All Episodes
Nov. 16, 2002 - Art Bell
01:53:38
20021116_Art-Bell-SIT-Dr-Paul-Pearsall-Cellular-Memory

Dr. Paul Pearsall and Harry Browne challenge conventional views of consciousness, citing 1966 UCLA RNA studies and cases like an eight-year-old girl recognizing her donor Danny’s life post-transplant—heart racing at his photos, 40,000 neurons in the heart, and electromagnetic fields 5,000x stronger than the brain. Browne’s own experiences, including sudden guitar skills and emotional ties to donor Danielle, align with documented cases of memory or energy transfer, like a recipient feeling 19 after a 19-year-old donor’s heart. They explore non-locality, quantum physics parallels, and indigenous beliefs, questioning if blood transfusions or artificial hearts could similarly carry consciousness. Despite skepticism, their research suggests the heart may hold more than just physical function—potentially reshaping how we understand life, death, and donation. [Automatically generated summary]

Participants
Main
a
art bell
30:09
d
dr paul pearsall
50:32
h
harry browne
18:35
Appearances
t
tucker carlson
dailycaller 00:44
Callers
elena in winnipeg
callers 01:29
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Speaker Time Text
Stupid Worms' Memory Mystery 00:04:06
unidentified
This is Coast A Coast AM on the Premier Radio Networks.
art bell
Okay, Dr. Pierzall, welcome to the program.
dr paul pearsall
Aloha, thanks for having me.
art bell
Well, it's just great to have you.
You're in Hawaii someplace or another.
unidentified
Where are you?
dr paul pearsall
I live on the island of Oahu in Honolulu.
art bell
Oh, Main Island.
dr paul pearsall
On the main island, yep.
art bell
All right.
You are going to talk about something that is just absolutely, it just rivets me.
Because there's just appears to be so much that we don't understand about ourselves.
And, you know, to the average person, doctor, it seems utterly impossible that any sort of memory or any sort of anything could transfer in one of our lower organs, our heart, our liver, our lungs, something like that.
It's just, you know, it's nice to have, but it's not the brain.
Or at least we didn't think that it was the brain or that there was any, could possibly be.
I mean, it's science fiction almost to imagine there could be transference of any kind of memory with the transference of just an organ.
But do you believe that to be true?
dr paul pearsall
Well, you have so many really excellent scientists on your show, and I don't think it really matters what I believe.
I think what really matters is what does the data show us?
harry browne
And the data shows us if we really look at this, and you're quite right, Art, that so many people are so threatened by this.
dr paul pearsall
But I asked them to look at the journals.
And why are they so surprised when we use a word like cellular memory?
I know I was at a scientific meeting the other day, and somebody said, even that phrase sounds stupid to me.
And I said, well, let's just stop a moment here, first of all.
harry browne
If you go back to high school and think of that one single cell paramecia, it has no brain at all.
art bell
Right.
harry browne
Yet it remembers how to swim, finds food, it mates, it recognizes and invades predators.
dr paul pearsall
It's got a memory of what we call in science a memory of function.
That is, it always remembers what to do.
So if one cell will do it, think of 75 trillion cells.
art bell
Is that genetic?
In other words, even one cell has a genetic structure, doesn't it?
dr paul pearsall
Well, it does, and these simple cells can be passed, these simple memories can be passed on.
harry browne
It shouldn't surprise us because we all know about RNA, rubinucleic acid, and DNA.
dr paul pearsall
And you know what was strange?
harry browne
In 1966, think how long ago this was, in the journal Nature, which is a reputable journal.
art bell
Oh, yes, indeed.
harry browne
It's not one of these far-out things.
dr paul pearsall
It's one of the problems in me doing the research in this area is that wherever there's gold, there's counterfeiters.
harry browne
And some of these weird stories and weird things start to dominate when the real science is strange enough and hard enough to accept.
Because in 1966, at UCLA, scientists were able to transfer memories from one organism to another by transferring the RNA.
What they did is typical kind of boring science, I guess, but they took 400 little tiny worms, divided them into two groups.
One they conditioned to respond to light and then moved toward food.
The other ones were left just stupid.
And they sacrificed the worms that they had trained and then transferred cells from those simple worms.
Now, look how simple level we're talking about, to the stupid worms.
And the stupid worms automatically reacted to the light and pursued the food.
This data has accumulated and accumulated, and this evening we'll talk about certainly some of the dramatic stories.
dr paul pearsall
And some have happened even within hours since your producers asked me to come on the show.
harry browne
Really?
dr paul pearsall
And I wrote these down because I said I've got to share these first with you guys because these stories come constantly, even when you apply our good scientific standard to dismiss these and be skeptical.
Heart's Cool Impact 00:14:29
dr paul pearsall
But I hope tonight, as your listeners tune into this topic, they will realize that skepticism is everything.
art bell
Doctor, how many surgeons who do transplant work do you think would laugh and walk away at the concept versus those who would, because of their own experience, let's put it that way, not laugh and not walk away?
harry browne
That's the interesting thing, Art.
dr paul pearsall
When I published the book called The Heart's Cool with the first data and then two or three journal articles after that, I thought, boy, am I going to catch flack.
Do you know the only group from whom I have not caught flack has been the heart transplant surgeons.
Really?
harry browne
Take just one very well-known transplant surgeon, Mimit Oz at Columbia.
art bell
Yes.
dr paul pearsall
I remember one day out here just paddling in my canoe outside the ocean, and my wife calling me and say, you better get in here.
Dr. Oz is on the phone.
And I thought, oh, boy, he's read this stuff.
I'm going to catch it.
art bell
Yeah, here we go.
harry browne
And I ran in, and he said, I've got to tell you, I just finished your book.
dr paul pearsall
It's brilliant.
unidentified
You're right.
dr paul pearsall
It's time this stuff came out.
art bell
Really?
dr paul pearsall
About 10 years ago, there was a doctor, I don't remember his name, who interviewed several, several heart transplant surgeons.
The only one who remained skeptical, even very negatively so, was Dr. DeBakey, who said, quote, it's simply a pump.
harry browne
But you know what surprised me about that, Art?
What?
dr paul pearsall
It's not just a pump.
harry browne
That's the most powerful mechanical pump.
It is certainly a pump, too.
But just think, if you describe the heart, now I'm going to do this from memory, so I hope I don't make mistakes that doctors here.
dr paul pearsall
But it can pump blood six feet in the air.
Think of the power.
It beats at least 100,000 times a day.
It's got more than 3 billion of pulsations in an average lifetime.
Two gallons of blood per minute through the whole body through a vessel system that could be wrapped around the planet two and one-half times.
art bell
Holy moly.
dr paul pearsall
It energizes and sets the rhythm for all of our 75 trillion cells.
harry browne
Its electromagnetic field is 5,000 times greater than the strength of the field produced by the brain.
dr paul pearsall
We can measure heart energy with magnometers 10 feet away from the body.
I know you've had an excellent scientist on, and he's done some articles with me, Gary Schwartz.
art bell
Oh, of course.
dr paul pearsall
Brilliant, careful scientist, also researching areas that are sometimes approached with great skepticism and cynicism.
And his work has shown that the electrical information patterns generated by the heart are detectable in our own brainwaves and listen to this, other people's brainwaves.
Now, Gary told me one time that they were doing a study, and they had all these little electrodes on somebody's head for an electroencephalogram, and they're doing all the measuring.
But one electrode was left free by mistake.
And they couldn't understand the readings they were getting.
And it turned out that electrode was picking up the heart energy of the examiner.
unidentified
No kidding.
dr paul pearsall
So when somebody says, you know, it's just the heart after all, that's because that's your brain saying it.
And we always joke over here that the brain lost its mind.
It lost its mind because it's that heart that's the most powerful organ in the body.
It's the one muscle in your body that, unless it's diseased, is just as young at autopsy after death when you're older as when you were younger.
We could go on tonight about this, but when we talk about the heart, this is some kind of organ we're going to be talking about.
art bell
You already laid a number of facts, in fact, worrisome ones to me.
I remember a shot movie about the space shuttle saying, you know, 5 million moving parts all built by the lowest bidder as they got ready to launch, you know, and you're telling me the heart is a lot more complex than that.
dr paul pearsall
Well, you aren't kidding.
harry browne
Just think of it.
dr paul pearsall
You know, the heart is capable of emitting 5,000 millivolts of electricity.
The brain, 140 millivolts.
I think some people, maybe a lot less than what I've been dealing with over here.
But I can tell you this, the Voyager spacecraft circling around over there in Saturn sent back its energy with 10 millivolts.
So if you think that that heart is not something special, we should be listening to the ancient Hawaiians, to the ancient Egyptians, who used to mummify the brain of the heart and throw away the brain.
art bell
Do you believe that there would be a proportionately less amount of cellular memory transference with other organs, liver, lungs?
Would there be a varying amount?
The way you describe the heart, very interesting.
There might be more transference with the heart, do you think, or not?
dr paul pearsall
I actually think so, and that's an excellent research question.
I not only think so again, I know so.
harry browne
And how do we know that?
dr paul pearsall
By some of the interviews we'll share later on in the show, by the data we've collected, because the heart is unique.
It's right in the center.
art bell
Right.
dr paul pearsall
I just gave you a whole documentation from memory of the power of this organ.
harry browne
It is immensely powerful.
dr paul pearsall
And then we also talked already a little about cellular memory.
harry browne
Now, you take those millions of cells.
dr paul pearsall
We know the heart has 40,000 neurons in it.
Years ago, they formed a field called neurocardiology, endocardiology, knowing that the heart has hormones in it.
It has substances we used to think were only in the brain.
harry browne
But we now find them in the heart.
dr paul pearsall
A substance called atrial naturitic factor.
It's a factor we call a balance hormone.
It keeps the body in balance.
That's in the heart.
harry browne
It looks to us in our research that the heart reacts to signals in our environment faster, and yes, I said faster, than the brain.
dr paul pearsall
So if we're going to put that heart in somebody else's chest, it is awfully naive to think that that powerful organ isn't really doing something more than we thought it did.
art bell
Well, but you know, if you prove that, doctor, then you raise ethical questions for hearts, transplant surgeons that have never been raised before.
I mean, it's tough enough as it is right now.
And I wonder if you've been told that by some of them, because it's obvious to me.
If you prove what you're telling us tonight, and I have a feeling you will to this audience, then they've got ethical problems that go beyond the ones they've got already.
dr paul pearsall
Well, you know, it's a good news for me as a scientist is that's actually just the opposite.
harry browne
We'll talk a little later.
dr paul pearsall
I'm a transplant recipient, not of a heart, but a bone marrow transplant, because I almost died of cancer, as you described earlier.
And the good news here is because transplant is such a sacred process that when we interview these donor families and recipient families, as we'll discuss this evening, this is a source of relief, not fear or ethical dilemma.
Because are we to say that by taking that sacred gift, it's nothing but a piece of tissue?
It is not.
It is a sacred gift.
And the research we'll present tonight actually documents how important that is and how gracious a gift that is rather than alarming people away from it.
art bell
Okay, I guess I get that.
A piece of the donor, more than just a pump, a physical pump, then goes to the recipient.
dr paul pearsall
Isn't it almost, and I know this is awfully radical to say, but isn't it also a way almost of being immortal?
art bell
Yeah, I guess in a well, in a way, it's a sort of immortality.
I'm not sure that as I consider immortality, I consider consciousness, which is a whole other subject we could talk about.
dr paul pearsall
Oh, that's for sure, yeah.
art bell
But certainly, at least in a sense, yes, sure.
dr paul pearsall
It's a continuation, and from a Hawaiian point, they have a word called lokahi.
We are all connected, and as you'll hear tonight, these transplant stories in some ways are, and I'm sorry I published them because some of them are so dramatic, and we'll tell some of them tonight.
art bell
Okay.
dr paul pearsall
And that they cause what we call in Hawaii chicken skin.
You have to just please yourself to get the goosebumps.
art bell
But it's the only way we're ever really going to understand more about the nature of ourselves, the real nature of ourselves.
There's just not enough people looking at these questions.
dr paul pearsall
That's right.
That's why I'm so appreciative to have the time to share this because it's just not been, you have to understand that I published this book, Heart's Code, in 1998.
Only this year have they come from the BBC, from Germany, from Spain, from Russia to talk to me.
Because I think now when you publish enough data, even if they're stories, sometimes a lot of stories told with care and collected carefully become legitimate data worthy of listening to.
art bell
And I'm going to tell you something.
As somebody who does a nightly talk show, I'm a little disappointed in some ways in the American media because what I'm finding, and of course I deal with stories, you know, that are out on the edge of every field.
Right.
I'm finding that I'm getting more interesting current data from the BBC than I am from American major outlets of a similar size.
I mean, it's not even a close call.
They're all over a lot of stories.
And it's just, I'm kind of sorry.
have to go to the bbc to get these things i wish i could be getting them from cbs and nbc and for you right after the They were the first ones to pick this up.
unidentified
There you are.
harry browne
They went to Oxford to present it.
dr paul pearsall
They've been over there for four years.
art bell
Yeah.
dr paul pearsall
This is the first mainland show to cover this topic in any detail with me.
art bell
You're kidding.
dr paul pearsall
The first one.
harry browne
When they had this book come out, you know how authors push for it to get on shows and they want a PR.
dr paul pearsall
My concern is to get this data out.
Gary Schwartz and I had published this article more than two years ago.
And now, just now, some of the media is picking this up.
art bell
But I mean, this is the great America.
This is the place that everybody comes when they're really sick, you know, as a last-ditch effort.
If they can afford it, they fly to America and they go to the very best.
And so how can this be?
dr paul pearsall
Well, I'm afraid we can talk, that's be a whole other show, the status of medicine in the United States, because it's really a very mechanical approach in medicine.
And, you know, even with all the modern medical marvels, we can only explain 46% of the variants.
That is to say, modern medicine only knows 46% of why a person gets cancer, why they get a heart attack.
I just lectured at a medical school the other day, and I pointed out, you do realize, don't you, that more than half the people who have a heart attack have none of the heart attack risk factors.
What is that?
art bell
That's comforting.
dr paul pearsall
And the other thing that makes me, and I'm going to get some trouble tonight with my doctor colleagues, but who among us doesn't know that person who has violated every health rule and been a health reprobate their whole life and lived forever, practically?
And the person who followed every health rule.
art bell
I'm hoping for that, by the way.
unidentified
Me too.
dr paul pearsall
I know when they diagnosed me with stage four cancer, I've never smoked.
I don't swear.
harry browne
I think I'm a nice guy.
I do everything to show aloha in caring.
dr paul pearsall
And I thought, and they misdiagnosed my cancer miserably.
So I think what's happened in medicine, and certainly it offers many miracles and modern things to do, but it's tended to not to be a blended medicine that looks into the things that you and I will examine tonight.
art bell
I guess I do want to ask you about being diagnosed with the stage four cancer and for being who you are, being a doctor yourself.
Hold on, Doctor.
We're at the bottom of the hour.
It's hard to imagine how a doctor who would fully understand the implications of the diagnosis of stage four cancer would take the news.
Probably not very well.
Or perhaps I should broaden it and say that most doctors would not accept that news very well at all.
Perhaps not even as well as the average person.
I don't know.
We'll ask.
Anyway, Dr. Paul Pearsall is my guest, and we are going to be telling you some fascinating stories.
And by the end of the night, you'll believe something you did not believe before.
I'm Art Bell.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified
Tonight's presentation of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell and his guest, Dr. Paul Pearsall, is an encore presentation.
Some of them want to abuse you.
Some of them want to be abused.
Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
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First-time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
To reach Art on the Toll-Free International Line, call your ATT operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
art bell
Certainly, as my guest is Dr. Paul Pearsall.
We're talking about some incredibly interesting things that you probably didn't know about yourself.
I certainly didn't know about myself.
I didn't know all that about the heart, did you?
But there's so much more to tell.
tucker carlson
we'll be right back to tell a very quick little story on I was a medic in the Air Force.
art bell
And of course, as a result, I work in a hospital, and I work in one in Amarillo, Texas.
Intuition Saves the Day 00:09:31
art bell
And one day, a girlfriend of mine, this was when I was 20 years old, said, What's this on your shoulder blade?
You know, it's a big lump on my shoulder blade.
Something you wouldn't notice, right?
Your bed partner certainly would.
And I said, oh my God, I don't know.
I went in, and of course, I knew the doctors because I worked with them every day, and they knew me.
And so I went into this doctor, a captain whose name I will not mention for his sake.
And I said, take a look at this, Doc.
And he said, oh, my.
He said, we're going to have to go get that right away.
Well, turned out it was a great, it was really big, a big tumor.
It was a big, nasty old tumor.
And, you know, they took it out and sent it off for the pathology.
And in those days, you had to wait.
It took, I forget, two or three days, you know.
And at the end of that time, he, oh, he was so somber, he called me into his office, you know, took me off duty and called me into his office and sat me down and looked me in the face.
And there was this long silence.
And he said, well, you've got about six months.
You know, so I went totally ashen.
I turned utterly ashen white.
And he took about a two-second take of just sitting there and then totally cracked up and fell on the floor.
And ha ha ha.
Funniest thing here, he couldn't stop laughing.
He was on the floor for five minutes while my color slowly returned.
And so for a few seconds, Dr. Pearsall, I was there.
And so then, what's it like for a physician to be diagnosed with stage four?
dr paul pearsall
Well, you know, doctors are no different than anyone else when it comes to these types of things.
What was interesting and pertinent to what we're discussing tonight, Art, is that I wasn't shocked when they told me I had cancer.
art bell
No.
dr paul pearsall
I had felt in my heart, which was something my colleagues laughed at because it sounded like new-age gobbledygoot to me.
art bell
You knew you were sick.
harry browne
I said not only that, Art, I said, I think I've got cancer.
dr paul pearsall
I'm feeling tired.
I'm under the weather.
And they said, ah, you're stressed at the clinic.
harry browne
You're running this.
You're doing this.
And I begged them to do these tests.
dr paul pearsall
And they said, it's just ridiculous.
So I ordered my own CAT scan.
And I could feel it in my heart.
harry browne
And I'm sure your listeners will agree with that phrase.
dr paul pearsall
We use that phrase a lot.
It's in my heart.
My heart goes out to you.
unidentified
Sure.
harry browne
We'll talk tonight about that is no longer metaphor.
dr paul pearsall
The heart literally thinks, connects with other hearts, and feels.
So I felt that I had this cancer.
So finally, after six months of agony with pain that I just cannot describe, I finally got the CAT scan.
I hear people in my own hospital crying during my CAT scan.
So this is not good news.
art bell
Yeah, not good news.
dr paul pearsall
They come out and they say, you have a soccer ball-sized tumor in your hip.
You have, I don't know why they always say six months.
They do seem to say that a lot, don't they?
art bell
Yeah, I guess.
dr paul pearsall
Which, pertinent to your first guest in the issue of time, you know, as if physicians could give a time limit to this kind of thing.
It's ridiculous to say a phrase like that.
But they said, you've got about a half year to live.
art bell
Basketball size.
dr paul pearsall
Yeah, massive.
And then they said, there's not much we can do.
We'll try.
Went through chemotherapy, and I won't bore your listeners with my long story.
And I described it all in Miracle in Maui because I wanted to get it out to the medical community and let them understand what we mean by miracles, not these old kind of weird kind of things.
But something profoundly powerful happened.
Had they listened to my heart, had I even listened earlier to my heart, might have been diagnosed earlier.
And here's all these people now filling my heart, and I mean that literally, with hopelessness, with despair, and I certainly don't embrace, and we can talk about that tonight with any callers or anybody else.
I'm not embracing this idea that if you have the right attitude, you're going to live forever.
harry browne
And if you love enough, that's just ridiculous.
dr paul pearsall
I know why people die.
I've got the answer.
We're mortal.
And I'm tired of that kind of, I hate to sound angry about it, but I heard a lot of that, that if you had the right attitude, you would have lived.
That wasn't the point.
But the point was that they were giving me a death sentence and not allowing me to heal in my way.
And here we are now.
That's maybe almost 14 years ago.
I feel you'll get a laugh out of this art.
harry browne
I go for my physical exam about a year ago.
dr paul pearsall
And you're always worried, even if after you've gone through something like this.
art bell
Of course, it'll come back.
dr paul pearsall
Oh, I just, oh no.
So I get a call, and the doctor says, you've got to come in and talk to me.
I've got bad news.
And I thought, oh, geez, I made it.
harry browne
So I go in there and we sit down, similar to your story, I guess.
dr paul pearsall
And he looks at me.
harry browne
He says, Dr. Pearsall, here's the news.
dr paul pearsall
Your cholesterol is too tiny.
unidentified
And I said, you know what?
harry browne
This calls for a celebration.
dr paul pearsall
I'm going out to get a Big Mac.
And pertinent to that story, I remember, and I've been dead three times.
harry browne
I don't know how many of your guests come on here and tell you stories I learned from my death, but I've got to be brought back.
art bell
Have some remarkable stories.
dr paul pearsall
I know you have, and here I am dying and I can tell you this as fact and now, as scientists, I could feel the hearts of those around me bringing me back.
Hearts connect to other hearts.
I hate to just bring the scientist out me again on this, but there was a study done at the Sensum Medical Research Institute.
harry browne
They had a.
dr paul pearsall
They did a treadmill study, an interesting study.
harry browne
They took a group of biopsied heart cells.
dr paul pearsall
They took it from somebody, and then that person from whom they took the biopsy to check their heart cells was sent across town to a lab to do a stress test.
harry browne
His cells were left on the other side of town.
dr paul pearsall
While running on the treadmill, his cells began to beat faster across town.
Now that stuff sounds so bizarre that most scientists, therefore, will say, I'm not going to deal with this.
art bell
How was this observed, might I ask?
dr paul pearsall
They had the lab technicians take these cells out to...
art bell
Oh, no, no, no, I understand the why of it, but I mean, why were they particularly observing at the coincident time that the stress test was going on?
harry browne
Because you got the right word there, coincidentally, because they're looking at this and they're wondering, why are these cells pulsating like this so fast?
So all they have to do is look up the treadmill test time and say, my gosh, there it is.
It's at the same time.
dr paul pearsall
It shouldn't surprise us, though.
I'm sure you've had other people on, like Dr. Dawson, who talks a lot about non-locality.
art bell
Yes, oh, yes, of course.
dr paul pearsall
And that is not any weird hypothesis.
harry browne
And it may be because of non-locality.
dr paul pearsall
It may be about electricity.
I'm no world expert on all the explanations.
I'm here only to ask, please don't bite my finger.
Look where I'm pointing.
We as scientists, not just me, but Gary Schwartz, Linda Russik, dozens of other scientists have been trying to point out, listen to your heart.
It thinks differently.
harry browne
There is no doubt.
dr paul pearsall
Your brain is an arrogant, pushy, sort of a health maintenance organization that's governed by trying to get things.
And I don't mean to get vulgar on your show, but by the four F's.
It's food, fight, flea, and sex.
art bell
Yep, yep, yep, yep.
dr paul pearsall
Not the heart.
The heart is like a little child gently tugging at your sleeve.
art bell
Well, you see, I've always been told that, you know, the F's that you mentioned are in the center part of our brain, our reptile center part of the brain, and that the outer part of the brain, the front part of the brain, the frontal lobe, is engaged in the higher aspects of.
But you're telling me some of this is really the heart.
dr paul pearsall
Not only that, certainly heart and brain are connected.
The heart's energy, the heart speaks to the brain.
The old theory in medicine was the brain is in charge of everything.
The brain runs everything.
But I believe you have a guest coming on later on this week.
I checked your website that's going to talk a little bit about what he calls the God spot.
art bell
Oh, yes.
dr paul pearsall
I believe so.
I may have that wrong, but it's talking about what happens when you really, when you meditate deeply, for example, and other plates, parts of the brain take over.
Well, we now know that you can do cardio meditation.
That is, if you calm your heart down and shut up your loudmouth brain, that heart will send messages to you.
Every scientist listening to my voice knows that your feelings are faster than your thoughts.
art bell
Sure.
dr paul pearsall
You can't keep up with them.
We now know, and I'm sure you do this even though you have a scientific mind art, you make decisions on your show as to who will be on, the validity of your guests, how you're going to plan your program, not only mentally, but what's in your heart.
art bell
Oh, you better believe it.
harry browne
You may describe it as intuition.
art bell
Well, we always say that, though, as a phrase.
I don't think we've contemplated it as a reality as we are tonight with you.
dr paul pearsall
You're right.
We haven't because it's fallen into a phrase I don't like, parapsychology, like it's beside psychology or paranormal.
Confessions of the Heart 00:10:05
dr paul pearsall
This is a normal event.
The heart has always been there doing this for us.
harry browne
Nobody gives anybody a Valentine's Straight brain.
We have always, your listeners can do it right now, unless they're driving.
dr paul pearsall
Here's what they could do.
Please point to yourself.
Most people point right to their heart.
art bell
That's right.
dr paul pearsall
Right dead on to the heart.
art bell
That's what I just did.
dr paul pearsall
And I hope tonight that people will open their hearts to this because their brain's going to say, I don't want to hear this.
I'm in charge.
art bell
Okay, let's tell some stories.
I know that you published in the Journal of Integrative Medicine and the Journal of Near-Death Studies, and you've told some stories in there.
So, you know, most of my listeners will not have heard these stories.
Let loose.
Tell me a couple.
dr paul pearsall
Well, it's my job, as I said, when we collect these stories, and I have some rules as we have done them.
harry browne
I'm interested in collecting the stories from the people who do not want to tell them.
art bell
Of course.
dr paul pearsall
That helps me right there.
Our criterion for collecting this is I wanted to talk to the donor families, to the recipient families, to the recipient, to the surgeon, if possible, or at least the medical staff, and collect this data and not try to lead them.
harry browne
And I'm not perfect on this, and just let them talk.
art bell
What about, are there ever privacy issues that get in the way of your doing that?
I know sometimes the donor and the recipient are not known to each other, and that's the way it's supposed to be.
dr paul pearsall
Right, we have to be very careful with that, and we never violate that.
And each some states have different rules about this, and there are ethics involved in this.
But these patients, the sad thing for us has been, since I published this material, patients call every day saying, Dr. Pearsall, I want to talk about this, but I've been made front of by other transplant patients who say this guy's nuts.
I don't want to hear about it.
By other doctors, or they get sent to the psychiatrist because they're crazy.
And before we tell these stories, I just want to make sure we're clear on this.
We are scientists looking at this.
I want to know why this happens.
Is it due to some degree to all these terribly strong immunosuppressive drugs that these people are on for life?
Is it due because of the transplant process, to the trauma?
There are many other explanations, but to be a good scientist, you must not think either or, but perhaps and.
art bell
So if you have a heart transplant, you're going to be on immune suppressive drugs your entire life.
For the rest of your life.
dr paul pearsall
And some of those are very, very strong.
art bell
I bet they are.
What is the average expectation of a transplant patient these days?
dr paul pearsall
For heart transplant?
art bell
Yes.
harry browne
It's really increased now.
dr paul pearsall
I don't have the recent data at my hands, but it's gone up to certainly over a decade and longer.
art bell
Really?
dr paul pearsall
And some much longer.
And that's why I'm very careful.
And we can tell these stories all night because we have collected now over 200.
art bell
My, my.
dr paul pearsall
And I'm very cautious.
And remember the cartridge.
I want to interview everybody here that I can.
And I want to just take their tape down as they say it.
So if I can just tell you one of the stories that came in today before we get to the other ones.
art bell
Sure.
dr paul pearsall
I'll tell you a quick one that doesn't count first.
This one doesn't count because I gave a lecture on this and an internist in the audience was smirking the whole time I was talking like this is ridiculous.
And this happens to me after many lectures.
This guy came up afterwards and said, I need to talk to you in private.
I'm going to tell you a story, but you can't tell them I told you.
Happens to, like I'm a confessional here.
And he says, this is a story that I hope that you will publish someplace.
Well, I can't because I don't have the data.
Here's what he told.
A little girl had had a heart transplant.
Now, the decision for what the transplantation nowadays has a lot to do with size more than anything else, size of the body, to match it up.
harry browne
This little girl, he wanted to introduce to me.
dr paul pearsall
So she finally comes up, pulls open her blouse, and you've seen that.
harry browne
Have you ever seen the heart transplant or the heart, even for open heart surgery, the scars there, especially in the old days?
art bell
Oh, yes.
dr paul pearsall
Quite large.
But quite large.
This poor little child says, Dr. Pearsall, can you see my scar?
I have a little angel in my chest.
I have someone's other heart here.
And her mom says, you can tell the doctor everything.
And she said, well, I know that my donor's name is Krista.
Now, she doesn't know her donor.
We're able to check later to find out that the kid's name that she got the heart from was Christine, only called Krista by her parents.
How'd she know that?
Well, that isn't even the story yet.
Because then the mother says, go ahead.
I guess this was kind of an insult.
art bell
May I ask your hands off you and I, Matt?
Are you sure that there would have been no way that she was notified by parents or a physician of the name of her donor?
dr paul pearsall
Not with this case, because it's not mine.
harry browne
The other ones tonight are the ones that I wanted to control that for.
dr paul pearsall
That's possible.
harry browne
But that's not even the story.
dr paul pearsall
Here comes a story that I am part of the story I am sure of.
Here's the thing that stunned me.
And again, for your audience, this is hearsay.
This is somebody telling me, then the kid telling me, so I have no way of controlling this.
But she said, the mother says, got to tell her because you're not sleeping at night, honey.
And she said, Dr. Pearsall, maybe it's the medicine, but I keep dreaming of Krista being hit in the head with a hammer by a man behind a church.
I keep dreaming that.
art bell
Oh?
dr paul pearsall
Well, guess what happened?
That's how her donor had been killed.
art bell
Oh, my gosh.
dr paul pearsall
That we know.
Now, any good scientist out there saying there's many ways this could have been had, this kid might have picked this up.
They may have seen it on TV.
I don't know.
harry browne
So that case doesn't count.
dr paul pearsall
That's just the warm-up case for tonight.
art bell
Well, no, it certainly counts for me.
Oh, my God.
So she remembered her death and suffering nightmares from her death.
dr paul pearsall
And she could see it just as clear as she could, you know what she did with kids.
I said, draw it for me, honey.
unidentified
She drew this.
art bell
She drew it.
harry browne
And it was just amazing art to see that.
dr paul pearsall
The day that your production team called me to ask me to come on the show, a man had called an hour before.
This is a doctor who got a new heart.
This is when your production staff said they got chicken skin when they were goosebumps.
And you've got a heart staff to do that too because they're very careful in their interviews.
And this guy calls up and he says, you're the guy doing that work.
I always wonder what they mean by that.
It sounds like an assault or something.
And I said, what can I do for you?
He said, I have a new heart.
I've had it for weeks.
I can't sleep.
I can't nap.
I close my eyes.
I see the image or I dream the image or I nap the image of some young woman falling down three flights of stairs and it's me and I break my neck.
Three flights of stairs.
I read your stupid book and nobody will check.
So I call the nurse's station and I say, we have a confidentiality issue here.
She said, yes, all the nurses are upset.
The doctor's upset because we've heard that dream.
We're not allowed to tell him.
But his donor was a college co-head left at a Kegger, a beer party in a fret house, and she was left upstairs about three flights of stairs.
Everybody else left to go out and eat, forgot her.
She woke up and stumbled down the three flights of stairs and broke her neck.
art bell
Oh, my God.
dr paul pearsall
Again, these two stories, and we'll talk more about them tonight, these are reported to me.
So anybody calling could say, you can't prove that.
I can't.
These are stories just told to me.
The other ones, I got.
art bell
You have personally.
dr paul pearsall
The ones I thought, but I thought those were just funny stories.
unidentified
Oh, they are.
art bell
They are, and, you know, is there, I mean, what do you, are you then allowed to go back and say, guess what?
I did a little checking, or you were.
dr paul pearsall
It was hard for me because, remember, you mentioned earlier correctly, you know, the privacy issue.
And I said, can I talk to him in generalities about this?
art bell
Yes.
dr paul pearsall
And I don't know the answer, and I'll know the answer hopefully tomorrow.
art bell
So you're still working on this one.
dr paul pearsall
Oh, yeah, I can't abandon him.
I mean, he just can't sleep.
And this poor guy, and I'm sure you've had other people on your show talking about these kind of things, people who report things that are out of the box.
art bell
Not this far.
I mean, I interviewed a lady who had a heart and lung trance plant and then had these cravings of the young boy.
I think you probably know the story I was on.
dr paul pearsall
Oh, Claire Sylvia, I think.
art bell
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Exactly.
But what you're describing now is, of course, I suppose the last and most dramatic moment of these prisons, the donors' lives, the end of their lives.
And I can imagine how it would haunt the recipient.
I mean, that makes absolute sense.
That's a lot more dramatic than what I've heard before.
That's astounding, in fact.
I wonder what can be done to help these people.
dr paul pearsall
Finally, doing what you're doing, what I'm doing.
harry browne
Open this up for discussion.
And let me just say this.
dr paul pearsall
Let's suppose we're totally wrong tonight.
harry browne
All this is bogus.
And it's not true at all with all the research, and it shows up that I'm totally wrong.
dr paul pearsall
We still have to help these people.
These stories are still coming.
They're still happening.
art bell
All right.
Hold tight, Doctor.
We'll be right back.
Dr. Paul Pearsall is my guest, and we're talking about people who have received organs.
Specifically, we're talking mostly about the heart, and more than just organs have come along.
Auntie Gwen's Giving Tree 00:07:44
art bell
Now, you've just got to ask what that means about us.
And obviously, the answer is a whole lot more than we ever thought.
remarkable stuff
unidentified
And even to be what you want to be.
To reach Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255, East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
Or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
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This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
art bell
My guest is Dr. Paul Pearsall, and I suggest you stay right where you are.
Gary in Westland, Michigan says, are, you know, those of us who are old enough to know, know the hard things.
unidentified
This is why we've had so many hit songs that contain the word heart.
art bell
Go back and listen to the oldies.
Well, I don't have to.
Listen to them all the time, and you are exactly correct.
unidentified
Well, okay.
art bell
Once again, Dr. Paul Pearsall.
Doctor, just a quick question.
Why do we have these, what is the rationale behind the laws that protect the donor and the recipient or the recipient from information about the donor?
Why do they do that?
What's the rationale?
dr paul pearsall
Well, I think probably everybody, each state probably has their own reasons that these laws evolve and they vary.
But I think the idea is that donation may lead to the family that it's going to get this heart coming back and asking for something more or more acquaintance and intimacy to the donor family than that donor family may want.
art bell
I've got you.
dr paul pearsall
And although I have been at several ceremonies now that have been set up, and we'll read some stories about it tonight or talk about them, set up especially for the donors to meet the recipient families and vice versa.
And the recipient, I've been there, and don't forget, as I said, I had a bone marrow transplant myself.
art bell
Yes.
harry browne
So I've been there as a speaker and observed these phenomenon.
And I have never been moved so than to see these people.
They have what's called a giving tree.
dr paul pearsall
And very often the recipient will come up and hang up a picture of their donor on the tree and everybody just cries and moves.
So I understand why some families would say no.
art bell
Well, have you seen enough of this that, as a general rule, do you feel the law should be perhaps changed?
dr paul pearsall
I certainly think that the option should be wide open and nobody should be prevented from it.
harry browne
I don't think anybody should be forced to this.
dr paul pearsall
But there seems to be a strong therapeutic value on both ends for this.
Let me just give you one strong example.
There were two physicians who had two just charming little sons, and they doubted on these two little boys.
They wouldn't even go out for dinner.
And then they finally decided, we are going to have to go out, so we're going to interview babysitters.
They interviewed every babysitter.
They finally got one who was a registered nurse or new CPR to watch their kid.
They go out to the restaurant and they get the call that every parent dreads.
harry browne
Rush home.
dr paul pearsall
They rush home and one of their sons had drowned it in the bathtub.
harry browne
How this happened was the nurse went to the phone just for a few moments.
dr paul pearsall
You know, this drowning reflex in children, and he had drowned it.
They donated the heart to another boy.
harry browne
Didn't want to have anything to do with this.
dr paul pearsall
They were so hurt, understandably, and at least this heart was given to someone else.
Later on, a few years later, the mother said, I really wish I could see the recipient.
I believe there was a picture of this reunion in one of the articles that I published, actually.
But this woman is a physician now.
harry browne
So she goes to meet the recipient family and sees the little boy who has her son's heart beating in his chest.
dr paul pearsall
This little boy looks up at her, and I will never forget this phrase.
Says, Mommy, I missed you.
art bell
Oh, my God.
harry browne
Well, lots of other explanations for this, but everybody around is just...
dr paul pearsall
And so this woman...
art bell
Excuse me, how old was this boy?
dr paul pearsall
This boy at this point was about, I'd say, seven or eight.
art bell
Seven or eight.
And looked up at the bottom.
harry browne
But the transplant has been made four or five years ago.
dr paul pearsall
And again, I hate to sound like a melodramatic here, but that isn't even the whole story.
harry browne
Because then this woman, a physician, walks over and says, can I listen to your son's chest, the recipient mom's chest, son's chest.
She puts her head against this boy's chest and listens to her son's heart beating.
dr paul pearsall
At that moment, the recipient boy whispers to this mother of the donor, how is Auntie Gwen?
harry browne
Auntie Gwen, says this physician to me later, is her sister who was dying of cancer when her little boy was still alive.
unidentified
How did this boy know that?
dr paul pearsall
I asked the recipient mother, you have anybody in your family named Auntie Gwen?
Nope.
And then what made this story even more dramatic for me, and I witnessed this, is when this mother of the donor has her head against the chest of the boy, when they're done, they embrace.
harry browne
And the little recipient boy reaches up and grabs the nose of the donor mother and tweaks it, twists it like you would a little child, twist it.
dr paul pearsall
And this poor donor mother begins to cry.
And she said, I used to do that to my son all the time.
art bell
Oh.
Oh, my.
dr paul pearsall
And it just, it is very difficult.
harry browne
And every time the BBC or Germany television just followed me around for a few days and they said, we want to talk to your patients, I said, never again.
dr paul pearsall
Never again.
Because these patients, when they are mocked sometimes, as I said before, you've done so many shows on controversial and cutting-edge things.
harry browne
And so many people pay a horrendous price, Art, for doing this.
dr paul pearsall
So I've had to guard their confidence so, so carefully.
Heart Consciousness Transference 00:07:17
dr paul pearsall
And you have to remember, I'm a clinical neuropsychologist.
harry browne
I was trained to just worship this brain as the be-all-end-all.
But I have learned now that all these metaphors, everything we said about the heart, is literally true.
dr paul pearsall
It thinks, it connects with other hearts.
harry browne
You know, the brain's had its turn for a few decades.
dr paul pearsall
Maybe it's time to look at the heart.
art bell
But that's a transference of some kind of consciousness we're talking about here, Doctor.
You know, I did a show a few days ago on the subject of reincarnation.
And reincarnation is interesting.
During the break, my wife said, gee, what you're talking about sounds just like reincarnation.
Well, not quite.
With reincarnation, unless you search for these memories of some other life, they're not conscious memories.
And if they're affecting you, it is subconsciously more than likely.
So this is not like reincarnation in the sense that, my God, it appears some part of consciousness is being transferred along with the organ.
And that should be, we should now start to wonder about the nature of consciousness itself.
Not just memory, but that approach is consciousness.
I mean, that's a contemporary how-is aunt so-and-so.
harry browne
I think you're absolutely right.
I'm glad you said it, not me, but I think that's where the research is heading, Art.
We've always put consciousness in the brain, sort of.
art bell
Of course.
harry browne
Although most of the guests you've had on who speak about this know it's much more than that.
That we cannot separate.
The heart has such a unique, unique energy.
dr paul pearsall
And who among us hasn't felt it?
What mother listening to my voice now hasn't sensed in her heart something wrong with her child and felt it?
Think of all the shows you've done over the years, Art, that have had to do with telepathy, With remote viewing, with clairvoyance.
And very often we're always looking for, boy, the effect's always subtle.
It was very subtle.
harry browne
Maybe, just maybe, this research is offering some answers, not all.
art bell
Well, I think it's all coming back to this non-locality.
I think so.
That's what it feels like to me.
And I do all these interviews, and that's where I'm certainly headed, and I have a feeling it is where you're headed, too.
dr paul pearsall
I think you're right, because I think it demeans the importance of what we're talking about.
It's simply just putting an organ in somebody and some kind of special weird energy is transferred.
I think it's much more than that.
And that's what you're dancing around when you're talking about that.
As a scientist, I want to make sure I have my ducks lined up and make sure that these stories are verified and reported carefully.
And I know when the most recent publication was in the Journal of Near-Death Studies, and we did open-ended tape interviews, quoted verbatim, with transplant recipients, family members, donor family, and friends, and nurses and doctors where possible.
And even in that article, the stories were just dramatic.
art bell
One night I did something, you know, I'm all the time doing things that other people won't do.
And I just opened the lines one night in an open line night, and I'm going to do it again soon, too, real soon.
And I said, I only want to talk to people who have experienced clinical death.
And oh, my God, the stories I got were absolutely incredible.
Now, you said you experienced clinical death yourself.
dr paul pearsall
Absolutely, three times.
art bell
And yes, and do you have any memories of the time that you were clinically dead?
harry browne
Absolutely.
And I'm going to answer your question, but I've always been reluctant to do so because I'm concerned about credibility, and I never talk about them in lectures because it looks like I'm trying to hold myself up as the example.
art bell
Well, your credibility is established easily by reading your bio, which I did at the beginning of the show.
harry browne
And because it's very, I'm a scientist, and I know that some of the things I'm saying, I used to explain since I've studied the brain as a psychologist, and I think, well, this is due to Mr. Biddle firing at a lack of oxygen and death and all of these things.
dr paul pearsall
Let me answer your question.
art bell
Sure.
dr paul pearsall
All three times that I had died, I saw my grandmother.
In Hawaii, they call the word tutu.
There she is in her wheelchair, saying clear to me as could possibly be each time, pointing to her heart, which is why she died, her heart, saying, go back, you must tell them.
Go back, you must tell them.
Every time I went through this, I saw her.
The surgeons, when I was in for surgery for this cancer, said, even under anesthesia, which is bizarre, coming out of this, you would say, Grandma, tell them what?
Grandma, tell them what.
harry browne
So I've had that experience over and over again.
art bell
Do you remember the context in which you saw her?
I mean, can you compare the reality that's around you right now as you're on the phone with me with the experience you had with your grandmother?
In other words, was she solid?
Were you in a place you did not recognize?
Were you in a setting you did recognize?
How did this manifest?
dr paul pearsall
All three times, and again, this is my solo experience, it was not like where I sit now.
You and I talked about non-locality.
It was in a, to say the word missed is wrong.
It wasn't what I see here.
It was her, but it wasn't a visual image.
harry browne
It wasn't something I saw with my eyes.
dr paul pearsall
It's something I, you know what I'm going to say, saw with my heart.
art bell
Okay.
dr paul pearsall
It was an image, a perception of the heart.
It wasn't something that you would see in a picture.
And it was something that I felt more than saw.
And you mentioned reincarnation.
I don't know if you probably are familiar knowing you with Ian Stevenson's work.
art bell
Of course.
harry browne
Brilliant, careful researchers.
dr paul pearsall
Again, hundreds upon hundreds of cases, interesting to me and you, clearly, because these were children.
These weren't people saying I was Napoleon in the former life.
art bell
That's right.
I know.
dr paul pearsall
These were carefully done.
What I'm suggesting in my research, and others who are doing, looking at the heart, we've always looked for answers and whatever this consciousness is and this connection of consciousness in the brain.
I'm suggesting that it's certainly much broader than that.
harry browne
It certainly extends beyond the body.
dr paul pearsall
And remember, when the heart beats, it's energy.
It is energy.
And energy contains information.
art bell
Don't you suppose, Doctor, that the critics of this, and there still are critics of heart transplant, they just say, it's flat wrong.
Talking Transference Worries 00:07:34
art bell
In playing God, it's wrong.
The critics of this actually might take ammunition from what you're saying tonight to bolster their case.
dr paul pearsall
Right, I've been told that, and you're quite right.
harry browne
It's funny, you wonder what those critics so bad against heart transplant would do if their heart was failing totally or someone they love was losing their heart.
art bell
There was a commercial about that that ran on radio for a long time that was really, really good.
I think the fellow's heart or something or another was failing, and the doctor said, well, we've got a heart, you know, but it's from a black person or something or another.
Do you ever hear that commercial?
dr paul pearsall
I've heard about it, yes.
art bell
Yes, and of course, he ended up the alternative was rather immediate, and so all of a sudden his prejudice just melted right away.
dr paul pearsall
That's funny.
That's another example.
I was rounding with patients and saw a heart transplant patient, and the man had heard that he had received the heart of a black man, a white guy.
And he said, they should have asked me first.
harry browne
And I said.
art bell
You're kidding.
dr paul pearsall
Yeah.
harry browne
And I said, don't worry about it then.
dr paul pearsall
I said, we have a money-back guarantee here.
harry browne
I'm going to cut that out right now and get that right out of you.
art bell
Yeah, that's right.
dr paul pearsall
It's remarkable how he didn't want to have that done.
art bell
I'm sure.
dr paul pearsall
But anybody listening to my voice now that's had a family member with a transplant, such as me, or a child who's needed a transplant, or those waiting for organs tonight, you know, if I can bring a little bit of lightness to this, I went to Seattle to lecture on transplant and went to the transplant unit.
And they all wanted to hear me talk about this.
And it was a horrendously rainy, terrible night when we landed.
I was there an hour late, and I go into the unit, and I say, I'm so sorry.
harry browne
It's a terrible, rainy, slippery night.
dr paul pearsall
And they all said in unison, good, because they're all waiting for transplants.
And there's that kind of black humor.
And the photographer stands up on the stool to take our picture together.
And he almost falls.
harry browne
And this lady next to me, must have been about 50, very weak.
art bell
Goes.
dr paul pearsall
She says, if he falls, I get his heart.
harry browne
So I don't need to make light of this.
But transplant is a sacred thing.
art bell
Yeah, I know, but in situations like that, there has to still be humor.
There's day-to-day life, and you're hoping for a heart.
harry browne
Especially in those units, I lived on that transplant unit.
dr paul pearsall
We call ourselves a tribe of the transplanted.
And we would sit together late at night when the doctors wouldn't hear us, because, God forbid, we would be referred to a psychiatrist.
And these heart transplant patients would say, we're going to tell you this story.
But don't you tell anybody else.
Because there are heart transplant recipients out there who will hear this and say, this guy is nuts.
I've had anger from some of them.
art bell
Really?
dr paul pearsall
Because some people are more cardiosensitive.
They tune into this.
But I interviewed a man the other day that said, a heart is a pump.
I'm a used car salesman.
harry browne
And a pump is a pump, and a generator is a generator.
dr paul pearsall
That's all it is.
harry browne
And then I had one of the...
art bell
That's a protective reaction.
You see, and the people who are getting hearts, who get angry about it, are really protecting themselves because they don't want to bleed this because of the implications of it, obviously.
dr paul pearsall
And I understand it and defend it absolutely totally.
But the problem that we're, and I think you're dancing around this when you talk about consciousness, the one thing that's coming out in every kind of show you're doing, all these issues that are sort of out-of-the-box things that scientists are looking at, is this extension of consciousness beyond this limited view we have.
art bell
Laura, are you right?
dr paul pearsall
And that's hard for us.
And those of us who speak of it, like many of the guests you have and the pioneers that speak about this, really suffer for this.
harry browne
And they're seen as the fringe of this.
art bell
Yes.
harry browne
But I think that if we don't have, start, at least in my view, speaking as Hawaiian and as a doctor, start looking to a generation of the heart.
dr paul pearsall
We're going to start continuing to behave as the brain does, which is territorial by boundaries.
The brain is in a lethal alliance with its own body.
That's why the heart's getting killed by this brain.
It drives us beyond recognition.
harry browne
Who among us has not gone to bed at night and that brain won't let us sleep?
The brain says, oh, don't you go to sleep.
You better worry about this.
dr paul pearsall
You better be concerned about that.
If we can only let that heart energy come out.
art bell
More times than I can count.
And I have to sleep twice a day.
Doctor, hold on, we're at the bottom of the hour.
We'll be right back.
Dr. Paul Pearsall is my guest.
And we're discussing hard information, actually, about what's come along with heart transplants.
I'm Art Bell.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified
Take a ride.
Call Art Bell from West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First-time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
The Wild Guard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
And to call out on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nive.
art bell
My guest is Dr. Paul Pearsall.
And we're talking about transference of what?
Cellular memory, RNA, DNA, or perhaps, I don't know, if you listen to the stories, perhaps some kind of form Of consciousness.
We'll be right back.
tucker carlson
If you're tuning in,
art bell
I think it's probably important that you know that Dr. Persol, the magnitude of the person you're listening to, graduated as a distinguished scholar from the University of Michigan, did his postgraduate training at the Harvard and Albert Einstein Schools of Medicine.
Designed and served as chief of the award-winning psychiatric clinic at Sinai Hospital, was director of behavioral medicine at Beaumont Hospital.
Professor of Clinical Psychiatry and Neurosciences at the Wayne State University School of Medicine.
Has authored over 300 professional journal articles and 14 best-selling books, which, by the way, you can pursue on my website.
We've got links up there tonight.
Dr. Pearsall, you know, before too much time slips away, any other stories you might have first-hand knowledge on your part, I would love to hear.
Danny's Unpublished Poems 00:15:48
harry browne
Okay, I think that's important, Art, because the other stories I've told you, again, are not directly collected by me.
dr paul pearsall
This story is right off the tapes, published in the journal.
harry browne
This is an 18-year-old donor.
dr paul pearsall
He was killed in an automobile accident.
This is a quote from the donor's father, a biochemist, by the way.
harry browne
My son wrote poetry.
dr paul pearsall
We waited more than a year before we were able to even begin to clean his room and go through his clothes.
harry browne
We found there a book of poems he had never shown us, and it startled us.
dr paul pearsall
He wrote the poems when he was only 12 years old.
harry browne
He'd hidden them.
We sobbed for hours after we read them.
He wrote of seeing his own sudden death.
He played guitar, and he was really a talented musician and very, very exceptional and talented kid.
dr paul pearsall
Then there's a long pause with tears on the tape.
He was a son any parent would have been proud of, a really perfect, loving son.
Long pause again.
Those words, I mean, Danny's words, I can't get them out of my mind.
They were about how Danny felt he was going to be killed young.
And not only that, Doc, you've got to hear this.
He saw himself donating his heart to someone.
Can you imagine thinking that at age 12?
unidentified
No.
dr paul pearsall
At Danny's age.
art bell
No.
dr paul pearsall
Tate continues.
We remember that he had done a class project in sixth grade about organ donation.
He told us then he wanted to donate his heart if anything happened to him.
But we thought he was just talking like a lot of little young teenagers do about issues of dying and death.
But he wasn't at all depressed.
harry browne
He never was.
dr paul pearsall
Actually, it was almost a matter of fact about it.
When my wife and I met his recipient, it was like, my God, it blew us away.
harry browne
She had to just like him.
She had his mannerisms.
dr paul pearsall
Now, I interviewed the recipient, the eight-year-old female.
She had had endocarditis and heart failure, and she got Danny's heart.
Listen, Art, and art listeners, to what she said on tape, verbatim.
harry browne
When they showed me pictures of their son, my heart began to race faster than ever, like it was going to fly out of my chest.
dr paul pearsall
It was like looking at someone I had known forever.
I had always thought I had the heart of a young man in me.
harry browne
I told my parents I did, and I sort of fell in love with him.
dr paul pearsall
They didn't even know it was a man's heart.
Neither did I.
It was like he had been my lover for years before he gave me his heart.
I started telling his mom and dad things about him they said they could have never imagined anyone knowing.
When they played some of his music for me, I could even finish the phrases in his songs before I heard them.
harry browne
Can you imagine that?
dr paul pearsall
My name is Danielle, and his was Danny.
Okay, Doc, it's a coincidence.
harry browne
It's a coincidence.
dr paul pearsall
All right?
harry browne
I'm sick of it.
dr paul pearsall
And then she starts to cry.
Tate continues.
harry browne
I was always afraid to talk about being in love with my donor, even before he gave me his heart.
I thought they would send me to a shrink for sure.
I know you won't believe this.
dr paul pearsall
Well, maybe you would.
But after I got my new heart, I picked up my brother's guitar one day and could actually play it a little.
I never touched it and never could play it before.
I could never do that.
Not just drum it.
I mean, I could actually play the guitar.
I shocked my brother, and he never knew how I could do it.
harry browne
Is it Danny playing from inside me?
dr paul pearsall
My heart is playing it, not my brain.
I know that.
Now I'm writing songs that come from the heart.
I call them songs from Danny and Danielle's heart.
And she breaks into tears.
art bell
Wow.
A direct interview.
dr paul pearsall
That was right off the tape.
harry browne
I don't know how many more you want me to give you.
art bell
I'll take as many as you can give me.
That's incredible.
I mean, yes, I'll take any you have.
dr paul pearsall
I should finish the tape part because the recipient's father then.
Remember, I tried to interview somebody as many people as I could.
harry browne
The recipient's father of Danielle was a college chemistry professor.
dr paul pearsall
And here's what he said.
harry browne
I'm reading right off the tape a manuscript.
dr paul pearsall
Until she got sick, Danielle was what you might call a real hellraiser.
She had been a hyperactive all through school until she got really, really sick.
But after her transplant, she became much quieter and calmer than she ever was before.
She said she felt like she had fallen in love with her donor.
She had lots of energy, but she was more reflective and introspective somehow.
harry browne
She wanted to get guitar lessons and begin writing songs.
dr paul pearsall
That was really not at all like her.
harry browne
She would have made fun of that.
dr paul pearsall
When we saw the pictures of her donor, I saw my daughter grab her chest with both hands, smile, and break into tears.
It was like she was greeting someone she had known forever.
harry browne
I know this is all weird and stupid stuff, probably just a real strange string of remarkable coincidences, but it is pretty interesting stuff, isn't it?
art bell
He asked.
Interesting.
dr paul pearsall
I guess that's mild.
art bell
That's good enough, yes.
You know, then that brings up this question.
Somebody asked it on the community.
I've got a computer next to me and they pepper me with questions.
That's a lovely story, of course.
But not all donors are nice people.
Sometimes donors are really nasty people who get hit by cars or shot because they were involved in something awful or who knows why people.
And so have you run into any cases where the effects, the transference of whatever it is, the consciousness that's transferred is not welcome because the person who made the donation wasn't a good person.
dr paul pearsall
Sometimes, and it's interesting before I answer your question completely, this controversy really came up because they were in some states contemplating that prisoners who had committed pretty bad crimes, if they would donate an organ, not the heart, of course, but an organ, could buy time off their sentence or avoid the death sentence.
Then the question became, would you want the kidney of a mass murderer, for example?
Well, when you talk to people who are dying, they'll say, give me a kidney.
art bell
Yes.
dr paul pearsall
But then you ask me, well, have there been cases like this?
I've only had one, and we could speculate together as to why.
Maybe something at death happens.
art bell
Well, just before you explain that, let's ask you the question.
You're on deathbed, your heart's hailing, and the only heart available is that of a mass murderer who was just shanked in prison.
Knowing what you know, what would you do?
harry browne
I'd take it in the New York Minute.
And the reason for that is that we must understand that this heart is joining a system, a full system of cells of 75 trillion other cells.
dr paul pearsall
The memory of your other heart is still there.
So the question is not that you're going to transform yourself completely into a murderer or a mass murderer.
But I don't want to back off your question, Art, because there are people, for example, who tell me, I wouldn't even want to wear the watch that Charlie Manson wore.
art bell
That's right.
harry browne
So this raises, the interesting thing to me as a scientist is that that raises those questions.
dr paul pearsall
I am no guru.
harry browne
I don't have the answers.
dr paul pearsall
I only know who someone who was dying that I would have given anything.
And I know that if I had not had my transplant, I would have died.
And those are things that your listeners would have to look at, each in their own way.
I did have one case where the wife said, since my husband got that heart, he has been the most, he used to be the most passive, kind man, and now he just is the most aggressive, swearing, cussing, angry man I've ever seen.
And it turned out he had the heart of somebody who had been a prisoner.
art bell
Oh.
dr paul pearsall
So, however, over time, over time again, things changed.
Things changed.
harry browne
And that's why even raising this issue on your show, to be open enough to at least discuss it so that somebody can talk to their doctor and not be sent to the psychiatrist because they're delusional and say, let's at least learn from this.
dr paul pearsall
That's all I'm asking.
You know, there was an old statement you might remember by William James that said, it is enough to prove that all crows aren't black if you can prove just one is white.
art bell
Yeah, that's right.
All right.
Here's another good, really good question.
Does a blood transfusion confuse the heart, cause it to adapt to the donor's needs and not the recipients?
Or does blood itself, which of course courses through the heart quite frequently, also, in other words, when you get a transfusion, what are the possibilities?
dr paul pearsall
You had asked me earlier, and I should have answered your question, all organs seem to carry with them these cellular memories.
Even eye types of transplants, certainly kidneys.
We see a lot of that with kidneys, especially manifested as changing in food preferences to match the person who had donated the kidney.
But to answer the question about blood, blood is just, of course, just billions of cells coursing through there.
But the answer is how we began your show tonight.
That heart is an immensely powerful organ, as we've talked about earlier.
harry browne
And it is pulsating with immense energy.
dr paul pearsall
But I got a call from Sweden the other day saying to me, and maybe this addresses your caller's question, he said, Dr. Piercell, I read your book, but you're wrong.
You said the heart is not only a pump, it's not a pump at all.
I said, no, wait a minute, what are you talking about?
And he said, the pump is not strong enough to do what you're describing, two and a half times around the earth.
harry browne
So what we think is that the blood has, these cells in the blood have memories of their own, and they're coming to the heart and swinging through it like you would.
The heart acts more like a swing, like a child on a swing, and is shoved through by the blood.
dr paul pearsall
So your caller's question is that certainly blood donations then certainly also carry these memories.
The question is, to what degree?
art bell
Yes.
And most people, I assume, that if they had some new little thought or concern, would never in a million years necessarily think it came as a result of, say, a transfusion.
It would just be a new thought or a new remembrance that was perhaps somewhat vague or even specific.
It would be sort of just perhaps disregarded sense.
That's very...
dr paul pearsall
And by the way, don't forget we are all donors anyway.
Remember I said that heart energy is going beyond the skin?
Yes.
Hearts connect.
You and your wife are contrived this after the show.
harry browne
You can stand facing each other.
dr paul pearsall
We've done this with our patients for two years.
harry browne
Join right to left hand.
Your hand's a little sweaty, you know, and they put an EKG on.
dr paul pearsall
They put a little moisture there.
Right to left hand.
harry browne
You put the extra hand you have left over on your heart, and you stand there looking at each other.
art bell
You feel the energy.
dr paul pearsall
And you'll feel the hearts fall into sync.
harry browne
They will start to come into sync.
dr paul pearsall
When I was dying of cancer, I remember feeling my wife's heartbeat in mine and kept it going.
I've done this with audiences where we will play Hawaiian hula, which is at about 72 bits per minute, and play a very beautiful Hawaiian piece of music and have the real cynical executives stand up with their spouses and hold right hand to left and close their eyes, feel the music.
You will feel that energy exchange.
You know, you've got powerful scientists such as Dr. John at Princeton University's Engineering Anomalies Laboratory talking about such things as love energy, L energy, this fifth type of energy.
harry browne
Maybe it's energy.
dr paul pearsall
Maybe it's electricity.
Maybe it's non-locality.
We have to start asking, but if your listeners will try this with someone they're close to, they will have a profound sense of what it's like to connect with someone else's heart.
art bell
So much we have to learn, so much we don't know.
And I just, you know, a lot of people are going to, some people will react angrily to this.
You know, I can see that in some of what I'm reading here.
Some react angrily.
They don't want to believe this.
And I guess I do understand why they don't want to believe it.
It just too shocking to everything they've believed all their lives.
dr paul pearsall
Because the brain is telling them that.
I'm not being facetious when I say the brain is concerned with self.
It thinks, I'm going to protect me.
This can't be true.
This is impossible.
How could this happen?
I know you've had Dr. Larry Dossi on your show, and he wrote a brilliant article called The Right Man Syndrome.
He talked about the right men who constantly extend the research goalposts, who won't open their mind and hearts to such things as non-locality.
For heaven's sakes, Bell's theorem that says that two things once attached are attached forever across time and space, which is quantum physics fact, blows some people's minds.
That's a very hard concept to accept.
Yet we know that that's good quantum physics.
So even Einstein couldn't accept quantum physics.
So we have to start really thinking differently.
It's been the purpose of your show for years.
art bell
Then how, what about some cutting-edge research that's going on now?
The kind of stuff where they're going to either grow hearts that will work in humans or grow human organs like hearts in pigs.
dr paul pearsall
Right.
harry browne
One of my patients the other day said, if I get a pig valve, am I going to oink?
dr paul pearsall
No, you're not.
You're not going to do that.
harry browne
Because as I said, the effect typically is subtle.
dr paul pearsall
As we began this show, I said, I regret that I shared most of these very dramatic stories because I suspect that these are being reported by the superstars, just like you know there are some psychic superstars who are able to do some profound things.
art bell
Oh, yes.
dr paul pearsall
But all of us have that ability.
harry browne
All of us have that ability.
There's no doubt in the data anymore that psych experiences are real.
dr paul pearsall
Any scientist who denies that is not reading the journals.
But the effect is subtle.
Same with the heart.
So those people who may call into you and say, this is stupid, and this can't be, and this is new age gobbledygook, and this is witchcraft, that they're reacting the same way as when Einstein may suggest that mass and energy are the same thing.
art bell
Listen, the witches knew this a long time ago.
dr paul pearsall
Well, hasn't every culture?
harry browne
The Apaches would kill the buffalo and eat the heart to get its energy.
art bell
Yes.
dr paul pearsall
Every indigenous medicine, what's the fourth chakra?
The heart.
What does Ayurvedic medicine, Chinese medicine, do?
It takes the pulses and diagnoses by pulse.
It's our modern mechanical medicine that is focused primarily on the brain running the body in a lethal alliance, and the heart is simply a pump sending blood.
art bell
So would you say that those who did that, who ate the heart for the energy, well, they could have been right?
dr paul pearsall
It's hard to say because I wonder.
art bell
It's hard to say no.
harry browne
Yeah, it's hard to say no on this, but I doubt that it's going to be a digestive problem.
dr paul pearsall
But if we're really talking, as you and I were speculating before, all connections are there.
art bell
You know, Doctor, there have been mass serial killers who, believe it or not, essentially believed the same thing, some pretty awful cases, but I mean, they actually came up with the same explanation that they could assume that person's power by some cannibalistic act.
Soul Transplant Questions 00:15:02
dr paul pearsall
Remember again from all of this, every story I've told you so far, even though the effects are profound, listen to the emotion behind this.
It's almost always a loving emotion and a subtle effect.
Even that last story I read to you from the tape, this was not some, they describe it with such caring and sensitivity.
If there's any common theme in every journal article we published about these cases is there's a gentleness and caring motive for this behind both sides of this.
That's a very important lesson.
Maybe, just maybe, that's teaching us that this consciousness we're talking about is a pretty loving kind of consciousness if we tune into it.
Maybe it's the brain that has such a bad attitude.
art bell
Well, there's the donor to think about for a second.
I mean, if we're talking, we tend to, of course, talk about the recipient because the recipient is alive and we can get stories from the recipient.
But if you're considering being a donor, for example, don't you have to consider the possibility that some of your consciousness, since we don't know so much about all of this right now, that some of your consciousness may live, and one thought pattern might be that you don't want that to occur.
I mean, as you consider whether or not you want to be a donor, and I know I'm talking heresy here because you all need donors, but that would have to be something you would think about, that perhaps you would live on in some way that you probably ought not to in God's world.
I don't know.
harry browne
Absolutely.
dr paul pearsall
And you know what?
Even before we started this research, patients who were considering donation would raise those questions.
art bell
Really?
dr paul pearsall
Absolutely.
So we're saying that's why we want to study this.
But our answer to this is, please understand what we're saying.
We're talking about transplant, but we're also saying that the heart is a miraculous organ.
harry browne
We are already exchanging our consciousness with one another all the time, that heart consciousness.
dr paul pearsall
You can't tell me, Art, that even over the phone, 1,000 miles away, when you're talking to a guest, that you don't have some kind of sense of the energy, if I can use that word.
art bell
Oh, no, I do.
I do.
I'll hold it right there.
We'll be right back.
Dr. Paul Pearsall is my guest.
Oh, this is remarkable.
I'm Art Bell.
Good morning.
unidentified
I've been where the eagle flies Threwed his wings cross all the skies Kissed the sun, touched the moon But he left me much too soon His labor.
art bell
Once again, Dr. Paul Pearsall.
Doctor, I'm getting a lot of questions on the computer screen that sort of follow where we were going with the discussion of consciousness, which for many people will automatically flow into the word soul.
And so a lot of people are asking questions like, what if by using another person's organ, the soul of that other person essentially remains until the death of the recipient.
Has this ever been discussed?
It's touching ground, I know.
harry browne
It really is.
And some of the flack we get are sometimes from very religious people who say you're tampering with the soul.
As researchers, though, we're saying, look, certainly I'm not going to be so arrogant to say I understand what the soul is, but most researchers understand from the data that life is certainly a sacred process.
dr paul pearsall
And whatever the soul is, most of us had better start to broaden our idea of it because it is not just a limited, selfish thing.
All of us are connected.
I know that phrase has been thrown around so loosely, but it is profoundly so.
And I found a case when we were on break that might address that question you just raised.
art bell
Okay.
dr paul pearsall
If I can just tell you, it was right off the tape again.
Again, documented cases.
art bell
Let her rip.
dr paul pearsall
Have your listeners listen carefully for the nature of what happens in this transplantation.
harry browne
Because this is a subtle thing.
dr paul pearsall
You've got to listen carefully.
This is a 41-year-old male heart transplant patient.
He received the heart of a 19-year-old girl who was killed when her car was just struck by a train.
harry browne
Terrible event.
dr paul pearsall
Here's what he said.
I felt it when I woke up.
harry browne
You know how it feels different after a thunderstorm or heavy rain.
dr paul pearsall
You know that feeling in the air.
That's kind of how it felt.
harry browne
It was like a storm had happened inside me or like I had been struck by something like lightning really hard.
art bell
The smell of ozone, the freshness.
Yeah.
harry browne
And can you hear the energy he felt from that accident?
dr paul pearsall
You hear the transplantation seems to be of the event.
There was a new energy in me, he said.
I felt like a 19-year-old again.
harry browne
Got the age right, by the way, by coincidence.
I'm sure I got a strong young man's heart, got a woman's, because sometimes I can feel like a roar or a surging power coming right at me.
Remember the train?
art bell
Oh, yeah.
dr paul pearsall
I think he was probably a truck driver or something.
harry browne
He was probably hit by a big semi that just smashed him to smithereens.
art bell
Wow.
dr paul pearsall
Do you hear the subtleness there?
He didn't get a lot wrong, but he got the energy of that train smash.
His wife says he's like a kid again.
He used to struggle to breathe and had no stem at all.
Of course, he was very sick.
The transplant changed that.
Well, you'd expect it.
He keeps talking about power and energy all the time, though.
He says he has had several dreams that he's driving a huge truck and hit head-on by it.
That's all he can talk about.
So do you hear how that's being transformed?
harry browne
That's a subtle kind of process, but that energy of that accident seemed to have been still stored in that heart.
art bell
That's true.
dr paul pearsall
And it came through.
harry browne
I got a funny one for you if you want one, because most of these are so strong.
dr paul pearsall
This one made all of the scientists laugh.
art bell
Go right ahead.
dr paul pearsall
This is a 35-year-old female heart transplant recipient.
harry browne
Her donor, unknown to her, was a 25-year-old prostitute who was killed in a stabbing.
dr paul pearsall
Here's what she said.
I never really was all that interested in sex.
I never really thought much about it.
Don't get me wrong, my husband and I had a great sex life, but it wasn't a very big deal.
harry browne
Now, I tire my husband out.
dr paul pearsall
I want sex every night.
And I masturbate two or three times a day sometimes.
I used to hate X-rated videos, but now I love them.
harry browne
I feel like the slut sometimes, and I do strip teasers for my husband when I'm in the mood.
dr paul pearsall
I would never have done that before.
I'm almost ashamed to tell you.
harry browne
When I told my psychiatrist about this, he said it was a reaction to my drugs, and I needed help.
dr paul pearsall
Then I found out that my donor was a young college girl who used to work as a topless dancing sir.
harry browne
She was also a prostitute.
art bell
Would imagine the husband, if he heard advice like that, pull her out of therapy so fast.
unidentified
Well, I'm ahead of you, Art, because here's what the husband said.
dr paul pearsall
Now that I'm, not that I'm complaining, mind you, but what I have now is a sex kitten.
Not that we do it more, but she wants to talk about it, do it, watch tapes.
harry browne
We have sex, but it's different.
unidentified
No worse.
dr paul pearsall
It's just a lot different.
And he goes on and on.
I don't want to get us off the air here.
art bell
No, That's all right.
I get the idea.
But that's incredible.
dr paul pearsall
It's just an incredible story.
harry browne
So the reason for saying the funny one and the more serious one here is when they say about what's the soul, I don't know.
dr paul pearsall
But I'm telling you, we are all connected.
And I know speaking now as a Hawaiian, and I haven't done that much tonight.
When I wrote Miracle in the Maui, I talked about Maui, Hawaiian concept.
Most Westerners think of the soul as inside them.
Hawaiians and indigenous people think of the soul as among us.
art bell
Among us.
A shared among us.
Again, the non-locality aspect.
harry browne
Here we go again, Art.
I hate to keep coming back to that.
art bell
No, no, that's fine because that's what everything's coming back to.
I want to run something by you.
It's kind of away from what we're discussing right now in a way, but yes and no.
I have talked personally to a lot of people who have relatives who have not received a new heart, but they have gone through bypass surgery.
dr paul pearsall
Yes.
art bell
And there are millions of stories out there, Doctor, about people's personalities becoming modified after that kind of surgery.
That they come out completely different people, according to relatives.
And I wonder if you've heard any of that.
And I don't know that it has one thing to do with what we're talking about right now, but it's a curious thing.
I've heard some.
dr paul pearsall
I don't either, Art, but the answer is an unequivocal yes.
art bell
Really?
dr paul pearsall
And it came up when we were doing the research, and then these doctors and nurses would sit us down and say, you know, you're talking about these transplants, but with bypass, we're seeing these changes.
Now, from a scientific point of view, of course, this is a frightening process.
harry browne
These people were in pain and sick, and maybe they're feeling better, so you'd expect certain changes in them.
They're on medications.
dr paul pearsall
They've had anesthesia.
I can give you 20 reasons for that.
art bell
Well, I know, but once the blood supply is essentially restored, then you would expect to see the person perhaps go back to what they were prior to when they got sick.
dr paul pearsall
But the heart has been tampered with.
art bell
And they're seeing other manifest changes, big changes.
harry browne
Well, if we're going to get really far out here, what is the name of the process of that surgery?
dr paul pearsall
Bypassing the heart.
art bell
That's true.
harry browne
Think of it.
art bell
What it is.
dr paul pearsall
We bypassed it.
We lost it for a while.
harry browne
One of the things I learned, this is how stupid a researcher can be, is our patients with donors, recipients, excuse me, would say to me, please, when they know I'm open to this kind of talk, not to the other doctors, I'm always the weird one they'll tell this to.
dr paul pearsall
Please, doctor, let me say a very long goodbye to my heart and thank it for what it did.
We have to understand that heart will beat sometimes for minutes and longer outside the body.
I've held the heart in my hand.
I have felt that energy.
You ask any transplant surgeon.
I have sat the diseased heart next to the healthy heart that's going to go in the body.
And I have seen them, not touching now.
I've seen them fall into sync in the same beat as if they are communicating with one another.
Every cardiovascular surgeon will tell you they have witnessed the same thing if they're honest, if they're honest about it.
Some don't want to even deal with this.
As you said earlier, it's a lot easier to get angry and defensive and just say, oh, the body is just a mechanical thing and only the brain is sacred.
But what did you know that weeks before the brain fully forms, the heart beats before the brain begins to develop?
art bell
I've heard that, yes.
dr paul pearsall
It's an absolute fact.
And it beats.
harry browne
You want to talk about strange, from a kind of a vortex of energy, here we go, that word again, forms, the heart, that area begins to throb, forms into a heart, and then the brain forms.
dr paul pearsall
From that point forward, the heart is still talking to the brain by the atrial naturatic factor, atrial peptide, by many, many types of neurochemicals and transmitters.
harry browne
Back in the 80s, in 1987, they declared neurocardiology, that the heart has a brain of its own.
dr paul pearsall
It can think outside the body and in.
art bell
Well, how could a surgeon not notice, as you pointed out, a diseased heart and a healthy heart side by side, just as the switch is being made, falling into sync?
Or is that something that just mentally lock it out?
dr paul pearsall
Yeah, you know, it's mechanical, it's a coincidence, it might happen, but everybody knows.
If you put a heart cell, no other cell in the body, but the heart, in a Petri dish, in a medium, and then you take a cell from someone else's heart and put that cell in there, they will fall into sync.
harry browne
You've heard of the Hundred Monkey phenomenon.
art bell
Oh, yes.
harry browne
It sounds so redundant, but it looks like this kind of non-locality, this energy connection, hearts connecting with one another, is not just metaphor.
dr paul pearsall
So when we say he wears his heart on his sleeve, my heart goes out to you.
You've hurt my heart.
You broke my heart.
It's the heart crying out for attention.
Very few hearts are murderers.
Brains are.
Brains are very selfish, territorial.
That's what they're designed to do.
And how many times have you heard people say, she or he has a good heart?
That speaks to that concept of the soul, the spirit.
This research is just beginning, but it may offer some ways to understand all of these things, soul, spirit.
What about the power of prayer?
harry browne
These hearts go out to each other.
dr paul pearsall
Is there something involved in that?
art bell
It's a good thing it's 2002 because not that many years ago, you'd have been crucified, guaranteed, burned at the stake, whatever.
Expressing all of these views.
harry browne
Absolutely.
dr paul pearsall
But don't forget, the witches that were burned at the stake were, of course, mostly women who had the audacity to question the medical model of those days.
art bell
That's right.
harry browne
That's why they were burned.
dr paul pearsall
This was purely an economical, political burning.
That's true.
The same stuff has happened to Ian Stevenson, John Mack.
harry browne
I'll bet you could name me 20 researchers who have tried to get people.
dr paul pearsall
I am not on your show to say, Paul Pearcell's got it right.
harry browne
Don't study this anymore.
dr paul pearsall
We're begging them, read this.
Look at the data.
harry browne
I was so upset the other day at a meeting, somebody said, there's no research on this.
dr paul pearsall
I said, did you look in the lease in the back of my book?
If you don't want to read journals, it's full of bibliography.
Look at that.
unidentified
Go to the library.
harry browne
I don't care if you buy the book.
dr paul pearsall
Check me out.
You have every right to ask me, how do you know?
unidentified
Who says so?
dr paul pearsall
Not just because Paul Pearsall says so.
Talk to cardiovascular surgeons.
Talk to transplant surgeons.
See what they say about this.
Don't just yield to those who are, as you said, so angry because this threatens their system of belief.
harry browne
Open their hearts.
dr paul pearsall
Open your heart.
harry browne
Open medical students.
You don't have to have a hole in your head to have an open mind.
art bell
Well, a heart transplant surgeon surely has a very close connection to the recipient.
And these questions really, really must come up after a transplant.
After somebody finally, you know, they're failing and boy, all of a sudden now they've got a new heart.
I mean, these questions come up, and I wonder how the average transplant surgeon handles it.
dr paul pearsall
Well, most of those that I've talked to, I mentioned Nimitzaz and others, have been sensitive to it and doing it in the closet because they've been afraid to speak of this.
Patients have talked about it and talked about it for as long as this process has been going on.
harry browne
But some of the pioneers in this wanted to be sure it was just seen as a pump for every question Art Bell is asking tonight.
The Transplant Olympics 00:05:52
harry browne
The politics of it, the fear of it.
dr paul pearsall
Are you putting somebody's new soul in there?
harry browne
Are you tampering with immortality?
dr paul pearsall
It raises all of those questions, Art.
art bell
Well, then here's one for you.
We live in an interesting time.
Now, the first artificial hearts were gigantic things.
harry browne
Right.
art bell
The person was attached to them.
Now, they're smaller things.
Soon, I guess we'll have a heart that is small enough to be completely contained within the chest and maybe even the power supply for it.
I agree, the whole thing in the chest, smaller and smaller like everything else.
And so eventually we will have this totally artificial heart, I think.
dr paul pearsall
Most likely sometime.
art bell
And I wonder, considering all you've said tonight, what the implications of that might be.
harry browne
It might surprise you, but maybe not all that significant for this reason.
Don't forget, that heart has had residence in that body for a long time.
dr paul pearsall
Even though we're talking about the impact of a donor's heart, your heart's still your heart's neighborhood.
harry browne
Your heart has pumped its energy, its form of energy, through that body for a long time already.
So that the idea of a mechanical heart, and then we really get into something way far out.
I'm sure you've done some shows on the work at the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Laboratory.
art bell
Oh, well, you bet I have.
harry browne
Where they have done, boy, you want to talk about a program that's also had to struggle against, oh, what are you guys doing?
You know that in a very subtle way that people are able to alter solid objects, aren't they?
They're able to make changes on computer screens.
dr paul pearsall
They're able to move pendulums by intent.
art bell
Yes, I know that.
dr paul pearsall
Millions, and I'm not exaggerating, millions of replications of data doing that.
So, isn't it logical that even a solid kind of mechanical object might be imbued with the energy or non-local forces of the body that's already there?
art bell
Yes, of course it's possible.
And so, I guess that answers my question.
Yes, of course it's possible.
unidentified
Wow.
art bell
All right, I've so dominated your time here.
I do want to get to take a few calls here after the bottom of the hour.
But any other stories you have like the ones you've been telling?
harry browne
And as I said, I want to be sure that the ones we're telling now, because we told some others before, are the ones that I've given.
dr paul pearsall
But I think one of the funniest ones that I did not collect was one of my students who had visited the Heart Transplant Olympics.
There were enough people who've had transplants.
harry browne
I should call it the Transplant Olympics.
dr paul pearsall
It wasn't just heart transplant.
In Australia.
So I can't totally stand behind this because it was reported to me by one of my research students who went there.
harry browne
He met, now we'll really see if your listeners are listening.
He met a man who had raced against another man in the marathon there, the man to whom he had donated his heart.
dr paul pearsall
Now, I'm hoping people are awake enough to say, wait a minute, what'd you just say?
Yeah, watch the man who had donated his heart had a healthy heart, but he had cystic fibrosis, a lung problem.
harry browne
He had a heart-lung transplant.
dr paul pearsall
So they donated his healthy heart.
art bell
I see.
dr paul pearsall
It's called a domino transplant.
art bell
So they were, they were, oh my gosh.
harry browne
You follow my point?
art bell
I certainly do.
dr paul pearsall
Now, here it comes.
harry browne
This man who had donated his heart to this other man raced against the man to whom he had donated his heart in the marathon.
dr paul pearsall
My student interviews them afterwards.
harry browne
Dream interview.
dr paul pearsall
I wish I could have been there because it was not good research, not carefully done.
harry browne
And the donor had lost in the marathon to his recipient.
dr paul pearsall
And he told my student, you know why I lost?
unidentified
My heart wasn't in it.
It just broke up and laughed.
dr paul pearsall
But I don't know where we are in time, but that's not the full story.
art bell
That's not the full story?
harry browne
Oh, the real story is then my student sits down with his wife across the table from the donor and his wife, and the recipient and his wife.
And they get an interview.
Now, here's a great interview.
dr paul pearsall
I wish I could have been there.
harry browne
This was published in the Australian news.
dr paul pearsall
So they're sitting there, and as they're talking, the recipient is married to a very quiet Japanese lady.
Very quiet.
art bell
I tell you what, that's a great place to hang people up and make them wait through the break.
It's quite a story on radio.
So, quite a story coming up.
Stay right where you are from the high desert.
I'm RFL.
And this is Coast to Coast AM.
Dr. Paul Pearsall, stay right where you are.
Well, all right, doctor, we're back at it, so finish your story.
harry browne
The story was interesting.
dr paul pearsall
The two couples were sitting across from each other, and my research student is sitting there, and they're telling stories, and he's taking notes.
harry browne
And suddenly, this very quiet Japanese wife named Kim, sitting next to the recipient, yells and interrupts the whole thing and says to the woman sitting next to the donor, Is your name Susan?
And she said, My God, how did you know?
And she said, Because my name is Kim, and my husband's yelling out your name when he's making love to me.
art bell
Oh, my God.
harry browne
Now, I can't verify it, but that story has run around our clinic since that ever happened.
dr paul pearsall
I don't want any of your listeners to use as an excuse tonight, however.
art bell
Right.
Listen, a million people are going to want to contact you.
Is there any way to contact you?
Do you have any email address you dare give out or any other contact injury?
harry browne
It's hard or we're swamped and I want to protect the company, but you know, the best way to do it is just get a hold of some of the books, and I think some contacts might be done that way through the publisher.
Procurements and Perceptions 00:03:52
art bell
Okay, and of course, we've got a link to all the books on the website right now.
I would like to bring a couple of few callers on here if I can.
dr paul pearsall
Sure.
art bell
I've dominated your time.
East of the Rockies are on the air with Dr. Paul Pearsall.
unidentified
Hi.
Hello?
art bell
Yes, sir.
You're on the air.
Where are you?
unidentified
Yeah, well, I'm in Ohio right now.
I've worked in the operating rooms for about eight years.
And when I was up in Eastern Maine Medical Center up in Maine, you know, I've told this story a few times.
No one really believes it.
I've done about 20 procurements.
And, Doc, you'd understand some of this.
When I was in anesthesia tech, basically, what I did, you know, assist the doc, make the slush, put the heart and all that in.
So one night we were using a room that we don't normally use.
And, you know, once you get the heart out, you know, anesthesia is done.
Right.
You know, they shut the machine down, we leave, and then they get the liver and the kidneys and all that.
Well, we were done about 2-3 in the morning, shut the room down, and shut the OR down, locked it up, and we go into the lounge and we're eating our lunch.
Well, about 15 minutes later, this is a donor story.
It's a little different than what you've been talking about tonight.
That's right.
One of the doctors that's on call comes into the lounge and starts yelling at me.
I said, What's going on?
You know, the nurse, the circulator is there, the surgical tech.
And he starts yelling.
He goes, When I talk to you, I want you to answer me.
Don't just walk away.
I said, What are you talking about, Doc?
I said, I've been in here for 20 minutes eating lunch.
He goes, Well, I just went into the room to get my head ramp, and you were in there, and you walked out the back door.
And I asked you a question, and he just kind of waved and said, like, bye to me, and just walked out into the scrub area.
And he goes, Next time you do that, he goes, I'll write you up.
And then the nurse goes, Doctor, you know, there's no one in this OR but us three people.
He goes, she goes, you just must be imagining it.
She goes, no one's in that room.
That was the room that we did the procurement in.
And the doctor goes, look, there's a little guy, just his size.
I ask him a question, he walks away from me.
The man that we did the procurement on was about my size.
His eyes just kind of, you know, he didn't want to fight us.
He goes, you've got to be kidding.
I said, no, doc.
I said, there's no one in there but us.
I'm the only man here.
I've been here for 20 minutes.
He just kind of looked at me.
I said, we just did a procurement in there an hour ago.
And you've never seen a doctor carrying pale white in all your life.
He just looked at us and walked away.
But like you said, we told this story.
He would never acknowledge it.
art bell
All right, I appreciate the call.
Thank you.
That's way out there, but not particularly way out for this program.
dr paul pearsall
Well, you know what?
He raises talking about way out, another issue that some of the people asking me about my research asked me.
harry browne
And they said, you're talking about the recipient's connection to the donor.
Now, this is going to really stretch your imagination.
dr paul pearsall
Donor is gone.
harry browne
But as your caller just said, what about the donor's connection to the recipient?
Non-Local Connections 00:14:32
harry browne
If we are really embracing non-locality in its fullest extent, then isn't it possible that that donor is still connecting with that recipient?
art bell
Well, if we're embracing it, then it's almost a sure bet.
dr paul pearsall
Yeah, and so that really raises complicated issues here and may deal with what you said you were encountering when you're talking about people having I know when Dr. Schwartz is on and talks about people contacting those who've passed over, that's right.
Maybe, just maybe this is playing some role in that first time caller line.
art bell
You're on the air with Dr. Paul Pearsall.
unidentified
Hi hi um, mr Bell, thank you for taking my call.
dr paul pearsall
You're very welcome.
art bell
Where are you?
unidentified
I am in Lakewood Ohio, which is by Cleveland.
Okay, I only have two questions for dr Piersall.
I have no stories.
Uh, I would like to know if uh, are the synchronized pulsing of the cells from two different people also applicable to people in animal blood like perhaps, mrs Awkins, the chicken heart.
Are you familiar with mrs Aukins?
No, i'm not.
No oh, she's been around for nearly a century.
I mean it's, it is a chicken heart that has been alive for nearly a century.
Uh, that's not in the people heart field, of course.
art bell
So perhaps, and my other question is, in other words, does an animal, would an animal heart uh synchronize in the same way with a human heart, or even the blood cells?
No, it's a very good, it's an interesting.
dr paul pearsall
That's an interesting question and I have to answer that we've certainly not done research on that.
unidentified
Well, people and animals together, perhaps would the blood still beat in synchrony.
dr paul pearsall
Well, you know, I don't know if this is addressing your question, but one thing we have found is that uh, this is apocryphal, but I had a blind patient who had terrible heart cardiac arrhythmias and the only time those arrhythmias would steady out was when he had his hand on the heart of his dog.
unidentified
I've I've heard of this.
harry browne
You follow what I mean?
unidentified
Oh, yes, that's what I mean.
dr paul pearsall
But not only that, we've had several children, I'm sure you know of this, who have had seizures, and they have dogs that sense the seizure far before it happens and are able to go and throw the child down and hold the child down so they don't get hurt.
harry browne
So I think that in some way addresses what you're talking about.
art bell
Yes, it does.
unidentified
It does.
I have another question, if I may.
art bell
You may.
unidentified
Cloning has been a reality for decades, also nearly a century, since almost the turn of the century, actually.
And transplants are fine for what they do, but when can we start looking forward to regeneration of our own organs the way our liver already regenerates itself?
I want to be able to regenerate everything in my body.
dr paul pearsall
Would that be nice if we could do that?
art bell
But we are getting close, as you pointed out.
harry browne
Absolutely, we are getting close to the bottom.
art bell
I don't know cloning of individual organs.
unidentified
Right.
harry browne
And I really don't, that's not outside of my area of expertise.
I don't know.
dr paul pearsall
But it does raise several other issues, doesn't it, in terms of what we're talking about tonight?
art bell
Oh, boy.
dr paul pearsall
And they're beyond my competence right now.
harry browne
But I think your question is a very important and interesting one that has to also be addressed when we do such things as cloning.
Because what does this mean in terms of the energy, the memories, the electromagnetic aspects, and all that stuff we've talked about for these three hours?
Very important issue to research.
art bell
Sure is.
Wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Farsoll.
Hi.
unidentified
Thanks.
This is Susan in the Detroit area.
art bell
Susan in Detroit.
You're going to have to kind of yell at us on here.
You're not too loud.
Go ahead.
unidentified
CK, Olivia.
art bell
Right.
dr paul pearsall
Stay Detroit.
unidentified
Hi there.
I'm a WSU person, too.
dr paul pearsall
Oh, I had my transplant in Detroit.
unidentified
Yeah, you know, I'm confused.
Well, this is not the main question.
Was it a bone marrow transplant or a heart transplant?
harry browne
A bone marrow transplant.
unidentified
Okay, I got it.
dr paul pearsall
The Charter Hospital.
unidentified
Oh, yes, of course.
elena in winnipeg
They have the first heart transplant machine there on display.
unidentified
You may remember.
harry browne
I do, for sure.
As I said earlier in the show, I spent a lot of time among everybody who was getting transplants of all kinds.
unidentified
Oh, wow.
This is fabulous.
elena in winnipeg
Listen, I've heard a couple of comments and then one quick question.
I've heard the lungs described as the pump, and the heart then is the valve.
When engineers are presented, it was just a schematic drawing representing the heart but not identified that way and asked what it is.
They say it's a valve.
And it's interesting, think about that, whether you think the lungs might be the pump.
harry browne
Well, I don't know if you heard earlier in the show.
unidentified
Oh, I did, about the blood swinging through, so I don't know.
I said nothing about the lungs.
harry browne
Yeah, I think that there's a good rationale for what you're saying because I'm not so sure either that our model of the heart is just the pump is accurate either.
unidentified
No, Valve.
elena in winnipeg
Anyway, the other thing is, do you think that the Bach remedies out of England would be of any use for the people suffering from nightmares?
Once they make their stories known and they're properly recorded as data, and before their own system stabilizes, maybe they could be helped with those.
And if that's not familiar, I can give you a couple of quick references.
harry browne
I only know a little bit about it, but I think the answer would be yes to that.
dr paul pearsall
I think when I asked that earlier, that might be helpful.
elena in winnipeg
Yeah, get the Philip Chancellor case book.
He's the author of the case book.
And then MacTeild Schaefer out of I think Switzerland has done a wonderful book which concentrates on using them for psychological purposes rather than any tie-in to the physical.
harry browne
That's a very good lead.
elena in winnipeg
Okay, last of all, there is a circle that comes back from the brain to the body in my mind, and that is that while the brain may be selfish, there is an unselfish, very universal aspect to that neocortex, which does not have any sight, any physical sight, but it does have a very wide reach.
And that's the part of the brain which can make the circle back to the loving heart, I think.
harry browne
I think you're right, and I hope I'm not embarrassing Arthur, but I do believe on the website that Art's going to have somebody who wrote a book called Why God Won't Go Away.
unidentified
Oh, wonderful.
dr paul pearsall
And he's a very careful researcher who has identified what you're talking about in terms of when we fully, really concentrate.
You know, I always tell my patients that you know you're healthy if you can stop thinking without falling asleep.
harry browne
You know what I mean by that?
And when you do that, the areas of the brain that make you selfish, separate you from other people, shut down and you feel at one with everything.
dr paul pearsall
I'm sure Art School will be doing whatever that man is on.
elena in winnipeg
There's one researcher in particular who runs that circuit for us.
Okay, well, he didn't run it back to the heart.
unidentified
Yeah, I guess he did.
dr paul pearsall
Thank you.
unidentified
I'll let you go.
art bell
All right, take care.
Somebody in Tawn, Nashville, Tennessee, asks an interesting question, and that is, do you notice any difference between the effect of heart recipients and the effect of multiple, I mean, sometimes it's hearts and lungs and multiple organs.
We're doing some amazing things.
Is the effect at all magnified, or is there not enough research yet with multiple transplants?
harry browne
Since I'm doing a lot of the research, there's not been enough of that kind, but the answer so far is a tentative yes, because the cases that we've had when there's been this heart lung transplantation, particularly, which is a lot of tissue going in and a lot of cells, yes, the effect does seem to be more found, more profound.
But you're going to have cynics now say, well, that's because the surgery was more radical.
dr paul pearsall
They were sicker people.
harry browne
There's arguments for it.
dr paul pearsall
But the answer is absolutely, unequivocally, yes.
I had a patient the other day who had a new liver.
Just to show you, we're talking about the heart.
And this was the most calm, gentle woman prior to her surgery.
harry browne
She had to leave the room when her husband watched football.
dr paul pearsall
It was too violent.
harry browne
She got the liver of a boxer.
dr paul pearsall
Now she's a pro-rationaling, boxing, violent fan.
harry browne
So it shows you it's not just the heart.
art bell
That's amazing.
All right.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Pearsall.
Where are you, please?
Cincinnati.
I'm sorry.
I didn't get you up there quickly enough.
All right, you're on the air.
unidentified
Okay, I'm glad to talk to you, Art.
And for the doctor, you were talking before about how the heart, you know, remembers things and that.
And even in the Bible, it states how Jesus even said, let not your heart be troubled.
And even it says, God knows what's in your heart.
art bell
There were many such references, yes.
dr paul pearsall
That's a very, very important point you're making, because aside from Western science, indigenous science, scripture, religion has always talked about the importance of the role of the heart and a pure heart.
unidentified
Yeah, because it even says that Jesus said, first thou shalt love the Lord with your heart, then with your soul, then with your mind.
dr paul pearsall
Well, it doesn't say think it over first, does it?
art bell
That's exactly right.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Pearsall.
unidentified
Hi.
Aloha, Art.
art bell
Aloha.
Oh, Aloha.
Hawaii and back to Hawaii, huh?
unidentified
Yeah, volcano on the big island right across the water from the doctor.
Oh, aloha.
Aloha.
Pahea.
Oh, Mai Kai.
Oh, Ovauke Kahi.
Art, this is probably the best show, and I've listened for years that you've ever done as far as really getting into the heart of things.
No fun intended.
art bell
Thank you.
unidentified
And doctor, and today's, I guess it was today's advertiser, this lady who has very kindly donated a kidney.
dr paul pearsall
Oh, I saw it.
I didn't get to read the article.
unidentified
She's on Maui, and she just felt that she should feed back into the system, and she volunteered her kidney to anyone who could need one.
And sure enough, there's a fellow on Maui who needs one.
They're compatible.
And the surgery is going to be performed at St. Francis in the next couple of days.
harry browne
Isn't that something?
And what a fortunate person, because with a loving lady like that, just think of the energy he's going to be getting.
unidentified
That fellow is going to have a charmed life.
And also, I want to make a big plug.
I'm an organ donor, and I wish everybody listening would consider it as the nicest thing you could do for everybody.
harry browne
So, as I said earlier, it's a sacred, it is true aloha.
You know, Hawaiians speak of the na'au from the center of pain, and that's what if there's anything that comes out of the show, if anybody's thinking about donation, do it.
unidentified
Well, aloha, kakoa, pal.
Aloha.
art bell
Take care.
dr paul pearsall
All right.
art bell
Well, Aloha.
Doctor, what are the statistics?
How many people before their demise agree to organ donation?
Do you have any idea?
You sent analyzer?
harry browne
I think it's going to, I don't know, it's a very low percent.
The saddest thing I do, Art, is to go around on rounds and see these patients praying and praying for their life and for an organ.
dr paul pearsall
And to see how, and they feel so badly when they see them wasted.
harry browne
The other.
art bell
Well, that was going to be my next question.
Should that stop?
Should that waste stop?
Should there be, I don't know, you hate to say it because it's a personal thing and there ought not be laws about personal things like this.
But, gosh, you're somebody about to die and, you know, wasted organs.
dr paul pearsall
That's how most of us feel, but you certainly can't legislate it.
harry browne
And, you know, it's certainly a loving, caring act.
So it's got to come from, here we go with that pun again, the heart.
It's got to be something you really want to do.
dr paul pearsall
so education yeah it's just a matter of your show is done marbles tonight because okay that man just said from Hawaii uh...
harry browne
if there's two or three listeners out there say that doesn't I'm gonna really think about this You've done a miracle.
art bell
Well, they will.
Guaranteed.
Wildcard line, not a lot of time.
You're on the air with Dr. Pearsall.
unidentified
Hello.
This is Mike from Amargosa calling.
Yes, sir.
I'm listening on KNYE broadcasting from Prump on 95.1 FM.
That's the way to do it.
When I was a teenager, I read the teachings of an Indian spiritual teacher who said that whenever people say I from all over the world, say I referring to themselves, they point to the same spot, two digits to the right of the center of the chest between the two breaths.
So I've observed this for about 25 years now, and 100% of the time when people have said I without thinking instinctively, they have always pointed to the same spot.
And so I was just wondering if Dr. Piersall has ever observed to see, in terms of the seat of consciousness, where people with their finger actually point to automatically, even young children from all over the world when they say I.
dr paul pearsall
We tested even Art on that earlier in the show, and he did that.
And it absolutely works.
And it's funny, not only that, when we tell somebody a very funny joke and it's really point there.
If it's a shock or a sad thing, you've seen that?
harry browne
Oh, my goodness.
dr paul pearsall
Oh, my gosh.
art bell
Yes.
dr paul pearsall
They point to that.
So it seems like almost our body's trying to remind us.
unidentified
Hey, have a heart, will you?
art bell
There you are, caller.
unidentified
All righty.
Thank you.
art bell
Thank you very much.
Now, Doctor, I know that you have a recent book on the subject of miracles, which we have.
Well, I guess in a way we've been talking about miracles tonight of a sort.
But you've written a new book about miracles.
dr paul pearsall
A miracle in Maui describes some of this and some of these things we're talking about with non-locality and how this stuff can really happen.
art bell
So from my perspective, tonight's show could just be like chapter one for the radio, and we've probably got enough material to do a whole nother show.
harry browne
Are you kidding?
You get a Hawaiian going.
You could probably, you could just leave Art.
unidentified
I'll just talk.
art bell
Yeah, well, that's been suggested, too.
dr paul pearsall
There's tons.
harry browne
I know that they didn't want to get into the miracle, issue today, but the research on miracles, again, pushes the envelope far beyond this.
art bell
Well, we should do an entire program on that is what I am a really important follow-up to this show.
Okay, and so There is contact information if people will go to your books.
And your books are on my website, all linked on my website.
harry browne
Absolutely.
dr paul pearsall
Those people who really need the research, too, if they go back to Miracle and Maui or The Hearts Code, they'll find the data to support what we've said tonight.
art bell
Then I think not only the average person, but perhaps some heart transplant surgeons and people in the medical field probably ought to do a little reading as well, eh?
harry browne
Absolutely.
I think that the time has come to really consider this as a serious research issue.
art bell
Doctor, thank you so very much for being here tonight.
What an excellent guest you've been.
You'll be back soon, trust me.
harry browne
Thanks for all the support, Art.
art bell
Good night, Doctor.
unidentified
Aloha.
art bell
Aloha, indeed.
All right, well, folks, that's it for tonight.
What an incredible interview that was.
That definitely will go down as a classic.
From the high desert, a little town called Perump.
I'm Art Bell.
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