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Nov. 22, 2002 - Art Bell
02:46:38
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Roswell UFO Crash - Bill Doleman - Bill McDonald
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Welcome to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from November 22nd, 2002.
From the high desert and the great American southwest, I bid you good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be.
I'm Art Bell and this is Coast to Coast AM, Friday night, Saturday morning version.
Tonight, we're going to do something very special.
The Sci-Fi Channel, as you know, this night aired a special on television.
That, um, you know, I understand.
I mean, there are production values in television.
It was a two-hour special, and you've got to drag it out to get your two hours of TV in, and so they did that, and that would lead, I'm sure, many people to say, ah, you know, it was like the opening of the Pyramid Door and stuff like that.
Well, yeah, it was, in terms of production values.
However, and this is a really big however, I think the wait was worth it, on a couple of very, very important counts.
Lies.
You know, I think that technology, and this is something my wife said after watching it, she said, you know, technology has caught up to the Air Force.
And so I'm going to tell you right at the very beginning of the program what they told you at the end, which was extremely profound.
No question about it.
Not a little lies.
Not a little white lies.
Not the mogul lies about Roswell.
But a much, much bigger lie.
Definitely a much, much bigger lie.
And, you know, that information absolutely is profound.
I mean, the smoking gun?
Pretty damn close, I'd say.
For those of you intimately familiar with the Roswell story, There would have been a lot of repeat information in there, but the witness testimony on the program was profound.
And then, of course, the famous Ramey memo.
And this is what they ended with.
And this is really the smoking gun.
It probably is a smoking gun.
On July 8th, one of eight photographs taken.
Very famous photographs.
You remember with General Roger Ramey and his Chief of Staff, Colonel Thomas DuBose.
And the piece of aluminum that they had up there is a lie, right, which they've now admitted was a lie, is itself indeed a lie, but boy, what they found.
After two years of research, a scientific researcher, Dr. Rudiak, I believe it was, actually took one of those photographs of those two men standing in front of the line one of them kneeling and uh... it has deciphered the text of the message the general was holding in his hand and it looks to me like it's accurately deciphered the text reads this is what
General Ramey was holding in his hand while that photograph was taken.
They actually zoomed in, used computers, and figured out what the message says.
And it says, among other things, Fort Worth Army Airfield acknowledges that a disk, in quotes, a disk is the next new find west of the cordon.
And, listen carefully, and the victims Of the wreck.
Victims, it says, of the wreck.
You forwarded to the team at Fort Worth, Texas, the aviators in the... The aviators in the disc?
Shipped by a B-29 Special Transport or C-47.
Now that's the text of the message, including fully readable lines like, and the victims of the wreck.
In the disc, they will ship.
In the disc, they will ship.
Now this is on the paper that the General is holding in his hand.
July 8th, 1947.
Now that means the whole thing's a big damn lie.
And that was revealed at the end of the program.
That's very non-trivial.
It's profound indeed.
If an alien craft landed, correction, crashed in the Roswell Desert in 1947.
That's very, very profound and you may note that sprinkled throughout the entire program.
They had a recent Roper survey that showed 6 to 7 out of 10 Americans believe all kinds of things.
6 of 10 or 7 of 10 or so say that it would not disturb their religious beliefs to find out there was alien life here on earth, that sort of thing, or alien life period.
Which goes back to the Brookings Institution study that suggests the opposite, of course, that there would be hell to pay if that were discovered.
And, of course, the program also focused on Dr. Bill Dolman, who's an archaeologist in New Mexico, who was commissioned to go by the Sci-Fi Channel And do an actual archaeological dig there.
They came away with a frustrating 66 bags of something.
We can find out more of what that something was from Dr. Bill Dorman, because he's coming up as a guest in a few minutes.
And following Dr. Dorman is Bill McDonald, who promises to take us on a virtual tour of the spacecraft that crashed at Roswell.
So it should be an interesting program.
William H. Dolman was born in 1948 in La Paz, Bolivia, to Edgar and Dorothy Dolman.
His father was a career officer in the U.S.
Army, and young Bill lived in Hawaii, Germany, and several U.S.
states during his youth following graduation from St.
John's College in Santa Fe, New Mexico.
He worked as a bartender, restaurant manager for five years, but had thoughts of becoming a writer while researching an article on excavations under the floor of a local museum for the Santa Fe New Mexican.
He fell into a career as an archaeologist at the Museum of New Mexico, where he worked in cultural resource management until 1981.
In 77, he began graduate studies in archaeology at the University of New Mexico and in 81 moved to Albuquerque to complete his MA in 82.
In the same year he began work as a project director for UNM's Office of Contract Archaeology where he has directed numerous cultural resource management projects including archaeological survey testing and excavation projects throughout New Mexico in In 1995, Dr. Dolman received his PhD from the University of New Mexico with his dissertation being based on a series of OCA projects.
In 2000, he became a principal investigator for OCA.
Dr. Dolman's research specialties include environmental analysis, prehistoric hunter-gatherers, we still have some of those running around, the application of geological methods to archaeology and computer database design, and statistical analysis.
Dr. Dolman was featured on tonight's program since they went there with the facilities to do a scientific investigation of the soil and look for possible artifacts and remember they did come up with 66 frustratingly unanalyzed bags of something Which, of course, begs the probability of another show on SyFy's part should they find something that radiates unnaturally.
in a moment doctor dolman on his part in this program
all right so uh... doctor dolman i would like to welcome you to the program and i
know you've had uh... like press interviews all day you've had uh...
party while you watch the t.v. show itself i guess which you haven't seen up
Welcome.
Good evening.
Is all that true?
Pretty accurate.
You've been doing a lot of interviews?
Been on the run, on the phone, whatever, all day for about two days.
All right.
You had not seen the program itself until tonight, right?
Absolutely.
Okay, you heard what I just said about it.
I'd be interested before we get into your part, actually, in the program itself, in your take on the program itself.
What do you think?
It fulfilled my expectations a lot.
I was quite impressed when we were out there by the film crew and the quality of their professionalism.
It was quite clear that Melissa Jo Peltier, the director, What had probably earned the two Emmys that she's acquired during her career.
She's done a lot of educational programming apparently and so they had given me a couple of other documentaries they've done like the Lost Dinosaurs of Egypt which is something if you ever get a chance to see it definitely should see because it's really well done and it's got lots of good animation and it's got some excited and Interesting young paleontologist in it.
So you knew the quality of their work anyway?
Yeah, and it fulfilled it that way completely.
It was also pretty much what I expected in terms of giving an overview of the history of the Roswell incident and all of the sort of everything from mythology to folklore that has grown out of it.
I mean, there's just reads and reads of information.
All right, well, again, before we really get into your part in this, removing yourself from the show for a second.
Just as a person who sat down and watched the program and listened to all the witnesses and listened to all the testimony and then the big deal at the end with the text message and all the rest of it, on a personal level, not a professional level, just on a personal level, how did all that hit you?
It was very interesting.
Actually, the point that I was trying to get at is that, in fact, I was pretty unknowledgeable of the details of the Roswell story and the history of all the research that's been done on it.
I went into the field with very little knowledge of it.
I mean, in New Mexico, obviously, it's a big cultural thing.
It's a big economic tourism thing.
Um, and the New Mexicans happily joke about it all the time, and anybody who's been to Roswell has noticed that they have alien heads on the lampposts, and the streets are full of UFO stores and things like that.
I've had that sort of anecdotal experience.
You know, I really didn't know much about it.
You're on KBIM and Roswell right now.
They're one of our affiliates.
Oh, well, hi folks in Roswell.
You're a very nice town.
I enjoyed being there.
Um, but you still haven't answered my question.
Just sitting and observing the program and taking in all that evidence that they presented, how did it hit you?
did in other words at any point through that program uh... or even at the end
we're going all gone
maybe they want uh...
i i didn't want to pull over but i was already aware of the
uh... allegations of government
Yeah, it absolutely is.
That's right.
I thought the text message was, you know, kind of damning in a way.
the allegations and b uh... and firmly convinced the government though is old
doesn't always tell us the truth that's true today as much as it probably
was back then yeah it absolutely is perfect right
i thought the text message was condemning
in a way i mean some of the things said in there what weren't exactly the story they were kneeling on their
uh... uh... but but also the sci-fi journal contacted you
Because you're, I guess, in New Mexico.
You're at the University and you're an archaeologist, so it makes sense they would go to you, right?
Well, pretty much, because despite the unusual nature of the site and the reported unusual origin of the site, it's still essentially just like any other archaeological site.
Something happened there and left physical evidence.
Crucial difference is probably that most of the time when we go to an archaeological site, there's some evidence on the surface that it's there.
Not always though, but sometimes, usually there is.
In this case, there wasn't.
So we had to rely on the UFO researchers Don Schmidt and Tom Carey, who in turn are relying on eyewitness accounts and on having actually been taken there by eyewitnesses or people who knew their witnesses and said, This is where it happened.
This is where there used to be a mark in the ground, which is now covered up.
You know, I didn't think they gave you enough time to comment on a lot of things.
I mean, they took, what, 66 bags out of there of something.
I don't know.
I want to ask you about that first, I think.
Give us a little hint of what kinds of things, now that the program is done, I don't think there's any... You're not barred in any legal way from doing that, are you?
No, I have a statement from them that says that the non-disclosure agreement that was part of our contract expired at 8 p.m.
Eastern, at the end of the first broadcast.
Uh-huh.
Well, all right, then it is now expired.
Just.
Um, what kind of stuff?
I mean, sixty-six bags?
God, that's a lot of bags!
That's a lot of stuff!
That's a lot of something!
Uh, so, could you, could you take out, could you remember any items that were recovered and describe them?
Uh, let me tell you about the sixty-six bags and then I'll talk about items.
Good, alright.
The sixty-six bags, I tried to do a count today.
The stuff is actually in under lock and key in a vault at Roswell that's being paid for.
sci-fi. We actually had 60 what we call FS numbers that stands for field specimen. The
number is tied to the location that that whatever it is came from and if multiple things come
from it they all get the same FS number.
So in other words, if you found something really startling, you could reference the FS number and go back to that exact spot.
Oh yeah, we can say it came from level 3 of grid 16, which is located at 1850 north, 1963 east.
And so we tie it down to a 50 by 50 centimeter area and a 10 centimeter level within that 50 by 50 centimeter area.
And so we had 60 FS numbers, and I believe we had something like 24 bags that contained things.
And then we had 60 bags that contained soil samples.
And what we did, our job out there was basically to look for two things.
Any debris that was in the debris field that had somehow been missed by the government cleanup, Right.
And then either because it was dragged into an animal burrow or into a pack rat nest, or it was so small they didn't notice it.
Would there have been, would there have naturally, Dr. Dolman, have been a number of things like that?
That even a team of GIs, you know, who usually pick up cigarette butts, are driven across the field to sort of pick up as they go.
Would there have been a number of things like you just described You know, there's a whole slew of different things you could bring to bear on that, but the statements that you came up with would be largely speculative.
Nonetheless, anybody who's dropped their mom's favorite pot or glass on a concrete floor or whatever knows that When something breaks, there are usually way more little pieces than there are big pieces.
There's actually mathematical models for how that comes out.
All the time I'm in electronics, Doctor, and I'm working on something, and inevitably, you know, one little damn screw falls out, and it falls into the rug, or it falls immediately right at my feet.
There's no way.
I already know.
I can't find it.
I call my wife.
Hon, come here.
I'm looking for one of these.
She'll find it.
But I'll miss it every single time.
So I can imagine GIs crawling across a field if that happened, as they have described.
They'd miss a lot of little things, wouldn't they?
Probably.
I would presume so.
I've heard various descriptions, but debris is usually described as being extremely lightweight.
So it could have blown around a bunch.
Who knows if it was made of little pieces or not, but, you know, if it acted anything like a glass or a pot, well, then there would have been more little pieces than big pieces.
Pack rats do collect shiny things.
And also, something hitting that hard would inevitably drive some things into the ground.
It wouldn't all be on top, necessarily, would it?
You know what, again, that's really kind of a speculative thing.
We had a number of discussions amongst ourselves out there about, well, you know, where would this stuff end up?
Would it be driven into the ground?
And there was one argument that, well, if it's really hard and heavy, yeah, it would be driven into the ground.
And if it's really light, maybe it would just bounce off.
So, you know, the answer to the question that you're asking in the long run requires an awful lot of speculation.
But what we did was we assumed that if there was debris there, And if it didn't get all picked up, I mean, we kind of went in there with an argument that it couldn't have all been picked up just as we just discussed.
I think that's right.
Then over the 55 years that has ensued since this event took place, some of it would have become incorporated into the soils or sediments on the surface through a variety of processes, including erosion, which would wash it down and also bury it in the low places, basically.
Uh, animals burrow in the desert on a regular basis, and they basically, over a long period of time, churn the soil.
Things that are on the bottom come to the top.
Things that are on the top go to the bottom.
They certainly do, Doctor.
Hold on, we're at the bottom of the hour already.
Uh, we'll have more of a stretch, uh, to discuss this as we come into the second half hour.
Doctor Bill Dolman.
Who's the archaeologist you saw on the Sci-Fi Channel is my guest.
You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from November 22nd, 2002.
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Coast to Coast AM, November 22nd, 2002.
Coast to Coast AM, November 22nd, 2002.
Out on the street I was talking to a man He said, so my brother's not the man that I understand
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The night featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from November 22nd, 2002.
After a while you get to recognize the sign.
So if you...
You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
The night featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from November 22nd, 2002.
Well, I've got the archaeologist's sci-fi hat on tonight.
Fascinating man, Dr. Bill Dorman.
William Dolman.
He was out there doing that dig.
24 bags of things.
Now, a lot of people out there are going to say, give me a break.
Things.
Well, I'll tell you something about analysis, because as you know, or maybe you don't know, I've got a part.
I've got a little, it's called Arts and Parts, bismuth, magnesium, bismag, material, really weird stuff.
And analysis takes a long time, folks.
The scientific method takes a long damn time.
This part still exhibits unearthly qualities about it.
Nobody really knows about it, and it's been tested.
It's been to Carnegie in Washington.
The little part that was sent to me anonymously, that many of you will remember from shows past, that's been through the mill.
And it took years.
In the end, it took years and we still don't have the answers.
But certainly many strange things were discovered about this part that is affectionately known as Arts Parts.
Really weird.
It was tested and it did some jumping with the high voltage and all kinds of weird things.
It levitated.
It did all kinds of things.
I've still got these parts.
And they were analyzed over a period of months, and then ultimately years.
So when you hear they've got 24 bags of things, then don't expect instant analysis.
I know that's what everybody wanted, but you're not going to get that.
but 24 bags of things that's a lot of things one thing obviously not at all
at the conspicuously absent from any discussion on that program was what the
things were We didn't know there were 24 bags of things versus dirt, you know, the dirt samples.
But we're going to get to that.
Doctor, welcome back.
You were talking about small animals, how they burrow.
The process is known to archaeologists and biologists as bioturbation.
There's actually an awful lot of research into the degree to which bioturbation affects artifacts on the surface and in the ground, and it's a subject of great interest to archaeologists, obviously, because they want to know how much the things that they're digging up have been messed with by animals and moved around.
You know, basically, if you could sort of do a high-speed video, you know, one of those time-lapse videos of the desert surface over, say, for the period of 55 years we're talking about, you know, it would look like a giant dust cloud, because these guys are kicking up dirt and digging it up on a regular basis.
And archaeologists have actually even gone out, buried things, and then waited 10 years and gone back to see how much they've moved around, and they've often moved around an awful lot.
Wow.
was to go to this skip site or debris field that's the initial point of impact according to the story.
It's the location that is best known and least controversial among UFO researchers as far as I know.
You bet.
And find the impact mark that eyewitnesses reported and find any of that leftover debris.
And we're talking about the debris now.
So we applied A variety of methods to help us find the debris under the assumption that most of it had been picked up, most of which was left, was really small.
And with the possible hope that if any bigger pieces had been there and had been dragged into a burrow or into a nest by a pack rat or something else, that it would be under the surface now what we might be able to detect it.
And the ways that we went about detecting it at digging holes in what we thought were the right places were The use of a high-powered metal detector survey that we did across the ground.
Actually, it was performed by a geophysicist by the name of Dave Heinlein.
How surprising were the results of that?
A single distinctive-looking anomaly was discovered.
And it gets called an anomaly because this is detecting something under the surface.
If I were to take that same instrument and go marching across a field in Iowa, for example, Would I be likely to find many such anomalies in any field?
It would really depend.
The thing is so sensitive that the nails that we drove into the ground to mark our grid system show up as big bright red spots.
Wow.
So did something underground.
Big bright red.
The anomaly that we got was actually a little less intense, but it was big.
It was several meters across.
Right.
And so we put test pits in there.
We also eventually used a backhoe to excavate that anomaly, you know, to run a trench through it and see what we could figure out about it.
Yeah.
But in the beginning, of course, all we had was the results of his survey, and it just tells us that there's something under the surface.
And so we put test pits into that location.
At the same time, we were also saying, OK, if animals buried stuff, maybe we should put test pits In places where we see evidence of animals burrowing, but not recently, longer ago.
So we put a testbed in a couple of those things.
And finally, figuring that, you know, water runs downhill, every geomorphologist and fluvial sedimentologist in the world knows that, and knows that, generally speaking, sediments get carried from high places to low places.
Right.
So we just looked at the way of the land, essentially, and decided where those low places were.
And put test pits in those as well.
Right.
The other geophysical prospection technique that we used is called electromagnetic conductivity.
To give you a little of the technical stuff, but not go into a lot of it, essentially, it's kind of a big radio antenna.
And it generates about an 8 kHz radio wave, and that goes into the ground.
Now when your radio picks up a radio signal, the same thing happens that happens when this radio signal goes into the ground.
The radio signal wave passes across your antenna and generates a little teeny current in that antenna.
Right.
Of course that little current is then basically decoded by your radio and turned into the sound that you hear.
Right.
But any flowing current in a wire also generates an electromagnetic field and if that current is flowing back and forth like the one being induced by that radio signal, a very weak little radio signal is going to be radiated back out.
So when this radio signal goes into the ground, anything in the ground that can conduct electricity, like wet soil, will do exactly just that, radiate back a really weak radio signal.
So what this electro-conductivity device does is it measures the signal coming back.
And it measures both its strength and it also measures its phase delay.
That is the difference between the time the signal was sent out and the time it was received.
Its most practical use being finding water, for example.
It could find water.
It could find buried metal.
In this particular case, what it was looking for was subtle variations in soil moisture.
The reason for using that technique, looking for subtle variations in soil moisture, Is that if there had been a gouge or furrow there, and it had filled in, which if it was there it obviously had done because it was no longer visible on the surface, then the soils that filled that gouge mark in would be softer and looser and more porous.
Remnants of the original surface that formed the furrow would be somewhat more compacted by the impact, and they would still retain the properties of very old soils, which are more cemented and less porous, essentially.
So, if there was a furrow, if it was buried, then the soils in it would contain a little more moisture than the soils around it.
Did they?
The conductivity survey turned up two hot spots.
It turned up three.
Two of them were lined up right along the center line of the furrow, as it was pointed out to be by Don Schmidt and Tom Carey.
You're talking about the main furrow, not the secondary furrow that you discovered that they pointed out on the show, right?
This is the main furrow, where Schmidt said.
Right, yeah.
The only thing is, we can't see anything on the surface, but he says he was taken there by eyewitnesses.
Gotcha.
This is where it was.
That's where it was.
We centered our whole grid system on that and ran, and I asked him, well, how much uncertainty
is there in this location?
And he said, possibly as much as 200 feet.
So we went 200 feet on either side as well.
In any event, when Mr. Heinen was done with his geophysical perspection and the conductivity,
and he called me and said, well, I've got hot spots, and they look to me like they're
right along the alignment of the front.
So the first test that we did were in those anomalies.
Because we actually did the conductivity survey first.
We did the metal detection survey later.
And so we put test pits into those.
And later we put backhoe trenches into them.
Yeah, I saw the shot of the big backhoe trench when it was finished.
And they showed you pointing to an exact area in that trench.
Right.
What were you pointing to?
What was that?
I was pointing to what I, what It just totally surprised me.
And what was that?
Well, we actually hadn't had a backhoe as part of the testing plan before we went out there because nobody thought the Bureau of Land Management would let us put backhoe trenches in their courts.
But when I got out there and I was standing there with Schmidt and Carey and the Sci-Fi people and we were talking about the strategies we were going to use and everything.
And I said, you know, if you really want to find that furrow, A backhoe is the answer to the question.
We can put little test pits in, but we've only got 8 volunteers instead of the 12 we thought we were going to have.
And you have to realize that if it was there and the government picked up most of the debris and there's only a little bit left, and we're talking about an area that is 120 meters wide and 300 meters long, that you've got a very big haystack and some Very few teeny weeny needles in it.
Sure.
Essentially.
Sure.
And so digging a couple of test pits is not necessarily going to answer the question, but you know, we're going to go out and we're going to dig test pits.
So how'd you get ahold of the backhoe?
Uh, I called the guy.
The guy that did it was a fellow by the name of, uh, Abihil Aragon.
He has been doing backhoe work for archaeologists for over 20 years.
No, no, I mean, how'd you get this past the BLM?
Uh, I... You didn't?
They came out and we said, you know what?
What do you think about us using the backhoe?
They said, well, we'll go back and find out.
I said, that was okay with them.
All right, so they gave permission.
Yes.
All right.
Excellent.
They didn't go.
Yeah, exactly.
So this is BLM land, by the way, folks, just so you know for sure.
It's BLM land, government land.
Absolutely.
And we've went through the normal process of filing for an archeological permit to do the work out there.
And so they approved the use of the backhoe.
And so we use the backhoe to do two things.
Um, a backhoe obviously is not a way to look for little teeny things, because if you try screening backhoe dirt, you're going to be there until the next century comes around.
Absolutely.
But it is a very quick way to look at what the dirt under the surface looks like.
So we ran backhoe trenches across the alignment of the furrow.
We ran backhoe trenches across the anomalies.
One of the major anomalies, the big anomaly that came out of the conductivity survey,
and we ran a backhoe trench eventually across the metal detection anomaly.
The backhoe couldn't be out there until the last day of the project because the operator
was serving on a pit crew on the Laguna Sacral race in California during the weekend.
But he did come out, and of course he's pretty fast, so we got our trenches dug on that last
day.
And at the very end of the day, I went to look at the trenches that he had dug across
the furrow, and I came across this feature you mentioned a moment ago.
You were pointing at it?
Yes, I was pointing at it.
I generally call it the Backhoe Trench Anomaly, or just the Trench Anomaly.
And in the show, you saw a picture of it.
It was kind of a lopsided, V-shaped feature, outlined by, on the left end, or kind of north side, An apparent line of very fine-grained sediments on the right side by a color difference between the soil inside it and the soil outside of it.
Now, what does all that mean?
Well, what that was this thing that, like I said, it was a feature.
The soil inside of it had kind of caved in as if it were softer, and if that rings a bell, I was talking about how the soil sediments that filled this thing in would be softer.
than the sediments on the side.
And it was sitting basically right where it was supposed to be because when I asked Mr.
Schmidt, I said, what did this furrow look like?
How deep was it?
He said, well, it was really kind of shallow, maybe only a few inches deep for most of its
length because the thing was skidding at that point.
Right.
But where it really hit, it was as much as two feet deep.
Right.
And this was one of the three trenches that I put across the location that he said, this is where it hit.
This is where I was told it hit.
And so what I was looking at was something that could be a filled in, lopsided, V-shaped Yeah, like, you know, think of your flying saucer and the edge hitting it, or maybe it had a keel, or, you know, whatever.
But I had an unusual feature in the middle of this trench, in what are otherwise very sort of monotonous looking soils.
How far down?
It went down to a depth of about, I'd say, 18 to 20 inches, and it was maybe a little over three feet wide.
18 to 20 inches down.
So the depth was right, the shape was more or less right, and the width was...
I mean, they said the furrow was reportedly about 10 feet wide.
This was more like about 3 to 4 feet wide, but...
Right.
You know, I'm not going to say, oh, well, 10 feet is exactly what it was,
because we're talking third-half of the Hersey evidence that's 55 years old.
Now, again, you're giving me good, solid sign of the evidence right now about what you found.
But, you know, it occurs to me as you're speaking, gee, as much as, say, two feet down, this thing may have gone.
And I'm thinking of a kite made of aluminum foil and balsa wood.
No matter its velocity, would not impact the ground to two feet, would it?
Not.
The pictures I've seen of the Project Mogul balloons, and certainly not the payloads that go with weather balloons today.
They showed me those when I went to the National Weather Service.
And their payloads are light.
They're little styrofoam containers with a few little lightweight electronic components in them.
Now in 1947 they might have been heavier, but not much.
Not much, right.
Because they'd be carried by a balloon.
So they'd more or less Not to my knowledge.
and and smash up right but they they wouldn't impacted grounded
this is what we're talking about here to couple feet not to my knowledge i'm way not an expert in
mail uh... weather balloons project mogul at the bryant research institutions including the military at
white sands and or or can be a lab
They all launch experiments that are airborne by balloons.
And the way they work is the balloon goes up and the higher it gets, the more it expands until it exceeds its elastic limit, and then it explodes.
And then the thing comes down.
But the payloads are, as far as I know, way too light to create something more than half a millimeter deep in the soil.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Okay, thank you.
So, I mean, in your mind, there's no question this is This was an anomaly.
It looked like an anomaly.
Now, I didn't probe it.
I didn't test it at that time.
I said, well, you know, this is just so strange.
I am so surprised.
And I'm not going to touch it.
I took a photograph of it.
Okay.
Let's look ahead for a second.
If you had time and money, Doctor, and you could go back there and begin to now research in that furrow that was dug by the backhoe, would there be a lot you could do?
I think so.
I'd want to excavate it like an archaeological feature, which would mean coming down on top of it.
And I, in fact, did go and do further investigations on it.
Oh?
After the filming.
Oh?
Because the last day when I found it, and at the time, I sort of, it was a little bit of a, just a crazy zoo, because it was starting to get dark.
We were waiting for the helicopter to get back.
Yeah, that's TV.
I know, it's TV.
And so anyway, you've been back.
What additional things have you found out?
Um, the first thing was that when I Came back about, let's see, I've got to look at the calendar here for just a second.
Yeah, I found it on September the 24th and I got back to look at it the first time about October 5th.
So that was a little over a week and a half and then I went back and looked at it more On October the 11th, and then I did some final looking at it about a week after that.
And finally I worked up the nerve to kind of start scraping away at it and seeing what I could find.
I ended up taking soil samples and stuff like that.
And it mostly, when I first went back to it and after that, had faded.
Second of all, some of the features that stuck out like sore thumbs in the photograph, and when I originally looked at it, Had also somewhat disappeared.
Now, first question, did anybody go in there and fool with it besides me?
I'm really certain that didn't happen.
Alright.
But I can't promise.
Well, I'll be there.
I have a video camera there for those days.
Doctor, hold on.
We'll be right back after the break.
Take a break, a good break, and we'll be right back.
Did anybody mess with it?
No, he says.
You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from November 22nd, 2002.
This is a song that I wrote in the early days of my life.
It's called, I'm a girl who's riding. Who will be her lover?
While you're alive, you've never seen a woman taken by the wind.
Would you say if she promised you heaven, would you ever win?
She wears the wind She is like a cat in the dark
And then she is...
Sweet dreams are made of this Who am I to disagree?
I travel the world and the heavens deep Everybody's looking for something
Some of them want to use you Some of them want to get used by you
Some of them want to abuse you Some of them want to be abused
Sweet dreams are made of this Who am I to disagree?
I travel the world and the heavens deep Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Tonight's program originally aired November 22, 2002.
Good morning, the archaeologists that went to Roswell for the Sci-Fi Channel.
Dr. William Dolman is my guest.
And now you're beginning to hear things you didn't hear or see on the Sci-Fi Channel tonight.
What he thought had been there, or in fact what had been there, has begun to fade.
He says he doesn't think anybody messed with it, but it's begun to fade.
That's really curious.
We'll find out what he means in a moment.
Once again, from New Mexico, here is Dr. William Dorman.
Doctor, so we left the last hour and here this was fading.
What you had captured in a photograph, And seeing with your own eyes, when you came back on site, was fading.
That's hard to understand.
How could that be?
There's actually a pretty simple explanation for it.
Okay.
On the 18th of September, a front came through and it brought with it a fair amount of, a pretty substantial amount of precipitation for our deserts anyway.
Right.
And that, especially because it was September, not in the middle of the summer, Most of that moisture went into the ground and stayed there.
In the middle of the summer, of course, it's going to dry back out, and it's going to come up through what's called epapotranspiration through the plants, etc.
But a lot of it went in, and it just tends to fan out into the sediments until it's kind of reached a limit that's kind of determined by the cohesive forces of the individual soil particles and so forth and so on.
And so, essentially, it faded a lot in terms of just drying out, I think.
Now, are you referring to that portion which you could see and explore, or the entire affair?
Well, all of the dirt was drying out.
And, you know, once you dig a hole into that ground, the sides of the hole are going to expose the moist dirt.
We're not talking dripping wet here.
We're just talking slightly moist to the air.
And it will dry out.
It will dry out overnight, practically.
But one thing is, is there now, is there additional buried evidence, or is the fact that you dug the ditch and you got right into the middle of it, does that mean it's now all gone?
You know, that's one possibility I considered, because when I finally went back and also scraped at it, I thought, well, maybe we just happened to hit the central portion of it with tobacco and totally obliterated.
Now, if you imagine the scenario that supposedly created the furrow, it should have some length
to it.
In other words, it wasn't like it bounced and created a little hole in the ground.
It hit a glancing blow and created a gouge, a scar of some kind.
So one thing that I noticed was that I couldn't really see it in the other side of the trench.
This trench is only about three feet wide.
That was kind of like, well, if it's not on both sides of the trench, maybe it's not something.
The other possibilities that occurred to me were that It was a coyote burrow or some other kind of large animal burrow.
There are coyotes out there.
There are kit foxes out there.
They dig fairly substantial burrows.
And maybe the burrow was dug and then eventually collapsed.
And after it collapsed, the rest of it filled in.
And I actually went to a burrow on the site and measured the downward angle of the entrance And compared that downward angle with one side of the lopsided V, the shallower side, and the angles were within, you know, five, ten degrees of each other.
Uh-huh.
So that seemed conceivable.
The other possibility that occurred to me was that the feature had been created by the back of a bucket wiggling as it was excavating.
Uh-huh.
In other words, the V-shaped figure that you could see in the photograph, that you could see in the show tonight, Would have been created with the backhoe digging in at a shallow angle and then pulling up at a steeper angle.
Or it just wiggled sideways in the middle of digging.
Now, I happen to know that this guy doesn't normally dig that way.
He goes down a little bit and then scrapes back a long ways, kind of shaving it off.
You know, they actually showed him digging and I didn't see it digging that way at all.
It was a very clean swath he took.
In any event, when I thought, well, OK, maybe this was created by the backhoe, especially because, you know, it seemed to not go into the profile very far at all, as far as I could tell.
Right.
Now, before I get to that, I will say that what I did was, when I was finally there on the last visit that I made, I said, OK, I'm going to try and recreate the soil moisture conditions of September 24th.
And I got me a couple of spray bottles, and I just sprayed the face of the profile and wet it down.
Yes.
Again, to basically make it moist, not dripping wet or anything like that.
And I took more photographs of it.
And there was a little hint of it still there.
Not much, but a little hint of it.
Armed with that, I went back thinking, okay, this was created by the Backhoe.
I said, okay, I'm going to call the fellow that did the Backhoe excavation and ask him if it could have been created by his backhoe. And I also emailed him the same photograph
that was on the show last night, or tonight. Last night now. And he got back to me
and he said, no, it could not have been my backhoe pocket. I don't dig that way. And
furthermore, I felt it with my backhoe.
Now when this guy says he felt something through a backhoe, a lot of people go, what?
Oh no, I understand.
But I've seen him do it.
I have literally been on a site with this guy and he will be digging away and I'll hear his machine power down and I'll know that he found something and I'll go over and look at it.
He will literally feel it.
That's, I mean, you know, I guess it's the sensitivity of the hydraulics or whatever.
Oh man, machine meld.
You can feel when there's a different pressure that just occurred.
Well, it works for him anyway.
Yeah, I understand.
And so he said, I felt it.
I got out.
I looked at it.
I pointed it out to the still photographer.
The still photographer looked at it.
He saw it too.
And so I was about to take this thing and say, well, I guess I just have to accept the fact that it's not nearly the exciting thing that I thought it was.
And here I have this guy telling me, well, no, it really was there.
I saw it.
I felt it.
It was softer in the middle.
So now I don't know what to think.
But I had him leave it open.
And one possibility, again, is that doing what was done might have destroyed a lot of the evidence.
It could be, but if we were in the right place, if the orientation of the furrow that was pointed out to us was more or less correct to the southeast, and now we jump into the realm of speculation, but if the blow was a glancing blow that created more than just a pockmark, then either It was only three feet wide, and we just happened to get the only three feet that were there.
Or else there's more to it.
That just doesn't seem real likely, does it?
Not really.
Again, the information you're basing your speculation on, of course, is subject to an awful lot of questions from a lot of people.
But I mean, to say that is almost in itself speculation, because there's so much more that could be looked at.
Yeah.
In any event though, all we could do is go with the information that we were provided and that was that there was a gouge.
At the initial impact end it was as much as two feet deep.
Beyond that we do go into speculation.
I found something that looked pretty unusual and I really literally sat there looking at that thing late in the tenth day of the project and I went, holy, and I won't repeat the rest of it.
Yeah, I got it.
But I was totally surprised.
I really was totally surprised.
You know, people will probably always question my impartiality while I was out there, but I represent the University of New Mexico.
Yeah, I don't question it at all.
And I think you're giving it to us good and straight at the moment.
I appreciate that.
This is fascinating.
Now, let me jump, if I can, to the bags.
I mean, okay, I understand, what'd you say, 60 soil samples?
60 soil samples.
Okay, fine.
Have yet to be analyzed.
But then you said 24 bags of Right.
I'm going to give you a little magic term.
It's an acronym.
The MUO.
It was used in the show some, and it was an acronym for a phrase that we came up with because the question arose, okay, we're going to go out there and look for debris.
We're not exactly sure what it's going to look like, but we think it's going to be pretty strange.
So, what shall we do with this stuff?
Who's it going to belong to?
And so I said, to be unbiased, we know there's a potential that we might find some Native American artifacts out there.
I don't think we had any in the pits, but on the hill nearby, there clearly had been some kind of visitation because there are little bits and pieces of stone debris from their tipping.
And we figured pretty much if we found a horseshoe nail or an old tobacco can or something like that, it'd be pretty obvious what it was.
And the natural things, I made a point of showing all the excavators what natural things look like out there.
And the natural things out there are pretty much plant roots, insect casts, little bits of rock that haven't been altered by people, and dirt.
So that pretty much leaves something that we call a historic material of uncertain origin.
Now, nails, pieces of cans, that kind of thing are automatically discarded and not regarded as things that went into the bags, right?
Well, if it's an artifact, it went into a bag, but that's my understanding.
Let's see, we've got one.
It probably means one artifact of a Native American artifact.
Oh, you did?
Yeah, and we got about 24 things that on our form were listed as other.
Other?
Other.
But that others was the column that we used on our form, our logging form, to indicate that someone had recovered something that qualified as a Hamua.
They looked at it.
They said, this is not natural.
I don't know what it is.
It's not Native American.
I still don't know what it is.
I'm going to stick it in a bag, and it's going to end up in a vault in Roswell.
That's what happened.
Do you recall getting a look at any of these unidentifiables?
Very few of them.
And the reason for that was, there were a number of reasons for that.
I didn't have the time.
I was running around like a headless chicken running an operation that involves eight volunteers, a camera crew from California, VIPs from the Sci-Fi Channel, visitations from BLM archeologists and other folks, the caterer, etc., etc., etc.
Two, anything that might be that, I pretty much wanted it to just go in a bag and we weren't going to talk about it anymore.
I see.
Not lots of hullabaloo, which would slow things down even more.
The few that I did see, I really couldn't tell you what they were.
One was a thin thing that was about the color and thickness of duct tape, but it wasn't duct tape.
It might be plastic, but again, I wasn't out there to analyze this stuff.
I was out there to dig it up and put it in bags and do my best to ensure the site integrity.
We had a whole slew of means, methods that were kind of unusual for us.
To try and make sure that nobody could salt the excavation overnight or anything like that.
And then one of my staff found a bizarre little blob of orange stuff on the surface and when the time came we just measured it in using our transit and stuck it in a bag and it went off to Roswell under lock and key.
But most of the stuff I did not see.
I mean, 24 bags of things, that's a lot of things.
A lot of things.
And as I mentioned earlier in the show, you know, I had something of very much unknown origin, which we ended up sending back to Carnegie for all kinds of radiation tests and all kinds of weird things.
And it took so long.
Americans want everything fast.
I mean, they want to know exactly what you found in the 24 bags of things.
They want to know exactly what those things are.
Are any of them not of Earth?
Are any of them odd?
That's going to take a long time and an awful lot of money to determine, isn't it?
I guess so.
The problem is I'm not a material scientist.
Archaeologists use material scientists of various kinds for a lot of things, everything from figuring out what volcanic mountain a piece of obsidian came to, to Sure.
at burned uh... captured uh... to get a thermal luminescence data sure really
material science but uh... so
you know i'm a lot of time i have nowhere near qualified to say what kind
of analyses are things should be subjected to but if you get out of the
analyses would demonstrate that something was clearly dot of this earth
sure but if you get some something where you've got a test down to an electron
scanning microscope that kind of thing
uh... you're talking about time and money you certainly talking about money
uh...
What I think should happen with these things is they should go to a competent forensics lab or a materials lab and I think discussions about that are going to be held sometime in the near future.
In many respects, archaeology is an awful lot like the current series of shows that are real popular like Crime Scene Investigation and Crossing Jordan.
You know, it's an eclectic science that brings in scientists from other fields an awful lot.
Same thing with looking at the crime scene.
An archaeological site is just a real old crime scene.
You're absolutely right.
It costs a lot of money to have things analyzed and I think, you know, for example, if the FBI wants to analyze something real quick and they have some of the best labs in the country, well, they can do it quick, so it's probably more A matter of money than time, but again, I'm not an expert in material science and materials analysis.
Well, but you do understand that.
I mean, as I said, I had my own piece tested.
You know, experts took it away and took little hunks of it and puzzled over it and did all kinds of spectrography work with it and electron scanning microscopes and oh my gosh.
They went wild with that and found a number of anomalous things about it.
And this is just a little piece, right?
I'm trying to imagine coming up with a few pieces that require that kind of investigation to understand if we've really got something or have absolutely nothing.
So, they've got a lot of work to do.
I'm just saying that Americans, you know, when they're watching a show like that, They say at the end of the show, oh God, look, all those bags, and we don't know a damn thing about them, and we're not going to for a while, would be the truth, wouldn't it?
Certainly, we're not going to until someone who is competent to analyze them analyzes them.
Maybe, as you pointed out, it might take a number of different kinds of analyses in a number of different laboratories.
And, you know, actually, since I'm probably going to be consulted on what we should do, I'd like to ask you a question, if I can.
Fire away.
What kind of analysis do you think would be best suited towards determining if something was definitely not manufactured on this planet?
Boy, are you asking the wrong person!
I think that when they break something down, and I'm giving you a very non-scientific generality that I think I do know about, when they break something down chemically, Something of this Earth has a certain atomic structure to each part of it.
And I think that what they look for are atomic structures not common to Earth.
That's what they kind of hunt for.
If one of these pieces in one of these bags proves to be that interesting, And it turns out that you found it in that place, then the case, it seems to me, begins to build pretty heavily.
Because, I mean, what are the odds of finding something that basically doesn't look like it's of this Earth in that particular place?
You know, the scientific method even would suggest that, gee, if that turns out to be the case, we probably have something here, don't we?
I don't know.
Talk shows, doctor, what do I know?
You're the archaeologist.
Well, what do I know, right?
Anybody who's been to a gem and mineral shop has found that parting with a few bucks, usually less than a hundred, and rarely more than about ten or fifty, something like that, although you can't get more than a thousand, you buy a meteorite.
All meteorites are not of this earth.
That's right.
But they have some pretty characteristic features on them, too.
On the other hand, they like to slice them and show the internal crystals.
I mean, they were able to determine we had a meteorite from Mars, although there's a big controversy about that.
Listen, we're coming up to the break point.
Hold on, Doctor.
Dr. William Dolman is my guest.
He was the archaeologist featured on the sci-fi special tonight that, though it took a while to get there, I thought had some incredible, just incredible revelations.
You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time, on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from November 22nd, 2002.
The Coast to Coast AM concert was held at the San Francisco International Airport on November 22nd, 2002.
The concert was held at the San Francisco International Airport on November 22nd, 2002.
Be that girl, what's that?
Friday night and the lights are low Looking out for a place to go Where the red and white music's getting in between You've come to look for a scene Anybody could be that guy.
Not as young and music high.
With a bit of rock music, everything's fine.
Don't even lose your chance.
Oh, when you get the chance.
You are the dancing queen, young and sweet, oh, dancing queen.
You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight, an encore presentation of Costa Costa AM, from November 22nd, 2002.
We're talking about the sci-fi special that ran last night now, and we've got the archaeologist who did the dig, Dr. Bill Goleman.
He's a guy in charge from the University of New Mexico, and he's my guest right now.
In a moment, we're going to ask about that second furrow, that one that he went sort of running over to.
stay right where you are there are great mystery not quite as great as that of ross
well itself is suggested by somebody calling himself and use too fast last
me southbound That means he's a trucker out there.
And he said, you know, good show, but why Bryant Gumbel?
And Angus, Southbound Angus there, buddy, you're right.
Indeed, why Bryant Gumbel?
Bryant Gumbel, I've known for some time, not personally, but certainly professionally.
And Bryant has a usual, very apparent disdain for things of this sort.
Is liable to chuckle and smirk and laugh, and I'm sure you've seen it on occasion when interviewing on this sort of subject.
And I thought Bryant was particularly, with the exception of one out-of-place smile at one point, kind of a little smirk, a little smirky smile, he was pretty attentive and very serious, sort of like Mr. Gumbel had some sort of epiphany out there.
I don't know.
Just wondering.
It's a great mystery anyway.
Dr. Dolman, welcome back.
Good evening again.
Good morning.
Oh yes, good morning.
I know it's the end of a very, very long day for you.
I understand that.
During the course of the program, when they first showed where they thought the debris field was, they followed very closely thereafter with you discovering a second furrow.
It showed you almost like running over there and saying, Oh my God, or whatever plane pilots say, just before they auger in, or whatever, you know, a big expletive.
If you'd told me this was it, I'd have gone, oh my God, right away, or something like that.
You know, so, I mean, that's pretty close.
They said it was like a quarter mile, and it was an obvious big, long something in the ground, right?
Yeah, it was a little closer to half a mile, but if you connect the dots between the furrow, skip site, debris field area where we worked and the final crash site, the coordinates for which were given to me by Tom Carey, this thing that you're discussing, in which I discovered, is pretty much right on the line, those dots.
Oh, really?
Really?
Yeah.
In other words, you can draw a line to the, you're saying the final site, which was miles away, right?
Which was miles away.
That this other furrow would have been more in line with that final crash site?
Very close.
So, you know, it didn't concentrate very long on your examination of this other furrow at all.
In fact, sort of glossed over it in a way.
I mean, it was very exciting, but it looked kind of like in the program it wasn't hollowed up on.
That's correct.
They did come out and film me talking about it, and I found that it was actually something that we found, or I found, or I and my crew saw.
Right.
When we first went out there, I'd say at least by the second day, driving in every morning, We could see it from the road.
It was about, I don't know, 150 yards from the road.
And it was a little bit of a slash along the hillside.
If you recall from the show, they showed some long shots of it, and you could see this linear feature going across the hillside.
Yeah, it was a slash.
You're right.
And it's the kind of thing that as archaeologists who go out and walk around the landscape looking for things, our eyes are...
We're just used to picking out subtle things that a lot of people would not notice, and nobody else had noticed it.
We kind of turtled and chuckled about it.
Finally, on the last day, as I was waiting for the backhoe to come in, he was moving real slow because he had it mounted on a big trailer and redded ranch roads, and he was going across me to go real slow.
I said, okay, this is my chance to go look at this thing.
So I parked my vehicle at the top of the hill so Ali could see it as he towed his backhoe in and then went in search of this thing.
And I came across it and I looked at it and essentially what we're talking is about a 10 foot wide, 100 foot long, eroded, flat-bottomed, kind of straight-sided, Depression.
Depression, okay.
Well, as an archaeologist, what did that look like to you?
I mean, did it look like water erosion or did it look like something went skidding through there?
I mean, of the two, as an archaeologist, what would you think created that?
Well, I looked at it and I said, OK, what could have created this?
Clearly, it was eroded, but it was about 10 feet wide.
It kind of curved a little bit, and so I started thinking about the things that would do something like that.
One was I asked myself, OK, is this just a natural erosion channel?
The desert is full of these things.
You've got nice grassland and all of a sudden there's a little gully there.
Yeah, I'm here in Nevada.
We have those.
Out there, if you go back and look at the show again, you'll notice that the hillsides just don't have those things on them.
I couldn't find another one.
They look like gentle rolling hills.
They're gentle rolling hills with pretty stable soils on them.
Yeah, that's what it looked like.
I did find and photograph a few little gullies, and they were always really shallow, just like this feature, but they were always at the bottoms of the little rolling valleys.
So probably not natural erosion.
Well, they were quite possibly natural erosion, but the point is that they were in the bottoms of the valleys and not on the sides.
No, I'm talking about this particular one.
In terms of looking like natural erosion?
Yes, that's right.
It did, with the exception... Yes?
That it didn't go downhill, and you've heard the old thing about water going downhill.
You told me about that early on.
Yes.
The archaeologists know it all the time, that water seems to continually go downhill.
Well, it's just that old thing about water and gravity.
Yes.
Anyway, this thing angles across the slope.
It doesn't go down the slope.
Oh, well, son of a gun!
And I did some really detailed analyses to show that.
I had my GIS cartographer guy Determine the approximate slope for me, and we mapped the feature, and I took angles, you know, using a Brunton compass, adjusted for magnetic north, so that within a couple of degrees, at least, I could determine at what angle it ran to the prevailing slope there, and it was about 23, 25 degrees.
And from all of that, of course, you could actually, in a way, determine the trajectory of something that might have created that if in fact that's the way it got created and then and then you notice that it matched up with the final crash site.
Well the trajectory, the angle of the feature itself, it curved slightly but the average angle of the feature itself was 84 degrees from true north.
And what does that mean with regard to the final crash site?
The angle of the alignment of the furrow and the angle that takes you from the skip site debris field to the final crash site, at least to the coordinates given to us by Tom Carey, is about 124 degrees from true north.
So it didn't line up with that angle, but the spot where I found that feature does line up with the initial impact and the final impact.
Son of a gun!
That's kind of what I said.
Son of a gun!
Uh, so then why, uh, didn't the Sci-Fi Channel run over, um, at this point?
I mean, once you discovered all of this, after all, uh, you said, uh, under a half mile.
Gee, they could have made that mistake easily, uh, it seems to me.
That much of a mistake.
I guess they could, but you're talking to the wrong guy when it comes to assessing whether they made mistakes or were capable of making mistakes.
They totally relied on Kerry to tell us where to look.
I understand, but I was just going, well this is just really ironic.
Yeah, ironic.
So, do you think the Sci-Fi Channel should have said, okie doke, this looks like a real strong possibility, let's put some camera time and talk time on this?
At least because it's so doggone interesting, along with what we already have done.
Would you have thought they should have done more with that?
I probably spent close to an hour being interviewed at that feature.
And it just didn't make the cut?
I guess it just didn't make the cut.
Now, on top of the irony of finding something that didn't look like a potential furrow, and when we went back it was actually the people of my crew Who looked at it and pointed out to me that there was a portion of this feature that was there that wasn't eroded.
And it had this sort of round-bottomed, tapering topography to it that you would think would be created by a round-bottomed thing sliding.
And that left me looking at something that was even longer than a hundred feet.
In other words, impact.
In other words, compression in impact.
Yeah, the earth was dented and erosion had, you know, it created an instability at some point that erosion had started to exploit that instability, as it were, and about half of it was eroded and about half of it was still intact.
I'll be darned.
And I've got pictures of that, and it was then that part of it happened.
Oh, come on.
That's not it.
And then I started looking, and you could kind of see subtle differences in the grass growing there, and you could see the subtle depression and all that kind of stuff.
And our mapping of it was a pretty low-level mapping of it.
But I saw what they pointed out to me and photographed it.
And so now we have a feature that was close to at least 200 feet long.
My, my.
There was absolutely no evidence that for, you know, I explored the possibilities.
The original channel we've explored, and it didn't seem to work.
That wouldn't sound like that, no.
Because it didn't run downhill.
Yeah.
And you just don't get those kinds of features on the hills out there.
Okay, how about an old road?
And I've seen a lot of old roads, including the Camino Real and other things, and they get grown over and they become more and more subtle with time.
They pretty much, you can always see their trace.
I couldn't see anything.
Another thing, old roads generally have ruts.
The ruts are what a road, and the stuff in the middle pretty much stays intact, because nothing bumps it and disturbs it.
That's for darn sure.
And I went out and found old abandoned two-track roads in that area, and sure enough, they were like that.
They were grown over, but the ruts were there, and the bump in the middle was there.
You could see that old road.
It was flat-bottomed.
The uneroded part was kind of round bottomed, just slightly depressed.
The eroded part was flat bottomed.
It wasn't a road.
There wasn't any uneroded two-track past it in either direction.
Did you bring back any soil samples or thing samples from that area?
No, I did bring back one thing, which was just piled irony on top of irony.
Oh, what was that?
Well, I went walking around and said, well, maybe there's some debris around here.
Of course, good.
About a hundred yards away from it, I found a weather balloon.
Oh, of course, I saw that.
Well, I'll be whatever it was.
I was a little, oh, why did I say that?
No, it was good.
The fact of the matter was they came back and filmed it and we were actually recreating the discovery in the show.
I just kind of fell out of my chair when I found a weather balloon next to something that looked like a real furrow to me.
Imagine yourself, you've been hired to go out there and look for a furrow.
Maybe you did find one.
Is it fair to say, even though we now know, of course, they identified the weather balloon as not being older than 10 years, so it ruled it... That was a wild guess on the part of a National Weather Service person.
Person.
But even so... It didn't look 50 years old to me, either.
Right, okay, so... Right, 50 years ought to do a lot to a balloon material.
But even if that had been a balloon, had come down right there, it didn't make that, like, 200 foot long indentation, did it?
Presumably not, for the reasons that we discussed earlier.
Exactly.
You have to admit, I had a tremendous irie on my hand.
I found a furrow, and I found a balloon to be 100 yards apart.
That's what makes me think that maybe that's why, if they played it down intentionally, that's why.
I thought they played the balloon up, and then Came crashing back down with what the National Weather Service guy said.
Yeah.
That's what I thought they did and instead they could have spent the time with that second furrow which to me sounds eminently possible and certainly as interesting or perhaps more interesting than the area they specifically concentrated on.
Quite possibly with the following exception.
I'm not sure if we discussed this earlier or not, but Dave Hyman of Sunbelt Geophysics who did the conductivity survey and the metal detection survey.
Yes.
I also did another research project in which he got aerial photography that was taken in 1946.
That's the closest to before 1947 he could find.
Right.
an aerial photography from 1954 and uh compared them. Yes.
Thinking that if there was a gouge, it would show up on the 1954 photography, but not on the 1946 photography.
And he did find a feature right smack about almost exactly where it should be on the 1954 photography, but it was also on the 1946 photography.
After the project was over and after they had done filming me looking at the weather balloon in the alternative furrow, I acquired that aerial photography from Mr. Hyman and inspected it myself.
And I did it using a mirror stereoscope, which the photographs are in pairs that overlap so you can actually see the ground in three dimensions when you use the stereoscope.
And it magnifies at the same time.
And I looked on it, and sure enough, there was this feature with the same curvature on the 1954 photography.
I got pretty excited.
I imagine.
And then came the true test.
I got the 1946 photography out and I laid it on top of the 1954 photography so that I could flip the 46 pictures up and look at the 54 and I registered them and I could drop the 46 photography back down on it.
Sure.
And then look at the same spot on the ground in 1946.
There was a feature there in 1946 as well.
So it kind of took the alternative furrow It's still an anomalous feature.
The aerial photographs don't show it, even in 1954-46, connecting with the road.
So maybe water can run across hills.
maybe there was another ufo crash in nineteen forty six hot hot hot baby the government
in nineteen forty seven went and found the nineteen forty six
photography input that they stamp on the of the record nineteen nineteen forty six one
of the political I have to admit, I don't think so.
Now you're sounding like some of my other guests.
That's very interesting that you're out there on that limb.
Well, find me out there.
I have to admit, I got pretty excited when I found this thing on the 54th apartment.
I was a little bit disappointed when I found it on the 46th.
This is pretty intriguing stuff.
The whole thing is really intriguing, and I would imagine that as projects go in the life of an archaeologist, this probably had to be for you one of the more interesting, in some ways, in certain ways.
Oh, most definitely.
Very unusual, very challenging.
Were you intrigued enough with all of this?
You know, obviously you were to go back, because you did go back on your own.
But are you going to do any more follow-up on any of it?
Where's your head now?
I think that we haven't resolved all the questions about that particular location.
It certainly raises the question of, were we in the right place?
If you go and look at the literature, the little that I've done, there's a fair amount of controversy about exactly where the right place is.
In the 1994 Randall and Schmidt book, The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell, which is an update of their 1990 book, there's a photograph that says this is the debris field.
And I thought, well, if we're in the same place, I should be able to find that.
And in fact, I finally found, there's a little, they had marked things, or somebody marked things with a rock pile.
I found that rock pile, I recreated the photograph, and so that helped convince me that we were at least in the same place that they said it was in 1994.
Well, even if you were... Doctor, even if you were close, you may have recovered some debris.
Listen, our time is up.
You promised me two hours, you gave me a really good two hours.
You need to rest.
Thank you.
I am just boned out.
I want to really thank you for being here tonight, and it's been absolutely intriguing.
We learned a lot we didn't see on the show, and thank you very much.
All righty.
Well, good night and good morning to everybody.
Good morning, Dr. Dolman, Dr. Bill Dolman, William Dolman, from the University of New Mexico.
You heard a few things I'd say that you didn't see on the show last night.
There's more ahead, more about Roswell.
I'm Art Bell.
The Big Bang Theory.
Big, light, sand, smell, touch, there's something inside that we need so much.
The sight of a touch or the scent of a sand or the strength of an oak that leaps deep in the ground.
The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac into the sun again.
Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing.
To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing.
To have all these things in our memories home.
I need you mister, to help me.
ah Why take his soul?
Take his pain?
On this trip?
Just for him?
Why?
Take a free ride?
Take a trip?
Have a seat?
I'm a thief in my dreams But I've been running away for years
Worked so hard just to end my fears Had to end my life and all my rest
But by now I know I can't back out You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time
Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from November 22nd, 2002.
Wasn't Dr. Dillman interesting?
Very, very interesting.
The archaeologist on the sci-fi show tonight.
Now, again, the best part of the sci-fi show was the end in terms of something that was extremely, in my opinion, extremely profound.
It was that picture of General Rainey.
Right in the middle of all this.
Now, I got the following from Jordan in Tampa Bay, Florida.
Jordan says, you know, why would the guy in the picture, he's talking about General Ramey, why would the guy in the picture hold a top secret communique exposing, in quotes, the truth?
I don't think so.
Well, Jordan, I'm sorry, but there's no question about who that was.
We know it was General Ramey with the dispatch in his hand.
And it was Colonel Thomas DuBose, his Chief of Staff, immediately next to him, right in the middle of all this.
We know exactly who they are, Jordan.
And so, I think it's obvious.
I think we've been lied to.
And I think it's a big lie.
It's not a little lie.
It's a really, really big lie.
It's not a lie about Mogul.
It's a big, big, much bigger lie.
And I think this is the evidence.
They have deciphered what was You see, all those years ago, there would have been no way in a million trillion years they could have read what was on that.
Not from that photograph.
Although, magnified, there are a few words available.
They did this with computer analysis, and a very good computer analysis.
A research scientist named Dr. Rodiak did it.
That man, that general, General Ramey, was holding a dispatch that said, and I'm quoting here, Fort Worth Army Airfield acknowledges that a disk, in quotes, is the next new find west of the cordon and the victims of the wreck, keyword victims of the wreck, You forwarded to the team at Fort Worth, Texas, the aviators in the disc shipped by a B-29 Special Transport or C-47.
Come on, it was in his hand!
And the words, and the victims of the wreck.
And the words, in the disc they will ship.
Now, Listen to me, folks.
That's what the message in General Ramey's hand says.
So, to me, that's a big lie.
That's not a mogul lie.
That's a really big lie.
Coming up in a moment, we'll get another perspective.
Bill McDonald is going to come on the program, and he wrote me a very interesting email.
He wrote, To the program that Don Schmidt is doing with the Sci-Fi Channel in the interview with the archaeologist that you've got scheduled for tomorrow.
He wrote this yesterday.
I'd like to request the privilege of taking you on a guided tour of the interior crew cabin, the exterior hull, the interface between the flight crew and the spacecraft.
Her life support system was an oxygenated fluid and her outer skin was the engine, magneto Aerial, uh, aero-electro-dynamics.
I'll discuss the connection to Skunk Works.
CEOs Kelly Johnson and Ben Rich, CIC agent Frank Kaufman, John Edwards.
These words of the Tester Corporation and the Wright-Patterson documents officer and his air intelligence boss.
A possible murder might even be connected to the Wright-Patterson officer.
I was the last person To work with Len Springfield during the week of his death, December of 1994, I currently consult with Dr. Hal Puthoff, Dr. Eric Davis, and Dr. Bob Wood.
Witness Hal Lord, Jr.
observed that Kelly Johnson had drawings, drawings of the Roswell spacecraft on his drafting table in his Burbank office in 1954.
They were identical to the general composite that I rendered from all surviving witnesses in 1995, the ones The ones that we use for the tester model.
The tester model.
So in a moment, Bill McDonald.
Alright, a little bit about Bill.
Bill McDonald's educational background is in the fields of military aviation via the USMC, United States Marine Corps, forensic Anthropology as an artist, his work experience was as an undercover private investigator for over 12 years, working for private agencies, liaisoned with major metropolitan police departments, federal agencies, and the military.
Meanwhile, he was a precision technical, scientific, and commercial illustrator who fell into forensics as far back as high school.
McDonald received his BA degree from Cal State Fullerton in criminal justice.
He specializes in using correct investigative methods to conduct interviews with key specific witnesses in both criminal and paranormal cases, and the correct forensic procedures for rendering composite illustrations based on physical evidence and or cooperated testimonies that can be used for legal inquest, commercial media, or paranormal and UFO related case research.
He was an undercover private investigator with the Phalanx Agency and commercial illustrator for 12 years while currently serving in the Marines, then later with the California Army National Guard.
He spent two more years with the W.E.
Holland and Associates, the Emerald Group, as an undercover private investigator.
So he's a very interesting character and he promises to take us on sort of a virtual tour of the spacecraft that may have crashed at Roswell, or in view of the evidence presented toward the end of the program, the text message, would you have to say what, in fact, did crash at Roswell?
At any rate, here he is.
Welcome to the show.
Great to have you, Bill.
Thank you, Art.
It's wonderful to be here.
Where are you now, by the way?
I am in Mesa, Arizona.
Mesa, Arizona.
All right.
All right.
How in the world, Bill, can you promise to take us on sort of a virtual tour of what you believe that craft was?
How can you do that?
It's actually a process of compositing a witness testimony, and I have to give credit to where credit is due.
Kevin Randall and Don Schmidt, back when they were still partners before the big fallout, when they were writing the book together, Allowed me to interview their witnesses, to work the case from the inside out.
In other words, they, Stan Friedman, Carl Flock, Cliff Stone, and Ken Jeffries were all working the case from the point of view of the witnesses, their backgrounds, the veracity of their statements, you know, the whole thing.
Right.
But nobody had focused on the spacecraft and the bodies.
With the exceptional in Stringfield, nobody had done that.
More importantly, nobody had surveyed all the witnesses that were still alive and able to talk to see if their descriptions of the vehicles that they claimed to see and their descriptions of the bodies, whether they would match or whether they would be in conflict.
Now you told me earlier You only saw the first, oh I don't know, three quarters of the program because you had to do some work.
In fact, I'm yanking you out of your normal work assignment tonight to be here, right?
Oh yeah, I got yanked right off the job.
Alright, so you only saw about three quarters of it.
But you know, they did interview a long line of witnesses and people who said he was dying.
He was in the terminal stage when he finally told me I mean, there was some extremely, other than the physical evidence that was a big wower at the end, there was some extremely compelling testimony.
No question about that.
People who are at the end of their life.
They're at the end of their life.
You know, they're looking at death pretty soon.
Not that we're all that far from it, but you know, they're pretty near.
You know, the white hairs, I think one of them referred to himself as.
Even Stanton has said that we're in a race with the Undertaker on all of this.
And I thought some of those were incredible statements.
What about you?
Most of the material that I got was received either by me personally, or by Kevin or Don, or by other researchers that we have had association with, when they were sick, when they were dying.
Now there's been some people that said that Frank Coffman lied and that Frank Coffman made up this and that.
Don Schmidt got to spend a lot of time with him when he was in his last days and I could not because my wife was very sick.
She had multiple miscarriages and we had another pregnancy and it was really difficult.
So I could only call in by telephone every now and then.
But Frank Coffman had terrible cancer that was octopusing its way from his prostate through his liver.
Uh, pancreas, you know, just about every painful kind of cancer.
And in the end, he was refusing all medication.
He was hanging on to his pain.
It was the only thing he had to hang on to regarding life.
And not once did his story waver or change.
You know, that's a brave way to die anyway.
Well, he was a tough old guy.
Yeah.
Anyway, it's not a real likely moment for lies.
Never.
And Len Stringfield.
Sharing his information with me literally in the last four days of his life.
My last conversation with him was eight hours before he passed away from lung cancer.
He was also in pain.
His wife and son tried to take the phone away from him but he still talked to me.
And he shared all of his data on the anatomy of the flight crew.
And the little bit that he had on the spacecraft so I could use it as a baseline to test the honesty of the other witnesses.
Alright, well stop right there.
I mean, if anybody did that eight hours before his death and told you about the creatures inside, then I want to hear about that first.
Absolutely.
Lay it on me.
What flight crew were not the little grey aliens that the abductees talk about?
The flight crew looked like little first grade children that were utterly hairless except for Tiny amounts of peach fuzz in different locations.
Their skin was like the tiny, tiny beaded scales that you see in the armpit of a baby iguana.
These are all his words?
Yeah.
Identical to the albino geckos that you see out in Hawaii.
They were tiny beaded scales.
The skin itself was not Semi-permeable tissue like ours.
It was like a synthetic screen mesh when you looked at it microscopically.
Like a synthetic screen mesh?
Yeah, they could not hold fluids in nor germs out.
And that's critical to what I'm going to be telling you in the next few minutes.
Their eyes were not the big black eyes.
They were Asian-shaped eyes with a white sclera, a brown iris, and pupils Not unlike the eyes of Filipino or Mongolian children.
You're telling me you got all this detail in the last eight hours of this man's life?
I got it over the last four days.
Our last conversation ended in the last eight hours of his life.
That kind of detail?
That kind of detail.
And Kevin Randall got some of it, too, and put it in Chapter 10 of the book that's been mentioned several times tonight.
The truth about the UFO crash at Roswell.
Only you, only you can be a judge of the man's demeanor.
I mean, you were talking to him.
You were listening to his voice on the other end.
Len's witnesses were three army physicians whose identity he took to the grave.
I mean, Stan Friedman wanted to get their identity, as did a lot of people.
But Len's last words were about honor, it was about keeping promises, and it was about being remembered.
He was afraid that someday people would forget about him, and I swore to him, never.
We will never forget Len Stringfield and what he did.
Ever.
Why did he decide to speak?
Particularly in this kind of dramatic detail.
Why?
Len Stringfield was an army intelligence officer in a C-47 Skytrain over Iwo Jima, just after the battle in World War II, when three silvery, glowing Foo Fighters buzzed the plane.
He was obsessed with UFO research ever since.
And of course, you know, he was contemporary with Stanton Friedman.
In fact, you know, he was the master that everybody sat at their feet.
He was contemporary with John J. Allen Hynek, contemporary with Dr. Jacques Vallée, And the body of his work, which is in the possession of his family and his close associates, speaks for itself.
I mean, everybody knows who Lens Stringfield is.
He was just basically the god of all researchers.
But there are things that you can tell about a person's voice when they're talking to you, when they're telling you something.
Oh, it's the profound truth, the tone.
Because the Reaper's 15 minutes away.
They can practically see the face of God.
Most people, Art, no matter what their national security oath might have been, never lie at the time of death.
He knew he was dying.
There was no question.
Oh, absolutely.
The lung cancer had been killing him for a long time, and lung cancer, Art, is one of the most painful ways to go.
So I'm reminded frequently, yes.
In fact, all of these guys get cancer, and that is scary.
John Andrews died of cancer.
Ben Rich died of cancer.
Actually there is another story there that a lot of researchers I know have been afraid to explore publicly and I really don't want to explore it myself right now without... We lost Dr. Carla Turner who was a very close friend of mine to liver cancer.
I know.
She was supposed to dance at my wedding and we lost her.
I know there are many more, many more suffering cancers.
Dr. Greer, Dr. Greer's assistant, now passed on.
I mean, I could go on and on and on, and there may be a story there, but I don't want to try putting that one together until we've got statistical evidence that just bulges out and hits you in the eye.
It scares the bejeebers out of me.
I know, I understand.
So he gave you a long-form tour of... What do we know about these creatures?
I mean, the story is, That two of them were alive.
Well, I have no proof of that.
Actually, I believe that five of them were dead.
There were seven seats in the ship, but only five bodies recovered, which is why I don't lambaste Don Schmidt if he says that the Brazzles found two more bodies out on the range.
There were two bodies missing, and the ship was so tiny that, like I told Hal, put off today.
There's no way you can trim that craft unless all the seats were filled.
Yeah.
In other words, it would require a very precise balance.
Yeah, and its ballast was the fluid that was also its life support system because she was ultralight.
Four guys yanked her out of the cliff and dragged her down to the flatbed truck.
This was the final resting place of the crash itself.
In other words, the program suggested that it was actually largely Absolutely.
There wasn't much debris for the archaeologists to find, except for a debris plug from the upper left-hand dorsal portion of the vehicle, which occurred over the Corona Ranch, which is now owned by Stuart Vogel.
She hit the ground there.
I'll have to explain to you a little bit about field propulsion, because you can have a mass at infinity and a weight of zero.
So it was like having a bulldozer fall out of the sky and hit the ground, even though the ship herself was made out of ultra-lightweight ceramics, metals, and crystalline composites.
And then she skipped into Boggin to cross the hilltops, which is where you get some of those other scuffs that Don Schmidt and those guys were talking about, until she hit at the McKnight Ridgeway property, which we now know.
And my belief is that it did hit at Hubcorn's Ranch, And there's a mark in the cliff that I can pretty much identify as a spider web striation that is not consistent with the erosion, the natural erosion of the rest of the cliff.
Bill, hold it right there.
We're at the bottom of the hour.
Bill McDonald is my guest as the discussion about Roswell and what happened there continues with some pretty close to smoking gun evidence.
Lighting the way, I'm Art Bell.
You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from November 22nd, 2002.
The Coast to Coast AM concert was held at the San Francisco International Airport on November 22nd, 2002.
The concert was held at the San Francisco International Airport on November 22nd, 2002.
Premier Radio Networks Premier Radio Networks
Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
Tonight's program originally aired November 22nd, 2002.
If it was a little bit of balsa wood and aluminum foil, would the General's message have said, Fort Worth Army Airfield acknowledges that a disk is in, uh, is the next new find west of the cordon, and the victims of the wreck You forwarded to the team at Fort Worth, Texas, the aviators in the disc, shipped by a B-29 Serial Transport, or C-47, the words, and the victims of the wreck, in the disc, they will ship.
Does that sound like a weather balloon to you?
Once again, here's Bill McDonald.
Well, those words uttered over that period of time and those conversations regarding the creatures already, that's really fascinating stuff, Bill.
It's like I want to know everything he said.
Well, it's not just him.
It's Frank Coffman, too.
I understand.
My work is a composite of what all the witnesses agree to.
Three of the flight crew members, which would be like mission specialists if you use the NASA analogy, had opposable thumbs and normal five-fingered hands, even though the proportions were slightly different.
Two, which were like the pilots, had four fingers with no opposable thumbs, like as if one was operating the vessel by a combination touchpad on the console that wrapped around him, On the port side of the most forward seat in the crew cabin, and the starboard pilot had a joystick that fits snugly into his four-fingered hand.
You're getting this kind of incredible detail, not from one, but from several witnesses.
This is a total composite of a minimum of five witnesses.
Okay, the question I have is how much of it matches?
In other words, I understand it's a composite, but is it in any way an overlapping composite?
What amazes me is the lack of conflict in the witnesses' stories.
Really?
That's why when all these guys go off into all this monkey business about, well, this witness said that, and that can't be right, and this can't be right, and that can't be right, I found a way to cut through all the malarkey, and it was real simple.
Either they described the same ship, and the same bodies, or they didn't.
Either they met the burden of proof that was established by Len Stringfield's testimony from his three army physicians, or it didn't.
And it did.
And, you know, that's the bottom line.
It's like with the Wright-Patterson witness.
I'm still trying to figure out whether he's really the witness, or the guy that murdered the witness and took the story.
Either way, he has a boss who's 87 years old that also confirms the story.
Who's a retired general living up in Wyoming.
And he also describes the exact same thing.
So what am I supposed to do as a detective?
I mean, you have this body of information.
It's sifting together and dovetailing nicely.
And these people can't all be connected to each other.
And they sure as heck can't be connected to the Skunk Works people.
And yet the descriptions of the spacecraft are the same.
and for the fewer people that saw the bodies the descriptions
are similar enough that they fall within the pattern of believability
that we as detectives accept in the end. And you believe, based on what you know, that
they were all dead.
It is my opinion that they were all dead, however, you know, I wasn't there. There's going to be a lot of
people who are going to feel disagree with that.
But, um, I
believe they were all dead and that's based on the physiology and it's based on
the life support system of the craft.
They could not live in our air.
What do we know about their requirements?
The requirements, if you go back to the skin, it was unable to hold fluids and it was unable to keep germs out.
They needed to be maintained in a sterile amniotic fluid type oxygenated broth.
That broth could not be loaded with water or other heavy fluids because there would have been evidence of it found inside the cabin.
It was bone dry.
There are fluids that evaporate very fast.
They're called fluorocarbons and I can think of one that I used all the time on F-18s in the Marine Corps called trifluoroethane.
You could load up a bucket with that stuff and in a few hours it's evaporated away.
And why do we think we know so much about the atmosphere required?
How do we know this?
Again, you look at their skin and you look at the engineering of the vehicle.
That vehicle was without ballast when it was found.
The skin of these beings could not hold their body fluids inside them.
If they had walked around outside, they would have been leaking all out through their little flight suits and everything.
Wow.
I'm talking, you know, rapid and immediate dehydration.
And the decomposing bacteria... It would be like going to a planet and exploding, sort of.
Well, what I believe is that they were synthetically bred to interface with the spacecraft, and that they come from a hive society that bred them specifically for that environment.
The ship was designed for reconnaissance.
So you think that these beings, we'll call them, were designed for this specific purpose by other intelligences?
That is my opinion based on studying this for years.
So they were... they were biological drones?
Yeah, but they were not subservient to the artificial cortex of the ship.
They were multiple brain nodes that added to the processing capability of the ship and the crew as a unified organism.
These are concepts that I don't think they could have even considered or imagined in 1947.
That's part of the reason why I believe what these guys were saying, because they're not making up sci-fi stuff.
They were describing It's like General Raimi holding that piece of paper in his hand while posing for the photos.
He couldn't even conceive of our ability to image process film in the 21st century.
He probably figured that film emulsion, as it was then, was state-of-the-art.
And that nobody would ever be able to make out what's on that piece of paper.
He probably didn't even think about it.
I'm sure that's what he thought.
And I'm also sure that when these photographs were published, for example, in newspapers, where you have dot matrix printing.
Exactly.
They would have taken a look at the photograph.
They would have thought about it even for one second.
Because even the figures would have been somewhat blurry.
Forget There's no way to reconstruct from halftones.
That's right.
That's right.
That's exactly right.
You would have to have the unadulterated original, which I guess they got.
Well, we interviewed J. Bond Johnson, my wife and I, in Mission Viejo, California, back around 2000, when he had the latest photo prints that he'd gotten from his original negatives that were in the custody of Texas A&M University.
And I looked at those photos very carefully, and you know, with what I had on hand, I really wasn't able to resolve that.
But Don Schmidt gave a presentation at the Magic Castle in Hollywood later that year, and he was already involved with trying to resolve those images.
And then tonight I saw that other guy, who I assume worked with Don Schmidt on that.
Yes, Dr. Rodiak.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, this is incredible stuff.
He has the money, he has the software and the equipment to resolve it.
Stuff that General Rainey couldn't even conceive of.
Well, if these words are real, or even if only a portion of them are real, then the whole damn thing's a lie.
That's correct.
And none of those words conflict with any of the information I have.
None.
Therefore, I'm completely Satisfied, like you, that this could be the big lie.
This could be the smoking gun that you have, you know, been so poignant about.
All right.
Tell me what else you think you know, or you know that you know, either with regard to the beings or the ship.
Oh, this is going to blow your mind.
Imagine a wave rider You know, high-speed atmospheric skiff that is a wave rider, and she has a body style reminiscent of certain species of cetaceans.
What do you mean by a wave rider?
A wave rider is a high-altitude, high-speed flying wing that's designed to slam through the atmosphere at high speed, riding its own shock wave to conserve fuel.
Gotcha.
That I understand.
We call those wave riders, and Skunk Works, and Phantom Works, and some of the European consortiums are real heavy into that.
For instance, look at Venture Star and the next generation of Lockheed Martin shuttles.
These are wave rider concepts.
Look at the TR-7 that Ben Rich leaked to John Andrews, and it came out as an actual model kit back in the early 90s.
In fact, folks, if you will go to my website, uh... and look under tonight's guest info and look under bill's name uh... uh... william lewis mcdonald seniors name uh... you will see the roswell ship herself in detail click on that and look at uh... some of the the drawings that are available i guess you can buy these uh... is this is this shape this
Is this the wave rider shape?
Frankly, I think it's the holy grail of all terrestrial designed wave riders.
Well, you know, that holy grail, you know, I saw, and I'm sorry folks, I can't remember, it might be the Aurora, it might be something else.
I recently saw that we are, it is said, to be testing right now, probably near me here in the desert, which looks just almost exactly like this.
Exactly my point.
Exactly.
But Aurora is three planes and they all have various characteristics of the Roswell craft.
As did the old A-12 design once they put in the Chinese that made it the SR-71.
As did some of the other planes that are only now being released, some of the stealth slash high-altitude spy plane concepts.
So an extreme high transit of the upper atmosphere, you are forced really to a certain kind of specific design, aren't you?
You have to be the cross between a surfboard and a dart in order to transition the upper atmosphere efficiently.
That's why I call it an aero-surf concept.
And one thing we all know for sure is, as you look at this, we sure didn't have any of these in 1947.
Exactly.
Exactly my point.
That doesn't mean someone else or something else didn't have it and then it would have been designed to work within the atmosphere which means that this craft and its occupants were within our atmosphere for a specific reason.
Not only that, but it was a trans-atmospheric vehicle.
It was able to go from a vacuum to an atmosphere to a hydrosphere Back to an atmosphere and then back into space.
In other words, the Roswell ship could dive into the ocean and fly out again, just like the flying submarine from Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea.
Huh.
And its propulsion was magneto-aero-electro-dynamics, which if you remember Stan Friedman on your show not too long ago... I certainly do.
Talking about magneto-aero-dynamics is what he called it.
Magneto hydrodynamics, which is already being tested underwater with all kinds of secret submarines.
They've been doing it for over 20 years.
And then, as Hal put off, and I and Dr. Eric Davis and I have discussed over and over and again, that it probably, once outside of the gravity well of a planet, would switch to something more in line with zero-point energy.
And she also had those power cells on the belly.
If you notice in my drawings, that she has these power cells on the belly.
Yes.
And those power cells would allow her to access and amplify the magnetic field of the Earth, allowing for controlled manipulation of electromagnetic fields, allowing her to levitate at low or slow speeds, or no speeds, if she wanted to go into a hover mode.
Do we imagine what her mission was with regard to Earth?
Yeah, based on the design.
Reconnaissance.
There was no room for cargo, only life support.
Reconnaissance.
Well, now let's think for a second.
What would be worth a reconnaissance effort by an alien race in 1947?
Boom!
Think about that.
Let me think about that.
Think of a big boom.
509th Bomb Group.
Let's see.
What were they doing?
Gee, they were the people who dropped the first atomic bomb.
Now, would an alien race be interested in who dropped the first atomic bomb?
No, they just might.
I'm thinking interstellar smokestackles.
They just might be really interested in that.
It would be like if we were the French and Americans and some of these little Arab oases during World War I And one of these tribes suddenly had a weapon of mass destruction.
Would we be concerned?
Well, I don't know.
I mean, look at Saddam right now, and use the same term, weapons of mass destruction.
Are we concerned?
Hmm.
We're getting ready to send our young men and women over to die, because we're so concerned.
Hell yeah, we're concerned!
And so, if you imagine an alien race, this would be like a great big marker in human Evolution and whatever, if you want to call this forward evolution, at the moment of the bomb, oh my, that would be of high interest.
High interest.
Absolutely.
And they were doing a lot of testing and a lot of preparation for testing.
I mean, they could have come down in Russia, China, they could have come down in the Middle East.
Then we'd have, I'm sure, had stories from the Middle East that would have religious stuff attached to them about all of this, but no.
Of all the places on the entire Earth they came down, they came down real near the 509th bomb group.
And not just there.
They were tracked on radar for four days prior.
Alamogordo, Los Alamos, Kirkland, Roswell.
There was multiple bogeys that were flitting around the radar scopes like fireflies for, you know, 72 hours prior to the Roswell ship.
And what kind of evidence do we have of that?
The testimony of the United States Army Counterintelligence Corps personnel, specifically Frank Kaufman, who was ordered to ride a radar set for 24 of those hours, hopefully to triangulate the location of one of them.
They were hoping for a capture.
You don't suppose, Bill, do you, that there's any chance that we shot one of these damn things down?
It's possible, but as my father, who's a top government scientist, retired, and several other people have said, the projectile weapons and the missiles that we had in those days, they would have seen the shell coming from a long distance away, and the Roswell ship was agile enough that she could have just flitted to the side and been missed.
Just sidestepped, slightly.
Incoming round.
Yeah, but you know, there's a Golden Bebe thing.
I mean, in Vietnam, on occasion, you know, some little farmer in the middle of a rice field somewhere, with a single rifle, would point it at an F-14, and by God, every now and then, he'd put a round in just the right place, and one of those Tomcats would come screaming at it.
Sure, they brought down an F-8 Crusader that way.
That's right.
It's possible, but, you know, the witnesses, the lightning storm, I think it was an upstroke of lightning myself.
Because I think that, you know, God and nature can humble anybody.
You've made an electromagnetic disturbance, a very large one, by lightning, huh?
Well, you have to remember, this ship was built in layers that was like living tissues.
And for that upper left-hand dorsal side to shatter into that gas shape in the layers that it did, it had to be an immense Power overload that literally would have shattered the molecules of these incredible layers of metals and metal and composites.
So, the only thing I'm thinking of is lightning.
I don't think there was a weapon on Earth that could do that kind of damage to it.
Except the one from Mother Nature.
You know, Ultima God and Mother Nature are the last word in everything as far as I'm concerned.
So, the ship was sort of a...
Almost like a living thing.
Absolutely.
You heard about those little wafers with those little flower designs and stuff?
Oh yes.
Think microprocessors designed three-dimensionally to mimic the function, structure, and form of neuroganglia tissue.
That's at least as sophisticated as what you would find in fish, like a stingray.
Possibly even as sophisticated as a primate.
Bill, hold it right there.
We're at the top of the hour and we'll be right back from the high desert.
It's all about Roswell tonight for good reason.
I'm Art Bell.
As the saying goes, don't touch that dial.
You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time.
tonight featuring a replay of coast to coast am from november twenty second
of the month the
the the
the the
You're a cartoon dog!
Rock and roll!
Destination unknown.
Double-cross messenger all alone.
Can't get no connection.
We can't get through, where are you?
Well, the night is quick, baby, I'm just getting paid in mind
There's a call from the borderline When the headman comes, he knows damn well he hasn't
Let's fall from the borderline For the headman's good
He knows damn well he hasn't cheated And he's in
cheated on his guilty mind
Hell, I'm stepping into the twilight zone This isn't a madhouse
This is my free zone My feet are still moving in the moon and stars
And I know, and I know, you won't You will not go
And I'm gonna have you falling You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier
Radio Networks.
Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM, from November 22nd, 2002.
Unfortunately, in ufology, a lot of times the only way you know for sure you've gone too far is when the bullet hits the bone.
Maybe not the lead bullet, but you know, like the cancer bullets.
Or some kind of bullet hits the bone.
That's how you know.
We've been talking about people who are close to death and dying, and what they've said, and what we know tonight.
We're talking about Roswell.
Bill McDonald is here, and he'll be right back.
Once again, Bill McDonald.
As I said, Bill, we've been talking about people close to death and or dying.
Before he died, I was blessed to have given Colonel Uh, Corso, Colonel Philip Corso, I did several really, really incredibly intense interviews with Colonel Corso.
And, as you know, Colonel Corso was in receipt of a lot of materials that were later then transferred, he said, in fact by himself, to private industry that made a lot of the things that we regard as very common Today, um, pieces of technology that ended up becoming products that we use every day now.
And I, you know, in talking to the Colonel for hours, I absolutely, positively came away with the feeling this man was telling the dead straight truth.
And that's just the way he came across.
And that's been my only experience with judging a man and his voice and knowing where he was in his life.
He knew he was at the end of his life.
Yeah, he knew pretty much he was at the end of his life.
Joe Colso was one of my sources, Art.
He approved everything I did.
He went into a lot of details regarding his nut file, and he went into a lot of details regarding the shape of the craft and the description of the bodies.
And the only conflict was his bodies had little headbands.
And none of the other witnesses described those at all.
That's not much of a conflict, all things.
That's not much of a conflict.
It's a significant thing, and I've got to be honest, and I've got to point it out, but Colonel Corso confirmed the overall configuration of the spacecraft and the type of equipment that was pulled out of the layers of the hull, and he described in his books very carefully what their functions were.
And he approved of, I believe that when he was on the show with you, he even mentioned some of the work that I've done.
And it was an honor to be able to interview him both in Roswell and over the phone.
I felt the same way.
And then his son kind of took charge of things and I lost contact with him.
Yeah, so did everybody else.
But while we had Colonel Corso, there was no mistaking The earnest nature of what he said.
It was straightforward what he said.
I mean, I had to have him replay one of those interviews so everybody could hear it.
You know, it's been years now, but there's no question.
That was the truth coming from this man.
He absolutely, totally believed it all the way.
I guarantee.
After that many hours, I guarantee.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
All right.
I understand that you believe that That aliens are here, that there are alien species, multiple alien species here, and that they are, in effect, ranching?
Harvesting?
Yes, sir.
Culling?
Those are my exact words.
Culling?
Yes, your exact words.
What they need from targeted human populations around the world.
Let's talk about that a little bit.
That's the Oasis Earth Hypothesis.
Yeah, what are they doing and why?
If you look at the local space, it's mostly an empty, voided desert, except for that zero-point energy that Hal's looking for.
And it's got a lot of red dwarfs in it, some white dwarfs, some brown stars, and a few yellow suns that probably have Earth-like worlds surrounding them.
And if you remember that space map that Betty Hill drew, and that Dan Friedman investigated with his team, That tends to lend credence, especially since she drew the map and then years later they discovered the star combination.
That's right.
And so Earth-like worlds where you have liquid water and vast mineral deposits and compatible DNA are few and far between, which makes the Earth and other planets like it a highly strategically valuable oasis.
After culling all this information for 11 years through the UFO community, I mean I've been at it since 1992 and 1991, I've come to the conclusion that we're being ranched.
And the analogy is exactly like what the old cattle barons of North American Australia were like back in the 1800s.
And occasionally you have multiple, you have factions that have multiple species within and factions that are homogenous and species specific.
And they target specific populations, especially in countries where the genetic pool is very mixed.
And that they harvest DNA along with boron, beryllium, manganese, and other exotic minerals that they need to replicate their vehicles, which are artificially intelligent, and are at an equal capacity on par with the users, which are the organic Entities involved, the occupants.
What are they harvesting from us?
Raw DNA.
Remember the old analogy from Jurassic Park where they took frog DNA to fill in the gaps?
Of course.
Well that's what they're doing with themselves because a lot of these species have probably been selected by nature for extinction and they're keeping themselves going longer while they build, you know, I believe they're building hybrid races to inherit their agendas And they're vast technologies and all the neat little hand-me-downs.
So they're really doing God's work, aren't they?
They're doing their work as a hive society or hive culture could be expected to do.
Multiple.
And how long do you think that's been going on?
Well, if you look at the fossil record and art, I maintain a timeline of human history going back 33 million years.
It's a Microsoft Word document.
It's huge.
In fact, my wife is nuts over the time I spend on this thing.
But if you look at about 140,000 years ago, you see the quantum leaps that Homo sapiens sapiens made.
And you can actually follow Homo sapiens sapiens in its trek from Africa to Asia along the sea coast, and then, you know, the colonization of Asia, and then the pushing back through Eurasia, and finally into Europe, where the sister species all are, which are basically 100% human.
But we are different enough from our robust compaginated species, meaning Homo erectus and all of its various subspecies, and there were a lot of them, Homo neanderthalensis, of course, and Homo rudolfensis and some of the others, that around 140,000 years ago, and perhaps again 60,000 years ago, there were subtle adjustments made in the DNA that probably made it absolutely compatible for being donor DNA.
You've had a lot of guests on here who have talked about the same kind of thing, but I'm telling you that my quiet, careful research and going through all of the vast amount of anthropological literature and paleoanthropological material that is out there, even through National Geographic and all the textbooks and everything like that, when you start laying out a timeline By the years and and then you know once we get into recorded history by the months, years, dates, etc.
like that in chronological order you can actually see the locations where this could have occurred.
If this kind of harvesting or farming if you want to use that term, kind of obnoxious when you apply it to ourselves, but if this kind of farming is going on then there's got to be some kind of connection to the endless mystery For example, animal mutilations, cow mutilations specifically, and they just never ever come up with anything to answer these completely bizarre things dropped out of mid-air, gutted in ways that, I mean, it's just got to be somehow connected.
For the most part, I think that's us.
I've had access to certain studies, and I'm not really allowed to say who they are, but in a nutshell, Red China's been doing a lot of research into creating multi-generational viruses that die off after a certain period of time that would go after our livestock and our grain and our harvestable resources.
You know, I can go along with that, but why... We are doing it back.
They don't need our cows.
No, no, you don't understand.
We don't even need our cows.
If you want to wipe out our armies, just eliminate the food and our populations will be down in a month.
If you go after our grain, our corn, our cattle, and our pigs, and our chickens, the grocery stores are going to be awful bare, awful quick.
That's for sure.
And I believe that there is vast amounts of money being illegally spent on ways to do biological warfare against agriculture.
On both sides.
Red China and us.
They are themselves a bit of a hive society and they are the most dangerous people on earth.
They are in a way.
But you know what?
It doesn't have to be carried out on farmers, cows, in the middle of the field, in the middle of nowhere.
Cattle and sheep and pigs are biologically very similar to humans and you can prognosticate 99% of everything related to diseases And the courses of diseases, their trajectory of diseases, the morphologies of diseases.
If it goes a certain way on a cow or a sheep, especially a sheep or a pig, pigs are really the closest other than chimpanzees and bonobos.
And there's just not enough of them to go around.
Well, gee, Bill, of whom should I show more fear?
Alien creatures who are farming us or our own governments that are trying to figure out new and enhanced ways to kill us all.
I think that our own people are far more twisted than any of these species that are wrenching us.
That could be.
Because I think that there's far more casualties from them than there is from, you know, the alien presence here on Earth.
I find that You know, with the Oasis Earth Hypothesis, all of these multiple species factions have demonstrated one thing, and it's something that every smart cattle rancher knows.
And that would be?
You don't stampede your cows and your sheep because the higher the amount of stress that you put on the animals, the less amount of meat and producible goods you get from them, and your veterinary bills are just outrageous.
So they don't want to stampede us?
They don't want to panic us.
They don't want to stress us.
They don't want to drive us into sociological or, you know, any kind of cultural meltdown.
And we're less healthy.
Our DNA is less harvestable.
There's more diseases.
And it's a whole lot more work for them.
So they're not going to land on the White House lawn, and they are not going to kidnap the President.
Yeah, but I'm still beginning to feel like a fattening turkey.
You know, any cow rancher will tell you, you don't chase your cows with helicopters or jeeps.
You go in with horses.
Yeah.
And that's what, you know, the scenario is.
Well, even all that said, I'm beginning to feel like a fattening turkey with a sense to realize what's happening, if all that's true.
I can't argue with you on that.
You're absolutely right in my opinion.
That's my opinion.
Well, where is this going?
Is it gone as far as it's going to go?
It depends on when the extinction point for each faction is.
Remember, it's not a unified council out there.
You've got different factions that are like tribes of Bedouins.
They're just way more advanced than us.
And they're out there looking after their own interests and their own survival.
They've got their own motherships.
They've got their own raw resources for minerals.
But they need us for liquid water and DNA in this sector of space.
Well, interestingly though, we are beginning to poison ourselves.
We are beginning to change the weather.
We're beginning to change our reproductive capabilities.
California right now is experiencing a rash of autism that just will blow your mind if you look into it.
I mean, we're beginning to hurt Our own DNA, in my opinion.
If we destroy ourselves, we take them with us, and I think they know that.
So then, do you think they would intervene, perhaps as they were trying to find out what was going on near the 509th?
Subtly, they would intervene, even today, with some of the different types of UFO objections that people are having.
But then we got our own guys abducting people that have already been abducted just in order to figure out what the hell these other guys are doing.
Well, you know, there were some pretty interesting stories of UFOs.
I mean, these are not just stories.
These are confirmed matters that hovered over missile silos in the United States and began shutting them down.
That's a fact.
That happened.
And they were doing it in Russia, too.
You're damn right they did.
Kapustin Yard, 1986.
You know about it.
You better believe it.
I've got it all in my timeline.
It's all there.
Can you tell the audience what happened in Russia as much as you know of it?
It's the same thing that happened at Mamstrom Air Force Base, and what happened at Loring Air Force Base, and there was another Air Force Base also that this happened to in the United States in the 1960s and in the 1970s.
Kapustin Yar, it happened in both 1986 and in 1989.
Which, incidentally, is at the exact same time that we had these vast UFO sightings over Belgium.
And Belgium is another subject for another night.
But what did happen in Russia, exactly?
These UFOs come in, either one or more than one, and they hover, and we call them fast walkers and slow walkers, depending on whether they're moving fast at high altitude or slow walkers, which means they're hovering near the ground.
And these slow walkers come in and they hover near These missiles.
And all of a sudden, the programming on the missiles, the code, the base codes, start to change and adjust through some kind of transmitted message.
They go haywire.
And sometimes the launch codes will trip, and the missile will start to fire itself up.
So then they've got to pull the plugs manually.
That actually happened, didn't it, in Russia?
In other words... In Russia, and also in the United States.
They actually went into launch sequence in Russia, is what I was told.
And they had to go in there and literally pull the cables from them to get them to shut down.
Well, if you wanted to send a message to somebody with weapons of this magnitude, and you wanted to send the message in the two places where all the missiles were, that would be Russia and that would be here.
Yes, sir.
Absolutely.
That would be one hell of a strong way to send a message.
And the message would be unmistakable, wouldn't it?
And that would be We can control exactly what occurs to those weapons of mass destruction.
But that's not the only way to send a message.
We can start them, we can stop them, we can control them.
Look at John Mack's caseload and how a lot of his abductees, as well as Dave Jacobson, Bud Hopkins, and they all have an ecological message, even though a lot of these people don't even know each other.
They all are shown visions of a decimated earth, scorched earth, dead soil, dead cities, dead animals.
They get shown all this stuff.
I mean, they're operating on a lot of different levels.
And you think those imparted visions are warnings not to screw with the crop?
Not to screw with ourselves.
Yeah, we're the crop.
Exactly, because if we go, they go.
I'm convinced of that.
You know, that all does make sense.
Actually, it does.
I mean, there's a certain line of reasoning there when you put all this together that does kind of make sense.
Absolutely.
And these little ships that come in are with the sophistication of a living organism, where the minerals and the layers of metal and ceramics and crystalline composites Literally are mimicking the function structures and forms of living tissue down at the molecular level, allowing for direct interface between the flight crews and the artificial intelligence cortex of each vehicle.
Gotcha.
All right.
Listen, hold on right there, Bill.
We're at a break point here at the bottom of the hour.
Bill McDonald is my guest.
We're still talking Roswell.
Good morning.
I'm Art Bell.
You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from November 22nd, 2002.
Time, time, time, see what's become of me. While I looked around, all my possibilities, I was so hard to see.
In the ground, in the ground, deep inside.
Where all the past we gave, they seem to hide.
They seem so hard to find.
I tried to reach for you, but you have closed your mind.
Whatever happened to our love?
I wish I understood.
It used to save some lives.
Did you say you were gonna leave?
Oh, when you near me, darling, can't you hear me? It's so weird The love you gave me, nothing else can save me, it's so
weird When you're gone, how can I even try to go on?
When you're gone, though I try, how can I carry on?
And when you're gone, though I try, how can I carry on?
You seem so far away, though you are standing near You make me feel alive, but sometimes I feel sad
I really tried to make it out I wish I understood
What happened to our love that used to be?
You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time.
Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from November 22nd, 2002.
Good morning, everybody.
Bill McDonald is here, and I imagine this is a program that's going to reside in your memory banks for a very long time.
I'm Art Bell.
We're going to actually take calls for Bill coming up in the next half hour, so if you have questions, we've got
lines.
Lies. Lies. Lies.
Lies.
My wife said it before I began the program tonight.
I thought it was totally appropriate.
She said, you know, after watching the Roswell Show, she said, you know, technology's caught up with the Air Force.
And I thought that was pretty observant of her.
Technology seems to have caught up to the Air Force.
Would that be your view, Bill?
It's starting to get that way.
Usually they're about 30 years ahead of us as far as what they have available in the way of processing power and microelectronics.
But we're starting to get on par.
Also, with all these different vehicles, whether it be the Wave Rider Stingray shape, or whether it be a classic disc, you're looking at the ultimate evolution of custom technology.
To the point where the operating system and the technology regarding the mechanics of it are at the ultimate evolution possible.
Well, I mean, it does seem, just to the casual observer, that's all I am looking at your drawings of these craft.
And then looking at, you know, when you get these little sneak previews of the new stuff that we've got up there, and we know we've gotten It's exactly the same.
I swear to God, it's exactly the same as what you got drawn.
And so, I mean, coincidental?
Not a chance.
George Norrie knows better than that.
Yeah, George Norrie is running a very interesting... Well, anyway, listen, I want to go to the phone lines and let some people ask you some questions.
Would that be all right?
Yes, sir.
We don't have a whole lot of time, so I've got to get to it.
Wildcard line, you're on the air with Bill McDonald.
Hello.
Yes, sir, Bill.
Yes.
You spoke earlier of the reptilian nature of the skin of the underarms.
Yes.
Of the beings.
Does this, in your view, collaborate with views of R. A. Boulay or Dr. Arthur David Horne about the Anunnaki?
What I'm saying is that this particular artificially created or artificially bred species He has a granulated, scaled texture to the skin that is very much resembles what the skin of a baby iguana looks like if you look at its armpit or the color and the skin texture of those geckos from Hawaii that are albino.
That's all I'm saying.
That particular species.
There's also reptilian species.
I don't think we know enough about the Anunnaki that long ago to make such presumption, do we?
Yeah, until we examine a body, all we can do is speculate.
Speaking of bodies, Bill, where do you think they are?
Well, with the exception of one or two from each species, which have to be maintained whole for its preservative value.
The others would have been sliced and diced into tissue samples the size of potato chips and spread out to biohazard research facilities throughout the entire world with labels that are simply alphanumeric or barcoding.
You know what?
That stands to reason.
Those bodies that are intact and have been preserved, where do you imagine they might be?
My witness sources have said several locations, one of them being Fort Huachuca on the Arizona border, which is where the NSA keeps a lot of its communications gear.
People have claimed Time Gap Australia.
I frankly believe that one of the bodies is on the East Coast, probably underneath Fort Meade, Maryland.
I think there's probably another at Fort Huachuca, and probably even a third or a fourth of each species, perhaps in the area of Papoose Dry Lake, though most of the vehicles are gone from there.
They're now in Rocky Mountain Bases up in the Canadian wilds.
That would be still rather close to me, and there's an awful lot of security, and land has been annexed here and all the rest of it.
Sure, because now they've got all kinds of other neat projects that they've got going on.
My father used to work out there.
With some of his projects from Strategic Systems Division, which was the old North American Rockwell Automatics.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with William McDonald.
Hello.
This is Maggie from Ohio.
Hello Maggie.
A very pleasure to talk to you and Bill.
A wonderful show and I'll miss you Art.
This is about Bob's Tax Program.
Now I've lost it.
Well you know, unsolved mysteries.
That he did on Roswell and a few nights after he did that he went to a party and Gordon McRae's wife Sheila came up to him and said that they were stationed out there in 47 and that Gordon came home one night all excited and she said I had dinner ready and I wanted him to sit down and eat and he was so excited he just couldn't do it and that's not verbatim but he said he saw little bodies that they brought in into the hangar I guess or somewhere And verified more or less for me that I know it's true and also about the missile silos.
I was playing golf one day and met a chap that was home on leave from a missile silo.
He worked in missile silos and I had to ask him if he'd ever seen any UFOs.
He said one night he said our missiles went crazy and he said we had to go out and go down in them and he said A UFO was hovering overhead.
Dear lady, I interviewed people who, officers who were involved in that entire incident.
I can assure you, I can assure you that occurred, as was suggested a few moments ago, here, and I was particularly interested in Russia because I didn't know specifically what had occurred in Russia, though I certainly know what occurred in this country, and you can take that one to the bank.
It did occur.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with William McDonald.
Hi, I'm really enjoying the show.
I'm Carla from Montana.
I want to know if William has read David Jacobs' book, The Threat, because I have a theory based on that research.
Yes, I have absolute respect for Dr. David Jacobs.
I own his books and I'm very proud to do so.
Well, that's great.
One of the things that I think he has missed And I wrote him about it and he seems to be in denial about considering the idea.
And the idea is?
The idea is that when you ask yourself, why are they forming hybrids?
Why are they determined to insert hybrids into our culture?
I believe it's to replace them because they're going extinct.
I understand that but you just don't replace If you can build your own children, why not?
I'm well here you try to my real KT and see what you can you know go ahead around give it
Please that is that they are creating bodies that they themselves can reincarnate in
Okay, the virtual approach all right all right. Yeah, okay.
I you know listen I can buy into that possibility not as easily as I can buy into the
question of deteriorated DNA and and us being used in a kind of a farming way.
I, too, am a subscriber to Dr. Jacobs' theories on all of this.
While everybody else is walking around talking about the warm, fuzzy little creatures that we all saw, most encounters, Dr. Jacobs, I think, is much more realistic About what the probable reason for all this is, and I think you are too, Bill.
Well, one of the species I've postulated, Art, is actually human fetuses that have been taken, where the gestation has stopped and an artificial maturity process takes over, and they then become an alternate source for the technician class, which is, you know, those little short gray aliens.
Yes.
These are what I call neonate aliens, which I got from a friend of Whitley Streber's that wrote a report on his communion.
Oh, yes.
And I subscribed to that.
One more thing to run by you.
I also interviewed another man.
He's rather controversial, but I'll tell you what, his story has never wavered.
He's just over the hill.
He's kind of a friend.
His name is Bob Lazar, and he described a power plant as well as as several craft uh... that were at area fifty
one at some point my research supports bob lazar i have no arguments or
problems with anything that he said
historians always remain excruciatingly uh... the same uh... you know a lot of
guests you give them the opportunity in
they will come back and have another appearance in the land large that their
story in some way or new details will emerge that have not previously
But with Bob, I've interviewed him a number of times.
It never changes.
It's never embellished.
It's always the same and it's very precise.
Agreed.
Absolutely.
He's a good person.
I just wish I had the pleasure to meet him.
But you've heard him describe what he did work on, right?
Oh, yeah.
I have all of his videotapes.
Does it sound consistent?
Yes, absolutely.
And it's consistent with my other military witnesses that I have dealt with over the years.
Absolutely.
But here's something that I want to throw out there before we run out of time.
The Roswell aliens.
were able to plug directly into the ship through the crowns of their heads the way it sank into the materials of those crash couches especially the one in the very rear of the ship and uh... you know now as as as lunatic bill as that might sound uh... the fact of the matter is direct interface direct interface is now only perhaps a step away if even a step away in other words Our own military is experimenting with a direct connection to controlling a craft, virtually, with thought.
They're much further down that road than you might all imagine right now.
Wouldn't you agree?
I'm totally in agreement.
I've been following that technology for a long time, as I've also been following the technology that allows you to drown a Navy SEAL over and over again in an oxygenated fluorocarbon, and then bring him out of it.
Yeah, I've heard some of that same stuff.
A lot of the stuff that is in the Roswell ship, including the direct interface between the heads of the flight crew and the artificial cortex of the vehicle, and that oxygenated broth fluid that was part of the inertial dampening system that was the ship's ballast and was totally their life support system, And by the way, the filtration system in the floor of the vessel has been described in detail.
Like a fish tank.
But all of this is critical to my research and it's critical that I get this out there tonight.
The flooring of the vessel was described by the Wright-Patterson witness who claimed that he crawled through it and he compared it to the tiny tubules that you see inside of a kidney dialysis bag When you cut it open, which is very similar to some of the more advanced filtration systems in saltwater aquariums today, and that there was gill-like slits along the floor where the fluid would be sucked down through the floor and then it would flow back into the cabin through these gill-like slits, you know, and on the bottom of the floor of the crew cabin.
And what do gills do?
Gills oxygenate clean and also pass off on you know the
the carbon dioxide and in some cases if these people are like frogs and they're receiving
nutrients as well as oxygen through the skin
then they're also possibly even urinating through the skin in other words
passing off of not only carbon dioxide but uric acid, uric acid salts
possibly even ammonia which are then cleaned through the floor decking. Sounds like a pool with a
thousand kids Yeah, a little bit.
A little bit.
Well, first time caller on the line, you're on the air with William McDonald.
Hello, my name is Keith.
I'm calling from Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
Yes, sir.
Hello, Art.
Hi.
Hello, William McDonald.
Hi, how are you?
I'm fantastic.
I'm wondering if you're aware of the Disclosure Project?
Yes.
Do you think their cause is for a good cause, like what they're doing, or like Is there cause for, like, is all in vain?
Yes, all of this, this is a wonderful question.
All through this sci-fi, I wonder how many other people noticed, through this sci-fi program, they dropped in after each commercial, and going back into the program, they would drop in this printed thing that would say something like 70, 7 out of 10 Americans say their religious convictions would not be disturbed were they to find out suddenly that there are ETs and on and on and on every single break they did that as if to say we're ready we're ready we're ready here's what the Roper survey says we're ready and so are we really do you think Bill ready and is disclosure then going down the right path or would it be a disaster?
Well, Art, it depends on which population and which community... Or should I say a stampede?
It depends on which community receives the information.
There's a lot of Islamic communities that I believe would be driven to further insurrection and further violence.
Well, oh gee, that's not too big a reach.
That might be perfectly acceptable in Southern California.
That's not too big a reach considering 50 people were just burned to death and killed because somebody suggested that somebody's god might not mind uh... uh... miss world contest or whatever they are talking about nigeria killed over a half fifty uh... you know that's right they did and that and that's just over why my god might think this is all right over a few hundred editorial they're still dying over that so that's not such a big reaches it it's a huge riot that the uh... patents but take it away in the still writing you know i know uh... what depends on the community but also look at peter burston's cause
And Dr. Greer's work, and the Disclosure Project, and the work that Ken Jeffries tried to accomplish in the early 90s.
They all, after a while, get sidetracked because they just can't get over that invisible hump.
It just kind of stops things cold after a while.
Look here, we're almost out of time.
I want to squeeze one in.
Ease to the Rockies real quick with Bill McDonald.
Hello.
Hello Art, this is Tom calling WRKO-680, it's the call station.
The question is, the magnetic electro-magnetic propulsion unit, would that make a low humming noise?
I had a I don't know how to thank you.
I want to just thank you from the bottom of my heart for being here.
hold on, associated Bill, we have so little time with the drive system, would there be a low humming noise or a noise
associated with the drive?
Close to the ground, in levitation mode, in contact with the atmosphere, sure, why not? It vibrates molecules,
vibrating molecules will give off a hum.
Bill, I don't know how to thank you, I want to just thank you from the bottom of my heart for being here, we're out
of time, incredible program.
Your website is there.
We've got a link up.
They can go explore all they want.
Anything else you want to give out?
Any information?
Very quickly.
Yeah.
If anybody's interested in ghosts, my wife, Lori McDonald, is a ghost hunter who photographs anomalous energy in locations and places purported to be haunted.
All in the family, huh, Bill?
Yeah, and also, we are available if you've been abducted or if there is a really, really good vehicle that you saw up close.
We're always looking for new spacecraft to reconstruct and composite using proper detective methods and standards.
We'll do it before I leave.
Thank you again, Bill.
Thank you so much for being here.
It was an honor, sir.
Thank you.
Good night.
Crystal Gale take us out tonight, Friday night, Saturday morning.
It's been some program, huh?
From the high desert.
Good night.
Good night in the desert, shooting stars across the sky.
This magical journey will take us on a ride Filled with the longing, searching for the
truth.
Oh.
Will we make it till tomorrow?
Will the sun shine on you?
Midnight in the desert, and we're listening.
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