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Nov. 22, 2002 - Art Bell

02:46:32

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Roswell UFO Crash - Bill Doleman - Bill McDonald

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59:50

bill doleman

45:46

bill mcdonald

39:52

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Welcome to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
unidentified		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from November 22nd, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be.
		I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM, Friday night, Saturday morning version.
		Tonight, we're going to do something very special.
		The Sci-Py channel, as you know, this night aired a special on television.
		That, um, you know, I understand.
		I mean, there are production values in television.
		It was a two-hour special, and you've got to drag it out to get you two hours of TV.
		And so they did that, and that would lead, I'm sure, many people to say, ah, you know, it was like the opening of a pyramid door and stuff like that.
		Well, yeah, it was, in terms of production values.
		However, and this is a really big, however, I think the wait was worth it on a couple of very, very important counts.
		Lies.
		You know, I think that technology, and this is something my wife said after watching it, she said, you know, technology is caught up to the Air Force.
		And so I'm going to tell you right at the very beginning of the program what they told you at the end, which was extremely profound.
		No question about it.
		Not a little lies.
		Not a little white lies.
		Not the mogul lies about Roswell.
		But a much, much bigger lie.
		Definitely a much, much bigger lie.
		And, you know, that information absolutely is profound.
		I mean, the smoking gun, pretty damn close, I'd say.
		For those of you intimately familiar with the Roswell story, there would have been a lot of repeat information in there, but the witness testimony on the program was profound.
		And then, of course, the famous Raimi memo.
		And this is what they ended with.
		And this is really the smoking gun.
		It probably is a smoking gun.
		On July 8th, one of eight photographs taken, very famous photographs you remember with General Roger Raimi and his chief of staff, Colonel Thomas Du Bose, and the piece of aluminum that they had up there as a lie, right, which they've now admitted was a lie, is itself indeed a lie, but boy, what they found.
		After two years of research, a scientific researcher, Dr. Rudiak, I believe it was, actually took one of those photographs of those two men standing in front of the lie, one of them kneeling, and has deciphered the text of the message the general was holding in his hand.
		And it looks to me like it's accurately deciphered.
		The text reads, this is what General Ramey was holding in his hand while that photograph was taken.
		They actually zoomed in, used computers, and figured out what the message says.
		And it says, among other things, Fort Worth Army Airfield acknowledges that a disc, in quotes, a disc is the next new find west of the Cordon.
		And listen carefully.
		And the victims of the wreck, victims, it says, of the wreck, you forwarded to the team at Fort Worth, Texas, the aviators in the disc shipped by a B-29 Special Transport or C-47.
		Now that's the text of the message, including fully readable lines like, and the victims of the wreck in the disc they will ship.
unidentified		In the disc they will ship.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now this is on the paper that the general is holding in his hand July 8th, 1947.
		Now that means the whole thing's a big damn lie.
		And that was revealed at the end of the program.
		That is very non-trivial.
		It's profound indeed if an alien craft landed, correction crashed in the Roswell Desert in 1947.
		It's very, very profound.
		And you may note that sprinkled throughout the entire program, they had a recent Roper survey that showed six to seven of 10 Americans believe all kinds of things.
		Six of 10 or 7 of 10 or so say that it would not disturb their religious beliefs to find out there was alien life here on Earth, that sort of thing, or alien life period.
		Which goes back to the Brooking Institution study that suggests the opposite, of course, that there would be hell to pay if that were discovered.
		And of course, the program also focused on Dr. Bill Dolman, who's an archaeologist in New Mexico, who was commissioned to go by the sci-fi channel and do an actual archaeological dig there.
		They came away with a frustrating 66 bags of something.
		We can find out more of what that something was from Dr. Bill Dolman because he's coming up as a guest in a few minutes.
		And following Dr. Dolman is Bill McDonald, who promises to take us on a virtual tour of the spacecraft that crashed at Roswell.
		So it should be an interesting program.
		William H. Dolman was born in 1948 in La Paz, Bolivia, to Edgar and Dorothy Dolman.
		His father was a career officer in the U.S. Army, and young Bill lived In Hawaii, Germany, and several U.S. states during his youth following graduation from St. John's College in Santa Fe, New Mexico.
		He worked as a bartender, restaurant manager for five years, but had thoughts of becoming a writer while researching an article on excavations under the floor of a local museum for the Santa Fe, New Mexican.
		He fell into a career as an archaeologist at the Museum of New Mexico, where he worked in cultural resource management until 1981.
		In 1977, he began graduate studies in archaeology at the University of New Mexico, and in 81 moved to Albuquerque to complete his M.A. in 82.
		In the same year, he began work as a project director for UNM's Office of Contract Archaeology, where he has directed numerous cultural resource management projects, including archaeological survey testing and excavation projects throughout New Mexico.
		In 1995, Dr. Dolman received his Ph.D. from the University of New Mexico, with his dissertation being based on a series of OCA projects.
		In 2000, he became a principal investigator for OCA.
		Dr. Dolman's research specialties include environmental analysis, prehistoric hunter-gatherers, we still have some of those running around, the application of geological methods to archaeology and computer database design, and statistical analysis.
		Dr. Dolman was featured on tonight's program since they went there with the facilities to do a scientific investigation of the soil and look for possible artifacts.
		And remember, they did come up with 66 frustratingly unanalyzed bags of something, which, of course, begs the probability of another show on sci-fi's part should they find something that radiates unnaturally.
		In a moment, Dr. Dolman on his part in this program.
		All right, so Dr. Dolman, I would like to welcome you to the program, and I know you've had like press interviews all day.
		You've had a party while you watch the TV show itself, I guess, which you hadn't seen up until now.
		Welcome.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is all that true?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Pretty accurate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've been doing a lot of interviews?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Been on the run, on the phone, whatever, all day for about two days.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You had not seen the program itself until tonight, right?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, you heard what I just said about it.
		I'd be interested before we get into your part actually in the program itself, in your take on the program itself.
		What do you think?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		It fulfilled my expectations a lot.
		I was quite impressed when we were out there by the film crew and the quality of their professionalism.
		It was quite clear that Melissa Joe Peltier, the director, had probably earned the two Emmys that she's acquired during her career.
		She's done a lot of educational programming, apparently.
		And so they had given me a couple of other documentaries they'd done, like The Lost Dinosaurs of Egypt, which is something if you ever get a chance to see, you definitely should see, because it's really well done, and it's got lots of good animation, and it's got some excited and interested young paleontologists in it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you knew the quality of their work, anyway.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and it fulfilled it that way completely.
		It was also pretty much what I expected in terms of giving an overview of the history of the Roswell incident and all of the sort of everything from mythology to folklore that has grown out of it.
		I mean, there's just reads and reads of information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, again, before we really get into your part in this, removing yourself from the show for a second, just as a person who sat down and watched the program and listened to all the witnesses and listened to all the testimony and then the big deal at the end with the text message and all the rest of it, on a personal level, not a professional level, just on a personal level, how did all that hit you?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		It was very interesting.
		Actually, the point that I was trying to get at is that, in fact, I was pretty unknowledgeable of the details of the Roswell story and the history of all the research that's been done on it until I got, you know, I went into the field with very little knowledge of it.
		I mean, in New Mexico, obviously it's a big cultural thing.
		It's a big economic tourism thing.
		And New Mexicans happily joke about it all the time.
		And anybody who's been to Roswell has noticed that they have alien heads on the lamppost and the streets are full of UFO stores and things like that.
		After that sort of anecdotal experience, you know, I really didn't know much about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on KBIM in Roswell right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're one of our affiliates.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, folks in Roswell.
		You're a very nice town.
		I enjoyed being there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you still, you haven't answered my question.
		I mean, just sitting and observing the program and taking in all that evidence that they presented, how did it hit you?
		in other words at any point through that program uh...
		or even at the end we going all that maybe they want uh...
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		I wasn't bowled over, but I was already aware of the allegations of government secrecy and cover-ups, and I, A, don't know the details of the allegations, and B, am firmly convinced the government doesn't always tell us the truth.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		That's true today, as much as it probably was back then.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it absolutely is.
		That's right.
		I thought the text message was, you know, kind of damning in a way.
		I mean, some of the things said in there weren't exactly the story they were kneeling on there, huh?
		All right, so the sci-fi channel contacted you because you're, I guess, in New Mexico.
		You're at the university and you're an archaeologist, so it makes sense they would go to you, right?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Well, pretty much, because despite the unusual nature of the site and the reported unusual origin of the site, it's still essentially just like any other archaeological site.
		Something happened there and left physical evidence.
		The crucial difference is probably that most of the time when we go to an archaeological site, there's some evidence on the surface that it's there.
		Not always though, but sometimes, usually there is.
		In this case, there wasn't.
		So we had to rely on the UFO researchers Don Schmidt and Tom Kerry, who in turn are relying on eyewitness accounts and on having actually been taken there by eyewitnesses or people who knew their eyewitnesses and said, this is where it happened.
		This is where there used to be a mark in the ground, which is now covered up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I didn't think they gave you enough time to comment on a lot of things.
		I mean, they took, what, 66 bags out of there of something.
		You know, I don't know.
		I want to ask you about that first, I think.
		I mean, give us a little hint of what kinds of things, now that the program is done, I don't think there's any, you're not barred in any legal way from doing that, are you?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		No, I have a statement from them that says that the non-disclosure agreement that was part of our contract expired at 8 p.m. Eastern at the end of the first broadcast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
		Well, all right, then it is now expired, just.
		What kind of stuff?
		I mean, 66 bags?
		God, that's a lot of bags.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		That's a lot of stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a lot of something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So could you take out, could you remember any items that were recovered and describe them?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Let me tell you about the 66 bags, and then I'll talk about items.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		The 66 bags, I tried to do a count today.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		The stuff is actually in, under lock and key, in a vault in Roswell that's being paid for by sci-fi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		We actually had 60, what we call FS numbers.
		That stands for field specimen.
		The number is tied to the location that that, whatever it is, came from.
		And if multiple things come from it, they all get the same FS number.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, if you found something really startling, you could reference the FS number and go back to that exact spot.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, we can say it came from level 3 of grid 16, which is located at 1850 North, 1963 East.
		And so we tie it down to a 50 by 50 centimeter area and a 10 centimeter level within that 50 by 50 centimeter area.
		And so we had 60 FS numbers, and I believe we had something like 24 bags that contained things.
		And then we have 60 bags that contained soil samples.
		And what we did, our job out there was basically to look for two things.
		Any debris that was in the debris field that had somehow been missed by the government cleanup and been either because it was dragged into an animal burrow or into a pack rat nest or it was so small they didn't notice it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would there have naturally, Dr. Goleman, have been a number of things like that, that even a team of GIs, you know, who usually pick up cigarette butts, are driven across the field to sort of pick up as they go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would there have been a number of things like you just described probably down in the soil one way or the other or missed?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		You know, there's a whole slew of different things you could bring to bear on that, but the statements that you came up with would be largely speculative.
		Nonetheless, anybody who's dropped their mom's favorite pot or a glass on the concrete floor or whatever knows that when something breaks, there are usually way more little pieces than there are big pieces.
		There's actually mathematical models for how that comes out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All the time, I'm an electronics doctor, and I'm working on something, and inevitably, you know, one little damn screw falls out, and it falls into the rug, or it falls immediately right at my feet.
		There's no way I already know I can't find it.
		I call my wife, Han, come here.
		I'm looking for one of these.
		She'll find it.
		But I'll miss it every single time.
		So, yeah.
		So I can imagine, like, GIs crawling across a field, if that happened, as they have described, they'd miss a lot of little things, wouldn't they?
		Probably.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		I would presume so.
		I had the debris.
		I've heard various descriptions, but the debris is usually described as being extremely lightweight.
		So it could have blown around a bunch.
		Who knows if it was made of little pieces or not, but if it acted anything like a glass or a pot, well, then there would have been more little pieces than big pieces.
		Pack rats do collect shiny things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And also something hitting that hard would inevitably drive some things into the ground.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It wouldn't all be on top necessarily, would it?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		You know what, again, that's really kind of a speculative thing.
		We had a number of discussions amongst ourselves out there about, well, you know, where would the stuff end up and would it be driven into the ground?
		And there was one argument that, well, if it's really hard and heavy, yeah, it would be driven into the ground.
		And if it's really light, maybe it would just bounce off.
		So, you know, the answer to the question that you're asking in the long run requires an awful lot of speculation.
		But what we did was we assumed that if there was debris there, and if it didn't get all picked up, I mean, we kind of went in there with an argument that it couldn't have all been picked up, just as we just discussed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think that's right.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Over the 55 years that has ensued since this event took place, some of it would have become incorporated into the soils or sediments on the surface through a variety of processes, including erosion, which would wash it down and also bury it in the low places, basically.
		Animals burrow in the desert on a regular basis, and they basically, over a long period of time, churn The soil.
		Things that are on the bottom come to the top.
		Things that are on the top go to the bottom.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They certainly do, Doctor.
		Hold on, we're at the bottom of the hour already.
		We'll have more of a stretch to discuss this as we come into the second half hour.
		Dr. Bill Dolman, who's the archaeologist you saw on the sci-fi channel, is my guest.
unidentified		You're listening to Arkbell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks tonight, an oncore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from November 22nd, 2002.
		I was mine.
		But I couldn't find a way.
		So I've got a home leaving life, tell me, little light, tell me light.
		Oh no, no, you can't decide.
		Thank you.
		Thank you.
		I'm afraid I'm a dumb and you're a man.
		If you don't like the club of mind, that I'll tell you.
		You shouldn't worry that that ain't no crime.
		Cause if you get it wrong, you'll get it right next time.
		Next time.
		Next time.
		You need direction, yeah, you need a meeting.
		When you're standing in the cross, you're going to be highway with the thing.
		After a while, you get to recognize the nine.
		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from November 22nd, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've got the archaeologist sci-fi hat on tonight.
		Fascinating man, Dr. Bill Dolman, William Dolman.
		He was out there doing that dig.
		24 bags of things.
		Now, a lot of people out there are going to say, give me a break.
		Things.
		Well, I'll tell you something about analysis, because as you know, or maybe you don't know, I've got a part.
		I've got a little, it's called arts parts, bismuth, magnesium, bismag material, really weird stuff.
		And analysis takes a long time, folks.
		The scientific method takes a long damn time.
		This part still exhibits unearthly qualities about it.
		Nobody really knows about it.
		It's been tested.
		It's been to Carnegie in Washington.
		The little part that was sent to me anonymously that many of you will remember from shows past, that's been through the mill, and it took years.
		In the end, it took years, and we still don't have the answers.
		But certainly many strange things were discovered about this part that is affectionately known as Arts Parts.
		Really weird.
		It was tested, and it did some jumping with high voltage and all kinds of weird things.
		It levitated.
		It did all kinds of things.
		I've still got these parts.
		And they were analyzed over a period of months and then ultimately years.
		So when you hear they've got 24 bags of things, then don't expect instant analysis.
		I know that's what everybody wanted, but you're not going to get that.
		But 24 bags of things, that's a lot of things.
		One thing obviously not at all conspicuously absent from any discussion on that program was what the things were.
		We didn't know there were 24 bags of things versus dirt, you know, the dirt samples.
		But we're going to get to that.
		Dr. Welcome back.
		You were talking about small animals, how they burrow.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		The process is known to archaeologists and biologists as bioturbation.
		There's actually an awful lot of research into the degree to which bioturbation affects artifacts on the surface and in the ground.
		And it's a subject of great interest to archaeologists, obviously, because they want to know how much the things that they're digging up have been messed with by animals and moved around.
		You know, if you basically, if you could sort of do a high-speed video, you know, one of those time-lapse videos of the desert surface over the, say, for the period of 55 years we're talking about, you know, it would look like a giant dust plot because these guys are kicking up dirt and digging it up on a regular basis.
		And archaeologists have actually even gone out, buried things, and then waited 10 years and gone back to see how much they've moved around, and they've often moved around an awful lot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		So, our goal was to go to this skip site or debris field that's the initial point of impact, according to the story.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		It's the location that is best known and least controversial among UFO researchers, as far as I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		And find the impact mark that eyewitnesses reported and find any of that leftover debris.
		And we're talking about the debris now.
		And so we applied a variety of methods to help us find the debris under the assumption that most of it had been picked up, most of which was left was really small.
		And with the possible hope that if any bigger pieces had been there and they'd been dragged into a burrow or into a nest by a pack rat or something else, that it would be under the surface now what we might be able to detect it.
		And the ways that we went about detecting it and digging holes in what we thought were the right places were the use of a high-powered metal detector survey that we did across the ground.
		Actually, it was performed by a geophysicist by the name of Dave Heinman.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How surprising were the results of that?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		A single distinctive-looking anomaly was discovered.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		And it gets called an anomaly because this is detecting something under the surface.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If I were to take that same instrument and go marching across a field in Iowa, for example, would I be likely to find many such anomalies in any field?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		It would really depend.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		The thing is so sensitive that the nails that we drove into the ground to mark our grid system show up as big bright red spots.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So did something underground, big, bright red.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		The anomaly that we got was actually a little less intense, but it was big.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it was several meters across.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		And so we put test pits in there.
		We also eventually used a backhoe to excavate that anomaly, you know, to run a trench to it and see what we could figure out about it.
		But in the beginning, of course, all we had was the results of his survey, and it just tells us that there's something under the surface.
		And so we put test pits into that location.
		At the same time, we were also saying, okay, if animals buried stuff, maybe we should put test bits in places where we see evidence of animals burrowing, but not recently, longer ago.
		So we put a test pit in a couple of those things.
		And finally, figuring that, you know, water runs downhill, every geomorphologist and fluvial sedimentologist in the world knows that, knows that, generally speaking, sediments get carried from high places to low places.
		So we just looked at the lay of the land, essentially, and decided where those low places were and put pest pits in those as well.
		The other geophysical perspection technique that we used is called electromagnetic conductivity.
		To give you a little of the technical stuff, but not go into a lot of it.
		Essentially, it's kind of a big radio antenna.
		And it generates about an 8 kilohertz radio wave and that goes into the ground.
		Now when your radio picks up a radio signal, the same thing happens that happens when this radio signal goes into the ground.
		The radio signal wave passes across your antenna and generates a little teeny current in that antenna.
		Of course, that little current is then basically decoded by your radio and turned into the sound that you hear.
		But any flowing current in a wire also generates an electromagnetic field.
		And if that current is flowing back and forth, like the one being induced by that radio signal, a very weak little radio signal is going to be radiated back out.
		So when this radio signal goes into the ground, anything in the ground that can conduct electricity, like wet soil, will do exactly just that, radiate back a really weak radio signal.
		So what this electroconductivity device does is it measures the signal coming back.
		And it measures both its strength and it also measures its phase delay.
		That is the difference between the time the signal was sent out and the time it was received.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Its most practical use being finding water, for example.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		It could find water.
		It could find buried metal.
		In this particular case, what it was looking for was subtle variations in soil moisture.
		The reason for using that technique and looking for subtle variations in soil moisture is that if there had been a gouge or furrow there and it had filled in, which if it was there it obviously had done because it was no longer visible on the surface, then the soils that filled that gouge mark in would be softer and looser and more porous.
		And the remnants of the original surface that formed the furrow would be somewhat more compacted by the impact.
		And they would still retain the properties of very old soils, which are more cemented and less porous, essentially.
		So if there was a furrow, if it was buried, then the soils in it would contain a little more moisture than the soils around it.
		Did they?
		The conductivity survey turned up two hot spots.
		It turned up three.
		Two of them were lined up right along the center line of the furrow as it was pointed out to be by Don Schmidt and Tom Kerry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're talking about the main furrow, not the secondary furrow that you discovered, that they pointed out on the show, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is the main furrow where Schmidt said.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Right, yeah.
		The only thing is we can't see anything on the surface, but he says he was taken there by eyewitnesses.
		He said this is where it was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's where it was.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		And we centered our whole grid system on that and ran, and I asked him, well, how much uncertainty is there in this location?
		And he said possibly as much as 200 feet.
		So we went 200 feet on either side as well.
		In any event, when Mr. Hineman was done with his geophysical perspection and the conductivity, and he called me and said, well, I've got hot spots, and they look to me like they're right along the alignment of the forum.
		So we dug, the first test bits we did were in those anomalies, because he actually did the conductivity survey first.
		He did the metal detection survey later.
		And so we put test bits into those, and later we put backhoe trenches into them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I saw the shot of the big backhoe trench when it was finished.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they showed you pointing to an exact area in that trench.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What were you pointing to?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was that?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		I was pointing to what just totally surprised me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what was that?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Well, we actually hadn't had a backhoe as part of the testing plan before we went out there because nobody thought the Bureau of Land Management would let us put backhoe trenches in their work.
		But when I got out there, I was standing there with Schmidt and Carey and the sci-fi people, and we were talking about, you know, the strategies we were going to use and everything.
		And I said, you know, if you really want to find that furrow, a backhoe is the answer to the question.
		We can put little test pits in, but we've only got eight volunteers instead of the 12 we thought we were going to have.
		And you have to realize that if it was there and the government picked up most of the debris and there's only a little bit left, and we're talking about an area that is 120 meters wide and 300 meters long, that you've got a very big haystack and some very few teeny weeny needles in it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Essentially.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		And so digging a couple of test pits is not necessarily going to answer the question, but, you know, we're going to go out and we're going to dig test pits.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So how did you get hold of the backhoe?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		I called the guy.
		The guy that did it was a fellow by the name of Elihu Aragon.
		He has been doing backhoe work for archaeologists for over 20 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no.
		I mean, how did you get this past the BLM?
		You didn't?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		They came out and we said, you know what?
		What do you think about us using the backhoe?
		And they said, well, we'll go back and find out.
		And I said, that was okay with them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they gave permission.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, excellent.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		They didn't go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, exactly.
		So it is BLM land, by the way, folks, just so you know for sure.
		It's BLM land, government land.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		And we went through the normal process of filing for an archaeological permit to do the work out there.
		And so they approved the use of the backhoe, and so we use the backhoe to do two things.
		Abacco obviously is not a way to look for a little teeny mini things, because if you try screening backhoe dirt, you're going to be there until the next century comes around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		But it is a very quick way to look at what the dirt under the surface looks like.
		So we ran backhoe trenches across the alignment of the furrow.
		We ran backhoe trenches across the anomalies.
		One of the major anomalies, the big anomaly that came out of the conductivity survey, and we ran a backhoe trench eventually across the metal detection anomaly.
		The backhoe couldn't be out there until the last day of the project because the operator was serving on a pit crew on the Laguna Seco race in California during the weekend.
		But he did come out, and of course he's pretty fast, so we got our trenches dug on that last day.
		And at the very end of the day, I went to look at the trenches that he had dug across the furrow, and I came across this feature you mentioned a moment ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You were pointing at it, yes.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I was pointing at it, and I generally call it the backhoe trench anomaly, or just the trench anomaly.
		And in the show, you saw a picture of it.
		It was kind of a lopsided, V-shaped feature outlined by on the left-hand or kind of north side, an apparent line of very fine-grained sediments, on the right side by a color difference between the soil inside it and the soil outside of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, what does all that mean?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Well, what I looked at was this thing that, like I said, it was a feature.
		The soil inside of it had kind of caved in as if it were softer.
		And if that rings a bell, I was talking about how the soil sediments that filled this thing in would be softer than the sediments on the side.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		And it was sitting basically right where it was supposed to be.
		Because when I asked Mr. Schmidt, I said, what did this furrow look like?
		How deep was it?
		He said, well, it was really kind of shallow, you know, maybe only a few inches deep for most of its length because the thing was skidding at that point.
		But where it really hit, it was as much as two feet deep.
		And this was one of the three trenches that I put across the location that he said this is where it hit.
		This is where I was told it hit.
		And so what I was looking at was something that could be a filled-in, lopsided, V-shaped gouge mark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		V-shaped gouge mark.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, like, you know, think of your flying saucer and the edge hitting it, or maybe it had a keel, or, you know, whatever.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		But I had an unusual feature in the middle of this trench in what are otherwise very sort of monotonous-looking soils.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How far down?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		It went down to a depth of about, I'd say, 18 to 20 inches, and it was maybe a little over 3 feet wide.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		eighteen to twenty inches down was right the shape was more or less right home and the whip was This was more like about 3 to 4 feet wide, but, you know, I'm not going to say, oh, well, 10 feet is exactly what it was because we're talking third-hand hearsay evidence that's 55 years old.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, again, you're giving me good, solid scientific evidence right now about what you found.
		But, you know, it occurs to me as you're speaking, gee, as much as, say, two feet down, this thing may have gone.
		And I'm thinking a kite made of aluminum foil and balsa wood, no matter its velocity, would not impact the ground to two feet, would it?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Not the pictures I've seen of the Project Mogul balloons, and certainly not the payloads that go with weather balloons today.
		They showed me those when I went to the National Weather Service.
		And their payloads are light.
		They're little styrofoam containers with a few little lightweight electronic components in it.
		Now, in 1947, they might have been heavier, but not much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not much, right?
		Because they were carried by a balloon.
		So they'd more or less bounce on the ground and smash up, right?
		But they wouldn't impact the ground to the distance we're talking about here, a couple feet.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Not to my knowledge.
		I'm way not an expert in weather balloons, Project Mogul, the various research institutions, including the military and White Sands and Sandia Labs.
		They all launch experiments that are airborne by balloons.
		And the way they work is the balloon goes up, and the higher it gets, the more it expands until it exceeds its elastic limit, and then it explodes.
		And then the thing comes down.
		But the payloads are, as far as I know, way too light to create something more than half a millimeter deep in the soil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		Exactly.
		Okay, thank you.
		So, I mean, in your mind, there's no question.
		This was an anomaly.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		It looked like an anomaly.
		Now, I didn't probe it.
		I didn't test it at that time.
		I said, well, you know, this is just so strange.
		I am so surprised.
		And I'm not going to touch it.
		I took a photograph of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Let's look ahead for a second.
		If you had time and money, Doctor, and you could go back there and begin to now research in that furrow that was dug by the backhoe, would there be a lot you could do?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		I think so.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		I'd want to excavate it like an archaeological feature, which would mean coming down on top of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		And I, in fact, did go and do further investigations on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		After the filming.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Because the last day when I found it.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		And at the time, it was a little bit of just a crazy zoo because it was starting to get dark.
unidentified		We were waiting for the helicopter to get back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know it's TV.
		And so anyway, you've been back.
		What additional things have you found out?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		The first thing was that when I came back about, let's see, I got to look at a calendar here for just a second.
		Yeah, I found it on September the 24th, and I got back to look at it the first time about October 5th.
		So that was a little over a week and a half.
		And then I went back and looked at it more thoroughly on October the 11th, and then I did some final looking at it about a week after that.
		And finally, I worked up the nerve to kind of start scraping away at it and seeing what I could find.
		I ended up taking soil samples and stuff like that.
		And it mostly, when I first went back to it and after that, had faded.
		Second of all, some of the features that stuck out like sore thumbs in the photograph and when I originally looked at it had also somewhat disappeared.
		Now, huh?
		First question.
		Did anybody go in there and fool with it besides me?
		I'm really certain that didn't happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can't promise.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll be at the video camera there for those days.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, hold on.
		We'll be right back after the break.
		Take a break and a good break, and we'll be right back.
		Did anybody mess with it?
		No, he says.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from November 22, 2002.
		We'll be right back.
		What if they promise you ever we'd ever win?
		I'm a cat in the dark and then, yeah.
		We treat the late of the earth.
		Whoever might do this or me.
		I travel the world and the level of deep.
		Everybody is looking for something.
		Some of them want to use you.
		Some of them want to get used by you.
		Some of them want to abuse you.
		Some of them want to be of you We keep the late of thee.
		Who and why do they travel the world and aware?
		Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight's program originally aired November 22nd, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
		The archaeologist that went to Roswell for the Sci-Fi Channel, Dr. William Dolman, is my guest.
		And now you're beginning to hear things you didn't hear or see on the sci-fi channel tonight.
		What he thought had been there, or in fact what had been there, has begun to fade.
		He says he doesn't think anybody messed with it, but it's begun to fade.
		That's really curious.
		We'll find out what he means in a moment.
		Once again, from New Mexico, here is Dr. William Dolman.
		Dr. So we left the last hour and here this was fading.
		What you had captured in a photograph and seen with your own eyes when you came back on site was fading.
		That's hard to understand.
		How could that be?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		There's actually a pretty simple explanation for it.
		Okay.
		On the 18th of September, a front came through and it brought with it a fair amount of, a pretty substantial amount of precipitation for our deserts anyway.
		Right.
		And that, especially because it was September, not in the middle of the summer, most of that moisture went into the ground and stayed there.
		In the middle of the summer, of course, it's going to dry back out and it's going to come up through what's called a bapotranspiration through the plants, etc.
		But a lot of it went in, and it just tends to fan out into the sediments until it's kind of reached a limit that's kind of determined by the cohesive forces of the individual soil particles and so forth and so on.
		And so essentially it faded a lot in terms of just drying out, I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, are you referring to that portion which you could see an explorer or the entire affair?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Well, all the dirt was drying out.
		And, you know, once you dig a hole in the background, the sides of the hole are going to expose the moist dirt.
		We're not talking dripping wet here.
		We're just talking slightly moist.
		To the air, and it will dry out.
		It will dry out overnight, practically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What I'm saying is, is there now, is there additional buried Evidence, or is the fact that you dug the ditch and you got right into the middle of it, does that mean it's now all gone?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		You know, that's one possibility I considered because when I finally went back and also scraped at it, I thought, well, maybe we just happen to hit the central portion of it with the backhoe and totally obliterate it.
		Now, if you imagine the scenario that supposedly created the furrow, it should have some length to it.
		In other words, it wasn't like it bounced and created a little hole in the ground.
		It hit a glancing blow and created a gouge, a scar of some kind.
		So one thing that I noticed was that I couldn't really see it in the other side of the trench.
		This trench is only about three feet wide.
		And so that was kind of like, well, if it's not on both sides of the trench, maybe it's not something.
		The other possibilities that occurred to me were that it was a coyote burrow or some other kind of large animal burrow.
		There are coyotes out there.
		There are kit foxes out there.
		They dig fairly substantial burrows, and maybe the burrow was dug and then eventually collapsed.
		And after it collapsed, the rest of it filled in.
		And I actually went to a burrow on the site and measured the angle, the downward angle of the entrance and compared that downward angle with one side of the lopsided V, the shower side, and the angles were within, you know, five, ten degrees of each other.
		So that seemed conceivable.
		The other possibility that occurred to me was that the feature had been created by the backhoe bucket wiggling as it was excavating.
		In other words, the V-shaped figure that you could see in the photograph and that you could see in the show tonight would have been created with the backhoe digging in at a shallow angle and then pulling up at a steeper angle.
		Or it just wiggled sideways in the middle of digging.
		Now, I happen to know that this guy doesn't normally dig that way.
		He goes down a little bit and then scrapes back a long ways, kind of shaving it off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they actually showed him digging, and I didn't see it digging that way at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was a very clean swath he took.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		In any event, when I thought, well, okay, maybe this was created by the backhoe, especially because, you know, it seemed to not go into the profile very far at all, as far as I could tell.
		Now, before I get to that, I will say that what I did was when I was finally there on the last visit that I made, I said, okay, I'm going to try and recreate the soil moisture conditions of September 24th.
		And I got me a couple of spray bottles, and I just sprayed the face of the profile to wet it down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Again, to basically make it moist, not dripping wet or anything like that.
		And I took more photographs of it.
		And there was a little hint of it still there.
		Not much, but a little hint of it.
		Armed with that, I went back thinking, okay, this was created by the backhoe.
		I said, okay, I'm going to call the fellow that did the backhoe excavation and ask him if it could have been created by his backhoe.
		And I also emailed him the same photograph that was on the show last night.
		Or tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Last night now.
		And he got back to me and he said, no, it could not have been my backhoe bucket.
		I don't dig that way.
		And furthermore, I felt it with my backhoe.
		Now, when this guy says he felt something through a backhoe, a lot of people are going to go, what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, I understand.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		But I've seen him do it.
		I have literally been on a site with this guy, and he will be digging away, and I'll hear his machine powered down, and I'll know that he found something, and I'll go over and look at it.
		He will literally feel it.
		I mean, I guess it's the sensitivity of the hydraulics or whatever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, man, machine meld.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You can feel when there's a different pressure that just occurred.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Well, it works for him, anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I understand.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		And so he said, I felt it.
		I got out.
		I looked at it.
		I pointed it out to the still photographer.
		The still photographer looked at it.
		He saw it too.
		And so, well, I was about to take this thing and say, well, I guess I just have to accept the fact that it's not nearly the exciting thing that I thought it was.
		And here I have this guy telling me, well, no, it really was there.
		I saw it.
		I felt it.
		It was softer in the middle.
		So now I don't know what to think.
		But I had him leave it open.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And one possibility, again, is that doing what was done might have destroyed a lot of the evidence.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		It could be, but since if we were in the right place, if the orientation of the furrow that was pointed out to us was more or less correct, which is to the southeast, if, and now we jump into the realm of speculation,
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		but if the blow was a glancing blow that created more than just a pockmark, then either it was only three feet wide and we just happened to get the only three feet that were there, or else there's more to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That just doesn't seem real likely, does it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not really.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		But again, you have to, you know, the information you're basing your speculation on, of course, is subject to an awful lot of question from a lot of people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I mean, to say that is almost in itself speculation because there's so much more that could be looked at.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, okay.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		In any event, though, you know, all we could do is go with the information that we were provided, and that was that there was a gouge, and that the initial impact end, it was as much as two feet deep.
		Beyond that, we do go into speculation.
		I found something that looked pretty unusual, and I really literally sat there looking at that thing late in the 10th day of the project, and I went, holy, and I won't repeat the rest of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I got it.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		But I was totally surprised.
		I mean, I really was totally surprised.
		And I would, you know, people will probably always question my impartiality while I was out there, but I represent the University of New Mexico.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I don't question it.
		And I think you're giving it to us good and straight at the moment.
		I appreciate that.
		This is fascinating.
		Now, let me jump, if I can, to the bags.
		I mean, okay, I understand.
		What did you say?
		60 soil samples?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		60 soil samples that Have yet to be analyzed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But then you said 24 bags of things.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		I'm going to give you a little magic term.
		It's an acronym.
unidentified		Okay.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		The MUO.
		And it was used in the show some, and it was an acronym for a phrase that we came up with because the question arose, okay, we're going to go out there and look for debris.
		We're not exactly sure what it's going to look like, but we think it's going to be pretty strange.
		Gotcha.
		So what shall we do with this stuff?
		Who's it going to belong to?
		And so I said, to be unbiased, we know there's a potential that we might find some Native American artifacts out there.
		And there was, I don't think we had any in the pits, but on the hill nearby, there clearly had been some kind of visitation because there are little bits and pieces of stone debris from there tipping.
		And we figured pretty much if we found a horseshoe nail or an old tobacco can or something like that, it'd be pretty obvious what it was.
		And the natural things, I made a point of showing all the excavators what natural things look like out there.
		And the natural things out there are pretty much plant roots, insect casts, little bits of rock that haven't been altered by people, and dirt.
		So that pretty much leaves something that we called a historic material of uncertain origin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, nails, pieces of cans, that kind of thing, were automatically discarded and not regarded as things that went into the bags, right?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Well, if it's an artifact, it went into a bag, but that's my understanding.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Let's see, we got one bag, and it probably means one artifact of a Native American artifact.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you did?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		And we got about 24 things that on our form were listed as other.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Other.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Other.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		But that other was the column that we used on our form, our logging form, to indicate that someone had recovered something that qualified as a hamuo.
		They looked at it.
		They said, this is not natural.
		I don't know what it is.
		It's not Native American.
		I still don't know what it is.
		I'm going to stick it in a bag, and it's going to end up in a vault in Roswell.
		Do you recall what happened?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you recall getting a look at any of these unidentifiables?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Very few of them.
		And the reason for that was, there were a number of reasons for that.
		One, I didn't have the time.
		I was running around like a headless chicken running an operation that involves eight volunteers, a camera crew from California, VIPs from the sci-fi channel, visitations from BLM archaeologists and other folks, the caterer, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
		Two, anything that might be that, I pretty much wanted it to just go in a bag and we weren't going to talk about it anymore.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		And not lots of hullabaloo, which would slow things down even more.
		The few that I did see, I really couldn't tell you what they were.
		One was a thin thing that was about the color and thickness of duct tape, but it wasn't duct tape.
		It might be plastic.
		But again, I wasn't out there to analyze this stuff.
		I was out there to dig it up and put it in bags and do my best to ensure the site integrity.
		And we had a whole slew of means, you know, methods that were kind of unusual for us, but to try and make sure that nobody could salt the excavation overnight or anything like that.
		And then one of my staff found a bizarre little blob of orange stuff on the surface.
		And when the time came, we just measured it in using our transit and stuck it in a bag and it went off to Roswell under lock and key.
		But most of the stuff I did not see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, 24 bags of things.
		That's a lot of things.
		A lot of things.
		As I mentioned earlier in the show, I had something of very much unknown origin, which we ended up sending back to Carnegie for all kinds of radiation tests and all kinds of weird things.
		And it took so long.
		Americans want everything fast.
		I mean, they want to know exactly what you found in the 24 bags of things.
		They want to know exactly what those things are.
		Are any of them not of Earth?
		Are any of them on I guess so.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		The problem is I am not a material scientist.
		Archaeologists use material scientists of various kinds for a lot of things.
		Everything from figuring out what volcanic mountain a piece of obsidian came to to analyzing a burned potcher to get a thermoluminescence date out of it.
unidentified		Sure.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Really, material science.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		So, you know, in the long run, I am nowhere near qualified to say what kinds of analyses our things should be subjected to what kinds of analyses would demonstrate that something was clearly not of this earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, but if you get something where you've got to test down to an electron scanning microscope, that kind of thing, you're talking about time and money.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		You're certainly talking about money.
		I think, you know, what I think should happen to these things is they should go to a competent forensics lab or a materials lab, and I think discussions about that are going to be held sometime in the near future.
		But, you know, in many respects, archaeology is an awful lot like the current series of shows that are real popular, like Crime Scene Investigation and Crossing Jordan.
		You know, it's an eclectic science that brings in scientists from other fields an awful lot.
		Same thing with looking at a crime scene.
		An archaeological site's just a real old crime scene.
		And so, and you're absolutely right.
		It costs a lot of money to have things analyzed.
		And I think, you know, for example, if the FBI wants to analyze something real quick and they have some of the best labs In the country, well, they can do it quick, so it's probably more a matter of money than time.
		But again, I'm not an expert in material science and materials analysis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, but you do understand that.
		I mean, as I said, I had my own piece tested.
		You know, experts took it away and took little hunks of it and puzzled over it and did all kinds of spectrophyle work with it and electron scanning microscopes.
		And oh, my gosh.
		They went wild with that and found a number of anomalous things about it.
		So I'm trying to imagine, and this is just a little piece, right?
		I'm trying to imagine coming up with a few pieces that require that kind of investigation to understand if we've really got something or have absolutely nothing.
		So they've got a lot of work to do.
		I'm just saying that Americans, you know, when they're watching a show like that, they say at the end of the show, oh, God, look, all those bags, and we don't know a damn thing about them.
		And we're not going to for a while, would be the truth, wouldn't it?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Certainly, we're not going to until someone who is competent to analyze them analyzes them.
		And maybe, as you pointed out, it might take a number of different kinds of analyses in a number of different laboratories.
		And, you know, actually, since I'm probably going to be consulted on what we should do, I'd like to ask you a question, if I can.
		Fire away.
		What kind of analysis do you think would be best suited towards determining if something was definitely not manufactured on this planet?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, are you asking the wrong person.
		But I think that when they break something down, and I'm giving you a very non-scientific generality that I think I do know about, when they break something down chemically, something of this Earth has a certain atomic structure to each part of it.
		And I think that what they look for are atomic structures not common to Earth.
		And that's what they kind of hunt for.
		And so if it gets, you know, if one of these pieces in one of these bags proves to be that interesting, and it turns out that you found it in that place, then the case, it seems to me, begins to build pretty heavily, because, I mean, what are the odds of finding something that basically doesn't look like it's of this earth in that particular place?
		You know, the scientific method even would suggest that, gee, if that turns out to be the case, we probably have something here, don't we?
		I don't know.
		That's just a talk shows, Doctor.
		What do I know?
		You're the archaeologist.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Well, what do I know?
		Anybody who's been to a gem and mineral shop has found that, you know, like parting with a few bucks, usually less than $100 and rarely more than about $10 or $50, something like that, although you can't get them $1,000.
		You buy a meteorite.
		All meteorites are not on this Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		And so, but they have some pretty characteristic features on them, too.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		On the other hand, they like to slice them and show the internal crystals.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, they were able to determine we had a meteorite from Mars, although there's a big controversy about that.
		Listen, we're coming up to the breakpoint.
		Hold on, Doctor.
		Dr. William Dolman is my guest.
		He was the archaeologist featured on the sci-fi special tonight.
		Though it took a while to get there, I thought had some incredible, just incredible revelations during it.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from November 22, 2002.
		I've turned the dark away.
		We're too hard to think, believe it.
		I'm too hard to think, believe it.
		We had to get out before.
		But mad and got away.
		You will have a good night.
		I'm hanging in the shadow.
		I'm not sure.
		Still no more I'm lying.
		Running, oh, running tonight.
		You're looking so good, girl.
		It's a nurse.
		You're looking so good, girl.
		I am a fool to see that girl.
		Watch the sea, dig in the dancing sea.
		Friday night and the lights are low.
		Looking up for a place to go.
		With a bit of rock music.
		Getting in the swing.
		You come to look for a thing.
		Anybody could be that guy.
		Night is young and the music is high.
		With a bit of rock music.
		Everything's high.
		You're in the music dance.
		And when you get the dance.
		You are the dancing queen.
		Young and sweet only, sexy.
		You are the dancing queen.
		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an on-tour presentation of Coast to Coast AM from November 22nd, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're talking about the sci-fi special that ran last night now, and we've got the archaeologist who did the dig, Dr. Bill Goleman, who's the guy in charge from the University of New Mexico, and he's my guest right now.
		In a moment, we're going to ask about that second furrow, that one that he went sort of running over to.
		Stay right where you are.
		One other great mystery, not quite as great as that of Roswell itself, is suggested by somebody calling himself Angus, who fast blasts me southbound.
		That means he's a trucker out there.
		And he said, you know, good show, but why Brian Gumble?
		And Angus, southbound Angus there, buddy, you're right.
		Why, Brian, indeed, why Brian to Gumble?
		Brian Gumble I've known for some time, not personally, but certainly professionally.
		And Brian has a usual, very apparent disdain for things of this sort and is liable to chuckle and smirk and laugh.
		And I'm sure you've seen it on occasion when interviewing on this sort of subject.
		And I thought Brian was particularly, with the exception of one out-of-place smile at one point, kind of a little small, like a little smirky smile, he was pretty attentive and very serious, sort of like Mr. Gumbel had some sort of epiphany out there.
		I don't know.
		I'm just wondering if it's a great mystery anyway.
		Dr. Dolman, welcome back.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Good evening again, Dr. Good morning again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, good morning again.
		I know it's the end of a very, very long day for you.
		I understand that.
		During the course of the program, when they first showed where they thought the debris field was, they followed very closely thereafter with you discovering a second furrow.
		It showed you almost like running over there and saying, oh my God, or whatever plane pilots say just for the auger in or whatever, you know, a big expletive.
		If you'd told me this was it, I'd have gone, oh my God, right away, or something like that.
unidentified		So, I mean, that's pretty close.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They said it was like a quarter mile, and there was an obvious big, long something in the ground, right?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was a little closer to half a mile, but if you connect the dots between the furrow skip site debris field area where we worked and the final crash site, the coordinates for which were given to me by Tom Kerry, this thing that you're discussing and which I discovered is pretty much right on the line, those dots.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
		Really?
		Yeah.
		In other words, you can draw a line to the Which was miles away.
		This other furrow would have been more in line with that final crash site.
		Very close.
		So, you know, it didn't concentrate very long on your examination of this other furrow at all.
		In fact, sort of glossed over it in a way.
		I mean, it was very exciting, but kind of like in the program, it wasn't followed up on.
unidentified		That's correct.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		They did come out and film me talking about it, and I found it was actually something that we found, or I found, or I and my crew saw.
		When we first went out there, I'd say at least by the second day, driving in every morning, we could see it from the road.
		It was about, I don't know, 150 yards from the road.
		And it was a little bit of a slash along the hillside.
		If you recall from the show, they showed some long shots of it, and you could see this linear feature going across the hillside.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was a slash.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		You're right.
		And it's the kind of thing that as archaeologists who go out and walk around the landscape looking for things, our eyes are just used to picking out subtle things that a lot of people would not notice, and nobody else had noticed it.
		And we kind of chirdled it and chuffled about it.
		Finally, on the last day, as I was waiting for the backload to come in, he was moving real slow because he had it mounted on a big trailer, and the rudded ranch roads that he was going across made him go real slow.
unidentified		Sure.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		I said, okay, this is my chance to go look at this thing.
		And so I parked my vehicle at the top of the hill so Allie could see it as he towed his backhoe in and then went in search of this thing.
		And I came across it and I looked at it and essentially what we're talking is about a 10-foot wide, 100-foot long, eroded, flat-bottomed, kind of straight-sided depression.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Depression.
		Okay, well, as an archaeologist, what did that look like to you?
		I mean, did it look like water erosion or did it look like something went skidding through there?
		I mean, of the two, as an archaeologist, what would you think created that?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I looked at it and I said, okay, what could have created this?
		Exactly.
		Clearly, it was eroded.
		Excuse me.
		But it was about 10 feet wide.
		It kind of curved a little bit.
		And so I started thinking about the things that would do something like that.
		And one was I asked myself, okay, is this just a natural erosion channel?
		The desert is full of these things where you have nice grassland and all of a sudden there's a little gully there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm here in Nevada.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We have those.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		And out there, if you go back and you look at the show again, you'll notice that the hillsides just don't have those things on them.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		I couldn't find another one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They looked like gentle rolling hills.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		They're gentle rolling hills with pretty stable soils on them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's what it looked like.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		I did find and photograph a few little gullies, and they were always really shallow, just like this feature, but they were always at the bottoms of the little rolling valleys.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So probably not natural erosion.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Well, they were quite possibly natural erosion, but the point is that they were at the bottoms of the valleys and not on the side of the hill.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm talking about this particular one.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		In terms of looking like natural erosion?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's right.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		It did, with the exception that it didn't go downhill, and you've heard the old thing about water going downhill.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You told me about that early on, that archaeologists note all the time that water seems to continually go downhill.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's just that old thing about water and gravity.
		Anyway, this thing angles across the slope.
		It doesn't go down the slope.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, son of a gun.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		And I did some really detailed analyses to show that.
		We guy had my GIS cartographer guy determine the approximate slope for me.
		And we mapped the feature, and I took angles, you know, using a Brunton compass adjusted for magnetic north so that within a couple of degrees, at least, I could determine at what angle it ran to the prevailing slope there.
		And it was about 23, 25 degrees.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And from all of that, of course, you could actually, in a way, determine the trajectory of something that might have created that, if in fact that's the way it got created.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then you notice that it matched up with the final crash site.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Well, the trajectory, the angle of the feature itself, it curves slightly, but the average angle of the feature itself was 84 degrees from true north.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what does that mean with regard to the final crash site?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		The angle of the alignment of the furrow and the angle that takes you from the skip site debris field to the final crash site, at least to the coordinates given us by Tom Kerry, is about 124 degrees from true north.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		So it didn't line up with that angle, but the spot where I found that feature does line up with the initial impact and the final impact.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Son of a gun.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		That's kind of what I said.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Son of a gun.
		So then why didn't the sci-fi channel run over at this point?
		I mean, once you've discovered all of this, after all, you said under a half mile, gee, they could have made that mistake easily, it seems to me, that much of a mistake.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		I guess they could, but you're talking to the wrong guy when it comes to assessing whether they made mistakes or were capable of making mistakes.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Well, they totally relied on Schmidt and Carey to tell us where to look.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		But I was just going, well, this is just really ironic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, ironic.
		So do you think the sci-fi channel should have said, okey-doke, this looks like a real strong possibility.
		Let's put some camera time and talk time on this, at least because it's so doggone interesting, along with, you know, what we already have done.
		Would you have thought they should have done more with that?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		I probably spent close to an hour being interviewed at that feature.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It just didn't make the cut.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		I guess it just didn't make the cut.
		Now, on top of the irony of finding something that did look like a potential furrow, and when we went back, it was actually the people of my crew who looked at it and pointed out to me that there was a portion of this feature that was there that wasn't eroded.
		And it had the sort of round-bottomed, tapering topography to it that you would think would be created by a round-bottom thing sliding.
		And that left me looking at something that was even longer than 100 feet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, impact.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, compression in impact.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the earth was dented, and erosion had, you know, it created an instability at some point that erosion had started to exploit that instability, as it were.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		And about half of it was eroded, and about half of it was still intact.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll be darned.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		And I've got pictures of that, and it was them that pointed out to me.
		I said, oh, come on, that's not it.
		And then I started looking at it, and you could kind of see subtle differences in the grass growing there, and you could see the subtle depression and all that kind of stuff.
		And our mapping of it was a pretty low-level mapping of it.
		But I saw what they pointed out to me and photographed it.
		And so now we have a feature that was close to at least 200 feet long.
		And there was absolutely no evidence that for, you know, I explored the possibilities, erosional channel we've explored, and it didn't seem to work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That wouldn't sound like that, no.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Because it didn't run down the hill.
		And you just don't get those kinds of features on the hills out there.
		And I thought, okay, how about an old road?
		And I've seen a lot of old roads, including the Camino Real and other things.
		They get grown over, and they become more and more subtle with time.
		But they pretty much, you can always see their trace.
		I couldn't see anything.
		Another thing, old roads generally have ruts.
		The ruts are what a road, and the stuff in the middle pretty much stays intact because nothing bumps it and disturbs it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's for darn sure.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		And I went out, I found old abandoned two-track roads in that area, and sure enough, they were like that.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		They were grown over, but the ruts were there, and the bump in the middle was there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You could see that.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		They were flat-bottomed.
		The uneroded part was kind of round-bottomed, just slightly depressed.
		The eroded part was flat-bottomed.
		It wasn't a road.
		There wasn't any uneroded two-track past it in either direction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you bring back any soil samples or thing samples from that area?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		No, I did bring back one thing which was just piled irony on top of irony.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was that?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I went walking around.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		I said, well, maybe there's some debris around here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, good.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		About 100 yards away from it, I found a weather balloon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, of course I saw that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I saw, well, I'll be whatever it was.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		I was a little, oh, why did I say that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no, it was good.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, the fact of the matter was, they came back and filmed it, and we were actually recreating the discovery in the show.
		But I just kind of fell out of my chair when I found a weather balloon next to what was something that looked like a real furrow to me.
		Imagine yourself, you've been hired to go out there and look for a furrow.
		Maybe you did find one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it fair to say, even though we now know, of course, they identified the weather balloon as not being older than 10 years, so it rules it.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		But That was a wild guess on the part of a National Weather Service person.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Person.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But even so, even so.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		It didn't look 50 years old to me either.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Okay, so right.
		50 years, that would do a lot to a balloon material.
		But even if that had been balloon, had come down right there, it didn't make that 200-foot-long indentation, did it?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Presumably not, for the reasons that we discussed earlier.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I don't know.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		You have to admit, I had a tremendous irony on my hand, that I found a furrow and I found a balloon.
unidentified		They were 100 yards apart.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		That's what makes me think that maybe that's why if they played it down intentionally, that's why.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what I thought they did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And instead, they could have spent the time with that second furrow, which to me sounds eminently possible and certainly as interesting or perhaps more interesting than the area they specifically concentrated on.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Quite possibly, with the following exception.
		I'm not sure if we discussed this earlier or not, but Dave Heineman of Sundelt Geophysics, who did the conductivity survey and the metal detection survey, also did another research project in which he got aerial photography that was taken in 1946.
		That's the closest to before 1947 he could find.
		And aerial photography from 1954 and compared them, thinking that if there was a gouge, it would show up on the 1954 photography, but not on the 1946 photography.
		And he did find a feature right smack about almost exactly where it should be on the 1954 photography, but it was also on the 1946 photography.
		After the project was over and after they had done filming me looking at the Boather balloon and the alternative furrow, I acquired that aerial photography from Mr. Heinman and inspected it myself.
		And I did it using a mirror stereoscope, which the photographs are in pairs that overlap so you can actually see the ground in three dimensions when you use the stereoscope.
		And it magnifies at the same time.
		And I looked on it, and sure enough, there was this feature with the same curvature on the 1954 photography.
		I got pretty excited.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I imagine.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		And then came the true test.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		I got the 1946 photography out, and I laid it on top of the 1954 photography so that I could flip the 46 pictures up and look at the 54, and I registered them, and I could drop the 46 photography back down on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		And then look at the same spot on the ground in 1946.
		There was a feature there in 1946 as well.
		So it kind of took the alternative furrow.
		It's still an anomalous feature.
		The aerial photographs don't show it, even in 1954 or 46, connecting with a road.
		So maybe water can run across hills.
		Maybe there was another UFO crash in 1946.
		Maybe the government in 1947 went and found the 1946 photography and put the date stamp on of November 19, 1946 when it was really November 19, 1947.
		I have to admit, I don't think so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now you're sounding like some of my other guests.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's very interesting.
unidentified		You want to get out there on that limb.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		You won't find me out there.
		But I have to admit, I got pretty excited when I found this thing on the 54th power.
		A little bit disappointed when I found it on the 46th.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is pretty intriguing stuff.
		The whole thing is really intriguing.
		And I would imagine that as projects go in the life of an archaeologist, this probably had to be for you one of the more interesting in some ways, in certain ways.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, most definitely.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Very unusual, very challenging.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were you intrigued enough with all of this?
		You know, obviously you were to go back because you did go back on your own.
		But are you going to do any more follow-up on any of it?
		Where's your head now?
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		I think that we haven't resolved all the questions about that particular location.
		It certainly raises the question of were we in the right place?
		If you go and look at the literature, the little that I've done, there's a fair amount of controversy about exactly where the right place is.
		In the 1994 Randall and Schmidt book, The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell, which is an update of their 1990 book, there's a photograph that says this is the debris field.
		And I thought, well, if we're in the same place, I should be able to find that.
		And in fact, I finally found there's a little, they had marked things, or somebody marked things with a rock pile.
		I found that rock pile.
		I recreated the photograph.
		And so that helped convince me that we were at least in the same place that they said it was in 1994.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, even if you were close, you may have recovered some debris.
		Listen, our time is up.
		You promised me two hours.
		You gave me a really good two hours.
		You need to rest.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		I am just bone tired.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I want to really thank you for being here tonight, and it's been absolutely intriguing.
		We learned a lot we didn't see on the show.
		And thank you very much.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		All righty.
bill doleman ▲ ● ▼		Well, good night, and good morning to everybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Dr. Dolman.
		Dr. Bill Dolman, William Dolman, from the University of New Mexico.
		You heard a few things I'd say that you didn't see on the show last night.
		There's more ahead.
		More about Roswell.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		The inside, the sound, the smell, the touch of something inside that we need so much.
		The sight of the touch.
		The strength of the touch deep in the grass.
		So much files to be covered and then to burst up, to farm out the sun again, or to fly to the sun without burning a wing, to lie in the meadow and hear the burst of singing.
		All these things in our memories more Than the usual To come Yeah Why Why would you go With this baby Of this dream Just for me
		Why They could be right In the place Of my feet It's more great Why would you go To the same thing for years With my heart To do it by fears And to end my life All my rest But by now I know I can't wait For now I can't wait
		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time, tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from November 22nd, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wasn't Dr. Dorman interesting, very, very interesting, the archaeologist on the sci-fi show tonight.
		Now, again, the best part of the sci-fi show was the end in terms of something that was extremely, in my opinion, extremely profound.
		It was that picture of General Raimi right in the middle of all this.
		Now, I got the following from Jordan in Tampa Bay, Florida.
		Jordan says, you know, why would the guy in the picture, he's talking about General Raimi, why would the guy in the picture hold a top-secret communique exposing, in quotes, the truth?
		I don't think so.
		Well, Jordan, I'm sorry, but there is no question about who that was.
		We know it was General Raimi with the dispatch in his hand, and it was Colonel Thomas DuBose, his chief of staff, immediately next to him.
		Right in the middle of all this, we know exactly who they are, Jordan.
		And so I think it's obvious.
		I think we've been lied to.
		And I think it's a big lie.
		It's not a little lie.
		It's a really, really big lie.
		It's not a lie about Mogul.
unidentified		It's a big, big, much bigger lie.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		and I think this is the evidence.
		They have deciphered what was Not from that photograph.
		Although, Magnified, there are a few words available.
		They did this with computer analysis and a very good computer analysis.
		A research scientist named Dr. Rodiak did it.
		And that man, that general, General Ramey, was holding a dispatch that said, and I'm quoting here, Port Worth Army Airfield acknowledges that a disc, in quotes, is the next new find west of the cordon.
		And the victims of the wreck, you were victims of the wreck.
		You forwarded to the team at Fort Worth, Texas, the aviators in the disc shipped by a B-29 Special Transport or C-47.
		It was in his hand.
		And the words, and the victims of the wreck, and the words, in the disc, they will ship.
unidentified		Now, listen to me, folks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what the message in General Raimi's hand says.
		So, to me, that's a big lie.
		That's not a mogul lie.
		That's a really big lie.
		Coming up in a moment, we'll get another perspective.
		Bill McDonald is going to come on the program, and he wrote me a very interesting email.
		He wrote, our due to the program that Don Schmidt is doing with his hi-fi channel in the interview with the archaeologist that you've got scheduled for tomorrow, he wrote this yesterday.
		I'd like to request the privilege of taking you on a guided tour of the interior crew cabin, the exterior hull, the interface between the flight crew and the spacecraft.
		Her life support system was an oxygenated fluid, and her outer skin was the engine, magneto-aeroelectrodynamics.
		I'll discuss the connection to Skunk Works.
		CEOs Kelly Johnson and Ben Rich, CIC agent Frank Kaufman, John Edwards.
		These words of the Tester Corporation and the Wright-Patterson Documents Officer and his air intelligence boss, a possible murder might even be connected to the Wright-Path officer.
		I was the last person to work with Len Springfield during the week of his death, December of 1994.
		I currently consult with Dr. Hal Putoff, Dr. Eric Davis, and Dr. Bob Wood.
		Witness Al Lord Jr. observed that Kelly Johnson had drawings, drawings of the Roswell spacecraft on his drafting table in his Burbank office in 1954.
		They were identical to the general composite that I rendered from all surviving witnesses in 1995, the ones that we used for the tester model, the tester model.
		So in a moment, Bill McDonald.
unidentified		Bill McDonald.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, a little bit about Bill.
		Bill McDonald's educational background is in the fields of military aviation via the USMC, United States Marine Corps, forensic anthropology as an artist.
		His work experience was as an undercover private investigator for over 12 years, working for private agencies, liaison with major metropolitan police departments, federal agencies, and the military.
		Meanwhile, he was a position technical, scientific, and commercial illustrator who fell into forensics as far back as high school.
		McDonald received his BA degree from Cal State Fullerton in criminal justice.
		He specializes in using correct investigative methods to conduct interviews with key specific witnesses in both criminal and paranormal cases and the correct forensic procedures for rendering composite illustrations based on physical evidence and or cooperated testimonies that can be used for legal inquest, commercial media, or paranormal and UFO-related case research.
		He was an undercover private investigator with the Pellinks Agency and commercial illustrator for 12 years while currently serving in the Marines, then later with the California Army National Guard.
		He spent two more years with the W.E. Holland and Associates, the Emerald Group, and undercover as an undercover private investigator.
		So he's a very interesting character, and he promises to take us on sort of a virtual tour of the spacecraft that may have crashed at Roswell.
		Or in view of the evidence presented toward the end of the program, the text message, would you have to say what in fact did crash at Roswell?
		At any rate, here he is.
		Welcome to the show.
		Great to have you, Bill.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Art.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		It's wonderful to be here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you now, by the way?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		I am in Mesa, Arizona.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mesa, Arizona.
		All right.
		All right.
		How in the world, Bill, can you promise to take us on sort of a virtual tour of what you believe that craft was?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		How can you do that?
		It's actually a process of compositing of witness testimony, and I have to give credit to where credit is due.
		Evan Randall and Don Schmidt, back when they were still partners before the big fallout, when they were writing the book together, allowed me to interview their witnesses to work the case from the inside out.
		In other words, they, Stan Friedman, Carl Flock, Cliff Stone, and Kent Jeffries, were all working the case from the point of view of the witnesses, their backgrounds, the veracity of their statements, you know, the whole thing.
		But nobody had focused on the spacecraft and the bodies with the exceptional and string field.
		Nobody had done that.
		More importantly, nobody had surveyed all the witnesses that were still alive and able to talk to see if their descriptions of the vehicles that they claimed to see and their descriptions of the bodies, whether they would match or whether they would be in conflict.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, you told me earlier that you only saw the first, oh, I don't know, three-quarters of the program because you had to do some work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In fact, I'm yanking you out of your normal work assignment tonight to be here, right?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Right off the job.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, right.
		So you only saw about three quarters of it.
		But, you know, they did interview a long line of witnesses and people who said he was dying.
		He was in the terminal stage when he finally told me.
		I mean, there was some extremely, other than the physical evidence, it was a big wower at the end, there was some extremely compelling testimony.
		No question about that.
		People who are at the end of their life, they're at the end of their life.
		You know, they're looking at death pretty soon.
		Not that we're all that far from it, but they're pretty near.
		You know, the White Hares, I think one of them referred to himself as.
		And even Stanton has said that we're in a race with the Undertaker on all of this.
		And I thought some of those were incredible statements.
		What about you?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Most of the material that I got was received either by me personally or by Kevin or Don or by other researchers that we have had association with when they were sick, when they were dying.
		Now there's been some people that said that Frank Kaufman lied and that Frank Kaufman made up this and that.
		Don Schmidt got to spend a lot of time with him when he was in his last days and I could not because my wife was very sick.
		She had multiple miscarriages and we had another pregnancy and it was really difficult.
		So I could only call in by telephone every now and then.
		But Frank Kaufman had terrible cancer that was octopusing its way from his prostate through his liver, pancreas, you know, just about every painful kind of cancer.
		And in the end, he was refusing all medication.
		He was hanging on to his pain as the only thing he had to hang on to regarding life.
		And not once did his story waver or change.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, it's a brave way to die anyway.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Well, he was a tough old guy.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, anyway, it's not a real likely moment for lies.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Never.
		And Len Stringfield, sharing his information with me, literally in the last four days of his life, my last conversation with him was eight hours before he passed away from lung cancer.
		He was also in pain.
		His wife and son tried to take the phone away from him, but he still talked to me.
		And he shared all of his data on the anatomy of the flight crew and a little bit that he had on the spacecraft so I could use it as a baseline to test the honesty of the other witnesses.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, stop right there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, if anybody did that eight hours before his death and told you about the creatures inside, then I want to hear about that first.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Lay it on me.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		The flight crew were not the little gray aliens that the abductees talk about.
		The flight crew looked like little first-grade children that were utterly hairless Except for tiny amounts of peach fuzz in different locations.
		Their skin was like the tiny, tiny beaded scales that you see in the armpit of a baby iguana.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		These are all his words.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Identical to the albino geckos that you see out in Hawaii.
		They were tiny beaded scales.
		The skin itself was not semi-permeable tissue like ours.
		It was like a synthetic screen mesh when you looked at it microscopically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like a synthetic screen mesh.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they could not hold fluids in nor germs out.
		And that's critical to what I'm going to be telling you in the next few minutes.
		Their eyes were not the big black eyes.
		They were Asian-shaped eyes with a white sclera, a brown iris, and pupils not unlike the eyes of Filipino or Mongolian children.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're telling me you got all this detail in the last eight hours of this man's life?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		I got it over the last four days.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Our last conversation ended in the last eight hours of his life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That kind of detail.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		That kind of detail.
		And Kevin Randall got some of it too and put it in chapter 10 of the book that's been mentioned several times tonight.
		The truth about the UFO crash at Roswell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Only you, only you can be a judge of the man's demeanor.
		I mean, you were talking to him.
		You were listening to his voice on the other end.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Well, Len's witnesses were three Army physicians whose identity he took to the grave.
		I mean, Stan Friedman wanted to get their identity, as did a lot of people.
		But Len's last words were about honor.
		It was about keeping promises, and it was about being remembered.
		He was afraid that someday people would forget about him, and I swore to him, never.
		We will never forget Len Stringfield and what he did.
		Ever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why did he decide to speak, particularly in this kind of dramatic detail?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Len Stringfield was an Army intelligence officer in a C-47 Skytrain over Iwo Jima just after the battle in World War II when three silvery glowing Foo fighters buzzed the plane.
		He was obsessed with UFO research ever since.
		And of course, you know, he was contemporary with Stanton Friedman.
		In fact, you know, he was the master that everybody sat at their feet.
		He was contemporary with MJ Alan Hinek, contemporary with Dr. Jacques Valley.
		And the body of his work, which is in the possession of his family and his close associates, speaks for itself.
		I mean, everybody knows who Len Stringfeld is.
		He was just basically the god of all researchers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But there are things that you can tell about a person's voice when they're talking to you, when they're telling you something.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's the profound truth, the tone.
		Because the Reaper's 15 minutes away.
		They can practically see the face of God.
		Most people, Art, no matter what their national security oaths might have been, never lie at the time of death.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		knew he was dying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There was no...
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		The lung cancer had been killing him for a long time.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		And lung cancer art is one of the most painful ways to go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I'm reminded frequently, yes.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		In fact, all of these guys get cancer, and that is scary.
		John Andrews died of cancer.
		Ben Witch died of cancer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, there is another story there that a lot of researchers I know have been afraid to explore publicly, and I really don't want to explore it myself right now without.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		We lost Dr. Carla Turner, who was a very close friend of mine to liver cancer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		She was supposed to dance at my wedding, and we lost her just.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know there are many more, many more suffering cancers.
		Dr. Greer, Dr. Greer's assistant, now passed on.
		I mean, I could go on and on and on and on, and there may be a story there, but I don't want to try putting that one together until we've got statistical evidence that just bulges out and hits you in the eye.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Scares the bejeebers out of me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, I understand.
		So he gave you a long-form tour.
		I mean, the story is that two of them were alive, at least one of them.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Actually, I believe that five of them were dead.
		There were seven seats in the ship, but only five bodies recovered, which is why I don't land base Don Schmidt if he says that the Brazils found two more bodies out on the range.
		There were two bodies missing, and the ship was so tiny that, like I told Hal, put off today.
		There's no way you can trim that craft unless all the seats were filled.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, it would require a very precise balance.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and its ballast was the fluid that was also its life support system because she was ultra-light.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Four guys yanked her out of the cliff and dragged her down to the flatbed truck.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This was the final resting place of the crash itself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, the program suggested that it was actually largely intact.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		There wasn't much debris for the archaeologists to find because except for a debris plug from the upper left-hand dorsal portion of the vehicle, which occurred over the Corona Ranch, which is now owned by Stuart Vogel.
		Yes.
		And she hit the ground there.
		And I'll have to explain to you a little bit about field propulsion because you can have a mass at infinity and a weightless weight and a weight of zero.
		So it was like having a bulldozer fall out of the sky and hit the ground, even though the ship herself was made out of ultra-lightweight ceramics, metals, and crystalline composites.
		And then she skipped into Boggin to cross the hilltops, which is where you get some of those other scuffs that Don Schmidt and those guys were talking about, until she hit at the McKnight Ridgeway property, which we now know.
		And my belief is that it did hit at Hubcorn's Ranch, and there's a mark in the cliff that I can pretty much identify as a spider web striation that is not consistent with the Erosion, the natural erosion of the rest of the cliff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bill, hold it right there.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		Bill McDonald is my guest as the discussion about Roswell and what happened there continues with some pretty close to smoking gun evidence lighting the way.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks tonight and on your presentation of Coast to Coast AM from November 22nd, 2002.
		Thank you.
		Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight's program originally aired November 22nd, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If it was a little bit of balsa wood and aluminum foil, would the general's message have said Fort Worth Army Airfield acknowledges that a disc is the next new find west of the Cordon.
		And the victims of the wreck you forwarded to the team at Fort Worth, Texas, the aviators in the disc shipped by a B-29 Serial Transporter C-47, the words, and the victims of the wreck in the disc they will ship.
		Does that sound like a weather balloon to you?
unidentified		sad music
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here's Bill McDonald.
		Well, those words uttered over that period of time in those conversations regarding the creatures already, that's really fascinating stuff, Bill.
		It's like I want to know everything he said.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's not just him, it's Frank Kaufman, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		They all, my work is a composite of what all the witnesses agree to.
		Three of the flight crew members, which would be like mission specialists, if you use the NASA analogy, had opposable thumbs, normal five-fingered hands, even though proportions were slightly different.
		Two, which were like the pilots, had four fingers with no opposable thumbs.
		Like as if one was operating the vessel by a combination touch pad on the console that wrapped around him on the port side of the most forward seat in the crew cabin.
		And the starboard pilot had a joystick that fit snugly into his four-fingered hand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're getting this kind of incredible detail, not from one, but from several witnesses?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		This is a total composite of a minimum of five witnesses.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, the question I have is how much of it matches?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, I understand it's a composite, but is it in any way an overlapping composite?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		What amazes me is the lack of conflict in the witnesses' stories.
unidentified		Really?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		That's why when all these guys go off into all this monkey of business about, well, this witness said that, and that can't be right, and this can't be right, and that can't be right, I found a way to cut through all the malarkey, and it was real simple.
		Either they described the same ship and the same bodies, or they didn't.
		Either they met the burden of proof that was established by Len Stringfield's testimony from his three Army physicians, or it didn't.
		And it did.
		And, you know, that's the bottom line.
		It's like with the Wright-Patterson witness.
		I'm still trying to figure out whether he's really the witness or the guy that murdered the witness and took the story.
		Either way, he has a boss who's 87 years old that also confirms a story, who's a retired general living up in Wyoming, and he also describes the exact same thing.
		So what am I supposed to do as a detective?
		I mean, you have this body of information.
		It's sifting together and dovetailing nicely.
		And these people can't all be connected to each other.
		And they sure as heck can't be connected to the skunk works people.
		And yet the descriptions of the spacecraft are the same.
		And for the fewer people that saw the bodies, the descriptions are similar enough that they fall within the pattern of believability that we as detectives accept in the end.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you believe, based on what you know, that they were all dead?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		It is my opinion that they were all dead.
		However, you know, I wasn't there.
		There's going to be a lot of people who are going to disagree with that.
		But I believe they were all dead, and that's based on the physiology and it's based on the life support system of the craft.
		They could not live in our air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do we know about their requirements?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		The requirements, if you go back to the skin, it was unable to hold fluids and it was unable to keep germs out.
		They needed to be maintained in a sterile amniotic fluid type oxygenated broth.
		That broth could not be loaded with water or other heavy fluids because there would have been evidence of it found inside the cabin.
		It was bone dry.
		There are fluids that evaporate very fast.
		They're called fluorocarbons.
		And I can think of one that I used all the time on F-18s in the Marine Corps called trifluoroethane.
		You could load up a bucket with That stuff, and in a few hours, it's evaporated away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do we think we know so much about the atmosphere required?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do we know this?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Again, you look at their skin and you look at the engineering of the vehicle.
		That vehicle was without ballast when that was found.
		The skin of these beings could not hold their body fluids inside them.
		If they had walked around outside, they would have been leaking all out through their little flight suits and everything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		I'm talking, you know, rapid and immediate dehydration.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		And the decomposition.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It would be like us going to a planet and exploding, sort of.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Well, what I believe is that they were synthetically bred to interface with the spacecraft and that they come from the Hive Society that bred them specifically for that environment.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		The ship was designed for reconnaissance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you think then these beings, we'll call them, were designed for this specific purpose by other intelligences?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		That is my opinion based on studying this for years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they were biological drones?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but they were not subservient to the artificial cortex of the ship.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		They were multiple brain nodes that added to the processing capability of the ship and the crew as a unified organism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		These are concepts that I don't think they could have even considered or imagined in 1947.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		That's part of the reason why I believe what these guys were saying, because they're not making up sci-fi stuff.
		They were describing in terms that they could barely understand.
		It's like General Ramey holding that piece of paper in his hand while posing for the photos.
		He couldn't even conceive of our ability to image process film in the 21st century.
		He probably figured that film emulsion, as it was then, was state-of-the-art and that nobody would ever be able to make out what's on that piece of paper.
		He probably didn't even think about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure that's what he thought.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I'm also sure that when these photographs were published, for example, in newspapers, where you have dot matrix printing.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They would have taken a look at the photograph and they wouldn't have thought about it even for one second because even the figures would have been somewhat blurry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Forget.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		There's no way to reconstruct from halftones.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		That's right.
		That's exactly right.
		You would have to have the unadulterated original, which I guess they got.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Well, we interviewed J. Bond Johnson, my wife and I, in Mission VO, California back around 2000 when he had the latest photo prints that he'd gotten from his original negatives that were in the custody of Texas A ⁇ M University.
		And I looked at those photos very carefully, and, you know, with what I had on hand, I really wasn't able to resolve that.
		But Don Schmidt gave a presentation at the Magic Castle in Hollywood later that year, and he was already involved with trying to resolve those images.
		And then tonight I saw that other guy who I assume worked with Don Schmidt on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was Dr. Rodiak.
		Yeah.
		Yeah, absolutely.
		I mean, this is incredible stuff.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		He has the money, he has the software and the equipment to resolve it.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Stuff that General Ramey couldn't even have conceived of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if these words are real, or even if only a portion of them are real, then the whole damn thing's a lie.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
		And none of those words conflicts with any of the information I have.
		None.
		Therefore, I am completely satisfied, like you, that this could be the big lie.
		This could be the smoking gun that you have been so poignant about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tell me what else you think you know, or you know that you know, either with regard to the beings or the ship.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Oh, this is going to blow your mind.
		Imagine a wave rider, you know, high-speed atmospheric skiff that is a wave rider.
		And she has a body style reminiscent of certain species of cetaceans.
		What are dolphins and whales?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you mean by a wave rider?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		A wave rider is a high-altitude, high-speed flying wing that's designed to slam through the atmosphere at high speed, riding its own shockwave to conserve fuel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
		Gotcha.
		That I understand.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		We call those wave riders.
		And Skunk Works and Phantomworks and some of the European consortiums are real heavy into that.
		For instance, look at VentureStar and the next generation, a Lockheed Martin shuttles.
		These are wave rider concepts.
		Look at the TR-7 that Ben Rich leaked to John Andrews and it came out as an actual model kit back in the early 90s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In fact, folks, if you will go to my website and look under tonight's guest info and look under Bill's name, William Lewis McDonald Sr.'s name, you will see the Roswell ship herself in detail.
		Click on that and look at some of the drawings that are available.
		I guess you can buy these.
		Is this shape, this skip shape, is this the wave rider shape?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Frankly, I think it's the holy grail of all terrestrial designed wave riders.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, that holy grail, you know, I saw, and I'm sorry, folks, I can't remember.
		It might be the Aurora.
		It might be something else.
		I recently saw that we are, it is said, to be testing right now, probably near me here in the desert, which looks almost exactly like this.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Exactly my point.
		Exactly.
		But Aurora is three planes, and they all have various characteristics of the Roswell craft.
		As did the old A-12 design once they put in the chinese that made it the SR-71.
		As did some of the other planes that are only now being released, some of the stealth slash high-altitude spy plane concepts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in extreme high transit of the upper atmosphere, you are forced, really, to a certain kind of specific design, aren't you?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		You have to be the cross between a surfboard and a dart in order to transition the upper atmosphere efficiently.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		That's why I call it an aero surf concept.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And one thing we all know for sure is, as you look at this, we sure didn't have any of these in 1947.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Exactly my point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That doesn't mean someone else or something else didn't have it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then it would have been designed to work within the atmosphere, which means that this craft and its occupants were within our atmosphere for a specific reason.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Not only that, but it was a transatmospheric vehicle.
		It was able to go from a vacuum to an atmosphere, to a hydrosphere, back to an atmosphere, and then back into space.
		In other words, the Roswell ship could dive into the ocean and fly out again, just like the flying submarine from voyage to the bottom of the sea.
		And its propulsion was magneto-aeroelectrodynamics, which if you remember Stan Friedman on your show not too long ago talking about magneto aerodynamics is what he called it.
		Magnetohydrodynamics, which is already being tested underwater with all kinds of secret submarines.
		They've been doing it for over 20 years.
		And then as Hal Putoff and I, and Dr. Eric Davis and I have discussed over and over and again, that it probably, once outside of the gravity well of a planet, would switch to something more in line with zero-point energy.
		And she also had those power cells on the belly.
		If you notice in my drawings that she has these power cells on the belly.
		And those power cells would allow her to access and amplify the magnetic field of the Earth, allowing for controlled manipulation of electromagnetic fields, allowing her to levitate at low or slow speeds or no speeds if she wanted to go into a hover mode.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do we imagine what her mission was with regard to the design?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Reconnaissance.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		There was no room for cargo, only life support.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Reconnaissance.
		Well, now let's think for a second.
		What would be worth a reconnaissance effort by an alien race in 1947?
unidentified		Boom.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Think about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me think about that.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Think of a big boom.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		509th Bomb Group.
		Let's see.
		What were they doing?
		Gee, they were the people who dropped the first atomic bomb.
		Now, would an alien race be interested in who dropped the first atomic bomb?
		No, they just might.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		I'm thinking interstellar smoke staples.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They just might be really interested in that.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		It would be like if we were the French and Americans and some of these little Arab oases during World War I and one of these tribes suddenly had a weapon of mass destruction, would we be concerned?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know.
		I mean, look at Saddam right now and use the same term, weapons of mass destruction.
		Are we concerned?
		Hmm, we're getting ready to send our young men and women over to die because we're so concerned.
		Hell yeah, we're concerned.
		And so if you imagine an alien race, this would be like a great big marker in human evolution and whatever, if you want to call this forward evolution, at the moment of the bomb.
		Oh my, that'd be of high interest.
		High interest.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		And they were doing a lot of testing and a lot of preparation for testing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, they could have come down in Russia, China.
		They could have come down in the Middle East.
		Then we'd have, I'm sure, had stories from the Middle East that would have religious stuff attached to them about all of this.
		But no.
		Of all the places on the entire Earth they came down, they came down real near the 509th bomb group.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		And not just there.
		They were tracked on radar for four days prior.
		Alamogordo, Los Alamos, Kirkland, Roswell.
		It was multiple bogies that were flitting around the radar scopes like fireflies for 72 hours prior to the Roswell ship.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what kind of evidence do we have of that?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		The testimony of the United States Army Counterintelligence Corps personnel, specifically Frank Kaufman, who was ordered to ride a radar set for 24 of those hours, hopefully to triangulate the location of one of them.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		They were hoping for a capture.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You don't suppose, Bill, do you, that there's any chance that we shot one of these damn things down?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		It's possible, but as my father, who's a top government scientist retired and several other people have said, the projectile weapons and the missiles that we had in those days, they would have seen the shell coming from a long distance away, and the Roswell ship was agile enough that she could have just flitted to the side and then missed, just sidestepped slightly the incoming round.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but you know, there's a golden BB thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, in Vietnam, on occasion, you know, some little farmer in the middle of a rice field somewhere with a single rifle would point at an F-14, and by God, every now and then, he'd put around in just the right place, and one of those Tomcats would come screaming.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		That's true, they brought down an F-8 Crusader that way.
		That's right.
		It's possible, but, you know, the witnesses, the lightning storm, I think it was an upstroke of lightning myself, because I think that, you know, God and nature can humble anybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very large one, to get hit by lightning, huh?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Well, you have to remember this ship was built in layers that was like living tissues.
		And for that upper left-hand dorsal side to shatter into that gas shape in the layers that it did, It had to be an immense power overload that literally would have shattered the molecules of these incredible layers of metals and metal and composites.
		So the only thing I'm thinking of is lightning.
		I don't think there was a weapon on Earth that could do that kind of damage to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Except the one from Mother Nature.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		You know, Ultimate God and Mother Nature are the last word in everything as far as I'm concerned.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the ship was sort of almost like a living thing.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		She had, you know, you heard about those little wafers with those little flower designs and stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		I think microprocessors designed three-dimensionally to mimic the function, structure, and form of neuroganglia tissue that's at least as sophisticated as what you would find in fish like a stingray, possibly even as sophisticated as a primate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bill, hold it right there.
		We're at the top of the hour and we'll be right back from the high desert.
		It's all about Roswell tonight and for good reason.
		I'm Art Bell.
		As the saying goes, don't touch that dial.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from November 22, 2002.
		Music Once upon a time, once when you were alive, I remember in your life.
		I'm going to go.
		You will come home when the button hit the bone.
		You will come when the button hits the bone.
		I'm falling down the spiral, destination unknown.
		Double drop messenger, all alone.
		Can't get no connection, can't get through.
		Where are you?
		Well connected with having all the other men.
		Head far from the borderline.
		Knows damn well he has been cheated.
		And here it is.
		And I'm stepping into the twilight zone.
		They're in the madhouse.
		See if I keep going.
		I'll be the same move.
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		And I know I'll ever go.
		But you were gone.
		No.
		And I'm born and born.
		Thank you.
		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an oncore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from November 22nd, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Unfortunately, in ufology, a lot of times the only way you've known, you know for sure you've gone too far is when the bullet hits bone.
		Maybe not the lead bullets.
		But you know, like the cancer bullets or some kind of bullet hits bone.
		That's how you know.
		We've been talking about people who are close to death and dying and what they've said and what we know tonight.
		We're talking about Roswell.
		Bill McDonald is here and he'll be right back.
		Once again, Bill McDonald, as I said, Bill, we've been talking about people close to death and or dying before he died.
		I was blessed to have given Colonel Corso, Colonel Philip Corso, I did several really, really incredibly intense interviews with Colonel Corso.
		And as you know, Colonel Corso was in receipt of a lot of materials that were later then transferred, he said, in fact by himself, to private industry that made a lot of the things that we regard as very common today, pieces of technology that ended up becoming products that we use every day now.
		And I, you know, in talking to the colonel for hours, I absolutely, positively came away with the feeling this man was telling the dead straight truth.
		And that's just the way he came across.
		And that's been my only experience with judging a man and his voice and knowing where he was in his life.
		He knew he was at the end of his life.
		He knew pretty much he was at the end of his life.
unidentified		And I do also was one of my sources, Art.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		He approved everything I did.
		He went into a lot of details regarding his nut file.
		And he went into a lot of details regarding the shape of the craft and the description of the bodies.
		And the only conflict was his bodies had little headbands, and none of the other witnesses described those at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's not much of a conflict, all of that.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		That's not much of a conflict.
		It's a significant thing, and I've got to be honest, and I've got to point it out, but Colonel Corso confirmed the overall configuration of the spacecraft and the type of equipment that was pulled out of the layers of the hull.
		And he described in his books very carefully what their functions were.
		And he approved of, and I believe that when he was on the show with you, he even mentioned some of the work that I've done.
		And it was an honor to be able to interview him both in Roswell and over the phone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I felt the same way.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		And he kind of took charge of things, and I Lost contact with him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so did everybody else.
		But while we had Colonel Corso, there was no mistaking the earnest nature of what he said, the straightforward what he said.
		I mean, I ought to have him replay one of those interviews so everybody could hear it.
		You know, it's been years now, but there's no question.
		That was a truth coming from this man.
		He absolutely, totally believed it all the way.
		I guarantee.
		After that many hours, I guarantee you.
		Absolutely.
		All right.
		I understand that you believe that aliens are here, that there are alien species, multiple alien species here, and that they are, in effect, ranching, harvesting.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Culling my exact words.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Culling, yes, your exact words, what they need from targeted human populations around the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's talk about that a little bit.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		That's the Oasis Earth hypothesis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, what are they doing and why?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		If you look at the local space, it's mostly an empty, voided desert except for that zero-point energy that Howell's looking for.
		And it's got a lot of red dwarfs in it, some white dwarfs, some brown stars, and a few yellow suns that probably have Earth-like worlds surrounding them.
		And if you remember that space map that Betty Hill drew and Dan Friedman investigated with his team, that tends to lend credence, especially since she drew the map and then years later they discovered the star combination.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		And so Earth-like worlds where you have liquid water and vast mineral deposits and compatible DNA are few and far between, which makes the Earth and other planets like it a highly strategically valuable oasis.
		And after culling all this information for 11 years through the UFO community, I mean I've been at it since 1992 and 1991, I've come to the conclusion that we're being ranched.
		And the analogy is exactly like what the old cattle barrens of North American Australia were like back in the 1800s.
		And occasionally you have factions that have multiple species within and factions that are homogeneous and species-specific.
		And they target specific populations, especially in countries where the genetic pool is very mixed, and that they harvest DNA along with boron, beryllium, manganese, and other exotic minerals that they need to replicate their vehicles which are artificially intelligent and are at an equal capacity on par with the users, which are the organic entities involved, the occupants.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, but what are they harvesting from those enemies?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Frog DNA.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Remember the old analogy from Jurassic Park where they took frog DNA to fill in the gaps?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what they're doing with themselves, because a lot of these species have probably been selected by nature for extinction, and they're keeping themselves going longer while they build, you know, I believe they're building hybrid races to inherit their agendas and their vast technologies and all the neat little hand-me-downs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they're really doing God's work, aren't they?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		They're doing their work as a hive society or a hive culture could be expected to do.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Multiple.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And how long do you think that's been going on?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you look at the fossil record in art, I maintain a timeline of human history going back 33 million years.
		It's a Microsoft Word document.
		It's huge.
		In fact, my wife is nuts over the time I spend on this thing.
		But if you look at about 140,000 years ago, you see the quantum leaps that Homo sapiens sapiens made.
		And you can actually follow Homo sapiens sapiens in its trek from Africa to Asia along the seacoast, and then, you know, the colonization of Asia, and then the pushing back through Eurasia, and finally into Europe, where the sister species all are, which are basically 100% human.
		But we are different enough from our robust compaged species, meaning Homo erectus in all of its various subspecies, and there were a lot of them, Homo meandotolensis, of course, and Homo rudolfensis and some of the others,
		that around 140,000 years ago, and perhaps again 60,000 years ago, there were subtle adjustments made in the DNA that probably made it absolutely compatible for being donor DNA.
		And you've had a lot of guests on here who've talked about the same kind of thing, but I'm telling you that my quiet, careful research and in going through all of the vast amount of anthropological literature and paleoanthropological material that is out there,
		even through National Geographic and all the textbooks and everything like that, when you start laying out a timeline by the years and then once we get into recorded history by the months, years, dates, et cetera, like that, in chronological order, you can actually see the locations where this could have occurred.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If this kind of harvesting or farming, if you want to use that term, kind of obnoxious when you apply it to ourselves, but if this kind of farming is going on, then there's got to be some kind of connection to the endless mystery of,
art bell ▲ ● ▼		for example, animal mutilations, cow mutilations specifically, and they've just never, ever come up with anything to answer these completely bizarre things dropped out of mid-air, gutted in ways that, I mean, it's just got to be somehow connected.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		For the most part, I think that's us.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		I've had access to certain studies, and I'm not really allowed to say who they are, but in a nutshell, Red China's been doing a lot of research into creating multi-generational viruses that die off after a certain period of time that would go after our livestock and our grain and our harvestable resources.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I can go along with that, but why?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		We are doing it back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They don't need our cows.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		No, no, you don't understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We don't need our cows.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		We want to wipe out our armies, just eliminate the food, and our populations will be down in a month.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		If we go after our grain, our corn, our cattle, and our pigs and our chickens, the grocery stores are going to be awful bare awful quick.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's for sure.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		And I believe that there is vast amounts of money being illegally spent on ways to do biological warfare against agriculture on both sides.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Red China and us, they are themselves a bit of a hive society, and they are the most dangerous people on earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They are, in a way.
		But you know what?
		It doesn't have to be carried out on farmers' cows in the middle of the field.
		Cattle of nowhere.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Sheep and pigs are biologically very similar to humans.
		And you can prognosticate 99% of everything related to diseases and the courses of diseases, their trajectory of diseases, the morphologies of diseases.
		If it goes a certain way on a cow or a sheep, especially a sheep or a pig, pigs are really the closest other than chimpanzees and bonobos.
		And there's just not enough of them to go around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, gee, Bill, of whom should I show more fear?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		These alien creatures who are farming us or our own governments that are trying to figure out new and enhanced ways to kill us all?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		I think that our own people are far more twisted than any of these species that are ranching us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That could be.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Because I think that there's far more casualties from them than there is from the alien presence here on Earth.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		I find that the Oasis Earth hypothesis, all of these multiple species factions have demonstrated one thing, and it's something that every smart cattle rancher knows.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they don't want to stampede us?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		They don't want to panic us.
		They don't want to stress us.
		They don't want to drive us into sociological or any kind of cultural meltdown because then we're less healthy.
		Our DNA is less harvestable.
		There's more diseases.
		And it's a whole lot more work for them.
		So they're not going to land on the White House lawn and they are not going to kidnap the president.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but I'm still beginning to feel like I'm beginning to feel like a fattening turkey.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		You know, any cattle rancher will tell you you don't chase your cows with helicopters or jeeps.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		You go in with horses.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		And that's what the scenario is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, even all that said, I'm beginning to feel like a fattening turkey with a sense to realize what's happening, if all that's true.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		I can't argue with you on that.
		You're absolutely right, in my opinion.
		That's my opinion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, where is this going?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Has it gone as far as it's going to go?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		It really depends on when the extinction point for each faction is.
		Remember, it's not a unified council out there.
		You've got different factions that are like tribes of Bedouins.
		They're just way more advanced than us.
		And they're out there looking after their own interests and their own survival.
		They've got their own motherships.
		They've got their own raw resources for minerals.
		But they need us for liquid water and DNA in this sector of space.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, interestingly, though, we are, Bill, beginning to poison ourselves.
		We are beginning to change the weather.
		We're beginning to change our reproductive capabilities.
		California right now is experiencing a rash of autism that you just will blow your mind if you look into it.
		I mean, we're beginning to hurt our own DNA, in my opinion.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		If we destroy ourselves, we take them with us, and I think they know that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then, do you think they would intervene, perhaps as they were trying to find out what was going on near the 509th?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Subtly, they would intervene even today with some of the different types of UFO objections that people are having.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		But then we've got our own guys abducting people that have already been abducted just in order to figure out what the hell these other guys are doing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, there were some pretty interesting stories of UFOs.
		I mean, these are not just stories.
		These are confirmed matters that hovered over missile silos in the United States and began shutting them down.
		That's a fact.
		That happened.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		And they were doing it in Russia, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're damn right, they did.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Cabustin Yard, 1986.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know about it.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		You better believe it.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		I've got it all on my timeline.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's all there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you tell the audience what happened in Russia as much as you know of it?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		It's the same thing that happened at Mammstrom Air Force Base and what happened at Loring Air Force Base, and there was another Air Force base also that this happened to in the United States, the 1960s and in the 1970s.
		Capustin Yar, it happened in both 1986 and in 1989, which incidentally is at the exact same time that we had these vast UFO sightings over Belgium.
		And Belgium is another subject for another night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But what did happen in Russia exactly?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		These UFOs come in, either one or more than one, and they hover, and we call them fast walkers and slow walkers, depending on whether they're moving fast at high altitude or slow walkers, which means they're hovering near the ground.
		And these slow walkers come in and they hover near these missiles.
		And all of a sudden, the programming on the missiles, the code, the base codes start to change and adjust through some kind of Transmitted message.
		They go haywire.
		And sometimes the launch codes will trip and the missile will start to fire itself up.
		So then they've got to pull the plugs manually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That actually happened, didn't it, in Russia?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		In Russia and also in the United States.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They actually went into launch sequence in Russia, is what I was telling you.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		And they had to go in there and literally pull the cables from them to get them to shut down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you wanted to send a message to somebody with weapons of this magnitude, and you wanted to send the message in the two places where all the missiles were, that would be Russia and that would be here.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would be one hell of a strong way to send a message.
		And the message would be unmistakable, wouldn't it?
		And that would be we can control exactly what occurs to those weapons of mass destruction.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		But that's not the only way to send a message.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We can start them, we can stop them, we can control them.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Look at John Mack's caseload and how a lot of his abductees, as well as Dave Jacobs and Bud Hopkins, and they all have an ecological message, even though a lot of these people don't even know each other.
		They all are shown visions of a decimated earth, scorched earth, dead soil, dead cities, dead animals.
		They get shown all this stuff.
		I mean, they're operating on a lot of different levels.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you think those imparted visions are warnings not to screw with the crop.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Not to screw with ourselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we're the crop.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		Because if we go, they go.
		I'm convinced of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, that all does make sense.
		Actually, it does.
		I mean, there's a certain line of reasoning there when you put all this together that does kind of make sense.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		And these little ships that come in are with the sophistication of a living organism, where the minerals and the layers of metal and ceramics and crystalline composites literally are mimicking the function structures and forms of living tissue down at the molecular level, allowing for direct interface between the flight crews and the artificial intelligence cortex of each vehicle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
		All right.
		All right.
		Listen, hold on right there, Bill.
		We're at a breakpoint here at the bottom of the hour.
		Bill McDonald is my guest.
		We're still talking Roswell.
		Good morning.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from November 22, 2002.
		Music Music Music
		I, I, I would be what would become of me While I'd looked around on my part of the bill of me I would go hard to be the brown You're
		listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time, tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from November 22nd, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, everybody.
		Bill McDonald is here, and I imagine this is a program that's going to reside near memory banks for a very long time.
		I'm Art Bell.
		We're going to actually take calls for Bill coming up in the next half hour.
		So if you have questions, we've got lines.
		Lies.
		Lies, lies, lies.
		My wife said it before I began the program today.
		I thought it was totally appropriate.
		She said, you know, after watching the Roswell show, she said, you know, technology's caught up with the Air Force.
		And I thought that was pretty observant of her.
		Technology seems to have caught up to the Air Force.
		Would that be your view, Bill?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		It's starting to get that way.
		Usually they're about 30 years ahead of us as far as what they have available in the way of processing power and microelectronics.
		But we're starting to get on par.
		Also, with all these different vehicles, whether it be the Wave Rider Stingray shape or whether it be a classic disc, you're looking at the ultimate evolution of custom technology to the point where the operating system and the technology regarding the mechanics of it are at the ultimate evolution possible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, it does seem, just to the casual observer, that's all I am, looking at your drawings of these craft and then looking at, you know, when you get these little sneak previews of the new stuff that we've got up there and we know we've gotten, it's exactly the same.
		I swear to God, it's exactly the same as what you've got drawn.
		And so, I mean, coincidental?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Not a chance.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		George Norrie knows better than that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, George Nori is running a very interesting.
		Well, anyway, listen, I want to go to the phone lines and let some people ask you some questions.
		Would that be all right?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We don't have a whole lot of time, so I've got to get to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Bill McDonald.
unidentified		Hello.
		Yes, sir.
		Bill.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		You spoke earlier of the reptilian nature of the skin of the underarms of the beings.
unidentified		Does this, in your view, collaborate with views of R.A. Boulay or Dr. Arthur David Horn about the Anunnaki?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		What I'm saying is that this particular artificially created or artificially bred species has a granulated scaled texture to the skin that very much resembles what the skin of a baby iguana looks like if you look at its armpit or the color and the skin texture of those
		anunnoli or a...
		rather those geckos from Hawaii that are albino.
		That's all I'm saying, that particular species.
		There's also reptilian species.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't think we know enough about the Anunnaki that long ago to make such a presumption.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, until we examine a body, all we can do is speculate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Speaking of bodies, Bill, where do you think they are?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Well, with the exception of one or two from each species, which have to be maintained whole for its preservative value, the others would have been sliced and diced into tissue samples the size of potato chips and spread out to biohazard research facilities throughout the entire world with labels that are simply alphanumeric or barcoding.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know what?
		That stands to reason.
		Those bodies that are intact and have been preserved, where do you imagine they might be?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		My witness sources have said several locations, one of them being Fort Wachuca on the Arizona border, which is where the NSA keeps a lot of its communications gear.
		People have claimed Pine Gap, Australia.
		I frankly believe that one of the bodies is on the east coast, probably underneath Fort Meade, Maryland.
		I think there's probably another at Fort Wachuca, and probably even a third or a fourth of each species, perhaps in the area of Capoose Dry Lake.
		Though most of the vehicles are gone from there, they're now in Rocky Mountain bases up in the Canadian wilds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would be still rather close to me, and there's an awful lot of security, and land has been annexed here and all the rest of it.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Sure, because now they've got all kinds of other neat projects that they got going on.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		My father used to work out there with some of his projects from Strategic Systems Division, which was the old North American Rockwell Autonetics.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on there with William McDonald.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello?
unidentified		Yeah, this is Maggie from Ohio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Maggie.
unidentified		Very pleasure to talk to you and Bill.
		A wonderful show, and I'll miss you.
		This is about Bob Sacks program, oh no, I bless it.
		Well, you know, Unsolved Mysteries that he did on Roswell.
		And a few nights after he did that, he went to a party, and Gordon McGrady's wife, Sheila, came up to him and said that they were stationed out there in 47, and that Gordon came home one night all excited, and she said, I had dinner ready, and I wanted him to sit down and eat.
		And he was so excited, he just couldn't do it.
		And that's not verbatim, but he said he saw little bodies that they brought in into the hangar, I guess, or somewhere, and verified more or less for me that I know it's true.
		And also about the missile silos, I was playing golf one day, and then a chap that was home on leave from a missile silo, he worked in missile silos, and I had to ask him if he'd ever seen any UFOs.
		He said, one night he said our missiles went crazy, and he said we had to go out and go down in them, and he said a UFO was hovering overhead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dear lady, I interviewed people who, officers who were involved in that entire incident.
		I can assure you that occurred, as was suggested a few moments ago, here and I was particularly interested in Russia because I didn't know specifically what had occurred in Russia, though I certainly know what occurred in this country, and you can take that one to the bank.
		It did occur.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with William McDonald.
unidentified		Hi, I'm really enjoying the show.
unidentified		I'm from Carla, from Montana.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		And I want to know if William has read David Jacobs' book, The Threat, because I have a theory based on that research.
		Yes, I have absolute respect for Dr. David Jacobs.
		I own his books, and I'm very proud to do so.
		Yeah, yeah, well, that's great.
		One of the things that I think he has missed, and I wrote him about it, and he seems to be in denial about considering the idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the idea is?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		The idea is that when you ask yourself why are they forming hybrids?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Why are they determined to insert hybrids into our culture?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		I believe it's to replace them because they're going extinct.
		I understand that, but you just don't replace yourself with children.
		Why not?
		Well, here you try to see what you can pass it around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Give it to us.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		That is that they are creating bodies that they themselves can reincarnate in.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Okay, the spiritual approach, all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Yeah, okay.
		Listen, I can buy into that possibility not as easily as I can buy into the question of deteriorated DNA and us being used in a kind of a farming way.
		I, too, am a subscriber to Dr. Jacobs' theories on all of this.
		While everybody else is walking around talking about the warm, fuzzy little creatures that we all saw, most encounters, Dr. Jacobs, I think, is much more realistic about what the probable reason for all this is.
		And I think you are too, Bill.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the species I postulated, Art, is actually human fetuses that have been taken, where the gestation has stopped and an artificial maturity process takes over, and they then become an alternate source for the technician class, which is, you know, those little short gray aliens.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		These are what I call neonate aliens, which I got from a friend of Whitley Streeber's that wrote a report on his communion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		And I subscribed to that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One more thing to run by you.
		I also interviewed another man.
		He's rather controversial, but I'll tell you what, his story has never wavered.
		He's just over the hill.
		He's kind of a friend.
		His name is Bob Lazar.
		And he described a power plant, as well as several craft that were at Area 51 at some point.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		My research supports Bob Lazar.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		I have no arguments or problems with anything that he said.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		His story has always remained excruciatingly the same.
		You know, a lot of guests, you give them the opportunity and they will come back and have another appearance and they'll enlarge their story in some way or new details will emerge that have not previously.
		But with Bob, I've interviewed him a number of times.
		It never changes.
		It's never embellished.
		It's always the same and it's very precise.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Agreed.
		Absolutely.
		He's a good person.
		I just wish I had the pleasure to meet him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you've heard him describe what he did work on, right?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have all of his videotapes and does it sound consistent?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Yes, absolutely.
		And it's consistent with my other military witnesses that I have dealt with over the years.
		Absolutely.
		But here's something that I want to throw out there before we run out of time.
		The Roswell aliens were able to plug directly into the ship through the crowns of their heads the way it sank into the materials of those crash couches, especially the one in the very rear of the ship.
		and uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		that we know that now as an as a as a lunatic bill as that might sound of the fact of the matter is Direct interface is now only perhaps a step away, if even a step away.
		In other words, our own military is experimenting with direct connection to craft, to controlling a craft virtually with thought.
		They're much further down that road than you might all imagine right now.
		Wouldn't you agree?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		I'm totally in agreement.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		I've been following that technology for a long time, as I've also been following the technology that allows you to drown a Navy SEAL over and over again in an oxygenated fluorocarbon and then bring him out of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've heard some of that same stuff.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		A lot of the stuff that is in the Roswell ship, including the direct interface between the head, the heads of the flight crew, and the artificial cortex of the vehicle, and that oxygenated broth fluid that was part of the inertial dampening system that was the ship's ballast and was totally their life support system.
		And by the way, the filtration system in the floor of the vessel has been described in detail.
		Like a fish tank.
		But all of this is critical to my research, and it's critical that I get this out there tonight.
		The flooring of the vessel was described by the Wright-Patterson witness, who claimed that he crawled through it, and he compared it to the tiny tubules that you see inside of a kidney dialysis bag when you cut it open, which is very similar to some of the more advanced filtration systems in saltwater aquariums today.
		And that there was gill-like slits along the floor where the fluid would be sucked down through the floor, and then it would flow back into the cabin through these gill-like slits, you know, and on the bottom of the floor of the crew cabin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what do gills do?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Gills oxygenate, clean, and also pass off, you know, the carbon dioxide.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		And in some cases, if these people are like frogs and they're receiving nutrients as well as oxygen through the skin, then they're also possibly even urinating through the skin, in other words, passing off of not only carbon dioxide, but uric acid, uric acid salts, possibly even ammonias, which are then cleaned through the floor decking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sounds like a pool with a thousand kids.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, a little bit.
unidentified		A little bit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A first-time caller line, you're on the air with William McDonald.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Hello, my name is Keith.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		I'm calling from Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
unidentified		And hello, William McDonald.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		I'm fantastic.
unidentified		I'm wondering if you're aware of the disclosure project?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Do you think their cause is for a good cause, like what they're doing?
unidentified		Or is their cause for is all in vain?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, all of this, this is a wonderful question.
		All through this sci-fi, I wonder how many other people noticed, through this sci-fi program, they dropped in after each commercial and going back into the program, they would drop in this printed thing that would say something like 77 out of 10 Americans say their religious convictions would not be disturbed were they to find out suddenly that there are ETs and on and on and on.
		Every single break they did that, as if to say, we're ready, we're ready, we're ready.
		Here's what the Roper survey says, we're ready.
		And so are we really, do you think, Bill, ready?
		And is disclosure then going down the right path, or would it be a disaster?
unidentified		Well, Art, it depends on which population and which community...
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		It depends on which community receives the information.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of Islamic communities that I believe would be driven to further insurrection and further violence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, oh, gee, that's not too big a reach.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's not too big a reach, considering 50 people were just burned to death and killed because somebody suggested that somebody's God might not mind Miss World contest or whatever they have.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Are you talking about Nigeria?
unidentified		They killed over 50.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
		They did.
		And that's just over why my God might think this is all right.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Over a few years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're still dying over that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that's not such a big reach, is it?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		It's a huge riot that the pageant's been taking away and they're still rioting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Well, it depends on the community.
		But also look at Peter Gerston's cause and Dr. Greer's work and the Disclosure Project and the work that Kent Jeffries tried to accomplish in the early 90s.
		They all, after a while, get sidetracked because they just can't get over that invisible hump.
		It just kind of stops things cold after a while.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Look here, we're almost out of time.
		I want to squeeze one in.
		Ease of the Rockies real quick with Bill McDonald.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
		This is Tom calling WRKO680.
		It's the call station.
		The question is the magnetic electro magnetic propulsion unit, would that make a low humming noise?
		I had the counter that I kind of heard that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, would there be a little time with the drive system?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would there be a low humming noise or a noise associated with the drive?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Close to the ground in levitation mode in contact with the atmosphere?
		Sure, why not?
		It vibrates molecules.
		Vibrating molecules will give off a hum.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bill, I don't know how to thank you.
		I want to just thank you from the bottom of my heart for being here.
		We're out of time.
		Incredible program.
		Your website is there.
		We've got a link up.
		They can go explore all they want.
		Anything else you want to give out?
		Any information?
		Very quickly.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, if anybody's interested in ghosts, my wife, Lori McDonald, is a ghost hunter who photographs anomalous energy in locations and places purported to be haunted.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All in the family, huh, Bill?
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and also we are available if you've been abducted or if there is a really, really good vehicle that you saw up close.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		We're always looking for new spacecraft to reconstruct and composite using proper detective methods and standards.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll do it before I leave.
		Thank you again, Bill.
		Thank you so much for being here.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		It was an honor, sir.
bill mcdonald ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night.
		We'll let Crystal Gale take us out tonight, Friday night, Saturday morning.
		There's been some program, huh?
		From the high desert.
		Good night.
unidentified		Good night in the desert, shooting stars across the sky.
		This magical journey will take us dawn a ride filled with the longing, searching for the truth.
		But we make it to tomorrow for the sun shine on you.

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