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Sept. 5, 2002 - Art Bell
02:46:32
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Richard C. Hoagland - Cydonia Region Of Mars
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♪ From the high desert and the great American Southwest,
I bid you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon, whatever time zone you may be residing in at the moment.
I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM, live talk radio throughout the nighttime.
This night's program, this morning's program, whatever, is so important, and there's so much information to get to you that we are going to begin in the first hour with it.
It is, of course, Richard C. Hoagland.
Who is a former museum space science curator, a former NASA consultant, and during the historic Apollo missions to the moon, was science advisor to Walter Cronkite and CBS News.
For the past 19 years, Richard has been leading an outside scientific team in a critically acclaimed independent analysis of possible, listen very closely, possible intelligently designed artifacts on NASA and other data sets, beginning with the unmanned NASA Viking mission to Mars back in 1976 and its provocative images of a region called Cydonia.
Of course, the face.
In 1993, Koglund was awarded the International Angstrom Medal for Excellence in Science by the Angstrom Foundation in Stockholm, Sweden, for that continuing research.
The past four years, he and his team's investigations have been quietly Extended to include over 30 years of previously hidden data from NASA, Soviet, and Pentagon missions to the Moon, with startling results.
And startling is certainly the word that would be appropriate for what he's going to say tonight.
It lies directly ahead.
Well, this is going to be one of the perhaps most startling programs we've ever done with some pretty serious information in it about Mars.
And I'm not sure how else to begin other than to say That's the reason we're starting in the first hour, because of the gravity of the show.
Here from the mountains of New Mexico is Richard C. Hoagland.
Richard, welcome.
Good evening, Art.
Welcome back.
Thank you.
This show has been, I guess, cooking, or you've been developing the material for this, for how long?
This has been in the oven for at least a month.
At least a month.
Right.
And a couple times we came very close to coming on the program and publishing our results.
And each time we had good reason to pause and go back and recheck numbers and sources and data and integrity and tonight, finally, I mean, we've got to give birth to this baby or else I'm not going to be around much longer.
I understand.
Let's give some birth here.
In other words, first, before we even begin down the trail of how you got to where you are, what is the bottom line?
Are you saying that there are Architectural designs.
There is some sort of irrefutable proof of cities, I don't know if that's the right word, cities, urban type development, kind of like what they're talking about off the coast of Cuba, on Mars, and that you've uncovered this information with the new IR color data.
Is that the bottom line?
That's the bottom line.
And in fact, it's very eerie.
You should bring up the Cuba ruins.
Because we have found these roughly at the same depth under Cydonia that the Cuban ruins were found by Paulino Zolitsky of Cuba.
That's 2200 feet.
Roughly half a mile down.
Now, the reason that I'm on the show tonight, the reason we're publishing, we over at Enterprise have a We have the press release.
We sent out a press release to 4,000 members of the mainstream press all over the world today.
I've got a copy of the press release here.
It's like seven pages long.
Well, five pages long.
It's five pages with background, but obviously the important stuff is in the first two or three paragraphs.
We have been working on this ever since this audience, your audience, while you were on vacation.
Working very hard with the leadership of George in that chair.
And George does really a damn good job.
He certainly does.
He was able to get enough people to email and fax NASA and the folks at EASU, Arizona State University, the project leadership of the Mars Odyssey mission, which is currently orbiting Mars tonight, to basically get kicked loose a daytime color infrared image of Cydonia.
After months and months and months and months and months of foot-dragging, and excuses, and, oh, the dog ate it, and, oh, it's not processed, and it's not calibrated, and it's on my dining room table, but I forgot to bring it in.
I mean, everything possible, this audience, these people out there listening to us tonight, Art, stepped up to the plate one more time, with feeling, and did what good Americans do in the clinch.
They made their voices heard, and they got something.
Now, for a lot of this, initially, in the first few Hours after we saw it posted on the website at ASU on July 24th of this year, which is over a month ago, we thought we'd been had once again.
What do you mean?
Well, because what we had demanded, what we'd asked for, was the nighttime infrared image of Cydonia.
Okay.
My sources, and we'll get into this much later in the evening, much more heavily later in the evening, in Washington have told me unequivocally that what we really want to see If after tonight you think you've seen anything on the daytime images, wait till you see the nighttime, because that's where the payoff is.
That's where the big prize that I've been looking for now for 20-some years, namely the unequivocal proof of the ruins of an extraterrestrial civilization on Mars, Apparently, lie.
You have the nighttime IR?
No, we know that it exists and we're going to use everyone out there tonight to get it.
Alright, but to what degree of certainty, with regard to the photographs you've got now, the daytime color IR photographs, to what degree of certainty can you sit here tonight and declare you have found architectural ruins on Mars?
With the provision that the data we are looking at is real.
Which I'll get into in the next hour or so.
Yes.
I would say that my confidence level is now 99.999999 percent.
That's pretty high.
I think it's there.
Alright, now... And there are a whole bunch of reasons that we're going to go through.
All the tests we've done, all the cross-checking, all the various inter-scene viewings we've done.
All of this comes up that we're looking at real data And what's really there is there.
And I would like to also add in the next hour we're going to bring on the NASA Associated Man who supplied you with these images.
Because what makes this so extraordinary, Art, is this data did not come to us directly.
It was filtered through a trusted colleague who has been working for a year or two with the NASA Ames Mars Web Program doing image processing for them as part of this worldwide A virtual Mars network that they've set up for investigators to plug into NASA data anywhere in the world.
And as part of that system, he has established a lot of contacts with the NASA Ames people, with people in Washington, other NASA centers, with Dr. Malin and his group.
And it was to him that this image actually was lovingly and cherishedly bequeathed, not to us.
And we believe that this was part of someone's plan to give the data, the pristine, stunning, real, seamless, infrared data of Cydonia, not to Hoagland & Company, who instantly would be accused of making everything up because, of course, we want it to be real, but to someone that was one of their own, someone that it would be a little harder To accuse of fabrication, of fraud, of hoax, etc., etc., as the spin doctors will go to work, and you know they will.
Well, so why don't I ask you right away, to what degree are you certain that you have not been hoaxed?
That's a very important question.
Yep.
Well, again, within the limits of the information we are able to wrest from NASA on these images.
I don't need it to as many decimal points here.
They are not forthcoming at all about even the heritage of the images that they have published.
There's no ancillary data for any of the images up on the Odyssey website tonight.
There's no sun angles, there's no orbit numbers, there's no even day when they take the pictures.
The pictures that are up there are the day they are released.
They could be, you know, again like Dr. Mellon used to do, keep them in a drawer for months before they put them up.
Alright, uh, we're good?
No, I am, to answer your question, Art, I am extraordinarily confident because of the way this image was acquired, and we're going to go into that in exquisite detail, The processing steps that were applied to it, we're going to go into that in great detail, and the character and integrity of the individual who got it, namely Keith Laney, and we'll go into that in detail.
Okay.
Keith Laney, then, is the man associated with NASA, and what does he do?
He works on the East Coast.
He lives in Charlotte, North Carolina, not far from where my old homestead used to be.
Right.
He is an independent contractor.
He does image processing.
He's been a member of the anomalous community, meaning he's looked at moon data and Mars data, whatever, for years and years and years.
And as I said, in the last year or so, he was accepted by the NASA program at NASA Ames to work on data for them in preparation for the unmanned rover landings on Mars in 2004.
Okay, so he's doing serious work for NASA.
Exactly.
He's seriously trusted by NASA, and I can announce tonight that he went to his bosses there And asked them if they would be interesting in publishing the data we are publishing tonight ourselves.
Yes.
And they said yes.
So NASA will publish.
NASA aims, the Margaret Webb Program... Is going to publish what everybody is going to see tonight.
What everyone is seeing and what Keith is going to come on in the next hour and discuss in great detail as to how he acquired it.
Alright.
Back to your central question.
What do we see?
What is down there?
Yep.
Well, the whole reason for taking an infrared picture is because it isn't a black and white.
It isn't a surface scan.
It isn't looking merely at the top of Mars.
But if you pick the right band, if you pick the right wavelength, you basically can get
penetration into and beneath the surface of another planet.
Infrared photography, Richard, looks for heat signatures, or looks for difference in heat.
In other words, if there's something... Well, right.
But generally, that's the... Well, if you're looking at shortwave infrared, it's basically light a little longer in wavelength than its reflection.
Uh-huh.
The band Themis, which stands for Thermal Emission Imaging System.
You pegged it.
This is a camera which is looking at heat being emitted by objects on Mars.
Right, so for those who don't understand, how you might see an object beneath the surface of Mars would be a delta, a difference between the heat on the surface and the heat beneath the surface.
Exactly.
That's what it's looking at and that's how it's developing What you are seeing.
Well, plus, Mars has a unique environment.
And I think tonight, as we go through this, you're going to find that if Mars were not the place it is, and had the unique history it has, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.
Because I don't think even the NASA people, even the Themis team understands, fully understands, although there is some indication from an abstract, that the principal investigator of the Themis camera, Dr. Christensen, published this afternoon, In Washington, prior to the October DPS meeting, which is a major scientific meeting, a division of planetary sciences that is held every year, he said that on other data taken by this camera since February, they've been in operation orbiting Mars, taking these kinds of infrared images since February of this year, February 18th, they have now found evidence of subterranean, sub-Marsian?
Sub-Aryan?
Valley networks of rivers that are not visible on either the Viking image or the Mars Global Surveyor.
All right, well that makes sense.
Water would be a different temperature.
No, no, no, no.
These are dry valley networks.
These are empty.
These don't have water in them.
Yeah, I know, but the IR signature still would be looking at a slightly different temperature when it sees those.
What the IR is doing, this is crucial to our case for Cydonia, It's looking through the upper layers of the Martian dirt.
Sure.
On Mars, it isn't dirt.
You used a term last night, which I thought was so incredibly appropriate.
Your first night back, you used a term you had no idea was going to be relevant tonight.
You used the term poof dust or poof dirt.
Poof dirt, yeah, we've got it out here.
Well, on Mars, you have trillions of cubic meters of it.
It hasn't rained on Mars in literally millions If not more years.
How much poof dirt is in the Cydonia region?
According to, and this is going to really blow people's minds, according to an independent instrument on another spacecraft that everybody except us had forgotten, the laser, the laser pinger, the device that is actually doing profile, or was up until the instrument broke a few months ago, doing profiling around Mars, The depth of the basin in which this city lies is almost as deep under Cydonia as the Grand Canyon.
Wow.
And the pinger, the laser used to do the profiles, is 10.6 microns.
The images that we're looking at range from 6.62 to 12.58.
So the laser is in the infrared, the thermal infrared, in the middle of the precise wave band we're looking at with these pictures.
And so what we're seeing with the laser, in terms of bottom profiling, is apparently going down through an enormous amount of extraordinarily dry and finely divided dust.
Poof dirt.
Poof dirt!
With not water vapor, Or nitrogen or oxygen, but basically nothing but carbon dioxide.
Alright, let me ask this, Richard.
What is creating the difference in temperature at the artifacts you claim you found from the poof?
Oh, you want to get it all out in the first hour, huh?
I just want to understand, technically, how you're confident about these images.
We are very confident, as you can see.
Our initial model was, we're looking at stuff that's warmed By the sun.
Mars is very cold, particularly in the Northern Hemisphere this time of year, because it's basically just spring.
Right.
So the background is really, really, really cold.
And how cold is it?
It's like 130, 150 degrees below zero.
Very cold.
Very cold.
OK.
So you have sunlight, which at Mars is roughly a quarter of sunlight here.
But during the day, from dawn to dusk, it will warm things up.
And then at night, they'll cool off.
How warm?
Well, the actual ground rock temperatures probably get up to maybe 20 below zero.
So it goes from 130 below at night to 20 below zero on the ground during the winter and spring.
In the summer, at the equator, the temperature on Mars can go up to like 78 degrees.
70 or 80 degrees?
Ground temperature.
I remember the air is... But in the area of question, the Cydonia region.
Yep, which is at New York's latitude on Mars.
It's going to range between minus 170 or so and minus 20.
To maybe minus 20, 30 in the daytime.
Okay, so now I want to understand how it allows this difference to be seen through this incredible amount of poof dirt.
Why is the temperature different below?
Well, the first model, when we were looking at this, and we'll go into how we tripped over all this, we thought we were looking at structures that were basically sitting underneath the poof dirt, the dust.
I mean, this is finer than talcum powder.
This stuff has been pulverized and pulverized, and no one, I think, even the NASA people, have appreciated how it will drift and sit and stay in deep valleys and canyons.
Dr. Grishamson is seeing these ancient river networks.
Oh, I have no problem whatsoever believing that.
I mean, when I told you I poofed dirt out here, and there are areas in the valley here where the poofed dirt is like quicksand, Richard.
You drop a screwdriver, or throw it a little bit, and it goes poof!
And it disappears, just like something went into quicksand.
And so... This is probably a hundred to a thousand times worse.
That's here on Earth.
Okay, I can understand how that could occur.
And it's because Mars hasn't had any water for so long.
Understood.
With the exception of that which we've discovered underneath Mars.
That is frozen.
That has not been released in a hydrological cycle.
There's no rain clouds or thunderstorms on Mars.
Right.
But now, get to it.
How is there a difference in temperature?
Well, the first model we had was that the sunlight, infrared energy, heat energy from the sun, was warming stuff up underneath the poof dirt during the day.
And as it warmed it up, it would warm it up differentially.
In other words, things that are dark will absorb more energy than things that are light.
Makes sense, right.
And then they would begin to radiate their own heat.
And that would come back up through the dust.
All right, all of that makes sense, but... To the infrared camera, the dust is almost as transparent as glass.
It doesn't see the dust particles, because the wavelength of energy is so long, it diffracts around the dust.
Isn't it critical to understand whether that heating can occur to the depth that you're talking about here?
That's the crucial question.
Okay.
So the more we looked at this, and if you look in detail at the images, and you match them with the MOLA profiles,
we have a shallow area north of the face on Mars.
Remember, this is the region of the infamous face.
The shallow region is only a few hundred feet below the surface.
The region below the face to the south of it, across that basin,
is down to 3,000 feet arc below the surface that we see.
My God.
And I started working the other night with Ron Nix, who's our...
Now I think I just understood why you want the night photographs,
because at night the surface cools.
The differential between that which you're trying to see and the surface is much greater.
Exactly.
The signal to noise, or the haze, or the blockage, you know... Would be far less.
It would be far less, and you'd be able to see this stuff under The dust is a pooster.
I got it.
I got it.
Hold on, Richard.
A city.
An entire city in the Cydonia region of Mars.
So not only are we going... I guess saying the face is artificial, but we're saying it's part of something much, much bigger.
An entire city beneath the surface of Mars.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Step inside, but you don't see too many.
Coming in.
Coming in.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
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800-893-0903. This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
This is certainly very serious stuff, no matter how you take it.
And I know some stick their noses in the air and, you know, sniff BS.
But I think that all of you should examine an effort this serious with the kinds of consequences for mankind, should it be true.
I'll read you just the first paragraph of the press release.
You can read the entire thing on a link on my website.
Enterprise mission investigators confirm presence of artificial structures on Mars.
But conflicting database sets raise serious legal and political questions.
New research by investigators for the Enterprise mission, a private not-for-profit space science research organization, has revealed overwhelming evidence of ancient artificial structures on Mars.
Working with recently released daytime infrared imaging of the Cydonia region of the planet Mars, a team of independent investigators from around the world has uncovered clear and unmistakable evidence of a massive city-like grid structure just beneath the dusty surface of this northern Martian desert.
In addition, individual buildings the size of city blocks have been revealed that display unambiguous evidence of architectural design.
Those are very strong words.
That's the first paragraph of what you can read on my website right now.
Just go to the website, go to artbell.com.
Tonight's program and information and all of that and much more await you.
I have always been suspicious there was life on Mars.
Billions of years ago, I have no problem grasping the concept that there may well have been life on Mars.
Mars, we know, was a very different place.
It had an atmosphere, it had moisture, it had water, it had all the ingredients that
you'd need for life before something happened to Mars, and that's another argument and another
program probably, but it certainly had the setup for life.
No question about it.
So could there have been an entire civilization then covered up in the manner being described
tonight, should there not be cities found?
Actually, I've got a couple questions, Richard.
Shouldn't there be cities found, not just here at Cydonia, but perhaps in many regions of Mars?
Precisely.
The answer to that is yes, then?
Yes.
Right.
And the Soviets back in 1989, Art, with the same kind of thermal infrared camera system, they found some.
And they published their data.
Somebody, uh... And no one believed them.
Fast Blasting Me from Arizona says, come on, BS.
Thermal infrared energy can't see through more than about a hundred microns of dust.
Well, then those people don't know what they're talking about.
Okay.
All right.
How are you... Is there any way that you can technically substantiate the fact it could look through that much, even light dust?
Yes, because of the laser.
I had a long discussion this afternoon with Ron Nix, who, as you know, is one of our geologists.
Of course.
He's preparing a paper, a technical paper on this.
We'll publish later in the week, or maybe early next week.
Every time we give an estimate as to how long it's going to take us to do something on this, it's just so extraordinary, and we have to check so many things.
Yeah.
It just takes long time.
I understand the workload must be incredible, sure.
Yeah, of course.
Anyway, so Ron and I were discussing, and he was dumbfounded by this Yes.
entire panoply of evidence. The most striking thing to him and to me came out of a conversation
that we had literally three nights ago. This was in the interregnum before we were going
to come on the last time. Yes. What happened was a conversation with Ron and I'm leading
Ron through the imagery. By the way, can you get to the images? Oh yes.
Okay, call up number one.
I have number one sitting.
Alright, we're talking about Artbell.com, the way you just go up to the website, Artbell.com, go to program, go to tonight's guest info when you get there, under the name Richard C. Holand, which will be immediately apparent.
You'll see images, second link down, images 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.
Listed them laterally.
I have one on my screen.
I've got it there.
Alright, number one is a big composite graphic.
It's the actual... It's the strip.
Infrared images on the left.
A composite of a portion of the infrared image and a visual image taken by Odyssey a few months ago is in the upper right.
Down below that is the infrared image laid over the visible image of the face on Mars.
Got it.
And at the bottom is the portion of the infrared laid over the DNM pyramid.
Got it.
What is striking and what Ron and I were discussing is if you go look at the strip, and I don't know how big on your screen, can you, is it fairly big on your screen?
Big enough, yeah.
Okay.
Do you see that pattern of strange blocks Where do you want me in the strip?
It's very long.
Start at the top of the image.
Yes.
Alright?
You see there's this rectilinear block-like pattern.
Yes.
It's not absolutely regular.
If it was, we would immediately dismiss it as noise, ringing, some kind of electronic artifact.
No, I see it.
I see it.
It is regularly irregular.
Yeah, okay.
Do you see where the face is?
But that's what a rock is.
Regularly irregular.
Well, the image you're looking at is about 20 miles wide.
Okay.
And the whole strip is 125 miles long.
Gotcha.
This is 2,000 square miles of Martian real estate.
Okay.
Alright?
Yes.
And as you look from the top to the bottom of the image, you will see that there is a qualitative change in these blocks, in these rectangles.
They appear to have little bright rims in the north of the face.
Yes, I assume that's the IR overlay.
What we're seeing is multiple colors.
We're seeing fissures between them.
We're seeing the tops brighter than the sides below them.
Well, OK, that's a pretty good argument that the IR is doing what you say it's doing.
OK.
Yeah, OK.
And the reason is that this is a very long wavelength.
I mean, to the particles that are there, the dust particles, which are very, very tiny, this is like transparent.
This energy goes right around them.
Now, do you notice that there appears to be a kind of a bluish cast to the top of the image?
Yes, I do.
OK.
That's the surface materials shining by sunlight.
And it's like looking through a frosted window.
In other words, if you are looking at a scene through a window which is illuminated at a side angle, and the window is scattering light, then you look through, the best definition would be you're looking through a windshield driving west toward the afternoon sun, the setting sun.
And you haven't cleaned your windshield in about 10 years.
Okay.
You have a hell of a time as a driver if that's the case.
That's right.
Because there's a landscape out there which is being lit by sunlight.
But the window is scattering sunlight as well.
Okay, but Richard... There's a haze between you and the stuff you really want to see.
I do understand that, but even as I look at this, help me and everybody else who's looking at this right now to differentiate between the irregular, irregular nature of rocks and geoformation and something... Keep in mind, do you see the face down there?
Of course.
The face is the Strange multicolored thing with a glowing orange eye on the left.
Yup.
The bright hood-like thing on the right.
Yup.
The blue shadow on the lower right.
All very clear.
Okay.
The face is about two miles square.
Okay.
Okay?
Look at the size of the blocks north of it and around it.
Uh, on.
In which photograph?
In the strip photograph.
I'm sorry, in the what?
In the strip photograph.
Oh, in the strip photograph.
One on the left.
I've got to go find the face on the strip photograph.
Okay, let me see if I can... Help me.
Um, it's about the top six of the image.
It's right in the middle.
Oh, there it is.
Okay.
See it?
Yep.
Glowing multicolored.
I see it.
Now around it, you see this strange geometric pattern.
And you can see that you've got edges to them, you've got bright rims.
I do see that.
And they're all oriented north, south, east, west.
Okay, I do see that.
Yes.
Ron and I were discussing this, and suddenly I said, you know, the biggest thing they're going to accuse us of is simply looking at noise.
I said, it's too bad there isn't an independent way to... and then I stopped and I said, oh my God.
Because there was.
Like what?
The MOLA laser on Mars Global Surveyor.
Alright?
Now what I need you to do, and I don't know whether you have pre-loaded these, alright?
I need you to go to the very last image.
I can do that.
The last picture.
Uh, seven?
Number seven.
Alright?
I am there.
Okay.
Do you see the black and white picture in the upper left?
Uh, actually, Richard, on number 7, well, upper left, you have black and white, sure.
Yeah, black and white, with a colored line going kind of catty-corner across.
Yeah, phase 4 and DNM are marked, and the line, yes.
Yep, yep, and it says molar cydonia profile.
Fine, I see it.
Okay, that is an actual trace of the laser on the Global Surveyor spacecraft, looking straight down, going ping, ping, ping, ping, ping.
Gotcha.
At the bottom of that is a graph.
And the graph is colored.
Oh, the dust surface.
And if you look where the dust is, and I'll get back to why we know that's where it is in a minute, but look at your color code on the right.
Right.
You see the color code?
It goes from minus 4,700 meters to minus 3,400 meters.
Right.
Now look at the profile.
The face, by the way, is the little yellow blip just to the left of the big red blip.
You see it?
Um... Looks like a tiny little yellow pyramid.
On the graph.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, I see it.
That's the face.
Everything to the left of that is north.
Okay.
Everything to the right of that is south.
Okay.
Look at that huge basin to the south.
Like the Grand Canyon.
Like the Grand Canyon.
Now look at the picture.
Do you see that on the picture?
Uh, no.
The picture's flat.
Yeah.
It's flat as a pancake.
It's flat as a pancake.
It's flat as a pancake, Dorothy.
So Ron and I are looking at this, and I said, Ron... So you're looking beneath a canyon filled with dust.
Exactly!
And no one, not even my dear friend Arthur C. Clarke, who wrote a brilliant novel that I always loved, about the moon, called Fall of Moondust.
Incredible novel.
Everybody's got to get this novel.
Who put together this scale?
I did.
You did?
Well, the scale was from MOLA.
The scale is from the official molar project.
But I mean, for example, in the very darkest blue, you know you're looking down minus 4,700 feet.
Meters.
Meters, rather.
Now, remember, this is relative.
So what you do is you subtract it from the dust level, which is the yellow.
Understood, yes.
Okay.
Now this was not, this scale is not made up by us, this is made up by Dr. David Smith and his colleagues at the Goddard Space Flight Center.
Alright, that's good.
My old alma mater, who's the principal investigator on the MOLA experiment on Mars Global Surveyor.
Alright, so the guy who says you can't look past millimeters is full of it then.
He's full of stuff, yeah.
Obviously you can't, full of push-pull science, everybody.
Alright, okay, fine, I'll buy that.
But this is what's so, so wild, Art.
Look at the details of the MOLA scan, alright?
Look really, really close.
Where do you want me?
Just any part of the Molas Camp.
The original strip, you mean?
No, no, no.
The actual graph.
The graph.
Okay, yes.
What about it?
What do you see?
You see structure.
You see that it's not a continuous line.
It goes up and down in stair steps.
It absolutely does, but why am I not to believe that's just a canyon-like geologic setup?
Well, why would a canyon-like geologic setup on Mars, where it hasn't rained in God knows how long, and it's supposed to be wind-scoured, why wouldn't it be smooth as a baby's you-know-what?
Why would it have stair-step profiles?
Why would it have, in this image, in the unobvisual, in the famous image, go back to strip number one, if you now match The strip, in other words, what you need to do is reorient yourself just a little bit.
But Richard, let's consider Earth for a second.
This is not Earth.
I know that.
But in our present climate, Mars did once have, you know, atmosphere and a lot of things it doesn't have now, like water.
A long, long time ago.
Yep.
Richard, consider the Grand Canyon.
Good example, right?
Now, Grand Canyon's better.
Go ahead and consider the Grand Canyon.
If Earth had a catastrophic event, and the Grand Canyon were to fill up with dust blowing from wind, which is, you know, after some, I don't know, after something hits a planet or something awful catastrophic happens, why couldn't I imagine the Grand Canyon filling With dust.
Oh, you could.
And it looking at IR just about the way this looks here.
Well, because there's no structure down.
There's no rock structure that would give you this rectilinear pattern.
These kind of patterns in terrestrial geology are very limited.
They're usually mud-cracking.
They're on a very small scale.
They're not on this vast scale.
They're not on the scale of Los Angeles.
I mean, we're looking at an area here the size of the Los Angeles Basin.
This is like you flew over Los Angeles and took a thermal infrared picture If the basin was filled with dust.
That one protrusion at about the center of this canyon must be incredibly high.
Let's see, it would be... Oh my God, we're looking at thousands of meters high.
Yeah, look at the... Go from the yellow to the green.
The yellow is about 4,000 meters and the red is about minus 37.
So that protrusion would be about how high?
Well, it's about 900 feet.
900 feet.
Yeah, well a face you know is 1,500 feet tall.
We always said the face was 1,500 feet tall.
And remember that the traces do not go directly across the face.
It's just a glancing blow on this particular orbit.
All right, to me, Richard, I'm just a common person, but you have made the case to me that you are looking through this dirt at what is below.
But you have not proven to me yet that this is anything other than looking down through the dirt at the geology below.
Okay.
This is where you need to go to photograph number two.
OK.
All right.
Absolutely.
All right.
I'm on my way.
And there comes photograph number two.
Looks like a. Oh, wow.
Kind of pretty anyway.
All right.
Oh, wait a minute.
Oh, my God.
Look closely.
Oh, my God.
That's what I said.
Oh, my God.
All right, Richard.
I'll be damned.
Oh my God.
You know what this looks like, folks?
It looks like... I'll tell you what it looks like.
It looks like you're looking at a Los Angeles housing community through the fog at night.
You know?
Or... Yeah, at night.
It looks like... I'll be damned if it doesn't look like buildings.
Buildings everywhere.
And they seem to have an incredible I mean, these buildings are... This is not possible, Richard.
Not on Earth.
But this is Mars.
Oh, my God.
Well, I'm seeing this for the first time, so please bear with me.
The very first time.
Now, on our website and in the papers we publish tonight, there are detailed close-ups and comparisons.
There's also an entire link To the full image page that we've created, where we have probably a couple of dozen of these images, close-ups of these buildings, comparisons, 3D... Oh, this one's a real knockout.
Now let me tell you how we did this.
This was total serendipity.
Total serendipity, which is, of course, the heart of any real science.
Boy, are you sure somebody didn't slip the L.A.
suburbs in on you here?
Well, this has been one of the questions that has been nagging us for the last couple weeks.
All right.
Are we going to be able to trace... I mean, are... If we didn't have the MOLA data, all right?
And remember, nobody on the MOLA team has said there is a canyon in Cydonia under that dust that's as deep as the Grand Canyon.
Have they?
No.
They have been incredibly silent, haven't they?
And everyone who's looked at the molar trace briefly has just assumed that you were looking at stuff on the surface.
You know, the guy from Arizona, who I presume is at ASU, claiming you can only move through 100 microns of dust with this wavelength?
Yes.
Wrong!
Pale face.
Wrong!
The molar data itself at 10.6 microns is going down 3,000 feet and coming back up through this stuff.
Now, our operative model, this is where things get really interesting, Art, is that it's not just dust.
Wow, this is a real wow.
Everybody out there needs to go to my website and after you peruse the initial data, which to you and me won't mean much, go to photograph or picture number two and just look at it and it's going to jump right out at you.
Now, it jumps out even more if you can't your head a little bit to the left.
Richard, it had no problem.
You know me.
If I can't see something, I'll say it right away.
And this is almost too good, Richard.
Are you sure you haven't been had?
No, because let me tell you how we did this.
And it's the steps, it's the process.
And we've got, what, three minutes till, maybe a minute till the end of this segment, right?
About a minute, yeah.
All right, we will save that for when we get Keith Laney on, who we're going to go to at the top of the hour, who is the guy who actually got this image, works with the Mars Webb Program at NASA Ames, has become a real damn good friend in the last month, because we have literally done this day and night by phone and email.
We have never met.
We have simply shared a love for the truth and what's really out there, and it's due to Mr. Laney and his persistence in learning how to work with this data art, because he prepared the data All I'm doing is interpreting what we're seeing.
It's Keith Laney's data you are looking at right now.
All right.
Hold on, Richard.
Stay right there.
That's exactly who we're going to bring up in the next hour is Keith Laney and he's going to tell us about this photograph.
He works contracts for NASA and will explain exactly who he is.
Oh, this second photograph.
Huh.
This will put a chill down your spine.
It absolutely will.
It's like looking at the LA suburbs at night, minus the lights on in the houses.
That's how serious it is.
I'm Art Bell from the high desert.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
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And nor am I easily impressed with a lot of photographs Richard has brought forth to me.
But I've got to tell you, this photograph number two really is an oh-my-God photograph.
Image number two.
Holy smokes!
It's L.A.
It's any suburban city viewed from a helicopter at night from above.
We'll get some idea of the size, the relative size of these objects.
In a moment, as we continue with Richard C. Hoagland and coming up, the man who supplied these images, who works with NASA, I'm Art Bell.
Well, I'll say it one more time, this second image, image number two of the seven, Is astounding, and I'm wondering if the rest of you are seeing it the way I am.
I'll be damned if this doesn't look like a suburb.
You know, it could be factories, it could be homes, it could be a combination thereof, it could be L.A.
No question.
Richard?
Let me tell you how we produced it, alright?
And again, this was done in a very unusual way for us.
It was done literally 2,000 miles between here and North Carolina.
And the primary hero here tonight is Keith Laney.
By the way, just before we get to Keith, indulge me for one second, Richard.
On the international line from, I don't know, someplace in Great Britain, right?
That's right, yeah.
You had a comment.
What is your first name, sir?
My name is Jeff.
I'm calling from Watford in England.
Okay.
I've made an observation.
I've seen the image number two, and it does seem to show something rectilinear subsurface.
The curious thing to me, though, is it's actually parallel to the edges of the image.
Now, if this is the full image, it would strike me that this isn't the first infrared image they've taken.
I mean, it could be coincidental, but how would it be lined up unless you had a prior image?
Ah.
Richard?
Well, because we have tilted the image.
This is not the raw image.
This has been rotated 7.2 degrees in the computer, and Keith will explain what he did.
Okay.
Because the actual images were released in a tilted format.
Nine bands side-by-side, and if you look at the image number one, the back arch image number one, you see that tilted line at the top?
Ah, yes.
That's the way the image actually was, that line was parallel to the top of the image frame when they published it.
Gotcha.
And we rotated it so that you could look at things up and down.
In fact, the orbit of the spacecraft is three degrees to north-south on Mars.
So the actual alignment of these structures is not to the orbit, but just a little bit off, and appears to be north-south on Mars.
All right, so there's nothing then, Jack, or what this gentleman said?
No, no.
Okay.
Now, let me go in there a minute before we bring Keith on as to how we did this.
You're back to image number one?
Yes.
Okay.
The left-hand strip is what's called a false-color, de-correlated stretch version Of six of the image bands of the eight that they released.
There are actually nine bands on the original data, but two of them are duplicates because of signal-to-noise technical issues.
Yes.
So you have eight bands of infrared data.
Okay.
Eight colors would be another way of looking at it.
All right.
And as Keith will explain, the way you have to work with this multispectral data, because it isn't black and white, it isn't visual imagery, is very different than we usually use with black and white images.
He learned a phenomenal amount and actually got very cozy with a very big company called Kodak and a division of theirs called Research Systems, Inc.
that provided him an enterprise for an indefinite period, what I have been laughingly calling the Lexus of imaging programs.
It's a program called NV3.5, which is about a $7,000 computer program.
And it's this state-of-the-art program which allows you to basically Do all this with point-and-click and tutorials, and I mean it's basically flying a 747 as if you've never flown one before, but you're a grandmaster at it.
And it was this software and their tutorials and Keith's very bright learning curve that allowed him to come up the curve and to produce the data we were talking about tonight.
All right.
Keith is coming to us.
Keith Laney is coming to us from Charlotte, North Carolina.
Is that correct?
Richard?
Yes.
And he is, uh, you want to give, tell me exactly who he, well let's let him tell us.
Why don't we let him, before we get to him though, I wanted to make one more comment about the image.
Yeah.
The image you're so blown away about, the one where you can look like basically L.A.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
I want to say two things about it.
Look at number one, you see the, the decorrelated color version on the left.
Yes.
On the right, you see another color version.
If you look at the very top, you'll see it's really two images.
Alright?
Underlying is the color image on the left, and over top of it he has very carefully superimposed a black and white Odyssey image of Cydonia taken, or rather released, on April 12th, 13th.
I see it.
I can see the overlay, right.
And when you do that, L.A.
pops out.
That's all we did.
Make those buildings appear.
Now, let me go back to the number two image for a second.
All right.
The key question I've had from the beginning, in fact, I was the one that basically said at some point, guys, I don't think we're looking at noise.
I think we're looking at real structures down there.
And they all kicked in the screen and said, oh, come on.
No, it doesn't look like noise.
Richard, can you?
Well, let me make one more point.
OK, but this really is important.
I said it at the beginning of the hour.
I want to have some estimation of the scale Of the objects that we're seeing.
I was reading your mind.
Okay.
If you look in the upper left of the image number two.
Yes.
That is the fort.
That is our familiar fort.
Fort, yeah.
Of Cydonia.
Alright.
The multi-colors, by the way, are important.
The colors on a de-correlated image correspond to composition, primarily.
Okay, fine.
Again, Richard, of these things.
Alright, on the side of the fort.
You see that straight wall?
Yes.
It's about a mile long.
So you're looking at things that are about the size of city blocks.
Big city blocks.
Big city blocks.
Now keep in mind, this is Mars.
The gravity currently is one-third that of Earth.
We have always assumed in our work, we've never really talked about it, that if we were dealing with Martians... Yes.
We were dealing with big Martians.
Because of the lesser gravity.
The lesser gravity and several other factors that will be in the sequel to Monuments.
So, uh, clearly said they would build big.
Big.
And Ron and I actually went through some calculations the other night, you know, comparing things we build that are big, like Mount Rushmore and all that.
Yes.
It's all proportional.
There's nothing here that is untoward in terms of the model that we're looking at some relatives of the human species.
Remember I always said... You know, for the first time, Richard, I'm willing to look at this and I'm willing to say, clearly, if this is real, then this is architecture.
This could not Possibly be artificial.
This is not a bunch of rocks like I'm usually seeing.
What I'm looking at here is architectural.
It's not natural.
It's A gosh darn city!
That's what number two is.
It's a city, and there's no question about it.
Look, let's get Keith Laney on here.
Well, let me make one more point.
But he's waiting.
Okay, go ahead, Richard.
We've all waited a month here.
Let me make this point, please.
If you look at the fort, you'll see that to the south of it there's a bunch of architectural looking things.
Yes.
But they are contiguous with the structure of the fort that's sticking up above the dust.
I'll buy that, yeah.
This was my key indicator Because if this pattern, as you said a moment ago, if some wacky grad student at ASU had basically pulled a huge hoax on us here, and stuck an aerial photograph of LA over a Themis image, it wouldn't know to respect the objects that are above the dust that we've been looking at for the last 20 years.
No, I will agree with you that it's contiguous.
That is a crucial part of the model because the stuff underneath respects the stuff on top.
Yeah, I'm with you.
And that's what real architecture would do.
And with that, here is Keith Laney.
All right, here is Keith Laney.
Keith, welcome to the program.
Hey, how you doing, Art?
Well, I'm actually blown away.
Your reaction when I heard you a few minutes ago, I was like, yes, this is exactly how I felt when I first processed this image, and it popped out on me when I opened it.
Did it hit you the same way?
Oh, Lord, I was scared to death.
I've been looking at anomalies for a long time, kind of hardcore, and it's something to scare me to death.
It's got to be shocking.
Keith, tell us who you are and what your association with NASA is, please.
Oh, well, I'm Keith Laney from Charlotte, North Carolina, down here in Mayberry, good Andy Griffith territory.
But I've been looking at these images for, oh God, several years now.
And based on my processing skills, I sent some pictures to Marsweb.
And they liked the results and asked me if I would do their mock archives, because basically Malin just handed them the raw data.
They didn't really know what to do with it.
So, you know, I did the whole archive for them at Mars Web, if you go there and check it out.
How long have you been doing that work for them?
Oh gosh, probably slightly over a year.
Slightly over a year then, in the employ of NASA.
Now see, now give me here, I volunteered for this.
I didn't.
Nobody pays me anything.
I don't get a paycheck with any kind of NASA symbol on it.
All right, so you are not an official NASA employee?
Oh, no.
But they take my work.
They take your work?
Yes, that's what I mean.
All right.
And I volunteer readily because I love this subject.
All right.
How did you get this image?
How did I get this image?
Well, I'm sticking to it right now.
I was listening to Richard the night that this image came out, and you know, we all went over and looked at it, the Themis site, and I looked at it and I thought, oh my God.
See, I didn't know what it was.
I thought, oh my God, this thing sucks.
You know, it's really terrible.
Okay, well, you know, unbeknownst to us, we had some ASU guys hanging out on our bulletin board.
ASU is Arizona State University, right?
They're the prime contractor for the Themis camera on the Odyssey mission.
Well, you know, they came out.
See, I didn't even download the image that night.
When I first saw it, I looked at it and, you know, I didn't even want to look at it any further.
But the next day, I thought, well, you know, I might be a little harsh.
You know, I might have been a little harsh about that.
And so I went back to the site, looked at it again.
It was still terrible, but I downloaded it and stored it away, forgot about it.
And then I'm getting on the bulletin board the next couple of days, and the reaction to me saying that and, you know, and Richard echoing it on your show, I've obviously brought the hornets out of the woodwork.
They came out on the bulletin board saying that this image shows nothing about Cydonia in particular.
We were looking at this terrible image and I had to react.
What in the world are you talking about?
How do you know this?
We haven't even done anything to the images yet.
Basically, it just challenged me to go back.
It kept goading me until finally I started processing some of these.
Gosh, I've been doing this for a long time, and there's nothing that I can't learn about doing it.
This is a very important part of the story.
In fact, it's the most important part, I think, of this entire mystery.
About a month before this image was released, a gentleman showed up at the Enterprise Electronic Conference called BAMF, B-A-M-F, which is obviously a screen name, a pseudonym, and he began posting.
In fact, he posted some peculiar threads One of which was called, uh, where's the science happen around here?
Very provocative, very in your face.
He turns out to be none other than a gentleman named Noel Gorelick, who is the manager of the famous ASU Mars Computation Center, which literally is working with Dr. Christensen as part of the team with 14 programmers under him.
How do you know it's him?
Dr. Christensen, in an email to us, acknowledged that Noel Gorlick is who this guy is.
He admitted it to me, too.
And he admitted it to everybody.
And the ISPs check, and where he logs on, and all this.
So, no, this is the guy.
He started hanging out at Enterprise a month before this image came to light.
Before it was released.
And he stayed, and stayed, and stayed.
And he sent all kinds of private emails.
He's posted all kinds of material on the website.
He's engaged in long, complicated chats with various people, and he picked out certain people, like Keith, and a gentleman in Germany called Holger Eisenberg, and a couple of others, to begin giving kind of private tutorials in how to work with infrared multispectral data.
So he wanted you to get this?
So, I'm looking at this, you know me, I'm the political cynic of the bunch.
Yes.
I think NASA wouldn't know a straight answer if it bit them.
And I was looking at this complicated setup, and I'm thinking, what is going on here?
So when Keith related to me the next part of the story he's about to tell you, the light bulb kind of went on, and I said, oh, so that's the game.
Go ahead, Keith.
Okay, let's see, where were we at now?
You were being goaded by BAM, a.k.a.
Gorelick.
I was being goaded by Gorelick, and I showed him an image.
I started processing these images.
I went to the Kodak place, and I downloaded their MV software, and I asked them nicely, could I use it, you know, use their evaluation full version.
I told them what I was going to do with it, and they basically just granted me, you know, granted me the use of it.
Right.
So I went into the tutorials, learned how to do them, learned what IR imaging was, and one thing I learned that was important that the visual acuity of this image does not account for its infrared sensitivity.
Okay?
In other words, when you're looking at this black and white image, you're not seeing all the data that's there.
You're seeing it in grayscale images, and you can't see that many grayscales.
That's right.
Okay, so I'm sitting here and I'm processing these images and it's of course, you have to ratio the bands together and then you have to combine them in red, green and blue.
So I'm sitting here and I do my first image and I'm going, wow, these blocks all pop out at me and I'm seeing this city pattern.
And you know the funny thing about the city pattern, where the stuff sticks up, I mean where there's no dust over it.
You can see several of the areas on the picture where there's no dust, there's no blocks.
But where the dust is piled up, you see the blocks.
Where there's no dust, you actually see the structure up above the surface.
That's right.
And so I'm looking at this, and these guys from ASU are on here saying there's nothing peculiar.
And I contacted Noel Gorlick in private chat one night, and I said, hey man, what are these blocks on here?
And he's telling me, oh, so you found the secret, huh?
Huh?
Oh, so you found the secret?
Yeah, you found the secret.
Well, you know, okay, and they were looking for some type of way to take them off and asked me about my mock processing software.
What?
No, no, no, what, what, what, what, what, what, what?
They wanted to take them off?
Yeah, they wanted to take them off.
They told me that there were some... Hold it, hold it, Keith.
This is very important.
What you're saying is a very serious charge, really.
Well, I mean, actually, if they thought they were noise, if they thought they were noise, they would honestly be trying to find something to filter them off.
So you're not suggesting that they were going, oh my god, it's a city, we've got to cover it up, how do we do that?
I don't really think so.
I think maybe that's one reason why they came on the Anomalous Bulletin Board.
Because they saw what it was and went, oh my gosh!
Well then they were asking you to perform... Not in so many words.
They didn't ask me.
They asked me what type of software I use to de-streak my mock images.
Because mock images, when they come raw, are dirty.
You have to clean them up, and I have software that does this provided by my good friend Robert Shepard.
You know what a mock image is, don't you Art?
Mars Global Surveyor images.
It's Malin's camera, the Mars Orbital Camera on Mars Global Surveyor, MOC.
That's the imaging in white, black and white imaging that Keith has been working on for the Mars Web Program at NASA Ames for about a year.
So, Noel Gorlick, the chief programmer of the computers working on the Odyssey imaging, in chat at Enterprise, is kind of sneakily saying, hey buddy, how do you get rid of the noise on those other images, and can we maybe use that process on these?
All right, hold on, both of you.
We'll be right back.
From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
Stay there.
Tryin' to get myself ashore for so long, for so long Listenin' to the strangest stories, wonderin' where it all
went wrong For so long, for so long
But hold on, hold on, hold on to what you got Every time I see your face it reminds me of the places we
used to go But all I've got is a photograph and I feel like you're not
comin' back anymore I thought I'd make it the day you went away
But I can't make it till you come home again to stay you
Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
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This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
Indeed so.
I am Art Bell, and I must say this.
I hope that you all have computers out there.
Because if you do, you've got to make your way.
You know, I'm not that great with the raw strip photography.
However, I can see how the strip photography, like in image one, relates to what we see in image two.
I think.
When you get to image two, and to get to that, you go to my website at artbell.com, click on program tonight's guest info, and you'll see images one through seven.
Now, image number two, I'm looking at a city.
This is not ambiguous.
There's no way in hell if this is a real image.
There's no way in hell this is any natural formation.
And I'm certain that anybody out there would agree with me.
There's just, there's no way.
There's no way this is a natural, this is a city.
In image number two.
If the image is legitimate, if what we're seeing is real, then this is artificial.
And this is proof of artificial structures on Mars.
Perhaps better photographic proof than we have of what is said to lay beneath the city off the coast of Cuba.
Quite some bit better, as a matter of fact.
This is startling.
It jumps out at you.
You don't have to dig in to look for it.
It does, as Richard and Keith have suggested, if you look at the geography from that which is above ground, it is coexistent with and contiguous with the rest of the image, geographically.
You can see, if somebody were to try and fake something like this, I just don't know how they could do it.
If they slipped an image to Keith and Richard, That was fake.
They did a damn good job of it, because it looks truly authentic.
And if it is authentic, then we are looking at a city on Mars.
I'm willing to say that much.
In image number two, I don't think anybody out there could sit and say that this would be any sort of noise.
But they might say that.
We'll ask about that.
Could this be some sort of Pixelated noise that we're looking at.
There's a good question.
We'll ask in a moment.
Let's do exactly that right now.
Let's ask both Richard C. Hoagland and Keith Laney, who's been doing photographic analysis for NASA.
for about a year now.
Why?
The one thing I guess I would ask myself is what is at contention here and that is how are we not to know that this is some not some sort of pixelated noise that we're looking at even as artificial as it would appear to be after all a camera is an artificial mechanism and it will at times produce artificial Artifacts.
Well, for one thing, the structures you're seeing are light years practically above the level of pixels.
I mean, we're talking ten to a hundred times the size of each individual pixel.
Thank you.
For these buildings.
All right, gotcha.
More importantly... Good answer.
The technique that we applied to this came from my astronomical background and Keith's innovative, creative imagination.
Because we're wrestling with this problem.
You know, is this noise?
Is this some kind of electronic interference?
When he talked with BAMF in the email chats, Mr. Gorlick admitted that they have these blocks on their raw data.
Have you confronted Mr. Gorlick with regards?
He is, by the way, right now presently in the Enterprise chat room.
And he is calling Keith a liar.
He's calling him a fraud.
He's calling him a hoaxer.
He's calling him every name in the book, Art.
And the question is, why is an official NASA employee No, no, no, no.
My question was, has he directly admitted to you who he is?
Oh, yeah.
No question.
He is who he claims he is.
As the evening goes on, this gets more and more intriguing because his pen name, his surname, his screen name turns out to be a clever little code.
I'll get to that in a minute.
I want to go back to the images, though, because the data is crucial.
The personalities aside, this data either is real or it's not.
Would you agree?
Yeah.
Okay, so... That's an easy call.
It's either real or it's not.
Alright, so we have to somehow decide based on the source of where Keith Laney got this, which was from the official Themis website.
Right, sure it was.
And it was on the evening of July 25th at 1027 p.m.
Eastern Daylight Time.
And he's got this in his computer, because you know, when you blog on and download things, your computer makes a record of when you do that.
That is correct, yes.
So we have data that will stand up in court as to where this image was procured and when it was procured.
So then the question is, if this is a hoax, if this is some incredible, exquisite hoax, it's not us.
It's folks at ASU.
It's people either under BAMF or BAMF himself.
Who has perpetrated this exquisite hoax.
And what is BAMF saying that Keith is lying about?
That this thing shows cities, structures, etc.
etc.
that he got it from the Themis website.
In other words, he's claiming that Keith is lying about everything he's told you.
In other words, that this is an altered photograph?
Yeah.
Shouldn't we have him on the air?
I was absolutely going to say.
Now what we need for him to do.
I would be happy to do.
What we need him to do is to put up in the chat room a phone number where you can call him.
Alright.
And we have people who are watching who will call me or email me.
Alright Richard if you get the phone number.
He claims he doesn't want to debate.
Well, he can't stand in front of me and say that.
Well, that's why I want to get him on the air, and I think Art's got a good idea here.
Let's give him a chance.
So, Bam, for whoever you are, and what is the name you say is this person?
B-A-M-F.
No, no, no, no, that's the acronym.
Oh, his real name is Noel Gorelick.
Noel, if you're really out there, and that really is you, then Go ahead, give us a phone number and at least make your case and tell us what's wrong with what we're looking at.
Because to me, if it's legitimate... I mean, what is he saying?
Is he saying that Keith made this up?
Is he saying this is a fraudulent picture?
So he's claiming that Keith made all of this up?
Absolutely.
Now, see, this doesn't square, you know, with the other things that have been going on for the last two months.
Alright, if he will pass a phone number on during the break, I will obtain it from you, call it, and get him on the air.
I think that's one way to get to the bottom of this.
We have tried, by the way, we sent emails to Dr. Christensen several times this week, asking questions about this data, and we will get to some of those details in a moment, but Dr. Christensen, when we provided him with side-by-side copies of Keith's processing of the, quote, real image that was slipped to him, And the raw, the data which is sitting on the Themis website tonight?
Yes.
He has not answered us in 48 hours.
There has been a deafening silence.
So in other words, the data that would supposedly correlate and be the exact same data as we have right here, is on the website tonight, is not the same.
It's not the same.
It's not the same.
And that's where you go to picture number three.
So then, okay.
Go to picture number three.
Okay.
Alright, I got it.
And I, too, have it, yes.
Okay, now the image on the right is one of Keith's incredibly de-correlated versions of the image he was slipped, or he was guided to.
Actually, there's a term in the industry for how he got the image.
It's called BAMFing.
When you take someone electronically and key them into a website where they don't know what they're going to get, it's called BAMFing.
B-A-M-F-I-N-G.
Right, okay.
Mr. Gorelick goes on the screen named B.A.M.F.
This is a little peculiar, wouldn't you say, Art?
Yes, I would.
I would say, how can you be really certain you're not dealing with somebody who, in fact, did set you up?
That's what we're here to find out, aren't we?
You're only as good as your data integrity, and what we have done is we have emailed Dr. Christensen, who pays Mr. Gorelick's salary.
He has admitted that Noel Gorelick is the person he claims to be, that he's been in the Enterprise chatroom, and has only raised certain questions about our handling of the data.
So, to me, there's no doubt that BAMF is Gorelick, is the guy who's processing these images, is the guy who guided, who bamfed Keith to getting this image, and for some reason he won't admit it.
Now, why wouldn't he admit it?
This gets really intriguing, folks.
And there's no end to the mysteries here, or the implications of the mysteries.
Back to image number three.
If you look at the image, Art, on the right is the pristine version that Keith got.
Yes, yes.
The image on the left, at least we think it's the image you're going to find, is the image on the NASA Themis website tonight.
If you look at them side by side, you'll see that the image on the right is crystal clear, has stunning multi-spectral colors, has all kinds of subtle shadings, and of course the Block-like features that we think are the city underneath the dust.
Right.
The image on the left is noisy, streaky, faded, full of stuff you can't even analyze.
And if you go to image number four... Yeah, but Richard, what you must be suggesting here, before you go on, is that Keith was sent the real McCoy.
Keith was actually solicited, if I heard him correctly, Look for ways to make it more like the image on the left.
You're telling me he downloaded this, perhaps not on the same website, but redirected to some other website by, you believe, BAMF?
That's a possibility.
Where he was supplied with his real image.
The real image.
And obviously the image on the left is tremendously noisier and there's not nearly so much detail in it.
Now go to image number four.
This is kind of my creme de la creme.
Alright.
Image number four.
I am there.
Okay.
This is the familiar D and M five-sided pyramid.
Right.
The image on the right is Keith's processing of his Secret, slipped out the back door, real image.
Yes.
Look at the stunning detail.
Yes.
Look at the colors.
Look at the internal structure.
Look at the absolutely non-geological character of this five-sided massive pyramid that I've said for the last 20 years seems to be a huge building on planet Mars.
Right.
Look at the same image on the left.
Right.
If you look very carefully, you'll see hints of what's on the right.
Correct.
Yes, I can.
But it's obvious that what's happened to the image on the left is that somebody has dropped 15, you know, carloads of noise on top of it, and done a few other things.
Yeah, they tried to take the blocks off.
That's exactly what they did.
It's a visual, I don't know how they did it, I think they laid a visual overlay image of the area over top of the IR data in the raw state.
But the image looks clearer.
Noise is not hard to add.
Noise is hard to take away.
It's not hard to add.
Exactly.
So what we're really charging is that we're getting fraudulent data from NASA.
From NASA.
Let me stop you.
One of the key things that Keith asked Noel when they were in these conversations is about the other published IR imagery.
We have two other sites, am I right, Keith?
Where we have full-color, multispectral, false-color presentation of the Themis data.
Why didn't they give us a full-color multispectral done like the other IR multiband images that they've released?
There are two other images they've released, Art, of other regions of Mars.
They don't look anything like this.
There are no blockies.
There's no noise.
They're just kind of average multispectral images of another planet.
And Banff, a.k.a.
Noel Gorlick, admitted in his conversations with Laney that there was these peculiar blocks that they couldn't figure out how to get rid of on this image.
Laney, uh, these conversations took place, uh, Where, Keith?
On the private chat rooms.
Private chat rooms?
You have no... I mean, it's the Internet.
On the Internet, you could be a dog on the Internet.
You could be anybody on the Internet.
I mean, everybody past about fifth grade right now knows that.
You know, you can spoof anything up there.
So how can you really know who you were talking to?
Well, I mean, he's on there.
It's obvious he knows what he's talking about.
He's revealing inner details of what they're doing there and how they did this.
But a good hoaxer would... Yeah, but you're forgetting Dr. Christensen, who emailed us back on several technical points of this data over the last month, has confirmed Noel Gorlick is his man.
He has been at Enterprise.
He has been talking to us about this data.
I have no doubt it was him.
I mean, whether you believe it or not, I have no doubt it was him and his buddy Dan Smythe, whoever that is.
Now, there is some question about who the Smythe character is.
He also showed up very knowledgeable in infrared multispectral processing, but he claims not to be the Dan Smythe who was a leader in the field at MIT.
It gets deeper and deeper, doesn't it, my friend?
Well, I just know this, Richard.
I know that there are a lot of people out there who would like to set your... Oh, of course!
Yeah.
But won't you think that, you know, I mean, if this is a hoax, it is the most extraordinary, elaborate, technically sophisticated.
Tell them about the headers, Keith, on the images.
Well, the headers on the images are different.
I myself have three different versions of this image.
I've got the official one from the Themis website that's up now.
I have the official one from the Themis website that I downloaded on the 25th.
Hey Richard, tell them about what the 25th is.
When this whole thing came down, when we finally realized after the show I did with George that we were going to pressure them to release an IR image of Cydonia finally, Dr. Saunders, who was the official project scientist, admitted in an email spread around the world on the internet that the image was going to be released within a few days.
This was on a Sunday.
Right.
My guys and I got together and I looked at the calendar and I said, oh my God, I'll bet they're going to release it on the 25th of July.
Why the 25th, Art?
I don't know.
That turned out to be the anniversary Of 35A72, the first Cydonia image of the face on Mars taken by Vikings 31 years ago.
Okay?
So I sent some emails to some people who were on the Enterprise Conference, and I said, I'm betting on the 25th.
I said to Mike Berra, I'm betting on the 25th.
So on the 24th, when they put the image out, needless to say, I was a tad disappointed.
Because the ritual had been broken.
Except, Keith was maneuvered.
Manipulated, goaded, whatever you want to call it, into downloading his image on the night of the 25th from that website, and it was the stunning real image, and it looks as if the ritual was confirmed.
Now, let me get to the real part of the story.
Yes?
As Keith is preparing these images for the processing, what you got to do is you have to tilt them vertical, slice them out of their background on the Themis website, And put them basically by themselves.
You can layer them one over the other over the other.
Yes.
And do the mathematics in the MD program.
Right.
He had to align them so that they measure so many pixels wide and so many pixels long.
Sure.
Keith, tell Art and the nation how many pixels wide and long these images prepared over four days by Mr. Gorlick are.
Okay, when you average the distance of the little jagged edges on the picture and rotate it vertical, It comes out to be 333 by 1947 pixels.
How about that?
And you have to rotate the image by the magic number of 7, 727, a little over that.
Okay, you've got to rotate the image 7 degrees to get it a little over 7.
So there's somebody who follows Richard closely and has a sense of humor?
Again, you can read this two ways except You can't ignore the mola.
Either that, Richard.
Either that.
Or somebody who was going to set you up really knew what the hell would push your buttons.
And of course, that date, those angles all push Richard C. Hogan's button real hard.
Except, Art, there's one small problem.
He didn't send the image to me.
He didn't manipulate me.
He sent it to Keith Laney.
I understand.
The one anomalist who's working with NASA, NASA Ames, is a thousand miles away.
Here's the other problem I have, Richard, and that is when you lay these images side by side, the ones Keith has supplied, the high detail, and the ones that are on the site, you can, in fact, see hints that they're exactly the same thing in different
detail.
Yeah, that much I can go along with.
Well, the bad thing about that is, and this has fooled a lot of people,
is that they look at the image as presently displayed, and they look at my original raw image,
and they go, well, Keith, your image looks like crap.
And I'm like, well, that's what I thought.
You know, I mean, that's what I thought.
Until I really processed the image.
I thought it was a hunk load of crap, and it did not look like the present image.
This is a black and white, remember?
You cannot look at multispectrals in black and white.
That's why there's a $7,000 commercial program to look at these images the right way.
Alright, if this BAMF, whoever he is, wants to supply a phone number, now would be the time to do it.
And if you don't, then we'll presume you don't want to defend yourself uh... nor do you wish to be true to get out
beyond some of the limits of somebody's chat room somewhere
the the
the inside that we need so much.
you.
The sight of a touch, or the scent of a sound, or the strength of an oak when it's deep in the ground.
The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing?
To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing?
To have all these things in our memory's horn?
And they use them to count us?
Use them to cause...
TOO MUCH!
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This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
Oh, we're on a ride, all right.
The question is, what kind of ride are we on?
Now, with regard to what Richard has said of these images, I am of the opinion That when you look at them, if these are genuine, underline, big underline, under if, because we're going to get to that part in a moment, if they're genuine, then the image number two clearly is a city.
A city on Mars.
Now, that's what's at stake here.
However, there's a part of this that I'm having real difficulty digesting, and that is the sort of, the way that it has come to Keith and to Richard.
The manner in which it's come, I mean, it's very, very suspect from my point of view.
Secret acronyms, innuendo, secret messages by spoofed people on the internet.
I really have a difficult time with that, and when you're considering balancing in your, you know, the way I do with everything, and I hope you do too, you sit out there and balance what we've got here.
On the one hand, do we have A real city on Mars?
That's not trivial news, is it?
And it does look like a city, if it's genuine.
But is it genuine?
Well, we're dealing with people sending messages in chat rooms and crap like that.
That really begins to weigh heavily, on the other hand, on the BS scale.
You know, it starts to weigh pretty heavily in my mind.
I've had plenty of experience with the Internet and As wonderful an instrument as the Internet is, and it is a wonderful instrument, it's absolutely all rules not applying to anything.
I mean, our society needs to get around to that.
There needs to be some way that you can be identified on the Internet.
And there are certain ways, but anything, nearly anything, a good hacker will tell you can be spoofed.
Period.
So either this is the real McCoy, and there's a big damn city under Mars, or it's not the real McCoy.
And as we trace how this has all come to pass, I worry very heavily about the way the information has been passed, handled, and the discussion has taken place in Internet chat rooms.
Not good.
We'll be right back.
Alright, once again, Richard C. Hoagland.
And, of course, Keith Laney in North Carolina.
So, Richard, I said what I wanted to say there, I mean... No, no, no, you're absolutely right.
This is the Hobson's Choice.
It's either real or it's fake.
Yeah, but the way, the negative side of this, Richard, the chat rooms and all that crap... But, Art, that's what makes this so extraordinarily interesting.
Look, let's stand back and look at this, folks, alright?
Here you have me, who's basically NASA public enemy number one.
Okay?
Yeah, probably true.
I have not called NASA in kind words the guys who are doing us in.
Not the honest folks over there, but the other ones in a very long time, have I?
Right.
I basically claim that we are being lied to, we are being deceived, we are being led down the garden path, they are keeping all kinds of important data secret from the people who paid for it, You know, the old acronym that back in my days, the Cronkite, we used to call NASA, never a straight answer, has been turned, you know, up in spades.
And this is only the latest example of many, many others.
What is extraordinary, what I find sociologically and politically so interesting tonight, is that instead of just leaving us alone, This little, small bunch of crazies who think there's something out there when the agency says there's nothing.
Well, maybe somebody hates you enough to feed this to you, to go to enough trouble to take this out.
But don't you understand that this will backfire because, according to the codes and headers on the image, government property was used to prepare this hoax, if it is a hoax.
Government time was used.
Richard, stop.
You can prove that.
Huh?
Yes, absolutely.
And, you know, there are such things as what are called Unix codes on images made by certain, you know, machines with certain software.
Yes.
This was created.
The image that Keith got is a copy of an image created from the spacecraft data files, which are called PNM files, and it was made according to our Unix expert.
We have one of those.
His name is Holger Eisenberg in Dortmund, Germany.
He actually is getting a degree in computer science and engineering.
And he works as a Unix administrator in Dortmund at the University.
So here's an expert in Unix systems.
He's the one who told us, when we sent him the image, that this image is made on an old government system.
Let me concede, it came from Nassau.
It came from the government.
Let me just concede that.
And let me now go on to say, Richard, imagine this.
That somebody within NASA, perhaps an individual somewhere, hates you enough to set your ass on fire.
Then why would they give me the image?
Because you are the hated Hoagland.
No, no, no.
It doesn't hold water.
Well, I'm not sure it doesn't hold water.
In other words, the question is, could somebody within NASA Hate your guts enough to want to set you up.
That's imaginable, Richard.
Of course it's imaginable, but then why not give me the image?
Why not get it to me?
Because that would be too direct and too suspect.
Well, now it's getting more, this is an Occam's Razor art, you know.
You're sounding a little conspiratorial here.
Well, I'm having to imagine, as one possibility, the whole damn thing's a set-up.
I have been pursuing, we have all been pursuing two tracks, and Keith, jump in here any time, alright?
Two tracks from the beginning.
It's either a set-up or it's real.
Alright, will this guy in the chatroom give his phone number?
He will not give his number.
Now, it's a kind of a cornerstone of the Constitution, that when you are accused of a crime, you get a chance to face your accuser.
The Keith accuser tonight is using the Enterprise Conference to basically claim that Keith is a hoaxer, a liar, has created a fraud, has gone on your show and told 20 million people complete lies and nonsense and made up fairy tales, but he will not come on your show, Art, on your air and say this to Keith's face.
Now, there was a campaign, the Dukakis campaign, where the candidates, you know, exchanged insults and accusations.
When those accusations were not answered, people assumed that the accuser was right and the accusee was wrong.
The fact that Mr. Gorelick does not have the moral fortitude... But how do you know it's him, Richard?
Because I have an email right here.
He signed on from ASU.
I have an email right here from the... Somebody once sent out a false article about me with regard to attacking the Filipino people.
It was sent from, they found out, UCSD.
UCSD campus down in San Diego.
And so the fact that it comes from some educational institution... Did this persist for months?
Oh God, Richard, this thing has been going around for years now.
What do you mean months?
When I say it went around for years, it was a one-time shot.
Oh, do you mean did the original... No, it was sent once and then... Yeah, exactly.
Well, this is very different because every time this person logs on from ASU, our people contract the ISP codes.
We know exactly almost which phone he's logging on from there at the University.
Let me read you the email from Dr. Christensen that was sent to us a couple of days ago.
Yes.
When we were going to come on And basically lay this case out before the country then.
He says, I am confused by your statements regarding the Themis IRA data and your decision not to release your findings.
This was a week and a half ago.
The data were calibrated by our standard processes in the same way that it was done for the Themis science team.
We were asking questions about what's on the website.
I am not sure why you are suggesting that NOLO or anyone else on the Themis team has done anything to alter the data.
Parenthetical statement from me.
BAMF had claimed it was his right, since he maintains the website, to alter the data, to screw up the data, to add noise to the data, to scribble on it with crayons if he wanted to.
And that's why you were concerned.
Christensen goes on.
He, Noel, a.k.a.
BAMF, was simply questioning how you have treated the data and how you are validating your methods and processes.
So Christensen is validating that Noel Gorelick is in fact present at Enterprise Mission, is talking to our people, instructing them in what he's been instructing them in, in terms of multispectral... How do you know that email is legit?
Oh, from Christensen?
Yeah.
Because we sent an email to Christensen and got a response from Christensen.
We had several responses.
At the same address?
At the same address.
And we have some of the emails actually posted fully in our article tonight that's up on the website.
Some of the more recent ones questioning why we have two sets of data, one that was slipped out the back door, although it really wasn't.
You actually posted the entire message?
We posted the entire email conversation.
Including the headers?
Absolutely.
Okay.
So no, it's Dr. Chris.
I mean, he has been talking to us through email since I think our first article where he sent us an unsolicited email was back in March after the first press conference.
And so when we had technical questions, for instance, there are two 662 IR bands.
We wondered if there was a misnumbering of the bands on the posted data.
So basically they're charging that Keith Laney, you Keith, made all this up.
Not they!
Noel Gorelick tonight is charging.
And will not come on air and charge this.
And somebody calling himself that, or somebody in that chat room here, so that's just a big problem, Richard.
It's a big problem.
There's just no way you know for sure who's on the other side of that keyboard.
That's not true.
All that politics aside, I got this image from the Themis website on July the 25th at 1027 AM.
Or you got redirected to another website.
You have to select the image.
So that would have had to have been an elaborate thing to do.
Okay, because you have to go to the Themis website and select the image you want to view.
And that's the... I selected the so-called based on models... See, there are four choices.
When you go to the Themis site, you have a PNG, you have a GIF, you have a JPEG, or a TIFF you can download.
Four little windows.
Right, right.
Obviously, if you want the best quality, you go for the TIFF, because it's uncompressed data.
Right.
But there was no way to know when Keith would do that, unless someone was following his IP address.
He has a broadband connection, unlike those of us in the desert, and every time he logs on or goes anywhere, it's the same IP address.
So an expert, like Mr. Gorelick, in computer processing, who has a nickname, BAMF, which means redirecting people to other websites without their knowledge, could easily have tracked Keith's movements, and when he Got to the FEMA site.
He zaps him to the image he wanted him to download that night.
The real image.
This is an awful lot of intrigue, Richard.
I mean, beyond even... No more intrigue than you've been proposing that they set this whole thing up.
The point is... No, I said they were setting you up.
Well... And rather... And also Keith.
Yeah?
Mike Barra.
It's Enterprise.
It's all the people at the Enterprise conference.
Well, that would be the entire group they'd want to get.
It's all our supporters.
Perhaps Keith is accepted.
Everybody else they'd love to get.
But, but, if you look at the data, alright?
Forget all the, you know, the politics around it.
Just look at the data.
Look at image number four.
The DNA comparison.
Yeah?
There is no way you can go from the left-hand crappy image to the right-hand exquisite image.
You can go from the right-hand image to the left-hand image by simply adding lots and lots of noise and doing a few other things.
But you can't go the other way.
Entropy does not reverse.
Well, I agree with that.
If you go to image number 5, let's stay with images for a moment here.
Call up image number 5.
Okay.
This is a black and white comparison on the left of the DNM, wide angle.
Right.
With the Big Crater north of it.
Right.
And on the left we have wide angle of the DNM and Big Crater in the infrared.
I see it.
And all these speckle keepers made up.
Got it.
And in the upper part of the image we have close-ups.
Look at the green arrows and look at the red arrows.
On the surface of this black and white Odyssey image that Keith processed, you see an exquisite rectilinear block.
Yeah, you do.
On the right hand, matching close-up of the infrared, the block is there, glowing with heat from underneath the surface.
Yes.
And if you look at the green arrow, there's a deep depression, which is not getting any sunlight, so it's cool.
And remember, on these images, cool is dark.
Absolutely.
is or warm is bright. Absolutely. So there is correspondence of the surface imagery
with the underlying thermal infrared heat radiation. Well this would be the
equivalent of a forgery of an incredible classic done by somebody who could
duplicate that classic work and not be detected perhaps.
And remember the header code.
By even an expert.
It was done by government machines.
So if this is a hoax, this is a legal case we have against government employees working for NASA.
Yeah, if you could ever figure out who they are.
Well, look at Enron, look at WorldCom.
You know, there are ways in the legal system, Peter and I have been discussing for months now, how to bring a case on behalf of the American people so this kind of chicanery and nonsense stops.
You can't do this with impunity.
This is an arrogance, if it's a hoax, of unimaginable proportions, trashing, in principle, the quest to find out the truth about our neighborhood, our heritage, and our future.
And it must end.
Now, Keith, you and Richard, you've both been getting cyber attacks.
Oh, yes.
Oh, this is very interesting.
Very heavy cyber attacks, right?
My firewall is logging some big dogs, too.
Yeah.
Yeah, this is a bit disturbing because, you know, I mean, like last week when Richard was on the last time, I couldn't even get on the Internet.
Not at all.
And I mean, I've got a broadband connection, and it works quickly.
Yeah, well that can be done relatively easily.
Oh yeah, that's a DOS attack.
Right, DOS.
Denial of service.
And the board suffered it, and as I'm going to understand, the NP website research systems, they had to come offline because of it too.
Now, you know, this is a, you know, why would they do this?
No, no, no, wait a minute.
Let's ask a question here.
Keith, Richard, who would be more likely to do a big DOS attack?
The government, or the persons we imagine might have made this up within the government, or some stupid bunch of probably pretty smart hackers who set your butt up.
Now they do DOS attacks, but would the government employee do DOS attacks?
Not likely, because they're going to get nailed on the You are missing one crucial component.
Like what?
We have sources in Washington.
We've had them for years.
We've certainly been quoting them on your show for the last couple of years.
Remember, about a year ago in May of 2001, I came on and I said there was going to be a really important release Yes.
Yes.
data on the face on Mars the next day, and it happened, that came from our source.
I've called him our Bush source, actually I've changed his name to Deep Space.
Apropos of Watergate, he has called me every single day, representing the people that he is involved with,
discussing various aspects of this data.
Telling you what?
The data release.
Well, I'm going to get to that, alright?
Alright, we don't have a lot of time.
So basically verify it?
Well, he basically said this is real data.
You've been fed the real thing?
We've been fed the real thing.
And what's most important for Americans to believe tonight, we have to get the rest of it.
He is adamant, and the people behind him are, that we cannot wait one more day Yeah.
Long sky high.
Maybe.
It's hard to know.
rest of the daytime i are and most crucially tonight the nighttime i are
and in the next half hour i will explain why that will blow this case
sky hi
sky maybe
it's hard to know is this a real mccoy or is it a big fraud
me uh...
uh...
the uh...
uh...
the uh...
Thank you.
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This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
Boy, I don't know.
On the one hand, we've got pictures of a city on Mars.
I mean, if you believe they're real, then, you know, you look at it.
I mean, it's a city.
It's L.A.
It's New York.
Well, maybe not New York.
It'd be bigger.
But, you know, it's a U.S.
city.
That's image number two.
It's one that startles me that Actually is will send chills down your spine, but then on the other hand we have we have as Much it we have more intrigue in our other hand than there is red dust red poof dirt on Mars.
I mean we've got chat rooms and redirect websites where secret pictures were passed and And then later denied, and we have other people in chat rooms calling people liars and the rest of it, and a lot of this done through the Internet.
And I'm very, very, very leery of the Internet.
Very leery.
I love the Internet.
I have a particularly high-speed connection.
Got about P3 here, actually.
So I dearly love it.
We use the hell out of it.
It's a useful tool, but it's also Totally subject.
You know, I saw something earlier on CNN that about 40-some percent of what's sent to anybody, the average person, in email on the internet today is about 40% is spam.
40% is spam.
And I can tell you personally, because I recognize the viruses so easily, that of the email I get every day, and that would be You know, thousands of emails.
Two or three thousand, typically.
Very typically.
Ten percent of them are viruses.
Ten, fully ten percent of emails I'm getting are viruses.
Now, I don't use a virus protection program.
I occasionally scan with one.
I don't need it.
They're so recognizable.
My Beautiful White Wife dot B-A-T.
Japanese Girl versus Playboy.
It goes on and on with E-X-E's, B-A-T-P-I-F's, every kind of imaginable access they can try to get to your machine to give you a virus.
There's a million of them out there and they're very easy to spot.
The internet is just rife.
With people who are masquerading, people who are spoofing, people who are using computers to send out spam email.
It's just a wreck, a disaster up there.
And so you've got to measure that in your other hand as you listen to the history of this information.
So far, you've got to put that into the equation.
It's a pretty heavy weight, I would say.
All right, back to it we go.
I want to bring the conversation back to something that approaches from science here.
Okay.
Because I think we're focusing too narrowly on the... I mean, we all know that the Internet is a Wild West town.
Yep, yep.
That notwithstanding, the internal consistency of this data and its match with a completely separate mission, mounted from halfway around the planet from the Soviet Union, Over 10 years ago, 12 years ago, and what they found with a similar instrument has got to be understood.
When you look at the BBC coverage of the Phobos 2 mission to Mars, that was laid out in London at the Science Museum with a whole bunch of very prestigious Russian scientists that were allowed to come out to the West and lay out the data, before it all disappeared.
And I've got the videotape from that program.
You see in their imagery essentially identical buried subterranean structures to what we're seeing on this data tonight.
Now their camera was not as sophisticated because it was ten years ago or more.
Right.
It was not in the multi-spectral bands that we now appreciate, that we can look at it, courtesy of Keith Laney and his process.
But you can see the relationship.
It's the same.
And of course, it fits the model.
Remember, our tidal model of Mars says that you had a thriving civilization, and something went radically wrong.
And you had a tidal release.
The planet blows up, oceans slosh, and you basically bury everything in miles of gunk.
And in some places, it will be more preserved than others.
And in some places, the water, instead of cascading down in a huge tidal wave, a la the scene in Deep Impact, Remember where the tidal wave rushes over New York?
Yeah.
That would have smashed the things we're seeing down there flat.
This water rose.
And one of the things that I didn't get to earlier in the evening was our model is a little more complicated than just a layer of dust filling these deep canyons with structures.
All right?
It's a two-component model.
What we think we're looking at is the city encased in ice with a layer of dust on top.
And the infrared is going through the dust, which is probably relatively thin, through a much thicker layer of ice that basically is the waters of the Martian oceans that rose and flooded this shoreline.
Because this used to be an ancient shoreline.
I might understand how the IR would get through the dust.
How does it get through ice?
Because ice is transparent in certain bands in the infrared.
Particularly in the thermal infrared.
In the near infrared, it's opaque.
But when you get far out in the farther infrared, it opens up again because it's like the atmosphere.
I just needed to understand that.
So, you know, ice visually is transparent, isn't it?
You can look through it.
You're asking me?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, unless a bunch of people skate on it, then it's hard to see.
Okay, but I mean, if it's frozen... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's clear.
It's clear.
So there are conditions under which you can get enormous transparency.
In fact, the U.S.
Navy has a great deal of data from the Arctic.
You know, from submarines underneath the polarized caps.
Sure.
And in fact, we tried to get some of that data from our source, and there was a bit of a tizzy, because when we asked for it, some people thought we'd actually been given classified data.
And we had a bit of a dust-up earlier last week until it was clarified that no one had given us anything that we weren't supposed to have.
So we're looking at every aspect of this, and I want to bring you now back to more data.
Look at image number, I think it's six.
All right?
Hold on.
Image number six.
It's a side-by-side comparison.
Okay, this is a final one, actually.
Okay, I'm at six.
Okay.
It's a side-by-side comparison.
Okay.
It's got the graphs on it?
Yep.
On the left is the data Keith retrieved from the FEMA site.
On the right is the current version, we think, of the FEMA's data on the site.
Look at the graph at the top.
You see the crosshairs over the image?
Yes.
Okay.
What ENVY does is allows you to lay two lines like this, and it plots the intensity in three colors of the vertical line and the horizontal line.
Right.
I believe the horizontal line is up on top.
The vertical line is underneath the pictures.
Right.
Look at the top line just because it's simpler, alright?
That's the horizontal line, which goes across the fort, by the way, over on the left.
Yes.
And all the way to the right.
Yeah, I see that.
If you look at the graph, notice that as the cursor crosses the fort, that central light well, it goes right to the bottom.
Yeah.
Zero.
Yeah, it does.
Zero is the noise.
Then it comes back up.
Now, the three colors are exquisitely separated.
That is interesting.
You don't get better data than this.
Now move to the right.
Yeah.
Look at the same image crossing the same region of the image with the version that's on the Themis website.
Right.
It's crap.
It's noisy as hell.
Yeah, it is.
It's absolutely full of noise.
Now, our model is that someone took the real data, which has the blocks, has the city, has everything we talked about tonight, added the noise, Vacuumed off the rectilinear geometries after probing some people as to whether they found them.
Yeah, I clearly see what the allegation here is, Richard.
They just noisied the whole thing up, is what you're saying.
And they're claiming it's real, and we now have three different versions that have changed over the space of the last month.
This requires a congressional or a legal investigation.
This is a non-trivial claim we're making tonight.
Somebody is messing with us big time.
So then, who do you go to?
Well, on our website at EnterpriseMission.com, if you can get in because there's a lot of people looking tonight.
I am sure.
At the top we have, in fact I think I've got it here, we have a section titled, What You Can Do To Help.
Which basically is a listing of all the email addresses of media, Congress, the White House, talk shows, political shows.
Everybody in this country who's supposed to be out there to help you get to the truth is on that website, created for us by people like Bob Williams and several others.
If you want to know the truth about this, you have got to make some noise.
We sent out a press release today.
You've got a copy of it, Art?
You know, I'll tell you what you ought to do, Richard.
You ought to hire a private investigator, somebody familiar with high technology.
What you're faced with is only going to be answered by getting to the real truth, and perhaps, you know, a real cyber-wise investigation agency could get to the truth here.
Otherwise, I don't see how you're going to get there, Richard.
How?
Well, the last time, and again, this comes from our sources in Washington who are very interested in how this is going to play out, alright?
This is a people's war.
This is a democratic last stand for do the American people have a right to see what they have really paid for?
I have a personal feeling, Art, that Banff is a hero.
I really think I want to award him the Enterprise White Hat of the Week.
Because despite all his protestations, the psyche of his refusal to come on your show... Yeah, I doubt he's accepting right now.
Well, but think of it this way.
Suppose you have been in the system.
Suppose you have a family.
Suppose you have watched the chicanery, the double dealing, the duplicity, and are just fed up.
And you're one guy in a key position to slip something exquisite out the back door to the folks that you have done your homework on and you think may have an even shot of getting at the truth.
If you're going to do that, Richard, why do it in chat rooms and by redirecting websites and all that?
How would you get it into our hands?
Why hand it to you?
No, because someone would find out.
This is the way of basically playing the game.
You know, there are a lot of people that I have encountered... Plausible deniability, Richard?
Exactly.
Exactly.
In other words, you basically do things with the left hand that the right hand doesn't know you're doing.
Dr. Christensen thinks you're over basically just making trouble at Enterprise, just stirring things up, kicking hogans, you know what?
Yep.
Whereas, in fact, under the cover of that, you have slipped us real data, and you are praying that we will know politically and technically what to do with it, and furthermore, you've aced your bet.
You have gone on in private emails to about six separate imaging people and given them private tutorials in how to work with this data.
Nothing else makes sense.
Enterprise is not that damn important unless there is an exquisite hidden agenda here to get us something we can finally work with.
Now I admit that we need further and deeper investigation.
One of the key problems with your recommendation, Art, is We are broke.
We cannot afford to hire a private investigator of the high-tech caliber of the people that you're talking about.
We can barely afford computer programs and to keep the lights on.
You know, I have funded Enterprise out of my own pocket for years, putting all the monies from the Monuments of Mars back in, putting any monies I got from television presentations back in, any lecture fees I put back into Enterprise.
Yeah, I know you've done that.
This is basically, you know, research... I don't doubt that you Uh, wholeheartedly believe in your own work, Richard, not for one second.
Well, not only do I believe in it, but there are a lot of other people who believe in it.
There's a large segment of your audience that believes in it.
Yeah, I don't doubt that.
You know, your sincerity is real.
Your enthusiasm, perhaps, is, um, as some gentleman recently said, perhaps over-exuberant at times.
When we're referring to our economy, you tend to be over-exuberant.
But I'm weighing this, Richard, and I... Well, you were proposing a very reasonable idea here.
Well, that someone wants your butt and that they're setting you up.
Sure it is.
Well, it's very simple.
If people want to help us get to the bottom, give us some money so we can, in fact, afford to hire the best high-tech investigators on the Internet to get to the bottom of this.
And all you do is send us a check to Enterprise Mission At P.O.
Box 3550 Edgewood, New Mexico 87015.
And we can use the help.
We are at the end of what we can do with the resources we have.
We had major security problems at Enterprise last week.
We had huge amounts of attacks.
We need something like $6,000 worth of equipment just to maintain Enterprise in a secure way so we can present the data which we give to the country for free.
We don't charge for anything, Art.
After they would give this to you, Richard, the eternal they, why would they then bother to attack you?
Cyber attacks of various sorts.
Why bother?
Oh, no, no, no.
It's not the same people.
In other words, if you have a leak.
I mean, we've seen this in Washington for years.
What happens in Washington when someone slips a reporter a juicy story?
The guys that don't want the story to be published or to be followed try to do everything to destroy the message, the messenger, To eliminate the paper trail, to make it worthless, to cover it up?
This, to me, looks like a rearguard desperate action on the part of those that don't want you folks out there to know the truth tonight, to keep you from finding it out.
I mean, all kinds of accusations have been made against me personally over the years.
I told Keith as we went into this in the last couple of weeks, I said, you know, when this gets serious, when we get to where we can actually publish, I said, you're going to join a very exclusive fraternity.
You know, people like me who get called every name in the book simply because we want to know the truth.
And if people out there really want to help, tonight is the time to step up to the plate.
We could really use it.
There's a whole battery of things we could do.
We have a legal case we want to mount, you know, under the federal codes and federal district court in Washington, D.C.
that could put these people under subpoena.
Can get witnessed and signed testimony through disclosure and what the other term I'm looking for.
The process before any lawsuit.
Alright?
Discovery.
Discovery.
But all of this takes funds.
Well, what about Peter Gersten?
Peter Gersten requires a group of people to help him with the research.
Peter Gersten... Have you run all this by?
Oh, absolutely.
No question.
Peter says we've got a case.
And maybe this is why this was done this way, because when you start switching data on official government websites, now you see it, now you don't.
Now it's real, now it's not.
This is the kind of chicanery that demands to be in a court of law, where you have formal proceedings for ascertaining the truth, where if people over there tonight are shredding files and changing computer disks so they can hide their paper trail, Somebody is going to blow the whistle.
Somebody is going to tell the truth, because when you bring the heat of a potential federal crime, people suddenly get very serious.
Oh, yes.
And the stakes are non-trivial.
Look at that image number two, Art.
Look at that picture.
All we did, and this comes from my astronomical background, all we did was to take the infrared that Keith had meticulously processed, lay it over the visible light image, And turn up the saturation.
And there is a long-standing precedent in the astronomical world for doing this.
It's called luminance layering.
When you take a picture with a color film, color film is typically very noisy, right?
Sure.
Lots of grain.
Sure.
So what astronomers have done over the years is they would take a very fine-grained, long exposure on like Tri-X, which is a very fine-grained film, black and white.
That would be your black and white luminance layer.
They would then take three color pictures, red, green, and blue, with color film, or with black-and-white film with color filters.
They then, in the darkroom, would physically composite them one over the other over the other.
And what happens is that the high-res black-and-white image translates, modulates, the color layers into a color composite that has the colors of the color version and the resolution of the black-and-white.
So that's what we did.
And because the visible Odyssey image is 18 meters per pixel, and the infrared is 100 meters per pixel, we're basically synthesizing an 18 meter color infrared image composite.
And that's when the buildings in L.A.
and the structures that respect the things we see above the dust, like the fort, literally popped out.
And Keith told you, and he'll tell you again, He got shivers looking at this because it has the resonance of being real.
I got shivers when I looked at it, Richard.
It looks like a damn city.
It is a damn city.
I will be, I'd be willing to bet almost anything that this is real data and all of this noise, all of this spaghetti, all of this stuff on the wall is a desperate last minute effort, Art, to keep you and the people who are listening to us right now From really understanding that this, finally, after 20 years, is the truth.
And what we need to do is we need to do two things.
Richard, if BAMF gave you this data, then what's BAMF doing in there calling Keith a liar?
Because it's more spaghetti on the wall.
Maybe his boss found out and he has to do that to save his job.
He put a picture on the website, through some friends of ours in Australia, of him holding his one-year-old baby.
It's an adorable picture.
Vamp is a father.
Now, can you imagine if he was basically told, look, you shut this down, you turn this off, you solve the problem you created, or else?
And the or else could go from simply losing his parking space, to losing his job, to losing something perhaps the most precious of anything in his life.
Well, Keith, what kind of What vibrations have you been getting from your contacts at NASA since all of this?
They don't, they rarely say much to me.
I mean, when there's an image release, mock image release, I have them done for them already sending them to them.
They told me they're looking forward to seeing my infrared results.
Last time I contacted them.
And that was your last contact with them?
That was my last contact.
Now you know whether they take all my stuff off their site or whatever, that's another story.
Alright, hold tight, hold tight everybody.
Top of the hour.
We'll be right back.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
I'm Art Bell.
Screaming through the night time, what do you think?
Nothing but a heartache never a day Nothing but a heartache and a tear
That's all the way It's hard to see every day
I'm such a fool He's like me, oh why
Can't I get him?
Nothing but a heartache never a day Nothing but a heartache and a tear
That's all the way It's hard to see every day
I'm such a fool He's like me, oh why
Can't I get him?
Nothing but a heartache never a day Nothing but a heartache and a tear
That's all the way It's hard to see every day
I'm such a fool He talked and talked and I heard him say
That she had the longest, quackest hair The prettiest green eyes anywhere
And the reasoning of his way to swing Though I smiled at tears inside, the world was burning
I wished him luck again but he said, I'm fine He was going, but still his words kept me tamed
What else was there for me to do but cry?
Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye From West of the Rockies at 1-800-632-4232
First time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
East of the Rockies 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
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dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
Good morning, everybody.
Richard C. Hoagland is here with something really serious, and with him, Keith Laney from Charlotte, North Carolina, WBT country.
And, you know, clearly, on the one hand, what we do have, if you care to check out image number two, is a city.
Mars.
We have a city on Mars.
Now, the other side of the coin is, there's an awful hell of a lot of intrigue here on the Internet.
People in chat rooms and shadowy figures and innuendo and all the rest of it regarding the way the material arrived and just everything.
Extremely complicated, and somebody, Justin in Arizona, says, hey, why are you so skeptical about tonight's topic when I've heard many of your guests with more unbelievable stories?
Number one, Justin, you should not assume, because I listen to somebody without comment, or even encourage them to go ahead and make their comment, that that equals I buy it.
I'm a fairly skeptical person in most regards.
There are shows we do, and shows we do.
We do a lot of different kind of shows here on Coast.
A lot of them.
And so I treat them differently.
But when you get something like this, with a very serious charge, and it's a charge of manipulation of images by our own government, our own government lying to us.
With specific individuals involved, or alleged to be involved.
Over the internet, and so I have a duty to be skeptical about this and to be very serious about this because no matter which way you look at this, whether you view it as real and hidden or a hoax, a very complex, well-executed hoax, and it could be that.
Either way, it's a big story.
I've got to say that I'm riding the line, and I couldn't tell you which I think it is.
I can tell you I think I'm very suspicious of the Internet, and I've got good reason to be.
I've been burned a bunch of times, and I'm sure a lot of you out there have too.
There's reason for doubt, and that's why I'm being as I am being tonight.
Richard's been a friend of mine for more years, and I really care to count.
Thank you very much.
And I know certain things about him.
I know that he is legit.
He's really devoted to his work as much as it sounds he is.
I mean, he's a real McCoy in that regard.
But could he be had?
Could somebody there in the government want to come after him and put his butt on the line and embarrass him?
You bet.
Sure that could happen.
Would it be a whole government doing it?
No, it would be perhaps some of the less than perfect 99% of the NASA people.
You know, somebody really hates his guts and you can easily imagine somebody at NASA does.
Could they do this?
Yeah.
Could this be real?
Yes.
That's a possibility.
We'll be right back.
In other words, I guess I just said that I think Richard C.
Hoagland is a genuine individual, and I give equal possibilities to all this being real and
this being a city on Mars, and an equal possibility to Richard getting hoaxed by
somebody probably within one of our government agencies.
What do you think, Richard?
Would you like to know how we resolve this conundrum tonight?
Sure.
I mean, look, science is all about tests.
Yep.
It's all about prediction.
What really turned me on was when Ron and I were having the conversation, after literally weeks of going around on this, and I suddenly realized we have a totally separate data set, the MOLA profiler, the laser, which could give us an insight.
And when I looked at that data, I could not believe what I saw, because no one had pointed out that at Cydonia we have these extraordinary swings.
I mean, if you go back and look at image number seven, Yes.
And you look at the profile of this region, it looks to the eye, in those images we've got, you know, 3872, 7813, all the usual suspects over the years, looks flat as Kansas, flat as a pancake.
No.
In fact, it's not.
In fact, if you look at that profile, it swings up and down exceeding 3,000 feet, and there isn't a trace Of this on the surface.
Of evidence of it, right?
It looks flat.
Yep.
That means it's got to be dust of some depth overlying something else of some depth.
Is there anybody at NASA who will officially agree that what you're presenting in this graph is most likely technically correct information?
It's their graph!
It's their data.
It's published on the Mars Web, NASA Ames website.
If you go to that website, And in the paper we're preparing, which is the Technical Preliminary Analysis, I will have links to the actual MOLA data.
So you can go and click on it and look at the same masses.
So then, you're saying this is NASA.
This is their NASA data.
This very dark blue, purple, whatever.
All I did was to take it from their website.
Excuse me.
Reflects 4,700 meters.
That's their measurements.
All of that data on that image is their measurements.
Okay.
Official NASA validated from Dr. Smith.
Okay.
So that means that for the first time I had a totally independent tool.
Separate spacecraft, separate missions, separate investigators.
And for some reason nobody told us there's these huge underground canyons underneath all this dust at Cydonia.
As well as I'm sure a lot of other places on Mars because this stuff blows all over.
It's poof dirt in the extreme.
Yeah.
Now, why do you have poof dirt in Nevada?
It's very simple.
I'm sure you know, Art.
All it takes is lots of dust and no water.
Yeah.
And without water, you don't get sedimentation.
It gets finer and finer and finer.
It's like talcum powder.
It is, yeah.
All right.
Well, imagine Mars where there's been no water for eons.
That part is not hard for me to imagine.
Okay, so look at the profile.
We see profile.
We see relief.
We see it isn't smooth.
It isn't stair-step like you'd expect from, for instance, sedimentary layering.
It goes up and down like you've done a laser profile across the skyscrapers of New York.
Now keep in mind that the resolution of the laser altimeter And the resolution of the Themis data is different by a factor of about 3.
The center-to-center spot resolution of the... I would have thought more than 3.
No, it's 3.
Okay.
The center-to-center spot size for the laser pinging is 330 meters.
Okay.
330.
More interesting numbers, folks.
The resolution of the Themis data is nominally 100 meters.
So it's roughly 3 to 1.
Now, if I was taking a laser over New York in a helicopter, and I had some kind of lens where I made it very large, like it was several hundred feet wide, and I tried to do profiles, I wouldn't see the streets, would I?
I would see the tops of buildings averaged with the streets.
Of course, yeah.
Well, you're seeing an average.
If we had a better finger, a better laser profiler, with a tighter beam, my bet is we would see down between the buildings.
You would see all kinds of razor-thin lines going up and down, as opposed to this relatively smooth graph that goes up and down for 3,000 feet.
Roads?
Well, whatever's between the structures.
We don't even know that this is like in L.A.
I mean, think of this as a huge, multi-layered warren, where you would have crossways and, you know, like, there are malls now where you could live eternally inside a mall and never go outside.
You know, you've got gardens, you've got restaurants, you've got libraries, you've got everything.
You never have to go outside.
That's modern America.
You can go to a mall and live there.
Yeah, well, the question is, are we only recapitulating what we used to do a long, long time ago on a planet far, far away?
Though maybe they all lived in malls.
My point is that the data itself is internally consistent.
Now, does this prove it 100%?
No, because there's never 100% in life.
But I would almost, at this point, invoke Occam's Razor.
Which is more likely?
That we're looking at real, separate, disparate data sets that are converging on the same awesome truth, or that some group has set us up for what reason?
Because you know it's going to backfire.
You know we're going to figure it out.
If people will help us, if they'll chip in a few bucks so we can hire the kind of high-tech people that we need, we're going to get to the truth.
We'll get to it legally, we'll get to it technically.
I would like to know, if it is a setup, I really would like to know who's setting you up.
Well, you're going to find out.
And 20 million people out there tonight, I'm sure, would like to know too.
So, if anybody thinks they can get away with this game, it will collapse of its own weight because somebody, look, everybody on this planet who runs an exquisite hoax loves to have their 15 minutes of fame.
The fact that Mr. Gorelick does not want to come on your show and basically say, gotcha, That tells me he can't.
Wouldn't this be kind of a cool thing for him to come on and say, when you were the world's biggest sap, we really got you good.
Wouldn't that be really cool?
I don't think he'd do that.
I don't think he'd do that, Richard.
People understand what, ha ha ha, I got your means from a government guy.
That means that he did a fraud and that would be a very big problem for him.
And they must know that, because I've been very sure for 20 years.
No, I step back and say, how do you know for absolute certainty it's Gorlick?
You don't.
Because Christensen validated Gorlick as an enterprise giving information.
If that is real, I mean, I know you say you emailed him, but I'm telling you, man.
Multiple times.
This cyber world, Richard.
God, they can do anything to you.
Anything.
Anything.
Well, no, they can't do anything, because there are fingerprints.
There are traces.
You know when an ISP is logged on, that's why they can follow Keith around.
Because every time he logs on with a broadband, it's his exact same address.
You know, it's like having a street map.
Of course, it's true.
And we have some very sharp people at Enterprise who, believe me, they were skeptical when this guy claiming to be Mr. Gorelick of ASU came on and said, I'm here to help.
Remember the old joke?
I represent the federal government, I'm here to help.
I'm Art Bell at MindSpring.com.
That's one of the many email addresses I have.
Alright?
Yes.
Listen to me when I tell you.
I've seen people on AOL and elsewhere post messages with headers that would be legitimately mine, with my name.
There are people who can do that at the snap of a finger, and you would not be able to discern, I promise you, the real Art Bell from the spoofed Art Bell.
Without some investigation.
Without?
And we had a month to look and see if this guy is really coming to us from ASU, and if Christensen knows him.
And he has this history.
Yeah.
Do you know what the real BAMF, whose, by the way, bio is on the web, is involved in?
What?
Among other things.
What?
The Society for Creative Anachronism.
What?
You know what that is?
The Society for Creative Anachronisms, like BAMF, right?
Society for Creative Anachronisms.
Like BAMF.
Well, you know, well... That's pretty creative, and it's an anachronism, right?
Well, no, an anachronism is something that's out of time.
Oh, well, okay.
The SCA is a role-playing medieval organization.
They dress up in armor, they make swords, they put on Renaissance spares, they live out a fantasy life, Um, basically out of the Middle Ages.
And Mr. Gorelick turns out to be a member in good standing of a chapter of the SCA there in Tempe, Arizona called the Barony of Twin Moons.
What is that?
What is that?
The Twin Moons refer to Phobos and Deimos of Mars.
The site is filled with Mars allegories and alliteration and metaphors.
Absolutely incredible.
So, this guy is, in his head, into role-playing.
If he thought this would be a cute way to get something real out to the real world, with plausible deniability, I mean, that's why I'm really thinking of him getting the White Hat Award of the Week.
Now, we're going to take it from here.
We're going to find out, with a little help from our friends out there, if, in fact, this did come from ASU, if it is real data, if it was made up.
In other words, we're going to get to the bottom of this, but we can't do it alone.
Enterprise exists to be your voice and eyes and ears at getting at the truth.
There's another thing we need to think very hard about, Art, and that is, this is only the tip, when intended, of the proverbial Cydonia iceberg.
All right, listen.
Pause for a second, Richard.
In this last little bit of time, I honestly want to give the audience the opportunity to at least ask you a few questions, Richard.
Oh, sure.
And Keith.
Well, now there's the problem.
The minute I start putting three people on, I get this weird echo.
So I wanted to give Keith an opportunity to sort of round out between now and the bottom of the hour anything you want to say, Keith.
I mean, you're in the middle of this, obviously, because the images came to you and at what point did you contact Richard?
After I processed a few of them and asked about the blocks and
I got a satisfactory explanation and I went and did a little bit of further review into it. I decided
well let me send this to Richard and see what he thinks about it.
Had you been in communication with Richard prior to that?
No.
So you never had talked to Richard?
I mean, I had been a member of the Enterprise Mission community for a long time, and I found little weird things and said, hey, look at this.
But, you know, never really any real contact.
Our first phone conversation was over this about, what, three weeks ago?
Yes.
Okay.
That's what I wanted to establish.
Okay.
Keith, from your point of view, you know, we've laid out these two possible scenarios.
It's real, it's slipped to you, and we've got the real McCoy here, and the other is, you know, setup.
What probabilities do you give to the two possibilities?
Well, I mean, I'm always after all the NASA people, give me something, slip me something out the back door, you know, do something.
I mean, I will harass them and harangue them.
Once I found out BAMF was there, yes, I harassed and harangued them too.
Now, you know, I know I went to the Themis website and downloaded this image.
I've got it in my computer records that I did so.
Yeah.
Okay.
I mean, there's no doubt to me that I got this Themis image.
I mean, and it's the same one.
I thought it was crap, whether I was redirected or what.
It's no big deal, but I went to the Themis website and did choose that image and downloaded it.
Now the fact that I did it on the 25th, now that might have changed something,
being that that's their sacred day over this particular issue.
I mean, I started processing these images and see there's more to it than just the one image that
Like, if you go to image number one on your site, there's more to it than just those particular colors, because each one of these bands can be ratioed and put in different combinations to show you compositional differences down there.
I mean, you've got to remember, this is a multi-band image.
Right.
So, and when I take the other bands and correlate them in the same way, in the same type of combinations that those bands are made out of, But Keith, you're pretty tight with people at NASA.
I mean, you've done volunteer work for them.
They like your work.
the colors are in different places but still in the same general pattern.
The blocks are different on each one of the banded images even in black and white.
You can look at them and you can tell that the IR is picking up different, which is different for visual.
But Keith, you're pretty tight with people at NASA.
I mean, you've done volunteer work for them. They like your work.
They asked you to go ahead and do work.
And so once you had like image number two with the city, why can't you just go to somebody at NASA?
I sent them some representative pictures, yes, and they were thrilled.
They were thrilled?
Yes, they were like, oh, that's neat.
That's about all I get out of it, because I get the firm feeling that they want me to figure this out on my own.
Hold on here.
It just doesn't make sense to me that they wouldn't offer up more than that's neat to an apparent city.
Well, they're not going to say anything, Art.
Just like how come BAMF is on there calling me a liar?
And he knows the conversations we had.
You know, why would he be saying I'm a liar?
I don't know, and he won't come on.
To me, it's a person at a keyboard somewhere.
Right?
We don't know who BAMF is.
Hold on, everybody.
The images.
They look just like this.
Mountains high, valleys deep.
Except for that troubling city.
That urban city.
Wow.
I am.
I'm.
I.
In a brother's heart Don't you give up baby, don't you cry
Don't you give up so I can risk it all for your side I was lonely then and I couldn't sleep
There's nothing to keep me from my side I was lonely then and I couldn't sleep
Don't bother asking for a heck of a reason She'll just tell you that she came in the year of the cat
In the ear of a cat She doesn't give you time for questions
She doesn't give you time for questions As she locks up your armpits
As she locks up your arm and voice You follow to your sense of which direction
Completely disappears By the blue tile walls, near the market stalls
There's a hint and there she leads you to These days, she says, I feel my life
Just like a river running through In the ear of a cat
Sharkbell in the kingdom of Nye from West of the Rockies dial 1.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
Or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
Good morning everybody.
What a quandary.
I think there's a genuine quandary here.
AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903. This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the
Premier Radio Networks. It is good morning everybody. What a quandary. I think there's a
genuine quandary here. Either it's legitimate information fed in a very unusual, uh, I don't
know, smoke and mirrors way to Richard through Keith and we've got a city on Mars or it's a big complex setup.
And I don't know.
I can't make that call.
I was asking Keith to try and make that call for me in his own estimation.
And I'll sort of refresh that.
We'll continue and also take some calls coming up shortly.
Stay right where you are.
In the interest of time, I would like to finish with Keith and sort of get a definitive answer from you, Keith.
I mean, as you honestly weigh this in your own head, if you're, you know, I know you're immersed in it.
It may be hard to step back from it and assign probabilities of fraud versus, you know, the real McCoy.
How would you stack it up?
I would think it was fraud if it were the other way around and I got the crappy image.
The thing about it is this image is so good.
The data is all there.
It's so clear and you can replicate the results using this image.
Okay, it's not just a one-time thing.
If I take their image, or if I take the other version of the image that I have, and run it through the same processing, I get completely separate results.
And it's degraded, as you can see in your picture on your site.
Yep.
That's what gives it to me.
I mean, the politics of it, all that, escapes me.
I'm just an image processor, and I looked at the data, and this is the conclusion.
Alright, so then basically, your assessment is, it just about It's impossible that it would be a fraud, almost, from your point of view.
Yes.
It wouldn't be near as clean.
They couldn't insert all those blocks into the picture.
Not without leaving a record on the image.
Yeah, okay.
Art, there is a NASA mission orbiting the Earth tonight.
I know one thing we do have in our audience, Richard.
We have a lot of people who process images as a profession, right?
Yep.
And one of the things we wanted to do was to challenge those people Who are neutral, who do not have a stake in this game, or as we used to say, a dog in the fight.
Yeah.
To go to the web, download the duplicate of the image that Keith got, which is a TIFF file, an old TIFF file, it's about almost 8 megs.
The larger original, yes.
The larger original.
Download it, go to the Envy website, the Research Systems Inc.
out of Colorado, and download their software.
Contact them, get a license to process using the same techniques that Keith used, and let's compare results.
We will publish on Enterprise anybody's results on this data.
Side by side by side by side.
And my bet is that the professionals are going to say, this is real data.
It shows unbelievable things.
No, no, what?
No.
What they would say is that it was processed accurately.
Well, when you look at the noise value... They wouldn't necessarily say it's real.
When you look at the noise value... Real is a different question.
Processed accurately, fine.
I agree with you.
Somebody out there could get the same program, process it the same way, and end up with the result that it was processed accurately.
It wasn't fraudulently processed.
But that wouldn't mean the data is real.
If it's a setup, then you were fed inaccurate data in the first place, making the end result of the processing obviously what it is.
Exactly.
The problem with that scenario, Art, is if you look at other NASA missions that have comparable technology.
As I said, there's a mission in orbit tonight called ASTER, A-S-T-E-R, for aerospace thermal imaging.
And if they put data on the JPL website, I have gone and downloaded some of that data to compare side-by-side with the Themis data.
And the original ASTER data is as good as what Keith has been working with.
It has no noise, it's crisp, it's pristine when you decorrelate and stretch it.
It comes out with all the right colors so you can gauge what's down there.
It's not degraded, it's not crappy stuff.
And what I'm really suspecting is that all the other things we've been seeing from the Themis camera at Mars has been equivalently degraded.
Just so no one in the general public understands what an exquisite instrument orbiting Mars Taking surveys that we're never supposed to see.
Well, what a monster story, either way.
There's a way we can get to the end of this, and I want to really, before we lose the time here, we've got 20 minutes left, I want to tell people what we can do.
One of the things that I've been urged by my Washington sources is for Americans listening tonight to this program, wondering about this debate, wondering where it's all going to come out, you can have a voice.
You can decide how we solve this.
And one of the ways you decide by how we solve it is to demand the rest of the infrared imaging from Themis all put out right away.
That seems fair.
They were supposed to publish, according to their pre-mission rules and mandates, all of the data from the first two months, first month, I'm sorry, by August 18th of this year.
And they did not.
They did not.
They now have claimed, BAMF has claimed, Christian has claimed, Saunders has claimed, That they're not going to be able to publish it until October.
My people, my sources are telling me that the reason they have delayed, this is extremely serious, flat out conversation, the reason they're delaying is they are removing the offending artifacts from these images even as we speak.
If we don't get them, get them now.
Richard, what do you think the odds are, just asking here, of getting somebody To officially come on from NASA and either step around these questions in such an obvious way that we know they're lying through their teeth, or tell you you're full of crap, or whatever it is they're going to do directly.
I mean, it's a very serious issue.
It's very serious.
So why couldn't we get somebody from NASA?
Why wouldn't that be a way to settle it?
Put them here on the air with you, Keith, and just go.
I'd look for it.
A friend of mine, you know, Gary Laguerre, who has a radio show on the weekends down in Florida, tried very hard to get Banff to agree to be on his show with me.
Yeah, but I don't want... I don't know about Banff.
I want an official... No, Gorelick is the guy processing the images.
You believe?
No, Gorelick is the man.
Yeah, you believe.
No, I know he is the man.
He is listed in the PDF.
Which is the pre-mission.
As one who's processing?
As one of the guys on the pre-mission.
Okay, but if that's Banff, that's my big jumping off point.
You want to make a side bet, Art?
You want to make a side bet?
He is the guy.
I know you have this suspicion of the internet, so do I. I'm the one that told you that anybody can be a dog on the internet, remember that?
Yeah, Richard, but I've got lots of hard life lessons about the internet.
Well, so have I, but Banff is the guy.
He may try to hide tonight and claim that, you know, we're all having our last 15 minutes and making accusations from the dark against Keith who's simply doing his job, but he does not have the guts to stand up in front of 20 million people and basically say that on the air, does he?
I don't know.
Let's find out.
Well, yes, we need to.
I will pursue Mike's contacts to try to get some responsible official from the There you go.
Yeah, I'll have the network pursue it.
on your air there you go and you will do the same thing you all have the network
will be paid for the same station say whatever i will have the network
pursue it but while we are doing that or while we're doing that people out there tonight need to
know that the clock is ticking and people are a briefing
evidence from the pictures according to my sources in washington and they wanted me to communicate tonight it is a
practically important it is critically important
that we don't have all of the night time and daytime i are data right away
yet probably not wait two weeks not wait ten days away like we got this image
once they are what they have time to do to the original data what they have done to the temperate
band and posted it at the official version there's no bringing that
pristine data back Listen, Keith, I really want to thank you for coming on the air.
Oh, sure.
I don't know what to say to you except be safe because, you know, either way this could be trouble for y'all.
If it's a hoax, it's trouble.
If it's the real thing, it's trouble.
So be safe.
And thank you for coming on the air tonight.
Sure.
And telling us everything.
All right?
Thank you.
Thanks, Keith.
Bye-bye.
Thank you.
So there goes Keith.
Now, I just want to take a couple of calls, Richard, and just get a little reaction from the audience.
That's all right?
Let's try it.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
Hello.
Hi, Art.
Hi, Richard.
How are you guys doing?
Okay.
Where are you, sir?
I am in the Midwest.
My name is Steve, Illinois.
I'm calling representing the Art Bell chatroom.
I'm Delna.
My screen name is Alien Intelligence.
The majority of the room, we feel this is a hoax.
We really do.
We've looked at all the pictures, and I'm not buying it, and we're not buying it.
I want to know, and I'm just going to ask my question and get off.
Is this going to damage your credibility?
That's my question.
Thanks a lot.
Who cares?
I want the truth.
Uh, yeah, I mean, it's a legit question, Richard.
How can asking questions, you know, if we had come on and not given you the history of this image, if we come on and simply claim we've got it?
Take it or leave it?
Well, if somebody... That'd be one thing.
Yeah, but if somebody manages to get you to swallow a hoax, they have probably damaged your credibility.
No, no, I don't buy it.
I do not buy it.
The issues here are much too important.
Remember, we're looking at a 20-year cover-up documented by people like Stan McDaniel, myself, and legions of others over the years regarding the issue of, is there or was there ever an intelligence on Mars?
This is merely the latest turn of the page.
We now have an exquisite instrument which can give us totally new information, which we believe we have gotten.
But I don't think if I were you, I would have gone to error with this until, for example, I got on the telephone with one of the individuals that you're talking about and had recorded a conversation where he admitted he was so-and-so or so-and-so was BAMF or whatever.
In other words, a level of knowledge Beyond what was fed to you on the internet.
And what came across the internet, even as email, Richard.
I don't think I've gone to error until I talked to one of these individuals.
Did you try?
Did we try what?
Did you try to talk to one of these individuals in person?
They won't talk to me.
Don't you understand?
I'm persona non grata.
They won't even take calls from you?
No.
That's why we are reduced to email.
The modern mode of communications.
Now, you can check, you know, whether an email is coming from Christensen's office or not.
Well... And that, we have done.
We've changed... But I just finished telling it.
It's the truth, Richard.
People post messages from me on the Internet, and I swear to God, headers and all, you can't tell it's not from me.
That's, you know, that's something they can do.
Snap in the hand, they can do it.
I know they can do it.
Well, they've done it with me, too.
Well, there you are.
They've done it with me, too.
There you are.
So...
Well, part of this continuing process is, yes, we will attempt to establish, you know, I mean, ultimately, how do you know that somebody on the phone is the real guy?
You don't?
Exactly.
You don't?
So we are reduced to the absurd.
And the bottom line is that we have a potential real discovery here that needs resources to follow up, to follow through.
And I have people telling me, who I have known for half a decade, who I have met, And sat in the same room with, and exchanged lots of information, who are connected to the previous Reagan administration, and now to this administration, who are telling me this is real data, and proceed.
And I do trust them.
Alright, well I would like to offer any of the individuals mentioned, a number one, airtime, to come on the air, with or without Richard Hoagland being present.
To air their side of this story.
I think it would be worthy.
There are many who would not come on with you, Richard.
I know that.
But to get to it, I would be willing to have them on without your presence.
You've been on tonight without theirs, though you have asked for it.
I'd be willing to have them on either way and try and get to the bottom of this.
I don't see any other way to pursue it.
The problem is, since the official project is not publishing any data around any of its images, no ancillary data, no spacecraft look angles, no sun emission, no date, no time, no orbit, I mean, it's a very uneven playing field here.
You know, it's the old, we're NASA and you're not.
And the only way to write that is for people to go to the website and download all those emails we put up there of all the major players politically And media-wise, in the United States of America tonight.
Oh, there'll be plenty of people who are going to do that, Richard.
They're streaming up there, I'm sure.
Absolutely.
And we know that's how we got this image in the first place.
When you were on vacation, and I was on with George, we did a program before the 24th of July, where we basically demanded people go and demand that image.
And lo and behold, within a week or so, we got the image.
And we got nine bands to work with.
It didn't just put out one image, you know, just one black and white, like they've done for most other places on Mars and the infrared.
Right.
They gave us nine bands to work with.
Then folks from ASU show up at Enterprise and tutor our people in how to work with infrared imaging.
It does not take a rocket scientist to say that somebody wanted us to work with this image to find out what was on it.
And they're simply sticking with plausible deniability, football, no fingerprints.
I would agree, Richard, that's a 50% possibility.
I happen to know, though, and I won't name them, but you know that I know people who hate you enough.
Sure, sure.
With probably the knowledge... Go back to the underlying thing.
They hate you because of your criticism over the years of NASA.
Straight out.
They hate me because NASA has been hiding things and we are on the trail of figuring it out.
Well, one of those two.
One of those two, Richard.
But you know that I know these people who hate you to that degree, who would and probably do have the ability to hope something of this magnitude.
And if that has happened, we will figure that out too, will we not?
Now, the important thing to leave this audience with is that we have a way of testing The ultimate truth of everything that's been said tonight.
And that is, we demand the rest of the data.
We don't let them vacuum off the interesting things.
And let me tell you one astonishing potential in this data.
You asked me at the top of the show why we were seeing these things so clearly, even through so much dust and ice.
Yes.
I discussed that with Ron two days ago.
And as we were working through the physics of this, I said, you know, Ron, I'm reaching a tentative conclusion that I think is going to knock your socks off.
You better sit down.
And he says, OK.
I said, the only way I can see realistically for this to be what we're seeing in the daytime is if it's not just being warm by the sun, but if it's intrinsically warm in and of itself.
In other words, these things are warm under there.
They have power flowing to them.
The lights are still on.
Well, there's a wild one.
Think of the next step.
That could account for it.
Think of the next step, because my bush guy says, you've got to get the nighttime infrared.
If you do, it's game over.
So I said to him two days ago, I said, have you been trying to tell me that this stuff still has power to it, that it's warm?
Because any power ultimately degrades to heat, right?
If I have a lightbulb, a computer, anything it degrades to heat.
So if I take an infrared thermal image I will get heat.
Particularly on Mars where it's damn cold.
So you're saying you might be seeing a living... No, I'm saying the lights are on but nobody's home.
Because the technology that we have projected for this level of civilization Hyperdimensional physics allows a technology that's just like the Energizer Bunny, keeps going and going and going.
And here is the capper.
If we get a nighttime infrared image of Cydonia, if I'm right, then it should look like Los Angeles down there in the dark.
It should be glowing like neon signs up and down Hollywood and Vine.
Mr. and Mr. American, you have got to help us get this data and get it now.
And the email list, and the fax numbers, and the phone numbers, and all those talk shows, and all those politicos, and the White House, and the Congress, and everyone who can be interested in the outcome is on our website tonight.
Just go to EnterpriseMission.com, go down to the slug that says, How You Can Help, and you'll find tons of ways that you can meaningfully help.
God, this is so fascinating, Richard.
Either way, absolutely fascinating.
I'll give you that.
Well, my friend, I'm glad that you are vouching for my integrity.
That means a lot.
Yeah, of course.
I mean, over the years, I know you are fanatically, truly devoted to your work.
I mean, there's absolutely no question about that.
Whether you've been had or not, that's a big question right now.
Listen, buddy, I gotta go.
We've laid it out for everybody and, you know, I'd like my audience to think for themselves and do for themselves.
So go get programmed, compare, do whatever you want.
Check into it.
Help Richard.
I'm Art Bell.
Richard, good night.
Good night, my friend.
Night, everybody.
It's all up to you now.
This is Coast to Coast AM in the nighttime.
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