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June 13, 2002 - Art Bell
02:39:54
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Hank Wesselman - Shamanism
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♪♪♪ From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I
bid you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you are on the globe, and we cover one way or the
other, the entire globe.
It's great to be here.
I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
All right.
Number one tonight's gonna be the website.
Uh, let me start you out there.
Do you remember the probably funniest clip in the world?
Remember the Joe and the Deer clip?
No?
Somebody has sent me something that is right on up there with Joe and the Deer.
I mean, this is really, really good.
And on my website, you will find it listed as audio, a little comedy clip.
Well, it's more than a little... It's one of the funnier things that I've ever heard.
So if you want to lift, this will lift your entire day.
I can absolutely guarantee it.
This was apparently a telephone call.
Uh, that a lady made, uh, regarding, uh, it's, let me put it this way.
I thought about it earlier in the day, and I came real close to playing it on the air.
But, I decided against it.
I came real close to playing it here on the air.
Uh, you know, I really would like to, but, you know, it deals kind of there on the line a little bit, and so I opted not to.
I thought, no, well, you know, that's what the website's for.
So, it's up on the website.
All I can tell you is, This one will put you on the floor.
It's called a Little Comedy Clip.
And then, uh, we have... It says, old photo of alleged producto.
Well... Oh, and this chicken.
Oh my God, the chicken.
Have you seen the new, uh... Have you seen the new chickens?
The chickens... ...that are genetically altered?
Ah, yuck!
We've got pictures of the new, genetically better chickens.
Now...
I mean, right away, yeah, you can see the chicken doesn't have any feathers, which has got to make plucking it easier, you know, if you've got to pluck your chicken.
But other than that, this chicken is one ugly sucker.
I mean, it's enough to turn you against chicken, as far as I'm concerned.
But it's genetically altered, and they say better, probably better this, better that, better parts, better cooking.
Then underneath that is a picture of this bird that I wouldn't have said pterodactyl, because, well, maybe, but nah, not really.
But, whatever it is, it's an old picture, obviously, from a very old newspaper.
Whatever this thing is, there's a guy holding it, and it's absolutely blinking gigantic.
You tell me what it is, I have no idea, but it's very interesting.
So, you can go and view these delicious, genetically altered chickens.
Now, these, before they're turned into chicken meat, And then, boy, are they weird.
And then the old photo, and then, uh, but most of all, a little comedy clip.
That's a funny, funny clip.
So, you know, it's one that I just won't quite play on the air, and, uh, maybe you'll, maybe you'll see why.
God, it's funny.
All right, let's see what's going on in the world.
Um, as I've asked Musare, this person charred, as the September 11th, uh, Conspirator denied in court today that he'd been in contact with the hijackers, claiming he had secret information that would set him free.
Now, he is going to be allowed, I guess, uh, to represent himself in court.
That's pretty interesting.
Representing, uh, there was, uh, uh, somebody who said, uh, somebody who represents himself is a fool for a lawyer.
You know, I, maybe, maybe not.
Who knows?
Maybe it's one of those kinds of things where he knows his goose is cooked, and so he wants to make some speeches, you know?
Probably not exactly pro-American either, huh?
So, it could be that, it could be a lot of things.
How are they... You know what I'm wondering?
How are they gonna put together a jury to try this guy?
How are they gonna do that?
I mean, they screen a jury, right?
And where are you going to find a jury of people in the U.S.
without Shall we say, extremely strong feelings about 9-11.
I mean, really, really, really strong feelings about 9-11.
There's a lot of things you could have missed in the news, but 9-11 wouldn't have been one of those.
That'd be really something to try to get that jury put together.
The jurors, trying to reach a verdict in Arthur Anderson's obstruction of justice trial, sent out a stream of questions today.
After the judge, you'll recall, sent them back in, they said, well, we can't get to a verdict.
He said, well, go back and try again.
About an hour into today's session, they sent U.S.
District Court Judge Melinda Harmon a note hinting that each one of them believes someone at the Chicago-based firm had committed wrongdoing.
Well, that's a pretty big hint, I would say, from the jury.
Anderson's lead attorney said, that question on its face is very discouraging to us.
I'm sure it is.
Shows how they feel.
All right, I would like to read you something that comes from Dr. Steven Greer.
It's kind of long, and I'm not sure I can get all the way through it, but I want you to get a sense of it.
We also have that up on the website for you.
And you know what I just noticed?
No, let me go ahead and read as much as I can of it.
Imagine this.
It's the summer of 2001.
Someone presents you with a script for a movie or maybe a book.
That tells how a diabolical terrorist plot unfolds when both 110-story World Trade Center towers and part of the Pentagon are destroyed by commercial jets hijacked and flown into those structures.
And of course, you'd laugh.
And if you were a movie mogul or book editor, reject it out of hand as ridiculous and implausible.
Even for a fictional novel or a movie, after all, how could a commercial jet being trapped on radar, after two jets had already hit the World Trade Centers, make it through our air defenses into the most sensitive airspace in the world in broad daylight on a clear day, and slam into the Pentagon?
And this is in a country that spends over 1 billion dollars per day to defend itself.
Absurd, illogical, nobody'd believe it.
Unfortunately, there are some of us who have seen these scripts.
And of far worse things to come, and we are not laughing.
One of the few silver linings to these recent tragedies is that maybe, just maybe, people will take it seriously.
However far-fetched it may seem at first, the prospect that a shadowy, paragovernmental, transitional entity exists which has kept UFOs secret and is planning a deception and tragedy that will dwarf the events of 9-11.
So, what I'm going to do is kind of skip ahead here.
This is a many-page piece that I highly recommend that you read from Dr. Stephen Greer.
But basically, it boils down to Dr. Greer believing that indeed there is a concocted scheme to concoct a threat from outer space You know, involving perhaps exploding nuclear weapons, perhaps involving a lot of things, taking war into space.
And Dr. Greer worries about war in space, as you know, a very great deal.
He's complained bitterly and rightfully so about weapons in space and how others, if they are out there, would react to this sort of thing, right?
So he thinks it's coming, and probably what I should do is, number one, I posted the entire article on the website.
It's a pretty important article, I think, that Dr. Greer has written.
And, uh, number two, I should probably get Dr. Greer on the air to talk about this.
It's pretty serious stuff.
He really believes that, uh, for whatever reasons, and he goes into great detail, you know, the military-industrial complex's future, right, at a billion dollars a day, that's, boy, did you know we were spending that much money, a billion dollars a day, For every day, a billion dollars on defense.
And that expenditure will not continue to be justified, really, unless we have some greater threat.
And so it's not exactly illogical that, you know, they might produce something like that.
Stay right there.
We'll be right back.
Sound of jet engine.
Sound of helicopter.
Sound of helicopter.
This is pretty interesting stuff.
This comes from London.
About half my news, I swear, comes from Great Britain.
London, England.
CNN, by the way.
Scientists have revealed a mysterious recording that they say could be the sound of a giant beast lurking in the depths of the ocean.
Researchers have nicknamed the strange, unidentified sound picked up by undersea microphones, Bloop.
They call it Bloop.
While it bears the varying frequency hallmark of marine animals, so they know it's a marine animal, it is far more powerful than the calls made by any creature known on Earth.
This is all on Britain's new scientist.
It is too big for a whale, much too big.
And one theory is that it actually is.
Prepare yourself for this.
A deep sea monster.
Possibly many tentacled.
Possibly a giant squid.
In 1997, bloop!
Was detected by U.S.
Navy spy sensors 3,000 miles apart.
That had been put there to detect the movement of Soviet submarines, the magazine said.
Now, you think about that one for a second.
Bloop.
As they so endearingly have called it.
Is loud enough to be heard by spy sensors spaced 3,000 miles apart.
Now what the hell is that big?
That would have to be Really, really big, wouldn't it?
So that set me to thinking about, you know, undersea monsters.
There's plenty of legend in, uh, around the world, the seafaring world, to support the notion of real monsters, right?
Coming up out of the sea as long as we have been sailing the seas on Earth.
There have been consistent, repetitive reports of monsters, and now this.
Ah, what the Cold War brought us, huh?
And then here's some, perhaps, pretty good news.
Once again, source is CNN on this.
After spotting dozens of planets in exotic orbits, in various orbits, scientists now have found, they say, a planetary system that looks similar to our solar system.
The announcement came Thursday as astronomers described the discovery of 15 new planets in other star systems, including one that resembles Jupiter around a sun-like star.
Known as 55 Cancri, I believe that is, C-A-N-C-R-I, the star system is about 41 light years away.
And that's not that far.
That's, well, it is.
It's 41 years traveling at the speed of light.
And they say it will likely remain a place of particular interest as astronomers begin looking for planets like Earth in the coming years.
Right now, unfortunately, we can look at the bigger planets in these other systems.
You know, they show a wobble as they cross the star.
So we know they're there.
We just can't see the smaller ones yet because we can't resolve that much wobble.
Yet.
But they're obviously going to be there.
The planetary system will be the best candidate for Direct pictures when the Terrestrial Planet Finder is launched.
You see, so we have a special satellite being launched to look for planets in outer space.
But that's not till later this decade.
The newly discovered Jovian-like world, the one they have identified, takes about 13 years to revolve around its parent star, compared with almost 12 years for Jupiter's journey around the Sun.
So, it's a very similar planet.
Of course, we found it because it was big.
But, you know, it makes absolute sense.
There would be smaller worlds, size of Earth, size of Mars, going around the Sun like ours.
Hey folks, we're talking about the possibility here of a lot of things.
You know, like water, air, even air, some sort of atmosphere, and definitely the possibility of some kind of life.
And by the way, last night we had Dr. Carl Bonn, And you've got to admit, he was a pretty staunch creationist, right?
Tonight, you get whiplash.
Hank Wesselman will be here.
He's an anthropologist, and somehow, I doubt seriously, he would embrace quickly the concept that Earth, and man, and all that is, has only existed for 6,000 years.
So, this will be a little bit of whiplash for you.
But this is going to be extremely interesting.
He's spent a lot of time in altered states on purpose.
In Nigeria, for example, he spent some time in altered states.
He's going to be talking about a lot of things here, a lot of things tonight, and I think it's going to be very interesting.
In stark contrast, To last night's fascinating program, you know, there is one thing about last night.
I, you know, I'm not a creationist, at least my idea of creation is that God's hand caused the lightning bolt to hit the soup that caused the life to begin.
That's how I believe in creation, and I think that You know, you're hearing what I believe right now, but I think that some of what's in Genesis is metaphoric.
I don't take it that literally.
I think it's metaphoric.
Do I think there's a Creator, or whatever you want to call God?
You bet I do.
Sure I do.
But I don't take it that literally, and I think that a God would be able to act in extremely subtle ways.
As we consider the matter of creation, I mean... Big Bang, probably.
You know, but that would be a very God-like thing to do, the Big Bang, right?
As I said last night, it seems to me that's a place that people like last night's guest and theoretical physicists, or some of them anyway, could come together.
Because they sure don't understand that instant of creation from nothing.
What we would call nothing.
Something smaller than a quark becoming all that is now, you know, that's a that's a leap of faith So it seems to me these different believers could get together in that area and We could agree that there are certain timelines.
It seems scientifically sound that don't meet up with the 6,000 year criterion, right?
But nevertheless that doesn't mean it's not the hand of God and You know, I don't take the days as literal.
For example, God created Earth.
You know, all that is, went through the various steps, right?
Six days.
Six Earth days.
It says six days, but that could be easily metaphorical, and could be God has a lot more days than that.
Could be a million years to one day, right?
Or any other combination thereof, so...
So I kind of believe in both.
I believe in a creator.
I think I believe in the Big Bang and most of the solid science about our past.
In fact, there's probably a whole lot more science that, frankly, has either A, been covered up, or B, has not been uncovered yet, depending on how you want to believe it, that we've been around before many times, perhaps, and that Our civilization is but one in a long train of them.
I don't know.
But it's good to think about this stuff.
It does your brain good to think about this stuff.
You've got to get to my website to hear this audio clip.
My God, it's a riot.
She's got something that moves my soul And she knows I'd love to love her
But she lets me down every time Can't make her mine
She's no one's lover tonight With me she'll be so inviting
I want her all for myself Oh, temptation eyes
Looking through my, my, my soul Oh, temptation eyes
You've got to love me You've got to love me
It's so dark, it's raining in the positive meantime South of the river you're stopping your whole everything
A band is blowing Dixie, double ball time You feel alright when you hear the music ring
But now you step inside but you don't see too many faces Coming in out of the rain you hear the jazz go down
Competition in other places But the horns be blowing that sound
Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-9-4-3-4-3-4
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
You know, Eisenhower said, beware the military-industrial complex, right?
Well, I think Greer is right on the money here.
You're gonna want to read this article.
It's entitled, Cosmic Deception, Let the Citizen Beware, by Dr. Stephen M. Greer.
I recommend it's reading.
Really, I do.
This is one bright guy, and I think he's probably really on to something here.
You might want to take a look at this.
Read the whole thing.
Take, you know, the minutes required to read the whole thing.
The concept, though, is...
I'd love to get a reaction from any of you out there who listened to this audio clip.
I'm telling you right now, listen to me now.
You're having a bad day.
If things have been going wrong for you, Pookie, and you're in a down mood, all you do is go to my website and you listen to this little thing called audio, a comedy, a little comedy clip.
Oh my god, it's funny.
Okay.
Here we go to the phone lines and the true unknown out there in the nighttime.
Let us go here first.
First time caller line, logically, you're on the air.
Hello.
Art.
Yes.
Yeah, this is almost a godsend just to be able to speak to you.
I mean, I'm not a real long-time listener.
It's been like maybe about seven months.
I had a friend, he sort of turned me on and he said, you need to listen to this guy because you're crazy.
And I said, no I'm not, but I've been listening to you and you're just really super.
Don't rule that out.
We have crazy people listening, there's no doubt about it.
But you know, they're welcome.
They're absolutely welcome.
I get you on 55 KRC Cincinnati, it's like a sister station to 700 WLW.
Where are you actually?
I'm in Mason, Ohio, like 22 miles from Cincinnati.
All right, well, they just, man, they were just banging.
Well, you know, you come through here like gangbusters.
Everybody loves you here.
Good, anyway, what's up?
What it is, I listened just a few months ago about this shadow people thing you was talking about.
Yes, sir.
And, uh, I thought that was a joke.
Did you?
Did you?
I listened to that.
I drive a semi truck.
Listen to me.
Listen to me.
It's not a joke.
Trust me.
It's not a joke.
I know it is not.
And let me tell you why it's not a joke.
Huh?
I drive a semi truck.
I have for 30 years.
Uh, I'm like 56 years old.
I'm not insane.
Uh, I blew the radiator out of my, out of my Subaru car.
I went over to the junkyard, which belongs to, you know, which belongs to a friend of mine.
Well, he said, well, just go out there in the yard and, and, uh, and see if you can find one.
I went out there and I walked through the junk cars and I looked, you know, I finally found what I needed, but I didn't have, I knew I didn't have the tools to get it out.
So I had to go back to the house and get the tools.
When I came back, it was like getting late in the afternoon.
So I went out there, I started taking the radiator out, and about maybe 75 to 80, maybe even 100 feet away from me, it was just starting to get pitch dark, and then I seen like a glow out in the, you know, just out in the junkyard.
I said, what is that?
You know, so I eased over there, got a little bit closer, and you could like see the, it's like, the glow was like if you, You take those little teeny things, you know those little rods you break into and they put a light out?
Yes.
Light sticks.
Yeah, that's about what the light was.
It wasn't real bright.
It was like a light stick or something.
How do you get from a light stick to a shadow person?
Well, I'll tell you how.
When I got up there, there was like two figures.
I mean, there's not... It's like not solid figures.
Okay.
It's like you could actually see through them.
But you could tell they were like two figures.
Yes.
You know, I looked at that and it... I mean, other than, you know, just blowing my mind, I said, what is this, you know?
What did you do?
When I got up closer, it just faded away.
Well, congratulations, sir.
You have had an experience.
Okay, then.
Well, that...
That was enough to set me off, you know.
So, I go back.
I try to get the radiator out.
I keep looking over there.
I don't get that light anymore.
So then the next day, I come back to finish getting the radiator out.
And I said, what was that?
Why was it that late in the afternoon that I seen this, you know?
Yes, and?
So, I came back when it was getting darker.
And there was that glow again at the same car.
Okay, I'll walk away.
It's the same car.
The same, the same car.
And?
And did you encounter, okay, did you encounter these beings again?
Yes.
Um, he was like a girl was sitting in the passenger seat.
She had like shoulder-length hair, but you can like see through her heart.
Yeah.
And the guy, he was sitting there and he was like sitting in the driver's seat.
He wasn't really doing no movement at all.
Alright, the way I'm going to rule this then is, you've got to imagine, you say shadow people, maybe.
You know, it's just a phrase, it's a word, and the paranormal encompasses so many things that he might have been seeing ghosts just as easily.
In a wreck yard, you'd have a lot of cars that were in accidents.
You'd have a lot of people who would have died in those cars unexpectedly and with no notice whatsoever who might not even know they're dead.
So that could as easily be what you saw, but either way, welcome to the club.
You've had an experience that obviously you're not going to be able to explain.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
Hello.
Hello?
Yes, hello.
Hi, Mr. Bell.
Hello.
I'm an actual prophet.
You are a prophet?
Yes sir.
I can tell you...
The mechanics of how the paranormal actually works.
And if I may be so bold, sir, to solve one problem... That is pretty bold, actually.
You know, the claim is fairly bold.
That you can answer all the questions about the paranormal.
Not all, because I'm still in consultation with the Almighty.
But I can give you the mechanics.
If, sir, may I solve one problem?
Wait a minute.
Let me understand.
I have listeners.
Anyway, I want to understand.
You're saying you're in contact with God.
Yes, sir.
And you can't be sure?
Well, okay, I hear you.
God is explaining all of this to you personally?
Yes, sir.
Okay, then I have a couple of questions for you.
Certainly.
Okay.
What are shadow people?
Well, shadow people are a condition of a lack of spiritual spirit, meaning what you actually do.
what God prescribes that you do for him, like feeding people, giving clothes to the nude,
to uh...
Giving clothes to the nude?
To the people who need clothing.
I would give clothes to the nude.
People who need food, people who need water, shelter.
In other words, being a very giving person, right?
Specifically the charities that are outlined by Jesus in the New Testament.
Does he actually outline them?
I mean, like the Red Cross?
Yes, he does.
Really?
Yes, he does.
He says, for these things that you do for the least of my brethren, meaning sisters too, you do for him.
Alright, so then obviously the man is suggesting, the prophet, excuse me, is suggesting that those who do not clothe the nude, and the rest of it, Are bound here on Earth as mere shadows of what they were lurking near the place of their death.
Sheesh.
You better get out there and start doing some good stuff, folks.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello.
Art?
Yes.
I'm Paul in District Heights, Maryland.
Yes, Paul.
570 AM.
Yes, glad to have you.
Thanks.
Uh, the lady who was on the other night, was her name Linda... Leader?
Oh, uh, Nancy Leader.
Nancy Leader.
It was Nancy Leader.
Uh, she talked about Planet X. Uh, that's correct, yes.
Um, I'm gonna do, we're gonna do a show on that Friday, I think.
Uh, yeah.
At least partially.
Yeah.
I can't resist.
How did she get her information about Planet X?
Um... From aliens?
That's exactly what she says, yes.
I heard her say the Zetans.
Zeta Reticula.
The aliens from that planet's system.
Like physically or channeled?
Physically.
I see.
Well, she matches up with like Mark Hazelwood.
Yeah, she does.
But she's a little bit nutty in the sense that she was almost gleeful that all this destruction is coming.
I'm not sure that I'd use the word gleeful.
I would say zest-filled presentation.
Art, in your book, The Source, could you... sometimes it would be great to have people talk about your books.
Well, the whole concept, alright sir, the whole concept of The Source is that there is one... or The Source's conclusion is that there is one single thing that would actually and will eventually account for all things that are paranormal.
One source of all of this and we're just seeing many variations of the same thing.
I think that may be absolutely true.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello.
Hello?
Yes, hi.
Um, hi.
Uh, yeah, I live in Redding.
Redding, California?
Okay.
And I was just curious, what is this I hear about the Redding Ripple?
The Redding Ripple?
Yeah.
Well, uh, let's do it the other way around.
What have you heard about the Redding Ripple?
Oh, nothing much.
Yeah, but obviously something.
I mean, you wouldn't have even heard the phrase unless you knew something about the Redding Ripple.
I heard it was like a fault or something.
I don't know.
A fault?
Stories.
There are some who believe it's a geomagnetic anomalous location where, well, all kinds of things occur.
I mean, it's the Redding ripple.
It's hard to put into words.
But it's there.
OK.
All right.
OK.
Thanks.
You're very welcome.
You see, the truth is, there is absolutely no such thing as a Redding Ripple.
I used to have this gal, uh, I called her Tin, and she called the show, and I haven't heard from Tin in a long time, and she's, she'd call from Redding, you know, as often as she could get through, and she was a real kick, and so I started telling her as a joke about the Redding, this place called the Redding Ripple.
My God, you don't know about the Redding Ripple?
Well, now you can see How these things get started.
There is a belief system in this country now and little whispers and emails that go back and forth about the Redding Ripple.
The Redding Ripple was ripped from my mind in one second of conversation with this girl.
That's where the Redding Ripple came from.
But by the time I'm well gone, I'm sure the Redding Ripple stories will include fire-breathing dragons, Dead bodies and God knows what else back in these times.
For a first time caller line, you're on the air if you turn your radio off.
Hello there.
Hello there, wildcard line, you're on the air.
Hey, how you doing?
I'm okay, sir.
How are you?
Oh, pretty good.
I just wanted to give a quick shout out to your channels on FNET.
I'm sorry, to my what?
Your channels on FNET.
Oh, FNet, yes.
It's the channel that, you know, for your program.
Yes, where people go and gather and rip each other's skin off, right?
That's correct.
These Internet chat places, they are brutal.
Absolutely brutal.
People are not good to each other, sir.
Well, actually, I understand that.
The main reason I call it is, I know earlier you were talking about, you know, other planets that were found.
Yes.
Well, now be a little careful here.
I read the story a little while ago.
And what CNN is saying and reporting on is that they have found A system similar to ours with a high likelihood, it's a Sun like ours, they found a larger planet and if there's a planet about our size, about that far from the Sun, then we could begin to imagine that might, that would be called an Earth-like planet where, you know, things like life could spring up.
Things like, well, who knows what might spring up, given water and air and volcanic conditions and atmosphere and, you know, all just the right soup and you never know.
Okay.
Okay?
Thanks.
Thank you.
So I'm glad you noted that story, yeah.
Earth-like planets.
Now, in last night's discussion, it was clearly suggested by my guest that if there is any life anywhere else, any other planets, that it came from here.
And it did so in the last 6,000 years.
And if there is microbial life found on Mars, It will have been from here, from something crashing into Earth, causing a rock to go to Mars to start life, because life could only come from here, because God only put it here.
Nowhere else.
All that wasted space out there.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello.
Hi there, this is Jerry from Cincinnati, Ohio.
Hello, Jerry.
How's it going?
It's going.
That's good.
It's wonderful to hear you.
Thank you.
I wanted to ask about, you know, the Dr. Carl Edwards we're on there.
Uh, last night?
Yeah.
Yes, Dr. Ball.
Ball.
How do you spell his last name?
B-A-U-G-H.
B-A-U-G-H?
Right.
Okay, because he had a book out, too, I think.
Uh, he has several.
Oh, several?
Yes.
Okay, I can get them probably in the library, then, can't I?
Uh, indeed.
Okay, you know, I was going to ask, and I couldn't get through, and maybe if you had anyone again... Well, just go ahead and ask.
I kind of have an idea of the way he thinks.
What would you ask?
Okay, you know, in Genesis says, Uh, God said, let us make man in our own image?
Yes.
But then in the next verse, he said, well... I don't think it was plural.
Oh, wasn't it?
No, there's only one God.
That's what I think.
Yeah.
You know, and I'm saying, well, why would he have said it that other way, you know?
It's a good point.
I don't think it says, it doesn't really say it that way.
Yeah.
Our image?
Right.
That word?
And then it turns out you decided to make God in my own image.
In my own image?
Yeah.
That's a little different.
Alright, thank you very much.
So, sure.
That's right.
Maybe we resemble the way God thinks of himself.
Now, you don't think of God with a physical body, right?
But maybe when he thought of himself with a physical body, he thought, hmm.
Let me create this.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Hi, turn your radio off and proceed.
Where are you?
I'm in Boise, Idaho.
And you're obviously on a cell phone, probably even in a truck.
That's right.
Wild stab there.
That's T on KFI AM 640.
Oh, what a monster.
Yes, it is.
I was calling about the other night.
You were talking about our last night, about the guy in Hagerman, Idaho with the cow mutilation.
Uh, cattle mutilation, sir.
Yeah.
Yes, yes.
And about that time, um, I drive from between Boise and Pocatello, Idaho every night, and about at that, that month, that time frame, um, I saw some, there were like lights, not lights, there were light beams up in the sky, like, you know, about where the planes would fly, and they went straight up, and there was four of them.
And they stood out like a sore thumb, and it was the damnedest thing I've ever seen.
Well, let me tell you something.
I'll tell you something.
That whole area out there, Utah, Oregon, Idaho, it's going berserk right now.
I talked to, I'll tell you, I talked to two major researchers today, Linda Moulton Howe and Colm Callagher Nids.
I talked to both of them today, and I'm waiting to hear from this farmer.
I really want to hear from this farmer.
If this farmer would be so kind as to contact me, I'm not going to turn over his email address until I have his permission to do so.
You know, he indicated he doesn't want a big deal for his family.
The guy runs a farm.
You know, he doesn't want a circus and you can't blame him.
But both of these Entities, uh, Linda Malthow and, and, uh, and is in Las Vegas contacted me.
So if this farmer would be so kind as to please, it wasn't a very wild encounter, no question.
If you would please be kind enough to contact me by email with your phone number, I will chat with you first.
And if you want to come on the air, fine.
If you don't, fine.
If you want to talk to an investigator, just say the word and I can pass your info along.
I just didn't want to do it, uh, Without your permission, seeing as how you sort of feel as though you would like to maintain your privacy and not risk a circus.
And believe me, believe me, I understand that.
That's going to be true of most people reporting this kind of thing.
I mean, put yourself in their position.
They're a farmer.
They have work to do out in the field every day.
Do they need reporters and tourists?
Uh, trampling their fields and trying to get stories.
They sure don't.
They don't care about that kind of stuff.
They care about plowing fields, getting crop yields, and lots of things that we don't think about.
That's what they care about.
So, a lot of times, these sources don't want to come forward.
And honestly, you can't blame them.
So the offer's out there on the table.
Want to contact me?
I've got people who want to talk to you, sir.
Including me.
On the air?
Off the air?
I'll just simply put you in contact with the investigative agencies that won't cause you any trouble.
That would be Linda or Nids or both.
And we'll see what we can find out for you.
Pretty strange story, though.
All right, we're gonna break, and then we've got a guest coming up at the top of the hour.
I'm Art Bell and from the high desert this is Coast to Coast AM.
I'm here at the head man's house. He knows damn well he hasn't seen it. Have you been?
I'm a man who's been through the moon and stars. Where am I to go now that I've fallen too far?
You were young girl when the bullet hit the phone.
To recharge Bell in the Kingdom of Nye, from west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First-time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
1-800-825-5033. First time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222 or use the wildcard line
at 1-775-727-1295. To rechart on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator
and have them dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
That would be me.
Good morning, everybody.
This is going to be very interesting.
Coming up, Hank Wesselman, PhD, anthropologist.
He lived among the Yoruba peoples of Nigeria for two years as a Peace Corps volunteer in the 1960s.
When he came back, he did his doctoral work at UC Berkeley, studying paleontology, geology, and archaeology, as well as anthropology.
And for the last 30 years, he has conducted field research with an international group of scientists investigating the mystery of human origins.
Where we came from, frequent topic here, right?
Out east, Africa's great rift valley, this has allowed him to spend much of his life with traditional indigenous peoples in remote areas seldom, if ever, visited by outsiders.
Can you imagine doing that, going into an area where they've never seen anybody from any place else?
That would be something.
In the early 1970s, while doing fieldwork in southern Ethiopia, he began to experience spontaneous Extraordinary expanded states of awareness similar to those of traditional shamans.
In an attempt to understand he went beyond scholarly research into direct personal contact with the ancient methods practiced by tribal people for achieving altered states of consciousness.
Which probably means he did weird plants.
His investigations into the shamanic world Based on his own direct experiences have been recorded in his book, Spirit Walker, Messages from the Future, 1995, Medicine Maker, Mystic Encounters on the Shaman's Path, and Vision Seeker, Shared Wisdom from the Place of Refuge.
Dr. Hank, I guess he likes to be called, has also taught anthropology at the University of California at San Diego, the University of Hawaii at Hilo, And currently offers classes in American River College and Sierra College in Northern California.
This should be an interesting contrast to last night's program.
Okay, here is Hank Wesselman.
Hank, doctor, welcome back.
Good evening, Art.
We did do another program.
How long ago was that?
On January the 15th, as I recall.
January 15th.
Yeah, and I did one with Barbara, I think, back on November the 1st.
Oh, good.
All right.
Pleasure to be on once again.
Good.
Good to have you.
Let me try something out on you first, and I want just a brutally honest answer.
With your background, if you were to encounter somebody who was very literate and very literal And believed absolutely, and in fact would lay down scientific evidence to support his claims, that everything we are, the sun, the moon, the stars, the planets around them, everything we can see out to 15 billion years, whatever the latest figure is today, everything, including human beings, were created 6,000 years ago.
Not billions, but 6,000.
How would that strike you?
I'm with you.
Well, let me tell you a fun story.
In the summer of 2000, I was in Addis Ababa in Ethiopia doing research, and when I got on a plane to come home, I ended up sitting next to a creationist Christian missionary.
Really?
Yeah.
And so he believed roughly that?
He believed roughly that.
Must have been some flight.
We hadn't really fastened our seatbelts before he began to lay his trip on me.
Big mistake.
Well, you know, by the time I was done with him, he was...
And where was the plane from where to where?
It was from Arizalva to Newark, New Jersey.
Oh, man, you gotta... Oh, my... Oh, my God, you could convert a man in a flight like that.
Eighteen hours.
Eighteen hours, yeah.
Eighteen hours.
You know, and... You just don't let him sleep.
I mean, you keep hitting him with scientific facts.
Well, it was an interesting experience, you know.
One of the first things I did is I got into my knapsack and I hauled out this big chunk of fossil wood and put it in his hands.
Uh-huh.
And I said, now, this is a piece of a tree that was around about five and a half million years ago.
What do you think of this?
And it's very difficult, you know, when you put the evidence right in somebody's hand for them to say that it doesn't exist.
Okay, well let me be him for a second, alright?
Okay.
I'll be him.
Well, you say it's how many billion years?
About five million years.
Okay, well you say that, but you know, how the hell do you really know?
I mean, what is it?
You're carbon dating?
We don't trust carbon dating.
Permanent dating is really wrong.
That's how I'd come back at you.
Really?
Well, I actually explained to him the fine points of potassium argon dating.
And this is a very interesting way of dating fossil rocks.
You have these fossils which are interred between volcanic layers of sediment.
Right.
Ashes that have been belched out of a volcano sometime in the remote past.
Right.
And when these volcanic ashes are projected out of a volcano, they contain a radioactive isotope of potassium called Potassium-40.
Which decays at a predictable rate.
Rate.
Into argon.
Now, argon's a gas, and so it gets trapped inside the crystals of the lava or the feldspars or the glass, the volcanic glass, so the argon can't escape.
So what you can do is you can bring back these rock samples to the United States or to Europe, and you can subject them to an unnatural act in a laboratory, if you're with me.
And you can release the argon gas in a vacuum tube, which is sterilized, so to speak, without having any atmospheric argon in it.
And you can convert the, you know, amount of argon gas that is released into a statistical measure of time that tells you exactly when that lava flow or those feldspars or that pumice was belt shut up a volcano in the past.
Well, what if I say to you, well, suppose the argon gas got there in some manner other than what you have described.
Are you saying that's impossible?
Well, what you do is you put the rocks in a tube and then you Vacuumize it, so to speak.
You suck all the atmosphere out of the tube.
Right.
And then you burn off any atmospheric argon with a laser, and then you finally vaporize the crystal with the laser itself, releasing the gas.
And this way you prevent contamination.
I think I understand the process, but what I'm asking again directly is... How do you convince somebody who doesn't believe this?
No, what I'm asking is, how do you know that the argon gas didn't get in that rock through some process other than that which you're describing?
Ah, because what you're doing is you're vaporizing the crystal and you're releasing the gas which is inside the crystal itself, not on the outside.
It's a way of preventing contamination.
It's very exact science now.
But what I don't understand is how you could be sure that... I mean, you described the process that gets to argon gas, but what if the argon gas got there through some other process?
Is that possible?
Well, what you do is you step-heat the crystal, so you burn off any contaminating argon.
I understand that.
But I'm saying the original argon got in the rock through some other process.
Well, it wouldn't because it's a particular isotope of argon, argon 40, which stems from potassium 40, which is breaking down through time.
And so this is the way in which a lot of rocks are dated.
Of course, there are other methods as well.
We have thermal luminescence now and fission track dating.
It's become a very exact science.
And in fact, the Spatiality Mark on Dating Method used to be useful only up to, you know, it really began about half a million years ago, so anything less than half a million years old was very difficult to date with it.
Since that time, folks at the Berkeley Geochronology Center have developed a very, very, I guess you could say it's almost like magic.
It's almost like alchemy, in which they can actually date rocks that came out of Vesuvius, which are only about 2,000 years old.
Using this method.
So this is, this is the way in which we actually find out how old fossils actually are.
Alright, so what did the guy on the airplane say to you?
Hold on, sorry, holding that in his hand, what did he say?
Well, he got progressively agitated.
And once I began to describe the kind of work I've been doing for the last 30 years or so, and the kind of fossils I've been working with, and the kinds of humans we're actually finding in this range of time between 4 and 5 million years ago, He actually became very disturbed.
Well, of course.
You know, I don't want to sound aggressive, but after about an hour and a half, two hours of my talking to him, he got so upset he went back to the bathroom and he spent a good deal of the flight in the bathroom.
He gave me a lot of free reading time.
I shouldn't be laughing at that.
I felt badly afterwards because he was emotionally very upset.
Of course he was.
It kind of took his belief system apart.
You know, that's a very serious affair, ripping apart somebody's belief system.
Well, it just sort of happens.
You know, if he hadn't sat down and laid his number on me before he even got off the ground... Then you wouldn't have responded.
I understand it was only defense, self-defense.
Yeah.
So you can... We're actually involved in some extraordinary stuff, Art.
We have found a very early kind of human.
In 94-95, a professor at Berkeley named Tim White, somebody I've known for, oh, the best part of 25 years, He invited me to go into the field with his expedition in
northeastern Ethiopia, in the middle Awash region, where he had a series of deposits
which at that time were known to date to around, you know, four and a half to five
million years old.
We're now back to almost six.
Wow.
And this was a very interesting site in the sense that it preserved the fossilized remains
of creatures like baboons and colobus monkeys and carnivores and herbivores.
You did just say back six million years?
Yeah.
Gee, that'd be about, let's say, one day to equal one million dollars.
One million dollars?
One day to equal one million years for God.
I think you could say that.
Of course, it all goes back to around a billion and a half now in terms of the life record.
I just noted that you were near that six million year mark.
Well, the reason it's interesting is that the biomolecular type people have revealed that in studying human DNA and comparing it to the DNA of chimpanzees, the DNA of monkeys, the DNA of guinea pigs, of zebras and giraffes and so forth and so on, they revealed about 30 years ago that human beings and the African apes are very, very closely related.
In fact, we share about 98.5% of our DNA.
And in studying things like hemoglobin and so forth and so on, it was possible to determine that humans and apes must have shared a common ancestor.
Well, here's a question.
Maybe as recently as six million years ago, maybe as old as eight million years ago, but it's in its magic time.
Okay, well here's a question for you then.
When I hear people say the kinds of things you're saying right now, usually, you know, we end up comparing the way apes act and think and are able to, you know, they can do sign language and stuff.
It's really amazing what they can do.
But we compare them to humans.
I wonder, Uh, with all that shared genetic material, what do humans do that's really, really ape-like?
Well, we do a lot of things that are ape-like.
Do we?
We do.
You know, in the classes that I teach in anthropology, I often show Jane Goodall's videos, and most of us have seen them at one time or another.
You bet.
And it's quite shocking to my students, you know, when they start seeing these chimpanzees who are doing things like us, and they suddenly realize, That they're not doing things like us, we do things like them.
And a lot of our human behavior, which we think of as uniquely human, is actually ape behavior, especially the gestural stuff.
Like when a big fight will break out between the chimpanzee males, and you'll see a mother comforting her child by holding it and patting it, and then after the fight is over, you know, the chimpanzees embrace each other, they kiss each other to try to reassure each other that now, you know, the violence has stopped, you know, everything's cool.
And all of these reassurance gestures We think of them as being uniquely human, but in fact, they're actually ape gestures.
Then, if all of that really is true, what right do we have to experiment on?
That's a good question.
And of course, it's one of the foremost questions involved with ethics in the science that I'm working in right now.
But I mean, they are like the closest thing to human, so they're the biggest target for really serious experimentation, right?
You bet.
I mean, it's one of the reasons we missed thalidomide years ago.
You know, if you use thalidomide on rats, it doesn't do anything to them.
But if you use it on monkeys, they're born without arms.
Nobody thought to use it on monkeys.
And nobody ever did that?
No.
Not until it was too late.
Well, that's, you know, that's the argument for using them, isn't it?
Or is it?
Well, it's a big problem.
You know, there's a large population of chimpanzees upon whom a lot of experimentation has been done, and a lot of them were deliberately infected with AIDS to see if we could figure out how to cure AIDS.
And now we've got this population of chimpanzees infected with AIDS, and what are we going to do with them?
I don't know.
What are we doing?
Well, it's an ethical dilemma.
It's an ethical dilemma.
Out of curiosity, do you know how many we have infected with AIDS?
Oh, gosh, you know, I don't really know.
Even a guess?
One of those sad stories where you don't like to go.
Ten, a hundred, a thousand?
I wouldn't say a thousand, but I would say it's probably, you know, somewhere less than a hundred.
You know, chimpanzees are not all that available for scientific research because they're very, very expensive.
Yeah, sure.
Less than a hundred, but that's still a lot that we've done, isn't it?
Yeah, one of the interesting things about this early kind of human, see, that we're finding in this range of time, around four and a half to six million years ago, is it looks like a hybrid or a cross between chimpanzees and humans.
In other words, this thing may very well be the famous missing link that Charles Darwin predicted we would eventually find.
Really?
The link between humans and apes.
Really?
Yes.
In fact, later this year, probably, maybe late 2002, early 2003, there will most likely be a major suite of papers published in either Science or Nature, the two major scientific publications, describing about 50% of a skeleton, which was found while I was in the field in 1994-95.
Yes.
And this is one of the major, major, major discoveries of the century.
This skeleton is about a million and a half years older than Lucy.
And it really looks like something which is half-ape, half-human in many ways.
Now, I can't say too much more about it than that at this point, because... Are we ever going... Yeah, I understand.
I appreciate the heads up, but... Do you think we'll ever be able to scientifically nail down the entire transition?
From ape to man.
Will we ever get there?
Is there enough evidence in the ground, or enough anthropologists to go find it, or archaeologists to dig it out?
You know, will we ever prove it?
I think we will.
I think we will, and I think this particular fossil creature, which is called Ardipithecus, it's not called Australopithecus, it's the ancestor of Australopithecus.
This is Ardipithecus ramidus.
Um, this thing is pretty damn close to what we would think of as being the missing link.
How much, how much time, uh, Professor, does the, uh, the missing link, uh, have to account for?
How much time are we talking about when we talk about the missing link?
How many years are missing?
Well, what we're really talking about is the link between apes and humans.
What we're looking for is a transitional form, which still exhibits those primitive characteristics of apeness, while showing those physical features that reveal that it's moving towards something which is human-like.
And that seems to be what we've found.
How many years, do you think?
Well, this fossil creature seems to have lived.
Between about six million years ago and about four and a half to four million years ago, when we get a more advanced form appearing, a form which Meve Leakey, Richard Leakey's wife, has found actually in Kenya, somewhat to the south of where we are.
Right.
It looks like the descendant of Ardipithecus, although not everybody would agree with that.
You know, if we were to get ten of my colleagues and get them together in a room, And ask them all the same question, we would probably get at least 11 different answers, 11 different opinions, based on the same scientific evidence.
Alright, listen, hold on.
Yes, I'm sure that's absolutely true, and that's why, well, that's why guests like last night, their opinion fits in there with one of those.
Oh, I can't take another heartache.
Oh, you say you're my friend.
I'm at my wit's end.
You say your love is bonafide, but I don't call it sight.
Well, the things that you do, and when I ask you to be nice, you say, you gotta be cruel to be kind.
In my life measure, cruel to be kind, that's a very good sign
I remember, don't worry How could I ever kiss the first time?
Bye.
The last time we ever met.
But I know the reason why you keep your silence up.
No, you don't believe.
The hurt doesn't show.
But the pain still grows, so forget the you and me.
I'm the weirdo coming in at night.
Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nigh from west of the Rockies at 1-800-9-4.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
Call 1-800-825-5033.
First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
Hey everybody, they're rockin' and rollin' in Tokyo.
A strong earthquake jolted Japan's capital Friday.
There were no reports of serious damage, but one man was injured by a falling chandelier.
The quake with a preliminary magnitude of 5.2 was strong enough to sway tall buildings in Tokyo and caused a temporary halt to express train service in Tokyo.
That would have been something.
So, all the people over there for World Cup got a little taste of the Ring of Fire.
Okay, we will continue that quake just occurring.
We will continue with our guest, Dr. Hank Wesselman, in just a moment.
Stay right there.
Ha ha!
You know, if I heard a sound like that in the middle of the night, I'd probably grab a gun.
Back to our guest, Professor Wesselman.
This is a question, or more, I guess, a statement from Bill in Illinois, who says, of you, another godless scientist who can only guess at evolution, but at the same time states these myths as fact.
Hey, it sounds very strong, doesn't it?
I thought so.
Well, you know...
Listen, I'm with you.
The science is pretty hard and, you know, it does appear that's the way it was.
It really does appear that way. I don't see how it can be denied.
You know, but I mean, you can't tamper with faith there, on the other hand.
Well, you can, I guess, if you have an 18-hour plane flight.
All right, look, we came here to talk about other things anyway, and so I have a series of questions.
One about transformational community.
What's a transformational community, and what is that?
Well, you know, there's something very interesting going on in Western society.
There's a general awakening.
You could call it a spiritual awakening, which is happening among a very disparate group of people.
These are people who are found in every walk of life, in every community.
You could call it a cultural revitalization movement, in which a large number of people are aware of the fact that our old story isn't working so well anymore, and that we need to write a new story.
Yeah.
Published by Paul Ray and Sherry Anderson, which has been called the Cultural Creatives.
I don't know if you've ever had Paul and Sherry on.
No, I have not.
It's a very interesting book, and it reveals the size of this transformational community.
They're sometimes called the Modern Mystical Movement, the Cultural Creatives, the Transformational Community, because we're essentially bridging between what was into what's coming into being now.
If Ray and Anderson have their demographics right, and there's no reason to suppose they wouldn't because this study was based on 14 years of sociological survey, there are about 50 million people in the United States alone and about 80 to 90 million people in Europe who fall into this category.
These are people, for example, who believe in the existence of alternate realities.
And I know that a lot of your guests like to talk about these alternate realities.
You bet.
These are folks that believe in the existence of spirits.
Yes.
The spirit helpers and spirit teachers, which are so familiar to traditional indigenous people.
Yes.
And interestingly, Jesus of Nazareth is seen as an important spiritual teacher, whether or not the individual is psychologically Christian.
I know.
These are folks who believe that it's possible for people to learn how to go into these alternate realities, whether through hallucinogenic plants or through physiological and psychological techniques which were pioneered, essentially, by indigenous people.
Like the sweat lodge.
Right.
These are folks that believe in the existence of an underlying field of power that connects everything, everywhere.
And I think this was really The great success of the Star Wars films 20 years ago.
You know, all of us out there really understood that the Force is real.
And that that would be a good way to describe this underlying field of power.
The Force is real.
Yes, it is.
It was actually a concept that was... It may have formed the threshold for all religious awareness.
This was proposed almost a hundred years ago by an anthropologist named Moret.
he called this belief animatism the belief in an impersonal supernatural power or force
i actually believe this force that you and i are talking about right now is
stronger than uh... nuclear power it is the strongest force in the
universe yes it is
it is and you know belief in the existence of this power is one
of the signatures of the consciousness age
in which were you know living right now the difference between us and indigenous people is that we
believe in the existence of this power
whereas for an indigenous tribal person it's a it's unknown
it's a known experience because they know how to connect with it how to
Alright, well you've gone into areas, Professor, where others have not been before.
I mean, you have met people who have not met other people, certainly not like yourself.
You know, first contact kind of stuff.
I would really like to understand a little bit of what that's like to have first contact with people who have never had contact with the outside world.
What things do you find?
I mean, do you find civilized behavior?
Do you find organized behavior?
Do you find monogamy?
Do you find religion?
What do you find and how do you find it out?
When you walk into a village, a remote village, how do you start out?
Well, this is very interesting.
You know, I grew up in New York City, and when I went into the Peace Corps in 1964, I went in because when I got out of college, I went to the University of Colorado at Boulder as an undergraduate.
When I got out of college, I didn't know what I was going to do with my life, but going to Southeast Asia and shooting people was not high on my list of priorities.
So I went into alternative service, into the Peace Corps.
I was in a training program at UCLA where they tried to prepare us for this experience.
They gave us a lot of anthropology, a lot of cross-cultural stuff.
They trained us in several different languages.
Nigeria is a very diverse country, tribally.
There are over 200 languages spoken in that country.
Oh, brother.
So I was trained in the Hausa language and in the Yoruba language.
And, you know, three months later, I found myself on a Pan Am flight, puddle-jumping across Africa.
And when we arrived in Lagos, which was the capital of Nigeria, it was night.
And I remember the plane sort of pulling into the airport.
And the doors hissed open, and a strange smell came into the plane.
It was the smell of the rainforest.
And it has a very peculiar odor because of the decomposition that occurs on the rainforest floor.
And I remember thinking, as I smelled this completely alien smell, and I watched the windows fogging up with humidity, I remember thinking to myself, Hank, what have you done?
Well, you know, Hank, I, on the other hand, landed in Southeast Asia and not shooting.
Thank you.
I was a medic in the Air Force.
But when you get off the airplane there, Hank, it's the same thing.
Exactly the same thing.
And it takes Um, as I recall, it took a few weeks to get used to it and then you don't smell it anymore.
Yeah, it's true.
Um, but, and that works for almost, it works for many destinations around the world.
You get off the plane and the entire, the whole atmosphere, it's totally different.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so I'm with you.
I've done it.
It's, it's, it's really interesting.
Well, among the Yorubas, now the Yorubas live in Western Nigeria.
And, you know, these people have had contact with outsiders since the missionaries arrived, so it wasn't so much that I met people there who had never met outsiders before.
Children, yes.
I mean, I had these wonderful experiences where I'd be in a market, and here'd be these market women, and they'd spot me, and they had a word in Yoruba for white people.
The word was oinbo.
Oinbo means peeled.
Peeled?
Peeled.
You know, if you take an onion and you peel it, it's white inside.
If you take a pig and you peel it, it's white inside because of the fat.
So we were simply peeled Africans.
That's what they called us, the peeled people.
I can see how they would form that view.
Yeah, well, I would have these market women who would be laughing, and they would drag this absolutely terrified child up to us.
And they would have told this child that we were spirits.
And these children would be looking at me with their eyes, you know, about six feet around.
And here'd be this athlete.
Just paroxysms of fear, and this woman laughing would sort of thrust this child into my arms.
This child would practically go rigid!
Just rigid!
Oh, nice mom.
Nice mom.
Yeah, nice mom.
Yeah.
You know, the Yorubas are very interesting because it's from those people that all the New World spiritist traditions like voodoo and kandomble and makumba and umbanda and santeria, they all come from Nigeria.
Well, short of santeria and voodoo, you've lost me.
I don't know about the others.
Well, they're found in Brazil.
They're found in Brazil, umbanda, kandomble, makumba, The very, very fast-growing religions, in which each African orisha, each African spirit, has a Catholic saint equivalent.
Really?
So when you're going to church and you're praying to the Virgin Mary, you're also praying to Yemanja, the goddess of the ocean.
Really?
Yeah, when you're praying to God in heaven, you're also praying to Obatala, the sky god.
It's a very interesting phenomena, you know.
The Christian saint, Saint Cyprian, the healing saint, he's syncretized with Omulu, the god of smallpox and contagious diseases.
This was a very interesting place to find myself.
At that time, I didn't know anything about this.
How did this happen?
I mean, is it that, you know, rice Christians came in and inculcated at some pastime, or did the best they could to inculcate what they could into these Nigerians, but it didn't quite take, and somehow they made the conversions which turned into the religion?
Is that what happened?
No, they actually did a great job.
And everyone in my town, the town that I lived in for the most of the time I was there was about 80,000 people.
Right.
Virtually everybody was either Christian or Muslim in that town.
Okay.
But when it came time for the planting or the harvest, Right.
everybody, Christians and Muslims alike, would go down to the sacred grove.
And that's when they'd get out the sacred wood carvings and the masks.
And they would invite the ancient spirits of the land to come and reside in those images
so they could dance them, so they could sacrifice to them.
Because everybody knew what would happen if you insulted the ancient spirits of the land.
You know, your harvest would be nothing.
Your children would die of starvation.
And so everybody, Christian and Muslim alike, were, you know, animists underneath that Christian or Muslim veneer.
Isn't that interesting?
Yeah.
But how did the mixture occur?
I mean, you gave me these equivalents.
How did that come to pass?
Well, that came to pass in the New World with the slave trade.
The slaves brought their religion from West Africa.
Okay.
And when the Catholics did their job on them in Brazil or Haiti, they simply merged these Christian saints with their African spirits.
Isn't that interesting?
Yes, it is.
It is, indeed.
And what's really interesting about it is that these spirits are real.
Once you've had direct experience with them, you know this with absolute certainty.
Well, I think spirits are real, period, would be another way to put it.
And so their spirits would be as real as our spirits, huh?
Well, I think so.
The difficulty for us as Westerners is that we don't grow up in a culture in which spirits are part of our experience reality on a day-to-day basis.
Well, I mean, we call it near-death experiences, right?
Oh, yes.
But I'm talking about, you know, that training that we get in childhood.
Yes.
Oh, that's true.
That's true.
You know, it's like your creationist who you had on last night.
You know, that's a worldview that he was talking about.
Uh, that came into being about 3,000 years ago in the Middle East, and it came into being among people who had a very, very small sense of geographic identity.
I mean, you know, when you think about the Judean people, they were very much like, um, goat herders or Bedouins in the desert, and they probably didn't travel more than about 100 miles in any one direction their entire lives.
So, for them, living in the desert, you know, the Garden of Eden with water and trees and plants.
You know, the ideal state, you know?
And this myth of Genesis was their way of trying to explain the great mystery of existence in ways which was meaningful to them culturally, but which they really couldn't nail down scientifically.
See, that worldview really doesn't serve us so well anymore.
It's come under fire.
Well, that's why I made a little joke about one of God's days in six million of our years.
You know, it still might all work together.
I'm not sure.
I don't deny a creative force there somewhere.
I just, you know, I think it could be hand-in-hand with the process of evolution.
I mean, God's hand could have said, all right, lightning bolt right there.
Right?
And so I don't deny the absolute possibility of creation at all.
I rather lean toward it, actually.
But in hand with evolution.
Well, you know, the Polynesians have a very interesting way of looking at this.
You know, you're talking to the anthropologist now.
The Polynesians have a word, a sacred word, which is spelled I-A-O.
I-A-O.
Yes.
I-A-O.
This is the sacred name.
And each one of those syllables has a meaning.
The syllable E, the I at the beginning, that's really symbolic of the creation.
There was a creative act and it only happened once.
And then ah, the letter A, that symbolizes or stands for the subdivision of the primordial stuff, the primordial stuff out of which everything is made, into the manifested world of time and space, matter and energy, awareness, consciousness, each of the other.
And the letter O, When the old function of the sacred name began to operate, it allowed humanity to create reality using divine power.
It's a very interesting way of looking at this.
Unfortunately, we live in a time in which human beings really seek power largely through the material world.
They've tended to neglect the spiritual dimension, which is all around us all the time.
Right.
And they've fallen away from what the Polynesians would call the balanced teachings of the guardians.
Now, in a mythic sense, the Polynesians believed that humanity originally came from across the universe and out of another dimension.
Really?
And that we came as seeds of light.
Seeds of light as individuals.
But we were accompanied by great spiritual guardians who knew the purpose of our destiny.
Seeds of light.
And our life path.
It's a very interesting myth.
And they believed that these seeds of light came to this star And specifically to this water planet, and that we descended and took up residence in primitive life forms, in which we then evolved and changed through time to become who and what we are today.
The Polynesians also believed that these guardians from other star systems, some of them embodied as well, so that they would be here when we were ready to learn the meaning of our fate and our existence and our destiny.
Can you personally rule that out as one possibility?
Well, now this is interesting to me because one of the things we talked about when I was on with you last January is I have developed a wonderful friendship in Hawaii with a Hawaiian elder and his wife and when my wife and I go out to Hawaii to do workshops and presentations very often we'll spend a day or two with these folks talking about just the sorts of things that you and I are talking about.
So I looked at the elder When we were discussing this one day, and I said to him, when did we come here to this planet?
And he didn't hesitate.
He said, 18 and a half million years ago.
Now, immediately the anthropologist kicks on, the paleontologist, and I think 18 and a half million.
That's early Miocene.
Who was around in the early Miocene?
Well, in fact, a very primitive kind of ape called the Dryopithecines were on the scene in Africa at that time.
They didn't look like apes look like today.
They looked more like monkeys, but they didn't have tails.
And they had a very distinctive dentition, which is distinctively ape rather than monkey.
So I thought to myself, gee, that's kind of neat.
You know, here you've got these primitive apes and you've got the descent of these seeds of light taking up residence in these primitive apes.
And eventually, of course, these apes evolved into the apes we have today, as well as all sorts of other Miocene apes.
And one of those lineages became human.
About six and a half million years ago, maybe seven million years ago.
Well, the seeds of light, you know, metaphorically, it's not a whole lot different than the obelisk, eh?
Well, it's true.
It's true.
What I was curious about is these guardians, because they said that the guardians embodied as well.
Now, if you look at the early Miocene, this is the time when the first modern whales appear.
Now, whales and primates actually go back to the Eocene, which is about 50 million years ago.
But here we have the first modern whales appearing in the early Miocene.
And when you think about it, the whales and the dolphins are the only creatures on this planet that have brains as big or larger than our own.
Dolphin brains are bigger, aren't they?
They are.
Nobody knows what they do with these huge brains.
But in Polynesia, the whales are known as the record keepers.
Might be the answer.
The answer might be not what we do.
Professor, hold on.
We're at the top of the hour.
And we are talking about time, aren't we?
Time, time, time.
Six thousand years ago, six million years ago.
18 million years ago.
I don't know.
I'm sorry.
time, time, time to see what's become of me. While I looked around in all my possibilities, I was the one.
My possibilities, I was so...
Some velvet morning when I'm straight. I'm gonna open up your gate.
I was so...
Some velvet morning when I'm straight I'm gonna open up your gate
And maybe tell you about the things that I've done.
And maybe tell you about the major up And how she gave me life
And how she made it in Some velvet morning when I'm straight
Flowers growing on our hill Dragonflies and cacophills
Learn from us very much Look at us but do not touch
Bedra is my name To reach Arkbell in the Kingdom of Nigh, from west of the
Rockies, dial 1- East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First-time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
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This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
Some guy sent me an email the other day that said that he went out, just because of the fact that I play this on the show, and he saw a horse named Phaedra in a race and, like, it came in at 30 to 1.
Something like that.
He won all kinds of money, and he wrote me this wonderful email thanking me.
You're very welcome, sir.
All right, Dr. Wilsonman, uh...
Welcome back.
Thank you.
You're very welcome.
All right.
What is an evolutionary sleeper?
That's something you've got in here, and that's, you know, right off on this evolution thing.
An evolutionary sleeper.
What do you know?
This all ties in with the strange books that I've written.
Back in the 1970s when I was out there in Ethiopia in the desert, 1972 to be exact, I began to have these spontaneous altered state experiences which were classic out-of-the-body experiences, but I had no idea what those things were in those days.
Why were you having those?
Were you spontaneously having these, or were you ingesting local indigenous growing things recommended by the peoples you were staying with?
Now this may sound really square, but believe it or not, I have never taken the big hallucinogens or the plant teachers, unlike my colleague Terence McKenna, who is an old friend of yours.
This deals with this evolutionary sleeper stuff.
If I've got this right, and I believe I do, there are large numbers of us in society at large who have some kind of program on our inner hard drive, our inner hard drive being our DNA, our genetic code, and each of us may in fact be some kind of holon containing within ourselves An extraordinary biological energetic program that can reveal who and what we may all become, as this human species we belong to continues its ascent toward the culmination of our evolution.
An ascent, you said, right?
Yeah.
Some people look at society today and see a de-evolutionary process going on, and you know, you could make that case.
The way in which this began for me is I began to have these out-of-the-body experiences in which I would find myself bumping along the bridgepole of my tent at night, and I would suddenly find myself on the ceiling of my tent, and I'd turn around and look down, and there would be my body asleep on the floor of the tent.
Now, to say I was disturbed would be an understatement of vast proportions.
I was really freaked, and I would find myself zipping back into my physical body.
This is not unlike what Robert Monroe wrote about in his book, Journeys Out of the Body.
One night, I went through the tent wall, and I found myself floating over the camp.
I could see all the tents.
I could see the soldiers patrolling at the fire pit.
I could see jackals digging up our garbage in the garbage pit and so forth and so on.
What about your diet, Doctor?
You didn't intentionally ingest anything indigenous and hallucinogenic, but what about your diet?
I mean, you had to be eating the local chow, right?
Good question.
You know, we brought all of our chow in from Nairobi, which was 600 miles to the south.
Really?
So we had a lot of canned food.
I don't know if you like canned food.
I'm not wild about it.
No.
You know, like, corned beef doesn't really yank my chain.
In fact, I had curried corned beef, roast corned beef, corned beef hash, corned beef sandwiches, blade corned beef... Oh, it's okay once or twice, you know, every now and then, but...
So what would happen is I'd get very tired of the food we were eating and I'd begin to specialize in things like rice and beans, something that's very, very simple.
Yes.
And I would lose about 20 pounds when I'd go into the field for two or three months.
So this may have had something to do with it.
It also could be the monotonous monochromatic landscapes.
It could have been the heat.
I mean, it went up to 115 degrees in the daytime there out in the desert.
Yeah, it's warm.
All of this probably contributed.
But it doesn't matter, whatever it is, it got you into altered states, and you don't think it was any specific hallucinogenic.
In other words, you knew enough about your diet to know you weren't ingesting hallucinogenics, even if by accident?
Something was double-clicking my program, and it wasn't hallucinogens.
I thought that these were dreams.
I thought that they were dreams until one morning.
One of the Africans who worked for us, a guy named Kambulu, he came up to me as I was brushing my teeth at the water tank, and he said to me, Hey, Dr. Hank, what were you doing flying over my tent last night?
Really?
Now, this got my attention.
Well, sure.
This got my attention.
And I think, Art, what was happening was that something had double clicked my program.
My consciousness was beginning to expand, but I wasn't ready.
And so, I kind of put a bookmark in my life.
I wrote cryptic notes to myself in my field journals.
And I went back to doing science, because in those days, that's where I worshipped.
I worshipped at the altar of science.
Yeah, well, if you were to send reports like that back home, you know, they'd have you on a flight so fast that... This isn't the sort of thing you reveal to your colleagues.
No, it isn't.
Not if you want to remain in the field.
That's right.
So you didn't, but you kept a record.
Well, ten years later, I was finishing up my PhD in Berkeley, and one night I was asleep next to my wife, who was about to give birth to our first child.
By the way, a lot of people in the audience, and I'm sorry to interrupt you, will say, oh yeah, Berkeley, huh?
Berkeley.
Berkeley, huh?
Well, no wonder you was floating up out of the tents.
Right.
So, you want to dismiss that?
Well, you know, as I've said, I was very straight in the 70s.
I was helping to run these field expeditions.
I was doing high-powered science in a lab, a lab of human evolutionary studies.
I know, but you were in Berkeley.
Sure.
So, I mean, you want to just say right now that you didn't do a lot of hallucinogenics in the Berkeley area, or did you?
I didn't.
Okay.
I didn't.
Unlike Terrence, I was one of those guys who was, you know, very involved with what I was doing.
Okay.
You know how scientists tend to be.
They get locked into their program and they live in that world.
Yeah, I'm just telling you what some of the audience would say when they even hear Berkeley, so I'm glad to dismiss that.
Continue.
Right.
Well, the way in which all this really cracked open for me... Alright, August 1982-83, somewhere in there.
My wife is getting ready to give birth to our first child.
I wake up about four o'clock in the morning and there she is reading.
She's very uncomfortable.
And so I try to help her get back to sleep.
I'm massaging her.
And of course, inevitably, the magic that touch creates evolved into a joyous marital encounter.
That's a good way to put it.
Maybe this is the male solution to everything.
I don't know.
But at the end of this wonderful encounter, I was completely blissed out.
And my wife was committed to remain awake and read her book.
I remember slipping down under the covers, getting ready to go back to sleep, and suddenly this strange feeling came into my body.
It was very much like a vibration.
Was it guilt?
Well, it's hard to say.
I'm joking with you.
Yeah.
I mean, you're falling right asleep there.
I was falling asleep, and this vibrational feeling comes into my body, very much like what it's like when you're on a swing, and you swing down and up in this heady arc, and your body fills with this rush of feeling.
You know what I'm talking about?
My body became completely paralyzed as this feeling rushed into me.
And unlike the swing, it didn't stop.
It's like somebody was turning up a rheostat.
And it could have been quite disturbing if it hadn't been so exquisitely pleasurable.
So you let it go?
Well, I was precipitated into what could be called a visionary state of consciousness, an altered state of consciousness.
Right.
In which I found myself standing in this forest, looking around in all directions at these trees in the dark.
And suddenly I hear my wife turn the page of her book.
Right.
It's like I was focused on both realities at the same time.
Here and there, yes.
And it was in this dark forest at night that I had a direct encounter with what traditional tribal people would call a spirit.
Now, nothing in my training in anthropology at Berkeley prepared me for this experience.
It was really quite a mind-blowing experience.
Can you describe it?
I can.
I discovered in this state that my thoughts were like actions.
If I wanted to look at something, I kind of floated over and I could look at it very closely.
I wasn't sure what I was walking on or how I was getting around, but I was hyper-aware, hyper-aroused, you could say.
We'll talk about that in a few moments in terms of some very unusual things I can do with my brain, apparently.
Underneath these trees, I suddenly became aware of the fact that there was a human-like silhouette.
It looked like a tall, door-like form that didn't seem to have any arms or legs, with a little head on top, and it was completely black and featureless.
And as I focused on it, the power sensations in my body just kept going up and up and up, and I found myself sort of picked up off the ground.
I mean, it really felt like there were searchlights flashing out of my eyes.
I suppose I would have screamed if I could have screamed, but I couldn't do anything.
I was completely and utterly paralyzed next to my wife in bed.
We have people on this program that describe what you're describing as something called shadow people, for lack of a better name.
Shadow people?
Yup.
That would be a very good way to describe this being.
Really?
Very good way.
Since that time, I've looked through my anthropology books, and I have found the same silhouette in rock art all over the world.
In Barrier Canyon in Utah, in Ontario, in Arizona, in Africa, you see the same tall sort of humanoid figure.
Looks kind of like a guy in a black trench coat, but without any features whatsoever.
Oh, brother.
Oh, brother.
Yep.
You are describing what thousands of people have now described to me.
We got off on this kick.
Somebody sent in an email and said, I'll tell you exactly what he said, because it's going to jive, I think, with what you're talking about.
He said, you know, Art, for years I've seen what appear to be creatures, but I only catch a tiny glimpse of them in my peripheral vision.
You know, I catch the movement, I see the movement, and it began that way.
But, Art, you know, something's changing, because now I'm beginning to see these almost featureless human Creatures just like you described professor and but now I can see them straight on That's it.
And and you know, this has led to a lot of speculation on this program about Vibration and frequency and the fact that we may be beginning as a human race to evolve in some way and In some way, our vibrational level is changing, and we're beginning to see, occasionally, into a new spectrum.
And more and more into that new spectrum, something is, perhaps, evolution is underway.
Now we're getting into the evolutionary sleepers.
You see?
I had a feeling we would, John.
Yeah.
Well, this first encounter is in the first chapter of my first book, Spirit Walker.
It's the beginning of a very unusual story.
Oh, my.
And in the third book, Vision Seeker, Which came out last year?
There's a postscript in that book at toward the end of the book called evolutionary sleepers. I
Suspect that there are higher functions which are coded into the personal mind-body matrix that can remain dormant
throughout life But once they're awakened they can transform us utterly and
I think this is what we're talking about Maybe the inner fieldwork of the of the Eastern mystics,
you know, these guys knew about this It suggests that there are timing mechanisms which may
involve the ductless glands the brain and the heart. Yes And once these are activated, these centers can enlighten the whole body, which in turn often undergoes striking changes.
Now, at this particular time, the human species as a whole has not experienced the triggering of these higher functions.
But those individuals who have experienced them You know, whether through hallucinogens or through physiological or psychological or social techniques, they really stand before us as markers, as signposts, as prototypes, in a way, of what humankind may actually become when the whole population wakes up and makes the jump.
And when I say making the jump, what I'm really talking about here is crossing an evolutionary threshold and becoming a new species.
Yes.
Well, here's an interesting question for you, Professor.
Think about this.
That's one evolutionary track that I think you're dead right about, but there's another underway as well.
And there's a kind of a race going on right now.
And, you know, we have Element 92, we have the atomic bomb, we have biological poisons that just could take everybody out, we have environmental erosion that could make it untenable for the human race to live on Earth if it keeps up.
We have all these Other negative things racing along, and it's like a race between that and what you're talking about.
And you've got to wonder, will we evolve and rise above it all first?
Or will we blow ourselves to smithereens first?
That's a good question.
I know, that's why I asked it.
What do you think?
Well, you know, recent surveys I've shown that as many as one out of every two of us have had some kind of paranormal or anomalous experience at some time in our lives.
I was at a conference last week on the Prophets Conference in Santa Fe, a very, very successful venue, and when the audience of four to five hundred people were asked how many people have had a paranormal, anomalous experience, virtually everybody at that conference put up their hand.
Well, sure, but I mean, look at the conference on that.
What we're talking about is, if you'd asked that same question 40 years ago, how many people would have put up their hands?
Perilously few.
Well, okay, but if you went into the general population and selected that number of people and asked the same question, what percent of hands do you think might go up today?
I would say about half.
You really think so?
I think so.
I think so.
This has to do with these evolutionary sleepers who seem to be awakening.
Who's done these studies, do you know?
Well, you know, Paul Ray has done a lot of it.
He's done a lot of the demographics on the values, the trends, the beliefs of this very interesting population.
He calls them the cultural creatives.
For me as an evolutionary scientist, the fact that that many people have had these experiences, and the fact that in the workshops and seminars that I do, I can use the drum Or the rattle.
And I can double-click this program on people's hard drives, so that they vision successfully, very much like traditional tribal shamans, on the very first go.
You know, there were stories this last weekend, for example.
I was working with Greg Braden and Barbara Marks Hubbard.
We did a day of co-creation together.
Yes.
With a group of about 150 people, and we used the drum, we used the rattle.
And people, after 15 minutes of exposure to this vibrational frequency, You know, we're sharing incredible stories about meeting ancestors who had been dead for 10 or 20 years, about meeting spirits, about meeting medicine men and medicine women in these altered states of consciousness.
Really?
This was being done without drugs.
It was being done without hallucinogens.
And this is what I think it's all about.
I think it's really about the fact that we have this program and we can double-click it using various kind of mice.
Mice to double-click the program.
I suspect that this program has actually been there for a very long time, possibly as much as 50,000 years, 60,000 years.
That would make sense, if it's one of our abilities is just something dormant, and you've figured out how to awaken it.
Hold on, Professor, we're at the bottom of the hour.
Professor Hank Wesselman is my guest, a very interesting fellow indeed, with a lot to say, and we've got a lot of material to get through, and of course we'll get to your questions as well.
Wasn't it Gordon Michael's guy in talking about the children of the Blue Ray or something the other night?
A lot of people talking about what's going on.
And I'm smiling, walk me mild to drink your vodka This is Coast
You know I'd love to laugh A girl
Set up as a fool, clumsy, trying hard to recreate what had yet to be created
Watching her life, she musters a smile for his nostalgic tear
Never coming near what he wanted to say Only to realize
It never really was She had a place in his life
He never made her think twice As he rises to her apology, anybody else would surely know
He's watching her go But a fool believes
He sees No one has the power
Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from West of the Rockies at 1-800-322-4235
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First-time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
To reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0100.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
Professor Hank Wesselman is my guest.
We're talking of many fascinating things, and you're certainly welcome to stay right where you are.
I've got an interesting note from William in Portland, Oregon, and I've always believed In the altered states produced by music.
I mean, there's absolutely no question about it.
Music can produce an altered state.
And William in Portland says, I bet the Moody Blues hit that frequency in a lot of their songs.
I could fly on that music just from the tones.
So, I agree with you.
I absolutely agree with you.
there are some songs that at the right time can take you to a completely different place.
Stairway to Heaven, Zeflin.
Most things by the Moody Blues, music in general, they can produce altered states, can't they, Professor?
They sure can.
You know, they're part of what could be really called a technology of transcendence, or a technology of the sacred.
It was developed by the indigenous people probably tens of thousands of years ago.
How do you get evidence of that?
In other words, how do you know that indigenous people that long ago were even aware of these altered states?
Well, the earliest evidence that I know about comes from a cave site called Lombos Cave down on the tip of South Africa.
We know that the earliest Evidence for Homo sapiens, the species to which we belong, appears in Sub-Saharan Africa about 130,000 years ago.
But, although we were anatomically modern, like we are today, we were behaviorally more like the Neanderthal people, who lived between 300,000 and roughly 30,000 years ago.
And by the way, what happened to them?
Well, they disappeared from the scene about 30,000 years ago, and probably They were replaced by migrating anatomically modern homo sapiens people coming into southwestern Asia and Europe.
Why didn't they just keep on propagating?
Well, they probably did keep on propagating and it took a very long time for the transition to occur.
I see.
We have, for example, evidence in the period called Aurignacian, the Aurignacian period roughly between 42,000 and 30,000 years ago.
We do have evidence for the fact that Neanderthals were learning how to make stone tools differently from these incoming anatomical moderns.
And so we see a mixture in their stone tool kits of Mousterian artifacts, which is the word we give to the Neanderthal cultural tradition, with the incoming Aurignacians who had a blade tool technology which was completely different.
I think part of the key to the disappearance of the Neanderthals is they were not very innovative.
They were very skilled tool makers But they didn't innovate.
You know, they made their tools in exactly the same way for about 80,000 years from Uzbekistan in the east to Spain in the west.
And, you know, they settled into making them in their way and they just stuck with it.
Whereas these incoming Homo sapiens people, they developed nine separate stone tool technologies in about a 30,000 year period.
But that still doesn't explain how they virtually Disappeared.
I mean, somehow you would even imagine, even with their old ways, the old ways would remain, the propagation would continue.
I mean, something had to stop a whole race just cold like that, no more, gone.
It may have happened over a long, long, long period of time, but how?
We don't know.
Well, that's a good question.
It's part of the great mystery.
You know, there are two major schools of thought.
One is that we just simply replace them.
And the other school of thought is that we are them.
That we interbred with them and just absorb them into our population.
And you lean toward?
I lean toward the former.
You know, genocide is an old custom.
Yes, it is.
Well, actually, practice very recently over on another continent.
Yeah.
Well, you know, we have evidence in the archaeological and fossil record for Human remains with cut marks on them made by stone tools.
One of the most dramatic is a skull from about 600,000 years ago from Ethiopia, from a site called Bodo, which has cut marks all over it.
I mean, it was intentionally to flesh.
Yeah, well, we still do that today.
I mean, we take swords and machetes and mop off heads and do all kinds of stuff.
We do.
Yeah, we do.
So I sense that this is the way that things went for the Neanderthals when their end came.
Yeah, well, to get back to this cave in South Africa, we have several pieces of red ochre, which have interesting patterns inscribed into them, grids, and they kind of look like checkerboards.
And for people who've had visionary experience, and I'm one of those people, These grids are something that you perceive in altered states of consciousness.
You see these interesting visual hallucinations, these spots of light and lines and vortexes, and something that looks like a great spider web or a grid, which is spread out across what, you know, looks like space and time combined.
And this grid is the great field, the unitive field throughout Which everything is connected to everything else everywhere and everyone.
You can't see it in your ordinary state of consciousness, but those people who can vision can see it.
And we, you know, we see the first evidence for this in a symbolic expression at about 77,000 years ago in South Africa.
That's getting back there now.
It certainly is.
But you know, when art appears, you know, something very interesting occurs when art appears roughly between 35,000 and forty thousand years ago. It pretty much appears all
over the world at the same time.
Interesting.
It's a symbolic way of expressing the self. You know, it implies some kind of neural rewiring in the brain.
The brain didn't get bigger, but we were using the brain differently, so that, you know,
I could draw a picture of an animal on a cave wall, and you'd recognize it, because you would recognize that symbol,
and this was made possible by kind of an associative thinking or an associative learning.
This is something the Neanderthal people apparently couldn't do.
It was a tremendous advance and from that point onward we really have behaviorally modern people who dominate the scene and they replace the archaic types everywhere in the world.
Well, maybe you can comment then on the behavior being exhibited right now by the people who Took those World Trade Center buildings down, destroyed the Pentagon by now, and breaking news tonight, by the way, a U.S., a car bomb at the U.S.
consulate in Pakistan.
You know, this kind of modern behavior that is just a modern version of what you're describing.
So how have we changed so much, or is it just by sheer numbers?
I mean, not as many doing it now as then, or what?
Well, you know, it's interesting you should ask that question.
The last time we were on, I don't know if you remember, but I was scheduled to interview with you on the night of September the 11th.
Yes.
And, you know, we mentioned that just in passing, and it gave us both pause for a thought.
You know, I had to teach a class that day.
I came back from watching the World Trade Center go down, you know, in my living room, and I had to go off and teach a class at one of the colleges where I teach.
And I'm telling you about half the students were there.
Everybody was pretty damn somber.
Sure.
People were in shock.
And I talked a little bit about this phenomenon which had occurred.
And one of the things that I said to my students is that I personally have been going into Africa now since 1964, which is, you know, 35 years or so.
And I've watched the lives of the of the tribal people grow steadily worse over this 30 year period.
For example, when I go to Otis, you know, the human misery and suffering there is really quite extraordinary.
And it's getting worse.
Well, half the world's population, you know, we passed the six billion mark.
Yes.
Half the world's population endures life waste, in which starvation and, you know, abject poverty is just part of their given on a daily basis.
And that's half of the world's population?
Half of the world.
That's really something for people to consider because they just Don't think about that.
Half the world is starving.
They are, and they're sort of watching television, and they're seeing what we have.
And, you know, this is not a good situation.
You know, basically, without going political, you know, I personally feel that there's just much too much money concentrated on the top, and it's not filtering down.
It's not filtering out into the countryside.
It's not filtering out into these third world countries, which are really the first world countries.
And, you know, if we're going to resolve this question, we have to go in there and feed these people and train them and make their life better.
And they have to understand that we're doing that for them.
We have to come to that place of service.
Yeah, either that or kill them.
Because they'll try to kill us.
Well, you know... I mean, I hate to be that brutal about it, but that's kind of what it's going to come down to, Professor.
It's happening right now.
That's what happened with 9-11.
That's what happened with what's coming up.
I mean, we're probably about to face a rash of suicide bombers, homicide bombers, whatever you want to call them here in the U.S.
It's going to get worse and worse and worse and worse.
So I suppose either we give them what they want, and you're suggesting they want basically what we have.
That's right.
Or we kill them.
Now, you know, we have these big bombs, you know.
Those aren't the ones that people are really worried about.
They're worried about all these bombs that were made in Russia during the Cold War.
These small nuclear devices.
You know, with the end of the Cold War, a lot of these bombs have simply disappeared.
Nobody knows where they are.
These are bombs which you can make to look like a rock.
You can put them next to a bridge and detonate them and they'll kill everybody for a hundred miles.
Nobody knows where they are.
I mean, the people in Washington are very frightened about this.
And they should be.
I mean, there's a lot of fear coming from Washington.
The American people feel a lot of fear.
And for, you know, I guess good reason.
God, we're getting the warnings every single day.
These are people who, it seems, Professor, just simply want to kill us.
I think a lot of this has to do with the games that people choose to play in life.
The life games.
You know, I'm distinguishing between trivial and frivolous games played for amusement or entertainment or distraction, and those serious and significant life games that present us with challenges and objectives that contribute to our own personal growth and to the greater good of society and the world around us.
You know, it's really in response to these life games that our constellation of survival skills and abilities is formed and sharpened.
And this is what really enables each of us to succeed in becoming who and what we are.
You know, without these games worth playing, life becomes filled with repetition and boredom, giving rise to an ever-growing cycle of meaninglessness and disharmony, depression and despair.
Now, you know, in thinking about this idea, I came across a book on my bookshelves, which I hadn't looked at in about 30 years.
I don't know if you remember it.
Do you remember a book that came out in the late 60s by a guy named Der Rupp, and it was called The Master Game?
I do not.
It's a very interesting book.
De Romp was a biochemist who carried out research in the fields of cancer and the biochemistry of the brain.
Yes.
He essentially divided the life games that people play into two basic types, object games and meta games.
Object games are those which are played to explore, master, and acquire the things of the outer world, especially the physical foursome, money, power, sex, and status, and that's what we're talking about.
Right.
Metagames are played to master the things of the inner world, intangibles such as knowledge and beauty and salvation of the soul.
And he pointed out in this book that the different life games we choose to play are really indicators of the type of individuals that we are.
Well, Professor?
Yeah?
If the survival of the fittest is real, I mean, if that is still operative, If Survival of the Fittest continues to drive the
evolutionary engine, then of these two groups, which one do you think is going
to get knocked out?
Well, I think that all of us play all of them.
You know, I don't think that we tend to specialize until we discover who and what we are.
Well, it's another way of asking, do you think we will make an evolutionary leap and suddenly be all warm and relatively fuzzy, or will we blow ourselves to smithereens?
Right now, if you look around the world, it's looking an awful lot like the smithereens one there.
The smithereens scenario is definitely on the horizon.
and it's it's getting a lot closer and i think a lot of people are freaked out
about it ice plan you know it wouldn't right exactly uh...
uh... when somebody comes to kill you when the barbarians are at the gate and
they uh... have no desire but to you know i think to kill as many of you as as possible then
you really have very little choice and and the more likely response despite
the hope that there would be many who would rise and have this epiphany that
we're talking about that i do believe in it looks to me like uh... the barbarians are are here too
soon Yeah.
You know?
It looks like we're still in the barbarian stage of human evolution, doesn't it?
Yes!
In other words, These are just modern ways of lopping off heads with whatever, or bashing them in.
What is the real difference?
Just the weapons, you know, the technology?
Well, you know, when we look at these games, just to think about these games for a minute, you know, the object games are probably hierarchically lower, and they have a pathological edge to them, in that the players who play them emerge with very little that they can truly call their own.
For example, businessmen, right?
The corporate world playing the money game.
Yes.
You know, they may emerge as rich as old Rockefeller, only to find themselves embittered and unhappy and empty at a loss to know what to do with all their wealth.
Those people who play the fame game with the goal of becoming celebrities realize sooner or later that their fame is an illusion, a shadow.
They realize even more than that they're idiots because it's not that much fun.
Well, the military game, Unfortunately, when you look at the fact that, you know, our military budget is now close to $400 billion.
It was $190 billion in 1996.
We spend $1 billion every single day on defense.
A billion dollars a day on defense!
Well, in terms of the object games, the military game is probably the deadliest of all the object games.
Well, you know, we're talking about it.
It's really played by various grades of trained killers who are programmed to regard their craft as acceptable, even admirable.
Yes.
If those they kill believe in a different God or political system.
Actually patriotic.
Yes.
And, you know, history reveals that players of the military game can kill men, women, and children with boundless enthusiasm.
I mean, what's going on in the Middle East?
I know, I know, but there's also this other piece of history that says very strongly that Those who don't protect themselves get dead.
And I'm at the national level.
I'm talking now at the national level.
I mean, if you invite invasion, if you invite some enemy of yours to come on in and take what's around, they're gonna do it.
That's it.
Now, so the problem is we gotta still have This military establishment.
We have to.
We have to.
Well, right now we do.
But as you're pointing out, there's a kind of criminal element infusing most of these object games.
Because they harm both the players, as well as the society of which the players are a part.
Now, what gives me hope for the future are these metagames.
We look at the metagames for a minute.
You know, they're higher in that they're played for intangibles, and they tend to be more subtle.
Yet even these games tend to express both a positive and a negative polarity.
You know, people who play the art game, for example, are ideally searching for some kind of inner awareness that can be defined and expressed as beauty.
And yet, as you know, and I know, you know, there are many artists who have no inner awareness at all, and they can only be proficient at imitating those who do have it.
And others may become known for producing something that lacks beauty entirely, but is acceptable by virtue of being new or startling.
The science game.
I play the science game, and the science game ideally is involved with the search for knowledge and meaning.
But I look at my colleagues, and I have to say that there are a lot of them who are little more than technicians with advanced degrees who, like many who play the art game, are primarily interested in status and fame.
And of course, as all who play the science game discover sooner or later, projects that are truly original tend to be excluded by the array of committees that stand between the scientists and their funding and so forth and so forth.
Well, Oppenheimer played the science game.
Yeah.
Now, the religion game... Alright, the religion game is under siege right now because it's being exposed for what it is.
Well, but see, the religious... the religion game seems to be part of the...
Well, just listen to this and we'll come back and talk about the religion game.
See, the religion game seems to be part of the war game.
Because everybody who goes to war, they hold up their god as justification for going out to Bash in the other guy's skull.
right?
I just find, cause it means destruction of innocent lives.
War means tears, cause I was a mother's eyes, when I struggled to find and lose their lives.
I said war.
Every time I think about it, I wanna cry.
The phones and the dealings, the tickets keep coming.
Keep coming, the waiting may be easy, time to be young But I tell myself that I'm doing alright
There's nothing left to do tonight With the crazy on you
To reach Artbel in the Kingdom of Nigh From once to the Rockies dial 1
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Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
It sure is.
My guest is a very, very interesting man.
The flip side of last night all the way, well, at least most of the way, Professor Hank Wesselman.
And if you have a question for him...
And I can't imagine you wouldn't after everything we've discussed tonight.
You know how to do it, right?
We're as close as your telephone.
So that's where we're headed here pretty shortly.
I'm going to let you speak with him, however it may go.
So stay seated.
It should be very interesting.
All right, once again, Professor Hank Wesselman, welcome back.
Thank you.
This is kind of interesting.
Fritz in Phoenix asks, Hi Art, great show tonight.
Would the professor say that the grid that he sees, which connects all things, corresponds to, perhaps, the concept of the matrix?
Absolutely.
Really?
Absolutely.
And it's also, of course, the same thing as what the Hindus call the net of Indra.
Or the Celtic people call the web of weird.
The web of weird?
Weird.
That's where the word weird comes from.
Is it really?
Yes, it is.
W-Y-R-R-D.
Weird.
Wow.
Old Celtic word.
That's the great web that connects everything everywhere.
It's the great web of life.
Is this also what scientists are now beginning to call this non-locality?
I hear a lot of talk about non-locality.
The concept that everything is connected to everything and that people like remote viewers and others extract information from what they call the non-locality.
It's just words for connected to everything.
Consciousness connected.
Well, it's a very interesting question.
I suspect that, you know, recent changes to quantum theory and current discoveries in neurobiology ...reveal something very interesting about the human brain, and it hinges on this question.
The human brain seems to organize information holographically, and it functions very much like a massively parallel quantum computer, with the microtubules and the neurons of the brain most likely being the quantum hologram receptors.
Now, it has been suggested that the quantum hologram, and that's what we're talking about in terms of the grid, the grid is really a kind of quantum hologram, It's the wave portion of the wave-particle duality for macro-scale objects.
Are you guys still with me?
I think so.
The scientist kicks in here from time to time and throws something at him.
That's fine.
No, that's fine.
You know, it'd be interesting if McKenna were here with us tonight.
He's probably out there somewhere in the ether, you know, listening in.
Well, why do you think you're mentioning him so often?
Well, you know, I thought of him... Because he's with you.
He's probably with you.
Yeah.
You know, it has been proposed that this quantum hologram May tie the phenomenal universe of quantum, micro, macro, and cosmic-sized phenomena together.
And that this hologram, this grid, may be the mechanism through which nature actually learns.
All right.
He would have a lot to say about that if he were with us tonight.
I know he would.
And I'm so sorry he's not.
I want to take a few calls at this hour.
Are you up to that?
Sure.
OK.
A lot of people with questions.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Professor Hank Wesselman.
Hi.
Hi.
This is Wolfgang.
I'm calling from Mississauga.
From where?
Mississauga, Ontario.
OK.
Hey, Wolfgang.
How are you doing?
Not too bad.
I was at your workshop here in Toronto.
How are you doing?
Just two or three weeks ago.
That's right.
Good.
I was hearing about the grid, and I've seen the grid actually doing some healing work as well.
And I was just wondering... I'm a little bit nervous.
The grid... Sorry.
I'll skip it.
You've lost it, huh?
What do you know about the grid?
Well when I was doing work with a Native American I was doing some Reiki treatment on him and it was very bizarre that I saw the grid when I was doing like you get into a light trance state when you're doing the Reiki and I was actually delivering a message as well from it to him and I just thought it was interesting that he saw it too and I was just This is a very worthy question, and in fact, my book Vision Seeker, there's a chapter in Vision Seeker called The Nature of Reality, in which I really look at the nature of reality through the eyes of the Kahuna mystics of Polynesia.
Now, they had a very interesting way of seeing reality.
There's the physical reality, which we all take so much for granted as being the real reality.
Yes.
And we experience the physical plane, the way in which we do, because of three basic assumptions.
First of all, everything's separate from everything else.
Wolfgang, you're up there in Ontario, and I'm down here in Sacramento.
No question about it.
Secondly, everything on the physical plane has a beginning and an ending.
Right.
And thirdly, all effects have a cause.
Now we accept these assumptions as real and we perceive through them like lenses, and that's why we experience the physical world the way in which we do.
But now if we raise our vibrational level and we go into the second, what the Kohonas might call Ikepapalua, the second level of reality, awareness, and experience, we're going into that level that you're talking about, the energetic level, the level in which Reiki works.
The level of thoughts, emotions, and feelings and psychic awareness.
In fact, Ikepapalua is the word for psychic awareness in Hawaiian.
Now, the first assumption on this level, this is a subjective plane, not an objective one.
Thoughts, emotions, and feelings are subjective, not objective.
When you are at that level, are you able to look back at this level and subjectively judge it compared to where you are?
You sure can.
I mean, if you're thinking, you're in that level right now.
But this is the level in which the first assumption is that everything is connected to everything else.
On the physical plane, everything's separate from everything else.
On the second level, everything's connected to everything else.
Right.
And it's connected to everything else through the grid, through the matrix.
The matrix is essentially, it functions as the carrier of the energy.
It's not energetic itself, but it carries the energy.
And that's why people who are doing energy work or Veki work perceive the grid.
It's also the level of non-locality.
Because time is all at once.
You're outside of the time-space continuum.
Yes.
And there are no beginnings and endings at the second level.
There are only cycles and transitions.
Cycles and transitions.
See, energy cannot be created or destroyed.
That's a law of thermodynamics.
But it can shift to a new state.
Well, if you're able, when in that state, to actually look back and subjectively observe this state, does it look...
Does it feel prehistoric?
Does it feel alien as compared to the state you're in and the consciousness level you feel?
Let me give you an example of how I experienced it recently.
Sure.
I was on a hike up in the high Sierras, and to make a long story short, we walked about 20 miles.
And at the end of that long day, sort of the annual death march, I was walking down this long glacial valley.
And I picked up a beautiful arrowhead made out of obsidian.
It was obviously made by the prehistoric people that used to go up there.
This is about 8,000 feet, to get stone out of the rocks, to get obsidian glass out of the rocks from which they could make stone tools.
And we've got some obsidian deposits, big ones, very close to me here.
That's wild stuff, isn't it?
It's great!
Well, on this particular day I was very tired, and it was late that day, and I remember looking across this sort of willow flat, if I could call it that.
In fact, that's what the name of this place is, Willow Flood.
And I remember thinking to myself, where did the prehistoric people, where did the Native
Americans live?
And of course, my inner archaeologist clicks on.
I start scanning the valley, and I saw it.
I saw this wonderful mound that was close to this stream, perfect place for camp, you
know?
And as I'm...
First time callers, area code 775-727-1222.
...of my eyes, kind of like Brigadoon, appearing out of the mist.
I can see the lodges, I can see the Indians, I can see the children playing in the stream.
Let's go back and rephrase that.
I just zapped that out for the...
The ultra-sensitive out there, you know.
So, the whole damn thing.
Right.
Well, I'm getting worked up here.
I understand.
Just rephrase it so everybody hears it properly.
Just say damn.
The whole camp just sort of appeared in front of my eyes.
And I blink.
I can see it absolutely clearly.
The smoke rising from the fireplaces.
The women working on hide staked out on the ground.
The men sitting and doing chores, making bow strings and so forth.
And suddenly, it's gone.
Now that's a non-local experience.
It sure is.
What I was doing is I was tapping into the field of that place in second level and I was perceiving something recorded in the field of that place.
Whether it happened a hundred years ago or a thousand years ago, no way of knowing.
But I sensed that I was looking through across space and time into something that happened there a long time ago.
This of course hinges on what my strange books are about.
Um, haven't you Ever questioned, though, whether you're just not having, you know, like an archaeologist's field of dreams, whether what you're experiencing is not real, but concocted from all the information that you know so well with all of your formal training, and that your brain is applying that at that moment.
It's not necessarily real, But a proper fantasy from your mind?
Well, see, what I'm using here is I'm using the quantum hologram.
See, the quantum hologram may be the basis for all perception, including psychic awareness.
Because what I was seeing was essentially a psychic experience.
You know, it also suggests that true psychic sight, Uh, is not the sixth sense, but it may actually be the first sense, because it may very well have been around since the Big Bang.
I agree with that as well.
Uh, very quickly, first time caller line, you're on the air with, uh, Dr. Hank Wesselman.
Hi.
Hi, Art.
Hello.
And, uh, Dr. Hank, and, uh, love your show.
Uh, Art, I'm gonna argue with this guy for as long as you'll let me.
Okay, well, you're on a cell phone, so you'll, let's see how you do.
Okay.
Uh, Dr. Hank.
Yep.
I submit to you that, uh, Isotope, radioactive isotope dating is the same no matter whether it's carbon or potassium or whatever.
And the same assumptions and the same logic that they use for carbon dating is the same assumptions and logic that they use for potassium.
And all it is with potassium is a more accurate way of misdating.
That's what I submit.
We've got much deeper range of time.
See, the half-life of potassium argon goes back to about a billion and a half years ago.
Well, the half-life of carbon-14 is only good for about 50,000 years.
But, Doctor, they're uncovering rocks right now known when they were created.
Down in the land down under, down in New Guinea, Mount St.
Helens, where they are already misdating them by millions of years.
They've shown carbon, and All I'm saying is that potassium dating is just another package, and it's just, you're trying to stay ahead, one step ahead, of scientists who come out and show this to be inaccurate.
It is absolutely inaccurate, Doctor, and furthermore, Dr. Ball, last night, pointed out that there's a fossilized tree, and this is not the only case, but this tree goes over 20 million years of layers of sediment.
Okay.
And it just totally disproves, in my opinion, that we even had a Jurassic period, Neolithic and all of that.
How can you explain that, Doctor?
Well, do you think that all of the dinosaur fossils are fakes?
No, no, no.
The fossils are real.
The only reason they could be fossilized in the first place is to be buried under a worldwide flood.
Deep enough to where the bacteria could not get to it.
We have millions and billions of bison and not a single fossil.
There was no flood when the bisons were killed off.
Oh, we've got lots of fossil bison.
No, we have dinosaur fossils, no doubt about it.
But it's just like they used to say that coal itself is millions of years old.
And there's already coal forming right there at Mount St.
Helens.
It's just another example of how wrong we have been, you know, so far.
You live up in Oregon?
Huh?
You're up in Oregon?
No, sir.
In Washington?
No, I'm in Cincinnati.
Oh, you're in Cincinnati?
I'm just calling on a cell phone.
You are?
I'm a truck driver, but I'm a self-educated man.
Uh-huh.
I thought you were on the West Coast, and I was going to invite you to come down sometime to Berkeley and go to the Museum of Paleontology, where you can see some really fabulous stuff.
Oh, I'd love to, but that still wouldn't change my opinion.
You know, it absolutely wouldn't, doctor.
Thank you, caller.
You know, he's absolutely right.
I mean, he would take a look at everything you would show him, and I guarantee you, his opinion would not change.
He would say, any measurement that you're using, any process you're using, to date, is wrong.
And the reason he would say that is because he has faith, and there's that word, faith.
You know, he has faith.
Which is a belief in something you cannot prove, which you wouldn't be able to shake.
I don't care what you showed them.
Right.
It has to do with spiritual unfolding, really, doesn't it?
You know, in the stages of spiritual unfolding, there are four basic levels.
The very first level is belief.
You know, believing in God, believing in spirits.
You can have mythic beliefs.
You can have magical beliefs.
You can have scientific and rational beliefs.
But usually beliefs fail to compel us in the end, and you know, a decade, two decades can go by believing, and not much changes in our lives.
This is where faith steps in.
That's the second level.
You know, faith soldiers on while beliefs fail to compel us anymore.
And faith can take you in two different directions.
It can either spiral you back into belief, which in my opinion is what fundamentalism is, or it can take you into the other direction, and the other direction is the third level of spiritual unfolding, direct experience.
Now, you can believe in spirits, you can have faith in spirits, but when you've had direct experience of spirit, it takes you immediately to the fourth and final stage, which is personal transformation.
Well, that man would have said, of the spirits that you speak of, that they are not spirits, they are, um... They can serve my imagination.
No, no.
Evil manifestations.
He wouldn't deny their Uh, reality, their existence.
But to him, he would say they're evil manifestations.
Uh-huh.
I would probably disagree.
That doesn't mean that there are not evil spirits.
I believe that there are, and I've had to deal with them on occasion.
But, um... That might be an interesting question when we get back.
Doctor, hold on.
Doctor Hank Wesselman is my guest from the high desert.
This of course is Coast to Coast AF.
I'm going to be driving through the area of the coast.
Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First-time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
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To reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
So in a sense, you see, the Matrix is real.
The concept is fascinating and the probability is that it's real and that may mean that in essence those of us who play some certain games only ever see the Matrix, never see anything else.
That would probably amount to about half of us.
And the other half, well, they probably think it's pure rubbish.
you I'm going to get a drink.
I guess all I can say in my life is, I have had, uh, occasional, fast, uh, uninvited glimpses of the grid.
Uh, very short, very brief, very, uh, unexpected, and, uh, and that's all.
Uh, but then I, you see, I can understand That there may be some out there who literally can exist almost entirely.
That certainly would be something to imagine entirely outside of this matrix and within the grid.
There probably are people like that.
I'm certainly not one of them.
Professor Henke Wesselman is almost one of them here.
But, you know, you get grounded enough to sit here and talk to us.
Right?
Right.
You know, the grid is very important because it takes us into the third level.
The grid exists between the physical world and the third level, which is the spirit world.
Yes.
And this is what happened to me out in Africa.
I began to perceive the spirit world through the grid, but I had no idea what I was experiencing in those days.
You know, I wasn't ready.
But in the 80s, I had a whole series of these visionary experiences.
I began to vision very much like traditional shamans.
And it seemed to be a completely spontaneous affair that was triggered, that was double-clicked by lovemaking, lovemaking with my wife.
And we talked about this when we conversed back in January.
I recall.
Yeah, it was really quite extraordinary.
I began to have these classic visionary experiences in which I was traveling through the grid and into a higher level of vibration where you find these spirits.
And this is really what my books are about, how I connected with the mind of a man.
Once again, tell everybody about your books.
I want to give you a good chance to plug them because obviously if they're interested in what they've heard tonight, they're going to want to follow up and they're going to want to grab one of those books.
Right.
Well, the first book, Spirit Walker, is really the story of my initiation.
It's the story of how I went crazy in Hawaii.
I began to connect through this visionary channel.
For lack of a better term, through this matrix, with the mind of another man, I began to be able to see through his eyes, hear through his ears, I could pick up his thoughts, his memories, his emotions, his feelings and judgments, and they were not my memories.
If I've got this right, and I believe I do, this man is one of my descendants.
In fact, he could very well be a descendant self.
Now, that doesn't mean he's Hank Wesselman.
There's only one Hank Wesselman right here, right now.
But, in some way, His energy body is derived from mine, and energy seems to be the connecting link between this man and myself.
And once there was a suitable sender and receiver on each end, I began to perceive across the space-time continuum into a future time, which is roughly 5,000 years from now.
Now, how is such a phenomenon possible?
In fact, my books are about this interesting phenomenon.
You know, Spirit Walker is the story of 12 visionary experiences in which I saw the future world through the mind and heart of this man.
Can you take a moment, I mean that's a great tease, but can you take a moment, if you have seen 5,000 years into the future, we sure would like to hear a little bit about it.
Would you?
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, this man is a Hawaiian.
That's not surprising since I was living in Hawaii, but he wasn't in Hawaii.
He was... I was in Hawaii.
He was living somewhere on the western coast of North America, in what is possibly California, but the Central Valley is filled with salt water because there's been a marine inundation.
Remember when we began to talk a little bit about this climatic change scenario, the greenhouse warming?
Oh, yes.
And California's covered with rainforest.
This man is essentially living on the coast of the lost continent of America.
Now, you know, when I think of my scientific reputation going down the drain, you know, how would I make such wild claims?
Well, in fact, my books are a very careful investigation of a very bizarre ongoing psychic phenomenon, which still goes on for me to this day.
My third book, Vision Seeker, there's a chapter called The Gateway to Transcendent Experience, in which the universe dropped something absolutely extraordinary into my lap, the scientific validation of these altered state experiences.
In 1996, after my first book was published, I got a large envelope from the University of Illinois at Chicago School of Public Health.
It was a letter from a psychiatrist A man who's in the Department of Psychiatry.
He's also co-director of the Brain Function Lab.
His name is Norman Dunn.
Norman Dunn wrote to me and he said, you know, I just read your book, Spirit Walker, and you might be interested to know, I think I know what it is that you're doing.
He went on to describe the research of a French investigator named Henri Gasteau back in the This man, Gaston, was the world's foremost investigator of temporal lobe epilepsy at that time, so he had impeccable credentials.
He went to India looking for a guru who could achieve the direct conscious connection with the Godhead that is called Samadhi, and he found one.
This guru allowed himself to be wired for sound.
He allowed himself to be wired for an EEG, an electron cephalogram.
And what Gaston was expecting is he was expecting this guru's brainwaves to drop down from beta, which is thinking, through alpha, which is resting, into those very regular slow brainwave states called theta waves.
Right.
Because it's been known for a long time that Zen masters and meditators and shamans, visionaries, go into these theta wave brainwave states.
Well, in fact, when he measured the guru's brainwaves, the guru went in the other direction.
He went way out beyond beta.
Now, beta states are roughly 13 to 20 cycles per second.
That's called hertz.
Right.
This guru was going out to 40 hertz, and he was generating between 40 and 50 microvolts of amplitude.
Holy mackerel!
10 to 15 is normal.
10 to 15 is normal in beta waves.
And Gusteau published this back in the 50s in a French publication, a peer-reviewed journal, and the paper had been widely cited for the last 40 years, but it had never been challenged because we simply didn't have a model of consciousness in which to fit these rather extraordinary brainwave states.
But why not, I mean science is repetition, why not try to repeat it at least?
I couldn't find anybody who could do it.
Now, this guy, Norman Dunn, had been working in Brazil for the past eight years on an NIH grant.
He had topographic brainwaves on over 100 subjects in altered states of consciousness, psychics, transmediums, shamans, and so forth and so on.
And in this group, he found 13 individuals who could achieve these 40 Hz brainwave states.
And guess what?
What?
All of them have had the alien abduction experience.
That's really interesting.
Here it comes.
Yeah.
All of them claim that they could not go into these very high frequency brainwave states until they had connection with these extraterrestrial beings.
And all of them could step into it and out of it at will.
All of them claim to see and connect with spirits.
Some of them claim to have direct conscious connection with God.
Now having laid this out for me, Norman Donne then asked the question, Could I achieve these expanded awareness states through my own volition?
Now these started for me back in the early 1980s, and this now is the middle 1990s, and in some way, which I don't fully understand consciously, my subconscious mind has learned how to do this, has learned how to achieve these very powerful brainwave states in which my body is filled with power and I vision.
I have vision like traditional shamans.
So the question was, could I do it?
So I picked up the phone.
He gave me his pager number.
And I called him.
This was the beginning of a most unusual relationship because in talking to Norman Dunn, he was very excited.
He wanted me to come to Chicago to run some tests on my brainwaves.
To make a long story short, with my teaching schedule and my workshop and seminar schedule, I couldn't go.
So he came to California.
Oh, really?
He brought his portable field unit with him, set up a lab in his hotel room here in Sacramento, and over an hour and a half period, he wired my brain for sound with the electro-gel and the skullcap and the software and the Lexicor 24 system.
In other words, this was hard science.
He turned everything on, sat in front of the computer screen, and asked me to just go into resting states, thinking states, and so forth and so on.
He gathered all this data on the way in which my brain was functioning from front to back.
And then he said, OK, let's see you open this inner doorway of yours.
So I did it.
And I gave him a real beauty.
I just opened that doorway and my body was filled with these incredible feelings of force or power.
And, you know, I was just soaring, just soaring.
And this is without drugs, I might add.
No drugs.
I've got you.
And?
He's watching this screen and the first words out of his mouth were, wow, you can really do it, can't you?
I thought to myself, why would I say I could do it and waste his time and mine?
You know what I mean?
So what was he registering?
He said, can you do it again?
The guru could only do it twice.
So over the next hour, I voluntarily induced this altered state of consciousness in which I vision.
And in all dozen trials, my brainwaves were going out to 40 hertz.
Wow.
Generating between 50 and 60 microvolts of amplitude.
Wow.
It was focused mostly in the frontal and prefrontal lobes of the brain, not in the temporal lobes.
But the frontal lobes?
The frontal lobes.
I'm not surprised.
That's incredible.
This is incredible because it validates scientifically the stuff we talked about last January.
He came over to my house for lunch afterwards and he looked at my wife and said, you've got a very unusual husband.
My wife, of course, looked at him and said, what else is new?
He's been through all this with me, you see.
Yeah, she'd know.
My story is not unlike the story of a beautiful mind.
When I was going through this initiation crisis, I lost virtually everything except my wife and kids, and it was very touch and go there for a while.
I can imagine that, yes.
It was classic, shamanic initiation crisis.
Well, he looked at me and he said, you know, I've only been able to find 13 other people who can do this.
And I have a theory that those of you who can achieve these very high-frequency brainwave states could very well be prototypes for a new species.
It's entirely within reason.
This sort of draws us back to the evolutionary sleepers.
As I said, for people who are interested in this story I've just told you, There's a whole chapter in Vision Seeker complete with footnotes and subtitles and references for this stuff.
It's real science.
I suspect that this evolutionary program is part of some kind of imperative or probability which is drawing us toward it like a magnet.
Now, this statement does not throw me into the political sphere of the religious creationists and their rather limited concept of a fatherly monogod.
Rather, it implies that evolution is a co-creative process in which everything everywhere is in relationship.
See, there's the relationship.
Sure.
United by this grid, united by this biological program on our hard drive in which everything is being both driven by evolutionary impulses from the past and drawn towards evolutionary probabilities that exist in the future.
And I suspect that this push-pull dynamic has been going on for a truly immense amount of time.
Well, sure is going to be fun to see where it goes.
Professor, first time caller on, we've got to get him on, they're waiting.
Okay.
You're on the air, hello.
Hi.
Hi.
This is Peggy in Kansas City.
Yes.
I am so excited to get on, I can't tell you.
But I have a question for the professor.
Okay.
I believe in a lot of things, but Why can't somebody get into the mind of Osama Bin Laden or somebody to tell where they're going or what they're going to do so we can prevent stuff like this?
Everybody claims that they can do that.
I mean, you know, tell the future, tell this, that and the other, but why doesn't somebody tell that kind of future?
Alright, in a way it's a very interesting question and You know, after 9-11, everybody screamed bloody murder.
Why didn't the psychics call it?
Why didn't those who can see in ways that they say others cannot see, why didn't they call it?
Why didn't they know?
Why wasn't there some warning from that segment?
From that sector?
From the psychic sector?
Yeah.
Well, I suspect that there is a I suspect that there's a spiritual protocol, for lack of a better term.
I don't think that you're really allowed to get into somebody's head and mess with them.
Unless, of course, you're one of the dark forces, you know?
We have these spirits of the dead and so forth that seem to assault people with the disorder called schizophrenia, for example.
These people seem to lack protection.
But the rest of us have a kind of shield.
And I suspect that the physical body is a kind of shield which protects us from people getting into our field, people of equal or lower vibration, and messing with us.
Now I will tell you this, prior to 9-11, and people are welcome to go back and check the programs, say a month or two prior to 9-11, I had call after call after call from people saying something really big is about to happen.
So they had a general idea that an event, a major event was very close, but nobody had specifics.
You know what I suspect?
Hmm?
They're operating through feeling mode, rather than through thinking mode.
And they can feel it, but consciously, they're not aware of exactly what it is.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Makes sense to me.
Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Dr. Hank Wasserman.
Hello.
Hello?
Yes, sir.
Hi, this is the Prophet again.
Okay, Prophet, you get one call per show, that's all.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Yes.
The question that I had was, About your dating methods?
Dating?
Yes.
You're interested in geochronology?
Yes.
Other people tell me that to know if the methods are accurate or not, we have to know how much of the C14 there is at the beginning.
When they first made the wood and everything, they have to know how much is in the wood, you know, when it's first, I guess, made basically.
And my question was, how do we know how to answer that question then?
Well, geochronology, you know, we're getting into an area here which is extremely technical and very well known in the scientific world.
There's an extensive literature, there's an extensive methodology now for doing geochronology, which is very sophisticated.
A lot of it You know, if you're doing carbon-14 work, that was sort of the preliminary, the precursor to all of the very sophisticated dating techniques we have today, which are carried out in very powerful labs with grants and machinery and vacuum tubes and the whole thing.
Part of the key is collecting the samples in the field and making sure that you get good samples from inside rocks from which have not been contaminated on the outside.
And geologists are trained to do this.
Geologists are very highly trained scientists.
Yeah, but he's saying essentially what I said in the beginning too, and that is, without knowing the original composition, you are making some presumptions in these dating methods, are you not?
I mean, you're forced to.
Well, it's true to some extent, but at the same time we Sort of compare the geochronology of radiometric dating with what is already known from sites all over the world.
I mean, you know, this is, you know, we're going into an area which is probably much more technical than most of your listeners would be interested in hearing, but allow me to assure you that this is an extremely exact science.
It's as exact as physics.
We're essentially talking about geophysics.
Okay.
All right.
Well, look, it has been incredible once again to have you on the program.
You are an amazing person, Professor.
Absolutely amazing.
And I hope everybody will go, and I suspect many will, and take a good read of your books.
And I want to thank you for being here tonight, and I guarantee we'll have you back again.
Hey, how about a website pitch?
Well, pitch away.
We've got a link, of course, but go ahead.
Yeah, sharedwisdom.com.
For those of you who are interested in seeing what I do and where I do it.
Sharedwisdom.com.
That's easy.
Sharedwisdom.com.
All right, my friend.
All right, it's been a pleasure.
Good night.
Good night.
That's it for now, folks.
Now, tomorrow night, tomorrow night is going to be probably pretty wild.
We're going to do a little speculating.
And social investigation with regard to the prospect of Planet X. See you tomorrow night.
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