Richard C. Hoagland presents 30+ years of hidden NASA, Soviet, and Pentagon infrared data revealing "regularly irregular" city-block-sized structures beneath Mars’ Cydonia dust—20 miles wide, 125 miles long—aligned with precision, defying natural noise. Keith Laney’s reprocessed Themis images (July 24–25) show clear subsurface blocks, later replaced by noisier versions by ASU’s Noel Gorelik ("BAMF"), sparking accusations of suppression. MOLA measurements in Sidonia expose 3,000-foot elevation changes under flat terrain, hinting at buried architecture. Hoagland demands full Themis data release, accusing NASA of a 20-year cover-up, while skeptics question authenticity—yet he insists truth requires public pressure and independent scrutiny. [Automatically generated summary]
From the high desert and the great American Southwest.
I think you all, good evening, good morning, good afternoon, whatever time zone you may be residing in at the moment.
I'm our balance post 12 a.m.
Live talk radio throughout the nighttime.
This night's program, this morning's program, whatever.
It's so important.
And there's so much information to get to you that we are going to begin in the first hour with it.
It is, of course, Richard C. Hookland, who is a former Museum Space Science Curator, a former NASA consultant, and during the historic hollow missions to the moon was science advisor to Walter Cronkite and CBS News.
For the past 19 years, Richard has been leading an outside scientific team in a critically acclaimed independent analysis of possible, some very closely, possible intelligently designed artifacts on NASA and other data sets, beginning with the unmanned NASA Viking mission to Mars back in 1976 and its provocative images of a region called Sidonia.
Of course, the face.
In 1993, Hopeland was awarded the International Angstrom Medal for Excellence in Science by the Angstrom Foundation in Stockholm, Sweden for that continuing research.
In the past four years, he and his team's investigations have been quietly extended to include over 30 years of previously hidden data from NASA, Soviet, and Pentagon missions to the moon with startling results.
And startling is certainly the word that would be appropriate for what he's going to say tonight.
It lies directly ahead.
Well, this is going to be one of the perhaps most startling programs we've ever done with some pretty serious information in it about Mars.
And I'm not sure how else to begin other than to say that's the reason we're starting in the first hour because of the gravity of the show.
Here from the mountains of New Mexico is Richard C. Hoagland.
In other words, first, before we even begin down the trail of how you got to where you are, what is the bottom line?
Are you saying that there are architectural designs, there is some sort of irrefutable proof of cities, I don't know if that's the right word, cities, urban type developments, kind of like what they're talking about off the coast of Cuba, on Mars, and that you've uncovered this information with the new IR color data.
And in fact, it's very eerie you should bring up the Cuba ruins because we have found these roughly at the same depth under Sidonia that the Cuban ruins were found by Paulina Zelitsky off Cuba.
It's five pages with background, but obviously the important stuff is in the first two or three paragraphs.
We have been working on this ever since this audience, your audience, while you were on vacation, working very hard with the leadership of George and that chair.
He was able to get enough people to email and fax NASA and the folks at ASU, Arizona State University, the project leadership of the Mars Odyssey mission, which is currently orbiting Mars tonight, to basically get kicked loose a daytime color infrared image of Sidonia.
After months and months and months and months and months of foot dragging and excuses and, oh, the dog ate it, and oh, it's not processed, and it's not calibrated, and it's on my dining room table, but I forgot to bring it in.
I mean, everything possible, this audience, these people out there listening to us tonight are, stepped up to the plate one more time with feeling and did what good Americans do in the clinch.
They made their voices heard and they got something.
Now, for a lot of us, initially in the first few hours after we saw it posted on the website at ASU on July 24th of this year, which is a little over a month ago, we thought we'd been had once again.
Well, because what we had demanded, what we'd asked for, was the nighttime infrared image of Sidonia.
My sources, and we'll get into this much later in the evening, much more heavily later in the evening, in Washington have told me unequivocally that what we really want to see, if after tonight you think you've seen anything on the daytime images, wait till you see the nighttime, because that's where the payoff is.
That's where the big prize that I've been looking for now for 20-some years, namely the unequivocal proof of the ruins of an extraterrestrial civilization on Mars, apparently lie.
All right, but to what degree of certainty with regard to the photographs you've got now, the daytime color IR photographs, to what degree of certainty can you sit here tonight and declare you have found architectural ruins on Mars?
And there are a whole bunch of reasons that we're going to go through.
All the tests we've done, all the cross-checking, all the various internocene viewings we've done, all of this comes up that we're looking at real data, and what's really there is there.
Because what makes this so extraordinary, Art, is this data did not come to us directly.
It was filtered through a trusted colleague who has been working for a year or two with the NASA Ames MarsWeb program doing image processing for them as part of this worldwide virtual Mars network that they have set up for investigators to plug into NASA data anywhere in the world.
And as part of that system, he has established a lot of contacts with the NASA Ames people, with people in Washington, other NASA centers, with Dr. Malin and his group.
And it was to him that this image actually was lovingly and cherishedly bequeathed, not to us.
And we believe that this was part of someone's plan to give the data, the pristine, stunning, real, themis-infrared data of Sidonia, not to Hoagland and company, who instantly would be accused of making everything up because, of course, we want it to be real, but to someone that was one of their own, someone that it would be a little harder to accuse of fabrication, of fraud, of hoax, et cetera, et cetera, as the spin doctors will go to work, and you know they will.
They are not forthcoming at all about even the heritage of the images that they have published.
There's no ancillary data for any of the images up on the Odyssey website tonight.
There's no sun angles.
There's no orbit numbers.
There's no even day when they take the pictures.
The pictures that are up there are the day they are released.
They could be, you know, again, like Dr. Malin used to do, keep them in a drawer for months before they put them up.
To answer your question, Art, I am extraordinarily confident because of the way this image was acquired, and we're going to go into that in exquisite detail, the processing steps that were applied to it, we're going to go into that in great detail, and the character and integrity of the individual who got it, namely Keith Laney, and we'll go into that in detail.
He lives in Charlotte, North Carolina, not far from where my old homestead used to be.
He is an independent contractor.
He does image processing.
He's been a member of the anomalous community, meaning he's looked at moon data and Mars data and whatever for years and years and years.
And as I said, in the last year or so, he was accepted by the NASA program at NASA aims to work on data for them in preparation for the unmanned rover landings on Mars in 2004.
He's seriously trusted by NASA, and I can announce tonight that he went to his bosses there and asked them if they would be interesting in publishing the data we are publishing tonight ourselves.
So for those who don't understand, how you might see an object beneath the surface of Mars would be a delta, a difference between the heat on the surface and the heat beneath the surface.
And I think tonight, as we go through this, you're going to find that if Mars were not the place it is and have the unique history it has, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation because I don't think even the NASA people, even the Themis team understands, fully understands,
although there is some indication from an abstract that the principal investigator of the Themis camera, Dr. Christensen, published this afternoon in Washington prior to the October DPS meeting, which is a major scientific meeting, Division of Planetary Sciences that is held every year.
He said that on other data taken by this camera since February, they've been in operation orbiting Mars, taking these kinds of infrared images since February of this year, February 18th, they have now found evidence of subterranean, sub-Marsian, sub-Aryan valley Networks of rivers that are not visible on either the Viking image or the Mars Global Surveyor.
According to, and this is going to really blow people's minds, according to an independent instrument on another spacecraft that everybody except us had forgotten, the laser, the laser pinger, the device that is actually doing profile, or was up until the instrument broke a few months ago, doing profiling around Mars.
And the pinger, the laser used to do the profiles, is 10.6 microns.
The images that we're looking at range from 6.62 to 12.58.
So the laser is in the infrared, the thermal infrared, in the middle of the precise waveband we're looking at with these pictures.
And so what we're seeing with the laser in terms of bottom profiling is apparently going down through an enormous amount of extraordinarily dry and finely divided dust.
Well, the first model, when we were looking at this, and we'll go into how we tripped over all this, we thought we were looking at structures that were basically sitting underneath the poof dirt, the dust, which is incredible.
I mean, this is finer than talcum powder.
This stuff has been pulverized and pulverized, and no one, I think, even the NASA people, have appreciated how it will drift and sit and stay in deep valleys and canyons.
This is why Dr. Christensen is seeing these ancient river networks.
Well, the first model we had was that the sunlight, infrared, energy, heat energy from the sun, was warming stuff up underneath the poof dirt during the day.
And as it warmed it up, it would warm it up differentially.
In other words, things that are dark will absorb more energy than things that are light.
So the more we looked at this, and if you look in detail at the images and you match them with the EMOLA profiles, we have a shallow area north of the face on Mars.
Remember, this is the region of the infamous face.
The shallow region is only a few hundred feet below the surface.
The region below the face to the south of it across that basin is down to 3,000 feet arc below the surface that we see.
This is certainly very serious stuff, no matter how you take it, and I know some stick their noses in the air and, you know, sniff BS.
But I think that all of you should examine an effort this serious with the kinds of consequences for mankind, should it be true.
I'll read you just the first paragraph of the press release.
You can read the entire thing on a link on my website.
Enterprise mission investigators confirm presence of artificial structures on Mars, but conflicting database sets raise serious legal and political questions.
New research by investigators for the Enterprise Mission, a private not-for-profit space science research organization, has revealed overwhelming evidence of ancient artificial structures on Mars.
Working with recently released daytime infrared imaging of the Sidonia region of the planet Mars, a team of independent investigators from around the world has uncovered clear and unmistakable evidence of a massive city-like grid structure just beneath the dusty surface of this northern Martian desert.
In addition, individual buildings the size of city blocks have been revealed that display unambiguous evidence of architectural design.
Those are very strong words.
That's the first paragraph of what you can read on my website right now.
Just go to the website, go to artbell.com.
Tonight's program information and all of that and much more await you.
I have always been suspicious there was life on Mars.
Billions of years ago, I have no problem grasping the concept that there may well have been life on Mars.
Mars, we know, was a very different place.
It had an atmosphere, it had moisture, it had water, it had all the ingredients that you'd need for life before something happened to Mars, and that's another argument and another program probably, but it certainly had the setup for life.
No question about it.
So could there have been an entire civilization then covered up in the matter being described tonight?
Should there not be cities found?
Actually, I've got a couple of questions, Richard.
Shouldn't there be cities found not just here at Sidonia, but perhaps in many regions of Mars?
I had a long discussion this afternoon with Ron Nix, who is, as you know, is one of our geologists, and he's preparing a paper, a technical paper on this we'll publish later in the week or maybe early next week.
Every time we give an estimate as to how long it's going to take us to do something on this, it's just so extraordinary and we have to check so many things.
The way you just go up to the website, artbell.com, go to program, go to tonight's guest info when you get there, under the name Richard C. Hohland, which will be immediately apparent.
You'll see images, second thing down, second link down, images, one, two, three, four, five, six.
What is striking and what Ron and I were discussing is if you go look at the strip, and I don't know how big on your screen, can you, is it fairly big on your screen?
In other words, if you are looking at a scene through a window which is illuminated at a side angle and the window is scattering light, then you look through the best definition would be you're looking through a windshield driving west toward the afternoon sun, the setting sun.
But even as I look at this, help me and everybody else who's looking at this right now to differentiate between the irregular, irregular nature of rocks and geoformation and something.
The face is the strange, multicolored thing with the glowing orange eye on the left, the bright hood-like thing on the right, the blue shadow on the lower right.
Well, why would a canyon-like geologic setup on Mars where it hasn't rained in God knows how long and it's supposed to be wind scoured, why wouldn't it be smooth as a baby's you know what?
Why would it have stair-step profiles?
Why would it have in the Viz image, in the, I'm not visible, but in the theme this image, go back to strip number one, if you now match the strip, in other words, what you need to do is reorient yourself just a little bit.
If Earth had a catastrophic event and the Grand Canyon were to fill up with dust blowing from wind, which is, you know, after some, I don't know, after something hits a planet or something awful catastrophic happens, why couldn't I imagine the Grand Canyon filling with dust?
you know what this looks like folks it looks like looks like you're looking at uh...
a los angeles housing community through the fog at night you know or or or yeah at night i think it looks like I'll be damned if it doesn't look like buildings, buildings everywhere.
And they seem to have an incredible This is not possible, Richard.
Everybody out there needs to go to my website and after you peruse the initial data, which to you and me won't mean much, go to photograph or picture number two and just look at it and it's going to jump right out at you.
All right, we will save that for when we get Keith Laney on, who we're going to go to at the top of the hour, who is the guy who actually got this image, works with the Mars OIP program at NASA Ames, has become a real damn good friend in the last months because we have literally done this day and night by phone and email.
We have never met.
We have simply shared a love for the truth and what's really out there.
And it's due to Mr. Laney and his persistence in learning how to work with this data art because he prepared the data.
All I'm doing is interpreting what we're seeing.
It's Keith Laney's data you are looking at right now.
I'm just a talk show host, you know, I'm not a scientist, but, and nor am I easily impressed with a lot of photographs Richard has brought forth to me.
But I've got to tell you, this photograph number two really is an oh my god photograph.
Image number two, holy smokes.
It's L.A. It's any suburban city viewed from a helicopter at night from above.
We'll get some idea of the size, relative size of these objects in a moment.
As we continue with Richard C. Hogan, the coming up, the man who supplied these images, who works with NASA.
I'm Mark Bell.
Well, I'll say it one more time.
This second image, image number two of the seven, is astounding.
And I'm wondering if the rest of you are seeing it the way I am.
I'll be damned if this doesn't look like a suburb.
Okay, the left-hand strip is what's called a false color decorated stretch version of six of the image bands of the eight that they released.
There are actually nine bands on the original data, but two of them are duplicates because of signal-to-noise technical issues.
So you have eight bands of infrared data.
Eight colors would be another way of looking at it.
And as Keith will explain, the way you have to work with this multispectral data, because it isn't black and white, it isn't visual imagery, is very different than we usually use with black and white images.
He learned a phenomenal amount and actually got very cozy with a very big company called Kodak and a division of theirs called Research Systems Inc.
that provided him an enterprise for an indefinite period what I have been laughingly calling the Lexus of Imaging Programs.
It's a program called NV3.5, which is about a $7,000 computer program.
And it's this state-of-the-art program which allows you to basically do all this with point-and-click and tutorials.
And I mean, it's basically flying a 747 as if you've never flown one before, but you're a grand master at it.
And it was this software and their tutorials and Keith's very bright learning curve that allowed him to come up the curve and to produce the data we were talking about tonight.
And Ron and I actually went through some calculations the other night, you know, comparing things we build that are big, like Mount Rushmore and all that.
This was my key indicator, because if this pattern, if as you said a moment ago, if some wacky grad student at ASU had basically pulled a huge hoax on us here and stuck an aerial photograph of LA over a themis image, It wouldn't know to respect the objects that are above the dust that we've been looking at for the last 20 years.
Yeah, your reaction when I heard you a few minutes ago, I was like, yes, this is exactly how I felt when I first processed this image, and it popped out on me when I opened it.
When I first saw it, I looked at it, and, you know, I didn't even want to look at it any further.
But the next day, I thought, well, you know, I might be a little harsh.
You know, I might have been a little harsh about that.
And so I went back to the site, looked at it again.
It was still terrible.
But I downloaded it and stored it away, forgot about it, you know.
And then I'm getting on the bulletin board the next couple days, and the reaction to me saying that, and, you know, and Richard echoing it on your show, obviously brought the hornets out of the woodwork.
And they came out on the bulletin board saying that this image shows nothing about Sidonia is particular.
And, you know, we were looking at this terrible image, and I had to react.
What in the world are you talking about?
How do you know this?
You know, we haven't even done anything to the images yet.
And basically, it just challenged me to go back.
You know, it kept goading me until finally I started processing some of these because, I mean, gosh, I've been doing this for a long time, and there's nothing that I can't learn about doing it.
In fact, it's the most important part, I think, of this entire mystery.
About a month before this image was released, a gentleman showed up at the Enterprise Electronic Conference called BAMP, B-A-M-F, which is obviously a screen name, a pseudonym.
And he began posting.
In fact, he posted some peculiar threads, one of which was called, Where's the Science Happen Around Here?
Very provocative, very in-your-face.
He turns out to be none other than a gentleman named Noel Gorilik, who is the manager of the famous ASU Mars Computation Center, which literally is working with Dr. Christensen as part of the team with 14 programmers under him.
And the ISP's check and where he logs on and all this.
So, no, this is the guy.
He started hanging out at Enterprise a month before this image came to light, before it was released.
And he stayed and stayed and stayed.
And he sent all kinds of private emails.
He's posted all kinds of material on the website.
He's engaged in long, complicated chats with various people.
And he picked out certain people like Keith and a gentleman in Germany called Holger Eisenberg and a couple of others to begin giving kind of private tutorials in how to work with infrared multispectral data.
Okay, so I'm sitting there and I'm processing these images, and it's, of course, you have to ratio the bands together, and then you have to combine them in red, green, and blue.
So I'm sitting here, and I do my first image, and I'm going, wow, these blocks all pop out at me, and I'm seeing this city pattern.
And you know, the funny thing about the city pattern, where the stuff sticks up, I mean, where there's no dust over it, you can see several of the areas on the picture.
Where there's no dust, there's no blocks.
But where the dust is piled up, you see the blocks.
Where there's no dust, you actually see the structure up above the surface.
That's right.
And so I'm looking at this, and these guys from ASU are on here saying there's nothing peculiar in eye, you know.
And I contacted Noel Gorlick in private chat one night and I said, hey, man, you know, what are these blocks on here?
And he's telling me, oh, so you found the secret, huh?
What you're saying is a very serious charge, really.
unidentified
Well, I mean, actually, if they thought they were noise, if they thought they were noise, they would honestly be trying to find something to filter them off.
It's Malin's camera, the Mars Orbital Camera on Mars Global Surveyor, M-O-C-Mock.
That's the imagery, white, white, black-and-white imaging that Keith has been working on for the MarsWeb program at NASA Ames for about a year.
So Noel Gorlick, the chief programmer of the computers working on the Odyssey imaging in Chat at Enterprise is kind of sneakily saying, hey, buddy, how do you get rid of the noise on those other images?
Hold on, hold on, hold on Do what you got Yeah Every time, Monday, your face is happy.
The places you used to go But all I've got is a photograph And I realize you're not coming back anymore I thought I'd make it The day you went away But I
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You know, I'm not that great with the raw strip photography.
However, I can see how the strip photography, like in image one, relates to what we see in image two.
I think when you get to image two, and to get to that, you go to my website at artbell.com, click on program tonight's guest info, and you'll see images one through seven.
Now, image number two, I'm looking at a city.
This is not ambiguous.
There's no way in hell if this is a real image.
There's no way in hell this is any natural formation.
And I'm certain that anybody out there would agree with me.
There's no way.
There's no way this is a city.
In image number two.
If the image is legitimate, if what we're seeing is real, then this is artificial.
And this is proof of artificial structures on Mars.
Perhaps better photographic proof than we have of what is said to lay beneath the city off the coast of Cuba.
Quite some bit better, as a matter of fact.
This is startling.
It jumps out at you.
You don't have to dig in to look for it.
It does, as Richard and Keith have Suggested, if you look at the geography from that which is above ground, it is coexistent with and contiguous with the rest of the image geographically.
You can see if somebody were to try and fake something like this, I just don't know how they could do it.
If they slipped an image to Keith and Richard that was fake, they did a damn good job of it because it looks truly authentic.
And if it is authentic, then we are looking at a city on Mars.
I'm willing to say that much.
In image number two, I don't think anybody out there could sit and say that this would be any sort of noise.
Now, they might say that.
We'll ask about that.
Could this be some sort of pixelated noise that we're looking at?
There's a good question.
We'll ask in a moment.
Let's do exactly that right now.
Let's ask both Richard C. Hoagland and Keith Laney, who's been doing photographic analysis for NASA for about a year now, why, the one thing I guess I would ask myself is what is at contention here,
and that is, how are we not to know that this is not some sort of pixelated noise that we're looking at, even as artificial as it would appear to be, after all, a camera is an artificial mechanism, and it will at times produce artificial artifacts.
Noel, if you're really out there and that really is you, then go ahead, give us a phone number, and at least make your case and tell us what's wrong with what we're looking at.
Because to me, if it's legitimate, I mean, what is he saying?
I think that's one way to get to the bottom of this.
We have tried, by the way, we sent emails to Dr. Christensen several times this week asking questions about this data, and we will get to some of those details in a moment.
But Dr. Christensen, when we provided him with side-by-side copies of Keith's processing of the, quote, real image that was slipped to him and the data which is sitting on the FIMIS website tonight, he has not answered us in 48 hours.
So in other words, the data that would supposedly correlate and be the exact same data as we have right here is on the website tonight is not the same.
Okay, now the image on the right is one of Keith's incredibly decorrelated versions of the image He was slipped or he was guided to, or actually, there's a term in the industry for how he got the image.
It's called Bamthing.
When you take someone electronically and key them into a website where they don't know what they're going to get, it's called Bamthing.
And what we have done is we have emailed Dr. Christensen, who pays Mr. Gorilik's salary.
He has admitted that Noel Gorilik is the person he claims to be, that he's been in the enterprise chat room and has only raised certain questions about our handling of the data.
So to me, there's no doubt that Banff is Gorilik, is the guy who's processing these images, is the guy who guided, who Banff Keith to getting this image, and for some reason he won't admit it.
Now, why wouldn't he admit it?
This gets really intriguing, folks.
And there is no end to the mysteries here or the implications of the mysteries.
Back to image number three.
If you look at the image art, on the right is the pristine version that Keith got and worked with.
The image on the left, at least we think it's the image you're going to find, is the image on the NASA themist website tonight.
If you look at them side by side, you'll see that the image on the right is crystal clear, has stunning multispectral colors, has all kinds of subtle shadings, and of course the block-like features that we think are the city underneath the dust.
The image on the left is noisy, streaky, faded, full of stuff you can't even analyze.
Look at the absolutely non-geological character of this five-sided massive pyramid that I've said for the last 20 years seems to be a huge building on the planet Mars.
Look at the same image on the left.
If you look very carefully, you'll see hints of what's on the right.
But it's obvious that what's happened to the image on the left is that somebody has dropped 15 carloads of noise on top of it and done a few other things.
There are two other images they've released of other regions of Mars.
They don't look anything like this.
There are no blockies.
There's no noise.
They're just kind of average multispectral images of another planet.
And Banff, aka Noel Gorlick, admitted in his conversations with Laney that there was these peculiar blocks that they couldn't figure out how to get rid of on this image.
Now, there is some question about who the Smythe character is.
He also showed up, very knowledgeable in infrared multispectral processing, but he claims not to be the Dan Smythe who was a leader in the field at MIT.
But won't you think that, you know, I mean, if this is a hoax, it is the most extraordinary, elaborate, technically sophisticated process Well, The headers on the images are different.
unidentified
I myself have three different versions of this image.
I've got the official one from the Themis website that's up now.
I have the official one from the Themis website that I downloaded on the 25th.
When this whole thing came down, when we finally realized after the show I did with George that we were going to pressure them to release an IR image of Sidonia finally, Dr. Saunders, who was the official project scientist, admitted in an email spread around the world on the internet that the image was going to be released within a few days.
This was on a Sunday.
My guys and I got together and I looked at the calendar and I said, oh my God, I'll bet they're going to release it on the 25th of July.
That turned out to be the anniversary of 35A72, the first Sidonia image of the face on Mars taken by Vikings 31 years ago.
So I sent some emails to some people who were on the Enterprise Conference, and I said, I'm betting on the 25th.
I said to Mike Barra, I'm betting on the 25th.
So on the 24th, when they put the image out, needless to say, I was a tad disappointed because the ritual had been broken.
Except Keith was maneuvered, manipulated, goaded, whatever you want to call it, into downloading his image on the night of the 25th from that website, and it was the stunning real image, and it looks as if the ritual was confirmed.
Now, let me get to the real part of the story.
As Keith is preparing these images for the processing, what you got to do is you have to tilt them vertical, slice them out of their background on the theme this website, and put them basically by themselves so you can layer them one over the other, over the other, and do the mathematics in the MV program.
He had to align them so that they measure so many pixels wide and so many pixels long.
Tell art and the nation how many pixels wide and long these images prepared over four days by Mr. Gorlick are.
unidentified
Okay, when you average the distance of the little jagged edges on the picture and rotate it vertical, it comes out to be 333 by 1947 pixels.
How about that?
And you have to rotate the image by the magic number of 727 and a little over that.
Okay, you've got to rotate the image seven degrees to get it against a little over 70.
Here's the other problem I have, Richard, and that is when you lay these images side by side, the ones Keith has supplied, the high detail, and the ones that are on the site, you can, in fact, see hints that they're exactly the same thing in different details.
Yeah, that much I can go along with.
unidentified
Well, the bad thing about that is that, and this has fooled a lot of people, is that they look at the image as presently displayed and they look at my original raw image and they go, well, Keith, your image looks like crap.
And I'm like, well, that's what I thought.
You know, I mean, that's what I thought.
Until I really processed the image, I thought it was a hunk load of crap, and it did not look like the present image.
All right, if this BAMF, whoever he is, wants to supply phone number, now would be the time to do it.
And if you don't, then we'll presume you don't want to defend yourself, nor do you wish the truth to get out beyond the limits of somebody's chat room somewhere.
unidentified
I'm crying on the corner, waiting in the rain like well, I'll never have a way again.
You gave me a word, words for you all I Darling in my wildest dreams I never thought of you.
But if I could let you know for the heart of my heart, smell the touch, the something inside that we need so much.
The sight of the touch, or the scent of the sand, or the strength of an oak leaves deep in the ground.
The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing.
To lie in the middle and hear the grass sing.
To have all these things in our memories home.
And they use them to come.
To come.
Wanna take a ride?
Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
And to call ART on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
Now, with regard to what Richard has said of these images, I am of the opinion that when you look at them, if these are genuine, underline, big, underline, under if, because we're going to get to that part in a moment, if they're genuine, then the image number two clearly is a city, a city on Mars.
Now, that's what's at stake here.
However, there's a part of this that I'm having real difficulty digesting, and that is the sort of the way that it has come to Keith and to Richard.
The manner in which it's come, I mean, it's very, very suspect from my point of view.
Secret acronyms, innuendos, secret messages by spoofed people on the internet.
I really have a difficult time with that.
And when you're considering balancing in your, you know, the way I do with everything, and I hope you do too, you sit out there and balance what we've got here.
On the one hand, do we have a real city on Mars?
That's not trivial news, is it?
And it does look like a city if it's genuine, but is it genuine?
Well, we're dealing with people sending messages in chat rooms and crap like that.
That really begins to weigh heavily on the other hand on the BS scale.
You know, it starts to weigh pretty heavily in my mind.
I've had plenty of experience with the Internet, and as wonderful an instrument as the Internet is, and it is a wonderful instrument, it's absolutely all rules not applying to anything.
I mean, our society needs to get around to that.
There needs to be some way that you can be identified on the Internet.
And there are certain ways, but anything, nearly anything a good hacker will tell you can be spoofed, period.
So either this is the real McCoy, and there's a big damn city under Mars, or it's not the real McCoy.
And as we trace how this has all come to pass, I worry very heavily about the way the information has been passed, handled, and the discussion has taken place in internet chat rooms.
Not good.
will be uh...
right back All right, once again, Richard C. Hoagland, and of course, Keith Laney in North Carolina.
I have not called NASA in kind words the guys who are doing us in, not the honest folks over there, but the other ones, in a very long time, have I?
I basically claim that we are being lied to, we are being deceived, we are being led down the garden path.
They are keeping all kinds of important data secret from the people who paid for it.
You know, the old acronym that back in my days with Cronkite, we used to call NASA Never a Straight Answer, has been turned up in spades.
And this is only the latest example of many, many others.
what is extraordinary what i find sociologically and politically so interesting today is that instead of just leaving us alone little small bunch of crazy to think there's something out there when the agency says there's nothing or maybe somebody to enough to to feed this to you to go to enough trouble to
Now, it's a kind of a cornerstone of the Constitution that when you are accused of a crime, you get a chance to face your accuser.
Keith's accuser tonight is using the Enterprise Conference to basically claim that Keith is a hoaxer, a liar, has created a fraud, has gone on your show and told 20 million people complete lies and nonsense and made up fairy tales, but he will not come on your show art, on your air, and say this to Keith's face.
Now, there was a campaign, the Dukakis campaign, where the candidates exchanged insults and accusations.
When those accusations were not answered, people assumed that the accuser was right and the accuse was wrong.
The fact that Mr. Dorilik does not have the moral fortitude.
Well, this is very different because every time this person logs on from ASU, our people contract the ISB codes.
We know exactly almost which phone he's logging on from there at the university.
Let me read you the email from Dr. Christensen that was sent to us a couple of days ago when we were going to come on and basically lay this case out before the country then.
He says, I am confused by your statements regarding the Themis IR data and your decision not to release your findings.
This was a week and a half ago.
The data were calibrated by our standard processes in the same way that it's done for the Themis science team.
We were asking questions about what's on the website.
I am not sure why you are suggesting that Noel or anyone else on the Themis team has done anything to alter the data.
Parenthetical statement for me.
Banff had claimed it was his right, since he maintains the website, to alter the data, to screw up the data, to add noise to the data, to scribble on it with crayons if he wanted to.
And that's why we were concerned.
Christensen goes on.
He, Noel, aka Banff, was simply questioning how you have treated the data and how you are validating your methods and processes.
So Christensen is validating that Noel Gorlick is in fact present at Enterprise Mission, is talking to our people, instructing them in what he's been instructing them in in terms of multispectral.
I mean, he has been talking to us through email since I think our first article where he sent us an unsolicited email was back in March after the first press conference.
And so when we had technical questions, for instance, there are two 662 IR bands.
We wondered if there was a misnumbering of the bands on the posted data.
When you go to the Themis site, you have a PNG, you have a GIF, you have a JPEG, or a TIFF you can download.
Four little windows.
Obviously, if you want the best quality, you go for the TIFF because it's uncompressed data.
But there was no way to know when Keith would do that unless someone was following his IP address.
He has a broadband connection, unlike those of us in the desert.
And every time he logs on or goes anywhere, it's the same IP address.
So an expert like Mr. Gorilik in computer processing, who has a nickname BAMF, which means redirecting people to other websites without their knowledge, could easily have tracked Keith's movements.
And when he got to the FEMA site, he zaps him to the image he wanted him to download that night, the real image.
Well, this would be the equivalent of a forgery of an incredible classic done by somebody who could duplicate that classic work and not be detected, perhaps by even an expert.
You know, there are ways in the legal system, Peter and I have been discussing for months now how to bring a case on behalf of the American people so this kind of chicanery and nonsense stops.
You can't do this with impunity.
This is an arrogance if it's a hoax of unimaginable proportions trashing, in principle, the quest to find out the truth about our neighborhood, our heritage, and our future.
Keith, Richard, who would be more likely to do a big DOS attack, huh?
The government or the persons we imagine might have made this up within the government or some stupid bunch of probably pretty smart hackers who set your butt up.
Now, they'd do DOS attacks, but would the government employee do DOS attacks?
Not likely because they're going to get nailed on the source.
We've certainly been quoting them on your show for the last couple of years.
Remember, about a year ago in May of 2001, I came on and I said there was going to be a really important release of data on the face on Mars the next day.
And what's most important for Americans to believe tonight, we have to get the rest of it.
He is adamant, and the people behind him are that we cannot wait one more day for Christensen to publish this data, the rest of the daytime IR, and most crucially, the nighttime IR.
And in the next half hour, I will explain why that will blow this case sky high.
On the one hand, we've got pictures of a city on Mars.
I mean, if you believe they're real, then, you know, you look at it.
I mean, it's a city.
It's L.A., it's New York.
Well, maybe not New York.
It'd be bigger.
But, you know, it's a U.S. city.
And that's image number two.
It's one that startles me, that actually will send chills down your spine.
But then on the other hand, we have as much in we have more intrigue in our other hand than there is red poof dirt on Mars.
I mean, we've got chat rooms and redirect websites where secret pictures were passed and then later denied, and we have other people in chat rooms calling people liars and the rest of it.
And a lot of this done through the internet.
And I'm very, very, very leery of the internet.
Very leery.
I love the internet.
I have a particularly high-speed connection.
Got about T3 here, actually.
So I dearly love it.
We use the hell out of it.
It's a useful tool, but it's also totally subject.
You know, I saw something earlier on CNN that about 40-some percent of what's sent on the to anybody, the average person in email on the internet today is about 40% is spam.
40% is spam.
And I can tell you personally, because I recognize the viruses so easily, that of the email I get every day, and that would be, you know, thousands of emails, two or three thousand typically, very typically, 10% of them are viruses.
Fully 10% of emails I'm getting are viruses.
Now, I don't use a virus protection program.
I occasionally scan with one.
I don't need it.
They're so recognizable.
My beautiful whitewife.bat.
Japanese girl versus Playboy.
It goes on and on.
With EXEs, B-A-T-P-I-Fs, every kind of imaginable access they can try to get to your machine to give you a virus.
There's a million of them out there, and they're very easy to spot.
The internet is just rife with people who are masquerading, people who are spoofing, people who are using computers to send out spam email.
It's just a wreck, a disaster up there.
And so you've got to measure that in your other hand as you listen to the history of this information so far.
I want to bring the conversation back to something that approaches some science here.
Because I think we're focusing too narrowly on the That notwithstanding, the internal consistency of this data and its match with a completely separate mission mounted from halfway around the planet from the Soviet Union over 10 years ago,
12 years ago, and what they found with a similar instrument has got to be understood.
When you look at the BBC coverage of the Phobos 2 mission to Mars that was laid out in London at the Science Museum with a whole bunch of very prestigious Russian scientists that were allowed to come out to the West and lay out the data before it all disappeared, and I've got the videotape from that program, you see in their imagery essentially identical buried subterranean structures to what we're seeing on this data tonight.
Now their camera was not as sophisticated because it was 10 years ago or more.
It was not in the multi-spectral bands that we now are appreciating, you know, we can look at it, courtesy of Keith Laney and his processes.
Remember, our tidal model of Mars says that you had a thriving civilization and something went radically wrong.
And you had a tidal release.
The planet blows up, oceans slosh, and you basically bury everything in miles of gunk.
And in some places, it will be more preserved than others.
And in some places, the water, instead of cascading down, is a huge tidal wave, a la the scene in Deep Impact.
Remember where the tidal wave rushes over New York?
That would have smashed the things we're seeing down there flat.
This water rose.
And one of the things that I didn't get to earlier in the evening was our model is a little more complicated than just a layer of dust filling these deep canyons with structures.
It's a two-component model.
What we think we're looking at is the city encased in ice with a layer of dust on top.
And the infrared is going through the dust, which is probably relatively thin, through a much thicker layer of ice that basically is the waters of the Martian oceans that rose and flooded this shoreline, because this used to be an ancient shoreline.
So there are conditions under which you can get enormous transparency.
In fact, the U.S. Navy has a great deal of data from the Arctic, you know, from submarines underneath the polarized capsule.
And in fact, we tried to get some of that data from our source, and there was a bit of a tizzy because when we asked for it, some people thought we'd actually been given classified data, and we had a bit of a dust up earlier last week until it was clarified that no one had given us anything that we weren't supposed to have.
So we're looking at every aspect of this, and I want to bring you now back to more data.
Now, our model is that someone took the real data, which has the blocks, has the city, has everything we've talked about tonight, added the noise, vacuumed off the rectilinear geometries after probing some people as to whether they found it.
At the top, we have, in fact, I think I've got it here, we have a section titled, What You Can Do to Help, which basically is a listing of all the email addresses of media, Congress, the White House, talk shows, political shows.
Everybody in this country who's supposed to be out there to help you get to the truth is on that website created for us by people like Bob Williams and several others.
If you want to know the truth about this, you have got to make some noise.
Suppose you have watched the chicanery, the double-dealing, the duplicity, and are just fed up.
And you're one guy in a key position to slip something exquisite out the back door to the folks that you have done your homework on and you think may have an even shot of getting at the truth.
Whereas, in fact, under the cover of that, you have slipped us real data and you are praying that we will know politically and technically what to do with it.
And furthermore, you've aced your bet.
You have gone on in private emails to about six separate imaging people and given them private tutorials in how to work with this data.
Nothing else makes sense.
Enterprise is not that damn important unless there is an exquisite hidden agenda here to get us something we can finally work with.
Now, I admit that we need further and deeper investigation.
One of the key problems with your recommendation, Art, is we are broke.
We cannot afford to hire a private investigator of the high-tech caliber of the people that you're talking about.
We can barely afford computer programs and to keep the lights on.
You know, I have funded Enterprise out of my own pocket for years, putting all the monies from the Monuments of Mars back in, putting any monies I got from television presentations back in, any lecture fees I put back into Enterprise.
If people want to help us get to the bottom, give us some money so we can, in fact, afford to hire the best high-tech investigators on the Internet to get to the bottom of this.
And all you do is send us a check to EnterpriseMission at P.O. Box 3550, Edgewood, New Mexico, 87015.
And we can use the help.
We are at the end of what we can do with the resources we have.
We had major security problems at Enterprise last week.
We had huge amounts of attacks.
We need something like $6,000 worth of equipment just to maintain Enterprise in a secure way so we can present the data, which we give to the country for free.
In other words, if you have a leak, I mean, we've seen this in Washington for years.
What happens in Washington when someone slips a reporter a juicy story?
The guys that don't want the story to be published or to be followed try to do everything to destroy the message, the messenger, to eliminate the paper trail, to make it worthless, to cover it up.
This, to me, looks like a rearguard desperate action on the part of those that don't want you folks out there to know the truth tonight to keep you from finding it out.
I mean, all kinds of accusations have been made against me personally over the years.
I told Keyes as we went into this in the last couple of weeks, I said, you know, when this gets serious, when we get to where we can actually publish, I said, you're going to join a very exclusive fraternity.
You know, people like me who get called every name in the book simply because we want to know the truth.
And if people out there really want to help, tonight is the time to step up to the plate.
We could really use it.
There's a whole battery of things we could do.
We have a legal case we want to mount, you know, under the federal codes and federal district court in Washington, D.C., that can put these people under subpoena, can get witnessed and signed testimony through disclosure and what's the other term I'm looking for?
And we've got an maybe this is why this was done this way, because when you start switching data on official government websites, you know, now you see it, now you don't.
Now it's real, now it's not.
This is the kind of chicanery that demands to be in a court of law, where you have formal proceedings for ascertaining the truth, where if people over there tonight are shredding files and changing computer disks so they can hide their paper trail, somebody is going to blow the whistle.
Somebody is going to tell the truth because when you bring the heat of a potential federal crime, people suddenly get very serious.
All we did, and this comes from my astronomical background, all we did was to take the infrared that Keith had meticulously processed, lay it over the visible light image, and turn up the saturation.
And there is a long-standing precedent in the astronomical world for doing this.
It's called luminance layering.
When you take a picture with a color film, color film is typically very noisy, right?
So what astronomers have done over the years is they would take a very fine-grained, long exposure on like Triax, which was a very fine-grained film, black and white.
That would be your black and white luminance layer.
They would then take three color pictures, red, green, and blue, with color film, or with black and white film with color filters.
They then, in the dark room, would physically composite them one over the other, over the other.
And what happens is that the high-res black and white image translates, modulates the color layers into a color composite that has the colors of the color version and the resolution of the black and white.
So that's what we did.
And because the visible Odyssey image is 18 meters per pixel and the infrared is 100 meters per pixel, we're basically synthesizing an 18 meter color infrared image composite.
And that's when the buildings and LA and the structures that respect the things we see above the dust, like the fort, literally popped out.
And Keith told you, and he'll tell you again, he got shivers looking at this because it has the resonance of being real.
I'd be willing to bet almost anything that this is real data.
And all of this noise, all of this spaghetti, all of this stuff on the wall is a desperate last-minute effort, Art, to keep you and the people who are listening to us right now from really understanding that this finally, after 20 years, is the truth.
And what we need to do is we need to do two or three times.
Maybe his boss found out and he has to do that to save his job.
He put a picture on the website through some friends of ours in Australia of him holding his one-year-old baby.
It's an adorable picture.
Vamp is a father.
Now, can you imagine if he was basically told, look, you shut this down, you turn this off, you solve The problem you created, or else and the or else could go from simply losing his parking space to losing his job to losing something perhaps the most precious of anything in his life.
Love is a little heart and everything It's not a heart and a kiss All the way in front of me I'm a bad guy I'm just thinking Do you like me?
Oh, why can't I get here?
Love is a little heart and everything It's not a heart and a kiss All the way in front of me It's not a heart and everything It's not a heart and everything I'm a real friend in my day.
Cause he was never one time.
Oh, and he was down.
And the reasoning of his latest spring He talked and talked and I heard him say That she had the longest, blackest hair The prettiest green eyes anywhere And the reasoning of his latest spring Though I smiled and tears inside of the burning I wished him loved
him, but he said goodbye He was gone, but still his words kept returning What else was there for me to do with a cry?
Thank you.
Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of My from West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
And the Wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nive.
Richard C. Hoagland is here with something really serious, and with him, Keith Laney from Charlotte, North Carolina, WBT Country.
And, you know, clearly, on the one hand, what we do have, if you'd care to check out image number two, is a city on Mars.
We have a city on Mars.
Now, the other side of the point is there's an awful, there's a hell of a lot of intrigue here on the internet.
People in chat rooms and shadowy figures and innuendo and all the rest of it regarding the way the material arrived and just everything.
It's extremely complicated.
And somebody, Justin in Arizona, says, hey, why are you so skeptical about tonight's topic when I've heard many of your guests with more unbelievable stories?
Number one, Keith, Justin, rather, you should not assume because I listened to somebody without comment or even encourage them to go ahead and make their comment that that equals I buy it.
I'm a fairly skeptical person in most regards.
Now, there are shows we do and shows we do.
We do a lot of different kind of shows here on coast, a lot of them.
And so I treat them differently.
But when you get something like this, with a very serious charge of, and it's a charge of manipulation of images by our own government, our own government lying to us, with specific individuals involved or alleged to be involved over the internet.
And so I have a duty to be skeptical about this and to be very serious about this because no matter which way you look at this, whether you view it as real and hidden or a hoax, a very complex, well-executed hoax, and it could be that.
Either way, it's a big story.
I've got to say that I'm writing a line, and I couldn't tell you which I think it is.
I can tell you I think I'm very suspicious of the internet, and I've got good reason to be.
I've been burned a bunch of times, and I'm sure a lot of you out there have, too.
There's reason for doubt.
And that's why I'm being as I am being tonight.
Richard's been a friend of mine for more years, and I really care to count.
Thank you very much.
And I know certain things about him.
I know that he is legit.
He's really devoted to his work as much as it sounds he is.
I mean, he's a real McCoy in that regard.
But could he be had?
Could somebody there in the government want to come after him and put his butt on the line and embarrass him?
In other words, I guess I just said that I think Richard C. Hoagland is a genuine individual, and I give equal possibilities to all this being real and this being a city on Mars, and an equal possibility to Richard getting hoaxed by somebody, probably within one of our government agencies.
What really turned me on was when Ron and I were having the conversation after literally weeks of going around on this, and I suddenly realized we have a totally separate data set, the MOLA profiler, the laser, which could give us some insight.
And when I looked at that data, I could not believe what I saw because no one had pointed out that at Sidonia we have these extraordinary swings.
I mean, if you go back and look at image number seven, and you look at the profile of this region, it looks to the eye, in those images we've got, you know, of 38, 72, 78, 13, all the usual suspects over the years, looks flat as Kansas, flat as a pancake.
In fact, it's not.
In fact, if you look at that profile, it swings up and down exceeding 3,000 feet, and there isn't a trace of this on the surface.
If you go to that website and in the paper we're preparing, which is the technical preliminary analysis, I will have links to the actual MOLA data so you can go and click on it and look at the sun masses.
The resolution of the FEMAS data is nominally 100 meters.
So it's roughly 3 to 1.
Now, if I was taking a laser over New York in a helicopter and I had some kind of lens where I made it very large, like it was several hundred feet wide, and I tried to do profiles, I wouldn't see the streets, would I?
I would see the tops of buildings averaged with the streets.
Well, whatever's between the structures, we don't even know that this is like an L.A. I mean, think of this as a huge multi-layered warren where you would have crossways and, you know, like there are malls now where you could live eternally inside a mall and never go outside.
And 20 million people out there tonight, I'm sure, would like to know, too.
So if anybody thinks they could get away with this game, it will collapse of its own weight because somebody, look, everybody on this planet who runs an exquisite hoax loves to have their 15 minutes of fame.
The fact that Mr. Gorlick does not want to come on your show and basically say, gotcha, tells me he can't.
And we have some very sharp people at Enterprise who, believe me, they were skeptical when this guy claiming to be Mr. Gorillik of ASU came on and said, I'm here to help.
Listen to me when I tell you, I've seen people on AOL and elsewhere post messages with headers that would be legitimately mine with my name.
There are people who can do that at the snap of a finger, and you would not be able to discern, I promise you, the real art bell from the spoofed art bell.
If he thought this would be a cute way to get something real out to the real world with plausible deniability, I mean, that's why I'm really thinking of him getting the White Hat Award of the Week.
Now, we're going to take it from here.
We're going to find out with a little help from our friends out there if, in fact, this did come from ASU, if it is real data, if it was made up.
In other words, we're going to get to the bottom of this, but we can't do it alone.
Enterprise exists to be your voice and eyes and ears at getting at the truth.
There's another thing we need to think very hard about, Art, and that is this is only the tip, but intended, of the proverbial Sidonia iceberg.
The minute I start putting three people on, I get this weird echo.
So I wanted to give Keith an opportunity to sort of round out between now and the bottom of the hour.
Anything you want to say, Keith?
I mean, you're in the middle of this, obviously, because the images came to you.
And at what point did you contact Richard?
unidentified
After I had processed a few of them and asked about the blocks and not gotten a satisfactory explanation and went and did a little bit of further review into it, I decided, well, let me send this to Richard and see what he thinks about it.
I mean, I had shot, you know, I've been a member of Enterprise Mission community for a long time, and I found little weird things and said, hey, look at this.
Keith, from your point of view, you know, we've laid out these two possible scenarios.
It's real, it's slipped to you.
And we've got the real McCoy here.
And the other is, you know, set up.
What probabilities do you give to the two possibilities?
unidentified
Well, I mean, I'm always after all the NASA people.
Give me something.
Slip me something out the back door.
You know, do something.
I mean, I will harass them and harangue them.
Once I found out Bamp was there, yes, I harassed and haranged him too.
Now, you know, I know I went to the Themis website and downloaded this image.
I've got it in my computer records that I did so.
Okay, I mean, there's no doubt to me that I got this FEMA image.
I mean, and it's the same one.
I thought it was crap.
Whether I was redirected or what, it's no big deal, but I mean, I went to the Themis website and did choose that image and downloaded it.
Now, the fact that I did it on the 25th, now that might have changed something, you know, being that there's a sacred day over this particular issue.
I mean, I started processing these images, and see, there's more to it than just the one image that you see.
Like, if you go to image number one on your site, there's more to it than just those particular colors, because each one of these bands can be ratioed and put in different combinations to show you compositional differences down there.
I mean, you've got to remember, this is a multi-band image.
So, and when I take the other bands and correlate them in the same way, in the same type of combinations that those bands are made out of, that those banded pictures are made out of, they come out with variations.
The colors are in the different places, but still in the same general pattern.
The blocks are different on each one of the banded images, even in black and white.
You can look at them and you can tell that the IR is picking up different, which is different.
So, you know, to me, it's a person at a keyboard somewhere, right?
We don't know who Banff is.
Hold on, everybody.
The images.
They look just like this.
Mountains high, valleys deep.
Except for that troubling city, that urban city.
unidentified
Wow.
The mountains high and the valleys so deep.
Can't give up to me, brother's high.
Don't you give up, baby.
Don't you cry.
Don't you give up to me.
Reach the earth in your mind.
I was lonely then.
I couldn't see.
The nothing to cure.
Don't you cry.
Don't you cry.
Somebody write me too far Technical nations She'll just tell you that you can't In the air of the kind guitar solo She'd love me, give me time for joy.
And she loves to help you out.
And before I tell you, which direction goes, but the hint that you need to do.
Be safe, let us fucking watch the fight.
Walk away for one of the two.
The year of the cat.
To reach art bell in the kingdom of Nye.
From west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
Or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
Either it's legitimate information fed in a very unusual, I don't know, smoke and mirrors way to Richard through Keith.
And we've got a city on Mars.
or it's a big, complex setup.
And I don't know, I can't make that call.
I was asking Keith to try and make that call for me in his own estimation.
And I'll sort of refresh that.
We'll continue and also take some calls coming up shortly.
Stay right where you are.
In the interest of time, I would like to finish with Keith and sort of get a definitive answer from you, Keith.
I mean, as you honestly weigh this in your own head, if you're, you know, I know you're immersed in it, it may be hard to step back from it and assign probabilities of fraud versus, you know, the real McCoy.
unidentified
How would you stack it up?
I would think it was fraud if it were the other way around and I got the crappy image.
The thing about it is, is this image is so good.
The data is all there.
It's so clear.
And you can replicate the results using this image.
Okay, it's not just a one-time thing.
If I take their image or if I take the other version of the image that I have and run it through the same processing, I get completely separate results.
And it's degraded, as you can see in your picture on your site.
That's what gives it to me.
I mean, the politics of it, all that escapes me.
I'm just an image processor, and I looked at the data, and this is the conclusion.
one of the things we wanted to do was to challenge those people who are neutral, who do not have a stake in this game, or, as we used to say, a dog in this fight to go to the web, download the duplicate of the image that Keith got, which is a TIFF file, a full TIFF file.
out of Colorado, and download their software, contact them, get a license to process using the same techniques that Keith used, and let's compare results.
We will publish on Enterprise anybody's results on this data, side by side by side by side.
And my bet is that the professionals are going to say, this is real data.
The problem with that scenario, Art, is if you look at other NASA missions that have comparable technology, as I said, there's a mission in orbit tonight called ASTR, A-S-T-ER, for aerospace thermal imaging.
And they put data on the JPL website.
I have gone and downloaded some of that data to compare side by side with the CEMIS data.
And the original ASTRA data is as good as what Keith has been working with.
It has no noise.
It's crisp.
It's pristine when you decorrelate and stretch it.
It comes out with all the right colors so you can gauge what's down there.
It's not degraded.
It's not crappy stuff.
And what I'm really suspecting is that all the other things we've been seeing from the Themis camera at Mars has been equivalently degraded.
Just so no one in the general public understands what an exquisite instrument is orbiting Mars, taking surveys that we're never supposed to see.
No, but there's a way we can get to the end of this.
And I want to really, before we lose the time here, we've got 20 minutes left, I want to tell people what we can do.
One of the things that I've been urged by my Washington sources is for Americans listening tonight to this program, wondering about this debate, wondering where it's all going to come out, you can have a voice.
You can decide how we solve this.
And one of the ways you decide by how we solve it is to demand the rest of the infrared imaging from Themis all put out right away.
They were supposed to publish, according to their pre-mission rules and mandates, all of the data from the first two months, first month, I'm sorry, by August 18th of this year.
They now have claimed, Banff has claimed, Christian has claimed, Saunders has claimed, that they're not going to be able to publish it until October.
My people, my sources are telling me that the reason they have delayed art, this is extremely serious, flat-out conversation, the reason they're delaying is they are removing the offending artifacts from these images even as we speak.
Richard, what do you think the odds are, just asking here, of getting somebody to officially come on from NASA and either step around these questions in such an obvious way that we know they're lying through their teeth or tell you you're full of crap or whatever it is they're going to do directly.
I mean, it's a very serious issue.
It's very serious.
So why couldn't we get somebody from NASA?
Why wouldn't that be a way to settle it?
Put them here on the air with you with the teeth and just go.
A friend of mine, you know, Gary Le Guerre, who has a radio show on the weekends down in Florida, tried very hard to get Banff to agree to be on his show with me.
He may try to hide tonight and claim that we're all having our last 15 minutes and making accusations from the dark against Keith, who's simply doing his job.
But he does not have the guts to stand up in front of 20 million people and basically say that on the air, does he?
But while we are doing that, while we're doing that, the people out there tonight need to know that the clock is ticking and people are erasing evidence from these pictures, according to my sources in Washington.
And they wanted me to communicate tonight.
It is emphatically important.
It is critically important that we demand all of the nighttime and daytime IR data right away.
Not wait a week, not wait two weeks, not wait ten days, right away like we got this image.
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Once they have time to do to the original data what they have done to this infrared band And posted it as the official version, there's no bringing that pristine data back.
How can asking questions, you know, if we had come on and not given you the history of this image, if we had come on and simply claim we've got it, take it or leave it?
Remember, we're looking at a 20-year cover-up documented by people like Stan McDaniel, myself, and legions of others over the years regarding the issue of is there or was there ever been intelligence on Mars?
This is merely the latest turn of the page.
We now have an exquisite instrument which can give us totally new information, which we believe we have gotten.
But I don't think if I were you, I would have gone to error with this until, for example, I got on the telephone with one of the individuals that you're talking about and had recorded a conversation where he admitted he was so-and-so or so-and-so was Banff or whatever.
In other words, a level of knowledge beyond what was fed to you on the Internet and what came across the Internet, even as email, Richard.
I don't think I'd have gone to error until I talked to one of these individuals.
Well, part of this continuing process is, yes, we will attempt to establish, you know, I mean, ultimately, how do you know that somebody on the phone is the real guy?
And the bottom line is that we have a potential real discovery here that needs resources to follow up, to follow through.
And I have people telling me who I have known for half a decade, who I have met and sat in the same room with and exchanged lots of information, who are connected to the previous Reagan administration and now to this administration, who are telling me this is real data and proceed.
Well, I would like to offer any of the individuals mentioned, a number one, airtime, to come on the air with or without Richard Hoagland being present to air their side of this story.
I think that would be worthy.
There are many who would not come on with you, Richard.
I know that.
But to get to it, I would be willing to have them on without your presence.
You've been on tonight without theirs, though you have asked for it.
I'd be willing to have them on either way and try and get to the bottom of this.
Well, the problem is, since the official project is not publishing any data around any of its images, no ancillary data, no spacecraft look angles, no sun emission, no date, no time, no orbit.
I mean, it's a very uneven playing field here.
You know, it's the old, we're NASA and you're not.
And the only way to write that is for people to go to the website and download all those emails we've put up there of all the major players politically and media-wise in the United States of America.
And we know that's how we got this image in the first place.
When you were on vacation and I was on with George, we did a program before the 24th of July where we basically demanded people go and demand that image.
And lo and behold, within a week or so, we got the image.
And we got nine bands to work with.
It didn't just put us out one image, you know, just one black and white, like they've done for most other places on Mars and the infrared.
They gave us nine bands to work with.
Then folks from ASU show up at Enterprise and tutor our people in how to work with infrared imaging.
It does not take a rocket scientist to say that somebody wanted us to work with this image to find out what was on it.
And they're simply sticking with plausible deniability, football, no fingerprints.
And as we were working through the physics of this, I said, you know, Ron, I'm reaching a tentative conclusion that I think is going to knock your socks off, so you better sit down.
And he says, okay.
I said, the only way I can see realistically for this to be what we're seeing in the daytime is if it's not just being warm by the sun, but if it's intrinsically warm in and of itself.
In other words, these things are warm under there.
Because the technology that we have projected for this level of civilization, hyperdimensional physics allows a technology that's just like the energizer bunny, keeps going and going and going.
And here is the capper.
If we get a nighttime infrared image of Sidonia, if I'm right, then it should look like Los Angeles down there in the dark.
It should be glowing like neon signs up and down Hollywood and vine.
So, Mr. and Mr. American, you have got to help us get this data and get it now.
And the email list and the fax numbers and the phone numbers and all those talk shows and all those politicos and the White House and the Congress and everyone who can be interested in the outcome is on our website tonight.
Just go to EnterpriseMission.com, go down to the slug that says how you can help, and you'll find tons of ways that you can meaningfully help.