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June 13, 2002 - Art Bell

02:39:54

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Hank Wesselman - Shamanism

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01:02:30

hank wesselman

01:09:26

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charlie daniels

03:39

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		High desert and the great American Southwest.
		I've been doing all good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you are on the globe, and we cover one way or the other the entire globe.
		It's great to be here.
		I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast.
		Yeah.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Number one tonight's going to be the website.
		Let me start you out there.
		Do you remember the probably funniest clip in the world?
		Do you remember the Joe and the Deer clip?
		Well, somebody has sent me something that is right on up there with Joe and the Deer.
		I mean, this is really, really good.
		And on my website, you will find it listed as audio, a little comedy clip.
		Well, it's more than a little comedy.
		It's one of the funnier things that I've ever heard.
		So if you want to lift, this will lift your entire day.
		absolutely guaranteed.
		This was apparently a telephone call that a lady made regarding it's I thought about it earlier in the day, and I came real close to playing it on the air, but I decided against it.
		I came real close to playing it here on the air.
		You know, I really would like to, but, you know, it deals kind of there on the line a little bit, and so I opted not to.
		I thought, no, well, you know, that's what the website's for.
		So it's up on the website.
		All I can tell you is this one will put you on the floor.
		It's called a little comedy clip.
		And then we have, it says, old photo of a Legend Perdicto.
		Well, oh, and this chicken, oh my God, the chicken.
		Have you seen the new chickens, the chickens that are genetically altered?
		Oh, yuck.
		We've got pictures of the new genetically better chickens.
		Now, I mean, right away, yeah, you can see the chicken doesn't have any feathers, which has got to make plucking it easier, you know, if you've got to pluck your chicken.
		But other than that, this chicken is one ugly sucker.
		I mean, it's enough to turn you against chicken as far as I'm concerned.
		But it's genetically altered, and they say better, probably better this, better that, better parts, better cooking.
		Then underneath that is a picture of this bird that I wouldn't have said pterodactile, because, well, maybe, but nah, not really.
		But whatever it is, it's an old picture, obviously, from a very old newspaper.
		Whatever this thing is, there's a guy holding it, and it's absolutely blinking gigantic.
		You tell me what it is.
		I have no idea, but it's very interesting.
		So you can go and view these delicious, genetically altered chickens.
		Now, these, before they're turned into chicken meat, and then boy, are they weird.
		And then the old photo, and then, but most of all, a little comedy clip.
		That's a funny, funny clip.
		So, you know, it's one that I just won't quite play on the air, and maybe you'll see why.
		God, it's funny.
		All right, let's see what's going on in the world.
		Zagorias Mazari, this person charged as the September 11th conspirator, denied in court today that he'd been in contact with the hijackers, claiming he has secret information that would set him free.
		Now, he is going to be allowed, I guess, to represent himself in court.
		That's pretty interesting.
		Representing, there was somebody who said somebody who represents themselves is a fool for a lawyer, you know, maybe, maybe not, who knows?
		Maybe it's one of those kinds of things where he knows his goose is cooked, and so he wants to make some speeches, you know.
		Probably not exactly pro-American either, huh?
		So it could be that.
		It could be a lot of things.
		How are they, you know what I'm wondering?
		How are they going to put together a jury to try this guy?
		How are they going to do that?
		I mean, they screen a jury, right?
		And where are you going to find a jury of people in the U.S. without, shall we say, extremely strong feelings about 9-11?
		I mean, really, really, really strong feelings about 9-11.
		There's a lot of things you could have missed in the news, but 9-11 wouldn't have been one of those.
		So that'd be really something to try to get that jury put together.
		The jurors trying to reach a verdict in Arthur Anderson's obstruction of justice trial sent out a stream of questions today after the judge, you'll recall, sent them back in.
		They said, well, we can't get to a verdict.
		He said, well, go back and try again.
		About an hour into today's session, they sent U.S. District Court Judge Belinda Harmon a note hinting that each one of them believes someone at the Chicago-based firm had committed wrongdoing.
		That's a pretty big hint, I would say, from the jury.
		Anderson's lead attorney said that question on its face is very discouraging to us.
		I'm sure it is.
		Shows how they feel.
		All right, I would like to read you something that comes from Dr. Stephen Greer.
	It's kind of long, and I'm not sure I can get all the way through it, but I want you to get a sense of it.
	We also have that up on the website for you.
	And you know what I just noticed?
	Let me go ahead and read as much as I can of it.
	Imagine this.
	It's the summer of 2001.
	Someone presents you with a script for a movie or maybe a book that tells how a diabolical terrorist plot unfolds wherein both 110-story World Trade Center towers and part of the Pentagon are destroyed by commercial jets, hijacked and flown into those structures.
	And of course, you'd laugh.
	And if you were a movie mogul or book editor, rejected outhand as ridiculous and implausible, even for a fictional novel or a movie, after all, how could a commercial jet being trapped on radar after two jets had already hit the World Trade Centers make it through our air defenses into the most sensitive airspace in the world in broad daylight on a clear day and slam into the Pentagon?
	And this is in a country that spends over $1 billion per day to defend itself.
	Absurd, illogical, nobody'd believe it.
	Unfortunately, there are some of us who have seen these scripts and have far worse things to come, and we are not laughing.
	One of the few silver linings to these recent tragedies is that maybe, just maybe, people will take seriously, however far-fetched it may seem at first, the prospect that a shadowy, paragovernmental, transitional entity exists, which has kept UFOs secret and is planning a deception and tragedy that will dwarf the events of 9-11.
	So, what I'm going to do is kind of skip ahead here.
	This is a many-page piece that I highly recommend that you read from Dr. Stephen Greer.
	But basically, it boils down to Dr. Greer believing that indeed there is a concocted scheme to concoct a threat from outer space, you know, involving perhaps exploding nuclear weapons, perhaps involving a lot of things, taking war into space.
	And Dr. Greer worries about war in space, as you know, a very great deal.
	He's complained bitterly, and rightfully so about weapons in space and how others, if they are out there, would react to this sort of thing, right?
	So he thinks it's coming.
	And probably what I should do is, number one, I posted the entire article on the website.
	It's a pretty important article, I think, that Dr. Greer has written.
	And number two, I should probably get Dr. Greer on the air to talk about this.
	This is pretty serious stuff.
	He really believes that for whatever reasons, and he goes into great detail, you know, the military-industrial complex's future, right, at a billion dollars a day.
	You know, we were spending that much money, a billion dollars a day, for every day, a billion dollars on defense.
	And that expenditure will not continue to be justified, really, unless we have some greater threat.
	And so it's not exactly illogical that, you know, they might produce something like that.
	Stay right there.
	We'll be right back.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is pretty interesting stuff.
		This comes from London.
		About half my news, I swear, comes from Great Britain.
		London, England.
		CNN, by the way.
		Scientists have revealed a mysterious recording that they say could be the sound of a giant beast lurking in the depths of the ocean.
		Researchers have nicknamed the strange, unidentified sound picked up by undersea microphones bloop.
		They call it bloop.
		While it bears the varying frequency hallmark of marine animals, so they know it's a marine animal, it is far more powerful than the calls made by any creature known on Earth.
		This is all in Britain's new scientist.
		It is too big for a whale, much too big.
		And one theory is that it actually is, prepare yourself for this, a deep-sea monster, possibly many tentacled, possibly a giant squid.
		In 1997, bloop was detected by U.S. Navy spy sensors 3,000 miles apart.
		Oh, man, that had been put there to detect the movement of Soviet submarines, the magazine said.
		Now, you think about that one for a second.
		Bloop, as they so endearingly have called it, is loud enough to be heard by spy sensors spaced 3,000 miles apart.
		Now, what the hell is that big?
		That would have to be really, really big, wouldn't it?
		So that set me to thinking about, you know, undersea monsters.
		There's plenty of legend around the world, the seafaring world, to support the notion of real monsters, right, coming up out of the sea as long as we have been sailing the seas on Earth.
		There have been consistent, repetitive reports of monsters, and now this, what the Cold War brought us, huh?
		And then here's perhaps pretty good news.
		Once again, source is CNN on this.
		After spotting dozens of planets in exotic orbits, various orbits, scientists now have found, they say, a planetary system that looks similar to our solar system.
		The announcement came Thursday as astronomers described the discovery of 15 new planets in other star systems, including one that resembles Jupiter around a sun-like star.
		Known as 55 Canceri, I believe that is, C-N-C-R-I.
		The star system is about 41 light years away, and that's not that far.
		That's, well, it is.
		It's 41 years traveling at the speed of light.
		And they say it will likely remain a place of particular interest as astronomers begin looking for planets like Earth in the coming years.
		Right now, unfortunately, we can look at the bigger planets in these other systems.
		You know, they show a wobble as they cross the star.
		So we know they're there.
		We just can't see the smaller ones yet because we can't resolve that much wobble yet.
		But they're obviously going to be there.
		The planetary system will be the best candidate for direct pictures when the terrestrial planet finder is launched.
		You see, so we have a special satellite being launched to look for planets in outer space.
		But that's not till later this decade.
		The newly discovered Jovian-like world, the one they have identified, takes about 13 years to revolve around its parent star compared with almost 12 years for Jupiter's journey around the Sun.
		So it's a very similar planet.
		Of course, we found it because it was big.
		But it makes absolute sense.
		There would be smaller worlds, size of Earth, size of Mars, going around the Sun like ours.
		Hey, folks, we're talking about the possibility here of a lot of things.
		You know, like water, air, even air, some sort of atmosphere and definitely the possibility of some kind of life and by the way uh last night uh we had doctor uh uh doctor karlbond and you gotta admit he was a pretty staunch creationist right tonight you get whiplash hank uh wesselman will be here uh he's an anthropologist and uh somehow i doubt seriously he would embrace quickly
		the concept that earth uh and man and all that is has only existed for 6,000 years.
		So this would be a little bit of whiplash for you.
		But this is going to be extremely interesting.
		He's spent a lot of time in altered states on purpose.
		In Nigeria, for example, he spent some time in altered states.
		He's going to be talking about a lot of things here.
		A lot of things tonight, and I think it's going to be very interesting and as stark contrast to last night's fascinating program.
		You know, there is one thing about last night.
		You know, I'm not a creationist.
		At least my idea of creation is that God's hand caused the lightning bolt to hit the soup that caused the life to begin.
		That's how I believe in creation.
		And I think that, you know, you're hearing what I believe right now, but I think that some of what's in Genesis is metaphoric.
		I don't take it that literally.
		I think it's metaphoric.
		Do I think there's a creator and, you know, or whatever you want to call God?
		You bet I do.
		Sure I do.
		But I don't take it that literally, and I think that a god would be able to act in extremely subtle ways as we consider the manner of creation.
		I mean...
	You know, but that would be a very godlike thing to do, the Big Bang, right?
	As I said last night, it seems to me that's a place that people like last night's guests and theoretical physicists, or some of them anyway, could come together.
	Because they sure don't understand that instant of creation from nothing.
	What we would call nothing.
	Something smaller than a quark becoming all that is now.
	You know, that's a leap of faith.
	So it seems to me these different believers could get together in that area.
	And we could agree that there are certain timelines that seem scientifically sound that don't meet up with the 6,000-year criterion, right?
	But nevertheless, that doesn't mean it's not the hand of God.
	You know, I don't take the days as literal.
	For example, God created earth.
	You know, all that is went through the various steps, right?
	Six days.
	Six earth days.
	It says six days, but that could be easily metaphorical, and it could be God has a lot more days than that.
	Could be a million years to one day, right?
	Or any other combination thereof.
	So I kind of believe in both.
	I believe in a creator.
	I think I believe in the Big Bang and most of the solid science about our past.
	In fact, there's probably a whole lot more science that, frankly, has either A, been covered up or B, has not been uncovered yet, depending on how you want to believe it, that we've been around before many times, perhaps, and that our civilization is but one in a long train of them.
	I don't know.
	But it's good to think about this stuff.
	It does your brain good to think about this stuff.
	You've got to get to my website near this audio clip.
	My God, it's a riot.
unidentified		She's got the move on my soul.
		And she knows I love you, love her.
		But she lets me down every time you make a mind.
		She knows me.
		It'll be so inviting.
		I want to roll for myself.
		Oh, temptation has.
		Looking through my, my, my, my, no.
		The temptation has.
		You gotta love me.
		You gotta love me.
		It's dark.
		It's raining in the park meantime.
		Top of the river, you stop and you hold everything.
		A man is going mixing, cover ball time.
		You feel alright when you hear the music ring Music I like step inside, but you don't see too many faces.
		Coming in out of the rain, they hear the cabs go down.
		Competition in other places.
		How about the horns?
		Be blowing that sound.
		Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Die.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, Eisenhower said, beware the military-industrial complex, right?
		Well, I think Greer is right on the money here.
		You're going to want to read this article.
		It's entitled, Cosmic Deception, Let the Citizen Beware by Dr. Stephen M. Greer.
		I recommend its reading.
		Really, I do.
		This is one bright guy, and I think he's probably really onto something here.
		You might want to take a look at this.
		Read the whole thing.
		Take the minutes required to read the whole thing.
		The concept, though, is purely very sound.
		I'd love to get a reaction from any of you out there who listen to this audio clip.
		I'm telling you right now, listen to me now.
		You're having a bad day.
		If things have been going wrong for you, Pookie, and you're in a down mood, all you do is go to my website and you listen to this little thing called Audio, a Comedy, a Little Comedy Clip.
		Oh, my God, it's funny.
		Okay.
		Here we go to the phone lines and the true unknown out there in the nighttime.
		Let us go here first.
		First time caller line, logically, you're on the air.
		Hello?
charlie daniels ▲ ● ▼		I art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
charlie daniels ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, this is almost a godsend just to be able to speak to you.
		I mean, I'm not a real long-time listener.
		It's been like maybe about seven months.
		I had a friend, you know, he sort of turned me on and he said, you need to listen to this guy because you're crazy.
		I said, no, I'm not, but I've been listening to you, and you just super, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Don't rule that out.
		We have crazy people listening.
		There's no doubt about it.
		But, you know, they're welcome.
charlie daniels ▲ ● ▼		They're absolutely.
		I get you on 55KRC Cincinnati.
		It's like a sister station to 700WLW.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, actually?
charlie daniels ▲ ● ▼		I'm in Mason, Ohio, like 22 miles from Cincinnati.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they just, man, they were just banging.
charlie daniels ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, you come through here like gangbusters.
charlie daniels ▲ ● ▼		Everybody loves you here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, what's up?
charlie daniels ▲ ● ▼		What it is, I listened just a few months ago about this shadow people thing you was talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
charlie daniels ▲ ● ▼		And I thought that was a joke.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you?
charlie daniels ▲ ● ▼		I listened to that.
charlie daniels ▲ ● ▼		I drive a semi-truck.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sir, listen to me.
		Listen to me.
		It's not a joke.
		Trust me, it's not a joke.
charlie daniels ▲ ● ▼		I know it is not.
		And let me tell you why it's not a joke.
		I drive a semi-truck I have for 30 years.
		I'm like 56 years old.
		I'm not insane.
		I blew the radiator out of my Subaru car.
		I went over to a junkyard, which belongs to, you know, which belongs to a friend of mine.
		He said, well, just go out there in the yard and see if you can find one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
charlie daniels ▲ ● ▼		I went out there and I walked through the junk cars and I looked.
		I finally found what I needed, but I didn't have the tools to get it out.
		So I had to go back to the house, get the tools.
		When I came back, it was like getting late in the afternoon.
		So I went out there, I started taking the radiator out, and about maybe 75 to 80, maybe even 100 feet away from me, it was just starting to get pitch dark.
		And then I seen like a glow out in the, you know, just out in the junkyard.
		Okay, what is that?
		You know, so I eased over there, got a little bit closer, and you could like see the, it was like, the glow was like if you, you take those little teeny things, you know, those little rods you break into and they put a light out?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Light sticks.
charlie daniels ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's about what the light was.
		It wasn't real bright.
		It was like a light stick or something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you get from a light stick to a shadow person?
charlie daniels ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll tell you how.
		When I got up there, there was like two figures.
		I mean, there's not, it's like not solid figures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
charlie daniels ▲ ● ▼		It's like you could actually see through them, but you could tell they were like two figures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
charlie daniels ▲ ● ▼		You know, and I looked at that and it, I mean, other than, you know, just blowing my mind, I said, what is this?
charlie daniels ▲ ● ▼		You know?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What did you do?
charlie daniels ▲ ● ▼		And when I got up closer, it just faded away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, congratulations, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have had an experience.
charlie daniels ▲ ● ▼		Okay, then.
		Well, that was enough to set me off, you know.
		I go back.
		I tried to get the radiator out.
		I keep looking over there.
		I don't get that light anymore.
		So then the next day, I come back to finish getting the radiator out.
		And I said, what was that?
		Why was it that late in the afternoon that I seen this, you know?
		Yes, and so I came back when it was getting darker.
		And there was that glow again at the same car.
		Okay, I walked away.
		It was the same car.
		the same car.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And?
charlie daniels ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		I mean, it was like a girl was sitting in the passenger seat.
		She had like shoulder-length hair, but you can like see through her art.
		And the guy, he was sitting there, and he was like sitting in the driver's seat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
charlie daniels ▲ ● ▼		He wasn't really doing no movement.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right.
		The way I'm going to rule this then is you've got to imagine, you say shadow people, maybe.
		You know, it's just a phrase.
		It's a word.
		And the paranormal encompasses so many things that he might have been seeing ghosts just as easily.
		In a wreckyard, you'd have a lot of cars that were in accidents.
		You'd have a lot of people who would have died in those cars unexpectedly and with no notice whatsoever who might not even know they're dead.
		So that could as easily be what you saw.
		But either way, welcome to the club.
		You've had an experience that obviously you're not going to be able to explain.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, hello.
unidentified		I'm Mr. Bell.
		Hello.
		I'm an actual prophet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You are a prophet?
unidentified		Yes, sir.
		I can tell you the mechanics of how the paranormal actually works.
		And if I may be so bold, sir, to solve one problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is pretty bold, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, the claim is fairly bold that you can answer all the questions about the paranormal.
unidentified		Not all, because I'm still in consultation with the Almighty.
		But I can give you the mechanics.
		If, sir, may I solve one problem?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, wait a minute.
		Let me understand.
		I have listeners.
		Anyway, I want to understand.
		You're saying you're in contact with God.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And you can't be true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And God is...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		God is explaining all of this to you personally.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, then I have a couple of questions for you.
unidentified		Certainly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What are shadow people?
unidentified		Well, shadow people are a condition of a lack of spiritual spirit, meaning what you actually do.
unidentified		What God prescribes that you do for him, like feeding people, giving clothes to the nude, to the people who need to be able to give food, people who need water.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, being a very giving person, right?
unidentified		Specifically, the charities that are outlined by Jesus in the New Testament.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does he actually outline them?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, like the red flags.
unidentified		He does.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		Yes, he does.
unidentified		He says, for these things that you do for the least of my brethren, meaning sisters too, you do for him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so then obviously the man is suggesting, the prophet, excuse me, is suggesting that those who do not clothe the nude and the rest of it are bound here on earth as mere shadows of what they were lurking near the place of their death.
		Sheesh.
		You better get out there and start doing some good stuff, folks.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Art?
		Yes.
		I'm Paul in District Heights, Maryland, 5.70 a.m.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, glad to have you.
unidentified		And thanks.
unidentified		The lady who was on the other night, was her name, Linda Leader?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Nancy Leeder.
unidentified		Nancy Leader.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was Nancy Leeder.
		She talked about Planet X. That's correct, yes.
		We're going to do a show on that Friday, I think.
		At least partially.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can't remember.
unidentified		How did she get her information about Planet X?
unidentified		From aliens?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly what she says, yes.
unidentified		I heard her say the Zetans.
unidentified		Zetans.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Zeta Reticula.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The aliens from that planet system.
unidentified		Like, physically or channeled?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Physically.
unidentified		I see.
unidentified		Well, she matches up with Mark Hazelwood.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, he is.
unidentified		But she is a little bit nutty in the sense that she was almost gleeful that all this destruction is coming.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not sure that I'd use the word gleeful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would say zest-filled presentation.
unidentified		Art, is your book, The Source?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Could you...
		Sometimes it would be great to have people talk about your books who have read your books.
		The whole concept of The Source is that there is one, or the source's conclusion, is that there is one single thing that would actually and will eventually account for all things that are paranormal.
		One source of all of this.
		And we're just seeing many variations of the same thing.
		I think that may be absolutely true.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, hi.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Yeah, I live in Redding.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Reading, California?
unidentified		California?
		Okay.
		And I was just curious, what is this I hear about the Redding Ripple?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Redding Ripple.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's do it the other way around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What have you heard about the Redding Ripple?
unidentified		Oh, nothing much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but obviously something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you wouldn't have even heard the phrase unless you knew something about the Redding Ripple.
unidentified		I heard it was like a fault or something.
		I don't know.
		A fault?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There are some who believe it's a geomagnetic anomalous location where, well, all kinds of things occur.
		I mean, it's...
		But it's there.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thanks.
		You're very welcome.
		You see, the truth is there is absolutely no such thing as a Redding Ripple.
		I used to have this gal, I called her Tin, and she called the show, and I haven't heard from Tin in a long time.
		And she'd call from Reading, you know, as often as she could get through, and she was a real kick.
		And so I started telling her as a joke about this place called the Reading Ripple.
		My God, you don't know about the Reading Ripple?
		Well, now you can see how these things get started.
		There is a belief system in this country now, and little whispers and emails that go back and forth about the Reading Ripple.
		The Reading Ripple was ripped from my mind in one second of conversation with this girl.
		That's where the Reading Ripple came from.
		But by the time I'm well gone, I'm sure the Reading Ripple stories will include fire-breathing dragons, dead bodies, and God knows what else back in these times.
		A first-time caller line, you're on the air if you turn your radio off.
		Hello there.
		Hello there.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hey, how are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm okay, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How are you?
unidentified		Oh, pretty good.
unidentified		I just wanted to give a quick shout-out to your channels on FNET.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, to whom I, what?
unidentified		Your channels on FNet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, FNET.
unidentified		Channel that, you know, for your program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, where people go and gather and rip each other's skin off, right?
unidentified		That's correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		These internet chat places, they are brutal.
		Absolutely brutal.
		People are not good to each other, sir.
unidentified		Well, actually, I understand that.
		The main reason I called is I know earlier you were talking about other planets that were found.
		Yes.
		And CNN just said that there was one found that exactly resembles ours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, now be a little careful here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I read the story a little while ago.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what CNN is saying and reporting on is that they have found a system similar to ours with a high likelihood.
		It's a sun like ours.
		They found a larger planet.
		And if there's a planet about our size, about that far from the sun, then we could begin to imagine that would be called an Earth-like planet where things like life could spring up.
		Things like, well, who knows what might spring up given water and air and volcanic conditions and atmosphere and all just the right soup and you never know.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay?
unidentified		Thanks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		So I'm glad you noted that story, yeah.
		Earth-like planets.
		Now, in last night's discussion, it was clearly suggested by my guest that if there is any life anywhere else, any other planets, that it came from here.
		And it did so in the last 6,000 years.
		And if there is microbial life found on Mars, it will have been from here, from something crashing into Earth, causing a rock to go to Mars to start life because life could only come from here because God only put it here.
unidentified		Nowhere else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All that wasted space out there.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Jerry from Cincinnati, Ohio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Jerry.
unidentified		How's it going?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's going.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's good.
unidentified		That's wonderful to hear you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		I wanted to ask about, you know, the Dr. Carl Edwards were on there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Last night?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Dr. Ball.
unidentified		Ball.
unidentified		How do you spell his last name?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		B-A-U-G-H?
		B-A-U-G-H?
		Right.
unidentified		Okay, because he had a book out, too, I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He has several.
unidentified		Oh, several?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Okay, I can get them probably in the library then, can't I?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
unidentified		Okay, you know, I was going to ask, and I couldn't get through.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And maybe if you had anyone again...
		I kind of have an idea of the way he thinks.
		What would you ask?
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		You know, in Genesis says, God said, let us make man in our own image.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		But then in the next verse, he said, let us know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't think it was plural.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, wasn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, there's only one God.
unidentified		That's what I think.
unidentified		You know what I'm saying?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, why would he have said it that other way?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know.
		It's a good point.
		I don't think it says it.
		Does it really say it that way?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He says, in our image, that word.
unidentified		And then it turns out it says he decided to make God in my own image.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In my own image.
		That's a little different.
		All right.
		Thank you very much.
		So, sure.
		That's right.
		Maybe we resemble the way God thinks of himself.
		Now, you don't think of God with a physical body, right?
		But maybe when he thought of himself with a physical body, he thought, hmm, didn't he create this?
		Western of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, turn your radio off and proceed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Boise, Idaho.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you're obviously on a cell phone, probably even in a truck.
unidentified		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wild stab there.
unidentified		Let's see on KFI AM640.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, what a monster.
unidentified		Yes, it is.
		I was calling about the other night.
		You were talking about our last night about the guy in Hagerman, Idaho with the cow mutilations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Cattle mutilations, sir.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes.
unidentified		And about that time, I drive from between Boise and Pocatello, Idaho every night in about that month, that time frame, I saw some, there were like lights, not lights, there were light beams up in the sky, like, you know, about where the planes would fly, and they went straight up, and there was four of them, and they stood out like a sore thrum, and it was the damnedest thing ever seen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me tell you something.
		I'll tell you something.
		That whole area out there, Utah, Oregon, Idaho, it's going berserk right now.
		I talked to, I'll tell you, I talked to two major researchers today, Linda Moulton Howe and Kulam Kalaharat Nids.
		I talked to both of them today, and I'm waiting to hear from this farmer.
		I really want to hear from this farmer.
		If this farmer would be so kind as to contact me, I'm not going to turn over his email address until I have his permission to do so.
		You know, he indicated he doesn't want a big deal for his family.
		The guy runs a farm.
		You know, he doesn't want a circus, and you can't blame him.
		But both of these entities, Linda Moltenhow and the NIS in Las Vegas, contacted me.
		So if this farmer would be so kind as to please, it was a very wild encounter, no question.
		If you would please be kind enough to contact me by email with your phone number, I will chat with you first.
		And if you want to come on the air, fine.
		If you don't, fine.
		If you want to talk to an investigator, just say the word, and I can pass your info along.
		I just didn't want to do it without your permission, seeing how you sort of feel as though you would like to maintain your privacy and not risk a circus.
		And believe me, believe me, I understand that.
		That's going to be true of most people reporting this kind of thing.
		I mean, put yourself in their position.
		They're a farmer.
		They have work to do out in the field every day.
		Do they need reporters and tourists trampling their fields and trying to get stories?
		They sure don't.
		They don't care about that kind of stuff.
		They care about plowing fields, getting crop yields, and lots of things that we don't think about.
		That's what they care about.
		So a lot of times these sources don't want to come forward.
		And honestly, you can't blame them.
		So the offer's out there on the table.
		Want to contact me?
		I've got people who want to talk to you, sir, including me.
		On the air, off the air, I'll just simply put you in contact with the investigative agencies that won't cause you any trouble.
		That would be Linda or Nids or both.
		And We'll see what we can find out for you.
		Pretty strange story, though.
		All right, we're going to break, and then we've got a guest coming up at the top of the hour.
		Martell, and from the high desert, this is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		No damn well he hasn't cheated.
		Have you lived?
		Am I better to live my life alone?
		This is the madhouse, the fear of my people.
		My weakness can't move, I'm a moon and star.
		Where am I to go now that I've gone too far?
		Am I better to live my life alone?
		The fear of my people.
		My weakness can't move, I'm a moon and star.
		Where am I to go now that I've gone too far?
		You were young to go when the bullet hits the bone.
		So you were young to go when the bullet hits the bone.
		To reach out below in the Kingdom of Nye.
		From west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
		Or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
		To reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would be me.
		Good morning, everybody.
		This is going to be very interesting.
		Coming up, Hank Wesselman, Ph.D., anthropologist.
		He lived among the Yoruba peoples of Nigeria for two years.
		As a Peace Corps volunteer in the 1960s, when he came back, he did his doctoral work at UC Berkeley, studying paleontology, geology, and archaeology, as well as anthropology.
		And for the last 30 years, he has conducted field research with an international group of scientists investigating the mystery of human origins.
		Where we came from, frequent topic here, right?
		Out in East Africa's Great Rift Valley.
		This has allowed him to spend much of his life with traditional indigenous peoples in remote areas seldom, if ever, visited by outsiders.
		Can you imagine doing that going into an area where they've never seen anybody from any place else?
		That would be something.
		In the early 1970s, while doing field work in southern Ethiopia, he began to experience spontaneous, extraordinary, expanded states of awareness similar to those of traditional shamans.
		In an attempt to understand, he went beyond scholarly research into direct personal contact with the ancient methods practiced by tribal people for achieving altered states of consciousness, which probably means he did weird plants.
		His investigations into the shamanic world, based on his own direct experiences, have been recorded in his book, Spirit Walker, Messages from the Future, 1995, Medicine Maker, Mystic Encounters on the Shaman's Path, and Vision Seeker, Shared Wisdom from the Place of Refuge.
		Dr. Hank, I guess he likes to be called, has also taught anthropology at the University of California at San Diego, the University of Hawaii at Hilo, and currently offers classes in American River College and Sierra College in Northern California.
		This should be an interesting contrast to last night's program.
unidentified		Sounds of fire
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Here is Hank Wesselman.
		Hank, Doctor, welcome back.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Good evening, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We did do another program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long ago was that?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was on January the 15th, as I recall.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		January 15th.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I did one with Barbara, I think, back on November the 1st.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Pleasure to be on once again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good to have you.
		Let me try something out on you first, and I want to just a brutally honest answer.
		With your background, if you were to encounter somebody who was very literate and very literal and believed absolutely and in fact would lay down scientific evidence to support his claims that everything we are,
		the sun, the moon, the stars, the planets around them, everything we can see out to 15 billion years, whatever the latest figure is today, everything, including human beings, were created 6,000 years ago.
		Not billions, but 6,000.
		How would that strike you?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		I'm with you.
		Well, let me tell you a fun story.
		In the summer of 2000, I was in Addis Ababa in Ethiopia doing research.
		And when I got on the plane to come home, I ended up sitting next to a creationist Christian missionary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so he believed roughly that?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		He believed roughly that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Must have been a mistake.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		We hadn't really fastened our seat belts before he began to lay his trip on me.
		Big mistake.
		Well, you know, by the time I was done with him, he was...
		It was from Addis Abba to Newark, New Jersey.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, man.
		Oh, my.
		My God, you could convert a man in a flight like that.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		18 hours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		18 hours, yeah.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		18 hours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You just don't let him sleep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you keep hit with scientific facts.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was an interesting experience.
		You know, one of the first things I did is I got into my knapsack and I hauled out this big chunk of fossil wood and put it in his hands.
		And I said, now, this is a piece of a tree that was around about five and a half million years ago.
		What do you think of this?
		And it's very difficult, you know, when you put the evidence right in somebody's hand for them to say that it doesn't exist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, let me be him for a second, all right?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll be him.
		Well, you say it's how many million years ago?
		A million years ago.
		Okay, well, you say that, but you know, how the hell do you really know?
		I mean, what is it?
		You're carbon dating?
		We don't trust Carbon dating.
		Carbon dating is really wrong.
		That's how I'd come back at you.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Really?
		Well, I actually explained to him the five points of potassium argon dating.
		And this is a very interesting way of dating fossil rocks where you have these fossils which are interred between volcanic layers of sediment, ashes that have been belched out of a volcano sometime in the remote past.
		And when these volcanic ashes are projected out of a volcano, they contain a radioactive isotope of potassium called potassium-40.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which decays at a predictable rate into argon.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Now, argon is a gas, and so it gets trapped inside the crystals of the lava or the feldspars or the glass, the volcanic glass, so the argon can't escape.
		So what you can do is you can bring back these rock samples to the United States or to Europe, and you can subject them to an unnatural act in a laboratory, if you're with me.
		And you can release the argon gas in a vacuum tube, which has been sterilized, so to speak, without having any atmospheric argon in it.
		And you can convert the amount of argon gas that is released into a statistical measure of time that tells you exactly when that lava flow or those feldspars or that pumice was belched out of a volcano in the past.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what if I say to you, well, suppose the argon gas got there in some manner other than what you have described?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you saying that's impossible?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, what you do is you put the rocks in a tube, and then you vacuumize it, so to speak.
		You suck all the atmosphere out of the tube, and then you burn off any atmospheric argon with a laser, and then you finally vaporize the crystal with the laser itself, releasing the gas.
		And this way you prevent contamination.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think I understand the process, but what I'm asking, again, directly is...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, what I'm asking is how do you know that the argon gas didn't get in that rock through some process other than that which you're describing?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Because what you're doing is you're vaporizing the crystal and you're releasing the gas which is inside the crystal itself, not on the outside.
		It's a way of preventing contamination.
		It's a very exact science now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But what I don't understand is how you could be sure that Is that possible?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, what you do is you step heat the crystal so you burn off any contaminating argon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I'm saying the original argon got in the rock through some other process.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, it wouldn't, because it's a particular isotope of argon, argon-40, which stems from potassium-40-40, which is breaking down through time.
		And so this is the way in which a lot of rocks are dated.
		Of course, there are other methods as well.
		We have thermoluminescence now and fission track dating.
		It's become a very exact science.
		And in fact, the Spotoxium argon dating method used to be useful only up to, you know, it really began about half a million years ago, so anything less than half a million years old was very difficult to date with it.
		Since that time, folks at the Berkeley Geochronology Center have developed a very, very, I guess you could say it's almost like magic, it's almost like alchemy, in which they can actually date rocks that came out of Vesuvius, which are only about 2,000 years old, using this method.
		So this is the way in which we actually find out how old fossils actually are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so what did the guy on the airplane say to you?
		I mean, he got progressively.
		Hold on, sorry, holding that in his hand.
		What did he say?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, he got progressively agitated.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		And once I began to describe the kind of work I've been doing for the last 30 years or so and the kind of fossils I've been working with and the kinds of humans we're actually finding in this range of time between four and five million years ago, he actually became very disturbed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		You know, I don't want to sound aggressive, but after about an hour and a half, two hours of my talking to him, he got so upset he went back to the bathroom and he spent a good deal of the flight in the bathroom.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Taking a lot of free reading time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I should be laughing at that.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		I felt badly afterwards because he was emotionally very upset.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		I mean, he kind of took his belief system apart.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, that's a very serious affair, ripping apart somebody's belief system.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Very much just sort of happens.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		You know, if he hadn't sat down and laid his number on me before he even got off the table.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And he wouldn't have responded.
		I understand.
		It was only defense, self-defense.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you can...
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		We have found a very early kind of human.
		In 94-95, a professor at Berkeley named Tim White, somebody I've known for the best part of 25 years, he invited me to go into the field with his expedition in northeastern Ethiopia, in the middle Awash region, where he had a series of deposits which at that time were known to date to around 4.5 to 5 million years old.
		We're now back to almost 6.
		And this was a very interesting site in the sense that it preserved the fossilized remains of creatures like baboons and colobus monkeys and carnivores and herbivores.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You did to say back 6 million years?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gee, that would be about, let's say, one day to equal $1 million.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One day to equal 1 million years for God.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		I guess you could say that.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		I guess it all goes back to around a billion and a half now in terms of the life record.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I just noted that you were near that six million year mark.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, the reason it's interesting is that the biomolecular type people have revealed that in studying human DNA and comparing it to the DNA of chimpanzees, the DNA of monkeys, the DNA of guinea pigs, of zebras and giraffes and so forth and so on, they revealed about 30 years ago that human beings and the African apes are very, very closely related.
		In fact, we share about 98.5% of our DNA.
		And in studying things like hemoglobin and so forth and so on, it was possible to determine that humans and apes must have shared a common ancestor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, here's the question.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Maybe as recently as 6 million years ago, maybe as old as 8 million years ago.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		It's in this magic time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, here's a question for you then.
		When I hear people say the kinds of things you're saying right now, usually we end up comparing the way apes act and think and are able to, you know, they can do sign language and stuff.
		It's really amazing what they can do.
		But we compare them to humans.
		I wonder, with all that shared genetic material, what do humans do that's really, really ape-like?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, we do a lot of things that are ape-like.
		Do we?
		We do.
		You know, in the classes that I teach in anthropology, I often show Jane Goodall's videos, and most of us have seen them at one time or another.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		And it's quite shocking to my students, you know, when they start seeing these chimpanzees who are doing things like us, and they suddenly realize that they're not doing things like us, we do things like them.
		And that a lot of our human behavior, which we think of as uniquely human, is actually ape behavior, especially the gestural stuff.
		Like when a big fight will break out between the chimpanzee males, and you'll see a mother comforting her child by holding it and patting it, and then after the fight is over, you know, the chimpanzees embrace each other, they kiss each other to try to reassure each other that now, you know, the violence has stopped, you know, everything's cool.
		And all of these reassurance gestures, we think of them as being uniquely human, but in fact, they're actually ape gestures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then, if all of that really is true, what right do we have to experiment on?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		That's a good question.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		And, of course, it's one of the foremost questions involved with ethics in the science that I'm working in right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But, I mean, they are like the closest thing to humans, so they're the biggest target for really serious experimentation, right?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
		I mean, it's one of the reasons we missed thalidomide years ago.
		You know, if you use thalidomide on rats, it doesn't do anything to them.
		But if you use it on monkeys, they're born without arms.
		Nobody thought to use it on monkeys.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And nobody ever did that.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		No.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Not until it was too late.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's the argument for using them, isn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or is it?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a big problem.
		You know, there's a large population of chimpanzees upon whom a lot of experimentation has been done, and a lot of them were deliberately infected with AIDS to see if we could figure out how to cure AIDS.
		And now we've got this population of chimpanzees infected with AIDS, and what are we going to do with them?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What are we doing?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's an ethical dilemma.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		It's an ethical dilemma.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Out of curiosity, do you know how many we have infected with AIDS?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, gosh, you know, I don't really know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Even a guess?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		One of those sad stories where you don't like to go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		10, 100, 1,000?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		1,000?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I wouldn't say 1,000, but I would say it's probably, you know, somewhere less than 100.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		You know, chimpanzees are not all that available for scientific research because they're very, very expensive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Less than 100, but that's still a lot that we've done, isn't it?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, one of the interesting things about this early kind of human see that we're finding in this range of time, around 4.5 to 6 million years ago, is it looks like a hybrid or a cross between chimpanzees and humans.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		In other words, this thing may very well be the famous missing link that Charles Darwin predicted we would eventually find.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		The link between humans and apes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		In fact, later this year, probably, maybe late 2002, early 2003, there will most likely be a major suite of papers published in either Science or Nature, the two major scientific publications, describing about 50% of a skeleton which was found while I was in the field in 1994-95.
		And this is one of the major, major, major discoveries of the century.
		This skeleton is about a million and a half years older than Lucy.
		And it really looks like something which is half ape, half human in many ways.
		Now, I can't say too much more about it than that at this point, because it hasn't been published yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are we ever going...
		I appreciate the heads up.
		But do you think we'll ever be able to scientifically nail down the entire transition from ape to man?
		Will we ever get there?
		Is there enough evidence in the ground or enough anthropologists to go find it or archaeologists to dig it out?
		Will we ever prove it?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		I think we will.
		I think we will.
		And I think this particular fossil creature, which is called Artopithecus, it's not called Australopithecus, it's the ancestor of Australopithecus.
		This is Artopithecus ramidus.
		This thing is pretty damn close to what we would think of as being the missing link.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much time, Professor, does the missing link have to account for?
		How much time are we talking about when we talk about the missing link?
		How many years are missing?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, what we're really talking about is the link between apes and humans.
		What we're looking for is a transitional form which still exhibits those primitive characteristics of apeness while showing those physical features that reveal that it's moving towards something which is human-like.
		And that seems to be what we've found.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how many years do you think?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, this fossil creature seems to have lived between about 6 million years ago and about 4.5 to 4 million years ago when we get a more advanced form appearing, a form which Miv Leakey, Richard Leakey's wife, has found actually in Kenya, somewhat to the south of where we are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		It looks like the descendant of Artopithecus, although not everybody would agree with that.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		You know, there's, you know, ten of my, if we were to get 10 of my colleagues and get them together in a room and ask them all the same question, we would probably get at least 11 different answers, 11 different opinions, based on the same scientific evidence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, listen, hold on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I'm sure that's absolutely true, and that's why, well, that's why, guess like last night, their opinion fits in there with one of those.
unidentified		I can't say another part of your failure, I'm sad.
		You say your love is mortified, but that don't coincide.
		Well, the things that you do, and when I ask you to the night, you say you've got to be cruel to be kind.
		In the right measure, cruel to be kind.
		I remember, don't worry, how could I?
		I forget the first time the last time we ever saw you believe we heard of the show with the pains and gross?
		So forget you believe in the kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, everybody, they're rocking and rolling in Tokyo.
		A strong earthquake jolted Japan's capital Friday.
		There were no reports of serious damage, but one man was injured by a falling chandelier.
		The quake with a preliminary magnitude of 5.2 was strong enough to sway tall buildings in Tokyo and caused a temporary halt to express train service in Tokyo.
		That would have been something.
		So all the people over there for World Cup got a little taste of the ring of fire.
		Okay, we will continue, that quake just occurring, we will continue with our guest, Dr. Hank Wesselman, in just a moment.
		Stay right there.
		You know, if I heard a sound like that in the middle of the night, I'd probably grab a gun.
		Back to our guest, Professor Wesselman.
		This is a question or more, I guess, a statement from Bill in Illinois who says, of you, another godless scientist who can only guess at evolution, but at the same time states these myths as fact.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Hey, it sounds pretty strong, doesn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I thought so.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, I'm with you.
		The science is pretty hard, and, you know, it does appear that's the way it was.
		It really does appear that way.
		I don't see how it can be denied.
		You know, but I mean, you can't tamper with faith there, on the other hand.
		Well, you can, I guess, if you have an 18-hour plane flight.
		All right, look, we came here to talk about other things anyway.
		And so I have a series of questions.
		One about transformational community.
		What's a transformational community, and what is that?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, there's something very interesting going on in Western society.
		There's a general awakening.
		You could call it a spiritual awakening, which is happening among a very disparate group of people.
		These are people who are found in every walk of life, in every community.
		This is sort of a...
		There's a book published by Paul Ray and Sherry Anderson, which has been called The Cultural Creatives.
		I don't know if you've ever had Paul and Sherry on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I have not.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		It's a very interesting book, and it reveals the size of this transformational community.
		They're sometimes called the modern mystical movement, the cultural creatives, the transformational community, because we're essentially bridging between what was into what's coming into being now.
		If Ray and Anderson have their demographics right, and there's no reason to suppose they wouldn't, because this study was based on 14 years of sociological survey, there are about 50 million people in the United States alone and about 80 to 90 million people in Europe who fall into this category.
		These are people, for example, who believe in the existence of alternate realities.
		And I know that a lot of your guests like to talk about these alternate realities.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		These are folks that believe in the existence of spirits.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		The spirit helpers and spirit teachers, which are so familiar to traditional indigenous people.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		And interestingly, Jesus of Nazareth is seen as an important spiritual teacher whether or not the individual is psychologically Christian.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		These are folks who believe that it's possible for people to learn how to go into these alternate realities, whether through hallucinogenic plants or through physiological and psychological techniques, which were pioneered essentially by indigenous people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like the sweatlodge.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		These are folks that believe in the existence of an underlying field of power that connects everything everywhere.
		You know, I think this was really the great success of the Star Wars films 20 years ago.
		You know, all of us out there really understood that the force is real.
		And that would be a good way to describe this underlying field of power.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The force is real, Professor.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
		It was actually a concept that was, it may have formed the threshold for all religious awareness.
		This was proposed almost 100 years ago by an anthropologist named Moret.
		He called this belief animatism, the belief in an impersonal supernatural power or force.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I actually believe this force that you and I are talking about right now is stronger than nuclear power.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is the strongest force in the universe.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
		It is.
		And, you know, belief in the existence of this power is one of the signatures of the consciousness age in which we're living right now.
		The difference between us and Indigenous people is that we believe in the existence of this power, whereas for an Indigenous tribal person, it's a known.
		It's a known experience because they know how to connect with it, how to manipulate it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, you've gone into areas, Professor, where others have not been before.
		I mean, you have met people who have not met other people, certainly not like yourself.
		You know, first contact kind of stuff.
		And, you know, what I would really like to understand a little bit of what that's like to have first contact with people who have never had contact with the outside world.
		What things do you find?
		I mean, do you find civilized behavior?
		Do you find organized behavior?
		Do you find monogamy?
		Do you find religion?
		Do you find...
		When you walk into a village, a remote village, how do you start out?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, this is very interesting.
		You know, I grew up in New York City.
		And when I went into the Peace Corps in 1964, I went in because when I got out of college, I went to the University of Colorado at Boulder as an undergraduate.
		When I got out of college, I didn't know what I was going to do with my life.
		But going to Southeast Asia and shooting people was not high on my list of priorities.
		So I went into alternative service into the Peace Corps.
		I was in a training program at UCLA where they tried to prepare us for this experience.
		They gave us a lot of anthropology, a lot of cross-cultural stuff.
		They trained us in several different languages.
		Nigeria is a very diverse country, tribally.
		There are over 200 languages spoken in that country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, brother.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		So I was trained in the Hausu language and in the Yoruba language.
		And, you know, three months later, I found myself on a Pan Am flight puddle jumping across Africa.
		And when we arrived in Lagos, which was the capital of Nigeria, it was night.
		And I remember the plane sort of pulling into the airport, and the doors hissed open.
		And this strange smell came into the plane.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		It was the smell of the rainforest.
		And it has a very peculiar odor because of the decomposition that occurs on the rainforest floor.
		And I remember thinking, as I smelled this completely alien smell and I watched the windows fogging up with humidity, I remember thinking to myself, Hank, what have you done?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, Hank, I, on the other hand, landed in Southeast Asia and not shooting, thank you.
		I was a medic in the Air Force.
		But when you get off the airplane there, Hank, it's the same thing.
		Exactly the same thing.
		And it takes, as I recall, it took a few weeks to get used to it, and then you don't smell it anymore.
		Yeah, it's true.
		And that works for almost, it works for many destinations around the world.
		You get off the plane and the entire, the whole atmosphere, it's totally different.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		And so I'm with you.
		I've done it.
		It's really interesting.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		the Yorubas, now the Yorubas live in western Nigeria, and these people have had contact with outsiders since the missionary has arrived.
		So it wasn't so much that I met people there who had never met outsiders before.
		Children, yes.
		I mean, I had these wonderful experiences where I'd be in a market, and here would be these market women, and they'd spot me.
		And they had a word in Yoruba for white people.
		The word was oimbo.
		Oibo means peeled.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Peeled?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Peeled.
		You know, if you take an onion and you peel it, it's white inside.
		If you take a pig and you peel it, it's white inside because of the fat.
		So we were simply peeled Africans.
		That's what they called us, the peeled people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can see how they would form that view.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, I would have these market women who would be laughing, and they would drag this absolutely terrified child up to us, and they would have told this child that we were spirits, and these children would be looking at me with their eyes, you know, about six feet around, and there'd be this absolute just paroxysms of fear, and this woman laughing would sort of thrust this child into my arms, and this child would drank and go rigid.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Rigid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, nice mom.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Nice mom.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, nice mom.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		The Yorubas art were very interesting because it's from those people that all the New World spiritist traditions like voodoo and candumble and macumba and umbanda and santoria, they all come from Nigeria.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, short of Santaria and Voodoo, you've lost me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know about the others.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		They're found in Brazil.
		They're found in Brazil, Umbanda, Candumble, Macumba.
		They're very, very fast-growing religions in which each African orisha, each African spirit, has a Catholic saint equivalent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		So when you're going to church and you're praying to the Virgin Mary, you're also praying to Yemenja, the goddess of the ocean.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, when you're praying to God in heaven, you're also praying to Obatala, the sky god.
		It's a very interesting phenomenon.
		You know, the Christian saint, Saint Cyprian, the healing saint.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, he's syncretized with Omulu, Omulu, the God of smallpox and contagious diseases.
		Yeah.
		And so this was a very interesting place to find myself.
		Now, at that time, I didn't know anything about this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How did this happen?
		I mean, is it that, you know, Rice Christians came in and inculcated at some past time, or did the best they could to inculcate what they could into these Nigerians, but it didn't quite take, and somehow they made the conversions which turned into the religion?
		Is that what happened?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		No, they actually did a great job.
		And everyone in my town, the town that I lived in for the most of the time I was there was about 80,000 people.
		Virtually everybody was either Christian or Muslim in that town.
		But when it came time for the planting or the harvest, everybody, Christians and Muslims alike, would go down to the sacred grove.
		And that's when they'd get out the sacred wood carvings and the masks.
		And they would invite the ancient spirits of the land to come and reside in those images so they could dance them, so they could sacrifice to them.
		Because everybody knew what would happen if you insulted the ancient spirits of the land.
		You know, your harvest would be nothing.
		Your children would die of starvation.
		And so everybody, Christian and Muslim alike, were animists underneath that Christian or Muslim veneer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Isn't that interesting?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so how did the mixture occur?
		I mean, you gave me these equivalents.
		How did that come to pass?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, that came to pass in the New World with the slave trade.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		The slaves brought their religion from West Africa.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		And when the Catholics did their job on them in Brazil or Haiti, they simply merged these Christian saints with their African spirits.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Isn't that interesting?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
		It is, indeed.
		And what's really interesting about it is that these spirits are real.
		Once you've had direct experience with them, you know this with absolute certainty.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think spirits are real, period, would be another way to put it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so their spirits would be as real as our spirits, huh?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think so.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		The difficulty for us as Westerners is that we don't grow up in a culture in which spirits are part of our experienced reality on a day-to-day basis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, we call it near-death experiences, right?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, but I'm talking about, you know, that training that we get in childhood.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Oh, that's true.
		That's true.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		You know, it's like your creationist, who you had on last night.
		You know, that's a worldview that he was talking about that came into being about 3,000 years ago in the Middle East.
		And it came into being among people who had a very, very small sense of geographic identity.
		I mean, you know, when you think about the Judean people, they were very much like goatherders or Bedouins in the desert.
		And they probably didn't travel more than about 100 miles in any one direction their entire lives.
		So for them, living in the desert, you know, the Garden of Eden with water and trees and plants, this was, you know, the ideal state, you know.
		And this myth of Genesis was their way of trying to explain the great mystery of existence in ways which was meaningful to them culturally, but which they really couldn't nail down scientifically.
		See, that worldview really doesn't serve us so well anymore.
		It's come under fire.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's why I made a little joke about one of God's days and six million of our years.
		You know, it still might all work together.
		I'm not sure.
		I don't deny a creative force there somewhere.
		I just, you know, I think it could be hand in hand with the process of evolution.
		I mean, God's hand could have said, all right, lightning bolt right there.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right?
		And so I don't deny the absolute possibility of creation at all.
		I rather lean toward it, actually, but in hand with evolution.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, the Polynesians have a very interesting way of looking at this.
		You know, you're talking to the anthropologist now.
		The Polynesians have a word, a sacred word, which is spelled I-A-O.
		Iow.
		This is the sacred name.
		And each one of those syllables has a meaning.
		The syllable e, the I, at the beginning, that's really symbolic of the creation.
		There was a creative act, and it only happened once.
		And then ah, the letter A, that symbolizes or stands for the subdivision of the primordial stuff, the primordial stuff out of which everything is made, into the manifested world of time and space, matter and energy, awareness, consciousness, each of the other.
		And the letter O, when the O function of the sacred name began to operate, it allowed humanity to create reality using divine power.
		It's a very interesting way of looking at this.
		Unfortunately, we live in a time in which human beings really seek power largely through the material world.
		They've tended to neglect the spiritual dimension which is all around us all the time.
		And they've fallen away from what the Polynesians would call the balanced teachings of the guardians.
		Now, in a mythic sense, the Polynesians believed that humanity originally came from across the universe and out of another dimension.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		And that we came as seeds of light, seeds of light as individuals.
		But we were accompanied by great spiritual guardians who knew the purpose of our destiny and our life path.
		It's a very interesting myth.
		And they believe that these seeds of light came to this star and specifically to this water planet, and that we descended and took up residence in primitive life forms in which we then evolved and changed through time to become who and what we are today.
		The Polynesians also believe that these guardians from other star systems, some of them embodied as well, so that they would be here when we were ready to learn the meaning of our fate and our existence and our destiny.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you personally rule that out as one possibility?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, now this is interesting to me because one of the things we talked about when I was on with you last January is I have developed a wonderful friendship in Hawaii with a Hawaiian elder and his wife.
		And when my wife and I go out to Hawaii to do workshops and presentations, very often we'll spend a day or two with these folks talking about just the sorts of things that you and I are talking about.
		So I looked at the elder when we were discussing this one day, and I said to him, when did we come here to this planet?
		And he didn't hesitate.
		He said, 18.5 million years ago.
		Now, immediately the anthropologist kicks on, the paleontologist, and I think 18.5 million.
		That's early Miocene.
		Who was around in the early Miocene?
		Well, in fact, a very primitive kind of ape called the Dryopithecines were on the scene in Africa at that time.
		They didn't look like apes look like today.
		They looked more like monkeys, but they didn't have tails.
		And they had a very distinctive dentition, which is distinctively ape rather than monkey.
		So I thought to myself, gee, that's kind of neat.
		You know, here you've got these primitive apes, and you've got the descent of these seeds of light taking up residence in these primitive apes.
		And eventually, of course, these apes evolved into the apes we have today, as well as all sorts of other Miocene apes.
		And one of those lineages became human about six and a half million years ago, maybe seven million years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the seeds of light, you know, metaphorically, it's not a whole lot different than the obelisk, eh?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's true.
		It's true.
		What I was curious about is these guardians, because they said that the guardians embodied as well.
		Now, if you look at the early Miocene, this is the time when the first modern whales appear.
		Now, whales and primates actually go back to the Eocene, which is about 50 million years ago.
		But here we have the first modern whales appearing in the early Miocene.
		And when you think about it, the whales and the dolphins are the only creatures on this planet that have brains as big or larger than our own.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dolphin brains are bigger, aren't they?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		They are.
		Nobody knows what they do with these huge brains.
		But in Polynesia, the whales are known as the record keepers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Might be the answer.
		The answer might be not what we do.
		Professor, hold on.
		We're at the top of the hour.
		And we are talking about time, aren't we?
		Time, time, time.
		6,000 years ago, 6 million years ago, 18 million years ago.
		I don't know.
unidentified		Time, time, time to see what's to come of me.
		While I looked around, all my possibilities, I was so...
		Some building morning with a break of your gate and maybe drinking life.
		How she made it in Some velvet morning when I was trained Flowers growing on our hill Dragonflies and die for dears Learn from us
		very much Look at us but do not touch Pedro is my name Yeah.
		To rechart bell in the Kingdom of Nye, from west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		Or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Some guy sent me an email the other day that said that he went out just because of the fact that I played this on the show, and he saw a horse named Phaedra in a race, and like it came in at 30 to 1.
		Something like that.
		He won all kinds of money, and he wrote me this wonderful email thanking me.
		You're very welcome, sir.
		Well, all right, Dr. Wilson, welcome back.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you're very welcome.
		All right.
		What is an evolutionary sleeper?
		That's something you've got in here, and that's, you know, right off on this evolution thing.
		An evolutionary sleeper.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, this all ties in with these strange books that I've written, Art.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Back in the 1970s, when I was out there in Ethiopia in the desert, 1972 to be exact, I began to have these spontaneous altered state experiences, which were classic out-of-the-body experiences, but I had no idea what those things were in those days.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why were you having those?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were you spontaneously having these, or were you ingesting local indigenous growing things recommended by the peoples you were staying with?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Now, this may sound really square, but believe it or not, I have never taken the big hallucinogens or the plant teachers, unlike my colleague Terrence McKenna, who is an old friend of yours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The late Terrence.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		This deals with this evolutionary sleeper stuff.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		If I've got this right, and I believe I do, there are large numbers of us in society at large who have some kind of program on our inner hard drive, our inner hard drive being our DNA, our genetic code.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		And each of us may, in fact, be some kind of holon containing within ourselves an extraordinary biological energetic program that can reveal who and what we may all become as this human species we belong to continues its ascent toward the culmination of our evolution.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		An ascent, you said, right?
		Yeah.
		Some people look at society today and see a de-evolutionary process going on, and you could make that case.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		The way in which this began for me is I began to have these out-of-the-body experiences in which I would find myself bumping along the rich pole of my tent at night, and I would suddenly find myself on the ceiling of my tent, and I turn around and look down, and there would be my body asleep on the floor of the tent.
		Now, to say I was disturbed would be an understatement of vast proportions.
		I was really freaked, and I would find myself zipping back into my physical body.
		This is not unlike what Robert Monroe wrote about in his book, Journeys Out of the Body.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, out of the body.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Now, one night, I went through the tent wall, and I found myself floating over the camp.
		I could see all the tents.
		I could see the soldiers patrolling at the fire pit.
		I could see jackals digging up our garbage in the garbage pit, and so forth and so on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about your diet, Doctor?
		You didn't intentionally ingest anything indigenous and hallucinogenic, but what about your diet?
		I mean, you had to be eating the local chow, right?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Good question.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		You know, we brought all of our chow in from Nairobi, which was 600 miles to the south.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		So we had a lot of canned food.
		Now, I don't know if you like canned food.
		I'm not wild about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		You know, like, corned beef doesn't really yank my chain.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		In fact, I had curried corned beef, roast corned beef, corned beef hash, corned beef sandwiches, blade corned beef.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's okay once or twice, you know, every now and then.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		So what would happen is I'd get very tired of the food we were eating, and I'd begin to specialize in things like rice and beans, something that's very, very simple.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		And I would lose about 20 pounds when I'd go into the field for two or three months.
		So this may have had something to do with it.
		It also could be the monotonous monochromatic landscapes.
		It could have been the heat.
		I mean, it went up to 115 degrees in the daytime there out in the desert.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's warm.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		All of this probably contributed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it doesn't matter.
		Whatever it is, it got you into altered states.
		And you don't think it was any specific hallucinogenic.
		In other words, you knew enough about your diet to know you weren't ingesting hallucinogenics, even if by accident?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Something was double-clicking my program, and it wasn't hallucinogens.
		I thought that these were dreams.
		I thought that they were dreams until one morning, one of the Africans who worked for us, a guy named Kambulu, he came up to me as I was brushing my teeth at the water tank, and he said to me, Hey, Dr. Hank, what were you doing flying over my tent last night?
		Really?
		Now, this got my attention.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, sure.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		This got my attention.
		And I think, Art, what was happening was that something had double-clicked my program.
		My consciousness was beginning to expand, but I wasn't ready.
		And so I kind of put a bookmark in my life.
		I wrote cryptic notes to myself in my field journals.
		And I went back to doing science.
		Because in those days, that's where I worshipped.
		I worshipped at the altar of science.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, if you were to send reports like that back home, you know, they'd have you on flight so fast that.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		This isn't the sort of thing you reveal to your colleagues.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, it isn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not if you want to remain in the field.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you didn't, but you kept a record.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, ten years later, I was finishing up my Ph.D. in Berkeley, and one night I was, you know, asleep next to my wife, who was about to give birth to our first child.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, a lot of people in the audience, and I'm sorry to interrupt you, will say, oh, yeah, Berkeley, huh?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Berkeley.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Berkeley, huh?
		Well, no wonder you was floating up out of the tents.
		So you want to dismiss that?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, as I've said, I was very straight in the 70s.
		I was helping to run these field expeditions.
		I was doing high-powered science in a lab, the lab of human evolutionary studies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, but you were in Berkeley.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, I mean, you want to just say right now that you didn't do a lot of hallucinogenics in the Berkeley area being...
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		I didn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		I didn't.
		Unlike Terence, I was one of those guys who was very involved with what I was doing.
		You know how scientists tend to be?
		They get locked into their program and they live in that world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm just telling you what some of the audience would say when they even hear Berkeley, so I'm glad to dismiss that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Continue.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Well, the way in which all this really cracked open for me, all right, August 1982, 83, somewhere in there, my wife is getting ready to give birth to our first child.
		I wake up about 4 o'clock in the morning, and there she is reading.
		She's very uncomfortable.
		And so I try to help her get back to sleep.
		I'm massaging her.
		And, of course, inevitably, the magic that touch creates evolved into a joyous marital encounter.
		I think that's a good way to put it.
		Maybe this is the male solution to everything.
		I don't know.
		But at the end of this wonderful encounter, I was completely blissed out.
		And my wife was committed to remain awake and read her book.
		And I remember slipping down under the covers, getting ready to go back to sleep, and suddenly this strange feeling came into my body.
		It was very much like a vibration.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was it guilt?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's hard to say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I'm joking with you.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you're falling right asleep there.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		I was falling asleep, and this vibrational feeling comes into my body, very much like what it's like when you're on a swing, and you swing down and up in this heady arc, and your body fills with this rush of feeling.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		You know what I'm talking about?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I certainly do.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, my body became completely paralyzed as this feeling rushed into me.
		And unlike the swing, it didn't stop.
		It's like somebody was turning up a rheostat.
		And it could have been quite disturbing if it hadn't been so exquisitely pleasurable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you let it go.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I was precipitated into what could be called a visionary state of consciousness, an altered state of consciousness, in which I found myself standing in this forest looking around in all directions at these trees in the dark, and suddenly I hear my wife turn the page of her book.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		It's like I was focused on both realities at the same time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here and there, yes.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		And it was in this dark forest at night that I had a direct encounter with what traditional tribal people would call a spirit.
		Now, nothing in my training in anthropology at Berkeley prepared me for this experience.
		It was really quite a mind-blowing experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you describe it?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		I can.
		I discovered in this state that my thoughts were like actions.
		If I wanted to look at something, I kind of floated over and I could look at it very closely.
		I wasn't sure what I was walking on or how I was getting around.
		But I was hyper-aware, hyper-aroused, you could say.
		And we'll talk about that in a few moments in terms of some very unusual things I can do with my brain, apparently.
		Well, underneath these trees, I suddenly became aware of the fact that there was a human-like silhouette.
		It looked like a tall, door-like form that didn't seem to have any arms or legs with a little head on top, and it was completely black and featureless.
		And as I focused on it, the power sensations in my body just kept going up and up and up, and I found myself sort of picked up off the ground.
		And, I mean, it really felt like there were searchlights flashing out of my eyes.
		I suppose I would have screamed if I could have screamed, but God, I couldn't do anything.
		I was completely and utterly paralyzed next to my wife in bed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We have people on this program that describe what you're describing as called something called shadow people for better name, lack of a better name.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Shadow people.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		That would be a very good way to describe this being.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Very good way.
		And in fact, since that time, I've looked through my anthropology books, and I have found this same silhouette in rock art all over the world.
		In Barrier Canyon, in Utah, in Ontario, in Arizona, in Africa.
		You see the same tall, sort of humanoid figure.
		Looks kind of like a guy in a black trench coat, but without any features whatsoever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, brother.
		Oh, brother.
		Yep.
		You are describing what thousands of people have now described to me.
		We got off on this kick.
		Somebody sent in an email and said, I'll tell you exactly what he said, because it's going to jive, I think, with what you're talking about.
		He said, you know, Art, for years, I've seen what appear to be creatures, but I only catch a tiny glimpse of them in my peripheral vision.
		You know, I catch the movement, I see the movement, and it began that way.
		But, Art, you know, something's changing because now I'm beginning to see these almost featureless human creatures, just like you described, Professor.
		But now I can see them straight on.
		That's it.
		And, you know, this has led to a lot of speculation on this program about vibration and frequency and the fact that we may be beginning as a human race to evolve in some way, in some way, our vibrational level is changing, and we're beginning to see occasionally into a new spectrum and more and more into that new spectrum.
		Something is, perhaps evolution is underway.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Now we're getting into the evolutionary sleepers, you see?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I had a feeling it would jaw.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, this first encounter is in the first chapter of my first book, Spirit Walker.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		It's the beginning of a very unusual story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		And in the third book, Vision Seeker, which came out last year, there's a postscript in that book toward the end of the book called Evolutionary Sleepers.
		I suspect that there are higher functions which are coded into the personal mind-body matrix that can remain dormant throughout life.
		But once they're awakened, they can transform us utterly.
		And I think this is what we're talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		The inner fieldwork of the Eastern mystics, you know, these guys knew about this.
		It suggests that there are timing mechanisms which may involve the ductless glands, the brain, and the heart.
		And once these are activated, these centers can enlighten the whole body, which in turn often undergoes striking changes.
		Now, at this particular time, the human species as a whole has not experienced the triggering of these higher functions.
		But those individuals who have experienced them, you know, whether through hallucinogens or through physiological or psychological or social techniques, they really stand before us as markers, as signposts, as prototypes in a way, of what humankind may actually become when the whole population wakes up and makes the jump.
		And when I say making the jump, what I'm really talking about here is crossing an evolutionary threshold and becoming a new species.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Well, here's an interesting question for you, Professor.
		Think about this.
		That's one evolutionary track that I think you're dead right about, but there is another underway as well.
		And there's a kind of a race going on right now.
		And, you know, we have element 92.
		We have the atomic bomb.
		We have biological poisons that just could take everybody out.
		We have environmental erosion that could make it untenable for the human race to live on Earth if it keeps up.
		We have all these other negative things racing along.
		And it's like a race between that and what you're talking about.
		And you've got to wonder, will we evolve and rise above it all first, or will we blow ourselves to smithereens first?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		That's a good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
		That's why I asked it.
		What do you think?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, recent surveys have shown that as many as one out of every two of us have had some kind of paranormal or anomalous experience at some time in our lives.
		I was at a conference last weekend, the Prophets Conference in Santa Fe.
		Very, very successful venue.
		And when the audience of 400 to 500 people were asked, how many people have had a paranormal anomalous experience, virtually everybody at that conference put up their hand?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, sure, but I mean, look at the conference on that.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		I mean, what we're talking about is if you'd asked that same question 40 years ago, how many people would have put up their hands?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Perilously few.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay, but if you went into the general population and selected that number of people and asked the same question, what percent of hands do you think might go up today?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		I would say about half.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You really think so?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		I think so.
		I think so.
		This has to do with these evolutionary sleepers who seem to be awakening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Who's done these studies?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you know?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, Paul Ray has done a lot of it.
		He's done a lot of the demographics on the values, the trends, the beliefs of this very interesting population.
		He calls them the cultural creatives.
		For me as an evolutionary scientist, the fact that that many people have had these experiences and the fact that in the workshops and seminars that I do, I can use the drum or the rattle and I can double-click this program on people's hard drives so that they vision successfully, very much like traditional tribal shamans, on the very first go.
		You know, there were stories this last weekend, for example.
		I was working with Greg Braden and Barbara Marks Hubbard.
		We did a day of co-creation together with a group of about 150 people, and we used the drum, we used the rattle, and people, after 15 minutes of exposure to this vibrational frequency, you know, were sharing incredible stories about meeting ancestors who had been dead for 10 or 20 years, about meeting spirits, about meeting medicine men and medicine women in these altered states of consciousness.
		Really?
		This was being done without drugs.
		It was being done without hallucinogens.
		And this is what I think it's all about.
		I think it's really about the fact that we have this program, and we can double-click it using various kind of mice, mice to double-click the program.
		I suspect that this program has actually been there for a very long time, possibly as much as 50,000 years, 60,000 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would make sense.
		If it's one of our abilities, it's just something dormant and you've figured out how to awaken it.
		Hold on, Professor, we're at the bottom of the hour.
		Professor Hank Wistleman is my guest.
		A very interesting fellow indeed with a lot to say, and we've got a lot of material to get through.
		And of course, we'll get to your questions as well.
		Wasn't it Gordon Michaels guy in talking about the children of the Blu-ray or something the other night?
		A lot of people talking about what's going on.
unidentified		Happy and I'm smiling.
unidentified		Walk me a mile to drink your vodka.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Coast.
unidentified		You know I love to love the Ghost.
		Seven by the food coast.
		He tried it hard to be creative, but forget to be creative.
		What's your life?
		You must have smiled for his misfortune.
		Never coming near what he wanted to say.
		Or did you realize it never really worked?
		She fixed his life and things as she rises to her party.
		Everybody else works good enough who's watching her go Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast A.M. with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Thigh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Professor Hank Wesselman is my guest.
		We're talking many fascinating things, and you're certainly welcome to stay right where you are.
		I've got an interesting note from William in Portland, Oregon.
		And I've always believed in the altered states produced by music.
		I mean, there's absolutely no question about it.
		Music can produce an altered state, and William in Portland says, I bet the Moody Blues hit that frequency in a lot of their songs.
		I could fly on that music just from the tones.
		So, I agree with you.
		I absolutely agree with you.
		There are some songs that at the right time can take you to a completely different place.
		Stairway to Heaven, Zephyrin.
		Most things by the Moody Blues, music in general, they can produce altered states, can't they, Professor?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		They sure can.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		You know, they're part of what could be really called a technology of transcendence or a technology of the sacred that was developed by the indigenous people probably tens of thousands of years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you get evidence of that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, how do you know that indigenous people that long ago were even aware of these altered states?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, the earliest evidence that I know about comes from a cave site called Blombos Cave down on the tip of South Africa.
		We know that the earliest evidence for Homo sapiens, the species to which we belong, appears in sub-Saharan Africa about 130,000 years ago.
		But although we were anatomically modern like we are today, we were behaviorally more like the Neanderthal people who lived between 300,000 and roughly 30,000 years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And by the way, what happened to them?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, they disappear from the scene about 30,000 years ago.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		And probably they were replaced by migrating anatomically modern Homo sapiens people coming into southwestern Asia and Europe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But why didn't they just keep on propagating?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, they probably did keep on propagating, and it took a very long time for the transition to occur.
		We have, for example, evidence in the period called Urignation, the Orignation period roughly between 42,000 and 30,000 years ago.
		We do have evidence for the fact that Neanderthals were learning how to make stone tools differently from these incoming anatomical moderns.
		And so we see a mixture in their stone toolkits of Musterian artifacts, which is the word we give to the Neanderthal cultural tradition, with the incoming Orignations who had a blade tool technology, which was completely different.
		I think part of the key to the disappearance of the Neanderthals is they were not very innovative.
		They were very skilled tool makers, but they didn't innovate.
		You know, they made their tools in exactly the same way for about 80,000 years, from Uzbekistan in the east to Spain in the west.
		And, you know, they settled into making them in their way, and they just stuck with it.
		Whereas these incoming Homo sapiens people, they developed nine separate stone tool technologies in about a 30,000-year period.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But that still doesn't explain how they virtually disappeared.
		I mean, somehow you would even imagine, even with their old ways, the old ways would remain, the propagation would continue.
		I mean, something had to stop a whole race just cold like that, no more, gone.
		It may have happened over a long, long, long period of time, but how?
		We don't know.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a good question.
		It's part of the great mystery.
		You know, there are two major schools of thought.
		One is that we just simply replace them, and the other school of thought is that we are them, that we interbred with them and just absorb them into our population.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you lean toward.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		I lean toward the former.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		You know, genocide is an old custom.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, practiced very recently over on another continent.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, you know, we have evidence in the archaeological and fossil record for human remains with cut marks on them made by stone tools.
		The most dramatic is a skull from about 600,000 years ago from Ethiopia from a site called Bodo, which has cut marks all over it.
		I mean, it was intentionally to flesh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, we still do that today.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, we take swords and machetes and mop off heads and do all kinds of stuff.
unidentified		We do.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		We do.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		So I sense that this is the way that things went for the Neanderthals when their end came.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that might make sense.
unidentified		Yeah.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, to get back to this cave in South Africa, we have several pieces of red ochre which have interesting patterns inscribed into them, grids, and they kind of look like checkerboards.
		And for people who've had visionary experience, and I'm one of those people, these grids are something that you perceive in altered states of consciousness.
		You see these interesting visual hallucinations, these spots of light and lines and vortexes, and something that looks like a great spider web or a grid, which is spread out across what looks like space and time combined.
		And this grid is the great field, the unitive field throughout which everything is connected to everything else, everywhere and everywhere.
		You can't see it in your ordinary state of consciousness, but those people who can vision can see it.
		And we see the first evidence for this in a symbolic expression at about 77,000 years ago in South Africa.
		That's getting back there now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It certainly is.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		But when art appears, something very interesting occurs.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		When art appears roughly between 35,000 and 40,000 years ago, it pretty much appears all over the world at the same time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Interesting.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		It's a very symbolic way of expressing the self.
		You know, it implies some kind of neural rewiring in the brain.
		The brain didn't get bigger, but we were using the brain differently.
		So that, you know, I could draw a picture of an animal on a cave wall, and you'd recognize it because you would recognize that symbol.
		And this was made possible by a kind of an associative thinking or an associative learning.
		This is something the Neanderthal people apparently couldn't do.
		It was a tremendous advance.
		And from that point onward, we really have behaviorally modern people who dominate the scene.
		And they replace the archaic types everywhere in the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe you can comment then on the behavior being exhibited right now by the people who took those World Trade Center buildings down, destroyed the Pentagon by now, and breaking news tonight, by the way, a car bomb at the U.S. Consulate in Pakistan.
		You know, this kind of modern behavior that is just a modern version of what you're describing.
		So how have we changed so much?
		Or is it just by sheer numbers?
		I mean, not as many doing it now as then?
		Or what?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, it's interesting you should ask that question.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		The last time we were on, I don't know if you remember, but I was scheduled to interview with you on the night of September the 11th.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, we mentioned that just in passing, and it gave us both pause for thought.
		You know, I had to teach a class that day.
		I came back from watching the World Trade Center go down, you know, in my living room.
		And I had to go off and teach a class at one of the colleges where I teach.
		And I'm telling you, about half the students were there.
		Everybody was pretty damn somber.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		People were in shock.
		And I talked a little bit about this phenomenon which had occurred.
		And one of the things that I said to my students is that I personally had been going into Africa now since 1964, which is, you know, 35 years or so.
		And I've watched the lives of the tribal people grow steadily worse over this 30-year period.
		For example, when I go to Addis, you know, the human misery and suffering there is really quite extraordinary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it's getting worse.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, half the world's population, you know, we passed the 6 billion mark.
		Yes.
		Half the world's population endures life waste in which starvation and, you know, abject poverty is just part of their given on a daily basis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that's half of the world's really something for people to consider because they just don't think about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Half the world is starving.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		They are.
		And they're sort of watching television and they're seeing what we have.
		And, you know, this is not a good situation.
		You know, basically without going political, you know, I personally feel that there's just much too much money concentrated on the top.
		And it's not filtering down.
		It's not filtering out into the countryside.
		It's not filtering out into these third world countries, which are really the first world countries.
		And, you know, if we're going to resolve this question, we have to go in there and feed these people and train them and make their life better.
		And they have to understand that we're doing that for them.
		Either that should come from that place of service.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, either that or kill them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because they'll try to kill us.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I hate to be that brutal about it, but that's kind of what it's going to come down to, Professor.
		It's happening right now.
		That's what happened with 9-11.
		That's what happened with what's coming up.
		I mean, we're probably about to face a rash of suicide bombers, homicide bombers, whatever you want to call them here in the U.S. It's going to get worse and worse and worse and worse.
		So I suppose either we give them what they want, and you're suggesting they want basically what we have.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or we kill them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, you know, we have these big bombs, you know.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Those aren't the ones that people are really worried about.
		They're worried about all these bombs that were made in Russia during the Cold War, these small nuclear devices.
		You know, with the end of the Cold War, a lot of these bombs have simply disappeared.
		Nobody knows where they are.
		These are bombs which you can make to look like a rock.
		You can put them next to a bridge and detonate them and they'll kill everybody for 100 miles.
		Nobody knows where they are.
		I mean, the people in Washington are very frightened about this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they should be.
		I mean, there's a lot of fear coming from Washington.
		The American people feel a lot of fear.
		And for, you know, I guess good reason.
		God, we're getting the warnings every single day.
		These are people who, it seems, Professor, just simply want to kill us.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		I think a lot of this has to do with the games that people choose to play in life, the life games.
		You know, I'm distinguishing between trivial and frivolous games played for amusement or entertainment or distraction and those serious and significant life games that present us with challenges and objectives that contribute to our own personal growth and to the greater good of society and the world around us.
		You know, it's really in response to these life games that our constellation of survival skills and abilities is formed and sharpened.
		And this is what really enables each of us to succeed in becoming who and what we are.
		You know, without these games worth playing, life becomes filled with repetition and boredom, giving rise to an ever-growing cycle of meaninglessness and disharmony, depression and despair.
		Now, you know, in thinking about this idea, I came across a book on my bookshelves which I hadn't looked at in about 30 years.
		I don't know if you remember it.
		Do you remember a book that came out in the late 60s by a guy named DeRop, and it was called The Master Game?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do not.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		It's a very interesting book.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		DeRopp was a biochemist who carried out research in the fields of cancer and the biochemistry of the brain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		He essentially Divided the life games that people play into two basic types: object games and metagames.
		Object games are those which are played to explore, master, and acquire the things of the outer world, especially the physical foresome, money, power, sex, and status.
		And that's what we're talking about.
		Metagames are played to master the things of the inner world, intangibles such as knowledge and beauty and salvation of the soul.
		And he pointed out in this book that the different life games we choose to play are really indicators of the type of individuals that we are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Professor, if the survival of the fittest is real, I mean, if that is still operative, if survival of the fittest continues to drive the evolutionary engine, then of these two groups, which one do you think is going to get knocked out?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that all of us play all of them.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		You know, I don't think that we tend to specialize until we discover who and what we are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's another way of asking, do you think we will make an evolutionary leap and suddenly be all warm and relatively, relatively fuzzy?
		Or will we blow ourselves to smithereens?
		Right now, if you look around the world, it's looking an awful lot like the smithereens one there.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		The smithereens scenario is definitely on the horizon, and it's getting a lot closer, and I think a lot of people are freaked out about it.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		I certainly am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, exactly.
		When somebody comes to kill you, when the barbarians are at the gate and they have no desire but to kill as many of you as possible, then you really have very little choice.
		And the more likely response, despite the hope that there would be many who would rise and have this epiphany that we're talking about, that I do believe in, it looks to me like the barbarians are here too soon.
		Yeah.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		It looks like we're still in the barbarian stage of human evolution, doesn't it?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, these are just modern ways of lopping off heads with whatever or bashing them in.
		What is the real difference?
		Just the weapons, you know, the technology.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, when we look at these games, just to think about these games for a minute, you know, the object games are probably hierarchically lower, and they have a pathological edge to them in that the players who play them emerge with very little that they can truly call their own.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		For example, businessmen, right, the corporate world playing the money game.
unidentified		Yes.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		You know, they may emerge as rich as old Rockefeller only to find themselves embittered and unhappy and empty at a loss to know what to do with all their wealth.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Those people who play the fame game with the goal of becoming celebrities realize sooner or later that their fame is an illusion, a shadow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They realize even more than that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're idiots because it's not that much fun.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, the military game, unfortunately, when you look at the fact that our military budget is now close to $400 billion, it was $190 billion in 1996.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We spend $1 billion every single day on defense.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		$1 billion a day on defense.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, in terms of the object games, the military game is probably the deadliest of all the object games.
		Well, we're talking about it.
		It's really played by various grades of trained killers who are programmed to regard their craft as acceptable, even admirable, if those they kill believe in a different God or political god.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's actually patriotic.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, history reveals that players of the military game can kill men, women, and children with boundless enthusiasm.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		I mean, look what's going on in the military game.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, I know, but there's also this other piece of history that says very strongly that those who don't protect themselves get dead.
		And I'm at the national level.
		I'm talking now at the national level.
		I mean, if you invite invasion, if you invite some enemy of yours to come on in and take what's around, they're going to do it.
		That's it.
		Now, so the problem is we've got to still have this military established.
		We have to.
		We have to.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, right now we do.
		But as you're pointing out, there's a kind of criminal element infusing most of these object games because they harm both the players as well as the society of which the players are a part.
		Now, what gives me hope for the future are these metagames.
		We look at the metagames for a minute.
		You know, they're higher in that they're played for intangibles, and they tend to be more subtle.
		Yet even these games tend to express both a positive and a negative polarity.
		You know, people who play the art game, for example, are ideally searching for some kind of inner awareness that can be defined and expressed as beauty.
		And yet, as you know and I know, you know, there are many artists who have no inner awareness at all, and they can only be proficient at imitating those who do have it.
		And others may become known for producing something that lacks beauty entirely, but is acceptable by virtue of being new or startling.
		The science game.
		I play the science game.
		And the science game ideally is involved with the search for knowledge and meaning.
		But you know, I look at my colleagues, and I have to say that there are a lot of them who are little more than technicians with advanced degrees, who, like many who play the art game, are primarily interested in status and fame.
		And of course, as all who play the science game discover sooner or later, projects that are truly original tend to be excluded by the array of committees that stand between the scientists and their funding and so forth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Oppenheimer played the science game.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Now the religion game.
		All right, the religion game is under siege right now because it's being exposed for what it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, but see, the religion game seems to be part of the well, just listen to this, and we'll come back and talk about it, the religion game.
unidentified		Damn!
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, the religion game seems to be part of the war game.
		Because everybody who goes to war, they hold up their god as justification for going out to bash in the other guy's skull.
		Right?
unidentified		Right?
		Believe the darkness of his life want me in dead, and I'll become mother.
		When they're supposed to fight and lose their lives, I said, whoa.
		We'll be right back.
		We'll be right back.
		We still have time, but still get by.
		Every time I think about it, I won't cry.
		With all the feelings, the kids keep coming.
		No way to be the easy time to be yours But I'd tell myself that I'm a-doin'my way There's nothin'left to do tonight Put so crazy on you To reach art, Bell in the Kingdom of Naive.
		From west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		Or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It sure is.
		My guest is a very, very interesting man.
		The flip side of last night all the way, well, at least most of the way, Professor Hank Wesselman.
		And if you have a question for him, and I can't imagine you wouldn't after everything we've discussed tonight, you know how to do it, right?
		We're as close as your telephone, so that's where we're headed here pretty shortly.
		I'm going to let you speak with him, however it may go.
		So stay seated.
		It should be very interesting.
		Well, all right.
		Once again, Professor Hank Wusselman, welcome back.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is kind of interesting.
		Fritz in Phoenix asks, hi art, great show tonight.
		Would the professor say that the grid that he sees, which connects all things, corresponds to perhaps the concept of the matrix?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		And it's also, of course, the same thing as what the Hindus call the net of Indra or the Celtic people call the web of weird.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The web of weird?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Weird.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		That's where the word weird comes from.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it really?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		W-Y-R-R-D, weird.
unidentified		Wow.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		That's the great web that connects everything everywhere.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		It's the great web of life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is this also what scientists are now beginning to call this non-locality?
		I hear a lot of talk about non-locality.
		The concept that everything is connected to everything and that people like remote viewers and others extract information from what they call the non-locality.
		It's just words for connected everything, consciousness, connected.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a very interesting question.
		I suspect that changes, recent changes to quantum theory and current discoveries in neurobiology reveal something very interesting about the human brain.
		And it hinges on this question.
		The human brain seems to organize information holographically, and it functions very much like a massively parallel quantum computer, with the microtubules and the neurons of the brain most likely being the quantum hologram receptors.
		Now, it has been suggested that the quantum hologram, and that's what we're talking about in terms of the grid, the grid is really a kind of quantum hologram.
		It's the wave portion of the wave-particle duality for macro-scale objects.
		Are you guys still with me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think so.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		The scientist kicks in here from time to time and throws something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, that's fine.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		You know, it'd be interesting if McKenna were here with us tonight.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		He's probably out there somewhere in the ether, you know, listening in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, why do you think you're mentioning him so often?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I thought of him.
unidentified		Because he's probably with you.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		You know, it has been proposed that this quantum hologram may tie the phenomenal universe of quantum, micro, macro, and cosmic-sized phenomena together.
		and that this hologram, this grid, may be the mechanism through which nature actually learns.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I know he would.
		And I'm so sorry he's not.
		I want to take a few calls this hour.
		Are you up to that?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, a lot of people with questions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Professor Hank Wesselman.
unidentified		Hi.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Hi, this is Wolfgang.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		I'm calling from Mississauga.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From where?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Mississauga, Ontario.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Hey, Wolfgang, how you doing?
		Not too bad.
		I was at your workshop here in Toronto.
		How are you doing?
		Just two, three weeks ago.
		That's right.
		Good.
		I was hearing about your grid, and I've seen the grid actually doing some healing work as well.
		And I was just wondering.
		I'm a little bit nervous.
		The grid.
unidentified		Sorry.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, skip it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've lost it, huh?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		What do you know about the grid?
		Well, when I was doing work with a Native American, I was doing some Reiki treatment on him.
		And it was very bizarre that I saw the grid when I was doing, like you get into a light trance state when you're doing the Reiki, and I was actually delivering a message as well from it to him and I just thought it was interesting that he saw it too and I was just wondering about that if you could maybe talk some more about it all right let's talk some more about it this is a very worthy question and in fact my book Vision Seeker there's a chapter in in Vision Seeker called The Nature
		of Reality in which I really look at the nature of reality through the eyes of the kahuna mystics of Polynesia.
		Now they had a very interesting way of seeing reality.
		There's the physical reality which we all take so much for granted as being the real reality.
		And we experience the physical plane the way in which we do because of three basic assumptions.
		First of all, everything's separate from everything else.
		Wolfgang, you're up there in Ontario and I'm down here in Sacramento.
		No question about it.
		Secondly, everything on the physical plane has a beginning and an ending.
		And thirdly, all effects have a cause.
		Now we accept these assumptions as real and we perceive through them like lenses and that's why we experience the physical world the way in which we do.
		But now if we raise our vibrational level and we go into the second, what the kohonas might call ikepapalua, the second level of reality, awareness, and experience, we're going into that level that you're talking about, the energetic level, the level in which Reiki works, the level of thoughts, emotions, and feelings, and psychic awareness.
		In fact, ikepapalua is the word for psychic awareness in Hawaiian.
		Now, the first assumption on this level, this is a subjective plane, not an objective one.
		Thoughts, emotions, and feelings are subjective, not objective.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you are at that level, are you able to look back at this level and subjectively judge it compared to where you are?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		You sure can.
		I mean, if you're thinking, you're in that level right now.
		But this is the level in which the first assumption is that everything is connected to everything else.
		On the physical plane, everything's separate from everything else.
		On the second level, everything's connected to everything else.
		And it's connected to everything else through the grid, through the matrix.
		The matrix is essentially, it functions as the carrier of the energy.
		It's not energetic itself, but it carries the energy.
		And that's why people who are doing energy work or Veiki work perceive the grid.
		It's also the level of non-locality, because time is all at once.
		You're outside of the time-space continuum.
		Yes.
		And there are no beginnings and endings at the second level.
		There are only cycles and transitions.
		Cycles and transitions.
		See, energy cannot be created or destroyed.
		That's a law of thermodynamics.
		But it can shift to a new state.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you're able, when in that state, to actually look back and subjectively observe this state, does it look, does it feel prehistoric?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does it feel alien as compared to the state you're in and the consciousness level you feel?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Let me give you an example of how I experienced it recently.
		Sure.
		I was on a hike up in the high Sierras, and to make a long story short, we walked about 20 miles.
		And at the end of that long day, sort of the annual death march, I was walking down this long glacial valley, and I picked up a beautiful arrowhead made out of obsidian.
		It was obviously made by the prehistoric people that used to go up there.
		This is about 8,000 feet, to get stone out of the rocks, to get obsidian glass out of the rocks from which they could make stone tools.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've got some obsidian deposits, big ones, very close to me here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's wild stuff, isn't it?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		It's great.
		Well, on this particular day, I was very tired, and it was late in the day, and I remember looking across this sort of Willow Flat, if I could call it that.
		In fact, that's what the name of this place is, Willow Flat.
		And I remember thinking to myself, where did the prehistoric people, where did the Native Americans live?
		And of course, my inner archaeologist clicks on.
		I start scanning the valley, and I saw it.
		I saw this wonderful mound that was close to the stream.
		Perfect place for camp, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And as I'm first time callers, area code 775-727-1222.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Have my eyes, kind of like Brigadoon appearing out of the mist.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		I can see the lodges, I can see the Indians, I can see the children playing in the city.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's go back and rephrase that.
		I just zapped that out for the ultra-sensitive out there, you know.
		So the whole damn thing.
		Right.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm getting worked up here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
		Just rephrase it so everybody hears it properly.
		Just say damn.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		The whole camp just sort of appeared in front of my eyes, and I blink.
		I can see it absolutely clearly, the smoke rising from the fireplaces, the women working on hides staked out on the ground, the men sitting and doing chores, making bowstrings and so forth.
		And suddenly, it's gone.
		Now, that's a non-local experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It sure is.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		What I was doing is I was tapping into the field of that place in second level, and I was perceiving something recorded in the field of that place, whether it happened 100 years ago or 1,000 years ago, no way of knowing.
		But I sensed that I was looking across space and time into something that happened there a long time ago.
		This, of course, hinges on what my strange books are about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Haven't you ever questioned, though, whether you're just not having, you know, like an archaeologist's field of dreams, whether what you're experiencing is not real, but concocted from all the information that you know so well with all of your formal training and that your brain is applying that at that moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's not necessarily real fantasy from your mind.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you see, what I'm using here is I'm using the quantum hologram.
		See, the quantum hologram may be the basis for all perception, including psychic awareness.
		Because what I was seeing was essentially a psychic experience.
		You know, it also suggests that true psychic sight is not the sixth sense, but it may actually be the first sense because it may very well have been around since the Big Bang.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I agree with that as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very quickly, first time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Hank Wusselman.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		And Dr. Hank, and love your show.
unidentified		Art, I'm going to argue with this guy for as long as you'll let me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, you're on a cell phone, so let's see how you do.
unidentified		Okay.
		Dr. Hank, yep.
		I submit to you that isotope, radioactive isotope dating is the same no matter whether it's carbon or potassium or whatever.
		And the same assumptions and the same logic that they use for carbon dating is the same assumptions and logic that they use for potassium.
		And all it is with potassium is a more accurate way of misdating.
		That's what I submit.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		We've got much deeper range of time.
		See, the half-life of potassium argon goes back to about a billion and a half years ago.
		Whereas the half-life of carbon-14 is only good for about 50,000 years.
unidentified		But, Doctor, they're uncovering rocks right now known when they were created.
		Down in the land down under, down in New Guinea, Mount St. Helens, where they are already misdating them by millions of years.
		They've shown carbon.
		And all I'm saying is that potassium dating is just another package.
		And it's just, you're trying to stay ahead, one step ahead, of scientists who come out and show this to be inaccurate.
		It is absolutely inaccurate, Doctor.
		And furthermore, Dr. Ball last night pointed out that there's a fossilized tree, and this is not the only case, but this tree goes over 20 million years of layers of sediment.
		Okay?
		And it just totally disproves, in my opinion, that we even had a Jurassic period, Neolithic, and all of that.
		How can you explain that, Doctor?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, do you think that all of the dinosaur fossils are fakes?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
unidentified		No, no, no.
		The fossils are real.
		The only reason they could be fossilized in the first place is to be buried under a worldwide flood deep enough to where the bacteria could not get to it.
		We have millions and billions of bison and not a single fossil.
		There was no flood when the bisons were killed off.
		Oh, we've got the line of money.
		We have dinosaur fossils, no doubt about it.
		But it's just like they used to say that coal itself is millions of years old.
		And there's already coal forming right there at Mount St. Helens.
		It's just another example of how wrong we have been so far.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		In Oregon.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		You're up in Oregon.
unidentified		No, sir.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		In Washington?
unidentified		I'm in Cincinnati.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you're in Cincinnati?
unidentified		I'm just calling on a cell phone.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		You are?
unidentified		I'm a truck driver, but I'm a self-educated man.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		I thought you were on the West Coast, and I was going to invite you to come down sometime to Berkeley and go to the Museum of Paleontology, where you can see some really fabulous stuff.
unidentified		Oh, I'd love to, but that still wouldn't change my opinion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, it absolutely wouldn't, Doctor.
		Thank you, Caller.
		You know, he's absolutely right.
		I mean, he would take a look at everything you would show him, and I guarantee you, his opinion would not change.
		He would say, any measurement that you're using, any process you're using to date is wrong.
		And the reason he would say that is because he has faith.
		And there's that word faith.
		You know, he has faith, which is a belief in something you cannot prove, which you wouldn't be able to shake.
		I don't care what you showed him.
unidentified		Right.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		It has to do with spiritual unfolding, really, doesn't it?
		You know, in the stages of spiritual unfolding, there are four basic levels.
		The very first level is belief.
		You know, believing in God, believing in spirits.
		You can have mythic beliefs.
		You can have magical beliefs.
		You can have scientific and rational beliefs.
		But usually beliefs fail to compel us in the end.
		And, you know, a decade, two decades can go by believing, and not much changes in our lives.
		This is where faith steps in.
		That's the second level.
		You know, faith soldiers on while beliefs fail to compel us anymore.
		And faith can take you in two different directions.
		It can either spiral you back into belief, which in my opinion is what fundamentalism is, or it can take into the other direction.
		And the other direction is the third level of spiritual unfolding, direct experience.
		Now you can believe in spirits, you can have faith in spirits, but when you've had direct experience of spirit, it takes you immediately to the fourth and final stage, which is personal transformation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that man would have said of the spirits that you speak of that they are not spirits.
		They are evil manifestations.
		He wouldn't deny their reality, their existence, but to him, he would say they're evil manifestations.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		I would probably disagree.
		That doesn't mean that there are not evil spirits.
		I believe that there are, and I've had to deal with them on occasion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That might be an interesting question when we get back.
		Doctor, hold on.
		Dr. Hank Wesselman is my guest from the high desert.
		This, of course, is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		Don't bother asking for explanation She'll just tell you that she came In the inner of the cat She doesn't give you time for questions
		As she locks up your arm in her And you follow to your sense of which direction Completely disappears By the blue tarp wall near the market stalls There's a hidden door she leads you to These days she spends, I feel my life Just like a river running through The air out of the cat.
		Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast A.M. with Arbel from the Kingdom of Nive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in a sense, you see, The Matrix is real.
		The concept is fascinating, and the probability is that it's real.
		And that may mean that, in essence, those of us who play some certain games only ever see The Matrix.
		Never see anything else.
		that would probably amount to about half of us.
		And the other half, well, they probably think it's pure rubbish.
		I guess all I could say in my life is I have had occasional fast, uninvited glimpses of the grid.
		Very short, very brief, very unexpected, and that's all.
		But then you see, I can understand that there may be some out there who literally can exist almost entirely, that certainly would be something to imagine, entirely outside of this matrix and within the grid.
		There probably are people like that.
		I'm certainly not one of them.
		Professor Hank Wesselman is almost one of them here.
		But, you know, you get grounded enough to sit here and talk to us.
		Right?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		You know, the grid is very important because it takes us into the third level.
		The grid exists between the physical world and the third level, which is the spirit world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		And this is what happened to me out in Africa.
		I began to perceive the spirit world through the grid.
		But I had no idea what I was experiencing in those days.
		You know, I wasn't ready.
		But in the 80s, I had a whole series of these visionary experiences.
		I began to vision, very much like traditional shamans.
		And it seemed to be a completely spontaneous affair that was triggered, that was double-clicked by lovemaking.
		Lovemaking with my wife.
		And we talked about this when we conversed back in January.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I recall.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was really quite extraordinary.
		I began to have these classic visionary experiences in which I was traveling through the grid and into a higher level of vibration where you find these spirits.
		And this is really what my books are about.
		How I connected with the mind of a man.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, tell everybody about your books.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I want to give you a good chance to plug them because obviously if they're interested in what they've heard tonight, they're going to want to follow up and they're going to want to grab one of those books.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Well, the first book, Spirit Walker, is really the story of my initiation.
		It's the story of how I went crazy in Hawaii.
		I began to connect through this visionary channel, for lack of a better term, through this matrix with the mind of another man.
		I began to be able to see through his eyes, hear through his ears.
		I could pick up his thoughts, his memories, his emotions, his feelings, and judgments.
		And they were not my memories.
		If I've got this right, and I believe I do, this man is one of my descendants.
		In fact, he could very well be a descendant self.
		Now, that doesn't mean he's Hank Wesselman.
		There's only one Hank Weselman right here, right now.
		But in some way, his energy, his energy body, is derived from mine.
		And energy seems to be the connecting link between this man and myself.
		And once there was a suitable sender and receiver on each end, I began to perceive across the space-time continuum into a future time, which is roughly 5,000 years from now.
		Now, how is such a phenomenon possible?
		Well, in fact, my books are about this interesting phenomenon.
		You know, Spirit Walker is the story of 12 visionary experiences in which I saw the future world through the mind and heart of this man.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you take a moment?
		I mean, that's a great tease, but can you take a moment?
		If you have seen 5,000 years into the future, we sure would like to hear a little bit about it.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Would you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, absolutely.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, this man is a Hawaiian.
		That's not surprising since I was living in Hawaii, but he wasn't in Hawaii.
		I was in Hawaii.
		He was living somewhere on the western coast of North America in what is possibly California, but the Central Valley is filled with saltwater because there's been a marine inundation.
		Remember when we began to talk a little bit about this climatic change scenario, the greenhouse warming?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		And California is covered with rainforest.
		This man is essentially living on the coast of the lost continent of America.
		Now, you know, when I think of my scientific reputation going down the drain, you know, how would I make such wild claims?
		Well, in fact, my books are a very careful investigation of a very bizarre, ongoing psychic phenomenon, which still goes on for me to this day.
		In my third book, Vision Seeker, there's a chapter called The Gateway to Transcendent Experience, in which the universe dropped something absolutely extraordinary into my lap, the scientific validation of these altered state experiences.
		In 1996, after my first book was published, I got a large envelope from the University of Illinois at Chicago School of Public Health.
		It was a letter from a psychiatrist, a man who's in the Department of Psychiatry.
		He's also co-director of the Brain Function Lab.
		His name is Norman Don.
		Norman Don wrote to me, and he said, you know, I just read your Book Spirit Walker, and you might be interested to know, I think I know what it is that you're doing.
		He went on to describe the research of a French investigator named Henri Gasteau back in the 50s.
		This man Gasteau was the world's foremost investigator of temporal lobe epilepsy at that time, so he had impeccable credentials.
		He went to India looking for a guru who could achieve the direct conscious connection with the Godhead that is called samadhi.
		And he found one.
		This guru allowed himself to be wired for sound.
		He allowed himself to be wired for an EEG, an electroencephalogram.
		And what Gasteau was expecting is he was expecting this guru's brain waves to drop down from beta, which is thinking, through alpha, which is resting, into those very regular, slow brainwave states called theta waves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Because it's been known for a long time that Zen masters and meditators and shamans, visionaries go into these theta brainwave states.
		Well, in fact, when he measured the guru's brain waves, the guru went in the other direction.
		He went way out beyond beta.
		Now, beta states are roughly 13 to 20 cycles per second.
		That's called Hertz.
		Right.
		This guru was going out to 40 Hertz, and he was generating between 40 and 50 microvolts of amplitude.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Holy mackerel.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		10 to 15 is normal.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		10 to 15 is normal in beta waves.
unidentified		Right.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		And Gasteau published this back in the 50s in a French publication, a peer-reviewed journal, and the paper had been widely cited for the last 40 years, but it had never been challenged because we simply didn't have a model of consciousness in which to fit these rather extraordinary brainwave states.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, why not?
		I mean, science is repetition.
		Why not try to repeat it at least?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		They couldn't find anybody who could do it.
		Now, this guy, Norman Dunn, had been working in Brazil for the past eight years on an NIH grant.
		He had topographic brainwaves on over 100 subjects in altered states of consciousness.
		Psychics, transmediums, shamans, and so forth and so on.
		And in this group, he found 13 individuals who could achieve these 40 hertz brainwave states.
		And guess what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		All of them have had the alien abduction experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's really interesting.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Here it comes.
		All of them claimed that they could not go into these very high-frequency brainwave states until they had connection with these extraterrestrial beings.
		And all of them could step into it and out of it at will.
		All of them claimed to see and connect with spirits.
		Some of them claimed to have direct conscious connection with God.
		Now, having laid this out for me, Norman Don then asked the question, could I achieve these expanded awareness states through my own volition?
		Now these started for me back in the early 1980s, and this now is the middle 1990s.
		And in some way, which I don't fully understand consciously, my subconscious mind has learned how to do this, has learned how to achieve these very powerful brainwave states in which my body is filled with power, and I vision.
		I vision like traditional shamans.
		So the question was, could I do it?
		So I picked up the phone.
		He gave me his pager number.
		And I called him.
		This was the beginning of a most unusual relationship because in talking to Norman Dunn, he was very excited.
		He wanted me to come to Chicago to run some tests on my brain waves.
		And to make a long story short, with my teaching schedule and my workshop and seminar schedule, I couldn't go.
		So he came to California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		He brought his portable field unit with him, set up a lab in his hotel room here in Sacramento.
		And over an hour and a half period, he wired my brain for sound with the Electrogel and the Skull Cap and the software and the LexiCorp 24 system.
		In other words, this was hard science.
		He turned everything on, sat in front of the computer screen, and asked me to just go into resting states, thinking states, and so forth and so on.
		He gathered all this data on the way in which my brain was functioning from front to back.
		And then he said, okay, let's see you open this inner doorway of yours.
		So I did it.
		And I gave him a real beauty.
		I just opened that doorway, and my body was filled with these incredible feelings of force or power.
		And, you know, I was just soaring, just soaring.
		And this is without drugs, I might add.
		No drugs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got you.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		He's watching this screen, and the first words out of his mouth were, wow, you can really do it, can't you?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		And I thought to myself, why would I say I could do it and waste his time and mine?
unidentified		You know what I mean?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was peaked.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so what was he registering?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		He said, can you do it again?
		The guru could only do it twice.
		So over the next hour, I voluntarily induced this altered state of consciousness in which I vision.
		And in all dozen trials, my brain waves were going out to 40 hertz, generating between 50 and 60 microvolts of amplitude.
unidentified		Wow.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		And interestingly, it was focused mostly in the frontal and prefrontal lobes of the brain, not in the temporal lobes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But the frontal lobes.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		The frontal lobes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not surprised.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's incredible.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		This is incredible because it validates scientifically the stuff we talked about last January.
		He came over to my house for lunch afterwards, and he looked at my wife and said, you've got a very unusual husband.
		My wife, of course, looked at him and said, what else is new?
		Because you've been through all this with me, you see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Guess she'd know.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		My story is not unlike the story of a beautiful mind.
		When I was going through this initiation crisis, I lost virtually everything except my wife and kids.
		And it was very touch-and-go there for a while.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can imagine that, yes.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		It was a classic shamanic initiation crisis.
		Well, he looked at me and he said, you know, I've only been able to find 13 other people who can do this.
		And I have a theory that those of you who can achieve these very high-frequency brainwave states could very well be prototypes for a new species.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's entirely within reason.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		This sort of draws us back to the evolutionary sleepers.
		As I said, for people who are interested in this story I've just told you, there's a whole chapter in Vision Seeker complete with footnotes and subtitles and references for this stuff.
		It's real science.
		I suspect that this evolutionary program, this evolutionary program, is part of some kind of imperative or probability which is drawing us toward it like a magnet.
		Now, this statement does not throw me into the political sphere of the religious creationists and their rather limited concept of a fatherly monogod.
		Rather, it implies that evolution is a co-creative process in which everything everywhere is in relationship.
		See, there's the relationship, united by this grid, united by this biological program on our hard drive, in which everything is being both driven by evolutionary impulses from the past and drawn towards evolutionary probabilities that exist in the future.
		And I suspect that this push-pull dynamic has been going on for truly immense amounts of time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, sure is going to be fun to see where it goes.
		Professor, first-time caller align, we've got to get them on.
		They're waiting.
		Okay, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		This is Peggy in Kansas City.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I am so excited to get on.
		I can't tell you.
		But I have a question for the professor.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		I believe in a lot of things, but why can't somebody get into the mind of Osama bin Laden or somebody to tell where they're going or what they're going to do so we can prevent stuff like this?
		Everybody claims that they can do that.
		I mean, you know, tell the future, tell this, that, and the other.
		But why doesn't somebody tell that kind of future?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		In a way, it's a very interesting question.
		And, you know, after 9-11, everybody screamed bloody murder.
		Why didn't the psychics call it?
		Why didn't those who can see in ways that they say others cannot see?
		Why didn't they call it?
		Why didn't they know?
		Why wasn't there some warning from that segment?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		From that sector, from the psychic sector.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I suspect that there is a...
		I don't think that you're really allowed to get into somebody's head and mess with them.
		Unless, of course, you're one of the dark forces.
		We have these spirits of the dead and so forth that seem to assault people with the disorder called schizophrenia, for example.
		These people seem to lack protection.
		But the rest of us have a kind of shield.
		And I suspect that the physical body is a kind of shield which protects us from people getting into our field, people of equal or lower vibration, and messing with us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, I will tell you this.
		Prior to 9-11, and people are welcome to go back and check the programs, say a month or two prior to 9-11, I had call after call after call from people saying something really big is about to happen.
		So they had a general idea that an event, a major event, was very close, but nobody had specifics.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		You know what I suspect?
		They're operating through feeling mode rather than through thinking mode.
		And they can feel it, but consciously, they're not aware of exactly what it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that makes sense.
		Makes sense to me.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Hank Wesselman.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Hi, this is the Prophet again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Prophet, you get one call per show, that's all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		The question that I had was about your dating methods.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Dating.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		You're interested in geochronology.
unidentified		Yes, yes.
		I've had people tell me that to know if the methods are accurate or not, we have to know how much the C14 there is at the beginning when they first ate the wood and everything.
		They have to know how much is in the wood when it's first, I guess, made, basically.
		And my question was, how do we know how to answer that question then?
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, geochronology, you know, we're getting into an area here which is extremely technical and very well known in the scientific world.
		There's an extensive literature, there's an extensive methodology now for doing geochronology, which is very sophisticated.
		A lot of it, you know, if you're doing carbon-14 work, that was sort of the preliminary, the precursor to all of the very sophisticated dating techniques we have today, which are carried out in very powerful labs with grants and machinery and vacuum tubes and the whole thing.
		Part of the key is collecting the samples in the field and making sure that you get good samples from inside rocks which have not been contaminated on the outside.
		And geologists are trained to do this.
		Geologists are very highly trained scientists.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but he's saying essentially what I said in the beginning, too, and that is, without knowing the original composition, you are making some presumptions in these dating methods, are you not?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you're forced to.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's true to some extent, but at the same time, we sort of compare the geochronology of radiometric dating with what is already known from sites all over the world.
		I mean, you know, this is, you know, we're going into an area which is probably much more technical than most of your listeners would be interested in hearing.
		But allow me to assure you that this is an extremely exact science.
		It's as exact as physics.
		We're essentially talking about geophysics.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		All right.
		Well, look, it has been Incredible once again to have you on the program.
		You are an amazing person, Professor.
		Absolutely amazing.
		And I hope everybody will go, and I suspect many will, and take a good read of your books.
		And I want to thank you for being here tonight, and I guarantee we'll have you back again.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Hey, how about a website pitch?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pitch away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've got a link, of course, but go ahead.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, share itwisdom.com.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		For those of you who are interested in seeing what I do and where I do it, share itwisdom.com.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's easy.
		Sharedwisdom.com.
		All right, my friend.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		All right, it's been a pleasure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night.
hank wesselman ▲ ● ▼		Good night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's it for now, folks.
		Now, tomorrow night.
		Tomorrow night is going to be probably pretty wild.
		We're going to do a little speculating and social investigation with regard to the prospect of Planet X. See you tomorrow night.

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