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Jan. 23, 2002 - Art Bell
02:40:41
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - George Zeiler - MUFON, Investigating the Romanek UFO Sighting
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♪♪ From the high desert and the great American Southwest,
I bid you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon, as the case may be across all 24 time zones,
covered by this radio program.
I'm Art Bell and this radio program is Coast to Coast AM.
And here in the second hour, we're going to have, it's going to be a UFO kind of night.
We're going to have George A. Zeiler on, who is Deputy International Director and Field Investigator of MUFON.
The biggest reporting agency of its kind in the world.
He's going to be following up on the Stan Romanek case and a lot more.
So that's coming up next hour.
This hour, I would first like to welcome KOGO FM.
KOGO FM?
Oh ho ho!
San Diego, California.
San Diego, Temecula, simulcasting with KOGO AM.
Hey, now that's pretty cool.
KOGO FM serves, they say.
The beautiful Temecula Valley and Southwest Riverside County, including Mariana, Lake Elsinore, Hemet, Willmar, and Paris.
And so, Kevin McCarthy and Cliff Albert, hey, hey, hey, all right for you guys, FM.
Very cool, indeed.
Very cool, indeed.
It's 94.5 FM 94.5 if you're down south you might give that a listen It's kind of cool coming in on FM believe me now Let us peruse what's going on in the world American Taliban Mr. Walker is arriving at Dulles International back in the USA back in a good old USA He is the American Al-Qaeda.
That's what he's called.
The American Al-Qaeda soldier.
Taliban fighter.
The American Taliban.
There were also some British Taliban.
About three of them, I think.
Kenneth Lay, the embattled chairman and chief executive of Enron.
Here it is, top of the news again.
Resigned tonight from the bankrupt energy company, but will remain on the company's board.
Again back to the war at the U.S.
military base outside Kandahar, Afghanistan.
FBI Director Robert Mueller said members of Osama Bin Laden's terror network detained here have, he said, provided valuable information that's prevented new attacks against the U.S.
and targets worldwide.
That's interesting.
The terrorists they're holding there, not here, mind you, have provided valuable information.
Now, how willingly do you think they provided this information?
Now, this is only being talked about at the fringes, but you know, that's me, the fringe.
We talked for a while about Whether or not you would torture a terrorist to save a lot of American lives.
And I think the general consensus was yes, you would.
But you wouldn't use the word torture.
There's something about using the word torture that Americans cringe away from but arose by any other name would be still Now, where did you say that next attack was coming from?
Right?
Did we do that?
Are we doing that?
I don't know.
I would imagine it's a possibility.
Islamic militants are threatening, in their words, quote, all out war, end quote.
To avenge the killing of a Hamas commander in the West Bank and Yasser Arafat's Palestine Authority said can no longer expect to enforce any sort of truce with Israel.
So, things are going to hell in a handbasket rather rapidly in the Middle East.
A colleague of mine is gone at a competitor's station in Phoenix, KTAR.
I'm on KFYI.
Was once on KTAR.
But now KFYI is the home.
A talk show host there, who did a show similar to mine, called Mysteries Around Us, and you know, it dealt with the paranormal and things we deal with on this program, did an odd thing last week.
He predicted he would die January 19th.
And that's exactly what occurred.
He died of congestive heart failure Saturday at the age of 71.
71. So he predicted the exact day of his own death and did so on the air.
Sort of a moment to think about him and say goodbye to a colleague.
Thank you.
You know we've been talking about the second coming of our sun.
And we have been past the peak now of the solar cycle for some time, but now we're getting interesting quotes from scientists.
Joanne Jocelyn of the University of Colorado at Boulder, who ought to know, said, quote, the second peak has really swamped the first in some ways, she said.
She is a solar scientist at the University of Colorado at Boulder.
In terms of weather near Earth, the resurgence of solar storms has meant more aurora light showing for people at high and mid latitudes in both the northern and southern hemispheres.
Now, what's happening with the sun is pretty strange.
I guess not unheard of.
But I don't recall Twin Peaks previously.
There are certainly peaks and valleys as you go through the 11-year cycle, but what we're having right now, I think, is sort of unprecedented.
And the sun has been going totally berserk.
Should be getting rather quiet about now, really, but it's not.
It's a very interesting story from Dublin, Reuters story.
It has been a pipe dream of inventors since Leonardo da Vinci, but has the secret of free energy now been found in Ireland?
A cold stone house on a windswept Irish hillside may seem an unlikely setting for the birthplace of any such epic making discovery, but here it is!
It's said an Irish inventor has developed a machine that will do no less than change the entire world.
58-year-old electrical engineer who lives in the Irish Republic and intends for security and public avoidance reasons, he says, to keep his identity secret has spent 23 years perfecting what he calls the Jaskier Power System.
It is, he says, an electromechanical device that's capable of nothing less than replenishing its own energy source.
The Irishman is not alone in making such assertions.
The Internet is awash with speculation about free or zero-point energy.
Many claiming to have cracked the problem using magnets, coils, even crystals.
These claims come along every ten years or so, and nothing ever comes of them.
They're all cases of voodoo science, said Robert Park, professor of physics at the University of Maryland, makers of the Jasker, The name derived from family abbreviations say it can be built to scale using off-the-shelf components and can power anything that requires a motor.
The Jester produces emission-free energy at no cost apart from the installation.
It is quite possible the most significant invention since the wheel.
Now, they were given a demonstration of this device.
Reuters was, and apparently rather impressed.
In a demonstration for Reuters, a prototype roughly the size of a dishwasher was run for about 10 minutes using four 12-volt carb batteries as an initial power source.
Emitting a steady motorized hum, the machine powered three 100-watt light bulbs for the duration a multimeter reading The battery's voltage before the device began showed a total of 48.9 volts.
When it was switched off, the second reading showed 51.2 volts, indicating that somehow they had been reimbursed.
The machine went on to run for about two hours, while photographs were taken, with no diminution in the brightness of the bulbs, which remained lit, by the way, during a short power cut.
The draw on the batteries was estimated at more than 4.5 kilowatts.
With any existing technology, the batteries would have been drained flat in one and one-half minutes, according to the inventor.
So... There you have it.
Yet another claim, which, of course, we can't really do anything with.
But if I can find some way to follow up on this, and I could get some really solid information, I would surely bring it to you.
In a moment I have kind of a local story for you involving my own area and I'll tell you exactly the way it developed in a moment.
Stay right where you are.
Well alright, this afternoon I was At our own radio station here in Pahrump, KNYE 95.1.
Plug, plug, plug.
And every now and then, when I go down to the station, you know, we're playing... First of all, we're non-commercial right now, in the sense that we're not running commercials.
Aside from those that appear in the news, we're just running music from 6 in the morning till 10 at night.
non-stop. An ID here and there, but that's it. We're just going after all the listeners
there are and we're just financing it ourselves and running music. It's wonderful to listen
to. Anyway, every now and then I'll go down in the afternoon and do 30 minutes of how
you're doing in Pahrump, what's going on, that kind of thing. And I did that this afternoon
and I began to get calls from first citizens and then a young lady whose dad was nice enough
to put her on the phone, a high school student. And it seems that shortly before I went on
the air here in Pahrump this afternoon, this is just for a local Pahrump audience, we began
to get news that the high school had just closed, as in closed down, because of black
mold.
and I'll see you next time.
And I said, what?
You know, and I said, well, we'll treat this as a rumor until we know more.
And then, of course, we investigated and the Niagara County School District sent us a press release that indicates that, indeed, they are closing the high school to ensure student and faculty safety, it says here.
The building is to be vacated until a full investigation is completed by specialists in the field.
What they have found is Stachy Botrys Shatarum.
It's S-T-A-C-H-Y B-O-T-R-Y-S C-H-A-R-T-A-R-U-M.
Shatarum.
And I did some reading on the internet about this, and this Shatarum Stereopatris shatorum can cause rashes, cough, congestion.
They say it's extremely toxic.
Neurological damage exists in buildings that have sustained water damage or have standing water, heavily wetted wallboard or damp conditions.
Now, they named some other schools that have been affected.
The Cashman School in Amesbury and there have been others.
Now, We began to get reports of black mold, you may recall, about a year ago.
But oddly, the reports were coming from, guess where?
The American Southwest, here.
Arizona, I believe, New Mexico, and they mentioned Nevada.
And of course, that's where I am, Nevada.
But here's the thing that won't click with me, and I might add our county buildings also had to be abandoned here because of black mold.
Now bear in mind where I am.
We're, you know, 20 or 30 miles from Death Valley.
This is, you know, serious desert that I live in here.
It's 20 mule team kind of desert, right?
In the summer, our humidity levels are single digit most times.
In the winter, They're very low, a double digit, and this is one of the driest places in the world.
Now, I'm not saying that mold can't exist here, because, you know, you could break water pipes, air conditioning problems, I don't know, a million things, I suppose, could get something wet.
But that this whole mold story would be sweeping through the Southwest.
In fact, right here in Pahrump, Nevada, it just astounds me.
You would think if there was going to be a sort of a problem that it would have shown up first on the coasts.
Now, this really may be nothing more than, I'm not a scientist, so I don't know, but I've done a little bit of reading on this, and maybe it's nothing more than you would get behind your refrigerator.
But again, I'm stumped at the fact that it's turning up in the American Southwest here, in the arid desert.
Where you just wouldn't expect it.
And if it was just here, that would be one thing, but it was all over several southwestern states.
And now here it is in Nevada.
So, I don't know.
One more time, I want to call your attention to A very, very interesting story.
A lot of people just were shocked by what Mark Hazelwood had to say about the 10th planet, or the possibility of a 10th planet.
Well, again, there is an ABC story, a science story, about exactly that.
The title, in fact, of the article is, A 10th Planet?
And it says that astronomers may have found hints of a massive, distant, still unseen object at the edge of the solar system, perhaps a tenth planet, perhaps a failed companion star.
And when I read this, we've got it on the website in case you would like to read the entire article.
It all came crashing in and the article came to me sent by somebody, you know, a couple of days after Mark was on the air.
Anyway, fascinating, and if you want to read it for yourself, go to my website and we've got the ABC, or a link to the ABC story there for you now.
The following story, I will just read to you.
The headline is, flushed with anger, woman gets stuck to airline toilet seat.
Oslo, Reuters.
An American woman had no need to fasten her seatbelt on a flight from Scandinavia, that's a long flight, from Scandinavia to the United States after a high-pressure vacuum flush sealed her to the toilet seat of the transatlantic airliner.
The woman filed a complaint with Scandinavian Airlines System, SAS, after her ordeal on a Boeing 767 flight last year.
Apparently she got sucked in after pushing the flush button while seated, activating a system to clean the toilet by vacuum, said the airline on Monday.
She could not get up by herself and had to sit on the toilet until the flight had landed so that ground technicians could help her get loose, an SAS spokeswoman told Reuters.
She was stuck there for quite a long time.
Yes!
That's a very, very, very long flight.
And somewhere early in the flight, you would stroll into the bathroom and by accident flush while you remained seated.
Nine, ten, eleven hours in the air.
Sitting there.
Until finally what you had to look forward to was a bunch of airline I'm not really comfortable with the entire image that this
calls up, nor should you be if you are mentally calling it up and it's almost unavoidable
as you hear the story.
I've been on some transatlantic, transpacific flights.
They're very long, and to imagine sitting there, unable to free yourself, so to speak, you know, it's unimaginable.
It's terrorism.
By accident.
I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast, and we'll be in open lines for about 30 here, and then at the top of the hour, We're going to talk to the Deputy International Director and Field Investigator for MUFON, the guy who goes out and actually investigates these incredible stories and eyewitness reports and sometimes photographs and we've got all of that for you tonight.
It's all day long today and probably tomorrow and I bet for a whole week I'm going to be stuck in my head with the image of this poor lady stuck to this seat on an airliner for a whole transatlantic flight.
It's a terrible image, and you just, you can't get rid of it.
Now, now I've given it to you, and you won't be able to get rid of it either, you'll see.
Anyway, we'll be right back.
All right, to the air we go with all of you.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air, good morning.
Good, good morning, uh, we're on the air, Bill, uh, Glenn, Eddie Lark.
I'm sorry.
Yes, I'm Art, and yes, you're on the air.
Okay.
Listen, the other morning, I guess it was Friday, you were talking to a fellow who had a hole on his property.
They couldn't find the bottom of it.
Mel's Hole, yes.
Mel's Hole, okay.
And WMAL, our local station, cut away on the hour and had left me in San Francisco with this guy's teeth knocked out.
No, but I can do this for you.
I can give you and everybody else a piece of bulletin information here.
You ready?
about what happened. I just wonder if you can sort of summarize that.
Ready.
No, but I can do this for you. I can give you and everybody else a piece of bulletin
information here. You ready? Ready.
This next Tuesday, because of the rebroadcast of Mel's Hole, Mel Waters contacted us and
we're going to have him on this coming Tuesday.
He has found a second hole.
So if you want to know what happened and what's happening, then Tuesday would be your night, sir.
OK, well, I'll be sure to tune in.
And I do appreciate your program.
It's really great.
OK, thank you very much.
I don't want to give away Any secret information, but it's not really secret, even though you're just hearing about it for the first time right now.
We booked Mel Waters for Tuesday.
He happened to be traveling around and was quite surprised hearing himself on the radio and contacted the network, and it seems he's come upon a second, seemingly endless hole.
And this one's really fascinating, but because of obvious concerns, surrounding the confiscation I will call it or whatever you
want to call it the deal he couldn't refuse from the government of the first
hall I'm not going to talk about where it is I will leave that up to him
to either say or not say but it is again a fascinating story so to be caught
up on what happened and what is happening now
You're going to want to listen Tuesday night.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello.
Hi, Art.
This is Ethan in Salt Lake City from 570K NRS calling.
Yes, ma'am.
Just calling to ask you about if you would maybe consider having Candice DeLong on your show again?
The FBI agent?
Yes, I just got done reading her book.
Great read.
Oh, yes.
Great interview.
Yes, of course I would consider having her on again.
Especially after September 11th.
Especially after that.
You interviewed her prior to that.
I wonder how many other September 11th's she foiled.
You know, the trouble is, they can never really tell you that.
That's true.
Occasionally it hits the news, but things that they do stop, for the most part, you never hear about.
Yeah.
So, uh, you know, as a result of that, uh, the agencies get a black eye.
That's true.
Sometimes deserved, I might add, but mostly not, because, uh, they are doing their job, and, uh, when you, when they do it, you don't hear about it.
When they don't do their job, then, of course, you hear about it a lot.
True.
Okay?
That's just a suggestion for your great show.
All right, thank you.
Good night.
Take care, yes.
Candace, we ought to have her back.
Especially since 9-11.
First time caller line, you're on the air.
Hello.
Good morning, this is Jonathan from Houston.
Hi, Jonathan.
Uh, that big old, long, hefty, uh, bold word you were trying to say, that's stachybotrys.
Yes.
That's not too good.
No, no.
We have that down here in Houston quite a bit, and I noticed it's come from the east coast all the way down to the south down here, and now that's, I find it highly unusual that you guys In the West, where it's so dry and parched, we would have mold problems.
Right.
Right.
I mean, here we are in a little prompt with the county buildings closed.
And now, as of this afternoon, the high school closed.
A real shocker.
I just happened to have it as it was breaking news.
I was kind of cool.
I was down at my radio station.
And by God, there, as I spoke, it happened.
And so we got it on the air as breaking news.
But it is a Gosh, it is.
It is.
I just can't figure it out.
I guess the answer is it can happen anywhere where there is water.
It's just... But if you were to say Washington, OK, fine.
It's wet there.
If you're down south where it's humid, OK.
Yes, I can understand that.
I agree.
And listen, it came up from Arizona, which is every bit as arid.
And so... Well, sure.
But you also have all four seasons there, too.
So, well, it's hot there.
Well, I don't know.
It would be.
We have actually about two and an eighth seasons here.
We have winter and then we have a few days of what some people around here call spring.
Then we have summer.
Then we have a few days of what some people around here call fall.
Then we have winter.
No, I'm serious.
Those are our four seasons.
It sounds as bad as that.
It's either hot and humid here, or we have a hurricane blow through, or our winters are so mild we're out in bathing suits and shorts during Christmas time.
Here's one more thing about this whole mold business.
Now, when I was in high school, I don't remember one story ever, any place, of any place closing because of mold.
Of high schools and You know, county buildings and such closing because of mold.
Now, maybe it happened and I wasn't paying attention, but I don't remember anything like that.
Not on a scale that we've got now.
Well, there's side effects like people are getting rashes from it.
That's right.
That's right.
Lung allergies.
And it's just it's it's really bad.
I mean, I come from a house here where three of the members of a four member family get allergies real bad.
And if you have any of this mold or anything in your air system ducts or any of our carpeting
that's gotten just a little bit damp, it's going to affect you on down the road.
And people think, well, I'll just let the carpet dry out.
No, you need to rip that carpet out because otherwise you're going to have thousands and
thousands of dollars more damaged in the structure of your home and in the drywall that's no
longer dry but it's all full of mold.
It's a problem.
Most companies, they're fixing just to fall off the bandwagon here in other states too
like the area in Texas.
Well, you know, again, in Houston, I mean, you're in a pretty humid climate so it's somewhat
understandable, but I just, the rash of it here in the southwest is puzzling.
That is, that's what's puzzling me, too.
Appreciate your call, sir.
Oh, here's the future.
All right, take care.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air, hi.
Yeah, hey Art.
Hey.
Got me on that mold, I have no idea.
I know dry rot on boats, you know, once they get it in there, it's like cancer, you gotta... Yeah, but a boat.
Yeah, I know.
Even though it's dry, it still keeps working itself, you know, once it gets started.
Sure.
Yeah, I've seen a couple UFOs, and I know it's kind of boring, but one was like that monolith.
UFOs are anything but boring.
I know, but you get so many calls about them and everything.
Well, that's quite all right.
They are something.
I don't know what they are, but what did you see exactly?
The most fascinating one was In Sausalito, right over, almost downtown, coming into the marina there, my brother and I looked up and saw what looked like a super white, bright spotlight from, like we thought, a helicopter going back and forth searching this one little square block area.
Right.
And then it just shot straight up in the air with lightning speed and left a blue-green streak in the upper atmosphere that lasted for over half an hour.
Well, you know, that was no helicopter.
That was obviously no helicopter.
Now, you know, I have people on who are skeptical, but...
You know, you said boring when you got on.
There's nothing boring about seeing that.
It'll leave your mouth hanging open on your chest, you know.
It'll hit your chest.
Now, this is going on all over the world.
And I get these skeptics on here and they say, well, I tend to put down UFOs because I just don't believe in that stuff or because they would make contact or something or another.
All the things that people say, and yet this is going on.
It is real.
It is happening, and somebody's got to look into it.
It permanently tweaks your reality, especially at the time that a person sees it.
We saw one as a kid, too.
It was like a black monolith.
Yeah.
It looked like the one in the Dorito Taco story where the guy, we saw the website, so that
diamond black, cold black, marquee shaped UFO.
And we saw it, just sat there, and my brother and my friend and myself were all standing
there telling my dad, and he says, he's been in the service for 20-something years, he
said, you know, there's nothing there.
You better stop talking about the Men in Black.
They're going to come after you if you keep talking.
Dad, what's the Men in Black?
Where did Dad hear about it?
He brought up a couple of places he used to be.
He's passed away now, God rest his soul.
Yeah, you should have asked him.
Hey, Dad, where did you hear about Men in Black?
I was six or seven.
Yeah, I emailed you yesterday with some pictures of those singing schnauzers that got shot with the electric harmonica.
Ha ha ha.
Did you catch my email yesterday at 8.30?
No, unfortunately.
Oh, you should.
There was a stun gun singing dog.
Well, I talked to Will once and he said that you might be cutting that up and the dog said they want to get some dog cookies out of that deal.
Oh, that was funny.
Alright, thank you very much.
That was a riot.
That was a riot.
No, if it's come to the point where UFOs are boring because the stories are so prolific, Then to me that just makes it even a bigger story.
And obviously something is flying in our space, our airspace.
Our airspace, our space above the planet.
Something is here.
Now, I cannot for certain say it is aliens, nor can I say it is not the government, nor can I say it is.
I don't know what the hell it is.
I know that Millions and millions and millions of people cannot be wrong.
Some of them can be.
Some of them misled by seeing things they simply don't understand are going to be reported, of course, as UFOs.
But we have sightings, massive sightings, by reliable people, police officers, staff of the NTSC, people in airports at control towers, you know, people who really know what they're looking at.
Then, of course, I had my own sighting.
So, whatever it is, these things are here, and they are in our skies, and somewhere there is an explanation for it all.
Now, the truth eventually will prevail, and whatever they are, we'll figure it out.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
Hello.
Hi, Arshon.
Hello there.
Hello.
Hang on.
Okay.
Turn your radio off, please.
Yeah, I did.
Okay.
Excuse me.
I thought of a good way to interrogate the prisoners down there at Guantanamo.
A more effective way than whatever they're using right now, you mean?
I'm sorry?
A more effective way than whatever they're using at the moment?
Well, I don't know what they're doing now, but I think this would be effective.
Yeah, I don't either.
Let them all see this.
Slaughter a pig.
And dip a box of bullets in the pig's blood.
And open a new box of clean bullets.
I had two soldiers there, each one with a gun, and give the prisoners their choice of being shot with the one that was contaminated with pig blood, or shot with the clean one.
And, uh, the more they talked, the better their chances of being shot with the clean bullet would be.
Uh, well, uh, yeah, there's something about some number of virgins waiting over on the other side.
I don't think we're going that far.
But I do think, particularly in Afghanistan, whether it's at arm's length with the Afghanis that are sympathetic to our cause, or at least say they're sympathetic to our cause, by the way, I wouldn't take any bets on that, they may have elicited information from the Taliban at the wink and nod behest of our spook guys.
I'm not exactly sure how it's... Well, actually, I am exactly sure how it's done.
Whether they're doing that or not, I don't know.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello.
Good morning.
This is James from Rutland, Mass.
Hi, James.
How are you?
Ookie.
All right.
UFOs.
I've never come across, how would you measure how fast or how far they would be going in
the sky?
Do you know what I mean?
How fast an object would be going?
It would depend of course on its relative altitude.
That would depend, it's all line of sight.
In other words, if it's at 40 or 50,000 feet or 100,000 feet or 300,000 feet, then you've
got a very, very different measurement.
On the other hand, for example, I'm sure you've seen a jet scream over your head.
You hear it about three seconds before and about three seconds after and it's gone.
It depends on the altitude.
That's the only way you'd measure speed.
Yeah, what about like how I, because I'm not going to get into the whole story, but I've
seen something about five times and someone went through about three times.
And like it, you know, stops and starts and goes back.
But we can never figure out, like, how much distance it's covering and how quickly, like, you know what I mean?
Yes, I do know what you mean.
I haven't, like, seen a formula for that.
Well, I... there is no formula.
There are sort of rough ways to, you know, you hold it up and you say, well, it was roughly the size of... if you have reference objects, but otherwise it's very difficult to say how...
Unless you know how big something is and what its altitude is, it's very, very difficult to come up with any sort of speed estimate.
Now, of course, when they get radar on it and that sort of thing, then they can do that, and they have measured some incredible speeds on radar.
Speeds that a normal man would not be capable of and of course would turn us to jelly.
The G-forces involved would turn us to jelly.
What's to the Rockies?
You're on the air.
Hello.
Well, hello, Mr. Bell.
Hello there.
You got Southbound Bob here in California.
Southbound, huh?
Yeah, we're going southbound today.
I got a theory about the UFOs and why that there's so many of them.
Why?
Um, that I think that they're, they're, they're, they're coming down here to watch, possibly in 16 months, like the, the fellow at Hazelwood said the other day, about the, uh... Nibiru?
Yeah, about their, doing the shift, and that they're, they're coming to watch it.
Scientifically.
Gonna watch the catalysm, maybe, of it.
Yeah, there was a, um, there was a movie, sir, that, uh, I cannot recall the name of, and it doesn't really matter, but it involved time travelers who would travel as you would with, you know, a group of travelers.
And they would go back to various times in history when various cataclysms had occurred.
And they were time tourists.
They would check into a hotel about a week before a comet or something was going to smash into a particular area.
And then they would watch the event and scurry away in time, you know, just sort of as tourist observers of a cataclysm.
And you have to imagine that if time travel is possible, or if visitors from elsewhere are here, that they would very likely be aware of any cataclysm that might occur here.
Prior to our being aware of it, with their technology.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello?
Art!
Yes?
How you doing, bud?
Okay, where are you?
I know you're sick of that question.
Where are you?
Here's Norm in Salt Lake.
Yes, sir.
Getting ready for these Olympics.
All right.
Well, we got all kinds of... Security?
Security all over the place.
Mm-hmm.
Hey, um... Art?
Yes?
Um... Yeah, the new bureau, I think, uh... It could be coming?
Of the 10th planet?
You bet!
Well, I think that part of... Here's what I want to say about that.
I have no idea whether it's actually coming.
There's some evidence that there have been cataclysms the size of something that Nibiru would have caused.
Or a planetary passage that close would have caused here on Earth.
And there seems no question that science now is imagining there may be a tenth planet out there.
Again, I reference you to the story, the ABC story that hit me right between the eyes after Mr. Hazelwood's visit the other night.
Now, the one thing missing from this story, of course, is whether this object appears headed in our direction.
They don't know.
And if they do, they're not saying so.
That's the one part of Mr. Hazelwood's presentation that I'm not sure about.
It may be there.
And modern science seems to be confirming the possibility that it may well be there.
But I think the key question is whether it's headed our way in any sort of short term or long term.
Thirty six hundred year returning orbit, anything of that sort.
I just don't know, but even hearing part of what he had to say confirmed sent a few chills down my spine.
I don't know about you.
Coming up in a moment is George A. Zeiler, currently Deputy International Director and Field Investigator of MUFON.
We are going to be talking about UFOs.
It'll be that kind of night.
And by the way, there is a, uh, there's a very interesting, uh, rendition of the UFO that was seen in the case we're going to talk about, right under George Zeiler's name, if you want to take a look.
I'm Mark Bell, from the high, moldy desert in the Great American Southwest.
We'll be right back.
It certainly is, and Stan Romanowski had an incredible UFO sighting.
We have the video from that sighting on my website.
Now, what was incredible about that video?
It was shaky.
You got to see the object.
There were stills provided of the object.
Uh, I'll tell you what was credible and amazing about the video.
To me.
And that was toward the second of the, uh, the last part of the second video.
Stan, uh, Had a whole crowd around him.
I mean, it was like a, it was like a, a scene out of Close Encounters of the Third Kind.
When they all got together and they were discussing, oh my God, did you see that?
Well, that's what was at the end of the video.
Now, uh, because it was under investigation, we gave none of the names of the other witnesses.
But to see that on video and to hear what those people were saying, uh, during that UFO encounter was astounding.
It was astounding.
Well, that case has been investigated by MUFON.
And tonight, I have George Zeiler here.
He is currently Deputy International Director and Field Investigator of the Mutual UFO Network, or MUFON, which is none other than the world's largest civilian UFO research organization.
His background includes experience in various aspects of banking and real estate, is owner of his own private investigation business, That's interesting.
George learned a variety of skills for gleaning information from obscure situations, which has served him very well in his paranormal and UFO investigations.
His interest in the UFO phenomena was stirred after serving at Nellis Air Force Base.
That's interesting.
Just over the hill here.
Currently, his private investigation experience is being put to good use by MUFON.
George has recently wrapped up his investigation of the San Roman X sighting.
Now that may not be entirely true, it may not be entirely wrapped up, but I guess the case has proceeded to a point where we can tell you more than we did before.
And we'll sort of recap the case and find out what's new.
It's interesting to hear from somebody who saw the UFO, who even got video of the UFO, but it's really interesting to hear about somebody With George Zeiler's credentials, who has investigated the entire case.
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Now, here is the Deputy International Director and Field Investigator for MUFON, George Zeiler.
George, welcome.
Thank you, Art.
It's good to be on your show.
Good to have you.
Well, you somehow... Before I ask you about Stan's case, Your interest in the UFO phenomena, it says here, was stirred after serving at Nellis Air Force Base.
Now that's just over the hill for me here.
And I was wondering what it was that occurred at Nellis that got you interested?
That's a good question, Art.
It's really the beginning of the seed, if you might say.
I pretty much was a skeptic up until a few years ago, but having been stationed at Nellis and working in classified projects when I came back from Vietnam.
Classified projects at Nellis?
Yes.
Okay.
Not that there are any classified projects at Nellis ever, but as you know, that's the test center.
I know.
And we're very close to Pahrump there.
Yes, I know.
I saw a lot of things that you wondered about and then there was always the things going on at Area 51.
Oh yes, yes.
George, how much of what you learned at Nellis can you not talk about because of continued classified status?
A lot?
A little?
Probably a little.
A little.
Okay.
We see a lot of things here in the Pahrump Valley.
Do a lot of flyovers, George.
And so we see a lot of strange objects here in the sky.
Things that simply cannot be explained.
Certainly not by conventional science.
I've seen one of them myself, so... I don't know.
Either we are generations beyond where we think we are, and we've invented anti-gravity, or we're being visited, one of the two.
Well, I think that it's not our government projects.
None that I know of.
And for the last few years, I've extensively been researching that, but that's a whole different theory.
So you're a private investigator as well, right?
That's correct.
I'm a retired private investigator, actually.
Retired, okay.
Nevertheless, those skills can be easily applied here, right, as an investigator?
Oh, absolutely.
Sure.
Directly applied, really?
Absolutely.
Alright, let's discuss the Stan Romanek case for a second.
Recap for everybody what Stan went through.
Actually, the Stan Romanek case started When this particular sighting on September 30th, he had come home from work and had gone to a gas station and was on his way home.
On the way home, this craft of some kind, which was located about 30 feet above the telephone poles, was seen following his car down a street called Estes Street in Lakewood,
Colorado.
Now, that's pretty unusual in the South in that it's, you know, a pretty heavy metropolitan area.
For us, it was in our backyard because our headquarters is only about three miles from there.
Right.
Well, there were a number of witnesses that saw him going down the street,
and in fact, he didn't even think anything of it.
He thought it was a police helicopter following him.
Right?
So he even waved at it.
He thought it was kind of funny, you know.
You know, give him the salute out the window, and until he sees all these people stopping their cars and pointing upward, and then he reacts to it.
And Stan having had a number of sightings that month, Which again is an unusual phenomenon in itself.
People, there's a lot of people who've never seen one, myself included, but you see a lot of strange things, but they're generally little lights in the sky, let alone a ball, you know, right over the top of your car.
What's even more unusual, Stan, then, because he had these other sightings, is carrying this video camera and he jumps out and proceeds to get about 15 minutes of footage, which is terrific.
From our sense, because you've had the experience of shooting some other ones that didn't come out so well.
Tell me, even this one was herky-jerky.
And I don't mean to put it down because God knows, you know, in that situation, I don't know how many camera sensibilities I'd be able to maintain.
Thank you very much.
But it was kind of jerky in the beginning.
You know, I thought, you know, and then it showed the still and I went, oh, that's kind of interesting.
When I saw the still, And then when, at the end, George, when I saw all of these people gathered around, like the scene out of Close Encounters of the Third Kind, that's impressive.
That's really impressive.
They were all in a shocked kind of condition.
I mean, this is something that really happened.
Period.
Well, for us too.
When I first saw the video, that was almost verbatim.
My thoughts was, Unbelievable that all of a sudden you have this whole trove of witnesses, ranging in age from 8 years old to 70, and about 50 of them.
About 50 witnesses?
We have about 50 witnesses total that have come forward on this so far, and we continue to get new contacts.
On my website tonight, under your name, there is a rendition Uh, let's see.
Uh, we've got Stan's video number one and Stan's video number two.
And by the way, I recommend everybody watch number two and watch it to the very end so you can see what I'm talking about.
Uh, but, uh, on Stan's UFO page, there is now a rendition of what Stan says he saw, what he captured on videotape.
A pretty good rendition of it, and it's a really weird looking object.
You have seen the image?
Yes.
Is that representative, do you believe, of, about what this thing looked like?
It's pretty close.
Okay.
I think that there's, we haven't got, what parts of the video analyst have not finished Looking at it as professionals that really look at the videos and break it down frame by frame and quarter frame.
So it's just something that's close.
It's as close as you're going to get.
It's one of the few out of thousands that really give you that up close look.
You've interviewed at least some portion of the 50 witnesses connected with this, right?
That's correct.
Do those witnesses generally agree with the description given and the way the UFO behaved and all the rest of it?
Are people in general agreement?
Generally, they are, but one thing that you should note, Art, is that the reason that we interview all of them separately, and again, I would like to thank you and your staff for being so sensitive to our investigation on your last show, because it was very helpful.
Yeah, I knew it was ongoing and I didn't want to get in the way of that by giving names, but you're now, the investigation is not actually officially closed yet, right?
This may go on for a couple years.
but but you're you're going to a part of it is pretty much close to much close
to our agenda maybe you can talk about that without giving out people's names
what it would what was the general kind of thing you got from the
witnesses we have a the
first one that really grabbed me was the fellow sitting at the stoplight
uh... when peter davenport initially and you know a move on we get
reports from a lot of different sources because we're
the major investigative arm Sure, including Peter Davenport.
Right, and so when he got this report he sent it in and he sent us all of the people that had reported.
Whirlam was the CEO of a major company.
And in order to protect his privacy, I mean, he was really reluctant to even talk to us.
It took you some time to do that.
But just reading his report, he's sitting in a stoplight, and he sees this ball of light following this van.
And then he sees the hollow, concave part of it.
And then from the interior of this ball, he sees a light beam come out.
like, much like a searchlight.
But when it goes over the car, it doesn't go over the car.
It scans through. His description was, it scanned through the car. It sliced right through it.
And he had serious concern for the people inside the car.
I'm sure it would appear as though it might be some sort of weapon to the observer.
Oh, it scared him so bad that he said he went home and locked the doors and crumbled for about two hours.
This is a CEO of a major corporation.
Oh, yes.
Very credible witness.
Yes, yes.
An elderly man.
I mean, this is not a young man.
This is an older man that's been around the block.
I mean, he didn't want people to think he was crazy, but he thought enough of it that he did report it.
That grabs you when a man of that stature sees it.
And then you see all these witnesses on the film, which was more astounding.
One thing we learned in this business is that witnesses don't always see under stress.
Same thing.
Things the same way.
So we take and do comparative analysis of what those witnesses see and glean from it the scientific information that we can.
And then we take and do all the physical processes.
So another one that grabbed me was the young little girls that first saw it in the picnic.
Now here's this park that he pulls into.
Now Stan Romanek pulled into a park Where this family was having a picnic.
Now, mind you, this is a nice day.
They've just finished having an all-day picnic for a 10-year-old birthday.
You know, the whole family's gathered and it's just getting toward dusk.
There's still about 68 or 70 degrees.
You know, there's virtually no clouds in the sky.
There's some clouds coming from the southeast and a little breeze, you know, six or seven miles an hour from the southeast.
So that's kind of the setting, full moon, just gorgeous night.
And all of a sudden these little girls are walking in the restroom and they turn around and they see this blinking thing right along the top of the trees.
The first words out of their mouth was, aliens, aliens.
Really?
I mean, when you really listen to the tape, and one of the things that we do is we take those tapes And we sit and we listen to them.
And take them apart.
And take them apart.
Sure.
And we hear little minute details as well as the visual things.
But you hear these little girls saying, Aliens!
Aliens!
Look, Mom, there's aliens!
You know, on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being, you know, really solid stuff, how solid is this case?
A 13?
This is the real deal.
For us in the administration and running the headquarters to have it in our backyard, it gave us an opportunity to really get our teeth into something so close to home.
How large relative to the car and since we know the distance you claim it was about from the car, how large does that make the object?
Do you have any idea?
We've estimated it to be somewhere between 24 and 30 feet.
It's round at the top folks and then at the bottom there's a sort of a second smaller rounded area and below that What almost look like bubbles.
I don't know how to describe them.
It's like a spike.
It's like a laser spike is what it looks like to me.
But it's really concave.
Part of what the witnesses gave us, other than Stan, is the witnesses in the park had the object go directly over them.
So they were afforded the opportunity to actually look up into it from the bottom.
And some said it looked like a black hole in the bottom.
That's correct.
Like it was open.
A couple of the witnesses actually were able to give us some of the structural detail.
There appeared to be some sort of framing like rails of some kind.
Yes.
That crisscrossed Either in like double inverted triangles or a star.
But it was hollow and the light was coming from the core inside.
From that black core?
Right.
So inside what they saw as this deep hole the actual light or the beam that was seen throughout and you can see even in the stop frames you can see that little white That's right.
That was coming from deep inside.
All right.
Hold it right there while we take a break here at the bottom of the hour.
George Zeiler is my guest, Deputy International Director and Field Investigator for PUFON.
I'm Art Bell.
What I would suggest to you all is to make your way to my website
while we're talking about the Stan Romanek case and take a look-see at these videos.
And I actually recommend video number two and that you watch it to the very end.
You'll shake your head at the beginning with a shaking camera and all the rest of it,
but then you'll get the stills.
And then most importantly at the end, you'll get this incredible gathering of witnesses.
Then all have obviously seen the same thing.
George Zeiler is here, Deputy International Director and Field Investigator of MUFON, the largest organization of its kind investigating this case.
And I asked him on a scale of 1 to 10, where is this case?
And he just said a 13.
It's a big case.
Take a look at the video and decide for yourself.
Once again, George A. Zeiler, that's Z-E-I-L-E-R.
Uh...
George, you know, I'm going to just take you back for one second, because it's bugging me and I can't let go of it.
When I asked you about your experience at Nellis, I caught a hitch in your voice.
Sort of a, that's an interesting question, with kind of a hitch in your voice, like there was something that was there that you haven't told us.
Well, there might be.
Alright, then would I safely conclude, then just so I can dismiss this, there is something that if it happened you could not still tell us about.
Would that be fair to surmise?
No, you know, I just know how the government works.
The truth is, Art, I was still skeptic after I left.
But in my prior investigations, I had a partner who's done a number of shows for A&E, like the Case Landrum case.
I was still skeptic after I left.
But in my prior investigations firm I had a partner who's done a number of shows for
A&E like the Kay Flandrum case.
And he's a police officer and well, you know, he kept challenging me with little pieces.
Well, how do you explain this?
How do you explain that?
Because, you know, being an investigator, you have a discipline that you have to go through in order to sort facts from fiction.
Yes.
And you run into a lot of fiction, just like, of course, just like in ufology and studying the paranormal.
The majority of the reports you get are Really, people seeing a star or a planet in a car and they're moving so they see it moving and subsequently they believe that they saw something or you get little lights in the sky.
Lots of that, sure.
Okay, it's rare that you get something with the dynamic that this does and then have multiple videos.
That's one of the other things that we got out of this was multiple videos.
Well anyway, Ken kept challenging me Until finally I started seeing things about UFO that caused me concern and questions.
And questions to an investigator is like feeding an alligator.
Uh, sure.
Sure.
Um, now listen, this UFO hit Stan with some kind of beam, some kind of beam.
And, um, I asked Stan, If there were any effects from it when I had him on the program and he said, as of yet, no.
But you believe that that did affect him in some way, don't you?
Well, you know, one of the things that we do, we always have concern for our witnesses and the things that might happen to them.
You know, one of the things that we're studying is, are there physiological effects?
Are there psychological effects?
Yes, right.
The psychological effects, looking at the video, are apparent.
I mean, initially, everybody's stunned.
I mean, it's like they're in shock.
It is shock.
And because it's sort of surreal, you're kind of going into this slow motion thing.
Now, Stan, having had these experiences, Stan is really the enigma of this case.
In what sense?
The case with being able to see the ball and the things that we'll ultimately be able to extract, things about the propulsion systems, their external parts of the craft as they're able to take the film apart.
How many of you have seen art?
Briefly, have you ever seen five in one month?
No, I've seen two in my life.
One really, really close encounter, which I reported to move on.
You see, when that happens, we go through a filtering process to sort them out.
All of a sudden we're hit with this one where we've got multiple witnesses, multiple videos, but it still centers on stamps.
When I first interviewed him and I find out that he's videoed four or five in the month of September in different locations in the country, one of them being September 20th at Daniels Park, which was talked about by Stan and also when you had your other guest on the... So in other words, at this point the investigation centers on Stan because these things are obviously or apparently interested in Stan.
So obviously effects that any effects on Stan would be a central question.
Right. So part of the focus really centers now on why are they interested in Stan?
Yes.
You know, why this recurring... and September wasn't the only time.
He was shown on Fox TV in December 2000 when he had another close encounter in a place called Red Rocks Park.
That was just, you know, like eight or nine months before that, a major sighting.
So to me as an investigator, the witnesses and the craft And the electrical effects of when it goes into the cloud and the burst of lightning.
I mean, those are all really central to this case.
This case.
The September 30th sighting.
But when you look at the whole case beyond that, you have to say, why are they looking at Stan?
So one of the things that we did, and he had after his September 20th sighting, and I talked to Stan today, and he's allowed me to discuss a little bit of some of the things that he's done, but we aren't done with medical examinations.
Oh.
We have him doing, but he had some lesions.
Oh.
And we put under black light the fluoresce.
Oh.
An unusual phenomenon.
That is not common to that type of close encounter.
Lesions that fluoresce under light.
Now that's pretty interesting.
Some were yellow green and some were orange.
Oh really?
Over what portion of his body?
Mostly the bottoms of his feet and around his wrists.
Oh!
Isn't that interesting?
What do the people who have done the examination say about these lesions?
We don't know yet.
I mean, that's part of the investigation that's not concluded.
Oh.
And it's ongoing.
That's why I say we haven't finished the medical examinations that need to be done on those things.
But it's unusual.
The second physiological thing that was unusual was the bird attraction during the course of that 30 days.
Yes, I recall him saying that.
How many birds during that time?
30 or 40 or 50 birds, you know, in various locations.
Would he hit his car windows and just as though they were disoriented because of his presence?
That's what it comes down to.
You know, there's lots of things that we could try and perceive.
We don't know what's causing it.
We're trying to find out.
But it is part of that phenomena that's really part of the mystery.
It's, you know, it's not common that we've ever heard.
In all the cases I've read and seen, and as you know, there's thousands.
Yes.
I've never seen that phenomena or read about it.
So it adds another piece into the puzzle that we don't know what it is.
And part of what we have to do now with Stan is we'll go back and do his family history.
And part of that goes back where his father was in the military, in the Air Force bases at the missile silos up in North Dakota.
So, you know, there could be linkage there, which is during the right time periods.
We don't know that.
But, you know, as we go and we interview more of their family and talk to those people, we'll get a better idea on how that all relates.
So it adds to the interest of the story.
What case can there be made that this was an intelligently controlled craft?
That's an easy one.
I mean, the video by itself, coupled with the initial eyewitnesses, here's a craft following the street line right over the top of the trees.
It comes to an intersection and does a 90 degree left-hand turn or going east across this park at 500 feet.
Okay?
Yeah.
We had another witness that had called in from your last show with Stan that actually called us and they have another video.
Now, we've not been able to get that video yet, but her comment exactly was this.
When I started videoing it, it was as if it knew we were there and it hovered.
And then it slowly drifted off away.
Now, part of the thing is, it was obviously not a helicopter.
It wasn't an airplane.
It wasn't any kind of plane structure that I've been able to determine that's known to us.
Okay?
It isn't a balloon, because balloons don't fly against the wind.
You know, we call it the National Weather Service.
You know, balloons don't go into clouds and create lightning bolts that the weather service doesn't detect.
Not usually.
That was one of the phenomenas that we can't understand is that we saw the bolts of lightning.
There was no thunder.
There was no sound.
You know, here's a craft that's making these obtuse angles and movements.
And it's like they were putting themselves on display.
That's one of the things that catches me in this one, Art, is they've been known to happen like that, but then they instantly blink out.
Yes, and I think people are right to say, look, if these things had all of this technology, I mean, after all, we already have stealth technology for radar, and we probably have some sort of visual stealth technology developed by now as well.
I'm sure we do.
In fact, I know of some things I probably shouldn't talk about.
And so, you know, a craft like this, if it did not want to be seen, surely would not be seen.
Absolutely.
So it must have wanted to be seen.
Now, this is a very important case, along with some others.
It's a very, very important case and it makes me ask, why Why feed it to us this way, a little bit at a time?
These very solid cases, like the one we're talking about right now with Stan, why would they sort of let themselves be seen every now and then, even wanting to be seen every now and then, and yet not make contact?
To come all that way, if in fact they have, or through another dimension, wherever they have come from, and not make contact.
It doesn't make sense.
Are you an investigator, Art?
No.
You know, those are the kinds of questions that drive us crazy.
Unfortunately, we don't have answers.
We don't know what their purpose are, we don't know who they are, we don't know where they come from, and we certainly don't know what they are.
We certainly know that if they to do the things that you see them do even in that film
when it appears that it blinks out it really doesn't blink out it actually goes from the east
back to the west to the mountains and it just gets completely out of the the the frame of the of the
film and then it darts back in is there a way based on uh based on that and and the rough
geography involved And the time frame involved.
From frame to frame.
To make an estimation of speed of the object.
Sure.
And we're in the process of doing those calculations.
Of timing.
You time the cameras.
Particularly in this case where we had some reference points.
It's easier.
We do some... I mean it's all mathematical.
But the speeds are beyond anything...
We're capable of doing in the atmosphere.
Sure.
You know, and we're a heavy oxygenated atmosphere.
So you bet that makes it they just do things that that I've never seen craft do.
And having come from an Air Force background and an interest in flying and, you know, air type structure, it's just amazing the things that these things do.
Have you come to a personal conclusion, George, about what we're dealing with?
In other words, you certainly said earlier you thought it was extraterrestrial versus some sort of government experiment.
Have you come to a fairly firm conclusion in your own mind, after all of these investigations, that we are dealing with some sort of alien or dimensional life form?
My personal opinion is absolutely yes.
Absolutely yes, huh?
And it's not just from the investigations of sightings.
That has to do with my investigations into Air Force and military documents that have been declassified.
Our government's knowledge of this particular topic is enormous.
Well, I would think it better be.
I mean, they always say exactly the opposite, that they don't know a damn thing about UFOs.
That really is not the case.
When freedom of information requests are made and documents are received, it's not the case, is it?
Well, there are lies, and then there's damn lies, and then there's government lies.
And that's probably the biggest lie in the world.
It's a secret, and it's a box that they're painted into that they don't know how to get out of.
In your opinion, George, why is our government keeping their knowledge of this phenomena secret?
Why do you think they are?
Well, you know, I think, Art, I can answer that in a couple of different ways.
If you go back historically, To 1947, 1948 through maybe 1953-54, we just came out of a world war.
We just detonated this explosive device that, you know, destroyed a couple of cities.
And there was fear of the Russians gaining and having access to the same access to the
German scientists that we had and we didn't know how far along they were with their technology.
And then along come the UFOs and the fear was that it was the Russians, the Russians
thought it was the Americans and so you had this going back and forth.
There was always concern that they could be misconstrued as incoming because they couldn't
decipher what they were militarily.
During the height of the Cold War and the post-war years, totally understandable, actually.
But that was then, and this is now.
Well, as that evolved, Art, you have then the intelligence services start gaining power with the information that they glean.
Now, there's a lot of evidence to believe that There's actually been craft crashed and they've been retrieved and been reverse engineered.
So much evidence, George, that is so much secrecy that even our own congressmen and senators, elected representatives, cannot get the information.
Even presidents of the U.S.
that have requested information cannot get The information they seek.
They cannot get the truth.
The truth may be out there, but it's way out there if a president can't get it.
Now, maybe we'll pick up on that when we get back.
We're taking a break here at the top of the hour.
My guest is George A. Zeiler, who is the Deputy International Director and Field Investigator for MUFON.
I'm Mark Bell and this is Coast to Coast AM.
It is, that would be me, George A. Zeiler, Deputy International Director and Field Investigator for MUFON is
my guest and he will be right back.
Music Once again, here is George A. Zeiler and welcome back,
George.
Thank you, Eric.
Let's see, where were we?
We were talking about the bomb at Nagasaki and Hiroshima and all we've done and, you know, what they might be doing.
Whether they might be observing us for some reason and not contacting us directly for some reason, but sort of giving us the This slowly dispersing medicine that will eventually come to some sort of crescendo of realization that, as I was pointing out, even presidents have been unable to get information on what's going on.
You know, I had to laugh about that because, you know, Barry Goldwater, when he was the chairman of the Armed Services Committee, and he was running for president in 1960, And on top of that, he was an Air Force General.
Oh, yes.
And I discovered copies of his memorandums, which were numerous, but of particular interest when he went to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and General LeMay told him, look, don't even go there.
You don't have a high enough clearance.
We're not going to tell you.
I have audio tape of his saying that, by the way.
Incredible.
I have to twist your arm to get you to give us a copy for our museum.
Yes, yes, I have audio tape of that.
Incredible.
That is a true story.
And also, I've heard several others.
I mean, I had a caller who said he went to a book signing for Jimmy Carter.
And you know how it is.
I do anyway.
The book signing, your head is down and boy, you're just signing one after another after another.
And this gentleman said he went up to Jimmy Carter and somehow managed to capture his attention and said, Mr. President, you promised you would tell us what you would find out about UFOs when you got into office.
And Jimmy Carter just stopped cold and began, actually a tear appeared in his eye.
And he looked at this fellow and without comment, it went on.
But in other words, he was extremely emotional at even being asked that question.
And so, you know, obviously the average person like myself is going to think, well, my God, if presidents of the U.S.
don't know about this or it's so secret, if they do know, they cannot talk.
Then it must be a secret so sovereign So well kept, hard as that is to believe that there's almost a government operating outside a government to keep it.
You know, I don't know how to respond to that because I don't know that that's a fact.
But, you know, as I've been involved in politics for a long time and I'm a constitutionalist, I certainly am disturbed that The infringement upon we the people, because the government is supposed to be us.
When our own representatives are denied information by the intelligence community, it almost lends itself to questioning what's going on.
Well, I mean that steps easily around what I just said.
It's a government operating outside the constitutional Um, guidelines that we all think we have to operate by, even the government, right?
Well, that's why it's important when citizens and people like the people in MUFON are here, and that's what we're trying to do.
I mean, we're trying to gain the scientific evidence, and, you know, as you know, we have long lists of people with highly toutable credentials, those of which you've had on your own show.
Stanton Friedman.
So of course.
A number of people, John Schuessler.
On and on and on.
Right.
Yes, indeed.
Absolutely.
You know, so what we try and do and you know, we're an organization that's virtually volunteers and we rely upon the contributions of people and it's difficult when you don't have the funding that the U.S.
government has.
And when everybody is ridiculed, it cuts off the sources of funds to keep going.
I mean, it's difficult for us.
How do you feel about people like Dr. Greer and others who are trying to force the door open and force congressional hearings and bring witnesses in front of the government and just shove this right in their face until something breaks?
What do you think about those tactics?
Having looked at that, and you know that's a major question that we at MUFON face, and as you know, Dr. Greer was one of our featured speakers at our last symposium.
Right.
The reason for that is, it's the only way that we have an opportunity for the American public to get the information.
The only thing that we have a right to, is a right to be heard.
And so, it's the only legal way that he can bring those witnesses forward is with immunity.
Well, we saw the First Amendment, or I wouldn't be here.
Well, the First Amendment is one thing.
It's another thing when you work in classified projects and you're forced to sign secrecy and oath agreements that Well, there are lots and lots of people listening to you right now who have signed such agreements and have information that would no doubt be of great value to you.
I mean, what do you say to these people?
They did sign the agreements.
They have to work with us to help us get the hearings.
So that we can be heard.
So that they can be heard.
So that their stories can be told.
Even if that means violating their agreements?
Congress has the ability to give them immunity.
And waive the implications of those agreements.
That is certainly true.
The Congressional hearings and the method that Dr. Greer is going forward with is the correct way to do it.
It's difficult.
We have to get mainstream people to understand that we're doing the science.
You see, the government controls the scientific community in that it funds the university projects.
It funds the projects for the military.
So if they step into areas that they don't want them to, they cut their funding off.
Here's another angle, George.
Here's another way of looking at it that might or might not be true.
Our government is charged with protecting us.
Uh, against terrorists, other enemy nations, people who would wish us harm, or dead, and we know there are plenty of those out there.
That's our job.
To protect us with the military against, uh, threats of that sort.
Now, with regard to UFOs, there are a lot of people who believe, well, the government knows about them, but cannot do a damn thing about them.
In other words, the technology in use is so far beyond even their understanding that they are defenseless against them and what they wish to do whether it's picking up cows, shining lights or beams on people like Stan or whatever all else they do.
Our government can't do a damn thing about it and because they are defenseless they choose to ignore the fact of their existence publicly altogether because they can't do anything about it.
And they don't want people, they don't want people to know.
That's right.
That's correct.
Which could cause people to be upset.
But you know, unlike, it's just like the terrorists.
I think the American public has shown a tremendous resiliency.
They have, yes.
And it's my belief that we have the right to know the truth.
I mean, if we're facing an adversary, but you see, we don't know whether these Aliens and we'll use that term because alien Just means that it's it's foreign to us.
Yes.
It's different than we are right Okay by taking that time When we have alien technology and when we have something that's foreign that's going on we have the right to know what we're up against that's been the rallying point of our people forever in our right to speak and like this and talk about subjects without scrutiny of government is part of what makes our culture great.
So you would cite the 9-11 events as proof the American public could psychologically
and in many other ways handle information that we are in fact being visited by some
things.
It could be, here's another one I want to throw at you.
A good portion of my audience, George, agrees these things are out there and they are being
seen and people are having experiences like Stan had, but that they are evil entities.
And I don't think that that can be any more ruled out than any of the other things we
might discuss here as possibilities.
That they're evil entities of some sort, you know, and these people are literal believers in the Bible, and the Bible says there will be things like this, and that when they appear, they will be evil entities.
And so a substantial portion of the population believes that.
You can't really rule that out, can you?
Actually, I think that there's probably a lot of truth to that.
Not necessarily in the sense of the religious aspect, but from the things that have happened.
We talk about animal mutilations.
We talk about the physiological effects on people Like Stan and other people who've had these close encounters.
Right.
Not exactly warm and fuzzy, huh?
Right.
Now, there are a lot of people, once they have, but to go back to the resiliency issue, the people in this video is a classic example, where while the initial shock, when it wore off, they actually talked in terms of elation.
They had this warm sensation.
They, you know, I mean it was incredible to them.
You know, all of a sudden it became a reality instead of speculation.
Yes.
Okay, and that's what a close encounter does.
We're seeing now in the thousands of reports that we get at MUFON, and we get them from all various sources, but, you know, one of the problems, Art, is this, and it's part of the reason why I got really involved in MUFON, is Investigations in the paranormal and UFOlogy have always been in the past tense.
The crafts change, what they see changes, the technology changes, but it seems like our technology is always behind time.
So we're always backward looking.
You know, we see all these things, you know, and we observe them and record them and we analyze them and then we see the coloration changes and we see the effects on people.
But, you know, as those transitions happen, the real time is their technology is always ahead.
It always just seems to be ahead.
We're looking at ways to try and find new ways to approach the investigation, the analyzation,
the sciences of it, so that we can be more forward thinking the parallel.
Because you hit it on the head.
When you're behind the curve, you're defenseless.
And there's nothing to believe that they're totally benevolent.
Well, there's a pretty good basic question of the thousands of reports of all this that
move on as processed.
It's a good thing.
If you were to guess, what percentage of the people regarded what happened to them as a warm and fuzzy situation that made them feel wonderful and great, as opposed to those who weren't so happy with what happened to them?
You know, I really can't answer that question.
Okay.
Because I don't know.
Well, there are a number of people who have written books that suggest this phenomena is real, but it's not warm and fuzzy little creatures at all, and that we all need to be very wary of what we're dealing with here, that it may not be something with our best interests in mind, and as you pointed out, with what's been done to cows, and some people and you know this whole thing it just doesn't necessarily seem friendly it doesn't seem overtly hostile because after all and I agree with the people who say with that technology they could vaporize us well right probably they could so they haven't done that yet so not overtly hostile but not real friendly either well now when you say they haven't done that yet they haven't done that yet that the public knows about or that we can prove
That doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
Vaporizing us?
Sure.
Well, you have a point there.
I mean, we don't know.
Well, we do know, okay?
We do know that we have injured a human.
We do know that we've had animal mutilations.
We do know now that there have been abductions.
You know, and a lot of those are pretty ugly.
If you really talk to people like Dr. Mack, Dr. Hopkins, and people who deal with Dr. Jacobs, I mean, these are renowned people.
Harvard Medical School, Harvard Law School, I mean, these are really educated, highly tuned professional medical people who just simply say, you know, this is a real phenomenon.
Now, what we don't know is Where our government lies in that.
You know, we don't know the connection.
Is there a connection?
And those are some of the major questions that we continue to deal with.
but we do know that when these things land they damage plants
they leave radiation trace elements that we investigate and
propagate you know they emit electronic electromagnetic radiation
and they stop our cars they affect our airplanes instruments
those are things that we know those aren't things that are speculation those are things
that we know happen but we don't know
why they happen or how they happen or what the intent is
exactly and those are the questions that loom for us
But that's, again, when you throw questions at investigators, it's like feeding the alligators.
You just make them work that much harder.
But this is a problem of immense proportion that is serious for the people of this country and this world.
But all things told, you believe that our government has knowledge far beyond that which they admit publicly.
Would that be fair?
I know that they have more knowledge.
All right, George, hold on.
We'll be right back to you.
And we're going to take some calls as well for George A. Zeiland, who's in a position to know, in a position to know.
Deputy International Director and Field Investigator of MUFON, the world's largest civilian UFO research organization.
And I know a lot of you out there have questions.
Some of them which George no doubt cannot answer.
Some of them which nobody we know can answer or will answer.
I'm Art Bell and this is Coast to Coast AM Works.
Okay, in a moment we're going to open the lines for you to speak with George A. Zeiler.
Deputy International Director and Field Investigator for MUFON.
An unusual opportunity coming up next.
All right.
Tomorrow night, John A. Keele is here.
It's all about the Mothman prophecies.
There's a big movie coming out with Richard Gere and company about the Mothman prophecies.
And the man to talk about this is certainly John A. Keele.
He'll be here tomorrow night.
It'll be interesting because that's one subject I know very, very little about.
I've heard about it all my life, but I really have no idea what the Mothman prophecies are all about.
I'm back now to George Zeiler.
George, are you there?
Certainly, Art.
Good.
George, I've got a number of people who would like to speak with you.
How about that?
Great.
Okay, let's see what we run into, and it can be anything.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with George Zeiler.
Hi.
Hello, Art.
This is Brooke.
I'm calling from the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont.
Yes, sir.
Homeland.
Yes, sir.
I heard of a very interesting phenomena yesterday on, of all stations, the USA Network, which is very mainstream.
Yes, it is.
And I heard George talking about strange things occurring with birds.
And I also heard you have a program one night about strange things happening with birds in Tennessee.
That's correct.
Yes, a radio station in Tennessee.
Yes.
Well, what I heard yesterday on the USA Network was Thousands of flock of thousands of birds electrocuted themselves over Washington, D.C.
What?
Yes!
That's what I said.
I tried calling you last night and could not get through.
It was yesterday afternoon at 2 o'clock.
Electrocuted themselves in what fashion?
The reporter seemed to say, I was so startled by it that it just blew me away, the reporter seemed to say that they had caused so much electricity with themselves somehow from being frantic or misguided or disorientated that they electrocuted themselves.
Well, well, well.
I'm going to have to follow up on that.
I don't have a story on it.
Somebody, no doubt, will send me one and I'll get it on the air, sir.
Or perhaps one of your callers might call in on this to back me up.
Oh, I guarantee we'll get some information on the air and we'll find out about it.
As you know, birds are involved in the case that we've been discussing tonight.
Yes, I heard Mr. Zeiler mention that.
That was why I wanted to call in.
Well, maybe we should ask this then.
He has a comment on this.
Yes, George, do you?
I have a question.
What was the station that you heard it on?
He said he heard it on USA Radio Network News.
So, we're going to have to find out about it.
I can guarantee within about a half hour here, we'll have a story on it from somebody out there.
But birds have been involved in a number of UFO cases, haven't they?
Many.
Many.
Nothing like that, though, where they would electrocute themselves.
Well, a lot of people believe, scientists, biologists believe that birds migrate along and navigate by magnetic lines that are on the Earth, right?
There's no question about that.
And UFOs have been long reputed to disrupt electromagnetic fields and, as you pointed out earlier, stop cars and do all kinds of weird things that might involve certainly electromagnetism of some sort.
So birds acting strangely and out of character around UFOs might not be a big surprise, George?
Not to me.
I mean, I've read... I've never seen it.
Nor have I investigated it, but I've read a lot of cases where it's happened.
But this is pretty unusual, the case that Brooke brought up, where they would actually electrocute themselves.
I see them being disoriented, but I'd be real interested in the science.
Well, in the case you mentioned of the radio station in Tennessee, I interviewed The manager of that station.
And they had to end up, by the way, moving the radio station.
Some really odd things happened and there were electromagnetic pulses that destroyed the phone equipment, almost all the electronic equipment of the station and some adjacent businesses.
Birds were actually brought out of mid-air, George, which were burned to a crisp.
I mean, we had pictures of birds With their wings, uh, mostly burned off.
Uh, they just virtually fell out of the clear sky when this pulse hit.
And that's what he was, uh, talking about.
So, so birds, very interesting.
Um, West of the Rockies, you're on the air with George Zeiler.
Hi.
Hello.
Hello, where are you?
Uh, I'm in Apple Valley.
Alright.
Um, I just want to relate a story you guys might find interesting.
Sure.
Um, in 1959, my dad, was in Logan, Utah with about 100 other guys.
They were building a church.
My mom was there as well.
Lo and behold, they saw something flying in the sky coming their way.
It was the classic saucer-shaped craft, but it was wobbling.
It went right over their heads and towards some hills.
Of course, the guys had some binoculars and stuff, so they started passing around.
Well, the craft crashed into the side of the mountain and they could only see it with the binoculars.
At first they thought it went behind the mountain.
Then when they got in the binoculars, they're like, no, it wrecked there.
And they saw it roll down the mountain and into the reservoir there in Logan, Utah.
Wow.
So, uh, my dad told me this story, you know, many times.
I love the story cause UFOs are fascinating.
And, uh, In the late 80s, I was working in a bookstore and I ran into a guy who was buying UFO books constantly.
And he happened to be an underwater salvage guy.
Hmm.
Hmm.
So I told him my dad's story.
He got together with my dad.
They got a map out.
He mapped out precisely the spot where it fell into the reservoir there.
Really?
And he flew up there and he dove the area.
The only thing that was disappointing was, well, of course, there was no UFO there.
Uh-huh.
Um, but there was a dive school there.
There was a what?
A dive school at that spot in the reservoir.
What's a dive school?
Uh, where people do scuba diving.
Oh, I see.
Okay.
So they did diving there, and I guess there was some kind of, uh, they did military training there as well.
So if there was anything there... Long gone.
It's not one that rings a bell, but that was my question.
heard any accounts of this because you said everyone saw it.
Well I have not.
George, is there anything in Move On records that would...
It's not one that rings a bell but that was my question I was going to ask him if they
saw any follow up military aircraft or anything like that because generally my experience
with something like that is those areas get sealed off very quickly and there's no access
to them.
Yeah well he said there was military diving there so you know as he pointed out...
That probably answers the question.
It probably does yes.
Alright, first time caller on the line you're on the air with George A. Zeiler of Move On.
Hello.
Hi Art, this is Scott calling from Austin.
Yes sir.
And I have a question concerning a...
People who have been abducted by UFOs or allegedly abducted by UFOs.
Okay.
Do you feel that reports of this kind were on the rise, especially after the release of the movie Close Encounters?
Also, I've had my own experience with a UFO.
Which took place in February of 1990 in Hayes County here in Wimberley.
It was a triangular UFO and it did not make a sound and I saw it between 10 30 and 11 o'clock at night and I looked around for people to make this report to and I was finally led to Move on.
And they sent an investigator out to talk with me about it.
And over the course of our interview, we called the Hays County Sheriff's Department to get transcripts of the reports of the UFO, because I discovered that the night I made my report, there were several other reports made.
Oh.
Now, when we called Hays County Sheriff's Department, and asked for transcripts.
I was put on hold for about seven minutes or eight minutes and the guy came back on said we have no reports of any UFOs on that night or any other night.
All the reports had just mysteriously disappeared.
Well, a former congressman from New Mexico Uh, went back and, uh, tried to find all the reports you may remember on, uh, what occurred at Roswell and, uh, found to his dismay that, uh, they had all been destroyed.
All the reports had been destroyed.
So, uh, not too unusual, George?
Absolutely not.
Um, in fact, in the case of Stan Romanek, here the case we've been talking about tonight, One of the things in the video that was very obvious was that there was a police car running code.
Code meaning red lights and siren.
Right.
There was an obvious fire truck running with red lights and sirens.
You can hear the difference in the sirens.
And then there was also an ambulance that ran.
I personally contacted every police agency in the Denver metropolitan area, in that area.
And none of them had any reports, not only of the UFO, but they didn't have any reports of anybody running on an emergency run on an hour and a half time frame.
Gee, and people wonder where the men in black stories come from.
Now, it's interesting because one of the things that I have set up is I'm going to have the opportunity to speak with the chief of police in the particular city where this took place, and I'm going to let him listen to the video and then explain what it is.
But you know, Buckley Air Force Base is also in Denver, and that is the satellite input feed place for Cheyenne Mountain, and they have all the radars and everything now.
The UFO was obviously very low at the beginning, but it went up into the cloud cover at 17,000 feet.
Where it would be seen by radar if it was reflected.
And they didn't have any reports of that, nor did the aviation, Federal Aviation Agency, or the Weather Service, didn't pick it up on radar.
Amazing.
Which means that it had stealthy qualities because it was there.
Now, Buckley...
It either means that or it means that you simply couldn't get the reports.
Well, I had 11 witnesses that said that they had called Buckley to report it.
And Buckley said nobody reported it?
That's right.
Which is ironic, and just for the individual, I'd like to have his first name if I could.
For Lawson.
Oh, no, he's already gone.
Oh, okay.
But, you know, the fellow... Well, that brings something up, though.
For people who want to follow up with you, like that man, or any others, how does somebody get hold of you?
Do you have a public email address?
Yes, I do.
It's AUFO4U at AOL.com.
A-U-F-O-4-U?
That's right.
A-U-F-O for you?
That's right.
A-U-F-O for you.
Then the...
Is that F-O-R-O-R-O-N?
Why do they have to do that?
The energy that's lost of talented people like John Mack and all of our consultants,
Why do they do that?
I mean, if there are 13 reports made, I guess it's irresistible.
them in working together in concert with our government rather than trying to discover
what they know.
Well, that's a big question.
Why do they do that?
I mean, if there are 13 reports made, I guess it's irresistible.
Without boring my audience to death with my sighting, I had a very close encounter sighting
along with my wife.
We contacted Nellis Air Force Base, not we, but the newspaper because it was seen by many
other people here in the area where I live, George.
Uh, we contacted Nellis.
And Nellis' response was, yes, uh, there was a secret mission, quoting them, that may have overflown the Pahrump Valley on the night and time in question.
However, the aircraft was a C-130.
Now, that was an insulting, insulting response, in my opinion.
To the reports of this silent triangle that flew over everybody here.
This is C-130.
Well, I flew in the Air Force as well, in C-130s in fact, and I can tell you, that's an insult.
So, you know, whatever agency it is, and there are many, from the police all the way, although the police, some of them, are getting better, to official government agencies, they simply are in total denial mode.
Sometimes, To the ludicrous point.
To the point where it's funny.
And it is funny.
You know, kind of like the, uh, if you remember the Air Force News Conference trying to explain away Roswell.
I don't know if you happened to catch that.
That was humor.
That was high humor.
It was camp.
It was so bad.
I was, at the time that that took place, I was only about three months old.
Really?
Oh yeah.
Uh, are you sure about, how old are you now?
I was born in May of 1947.
You were born in 47?
Yes.
Okay, well, I was born in 45.
Now, the news conference I'm referring to only took place a few years ago.
That was the one where they held up the dummies.
You didn't catch that one?
Oh, yes.
I mean, that was high camp humor as far as I'm concerned.
It was so awful.
Well, you know, I'll relate another one to you that just happened recently here in our own city.
That I live in.
Yes.
Again, Buckley called the police department because they had a radar sighting of something hovering over the southwest end of their installation and they requested the police department to go out and see if they could see it, which they couldn't because of the light clutter.
but on the instructions that they gave to the police department,
they indicated that if anybody calls from the media or from civilians
wondering what that is, just tell him that it's a supernova.
What?
Are you serious?
I'm sure a supernova, a supernova.
Well, that's if anything a little more if you have a daytime sighting
of a supernova to me, that's a little more worrisome than I think we're in serious trouble.
If we do.
Who thinks these things up anyway?
I don't know, but you know, they're gonna be pretty funny.
They gotta have fun with it.
You know, somewhere in a room, it's no doubt done by committee.
Supernova came up.
That's great.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with George A. Zeiler and Art Bell.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Hello.
Where are you?
Hamilton, Oregon.
Yes, sir.
This is old man Tim.
Yes, sir.
And I have a couple questions for George, and maybe he can help a little bit with a couple answers.
Well, we'll certainly try, sir.
Okay.
Go ahead.
Hello?
Yes, proceed.
Go ahead.
Hello?
Sir, you're on the air, so go ahead.
Okay.
I'd like to speak with George a minute.
George is right here listening to you now.
Right.
My first dealings with the E.T.s was about 58 years ago.
So I've had a leg up on some of this stuff probably by the time you fellas were born.
My first sighting was in 1947.
But I've made quite a study of the cattle mutilations and I've been in contact with one of the old military fellas that's I've been deeply involved with all of, even picking up some crisis that's been on your program.
I don't know that I should mention his name or not.
I don't mind.
Mr. Stone.
Okay.
Sergeant Stone.
Clifford Stone, yes.
Yes, and I visited with him personally in Roswell a little over a year ago, here last October.
And it seems, from what we can gather, the mutilations are being done.
They're testing the animals for the contamination, mainly of the nuclear fallout.
I know there's about 18 head up in Montana this year in one county, and there's silos every... Sir, can you hold on?
We've got a break coming up, and I'd like to hear what you have to say, so hold on through the break, and we'll come right back to you.
I'm Mark Bell.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
It certainly is.
George A. Zeiler from Mufon is here and we're going to continue this hour with your questions.
So stay right where you are.
Once again from Mufon, George A. Zeiler.
George, welcome back, and we've got a call holding, so please proceed, sir.
Yes, thank you very much, Art.
I have had a lady here that's been involved in abductions more than once back in the 70s, 75 and 79, but we've had ships coming in quite regularly in around close to their house up here in the foothills of Close to Pendleton and I have that noted in the book that I recently put out and also there's been sightings since and other people have also sighted him on the same evening to know that it's not a hoax.
But the one thing that I'm investigating now is I find all of these people in this family have a lot of health problems.
The missus had two different cancer surgeries.
And the father of the girl had his pancreas put there shut down on him and he isn't even 60 yet.
And the girl's about 30 and she's had two major surgeries in her throat for cysts and is suffering greatly now from many different, well her immune system is just zero I would say and she's only about 30.
And when she came into my book signing in September I got a little video, but she didn't even want to talk about it.
She's got some very, very bad hang-ups with the whole thing.
So again, physical manifestations, you believe?
Yes, absolutely.
She's had two surgeries in her throat up in Jackson Hole, Wyoming a little over a year ago, and now she's under treatment.
I'm trying to help her with herbs and such that should help.
Well, you know, there's a lot of data on that, and Tim, I would encourage you to contact me through my email site.
with the museum in Roswell, which I've kept close contact with, and they said that they
found quite a few people that have been abducted more than once that have health problems.
George, have you got any knowledge of that?
Well you know, there's a lot of data on that and Tim, I would encourage you to contact
me through my email site.
You know, one of the things that happens is people have different effects.
happens is people have different effects. Some people have had messages sent to them.
Some people have had messages sent to them.
Some people have come on and been given technology.
Some people have come on and been given technology. In fact, when you had Stanton Friedman on,
In fact, when you had Stanton Friedman on, we had an individual call from Amarillo, Texas
we had an individual call from Amarillo, Texas who we've lost track of, a man named Al from
Amarillo, Texas, and we've been trying to get in touch with him, but he was given an
extraordinary amount of technical data. There was a Lutheran pastor down in Texas that had
the same thing. No technical background at all, and all of a sudden they're giving this
physics equations, so to speak, on technical equipment. But then again, the manifestation
of medical problems is real common. A lot of them end up with a lot of fear and hate
toward the abductors.
It's either that or it's love.
A lot of people who have been abducted said they felt nothing but joy and love and happiness and all the rest of it.
And I always thought, well how could that be?
Unless they were affected in some way by those who snatched them up, because the natural human emotion would be fear and loathing, I think, in being kidnapped.
I mean, that's a violation.
It's like rape.
You've been kidnapped.
Absolutely.
How are you going to be happy about that?
But a lot of people come back happy.
And so the reason for that, I'm convinced, is that they've been What's the right word?
Brainwashed.
That's right, brainwashed.
Thank you.
And, you know, I think it's one of the problems within the ufology community in that, you know, we talked about earlier, Art, that, you know, we need to be more future thinking instead of this constant regressive investigation process where we're constantly looking into the past.
I feel Dr. Jacobs has a realistic way of looking at this all.
Very much so.
I think David Jacobs, in fact, he's going to be one of our feature speakers at this year's symposium, which is going to be held in Rochester in New York in July.
But his is a minority view.
Well, I don't think that any single person is right.
That's my personal opinion.
I think what's happened is The individual nature of a ufologist has always been criticism from their peers.
Rather than taking a collective investigative approach, like if you had a serial killer, you have a task force of multi-agencies get together in a think tank and use those kinds of tools to solve this.
Well, there's something I want to ask you about, George.
Since you're at the top of the heap and move on, what I have observed in ufology and, for
that matter, other paranormal matters, big controversies concerning the 12th, or the
10th planet, Nibiru, the whole thing, people accuse each other of stealing each other's
information.
There's horrendous amounts of infighting that goes on, jealousy, anger, people who get into
these terrible fights with each other within ufology.
Now, ufology...
It's hard enough to talk about under any circumstance because, you know, people are naturally skeptical, of course.
But when all this infighting goes on, this horrible infighting, it's my information.
I discovered it.
It just drives me absolutely crazy because it takes a weak case and hurts it, to be honest with you.
What are your comments on all this infighting that's going on?
Well, you know, I think Abraham Lincoln said it best.
A house divided, you know, will never stand strong.
I'm not so sure that it's not part of the process of disinformation, keeping that turmoil going.
I happen to stand aside from it and I don't get caught up in the fray.
and refused.
That's hard.
Oh absolutely it's hard.
I try to do just the opposite.
I try to bring those sides together through reason and because our only chance at solving and really understanding the phenomena.
I agree.
Is to enjoin forces and to move in a common direction.
I completely agree.
I think we have to get away from the traditional approaches that have gone on for 53 years.
My response to that has been, even at MUFON, is show me what you've done since 1947 and
what have we solved?
We've learned a great deal and we have an amazing amount of information.
We have a bunch of books written, but mainstream society is not an acceptable topic.
When you start getting into the anomalous such as cattle mutilations, it gets pretty
ugly.
I mean, because it's gory.
And it's not something you want to go out and just talk about on the street corner.
As bad and as hard as all of this is to contemplate and talk about, again, I say, you know, the
The specter of these ufologists tearing each other to pieces over this sort of thing just boils me alive and I just don't understand why it's going on.
It may be part of some sort of disinformation campaign.
It wouldn't take very much because people are human and they have egos, I suppose, and all you have to do is put a pin in the right place in an ego and it just goes nuts.
I'm always right.
The truth is that all of us may have a single piece.
We may be looking at such traditional approaches that we haven't looked to the real issues that may solve what it is.
We've come a long way in police science.
We've come a long way in our space science.
that you know having trust in a few individuals and that's what it boils down to, they have
trust in a few individuals and so they become icons and so they're automatically right.
But you know the synergistic effect of combining them Art is really what's going to propel
us into the future.
Even some of the very best people that I've dealt with who are really, really good people
have fallen into the trap of getting into these gigantic fights with other people in
the field and I understand how they fall into it and I understand how it happens but I also
understand that it has to be stopped somehow or a very difficult case is going to be impossible
All right, um, let's continue.
First time caller line, you're on the air with George Zeiler.
Hi.
Hi, my name is Kevin and I'm here at Fort Phantom in Abilene, Texas on KLIF.
Yes, sir.
I'm a I was a combat engineer from 1979 to 1982 and I'm a recent graduate of Abilene Christian University.
I've had an MRI before and I've witnessed many UFOs and even an abduction from about a thousand meters away.
Recently I just saw those 15 supposed the Russian space thing that fell into the sky above Abilene and you got a call in all the way up to Omaha Nebraska.
And I witnessed lights on the craft, not like something that was burning up.
Now through my studies, after my curiosity, I would like to know, have you heard of the Book of Death?
And the Necronomicon?
I haven't, George.
I'm sorry, I haven't either.
It was dug up with the Egyptian mummies.
And it's factual, and the Bible in the book of Job and 2nd Timothy refers to the book of death, and the book of death refers to the Bible.
Do you mean the book of the dead?
Yes, sir.
Uh-huh, okay.
Okay, and I would like to know if you've noticed that the gate symbols that are supposedly to open up the abyss to let the serpent out of the abyss that Revelations refers to?
Yeah.
I have noticed that crop circles are these gate symbols to the book of death, and I would like to know if you've noticed that or studied at all.
Alright, well I have not, but there, George, is an example of a religious view, and that's what I was talking about a little bit earlier.
There is a substantial portion of the population, and that man represents it just quite well.
That believes that these are open gates and that evil entities are coming through them.
And it's not something that you can reject.
It's really not.
It's as open a possibility, certainly, as, you know, little beings coming from other planets.
Or people jumping through dimensional portals or whatever.
I mean, something real is going on, but can't rule that one out either, right?
Absolutely not.
And again, I would encourage Ken From Abilene to contact me because the information he has and his eyewitness reports...
valuable information to us.
You know, he's really right. One of the things that we've seen is the crop circles and ancient geometry. There's some
symmetry to that. And you have to be open to viewpoints of everybody to really find the solution.
You know, I don't think any of us have all the answers, and we're open to taking information from everywhere.
Okay.
Well, Cardline, you're on the air with George A. Zeiler.
Hi.
Oh, hello.
Art?
Yes, sir.
Okay, I've got a quick comment to put on before my question.
What seems funny to me is that they're not wanting to be covert.
If they were, they would be going to areas where humans are secluded from the rest of our global civilization.
So why wouldn't they be picking the areas where they're obviously going to be in the open to study us, maybe as we study our closest cousins, so to speak, like we study the monkeys?
And, uh, but going on to my question, um, talking before when you guys mentioned about, uh, the government being defenseless against this... Actually, sir, let me stop you for a second.
That was interesting, what you said.
Uh, you know, if you look at the way we do study monkeys...
We have some investigators that go into the field and at a distance observe their actions.
We have a very few investigators who have gone and actually lived with monkeys and apes in the wild.
That's very few of them.
And then of course we have, we do abductions.
In other words, we actually take monkeys and what do we do with them?
We put them in cages and frequently we experiment on them.
And how evil we must seem to the monkeys.
Yes.
So in what measurable way is what's happening to us any different?
Well, it could be just to view our reactions to different stimuli.
Yeah.
Well, maybe.
You know, that's speculation.
I'm sorry to interrupt in there.
All right.
You know, the historical aspect is that we've seen in petroglyphs, in hieroglyphs, If you were going to study the monkeys and you wanted to see them in their own environment, like you said Archie, you would go live with them or you would go to where they are.
UFOs and the symbols being there in art.
So if you were going to study the monkeys and you wanted to see them in their own environment,
like you said, Arch, you would go live with them or you would go to where they are.
You don't go into the secluded ones to find one separated from itself
necessarily.
Just to study that one.
You would want, if you were really doing it, you might look at that one, but you might also look at the masses.
Caller?
Yes.
Anything else?
Uh, yeah.
Getting on to the point of the government being defenseless, I was wondering if your guest or maybe any of the callers had ever heard of any military operation where a military vehicle, such as a guided missile or something, that either Proceeding or following the loss of control of such a vehicle, there was a UFO or some sort of aerial anomaly that had taken place before this vehicle left the control of its human controllers.
George?
I'm sure what the caller is referring to is the Vandenberg Missile Test, which is a pretty famous sighting where they launched the test missile and actually
they filmed the UFO actually going around the outside of the propulsion and then they
lost control of it and it debonated out over the ocean.
Is that what you were referring to, Colin?
No, I was more referring to having heard all the stories about just before a UFO sighting
or something a vehicle loses power or something goes dead, things go haywire, but more of
if there was any instances known to where a vehicle left control of the original controllers
government or somebody, and not really went out of control, but was definitely controlled by a separate force.
Or something took over, uh, control of one of our, uh, devices.
Well, I think what the example you gave us That's pretty close.
I don't know.
Is there ever a case that you've been aware of of somebody actually taking control?
No, and I think those are probably pretty closely guarded secrets if they do.
I would imagine so.
That would certainly be in the category of high defense classification.
And not declassified as of yet.
You, of course, know of the reports, George, of our ICBMs being Deactivated.
Deactivated by discs hovering above them?
Certainly.
Are you aware of the reports of the Russian ICBM sites that had actually begun to activate with ICBM sites that were activated by discs hovering above them?
Had you heard that?
No, but I heard that there were responses to Uh, UFO sightings that had caused ICBM troubles?
No, the Russians to think that it was us.
Indeed.
Launching.
Indeed, launching.
Yes, indeed.
All right, hold on.
An investigator and Deputy International Director for MUHAN, George A. Zeiler, is my guest, and we'll get right back to him.
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All right, back now to George Zeller.
George, I've got a request from Misty in Montague, California.
Please, she says, ask George to tell more about the Vandenberg missile thing.
I hadn't heard anything about this, so what do you know?
Say it again.
Oh my goodness, that's an awful large case in a very short period of time, but essentially they were firing a test rocket, a test missile, downrange.
Right.
And when it launched, And they always photograph it just like they do any of the missile launches at Cape Canaveral.
And as it's going up into the atmosphere, on the film they showed it going around the warhead.
It just virtually kept circling around it until it went out.
Then they lost the guidance system and it went out over the ocean and self-destructed.
Would these be, uh, was that, now we see them, from where I am here, we see the Vandenberg shots go up.
Uh, they're quite spectacular if they're held just after, uh, sunset.
Really neat to watch.
Uh, was that one of the ones sent out over the Pacific, uh, as a target for, you know, a Star Wars type, uh?
No, no, this was actually a, uh, this was a targeting, I believe, a targeting exercise.
Right.
What we can determine.
And they were looking at guidance systems and, and accuracy.
Uh-huh.
So something circled it.
There must be video that exists of this.
I've never seen it.
Sure.
There was a large, it was like a ball of light going all the way around the nose cone of it, the actual warhead, as it went up and out.
A fairly controversial case.
Was there any official explanation for it?
No.
The truth is, it probably didn't happen, according to the Air Force.
I see.
But that's not much different than saying, well, it is the Air Force doing these things, yet they send up fighter jets to chase them.
And yet you never hear about that.
That's right.
So, the sightings by the pilots, there's always a swamp gasser, or you know, they just happen To see Aurora Borealis.
Mm-hmm.
You know... Swamp gas.
These are experienced people, but yet they discount the individual to eliminate the incident.
And that's part of the psyops.
About a week or two, I asked somebody about swamp gas.
And actually, I've never heard anybody report swamp gas.
I've heard it given as an explanation to explain almost everything, but I've never really heard a report of swamp gas.
I'm not even exactly sure what swamp gas is.
I guess it's something that hovers over a swamp, theoretically.
But I've never really heard much talk of swamp gas, per se.
Always just to explain something that doesn't seem at all like swamp gas.
Well, that works.
That works!
You don't understand it, so... Swamp gas and... That's such a great explanation!
And stars exploding, right?
Supernovas.
Supernovas, sure.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with George Zeiler.
Hello.
Hello, um, this is Dave from Oregon.
Yes, Dave.
Um, well I saw something strange down in Merlin.
I'm not sure if it qualifies, but it was like a, like a cloud, but it was sort of like rainbow color, you know?
Yeah.
It was sort of like, it didn't look three-dimensional like a cloud, it just looked flat.
So have you ever heard of anything like that?
Well, there are many, many reports, are there not, George, of things that are somewhere in between a UFO and a cloud.
Are UFOs in clouds?
Are UFOs that morph from clouds and all kinds of combinations with clouds, right?
Absolutely.
But that doesn't mean that it's necessarily what you saw was it.
It's hard to say.
We could have been the clouds in the way that the light was reflecting and the moisture
content in the clouds or whether they were ice crystals.
I mean, there's a thousand different little scientific explanations.
Sometimes here in the desert, George, we get very high winds.
When you get very high winds, you get these odd-looking clouds that if you didn't know
better you'd say it's a gigantic UFO, but they're not.
They're clouds.
First time, call our line.
You're on the air with George A. Zeiler.
Hello.
Hello gentlemen, how are you tonight?
Fine.
I'm from Orange County, California.
When I first heard you, Art, describe what you have seen in your area, it just floored me.
My heart started pounding because it's been four years I've been living with this and I've seen this object that you're talking about.
The triangle.
Exactly.
I was leaving my facility in the systems engineer and it was around 11 o'clock at night and
as I was walking out from my vehicle I had turned and I was putting the key in there
and I looked over the top of the facility itself and I saw the object moving slowly
over the top of the facility, triangular shaped, very large, quiet, did not make any sound
and it was moving slowly over the top.
I didn't know what to think at the time and I could just sit there in disbelief and I'm looking and I blinked my eyes and I just knew it was there.
I got into my vehicle as it was moving over the back of the facility.
I opened up my sunroof on my Jeep so I could look out to the top of it as I was moving behind the building.
I was watching my direction on my computer.
Over the top, just on the ceiling, and it was viewing northeast.
I was watching it through the sun as it was moving over the back, and then this thing disappeared like a snap of a finger.
Fast.
And we have surveillance cameras at the facility, and I'm thinking, wow, maybe something got caught.
We've nailed it on tape, yes.
Yes.
I didn't say anything that evening, but the next day I went in and I talked to our security team because I work at a high-tech facility and we have lots of surveillance equipment.
They told me that the surveillance equipment was not working.
That's the only answer I got.
I didn't tell him I saw anything and I stayed quiet about the whole thing until just now.
Probably a wise decision.
Yes, exactly.
I guess my question for George too would be how many reports of this object have been seen?
Are we the only ones here that have seen it?
Now, I've seen this just on the other side of Pendleton.
It was moving from, I'd say, Pendleton towards Area 51, to be honest with you.
All right, let's ask George.
George, my wife and I both saw a triangular object.
It came about 150 feet over our heads.
It was gigantic, about 11 o'clock at night, totally silent, maybe 30 miles an hour.
As I say, triangular, solid, not like a balloon, which some people have suggested at all, but very solid and just totally black.
But there was almost a full moon and stars were bright and it was quiet out here and it just floated above our heads and floated on out toward Area 51.
And this caller is relating something just like that.
A lot of triangle reports, right?
I was just looking through the stack of reports that I had laid out, which over the last couple, three weeks, and there's probably 10 or 12 from around the world, not just in the United States.
I mean, this phenomenon is not just in the United States.
I mean, it's all over the world, but we're just triangles.
Now, just as an aside to that, Art, if you take a disk and turn it sideways to you like a dime.
If you turn the dime on its side, it's flat and you only see the side of it.
Correct.
But if you tip it up, it becomes round.
Right.
So the optical illusion of what we see isn't always necessarily the external structure of the craft itself, maybe the side that you're seeing.
Of course.
In Estes Park, Colorado, and ironic enough, it was September, and that's one of the things we're looking at is the timing of when they show up in relation to astronomical position.
Does there seem to be a relationship?
Sure, because the sightings run in flaps.
We call them flaps.
Right.
They come at different periods of time.
Like in September when Stan saw his on the 20th.
We had reports from 11 different cities seeing similar type objects.
And that's the other thing that's noted is that generally the sightings run consistently with various forms and colors.
But this one in Estes Park, a whole family saw the ball of light come up and it went over their house.
It was the size of the house, but it went over about 20 feet over the top of their house.
This is a daytime sighting.
They could look up underneath it and what they described underneath was, when they looked
at it from the bottom, was a triangle, which I found absolutely amazing.
So maybe the internal structure that you're really looking up to when you're looking up
vertically at a 90 or 70 or 50 degree angle, you're seeing the triangle, but when you see
it at a distance, it really is a circle.
Well, not this one, George.
The one that my wife and I saw, as I say, was about 150 feet above us.
We saw this, George, because my wife was able to somehow sense the movement over her shoulder, and so we caught it before it even passed over us, stopped the car, got out, and watched it as it approached.
Moved directly over us, and then we stood and watched it float out over the Front Valley toward Area 51.
And I say float, not fly, because at 30 miles an hour, there's no aerodynamic flight going on, and there's no sound going on.
You could hear crickets a quarter mile away.
This thing was defying gravity, and it was not a balloon.
I can assure you, it was not a balloon, so... It wasn't a jet propelled, because combustible engines... No, it wasn't jet propelled, nor was there any sound at all associated with its propulsion.
Well, it's very typical, and again, witnesses like your caller, those are important sightings from very, he sounds like a very credible man, who, again, we'd like to record the documents from that.
Because there may be correlations from other sightings.
Where, I wonder, does it all lead, George?
If we put a million, two million, five million reports together, where does it get us, ultimately?
Does it really break things open?
Does the government finally throw up their hands at two million reports and say, all right, we can't hold on to this anymore.
Here's the information.
Or does it not matter?
I mean, could we put together all the reports Well, you know, I think there's a couple of things that pass through my head when you ask me that.
The first one is, and it's a more global question, are we being psychologically conditioned?
Yes.
Okay.
You know what I'm talking about, the 2001 monolith concept.
Sure, sure.
Brainwashed.
Sure, it's one possibility.
Are we being induced for acceptance?
That's a question that hasn't been answered.
The answer on the lesser scale on is that information important?
You know, everybody views physical evidence differently and what they expect for proof is different for everybody.
Sure is.
But what we have to realize is there's all kinds of interactions.
But we may be missing the subtle interactions, so it's the combination of those things that someday is going to give us a key.
It's like the assassination of President Kennedy.
If somebody were to tomorrow get in front of a news conference and say, I killed President Kennedy, nobody would even notice.
There have been so many theories about who killed Kennedy and the whole cover up and all the rest of it.
That if the truth were to suddenly come out in a news conference tomorrow, nobody would even know it.
It would just be piled on with the rest of the, I don't know, 10 tons of information about that assassination and all the theories behind it.
Now, if we were to suddenly hear the absolute truth about UFOs, how would we know it?
George, I've had hundreds if not thousands of pictures on my website over the years of UFOs and I found and no doubt you know a high percentage of them may be fake but a lot of them I think are not and I find that when when I have a picture that's slightly blurry people say ha ha ha a blurry picture another blurry picture of a UFO if I have a very clear photograph they complain it's too clear gotta be fake too clear
So will there ever be, ever be, the kind of evidence that's irrefutable that just nobody can deny?
I don't think so.
Short, short, short of a letter.
The Stan Romanek film begins to reach that level.
But how do you get it out to the people?
Well, it's on my website.
They can go watch right now.
And I applaud you for that.
You know, that's what we all hope for.
And that's what we work for.
It's the ultimate question, Art.
And it's people like yourself and the thousands of volunteers in MUFON and other organizations that are working toward that and the education of the public.
The counter-psy-ops, if you will.
Well, I think I kind of like your theory of slow-release medicine.
That we are slowly being prepared for the truth, and then when it finally arrives, we'll all go, well, gee, what a surprise.
With a yawn.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with George A. Zeiler.
Hi.
Hello, George.
Hello, Art.
Hi.
This is David from Florida.
Yes, sir.
Hi, Dave.
I was contacted by UFOs in 1974 of December.
I was sleeping on my mother's couch, and I heard voices.
I thought my friends were like waking me up at night.
And when I looked up, there was a UFO in a cloud.
And it spoke.
It said, David, do you know of I?
And then a second one appeared.
It said, David, do you know of thee?
Then a third one appeared.
It said, David, do you fear thou?
And I answered back, I do not fear thee, because I do not know of thou, boo.
That was the first time.
There was another time, but a week later, I was arrested.
And from the substation, I was taken to Homestead Air Force Base.
And these two guys were talking to me.
They knew a lot about me.
Even my girlfriend's name.
Trying to get out what I just told you.
But I didn't tell them.
But, since this was 74, and I'm getting old, I thought I'd just like to get it off my chest.
Well, David, I would certainly like you to contact me because that's one of the things that I have great interest in.
There's no issue, but we don't have that much time to talk about it.
I'd be glad to talk to somebody.
I'm even willing to be hypnotized.
All right.
Well, there you go.
The email address for George is A-U-F-O-4, the number for you.
That's A-U-F-O-4-U-AT-A-O-L-DOT-COM.
And I'm sure you would appreciate that, right, George?
If he doesn't have an email, he can call us at Lupon Headquarters.
If you don't mind me giving the number out.
Not at all, go right ahead.
Okay, it's area code 303 932 7709 and that is also our hotline for any reports of UFO sightings.
All right, let's give that out again.
Area code 303-932-7709.
So that's a hotline.
So George, if you should come upon breaking information, if a flap should suddenly occur, would you be willing to contact my network?
Because I can get you on the air el pronto.
Absolutely.
We get continuous reports in all the time and you know that we'd be happy to supply that information for you.
And that would be a great service for us.
That again folks the hotline area code 303-932-7709 and George it has been a real pleasure having you on tonight and I hope that in fact I trust that we will have you on again soon.
I think your participation in MUFON is very valuable for MUFON.
Bringing the skills of a professional investigator to this is valuable.
Well, thank you so much.
It's been a pleasure for me and for all your listeners.
MUFON, again, is a 501c3 volunteer organization.
We're always looking for people and we're funded only by the donations of people.
So, whatever they can do to help us.
So, somebody would like to make a donation through email or that phone number.
They could get more info, right?
Absolutely.
All right.
George, thank you for being here.
Art, it's been my pleasure.
You have a good night.
Well, folks, that's it for tonight from the High Desert.
The High Moldy Desert.
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