Art Bell welcomes Richard C. Hoagland, former NASA advisor, who reveals a $60M 2003 nuclear propulsion initiative for Mars missions, citing efficiency and radiation shielding while hinting at military uses like particle beam weapons. Dr. Edward Tenner explores unintended tech consequences—sawmill safety guards causing accidents, football helmets enabling rougher play—before Bell pivots to callers’ bizarre claims: a cloned "perfect soldier" defense, static-electricity-induced electronics failures, and a silent rectangular UFO near Roswell. Hoagland’s hydrogen propulsion theory and Tenner’s systemic tech risks underscore humanity’s struggle with both alien mysteries and self-inflicted technological paradoxes. [Automatically generated summary]
Looking quickly at the headlines, alleging he was trained by Al-Qaeda and then conspired with a television to kill American John Walker, was indicted on 10 charges by a federal grand jury today, could spend life in prison.
Congress dug forcefully into the Enron debacle today with a second speed-up for Kenneth Way, the former chairman of the energy trading firm.
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So it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.
Governors and state legislators are weighing whether to clamp down on the public's access to government documents and meetings.
Driven by worries that terrorists could use the information plan attacks or escape capture, those proposals have dismayed open government advocates in the media who warn that sweeping, such a sweeping approach, are they crazy, would block a key element of democratic society.
Yeah, that's right, public scrutiny of government.
You know, last night, for example, when we had Linda Montenhow on and company, and we heard about the nuclear reactors, you know, obviously two or three people fast-blasted me.
If the enemy doesn't know where our nuclear reactors are and what the weaknesses are, gee, let's see, which seems more important?
That the public be able to inquire into these things and call attention to them before disasters occur?
Or that we not tell terrorists something they already know?
Hmm, let's weigh these two.
The public's right to know, the public's right to question certain practices of the government versus the terrorists might hear it and gain some knowledge.
You know, we can go too far.
We can go too far.
And when we begin to approach things like this, we are going too far.
Somebody better stop that one quickly.
I guess I'm an open government advocate for the most part.
Sun lamps may double cancer risk.
Well, how about that?
Tanning lamps can double the risk of some common types of skin cancer, particularly for the young.
According to researchers who suggest that tanning salons should be closed to minors.
In a study to appear tomorrow in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute, researchers found that people who use tanning devices were 1.5 to 2.5 times more likely to have common types of skin cancer.
Very, very, very interesting.
I have some incredible stories for you, but I'm going to hold them because we've got a special little surprise coming up for you in a moment.
Some of you may have already guessed just by my suggesting it has to do with Mars.
And in the category of radio, that's the CC radio.
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Yes, you're spending a bunch of money.
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Hell yes.
It's AM, and the AM on this radio is so good that if you don't live near a station carrying the program, it doesn't make a doggone bit of difference because you can hear stations from all over the country.
In fact, that's part of the fun.
It's now got an AM antenna connection on the back, and I recommend that you put about 60 feet of wire.
You know, you can buy it at Radio Shack or anywhere out the window with an insulator.
They're getting harder to find at Radio Shack, by the way.
Unless you buy their little pre-made-up kit with an insulator, and then you tie it to the tree.
And I'm telling you, you will hear the world.
And you'll certainly hear this program on a great multitude of radio stations from whatever distance.
It's really worth it.
Then it's not just AM, it's FM and pretty doggone good at that.
Television audio, which you're going to love, and weather, NOAA weather, NOAA Weather Alert operates on batteries for just it goes and goes and goes 250 hours on one set of batteries or you can plug it into the wall.
It's got everything you could want and more.
It is the radio.
If you want one, if you're ready to finally make the move, the number is 1-800-5228863.
That's in the morning, beginning at about 6.30 in the morning, 1-800-5228863 or on the website at ccradio.com.
Now, if you crave youth, and a lot of people crave youth, then although you know what, actually you were a lot dumber when you were younger.
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Now, suppose you could begin to get younger and not dumber.
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Everything you associate with youth begins to occur physically.
We'll include a $20 value book free of charge telling you all about what's going on.
The regimen is about $33 a month.
Others would sell it for about $100 a month, and we include the book, so it's a good deal.
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And now a one-time advisor to NASA, advisor to Walter C. Cronkite, Angstrom Science Award winner, and budding movie mogul from the mountains of New Mexico, Richard C. Hoagland.
Well, two more dots have appeared on our radar screen as part of the pattern.
A few days ago, the president, as part of the 2003 budget, which as you know is published every year at this time, announced a revitalization of NASA's nuclear electric program.
Now, you may not remember, and I'm sure a lot of the audience don't remember, that about 10 years ago, NASA did have a nuclear reactor program for powering things in space.
And it was headquartered at NASA Lewis, which is the center, the NASA center that I was invited to give Solonia briefings at three times running several years ago.
And you can do that by the proper containerization.
And you do a lot of testing on the ground, and you smash these things, and you drop them out of airplanes, and you run locomotives into them, and you make sure that when they get smashed, they don't break.
And then you assemble them in orbit so that you only fire them up once they're up there.
And so a few days ago when Bush made this announcement as part of the budgets process, I'm looking at this nuclear electric thing and I'm saying, this is very curious because the NASA center that I was invited to speak was the center that was secretly developing this previous NASA nuclear reactor for power in space.
It was the same center that Congressman Wolpe, the Democrat from Michigan, found about a decade ago, was writing memos to its employees on how to lie, cheat, and steal on FOIA requests.
How to lie to the Congress, how to lie to the public, how to lie to the press.
And they came from the director's office of NASA Lewis.
So I kind of put these things together and I say, well, what would you need a nuclear reactor that you were lying to Congress about at a key NASA center that Hoagland has invited to talk about the Mars stuff, based on Mars, Sidonia, pyramids, and all that.
President Bush Sr. fired him as soon as he announced, as Trulli announced he was going to investigate why one of the directors of one of his centers was basically committing federal crimes by sending out memos telling his employees, NASA employees, how to cheat on these official requests for information.
By the way, didn't you just have a news item on FOIA and how they're going to try to change it?
I know it's kind of, this is, you know, when you have a war, you inevitably walk over the line in trying to protect people, and they're walking over it right now.
And that's why you have, you know, various branches of government and various competing groups, and you have a discussion.
And hopefully fainter heads will prevail.
Anyway, Truly was fired by Bush, and Dan Golden was brought in as the AMASA administrator, who had 30 years, get this 30 years of experience at TRW before NASA running black programs.
We were saying back then, you know, this is not a very good idea because this is going to mean that NASA is going secret.
Well, we had all kinds of weird stuff happening in NASA.
We had missions failing.
We had cameras that wouldn't work.
We had people who couldn't add and count in the English or metric system.
All that stuff, right?
We had pictures taken in secret that we had to force into the open vis-a-vis this program.
And then in January, we get an administration, a NASA administrator saying, well, we're not going to make it number three on the priority list of this new mission we just put into orbit.
What changed between May and December?
Between May and January, actually?
The answer is the president appointed a new NASA administrator.
Because not only is Bush going now for nuclear electric power in space, but he has now announced, as of the budget process yesterday, that they're going for nuclear reactors for propulsion, for rockets, which means you can take an expedition to Mars.
Richard, if we had nuclear propulsion, and I understand it's possible, how much difference in speed and acceleration and ability to get to Mars would there be?
So the nuclear parts would always forever after stay in space.
But if you were to, you know, use a cheap fuel, let's say hydrogen, for a nuclear rocket from this end, carry it up, you know, as water, when you get to Mars, of course, you can refuel.
Because you've got tons of stuff there.
In fact, Mars Odyssey has now found, even in this preliminary first few days in the mapping orbit, it's finding there appears to be tons of water, megatons of water, all over Mars, just under the dust.
Well, I was saying what the situation was 10 years ago.
What is going on now is that we don't yet have the CARA.
In other words, in this current budget situation, you know, with the war and all that and other priorities, they can't come right out and say, I don't think we're going to go to Mars with men and women.
There has not been that key reason yet.
That's where the obviously retargeting and prioritization of Sidonia comes in.
Because the way this is ultimately going to work, I think, and I think my colleagues would agree, is that you find something incredibly important on Mars, you've got to send men and women to go find out about.
But of course, you wouldn't have any way to get there.
And what I've said to the guys I work with, you know, people like Mike Baer and Ken Johnston and others, I've said, look, at some point, we've got to get pregnant.
At some point, there has got to be a set of dots you can connect that all you have to do is kind of, in this extended metaphor, light the match, and the whole thing goes up.
But you've got to have your pieces on the board.
You've got to have the reason to go, and you have to have the means to go.
And the means to go is nuclear.
We have had a nuclear power program for NASA for almost 30 years.
We had one.
It was not far from you at a place in Nevada called Jackass Flats.
Yeah, there are no treaties forbidding nuclear power for propulsion and peaceful scientific exploration.
There are treaties forbidding the blowing up of little A-bombs in space to which we, well, I mean, this administration doesn't seem to mind treaties much.
Look what they've done with the SDI treaty.
So if they wanted to reinvent Orion, remember the Orion program?
Which was a, well, Orion was basically to propel a mission to Mars using contained nuclear explosions.
Not just a nuclear rocket, but a put, put, put, put, putt behind the pusher plate that would accelerate you, and like a million tons could go to and from Mars.
Now, there are people that would obviously freak out at the idea of banging, you know, fission bombs in space to propel big spaceships.
Well, you'd have a, well, actually, when I first heard it, you know, I was astonished somebody even could conceive of this, but I actually have talked with Dr. Taylor, who invented the concept, Edmund Dyson.
We've got to take a break here at the bottom of the air.
I understand it works.
I'm asking about the radiation for the occupants of the spacecraft.
Mars dead ahead in our sight.
Maybe.
Nuclear power in space?
Maybe.
And by the way, we're going to find out this family all about what happened to Representative Kucinich.
Kucinich?
Kucinich, I believe it's Kucinich.
That's the one.
Remember, he was going to stop all those space beams and all kinds of things, including chemtrails listed, and then all of a sudden he changed his bill.
We'll find out what happened there in a moment.
By the way, in the next half hour, Dr. Edward Kenner and Dr. Tenner, and his book is Why Things Bite Back, Technology and the Revenge of Unintended Consequences.
This should be very interesting.
All right, back to the putt-puttmobile for a moment.
I understand, Richard, that it works, that you could take conventional explosives and prove that it works.
Which means with a ship of this design, you could carry, one, hell of a lot of shielding.
So in fact, the calculation said that you would get less exposure radiation-wise riding at the front of this thing than you would riding in an airplane over Denver.
Well, I am trying to arrange, through sources, some of which I can divulge tonight, the interview between you and the representative right on this era.
Well, but I think that it would, we will find out.
Let me just say that that door is open.
It's not closed yet.
And we will find out, and you will obviously know sooner than anybody else.
The information I have tonight that I can talk about is that the reason the bill was rewritten is basically because folks like you and I went and talked about it a great deal and alerted the opposition to what was basically hidden in the definition section of the bill.
What Kucinich was trying to do, as I understand it, was to basically put this bill through with all of these other items, you know, mind control and space beam weapons and chemtrails and all that, as part of what's called the definition section, which would have made it part of the law if the bill actually passed.
And when the emails started flying back and forth on the internet about the existence of the bill, and people went to Thomas Register and actually read all of it, including the definition section, that's when the opposition raised their head and said, over our dead bodies.
So what the congressman has done is to rewrite the bill, focusing more narrowly on the conventional concept of weapons in space, weaponization of space.
All right, so we will see, and I can understand, I suppose, about Chemtrails not being a part of anything space-based or in-space, that I suppose makes sense.
All right, well, anyway, Richard, so you think we're going to the moon or going to go to the moon?
Well, because I was always told that a Mars base would be the ideal place from which to launch a moon base would be the ideal place to launch a Mars mission.
You then have to climb back out of that gravity field to go to Mars?
No, it's much easier to launch directly from the Earth.
Much easier.
You know, assembling it in orbit and then going.
that the moon is not even part of the equation.
The only reason that Yes.
The reason he did that was pure politics.
Because instead of going to Mars direct, he was trying to create what some of the opponents of the concept would call the battle star galactica approach, where you involve everything in the kitchen sink and NASA wound up costing it out at half a trillion dollars.
Whereas if you go to Mars direct, as Zubrin keeps talking about, you can go for a few billion.
Let's say under what it costs to do Apollo, which was $20 billion back then, maybe $40 billion in $2002.
So, no, it's much cheaper and more efficient to go to Mars directly.
Well, the current nuclear systems initiative, which is what NASA's calling this new nuclear program, is envisioning nuclear electric, which means you have a big reactor which basically generates electricity.
Because the real way to do all this, boys and girls, is to scrap all this primitive technology, nukes included, and go directly to hyperdimensional generators.
The kind of stuff that we know is being worked on in some black budget tonight somewhere in this government.
How do we know that?
Because of the thing that floated over you in Nevada.
And get us there safely and without environmental problems and all that.
I mean, there will be people kicking and screaming about, oh, you're putting nuclear stuff in space.
Well, that's where it belongs, everybody.
The key problem, as you pointed out earlier, is getting it there safely.
And there are ways to do that.
I mean, this society, this technology does all kinds of other things that are important, and you balance risk and benefit.
Well, to me, the benefit to this planet, this civilization, of confirming what's on Mars, who lived there, what they left for us, the libraries, the technology, the secrets, the biology, the understanding of the human condition, the perspective on a galactic encyclopedia, if something like that exists.
I mean, there is no way to balance that against the minuscule risk involved in getting there, even the way Bush is intending to do it.
Richard, about Mars, how much chance is there you're wrong?
All the way around, that there was not a civilization there, ever, that there were never living Martians, that nobody ever intentionally built, Martian or not, a face and other structures on Mars, that you're just all wrong.
That Mars is a dead, never has-been-occupied planet.
Well, you know, if it was only me, I would have to really kind of think about that, maybe not even give you an answer tonight, you know, on the next show or something.
But given that in the last 10 years, an enormous group of anomalists, people out there that know who they are, you know, who are kind of part of this far-flung family of people looking at all these images and asking odd questions of NASA, have come to the same independent conclusions, including my old friend Arthur Clark.
Remember, Arthur, before this mission was launched, kept saying there's life on Mars.
And the day they launched this mission, he sent that email to the manager at Lockheed Martin saying, go find the artifacts.
Wink, wink, wink.
So, no, my certainty on that there is something waiting for us that is mind-blowing, which of course is at the core of the film that I'm writing, is probably 99.99%.
I'm able to add all the little things I wanted all those years, and it just didn't quite click, and now it's clicked, and we've got all the neat things.
And of course, there's also the current edition of Monuments of Mars, the 2001 edition, which is now out there.
And I don't want to leave the air tonight before reminding people that if they want a copy of the book, signed by yours truly, to kind of get some perspective on this whole problem before the you-know-what hits the rotating receptacle, they can get it from an 800 number,
and the folks over there are so nice that if they, if people will call up and order the tapes, you know, my briefings at NASA Lewis, my briefings at the UN, they will throw the 2001 edition of Monuments in, signed by me, for free.
And I want to thank everybody who, by the way, has sent all those faxes in to be a part of this film thing at RKL.
Aren't the most extraordinary Americans and others have responded?
we have got resumes we've got offers for help people who will you know do anything to be part of this people who have stunning credentials people who have expertise people who are just If you had to guess, Richard, about when this movie might appear on the silver screen, what would you guess?
The normal process for something of this magnitude, to do it right, is at least a couple years.
Technology wants the revenge of unintended consequences.
We've all lived with those all our life, right?
Unintended consequences stay right there.
It certainly is.
There's something I've noticed over the years to be an absolute truth, and it may or may not have to do with what my guest is going to talk about tonight, but I thought I'd relate it to you anyway.
I don't know how many of you are technological nuts the way I am, but you know, I'm radio all the way.
I mean, we own a radio station now.
I've got ham radio, which has been wrapped around me all my life.
Every form of technology you can imagine, I'm the baby.
You know, I'm the guinea pig.
I'll try it first, whatever it is, as you well know.
And having so much technology around me, computers everywhere, I mean everywhere, I've really learned this lesson.
I have learned that technology does bite back.
And inevitably for me, it always bites back on Friday night or Saturday morning.
Now, this would be a time when any tech support is not available, when parts are not available, and of course, then comes Sunday when even the local radio shack is not open, in our case here, and it's impossible to get parts.
So in other words, not only does technology bite back, but it seems to know when to bite back, which has always bothered me a lot.
I mean, there's more truth in this than I could ever impart to you.
I have had so many things fail going into the weekend when you cannot possibly do anything about it, that I should have kept a list.
Hundreds of things, actually.
So, Dr. Tenner has indeed written When Things Bite Back, Technology and the Revenge of Unintended Consequences.
I expect it's deeper than what I just related to you, but we'll see.
Dr. Tenner received the A.B. from Princeton, the Ph.D. from the University of Chicago as a science editor at Princeton University Press.
He published works of Richard Feynman and Primo Levy, among others, as an independent writer.
Since 91, he's received fellowships of the Guggenheim Foundation and the Woodrow Wilson Center for Scholars, has been a visiting scholar at Rutgers and the Institute for Advanced Study and a contributor to the New York Times, U.S. News, Wilson Quarterly, and other publications.
He now has a visiting position at the Princeton English Department.
Why Things Bite Back has been translated into German, Japanese, Portuguese, Italian, and Chinese, twice, once in Taiwan and once in Shanghai.
Now, if things universally bite back, And apparently they do, or there would not be all these translations, then it must be some sort of universal law.
Did you hear what I said just before the commercials, before introducing you about me and electronics?
And I don't know if that falls under the category of what you've been talking about or not, but I have noticed that failures occur at the absolute most inappropriate times, generally on Friday or Saturday, when fixing whatever has gone wrong becomes totally impossible.
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Yes, absolutely.
In fact, my computer failed while I was writing the book.
First of all, what this effect itself is and a reason for it?
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The reason I suggested in the book is that the technology that we have and that we've had since the mid-19th century is different from all other technology in human history.
Not that it's necessarily more sophisticated, because some of the old technology could be extremely sophisticated.
I saw, for example, in the museum very recently some cloth that was woven out of cotton by the Incas, and it was finer cloth than has ever been made since.
Nobody knows how to make cloth that fine.
So people in the past have been, technologically, very sophisticated.
But our technology is different because it consists of systems.
And whenever you have a system with lots of parts interacting, you introduce possibilities of things going wrong that are almost impossible to diagnose.
You write in your book that safety programs frequently promote new kinds of accidents.
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Yes, it's a feature of safety technology that people will change their behavior as a result of having it.
In one case early in the century, a case that was reported by Franz Kafta no less when he was an insurance inspector, there was a series of accidents in the sawmills of Bohemia and present-day Czech Republic.
And the reason was that the sawmill owners had installed guards in the sawmills at his physical process.
Yeah, we've tried to make several connections here without a great deal of luck.
All right, anyway, so Sawmillie, I can imagine there would be a place where you would make lots of safety regulations unless your employees cut off limbs.
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And what happened was that the chips would accumulate under this protective hood, and the workers would think that the blade had been turned off, but actually it had just been stopped by the chips.
So there were terrible injuries that happened when they were trying to clean out these protective hoods over the blades.
And there are also many cases, not in every case, but in many cases, when people start taking greater risks when they have a safety system.
For instance, anti-lock brakes.
In just about every country where this has been studied, anti-lock brakes have resulted in higher accident rates among the drivers who've had them.
But still, the central core, central thing that you write about is unintended consequences, the revenge, you call it revenge.
That's a very strong word.
The revenge of unintended consequences.
That almost implies some sort of intellectual decision on the part of whatever it is, whatever piece of technology you're trying to manipulate to get you.
unidentified
I'm not suggesting that it actually has a will like that, only that it often seems as though it does.
I don't know Franz Kafka at all, his connection to technological tragedies.
unidentified
Well, I just mentioned him because his novels really are not about technology, but he was somebody who certainly had, as a novelist, had a great sense of the dark side of life.
And people often talk about the Tafka-esque, the being trapped in the jaws of the state.
And so it really fascinated me to see that he had an earlier career as an insurance inspector.
And his connection to technological tragedies, in other words, because he was an insurance inspector?
unidentified
Yes, as an insurance inspector, he went to the mills and factories and other establishments that his company was insuring, and he was, it was, of course, in their financial interest to, quite apart from any humanitarian considerations, to be sure that there were no unnecessary risks.
Why did Rancho Santave, now best known as the last home of the Heavens Gate movement, and I remember them well, fail in its original existence as a eucalyptus farm for railroad ties?
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Yes, that is how it was founded.
And there was a movement around the turn of the century to grow eucalyptus for the railroads.
And the reason was that eucalyptus is an extremely fast-growing tree.
And it seemed to be a great material for railroad times, which at that time, since the railroads were still expanding, was a critical resource.
I don't know how many million trees were killed to build the railroads.
We think of them as environmentally benign, but in their time they were very widely criticized for their environmental effects.
And the eucalyptus wood was thought to be the wood of the future.
But it turns out that there was a very strange thing about eucalyptus wood, which is that in its native Australian habitat, the eucalyptus tree is regulated in its growth by insects and other organisms that live off the young tree.
And it grows more slowly there than it grows in North America where it doesn't have these critters around.
And you would think that that would make it even better.
You could grow more trees faster, but it doesn't work that way.
The reason is that the grain of the eucalyptus tree is almost optimized for the rate of growth in Australia.
When you plant it where you don't have those insects, it grows too fast.
And so the grain becomes very, very difficult to work.
You can't really saw it very well.
It is not dimensionally stable.
It really won't last as a railroad tie.
And so they had to do something else there, and they decided to develop it residentially.
You can grow, there are lots of eucalyptus trees in the United States, especially in California, and they are beautiful trees, but they have two problems.
The first is, as timber, their structure is really strange.
This was discovered only in 1949 when an Australian forester published a monograph about the subject.
That's the first problem.
The second problem, which has been discovered in the Berkeley and Oakland area a number of times, is that eucalyptus trees propagate by burning.
Eucalyptus trees love fire.
They can actually spread their seeds in their native habitat only in a fire, or they can spread them best in a fire.
And so, if you have a lot of eucalyptus trees and you are not very careful about trimming them and eliminating underbrush, you have combustible materials for terrible fires.
The number one item that interests me beyond all reason is time travel, as you know.
And we're going to try to get Scott Kralis, who apparently translated the following press release that you're about to hear that just rivets me.
Listen to this, Moscow, from Anza ANSA.
In third millennium Russia, now fully converted to capitalism and market economy, there are, as we know, still those who would like to return to the old USSR.
A time machine.
That's right.
A time machine completely made in Russia has been built for these irrepressible nostalgics.
According to the device's inventor, its existence is a reality.
According to a Russian engineer who would be called Bodin Serbanov, the machine popularized in H.G. Wells' novel, far from being a literary creation, is in fact a scientific endeavor of its own, although still in its infancy.
In fact, notes Sherbanoff, those who attempt to return to the past to keep certain historical events from occurring, for example, the collapse of the Soviet Union, would fail in the attempt and would run the risk of not being able to return to the future.
Sherbanoff's machine, at least according to the photos published in newspapers since its creator refuses to show it to any other media, is a spherical metallic capsule measuring two meters in diameter, very similar to astronaut Yuri Gagurin's first Vostok spacecraft.
Within it, explains the inventor, is a meter-wide cabin that houses the passenger, strong rotating electromagnetic fields generated in the capsule decrease or increase the flow of time, whose alteration is recorded by high-precision timepieces.
Sherbanov, who worked in the Soviet Space Agency's planning office and subsequently founded the Cosmoplask Society, claims having conducted initial tests in a Russian city, the former Stalingrad, having reached a distance in time of some scant minutes for the moment.
That's all right.
Minutes is a long time.
If you can really move in time, even just for minutes, then you do indeed have a time machine for the time being.
Above all, for security reasons, the experiments were performed with animals and were extremely brief in order to avoid any health hazards and to keep the machine from becoming lost since it is very expensive, explained the Russian scientist.
However, this time lapse shall be gradually increased in the future with the aim of achieving the mission of exiting our time for a few days or a month at most and exclusively toward the past.
This would enable the capsule's recovery.
The first Froanaut, that's what they're going to call him, has already been chosen, a young computer programmer, Ivan Khanov, who according to Churvanov is in fine physiological condition, which gives him the necessary ability to describe even the vision of the world's end, should he see it.
According to the Russian engineer, no chrononaut would be able to modify historical fact.
Even though he interfered with events, which apparently could occur, this event would have weight only when verified, having no consequence whatsoever to our present.
And in any event, any such effort would maroon him in a parallel universe from which he could never return.
So, folks, it looks to me like the Russians are claiming they have invented a time machine.
And all I can tell you is, I will attempt to follow up on this story.
I will attempt to get hold of the man who, Scott Gorelis, who apparently translated this story so that we could get it to you, and we'll try and find out more about it.
But there you have it.
Wouldn't that be something if the Russians really have done it?
And with rotating magnetic fields, no less.
I always had a feeling that would be the answer.
All right, what we're going to do, I've got several other stories that I want to get to you here.
Oh, here's an interesting one before I go to the phones.
Imagine that our radio antennas picked up a signal from aliens in a galaxy far away.
What would we want to say back to them?
Would we want to make them like us?
Would we want to be honest about our human failings?
We're woefully unprepared to reply to a message from the stars, according to a psychologist, Douglas McCock, whose job is to think about just that.
What should we say to aliens that would reflect something universal about all six billion of us on Earth?
And I wonder how you would answer that question.
In other words, I don't know, when you meet somebody, and I'm talking now about an individual earthly basis, when you meet somebody, you put your best foot forward, which many times means that you tell little white lies or even gray lies about yourself one way or the other, or you try and talk yourself up a little bit, right?
You put your best foot forward.
Now, if we were talking to an alien race, had the opportunity to respond to a radio or light signal, as you know, SETI is off looking at light here shortly.
They think they may make contact.
If we were to make contact, what indeed would we say back to an alien race?
What would we say?
Would we put our best foot forward?
Would we not tell the aliens about the wars we've had, about nuclear power, about putting nuclear weapons into space?
Would we not tell them about our failings socially?
Would we advertise ourselves as a highly advanced society, fully prepared and peaceful, and, oh yes, peaceful, no wars, not down here, folks.
Or would we tell them the unvarnished truth?
This is kind of an interesting question, isn't it?
Wildcard line, you're on the air, open lines all the way.
But, you know, like a blind date gone bad, perhaps if we gave them too rosy a picture, they would arrive imagining all of these wonderful things.
And when they got here, what would they see?
They'd see us chasing some guy around a bunch of caves in Afghanistan.
They'd see bombs being blown up in Israel.
They would see Israel retaliating against the Palestinians.
They would see India threatening Pakistan.
Pakistan threatening India with nuclear weapons.
And as you proceed around the world, looking at everything that's going on, they might find great disappointment.
So, having put our best foot forward may indeed, instead of moving it forward, move it directly into our jaws, and they might decide to cleanse the entire planet.
Well, if you think you're invincible, then you're crazy as a loon because there's more than your head at risk, of course.
I didn't exactly understand where the argument was going.
I mean, I do understand that if we feel better about something and safer, then we're liable to take more of a chance.
That part, I guess, I understand, but I don't think it in any way argues against that additional protection that's afforded.
Seatbelts, for example, people went crazy over seatbelts.
Remember that?
Well, they do save lives.
Do you think people go faster in cars because they've got seatbelts on or because they've got some big balloon that will go off in an accident, supposedly cushioning them from injury?
He told me, you know, start the car in first gear and then just bring it over here, drive it, you know, like second gear across town, and we'll take a look at it.
So I did, and I tried it before I went up to the house.
It was my friend's dad.
And he says, well, did you try adjusting it?
Yes.
Did you try this?
Yes.
Well, we went through and he said, get in the car, put your foot on the clutch, start it up, and it worked again.
I mean, I had been tinkering into it for a day and a half.
Well, listen, thank you so very much for your call.
Maybe there are people like that.
Now, I'm not one of them.
I cannot lay hands upon something and cause it to begin to work.
In fact, quite almost to the opposite, laying hands on it is sort of dangerous.
Usually preceded by a little shuffle across the room and then a slight spark as you touch whatever it is, followed by whatever it is memory locking up totally.
In other words, a computer crash of a sort.
And then totally non-functional until you do a reset, and even then you have sometimes killed it altogether.
So there really may be, you know, there are people who claim they can lay on hands and cure physical ailments around the world.
And I suppose there are people who have the same magic touch with things electronic.
And the Midas touch, we might call it.
And then things, other people that, on the other hand, have the exact opposite.
They bring disaster to whatever they get near.
And I've had a lot of calls from people like that.
I can hear about them on the phone at a distance, but I can't have them anywhere near any of my stuff.
I'm Mark Bellman.
I'll be right back.
Dr. Kenner taken away by unintended consequences.
Hence, we're in open wives, which is just when I've got an awful lot of information.
Here's a story about a defendant who's claiming that his clone shot a youth, a 15-year-old youth.
He didn't do it, he says.
His clone did it.
And he claims that he was cloned when he was in the military.
Serious.
I'll have more in a moment.
From Ottawa, Ohio, in another day of bizarre testimony, a Putman County Sheriff's deputy recounted how Marvin Martin II told him it was his clone, not him, who killed 15-year-old Charles Breckler.
Now, listen to this.
Deputy Harry Berger told the court he met with Mr. Martin and his parents several times between May 9th when young Brecker was shot to death and August 2nd when Martin was arrested.
Deputy said Mr. Martin claimed that he had been cloned three times when he was in the Army and that he and the clones were part of a death squad.
Mr. Martin, 32 years of age now, of Continental, went on trial last week in Puntland County Common Pleas Court on charges of aggravated murder and aggravating menacings stemming from a December 2000 incident, which he allegedly fired a shot at Linda Reckler, the victim's mother outside her home.
He faces the death penalty if convicted of aggravated murder.
And he is claiming that our military, the U.S. government, when he was in service, cloned him, and that there are two others of him out there, and that one of them obviously did this because he didn't.
Now, I have said for a very long time that I think we have already cloned.
I think it's kind of a duh.
Somebody somewhere has cloned.
Experimentally, military, private, lab somewhere working with a black budget, I don't know, but I'm certain.
You know, in the death squad thing, would our military be interested in cloning for the purpose of creating the perfect universal soldier that could do wet work very proficiently?
Sure they would.
You know, our military.
Any military.
Was that done in this particular case?
Who knows?
But that is his defense.
That is his claim that one of the clones the U.S. military created did this murder.
I was thinking about that, and it seems that if you're going to send a healing sort of energy into someone, they have to be a receiver.
You know, there has to be a receiver for a sender.
And if a person that is being healed believes that they can be healed and that they have that healing wavelength or frequency within them and it can connect with the other person, then it seems like it could work.
I don't know about the machine thing, but I do have a friend who seems to make machines work when he walks into a room.
It's like it cannot be sitting there saying to itself, cure me, I know you can do it.
Lay on hands, do it, do it.
unidentified
Well, I thought about that, though.
See, like if you're a person that's sending healing energy to a person and they don't believe that it will work, then their hang-up might cause it to not work.
Whereas a machine is not reluctant.
A machine doesn't have that conditioning that tells you that that kind of a thing can't happen.
I went to a basic training at Lackland Air Force Base in Texas, and what they try and do is mold you into no longer an individual, but they mold you into part of a fighting force that will do exactly as it is ordered to do.
Period.
That's it.
unidentified
It's just attempting to remove every shred of individuality that you have.
Because when they go to the Defense Department and ask them about a project to clone people to be soldiers, what kind of answer do you think they're going to get?
unidentified
I don't know, but Stranger Things have held up in court.
I mean, the allegation that the car tried to kill your fiancé, that's pretty strong.
unidentified
Well, it gets better.
Okay.
So, and now from that, from that point on, almost practically any time she would borrow it or drive in it, something would happen.
It would stall, it would break down.
We were living in Syracuse around the time, and we would drive around Syracuse University, and there's lots of hills, and I let her drive it once, and it just stalled.
It hopped and popped.
The muffler was backfiring.
She screamed at the car.
I screamed at her.
I said, what are you doing to my car?
I got in the car, went right up the hill.
Then she goes to California for a week after that.
When she comes back, she gets in the car.
She's in the passenger side.
We're driving along.
The car door, the passenger side door, the hinge just gives way, and the door flies open.
You go into a very deep coma, so deep that people think you're dead.
unidentified
Well, President Bush had it for a moment, and so did Janet Reno.
And coming up in April, several hundred million people are going to die or go into zombie head, and we're going to have to have a way to sort them out.
I don't expect millions of them in April, but pretty weird stuff.
unidentified
Oh, well, yeah.
I don't know.
I'm calling out of Washington, and it's just kind of weird that, you know, everybody says, oh, Bigfoot's here, and da-da-da-da-da, and just stuff like that.
They warned that a volcano in Culema, Mexico was just hours away from erupting.
They said 2,000 people had already been evacuated from the area.
Then, of course, there's the Congo.
Wasn't it Sean Morton who said this would be the year of the volcanoes?
Chalk another one up for Sean David Morton.
A couple of interesting fast blasts here from Tom in Detroit, who says, oh, God, in a two-week span just before Christmas, I had a broken sewer pipe in the basement, a cracked water heater, and a conked-out furnace.
The house seemed to rebel all at once.
And then Rosalie in Leave, it's Gatesburg, Illinois, says, have you ever heard the theory that when people are really stressed, their machines choose that time to break down?
That's a very interesting theory, that your stress somehow transfers to the mechanical aspects or the electronic aspects of any machine you are near.
Could easily be true.
And then there's this.
The headline is, Antarctica becomes too hot for the penguins.
Warning to world.
This is the Independent in London.
Penguins are starting to desert parts of Antarctica because the icy wastes are getting too hot.
The numbers of Adelaide penguins on the Antarctic Peninsula, the most northernly part of the frozen continent, are falling as global warming takes hold.
And experts predict as the climate change continues, they may abandon much of the 900-mile-long promontory altogether.
They're typal tuxedoed species.
You've seen them like the cold even more than other types of penguins.
And the peninsula has been warming up faster than almost anywhere else on Earth, get this, with temperatures increasing at least five times faster than the world average.
Scientists believe this is disrupting their food supplies.
Global warming is also causing them grief in another of their strongholds, the Ross Sea.
Two giant icebergs have broken off the Antarctic ice sheet and are blocking the way from their breeding colonies to their feeding areas.
As a result, listen to this.
They have to walk 30 miles further to get food, no small matter, when they can manage only one mile per hour.
On the other side of the continent, thousands of Emperor Penguin chicks drowned near Britain's Haley Base after the ice broke up early before they had learned to swim.
So the consequences are building quickly at the bottom of the world.
And I tell you, folks, we are the frogs boiling in the slowly warming pan.
Anyway, the reason I called, sir, is that back in either 79 or 80, I lived over in the San Francisco Bay Area, Silicon Valley.
I was driving to work, and every time I tell this story, people think I'm nuts.
But I thought if anyone, and maybe you've got some information on this, I was driving to work about a three-mile stretch, and I looked over.
I was doing about 50-55 in my car.
I looked off to the left, and about 30 feet off the ground was a round sphere is the best way to describe it, like a round ball that was chrome in color that looked about to be maybe twice to three times the size of a basketball.
It was traveling at the same speed I was doing.
It went underneath a couple overpasses with me, and I looked around to see if there was anybody, you know, playing games with a remote control or something.
I couldn't see anybody.
Just this thing, I couldn't see inside of it or anything like that.
Yeah, you remember when I had the guest on and he said that it was his view that you'd get 200 to 300 miles down in the Earth and gravity would begin to dissipate.
He thought it was a function of the upper crustal areas of the Earth.
And I don't dismiss that theory.
It may well be that somewhere towards the center of the Earth, you would become weightless.
unidentified
Okay.
If we throw something down, let's say Mel's Hole went all the way through.
Well, what I think is that we should, as a nation, it's one thing we can do.
I mean, sure, going to Mars is real expensive, and I would love to go, but we could drill a hole, a really, really, really, really deep hole, if not all the way through, just to see exactly what's in there and what would happen.
I'd be all in favor of that.
I wonder how much it would cost.
unidentified
Do you think we could get all the way through the center core?
How many of you would like to see an official government project that instead of going for Mars, sorry, Richard, just a thought, would endeavor to drill a large diameter hole very, very deep into the Earth, if not all the way through?
Now, what would happen if you had a hole all the way through the Earth?
God, I just, I have no idea what a fascinating question.
It depends on what model of what you believe the Earth is made of in the core you believe in.
If you believe it's molten, then obviously something like that is not going to be immediately possible.
If, on the other hand, you think it might be hollow or a solid, then something like that might be possible, and the answer to his question would have to wait until we did it.
I don't want to call myself a skeptic, but I just have a couple of opinions to make.
I'm prior military, and I've been pretty much, every night I listen to your show, I've been pretty much around a good portion of the world, and I'm just rather kind of confused.
Well, to be honest with you, if I could say I've actually done or seen anything, I would be actually kind of satisfied.
You know, because having gone to some of the, you know, I've been out in the middle of the ocean, I've been flown across the entire half of the earth, a 12-hour flight.
And, you know, you get to looking out your window after 12 hours and you don't see anything.
Well, it just kind of gets to me after a while, because like I said, I like listening to your show, and so many people call in, you know, driving down lonely allways and all that, and all of a sudden here's a sphere of light, you kind of get to wondering.
I've heard a few stories up here since I started working up here about, you know, certain people that, you know, they've seen, it's more of an older miner town and they've seen some pretty strange things.
Well, we'll try and get in touch with him and see if we can work it out, but we tried any number of combinations of calling him, and we could not get a good line that was clear and strong and legible.
We just couldn't get it.
So, I don't know.
His whole theory hit him.
Maybe he's one of those people, like one of the calls I had a little while ago.
That's what somebody else suggested in Fast Blast, and I think that is a very, very good comment.
Related to stress.
That a machine somehow.
After all, many people believe that we are all connected and that things are connected.
In other words, we are connected to our desk, to our furniture, to everything around us, including the electronics and the technological devices that we have.
And it may well be that if our stress level is through the roof, that these things feel it and react to it.
Something to think about.
I'm Mark Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
Open lines.
All right, back into the night, playing with the shadows, and all of you we go.
Kind of like when animals attack accept electricity.
unidentified
Pretty much.
It's what we come from, and you know, we've mutilated and abused in the sense of, you know, it's now serving our own desires and whatnot, in a sense, that might not be the best thing for the entire globe, the whole and all that crap.
Instead, what you want to do is go to something that is grounded and grasp it hard.
Now, then you will not feel the shock.
You will discharge whatever electricity, static electricity has built up in your body harmlessly.
But if you walk around randomly touching stuff, you will kill it.
unidentified
Well, between my moped and the supermarket or the whatever front door, you know, if I'm going to touch something that's grounded, then it's going to be metal.
Well, I'm listening to your show about the electricity acting strange around certain people, and I have a suggestion that ties into another one of your shows.
Well, I was listening, I guess, about a week back, and you had a show with a scientist on from Canada who has been levitating, I guess, things with covalent bonds in them, water, plastic.
Kind of a waking dream where you're somebody else and you're in a different time.
Right.
And you, like maybe a trolley car goes past at the same time as a truck goes past and you flip back into reality.
That sounds really weird, I know.
But is it possible that people that cause this effect in machines, not just the static of walking across the floor and hitting a computer, because even if you have one of those little anti-static straps on, I can sit down and crash almost anyone's computer I know.
And so I'm thinking, perhaps it's people that have certain, I guess it would be a psychic anomaly, because I don't have any control over it.
I don't think that makes it an ability.
Having no control over it, how could it be an ability?
Yeah, if you had control over it, you would obviously exercise it and probably choose most times not to kill something, right?
unidentified
Well, yeah.
Well, no, not that being more of a side effect.
I'm talking about being able to, I guess, trance past experiences, possibly of yourself if you lived a past life, or maybe even of a location where something happened in the past that you pick up on.
And it might not just be that.
It might be any kind of psychic activity in the person, no matter how mundane, might make that person more prone to have a stronger electromagnetic field about them.
Actually, you would think there would be some RF radiation from a biological being of any sort, since electrical impulses are used even if it's nothing more than a general white noise of some sort.
Yes, Mellow Waters said that he helps three men with AIDS in Australia by giving them the North Nevada Indian Herbal Medicine for colds and flu that an Army doctor used to stop the flying swine flu epidemic of 1918.
Yes, sir.
That medicine Might cure persistent colds and chronic fatigue like Epstein-Barr syndrome and Lyme disease.
These are all different viruses.
And I was thinking that maybe the Nevada Indians could sell their herbal medicine as a treatment for AIDS and other viruses, and the big pharmaceutical companies would lose millions of dollars in high-priced patented drugs that don't work good.
Well, those two men in black that beat up Mel Waters in the back of the transit bus and drugged him and pulled his back teeth out, they were either from the pharmaceutical companies that didn't want this medicine on the market.
If there really is some sort of group, organized group that goes around squashing things that we have no right to say no right to know about, from their point of view, no right to know about.
A sort of a put-out the fire squad, a paranormal put-out-the-fire squad.
I don't put it beyond a reason that there would be such a group.
And of course, it wouldn't take a whole lot of doing on their part for the myth to grow and for us all to believe in it.
All right, well, I understand perfectly what you're saying.
And if you think about it, if a craft is able to, in essence, defy gravity, and it's not required to make aerodynamic flight, then the shape would not be important, right?
It could be a rectangle, it could be even a square.
It really would not matter if its flight did not depend on aerodynamic, in other words, on lift, as aircraft as we understand them do.
And it was actually defined gravity, then you would have all sorts of designs that would not even care whether they looked sleek and pointed and air flowed around them in a certain way to give them lift and on and on and on and on, right?
They would be any shape you could imagine and just about every shape you can imagine.
Whatever would be convenient for the user would in all probability be the shape.
So, yes, yes indeed.
I can imagine all kinds of odd craft out there.
You would simply make what would be convenient.
And actually what would be convenient might be square.
Or it might be a triangle.
Or it might be whatever was pleasing to your eye.
Because it doesn't have to fly.
It just defies gravity and moves above and around you silently.
Heaven knows we have plenty of reports of that kind of thing, don't we?
Talking to somebody earlier today about music, and music absolutely keys memories in your mind, memories that haven't been around for a long time.
You can take your car, your car engine, not a little four-cylinder Rice partner, but nice big eight-cylinder engine, drill a hole through the exhaust pipe, throw in a water tube in there, put an in a helio coil in that, burn off the hydrogen as it comes up from the heat of the engine, goes right up, put a PET cock on it, and underneath the carburetor, put a grid.
So it crosses the grid and comes down through the grid.
It bonds with another molecule, and then as it bonds, it comes into the cylinders and it explodes.
You can go over a bridge and not worry about it exploding.
You don't have to have another spacecraft fly into you and cause an explosion of some kind or burn somebody up when you leave them in your dust.
And it's a real easy way, and someday people will get into it.
But I think in the future, beyond this is the most practical way of doing that, but in the future, 200 years from now, maybe people will be riding your invisible radio waves.
Well, that's certainly possible, or maybe there will be some sort of transporter, as in Star Trek, where everything you are, all the molecules that are you, could be virtually disintegrated and transported on some sort of RF wave or some sort of microwave or what have you, and then reassembled on the other end.
That's how you end up with some sort of transporter.
I have seen people that have some type of force feel or problem with them when they, in their course of their work, have had to have handheld radios, the old Motorola VHS radios.
I've seen them go through one after the other where the battery either dies or the antenna grounds to the chassis or something, and it's always them, no matter which radio they give them.
And did you ever think that if you ever succeeded in going back into time, that somewhere out here is probably a wire recording of you trying to talk to us from the past?
Knowing your technical expertise, you would have gotten yourself to anything that would have recorded your voice.
And somewhere laying in some dusty attic, it might just be your recording trying to tell us something.
Of course, there's been so much audio of me that I wonder if I would recognize it or just sort of slough over it.
That in itself is a very interesting question.
Yes, the scientist working on what he claims is virtually an H.G. Wells time machine in Russia is only sending it back.
He's only working on going to the past and only a very few minutes so far.
But even that is startling if true.
If he's been able to go a very few minutes into the past, and he's done this, according to the story, to be able to be sure he's going to recover his machine and to get messages.
I kind of have the opposite effect here, where it didn't work.
September 11th changed all of that, where we had all this technology, bomb-sniffing dogs and the x-ray machines and the metal detectors, and we didn't use them.
In other words, a square or something truly not aerodynamic at any amount of thrust, virtually, the only way that you'd properly fly it would be anti-gravity.
I guess if I knew that, well, I'd be filing patents and I'd be flitting about silently, I might add.
West of the Rockies, you are on the air.
Hello.
unidentified
Mr. Bell.
Yes.
I read about a man who worked as a computer engineer, and there was this one lady that worked in this office that every couple of days she would fry the motherboard on a computer.
Just by touching the keyboard, the whole thing would, you know, she'd discharge electricity all the time.
I mean, it could relate certainly to what you're wearing or the carpet you're on or any number of things, but there really is something else at work here.
And there really are people who have a disastrous effect, I think no matter what they wear, on things, electronic and complicated mechanical apparatus.
Okay, well, a lot of people believe that Revelations by John was in the past, or he wrote about the future, or one of your guests thought he saw the future, or he was here, or he was back there seeing the future.
But I thought maybe it was like reincarnation that he came.
I, John, was there.
But the movie Back to the Future, Michael J. Fox went to the past and changed the future.
Well, fear seemed like a reasonable response to me to something like that.
unidentified
Yeah, and I'm a big macho guy.
And, you know, I was shaking.
And it's even weird talking about it, but the correlation immediately was that this could be a government, you know, craft of some sort, or this could be alien.
Don't know.
Can't really determine that.
However, it had a low hum and a low hum that rattled me.
Millions and millions of Americans, all night tonight, I've heard from varying people who've seen all kinds of things, save one man who's never seen anything and feels lonely.
unidentified
Huh.
I'll tell you what.
You know, I'm a pretty skeptical person, and my dad, who actually works for other defense industry companies, has told me that a lot of the things that we see that the government turns around and says, no, no, no, no, no, well, it's all fact.
Well, it says in these emerald tablets that are supposed to be thousands of years old that Thoth actually built one of the great pyramids of Giza in a matter of days.