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June 18, 2002 - Art Bell

02:44:40

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Dr. H. Paul Shuch, Stanton Friedman - Challenge to SETI

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58:46

dr paul shuch

36:33

stanton friedman

34:37

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Israel suffers another bombing, a bus bombing, and now it's moving and will hold Palestinian lands, by the way, now they say, until the terror attacks against civilians there end.
		You know, President Bush was on the verge of talking about a Palestinian state, and he's been sort of talking about it, and the Palestinians are likely to change his mind.
		I think he's maybe on the verge of that.
		So the Middle East news is really lousy.
		President Vicente Fox...
		Ha, ha, ha.
		Somebody sent me an email saying there is no real word for Fox in Spanish, the name Fox.
		But Fox in Spanish means Zorro.
		Therefore, the president of Mexico is Zorro.
		Anyway, Vincenti Vox opened to public scrutiny nearly 80 million once-secret files that could expose a government legacy of dirty tricks and the torture and murder of opponents.
		So he says, you know, it shows that Mexico is now beginning to come clean.
		Now, here's some big shaky news for you.
		You may recall Gordon Michaels Gallion on the program, and he warned to watch of an earthquake on the New Madrid Fault.
		Do you remember that?
		Well, the New Madrid's been really quiet, except today it wasn't.
		There has been an earthquake which shook a wide area around southern Indiana on Tuesday afternoon.
		According to the U.S. Geological Survey, no immediate reports of damage, though it was felt widely, the earthquake was centered in a rural area.
		Thank goodness.
		Its potential for damage was low.
		Johnson said the quake was on the north arm of the New Matt Fault Zone.
		The New Mattred system caused four catastrophic quakes, estimated at magnitude seven or greater in the Midwest in the years 1811 and 1812, quakes of over six in 1843 and 1895.
		Seven other tremors of five or better have happened in the fault system since then.
		It is said when the big one hit, the little one ran backward.
		Now, this is a five-magnitude earthquake on the New Madrid.
		And they just don't happen.
		The last ones were in the 1800s.
		And again, I remind you, lest people forget this kind of thing, Gordon Michael Scallion said, watch for earthquake or a shake on the New Madrid fault.
		If that occurs, look out.
		And so I'm just reminding you of what he said.
		Earlier, I got an email from a young lady, Stephanie, I won't give her last name right now, in New York that reads, I'm 36 years old.
		I'm the mother of two children, ages 14 and 7.
		Two nights ago, my seven-year-old daughter awoke horrified.
		She told me she had seen three aliens, small, like children, flying around the room.
		They were green, had several eyes, and winged-like with big heads.
		Our cat, Boo, was in the room going nuts.
		He was jumping up and down from the bunk bed to the floor.
		She said that he was scratching one of these aliens.
		The cat was.
		Then when he scratched it, they all disappeared.
		There wasn't any blood stains on the bedroom walls.
		There is, though, a brownish-like something or another that feels slimy.
		And it just goes on and on.
		And she gives her phone number.
		And so this is pretty weird stuff.
		And I thought that I would bring Stephanie on the line tonight and get the rest of the story, as Paul would say.
		Stephanie, welcome to the program.
unidentified		Oh, hi, Art.
unidentified		Thank you so much for allowing me to tell my story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you're very welcome.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, can I hear the New York in you?
unidentified		I know.
		I have a Brooklyn actor.
		I was from Brooklyn and moved to Staten Island.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, Stephanie, what is going on there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I just read a little bit, but this has been going on how long?
unidentified		Well, I don't know where you want me to begin.
		I could begin when I was 15, when things started, strange things started happening to me.
		You know, I could tell you the whole story, or you want to hear what happened two nights ago?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, some of the early stuff.
unidentified		Okay, all right.
		About age 15, I had bought a Ouija board, and at the time I was not aware of the dangers of using one.
		And I used to play with it just for fun.
		And I had that Ouija board in the house.
		Very strange things started happening to me.
		For example, I used to sleep on a canopy bed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And the canopy top would start blowing with all the windows shut.
		It would just blow.
		And one incident in particular that scared me to death was I felt a strange presence in my room.
		And it was very scary.
		I jumped out of my bed, and I put the light on, and I looked at my hands, and on one of my hands was written what looked like ash.
		In ash, it was written.
		The name of a woman, Anna Bringenham, it said.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Give me that name again, Anna.
unidentified		Anna, I think it was B-R-I-G-A-N-H-A-M.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that was written on your hand?
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		It was sort of like in an ash, like a smoky ash.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A smoky ash, okay?
unidentified		And then I ran into my mother's bedroom, which was next door, and I woke her up screaming, and then I opened the light in her room, and then the writing transferred from my hand to her wall.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The writing went from your hand to her wall.
unidentified		Right.
		And she got out of her bed.
		We both could not believe what we had seen, and the name Anna Bringenham was written on the wall.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What did your mother say about this?
unidentified		Oh, she was petrified.
		And, you know, a lot of things happened where, like, we had found a statue once.
		It was like an Indian warrior statue, and it had red, ruby eyes.
		And one night the eyes started to glow so bright as the flames were coming out of his eyes on the wall.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And I just felt there was like an evil spirit in the statue.
unidentified		And then on a few other occasions, I was scared to death, so we just threw it out, not in front of our building, but we walked a few blocks down, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, you're now 36 years old, huh?
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're a mom, yourself.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've got a couple kids, 14 and 7.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And whatever this is, has it gone away, Steph, for long periods of time, or has it always been with you, occurring every now and then?
unidentified		It's always been with me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Always, huh?
unidentified		And I always have psychic dreams.
		You know, like I had premonitions, like I was in a bad accident when I was 19.
		And I had dreamt the dream exactly the way it was going to happen, like a month before it happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		And the policeman had said that they thought that he had died in the wrecked car.
		It was so bad.
		And in my dream, I was instructed how to open up the car door.
		Everyone was unconscious except me.
		And I pulled my friend out, and my boyfriend at the time, the two boys were in the front.
		You know, he went through the windshield.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, I'm already sitting here at this point listening to your story, you know, thinking this girl opened a door back when she was 15, and some sort of evil spirit came through.
unidentified		Yeah, I became a Horn Again Christian at 19.
		But so I got rid of that Ouija boy.
		I mean, I would never play with something like that again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know, but when a door is open, someone comes through, and you close the door, all you do is lock it in sometimes.
		And so I was thinking, here's some sort of evil spirit, perhaps, frankly, inhabiting you.
		But now you're telling me that at one point it or something warned you of how to escape an otherwise fatal accident.
unidentified		I don't know what it is.
		Maybe I have both evil and an angel and an evil spirit.
		I don't know, mixed up there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe two nights ago, what happened in your home?
unidentified		Okay, this is pretty, pretty, pretty scary.
		Okay, it was two days before Father's Day, and my seven and a half-year-old daughter, she woke up, panicked, and she said she saw three small aliens.
		She said they were about like her height, about four feet.
		And she just, the way she described them, they were green, they had horns, they had big yellow eyes with eight fingers, eight toes.
		And she said they had four eyes, the two regular eyes in the middle of the face, and one eye on each side of the ears.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		And she said they were flying all around the room.
		So our cat Boo, he was in the room, and I had noticed he was acting crazy.
		He started jumping up and down on her bunk bed, from her bunk bed to the floor.
		And then his ears went back, which he doesn't do, you know, he don't act like that.
		And he was chased, like he was chasing something.
		And then she said, Boo scratched one of the aliens, and then all of them disappeared.
		And then on Father's Day, which was two days later, I put my daughter to bed around 10 o'clock.
		And me and my 14-year-old son decided to go down and watch some TV because we weren't tired.
		So then we came up around 11.15, went to sleep.
		And in about 10 minutes, my son started to yell to me that his bed was shaking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		His bed shaking.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		It was shaking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right out of the exorcist, huh?
unidentified		It's scary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, and so you went in there?
unidentified		No, actually, I sleep with my children in the same room.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		My husband did that.
unidentified		That's another program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You should be aware then that the bed's shaking, shouldn't you?
unidentified		Well, it also happened to me.
		That was one of my other stories from when I moved here.
		You know, my bed was shaken too, like two years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much shaking are we talking about here?
unidentified		This is like, well, when it happens to me, it would shake.
		I think it was part of a dream.
		You know, the bed would be shaking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And I'm actually like half asleep and half awake.
		But he was awake because he hadn't fallen asleep yet.
		And then he was terrified.
		He's a smart kid, so I know when he's really scared.
		So I try to comfort him, and then we shut the light again.
		I says, maybe it'll go away, you know.
		Then our cat booth starts going crazy again, and he starts clawing around the bottom of the bunk bed where my son sleeps.
		And he was going crazy.
		So then my son felt some kind of hands or something trying to push up his mattress.
		And he felt actually a claw, a giant claw try to claw him, he said.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A claw.
unidentified		So then I opened up the light and he's screaming.
		And it's just, then I got out my Bible.
		I'm trying to say scriptures and everything.
		I said, in Jesus' name, you have no power here.
		Leave my children alone.
		And I said this a few times.
		I sat on my son's bed saying this.
		Then I put the night light on and I left it on all night.
		And then the next day, I see on top of the bunk beds, there's like brownish-red, they're like pointy marks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Brownish-red, pointy marks on the wall.
unidentified		Yeah, they're still here.
		No, they're on the wall.
		I see that there's five in all.
		It's funny because five of us live here.
		It's my husband, my mother, me and my two kids, and there's five marks.
		Like haw marks?
		You could say that they're like pointy.
		It's sort of like points.
		I don't know.
		It's weird.
		It's kind of weird to explain, though.
		But when I touched it, it's like feel slimy, like.
		But they're like sort of brownish.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You say it just feels slimy.
		Right.
		Is there actual material that you can see there, or it's only to the touch?
unidentified		I see it.
		You know, I didn't know what it was.
		I saw my mother.
		She was like, she couldn't believe it herself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So there's some kind of material there then?
unidentified		Yeah, it's five marks.
		You know, it looks like, well, it looks brownish, sort of.
		I'm looking at the nail effect.
		They're like pointy, you know, on the wall.
		I don't know if it's the blood of the creatures that my cat scratched.
		You know, I don't know.
		I don't know what's going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Normally, you see, normally I would beg you for photographs, of course.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you mentioned in your email that your computer is launched, I guess, huh?
unidentified		I was surprised I even got through to you today.
		You know, I was praying that I'd get through here because if someone else is going to think I'm crazy here, but I know, you know, I listened to you for the past almost three years.
		You know, so I know you're programmed there.
		You know, I'm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, it sounds like something has.
		There's only two possibilities I can think of.
		one is something has attached itself to you and it's still there, and you're going to have to do something about it.
unidentified		Yeah, I don't know what.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or or it's coming from you.
unidentified		I don't know.
		I don't know.
		I also had like a cat, another cat that was 17.
		And he had died.
		And when he died, he died up in our room here.
		So the night he died, I buried him out in the back.
		And when he died, you know, we were we were hearing all things up here, like bumping and running around.
		And we were just like scared.
		My kids were like clinging to me, very scared to death.
		And but I felt it was him, you know, just coming back to say one last goodbye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		And that happened a few years ago.
unidentified		So I don't know, you know, it's a lot, a bunch of different things here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're scared.
unidentified		I'm scared because I'm a Christian.
unidentified		I believe like, you know, we have power over the evil, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, didn't you tell me you just said be gone in the name of Jesus?
unidentified		Well, it's still not, you know, it wasn't gone, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I get that.
		I get that.
		You really need, I think you need to be in touch with somebody, somebody who can really help you out, somebody.
unidentified		Yeah, I'd be willing to even put a camera in here.
unidentified		I mean, sometimes they have those things where you could, you know, the cameras see things that you can't see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You'd be willing to have cameras?
unidentified		If I can, you know, to see if there's something in this house.
		Because there's a lot of stuff.
		And then we hear singing sometimes like little children by the attic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How frequent is all this going on?
		How frequently?
		An investigator would have.
unidentified		It's a lot in the summer months, you know.
unidentified		My daughter had gotten her two teletubbies, was it last summer, from a yard sale?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And the teletubbies, in the middle of the night, we hear them singing.
unidentified		They just would start singing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The teletubbies started singing.
unidentified		By themselves, yeah.
		We were petrified.
		We woke up.
		We were shaken and scared.
		I threw them out.
		You know, I threw them out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I'll tell you what I'll do, Stephanie.
		I've got your phone number, your personal phone number.
		So if any investigator out there feels like pursuing this with cameras or a team, they're going to need more details.
		And I'll sort of screen them.
		And if they, you know, I'll put you in touch.
unidentified		How's that?
unidentified		I appreciate it because I would like to, you know, I mean, if there's something here, there's someone, you know, some evil spirit here, I definitely wanted to get out of this house.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
		All right.
		Done deal, Stephanie.
unidentified		I appreciate it all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, thank you very much.
unidentified		I love your show, and you're doing a great job.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		And have a good night.
		Quiet night, I hope.
unidentified		Oh, you're ready to go to sleep.
		That's why I listened to you.
		I'm up all night, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, take care, Sally.
unidentified		All right, good night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night.
		All right.
		That's Stephanie from New York.
		Yeah, you know, after hearing all of that, and obviously there was more we didn't hear, that's a case I think of I can only consider two possibilities, but, you know, who the hell am I?
		I can only consider that she has allowed something in that is still with her and may always be with her.
		She's echoes of last night's program about the bell witch, huh?
		Or it's coming from her, you know, young teenage girls, boy again and again and again.
		You hear about these stories, but here it is still with her.
		Here's something that I would like to have you all follow up on for me.
		It comes from a listener in Toledo, Ohio, Maggie.
		Maggie.
		All right, I heard a news story this morning at 8.30 or 9 o'clock on Clear Channel WSPD in Toledo, Ohio about a bottomless pothole in the middle of the street.
		Firefighters put a 1,000-foot line down that hole and didn't hit bottom.
		I only heard part of the story and think they said it was in a place called Washington or Washington Township anyway.
		Think this may be another of the bottomless holes like Mel's.
		Let's do a real quick break.
		Well, I almost did it again.
		I get so involved in what I'm doing that I blow right through breaks.
		I do it all the time.
		Things on my mind.
		My back is, by the way, threatening to ruin my vacation.
		My back is really giving me fits right now, and it may steal my vacation from me.
		I hope not.
		So I'm doing little back-it-better knocks on the wood.
		All right, listen, we're going to take the regular network break now, and we'll be back shortly with a couple of more items.
		Boy, there's an awful lot going on out there.
		Can you believe an earthquake on the New Madrid Falls?
		Gordon Michaels said, watch for it.
		I'm Art Bell, and this, from the left coast, is coast.
unidentified		All right, and it's coming on.
		We gotta get right back to where we started from.
		Love is good.
		Love will be strong.
		We gotta get right back to where we started from.
		Come on.
		Do you remember that day?
		It's sunny, yeah.
		When you first came up, the little spill I gave you up, I bought the weed and made it to the top.
		I gave you all I had to give I didn't have to stop.
		You blow the sky I fare to be alive without a reason why you blow the sky I love having to fly.
		To recharge Bell in the Kingdom of Nye.
		From west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
		Or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, there is, kind of like this song says, the one thing I cannot abide is being lied to.
		And somebody zapped me today, and it's not going to happen again, I can tell you that.
		All this on top of my back, right?
		Well, the Chicago Tribune out with a story today saying deep throat is over, the mystery solved.
		Students say, guess who it was?
		Students there say the person who was deep throat was Pat Buchanan.
		And they've studied the issue and looked at it very carefully, and it was Pat Buchanan.
		You'd say, oh, come on.
		Pat Buchanan, that doesn't make sense.
		But Pat Buchanan, say the students, was really miffed with President Nixon for his overtures to China.
		So miffed that he became deep throat.
		That's not me saying that.
		That's the Chicago Tribune story on what the students had to say.
		It's not interesting.
		You think it might have been...
		Could it have been Pat Buchanan?
		Could it have been...
		Pat Buchanan There seems to be some dispute.
		By the way, I'm getting word that there is a big UFO flap possibly going on in, I think it was New Hampshire.
		And maybe my wife will come in.
		I know Peter called just part of the show and said that he couldn't confirm anything yet, but that there was something going on in New Hampshire.
		He's getting some sort of word.
		So consider that one sort of as stand.
		No doubt we'll say before the night is over in the gray box and we'll see what happens.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		I just wanted to call and inform you about the bottomless pit in Seattle, Washington, I think it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's see.
		What did it say?
		Let's see.
		About a bottomless hole in the middle of the street.
		Firefighter.
		So it didn't say.
unidentified		But yeah, what about...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Yeah, I heard about it on the radio today, but I guess the firefighters or the street people went to go try to fix just what they thought was a hole, and that's when they dropped the rope down, and then it just never ended or never stopped.
unidentified		And then they pulled it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, I'll tell you, there's something about Washington State, isn't there?
unidentified		Yeah, I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And this bottomless hole stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, how could you...
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, they opened like a manhole or something?
unidentified		I don't know.
unidentified		It was like a hole in the street, and then they peeled the road back, and then that's when they realized, like.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God, this hole goes down forever.
unidentified		Yeah, and they dropped a brick down it, and you can hear the brick bounce off the walls, but you just never hear it end.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is under a street?
unidentified		Uh-huh.
unidentified		So, I would say that it probably disappeared, because I don't see people building a street over a bottomless hole.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I wonder how many Chevys have gone down there.
unidentified		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fords!
unidentified		For real.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Geo Metros.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You wouldn't even hear a Geo.
unidentified		For real.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You'd go clink once, and that'd be it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, I appreciate the information.
unidentified		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		Take care.
		Yeah.
		What is it about the state of Washington and these holes anyway?
		In the middle of the street?
		Boy, I'll tell you, we live in a time of weird news, don't we?
		Again, the story I have, talking about this fault line, the Evansville earthquake, actually the Midwest earthquake, you ought to call it really, it says Johnston from the U.S. Geological Survey said it was an arm of the New Madrid Fault Zone.
		And then it goes on here to talk about the New Madrid Fault.
		And this is from CNN.com for what it's worth.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		This is Don in Half Moon, New York, WGY.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		First thing, I got a couple of things.
unidentified		The C-130 that crashed?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Did you ever see the movie Always?
		No.
		Steven Spielberg, Always, with Holly Hunter, Richard Dreyfus.
		It was a really good movie about the pilots that flew the old air bombers to fight all these forest fires.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Well, if you remember in the Air Force, the C-130, this was an A-type, so it's probably back in the Vietnam era.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe so, but still.
unidentified		Yeah, but you're taking an awful lot of stress.
unidentified		The airplane is...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, but both wings.
unidentified		Yeah, that stress is terrible.
		You're pulling up, and, you know, it's like an A-10 attack for those things.
		That's just putting the stress on...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, but those things are...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They were built like...
unidentified		Oh, yeah, they were, but you're putting 30 years of...
unidentified		I've been with the airlines for 32 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, I've got two stories on why they're grounded.
		One, because of the crash, and two, because the winds were so fierce in Colorado they couldn't fly today.
		So I don't know.
		Maybe both are true.
unidentified		Even one of the, I think it was a pilot on TV and said fatigue.
		We took a lot of airplanes out of service airline service because of fatigue.
		It just gets so much that the airplane can't take it anymore, you know?
		So you look at some of those planes, they're DC-4s, DC-6s, old Navy planes that took off the carriers 30 years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but they all have to go through the same airworthiness.
		Sure, sir, sir, sir.
		They all have to go through the same airworthiness checkups, checkups all the time.
unidentified		That's true, but there's just not enough people to do all those functions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, I appreciate the call.
		It could be that.
		Well, maybe that.
		Just plain fatigue.
		But I still think it's really strange that both wings would come off a C-130.
		Really strange.
		Yeah, I guess it could be, you know, fatigue, cracks, something.
		But they are all aircraft of this sort of that magnitude.
		I guarantee you are required to go through routine, absolute routine checks for integrity of the airframe and all that sort of thing.
		So I still think it's weird.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Mr. Bell.
		I have to relate this story to you very quick because there's definitely something afterlife.
		I was looking at the computer on Saturday because I used to live around Fort Myers, Sanibel Island to be exact.
		And so I usually look at the obituaries who died in that area because I know a lot of people.
		They live in Santa Clara, California now.
		So as I bring up, I never read the article, but there was an article about Father's Day and this gentleman that founded the Edison Mall.
		It's quite a large mall in Fort Myers.
		And I started reading the article, which I never do.
		And I go to the second page, and as I go all the way down to the last picture, there were pictures in of this gentleman that founded the Edison Mall.
		The last picture shows me my son, who died 24 years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What?
unidentified		Standing in that mall, walking in that mall, right in front.
unidentified		And behind it is a bunch of scaffolding.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How can you know for sure?
unidentified		I already called up.
		I found out it's him.
		I called Florida.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What?
unidentified		And my son died 24 years ago on July the 8th.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait, wait, wait.
		Slow down.
		Let me first ask you, 21 years ago you say your son died.
unidentified		24 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		24 years, I'm sorry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In what manner, what was the manner of his death?
unidentified		He had a boating accident on Sanibel Island in the Gulf of Mexico.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A boating accident.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And his body was recovered?
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Now, this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Excuse me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you and your family buried him?
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or cremated him or what?
unidentified		Well, he was cremated.
		Now, this picture is taken before he died.
		It was taken in June of 78.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
unidentified		But what this picture is telling me, because I was looking for a job and I don't want to go to a mall.
unidentified		For some reason, I fear malls because of the attacks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		So this picture is telling me that my son is sending me the message, don't work at a mall, because behind him, there's hardly anybody in that mall.
		There are two women walking in front.
		I've got the print out in front of me.
		Him standing right in front of the scaffolding and men are working on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that's the message, really?
unidentified		I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then that's the kind of thing you better follow.
unidentified		Don't you believe in that?
unidentified		Because it's the second time he's given me messages like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ma'am, I'm not sure what I believe.
		I think I do believe that such things can occur.
		And if I received that and I thought as you do, I would avoid malts.
unidentified		Well, thank you very much.
unidentified		And happy birthday, Mr. Bennett.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, thank you very much.
		I would avoid malts.
		You know, you've got to follow your gut on this stuff.
		As it is with a lot of life, you know, you've got to be true to yourself, honest with yourself, and if you're not, then you're going to make a hell of a lot of mistakes.
		If you're not true to yourself, if you don't follow what you believe in and pursue that, then you're going to make mistakes.
		And maybe there's a lot of people who don't listen to things and they make the ultimate mistake, you know, and they're immediately sent to the other side.
		Of course, we never hear any complaints about those mistakes because they were the last mistakes made of that sort.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
unidentified		This is Colin calling from Evansville, Indiana.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, oh, boy, ground zero, huh?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Listen to you on 1280 WGBF.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Just wanted to get with you a little bit on today's activities, 5.0.
unidentified		Not a whole lot of damage out here, and just minimal damage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's what you would expect with a five quake.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		Just got a little eye-opener, I guess you could say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, a little hello there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but there's been no hello there on this line, the fault line, since the 1800s.
unidentified		Yes, that's right.
		We've had a few tremors here and there, but that's about it until today.
		I was wondering if the gentleman that predicted this had predicted any major quake on this fault.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I hate to be the bearer of bad news.
		What I would recommend you do is you go back and listen to the program with Gordon Michaels Gallion.
		I really don't want to speak his words.
		I just want to advise you to go back and listen to that program.
		Okay.
		Okay?
unidentified		All right, sir.
unidentified		Well, thank you and have a good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have one yourself.
		Yeah.
		You know, that hit me right between the eyes, as it did a zillion other people.
		I mean, this is pretty fresh in everybody's mind, what Gordon Skitt said about the New Madrid fault.
		Now, there will be others, I say, as a little controversy about what fault line it's on, but according to CNN, it was a New Madrid.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, turn your radio off, please.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's always number one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you calling from?
unidentified		How are you doing?
unidentified		I'm calling from Cape Cod, Ark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Cape Cod, all right?
unidentified		Nice to hear from you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, good to hear from you since you called.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Great.
unidentified		I say, I just wanted to comment on the wildfires happening right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		God, it's awful.
		Isn't it?
		Yeah, awful.
		Yeah, it's part of our changing weather.
		I'm telling you, it's part of the weather change.
		Okay, I'm going to have to turn.
		I'm going to go to the next call if you won't turn your radio off, sir.
unidentified		Okay, no, it's off right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Sure.
		Okay, proceed.
		Okay.
		I mean, basically, what do you think should happen to that woman there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, let me talk a little bit about that.
		He refers to the Forest Service employee who allegedly about how this big fire got started.
		Allegedly, I guess out of the forest.
		She got a letter from her ex-husband.
		And I guess she was so angry she burned the letter.
		And it is alleged that's what began the fire.
		This whole fire.
		And so they're thrashing all that out.
		I don't know.
		You know, I just don't know.
		On the one hand, how to look at this.
		You know, if you were a judge, how to look at this.
		She was probably really angry, and I doubt she intended to start a forest fire.
		So I don't know enough of the details to say what I think ought to happen.
		Letter from an ex-husband.
		Yeah, yeah, yeah.
		Western of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		All right.
		I have two things.
		The first thing I want to tell you is I have the miracle cure for your back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-oh.
		Do you know how many miracle cures have been thrust upon me?
		But go right ahead.
unidentified		Okay, first, so you know I'm on the level.
		I know the terminology.
		I've got the same deal, L4, L5, S1, S2.
		I've lived with it for 30 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, proceed, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is the cure?
unidentified		Yeah.
		There's a back machine that certain physical therapists and chiropractors have, and it increases the muscle mass in your low back.
		And God is my witness.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A back machine.
unidentified		Yeah, it's very expensive.
unidentified		It's a $50,000 machine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
unidentified		Only certain of the physical therapy sports injury offices have it.
		But just find one of those, and I'm promising you it'll work a miracle for you.
		It has for me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Appreciate the information, sir.
unidentified		Yeah, the other issue is that I wanted to ask if you could ever get those four Army Intel guys that went AWOL from Germany, what was it, eight to ten years ago?
		Yeah, I interviewed them.
		Yeah, I just, I know that you had interviewed them years ago.
		I wondered if you'd done a recent one or not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, the story, I appreciate the call, but the story hasn't changed.
		It was a very strange story involving a Ouija board and soldiers that went AWOL ended up in Florida.
		And I interviewed them years ago, and there's not been a change to that story yet.
		It was weird then.
		It's weird now.
		Very, very strange story.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You must be in a truck.
unidentified		Yeah, I'm the truck driver.
unidentified		I'm in Catanooga now, headed down to Atlanta.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		First of all, I want to wish you a belated happy birthday.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		I couldn't get through last night to tell you.
		Finally, I got to check out your website.
		I checked out that American anti-gravity that you had on the website.
		That's a pretty neat little deal there.
		Yeah.
		They actually got all the parts you can buy to build your own.
		I've been thinking about trying that soon as a good chance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I recommend it.
		I mean, by all means.
		You know, people trying these things by themselves is a really good idea.
		Usually.
		Usually.
		Expert NAID.
		There are some things that you should not try at home that are dangerous.
		But when one comes along that you can try and verify yourself, by all means.
		Canada's number two privately owned national television network, according to Sammy from Ottawa, said in its 6.30 newscast, the weather is Canada's number one story today.
		According to Canada's Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, the weather is only number six in the news, but this one, the privately owned one, is where it's listed.
		He says, I can't blame him because in Ottawa, we've already had, listen to this, folks, three times the normal level of rainfall.
		Farmers near Montreal would have had more success growing rice in water paddies than the more traditional crops up here.
		Now, water that might well be in Colorado right now is instead to the north where it ought not be, in Ottawa.
		Three times the normal rainfall in Ottawa, up in Canada.
		Now, isn't that exactly what we said would occur, that weather conditions would begin moving north?
		That appears to be a process well underway right now.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
		I want to give you...
		Okay, hang on a minute.
		Okay.
		Always, folks, have it next to you so that you can turn it off the minute you get on the air or you will confuse yourself.
unidentified		Yes.
		I want to give you something because you have been giving us something for so long.
		We've completely gotten rid of our TV.
		We don't have cable anymore.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		And we've got.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Big move.
		That's a big move.
		Who made the decision?
unidentified		Well, actually, the cable company made it for us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, I see.
unidentified		But anyway, what I wanted to tell you is we listen to Art Bell every night faithfully.
		And we really enjoy you.
		And I wanted to tell you, I've seen pictures on your website of your wife.
		And I wanted to wish you a happy Belated birthday.
		Take that woman out and have a good vacation.
		Would you please?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I hope so.
		If my back will permit me to walk straight, I'm sort of bowed a little bit right now.
		My back knows when I'm about to, you know, want to do something important, whether it's work or vacation.
		It doesn't matter.
		My back knows, and it goes, gotcha.
		Yeah.
unidentified		It's sort of like when with your vehicles, my mom always told me, don't talk about when you have extra money in front of your vehicles or your portfolio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or they'll take it, right?
unidentified		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You got it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotta go.
unidentified		When I think back on all the crap I learned in high school, it's a wonder I can think at all.
unidentified		And my lack of education hasn't hurt enough.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I recently had a conversation in my Firebird.
		I've got a Firebird TransAM.
		I barely ever drive it.
		We drive the GeoMetro.
		But now come to think of it, it's been acting a little strangely.
		I wonder what it wants.
		I wonder what it's going to do.
		I wonder what it's going to take.
		There's an incredible debate coming up directly ahead.
unidentified		On camera, I look to take a photograph.
		Mama's gonna take my coat from those days.
		And you is the one that I thought I could never find.
		Just find you this time.
		I know I could run.
		I trust him, but I'm the question that keeps going through my mind.
		Hey, baby.
		Isn't it time to wait?
		I've been just time to wait.
		Falling in love with me all the day.
		Isn't it time?
		I've been just time to wait.
		Falling in love with me all the day.
		Falling in love with me all the day.
		I've seen visions of someone like you in my life.
		I love the songs you now hold me through the dark sky.
		Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the Toll-Free International line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It certainly is.
		This is going to be very interesting and engrossing, and it's a good thing because it will keep my mind off other things.
		You know, you would imagine, I kind of imagine that the SETI group and Dr. Sten Friedman, who really is the father of what was discovered about Roswell, would have a whole lot in common, but not necessarily.
		They're both looking for life, but they really don't have a lot in common because one believes that life is here now and or has visited Earth, and the other thinks that we've got to be looking for it light years away.
		So they do have something in common, and yet they don't.
		So coming up in a moment, we will have a debate of sorts between Dr. Paul Schuck, also known as Dr. SETI, has been described as a cross between Tom Lear and Carl Sagan.
		Armed with a laptop computer and a classical guitar, he travels the world, making the search for life in space accessible to audiences as diverse as humanity itself.
		Since the formation of the nonprofit membership-supported SETI League in 1994, the good doctor has served as its executive director, coordinating its science mission and delivering hundreds of SETI presentations to thousands of enthusiasts in dozens of countries on five continents in more than half the U.S. at college campuses, science centers, public lecture halls, and on TV and radio.
		Dr. SETI's unique mix of science and song seeks to educate as well as entertaining and compels the listener to contemplate a fundamental question which has haunted humankind since we first realized that the points of light in the night, you know, those big points of light are actually suns.
		Are we alone?
		That is a big question, isn't it?
		And then comes Stanton Friedman, who I'm sure is convinced we are not alone.
		He received his B.S. and M.S. degree in physics from the University of Chicago in 1955 and 1956, where Carl Sagan also was a classmate.
		See, they may have commonality there.
		He worked for 14 years as a nuclear physicist for such companies as GE, General Motors, Westinghouse, TRW, Aerojet General Nucleonics, and McDonnell Douglas on such advanced, highly classified, eventually canceled projects as nuclear aircraft, fission and fusion rockets, and nuclear power plants for space.
		Stan is the original civilian investigator on the Roswell incident.
		He co-authored Crash at Corona and instigated the Unsolved Mysteries Roswell program.
		He was heavily involved in both the 1979 documentary, UFOs Are Real, and the 1993 and 96 videos, Flying Saucers Are Real.
		Stan has provided testimony to congressional hearings, appeared twice at the United Nations, pioneered many aspects of ufology, including Betty Hill's star map work, crashed saucers, analysis of the Adolphos physical trace case, and challenges to the SUTI.
		So, coming up in just a moment, these two gentlemen, head to head.
		All right, first, from way the heck up north and east comes Stanton Friedman.
		Stanton, are you there?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I'm here, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you are, remind me where you are?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I'm in Fredericton, New Brunswick, Canada, 73 miles east of Holton, Maine, which is on the border between Maine and Canada.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I'm four hours ahead of you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Four time zones, yep.
		All right.
		Well, did I say incorrectly that you would probably state that, in your view, we need not be looking out, you know, many, many light years waiting for a signal because they're right here right now.
		I mean, that's basically your position, or have been here.
		That's better.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I don't have anybody in my living room here.
		I mean, my office.
		Yeah, I'm convinced, indeed, that planet Earth is being visited by intelligently controlled extraterrestrial spacecraft.
		In other words, some underlying 46 times, some UFOs are alien spacecraft.
		Most are not.
		I don't care about them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But some are.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Some are, and I'm further convinced that we're dealing with a cosmic watergate.
		An important aspect of this problem is the fact that the best sensors, the best means for detecting strange bodies flying around in the sky are military, and the data is born classified.
		So we've got a cosmic watergate to deal with.
		I'm convinced also that none of the arguments against these two positions, and this is where Paul and I would disagree, of course, stand up under careful scrutiny.
		They all sound splendid until you look at the evidence and then they collapse.
		I'm further convinced we're dealing with the biggest story of the millennium, visiting planet Earth and cover up with the best data for more than 55 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, here comes Dr. Paul Shuck, who I doubt shares those views because, of course, he's vested in SETI.
		He's part of SETI, and SETI is the search for extraterrestrial intelligence.
		And I've had you on, I think, before, Doctor, and, of course, others from SETI as well.
		And you believe that the way to find alien life, and you don't disagree there might be alien life, you just think the way to find it is to search for a signal of some sort, whether it be radio or light or whatever, from a long, long way away.
		Is that roughly correct, Doctor?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's certainly true, Art, that one tool in our arsenal in the search for extraterrestrial companions is the electromagnetic spectrum.
		And the SETI science is the science involved in looking for this evidence.
		This, of course, does not preclude the possibility of other forms of evidence.
		And we certainly do not discourage other forms of research, such as Stan Friedman does.
		But the best tools in my personal arsenal are radio telescopes and optical telescopes and infrared telescopes and various other forms of detection of electromagnetic radiation from beyond.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if there was a report that could not be disputed of alien life on Earth or alien presence on Earth, and it really got to the point where it could not be disputed, there wouldn't be any more SETI, would there?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Oh, not necessarily, Art.
		First of all, I would be absolutely delighted if such indisputable proof were presented to me because this is what SETI is all about, of course, searching for our cosmic companions.
		And if Stan can do it, more power to him.
		I'd be delighted to see undisputable proof.
		Much of the evidence which Stan has presented is compelling, but for me, not entirely convincing.
		But maybe that's because I'm a hard sell.
		Nevertheless, such a discovery, I think, would only benefit SETI because once one extraterrestrial manifestation has been verified, then, of course, there will be tremendous interest in pursuing others.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think about that, Sam?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's no question if aliens dropped down in the middle of the World Cup soccer match, it would change things a great deal.
		But the kicker here is we're assuming that the tools for interstellar communication are observable with our systems.
		Now, I should stress that Paul has a much broader view about this than the typical SETI Institute people who seem to be stuck at the level of looking for radio signals.
		Look, within 50 years from now, we probably won't be emitting any radio signals ourselves.
		We will have direct-to-satellite communications and backdown, and much more important, we will have developed new techniques about which we presently know nothing.
		One of my real difficulties with the SETI Institute types, if you will, is they neglect the fact that technological progress comes from doing things differently in an unpredictable way.
		And that's two important areas here.
		One is method of communication.
		Yes, now people are beginning to talk about optical SETI.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And you can't pick up those signals, of course, with a radio telescope.
		But there are also, to be expected, better means of interstellar travel.
		And most of the SETI people assume that you can't get here from there.
		That's a basic assumption.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you assume that, Doctor?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I make no assumptions along those lines.
		I have to agree with Stan in some regards, but let me clarify one possible misconception.
		SETI is not a monolithic presence.
		SETI is a highly diverse discipline.
		SETI is a science, not a single search or a single organization.
		And Stanton has made reference to my colleagues at the SETI Institute, folks who I respect and often disagree with, as is the nature of scientists.
		There are a number of different organizations throughout the world doing SETI research.
		SETI is a type of search.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where do you disagree with them?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		For one thing, my friends at the SETI Institute are, for the most part, professional radio astronomers.
		Many of them are former employees of the late NASA SETI program.
		You see, the U.S. government did fund SETI for an eye-blink of human history.
		For a short moment, there was a NASA SETI office at the Ames Research Center in Mountain View, California, and that office was operating on a shoestring budget of 5 cents per U.S. citizen per year.
		That's quite literally pocket change, but in its aggregate, it did amount to $12.5 million a year.
		And in 1993, the budget balancers decided they could find better uses for that money.
		So the NASA SETI program was canceled, whereupon many government employees regrouped under the private sponsorship of the nonprofit SETI.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a little interesting history about SETI, but it doesn't say where you disagree with him.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, it does, in a way, because my organization is composed primarily of amateurs.
		The SETI Institute are very good scientists, and they have the training and the abilities and also the mindset of professional radio astronomers.
		The SETI League is another one of those organizations that sprang up in the wake of the cancellation of NASA SETI.
		And it is a group of radio amateurs around the world who have said SETI is a science that cannot be allowed to die.
		This is important research, and it's research that we, ordinary citizens, can perform.
		Now, my good friends at the SETI Institute say SETI is too complex, too difficult, too challenging, too technological to be done by amateurs.
		Whereas I, as a lifelong hand radio operator, as you are, Art, I say SETI is too important to be left to the professionals.
		That's one of the areas in which we differ.
		And it does influence our way of doing things.
		The professionals have a particular mindset and a particular agenda, which I respect, although I don't always agree with.
		And the amateurs are much more likely to be the wildcards in research in any field, in any endeavor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, but that's not a giant point of disagreement, really.
		Not really.
		I mean, you both have the same goal, but perhaps a differing way, as you imagine, to get there.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, the big thing here, Art, is that neither the amateur nor the pro groups, and I think I hope we'll give out information so people can find out about the SETI league because several people I talked to never heard of it, and I said, wait a minute, you want to interested in SETI?
		This is the way to go.
		Don't worry, we'll get there.
		Where both groups are in agreement is that no significant part of their resources are being devoted to the only data we have that clearly indicates that there is somebody out there that is the UFO data.
		The presumption is that there's nobody coming here, because if there were, they'd be looking at that evidence, which is far better than the evidence they have, that there's anybody out there sending a signal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what I was about to ask.
		Who's got the best evidence?
		I mean, SETI, both the amateurs and the pros alike, haven't found a damn thing yet.
		No big wows yet.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, in that regard, Art, I've got to state that the SETI League with its meager budget has been just as successful as the professionals in finding nothing.
		Right, absolutely.
		On the other hand, it's true.
		Stan is right.
		We have not been devoting our resources to UFO research because that's not our area of specialization.
		In fact, most accountants that I know have not been devoting their resources to UFO research either.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You must argue it should be where you're spending your money because that's where the action is, Stan?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, that's clearly the case.
		If one accepts the notion that there's a great concern, a desire to find extraterrestrial intelligence, one looks around and says, well, what can we do about it?
		If we didn't have all the UFO evidence, sightings and landings and multiple witness radar visual cases, a whole host of evidence, if we didn't have that, then you're stuck with you better do something like SETI or you're going to do nothing.
		But since we have all that evidence, I mean, the SETI people got very excited a couple years back when they had 37 signals that might be of interest out of several billion they picked up.
		None of them panned out.
		You look at the biggest UFO studies and you've got a much, much, much higher percentage, say 20% of the cases in Blue Book Special Report 14, that could not be identified after careful investigation.
		So I'm saying, let's look at that evidence.
		I'm not saying shut off all the radio telescopes.
		That would be absurd because two things.
		One, we can learn a lot about the universe.
		Radio telescopes do provide a window on the universe that gives us useful information of many different kinds, and I'm all for that.
		And secondly, who knows what more we'll find with radio telescopes.
		But I think the assumption that aliens are stuck at the level of radio signals, and now it's being expanded to optical laser kind of signals, is missing the point that we are a young civilization, that there are stars out there that are, you know, what, five, seven billion years older than the sun, even in our local neighborhood.
		I just got some new data on my favorite pair of sun-like stars, Zeta 1 and Zeta 2 reticuli.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I wonder why those are your favorites, Stan.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, for an obvious reason.
		And I think that if the SETI people were looking, and I've been trying to find if they've done any looking, it's not published yet any, if they have.
		These two stars are not only just down the street, 39 light-years away, according to the latest data, but they're both sun-like stars, and they're an eighth of a light-year apart.
		So they're 35 times closer to each other than our star, the sun, is to the nearest other star, Alpha Centauri.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I'm told we can't really see them with telescopes from the northern hemisphere as well.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		There's one other point about this.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		These two stars are roughly a billion years older than the Sun.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A billion years.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		A billion years.
		And from a planet around one, looking over at the other, it'd be 25 times brighter than Sirius's, say, to us.
		It would be awful bright.
		And you could directly observe planets around the other star from a planet around one looking over at the other.
		We have trouble right now directly observing anything useful about other stars.
		So you'd expect that there would be earlier interstellar travel.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		You're absolutely right.
		And in fact, eclipsing binaries make very, very attractive SETI candidates for several reasons.
		One of which, of course, is if there are planets around two nearby stars, members of a binary pair, if those planets are there, they know about the planets around their neighboring stars, there will be eventually travel between them.
		Even before there is travel, and perhaps even after, there will be communications between them.
		And whatever form that communication might take, if the alignment happens to be edge-on toward us, we have an opportunity to observe that communication.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But, Doctor, what about his point that in another 50 years, in all likelihood, you won't see any more electromagnetic emissions of the kinds we have right now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, basically, we'll go silent because technologies will eclipse the need for terrestrial transmission.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		It's highly likely, Ark, that the period of electromagnetic pollution that Earth is in right now is a very transitory period.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		No question about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then you're not looking for a needle in a haystack.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're looking for a needle in a mountain of hay.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's a wonderful analogy.
		I like that very much.
		Sure.
		If you take any one civilization, the odds of it being at the electromagnetic communicative stage right now are slim.
		On the other hand, if you take enough billions of civilizations, and I think Stan and I both agree that the opportunity is very great for there to be billions of technological civilizations.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		If you take enough of them, all at different points along their developmental continuum, at any given moment, one of them will be at the electromagnetic leakage stage, and there is a chance of detecting it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then they're going to be like us in a lot of ways, then, about as advanced technologically.
		Hold on, gentlemen, it's the bottom of the hour.
		I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		I've been aware the eagle flies, rode his wings across all the skies, kissed the sun, touched the moon, but he left me much too soon.
		His ladybird, he left his ladybird touch, the something inside that we need so much.
		The sight of the touch, or the scent of the sand, or the strength of an oak removed steep in the ground.
		The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
		Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing, to lie in the meadow and hear the grass sing.
		All these things in our memories are straight.
		Just call me.
		Want to take a ride?
		Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
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		And to call Art on the full-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nav.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It certainly is my guests, nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman and Dr. Paul Schuck of the SETI League.
		And it's a kind of a debate.
		It's a discussion about how we best decide if we are either encountering or have encountered alien life or should just keep spending money, not taxpayer money, I would like to add, or even keep the amateurs pointing their dishes into space looking for life that way.
		Now, there is one thing to add here, and we'll ask about that in a moment.
		That is that if there's a big signal, you know, a big signal, a strong signal coming in, kind of like in astronomy.
		You know, you ever notice that astronomers, professional astronomers, are often put into the dirt by the amateurs.
		The amateurs discover a whole lot more of these comets, it seems like, than the pros do.
		You ever wonder why that is?
		Well, it's because the pros are looking at real deep space.
		The amateurs are looking at pretty close space, and so they find these comets.
		Now, an amateur with a smaller dish and a larger beam width is more likely to hear a big signal than the guys at Arecibo.
		That's something to think about, I suppose.
		Actually, that's really interesting to think about.
		So, in other words, if we got a signal and it wasn't from very far away, you know, 30 or 40 light years, something like that.
		30 or 40 light years, I mean, it means it would take a speed of like 30 or 40 years to get here.
		So, it wouldn't be all that far away.
		It would be generated by a civilization like ours or at about the stage of development that ours is at.
		So, we could imagine then the little green guys running around with cell phones, right?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, I don't think of little green guys.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		You know that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Please, just allow the literary.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I don't think there's a problem with that.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And one of my complaints, and I put together a paper, UFO's Challenge to CETI Specialism, which is on my website, incidentally, thanks to the efforts of my guys there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's hear the challenges.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's a whole bunch of them, but I'll keep them brief.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		First is, why do the CETI specialists make proclamations about how much energy it would take for interstellar travel when this is an area of technology completely outside their knowledge, it would appear?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's a wonderful question, Stan.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I'd like to respond to that one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		For one thing, the nice thing about radio astronomy is it doesn't take a rocket scientist.
		You don't have to be a rocket scientist to listen for signals.
		But the specific question was, energy required for travel.
		I'm not qualified to quantify the amount of energy Required to travel between the stars.
		But I am qualified as a knowledgeable layman to say for any form of travel, there is some energy cost.
		It costs to commute.
		It always costs less to communicate.
		So there will be some people who will choose to communicate rather than commute.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		It's the people who choose to commute that I'm concerned about.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		And I'm interested in their neighbors who would choose to telecommute.
		And, you know, we're both looking for the same thing.
		We're looking for different manifestations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, hey, you two.
		How about this one?
		Maybe both of you want to move this one around a little bit.
		Australian scientists claim teleporting success.
		Now, they have moved in Australia a laser beam from point A to point B, and they say distance really is not an object.
		Now, it's early teleportation.
		I'll give you that.
		But if we're beginning to teleport now, the day is going to come when we can teleport a human being instantly.
		Now, if we can do that, and distance is not a real problem, doesn't that sort of throw a cog in everything?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, certainly if we have teleportation technology, we don't need the kinds of space vehicles that Stan and his colleagues have been studying and looking for.
		There's going to be a technological continuum, and we are just at the beginning of it.
		I have no doubt that we are going to discover things we cannot now begin to imagine.
unidentified		Right on.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Maybe we'll discover them through physical evidence.
		Maybe we'll discover them through radio evidence.
		Maybe through telepathy.
		I don't know.
		I'm not expert in these matters, but I can tell you that whatever we look for, what we discover will exceed our wildest expectations.
		And the only way not to find it is not to look.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		And I'm saying, let's look here.
		It's a lot closer.
		And we have evidence to begin with rather than starting off with the hope that we will find evidence of a signal of any kind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what about Zeta reticuli?
		I mean, that's a very good question.
		That's such a likely place for life.
		Has SETI totally exhausted its resources in looking at Zeta reticuli or not, Doctor?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		As far as I've been able to find, they haven't looked yet.
unidentified		Excuse me.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me emphasize, Dan, there are two different approaches to doing SETI research.
		NASA SETI had a two-pronged program involving what's called a targeted search and also a sky survey technique.
		Now, the targeted search looks specifically with very narrow beam, very high-gain antennas at particular candidate stars.
		And our friends at the SETI Institute in California have been using the Arecibo Radio Telescope to do one of the world's most powerful targeted searches.
		But narrow.
		But with a catalog of 1,000 stars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Narrow, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You said it yourself.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Very, very narrow.
		And with a catalog of 1,000 stars out of the 400 billion stars in our galaxy, they will eventually maybe scratch the surface.
		Now, this is good research because if you pick right, if you choose well with your candidate stars, you may maximize your chances of success.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But, doctor, why not look at Zetta Reticuli?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's right there.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		It should indeed be one of the stars on their candidate list, or one of the binaries on their candidate list.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		However, let me point out that for every star we know, there are billions that we never heard of that do not appear on our list.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		But shouldn't this be your neighbors we want?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Shouldn't this be like on the top 10 of the first ones you would look at?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		If I were doing a targeted search, it possibly would be on my list, but I'm not doing a targeted search.
		I'm using the other technique.
		I'm using the all-sky survey, and I'll tell you why.
		I don't have an Arecibo in my backyard.
		I have a 12-foot satellite dish as my radio telescope.
		It's a broad bean antenna.
		It's very good for sweeping out the whole sky methodically, systematically, looking not preferentially in one particular direction or at a single star, but at whole sections of the sky.
		If the technology I'm seeking is advanced enough, its signals will be so strong that I don't need an Arecibo to detect it.
		And if I'm very lucky, I'll find a signal that Arecibo could easily have missed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Ari, you heard what I said.
		Didn't you coming out of the break?
		I said exactly that.
unidentified		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, I compared you to amateur astronomers.
		In other words, who finds most of these comets?
		It's the amateurs.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		It's a very apt analogy, Art, and I believe amateur radio astronomers have the opportunity to make tremendous serendipitous discoveries in the area of astrophysics and natural phenomenon, and maybe hippers.
		The holy grail of SETI, of course, is finding confirmed artificial signals.
		We're not there yet, but the chances are very good for the amateurs.
		Now, I can't look at Zeta reticuli.
		I'm in the northern hemisphere in the southern sky.
		But my counterparts in Australia and New Zealand and South Africa, with their backyard SETI dishes, when they're scanning the skies, once a day Zeta reticuli swings through their beam.
		So, of course, it's something that should be looked at.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Sam, you must have thoughts on why it really hasn't been looked at yet by the SETI Institute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you must have some strong thoughts about that.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		There are the straightforward scientific ones.
		The spectral class is one.
		The big searches of individual stars, and right now we're talking, I'm aligning this in a sense with the search for planets around other stars where they're using optical telescopes.
		But still, the basic focus is on certain types of stars because Zeta Rate doesn't fall quite within the middle.
		Now, I would object to the use of the term binary in the traditional sense.
		The two stars are far enough apart, so there's no problem at all with having independent planetary orbits around either one without influencing the other one.
		People, when they use the term binary, mean two stars that are revolving around each other, and it's conceivable.
		Well, okay.
		That's true.
		But still, it's much more difficult to have stationary or planetary orbits around that kind of a system than when you've got two separate stars that are close.
		Zeta 1 and Zeta 2 are close enough to be useful, but far enough apart to be sort of independent.
		So there's not too close to your in-laws.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, Stan, you are convinced, are you not, that there's a gigantic cover that our government is damn well aware of conduct has to be.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, let me give you a specific example because it gets back to something that would appeal to Paul's people.
		I have twice heard completely independently, and I don't discuss this kind of thing in my other lecture when a situation arises, of military people being at a government facility where they've got a saucer on radar close by, sitting still, and where their radio antennas, and they don't have Arecibos all over the place either, are picking up signals.
		And then the military people come in, take the reel of tape, these are old stories, leave and say it didn't happen, fellas.
		Forget, even though all these people in this facility have a high-level security clearance or they wouldn't be there.
		I've heard that story twice, and I'll bet there are people listening to us right now who have been in that situation and who have, on occasion, intercepted signals from alien craft within our atmosphere because it's not only the business of set up a beacon and hope somebody out there is listening, but how do you communicate between each other?
		And those are two different situations.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		This incidentally is a strong argument for the sky survey technique.
		If you're targeting stars, you may miss those extraterrestrial interstellar probes that are right here in our local neighborhood.
		The sky survey, on the other hand, has a very good chance of picking up signals from probes, and we are very quick to admit the possibility that there could well be intelligent autonomous probes studying our local neighborhood.
		With regards to government cover-ups, I'll state two things here.
		One is that no one has ever stolen any of my data or confiscated any of my equipment, and I'm hoping they never do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you also said you haven't found anything yet.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		On the other hand, I will be the first to admit that governments lie.
		That's what governments do.
		That's what they're for.
		That's why we elect them.
		So certainly the possibility of cover-ups has occurred to us.
		One of the advantages that the FETI League has, being an international membership-supported nonprofit with 1,350 members in 62 countries, is if we do have any detections, with the level of cooperation and coordination between our members around the world through the internet and through amateur radio, it would be awfully hard for any one government to stifle our progress.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I would agree with that.
		They have stifled the progress with regard to ufology.
		And that's a key point here.
		And it's another one of my problems with the general SETI, if you will, is that it ignores the national security aspects of the reality of flying saucers.
		And there are very serious concerns.
		I mean, people act as if what we're talking about is philosophical discussion.
		Isn't it exciting?
		There's other life out there.
		If they're coming here, what about their technology?
		How can we use it?
		Will our enemies learn to use their technology, alien technology, against us?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course, even if they're not coming here, their technology would be of interest to us.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Sure, but they're not going to share it with us if they're not coming here.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		They're not sharing it with us now, I don't think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sam, if Dr. Such or his colleagues found something, I mean, really found something, do you think that they would be allowed to just go to the Washington Post or whatever with their story?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or do you think that they would be met by some fellows in suits?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I think that it depends what they find.
		If they find from the all-sky survey that some star out there, out there meaning tens, dozens, hundreds of light-years away, is sending a signal, I don't think anybody would stop them from communicating that.
		That's very different than saying if they picked up a saucer in an alien body and they want to go public, you know, on national television, I think that's where the trouble would come in.
		And that's what the government is concerned about.
		I mean, you know, you're eating your breakfast and you read about, hey, they picked up a radio signal that might be from an intelligently produced source, you know, past the butter.
		But if it landed next door and abducted the daughter of the people next door, then we get a different kind of problem altogether.
		One that has enormous impacts on the whole question of government.
		Who speaks for the planet, for example?
		Who deals with these guys?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		There are some international protocols in place that address this very question.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I'm not certain they would actually be followed in the event of a confirmed contract.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, I constantly get an email from people saying that there is a law against contact between U.S. citizens and alien beings.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that's an enforceable law, Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I didn't say it was enforceable.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		There are international protocols that have been presented to the United Nations with regard to who speaks for Earth.
		And I'll be the first to say that I don't speak for Earth.
		Heck, I don't even speak for the entire SETI community.
		But I can speak for those of us who are doing the most SETI research right now.
		The SETI League has 115 small radio telescopes on the air.
		That's more radio telescopes than the rest of the world combined.
		So I can say that we can speak for the bulk of the radio astronomers in that secrecy is an anathema to good science.
		You cannot conduct good research in a vacuum.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then we're not doing any good research.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I have to disagree with part of that.
		Some great science has been done in secret.
		The first nuclear chain reaction under the, you know, on the squash court under Stagg Field at the University of Chicago.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Is that science or is that technology?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		We must make a distinction.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it's a combination of the two.
		You can't separate the two.
		You couldn't build that pile safely without darn good science as to how many neutrons you're going to have running around as you keep adding material to the pile.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Most of the scientific data required for that first sustained reaction was publicly known, and it's only the technology to achieve it that was kept very, very secret.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		There was an awful lot of cross-section work and other stuff that was done in secret.
		I mean, you look at places like Los Alamos, Livermore, Oak Ridge.
		They've done a great deal as well as the stealth program.
		That's Technology, but it uses new science too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Manhattan Project itself?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Yeah, I mean, clearly, there are good reasons for national secrecy when working with high levels of technology for military purposes.
		I have no problem with that.
		Where I draw the line is that when there is science to benefit all of humankind, let's face it, if you receive a piece of physical evidence of a visitor, that visitor didn't come to visit a particular government.
		He came to visit our planet.
		If I receive a confirmed, undeniable, conclusive signal, that wasn't a person-to-person call.
		That was a call to our entire planet.
		And for a government to try to stifle knowledge of it, of course, it probably will happen.
		Of course, the governments are in the business of misinformation.
		Maybe they cover up.
		Maybe they lie.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		More, you really are in stark disagreement with Seth Shostak, who said, look, if we get a signal, there is no way in the world, any kind of signal.
		He doesn't even differentiate any kind of signal.
		There's no way in the world that the government could keep it secret.
		You disagree with Seth?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, I believe that governments will probably try.
		I think long-term they will probably fail.
		Because especially when you have an international effort at the level of cooperation going on within the FETI community, it would be very hard for any one government to pull the plug on a discovery issue.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, then if that's true, then, Stan, this cover-up you talked about couldn't be.
		Because according to what the good doctor just said, the government isn't capable of that kind of long-term cover-up.
		Well, hell, it's been going on since 1947, right?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, probably before that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Before.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, 1946, when Jimmy Doolittle talked to the Swedish Defense Department.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Nobody's seen a report of that about all the sightings, over a thousand sightings of what they called ghost rockets before flying saucer.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, from where I sit, Stan, in the shadow of WABC 770, one of our network affiliates at the CETI League office, from where I sit, I see that an awful lot of misinformation has been presented by governance.
		And that misinformation could very well be for the purposes of throwing us off the track.
		Now, Dr. What We Don't Know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but Doctor, you just said such a long-term cover-up wouldn't be possible.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		No, I said that eventually the information will out.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		It is already outing for an awful lot of information that was kept secret for many, many years.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Maybe Rosswell, it finally came out, and the government continues to lie about it.
		But again, the distinction is between are you covering up a signal subject to interpretation and from somebody a long ways away?
		In other words, we're not going there tomorrow and they're not coming here tomorrow.
		Or are you covering up artifacts, technology, the here and the now, a real part of what's happening on this planet?
		And those are two very different areas.
		And remember, something that gets neglected, we've been talking about radio telescopes, but in terms of observing flying saucers, the best observing equipment produces data that's born classified, the radar networks, defense radar networks, the NRO satellites, the NSA listening posts.
		I've talked to former NSA guys, National Security Agency, and they've told me there were signals, stories, things that they picked up discussions by foreign governments of UFOs all over the place.
		That's true that we don't hear about.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Stan, let's try this emphasized.
		We don't have to go that far to find evidence of extraterrestrial visitation.
		I am willing to stipulate, without hesitation, that Earth has been visited by extraterrestrial life forms.
		In fact, we are their descendants.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Holy mackerel.
		All right, hold on.
		Such agreement I never imagined.
		Such a stipulation, I never imagined.
		And yet there it was, the Massetti League guy.
unidentified		I'm down there when I'm a born day.
		It's down on a pop and a wanna rock.
		When I get a belly full of deer, one man will talk about a barrel full of monkeys and my way that she don't care.
		It's a little cute and I'm ready to move.
		I have a little breeze and I'm feeling all the snow for all my life.
		Oh, Lord.
		I remember the worry.
		How could I forget the first time the last time we ever?
		But I know the reason why you gave me such a beautiful leap would hurt us show, but the pain's too gross.
		So forget you and me.
		I'm getting calling to rechart bell in the Kingdom of Nye.
		From west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		Or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and ask them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly what it is.
		My guest, Stanton Friedman, a nuclear physicist and UFO researcher.
		And Dr. Paul Schuck, who is a SETI League member, in fact, head of the SETI League.
		And we're having sort of a discussion-slash-debate about how to look, why to look, why we're looking, what might really be the case.
		And Dr. Schuck just made a very interesting statement, stipulating right at the break that other life has visited Earth.
		We'll find out more in a moment.
		Well, Ariana, once again, Stan Friedman and Dr. Paul Shuck.
		Doc Shuck, we've got to immediately follow up because, gee, right at breaks, you said you stipulate that alien life has visited Earth.
		That's kind of a little bombshell, or is it?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think those of us in the SETI community have long accepted the theory of panspermia that was articulated by the late Sir Fred Hoyle and his colleague, our friend and member, Chandra Wigramasinge.
		Panspermia says that life on Earth was seeded by microbes that fell on Earth from beyond.
		And if that's the case, then we are, of course, the descendants of extraterrestrials.
		This is important because Stan has raised the question, which has been discussed by SETI scientists for years, about how other beings from far beyond Earth could possibly be humanoid in appearance.
		And, of course, my answer to that is if we have a common biological basis, then it's not at all surprising that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, we're kissing cousins.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		We could well be relatives.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right.
		Well, then, why not Mars?
		I mean, look at the big announcement we just had about Mars.
		My God, enough water frozen on Mars to cover Mars 1,500 feet deep with water all the way around.
		That's a lot of water.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I believe there probably was life at one point on Mars and may still be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, gee, now, where would that life have most likely gone?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Probably subterranean.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Probably it still is at the microbial stage or maybe it's not a massive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's go back to the seed, shall we?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Seed theory, right?
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So let's see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What's closest to Mars?
unidentified		Hmm.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course, Earth.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		You think we're Martians?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about that?
		How about that?
		Yes.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		How about we're being somebody's colony from a million years ago?
		I like the idea of us being a, well, I don't like the idea, but of us being a penal colony where they dropped all the bad boys and girls here.
		That's why we're so nasty to each other.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		You probably were.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to send you to Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We probably were a penal colony.
		I see signs of it everywhere.
		Corporate America, government, everywhere.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I mean, look, Georgia and Australia were settled by prisoners.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Anybody in Georgia listening, please don't worry about it.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		That's not a personal insult.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		This is interesting speculation, but I think we have the opportunity to do some hard scientific research here.
		Certainly, if we do discover extraterrestrials in whatever form, artifacts, visitation, radio signals, robotic probes, any of these gives us an opportunity to learn a lot more about our origin, our history, and perhaps our future.
		And that's what's both SETI and STANS research, which I like to call SET V, SETV, Research for Extraterrestrial Visitation.
		Both of these forms of research are seeking the same goal using different tools.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but there's a difference in the immediacy.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		If the government recovered a crash-flying saucer, two of them actually, in Roswell, and wreckage pieces as well as bodies, that puts a whole different look at things than, say, listening for signals.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's no question that the government recovered something at Roswell.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		There's no question that something crashed in the desert on, I think, July 5th or so of 1947.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll make it the second.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'll go along with that.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Okay, given that something crashed and something was recovered, the question is, was it something of theirs or something of ours?
		And the nice thing about government cover-ups is what I like to call the red, white, and blue herring.
		And that is, if you don't want somebody to find out what you're doing, you deny it implausibly.
		And then you deny the counter-argument implausibly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Dr. Shuck, you did see the infamous Roswell news conference, didn't you, with the dummies that they held up and all the rest of that?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, there's all kinds of misinformation that's being put out.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I mean, we know there was no weather balloon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, that was our balloon.
		But that was our government.
		And they said it was a weather balloon.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Now, the reason I would say it's a weather balloon if I were trying to cover up my own exotic spacecraft is because then afterwards I can say, alien spacecraft?
		What do you mean, alien spacecraft?
		I never said that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait a minute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you suggesting we had exotic craft of the kind you're talking about in 1947?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		47.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I think the possibility is pretty good that we have today and had then things that the public cannot possibly imagine.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		There's a difference between saying we had things that the public can't imagine and saying we had a wreckage of an intelligently controlled extraterrestrial spacecraft with bodies.
		A very big difference.
		And of course, the cover-up, you know, Roswell has gone to be a big name in ufology, if you will, and I'll take credit for that to some extent.
		They just became an all-American city, would you believe?
		But only 10 were named, and they're one of them.
		And I'll be there on the weekend, the anniversary weekend, and with thousands of other people, I guess, speaking on Saturday, the 6th of July at the Roswell Museum.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, are you going to be going down to celebrate with Sam?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		No, unfortunately not.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to be at Green Bank, West Virginia at the National Radio Astronomy Observatory, where I have my one week a year of telescope time on the 40-foot dish.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, darn.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		And one thing that Paul is way ahead of me.
		I don't have either a laptop or a guitar, so I can't compete with him on that sort of project.
		But the Roswell story is interesting because the government, I didn't see it.
		There was a History Channel program the other night.
		We don't, in Canada, get the American History Program, unfortunately.
		And the other way around goes, too.
		There's going to be a program about me tomorrow night.
		Well, tonight now from where I am.
		Stanton T. Friedman is real, but you can't see it in the U.S. Well, does that mean that you're not real in the U.S., Stan?
		I'm a dual citizen.
		I turn my face whichever way I feel like, but that's on the Space Channel, which you believe, in Canada, but not in the U.S. Tomorrow night, 8 o'clock Eastern, 7 o'clock Eastern, 8 in Atlantic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we're heard all across Canada, so we'll get lots of reports.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		That's why I mentioned it, Art, because I know that you're, what, 37 cities in Canada that are in the United States?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, all over the place, sure.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		And all over the U.S. If you'll indulge me just a second, Art, I have to take advantage of your wonderful transmitter here to say hi to my brother-in-law in Anchorage listening on KENI 650, and my daughter in San Francisco listening on 560 KSFO, and of course, my wife Muriel in Williamsport, Pennsylvania at 1400 WRAK, where she listens to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You scattered all over my affiliates, aren't you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You and your family.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, it's a big world out there, Art, and you're all over it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're seeds, actually, Doctor.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		In fact, my extraterrestrial descendants.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Doctor, look.
		Stan obviously believes that two, at least perhaps two craft crashed at Roswell, and bodies were recovered.
		Now, are you willing to go that far?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm willing to say that we certainly were testing space vehicles of our own at that time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, I didn't say that.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Probably with some sort of primates aboard.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		So certainly, if we have monkeys on a captured German A4 and it crashes, we're going to recover bodies that look humanoid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Stan?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		No indication that everybody has, a lot of people have looked at that possible explanation.
		It's a natural White Sands missile range is over the mountains 100 miles west of, well, a little more than that, west of Roswell.
		The monkey experiments didn't start until later.
		I believe we know some of the key witnesses were part of the 509th, the only atomic bombing squad in the world.
unidentified		I talked to people who were there.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		If it doesn't fit, you must acquit.
		It wasn't a balloon.
		It certainly wasn't a mogul balloon.
		It wasn't monkeys.
		It wasn't crash test dummies.
		Although, you know, interesting, the Air Force has really discovered something new.
		They discovered time travel for crash test dummies.
		They dropped them in 53 and somehow they were observed in 1947.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Now, that doesn't surprise me at all because I would imagine that the energy costs of time travel are on a par with or maybe even less than the energy requirements for interstellar travel.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the things about energy requirements, and in my paper, which is on my website, which goes into this in considerable detail, is that the energy requirements depend on your mission profile, so to speak.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But wait a minute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is interstellar travel time travel?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Oh, to the extent that you dilate time when you approach the speed of light, absolutely.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		In fact, radio telescopes are time machines because we're looking backward in time the farther out we look.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes, but you don't appear younger after you've been staring in the eyepiece for a while.
unidentified		Well, I'm looking at the farmer older.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Wrinkles around the eye.
		What have you been doing?
		I've been looking through this telescope.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My back hurts tonight.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, Stan raises an interesting point about a possibility of time travel, and I will accept that the interstellar traveler hypothesis is an interesting one.
		The time traveler hypothesis is also an interesting one.
		And I don't believe we really know which or maybe some alternative hypothesis.
		There are a lot of unexplained phenomena out there.
		That doesn't mean they don't exist.
		It just means we haven't yet explained them.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		But the fact that we don't, it doesn't matter how they get here.
		The question is whether they're here or not.
		In other words, people come to me with that, well, how about time travel?
		I say, look, I don't care whether they get here on the kind of fusion rockets that I worked on 40 years ago, God forbid, or any other system you can think of.
		The question is, are we dealing with intelligent life that originates elsewhere in time and space than planet Earth?
		My answer is yes.
		Am I smart enough to know the latest in technology for zeta reticulins?
		Of course not.
		I haven't been around that long.
		I don't know that much.
		Our civilization, I mean, one of the things that's happened in the past century is a recognition of how deep our history is.
		You know, you go back to Bishop Usher a few hundred years ago, and, you know, 6,000 years, that's it.
		That's the lifespan of Earth.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I thought it was more like 4,000.
unidentified		What?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I thought he put it more like 4,000 years.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		4,000 B.C. Oh, okay, very well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		6,000 total years that everything has been here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I interviewed somebody just like that last week.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, that leads us into an important question.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Stan, do you believe in a supreme being?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Depends on how you define it.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		If you want the astronaut, the chief astronaut for the local neighborhood, I suppose I do.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Okay, does that chief astronaut, is he intelligent, he or she, or it?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Is this an intelligence?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I think there may well be some form of what I would call super intelligence because I don't know what else to call it.
		I think one of the things, we get sidetracked when we get into UFOs and radio telescopes about the physical world.
		And I think aliens would know a great deal about the spiritual world.
		Call it telepathy and reincarnation and the whole business of karma and all this kind of stuff.
		I think when you study biology, you learn to live a long time, and you learn to live a long time and have super, super computers, you develop wisdom, and then you might find out that there's more to life than the physical hard stuff, the chairs we sit on, the people we see.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		True.
		Well, I think it's safe to say, Stan, that the majority of our listeners believe in some form of supreme being, intelligent being from beyond Earth.
		Given that, I think we all believe in extraterrestrial intelligence, and now it's just a question of which manifestation of it we choose to study.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you believe in the radio or perhaps the spiritual?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you, Dr. Sush, believe in God?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I believe in a form of God.
		Now, I was raised Jewish, and I have a lot of trouble accepting the Old Testament God, the wrathful, vengeful God.
		My vision of my supreme being is a little more gentle and a little bit more forgiving.
		So you're sort of a cherry picker, then there's too much diversity not to have been developed through some sort of an orderly process.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're a cherry picker, too, Stan, right?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess you'd have to say yes, Art.
		I was raised Jewish as well, sang in the choir, you know, the whole business.
		And my notion, I think it's an insult to the concept of God to think of one little planet, and this is it, and that's all there is, and that's all he's managed to do, because then he's been a failure, if you look at us, a primitive society, major activity, tribal warfare.
		My goodness, this is God.
		But if you look at it as this is an aberrant place that has missed the way, when I said before, primitive society, then it takes on a different view.
		And, You know, these are interesting times with what's happening in the Middle East and with everybody invoking God, most of the world's problems right now seem to be sort of religion-based, whether it's India, you know, or the Middle East and Ireland is simmered down a little bit.
		But there are serious problems all over the world that have to do with is there a God and whose side is he on or he on.
		So that's an area that I tend to stay away from only because what can I do about it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it might come back to the E.T. question because considering our present behavior, would any civilization that advanced consider contacting us or quarantining our city?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I think quarantining.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, if God created extraterrestrials, which I believe is a distinct possibility, then perhaps we can learn more about ourselves and our spiritual heritage from our cosmic neighbors.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm saying they're coming here.
		Let's the government open up the books and let's find out.
		There is another point here, too.
		Are we worth talking to in the sense of equals?
		I don't think we've demonstrated competence to be a member of a galactic federation.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I certainly don't expect that anybody's going to be beaming Encyclopedia Galactica our way, unless we just happen to be incredibly lucky.
		The best we can hope for realistically is to intercept somebody else's interstellar communication.
		If we are able to eavesdrop, at least if we can answer that fundamental question, whether they're here or not, if we know that they're out there, maybe we can look here and look into ourselves and learn something.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I think aliens would realize that we haven't learned to look after ourselves here on this planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You do know we haven't been sending out signals.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, other than the ambient radiation that occurs from Earth, or even the microwave or military radar, other than that, and one attempt early on at aerosol.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		There have been two attempts earlier.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Even one, even two, who cares?
		Two.
		Very short attempts.
		I'm talking about a sustained high output transmission just to bang away at the universe and send a signal.
		Now, we're not doing that.
		Do you two agree on why?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I, first of all, don't agree that we shouldn't be sending out signals.
		Many in the FETIC community think that we can't give our position away.
		I think it's too late to worry about that.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I know we're here.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I think we really need to send out a CQ.
		And I believe that the political winds of change will blow in that direction.
		Right now, this is prohibited, but I think that will change.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why is it prohibited?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Oh, there's been action through the UN to prohibit the deliberate transmission to extraterrestrial civilizations.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I think we live on a paranoid planet, and perhaps for good reason.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe it's because they know something.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Or maybe it's because they are just plain afraid of the consequences of their actions.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Either way, I think at some point we will have to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know what, guys?
		That's another thing we want to talk about.
		Maybe we should be afraid of the consequences of those kinds of actions.
		Who's to say they're going to be friendly?
		Anybody know that for sure?
		That they're friendly?
unidentified		No.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		But except that they've been here long enough to say if their intention was just to swat us like a fly on the table, they haven't done it.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, on this much, I think Stan and I can agree.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		If an extraterrestrial civilization is malevolent and sufficiently advanced, we're already goners.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, not much we can do about it.
		Bye, fellas.
		You know, enjoy.
		And some people have suggested that one of the reasons for the cover-up is the government knows something absolutely terrible is going to happen, and there's nothing we can do about it.
		So, you know, eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die kind of thing.
		I don't have to buy that viewpoint because I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On that point of view, I want to ask about Planet X. Hold on, gentlemen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Planet X. Not much time.
unidentified		Time, time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Time, time, time.
		Not much time, the Planet X people say.
		I think we'll ask if it's all baloney in their opinion.
unidentified		I think we'll ask if it's all baloney in their opinion.
		See what's become of me.
		While I looked around for my possibilities, I was so hard to please look around.
		Everybody hit the phone.
		I'm falling down the spiral, destination unknown.
		No God's messenger, all alone.
		Can't get no connection, can't get through.
		Where are you?
		Well, the night with heavy arms kills me in mind.
		Let's fall from the borderline.
		Nothing will be anything.
		Help my friend as good as my life's home.
		Let me get out here if I keep home.
		Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast A.M. with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nigh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is indeed Dr. Stant Friedman.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		His assist Stant Friedman is my guest.
unidentified		Along with Dr. Paul Such.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Shuck.
		I'll get it right.
		I can never get that right.
		Dr. Paul Schuck is my guest, also from the SETI League.
		And by the way, if you'll go to my website under Interact, you'll find out the Team Art Bell, the SETI Team Art Bell, the SETI at Home Team Art Bell has been resurrected, and we're going to go rock them again.
		Again, get to my website under Interact, and you will find under New Management an all-new Team Art Bell, SETI Team Art Bell.
		So, you know, I do support that.
		We need to get out there and get units under our belts, because who knows, it may be one of you that does the big wow out there.
		All right, it seems to me that these two guys don't really disagree with each other at all.
		I mean, maybe I'll be proven wrong here, and we're going to try that here in a moment.
		But it seems to me that I could have had probably a bigger debate between Dr. Paul Schuck and somebody from the SETI Institute.
		Dr. Schuck, what do you think about that?
		I mean, if I had Seth Shosak here, it seems to me you've got more disagreement with him than you do with Seth Friedman.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, Seth and I have respectfully disagreed for years about many of the specifics of our research, but the fundamentals, I think we are in agreement that we are in a universe that's teeming with life.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, and that we have at least one set of tools that has a fighting chance of detecting that life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, but again, I'm willing to say it again.
		Maybe you don't want to admit it, or maybe you do.
		You would have more difference with Shozak from the SETI Institute than you do with Sam, yes?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, Sam and I have some disagreements also.
		I think SETI, like all science, demands a healthy skepticism.
		And my approach to Seth's research, to my own research, to Sam's research, is show me undisputable facts.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		That's the key point in my article about UFOs' challenge to SETI specialists is that all the SETI people, the SETI Institute people, if you will, present company accepted, however you want to put that, ignore the facts about flying saucers.
		They all mention flying saucers.
		UFOs shows up in all the books, but never with any reference to the huge amount of data.
		They're proclamations without a basis.
		And as a scientist, I am personally affronted when scientists make proclamations without having done their homework.
		It's easy to say there is no evidence or the evidence isn't convincing.
		Without dealing with that evidence, what meaning do those claims have?
		None, as far as I'm concerned.
		In other words, if you look at the references given, I reference SETI stuff because I try to pay attention to it.
		I'm interested in the search for extraterrestrial intelligence.
		When they talk about UFOs, they don't reference any of the large-scale scientific studies.
		That's one of my pet peeves.
		If you're going to talk about, make a pronouncement from on high because you're Professor so-and-so, Dr. So-and-so, whatever, editor so-and-so, they're just as bad, then you should study the evidence first.
		Personal opinions aren't the same as professional opinions, to my mind anyway.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		That is why, and precisely why, I defer to experts in the field of ufology, people like Stanton Friedman, who have done their research.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Now, Stan has been one of the first to admit that there are in the UFO field charlatans, and of course there are in the SETI field as well, so we have to be very careful when we analyze data new data we're looking at.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		What did you just say?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		You mean there are charlatans?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		You've said yourself that there are charlatans in the UFO field.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		And there are charlatans in the SETI field as well.
		Certainly.
		In all fields, there are people who would distort their facts.
		We had proof of that three years ago, last time I was on this very show, with the EQ Pegasi hoax, a claimed detection that turned out to be totally bogus.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		While we're on the subject, either one or both of you want to comment on Planet X?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		Yeah, I've done some recent looking.
		I'll step back from that and say some people are claiming there's a huge planet out there that's going to destroy because it's going to come close.
		What is it?
		It's June of next year, isn't it, aren't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In the spring, yes.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay, in the spring.
		And I went back to try to find out, well, where does this come from?
		And I found out that the problem is that excellent astronomers like Robert Harrington from the Naval Observatory, many years ago, looked at the calculations of the orbits of the planets and found that they weren't quite right.
		The measurements didn't match what the calculations showed they should match.
		And so they started looking, maybe there's another body out there.
		I mean, Pluto, you know, it affects the orbits of two other planets nearby.
		Uranus and Neptune, the same thing.
		We inferred their existence and then looked, and, gee, look what's there.
		And it turns out two things have happened.
		One, we've discovered there's a whole bunch of stuff out there in the Kuiper belt.
		Lots of little pieces of flatsum and jetsum, I don't know, planetary material if you want to call it that, are out there.
		None of them are very large.
		Well, no, we're not.
		But we also found out, and here's the key thing, that those calculations were actually somewhat off.
		There are no residuals, as they say, differences between observation and measurement.
		The calculations weren't up to snuff, and we can do a much better job today.
		So I am not at all convinced that there's a planet out there, and certainly not one that's going to bother us next year or the year after or any time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let me quickly read from ABCNewnews.com.
		Astronomers may have found hints of a massive, distant, still unseen object at the edge of the solar system, perhaps a tenth planet, perhaps a failed companion star, that appears to be shoving comets toward the inner solar system from an orbit 3 trillion miles away.
		This comes from two teams of scientists, one in England, one at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette, independently report this conclusion based on the highly elliptical orbits of so-called long-period comets that originate from an icy cloud of debris far, far beyond Pluto.
		We were driven to this by rejecting everything else we could think of, according to the University of Louisiana physicist Daniel Whitmer.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's interesting, Art, because that's consistent with the nemesis theory that's been articulated for the last 25 years or so by Muller at University of California at Berkeley.
		And the nemesis, the unseen companion star, hypothesis suggests that there is a massive object that periodically dislodges comets and lobbies them at Earth, and that explains the periodic mass extinctions that we have seen.
		It's a good hypothesis.
		If it's true, then we have several billion years to go, or several million years to go, rather, until the next mass extinction on Earth.
		So we better get working on our interstellar travel right now.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		It means I don't need to worry about it if it's several million years.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		No, but our descendants will have migrated by then, we hope.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, Paul, would you say there is real evidence that such a massive object exists, or is this something that falls out of I can't find another explanation, so it must be it?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		There is certainly good circumstantial evidence that something caused the mass extinctions, and that something most likely was dislodging of comets.
		Now, what physically is causing that disruption of the Oort cloud, I think you've got to ticket hypotheses here, and this is a workable hypothesis, but it's not really being proven.
		On the other hand, it's awfully hard to disprove.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		All right.
		Well, at least I wanted to touch on it.
		So where would you two say the biggest areas of disagreement between you two are?
		I see you two as pretty close, frankly.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		We are very close because we are both, I like to say, I like to think we're both responsible scientists.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Where we differ is in how we choose to apply our resources.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, is Seth Shostak a responsible scientist?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I would say he is, even though he and I disagree on many details of how to do research.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		More details than you disagree with regard to Stan?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'd say it's on a par.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, that's as close as we're going to get, I guess.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the major differences between Stan and yourself would be in how we choose to apply our limited resources.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I am schooled as a radio astronomer.
		I am a lifelong radio amateur.
		I like building antennas and receivers, and I'm good at it.
		And this is an area where I can physically design and experiment and test hypotheses.
		I don't know how to design an experiment to cause an extraterrestrial spacecraft to land in my yard.
		But I do know how to design an experiment to cause extraterrestrial photons to land in my yard, so that's what I concentrate on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Stan?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And my approach is that my background leads me, having worked on far-out advanced technology systems and worked under security, which Paul has too.
		So he's not ignorant about security, and he doesn't make some of the strange comments that have been made by setting specialists about national security.
		I want to look at the evidence that they're here.
		I want to look in detail.
		I've been to 19 archives, look at some government documents we have, like the Operation Majestic 12 documents discussed in Top Secret Magic, M-A-J.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		By the way, I have to compliment you on that very fine book, Stan.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Well, thank you.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		It's still available from me, even if the bookstores don't carry it anymore.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, everybody's right about limited resources.
		Now, Dr. Shuck, if you have read his book and if you became convinced that, in fact, we have been visited and or are being visited right now, why not take your resources and apply them to search for what may be already here or in orbit or has been here or taking your money and trying to prove that it's already happened.
		And so what are we looking for?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I think you've always resources for that, aren't you?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Although I'm not totally convinced, I'm certainly open to the possibility.
		Why I do not choose to do that search myself?
		For the same reason, I do not choose to try to make a killing in Wall Street.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		You're more convinced.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's got to be because you're more convinced that it's baloney that they have necessarily.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		There are people like Stan who are doing the research and doing it in a credible way.
		I will defer to them.
		Stan uses the term SETI specialist.
		I think this is an important term and an appropriate one because we do in the sciences and in technology tend to specialize.
		We put our skills and energies to work in a direction where we think we can make the greatest contribution.
		There are a lot of people out there who are capable of doing UFO research.
		I salute them.
		I wish them well.
		I am one of many people capable of doing astrophysical research using radio telescopes, and I will continue to concentrate on what I know best, and I'll encourage Stan to concentrate on what he knows best, hoping that we will, of course, share our findings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, if you were to find a very loud signal with your 12-foot dish, like the 12-footer I got back here, who would you call first?
		Would you call a newspaper?
		Would you call the government?
		Would you call Stan?
		Would you call me?
		Who would you call?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		The protocols that the SETI League has adopted are that we run, first of all, a diagnostic on our equipment to make sure that it's not lying to us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm saying you've already got the wow, wow.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Then we have to run a diagnostic on ourselves to make sure we're not lying to us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Then, with 1,350 SETI League members around the world, we have our own email lists through which we disseminate this information in a systematic way so that we can get independent verification from around the world.
		Once that has been achieved, once we are convinced that what we're seeing is real and duplicable and verifiable, then we tell everybody.
		And I'd be delighted to be on your show telling everybody through your wonderful audience and your great radio network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I can assure you, I can assure you that once you sent out the emails, you'd be telling everybody.
unidentified		Right.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		This is our intention.
		This is not the sort of thing we would want to keep private or secret, because after all, this is a message that impacts all of humanity.
		If we manage to receive a verifiable signal, we all need to know about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And if our government were to come to you before all the emails went out, somehow they found out, just before all the emails went out, and they came to you and they said, look, Doctor, you've made a great find.
		This is something we've known about for years.
		This is an absolute national security issue.
		It's an issue for the security of the entire world, in fact.
		And we're asking you, as a patriotic American, to hold off.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		That puts me in a difficult position because I can respect national security needs to a point, but the question is, how long would we hold off?
		And that's a difficult one to answer without having more specifics.
		I would probably want to know A little bit more about why they're making that request before I would know exactly how to respond.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		But it's kind of moot because by the time I've verified the signal, my colleagues in Eastern Europe and Australia and South Africa and Asia have already verified the signal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you'd already sent off the emails.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, the process of verification is already pretty well underway to the point that as soon as something is detected by one station, there is a closed email list that immediately relays the coordinates and the frequency and the specifics to all of our other stations around the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if this government that you both admit lies like a bandit and watches us all very carefully and intercepts any email that goes anywhere, anytime that seems important to it, it could crush that baby in the tribs.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's the beauty of amateur radio.
		Many of our members are hams.
		Have you ever tried to stop a ham radio signal from propagating around the world?
		It can't be done.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Now, if we could only get one of these hams to find a crashed saucer, as a matter of fact, Jesse Marcel was a ham radio operator.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's a G5RV.
		That's a private joke.
		Okay.
		Anyway, so I'm still looking for areas where the two of you basically disagree, and I don't find them.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, there is an area.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Stan has said on some occasions that SETI is a waste of time and money.
unidentified		Yep.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I agree that it may be a waste, but on the other hand, it's my time and my money I'm wasting.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I'm free to waste it any way I please.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I wouldn't object to that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would it be a waste of U.S. government money, Stan?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, Congress certainly thought so, and that's why they canceled the NASA CETI program.
		Yes, I'd like to see a return of government funding to SETI.
		On the other hand, FETI is doing pretty well privatized, and maybe it's a good thing, because after all, the minute governments get involved in science, the project ends up taking twice as long as it offering twice as much and working hard as much as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, fine.
		Let's forget about the money, whether it's private or whether it's public.
		Stan, is it a waste of time?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Compared, if the question is, is there intelligent life besides from Earth, then I think the money is much better spent on serious ufology.
		But I think the government's already spending that in one of its black programs.
		So it's hard to balance these.
		The government has within its purview all kinds of efforts that we don't know about.
		The Director of Central Intelligence admitted a black budget of only $26 billion that year, six years ago.
		So I think they're already spending a lot of money on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And a waste of time.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Is the SETI thing a waste of time?
		Some of it is, but that's their privilege to waste that time.
		It's their time they're wasting.
		It's not my time they're wasting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If it was government...
		All right.
		You would specify then if it was taxpayer dollars and an open program, you would say waste of time.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		compared to other ways to achieve the same objective.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		In other words, if your objective is to find out about extraterrestrial intelligence, Doctor, that's your objective, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To find out about extraterrestrial intelligence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is your objective, right?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		And for that reason, I believe that Stan's research and ours are complementary and both worthy of time and effort on the part of those most expert in those fields.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I wonder how many PhD theses have been done altogether on the two areas.
		There are at least a dozen on ufology.
		There must be much more than that, Paul, aren't there on radio astronomy?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		There have been many dissertations written on radio astronomy, but very few on SETI, because in the scientific community stand, SETI is still somewhat of a four-letter word.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		You mean like truth for the government?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, I cannot disparage my government too vigorously here because, after all, I am part of the government's conspiracy.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		After all, I pay taxes.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I live in Canada.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		So you also pay taxes to a different government.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we're a peaceful country.
		I think this subject comes up in that documentary that's going to be on tonight about, you know, government versus people.
		Stanton T. Friedman is real.
		It's a snapshot of a life which is hard to encapsulate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, that's a second plug for you.
unidentified		Now, I want to hear about the SETI League.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, SETI League.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		SETI League plug time.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		www.setileague.org or drop us an email to radio at setileague.org.
		Leave your name and postal address.
		We'll be happy to send you a brochure showing how you as an ordinary citizen can become involved in the direct search for radio evidence.
		Perhaps not the only evidence, but certainly a compelling tool for seeking our place in the cosmics community.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, to do that, you would ideally have a satellite dish, maybe one of the big C-band 12-foot satellite dishes, and that would be enough, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Along with some few conversions or something?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what our 115 stations around the world are using right now.
		Converted backyard satellite TV dishes in the 3 to 5 meter diameter range.
		That's 10 to 15 feet or so.
		You add some electronics, which we help our members to construct, and we identify sources.
		Our SETILeague tech manual gives you a lot of this information, and there's detailed construction information in my new hypertextbook, Tune In the Universe, which is available through the nonprofit SETILeague and also linked from the Art Bell website.
		Tune In the Universe is a hypertextbook on CD-ROM.
		You read it on your computer using your web browser software.
		It's compatible with Windows, Unix, and Macintosh systems, and it leads you step-by-step through the process of constructing your own radio telescope.
		It also tells you how to do the search.
		It gives you an overview of the history of SETI, some of the technology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, we're at a break here.
		I've got to stop you.
		Stan, all of that a benign waste of time?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't think so.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I think people involved.
unidentified		That's good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Both of you hold on.
		You agreers, you hold on.
		I'm Art Bell from the High Desert.
unidentified		This is Coast to Coast, A.M. Some good morning without streak I'm
		I'm gonna open up your gate And maybe tell you about the Vajra And how she gave me life And how she made it in Some velvet mornin'with iron streams
		Flowers growin'on our hills Grindin'flies and daffled years Learn from us very much Look at
		us, but do not touch Bedra is my name To reach Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye
		from west of the Rockies dial 1-800-618-8255 East of the Rockies 1-800-825-5033 First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222 or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295 to rechart on the toll-free international line call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		These are two great men in their own fields, a nuclear physicist, Stanton Friedman, and Dr. Paul Schalk, who is headed.
		He has been head of the SETI League and continues to be involved in the SETI League.
		And they both, frankly, have a great deal in common.
		In fact, really, all three of us have a great deal in common in terms of what we're looking for, what we imagine might be true.
		So what I think I'll do is to begin opening the phone lines for the audience and let them field your questions.
		That's coming right up.
		By the way, when I'm in the next hour, 2 a.m. Pacific time, in about, I don't know, 47 minutes or so from now, I will be myself radiating heavily on 3830 on the 75-meter handband.
		That's 3830, 3830 on the 75-meter handband.
		You might find it very, very interesting.
		Ham radio is an awful lot of fun, as the good doctor, I'm sure, would tell you, isn't it, Doctor?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
		Ham radio is a training ground for all kinds of technological careers.
		I mean, you and I got our start in ham radio, and look where it's taken us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have directly ham radio to thank for being here right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If it wasn't for your ham radio, I wouldn't be here.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		And by the way, I'm looking at you art on your webcam picture right now with that beautiful ham shack in the background.
		But I've got to compliment your Arecibo Observatory t-shirt.
		Now, next time I'm going to send you a February shirt to wear next time I'm on your program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, send it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll wear it.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		What size do you wear?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Medium large.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Probably large.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Probably extra large.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I'll send you an extra large.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Thank you.
		That's very nice of you.
		And yes, indeed, I do have an Arecibo t-shirt on right now.
		Seth sent that.
		Now, what I'd like to do for the two of you is to kind of expose you to the public right now and see where that takes us.
		You're obviously pretty good friends, and you have more points of agreement than you do disagreement.
		There's no question about it.
		I think you'd probably work well together.
		You both think that?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think so, yes.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I agree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Now, this phone system may get a little rebellious when I try to bring somebody else on, so let's see what happens.
		First-time caller line, you're on the air with Santin Friedman and Dr. Paul Shock.
		Hello.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, my name's John.
unidentified		I'm calling from 610WTV in Listenery and Polumas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, John.
unidentified		Hi.
		Well, it's kind of a two-part question.
		Given the brain's capacity for storing information, it seems like forever.
		And the way the universe goes on forever, I was wondering if anyone had thought that maybe they were complementary creations.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure what complementary creation means.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not either.
unidentified		Well, coming from a biblical standpoint, I don't have much of another one, but I feel like we're supposed to live forever given the capacity of our brain.
		And the universe seems to be almost infinite.
		And I asked Art, what if we're quarantined to this planet until we get rid of the way we destroy things?
		Oh, what if God's not letting us go out into the universe because we just mess it up?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right, all right.
		It really doesn't matter.
		See, that's what I mean about phone system.
		I sound like I'm suddenly in the bottom of a barrel.
		Hold on a minute, gentlemen.
		I'm going to try and correct this situation.
		I'm not sure we're going to be able to take callers because of exactly that weird phenomena.
		And I think I've got you both back now.
		You brought up the word quarantine again.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I like to use that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He looks at it from the biblical perspective.
		But I don't think it matters whether we're talking about God or whether we're talking about a very advanced race who, to us, would be God-like.
		If they looked at our behavior right now, do you both think we'd be essentially quarantined?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, John raises so.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		John raises a good question, and I don't think we really need to look to an external force, be it a deity or an extraterrestrial force, to quarantine us.
		I think we tend to quarantine ourselves through our own short-sightedness and closed-mindedness.
		And as we grow out of that and develop a more positive cosmic consciousness, perhaps we will discover capacities in ourselves that we can now only begin to imagine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We have a situation between India and Pakistan right now that could result in nuclear war.
		And then you could imagine that it would even expand from that and, God help us, become worldwide in some twisted way that we don't quite understand right now.
		But once the bombs begin to explode, who knows?
		If there really are extraterrestrials watching us, do the two of you imagine that they would intervene or simply wait for the new real estate to become available?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I think it would be nice to imagine a benevolent external force that would want to protect us from ourselves, but I also believe that's probably wishful thinking.
		Sad to say, and of course I've been in India and I have many friends from Pakistan.
		They're both countries with so much potential and so much tragedy.
		And I really can only hope that we can transcend these petty differences.
		Because if we can't agree amongst ourselves on this planet, how can we hope ever to be admitted into the cosmic community?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Stan?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think that they would properly quarantine us, but I don't think that they'd interfere with us as such.
		In other words, it's one thing to make a mess of our own planet, which we seem to be doing a pretty good job of.
		It's another thing to let the messmakers go out and wreck their havoc someplace else.
		So I think their concern is making sure that we don't take our brand of friendship, which everybody else calls hostility, out there.
		That's what concerns me, that from their viewpoint, try to look at us as they must see us.
		And, wow, it's a pretty depressing picture.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so both of you then agree no intervention in the case of something catastrophic like the beginning of a nuclear holocaust?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		If I were writing the prime directive, I think that would be one of my basic rules.
		The pity of it all is we have some wonderful radio astronomy facilities in India, the GMRT, the giant meter wave radio telescope, using ropes and stressed parabolas and trusses to pull all this stuff together very, very cheaply, what we like to call the Indian rope trick.
		They are absolute geniuses in that part of the world at developing wonderful technology, and unfortunately, that same capacity for technology has led them to the nuclear brink.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yes, very sad comment, isn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Wildcard line, you're on with this dynamic duo here, Stanton Friedman and Dr. Paul Shock.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you hear me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We hear you.
unidentified		Great.
		Hey, Stan.
		Paul, I really appreciate you guys devoting your life to this amazing science.
		And I'm familiar with a little, what is it, Stranger in the Pentagon.
		That's interesting.
		Anyway, it's Bob from L.A. here.
		And I was just going to ask basically Paul what he thinks about that.
		Two superpowers.
		A while back, the Soviet Union had an automatic arming of the nuclear weapons.
		And they had a system where their systems all went up green.
		They all went down red.
		And they contacted the United States, our president, and our Pentagon of what happened, and there was an investigation into it.
		And we both made, we started disarming ourselves after that event.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, caller, let's add to that a little bit.
		There was an event here in the U.S. in which saucers were seen hovering above ICBM installations, and they shut those damn things down.
		Now, we know that to be true.
		Then an event occurred in the Soviet Union, a similar event where actually they went into countdown.
		They ripped those panels apart trying to figure out how it happened, but there were saucers seen there as well.
unidentified		That's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, yeah.
unidentified		Exactly.
		And guess what came of this?
		We got SDI, and the Russians are building it, and we went together.
		It's a joint effort between the United States and the Soviet Union.
		So if we both built a system like SDI, who's the enemy?
		And I think it's those individuals who are in those craft making our nuclear weapons enable to be launched.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Stan, you probably let me reset everything once again.
		Hold on.
		Let's see, reset.
		This is ridiculous that I have to go through this, but I'm willing to do it.
		Let's see.
		First, let's do that, and then let's do this.
		See, I think we just lost everybody.
		Having to pull so many tricks with this telephone system has resulted in my losing both of my guests.
		I'll tell you what I'm going to do.
		I'm going to get hold of Stan first because I think he should be the first one to respond to this.
		It did happen, and we've heard this from all kinds of people.
		Okay, so let's first get Stan back.
		This is going to make it very difficult to take calls because we're going to constantly lose people the way the setup is running right now.
		Stan, are you there?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, you obviously heard the whole question.
		This is an amazing story, and I don't know if you can address this caller's concerns.
		I mean, he was saying, look, they stopped ICBMs here.
		They actually put Russians in launch condition, and then shortly thereafter, we all began to talk about disarmament, and we began to talk about, and, you know, the wall came down, that wall came down, and all the rest of it.
		Isn't it possible that there was a really big demonstration made, and it was so convincing that both powers said, well, okay, we see what you mean?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I think it's certainly possible.
		There's so much going on in that realm of high-level military actions.
		We don't hear about hard, well, we hardly hear about any of it in general.
		We're fortunate that some of the people involved on the U.S. side on the shutting down the ICBMs, a guy named Salas and others have been willing to talk about it.
		But we don't know how many more times that's happened.
		And so it's.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But can you confirm the basics of what that caller said?
		That, in fact, our ICBM sites were, there were things hovering over them in those ICBMs.
		That's a true story?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's a true story.
		I've talked to the guy who, one of the people who was involved.
		There's some documentation around about it.
		Yeah, it happened.
		It's a scary.
		It's scary from a government viewpoint because if aliens can do it, maybe our enemies can do it too.
		You're here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, and then I believe I saw, it was like a 2020 or one of those programs on what happened in the Soviet Union where they actually went into a damn countdown with ICBMs with craft hovering over.
		I mean, that's serious stuff.
		Is it possible, then, that both governments understood that what they were doing had to stop?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I think it's possible.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		But whether you convince the guys in the White House and the Kremlin forever, you know, because things change.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about you, Dr. Shuck?
		Are you aware of these stories?
		Do you put them down as myth, or do you think they might be so?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have no direct knowledge of the extraterrestrial craft that are alleged.
		However, I do know that there have been times that we have gone to high alert and then stood down.
		I want to thank Bob for the question.
		For one thing, it shows us that there is intelligent life in Los Angeles.
		Now, in fact, the former Soviet Union had a very strong SETI program.
		I know they have extremely high level of interest in these matters.
		But I think what the story tells is more important is about our own terrestrial communications capability.
		I'm not giving away any government secrets to say that I was in the 1960s in the Air Force in communications, and I did some work with the White House Communications Agency.
		So I'm no stranger to hotlines.
		And I can tell you that it's a great relief to me that when we reach a high alert state, there is communication between the heads of government.
		And more than once, it has prevented war.
		No matter what had stimulated the arming of the missiles, the fact is our leaders on both sides had the good sense to talk to each other.
		And I think that is our hope for the future, is to maintain good communication worldwide.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, gentlemen, here's another one for you.
		Since it's so hard to go to the phones, everybody, if you would, just fast blast me the questions, and we'll do it that way.
		You can do that on my website.
		All right.
		Dr. Stephen Greer of the Disclosure Project, CSETI, just wrote a pretty, I think, important white paper to consider.
		And I had him on the program last night talking about it entitled Cosmic Deception, Let the Citizen Beware, and boiled down.
		I mean, it's fascinating reading.
		I don't know if either one of you have yet read it.
unidentified		Not yet.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I've got it on my way.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		But not yet.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		No, I haven't yet had a chance to read it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here's what it boils down to.
		He is convinced by talking to military witnesses and people that he considers to be very credible, who have the clearances and all the rest of it, that there is in the planning stages a cosmic deception, that one way or the other, we possess technology that we have back-engineered or saucers that we have or God knows what we have developed.
		You both admit we probably have.
		And that because we don't have a good enemy right now to keep up this $1 billion a day spending on defense, there's going to be a staged event, something so horrifying, so scary, that the world would quickly unite and the defense contractors would quickly bloat as we tried to get our space war weapons ready.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Oh, science fiction authors have long speculated that it would take a common enemy to bring Earth together.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I would love to see our planet cooperating, although I would hope that it would not be in the capacity of waging war against our neighbors.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Ronald Reagan several times said, you know, if only if there were an alien Presence, we and the Russians would unite.
		I don't know what that means, really, because I see a planet on which the seeking of power is a primary concern of people of many different countries.
		And I don't know that they're willing to give that up.
		And, you know, if you have a united planet, who runs the show?
		Who speaks for the planet?
		That's a problem we haven't solved.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		George Bush.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I don't think the planet looks upon George Bush as the spokesman for Planet Earth.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Or even the son of the Bush.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I didn't say they did, but George Bush may feel that way about it.
		In other words, whoever's running the biggest organization in the country is the one that's probably going to end up running things if everything unites.
		And other president, that's what I'm asking.
		Do you believe that something could be staged for that express purpose, for fattening the contractors for building space weapons, for uniting the world, whatever?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, it wouldn't be the first time that opportunists have taken advantage of an outside event to lie in their own pockets.
		And I think Stephen Greer is right to the extent that we have the capacity for staging whatever event we wish.
		Now, whether he has inside information or not is another matter altogether.
		I think, again, it falls into the area of interesting speculation.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I agree.
		Interesting speculation.
		I am not with Steve when it comes to the notion that the government's got free energy technology and a whole bunch of other things that they're covering up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You don't think so.
		But wait a minute, Stan.
		In a way, you ought to be with him because you're saying we do have levels and levels and levels of technology above what the American people know about right now.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Most of it's very expensive, Art.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		That's a problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, I understand.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, where Dr. Greer and I part company is that he seems to attribute all of our advanced technology to extraterrestrial influences.
		I think that's selling humankind short.
		I think we have tremendous ability to develop very good technology on our own.
		Witness our ability to destroy our planet should we choose to.
		We didn't get that from extraterrestrials.
		We did that ourselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we got that from people like Stan.
unidentified		Hey, hey, hey, how did I get on the hot seat there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, you two.
		Hold on, all right?
		We're at the bottom of the air and we'll be right back.
		Set Friedman, Dr. Paul Schuck.
		My guess, I'm Art Bell.
		This is coast to coast.
unidentified		A. Yeah.
		You get a shiver in the dark.
		It's raining in the pars at me time.
		Sound of the river, you stop and you hold everything.
		A man is blowing Dixie.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Double fall time.
unidentified		You feel alright when you hear the music ring.
		Once when you were lying, I remember in your life.
		I remember where you were.
		I wonder if you think that's all the time in your life.
		Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast A.M. with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is that.
		Nuclear physicist En Triedman and Dr. Hall Schalker are my guests, both very nice gentlemen.
		Both actually more in agreement than disagreement on most points, actually.
		At least that's sort of my assessment.
		And that's just fine.
		We'll continue to sort of pummel them with interesting questions if you will remain right where you are.
		Somebody sent me a picture of a really funny billboard.
		I thought it was funny anyway.
		That was in Canada.
		And the billboard had a picture of the Canadian maple leaf.
		And it said on it, Canada leads the world in being just north of the United States.
		You know, a lot of Canadians took umbrage to that and said, well, they said a lot of things that I can't repeat here.
		I actually love Canada.
		In fact, I'm going to be traveling in Canada the first opportunity I get.
		I've traveled extensively.
		I love Canada, so I didn't mean anything nasty by it.
		It was just I thought it was funny.
		But you do lead.
		I'll tell you what.
		Stanton, I'm going to give you another shot at a plug here because not only do you lead us in being just north, but you're going to be on a program that we're not going to get to see, right?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		At least not for a while, if ever.
		There's a documentary tonight, Wednesday night, all across Canada on the Canadian Space Channel.
		It's 7 o'clock Eastern and up and down as you go east or west.
		It's called Stanton T. Friedman is Real Exclamation Point.
		It's a documentary.
		It was shot in California in Roswell here in beautiful Fredericton.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is this going to be about?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tell me about the program a little bit.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Tells you sort of my life story, encapsulated, has me a little lecturing, responding to questions about various aspects of UFOs, wandering around Roswell, giving my talk out at the Mufon Convention in Irvine, California.
		You know, you can't tell a whole lifetime, not the kind of crazy one I've led in one hour, but it's a pretty good shot at it.
		And it talks to a couple of critics as well.
		And I thought they did a pretty good job.
		I was a little worried.
		You never know what people are going to edit into things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You never know.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And the only uncomfortable part for me was listening to the critics and having responses and not being able to respond.
		I wasn't there when they were filmed.
		So, you know, that's part two, I guess.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe so.
		All right.
		Well, so we're not going to get to see it.
		Darn.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And, Dr. Paul Jacques, one more plug, if you would, for the SETI League.
		You're a really interesting group.
		You're a ham like I am.
		I have a very great deal in common with you.
		And you have, I think, a great plan, and that is to get people together who've got 12-foot dishes or better and do a little conversion and actually be out there looking.
		And you guys could be the ones, or the SETI at home people could be the ones, to find the wow signal that they're looking for at Arecibo and other big dishes that are very narrow, right?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, we don't know who's going to be the first to make the detection, but I do know that the more telescopes you have looking, the better your odds.
		And radio amateurs around the world and hobbyists and experimenters and even laymen have the opportunity to be a part of this global grassroots search.
		You can get involved by going to our website, www.SETILeague.org, or drop us an email.
		Those of you listening on the radio can email to radio at SETILeague.org.
		Or for those of you who don't have internet access or email, there is always the old-fashioned telephone line.
		The membership hotline is 1-800-TAUSETI.
		That's T-A-U-S-E-T-I.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Give me just the numbers if you got them.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		1-800-828-7384, which spells Tau SETI, T-A-U-S-E-T-I.
		That's the membership hotline.
		Don't call now because I can't answer that phone.
		I'm talking to you right now.
		But after we sign off, just leave your name and postal address on the hotline or in your email to radio at SETILeague.org.
		We'll get a brochure right off to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you guys pay for an 800 line.
		That's pretty good.
		1-800-828-7384, correct?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		That's it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Can I give my post office box address for anybody who wants free information?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		People love free information, Stan.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they do.
		Stan Friedman, post office box 958.
		Holton, H-O-U-L-T-O-N, Main, M-E, 04730-0958.
		Send a self-addressed stamped envelope.
		You'll get free information, a list of my papers and stuff like that.
		We even have a $30 special, two books and a CD-ROM.
		Send checks.
		Don't can't take credit cards now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, give the address again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nobody ever gets it first time.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, post office box 958.
		Holton, H-O-U-L-T-O-N, Main, M-E, 04730-0958.
		And my website addresses on yours www.v-j-enterprises.com slash sfpage.html.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
		Go to my website and hit the link.
		Listen, Raymond in San Leandro asks both of you: what about nobody ever seems to talk about these ocean cases.
		We have people who have been on Navy ships, aircraft carriers, who have seen large UFOs emerge from or dive into our ocean.
		Now, you've got to remember we've got more water than we've got land on the world.
		And this is a whole separate class of UFOs.
		Comments?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I need to comment that when people ask, do UFOs exist, I have to say, absolutely, by definition.
		UFO means something that is in the sky that you cannot identify.
		And certainly, this phenomenon fits that description.
		Whether it is an extraterrestrial manifestation or not, I don't know.
		But certainly, it is unknown, unidentified.
		It is a flying object, therefore worthy of study.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there have been many such reports.
		Even scarier to me, though, when it comes to Navy reports are aircraft carrier reports where, you know, four pilots go up and only two come back.
		Same thing up in the northern reaches of Canada.
		You know, several pilots scrambled.
		Some of them don't come back.
		And that may be one of the reasons they're not telling us what's going on, because we've lost pilots to aliens who say, hey, get off my back, fellas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Another subject.
		I've got a quick blast here From Lex in Virginia Beach, Virginia, and he's a contactee.
		And then there are abductees.
		Now, this gets a little further out on the fringe, abduction cases.
		Stan?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm satisfied that many Earthlings have indeed been abducted by aliens.
		Yes, I am.
		I'm well acquainted With, say, Bud Hopkins, David Jacobs, John Mack.
		I'm satisfied that their research is quite legitimate.
		What it all means, I don't know.
		One can think of reasons for, you know, whether it's hybridization or lab experiments.
		I cut up a frog when I was in school.
		Maybe alien guys to get their degree have to pick up a certain number of abductees.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		On the other hand, it could just be grad students on spring break.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, sure.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		No, I've never been abducted, and I honestly don't know anyone who's been abducted, so I have to maintain a somewhat more healthy skepticism on the subject.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I haven't been abducted either, but I do know people who have been abducted, and it's not the big difference between contactees, for whom it's a glorious experience where they're being singled out to pass on significant information, almost none of which checks out as being real, an abductee where you're the subject of somebody else's experiment apparently, you know, like a rat in a lab maze, there is a big difference there.
		And I'm satisfied about abductions.
		I've checked into a lot of contactee claims, and I can't find any of them that stand.
		up to careful scrutiny on Friday.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about I've had a number of conversations with a very lovely lady named Betty Hill, and she just can't stay up late.
		She'll talk to me on the phone during the day and just talk and talk and talk.
		But trying to get her to stay up late to come on the show, I just can't seem to do it, Stan.
		I know you know her.
		Maybe you can help out.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll see what I can do.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Remember, Betty's in her 80s now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm well aware of.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Not in great health.
		But I was the first to publish about the star map work that leads us back to Zeta reticuli.
		And I want to correct, I made a boo-boo earlier.
		I said that from a planet around one of the two, Zeta 1 or Zeta 2 reticuli, looking at the other, I said it was 25 to 35 times brighter than Sirius.
		What I meant was 25 to 30 times, what I should have said, brighter than Venus and 350 times as bright as Sirius.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, let's ask Dr. Shock.
		Doctor, Zeta Reticuli really does seem like a fertile ground.
		And since you're separate from the SETI Institute and you have your fellow ham operators and members of the SETI League who are down under, why not send out a message that we want that looked at?
		And could they please point that direction and do some real careful listening?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course, the SETI League has no direct influence on the star targets, the catalogs being used.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no, forget the Institute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm talking about the SETI League itself down under.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I don't think we have the resources to do targeted searching with our small dishes.
		If we did, certainly Zeta Reticuli would be on our target list along with several other very interesting stars.
		And if we get larger facilities, we'll certainly be looking at stars in both the northern and the southern sky, specific interesting stars, and Zeta Reticuli would be on that list.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Doctor, if that's true, and it would be near the top of your list, then why is it not at the top of the SETI Institute's list?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		You'll have to ask Seth next time he's on the program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		He didn't want to debate me, did he, Art?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		In fact, I can tell you that from Arecibo, I don't think they can see Zeta Reticuli.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		And they are renting time on a telescope that has very limited steering time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes.
		However, they have colleagues in a down-under.
		Indeed.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but those colleagues are doing astrophysical research, not FETI, for the most part.
		Radio telescopes spend most of their time looking for natural objects, natural phenomenon.
		If we're lucky, we can borrow a little bit of that time, or as the FETI Institute does, spend thousands of dollars to rent a little bit of that time to do FETI research.
		But most of the time, those telescopes are not available to us.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		We haven't looked for planets around them either, as far as I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We have not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're beginning, of course, now to find planets, and it's now thought that planets, even Earth-like-size planets around Earth-like stars, are going to turn out to be rather common.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		They're going to be the rule rather than the exception.
		Just as I can't very easily imagine a nucleus without orbiting electrons, around certain classes of stars, I just can't imagine them without their retinue of planets.
		We've long suspected this.
		In the last seven years, we've gotten abundant evidence.
		About 6 to 7% of the stars surveyed by the Marcy and Butler team, the leading planet hunters, about 6 to 7% of those stars, they've detected planets around, and they're just beginning to learn how to detect them.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Those are big planets, smaller ones they haven't been able to detect yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're finding Jupiter-sized planets right now.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		But that's an artifact of the instrumentation.
		If you're looking for something and you don't see very well, what you'll see is the big things first.
		If you look at our solar system from 40 light years out, you'll see the Sun and Jupiter.
		And as Arthur Clark likes to say, our solar system is the Sun and Jupiter and assorted debris.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, but if all these planets are out there, even Earth-like ones, and we have not yet heard a thing, SETI Institute or SETI League, not so much as one confirmation, not one confirmation of any stray signal that was obviously intelligent life, even sending their version of I Love Lucy or whatever.
		We have nothing, zero.
		Is it possible that the people who say, look, we've been here 6,000 years, God created us literally just the way it says in the Bible, and there is no other life out there?
		And the guest I had on last week said, if there is, it's fairly nearby, and it was seeded from earth, because that's the only place where life exists.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I'm not saying Robertson or Jerry Paul.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I'm not going to begin to limit the capacity of the divine being.
		If you have a God that can create life on earth, he can create life anywhere he chooses.
		I'm not going to tie his hands.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or, conversely, he could decide not to create life, but in one place.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Well, I wasn't given the choice.
		The fact is, if we have an all-powerful supreme being, and I believe we do, then we should find a universe teeming with life.
		I mean, my wife and I have been given the capacity to create life, and between us, we've created seven children.
		Well, the fact is, some of my friends have more, some have fewer.
		Some of my friends have chosen to have no children at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how in the world do you ever find the time to listen to anything?
unidentified		Well, the fact is...
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		He didn't stop at one, and I can't imagine a divine creator stopping at one.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Good analogy.
		I think there's life all over the place, and I think some of it's coming here.
		And it's time we recognize that as part of our view of the universe.
		It's not they're out there and here we are and never the twain shall meet, sort of Kipling revised.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, then, for both of you, because you both can probably answer this question.
		If there is confirmation, and that means the SETI League discovers a wow signal, or the saucer And the physical evidence become absolutely indisputable.
		In other words, whichever one of your disciplines turns out to yield something productive and absolute, how would that change Earth?
		How would that change, well, Earth wouldn't change.
		How would it change the residence of Earth?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I think it depends on the nature of the discovery.
		If it's physical evidence here on Earth, that will have more profound implications, I'm willing to concede, than merely the detection of a radio signal from light years away.
		The immediacy would be much greater.
		On the other hand, in both cases, the knowledge that we are not alone would profoundly change our view of our place in the cosmos.
		We would strive to become members of the galactic community, and one can only hope that we would be worthy of membership.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I don't think we qualify for the cosmic kindergarten yet.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Frankly, not even a cosmic preschool on some days when things are going bad out there.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		On the other hand, we have to consider the possibility.
		What if we do the research and do it well and come up empty, come up completely dry for generations?
		We do our best science.
		And what if we did come to the conclusion that we are alone?
		I don't believe so, but if that happened, that would profoundly influence us too.
		Because if we are the only game in town, we better take care of our local neighborhood.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about this one?
		I interview people like Dr. Michio Kaku, brilliant mind, and he says we're a type zero planet.
		And he postulates there are many, many, many, many type zero planets.
		And I don't have enough time to go through all the different types, but suffice it to say, to get from type 0 to type 1, you have to survive the discovery and the use of Element 92.
		And when I really pin him down and I say, Professor, how many such civilizations do you think percentage-wise survive that discovery and use?
		He would say almost none.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		On the other hand, Michio knows that of the sample that we have at hand right now, 100% of them have survived that stage so far.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So far?
		Us.
		Yeah, but he's looking at longer timelines.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but he's not a soothsayer any more than Paul or I. On the other hand, Michio's speculation is just as valid and just as limited as my own.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		But that's why it's so important if aliens are coming here, somebody got through that stage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, Stephen is no Oppenheimer.
		You didn't have anything to do with those sad nuclear weapons.
		You didn't.
		Did you have the opportunity?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I suppose I could have looked for that opportunity.
		I worked on more exciting technology, nuclear rockets, nuclear power plants for space.
		I never really sought employment in the nuclear weapons business.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		I'm probably closer to that industry than Stan is because during my Lockheed years, I was developing the missiles used to deliver those physics experiments.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No kidding.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		And I must say that I did that with some trepidation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And reflecting on it now, Doctor, would you have not done it?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		That's a tough question because if I had declined that particular employment, it would not have stopped the research or the development or the Cold War.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But isn't that what everybody says?
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Of course, it's true that there will always be people willing to develop weapons systems.
		In my case, there were lots of rationales.
		The Vietnam War was still on.
		It was very easy to justify my actions.
		From my perspective now of 30-some-odd years later, probably I would have stayed in academia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
		Well, I think, again, in closing here, because we are closing, we're running out of time.
		You both have a very great deal of area of agreement, not too much disagreement.
		You're both great guys, and I want to thank you both for being here tonight.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Mike, been a pleasure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night, gentlemen.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Good night, Eric.
dr paul shuch ▲ ● ▼		Thanks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Sorry we couldn't take more calls, folks.
		It was a technical issue, as you heard, with the telephone, so we just sort of grabbed them off the fast blast.
		The computer's wonderful.
		If you have a computer, you can just hire me a question.
		At any rate, I'm off to the land of 75-meter ham radio bill beyond 3830, 3.830, 3830 lower sideband, radiating electromagnetically.
		So, y'all take care.
		I'm going to go.
		What I need is somebody in high heels to stand on my back or something.
		Have a great night, everybody, from the high desert.
		I'm Art Bell.

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