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June 18, 2002 - Art Bell

02:44:40

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Dr. H. Paul Shuch, Stanton Friedman - Challenge to SETI

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	Israel suffers another bombing, bus bombing, and now it's moving, and will hold Palestinian lands, by the way, now they say, until the terror attacks against civilians there end.
	You know, President Bush was on the verge of talking about a Palestinian state, and he's been sort of talking about it, and the Palestinians are likely to change his mind.
	I think he's maybe on the verge of that.
	So the Middle East news is really lousy.
	President Vicente Fox.
	Vicente Fox.
	Somebody sent me an email saying there is no real word for Fox in Spanish.
	The name Fox.
	But Fox in Spanish means Zorro.
	Therefore the president of Mexico is Zorro.
	Anyway, Vincente Vox opened to public scrutiny nearly 80 million once-secret files that could expose a government legacy of dirty tricks and the torture and murder of opponents.
	So he says, you know, it shows that Mexico is now beginning to come clean.
	Now here's some big shaky news for you.
	You may recall Gordon Michael Scallion on the program and he warned to watch of an earthquake on the New Madrid Fault.
	Do you remember that?
	Well, the New Madrid's been really quiet except today it wasn't.
	There has been An earthquake which shook a wide area around southern Indiana on Tuesday afternoon.
	According to the U.S.
	Geological Survey, no immediate reports of damage.
	Though it was felt widely, the earthquake was centered in a rural area.
	Thank goodness if the potential for damage was low.
	Johnson said the quake was on the north arm of the New Madrid fall zone.
	The New Madrid system caused four catastrophic quakes estimated at magnitude seven or greater in the Midwest in the years 1811 and 1812.
	The quakes of over six in 1843 and 1895.
	Seven other tremors of five or better have happened in the fault system since then.
	It is said when the big one Ran backward.
	Now, this is a five magnitude earthquake on the New Madrid.
	And they just don't have any... The last ones were in the 1800s.
	And again, I remind you, less people forget this kind of thing.
	Gordon Michael Scallion said, watch for an earthquake or a shake on the New Madrid fault.
	If that occurs, look out.
	And so I'm just reminding you of what he said.
	Earlier, I got an email.
	From, uh, a young lady, uh, Stephanie, uh, I won't give her last name right now, in New York, uh, that reads, I'm 36 years old.
	I'm the mother of two children ages four, uh, 14 and seven, two nights ago.
	My seven-year-old daughter awoke horrified.
	She told me she had seen three aliens, small, like children, flying around the room.
	They were green, had several eyes, and winged-like with big heads.
	Our cat, Boo, was in the room going nuts.
	He was jumping up and down from the bunk bed to the floor.
	She said that he was scratching one of these aliens.
	The cat was.
	Then when he scratched it, they all disappeared.
	There wasn't any blood stains on the bedroom walls.
	There is, though, a brownish-like something or another that feels slimy.
	And it just goes on and on, and she gives her phone number, and so I... This is pretty weird stuff, and I thought that I would bring Stephanie on the line tonight and get the rest of the story, as Paul would say.
	Stephanie, welcome to the program.
	Oh, hi Art.
	Thank you so much for allowing me to tell my story.
	Oh, you're very welcome.
	Boy, can I hear the New York in you.
	I know I have a Brooklyn accent.
	I was from Brooklyn and moved to Staten Island.
	So, Stephanie, what is going on there?
	I mean, I just read a little bit, but this has been going on how long?
	Well, I don't know where you want me to begin.
	I could begin when I was 15, when things started, strange things started happening to me.
	You know, I could tell you the whole story or you want to hear what happened, uh, two nights ago?
	Well, um, some of the early stuff.
	Okay.
	All right.
	About age 15, I had bought a Ouija board.
	And at the time I was not aware of the dangers of using one.
	And I used to play with it just for fun.
	And, um, I had that Ouija board in the house.
	Very strange things started happening to me.
	For example, I used to sleep on a canopy bed.
	Yes.
	And the canopy top would start blowing with all the windows shut.
	It would just blow.
	And one incident in particular that scared me to death was I felt a strange presence in my room, and it was very scary.
	I jumped out of my bed, and I put the light on, and I looked at my hands, and on one of my hands was written what looked like ash.
	In ash, it was written the name of a woman, Anna Bringenham, it said.
	Give me that name again, Anna.
	Anna, I think it was B-R-I-G-A-N-H-A-M.
	And that was written on your hand?
	Right, it was sort of like in an ash, like a smoky ash.
	A smoky ash, okay.
	And then I ran into my mother's bedroom, which was next door, and I woke her up screaming, and then I opened the light in her room, and then the writing transferred from my hand to her wall.
	The writing went from your hand to her wall?
	Right.
	And she got a hud that we both could not believe we had seen, and the name Anna Bringenham was written on the wall.
	Oh my God.
	What did your mother say about this?
	Oh, she was petrified.
	And, uh, you know, a lot of things started to happen.
	Like, we had found this statue once.
	It was like an Indian warrior statue.
	And it had red, ruby eyes.
	And one night, the eyes started to glow so bright as if flames were coming out of his eyes on the wall.
	Yes.
	And, uh, I just felt there was like an evil spirit in the statue.
	And then on a few other occasions, I was scared to death, so we just, we threw it out.
	Not in front of our building, but we walked a few blocks down, you know.
	Alright, you're now 36 years old, huh?
	Right.
	You're a mom yourself.
	Right.
	You've got a couple kids, 14 and 7, and whatever this is, has it gone away, Steph, for long periods of time, or Has it, like, always been with you, occurring every now and then?
	Uh, it's always been with me.
	Always, huh?
	And I always have, uh, like, psychic dreams.
	You know, like, I had premonitions, like, I was in a bad accident when I was 19.
	And I had dreamt a dream, uh, exactly the way it was gonna happen, like, a month before it happened.
	Really?
	And, um, the policeman had said that they thought that he had died in the wrecked, the wrecked car was so bad.
	And in my dream I was instructed how to open up the car door.
	Everyone was unconscious except me.
	And I pulled my friend out and my boyfriend at the time, the two boys were in the front, you know, he went through the windshield.
	Yes.
	See, I'm already sitting here at this point listening to your story, you know, thinking, this girl opened a door back, you know, when she was 15.
	And some sort of evil spirit came through.
	Yeah, I became a Christian at 19.
	So I got rid of that Ouija board.
	I mean, I would never play with something like that again.
	Yeah, I know.
	But when a door is open, someone comes through and you close the door, all you do is lock it in sometimes.
	And so I was thinking, here's some sort of evil spirit, perhaps, frankly, inhabiting you.
	But now you're telling me that at one point, It, or something, warned you of how to escape an otherwise fatal accident, so, um... I don't know what it is.
	Yeah, exactly.
	They have both evil and an angel and an evil spirit, I don't know, mixed up there.
	Maybe.
	Two nights ago, what happened in your home?
	Okay, this is, uh, pretty, pretty, uh, pretty scary.
	Okay, it was, uh, two days before Father's Day, and, um, my seven-and-a-half-year-old daughter, she woke up panicked, and she said she saw three small aliens.
	She said they were about, like, her height, about four feet.
	And, uh, she just, the way she described them, they were green, they had horns, they had big yellow eyes with eight fingers, eight toes.
	And she said they had four eyes, the two regular eyes in the middle of the face and one eye on each side of the ears.
	Really?
	And she said they were flying all around the room.
	So our cat, Boo, He was in the room and I had noticed he was acting crazy.
	He started jumping up and down on her bunk bed, from her bunk bed to the floor.
	Uh-huh.
	And then he was, uh, his ears went back, which is he doesn't do, you know, he don't act like that.
	And he was chasing, like he was chasing something.
	And then she said Boo scratched one of the aliens and then all of them disappeared.
	And, uh, and then on Father's Day, which was two days later, I put my daughter to bed around 10 o'clock.
	I mean, my 14-year-old son decided to go down and watch some TV, because we weren't toys.
	Then we came up around 11.15, went to sleep.
	In about 10 minutes, my son started to yell to me that his bed was shaking.
	His bed shaking?
	Right.
	It was shaking.
	Right out of The Exorcist, huh?
	It's scary.
	All right, and so you went in there?
	No, actually, I sleep with my children in the same room.
	Okay.
	My husband sleeps downstairs.
	That's another program.
	You should be aware, then, that the bed's shaking, shouldn't you?
	Well, it also happened to me.
	That was one of my other stories was from when I moved here.
	You know, my bed was shaking, too, like two years ago.
	How much shaking are we talking about here?
	This is like, well, what happens to me, it would shake.
	I think it was part of a dream.
	You know, the bed would be shaking.
	Yes.
	I'm actually half-asleep and half-awake.
	But he was awake because he hadn't fallen asleep yet.
	And then he was terrified.
	He's a smart kid, so I know when he's really scared.
	So I tried to comfort him, and then we shut the light again.
	I said, maybe he'll go away.
	Then our cat booth starts going crazy again, and he started clawing around the bottom of the bunk bed where my son sleeps.
	And my, and uh, he was going crazy.
	So then my son felt some kind of, uh, some hands or something trying to push up his mattress.
	You know, and, um, he felt actually a core, a joint core try to core him, he said.
	A core.
	So then I opened up the light and, uh, he's screaming.
	And, uh, it's just, uh, then I got out my Bible.
	I'm trying to say scriptures and everything.
	I said, in Jesus name, you have no power here.
	I'll leave my children alone.
	And I said this a few times.
	I sat on my son's bed saying this and I put the nightlight on.
	And I left it on all night.
	And then the next day I see on top of the bunk beds there's like brownish red.
	They're like pointy marks.
	Brownish red pointy marks on the bed?
	Yeah, they're still here.
	No, they're on the wall.
	I see that there's five in the wall.
	It's funny because five of us live here.
	It's my husband, my mother, me and my two kids and there's five marks.
	Like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, Um, I see it, you know, I didn't know what it was.
	I saw my mother, she was like, uh, she couldn't believe it herself.
	So there's some kind of material there then?
	Yeah, it's five marks, you know, it looks like, uh, well, it looks brownish, sort of.
	I'm looking at them now, in fact.
	They're like pointy, you know, on the wall.
	I don't know, I don't know if it's, uh, the blood or the creatures that my cat scratched.
	You know, I don't know.
	I don't know what's going on.
	Normally, you see, normally I would beg you for photographs, of course.
	But you mentioned in your email that your computer is launched, I guess, huh?
	I was surprised I even got through to you today.
	You know, I was praying that I'd get through here, because if someone else was going to think I'm crazy here.
	But I know, you know, I listened to you for the past almost three years.
	You know, so I know you're programmed there.
	You know, it sounds like something has... There's only two possibilities I can think of.
	One is, something has attached itself to you.
	And it's still there.
	And you're gonna have to do something about it.
	Yeah, I don't know what.
	Or... Or... It's coming from you.
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	I also had, um... Like, a cat.
	Another cat that was 17.
	Mm-hmm.
	And he had died.
	And when he died, uh, he died up in our room here.
	So, the night he died, I buried him out in the back.
	And, um, when he died, you know, we were hearing all things up here, like thumping and running around.
	And, uh, we were just, like, scared.
	My kids were, like, clinging to me, very scared to death.
	Mm-hmm.
	And, uh, but I felt it was him, you know, just coming back to say one last goodbye.
	Right.
	And that happened, uh, It happened.
	Two years ago.
	Uh... I don't know, you know, it's a lot, a bunch of different things here.
	So, you're scared?
	I'm scared, um, because I'm a Christian.
	I believe, like, you know, we have power, power over the evil, you know.
	Well, didn't you tell me you just said, be gone in the name of Jesus, and... Well, it's still not, you know, it wasn't gone, you know.
	Yeah, I get that.
	I get that.
	Uh, you really need, I think, you need to be in touch with somebody.
	Uh, somebody who can really help you out.
	Somebody... Yeah, I'd be willing to even put a camera in here.
	Sometimes they have those things where you could, you know, the cameras see things that you can't see.
	You'd be willing to have cameras?
	Like, you know, to see if there's something in this house.
	Cause, um, there's a lot of stuff.
	And then I hear, we hear singing sometimes, like little children in the, by the attic.
	How frequent is all this going on?
	How frequently?
	Um, an investigator would ask.
	It's a lot in the summer months, you know.
	My daughter, I had gotten her two Teletubbies, uh, was it last summer from a yard sale?
	Yes.
	And the Teletubbies, in the middle of the night, we hear them singing.
	They just would start singing.
	The Teletubbies started singing?
	By themselves, yeah.
	We were petrified.
	We woke up, we were like shaking and scared.
	I threw them out, you know, I threw them out.
	You know, I'll tell you what I'll do, Stephanie.
	I've got your phone number, your personal phone number.
	So, if any investigator out there feels like pursuing this with cameras or a team, they're going to need more details, and I'll sort of screen them, and if they, you know, I'll put you in touch.
	How's that?
	Yeah, I appreciate it, because I would like to, you know, I mean, if there's something here that someone, you know, I'm the evil spirit here.
	I definitely wanted to get out of this house.
	I understand.
	All right.
	Done deal, Stephanie.
	I appreciate it a lot.
	Thank you very much.
	I love your show, and you're doing a great job.
	Thank you, and have a good night.
	You too.
	A quiet night, I hope.
	Oh, I dread to go to sleep.
	That's why I listen to you all night, you know.
	Okay.
	Take care, Stephanie.
	All right.
	Good night.
	Good night.
	All right.
	That's Stephanie from New York.
	Yeah, you know, after hearing all of that, and obviously there was more we didn't hear, that's a case, I think, of I can only consider two possibilities, but you know, who the hell am I?
	I can only consider that she has allowed something in that is still with her and may always be with her.
	She echoes of last night's program about the Bell Witch, huh?
	Or it's coming from her, you know, young teenage girls.
	Boy, again and again and again you hear about these stories, but here it is still with her.
	Here's something that I would like to help you, uh, have you all follow up on for me.
	Uh, it comes from a listener in Toledo, Ohio, Maggie.
	Maggie.
	Alright, I heard a news story this morning at 8.30 or 9 o'clock on Clear Channel WSPD in Toledo, Ohio, about a bottomless pothole in the middle of the street.
	Firefighters put a 1,000 foot line down that hole and didn't hit bottom.
	I only heard part of the story and think they said it was in a place called Washington or Washington Township anyway.
	Think this may be another of the bottomless holes like Mel's.
	Let's do a real quick break.
	Well, I almost did it again.
	I get so involved in what I'm doing that I blow right through breaks.
	I do it all the time.
	Things on my mind.
	My back is, by the way, threatening to ruin my vacation.
	My back is really giving me fits right now and it may steal my vacation from me.
	I hope not.
	So I'm doing a little Back at Better Knocks on the Wood.
	All right, listen.
	We're going to take the regular network break now, and we'll be back shortly with a couple of more items.
	Boy, there's an awful lot going on out there.
	Can you believe an earthquake on the New Madrid Fault?
	Gordon Michael said, watch for it.
	I'm Art Bell, and this, from the Left Coast, is Coastal.
	back to where we started from. Love is good, love can be strong, we gotta get right back to where we started from.
	I gave you love, I thought that we had made it to the top.
	I gave you all I have to give, but it had to stop.
	You've blown it all sky high By telling me a lie
	Without a reason why You've blown it all sky high
	You've blown it all sky high Our love had wings to fly
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	of Nye from west of the Rockies dial 1-800-618-8255, east of the Rockies 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222 or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1222.
	To recharge on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
	Well, you know, there is, kind of like this song says, the one thing I cannot abide is being lied to.
	And somebody zapped me today and it's not gonna happen again, I can tell you that.
	All this on top of my bat, right?
	Well, the Chicago Tribune out with a story today saying Deep Throat is over, the mystery solved.
	Students say, guess who it was?
	Students there say the person who was Deep Throat was Pat Buchanan.
	They've studied the issue and looked at it very carefully, and it was Pat Buchanan.
	You'd say, oh, come on.
	Pat Buchanan?
	That doesn't make sense.
	But Pat Buchanan, say the students, was really miffed with President Nixon for his overtures to China.
	So miffed that he became, uh, deep throat.
	That's not me saying that.
	That's the Chicago Tribune story on what these students, uh, I had to say.
	Isn't that interesting?
	You think it might have been?
	Could it have been?
	Pat Buchanan?
	Could it have been a...
	...
	Okay, here we go into the night.
	There seems to be some dispute.
	By the way, I'm getting word that there's a big UFO flap possibly going on in I think it was New Hampshire, and maybe my wife will come in.
	I know Peter called just prior to the show and said that he couldn't confirm anything yet, but that there was something going on in New Hampshire.
	He was getting some sort of word.
	So consider that one sort of a stand.
	No doubt we'll say before the night is over in the gray box.
	And we'll see what happens.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	I just wanted to call and inform you about the bottomless pit in Seattle, Washington, I think it is.
	Well, let's see.
	What did it say?
	Let's see.
	About a bottomless hole in the middle of the street.
	So it didn't say.
	It's in King County, Washington.
	Okay.
	Yeah, um, I heard about it on the radio today, but, um, I guess, like, the firefighters or the street people went to go try to fix just what they thought was a hole, and that's when they dropped the rope down, and then it just never ended or never stopped, and then they pulled the... Boy, I'll tell you, there's something about Washington State, isn't there?
	Yeah, I know.
	And this bottomless hole stuff.
	Um, I mean, how could you... I mean, this was in the city, huh?
	Yeah.
	I mean, they opened, like, a manhole or something?
	I don't know.
	It was, like, a hole in the street, and then they peeled the road back, and then that's when they realized, like, Oh my God, this hole goes down forever.
	Yeah, and they dropped a brick down it, and you can hear the brick bounce off the walls, but you just never hear it end.
	This is under a street?
	Uh-huh.
	So, I would say that it probably disappeared, because I don't see people building a street over a bottomless hole.
	Well, I wonder how many Chevys have gone down there.
	I don't know.
	Fords.
	For real?
	GeoMetros.
	You wouldn't even hear of Geo.
	For real?
	You'd go clink once, and that'd be it.
	Alright, well, I appreciate the information.
	Yep.
	Alright, thank you.
	Take care.
	What is it about the state of Washington and these holes, anyway?
	The middle of the street.
	Boy, I'll tell you, we live in a time of weird news, don't we?
	Again, the story I have, talking about this fault line, the Evansville Earthquake.
	Actually, the Midwest Earthquake, you ought to call it, really.
	It says Johnston, from the U.S.
	Geological Survey, said it was an arm of the New Madrid Fault Zone.
	And then it goes on here to talk about the New Madrid Fault.
	And this is from CNN.com, for what it's worth.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hi Art, this is Don in Half Moon, New York, WGY.
	Yes, sir.
	First thing, I got a couple things.
	The C-130 that crashed?
	Yes.
	Did you ever see the movie Always?
	No.
	It was Steven Spielberg, Always, with Ollie Hunter, Richard Dreyfuss.
	It was a really good movie about the pilots that flew the old air bombers that fight all these forest fires.
	Yeah.
	If you remember in the Air Force, The C-130, this was an A-type, so it's probably back in the
	Vietnam era.
	Maybe so, but still, uh...
	Yeah, but you're taking an awful lot of stress.
	That airplane is...
	It's like taking your 30-year-old car and putting it into a Daytona 510.
	I know, but both wings?
	Yeah, that stress is terrible.
	You're pulling up and, uh, you know, you're...
	It's like an A-10 attack for those things.
	You know, let's just put the stress on... I know, but those things are, they were built like tanks.
	Oh yeah, they were, but you're putting 30 years of... I've been with the airlines for 32 years.
	Anyway, I've got two stories on why they're grounded.
	One, because of the crash, and two, because the winds were so fierce in Colorado, they couldn't fly today.
	So I don't know, maybe both are true.
	I think it was a pilot on TV who said fatigue.
	We took a lot of airplanes out of service, airlines because of fatigue.
	It just gets so much, the airplane can't take it anymore, you know.
	So you look at some of those planes, DC-4s, DC-6s, all old Navy planes that are in service.
	It could be that.
	Well, maybe that.
	Just plain fatigue.
	Yeah, but they all have to go through the same...
	Oh yeah, but they don't have enough...
	Sure, sure, sure, sure, sir.
	They all have to go through the same airworthiness checkups all the time.
	That's true, but there's just not enough people to do all those functions.
	Okay, well I appreciate the call. It could be that. Well, maybe that.
	Just plain fatigue. But I still think it's really strange that both wings would come off a C-130.
	Really strange.
	Yeah, I guess it could be... You know, fatigue, cracks... Something.
	But they are all aircraft of this sort.
	Of that magnitude.
	I guarantee you are required to go through routine... Absolute routine checks for integrity of the airframe and all that sort of thing, so...
	I still think it's weird.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello, Mr. Bell.
	I have to relate this story to you very quick because there's definitely something afterlife.
	I was looking at the computer on Saturday because I used to live around Fort Myers, Sunnable Island to be exact.
	And so I usually look at the obituaries who died in that area because I know a lot of people there.
	I live in Santa Clara, California now.
	Right.
	So as I bring up I never read the article, but there was an article about Father's Day and this gentleman that founded the Edison Mall.
	It's quite a large mall in Fort Myers.
	And I started reading the article, which I never do.
	And I go to the second page, and as I go all the way down to the last picture, there were pictures in of this gentleman that founded the Edison Mall.
	The last picture shows me my son, who died 24 years ago.
	What?
	Standing in that mall.
	Walking in that mall right in front and and behind it is a bunch of scaffolding.
	How can you know for sure?
	I already called up.
	I found out it's him.
	I called Florida.
	What?
	And my son died 24 years ago in July the 8th.
	Wait, wait, wait.
	Slow down.
	Let me first ask you, 21 years ago you say your son died?
	24 years.
	24 years, I'm sorry.
	In what manner, what was the manner of his death?
	He had a boating accident on Sanibel Island, in the Gulf of Mexico.
	A boating accident?
	Yes, sir.
	And his body was recovered?
	Yes.
	And you and your family buried him?
	Yes, yes.
	Or cremated him, or what?
	Well, he was cremated.
	Now this picture is taken before he died.
	It was taken in June of 78.
	Oh.
	But what this picture is telling me, because I was looking for a job and I don't want to go to a mall for some reason, I fear malls because of the attacks.
	Yes.
	So this picture is telling me that my son is sending me the message, don't work at a mall because behind him, There's hardly anybody in that mall.
	There are two women walking in front.
	I've got the printout in front of me.
	Him standing right in front of the scaffolding and men are working on it.
	Do you think that's the message, really?
	I do.
	Well then, that's the kind of thing you better follow.
	Don't you believe in that?
	Because it's the second time he's given me messages like that.
	Ma'am, I'm not sure what I... I think I do believe that such things can occur, and if I received that and I thought as you do, I would avoid malls.
	Well, thank you, and happy birthday, Mr. Bell.
	Thank you very much.
	I would avoid malls, you know.
	You know, you've got to follow your gut on this stuff.
	As it is with a lot of life, you know.
	You've got to be true to yourself, honest with yourself, and if you're not, then you're gonna make a hell of a lot of mistakes.
	If you're not true to yourself, if you don't follow what you believe in and pursue that,
	then you're gonna make mistakes.
	And maybe there's a lot of people who don't listen to things and they make the ultimate mistake, you know,
	and they're immediately sent to the other side.
	Of course, we never hear any complaints about those mistakes
	because they were the last mistakes made of that sort.
	You're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello art.
	This is Colin calling from Evansville, Indiana Oh boy ground zero, huh?
	Yes, sir.
	Listen to you on 1280 WGBF.
	Yes, sir Just wanted to get with you a little bit on today's activities 5.0 Not a whole lot of damage out here, and just minimal damage.
	Yeah, that's what you would expect with a fivequake.
	Right.
	Just got a little eye-opener, I guess you could say.
	Yeah, a little hello there.
	Yes.
	But there's been no hello there on this line, the fault line, since the 1800s.
	Yes, that's right.
	We've had a few tremors here and there, but that's about it until today.
	I was wondering if the gentleman that predicted this had predicted any major quake on this fault?
	Well, you know, I hate to be the bearer of bad news.
	What I would recommend you do is you go back and listen to the program with Gordon Michael Scali and I really don't want to Speak his words, and I just want to advise you to go back and listen to that program.
	Okay.
	Okay?
	All right, sir.
	Well, thank you and have a good evening.
	You have one yourself.
	I mean, this is pretty fresh in everybody's mind, what Gordon Skitt said about the New Madrid fault.
	Now, there will be others, I say, as a little controversy about what fault line it's on, but according to CNN, it was New Madrid.
	Uh, East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Hello.
	Hi, turn your radio off, please.
	Sure.
	It's always number one.
	Where are you calling from?
	How you doing?
	I'm calling from Cape Cod, Art.
	Cape Cod, all right.
	Nice to hear from you.
	Uh, well, actually, good to hear from you, since you called.
	Great.
	Actually, I just wanted to comment, uh, on the, uh, wildfires happening right now.
	God, it's awful.
	Isn't it?
	Yeah, awful.
	Man, it's, uh... It's part of our changing weather.
	I'm telling you, it's part of the weather change.
	Okay, I'm gonna have to turn... I'm gonna go to the next call if you won't turn your radio off, sir.
	Okay, no, it's off right now.
	Thank you.
	Sure.
	Okay, proceed.
	Okay, um... I mean, uh... Basically, uh... What do you think should happen to that, uh, woman there?
	Oh.
	Yeah, let me talk a little bit about that.
	Uh... He refers...
	To the Forest Service employee, who allegedly, this is an incredible story about how this big fire got started.
	Allegedly, I guess out in the forest, she got a letter from her ex-husband, and I guess she was so angry, she burned the letter.
	And it is alleged that's what began the fire.
	This whole fire.
	And so, uh, they're thrashing all that out.
	I, I, you know, I don't know.
	You know, I just, I don't know.
	On the one hand, how to look at this.
	You know, if you were, if you were a judge, how to look at this.
	Uh, she, she was probably really angry and I doubt she intended to start a forest fire.
	So I don't know enough of the details to say what I think ought to happen.
	Letter from an ex-husband.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Bart, I have two things.
	The first thing I want to tell you is I have the miracle cure for your back.
	Uh-oh.
	Do you know how many miracle cures have been thrust upon me?
	But go right ahead.
	Okay, firstly, you know I'm on the level.
	I know the terminology.
	I've got the same deal.
	L4, L5, S1, S2.
	I've lived with it for 30 years.
	Okay, proceed, sir.
	What is the cure?
	Yeah.
	There's a back machine that certain physical therapists and chiropractors have, and it increases the muscle mass in your low back.
	A back machine?
	Yeah, it's very expensive.
	It's a $50,000 machine.
	Only certain of the, you know, physical therapy, sports injury offices have it, but you'll find one of those, and I'm promising you it'll It'll work a miracle for you, it has for me.
	I appreciate the information, sir.
	Yeah, the other issue is that I wanted to ask if you could ever get those four army intel guys that went AWOL from Germany, what was it, eight to ten years ago?
	Yeah, I interviewed them.
	Yeah, I know that you interviewed them years ago.
	I wondered if you'd done a recent one.
	No, the story, I appreciate the call, but the story hasn't changed.
	It was a very strange story involving a Ouija board and soldiers at when AWOL ended up in Florida and I interviewed them years ago and there's not been a change to that story yet.
	It was weird then, it's weird now.
	Very, very strange story.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello, Art.
	Hello, sir.
	You must be in a truck.
	Yeah, I'm a truck driver.
	I'm in Chattanooga now.
	Hey, down to Atlanta.
	Yes, sir.
	Uh, first of all, I want to wish you a belated happy birthday.
	Thank you.
	I couldn't get through last night to tell you.
	Uh, but I got to check out your website.
	Uh, I checked out that, uh, American Anti-Gravity that you had on the website.
	That's a pretty neat little deal there.
	Yeah.
	Uh, they actually got all the parts you can buy to build your own.
	I've been thinking about trying that as soon as I get the chance.
	Well, I recommend it.
	I mean, by all means.
	You know, people trying these things by themselves is a really good idea.
	Usually.
	Yeah.
	Usually.
	That's pretty neat.
	There are some things that you should not try at home that are dangerous, but when one comes along that you can try and verify yourself by all means.
	Canada's number two privately owned national television network, according to Sammy from Ottawa, Said in its 6.30 newscast, the weather is Canada's number one story today.
	According to Canada's Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, the weather is only number six on the news, but this one, the privately owned one, is where it's listed.
	He says, I can't blame him, because in Ottawa we've already had, listen to this folks, three times the normal level of rainfall.
	Farmers near Montreal would have had more success growing rice in water paddies than the more traditional crops up here.
	Now, water that might well be in Colorado right now is instead to the north where it ought not be.
	In Ottawa.
	Three times the normal rainfall in Ottawa.
	Up in Canada.
	Now isn't that exactly what we said would occur?
	Weather conditions would begin moving north.
	That appears to be a process well underway right now.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hi, Eric.
	Hi.
	I want to give you... Turn your radio off, please.
	Okay, hang on a minute.
	Okay.
	Always folks have it next to you so that you can turn it off the minute you get on the air or you will confuse yourself.
	Okay.
	Yes.
	I want to give you something because you have been giving us something for so long.
	Um, we've completely gotten rid of our TV.
	We don't have cable anymore.
	Really?
	Big move.
	That's a big move.
	Who made the decision?
	Um, well actually the cable company made it for us.
	I see.
	But anyway, what I wanted to tell you is we listen to Art Bell every night, faithfully,
	and we really enjoy you.
	And I wanted to tell you, I've seen pictures on your website of your wife, and I wanted
	to wish you a happy belated birthday.
	Take that woman out and have a good vacation, would you please?
	Oh, I hope so.
	If my back will permit me to walk straight.
	I'm sort of bowed a little bit right now My back knows when I'm about to do you know want to do something important whether it's work or vacation It doesn't matter my back knows and it goes gotcha Yeah, it's sort of like when with your vehicles.
	Oh My mom always told me, don't talk about when you have extra money in front of your vehicles or your plants.
	Or they'll take it, right?
	Uh-huh.
	You got it.
	Gotta go.
	When I think back on all the crap I learned in high school It's a wonder I can't think at all You know, I recently had a conversation in my Firebird.
	I've got a Firebird Trans Am.
	I barely ever drive it.
	We drive the Geo Metro.
	But now come to think of it... It's been acting a little strangely.
	I wonder what it wants.
	I wonder what it's going to do.
	I wonder what it's gonna take.
	There's an incredible debate coming up directly ahead.
	I love to take a photograph.
	Mama, don't take my coat.
	Don't take my coat.
	Holding you is a warmth that I thought I could never find.
	I need you.
	Just trying to decide.
	I need you.
	Or stay by your side.
	I need you.
	I know I could cry.
	I trust him, but I answer to the questions that keep going through my mind.
	Hey, babe.
	It's time to wake up.
	It's time to wake up.
	I'm falling in love with you all the same.
	It's time to wake up.
	It's time to wake up.
	I'm falling in love with you all the same.
	I'm falling in love with you all the same.
	I've seen visions of someone like you in my life.
	A love that's strong, reaching out, holding me through the darkest night.
	I'm falling in love with you all the same.
	Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255, east of
	the Rockies 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222 and the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
	To reach Art on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them
	Dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
	It certainly is.
	This is going to be very interesting and engrossing.
	And it's a good thing because it will keep my mind off other things.
	You know, you would imagine... I kind of imagine that the SETI group And Dr. Sam Friedman, who really is the father of what was discovered about Roswell, would have a whole lot in common, but not necessarily.
	They're both looking for life, but they really don't have a lot in common, because one believes that life is here now and or has visited Earth, and the other thinks that we've got to be looking for it light years away.
	So they do have something in common, and yet they don't.
	So coming up in a moment, we will have a debate of sorts between Dr. Paul Schock, also known as Dr. SETI, has been described as a cross between Tom Lear and Carl Sagan.
	Armed with a laptop computer and a classical guitar, he travels the world, making the search for life in space accessible to audiences as diverse as humanity itself.
	Since the formation of the non-profit membership-supported SETI League in 1994, The Good Doctor has served as its executive director, coordinating its science mission and delivering hundreds of SETI presentations to thousands of enthusiasts in dozens of countries on five continents and more than half the U.S.
	At college campuses, science centers, public lecture halls, and on TV and radio, Dr. Settey's unique mix of science and song seeks to educate as well as entertain.
	He compels the listener to contemplate a fundamental question which has haunted humankind since we first realized that the points of light in the night, you know those big points of light, are actually suns.
	Are we alone?
	That is a big question, isn't it?
	And then comes Stanton Friedman, who I'm sure is convinced we are not alone.
	He received his B.S.
	and M.S.
	degree in physics from the University of Chicago, 1955 and 1956, where Carl Sagan also was a classmate.
	Hmm.
	See, they have commonality there.
	He worked for 14 years as a nuclear physicist for such companies as GE, General Motors, Westinghouse, TRW, Aerojet General Nucleonics, and McDonnell Douglas on such advanced Highly classified, eventually cancelled projects as nuclear aircraft, fission and fusion rockets, and nuclear power plants for space.
	Stan is the original civilian investigator on the Roswell incident.
	He co-authored Crash at Corona, and instigated the Unsolved Mysteries Roswell program.
	He was heavily involved in both the 1979 documentary UFOs Are Real, In the 1993 and 96 videos, flying saucers are real.
	Stan has provided testimony to congressional hearings, appeared twice at the United Nations, pioneered many aspects of ufology, including Betty Hill's star map work, crashed saucers, analysis of the, uh, Adolfo's physical trace case and challenges To the Suttee.
	So, coming up in just a moment, these two gentlemen, head to head.
	All right, first, from way the heck up north and east, comes Stanton Friedman.
	Stanton, are you there?
	I'm here, Art.
	And you are, remind me where you are?
	I'm in Fredericton, New Brunswick, Canada, 73 miles east of Houghton, Maine, which is on the border between Maine and Canada.
	Four hours ahead of you.
	Four time zones, yep.
	Alright, well, did I say incorrectly that you would probably state that, in your view, we need not be looking out, you know, many, many light years waiting for a signal because They're right here, right now.
	I mean, that's basically your position.
	Or have been here.
	That's better.
	Yeah, I don't have anybody in my living room here.
	I mean, my office.
	I'm convinced, indeed, that planet Earth is being visited by intelligently controlled extraterrestrial spacecraft.
	In other words, some, underlined 46 times, some UFOs are really in spacecraft.
	Most are not.
	I don't care about them.
	But some are.
	Some are, and I'm further convinced, that we're dealing with a cosmic watergate.
	An important aspect of this problem is the fact that the best sensors, the best means for detecting strange bodies flying around in the sky, are military, and the data is born classified.
	So we've got a cosmic watergate to deal with.
	I'm convinced also that none of the arguments against these two positions, and this is where Paul and I would disagree of course, Stand up under careful scrutiny.
	They all sound splendid until you look at the evidence and then they collapse.
	I'm further convinced we're dealing with the biggest story of the millennium, the planet Earth, and cover up the best data for more than 55 years.
	Okay, well, here comes Dr. Paul Schalk, who I doubt shares those views, because, of course, he's vested in SETI.
	He's part of SETI, and SETI is the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence, and I've had you on, I think, before, Doctor, and Of course, others from SETI as well.
	And you believe that the way to find alien life, and you don't disagree there might be alien life, you just think the way to find it is to search for a signal of some sort, whether it be radio or light or whatever, from a long, long way away.
	Is that roughly correct, Doctor?
	Well, it's certainly true, Art, that one tool in our arsenal in the search for extraterrestrial companions is the electromagnetic spectrum.
	And the study of science is a science involved in looking for this evidence.
	This of course does not preclude the possibility of other forms of evidence, and we certainly do not discourage other forms of research such as Stan Friedman does.
	But the best tools in my personal arsenal are radio telescopes, and optical telescopes, and infrared telescopes, and various other forms of detection of electromagnetic radiation from beyond.
	Well, if there was a report that could not be disputed of alien life on Earth, or alien presence on Earth, And it really got to the point where it could not be disputed.
	There wouldn't be any more SETI, would there?
	Oh, not necessarily, Art.
	First of all, I would be absolutely delighted if such indisputable proof were presented to me, because this is what SETI is all about, of course, searching for our cosmic companions.
	And if Stan can do it, more power to him.
	I'd be delighted to see undisputable proof.
	Much of the evidence which Stan has presented is compelling, but for me, not entirely convincing.
	But maybe that's because I'm a hard sell.
	Nevertheless, such a discovery, I think, would only benefit SETI, because once one extraterrestrial manifestation has been verified, then, of course, there will be tremendous interest in pursuing others.
	What do you think about that, Stan?
	Well, there's no question, if aliens, you know, drop down in the middle of the World Cup soccer match, it would change things a great deal.
	But the kicker here is, we're assuming that the tools for Interstellar communication are observable with our systems.
	Now, I should stress that Paul has a much broader view about this than the typical, the SETI Institute people, who seem to be stuck at the level of looking for radio signals.
	Look, within 50 years from now, we probably won't be emitting many radio signals ourselves.
	We will have direct-to-satellite communications and back down, and, much more important, We will have developed new techniques about which we presently know nothing.
	One of my real difficulties with the study institute types, if you will, is they neglect the fact that technological progress comes from doing things differently in an unpredictable way, and that's two important areas here.
	One is method of communication.
	Yes.
	Yes, now people are beginning to talk about optical SETI.
	Yes.
	And you can't pick up those signals, of course, with a radio telescope.
	But there are also, to be expected, better means of interstellar travel,
	and most of the SETI people assume that you can't get here from there.
	That's a basic assumption.
	Do you assume that, Doctor?
	I make no assumptions along those lines.
	I have to agree with Stan in some regards, but let me clarify one possible misconception.
	SETI is not a monolithic...
	SETI is a highly diverse discipline.
	SETI is a science, not a single search or a single organization.
	And Stanton has made reference to my colleagues at the SETI Institute, folks who I respect
	and often disagree with, as is the nature of scientists.
	There are a number of different organizations throughout the world doing SETI research.
	SETI is a type of search.
	Where do you disagree with them?
	For one thing, my friends at the SETI Institute are, for the most part, professional radio
	astronomers.
	Many of them are former employees of the late NASA SETI program.
	You see, the U.S.
	government did fund SETI for an eye blink of human history.
	For a short moment, there was a NASA SETI office at the Ames Research Center in Mountain View, California.
	and that office was operating on a shoestring budget of five cents per US citizen per year.
	That's quite literally pocket change, but in its aggregate it did amount to $12.5 million a year.
	And in 1993 the budget balancers decided they could find better uses for that money.
	So the NASA SETI program was cancelled, whereupon many government employees regrouped under the private
	sponsorship of the non-profit SETI.
	Well that's a little interesting history about SETI, but it doesn't say where you disagree with him.
	Well no, it does in a way because my organization is composed primarily of amateurs.
	The SETI Institute are very good scientists, and they have the training and the abilities and also the mindset of
	professional radio astronomers.
	Okay.
	The SETI League is another one of those organizations that sprang up in the wake of the cancellation of NASA SETI.
	And it is a group of radio amateurs around the world who have said SETI is a science that cannot be allowed to die.
	This is important research and it's research that we ordinary citizens can perform. Now my good friends at the SETI Institute say
	SETI is too complex, too difficult, too challenging, too technological to be done by amateurs.
	Whereas I as a lifelong radio operator as you are Art, I say SETI is too important to be
	left to the professionals.
	That's one of the areas in which we differ. And it does influence our way of doing things.
	The professionals have a particular mindset and a particular agenda which I respect although
	I don't always agree with. And the amateurs are much more likely to be the wild cards
	in research in any field in any endeavor.
	Okay, but that's not a giant point of disagreement, really.
	Not really.
	I mean, you both have the same goal, but perhaps differing ways, you imagine, to get there.
	Sure.
	Well, Stan and I have the same goal, Art, and we also have differing ways of getting there, and we are working, in my opinion, compatibly with each other.
	Well, the big thing here, Art, is that Neither the amateur nor the pro groups, and I hope we'll give out information so people can find out about the SETI League, because several people I talked to had never heard of it, and I said, wait a minute, you want to interest in SETI, this is the way to go.
	Don't worry, we'll get there.
	Where both groups are in agreement is that no significant part of their resources are being devoted to the only data we have that clearly indicates that there is somebody out there that is the UFO data.
	Well, that's what I was about to ask.
	Who's got the best evidence?
	here because if there were they'd be looking at that evidence which is far better than
	the evidence they have if there's anybody out there sending a signal.
	Well that's what I was about to ask.
	Who's got the best evidence?
	I mean SETI, both the amateurs and the pros alike haven't found a damn thing yet.
	No big wows yet.
	Well in that regard Art I've got to state the SETI league with its meager budget has
	been just as successful as the professionals in finding nothing.
	Right absolutely.
	On the other hand it's true.
	Stan is right.
	not been devoting our resources to UFO research because that's...
	not our area of specialization. In fact, most accountants that I know have not been
	devoting their resources to UFO research either.
	But Stan, what are you... it should be where you're spending your money because that's where
	the action is, Stan.
	Yeah, that's clearly the case. If one accepts the notion that there's
	a great concern, a desire to find extraterrestrial intelligence...
	One looks around and says, well, what can we do about it?
	If we didn't have all the UFO evidence, sightings and landings and multiple witness radar visual cases, a whole host of evidence.
	If we didn't have that, then you're stuck with, you better do something like SETI or you're going to do nothing.
	But since we have all that evidence, I mean, the Senate people got very excited a couple years back when they had 37 signals that might be of interest out of several billion they picked up.
	None of them panned out.
	You look at the biggest UFO studies and you've got a much, much, much higher percentage, say 20% of the cases in Blue Book Special Report 14, that could not be identified after careful investigation.
	So, I'm saying let's look at that evidence.
	I'm not saying shut off all the radio telescopes.
	That would be absurd, because two things.
	One, we can learn a lot about the universe.
	Radio telescopes do provide a window on the universe that gives us useful information of many different kinds, and I'm all for that.
	And secondly, Who knows what more we'll find with radio telescopes.
	But I think the assumption that aliens are stuck at the level of radio signals, and now
	it's being expanded to optical laser kind of signals, is missing the point that we are
	a young civilization, that there are stars out there that are, you know, what, five,
	seven billion years older than the sun, even in our local neighborhood.
	I just got some new data on my favorite pair of sun-like stars, Zeta-1 and Zeta-2 reticuli,
	and I wonder why those are your favorites, Stan.
	Well, for an obvious reason, and I think that if the SETI people were looking, and I've
	just been trying to find if they've done any looking, it's not published yet, any, if they
	have, these two stars are not only just down the street, 39 light years away, according
	to the latest data, but they're both sun-like stars, and they're an eighth of a light year
	apart.
	So they're 35 times closer to each other than our star, the sun, is to the nearest other
	star, Alpha Centauri.
	And I'm told we can't really see them with telescopes from the Northern Hemisphere, is that right?
	Well, that's right, Northern Hemisphere objects, that's true.
	There's one other point about this.
	These two stars are roughly a billion years older than the Sun.
	A billion years.
	A billion years.
	And from a planet around one, looking over at the other'd be 25 times brighter than Sirius's say to us.
	It'd be awful bright.
	And you could directly observe planets around the other star from a planet around one looking over at the other.
	We have trouble right now directly observing anything useful about other stars.
	So you'd expect that there would be earlier interstellar travel.
	You're absolutely right, and in fact, eclipsing binaries make very, very attractive SETI candidates for several reasons.
	One of which, of course, is if there are planets around two nearby stars, members of a binary pair,
	if those planets are there, they know about the planets around their neighboring stars,
	there will be eventually travel between them.
	Even before there is travel, and perhaps even after, there will be communications between them.
	And whatever form that communication might take, if the alignment happens to be edge-on toward us,
	we have an opportunity to observe that communication.
	Doctor, what about his point that in another 50 years, in all likelihood,
	you won't see any more electromagnetic emissions of the kinds we have right now?
	In other words, basically, we'll go silent because technologies will eclipse the need for terrestrial transmission.
	It's highly likely, Art, that the period of electromagnetic pollution that Earth is in right now is a very transitory period.
	No question about that.
	So then you're not looking for a needle in a haystack.
	You're looking for a needle in a mountain.
	Oh, that's a wonderful analogy.
	I like that very much.
	Sure, if you take any one civilization, the odds of it being at the electromagnetic communicative stage right now are slim.
	On the other hand, if you take enough billions of civilizations, and I think Stan and I both agree that the opportunity is very great for there to be billions of technological civilizations.
	If you take enough of them, all at different points along their developmental continuum... Well, are we going to find one that's like us?
	Then the odds are very good that at any given moment, one of them will be at the electromagnetic leakage stage, and we have at least a chance of detecting it.
	Well, then they're going to be like us in a lot of ways, then, about as advanced technologically.
	Hold on, gentlemen, it's the bottom of the hour.
	I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
	The eagle flies, rode his wings across autumn skies, kissed the sun, touched the moon, but he left me much too soon.
	He's Lady Bird. He left. He's Lady Bird.
	The smell, the touch, the something inside that we need so much.
	The sight of a touch, or the scent of a sand, or the strength of an oak when it leaps deep in the ground.
	The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
	Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing?
	To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing?
	To have all these things in our memories whole?
	And to use them to cover us?
	things in our memories and the use of
	the colors to color us
	yeah Ride
	ride my sea soul take this place
	off this ship Wanna take a ride?
	Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
	800-825-5033. First time callers may reach our debt one seven seven five seven two
	seven twelve twenty two. The wildcard line is open at one seven seven five
	seven two seven twelve ninety five. And to call out on the toll-free
	international line call your eight My guests, nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman and Dr. Paul Schock of the SETI League.
	And it's a kind of a debate.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nod.
	It certainly is. My guests, nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman and Dr. Paul Schock of the SETI League.
	And it's a kind of a debate. It's a discussion about how we best decide if we are either encountering or have
	encountered alien life, or should just keep spending money. Not taxpayer money, I
	would like to add.
	Or even keep the amateurs pointing their dishes into space looking for life that way.
	Now, there is one thing to add here, and we'll ask about that in a moment.
	And that is that if there's a big signal, you know, a big signal, a strong signal coming
	in, kind of like an astronomy, you know, you ever notice that astronomers, professional
	astronomers are often put into the dirt by the amateurs.
	The amateurs discover a whole lot more of these comets, it seems like, than the pros
	do.
	You ever wonder why that is?
	Well, it's because the pros are looking at real deep space.
	The amateurs are looking at pretty close space, and so they find these comets.
	Now, an amateur with a smaller dish and a larger beam width is more likely to hear a big signal than the guys at Arecibo.
	That's something to think about, I suppose.
	Actually, that's a really interesting thing to think about.
	So, in other words, if we got a signal and it wasn't from very far away, you know, 30 or 40 light years, something like that.
	30 or 40 light years.
	I mean, it means it would take at the speed of light 30 or 40 years to get here, so it wouldn't be all that far away.
	It would be generated by a civilization like ours, Or at about the stage of development that ours is at, so we could imagine then the little green guys running around with cell phones, right?
	Oh, no, I don't think of little green guys, you know that.
	Please, just allow the literary...
	Yeah, I don't think there's a problem with that.
	And one of my complaints, and I put together a paper, UFOs Challenge to City Specialists, which is on my website, incidentally, thanks to the efforts of my guys there.
	Well, let's hear the challenges.
	Well, there's a whole bunch of them, but I'll keep them brief.
	First is, why do the city specialists make proclamations about how much energy it would
	take for interstellar travel when this is an area of technology completely outside their
	knowledge it would appear?
	That's a wonderful question, Stan.
	I'd like to respond to that one.
	For one thing, the nice thing about radio astronomy is it doesn't take a rocket scientist.
	You don't have to be a rocket scientist to listen for signals, but the specific question
	was energy required for travel.
	I'm not qualified to quantify the amount of energy required to travel between the stars,
	but I am qualified as a knowledgeable layman to say for any form of travel there is some
	energy cost.
	It costs to commute.
	It always costs less to communicate.
	So there will be some people who will choose to communicate rather than commute.
	It's the people who choose to commute that I'm concerned about.
	And I'm interested in their neighbors who would choose to telecommute.
	And you know, we're both looking for the same thing.
	We're looking for different manifestations.
	Well, hi you two.
	How about this one?
	Maybe both of you want to move this one around a little bit.
	Australian scientists claim teleporting success.
	Now, they have moved in Australia a laser beam from point A to point B and they say distance really is not An object.
	Now, it's early teleportation, I'll give you that, but if we're beginning to teleport now, uh, the day's gonna come when we can teleport a human being.
	Instantly.
	Now, if we can do that, and distance is not a real problem, doesn't that sort of throw a cog in everything?
	Well, certainly, if we have teleportation technology, we don't need the kinds of space vehicles that Stan and his colleagues have been studying and looking for.
	There's going to be a technological continuum, and we are just at the beginning of it.
	I have no doubt that we are going to discover things we cannot now begin to imagine.
	Right on!
	Maybe we'll discover them through physical evidence.
	Maybe we'll discover them through radio evidence.
	Maybe through telepathy.
	I don't know.
	I'm not an expert in these matters.
	But I can tell you that whatever we look for, what we discover will exceed our wildest expectations.
	And the only way not to find it is not to look.
	That's right, and I'm saying let's look here, it's a lot closer.
	And we have evidence to begin with, rather than starting off with the hope that we will find evidence of a signal of any kind.
	Well, what about Zeta Reticuli?
	I mean, that's a very good question.
	That's such a likely place for life.
	Has SETI totally exhausted its resources in looking at Zeta Reticuli, or not, Doctor?
	As far as I've been able to find, they haven't looked Not yet!
	Well, let me emphasize, Ben, there are two different approaches to doing SETI research.
	NASA SETI had a two-pronged program involving what's called a targeted search and also a sky survey technique.
	Now, the targeted search looks specifically with very narrow beam, very high gain antennas at particular candidate stars.
	And our friends at the SETI Institute in California have been using the Arecibo radio telescope to do one of the world's most powerful targeted searches.
	But with a catalog of a thousand stars... Narrow, right?
	You said it yourself.
	Very, very narrow.
	And with a catalog of a thousand stars out of the 400 billion stars in our galaxy, They will eventually, maybe, scratch the surface.
	Now, this is good research because if you pick right, if you choose well with your candidate stars, you may maximize your chances of success.
	But doctor, why not look at Zeta Reticuli?
	It's right... It should indeed be one of the stars on their candidate list, or one of the binaries on their candidate list.
	However, Let me point out that for every star we know, there are billions that we never heard of that do not appear on our list.
	Shouldn't this be like on the top ten of the first ones you would look at?
	If I were doing a targeted search, it possibly would be on my list, but I'm not doing a targeted search.
	I'm using the other technique.
	I'm using the All Sky Survey, and I'll tell you why.
	I don't have an Arecibo in my backyard.
	A 12 foot satellite dish is my radio telescope.
	It's a broad beam antenna.
	It's very good for sweeping out the whole sky methodically, systematically, looking not preferentially in one particular direction or at a single star, but at whole sections of the sky.
	If the technology I'm seeking is advanced enough It's signals will be so strong that I don't need an Arecibo to detect it.
	And if I'm very lucky, I'll find a signal that Arecibo could easily have missed.
	Well, alright, you heard what I said, didn't you, coming out of the break?
	I've said exactly that.
	Absolutely.
	You know, smaller dish... And I compared you... Doctor, I compared you to amateur astronomers.
	In other words, who finds most of these comments?
	It's the amateurs.
	It's a very apt analogy, Art, and I believe amateur radio astronomers Have the opportunity to make tremendous serendipitous discoveries in the area of astrophysics and natural phenomenon, and maybe hit pay dirt.
	The holy grail of SETI, of course, is finding confirmed artificial signals.
	We're not there yet, but the chances are very good for the amateurs.
	Now, I can't look at Zeta Reticuli.
	I'm in the northern hemisphere.
	It's in the southern sky.
	But my counterparts in Australia and New Zealand and South Africa, with their backyard SETI dishes, When they're scanning the skies, once a day, zeta reticuli swings through their beam.
	Right.
	So, of course, it's something that should be looked at.
	Well, Stan, you must have thoughts on why it really hasn't been looked at yet by the SETI Institute.
	I mean, you must have some strong thoughts about that.
	Well, there are the straightforward scientific ones.
	The spectral class is one.
	The big searches.
	of individual stars.
	And right now we're talking... I'm aligning this in a sense with the search for planets around other stars, where they're using optical telescopes.
	But still, the basic focus is on certain types of stars, because Zeta Reticuli doesn't fall quite within the middle.
	Now, I would object to the use of the term binary in the traditional sense.
	The two stars are far enough apart So there's no problem at all with having independent planetary orbits around either one without influencing the other one.
	People, when they use the term binary, mean two stars that are revolving around each other and it's conceivably... They actually revolve around a common center of mass.
	Well, okay.
	That's true.
	But still, it's much more difficult to have planetary orbits around that kind of a system than when you've got two separate stars that are close.
	Theta-1 and Theta-2 are close enough to be useful, but far enough apart to be sort of independent.
	Not too close to your in-laws, kind of.
	You know, Stan, you are convinced, are you not, that there's a gigantic cover-up that our government is damn well aware of, of conduct.
	Yeah, let me give you a specific example, because it gets back to something that would appeal to Paul's people.
	I have twice heard, completely independently, and I don't Discuss what I this kind of thing in my other lecture and what situation arises of military people being at a government facility where they've got a saucer on radar close by sitting still and where their radio antennas and they don't have Arecibos all over the place either are picking up signals and then the military people come in take the reel of tape these are old stories and
	Leave and say it didn't happen fellas forget even though all these people in this facility have a high-level security clearance or they wouldn't be there I've heard that story twice and I'll bet there are people listening to us right now who have been in that situation and who have on occasion intercepted signals from alien craft within our atmosphere because it's not
	only the business of set up a beacon and hope somebody out there is listening, but how do you
	communicate between each other?
	And those are two different situations.
	This incidentally is a strong argument for the sky survey technique.
	If you're targeting stars, you may miss those extraterrestrial interstellar probes
	that are right here in our local neighborhood.
	The Sky Survey, on the other hand, has a very good chance of picking up signals from probes.
	And we are very quick to admit the possibility that there could well be intelligent autonomous
	probes studying our local neighborhood.
	With regards to government cover-ups, I'll state two things here.
	One is that no one has ever stolen any of my data or confiscated any of my equipment,
	and I'm hoping they never do.
	But on the other hand...
	You also said you haven't found anything yet.
	On the other hand, I will be the first to admit that governments lie.
	That's what governments do.
	That's what they're for.
	That's why we elect them.
	So certainly the possibility of cover-ups has occurred to us.
	One of the advantages that the Feddie League has, being an international membership-supported non-profit with 1,350 members in 62 countries, Is, if we do have any detections, with the level of cooperation and coordination between our members around the world, through the internet, and through amateur radio, it would be awfully hard for any one government to stifle our progress.
	I would agree with that.
	They have stifled the progress with regard to ufology.
	And that's a key point here.
	And it's another one of my problems with the general study, if you will, is that it ignores The national security aspects of the reality of flying saucers and there are very serious concerns.
	I mean, people act as if what we're talking about is a philosophical discussion.
	Isn't it exciting?
	There's other life out there if they're coming here.
	What about their technology?
	How can we use it?
	Will our enemies learn to use their technology, alien technology, against us?
	Of course, even if they're not coming here, their technology would be of interest to us.
	Sure, but they're not going to share it with us if they're not coming here, and they're not sharing it with us now, I don't think.
	Stan, if Dr. Such or his colleagues found something, I mean really found something, do you think that they would be allowed to just go to the Washington Post or whatever with their story?
	Or do you think that they would be met by some fellows in suits?
	I think that it depends what they find.
	If they find from the all-sky survey that some star out there, out there meaning tens, dozens, hundreds of light years away, is sending a signal, I don't think anybody would stop them from communicating that.
	That's very different than saying if they picked up a saucer in an alien body and they want to go public, You know, on national television, I think that's where the trouble would come in.
	And that's what the government is concerned about.
	I mean, you know, you're eating your breakfast and you read about, hey, they picked up a radio signal that might be from an intelligently produced source, you know, past the butter.
	But if it landed next door and abducted the daughter of the people next door, then we get a different kind of problem altogether.
	One that has enormous impacts on the whole question of government.
	Who speaks for the planet, for example?
	Who deals with these guys?
	There are some international protocols in place that address this very question.
	I'm not certain they would actually be followed in the event of a confirmed contact.
	The government's really haven't had anything to say about those protocols, as you recall.
	Actually, I constantly get an email from people saying that there is a law against contact between U.S.
	citizens and alien beings.
	Do you think that's an enforceable law, Art?
	I didn't say it was enforceable.
	There are international protocols that have been presented to the United Nations with regard to who speaks for Earth.
	And I'll be the first to say that I don't speak for Earth.
	Heck, I don't even speak for the entire SETI community.
	But I can speak for those of us who are doing the most SETI research right now.
	The SETI League has 115 small radio telescopes on the air.
	That's more radio telescopes than the rest of the world combined.
	So I can say that we can speak for the bulk of the radio astronomers in that secrecy is an anathema to good science.
	You cannot conduct good research in a vacuum.
	Well, then we're not doing any good research, are we?
	I mean, you just...
	I have to disagree with part of that.
	Some great science has been done in secret.
	The first nuclear chain reaction under the, you know, on the squash court under Stagg Field at the University of Chicago.
	Is that science, or is that technology?
	We must make a distinction.
	Well, I think it's a combination of the two.
	You can't separate the two.
	You couldn't build that pile safely without darn good science as to how many neutrons you're gonna have running around as you keep adding material to the pile.
	Most of the scientific data required for that first sustained reaction was publicly known, and it's only the technology to achieve it that was kept very, very secret.
	There was an awful lot of cross-section work and other stuff that was done in secret.
	I mean, if you look at places like Los Alamos, Livermore, Oak Ridge, they've done a great deal as well as the stealth program.
	That's technology, but it uses new science, too.
	The Manhattan Project itself?
	Yes.
	Yeah, I mean, clearly there are good reasons for national secrecy when working with high levels of technology for military purposes.
	I have no problem with that.
	Where I draw the line is that when there is science to benefit all of humankind, Let's face it, if you receive a piece of physical evidence of a visitor, that visitor didn't come to visit a particular government, he came to visit our planet.
	If I receive a confirmed, undeniable, conclusive signal, that wasn't a person-to-person call.
	That was a call to our entire planet.
	And for our government to try to stifle knowledge of it, of course, it probably will happen.
	Of course, the governments are in the business of misinformation.
	Maybe they cover up, maybe they lie.
	Boy, you really are in stark disagreement with Seth Shostak, who said, look, if we get a signal, there's no way in the world, any kind of signal, he doesn't even differentiate, any kind of signal, there's no way in the world that the government could keep it secret.
	You disagree with Seth?
	Well, I believe that governments will probably try.
	I think long-term they will probably fail.
	Because, especially when you have an international effort at the level of cooperation going on within the SETI community, it would be very hard for any one government to pull the plug on a discovery.
	Okay, then if that's true, then Stan, this cover-up you talk about couldn't be.
	Because according to what the doctor just said, the government isn't capable of that kind of long-term cover-up.
	Well, hell, it's been going on since 47, right?
	Well, probably before that.
	Even before?
	Yeah, 1946 when Jimmy Doolittle talked to the Swedish Defense Department.
	Nobody's seen a report of that, about all the sightings, over a thousand sightings of what they called ghost rockets before flying saucer.
	Well, from where I sit, Stan, in the shadow of WABC 770, one of our network affiliates, at the Steady League office, from where I sit, I see that an awful lot of misinformation has been presented by the government, and that misinformation could very well be for the purposes of throwing us off the track.
	Yes, but Doctor, you just said... Off the track of what we don't know.
	Yes, but Doctor, you just said such a long-term cover-up wouldn't be possible.
	No, I said that eventually the information will out.
	It is already outing for an awful lot of information that was kept secret for many, many years.
	Look at Roswell.
	It finally came out and the government continues to lie about it.
	But, again, the distinction is between are you covering up a signal subject to interpretation and from somebody a long ways away.
	In other words, we're not going there tomorrow and they're not coming here tomorrow.
	Right.
	Or are you covering up artifacts Technology, the here and the now.
	A real part of what's happening on this planet.
	And those are two very different areas.
	And remember, something that gets neglected, we've been talking about radio telescopes, but in terms of observing flying saucers, the best observing equipment produces data that's born classified.
	The radar networks, defense radar networks, the NRO satellites, are the NSA listening posts. I've talked to former NSA guys,
	National Security Agency, and they told me there were signals of story, things that
	they picked up, discussions by foreign governments of UFOs all over the place. That data
	we don't hear about.
	Stan, let's try this on for size.
	You don't have to go that far to find evidence of extraterrestrial visitation.
	I am willing to stipulate, without hesitation, that Earth has been visited by extraterrestrial life forms.
	In fact, we are their descendants.
	Holy mackerel.
	All right, hold on.
	Such agreement I never imagined.
	Such a stipulation I never imagined.
	And yet there it was, from a SETI League guy.
	It's Saturday night, have you seen my face?
	I tell me when the boys get here.
	It's seven o'clock and I wanna rock, Wanna get a belly full of beer.
	White man with dark up and a barrel full of monkeys, And my old lady, she don't care.
	Cause if the looks are cute, and the braces and boots, I'm half of the breed.
	Cause I'm a, I'm a roll my die, die, die.
	Oh Lord, oh Lord.
	We are Irish.
	Bye.
	I I remember don't worry How could I ever forget it's the first time The last time we ever met But I know the reason why you keep your silence up
	That doesn't show, but the pain's too gross So forget you and me
	I'm the wind coming in the air tonight Do reach Art Bell in the Kingdom of Night
	From west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-825-5033.
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	To recharge on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
	Exactly what it is.
	My guest, Stanton Friedman, a nuclear physicist and UFO researcher.
	And Dr. Paul Schuch, who is a SETI League member, in fact, head of the SETI League, and we're having sort of a discussion-slash-debate about how to look, why to look, why we're looking, what might really be the case, and Dr. Schuch just made a very interesting statement stipulating, right at the break, that life has visited, other life has visited Earth.
	We'll find out more in a moment.
	Alright, once again, Sam Friedman and Dr. Paul Shuck.
	Dr. Shuck, we've got to immediately follow up because, gee, right at break you said you stipulate that alien life has visited Earth.
	That's kind of a little bombshell, or is it?
	Well, I think those of us in the SETI community have long accepted the theory of panspermia that was articulated by the late Sir Fred Hoyle and his colleague, our friend and member, Chandra Wickramasinghe.
	Panspermia says that life on Earth was seeded by microbes that fell on Earth from beyond.
	And if that's the case, then we are, of course, the descendants of extraterrestrials.
	This is important because Stan has raised the question, which has been discussed by many scientists for years,
	about how other beings from far beyond Earth could possibly be humanoid in appearance.
	And of course, my answer to that is, if we have a common biological basis, then it's not at all surprising that other people... In other words, we're kids and cousins.
	We could well be relatives.
	All right, all right.
	Well then, why not Mars?
	I mean, look at the big announcement we just had about Mars.
	My God!
	Enough water frozen on Mars to cover Mars 1,500 feet deep with water all the way around.
	That's a lot of water.
	I believe there probably was life at one point on Mars and may still be.
	Well, gee, now where would that life have most likely gone?
	Probably subterranean.
	Probably it still is at the microbial stage or maybe... No, no, no, no, no, no.
	Let's go back to the seed, shall we?
	Yes.
	The seed theory, right?
	Okay.
	So let's see.
	What's closest to Mars?
	Hmm.
	Well, of course.
	Earth, you think we're Martians?
	How about that?
	How about that?
	Yes.
	How about we're being somebody's colony from a million years ago?
	I like the idea of us being... I don't like the idea, but of us being a penal colony where they trapped all the bad boys and girls here.
	That's why we're so nasty to each other.
	We probably were a penal colony.
	We probably were a penal colony.
	I see signs of it everywhere.
	Corporate America, government, everywhere.
	I mean, look, Georgia and Australia were settled by prisoners.
	That's right.
	Anybody in Georgia listening, please don't worry about it.
	That's not a personal insult.
	This is interesting speculation, but I think we have the opportunity to do some hard scientific research here.
	Certainly, if we do discover extraterrestrials in whatever form, artifact visitation, radio signals, robotic probes, any of these give us an opportunity to learn a lot more about our origin, our history, and perhaps our future.
	And that's what's both SETI and Stan's research, which I like to call SETV, S-E-T-V, Monitored for Extraterrestrial Visitation, both of these forms of research are seeking the same goal using different tools.
	Yeah, but there's a difference in the immediacy.
	If the government recovered a crash flying saucer, two of them actually, in Roswell, and wreckage pieces as well as bodies, that puts a whole different Look at things than, say, listening for signals.
	Well, there's no question that the government recovered something at Roswell.
	There's no question that something crashed in the desert on, I think, July 5th or so of 1947.
	I'll make it the 2nd.
	Yeah, I'll go along with that.
	Okay.
	Given that something crashed and something was recovered, the question is, was it something of theirs or something of ours?
	And the nice thing about government cover-ups is what I like to call the red, white, and blue herring.
	And that is, if you don't want somebody to find out what you're doing, You deny it implausibly, and then you deny the counter-argument implausibly.
	Well, Dr. Shuck, you did see the infamous Roswell news conference, didn't you, with the dummies that they held up and all the rest of that?
	Oh, well, there's all kinds of misinformation that's being put out.
	I mean, we know there was no weather balloon.
	Yeah, but that was our government.
	And they said it was a weather balloon.
	Right.
	Now, the reason I would say it's a weather balloon if I were trying to cover up my own exotic spacecraft is because then afterwards I could say, alien spacecraft?
	What do you mean alien spacecraft?
	I never said that.
	Wait a minute, are you suggesting we had exotic craft of the kind you're talking about in 1947?
	I think the possibility is pretty good that we have today had had then things that the public cannot possibly imagine.
	There's a difference between saying we had things that the public can't imagine and saying we had a wreckage of an intelligently controlled extraterrestrial spacecraft with bodies.
	A very big difference.
	And of course, the cover-up, you know, Roswell has gone to be a big name in ufology, if you will, and I'll take credit for that to some extent.
	They just became an all-American city, would you believe?
	But only ten were named, and they're one of them.
	And I'll be there on the weekend, the anniversary weekend, and with thousands of other people, I guess, speaking on Saturday the 6th of July at the Roswell Museum.
	Doctor, Doctor, are you going to be going down to celebrate with Stan?
	No, unfortunately not.
	I'm going to be at Green Bank, West Virginia at the National Radio Astronomy Observatory, where I have my one week a year of telescope time on the 40-foot dish.
	Well, darn.
	Wow.
	And one thing that Paul is way ahead of me, I don't have either a laptop or a guitar, so I can't compete with him on that.
	But the Roswell story is interesting because the government I didn't see it.
	There was a History Channel program the other night.
	We don't, in Canada, get the American History program, unfortunately.
	And the other way around goes, too.
	There's going to be a program about me tomorrow night.
	Well, tonight now, from where I am.
	Stanton T. Friedman is real, but you can't see it anywhere.
	Does that mean that you're not real in the U.S., Stan?
	I'm a dual citizen.
	I turn my face whichever way I feel like, but that's on the Space Channel, would you believe, in Canada, but not in the U.S.
	Tomorrow night, 8 o'clock Eastern, 7 o'clock Eastern, 8 in Atlantic.
	Well, we're heard all across Canada, so we'll get lots of reports.
	That's why I mentioned it, Art, because I know that you're, what, 37 cities in Canada?
	Oh, yeah, all over the place, sure.
	And all over the U.S.
	If you'll indulge me just a second, Art, I have to take advantage of your wonderful transmitter here to say hi to my brother-in-law in Anchorage listening on KENI-650.
	And my daughter in San Francisco listening on 560 KSFO, and of course, my wife Muriel in Williamsport, Pennsylvania, 1400 WRAK, where she listens to you.
	You're scattered all over my affiliates, aren't you?
	You and your family.
	Well, you know, it's a big world out there, Art, and you're all over it.
	Your seeds, actually, Doctor.
	In fact, my extraterrestrial descendants.
	Well, Doctor, look, Stan, Well, I'm willing to say that we certainly were testing space vehicles of our own at that time.
	at Roswell and bodies were recovered. Now are you willing to go that far?
	Well I'm willing to say that we certainly were testing space vehicles of our own at that time.
	No, no, I didn't say that.
	And probably with some sort of primates aboard. So certainly if we have monkeys on a captured
	German A4 and it crashes, we're going to recover bodies that look humanoid.
	Stan?
	No indication that everybody has, a lot of people have looked at that possible explanation.
	It's a natural.
	White Sands Missile Range is over the mountains, 100 miles west of, well, a little more than that, west of Roswell.
	The monkey experiments didn't start until later.
	As far as we know.
	Some of the key witnesses were part of the 509th, the only atomic bombing squad in the world.
	I talked to people who were there.
	If it doesn't fit, you must quit.
	It wasn't a balloon.
	It certainly wasn't a mogul balloon.
	It wasn't monkeys.
	It wasn't crash test dummies.
	Although, you know, interesting, the Air Force has really discovered something new.
	They discovered time travel for crash test dummies.
	The Dropman 53, and somehow they were observed in 1947.
	That was good.
	Now that doesn't surprise me at all, because I would imagine that the energy costs of time travel are on a par with, or maybe even less than, the energy requirements for interstellar travel.
	Well, one of the things about energy requirements, and in my paper, which is on my website, which goes into this in considerable detail, is that the energy requirements depend on your mission profile, so to speak.
	Oh, absolutely.
	But wait a minute, isn't interstellar travel time travel?
	Oh, to the extent that you dilate time when you approach the speed of light, absolutely.
	In fact, radio telescopes are time machines because we're looking backward in time the farther out we look.
	Yes, yes, but you don't appear younger after you've been staring in the eyepiece for a while.
	Well, I'm hitting it on a 15-year-old.
	Oh, my!
	Wrinkles around the eye. What have you been doing? I've been looking through this telescope.
	My back hurts tonight.
	Well, Stan raises an interesting point about the possibility of time travel,
	and I will accept that the interstellar traveler hypothesis is an interesting one.
	The time traveler hypothesis is also an interesting one.
	And I don't believe we really know which or maybe some alternative hypothesis.
	There are a lot of unexplained phenomenon out there.
	That doesn't mean they don't exist.
	It just means we haven't yet explained them.
	But the fact that we don't, it doesn't matter how they get here.
	The question is whether they're here or not.
	In other words, people come to me with that, well, how about time travel?
	I say, look, I don't care whether they get here on the kind of fusion rockets that I worked on 40 years ago, God forbid, or any other system you can think of.
	The question is, are we dealing with intelligent life that originates elsewhere in time and space than planet Earth?
	My answer is yes.
	Am I smart enough to know the latest in technology for Zeta Reticulans?
	Of course not!
	I haven't been around that long.
	I don't know that much.
	Our civilization... I mean, one of the things that's happened in the past century is a recognition of how deep our history is.
	You know, you go back to Bishop Usher a few hundred years ago, and, you know, 6,000 years, that's it.
	That's the lifespan of Earth.
	I know, more like 4,000.
	What?
	I thought he put it more like 4,000 years.
	4,000 B.C.
	Oh, okay.
	Very well.
	6,000 total years that everything has been here.
	I interviewed somebody just like that last week.
	Well, that leads us into an important question, Stan.
	Do you believe in a supreme being?
	Depends on how you define it.
	If you want the astronaut, the chief astronaut for the local neighborhood, I suppose I do, because I don't know what that means.
	Okay, does that chief astronaut, is he intelligent, he or she, or it?
	Is this an intelligence?
	I think there may well be some form of what I would call super intelligence, because I don't know what else to call it.
	I think one of the things we get sidetracked when we get into UFOs and radio telescopes about the physical world, and I think aliens would know a great deal about the spiritual world, call it telepathy and reincarnation and the whole business of You know, karma and all this kind of stuff.
	I think when you study biology, you learn to live a long time, and you learn to live a long time and have super supercomputers, you develop wisdom, and then you might find out that there's more to life than the physical, hard stuff, you know, the chairs we sit on, the people we see.
	True.
	Well, I think it's safe to say, Stan, that the majority of our listeners believe in some form of supreme being, intelligent being from beyond Earth.
	Given that, I think we all believe in extraterrestrial intelligence, and now it's just a question of which manifestation of it we choose to study.
	The physical, the radio, or perhaps the spiritual.
	Do you, Dr. Seuss, believe in God?
	I believe in a form of God.
	Now, I was raised Jewish, and I have a lot of trouble accepting the Old Testament God, the wrathful, vengeful God.
	My vision of my Supreme Being is a little more gentle and a little bit more forgiving.
	So, you're sort of a cherry picker, then?
	Clearly, the universe has too much diversity not to have been developed through some sort of an orderly process.
	You're a Jared Picker too, Stan, right?
	Well, I guess you'd have to say yes, Art.
	I was raised Jewish as well, sang in the choir, you know, the whole business.
	And my notion, I think it's an insult to the concept of God to think of one little planet, and this is it, and that's all there is, and that's all he's managed to do, because then he's been a failure.
	If you look at us, a primitive society, major activity, tribal warfare.
	My goodness, this is God?
	But if you look at it as this is an aberrant place that has missed the way, when I said before, primitive society, then it takes on a different view.
	And, you know, these are interesting times with what's happening in the Middle East and with everybody invoking God.
	Most of the world's problems right now seem to be sort of religion-based, whether it's India, you know, or the Middle East and Ireland has simmered down a little bit.
	There are serious problems all over the world that have to do with is there a God and whose side is he on or she on?
	So that's an area that I tend to stay away from only because what can I do about it?
	Well, it might come back to the E.T.
	question because considering our present behavior would any civilization that advanced consider contacting us or Quarantining?
	I think quarantining.
	Well, if God created extraterrestrials, which I believe is a distinct possibility, then perhaps we can learn more about ourselves and our spiritual heritage from our cosmic neighbors.
	Well, I'm saying they're coming here.
	Let's the government open up the books and let's find out.
	There is another point here too.
	Are we worth talking to in the sense of equals?
	I don't think we've demonstrated competence to be a member of a galactic federation.
	I certainly don't expect that anybody's going to be beaming Encyclopedia Galactica our way unless we just happen to be incredibly lucky.
	The best we can hope for realistically is to intercept somebody else's Interstellar communication.
	If we are able to eavesdrop, at least if we can answer that fundamental question whether they're here or not, if we know that they're out there, maybe we can look here and look into ourselves and learn something.
	I think aliens would realize that we haven't learned to look after ourselves here on this planet.
	You do know we haven't been sending out signals.
	In other words, other than the ambient radiation that occurs from Earth, or even the microwave or military radar, other than that, in one attempt early on at Arecibo... Actually, there have been two attempts.
	Even two, who cares?
	Two very short attempts.
	I'm talking about a sustained A high output transmission just to bang away at the universe and send a signal.
	Now we're not doing that.
	Do you two agree on why?
	I first of all don't agree that we shouldn't be sending out signals.
	Now many in the FedEx community think that we can't give our position away.
	I think it's too late to worry about that.
	I know we're here.
	I think we really need to send out a CQ.
	And I believe that the political winds of change will blow in that direction.
	Right now, this is prohibited, but I think that will change.
	Why is it prohibited?
	Oh, there's been action through the UN to prohibit the deliberate transmission to extraterrestrial civilizations.
	I think we live on a paranoid planet, and perhaps for good reason.
	Maybe it's because they know something.
	Or maybe it's because they are just plain afraid of the consequences of their actions.
	Either way, I think at some point we will have to transmit.
	You know what, guys?
	That's another thing I want to talk about.
	Maybe we should be afraid of the consequences of those kinds of actions.
	Who's to say they're going to be friendly?
	Anybody know that for sure?
	That they're friendly?
	No.
	But except that they've been here long enough to say if their intention was just to swat us like a fly on the table, they haven't done it.
	Well, on this much I think Stan and I can agree.
	If an extraterrestrial civilization is malevolent and sufficiently advanced, We're already goners.
	Yeah, not much we can do about it.
	Bye, fellas.
	You know, enjoy.
	And some people have suggested that one of the reasons for the cover-up is the government knows something absolutely terrible is going to happen and there's nothing we can do about it.
	So, you know, eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die kind of thing.
	I don't have to buy that viewpoint because... On that point of view, I want to ask about Planet X. Hold on, gentlemen.
	Planet X. Not much time.
	Time, time, time.
	Not much time, the Planet X people say.
	I think we'll ask if it's all baloney in their opinion.
	Time, time, time to see what's become of me.
	While I look around at all my possibilities.
	I was so hard to please.
	Look around.
	When a bullet hits the bone.
	I'm falling down the spiral.
	Destination unknown.
	Double-crossed messenger.
	All alone.
	Can't get no connection.
	Can't get through.
	Where are you?
	Well, the night is heavy on his guilt and mind There's a bomb from the borderline
	And the hitman's come He knows damn well he has been cheated
	He's been And I'm not living as good as my life's so
	This is the madhouse, this is my kingdom Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye
	From Western the Rockies at 1-800-614-9111 618-8255, east of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
	And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
	To reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 8-1-1.
	800-893-0903. This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
	It is indeed Dr. Stan Friedman, his physicist, Stan Friedman is my guest, along with Dr. Paul Such.
	you Shuck.
	I'll get it right.
	I can never get that right.
	Dr. Paul Shuck is my guest, also from the SETI League.
	And by the way, if you'll go to my website under Interact, you'll find out the Team Art Bell, the SETI Team Art Bell, the SETI at Home Team Art Bell, has been resurrected and We're gonna go rock them again.
	Again, get to my website under Interact, and you will find, under New Management, an all-new Team Art Belt.
	Steady Team Art Belt.
	So, you know, I do support that.
	We need to get out there and get units under our belts, because who knows, it may be one of you that does the big wow out there.
	Alright, it seems to me that these two guys don't really disagree with each other at all.
	I mean, maybe I'll be proven wrong here, and we're gonna try that here in a moment, but it seems to me that I could have had probably a bigger debate between Dr. Paul Schock and...
	It was somebody from the SETI Institute.
	Dr. Shuck, what do you think about that?
	I mean, if I had Seth Shostak here, it seems to me you've got more disagreement with him than you do with Stan Friedman.
	Well, Seth and I have respectfully disagreed for years about many of the specifics of our research, but the fundamentals, I think we are in agreement that we are in a universe that's teeming with life.
	And that we have at least one set of tools that has a fighting chance of detecting that life.
	All right, but again, I'm going to say it again.
	Maybe you don't want to admit it, or maybe you do.
	You would have more difference with Seth Shozak from the SETI Institute than you do with Stan, yes?
	Well, Stan and I have some disagreements also.
	I think SETI, like all science, demands a healthy skepticism.
	And my approach to Seth's research, to my own research, to Stan's research, is show me undisputable facts.
	That's the key point.
	In my article about UFOs, the challenge to city specialists is that all the city people, the city institute people, if you will, present company accepted, however you want to put that, ignore the facts about flying saucers.
	They all mention flying saucers.
	UFOs shows up in all the books, but never with any reference to the huge amount of data.
	They're proclamations without a basis.
	And as a scientist, I am personally affronted when scientists make proclamations without having done their homework.
	It's easy to say there is no evidence, or the evidence isn't convincing.
	Without dealing with that evidence, what meaning do those claims have?
	None, as far as I'm concerned.
	In other words, if you look at the references given, I reference SETI stuff because I try to pay attention to it.
	I'm interested in the search for extraterrestrial intelligence.
	Uh, when they talk about UFOs, they don't reference any of the large-scale scientific studies.
	That's one of my pet peeves.
	If you're gonna talk about, make a pronouncement from on high because your professor's so-and-so, doctor's so-and-so, whatever, editor's so-and-so, they're just as bad, uh, then you should study the evidence first.
	Personal opinions aren't the same as professional opinions.
	To my mind, anyway.
	This is why, and precisely why, I defer to experts in the field of ufology, people like Stanton Friedman, who have done their research.
	Now, Stan has been one of the first to admit that there are, in the UFO field, charlatans, and of course there are in the SETI field as well, so we have to be very careful when we analyze data.
	Hey, what did you just say?
	What did you just say?
	You mean there are charlatans?
	You said yourself that there are charlatans in the UFO field.
	What?
	Yes, and?
	And there are charlatans in the SETI field as well, certainly.
	In all fields, there are people who would distort their fact.
	We had proof of that three years ago, last time I was on this very show, with the EQ Pegasi hoax, a claimed detection that turned out to be totally bogus.
	And, uh... While we're on the subject, either one or both of you want to comment on Planet X?
	Sure.
	Yeah, I've done some recent looking.
	I'll step back from that and say some people are claiming there's a huge planet out there that's going to destroy because it's going to come close.
	What is it, the mid-June of next year, isn't it, Art?
	In the spring, yes.
	Well, okay, in the spring.
	And I went back to try to find out, well, where does this come from?
	And I found out that the problem is that excellent astronomers like Robert Harrington from the Naval Observatory Many years ago, we looked at the calculations of the orbits of the planets and found that they weren't quite right.
	The measurements didn't match what the calculations showed they should match.
	And so we started looking.
	Maybe there's another body out there.
	I mean, Pluto, you know, it affects the orbits of two other planets nearby.
	Uranus and Neptune, the same thing.
	We inferred their existence and then looked and, gee, look what's there.
	And it turns out Two things have happened.
	One, we've discovered there's a whole bunch of stuff out there in the Kuiper Belt.
	Lots of little pieces of flotsam and jetsam, I don't know, planetary material if you want to call it that, are out there.
	None of them are very large.
	But we also found out, and here's the key thing, that those calculations were actually somewhat off.
	There are no residuals, as they say, differences between observation and measurement.
	The calculations weren't up to snuff, and we can do a much better job today.
	So, I am not at all convinced that there's a planet out there, and certainly not one that's going to bother us next year, or the year after, or any time.
	All right, let me quickly read from abcnews.com.
	astronomers may have found hints of a massive distance still unseen object at the edge of the solar system of
	perhaps a tenth planet perhaps a failed companion star that appears to be
	Shoving comets toward the inner solar system from an orbit three trillion miles away
	This comes from two teams of scientists one in England one at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette
	independently report this conclusion based on the highly elliptical orbits of so-called long-period comets that
	originate from an icy cloud of of debris far, far beyond Pluto.
	We were driven to this by rejecting everything else we could think of, according to the University of Louisiana physicist Daniel Whitmer.
	Well, that's interesting, Art, because that's consistent with the nemesis theory that's been articulated for the last 25 years or so by... Or Planet X.
	...by Muller at the University of California at Berkeley.
	Yeah.
	And the nemesis, the unseen companion star hypothesis, suggests That there is a massive object that periodically dislodges comets and lobs them at Earth, and that explains the periodic mass extinctions that we have seen.
	It's a good hypothesis.
	If it's true, then we have several billion years to go, or several million years to go, rather, until the next mass extinction on Earth, so we'd better get working on our interstellar travel right now.
	It means I don't need to worry about it if it's several million years?
	No, but our descendants will have migrated by then, we hope.
	Well, Paul, would you say there is Is there real evidence that such a massive object exists, or is this something that falls out of, I can't find another explanation, so it must be it.
	There is certainly good circumstantial evidence that something caused the mass extinction, and that something most likely was dislodging of comets.
	Now, what physically is causing that disruption of the Oort Cloud, I think you've got to pick at hypotheses here, and this is a workable hypothesis, but it's not really being proven.
	On the other hand, it's awfully hard to disprove.
	Yeah.
	Alright.
	Well, at least I wanted to touch on it.
	So, where would you two say the biggest areas of disagreement between you two are?
	I see you two as pretty close, frankly.
	We are very close because we are both, I like to say, I like to think we're both responsible scientists.
	Where we differ is in how we choose to apply our resources.
	Doctor, is Seth Shostak a responsible scientist?
	Yes, I would say he is, even though he and I disagree on many details of how to do research.
	More details than you disagree with regard to Stan?
	Oh, I'd say it's on a par.
	Okay, that's as close as we're going to get, I guess.
	Uh, so the major differences between Stan and yourself would be... In how we choose to apply our limited resources.
	I am schooled as a radio astronomer.
	I am a lifelong radio amateur.
	I like building antennas and receivers, and I'm good at it.
	And this is an area where I can physically design an experiment and test hypotheses.
	I don't know how to design an experiment to cause an extraterrestrial spacecraft to land in my yard.
	But I do know how to design an experiment to cause extraterrestrial photons to land in my yard, so that's what I concentrate on.
	My approach is that my background leads me, having worked on far out advanced technology systems and worked under security, which Paul has too, so he's not ignorant about security and he doesn't make some of the strange comments that have been made by city specialists about national security.
	I want to look at the evidence that they're here.
	I want to look in detail.
	I've been to 19 archives.
	Uh, look at some government documents we have, like the Operation Majestic 12 documents discussed in Top Secret Magic, M.A.G.
	By the way, I have to compliment you on that very fine book, Stan.
	Well, thank you.
	Thank you.
	Uh, it's still available from me, even if the bookstores don't carry it anymore.
	Well, everybody's right about limited resources.
	Now, uh, Doctor, uh, Dr. Chuck, if you, if you, uh, have read his book, And if you became convinced that in fact we have been visited and or are being visited right now, why not take your resources and apply them to search for what may be already here or in orbit or has been here or taking your money and trying to prove that it's already happened and so what are we looking for?
	I think he's using his resources for that, aren't you?
	Although I'm not totally convinced, I'm certainly open to the possibility.
	Why I do not choose to do that search myself, for the same reason I do not choose to try to make a killing in Wall Street.
	Well, it's got to be because... I know what I'm good at, and I know what I'm not good at.
	It's got to be because you're more convinced that it's baloney that they haven't... No, no.
	There are people like Stan who are doing the research, and doing it in an incredible way.
	I will defer To them.
	Stan uses the term SETI specialist.
	I think this is an important term and an appropriate one because we do in the sciences and in technology tend to specialize.
	We put our skills and energies to work in a direction where we think we can make the greatest contribution.
	There are a lot of people out there who are capable of doing UFO research.
	I salute them.
	I wish them well.
	I am one of many people capable of doing astrophysical research using radio telescopes and I will continue to concentrate On what I know best, and I'll encourage Stan to concentrate on what he knows best, hoping that we will, of course, share our findings.
	Doctor, if you were to find a very loud signal with your 12-foot dish, like the 12-footer I got back here, who would you call first?
	Would you call a newspaper?
	Would you call the government?
	Would you call Stan?
	Would you call me?
	Who would you call?
	The protocols that the SETI League has adopted are that we run, first of all, a diagnostic on our equipment to make sure that it's not lying to us.
	No, I'm saying you've already got the wow-wow.
	Then we have to run a diagnostic on ourselves to make sure we're not lying to us.
	Right.
	Then, with 1,250 SETI League members around the world, we have our own email lists through which we disseminate this information in a systematic way so that we can get independent verification from around the world.
	Once that has been achieved, once we are convinced that what we're seeing is real and duplicable and verifiable, then we tell everybody.
	And I'd be delighted to be on your show telling everybody through your wonderful audience and your great radio network.
	Well, I can assure you.
	I can assure you that once you send out the emails, you'd be telling everybody.
	Right, this is our intention.
	This is not the sort of thing we would want to keep private or secret, because after all, this is a message that impacts all of humanity.
	If we manage to receive a verifiable signal, we all need to know about it.
	And if our government were to come to you before all the emails went out, somehow they found out, just before all the emails went out, and they came to you and they said, Doctor, you've made a great find.
	This is something we've known about for years.
	This is an absolute national security issue.
	It's an issue for the security of the entire world, in fact.
	And we're asking you, as a patriotic American, to hold off.
	That puts me in a difficult position, because I can respect national security needs to a point.
	But the question is, how long would we hold off?
	And that's a difficult one to answer without having more specifics.
	I would probably want to know a little bit more about why they're making that request before I would know exactly how to respond.
	But it's kind of moot because by the time I verified the signal, my colleagues in Eastern Europe and Australia and South Africa have already verified the signal.
	Well, the process of verification is already pretty well underway to the point that as soon as something is detected by one station, There is a closed email list that immediately relays the coordinates and the frequency and the specifics to all of our other stations around the world.
	Well, if this government that you both admit lies like a bandit and watches us all very carefully and intercepts any email that goes anywhere, anytime that seems important to it, it could crush that baby in the crib.
	Well, that's the beauty of amateur radio.
	Many of our members are hams.
	Have you ever tried to stop a ham radio signal from propagating around the world?
	It can't be done.
	Now, if we could only get one of these hams to find a crash saucer, as a matter of fact, Nessie Marcel was a ham radio operator.
	Well, there's a G5 RV.
	That's a private joke.
	Anyway, so I'm still looking for areas where the two of you Basically disagree, and I don't find them.
	I see... Well, yes, there is an area.
	Stan has said on some occasions that SETI is a waste of time and money.
	Yep.
	I agree that it may be a waste, but on the other hand, it's my time and my money I'm wasting.
	I'm free to waste it any way I please.
	I wouldn't object to that.
	Would it be a waste of...
	U.S.
	government money, Stan?
	Well, Congress certainly thought so, and that's why they cancelled the NASA City program.
	Yes, I'd like to see a return of government funding to SETI.
	On the other hand, SETI is doing pretty well privatized, and maybe it's a good thing, because after all, the minute governments get involved in science, the project ends up taking twice as long, costing twice as much, and working hard as well.
	Alright, fine.
	Let's forget about the money.
	Whether it's private, or whether it's public.
	Stan, is it a waste of time?
	Compared, if the question is, is there intelligent life besides from Earth, then I think the money is much better spent on serious ufology.
	But I think the government's already spending that in one of its black programs.
	So it's hard to balance these.
	The government has within its purview all kinds of efforts that we don't know about.
	The Director of Central Intelligence admitted a black budget of only $26 billion that year, six years ago.
	So, uh, I think they're already spending a lot of money on that.
	And a waste of time.
	Uh, is the SETI thing a waste of time?
	Yes.
	Some of it is, but that's their privilege to waste that time.
	It's their time they're wasting.
	It's not my time they're wasting.
	Uh, if it was government, well... Alright, uh, you would specify then, then, if it was taxpayer dollars and an open program, you would say waste of time.
	Compared to other ways to achieve the same objective.
	In other words, if your objective is to find out about extraterrestrial intelligence... Doctor, that's your objective, right?
	To find out about extraterrestrial intelligence.
	That is your objective, right?
	And for that reason, I believe that Stan's research and ours are complementary.
	And both worthy of time and effort on the part of those most expert in those fields.
	I wonder how many PhD theses have been done all together on the two areas, or at least a dozen on ufology.
	There must be much more than that, Paul, aren't there, on Radio Astronomy?
	There have been many dissertations written on Radio Astronomy, but very few on SETI, because in the scientific community, Stan, SETI is still somewhat of a four-letter word.
	You mean like truth for the government?
	Well, I cannot disparage my government too vigorously here, because after all, I am part of the government's conspiracy.
	After all, I pay taxes.
	I live in Canada.
	So you also pay taxes to a different government?
	Yeah, we're a peaceful country.
	I think this subject comes up in that documentary which it's going to be on tonight about, you know, government versus people.
	Stanton T. Friedman is real.
	it's a snapshot of a life which is hard to capsulate.
	All right, well that's a second plug for you.
	I want to hear about the SETI League.
	SETI League plug time.
	www.setileague.org or drop us an email to radio at setileague.org.
	Leave your name and postal address.
	We'll be happy to send you a brochure showing how you as an ordinary citizen can become involved in the direct search for radio evidence.
	Perhaps not the only evidence.
	But certainly a compelling tool for seeking our place in the cosmic community.
	Now, to do that, you would ideally have a satellite dish.
	Maybe one of the big C-band 12-foot satellite dishes and that would be enough, right?
	Along with a few conversions or something?
	Well, that's what our 115 stations around the world are using right now.
	Converted backyard satellite TV dishes in the 3 to 5 meter diameter range.
	That's 10 to 15 feet or so.
	Uh, you add some electronics, which, uh, we help our members to construct, and we identify sources.
	Right.
	Our SETI League tech manual gives an awful lot of this information, and there's detailed construction information in my new hypertext book, Tune In the Universe, which is available through the non-profit SETI League, and also, uh, linked from the Art Bell website.
	Uh-huh.
	Tune in the Universe is a hyper-textbook on CD-ROM.
	You read it on your computer using your web browser software.
	It's compatible with Windows, Unix, and Macintosh systems, and it leads you step-by-step through the process of constructing your own radio telescope.
	It also tells you how to do the search.
	It gives you an overview of the history of SETI, some of the technology... Okay, we're at a break here, so I've got to stop you.
	Stan, all of that a benign waste of time?
	No, I don't think so.
	I think it's got people involved.
	That's good.
	Alright, hold on.
	Both of you, hold on.
	You agree-ers, you hold on.
	I'm Art Bell from the high desert.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	Some velvet morning when I'm straight.
	I'm gonna open up your gate.
	And maybe tell you about Phaedra.
	And how she gave me life.
	And how she made it in.
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	To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
	These are two great men in their own fields.
	A nuclear physicist, Stanton Friedman, and Dr. Paul Schock, who is He has been head of the SETI League and continues to be involved in the SETI League.
	And they both, frankly, have a great deal in common.
	In fact, really all three of us have a great deal in common in terms of what we're looking for, what we imagine might be true.
	So what I think I'll do is to begin opening the phone lines for the audience and let them field your questions.
	That's coming right up.
	By the way, when I'm in the next hour, 2 a.m.
	Pacific Time, in about, I don't know, 47 minutes or so from now, I will be myself radiating heavily on 3830 on the 75 meter ham band.
	That's 3830, 3830 on the 75 meter ham band.
	You might find it very, very interesting.
	Ham radio is an awful lot of fun, as the good doctor, I'm sure, would tell you, isn't it, doctor?
	Oh, absolutely.
	Ham Radio is a training ground for all kinds of technological careers.
	I mean, you and I got our start in Ham Radio, and look where it's taken us.
	I have directly Ham Radio to thank for being here right now.
	If it wasn't for Ham Radio, I wouldn't be here.
	And by the way, I'm looking at you hard on your webcam picture right now with that beautiful hamshack in the background.
	I've got to compliment your Arecibo Observatory t-shirt.
	Now, next time I'm going to send you a Citi League shirt to wear next What size do you wear?
	Medium large?
	Extra large?
	Probably extra large. I'll send you an extra large. Okay.
	Thank you. That's very nice of you.
	And yes, indeed, I do have a Arecibo t-shirt on right now.
	Seth sent that.
	Now, what I'd like to do for the two of you is to kind of expose you to the public right now and see where that takes
	us.
	You're obviously pretty good friends and you have more points of agreement than you do disagreement.
	There's no question about it.
	I think you'd probably work well together.
	You both think that?
	Yeah, I believe so, yes.
	Yeah, I agree.
	All right, now this phone system may get a little rebellious when I try to bring somebody else on, so let's see what happens.
	First time caller line, you're on the air with Santon Friedman and Dr. Paul Schock.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Yes, sir.
	Hi.
	Hi, my name's John.
	I'm calling from 610 WTVN listening area in Columbus.
	Hey, John.
	Hi.
	Well, it's kind of a two-part question.
	Given the brain's capacity for storing information, it seems like forever, and the way the universe
	goes on forever, I was wondering if anyone had thought that maybe they were complementary
	creations.
	I'm not sure what complementary creations mean.
	I'm not either.
	Well, coming from a biblical standpoint, I don't have much of another one, but I feel
	like we're supposed to live forever given the capacity of our brain.
	The universe seems to be almost infinite, and I asked Art, what if we're quarantined
	to this planet until we get rid of the way we destroy things?
	What if God's not letting us go out into the universe because we just mess it up?
	Alright, alright, alright. It really doesn't matter.
	See, that's what I mean about phone systems. I sound like I'm suddenly in the bottom of a barrel.
	Hold on a minute, gentlemen. I'm going to try and correct this situation.
	I'm not sure we're going to be able to take callers because of exactly that weird phenomena.
	And I think I've got you both back now.
	You brought up the word quarantine again.
	Yeah, I like to use that.
	He looks at it from the biblical perspective.
	But I don't think it matters whether we're talking about God or whether we're talking about A very advanced race who to us would be God-like.
	If they looked at our behavior right now, do you both think we'd be essentially quarantined?
	I think so.
	John raises a good question, and I don't think we really need to look to an external force, be it a deity or an extraterrestrial force, to quarantine us.
	I think we tend to quarantine ourselves through our own short-sightedness and closed-mindedness.
	And as we grow out of that and develop a more positive cosmic consciousness, perhaps we will discover capacities in ourselves that we can now only begin to imagine.
	We have a situation between India and Pakistan right now that could result in nuclear war.
	And then you could imagine that it would even expand from that and God help us become worldwide in some twisted way that we don't quite understand right now, but once the bombs begin to explode, who knows?
	If there really are extraterrestrials watching us...
	Do the two of you imagine that they would intervene or simply wait for the new real estate to become available?
	I think it would be nice to imagine a benevolent external force that would want to protect us from ourselves, but I also believe that's probably wishful thinking.
	Sad to say, and of course I've been in India and I have many friends from Pakistan, they're both countries with so much potential and so much tragedy.
	I really can only hope that we can transcend these petty differences, because if we can't agree amongst ourselves on this planet, how can we hope ever to be admitted into the cosmic community?
	Stan?
	Yeah, I think that they would properly quarantine us, but I don't think that they'd interfere with us as such.
	In other words, it's one thing to make a mess of our own planet, which we seem to do,
	be doing a pretty good job of.
	It's another thing to let the mess makers go out and wreak their havoc someplace else.
	So I think their concern is making sure that we don't take our brand of friendship,
	which everybody else calls hostility, out there.
	That's what concerns me, that from their viewpoint, try to look at us as they must see us.
	And wow, it's a pretty depressing picture.
	Alright, so both of you then agree, no intervention in the case of something catastrophic like the beginning of a nuclear holocaust?
	It's already happened before.
	If I were writing the Prime Directive, I think that would be one of my basic rules.
	The pity of it all is we have some wonderful radio astronomy facilities in India.
	The GMRT, the Giant Meter Wave Radio Telescope.
	using ropes and and stressed parabolas and trusses to pull all this stuff together very very cheaply what we like to
	call the Indian rope trick they are absolute geniuses in that part
	of the world at developing wonderful technology Unfortunately that same capacity for technology has led
	them to the nuclear brink Yes, very sad comment, isn't it?
	Mm-hmm All right
	Wild Card Line, you're on with this dynamic duo here, Stanton Friedman and Doc Balshuk.
	Hello!
	Hello, do you hear me?
	We hear you.
	Great.
	Hey, Stan, Paul, I really appreciate you guys devoting your life to this amazing science.
	And I'm familiar with a little stranger in the Pentagon.
	That's interesting.
	Anyway, it's Bob from L.A.
	here, and I was just going to ask, Basically, Paul, what he thinks about that two superpowers, a while back, the Soviet Union had an automatic arming of the nuclear weapons, and we had, they had a system where their systems all went up green, they all went down red, and they contacted the United States, our president, and our Pentagon, and what happened, and there was an investigation into it.
	and we both made, we started disarming ourselves after that event.
	Oh no, no, no.
	Actually, actually, Kolar, let's add to that a little bit.
	There was an event here in the US in which saucers were seen hovering above ICBM installations
	and they shut those damn things down.
	Now we know that to be true.
	Then an event occurred in the Soviet Union, a similar event where actually they went into
	countdown.
	They ripped those panels apart trying to figure out how it happened, but there were saucers
	seen there as well.
	That's true.
	So yeah, guys.
	Exactly.
	And guess what came of this?
	We got SDI and the Russians are building it and we went together.
	It's a joint effort between the United States and the Soviet Union.
	So we both built a system like SDI.
	Who's the enemy?
	And I think it's those individuals who are in those crafts making our...
	Nuclear weapons unable to be launched.
	Okay.
	Stan, you probably... Let me reset everything once again.
	Hold on.
	Let's see.
	Reset.
	This is ridiculous that I have to go through this.
	But I'm willing to do it.
	Let's see.
	First, let's do that.
	And then let's do... See, I think we just... We just lost... We lost everybody.
	Having to pull so many tricks with this telephone system has resulted in my losing both of my guests.
	I'll tell you what I'm gonna do.
	I'm gonna get hold of Stan first because I think he should be the first one to respond to this.
	It did happen and we've heard this from all kinds of people.
	Okay, so let's first get Stan back in.
	This is going to make it very difficult to take calls because we're going to constantly lose people the way the setup is running right now.
	Stan, are you there?
	Yeah, I'm here.
	Okay, you obviously heard the whole question.
	This is an amazing story and I don't know if you can address this this caller's concerns. I mean he was saying
	look they stopped ICBMs here, they actually put Russians in launch condition
	and and then shortly thereafter we all began to talk about disarmament and we...
	we began to talk about and you know the wall came down that wall came down and
	all the rest of it isn't it possible that there was a really big
	demonstration made and it was so convincing that both powers said well
	okay we see what you mean I think it's certainly possible there's so much
	going on in that realm of high-level military actions we don't hear about
	Well, we hardly hear about any of it in general.
	We're fortunate that some of the people involved on the U.S.
	side on the shutting down the ICBMs, a guy named Salas and others, have been willing to talk about it.
	But we don't know how many more times that's happened.
	But can you confirm the basics of what that caller said?
	That in fact, our ICBM sites were, there were things hovering over them and those ICBMs, that's a true story?
	Yes, that's a true story.
	I've talked to the guy who, one of the people who was involved, there's some documentation around about it.
	Yeah, it happened.
	It's a scary It's scary from a government viewpoint, because if aliens can do it, maybe our enemies can do it, too.
	Okay, well, I believe I saw, it was like a 2020 or one of those programs on what happened in the Soviet Union, where they actually went into a damn countdown with ICBMs, with craft hovering over.
	I mean, that's serious stuff.
	Is it possible, then, that both governments understood that What they were doing had to stop.
	I think it's possible, but whether you convince the guys in the White House and the Kremlin forever, you know, because things change.
	What about you, Dr. Shuck?
	Are you aware of these stories?
	Do you put them down as myth, or do you think they might be so?
	Well, I have no direct knowledge of the extraterrestrial craft that are alleged.
	However, I do know that there have been times that we have gone to high alert and then stood down.
	I want to thank Bob for the question.
	For one thing, it shows us that there is intelligent life in Los Angeles.
	Now, in fact, the former Soviet Union had a very strong SETI program.
	I know they have extremely high level of interest in these matters, but I think what the story tells us more important is about our own terrestrial communications capability.
	I'm not giving away any government secrets to say that I was in the 1960s in the Air Force in communications, and I did some work with the White House Communications Agency, so I'm no stranger to hotlines, and I can tell you that it's a great uh... relief to me
	that when we reach a high alert state there is communication between the heads
	of government and more than once it has prevented war no matter what had
	stimulated the uh... the arming of the missiles the fact is our leaders on both
	sides have a good sense to talk to each other and i think that is our hope for
	the future is to maintain good communication worldwide alright gentlemen uh... here's
	another one for you since it's so hard to go to the phones uh... everybody
	if you would just fast blast me the questions and we'll do it that way
	you can do that on my website uh... uh... alright doctor steven grier
	of the uh... disclosure project uh... ccd
	uh... just wrote a pretty i think important uh... white paper to consider
	and i have a program last night talking about entitled cosmic deception let the
	citizen beware and boiled down i mean it's fascinating reading i don't know if
	either one of you have yet read it Not yet, I've got it on my, I'm ready, but not yet.
	No, I haven't, it had a chance to read it.
	Here's what it boils down to.
	He is convinced, uh, by talking to military witnesses, And people that he considers to be very credible, who have the clearances and all the rest of it, that there is, in the planning stages, a cosmic deception that, one way or the other, we possess technology that we have back-engineered, or saucers that we have, or God knows what we have developed.
	You both admit we probably have.
	And that, because we don't have a good enemy right now to keep up this $1 billion a day spending on defense, there's going to be a staged Event, something so horrifying, so scary that the world would quickly unite and the defense contractors would quickly bloat as we tried to get our space war weapons ready.
	Oh, science fiction authors have long speculated that it would take a common enemy to bring Earth together.
	I would love to see our planet cooperating, although I would hope that it would not be in the capacity of waging war against our neighbors.
	Ronald Reagan several times said, you know, if only, if there were an alien presence, we and the Russians would unite.
	I don't know what that means, really, because I see a planet on which the seeking of power is a primary concern of people on, of many different countries.
	And I don't know that they're willing to give that up.
	And, you know, if you have a united planet, who runs the show?
	Who speaks for the planet?
	That's a problem we haven't solved.
	So, uh, I think... George, George Bush.
	I don't think the planet looks upon George Bush as the spokesman for planet Earth, or even the son of a Bush.
	I didn't say they did, but George Bush may feel that way about it.
	In other words, whoever's running the biggest organization in the country is the one that's probably going to end up running things, if everything Unites and so I'm not really it could be any American president.
	I mean America right now is the last standing superpower.
	So whether it's President Bush or it would have been any other president or will be any other president.
	That's what I'm asking.
	Do you believe that something could be staged for that express purpose for fattening the contractors for building space weapons for uniting the world Well, it wouldn't be the first time that opportunists have taken advantage of an outside event to line their own pockets.
	And I think Stephen Greer is right to the extent that we have the capacity for staging whatever event we wish.
	Now, whether he has inside information or not is another matter altogether.
	I think, again, it falls into the area of interesting speculation.
	Yeah, I agree.
	Interesting speculation.
	I am not with Steve when it comes to the notion that the government's got free energy technology and a whole bunch of other things that they're covering up.
	You don't think so?
	Well, I think they have... But wait a minute, Stan.
	In a way, you ought to be with him because you're saying we do have levels and levels and levels of technology above what the American people know about right now.
	Most of it's very expensive, Art.
	That's the problem.
	Oh, I know, I understand, but... Well, where Dr. Greer and I part company is that he seems to attribute all of our advanced technology to extraterrestrial influences.
	And I don't... I think that's selling humankind short.
	I think we have a tremendous ability to develop very good technology on our own.
	Witness our ability to destroy our planet, should we choose to.
	We didn't get that from extraterrestrials.
	We did that ourselves.
	Well, we got that from people like Stan.
	Hey, hey, hey, how did I get on the hot seat there?
	Hey, you two, hold on, all right?
	We're at the bottom of the hour and we'll be right back.
	Set and Friedman, Dr. Paul Schock.
	My guest, I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	You get a shiver in the dark, it's raining in the past, the meantime.
	Sound of the river, you stop and you hold everything.
	A band is blowing, Dixie, double ball time.
	You feel alright, when you hear the music ring.
	One, two, three.
	You feel alright.
	Once upon a time, once when you were mine I remember your sighs, reflected in your eyes
	I wonder where you are, I wonder if you think about me Once upon a time, we had the wildest dreams
	Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nigh from west of the Rockies at 1-800-632-4333
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
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	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
	It is that, uh, nuclear physicist Stan Friedman and Art Hall Schacher are my guests, both very nice gentlemen.
	Uh, both actually more in agreement than disagreement on most points, actually.
	At least that's, uh, sort of my assessment.
	And, uh, that's just fine.
	We'll continue to sort of pummel them with interesting questions if you will remain right where you are.
	Somebody sent me a picture of a really funny billboard, I thought it was funny anyway, that was in Canada, and the billboard had a picture of, you know, the Canadian maple leaf, and it said on it, Canada leads the world in being just north of the United States.
	Um, you know, a lot of Canadians took umbrage to that and said, well, they said a lot of things that I can't repeat here.
	Uh, I actually love Canada.
	In fact, I'm going to be traveling in Canada.
	The first opportunity I get, I've traveled extensive.
	I love Canada.
	So I didn't mean anything nasty, but I was just, uh, I thought it was funny, but you do lead the, I'll tell you what.
	Stanton, I'm going to give you another shot at a plug here, because not only do you lead us in being just north, but you're going to be on a program that we're not going to get to see, right?
	That's right, at least not for a while, if ever.
	There's a documentary tonight, Wednesday night, all across Canada on the Canadian Space Channel.
	It's 7 o'clock Eastern.
	And up and down as you go east or west.
	It's called Stanton T. Friedman is real!
	Exclamation point.
	It's a documentary.
	It was shot in California in Roswell here in beautiful Fredericton.
	What's it going to be about?
	Tell me about the program a little bit.
	It tells you sort of my life story, encapsulated.
	It has me a little lecturing, responding to questions about various aspects of UFOs.
	Wandering around Roswell, giving my talk out at the MUFON convention in Irvine, California.
	You know, you can't tell a whole lifetime, not the kind of crazy one I've led in one hour, but it's a pretty good shot at it.
	And it talks to a couple of critics as well.
	And I thought they did a pretty good job.
	I was a little worried.
	You never know what people are going to edit into things, you know?
	You never know.
	And the only uncomfortable point part for me was Listening to the critics and having responses and not being able to respond.
	I wasn't there when they were filmed.
	So, you know, that's part two, I guess.
	Maybe so.
	All right.
	Well, so we're not going to get to see it.
	Darn.
	All right.
	And Dr. Paul Jacques, one more plug, if you would, for the SETI League.
	You're a really interesting group.
	You're a ham like I am.
	I have a very great deal in common with you.
	And you have, I think, a great plan, and that is to get people together who've got 12-foot dishes or better and do a little conversion.
	and actually be out there looking.
	You guys could be the ones, or the SETI at home people could be the ones,
	to find the wow signal that they're looking for at Arecibo and other big dishes that are very narrow, right?
	Well, we don't know who's going to be the first to make the detection,
	but I do know that the more telescopes you have looking, the better your odds.
	And radio amateurs around the world and hobbyists and experimenters,
	and even laymen, have the opportunity to be a part of this global grassroots search.
	You can get involved by going to our website, www.setileague.org, or drop us an email.
	Those of you listening on the radio can email to radio at setileague.org,
	or for those of you who don't have internet access, Internet access or email there is always the old-fashioned telephone line.
	The membership hotline is 1-800-TAU-SETI.
	That's T-A-U-S-E-T-I.
	Give me just the numbers if you got them.
	1-800-828-SETI 7384, which spells Tau Seti, T-A-U-S-E-T-I.
	That's the membership hotline.
	Don't call now because I can't answer that phone.
	I'm talking to you right now.
	After we sign off, just leave your name and postal address on the hotline or in your email to radio at setilig.org.
	We'll get a brochure right off to you.
	So you guys pay for an 800 line, that's pretty good.
	1-800-828-7384, correct?
	That's it.
	Okay, um... Mark, can I give my post office box address for anybody who wants free information?
	People love free information, Stan.
	Yeah, they do.
	Stan Friedman, Post Office Box 958, Houlton, Maine, 04730- Send a self-addressed stamped envelope.
	You'll get free information, a list of my papers and stuff like that.
	We even have a $30 special, two books and a CD-ROM.
	Send checks.
	Can't take credit cards now.
	Alright, give the address again.
	Nobody ever gets it first time.
	Yeah, Post Office Box 958.
	Houghton, H-O-U-L-T-O-N.
	Maine, MA 04730-0958 And my web address is, my website address is on yours
	www.v-j-enterprises.com slash sfpage.html
	Go to my website.
	Hit the link.
	Listen, Raymond in San Leandro asks both of you, what about, nobody ever seems to talk about these ocean cases.
	We have people who have been on Navy ships, aircraft carriers, who have seen large UFOs Emerge from or or dive into our ocean now you've got to remember we've had more water than we've got land on the world and and this is a whole separate class of
	Of UFOs.
	Comments?
	I need to comment that when people ask, do UFOs exist, I have to say, absolutely, by definition.
	UFO means something that is in the sky that you cannot identify.
	And certainly, this phenomenon fits that description.
	Whether it is an extraterrestrial manifestation or not, I don't know.
	But certainly, it is unknown, unidentified.
	It is a flying object, therefore worthy of study.
	Yeah, there have been many such reports.
	Even scarier to me, though, when it comes to Navy reports or aircraft carrier reports where, you know, four pilots go up and only two come back.
	Yes.
	Same thing up in the northern reaches of Canada.
	You know, several pilots scrambled.
	Some of them don't come back.
	And that may be one of the reasons they're not telling us what's going on, because we've lost pilots to aliens who say, hey, get off my back.
	Alright, another subject.
	I've got a quick blast here from Lex in Virginia Beach, Virginia, and he's a contactee, and then there are abductees.
	Now, this gets a little further out on the fringe.
	Abduction cases.
	Stan?
	Yeah, I'm satisfied that many earthlings have indeed been abducted by aliens.
	Are you?
	Yes, I am.
	I'm well acquainted with, say, Bud Hopkins, David Jacobs, John Mack, I'm satisfied that their research is quite legitimate.
	What it all means, I don't know.
	One can think of reasons for, you know, whether it's hybridization or lab experiments.
	I cut up a frog when I was in school.
	Maybe alien guys to get their degree have to pick up a certain number of abductees.
	On the other hand, it could just be grad students on spring break.
	Yeah, sure!
	Now, I've never been abducted, and I honestly don't know anyone who's been abducted, so I have to maintain a somewhat more healthy skepticism on the subject.
	Well, I haven't been abducted either, but I do know people who have been abducted, and it's not... The big difference between contactees, for whom it's a glorious experience where they're being singled out to pass on significant information, almost none of which checks out as being real, and abductee where you're the subject of somebody else's
	experiment apparently you know like a lab a rat in a lab maze um there is a big
	difference there and uh i'm satisfied about abductions i've checked into a lot of contactee
	claims and i can't find any of them that stand up to careful scrutiny on really uh what about i've
	had a number of conversations with a very lovely lady named betty hill and uh she just
	can't stay up late she She'll talk to me on the phone during the day and just talk and talk and talk, but trying to get her to stay up late to come on the show, I just can't seem to do it, Stan.
	I know you know her.
	Maybe you can help out.
	Well, I'll say what I can do.
	Remember, Betty's in her 80s now.
	I'm well aware, yeah.
	Not in great health, but I was the first to publish about the star map work that leads us back to Zeta Reticuli, and I want to correct I made a boo-boo earlier.
	I said that from a planet around one of the two, Zeta-1 or Zeta-2 Reticuli, looking at the other, I said it was 25 to 35 times brighter than Sirius.
	What I meant was 25 to 30 times, what I should have said, brighter than Venus and 350 times as bright as Sirius.
	Alright, well let's ask Dr. Schock.
	Doctor, Zeta Reticuli really does seem like A fertile ground, and since you're separate from the SETI Institute, and you have your fellow ham operators and members of the SETI League who are down under, why not send out a message that we want that looked at, and could they please point that direction and do some real careful listening?
	Well, of course, the SETI League has no direct influence on the star targets, the catalogs... No, no, no, forget the Institute.
	I'm talking about the SETI League itself down under.
	I don't think we have the resources to do targeted searching with our small dishes.
	If we did, certainly Zeta Reticuli would be on our target list, along with several other very interesting stars.
	And if we get larger facilities, we'll certainly be looking at stars in both the northern and the southern skies, specific interesting stars, and Zeta Reticuli would be on that list.
	Well, Doctor, if that's true, and it would be near the top of your list, then why is it not at the top of the SETI Institute's list?
	You'll have to ask Seth next time he's on the program.
	I don't know.
	He didn't want to debate me, did he, Art?
	In fact, I can tell you that from Arecibo, I don't think they can see that, and they are renting time on a telescope that has very limited steering capability.
	Yes, yes, however, they have colleagues in Down Under, indeed.
	Yes, but those colleagues are doing astrophysical research, not SETI, for the most part.
	Radio telescopes spend most of their time looking for natural objects and natural phenomenon.
	If we're lucky we can borrow a little bit of that time, or as the SETI Institute does, spend thousands of dollars to rent a little bit of that time to do SETI research.
	But most of the time those telescopes are not available to us.
	We haven't looked for planets around them either as far as I know.
	We have not.
	We're beginning of course now to find Planets, and it's now thought that planets, even Earth-like sized planets around Earth-like stars, are going to turn out to be rather common.
	They're going to be the rule rather than the exception.
	Just as I can't very easily imagine a nucleus without orbiting electrons around certain glasses of stars, I just can't imagine them without their retinue of planets.
	We've long suspected this.
	In the last seven years, we've gotten abundant evidence About six to seven percent of the stars surveyed by the Marcy and Butler team, the leading planet hunters, about six to seven percent of those stars, they've detected planets around and they're just beginning to learn how to detect them.
	Those are big planets.
	The smaller ones they haven't been able to detect yet.
	We're finding Jupiter-sized planets right now.
	That's an artifact of the instrumentation.
	If you're looking for something and you don't see very well, what you'll see is the big things first.
	If you look at our solar system from 40 light years out, you'll see the Sun and Jupiter.
	And as Arthur Clarke likes to say, our solar system is the Sun and Jupiter and assorted debris.
	All right, but you know, if all these planets are out there, even Earth-like ones, and we have not yet heard a thing, SETI Institute or SETI League, Not so much as one confirmation.
	Not one confirmation of any stray signal that was obviously intelligent life, even sending their version of I Love Lucy or whatever.
	We have nothing.
	Zero.
	Is it possible that the people who say, look, we've been here 6,000 years, God created us literally just the way it says in the Bible, And there is no other life out there, and the guest I had on last week said if there is, it's fairly nearby, and it was seeded from Earth, because that's the only place where life exists.
	I'm not going to begin to limit the capacity of the divine being.
	If you have a God that can create life on Earth, He can create life anywhere he chooses.
	I'm not going to tie his hands.
	Or, conversely, he could decide not to create life, but in one place.
	Well, I wasn't given the choice.
	The fact is, if we have an all-powerful supreme being, and I believe we do, then we should find a universe teeming with life.
	I mean, my wife and I have been given the capacity to create life.
	And between us, we've created seven children.
	Very prolific.
	The fact is, some of my friends have more, some have fewer.
	Some of my friends have chosen to have no children at all.
	Well, how in the world do you ever find the time to listen to anything?
	Well, the fact is... He doesn't need much sleep.
	We didn't stop at one, and I can't imagine a divine creator stopping at one.
	Good analogy.
	I think there's life all over the place, and I think some of it's coming here.
	And it's time we recognize that as part of our view of the universe.
	It's not, they're out there and here we are and never the twain shall meet, sort of Kipling revise.
	Alright then, for both of you, because you both can probably answer this question.
	If there is confirmation, and that means the SETI league discovers a wow signal,
	or the saucer and the physical evidence become absolutely indisputable.
	In other words, whichever one of your disciplines turns out to yield something productive and absolute,
	how would that change Earth? How would that change...
	change.
	Well, Earth wouldn't change.
	How would it change the residents of Earth?
	I think it depends on the nature of the discovery.
	If it's physical evidence here on Earth, that will have more profound implications, I'm willing to concede, than merely the detection of a radio signal from light years away.
	The immediacy would be much greater.
	On the other hand, in both cases, the knowledge that we are not alone would profoundly change our view of our place in the cosmos.
	We would strive to become members of the galactic community, and one can only hope that we would be worthy of membership.
	I don't think we qualify for the cosmic kindergarten yet.
	Frankly, not even a cosmic preschool on some days when things are going bad out there.
	On the other hand, we have to consider the possibility, what if we do the research and do it well, and come up empty, come up completely dry for generations, we do our best science...
	And what if we did come to the conclusion that we are alone?
	I don't believe so, but if that happened, that would profoundly influence us too.
	Because if we are the only game in town, we better take care of our local neighborhood.
	Well, okay.
	Alright, alright.
	How about this one?
	I interviewed people like Dr. Michio Kaku.
	Yes.
	Brilliant mind.
	And he says we're a type 0 planet.
	And he postulates there are many, many, many, many type 0 planets.
	and I don't have enough time to go through all the different types, but suffice it to say, to get from type 0
	to type 1, you have to survive the discovery and the use of element 92,
	and when I really pin them down and I say, Professor, how many such civilizations do you think,
	percentage-wise, survive that discovery and use?
	Uh, he would say almost none.
	On the other hand, Michio knows that of the sample that we have at hand right now, 100% of them have survived that stage, so far.
	So far?
	Us.
	Uh, yeah, but he's looking at longer timelines.
	Yeah, but he's not a soothsayer any more than Paul or I. On the other hand, Michio's speculation is just as valid and just as limited as my own.
	But that's why it's so important if aliens are coming here, somebody got through that stage.
	By the way, Sam Friedman is no Oppenheimer.
	You didn't have anything to do with... No.
	Except those sad nuclear weapons.
	You didn't.
	Did you have the opportunity?
	I suppose I could have looked for that opportunity.
	I worked on more exciting technology, nuclear rockets, nuclear power plants for space.
	I never really sought employment in the nuclear weapons business.
	I'm probably closer to that industry than Stan is because during my Lockheed years, I was developing the missiles used to develop, to deliver those physics experiments.
	No kidding!
	And I must say that I did that with some trepidation.
	And reflecting on it now, Doctor, would you have not done it?
	That's a tough question because if I had declined that particular employment, it would not have stopped the research or the development or the Cold War.
	But isn't that what everybody says?
	Yes.
	Of course it's true that there will always be people willing to develop weapons systems.
	In my case, there were lots of rationales.
	The Vietnam War was still on.
	It was very easy to justify my actions.
	From my perspective now of 30 some odd years later, probably I would have stayed in academia.
	Really?
	Uh, well, I think, again, in closing here, because we are closing, we're running out of time.
	You both have a very great deal of area of agreement, not too much disagreement.
	You're both great guys, and I want to thank you both for being here tonight.
	My pleasure.
	Good night, gentlemen.
	Good night.
	Thanks.
	Right.
	Sorry we couldn't take more calls, folks.
	It was a technical issue, as you heard with the telephone, so we just sort of grabbed them.
	Off the fast blast.
	The computer's wonderful.
	If you have a computer, you can just, uh, fire me a question.
	At any rate, uh, I'm off to the land of 75 meter ham radio dill.
	Uh, be on 3830.
	3 dot 8 3 0 38 30 lower sideband.
	Radiating electromagnetically.
	So, y'all take care.
	I'm gonna go, uh, What I need is somebody in high heels to stand on my back or something.
	Have a great night, everybody.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.

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