that, there was a considerable amount of confusion, and we all know that the Russian space program became stalled at that point.
		It did, yes.
		There were various factions who were competing for ascendancy within the Russian space program.
		Nobody had actually got there.
		It was in a degree of confusion.
		The Russian system of government, as we all know, was very different from the democracies of the West.
		The question I would always say at that point is, yes, the Russians could have blown the whistle, and they would have gained great political capital if they had been correct.
		But the point is, who would have had, A, the technical knowledge that what they were watching from the Apollo landing?
		I'm saying they were fooled too, because there was nobody who had A, the knowledge, and B, the political client to be able to approach the Russian Politburo, i.e., the head of the Communist Party, and convince them that they should go public with us, that there was nobody who could do it.
		We all watched it.
		I watched it live, I'm sure you watched it live, millions of people, 600 million people we're told, watched it live.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		A better question would be: why didn't anybody in the West blow the whistle?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Why didn't any of the photographers who watched the films and the photographs, why didn't any of the scientists blow the whistle?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you mean right away?
		Well, essentially right away.
		I mean, there's plenty of people like you today.
		I've had others on the show.
		There are a lot of people who don't think we put a man on the moon.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		That's right, because we've now had a chance to examine the evidence.
		That's why I asked the question.
		What is the evidence presented by NASA for the achievement of the Apollo moon landing program?
		And you said quite rightly, as many people would on the same question.
		It's the photographs, it's the films.
		And you think a bit more and you think, well, it's the rocks and the astronauts and look at all the interviews and the books.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, well, let's go back to the rocks.
		So, you know, I did, I always wondered, what about the analysis of the rocks?
		Now, did the analysis of the rocks show clearly that they were not of Earth?
		Was that clear?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		That is one of the great anomalies.
		No, they didn't.
		It didn't show that there was a great deal of difference.
		It showed that the word differences, yes.
		Now, one of the experiments that was done was because at that time of Apollo, most people, most scientists thought that the moon was of volcanic origin.
		It had a hot core like the Earth does now.
		But the core on the moon, because it's a much smaller planetary object, has cooled.
		But it used to be volcanic.
		So what was done was they would take a sample of these moon rocks, and they would take a sample of rock from the Columbia River Basin, that's up near Vancouver in Canada, which is a volcanic area.
		And they would take a sample of rock from Hawaii, which we know is volcanic, and they would put them in three boxes, marked Hawaii, Columbia River Basin, and Moonrock.
		And these would be presented to various institutions, universities, and NASA would say, please compare and contrast these samples and report the differences.
		Well, they'd already marked the sample moonrock, so the scientists knew what they were looking at.
		And NASA said, well, here's the money to conduct the research.
		So he who pays the piper calls the tune, in my book.
		This is not science.
		This is not what it should have been, which is three boxes, map A, B, and C. Yeah, blind test, right?
		So that nobody knew what was in any of them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, but that's fair.
		I understand that science can be manipulated in that manner.
		I mean, they're going to take, obviously, the moon sample, and they're going to really look hard for any little thing they can't attribute to any of the other samples.
		Okay, fine.
		I understand what you're saying.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Now, if that was the case, if that is what had happened, you would get what you expect.
		You would get a difference.
		But we all know because recently there was the famous case of the rock from Antarctica called ALH 84001, which supposedly showed fossilized microbes that supposedly came from Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes, Mars.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		But what that says is that rocks originating from a different planet to ours can be found on Earth.
		Now, please don't make the immediate assumption that that is what I'm suggesting, because I don't know.
		I don't have the answer on this one.
		I don't know whether there are rocks which can be found on Earth, which can be proven to have come from the moon.
		But it's a logical step to take that they could have happened.
		If you get a major meteor impact...
		It's a reasonable assumption.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is, yes.
		If they can get here from Mars, which, by the way, is very controversial, and a lot of people actually dispute that.
		But if you make the assumption they can get here from Mars, they can definitely get here from the Moon.
		The meteor impact is going to toss them off, and somehow it's going to make it here.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		It's certainly an interesting calculation to do.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		What power of impact has to hit Mars for a rock to be sent out into free orbit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		And for it to then land up on Antarctica to go on Earth.
		I mean, we're talking stretch of the imagination here.
		But if these rocks have been examined, and if the results are relatively inconclusive, and the only report I have seen on any of the rocks which indicate that it might possibly have originated from another planetary body is the research which was done to indicate that the rock examined had never ever been in contact with water.
		Now we know water is the most common thing around on Earth and everything gets in contact with water sooner or later.
unidentified		Correct.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		And that is the only example put forward.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		This rock has never had any water in contact with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Otherwise they could not tell that rock from it would be the same as Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As an Earth rock.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Then you go back to the planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I always wondered about that, Marcus.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that's the only difference they could find?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		It's the only one I've ever been able to identify or read about, which indicates that maybe they came from another planet.
		But there are so many other areas around which indicate that we can find things on this planet billions of years old.
		I mean, rocks in Greenland are billions of years old.
		And they're on the surface.
		And you can go and hack them off with your little archaeological trowels and chisels and picks and stuff.
		So if you also assume that the origin of the moon and the origin of the earth came from the same gas cloud, which is one of the suggestions put forward to the origin of these planets, well they would be formed from the same material and there wouldn't be any difference.
		So it's not really answering the point that are the rocks from the moon vastly different and are the rocks that have been examined actually from another planetary body, i.e.
		the moon.
		It's in dispute.
		It's not 100%.
		Which is one of the reasons I say I don't think the rocks prove it.
		Because one has to take into account one other factor.
		The Russians, we all know, were trying to get to the moon, and they did, with unmanned craft around the time of Apollo.
		Those unmanned craft had little gadgets on them to drill into the lunar surface and bring back, in fact, a total of 300 grams.
		Yep, regolith, which is the sort of surface material on the moon.
		They returned 300 grams of material from the moon.
		So one can say with a degree of certainty that material from the moon has been returned to the Earth.
		So what has examined, I say most of these scientific establishments received only a few grams of material.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you know if the samples the Russians submitted for study exhibited roughly the same characteristics as that which we claimed we brought back from the moon?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a matter of knowing whether the samples examined are different.
		That I don't know.
		It's just that there is a degree of confusion surrounding these rocks.
		Everybody quotes the rocks as the definitive proof of the Apollo landings.
		Well, you couldn't have got the rocks if you hadn't been there.
		That's the obvious statement to make.
		And because we all saw it on television, we all saw them picking up the rocks, we all saw the photographs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you're saying you could have gotten the rocks without going to the moon?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you look at a rock exhibited in some August Institute and it's marked moon rock, who are you to question whether it is from the moon or from, as I've heard somebody suggest, Twin Falls, Idaho?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, you're right.
		How are we to know?
		It looks like a rock.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		So we have to rely on NASA telling us the truth.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		We have to rely on scientists being given something which they know is from the moon to examine, and it's not...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And let's put ourselves in the mindset of NASA and the American government at that time.
		And let's assume that what you're saying is correct.
		And we never did put a man on the moon.
		Well, then that means that somewhere, somehow, on some Hollywood-like stage, we faked all of this for the cameras.
		Right?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		That's a reasonable assumption.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no.
		That would almost have to be a conclusion.
		If man could not go to the moon without dying or couldn't get back with pictures or whatever all the evidence is that you claim, then certainly the pictures that we did see were faked somewhere.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		It's a very good point.
		And I would say that there is a much simpler solution to this problem.
		Yes, let's assume that at some point they decided, hey, look, it's a hell of a risk going to the moon.
		We've got to do it by the end of 1969, the end of the decade.
		We've got to fulfill President Kennedy's challenge.
		What the hell are we going to do?
unidentified		Okay.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		400,000 people worked on the Apollo program at the time.
		They were all doing the very best job they could do.
		They were building the best rockets, the best landers, the best rovers, the best spacesuits.
		They were doing the best job they could.
		Sure.
		Knowing the conditions which were assumed at the time.
		At some point, somebody would have made a decision.
		But let's just backtrack from that decision.
		When you're practicing going to a different place like the moon, you will construct a simulation set.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		You will construct something that is as near to the conditions that you expect to meet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Matter of fact, actually, we did that because I remember Walter Cronkite at the time with his simulations and even showing some of the NASA simulations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you remember that?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I do.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know whether you got to see CBS over there or not, but Walter Cronkite was doing that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So we got to see some of those simulations.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there were simulation sets built for the moon.
		In fact, if you live near Flagstaff in Arizona, you will find there a full-scale model of the Sea of Tranquility.
		It's about two miles long.
		It was built by the U.S. Geological Survey, and it was in order that astronauts could fly across the surface in a helicopter to experience what it would be like to approach the lunar surface.
		Logical thing to do.
		No problems there at all.
		The lunar lander was built.
		There was a simulator built for the lunar lander.
		A simulator built for the service model.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As you pointed out, Crash, yes.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		And there were films created so that when you were inside the lunar lander, the films would show what you would see when you look out of the window.
		And these films were created using models.
		And there are photographs of these models.
		There's nothing secret about them.
		There's a model of the moon itself.
		It's actually in San Francisco at the moment.
		There were models made, very detailed models.
		Some of them are 50 foot square, of parts of the lunar surface.
		These were built in order to be filmed by tracking cameras, silly cameras, as if it was a spacecraft approaching the lunar surface.
		So all this film was made.
		Nothing secret about it at all.
		Lots of people were working on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I believe it.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		There were certainly lunar sets built.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		There are photographs which are quite free, quite easily available.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so what are you suggesting occurred?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		What I'm suggesting occurred is that when they were doing the simulations, they were being done in real time.
		If it was an eight-day mission, the simulation lasted eight days in order to get the control center technicians, the guys behind the TV screens, would experience what it was like.
		So they could have the change of shift.
		They could simulate the mission over eight days, ten days, or 12 days as it was for Apollo 70.
		And the astronauts would be in their spacesuits.
		They would be in and out of their lunar module on the simulation set.
		All of this would have been filmed and photographed extensively for training and debriefing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Agreed?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		So that you would say, okay, look, guys, as you come down the ladder, be careful on that last step.
		It's a bit high above the surface.
		You've got to stand, you know.
		These are things which you would expect to happen.
		It was all filmed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would be the mankind step, yes.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Now, if at some point it was decided that because it had already been committed to being a live show, if the dangers of the radiation in space, if the dangers of temperature, which we haven't touched on even yet, if these dangers were so great that it was not known what effect they would have on astronauts in the real conditions, but we have to do it by the end of the decade.
		What are we going to do, guys?
		Somebody might have said, well, let's, you know, we're going to have to go ahead with it.
		We've got a lot of film of what the moon looks like.
		We've got the simulation sets, we've got the photographs, we've got the whole lot.
		Let's launch the Saturn V rocket.
		Because a million people are going to watch it.
		We've got to launch it.
		The astronauts have to be in the capsule.
		Because if this thing blows up on the launch pad, we can't have them suddenly appearing.
		They're going to have to be in it.
		As soon as that Saturn V rocket was launched and it disappeared from sight, the only people we could rely upon to tell us what happened next was NASA.
		Nobody else had any access to any information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Quite true.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		So from that point on, we relied on NASA telling us what was going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So are you suggesting that NASA may have left out the part about the man in the capsule escaping and parachuting no doubt into the ocean somewhere and being retrieved?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The rocket continuing on or what?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm saying that the rocket would have been launched as we saw it live on television.
		It disappeared from sight.
		It went into low Earth orbit.
		Which we know happened.
		It goes into low Earth orbit and stays there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Didn't go to the moon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Stayed in low Earth orbit.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Stays in low Earth orbit and the astronauts are in there.
		We know that that isn't a big deal nowadays.
		The space shuttle does this regularly.
		The space station's up there doing it regularly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		To go into low Earth orbit for the eight days of Apollo 11 really wasn't a problem.
		They've been doing 14, 20 day orbits on the Gemini craft before that.
		And they just stay in orbit.
		Now, this is the worst case scenario.
		This is the real high conspiracy, if you like.
		This is the worst thing that could have happened.
		They go into low Earth orbit, they stay there.
		They're communicating with the various stations.
		Now, the communication is the key to this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is, because there would be a certain delay when you're on the moon.
		Hold on.
		Marcus Allen is my guest.
		And that's a good place to pick up on the other side of the news here at the top of the hour.
		I'm Art Bell.
		We're discussing whether or not man actually went to the moon.
		Marcus Allen thinks not.
		Even if we find machines on the moon, he still says we did not go.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from November 27, 2002.
		You know it don't count me, right?
		But it's made use if you wanna take the blues And you know it don't come easily You don't have to shout or leave the vows You can even play the blues There's any chance Yeah, the song on the moon Flaring in my head That the weak line comes, look at the sand Can I be cold?
		My whole life spins into a quiet bed As I'm stepping into the twilight zone Placing in my house, here's my feet gone I'll be the
		same, move down the moon and dark Where I'm going to go now that I'm almost too far You can even call and go When the bullet hits the bone You can even call and go When the bullet hits the bone You can even call and go When the bullet hits the bone I'm falling down the spiral I'm falling down the spiral Just a mission unknown Love-a-clock messenger All
		alone Can't get no connection Can't get through Where are you?
		Where are you?
		No damn well he hasn't cheated.
		And then I'm about to turn through the twilight zone.
		The left in the madhouse to be my people.
		I've been coming through the moon and the moon and the dark.
		I'm not sure I'll never go on to the box.
		You're gone and gone.
		You're the one that's the one.
		You're gone and gone.
		listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time tonight featuring coast to coast a.m. from November 27 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, you know there was recently a reporter that walked right up to one of the astronauts said swear in a Bible or something like this.
		You really went to the moon.
		Did you really go to the moon?
unidentified		And the astronaut hauled back and decked him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I wonder if Marcus has thought, you know, anything about that, like why that astronaut might have been so sensitive on that subject.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wondered about that.
unidentified		SHARP!
		you Thank you.
		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from November 27, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Music At least one more topic I definitely want to cover with Marcus before we go to your phone calls.
		We're about to go to your phone calls.
		It should be very interesting.
		And that's the question of temperature, one of the main things we haven't covered yet.
		What do we know about the temperatures the astronauts would have been exposed to and whether or not the equipment they had was adequate to keep them alive?
		Marcus?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Good point.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Good point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it a good point?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tell me.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a good point.
		Well, I have a question for starters.
		What is the temperature of space?
unidentified		Cold.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		That's what most people would assume.
		Space, because it's a vacuum, which means there's nothing there, has no temperature.
		It's not cold because there's nothing to have a temperature until you put something in space.
unidentified		Like a spacecraft.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		If you put a spacecraft into space, it is immediately affected by the sun.
		The sun generates heat, it's radiant energy.
		If you ever tried getting back into your car when it's been parked in hot sun for a few hours, the interior of the car will be too hot to touch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		You switch on the air conditioning and after a few minutes it's comfortable and you can go about your business.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		In space, naturally, your spacecraft has an atmosphere inside it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In space.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		So you can breathe.
		Or you're wearing a spacesuit.
		But most of the time, if you're traveling to the moon, you're going to be traveling in what's called the shirt-sleeved environment of the CSM, the Commander Service Module.
		But that is affected by the Sun.
		And we have heard the phrase barbecue mode, whereby the spacecraft is rolled continuously, so it's heated evenly on all sides, just like a barbecue stick would do.
		Now, because the sun is generating heat, and the heat is hitting the spacecraft, some of it will be reflected, obviously, because it's an aluminium, fairly highly polished surface, but some will generate heat inside the spacecraft, so it has to be removed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		And it's removed by air conditioning, which is basically refrigeration.
		Now, when you have an air conditioning plant in your car, or in your house, or in your office, all that is doing is removing heat from inside the building and putting the heat outside the building.
		It's dumping it.
		But in space, you can't do that because space is a vacuum.
		Space is the best insulator of them all.
		That's why you have thermos flasks, which have vacuum sections between what you want to keep hot or cold and the outside environment.
		So in space, you've got this vacuum.
		So where do you dump the heat?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		And that is a question which has exercised a few people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe you use some sort of something metallic that sticks out on the non-sun side of the spacecraft and irradiates the heat into space.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, that would be the obvious solution, but because space is a vacuum, the heat has nowhere to go.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		When you do it on Earth, you're radiating the heat out into the atmosphere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay, so where does the heat go?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Now, the answer in terms of how one can anticipate it is that the heat is dumped into a water reservoir.
unidentified		And if you...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To the point where there was no longer any heat exchange, and then you'd cook.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		So what you have to do is to what's called explosively decompress the water, i.e.
		you vent it into space.
		You allow the water to go out into space.
		Okay.
		And that is called explosive decompression of water, which does remove a large amount of heat.
		It's a known method of removing heat.
		If you do that, you're going to create a very photogenic image of these water molecules exploding out into space.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like a whale blowing.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Just like a whale blowing.
		But in space it would be much bigger, quite dramatic, and if you get the right angle, you get a nice little rainbow.
		But I know of no photographs showing that occurring on either the spacecraft or, more importantly, on the space suits, because the problem exists on the spacesuits as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, didn't they have heat exchangers, what were called heat exchangers?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's right.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		If you have a heat exchanger, you have to exchange the heat from one medium into another medium.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you're saying that could not have been done in space, short of water and short of what you just talked about.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, on the spacesuits, they had water circulated in little pipes all around their body.
		And that removed the heat.
		Because in a spacesuit you're in a completely sealed environment.
		And because if you're walking about...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They would have been fried alive on the way to the moon and back.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Toast covers it quite well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Toast covers it.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		So we do have this problem of how they were keeping cool.
		And I don't have an answer to it, except I don't see any of the evidence for the solutions as offered by NASA, which is that they were kept cool by water.
		Because if you do the calculation, and I'm not going to do it now because it's a bit complex, but if you do the calculation, you can work out how much water is needed to remove a given amount of heat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And water is heavy, too.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		And water will retain that heat, and there wasn't enough water carried on the backpacks, these portable life Support systems.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, really, you're making the argument man couldn't have lived to get to the moon and back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This all had to be faked.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		I'm saying that it was highly unlikely that man could have got to the moon, done what we were shown he was doing, and got back in the really very good health that all the astronauts have experienced since their missions were completed, in many cases, 30 years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you heard recently that one of our astronauts was confronted by a man asking him to swear in a Bible or whatever that he really went to the moon, and the astronaut Hawnoff just knocked the guy for a loop.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What did you think about that?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		My immediate reaction was the headline, but the fist has landed.
		And I'm thinking, okay, guys.
		Yes, if you go poking somebody with a Bible, which is a holy book, either you're going to respect it and you're going to, you know, if somebody says, will you swear on the Bible?
		That's what we have to do when we go to court.
		We swear we will tell the whole truth, et cetera, et cetera.
		And we swear on the Bible because it is believed that we will tell the truth if we do so.
		Maybe the astronaut in question, Buzz Aldrin, objected to this.
		Maybe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And decided that Maybe a lot of other things, too.
		you know a lot of the astronauts who've come back have had real serious problems uh...
		problems with their marriages problems with drinking problems with Everybody has problems, but they've had a disproportionate number of these problems.
		And a lot of people think that it's because they've had to live the lie.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, that is one answer, isn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is one answer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is one answer.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		It is a possibility.
		It is certainly true that they have had a disproportionate amount of emotional upheaval in their lives.
		Marriages ending are a tragedy.
		Taking excessive amounts of stimulants is a tragedy.
		And these are men who basically are the best of the best.
		They were chosen from thousands.
		They were trained within an inch of their lives.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Psychologically profiled within an inch of their lives.
unidentified		Yes.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		You wouldn't expect the level of confusion that has evidently been listed on some of them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I have interviewed a man who's been on the moon.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		That's Ed Mitchell, I would say.
unidentified		Yes, uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And he said the damnedest thing, Marcus, when I asked him, this was the most amazing response I could ever have expected in my entire life.
		He said, you know, it's a funny thing.
		He said on this program, he said, when I was, the time I actually spent on the moon is more like a dream than reality.
		And to tell you the truth, I don't remember a lot of the visuals from when I was there.
		And I, you know, I just, that stopped me dead cold.
		I just couldn't believe that man said that to me.
		It was like not reality.
		It was like a dream.
		When I think back on it, I can't remember the impressions, and I can't remember.
		And that just blew me away, Marcus, that he would say that.
		What a strange response to an experience that should be engraved not just in your lifetime, but in all the lifetimes you have to come.
		Right?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		That is a very interesting response.
		I've met Ed Mitchell myself.
		I met him over in Britain.
		He was over here on business.
		I met him very briefly, and I found him a charming and easy person to talk to.
		Very, very nice.
		I didn't ask him about the moon.
		He was a guest in my country.
		It was not appropriate to confront him with such matters.
		But very interesting to hear that response to your question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you could have been socked.
		All right, listen, I've got some phone lines, and I'd like to get to them if that's all right with you.
		You know, some of them are probably going to be a little hostile.
		You never can tell.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		I look forward to that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, do you?
		First time caller align, you're on the air with Marcus Allen.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, I ask you to remember we've got kind of a transatlantic delay here, so it's like you've got to ask your question, then pause for the response.
unidentified		Certainly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		Right now I'm in Rochester, Minnesota.
		I'm a truck driver.
		Since I've got my CC radio, I can listen to a show on lots of stations, but I'm listening to WOAI 1200 out of San Antonio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you're doing that up in Minnesota?
unidentified		Yes, sir, Rochester.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, that's a big signal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, go ahead.
unidentified		Okay, my question is, I've heard a lot of reasons why we didn't go to the moon.
unidentified		Sorry, I'm nervous.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		My question is, what kind of proof do you need to say that we have been to the moon?
unidentified		I mean, do you need an astronaut on the moon waving a great big flag?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, actually, it's a pretty good question.
		Marcus, if you were to set out to try and prove the opposite of what you've been discussing tonight, and you were going to try and prove we've been to the moon, other than television and the photographs that were taken, what evidence would you cite that we have been to the moon?
		If you were trying to set out to prove the opposite argument, what would you use?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Very good question.
		It's a point which I do get asked, or I have been asked in the past, and it's very valid because I will always answer it exactly the same way.
		In brief, I would say an independently corroborated photograph of any of the six landers still on the lunar surface, or any of the three rovers still on the lunar surface.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, wait a minute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what they're about to do, right?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Isn't that what they're about to do?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		That's why I asked.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But wait a minute.
		This article in the London Observer, I think it was.
		The London Observer, right?
		Yeah, London Observer.
		Says that you're saying that it won't prove anything.
		If we take pictures, photographs of the lander would not prove that the U.S. put men on the moon, is what you're quoted here as saying.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		That is correct.
		When I was asked by the journalist who wrote the article, Robert Matthews, he asked me actually the same question.
		He said, What would prove it?
		And because he knew about this telescope, that was why he wrote the article.
		When I said that it wouldn't actually prove that anybody went to the moon, what he didn't write, but what I said in addition to that was more of a joke.
		It was, I've heard of Adobe Photoshop too, meaning obviously with computers you can do anything these days.
		Now, that was a fairly flippant reply, but it was trying to demonstrate that it's possible to produce photographs nowadays using computers where you can show virtually anything you like.
		You can show a shark swimming around Central Park if you want to.
		So to take a photograph of a lander on the moon, at some point I'm going to have to say, okay, what I'm looking at is what is real, or what I'm looking at is not real.
		If we can show a photograph taken on the moon, whether it's by an Earth-based telescope, as this article was talking about, basically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One in Chile.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		In Chile, yeah, it's a fairly new telescope.
		Or it was taken, or a picture taken from an orbiting unmanned craft.
		Now, there's an interesting point here, because in 1994, NASA launched the Clementine satellite.
		Right.
		And that contained 1990s technology.
		It was part, actually, of the Star Wars program development.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Cheaper, faster, all that stuff.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Cheaper, faster, brilliant bullets, all those things.
		And it was sent to the moon, and it was supposedly re-photographing the lunar surface in visible light, infrared, ultraviolet light.
		And we've seen some of the images from it.
		And I thought, oh, goody, you know, 1990s technology, yeah, we can probably see something pretty small on the lunar surface because spy satellites can pick out human beings on Earth from space.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, indeed.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		So we're told.
		And I believe they can.
		And this was possible back in the 1960s.
		mean the technology is quite remarkable and the famous way in which it is described well Well, on the Clementine satellite images, I've asked on the internet, I've tried to get images, and the best I can find is a pixel size, that is one individual pixel-only image, because it's digital pictures, of half a kilometer.
		That is not going to show anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It certainly isn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So this telescope then, presumably in South America, is going to be much better than that, right?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what they tell us.
		They can see a human hair at 10 miles.
		Well, you know, that sounds impressive, doesn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It does indeed.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		All that means at 240,000 miles, which is the distance the moon is, it can see something 20 foot across.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, that would be a start.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you might see the lander.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, what you'll probably see first of all is the shadow of the lander.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For one thing, they know exactly where to look, right?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what we're told.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		I've got all the coordinates of the six landing locations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So if it comes back, we get the shadow, we even get a little of the lander.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At that point, do you cave in and say, okay.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		I shut up forever.
		You do?
		I shut up, yes, because I've got plenty of other things I want to get on with.
		This is a very interesting subject, because there is an important side to it.
		There's a very important side to it.
		If the moon landings did not happen, let's just say that for the moment.
		If what we have been fed is basically a fabrication the last 30 years, what that means is that human travel in space is really very difficult indeed.
		What we've been fed, what we've been told is that human travel in space is very easy.
		We just need a whacking great rocket.
		We just need enough fuel and we can get to the moon.
		We need a bigger rocket, we can get to Mars, and we can explore the solar system.
		This is the logic behind it.
		But if human space travel is really such a very difficult undertaking, which I believe it is, I don't think humans are supposed to travel in space because it is such a hostile environment for humans, not for unmanned spacecraft, for humans.
		We will need to start examining something a little bit more sophisticated than chemical-powered rockets, which are basically the Model T forwards of space travel.
		They work, they do the job, but they're not Lexus.
		They're not Mercedes.
		So what you've got is basically a dichotomy.
		We're told on the one hand by NASA, yeah, look, we got to the moon, simple.
		Give us some more money, guys.
		We'll get to Mars.
		That's what we want to do next.
		Excuse me, there's a problem here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We can't even see.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, the problem was actually put into words by the new head of NASA, Sean O'Keefe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Who said what, very quickly?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		He made an announcement April this year.
		He said, in my tenure as head of NASA, I will have two objectives.
		One is the development of more advanced propulsion systems for space travel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the other.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		And two, research into the protection of humans from the dangers of radiation in space.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that is interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		The trip back in time continues with Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM.
		More somewhere in time coming up.
		Hold up.
		And I'm waiting for this over my life.
		Hold up.
		Can you hear it crying in the air of night?
		Hold up, hold up.
		You are listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time, tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from November 27, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, world.
		I am Art Bell, and this is Thanksgiving.
		Happy Thanksgiving, everybody.
		We are discussing whether or not man actually went to the moon with Mark Salad, who's the British distributor and publisher of the UK edition of Nexus Magazine.
		He rather thinks not, and we'll get back to him and your calls in a moment.
unidentified		He's a man.
		Loud noise Thank you.
		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time, tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from November 27, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Laurie, once again, Marcus Allen.
		Marcus, a very interesting story that I read to the audience in the first hour about some scientists here that actually, fairly soon now, are going to create life for the first time.
		They actually, it's in the Washington Post, just in the Washington Post, on November 21st, they're actually going to create a living cell.
		And then when they create the cell, this new thing, of course, they don't know, you know, it might not be a good thing.
		And so they're going to hobble it.
		They're actually going to hobble it so that should it somehow escape from the Petri dish, which will be its little universe, and it should get out into the oxygen and the world, it will die.
		It will be designed to be hobbled so that should it, you know, escape somehow, it will immediately die.
		Now, you were saying just before the break that you thought that perhaps we're not intended to go to space.
		And I had somebody who sent me a little message on the computer earlier saying that, yes, you know, and God hobbled man in the same way that we intend to hobble, hopefully, this little one-celled wonder, so that we cannot leave the planet and live.
		That we can do what we're going to do here on the planet, but we're hobbled and can't leave the planet.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		That is a very, very interesting point.
		Very good point.
		If you look at the environment of space as we've described it, it is lethal to humans, whether you talk about levels of radiation or not.
		Even if background radiation is not particularly unpleasant, solar flares are deadly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They are very unpleasant, yes.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Now, if we are designed, and one can get into a very interesting discussion on the origins of the human race, I tend to go along, I think, with your views on the subject.
		I've read your book, The Source.
		I find it very interesting.
		You're putting some very interesting points out there.
		Maybe we are designed.
		Maybe we are created.
		We are property, as Charles Fort so aptly put it.
		We are the creation of somebody we don't know.
		We call him God on occasions.
		We refer to him as the creator.
		But if it is a little bit more down to earth than that, that we are being manipulated, it's only very recently that we can do genetic manipulation on a small level, but on a higher level, yeah.
		Just a human cell in a petri dish is a start.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, now who would that little cell call God?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		That is the unanswerable question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it is.
		Well, I hope.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Mark Sellen in Great Britain.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Yes, this is Dr. Bishop in Omaha.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Dr. Bishop.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How are you?
unidentified		Yes, I'm the one that gave you the Nixon president for solving nuclear wars between Pakistan and India.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have a question for my guest?
unidentified		Yes, I was going to try to dispute most of Marcus's whole idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take on your best item and the radiation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		That's probably his biggest argument.
		All of these satellites, I think I just, I think you've got my blast.
		I think you can send two of them.
		The big thing, I don't know if he's aware of it or not, but the capsules or the modules all had a thin lead foil lining.
		And even the suits, the space suits had lead foil lining.
		And all of the computers, everything that would be electrically, have any electrical problem from a sun flare, including the cameras, all lead foil linings.
		Yes.
		And it just takes a little bit.
		It can't stop gamma rays, but it can stop everything else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you contend that lead foil lining would have been enough to protect both the astronauts and the film to a degree that neither one would be damaged.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		And if they were worried about a sunflare, what they would do is turn most of the capsule toward the sun.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you'd darn well have to be worried about a sunflare.
		He mentioned an M-class flare.
		We've had numerous X-class flares and even worse over the last few years.
		So during that peak period of the sunspot cycle, you'd have to worry a whole lot about sunflares.
		Now, okay, so Marcus, so his argument is that they used lead foil.
		Thin, albeit, but lead foil.
		You said, as far as you knew, they used no protection.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		I'm saying they used no protection.
		All right, I would ask one question.
		This lead foil, to be honest, I've not heard the term ever used before.
		I've heard aluminium foil, but I've not heard the term lead foil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		And maybe it's because I'm British and I've missed out on that one.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		All I would ask is, what weight per square foot was this lead foil?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yellow.
		As far as I knew, for heavy radiation dosage, it's got to be very, very heavy.
		That was certainly my impression.
		And so that you would have a weight factor with regard to the, you know, for the, Dr. Bishop also mentioned the cameras.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		We've not actually talked about the cameras used on the Apollo missions, but maybe this is an opportune moment to do so, because I've actually handled one of the Apollo lunar cameras, they're called.
		It's made by Hasselblad of Sweden.
		It's the best camera.
		Well, Hasselblads are the best cameras you can buy today.
		They were the best cameras you could buy back in the 1960s.
		They are medium format cameras, and they were constructed basically to the specification NASA requested of Hasselblad.
		The prime point is they didn't have a viewfinder, because you couldn't use a viewfinder with a spacesuit.
		So it didn't have a viewfinder.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You just point and click.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		You point and click.
		It also didn't have exposure meter.
		So you had to set the exposure dials, the shutter speed dial, which is on the lens on the front.
		You had to set that manually.
		You also had to set the aperture dial manually.
		You also had to focus it manually.
		But you couldn't see the numbers on the dials from inside the spacesuit, because I tried it.
		The shutter button is on the front of the camera, not visible from inside a spacesuit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you actually get into a space suit?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		I put on a mock-up of a space suit, which was basically a big...
		I couldn't see the dials.
		And you can't hear, in space, because there's no sound if a picture had been taken.
		You can't see if a picture had been taken.
		So my question is, how were these cameras protected?
		Because the electromagnetic spectrum in which the radiation exists will enter the camera as soon as you click the shutter.
		True.
		It comes in with the light.
		Absolutely.
		And therefore, you would expect to see damage on the film and you don't.
		And the other point about the camera is, how did they get such brilliant photographs when they only took one?
		Armstrong allegedly only took one photograph of Man on the Moon.
		And he then changed, look at another subject.
		Any professional photographer, if asked, you've got 100 photographs on this roller film.
		You're not allowed to use a viewfinder.
		You can't use an exposure meter.
		You've got to wear gardening gloves when you're focusing it.
		How many of the pictures out of 100 would you expect to get correctly focused, correctly composed, correctly exposed, and no heads cut off?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Almost none.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, most professional photographers might say 75-80%.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		I would say no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you mean, really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Under those conditions, I would say almost none.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		This is what we're expected to believe occurred on the lunar surface with the Apollo astronauts.
		They had a camera with those limitations, and they took brilliant photographs.
		I contend those photographs were taken in the training and simulation exercises on Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can clearly see you do.
		Hi, Dara.
		East of the Rockies, you're on there with Marcus Allen in Great Britain.
		Where are you, please?
unidentified		I'm in Denver.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Denver, Colorado, okay.
unidentified		Can you hear me okay?
		I hear you.
		Yes.
		I'm going to kind of come at the, I have doubts, serious doubts now of the Senate, the fact that we landed on the U.S., landed on the moon.
		And I'm coming at it from a different angle.
		I would think that if it actually happened, that there would be, given now, you know, it's the most historical technological event that has happened in our history.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		I would think that there would be a documentary with all the astronauts, you know, talking about, you know, what was going through their head and about the details of the mission where they, you know, you got a module going around the dark side of the moon and then it comes around and then they take off from the moon and they hook up and just all the complications and what was going on.
		I've never seen anything like that.
		Well, actually, now that you mention it, Because I missed it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess I did too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Marcus?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		I've not seen a film as described.
		Not in that respect.
		I've seen the films that have been issued by NASA to record the events.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, but he's talking about a post-documentary in which the astronauts were interviewed in great detail about their own.
unidentified		I've never even seen anything of a single astronaut talking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I, of course, had one on my program, sir, who his answers were very troubling.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		That's one of the key points.
		I think that if we assume the worst, if we assume that what I'm proposing is that man has not landed on the lunar surface, if that is correct, then the astronauts have to live a lie.
		They have to be able to persuade not only themselves, but anybody who asks about it, and obviously they're going to be asked about it a great deal.
		They have to persuade those people that what they are referring to actually happened.
		If they have to live a lie, and I do hope they don't have to live a lie, but if they do, it will cause, over a long period of time, a great deal of trouble for them psychologically.
		It would certainly cause me a lot of trouble for them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so if I had to live.
		And so it has caused them.
		I mean, nobody would argue with that.
		We all know what the record is.
		And there was no such documentary that I'm aware of.
		In fact, it was all sort of quiet hush-hush.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's all sorts of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, that's wrong.
		It wasn't even hush-hush.
		It was just not there.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		It was not talked about.
unidentified		Yeah.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		It was not talked about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you're quite correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Marcus Allen in Great Britain.
unidentified		Hello?
unidentified		Am I on the park?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on.
		Yes, it's you, sir.
		Where are you?
unidentified		Okay, I'm in Cherry Valley, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		My name is Tom.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Tom.
unidentified		And I have two experiences having been involved with NASA.
		I worked at Bell Labs 1963 to about 1965 for a division associated with NASA called Bellcom.
		And we did the early tracking analysis.
		And one of the points I would like to make is that, as I remember, back in 1963 and so on, in near-Earth, there are eight Earth stations that track a satellite when you have a near-Earth orbit.
		And it was implied a little bit earlier that perhaps instead of going to the moon, they simply went around right in near-Earth orbit.
		Needless to say, with eight Earth stations, some are in Spain, Azores, Arizona, Australia, it would mean that all eight stations, and there were civilians that work at these stations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not even to mention the Russian observations.
unidentified		Right, and they would all have to be involved.
		And then even more importantly, in 1968, I was at a communication base in Italy outside of Pisa called Coltano.
		I was installing a communication system.
		And that's when they landed, if you remember, August of 68.
		There were communication, and by the way, we were able to pick up the direct feed from NASA.
		There were no delays.
		It was the actual feed.
		And we had communication specs.
		There were maybe three, four of them, who taped every second of that actual launch.
		And in fact, you've given us a lot of money.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But there's so much for him to respond to already.
unidentified		Let me just say real quick, though, okay?
		When they took off from the moon, all right, as they were, and I heard it myself, so it's something I heard myself.
		So we're not only talking about simulating a video feed, we're saying there was a phony, they phonied up an audio feed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the communications.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, the man raised a whole bunch of questions, Marcus.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, very interesting points, because this evidence from the actual tracking stations is actually very relevant.
		Yes.
		Just one point.
		It was not August 68, it was July 69 that Apollo 11 landed.
		The idea that if my scenario that they just remained in Earth orbit is correct, then any halfway decent tracking station would be able to identify the Russians.
		Now, what one has to know about this is the frequencies on which the transmissions occurred and the number of stations that could receive that information.
		At the time of Apollo, the only stations that could receive the transmissions from space were Parks in Australia, Goldstone in California, Madrid, and three ships, one in the Pacific and one in the Atlantic.
		One of the points that is not generally known about, and has only actually recently come available, is that in the very early 1960s, the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis, quite accidentally this was discovered, that a radio signal could be bounced off the moon and picked up with a sufficiently powerful receiver on Earth.
		Now this was discovered quite by accident, but what it led to was secure radio transmission.
		If you transmit a radio signal out towards the moon, it will bounce back and a powerful receiver will pick it up.
		That was then utilized by the NSA, National Security Agency, for secure communications with military ships, vehicles and personnel.
		It wasn't generally known about because obviously the Russians would have done the same thing.
		In order to receive this signal, and you're a ham radio operator, you know about receiving radio signals.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I do.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		You have to know the frequency on which it's transmitted.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		If you don't know the frequency...
		Basically, you can go hunting forever.
		In order to receive these signals, you have to know the frequency on which they're transmitted.
		That frequency was not publicly available at the time of Apollo.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe that's why that guy was shaking down rather screaming, what's the frequency?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		If you don't know the frequency, you can dream up anything you like, or you can hear anything you like.
		Now, your caller would have worked at the receiving stations.
		They knew the frequencies.
		But did he also know that he may well have been listening to a frequency transmitted from Earth, bounced off the moon, and picked up at his receiving station?
		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hadn't thought about that.
		Moon bounce.
		I actually talked about it in the first hour of the program, and somebody called about that.
		Listen, Mark, you know what?
		We're out of time.
		We've done a whole show.
unidentified		Have we, really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And we've probably barely scratched the surface, but you do make some extremely compelling arguments.
		And I just really want to thank you for being here.
		It's been a joy having you here, and I'm sorry the program's over.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you, Art.
		I've enjoyed our time together.
		It has been illuminating for me as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My friend, Marcus, good night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or good day to you, I guess it is over there, huh?
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Oh, the sun's just come out.
		It's good morning.
		So I will take my leave of you now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, at least the sun is out there in the front child.
		You have a good day.
		See you later, Marcus.
marcus allen ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night.
		And here she is to take us out.
		Good night from the high desert.
unidentified		This is Crystal Chow Chow.
		Good night in the desert, shooting the stars across the sky.
		This magical journey will take us on a rise, filled with the longing, searching for the truth.
		We make it to tomorrow with the sun shine on you.
		Midnight in the desert, I'm a less than, ooh, a less than you.
		Mmm, mmm, mmm.
		Mmm, mmm, mmm, mmm.
		The night in the desert, and there's wisdom in the air.
		I've been looking for the answer.

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