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May 22, 2002 - Art Bell

02:51:38

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Richard Picciotto - World Trade Center Attacks

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Welcome to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
unidentified		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from May 22nd, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon, in whatever time zone you may be residing in at the moment.
		I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
		And I'll tell you, we have had a year.
		My family has really had a year.
		And I come to you this night with one hour's sleep since actually, since you last heard me.
		And then, of course, all the time before that.
		So, I haven't been to sleep in a long time.
		Maybe one hour of sort of sleep.
		Almost sleep.
		Here's what happened.
		During the program last night, as you know, taking back, you may recall I had this really horrible, mysterious fever that they still have no idea, really, frankly, what it was.
		They don't know.
		It came, it ravaged for two weeks on end, and then it went.
		Now, about eight days into this odyssey of having this incredible fever, my wife caught the fever too, which to me suddenly said, it's not the darkest things the doctors might think it might be.
		It's not that.
		It's a virus, some kind.
		Still, they have no clue.
		It just brought a fever, nothing else.
		Well, my wife got it eight days in.
		She still has it.
		And during the program last night, she began to have an asthma attack.
		She has real serious asthma.
		And it went on during the program last night.
		And then when I got off the air, it really took a turn south.
		And she couldn't breathe.
		And so we immediately began what we do when she has asthma.
		And we gave her theopolin, which is a drug she takes for asthma.
		Of course, the rescue inhaler, she also takes pregnisone when it's really bad.
		And so we started on all of that right away.
		And it went on and on and on, all night and all day.
		And at one point last night, she started turning color, started turning blue.
		And we were rushing to call the ambulance.
		But here in Toronto, Nevada, we don't have a hospital.
		So if you call an ambulance, all they can do is take you to Las Vegas, which is about an hour away, 40 minutes maybe in a speeding ambulance.
		I don't know.
		No, more like an hour to the hospitals.
		And so we were that close, you know, and we just did all kinds of things to try to get her air.
		And it began breaking just a hair, enough so that I didn't pick up the phone and call the ambulance.
		And I just gave her massage after massage after massage for, you know, muscles that were contracted and really sore and bad.
		And then this morning, I began a trek to get her oxygen, and I did.
		I got her some oxygen.
		And that's helped a lot today, too.
		So some of the drugs are taking hold, and the oxygen definitely helped.
		And so she's better tonight.
		But boy, I'll tell you something, folks.
		It was really close.
		It was really, really damn close.
		You spend time with the ones you love because our time here is all coin toss and a dice throw and all the rest of that baloney.
		Scary stuff.
		Really scary stuff.
		So I'm here with you tonight with about an hour's sleep.
		In a moment, we'll look at what happened in the world today.
		Some pretty interesting stuff, actually.
		In the next hour, we're going to hear from a New York Fire Department battalion commander, Richard Pagiotto.
		And Richard was in the World Trade Center when it collapsed.
		He was in it when it collapsed.
		When it came down, and it's some story.
		You're going to hear it's really some story as we live with the continued threat of just about everybody for everything and every mass kind of killing that one can imagine hanging over our heads.
		But that was yesterday's speech.
		In a moment, we'll look at what's going on tonight.
unidentified		Sounds of the wind
		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from May 22, 2002.
		Music By the way, you will not see an updated photograph of me on the website tonight because I look like hell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Unshaven, unkempt, unwashed, and having come through quite a battle.
		I'll tell you.
		All right, what's going on in the world?
		Well, this is incredible.
		Bones found in a Washington park today are, we now know, the remains of Chandra Levy, the federal intern who disappeared about a year ago, right?
		Police announced all this today.
		The police chief said the identification was made through dental records.
		This is incredible.
		Levy's disappearance riveted the nation for months, contributed to the political demise of her hometown congressman, Representative Gary Condit.
		Discovery of her remains did not end the mystery of her death.
		Ramsey said the manner and cause were still unknown.
		The remains, get this now.
		This is what gets me, and I don't understand.
		The remains were discovered in Washington's Rock Creek Park by a man walking a dog.
		Now, those of you who follow the predictions correction, the seeings of Major Ed Dames, may say, well, then he was wrong, and he may be.
		It's not where he said they'd be.
		But there's a couple things about, and he may be wrong, but there's a couple things about this that don't make sense to me.
		Go back with me a little bit, if you will, and remember the whole Chandralevy thing.
		Didn't they have like hundreds, if not thousands, of police and volunteers and dogs going through these parks?
		You know, dogs that are trained to go for bah-human bodies.
		They can find them.
		And didn't they comb park after park again and again and again and again?
		And then some guy walking a dog finds her, you know, remains that have to be identified.
		They're so far gone by dental records.
		I tell you, something's wrong here.
		Probably.
		I guess it could be that they all could have missed this body, this decaying body.
		They could have missed it, but it doesn't seem logical to me.
		Maybe it's the way it happened.
		I don't know.
		After a Senate panel voted to issue subpoenas today, the White House turned over summaries of dozens of contacts between Bush administration officials and Enron execs.
		No instance has yet been found of any Enron person asking anybody in the White House for help before Enron's bankruptcy last December.
		So this story is going to be with us for a very long time, this Enron story.
		It's what I told you when I first read it.
		Another suicide biodex.
		Really, they're not suicide bombings, are they?
		They're murders.
		There's a suicide involved, but they're really homicide bombings, and that's the proper name for them.
		Another one in Israel.
		He blew himself up in the central Israeli city of Rijon, is it?
		R-I-S-H-O-N, late Wednesday night, killing two other people, wounding 27.
		It'll probably never stop, huh?
		The death toll from a heat wave that has gripped southeastern India, brace yourself, rose to 1,030 Wednesday.
		As reports trickled in from remote rural villages, most of the dead were older people, unable to bear temperatures that were topping 122 degrees.
		It's the highest one-week death count on record for any Indian heat wave ever.
		Said one official, there seems to be no end to our suffering.
		Our weather, of course, is changing.
		We will have more stories like this.
		Here's an interesting story.
		L.A. voters, to decide on secession, a panel voted 8 to 1 Wednesday to allow Los Angeles voters to decide whether the sprawling San Fernando Valley, home to 1.3 million people, should be allowed to leave the nation's second-largest city.
		The decision puts the measure on the ballot, but the whole thing's probably going to get challenged in court.
		Nevertheless, that whole San Fernando Valley area would like to simply secede from Los Angeles.
		Leave.
		I wonder how it would be different if they did that.
		Yet another new iceberg has broken away from the Antarctic.
		According to the National Ice Center, this berg named D-17 broke off the Lazarus Ice Shelf, a large sheet of glacial ice and snow extending from the Antarctic mainland into the southeastern Weddell Sea.
		The new iceberg is 34.5 miles long and 6.9 miles wide, of the same size as St. Lucia Island in the Caribbean.
		Icebergs are named for the quadrant of Antarctica where they appear.
		D-17 is the 17th berg reported since record-keeping began in 1976.
		You know, that's interesting.
		We didn't even begin keeping records of all this until 1976.
		Just last week, an iceberg nearly as large as the Chesapeake Bay called C-19 broke away from the Antarctic.
		In March, another giant berg broke free in an adjacent area named B-22.
		It measured 2,120 square miles.
	Oh, my.
	That's bigger than the state of Delaware.
	So they continue to break away in the Antarctic.
	By the way, I should note, and this goes back about a week or so, but the day following Stan Deo's appearance on the program, you may recall he said there was a heat bloom that had appeared over Japan.
	Actually, two.
	One in the Antarctic, as a matter of fact, and the other over Japan.
	And the one in Japan, he suggested, was about to cause an earthquake very quickly.
	And I had the news the next day, but you know, it's been so busy that I haven't had time to get it on the air.
	Well, there was a moderately strong earthquake which hit eastern Japan Sunday morning.
	When was the prediction made?
	I think that was Friday night, wasn't it?
	So the earthquake occurred Sunday morning.
	It was 4.7 and about 50 miles below the ground in the northwest, about 18 miles actually north of Tokyo.
	So looks like Stan hit that one right on the head.
	There's a picture, if you can find it on the web, I really should have sent the link ahead to Keith of the first meteorite that scientists believe may have come from Mercury.
	NWA011 found in the Sahara in December of 1999 was immediately regarded as something unusual.
	It clearly had molten, a very molten past, and was formed from lighter materials than most meteorites.
	This implies it had once been part of a much larger body.
	It was originally classified with a group of meteorites thought to be from an asteroid.
	But look at this.
	A detailed analysis showed it to be different.
	Now researchers believe that it is the first known meteorite from our solar system's innermost planet, Mercury.
	Rocks blasted off Mercury by a large impactor would have a difficult journey to reach the Earth, say the researchers, but not impossible.
	Nevertheless, calculations show such rocks would be extremely rare to find here on Earth.
	NWA011 has an oxygen isotope ratio that indicates it came from a body much larger than a big asteroid.
	Japanese researchers say the basalt in NWA011 suggests the body from which it did originate had a core of molten iron with an outer covering of silicon and aluminum that formed a basaltic crust.
	And that means a planet-sized body.
	It could be Mercury.
	So.
	There you have it.
	Let's move into open lines for what time we have between now and the top of the hour and see what's going on out there.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Or yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm, well, you heard.
unidentified		Yes.
		There's been a story on Bill O'Reilly the last couple nights about the Mexican Army crossing into the United States and shooting at our border patrol.
		And I wondered if anybody else had heard anything about this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
		Crossing into the U.S. Now, I've heard of the Mexicans firing across the border.
		We've had a lot of disputes and controversy about that, but I haven't heard of them actually coming onto U.S. territory.
		That would be a new one.
unidentified		Yeah, he had an official, and I'm sorry I don't have his name, but he had an official from the Border Patrol that he interviewed this evening.
		And this man said that on three different occasions in the last, ooh, I can't remember, three years, I think.
		Don't quote me on that.
		But the most recent one was this past Friday.
		And if I remember correctly, the Indian reservation down there had called a Border Patrol because these people were encroaching on them.
		And Border Patrol went down there, and they actually shot at the officer that was there, shot the back window out of his vehicle.
		And I mean, he was leaving.
		Once he started shooting, he was getting out of there.
		But I haven't read anything about it, heard anything about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nor have I until just now.
unidentified		The night before, he talked to a congressman from Colorado, and he was outraged that this has not hit the press.
		Well, I wonder if it's true.
		Well, the congressman was pretty adamant.
		I think he had the information necessary, and this man this evening from the Border Patrol.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anything about the motivation of why?
unidentified		Speculation.
unidentified		They are speculating that that's because they're protecting the drug runners down there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, anything is possible.
		They certainly have enlisted the help of the Mexican Army in the past.
		There's no question about it.
		Corruption is pretty vast in Mexico.
		I mean, it's the way that business is done down there.
		And throughout several other countries, I might add, south of our border, that's the way business is done.
		So it could be that.
		but that would be if true you know extremely to just one more thing we need to worry about right along with everything else that we've got going right now uh...
		we need to be in worrying about our work We need to worry about our border anyway.
		Our borders.
		And we've got an awful lot of miles of borders.
		My God, there's a lot of borders.
		And they didn't find Chandra Levy until just today.
		i just like can't believe that i again i don't know how many of you are with me on this book They went over them with a fine-tooth comb and dogs and people and hundreds of people searching.
		And then a guy walking a dog finds the body just about completely decomposed.
		I don't know.
		Maybe that's just the way it happened.
		Amazing things do occur.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
		All right, Bill.
		That would be true.
		Yes, turn your radio off, please.
unidentified		On my way.
		What the lady was just talking about is absolutely true.
		It was on the news today.
		I live in Tucson.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you hear anything about the motivation of why?
unidentified		No, I didn't catch that part.
unidentified		It was also on Bill O'Reilly today.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		One other thing I was going to ask you about, I thought you lived somewhere around Searchlight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		No, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So get out a map and look for Perump, Nevada.
unidentified		Okay, because I just a few days ago drove through Searchlight as I was safe.
unidentified		Laughlin's got a hospital closer than Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, if you were in Searchlight, but I'm not.
unidentified		I don't know why I thought you were in Searchlight area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
		Check a map.
		We're about 65 miles west of Las Vegas, closer to Death Valley, actually.
unidentified		Gotcha.
		Okay.
		Instead of driving back through, we drove over Hoover Dam on the way back to Laughlin on our vacation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's an interesting drive, isn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's an interesting road.
unidentified		Yeah, that's definitely interesting.
unidentified		There's no doubt about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir.
		Thank you very much for the call.
		Have a good morning.
		It is, as a matter of fact, because of the terrorism at various times, they've had that road closed.
		But it is a very interesting drive.
		When it's open, it's a windy, curvy, wild road.
		And in the old days, it would have been a really fun road to take with a sports car, you know, at a good speed.
		But of course, we don't do that kind of thing anymore, right?
		From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
		Open lines next half hour, and then a most incredible story.
		Most incredible story, maybe in the world, coming up.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		The trip back in time continues with Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM.
		More somewhere in time coming up.
		Strange world desire Make foolish people I I never dreamed that I'd need somebody like you.
		I never dreamed that I'd lose somebody like you No, I don't wanna fall in love No, I don't wanna fall in love
		With you.
		without my woman.
		For Good morning, Christmas sunshine.
		Now we take you back to the past on Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, those are true words they're singing.
		Where would I be without my woman?
		Good morning, everybody.
		By the way, I never got to see whether our friend took the header off the building.
		I later understood people calling last night and saying, you know, he's going to jump off a building.
		And I said, well, then he's going to squish.
		And it turns out he's going to jump into cardboard boxes or something from about 20 stories up or more.
		And I didn't get to see it.
		And I wonder if it came out all right.
		I presume it did, or it would have been a news story indeed.
		More in a moment.
		Open lines through the top of the hour.
unidentified		Open lines through the top of the hour.
		You are listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		tonight featuring coast to coast a.m.
		from May 22nd 2002 Wonder where they find guys who can talk that fast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, anyway, here we go.
		A couple of items that have been computer blasted to me here.
		John Boyd, Muscle Shoals, Alabama says, heard about the border dispute today with Mexico.
		If we can't keep Mexican military generals who are corrupt from firing on border patrol, how secure are our borders to terrorists?
		Well, John Boy, you've answered your own question.
		They're not.
		We have so many miles of border with Mexico and with Canada that the answer to your question is obvious.
		They're not secure.
		And I'm not going to run over the whole thing I did last night, but as far as I'm concerned, and I've thought this through pretty carefully, one more big terrorist incident, and there's only one way to handle it.
		And that's to meet force with force.
		You meet force with force.
		If you have people arriving at your borders with murderous intent, and that's what we've got, then you act.
		You act.
		And what I'm referring to is the use of nuclear weapons.
		You don't screw around.
		You just don't screw around.
		This can't be our future.
		Suicide bombers, buildings collapsing because airplanes are floating into them, poison chemicals, all the rest of it.
		It can't be our future.
		That's no sort of future for us and for our children.
		So sometimes you've just got to do what you've got to do.
		And the Bakaw Valley in southern Lebanon, perhaps the Pakistan-Afghan border area where we know there's a lot of rats, certainly Iraq where they're building things to destroy us by the millions.
		Kaboom.
		Nuclear devices going off.
		That's what I see.
		That's the way I see it getting settled.
		And I took, you should have seen some of the messages I got today, you can imagine.
		But I say, this is it.
		We don't screw around with them.
		And we don't face, I don't want to face a lifetime of terror for myself and my children and their children, growing worse, more dire all the time, mass destruction of people in cities.
		Uh-uh.
		No, Sir, we have the power.
		We have not used it since the Second World War.
		We know what it means.
		We know how horrible it is.
		And still, having thought that out and knowing all of that and knowing how it might disturb the world, the sensibilities of the world, that we would do such a thing, I say that's our only answer.
		That's what it's going to come to.
		And I hope before a lot more people die.
		On the first time, caller line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		That's a hard topic to follow, Art.
		It's an honor talking to you.
		This is Grant calling from Largo, Florida, listening on 970 WFLA.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What a monster.
unidentified		It is.
		It's become a monster.
		I've seen it start and become so.
		What I'm calling about is an idea I have about storage of information in our brain.
		I have attempted to fast blast you, but I got some cookie notices.
		I'm not sure if they went through or not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, when you get a cookie notice, that means you're trying to do it too quickly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've got to wait like, I forget what it says every half hour or whatever.
unidentified		Oh, okay.
		Well, here's my thought.
		Instead of the brain being used to store all our information and operating system, RAM, and hard drive, how about if the brain is just the RAM and the operating system and the hard drive is remote somewhere and we're communicating with it constantly, interdimensionally or interdimensionally?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then that would mean it would have the capability of producing essentially the matrix.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, it could be broadcast to all of us, our environment, everything could really be from the master hard drive.
unidentified		You know, that's the possibility, but I was going a different way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Moreover, whoever is up there in charge of the hard drive, they may be getting really fed up with what's going on down here, and they may be reaching for the reset button right now.
unidentified		Well, that's the point.
		I call it a psychic modem, and I think that the idea that we are all inputting to this big thing, I do believe that the people are unique and that everybody is inputting to this.
		And then unfortunately, what's going in, you know, garbage in, garbage out.
		And it's just a thought.
		And I do have a personal website I'd like you to see.
		I certainly won't mention it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That'll be sufficient, and I'll certainly go take a look.
		As you well know, we don't give out URLs on the air.
		Yeah, well, you know, if it's a hard drive up there, then maybe they're just getting close to the format command.
		You know, they've already got it printed out, and what we'll call the creator's hand is reaching over for the enter button.
		That's all we say enter, and then our hard drive is the hollow deck becomes empty.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		This is Rick.
		I'm calling from the Jewel of the Southern San Joaquin Valley, Bakersfield, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		We're listening on KNZR 1560 News Radio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
unidentified		And I had a couple quick comments here.
		One on the problems of the Mexican border.
		What I heard on the radio earlier today was that they have documented 117 incidents like this in the past 10 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know there have been many in which they fired across the border.
unidentified		Not actually.
		However, they also said it's been a priority of the Clinton administration and also of the Bush administration to suppress this.
		They don't want it to blow up and be something negative in public opinion.
		So it has been going on.
		Today, it was a Humvee, and it was Mexican Army, but a lot of these incidents have involved Mexican federal police as well.
		So they speculated, of course, it's either drugs or people being smuggled, and they're giving them protection across the border.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, they're probably right.
		It's one of the two.
		Those are the two big businesses that go across the border, right?
unidentified		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		People and drugs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what goes across the border.
unidentified		And I had another question.
		How would I find out where I can get you guys when there's a Dodger game on?
		Because this station, the Dodgers preempt everybody.
		I guess that's part of their contract.
		It is, it is part of their contract.
		And actually, the station here replays the first couple of hours of the show after the show ends, so I can usually get the beginning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're perhaps answering your own question.
		And then, of course, you can also go and get a CC radio.
		And you can attempt to pluck a station from thousands of miles away, which you'll find you can easily do.
		So those are the ways you can go.
		I know.
		The Dodgers.
		Boy, I can remember when I used to work at KDWN in Las Vegas, now our affiliate in Las Vegas, the Dodgers would occasionally have a game from hell.
		That's what I would call it anyway, because I would always be depending on coming on.
		And, you know, when the Dodgers would push, why I would push.
		And they played a 22-inning game.
		22 innings.
		Now, they would do this, seemed to me, about twice a year.
		They get into some really incredible game.
		22 innings.
		And I forget when I finally got on the air, but it was probably around 2 o'clock in the morning, something like that, Pacific time.
		Oh, they can play.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hello.
		Hello?
		Hi.
		First of all, I hope your wife and your soulmate is on the mend.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A little better tonight.
unidentified		Good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		And I have one the same.
		She's my sweetheart.
		Anyway, I wanted to tell you or talk to you about I used to have a dream as a kid that somehow I was in a khaki uniform.
		I could only see through my eyes, right?
		Just I couldn't see myself, but I could see my hands and everything.
		And I figured that it was sometime during the Pacific War, during World War II.
		I used to tell my dad, who had fought in Europe about things, that he went, how the hell do you know that?
		I said, Well, I don't know.
		Well, anyway, as time went by, my mother, and it was my mother, brother, and father, and my brother died, and my mother was adamant that I not go overseas, being sole surviving son.
		Well, after she died, my father signed the papers.
		I went over with a SITS of 46, hooked up with the Ameri-Cal Division in 68, 69, and was on a place up by Kwangnim, Kwang Tin Province, and we got overran.
		No war stories, but there were only 14 of us.
		But during the heights of everything, I heard my mother's voice as clear as a bell, and that's why I wanted to mention this, about if there are spirits.
		I heard her voice, clear as a bell, saying, you're going to be all right.
		Go this way.
		And I did.
		And out of 14, well, I was wounded, but out of 14, I was one of four of them that actually was able to walk off the hill.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a war story, all right.
unidentified		Yeah, and I've never, never, ever heard her voice again.
		Never.
		And I often wonder, well, you know, why.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just one thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At the time that it happened, was there any question at all, any question in your mind, even instantly, did I just really hear my mother or did I produce that in my mind?
unidentified		Well, you know, I've thought about that time and time again.
		And no, it was my mother's voice.
		She was from England originally.
		And it was her voice just as clear, as clear as a bell.
		And I didn't know which way to go.
		Well.
		And she said, go this way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, then you add to the evidence then.
		I don't know what to tell you.
		It really, really seems to appear.
		You see, there's a really good example of a contemporary event.
		A lot of times we argue about whether ghosts or spirits or those who are departed, who in some way communicate with us, are just endless tape loops or whether they're really conscious spirits that at some stressful, incredible moment like that get through to tell us what to do.
		Or, you know, could it have been inside his own brain?
		He certainly didn't think so, did he?
		So there must be a hereafter, and there must be a continued consciousness that adds to that evidence.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
		Hello?
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, ma'am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Oh, yes.
unidentified		Listen, when will Ed Dames be on again?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As a matter of fact, you know, it's like within the next couple of weeks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know he's coming on.
unidentified		Well, one more thing I wanted to ask you.
		I've been wanting to find this out for some time.
		You play a song on your program every now and then, and it starts out with Uga Uga Uga.
		Let's have another cup of wine.
		Do you know the name of it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I should.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't think you've quite got the words in sequence.
unidentified		Well, no, it starts with Uga Uga Uga.
		That's how it starts out.
		And then the phone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it Uga Chucka?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uga Chuka, Uga Chukka?
unidentified		Something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If it's Uga Chaka, well, then I know what it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I'll dredge it out and play it for you before the night ends.
unidentified		Okay, and I wanted to tell you, too, I hope you and your wife have better health.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's been quite a year, huh?
unidentified		It certainly has.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank God put his foot down, sir.
unidentified		Okay, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
unidentified		Bye-bye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, wait, one more thing.
		You were asking about Ed Dames with respect to the Chandra Levy camp.
		i want to ask you a question do you at all odd well that that that the group her remains uh...
unidentified		I just somehow feel that, you know, he said that her body was thrown in the Potomac River.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, of course.
		But what I'm recalling, ma'am, is that they searched every square inch of those parks, like again and again and again.
		I saw armies of people and dogs.
		How could they have missed it?
unidentified		Well, the only thing is, unless someone had had her there before when they found out that they were searching, they took her body out and brought her back in again after they figured they weren't going to look in there anymore.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, anything in the world is possible.
		Thank you very much.
		Yeah, who knows?
		Maybe the body was.
		Maybe the remains were moved.
		Maybe.
		Because I find it so hard to believe that they could have missed it.
		I mean, I remember watching every single day on the news, just bands and bands of people, you know, arm's length from each other searching these parks with dogs that, you know, are trained to find human remains.
		They really are.
		And they're very, very good at it.
		And there's just something wrong with this story.
		First time call our line, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Well, good morning, Art.
unidentified		I'm glad to get you here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Great, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn your radio off, please.
unidentified		I just did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're obviously on the road someplace.
unidentified		Okay, well, I just pulled up to the side of the road.
		It's been a fact.
		Perfect timing.
		I just listened to the first FM broadcast, and it sounds perfect.
		I love it.
		I listen to AM all over the place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, roughly?
unidentified		Okay, it's right outside of Gainesville, Florida, and I-75 right now, but I live in Bright, Colorado.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we have quite a few, actually, FM affiliates across the country.
		You'll run into them every now and then.
		More and more FM stations are deciding that people like talk much better at night.
unidentified		Absolutely.
unidentified		Well, you've been my second seat here for a long, long time, for many years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, what's up beyond that?
unidentified		I was listening to you yesterday, tried to get in yesterday, and you were talking about striking back with a nuclear strike.
		Well, you know, that's very interesting.
		I feel much the same way for terrorists.
		Like, if they strike us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, the alternative, sir, and I've said it, and let me say it again: is that us and our children and their children will face increasing terror.
		They'll face increasing losses of their freedom as we try and deal with it by clamping down and getting to be a police state.
		Believe me, they'll erode the Bill of Rights.
		All kinds of horrible things will happen, including what the terrorists do to us and more.
unidentified		Well, we ought to be feared, and no one fears the United States anymore.
unidentified		We have power, but it seems like the politicians are afraid to use it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I agree with you.
		I mean, there are not many instances in which I would, but in this instance, if we are hit again, we should use our own weapons of mass destruction.
		And we shouldn't use them on cities.
		We don't need to do that.
		We can, I think, make a really good demonstration in basically unpopulated areas, at least by innocent civilians.
		There are always going to be some killed.
		But basically, there are areas in, for example, southern Lebanon that can be targeted, the Pakistani-Afghan border that can definitely be targeted, and certainly in Iraq.
		In all those areas, we could use nuclear weapons, I believe.
unidentified		Absolutely.
unidentified		By the way, how does my evil cell phone sound right now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a little evil.
		What happened is they took this giant step backward.
		Cell phones actually used to sound better when they were analog.
		When they went digital, then people started to sound like they were underwater.
		And the cell phones sold us, cell phone companies sold us as Bill of Goods.
		It's so much better.
unidentified		Mine does both.
unidentified		Mine does both analog and digital.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but the nation is like 80% digital now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it's mostly going to go digital.
unidentified		Okay, one more thing before I go.
		Yes.
		I subscribed to your newsletter about a month ago, and I haven't received it yet.
		And I really, really want to see it.
		I bought it actually for a present for my wife for Mother's Day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it'll certainly be on the way.
		We've had very, very good luck.
		Sometimes it does take a while to process, but I guarantee you will certainly begin to get it, and you'll get the back issues, too.
unidentified		Great.
		Well, I'm glad to get it anyway.
		Well, I will get it anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's on the way, trust me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've had very, very few cases of any problems out there.
unidentified		Okay, I'm eagerly waiting for it, and I'll let you go.
		And keep up the good work, and you're like a constant company every night.
		I love it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, and take care.
		Have a safe time on the road.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air without a lot of time here at the top of the hour.
		Hello.
		Hey, Art.
		Turn your radio off, please.
unidentified		Excuse me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn your radio off, please.
unidentified		No, my new headset was working so good.
		Okay.
		Anyway, I started to hear about your wife.
		One thing before my question, that a lot of things that trigger asthmatic things are stress.
		I think the news of what's been going on probably might have stressed her out, maybe triggered that, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, that could be.
		But likely, sir, she was suffering a fever, you know, 100, 100 and a half, 102 in that range.
		So that's very likely the trigger.
		Very, very likely.
		Listen, I've got a scoot.
unidentified		Okay, one thing, the email, the Chinese are going to a manned mission to the moon before 2005.
unidentified		I sent you an email on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I heard they're looking at that, and they're even looking at Mars.
		And what are we doing?
		We're pretty much in low Earth orbit.
		Sad, huh?
		Maybe we'll get some cojonies and aim toward the stars one of these days soon.
		I'm Art Bell.
		What a story coming up.
unidentified		You are listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from May 22nd, 2002.
		Once upon a time, once when you were alive, I remember those times reflected in your life.
		Thank you.
		through the night.
		Thank you.
		You are listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time, tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from May 22nd, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the events of 9-11 are ingrained as heavily in the American mind as anything for this entire generation will likely be.
		only got a wonder what's ahead still in all these events uh...
		to our children and our grandchildren will be seen on videos and probably three d vision or whatever they have by then you know these events uh...
		were They changed our nation.
		They changed us probably forever.
		Big event coming up in a moment is a man, Richard Picciotto, New York Fire Department Battalion Commander.
		Actually, he was the highest-ranking firefighter to survive the collapse of the World Trade Center.
		Pitch, he's called, I guess, is a 28-year veteran of the New York City Fire Department.
		For the past nine years, he's Presided over Fire Department New York's Battalion 11, covers Manhattan's Upper West Side.
		In 1993, as a battalion commander assigned to Lower Manhattan, he was the second chief on the scene immediately following the first attack on the World Trade Center, coordinating operations and rescue efforts in the North Tower.
		It was there, under those frontline circumstances, that he became keenly aware with the building's entire layout, the substructure of the World Trade Center complex, an insight that indeed served him very well on September 11, 2001.
		It's an amazing, amazing story you're about to hear.
unidentified		Dramatic Music
		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from May 22, 2002.
		Music Richard, it is an honor to have you on the show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you like to be called Pitch?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that better?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Pitch is good, Rich, Chief, whatever you're comfortable with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know.
		Let's see as we go.
		First of all, it is an absolute honor to have you on the program.
		I really mean that.
		It's such an honor to have you on the program.
		Thank you for having me.
		Are you still active or are you retired now?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I'm what's called light duty.
		I'm probably going to retire in a few months.
		I burnt my eyes.
		They're better, but I tore my rotator cuff on September 11th, also my shoulder.
		And they're looking to operate on my shoulder.
		And I don't know if, you know, because of 29 years and 51 years old, I don't know if they'll let me come back after something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're 51 now?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		29 years with the fire department.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		29 years, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		Well, you know what?
		Sounds to me like you've got a really good retirement ahead of you.
		Maybe an operation and a little bit of baloney, but then you've got a lot of years ahead of you.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, I'm planning to enjoy it.
		I'm planning to enjoy the rest of my life.
		I have a new perspective on things, and that's what I want to do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I bet the whole thing did give you a totally new perspective, didn't it?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it sure has.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we'll talk more about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You were in, actually, you were involved in, in what way, in the first attack on the World Trade Center, you know, the explosion?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Right, in 1993.
		I was one of the first on the scene in 93.
		I was a newly promoted chief back in 93, and I was stationed down in lower Manhattan.
		When I got there, there were just, I think, two other units on the scene.
		I got there in the initial stages.
		And the bomb that went off actually went off in the hotel that was attached to the World Trade Center.
		But a lot of the blast blasted through five floors and went into the lobby of the hotel, which is right next to the World Trade Center.
		It was a lobby that was opened, and the smoke was cascading through the lobby and also through the elevator bags.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were they trying with that explosion to knock that building down?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Definitely.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Definitely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why did it not come down?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Explosion just wasn't big enough.
		It was a big explosion, which, like I said, destroyed five of the floors.
		But it wasn't big enough because the World Trade Center is a huge complex.
		It wasn't big enough to bring it down at that time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's amazing in itself.
		It really is.
		Was it not, it's simply a matter of size.
		If it had been bigger and still in the same place, or could it have been more strategically placed and have brought the building down?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I think if it was bigger or more than one, the possibility would have been there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So after all of that, and I guess you were, what, in on the investigation of the whole thing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What did you do in 93?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		93, when I got there, which was different from this time, smoke enveloped the whole building because the bomb went off in the sub-basement.
		Smoke filled the whole North Tower.
		So the evacuation was, it took a lot longer, and people were panicking a little bit more because almost everyone that was coming down had to come through the smoke.
		This time, in the North Tower, the plane hit on the 93rd floor, and anyone below that came down in relatively clean air.
		And they were able to proceed much faster because they weren't coming down in the smoke.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, the estimates of the number of people who were in the World Trade Centers when this all happened was really high.
		I mean, I think I remember 50,000 or more, they said at first.
		Do you have any idea how many people on September 11th really were in those buildings?
		Does anybody know?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I really don't think anyone knows.
		The security system is they don't track each individual person.
		They just track people coming in.
		They make sure they have security going in, and that's after September 11th.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So there'd just be like maybe an average for that kind of thing?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		It was early in the morning.
		The estimates I heard were anywhere from 25,000 to 30,000 people were in the building.
		It could be up to 50,000 during the peak when people are coming in.
		But the first attack happened a little bit before 9 o'clock so some people were still on their way getting to work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where were you actually when the first plane hit?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		When the first plane hit, I was in my in the flyhouse on the Upper West Side on 100th Street.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you know I this is something to ask since you were involved in what happened in 93 did you expect I mean you must have known at that point they wanted that building.
		They wanted to knock that building down.
		So did you expect another attack?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I expected that there was going to be other attacks of terrorism in this country.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I don't know if I really expected that there'd be another attack on the World Trade Center.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That they would try again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You didn't?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		That they would try again, especially not in the same fashion because they closed the parking lots, the public parking lot.
		What they did the last time is they just drove a panel truck filled with a bomb, fertilizer, and they just parked it in the parking lot underneath the World Trade Center.
		That's been closed off.
		You're not allowed to do that anymore.
		There's no public parking in the trade center.
		So that, after it was eliminated from them, obviously they had other ways of doing it like they did.
		I don't think anyone foresaw that hijacked planes would run into the trade center.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's a big argument going on about that right now, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But really, I sure didn't think about it, and I'm sure a lot of other people didn't think about it, and obviously you weren't thinking that was going to happen.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I heard some of the harrowing tape.
		There was tape made of fire department radio traffic on that day, and it circulated on the internet, and I heard it, and it was absolutely incredible.
		So I suppose you were in that early radio traffic?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
		A couple of things happened.
		We have a few different channels.
		I don't know what tape you heard.
		We have a few different channels.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure you do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the channel I was listening to included that poor lady who was screaming for help.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so that's something different again.
		That's the phone conversations to the dispatcher.
		They haven't been released as far as I know.
		I'm sure there are copies of certain ones out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's chilling.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		There were people above, you know, on the fire floor, stuck above, and the immediate minutes after smoke was coming up, heat was coming up, and they couldn't get down.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		And they were doing what they were trying to do, calling 911 or the fire department and asking for help.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think most people in the building even understood what had just happened?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		No, probably not.
		Probably not.
		They're in their office.
		All of a sudden, their office shakes and immediately fills up with smoke.
		They probably thought an explosion happened somewhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then people on other floors, would they have thought you supposed earthquake or bombed since one went off before?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe they would have thought bomb.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think people in the World Trade Center were to into a bomb being there because of 93.
		And then that's what happened, too.
		When the plane hit the North Tower, people immediately in the South Tower started evacuating.
		At one point, they say, you know, it's before I was out there, some building personnel told the people in the South Tower that it was okay to stay because the emergency was in the North Tower.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you know that to be a true story?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't.
		But I think it happened.
		I don't know firsthand because I didn't talk to anyone firsthand that heard that.
		But from what I heard, most people ignored it.
		And then when the fire department got on the scene, we overruled it and told people, just, you know, we issued an order to evacuate both towers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long did it take you to get to the scene from the first moment you heard?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		It probably took me, I'm on 100th Street, and this is in Lower Manhattan.
		So it's probably a good, you know, 12 to 15 miles.
		The streets were clear, the cross traffic was clear.
		The police had the streets cleared.
		We're going down in lights and sirens.
		Sure.
		So it probably took me, I don't know, around 10 minutes, give or take a few.
		We were going down there real fast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was the radio traffic accurate?
		In other words, was radio traffic reflecting the fact that a plane had hit the building?
		Was everybody clear on that at that point?
		Or was that unknown still?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		No, that was pretty clear right from the start because they had another chief, Joe Pfeiffer, who was down there doing a training exercise.
		He actually saw it.
		He saw a first plane hit because the first plane came in so low, it was, you know, especially jets.
		No plane flies over New York City that low.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, of course.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Because it's a no-fly zone.
		And when the plane flew that low and that fast, it made a lot of noise.
		So people looked up to see what was going on.
		It was buzzing them.
		And then they saw it.
		He actually saw it go in.
		So he gave a second alarm on arrival and then respotted down there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When the first plane hit, I guess you could perhaps imagine the plane was in distress and it was an accident?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or did you immediately click into, no, no, no, we're being attacked?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I clicked into immediately that it was a deliberate act.
		I was 99% sure that it was a terrorist act.
		1% that it could have just been a stray person trying to commit suicide.
		But I just knew it wasn't an accident.
		And I knew it was a deliberate act.
		And I was almost positive it was terrorist right from the start.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, how many men were in your command?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I have seven firehouses on the Upper West Side.
		Each one of them has approximately six guys on duty at any given time.
		And so approximately 42, 45 people on duty.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		That's a lot of them that were on duty.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a lot of responsibility that were on duty at that moment.
unidentified		Right.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		And plus, what happened, it was the change of shift.
		So we had guys getting off duty, too.
		And when they saw it, they jumped on the fire trucks and went down, too.
		So we had a lot of off-duty guys that were just getting off, go down there.
		Like one of my companies lost one of the guys that was just getting off duty, and he went down anyway.
		So the whole fire department that day, we lost 343 guys.
		I believe approximately 70 of them were off-duty.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My God.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Coming from home or just getting off-duty and being in the firehouse.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You said you arrived pretty quickly because the police had the streets pretty much in order.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you got there, what did it look like?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		That was horrendous.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		When I got there, both towers were in flames because the second plane had hit by that time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, tremendous amount of smokes.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		People were streaming from the buildings and people were jumping from the upper floors.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're a fireman, so your first, I would think your first assessment when you arrive on a scene would be, you know, strategically, how do we go at this?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
		I was thinking of that as soon as I saw it.
		I saw it like most people on television when it first happened, turned on television, saw the first tower.
		And from that point on, I'm saying, you know, what do we do?
		If we're down there, what do we actually do?
		From the beginning, it was almost impossible to put out a fire of that magnitude in a high-rise building.
		If a plane, if a jet like that crashed in the middle of a field next to a lake that we had an unlimited water supply, it would still be tough to put the fire out because it's jet fuel burns, very intense.
		You know, you could surround and protect the exposures, but actually putting the fire out would be a very daunting task.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Still, as you start to assess what to do, what did you decide?
		What went through your head?
		I mean, do we try to get this fire out, get people out?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Get people out and contain the fire.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Instead of putting it out, just contain it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Contain it.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Hopefully, what I was thinking on the way down and even as I was going up the stairs, if we could possibly, if the stairwells are still intact, that the plane didn't pierce one of the stairwells, one of the three, we could try to contain, just, you know, contain that stairwell, beat the flyer back, you know, have one stairwell, at least one stairwell viable that people could get down and we could get up to try to help them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so you imagined actually going up there as far as you could go with hoses and fighting it.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		right there that's basically what we were doing when i got this uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		so you had farm in there with Well, I got up to the 35th floor of the North Tower.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		That's the first tower that was hit, and that was hit on the 93rd floor.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		So I don't know because I wasn't up there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long did it take you to get up to the, you said 35th floor, right?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was taken.
		I had a few responsibilities on the way up.
		When I got to the lobby command post, they initially told me that we had people trapped and hurt on two floors, on the 21st floor and the 25th floor.
		So I took a company and I went to them floors first because that was my assignment.
		When I got there, there were a few people who needed help.
		They needed help, but they were already getting it by other firemen there.
		So once I saw that they were being taken care of, I continued further up.
		Every couple floors, I would step out of the stairwell into the hallway just to check conditions.
		And we're carrying, as a chief, I'm not carrying holes as a chief.
		I'm not carrying tools.
		I'm carrying flashlight and a bullhorn, but I have my bunker gear, and I'm also carrying the mask with the cylinders.
		So as a chief, I'm carrying approximately 60 pounds of equipment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you're making decisions about how to fight this.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		But the firemen are carrying about 100 pounds, and we're walking up the stairwell.
		So it's, you know, we're not running up.
		We're walking up.
		We're trying to pace ourselves.
		So when we get up there, we still have some energy left to work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've got to be in good shape to do what you do, right?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Without a doubt.
		Most firemen are very into physical fitness.
		They exercise pretty regularly.
		I do.
		Most of them do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so you made it up to the 35th with doing some things on the way and trying to figure out what to do and thinking about all this as you're going.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you get up as far as 35, and what happens?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		When I got out to the 35th, it was one of the floors where I stepped down into the hallway just to see what the conditions are.
		And it was like a staging area there.
		There were maybe 10, 12 firemen on the floor, just taking a rest, taking a breather on their way up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Chief, hold on.
		I guess Chief works for me.
		Chief, hold on.
		My guest, a fire chief, Richard Picchiotto.
		He was there.
		He came down, the building came down on him, and we'll be right back.
unidentified		This is Premier Networks.
		That was Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM.
		On this, somewhere in time.
		Premier Networks presents Art Bell somewhere in time tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from May 22nd, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest, Richard Picciotto, is a New York Fire Department battalion commander who was in the World Trade Center building when it came down.
		It came down on top of him, and he's lived to be here and talk about it and was on the scene very early on making decisions about what to do.
		We'll get right back to him.
		Stay right there.
unidentified		Scoffs
unidentified		Now, we take you back to the past on Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Chief, I'm curious, did you believe when you got up to the 35th floor that that building was going to come down?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		No, I wasn't thinking that way at that time.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then what were your thoughts about evacuating people?
		I understand.
		Your book, by the way, the name of your book, Last Man Down, boy, what a title.
		What a title for a book.
		Yikes.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I was, you know, as best, you know, I was the last man down, the last man to survive getting down.
		But when I was on the 35th floor, all of a sudden, I stepped out and this horrendous noise started.
		It was a powerful, like the most powerful noise that I ever heard up until that point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What kind of noise?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		It sounded like something was literally crashing through the building I was in, floor by floor, from above, like a huge boulder or a bomb was dropped and was just crashing through the floors.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		The building was shaking.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		You know, this is the North Tower shaking and the rumbling and something was approaching us very fast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was, in fact, the collapse coming.
unidentified		That was the, what was the collapse of the South Tower?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, of the South Tower.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Nothing was happening in the North Tower other than just the rumble from the building next to it collapsing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so you felt that like it was your own building.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Right, I would have sworn something was happening in my building because the building was shaking and the noise was incredible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so at this point, you're trying to decide, are we evacuating or what are we doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How are you making that decision?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, at this point, we just kind of froze.
		It was just such a powerful destructive force, sound that was coming.
		We just froze.
		It took 10 seconds for the South Tower to collapse.
		So this tremendous noise is going on, and 10 seconds later, there's a deathly silence.
		When that building did collapse, it wiped out our command post.
		It wiped out our communication truck.
		A lot of communications were bad to begin with, but now they were just about non-existent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you mean you weren't getting information about what just happened?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Right, nothing at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, did you think, Chief, that that was the other building going down?
		Did that flash?
		No, so you thought it was something in your own building?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I thought it was something in my own building.
		I thought something was cascading through the floor.
		What I actually thought was maybe some elevator cars broke loose and they were tumbling down the elevator shaft.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I can see how you'd think that.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		But it was something more powerful than that.
		But that's all I could really think of.
		And I was calling.
		I was calling, what was that?
		And I was on the radio saying, something major just happened in this building.
		Does anyone know what it was?
		And one of the responses back, like I said, our radios were very sketchy.
		They don't work very well at all in high-rise.
		But one of the responses back is that the tower fell.
		And when I heard that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Meaning the other tower.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what they meant.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		But I thought maybe they're talking about radio towers on top of the building or a water tower.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, so people understand there's various modes and channels of communication.
		Some involve repeaters.
		You said there was a repeater truck nearby.
		And then there, of course, on other buildings, probably on the World Trade Center itself, there is repeaters.
		I don't know where the fire department had their repeaters.
		Maybe on another high-rise in New York, but somewhere around you had repeaters.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Right, and they would, well, the World Trade Center had them, but they were destroyed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But then you also had simplex channels, what are called simplex channels, unit-to-unit channels.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I presume that's what you were probably talking to somebody on a fairly close floor.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		That's what exactly was happening.
		Sometimes you can hear someone far away.
		Usually the closer the better.
		But in high-rise buildings with all that steel and electrical equipment, a lot of times you just can't transmit to the lobby or outside.
		Sometimes you can.
		Sometimes you pick up transmissions.
		Sometimes you don't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you were really blind.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		So we did finally pick up a transmission that the tower came down, the whole building came down.
		So at that point, a few things flashed through my mind.
		the first thing is i realized that there were hundreds of firemen in that south tower um and i lost you know i immediately lost a lot of friends a lot of people who i know along with a lot of civilians died um then my I suppose the psychology was that, you know, like the Titanic, it just can't happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This building is not going to come, these buildings are not going to come down.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Right, right.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		And that's, you know, that was some people's view.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it's understandable.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And well, you know, we never had a collapse of a high-rise building in the history of New York or to that extent, I don't think, in the history of the world.
		So it was something that was, you know, I won't say it wasn't considered because we did consider, you know, people were considering the effect of that heat on the metal structure of the building.
		What they were considering as an isolated collapse, a couple floors maybe collapsing.
		I don't think anyone considered the pancake collapse that actually did happen, the total devastation that happened.
		That wasn't considered in the initial stages.
		Later on, it was being considered by some of the chiefs down in the command post or the new makeshift command post.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Some terrorist somewhere must have had an extremely good structural engineer who knew exactly the way those towers were put together and exactly how much heat would be generated from the jet fuel that would be burning and what would happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think they knew all that?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They don't.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I think it was dumb luck.
		I think they drove a plane into the building.
		They wanted to cause a lot of destruction.
		They wanted to kill the people from the fire and from the smoke.
		I don't think they thought that the buildings were going to collapse.
		If they did, you know, they're smarter than I give them credit for.
		I think it was just like these suicide bombers, you know, they just wanted the immediate impact of what they did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		yeah uh you you were not in the you You were not on the 35th floor when this building, when your building collapsed, were you?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		No.
		Then what happened, once I realized that the building indeed had collapsed, my attention now turned towards the building I'm in.
		Of course.
		My mind started racing different things.
		What caused the building to collapse?
		We had reports of more planes inbound.
		We had reports that the Pentagon was hit.
		So at this point, I knew we were under attack.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you knew all that.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		And I thought a bomb went off.
		I thought a bomb brought the building down.
		I was going back to 1993 and saw the devastation the bomb did and said, well, you know, they got a more sophisticated bomb or a few bombs and they took the building down.
		And then I said, well, they probably have the same plans for the North Tower, the tower I was in.
		So we already evacuated most of the civilians out in the North Tower.
		The North Tower was the first tower hit.
		So I gave the order to evacuate, to get all the rescue workers out, all the firemen out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hard decision to make?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		It was.
		It was the hardest decision.
		I mean, it crossed my mind, and I made it.
		You know, I was trying to get direction first, you know, calling to the command post that wasn't there, asking for direction.
		They weren't there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		And the decision fell to me because I'm a chief, and I was there, and I had to make the call.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You were the highest in command there.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		I thought about it for a second, and then this is what I tell chiefs and officers.
		You know, you have to go with your gut feeling, especially with life and death situations.
		You don't have the luxury of time.
		Time is, you know, time is what it is.
		You know, with life and death situations, every second counts.
		So I gave the order to evacuate.
		Told the firemen, drop their masks, drop their tools, drop their equipment, and get out.
		When we're doing an evacuation, we want to get out of the building as fast as possible.
		If we could go back later and retrieve our equipment, we'll do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, once you make that decision, then there's nothing else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's just go.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And that's it.
		And that's why it's a big decision, because we've had literally hundreds of people working their way up.
		And when I make that call, they stop and now they're working their way down.
		That's what happened for the people who heard.
		Because I gave it over to radio.
		And I also had a bullhorn.
		I went to all three stairwells and yelled up the stairwells to try to get people that were further up to make sure they heard it or hope that they heard it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have any idea how many did hear it?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I know a lot of people heard it.
		We got a couple hundred people out.
		I've talked to a lot of people who heard it and said thank God they heard it because they didn't know what was going on.
		There were people above me.
		I was on the 35th floor.
		There were people above me.
		I don't know how high the fly even got because I wasn't up there, but I do know there was some high than 35 into the 40s that heard the order and they evacuated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you started making your own way down, right?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
		And what I was doing...
		I was going down the stairwell, and because now everyone's going down the same, you know, the three stairwells, It was, you know, we weren't running, we were just orderly going down.
		And I was trying to clear every floor on the way down, being, you know, literally being the last man down.
		I didn't want to leave anyone behind on any floor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God, that's a lot of territory to cover.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Those are big floors.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Well, they're big floors, but there's two hallways.
		It's like an intersecting, like a T hallway.
		Right.
		And, you know, you can go down one, look, and go down the other one and just yell into the officers that are off the halls.
		And look, most of them are kind of open.
		You know, some of them were.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were you getting people?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were you running into people?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, a few people.
		Most of the people were leaving, but occasionally there were people still in their floors or at their desks.
		I ran into one guy at his desk.
		He was working at his computer, and I tell the story in the book how when I yelled to him, he put his hand up and told me he was doing something important.
		And I gave him an incredible look and yelled at him again, just, you know, we're leaving.
		Now, this is over an hour after a plane had hit his building.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My God.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		And he was typing away.
		I have no idea what he was doing.
		So I wasn't going to leave anyone back.
		So I yelled to him the second time to go.
		And he didn't even look at me the second time, just put his hand up to shake me off.
		So I marched over to him with a few firemen in tow, and I just grabbed him by the lapels, yanked him out of his seat, and kind of tossed him to the fireman and said, if he doesn't walk down the stairs, throw him down.
		He looked at me with this, I had a look in my eye that, and the firemen had looks in their eyes that they would have thrown him down.
		So he just scurried away, like incredible that anyone would dare touch him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's unbelievable.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, he's one of the guys I would love to meet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I take it you haven't since.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Because we came across a few things.
		I mean, I came across firemen that were reluctant to leave because some of them were slow going on their way up and their companies like, you know, were going a little faster than them.
		You know, they were taking a break and they wanted to wait till their company got down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, people not wanting to go down without their.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		And I just, you know, I wouldn't allow anyone.
		Everyone had to go down.
		You know, don't worry, your company's down.
		They went down a different stairway.
		I was just forcing everyone down.
		I came across a few Port Authority cops who wanted to go further up.
		They had one of their offices of their, you know, in the Port Authority, which the World Trade Center is a Port Authority building.
		And they were trying to get one of their directors of the Port Authority on an upper floor.
		And I told them, no, you know, this is a fire.
		I'm in charge here.
		You're going down.
		You've got to take your orders from me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're leaving.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In your mind, at this point, had you made the assumption this building was going to come down?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I thought the possibility was there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, obviously, after the other buildings down, you knew all that.
		You knew more planes on the way.
		You knew we were attacked.
		You knew quite a bit.
		So it wouldn't be so really out of line to believe the building possibly may come down.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Right, and that's what I thought.
		I said it could possibly come down.
		The other one came down.
		Whatever brought the other one down, I didn't know if it was, you know, like I said, I initially assumed it was a bomb, but it could have been a third plane hit or, you know, I didn't think that it was actually structural failure due to the flying, you know, the way it actually was.
		But, you know, it really didn't matter why it came down.
		The reason, you know, to me is it came down and this one could come down also.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So anyway, you're making your way down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're pulling people all the way.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Right, pushing up, you know, I wasn't going to let anyone stay behind on any floor, and I could say from the 35th floor on down, when we were at the floors, we left no one behind.
		I know there were people above us that were trickling down as we were going.
		So there were people above us, but they were trickling down the stairwell as we were going.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So how many were roughly with you, do you think?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Oh, there were hundreds because we talked about guys were still coming in, so there were I got up to the 35th, but there were a lot of people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But traveling down on your orders, there were hundreds.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
		There was three stairwells, and we were going down.
		Then, well, what happened, I got to about the 19th floor, and I was in the C stairwell at this point.
		There's three stairwells, A, B, and C. I was in the C stairwell, and all of a sudden we just stopped.
		It was like a log jam in the stairs, and I'm calling further down.
		I'm actually trying to push my way further down to tell God, people, keep on moving.
		Don't stop.
		Don't slow up.
		And I got down one or two flights more, you know, pushing through the people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		And the word filtered up that they couldn't proceed because there was debris in the stairwells.
		What happened when the south tower came down, a lot of debris entered the mezzanine area, that rubble, and filled up the stairwell that we were in.
		And it was impassable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, brother.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		It also filled up, we were in the C stairwell.
		The same thing happened to the A stairwell.
		You know, once I realized that happened, I got out onto the floor and ran to the other stairwell.
		It was the same thing.
		It was just clogged, not moving.
		So then I ran to the third stairwell, the B stairwell, and that was moving.
		But the B stairwell was closer to the core of the building.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, God.
		So there's only one stairwell on the back.
		Moving.
		So what do you do?
		You immediately start diverting the traffic from the other two to B?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I start diverting from A and C to B. I'm filtering people from them two stairwells to the B stairwell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So at this point, you're probably having to actually call people back up.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, and that's exactly what happened.
		Some people were coming up.
		Some people were waiting to go down.
		Some horrendous stories that I could go into how a company split because some of them tried to go down.
		Say a company was on the 15th floor, almost to the 15th floor.
		So they didn't want to go back up to the 16th to go down.
		So they're going to, you know, they're waiting for the 15th for that to clear out.
		But if they would have gone to the 16th, which a company split, one of the companies I know split, and some guys, you know, ran up to 16 and ran across on 16th to get to B and then went down B. And, you know, when I'm talking about a company, I'm talking about a company of firemen.
		Right.
		And half of the guys lived and half of them didn't.
		You know, that's the last they saw each other in one of the stairwells when they split, some guys, you know, going down different ways.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was the lowest floor that you made it to?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I personally made it to the sixth.
		That's, you know, when the I was on the sixth floor when the when this incredible noise, I talk about the incredible noise the first time.
		Now it was intensified a hundredfold.
		Incredible noise.
		You know, I said the building was shaken the first time, and it was.
		Now it was, you know, it was more than shaking.
		It was rumbling.
		It was tossing us from our feet.
		We were like ragdolls.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So did you know this building was coming down?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		At that point, yeah, I definitely knew what was happening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You told me it took about 10 seconds for the other tower to go.
		How many?
		You think about the same?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		It took eight seconds.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I had eight video seconds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Eight seconds.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Eight seconds.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		The North Tower, the tower that I was in, was 29 minutes later, 29 minutes after the South Tower collapsed, the North Tower collapsed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Eight seconds.
		Chief, hold on.
		We're at the top of the hour.
		We'll be right back.
		Eight seconds for that building to collapse on top of them.
		Now, I saw, like you all did, I saw the zillion tons of wreckage, and I would not imagine how anybody, anybody on the seventh floor or whatever could come out alive.
		We're going to find out how.
unidentified		The trip back in time continues with Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM.
		more somewhere in time coming up
		If you could read my mind, love, what a tale my thoughts could tell.
		Just like an old-time movie, about a ghost from a wish him well.
		In a castle dark or a fortress strong, with chains upon my feet, you know that ghost is me.
		And I will never be set free.
		As long as I'm a ghost, you can see.
		If I could read your mind, love, what a tale your thoughts could tell.
		Just like a paperback novel, the kind of drugstore sell.
		When you reach the part where the heartaches come, the hero would be me.
		The hero of the field.
		Now, we take you back to the past on Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest is a New York Fire Department Battalion Commander, the highest in command, one of the World Trade Center buildings, when it came down on top of him.
		That's exactly where we were in the story.
		Eight seconds it took that building to fall.
		Richard Piggiotto has written a book called Last Man Down.
		And that's in the literal sense.
		He was the last man down with the building.
		And we'll continue with that story.
		You might want to check out, you definitely might want to check out his book on my website.
		There'll be links over to Amazon.com and so forth.
		We'll get right back to, uh, to Richard.
unidentified		Thank you.
		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from May 22, 2002.
		Coast to Coast AM Okay, Chief, welcome back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, you know, here's this hundred times stronger sound crashing down from above.
		And you said later you found out it was eight seconds.
		I'm sure it seemed like more than that at the time.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		It's funny, something like that, how time freezes very fast and very slow at the same time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's like you freeze.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		While my mind was going a mile a minute, my mind was racing.
		My physical body, there's this fight-or-flight instinct.
		You try to run, but eight seconds, you really can't go that far.
		No.
		It takes a second to realize what's happening, a second to, you know, it's just like you didn't have enough time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you understand it was coming down on you?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
		Because the way it was, once I realized the other one came down, and it's actually funny because some of the guys that I was trapped with, we were, you know, I'll go into it in a minute, didn't realize that the first building had actually come down.
		The South Building came down.
		They never knew that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		So, you know, actually, that's, you know, one of these old, the old saying, ignorance is bliss.
		You know, that was, they didn't realize.
		I did.
		I knew the South Building came down, and then the way this noise was, the way the building was shaken, I mean, we were being tossed around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And logically, in your mind, you had to think, I'm going to die.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's the end.
		It's going to be, you know, it's going to happen.
		And basically, I thought it was going to happen quick, you know, and I was praying that it was going to happen quick.
		A lot of things flashed in front of your mind in that eight seconds.
		Like I said, that eight seconds, it's exceedingly fast and exceedingly slow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we've all, you know, everybody has seen the pictures a million times of that wreckage, and it does not seem possible to me that anybody, period, could have survived being inside that building when it came down.
		It just absolutely doesn't seem possible.
		Not even remotely plausible.
		Not even remotely.
		How could you have survived this?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Well, what happened is in the stairwell where we were, the stairwell stretches from a little bit above the lobby because where the lobby was was crushed, so a little bit above that, maybe half a floor above, till approximately almost the fifth floor of the C stairwell basically was intact.
		Now, it wasn't really intact, but it was semi-intact.
		It was filled with debris.
		It was black because it went black almost instantly.
		We lost lights and it was filled with debris, like the stairs were torn aside in some places.
		The landings weren't there.
		Some places they were.
		It was almost like a funnel or a cave.
		But in this one little air pocket or void were 12 firemen, myself being one of them.
		It was this woman, Josephine, which I didn't talk about before how I came across this group of people.
		If you want, I'll explain some of that.
		Yeah, sure.
		And this one Port Authority cop.
		We were all in this one void.
		We were the last people to leave, you know, getting out of the building.
		And we just happened to be in the right place at the right time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not understanding how the building came down around what you're calling a void.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I have a couple pictures.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I wish I, you know, I was here to show you that that pile of debris, you know, all the different piles of debris.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		In the interior of one of the piles of debris, the stairwell was, you know, remained.
		It was like a void.
		It was just like air pockets.
		We weren't all together.
		We couldn't see each other, but it was, you know, we could yell to each other, and we knew we were all there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And how much was on top of you?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		There was a lot on top of us, but what happened, most of the debris spread out, and I don't know if you saw pictures recently of that big excavation.
		The towers were sitting in the middle of this big, big hole.
		They had a sub-plaza and a mall.
		And when the towers fell, they spread out.
		So the debris, even though you had 100 floors of towers, the debris filled in this big area.
		They call it the bathtub.
		And, you know, I don't know how, because it didn't happen in the South Tower, but in the North Tower, just one little area remained standing with debris all over us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Empty the eight seconds.
		I mean, the light's out.
		Sure, it's black, but I'm sure you firemen had light.
		You had light.
unidentified		So you're saying you must have stood there or sat there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know what position you were in.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Lay there.
		We were tossed around.
		I was thrown.
		I started around from the sixth floor where I ended up where the third floor was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so I was dead.
		Oh, God.
		So didn't you ask yourself in that instant, you know, my God, I seem to be alive.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Actually, I said just the opposite.
		I said.
		I was black.
		I was basically covered.
		I had maybe six inches of debris, dust, and rubble on top of me.
		And I thought I was dead.
		They couldn't see anything.
		And again, the silence, you know, after this immense, tremendous noise, the loudest noise I've ever heard in my life, in eight seconds it was over.
		And then it was like deathly silence.
		There was no after effect, no afternoise.
		It was just deathly silent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You didn't hear anybody else moaning, crying, yelling?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Nothing.
		Nothing.
		You know, the 14 of us that were there actually saw, you know, everyone was going through the same thing.
		They were all like semi-buried and stunned and was black.
		I had, you know, like I said, at first I thought it was dead.
		But then I realized that, you know, my body's still here and relatively unscathed.
		My shoulder, like, I tore my rotator cuff.
		I banged up my knee.
		My eyes were all scratched.
		But no life-threatening injuries.
		And even though it was dark, I felt that there were other people with me.
		Like, you could be in a dark room and you feel a presence.
		You know, someone else is there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You weren't hearing it, though.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I wasn't hearing it.
		I just sensed it, though.
		I just knew, you know, I thought I knew that there was other people there.
		And I called out in the darkness, is anyone else here?
		And I started getting responses.
		Yeah, I'm here.
		I'm here, too, me too.
		And they came from above and below me because this void was like a cave, like a vertical cave.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it was a total of 14 responses?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it wasn't 14 responses initially.
		There was, you know, some people responded, others didn't.
		Some people were hurt, some people were in shock.
		So I identified myself.
		I'm Rich Picciato, Fire Department Battalion Chief.
		And then other people started identifying themselves, and they were mostly firemen.
		some of the firemen carried their flashlights in straps around their shoulders or around their waist.
		Those of them that did turn their lights on, and then through all this dust and darkness, you know, we could see a little bit of rubble that was all around us.
		But one of the guys below, when he turned his light on, he found my light that I was holding in my hand, and I must have dropped in the process so that I had a light.
		Then basically, once we knew people were there, I told everyone, just stay where you are.
		We don't want to bunch up, we don't want to move, we don't want to cause a secondary collapse.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		So I said, everyone, just stay where you are.
		Don't touch anything.
		Just look.
		Turn your lights on.
		Look around.
		See if there's, just see what you can see.
		If there's any way out.
		And basically there wasn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No way out.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		No, there was one doorway further down on the second floor level, landing, where the second floor was.
		I was on the third, and there was a couple guys down there.
		There was debris all backed up against it.
		So after a few minutes, I said, okay, let's try to clear out that debris around the doorway and then see if we could force the door open.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Which we did, and it just led to nowhere.
		It just led compacted debris on the other side of it.
		So you weren't getting through that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh my God.
unidentified		So it's like you're...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, entombed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not like.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		You were entombed.
		And, you know, then we started calling for help on the radios.
		And then, again, I'm the chief, and we're all professional firemen.
		So after we realized what we had, what we didn't have, what resources we had, I was telling the guys, turn off your radios, turn off your flashlights.
		It's long-term survival.
		We have to save the batteries we have.
		I told them, if you had to turn your light on for something, turn it on, do what you have to do, and then turn it off again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were you all firemen, or were there any civilians with you?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		No, there was one civilian, I'll get into that too.
		There was one civilian, this 60-year-old woman from Brooklyn, Josephine, who she worked on the 83rd floor.
		She worked her way down from the 83rd, but she had bad legs, and she was exhausted.
		And then there was one Port Authority police officer who was with us also.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then just one civilian, really?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, one civilian.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And she slowed you up, didn't she?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that was Josephine.
		Now, what happened, I'll backtrack a little bit.
		On the way down, after we were filtered to the B stairwell, I was still trying to do a quick sweep of every floor.
		And on the 12th floor, when I did a quick sweep, there were five men there and that directed me also and said, Chief, we've got a problem in here.
		And I go into one office, and there were approximately 50 people in this office, just sitting there, just stunned and just sitting at desks, sitting on desks.
		And I'm looking at them and say, you know, this is another surreal experience.
		What are they doing there?
		What it was, these people were, most of them were handicapped and non-ambulatory.
		They were in crutches, wheelchairs, walkers.
		They were the real slow ones to get out of the building.
		And most of the people, as they got out, passed them.
		So it was approximately 20 people like that and maybe another 30 people that were helping them.
		And when they got to the lower floors, after the first tower had collapsed and the stairways filled up with debris, they couldn't get by.
		So they just started congregating on the 12th floor.
		They, you know, met, started talking, and just sitting in an office, waiting for someone to come and help them.
		We came by.
		And once I realized what happened, I took all the helpers and got them out, had firemen, escort them to the B stairwell.
		And then we started taking the wheelchairs and the walkers and whatever, doing what we had to do, putting them in chairs or carrying them, assisted them also.
		Josephine was at the end of this group.
		That's the woman that we were caught with.
		And we were assisting her, walking with her, half carrying her, what we had to do.
		And I was pushing everybody, trying to get everyone.
		Josephine was going agonizingly slow.
		The first few floors, it didn't matter because we were all going slow.
		It was like a conga line.
		You're only going as slow as the line could go.
		But then when we got to a couple of lower floors, like half a landing opened up, then a full landing would open up between us and the people in front of them.
		And I'm telling the company that had Josephine, I said, pick her up, get a chair, put her in, we've got to go faster.
		Because I'm coming down from the 35th floor, now I'm down to the lower floors.
		I said, okay, a couple more minutes, we're out of this building.
		And that's, you know, all I wanted to do was get out of that building.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So actually, though.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Her pace saved me.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Saved us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, because if you'd have been just a little quicker, you'd have been in bed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, sure.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we would have been in the lobby or outside when the building came down and a little slower.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Either way.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, either way.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		We had to be that one spot where we were because that's just the small group of us that were in there survived.
unidentified		Well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but the story is not done because here you are, the 14 of you.
		Ultimate, you found out in this Entombed.
		Entombed.
		So how in God's name did you get out of there?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I was calling for help on our radios.
		Like I said, I told everyone else to turn them off except one.
		Let's just leave one radio on because our radios are notorious.
		Like when the batteries go low, it's like a cell phone.
		They don't just slowly die out.
		They just quickly go.
		So I was, you know, and I knew that was going to happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Better to use one radio to help.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Use one radio, call for help.
		And if when that one goes dead, then use another one.
		So I thought everyone to shut their radios off.
		We use it one at a time calling for help.
		Eventually, we made contact.
		I'd say approximately two hours after we were laying there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Two hours in there.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we made contact with someone on the outside, actually, another chief who I know, a guy named Mark Ferrand.
		And I'm telling him, Mark, you know, at the time, I didn't even know how many people there were of us because we were stretched out.
		I didn't want to, you know, we counted, but we did some double counting, you know, counted the same person twice.
		So I thought there was approximately 20 of us.
		So I told Mark, there's 20 of us.
		We're in the North Tower, the B stairwell, approximately the third floor because that's where I was.
		And his first response back is, Richie, where's the North Tower?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, God.
		Gee, you know, we didn't really get these stories.
		I mean, the stories that were coming out for, it seemed like days where there were no survivors.
		There were no survivors.
		So, you know, when you were in communication, that wasn't hit in the media.
		Somehow that didn't get to the media, believe me.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know.
		Well, we were the only survivors out of both, you know, I won't say we're the only survivors.
		We're the only survivors that were actually in the buildings when they collapsed in either tower.
		I don't think anyone survived from the South Tower.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		And the North Tower was just a group of us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But, I mean, at the time, you know, everybody was on edge for any word of any possibility of any survivors.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I'm surprised when that radio contact was made that it didn't flash across and somehow get out, but it didn't.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, you know what it was, too?
		It was a total of we were out of there five hours later.
		So after us, no one else got out.
		So we were in the beginning when it was all pandemonium outside.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		did you have any way of knowing how much debris was around you in other words where you were totally hopelessly buried or there was some No, I knew what tower I was in.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		They didn't know where the tower was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you would have no way of really knowing how much was around you, would you?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		No, I just assumed that there was.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I assumed wrongly so that there was over 100 feet of debris on top of us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which also would have been a death sentence.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Well, I thought, like I said, my mind had 100 thoughts a minute.
		One of them was previously we had a fire last Father's Day, the Father's Day fire, they called it, where we had three firemen in a two-story building that collapsed in Queens.
		They were alive.
		They were in the basement.
		We had radio contact with them.
		And we couldn't get to them in time.
		Because any type of collapse and any type of rescue is a hand operation.
		You can't bring heavy machinery in because if there is a void, you bring a bulldozer or a crane on top of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's just collapsing.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Crushing.
		So it's a hand operation.
		When we had this two-story building in Queens, and we knew we had three firemen in the basement alive, we couldn't get to them in time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you thought you were probably in that.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I said, well, if we can't get to guys with a two-story building, what chance do I have with a 110-story building?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that makes sense to me.
		Hold on, Chief.
		We'll be right back.
		From the high desert.
		I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
		You try and imagine, you close your eyes, you listen to this, and you try and imagine.
		Try and imagine.
unidentified		This is Premier Networks.
		that was our bell hosting coast to coast a m on this somewhere in time the the Some say he was a sailor who died in the wet sea.
		Some say he was a prisoner, never was set free.
		Lost upon the ocean, a diver in the mist.
		Dreaming of her kids.
		Better than they call her.
		Tell me lies.
		Tell me sweet little lies.
		Tell me lies.
		Tell me lies.
		Oh, no, no.
		You can't just die.
		You can't just die.
		Tell me lies.
		Tell me sweet little lies.
		Tell me lies.
		Although I'm not making it easy.
		I hope that you understand.
		There's a reason why.
		Close your eyes.
		No more broken hearts.
		We're better off.
		Let's go.
		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from May 22nd, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest, New York Fire Department Battalion Commander, Richard Pichiota, and he's the last man down.
		Where did we leave off?
		Well, he was entombed.
		He and it turns out 13 others, I guess total of 14, were entombed in what he certainly thought and had every right to think was an area, some little void with hundreds, you know, a hundred floors above him, collapse on top of him.
		And that's entombed forever.
		It really is.
		And that's certainly what you would think.
		You'd have no reason to believe anything else at all.
		And if it was a lesser number of floors, if you imagine some Collapse outward.
		There would still be 50, 60 floors collapsed on you.
		There would be no way out of that.
		And that's sort of where we will pick up here in a moment.
		Stay right where you are.
unidentified		Stay right where you are.
		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from May 22, 2002.
		Coast to Coast AM You noticed it was an extra commercial in there, my.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're right.
unidentified		Absolutely correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good observation.
		My sleep-deprived mind missed one a little bit earlier, so you did get an extra one there.
		All right, well, so we're back in this building, in this void, in the black, in this impossible area, and you're just radioing another chief, you say, and you're in contact.
		He wants to know what building you're in.
		I presume you immediately tell him which building.
		But I can't imagine how did the communication go from there?
		I mean, you said it was a couple hours?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was, you know, I was happy to finally make contact with anyone.
		Of course.
		But then, you know, when he's the first thing he's telling me, they have no idea where the North Tower was or is, you know, I could just picture what kind of devastation is out there where you don't know where a 110-story building was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I'm thinking that you were probably thinking you were in a hopeless situation.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's what I thought.
		It was hopeless.
		I mean, it was, you know, we explored any possibility that we had initially without climbing all over the place.
		Again, we didn't want to move that much because I didn't want to cause a collapse.
		So I was in contact with Mark, and I had this bullhorn that had a siren on it.
		It was a pretty loud siren.
		So every once in a while, I would tell him to just listen for the siren.
		I would have the siren sounding in the, you know, where we were.
		And it was loud.
		It was almost as loud as a siren on a fire engine.
		And they couldn't hear it.
		So I said, well, you know, even though they could hear me on the radio, on the handy-talkie, they couldn't hear me.
		They couldn't hear this loud siren.
		So I said, you just have to move and we'll wait 15 minutes and I'll do it again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What were you saying to the others at this point?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I was telling them that we made contact with someone and then I was telling them to, you know, and then I said, shut everything off.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		So, you know, I'll be the main communication to the outside world, basically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but you were dealing with mostly other firemen.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just one civilian.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they pretty much knew what I was up to, didn't they?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And we were all, there wasn't a lot of small talk.
		And not where I was anyway.
		A little bit above me, there was another whole company, Six Truck, with a good friend of mine, Jay Jonas, who was the captain of that.
		And he's a friend of mine, and we didn't even see each other face to face for a long time because we didn't want to take the risk of climbing up or down.
		And his company was taking care of the woman, Josephine.
		So there wasn't a lot of small talk.
		And I was focused mainly on the communications out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but they had to know probably the same thing you knew.
		Yeah.
		You know, if the siren isn't getting hurt, so imagining all these floors on top of you, that sort of says to you, uh-uh.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's just, you know, it wasn't pleasant.
		It was one of the things I talk about in the book again.
		I prayed for a quick death, and now, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You didn't get one.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I didn't get one.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		So, you know, it's, you know, to my way of thinking it's one of the worst ways, you know, being buried alive or, you know.
unidentified		Yeah, that's got to be one of the worst ways.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		It's not a pleasant thought.
unidentified		No.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		But we did make the contact with Mark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So at some point he heard that, siren?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Well, a lot later.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		What happened then is we were laying there in the dark, and I told everyone to shut off the flashlights, too, because if we kept them all on for, you know, in a couple hours, they'd be gone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was your air like?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		The air wasn't that bad.
		It was very dusty.
		You know, guys were coughing.
		It was dry.
		But, you know, again, we didn't have an option.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you think not as bad as the air outside?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I don't think it was as bad as the air outside for whatever reason.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		You know, everything got pushed up, and where we were was...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You were sealed up in a void.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		You were sealed, right?
		Then what happened, you know, hours later, as we're laying there in the darkness, I'm laying on my back.
		It was almost like a funnel-shaped area we were in.
		The guys that were above us had more room.
		And down where we were, it was more compacted.
		There was more debris, fell down.
		I'm laying on my back just on this debris, and I'm looking up, and there were no stairs on top of me.
		This one section was clear to like the top of the cave or whatever you want to call it.
		And I'm slowly noticing in the blackness, like a little bit of gray, and then it's getting a little bit brighter and a little bit brighter.
		And I thought it was a hallucination.
		You know, I'm seeing things.
		And I just kept on staring at it.
		And it's getting a little bit brighter and a little bit brighter.
		And then I called up to the guys above me.
		I said, Jay, do you see that?
		And he says, yeah, what is it?
		I said, I don't know.
		So we're just all looking further up at the top of this cave area.
		And all of a sudden, it's like a shaft of light is coming through.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Wow.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		And what happened?
		There was this little crevice in this debris.
		There was this crevice going out, and it was always there.
		We never saw it because of this tremendous dust cloud that was outside.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it was black.
		There was no light to be coming through.
		So black.
		Oh, I've got it.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		And also, outside, the surrounding buildings were on fire.
		We had buildings ranging from 9 to 47 stories.
		Six World Trade Center was a 47-story building that was completely engulfed in fire that eventually collapsed also a few hours later.
		So all that smoke obscured that whole area.
		If you remember, you know, day turned to night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Day turned to night is what happened.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		So that was going on for hours while we were there.
		And then when that started settling, some light started filtering through.
		So after a while, this light is getting brighter and brighter.
		I called up to the guys above me.
		I said, could we reach that?
		And initially, they said no, because they thought it was too unstable.
		So after, again, a little while longer, I'm just staring at it.
		And then I said, I've got to get further up.
		I've got to see where it goes.
		So I told everyone to stay where they are.
		I climbed up to where the other guys were a little bit higher than me.
		We talked for a few minutes about other things, what we could do, because it was the first time I actually saw them face to face.
		And then I said, I'm going to go further up to that light.
		I've got to see where it leads.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Could you tell, were you able to tell roughly how far away the light was?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then by that, were you able to judge how big of an opening it might be?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Not from the perspective where we were, because it was coming in at an angle.
		But once I got up there, then it opened up to a bigger area.
		And I climbed up, and basically I climbed out, and all of a sudden I'm on the top of this huge pile of debris.
		But I'm outside.
		I can see the sky.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		It was like, you know, and, you know, hallelujah.
		You know, we're out.
		But even though I'm out, you know, and I was talking to Mark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How big was the opening, actually?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		It was big enough to crawl through.
		To crawl through.
		And then it opened up.
		And then it was almost like a balcony almost on the side.
		You know, just an area.
		And, you know, I was in contact with Mark this whole time.
		And actually, there were other things that happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then it wasn't a siren at all.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		No one could get anywhere near us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was you climbing out, crawling out.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Well, the siren, after I got out, I still didn't see any of the rescue workers.
		Now, this is hours later.
unidentified		Yeah.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		They were being held back because of all these surrounding buildings, which, again, one of them eventually fell, a 47-story building eventually fell.
		So, you know, and they didn't know where we were.
		So then once I got out, I'm on top of these pilots.
		Josephine couldn't leave, and some of the other five of them were banged up, you know, that they couldn't climb out.
		And two of the guys are actually buried.
		They're alive, but they were in a separate void.
		I didn't want to leave that area until we had help there.
		So now I'm saying, you know, tell Mark, Mark, we're out.
		I could see daylight.
		And I would turn the siren on again.
		No key on the siren, and you still couldn't hear it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		So they kept on, you know, they would move around, and then they finally heard it and had to try to get to us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Holy smokes.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		So it took them, I don't know, another hour, an hour and a half to actually get to the area where we were.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they just followed the sound.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		And followed the sound.
		But a lot of times, sometimes they'd follow the sound and then just be cut off.
		They couldn't get to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they were crawling over debris, crawling over debris, crawling over debris to try and get to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it took them that long.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And then something, you know, they just couldn't leave because it would be a sheer wall of debris.
		So they would have to backtrack and go through another building to try to come through from a different area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Eventually they heard the siren, so that was great when they heard it.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		But it took them like two or three attempts from different areas after they heard it to actually get to where we saw them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		there's a lot of hours now that it's uh...
		did everybody in the in the void areas that you knew to be alive uh...
		get out would remain alive or did you lose anybody in that we A couple.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we lost a couple guys that were crushed.
		They were alive.
		I was talking to them earlier.
		But they just, you know, they had too many internal injuries.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		But when I talk about the 14 of us, the 12 firemen, the civilian and the cop, they're the ones that got out that survived.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then how did they, did you, once they finally got to you, I mean, after all this time, they finally got to you, then how were you extracted?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Well, when they got to us, they were at the bottom of this rubble, and we were on this, you know, this high part.
		Right.
		We did have a rope with us, a lifesaving rope that we carried.
		And basically, I tied a rope around myself, and I used a rope to climb down, you know, from point A to B to C and tied the rope off at various spots.
		And then the other guys behind me could use that rope as a hand guide to help them climb down.
		And then the guys at the bottom used the same rope to climb up, and they were able to relieve us to take care of Josephine and the injured guys and dig for the other two guys.
		Then, you know, a couple other things were going on.
		The area where we were was outside was Secret Service bunker.
		And so they had small arms, ammunition, and, I don't know, grenades or whatever the hell were going off during this.
		And the guys that came in, Mark Ferand directed another company, 43 Truck, to come into us.
		They came in through Five World Trade Center.
		That's eventually how they came in.
		And that building was on fire when they came through it.
		When we tried to extract ourselves, the way they came was cut off by fire, so we couldn't go out that way.
		Some of the previous ways that they tried to get to, we couldn't go that way.
		So we kind of just had to hunt and peck on the way out, like try this way, try that way, try a different way, until we eventually just climbed over the rubble up and down these tremendous mountains of rubble.
		And that was almost an hour just to get out of the rubble field.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, an hour going over a rubble field to get to just the edge of, I guess, the damage.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, right, to get the edge of, you know, and I was in radio contact with Mark and a couple guys from 43.
		And it was, thank God we were, because when we climbed down and we were walking through this rubble field, it looked like just a nuclear attack.
		You saw nothing other than destruction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's because it did look like a nuclear attack.
unidentified		Yeah.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		And the surrounding buildings were on fire.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, Chief, are you aware that they have actually measured the energy in the planes hitting the buildings, then the buildings actually collapsing, which is where all the energy was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They've measured the amount of energy, and it comes out in kilotons.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I can imagine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kilotons of energy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like a nuclear blast.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		And if you saw it, that's, you know.
		I mean, I'm sure you saw pictures.
		I'm sure you saw video clips.
		Of course.
		But being there, it's just, you know, words and film don't do it.
		The immenseness of it, it's just indescribable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what everybody said who's been there, that the words just.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And television doesn't do it either.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To understand, yeah, just like a nuclear attack.
		Well, actually, it was in the kiloton, so it was sort of a nuclear attack.
		And just crawling over that debris, that must have been like crawling over a, I don't know, a destroyed world, a moonscape, or something.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and what was really amazing to me is other than steel, twisted steel, and just concrete dust, there was nothing recognizable.
		You know, you had office buildings, you had rugs, furniture, chairs, computers, glass.
		I didn't see a single piece of glass.
		I mean, everything was pulverized.
		Pulverized.
		There was nothing recognizable.
		It was just all metal and very little concrete, really, either.
		I mean, it was just all metal and dust.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's absolutely incredible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess the concrete pulverized as well.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So all that would survive would be the twisted metal and just fields of that and enough to climb over for an hour to get out of there.
		How were you physically by the time you finally got out?
		How were you physically?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I was exhausted.
		I was exhausted.
		My eyes were burnt.
		At the time, my eyes were my biggest concern because they were all scratched.
		My corneas were scratched, and a lot of that smoke was very acrid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then what kind of vision did you have?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I had blurry vision.
		It was terrible.
		Once I got out, that was the first thing they had triage areas set up.
		I was just taking bottles of water and pouring it on my eyes.
		And then I was directing other people into where, you know, where we got out, 43, the guys that came and climbed up, they remained with the injured, you know, the injured that couldn't move and Josephine and were digging for the other two guys that eventually they dug out.
		But I had to get them more help because there's only a couple guys there.
		So once I directed more people into them, told them where we were, you know, we were the only survivors, then they, you know, put me in an ambulance, caught me off to the hospital.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I guess you feared for your vision that you...
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I was physically exhausted.
		But I didn't know if I was going to see or if I was going to lose my vision.
		They were so bad.
		And then at the hospital, when they checked it out, I had all scratches and burns that smoke.
		It was caustic or whatever, and like pepper holes into my corneas.
		So they gave me all sorts of medicine and steroids.
		And eventually my vision came back.
		But I breathed all that junk in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Chief, I'll tell you what.
		We're at the top of the hour.
		I have a couple more questions.
		Everyone want to open the phone lines if that's all right with you.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, stay right there.
unidentified		trip back in time continues with art bell hosting coast to coast am more somewhere in time coming up i used to be your heart beating for someone but the times have changed Yes, I say the more my work gets done.
		Yes, I say the more my work gets done.
		We were gonna go all the way, and we never had a doubt.
		We were running with the night, playing the saddles.
		We touched you at last, till the morning light.
		We were running with the night.
		We were so alone, you and me.
		All we're gonna want, want to breathe.
		Giving all we got, we laid it down.
		Taking every shot, we took the town.
		We were running with the night.
		Playing in the saddles.
		Just you and I. Girl, it was so right.
		Girl, it was so right.
		Girl, it was so right.
		Premier Networks presents Art Bell somewhere in time tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from May 22nd, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Running with the Knight and New York Fire Department Battalion Commander Richards Giotto.
		And we're going to hit questions now.
		You have questions for the chief, and I bet you do about all of this.
		This has got to be one of the more incredible stories I've ever heard in my life.
		And this is what long-form talk radio is for.
		Because you will never hear anything in the kind of detail you just heard it like this in any other media.
		That's what long-form talk radio is for.
		And certainly we've achieved that.
		so if you have questions about what this man went through and or what he thinks now now would be the time and those would be the numbers music The new version of the Coast to Coast AM app is here, now available for Android as well as iPhone.
unidentified		For Coast Insiders, it offers the ability to download the most recent shows so you can listen to them at your leisure.
		The new app also has listen live and streaming features, plus recaps, contacts, and upcoming show info.
		Coast Insiders with Android System 4.0 and above or iPhone, check out our new app at the Google Play or iTunes stores or link from the Coast website.
		Somewhere in Time with Art Bell continues, courtesy of Premier Networks.
		Music All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Back to my guest.
		I've just got a couple of other questions for you, Chief, before we go to the phones.
		You know, sort of standout questions.
		And whenever anything like this happens, and there's never been anything like this, but I mean, in tragedies where a lot of people die and a few people live, you know, like air crashes, airline crashes, that sort of thing, about couple people walk away or a few there's this big deal the psychiatrists talk about about guilt you know you form it
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's definitely true.
		I know it's true in the fire department.
		There's a tremendous amount of guilt.
		I mean, I went through it.
		I went through all different emotions.
		I don't know why either, but it's there.
		You feel guilty for surviving when so many others didn't.
		Did you do something right?
		Did you do something wrong?
		And it's just fate.
		I think I did a lot of things right that day, but I know a lot of firemen also did a lot of things right, and they're not here to talk about it.
		So it's just fate what happens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you a religious person?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I am.
		I was raised Catholic.
		I still believe in Catholic religion, but I'm not overly demonstrative in the Catholic faith, although I believe in it.
		But I know I'm a good person, and I believe what I believe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and what do you believe about why you said it?
		I mean, a lot of them were doing everything absolutely right, and they died.
		And so few lived, and you lived.
		You're one of those 14 people that lived.
		Do you question your own faith?
		Do you ask yourself, you know, why God would have let it happen this way?
		Or is that answered in your faith?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		It's kind of answered in my faith.
		It has to be.
		You know, I mean, if it was up to me, if I made the rules, I wouldn't have innocent people die.
		But, you know, that's free will.
		That's part of how the human race works.
		And it's not always nice.
		We have to realize that there are people who want to destroy our way of life, and we have to defend it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Jan, I want to ask you about that too in more detail.
		What's the New York Fire Department like now?
		How's morale?
		How's it functioning?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's tough.
		We're still basically working down there.
		We're finishing up.
		We'll probably be finished up within, I think they said May 30th would be the last.
		It'll be over.
		The official recovery will be over.
		We still, we haven't recovered more than half of our members.
		So that's tough.
		Guys, we're still grieving.
		We lost 343 members.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were people, that's something that a lot of people have asked about.
		You said the mortar and the brick vaporized a lot of it.
		You didn't see a lot.
		It was metal.
		So you have to presume that human beings were virtually vaporized.
		There's nothing to find.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Yeah.
		And basically, I mean, you know, that's what we've been doing down there for the last eight months looking.
		And you found some, didn't find a lot.
		You know, most, we found nothing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the families, the poor families, most of them don't have anything to bury.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah, that's true.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		It's unfortunate, but that's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's go and ask you about this.
		I mean, our own vice president the other day said another attack is likely.
		So I wonder, you know, how you feel.
		You said we have to defend ourselves.
		We're facing this situation now where our generation, probably our children, I mean, now they're saying, you know, we're going to have the suicide bombers here in America, not if, but when, you know, they're coming.
		And there's going to be more of this and awful biological threats and nuclear threats.
		And oh, God, it's a different world we live in now.
		Since 9-11, it's a whole different world.
		And so I wonder how you feel about this.
		If we're attacked again, Chief, are you willing to say what you think our response should be?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm willing to say it.
		We have to, you know, there are people, and we know who some of them are.
		I mean, there are countries that have said that, you know, if given the opportunity and given the chance, if they had the technology, they'll destroy us.
		That's right.
		You know, they said it.
		If someone's going to destroy my family, I'm going to try to destroy them first.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they proved it.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and they proved they'll do it.
		So now, you know, there's, you know, Bush declared a war on terrorism, and that's exactly what it is.
		It's not a war against any race of people, any type, any color, any religion.
		It's a war on terrorists, and we have to see that war to the end, which means eliminate them.
		Eliminate the terrorists.
		And I don't care what your race, color, creed, sex, nationality, borders.
		Nothing matters.
		I don't care what country you live in.
		We should go after terrorists, whoever they are, and eliminate them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yep, we're, I guess, in the process of trying to do that.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Trying to do that, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's a pretty tough job.
		I had some comments the last couple days.
		You know, as far as I'm concerned, there are certain areas of the world.
		If we're attacked again, the Bakaw Valley, you know, in Lebanon, where a lot of rats are holding up, and the India-Afghan border area, where a lot of rats are holding up.
		And then, of course, there's Iraq that's manufacturing stuff to kill millions of Americans.
		I think that we should use every power at our disposal.
		And if that means using tactical nuclear weapons and sending a message that will be remembered to some of those areas, then I see that as an option.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you know, we have to defend, you know, we have to defend our people and we have to defend our country.
		We have to defend all innocent people.
		I mean, that's what this country does.
		Some people say that, you know, we're aggressors, we're capitalists.
		You know, we could take over any country we wanted to.
		I mean, you know, when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, we took it over.
		We didn't keep it.
		We gave it back to them.
		That's right.
		You know, maybe we should have kept it.
		Maybe we should have kept that oil.
		You know, Saddam Hussein was trying to keep it.
		If he got it, what would he have done?
		He would have tried to strangle us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it seems to me, Chief, if we just let this go and we have generations now of terrorism and we're going to start living like Israel lives every day, then we need to take extraordinary measures.
		Because, you know, we'll start to lose our rights.
		I mean, as they clamp down more and more, if it's a slow ratcheting up of terror, then our Bill of Rights is going to be at risk.
		It's going to naturally be at risk because we're going to have to clamp down on everything.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Well, our Bill of Rights is going to be at risk.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I think most people would give up certain rights.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They obviously would.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Because it's for their own safety.
		It's for their own protection.
		I mean, you don't have to get on a plane.
		If you don't want to be searched, don't get on a plane.
		Don't get on a plane and say, well, this is my satchel, and you don't have the right to look at it.
		You know, that's ridiculous.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course it's ridiculous.
		But, you know, yes, and there are going to be reasonable measures, but it will erode what we are.
		And, you know, I'm telling you, if we're attacked again in some way, I think that our response should be really harsh.
		And we've got the weapons.
		We've got the weapons, and we're attacked.
		And these are people who want us dead.
		They don't want much talk to us.
		They just want us dead.
		And so I think we ought to regard them the same way.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		Yeah.
		If we can identify the people that are doing it, we have to go after them non-stop.
		We have to destroy them because they're going to try to destroy us.
		And you can't give them the second, third, fourth, fifth time because maybe after the eighth, ninth, or tenth time, they'll succeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		So we already gave them more than one chance.
		It's the old thing, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
		They attacked us twice so far.
		They attacked the World Trade Center twice.
		They tried to bring the building down twice.
		They succeeded the second time.
		Maybe if we had a stronger response the first time, the second time wouldn't have happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		And they had the opportunity to have a strong response and passed.
		All right, let's try a couple of phone calls here.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with the Chief.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		My name is Joey.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Joey.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Chief.
unidentified		Yes.
		I know, first of all, I just want to say we love you in South Texas.
		I'm coming from South Texas, McCallan.
		And we, I mean, what you did out there and what you guys did out there, it's an honor to know that we have people that are so, I mean, awesome, really.
		I just want to let you know.
		My question was on September 11th, your title was chief, and being a chief is the highest authority in the fire department.
		At the time, did you not want to be the chief, knowing that you had to deal with a lot of decisions, and did you regret any decisions that you made at the time?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		No, I wanted to be the chief.
		I wanted to be the chief my whole career.
		I guess it's the type of personality that goes on the fire department and that studies to become a chief.
		I studied hard.
		These are life and death decisions.
		Someone has to make them, and I feel I'm competent to make them.
		They're tough decisions to make, but I feel I'm competent to do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He asked you also if you regretted any decision you made.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I do not regret a single decision I made that day.
unidentified		No, no.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		And believe me, I went through every decision I made numerous times.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		We talked before about that guilt feeling, and that guilt feeling is there, but when I step by step go through every decision I made, I'm happy with every decision I made.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's an amazing thing to say for a day of that magnitude and all of that happening.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think most of my, you know, I'll speak for myself.
		I'm happy with the decisions I've made.
		And if you're not, you have to live with yourself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, that causes a lot of trouble for a lot of people when they have to live with something for the rest of their life.
		You know, it affects them psychologically.
		So that's incredible to be able to say that of a day, as you rumble back over it, and that's got to be a lot of comfort for you.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		It is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You decided to write.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What made you decide to write a book?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I get asked that a lot, and it was a combination of things.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		First of all, after any major incident I'm in, I take notes, I write down what went right, what went wrong, lessons learned, just for future reference, for teaching, and to talk to other chiefs, to talk to firemen, for training.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, you're doing what a chief does.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I did it at the first, you know, at the World Trade Center bombing.
		I wrote a lot of stuff that I never did anything with it, just had it, you know, I talked about it with other people.
		This time, I was doing the same thing, only I had a lot more stuff to write down.
		And then once I started writing, it became cathartic for me to put it down on paper, to get timelines, you know, this happened, when I was doing this, what was other people doing, you know, what was happening after the first hour, I was trying to make discommunications, who was hearing me, who wasn't.
		I was doing a lot of data gathering, I'll put it.
		But then also in the weeks and months after September 11th, I was attending a lot of funerals and a lot of memorials.
		Fire department, especially New York City Fire Department, is a very close community.
		I spent 29 years in the fire department.
		I know a lot of people.
		Stories get out real quick.
		A lot of people knew that I was in the building when it came down.
		I was trapped.
		They knew my story.
		So at these memorials and funerals, they were coming up to me and talking, you know, asking what happened.
		And I was talking to, you know, I must have told the story hundreds of times, you know, and it'd be, you know, an hour, two hours, three hours talking.
		And then a lot of firemen were encouraging me, you know, you really should write this so people, you know, more people know it.
		So I was already had, you know, I was writing, you know, not writing a book, just writing what went on.
		And then I decided to write a book initially just for firemen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is cathartic, isn't it?
		I mean, it definitely was for me.
		I wrote a book about my, by comparison, totally average life.
		And I went through a lot of emotions writing that.
		And, you know, it really takes you back to it, and you sort of relive it.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, really relive it.
		So that's incredible.
		How big a book is it?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		It's I think it's like 300 pages, 300 some-odd pages.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's pretty good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of detail in there then.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Oh, yeah.
		I go into a lot of detail in a lot of areas.
		I go into a lot of different things in the book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let's try one quickly before the bottom of the air.
		What's the Rockies?
		You're on the air with the Chief.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Yeah, this is Joe.
unidentified		I'm calling you from the main streets of East Los Angeles over here at KFI.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Joe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome.
unidentified		Hey, I really appreciate Chief.
		Yes.
		Well, first, I'm very frustrated when you were naming the people responsible, you didn't quite give the target who they were.
		You know, what frustrates me is that these were Saudi Arabians who did this to you.
		And most of all, this was Saudi money who they fund and paid for the madrasas, which basically are suicidal jihad sociopaths.
		And they send them out into the world to do specifically what they did to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's absolutely no question about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was Saudi money.
unidentified		It's Saudi money that did this to you.
		And to hear you not mention a word of that frustrates me to the point where you have no clue as to how frustrating that is.
		I'm mentioning it, but you don't.
		And I think you have to identify who did this to you.
		Because, see, here's another thing.
		Just so you could understand.
		At the bottom half, there was a Bank of Nova Scotia, which is New Scottish, which is basically the Masonic Bank.
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, listen, we're going to hold it there, caller.
		The Masonic Bank.
		I can see where that's going.
		Do you want to respond to that at all?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I'll definitely respond to anything.
		I talk about what I know about.
		I know a lot of the hijacks were Saudi.
		The Saudis are supposedly our friends.
		Yeah, well, you know, they were our friends when they were afraid of their oil fields.
		Kuwait was being invaded, and they were the next online.
		Now, I think all people have to realize that this is not against a race.
		And that's what I said.
		And you have to come out on, you have to make a choice who you're going to support.
		You know, just because an Arab is an Arab, you don't support him.
		If he's a terrorist, he's a terrorist.
		I came out against the terrorists, and I said, I don't care what race or religion you are.
		We're going after them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Chief, hold on.
		Bottom of the hour.
		I'm Art Bell.
		This is Coast.
unidentified		You are listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from May 22, 2002.
		Coast to Coast AM from May 22, 2002.
		It is night, my body's weak.
		I'm on the run, no time to sleep.
		I've got to ride, ride like the wind to be free again.
		And I've got such a long way to go.
		So we're going to make it to the war.
		Mexico to our ride like the wind by the wind.
		I'm going to sun up alone to Spain.
		I'm for my mind with a gun in my hand.
		Live my life like the wind by that wind.
		I'm falling up along the spin.
		I'm for my mind with a gun in my hand.
		Live my life.
		I'm dancing right like the wind.
		And I've got such a long way to go.
		It's a long way to go.
		To make it to the corners of Mexico.
		So I ride like the wind.
		Ride like the wind.
		So I ride like the wind.
		Ride like the wind.
		But these are the times on the head Hey, I'm nowhere safe.
		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from May 22nd, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
		I doubt you've ever heard a story like this.
		Not a real-life story.
		Probably not, ever.
		And certainly not in this detail.
		If you have any questions for the Chief, that's what we're here for right now.
		It's all yours.
unidentified		coming up stay right there You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
unidentified		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from May 22, 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Coast to Coast AM Well, all right, once again, here we go with the Chief, and we'll try and lay in heavily to the telephones this last segment, if we can, Chief.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air with Chief Richard DeJoswell.
unidentified		First, sir, I'd like to say thanks for taking my call.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		Good morning to both you and the Chief.
		My question to the Chief would be, like, he says that he wants to kill all the terrorists.
		And the only thought in my mind when he says something like this is it's the first thing you think of when something just happens.
		But cooler heads should prevail over a period of time, and you'll realize that an action like that is only going to cause more terrorism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		That's certainly a widely held view, Chief.
		I can assure you, I get lots and thousands of emails about this.
		And, you know, they just say it will be a cycle of increasing violence.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what a war is until some side wins.
		You know, we've declared a war on terrorism.
		What are you going to do?
		If you know they're there, you're going to let them go?
		Let them do it again and again and again?
		It has to be stopped.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't see how anybody else can develop any other rational point of view than that.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, you know, if you say that it's going to be escalating.
		That's what war is.
		It's escalating violence until one side enforces their will on the other side.
		We're right.
		They're wrong.
		I mean, it's very simple, in my mind.
		It's very simple.
		They started it.
		They want a war to the end.
		And, you know.
unidentified		So that's what it's really going to hopefully will prevail.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		And hopefully this country will realize that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're calling the nature of the war.
		They're the ones calling it.
		They're saying they just want us dead.
		So I guess we have to look at it that way.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		If they want to crawl away into a hole in a mountain and stay there, fine, stay there.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		But don't keep on making threats.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm with you all the way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard line, you're on air with the chief.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doing wants.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, hello.
unidentified		Art?
		Yes.
		This is Steve From Aspen, Colorado.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Steve.
unidentified		I uploaded two of the pictures that the chief was talking about to Keith.
		So they're on the webmaster's site.
		One was of the wreckage, or all that was left after the two buildings collapsed was the six or so stories where the void was.
		That's one of the photographs that you can see.
		and the other one was walking out over the debris field with all the white powder so those two pictures are have been sent to keep just the Yeah, actually, hi, Steve.
		How you doing, Pitch?
		You should have told me you did.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I actually know who Steve is.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I recognize his voice.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, so these would indeed be the photographs.
unidentified		These came from the chief, and he just forgot to send them to you.
		If he told me he was going to be on, I would have sent them earlier.
		But I have a question for him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Keith.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you sent them to Webmaster?
unidentified		Webmaster, right, about a half hour ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
unidentified		And I have a question for Pitch.
		He just alluded briefly to what happened on his way down between the 35th and the 7th floor.
		But when he got to, I think, the 10th or so, he found a whole batch of people just kind of sitting there.
		And that's a fabulous little sub-story.
		I'd like him to just tell that if he would.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		I'll hang up.
unidentified		Good to hear you.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Thanks.
		Yeah, what happened?
		We kind of glossed over that one thing.
		When I was going down in the two of the stairwells were blocked, and the third one was clear.
		We were going to the third one.
		I was still doing a quick sweep of every floor.
		And I come into this room, and there were approximately 50 people there.
		There were 20 disabled people.
		I'll say roughly 20.
		I didn't count them.
		And another 30 people that were helping them.
		We stopped the evacuation to get them out.
		And it was slow going because the helpers were fast.
		We were able to push them out quick.
		Some of them didn't want to leave because some of them were helping these various people down from the 50th, 60th, 70th floor.
		And they felt the responsibility to get them all the way down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, of course, but they've got to go.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		They have to go, and we could do it better, faster.
		And we had to get them out.
		And they left.
		They were good.
		Then we started getting the wheelchairs and the walkers and getting them people out.
		And I was being at the end pushing, when I say pushing them, not literally pushing them, but telling the firemen, come on, keep on going.
		We've got to get all these people out.
		We've got to get them out.
		I never stopped to get their names or anything.
		It was just too much.
		I've talked to some of the firemen since then that were involved in that.
		And some of them lived, got outside the building.
		They got half a block away, a block away.
		And some of them lived and some of them didn't.
		I'm assuming that's the same with the people.
		I wish I knew more.
		I wish I could say that they all got out.
		But I just don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there's so many things about that day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're never going to know.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're just never going to know.
		We're never going to find the bodies, and we're never going to know.
		I'll accept what was done to us.
		Used to the Rockies, you're on the air with the Chief.
		Hello.
		Used to the Rockies, are you there?
		Going once, going twice, gone.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with the Chief.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I've heard stories where Bush has kind of ignored warnings about hijacking.
		And Abbott Horney, do you think he's partly to blame because he didn't do more to get the security better in the airports before the attacks happened?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let's take that question.
		Chief, a tough one.
		It's a tough one.
		I mean, look, the warnings go back to the last administration, really, and then now apparently to this administration, too.
		How are you digesting this present controversy, you know, where we are with it right now?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Personally, I think it's spin.
		It's political spin is what's going on.
		There are warnings and there are threats coming in every day, hundreds if not thousands of threats a day.
		There are people that have to put some kind of, they have to put them in some kind of order and put some kind of validity on every threat.
		I mean, if some crackpot calls up and says that there's a bomb on this place, that place, or the other place, do we just close that place down?
		New York City yesterday, they closed down the Brooklyn Bridge for hours because there was a threat of a bomb.
		Now, I don't know what the validity of it was, but obviously it was pretty good.
		New York City gets threats daily.
		New York City gets hundreds of threats a day.
		I mean, if terrorists know that they could destroy a country just by making threats, they'll make phone calls every day.
		And they do.
		we have agencies that do things get get uh...
		I'm going to ignore it.
		I think it's just, based on the volume of threats that we get, it was unfortunately, it wasn't, you know, it's easy to Monday morning quarterback to say, after, oh, you know, this threat should have been taken seriously.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Well, every threat should be taken seriously, but when there's thousands of them a day, you have to somehow rate them.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		And if you get a threat from someone who you know who's inside on a double agent, you take that a lot more seriously than an anonymous phone call.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, absolutely.
		All right.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with the chief.
		Hello.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Chief.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		I like to be one of the first people.
		I'm a citizen, and I'd like to thank you for saving hundreds of American lives.
		There's hundreds of people that are alive because of your efforts.
		That's a pretty big thing, huh?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		I know all the flymen saved a lot of people's lives that day.
		We all did what we had to do.
unidentified		Yeah, and geez, it's really sad to see this stuff happen.
		But how do you, I mean, do you guys, when you guys, after all this has happened, I mean, do you sleep?
		Do you have any problems?
		Are you guys on vacation because of this?
		Because this is like seriously.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, you already said he's on light duty, but you know, a good question is, do you have nightmares about this?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, without a doubt I do.
		Without a doubt I do.
		I think about it a lot.
		And it's something I never want to forget, but I hope I could compartment it.
		I hope I could just think about it just for a few minutes a day instead of a few hours a day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there any one particular memory that's imprinted harder than others on you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From that day?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		I have a few memories.
		The one is just the initial realization that when the tower I was in coming down, I was in the stairwell and just that eight seconds.
		I could picture that right now.
		I could picture that anytime.
		Not that I want to, but that's imprinted in my memory.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And how has it changed you, do you think, psychologically?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		It's put different priorities on my life.
		I don't really get upset over small things.
		Most of the time I don't.
		Sometimes I do.
		I think I realize life is precious.
		Life is good.
		I want to enjoy it.
		I'm going to enjoy it.
		You do what you have to do, but life is good.
		And I was always put off till tomorrow.
		I always enjoyed life.
		I always had fun.
		But now I'm enjoying it more.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		More conscious that there can suddenly not be a tomorrow.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Oh, without a doubt.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		All right.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with the chief.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi, this is Larry in Fort Lauderdale.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Larry.
unidentified		Hi, I just wanted to echo what the previous caller said before in two points.
		One is that I do think, and I know that you probably don't like the use of this word, I think that you are the epitome of the modern American hero.
		And I know I speak for thousands of callers that can't make it through tonight.
		And I don't think that came through on some of the first phone calls that came in.
		It would just like to emphasize that.
		I know it was a call.
		You were doing your job.
		But if you look at the enormity of what you were facing, we were all hurt emotionally.
		You were hurt physically.
		And you're probably among a select few of survivors that were hurt physically from this.
		And for that reason, I think that we do have to have an aggressive response.
		And someday we may be able to cure these people through some nonviolent ways.
		But right now, people that would do what they did to you and those buildings need to be removed from this planet so we can get on with our business.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and it's what they did to me, but it's what they did to us, what they did to you also and all the people of this country.
		And, you know, I have to say this other thing, too.
		You know, they tried to destroy this country.
		The result was so opposite.
		They made this country so strong, so united.
		I love America, and it's a great country.
		And, you know, in our time of need, New York's time of need, the fire department's time of need.
		You know, America's come through so tremendously, especially the fire departments, the volunteer fire departments, the professional fire departments.
		The generosity and support we've received has been overwhelming.
		And if anyone who sees that you attack this country, you're going to pay the consequence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, there was a lesson of World War II, the awakening of the giant.
		The Japanese feared that and knew that would happen.
		Now, that lesson is well etched in history.
		So these terrorists, they knew that they were going to do this.
		I mean, they knew that there would be a terrible, they had to know there would be a terrible backlash worldwide, which has, of course, occurred pretty much, excepting some countries, of course.
		But, you know, they had to know, and they didn't care.
		They did it anyway.
		I mean, that's the thing you've got to understand.
		They just don't care.
		They just want to kill us.
		They're the ones that have set the way this is going to go.
		And I don't think it can go any other way other than to kill them.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		You know, when it comes down to kill or be killed, you know, I'll kill.
		And I don't want to kill anyone.
		But if it comes down to kill or be killed, I don't want to be killed.
		So I'll kill.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what it's down to.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with the Chief.
		Good morning.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yes, good morning, Art.
		My name is John.
		I'm calling from Yonkers, New York.
unidentified		Good morning, Chief.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, John.
		Yeah, I live about 20 miles north of the former World Trade Center site.
		Was home that day, climbed a hill here in Yonkers and saw the towers burn.
		I don't have to say much more than that.
		It was the most horrible thing I've ever seen in my life.
		Thousands of people lost their lives in Manhattan.
		And here in the Northeast, in the New York metro area, we're grieving the loss of those people and will for a long time.
		But at the same time, there are millions of New Yorkers who have also lost something very important, a very important part of the heritage that used to stand proudly in Lower Manhattan.
		Now, as you know, there's a lot of controversy going on right now exactly how the World Trade Center site is going to be redeveloped.
		Obviously, the centerpiece will be a memorial of some kind.
		But at some point in the future, New Yorkers will overcome their fear of super high-rise buildings.
		And at that point, a decision is going to have to be made.
		Now, obviously, the Twin Towers will never be rebuilt, but do you, as a native New Yorker, and I assume you're a native New Yorker, believe that something, something perhaps like the CN Tower in Toronto or maybe one of the super high-rise designs currently being kicked around now, should be built at the World Trade Center at some point in the future, maybe around the end of this decade, to prove to the world that New Yorkers will not be defeated?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really good question.
		I mean, what kind of, should it be a memorial?
		Should it be buildings again?
		What do you think should go there, Charles?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think that definitely should be a memorial.
		You know, I think we all agree on that.
		It should be a memorial for all the lives that were lost, and there should be a special memorial for the firefighters.
		That's my personal opinion.
		And then I also believe the site should be rebuilt.
		But I don't want to see a target.
		And I think if you built a super, you know, a super high-rise, another tower, twin towers, someone's even saying triplet towers, three towers, to show them that way, you know, we're not afraid.
		We've had two acts of foreign terrorism on this soil, and they've both been against the World Trade Center.
		And I hate to say it, but if we build another target, it'll be attacked.
		I don't know when, I don't know where it will be attacked.
		I just don't want to see that.
		I have no problem building five 50 or 60 story buildings there.
		You get the same space.
		I don't want to see a target.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's other cities and other really big buildings, aren't there?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there are.
		But this has become, the site has become a target.
		And if you make it something that'll have a big impact, these fringe groups and these radicals will attack it.
		That's my belief.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, history's on your side.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So a memorial.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		A memorial?
		I'm not saying you have a 60-acre memorial.
		I have no problem with rebuilding the site, putting high-rise buildings there.
		I just don't want super-high-rise buildings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Super towers there anymore.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can't tell you what an honor it has been to have you on the program.
		And I didn't even have a clue the magnitude of the story that I was going to hear.
		It's an amazing thing you've lived through, Chief.
		And, you know, somebody said you were a hero earlier.
		Last question I've got time for is, how do you feel about that?
		People think you're a hero.
		How do you feel about that?
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		You know, I've said it.
		I think all firemen are heroes.
		I know a commissioner a long time ago said it that, you know, firemen prove their heroes the day they put on their uniform.
		It doesn't really matter.
		It's just the willingness to, you know, put their lives on the line for their fellow man, and that's what firemen do.
		So in that respect, we're all heroes.
		I was in the fortunate or unfortunate spot to help people, and that's what I was trying to do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Chief, we are out of time.
		My friend, thank you so much.
		The book is Last Man Down.
		Good night, Chief.
richard picciotto ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.

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