Art Bell - 20021116_Art-Bell-SIT-Dr-Paul-Pearsall-Cellular-Memory
Aired: 2002-11-16
Duration: 01:53:38


=== Stupid Worms' Memory Mystery (04:06) ===

[00:00:09]  This is Coast A Coast AM on the Premier Radio Networks.
[00:00:17]  Okay, Dr. Pierzall, welcome to the program.
[00:00:19]  Aloha, thanks for having me.
[00:00:21]  Well, it's just great to have you.
[00:00:23]  You're in Hawaii someplace or another.
[00:00:25]  Where are you?
[00:00:26]  I live on the island of Oahu in Honolulu.
[00:00:28]  Oh, Main Island.
[00:00:29]  On the main island, yep.
[00:00:30]  All right.
[00:00:32]  You are going to talk about something that is just absolutely, it just rivets me.
[00:00:40]  Because there's just appears to be so much that we don't understand about ourselves.
[00:00:47]  And, you know, to the average person, doctor, it seems utterly impossible that any sort of memory or any sort of anything could transfer in one of our lower organs, our heart, our liver, our lungs, something like that.
[00:01:03]  It's just, you know, it's nice to have, but it's not the brain.
[00:01:07]  Or at least we didn't think that it was the brain or that there was any, could possibly be.
[00:01:14]  I mean, it's science fiction almost to imagine there could be transference of any kind of memory with the transference of just an organ.
[00:01:23]  But do you believe that to be true?
[00:01:25]  Well, you have so many really excellent scientists on your show, and I don't think it really matters what I believe.
[00:01:32]  I think what really matters is what does the data show us?
[00:01:35]  And the data shows us if we really look at this, and you're quite right, Art, that so many people are so threatened by this.
[00:01:41]  But I asked them to look at the journals.
[00:01:44]  And why are they so surprised when we use a word like cellular memory?
[00:01:48]  I know I was at a scientific meeting the other day, and somebody said, even that phrase sounds stupid to me.
[00:01:54]  And I said, well, let's just stop a moment here, first of all.
[00:01:57]  If you go back to high school and think of that one single cell paramecia, it has no brain at all.
[00:02:04]  Right.
[00:02:05]  Yet it remembers how to swim, finds food, it mates, it recognizes and invades predators.
[00:02:11]  It's got a memory of what we call in science a memory of function.
[00:02:14]  That is, it always remembers what to do.
[00:02:16]  So if one cell will do it, think of 75 trillion cells.
[00:02:22]  Is that genetic?
[00:02:24]  In other words, even one cell has a genetic structure, doesn't it?
[00:02:28]  Well, it does, and these simple cells can be passed, these simple memories can be passed on.
[00:02:33]  It shouldn't surprise us because we all know about RNA, rubinucleic acid, and DNA.
[00:02:38]  And you know what was strange?
[00:02:40]  In 1966, think how long ago this was, in the journal Nature, which is a reputable journal.
[00:02:46]  Oh, yes, indeed.
[00:02:47]  It's not one of these far-out things.
[00:02:49]  It's one of the problems in me doing the research in this area is that wherever there's gold, there's counterfeiters.
[00:02:55]  And some of these weird stories and weird things start to dominate when the real science is strange enough and hard enough to accept.
[00:03:03]  Because in 1966, at UCLA, scientists were able to transfer memories from one organism to another by transferring the RNA.
[00:03:13]  What they did is typical kind of boring science, I guess, but they took 400 little tiny worms, divided them into two groups.
[00:03:21]  One they conditioned to respond to light and then moved toward food.
[00:03:26]  The other ones were left just stupid.
[00:03:29]  And they sacrificed the worms that they had trained and then transferred cells from those simple worms.
[00:03:36]  Now, look how simple level we're talking about, to the stupid worms.
[00:03:40]  And the stupid worms automatically reacted to the light and pursued the food.
[00:03:45]  This data has accumulated and accumulated, and this evening we'll talk about certainly some of the dramatic stories.
[00:03:51]  And some have happened even within hours since your producers asked me to come on the show.
[00:03:56]  Really?
[00:03:56]  And I wrote these down because I said I've got to share these first with you guys because these stories come constantly, even when you apply our good scientific standard to dismiss these and be skeptical.

=== Heart's Cool Impact (14:29) ===

[00:04:10]  But I hope tonight, as your listeners tune into this topic, they will realize that skepticism is everything.
[00:04:16]  Doctor, how many surgeons who do transplant work do you think would laugh and walk away at the concept versus those who would, because of their own experience, let's put it that way, not laugh and not walk away?
[00:04:33]  That's the interesting thing, Art.
[00:04:35]  When I published the book called The Heart's Cool with the first data and then two or three journal articles after that, I thought, boy, am I going to catch flack.
[00:04:43]  Do you know the only group from whom I have not caught flack has been the heart transplant surgeons.
[00:04:48]  Really?
[00:04:50]  Take just one very well-known transplant surgeon, Mimit Oz at Columbia.
[00:04:54]  Yes.
[00:04:54]  I remember one day out here just paddling in my canoe outside the ocean, and my wife calling me and say, you better get in here.
[00:05:00]  Dr. Oz is on the phone.
[00:05:02]  And I thought, oh, boy, he's read this stuff.
[00:05:04]  I'm going to catch it.
[00:05:05]  Yeah, here we go.
[00:05:06]  And I ran in, and he said, I've got to tell you, I just finished your book.
[00:05:10]  It's brilliant.
[00:05:12]  You're right.
[00:05:12]  It's time this stuff came out.
[00:05:14]  Really?
[00:05:15]  About 10 years ago, there was a doctor, I don't remember his name, who interviewed several, several heart transplant surgeons.
[00:05:21]  The only one who remained skeptical, even very negatively so, was Dr. DeBakey, who said, quote, it's simply a pump.
[00:05:29]  But you know what surprised me about that, Art?
[00:05:31]  What?
[00:05:31]  It's not just a pump.
[00:05:33]  That's the most powerful mechanical pump.
[00:05:35]  It is certainly a pump, too.
[00:05:36]  But just think, if you describe the heart, now I'm going to do this from memory, so I hope I don't make mistakes that doctors here.
[00:05:42]  But it can pump blood six feet in the air.
[00:05:44]  Think of the power.
[00:05:46]  It beats at least 100,000 times a day.
[00:05:49]  It's got more than 3 billion of pulsations in an average lifetime.
[00:05:52]  Two gallons of blood per minute through the whole body through a vessel system that could be wrapped around the planet two and one-half times.
[00:05:59]  Holy moly.
[00:06:00]  It energizes and sets the rhythm for all of our 75 trillion cells.
[00:06:04]  Its electromagnetic field is 5,000 times greater than the strength of the field produced by the brain.
[00:06:11]  We can measure heart energy with magnometers 10 feet away from the body.
[00:06:16]  I know you've had an excellent scientist on, and he's done some articles with me, Gary Schwartz.
[00:06:21]  Oh, of course.
[00:06:22]  Brilliant, careful scientist, also researching areas that are sometimes approached with great skepticism and cynicism.
[00:06:29]  And his work has shown that the electrical information patterns generated by the heart are detectable in our own brainwaves and listen to this, other people's brainwaves.
[00:06:38]  Now, Gary told me one time that they were doing a study, and they had all these little electrodes on somebody's head for an electroencephalogram, and they're doing all the measuring.
[00:06:46]  But one electrode was left free by mistake.
[00:06:49]  And they couldn't understand the readings they were getting.
[00:06:52]  And it turned out that electrode was picking up the heart energy of the examiner.
[00:06:56]  No kidding.
[00:06:57]  So when somebody says, you know, it's just the heart after all, that's because that's your brain saying it.
[00:07:03]  And we always joke over here that the brain lost its mind.
[00:07:06]  It lost its mind because it's that heart that's the most powerful organ in the body.
[00:07:11]  It's the one muscle in your body that, unless it's diseased, is just as young at autopsy after death when you're older as when you were younger.
[00:07:20]  We could go on tonight about this, but when we talk about the heart, this is some kind of organ we're going to be talking about.
[00:07:27]  You already laid a number of facts, in fact, worrisome ones to me.
[00:07:31]  I remember a shot movie about the space shuttle saying, you know, 5 million moving parts all built by the lowest bidder as they got ready to launch, you know, and you're telling me the heart is a lot more complex than that.
[00:07:42]  Well, you aren't kidding.
[00:07:43]  Just think of it.
[00:07:44]  You know, the heart is capable of emitting 5,000 millivolts of electricity.
[00:07:50]  The brain, 140 millivolts.
[00:07:52]  I think some people, maybe a lot less than what I've been dealing with over here.
[00:07:56]  But I can tell you this, the Voyager spacecraft circling around over there in Saturn sent back its energy with 10 millivolts.
[00:08:04]  So if you think that that heart is not something special, we should be listening to the ancient Hawaiians, to the ancient Egyptians, who used to mummify the brain of the heart and throw away the brain.
[00:08:15]  Do you believe that there would be a proportionately less amount of cellular memory transference with other organs, liver, lungs?
[00:08:28]  Would there be a varying amount?
[00:08:30]  The way you describe the heart, very interesting.
[00:08:34]  There might be more transference with the heart, do you think, or not?
[00:08:37]  I actually think so, and that's an excellent research question.
[00:08:41]  I not only think so again, I know so.
[00:08:43]  And how do we know that?
[00:08:44]  By some of the interviews we'll share later on in the show, by the data we've collected, because the heart is unique.
[00:08:50]  It's right in the center.
[00:08:52]  Right.
[00:08:53]  I just gave you a whole documentation from memory of the power of this organ.
[00:08:57]  It is immensely powerful.
[00:09:00]  And then we also talked already a little about cellular memory.
[00:09:03]  Now, you take those millions of cells.
[00:09:04]  We know the heart has 40,000 neurons in it.
[00:09:09]  Years ago, they formed a field called neurocardiology, endocardiology, knowing that the heart has hormones in it.
[00:09:16]  It has substances we used to think were only in the brain.
[00:09:20]  But we now find them in the heart.
[00:09:23]  A substance called atrial naturitic factor.
[00:09:26]  It's a factor we call a balance hormone.
[00:09:28]  It keeps the body in balance.
[00:09:29]  That's in the heart.
[00:09:31]  It looks to us in our research that the heart reacts to signals in our environment faster, and yes, I said faster, than the brain.
[00:09:39]  So if we're going to put that heart in somebody else's chest, it is awfully naive to think that that powerful organ isn't really doing something more than we thought it did.
[00:09:49]  Well, but you know, if you prove that, doctor, then you raise ethical questions for hearts, transplant surgeons that have never been raised before.
[00:10:02]  I mean, it's tough enough as it is right now.
[00:10:05]  And I wonder if you've been told that by some of them, because it's obvious to me.
[00:10:11]  If you prove what you're telling us tonight, and I have a feeling you will to this audience, then they've got ethical problems that go beyond the ones they've got already.
[00:10:21]  Well, you know, it's a good news for me as a scientist is that's actually just the opposite.
[00:10:26]  We'll talk a little later.
[00:10:27]  I'm a transplant recipient, not of a heart, but a bone marrow transplant, because I almost died of cancer, as you described earlier.
[00:10:33]  And the good news here is because transplant is such a sacred process that when we interview these donor families and recipient families, as we'll discuss this evening, this is a source of relief, not fear or ethical dilemma.
[00:10:46]  Because are we to say that by taking that sacred gift, it's nothing but a piece of tissue?
[00:10:52]  It is not.
[00:10:53]  It is a sacred gift.
[00:10:54]  And the research we'll present tonight actually documents how important that is and how gracious a gift that is rather than alarming people away from it.
[00:11:04]  Okay, I guess I get that.
[00:11:07]  A piece of the donor, more than just a pump, a physical pump, then goes to the recipient.
[00:11:15]  Isn't it almost, and I know this is awfully radical to say, but isn't it also a way almost of being immortal?
[00:11:24]  Yeah, I guess in a well, in a way, it's a sort of immortality.
[00:11:31]  I'm not sure that as I consider immortality, I consider consciousness, which is a whole other subject we could talk about.
[00:11:40]  Oh, that's for sure, yeah.
[00:11:42]  But certainly, at least in a sense, yes, sure.
[00:11:45]  It's a continuation, and from a Hawaiian point, they have a word called lokahi.
[00:11:49]  We are all connected, and as you'll hear tonight, these transplant stories in some ways are, and I'm sorry I published them because some of them are so dramatic, and we'll tell some of them tonight.
[00:11:58]  Okay.
[00:11:58]  And that they cause what we call in Hawaii chicken skin.
[00:12:00]  You have to just please yourself to get the goosebumps.
[00:12:05]  But it's the only way we're ever really going to understand more about the nature of ourselves, the real nature of ourselves.
[00:12:14]  There's just not enough people looking at these questions.
[00:12:17]  That's right.
[00:12:18]  That's why I'm so appreciative to have the time to share this because it's just not been, you have to understand that I published this book, Heart's Code, in 1998.
[00:12:26]  Only this year have they come from the BBC, from Germany, from Spain, from Russia to talk to me.
[00:12:32]  Because I think now when you publish enough data, even if they're stories, sometimes a lot of stories told with care and collected carefully become legitimate data worthy of listening to.
[00:12:42]  And I'm going to tell you something.
[00:12:43]  As somebody who does a nightly talk show, I'm a little disappointed in some ways in the American media because what I'm finding, and of course I deal with stories, you know, that are out on the edge of every field.
[00:12:56]  Right.
[00:12:56]  I'm finding that I'm getting more interesting current data from the BBC than I am from American major outlets of a similar size.
[00:13:06]  I mean, it's not even a close call.
[00:13:09]  They're all over a lot of stories.
[00:13:11]  And it's just, I'm kind of sorry.
[00:13:13]  have to go to the bbc to get these things i wish i could be getting them from cbs and nbc and for you right after the They were the first ones to pick this up.
[00:13:20]  There you are.
[00:13:21]  They went to Oxford to present it.
[00:13:22]  They've been over there for four years.
[00:13:23]  Yeah.
[00:13:24]  This is the first mainland show to cover this topic in any detail with me.
[00:13:29]  You're kidding.
[00:13:30]  The first one.
[00:13:31]  When they had this book come out, you know how authors push for it to get on shows and they want a PR.
[00:13:36]  My concern is to get this data out.
[00:13:38]  Gary Schwartz and I had published this article more than two years ago.
[00:13:42]  And now, just now, some of the media is picking this up.
[00:13:46]  But I mean, this is the great America.
[00:13:48]  This is the place that everybody comes when they're really sick, you know, as a last-ditch effort.
[00:13:56]  If they can afford it, they fly to America and they go to the very best.
[00:14:00]  And so how can this be?
[00:14:04]  Well, I'm afraid we can talk, that's be a whole other show, the status of medicine in the United States, because it's really a very mechanical approach in medicine.
[00:14:12]  And, you know, even with all the modern medical marvels, we can only explain 46% of the variants.
[00:14:19]  That is to say, modern medicine only knows 46% of why a person gets cancer, why they get a heart attack.
[00:14:26]  I just lectured at a medical school the other day, and I pointed out, you do realize, don't you, that more than half the people who have a heart attack have none of the heart attack risk factors.
[00:14:37]  What is that?
[00:14:39]  That's comforting.
[00:14:41]  And the other thing that makes me, and I'm going to get some trouble tonight with my doctor colleagues, but who among us doesn't know that person who has violated every health rule and been a health reprobate their whole life and lived forever, practically?
[00:14:55]  And the person who followed every health rule.
[00:14:58]  I'm hoping for that, by the way.
[00:15:00]  Me too.
[00:15:02]  I know when they diagnosed me with stage four cancer, I've never smoked.
[00:15:05]  I don't swear.
[00:15:06]  I think I'm a nice guy.
[00:15:07]  I do everything to show aloha in caring.
[00:15:10]  And I thought, and they misdiagnosed my cancer miserably.
[00:15:14]  So I think what's happened in medicine, and certainly it offers many miracles and modern things to do, but it's tended to not to be a blended medicine that looks into the things that you and I will examine tonight.
[00:15:30]  I guess I do want to ask you about being diagnosed with the stage four cancer and for being who you are, being a doctor yourself.
[00:15:40]  Hold on, Doctor.
[00:15:41]  We're at the bottom of the hour.
[00:15:43]  It's hard to imagine how a doctor who would fully understand the implications of the diagnosis of stage four cancer would take the news.
[00:15:52]  Probably not very well.
[00:15:56]  Or perhaps I should broaden it and say that most doctors would not accept that news very well at all.
[00:16:03]  Perhaps not even as well as the average person.
[00:16:06]  I don't know.
[00:16:07]  We'll ask.
[00:16:08]  Anyway, Dr. Paul Pearsall is my guest, and we are going to be telling you some fascinating stories.
[00:16:16]  And by the end of the night, you'll believe something you did not believe before.
[00:16:20]  I'm Art Bell.
[00:16:21]  This is Coast to Coast AM.
[00:16:37]  Tonight's presentation of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell and his guest, Dr. Paul Pearsall, is an encore presentation.
[00:16:46]  Some of them want to abuse you.
[00:16:50]  Some of them want to be abused.
[00:16:55]  Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
[00:17:01]  East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
[00:17:06]  First-time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
[00:17:11]  And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
[00:17:17]  To reach Art on the Toll-Free International Line, call your ATT operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
[00:17:26]  This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
[00:17:30]  Certainly, as my guest is Dr. Paul Pearsall.
[00:17:33]  We're talking about some incredibly interesting things that you probably didn't know about yourself.
[00:17:41]  I certainly didn't know about myself.
[00:17:43]  I didn't know all that about the heart, did you?
[00:17:45]  But there's so much more to tell.
[00:17:47]  we'll be right back to tell a very quick little story on I was a medic in the Air Force.
[00:18:12]  And of course, as a result, I work in a hospital, and I work in one in Amarillo, Texas.

=== Intuition Saves the Day (09:31) ===

[00:18:17]  And one day, a girlfriend of mine, this was when I was 20 years old, said, What's this on your shoulder blade?
[00:18:25]  You know, it's a big lump on my shoulder blade.
[00:18:28]  Something you wouldn't notice, right?
[00:18:30]  Your bed partner certainly would.
[00:18:32]  And I said, oh my God, I don't know.
[00:18:34]  I went in, and of course, I knew the doctors because I worked with them every day, and they knew me.
[00:18:39]  And so I went into this doctor, a captain whose name I will not mention for his sake.
[00:18:45]  And I said, take a look at this, Doc.
[00:18:48]  And he said, oh, my.
[00:18:50]  He said, we're going to have to go get that right away.
[00:18:52]  Well, turned out it was a great, it was really big, a big tumor.
[00:18:57]  It was a big, nasty old tumor.
[00:19:01]  And, you know, they took it out and sent it off for the pathology.
[00:19:06]  And in those days, you had to wait.
[00:19:08]  It took, I forget, two or three days, you know.
[00:19:12]  And at the end of that time, he, oh, he was so somber, he called me into his office, you know, took me off duty and called me into his office and sat me down and looked me in the face.
[00:19:22]  And there was this long silence.
[00:19:24]  And he said, well, you've got about six months.
[00:19:29]  You know, so I went totally ashen.
[00:19:32]  I turned utterly ashen white.
[00:19:36]  And he took about a two-second take of just sitting there and then totally cracked up and fell on the floor.
[00:19:45]  And ha ha ha.
[00:19:46]  Funniest thing here, he couldn't stop laughing.
[00:19:49]  He was on the floor for five minutes while my color slowly returned.
[00:19:54]  And so for a few seconds, Dr. Pearsall, I was there.
[00:20:00]  And so then, what's it like for a physician to be diagnosed with stage four?
[00:20:07]  Well, you know, doctors are no different than anyone else when it comes to these types of things.
[00:20:13]  What was interesting and pertinent to what we're discussing tonight, Art, is that I wasn't shocked when they told me I had cancer.
[00:20:20]  No.
[00:20:21]  I had felt in my heart, which was something my colleagues laughed at because it sounded like new-age gobbledygoot to me.
[00:20:29]  You knew you were sick.
[00:20:30]  I said not only that, Art, I said, I think I've got cancer.
[00:20:35]  I'm feeling tired.
[00:20:36]  I'm under the weather.
[00:20:37]  And they said, ah, you're stressed at the clinic.
[00:20:39]  You're running this.
[00:20:40]  You're doing this.
[00:20:41]  And I begged them to do these tests.
[00:20:43]  And they said, it's just ridiculous.
[00:20:44]  So I ordered my own CAT scan.
[00:20:47]  And I could feel it in my heart.
[00:20:48]  And I'm sure your listeners will agree with that phrase.
[00:20:51]  We use that phrase a lot.
[00:20:53]  It's in my heart.
[00:20:53]  My heart goes out to you.
[00:20:55]  Sure.
[00:20:55]  We'll talk tonight about that is no longer metaphor.
[00:20:59]  The heart literally thinks, connects with other hearts, and feels.
[00:21:03]  So I felt that I had this cancer.
[00:21:05]  So finally, after six months of agony with pain that I just cannot describe, I finally got the CAT scan.
[00:21:14]  I hear people in my own hospital crying during my CAT scan.
[00:21:18]  So this is not good news.
[00:21:20]  Yeah, not good news.
[00:21:21]  They come out and they say, you have a soccer ball-sized tumor in your hip.
[00:21:26]  You have, I don't know why they always say six months.
[00:21:28]  They do seem to say that a lot, don't they?
[00:21:30]  Yeah, I guess.
[00:21:31]  Which, pertinent to your first guest in the issue of time, you know, as if physicians could give a time limit to this kind of thing.
[00:21:37]  It's ridiculous to say a phrase like that.
[00:21:39]  But they said, you've got about a half year to live.
[00:21:41]  Basketball size.
[00:21:42]  Yeah, massive.
[00:21:44]  And then they said, there's not much we can do.
[00:21:46]  We'll try.
[00:21:47]  Went through chemotherapy, and I won't bore your listeners with my long story.
[00:21:50]  And I described it all in Miracle in Maui because I wanted to get it out to the medical community and let them understand what we mean by miracles, not these old kind of weird kind of things.
[00:22:01]  But something profoundly powerful happened.
[00:22:03]  Had they listened to my heart, had I even listened earlier to my heart, might have been diagnosed earlier.
[00:22:09]  And here's all these people now filling my heart, and I mean that literally, with hopelessness, with despair, and I certainly don't embrace, and we can talk about that tonight with any callers or anybody else.
[00:22:20]  I'm not embracing this idea that if you have the right attitude, you're going to live forever.
[00:22:25]  And if you love enough, that's just ridiculous.
[00:22:29]  I know why people die.
[00:22:30]  I've got the answer.
[00:22:31]  We're mortal.
[00:22:33]  And I'm tired of that kind of, I hate to sound angry about it, but I heard a lot of that, that if you had the right attitude, you would have lived.
[00:22:39]  That wasn't the point.
[00:22:40]  But the point was that they were giving me a death sentence and not allowing me to heal in my way.
[00:22:47]  And here we are now.
[00:22:48]  That's maybe almost 14 years ago.
[00:22:50]  I feel you'll get a laugh out of this art.
[00:22:52]  I go for my physical exam about a year ago.
[00:22:55]  And you're always worried, even if after you've gone through something like this.
[00:22:58]  Of course, it'll come back.
[00:22:59]  Oh, I just, oh no.
[00:23:00]  So I get a call, and the doctor says, you've got to come in and talk to me.
[00:23:03]  I've got bad news.
[00:23:04]  And I thought, oh, geez, I made it.
[00:23:06]  So I go in there and we sit down, similar to your story, I guess.
[00:23:09]  And he looks at me.
[00:23:11]  He says, Dr. Pearsall, here's the news.
[00:23:13]  Your cholesterol is too tiny.
[00:23:17]  And I said, you know what?
[00:23:18]  This calls for a celebration.
[00:23:19]  I'm going out to get a Big Mac.
[00:23:23]  And pertinent to that story, I remember, and I've been dead three times.
[00:23:28]  I don't know how many of your guests come on here and tell you stories I learned from my death, but I've got to be brought back.
[00:23:33]  Have some remarkable stories.
[00:23:36]  I know you have, and here I am dying and I can tell you this as fact and now, as scientists, I could feel the hearts of those around me bringing me back.
[00:23:47]  Hearts connect to other hearts.
[00:23:49]  I hate to just bring the scientist out me again on this, but there was a study done at the Sensum Medical Research Institute.
[00:23:57]  They had a.
[00:23:57]  They did a treadmill study, an interesting study.
[00:24:00]  They took a group of biopsied heart cells.
[00:24:03]  They took it from somebody, and then that person from whom they took the biopsy to check their heart cells was sent across town to a lab to do a stress test.
[00:24:14]  His cells were left on the other side of town.
[00:24:17]  While running on the treadmill, his cells began to beat faster across town.
[00:24:23]  Now that stuff sounds so bizarre that most scientists, therefore, will say, I'm not going to deal with this.
[00:24:31]  How was this observed, might I ask?
[00:24:33]  They had the lab technicians take these cells out to...
[00:24:36]  Oh, no, no, no, I understand the why of it, but I mean, why were they particularly observing at the coincident time that the stress test was going on?
[00:24:44]  Because you got the right word there, coincidentally, because they're looking at this and they're wondering, why are these cells pulsating like this so fast?
[00:24:51]  So all they have to do is look up the treadmill test time and say, my gosh, there it is.
[00:24:56]  It's at the same time.
[00:24:57]  It shouldn't surprise us, though.
[00:24:59]  I'm sure you've had other people on, like Dr. Dawson, who talks a lot about non-locality.
[00:25:03]  Yes, oh, yes, of course.
[00:25:04]  And that is not any weird hypothesis.
[00:25:07]  And it may be because of non-locality.
[00:25:09]  It may be about electricity.
[00:25:11]  I'm no world expert on all the explanations.
[00:25:14]  I'm here only to ask, please don't bite my finger.
[00:25:17]  Look where I'm pointing.
[00:25:18]  We as scientists, not just me, but Gary Schwartz, Linda Russik, dozens of other scientists have been trying to point out, listen to your heart.
[00:25:28]  It thinks differently.
[00:25:30]  There is no doubt.
[00:25:31]  Your brain is an arrogant, pushy, sort of a health maintenance organization that's governed by trying to get things.
[00:25:38]  And I don't mean to get vulgar on your show, but by the four F's.
[00:25:41]  It's food, fight, flea, and sex.
[00:25:43]  Yep, yep, yep, yep.
[00:25:45]  Not the heart.
[00:25:46]  The heart is like a little child gently tugging at your sleeve.
[00:25:49]  Well, you see, I've always been told that, you know, the F's that you mentioned are in the center part of our brain, our reptile center part of the brain, and that the outer part of the brain, the front part of the brain, the frontal lobe, is engaged in the higher aspects of.
[00:26:11]  But you're telling me some of this is really the heart.
[00:26:14]  Not only that, certainly heart and brain are connected.
[00:26:16]  The heart's energy, the heart speaks to the brain.
[00:26:19]  The old theory in medicine was the brain is in charge of everything.
[00:26:23]  The brain runs everything.
[00:26:25]  But I believe you have a guest coming on later on this week.
[00:26:29]  I checked your website that's going to talk a little bit about what he calls the God spot.
[00:26:33]  Oh, yes.
[00:26:34]  I believe so.
[00:26:35]  I may have that wrong, but it's talking about what happens when you really, when you meditate deeply, for example, and other plates, parts of the brain take over.
[00:26:42]  Well, we now know that you can do cardio meditation.
[00:26:45]  That is, if you calm your heart down and shut up your loudmouth brain, that heart will send messages to you.
[00:26:54]  Every scientist listening to my voice knows that your feelings are faster than your thoughts.
[00:26:59]  Sure.
[00:27:00]  You can't keep up with them.
[00:27:02]  We now know, and I'm sure you do this even though you have a scientific mind art, you make decisions on your show as to who will be on, the validity of your guests, how you're going to plan your program, not only mentally, but what's in your heart.
[00:27:14]  Oh, you better believe it.
[00:27:15]  You may describe it as intuition.
[00:27:18]  Well, we always say that, though, as a phrase.
[00:27:20]  I don't think we've contemplated it as a reality as we are tonight with you.
[00:27:26]  You're right.
[00:27:26]  We haven't because it's fallen into a phrase I don't like, parapsychology, like it's beside psychology or paranormal.

=== Confessions of the Heart (10:05) ===

[00:27:33]  This is a normal event.
[00:27:35]  The heart has always been there doing this for us.
[00:27:38]  Nobody gives anybody a Valentine's Straight brain.
[00:27:41]  We have always, your listeners can do it right now, unless they're driving.
[00:27:45]  Here's what they could do.
[00:27:46]  Please point to yourself.
[00:27:49]  Most people point right to their heart.
[00:27:52]  That's right.
[00:27:53]  Right dead on to the heart.
[00:27:54]  That's what I just did.
[00:27:56]  And I hope tonight that people will open their hearts to this because their brain's going to say, I don't want to hear this.
[00:28:03]  I'm in charge.
[00:28:05]  Okay, let's tell some stories.
[00:28:08]  I know that you published in the Journal of Integrative Medicine and the Journal of Near-Death Studies, and you've told some stories in there.
[00:28:17]  So, you know, most of my listeners will not have heard these stories.
[00:28:21]  Let loose.
[00:28:22]  Tell me a couple.
[00:28:22]  Well, it's my job, as I said, when we collect these stories, and I have some rules as we have done them.
[00:28:28]  I'm interested in collecting the stories from the people who do not want to tell them.
[00:28:32]  Of course.
[00:28:33]  That helps me right there.
[00:28:35]  Our criterion for collecting this is I wanted to talk to the donor families, to the recipient families, to the recipient, to the surgeon, if possible, or at least the medical staff, and collect this data and not try to lead them.
[00:28:49]  And I'm not perfect on this, and just let them talk.
[00:28:52]  What about, are there ever privacy issues that get in the way of your doing that?
[00:28:57]  I know sometimes the donor and the recipient are not known to each other, and that's the way it's supposed to be.
[00:29:04]  Right, we have to be very careful with that, and we never violate that.
[00:29:08]  And each some states have different rules about this, and there are ethics involved in this.
[00:29:13]  But these patients, the sad thing for us has been, since I published this material, patients call every day saying, Dr. Pearsall, I want to talk about this, but I've been made front of by other transplant patients who say this guy's nuts.
[00:29:27]  I don't want to hear about it.
[00:29:28]  By other doctors, or they get sent to the psychiatrist because they're crazy.
[00:29:32]  And before we tell these stories, I just want to make sure we're clear on this.
[00:29:36]  We are scientists looking at this.
[00:29:38]  I want to know why this happens.
[00:29:40]  Is it due to some degree to all these terribly strong immunosuppressive drugs that these people are on for life?
[00:29:47]  Is it due because of the transplant process, to the trauma?
[00:29:51]  There are many other explanations, but to be a good scientist, you must not think either or, but perhaps and.
[00:29:59]  So if you have a heart transplant, you're going to be on immune suppressive drugs your entire life.
[00:30:05]  For the rest of your life.
[00:30:06]  And some of those are very, very strong.
[00:30:09]  I bet they are.
[00:30:10]  What is the average expectation of a transplant patient these days?
[00:30:16]  For heart transplant?
[00:30:17]  Yes.
[00:30:18]  It's really increased now.
[00:30:19]  I don't have the recent data at my hands, but it's gone up to certainly over a decade and longer.
[00:30:24]  Really?
[00:30:25]  And some much longer.
[00:30:27]  And that's why I'm very careful.
[00:30:29]  And we can tell these stories all night because we have collected now over 200.
[00:30:33]  My, my.
[00:30:34]  And I'm very cautious.
[00:30:36]  And remember the cartridge.
[00:30:37]  I want to interview everybody here that I can.
[00:30:40]  And I want to just take their tape down as they say it.
[00:30:44]  So if I can just tell you one of the stories that came in today before we get to the other ones.
[00:30:48]  Sure.
[00:30:49]  I'll tell you a quick one that doesn't count first.
[00:30:52]  This one doesn't count because I gave a lecture on this and an internist in the audience was smirking the whole time I was talking like this is ridiculous.
[00:31:02]  And this happens to me after many lectures.
[00:31:04]  This guy came up afterwards and said, I need to talk to you in private.
[00:31:07]  I'm going to tell you a story, but you can't tell them I told you.
[00:31:11]  Happens to, like I'm a confessional here.
[00:31:13]  And he says, this is a story that I hope that you will publish someplace.
[00:31:18]  Well, I can't because I don't have the data.
[00:31:20]  Here's what he told.
[00:31:22]  A little girl had had a heart transplant.
[00:31:25]  Now, the decision for what the transplantation nowadays has a lot to do with size more than anything else, size of the body, to match it up.
[00:31:35]  This little girl, he wanted to introduce to me.
[00:31:38]  So she finally comes up, pulls open her blouse, and you've seen that.
[00:31:43]  Have you ever seen the heart transplant or the heart, even for open heart surgery, the scars there, especially in the old days?
[00:31:48]  Oh, yes.
[00:31:49]  Quite large.
[00:31:51]  But quite large.
[00:31:52]  This poor little child says, Dr. Pearsall, can you see my scar?
[00:31:56]  I have a little angel in my chest.
[00:31:59]  I have someone's other heart here.
[00:32:01]  And her mom says, you can tell the doctor everything.
[00:32:04]  And she said, well, I know that my donor's name is Krista.
[00:32:08]  Now, she doesn't know her donor.
[00:32:10]  We're able to check later to find out that the kid's name that she got the heart from was Christine, only called Krista by her parents.
[00:32:18]  How'd she know that?
[00:32:19]  Well, that isn't even the story yet.
[00:32:21]  Because then the mother says, go ahead.
[00:32:24]  I guess this was kind of an insult.
[00:32:26]  May I ask your hands off you and I, Matt?
[00:32:28]  Are you sure that there would have been no way that she was notified by parents or a physician of the name of her donor?
[00:32:36]  Not with this case, because it's not mine.
[00:32:38]  The other ones tonight are the ones that I wanted to control that for.
[00:32:42]  That's possible.
[00:32:43]  But that's not even the story.
[00:32:44]  Here comes a story that I am part of the story I am sure of.
[00:32:48]  Here's the thing that stunned me.
[00:32:50]  And again, for your audience, this is hearsay.
[00:32:53]  This is somebody telling me, then the kid telling me, so I have no way of controlling this.
[00:32:57]  But she said, the mother says, got to tell her because you're not sleeping at night, honey.
[00:33:01]  And she said, Dr. Pearsall, maybe it's the medicine, but I keep dreaming of Krista being hit in the head with a hammer by a man behind a church.
[00:33:11]  I keep dreaming that.
[00:33:12]  Oh?
[00:33:13]  Well, guess what happened?
[00:33:14]  That's how her donor had been killed.
[00:33:17]  Oh, my gosh.
[00:33:18]  That we know.
[00:33:19]  Now, any good scientist out there saying there's many ways this could have been had, this kid might have picked this up.
[00:33:24]  They may have seen it on TV.
[00:33:25]  I don't know.
[00:33:26]  So that case doesn't count.
[00:33:27]  That's just the warm-up case for tonight.
[00:33:29]  Well, no, it certainly counts for me.
[00:33:33]  Oh, my God.
[00:33:34]  So she remembered her death and suffering nightmares from her death.
[00:33:40]  And she could see it just as clear as she could, you know what she did with kids.
[00:33:44]  I said, draw it for me, honey.
[00:33:45]  She drew this.
[00:33:46]  She drew it.
[00:33:47]  And it was just amazing art to see that.
[00:33:51]  The day that your production team called me to ask me to come on the show, a man had called an hour before.
[00:33:58]  This is a doctor who got a new heart.
[00:34:00]  This is when your production staff said they got chicken skin when they were goosebumps.
[00:34:05]  And you've got a heart staff to do that too because they're very careful in their interviews.
[00:34:09]  And this guy calls up and he says, you're the guy doing that work.
[00:34:13]  I always wonder what they mean by that.
[00:34:15]  It sounds like an assault or something.
[00:34:17]  And I said, what can I do for you?
[00:34:18]  He said, I have a new heart.
[00:34:20]  I've had it for weeks.
[00:34:22]  I can't sleep.
[00:34:23]  I can't nap.
[00:34:25]  I close my eyes.
[00:34:26]  I see the image or I dream the image or I nap the image of some young woman falling down three flights of stairs and it's me and I break my neck.
[00:34:38]  Three flights of stairs.
[00:34:40]  I read your stupid book and nobody will check.
[00:34:45]  So I call the nurse's station and I say, we have a confidentiality issue here.
[00:34:49]  She said, yes, all the nurses are upset.
[00:34:51]  The doctor's upset because we've heard that dream.
[00:34:53]  We're not allowed to tell him.
[00:34:55]  But his donor was a college co-head left at a Kegger, a beer party in a fret house, and she was left upstairs about three flights of stairs.
[00:35:05]  Everybody else left to go out and eat, forgot her.
[00:35:07]  She woke up and stumbled down the three flights of stairs and broke her neck.
[00:35:11]  Oh, my God.
[00:35:14]  Again, these two stories, and we'll talk more about them tonight, these are reported to me.
[00:35:17]  So anybody calling could say, you can't prove that.
[00:35:19]  I can't.
[00:35:20]  These are stories just told to me.
[00:35:21]  The other ones, I got.
[00:35:23]  You have personally.
[00:35:25]  The ones I thought, but I thought those were just funny stories.
[00:35:30]  Oh, they are.
[00:35:30]  They are, and, you know, is there, I mean, what do you, are you then allowed to go back and say, guess what?
[00:35:40]  I did a little checking, or you were.
[00:35:43]  It was hard for me because, remember, you mentioned earlier correctly, you know, the privacy issue.
[00:35:48]  And I said, can I talk to him in generalities about this?
[00:35:52]  Yes.
[00:35:53]  And I don't know the answer, and I'll know the answer hopefully tomorrow.
[00:35:56]  So you're still working on this one.
[00:35:58]  Oh, yeah, I can't abandon him.
[00:36:00]  I mean, he just can't sleep.
[00:36:02]  And this poor guy, and I'm sure you've had other people on your show talking about these kind of things, people who report things that are out of the box.
[00:36:11]  Not this far.
[00:36:12]  I mean, I interviewed a lady who had a heart and lung trance plant and then had these cravings of the young boy.
[00:36:20]  I think you probably know the story I was on.
[00:36:22]  Oh, Claire Sylvia, I think.
[00:36:22]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:36:23]  Exactly.
[00:36:25]  But what you're describing now is, of course, I suppose the last and most dramatic moment of these prisons, the donors' lives, the end of their lives.
[00:36:35]  And I can imagine how it would haunt the recipient.
[00:36:39]  I mean, that makes absolute sense.
[00:36:40]  That's a lot more dramatic than what I've heard before.
[00:36:42]  That's astounding, in fact.
[00:36:45]  I wonder what can be done to help these people.
[00:36:50]  Finally, doing what you're doing, what I'm doing.
[00:36:53]  Open this up for discussion.
[00:36:54]  And let me just say this.
[00:36:55]  Let's suppose we're totally wrong tonight.
[00:36:58]  All this is bogus.
[00:36:59]  And it's not true at all with all the research, and it shows up that I'm totally wrong.
[00:37:04]  We still have to help these people.
[00:37:06]  These stories are still coming.
[00:37:07]  They're still happening.
[00:37:08]  All right.
[00:37:09]  Hold tight, Doctor.
[00:37:10]  We'll be right back.
[00:37:13]  Dr. Paul Pearsall is my guest, and we're talking about people who have received organs.
[00:37:20]  Specifically, we're talking mostly about the heart, and more than just organs have come along.

=== Auntie Gwen's Giving Tree (07:44) ===

[00:37:27]  Now, you've just got to ask what that means about us.
[00:37:31]  And obviously, the answer is a whole lot more than we ever thought.
[00:37:36]  remarkable stuff
[00:38:10]  And even to be what you want to be.
[00:38:13]  To reach Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255, East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
[00:38:23]  First time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
[00:38:29]  Or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
[00:38:35]  To reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
[00:38:44]  This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
[00:38:49]  My guest is Dr. Paul Pearsall, and I suggest you stay right where you are.
[00:38:52]  Gary in Westland, Michigan says, are, you know, those of us who are old enough to know, know the hard things.
[00:38:59]  This is why we've had so many hit songs that contain the word heart.
[00:39:02]  Go back and listen to the oldies.
[00:39:04]  Well, I don't have to.
[00:39:05]  Listen to them all the time, and you are exactly correct.
[00:39:10]  Well, okay.
[00:39:29]  Once again, Dr. Paul Pearsall.
[00:39:30]  Doctor, just a quick question.
[00:39:35]  Why do we have these, what is the rationale behind the laws that protect the donor and the recipient or the recipient from information about the donor?
[00:39:49]  Why do they do that?
[00:39:50]  What's the rationale?
[00:39:52]  Well, I think probably everybody, each state probably has their own reasons that these laws evolve and they vary.
[00:39:57]  But I think the idea is that donation may lead to the family that it's going to get this heart coming back and asking for something more or more acquaintance and intimacy to the donor family than that donor family may want.
[00:40:10]  I've got you.
[00:40:12]  And although I have been at several ceremonies now that have been set up, and we'll read some stories about it tonight or talk about them, set up especially for the donors to meet the recipient families and vice versa.
[00:40:25]  And the recipient, I've been there, and don't forget, as I said, I had a bone marrow transplant myself.
[00:40:30]  Yes.
[00:40:31]  So I've been there as a speaker and observed these phenomenon.
[00:40:35]  And I have never been moved so than to see these people.
[00:40:39]  They have what's called a giving tree.
[00:40:41]  And very often the recipient will come up and hang up a picture of their donor on the tree and everybody just cries and moves.
[00:40:48]  So I understand why some families would say no.
[00:40:51]  Well, have you seen enough of this that, as a general rule, do you feel the law should be perhaps changed?
[00:40:59]  I certainly think that the option should be wide open and nobody should be prevented from it.
[00:41:03]  I don't think anybody should be forced to this.
[00:41:05]  But there seems to be a strong therapeutic value on both ends for this.
[00:41:12]  Let me just give you one strong example.
[00:41:15]  There were two physicians who had two just charming little sons, and they doubted on these two little boys.
[00:41:22]  They wouldn't even go out for dinner.
[00:41:25]  And then they finally decided, we are going to have to go out, so we're going to interview babysitters.
[00:41:30]  They interviewed every babysitter.
[00:41:32]  They finally got one who was a registered nurse or new CPR to watch their kid.
[00:41:38]  They go out to the restaurant and they get the call that every parent dreads.
[00:41:42]  Rush home.
[00:41:44]  They rush home and one of their sons had drowned it in the bathtub.
[00:41:49]  How this happened was the nurse went to the phone just for a few moments.
[00:41:52]  You know, this drowning reflex in children, and he had drowned it.
[00:41:56]  They donated the heart to another boy.
[00:41:59]  Didn't want to have anything to do with this.
[00:42:01]  They were so hurt, understandably, and at least this heart was given to someone else.
[00:42:06]  Later on, a few years later, the mother said, I really wish I could see the recipient.
[00:42:12]  I believe there was a picture of this reunion in one of the articles that I published, actually.
[00:42:16]  But this woman is a physician now.
[00:42:19]  So she goes to meet the recipient family and sees the little boy who has her son's heart beating in his chest.
[00:42:28]  This little boy looks up at her, and I will never forget this phrase.
[00:42:35]  Says, Mommy, I missed you.
[00:42:38]  Oh, my God.
[00:42:40]  Well, lots of other explanations for this, but everybody around is just...
[00:42:45]  And so this woman...
[00:42:46]  Excuse me, how old was this boy?
[00:42:48]  This boy at this point was about, I'd say, seven or eight.
[00:42:52]  Seven or eight.
[00:42:52]  And looked up at the bottom.
[00:42:53]  But the transplant has been made four or five years ago.
[00:42:57]  And again, I hate to sound like a melodramatic here, but that isn't even the whole story.
[00:43:01]  Because then this woman, a physician, walks over and says, can I listen to your son's chest, the recipient mom's chest, son's chest.
[00:43:10]  She puts her head against this boy's chest and listens to her son's heart beating.
[00:43:17]  At that moment, the recipient boy whispers to this mother of the donor, how is Auntie Gwen?
[00:43:29]  Auntie Gwen, says this physician to me later, is her sister who was dying of cancer when her little boy was still alive.
[00:43:39]  How did this boy know that?
[00:43:42]  I asked the recipient mother, you have anybody in your family named Auntie Gwen?
[00:43:47]  Nope.
[00:43:48]  And then what made this story even more dramatic for me, and I witnessed this, is when this mother of the donor has her head against the chest of the boy, when they're done, they embrace.
[00:44:00]  And the little recipient boy reaches up and grabs the nose of the donor mother and tweaks it, twists it like you would a little child, twist it.
[00:44:09]  And this poor donor mother begins to cry.
[00:44:13]  And she said, I used to do that to my son all the time.
[00:44:16]  Oh.
[00:44:19]  Oh, my.
[00:44:19]  And it just, it is very difficult.
[00:44:23]  And every time the BBC or Germany television just followed me around for a few days and they said, we want to talk to your patients, I said, never again.
[00:44:31]  Never again.
[00:44:32]  Because these patients, when they are mocked sometimes, as I said before, you've done so many shows on controversial and cutting-edge things.
[00:44:42]  And so many people pay a horrendous price, Art, for doing this.
[00:44:47]  So I've had to guard their confidence so, so carefully.

=== Heart Consciousness Transference (07:17) ===

[00:44:51]  And you have to remember, I'm a clinical neuropsychologist.
[00:44:55]  I was trained to just worship this brain as the be-all-end-all.
[00:45:00]  But I have learned now that all these metaphors, everything we said about the heart, is literally true.
[00:45:06]  It thinks, it connects with other hearts.
[00:45:09]  You know, the brain's had its turn for a few decades.
[00:45:12]  Maybe it's time to look at the heart.
[00:45:14]  But that's a transference of some kind of consciousness we're talking about here, Doctor.
[00:45:21]  You know, I did a show a few days ago on the subject of reincarnation.
[00:45:29]  And reincarnation is interesting.
[00:45:31]  During the break, my wife said, gee, what you're talking about sounds just like reincarnation.
[00:45:35]  Well, not quite.
[00:45:36]  With reincarnation, unless you search for these memories of some other life, they're not conscious memories.
[00:45:45]  And if they're affecting you, it is subconsciously more than likely.
[00:45:48]  So this is not like reincarnation in the sense that, my God, it appears some part of consciousness is being transferred along with the organ.
[00:46:02]  And that should be, we should now start to wonder about the nature of consciousness itself.
[00:46:08]  Not just memory, but that approach is consciousness.
[00:46:12]  I mean, that's a contemporary how-is aunt so-and-so.
[00:46:19]  I think you're absolutely right.
[00:46:22]  I'm glad you said it, not me, but I think that's where the research is heading, Art.
[00:46:27]  We've always put consciousness in the brain, sort of.
[00:46:31]  Of course.
[00:46:32]  Although most of the guests you've had on who speak about this know it's much more than that.
[00:46:36]  That we cannot separate.
[00:46:38]  The heart has such a unique, unique energy.
[00:46:43]  And who among us hasn't felt it?
[00:46:46]  What mother listening to my voice now hasn't sensed in her heart something wrong with her child and felt it?
[00:46:52]  Think of all the shows you've done over the years, Art, that have had to do with telepathy, With remote viewing, with clairvoyance.
[00:47:01]  And very often we're always looking for, boy, the effect's always subtle.
[00:47:04]  It was very subtle.
[00:47:06]  Maybe, just maybe, this research is offering some answers, not all.
[00:47:11]  Well, I think it's all coming back to this non-locality.
[00:47:15]  I think so.
[00:47:16]  That's what it feels like to me.
[00:47:18]  And I do all these interviews, and that's where I'm certainly headed, and I have a feeling it is where you're headed, too.
[00:47:24]  I think you're right, because I think it demeans the importance of what we're talking about.
[00:47:27]  It's simply just putting an organ in somebody and some kind of special weird energy is transferred.
[00:47:32]  I think it's much more than that.
[00:47:34]  And that's what you're dancing around when you're talking about that.
[00:47:37]  As a scientist, I want to make sure I have my ducks lined up and make sure that these stories are verified and reported carefully.
[00:47:44]  And I know when the most recent publication was in the Journal of Near-Death Studies, and we did open-ended tape interviews, quoted verbatim, with transplant recipients, family members, donor family, and friends, and nurses and doctors where possible.
[00:47:58]  And even in that article, the stories were just dramatic.
[00:48:04]  One night I did something, you know, I'm all the time doing things that other people won't do.
[00:48:08]  And I just opened the lines one night in an open line night, and I'm going to do it again soon, too, real soon.
[00:48:14]  And I said, I only want to talk to people who have experienced clinical death.
[00:48:19]  And oh, my God, the stories I got were absolutely incredible.
[00:48:24]  Now, you said you experienced clinical death yourself.
[00:48:28]  Absolutely, three times.
[00:48:29]  And yes, and do you have any memories of the time that you were clinically dead?
[00:48:38]  Absolutely.
[00:48:39]  And I'm going to answer your question, but I've always been reluctant to do so because I'm concerned about credibility, and I never talk about them in lectures because it looks like I'm trying to hold myself up as the example.
[00:48:49]  Well, your credibility is established easily by reading your bio, which I did at the beginning of the show.
[00:48:55]  And because it's very, I'm a scientist, and I know that some of the things I'm saying, I used to explain since I've studied the brain as a psychologist, and I think, well, this is due to Mr. Biddle firing at a lack of oxygen and death and all of these things.
[00:49:08]  Let me answer your question.
[00:49:09]  Sure.
[00:49:10]  All three times that I had died, I saw my grandmother.
[00:49:16]  In Hawaii, they call the word tutu.
[00:49:18]  There she is in her wheelchair, saying clear to me as could possibly be each time, pointing to her heart, which is why she died, her heart, saying, go back, you must tell them.
[00:49:34]  Go back, you must tell them.
[00:49:37]  Every time I went through this, I saw her.
[00:49:40]  The surgeons, when I was in for surgery for this cancer, said, even under anesthesia, which is bizarre, coming out of this, you would say, Grandma, tell them what?
[00:49:53]  Grandma, tell them what.
[00:49:55]  So I've had that experience over and over again.
[00:49:58]  Do you remember the context in which you saw her?
[00:50:02]  I mean, can you compare the reality that's around you right now as you're on the phone with me with the experience you had with your grandmother?
[00:50:14]  In other words, was she solid?
[00:50:16]  Were you in a place you did not recognize?
[00:50:19]  Were you in a setting you did recognize?
[00:50:23]  How did this manifest?
[00:50:24]  All three times, and again, this is my solo experience, it was not like where I sit now.
[00:50:30]  You and I talked about non-locality.
[00:50:32]  It was in a, to say the word missed is wrong.
[00:50:35]  It wasn't what I see here.
[00:50:38]  It was her, but it wasn't a visual image.
[00:50:41]  It wasn't something I saw with my eyes.
[00:50:42]  It's something I, you know what I'm going to say, saw with my heart.
[00:50:46]  Okay.
[00:50:47]  It was an image, a perception of the heart.
[00:50:52]  It wasn't something that you would see in a picture.
[00:50:57]  And it was something that I felt more than saw.
[00:51:02]  And you mentioned reincarnation.
[00:51:04]  I don't know if you probably are familiar knowing you with Ian Stevenson's work.
[00:51:08]  Of course.
[00:51:09]  Brilliant, careful researchers.
[00:51:11]  Again, hundreds upon hundreds of cases, interesting to me and you, clearly, because these were children.
[00:51:18]  These weren't people saying I was Napoleon in the former life.
[00:51:21]  That's right.
[00:51:22]  I know.
[00:51:22]  These were carefully done.
[00:51:24]  What I'm suggesting in my research, and others who are doing, looking at the heart, we've always looked for answers and whatever this consciousness is and this connection of consciousness in the brain.
[00:51:36]  I'm suggesting that it's certainly much broader than that.
[00:51:39]  It certainly extends beyond the body.
[00:51:41]  And remember, when the heart beats, it's energy.
[00:51:44]  It is energy.
[00:51:45]  And energy contains information.
[00:51:47]  Don't you suppose, Doctor, that the critics of this, and there still are critics of heart transplant, they just say, it's flat wrong.

=== Talking Transference Worries (07:34) ===

[00:51:57]  In playing God, it's wrong.
[00:52:00]  The critics of this actually might take ammunition from what you're saying tonight to bolster their case.
[00:52:09]  Right, I've been told that, and you're quite right.
[00:52:11]  It's funny, you wonder what those critics so bad against heart transplant would do if their heart was failing totally or someone they love was losing their heart.
[00:52:19]  There was a commercial about that that ran on radio for a long time that was really, really good.
[00:52:24]  I think the fellow's heart or something or another was failing, and the doctor said, well, we've got a heart, you know, but it's from a black person or something or another.
[00:52:35]  Do you ever hear that commercial?
[00:52:37]  I've heard about it, yes.
[00:52:38]  Yes, and of course, he ended up the alternative was rather immediate, and so all of a sudden his prejudice just melted right away.
[00:52:49]  That's funny.
[00:52:50]  That's another example.
[00:52:51]  I was rounding with patients and saw a heart transplant patient, and the man had heard that he had received the heart of a black man, a white guy.
[00:53:02]  And he said, they should have asked me first.
[00:53:05]  And I said.
[00:53:06]  You're kidding.
[00:53:07]  Yeah.
[00:53:08]  And I said, don't worry about it then.
[00:53:10]  I said, we have a money-back guarantee here.
[00:53:12]  I'm going to cut that out right now and get that right out of you.
[00:53:16]  Yeah, that's right.
[00:53:17]  It's remarkable how he didn't want to have that done.
[00:53:19]  I'm sure.
[00:53:20]  But anybody listening to my voice now that's had a family member with a transplant, such as me, or a child who's needed a transplant, or those waiting for organs tonight, you know, if I can bring a little bit of lightness to this, I went to Seattle to lecture on transplant and went to the transplant unit.
[00:53:36]  And they all wanted to hear me talk about this.
[00:53:39]  And it was a horrendously rainy, terrible night when we landed.
[00:53:42]  I was there an hour late, and I go into the unit, and I say, I'm so sorry.
[00:53:46]  It's a terrible, rainy, slippery night.
[00:53:49]  And they all said in unison, good, because they're all waiting for transplants.
[00:53:53]  And there's that kind of black humor.
[00:53:55]  And the photographer stands up on the stool to take our picture together.
[00:53:59]  And he almost falls.
[00:54:01]  And this lady next to me, must have been about 50, very weak.
[00:54:04]  Goes.
[00:54:05]  She says, if he falls, I get his heart.
[00:54:10]  So I don't need to make light of this.
[00:54:11]  But transplant is a sacred thing.
[00:54:14]  Yeah, I know, but in situations like that, there has to still be humor.
[00:54:18]  There's day-to-day life, and you're hoping for a heart.
[00:54:21]  Especially in those units, I lived on that transplant unit.
[00:54:23]  We call ourselves a tribe of the transplanted.
[00:54:25]  And we would sit together late at night when the doctors wouldn't hear us, because, God forbid, we would be referred to a psychiatrist.
[00:54:31]  And these heart transplant patients would say, we're going to tell you this story.
[00:54:35]  But don't you tell anybody else.
[00:54:36]  Because there are heart transplant recipients out there who will hear this and say, this guy is nuts.
[00:54:40]  I've had anger from some of them.
[00:54:42]  Really?
[00:54:42]  Because some people are more cardiosensitive.
[00:54:46]  They tune into this.
[00:54:47]  But I interviewed a man the other day that said, a heart is a pump.
[00:54:51]  I'm a used car salesman.
[00:54:52]  And a pump is a pump, and a generator is a generator.
[00:54:55]  That's all it is.
[00:54:55]  And then I had one of the...
[00:54:57]  That's a protective reaction.
[00:54:59]  You see, and the people who are getting hearts, who get angry about it, are really protecting themselves because they don't want to bleed this because of the implications of it, obviously.
[00:55:10]  And I understand it and defend it absolutely totally.
[00:55:14]  But the problem that we're, and I think you're dancing around this when you talk about consciousness, the one thing that's coming out in every kind of show you're doing, all these issues that are sort of out-of-the-box things that scientists are looking at, is this extension of consciousness beyond this limited view we have.
[00:55:31]  Laura, are you right?
[00:55:33]  And that's hard for us.
[00:55:34]  And those of us who speak of it, like many of the guests you have and the pioneers that speak about this, really suffer for this.
[00:55:42]  And they're seen as the fringe of this.
[00:55:44]  Yes.
[00:55:45]  But I think that if we don't have, start, at least in my view, speaking as Hawaiian and as a doctor, start looking to a generation of the heart.
[00:55:55]  We're going to start continuing to behave as the brain does, which is territorial by boundaries.
[00:56:01]  The brain is in a lethal alliance with its own body.
[00:56:05]  That's why the heart's getting killed by this brain.
[00:56:07]  It drives us beyond recognition.
[00:56:10]  Who among us has not gone to bed at night and that brain won't let us sleep?
[00:56:14]  The brain says, oh, don't you go to sleep.
[00:56:16]  You better worry about this.
[00:56:17]  You better be concerned about that.
[00:56:19]  If we can only let that heart energy come out.
[00:56:22]  More times than I can count.
[00:56:24]  And I have to sleep twice a day.
[00:56:28]  Doctor, hold on, we're at the bottom of the hour.
[00:56:30]  We'll be right back.
[00:56:31]  Dr. Paul Pearsall is my guest.
[00:56:34]  And we're discussing hard information, actually, about what's come along with heart transplants.
[00:56:42]  I'm Art Bell.
[00:56:44]  This is Coast to Coast AM.
[00:57:10]  Take a ride.
[00:57:11]  Call Art Bell from West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
[00:57:17]  East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
[00:57:21]  First-time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
[00:57:27]  The Wild Guard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
[00:57:33]  And to call out on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
[00:57:42]  This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nive.
[00:57:47]  My guest is Dr. Paul Pearsall.
[00:57:51]  And we're talking about transference of what?
[00:57:55]  Cellular memory, RNA, DNA, or perhaps, I don't know, if you listen to the stories, perhaps some kind of form Of consciousness.
[00:58:09]  We'll be right back.
[00:58:10]  If you're tuning in,
[00:58:30]  I think it's probably important that you know that Dr. Persol, the magnitude of the person you're listening to, graduated as a distinguished scholar from the University of Michigan, did his postgraduate training at the Harvard and Albert Einstein Schools of Medicine.
[00:58:45]  Designed and served as chief of the award-winning psychiatric clinic at Sinai Hospital, was director of behavioral medicine at Beaumont Hospital.
[00:58:54]  Professor of Clinical Psychiatry and Neurosciences at the Wayne State University School of Medicine.
[00:59:00]  Has authored over 300 professional journal articles and 14 best-selling books, which, by the way, you can pursue on my website.
[00:59:08]  We've got links up there tonight.
[00:59:11]  Dr. Pearsall, you know, before too much time slips away, any other stories you might have first-hand knowledge on your part, I would love to hear.

=== Danny's Unpublished Poems (15:48) ===

[00:59:23]  Okay, I think that's important, Art, because the other stories I've told you, again, are not directly collected by me.
[00:59:28]  This story is right off the tapes, published in the journal.
[00:59:33]  This is an 18-year-old donor.
[00:59:36]  He was killed in an automobile accident.
[00:59:39]  This is a quote from the donor's father, a biochemist, by the way.
[00:59:44]  My son wrote poetry.
[00:59:46]  We waited more than a year before we were able to even begin to clean his room and go through his clothes.
[00:59:52]  We found there a book of poems he had never shown us, and it startled us.
[00:59:58]  He wrote the poems when he was only 12 years old.
[01:00:01]  He'd hidden them.
[01:00:02]  We sobbed for hours after we read them.
[01:00:05]  He wrote of seeing his own sudden death.
[01:00:08]  He played guitar, and he was really a talented musician and very, very exceptional and talented kid.
[01:00:13]  Then there's a long pause with tears on the tape.
[01:00:16]  He was a son any parent would have been proud of, a really perfect, loving son.
[01:00:20]  Long pause again.
[01:00:22]  Those words, I mean, Danny's words, I can't get them out of my mind.
[01:00:25]  They were about how Danny felt he was going to be killed young.
[01:00:28]  And not only that, Doc, you've got to hear this.
[01:00:31]  He saw himself donating his heart to someone.
[01:00:34]  Can you imagine thinking that at age 12?
[01:00:37]  No.
[01:00:37]  At Danny's age.
[01:00:39]  No.
[01:00:39]  Tate continues.
[01:00:40]  We remember that he had done a class project in sixth grade about organ donation.
[01:00:45]  He told us then he wanted to donate his heart if anything happened to him.
[01:00:49]  But we thought he was just talking like a lot of little young teenagers do about issues of dying and death.
[01:00:53]  But he wasn't at all depressed.
[01:00:54]  He never was.
[01:00:56]  Actually, it was almost a matter of fact about it.
[01:00:58]  When my wife and I met his recipient, it was like, my God, it blew us away.
[01:01:04]  She had to just like him.
[01:01:06]  She had his mannerisms.
[01:01:07]  Now, I interviewed the recipient, the eight-year-old female.
[01:01:11]  She had had endocarditis and heart failure, and she got Danny's heart.
[01:01:14]  Listen, Art, and art listeners, to what she said on tape, verbatim.
[01:01:19]  When they showed me pictures of their son, my heart began to race faster than ever, like it was going to fly out of my chest.
[01:01:27]  It was like looking at someone I had known forever.
[01:01:30]  I had always thought I had the heart of a young man in me.
[01:01:32]  I told my parents I did, and I sort of fell in love with him.
[01:01:35]  They didn't even know it was a man's heart.
[01:01:37]  Neither did I.
[01:01:38]  It was like he had been my lover for years before he gave me his heart.
[01:01:42]  I started telling his mom and dad things about him they said they could have never imagined anyone knowing.
[01:01:47]  When they played some of his music for me, I could even finish the phrases in his songs before I heard them.
[01:01:52]  Can you imagine that?
[01:01:54]  My name is Danielle, and his was Danny.
[01:01:57]  Okay, Doc, it's a coincidence.
[01:01:59]  It's a coincidence.
[01:02:00]  All right?
[01:02:00]  I'm sick of it.
[01:02:01]  And then she starts to cry.
[01:02:03]  Tate continues.
[01:02:04]  I was always afraid to talk about being in love with my donor, even before he gave me his heart.
[01:02:09]  I thought they would send me to a shrink for sure.
[01:02:11]  I know you won't believe this.
[01:02:12]  Well, maybe you would.
[01:02:14]  But after I got my new heart, I picked up my brother's guitar one day and could actually play it a little.
[01:02:19]  I never touched it and never could play it before.
[01:02:22]  I could never do that.
[01:02:23]  Not just drum it.
[01:02:24]  I mean, I could actually play the guitar.
[01:02:26]  I shocked my brother, and he never knew how I could do it.
[01:02:29]  Is it Danny playing from inside me?
[01:02:31]  My heart is playing it, not my brain.
[01:02:33]  I know that.
[01:02:34]  Now I'm writing songs that come from the heart.
[01:02:36]  I call them songs from Danny and Danielle's heart.
[01:02:40]  And she breaks into tears.
[01:02:42]  Wow.
[01:02:43]  A direct interview.
[01:02:44]  That was right off the tape.
[01:02:46]  I don't know how many more you want me to give you.
[01:02:49]  I'll take as many as you can give me.
[01:02:50]  That's incredible.
[01:02:51]  I mean, yes, I'll take any you have.
[01:02:56]  I should finish the tape part because the recipient's father then.
[01:02:59]  Remember, I tried to interview somebody as many people as I could.
[01:03:02]  The recipient's father of Danielle was a college chemistry professor.
[01:03:06]  And here's what he said.
[01:03:07]  I'm reading right off the tape a manuscript.
[01:03:10]  Until she got sick, Danielle was what you might call a real hellraiser.
[01:03:14]  She had been a hyperactive all through school until she got really, really sick.
[01:03:18]  But after her transplant, she became much quieter and calmer than she ever was before.
[01:03:23]  She said she felt like she had fallen in love with her donor.
[01:03:26]  She had lots of energy, but she was more reflective and introspective somehow.
[01:03:30]  She wanted to get guitar lessons and begin writing songs.
[01:03:32]  That was really not at all like her.
[01:03:34]  She would have made fun of that.
[01:03:36]  When we saw the pictures of her donor, I saw my daughter grab her chest with both hands, smile, and break into tears.
[01:03:41]  It was like she was greeting someone she had known forever.
[01:03:44]  I know this is all weird and stupid stuff, probably just a real strange string of remarkable coincidences, but it is pretty interesting stuff, isn't it?
[01:03:54]  He asked.
[01:03:55]  Interesting.
[01:03:56]  I guess that's mild.
[01:03:57]  That's good enough, yes.
[01:03:59]  You know, then that brings up this question.
[01:04:01]  Somebody asked it on the community.
[01:04:02]  I've got a computer next to me and they pepper me with questions.
[01:04:07]  That's a lovely story, of course.
[01:04:09]  But not all donors are nice people.
[01:04:14]  Sometimes donors are really nasty people who get hit by cars or shot because they were involved in something awful or who knows why people.
[01:04:25]  And so have you run into any cases where the effects, the transference of whatever it is, the consciousness that's transferred is not welcome because the person who made the donation wasn't a good person.
[01:04:44]  Sometimes, and it's interesting before I answer your question completely, this controversy really came up because they were in some states contemplating that prisoners who had committed pretty bad crimes, if they would donate an organ, not the heart, of course, but an organ, could buy time off their sentence or avoid the death sentence.
[01:05:05]  Then the question became, would you want the kidney of a mass murderer, for example?
[01:05:12]  Well, when you talk to people who are dying, they'll say, give me a kidney.
[01:05:16]  Yes.
[01:05:17]  But then you ask me, well, have there been cases like this?
[01:05:22]  I've only had one, and we could speculate together as to why.
[01:05:25]  Maybe something at death happens.
[01:05:27]  Well, just before you explain that, let's ask you the question.
[01:05:30]  You're on deathbed, your heart's hailing, and the only heart available is that of a mass murderer who was just shanked in prison.
[01:05:40]  Knowing what you know, what would you do?
[01:05:43]  I'd take it in the New York Minute.
[01:05:45]  And the reason for that is that we must understand that this heart is joining a system, a full system of cells of 75 trillion other cells.
[01:05:56]  The memory of your other heart is still there.
[01:06:00]  So the question is not that you're going to transform yourself completely into a murderer or a mass murderer.
[01:06:07]  But I don't want to back off your question, Art, because there are people, for example, who tell me, I wouldn't even want to wear the watch that Charlie Manson wore.
[01:06:15]  That's right.
[01:06:16]  So this raises, the interesting thing to me as a scientist is that that raises those questions.
[01:06:21]  I am no guru.
[01:06:22]  I don't have the answers.
[01:06:24]  I only know who someone who was dying that I would have given anything.
[01:06:28]  And I know that if I had not had my transplant, I would have died.
[01:06:32]  And those are things that your listeners would have to look at, each in their own way.
[01:06:36]  I did have one case where the wife said, since my husband got that heart, he has been the most, he used to be the most passive, kind man, and now he just is the most aggressive, swearing, cussing, angry man I've ever seen.
[01:06:54]  And it turned out he had the heart of somebody who had been a prisoner.
[01:06:59]  Oh.
[01:07:00]  So, however, over time, over time again, things changed.
[01:07:06]  Things changed.
[01:07:08]  And that's why even raising this issue on your show, to be open enough to at least discuss it so that somebody can talk to their doctor and not be sent to the psychiatrist because they're delusional and say, let's at least learn from this.
[01:07:21]  That's all I'm asking.
[01:07:23]  You know, there was an old statement you might remember by William James that said, it is enough to prove that all crows aren't black if you can prove just one is white.
[01:07:32]  Yeah, that's right.
[01:07:33]  All right.
[01:07:33]  Here's another good, really good question.
[01:07:37]  Does a blood transfusion confuse the heart, cause it to adapt to the donor's needs and not the recipients?
[01:07:44]  Or does blood itself, which of course courses through the heart quite frequently, also, in other words, when you get a transfusion, what are the possibilities?
[01:07:58]  You had asked me earlier, and I should have answered your question, all organs seem to carry with them these cellular memories.
[01:08:04]  Even eye types of transplants, certainly kidneys.
[01:08:09]  We see a lot of that with kidneys, especially manifested as changing in food preferences to match the person who had donated the kidney.
[01:08:17]  But to answer the question about blood, blood is just, of course, just billions of cells coursing through there.
[01:08:23]  But the answer is how we began your show tonight.
[01:08:26]  That heart is an immensely powerful organ, as we've talked about earlier.
[01:08:32]  And it is pulsating with immense energy.
[01:08:35]  But I got a call from Sweden the other day saying to me, and maybe this addresses your caller's question, he said, Dr. Piercell, I read your book, but you're wrong.
[01:08:47]  You said the heart is not only a pump, it's not a pump at all.
[01:08:50]  I said, no, wait a minute, what are you talking about?
[01:08:52]  And he said, the pump is not strong enough to do what you're describing, two and a half times around the earth.
[01:08:58]  So what we think is that the blood has, these cells in the blood have memories of their own, and they're coming to the heart and swinging through it like you would.
[01:09:06]  The heart acts more like a swing, like a child on a swing, and is shoved through by the blood.
[01:09:12]  So your caller's question is that certainly blood donations then certainly also carry these memories.
[01:09:17]  The question is, to what degree?
[01:09:20]  Yes.
[01:09:21]  And most people, I assume, that if they had some new little thought or concern, would never in a million years necessarily think it came as a result of, say, a transfusion.
[01:09:31]  It would just be a new thought or a new remembrance that was perhaps somewhat vague or even specific.
[01:09:38]  It would be sort of just perhaps disregarded sense.
[01:09:42]  That's very...
[01:09:42]  And by the way, don't forget we are all donors anyway.
[01:09:46]  Remember I said that heart energy is going beyond the skin?
[01:09:48]  Yes.
[01:09:49]  Hearts connect.
[01:09:50]  You and your wife are contrived this after the show.
[01:09:52]  You can stand facing each other.
[01:09:53]  We've done this with our patients for two years.
[01:09:55]  Join right to left hand.
[01:09:58]  Your hand's a little sweaty, you know, and they put an EKG on.
[01:10:00]  They put a little moisture there.
[01:10:02]  Right to left hand.
[01:10:03]  You put the extra hand you have left over on your heart, and you stand there looking at each other.
[01:10:09]  You feel the energy.
[01:10:10]  And you'll feel the hearts fall into sync.
[01:10:14]  They will start to come into sync.
[01:10:16]  When I was dying of cancer, I remember feeling my wife's heartbeat in mine and kept it going.
[01:10:23]  I've done this with audiences where we will play Hawaiian hula, which is at about 72 bits per minute, and play a very beautiful Hawaiian piece of music and have the real cynical executives stand up with their spouses and hold right hand to left and close their eyes, feel the music.
[01:10:39]  You will feel that energy exchange.
[01:10:42]  You know, you've got powerful scientists such as Dr. John at Princeton University's Engineering Anomalies Laboratory talking about such things as love energy, L energy, this fifth type of energy.
[01:10:52]  Maybe it's energy.
[01:10:53]  Maybe it's electricity.
[01:10:54]  Maybe it's non-locality.
[01:10:56]  We have to start asking, but if your listeners will try this with someone they're close to, they will have a profound sense of what it's like to connect with someone else's heart.
[01:11:06]  So much we have to learn, so much we don't know.
[01:11:12]  And I just, you know, a lot of people are going to, some people will react angrily to this.
[01:11:20]  You know, I can see that in some of what I'm reading here.
[01:11:23]  Some react angrily.
[01:11:25]  They don't want to believe this.
[01:11:26]  And I guess I do understand why they don't want to believe it.
[01:11:30]  It just too shocking to everything they've believed all their lives.
[01:11:39]  Because the brain is telling them that.
[01:11:42]  I'm not being facetious when I say the brain is concerned with self.
[01:11:47]  It thinks, I'm going to protect me.
[01:11:49]  This can't be true.
[01:11:51]  This is impossible.
[01:11:53]  How could this happen?
[01:11:54]  I know you've had Dr. Larry Dossi on your show, and he wrote a brilliant article called The Right Man Syndrome.
[01:12:00]  He talked about the right men who constantly extend the research goalposts, who won't open their mind and hearts to such things as non-locality.
[01:12:07]  For heaven's sakes, Bell's theorem that says that two things once attached are attached forever across time and space, which is quantum physics fact, blows some people's minds.
[01:12:18]  That's a very hard concept to accept.
[01:12:21]  Yet we know that that's good quantum physics.
[01:12:24]  So even Einstein couldn't accept quantum physics.
[01:12:28]  So we have to start really thinking differently.
[01:12:30]  It's been the purpose of your show for years.
[01:12:33]  Then how, what about some cutting-edge research that's going on now?
[01:12:37]  The kind of stuff where they're going to either grow hearts that will work in humans or grow human organs like hearts in pigs.
[01:12:45]  Right.
[01:12:45]  One of my patients the other day said, if I get a pig valve, am I going to oink?
[01:12:49]  No, you're not.
[01:12:52]  You're not going to do that.
[01:12:53]  Because as I said, the effect typically is subtle.
[01:12:57]  As we began this show, I said, I regret that I shared most of these very dramatic stories because I suspect that these are being reported by the superstars, just like you know there are some psychic superstars who are able to do some profound things.
[01:13:10]  Oh, yes.
[01:13:11]  But all of us have that ability.
[01:13:13]  All of us have that ability.
[01:13:15]  There's no doubt in the data anymore that psych experiences are real.
[01:13:20]  Any scientist who denies that is not reading the journals.
[01:13:22]  But the effect is subtle.
[01:13:24]  Same with the heart.
[01:13:25]  So those people who may call into you and say, this is stupid, and this can't be, and this is new age gobbledygook, and this is witchcraft, that they're reacting the same way as when Einstein may suggest that mass and energy are the same thing.
[01:13:41]  Listen, the witches knew this a long time ago.
[01:13:46]  Well, hasn't every culture?
[01:13:48]  The Apaches would kill the buffalo and eat the heart to get its energy.
[01:13:51]  Yes.
[01:13:52]  Every indigenous medicine, what's the fourth chakra?
[01:13:56]  The heart.
[01:13:57]  What does Ayurvedic medicine, Chinese medicine, do?
[01:13:59]  It takes the pulses and diagnoses by pulse.
[01:14:02]  It's our modern mechanical medicine that is focused primarily on the brain running the body in a lethal alliance, and the heart is simply a pump sending blood.
[01:14:12]  So would you say that those who did that, who ate the heart for the energy, well, they could have been right?
[01:14:22]  It's hard to say because I wonder.
[01:14:25]  It's hard to say no.
[01:14:26]  Yeah, it's hard to say no on this, but I doubt that it's going to be a digestive problem.
[01:14:30]  But if we're really talking, as you and I were speculating before, all connections are there.
[01:14:36]  You know, Doctor, there have been mass serial killers who, believe it or not, essentially believed the same thing, some pretty awful cases, but I mean, they actually came up with the same explanation that they could assume that person's power by some cannibalistic act.

=== Soul Transplant Questions (15:02) ===

[01:15:03]  Remember again from all of this, every story I've told you so far, even though the effects are profound, listen to the emotion behind this.
[01:15:11]  It's almost always a loving emotion and a subtle effect.
[01:15:15]  Even that last story I read to you from the tape, this was not some, they describe it with such caring and sensitivity.
[01:15:22]  If there's any common theme in every journal article we published about these cases is there's a gentleness and caring motive for this behind both sides of this.
[01:15:33]  That's a very important lesson.
[01:15:35]  Maybe, just maybe, that's teaching us that this consciousness we're talking about is a pretty loving kind of consciousness if we tune into it.
[01:15:43]  Maybe it's the brain that has such a bad attitude.
[01:15:47]  Well, there's the donor to think about for a second.
[01:15:52]  I mean, if we're talking, we tend to, of course, talk about the recipient because the recipient is alive and we can get stories from the recipient.
[01:15:59]  But if you're considering being a donor, for example, don't you have to consider the possibility that some of your consciousness, since we don't know so much about all of this right now, that some of your consciousness may live, and one thought pattern might be that you don't want that to occur.
[01:16:21]  I mean, as you consider whether or not you want to be a donor, and I know I'm talking heresy here because you all need donors, but that would have to be something you would think about, that perhaps you would live on in some way that you probably ought not to in God's world.
[01:16:37]  I don't know.
[01:16:38]  Absolutely.
[01:16:38]  And you know what?
[01:16:39]  Even before we started this research, patients who were considering donation would raise those questions.
[01:16:44]  Really?
[01:16:45]  Absolutely.
[01:16:46]  So we're saying that's why we want to study this.
[01:16:49]  But our answer to this is, please understand what we're saying.
[01:16:53]  We're talking about transplant, but we're also saying that the heart is a miraculous organ.
[01:16:59]  We are already exchanging our consciousness with one another all the time, that heart consciousness.
[01:17:04]  You can't tell me, Art, that even over the phone, 1,000 miles away, when you're talking to a guest, that you don't have some kind of sense of the energy, if I can use that word.
[01:17:13]  Oh, no, I do.
[01:17:15]  I do.
[01:17:15]  I'll hold it right there.
[01:17:17]  We'll be right back.
[01:17:18]  Dr. Paul Pearsall is my guest.
[01:17:23]  Oh, this is remarkable.
[01:17:24]  I'm Art Bell.
[01:17:25]  Good morning.
[01:17:25]  I've been where the eagle flies Threwed his wings cross all the skies Kissed the sun, touched the moon But he left me much too soon His labor.
[01:17:51]  Once again, Dr. Paul Pearsall.
[01:17:53]  Doctor, I'm getting a lot of questions on the computer screen that sort of follow where we were going with the discussion of consciousness, which for many people will automatically flow into the word soul.
[01:18:07]  And so a lot of people are asking questions like, what if by using another person's organ, the soul of that other person essentially remains until the death of the recipient.
[01:18:23]  Has this ever been discussed?
[01:18:25]  It's touching ground, I know.
[01:18:27]  It really is.
[01:18:28]  And some of the flack we get are sometimes from very religious people who say you're tampering with the soul.
[01:18:33]  As researchers, though, we're saying, look, certainly I'm not going to be so arrogant to say I understand what the soul is, but most researchers understand from the data that life is certainly a sacred process.
[01:18:46]  And whatever the soul is, most of us had better start to broaden our idea of it because it is not just a limited, selfish thing.
[01:18:54]  All of us are connected.
[01:18:56]  I know that phrase has been thrown around so loosely, but it is profoundly so.
[01:19:01]  And I found a case when we were on break that might address that question you just raised.
[01:19:06]  Okay.
[01:19:06]  If I can just tell you, it was right off the tape again.
[01:19:08]  Again, documented cases.
[01:19:10]  Let her rip.
[01:19:10]  Have your listeners listen carefully for the nature of what happens in this transplantation.
[01:19:16]  Because this is a subtle thing.
[01:19:17]  You've got to listen carefully.
[01:19:18]  This is a 41-year-old male heart transplant patient.
[01:19:22]  He received the heart of a 19-year-old girl who was killed when her car was just struck by a train.
[01:19:29]  Terrible event.
[01:19:30]  Here's what he said.
[01:19:32]  I felt it when I woke up.
[01:19:33]  You know how it feels different after a thunderstorm or heavy rain.
[01:19:38]  You know that feeling in the air.
[01:19:40]  That's kind of how it felt.
[01:19:42]  It was like a storm had happened inside me or like I had been struck by something like lightning really hard.
[01:19:48]  The smell of ozone, the freshness.
[01:19:51]  Yeah.
[01:19:52]  And can you hear the energy he felt from that accident?
[01:19:55]  You hear the transplantation seems to be of the event.
[01:19:59]  There was a new energy in me, he said.
[01:20:01]  I felt like a 19-year-old again.
[01:20:03]  Got the age right, by the way, by coincidence.
[01:20:05]  I'm sure I got a strong young man's heart, got a woman's, because sometimes I can feel like a roar or a surging power coming right at me.
[01:20:13]  Remember the train?
[01:20:14]  Oh, yeah.
[01:20:14]  I think he was probably a truck driver or something.
[01:20:16]  He was probably hit by a big semi that just smashed him to smithereens.
[01:20:21]  Wow.
[01:20:21]  Do you hear the subtleness there?
[01:20:22]  He didn't get a lot wrong, but he got the energy of that train smash.
[01:20:27]  His wife says he's like a kid again.
[01:20:29]  He used to struggle to breathe and had no stem at all.
[01:20:31]  Of course, he was very sick.
[01:20:32]  The transplant changed that.
[01:20:34]  Well, you'd expect it.
[01:20:35]  He keeps talking about power and energy all the time, though.
[01:20:38]  He says he has had several dreams that he's driving a huge truck and hit head-on by it.
[01:20:43]  That's all he can talk about.
[01:20:45]  So do you hear how that's being transformed?
[01:20:48]  That's a subtle kind of process, but that energy of that accident seemed to have been still stored in that heart.
[01:20:54]  That's true.
[01:20:55]  And it came through.
[01:20:57]  I got a funny one for you if you want one, because most of these are so strong.
[01:21:01]  This one made all of the scientists laugh.
[01:21:03]  Go right ahead.
[01:21:04]  This is a 35-year-old female heart transplant recipient.
[01:21:07]  Her donor, unknown to her, was a 25-year-old prostitute who was killed in a stabbing.
[01:21:14]  Here's what she said.
[01:21:15]  I never really was all that interested in sex.
[01:21:17]  I never really thought much about it.
[01:21:19]  Don't get me wrong, my husband and I had a great sex life, but it wasn't a very big deal.
[01:21:23]  Now, I tire my husband out.
[01:21:26]  I want sex every night.
[01:21:27]  And I masturbate two or three times a day sometimes.
[01:21:30]  I used to hate X-rated videos, but now I love them.
[01:21:33]  I feel like the slut sometimes, and I do strip teasers for my husband when I'm in the mood.
[01:21:37]  I would never have done that before.
[01:21:39]  I'm almost ashamed to tell you.
[01:21:40]  When I told my psychiatrist about this, he said it was a reaction to my drugs, and I needed help.
[01:21:45]  Then I found out that my donor was a young college girl who used to work as a topless dancing sir.
[01:21:49]  She was also a prostitute.
[01:21:50]  Would imagine the husband, if he heard advice like that, pull her out of therapy so fast.
[01:21:55]  Well, I'm ahead of you, Art, because here's what the husband said.
[01:21:59]  Now that I'm, not that I'm complaining, mind you, but what I have now is a sex kitten.
[01:22:04]  Not that we do it more, but she wants to talk about it, do it, watch tapes.
[01:22:08]  We have sex, but it's different.
[01:22:09]  No worse.
[01:22:10]  It's just a lot different.
[01:22:12]  And he goes on and on.
[01:22:13]  I don't want to get us off the air here.
[01:22:15]  No, That's all right.
[01:22:16]  I get the idea.
[01:22:18]  But that's incredible.
[01:22:19]  It's just an incredible story.
[01:22:21]  So the reason for saying the funny one and the more serious one here is when they say about what's the soul, I don't know.
[01:22:27]  But I'm telling you, we are all connected.
[01:22:29]  And I know speaking now as a Hawaiian, and I haven't done that much tonight.
[01:22:32]  When I wrote Miracle in the Maui, I talked about Maui, Hawaiian concept.
[01:22:37]  Most Westerners think of the soul as inside them.
[01:22:40]  Hawaiians and indigenous people think of the soul as among us.
[01:22:44]  Among us.
[01:22:45]  A shared among us.
[01:22:46]  Again, the non-locality aspect.
[01:22:47]  Here we go again, Art.
[01:22:48]  I hate to keep coming back to that.
[01:22:49]  No, no, that's fine because that's what everything's coming back to.
[01:22:53]  I want to run something by you.
[01:22:55]  It's kind of away from what we're discussing right now in a way, but yes and no.
[01:23:00]  I have talked personally to a lot of people who have relatives who have not received a new heart, but they have gone through bypass surgery.
[01:23:10]  Yes.
[01:23:11]  And there are millions of stories out there, Doctor, about people's personalities becoming modified after that kind of surgery.
[01:23:24]  That they come out completely different people, according to relatives.
[01:23:30]  And I wonder if you've heard any of that.
[01:23:32]  And I don't know that it has one thing to do with what we're talking about right now, but it's a curious thing.
[01:23:37]  I've heard some.
[01:23:38]  I don't either, Art, but the answer is an unequivocal yes.
[01:23:41]  Really?
[01:23:41]  And it came up when we were doing the research, and then these doctors and nurses would sit us down and say, you know, you're talking about these transplants, but with bypass, we're seeing these changes.
[01:23:49]  Now, from a scientific point of view, of course, this is a frightening process.
[01:23:53]  These people were in pain and sick, and maybe they're feeling better, so you'd expect certain changes in them.
[01:23:58]  They're on medications.
[01:24:01]  They've had anesthesia.
[01:24:02]  I can give you 20 reasons for that.
[01:24:04]  Well, I know, but once the blood supply is essentially restored, then you would expect to see the person perhaps go back to what they were prior to when they got sick.
[01:24:13]  But the heart has been tampered with.
[01:24:16]  And they're seeing other manifest changes, big changes.
[01:24:20]  Well, if we're going to get really far out here, what is the name of the process of that surgery?
[01:24:25]  Bypassing the heart.
[01:24:28]  That's true.
[01:24:28]  Think of it.
[01:24:29]  What it is.
[01:24:30]  We bypassed it.
[01:24:32]  We lost it for a while.
[01:24:33]  One of the things I learned, this is how stupid a researcher can be, is our patients with donors, recipients, excuse me, would say to me, please, when they know I'm open to this kind of talk, not to the other doctors, I'm always the weird one they'll tell this to.
[01:24:48]  Please, doctor, let me say a very long goodbye to my heart and thank it for what it did.
[01:24:55]  We have to understand that heart will beat sometimes for minutes and longer outside the body.
[01:25:01]  I've held the heart in my hand.
[01:25:04]  I have felt that energy.
[01:25:05]  You ask any transplant surgeon.
[01:25:08]  I have sat the diseased heart next to the healthy heart that's going to go in the body.
[01:25:13]  And I have seen them, not touching now.
[01:25:16]  I've seen them fall into sync in the same beat as if they are communicating with one another.
[01:25:22]  Every cardiovascular surgeon will tell you they have witnessed the same thing if they're honest, if they're honest about it.
[01:25:28]  Some don't want to even deal with this.
[01:25:30]  As you said earlier, it's a lot easier to get angry and defensive and just say, oh, the body is just a mechanical thing and only the brain is sacred.
[01:25:38]  But what did you know that weeks before the brain fully forms, the heart beats before the brain begins to develop?
[01:25:45]  I've heard that, yes.
[01:25:46]  It's an absolute fact.
[01:25:47]  And it beats.
[01:25:48]  You want to talk about strange, from a kind of a vortex of energy, here we go, that word again, forms, the heart, that area begins to throb, forms into a heart, and then the brain forms.
[01:25:59]  From that point forward, the heart is still talking to the brain by the atrial naturatic factor, atrial peptide, by many, many types of neurochemicals and transmitters.
[01:26:10]  Back in the 80s, in 1987, they declared neurocardiology, that the heart has a brain of its own.
[01:26:17]  It can think outside the body and in.
[01:26:19]  Well, how could a surgeon not notice, as you pointed out, a diseased heart and a healthy heart side by side, just as the switch is being made, falling into sync?
[01:26:32]  Or is that something that just mentally lock it out?
[01:26:37]  Yeah, you know, it's mechanical, it's a coincidence, it might happen, but everybody knows.
[01:26:41]  If you put a heart cell, no other cell in the body, but the heart, in a Petri dish, in a medium, and then you take a cell from someone else's heart and put that cell in there, they will fall into sync.
[01:26:53]  You've heard of the Hundred Monkey phenomenon.
[01:26:55]  Oh, yes.
[01:26:56]  It sounds so redundant, but it looks like this kind of non-locality, this energy connection, hearts connecting with one another, is not just metaphor.
[01:27:04]  So when we say he wears his heart on his sleeve, my heart goes out to you.
[01:27:08]  You've hurt my heart.
[01:27:09]  You broke my heart.
[01:27:11]  It's the heart crying out for attention.
[01:27:14]  Very few hearts are murderers.
[01:27:16]  Brains are.
[01:27:17]  Brains are very selfish, territorial.
[01:27:20]  That's what they're designed to do.
[01:27:23]  And how many times have you heard people say, she or he has a good heart?
[01:27:28]  That speaks to that concept of the soul, the spirit.
[01:27:32]  This research is just beginning, but it may offer some ways to understand all of these things, soul, spirit.
[01:27:39]  What about the power of prayer?
[01:27:41]  These hearts go out to each other.
[01:27:42]  Is there something involved in that?
[01:27:44]  It's a good thing it's 2002 because not that many years ago, you'd have been crucified, guaranteed, burned at the stake, whatever.
[01:27:52]  Expressing all of these views.
[01:27:54]  Absolutely.
[01:27:54]  But don't forget, the witches that were burned at the stake were, of course, mostly women who had the audacity to question the medical model of those days.
[01:28:04]  That's right.
[01:28:04]  That's why they were burned.
[01:28:05]  This was purely an economical, political burning.
[01:28:09]  That's true.
[01:28:10]  The same stuff has happened to Ian Stevenson, John Mack.
[01:28:14]  I'll bet you could name me 20 researchers who have tried to get people.
[01:28:19]  I am not on your show to say, Paul Pearcell's got it right.
[01:28:22]  Don't study this anymore.
[01:28:24]  We're begging them, read this.
[01:28:27]  Look at the data.
[01:28:28]  I was so upset the other day at a meeting, somebody said, there's no research on this.
[01:28:32]  I said, did you look in the lease in the back of my book?
[01:28:34]  If you don't want to read journals, it's full of bibliography.
[01:28:38]  Look at that.
[01:28:38]  Go to the library.
[01:28:39]  I don't care if you buy the book.
[01:28:41]  Check me out.
[01:28:42]  You have every right to ask me, how do you know?
[01:28:45]  Who says so?
[01:28:46]  Not just because Paul Pearsall says so.
[01:28:48]  Talk to cardiovascular surgeons.
[01:28:50]  Talk to transplant surgeons.
[01:28:52]  See what they say about this.
[01:28:54]  Don't just yield to those who are, as you said, so angry because this threatens their system of belief.
[01:29:00]  Open their hearts.
[01:29:02]  Open your heart.
[01:29:03]  Open medical students.
[01:29:04]  You don't have to have a hole in your head to have an open mind.
[01:29:08]  Well, a heart transplant surgeon surely has a very close connection to the recipient.
[01:29:14]  And these questions really, really must come up after a transplant.
[01:29:19]  After somebody finally, you know, they're failing and boy, all of a sudden now they've got a new heart.
[01:29:24]  I mean, these questions come up, and I wonder how the average transplant surgeon handles it.
[01:29:31]  Well, most of those that I've talked to, I mentioned Nimitzaz and others, have been sensitive to it and doing it in the closet because they've been afraid to speak of this.
[01:29:40]  Patients have talked about it and talked about it for as long as this process has been going on.
[01:29:46]  But some of the pioneers in this wanted to be sure it was just seen as a pump for every question Art Bell is asking tonight.

=== The Transplant Olympics (05:52) ===

[01:29:52]  The politics of it, the fear of it.
[01:29:55]  Are you putting somebody's new soul in there?
[01:29:57]  Are you tampering with immortality?
[01:29:59]  It raises all of those questions, Art.
[01:30:01]  Well, then here's one for you.
[01:30:04]  We live in an interesting time.
[01:30:06]  Now, the first artificial hearts were gigantic things.
[01:30:09]  Right.
[01:30:10]  The person was attached to them.
[01:30:11]  Now, they're smaller things.
[01:30:13]  Soon, I guess we'll have a heart that is small enough to be completely contained within the chest and maybe even the power supply for it.
[01:30:23]  I agree, the whole thing in the chest, smaller and smaller like everything else.
[01:30:27]  And so eventually we will have this totally artificial heart, I think.
[01:30:33]  Most likely sometime.
[01:30:35]  And I wonder, considering all you've said tonight, what the implications of that might be.
[01:30:42]  It might surprise you, but maybe not all that significant for this reason.
[01:30:46]  Don't forget, that heart has had residence in that body for a long time.
[01:30:50]  Even though we're talking about the impact of a donor's heart, your heart's still your heart's neighborhood.
[01:30:56]  Your heart has pumped its energy, its form of energy, through that body for a long time already.
[01:31:02]  So that the idea of a mechanical heart, and then we really get into something way far out.
[01:31:07]  I'm sure you've done some shows on the work at the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Laboratory.
[01:31:12]  Oh, well, you bet I have.
[01:31:14]  Where they have done, boy, you want to talk about a program that's also had to struggle against, oh, what are you guys doing?
[01:31:19]  You know that in a very subtle way that people are able to alter solid objects, aren't they?
[01:31:26]  They're able to make changes on computer screens.
[01:31:28]  They're able to move pendulums by intent.
[01:31:32]  Yes, I know that.
[01:31:33]  Millions, and I'm not exaggerating, millions of replications of data doing that.
[01:31:38]  So, isn't it logical that even a solid kind of mechanical object might be imbued with the energy or non-local forces of the body that's already there?
[01:31:47]  Yes, of course it's possible.
[01:31:50]  And so, I guess that answers my question.
[01:31:53]  Yes, of course it's possible.
[01:31:55]  Wow.
[01:31:58]  All right, I've so dominated your time here.
[01:32:02]  I do want to get to take a few calls here after the bottom of the hour.
[01:32:05]  But any other stories you have like the ones you've been telling?
[01:32:09]  And as I said, I want to be sure that the ones we're telling now, because we told some others before, are the ones that I've given.
[01:32:16]  But I think one of the funniest ones that I did not collect was one of my students who had visited the Heart Transplant Olympics.
[01:32:24]  There were enough people who've had transplants.
[01:32:27]  I should call it the Transplant Olympics.
[01:32:28]  It wasn't just heart transplant.
[01:32:30]  In Australia.
[01:32:31]  So I can't totally stand behind this because it was reported to me by one of my research students who went there.
[01:32:37]  He met, now we'll really see if your listeners are listening.
[01:32:40]  He met a man who had raced against another man in the marathon there, the man to whom he had donated his heart.
[01:32:51]  Now, I'm hoping people are awake enough to say, wait a minute, what'd you just say?
[01:32:55]  Yeah, watch the man who had donated his heart had a healthy heart, but he had cystic fibrosis, a lung problem.
[01:33:04]  He had a heart-lung transplant.
[01:33:06]  So they donated his healthy heart.
[01:33:08]  I see.
[01:33:09]  It's called a domino transplant.
[01:33:11]  So they were, they were, oh my gosh.
[01:33:14]  You follow my point?
[01:33:14]  I certainly do.
[01:33:15]  Now, here it comes.
[01:33:17]  This man who had donated his heart to this other man raced against the man to whom he had donated his heart in the marathon.
[01:33:25]  My student interviews them afterwards.
[01:33:27]  Dream interview.
[01:33:27]  I wish I could have been there because it was not good research, not carefully done.
[01:33:30]  And the donor had lost in the marathon to his recipient.
[01:33:34]  And he told my student, you know why I lost?
[01:33:36]  My heart wasn't in it.
[01:33:39]  It just broke up and laughed.
[01:33:41]  But I don't know where we are in time, but that's not the full story.
[01:33:44]  That's not the full story?
[01:33:45]  Oh, the real story is then my student sits down with his wife across the table from the donor and his wife, and the recipient and his wife.
[01:33:53]  And they get an interview.
[01:33:54]  Now, here's a great interview.
[01:33:56]  I wish I could have been there.
[01:33:57]  This was published in the Australian news.
[01:33:59]  So they're sitting there, and as they're talking, the recipient is married to a very quiet Japanese lady.
[01:34:06]  Very quiet.
[01:34:06]  I tell you what, that's a great place to hang people up and make them wait through the break.
[01:34:11]  It's quite a story on radio.
[01:34:12]  So, quite a story coming up.
[01:34:13]  Stay right where you are from the high desert.
[01:34:16]  I'm RFL.
[01:34:18]  And this is Coast to Coast AM.
[01:34:22]  Dr. Paul Pearsall, stay right where you are.
[01:34:31]  Well, all right, doctor, we're back at it, so finish your story.
[01:34:35]  The story was interesting.
[01:34:36]  The two couples were sitting across from each other, and my research student is sitting there, and they're telling stories, and he's taking notes.
[01:34:43]  And suddenly, this very quiet Japanese wife named Kim, sitting next to the recipient, yells and interrupts the whole thing and says to the woman sitting next to the donor, Is your name Susan?
[01:34:58]  And she said, My God, how did you know?
[01:35:01]  And she said, Because my name is Kim, and my husband's yelling out your name when he's making love to me.
[01:35:06]  Oh, my God.
[01:35:07]  Now, I can't verify it, but that story has run around our clinic since that ever happened.
[01:35:14]  I don't want any of your listeners to use as an excuse tonight, however.
[01:35:17]  Right.
[01:35:18]  Listen, a million people are going to want to contact you.
[01:35:21]  Is there any way to contact you?
[01:35:23]  Do you have any email address you dare give out or any other contact injury?
[01:35:27]  It's hard or we're swamped and I want to protect the company, but you know, the best way to do it is just get a hold of some of the books, and I think some contacts might be done that way through the publisher.

=== Procurements and Perceptions (03:52) ===

[01:35:35]  Okay, and of course, we've got a link to all the books on the website right now.
[01:35:39]  I would like to bring a couple of few callers on here if I can.
[01:35:42]  Sure.
[01:35:42]  I've dominated your time.
[01:35:44]  East of the Rockies are on the air with Dr. Paul Pearsall.
[01:35:47]  Hi.
[01:35:48]  Hello?
[01:35:48]  Yes, sir.
[01:35:49]  You're on the air.
[01:35:50]  Where are you?
[01:35:51]  Yeah, well, I'm in Ohio right now.
[01:35:53]  I've worked in the operating rooms for about eight years.
[01:35:57]  And when I was up in Eastern Maine Medical Center up in Maine, you know, I've told this story a few times.
[01:36:03]  No one really believes it.
[01:36:05]  I've done about 20 procurements.
[01:36:07]  And, Doc, you'd understand some of this.
[01:36:10]  When I was in anesthesia tech, basically, what I did, you know, assist the doc, make the slush, put the heart and all that in.
[01:36:19]  So one night we were using a room that we don't normally use.
[01:36:24]  And, you know, once you get the heart out, you know, anesthesia is done.
[01:36:30]  Right.
[01:36:30]  You know, they shut the machine down, we leave, and then they get the liver and the kidneys and all that.
[01:36:36]  Well, we were done about 2-3 in the morning, shut the room down, and shut the OR down, locked it up, and we go into the lounge and we're eating our lunch.
[01:36:48]  Well, about 15 minutes later, this is a donor story.
[01:36:52]  It's a little different than what you've been talking about tonight.
[01:36:55]  That's right.
[01:36:57]  One of the doctors that's on call comes into the lounge and starts yelling at me.
[01:37:03]  I said, What's going on?
[01:37:04]  You know, the nurse, the circulator is there, the surgical tech.
[01:37:08]  And he starts yelling.
[01:37:09]  He goes, When I talk to you, I want you to answer me.
[01:37:11]  Don't just walk away.
[01:37:14]  I said, What are you talking about, Doc?
[01:37:15]  I said, I've been in here for 20 minutes eating lunch.
[01:37:18]  He goes, Well, I just went into the room to get my head ramp, and you were in there, and you walked out the back door.
[01:37:25]  And I asked you a question, and he just kind of waved and said, like, bye to me, and just walked out into the scrub area.
[01:37:33]  And he goes, Next time you do that, he goes, I'll write you up.
[01:37:37]  And then the nurse goes, Doctor, you know, there's no one in this OR but us three people.
[01:37:44]  He goes, she goes, you just must be imagining it.
[01:37:50]  She goes, no one's in that room.
[01:37:52]  That was the room that we did the procurement in.
[01:37:55]  And the doctor goes, look, there's a little guy, just his size.
[01:38:00]  I ask him a question, he walks away from me.
[01:38:04]  The man that we did the procurement on was about my size.
[01:38:10]  His eyes just kind of, you know, he didn't want to fight us.
[01:38:15]  He goes, you've got to be kidding.
[01:38:17]  I said, no, doc.
[01:38:18]  I said, there's no one in there but us.
[01:38:20]  I'm the only man here.
[01:38:22]  I've been here for 20 minutes.
[01:38:24]  He just kind of looked at me.
[01:38:25]  I said, we just did a procurement in there an hour ago.
[01:38:30]  And you've never seen a doctor carrying pale white in all your life.
[01:38:34]  He just looked at us and walked away.
[01:38:36]  But like you said, we told this story.
[01:38:39]  He would never acknowledge it.
[01:38:41]  All right, I appreciate the call.
[01:38:43]  Thank you.
[01:38:44]  That's way out there, but not particularly way out for this program.
[01:38:49]  Well, you know what?
[01:38:50]  He raises talking about way out, another issue that some of the people asking me about my research asked me.
[01:38:55]  And they said, you're talking about the recipient's connection to the donor.
[01:38:59]  Now, this is going to really stretch your imagination.
[01:39:01]  Donor is gone.
[01:39:03]  But as your caller just said, what about the donor's connection to the recipient?

=== Non-Local Connections (14:32) ===

[01:39:08]  If we are really embracing non-locality in its fullest extent, then isn't it possible that that donor is still connecting with that recipient?
[01:39:18]  Well, if we're embracing it, then it's almost a sure bet.
[01:39:21]  Yeah, and so that really raises complicated issues here and may deal with what you said you were encountering when you're talking about people having I know when Dr. Schwartz is on and talks about people contacting those who've passed over, that's right.
[01:39:33]  Maybe, just maybe this is playing some role in that first time caller line.
[01:39:40]  You're on the air with Dr. Paul Pearsall.
[01:39:41]  Hi hi um, mr Bell, thank you for taking my call.
[01:39:45]  You're very welcome.
[01:39:46]  Where are you?
[01:39:46]  I am in Lakewood Ohio, which is by Cleveland.
[01:39:49]  Okay, I only have two questions for dr Piersall.
[01:39:52]  I have no stories.
[01:39:53]  Uh, I would like to know if uh, are the synchronized pulsing of the cells from two different people also applicable to people in animal blood like perhaps, mrs Awkins, the chicken heart.
[01:40:06]  Are you familiar with mrs Aukins?
[01:40:08]  No, i'm not.
[01:40:08]  No oh, she's been around for nearly a century.
[01:40:11]  I mean it's, it is a chicken heart that has been alive for nearly a century.
[01:40:16]  Uh, that's not in the people heart field, of course.
[01:40:18]  So perhaps, and my other question is, in other words, does an animal, would an animal heart uh synchronize in the same way with a human heart, or even the blood cells?
[01:40:28]  No, it's a very good, it's an interesting.
[01:40:30]  That's an interesting question and I have to answer that we've certainly not done research on that.
[01:40:34]  Well, people and animals together, perhaps would the blood still beat in synchrony.
[01:40:38]  Well, you know, I don't know if this is addressing your question, but one thing we have found is that uh, this is apocryphal, but I had a blind patient who had terrible heart cardiac arrhythmias and the only time those arrhythmias would steady out was when he had his hand on the heart of his dog.
[01:40:55]  I've I've heard of this.
[01:40:56]  You follow what I mean?
[01:40:57]  Oh, yes, that's what I mean.
[01:40:58]  But not only that, we've had several children, I'm sure you know of this, who have had seizures, and they have dogs that sense the seizure far before it happens and are able to go and throw the child down and hold the child down so they don't get hurt.
[01:41:12]  So I think that in some way addresses what you're talking about.
[01:41:14]  Yes, it does.
[01:41:15]  It does.
[01:41:16]  I have another question, if I may.
[01:41:17]  You may.
[01:41:18]  Cloning has been a reality for decades, also nearly a century, since almost the turn of the century, actually.
[01:41:25]  And transplants are fine for what they do, but when can we start looking forward to regeneration of our own organs the way our liver already regenerates itself?
[01:41:35]  I want to be able to regenerate everything in my body.
[01:41:38]  Would that be nice if we could do that?
[01:41:41]  But we are getting close, as you pointed out.
[01:41:44]  Absolutely, we are getting close to the bottom.
[01:41:45]  I don't know cloning of individual organs.
[01:41:48]  Right.
[01:41:49]  And I really don't, that's not outside of my area of expertise.
[01:41:53]  I don't know.
[01:41:54]  But it does raise several other issues, doesn't it, in terms of what we're talking about tonight?
[01:41:58]  Oh, boy.
[01:41:59]  And they're beyond my competence right now.
[01:42:01]  But I think your question is a very important and interesting one that has to also be addressed when we do such things as cloning.
[01:42:09]  Because what does this mean in terms of the energy, the memories, the electromagnetic aspects, and all that stuff we've talked about for these three hours?
[01:42:16]  Very important issue to research.
[01:42:17]  Sure is.
[01:42:18]  Wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Farsoll.
[01:42:21]  Hi.
[01:42:21]  Thanks.
[01:42:22]  This is Susan in the Detroit area.
[01:42:24]  Susan in Detroit.
[01:42:25]  You're going to have to kind of yell at us on here.
[01:42:26]  You're not too loud.
[01:42:27]  Go ahead.
[01:42:27]  CK, Olivia.
[01:42:28]  Right.
[01:42:28]  Stay Detroit.
[01:42:30]  Hi there.
[01:42:30]  I'm a WSU person, too.
[01:42:32]  Oh, I had my transplant in Detroit.
[01:42:36]  Yeah, you know, I'm confused.
[01:42:38]  Well, this is not the main question.
[01:42:40]  Was it a bone marrow transplant or a heart transplant?
[01:42:42]  A bone marrow transplant.
[01:42:43]  Okay, I got it.
[01:42:44]  The Charter Hospital.
[01:42:45]  Oh, yes, of course.
[01:42:47]  They have the first heart transplant machine there on display.
[01:42:50]  You may remember.
[01:42:51]  I do, for sure.
[01:42:52]  As I said earlier in the show, I spent a lot of time among everybody who was getting transplants of all kinds.
[01:42:56]  Oh, wow.
[01:42:57]  This is fabulous.
[01:42:58]  Listen, I've heard a couple of comments and then one quick question.
[01:43:01]  I've heard the lungs described as the pump, and the heart then is the valve.
[01:43:10]  When engineers are presented, it was just a schematic drawing representing the heart but not identified that way and asked what it is.
[01:43:16]  They say it's a valve.
[01:43:17]  And it's interesting, think about that, whether you think the lungs might be the pump.
[01:43:20]  Well, I don't know if you heard earlier in the show.
[01:43:22]  Oh, I did, about the blood swinging through, so I don't know.
[01:43:24]  I said nothing about the lungs.
[01:43:26]  Yeah, I think that there's a good rationale for what you're saying because I'm not so sure either that our model of the heart is just the pump is accurate either.
[01:43:34]  No, Valve.
[01:43:35]  Anyway, the other thing is, do you think that the Bach remedies out of England would be of any use for the people suffering from nightmares?
[01:43:43]  Once they make their stories known and they're properly recorded as data, and before their own system stabilizes, maybe they could be helped with those.
[01:43:52]  And if that's not familiar, I can give you a couple of quick references.
[01:43:55]  I only know a little bit about it, but I think the answer would be yes to that.
[01:43:58]  I think when I asked that earlier, that might be helpful.
[01:44:01]  Yeah, get the Philip Chancellor case book.
[01:44:04]  He's the author of the case book.
[01:44:06]  And then MacTeild Schaefer out of I think Switzerland has done a wonderful book which concentrates on using them for psychological purposes rather than any tie-in to the physical.
[01:44:16]  That's a very good lead.
[01:44:17]  Okay, last of all, there is a circle that comes back from the brain to the body in my mind, and that is that while the brain may be selfish, there is an unselfish, very universal aspect to that neocortex, which does not have any sight, any physical sight, but it does have a very wide reach.
[01:44:39]  And that's the part of the brain which can make the circle back to the loving heart, I think.
[01:44:43]  I think you're right, and I hope I'm not embarrassing Arthur, but I do believe on the website that Art's going to have somebody who wrote a book called Why God Won't Go Away.
[01:44:51]  Oh, wonderful.
[01:44:51]  And he's a very careful researcher who has identified what you're talking about in terms of when we fully, really concentrate.
[01:44:59]  You know, I always tell my patients that you know you're healthy if you can stop thinking without falling asleep.
[01:45:05]  You know what I mean by that?
[01:45:07]  And when you do that, the areas of the brain that make you selfish, separate you from other people, shut down and you feel at one with everything.
[01:45:15]  I'm sure Art School will be doing whatever that man is on.
[01:45:18]  There's one researcher in particular who runs that circuit for us.
[01:45:22]  Okay, well, he didn't run it back to the heart.
[01:45:24]  Yeah, I guess he did.
[01:45:25]  Thank you.
[01:45:25]  I'll let you go.
[01:45:26]  All right, take care.
[01:45:27]  Somebody in Tawn, Nashville, Tennessee, asks an interesting question, and that is, do you notice any difference between the effect of heart recipients and the effect of multiple, I mean, sometimes it's hearts and lungs and multiple organs.
[01:45:47]  We're doing some amazing things.
[01:45:49]  Is the effect at all magnified, or is there not enough research yet with multiple transplants?
[01:45:57]  Since I'm doing a lot of the research, there's not been enough of that kind, but the answer so far is a tentative yes, because the cases that we've had when there's been this heart lung transplantation, particularly, which is a lot of tissue going in and a lot of cells, yes, the effect does seem to be more found, more profound.
[01:46:13]  But you're going to have cynics now say, well, that's because the surgery was more radical.
[01:46:18]  They were sicker people.
[01:46:19]  There's arguments for it.
[01:46:20]  But the answer is absolutely, unequivocally, yes.
[01:46:24]  I had a patient the other day who had a new liver.
[01:46:28]  Just to show you, we're talking about the heart.
[01:46:30]  And this was the most calm, gentle woman prior to her surgery.
[01:46:34]  She had to leave the room when her husband watched football.
[01:46:36]  It was too violent.
[01:46:37]  She got the liver of a boxer.
[01:46:41]  Now she's a pro-rationaling, boxing, violent fan.
[01:46:46]  So it shows you it's not just the heart.
[01:46:48]  That's amazing.
[01:46:50]  All right.
[01:46:51]  East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Pearsall.
[01:46:54]  Where are you, please?
[01:46:56]  Cincinnati.
[01:46:57]  I'm sorry.
[01:46:57]  I didn't get you up there quickly enough.
[01:46:59]  All right, you're on the air.
[01:47:00]  Okay, I'm glad to talk to you, Art.
[01:47:02]  And for the doctor, you were talking before about how the heart, you know, remembers things and that.
[01:47:08]  And even in the Bible, it states how Jesus even said, let not your heart be troubled.
[01:47:16]  And even it says, God knows what's in your heart.
[01:47:19]  There were many such references, yes.
[01:47:21]  That's a very, very important point you're making, because aside from Western science, indigenous science, scripture, religion has always talked about the importance of the role of the heart and a pure heart.
[01:47:33]  Yeah, because it even says that Jesus said, first thou shalt love the Lord with your heart, then with your soul, then with your mind.
[01:47:41]  Well, it doesn't say think it over first, does it?
[01:47:44]  That's exactly right.
[01:47:46]  West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Pearsall.
[01:47:49]  Hi.
[01:47:49]  Aloha, Art.
[01:47:50]  Aloha.
[01:47:50]  Oh, Aloha.
[01:47:51]  Hawaii and back to Hawaii, huh?
[01:47:53]  Yeah, volcano on the big island right across the water from the doctor.
[01:47:57]  Oh, aloha.
[01:47:58]  Aloha.
[01:47:58]  Pahea.
[01:48:00]  Oh, Mai Kai.
[01:48:01]  Oh, Ovauke Kahi.
[01:48:04]  Art, this is probably the best show, and I've listened for years that you've ever done as far as really getting into the heart of things.
[01:48:11]  No fun intended.
[01:48:13]  Thank you.
[01:48:14]  And doctor, and today's, I guess it was today's advertiser, this lady who has very kindly donated a kidney.
[01:48:21]  Oh, I saw it.
[01:48:22]  I didn't get to read the article.
[01:48:23]  She's on Maui, and she just felt that she should feed back into the system, and she volunteered her kidney to anyone who could need one.
[01:48:32]  And sure enough, there's a fellow on Maui who needs one.
[01:48:34]  They're compatible.
[01:48:35]  And the surgery is going to be performed at St. Francis in the next couple of days.
[01:48:40]  Isn't that something?
[01:48:41]  And what a fortunate person, because with a loving lady like that, just think of the energy he's going to be getting.
[01:48:45]  That fellow is going to have a charmed life.
[01:48:48]  And also, I want to make a big plug.
[01:48:49]  I'm an organ donor, and I wish everybody listening would consider it as the nicest thing you could do for everybody.
[01:48:56]  So, as I said earlier, it's a sacred, it is true aloha.
[01:48:59]  You know, Hawaiians speak of the na'au from the center of pain, and that's what if there's anything that comes out of the show, if anybody's thinking about donation, do it.
[01:49:08]  Well, aloha, kakoa, pal.
[01:49:09]  Aloha.
[01:49:10]  Take care.
[01:49:11]  All right.
[01:49:11]  Well, Aloha.
[01:49:13]  Doctor, what are the statistics?
[01:49:17]  How many people before their demise agree to organ donation?
[01:49:23]  Do you have any idea?
[01:49:24]  You sent analyzer?
[01:49:25]  I think it's going to, I don't know, it's a very low percent.
[01:49:28]  The saddest thing I do, Art, is to go around on rounds and see these patients praying and praying for their life and for an organ.
[01:49:38]  And to see how, and they feel so badly when they see them wasted.
[01:49:41]  The other.
[01:49:42]  Well, that was going to be my next question.
[01:49:44]  Should that stop?
[01:49:45]  Should that waste stop?
[01:49:46]  Should there be, I don't know, you hate to say it because it's a personal thing and there ought not be laws about personal things like this.
[01:49:55]  But, gosh, you're somebody about to die and, you know, wasted organs.
[01:50:01]  That's how most of us feel, but you certainly can't legislate it.
[01:50:04]  And, you know, it's certainly a loving, caring act.
[01:50:06]  So it's got to come from, here we go with that pun again, the heart.
[01:50:09]  It's got to be something you really want to do.
[01:50:11]  so education yeah it's just a matter of your show is done marbles tonight because okay that man just said from Hawaii uh...
[01:50:19]  if there's two or three listeners out there say that doesn't I'm gonna really think about this You've done a miracle.
[01:50:23]  Well, they will.
[01:50:25]  Guaranteed.
[01:50:25]  Wildcard line, not a lot of time.
[01:50:27]  You're on the air with Dr. Pearsall.
[01:50:28]  Hello.
[01:50:29]  This is Mike from Amargosa calling.
[01:50:31]  Yes, sir.
[01:50:32]  I'm listening on KNYE broadcasting from Prump on 95.1 FM.
[01:50:36]  That's the way to do it.
[01:50:38]  When I was a teenager, I read the teachings of an Indian spiritual teacher who said that whenever people say I from all over the world, say I referring to themselves, they point to the same spot, two digits to the right of the center of the chest between the two breaths.
[01:50:54]  So I've observed this for about 25 years now, and 100% of the time when people have said I without thinking instinctively, they have always pointed to the same spot.
[01:51:05]  And so I was just wondering if Dr. Piersall has ever observed to see, in terms of the seat of consciousness, where people with their finger actually point to automatically, even young children from all over the world when they say I.
[01:51:20]  We tested even Art on that earlier in the show, and he did that.
[01:51:24]  And it absolutely works.
[01:51:26]  And it's funny, not only that, when we tell somebody a very funny joke and it's really point there.
[01:51:32]  If it's a shock or a sad thing, you've seen that?
[01:51:35]  Oh, my goodness.
[01:51:36]  Oh, my gosh.
[01:51:37]  Yes.
[01:51:38]  They point to that.
[01:51:39]  So it seems like almost our body's trying to remind us.
[01:51:42]  Hey, have a heart, will you?
[01:51:45]  There you are, caller.
[01:51:46]  All righty.
[01:51:46]  Thank you.
[01:51:47]  Thank you very much.
[01:51:48]  Now, Doctor, I know that you have a recent book on the subject of miracles, which we have.
[01:51:55]  Well, I guess in a way we've been talking about miracles tonight of a sort.
[01:51:59]  But you've written a new book about miracles.
[01:52:02]  A miracle in Maui describes some of this and some of these things we're talking about with non-locality and how this stuff can really happen.
[01:52:08]  So from my perspective, tonight's show could just be like chapter one for the radio, and we've probably got enough material to do a whole nother show.
[01:52:19]  Are you kidding?
[01:52:20]  You get a Hawaiian going.
[01:52:21]  You could probably, you could just leave Art.
[01:52:22]  I'll just talk.
[01:52:25]  Yeah, well, that's been suggested, too.
[01:52:28]  There's tons.
[01:52:29]  I know that they didn't want to get into the miracle, issue today, but the research on miracles, again, pushes the envelope far beyond this.
[01:52:36]  Well, we should do an entire program on that is what I am a really important follow-up to this show.
[01:52:42]  Okay, and so There is contact information if people will go to your books.
[01:52:47]  And your books are on my website, all linked on my website.
[01:52:51]  Absolutely.
[01:52:51]  Those people who really need the research, too, if they go back to Miracle and Maui or The Hearts Code, they'll find the data to support what we've said tonight.
[01:53:01]  Then I think not only the average person, but perhaps some heart transplant surgeons and people in the medical field probably ought to do a little reading as well, eh?
[01:53:11]  Absolutely.
[01:53:12]  I think that the time has come to really consider this as a serious research issue.
[01:53:15]  Doctor, thank you so very much for being here tonight.
[01:53:19]  What an excellent guest you've been.
[01:53:20]  You'll be back soon, trust me.
[01:53:22]  Thanks for all the support, Art.
[01:53:24]  Good night, Doctor.
[01:53:24]  Aloha.
[01:53:25]  Aloha, indeed.
[01:53:27]  All right, well, folks, that's it for tonight.
[01:53:29]  What an incredible interview that was.
[01:53:31]  That definitely will go down as a classic.
[01:53:35]  From the high desert, a little town called Perump.
[01:53:37]  I'm Art Bell.