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March 7, 2002 - Art Bell
02:44:53
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Dr. Joyce Hawkes - NDEs and Indigenous Healing Wisdom. Colm Kelleher - Animal Mutliations
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♪♪♪ From the high desert in the great American Southwest,
I bid you good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be across all 24 time zones.
Covered by this program, Around the Globe, I'm Art Bell.
The program is Coast to Coast AML.
As you all know, uh, my back once again reached out and got me for a couple of days.
But I have returned, stronger than ever.
So, we'll dive into what we're going to do tonight.
Dr. Tom Killeher is a staff member of the National Institute of Discovery Science.
As a researcher, scientist, and deputy administrator, where his responsibilities include overseeing NIDS research projects, Dr. Kelleher received a B.S.
degree in biochemistry from the University College Dublin, Ph.D.
in biochemistry from the University of Dublin, Trinity College.
Until 1996, Dr. Kelleher was an instructor at the National Jewish Center for Immunology, Denver, where his research projects included molecular biology of Epstein-Barr virus infection of human B and T cells, expression of human androgynous retrovirus like Transposon Sequences in Human Immune Cells HIV Infection of Human Cells Expression of Human Nerve Growth in Factor Receptors on Human B-Cells, Aye Aye Aye, has been a research associate at the Molecular Genetics Lab, Terry Fox Laboratory, British Columbia Cancer Agency, Vancouver, BC, served as a postdoctorate fellow of the Ontario Cancer Institute, Toronto,
...was recipient of a National Science and Engineering Research Council Canada Award in Biochemistry in 1985, and a W.P.
Craven Memorial Award in Medical Sciences in 1986, Dr. Killeher, has authored and co-authored 36 peer-reviewed publications in Molecular Immunology, Virology, and Biochemistry.
It's also been published in numerous articles for the layperson in magazines including Omni.
NIDS is operated, funded by Robert Bigelow, a really nice, really interesting guy in Las Vegas, very well to do, who has been doing this for a lot of years now, has the resources And the ability to investigate odd, paranormal, or otherwise things as they occur, UFO sightings, whatever.
Now there's a hotline telephone number that I am about to give you, which you're welcome to call right now, if you have anything odd, bizarre, strange, that needs to be investigated.
Anything you would like to report.
Here is the hotline number which is open right now at this hour.
Unusually at this time, but it is open right now.
Area code 702-798-1700.
Let me give that again.
Put it on your refrigerator.
If you have anything that you really think bears serious investigation in the world of the unusual, This is the number.
You could even call now.
702-798-1700.
In a moment, Colm Culliher.
Alright, over the hill now, 65 miles or so to Colm Culliher, who is a Deputy Administrator for NIDS and a remarkable organization.
I'll give you the hotline number one more time.
It's open right now.
At 702-798-1700.
I believe we've got as many as three cases to cover with Cullum.
And we're going to talk again about animal mutilations.
Pretty rough stuff.
Cullum Gallaher, welcome.
Thank you, Art.
It's good to be here again.
Great to have you.
The last time that we talked, Cullum, you said that you were leaning toward the explanation Regarding kettle mutilations, if I'm recalling correctly, you were laying it out on the probability of some sort of ritualistic operation of some kind, right?
Yeah, that would be pretty accurate.
And, you know, we still have absolutely no idea who is carrying out these bizarre mutilations that now seem to have really Come up again since last summer.
Since we talked last?
Well, there have been a few more cases, but there's really been a very large resurgence of cases since about June of 2001.
Before that, our institute was getting them at maybe one or two per year, and since June of 2001, we've had over 20 reports, which is a dramatic increase.
Alright, well as people listen to what you're about to say, I want them to bear in mind this possible explanation of,
you know, satanic doings causing this, because some of the evidence that you're about to present seems to contradict
that possibility.
But you go right ahead and tell us about it.
Well, the element of ritual that I was talking about I think is very much present in some of these cases, but in
terms of satanic ritual, we're very skeptical about whether or not satanic cults or whatever are involved in this.
Oh, okay.
Oh!
Then when you said ritual, you weren't necessarily referring to... That's correct.
So, yeah, we were not... Well, I'm glad you cleared that up because the lack of any footprints within a mile around these things is a big problem.
Yeah, it certainly is.
We think that the vast majority of the cults that have been investigated in the 1970s and 1980s especially we're very well aware of the kinds of law enforcement investigations that went on in Montana not to mention New Mexico and Utah and Colorado and in each of these cases law enforcement went after the local cults and in all of the cases nobody was caught or charged and most of the cults have a totally different modus operandi.
They tend to focus on chickens and goats and other small animals.
So if you want to go into a pasture and tackle a 2,000 pound bull
who can be very, very ornery, most, I think, most, you would say, normal colts, so to
speak, would shy away from that.
And if they didn't, they'd definitely want to have the very largest of the cult members do the work.
Exactly.
The fastest runners, if possible.
The fastest runners.
Yeah, OK.
Well, let's hear about some of these cases.
The first case that I'm going to talk about happened, one of the first cases that we actually encountered in the news organization.
And that happened in March, on March 10th of 97.
It was a very unusual animal mutilation as we were to find out because it happened in daylight.
And briefly what happened was there were two ranchers who were tagging their animals, newborn calves, in a pasture which was essentially wide open.
The nearest cover was about a hundred yards away.
And they had a dog, a blue heeler with them, which always accompanied them and it was one of their favorite dogs.
They tagged the animal, they waited, it was about 87 pounds and they moved off west after tagging the animal.
They moved about 300 yards west down the field and they were still in the same pasture but there was a very very slight dip in the pasture and they started tagging Um, the next animal, there were multiple calves that had been born the previous night.
Right.
So they were tagging the second calf and they were just finishing that when their blue eelers started to act very strangely.
Their, their, oh, their dog.
Their dog.
Yeah.
And, um, the dog, the dog started growling and started barking and facing back in the direction from which they'd just come.
Um, but the hers on the back of the neck went up.
And it started getting more and more agitated, so they started taking notice.
The healer then acted really unexpectedly and just took off.
It took off in a westerly direction, away from the direction they'd just come.
Right.
And the rancher told us that they never saw that dog again.
The dog just took off.
They never saw the dog again?
They never saw the dog again.
Now this was not just a kind of a wild dog that hung around.
This was a A very treasured family, almost a pet.
It seems like I've heard this story before, but I've never heard that.
You may have, but because it was one of the more bizarre cases because the ranchers looked around at the direction that the healer was focused on, so they noticed that one of the cows was running in a very kind of frantic manner back and forth from one spot in the middle of the field towards the fence line and then back again so they started coming back to investigate and to cut a long story short they walked back and they found that the calf that they had just tagged now remember they've they had a very good memory in terms of the kinds of coloring on the calf well they had just done the tag they had just done it 45 minutes previously right and the animal was lying spread-eagled on its back in the middle of the pasture
Obviously having been carefully laid out, the entire middle section of the animal was gone.
The only thing left was that the ribs were protruding up from the spine.
All of the internal organs were gone.
All of the muscle, all of the tissue, all the way from the neck down to the legs.
Now the interesting thing about it was I will never just a hill away a hill and a dip away you
that's right oh my god so this just happened not only that but excuse me was this a long
time dog they'd had a long time this this was uh there was about a 45 minute interval
between um when they tag the animal and when they return to the animal
Yes, yes.
This dog, had it been a pet a long time?
It had been with them years and years.
So it was one of their best dogs for cattle.
It was a really good cattle dog.
And they were extremely agitated to lose the dog.
But they never saw the animal again.
Oh my God.
Maybe they're lucky they didn't get back there as quickly as the dog.
Well, the dog obviously sensed something and maybe even saw something that really put the terrors into him.
And he just took off, didn't want to be around.
Do they know for sure, Colm, that he took off?
In other words, if the dog has never been seen again, how do they know it took off versus meeting some unkind fate?
They don't.
They don't?
They have no idea what happened to the dog.
They obviously, in the days subsequent, they searched the property.
They even drove around the local roads to see if it had been run over by traffic.
They went through the usual search procedures and they couldn't find the dog.
Oh.
And they asked the neighbors, they asked all of the nearby ranches, and nothing.
Nothing was ever seen of that dog again.
If I was laying money, I'd lay it more on unkind fate than I would dog ran away and never came back again.
Yeah, that is, you know, it was a real part of this whole mystery.
Everybody needs to understand this happened at what's called the ranch. Yes?
Yes.
The ranch is an area where paranormal type things were occurring on a pretty regular basis.
Bob Bigelow bought the ranch and then put investigators on the ranch.
And that's what you're hearing about.
These investigators were doing their work and ran into what you just heard about.
And I never had heard about the dog part.
Wow.
Yeah.
And you know, that incident actually really made us pay attention.
Every other investigation we ever went on in that particular area, we always had dogs with us because we knew that they were capable of sensing beyond the usual human perceptions.
So, anyway, the ranchers came upon this animal.
There was not a single drop of blood, either on the animal or on the grass.
Remember, pretty well 60% of the body weight of the animal was gone in 45 minutes in broad daylight.
On a bright sunny day, you know, in the morning.
Signs of predation of what?
It looked initially to the ranchers that something extremely powerful had attacked the animal because the ball and socket joints had been literally ripped apart.
And even with an 87 pound calf, that is quite a feat of strength.
They thought they saw evidence of chewing on the animal.
And, um, but then when they couldn't see any sign of, of, uh, entrails or blood or anything around the animal, they decided something very strange had happened.
And then they called, um, they called NIDS in Las Vegas here.
Um, we were on a plane within hours and we were standing over that animal within, uh, five or six hours of the call.
And we had all of the instruments at our disposal.
Was there any follow-up forensic type evidence of what occurred?
Yes, essentially there were several levels of investigation, some of them forensic.
The first level of investigation was a veterinarian went through that animal inch by inch And discovered that the ear which had been recently tagged with a very large yellow ear tag had been completely removed very close to the skull with obviously a sharp instrument.
So here we had the calf that looked like it had been initially looked like had been attacked but now we found sharp instrument had obviously been used so In order to confirm that, the veterinarian took a sample,
sent it to a veterinary pathology lab, and the veterinary pathology lab confirmed that a sharp
instrument had been used on that animal.
Oh, that's creepy. So, even if there's predation, it's either after the fact or something worse.
Yeah, well, we went through a whole bunch of predation scenarios, and even a bear, a ravenous
bear would have a lot of difficulty in consuming about 60 pounds of meat in 45 minutes flat.
You know, without a break, essentially.
Not only that, but not leaving any mess whatsoever on the ground.
And we really went after the... looking for occult blood.
Blood under the animal, blood even on the animal's hide, or on the grass, and it was not a drop.
Now, there was another element to this, and that was one of the femurs, like I had mentioned, had been forcibly ripped out.
That's one of the bones on the leg?
Yes.
Forcibly ripped out and dropped about 10 feet away from the animal.
We took that bone, that femur bone, and sent it to a human pathologist who specializes in looking at bone and looking at injuries.
And this is one of the best forensic pathologists in the country.
Right.
Out in the East Coast.
He sent back a report to us saying that definitively two separate types of sharp instruments have been used on this animal.
The first was like a heavy machete type instrument and the second one was more a finer type instrument like a scissors.
Now We actually posted some fairly graphic pictures of this animal on our website recently.
Oh.
And, um, it's there, um, it's kind of like caution.
Because some of the pictures are not particularly attractive.
We have a link, so yes, everybody, a caution.
Yeah.
These are mutilations we're talking about, so obviously.
These are definitely mutilations, but the real impression that we got when we arrived at this animal was that tremendous force had been used in combination with extreme care and the The ritual element that I alluded to was the way the animal had been placed on the ground.
It was almost placed with extreme care.
It had that look as if extreme care had been used in placing the animal with all four legs spread eagled apart and lying in the middle of the pasture in broad daylight with absolutely no blood or no entrails anywhere around.
Okay, great.
Colm, with all you just told me, Uh, as good, hard evidence.
Honestly, what does that leave, uh, in terms of possibilities, uh, as we're considering perpetrators who could accomplish this?
What, what, what are the possibilities we have?
Well, we went through a whole range of possibilities.
I mentioned briefly the whole predator possibility, which we pretty well eliminated once we started hearing about the sharp instrument.
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, so what does that leave you with?
Well, we decided to follow it up by employing a tracker, a professional tracker who makes his living, you know, tracking game, just to make sure that there might have been no tracks left.
And he quartered that area extremely thoroughly for several days and not a single track.
Now, I should also mention there was a ring of unmelted snow around the perimeter of the field.
So if anybody or thing had entered the field via the perimeter, Um, they would have left tracks in the snow.
There were no tracks.
So, no tracks of anything.
Well, okay then, again, Callum, what does that leave us with?
Okay, well, one of the scenarios that we went through was the possibility that maybe this was a, a, an assassination training exercise, for want of a better word.
That, um, for example, an extremely well-trained unit could have been ...training in assassinations in daylight.
And we went through multiple different scenarios like that, but each one had almost insurmountable problems in terms of logistics.
Alright, if there was enough time left, I'd then ask you, well then, what does that leave us with?
And I will ask it when we get back.
Hold on.
We're at the bottom of the hour.
I don't think that leaves us with very much, frankly.
In terms of possibilities.
Pretty evil.
Feels pretty evil, doesn't it?
Puts the hairs on the back of your neck up a little bit.
That's what's going on out there.
you get the straight stuff and we'll be right back.
Welcome to the show.
I'm Bill Shkurti.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
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This is Coast to Coast AM, with Art Bell, from the Kingdom of Nye.
It is indeed.
Good morning, everybody.
Colin Callagher is here, and indeed the question is...
Well now, what possibilities?
With everything just described... The use of a sharp implement which rules out predation as I understand it.
You know, like the scissors or whatever.
Something that sharp.
And no tracks anywhere.
Do you like the scenario of the assassination?
The practice assassination?
I don't.
What does that leave us with?
You know, it's very interesting.
All this time since Colm had talked earlier, I don't know, it had to have been a month ago, and he mentioned the ritualistic aspect to it.
I've been under the wrong impression.
I thought they were leaning really in that way, that is, you know, devil groups of some kind or another.
The answer clearly to that is absolutely no.
But the question is where to lean.
Yeah, exactly.
So you're the guy.
Where do we lean?
Well, you know, regarding this cult activity, I had a really interesting conversation with a law enforcement guy from Arkansas, Hope, Arkansas.
And he had a whole rash of mutilations in the late 80s.
So we're getting more and more and more law enforcement people calling us.
But what he told us was that when the mutilations really intensified around Arkansas during that period, all the cults came forward and said, look, this is not us.
These mutilations are giving us a bad name.
We are not responsible for this.
I wonder how the press in the area covered it.
The press covered it really, really well actually.
Very fairly.
How heavily did they lean on the cult aspect?
Not very heavily at all.
Amazing.
There was a lot of simultaneous lights in the sky.
In fact, there were some pretty spectacular photographs of lights zigzagging in the sky that were taken over that area of Arkansas during that period.
They leaned the opposite, away from the cult activity and towards some kind of unknown phenomena that were connected with those lights.
They were willing to actually admit that much?
Some unknown phenomena associated with the lights?
Well, they were putting the two together.
They were putting the photographs of the zig-zagging lights together with the photographs of the dead animals.
And there was, you know, there was the obvious linkage.
Well, the only other conclusion that a sane person can jump to before moving out into other country is the U.S.
military.
I believe we control our own skies, so if it would have been any military, it would have been ours, but you just cannot see, and I'm sure you've had discussions, Callum.
Why would the military need to do something like that?
Well, this particular case really caused us to look in that direction because, like I mentioned, we went through this whole The whole idea of the logistics of what it would take for a group of humans to actually do this to an animal.
And there were... We came up with over a dozen really severe logistical problems for even a special forces outfit that were trained in this whole thing of assassinations.
And we just found that there were too many problems to explain.
So we know from The microscopic examination we conducted around the animal, we know that the animal probably was not killed where it was laid.
In other words, it was laid down in a different area from where it was killed, because otherwise there would have had to been some kind of spillage on the grass.
Yeah.
So, the chances are the animal was killed elsewhere.
Now, where is that elsewhere?
That's where we drew a blank, because we, as I mentioned, we had actually employed a tracker Two quarters of the area within a mile radius of that animal and nothing was found.
No tracks, no blood, no entrails, no anything.
But we would have to conclude that the animal had been killed elsewhere and then deliberately laid back on the ground almost as a message Um, but this can, this kind of thing can happen in broad daylight with two witnesses 300 yards away who saw nothing and heard nothing.
You want to take a stab at what the message was?
I mean, um, perhaps just that, just that, uh, we can do whatever we want whenever we want and you have no control over it whatsoever.
That's a good approximation because, uh, and also combined with the visual spectacle of the overwhelming force that was used on that animal and it was definitely a visual it was definitely a visual message because there was it was quite obvious that it was unlike any of the the predator scavenger kills and it was unlike most of the other mutilations that have only very minor parts of the animal um yeah but i mean what okay again if that it really is the message then what's it meant
to to tell us is it is it a threat is it a what would be the motivation for it i mean yeah okay we can do whatever we want to you anytime uh we want without detection but what are we i mean i don't conclude anything friendly from that do you no we didn't we didn't conclude anything friendly from it at all like there was um There was a definite element of hostility in that whole act, and you could actually say the same thing in many cases.
For some of the more obvious cases of animal mutilations, we don't consider animal mutilations to be a particularly friendly act, no matter how you look at it.
Even for sampling, even if you postulate that the animal mutilation phenomenon is some form of sampling exercise conducted by parties unknown, they still leave the animals there in full view of ranchers for shock value.
Alright, very quickly, forward to 2001, the end of 2001.
In other words, we've got some recent cases here, don't we?
Well, this second case, Really caught our eye because it was so close to the case that I've just described.
It happened in November of 2001, which is only a few months ago.
Right.
Same modus operandi, black angus calf that had been born the night before.
Northern California?
Northern California.
And now remember this first case that I've just described happened in northeastern Utah, which is a long way away.
Right.
And five years previously.
Well, very briefly, the animal was found with pretty well all of the body weight gone.
The entire body cavity had been removed, exposing just the ribs and the spine.
No blood, no entrails, no nothing on the ground, except for one exception, and that is that the eye of the animal had been removed with a sharp instrument.
The left eye of the animal had been removed and placed very carefully on the ground about two or three feet away from the animal.
And the other unusual feature of this was that the snout of the animal had been cored out.
And again, there are sort of not very pleasant photographs of this on our website,
but we put these up just purely as an exercise for people in the ranching community
who might come across this kind of thing and might not want to report it.
Because these are really outlying cases.
They're not the usual types of mutilation that are reported to us at all.
They're very unusual.
Now, this eye on the grass was left intact.
It had been removed intact from the animal.
All of the fluid was intact in the eye.
And we know from our own experience that once the fluid is exposed, or the eye is exposed like this, fluid evaporates relatively quickly.
So this was a pretty fresh kill.
Right.
And the Molus Operandi really caught our eye because of the similarity with the Utah case.
Now that happened only a few months ago.
There's a third case that... Just before you go on, was the eye positioned in any particular way?
The eye was positioned looking towards the animal.
If you look at the photograph, you can actually see the direction that the eye is looking, and it's looking directly at the animal as it's lying... Oh my, you really do have detailed photographs, don't you?
Yeah, it is.
It's not very pleasant.
Be very cautious, folks, in who you allow to see these photographs.
This sounds real serious.
Yeah.
All right.
And now there's another case.
You had an even more recent case.
Yeah, an even more recent case at the end of December.
And this again happened in Northern California.
It happened just before New Year's Eve in Northern California.
About 10 miles, 10 to 15 miles away from this second case that I've just been talking about.
This was a premature 7 month old Charolais calf.
It was found by the ranchers.
Now the unusual thing about this was that the entire head of the animal had been removed.
Which is again, not the usual type of mutilation that NIDS is used to receiving.
But the extraordinary thing about this case was that the The hide had been removed very, very carefully from the head of the animal prior to the removal of the head.
In other words, it had been decapitated after the skin was removed.
And the entire skin of the head was attached to the remainder of the animal as it lay on the ground.
All right, all right.
Fast question for you.
Does any of this column, to those who know about these things, the experts you have, does any of it make sense from a research If there was some kind of sampling going on, does the forensic MO here match anything that your scientist can tell you looks like research?
Not in these three cases.
These three cases are the real outliers, and we actually hesitated in publishing them because they are so far outside the norm of what we're used to dealing with, which is Removal of an eye, removal of an ear, removal of lips or tongue, and then removal of either reproductive organs or excretory organs.
That's it.
There's not this kind of removal of the head or removal of the vast majority of the body of the animal.
So, those three cases, there's really no indication of sampling or research or anything like that.
You could always apply that explanation to the vast majority of animal mutilations.
With the caveat of why would anybody who's doing research like this leave animals on the ground for ranchers to find if it was just like a covert research exercise?
I have no answers.
Well, we know that the three cases that I've just been talking about are so different and they're so bizarre.
It is quite obvious that sharp instruments have been used.
It's quite obvious that hostile intent has been used because They're all similar in the fact that they're either newborn or they're just born calves.
Colin, this all sounds more like some kind of horrible ritualistic just killing.
I mean, I think a lot of people can wrap their heads around the possibility of whoever, even aliens, doing You know, some kind of research, some kind of environmental sampling or whatever.
I mean, there's a reason for it then.
But wrapping your head around just a horrible, horrible killing, ritualistic at that.
Yeah.
That doesn't sound good at all.
I bet you chewed it over before.
Yeah, we did.
We were we actually never published the the first case for several years because it was Well, we're still treating these as outliers.
style. And it was just these two recent cases that just came up in the last few months in
Northern California.
So what are your guys saying? Are you saying, oh, you know, we're on to something completely
new and different here?
Well we're still treating these as outliers. If we get more cases, and that's another reason
why we published them, was to see if anybody else, any law enforcement people are reporting.
We came across a case in Louisiana involving a young calf, but it was nowhere near as gruesome
as this particular tree here.
So we're publishing them for the purpose of veterinarians so that they can take a look at them and verify that this is just not predator scavenger activity we're talking about.
Number two, law enforcement.
And to encourage law enforcement people who do have these kinds of reports to come forward to us.
Cullum, what do you think the average vet, if he were to be called to a scene like the ones you've described tonight, what do you think the average vet would probably do?
How would he dispose of the case?
I would challenge most vets to explain these three cases.
Oh, no, no, no.
I'm saying if they came, the average vet, would they just sort of write this off in some weird way and walk away shaking their head?
Yeah.
Or would they report it to somebody?
It really depends on the person.
Most of the veterinarians that we're currently working with are open-minded, but we know that from experience in the past that A lot of veterinarians coming upon these kinds of cases would prefer not to pursue them.
They would prefer just to... I wonder how many... I wonder how many that's happening with, though.
That's a question we really want to know, too, because we want to know if this is just a relatively new phenomenon, or was this happening in the 1970s when the mutilations were at their peak.
Because remember, parallel with these cases, there's also standard cases of mutilation that are happening In multiple different states, including Canada, right now.
UFO sightings are also up, what, 42% they said, or something?
In Canada, yeah.
There appears to be a lot happening.
Y'all are following that, huh?
Yeah.
In the UFO front, there seems to be a lot happening.
Yeah, I had somebody tell me the other night they thought it was just because of more press coverage suddenly on this subject in Canada, or something or another.
No.
No?
We don't get that impression.
But we are beginning to see much more balanced coverage of the UFO phenomenon than there used to be.
The giggle factor seems to be really decreasing in our experience.
Well, once people are finished giggling about this, then they get real serious.
I mean, they get really worried because of what it means, or could mean, one way or the other.
You mean the UFO?
Yeah, absolutely.
In other words, Uh, if these things are beyond the control of our military, that has really significant meaning.
Uh, no matter how you, if they are from our military, that has really significant meaning.
I mean, we've got at least anti-gravitic propulsion, that sort of thing.
It's a gigantic story of the century either way.
Yeah, and you know, since 9-11, I think the skies have been so incredibly closely watched.
Yes.
Any of these cases that come in, that involve low-flying large objects, and they're still coming in, we're still getting them, then it's pretty obvious that either the radar is picking them up, And they're ours, or the radar is picking up, and they're
not ours.
Any guess? Here's what I would say.
You're right. We have a lot of fighter aircraft in the skies over the U.S.
They're spending an incredible amount of money doing it.
Yeah.
As a matter of fact, interceptors ready to go at altitude, ready to chase anything that might show up.
So, you gotta wonder.
That's right.
They can't be missing them, which would mean what?
That they know they can't catch them and don't try, or already know what they are?
It's one of those possibilities.
It's almost impossible to distinguish them.
You know, we're working a case that just came out, like, at the end of last month, which is only a few days ago.
from Lake Havasu City in Arizona and this was like two girls who were at a 3 a.m.
on the 21st of February they noticed three blinking lights up in the sky and they were just talking about them when this other object came by and suddenly came in their direction it had three oblong shaped lights on the front of the thing and as it came towards them Another oblong light joined the three to make what looked like a cross at the front.
And as it kept coming, it just got bigger and bigger and bigger.
They described this thing that went over them at about 100 feet that literally filled the sky.
You know, we went through a questionnaire that includes what does it look like, you know, with your hand outstretched.
Would it cover your thumb?
Would it cover your... Yes.
I mean, we were going through these large... Would it cover your thumb?
Would it cover a basketball?
Would it cover... And eventually they came out with, well, put a mattress up, and that's what it looked like.
Oh my God.
So this object, and this was only, like I said, last week.
Did you get them to do a drawing?
Yeah.
We're still working the case.
We just got it.
Okay.
We're working it, but it's the kind of thing that this object was, you know, at a reasonable altitude, and then it seemed it turned and seemed to notice these two people and came right down for a look.
And it went right over them.
These two girls.
Great.
The idea that an object of this size could have escaped detection Seems ludicrous.
Seems ludicrous.
Colm, we're out of time.
We need a lot more time.
We need to have you on more frequently.
Absolutely.
Well, I'd love to, actually.
All right.
Make sure, network and Colm, that we are scheduled more frequently, all right?
Okay.
All right.
Thank you very much, as always, Colm.
And the hotline number, if you need something investigated out there, folks, is area code 702.
798-1700.
Have it nearby on the fridge or whatever.
By your phone.
702 is the area code.
798-1700.
It's open right now.
Right, Colin?
Yes, it is.
Nice.
Thanks very much, Art.
It was, as always, a pleasure.
A great pleasure.
Good night.
And just not done frequently enough, so we're gonna start doing it more.
Tell him, tell her.
They've got the resources and they use them to investigate the kind of thing you're hearing about tonight.
If you have The stomach for it.
The photographic proof.
He's on the link page from Column Color.
His name on my website, artbell.com.
We'll be right back.
Oh, man, I dig it.
I'm going to open up your game.
And maybe tell you about Phaedra.
And how she gave me life.
And how she made it in.
It's a velvet mornin' when I'm straight.
Flowers growin' on our hill.
Drivin' flies and purple deers.
Learn from us, very much.
Look at us, but do not touch, for Dwarf is my name.
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This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
Well, as you heard last hour, we live in a world of very strange occurrences, and this hour is going to be no different.
Try and imagine, if you will, the will, the studying, the money, the time involved in getting a doctorate.
Imagine getting a doctorate in biophysics.
Now, this is from Pennsylvania State University by my guest, Dr. Joyce Hawks.
Try and imagine getting a doctorate and working at the top of the heap in your field in biophysics.
And then suddenly having an NDE, a near-death experience, and then dropping everything you were doing.
I'm not saying there's no relation to what she does now and what she did do, but it's a kind of a casual one, in a way.
After her NDE, and we'll find out why and get the NDE described, but for some reason, she just sort of changed direction completely.
She traveled, went to the Philippines, Bali, India, in search of indigenous healing wisdom.
This is after an NDE, this is after a PhD.
Anyway, it's a very interesting story and it's coming right up.
This should be very interesting.
Scientist by training, Dr. Joyce Hawkes, actually, received her doctorate in biophysics from the Pennsylvania State University in 1971.
As an electron micropist and cell biologist, she came to the West Coast on a National Institutes, that's NIH, postdoctoral fellowship at the Primate Center in Beaverton, Oregon.
Later, After being recruited by the National Marine Fisheries Service in Seattle, Dr. Hawks set up and supervised an electron microscopy, I can never say that, microscopy, I believe it is, research laboratory, and was recognized with a National Special Achievement Award by the Department of Commerce.
While working for NMFS from 76 through 84, the doctor published 50 scientific papers.
was elected a fellow in the American Association for the Advancement of Science for her publications on the effects of, get this now, high-speed lasers, hue-switched lasers, nanosecond pulsed on pigment cells.
She was also an adjunct professor at the University of Washington.
Now that, that's a very heavy academic A well-credentialed background, you must admit.
Somebody in that field is going to make a lot of money.
Then she had an NDE, and that changed her life direction completely, and we'll talk to her about that.
But let's begin with the work that she was doing.
Doctor, how long, how much educational, how many educational years Oh, good question.
So four years of bachelor's, two of master's, five for the PhD, three on the post-doc, and then I was a professional scientist for 15 years before all the rest of it happened.
Oh my God!
So that's a batch of years, isn't it?
That's a batch of years, yes it is.
And that's a very heavily credentialed background.
To suddenly just go and go off in a totally different direction.
Actually, you know what?
I was about to say that doesn't happen to many people, but it does happen to quite a few of the ones that I have interviewed over the years.
Now, I'll have to think about what that means.
Nevertheless, it's kind of a head shaker and people would say, boy, you know, you could be in a lab making an awful lot of money, especially these days.
And so what happened to this doctor?
So what happened to you doctor?
Well, one little comment on what you just said.
I also really loved the work.
I enjoyed working with the electron microscope.
It was truly a thrill to sit at this huge instrument that weighs a ton and peer inside of cells.
We had a wonderful lab and it was at the height of my career.
I had a crew working for me.
With traveling internationally, giving a lot of lectures and publishing.
And tell me a little bit about this laser work.
What is that?
Q-switched lasers?
Pulsed lasers?
It was really exotic.
I collaborated with a group at the Oregon Graduate Center.
They were developing a research laser for fusion reactors.
Eventually that was dropped because fusion reactors were considered to be too goofy and dangerous.
Right.
But we were able to do some work with fish and the Q-Switch laser that we used was a ruby laser that was pulsing in microseconds.
Yes.
But it was pulsing its light into a dye cell that absorbed the light until it could absorb no more and it would flash open And let the light through to a target.
Now, that flash was four or five nanoseconds pulses.
That's how you got them so short.
Now, if you're having retinal repair, that's a laser that works in a microsecond and it just welds a little burny spot and holds the retina in the back of the eye.
What were you trying to achieve with the pulse laser?
What we were looking at was how to brand fish, something kind of really pedantic.
And we were able to do that.
We were working on coho salmon, working with the pigment cells in the skin,
trying to find a way to mark them so that when they went out to the ocean and came back,
scientists, other people working on the migration of the fish,
would know where they'd been if they came back to exactly the same place.
Well, isn't that interesting?
Instead of some radio transmitter, which I think they use on whales and that sort of thing.
Right, they're hard to put in fish because they're so small when they leave fresh water.
That one's never worked on the fishies.
But what happened were almost quantum level effects in the pigment cells.
Like what?
Well, the epidermis was not burned.
There was no change whatsoever in the outer skin cells.
But the black pigment cells did not die when they absorbed the light.
But their tiny pigment granules were vaporized.
And it affected only the granules within the cells.
The cells stayed alive.
What also happened is they lost the ability to contract the granules and make the skin look blanched or
light. So they had this fully expanded pigment granule, pigment cell, which is like a
giant amoeba under the skin. So that area looked really dark. So in that way you were able
to actually put some identifying mark on them. Yeah, we were.
Well what did you do with the information about the effect on the cells?
Or did anybody care?
Well, that's actually where the people did care.
That was the research, the basic research piece that was so interesting.
That the effect on the cells was unexpected.
We were able, through biophysical principles, to calculate a heating core around each little pigment granule.
And it all got very elegant and very nice, but the cool thing was it relates to human biology.
There are microtubules inside these pigment cells, and the pigment granules roll along the microtubules.
Wait, wait.
You're getting ahead of me and probably everybody else.
I have one question.
Oh, that's all right.
I'm just going to have to stop you when you're going like crazy here.
How is it that you could affect cells beneath the epidermis without leaving any trace on the epidermis itself?
What is it about a pulsed laser that could achieve that?
The pulse was so fast.
Yes.
And the light was absorbed only in the pigment granules.
That it was not seen by those cells.
And because it was so fast, it didn't have the burning Nature that the slower lasers do so I don't understand the physics of what just leaves the the outer Skin intact.
I just it doesn't absorb it.
It has nothing in there that actually absorbs that wavelength of light.
I It's the best we could figure it out.
It was an unusual effect.
Okay, well then, these cells that lay beneath, what unusual properties do they have that did absorb that energy?
The melanin in those cells, the pigment in those cells, absorbs in that wavelength, yeah.
Wow.
But still, you know, there's still some mystery with it because the way those pigment granules were vaporized in just their tiny spot, It didn't fly the rest of the skin or the rest of the cell.
It was like an internal surgical tool right on those little tiny granules.
Where do you think research just going after the cellular effects would have led if you'd been financed and led in that direction?
Well, I gave a paper at MD Anderson Hospital and that's where we were headed with The large groups that are working on melanoma.
So there are two branches with this.
There's a pigment cell branch and being able to destroy a melanoma cell with possibly with one of these lasers.
And there's another branch with microtubules.
In the human brain, the thoughts transfer biochemically along little tiny tubules.
They're nanotubes.
You know, nanotubes are the hot thing in technology now, but cells invented them eons and eons
ago.
Nanotubes.
Yeah.
Synapse?
Are these the...
These are inside.
They're inside the nerve cell.
Inside the nerve cell.
Yeah.
And the message, the biochemical message, the fluxes of ions move along those tubes.
Now in a state of anesthesia, the tubes are disrupted and the message is not transmitted
so the person does not feel pain.
I'm...
As the anesthesia wears off, the tubes automatically reassemble and then the message moves along.
I've always wondered about this.
What is it, in what biochemical manner does anesthesia act to actually close this transmission down?
Well, the closest thinking so far is that somehow or other it is able to disassemble the microtubes, the little nanotubes, so the message can't move, it's stopped.
Wow.
Now there are probably other, because there are so many different anesthetics, there are probably other methods also, but this is one of them.
And I would imagine a very effective way, no transmission, no pain, period.
Right.
It's like cutting a wire.
That's an awfully, incredibly fascinating field of study to walk away from.
It was.
And it was thrilling.
And it was intriguing.
And I did walk away.
It's just really hard to believe.
How old were you when you walked away?
You know, I was in my late 30s.
Late 30s?
Yeah.
So yeah, you would have been right at the height of your career.
I was.
I was, as I said, traveling internationally giving papers.
I was co-chairing symposia in the field that I was in, publishing a lot.
Our lab was just cranking it out.
We were having a great time.
Have you followed your field, even though you're not technically Still working in the field.
Have you followed the incredible stuff going on right now?
I have, and every... I'm a fellow in America's Association for Advancement of Science, so I get the journal Science every week, and I open it up, and I go, wow!
We used to sit around as graduate students and argue about these things, and here's the evidence for them.
It's a really thrilling time in science.
Do you see, with everything that's going on right now, there are opportunities and there are many dangers for society?
You're touching on cloning and things like that and genetic control, I suspect.
Sure.
You bet.
They're dangerous.
And they're immediately, I mean, they're right in front of us.
This cloning thing is ratcheting out of control very quickly.
Not a night goes by that I don't have another cloning story.
If they don't do it here in the U.S., they're proceeding, believe me, at a fast pace in Europe and elsewhere.
Oh, absolutely.
It will happen in some other country if we stop it.
You know, and it is very frightening.
I don't know what to think about it.
Well, if you were in a position of authority and could set policy for this country regarding proceeding, what kind of advice would you... Let's say you're not a dictator, you're just offering advice.
What kind of advice would you give in this area to everybody?
Be extremely careful about what you decide.
We've had so many incidents of trying to suppress new knowledge and it never works.
So suppressing what we know isn't the answer.
But making really sound ethical choices about how this is going to be used must be done.
And I think that needs to include scientists, politicians, economists, Public theologians.
I mean, it's a huge question across all levels of our culture.
Well, here's tonight's story.
Dated today, new scientist.
Chinese scientists are claiming a great leap forward in human cloning.
The creation of dozens of cloned embryos advanced enough to harvest embryonic stem cells.
So, They're not stopping in China, Doctor.
They're plowing right on ahead.
Right.
And, you know, I guess the question is, can we afford not to?
It's the age-old question, I know.
Exactly.
Can we afford not to?
If other countries are going to go ahead, no matter what, ethically, morally, whatever, if they're going to plow ahead, can we afford not to?
profound question and totally important one and frustrating to scientists in the field here knowing that the research is going roaring ahead somewhere else and they're stopped while everybody's talking about it yeah exactly you know so there's so many different points of view Depending on which side of the laboratory bench you're sitting on.
Doctor, hold on.
We'll be right back.
It's the bottom of the hour.
We have only just begun.
See what's become of me.
Time, time, time. See what's become of me.
While I looked around, all my possibilities.
The haloed moon.
But you think I should be happy with your money and your name.
And hide myself in sorrow while you play your cheating game.
Silver threads and golden needles, killing men is part of my plan.
And I cannot drown my sorrow in the world full of other wives.
But you think I should be happy with your money and your name.
And hide myself in sorrow while you play your cheating game.
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This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Fell from the Kingdom of Nine.
Actually, I should read more of this story to you from the Chinese, or about the Chinese, in News Scientist, a very respected magazine, actually, dot-com news service in this case.
It's pretty... what we're doing is pretty freaky.
Chinese scientists are claiming a great leap forward in human cloning.
The creation of dozens of cloned embryos advanced enough to harvest embryonic stem cells.
Their intention is not, they say, to copy human beings, but rather to create genetically matched cells to make tissues for transplant Patients and for research the work has not yet been reported in any peer-reviewed journal But it was reported in the Wall Street Journal on Wednesday Experts familiar with the work going on say three or four other Chinese labs have made similar or even greater Unnamed strides forward another team based at Shanghai number two Medical University is
Claims to have derived stem cells from hybrid embryos composed of human cells and rabbit eggs.
We'll be, uh, right back.
Well, I know everybody jumped up and down when Dolly was cloned successfully, finally.
Not that the public got the details of what it took to get Dolly cloned, but, you know, everybody jumped up and down.
Now we have cloned cats.
I saw a pair of kittens the other day.
That we're cloned.
Thing is, there's something wrong with Dolly, right?
Doctor?
Yeah, and I'm... I'm not sure what.
I don't follow that really closely.
It seems like... Like premature aging or some really weird... Right.
Something is wrong with Dolly.
So, yeah.
We should move on the one hand slowly, but on the other hand, the nation that, I suppose, develops this Develop some sort of national advantage.
I guess we're both glad we're not the ones deciding whether to pursue anything or not.
You're right.
Alright, so anyway, here you were, deeply involved in this work and kaboom.
You had an NDE.
How did this occur?
I was cleaning house, which was a very rare phenomenon for me anyway.
I always thought it was, you know, a sign, don't do that anymore.
I had a leaded glass window.
It was a decorative one, encased in an oak frame around it.
It was on the mantle above the fireplace.
Leaded glass is really heavy.
It's really heavy.
And that thing just vaulted off and whacked me on the head.
I remember seeing it fall and I didn't bump the mantle.
There's no reason for it to fall.
It had been there for several years and never budged.
So that's always puzzled me.
And I had never heard of near-death experiences.
This was in the late 70s and there were a rash of them then.
It was just about the time Ray Moody put his first book out.
I was a scientist.
I was working hours and hours in the lab.
I had no interest in spirituality.
I had no belief in an afterlife.
That was all wonko stuff out there somewhere else.
Yeah, I understand.
So as best you're able, describe... You remember actually seeing this thing coming at you?
I remember just the glint in the corner of my eye.
Just... and I put my hands up, but it got me on the head.
I just remember falling, and all of a sudden, I was no longer in my body.
I was scooting down a long, dark tunnel, the classic tunnel, just as fast as could be.
Actually, classic tunnel's white.
It's white?
Really?
Yeah, classic tunnel's white.
You were going down a dark tunnel, huh?
Dark, but there was light at the end.
Well, okay.
That may be fairly consistent, then.
Yeah, drawn toward the light at the end, magnetically.
Very typical, then.
Yeah.
And right at the entrance, my mother and grandmother were there greeting me.
And they had been dead for some years.
They were two people that I really loved and felt known by.
Do you recall how they appeared to you, Doctor?
Did they appear as you had last seen them or of a younger age?
Younger age.
They were both middle-aged, healthy, happy.
Really?
and vibrant and communicated with me not in words but it was clear that we were connecting and conversing through our minds and do you remember specifically what was said no there it wasn't like um or what was imparted to you what was imparted is they were fine they were happy they were so happy to see me that That I was loved and whoosh then on into this other place.
But it was a recognition and everything is fine was the kind of take home message.
But then I moved from there almost through this opening and just stopped in a place that was very colorful.
I mean there were hills and Do you remember the manner of the movement?
I mean, from the point where you were with your grandparents, you began moving again.
Just, just, I mean, as in flying, as in, how would you describe the motion from point A to point, what we're trying to think of as point B?
That's a really good question.
It's almost as if I was with them and then inside.
And then just boom, inside.
Inside, yeah.
Alright, so without the sensation of time passing and actual travel, just sort of a change.
Exactly.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay, well it sounds like a sort of grandparent, Valium, you've arrived at another place, everything's going to be okay, familiar faces telling you that, or imparting that information to you, very interesting.
And then where were you?
And then I was just inside this glorious place.
The quality of it, the quality of the light, I have always puzzled about, and I, it was as if everything was lit from within itself.
The grass had this brilliance, but light was coming from it, not reflected, not reflected from it, but generated from it coming to you.
I'm sorry, the light coming from what?
Grass, the hills, the sky.
So you were in a world.
I was in a landscape of a sense, yeah.
But none you recognize.
None I recognize.
Hills and grass and light grass sort of emanating from the grass.
Right.
Alright.
Laser-like colors.
Not harsh.
Very beautiful but scintillating colors.
Do you remember a sky?
Yeah.
Like our sky?
Different?
Well, the quality of blue is more color than it was clouds or something specific.
But the color was like when I used to climb mountains and you're up above 10,000 feet, there's a quality of blue in the sky that's just gorgeous.
And it's unlike Where there's more atmosphere?
Well, at that altitude, it starts to take on almost a purple, a blue-purple.
Yes.
Yeah.
And if you get high enough, it gets black.
But that is what you remember.
You remember a world.
It seemed to be a real physical world to you?
Yeah.
You could see, could you see, did you have a sense of self?
Could you see your hands, your feet, your legs, your body?
Were you there?
Were you even noticing yourself, or were you just detached totally from the physical?
I was not noticing myself at all.
I was an observer.
I was present.
My consciousness was clearly there, but I don't recall seeing my feet or hands.
Or even being aware that you had them?
No.
Totally enthralling that, you know, I was focused completely on what was around me.
The experience, yes, okay.
And then, boom, again, this sort of shift of place and state from there to the presence of a being of light.
And in that, no features, but just incredible light and the emotions were Profound peace, incredible joy.
It was one of those places, a state of being one never wants to leave.
I did not have a life review like a lot of people do, but I had the knowing.
It was like this knowing dropped in that there were no secrets and there was no judgment.
Did you have, as we now describe it, you and I, doing this program, did you have Real time consciousness the whole time?
No.
No?
I don't think so.
In other words, you are not, you are not thinking about your experience as it was occurring to you?
Oh, no.
Considering it, the implications of it, thinking, oh, well, I'm dead.
Oh, no, not at all.
OK.
Things are moving and there's too much going on, I guess.
I know that never occurred to me over there.
Huh.
All right.
A being of light, described by many, many, many people.
Yes.
And what came from it?
Again, this incredible emotion of peace, of belonging, of oneness, of everything being as it should, of knowing, being known totally and not judged in any way.
Just profoundly, deeply loved.
I had no discussion about staying or coming back.
And bingo, all of a sudden I was back on the floor with a really sore head.
Was there any indication prior to your zapping back that you were going to be sent back?
No.
Nada?
No, not for me.
So, here you are back in your body and the pain of the real world suddenly crashes in, I'm sure.
Yep, I have a big gash on my head but the blood all over the top of my head is dry.
This was not like a two-second flash.
Oh, so how long... dry, huh?
Yeah.
Oh, my, my.
All matted and yucky and... So how long were you away?
That's been a very difficult thing for me to figure out.
The best I can guess is over an hour.
Because it was light when I was hit.
It was dark when I got back.
And, you know, I was in the evening.
So, that's unusual, and I've puzzled that for a long time.
What was that about?
I think, the way I describe it is, I think I was rewired.
Rewired?
Yeah.
Rewired.
Yeah, because it, what developed out of it, which happens to, as I understand, about a third of the people who have near-death experiences, is I truly came back with a gift for healing.
I had no knowledge of it at the time when I was laying there going, oh my goodness my head hurts.
Understanding that unfolded and developed over a number of years.
What was the first indication you had?
How did you begin to realize that you were now different?
When, what was the first indication you had, how did you begin to realize that you were now different?
I, I took a class from a man who had studied at the University of Iowa with a super learning group.
And I was trying to learn how to memorize better.
Right.
Because I was writing a lot of papers.
And so he did this little thing where you listen to a tape and he told about his little kitty and the whiskers on the kitty cat.
And as I was trying to visualize this so I could learn to memorize better, this had nothing to do with MDEs.
It was all about science.
Right.
It was as if I was walking around the place where he had recorded it.
I could see pictures on the wall.
I could see details of the chair he sat in.
I could see a two-sided fireplace.
They were not guesses.
They were so accurate.
How long a period of time between recovery from a bump on the head to what we're talking about right now was there?
Probably five or six months.
Five or six months?
Yeah, things didn't move fast for me.
The first thing that happened to me is I said, this is just, that's what happens when you get hit on the head.
You have some weird vision.
And I denied the whole thing.
I just went, yuck!
And when I was recovering, I was flat on my back for a while.
I went to a favorite bookstore in downtown Seattle and found Ray Moody's book.
I stood in an Elliott Bay bookstore and I read the entire book, rooted on the spot.
I bought it.
I mean, I didn't care.
Right.
But here were story after story after story.
And one of the things, the bylines in my lab had been, if what we're finding with our research is real, repeat it.
Let's make sure it's accurate.
Of course.
And I went, I can't run away from this experience because look at all these people who have had something similar.
So that started a lot of exploration for me, a lot of reading on consciousness studies and talking to people and the INS Group, International Association for Near-Death Studies.
I take it you were not prepared in the interest of duplication to take another shot from the leaded glass, right?
No way!
But nevertheless, you wanted to know what had happened to you and when you began to find out that what you experienced was not unique.
Yes.
That must have affected you severely.
It did and and it was a mystery and a sort of well so why me and what does this mean and I started exploring some of the local healers and took some classes and Just very slowly.
How does the initial thing you felt, that you described, how you knew everything, how does that translate to healing?
That's a knowing, that's some sort of ESP ability you just, I think, talked about.
Right.
How does that translate to healing?
It translates in being able to read the body, to see in the body.
And when I'm working, there are times when it's as if A person's body opens and I can see... Inside?
Inside.
I see the cells.
I can see clusters of cells.
I'm drawn to places where there's a problem.
And in the work that I've done with healers in other cultures, they describe the same thing.
Well, that's what Edgar Cayce did.
Right?
I don't know.
That's very interesting.
In other words, he too It's said to have had the ability to look into somebody at the cellular level and go to the area where the problems were.
He may have done it in a very different way than you do it, but the MO was the same.
That's very interesting.
I have great respect for him.
I haven't studied his material deeply, but that's very consistent with what I found with The really authentic Philippine healers and the Balinese healers.
So you went to the Philippines?
I did.
I went because I wanted to find healers in other parts of the world that were really good and I'd heard about psychic surgery.
I was just curious.
I want to talk a little bit about that.
Some of the surgery that's going on in the Philippines.
Most Americans, many Americans have seen, I think, the video on these news shows of Filipino doctors that are shown to be actually, unbelievably, I mean, they reach into their bodies.
We're not talking about surgery with scalpel, we're talking about a hand going into a body.
Is that baloney?
Well, I don't know.
The healer I ran into over there was not a psychic surgeon and I worked with him for two and a half months.
The reason he wasn't was because he fainted at the sight of blood.
But you could feel things moving around inside your body when he worked on you.
He was a very, very gifted healer.
And I heard lots of stories about psychic surgery so I'm not one, I'm not an authority in any way on it.
What I know is, well, what I was told by Filipinos is that there are some other psychic surgeons that truly do that actually, have the ability to reach inside.
And there are others who roll stuff up in their hands and Years ago.
So there are fraud?
There are frauds and they were tested and they used chicken blood and all this other stuff, but I think there's some that are not.
That are not frauds?
Yeah.
Okay, hold on, hold it right there.
We're gonna break at the top of the hour.
My guest is Dr. Joyce Hawkes, who had an NDE, walked away from microbiology, and we'll tell you more in a moment.
I walk in town on silver spurs, the jingled tune.
A song that I had only sang to just a few.
She saw my silver spurs and said, let's pass some time.
And I will give to you Some more wine
Crying on the corner Waiting in the rain
I swear I'll never ever wait again You gave me your word
Words for you are lies Strolling in my wildest dreams
I never thought I'd go But it's time to let you know
I'm gonna harden my heart I'm gonna swallow my tears
I'm gonna turn and sleep you here All of my life I've been waiting in the rain
I've been waiting for a feeling that never To reach Artvel in the Kingdom of Nigh, from West of the
Rockies, dial 1- East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
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This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
It is indeed.
Dr. Joyce Hawks is my guest.
She proceeded from a very hard line scientific career as a Cellular microbiologist to an NDE to healing.
That's what we're talking about.
We'll get right back to it.
Alright, doctor, so you went racing around the world, studying healers, psychic healers
and healers of varying sorts because you had concluded that you had the gift.
Yourself that had occurred as a result of the NDE or some rewiring of your brain.
That's a good way to put it I've talked to an awful lot of people who have had what you've had and They have never quite put it the same way, but they the people I've talked to for the most part have come back with all kinds of abilities some of which doctor began to fade after a number of years and They were very intense immediately following the NDE, but then began to sort of fade.
Obviously, in your case, that's not occurred, perhaps even the opposite.
It's true.
The opposites happen.
They've grown.
The gifts really have grown in the years, and part of that has been my own practice.
I do a lot of meditation, a lot of walking in the woods and sitting by mountain streams Which are real renewal places for me and seeking internally that universal connection, presence.
There are times I imagine I just kind of walk back over there and it's certainly not like it was in the NDE, but the connection has never failed.
Okay.
Oh, what is it?
That you actually are able to do it.
Now, at the beginning of the program, I said there would be a casual relationship between your scientific work and what you're now able to do in the world of healing.
Actually, there could be more than just a casual relationship.
Being a cellular biologist, I would guess that if you're actually able to be inside a person in a sense, diagnosing it or treating them in some way, With your mind, then it would be far easier for you to imagine the actual physical aspects of what you're doing, but I'm just guessing at that.
No, you're right on.
I am?
You're absolutely true.
Really?
Okay.
What are you able to do, Doctor?
Straight out, what can you do?
Let me read you just a very short few sentences from a book that was published about some
work that I did.
This was published in the year 2000 by Melvin Morse.
Oh, Melvin Morse, all right.
It's his book, Where God Lives.
Yes.
This is a quote directly from it.
Mel says, I have seen and heard the success stories of many of Dr. Hawk's patients, but
the example I want to use here is a personal one, that of a friend, Sue Volence.
And I'm skipping some sentences down.
That's fine.
She had been injured and was dying and was in a wheelchair, had not been able to walk.
Why was she dying?
The trauma caused a form of nerve damage called Reflex Neuromuscular Dystrophy, RND, and she was not getting better and apparently Mal felt that she was dying.
I didn't know that.
He says, I convinced her to fly to Seattle to meet with Dr. Hawks.
Sue flew out to see me, as open-minded as always, and I took her to see Dr. Hawks.
The healer had Sue lie down and quickly moved her hands over her body about three to five inches from the surface of her skin.
She immediately identified a cold spot on the area of Sue's original injury.
Ever the skeptical scientist, I had not told Dr. Hawks the nature of Sue's problem.
I wanted to see for myself if she could detect damage to the nervous system, which she did.
She then spent an hour using her body as a conduit, opening healing channels to bring energy into Sue's body.
For the first time in four years, Sue began to walk.
She had not walked for four years before seeing Dr. Hawks and walked after seeing her.
Oh, my.
All right, let's back up a little bit.
In his description of what you did, when you move your hands over somebody, what are you feeling?
What are you sensing?
Can you put words to what you're feeling?
I can try.
There are so many things that happen all at once that It's like being in a quantum state, I think, where you get this sudden chunk of information.
Give us your best shot, though, of what you feel.
What I feel first is where energy is flowing and where it's not flowing.
And I think that wherever energy is blocked in a person's body, there's going to be some kind of physical problem or disease.
And most of Chinese medicine and acupuncture is based on that.
theorem that energy has got to move and flow through the body. Right. So the first thing I do is I check to see
where are the blockages.
Once I know that or sense that and I feel it as heat or cold or as sluggish or
moving fast then I just... Or moving fast. Yeah sometimes energy will be it's almost like it's leaking.
Okay, so in other words, a disruption in what you would regard as the normal flow of energy in any of those ways.
Right.
Okay.
Alright.
And a part of that is learning quickly what is the energy flow of that individual.
Almost the language of their body.
Because... You mean what is normal for them?
That's right.
People are different.
And I don't believe in a system where I'm trying to impose a template of the energy should flow this way, but trying to listen to what is their normal flow and then helping support that, working from their strengths and clearing wherever they're blocked.
When you're in the middle of this process and Your patients are queried about what they feel.
What do they say they feel, if anything?
They usually do.
They don't always.
I mean, the responses are all so different, which is one of the things that makes it interesting.
But people feel immediately trusting, usually.
They immediately feel relaxed.
They say, oh man, I haven't felt this relaxed in years.
They feel tingling in their body.
Sometimes they'll feel heat.
Sometimes their bodies will just get really hot.
But there's like a response of the nervous system that records it as this kind of shivery tingle and they'll feel it all the way down their body.
Which is a good feedback that things are moving.
And that's how I viewed it.
And you think this is totally separate and distinct from whatever anticipation they had in coming to you.
In other words, they're probably anticipating something unusual happening to them.
They're going to a healer.
It's a last resort for a lot of people or...
You know, I mean, after all, a lot of people do not believe in this.
You certainly once did not.
You're right.
So a lot of people don't believe in it, and I would think would do it only as a complete last resort.
Right?
Right.
So they have some anticipation about what's going to occur.
There are those who would say it's the placebo effect, to which you would say what?
Well...
If placebo effects actually help their health and get somebody out of a wheelchair, then yay for placebo effects.
Well, that's true.
You know, not every healing is effective.
There are times when nothing happens, and there are times when just a teeny bit happens, and then there are times when something quite spectacular happens, where a tumor measurably goes from large to itsy-bitsy or goes away.
There's a woman that had a blood disease and needed transfusions every four months or so and this had gone on for several years.
She was working with a hematologist in Seattle and came to me.
We worked three or four times.
I got There are times when there's clearing and then there's information about the body that comes up.
There was some information about an injury, a surgery she had had, and we worked on clearing that and then worked deeply at the cell level.
There's another stage beyond the clearing where it feels like I'm drawn very deep into the body to the cells, almost like bringing information of normal behavior, which I believe is in there all the time, to the cells.
And bingo!
Her body started producing blood cells and she no longer needed transfusions.
She kept going back to the doctor to be checked for another year.
And finally he said, you don't need to come back anymore.
And she said... Did he have any explanation for what... No.
None.
None.
He had told her that she was going to be needing transfusions the rest of her life.
So, but he must have said something.
I mean, from you're going to need transfusions for the rest of your life to, oh my gosh, you're okay now.
I don't need to see you anymore or six months checkups or whatever.
In other words, healed.
The doctor's got to say something.
He did.
It was really cool.
He finally said, you don't need to come back anymore, even for checkups.
She said, well, but he said, if you don't feel good, go see your healer first.
Did he really?
He did.
In other words, he had no other earthly explanation for what had occurred.
When you go to somebody with a tumor, cancer, horrible cancer, how do you attack that tumor?
What I work with a person on is harmony and balance in the body, coming back to balanced cells that are not overgrowing.
doing what it, well cancer is out of control growth. So how do you stop that?
Great question. What I work with a person on is harmony and balance in the body. Coming
back to balanced cells that are not over growing. There's nothing different in the chemistry
of the cell that's going crazy than one that's normal. What's different is the regulation
of that cell. So it's about putting information into the cell and asking, one of the things
I suggest for people in visualizing is just asking those cells to recycle their carbon,
nitrogen, hydrogen and oxygen.
Let the body come back again to balance and harmony.
I don't do little Pac-Man eating up bad cells.
The macrophages, which are one of the cells in the body that clean up debris, do come in and clean up the stuff, like after chemotherapy.
Right.
But I work, I like to see this work and myself and other healers as team members, as part of a team, helping people regain their health.
So their oncologist is a team member, the The chemotherapy nurse is a team member.
The radiation oncologist is a team member.
And this brings one more piece to help them.
It does not stand alone.
Well, what is your view of the way an oncologist would normally aggressively treat a cancer, a tumor, or something of that sort?
I mean, after all, they're going to go after it with probably From your perspective, a claw hammer.
That's right.
I mean, they're either irradiation or blunderbuss chemicals that, you know, it's always like a race to see if it kills the person or the cancer first, right?
That's true, absolutely true.
Yeah, so it takes you right down to the line with a kind of treatment.
How do you really feel about that?
I mean, you say you're working on a team, but when you look at the results of the oncologist, As opposed to what you're doing.
I don't see how you can be on that team.
Well, it's like with a broken bone.
Sometimes you have to set the bone and put a cast on it.
And I think some of the best of Western medicine truly, truly saves lives.
You know, I guess I'm at a point where I just accept that Sometimes these tumors are big enough and aggressive enough that some strong measures need to be taken to back them off.
Stronger and stronger than you are capable of producing.
That's right.
And then I can work with a person to help them recover more quickly from chemotherapy to restore the body again to balance so that tumors don't recur.
And I would never ask somebody to not do chemotherapy.
I go to hospitals, I work with people there, and I work with this tool.
Maybe in the future there'll be something more sophisticated.
But right now, it's almost that we need that big mallet.
Well, that's the only mallet we've got at the moment, yes.
We're working on other things, and of course the genetic sciences will open up.
Probably the cure for cancer, eventually.
Eventually, yes.
Eventually, but right now we just have those mallets, so yes.
I was just wondering how somebody who does what you do would be on that team, and you have explained that.
That's very interesting.
But there have been cases where you have been the only active treatment, essentially, going on, right?
When you were aborged?
Someone was diagnosed in between the time of diagnosis and a biopsy for example.
We did a lot of work and tumors either reduced hugely or went away.
I've also worked with some people who on their own absolutely chose not to do chemotherapy and I'm very uncomfortable with that.
You are very uncomfortable?
Yeah, I very seldom do that.
But if that's their choice, I will work with them.
I just don't want people to have unrealistic expectations.
And in that, not take treatment in a timely manner that could help them.
I mean, there's still a scientist lurking in here, in me, you know?
Yes.
Yes.
Tell me of the cases where you have done work without the assistance of regular physicians.
How have they come out?
One was a gentleman who was diagnosed with prostate cancer and he was doing a number of things including naturopathy, supplements.
I don't know all of the things and I was one of the people helping and doing energy work with him.
A lot of unblocking of energy flow for him and we've probably worked, I would guess, maybe six sessions.
Alright, you've got to stay good and close to your phone.
And the results of the man, what happened?
PSA went back to normal.
Absolutely no evidence of tumor anymore.
I see.
Alright, hold on doctor.
That's uh... That's really interesting.
Now I know she would never say don't go to a doctor.
But I had a feeling there were cases like that.
Get a shiver in the dark, it's raining in the park, meantime
Sound of the river, you stop and you hold everything We'll be right back
A band is blowing, Dixie, double fall time You feel alright when you...
Smiling down the spiral, there's a vision unknown Double-crossed messenger, all alone.
Can't get no connection, can't get through.
Where are you?
Well, the night is heavy on this guilty mind.
This far from the borderline When the headman comes
He knows damn well he has been cheated Have you heard?
How am I feeling through this white-eyed sorrow?
This is the madhouse, this feels like home My weakness and the love I never asked for
Where am I to go now that I've fallen so far?
How am I feeling through this white-eyed sorrow?
This is the madhouse, this feels like home Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye
From west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255 East of the Rockies 1-800-825-5033
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This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
When the bullet hits bones, definite cellular changes immediately occur.
When whatever it is Joyce, Dr. Joyce Hawks has, hits the bone, cellular changes occur as well.
We'll talk more with her in a moment.
All right, once again back to Dr. Joyce Hawkes.
There were two motion pictures, doctor, that affected me really deeply.
And I'm not sure if I properly remember the name of the first.
It was with Ellen Burstyn.
I bet you've seen it.
At least I would hope you have.
It was called Resurrection, I think.
I have.
You have seen that, yes.
Remarkable movie.
Yeah.
You recall in that movie, for the drama, I guess, or maybe it is real, She was in a small town and the people who saw her do what she did were pretty much fundamentalist religious people who demanded of her that she say that the power that she was conduiting or using came from God.
And she couldn't do that.
And that resulted in great grief for herself and others.
She could not bring herself to say that.
What about you?
That's not a problem for me.
I view it as God, but not in a religious sense.
The work I've done with healers all over the world in very different religions have a sense of the divine, of the creator, of an energy that's in the universe larger than themselves.
However it's named, it's bigger than me.
It's not just energy, energy, but I feel it's a level of consciousness.
Now, it may turn out to be something that we can describe in quantum mechanics.
I don't know.
But the experience I've had on what I call the other side had such an emotional impact.
It was so profound.
That I can't say, I know it doesn't just generate out of me.
I can tell when I'm close to, when I'm really centered in a state of healing energy, I can feel it move in my body.
My body changes too.
Alright, well here's a fairly profound question for you.
You can heal somebody.
Could you harm somebody?
Could you use the very same power you have to harm somebody, to do cellular damage, to do something to somebody that would result in, you know, eventually ill health or even quickly ill health?
What is your opinion?
I assume you haven't tried it.
No, I haven't.
But would your opinion be that power could be used either way or only for healing?
That's a great question.
I try.
Yeah.
Logically, I must answer, it could be used either way.
In Bali I've seen, I was at a temple once and there was a man there who I could see the energy around him and I said to him, are you a Balian?
I don't know.
and he got this funny look on his face and he said, oh yeah, but I'm a certain kind.
You don't like this person and I do a spell and you like them a lot.
So there are traditions in other cultures, I don't, there probably are some here too,
where people do misuse that energy.
Just like everything else in life.
Everything else in life.
We sit in this wonderful place of having choice.
Do you know when you've done something or when you're above a patient and your hands are moving,
do you know when you've failed?
Thank you.
Or is that only in the telling of the patient and the results?
In other words, do you have a sense as you're doing it whether you are succeeding or not?
I usually do.
And it's not 100%.
There have been times when I thought, I just didn't do a thing.
What did I miss?
And then I find out three or four days later this person has had a really spectacular healing.
The healing does not always happen immediately.
It continues in the person for at least three or four days.
So when I'm working with someone new I often ask them to kind of back off of an assessment and give it a little bit of time.
What do other doctors now say to you?
I mean, when you tell them what you do and what happened to you and what you're able to do now, what do your old colleagues say?
Some of them say, you're just, you know, You've gone sort of off the deep end and others became clients of mine.
Became clients?
Yes.
Others came to me for healing and others just said, you know, that's goofy stuff.
But I've been doing healing work full time for 18 years now.
I've been out of the lab for quite a while.
There doesn't seem to be any sense to most people who acquire this ability.
I give you the second motion picture.
One that actually caused me to cry, and I don't cry at movies, is The Green Mile.
Oh yeah.
Yeah, The Green Mile.
Oh God, what a movie.
In that case, a condemned prisoner who had the power to heal.
And there just doesn't seem to be any sense.
In his case, it was interesting because His brain was probably wired a little differently from the get-go.
And you mentioned that's how you acquired that power.
You think something essentially got rewired in your brain.
So I make that analogy.
In other words, his brain was already wired.
He'd had that power apparently all his life, as many healers have.
Right, come right in with it.
And you just acquired yours late life, and as a scientist,
how did you personally begin to reconcile this?
I guess the NDE helped you a lot, but still, as a scientist,
you must know that there's no rational explanation for what you're able to do.
And it's been a real struggle.
I mean, there were times early on when I thought, what am I doing this for?
Why?
I should still be doing science.
And I and I have always looked for what is the evidence?
Is this real?
What is what's happening?
And I still struggle with what could be happening at a cell level to explain this.
Yeah, that's kind of fun.
I mean, there's new material.
Just last year, Scientific American did a whole issue on nanotechnology.
And one of the articles included something about the nanosphere and biology.
That the cell is the right size and has the right speed of reactions.
Yes.
To be a quantum field.
Quantum effects occur in the cell as well as macro effects.
And in quantum effects there's no time and space.
We cancel those out so we're in connection with the tremendous energy of the universe.
Are you aware of any of the work that has been going on ongoing now for a number of years at Princeton University?
No.
With people being able to Affect random number generators with their mind.
They've been doing a lot of studies at Princeton.
Yeah, and Dean Radin has done some of that.
Oh, you know Dean Radin, do you?
Yeah.
We're co-presenters at a meeting at Albuquerque.
Really interested in listening to his work.
Yes, yes.
Dean Radin helped conduct a very interesting experiment for this program some months ago.
In which we were able, this audience was able massively to affect some graphs that Dean Radin provided.
Amazing, amazing stuff.
We've done a number of experiments and so clearly in my mind there exists scientific evidence that the mind has power over something perhaps at the quantum level.
Yeah.
Anna, I wonder if some of that research might back up some of what you are able to do and the way you do it.
I think so.
I think that's the place to look because, for example, the pancreas doesn't heal.
It has no ability to do that.
The cells of the pancreas heal.
A human body has 70 trillion cells.
That's a lot of cells.
All starting from one.
And they all work together pretty well, which is just astonishing.
So if you're affecting something in the body to heal, you must ultimately affect the cells.
And since the cells have the flux of both quantum and macro effects, it just, I mean, that to me just fits for energies that human beings can generate or can transmit to be able to affect cells for healing.
It just seems that Given the power, you would be particularly adept at this with the understanding of cellular biology that you had going into this.
You would be a particularly interesting candidate to acquire this, I guess we'll call it a power.
What do you call it?
A gift.
It is a power, I think, and it's a gift.
I think part of my job, Art, is Making the bridge now at this point in my life between the cell level studies and the healing work.
I am a decent healer.
I mean there are lots of healers out there.
Right.
But for some reason I stand between these two worlds still.
And I hope my contribution can be to give some kind of support or rationality or ideas that people can test so
that this kind of healing becomes available to people who need it.
Not through necessarily having to go to a healer but finding a way to do this for themselves
or integrating it in our medical practices so that there is a spiritual dimension and
component that people can access.
What about bringing it mainstream?
In other words, what about using the scientific method of repetition to document, even if it's only by percentage, a sufficient number of healings, inexplicable healings, to bring it into mainstream?
Yeah, and people are doing that.
You know, Carol Hirschberg's book, Remarkable Recovery, is just a huge number of case histories that the Institute of Noetic Sciences collected when Brendan O'Regan was there.
And so there's a ton of data that's well documented on this.
The fact that it works, I think, is pretty solid.
Now we need to be at some place where someone can say, how can we test this to find out where the effects are?
You tell me, since you were the scientist and still are, how can we test this doctor?
I almost think it needs a non-human system at this point, like a cell, a culture system, so that there's no psychology in the middle of it.
What happens to the cells when Say you grow cancer cells and you have healers work on the cancer cells.
Look at the biochemical changes.
Look at the electron microscopy.
Is there a structural change in the cell?
That would be one very, very good approach.
In other words, Petri dish level.
Petri dish level.
You're separating it from the human being and the psychological effects and the possibility of placebo and all the rest of it.
And you get out of this constant argument about Just exactly what you said.
Procedural effect, prison psychology and so on.
Do you know whether any of that has been done yet or is being done?
You know there are places where it's starting.
NIH is funding some of this research now.
Well now there's a surprise.
Yeah, they added an office of alternative medicine and now it's become an institute.
My understanding is in the last year they've begun to look at funding some studies somewhere, and I don't know where they are exactly, in energy work.
In the past they've been funding efficacy of acupuncture and Chinese herbs, things that have already a pretty good history.
There's a group at the Cleveland Clinic that Dr. Joan Fox had That is doing some of this research.
So there's little places tucked around where some of it's going.
And it's one of those things where funding is one of the issues.
Who's sticking their neck out to fund some of this work?
Right.
Who is?
Do you know?
Well, right.
There's some, as I said from NIH, some Cleveland Clinic is supporting There are little hints of it at the Science and Consciousness meeting where Dean Radin was.
So there's some private work going on in the public sector.
And it's exciting.
Would it be your view that if there is a quantum level effect that one person in concentration Uh, would be as much as one million people in concentration?
Uh, or, or trying to heal?
In other words, would, would there be a collective effect, do you believe?
Or, do you believe the power channels as easily through one as a million?
Ooh.
Ooh, that's fun.
Um, Elizabeth Tard did a study.
Russell Tard's daughter.
Yes.
I think they were cardiac patients recovering and she had large groups of people in all different religions and cultures and around the world praying for these people.
That's right.
It was a really good double blind study.
I mean clean as a whistle.
And the effects were significant.
Their recovery time, their feeling about their health and their recovery time.
We're much improved with these groups.
I think it was a very impressive statistic.
Yeah.
Very impressive.
Yeah.
And other people have done that with smaller groups or only one say one religious point of view and not gotten as significant a data point.
So that indicated to me there's some evidence that larger groups of people sending healing are more effective.
I've also been in the presence of some other really incredibly connected gifted healers and they knock you over practically.
I was listening to the tape you ran from Red Elk and his stories about being able to move into a levitated state and I was just jumping up and down going, yeah, there are people who can do that.
You believe there are?
Oh yeah.
I want to ask you a little bit about, I notice you, I don't see a book you've written.
Have you written a book?
I'm working on a book and I've been working on it for about four or five years.
Four or five years, okay.
And I keep sending it out and it keeps getting rejected and it's really frustrating and I am still writing and it's better now than it was before and I'm right in the middle of that process.
I'm trying, again, to put this together, that it's useful to people.
Okay, so now, how do you handle it?
I mean, you've got to have people talk to people.
Everybody knows somebody who's got cancer or some disabling disease, and there must be people beating down your door.
Not quite literally, but beating down your door, more or less, trying to get you to help.
How do you decide when to help?
I have had a philosophy all these years, and this has been the way I state it.
I just ask, may the people I can actually help find me.
And I've never advertised.
This is the most outlandish thing I've ever done.
Going on national radio?
National radio.
And so over the years... It's liable to bring an outlandish response, too.
And I don't know how you're going to handle that.
I don't either.
Okay, stay right where you are.
We'll come right back, and I'd like you to answer a few questions of the audience, if you would not mind, would you?
I'd be happy to.
Okay.
I have no way of knowing what they will ask.
I never do.
But we've got an authentic healer on our hands.
Somebody who can really make a tumor go away.
Somebody who can correct a nervous system deficiency, that sort of thing.
That's what she says.
She is Dr. Joyce Hawkes.
I'm Art Bell.
From the high desert, you're listening to Coast to Coast AM.
This is a test.
This is a test.
♪ He was so lean upon me As I pledged allegiance to the wall. ♪
♪ Lord, I recall my little town Coming home after school.
♪ ♪ Flying my bike past the gates of the factories. ♪
you you
Come on, I'm doing the laundry.
Hanging our shirts in the dirty breeze.
And after it rains, there's a rainbow.
And all of the colors are black.
It's not that the colors aren't there.
It's just imagination they lack.
Everything's the same back in my little town, my little town.
To reach Artbeld in the Kingdom of Nigh, from west of the Rockies, dial 1.
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1-800-825-5033. First time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222 or use the wildcard line
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This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
If you have any questions for a real healer in this case, Dr. Joyce Hawks, now would be a good time.
Good morning, everybody.
It's an unusual opportunity.
Imagine it.
Somebody who was... Who is a PhD in microbiology.
Biophysics.
Imagine that.
Suddenly walking away and doing her healing the way she does it.
Absolutely incredible.
We'll get right back to her.
Alright, back now to Dr. Joyce Fox.
And, Doctor, this is a moment when you're going to have to think about what you're going to do next.
I'm going to ask you for any contact information you have in the way of phone numbers or email address or snail mail address or whatever you would like to give out or not give out.
People can reach me through my website.
All right.
Which has just kind of gotten put together.
It's Joyce Hawkes, all one word, H-A-W-K-E-S dot com.
And there's an email link to my email.
There's also phone number and address of my office on that website.
Okay, let me just make sure that we've got this on my, a link on my website.
And the answer is, we do.
We've got a link to your website right now.
So people can go there and there will be plenty of contact information, email and phone numbers and all the rest of it, right?
Exactly.
Okay, how does doing a healing affect you?
You may recall in the Green Mile in Resurrection There were effects on these people.
They were effectively drained of energy when they did healings.
Really drained.
In some cases, taking on the symptoms of those they healed for a period of time.
Is there anything like that in your case?
Or can you just go down an assembly line and heal and heal and heal without apparent effect on yourself?
No, I can't.
And I have experience taking on people's symptoms.
In fact, early on I got quite ill doing that.
Really?
And I finally said, well, if I'm going to be doing this when I'm 80, we've got to learn to do something different.
So I learned how to, after each session, completely clear myself.
What I say in my mind to the person as they're leaving is, don't say it out loud, I just say, I trust you to continue the healing work and I ask that the hand of God hold you.
And then I come back to myself and just, I use an image of a spiral of light around my body, completely clear myself.
And I wait until I am clear before I start again.
So I don't carry anything over and so that I'm renewed myself because I really don't want to fry all my circuits before the time is up.
So, in the beginning, before you learned this, how sick did you actually get?
Oh, I got... People have weak spots in their bodies.
Right.
You know?
One system or another.
And mine's my chest.
It was my dad's spot, too.
And so I got really bad bronchitis.
I could not kick.
And probably it was a pneumonia.
And I was apprenticing with a healer at the time.
He did a healing for me and he was just furious with me.
He said I had, I don't know, 18 different disease things going on and yada, yada, yada.
It was frightening because I've always had a pretty healthy body and I wasn't just getting over this that I had.
So, I mean, it really caught me up short and said, okay, there has to be a different way.
I teach a lot of other healers now.
I do class work and so it's one of the things I really address, how to keep oneself clear
and safe in doing the work.
Okay, just thought I would ask.
Interesting answer.
East of the Rockies, you are on the air with Dr. Joyce Hawks.
Hi.
Hi Joyce, my name is Rich.
I'm calling from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania and I hope the noise in the background doesn't
affect you hearing me, okay?
I can hear you.
Okay, um, my question was, I have a friend...
He's got Huntington's disease.
It's a genetic disease.
And I had known him for, oh, 25, 30 years almost.
And I saw his mother die of this.
And it just, like, withers him away.
And I guess, uh, there was three boys in the family.
Two of them have gotten this, and the other one got, got away with not having any effects from it.
Um, but the one boy died already.
Fairly young and the other one.
He's about my age.
I'm like 42 and he's still hanging in there, but You know how does this affect that genetically?
The way I look at that is in the collective consciousness if you will the information or Normal nerve function is present and And if there's some way he can connect with that, almost to re-inform the cells of his body, he may be able to help himself.
It's a tough one.
Genetic diseases are some of the very most difficult ones because they are obviously coded in the DNA or miscoded in the DNA of that person.
Right, like it kicks in at a certain age, at least it did with the two boys.
Right.
Like they were fine all the way growing up until they were in their 20s and then they started exhibiting some signs of it first mentally and then you know started to affect them physically.
And now the one guy that's, my friend's still alive, he's got a daughter that's like 14 and you know there's a 50-50 chance she's going to come down with it and they had you know talked about You know, what's going to happen, you know?
Now is it easier to take something like that if she would have it also?
Because it hasn't started to exhibit yet?
Yes.
Yes, I would imagine so.
In other words, Doctor, can you, do you think you could affect somebody's genetic predisposition to a disease?
It's certainly possible and it's about information in the body and altering that.
So yes, it's theoretically possible.
Well DNA is the instructive information to your body about what to do and when to do it, right?
Yep.
So that's getting into a very interesting area as well.
It is.
It is.
And even more difficult, probably, or perhaps not, to prove.
I was about to say more difficult to prove because somebody ends up not getting something.
Well, you say, well, fine, they didn't get it.
You didn't have anything to do with it.
But I suppose with the science of genetics, that would be something they could concretely say, look, the genetic code here has changed.
This is not possible.
It's impossible.
Right.
Short of what you do.
Right.
The situation with the daughter, without a lot of really sophisticated testing, you wouldn't know whether she just didn't have it or if it was actually healed in her.
The bottom line is, whatever is done, one hopes that this young woman does not get it.
Period.
Sure, but you know, for the sake of the world, If what you do and others like you do is real, then we must strive to prove it.
And I suppose a fairly complex genetic study and then an effect that you might have and then another genetic study would go a long way, wouldn't it, toward proving that what you're doing deserves to be mainstream and available to all kinds of people with terrible illnesses And it would be if there was some scientific proof.
Right.
All right.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Joyce Hawks.
Hi.
Yeah, Vartan, Dr. Hawks.
Yes, sir.
I had a comment and a question following that.
All right.
The comment was pertaining to a fast blast you had earlier, asking if Dr. Hawks thought she could possibly also have the power to do harm as well as good.
Well, I asked that, and I think you heard the answer.
Right, but I was, you know, the comment actually was, I know Edgar Cayce, you made a connection with him earlier also, you know, it seems like people that have this gift go through an epiphany of some sort.
Right.
Cayce had his, and I know he fretted for years, thinking that possibly he wasn't doing God's work, you know, it could have been Satan who was, you know, The one that was coming through him, Casey being a very, you know, devout Christian.
Oh, yes.
And just my personal feeling is, just as Casey had fretted, you know, so much over the fact that if you do choose to do harm this way, probably your power to heal, you know, would be eliminated.
Well, I don't know.
I mean, if you heard our discussion, we simply, I think, agreed That it is a power.
So with you having free will, if you want to look at it that way, I suppose you could have an epiphany halfway through being a bad guy and start to heal.
Right.
So the power could be used really either way in all probability.
Well, that's the same thing.
I was thinking that if you were using it to actually be a healer and heal people of whatever disease they may have, that if you choose to actually use it for harm, you'd probably go the other direction too.
The other piece of this is that my experience of doing the work has continued to change me.
I have become a more compassionate, loving person.
I've become a more spiritual person in doing the work.
My life isn't static in that way and so the choices that I make now are towards the healing.
I can't conceive of trying to misuse this or harm someone.
When we talk about theoretically, yeah, it could be used one way or another, but there
is a process where you become more confident that you will make the choices that will help
people because you are changing inside.
Have you ever heard Gordon Michael Scullion's story?
No.
He is an interesting fellow who was a businessman, a very, very important businessman.
And he got up to speak in front of a bunch of people who were going to invest millions of dollars based on what he was about to say.
And something happened and he lost his voice.
I mean, his voice totally went away.
Ambulances came screaming and took him to the hospital.
He had what I guess you would almost call an NDE.
He saw a lot of geometric shapes and colors.
I began to get the ability to do what you do to diagnose and heal people except Gordon still to this day has not learned and Gordon would verify this I'm sure if he was here right now he hasn't learned to handle it and it makes him not well it gives him horrible headaches it it actually produces times when He will just sort of break away from everybody for six months.
He'll go off and be away from everybody somewhere in the woods, you know, a nice cabin somewhere in the woods, and he'll just isolate himself because he just can't stand that much close contact and knowledge.
Wow.
But that didn't happen to you.
Somehow you've learned to handle it.
I run off to the woods every other weekend.
I don't let it build.
Yes.
So, yeah.
I mean, there is a management of this.
Okay.
First time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Hawks.
Hi.
Hi, Dr. Hawks.
My name's Cory.
I'm calling from Birmingham, Alabama.
Cory, you're going to have to speak up good and loud for us.
All right.
I'm sorry.
My name's Cory.
I'm calling from Birmingham, Alabama.
I was wondering if you had ever worked with any HIV patients or had dealt with any HIV patients that you had actually, you know, helped maybe raise their T-cells or even get rid of the disease.
I have worked with them a lot of men earlier on you know ten years ago and I was able to slow the disease down not to reverse it but to almost stop the viruses so that was one part of it with with people who were not full-blown AIDS The other part of the work that I did was helping many people cross over.
I am not afraid of death, and I am called from time to time to be with people who are dying.
All right, but let's go back to the T cell counts.
If somebody has not yet come down with full-blown AIDS, and certainly 10 years ago, they would measure, if I recall correctly, they'd measure the amount of virus in the blood, right?
Right, the titers, yes.
What kind of actual effects could you produce?
I don't have any hard data on that.
I did work with people who felt better, got better, sustained their health for a longer period of time, but no one that was cured was not able to help anybody get a complete cure.
Hmm.
Any ideas why that was particularly problematic?
As opposed to, you know, going after cancer cells or whatever.
You know, there's something about that particular virus and its ability to constantly mutate.
It's like chasing, chasing something that just I guess the kids would say morphs all the time so that that it was different every time and finding a way to to move the virus out so it no longer had an effect and then to build the body back up I mean those were two directions to work with build a body back up stop the virus
So you were after a moving target just like the scientists that are actually after the virus?
Exactly.
Biologically?
Yeah.
Okay, gotcha.
Wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Joyce Hawkes.
Hi.
Hi, good morning Art, Dr. Hawkes.
This is Mark from Melbourne, Australia.
And I've got a question to ask about... You're calling from Melbourne, Australia on my wildcard line?
Yep.
Okay.
Wow.
Alright, fine.
I've got a question.
I've been doing this almost all my life and I'm close to 60.
In the last couple of years, what's been happening with me is that I've actually, like in my mind's eye, been seeing the internals of people's problems in their particular organs.
It doesn't matter what it is.
I've actually seen it down on a cellular level.
Some information that kind of intuitively came to me was that basically the energy is
like light, but that light is like binary information on a cellular level, and what
it's attempting to do is to create a kind of a kind of a kind of a kind of a kind of
to do is to bring harmony and balance back in to that individual at all levels, but specifically
at a cellular level.
My question is, as you've been going on, have things been changing in you where you've been
seeing more detail or knowing more about it?
Okay, that's a really good question.
I'm going to go ahead and disconnect you and not hold you over since you're in Australia.
We will ask the question about detail and whether the resolution has been improving
as this gift has been exercised.
Very, very good question.
We'll do that after the bottom of the hour break.
I'm Art Bell.
Well, this is Coast to Coast AM from the high desert, in a little town called Garuffalo.
This is the Coast to Coast AM.
And this is the Coast to Coast AM.
And this is the Coast to Coast AM.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
To reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nile.
It certainly is.
We've got a healer on the line, Dr. Joyce Hawkes.
Absolutely a fascinating case.
She was a scientist, hardcore scientist.
Had an MDE, came out of it and months later began to heal.
Went around the world, looked at other healers, looked at what was being done, and is now doing her own work.
Amazing stuff.
There are things in our world that we cannot yet explain.
That does not mean they are not so.
It just really means we cannot yet explain them.
Just a little preview for you because my back blew me out for the last couple of days.
Tomorrow night we've moved Major Ed Dames to tomorrow night and we will be touching on things tomorrow night like the source of the mystery rash, the origin of the fossilized tooth that was taken from the core sample, a designated designated terrorist target on US mainland soil, the nature of collective consciousness A psychokinetic PK effect that, with Dean Radin's help, we showed to be true.
A Project Starman update, Osama Bin Laden's present whereabouts, that sort of thing, all tomorrow night here on Coast.
Right now, it's back to our guest.
Doctor?
Lots of people would like to speak with you, but I just I did want to I'll cover quickly that man's question.
I thought it a pretty good one.
In other words, with your background, as the gift has progressed with you, have you been able to work and see in a more detailed fashion as you have developed the gift?
Is it something that continues to be honed?
Yes, it is.
It develops all the time.
There's two components to that, I believe.
One is with experience.
You see the same two dots and you go, okay, we'll connect these two again.
I know those dots.
So there's a learning that says, uh-huh, and so you're much quicker at working with that particular situation.
But there's also a process of deepening as one continues one's own work and meditation, contemplation, whatever you want to call it, so that That a healer develops and deepens all the time.
Alright, back to the lines.
First time caller line.
You're on the air with Dr. Hawks.
Hi.
Hey Art.
Hey Joyce.
Hi.
Hey, my name is Terry.
I'm a police officer in Southern California listening to KFI 640.
Yes sir.
Just something hit me when you guys were talking earlier.
You know Joyce, you say when you heal these people and you kind of get these symptoms sometimes.
Do you ever worry about working with an HIV person that you could contract the disease?
Yeah.
Good question.
No, I don't because I really pay attention to clearing my body at all levels energetically after I do a healing.
And what drives that is the desire to continue this gift as long as I can be of help.
Yeah, because I was just thinking since there's no cure, And you contract it?
What do you do?
Well, the answer is, I think, that she does not contract it.
But I wonder, Doctor, early in your... And by the way, police officers are in real danger every day working with the public of contracting that disease.
But early in your career, could you have made that tragic mistake?
Could that happen to a healer?
In other words, the gift is there.
They don't yet even begin to know how to control it and they encounter somebody with something as serious as HIV and their own immune system becomes compromised in the process.
You know, it's certainly possible.
And the most natural healing technique there is, is to take someone else's stuff on.
We are empathic in that sense.
There are lots of teachings in our culture about not doing that.
Taking, you know, having boundaries so that you don't take someone else's illness in.
But in the Tibetan tradition, the ancient Tibetan texts teach their healers to consciously take someone else's pain or illness.
They believe that they build in their meditation so much light and energy in their heart space that whatever illness or disease comes in is then transformed.
Gotcha.
So it calls each of us to take care of ourselves.
Gotcha.
All right.
Wildcard Line, you are on the air with Dr. Joyce Hawks.
Hi.
Hi, this is Dick from Cleveland.
Okay.
You're going to have to speak up.
Another wonderful cell phone connection, I can tell.
Sorry.
Sorry.
That's all right.
Doctor, I was just wondering if you work on Psychological problems and or alcoholism or drug addiction.
Interesting.
Very interesting actually.
Doctor.
Good question.
Yeah, you work on so far we've only talked really about the physical.
Physical ailments of all sorts, but yeah, what about psychological?
After all, that's also.
Some sort of cellular difficulty, right?
Exactly.
I do work with psychological problems.
I am trained as a counselor and registered as one and have done quite a bit of training in that realm so that I'm somewhat savvy with disorders that I know I can't touch, I can't work with and others that I can.
I have a number of psychologists that refer to me so what I often do is work in tandem with them.
So they're working with someone coming out of a trauma, for example, and they're doing traditional talk psychotherapy.
A person comes to me and I do energy work with it.
What we see is that people get well much faster.
The work helps depression.
It helps move people from post-traumatic stress syndrome.
With addictions, I will not work with anybody who is Um, actively using.
I ask them to go to treatment and then come for help or to be... Why?
I just, it doesn't work.
I haven't been able to help them come out of the addiction without other help.
So I ask them to either do AA or go to treatment.
And then come to you.
And then let me help them stabilize so that they're...
They can, it really helps them move away from it but it doesn't seem to stop it and that's only me.
I mean there's lots of healers with lots of different abilities and gifts.
Mine, I have, there's certain things that that seem to work really well and other things that I'm not as effective with.
Can you name the things that you are particularly effective with?
I'm particularly effective with arthritis, with inflammatory disease, with I'm very effective with MS, with detoxing people and with the cancers.
So a lot of the physical and the non-physical or the more psychological behavioral things.
I'm quite effective with depression, helping people move out of that.
Ease to the Rockies.
You are on the air with Dr. Joyce Hawkes.
Hello.
Hi Art, how are you doing?
Okay, sir.
Hi Joyce, it's Joe from Boston.
Hi.
Hi Joyce.
Art, a comment and a question.
Joyce, I am blind and I cannot get to your website, so if you'd be kind to give your contact information, I'd appreciate it.
Do you help cats, animals with cancer, and people that have suffered years of mental abuse and have memory problems and fear and can't do much and have been estranged?
Because a lot of people don't believe in these healers because some of them are outrageous in their prices.
The ones that are really true don't charge for people that don't have it and charge for the people that have it.
That's the way it should be.
Alright, good question.
Questions, I guess.
Have you ever attempted healings with animals?
Yes.
You have?
I have.
I have some great animal stories.
Let me give you a really quick one.
Sure.
Somebody brought a dog to me that was a shepherd wolf cross.
It was a one person dog and he had a heart murmur and it was serious enough they were going to have to put him down.
Well at that time where my office was I couldn't bring him in the office because I had people who had severe allergies.
So I would go out and get in the back seat of this person's car and work on this dog.
Now this, I love dogs and I have two of my own, but this one was really big and he really had big teeth.
And he just eyed me and he was not like real friendly about all of this.
So I talked to him, put my hand on his chest, worked for just a little bit and then he just sat there for a while and then he growled.
He went, so I said, okay, thank you very much, goodbye.
She brought him back probably three or four times and then he got friendly.
He'd wag his tail and I'd do my stuff and he would He would allow me to work a little bit longer, but there was always a point where he ended the session.
He came back to the vet and there was absolutely no sign of heart murmur in this dog.
He lived a full, complete life.
Wow.
And he was friendly.
When I, you know, I got to see him from time to time, he, he would wag his tail and come up and lick me.
It was just so cool.
How do you think that dog knew that Enough had been done, or that it wasn't going to allow anymore, or that... I would think enough had been done, or that the right thing had been done, and that was enough.
I know.
I don't know how they know, but they know.
And little kids are that way.
I've often... I've worked with small children.
I've worked in neonatal nurseries.
I've worked in trauma units when a child has been severely injured.
And, man, there's just a... They just hook it up like little sponges, and then there's a point where it's...
It is enough and boy you know it and you just stop.
Isn't that interesting?
That's really interesting.
Animals and little children.
That's really interesting.
I have no idea what it means.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Hawks.
Hello.
Hi, this is Joe in San Diego.
I can't believe I got through, I didn't think it would be so easy.
I couldn't believe it.
And your back by the way, I could tell there was something wrong with your back when you
were talking with Richard C. Hoagland.
I said to my friend, I said, Art's not feeling good.
I could tell.
Sorry about that, Art.
I hope it feels better.
I love your show.
But let me get to my question.
I'm Joe in San Diego and I'm also legally blind.
I guess he was fully blind, which is kind of an interesting coincidence.
My question is, my mother's got a whole bunch of symptoms like connective tissue disorder,
autoimmune problems.
She's got the fibromyalgia, and I was wondering if you've worked with people who have these complexes, where they have many different syndromes?
Yes, and that's one where healers are often very effective, because the body is turned against itself.
Reversing that so the body is no longer misreading its own tissue is in the realm of stuff that's really possible and it does help those conditions.
So definitely worthwhile to have her check out your website, huh?
Yes, or find a local healer down there.
If she wants to write me, I'll see if I can find someone on site for her.
I'd be happy to work with her if she wants to do that.
Might be really good for her.
I'm curious about something.
Doctor, how is one to discern a real healer from the frauds?
Yeah.
How do you do that?
Can you do it?
Well, you know, I do two things.
I would sort of check them out with the sort of feeling state, what their energy is like, and I would also inquire of people that If they had helped, I would be asking others what their experience was.
But that's really hard.
It is really hard.
If I was intent on being a fraudulent healer, I'd be sure to have some people lined up for testimonials.
I don't know how you would do it.
There's no national registry of healers, is there?
Or is there?
No, there isn't in this country.
There is in Great Britain.
But not here?
But not here.
It's something I've thought of for a long time and actually thought of seeing if the folks in Great Britain would help us out over here to do that because they have a training system, they have a testing system, and a code of ethics.
No kidding?
They do, yeah.
They have a testing system?
Uh-huh.
How roughly does that work?
Do you know?
I really don't know.
I've just looked at their literature.
I've not been able to go over there or to actually talk with them about all the details of it.
How interesting the British would embrace it to that degree.
And they work in hospitals.
They're connected with their allopathic system much more so than here.
Right.
It's just our Western values.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Joyce Hawks.
Hello.
Hi Art, this is Adam.
I'm calling from Peoria, Illinois.
Yes, sir.
I was wondering if you or your guests were familiar with a martial arts system called Ryukyu Kenpo.
Ryukyu?
It sounds like the Ryukyu Islands.
Does that come from Okinawa?
I'm really not sure.
I'm not actually in the system, but a friend of mine is, and their system is based on the
body's energy and applying that to different pressure points and things of that nature.
And I heard your guest earlier say something about that when she first started healing
people that she would get very ill and things like this.
And I just wanted to inform her that if she would look into this martial arts system,
they have several different video tapes and things like this that will teach you how to
not only build your energy and use it for, like I said, this is a martial arts system,
so they use it for self-defense quite a bit.
I'd almost bet money it comes from the Ryukyu Islands.
All right.
Had you heard of that doctor?
Not that particular one but the working with chi or with ki is common to many of the martial arts systems and it is again the flow of energy and clearing of energy through the body which I learned a different way but yeah it works.
It certainly works.
All right, first time caller line.
You're on the air with Dr. Joyce Hawks.
Hi.
Hi, this is Joan from Omaha, Nebraska.
Hello, Joan.
Yay for the women!
Right on, International Women's Day.
Dr. Hawks, first of all, I wanted to thank you for who you are.
I'm a little nervous, so please excuse me.
I have epilepsy, and other than the obvious negative effects of having grand mal seizures, The disorder has brought some gifts of a higher consciousness, a sensitivity to things that are somewhat unseen, and an ability to help people connect with their spirits.
I don't want to lose those gifts, but at the same time, the drugs they give me to control my grand mal seizures are really heavy, and I know they're harming my body.
Especially my brain and my liver.
I'm not sure how to deal with the epilepsy and still do what I know I'm supposed to be doing.
Keep the gift.
Any ideas?
I'm sure there is a way to do that.
I would guess the epilepsy has opened an awareness of the gift, but it isn't linked to it.
So if you can separate the two and now, you know, You sort of are, I hear a gratefulness about the epilepsy that has opened this awareness.
Well, I got really close in the last year to, well, my mom told me it wasn't time.
I got really close to losing my physical being and it taught me a lot.
Sure.
And I'm grateful for that too.
It opened up a whole new ballgame.
So it was a gateway.
And a gateway is something you pass through that you don't have to keep, but what you do keep is the knowledge and the insights that you gained.
So what I'm saying is that I think you can separate the two so that you won't lose the sensitivity and healing gifts that you have, regardless of what you do around the epilepsy.
How about that?
Does that make sense?
Yeah, it does.
Which means I could live without the medication.
Possibly.
I don't think I heard that.
No, I wouldn't advise you not to.
No, no, I'm not silly enough to just jump into that one.
Yeah, my dear.
Now that is not to say there might not be some application in what the doctor does for what ails you.
Well, that's what I was thinking.
Doctor, how about that kind of thing, epilepsy?
Grandma's seizures that everything that goes with it.
Is there any help for that in what you do?
I have helped people with that condition, but not to the point of being completely off of medication.
We've helped ameliorate it, but not cure it.
Okay.
Well, what an absolute pleasure it has been to have you on the air tonight.
Everybody can go to my website.
There's a link to the doctor's website, and you're going to get a lot of email, doctor, so I guess you better get set.
Thank you so much.
I have really enjoyed the evening.
Well, I will be interested to find out how you handle this kind of public exposure and the amount of response you're going to get.
Thank you, doctor.
Thank you.
Good night.
That's Dr. Joyce Hawkes.
And from the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
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