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July 10, 2002 - Art Bell

02:54:24

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Douglas Mulhall - Nanotechnology

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33:37

douglas mulhall

01:14:29

linda moulton howe

18:40

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Welcome to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
unidentified		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from July 10th, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert and great American Southwest of the Jewel, good evening, good morning, good afternoon, and welcome to the most listened, largest, all-night radio talk show in the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is called Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		And it's actually Coast to Coast Coast to Coast AM.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Coming up at a moment, Lindemald Howe with updates on Cuba.
		Yes, there's new information on Cuba, and of course, all the crop circles popping up in Europe.
		Actually, not just England, but in Europe.
		And we're in that season right now, hot and heavy.
		Quick news.
		The Dow today fell like a rock, 283.41.
		283 points down to 88.13.50.
		The NASDAQ fell 35.11 or 2.5%.
		Bad news.
		Market's in trouble.
		People don't trust.
		That's what it's all about.
		People don't trust.
		They don't believe anymore.
		And there's another corporation add to the list of those in trouble.
		It's just going to keep going.
		It's going to get worse and worse and worse.
		As a matter of fact, Dick Cheney is being sued.
		Somebody said he did something wrong with regard to a corporation a long time ago.
		Listen, there's been a big find.
		The windblown desert of Chad has opened a new window on early human evolution, a humminate skull that would be six to seven million years old, or at least two million years older than any skull previously discovered is found.
		A stunning find unearthed by Michael Brunett of the University of Poigué in France and his team.
		He said, quote, it's a lot of emotion.
		I have in my hand the beginning of the human lineage.
		I've been looking for 25 years.
		He said the divergence between chimp and human must be even older than we thought.
		Ah, once again, it happens.
		science rethinks as it gets absolutely irrefutable facts in hand.
unidentified		The End Now let's go back to the night of July 10th, 2002, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Art Bell And now from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, she's done many documentaries on the ecology.
		She's been a reporter with me, both on Dreamland and then this program for more years than I think I'd rather think about right now.
		She has many, many credits.
		She's been a science reporter for so long, into so many interesting things, and there are so many interesting things going on in the world right now from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
		Here is Linda Moulton.
		Howe.
		Linda, welcome.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Thanks, Art.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		You know, that was February, I think, of 92 or 93 that you and I started working on Dreamland together.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you for reminding me of that.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was a year ago that I first reported the startling comments made by ocean engineer Paulina Zelitsky in Havana, Cuba, that she had found, quote, possibly a sunken city built in the pre-classic period and populated by an advanced civilization similar to the early Teotihuacan culture of Yucatan.
		And these are quotes from that report a year ago.
		Researchers using sonar equipment have discovered at a depth of about 2,200 feet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One and a half mile roughly.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		That's right, a huge land plateau with clear images of what appears to be urban development partly covered by sand.
		From above, the shapes resemble pyramids, roads, and buildings.
		Unquote.
		Tonight, I have a high-resolution side-scan sonar image and a video frame of a pyramidal structure that Paulina has been studying.
		And they are at my website report at www.earthfiles.com.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bobby Damn, she sent you a video?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		A frame of one of these pyramidal structures.
		Wow.
		And at the top of the earthfiles.com headlines page is a link that will take people directly to this report tonight.
unidentified		Okay.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Now, originally, Paulina had hoped to have a robot on the ocean floor by this summer, but its cost is about $2 million, and it's been an obstacle.
		So far, the National Geographic Society continues to express interest in adding its resources and media production efforts to the exploration, but to date, no official contract has been signed.
		So Paulina and her husband, Paul Weinzweig, have taken on other work to pay bills, and periodically they have sent remote-operated vehicles known as ROVs down to pick up small rocks that lay on the thick sand around these large megalithic stone structures.
		Some of those samples have gone to geologist Dr. Emmanuel Iteralde, who works for Cuba's Natural Museum of Science and History in Havana.
		Since early spring 2002, Dr. Itaralde has studied, side-scanned, sonar images and videotape from the half-mile deep site and has concluded that he cannot assign a completely natural geological explanation for the huge rectangular shaped rocks that stand on a kind of vast white field of deep sand spread over 20 square kilometers.
		He presented some of his research in May at the International Geophysical Meeting in London.
		Now, he is waiting and expects around July 19th for the first analyses of some of the rock samples.
		Until then, he is reserving opinion about the composition of the megalithic structures.
		However, Paulina Zelitsky says they are polished granite, not indigenous to either Cuba or the Yucatan.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Polished granite?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Polished granite.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean as in the pyramids?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, that is yet to be determined.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what's over there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's polished granite in some cases, right?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And you will hear in this upcoming interview where Paulina says that polished granite can be found but not in the Yucatan or Cuba.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		I talked with both Paulina and Dr. Itteraldi this week about their current research and theories about what might have happened off the extreme northwestern Cuba Peninsula.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, here we go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Some think perhaps Atlantis.
unidentified		Samples that we recovered from ocean bottom, just beside our structures, we call them megalithic structures, are granite stone, completely polished with some inquestrations of fossils,
		fossils of organic creatures that normally live on the surface, not on ocean bottom.
		Which is very interesting because it's the evidence that the whole surface sunk to the depth of 700 meters.
		And what we find on ocean bottom is abysmal fractures from which probably the magma and volcanic ash came out.
		And from these fractures we're able to delineate our configuration of the land tank because you can see them clearly.
		Landa tank is very obvious from our engine of the ocean bottom.
		And you can see bays, like harbors.
		And it's all at the depth of 900, 700 meters.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Geologically, does Dr. Itteraldi and the others have any idea volcanically?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Was it one large eruption or a series of eruptions that caused that?
unidentified		A series of eruptions.
		And as he's saying, it is still active.
		It's still active.
		Serious eruptions that produce tectonic movement, major tectonic movement, to such a degree that land is sinking.
		And that was long ago, geologically.
		Now, what happened recently geologically is that land that is joining in this Yucatan island between Yucatan and Cuba.
		They sank recently.
		Also, geologically and botanically, in terms of all organic life, Yucatan and Cuba, this northeast extreme of Cuba, which is peninsula of Guanaita Viva, are completely identical.
		Completely identical.
		It's the same stone, limestone, and the same organic life, and the same botanic and animal representative.
		So it's very obvious that land that was joining, what we found on ocean bottom, that this land that was joining Yugoslavia Cuba.
		But this land was sinking because of the tectonic movement which were occurring very suddenly.
		And of course earthquakes and volcanoes were accompanying these tectonic movements.
		Exonic movement is not something that moves softly.
		It's always accompanied by dramatic volcano and earthquake activity.
		And so what we saw on ocean bottom were the waves and the coastal lines of the islands that suns.
		And we think there were series of islands.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		A series of islands.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And until you discovered these megalithic structures a half mile down, no one had understood that there were a series of volcanic eruptions that caused a large landmass to sink straight down.
unidentified		Correct.
		Yes, yes.
		That's the most fascinating part of it.
		One area between the fractures, not on the fractures, between the fractures, was left undisturbed and just stands flat without fractures.
		And on this area, we can observe those megalithic structures or constructions.
		And they have completely different and independent allineation from geological falls, from a geology of the sunken land, or a geology of island Cuba.
		Completely independent allineation of their own.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		As if they are something that was used to construct but came from someplace else.
unidentified		We don't know yet, but it obviously didn't come from Cuba.
		That's one thing.
		The stone that we recovered from ocean bottom is very polished granite.
		And all of the peninsula, Guanacabibre, that's northeast part of Cuba, all of this peninsula is limestone.
		Very fractured limestone.
		So it's geologically, geologically, it's totally foreign to Cuba.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Totally foreign.
unidentified		It's also foreign, yes.
		But it's also but it's also not known in Yucatan, because Yucatan is also limestone and not granite.
		Granite is somewhere only in the center of Mexico.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And these granite, these polished granite megalithic structures, in the sampling you've been doing so far, they are covered with several feet of volcanic ash.
unidentified		They're covered with several meters.
unidentified		Meters, not feet.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Of volcanic ash.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And it covers the whole several square kilometers that.
unidentified		It covers approximately beautiful, beautiful, flat, clean area.
		Nothing else in this area.
		And it covers approximately 20 square kilometers of this area.
		And so it's flat, completely flat, huge silicon fields, white silicon fields.
		And in the middle of all of that, there are these megalithic structures surfacing.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And this covers 20 square kilometers.
unidentified		Yes, ma'am.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Does Dr. Itoralde and other geologists, do they have a hypothesis about how 20 square kilometers could drop straight down?
unidentified		The whole island sank.
		And the whole thing sank.
		Probably what we think it really happened that Cuba and Yucatan at one time, at one historical time, both joined.
		But little by little, this land was fractured thanks to the ocean bottom.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		What in your own mind is the very next most important thing that you could do to collect some kind of sample from the megalithic structure area?
unidentified		I wouldn't be able to do any serious work without a robot that is working on ocean floor because I need stability in order to be able to make an opening in the massive megalithic structure.
		And we need to make an opening in order to enter.
		Also, National Geographic were interested in investigating this site with submersibles.
		So that might be another good opportunity.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Do the submersibles have the ability to drill into stone?
unidentified		No.
		Submersibles don't.
		They just have ability to observe with human eyes.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Okay, and videotape.
unidentified		Not video camera.
		Yeah, and videotape.
		But all this is done by humans.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And if you can get this robot made and down there that cost about $2 million, you would be able to photograph and the robot would show light so that you could photograph better, but it would also be able to drill into the megalithic structure?
unidentified		Oh, yes.
		I would be able to make openings.
		And to enter inside the structures, what I'm the most interested is to enter inside, because if there are antamarats, they should be inside the structures and not outside the structure.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		If National Geographic can get this funding together, then you might be able to go forward full time and get the robot down there that can both photograph and collect samples.
unidentified		Yes, that's right.
unidentified		And discover a completely new breach in our history.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Today, I was also able to talk with geologist Dr. Emmanuel Itiraldi from the Cuban Museum of Science and Natural History in Havana.
		Dr. Iteraldi presented a scientific paper about the deepwater megalithic structures a couple of months ago in London at the May 2002 International Geophysical Meeting.
		Dr. Idiraldi.
unidentified		I have been working with the data provided by Paoline already for three months and I have been observing the sizecan sonar images, also the video images,
		plus some samples recovered from different places within the area where the megalithic stones are, and also from an area located to the south of this region.
		My impression is first that the structures that are in the megalithic area at this 600 to 700 meter depth, I cannot explain these structures by any geological means right now.
		So I am not sure that I can find a geological explanation for the origin of these structures.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So the structures, just so it's unclear, the structures don't fit into any natural explanation currently.
unidentified		Yeah, this is that geologically, I mean naturally, I cannot give a logical explanation now.
unidentified		So I am not telling that they are artificial, but what I say is that right now I don't have a good explanation as to the origin by natural cause of these structures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so the mystery deepens.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, it really is one in which we are finally getting data in physical evidence.
		He said for me to call him by next Thursday or Friday for the first lab reports on some of the rocks that Paulina Zeliski has been able to get up with the ROV.
		That is going to be very interesting.
		But as he pointed out to me, until they are truly able to drill into one of these rectangular, almost carved-like structures, he says he can't say definitely that he will pass off and that the composition is granite or something else.
		He really wants to know what the drilling is.
		And he also made a very interesting point that for the last 50,000 years, they know that the island of Cuba has been under the water and has risen back up, gone back under the water, risen back up in this very seismic, active area.
		And he thinks that perhaps what they're also on the track of is that an island or islands or the end of the peninsula might have been shaken loose or started to fall apart maybe as long as 50,000 years ago and has slowly, over millennia, been settling down to this very deep half-mile depth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, all right, we're going to break here at the bottom of the hour, and then I'm going to hit you with a theory from a guest the other night that might explain all of this.
		Might explain all of this.
		I'm Art Bell from the High Desert.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
		Stay right there.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks tonight an oncour presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 10th, 2002.
		Thank you.
		Thank you.
		All your love, all your love, all your love, all your love, all your love and love and love of a new dream never holding me to be on the Lord.
		Yeah.
		Yeah, don't you love her?
		Don't you love her as we'd walk without the door?
		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time, tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 10th, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the mystery off the coast of Cuba definitely deepens.
		Polished granite, structures not indigenous to the area of Cuba, and it all sank a half mile below the ocean.
		How long ago?
		Well, I do have a thought about that.
unidentified		I want this thing to be on the mark.
		Let's go back to the night of July 10, 2002, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here is Linda Moulton Howe.
		And Linda, I had a man on the other night named John Cogan, a graduate of the University of Washington, who has a theory that there was a bull-eyed 10,500 years ago that traversed the skies over North America from northwest to southeast, passing over South Carolina, leaving, identifying marks in the geology of South Carolina.
		And then he gave us a lat longitude in the Atlantic where he thinks this thing came down.
		I was just thinking this would have passed just roughly over that area or a little north of that area on that trajectory.
		Interesting.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, I did a story about the Carolina, that's what they call them, the Carolina Bays.
		Earlier this, I guess it was really toward the end of 2001, and I show some of the satellite maps where these craters are all over North and South Carolina.
		And apparently there are one or two or three craters that extend out into the Atlantic.
		A satellite photograph shows one.
		And that is a story at EarthFiles.com.
		I think it's in the December 1st or the December 15th, 2001 Earthfiles report.
		You can see quite a bit about those Carolina bays.
		And the issue, as in so much of this, is when exactly did it happen?
		There's nobody who disputes that something scattered all of these crater-like depressions that have filled up with water in a lot of places and that there are these craters going out into the Atlantic.
		But when exactly did it happen?
		And Dr. Aderalde has done some research into the Yucatan legends and mythologies along with Paulina Zelitsky.
		And it is very true that the Mayans and some of the other natives have long had a story about how their ancestors lived on an island off to the west that vanished beneath the waves.
		And that's the way they've talked about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The part I don't get is not indigenous to the area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That really deepens the mystery significantly.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Especially coming from Dr. Itaraldi.
		he's an extremely respected geologist.
		He works for the Museum of Natural History in Havana, and he may be teaching or making some presentations in a university in the United States in the next few months.
		And he feels that whatever these structures are, that when he said in that excerpt that he can't say definitely that they're artificial, but that he has so far not come up with any logical explanation for how these very large and with a rectangular structure for the most part, but with a definite pyramidal shape, at least in the one that they did get on one of the ROV videotapes.
		And everybody would like so much to get back down there with better light and with more videotape.
		And they've tried this summer, but it is not easy.
		They're not able to do this full time.
		The equipment challenge is huge.
		It is down a half mile.
		The water is extremely cold, and I understand that the current can be very rapid there.
		And that's why they need this robot down there.
		And they have said that National Geographic really would like to see if they can pull together the resources to accelerate this investigation process.
		And at earthfiles.com, at the bottom of my report tonight, I do have some contact information at the National Geographic Society for anybody who may be working in or represents or knows somebody, an individual,
		or an organization who might want to contact National Geographic about how to put together funding for what could be, as Paulina Zelitsky said, turning truly a new leaf, a new page in our history because something extraordinary may be down there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Something extraordinary is also happening in Europe.
		We're well into the crop circle season and it's a doozy so far.
		Anything to report?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
		New formations.
		Talked with researchers in Holland today, in Germany today, in England today.
		England is up to 22 formations.
		Holland is up to six.
		Germany is up to 32, now has more than England in Germany.
		Very complicated story there.
		But, you know, one of the sub-themes has been the terrible weather in England.
		It has been raining and raining and it's been cold.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sounds like Texas.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And Charles Mallet stressed today that not only did this new formation that was found yesterday afternoon, and he went out into it, and this is again at West Overton in Wiltshire, where that incredible double spiral, the coiled serpent, the two coiled serpents going in opposite directions were found.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's actually beautiful.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it is.
		So this is in the same field area of West Overton.
		And this new formation, I've got a photograph at the top of my EarthFiles.com headlines page tonight from Charles.
		He got it to me late this afternoon.
		And it's a poll shot.
		We will be getting, hopefully, tomorrow morning good aerials of what it looks like from the air, but you can get a feel of it on the ground with Charles' poll shot.
		And he stressed that this had to have come in what was rain, and there was no mud anywhere that he could find.
		But the most extraordinary of all is what happened at Stonehenge on July 4th.
		And this, to many people who have been investigating crop formations going back at the end of the 80s, this amazing formation that came down in young wheat and spans about 750 feet, placed very specifically between three burial mounds, one end of a field, as if this is the reason why it is there, came also in rain.
		It is incredible when you look at it.
		You look at the aerials of this extraordinary formation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they know for sure it was formed in rain.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		It was formed in rain.
		It had been raining for approximately four days before this formation.
		And I have a wonderful insight into what this is like from Charles Mallet, who is a co-owner of the Silent Circle Cafe in Wiltshire now and has been in maybe 200, 300 formations in the last decade.
		And he and his wife, afraid that the farmer was going to cut this down because the farmer was so angry, they got into the field at 6 o'clock in the morning on Friday, July 5th.
		Charles Mallet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here we go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen carefully.
unidentified		When we saw it, we were like, quick Jesus, you know, that is something really amazing there in the field.
		You can actually see Stonehenge in a picture.
		It is adjacent and across to A303 and a couple of fields back, half a mile maybe, up a dirt track.
		So what we were looking at was like a formation it was 11 tram lines wide.
		Huge.
		We've done a rough calculation and it's between 720 and 750 feet.
		Approximately, but I mean from a purely aesthetic point of view, it is absolutely stunning.
		And um I would say something absolutely very interesting.
		In fact we only um determined this ourselves like 15 minutes ago sitting around our kitchen table, which is um do you remember the formation from Hackpen Hill 1999 Linda?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
unidentified		Hackpen Hill 1999 happened on the 4th of July.
		So essentially what we're looking at is an aesthetically amazing elaboration on the Hackpen Hill formation.
		I mean the geometry is essentially the same at the centre.
		So we're looking at almost like the completing of the task.
		It's as if it's like an opened up version of the same thing, okay, where Hackpen Hill 99 turned in on itself and kind of finished in a dead end, a little um path which is folded into the main body of the design.
		This one is as if the ends have been tweaked, pulled out to produce um huge three-dimensional ribbons playing out across the field, you know, for going on for 800 feet or so, which is absolutely stunning.
		The air actually looks like it's flapping in the wind, you know, it's really effective.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		What were your very first impressions as you moved along the soil and in the plant?
unidentified		For the preceding few days, at least three or four days, it's been, I mean the weather, a typical English summer has been absolutely dismal.
		It's been raining every day essentially and practically every night.
		So the conditions out there on the ground are horrific, wet, boggy, muddy, you know, terrible conditions.
		So we stepped into the formation and obviously all this mud was dropping off our boots everywhere and leaving obvious and really ugly traces, you know, clearly, clearly apparent.
		Two people had just stepped into the formation.
		And apart from this, okay, apart from one other person that we know that has visited the formation, as we made our way into the formation, there was no other mud.
		The whole formation was absolutely clean.
		And, you know, I can assure you when I say clean, I mean this was clean.
		It was smooth, consistent.
		No footprints, no mud, none of that.
		You know, it was as if the thing had just arrived there and then and we had stepped in.
		So that was pretty impressive and fairly amazing in itself.
		But essentially the whole formation looks as if it's started in the middle as a swirl and just splayed out in six elaborate directions to create something pretty spectacular which is absolutely beyond our comprehension in terms of construction.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Anything unusual in terms of the plants themselves?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Did you see anything in the nodes or the soil or the seeds or anything?
unidentified		What would be expected of a genuine formation was present, i.e.
		expansion and expulsion in the nodes, primarily in the growth nodes on the plants, which is consistent with the unwork of Levingut.
		So actually walk within that is quite staggering.
		I would challenge anybody to walk in such an event and really conclude that two old farms come out of the pub and made that.
		Not a chance.
		I mean just its positioning alone.
		Adjacent to Stonehenge and as you would have seen from the aerial shot actually sat amongst three megalithic round barrows, burial mounds essentially.
		And I mean it it could have actually been positioned out in the main body of the field much, much easier than it it I mean just positioning that huge formation in amongst such a tight area is quite a feat of engineering in itself.
		And I mean you know why would it happen amongst three ancient burial mounds?
		You know, so I mean it is clearly relating the entire formation to the land in some way, you know.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Right, and what might the relationship be between those burial mounds, that particular field near Stonehenge, and the field at Hackpen Hill?
unidentified		You know, I wish I knew.
		But I would say that, I mean, typically this area, in the area in very close proximity, has received, you know, unbelievably sophisticated formations in the past.
		You'll probably remember 1996.
		Julius said highly sophisticated mathematical design of an order, you know, barely comprehensible to the av, you know, the average person is just creating that single curve on a piece of paper is difficult, and alone doing it six or seven hundred feet across a wheat field.
		So this current formation has happened in very close proximity to that site where that formation, I think it's actually one field out from that particular location, but this time it seems to have chosen to lay itself down amongst the ancient sites as if to say this is part of the land as well as part of everything else.
		It almost seems like a connection thing with the earth.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And does anybody archaeologically know what was buried inside of those particular round barrows?
unidentified		I don't know, but it was fashionable in the 16th or 17th century for the English gentry to actually excavate these mounds in the hope of finding treasure and more often than not they would find a corpse or a skeleton in a fetal position and a few personal treasures.
		So I don't know, I mean the positioning of these sites, the positioning of these mounds in relation to the larger landscape, I feel is probably far more significant than just having somewhere to bury a body.
		You know, it's like the positioning of Silbury Hill, you know, that's regarded as a burial mound even though it's never been proven to be so.
		I'm sure that's there for a very good reason.
		And the way the crop circles appear in connection with these sites makes me think that this is very much an earth and sky deal.
		You know, it is not just aliens coming here and dropping big patterns in cornfields.
		It's very much related to the human consciousness, the earth, and something else.
		I'm just not quite sure what that something else is yet, but it's quite possibly an interdimensional communication.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and Gerald Hawkins, the mathematician, is convinced that it has to do with those that have passed on of a particular intellect coming back to say or do something that it would be other dimensional from our point of view, but from its point of view, would be interacting with the Earth with great knowledge about our past.
unidentified		It's entirely possible that these are almost reflections of our past, if you will.
unidentified		It's as if we're coming full circle, you know, and the crop circles are kind of appearing because of that almost, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If only we could decipher all of this between burial mounds, interdimensional possibly, from those who once were, possibly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What a mystery.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and isn't it ironic that this season of more than 30 formations in Germany, in addition to what is happening in England and Holland, almost as if something underscoring all of you who think it's two old gentlemen down in southern England,
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		sorry, wrong, it's a global phenomena, that all of this should be happening just in the same time that a Hollywood movie is about to come out using crop formations as a kind of background for a study in fear that has nothing to do with the real crop formation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's called signs.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, with Mel Gibson, and it'll be a Friday night flick, and it will have a background of fear, and it seems to me just ironic and odd that the phenomena itself seems extraordinarily beautiful and very complex this year, and in some ways doesn't deserve to be a backdrop for fear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, Linda, but you know, have you ever watched a hydrogen bomb explode like the bikini to a little bach, perhaps?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's beautiful in a horrific way.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		See, this phenomenon is beautiful in a genuine way, and I think it's trying to provoke something that is profound.
		And for people like Charles and others who have been going out into the field, and today, after a series that have been in England that have been sort of remarkable, a few have been remarkable this year, talking with Andreas Mueller down in Baden-Württemberg, one of the three hotspots in Germany now.
		Baden-Württemberg is in the southwest.
		Kassel is in sort of the north central, and a very mysterious place called the Isle of Rügen off of the northeastern coast of Germany, the largest island in Germany.
		They all three have very interesting Neolithic past as well as tied into very ancient, we'll call it Hermetic knowledge, having to do with sacred geometries.
		These are three areas that are rich with that kind of knowledge and rich with burial mounds.
		And what also do these three areas in Germany have in common, like England?
		Lots of limestone.
		The Isle of Rügen, like England, is almost solid limestone.
		It has these great white cliffs.
		What is it about perhaps magnetic field lines and interaction with something like limestone that perhaps sets up some sort of confluence of energies that are making it possible or are why this phenomena is focusing over and over and over again in some of the same areas in these countries?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, we just had one in Oregon, but again, simple pedestrian compared to that which now appearing in Europe.
		We're running out of time, Linda.
		Do you want to give out some contact info?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Well, my email for questions, comments on these reports and anything going on in your area you think I should know about, contact me at earthfiles at earthfiles.com.
		Again, that's earthfiles at earthfiles.com.
		And come and visit my website for in-depth reports about these subjects I think that are important and are often not covered on the 6 o'clock news.
		www.earthfiles.com.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Linda, as always, thank you so much.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, have a good night.
		She's right about that.
		So often not covered on the 6 o'clock news, huh?
		Never covered on the 6 o'clock news.
		The mystery off Cuba really deepens.
		And so did the crop circus.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 2002.
		You cry like a bird is riding, who will be her lover?
		While you're like you've never seen, woman, a king but queen.
		What is there as you promised you, heaven?
		Extinction.
		Once upon a time, once when you were live, I remember your sky.
		Reflected in your life.
		And I wonder where you were.
		I wonder if you think about me.
		Once upon a time, beyond the wildest dreams You can see the future of the world I wonder what you're morning.
		That means the brand new day.
		There are still way.
		I wonder if you can.
		I wonder if you still remember.
		Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight's program originally aired July 10th, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You all remember the story about Pandora's Box, right?
		Well, coming up, we have Pandora's Box.
		We're going to be talking about nanotechnology.
		And it seems like science fiction.
		Problem?
		It isn't.
		It's happening now.
		Douglas Mulhall's work examines the transformative role of nanotechnology, robotics, genetics, and artificial intelligence.
		Then he'll explain how we might use such tools to cope with natural disasters and climate changes.
		He's one of the first journalists to describe the field of nanoecology.
		That would be the interface between nanotechnology and ecology.
		He's also co-authored work that depicts nanobacteria, an infectious bacterium whose discovery has stunned healthcare professionals, may lead to cures for diseases like arterial sclerosis.
		His experience in communications began with an advanced degree in journalism, progressed to documentary filmmaking, diversified into management, and he co-authored the first commercial television network in the new Republic of the Ukraine.
		Wow.
		He's produced a broad range of technology training manuals, contributed to media such as The Futurist.
		He has recently begun co-authoring Micro Communications for Environmental Sensing.
		He has in-depth experience with the technology environment interface.
		He was managing director of the Hamburg Environmental Institute, a scientific assessment organization, co-founded the first Brazilian institute to be devoted exclusively to water recycling.
		His hands-on work with natural disaster preparedness came from co-designing, building, and operating water recycling and flood control facilities in Brazil, China and Brazil, in cooperation with the European Commission and multinational companies.
		He was a contributing author to the book Green Business.
		He co-authored many related works, including the first green technology concept for the 2000 World Exposition, some of the first intelligent product guidelines for industry and guide to tropical wastewater recycling.
		Up next, Pandora's Box.
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		Explore your universe with Coast2Coast AM and George Norrie.
		I remember when I was 15 talking to our teachers about why I believed there were many Earth-like planets in the universe.
		I mean, it doesn't take rocket science to realize that we're not alone in the universe.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And our government knows it.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		They've been keeping it a secret for 60 years, and it seems to me that it's way past time to have the truth about our real relationship with other beings and intelligences in the universe.
unidentified		Now let's go back to the night of July 10th, 2002, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, here now is Douglas Mohal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Douglas, welcome to the program.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Nice to be here, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have done a number of shows on nanotechnology with various guests at various times, but what you've got to offer tonight looks like it's kind of going in a...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you agree with that?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Well, nanotechnology has actually become the building block of a lot of these other technologies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let us define nanotechnology first for those who might be new to it.
		What is nanotechnology?
		Is it real?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		That's actually a real good place to start, Art, because there actually is no commonly accepted definition for nanotechnology, and the word has been roundly abused and misused as of late in all of the hype that people have heard about nanotech.
		So if you want to just start at the basics, nanoscale technology is the science and the art of manipulating atoms at the scale of one billionth of a meter, which is called a nanometer.
		And that's why it's called nanotechnology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how would you manipulate, even see, but then manipulate anything that small?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Well, that has actually been part of the challenge in the last 10 years, is how to actually move these things around.
		And the way they started doing it was with something called a scanning tunneling microscope that actually at the tip of it was just a few atoms wide and was able to sense through an electronic field individual atoms.
		And this actually allowed it initially through repulsion to move those atoms around and the technology then progressed from there to being actually able to physically take an atom and push it into place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you do that?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Well there are several different ways to do it.
		But the principal way that was used first was basically through a magnetic field that was used at the end of a scanning tunneling microscope that allowed them to physically push atoms around on a surface.
		And this was first done by the IBM labs actually in Zurich, Switzerland.
		And people may recall many years ago seeing the word IBM spelled out in xenon atoms.
		And it was on the front page of a lot of the newspapers many, many years ago.
		And that was the beginning of nanoscale technology.
		Now since then, a lot of other technologies related to these scanning tunneling microscopes have developed that are a lot more sophisticated, that allow us to move these atoms around a lot more easily.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, you're rearranging atomic structure.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		You are in some ways rearranging atomic structure.
		And in that sense, it's just like chemistry, for example, in which you rearrange atomic structure chemically.
		But the fundamental importance of nanotechnology is this.
		It's being able to manipulate individual atoms.
		Now, that is known as nanoscale technology, but there is another much more profound technology that is known as molecular nanotechnology.
		And this was really first defined by a Stanford University graduate, Dr. Eric Drexler, who is generally referred to as the father of nanotechnology.
		And he identified three prerequisites for molecular nanotechnology.
		The first one is being able to push these little things around, as I just mentioned.
		The second one is constructing little machines out of those atoms that can actually replicate themselves.
unidentified		And just a good example of that is DNA.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		DNA can replicate itself.
		So the second prerequisite for molecular nanotechnology is actually a mechanical or a biological machine being able to make copies of itself.
		The third one...
		Many living organisms do that, but actually there's a fine difference here, and this brings us to the third part, and that is assembly.
		And that is these little self-replicating mechanisms being able to put themselves together into larger machines that assemble themselves.
		And that is exactly, again, what DNA does with the human body.
		It instructs different cells to organize themselves in different ways to create a human being or any other type of living entity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But they're imperfect machines because of a number of things from our point of view.
		I mean, we get disease, we die, we have mortality.
		So from our point of view, in some ways, it's an imperfect process.
		Absolutely.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		And the argument goes that a more exact way of doing it is electronic and mechanical.
		So most people, when they hear about nanotechnology today, they think, oh, it's biology.
		But actually, this part of it is much more directed towards computing and electronics and mechanical replication.
		So although I use DNA as an example, that would be, in some ways, the ultimate of what nanotechnologists are trying to do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		At the moment, what they're just trying to do is to get these little machines to replicate themselves, and they haven't even gotten to the point of assembly.
		And in fact, there are a number of very well-known scientists who still don't believe that assembly is possible mechanically and electronically due to the laws of physics.
		But many, many years ago, a very famous physicist who is now well known as being really the forefather of nanotechnology said, and he has not been contradicted yet, that according to the basic laws of physics, there is nothing to prevent us from building molecular scale machines.
		And so far, he has really been proven right all along the road.
		So at the moment, we really have not encountered significant barriers to moving forward.
		And the interesting thing is, is that in the last 12 months, there has been a very significant jump in the speed at which nanotechnology is developing.
		I'll just give you one example.
		A year ago, the group that won the Nobel Prize for discovering carbon nanotubes and nanorods, which are basically these little lengths of carbon that are just a few nanometers wide and have extreme strength.
		They can be up to 30 times stronger than steel, for example.
		Extremely high conducting capacities and extremely good computing applications.
		Although they have been discovered, the discoverer said there is no way that we're going to be able to, in the foreseeable future, put these into commercial production because they're too difficult to produce.
		Well, this year, one year after that statement was made, a Japanese company is building a factory to produce 120 tons a year of the things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		That's how quickly the technology is moving along.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right.
		Let's try and get a sense of what this technology could mean.
		You gave as perhaps a perfect example our DNA structure.
		And our DNA structure, again, from our point of view, is filled with flaws.
		If you were able to take a nanobiological combination little machine and send it in there to, I don't know, get rid of cancer.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, let's start with the medical side.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		And let's talk about what a lot of the some of the products that are advertised on your program talk about, and that is combating aging and the diseases of aging.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		One of the major causes of aging is calcification.
		That is calcium forming in parts of the body where it's not supposed to.
		And that can include everything from arterial sclerosis, that is heart disease, where you get these calcium buildups in the body and then in reaction to those calcium buildups, the body forms its own layer over those buildups to try and fence them off, thereby creating these blockages in arteries and veins.
		Also in kidney stones, also in cataracts, for example, these diseases all have a common denominator and that is calcification.
		Now in the early 1990s two scientists in Finland were investigating why some of their cell cultures were dying and through really a combination as usual of new technology and sheer luck they discovered a nano-sized bacteria that is hundreds of times smaller than conventional bacteria and is smaller than most viruses.
		And they called it nanobacteria.
		This bacteria is extremely unusual because it is one of the only known pathogens to secrete calcium, to disguise itself.
		And so it appears, and I have to emphasize here that the clinical studies have not yet been completed on this, but there is a lot of anecdotal evidence.
		It appears that these nanobacteria are present in our bloodstream and secrete this calcium that then attaches itself to various parts of our body and causes these diseases.
		Now, the reason that we haven't found it until now is because, first of all, we weren't looking for bacteria that were that small.
		It was never considered reasonable that a living thing, these are the smallest living things known to humanity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		The second thing is they were covered with calcium and no one thought that they were alive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That makes sense.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Calcium deposits were always thought to have been formed by other processes that go on in the body.
		And additional to that, even though you have perhaps, for example, a 20% calcium deposit, the other 80% of a blockage in an artery actually consists not of the calcium itself, but of the soft fiber cap that is created by the human immune system to wall off that intruder.
		And that's what is really responsible for creating a lot of these problems.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, suppose we were to be able to prevent the creation of this buildup, this calcium buildup.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		That's why I wanted to start with this topic, because a lot of...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wouldn't there be possible implications beyond, for example, the fact that we don't get clogged arteries as we did?
		In other words, there might be a natural reason for that calcification that we don't know about yet.
		Could that be?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		The natural reason appears to be that nanobacteria has been in the environment for some time.
		It's also been discovered, for example, in volcanic vents in Iceland recently by a researcher in Regensburg in Germany.
		And the DNA has actually been decoded on this, and it appears to be similar in many ways to this type of nanobacteria that is found in the bloodstream, which is known as nanobacterium sanguinium.
		Now, but you hit the nail on the head because what I haven't said yet, and what is going to sound quite remarkable, and I have to emphasize that this is anecdotal evidence at this point, although a paper was just published on it in June of this year.
		It appears as though a way has been found to strip the calcium coating off of these nanobacteria and get rid of them and reverse this calcification process that is going on in parts of the human body.
		I know it sounds remarkable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it does, but what I'm asking is, okay, so that might prevent a number of aging diseases of the type we just talked about, but could there be underlying a natural process that if we were to prevent this calcification, something else would show up that wouldn't be so good?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		I think that you have an absolutely good point there, and that's why I emphasize that we have just begun this journey of discovery into nanobacteria.
		The fascinating thing about this is that after hundreds and hundreds of years of scientific exploration of the human body, it's only been in the last 10 that we've discovered this completely new genus of bacteria that seems to underlie all of these other biological processes that are going on in our body.
		So the answer is yes, we need to do a lot more research into this area because we're just beginning to uncover this.
		The anecdotal evidence is that patients that have been given a combination of drugs to both strip off the calcium from the nanobacteria and then attack the nanobacteria with a very simple antibiotic have shown,
		in many cases, remarkable advances in the reduction of the clogging of the arteries, in the reduction of kidney stones, and in the reduction of cataracts.
		And there is a company in Florida that is leading this research.
		They're known as Nanoback Labs.
		They can be found at nanobacklabs.com.
		And there is a great deal of information about nanobacteria on that site.
		I would say it's probably one of the most authoritative sites, just to give listeners a general background on nanobacteria.
		What is nanobacteria?
		What does it do?
		But the question that you've brought up is indeed a good one and indicates why we need to do a lot more research into this area.
		Yes, nanobacteria causes these problems, but is it beneficial in some ways?
		We don't know yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Hold on, Douglas.
		We are at the bottom of the hour.
		We'll be right back.
		More nanotechnology.
		This is Coast.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premiere Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 2002.
		For so long.
		Listen to the stranger stories.
		Wondering where it all went wrong.
		For so long.
		For so long.
		So long.
		Hold on, hold on, hold on.
		Do what you got.
		Thank you.
		The white bird in a golden cage on a winter's day in the rain.
		The white bird in a golden cage alone The leaves blow across the long black road to the darkened sky in its rage.
		But the white bird just sits in her cage unknown.
		Whitebird must fly, she will die.
		Whitebird must fly, she will die.
		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Premiere Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an oncore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 10th, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, what we're really talking about here, ultimately, through all the science, is immortality.
		The ability to perhaps live forever.
		And toward that end, I've got a pretty interesting question for Douglas coming up.
unidentified		Sounds of a sound
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		I argue with people about disclosure time and time again.
		I've told them governments are not going to come out willingly to tell us it's going to happen by a mistake, it's going to happen by a whistleblower, but it's not going to be an organized thing.
		Governments won't do that.
		And the reason why they won't do it is because they do not want us to know.
		They think that they'll lose control of us if we know.
		If you actually truly believed that we were being visited by extraterrestrials and you had categorical proof that it was happening, do you think you would listen to some of the bull that government throws out all the time?
		Absolutely not.
		You'd look toward the heavens, you'd say there's got to be a better way, and you would start doing your own thing.
		And you would forget all about government control and everything else.
		So the bottom line is government will never, ever disclose the true facts of UFOs.
		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 2002.
		Coast to Coast AM You know, computers do screw up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's an example in the last hour.
		I mean, they really do mess up.
		You would think, and you would hope, and you would imagine, that a computer, you know, a nice Pentium 4 processor would perform precisely as instructed.
		You would think that, wouldn't you?
		And 99.999% of the time, you would be right.
		And most of the mistakes that a computer would exhibit would be at the, you know, cockpit error, they call it, right?
		At the hand of the human.
		But that's incorrect.
		Computers do occasionally screw up on their own.
		I mean, they simply do.
		Blue screen of death.
		And so when we're talking about this Pandora's box of nanotechnology, and as we mate it with biology, some pretty interesting things could conceivably occur.
		And here's what I want to ask you, Douglas.
		There are some scientists now who say, they're speculating that human evolution has essentially halted.
		That the old maxim of the strong survive and the weak die, and so we continue to enhance the gene pool and the strong genes predominate and we progress, we have evolution in that manner.
		But in modern America, for example, we've changed that.
		We keep people alive past the time when they ought to be alive, perhaps.
		We take the weak who would have otherwise died and we maintain them and keep them alive.
		And I'm not saying all that's wrong.
		I'm just saying that it may have slowed or even halted the process of evolution.
		And I wonder if nanotechnology, mated with biology, puts the process of evolution in this century, or beginning in this century, or just about now, into our own hands.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Or the hands of an artificially intelligent machine that is either part of us or one of our creations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		So, yes, it's an excellent question, Art, and here's the way that some people are answering it.
		A few weeks ago, Stephen Jay Gould, who is one of the world's best-known evolutionary biologists, died, and he was famous for shocking the Darwinian world by saying that evolution actually occurs in a series of catastrophic jumps rather than in a nice gradual evolutionary way.
		And I think that he, and he also argues that species tend to become optimized, and just as they reach an optimal state, then you see these catastrophic jumps that either cause that species to mutate or leave an opening for other species that are more able to survive in the changed environment to take over.
		Witness the death of the dinosaurs and the ascendancy of mammals, for example.
		Now, alongside Gould's argument is a very interesting argument that's being posed by Ray Kurzweil, who I know that you know.
		And just for your listeners, Ray Kurzweil is one of the inventors of scanning technology.
		When you put a document on a scanner, for example, he has brought a lot of voice recognition technology to the marketplace, and he's won a lot of scientific awards doing it.
		Ray Kurzweil argues that human technology is merely the continuation of nature's processes by other means, that nature is actually using us to develop technologies which will concentrate the use of information even further than it has been in past.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Some might regard that as a sort of egotistical position to take.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, except that when you combine Gould's position about it's called punctuated equilibrium, where you have these catastrophic jumps, and Kurzweil's position, you could come to the conclusion that actually we are in the process of creating the next catastrophic jump with our technology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's exactly where I was going, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The next catastrophic jump could be by our own hand.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Could be by our own hand.
		And the real question is, are we going to enhance ourselves as Homo sapiens, or are we going to allow our machines to carry on by themselves?
		There are a number of technologists who argue today that within the next 20 to 40 years, and I don't want to put a time span on it because that's always dangerous, but within our lifetimes, the ability to process information is proceeding at such a logarithmic rate, in other words, it's not 1, 2, 3, 4, it's 2, 4, 8, 16, etc.
		that our machines currently are about as smart as a spider.
		But at this rate of progress, the ability to reach the computing capacity of the human mind will probably be reached sometime, they say, around the year 2030 or so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		2030.
unidentified		So in other words, it won't just stop there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It'll keep going.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		It'll keep going.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the very next leap after 2030, if that data is roughly accurate, the very next leap would be smarter than human.
		And then from that point on, it would be very much smarter than human.
		So then the obvious question is, are we simply preparing the evolution of the machine?
		In other words, humans will eventually be...
		Mm.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		That's the question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I wonder, and don't you, how that process actually would occur, where human beings become superfluous.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and the point is this.
		What I have been researching and investigating in this book is what are the possible futures?
		Because that is only one possible future.
		Another possible future is what you've written about, for example, in the coming global superstorm, and that is that for one reason or another, our climate becomes destabilized to the point where our technological and industrial base starts to move backwards.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm sure you look very carefully at this since you're in partially that business.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, do you think that our climate presently is in the process of being destabilized?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Sir, your question this way.
		The last 10 years has shown, without a doubt, that over the past 100,000 years, the Earth's climate has undergone some very severe and sudden shifts without human intervention.
		That's important because regardless of whether or not we are causing a shift in the climate, it is clear from the historical record, which I'll explain in a little more detail later, that these shifts happen as a natural process and they can happen sometimes very quickly.
		For example, Richard Alley wrote a book called Two Mile Time Machine in which he went to Greenland and dug down two miles into the ice to get a record of the climate changes that went on.
		And what he found was that about at the end of the last ice age, the climate didn't just gradually change.
		It flipped in a period of about 7 to 15 years.
		Now concurrent with that, there have been a number of records, dozens and dozens of locations around the world have been located.
		And I'll just give you another example, through dendrochronology, which is the study of tree rings.
		And there's a scientist by the name of Mike Bailey who has done investigation of tree rings in very old trees that are thousands of years old.
		What he discovered was that in 536 AD, trees around the northern hemisphere just stopped growing.
		They completely, they just virtually stopped growing for a period of two or three years.
		And there's been a lot of controversy over what happened, but there is no doubt from the other sediment and ice core records that there was a very severe change in the climate during that period.
		Now, these changes obviously were not caused by humans.
		So these records suggest, and there is a group of scientists now who are arguing in the climate change community, that regardless of whether or not we are causing climate change, regardless of whether the climate is warming prior to a sudden cooling again or any of these alternatives, the key thing that we need to focus on is getting ready to adapt to it rather than arguing about is it happening, is it not happening?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, do I agree with that?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you know, like not, oh, how can we prevent it?
		We don't know how to prevent it yet, and our models are a long way off from doing that.
		Although, you know, there are a lot of environmental scientists who would argue that there are certain things such as CO2 reductions that could be done.
		But there are also a lot of factors that mitigate against that, which I can explain later.
		So there's this very small group of scientists.
		There are some at Environment Canada, oddly enough, who work with the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you in Canada?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I forgot to ask.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Right now I'm on a little island in the middle of the Gulf Islands about 100 meters away from the U.S. border, so I'm kind of sitting on the border.
unidentified		I'll be darned, all right?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		And the other group is actually based in the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration two scientists, actually Roger Pilke and David Sarowitz wrote an article in the Atlantic magazine just a few years ago arguing they called it breaking the global warming gridlock.
		And they basically argue, hey, let's stop spending so much money on trying to predict what's going to happen and let's start spending a little more money on getting ready to adapt.
		And that brings us back to how can we use these technologies that are emerging now, what I call the grain technologies, genetics, robotics, artificial intelligence, and nanotechnology, to adapt to these extreme environments.
		And it doesn't just have to be climate change.
		It can also be surviving a hurricane off of Florida or surviving an earthquake in Los Angeles or surviving a tornado in the Midwest.
		We still don't have the tools to do this.
		And these grain technologies for the first time are giving us a realistic possibility to do that.
		And that is really exciting and positive.
		And in some ways, can help to offset some of the dangers and downsides and Pandora box aspects of the technologies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Imagine for me how nanotechnology in combination with some sort of biological aspect, I don't know, would, for example, go to work.
		Could you create a machine or machines that would self-replicate and then go to work on climate modification?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		That is, number one, a relatively long way off.
		And number two, probably I would start in another place.
		And I can give you an example that was actually just announced in June.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Please do.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		And on your show, there's been a lot of discussion.
		And I applaud your show constantly bringing this up about why do we have an energy crisis?
		Why are we still depending on fossil fuels in the 21st century?
		And that was brought up on your show again last night.
		And there have been a lot of explanations brought up as to why, but one of them, of course, is the resistance of vested interests who want to see fossil fuels continue.
		Now, let's have a look at what I talked about earlier, these little carbon nanorods and nanotubes.
		Last month, it was announced that a team at the University of California at Berkeley has created solar cells made of these little nanorods and embedded them in plastic.
		Now, the important thing about this is it means, in a nutshell, that for the first time, we may be able to spray paint surfaces with solar cells.
		So even if their efficiency is relatively low, which it still is because this discovery has just been made, you can paint such large surfaces.
		And with nanotechnology, the surfaces can communicate with each other, so you don't need the wiring.
		It doesn't have to be nearly as complicated as it is today.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but the output has to be somewhere.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Well, the output can actually be ubiquitous.
		It can go in many different directions because you actually have a flat sheet that is capable of putting the electricity out through a grid and directed in different directions.
		And the reason for that is because at the same time that you have these solar cells painted on, because of nanoscale computing, you can actually put the computing capacity right in those solar cells to direct the energy to the grid.
		Or to, I'll just give you an example, if you paint a building with solar cells, there's no reason why that the energy from those solar cells just can't be used to run everything in the building.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm trying to picture in my mind how the energy transfers specifically from the painted building, and I understand that aspect of it, to some sort of grid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, how does that transference occur?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		How do you finally get the way that solar cells work today?
		You have these, everyone has seen these solar panels consisting of these silicone wafers.
		All you're basically doing, although I don't want to oversimplify it, is shrinking those things down by about a thousand-fold.
		The principles of how you transmit the energy from one cell to the other into the grid basically remain the same.
		It's just happening at a lot smaller level so that you can put these things on surfaces that don't have to be inflexible solar wafers.
		And the problem right now is that most solar cells, although some of the newer ones don't have this constraint, but most solar cells have to go on a flat surface.
		And that's a real problem because you have to put them on these panels and mount them on roofs and there's costs of infrastructure and everything else.
		We're talking about solar cells that are a thousand times thinner than the cells that exist today and therefore can be just put onto, for example, a road surface.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I get that picture.
		Roads, houses, whatever you would paint.
		It wouldn't matter.
		What I don't understand is where are the two wires that emerge from some point in the totality of that structure that carry the current that does the job you want it to do.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Theoretically, you could have thousands of wires coming out, and the computer network that is embedded in the cells would determine which direction the current goes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Aye, aye, aye.
		All right.
		Hold on, Douglas.
		We're here at the top of the hour.
		Well, paint the world red, huh?
		Or something?
		That energy would come virtually from everything painted, and that computers would decide when to send it to your washer, dryer, refrigerator, that kind of thing.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 2002.
		You know it don't come easy.
		You know it don't come easy.
		But to me, you want to do the blues, and you know it don't come easy to do.
		You don't have to shout, only if I'm out.
		You don't have to shout, only if I'm out.
		You don't have to shout, only if I'm out.
		You don't have to shout, only if I'm out.
		You don't have to shout, only if I'm out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		With Douglas Mulhall, we'll continue to talk about the little things.
		The little things.
		You know, like immortality.
		The human race perhaps being entirely replaced by machines.
		Or aided by machines.
		It's kind of hard right now at this junction to know where it's going.
		That's certainly one possibility.
		Stay right where you are.
unidentified		Stay right where you are.
		Streamlink.
		the audio subscription service of Coast to Coast AM has a new name Coast Insider You'll still get all the same great features for the same low price the package includes podcasting which automatically downloads shows for you and the iPhone app you'll also get our amazing download library of three full years of shows that's over a thousand shows for you to collect and enjoy if you're a fan of coast you won't want to be without coast insider visit coasttocoastam.com to sign up now let's go back to
		the night of July 10, 2002, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I want to return for a second to the possibility of machines actually being the next evolutionary step.
		How do you imagine, Douglas, that that might occur?
		How could humans eventually be supplanted?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		what scenario do you imagine well there's a very basic and interesting graph that has been done by hans moravec who is the director of the robotics center at carnegie mellon uh university and He tracks the development of information processing in millions of instructions per second.
		And that goes from the year 1900 through until today.
		And of course, in the year 1900, we weren't anywhere near doing millions of instructions per second, so we were actually down to the instructions per hour of information.
		But while he tracks this up through the invention of manual calculators, electronic calculators, through to the computing that we have today, he clearly shows that there is a logarithmic growth, especially in relationship to the cost of the ability to process this information.
		So we're not just seeing a linear growth of our ability to, our machine's ability to process information, but rather a logarithmic growth, which means that right now it's going straight off the scale.
		Now, if that is the case, as I said a little earlier, it looks like sometime by the year around 2030, these machines will at least have the computing capability to rival the computing capacity of the human brain.
		Now, the question is, you know, how...
		Minus, well, it depends because, and that's something that really has to do with how such intelligence might evolve.
		And there's a retired computer scientist at UCLA, his name is Werner Winge, or Winge, as some people pronounce it, who has actually talked exactly about this, is how superior intelligence might arise.
		And what he says basically is that it could arise in several ways.
		The first one is it could actually come about spontaneously through networks.
		That the big advantage that computers have, that humans don't have, is that they can communicate with each other in networks.
		This means that you can have enormous computing power over thousands and thousands of square miles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you mean like the Internet?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Like the Internet, but you can have a very powerful supercomputer in Tokyo talking to one in Beijing and Washington and everywhere else.
		And even now we have thousands and thousands of computers that are linked this way.
		So one way that superintelligence, in other words, a computer that is aware of its own existence, this is the real first measure of superior intelligence, one way that that might arise is simply by accident, spontaneously, where the computing power gets strong enough that these networks are actually able to develop enough power to say, I am, therefore I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you would be developing, in essence, so many neural connections, just like our brain has neural connections, everything talking to everything, that it would evolve at some unknown point, and we just really wouldn't know, would we?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it would suddenly, suddenly become aware.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, for example, the supercomputer at the NSA might ask its operator, why am I spying on people?
unidentified		Yeah.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		But that's only one of two or three possible ways.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		The second one, which has to do with human beings, is that we may actually be able to enhance our own intelligence internally, either biologically through biomedical enhancements, or by attaching our own neural passages to mechanized and electronic neural pathways.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I recently interviewed a professor in England who's doing exactly that.
		I'm sure you read about it.
		Or did you not?
		He's been attaching computers to the neural network in his wrist, actually.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		In his arm, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In his arm, yeah.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		He's had this operation.
		Well, and you know, Art, there's a superb example.
		In the last three years, artificial retinas have been implanted into macular degeneration patients.
		And the reason I mention this is because it's another good example of, you know, when we have this fear of this Pandora's box that we may be opening up, we also have to look at how we can do things for people that actually indicate positive results that don't make people so afraid of these technologies.
		And artificial retinas are a good example because the prime cause of blindness in seniors today is macular degeneration.
		And a group called Optobionics in the United States succeeded to put a chip with about a thousand tiny little computers on it in the back of the retina and attach it to the optical nerve.
		So what happens is that the light comes in through the lens, is interpreted by these thousand or so computers on a chip that is just sitting on the back of your eye, and those interpret the signal and send it directly through the optical nerve to the brain.
		And these people have been able to actually see where they could not see before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They begin to see.
		Well, take Rush Limbaugh, the cochlear implant.
		He can hear where he could not hear previously.
		These are amazing things.
		There's absolutely no question about it.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		And these are examples where we are becoming transhuman or advanced humans, enhanced humans, all of these terms that are applied.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		And it is the flip side of being taken over by your machines.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe, maybe not.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Maybe and maybe not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe as that aspect progresses, we finally become so integrated with machines that we are machines.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Well, also, you have to start talking about what is the definition of a species.
		Because I'll give you an example.
		When some of these machines start to use DNA replication to create replicas of themselves, is that a new species?
		How do you define that?
		It becomes quite complex in terms of the definition of species.
		So it could be that what we will see is some sort of explosion of different superintelligent species, some of them being enhanced humans, some of them being enhanced machines, and some of them being combinations thereof.
		So we won't just have one form of higher intelligence anymore, but in fact we may have three or five or dozens or hundreds that go on to create quite a diverse society here on Earth and that allows us to populate the solar system in ways that currently we would not have thought to be imaginable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		You know, all of this is incredible, and I'm well aware of this ongoing group of sciences, I guess we would call them.
		However, all of these companies, and this may be out of your field entirely, but these companies that are doing these things have absolutely been getting slammed, hammered, destroyed.
		They've been mostly on the NASDAQ.
		The company is doing these incredible developments.
		And they took this giant rise, and boy, the world was in front of us.
		Technology was going to be the white horse riding into the future for the good old US of A. And right now, as you watch, yesterday was a perfect example.
		The NASDAQ, which was up there around $5,000 or over $5,000, was at $13,000 or another.
		Took another hard hit.
		I mean, these technology companies are getting murdered.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		And the interesting thing is, is that the greatest advances take place in the worst of times.
		If you look at the 1930s, that was when television was developed.
		And what I see happening is actually a replay of that right now, because despite the tech investing implosion, government support for science has increased via nanotechnology initiatives.
		In fact, the largest single increase in basic science funding in the last 25 years occurred last year with the funding of the National Nanotechnology Initiative.
		And it is not alone.
		The state of California has, of course, just built the nanosciences facility at University of Santa Barbara and UCLA.
		And about seven other states have developed their own initiatives.
		And the United States is far from alone.
		Japan has been pouring several billion dollars into nanotechnology initiatives, as has the European Commission.
		And for the first time, really, since possibly World War II, the Europeans and the Americans have actually entered, their science institutions have entered into a joint venture to develop nanotechnology.
		And this is virtually unprecedented because for many years they've been regarded as competing with each other.
		But what has happened now in the scientific field is that governments have begun to realize that this genie is out of the bottle and that there's an international network of scientists that are developing it.
		And so they've said, okay, let's recognize that, which of course has large implications for national security, because the whole concept of nanotechnology being confined to certain institutions in the United States is breaking down very quickly because of the international cooperation.
		And it's also interesting that DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency in the United States, is one of the principal funders of nanotechnology and the grain technologies, again, genetics, robotics, artificial intelligence, and nanotechnology that I mentioned before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So why is the private sector in effect rejecting this revolution while the government, and we need to be concerned about our government always, is embracing it?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, behind the meltdown in the tech sector, the nanotechnology startup firms are not suffering for what is called angel funding or for venture capital.
		There is a lot of venture capital going in to these startup companies.
		And that's the interesting point.
		While you're reading about these huge disasters, there's a small but very rapidly growing group of startup companies that are receiving a lot of venture capital funding.
		And in fact, Eric Drexler and the Foresight Institute, which are based in San Francisco and it's foresight.org, who are real leaders in the field of looking at the social impacts of nanotechnology, have clearly identified that one of the concerns is that nanotechnology will be overblown, will have another bubble, and then there will be this disheartening of investors.
		And they're warning about it right now.
		But I think there is a danger of that happening, yes.
		But the hard fact of the matter is that every country on earth with any science funding is putting major money into these grain technologies.
		And that's why I don't think it's going to be like the Internet.
		It's a much more profound and integrated development of which the Internet is playing a very important part despite all of the problems that they're having with their companies.
unidentified		Okay, can I ask you about a gray area of all this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
		All right.
		Computers can make mistakes.
		Humans, programming computers, can make mistakes, perhaps more frequently.
		But when you're talking about making machines at the molecular level that replicate themselves, you've got to be talking at least about the possibility of one of the machines getting out of control.
		I'm bringing up the topic of gray goo.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Grey goo.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gray goo.
		Gray area.
		Now, it doesn't seem so outlandish, really.
		I mean, all you're telling me...
		Yes, yes.
		Well, you want to explain to everybody what gray goo is?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Grey goo is simply a machine getting out of hand and treating every carbon source as food, including us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Using everything in its path to replicate.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Using everything in its path to replicate and ultimately converting everything on Earth to gray goo.
		And it was brought up as long as 15 years ago by Eric Drexler in his books that he has so with such great foresight written about nanotechnology for which he was roundly criticized for so many years and now of course is being proven right.
		So yes, and there's been a huge discussion about it.
		For example, Bill Joy, who is the founder of the UNIX language and a co-founder of Sun Microsystems, has made a very public and very helpful argument about the dangers associated with this.
		He wrote a piece in Wired magazine that you know about why the future doesn't need us.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Help me out here.
		Suppose a scientist develops this self-replicating machine.
		He drops the test tube on the floor.
		The Grey Goo begins.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Theoretically, what would be the progressive speed of the Grey Goo as it progressed?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Theoretically it could be logarithmic and some people have argued that you could consume the world within a matter of weeks.
		Yes, at the theoretical level.
		And I emphasize the word theoretical.
		Because at the practical level, other nanotechnologists such as Robert Freitas, who specializes in nanomedicine and nanobiology, has written a very convincing paper that argues that this will be the same as happens in biological systems.
		That in fact, if you get a gray goo monster out there, you're also going to have a biological reaction to it.
		And you'll have, in fact, environmental resistance, just as you have environmental resistance to overpopulation by all sorts of species, where you get this tremendous bloom, for example, an algae bloom, and then everything dies off because the local environment won't support it.
		So the counter argument to the gray goo argument is that our biological systems are a lot more sophisticated than we might give them credit for, and that the possibility of a gray goo monster getting completely out of hand is in fact a lot lower than it was initially thought to be.
		So that's the counter argument.
		Where the truth lies remains to be seen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Remains to be seen.
		Well, I think we know that in the deep dark recesses of government level four labs, I mean, they can design things that, for example, viruses, that could not be stopped if they were let loose.
		I mean, they would go around the world like Grey Goo, killing biological entities by the gazillions.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and I think that's why we need to come back to the issue of artificial intelligence.
		And I just want to give you an example of where we're at right now and by so doing indicate what a possible response to this problem might be.
		Okay.
		New scientists, I just have an article from them.
		They've been covering the issue of stock market investing using something known as genetic programming.
		Now genetic programming really has nothing to do with genetics.
		It has to do with giving a self-directing program to a computer so the computer can actually make decisions on its own.
		And this method, the computer basically runs through trial and error design decisions on a certain problem until it reaches an optimal result.
		And it's already been used, for example, to design thermostats that are much more efficient than their human designers have been able to reach.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But put simply, it would do your investing for you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It would make decisions about your money, right?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		It does already.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, hold on.
		We're at the bottom of the hour here.
		Well, computers making decisions on investment capital.
unidentified		Hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Couldn't do a lot worse than we've done so far, right?
		Might be all right to have one of those machines.
		If you're the only one that has, of course, as soon as they're out, everybody's going to have one of them, right?
		Then it's going to be the battle of the machines, and he who has the smartest machine will be the richest and have all the gold, right?
		I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premiere Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 2002.
		Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 2002.
		Took a look around there with a wind blow.
		With a little girl in a Hollywood bunker low.
		Are you an older little lady in the city tonight?
		Are you not a no city tonight?
		City of night, city of night.
		It is night!
		Woo!
		Oh!
		All the times have come
		Thank you.
		Thank you.
		Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight's program originally aired July 10th, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I cannot Substantiate this.
		I've got a couple of reports, and so I'm going to just give it to you, and we'll see where it goes.
		I want more information on this.
		Reports late Tuesday or early Wednesday of a strange pencil-shaped craft that crashed near Henrietta, Oklahoma.
		Nothing on local news, only on local radio.
		Said it shook the ground several miles away for over 30 seconds upon impact.
		If you get this, see if you can follow up.
		I heard it on KYIS 80, make that 98.9 FM radio.
		And I've got another report, so I don't know if there's anything more to this, if it's a real report, but some cylindrical kind of object crashing somewhere near Henrietta, Oklahoma.
		Any assistance on all this would be appreciated.
		Back to our guest, Douglas Maul, in a moment.
unidentified		Now let's go back to the night of July 10th, 2002, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
unidentified		Art Bell Once again, into the night with Douglas Moll.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Douglas, you know, you mentioned earlier extreme phenomena like hurricanes, like tornadoes, like earthquakes.
		How might there be any future nanotechnological application toward helping out these kinds of disasters?
		I mean, what could possibly be done?
		They're so extreme.
		What approach could even be used?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		One of your callers last night said, you know, there's nothing we can do about meteorites, and that's the common wisdom these days.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		There's nothing we could do if an asteroid, you know, there's been some talk about, you know, trying to bomb them with nukes and all of this, but we know that won't work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If it's big enough, forget it.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		The concept is molecular disassembly.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Just as we talk about DNA-type machines assembling things, you can also disassemble things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn it into grey goo.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, you can turn it into resources, not just gray goo.
		You can convert one type of molecule into another.
		And the example that I give in the book, that as far as I know, this has not been considered by any of the experts who have talked about how we should deal with near-Earth objects, is if we can develop molecular assembly and disassembly, we have in our hands the possibility, and this was clearly demonstrated when the NER satellite landed on Eros last year.
		We can deposit a package of molecular disassemblers that can turn an asteroid into a factory and convert it into resources, or at the very worst, small projectiles that will burn up in Earth's atmosphere instead of causing us a lot of trouble.
		And again, with the exponential replication rates of molecular assemblers in theory, we had the possibility to intercept these asteroids at a much closer range than the current 10-year deflection scenario that has been touted for so many years now.
		So we may be able to intercept one that's just entering the solar system, for example, and by the time it reaches Earth, it can either be put into orbit as resources to be brought in in a controlled way, or simply burn up in the atmosphere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Douglas, before we do that, we're going to have to learn how to see them, because the one that missed us just a couple weeks ago, we didn't even notice that it had just barely missed us until two days after it.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		And the reason for that, Art, is that it's still too expensive to put thousands and thousands of small satellites into space.
		Carbon nanotubes may allow us to do that in several ways.
		The first one is that because carbon nanotubes are up to 30 times stronger than steel, NASA, who I know is not the favorite of a lot of your guests on the show, but NASA and a number of other space organizations have started to do the engineering feasibility studies on building a space elevator or a space cable, which I know you've discussed before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, there's a new story about that out of Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's going to be a conference up in Seattle on this space elevator.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Now, what is driving that is the discovery and fabrication of nanotubes that have this tremendous structural strength.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In the story, it says, the idea for this elevator, which is really a narrow ribbon of carbon, is the work of Brad Edwards.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Used to work as a scientist for Los Alamos.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Now, so that's option A, is you can, then you can bring thousands of tons of materials up from the equator into geosynchronous orbit and shoot them out into space so that they can be our eyes to search in ways that we couldn't even conceive now because of the cost of launching so many vehicles out into the distant solar system where we have trouble launching one or two a year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But again, Douglas, isn't it possible that our evolutionary leaps have been produced by these every now and then big rocks that slam into Earth?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely correct.
		That's absolutely correct.
		And not only that, but that actually brings up the next issue, and that is, you know, for many years, the environmental sciences have always described Earth as a closed ecosystem.
		That is, it's closed off and it's separate from space.
		What science is showing us, and again, I just catalog some of the discoveries in the book that describe what is happening, but they are basically concluding that the Earth is not a closed ecosystem, that it in fact is very open to the solar system and open to space, and I could just give a few examples.
		Magnetic field variations have clearly made us vulnerable to mutations caused by the solar wind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Asteroids, water from comets has quite often been theorized as filling the oceans and very recently a lot of evidence has emerged to support that theory and we are still being bombarded by water containing and ice containing meteorites every day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		And most of that is in the form of micrometeorites that no one detects.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		90% of all the material that comes here we never see it shooting across the sky.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Too small.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		The moon's gravity has always been there and drives our tides and is one of the major environmental impacts on Earth today.
		Not only that, but the Earth's atmosphere expels a certain amount of gases out into space with the variation in the Earth's magnetic field, which not many people are aware of, but we actually expel some of our atmosphere as well.
		Not to mention that there's uncountable trillions and trillions of neutrinos every moment penetrating us and everything on Earth.
		And finally, you have the influence of the planets, as you mentioned earlier, Jupiter, for example, hauling in and deflecting asteroids and comets either into Earth's path or out of Earth's path.
		So these scientific discoveries of the last 10 years have really shown that Earth is not a closed system.
		And the idea of it being a closed system has, I think, given us a very narrow view of our relationship with the rest of the solar system and the galaxy, and has contributed to this concept of limited resources,
		when, in fact, with the sciences that we're developing, and I want to emphasize that I am by no means ascribed to science solving everything, I want to be clear on that, but with the sciences that we're developing, we may have the potential to bring resources from asteroids to Earth, which will increase the in and out flow of materials and energy to and from this planet.
		So we are really entering into a phase of discovering that Earth is not a closed system, that it's an open ecosystem, and this has fundamental implications for the whole concept of environmentalism and what it means.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well the World Wildlife Federation the other day issued an interesting report that said that based on current trends and usage of petrochemicals and all the rest of it, with what they can see and document,
		and they give quite a few examples, that by the year 2050, humans had better have at least two more planets, good friendly planets, to migrate to, because our planet will be about done.
		Now, what you're talking about would argue with that from a scientific point of view, I would suppose, the year 2050.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Well, Ian Burton is also quoted in that article, and Dr. Burton is from this adaptation group of scientists that I was speaking about earlier who basically say, hey, you know, we better stop worrying about who's causing this problem and start learning to adapt to it.
		Burton says in that same article, all things being equal, but we don't know that all things are going to be equal because a lot of things could change.
		And that's what I call the elephant in the room of environmentalism.
		In fact, I think there's a herd of elephants in the room of environmentalism right now, and they're going to come to the fore sometime after this 10-year anniversary Earth summit that's taking place in Johannesburg this year after the, remember 10 years ago they had this big Earth conference, the Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro, where all the world leaders came and said that they were going to now defend the planet.
		But since then, there's been a whole league of scientific discoveries that in some ways support what the World Wildlife Federation report is saying.
		There's no question about there is this risk.
		But alongside that, we need to consider that we have a hope.
		And the convergence of these molecular scale technologies, and I can just give you an example because we talked about Grey Goo.
		But these technologies are going to be able to very quickly convert one resource to another.
		So for example, if you're in the desert, you may be able to have a molecular assembler that pulls enough oxygen out of the air to be able to manufacture water.
		Now imagine if you have massive water manufacturing going on in the desertified regions of the world and what impact that would have on our ecology.
		What we may be faced with, Art, and again, And that's part of the problem.
		So clearly we're going to need an international regime to govern that.
		But the key point is we may be heading for overabundance rather than scarcity.
		Our molecular machines may in the next generation give us the capacity to massively, cheaply manufacture basic products and basic things such as water in very large quantities which will have enormous environmental impacts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or anything for that matter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, you could instruct at the nanotechnological level some sort of machine to construct a computer, which it would do, and then another computer, and you'd have a little computer factory, right?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and the problem that I have, having worked in the environmental sciences and with scientists for the last the better part of my working life, is that I came to the conclusion some years ago that the environmental movement is not paying enough attention to this.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		We need to not only look at the potential threats as the environmental movement is now waking up to of these grain technologies, but also what is the potential that they have for solving some of the problems that we have faced with the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But maybe their concern is, Douglas, that it won't come soon enough.
		I mean, for example, when I was a child, I was told by all the science fiction writers and even the legit scientists that by the time I'm the age I am now, I'd have robots.
		And they would be doing most of the daily drudgery type work for me.
		They'd be everywhere.
		They'd be in your house, cleaning your house.
		And none of that came true.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, a lot of it did come true.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		I'll give an example.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't have one.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, you know, I'll give you an example is Sony's robot, the pet robot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's all I do.
		Yeah, I know.
		I've seen it.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		And they've just come on the market.
		And you have to forgive these guys for being out by 10 or 20 years.
		But there is one beautiful example.
		The Wall Street Journal, when we came to the millennium, talked about bad predictions.
		And they quoted Isaac Asimov, who said that at the turn of the millennium, we would be manufacturing factories, solar factories that would be manufacturing energy for our use.
		And they said, gee, that was wrong.
		Well, actually, it was right.
		There is a solar factory.
		It's up there in space, and it's being used to fuel the space station.
		So the way that our robots are working for us may not have been exactly the way that we envisaged them.
		But if you look at, for example, the computerized systems that are running our economy right now, these are very close to the types of service robots that people were talking about, but they're not in exactly the same form as they were predicted to be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if they missed it by 20 or 30 years, you know, in other words, it seems to me you've got to be well-grounded enough to see what's going on around you with regard to our ecology and not depend on the fact that by the year 2050, let's say, nanotechnology will be so well developed, the machines will be so good that they're going to save us from otherwise what's going to occur by about that year.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		I totally agree with you.
		I think that there's a very but there's also a very big danger that we will, by being fearful of these technologies, delay or kill off some of the ones that actually could help us a lot.
		And so what we need to do, especially what the environmental sciences need to do, is go into a crash course to understand what are the implications of these technologies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, now let me take you back to where I began in this half hour.
		We talked about, for example, a tornado.
		How might nanotechnology, combined with anything, have any effect on the conditions that produce a tornado?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, if you look at a hurricane, a tornado, and an earthquake, it's always the same argument.
		It's that these things don't kill people, buildings do.
		That's what all the disaster experts say.
		You know, if a tornado doesn't kill someone, the building does when it falls apart.
		Now, the advantage of a nanotube reinforced building, and we talked about this earlier in terms of its strength and the possibilities we have to construct, for example, a space cable up into space, is that you could paint a thin, super strong skin on all of the existing buildings so we wouldn't have to build new buildings all over the place.
		And you could reinforce our existing structures, especially what usually happens in a tornado or a hurricane is that the windows blow out and that then destabilizes the rest of the superstructure.
unidentified		That's right.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		So if you can have a transparent, super strong nanofiber reinforced coating on our windows, for example, and on the rest of the structure that effectively act as a mesh to hold it together, which you can do now, you can build reinforced concrete structures.
		It's just that the cost is too great.
		We have the technologies to prevent destruction from tornadoes and earthquakes and volcanoes and hurricanes.
		It's just that it costs too much.
		And the key thing that these nanoscale structural technologies may be able to do is to reduce the cost of protecting these structures.
		And so, realistically speaking, hurricane evacuations could be a thing of the past.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You would simply go into the buildings that would be strong enough to withstand whatever would be thrown at them.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
		And it could be most buildings because if you have self-assembling nanoscale materials, their construction costs are very, very low.
		It's the impacts on the cost of construction that is going to be one of the revolutionary impacts of nanoscale technology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In that world, who makes the money?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, that's a very good question.
		That is really an open question.
		I think the people who are really going to control the situation and make the money are the software engineers, because it's all going to be software.
		Software determines, in order to build a molecular machine, you have to give it software instructions, and that's what DNA does.
		DNA issues software instructions in the form of chemicals to other organisms to construct themselves in certain ways.
		And we are developing similar types of software that will instruct these types of materials to self-assemble.
		Therefore, and we'll be able to send this material over the Internet.
		So, for example, you'll have a desktop fabricator on your desk here.
		And if you want to produce a toy for your child.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just like Star Trek.
unidentified		Exactly.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		The replicators that they talk about in Star Trek.
		And we have the enabling mechanisms to do it.
		We'll need super broadband that is much more powerful than it is today.
		And we'll need much more powerful computers, but they are coming along.
		It's more a question of when rather than if.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then the money would be in the hands of those who write the software enabling this.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and that is why the whole issue of that you mentioned earlier, why do computers sometimes not work properly, a lot of it has to do with intellectual property.
		Why does everyone have Windows?
		All of the arguments about how strong the control is over software today.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Douglas, we're at a breakpoint.
		Hold on.
		We'll come back to that after the news.
		I'm Art Bell.
		Douglas Mahal is my guest.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 10th, 2002.
		Gave me a word, words for you all.
		Join in the wild dream.
		I never thought I'd go home.
		But it's time to let me let me ride by the wind roll down in a spin.
		I gave you love.
		I thought that we had made it to the top.
		I gave you all.
		I have to deal.
		Why didn't it have to stop?
		You blowed it all down by telling me your lies without a reason why.
		to blow me lost my heart You've blown it all down.
		Our love has been too far.
		We could have touched the time.
		Your glory locked out high.
		Oh, my love, my love.
		You're listening to Ark Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an oncore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 10th, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, is it a brave, new, exciting world ahead of us with nanotechnology?
		Or the frightening, possible end of the world?
		I don't know.
		Both are, no doubt, possibilities.
		If you have questions for my guest, Douglas Mahal, then now would be a good time to get on the phone and propose your question.
		we'll get into that uh...
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		I remember when I was 15 talking to our teachers about why I believed there were many Earth-like planets in the universe.
		I mean, it doesn't take rocket science to realize that we're not alone in the universe.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And our government knows it.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		They've been keeping it a secret for 60 years, and it seems to me that it's way past time to have the truth about our real relationship with other beings and intelligences in the universe.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premiere Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 2002.
		Coast to Coast AM All right, back now to Douglas Mahal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And in a moment, we'll begin to take some calls for Douglas.
		A lot of people are intensely curious about this coming emerging technology.
		You talk about a collision of futures.
		And is that collision the one we've already really discussed, the collision between the possibility of ecological disaster and the possibility of some science like this saving our tales?
		What do you mean by a collision of futures?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we have talked about it, and that is to say that in my book, I'm very clear that we don't face just one future.
		There are many potential futures that we face, and they are racing towards each other.
		One is this tremendous convergence of technologies that some people call the singularity, beyond which it becomes impossible to predict the future.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, wait a minute.
		Singularity.
		What do you mean by that?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Well, the singularity is touted by some scientists as the point at which technology converges so quickly that it becomes impossible to predict the future.
		And some of them claim that we are rapidly approaching this point because of the logarithmic development of information technology that I mentioned earlier.
		So that is one potential future.
		The other potential future has to do with what you have talked about and written about quite frequently, and that is not worrying so much about what we're doing to nature, but what nature might do to us.
		And that we get thrown back.
		And there's a whole group, Nick Bostrom at Yale University has produced a list of possibilities, about 15 of them, that show what could throw us backwards.
		So it is this race between these two trends that will determine which way we go.
		And that's why I always emphasize that.
		And just before I go on with this, I wanted to say that one of the things I try and do in the book is give people a clear piece of information on where they can find the information on each of these topics, because we're just touching on some very vast territory.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and we even really talked about your book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is the name of your book?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		It's called Our Molecular Future.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How nanotechnology, robotics, genetics, and artificial intelligence will transform our world.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
		And we have the website by the same name, which is www.ourmolecularfuture.com.
		And on the website, there is a links page that gives people a link to a lot of these areas.
		Some of the areas, because there are so many, there are thousands and thousands and thousands of websites on this.
		So we have tried to pick ones that will give people a proper guide.
		And also in the book itself, rather than referring to a bunch of obscure scientific papers that no one can really understand, what I did was I went another step and went to science magazines such as the New Scientist or the science division of the New York Times and referred to those websites so that people can refer from the book through to websites that they can actually understand.
		And we spent a lot of time on that.
		We did more than 700 endnotes so that for every chapter you can go and look and check a lot of these web pages to educate yourself instead of just having to go to a bunch of scientific papers that most people wouldn't understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Douglas, I'm going to lay a hot potato in your lap and see how you handle it, all right?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Fire away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you take nanotechnology and you combine it with biological sciences, would it not be possible, theoretically, to let loose something that would kill all the Muslims in the world?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		You mean a Muslim-specific pathogen?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what I mean, yeah.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Or an anything-specific pathogen, for that matter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I picked that for obvious reasons.
		Or one that would kill Caucasian males, or Caucasian females, or blacks, or Native Americans, or you get the drift, right?
		In other words, something that would target specific racial characteristics and then do its job.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Yes, there is that danger.
		There is that risk of being able to target individual groups.
		And again, I know there's been this discussion on the show before, but in the early 1900s when the machine gun was first brought into play in warfare, there was a statistic given that if you lined everyone up in the world and shot them with a machine gun, that in a period of days, everyone on Earth would be dead.
		There has been this concern, and it is not an unjustified concern about, because we proceeded to go on and kill 25 million people, so it was a justified concern.
		There is absolutely this concern that is being brought up about the tremendous selective dangers of these technologies.
		And that, Art, is precisely why we have to adopt a doctrine of mass survival when we are approaching these new technologies.
		Right.
		Precisely.
		It's nothing new.
		And it sounds like old hat.
		But the reality is that in the beginning, as these technologies start to take off, one of the most beneficial things that we can do would be to do things that show benefits for large populations.
		And this would help to overcome a lot of these fears.
		Now, in terms of dealing with this threat that you're talking about, there is an upside to it.
		And the upside is if we have artificially intelligent machines that can search this stuff out, it means that we can also develop a defense against it.
		And let's just go back to the World Trade Center for a second, because if you look at how nanotechnology could have benefited the World Trade Center, there are a number of ways that we could have used it.
		The first thing is if we had had nanostructured, reinforced buildings, the towers never would have fallen.
		The second thing is that if the towers had been coated with materials that allowed communication between the buildings and the airplanes, you could have in place an anti-collision network that would actually operate remotely.
		Now, there is no question that these things could always be circumvented by an evil mind, but you can see how, on one hand, you have the evil of selective annihilation of a group of people, but on the other hand, you can also have artificially intelligent systems that can be used to defend against that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but I would ask, in the real world here, what weapon is it that we've developed?
		And most weapons have positive aspects to them.
		I mean, nuclear power has a positive aspect to it.
		Nuclear energy.
		What weapon is it we've developed on Earth so far and haven't used.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		You're absolutely correct.
		And you can say the same thing about nature.
		For example, nature has hit the planet relatively infrequently, but certainly with asteroids that have caused a lot of damage here and, as you mentioned earlier, have also opened the window for other species to go ahead.
		The reason I'm saying that is because we're not the only ones with those kinds of weapons and we still face this reality out there that there are some natural threats that are just as nasty as we hear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well yes, perhaps so, but for the very first time we are approaching an area and a time in science when our hand can do what nature previously only has been able to do, and that is provide such a giant kaboom that it makes an evolutionary leap.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely correct.
		And that's precisely why organizations such as the Foresight Institute and groups that ascribe to Isaac Asimov's Law of Robotics and the group that developed the Genome Project have all made first efforts at a code of ethics and a code of development for these technologies.
		Now, these are just in their very primary states.
		They are full of mistakes and faults.
		There's no question about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it not possible that Isaac's law simply might not be operable?
		In other words, once you get an intelligent machine, the machine might decide that it is in the best interest of the machine or the planet that we do not proceed as we wish to, but rather must proceed as the machine wishes us to.
		And that that would be to our best benefit.
		Now, we might not agree with that at the time, and it might seem like it's breaking the law.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and also if you imbue the machine, quite right, if you imbue the machine with those values, the first thing it might do is look at us and ask, well, if I was given these values by this human species, why do they keep contravening those rules?
		And that is, I think, a very good question to ask, because you hit the nail on the head once again.
		This is the real issue.
		If we are going to create machines that are more intelligent than us, and I want to emphasize, I don't think it's going to just be machines that are more intelligent than us.
		I believe that at the same time, we are going to be and are already enhancing our own capabilities.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		So that these paths will move along parallelly.
		And I can't overemphasize that enough because there's always a lot of discussion about the machines being smarter than us.
		But in fact, it may go along in parallel that humans will become enhanced at similar rates that machines become intelligent.
		And hopefully, this may lead us to a place where the machines don't have to look at us and say, why are they contravening their own rules all the time?
		So the way to combat this very serious problem and this potential that you have brought up of these evil things occurring is to look at ways that we can also enhance ourselves as humans and we can move into a new era.
		And one of the things I say in the book over and over again is, I certainly don't have the answers, but it's time we started asking the right questions.
		And there is a chapter in the book called The Right Questions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the right questions would be, in your view, if Al-Qaeda had in their hands something that, should they release it, would kill all the Caucasians in the world, would they release it?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Release it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you think they'd release it?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that over time you've seen that any fanatical group that believes in their cause will go to any length possible.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		And I think that your guest last night said that clearly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, he did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so when do you expect that to change?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		I don't think that's going to change.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		I think that what you have to do is to be able to develop defenses against that to contain it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I want to get to some calls.
		We've got a lot of people waiting.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Douglas Maha.
		Hello.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you're on the air, sir.
unidentified		Thank you, Art.
unidentified		I would like to ask Douglas if he thinks that nanotechnology would help probe the surface of Mars without risking the lives of astronauts and cosmonauts to actually physically go up there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good question.
		In other words, we're always debating, Douglas, manned, very expensive manned missions versus robotic missions.
		And so what place might nanotechnology have in unmanned missions to Mars and elsewhere?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Nanotechnology has a huge role to place on it, and that is precisely why NASA is so interested in it.
		First of all, because nanobacteria tend to apparently get out of control and replicate inside astronauts when they're in weightlessness for a prolonged period of time.
		And that's why NASA is so interested in nanobacteria.
		In terms of reducing the risks, there are two ways to do that.
		The first thing is, as we mentioned earlier, if you can get these vehicles into outer space in a space elevator or launch them from the moon or somewhere else, then you're going to be able to deliver much larger payloads.
		And you don't even have to do that because you can deliver a very small programmed payload to the surface of Mars and it will use the resources on the planet to self-assemble according to a predetermined program.
		So you can actually develop, you know, you can basically go out and forage and you can use robotic artificially intelligent machines to explore the surface.
		I think it's going to happen in parallel.
		I think what's going to happen is that you're going to see these artificially intelligent machines.
		You're going to see molecular assemblers going to the surface of Mars.
		And Robert Zubrin, who you have interviewed, Art, has talked frequently about manufacturing fuel from the resources on the face of the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, Mars is there and Mars is semi-habitable.
		I mean it would be very difficult, but suppose you know a lot of people in science fiction have talked about terraforming and it seems to me that nanotechnology might just be the answer to terraforming a planet.
		In other words, you set something loose that's going to begin to modify the climate.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I call it the difference, the choice between being the 10 trillion ton gorilla and living lightly on the Earth.
		The difference being that you're absolutely right, you can use these technologies to terraform, but in the beginning, especially in the beginning, we may not have to do that because we can use these technologies to create artificial environments that go with us no matter where we are.
		And this is really the remarkable power of these technologies.
		So instead of terraforming the whole environment in the beginning to suit what we think are human needs, we can travel around with our own environment, first of all, through exoskeletal suits that are much more sophisticated than space suits that exist today and much more comfortable to move around in.
		But secondly, to create, for example, domed environments that can give us a very livable environment without terraforming the whole planet.
		So we will have these choices.
		We'll have the choice between doing, you know, taking all of the water out of the frozen subsurface and creating an atmosphere or saying, okay, wait a minute, before we do that, let's just create our own livable environments and then gather as much knowledge as we can about how this planet actually works, and then we'll make some decisions.
		And that would be the wise way to go, and I think that Dr. Zubrin is going along those lines as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, as the World Wildlife Federation is right, then I guess we'd better be working on one of the two, huh?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		And again, coming back to this report.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we can't because after the break, we can.
		Who loves you, baby?
		Science loves you, baby.
		That's it.
		Science loves you.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Premiere Radio Networks tonight, an oncour presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 10th, 2002.
		Who loves you to me, baby?
		Who's gonna love you, mama?
		Who loves you to me, baby?
		When the tears are in your eyes, then you can't find the way.
		Who loves you to me, baby?
		Or to make believe you're happy when you're great Baby, when you're feeling like you'll never see the morning light You'll come to
		me, baby, you'll see But I'm too pretty, baby But God, I'll help you through the light But I'm too pretty, baby I'm too pretty, baby
		Be the sight of the sand, the smell of the touch, there's something inside that we need so much.
		The sight of the touch, or the scent of the sand, or the strength of an oak when you use deep in the ground.
		The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
		Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing, to lie in the meadow and hear the grass sling, all these things in our memory sore.
		I need you to learn how to do it.
		Goodbye.
		Take this pain of this strength just for me.
		Why take a fear to my breath of my sea in my dreams?
		I have been for years.
		Worked so hard just to end my fears.
		And to end my life on it.
		Oh, my God.
		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time, tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 10th, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the discussion tonight is about nanotechnology and actually combining that science with biology and what it holds for us, the promise and the threat.
		And that's really what it is, a promise and a hope and a threat.
		My guest is Douglas Maul, and we'll get right back to him.
unidentified		Oh.
unidentified		Let's go back to the night of July 10, 2002, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we were briefly discussing this report, very controversial report, Earth will expire by 2050.
		It's the WWF report, Our Planet is Running Out of Room and Resources.
		Modern Man has plundered so much, a damning report claims this week that outer space will have to be colonized, I guess, or else.
		Douglas?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		I think that as a longtime ecologist, I share some of these concerns.
		But one of the reasons that I stopped working for a little while on environmental technologies in order to write this book was to really look at the reality of what's happening with our technologies and where they might be taking us.
		And I've come to the conclusion that we have a chance to use these technologies to correct some of the environmental mistakes that we've made.
		But beyond that, environmentalists everywhere really need to take a serious look at both the upsides and downsides of these technologies because of their tremendous power.
		And my concern is that that isn't being done enough right now.
		And if it is, it's more from a fearful point of view rather than what can we do to improve our situation.
		Because I think that the potential will be there to avoid a lot of these problems that are being predicted.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Douglas, a lot of the things that you're talking about, you know, the paint on solar panels, the buildings that are indestructible with material coating them and all the rest of that, is all going to collide head-on with all of the present financial interests like oil and like our present energy system, which is bound to use up like every last drop and prevent anything that will stop that from happening.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		I'm glad you brought that up, Art, because here's where I think we're approaching a quantum leap.
		There is so much government investment going into the supporting, again, these grain technologies, genetics, robotics, artificial intelligence, and nanotechnology.
		It's the convergence that is driving this tremendous development.
		And what's interesting is that unwittingly, at the same time, they are establishing such a broad base worldwide for development of energy-efficient technologies, it's going to be very hard to contain.
		If there has been an effort to contain it now, it's going to be extremely difficult to contain because it's going to break out all over the place.
		The solar cells are going to become so cheap and ubiquitous, they'll be everywhere, that it's going to be very hard for vested interests to prevent them from coming to market.
		It's the cost factor that is really going to drive this revolution.
		So you're absolutely correct to say there's a lot of vested interests out there who don't want to see some of this stuff come to market because some of these technologies are actually very liberating.
		The way that they might try to control it is through the software.
		Again, and we talked about this earlier, that the people that control the software, and there's been a book written about it called Owning the Future, about the struggle over control over patents.
		But again, if we come back to the issue of genetic programming, this is very important because genetic programming is developing at such a rate that computers are designing things so fast that the patents regime may rapidly become out of date.
		If you have computers all over the world designing their own designs and submitting them, the patents office is going to be totally overwhelmed within the next 10 to 15 years simply because of the volume of materials.
		So we could indeed see a collapse of the patents regime, which in turn may result in some rather serious changes to the way that industry works.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It certainly would.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		And one of the results might be a liberation of these very inexpensive energy technologies.
		And that's why I say that we may rapidly move from having a scarcity of energy or the wrong kind of energy to having an overabundance of energy and an overabundance of materials that are created by these very cheap machines.
		And even today...
		Well, your robot is sitting in Sony's store right now.
		If you go into any Sony store, you'll find Aibo the robot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, but I'm at the predicted...
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		And I think that that day is rapidly coming, Art.
		And I also believe that the robots are around us everywhere.
		They just don't have hands, legs, and feet.
		They are here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, all right.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Look, a lot of people want to talk to you, so we've got very little time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air with Douglas Maul.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hello.
		Hello.
		Oh, hey there, Douglas.
		Hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, I had a couple of questions.
		My first one is, Douglas, I had a question.
		Is it true?
		This is what I heard.
		Is it true that only humans use 10% of their brain?
		Hmm.
		What do you think about that?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, I'm not a psychologist or a neurologist, but there are a lot of theories floating around, I think, supported by a lot of evidence, that we certainly don't use all of our brain capacity.
		And I think that's a good point that you have brought up, because one of the arguments that is made by neurologists today is that we could use drugs and nanobots and neural connectivity to enhance the capacity of the human brain.
		And that is one of the ways that superhuman intelligence may evolve.
		So that's an excellent point that you've brought up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And your next question?
unidentified		My next question is, Douglas, have you ever heard, do you know what Suggestopedia is?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry?
unidentified		It's called Suggestopedia?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Never heard of it.
unidentified		Okay, well, it's this book I've read.
		It's called Super Learning.
		And this person who wrote it, they're saying Sugestopedia, if you do it, you can make like, you can increase 50% of your memory.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, okay.
		I think I know what he's talking about.
		There are these various disciplines that will allow you to read 10 or 20 or 30 or 100 times faster or remember things that you cannot remember otherwise with certain disciplines.
		In other words, other ways to increase your memory capacity, that sort of thing.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and as we learn more about the human brain, we may be able to leapfrog from those methodologies into other methodologies that are enhanced by the methods we talked about earlier.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So nanotechnology might provide neural connection that doesn't presently exist.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and again, nanotechnology doesn't come from nowhere.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		It comes from a whole bunch of technologies and methodologies that exist now, and so it's just the next step.
unidentified		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kind of like the Krell learning machine.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		For example.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Oh, hi.
		You were talking about calcification and I think you said nanobacteria or something that are causing problems like that and that it may be eliminated.
		This may be a cure found for it.
		Do you think there really will be or if so, when?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		I think you should go to the Nanobact Labs website and read about it because they are the authority on it.
		And the short answer to your question is a study has just been published that definitively shows that tetracycline can inhibit the development of nanobacteria.
		For further information, I suggest that you go to their website and they have a lot of really good data on it.
		And also there's a good article in Nanotechnology magazine, which is nanozine.com, and they have a number of other articles on similar topics.
		So those are the two sources that I would go to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Douglas Maho.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hello?
		Yes, Art?
		Yes.
		Oh, I'm sorry.
		He didn't say East.
		I didn't catch that.
		This is Robert from Jacksonville, Florida.
		Listen to you on WOKV.
		Yes, sir.
		I'd like to preference my statement by, first of all, I am totally blind.
		I lost both natural eyes to an automobile accident 36 years ago.
		And I've always, when I started hearing about nanotechnology and genetic engineering and that type of stuff, my prediction is that hopefully within 100 years that man has not destroyed ourselves, that situations like myself or people with spinal cord and these type of disabilities will no longer be in existence.
		But I'm also curious, myself being, I am now just turned 62, and I'm wondering myself, is there some way that I might be able to contribute to a leap forward by being a human guinea pig for genetic engineering possible or growing eyes back again or something like that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, I don't know about growing eyes back.
		I don't think they're at that stage yet, but corneas can be, yes, corneal problems can be addressed with technology we now have.
		Now, if you've lost your eyes entirely, Douglas, is there anything on the horizon for somebody like that?
		Or is it pretty much over the horizon for that man in his 60s?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Art, as with many of these things, I am not the expert, but rather am reflecting the overview of the experts.
		And I would suggest contacting Octobionics Corporation, because they're the ones who have developed the artificial retina.
		And they will certainly be able to fill you in on the most recent advances in these areas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And his other question was whether he could actually volunteer and be of some use to an organization of that sort experimentally.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		There actually are a lot of volunteers.
		For example, there were seven original volunteers that did the artificial retina program in the last three years, and so that type of thing is very, very active in the medical community.
		So yes, the answer is yes, there are things that can be done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that would be the path you would follow?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		That would be the path you can follow.
		But I would suggest to do or have someone do for you or to use voice recognition to surf the net and find out as much as you can about the pros and cons of volunteering for these various experiments.
		There are naturally risks associated with them, and I would suggest you familiarize yourself with them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Welcome to the Rockies.
		You're on there with Douglas Maha.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I have a couple of questions.
unidentified		First, do you think that some of these new environmental groups, such as the WSF, might actually be the Amish of the 21st century and that their political solutions, like the Kyoto Treaty and so forth, are actually going to paralyze our ability to be able to respond to the changes that are taking place?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		My concern is there's a major conference being held in Johannesburg, the 10-year anniversary of, and it's called the World Sustainability Summit.
		And my concern is that we're not looking enough at these new technologies and new solutions.
		And there is a danger not that these organizations will be the Amish and somehow block things, but that they will not reach their full potential in helping us to understand our relationship with the ecology until the environmental movement learns more about how these technologies work.
		And that is what I would encourage them to do.
unidentified		That's exactly the way I feel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir.
unidentified		Appreciate that.
unidentified		I had one other question, though, with respect to artificial intelligence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		One of the most important things, of course, is going to be the establishment, the development, reliability of a strict moral code.
unidentified		How important is that going to be?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		That moral code is being examined, as I mentioned earlier with ART, by organizations such as the Foresight Institute out of San Francisco.
		It's foresight.org, and they have the Foresight principles that are listed at the end of my book, but also you can find them online.
		And there are a number of other organizations that have developed these guidelines, but they need a lot more work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, here's my concern.
		We have a certain set of moral principles that we consider to be the right ones and the proper ones and the golden rule and all the rest of that.
		Now, if we were to inculcate these moral principles into an extremely intelligent computer and allow it to, in essence, run things, we might not at all like the results because, you know, in everyday life, while we preach, we rarely practice what we preach, and that's kind of how the world runs.
		But the computer would take it quite literally and apply that sort of morality, quite literally, and we might not like that at all.
		It would be like a world where you couldn't tell a lie.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and I think that's a great point, and I think that that's why it will be interesting to see if the enhanced human develops quickly enough or if these machines will develop past our capacities and make those judgments for us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That'd be my bet.
		I'd be laying my money on that one.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with Douglas Mohal.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hello, Art.
		Hello, honored guest.
		I've been trying to call you for years and years, and I used to listen to you back in 92 up in Anchorage, Alaska.
		I'm currently in Krivetz, Wisconsin.
		Yes, sir.
		And I grew up with reading science fiction and watching science fiction programs.
		And my poison of choice when it came to science fiction has always been Star Trek Next Generation and the continuing stories there on.
		And one of the things that they really focused on was nanite technology.
		And the fact that it's getting to the point now where we can actually see it possibly happening is really exciting.
		My question for the guest is, does he really believe that these things will be possible?
		I mean, I know he's saying this, but does he really, really believe this deep inside?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, it's kind of like, where's my robot?
		Yeah, I know, the Sony.
		But in other words, some of these things, they're incredible.
		They're amazing to imagine, as this caller just said, but do you really, really believe they will manifest as you hope?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Art, one of the main points I make in the book is this collision of futures that we face.
		Nothing is certain.
		And that is really the conclusion that I have come to, is that it is dangerous to predict the future.
		You can certainly prognosticate and you can make suppositions about it.
		But to say that one future or the other is going to take place is very dangerous.
		And I think that there's just as equal a possibility that due to cultural limitations or climate changes or other natural occurrences, we may not reach this point.
		It is definitely a race that we're in right now.
		And so the answer is, I don't know.
		But I do know that we, again, need to start asking the right questions in order to determine more accurately where it is that we're going.
		And that's what the book is about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sometimes I don't know is an okay answer.
		One more.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Douglas Mohawk.
unidentified		Yes, this, I'm calling from Omaha, Nebraska here with SFRETCOM, and what will be the new Space Command will be moving in here, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I've heard.
unidentified		Yeah, we're going to be shooting at Art's Rocks, I guess.
		Anyway, my question was, are you aware of, or Did you include it in your book about the optical neural nets that we're working on to use?
		We're using it for cryptography, but I was wondering if you were aware of them.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		The optical area of optics is enormous.
		And what I've done in the book, again, is to refer people to information sources where they can then get more information about it, because these areas are so vast.
		So the answer is no, I did not explicitly mention that particular area, but I did refer readers to sources where they can find out about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, and speaking of referring, we've got a link, of course, on my website that will take people to Amazon.com and your book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I presume your book is available by ordering in bookstores, or is it generally in bookstores, or what?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		It's generally available, and it has actually just hit bookstores in the last week or so, Art, but people can definitely get it through Amazon.com, Barnes & Noble, Buy.com, and a number of other sources, and they can go to our website as well and order directly from the publisher.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it the kind of thing the average person can read and understand?
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		I wrote this book for everybody.
		I did not write this book for technologists.
		It is designed for the layperson, and I can't overemphasize that enough.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's really important, and I think based on that, a lot of people will go and take a look-see, looks like our future.
		All right, well, Douglas, it has been an absolute pleasure to have you on the program.
		This is one of my favorite topics, and we'll have you back again.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Let's do it again, Art.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		There's lots more to talk about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night, Douglas.
douglas mulhall ▲ ● ▼		Good night to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Douglas Mohol, and the topic was nanotechnology.
		Nanotechnology meets biology.
		It is a brave, scary, kind of strange new world out there, isn't it?
		And people like Douglas may come along and save us all.
		Or he may point to those who are going to save us all.
		But I guess we've got to ask ourselves, do we feel lucky?

▲