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April 18, 2002 - Art Bell

02:46:22

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - John Zerzan - Anarchist

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	For my desert, there's a great American southwest side to do. Good evening, good morning, good
	afternoon, wherever you may be in all 24 of Earth's time zones.
	I'm Art Bell, and the program you're listening to is Coast to Coast AM.
	And you never, ever know, nor do I most times, what's going to be on this program next.
	Tonight is going to be very, very interesting.
	Potentially very interesting.
	John Zurzan.
	I believe it's John Zurzan.
	He is going to be here in the next hour, and he's an anarchist.
	He is an anarchist to the degree that he corresponds with and sympathizes with Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber.
	He's said by some to have been responsible for the riots that took place up in Seattle.
	He's an anarchist, and I've never talked and interviewed Well, I've talked to some anarchists on the air, actually, come to think of it.
	But I don't think I've ever had an anarchist guest, so that'll be a first.
	I would like to welcome yet another new affiliate, as the growth of this program just goes right on through the roof.
	It's amazing to me.
	Thank you all.
	WWLZ in Elmira, New York.
	820 on the dial in Elmira, New York.
	The GM there is Ed Ryan, and the PD is Chris Bacon.
	Great to have you on board.
	Great to be in Elmira.
	So, uh, there's a couple of things CNN's running that are... I just flipped when I saw it.
	I thought, oh my god, it's the end of burgers.
	You know, I'm a real beef kind of guy.
	I love beef.
	I don't know about you.
	But I love beef, and CNN headline news was running a story saying, Florida woman, first U.S.
	case of mad cow.
	I thought, oh God, there goes my burgers, there goes my steaks, there goes my French dip, there goes my beef.
	So, going quickly to my own website, I'm heartened to find, under the links, that we've got the story.
	Here it is, Tallahassee, Florida, actually.
	A 22-year-old British woman, living in Florida, is believed to have the brain illness linked to Mad Cow Disease, first known case in the U.S.
	But, check this, the woman is believed to have caught the fatal disease by eating beef in Britain at the height of that country's cattle epidemic in the late 1980s or early 90s, according to Dr. Steve Ostroff of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
	So, all I can say to that is, thank God.
	I just, you know, to imagine no more burgers That's like a... I don't know, to me, that's like a death sentence itself.
	I love burgers.
	And they're also running a story that says, Super Plumes Rumble Inside Earth.
	Now, isn't that interesting?
	And once again, I'm surprised, shocked, and pleased to find on my own website the story.
	Two super plumes of molten rock appear to be powering through the boundary between the Earth's upper and lower mantle, perhaps feeding volcanoes and affecting movement of the planet's crust.
	New evidence of these super plumes located between the South Central Pacific Ocean and Southern Africa come from studies of seismic waves conducted by scientists at the University of California, Berkeley And reported in Friday's issue of the Journal Science, so there you are.
	The Earth's inner... You know, last night was an interesting program.
	It really was.
	I really, really enjoy interviewing Red Elk.
	He's really something.
	Now, I know that many will say he's just crazy and loony and talks to rocks and does all kinds of strange things, but you know what?
	There's something about so much of what he says that resonates.
	Never mind how it's said, but what he says resonates with me in a big way.
	And I know a lot of you as well.
	Listening casually, I would imagine you'd go, there's a nutcase for sure.
	But I don't think so.
	I just don't think so.
	Let's see what else goes on in the world.
	We're going to do open lines.
	Hey, you know, are there any other anarchists out there?
	Since we're having an anarchist-like night, it might be interesting to hear from anybody out there who would consider themselves to be an anarchist.
	Would that be you?
	This fellow is really something.
	I mean, he's living the life, you know?
	He's walking the walk.
	But, well, you'll hear for yourself.
	I mean, he's been involved in violent things, doesn't believe in any modern technology, doesn't use any modern technology, so you'll not see a website.
	For my guess, first thing I checked, I wonder if he's got a website.
	Nope.
	No website.
	Doesn't even have a computer.
	Doesn't even have a car.
	A popular Amtrak train carrying tourists and their cars on a non-stop journey to Washington hurled right off the tracks Thursday in rural northern Florida, killed six injured dozens.
	Well, did Columbo do it?
	Robert Blake And his bodyguard were arrested Thursday in the shooting death of the actor's wife nearly a year ago.
	Police officers have taken Blake into custody at a relative's home in Hidden Hills.
	Good name.
	A gated suburban community where the actor moved after the killing.
	Where'd he go?
	Hidden Hills.
	He was arrested for Investigation of murder, according to the police.
	Bonnie Lee Blakely, 44, you'll recall, shot to death last May a block from a Studio City restaurant where she and her husband had dined.
	You'll recall he said he went back into the restaurant for a gun that he had forgotten or something.
	A small plane, this really set off alarm bells everywhere earlier today, a small airplane, Uh, crashed into the largest building in Milan, Italy, uh, killing, uh, at least three that we know of now, injuring 60.
	And of course, uh, it was, uh, the building most associated with Italian capitalism.
	And everybody thought, Oh God, here we go. 911.
	But of course it was not an airliner, and tragic as it was, it looks more like it was an accident.
	They think.
	They think.
	Israel completed its pullback from Jenin on Friday, according to Israeli radio, posting forces on the outskirts of the West Bank town and allowing residents to search for relatives in a devastated refugee camp.
	Negotiations abruptly collapsed today between the Justice Department and Arthur Anderson over settling criminal obstruction charges related to the destruction of documents in the financial collapse of Enron.
	The lawyer for the accounting firm, Rusty Hardin, notified government attorneys that the company was not in a position to make a decision on any criminal settlement.
	We just agreed That we're just not there right now, said he.
	The Senate, by, I might add, a wide margin, has put a kink in the President's plans for drilling oil in the Arctic Wildlife Refuge up in Alaska, Anwar.
	The vote was a blow indeed to the administration, which repeatedly has cited development of Alaska's Refuge's oil as a centerpiece of its energy policy.
	Well, it's a pretty damn... even if we get it, it's a pretty damn short-term solution.
	I'll tell you that.
	The oil is going to run out.
	There will be, if we don't do something, a la my first hour guest last night, there are going to be wars over oil.
	And we're going to be in them.
	Oil prices are going to go through the roof and it is going to destroy our economy.
	We had better get busy with alternative something or it's, I'll tell you, it's going to get us.
	We're still cleaning up the mess here in Nevada.
	Southern Nevada from the dust storm, the horrible windstorm we had on Monday, which has succeeded in coating just about everything around with a sort of a dense layer of terra firma.
	We'll be right back.
	The five brightest planets visible from Earth have lined up in plain sight to form a spectacular
	array that we won't see again until the year 2040.
	40.
	So I may not, uh, well, I might see that.
	But, you know, I'll be really straining.
	I'll have to have much better glasses by then, right?
	2040.
	So, might as well take a look now.
	For the next four weeks, Jupiter, Mars, Mercury, Saturn, and Venus will appear tightly clustered in the western sky, forming a knot of planets that can be viewed in the evening despite the glow of light-soaked cities.
	In other words, these are bright enough to make it through the most polluted inner city areas, and it might even be worth a drive out to the country, huh?
	What do you think?
	The five naked-eye planets are converging in one part of the sky from now until mid-May.
	You can see all five at one glance, which is pretty unusual, quoting John Mosley, an astronomer at Griffith Observatory in L.A.
	Each evening, the alignment will assume different shapes as the five planets continue on the orbital path that will take them around the Sun.
	Planets orbit in the same plane like grooves on a phonograph record only at different distances.
	Now there are some out there, of course, who will suggest that planetary alignments and weird things that go on affect all of us here on Earth.
	I don't know if I'm one of those people or not.
	I don't think so.
	We're having a drought.
	We're having a really serious drought in the US.
	And here's a part of an article by Brian Hicks from a publication called The Cutting Edge.
	I don't know if you've been keeping an eye on the meteorological reports coming out of the East Coast, but governors from Maine to Florida could be facing a revolt reminiscent of Shays' Rebellion.
	Sounds overly dramatic, but it is not.
	In fact, there was a revolt of sorts just last summer in the West.
	A group of farmers rebelled in Klamath Falls, Oregon for exactly the same reason, a severe water shortage caused by drought.
	What did they do?
	Tired of watching their crops die of thirst, farmers broke into the Klamath Falls Canal and released about a million gallons of water into the valley to water their farms.
	But it did not help much.
	The feds closed in to restore order and protect the water, and many farms turned into virtual dust bowls.
	The same pattern is just about to repeat itself here on the East Coast, and most residents aren't prepared at all.
	It's not even two weeks into the spring season, and Governor of Maryland has already implemented water restrictions, declared a state of emergency in seven Maryland counties.
	Some think he's jumping the gun, but The writer of this article sees a crisis developing on a par with the natural gas squeeze of the winter of 2001 and the California electricity crisis of last summer.
	And I suspect, I'm not going to read the rest of this article, but it's obvious where he's going here, and he's absolutely right.
	As our weather changes, as the climate changes, if the results are less water, And here, we're not getting much at all.
	I mean, even in the desert, you expect a little bit, and we have been having a drought for our area.
	You know, it rains a little bit in the desert.
	I mean, we used to get these wonderful monsoons that would use to, you know, they'd come up, and you'd have thunderstorms, and maybe we'll get them, but in recent years, they have been noticeably absent.
	They've been missing us, changing, and so things are becoming even more arid.
	Check this out.
	A United Nations report indicates that 40 lakes in the Himalayas are in danger of bursting their banks and causing devastating floods with little warning as far away as 100 kilometers downstream.
	This is from the United Nations now.
	The lakes form as mountain glaciers melt.
	And this process appears to be accelerating due to the effects of global warming.
	Or, let me insert here, whatever in the hell is going on, because I'm not sure.
	Unless urgent action is taken, any one of these lakes could burst its banks with potentially catastrophic results.
	According to a new scientist, to quote a new scientist, the floods used to occur about once every 500 years, but have become far more frequent since 1950.
	So in other words, here you're seeing the reality of what is changing in our climate.
	Right?
	Here you're seeing an immediate effect.
	Forty lakes in the Himalayas, because these things are melting so quickly, are in danger of bursting now.
	I think the time for debate is long over.
	If you want, you can have argument about how much of man's hand is affecting what's going on, but I think it's ballgame over.
	The climate is in the middle of a change right now.
	A fast climate change of some kind, I think, I believe.
	My personal belief is underway.
	I just don't want to spend a lot of time arguing about why.
	I don't think it matters, you know, it's just happening.
	Whether it's us or not, or just cyclical, you know, who cares?
	To me, we should be turning our attention toward A modification of the way we do business and live so that we can accommodate the changes reasonably and remain strong.
	If we stick our head in the sand about it, which is not hard to do where I am right now.
	Then we're dead.
	University of California researchers have solved a long-standing mystery for scientists trying to understand how Earth's climate can quickly shift between warm and cold modes.
	The mystery revolves around the source of a rapid change in the geochemistry of oceanic carbon that occurred just as the last ice age ended between 16,000 and 20,000 years ago based on Analysis of carbon stored in tiny fossil seashells.
	The UC geologist suggests that the chemical change occurred because of dramatic shifts in ocean circulation.
	They have developed a timeline of events that can be linked to previously described changes recorded in the ocean.
	In Antarctic ice cores and on the continents.
	Climate change experts say these changes reflect the type of events that could occur because of global warming related to human activities.
	Their argument.
	An explanation of the mystery and details of the timeline will appear in the April 19 issue of the journal Science in an article titled, The Cause of Carbon Isotope Minimum Events on Glacial Terminations.
	There's a title.
	Makes you want to grab it right up and read it, huh?
	The Cause of Carbon Isotope Minimum Events on Glacial Terminations.
	The authors are geology professors Howard Spiro of UC Davis and David Leah of UC Santa Barbara.
	That could be L-E-A.
	An understanding of the relative timing of this event is critical because the greenhouse gases that humans are producing are likely To affect not only the warming of the atmosphere, but also the circulation of the oceans, according to Spiro, changes in atmospheric temperature can have immense effect on the flow of the deep ocean currents, which in turn will affect weather and climate worldwide.
	Hmm.
	Understanding the order of events that occurred when Earth warmed quickly in the past Can help us model what might happen if the earth continues to warm in the future.
	Something that it appears to be doing very rapidly right now.
	We're gonna head straight into open lines and then anarchy.
	Not that unusual, really.
	I've been drifting on the sea of heartbreak for this show.
	Trying to get myself ashore for so long.
	for so long Listening to the strangest stories
	Wondering where it all went wrong for so long For so long
	But hold on hold on hold on to what you got So hold on hold on hold on to what you got
	So hold on hold on hold on to what you got So hold on hold on hold on to what you got
	So So
	So Out on the street I was talking to a man he said so much
	but there's nothing man that I don't understand You shouldn't worry. I said that ain't no crime. Cause if
	you get it wrong, you'll get it right next time you
	Bye!
	Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255, east of the Rockies 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
	And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
	To reach out on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
	This thing on anarchy tonight should be really interesting because...
	You know, this fellow has no computers, no electronics of any sort, I guess.
	In fact, no credit cards.
	He goes by bicycle.
	He doesn't have a car.
	And on the other hand, I'm the exact opposite.
	I'm enshrouded in technology.
	I love it.
	I love gadgets.
	I love cars.
	I love all that sort of stuff, and computers, oh my!
	I have computers everywhere, and I wouldn't know what to do without them.
	He does, you know.
	He corresponds with Kaczynski, and so it's going to be, it's potentially very interesting.
	We'll see.
	Stay right where you are.
	Open lines are coming right up.
	up anything you want to say is a fair game.
	Alright, into the night of the unknown.
	Here we go.
	First time caller on the line.
	You are on the air.
	Top of the morning.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	This is John from Canoga Park.
	How are you?
	I'm fine, John.
	What's up?
	Last night, Dr. Greer came on and started talking about the flying saucers.
	Yes.
	I thought the highlight of what he said was that he's about to manufacture one.
	That's pretty good.
	Yeah.
	Well, I immediately flashed on Joe Firmage.
	What has happened to him?
	I don't know.
	Yeah, I don't know that Joe evaporated.
	I think he was heavily invested in technology, and you know what's happened to the NASDAQ, so he probably took a beating in the market, I would bet.
	Well yeah, I thought they'd make a good pair because they kind of have a lot in common.
	They might indeed, but boy I'll tell you, what a neat project.
	Can you imagine if Greer can pull this off and actually demonstrate a hovering model UFO.
	He's got me.
	I'm there.
	Yeah, me too.
	One last thing.
	Earlier this week, Whitley was on with Sixto Paz.
	He's trying to get in touch with him, about these 24 people who dissolved.
	Yes.
	I went to the actual Spanish website.
	You guys were concerned that, hey, did they come back?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Whitley's got a translation on Unknown Country's website.
	Yeah, but I read the original Spanish.
	I think what they were trying to say in the original Spanish was that they kind of we've got for a bit came back they didn't completely
	dissolve okay well we even winging out for a bit gets my attention and i think
	that the true but i think i like the evaporated and didn't come back i don't
	you okay but they were communicating it's like to show your
	your fluent in spanish i'm pretty good uh... joblo police
	well you better not just on some bad to me on the minimum uh... alright thank you
	Take care.
	Yeah, even if that's what it is, it's still a monster story.
	You know, if they, in essence, blinked out, 24 blinking out, hey, that's big news.
	No matter how you crack it up.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Good morning, Art.
	Where are you?
	This is Chris from Minnesota, where today it was 87 degrees, and tomorrow it's supposed to be 42.
	What?
	What?
	Yeah, it's just been bizarre.
	A couple of days ago it was 91, and yesterday it was about 68, and today it was 87, and tomorrow it's supposed to be 42.
	But I wanted to talk with you about ANWR.
	I agree with you that the price of oil really has a huge impact on our economy.
	And I also agree.
	Sir, it doesn't even do service to it.
	It controls our economy.
	Absolutely.
	And I also agree with you that, depending on what happens with the supply of oil, we're in for a big war, which is why I think the Senate was irresponsible in not approving oil exploration.
	You know what, sir?
	I agree with you.
	And I agree with the President, actually.
	I think that in the short term, we're out of our minds.
	Look, we proved on the North Slope that you can bring oil down safely now.
	You can talk about the Exxon Valdez if you want, but the pipeline scenario Worked perfectly.
	Didn't hurt the environment.
	I think we could do the same thing at ANWR.
	We've got to have short-term oil or we're dead meat.
	But at the same time, if we don't start moving toward some alternative energy very quickly that's real, we're in deep cow pies.
	Absolutely, and that's what the House bill provided for.
	It provided for oil exploration in ANWR as well as Other alternative energies such as the hydrogen fuel cells and so forth.
	And I heard that the New York Times ran an interesting piece interviewing a Democratic Senator, an unnamed one, from the Northeast who was trying to get a compromise on the issue that would have raised the CAFE standards on automobiles.
	In exchange for drilling in ANWR, it was the environmentalists who wouldn't budge.
	Really?
	That's why the bill failed, unfortunately.
	Well, it's going to be an interesting time, my friend.
	Thank you.
	Take care.
	Take care.
	We should really be doing both.
	I think in the short term, because of the time required to get to a good alternative fuel source, we have no choice and we should explore ANWR.
	Have to, almost.
	But, boy, if we don't get moving, if we don't get moving, the gas frustrations of the 70s will look like child's play.
	And I mean child's play.
	I don't know how many of you are old enough to remember long, gigantic lines at gas stations.
	Remember that?
	People breaking out into fistfights.
	It was horrible what went on across the country.
	That can happen today.
	Boom!
	Just like that.
	Just like that.
	All they have to do is cut us off.
	There's already trouble, you know, in Venezuela and Iraq with regard to oil.
	And so prices are beginning to spike now, you may have noticed.
	And they're talking, rumoring $3, $3.50 gas by summer.
	That would be a horrendous blow to the economy.
	Horrendous.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hey, Art.
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	This is John in Atlanta.
	Yes, sir.
	Yeah, I remember them gas lines very well.
	I was just a kid.
	I was about 10 years old at the time, and I clearly remember thinking, am I going to have to grow up looking at this?
	I mean, lines a half a mile long waiting for gas.
	I mean, it was ridiculous.
	Don't think it couldn't happen again in an instance.
	I hope it doesn't.
	But I'm interested in what your guest has to say, you know.
	Yeah, me too.
	I'm looking at a definition of anarchism here and it says that it's a belief that all forms of government act in an unfair way against liberty of a person and should be done away with.
	Oh yeah, absolutely.
	That's what they believe.
	All governments, all laws, all everything.
	Anarchy is exactly what you just described.
	It's the end of all regulation and law.
	Wow.
	Yeah, I know.
	But a couple comments about the climate.
	If I'm not mistaken, last time you had Stan Dale on?
	Yes.
	And I know he keeps up with these things.
	And what you said earlier about this huge upsurge in magma.
	Yes.
	I mean, that's scary.
	All of this, if you're a regular listener to this program, all of this is fitting in just like a thousand piece puzzle going together.
	Boom, boom, boom, boom.
	If I'm not mistaken, he said that in the last 10 years, I believe, there's been a 600% increase in volcanic and earthquake activity.
	I mean, are we trying to, those who believe that man's hand is causing this global warming, are we trying to say that No, this is connected to an increase in volcanic activity.
	I've come to the point where I don't care anymore.
	We're not going to be able to stop what man is doing.
	There are countries all over the world, sir, that want what we have, basically.
	A couple cars in every garage.
	Now, this accepts my guests coming up in the next hour, but a couple cars in every garage, and washers and dryers, and all the wonderful conveniences of life.
	The rest of the world wants all of this, and when they get it, I don't think that the world can sustain that kind of demand, period.
	I agree with what Steven Greer in part had to say last night about technology definitely being suppressed, and we definitely need to really put pressure on any area we can to try to get this to come to the front.
	I mean, there's technology to move in that direction.
	Well, how much money would you like to lay on a table right now?
	I would be willing to bet you when the time comes, when we really begin running out of oil and or read that as oil becomes too expensive and the nation goes into crisis, at about that point, The oil companies will come forth with whatever it is that's going to be next.
	Want to bet?
	Yeah, but, you know, they do say that the biggest reserve of oil in the world is in the Gulf, and it's untapped.
	So, I mean, there can be arguments made that we might have 100 years, 200 years, where the oil's still in the ground.
	Even if that's, let's say that's true, and we've got another 100 or even 200 years, which I don't believe, but let's say we do.
	That's still in the time frame that means that we've got to begin moving towards something else because the supply is finite.
	Right?
	Yeah, the advancement of technology and growth and learning will make eventually in the next 30, 40, 50 years, I believe, oil consumption obsolete to a great degree, whether we use it up first or not.
	I mean, you know, so we're eventually, they cannot keep the advanced technology You know, for greater long periods of time from the human race.
	Well, look, if oil were to go, say, to $10 a gallon, okay?
	Long before it got to $10 a gallon, we would have my guest's wish.
	We would have anarchy.
	So, you know, it'll get worked out, and I'm sure the oil companies know what they're doing.
	And when I say that, I mean that they will have the solution at the right time.
	Well, I hope it's sooner than later.
	Well, I do too, but I don't think so.
	It'll be when the oil is not being such good business anymore.
	Anyway, take care.
	Take care.
	We'll see you later.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Yeah, this is Andrea.
	Andrea, hello.
	And I'm in a place called Montrose, California.
	Montrose.
	Where is that?
	It's just north of Glendale.
	Okay.
	And it's up in the mountains.
	That's why they call it Montreux.
	But I want to talk about Tesla.
	Tesla?
	And specifically, did you know there was a city named after Tesla in Northern California?
	Called Tesla California?
	Yeah, this is in the 1890s.
	And it no longer exists, but there's not even a landmark there to Who bet there was ever a city named Tesla?
	Maybe Tesla California just winked out.
	That could be.
	You know, it costs something like $10,000 to have a landmark put up.
	And I don't know if you've ever heard of the Clampers.
	Sounds like a joke, but they're a group of men, and no women are allowed.
	And they put up historic landmarks.
	They dress up as gold miners and drink for a couple of days.
	And they call themselves Clampers?
	Clampers.
	And their motto is E. Clampus Vitis.
	I'm not joking.
	They have a website.
	Everybody has a website.
	Well, I sent my guests coming up.
	Oh, oh, anarchists don't have a website.
	No, they don't.
	No, this is a fellow who sympathizes with Ted Kaczynski, who writes to Ted in jail.
	I mean, they believe the same things that I do.
	I was always fascinated in some sort of weird way with Kaczynski, with his manifesto.
	I don't know if you ever read it.
	It was actually pretty interesting in a lot of ways.
	Well, I'm not in favor of so many laws, but I don't know completely no law that would be... That would be anarchy.
	That would be anarchy.
	Well, it's going to be interesting to hear somebody try and make a case for that being good, huh?
	Yes.
	I'm just wondering if they have any rules.
	Anarchists?
	I don't know.
	We'll ask.
	But I'm really wondering why there's never been a real movie or a TV special about Tesla.
	So, um, you know, is he still against the... Now, that's an awfully good point.
	Why has nothing ever been done by Hollywood about Tesla?
	Boy, what a good point.
	I appreciate the call.
	Thank you.
	Isn't that a good point?
	Why hasn't there ever been a Tesla movie?
	Or has there been, and I just don't know about it?
	What an incredible potential movie that would be when you think about it, right?
	Just absolutely incredible!
	I mean, you could take the reality of Tesla, which is wild enough, and combine it with the myth of Tesla, and oh my!
	What a feature film you could produce!
	I have this feeling we constantly give away million-dollar ideas on this show.
	Which is fine.
	First time caller on the line.
	You're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Ardell?
	That would be me, yes.
	Wow.
	First time caller.
	Listened to you for many years.
	I'm calling from Flagstaff, listening to you on KFI from L.A., California.
	The Mighty 640 in L.A., yes, sir.
	Yes, it is.
	I'm sorry to bother you with this question, but you had a guest on a few months ago.
	Interviewed a person in Germany, I believe, that was getting information from UFO people, and he wrote a book about it, and he's interpreting... Oh yes, of course, Billy Meier.
	Billy Meier?
	Yes, Billy Meier is the man's name in Switzerland.
	Thank you very much.
	Look him up on the internet, you'll find a million references to Billy Meier, no problem.
	You know, and I thought, does anybody out there know, let me go to my computer-generated messages.
	Does anybody know if Billy Meyer speaks, if his English is good?
	I wonder if I could actually have Billy Meyer on the air.
	What do you think?
	Or, barring that, I wonder if I could get Billy Meyer, you know, with a translator.
	That would make one hell of an interview, wouldn't it?
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Yes, sir.
	This is Rick.
	I'm in Austin, Texas.
	In a truck, on a cell phone?
	Yes, sir.
	I am at the present time.
	Just a wild guess.
	Okay.
	I have a picture that I want to send to you that I think you might find of some interest.
	All right.
	Unfortunately, can you do it by computer?
	Possibly.
	I don't know how my girlfriend's computer is set up.
	Okay, we're still not accepting snail mail.
	We're waiting to hear if there's ever any resolution to this whole anthrax thing, or if it's just going to go away and we're never going to see it again.
	You know, I really want to open up snail mail again, but unfortunately when you get thousands of pieces of mail, you've got to pay attention to that kind of baloney.
	You know, where I have to show my ID to Melody or what have you.
	Pictures I have... I took them out of my backyard.
	There's an object in the sky.
	And it's nothing like I've ever seen before.
	What kind of object?
	It's beyond my belief.
	I mean, I don't... To me, I'm about to say UFO.
	And I do believe in UFOs.
	What did it look like, sir?
	It's like a gigantic mosquito.
	It looks like it.
	Seriously.
	It looks like a gigantic mosquito?
	Yeah, to me it looks like a big insect.
	That's what it looks like.
	Well, could it be that?
	Uh, not that big.
	That's what... Alright, alright, alright.
	How big would you say?
	How big?
	Okay, the sun's behind the clouds.
	And that's why I was there.
	I was taking a picture of the sun.
	I thought that was a pretty sight.
	I took two pictures.
	Right.
	And I took the second picture and I got it back.
	There was something that was just going through there so quickly.
	It's right there on the picture.
	Okay.
	The way to do it, sir, is to get hold of a friend of yours that has a computer and a scanner.
	Have him scan in the photograph and send it to me at artbell at mindspring.com.
	That would be my first choice.
	ArtBell at MindSpring.com.
	I also have an address on AOL.
	It's ArtBell at AOL.com.
	ArtBell at AOL.com.
	And I'm always hot to get good photographs of anything.
	And when I do, and if they're good, I put them up and share them with everybody.
	That's what it's all about.
	They go directly to the website without passing go.
	So either one of those two addresses will get the job done.
	And if you have what appears to be a giant flying... Well, I'm not sure what to call it exactly.
	Whatever it is you have flying, trust me, we'll get it on the website.
	Love to get the photograph.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Coming up next, our guest, who is an anarchist, a very serious anarchist.
	I've never really interviewed one.
	that's coming right up the
	the the
	To reach Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nigh from west of the Rockies, dial 1.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	800-618-8255, east of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222 or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1222.
	To recharge on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
	Ah yes, Beretta, not Colombo.
	I never really watched either one much, but anyway, Blake arrested.
	Okay, coming up, this should be, will be very, very interesting.
	My guest coming up is John Zerzan.
	He's an anarchist author, as he writes books, who believes that our culture is on a death march, and that technology, in all its forms, must be resisted.
	He corresponds and sympathizes with Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber.
	He believes that civilization has been a failure and that the system is fast collapsing.
	Zerzan has been blamed by some for the mayhem in Seattle of 1999.
	Of Czech origin, on both sides of his family, Zerzan grew up in Salem, Oregon, took degrees in political science at Stanford, history at San Francisco State.
	After organizing a union for social services employees, took postgraduate studies at the University of Southern California.
	In 1966, he was arrested for demonstrating against the Vietnam War.
	Nearly 20 years ago, he moved north to Eugene, Oregon, where he's since become something of an anarchist stronghold, where there have been some very fierce battles fought against gentrification and development.
	He owns no car, doesn't have a car, doesn't have a credit card, has no computers, travels by bicycle.
	He's financed his writing by selling his own blood plasma But now makes his living doing odd jobs.
	Does volunteer work with disabled people in the weight room of the local YMCA.
	Has a radio show himself on KWVA local campus station on which plays everything from classical to hip-hop.
	He has recently been in Europe, in Spain, England, and the trip has enthused him.
	He found that people there are ready for some movement that is pitched at a deeper level.
	He thinks the riots in Seattle inspired the world by providing the opening battle of a new movement.
	So, he rides a bicycle.
	Welcome, John.
	Good to have you on the program.
	Thanks a lot.
	I've got to go on to a commercial break, but I absolutely couldn't resist asking.
	You really ride a bicycle everywhere?
	You don't even have a car?
	No, Eugene, it's pretty flat.
	I need to exercise.
	Did you swim to Europe?
	Well, you know, somebody asked me that in London.
	Did you swim here?
	Nope, I flew.
	You flew in an actual airplane?
	Yeah.
	Okay, we'll get back to all of that in a moment.
	and stay right where you are.
	Well, okay, uh...
	Here is an anarchist, John Serzan.
	John, welcome back.
	Thanks.
	Now, I take it that as you winged your way to Europe, you sat there hoping technology was sound and working just spiffy, right?
	Oh, yeah.
	Did you consider what you were doing?
	I mean, going to Europe is wonderful.
	I've been there myself.
	It's a very different kind of place, but what about the use of that technology to get there?
	I guess we ought to start with just how you define what you are.
	What is an anarchist?
	Well, I guess anarchy or anarchism is a lot of things.
	I think most basically it's the effort to Identify and eliminate all of the different kinds of domination.
	Maybe on another level, anarchism is the anti-globalization movement.
	That movement now, by all accounts really, is pretty much totally an anarchist affair, to make it more concrete.
	And another way to look at it, it seems to some of us anyway, I'm not speaking for every anarchist, but I think it's In a fundamental way, it's the desire to have a world that doesn't need running.
	I think that's an anti-domination principle or urge.
	I mean, there are a lot of different radical leftist philosophies that are so many ways to run the world, but what if we had a world that didn't need running?
	And to me, that's the ultimate goal.
	A world that didn't need running.
	Where the trains don't have to run on time.
	Well, there aren't any trains for one thing.
	Oh, that's right, no trains.
	And I take it no planes?
	Well, unless you can get people to freely engage in all the drudgery and everything that an industrial civilization requires for there to be planes and the rest of it.
	I don't think you can if you have freedom.
	How would you have gone to Europe without a plane?
	Well, it would have taken a while, and that's one of the contradictions that is certainly there.
	I think we're all really part of the system.
	We're all complicit in it, and no one could claim to be pure or transcendent.
	I think we all have a place in it at this point.
	So that's just, you could call it an hypocrisy or a contradiction, but... It could be called that.
	I know I had you right there at the beginning.
	But listen, I'm curious.
	Ted Kaczynski, I thought, you know, on the one hand, was a horrible man in what he did, you know, in killing.
	And you may disagree with me on that.
	But on the other, he was, you know, his manifesto was Was very interesting.
	I read quite a bit of it, and it was very interesting.
	And I understand you not only sympathize with, but it says talk or apparently write letters back and forth with Ted.
	Yeah.
	Well, yeah, we have quite a congruence in thinking about quite a few things.
	And I agree with you.
	I think that what is the so-called manifesto, which is really the essay called Industrial Society and its Future, To me, it makes essentially one point, which I think is kind of inescapable, and it's closely argued.
	It's persuasive, I think.
	Of course, I agree with it.
	I have to admit that.
	I already agree with it.
	But the point is that the more society becomes technified, the less freedom there will be and the less personal fulfillment there will be.
	And I think he demonstrates that that's the case.
	So, the more technology we have, the less of that we'll have.
	Do you essentially live as Kaczynski did?
	Oh, no.
	Pretty low-budget deal, but I live in Eugene, which is a city of about 140,000 people.
	I don't live in the woods.
	He was closer to living his idea of the way things should be than I am.
	Eugene is kind of like...
	That's kind of like a little San Francisco, isn't it?
	Well, or like a little Berkeley.
	It's smaller than San Francisco.
	Yeah, okay.
	Like a little Berkeley, then, in a lot of ways.
	College town.
	With respect to what Kaczynski did to technological figures, you know, the bombs, all the rest of it, what's your attitude about that?
	Well, I don't endorse sending bombs to people.
	I think there is a distinction between the ideas and his actual practice.
	But I would also say that I don't think, when you examine it, that certain people are so innocent, as it was just widely claimed, as if they were sort of random victims that have no role in a very awful project.
	I think that's another point.
	It doesn't mean that I'm Endorsing, sending a bomb to them, but what is their role and what's going on?
	Who's that?
	I don't know if he has that... Good shot he does.
	I'd say he's listening.
	You wouldn't believe the correspondence I get from prisoners, so they listen to me.
	You believe that civilization has been a failure and that the system is fast collapsing.
	On some points we may agree.
	I don't know about civilization being a failure.
	Why do you believe that?
	What is it about our system that you would grade, if you were a teacher, as a failure?
	Well, where can you look to not see the failure, in my view?
	In other words, let's take the biosphere, the most obvious How many hundreds of scientists are telling us that there are just decades left to the physical environment because of the global warming?
	I mean, we know about the extinction of species, which is accelerating in the rate at which species are going extinct.
	We know about the dead zones in the oceans.
	Two weeks ago, part of the Antarctic ice shelf the size of Rhode Island Disintegrated?
	That would be Larson B, yes.
	Yeah, that's right, that's the name.
	And then in the Arctic, I just read a long thing about that, that's melting, I mean... No question.
	This is incontrovertible that that's happening.
	It is, in fact, incontrovertible, but what is controvertible is that we're not absolutely certain that it's man's hand here.
	It could be a natural, cyclical event.
	But one interesting thing, though, whether it's being aided by man's hand, Or has nothing at all to do with man's hand.
	May, in the end, aid your cause of anarchy.
	Because if we get a massive, fast climate shift, man's hand or not, there's going to be a lot of anarchy.
	Well, yeah, it depends on how you define anarchy.
	I think if people consciously decide that they need to dismantle this whole system and go in a different direction, then it'll
	be the good anarchy, so to speak.
	And if we're just passively consuming and avoiding the reality and it befalls us, then
	we won't be very equipped to make a good anarchy.
	outcome of those let's talk about what you're calling good anarchy i'm not sure
	there's a distinction but will try and find one here what what is good anarchy
	and it and in what way if you have the power
	would you go about dis assembling what we have now
	well first of all i wouldn't want that power because the fact that i would be
	an arctic people decided that
	they wanted uh...
	the kind of community which is
	a decentralized faith-to-faith human community
	the kind of thing that were feeding away from everyday we get further from it and the
	toll of that on the
	human spirit and on society is ever greater than
	uh... then the the uh... the work is cut out for it
	Then it's time to reverse this direction before it's too late.
	I mean, another way to look at it, I am rather inspired by the current outlook of the literature in anthropology and archaeology, which talks about a natural anarchy or a state of anarchy, really that obtained for a couple of million years before civilization, and now we really have a much different look At that, a different estimation than we used to in the past few decades has been quite a revision there, which is a whole topic in itself.
	In other words, before government and armies and religion and taxes and everything else, there wasn't any need for the state and people lived in a very direct way.
	In a face-to-face way, and to me that's the ultimate goal, is how do we get there.
	Why do you think are the main reasons people say government or control is even justified?
	That's right, I'm asking you to defend it from their point of view.
	Why is it justified in their point of view?
	Well, I think it isn't very much justified anymore.
	I mean, you can see... Well, that's your point of view.
	No, I'm asking you to go on the other side.
	If you had to make their case, why would you need government, or why do they think they need government and control?
	Well, one, you could make the argument, of course, given the situation we have now, There's a need for police for the protection of people, especially women, because there's so much violence out there.
	There's so much violence against women, for example.
	That's a good point.
	It's implausible to say that if we, and of course if we assume that things would only be worse without the state, without the cops and the army and everything, then, you know, if we believe the ideology that we're always fed, that if it weren't for those Well, what makes you think they wouldn't, John?
	Kill each other, rape each other, plunder, you know, the whole thing?
	Wait a minute, no.
	and of course you would believe you have to have all these uh...
	or to the repression what what makes you think they wouldn't just
	tillage or a little each other rape each other plunder you know the whole thing
	they didn't do that for a couple of million years that's that's one starting
	uh... one hundred women and no uh... even if you go back like two thousand and one
	uh... when the when the apes got the spark of intelligence with the creator whatever did it and uh... the first thing
	they did was pick up a club and go get somebody in the other tribe
	Oh, in the movie?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Well, I think that they're, according to the literature, people have the same intelligence, speaking of intelligence, that we do about a million years ago, or probably a lot further back than that, because, for example, People were cooking with fire.
	They were cooking fibrous vegetables almost two million years ago.
	The data goes back to 1.9 million.
	And people were sailing or somehow navigating way outside of the sight of land 800,000 years ago.
	So, you know, if you want to look at the actual record, Homo or whatever we call humans back then had a lot of intelligence.
	They didn't They didn't put it to building bombs and other things like that, or monuments and so forth, for a long time.
	Really, only until about 10,000 years ago, which is just... But the history of the human race is one of conflict and war, like it or not.
	The history of civilization?
	Yeah.
	That's only 9,000 years.
	If you go before that, you see a very different picture.
	Very different picture.
	Where is that different picture?
	I mean, as I pointed out, the cave people were battling each other.
	It was survival of the fittest.
	How's that?
	No, no.
	Really, I think the literature has undermined that for us.
	And it was a great revelation to me.
	But, you know, really, this is the kind of standard stuff now in the textbooks.
	In other words, I'm not making it up to make a point.
	Well, how is the world different than I was taught, and I still believe?
	Well, let's go down the line.
	First of all, there is no evidence of organized violence before civilization, really.
	I'm not saying there was no interpersonal violence.
	There probably was some.
	These are generalizations, but there's a lot of stuff behind these generalizations.
	People had to work all the time, and it was very precarious.
	They had to scrabble all the time for existence.
	Actually, according to the record in the field, there was a huge amount of leisure time.
	I could start citing a bunch of books, but I don't know if you want me to do that.
	There really wasn't much work.
	That's kind of the reversal of the picture we used to have.
	Another stereotype is the cartoonish version of the caveman pulling the woman by the hair into the cave.
	Yes.
	Well, there's a lot of evidence to show that there was a lot more autonomy, that women had a lot more autonomy and equality than they did after civilization.
	There was much more gender equity there.
	And so, you know, things like that are really an amazing... They've informed my thinking a lot.
	When I discovered this big revision back in the 80s, is when I discovered it, it really affected my thinking a lot.
	Because it gives you the idea that, you know, even though we're constantly told that, again, we would tear each other apart without the state and without the cops and all this other stuff like that, because people always did, well, they didn't.
	So then, what do you make of that?
	Well, where's the proof?
	Well, again, this could get kind of tedious to start citing a whole long list of books, but you could start.
	I'm not saying that every detail is exactly idyllic or something like that, but there's been a real sea change in this... Because your real charge here is that civilization itself is what has ruined everything, right?
	Okay, alright, listen, hold it right there.
	This probably should be your theme song.
	In fact, I'm sure it would be your theme song.
	I'm Art Bell.
	We'll be right back.
	I hate the world today.
	You're so good to me, I know, but I can't change.
	Tried to tell you, but you look at me like maybe I'm an angel underneath.
	Innocent and sweet.
	Yesterday I cried.
	Must have been relieved to see the softest side.
	I can understand how you'd be so confused.
	I don't envy you.
	I'm a little bit of everything.
	I'll roll into what?
	I'm a bitch, I'm a lover, I'm a child, I'm a...
	When the sun comes up on the city little town Down around Santa Con
	And the folks are riding for another day Round about their homes
	The people of the town are saying And the town of weary games
	Well you're talking about China Grove Whoa, whoa, whoa
	Whoa, whoa, whoa China Grove
	you you
	Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255, east of the Rockies 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
	And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
	To reach out on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
	My guest is John Zurzan.
	He's an anarchist.
	He's a friend of Ted Kaczynski's.
	Corresponds with him.
	He's a serious anarchist.
	So that's the discussion we're going to have tonight.
	I realize that John and I are exact opposites in almost every way.
	In fact, we'll sort of outline that here in a moment.
	Maybe that'll help point out the differences and get the discussion going.
	I love interviewing people who have a completely different point of view.
	That would be John Zerzan.
	We'll be right back.
	Once again, John Serzan, and we should set something up, I think, properly up front here.
	John, do you think that most technology is inherently evil?
	Well, it's partly how you define technology.
	And to me, the problem begins with division of labor or specialization, if you want to go all the way back.
	Would you?
	Well, let's make it easy.
	Do you own a computer?
	No, I don't.
	You don't own a computer.
	You're not on the Internet?
	No.
	You don't drive a car?
	Nope.
	But I mean, I use those things, or I could make use of them.
	I'm not saying I don't go in a car out of principle or something.
	I just don't have one, no.
	And you don't think generally people should have them, right?
	I mean, that would be your philosophy.
	You don't think people ought to have computers?
	You don't think that would be on the internet and moving in that direction?
	Isn't that a fair assessment?
	Yeah.
	That's one way to put it.
	I'm not trying to deprive people of things, but to imagine a healthier place where people wouldn't be dependent on those things or trying to derive satisfaction from those things, which are destructive.
	I have one, two, three, four, five, seven computers here in the house.
	I have five vehicles, including my RV.
	So I'm just, I'm shrouded in technology, John.
	We all are.
	When the internet goes down, I panic.
	That's how far removed from the natural world and each other we've become.
	But we may have different views of the value of these things.
	I'm too minded about it.
	I've got gas guzzling this and that, but I drive around a little three-cylinder Geo Metro 99% of the time.
	However, I still love occasionally to get out in a car that drinks gas like a drunk on Saturday night and goes real fast on.
	I like getting on the internet.
	I like having information at my fingertips.
	I'm in that business.
	I do a radio show that might be added.
	So do you.
	You do a radio show, right?
	Right.
	Well, that means that you have to utilize a hell of a lot of technology to get your voice into the air.
	That's right.
	Just like tonight.
	That's right.
	Yeah, in fact, tonight, here you are on 500 plus a bunch radio stations, and, oh, I'm telling you, John, our signal is bouncing off satellite after satellite after satellite.
	It's going through a processing that you wouldn't believe, equipment, high-tech equipment, to bring this message forth to all who listen.
	Yeah, and there are a lot of anarchists who think that's a very bad choice that I've made to do that.
	They do?
	And I can't say that I know they're wrong, and maybe it is.
	I feel like... Would Ted Kaczynski have come on my program?
	Oh, I don't think so.
	Probably not, huh?
	I doubt that.
	If he is listening to you tonight, is he disappointed?
	Well, I'm not sure.
	He might be.
	You mean in terms of doing a radio show like this?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	I don't know.
	It hasn't really come up.
	if you get another letter from a mentioned to me on a national radio show
	and see how it takes okay uh...
	i uh...
	i i i wonder what kind of world it would be and and and especially since
	he even if we accept your are argument academically that at one time
	uh... things were chaotic but uh...
	a very nice with lots of leisure time everybody was laying around and it was
	love peace and Um...
	Even if we accept that argument, You must admit that now we do have civilization.
	Like it or not, in your case not, we've got it.
	And to attempt to go to anarchy now would result in the things that you were talking about, you know, raping, plundering, killing, all of the rest of that.
	I mean, that certainly would be a product of an immediate switch or even a fairly slow switch to a state of anarchy, wouldn't it?
	Well, I don't, I think that that involves a whole lot of assumptions there.
	there i think the the question of the material deprivation of people in the
	city of somebody just pulled the plug overnight of course i mean
	i don't think any of us are are imagining that or or that is uh...
	embracing that uh... kind of picture but uh... there are
	i think there are ways to begin thinking about other uh...
	other alternative another direction that uh... like what well for example uh...
	we are we have to think that we are
	dependent on this perfected world system for food for example
	When you think about it, it's really quite irrational in terms of feeding people, because the main idea of it isn't feeding people.
	The main idea is making a profit, so we have ended up with a system where For example, a whole state grows one strain of corn, or something like that, and then it's shipped all over the world, and there's so much energy and time and so forth involved in storage and all of these other mechanisms that require so much, whereas the rather common sense notion of, what might be growing right next to you to eat?
	That's not even... that would just be thought of as just wacky, whereas... It might be a fair amount.
	It's not very wacky when you think about it.
	There might be a fair amount growing next to you.
	But if you're in Chicago or New York or L.A.
	San Francisco... Sure, that's right.
	At the moment, that is only a privileged kind of a thing.
	The only thing growing next to you is a new high-rise, so... Well, then you pull down the high-rise and you pull up the freeway and pretty soon you've got stuff growing there.
	I mean, just think of all the earth that's taken up with roads and freeways and sidewalks and everything else.
	Things could be going there.
	I have a friend, a late friend actually, he's with us no more, but we were arguing with some people about this some years ago and they said, look, if this was suddenly a liberated world, what is the first actual thing you would do?
	Not idea-wise.
	And we were sitting on this stoop, actually, in San Francisco, and he looked down at the street and he said, well, maybe I just go down there and start trying to pry up the street and let it breathe and start changing things.
	And they hadn't, they think, maybe they thought he was a little crazy, but... Pry up the asphalt?
	Yes, it's not easy work.
	I've done a little bit of it.
	It's hard work.
	Oh, absolutely, yes.
	Nature takes over pretty fast, though.
	If you stop fighting it, you know, then you've got a different picture.
	You know, yeah, it's not an overnight thing.
	It's not an instant snap your fingers and everything will be perfect.
	In other words, to get to an idyllic world of mainly laziness or idle time, depending on what phrase you want to use, you'd have to do a hell of a lot of work.
	Well, in the cities, yeah, maybe cities would just be abandoned.
	Maybe that would be easier at first.
	I mean, I don't know.
	I'm not in the business of blueprints, but I don't know.
	I mean, people There's already a movement away from the city.
	Not everybody's leaving tomorrow, but, you know, I mean, I'm not sure which, you know, it depends on a lot of different things and how fast we could do it.
	It's obviously dependent on whether people decide that that would be a good thing to try before we're done for here.
	The World Trade thing up in Seattle, you had a lot of involvement in that?
	Well, I went up there.
	There's all sorts of media image inflation about certain people.
	If they talk to somebody, they have to create this whole thing in order to justify talking to them.
	I think sometimes it's about as simple as that.
	So you think they blamed you unfairly for what happened up there?
	Well, yeah.
	They had this whole scenario, and it was all Eugene, and it was somehow I was behind some of it.
	You know, that's really not the way things really happen.
	Okay, well let's talk a little bit about what's going on.
	Aren't you fighting a natural course of evolution?
	In other words, we began probably as isolated tribes early in human civilization, and if you look at how it occurred, we went from tribes to little organizations to little towns.
	for little cities and pretty soon cities and towns were trading with each other
	products exchanging products and services and then pretty soon regions began exchanging products states
	you know one state to another
	uh... when we have states and then regions began to do trading
	and then countries began to do trading back and forth
	and uh...
	and and soon as you point out it's headed toward a global economy i mean isn't this
	unnatural evolution
	of the of our past it It's progressed that way, but I don't think it's natural in the sense that it's the course of nature.
	It has happened that way, and it has enveloped us.
	But a lot of things developed, and then we decided they weren't such a good idea.
	Take slavery in this country.
	That was developing In the way it developed, and hardly anyone thought that there was anything much amiss until there were various revolts, there were the abolitionists, but for decades and decades, people thought they were crazy to resist the institution of slavery.
	I'm sure they said it's a natural institution.
	Slavery's been around forever.
	What's wrong with slavery?
	But we don't think that way now.
	No, we don't.
	Which means that we have progressed, right?
	Well, we've progressed.
	Too weak, slavery, uh...
	That involves another question.
	In other words, it's not fundamental enough for change.
	Yeah, be fair.
	I mean, that is a progression.
	We had slavery.
	And you just said how awful it was, and you're absolutely right.
	We realized it was awful, and we ended slavery.
	That's right.
	Now, maybe of a much lesser degree, I'm sure you're going to start screeching, there's slavery, wage slavery, and so forth.
	But we did end slavery.
	That's right.
	Sure, I wouldn't be a little bad.
	Definitely not.
	Good, so that was a good thing.
	Yeah, better not to have slavery.
	I won't argue with that.
	Alright.
	We have this thing called the Internet now, which you're going to need a computer to get on, and the Internet is an incredible, absolutely astounding source of information at your fingertips.
	I mean, I don't think anybody can argue that.
	I can argue that.
	Okay, to me, all of this computerization, the whole high-tech thing, makes three points, well, at least three points, but I think there are three main things that it says.
	It connects us, it empowers us, and it gives us all this diversity that you were just referring to.
	Right.
	Well, how come people have never been so isolated?
	How come people have never been so disempowered?
	And how come, as Frederick Jameson said, this is one of my favorite quotes, We live in a society that has never been so standardized in the history of the world.
	What is wrong with this picture?
	Actually, there was a man who did a really interesting survey that would bolster what you're saying, and he's suggesting that The world once had great diversity and that the internet is murdering that diversity.
	That there are ten great ideas or a hundred great ideas in the world and they're known to all.
	And these great ideas circulating at the speed of light, literally, are killing innovation and diversity.
	That sounds like, I'm not sure I get all that, but it sounds rather similar to Well, there's a great blizzard of information and data, but how much thinking is there?
	How much understanding is there?
	Well, that depends on the individual, doesn't it?
	In other words, the Internet and computers are only tools.
	How they are used is up to you.
	Well, you know, I'm glad you mentioned that, Art, because I think that's another fundamental disagreement here.
	I think that's absolutely wrong.
	That's a myth that we're all supposed to follow.
	The neutrality of technology is just a tool.
	It totally depends on how it's used.
	It really isn't, I believe, because the technology really embodies the basic values of the social system itself.
	In other words, the technology, including the computers, there's a political component.
	Oh, there is.
	You're right, John.
	There is.
	But, you know, I've never seen... And it's not the way it's used.
	It's the very nature of the technology.
	But, John, the Internet is so anarchistic.
	I would think you'd love it, from that point of view.
	It's total anarchy out there.
	Well, and it's actually free at this particular moment, until everybody's wired into it.
	And, yeah, you can get online and do all these things, and they're not going to I mean, there will have to be some positive features to get everybody into it.
	Then you might find it's too late to raise deeper questions, or it makes it harder once you get everybody lured in.
	But that's not the reason it was invented, so that we could email our friends or whatever, our distant relatives.
	Do you know why it was invented?
	Well, I think there's a couple of reasons.
	It wasn't a DoD thing originally.
	Basically, the concept was that you'd have a kind of a spider web of communication so that scientists and government people, should there be a war, like a nuclear war, something like that, could communicate under any circumstances.
	If you took out Silicon Valley or you took out Houston or New York, it wouldn't matter.
	The Internet would continue to function because of the gazillion neuron-like connections that it has.
	Yeah, I thought so, yeah.
	I think another thing is that when it became known what could be done with this, it really, bottom line, is about the movement of capital and the ever faster movement of transactions in the global marketplace.
	That's true.
	And, you know, again, you can attract people even though that's not what it's all about, because people can, you know, email people for free and all that.
	It's nice, but that's, I mean, that's kind of just the trimming on top.
	The British Prime Minister did say one time that what's happening with electronics and computers and satellites is one day going to all collapse, that billions of dollars, while you sleep, Yeah, it's a very vulnerable apparatus.
	That's why there was so much fear about the Y2K thing at the end of 99.
	across the face of the globe it never rests it's going on all the time in one
	of these days there's going to be some snafu
	big snafu yet the very vulnerable uh...
	apparatus that's what it was so much fear about the white you can't bring at
	the end of ninety nine that that type of thing here word up to you uh... you would abolish abolish computers
	and the internet Bye.
	Well, I think it's more like people will step away from that for various reasons.
	I mean, this connectedness, for example.
	Yes.
	You know, it's a cliché, but we don't know who lives next to us anymore because we're all just crowded in.
	And we're told that this is this great connection, but we're, you know, becoming less and less connected, of course.
	But one option of anarchy would be not wanting to know who lives next to you.
	Wanting privacy.
	Wanting... Oh, not the way I see it.
	Why not?
	I think we're social animals, and... Oh, not all of us?
	Well, we're not, for various reasons.
	I mean, for example, you know, I was rereading the Bowling Alone book, and, you know, there's all these figures... Bowling Alone?
	Yeah, I remember that came out a few years ago, a big thing about how many people are becoming more withdrawn from civic and political and social stuff, how the rise of one-person households has just boomed in the last decade.
	We're just kind of, for various reasons, just shrinking into these little zones.
	You know, that's the direction things are going.
	Okay, but doesn't that have to be part of real freedom and real anarchy?
	The ability to, if you wish, not be social?
	Oh, sure.
	Sure, that should be a choice, but in a healthy, it seems to me, in a healthy kind of social world, you wouldn't have that kind of, you wouldn't have all that much of it.
	I'm not saying it should be ruled out, otherwise you'd have a totalitarian system where everybody
	would be forced to be sociable.
	That's not what I mean.
	But I mean, I think there are these forces that are pushing in that direction and it's
	not an individual choice.
	Just like technology isn't an individual choice.
	I remember 10 or 20 years ago when the ads used to say, well, it's up to you, it's your
	free choice.
	I mean, now in the schools, everywhere else, you don't have a choice.
	It's all, you're wired into it or else you're out at the curb somewhere, you know.
	Well, there's certainly some truth in that.
	Hold on.
	Any child raised now...
	An educated in America who is not computer literate has a very small chance of success in life, in work, in life generally.
	That's an absolute truth, can't argue with that.
	You can argue with it, but it's just a fact of life.
	And I guess John is arguing with it.
	We'll continue with John Zerzan.
	He's an anarchist, and we'll learn more about all of this as the night goes on.
	I'm sure.
	I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
	so much technology to get this show to you.
	So, let's get started.
	So, I'm going to play a little bit of the song.
	I'm going to play a little bit of the song.
	So, I'm going to play a little bit of the song.
	I gave you love, I thought that we had made it to the top.
	I gave you all I had to give, but I didn't have to stop.
	You've blown it all sky high By telling me a lie
	Without a reason why You've blown it all sky high
	To reach our guild in the kingdom of Nigh From west of the Rockies, Isle 1
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	1-800-825-5033. First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222 or use the wildcard
	line at 1-775-727-1295. To reach out on the toll free international line, call your AT&T
	operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
	My guest is John Zerzan.
	He's an anarchist, and I have a feeling that's what he'd like to do with technology.
	Mostly blow it all sky high.
	I don't know.
	We're going to kind of find out more about this man.
	I've never really had an opportunity to talk to a real anarchist for any period of time, save a few callers who claim to be so.
	So we'll sort of get into more of this as time goes on.
	It's all very interesting.
	Stay right where you are.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	Alright, once again, here is John Zerzan.
	John, welcome back.
	If you had your way, would you basically blow up all technology?
	Oh, I don't know.
	Blowing it up is pretty dramatic, but it might be abandoned by people who see its real result in so many, many ways.
	For example, I'm sure that product you were just touting works just fine, but, you know, like all that stuff, it looks real clean on the shelf, but when you think about What happens to the earth to get it?
	All the toxicity, all the drudgery, all the smelting, the plastics, the furnaces, the mines.
	Absolutely.
	Would you go down in the mine in order to have one of these devices or pieces of technology?
	I wouldn't.
	Somebody's got to or else you don't have it.
	That's what happens to the technology.
	That technology is what's enabling a lot of people right now to listen to your message.
	Well, right, but that's a temporary measure until everyone gets rid of it all.
	But if you are to promulgate what you believe, you've got to be able to communicate it.
	That's right.
	That's why I'm here talking with you.
	That's right.
	So you've got to use the very technology that you have so much disdain for to get the message out.
	Well, it's kind of hard to get around that.
	Whether you're just publishing a flyer or a pamphlet or whatever, that involves technology as well.
	As a matter of fact, you've got several books.
	Let me see.
	Running on Emptiness, the pathology of civilization.
	Future, Primitive, and Other Essays, Against Civilization, Readings and Reflections, Elements of Refusal, Questioning Technology, a Critical Anthology, and Questioning Technology, Tool, Toy, or Tyrant.
	That's one, two, three, four, five.
	My God, man, you've written six books!
	Well, actually, the last two, that's just two titles for the same book, which is actually out of print.
	The Questioning Technology is out of print, but the other ones are around.
	Well, that's five, anyway.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	Five books.
	And you've got to get out there, and were you self-published?
	No, no.
	These are small outfits, but I'm glad you brought it up, because I was supposed to say something about running on emptiness and hadn't done it yet, so... In other words, plug your book.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, okay.
	John, you're all right, John.
	Some other stuff, too.
	No, go ahead.
	I mean, Running on Emptiness, The Pathology of Civilization.
	Let's talk about it first.
	I mean, what's the book about?
	Which one?
	Your new one.
	Oh, Running on Emptiness?
	Yes.
	Well, it's another collection, actually.
	None of these, virtually none of them were written as books, but they're more collected essays kind of things, which, like Future Primitive is the other one, much like that.
	pieces that were written over like seven, eight year period are collected in the book.
	So they cover a number of things, not just technology.
	How did you write them?
	Did you scribble them while a candle burned in the background in a little hut somewhere in Idaho?
	In a cave, right, with just a piece of carbon and a rock.
	Well, no.
	I don't have a word processor, but I have running water and a number of things like that, actually.
	Running water?
	Yeah.
	Hot water, too.
	Hot water?
	Pretty great.
	Even electricity?
	Yep.
	And, God, a telephone?
	Yep.
	I didn't have a telephone for a while, but I ended up getting one.
	Why, John?
	Well, actually, because my daughter moved here, and she didn't Well, I forgot to get a telephone.
	I can't even call you up, so I immediately did, because I wanted to be in touch with her, but I was doing okay with that one.
	But isn't that a big advantage of technology?
	I mean, even at the personal level?
	Well, it is.
	It is, in fact, yeah.
	Because we're scattered around, and we're dispersed, and that's the configuration of civilization at this point.
	So you are, to some degree, in conflict with yourself on some things, eh?
	Well, no.
	It's just that I see... I don't have...
	I mean, I think I don't have illusions about these things.
	They're here, and yeah, I'm not going to go punish myself because I'm living on this planet at this point in time.
	I don't live somewhere else.
	We're all part of it.
	Well, but the question is, what does it mean and where is it going?
	I mean, the direction, I think, is just unmistakable.
	It's just getting so pathological on every level.
	Do you realize how much the telephone company stands for that you abhor?
	How much it stands for?
	Yeah, the telephone company.
	I mean, if you take, of course, they're all broken up now, but as a whole, if you take telephone companies, they rule.
	Gigantic, right, right.
	Yeah, definitely.
	And without a telephone?
	I mean, how would you, you know?
	I'm feeding it too, yeah.
	I pay my bill, my phone bill, and yeah.
	If you don't, they turn it off.
	Right, or they turn it off.
	Exactly.
	So, you know, I just, I'm seeing some cracks in the armor here.
	You can't exactly manage to live the life that you really, ultimately want.
	So you're making some concessions.
	Oh sure, definitely.
	I have comforts.
	I'm living outside somewhere because there's no banned society to apply to for membership.
	If you go way out in the woods somewhere, the acid rain is going to fall on you there, too.
	I think we have a responsibility to try to wrestle with these problems and contribute to changing things.
	So, in your mind, what would progress from where we are right now, where we are technologically and socially and so forth, how would we make progress toward the goal?
	I realize you couldn't have an instant anarchy, or shouldn't have.
	So, if you wanted to begin making progress toward where you think the world should go, what would you do?
	Well, the anti-globalization is probably the most obvious place where If there is a new movement to contend with all this, it is taking that form at this time.
	You mentioned Seattle back at the end of 1999.
	These mass demonstrations have gotten bigger and more militant around the world.
	They can't even hold these World Trade Organization or World Bank Summit meetings without the wrath of thousands of people in the streets, although September 11 has caused a certain Set back in this country, definitely, because of, well, for obvious reasons.
	That has put a chill on things, temporarily.
	I think that's very temporary.
	So, in terms of that militancy, I think it's informed by more and more understanding, or more and more questioning, of what is civilization, what is technology, what is the trajectory of modern society, and how deep would we have to go To get to a healthier place.
	And so I think, again, I'm not by any stretch saying I speak for all anarchists.
	That wouldn't be an anarchist thing to do, and there are definitely some anarchists who believe that we can speak for all the technology, like you do.
	There are anarchists who think it's just, like you said, it all depends on how you use it.
	But it's you I'm talking to, and you obviously feel that a movement away from all this would be appropriate, so how would you reasonably do that?
	Have you thought about it?
	Well, I think it's going in a good direction so far.
	In other words, real resistance in the streets, for one thing.
	And so I advocate property damage.
	Instead of just symbolic, polite, hold up your sign, do what the cops tell you, it's going to take more than that to undo this whole ghastly cancer of technology and capital that's destroying the whole planet.
	You advocate property damage?
	But not that's different from violence to people.
	Personal violence, right, or other forms of life.
	It's very different.
	Yeah, but a lot of times, what's intended to be property damage, you know, when people go out and blow up abortion clinics or whatever their cause is, they end up killing people.
	You would consider those to be, what, innocent victims, collateral damage?
	That's going to be a problem if and when it happens, but if you're, I mean, I have nothing to do with blowing up abortion clinics.
	I understand, John, but I'm just saying that Property damage is property damage, and sometimes a tenant with property damage is human damage.
	It's possible.
	It's possible.
	I think it's been avoided so far.
	For example, the Earth Liberation Front, they've burned down a lot of buildings and so on, but no one has been injured, much less killed, in all of these various arsons and so on.
	It's not just an academic question.
	It's a real question of what If people get hurt, I mean, if a cop attacks you and you defend yourself and a cop gets hurt, well, what about that?
	that i mean that the other questions that uh... come up uh...
	and your your your right there In other words, since you advocate this, you are going to perhaps even have to deal with such a question, aren't you?
	Well, I'm not just an academic, or I would have been a full professor many years ago.
	I mean, I feel like I am a part of this movement.
	You know, Farrelly said you could have been a professor, obviously.
	You've chosen a different path.
	Yeah, I'm very glad.
	I've never regretted that I haven't gone that way.
	What kind of property damage is justified in your mind?
	Well, you know, let's take Seattle.
	I know more about that than, say, Genoa, but the progression goes to the place of, the biggest one was last July in Genoa, 300,000 people in the streets and $50 million worth of damage done to banks and other corporations like that.
	that and they can't be able to work
	the wild thing at seven seven five seven two seven one two nine five stuff
	whatever country we're talking about but uh...
	i mean i think there's a i think there's an awareness of which outfits
	their greater responsibility for the ongoing destruction So, in other words, it's justified to target outfits that particularly egregiously affect the environment, for example?
	Would that be fair?
	Well, that's part of it.
	And I think there's also another dimension, by the way.
	There's a fantastic video about Seattle called Breaking the Spell.
	A local videographer here, Tim Lewis, made this, and he's marvelous.
	But anyway, the title of that, it refers to breaking windows, but the real meaning, and it comes out in the video, in the film, is that you break the spell of conditioning.
	We're all caged animals.
	We're all suppressed and repressed, and there's a realization that you can move against depression.
	You can do something about domination.
	And there were people up there who said, for example, I thought we'd never see white people really fighting.
	And, you know, that went on for almost a week up there.
	And it wasn't just, I mean, it spread.
	And that's the kind of thing that's going to have to happen.
	Well, all right.
	When you destroy, let's say, a corporate building that you think is egregiously affecting the environment in some way, do you think that The publicity from that, and the thinking of the people that read that publicity, aids your cause or harms it?
	Well, probably both.
	To me, the uppermost thing is the real inspirational thing, and in Europe I found that.
	I mean, they couldn't get enough of Seattle, and I was thinking, well, it's already kind of ancient history.
	But I think it's a turn-on for people who are tired of just going along Under the heel of this whole system.
	What did you think was so trick about Europe?
	What was so cool about Europe?
	What did you like?
	You know, I think the most basic thing that I got was that people know that something different is needed.
	That the old answers, including the old radical movements, the left-wing stuff, doesn't do it.
	That's discredited.
	That's a dead end.
	Where did you go in Europe?
	Well, namely Spain, but also London.
	I'm going to Greece and Italy next month, actually.
	Are you really?
	I'll tell you a common theme that you'll find in most places, perhaps not in parts of Greece, but generally in Europe, oh, the cities are clean.
	You don't find the graffiti all over their transportation systems, such as they are.
	They have a great deal of mass transport compared to us.
	They're very interesting, clean environments.
	Did you notice?
	Well, yeah, there are certainly some urban differences.
	Big time.
	Yeah, and it varies by neighborhoods, too.
	It does, but I mean generally they're much cleaner and prettier and you know.
	Oh sure, there's a great deal of charm.
	Not such standardized, faceless architecture as this country.
	That's right.
	All the cities are pretty ugly in this country.
	I might agree with that.
	Dirtier anyway, although we're making some strides.
	You know, most particularly in New York.
	New York City has really made some big strides.
	But generally in Europe, I mean, that's right.
	But you know how they get that?
	Well, I know how they got it in New York by a rather fascist crackdown, including shooting people.
	I mean, that's one way to clean up the city.
	Yeah, they cleaned it up.
	Mussolini did that, too, if you want to go too much in that direction.
	No, no, no, no, no, no.
	Let's stick with Europe and the differences there for a second.
	It's mainly socialist, and the tax rates there are Unblinking believable.
	I mean, they're just unbelievable.
	They're unbearable.
	Yeah, the streets are clean, and the buildings are clean, but the people are subjected to the kind of tyranny that would make America look like truly the land of the free.
	I mean, the tax rates there are unbelievable.
	That's tyranny, right?
	Well, I'm not a socialist.
	I don't think more government is the answer.
	That's certainly not an anarchist... Yeah, but you loved Europe, and they've got more government, believe me, than we do.
	Well, I...
	I loved a lot of things about it, but I mainly loved the struggle against the whole system, no matter where you are.
	But they are the system.
	If you were in London, for example, I mean, the British, oh my God!
	They're structured, they don't have near the freedoms that we do in so many different ways.
	They are far more restricted than we are, and their taxes are much higher.
	If you were living there and working there, you would be an angrier young man than you are at what we have.
	Well, I guess it's what you're used to, and that's part of it as well.
	I don't know if I would or wouldn't be.
	I think you can see the elements of opposition in various places, certainly, and not just in Europe, but I think there's a rising tide of resistance the way things are going.
	There certainly is globalization.
	There's plenty of resistance in Europe, as there was in Seattle.
	And, of course, in the third world, where Indigenous cultures have tried to stave off the empire for hundreds of years, not just something like the first world protest movement.
	It's not true, for example, that not everybody wants to become a consumer on the model of North America or something.
	There are people who realize What a bad bargain it is to give away your authentic culture for what?
	Well, John, there are... The Walmart in your neighborhood or something?
	John, you're right about that.
	There are some, but they are the distinct minority.
	Hold on, we're at the bottom of the hour.
	We'll be right back.
	I'm out.
	you And my lack of education hasn't hurt me none.
	I can read the writing on the wall.
	Hold up home.
	Give us the nice bright colors Give us the greens
	If I could turn the page In time then I'd be your page
	Today I lost my, I lost my, I lost my eyes
	But I couldn't find a way So I said the whole world gave in to me
	Tell me, tell me lies Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies
	Tell me lies, tell me lies Oh no, no, you can't disguise
	You can't disguise Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies
	Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nigh from west of the Rockies at 1-800-9-4.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
	And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
	To reach out on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
	It certainly is.
	John Zurzan is my guest.
	He's an anarchist.
	And he's very interesting, the things he believes.
	There are a few contradictions, of course, in what he says and what he does with regard to what he believes, but those are concessions, I guess, you might have to make to a modern world.
	I'm not sure.
	I guess that's the way he would regard it.
	We'll ask that, actually.
	stay right where you are once again john uh... susan uh...
	John, here's an interesting topic for us.
	Do you believe in the collective defense?
	In other words, having a military?
	You demonstrated against Vietnam.
	I was in Vietnam.
	So, we're going to probably separate on this issue as well, but I'm interested in what you think we need in America.
	Do we need an army and a navy and an air force and the U.S.
	Marines and Coast Guard and, you know, all these forces we have to protect America?
	What about them?
	Well, they presuppose the existence of the nation-state, first of all, which I'd rather see go away.
	So, no.
	That's the national interest.
	I mean, when you break that down into what it's really about, you get to demystify some of the rhetoric.
	But I don't see a role for military.
	I understand.
	OK, so then Hitler should not have been stopped.
	Well, Hitler, the Hitlers that I mean, Hitler hasn't been stopped.
	There's Hitlers all over the place.
	We have wars all over the globe.
	But Hitler... The way you stop that kind of thing is by having a social existence that doesn't generate all of those things, a never-ending... all of it.
	I mean, nationalism and... But Hitler wasn't our product.
	We didn't create him.
	No, it's a specifically German product, but I mean, the wars rage all over the world, and civilization somehow... Where is it succeeding?
	I mean, what is it doing?
	Brass tax here, John.
	If you had been alive... I don't know, how old are you?
	58.
	Oh, you're 58.
	Older than I am.
	Wow, yeah.
	I'm older than a lot of people.
	Wow, okay.
	So, you really weren't exactly alive, except for the very end of World War II.
	The very end of it, same for me.
	Now, if you had been, though, and Hitler was marching across Europe and the Jews were being incinerated, from your political perspective, what would you have done?
	Well, that was probably the only popular war in U.S.
	history.
	So, I mean, really, the other ones, there really aren't any other ones that were popular.
	So, there was a basis.
	In other words, you mentioned the Holocaust.
	Of course, the war didn't do anything about that.
	If that would have been a worthier aim, I could see that right off.
	If it could have been stopped by U.S.
	military force, too bad that it wasn't.
	But according to you, there wouldn't be a U.S.
	military force.
	Well, no, but taking back to that specific situation, I just feel it's tragic that that's not what it was about.
	But I have relatives that were in the military during the war, and what, 10 million were, I guess, something like that.
	No, no, no.
	I understand that.
	I'm just saying it was a necessity to stop Hitler and what Hitler was doing.
	Yeah, one way or another.
	Definitely.
	Yeah, and that definitely required an armed force.
	There's just more and more of this.
	It never goes away.
	It's just a renewal of this all the time.
	It's just a cycle.
	You can have so many rivers of blood or oceans of blood need to be spilled before Before we figure out the logic that keeps creating this.
	What logic, though, John?
	Hitler just wasn't responding to love.
	Certainly not.
	I'm not saying that love in some abstract way is enough to stop this system.
	Well, then how would you have stopped it?
	How would I have stopped it in the 40s in the U.S.?
	Yes.
	I don't know.
	I might have I don't know.
	I'm not a conscientious objector.
	I'm not a pacifist.
	So I mean, I would have perhaps ended up in the military.
	I see.
	I don't know.
	That's interesting.
	But other than that, you know, I'll move on from that.
	Other than that, for example, today, you don't see the need for a military.
	Yes.
	Well, it's I mean, let's put it this way.
	If you could say you could pose it this way.
	What if there was some kind of revolution that I'm talking about, other people are talking about, then other countries might just take advantage of that.
	You could put it that way, perhaps.
	And then what would happen if we undid all this stuff, including all the high-tech weaponry and everything else, and we'd be prey to the other people that haven't done it yet?
	Yes, isn't that logical?
	That is.
	That's why it has to be That's why it has to catch on pretty much everywhere, I think.
	You can't have it in your backyard.
	It seems like that is the way that would work.
	And the police that we have now, that respond to social disorder, or in some cases what I'm sure you consider to be social order.
	Without them, we would have rape, we would have robbery, we would have plundering and all the worst kinds of things.
	Well, we do have those things.
	We have rape.
	There's so much violence against women.
	Where can you point out that these things are working?
	I don't see any of these things even working.
	No matter what area you look at, health and disease or education or anything else, I don't see a record to defend.
	I don't see the success thing.
	It's just bottoming out.
	It's not the answer.
	It's not working.
	It seems to me, I mean, I don't know what, that's why I think there's less and less support for it.
	It's just kind of like, you get this big cynical, who can support it?
	What is the amount of faith in any institutions anymore, and why should there be?
	Why are fewer and fewer people voting?
	I mean, you can see all kinds of signs that it's still here, it's still in power, but what does it rest on?
	What is it giving people?
	I'm going to read you what I think is a parody article.
	This appeared in The Onion, whatever The Onion is.
	Might be a website, I don't know.
	But it's a parody, I think, obviously.
	It says, Nevada to phase out laws altogether.
	Carson City, Nevada.
	The Nevada legislature voted Monday to repeal all laws within the state and prohibit the use of any new laws.
	Laws have been good to the state of Nevada, said Governor Kenny Gwinn, between swigs of Jim Beam.
	But ultimately, after considering what's best for the long-term economic growth and prosperity of the state, we decided that lawlessness, or excuse me, lawfulness, just wasn't a good idea.
	Nevada's laws, Gwinn said, this is parody, folks, will be slowly phased out over a five-year period, easing residents into a state of total anarchy.
	Gambling and prostitution have already been decriminalized and car theft is slated to follow in 2004.
	Bans on murder and rape will be lifted in 2007.
	Though the elimination of the rule of law has been a topic of discussion in Carson City for some time, it only recently gained favor among a majority of state legislators.
	Critics always argued that if we allowed gambling and prostitution, it was simply a short leap to lawlessness, said Senate Majority Leader William Reggio, flanked by a pair of Flanked by a pair of armed strippers.
	It didn't sink in for a while, but we eventually just sort of looked at each other and said, why not?
	Without laws, Nevada could offer a whole range of entertainment and lifestyle options never before imagined.
	As a result of the eradication of laws, more than 20,000 police officers and other law enforcement officials stand to lose their jobs.
	The law should be offset, however, with the creation of new jobs in new fields.
	Quote, nothing stimulates employment like lawlessness.
	We estimate this move will create more than 400,000 jobs in such newly legal professions as prize fight rigger, ticket scalper, drug runner, bribe coordinator, and arsonist.
	In the construction industry alone, some 20,000 workers will be needed to build more houses and install stripper poles in fast food restaurants.
	Though Monday's decision eliminates the need for them, Nevada lawmakers will retain their jobs.
	The people of Nevada can rest assured that their state senators and assemblymen will still be taking care of their needs, be they sex, drugs, or a quick CINO to lay down on the Lakers plus six, Quinn said.
	As for Nevada's elected officials in Washington, they'll still be in Congress, but to be honest, they won't be doing a heck of a lot.
	They'll mainly just be hanging out.
	Seeing what the other states are up to.
	Gwin highly recommended that Nevada residents buy a gun, learn how to use it if they plan to remain in the state beyond December 31st, when all gun purchasing and gun use regulations are repealed.
	When the clock strikes midnight, January 1st, 2003, a survival of the fittest, said Gwin, My lovely wife, Demma, can already pick off tin cans from 50 feet, and my son is becoming highly proficient in explosives.
	I strongly suggest you all do likewise.
	Reaction from Nevada's residents has been largely positive.
	I've been waiting for this moment for 20 years, said Reno blackjack dealer Dale Everson, polishing his new machete while enjoying a lap dance.
	Pretty soon, said he, I won't have to worry about speeding tickets or emission tests.
	Only common sense and inherent decency of the people of Nevada will govern this state.
	That'll be more than enough for me.
	What do you think of that, John?
	Laws exist in a very basic way to protect economic development.
	There are some other functions, too, supposedly.
	I would agree with you.
	They do.
	That is the code of the social order, whatever social order you have.
	Law is its language, its code.
	You know, it wouldn't do any good to just get rid of government.
	I mean, that's the classic anarchist thing, smash the state.
	You just get rid of government.
	But, of course, if you don't change the social system...
	Then you're not really helping anything, because it's still going to give you all these problems.
	That's what gives you the problems.
	There are examples on earth of where they have smashed governments, and they end up with all these warring fiefdoms that spring up, these little kingdoms that people create at a macro level, building eventually to another government.
	In other words, It seems like an inevitable evolutionary process.
	Even if you smash government, it's going to come back.
	Like it or not.
	It has come back, that's right.
	It's not a very promising picture, but it just seems like when the worst of it is coming into view, When people consider what kind of a world, what kind of society their children are going to have in just, say, five years, and you've got all of these things coming to pass, the fullness of civilization, in other words, then maybe the scales fall from people's eyes and they have to get rid of the whole thing if we want to have a chance at some freedom and health.
	I think that's what's going on.
	I mean, look at what kind of a society, for example, is it that virtually no one can get through the day without some kind of drug or drugs, legal, illegal, whatever, where kids now, I mean, that's not enough to give kids Ritalin.
	Now, you know, kids as young as two are taking these heavy antidepressants.
	There's tens of millions of people on antidepressants, adults, that is.
	You know, the teenage suicide rate has tripled in the last 30 years.
	You're right.
	I could give you two hours.
	Oh, I know you could, but don't.
	That's not politics.
	That's not what counts as a political issue in this country.
	So they're blocking out all of the real stuff.
	But, John, don't you think that all drugs should be decriminalized?
	Well, yeah, that's not the point.
	It's when you're forced to, driven by the actual Anguish or suffering or discomfort, disease, whatever you have that causes people to take drugs, that's not a free choice.
	Yeah, but in a way, it is the point.
	In other words, there are certain drugs that society has made laws about because they consider them so addictive or so dangerous or whatever, and you just laid all that out for me in a way, and yet you have to support the legalization of all of these drugs.
	Well, but let's take heroin.
	It's, you know, fiercely addictive.
	I've seen it up close.
	So have I. It's awful.
	It's horrible.
	I agree.
	And so you would legalize it, though?
	But the thing is, why would people want to be numbed out in such a total way?
	Why would they turn to crack or heroin or whatever if there was some kind of a decent, healthy Ambient.
	It's only because things are so bad that there is one drug epidemic after another.
	No, it's human nature.
	Well, that's what we're supposed to believe.
	That's how we're kept slaves.
	It's just human nature.
	Show me when that wasn't human nature.
	When people didn't chew on a plant or do something to get a high.
	Well, we don't know the whole picture, but you know, again, the first two million years, we didn't see We didn't see evidence of that kind of thing, because there was a certain harmony, there was a certain connection with each other in the natural world.
	Maybe it's because they were stoned.
	I mean, you don't really know, right?
	Well, no, that seems unlikely, but we don't really know everything about that period.
	We don't, and it may well be that there were more chemicals in use, and that made it an easier time.
	There are people who argue that, you know.
	Yeah, McKinnon, a fellow named McKinnon argues that, I think.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	You've had him on your show.
	I certainly have, yes, yes.
	That seems a little far-fetched to me, frankly.
	It doesn't fit in with the rest of it, but, you know, I'm sure you've spoken with him, and what do you think of that theory?
	Um, my view is pretty well known to the audience on drugs.
	I think that the laws against marijuana are ludicrous, for example.
	I think that it is human nature that, you know, people are going to want something To relax with, and that it's probably a natural thing.
	We happen to have alcohol legal.
	I view alcohol, frankly, as more damaging to society than marijuana.
	So it's all relative, really.
	There are varying dangers of various drugs.
	I don't know.
	It's an individual thing, and there are addictive personalities.
	In this situation, this context, there certainly are.
	Whether or not there used to be, I don't think so, but maybe we'll never know that for sure.
	Well, my guess would be in that idyllic time that you're talking about, that I'm not sure existed, that people probably chewed on stuff and partied.
	That's why I'm saying I think the whole thing is human nature.
	And in some ways, your fight is against human nature.
	I know you don't view it that way.
	You can see the ideological use value.
	Even granting whoever of us is right, relatively, but you can see the utility of having everyone think that and having it pounded into us from every institution, every angle, forever, to keep us in line.
	That is very useful to the system of hierarchy and domination, so we don't stray out there.
	In fact, they always said that.
	Outside the city walls, It's death and doom and, oh, you don't want to go there.
	You're lucky we've got these troops here to keep you here because it's not safe.
	I mean, since the beginning of civilization, people have been told that.
	It's a kind of myth, whether it's true or not.
	It certainly served the people in power.
	You see, the thing was that then, at least certainly in some of history, or a lot of history we can document, the people who didn't live behind those walls and have the protection of those walls and whatever organization protected them, for the most part, died in bloody puddles.
	Well, they died in bloody puddles at the hands of civilization because civilization is a coercive project.
	People are forcibly removed into civilization. There's a ton of anthropology
	that testifies to that. That's just not my...
	It's not handy for my purposes, but... Oh, no, you're right.
	Listen, when we find tribes, generally, that have escaped detection by civilization, we usually go in and give it to them frequently with disastrous results.
	Right.
	That's absolutely true.
	Hold on, we're at the top of the hour, and I hope you'll be willing to answer some questions, because there are plenty.
	I'll try.
	Okay, this should be interesting.
	John Zurzan is an anarchist.
	I'm Art Bell.
	I'm the crest of a wave that's like magic.
	Oh, rollin' and ridin' and sleepin' and slidin' it's magic.
	And you, as you sweep the sand, I'll hire you.
	You shall be my lord.
	I'll hire and care for you.
	Thanks for watching!
	so so
	so so
	so It may still have time, but it might still get by.
	Every time I think about it, I want to cry.
	The bombs in the building, and the kids keep coming.
	The way that we're doing is in a time to be young To reach our goal in the kingdom of Nigh from west of the
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	To reach out on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
	Certainly, as John Zurzan is my guest, many blame him for a lot of what happened up in Seattle at the WTO.
	He corresponds with Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber, and has some in common with him, though he claims not all.
	He, uh, is an interesting man, and I suspect the next hour of Open Lines with John is going to be extremely interesting.
	And so if you would like to participate, uh, you have to use that new, modern, newfangled device called the telephone.
	And call in.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Stay right where you are.
	Alright, back to John Zurzan.
	And there is one other sort of question that I want to ask.
	Actually, a couple.
	John, with respect to what happened on September 11th, what's your attitude about that?
	It was a huge tragedy.
	Loss of life.
	Sudden loss of life.
	I wouldn't have a problem with bringing down those buildings if nobody was in them.
	i think that would be a uh... like to celebrate to tell you the truth but not uh...
	but not uh... this kind of uh...
	loss of life suicidal
	that that type of thing at all uh... but there was a loss of life and uh... in fact john
	it was intended to uh... to occur at a time to incur the maximum loss of life
	You agree with that?
	That was probably the strategy, right?
	So, how do you feel about the fact that we're going after the people that did this?
	Well, I don't know.
	It's a predictable response.
	On one level, the empire cannot afford to be attacked with impunity.
	That's just a function.
	That's just as automatic as anything.
	That's the way it's going to be.
	You know, that's no surprise.
	I was in Europe right after that, and everybody knew the war was coming.
	They were just counting down to see who was going to get bombed first.
	But even saying all that, John, do you support the fact that we're going after the people that did this or not?
	Well, I don't support any government.
	I don't support the state having the power over human life to start with.
	So if you predicate all the rest of this stuff, then you're Then you're in this kind of situation where the logic tells you that it's okay to do this and that, but I don't accept any of that.
	That whole string of stuff starts at a place that has to be unplugged so you don't keep getting this kind of stuff.
	Whether it's the nationalism, the religious fundamentalism, all these are just symptoms.
	These are the things you get from civilization, and they're always the things you get from civilization, and they keep on happening.
	But with worse and worse results, because there's the technology to do more horrible things.
	With the technology you can have industrialized holocausts.
	You can have jetliners fly into skyscrapers at the scale of death that you didn't have before.
	Are you an atheist?
	I would say so.
	I think religion is just one of those compensations or consolations that comes along as As the real stuff flips away, that's part of the
	progression of civilization.
	You get the claim that things can be healed on some imagined realm, which is easier than
	facing the real realm, which is here and now in this world.
	That's where the healing happens, or else it doesn't happen.
	The rest is an illusion.
	It's a company illusion, but millions of people go for it because people are so bereft and
	so sad and so deprived, so you've got people flocking into churches.
	Thank you.
	Well, then, on September 12th, what was your attitude?
	That we should, well, gee, this only happened because of the way we are.
	That's why this happened.
	It didn't happen because there's Some madman, from our perspective anyway, who thinks that our religion is all wrong, and whose main objective is seeing us die.
	I mean, it wasn't like they wanted a change in US policy of any particular sort.
	They sort of just wanted us dead, and now we're responding.
	Well, there are various reasons and various levels of causation, I suppose.
	In other words, I think Islam and Christianity are both nature-hating religions fundamentally, and one competes with the other at times, so you don't get anything good out of that.
	You just get more death and destruction, and it goes on and on.
	It's thousands of years old, and the oceans are full of the blood of all that idiocy, and we still keep recycling it and reproducing it.
	Do you believe that we're headed for all-out war?
	Well, I don't see how they can be all at war, because there's only one superpower.
	I mean, it's the war of just, you know, the U.S.
	bombing whoever it wants, and I don't know if that's a war.
	It's like Iraq.
	You can kill several hundred thousand Iraqis.
	They're lambs to the slaughter, because they accept, or they suffer under a certain regime, and here comes another regime that's bigger and stomps on them, and, you know, that's about it.
	All right.
	Promise to go to the lines.
	Let's do it.
	First time caller on the line.
	You're on the air with John Zurzan.
	Hello.
	Hey.
	I have a question, kind of.
	All right.
	Kind of, that's all right.
	Where are you?
	Right.
	In Seattle.
	Seattle.
	Oh, Seattle.
	Yeah.
	Seattle.
	Seattle.
	Okay.
	If society got rid of all the cops and government and let all the rapers and pillagers run loose, wouldn't it just be a question of Like where you place your faith in good or evil.
	I'm thinking our society basically places its faith in evil by assuming that if you let all the criminals run free that they're going to come kill us.
	I think that seems like a basic thing.
	Yeah, well we were kind of talking about this before.
	In other words, what causes All the awful behaviors.
	It doesn't come down from heaven, in my view.
	It comes from what happens in society.
	It comes from the pressures and all of the ways people are damaged and deformed, and then you get awful results.
	And then what do you do with them?
	But it doesn't occur to enough people yet that the way to stop this whole cycle is to think about What would a society be like that doesn't turn out all kinds of antisocial behavior?
	I'm not saying there's no antisocial behavior.
	There is, but why?
	I don't believe it's human nature.
	If you treat people well, they behave well.
	If they're abused in a thousand different ways and messed up, then they're going to be dangerous.
	I'm not sure that's true, John.
	the other is fundamental not sure that's true john in other words in in a lot of uh...
	really uh... family oriented close near american households
	some youngsters that come up for some indiscernible inexplicable reason
	become completely and i social and start slaughtering people now
	Now, up until that moment, they've been raised with a mom and a dad and a tight family unit and all the things that I'm sure you probably believe in, and yet they go berserk.
	So there is, documentably, Uncontrollable, inexplicable, anti-social behavior.
	Would you have no means whatsoever to control that?
	Well, no, but it's not a real simple, obvious equation, at least not always.
	I mean, that child, there may be a loving family, but the child exists in this whole larger culture and gets all kinds of other stuff.
	uh... in in all kinds of other settings you know from media from school from everywhere else and uh...
	and there's i mean we don't know i'm not claiming to know how all these
	things exactly uh...
	connector don't connect but you know you know but it is really isn't proof against the larger uh...
	unhealthy situation right there
	I mean, it's something of a protection, but not much, maybe.
	Okay, but before you call for the dissolution of all things that would protect us from anti-social behavior of this sort... Well, but that's assuming you're taking away, in the process, you're taking away those things that create the behavior.
	I mean, in other words, you don't need a defense against them if you're not creating them, if they're not If they don't exist beforehand, I mean, and you know, for example, there was no, and this, you probably won't believe this one either in terms of the anthropology, just to jump back there for a second, but there was no infectious disease, no degenerative disease before civilization.
	That's just about all the diseases that exist before civilization.
	They are products of civilization.
	So in other words, you say, what are we going to do about all the disease?
	We've got to have a way to deal with the disease.
	But what causes the disease?
	But John, you keep saying these things that you really can't document.
	When was it, other than perhaps Adam and Eve prior to the apple or whatever, when there wasn't disease?
	I don't know of any history where there was absolutely no disease.
	I didn't say absolutely no, but I grant you that there's a certain irony here because actually it's greater technology that has given us a more precise Reading on these things, for example, they can tell more from fossilized bones from 10,000 years ago or more, a great deal more than we knew even 20 years ago.
	So now there's lots and lots of books that show that they can determine what was the health and the robusticity and whether they're disease or not disease.
	We know that.
	It's a matter of evidence, it's not a matter of ideology.
	Okay, but if you track the record of civilization, as many pitfalls and road bumps and potholes as there may be on the way, at the beginning of civilization we had all kinds of sickness and death and disease and plague, and much of that has been eradicated, and documentably, During the period of civilization, man's average longevity has increased very dramatically.
	In fact, early in civilization, John, you'd be dead and buried long since.
	Yep.
	Well, there's a couple of things to be said to that.
	One is, all of these diseases that technology was supposed to have gotten rid of, not all of them, but a lot of them are coming back, and there's a whole host of new ones.
	Macau disease, West Nile virus, there's a whole lot.
	In other words, technology always says, just a little more technology and we'll have it.
	Well, actually, this is so widely known, February National Geographic has a long article, and that's a very orthodox source.
	And that's what they're saying, drawing on all the evidence.
	So, in other words, it hasn't exactly won the day.
	Yeah, people live longer.
	People are kept alive.
	One thing to consider, though, is what kind of life.
	If you have to take all these drugs to be normal or at least not totally chronically depressed or have some of these diseases now, they're multiplying and people don't even know what causes them, like chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia.
	I could go on and on about that.
	Really miserable on a visceral level.
	We can stay alive longer, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with staying alive.
	I hope to stay alive for a while.
	Well, yeah, because I was going to ask you, John, you said you're 58.
	Yeah.
	You and I are both at risk, as we all are at any moment, of say, I don't know, let's say we get some disabling heart disease, all right?
	And without radical technological measures, even perhaps the possibility of a transplanted new heart, You're going to die.
	Now, if the doctor were to come to you and say, John, your heart's giving out, there's nothing we can do for you.
	In a month, you're going to be dead if you don't take this heart transplant.
	Unfortunately, we've got you on a list and we've got a heart for you.
	Do you want this heart, John, or not?
	I'd take it in a heartbeat.
	I doubt if I'd think twice about that one.
	John, to get that heart to you, my God almighty, we've got to do the most heroic kinds of things to get that heart to you and into you and beating and keeping you alive.
	The technology is astounding that would do that and you'd take it in a heartbeat.
	Well, I know.
	I have a friend who went through the same thing and had much the same ideas as me, who died in the 80s under the knife on the operating table.
	He chose to try to get some success through surgery.
	Ultimately, it didn't happen.
	Again, we're in the same force field, the same context, the same stage of development.
	I wouldn't die if I didn't have to.
	You'd take the advantage of all that technology.
	Which is what I do every day.
	When I turn on the hot water and hot water comes out, I realize that I'm not creating the hot water.
	It's the whole system that people have to labor every day to maintain so that I have hot water.
	You're damn right.
	And so when you go to sleep at night, how do you sleep, John?
	I mean, you're sleeping on a bed of sharp Well, I think about them, but I didn't choose the time and place of my birth.
	by one of those that you advertised. Don't you go to sleep at night just having a real problem
	thinking about the contradictions and and having them roll through your head? Well I think about
	them but I didn't choose uh you know the time and place of my birth and I you know having certain
	ideas doesn't rescue me from this context and so I'm not you know I live pretty much like anyone
	else and you know I yeah.
	Those are contradictions, just like being on the radio with you right now is.
	You've got to make your deal with the devil, so to speak, right?
	Yeah, and it's not the right decision.
	Doesn't this lead to frustration for you, and even ultimately, if you can't handle it, antisocial behavior?
	Well, what am I talking about?
	You've already exhibited a lot of antisocial behavior, haven't you?
	Well, I don't know.
	That's exactly the term.
	It may be so.
	Well, from civilization's point of view.
	Yeah, but I'll tell you, I don't feel frustrated or somewhat frustrated when you look at what's going on, but I also feel very hopeful about things.
	I think people are starting to see They already feel it, and I think people are starting to really... John, hold on.
	We're at the bottom of the airwave.
	We've got to break here, and we'll be right back.
	And we will lay heavily into tone for the last half hour.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Stay right where you are.
	John?
	The devil went down to Georgia.
	He was looking for a soul to steal.
	He was in a bind, cause he was way behind.
	He was willing to make a deal.
	When he came across this young man sawin' on a fiddle and playin' it hot.
	And the devil jumped up on a hickory stump and said, boy, let me tell you what.
	I guess you didn't know it, but I'm a fiddle player too.
	And if you'd care to take a dare, I'll make a bet with you.
	Now you play a pretty good fiddle, boy, but give the devil his due.
	I'll bet a fiddle of gold against your soul, cause I think I'm better than you.
	The boss said my name's Johnny and it might be a sin, but I'll take your bet you're gonna regret
	Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you don't try
	imagine there's no heaven it's easy if you go try
	No hell below us Above us only sky
	no hell below us above us only sky
	Listen to the words because I think this is what the johns were talking about
	listen to the words because I think this is what the johns were talking about
	Imagine all the people Living for today
	living for today imagine there's no country
	Yeah Imagine there's no country
	It isn't hard to do You
	it isn't hard to do nothing to kill or die for
	no religion to imagine all the people
	living life in peace Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nigh from Western the Rockies
	at 1-800-9-4-0-0.
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	of the Rockies 1-800-825-5033. First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222 and
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	John Lennon wasn't a communist.
	and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
	You know, when John Lennon sang this, a lot of people said he was a communist.
	John Lennon wasn't a communist. He may have been an anarchist, though.
	If you listen to what the Johns are saying, or singing in this case...
	Then I think you're dealing with not a communist, but an idealist.
	Somebody who has an idea.
	It's not practical, but it's an idea.
	I do think John was a dreamer, and this John too is a dreamer.
	and I think it's an impossible dream.
	Alright, just like with...
	John Lennon was a dreamer.
	He sang it himself.
	He was a dreamer.
	And I think, John, you're probably a dreamer, too.
	Pretty much of the same school.
	You think?
	Well, that's a lovely lyric.
	That's very much the case.
	And I think... One question, though, is the dreaming.
	Aren't we dreaming if we're thinking that this... We're not thinking.
	To allow the present trajectory just to go on, and given what it's producing, more and more... I mean, that's kind of... No, John, I... No, I agree with you.
	That the present trajectory is perhaps even suicidal, in my opinion.
	You and I just disagree on the methods of changing it.
	You pretty much think that it's got to be taken down to the ground, essentially burned down, and then the phoenix rising from the ashes.
	I think there may be a way to do it.
	A different way to do it, John.
	But that's the difference between us.
	I've got to take calls.
	I very much enjoyed doing this program with you.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with John Zerzan.
	Hi.
	Yes, Wayne in Phoenix on KBYI.
	Yes, sir.
	John, I think you're exercising imminent common sense.
	I think you're a dreamer with your feet on the ground.
	I would generally agree with you with some qualifications.
	Maybe I would tend to agree a little more with Art in that rather than, you know, taking it to the ground, the technology to the ground, that we should really seriously start applying the brakes.
	But I think it'll be a little bit of a conspiracist point of view that maybe a lot of this technology, whiz bang technology, especially in the way of our toys and our everyday gadgetry, Is one way of distracting us so that we remain basically powerless.
	I see a lot of the mass pathology of our society going hand in hand with this mass and over pride technology.
	What do you think about that and do you think that there should be a spiritual component to make your system work?
	There has to be a very broad based spiritual component and people have to generally become more wise.
	Well, yeah, I have a feeling that that's what you get when you are in touch.
	I think people did have a kind of communion with the natural world.
	Maybe that's my kind of definition of the spirit or spiritual, having that intact connection with the world and with each other.
	You don't have to invent other realms.
	You have the spirit there.
	I agree with what you're saying.
	There is a lot of distraction.
	There's ever more stuff to buy, and it's always obsolete, and people are working more and more.
	In fact, the gadgets are making them work more and more when you think about it, huh?
	I mean, the beepers and the cell phones and all the different ways.
	You can't even get away from work when you're not working.
	They'll rope you in on the electronic leash.
	I can't argue with that.
	I'm leashed very tightly indeed.
	So I can't argue with that.
	I mean, that's all true, but one can argue that as technological, even social progress, or one can argue, as you are, that it is actually the exact opposite, right?
	Yeah.
	Both arguments are interesting.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Jon Zerzan.
	Hi.
	All right.
	Hey, it's Steve in the Virgin Islands.
	How are you?
	I'm okay, Steve.
	Good.
	Listen, John, it's a privilege to talk to you.
	Hearing you tonight is just confirmation of a lot of decisions I've made personally.
	Quick question, though.
	From somebody who has taken his own steps five years ago to basically give away everything I owned and walk away from a six-figure job, leave my sports car at the airport, the whole nine yards to start a whole new life away from seeing myself basically buy what I was owning and what I was buying.
	What would be practical advice that you would give sort of pseudo-anarchists out there for how they can continue along their path without maybe going to the extreme of living in a cabin without any possessions at all?
	What would be your advice for somebody like me who would want to continue on this road but isn't really prepared to take it to that extreme?
	Well, it sounds like you have been taking it to extremes.
	Walking the walk, not just talking the talk.
	I'd be real interested to hear what you're doing.
	You evidently feel you were giving something up.
	You were gaining something by walking away from all of that high pressure, I suppose, and all of the rest of it.
	Yeah, but along the way, I've taken a lot of lumps.
	I've taken people looking at me like I'm You know, and that's not really the issue.
	The issue more for me is, at this stage in my life, is just trying to wake people up.
	I'm currently, I've gone into mental health, so you guys talking about anti-social behavior rings a lot of truth to me.
	And what they're actually finding out with anti-social behavior is that it's actually an adaptive tool that people are beginning to use to adapt to an insane society.
	Wow.
	And I guess my question is, so I can let other people on, Is what can people who are like me, who are listening to you tonight, apply on a level which wouldn't be as extreme as burning it down and waiting for it to rise from the ashes?
	But what can we do to rebel, to sort of do things that wouldn't be to the extreme of getting arrested?
	Because, I mean, I've done things on my own that would qualify, like you said before, as walking the walk.
	Well, by the way, on the mental health thing, I just today got the brand new AdBusters magazine and the whole theme is mental health.
	There are a couple of pieces that speak right to what you were saying, that agree with the point about that it's an adaptation, the disorders.
	Well, I think everybody has to make that decision on their own.
	I think the most fundamental thing is how do we get the dialogue shifted into the real stuff and not just the All this peripheral stuff, because it's not going to really happen until everybody starts questioning this and working together and thinking together and questioning together.
	To me, some of the rest of this actually is related to that.
	In other words, just to step back for a second, for example, the property destruction in Seattle, for example, that put on the table some new ideas that, you know, you can have all the good ideas, but you've got to back them up somehow.
	Well, now maybe we're getting to the stage where Where respectable dialogue or acceptable dialogue is going to include, necessarily, questioning things at a deep level, questioning these institutions that we all used to take for granted.
	So anything that contributes to that, I think, is the real work.
	Whether or not you're in the streets or whatever other kind of activist stuff, I think, to me, that's the real point.
	If we can all start talking and Really, calling these things into question is going to change, otherwise it isn't going to change.
	Here's one for you, John.
	Since you're on 500 plus radio stations right now, the Federal Communications Commission regulates the broadcast of radio and television and other aspects of things that go through the air.
	They do this because without it there would be anarchy.
	In other words, the Johns of the world and others would just begin broadcasting on any old frequency and pretty soon nobody would hear anybody.
	I mean, you would have such a mishmash of signals that nothing intelligible would get through.
	So in this case, You make the case that the regulation allows the intelligent transmission of communication.
	And without it, and with anarchy, you would not have the intelligent transmission of communication.
	You would have a big jumble of nothing that you could understand.
	So, you would obviously be against this kind of regulation.
	I'm sure you are opposed to it.
	Well, you have me in terms of the technical Stuff of how it actually works.
	But, you know, there are thousands of pirate radio stations, micro-radio, underground, whatever you call it.
	And many of them are interfering with legitimate broadcasters, neither one getting heard very well.
	That's my point.
	Aren't they so low-powered and local that that doesn't happen all that much?
	Well, sometimes.
	But, you know, and the SEC clamps down, and they damn well ought to clamp down.
	Well, there have been raids.
	But, I don't know, if you think that it's legitimate to visit some damage on a corporation, these mega commercial radio stations, I mean, I don't have a lot of respect for the stuff that they're pumping out.
	It's part of the... Well, one thing they're pumping out right now is you, some of the biggest, listen, WABC in New York, WLS in Chicago, KFI in Los Angeles, we're talking some of the Well, the biggest radio stations in the entire country right now, and they're pumping out you.
	There you go, another contradiction, eh?
	A big one, too.
	But I'd really rather... I mean, I'm not... I'm certainly not trashing this opportunity for this conversation tonight, but... But with anarchy on the airwaves, this conversation wouldn't be happening.
	Well, not on a national, coast-to-coast deal, but that's not the ideal.
	I mean, if we're And I am talking about an extremely decentralized, localized thing.
	And if there was the technology for it at all, I mean, I could well imagine that there's a lot of little, tiny, low-powered ones that can cooperate in some way and still be very, very localized instead of one voice that booms across the whole country.
	I'm frankly uncomfortable with that.
	But it is the only way, and the reason you're doing it is because it's the only way you can get your message to be received by millions, an absolute necessity in today's civilization.
	Well, that's true, but I'm also, I mean, I'm a bundle of contradictions here, but I'm actually also uncomfortable with the idea that any one person's idea, or just a few people's ideas, would have that much influence.
	In other words, the real healthy thing would be And I hope we get there real soon, where everybody's ideas are part of this, and it doesn't even require anybody who's writing books or otherwise to be on some national radio or TV talking about it.
	Well, so then, if you're being on this program tonight succeeded in converting millions of people to your point of view, that would be a bad thing?
	Well, no, and I would be out of business in terms of this role very happily, because I am uncomfortable with the contradictions of it.
	I mean, I'm not inflating my importance or anything, but that's part of the goal, though, is to break this all down to where you don't have this massified, nationalized culture where Just a couple of people get hurt.
	But John, doesn't the fact that you are being heard legitimately without being torn apart here, doesn't that validate the system in a way?
	I mean, the amount of freedom, you know, this great First Amendment thing we have.
	Here you are, a gigantic contrarian with even some violent tendencies, perhaps, and you're on the air speaking.
	Well, so far.
	I have friends from Eugene that are in prison right now, and you know, the way things are going, just in terms of the legal climate and all that stuff... Well, if you blow up buildings, you're probably going to jail.
	Well, they're not in prison for blowing up buildings, but anyway... Well, are they in prison just for speaking?
	No, they're not.
	They're not.
	Right, I don't want to give that impression.
	I'm not paranoid to the degree where I think that They're going to slap people in prison for the wrong idea.
	That's not happening yet, and I think there'd be huge resistance in this country if they tried to do that.
	But I'm trying to say that your presence here is, to some degree, a demonstration of one positive aspect of our civilization.
	Well, there are some freedoms.
	People can speak out, and people need to speak out.
	I'm trying to take advantage of it.
	Okay, and you are.
	Wes for the Rockies, you're on the air with Jon Zerzan.
	Hi.
	Hi Art, how you doing?
	First of all, I'd like to talk about what happened in Seattle.
	I'm Dan from Eugene, Oregon.
	And the people who demonstrated in Seattle weren't all anarchists.
	The vast majority of them were non-violent and opposed to property damage.
	They were also opposed to corporate domination of our world governments and our personal selves.
	In fact, John Sweeney was a member of the protesters at the World Trade Organization in Seattle.
	He's the president of the AFL-CIO.
	He led a bunch of blue-collar workers who took their vacation times to demonstrate.
	Anyway, that being said, I would also like to talk about... The same unions that are trying to drill in the Arctic right now.
	That's quite an alliance.
	I'm afraid that doesn't go very far, does it?
	If you trust in the union bosses to be part of the liberation, you'll be waiting a long time.
	Caller?
	Caller went away.
	Actually, they just voted down the President's intention to drill an ANWR.
	Had you heard that?
	No, no.
	That's good news.
	I'm not sure if it is or not.
	In the short term, we're going to need the oil.
	We need to make a very fast Transition to alternative fuels, but probably in the short term we're going to need the oil.
	So I don't know if it's good news or not.
	I mean, we did on the North Slope, John, other than the Exxon Valdez, which was a shipping disaster, the pipeline from the North Slope has been, frankly, Fairly environmentally friendly.
	It isn't, in fact, caribou up there kind of cozy up to the pipeline because it's warm, and they like it, and they seem to reproduce a lot around it, and it hasn't really, you know, been a bad thing.
	Well, the question of energy, though, if you want alternative sources of energy... I do.
	...or the old sources or any sources, but for what?
	I mean, to run the same system.
	I mean, isn't that, to me, that's the question, whether Whether we should keep it running.
	There's a lot of things that should never have been done, but now we're scrambling.
	Not we, but some people are scrambling to have the energy to keep them going.
	Build more freeways?
	You know, destroy more of everything all over the world?
	I mean, I don't want any energy for that.
	No, that's the difference between the two of us.
	I want technology to march forward, but I want to do it intelligently, and I think we need to start... We do need energy, I believe, but we need alternative forms of energy.
	Friendly energy, we need green energy, we need solar panels, we need wind generation, that sort of thing.
	That's, I guess, my compromise and sort of Where I might meet you a little bit, but you don't even want that.
	You want to sort of... I sound like a total absolutist here, I guess.
	Well, you are.
	Yeah, in a sense.
	And when you look at all these things, I mean, you know, it's everybody's decision as to... or opinion as to what... how much of this do we keep running?
	And you... I mean, if you just replace all the energy sources, like I guess I sort of just said, By new ones, you don't change anything except you just have different sources of energy.
	You've still got the same industrial civilization.
	You're just running it some other way.
	Some of these things, by the way, they're not non-toxic.
	Some of these things, they take a big hit to produce these panels and so on.
	you know that that there they take a lot of uh...
	they'd they'd take a big hit to produce these uh... pal and so on it's not like that
	even even or any more than for the bike that i'm writing I mean, that comes out of a factory, and forging, and metal extraction, and everything else.
	Sure does.
	Oh, even petroleum products.
	I mean, look at your tires.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	I realize that.
	So... Maybe I should do more walking.
	Well, you know, those shoes you wear, I think there's a lot of petroleum probably in those, too.
	Yep, you're right.
	Of course, you could always go with bare feet.
	Listen, I want to give you a chance.
	We're running out of time here real quickly.
	It's been an awful lot of fun.
	Your book is Running on Emptiness, the Pathology of Civilization.
	Available where?
	On Amazon, that kind of place?
	I guess so, yeah.
	It's around and about.
	Earl House is a pretty good distributor, I think.
	Amazon.com.
	You're going to need a computer for that, folks.
	And, of course, we have a link on my webpage.
	John wouldn't know about that either, though.
	Bookstores?
	I can get it?
	Yeah, I think so.
	Thanks for mentioning it.
	You're very welcome.
	It actually has been a lot of fun.
	Same here.
	Okay.
	We'll do it again sometime, John.
	Thank you.
	Terrific.
	Thank you.
	Take care.
	I'm so sorry we're out of time.
	Really could have gone on mostly forever with this.
	Very, very interesting.
	John Zerzan, an anarchist to the point of violence in certainly some cases.
	And now you've heard what he's had to say and you can digest and think about it and think if it makes sense to you or if there were too many contradictions there for you.
	It's all up to you.
	That's what it's all about.
	I'm Art Bell.

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