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April 18, 2002 - Art Bell

02:46:23

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - John Zerzan - Anarchist

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01:16:05

john zerzan

56:51

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert, it's the great American Southwest.
		I did you good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be at all 24 time zones.
		I'm Mark Bell, and the program listening to this post a.m.
		And you never, ever know, nor do I most times, what's going to be on this program next.
		Tonight is going to be very, very...
unidentified		Potentially very interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John Zerzak.
		I believe it's John Zerzak.
		He's going to be here in the next hour, and he's an anarchist.
		He is an anarchist to the degree that he corresponds with and sympathizes with the Unobomberg.
		He's said by some to have been responsible for the riots that took place up in Seattle.
		He's an anarchist.
		And I've never talked to and interviewed a real anarchist.
		Well, I've talked to some anarchists on the air, actually, come think of it.
		But I don't think I've ever had an anarchist guest, so that'll be a first.
		I would like to welcome yet another new affiliate as the growth of this program just goes right on through the roof.
		It's amazing to me.
		Thank you all.
		WWLZ in Elmira, New York.
		820 on the dial in Elmira, New York.
		The GM there is Ed Ryan, and the PD is Chris Bacon.
		Great to have you on board.
		Great to be in Elmira.
		So, there's a couple of things CNN's running that are.
		I just flipped when I saw it.
		I thought, oh, my God, it's the end of burgers.
		You know, I'm a real beef kind of guy.
		I love beef.
		I don't know about you.
		But I love beef.
		And CNN, Headline News, was running a story saying, Florida woman, first U.S. case of mad cow.
unidentified		I thought, oh, God, there goes my burgers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There goes my steaks.
		There goes my French dip.
		There goes my beef.
		But so going quickly to my own website, I'm heartened to find under the links that we've got the story.
		Here it is, Tallahassee, Florida, actually.
		A 22-year-old British woman, British woman living in Florida is believed to have the brain illness linked to bad cow disease, first known case in the U.S. But check this, the woman is believed to have caught the fatal disease by eating beef in Britain at the height of that country's cattle epidemic in the late 1980s or early 90s, according to Dr. Steve Ostoff of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
		So all I can say to that is, thank God.
		I just, you know, to imagine no more burgers, that's like, I don't know, to me, that's like a death sentence itself.
		I love burgers.
		And they're also running a story that says, super plumes rumble inside Earth.
		Now, isn't that interesting?
		And once again, I'm surprised, shocked, and pleased to find on my own website the story.
		Two super plumes of molten rock appear to be powering through the boundary between the Earth's upper and lower mantle, perhaps feeding volcanoes and affecting movement of the planet's crust.
		New evidence of these super plumes located between the south central Pacific Ocean and southern Africa come from studies of seismic waves conducted by scientists at the University of California, Berkeley and reported in Friday's issue of the journal Science.
		So there you are.
		The Earth's inner.
		You know, last night was an interesting program.
		It really was.
		I really, really enjoy interviewing Red Elk.
		He's really something.
		Now, I know that many will say he's just crazy and balloony and talks to rocks and does all kinds of strange things, but you know what?
		There's something about so much of what he says that resonates.
		Never mind how it said.
		Well, what he says resonates with me in a big way.
		And I know a lot of you as well.
		Listening casually, I would imagine you'd go, there's a nutcase for sure.
		But I don't think so.
unidentified		I just don't think so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's see what else goes on in the world.
		We're going to do open lines.
		Hey, you know, are there any other anarchists out there?
		Since we're having an anarchist-like night, it might be interesting to hear from anybody out there who would consider themselves to be an anarchist.
		Would that be you?
		This fellow is really something.
		I mean, he's living the life, you know.
		He's walking the walk.
		But, well, you'll hear for yourself.
		I mean, he's been involved in violent things.
		Doesn't believe in any modern technology.
		Doesn't use any modern technology.
		So you'll not see a website for my guest.
		First thing I checked.
		I wonder if he's got a website.
		No website.
		Doesn't even have a computer.
		Doesn't even have a car.
		A popular Amtrak train carrying tourists and their cars on a non-stop journey to Washington hurled right off the tracks Thursday in rural Northern Florida, killed six injured dozens.
		Well, what did Colombo do it?
		Robert Blake and his bodyguard were arrested Thursday in the shooting death of the actor's wife nearly a year ago.
		Police officers have taken Blake into custody at a relative's home in Hidden Hills.
		Good name.
		A gated suburban community where the actor moved after the killing.
		Where'd he go?
		Hidden Hills.
		He was arrested for investigation of murder, according to the police.
		Bonnie Lee Blakely, 44, you'll recall, shot to death last May a block from a Studio City restaurant where she and her husband had dined.
		You recall he said he went back into the restaurant for a gun that he had forgotten or something.
		A small plane, this really set off alarm bells everywhere earlier today, a small airplane crashed into the largest building in Milan, Italy, killing at least three that we know of now, injuring 60.
		And of course, it was the building most associated with Italian capitalism, and everybody thought, oh, God, here we go, 911.
		But of course, it was not an airliner, and tragic as it was, it looks more like it was an accident.
		They think.
		They think.
		Israel completed its pullback from Jedin on Friday, according to Israeli radio, posting forces on the outskirts of the West Bank town and allowing residents to search for relatives in a devastated refugee camp.
		Negotiations abruptly collapsed today between the Justice Department and Arthur Anderson over settling criminal obstruction charges related to the destruction of documents in the financial collapse of Enron.
		The lawyer for the accounting firm Rusty Hardin notified government attorneys that the company was not in a position to make a decision on any criminal settlement.
		We just agreed that we're just not there right now, said he.
		The Senate, by, I might add, a wide margin, has put a kink in the president's plans for drilling oil in the Arctic Wildlife Refuge up in Alaska, Anwar.
		The vote was a blow indeed to the administration, which repeatedly has cited development of Alaska's refuges oil as a centerpiece of its energy policy.
		Well, it's a pretty damn, even if we get it, it's a pretty damn short-term solution.
		I'll tell you that.
		The oil is going to run out.
		There will be, if we don't do something, all of my first hour guest last night, there are going to be wars over oil, and we're going to be in them.
		Oil prices are going to go through the roof, and it is going to destroy our economy.
		We had better get busy with alternative something, or it's, I'll tell you, it's going to get us.
		We're still cleaning up the mess here in Nevada, southern Nevada, from the dust storm, the horrible windstorm we had on Monday, which has succeeded in coating just about everything around with a sort of a dense layer of terra firma.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		Dramatic Music
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The five brightest planets visible from Earth have lined up in plain sight to form a spectacular array that we won't see again until the year 2040.
		So I may not, well, I might see that, but you know, I'll be really straining.
		I'll have to have much better glasses by then, right?
		2040.
		So, might as well take a look now.
		For the next four weeks, Jupiter, Mars, Mercury, Saturn, and Venus will appear tightly clustered in the western sky, forming a knot of planets that can be viewed in the evening despite the glow of light-soaked cities.
		In other words, these are bright enough to make it through the most polluted inner city areas, and it might even be worth a drive out to the country, huh?
		What do you think?
		The five naked-eye planets are converging in one part of the sky from now until mid-May.
		You can see all five at one glance, which is pretty unusual, quoting John Mosley, an astronomer at Griffith Observatory in L.A. Each evening, the alignment will assume different shapes as the five planets continue on the orbital path that will take them around the sun.
		Planets orbit in the same plane, like grooves on a phonograph record, only at different distances.
		Now, there are some out there, of course, who will suggest that planetary alignments and weird things that go on affect all of us here on Earth.
		I don't know if I'm one of those people or not.
		I don't think so.
		We're having a drought.
		We're having a really serious drought in the U.S. And here's a part of an article by Brian Hicks from a publication called The Cutting Edge.
		I don't know if you've been keeping an eye on the meteorological reports coming out of the East Coast, but governors from Maine to Florida could be facing a revolt reminiscent of Shay's Rebellion.
		Sounds overly dramatic, but it is not.
		In fact, there was a revolt of sorts just last summer in the West.
		A group of farmers rebelled in Klamath Falls, Oregon for exactly the same reason a severe water shortage caused by drought.
		What did they do?
		Tired of watching their crops die of thirst, farmers broke into the Klamath Falls Canal and released about a million gallons of water into the valley to water their farms, but it did not help much.
		The feds closed in to restore order and protect the water, and many farms turned into virtual dust bowls.
		The same pattern is just about to repeat itself here on the east coast, and most residents aren't prepared at all.
		It's not even two weeks into the spring season, and Governor of Maryland has already implemented water restrictions, declared a state of emergency in seven Maryland counties.
		Some think he's junking the gun, but the writer of this article sees a crisis developing on a par with the natural gas squeeze of the winter of 2001 and the California electricity crisis of the last summer.
		And I suspect, I'm not going to read the rest of this article, but it's obvious where he's going here.
		And he's absolutely right.
		As our weather changes, as the climate changes, if the results are less water, and here we're not getting much at all.
		I mean, even in the desert, you expect a little bit.
		And we have been having a drought for our area.
		You know, it rains a little bit in the desert.
		I mean, we used to get these wonderful monsoons that would used, you know, they'd come up and you'd have thunderstorms and maybe we'll get them.
		But in recent years, they have been noticeably absent.
		They've been missing us, changing.
		And so things are becoming even more arid.
		Check this out.
		A United Nations report indicates that 40 lakes in the Himalayas are in danger of bursting their banks and causing devastating floods with little warning as far away as 100 kilometers downstream.
		This is from the United Nations now.
		The lakes form as mountain glaciers melt, and this process appears to be accelerating due to the effects of global warming.
		Or let me insert here, whatever in the hell is going on, because I'm not sure.
		Unless urgent action is taken, any one of these lakes could burst its banks with potentially catastrophic results.
		According to a new scientist, to quote a new scientist, the floods used to occur about once every 500 years, but have become far more frequent since 1950.
		So in other words, here you're seeing the reality of what is changing in our climate.
		Right?
		Here you're seeing an immediate effect.
		40 lakes in the Himalayas, because these things are melting so quickly, are in danger of bursting.
		Now, I think the time for debate is long over.
		If you want, you can have argument about how much of man's hand is affecting what's going on.
		But I think it's ballgame over.
		The climate is in the middle of a change right now.
		A fast climate change of some kind, I think, I believe, my personal belief is underway.
		I just don't want to spend a lot of time arguing about why.
		I don't think it matters.
		You know, it's just happening, whether it's us or not or just cyclical.
		You know, who cares?
		To me, we should be turning our attention toward a modification of the way we do business and live so that we can accommodate the changes reasonably and remain strong.
		If we stick our head in the sand about it, which is not hard to do where I am right now, then we're dead.
		University of California researchers have solved a long-standing mystery for scientists trying to understand how Earth's climate can quickly shift between warm and cold modes.
		The mystery revolves around the source of a rapid change in the geochemistry of oceanic carbon that occurred just as the last ice age ended between 16,000 and 20,000 years ago.
		Based on analysis of carbon stored in tiny fossil seashells, the UC geologists suggest that the chemical change occurred because of dramatic shifts in ocean circulation.
		They have developed a timeline of events that can be linked to previously described changes recorded in the ocean, in Antarctic ice cores, and on the continents.
		Climate change experts say these changes reflect the type of events that could occur because of global warming related to human activities, their argument.
		An explanation of the mystery and details of the timeline will appear in the April 19 issue of the journal Science in an article titled, The Cause of Carbon Isotope Minimum Events on Glacial Terminations.
	There's a title.
	Makes you want to grab it right up and read it.
	The Cause of Carbon Isotope Minimum Events on Glacial Terminations.
	The authors are geology professors Howard Spiro of UC Davis and David Leah of UC Santa Barbara.
	That could be Leigh, L-E-A.
	An understanding of the relative timing of this event is critical because the greenhouse gases that humans are producing are likely to affect not only the warming of the atmosphere, but also the circulation of the oceans.
	According to Spiro, changes in atmospheric temperature can have immense effect on the flow of the deep ocean currents, which in turn will affect weather and climate worldwide.
	Understanding the order of events that occurred when Earth warmed quickly in the past can help us model what might happen if the Earth continues to warm in the future.
	Something that it appears to be doing very rapidly right now.
	We're going to head straight into open lines and then anarchy.
	Not that unusual, really.
	this show.
unidentified		Trying to get myself ashore for so long for so long Listening to the strangest stories Wondering where it all went wrong for so long for so long Hold
		on, hold on, hold on Do what you got So hold on, hold on, hold on Do what you got I'll be right back to you.
		I'll be right back to you.
		I freaking worry about any crime.
		If you get wrong, you can write me.
		Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This thing on Anarchy tonight should be really interesting because, you know, this fellow has no computers, no electronics of any sort, I guess.
		In fact, no credit cards.
		It goes by bicycle, doesn't have a car.
		And on the other hand, I'm the exact opposite.
		I'm enshrouded in technology.
		I love it.
		I love gadgets.
		I love cars.
		I love all that sort of stuff.
		And computers, oh my.
		I have computers everywhere.
		And I wouldn't know what to do without them.
		He does.
		He corresponds with Kaczynski.
		And so it's going to be, it's potentially very interesting.
		We'll see.
		Stay right where you are.
		Open lines are coming right up.
		Anything you want to say is a fair game.
		All right, into the night of the unknown.
		Here we go.
		First time call our line.
		You are on here.
		Top of the morning.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		This is John from Canoga Park.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How are you, Art?
		I'm fine, John.
		What's up?
unidentified		Last night, Dr. Greer came on and started talking about the flying saucers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		I thought that the highlight of what he said was that he's about to manufacture one.
		That's pretty good.
unidentified		Yeah, well, I immediately flashed on Joe Firmage.
unidentified		What has happened to him?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
unidentified		Just completely evaporated.
unidentified		I was getting emails from him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He wanted to remember.
		Yeah, I don't know that Joe evaporated.
		I think he was heavily invested in technology, and you know what's happened to the NASDAQ, so he probably took a beating in the market, I would bet.
unidentified		Well, yeah, I thought they'd make a good pair because they kind of have a lot in common, and they'd, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They might indeed.
		But boy, I'll tell you, what a neat project.
		Can you imagine if Greer can pull this off and actually demonstrate a hovering model UFO, he's got me.
unidentified		I'm there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'll meet you.
unidentified		One last thing.
		Earlier this week, Whitley was on with Sixto Paul, or he wasn't with Sixtopaz.
		He was trying to get in touch with him about these 24 people who dissolved.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I went to the actual Spanish website.
unidentified		You guys were concerned that, hey, did they come back?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Whitley's got a translation on Unknown Country, his website.
unidentified		Yeah, but I read the original Spanish.
		I think what they were trying to say in the original Spanish was that they kind of winked out for a bit and came back.
		They didn't completely dissolve.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, even winking out for a bit gets my attention.
unidentified		Exactly true.
unidentified		But it's not like they evaporated and didn't come back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I got you.
unidentified		Okay.
		I'm pretty good.
		Yo, puedablar un pogo español.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, you better not have just done something bad to me.
unidentified		Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		Yeah, even if that's what it is, it's still a monster story.
		You know, if they, in essence, blink out.
		24 blinking out, hey, that's big news, no matter how you crack it up.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		This is Chris from Minnesota, where today it was 87 degrees, and tomorrow it's supposed to be 42.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What?
unidentified		Yeah, it's just been bizarre.
		A couple of days ago it was 91 and about 68 and today it was 87 and tomorrow it's supposed to be 42.
		But I wanted to talk with you about Anwar.
		I agree with you that the price of oil really has a huge impact on our economy.
		And I also agree with that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sir, it huge doesn't even do service to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It controls our economy.
unidentified		Absolutely.
unidentified		And I also agree with you that depending on what happens with the supply of oil, we're in for a big war, which is why I think the Senate was irresponsible in not approving oil exploration.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know what, sir?
		You know what?
		I agree with you, and I agree with the president, actually.
		I think that in the short term, we're out of our minds.
		Look, we proved on the North Slope that you can bring oil down safely.
		Now, you can talk about the Exxon Dal D's if you want, but the pipeline scenario worked perfectly.
		Didn't hurt the environment.
		I think we could do the same thing at Anwar.
		We've got to have short-term oil or we're dead meat.
		But at the same time, if we don't start moving toward some alternative energy very quickly that's real, we're in deep cow pies.
unidentified		Absolutely.
		And that's what the House bill provided for.
		It provided for oil exploration in Anwar as well as other alternative energies such as the hydrogen fuel cells and so forth.
		And I heard that the New York Times ran an interesting piece interviewing a Democratic senator, an unnamed one, from the Northeast, who was trying to get a compromise on the issue that would have raised the CAFE standards on automobiles in exchange for drilling in ANWAR.
		And it was the environmentalists who wouldn't budge.
		And that's why the bill failed, unfortunately.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's going to be an interesting time, my friend.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Thanks, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		We should really be doing both.
		I think in the short term, because of the time required to get to a good alternative fuel source, we have no choice, and we should explore Anwar.
		Have to almost.
		But boy, if we don't get moving.
		If we don't get moving.
		The gas frustrations of the 70s will look like child's play.
		And I mean child's play.
		I don't know how many of you are old enough to remember long, gigantic lines at gas stations.
		Remember that?
		People breaking out into fist fights.
		It was horrible what went on across the country.
		That can happen today.
unidentified		Boom!
unidentified		Just like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just like that.
		All they have to do is cut us off.
		There's already trouble in Venezuela and Iraq with regard to oil, and so the prices are beginning to spike now.
		You may have noticed.
		And they're talking, rumoring $3, $3.50 gas by summer.
		That would be a horrendous blow to the economy.
		Horrendous.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hey, Art.
		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		This is John in Atlanta.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yeah.
		I remember him gas lines very well.
		I was just a kid.
		I was about 10 years old at the time, and I clearly remember thinking, am I going to have to grow up looking at this?
		I mean, lines a half a mile long waiting for gas.
		I mean, it was ridiculous.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Don't think it couldn't happen again in an instant.
unidentified		I hope it doesn't.
unidentified		But I'm interested in what your guest has to say, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, me too.
unidentified		I'm looking at a definition of anarchism here, and it says that it's a belief that all forms of government act in an unfair way against the liberty of a person and should be done away with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Oh, yeah.
		Absolutely.
		That's what they mean.
		All governments, all laws, all everything.
		Anarchy is exactly what you just described.
		It's the end of all regulation and law.
unidentified		Wow.
unidentified		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know.
unidentified		Interesting here.
		But a couple comments about the climate.
		If I'm not mistaken, last time you had Stan Deo on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And I know he keeps up with these things.
unidentified		And what you said earlier about this huge upsurge in magma.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I mean, that's scary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All of this, if you're a regular listener to this program, all of this is fitting in just like a thousand-piece puzzle going together.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boom, boom, boom, boom.
unidentified		If I'm not mistaken, he said that in the last 10 years, I believe, there's been a 600% increase in volcanic and earthquake activity.
unidentified		I mean, are we trying to, those who believe that man's hand is causing this global warming, are we trying to say that this is connected to increase in volcanic and earthquakes?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you know what?
		I've come to the point where I don't, I just, to me, I don't care anymore.
		We're not going to be able to stop what man is doing.
		There are countries all over the world, sir, that want what we have basically, you know, a couple cars in every garage.
		Now, this accepts my guest coming up in the next hour, but a couple cars in every garage and washers and dryers and all the wonderful conveniences of life.
		The rest of the world wants all of this, and when they get it, I don't think that the world can sustain that kind of demand, period.
unidentified		Well, I agree with what Stephen Greer in part had to say last night about technology definitely being suppressed, and we definitely need to really put pressure on any area we can to try to get this to come to the front.
unidentified		I mean, this technology and to move in that direction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how much money would you like to lay on a table right now?
		I would be willing to bet you when the time comes when we really begin running out of oil and or read that as oil becomes too expensive and the nation goes into crisis, at about that point, the oil companies will come forth with whatever it is that's going to be next.
		Want to bet?
unidentified		Yeah, but you know, they do say that the biggest reserve of oil in the world is in the Gulf, and it's untapped.
unidentified		So, I mean, there can be arguments made that we might have a hundred years, 200 years worth of oil still in the ground.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's say that's true, and we've got another 100 or even 200 years, which I don't believe, but let's say we do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's still in the time frame that means that we've got to begin moving towards something else because the supply is finite.
unidentified		Right?
		Yeah, the advancement Of technology and growth and learning will make eventually in the next 30, 40, 50 years, I believe, oil consumption obsolete to a great degree, whether we use it up first or not.
		They cannot keep the advanced technology for greater long periods of time from the human race.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If oil were to go, say, to $10 a gallon, long before it got to $10 a gallon, we would have my guest's wish.
		We would have anarchy.
		So, you know, it'll get worked out, and I'm sure the oil companies know what they're doing.
		And when I say that, I mean that they will have the solution at the right time.
unidentified		Well, I hope it's sooner than later.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I do too, but I don't think so.
		It'll be when the oil is not being such good business anymore.
		Anyway, take care.
		Take care.
		We'll see you later.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yeah, this is Andrea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Andrea, hello.
unidentified		And I'm in a place called Montrose, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Montrose?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where is that?
unidentified		It's just north of Glendale.
		Okay.
		And it's up in the mountains, and that's why they call it Montrose.
		But I want to talk about Tesla.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tesla.
unidentified		And specifically, did you know there was a city named after Tesla in Northern California?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Called Tesla, California?
unidentified		Yeah, this is in the 1890s, and it no longer exists, but there's not even a landmark there to prove that there was ever a city named Tesla.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe Tesla, California just winked out.
unidentified		That could be.
		You know, it costs something like $10,000 to have a landmark put up.
		And I try to, I don't know if you've ever heard of the Clampers.
		Sounds like a joke, but they're a group of men, and no women are allowed.
		And they put up historic landmarks.
		They dress up as gold miners and drink for a couple of days.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they call themselves Clampers?
unidentified		Clampers, and their motto is E Clampus Vitis.
		I'm not joking.
		They have a website.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Everybody has a website.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I sent my guest coming up.
unidentified		Oh, anarchists don't have a website.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
		No, this is a fellow who sympathizes with Ted Kaczynski.
		rights to the to tend in jail i mean every believe the same things like I don't know if you ever read it.
		It was actually pretty interesting in a lot of ways.
unidentified		well i'm not in favor of so many laws but i don't know completely no law that would be uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		that would be anarchy would be why Yes.
unidentified		I'm just wondering if they have any rules themselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anarchists?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll ask.
unidentified		But I'm really wondering why there's never been a real movie or a TV special about Tesla.
unidentified		So, you know, if you go against the...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why has nothing ever been done by Hollywood about Tesla?
		Boy, what a good point.
		I appreciate the call.
		Thank you.
		Isn't that a good point?
		Why hasn't there ever been a Tesla movie?
		Or has there been, and I just don't know about it?
		What an incredible potential movie that would be when you think about it, right?
		Just absolutely incredible.
		I mean, you could take the reality of Tesla, which is wild enough, and combine it with the myth of Tesla, and oh my, what a feature film you could produce.
		I have this feeling we constantly give away million-dollar ideas on the show, which is fine.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Art Bell?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would be me, yes.
unidentified		Yo, wow.
		First time caller.
		Listening to you for many years.
		I'm calling from Flagstaff, listening to you on KFI from LA, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Mighty 640 in L.A., yes, sir.
unidentified		Yes, it is.
unidentified		I'm sorry to bother you with this question, but you had a guest on a few months ago that interviewed a person in Germany, I believe, that is getting information from UFO people, and he wrote a book about it, and he's interpreting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, of course, Billy Meyer.
unidentified		Billy Meyer?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Billy Meyer is the man's name in Switzerland.
unidentified		Thank you very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Look him up on the internet.
		You'll find a million references to Billy Meyer.
		No problem.
		You know, and I thought, does anybody out there know, let me go to my computer-generated messages.
		Does anybody know if Billy Meyer speaks, if his English is good?
		I wonder if I could actually have Billy Meyer on the air.
		What do you think?
		Or, barring that, I wonder if I could get Billy Meyer with a translator.
		That would make one hell of an interview, wouldn't it?
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yeah, this is Rick.
unidentified		Austin, Texas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In a truck on a cell phone.
unidentified		Yes, sir, I am at the present time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just a wild guess.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		I have a picture that I want to send to you that I think you might find of some interest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Unfortunately, can you do it by computer?
unidentified		Possibly.
unidentified		I don't know how my girlfriend's computer is set up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, we're still not accepting snail mail.
		We're waiting to hear if there's ever any resolution to this whole anthrax thing or if it's just going to go away and we're never going to see it again.
		You know, I really want to open up snail mail again, but unfortunately, when you get thousands of pieces of mail, you've got to pay attention to that kind of baloney.
unidentified		Well, what I've been sent to you where I had to show my ID to Melody or what have you.
		Pictures I have, I took them out of my backyard.
		That was an object in the sky.
		And it's nothing like I've ever seen before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What kind of object?
unidentified		It's beyond my belief.
		I mean, I don't to me, I'm not going to say UFO.
		I mean, I do believe in UFOs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What did it look like, sir?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was like a gigantic mosquito, but it looks like it looks like a gigantic mosquito.
unidentified		Yeah, to me, it looks like a big insect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, could it be that?
unidentified		Not that big.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what that's what I'm saying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How big would you say?
unidentified		How big is this?
		Okay, there's the sun just behind the clouds.
		And that's what I was doing.
		I was taking a picture of the sun, but I thought it was a pretty sight.
		I took two pictures.
		Right.
		And I took the second picture and I got it back.
		There was something that was just going through theater so quickly it's right there on the picture.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		The way to do it, sir, is to get hold of a friend of yours that has a computer and a scanner.
		Have him scan in the photograph and send it to me at artbell at mindspring.com.
		That would be my first choice.
		Artbell at mindspring.com.
		I also have an address on AOL.
		It's artbell at AOL.com.
		Artbell at AOL.com.
		And I'm always hot to get good photographs of anything.
		And when I do, and if they're good, I put them up and share them with everybody.
		That's what it's all about.
		They go directly to the website without passing go.
		So either one of those two addresses will get the job done.
		And if you have what appears to be a giant flying well, I'm not sure what to call it exactly.
		Whatever it is you have flying, trust me, we'll get it on the website.
		Love to get the photograph.
		I'm Art Bell.
		Coming up next, our guest, who is an anarchist, a very serious anarchist.
		I've never really interviewed one.
unidentified		that's coming right up Same woman, taken by the wind.
		Would it say she promised you ever?
		Will you ever win?
		She is like a cat in the darkland.
		She is the darkness.
		She was alive like a star.
		Music How are you doing, you know me?
		Oh, my wife by your side.
		You do how much you do to rechart bell in the Kingdom of Nine.
		From west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		Or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ah, yes, Beretta, not Columbo.
		I never really watched either one much, but anyway, Blake arrested.
		Okay, coming up, this should be, will be very, very interesting.
		My guest coming up is John Zerzan.
		He's an anarchist author, as he writes books, who believes that our culture is on a death march and that technology, in all its forms, must be resisted.
		He corresponds and sympathizes with Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber.
		He believes that civilization has been a failure and that the system is fast collapsing.
		Zerzan has been blamed by some for the mayhem in Seattle of 1999.
		Of Czech origin on both sides of his family, Zerzan grew up in Salem, Oregon, took degrees in political science at Stanford, history at San Francisco State.
		After organizing a union for social services, employees took postgraduate studies at the University of Southern California.
		In 1966, he was arrested for demonstrating against the Vietnam War.
		Nearly 20 years ago, he moved north to Eugene, Oregon, where he's since become something of an anarchist stronghold, where there have been some very fierce battles fought against gentrification and development.
		He owns no car, doesn't have a car, doesn't have a credit card, has no computers, travels by bicycle.
		He's financed his riding by selling his own blood plasma, but now makes his living doing odd jobs.
		Does volunteer work with disabled people in the weight room of the local YMCA, as a radio show himself on KWVA local campus station on which he plays everything from classical to hip-hop.
		He has recently been in Europe, in Spain, England, and the trip has enthused him.
		He found that people there are ready for some movement that is pitched at a deeper level.
		He thinks the riots in Seattle have inspired the world by providing the opening battle of a new movement.
unidentified		So he just rides a bicycle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome, John.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good to have you on the program.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Thanks a lot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got to go on to a commercial break, but I just, I absolutely couldn't resist asking: you really ride a bicycle everywhere?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You don't even have a car?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		No, Eugene's pretty flat.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I need the exercise.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you swim to Europe?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		You know, somebody asked me that in London.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Did you swim here?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You flew in an actual airplane?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, we'll get back to all of that in a moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Stay right where you are.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay.
		Here is an anarchist, John Zerzan.
		John, welcome back.
		Thank you.
		Now, I take it that as you winged your way to Europe, you sat there hoping technology was sound and working just spiffy, right?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you consider what you were doing when I mean, I mean, going to Europe is wonderful.
		I've been there myself.
		It's a very different kind of place.
		But what about the use of that technology to get there?
		I guess we ought to start with just how you define what you are.
		What is an anarchist?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess anarchy or anarchism is a lot of things.
		I think most basically it's the effort to identify and eliminate all of the different kinds of domination.
		Maybe on another level, anarchism is the anti-globalization movement.
		That movement now, by all accounts, really, is pretty much totally an anarchist affair, to make it more concrete.
		And another way to look at it, it seems to some of us anyway, I'm not speaking for every anarchist, but I think it's, in a fundamental way, it's the desire to have a world that doesn't need running.
		I think that's an anti-domination principle or urge.
		I mean, there are a lot of different radical leftist philosophies that are so many ways to run the world, but what if we had a world that didn't need running?
		And to me, that's the ultimate goal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A world that didn't need running, where the trains don't have to run on time.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Where there aren't any trains, for one thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I take it, no planes.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, unless you can get people to freely engage in all the drudgery and everything that an industrial civilization requires for there to be planes and the rest of it.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I don't think you can if you have freedom.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How would you have gone to Europe without a plane?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I couldn't have.
		It would have Taken a while, and that's one of the contradictions that is certainly there.
		I think we're all really part of the system.
		We're all complicit in it, and no one could claim to be pure or transcendent.
		I think we all have a place in it at this point.
		So that's just, you could call it an hypocrisy or a contradiction, but it could be called it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I knew I had you right there at the beginning.
		But listen, I'm curious.
		Ted Kaczynski, I thought, you know, on the one hand, was a horrible man in what he did, you know, in killing.
		And you may disagree with me on that.
		But on the other, his manifesto was very interesting.
		I read quite a bit of it, and it was very interesting.
		And I understand you not only sympathize with, but it says apparently write letters back and forth with Ted.
unidentified		Yeah.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, we have quite a congruence in thinking about quite a few things.
		And I agree with you.
		I think that what is the so-called manifesto, which is really the essay called Industrial Society and Its Future, really makes, to me it makes essentially one point, which I think is kind of inescapable.
		And it's closely argued.
		It's persuasive, I think.
		Of course, I agree with it.
		I have to admit that.
		I already agree with it.
		But the point is that the more a society becomes technified, the less freedom there will be and the less personal fulfillment there will be.
		And I think he demonstrates that that's the case.
		So the more technology we have, the less of that we'll have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you essentially live as Kaczynski did?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no.
		Pretty low-budget deal, but I live in Eugene, which is a city of about 140,000 people.
		I don't live in the woods.
		He was closer to living his idea of the way things should be than I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Eugene is kind of like a little San Francisco, isn't it?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, or like a little Berkeley.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		It's smaller than San Francisco.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like a little Berkeley in a lot of ways.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		College town.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		With respect to what Kaczynski did to technological figures, you know, the bombs, all the rest of it, what's your attitude about that?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't endorse sending bombs to people.
		I think there is a distinction between the ideas and his actual practice.
		But I would also say that I don't think when you examine it that certain people are so innocent as it was just widely claimed as if they were sort of random victims that have no role in a very awful project.
		I think that's another point.
		It doesn't mean that I'm endorsing sending a bomb to them, but what is their role and what's going on?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kaczynski is probably listening to you right now.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Who is that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ted is probably listening to you right now.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I don't know if he has that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good shot, he does.
		I'd say he's listening.
		You wouldn't believe the correspondence I get from prisoners, so they listen to me.
		Good.
		Now, you believe that civilization has been a failure and that the system is fast collapsing.
		On some points, we may agree.
		I don't know about civilization being a failure.
		Why do you believe that?
		What is it about our system that you would grade, if you were a teacher, as a failure?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, where can you look that to not see the failure, in my view?
		In other words, let's take the biosphere, the most obvious.
		How many hundreds of scientists are telling us that there are just decades left to the physical environment because of the global warming?
		I mean, we know about the extinction of species, which is accelerating in the rate at which species are going extinct.
		We know about the dead zones in the oceans.
		Two weeks ago, part of the Antarctic ice shelf, the size of Rhode Island, disintegrated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would be the Larson B, yes.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
		That's the name.
		And then in the Arctic, I just read a long thing about that.
		That's melting.
		I mean, this is incontrovertible that that's happening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is, in fact, incontrovertible, but what is controvertible is that we're not absolutely certain that it's man's hand here.
		It could be a natural cyclical event.
		One interesting thing, though, whether it's being aided by man's hand or has nothing at all to do with man's hand may in the end aid your cause of anarchy.
		Because if we get a massive fast climate shift, man's hand or not, there's going to be a lot of anarchy.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, it depends on how you define anarchy.
		I think if people consciously decide that they need to dismantle this whole system and go in a different direction, then it'll be the good anarchy, so to speak.
		And if we're just passively consuming and avoiding the reality and it befalls us, then we won't be very equipped to make a good outcome out of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, let's talk about what you're calling good anarchy.
		I'm not sure there's a distinction, but we'll try and find one here.
		What is good anarchy, and in what way, if you had the power, would you go about disassembling what we have now?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, I wouldn't want that power because if I did, I wouldn't be an anarchist.
		But if people decided that they wanted the kind of community, which is a decentralized face-to-face human community, the kind of thing that we're speeding away from every day we get further from it,
		and the toll of that on the human spirit and on society is ever greater, then the Work is cut out for us, then it's time to reverse this direction before it's too late.
		And that's, I mean, another way to look at it, I am rather inspired by the current outlook of the literature in anthropology and archaeology, which talks about a natural anarchy or a state of anarchy, really that obtained for a couple of million years before civilization.
		And now we really have a much different look at that, a different estimation than we used to.
		In the past few decades, there's been quite a revision there, which is a whole topic in itself.
		In other words, before government and armies and religion and taxes and everything else, there wasn't any need for the state, and people lived in a very direct way, in a face-to-face way.
		And to me, that's the ultimate goal, is how do we get there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do you see, what do you think are the main reasons people say government or control is even justified?
		Why do people think government justifies?
		That's right.
		I'm asking you to defend it from their point of view.
		Why is it justified in their point of view?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it isn't very much justified anymore.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you can see the government's government.
		That's your point of view.
		No, I'm asking you to go on the other side.
		If you had to make their case, why would you need government?
		Or why do they think they need government and control?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, you could make the argument, of course, given the situation we have now, there's a need for police for the protection of people, especially women, because there's so much violence out there.
		There's so much violence against women, for example.
		It's plausible to say that if we and of course if we assume that things would only be worse without the state, without the cops and the army and everything, then if we believe the ideology that we're always fed, that if it weren't for those forces, people would just sort of kill each other and take advantage of each other, then of course you would believe you have to have all these forces of repression.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what makes you think they wouldn't, John?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kill each other, kill each other, rape each other, plunder, the whole thing.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		They didn't do that for a couple of million years.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		That's one starting point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, but wait a minute.
		No.
		Even if you go back to like 2001, when the apes got the spark of intelligence or the creator, whatever did it, and the first thing they did was pick up a club and go hit somebody in the other tribe.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, in the movie.
		Yeah, yeah.
		Well, I think that they're, according to the literature, people have the same intelligence, speaking of intelligence, that we do about a million years ago, or probably a lot further back than that, because, for example, people were cooking with fire.
		They were cooking fibrous vegetables almost 2 million years ago.
		The data goes back to 1.9 million.
		And people were sailing or somehow navigating way outside of the site of land 800,000 years ago.
		So, you know, if you want to look at the actual record, Homo or whatever we call humans back then had a lot of intelligence.
		They didn't put it to building bombs and other things like that or monuments and so forth for a long time, really only until about 10,000 years ago, which is just really important.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But the history of the human race is one of conflict and war, like it or not?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		The history of civilization.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		That's only 9,000 years.
		If you go before that, you see a very different picture.
		Well, very different picture.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where is that different picture?
		I mean, as I pointed out, the cave people were battling each other.
		It was survival of the fittest.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		No, no, that's, I really think the literature has undermined that for us.
		And it was a great revelation to me.
		But, you know, really, this is the kind of standard stuff now in the textbooks.
		In other words, I'm not making it up to make a point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how is the world different than I was taught?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I still believe for it.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's go down the line.
		First of all, there is no evidence of organized violence before civilization, really.
		I'm not saying there was no interpersonal violence.
		There probably was some.
		These are generalizations, but there's a lot of stuff behind these generalizations.
		Another one is people had to work all the time, and it was very precarious.
		They had to scrabble all the time for existence.
		Actually, the record, according to, you know, again, in the field, there was a huge amount of leisure time, and I could start citing a bunch of books, but I don't know if you want me to do that.
		So that there really wasn't much work.
		And that's kind of the reversal of the picture we used to have.
		Another stereotype is the cartoonish version of the caveman pulling the woman by the hair into the cave.
		Well, there's a lot of evidence to show that there was a lot more autonomy, that women had a lot more autonomy and equality than they did after civilization.
		There was much more gender equity there.
		And so, you know, things like that are really an amazing, they've informed my thinking a lot.
		When I discovered this big revision back in the 80s, that is when I discovered it, it really affected my thinking a lot.
		Because it gives you the idea that, you know, even though we're constantly told that, again, we would tear each other apart without the state and without the cops and all this other stuff like that, because people always did, well, they didn't.
		So then what do you make of that?
unidentified		Well, where's the proof?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, this could get kind of tedious to start citing a whole long list of books, but you could start.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, there are, I'm not saying that every detail is exactly idyllic or something like that, but there's been a real sea change in this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because your real charge here is that civilization itself is what has ruined everything, right?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, all right, let's hold it right there.
		This probably should be your theme song.
		In fact, I'm sure it would be your theme song.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		I hate the world today.
		You're so good to me, I know, but I can't change.
		Tried to tell you, but you look at me like maybe I'm an angel underneath.
		Innocent and sweet.
		Yesterday I cried.
		Must have been relieved to see this after sight.
		I can understand how you'd be so confused.
		I don't envy you.
		I'm a little bit of everything.
		All rolled into one.
		I'm a bitch.
		I'm a lover.
		I'm a child, I'm a child.
		When the sun comes up, on a sleepy little town, down around Santa Claus.
		And the folks are riding for another day, round about their home.
		The people of the town are strange, and the crowd are wearing a game.
		Well, you're talking about the sun that's trying to grow.
		Where are you trying to grow?
		Where are you trying to grow?
		Call our bell in the Kingdom of Nye from West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
		And the Wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest is John Zerzan.
		He's an anarchist.
		He's a friend of Ched Kaczynski's, corresponds with him.
		He's a serious anarchist.
		And so that's the discussion we're going to have tonight.
		I realize that John and I are exact opposites in almost every way.
		In fact, we'll sort of outline that here in a moment.
		Maybe that'll help point out the differences and get the discussion going.
		I love interviewing people who have a completely different point of view.
		That would be John Zerzan.
		We'll be right back.
		Once again, John Zerzana, and we should set something up, I think, properly up front here.
		John, do you think that most technology is inherently evil?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, partly it's how you define technology, and to me, the problem begins with division of labor or specialization if you want to go all the way back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you, well, let's make it easy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you own a computer?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You don't own a computer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're not on the Internet?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You don't drive a car?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Nope.
		But I mean, I use those things, or I could make use of a car out of principle or something.
		I just don't have one, though.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you don't think generally people should have them, right?
		I mean, that would be your philosophy.
		You don't think people ought to have computers.
		You don't think they ought to be on the Internet and moving in that direction.
		Isn't that a fair assessment?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think that's, well, that's one way to put it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is one way to put it.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		It's not to deprive people of things, but it is to imagine a healthier place where people wouldn't be dependent on those things or trying to derive satisfaction from those things, which are destructive.
unidentified		I have one, two, three, four, five.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Seven computers here in the house.
		I have five vehicles, including my RV.
		So I just, I'm enshrouded in technology, John.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		We all are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When the internet goes down, I panic.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		That's how far removed from the natural world and each other we've become.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But we may have different views of the value of these things.
		I'm two-minded about it.
		I've got to gas-guzzling this and that, but I drive around a little geo, three-cylinder Geometro 99% of the time.
		However, I still love occasionally to get out in a car that drinks gas like a drunk on Saturday night and goes real fast, John.
		I like getting on the internet.
		I like having information at my fingertips.
		I'm in that business.
		I do a radio show, and it might be added.
		So do you.
		You do a radio show, right?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that means that you have to utilize a hell of a lot of technology to get your voice into the air.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Just like tonight, that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, in fact, tonight, here you are on 500 plus a bunch radio stations.
		And, oh, I'm telling you, John, our signal is bouncing off satellite after satellite after satellite.
		It's going through processing that you wouldn't believe, equipment, high-tech equipment to bring this message forth to all who listen.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and there are a lot of anarchists that think that's a very bad choice that I've made to do that.
unidentified		They do.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		And I can't say that I know they're wrong.
		Maybe it is.
		I feel like...
		Oh, I don't think so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Probably not, huh?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I doubt that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If he is listening to you tonight, is he disappointed?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not sure.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		He might be, you mean in terms of Doing a radio show like this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, absolutely.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		It hasn't really come up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you get another letter from him, mention to him you're on a national radio show and see how he takes it.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder what kind of world it would be, and especially since even if we accept your argument academically that at one time things were chaotic but very nice with lots of leisure time and everybody was laying around and it was love, peace, and whatever.
		Even if we accept that argument, you must admit that now we do have civilization, like it or not, in your case not, we've got it.
		And to attempt to go to anarchy now would result in the things that you were talking about, you know, raping, plundering, killing, all of the rest of that.
		I mean, that certainly would be a product of an immediate switch or even a fairly slow switch to a state of anarchy, wouldn't it?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that that involves a whole lot of assumptions there.
		I think the question of the material deprivation of people in the cities, if somebody just pulled the plug overnight, of course.
		I don't think any of us are imagining that or embracing that kind of picture, but I think there are ways to begin thinking about other alternatives and other directions that can How?
		Well, for example, we have to think that we are dependent on this perfected world system for food, for example.
		But when you think about it, it's really quite irrational in terms of feeding people because the main idea of it isn't feeding people.
		The main idea is making a profit.
		So we have ended up with this system where, for example, a whole state grows one strain of corn or something like that, and then it's shipped all over the world.
		And there's so much energy and time and so forth involved in storage and all of these other mechanisms that require so much, whereas the rather common sense notion of what might be growing right next to you to eat, that's not even, that would just be thought of as just wacky.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there might be a fair amount.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		It's not very wacky when you think about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There might be a fair amount growing next to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But if you're in Chicago or New York or L.A., sounds like Chicago.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Sure, that's right.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		At the moment, that is only a privilege kind of a thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The only thing growing next to you is a new high-rise.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, then you pull down the high-rise and you pull up the freeway, and pretty soon you've got stuff growing there.
		I mean, just think of all the earth that's taken up with roads and freeways and sidewalks and everything else.
		Things could be growing there.
		I have a friend, a late friend, actually.
		He's with us no more.
		But we were arguing with some people about this some years ago, and they said, look, if this was suddenly a liberated world, what is the first actual thing you would do?
		Not idea-wise.
		And we were sitting on this stoop, actually, in San Francisco, and he looked down at the street, and he said, well, maybe I just go down there and start trying to pry up the street and let it breathe and start changing things.
		And maybe they thought he was a little crazy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pry up the asshole.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it's not easy work.
		I've done a little bit of it.
		It's hard work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely, yes.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Nature takes over pretty fast, though.
		If you stop fighting it, then you've got a different picture.
		Yeah, it's not an overnight thing.
		It's not an instant snap your fingers and everything will be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, to get to an idyllic world of mainly laziness or idle time, depending on what phrase you want to use, you'd have to do a hell of a lot of work.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, in the cities, yeah, maybe cities would just be abandoned.
		Maybe that would be easier at first.
		I mean, I don't know.
		I'm not in the business of blueprints, but I don't know.
		I mean, people, there's already a movement away from the cities.
		Not everybody's leaving tomorrow, but, you know, I mean, I'm not sure which, you know, it depends on a lot of different things.
		And how fast we could do it, it's obviously dependent on whether people decide that that would be a good thing to try before we're done for here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The World Trade thing up in Seattle, you had a lot of involvement in that?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I went up there.
		There's all sorts of media image inflation about certain people that if they talk to somebody, they have to create this whole thing in order to justify talking to them.
		I think sometimes it's about as simple as that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you think they blamed you unfairly for what happened up next?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, they had this whole scenario, and it was all Eugene, and it was somehow always behind some of it.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, that's really not the way things really happen, especially among anarchists.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, let's talk a little bit about what's going on.
		Aren't you fighting a natural course of evolution?
		In other words, we began probably as isolated tribes early in human civilization.
		And if you look at how it occurred, we went from tribes to little organizations to little towns to little cities.
		And pretty soon cities and towns were trading with each other, products, exchanging products and services.
		And then pretty soon regions began exchanging products.
		States, one state to another, when we had states.
		And then regions began to do trading.
		And then countries began to do trading back and forth.
		And soon, as you point out, it's headed toward a global economy.
		I mean, isn't this a natural evolution of our path?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		It's progressed that way, but I don't think it's natural in the sense that it's the course of nature.
		It has happened that way and it has enveloped us.
		But a lot of things developed and then we decided they weren't such a good idea.
		Take slavery in this country.
		That was developing in the way it developed.
		And hardly anyone thought that there was anything much amiss until there were various revolts.
		There were the abolitionists.
		But for decades and decades, people thought they were crazy to resist the institution of slavery.
		I'm sure they said it's a natural institution.
		Slavery's been around forever.
		What's wrong with slavery?
		But we don't think that way now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, we don't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which means that we have progressed, right?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, we've progressed to wage slavery.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That involves another question.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		It's fundamental enough a change.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, be fair.
		I mean, that is a progression.
		We had slavery, and you just said how awful it was, and you're absolutely right.
		We realized it was awful, and we ended slavery.
		That's right.
		Now, maybe of a much lesser degree, I'm sure you're going to start screeching there's slavery, wage slavery, and so forth.
		But we did end slavery.
		That's right.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Sure, I'm not, I wouldn't be a little bad.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Definitely not.
unidentified		Good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that was a good thing.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, better not tempt slavery.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Don't argue with that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		We have this thing called the Internet Now, which you're going to need a computer to get on.
		And the Internet is an incredible, absolutely astounding source of information at your fingertips.
		I mean, I don't think anybody can argue that.
		I can't argue that.
		Okay, good.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Okay, let me, to me, all of this computerization, the whole high-tech thing makes three points, well, at least three points, but I think there are three main things that it says.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		It connects us, it empowers us, and it gives us all this diversity that you were just referring to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, how come people have never been so isolated?
		How come people have never been so disempowered?
		And how come, as Frederick Jamieson said, this is one of my favorite quotes, we live in a society that has never been so standardized in the history of the world?
		what is wrong with this picture?
unidentified		I thought...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And he's suggesting that the world once had great diversity and that the Internet is murdering that diversity.
		That there are 10 great ideas or 100 great ideas in the world and they're known to all.
		And these great ideas circulating at the speed of light, literally, are killing innovation and diversity.
		What do you think about that?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, that sounds like, I'm not sure I get all that, but it sounds rather similar to my notion.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		There's a great blizzard of information and data, but how much thinking is there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much understanding is there?
		In other words, the Internet and computers are only tools.
		How they are used is up to you.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I'm glad you mentioned that, Art, because I think that's another fundamental disagreement here.
		I think that's absolutely wrong.
		That's a myth that we're all supposed to swallow.
		The neutrality of technology, just a tool.
		It totally depends on how it's used.
		It really isn't, I believe, because the technology really embodies the basic values of the social system itself.
		And in other words, the technology, including the computers, there's a political component.
		For example...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're right, John.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There is.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		And it's not the way it's used.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		It's the very nature of the technology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But, John, the Internet is so anarchistic.
		I would think you'd love it from that point of view.
		It's total anarchy out there.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, and it's actually free at this particular moment until everybody's wired into it.
		And, yeah, you can get online and do all these things.
		And they're not going to, I mean, they're going to make some, they're You know, and then you might find it's too late to raise deeper questions or it makes it harder once you get everybody lured in.
		But that's not the reason it was invented so that we could email our friends or whatever, our distant relatives.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you know why it was invented?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think there's a couple of reasons.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Wasn't it a DOD thing originally?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Basically, the concept was that you'd have a kind of a spider web of communication so that scientists and government people, should there be a war, like a nuclear war or something like that, could communicate under any circumstances.
		If you took out Silicon Valley or you took out Houston or New York, it wouldn't matter.
		The Internet would continue to function because of the Godzillion neuron-like connections that it has.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I thought so, yeah.
		Well, I think another thing is that when it became known what could be done with this, it really, bottom line, is about the movement of capital and the ever-faster movement of transactions in the global marketplace.
		And, you know, again, you can attract people even though that's not what it's all about because people can email people for free and all that.
		It's nice.
		But that's kind of just the trimming on top.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The British Prime Minister did say one time that what's happening with electronics and computers and satellites is one day going to all collapse, that billions of dollars, while you sleep, billions of dollars transfers through computers and satellites all across the face of the globe.
		It never rests.
		It's going on all the time.
		And one of these days, there's going to be some snafu, big snafu.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's a very vulnerable apparatus.
		That's why there was so much fear about the Y2K thing at the end of 99.
		It's that type of thing, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So were it up to you, you would abolish computers and the Internet?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it's more like people will step away from that for various reasons.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I mean, this connectedness, for example, it's a cliche, but we don't know who lives next to us anymore because we're all just crowded in and we're we're told that this is this great connection, but we're becoming less and less connected, of course.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But one option of anarchy would be not wanting to know who lives next to you, wanting privacy, wanting to see it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why not?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I think we're social animals.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, not all of us.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, we're not for various reasons.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I mean, for example, you know, I was rereading the Bowling Alone book, and, you know, there's all these figures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bowling Alone?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, remember that came out a few years ago?
		Big thing about how many people are becoming more withdrawn from civic and political and social stuff, how the rise of one-person households has just boomed in the last decades.
		We're becoming, for various reasons, just shrinking into these little zones.
		That's the direction things are going.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, but doesn't that have to be part of real freedom and real anarchy?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The ability to, if you wish, not be sociable?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Sure, that should be a choice.
		But in a healthy, it seems to me, in a healthy kind of social world, you wouldn't have that kind of all that much of it.
		I'm not saying it should be ruled out.
		Otherwise, you'd have a totalitarian system where everybody would be forced to be sociable.
		That's not what I mean.
		But I mean, I think there are these forces that are pushing in that direction, and it's not an individual choice.
		Just like technology isn't an individual choice.
		I remember 10 or 20 years ago when the ads used to say, well, you know, it's just up to you.
		It's your free choice.
		But of course it isn't.
		I mean, now in the schools, everywhere else, you don't have a choice.
		It's all, you're wired into it or else you're out at the curb somewhere, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there is certainly some truth in that.
		Hold on.
		Any child raised now and educated in America who is not computer literate has a very small chance of success in life, in work, in life generally.
		That's an absolute truth.
		Can't argue with that.
		You can argue with it, but it's just a fact of life.
		And I guess John is arguing with it.
		We'll continue with John Zerzan.
		He's an anarchist, and we'll learn more about all of this as the night goes on.
		I'm sure I'm Mark Bella.
		is coast-to-coast AM.
unidentified		So much technology to get this show to you.
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		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest is John Zerazani's an anarchist, and I have a feeling that's what he'd like to do with technology.
		Mostly blow it all sky high.
		I don't know.
		We're going to kind of find out more about this man.
		I've never really had an opportunity to talk to a real anarchist for any period of time, save a few callers who claim to be so.
		So we'll sort of get into more of this as time goes on.
		It's all very interesting.
		Stay right where you are.
		This is Coast to Coast A.M. All right, once again, here is John Zerzan.
		John, welcome back.
		If you had your way, would you basically blow up all technology?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I don't know.
		Blowing it up is pretty dramatic, but it might be abandoned by people who see its real result in so many, many ways.
		For example, I'm sure that product you were just touting works just fine, but like all that stuff, it looks real clean on the shelf.
		But when you think about what happens to the earth to get it, all the toxicity, all the drudgery, all the smelting, the plastics, the furnaces, the mines.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Would you go down in the mine in order to have one of these devices or pieces of technology?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wouldn't.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Somebody's got to, or else you don't have it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But see?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		So that's what happens to the devices.
unidentified		But John, that technology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That technology is what's enabling a lot of people right now to listen to your message.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, right, but that's a temporary measure until everyone gets rid of it all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But if you are to promulgate what you believe, you've got to be able to communicate it.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		That's why I'm here talking with you.
		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you've got to use the very technology that you have so much disdain for to get the message out.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's kind of hard to get around that.
		Whether you're just publishing a flyer or a pamphlet or whatever, you're still, that involves technology as well.
		I mean, it's all part of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As a matter of fact, you've got several books.
		Let me see.
		Running on Emptiness, The Pathology of Civilization, Future, Primitive, and Other Essays.
		Against Civilization, Readings and Reflections, Elements of Refusal, Questioning Technology, a Critical Anthology, and Questioning Technology, Tool, Toy, or Tyrant.
		That's one, two, three, four, five.
		My God, man, you've written six books.
		I've written a book.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've heard the last two.
		That's just two titles for the same book, which is actually out of print.
		The Questioning Technology is out of print, but there are other ones that are around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Last five, anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Five books.
		And you've got to get out there.
		And were you self-published?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		No, no.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		These are small outfits, but I'm glad you brought it up because I was supposed to say something about Running on Emptiness and hadn't done it yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, plug your book.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, okay.
		I've got a lot of other stuff, too.
		No, go ahead.
		I mean, Running on Emptiness, the Pathology of Civilization.
		Let's talk about it first.
		I mean, what's the book about?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Which one?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Your new one.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Running on Emptiness?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's another collection.
		Actually, none of these, virtually none of them were written as books, but they're more collected essays kind of things, which, like Future Primitive is the other one, much like that.
		that were written over a seven or eight year period or collected in the book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They cover a number of things, not just technology but Did you scribble them while a candle burned in the background in a little hut somewhere in Idaho?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		In a cave, right, with just a piece of carbon in the rock.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, I don't have a word processor, but I have running water and a number of things like that, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Running water?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, hot water, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hot water?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Pretty great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Even electricity?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
unidentified		And God, a telephone?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I didn't have a telephone for a while, but I ended up getting one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why, John?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, because my daughter moved here, and she didn't, she said, well, for God's sake, get a telephone.
		I can't even call you up.
		So I immediately did because I wanted to be in touch with her, but I was doing okay with that one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But isn't that a big advantage of technology?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, even at the personal level.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, it is.
		It is, in fact, yeah.
		Because we were scattered around and we were dispersed, and that's the configuration of civilization at this point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you are, to some degree, in conflict with yourself on some things, eh?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, it's just that I see I don't have I mean, I think I don't have illusions about these things.
		They're here, and yeah, I'm not going to go punish myself because I'm living on this planet at this point in time.
		I don't live somewhere else, you know, and we're all part of it.
		But the question is, what does it mean and where is it going?
		I mean, direction, I think, is just unmistakable.
		It's just getting so pathological on every level.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you realize how much the telephone company stands for that you abhor?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		How much it stands for?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the telephone company.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, if you take, of course, they're all broken up now, but as a whole, if you take telephone companies, they rule.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Gigantic, right, right.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, definitely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And without a telephone, I mean, how would you, you know.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I'm feeding it too.
		Yeah, I pay my bill, my phone bill, and you don't, they turn it off.
		Right, or they turn it off.
		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, you know, I just, I'm seeing some cracks in the armor here.
		You can't exactly manage to live the life that you really ultimately want.
		So you're making some concessions.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sure.
		Yeah, definitely.
		Yeah, I have comforts.
		I have living outside somewhere because there's no band society to apply to for membership.
		And if you go away out in the woods somewhere, the acid rain is going to fall on you there, too.
		I mean, I think we have a responsibility to try to wrestle with these problems and contribute to changing things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in your mind, what would progress from where we are right now, where we are technologically and socially and so forth?
		How would we make progress toward the goal?
		I realize you couldn't have an instant anarchy or shouldn't have.
		So if you wanted to begin making progress toward where you think the world should go, what would you do?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, the anti-globalization is probably the most obvious place where if there is a new movement to contend with all this, it is taking that form at this time.
		And you mentioned Seattle back at the end of 99.
		These mass demonstrations have gotten bigger and more militant around the world.
		You know, they can't even hold these World Trade Organization or World Bank summit meetings without the wrath of thousands of people in the streets, although September 11 has caused a certain setback in this country, definitely, because of, well, for obvious reasons.
		That has put a chill on things temporarily.
		I think that's very temporary.
		So in terms of that militancy, I think it's informed by more and more understanding or more and more questioning of what is civilization, what is technology, what is this trajectory of modern society, and how deep would we have to go to get to a healthier place.
		And so I think, again, I'm not by any stretch saying I speak for all anarchists.
		That wouldn't be an anarchist thing to do.
		And there are definitely some anarchists who believe that you can't speak all the technology, like you do.
		There are anarchists who think it's just, like you said, it all depends on how you use it.
		There's a growing number who don't do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's you I'm talking to, and you obviously feel that a movement away from all this would be appropriate.
		So how would you reasonably do that?
		Have you thought about it?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it's going in a good direction so far.
		In other words, real resistance in the streets, for one thing.
		And so I advocate property damage.
		Instead of just symbolic, polite, hold up your sign, do what the cops tell you, it's going to take more than that to undo this whole ghastly cancer of technology and capital that's destroying the whole planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You advocate property damage.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		But that's different from violence to personal violence, right, or other forms of life.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		It's very different.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but a lot of times what's intended to be property damage, you know, when people go out and blow up abortion clinics or whatever their cause is, they end up killing people.
		You would consider those to be what?
		Innocent victims, collateral damage?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		That's going to be a problem if and when it happens.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		But if you're, I mean, I'm nothing to do with blowing up abortion clinics.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand, John, but I'm just saying that property damage is property damage, and sometimes attendant with property damage is human damage.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		It's possible.
		It's possible.
		I think it's been avoided so far.
		For example, the Earth Liberation Front, they've burned down a lot of buildings and so on, but no one has been injured, much less killed, in all of these various arsons and so on.
		But it's not just an academic question.
		It's a real question of what people get hurt.
		If a cop attacks you and you defend yourself and the cop gets hurt, well, what about that?
		These are the questions that come up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you're right there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, since you advocate this, you are going to perhaps even have to deal with such a question, aren't you?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I am not just an academic, or I would have been a full professor many years ago.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I feel like I am a part of this movement.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fairly said, you could have been a professor, obviously.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've chosen a different path.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've never regretted that I haven't gone that way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What kind of property damage is justified in your mind?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, let's take Seattle.
		I know more about that than, say, Genoa, but, you know, the progression goes to the place of the biggest one was last July in Genoa.
		300,000 people in the streets and $50 million worth of damage done to banks and other corporations like that.
unidentified		I think in Seattle there was quite a lot of nice up whatever country we were talking about.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		But I mean, I think there's an awareness of which outfits bear a greater responsibility for the ongoing destruction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, it's justified to target outfits that particularly egregiously affect the environment, for example.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would that be fair?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		No, that's part of it.
		And I think there's also another dimension, by the way, there's a fantastic video about Seattle called Breaking the Spell.
		A local videographer here, Tim Lewis, made this, and he's marvelous.
		But anyway, the title of that, it refers to breaking windows, but the real meaning, and it comes out in the video, in the film, is that you break the spell of conditioning.
		We're all caged animals.
		We're all suppressed and repressed.
		And there's a realization that you can move against oppression.
		You can do something about domination.
		And there were people up there who said, for example, I thought we'd never see white people really fighting.
		And, you know, that went on for almost a week up there.
		And it wasn't just, I mean, it spread.
		And that's the kind of thing that's going to have to happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you destroy, let's say, a corporate building that you think is egregiously affecting the environment in some way, do you think that the publicity from that and the thinking of the people that read that publicity aids your cause or harms it?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, probably both.
		To me, the uppermost thing is the real inspirational thing.
		And in Europe, I found that.
		I mean, they couldn't get enough of Seattle.
		I was thinking, well, gee, it's already kind of ancient history.
		But I think it's a turn on for people who are tired of just going along under the heel of this whole system.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What did you think was so trick about Europe?
		What was so cool about Europe?
		What did you like?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		You know, I think the most basic thing that I got was that people know that something different is needed, that the old answers, including the old radical movements, the left-wing stuff, doesn't do it.
		That's discredited.
		That's a dead end.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where did you go in Europe?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, mainly Spain, but also London.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		London?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to Greece and Italy next month, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Aren't you, really?
		I'll tell you a common theme that you'll find in most places, perhaps not in parts of Greece, but generally in Europe, oh, the cities are clean.
		You don't find the graffiti all over their transportation systems, such as they are.
		They have a great deal of mass transport compared to us.
		They're very interesting, clean environments.
		Did you notice?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, there are certainly some urban differences.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Big time.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and it varies by neighborhoods, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It does, but I mean, generally, they're much cleaner and prettier.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sure.
		There's a great deal of charm.
		all the cities are pretty ugly in this country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I might agree with that.
		Dirtier anyway, although we're making some strides.
		You know, most particularly in New York.
		New York City has really made some big strides.
		But generally in Europe, I mean, that's right.
unidentified		But you know how they get that.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know how they got it in New York by a rather fascist crackdown, including shooting people.
		I mean, that's one way to clean up the city.
		I mean, that's Mussolini did that, too, if you want to go too much in that direction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But no, no, no, no, no, no.
		Let's stick with Europe and the differences there for a second.
		It's mainly socialist.
		And the tax rates there are unblinking believable.
		I mean, they're just unbelievable.
		They're unbearable.
		Yeah, the streets are clean and the buildings are clean, but the people are subjected to the kind of tyranny that would make America look like truly the land of the free.
		I mean, the tax rates there are unbelievable.
		That's tyranny, right?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not a socialist.
		I don't think more government is the answer.
		That's certainly not an anarchist view.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but you loved Europe, and they've got more government, believe me, than we do.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I loved a lot of things about it, but I mainly love the struggle against the whole system, no matter where you are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But they are the system.
		If you were in London, for example, I mean, the British, oh, my God, they're structured.
		They don't have near the freedoms that we do in so many different ways.
		They are far more restricted than we are, and their taxes are much higher.
		If you were living there and working there, you would be an angrier young man than you are at what we have.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess it's what you're used to, and that's part of it as well.
		I don't know if I would or wouldn't be.
		I see elements, I think you can see the elements of opposition in various places, certainly, and not just in Europe.
		But I think there's a rising tide of resistance to the way things are going.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There certainly is globalization.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's plenty of resistance in Europe, as there was in Seattle.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		And of course, in the third world, where indigenous cultures have tried to stave off the empire for hundreds of years, not just something, first world protest movement.
		And it's not true, for example, well, sorry if I'm jumping around here, but that not everybody wants to become a consumer on the model of North America or something.
		I mean, there are people who realize what a bad bargain it is to give away your authentic culture for what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, John, there are something and John, you're right about that.
		There are some, but they are the distinct minority.
		Hold on, we're at the bottom of the hour.
unidentified		see you right now.
		And my lack of education hasn't hurt enough.
		I can read the writing on the wall.
		Hold up home and give us the nice bright colors.
		Give us the green.
		If I could turn the page.
		In time then I'd be your girl just to pay you.
		I lost my eyes.
		But I couldn't find a way.
		So I'll set up for one day to believe.
		Tell me, tell me, tell me lies.
		Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies.
		Tell me lies, tell me, tell me lies.
		Oh no, no, you can't disguise.
		Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies.
		Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell, Brombach Kingdom of Nai.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It certainly is.
		John Zerzan is my guest.
		He's an anarchist, and he's very interesting.
		The things he believes, there are a few contradictions, of course, in what he says and what he does with regard to what he believes, but those are concessions I guess you might have to make to a modern world.
		I'm not sure.
		I guess that's the way he would regard it.
		We'll ask that, actually.
		Stay right where you are.
unidentified		Stay right where you are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, John Zerzan.
		John, here's an interesting topic for us.
		Do you believe in the collective defense?
		In other words, having a military?
		You demonstrated against Vietnam.
		I was in Vietnam.
		So we're going to probably separate on this issue as well.
		But I'm interested in what you think we need in America.
		Do we need an Army and a Navy and an Air Force and the U.S. Marines and Coast Guard and all these forces we have to protect America?
		What about them?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, they presuppose the existence of the nation-state, first of all, which I'd rather see go away.
		So, no, that's the national interests.
		I mean, when you break that down into what it's really about, you get to demystify some of the rhetoric.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I don't see a role for military.
		I understand.
		Okay, so then Hitler should not have been stopped.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, Hitler, the Hitlers that I mean, Hitler hasn't been stopped.
		There's Hitlers all over the place.
		We have wars all over the globe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But Hitler...
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		The way you stop that kind of thing is by having a social existence that doesn't generate all of those things.
		The never-ending, all of it.
		I mean, nationalism and...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We didn't create it.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		No, no, it's a specifically German product.
		But the wars rage all over the world, and civilization somehow.
		Where is it succeeding?
		I mean, what is it doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But Braz Tax here, John, if you had been alive, 58.
unidentified		58.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're 58.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Older than I am.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Wow, yeah.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Older than a lot of people are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		Okay.
		So you really weren't exactly alive except for the very, you know, very end of it, same for me.
		Now, if you had been, though, and Hitler was marching across Europe and the Jews were being incinerated from your political perspective, what would you have done?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, that was probably the only popular war in the U.S. history.
		So, I mean, really, the other ones, there really aren't any other ones that were popular.
		So there was a basis.
		In other words, if you mentioned the Holocaust, of course, the war didn't do anything about that.
		That would have been a worthier aim.
		I could see that right off.
		I mean, if it could have been stopped by a U.S. military force, too bad that it wasn't, that it wasn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But according to you, there wouldn't be a U.S. military force.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, but taking back to that specific situation, I just feel that it's tragic that that's not what it was about.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		But no, I have relatives that were in the military during the war, and what, 10 million were, I guess, something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm not supporting Hitler.
		I'm just saying it was a necessity to stop Hitler and what Hitler was doing.
		Yeah, one way or another.
		Yeah, and that definitely required an armed force.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		And there's just more and more of this.
		It never goes away.
		It's just a renewal of this all the time.
		It's just a cycle.
		You can have how many rivers or oceans of blood need to be spilled before we figure out the logic that keeps creating this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What logic, though, John?
		Hitler just wasn't.
		Hitler wasn't responding to love.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Certainly not.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I'm not saying that love in some abstract way is enough to stop this system.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then how would you have stopped it?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		How would I have stopped it in the 40s in the U.S.?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		I might have, I don't know.
		I'm not a conscientious objector.
		I'm not a pacifist.
		So, I mean, I would have perhaps ended up in the military.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's interesting.
		But other than that, I'll move on from that.
		Other than that, for example, today, you don't see the need for a military?
		Yes?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's put it this way.
		You could pose it this way.
		What if there was some kind of revolution that I'm talking about, other people are talking about, then other countries might just take advantage of that.
		You could put it that way, perhaps.
		And then what would happen if we undid all this stuff, including all the high-tech weaponry and everything else, then we'd be prey to the other people that haven't done it yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, isn't that logical?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		That is.
		That is.
		That's why it has to catch on pretty much everywhere, I think.
		You can't have it in your backyard.
		It seems like that is the way that would work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the police that we have now that respond to social disorder, or in some cases, what I'm sure you consider to be social order, without them, we would have rape, we would have robbery, we would have plundering and all the worst kinds of things.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Now, maybe we do have those things.
		We have rape.
		There's so much violence against women.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		There's so much where can you point out that these things are working?
		I don't see any of these things even working.
		No matter what area you look at, health and disease or education or anything else, I don't see a record to defend.
		I don't see the success thing.
		It's just bottoming out.
		It's not the answer.
		It's not working.
		It seems to me.
		I mean, I don't know what...
		It's just kind of like you get this big cynical who can support it?
		What is the amount of faith in any institutions anymore?
		And why should there be?
		Why are fewer and fewer people voting?
		I mean, you can see all kinds of signs that it's still here.
		It's still in power.
		But what does it rest on?
		What is it giving people?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to read you what I think is a parody article.
		This appeared in The Onion, whatever The Onion is.
		It might be a website.
		I don't know.
		But it's a parody, I think, obviously.
		It says, Nevada to phase out laws altogether.
		Carson City, Nevada.
		The Nevada legislature voted money to repeal all laws within the state and prohibit the use of any new laws.
		Laws have been good to the state of Nevada, said Governor Kenny Gwynn, between swigs of Jim Beam.
		But ultimately, after considering what's best for the long-term economic growth and prosperity of the state, we decided that lawlessness or excuse me, lawfulness just wasn't a good idea.
		Nevada's laws, Gwynn said, this is parody folks, will be slowly phased out over a five-year period, easing residents into a state of total anarchy.
		Gambling and prostitution have already been decriminalized, and car theft is slated to follow in 2004.
		Bans on murder and rape will be lifted in 2007.
		Though the elimination of the rule of law has been a topic of discussion in Carson City for some time, it only recently gained favor among a majority of state legislators.
		Critics always argued that if we allowed gambling and prostitution, it was simply a short leap to lawlessness, said Senate Majority Leader William Reggio, R.A.G.I.O., flanked by a pair of armed strippers.
		It didn't sink in for a while, but we eventually just sort of looked at each other and said, why not?
		Without laws, Nevada could offer a whole range of entertainment and lifestyle options never before imagined.
		As a result of the eradication of laws, more than 20,000 police officers and other law enforcement officials stand to lose their jobs.
		The law should be offset, however, with the creation of new jobs in new fields.
		Quote, nothing stimulates employment like lawlessness.
		We estimate this move will create more than 400,000 jobs in such newly legal professions as prize fight rigger, ticket scalper, drug runner, bribe coordinator, and arsonist.
		In the construction industry alone, some 20,000 workers will be needed to build whorehouses and install stripper poles in fast food restaurants.
		Though Monday's decision eliminates the need for them, Nevada lawmakers will retain their jobs.
		The people of Nevada can rest assured that their state senators and assemblymen will still be taking care of their needs, be they sex, drugs, or a quick CNO to lay down on the Lakers plus six, Gwynn said.
		As for Nevada's elected officials in Washington, they'll still be in Congress.
		But to be honest, they won't be doing a heck of a lot.
		They'll mainly just be hanging out, seeing what the other states are up to.
		Gwynn highly recommended that Nevada residents buy a gun, learn how to use it if they plan to remain in the state beyond December 31st, when all gun purchasing and gun use regulations are repealed.
		When the clock strikes midnight, January 1st, 2003, at survival of the fittest, said Gwynn.
		My lovely wife, Demic, can already pick off tin cans from 50 feet, and my son is becoming highly proficient in explosives.
		I strongly suggest you all do likewise.
		Reaction from Nevada's residents has been largely positive.
		I've been waiting for this moment for 20 years, said Reno blackjack dealer Dale Everson, polishing his new machete while enjoying a lap dance.
		Pretty soon, said he, I won't have to worry about speeding tickets or emission tests, only common sense and inherent decency of the people of Nevada will govern this state.
		That'll be more than enough for me.
		What do you think of that, John?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, it parodies laws, and it also parodies economic development, I guess.
		But, of course, laws exist in a very basic way to protect economic development.
		There's some other functions, too, supposedly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would agree with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They do.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		And that is the code of the social order, whatever social order you have.
		Law is its language, its code.
		In other words, it wouldn't do any good to just get rid of government.
		I mean, that's the classic anarchist thing, smash the state.
		You just get rid of government.
		But, of course, if you don't change the social system, then you're not really helping anything because it's still going to give you all these problems.
		That's what gives you the problems.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, in places, you know, there are examples on earth of where they have smashed governments and they end up with all these warring fiefdoms that spring up, these little kingdoms that people create at a macro level, building eventually to another government.
		In other words, it seems like an inevitable evolutionary process.
		Even if you smash government, it's going to come back, like it or not.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		It has come back, that's right.
		It's not a very promising picture, but it just seems like maybe when the worst of it is coming into view, when people consider what kind of a world,
		what kind of society their children are going to have in just, say, five years, and you've got all of these things coming to pass, the fullness of civilization, in other words, then maybe the scales fall from people's eyes and they have to get rid of the whole thing if we want to have a chance at some Freedom and health.
		And I think that's what's going on.
		I mean, look at what kind of a society, for example, is it that virtually no one can get through the day without some kind of drug or drugs, legal, illegal, whatever.
		Where kids now, I mean, that's not enough to give kids Riddle.
		And now, you know, kids as young as two are taking these heavy antidepressants.
		There's tens of millions of people on antidepressants, adults, that is.
		You know, the teenage suicide rate has tripled in the last 30 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, on and on.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I could give you two hours for you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I know you could, but don't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm just curious.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		That's not politics.
		That's not what counts as a political issue in this country.
		So they're blocking out all of the real stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But, John, don't you think that all drugs should be decriminalized?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, that's not the point.
		It's when you're forced to, driven by the actual anguish or suffering or discomfort, disease, whatever you have, that causes people to take drugs.
		That's not a free choice.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but in a way, it is the point.
		In other words, there are certain drugs that society has made laws about because they consider them so addictive or so dangerous or whatever.
		And you just laid all that out for me in a way, and yet you have to support the legalization of all of these drugs.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, but let's take heroin.
		It's fiercely addictive.
		I've seen it up close in some of the things in my life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's awful.
		It's horrible.
		I agree.
		And so you would legalize it, though.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		But the thing is, why would people want to be numbed out in such a total way?
		Why would they turn to crack or heroin or whatever if there was some kind of a decent, healthy ambience?
		That's only because things are so bad that there is one drug epidemic after another.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, it's human nature.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what we're supposed to believe.
		That's how we're kept slaves.
		It's just human nature.
		They have us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But show me when that wasn't human nature.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When people didn't chew on a plant or do something to get a high.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, we don't know the whole picture, but again, the first two million years, we didn't see evidence of that kind of thing because there was a certain harmony.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		There was a certain connection with each other in the natural world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe it's because they were stoned.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you don't really know, right?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, it seems unlikely, but we don't really know everything about that period.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We don't.
		And it may well be that there were more chemicals in use and that that made it an easier time.
		There are people who argue that, you know.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and McKinnon, this fellow named McKinnon, argues that, I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah, yeah.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Maybe you've had him on your show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I certainly have.
		Yes.
		Yes.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		That seems a little far-fetched to me, frankly.
		It doesn't fit in with the rest of it.
		But, you know, I'm sure you've spoken with him.
		What do you think of that theory?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My view is pretty well known to the audience on drugs.
		I think that the laws against marijuana are ludicrous, for example.
		I think that it is human nature that people are going to want something to relax with and that it's probably a natural thing.
		We happen to have alcohol legal.
		I view alcohol, frankly, as more damaging to society than marijuana.
		And so it's all relative.
		Really, there are varying dangers of various drugs.
		I don't know.
		It's an individual thing, and there are addictive personalities.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		In this situation, in this context, there certainly are.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Whether or not there used to be, I don't think so, but maybe we'll never know that for sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, my guess would be in that idyllic time that you're talking about that I'm not sure existed, that people probably chewed on stuff and partied.
		That's why I'm saying I think the whole thing is human nature.
		And in some ways, your fight is against human nature.
		I know you don't view it that way, but you can see the ideological youth value.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I mean, even granting whoever of us is right, relatively, but you can see the utility of having everyone think that and having it pounded into us from every institution, every angle forever to keep us in line.
		And, you know, that is very useful to the system of hierarchy and domination so we don't stray out there.
		In fact, they always said that.
		Outside the city walls, it's death and doom and, oh, you don't want to go there.
		You're lucky we've got these troops here to keep you here because it's not safe.
		And I mean, since the beginning of civilization, people have been told that.
		And, you know, it's just a kind of myth, whether it's true or not.
		It certainly serves the people in power.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You see, the thing was that then, at least certainly in some of history, or a lot of history we can document, the people who didn't live behind those walls and have the protection of those walls and whatever organization protected them, for the most part, died in bloody puddles.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		They died in bloody puddles at the hands of civilization, because civilization is a coercive project.
		People were forcibly removed into civilization.
		And there's a ton of anthropology that testifies to that.
		That's just not my sounds handy for my purposes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, you're right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, when we find tribes generally that have escaped detection by civilization, we usually go in and give it to them, frequently with disastrous results.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's absolutely true.
		Hold on.
		We're at the top of the hour, and I hope you'll be willing to answer some questions because there are plenty.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Let's try.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, this should be interesting.
		John Zerzan is an anarchist.
		I'm Mark Bell.
unidentified		To recharge Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255, East of the Rockies, 1-800-8255033.
		First-time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222, or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with our bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Certainly, as John Zerzan is my guest, many blame him for a lot of what happened up in Seattle at the WTO.
		He corresponds with Ted Kaczynski, the Unibomber, and has some in common with him, though he claims not all.
		He is an interesting man, and I suspect the next hour of open lines with John is going to be extremely interesting.
		And so if you would like to participate, you have to use that new, modern, newfangled device called the telephone and call in.
		I'm Art Bell.
		right where you are.
unidentified		Demonic sounds
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, back to John Zerzan.
		And there is one other sort of question that I want to ask.
		Actually, a couple.
		John, with respect to what happened on September 11th, what's your attitude about that?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		It was a huge tragedy.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I mean, all that loss of life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I wouldn't have a problem with bringing down those buildings if nobody was in them.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I think that would be a site to celebrate, to tell you the truth, but not this kind of suicidal thing at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But there was a loss of life.
		And in fact, John, it was intended to occur at a time to incur the maximum loss of life.
		You agree with that?
		That was probably the strategy, right?
		So how do you feel about the fact that we're going after the people that did this?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know.
		It's a predictable response.
		I mean, on one level, the Empire cannot afford to be attacked with impunity.
		I mean, that's just a function.
		That's just as automatic as anything.
		There's no way it's going to be.
		And that's no surprise.
		I was in Europe right after that, and everybody knew the war was coming.
		They were just counting down to see who was going to get bombed first when the bombing started.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep, yep, yep, yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But even saying all that, John, do you support the fact that we're going after the people that did this or not?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't support any government.
		I don't support the state having the power over human life to start with.
		So if you predicate all the rest of this stuff, then you're in this kind of situation where the logic tells you that that's okay to do this and that.
		But I don't accept any of that.
		That whole string of stuff starts at a place that has to be unplugged, so you don't keep getting this kind of stuff.
		Whether it's the nationalism, the religious fundamentalism, all these are just symptoms of these are the things you get from civilization.
		They're always the things you get from civilization, and they keep on happening, but with worse and worse results, because there's the technology to do more horrible things.
		With the technology, you can have industrialized Holocaust.
		You can have jetliners fly into skyscrapers at the scale of death that you didn't have before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you an atheist?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I would say so.
		I think religion is just one of those compensations or consolations that comes along as the real stuff slips away, then that's the thing, that's part of the progression to civilization.
		You get the claim that things can be healed on some imagined realm, which is easier than facing the real realm, which is here and now in this world, that that's where the healing happens, or else it doesn't happen.
		The rest is an illusion.
		Well, it's a comforting illusion where millions of people go for it because people are so deressed and so sad and so deprived, so you've got people flocking into churches.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then if on September 12th, what was your attitude?
		That we should, well, gee, this only happened because of the way we are.
		That's why this happened.
		It didn't happen because there's some madman, from our perspective anyway, who thinks that our religion is all wrong and whose main objective is seeing us die.
		I mean, it wasn't like they wanted a change in U.S. policy of any particular sort.
		They sort of just wanted us dead.
		And now we're responding.
		I just...
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		In other words, I think Islam and Christianity are both nature-hating religions fundamentally, and one competes with the other at times.
		And, you know, so you don't get anything good out of that.
		You just get more death and destruction, and it goes on and on.
		And it's thousands of years old, and the oceans are full of the blood of all that idiocy, and we still keep recycling it and reproducing it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you believe that we're headed for all-out war?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't see how they can be all-out war because there's only one superpower.
		I mean, it's the war of just the U.S. bombing whoever it wants.
		And I don't know if that's a war.
		It's like Iraq.
		You can kill several hundred thousand Iraqis.
		They're lambs to the slaughter because they accept or they suffer under a certain regime, and here comes another regime that's bigger and stomps on them.
		And, you know, that's about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Promise to go to the lines.
		Let's do it.
		First time caller line.
		You're on the air with John Zerzan.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hey.
unidentified		I have a question, kind of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Kind of.
		That's all right.
		Where are you?
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		In Seattle?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Seattle.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Seattle.
unidentified		Seattle.
		Okay.
		If society got rid of all the cops in government and let all the rapers and pillagers run loose, wouldn't it just be a question of where you would place your faith in good or evil?
		I'm thinking our society basically places its faith in evil by assuming that if you let all the criminals run free, that they're going to come kill us.
		And that's the kind of thing that I think that seems like a basic thing.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, well, we were kind of talking about this before.
		In other words, what causes all the awful behaviors?
		It doesn't come down from heaven, in my view.
		It comes from what happens in society.
		It comes from the pressures and all of the ways people are damaged and deformed, and then you get awful results.
		And then what do you do with them?
		But it doesn't occur to enough people yet that the way to stop this whole cycle is to think about what would a society be like that doesn't turn out all kinds of antisocial behavior.
		And I'm not saying there's no antisocial behavior.
		There is, but why?
		I don't believe it's human nature.
		If you treat people well, they behave well.
		If they're abused in a thousand different ways and messed up, then they're going to be dangerous.
		The answer is fundamental.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I'm not sure that's true, John.
		In other words, in a lot of really family-oriented, close-knit American households, some youngsters that come up for some indiscernible, inexplicable reason become completely antisocial and start slaughtering people.
		Now, up until that moment, they've been raised with a mom and a dad and a tight family unit and all the things that I'm sure you probably believe in, and yet they go berserk.
		So there is documentably uncontrollable, inexplicable, antisocial behavior.
		Would you have no means whatsoever to control that?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, but it's not a real simple, obvious equation, at least not always.
		I mean, that child, there may be a loving family, but it's part of the child exists in this whole larger culture and gets all kinds of other stuff in all kinds of other settings, you know, from media, from school, from everywhere else.
		And there's, I mean, we don't know.
		I'm not claiming to know how all these things exactly connect or don't connect.
		But, you know, his family isn't proof against the larger unhealthy situation either.
		I mean, something of a protection, but not much, maybe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, but before you call for a dissolution of all things that would protect us from anti-social behavior of this sort, in the process, you're taking away those things that create the behavior.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I mean, in other words, you don't need a defense against them if you're not creating them if they don't exist beforehand.
		I mean, and, you know, for example, there was no, and you probably won't believe this one either in terms of the anthropology, just to jump back there for a second.
		But there was no infectious disease, no degenerative disease before civilization.
		That's just about all the diseases.
		They exist before civilization.
		They are products of civilization.
		So in other words, what are we going to do about all the disease?
		We've got to have a way to deal with the disease.
		But what causes the disease?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But John, you keep saying these things that you really can't document.
		When was it?
		Other than perhaps Adam and Eve prior to the apple or whatever, when there wasn't disease.
		I don't know of any history where there was absolutely no disease.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I didn't say absolutely no.
		And I grant you that there's a certain irony here because actually it's greater technology that has given us a more precise reading on these things.
		For example, they can tell more from bone, fossilized bones from 10,000 years ago or more, a great deal more than we knew even 20 years ago.
		So now there's lots and lots of books that show that can Determine what was the health and the robusticity and whether they're disease or not disease.
		We know that.
		It's a matter of evidence.
		It's not a matter of ideology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but if you track the record of civilization, as many pitfalls and road bumps and potholes as there may be on the way, at the beginning of civilization, we had all kinds of sickness and death and disease and plague.
		And much of that has been eradicated.
		And documentably, during the period of civilization, man's average longevity has increased very dramatically.
		In fact, early in civilization, John, you'd be dead and buried long since.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
		Well, there's a couple of things to be said to that.
		One is all of these diseases that technology was supposed to have gotten rid of, not all of them, but a lot of them are coming back, and there's a whole host of new ones.
		Mad cow disease, West Nile virus, there's a whole long, in other words, technology always says just a little more technology and we'll have it.
		Well, actually, this is so widely known, February National Geographic has a long article, and that's a very orthodox source.
		And then that's what they're saying, drawing on all the evidence.
		So, in other words, it hasn't exactly won the day.
		Yeah, people live longer.
		People are kept alive, but it's another one thing to consider, though, is what kind of life, if you have to take all these drugs to be normal or at least, you know, not totally chronically depressed or have some of these diseases now, they're multiplying and people don't even know what causes them, like chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia.
		I could go on and on about that, where people are really miserable on a visceral level who can stay alive longer.
		And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with staying alive.
		I hope to stay alive for a while.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, because I was going to ask you, John, you said you're 58.
		You and I are both at risk, as we all are, at any moment, of say, I don't know.
		Let's say we get some disabling heart disease.
		All right.
		And without radical technological measures, even perhaps the possibility of a transplanted new heart, you're going to die.
		Now, if the doctor were to come to you and say, John, your heart's giving out.
		There's nothing we can do for you.
		In a month, you're going to be dead if you don't take this heart transplant.
		Unfortunately, we've got you on a list and we've got a heart for you.
		Do you want this heart, John, or not?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I'd take it in a heartbeat.
		I would cute, John.
		I doubt if I'd think twice about that one.
		Yeah, I really.
		Sure, I mean, again, it's like...
		Do you have a refrigerator or something?
		Yes, I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, to get that heart to you, my God Almighty, we've got to do the most heroic kinds of things to get that heart to you and into you and beating and keeping you alive.
		The technology is astounding that would do that.
		And you take it, you said, in a heartbeat.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know.
		I have a friend who went through the same thing and had much the same ideas as me and died in the 80s under the knife on the operating table.
		He chose to try to get some success through surgery.
		and ultimately it didn't happen.
		But, you know, I don't...
		And I wouldn't die if I didn't have to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You'd take the advantage of all that technology.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Just as I do every day.
		I mean, when I turn on the hot water and hot water comes out, I realize that I'm not creating the hot water.
		It's a whole system that people have to labor every day to maintain so that I have hot water.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're damn right.
		And so when you go to sleep at night, how do you sleep, John?
		I mean, you're sleeping on a bed of sharp contrarian nails.
		You just must kill yourself.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		You guys can buy one of those that you advertise.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Don't you go to sleep at night just having a real problem thinking about the contradictions and having them roll through your head?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think about them, but I didn't choose the time and place of my birth.
		And having certain ideas doesn't rescue me from this context.
		And so I'm not, you know, I live pretty much like anyone else.
		And, you know, those are contradictions, just like, you know, being on the radio with you right now is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it is, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you've sort of got to make your deal with the devil, so to speak, right?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess so, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and doesn't this lead to frustration for you and even ultimately if you can't handle it, the antisocial behavior.
		Well, what am I talking about?
		You've already exhibited a lot of antisocial behavior, haven't you?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		That's exactly the term.
		It may be so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, from civilization's point of view.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		But I'll tell you, I don't feel frustrated or oh, I feel somewhat frustrated when you look at what's going on.
		but i also feel very hopeful about things i think people are starting to see they already feel it and i think people are starting to We're at the bottom of the tail.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've got a break here, and we'll be right back.
		And we will lay heavily in the phone for the last half hour.
		I'm Art Bell.
		Stay right where you are.
		John.
unidentified		The devil went down the door and was looking for a film to deal with the bag way behind you.
		It came across this young man's thought of the fiddle of player pot.
		And the devil thought the ball.
		I got a fiddle player too.
		If you care to take a pair, I'll make a bet with you.
		You play pretty good fiddleball, but give the devil a view.
		I'll get a fiddle of gold against your gold with a counterfeit.
		My name's Johnny, and it's my big man.
		But I'll take your bet you're gonna regret.
		Imagine there's no heaven below us above us, only sky.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen to the words, because I think this is what the Johns were talking about.
unidentified		And all the people living for the day in my life, no country is hard to do nothing to kill or
		I'm going to die for I know religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye From west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255 East of the
		Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222 and the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295 to rechart on the toll-free international line call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with our bell from the Kingdom of Nigh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, when John Lennon sang this, a lot of people said he was a communist.
		John Lennon wasn't a communist.
		He may have been an anarchist, though.
		If you listen to what the Johns are saying or singing in this case, then I think you're dealing with not a communist, but an idealist.
		Somebody who has an idea.
		It's not practical, but it's an idea.
		I do think John was a dreamer, and this John too is a dreamer.
		and I think it's an impossible dream.
unidentified		Sounds of a fire
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Just like with John Lennon was a dreamer.
		He sang it himself.
		He was a dreamer.
		And I think, John, you're probably a dreamer, too.
		Pretty much of the same school.
unidentified		What do you think?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a lovely lyric.
		That's very much the case.
		And I think one question, though, is the dreaming.
		Aren't we dreaming if we're thinking that this we're not thinking to allow the present trajectory just to go on and given what it's producing more and more?
		I mean, that's kind of what we're doing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, John, I agree with you that the present trajectory is perhaps even suicidal, in my opinion.
		You and I just disagree on the methods of changing it.
		You pretty much think that it's got to be taken down to the ground, essentially burned down, and then the Phoenix rising from the ashes.
		I think there may be a way to do it.
		A different way to do it, John.
		But that's the difference between us.
		I've got to take calls.
		I've very much enjoyed doing this program with you.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with John Zurizan.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Yes, Wayne and Phoenix on Cape Yay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		John, I think you are exercising eminent common sense.
		I think you're a dreamer with your feet on the ground.
		I would generally agree with you with some qualifications.
		Maybe I tend to agree a little more with Art in that rather than taking it to the ground, the technology to the ground, that we should really seriously start applying the brakes.
		But I think it tend to be a little bit of a conspiracist point of view that maybe a lot of this technology, whiz-bang technology, especially in the way of our toys and our everyday gadgetry, is one way of distracting us so that we remain basically powerless.
		And I see a lot of the mass pathology of our society going hand in hand with this mass and overplight technology.
		I just wonder what you think about that.
		And do you think that there should be a spiritual component that to make your system work, there has to be a very broad-based spiritual component and people have to generally become more wise?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah.
		Yeah, I think that's...
		I mean, I think people did have a kind of communion with the natural world, and there is maybe that's my kind of definition of the spirit or spiritual having that intact connection with the world and with each other.
		And you don't have to invent other realms.
		You have the spirit there.
		I agree with what you're saying.
		There is a lot of distraction.
		There's ever more stuff to buy, and it's always obsolete.
		And people are working more and more.
		In fact, the gadgets are making them work more and more when you think about it, huh?
		I mean, the beepers and the cell phones and all the different ways you can't even get away from work when you're not working.
		They'll rope you in on the electronic leash.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can't argue with that.
		You know, I'm leashed very tightly indeed.
		So I can't argue with that.
		I mean, that's all true, but one can argue that as technological, even social progress, or one can argue, as you are, that it is actually the exact opposite.
		Right?
		Both arguments are interesting.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with John Zerzan.
unidentified		Hi.
		All right.
		Hey, it's Steve in the Virgin Islands.
		How are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm okay, Steve.
unidentified		Good.
		Listen, John, it's a privilege to talk to you.
		Hearing you tonight is just confirmation of a lot of the decisions I've made personally.
		Quick question, though.
		From somebody who has taken his own steps five years ago to basically give away everything I owned and walk away from a six-figure job, leave my sports car at the airport, the whole nine yards to start a whole new life away from seeing myself basically buy what I was owning and what I was buying.
		What would be practical advice that you would give sort of pseudo-anarchists out there for how they can continue along their path without maybe going to the extreme of living in a cabin without any possessions at all?
		What would be your advice for somebody like me who would want to continue on this road but isn't really prepared to take it to that extreme?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, it sounds like you have been taking it to extreme.
		You've been walking the walk, not just talking the talk.
		I mean, I'd be real interested to hear what you're doing.
		You evidently feel you weren't giving something up.
		You were gaining something by walking away from all of that high pressure, I suppose, and all of the rest of it.
unidentified		Yeah, but along the way, I mean, I've taken a lot of lumps.
		I've taken people looking at me like I'm, you know, and that's not really the issue.
		The issue more for me is at this stage in my life is just trying to wake people up.
		I'm currently, I've gone into mental health, so you guys talking about antisocial behavior rings a lot of truth to me.
		And what they're actually finding out with antisocial behavior is that it's actually an adaptive tool that people are beginning to use to adapt to an insane society.
		And I guess my question is, so I can let other people on, is what can people who are like me, who are listening to you tonight, apply on a level which wouldn't be as extreme as burning it down and waiting for it to rise from the ashes?
		But what can we do to rebel, to sort of do things that wouldn't be to the extreme of getting arrested?
		Because I mean, I've done things on my own that would qualify, like you said before, as walking the walk.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, by the way, on the mental health thing, I just today got the brand new Adbusters magazine, and the whole theme is mental health.
		And there's a couple of pieces that speak right to what you were saying that agree with the point about that it's an adaptation, the disorders.
		Well, I think everybody has to make that decision on their own.
		I think the most fundamental thing is how do we get the dialogue shifted into the real stuff and not just all this peripheral stuff?
		Because it's not going to really happen until everybody starts questioning this and working together and thinking together and questioning together.
		And to me, some of the rest of this actually is related to that.
		In other words, just to step back for a second, for example, the property destruction in Seattle, for example, that put on the table some new ideas that, you know, you can have all the good ideas, but you've got to back them up somehow.
		Well, now maybe we're getting to the stage where, quote, respectable dialogue or acceptable dialogue is going to include necessarily questioning things at a deep level, questioning these institutions that we all used to take for granted.
		So anything that contributes to that, I think, is the real work.
		Whether or not you're in the streets or whatever other kind of activist stuff, I think, to me, that's the real point.
		If we can all start talking and really calling these things into question, it's going to change.
		Otherwise, it isn't going to change.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here's one for you, John.
		Since you're on 500-plus radio stations right now, the Federal Communications Commission regulates the broadcast of radio and television and other aspects of things that go through the air.
		They do this because without it, there would be anarchy.
		In other words, the Johns of the world and others would just begin broadcasting on any old frequency, and pretty soon nobody would hear anybody.
		I mean, you would have such a mishmash of signals that nothing intelligible would get through.
		So in this case, you make the case that the regulation allows the intelligent transmission of communication.
		And without it, and with anarchy, you would not have the intelligent transmission of communication.
		You would have a big jumble of nothing that you could understand.
		So you would obviously be against this kind of regulation.
		I'm sure you are opposed to it.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I'm light you have me in terms of the technical stuff of how it actually works.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		But, you know, there are thousands of pirate radio stations, micro-radio, underground, whatever you call it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And many of them are interfering with legitimate broadcasters, neither one getting heard very well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's my point.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Aren't they so low-powered and local that that doesn't happen all that much?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sometimes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But, you know, and the FCC clamps down, and they damn well ought to clamp down.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, there have been raids.
unidentified		Yep.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		But I don't know.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		if you think that it's legitimate to visit some damage on a corporation that these mega commercial radio stations, I mean, I don't have a lot of respect for the stuff that they're pumping out as part of the...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, one thing they're pumping out right now is you, some of the biggest listeners.
		WABC in New York, WLS in Chicago, KFI in Los Angeles.
		We're talking some of the biggest radio stations in the entire country right now, and they're pumping out you.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Another contradiction, eh?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A big one, too.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		But I'd really rather, I mean, I'm not certainly not trashing this opportunity for this conversation tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But with anarchy on the airwaves, this conversation wouldn't be happening.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, not on a national coast-to-coast deal, but that's not the ideal.
		I mean, if we're, and I am talking about an extremely decentralized, localized thing, and if there was the technology for it at all, I mean, I could as well imagine that there's a lot of little, tiny, low-powered ones that are not, that can cooperate in some way and still be very, very localized instead of one voice that booms across the whole country.
		I'm frankly uncomfortable with that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you know, but it is the only way, and the reason you're doing it is because it's the only way you can get your message to be received by millions, an absolute necessity in today's civilization.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's true.
		But I'm also, I mean, I just, I'm a bundle of contradictions here, but I'm actually also uncomfortable with the idea that any one person's idea or just a few people's ideas would have that much influence.
		In other words, the real healthy thing would be, and I hope we get there real soon, where everybody's ideas are part of this, and it doesn't even require anybody who's writing books or otherwise to be on some national radio or TV talking about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, so then, if your being on this program tonight succeeded in converting millions of people to your point of view, that would be a bad thing?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, and I would be out of business in terms of this role very, very happily because I am uncomfortable with the contradictions of it.
		I mean, I'm not inflating my importance or anything, but, you know, that's part of the goal, though, is to break this all down to where you don't have this massified, nationalized culture where just a couple of people get heard.
		How do you get past that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But, John, doesn't the fact that you are being heard legitimately without being torn apart here, doesn't that validate the system in a way?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, the amount of freedom, you know, this great First Amendment thing we have, here you are, a gigantic contrarian with even some violent tendency, perhaps, and you're on the air speaking.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		So far, I have friends from Eugene that are in prison right now, and the way things are going just in terms of just the legal climate and all that stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you blow up buildings, you're probably going to jail.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, they're not in prison for blowing up buildings, but anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are they in prison just for speaking?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		No, they're not.
		They're not.
		Right.
		I don't want to give that impression.
		I'm not paranoid to the degree where I think that they're going to slap people in prison for the wrong ideas.
		That's not happening yet, and I think there'd be huge resistance in this country if they tried to do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I'm trying to say that your presence here is, to some degree, a demonstration of one positive aspect of our civilization.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are some freedoms.
		Yeah, people can speak out, and people need to speak out.
		And yeah, I'm trying to take advantage of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, and you are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with John Zerzan.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi, Art.
		How are you doing?
		Okay.
		First of all, I'd like to talk about what happened in Seattle.
		I'm Dan from Eugene, Oregon.
		Okay.
		And the people who demonstrated in Seattle weren't all anarchists.
		The vast majority of them were nonviolent and opposed to property damage.
		They were also opposed to corporate domination of our world governments and our personal selves.
		In fact, John Sweeney was a member of the protesters at the World Trade Organization in Seattle.
		He's the president of the AFL-CIO.
		He led a bunch of blue-collar workers who took their vacation times to demonstrate.
		Anyway, that being said, I would also like to talk about anarchy.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Those same unions that are trying to drill in the Arctic right now, that's quite an alliance.
		I'm afraid that doesn't go very far, does it?
		If you trust in the union bosses to be part of the liberation, you'll be waiting a long time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, caller went away.
		Actually, they just voted down the president's intention to drill in Anwar.
		Had you heard that?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		No, no.
unidentified		No, no?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		That's good news.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure if it is or not.
		I mean, in the short term, we're going to need the oil.
		We need to make a very fast transition to alternative fuels, but probably in the short term, we're going to need the oil.
		So I don't know if it's good news or not.
		I mean, we did on the North Slope, John, other than the Exxon Valdez, which was a shipping disaster, the pipeline from the North Slope has been, frankly, fairly environmentally friendly.
		It hasn't, in fact, caribou up there kind of cozy up to the pipeline because it's warm and they like it and they seem to reproduce a lot around it.
		And it hasn't really been a bad thing.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Well, the question of energy, though, if you want alternative sources of energy or the old sources or any sources, but for what?
		I mean, to run the same system.
		I mean, that isn't that, to me, that's the question, whether we should keep it running.
		There's a lot of things that should never have been done, but now we're scrambling to have the energy to keep them going to build more freeways and destroy more of everything all over the world.
		I mean, I don't want any energy for that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		that's the difference so between the two of us i a i want technology to march forward but i want to do it intelligently and i think we need to start We need green energy.
		We need solar panels.
		We need wind generation.
		That sort of thing.
		That's, I guess, my compromise and sort of where I might meet you a little bit, but you don't even want that.
unidentified		You want to just sort of...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you are.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, in a sense.
		And when you look at all these things, I mean, you know, it's everybody's decision or opinion as to how much of this do we keep running.
		And if you just replace all the energy sources, like I guess I sort of just said, by new ones, you don't change anything, except you just have different sources of energy.
		you've still got the same industrial civilization.
		You're just running it some other way.
		And some of these things, by the way, they're not very non-toxic.
		I mean, some of these things, you know, they take a lot of hit to produce these panels and so on.
		It's not like that's perfect any more than, say, the bike that I'm riding.
		I mean, that comes out of a factory and working and metal extraction and everything else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, even petroleum products.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, look at your tires.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		That's right.
		I realize that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So.
unidentified		Maybe I should do more walking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, those shoes you wear, I think there's a lot of petroleum probably in those, too.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Yep, I bet you're right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, you could always go with bare feet.
		Listen, I want to give you a chance.
		We're running out of time here real quickly.
		It's been an awful lot of fun.
		Your book is Running on Emptiness, the Pathology of Civilization.
		Available where?
		On Amazon, that kind of place?
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		I guess so, yeah.
		It's around and about.
		Earl House is a pretty good distributor, I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Amazon.com.
		You're going to need a computer for that, folks.
		And of course, we have a link on my webpage.
		John wouldn't know about that either, though.
		Bookstores, they can get it.
		Bookstores.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think so.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Thanks for mentioning it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're very welcome.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It actually has been a lot of fun.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Same here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, we'll do it again sometime, John.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Terrific.
john zerzan ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		I'm so sorry we're out of time.
		Really could have gone on mostly forever with this.
		Very, very interesting.
		John Zerzan, an anarchist, to the point of violence, and certainly some cases.
		And now you've heard what he's had to say, and you can digest and think about it, and think if it makes sense to you, or if there were too many contradictions there for you.
		It's all up to you.
		That's what it's all about.
		I'm Art Bell.

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