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Jan. 23, 2002 - Art Bell

02:40:48

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - George Zeiler - MUFON, Investigating the Romanek UFO Sighting

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01:18:32

george zeiler

54:53

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		During the second hour, we're going to have, it's going to be a UFO coming up.
		We're going to have George A. Zeiler on, who is Deputy International Director and Field Investigator of MUCON, the biggest reporting agency of its kind in the world.
		He's going to be following up on the San Romanek case and a lot more.
		So that's coming up next hour.
		This hour, I would first like to welcome K-O-G-O-F-M, Kogo FM.
		Oh, ho, ho.
		San Diego, California.
		San Diego, Temecula, simulcasting with Kogo AM.
		Hey, now that's pretty cool.
		Kogo FM serves, they say, the beautiful Temecula Valley in southwest Riverside County, including Mariata, Lake Elsinore, Hemet, Wildemar, and Paris.
		And so, Kevin McCarthy and Cliff Albert, hey, hey, hey, all right, for you guys, FM.
		Very cool indeed.
		Very cool indeed.
		So it's 94.5 FM, 94.5.
		If you're down south, you might give that a listen.
		It's kind of cool coming in on FM, believe me.
		Now, let us peruse what's going on in the world.
		American Taliban, Mr. Walker is arriving at Dulles International, back in the USA, back in a good old USA.
		He is the American Al-Qaeda.
		That's what he's called.
		The American Al-Qaeda soldier, Taliban fighter, the American Taliban.
		There were also some British Taliban, about three of them, I think.
		Kenneth Lay, the embattled chairman and chief executive of Enron, here it is, top of the news again, resigned tonight from the bankrupt energy company but will remain on the company's board.
		Again, back to the war at the U.S. military base outside Kandahar, Afghanistan, FBI Director Robert Mueller said, members of Osama bin Laden's terror network detained here have, he said, provided valuable information that's prevented new attacks against the U.S. and targets worldwide.
		Now, that's interesting.
		The terrorists they're holding there, not here, mind you, have provided valuable information.
		Now, how willingly do you think they provided this information?
		Now, this is only being talked about at the fringes, but you know, that's me, the fringe.
		We talked for a while about whether or not you would torture a terrorist to save a lot of American lives.
		And I think the general consensus was, yes, you would, but you wouldn't use the word torture.
		There is something about using the word torture that Americans cringe away from, but arose by any other name would be still.
		Now, where did you say that next attack was coming from?
unidentified		Right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did we do that?
		Are we doing that?
		I don't know.
		I would imagine it's a possibility.
		Islamic militants are threatening, in their words, quote, all-out war, end quote, to avenge the killing of a Hamas commander in the West Bank and Yazar Arafat's Palestine authorities said can no longer expect to enforce any sort of truce with Israel.
		So things are going to hell in a handbasket rather rapidly in the Middle East.
		A colleague of mine is gone at a competitor's station in Phoenix, KTAR.
		I'm on KFYI.
		Was once on KTAR, but now KFYI is the home.
		A talk show host there, who did a show similar to mine called Mysteries Around Us, and it dealt with the paranormal and things we deal with on this program, did an odd thing last week.
		He predicted he would die January 19th.
		And that's exactly what occurred.
		He died of congestive heart failure Saturday at the age of 71.
		So he predicted the exact day of his own death and did so on the air.
		Sort of a moment to think about him and say goodbye to a colleague.
		You know, we've been talking about the second coming of our sun, and we have been past the peak now of the solar cycle for some time, but now we're getting interesting quotes from scientists.
		Joanne Jocelyn of the University of Colorado at Boulder, who ought to know, said, quote, the second peak has really swamped the first in some ways, she said.
		She is a solar scientist at the University of Colorado at Boulder.
		In terms of weather near Earth, the resurgence of solar storms has meant more aurora light showing for people at high and mid-latitudes in both the northern and southern hemispheres.
		Now, what's happening with the Sun is pretty strange, I guess not unheard of, but I don't recall twin peaks previously.
		There are certainly peaks and valleys as you go through the 11-year cycle, but what we're having right now, I think, is sort of unprecedented.
		And the Sun has been going totally berserk.
		Should be getting rather quiet about now, really, but it's not.
		It's a very interesting story from Dublin, Reuters story.
		It has been a pipe dream of inventors since Leonardo da Vinci, but has the secret of free energy now been found in Ireland?
		A cold stone house on a windswept Irish hillside may seem an unlikely setting for the birthplace of any such epic-making discovery, but here it is.
		It said an Irish inventor has developed a machine that will do no less than change the entire world.
		A 58-year-old electrical engineer who lives in the Irish Republic and intends, for security and public avoidance reasons, he says, to keep his identity secret has spent 23 years perfecting what he calls the Jasker Power System.
		It is, he says, an electromechanical device that's capable of nothing less than replenishing its own energy source.
		The Irishman is not alone in making such assertions.
		The internet is awash with speculation about free or zero-point energy.
		Many claiming to have cracked the problem using magnets, coils, even crystals.
		These claims come along every 10 years or so, and nothing ever comes of them.
		They're all cases of voodoo science, said Robert Park, professor of physics at the University of Maryland.
		Makers of the Jasker, the name derived from family abbreviation, say it can be built to scale using off-the-shelf components and can power anything that requires a motor.
		The Jasker produces emission-free energy at no cost apart from the installation.
		It's quite possible the most significant invention since the wheel.
		Now, they were given a demonstration of this device.
		Reuters was, and apparently rather impressed.
		In a demonstration for Reuters, a prototype roughly the size of a dishwasher was run for about 10 minutes using four 12-volt carb batteries as an initial power source.
		Emitting a steady motorized hum, the machine powered three 100-watt light bulbs for the duration.
		A multimeter reading of the battery's voltage before the device began showed a total of 48.9 volts.
		When it was switched off, the second reading showed 51.2 volts, indicating that somehow they had been reimbursed.
		The machine went on to run for about two hours while photographs were taken with no diminution in the brightness of the bulbs, which remained lit, by the way, during a short power cut.
		The draw on the batteries was estimated at more than 4.5 kilowatts.
		With any existing technology, the batteries would have been drained flat in one and one-half minutes, according to the inventor.
		So there you have it, yet another claim, which, of course, we can't really do anything with.
		But if I can find some way to follow up on this and I could get some really solid information, I would surely bring it to you.
		In a moment, I have kind of a local story for you involving my own area, and I'll tell you exactly the way it developed in a moment.
		Stay right where you are.
		Well, all right.
		This afternoon, I was at our own radio station here in Perump, KNYE 95.1, plug, plug, plug.
		And every now and then when I go down to the station, you know, we're playing, first of all, we're non-commercial right now in the sense that we're not running commercials.
		Aside from those that appear in the news, we're just running music from 6 in the morning till 10 at night.
		Non-stop.
		An ID here and there, but that's it.
		We're just going after all the listeners there are, and we're just financing it ourselves and running music.
		It's wonderful to listen to.
		Anyway, every now and then I'll go down in the afternoon and do 30 minutes of how you doing in prompt, what's going on, that kind of thing.
		And I did that this afternoon, and I began to get calls from first citizens, and then a young lady whose dad was nice enough to put her on the phone, a high school student.
		And it seems that shortly before I went on the air here in Perump this afternoon, this is just for a local Promp audience, we began to get news that the high school had just closed, as in closed down, because of black mold.
		And I said, what?
		And I said, well, we'll treat this as a rumor until we know more.
		And then, of course, we investigated and the Nye County School District sent us a press release that indicates that indeed they are closing the high school to ensure student and faculty safety, it says here.
	The building is to be vacated until a full investigation is completed by specialists in the field.
	Now, what they have found is Stochi Botris Shatarum.
	It's S-T-A-C-H-Y, B-O-T-R-Y-S, C-H-A-R-T-A-R-U-M.
	Shatarum.
	And I did some reading on the internet about this.
	And this Shaturum, steroctris shatarum can cause rashes, cough, congestion.
	They say it's extremely toxic.
	Neurological damage exists in buildings that have sustained water damage or have standing water, heavily wetted wallboard or damp conditions.
	Now, they name some other schools that have been affected, the Cashman School in Amesbury, and there have been others.
	Now, we began to get reports of black mold, you may recall, about a year ago, but oddly, the reports were coming from, guess where, the American Southwest here, Arizona, I believe, New Mexico, and they mentioned Nevada.
	And of course, that's where I am, Nevada.
	But here's the thing that won't click with me.
	And I might add our county buildings also had to be abandoned here because of black mold.
	Now, bear in mind where I am.
	We're, you know, 20 or 30 miles from Death Valley.
unidentified		This is, you know, serious desert that I live in here.
unidentified		It's 20 mule team kind of desert, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In the summer, our humidity levels are single-digit most times.
		In the winter, they're very low, double-digit.
		And this is one of the driest places in the world.
		Now, I'm not saying that mold can't exist here because, you know, you could break water pipes, air conditioning problems, I don't know, a million things, I suppose, could get something wet.
		But that this whole mold story would be sweeping through the southwest.
		In fact, right here in Perrump, Nevada, just astounds me.
		You would think if there was going to be a sort of a problem that it would have shown up first on the coasts.
		Now, this really may be nothing more than, certainly I'm not a scientist, so I don't know, but I've done a little bit of reading on this, and maybe it's nothing more than you would get behind your refrigerator.
		But again, I'm stumped at the fact that it's turning up in the American southwest here, in the arid desert, where you just wouldn't expect it.
		And if it was just here, that would be one thing, but it was all over several southwestern states.
		And now here it is in Nevada.
		So I don't know.
		One more time, I want to call your attention to a very, very interesting story.
		A lot of people just were shocked by what Mark Hazelwood had to say about the tenth planet or the possibility of a tenth planet.
		Well, again, there is an ABC story, a science story, about exactly that.
		The title, in fact, of the article is A Tenth Planet, Question Mark.
		And it says that astronomers may have found hints of a massive, distant, still unseen object at the edge of the solar system, perhaps a tenth planet, perhaps a failed companion star.
		And when I read this, we've got it on the website in case you would like to read the entire article.
		It all came crashing in, and the article came to me sent by somebody a couple of days after Mark was on the air.
		Anyway, fascinating.
		And if you want to read it for yourself, go to my website, and we've got the ABC, or a link to the ABC story there for you now.
		The following story, I will just read to you.
		The headline is, Flushed with Anger, Woman Gets Stuck to Airline Toilet Seat.
		Oslo Reuters.
		An American woman had no need to fasten her seatbelt on a flight from Scandinavia.
		That's a long flight from Scandinavia to the United States after a high-pressure vacuum flush sealed her to the toilet seat of the transatlantic airliner.
		The woman filed a complaint with Scandinavian Airlines System, SAS, after her ordeal on a Boeing 767 flight last year.
		Apparently, she got sucked in after pushing the flush button while seated, activating a system to clean the toilet by vacuum, said the airline on Monday.
		She could not get up by herself and had to sit on the toilet until the flight had landed so that ground technicians could help her get loose.
		An SAS spokeswoman told Reuters, she was stuck there for quite a long time.
		Well, yes, that's a very, very, very long flight.
		And if somewhere early in the flight, you were to stroll into the bathroom and by accident flush while you remained seated, nine, ten, eleven hours in the air, sitting there, until finally what you had to look forward to was a bunch of airline mechanic guides coming in to help free your butt.
		And I don't know, I'm not really comfortable with the entire image that this calls up.
		nor should you be if you are mentally calling it up and it's almost unavoidable as you hear the story.
unidentified		I, uh...
		Uh...
		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've been on some transatlantic trans-Pacific flights.
		They're very long and to imagine sitting there unable to free yourself, so to speak.
		It's unimaginable.
		It's terrorism by accident.
		I'm Art Bell and this is Coast to Coast AM.
		We'll be in open line for about 30 here.
		And then at the top of the hour, we're going to talk to the Deputy International Director and Field Investigator for MUFON, the guy who goes out and actually investigates these incredible stories and eyewitness reports and sometimes photographs.
		And we've got all of that for you tonight.
		It's all day long today and probably tomorrow, and I bet for a whole week I'm going to be stuck in my head with the image of this poor lady stuck to this seat on an airliner for a whole transatlantic flight.
		It's a terrible image, and you just, you can't get rid of it.
		Now I've given it to you, and you won't be able to get rid of it either.
		You'll see.
		Anyway, we'll be right back.
		All right.
		To the air we go with all of you.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Where are you, Bill?
		Gun?
		Are you art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I'm art, and yes, you're on the air.
unidentified		Okay.
		Listen, the other morning, I guess it was Friday, you were talking to a fellow who had a hole on his property.
		They couldn't find the bottom of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Smells hole, yes.
unidentified		Smells hole, okay.
		And WMAL, our local station, cut away on the hour, and it left me in San Francisco with this guy's teeth knocked out, and he just woked up or something.
		He'd been in a coma, and I never did find out what happened.
		I just wonder if you can sort of summarize that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, but I can do this for you.
		I can give you and everybody else a piece of bulletin information here.
		You ready?
unidentified		Ready?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This next Tuesday, because of the rebroadcast of Mel's Hole, Mel Waters contacted us, and we're going to have him on this coming Tuesday.
		He has found a second hole.
		So if you want to know what happened and what's happening, then Tuesday would be your night, sir.
unidentified		Okay, well, I'll be sure to tune in.
		And I do appreciate your program.
		It's really great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, thank you very much.
		I don't want to give away any secret information, but it's not really secret, even though you're just hearing about it for the first time right now.
		We booked Mel Waters for Tuesday.
		He happened to be traveling around and was quite surprised hearing himself on the radio and contacted the network, and it seems he has come upon a second seemingly endless hole.
		This one's really fascinating, but because of obvious concerns surrounding the confiscation, I will call it, or whatever you want to call it, the deal he couldn't refuse from the government of the first hole.
		I'm not going to talk about where it is.
		I will leave that up to him to either say or not say.
		But it is, again, a fascinating story.
		So to be caught up on what happened and what is happening now, you're going to want to listen Tuesday night.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		This is Ethan Salt Lake City from 570K NRS, calling?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, ma'am.
unidentified		Just calling to ask you about if you would maybe consider having Candice DeLong on your show again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The FBI agent.
unidentified		Yes, I just got done reading her book.
unidentified		Great read.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
		Great interview.
		Yes, of course I would consider having her on again.
unidentified		Especially after September 11th.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Especially after.
unidentified		You interviewed her prior to that.
unidentified		And I wondered how much she, you know, how many other September 11ths she foiled.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, the trouble is they can never really tell you that.
unidentified		That's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Occasionally it hits the news, but things that they do stop, for the most part, you never hear about.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, you know, as a result of that, the agencies get a black eye.
		Sometimes deserved, I might add, but mostly not, because they are doing their job, and when they do it, you don't hear about it.
		When they don't do their job, then, of course, you hear about it a lot.
unidentified		True.
unidentified		That's just a suggestion for your great show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
unidentified		Good night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		Yes.
		Candace, we ought to have her back.
		Especially since 9-11.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
		Good morning.
unidentified		This is Jonathan from Houston.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Jonathan.
unidentified		That big old long FT mold word you were trying to say, that's stacky botrace.
		Yes.
		That's not too good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no.
unidentified		We have that down here in Houston quite a bit.
		Now, it's come from the East Coast all the way down to the south down here.
		And now I find it highly unusual that you guys in the West, where it's so dry and parching would have molding problems.
		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		I mean, here we are in a little prompt with the county buildings closed.
		And now, as of this afternoon, the high school closed.
		A real shocker.
		I just happened to have it as it was breaking news.
		I was kind of cool.
		I was down at my radio station.
		And by God, there, as I spoke, it happened.
		And so we got it on the air as breaking news.
		But it is, gosh, it is.
		I just can't figure it out.
		Yes, the answer is it can happen anywhere where there is water.
		It's just vinegar.
unidentified		If you're going down south where it's humid, okay, yeah, if I could understand that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I agree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And listen, it came up from Arizona, which is every bit as arid.
unidentified		Well, sure, but you also have all four seasons there, too, so it's...
		I don't know.
		It would be...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We have winter, and then we have a few days of what some people around here call spring, then we have summer, then we have a few days of what some people around here call fall, then we have winter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Serious, those are our four seasons.
unidentified		sounds as bad as here.
unidentified		It's either hot and humid here, or we have a hurricane blow through, or our winters are so mild we're out in bathing suits and shorts during Christmas time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, here's one more thing about this whole mold business.
		Now, when I was in high school, I don't remember one story ever, any place, of any place closing because of mold, of high schools and county buildings and such closing because of mold.
		Now, maybe it happened and I wasn't paying attention, but I don't remember anything like that.
		Not on the scale that we've got now.
unidentified		Well, there's side effects like people are getting rashes from it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right, that's right.
unidentified		Lung allergies, and it's just, it's really bad.
		I mean, I come from a house here where three of the members of the four-member family here get allergies real bad.
		And if you have any of this mold or anything in your air system ducts or anywhere, or carpeting that's gotten just a little bit damp, it's going to affect you on and down the road.
		And people think, well, well, I'll just let the carpet dry out.
		No, you need to rip that carpet out because otherwise you're going to have thousands and thousands of dollars more damaged in the structure of your home and in the drywall that's no longer dry, but it's off all this mold.
		So it's a problem.
		And insurance companies, they're fixing just falls a bandwagon here in other states, too, like they are here in Texas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, again, in Houston, I mean, you're in a pretty humid climate, so it's somewhat understandable, but I just, the rash of it here in the southwest is puzzling.
unidentified		That's what's puzzling me, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, appreciate your call, sir.
unidentified		Oh, here's the future.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, take care.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Yeah, hey, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey.
unidentified		Got me on that mold.
		I have no idea.
		I know dry rot on boats, you know, once they get it in there, it's like cancer.
		You gotta.
		Yeah, but a boat.
		Yeah, you know.
		Even though it's dry, it still keeps working itself, you know, once it gets started.
		Sure.
		Yeah, I've seen a couple UFOs, and I know it's kind of boring, but one was like that monolith.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		UFOs are anything but boring.
unidentified		I know, but you get so many calls about them and everything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's quite all right.
		They are something.
		I don't know what they are.
		What did you see exactly?
unidentified		The most fascinating one was in Sausalito, right over almost downtown, coming into the marina there.
unidentified		My brother and I looked up and saw what looked like a super white, bright spotlight from a, like we saw a helicopter going back and forth searching this one little square block area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		And then it just shot straight up in the air with lightning speed and left a blue, green streak in the upper atmosphere that lasted for over half an hour.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, see, now, that was no helicopter.
		That was obviously no helicopter.
		Now, you know, I have people on who are skeptical, but you said boring when you got on.
		There's nothing boring about seeing that.
		It'll leave your mouth hanging open on your chest, you know.
		It'll hit your chest.
		Now, this is going on all over the world.
		And I get these skeptics on here, and they say, well, I tend to put down UFOs because I just don't believe in that stuff or because they would make contact or something or another.
		All the things that people say.
		And yet this is going on.
		It is real.
		It is happening.
		And somebody's got to look into it.
unidentified		It permanently tweaks your reality, especially at the time that a person sees it.
		We saw one of the kid, too.
		It was like a black monolith.
		It looked like the one in the Dorito Taco story where the guy, we saw the websites with that diamond black, cold black, marquee-shaped UFO.
		And we saw it just sat there, and my brother and my friend and myself were all standing there telling my dad.
		And he says, he was in the service for 20-something years.
		He said, no, there's nothing there.
		You better stop talking about it.
		The men in black are going to come after you.
		Dad, what's the men in black?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where did dad hear him?
unidentified		He brought up a couple places he used to be.
unidentified		He's passed away now, God rest his soul.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you should have asked him, hey, Dad, where did you hear about men in black?
unidentified		I was six or seven.
		Yeah, I emailed you yesterday with some pictures of those singing schnauzers that got shot with the electric harmonica.
		Did you catch my email yesterday at 8.30?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, unfortunately.
unidentified		I was a stun gun singing dog.
unidentified		Well, I talked to Will once, and he said that you might be cutting that up, and the dog said they want to get some dog cookies out of that deal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was funny.
		All right.
		Thank you very much.
		That was a riot.
		That was a riot.
		No, if it's come to the point where UFOs are boring because the stories are so prolific, then to me that just makes it even a bigger story.
		And obviously something is flying in our space, our airspace, our airspace, our space above the planet.
		Something is here.
		Now, I cannot for certain say it is aliens, nor can I say it is not the government, nor can I say it is.
		I don't know what the hell it is.
		I know that millions and millions and millions of people cannot be wrong.
		Some of them can be.
		Some of them misled by seeing things they simply don't understand are going to be reported, of course, as UFOs.
		But we have sightings, massive sightings by reliable people, police officers, staff of the NTSC, people in airports at control towers, you know, people who really know what they're looking at.
		And then, of course, I had my own sighting.
		And so whatever it is, these things are here, and they are in our skies.
		And somewhere there is an explanation for it all.
		Now.
		The truth eventually will prevail, and whatever they are, we'll figure it out.
		Wildcardline, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Arshan.
		Hello, there.
		Hello.
		Hello, everybody.
		Hang on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, turn your radio off, please.
unidentified		Yeah, I did.
		Okay.
		Well, I have two things.
		I thought of a good way to interrogate the prisoners down there at Guantanamo.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A more effective way than whatever they're using right now, you mean?
unidentified		I'm sorry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A more effective way than whatever they're using at the moment?
unidentified		Well, I don't know what they're doing now, but I think this will be effective.
		Yeah, I don't need it.
		Let them all see this, slaughter a pig, and dip a box of bullets in the pig's blood, and open a new box of clean bullets.
		I have two soldiers there, each one with a gun, and give the prisoners their choice of being shot with the one that was contaminated with pig blood or shot with the clean one.
		And the more they talk, the better their chances of being shot with the clean bullets.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, there's something about some number of virgins waiting over on the other side.
		I don't think we're going that far.
		But I do think, particularly in Afghanistan, whether it's at arm's length with the Afghanis that are sympathetic to our cause, or at least say they're sympathetic to our cause.
		By the way, I wouldn't take any bets on that.
		They may have elicited information from the Taliban at the wink and nod behest of our spook guys.
		I'm not exactly sure how it's...
		Whether they're doing that or not, I don't know.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Good morning.
		This is James from Rutland Mass.
		Hi, James.
		How are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ooki.
unidentified		All right.
		UFOs.
		Mm-hmm.
		Of all the shows and material I've come across and whatnot, I've never come across.
		How would you measure how fast, like, or far there would be going in the sky?
		Do you know what I mean?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How fast an object would be going?
		Yeah, and it would depend, of course, on its relative altitude.
		That would depend, you know, it's all line of sight.
		In other words, if it's at 40 or 50,000 feet or 100,000 feet or 300,000 feet, then you've got a very, very different measurement.
		If, on the other hand, for example, you've, I'm sure, seen a jet scream over your head, you hear it about three seconds before and about three seconds after and it's gone.
		So it depends on the altitude.
		That's the only way you'd measure speed.
unidentified		Yeah, what about like how I because like I'm not going to get into the whole story, but seeing something about five times, having something with me about three times, and like it, you know, stops and starts and goes back, but it can never figure out like how much distance it's covering and how quickly like, you know what I mean?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I do know what you mean.
unidentified		I haven't like seen a formula for that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there is no formula.
		There are sort of rough ways to, you know, you hold it up and you say, well, it was roughly the size of, because you have reference objects, but otherwise it's very difficult to say how, unless you know how big something is and what its altitude is, it's very, very difficult, very difficult to come up with any sort of speed estimate.
		Now, of course, when they get radar on it and that sort of thing, then they can do that, and they have measured some incredible speeds on radar.
		Speeds that normal man would not be capable of and, of course, would turn us to jelly.
		The G-forces involved would turn us to jelly.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Well, hello, Mr. Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello there.
unidentified		You got Southbound Bob here in California.
		Southbound, huh?
		Yeah, we're going southbound today.
		I got a theory about the UFOs and why that there's so many of them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why?
unidentified		That I think that they're coming down here to watch possibly in 16 months, like the feller Hazelwood said the other day about the Nebrew.
		Yeah, about doing the shift and that they're coming to watch it scientifically.
		Going to watch the catalysis maybe of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there was a movie, sir, that I cannot recall the name of it.
		It doesn't really matter, but it involved time travelers who would travel as you would with, you know, a group of travelers.
		And they would go back to various times in history when various cataclysms had occurred.
		And they were time tourists.
		They would check into a hotel about a week before a comet or something was going to smash into a particular area.
		And then they would watch the event and scurry away in time, you know, just sort of as tourist observers of a cataclysm.
		And you have to imagine that if time travel is possible or if visitors from elsewhere are here, that they would very likely be aware of any cataclysm that might occur here prior to our being aware of it with their technology.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
		Art!
		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How you doing, bud?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, where are you?
unidentified		No, you're sick of that question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		Here's Norman, Salt Lake.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Getting ready for these Olympics.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Well, we got all kinds of security all over the place.
		Hey, um, Art?
		Yes, sir.
		Um.
		Yeah, the new bureau.
		I think it could be coming.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The 10th planet?
unidentified		You bet.
unidentified		Well, I think that part.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here's what I want to say about that.
		I have no idea whether it's actually coming.
		There's some evidence that there have been cataclysms the size of something that Nibiru would have caused or a planetary passage that close would have caused here on Earth.
		And there seems no question that science now is imagining there may be a tenth planet out there.
		Again, I reference you to the story, the ABC story that hit me right between the eyes after Mr. Hazelwood's visit the other night.
		Now, the one thing missing from this story, of course, is whether this object appears headed in our direction.
		They don't know.
		And if they do, they're not saying.
		So that's the one part of Mr. Hazelwood's presentation that I'm not sure about.
		It may be there.
		And modern science seems to be confirming the possibility that it may well be there.
		But I think the key question is whether it's headed our way in any sort of short-term or long-term 3,600-year returning orbit, anything of that sort.
		I just don't know.
		But even hearing part of what he had to say confirmed sent a few chills down my spine.
		I don't know about you.
		Coming up in a moment is George A. Zeiler, currently Deputy International Director and Field Investigator of MUFON.
		We are going to be talking about UFOs.
		To be that kind of night.
		And by the way, there's a very interesting rendition of the UFO that was seen in the case we're going to talk about right under George Zeiler's name.
		If you want to take a look, I'm Mark Bell from the high, moldy deserts in the Great American Southwest.
		We'll be right back.
		It certainly is.
		And Stan Romanowski had an incredible UFO sighting.
		We have the video from that sighting on my website.
		Now, what was incredible about the video?
		It was shaky.
		You got to see the object.
		There were stills provided of the object.
		I'll tell you what was credible and amazing about the video.
		To me.
		And that was toward the last part of the second video.
		Stan had a whole crowd around him.
		I mean, it was like a scene out of close encounters of the third kind when they all got together and they were discussing, oh my God, did you see that?
		Well, that's what was at the end of the video.
		Now, because it was under investigation, we gave none of the names of the other witnesses.
		But to see that on video and to hear what those people were saying during that UFO encounter was astounding.
		It was astounding.
		Well, that case has been investigated by MUFON.
		And tonight I have George Zeiler here.
		He is currently Deputy International Director and Field Investigator of the Mutual UFO Network or MUFON, which is none other than the world's largest civilian UFO research organization.
		His background includes experience in various aspects of banking and real estate.
		He was owner of his own private investigation business.
		That's interesting.
		George learned a variety of skills for gleaning information from obscure situations, which has served him very well in his paranormal and UFO investigations.
		His interest in the UFO phenomena was stirred after serving at Nellis Air Force Base.
		That's interesting.
		Just over the hill here.
		Currently, his private investigation experience is being put to good use by MUFON.
		George has recently wrapped up his investigation of the San Romanex sighting.
		Now, that may not be entirely true.
		It may not be entirely wrapped up, but I guess the case has proceeded to a point where we can tell you more than we did before.
		And we'll sort of recap the case and find out what's new.
		It's interesting to hear from somebody who saw the UFO, who even got video of the UFO, but it's really interesting to hear about somebody with George Zeiler's credentials who has investigated the entire case and more, and that's what's coming up.
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		What's this?
		Arthritis?
		You know, one of those things.
		You just slowly, is my vision fading?
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unidentified		That's ccradio.com.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, here is the Deputy International Director and Field Investigator for MUFON, George Zeiler.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		George, welcome.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Art.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		It's good to be on your show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good to have you.
		Well, you somehow...
		Now, that's just over the hill from me here, and I was wondering what it was that occurred at Nellis that got you interested.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		That's a good question, Art.
		It's really the beginning of the seed, if you might say.
		I pretty much was a skeptic up until a few years ago, but having been stationed at Nellis and working in classified projects when I came back from Vietnam, as you know, being classified projects at Nellis?
		Yes.
		Okay.
		Not that there are any classified projects at Nellis ever, but as you know, that's the test center.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And we're very close to prump there, but I saw a lot of things that you wondered about, and then there was always the things going on at Area 51.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, yes.
		George, how much of what you learned at Nellis can you not talk about because of continued classified status?
		A lot?
		A little?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Probably a little.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A little.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We see a lot of things here in the Perump Valley.
		Do a lot of flyovers, George.
		And so we see a lot of strange objects here in the sky, things that simply cannot be explained.
		Certainly not by conventional science.
		I've seen one of them myself.
		So I don't know.
		Either we are generations beyond where we think we are, and we've invented anti-gravity, or we're being visited, one of the two.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that it's not our government projects, none that I know of.
		And for the last three years, I've extensively been researching that.
		But that's a whole different skill.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're a private investigator as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		I'm a retired private investigator, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Retired, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nevertheless, those skills can be easily applied here, right, as an investigator.
unidentified		Oh, absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		Directly applied, really.
		Absolutely.
		All right, let's discuss the Stan Romanek case for a second.
		Recap for everybody what Stan went through.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Actually, the Stan Romanek case started when this particular sighting on September 30th.
		He had come home from work and had gone to a gas station and was on his way home.
		Well, on the way home, this craft of some kind, which was located about 30 feet above the telephone poles, was seen following his car down a street called Estes Street in Lakewood, Colorado.
		Now, that's pretty unusual in itself in that it's a pretty heavy metropolitan area.
		For us, it was in our backyard because our headquarters is only about three miles from there.
		Well, there were a number of witnesses that saw him going down the street, and in fact, he didn't even think anything of it.
		He thought it was a police helicopter following him.
		So he even waved at it.
		He thought it was kind of funny.
		He's going to give him the salute out the window until he sees all these people stopping their cars and pointing upward.
		And then he reacts to it.
		Stan having had a number of sightings that month, which again is an unusual phenomenon in itself.
		There's a lot of people who've never seen one, myself included.
		But you see a lot of strange things, but they're generally little lights in the sky, a little in a ball right over the top of your car.
		What's even more unusual, Stan, then, because he had had these other sightings, is carrying this video camera, and he jumps out and proceeds to get about 15 minutes of footage, which is terrific from our sense because he had had the experience of shooting some other ones that didn't come out so well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, even this one was hurky jerky.
		And I don't mean to put it down because God knows in that situation, I don't know how many camera sensibilities I'd be able to maintain.
		Thank you very much.
		But it was kind of jerky in the beginning.
		I thought, you know, and then it showed the still, and I went, oh, that's kind of interesting when I saw the still.
		And then when, at the end, George, when I saw all of these people gathered around like a scene out of Close Encounters of the Third Kind, that's impressive.
		That's really impressive.
		They were all in a shocked kind of condition.
		I mean, this is something that really happened, period.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Well, for us, too, when I first saw the video, that was almost verbatim.
		My thoughts was unbelievable that all of a sudden you have this whole trove of witnesses ranging in age from eight years old to 70.
		In about 50 of them.
		We have about 50 witnesses total that have come forward on this so far.
		We continue to get new contacts.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On my website tonight, under your name, there is a rendition.
		Let's see.
		We've got Stan's video number one and Stan's video number two.
		And by the way, I recommend everybody watch number two and watch it to the very end so you can see what I'm talking about.
		But on Stan's UFO page, there is now a rendition of what Stan says he saw, what he captured on videotape, a pretty good rendition of it, and it's a really weird-looking object.
		You have seen the image?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that representative, do you believe, of about what this thing looked like?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		It's pretty close.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		I think that there's we haven't got one of the parts of the video analyst have not finished looking at it as yet.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		You know, our professionals that really look at the videos and break it down frame by frame in order frames.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it's just something that's close.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		It's and you know, it's as close as you're going to get.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it's one of the few out of thousands that really give you that up-close look.
unidentified		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you've interviewed at least some portion of the 50 witnesses connected with this, right?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do those witnesses generally agree with the description given and the way the UFO behaved and all the rest of it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are people in general agreement?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Generally they are, but one thing that you should note, Art, is that the reason that we interview all of them separately, and again, I would like to thank you and your staff for being so sensitive to our investigation on your last show because it was very helpful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I knew it was ongoing and I didn't want to get in the way of that by giving names.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you're now, the investigation is not actually officially closed yet, right?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		This may go on for a couple years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But your physical.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		The physical part of it is pretty much closed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pretty much closed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, then maybe you can talk about that without giving out people's names.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was the general kind of thing you got from the witnesses?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, the first one that really grabbed me was the fellow sitting at the stoplight when Peter Davenport initially, and you know, at MUFON, we get reports from a lot of different sources because we're the major investigative arm around the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, including Peter Davenport.
unidentified		Right.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And so when he got this report, he sent it in and he sent us all of the people that had reported.
		Warhammer was a CEO of a major company.
		And in order to protect his privacy, I mean, he was really reluctant to even talk to us.
		Took us some time to do that.
		But just reading his report, he's sitting at a stoplight and he sees this ball of light following this van.
		And then he sees the hollow concave part of it.
		And then from the interior of this ball, he sees a light beam come out, much like a searchlight.
		But when it goes over the car, it doesn't go over the car.
		It scans through.
		His description was, it scanned through the car, it sliced right through it.
		And he had serious concern for the people inside the car.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure it would appear as though it might be some sort of weapon to the observer.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it scared him so bad that he said he went home and locked the doors and trembled for about two hours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is a CEO of a major corporation.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Very credible witness.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		An elderly man.
		I mean, this is not a young man.
		This is an older man that has been around the block.
		He didn't want people to think he was crazy, but he thought enough of it that he did report it.
		That grabs you when a man of that stature sees it.
		And then you see all these witnesses on the film, which was more astounding.
		One thing we learned in this business is that witnesses don't always see under stress things the same way.
		So we take and do comparative analysis of what those witnesses see and glean from it the scientific information that we can.
		And then we take and do all the physical processes.
		So another one that grabbed me was the young little girls that first saw it in the picnic.
		Now, here's this park that he pulls into.
		Now Stan Romanek pulled into a park where this family was having a picnic.
		Now mind you, this is a nice day.
		They've just finished having an all-day picnic for a 10-year-old birthday.
		You know, the whole family's gathered and it's just getting toward dusk.
		There's still about 68 or 70 degrees.
		You know, there's virtually no clouds in the sky.
		There's some clouds coming from the southeast and a little breeze, you know, six or seven miles an hour from the southeast.
		So that's kind of the setting.
		Full moon, just Gorgeous night.
		And all of a sudden, these little girls are walking to the restroom and they turn around and they see this blinking thing right along the top of the trees.
		The first words out of their mouth were, Aliens, aliens.
unidentified		Really?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		I mean, when you really listen to the tape, and you know, one of the things that we do is we take those tapes and we sit and we listen to them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take them apart.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And take them apart, sure.
		And we hear the little minute details as well as the visual things.
		But you hear these little girls saying, aliens, aliens.
		Look, mom, there's aliens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, on a scale of one to ten, with ten being, you know, really solid stuff, how solid is this case?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		13.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		This is the real deal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		This is the real deal.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, for us in the administration and running the headquarters, to have it in our backyard, it gave us an opportunity to really, you know, get our teeth into something so close to home.
unidentified		So that's just...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have any idea?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		We've estimated it to be somewhere between 24 and 30 feet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's round at the top, folks, and then at the bottom there's a sort of a second smaller rounded area, and below that, what almost look like bubbles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know how to describe them.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		It's like a spike.
		It's like a laser spike, is what it looks like to me.
		But it's really concave.
		Part of what the witnesses gave us, other than stand, is the witnesses in the park had the object go directly over them.
		So they were afforded the opportunity to actually look up into it from the bottom.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And some said it looked like a black hole in the bottom.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
		Like it was open.
		A couple of the witnesses actually were able to give us some of the structural detail.
		There appeared to be some sort of framing, like rails of some kind that crisscrossed either in like double inverted triangles or a star.
		But it was hollow and the light was coming from the core inside.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From that black core?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Right.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		So inside what they saw as this deep hole, the actual light or the beam that was seen throughout, and you could see even in the stop frames, you could see that little white protrusion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		That was coming from deep inside.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Hold it right there while we take a break here at the bottom of the hour.
		George Zeiler is my guest, Deputy International Director and Field Investigator for MUFON.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		What I would suggest to you all is to make your way to my website while we're talking about the Stan Romanek case and take a look-see at these videos.
		And I actually recommend video number two and that you watch it to the very end.
		You'll shake your head at the beginning with a shaking camera and all the rest of it, but then you'll get the stills.
		And then most importantly at the end, you'll get this incredible gathering of witnesses that all have obviously seen the same thing.
		George Zeiler is here, Deputy International Director and Field Investigator of MOOCON, the largest organization of its kind investigating this case.
		I asked him on a scale of one to ten, where is this case?
		And he just said a 13.
		It's a big case.
		Take a look at the video and decide for yourself.
		Once again, George A. Zeiler, that's C-E-I-L-E-R.
		George, you know, I'm going to just take it back for one second because it's bugging me.
		I can't let go of it.
		When I asked you about your experience at Nellis, I caught a hitch in your voice.
		Sort of a, that's an interesting question with kind of a hitch in your voice, like there was something that was there that you haven't told us.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Well, there might be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, then, would I safely conclude, then, just so I can dismiss this, that there is something that if it happened, you could not still tell us about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would that be fair to surmise?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		No, you know, I just know how the government works.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And the safest aspect is to stay away from it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, that's good.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		But the truth is, Art, I was still a skeptic after I left.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		But in my prior investigations firm, I had a partner who's done a number of shows for A ⁇ E, like the Case Landrum case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And he's a police officer.
		And, well, you know, he kept challenging me with little pieces.
		Well, how do you explain this?
		And how do you explain that?
		Because, you know, being an investigator, you have a discipline that you have to go through in order to sort facts from fiction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And you run into a lot of fiction, just like in ufology and studying the paranormal.
		The majority of the reports you get are really people seeing a star, a planet, in a car, and they're moving, so they see it moving, and subsequently they believe that they saw something.
		Or you get little lights at the sky.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Lots of that, sure.
unidentified		Okay.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		It's rare that you get something with the dynamic that this does and then have multiple videos.
		That's one of the other things that we got out of this was multiple videos.
		Well, anyway, Ken kept challenging me until finally I started seeing things about UFO that caused me concern and questions.
		And questions to an investigator is like feeding an alligator.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		Sure.
		Now, listen, this UFO hit Stan with some kind of beam, some kind of beam.
		And I asked Stan if there were any effects from it when I had him on the program.
		And he said, as of yet, no.
		But you believe that that did affect him in some way, don't you?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, one of the things that we do, we always have concern for our witnesses and the things that might happen to them.
		You know, one of the things that we are studying is, are there physiological effects?
		Are there psychological effects?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, right.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		The psychological effects looking at the video are apparent.
		I mean, initially, everybody's stunned.
		I mean, it's like they're in shock.
unidentified		It is shock.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And because it's sort of surreal, you're kind of going into this slow motion thing.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Now, Stan, having had these experiences, Stan is really the enigma of this case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In what sense?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		The case with being able to see the ball and, you know, the things that we'll ultimately be able to extract things about the propulsion systems, their external parts of the craft, as they're able to take the film apart.
		But, you know, how many of you seen art, truthfully?
		I mean, have you ever seen five in one month?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I've seen two in my life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One really, really close encounter, which I reported to move on.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		You see, when that happens, okay, we go through a filtering process to sort them out.
		And all of a sudden we're hit with this one where we've got multiple witnesses, multiple videos, but it still centers on Stan.
		When I first interviewed him and I find out that he's videoed four or five in the month of September in different locations in the country, one of them being September 20th at Daniels Park, which was talked about by Stan and also when you had your other guest on the
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So obviously effects, any effects on Stan would be a central question.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Right.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		So part of the focus really centers now on why are they interested in Stan?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		You know, why this recurring.
		And September wasn't the only time.
		He was shown on Fox TV in December 2000 when he had another close encounter in a place called Red Rocks Park.
		That was just, you know, like eight or nine months before that, a major sighting.
		So to me as an investigator, the witnesses and the craft and the electrical effects of when it goes into the cloud and the bursts of lightning, I mean, those are all really central to this case.
		This case, the September 30th sighting.
		But when you look at the whole case beyond that, you have to say, why are they looking at Stan?
		So one of the things that we did, and he had after his September 20th sighting, and I have talked to Stan today and he's allowed me to discuss a little bit of some of the things that he's done, but we aren't done with medical examinations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		We have him doing, but he had some lesions that we put under black light that fluoresced.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		An unusual phenomena that is not common to that type of close encounter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Lesions that fluoresced under light.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now that's pretty interesting.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Some were yellow-green and some were orange.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Over what portion of his body?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Mostly the bottoms of his feet and around his wrists.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, isn't that interesting?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do the people who have done the examination say about these lesions?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		We don't know yet.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		I mean, that's part of the investigation that's not concluded.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And it's ongoing.
		That's why I say we haven't finished the medical examinations that need to be done on those things.
		But it's unusual.
		The second physiological thing that was unusual was the bird attraction during the course of that 30 days.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As I recall him saying that how many birds during that time?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		30 or 40 or 50 birds, you know, in various locations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would hit his car windows and just as though they were disoriented because of his presence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what it comes down to.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		You know, there's lots of things that we could try and perceive.
		We don't know what's causing it.
		We're trying to find out.
		But it is part of that phenomena that's really part of the mystery.
		It's not common that we've ever heard, in all the cases I've read and seen at MUFON, and as you know, there's thousands.
		Yes.
		I've never seen that phenomena or read about it.
		So it adds another piece into the puzzle That we don't know what it is.
		You know, and part of what we have to do now with Stan is we will go back and do his family history.
		And, you know, part of that goes back where his father was in the military in the Air Force bases at the missile silos up in North Dakota.
		So, you know, there could be linkage there.
		It was during the right time periods.
		We don't know that.
		But, you know, as we go and we interview more of their family and talk to those people, we'll get a better idea on how that all relates.
		So it adds to the interest of the story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What case can there be made that this was an intelligently controlled craft?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's an easy one.
		I mean, the video by itself, coupled with the initial eyewitnesses, you know, here's a craft following a street line right over the top of the trees.
		You know, it comes to an intersection and does a 90-degree left-hand turn or going east across this park at 500 feet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Now, we had another witness that had called in from your last show with Stan that actually called us, and they have another video.
		Now, we've not been able to get that video yet, but her comment exactly was this.
		When I started videoing it, it was as if it knew we were there and it hovered and then it slowly drifted off away.
		Now, part of the thing is it was obviously not a helicopter.
		It wasn't an airplane.
		It wasn't any kind of plane structure that I've been able to determine that's known to us.
		Okay?
		It isn't a balloon because balloons don't fly against the wind.
		You know, we called the National Weather Service.
		You know, balloons don't go into clouds and create lightning bolts that the weather service doesn't detect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not usually.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		That was one of the phenomenas that we can't understand is that we saw the bolts of lightning.
		There was no thunder.
		There was no sound.
		You know, here's a craft that's making these obtuse angles and movements.
		And it's like they were putting themselves on display.
		That's one of the things that catches me in this one, Art, is they've been known to happen like that, but then they instantly blink out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and I think people are right to say, look, if these things had all of this technology, I mean, after all, we already have stealth technology for radar, and we probably have some sort of visual stealth technology developed by now as well.
		I'm sure we do.
		In fact, I know of some things I probably shouldn't talk about.
		And so, you know, a craft like this, if it did not want to be seen, surely would not be seen.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it must have wanted to be seen.
		Now, this is a very important case, along with some others.
		It's a very, very important case.
		And it makes me ask, why feed it to us this way, a little bit at a time?
		These very solid cases, like the one we're talking about right now with Stan, why would they sort of let themselves be seen every now and then, even wanting to be seen every now and then, and yet not make contact?
		To come all that way, if in fact they have, or through another dimension, wherever they have come from, and not make contact.
		It doesn't make sense.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Gosh, are you an investigator, Arch?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		You know, those are the kinds of questions that drive us crazy.
		Unfortunately, we don't have answers.
		We don't know what their purpose are.
		We don't know who they are.
		We don't know where they come from.
		And we certainly don't know what they are.
		We certainly know that if they can do the things that you see them do, even in that film, when it appears that it blinks out, it really doesn't blink out.
		It actually goes from the east back to the west to the mountains, and it just skips completely out of the frame of the film.
		And then it darts back in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there a way, based on that, and the rough geography involved, and the time frame involved from frame to frame, to make an estimation of speed of the object?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		And we're in the process of doing those calculations of timing.
		You time the cameras, and particularly in this case where we have some reference points, it's easier.
		We do some, I mean, it's all mathematical.
		But the speeds are beyond anything that we're capable of doing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In the atmosphere.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		You know, and we're a heavy oxygenated atmosphere, so that makes it, they just do things that I've never seen craft do.
		And having come from an Air Force background and an interest in flying and, you know, airtight structure, it's just amazing the things that these things do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you come to a personal conclusion, George, about what we're dealing with?
		In other words, you certainly said earlier you thought it was extraterrestrial versus some sort of government Experiment.
		Have you come to a fairly firm conclusion in your own mind after all of these investigations that we are dealing with some sort of alien or dimensional life form?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		My personal opinion, yes, absolutely, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely, yes, sir.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And it's not just from the investigations of sightings.
		That has to do with my investigations into Air Force and military documents that have been declassified.
		Our government's knowledge of this particular topic is enormous.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I would think it better be.
		I mean, they always say exactly the opposite, that they don't know a damn thing about UFOs.
		But that really is not the case when freedom of information requests are made and documents are received.
		It's not the case, is it?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are lies and then there's damn lies and then there's government lies.
		And that's probably the biggest lie in the world.
		It's a secret and it's a box that they're painted into that they don't know how to get out of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In your opinion, George, why is our government keeping their knowledge of this phenomenon a secret?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do you think they are?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I think I can answer that in a couple of different ways.
		If you go back historically to 1947, 1948 through maybe 1953, 54, we just came out of a World War.
		We just detonated this explosive device that destroyed a couple of cities.
		There was fear of the Russians gaining and having access to the same access to the German scientists that we had, and we didn't know how far along they were with their technology.
		And then along come the UFOs, and the fear was that it was the Russians, the Russians thought it was the Americans, and so you had this going back and forth.
		And there was always concern that they could be misconstrued as incoming because they couldn't decipher what they were militarily.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, understandable.
		During the height of the Cold War and the post-war years, totally understandable, actually.
		But that was then, and this is now.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Well, as that evolved, Art, you have then the intelligence services start gaining power with the information that they glean.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Now, there's a lot of evidence to believe that there's actually been craft crashed and they've been retrieved and been reverse engineered.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So much evidence, George, so much secrecy that even our own congressmen and senators, elected representatives, cannot get the information.
		Even presidents of the U.S. that have requested information cannot get the information they seek.
		They cannot get the truth.
		The truth may be out there, but it's way out there if a president can't get it.
		Now, maybe we'll pick up on that when we get back.
		We're taking a break here at the top of the hour.
		My guest is George A. Zeiler, who is the Deputy International Director and Field Investigator for MUFON.
		The big, come on, MUFON.
		I'm Mark Bell, and this is Coast to Coast A.M. It is.
		That would be me, George A. Zeiler, Deputy International Director and Field Investigator for MUFON is my guest, and he will be right back.
		The End Once again, here is George A. Zeiler, and welcome back, George.
		Thank you, Ert.
		Let's see, where were we?
		We were talking about the bomb at Nagasaki and Hiroshima and all we've done and, you know, what they might be doing, whether they might be observing us for some reason and not contacting us directly for some reason,
		but sort of giving us this slowly dispersing medicine that will eventually come to some sort of crescendo of realization that, as I was pointing out, even presidents have been unable to get information on what's going on.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		You know, I had to laugh about that because, you know, Barry Goldwater, when he was the chairman of the Armed Services Committee, and he was running for president in 1960.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And on top of that, he was an Air Force general.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And I discovered copies of his memorandums, which were numerous, but of particular interest when he went to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, and General LeMay told him, look, don't even go there.
		You don't have a high enough clearance.
		We're not going to tell you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have audio tape of his saying that, by the way.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Incredible.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		I'll have to twist your arm to get you to give us a copy for our museum.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes, I have audio tape of that.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Incredible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is a true story.
		And also, I've heard several others.
		I mean, I had a caller who said he went to a book signing for Jimmy Carter.
		And you know how it is.
		I do anyway, at a book signing, your head is down, and boy, you're just signing one after another after another.
		And this gentleman said he went up to Jimmy Carter and somehow managed to capture his attention and said, Mr. President, you promised you would tell us what you would find out about UFOs when you got into office.
		And Jimmy Carter just stopped cold and began to, actually a tear appeared in his eye.
		And he looked at this fellow and without comment, it went on.
		But in other words, he was extremely emotional at even being asked that question.
		And so, you know, obviously the average person like myself is going to think, well, my God, if presidents of the U.S. don't know about this, or it's so secret, if they do know, they cannot talk, then it must be a secret sovereign, so well kept, hard as that is to believe, that there's almost a government operating outside a government to keep it.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		You know, I don't know how to respond to that because I don't know that that's a fact.
		But, you know, I've been looking at politics for a long time and I'm a constitutionalist.
		I certainly am disturbed that the infringement upon we the people, because the government is supposed to be us, when our own representatives are denied information by the intelligence community, it almost lends itself to questioning what's going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, that steps easily around what I just said.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a government operating outside the constitutional guidelines that we all think we have to operate by, even the government, right?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's why it's important when citizens and people like the people in Lufon are here, and that's what we're trying to do.
		I mean, we're trying to gain the scientific evidence.
		And, you know, as you know, we have long lists of people with highly toutable credentials, those of which you've had on your own show.
unidentified		Sure.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Stanton Friedman.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Philip Corsa.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		A number of people.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		John Schusler.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On and on and on and on.
		Yes, indeed.
		Absolutely.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		You know, so what we try and do, and you know, we're an organization that's virtually volunteers, and we rely upon the contributions of people.
		And it's difficult when you don't have the funding that the U.S. government has.
		And when everybody is ridiculed, it cuts off the sources of funds to keep going.
		I mean, it's difficult for us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you feel about people like Dr. Greer and others who are trying to force the door open and force congressional hearings and bring witnesses in front of the government and just shove this right in their face until something breaks?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think about those tactics?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Having looked at that, and you know, that's a major question that we at WOFON face.
		And as you know, Dr. Greer was one of our featured speakers at our last symposium.
		The reason for that is it's the only way that we have an opportunity for the American public to get the information.
		The only thing that we have a right to is a right to be heard.
		And so it's the only legal way that he can bring those witnesses forward is with immunity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we saw the First Amendment or I wouldn't be here.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Well, the First Amendment...
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		It's another thing when you work in classified projects and you're forced to sign secrecy and oath agreements that commit you to long prison terms or other sanctions that are pretty severe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are lots and lots of people listening to you right now who have signed such agreements and have information that would no doubt be of great value to you.
		I mean, what do you say to these people?
		They did sign the agreements.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		They have to work with us to help us get the hearings so that we can be heard, so that they can be heard, so that their stories can be told.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Even if that means violating their agreements.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Congress has the ability to give them immunity and waive the implications of those agreements.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is certainly true.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And that is why the congressional hearings and the method that Dr. Greer is going forward with is the correct way to do it.
		It's difficult.
		We have to get mainstream people to understand that we are doing the science.
		You see, the government controls the scientific community in that it funds the university projects.
		It funds the projects for the military.
		So if they step into areas that they don't want them to, they cut their funding off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, here's another angle, George.
		Here's another way of looking at it that might or might not be true.
		Our government is charged with protecting us against terrorists, other enemy nations, people who would wish us harm or dead, and we know there are plenty of those out there.
		That's their job, to protect us with the military against threats of that sort.
		Now, with regard to UFOs, there are a lot of people who believe, well, the government knows about them, but cannot do a damn thing about them.
		In other words, the technology in use is so far beyond even their understanding that they are defenseless against them and what they wish to do, whether it's picking up cows, shining lights or beams on people like Stan or whatever all else they do.
		Our government can't do a damn thing about it.
		And because they are defenseless, they choose to ignore the fact of their existence publicly altogether Because they can't do anything about it.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And they don't want people to know that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Which could cause people to be upset.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		But, you know, unlike, it's just like the terrorists, I think the American public has shown a tremendous resiliency.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They have, yes.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And it's my belief that we have the right to know the truth.
		I mean, if we're facing an adversary, but you see, we don't know whether these aliens, and we'll use that term because alien just means that.
		It's foreign to us.
		It's different than we are.
		Okay, by taking that tact, when we have alien technology and when we have something that's foreign that's going on, we have the right to know what we're up against.
		That's been the rallying point of our people forever.
		And our right to speak like this and talk about subjects without scrutiny of government is part of what makes our culture great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you would cite the 9-11 events as proof the American public could psychologically and in many other ways handle information that we are in fact being visited by some things.
		Here's another one I want to throw at you.
		A good portion of my audience, George, agrees these things are out there and they are being seen and people are having experiences like Stan had, but that they are evil entities.
		And I don't think that that can be any more ruled out than any of the other things we might discuss here as possibilities, that they're evil entities of some sort, you know, and these people are literal believers in the Bible, and the Bible says there will be things like this, and that when they appear, they will be evil entities.
		And so a substantial portion of the population believes that.
		You can't really rule that out, can you?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Actually, I think that there's probably a lot of truth to that.
		Not necessarily in the sense of the religious aspect, but from the things that have happened.
		I mean, we talk about animal mutilations.
		We talk about the physiological effects on people like Stan and other people who've had these close encounters.
		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not exactly warm and fuzzy, huh?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Now, there are a lot of people once they have, but to go back to the resiliency issue, the people in this video is a classic example where while the initial shock, when it wore off, they actually talked in terms of elation.
		They had this warm sensation.
		They, you know, I mean, it was incredible to them.
		You know, all of a sudden it became a reality instead of speculation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Okay?
		And that's what a close encounter does.
		We're seeing now in the thousands of reports that we get at MUFON, and we get them from all various sources.
		But, you know, one of the problems, Art, is this, and it's part of the reason why I got really involved in MUFON, is investigations in the paranormal and ufology have always been in the past tense.
		The crafts change, what they see changes, the technology changes, but it seems like our technology is always behind time.
		And so we're always backward looking.
		You know, we see all of these things, you know, and we observe them and record them and we analyze them and then we see the coloration changes and we see the effects on people.
		But, you know, as those transitions happen, the real time is their technology is always ahead.
		It always just seems to be ahead.
		We're looking at ways to try and find new ways to approach the investigation, the analyzation, the sciences of it, so that we can be more forward-thinking the parallel.
		Because you hit it on the head.
		When you're behind the curve, you're defenseless.
		And there's nothing to believe that they're totally benevolent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's a pretty good basic question of the thousands of reports of all this that MUFON has processed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you were to guess, what percentage of the people regarded what happened to them as a warm and fuzzy situation that made them feel wonderful and great, as opposed to those who weren't so happy with what happened to them?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		You know, I really can't answer that question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Because I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are a number of people who have written books that suggest this phenomena is real, but it's not warm and fuzzy little creatures at all, and that we all need to be very wary of what we're dealing with here, that it may not be something with our best interests in mind,
		and as you pointed out, with what's been done to cows and some people, and, you know, this whole thing, it just doesn't necessarily seem friendly.
		It doesn't seem overtly hostile, because after all, and I agree with the people who say with that technology, they could vaporize us.
		Well, right.
		Probably they could.
		So they haven't done that yet, so not overtly hostile, but not real friendly either.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, when you say they haven't done that yet, they haven't done that yet that the public knows about or that we can prove.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		That doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Vaporizing us?
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you have a point there.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		I mean, we don't know.
		What we do know, okay, we do know that we have injury to human.
		We do know that we've had animal mutilations.
		We know now that there have been abductions, you know, and a lot of those are pretty ugly.
		If you really talk to people like Dr. Mackie and Dr. Hopkins and people who deal in Dr. Jacobs, these are renowned people.
		Harvard Medical School, Harvard Law School.
		I mean, these are really educated, finely tuned, professional medical people who just simply say, you know, this is a real phenomenon.
		Now, what we don't know is where our government lies in that.
		You know, we don't know the connection.
		Is there a connection?
		And those are some of the major questions that we continue to deal with.
		But we do know that when these things land, they damage plants.
		They leave radiation trace elements that we investigate and propagate.
		You know, they emit electronic, electromagnetic radiation.
		They stop our cars.
		They affect our airplanes' instruments.
		Those are things that we know.
		Those aren't things that are speculation.
		Those are the things that we know happen.
		But we don't know why they happen or how they happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or what the intent is.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		And those are the questions that loom for us.
		But that's, again, when you throw questions at investigators, it's like feeding the alligators.
		You just make them work that much harder.
		But this is a problem of immense proportion that is serious for the people in this country and this world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But all things told, you believe that our government has knowledge far beyond that which they admit publicly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would that be fair?
unidentified		I know that they have more knowledge.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, George, hold on.
		We'll be right back to you.
		And we're going to take some calls as well for George A. Zeilot, who's in a position to know, in a position to know, Deputy International Director and Field Investigator of MUFON, the world's largest civilian UFO research organization.
		And I know a lot of you out there have questions, some of them which George no doubt cannot answer, some of them which nobody we know can answer or will answer.
		I'm Mark Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AF Works.
		Okay, in a moment, we're going to open the lines for you to speak with George A. Zeiland, Deputy International Director and Field Investigator for MUFON.
		An unusual opportunity coming up next.
		All right, tomorrow night, John A. Keele is here.
		It's all about the Mothman prophecies.
		There's a big movie coming out with Richard Gere and company about the Mothman prophecies.
		And the man to talk about this is certainly John A. Keel.
		He'll be here tomorrow night.
		It'll be interesting because that's one subject I know very, very little about.
		I've heard about it all my life, but I really have no idea what the Mothman prophecies are all about.
		Back now to George Zeiler.
		George, are you there?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Certainly, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
		George, I've got a number of people who would like to speak with you.
		How about that?
		Great.
		Okay, let's see what we run into, and it can be anything.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with George Zeiler.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Brooke.
unidentified		I'm calling from the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Homeland.
		Yes, sir.
		I heard of a very interesting phenomena yesterday on of all stations, the USA network, which is very mainstream.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
unidentified		And I heard George talking about strange things occurring with birds, and I also heard you have a program one night about strange things happening with birds in Tennessee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, a radio station in Tennessee.
unidentified		Yes.
		Well, what I heard yesterday on the USA network was thousands, a flock of thousands of birds electrocuted themselves over Washington, D.C. What?
		Yes.
		That's what I said.
		And I tried calling you last night and could not get through.
		It was yesterday afternoon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Electrocuted themselves in what fashion?
unidentified		The reporter seemed to say, I was so startled by it that it just blew me away.
unidentified		The reporter seemed to say that they had caused so much electricity with themselves somehow from being frantic or misguided or disorientated that they electrocuted themselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, well, well.
		I'm going to have to follow up on that.
		I don't have a story on it.
		Somebody, no doubt, will send me one, and I'll get it on the air, sir.
unidentified		We carry it.
unidentified		Perhaps one of your callers might call in on this to back me up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I guarantee we'll get some information on the air and we'll find out about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As you know, birds are involved in the case that we've been discussing tonight.
unidentified		Yes, I heard Mr. Zeiler mention that.
unidentified		That was why I wanted to call in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe we should ask Lisa.
unidentified		He has a comment on this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, George, do you?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		I have a question.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		What was the station that you heard it on?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He said he heard it on USA Radio Network News.
		So we're going to have to find out about it.
		I can guarantee within about a half hour here we'll have a story on it from somebody out there.
		But birds have been involved in a number of UFO cases, haven't they?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Many.
		Many.
		Nothing like that, though, where they would electrocute themselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, a lot of people believe, scientists, biologists believe that birds migrate along and navigate by magnetic lines that are on the Earth, right?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		There's no question about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And UFOs have been long reputed to disrupt electromagnetic fields and, as you pointed out earlier, stop cars and do all kinds of weird things that might involve certainly electromagnetism of some sort.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So birds acting strangely and out of character around UFOs might not be a big surprise, George?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Not to me.
		I mean, I've never seen it, nor have I investigated it, but I've read a lot in cases where it's happened.
		But this is pretty unusual, the case that Brooke brought up where they would actually electrocute themselves.
		You see them being disoriented, but I'd be real interested in the science.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, in the case he mentioned of the radio station in Tennessee, I interviewed the manager of that station.
		And they end up, by the way, moving the radio station.
		Some really odd things happened.
		And there were electromagnetic pulses that destroyed the phone equipment, almost all the electronic equipment of the station, and some adjacent businesses.
		Birds were actually brought out of mid-air, George, which were burned to a crisp.
		I mean, we had pictures of birds with their wings mostly burned off that just virtually fell out of the clear sky when this pulse hit.
		And that's what he was talking about.
		So birds, very interesting.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with George Zeiler.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Apple Valley.
		All right.
		I just want to relate a story you guys might find interesting.
		Sure.
		In 1959, my dad was in Logan, Utah, with about 100 other guys.
		They were building a church.
		My mom was there as well.
		And lo and behold, they saw something flying in the sky coming their way, and it was the classic saucer-shaped craft, but it was wobbling.
		And it went right over their heads and towards some hills.
		Of course, the guys had some binoculars and stuff, so they started passing around.
		Well, the craft crashed into the side of the mountain.
		Oh.
		And they could only see it with the binoculars.
		At first, they thought it went behind the mountain.
		Then when they got in the binoculars, they're like, no, it wrecked there.
		And they saw it roll down the mountain and into the reservoir there in Logan, Utah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
unidentified		So my dad told me this story, you know, many times.
		I love the story because UFOs are fascinating.
		And in the late 80s, I was working in a bookstore, and I ran into a guy who was buying UFO books constantly.
		And he happened to be an underwater salvage guy.
		So I told him my dad's story.
		He got together with my dad.
		They got a map out.
		He mapped out precisely the spot where it fell into the reservoir there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		And he flew up there and he dove the area.
		The only thing that was disappointing was, well, of course, there was no UFO there.
		But there was a dive school there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There was a what?
unidentified		A dive school at that spot in the reservoir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What's a dive school?
unidentified		Where people do scuba diving.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I see.
unidentified		Okay.
		So they did diving there, and I guess there was some kind of, they did military training there as well.
		So if there was anything there, Gone.
		But I was wondering if George or you had ever heard any accounts of this, because, you know, he said everyone saw it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have not.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		George, is there anything in Move On Records that would not one that rings a bell, but that was my question I was going to ask him if they saw any follow-up military aircraft or anything like that?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Because generally my experience with something like that is those areas get sealed off very quickly and there's no access to them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, they said there was military diving there, so as he pointed out.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		It probably answers the question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It probably does, yes.
		All right.
		First time caller align, you're on the air with George A. Zeiler of Move On.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		This is Scott calling from Austin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And I have a question concerning people who have been abducted by UFOs or allegedly abducted by UFOs.
		Do you feel that reports of this kind were on the rise, especially after the release of the movie Close Encounters?
		Also, I've had my own experience with a UFO, which took place in February of 1990 in Hayes County here in Wimberly.
		It was a triangular UFO, and it did not make a sound.
		And I saw it between 10.30 and 11 o'clock at night.
		And I looked around for people to make this report to, and I was finally led to NUFON.
		And they sent an investigator out to talk with me about it.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And over the course of our interview, we called the Hayes County Sheriff's Department to get transcripts of the reports of the UFO because I discovered that the night I made my report, there were several other reports made.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Now, when we called the Hayes County Sheriff's Department and asked for transcripts, I was put on hold for about seven minutes or eight minutes, and the guy came back on and said, we have no reports of any UFOs on that night or any other night.
unidentified		All the reports had just mysteriously disappeared.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, a former congressman from New Mexico went back and tried to find all the reports you may remember on what occurred at Roswell and found to his dismay that they had all been destroyed.
		All the reports had been destroyed.
		Not too unusual, George?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely not.
		In fact, in the case of Stan Romanek, here the case we've been talking about tonight, one of the things in the video that was very obvious was that there was a police car running code, code meaning red lights and siren.
		Right.
		There was an obvious fire truck running with red lights and siren.
		You could hear the difference in the sirens.
		And then there was also an ambulance that ran.
		Now, I personally contacted every police agency in the Denver metropolitan area in that area, and none of them had any reports, not only of the UFO, but they didn't have any reports of anybody running on an emergency run on an hour and a half time frame.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gee, and people wonder where the men in black stories come from.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		it's interesting because one of the things that I have set up is I'm going to have the opportunity to speak with the chief of police in the particular city where this took place and I'm going to let him listen to the video and then explain what it is.
		But you know, Buckley Air Force Base is also in Denver and that is the satellite input feed place for Cheyenne Mountain and they have all the radars and everything now.
		Stan's UFO was obviously very low at the beginning but it went up into the cloud cover at 17,000 feet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where it would be seen by radar if it was reflected.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And they didn't have any reports of that nor did the Aviation, Federal Aviation Agency or the Weather Service didn't pick it up on radar.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Amazing.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Which means that it had stealthy qualities because it was there.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Well, I had 11 witnesses that said that they had called Buckley to report it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And Buckley said nobody reported it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Which is ironic.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And just for the individual, I'd like to have his first name if I could from Austin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, he's already gone.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		But, you know, the fellow...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For people who want to follow up with you like that man or any others, how does somebody get hold of you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have a public email address?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I do.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		It's a UFO for you at AOL.com.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A UFO for you?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A UFO for you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that F-O-R or the number for?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		The number four.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For you at AOL.com.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, I'd certainly like to have that.
		You know, the phenomena of why do they have to do that?
		You know, the energy that's lost of talented people like John Mack and all of our consultants could be working towards solving the problem and working together in concert with our government rather than trying to discover what they know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a big question.
		Why do they do that?
		I mean, if there are 13 reports made, I guess it's irresistible.
		Without boring my audience to death with my sighting, I had a very close encounter sighting along with my wife.
		We contacted Nellis Air Force Base, not we, but the newspaper, because it was seen by many other people here in the area where I live, George.
		I contacted Nellis.
		And Nellis' response was, yes, there was a secret mission, quoting them, that may have overflown the Prump Valley on the night and time in question.
		However, the aircraft was a C-130.
		Now, that was an insulting, insulting response, in my opinion, to the reports of this silent triangle that flew over everybody here.
		It was a C-130.
		Well, I flew in the Air Force as well, in C-130s, in fact, and I can tell you, that's an insult.
		So, you know, whatever agency it is, and there are many, from the police all the way, although the police, some of them are getting better, to official government agencies, they simply are in total denial mode, sometimes to the ludicrous point, to the point where it's funny, and it is funny.
		You know, kind of like the, if you remember the Air Force news conference trying to explain away Roswell.
		I don't know if you happen to catch that.
		That was high humor.
		It was camp.
		It was so bad.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		I was, at the time that that took place, I was only about three months old.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
		Oh, yeah.
		Are you sure about how old are you now?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		I was born in May of 1947.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You were born in 47?
		Yes.
		Okay, well, I was born in 45.
		Now, the news conference I'm referring to only took place a few years ago.
		That was the one where they held up the dummies.
		You didn't catch that one?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, that was high camp humor, as far as I'm concerned.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was so awful.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I'll relate another one to you that just happened recently here in our own city that I live in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Again, Buckley called the police department because they had a radar sighting of something hovering over the southwest end of their Installation and they requested the police department to go out and see if they could see it, which they couldn't because of the light clutter.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		But on the instructions that they gave to the police department, they indicated that if anybody calls from the media or from civilians wondering what that is, just tell them that it's a supernova.
unidentified		What?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you serious?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		I'm serious.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A supernova.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		A supernova.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's, if anything, a little more, if you have a daytime sighting of a supernova, to me, that's a little more worrisome than anything, any...
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		I think we're in serious trouble if we do that.
		I don't know, but you know, they've got to be pretty funny.
		They've got to have fun with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, somewhere in a room, it's no doubt done by committee.
		Supernova came up.
		That's great.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with George A. Zeiler and Art Bell.
		Good morning.
		Morning.
		Hello.
		Where are you?
unidentified		Elton Reagan?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		This is our man Tim.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And I have a couple of questions for George and maybe can help a little bit with a couple answers.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		We will certainly try, sir.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, proceed.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sir, you're on the air, so go ahead.
unidentified		Okay, I'd like to speak with George a minute.
		I've had a...
		Right.
		My first dealings with the ETs was about 58 years ago.
		So I've had a leg up on some of this stuff probably about the time you fellas were born.
		And my first sighting was in 1947.
		But I've made quite a study of the cattle mutilations.
		And I've been in contact with one of the old military fellas that's been deeply involved with all of even picking up some crises that's been on your program.
		I don't know whether I should mention his name or not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't mind.
unidentified		Mr. Stone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Sergeant Stone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Seventh Stone, yes.
unidentified		Yes.
		And I visited with him personally in Roswell a little over a year ago, Herco last October.
		And it seems from what we can gather, the mutilations are being done.
		They're testing the animals for the contamination, mainly of the nuclear fallout.
		I know there's about 18 head up in Montana this year in one county, and there's silos every...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've got a break coming up, and I'd like to hear what you have to say.
		Hold on through the break, and we'll come right back to you.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		This is Coast to Coast A.M. It certainly is.
		George A. Zeiler from MUFON is here.
		And we're going to continue this hour with your questions.
		So stay right where you are.
unidentified		Oh, my God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, from MUFON, George A. Zeiler.
		George, welcome back.
		And we've got a call holding.
		So please proceed, sir.
unidentified		Yes, thank you very much, Art.
		I have had a lady here that's been involved in abductions more than once back in the 70s, 75 and 79.
		But we've had ships coming in quite regularly in around close to their house up here in the foothills of close to Pendleton.
		And I have that noted in the book that I recently put out.
		And also there's been sightings since.
		And other people have also cited them on the same evening to know that it's not a hoax.
		But the one thing that I'm investigating now is I find all of these people in this family have a lot of health problems.
		The missus had two different cancer surgeries.
		And the father of girl had his Patriot Sputnik shutdown on him, and he isn't even 60 yet.
		And the girl's about 30, and she's had two major surgeries in her throat for cis and is suffering greatly now from many different, well, her immune system is just zero, I would say, and she's only about 30.
		And when she came into my book signing in September, I got a little video, but she didn't even want to talk about it.
		She's got some very, very bad hang-ups with the whole thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So again, physical manifestations, you believe?
unidentified		Yes, absolutely.
		She's had two surgeries in her throat up in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, a little over a year ago, and now she's under treatment.
		And I'm trying to help her with herbs and such that should help.
		But, you know, with young people, a lot of times they don't cooperate to take care of themselves.
		But I did check with the museum in Roswell, which I've kept close contact with, and they said that they found quite a few people that have been abducted more than once that have health problems.
		George, have you got any knowledge of that?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, there's a lot of data on that.
		And Tim, I would encourage you to contact me through my email site.
		You know, one of the things that happens is people have different effects.
		I mean, some people have had messages sent to them.
		Some people have come on and been given technology.
		In fact, when you had Stanton Friedman on, we had an individual call from Amarillo, Texas, who we've lost track of, a man named Al from Amarillo, Texas.
		And we've been trying to get in touch with him.
		But he was given an extraordinary amount of technical data.
		There was a Lutheran pastor down in Texas that had the same thing.
		No technical background at all.
		And all of a sudden they're giving this physics equations, so to speak, on technical equipment.
		But then again, the manifestation of medical problems is real common.
		A lot of them end up with a lot of fear and hate toward the abductors.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's either that.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		It goes back to our previous discussion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, it's either that or it's love.
		A lot of people who have been abducted said they felt nothing but joy and love and happiness and all the rest of it.
		And I always thought, well, how could that be unless they were affected in some way by those who snatched them up?
		Because the natural human emotion would be fear and loathing, I think, in being kidnapped.
		I mean, that's a violation.
		It's like rape.
		You've been kidnapped.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How are you going to be happy about that?
		But a lot of people come back happy.
		And so the reason for that, I'm convinced, is that they've been brainwashed.
		That's right, brainwashed.
		Thank you.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, I think it's one of the problems within the ufology community.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, we talked about earlier, Art, that, you know, we need to be more future-thinking instead of this constant regressive investigation process where we're constantly looking into the past.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I feel Dr. Jacobs has a realistic way of looking at this all.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Very much so.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		I think David Jacobs, in fact, he's going to be one of our feature speakers at this year's symposium, which is going to be held in Rochester in New York in July.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But his is a minority view.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't think that any single person is right.
		That's my personal opinion.
		I think what's happened is the individual nature of ufologists has always been criticism from their peers.
		Rather than taking a collective investigative approach, like if you had a serial killer, you have a task force of multi-agencies get together in a think tank and use those kinds of tools to solve those.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's something I want to ask you about, George.
		Since you're at the top of the heap and move on, what I have observed in ufology and for that matter, other paranormal matters, big controversies concerning the 12th planet, the 10th planet, Niburo, the whole thing.
		People accuse each other of stealing each other's information.
		There's horrendous amounts of infighting that goes on, jealousy, anger.
		People who get into these terrible fights with each other within ufology.
		Now, ufology is hard enough to talk about under any circumstance because, you know, people are naturally skeptical, of course.
		But when all this infighting goes on, this horrible infighting, it's my information.
		I discovered it.
		It just drives me absolutely crazy because it takes a weak case and hurts it, to be honest with you.
		What are your comments on all this infighting that's going on?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I think Abraham Lincoln said it best.
		A house divided, you know, will never stand strong.
		I'm not so sure that it's not part of the process of disinformation, keeping that turmoil going.
		I happen to stand aside from it, and I don't get caught up in the fray and refuse.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's hard.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely, it's hard.
		I try to do just the opposite.
		I try to bring those sides together through reason, because our only chance at solving and really understanding the phenomena is to enjoy forces and to move in a common direction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I completely agree.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, I think we have to get away from the traditional approaches that have gone on for 53 years.
		And my response to that has been, even MUFON, is show me what you've done since 1947 and what have we solved.
		And we've learned a great deal, and we have an amazing amount of information, and we have a bunch of books written.
		But mainstream society is, it's not an acceptable topic.
		When you start getting into the anomalous, such as cattle mutilations, it gets pretty ugly.
		I mean, because it's gory.
		And it's not something you want to go out and just talk about, you know, on the street corner.
		Because, I mean, it's...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I just, I don't understand why it's going on.
		It may be part of some sort of disinformation campaign.
		It wouldn't take very much because people are human and they have egos, I suppose, and all you have to do is put a pin in the right place and an ego and it just goes nuts.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		I'm always right.
		And the truth is that all of us may have a single piece.
		We may be looking at such traditional approaches that we haven't looked to the real issues that may solve what it is.
		We've come a long way in police science.
		We've come a long way in our space science.
		But having trust in a few individuals, and that's what it boils down to.
		They have trust in a few individuals.
		And so they become icons, and so they're automatically right.
		But the argistic effect of combining them aren't is really what's going to propel us into the future.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Even some of the very best people that I've dealt with who are really, really good people have fallen into the trap of getting into these gigantic fights with other people in the field.
		And I understand how they fall into it, and I understand how it happens.
		But I also understand that it has to be stopped somehow, or a very difficult case is going to be impossible to prove.
unidentified		All right, let's continue first time caller line you're on the air with george zeiler hi hi my name is kevin and i'm here at fort phantom in abilene texas on klif yes sir um i'm a i was a combat engineer from 1979 to 1982 and i'm a recent graduate of abilene christian university i've i've had a mri before and i've witnessed many ufos and even an abduction from about a thousand meters away recently i just saw those 15
		supposed the Russian space thing that fell into the sky above Abilene and you got a call in all the way up to Omaha, Nebraska.
		And I witnessed lights on the craft, not like something that was burning up.
		Now through my studies, after my curiosity, I would like to know, have you heard of the Book of Death and the Necronomicon?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I haven't, George.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure I haven't either.
unidentified		It was dug up with the Egyptian mummies and it's factual.
unidentified		And the Bible, in the Book of Job and 2 Timothy refers to the Book of Death and the Book of Death refers to the Bible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you mean the Book of the Dead?
unidentified		Yes, sir.
		Okay.
		And I would like to know if you've noticed that the gate symbols that are supposedly to open up the abyss, to let the serpent out of the abyss that Revelations refers to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I have noticed that alien crop circles are these gate symbols to the Book of Death.
unidentified		And I would like to know if you've noticed that or studied at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Well, I have not.
		But there, George, is an example of a religious view.
		And that's what I was talking about a little bit earlier.
		There is a substantial portion of the population, and that man represents it just quite well, that believes that these are open gates and that evil entities are coming through them.
		And it's not something that you can reject.
		It's really not.
		It's as open a possibility, certainly, as little beings coming from other planets or people jumping through dimensional portals or whatever.
		I mean, something real is going on, but you can't rule that one out either, right?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely not.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And again, I would encourage Ken from Abilene to contact me because the information he has and his eyewitness reports are valuable information to us.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And your email address is a-u-f-o-4-u, the number four.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's A-U-F-O, number four, U-F-O.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		you at aol.com right that's correct okay you know he's really right that one of the things that that we've seen is the crop circles and ancient geometry there's some symmetry to that and you have to be open to viewpoints of everybody to really find the solution you know I don't think any of us have all the answers and
		and we're open to taking information from everywhere okay Wildcard line you're on the air with George A. Zeiler hi hello Art yes sir okay I've got a I've got a quick comment to put on before my question what seems funny to me is that they're not wanting to be covert if they were they would be going to areas where humans are secluded from the rest of our global civilization so why wouldn't they be picking
		to areas where they're obviously going to be in the open to study us, maybe as we study our closest cousins, so to speak, like we study the monkeys.
		But going on to my question, talking before when you guys mentioned about the government being defenseless against this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, sir, let me stop you for a second.
		That was interesting what you said.
		You know, if you look at the way we do study monkeys, we have some investigators that go into the field and at a distance observe their actions.
		We have a very few investigators who have gone and actually lived with monkeys and apes in the wild.
		That's very few of them.
		And then, of course, we do abductions.
		In other words, we actually take monkeys, and what do we do with them?
		We put them in cages, and frequently we experiment on them.
unidentified		And how evil we must seem to the monkeys.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in what measurable way is what's happening to us any different?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Well, it could be just to view our reactions to different stimuli.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		Well, maybe.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		But there's, you know, that speculation.
		I'm sorry to interrupt in there.
		But, you know, the historical aspect is that we've seen in petroglyphs, in howardlyphs, through generations.
		You know, seven or eight, nine thousand years where there are symbols representing UFOs and the symbols being there in art.
		So if you were going to study the monkeys and you wanted to see them in their own environment, like you said, Arch, you would go live with them, or you would go to where they are.
unidentified		Yes.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		You don't go into the secluded ones to find one separated from itself necessarily, just to study that one.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		You would want, if you were really doing it, you might look at that one, but you might also look at the masses.
unidentified		Caller?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anything else?
unidentified		Yeah.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Getting on to the point of the government being defenseless, I was wondering if your guest, or maybe any of the callers had ever heard of any military operation where a military vehicle, such as a guided missile or something, that either proceeding or following the loss of control of such a vehicle, there was a UFO or some sort of aerial anomaly there.
		had taken place before this vehicle left the control of its human controllers George?
		I'm sure that what the collar is referring to is the Vandenberg missile test, which is a pretty famous sighting where they launched the test missile and actually they filmed the UFO actually going around the outside of the propulsion and then they lost control of it and it detonated out over the ocean.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that what you were referring to, Paula?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		No, I was more referring to having heard all the stories about, you know, if just before a UFO sighting or something, a vehicle loses power, something goes dead, things go haywire.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		But more of if there was any instances known to where a vehicle left control of the original controllers, like the U.S. government or somebody, and not really went out of control, but was definitely controlled by a separate force.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Whereas something took over control of one of our devices.
		Well, I think the example you gave us was pretty close.
		I don't know, is there ever a case that you've been aware of of somebody actually taking control?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		No, and I think those are probably pretty closely guarded secrets if they do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would imagine so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would certainly be in the category of high defense classification.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And not declassified as of yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You, of course, know of the reports, George, of our ICBMs being deactivated by disks hovering above them?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Certainly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you aware of the reports of the Russian ICBM sites that had actually begun to activate with ICBM sites that were activated by discs hovering above them?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Had you heard that?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		No, but I heard that there were responses to UFO sightings that had caused ICBM troubles.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		The Russians to think that it was us launching.
unidentified		Indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Launching.
		Yes, indeed.
		All right, hold on.
		An investigator and deputy international director for MUFON, George A. Zeiler, is my guest, and we'll get right back to him.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, back now to George Zeiler.
		George, I've got a request from Misty in Montague, California.
		Please, she's asked George to tell more about the Vandenberg missile thing.
		I hadn't heard anything about this, so what do you know?
		Say it again.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my goodness, that's an awful large case in a very short period of time.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		But essentially, they were firing a test rocket, a test missile, down range.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And when it launched, they always photograph it just like they do any of the missile launches at Cape Canaveral.
		And as it's going up into the atmosphere, on the film, they showed it going around the warhead.
		It just virtually kept circling around it until it went out.
		And then they lost the guidance system, and it went out over the ocean and self-destructed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would these be, was that, now we see them from where I am here, we see the Vandenberg shots go up.
		They're quite spectacular if they're held just after sunset.
		Really neat to watch.
		Was that one of the ones set out over the Pacific as a target for a Star Wars type?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		No, no, this was actually a targeting exercise.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		What we can determine.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And they were looking at guidance systems and accuracy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So something circled it.
		There must be video that exists of this.
		I've never seen it.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		There was a large, it was like a ball of light going all the way around the nose cone of it, the actual warhead.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And as it went up and out, and a fairly controversial case.
unidentified		Was there any official explanation for it?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		No.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And the truth is it's probably didn't happen, according to the Air Force.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		But that's not, you know, that's not much different than saying, well, it is the Air Force doing these things, yet they send up fighter jets to chase them.
		And yet you never hear about that.
		That's right.
		So the sightings by the pilots, there's always a swamp gas or, you know, they just happen to see Aurora Borealis.
		You know, these are experienced people, but yet they discount the individual to eliminate the incident.
		And that's part of the psyops.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		About a week or two, I asked somebody about swamp gas, and actually, I've never heard anybody report swamp gas.
		I've heard it given as an explanation to explain almost everything, but I've never really heard a report of swamp gas.
		I'm not even exactly sure what swamp gas is.
		I guess it's something that hovers over a swamp theoretically, but I've never really heard much talk of swamp gas per se, always just to explain something that doesn't seem at all like swamp gas.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		That works.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That works.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		I don't understand it, so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Swamp gas and stars exploding, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Supernovas.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Supernova, sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Western the Rockies.
		You're on the air with George Zeiler.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		This is Dave from Oregon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Dave.
unidentified		Well, I saw something strange down in Maryland.
unidentified		I'm not sure if it qualifies, but it was like a cloud, but it was sort of like rainbow color, you know?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		It was sort of like...
		It just looked flat.
		So have you ever heard of anything like that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are many, many reports, are there not, George, of things that are somewhere in between a UFO and a cloud, or UFOs in clouds, or UFOs that morph from clouds and all kinds of combinations with clouds, all right?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		But that doesn't mean that it's necessarily what you saw was it.
		It's hard to say.
		It could have been the clouds and the way that the light was reflecting and the moisture content in the clouds or where there were ice crystals.
		I mean, there's a thousand different little scientific explanations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sometimes here in the desert, George, we get very high winds.
		And when you get very high winds, you get these odd-looking clouds that if you didn't know better, you'd say it's gigantic UFO, but they're not.
		They're clouds.
		First time calling our line, you're on the air with George A. Zeiler.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, gentlemen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How are you tonight?
unidentified		Fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My name is Roy.
unidentified		I'm from Orange County, California.
		Yes, sir.
		And when I first heard you, Art, describe what you have seen in your area, it just floored me because, I mean, my heart started pounding because it's been four years I've been living with this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I've seen this object that you're talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The triangle.
unidentified		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And I was leaving my facility.
unidentified		I'm a systems engineer, and I was leaving.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was around 11 o'clock at night.
unidentified		And as I was walking out from my vehicle, I had turned, I was putting the key in there, and I looked over the top of the facility itself, and I saw the object moving slowly over the top of the facility, triangular shaped, very large, quiet.
unidentified		Did not make any sound, and it was moving slowly over the top.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was stunned.
		I didn't know what to think at the time, and I could just sit there in disbelief.
		And I'm looking, and I blinked my eyes, and I just knew it was there.
unidentified		I got into my vehicle as it was moving over the back of the facility.
unidentified		I opened up my sunroof on my Jeep so I could look out through the top of it as I was moving behind the building.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was watching my direction on my computer over the top of just on the ceiling.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it was viewing northeast.
unidentified		I was watching it through the sunroof as it was moving over the back, and then this thing disappeared like a snap of a finger fast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And we have surveillance cameras at the facility.
unidentified		And I'm thinking, wow, you know, maybe something got caught.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've nailed it on tape, yes.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I didn't say anything that evening, but the next day I went in and I talked to our security team because I work at a high-tech facility and we have lots of surveillance equipment.
unidentified		They told me that the surveillance equipment was not working that night.
		Okay?
		And that's the only answer I got.
		I didn't tell them I saw anything, and I stayed quiet about the whole thing, a matter of fact, until this now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Probably a wise decision.
unidentified		Yes, exactly.
		And I guess my question for George, too, would be how many reports of this object have been seen, and are we the only ones here that have seen it?
		Now, I've seen this just on the other side of Pendleton.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was moving from, I'd say, Pendleton towards Area 51, to be honest with you.
		All right, let's ask George.
		George, my wife and I both saw a triangular object.
		It came about 150 feet over our heads.
		It was gigantic, about 11 o'clock at night, totally silent, maybe 30 miles an hour.
		As I say, triangular, solid, not like a balloon, which some people have suggested at all, but very solid, and just totally black.
		But there was almost a full moon, and stars were bright, and it was quiet out here, and it just floated above our heads and floated on out toward Area 51.
		And this caller is relating something just like that.
		A lot of triangle reports, right?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		I was just looking through the stack of reports that I had laid out, which over the last couple, three weeks, and there's probably 10 or 12 from around the world, not just in the United States.
		I mean this phenomenon is not just in the United States.
		I mean it's all over the world.
		That were just triangles.
		Now just as an aside to that art, if you take a disc and turn it sideways to you like a dime, if you turn the dime on its side, it's flat and you only see the side of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		But if you tip it up, it becomes round.
unidentified		Right.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		So the optical illusion of what we see isn't always necessarily the external structure of the craft itself.
		It may be the side that you're seeing.
		Of course.
		In Estes Park, Colorado, and ironic enough, it was September, and that's one of the things we're looking at is the timing of when they show up in relation to astronomical position.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does there seem to be a relationship?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Sure, because the sightings run in flaps.
		We call them flaps.
		They come at different periods of time.
		Like in September when Stan saw his on the 20th, we had reports from 11 different cities seeing similar type objects.
		And that's the other thing that's noted is that generally the sightings run consistently with various forms and colors.
		But this one in Estes Park, a whole family saw the ball of light come up and it went over their house.
		And it was the size of the house.
		But it went over about 20 feet over the top of their house.
		And this is a daytime sighting.
		And they could look up underneath it.
		And what they described underneath was, when they looked at it from the bottom, was a triangle, which I found absolutely amazing.
		So it may be the internal structure that you're really looking up to when you're looking up vertical, you know, at a 90 or 70 or 50 degree angle.
		You're seeing the triangle, but when you see it at a distance, it really is a circle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, not this one, George.
		The one that my wife and I saw, as I say, was about 150 feet above us.
		I'm going to look at it.
		We saw this, George, because my wife was able to somehow sense the movement over her shoulder, and so we caught it before it even passed over us, stopped the car, got out, and watched it as it approached, moved directly over us, and then we stood and watched it float out over the Prompt Valley toward Area 51.
		And I say float, not fly, because at 30 miles an hour there's no aerodynamic flight going on, and there's no sound going on.
		You could hear crickets quarter mile away.
		This thing was defying gravity, and it was not a balloon.
		I can assure you, it was not a balloon.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		It wasn't a jet-propelled because combustible engines.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, it wasn't jet-propelled.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nor was there any sound at all associated with its propulsion.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's very typical, and again, witnesses like your caller, those are important sightings from very...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where, I wonder, does it all lead, George?
		If we put a million, two million, five million reports together, where does it get us ultimately?
		Does it really break things open?
		Does the government finally throw up their hands at two million reports and say, Eric, we can't hold on to this anymore.
		Here's the information.
		Or does it not matter?
		I mean, could we put together all the reports?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I think there's a couple of things that pass through my head when you ask me that.
		The first one is, and it's a more global question.
		Are we being psychologically conditioned?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Okay?
		You know what I'm talking about, the 2001 monolith concept?
		Brainwashed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, it's one possibility.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Are we being induced for acceptance?
		That's a question that hasn't been answered.
		The answer on the lesser scale on is that information important?
		You know, everybody views physical evidence differently, and what they expect for proof is different for everybody.
unidentified		Sure is.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		But what we have to realize is there's all kinds of interactions, but we may be missing the subtle interactions.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		So it's the combination of those things that someday is going to give us a key.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's like the assassination of President Kennedy.
		If somebody were to tomorrow get in front of, hold a news conference and say, I killed President Kennedy, nobody would even notice.
		There have been so many theories about who killed Kennedy and the whole cover-up and all the rest of it that if the truth were to suddenly come out in a news conference tomorrow, nobody would even know it.
		It would just be piled on with the rest of the, I don't know, 10 tons of information about that assassination and all the theories behind it.
		Now, if we were to suddenly hear the absolute truth about UFOs, how would we know it?
		George, I've had hundreds, if not thousands, of pictures on my website over the years of UFOs.
		And I found, and no doubt, you know, a high percentage of them may be fake, but a lot of them I think are not.
		And I find that when I have a picture that's slightly blurry, people say, aha ha ha, a blurry picture, another blurry picture of a UFO.
		If I have a very clear photograph, they complain it's too clear.
		Got to be fake.
unidentified		Too clear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So will there ever be, ever be the kind of evidence that's irrefutable that just nobody can deny?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't think so.
unidentified		Short, short, shortable.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		It begins to reach that level.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		But how do you get it out to the people?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's on my website.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		They can go watch right now.
		And I applaud you for that.
		You know, and that's what we all hope for, and that's what we work for.
		It's the ultimate question art, and it's people like yourself and the thousands of volunteers in Lufon and other organizations that are working toward that and the education of the public, the counter-PSYOPS, if you will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think I kind of like your theory of slow-release medicine, that we are slowly being prepared for the truth, and then when it finally arrives, we'll all go, well, gee, what a surprise with a yawn.
		Wildcardline, you're on the air with George A. Zeiler.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hello, George.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		This is David from Florida.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Hi, Dave.
		I was contacted by UFOs in 1974 of December.
		I was sleeping on my mother's couch, and I heard voices.
		I thought my friends were like waking me up at night.
		And when I looked up, there was a UFO and a cloud, and it spoke.
		It said, David, do you know of I?
		And then a second one appeared.
		It said, David, do you know of thee?
		Then a third one appeared.
		It said, David, do you fear thou?
		And I answered back, I do not fear thee because I do not know of thou, Boo.
		That was the first time.
		There was another time, but a week later I was arrested.
		And from the substation, I was taken to Homestead Air Force Base.
		And these two guys were talking to me that knew a lot about me, even my girlfriend's name, trying to get out what I just told you.
		But I didn't tell them.
		But since this was 74, and I'm getting old, I thought I'd just like to get it off my chest.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Well, David, I would certainly like you to contact me because that's one of the things that I have great interest in.
unidentified		There's more to it, but we don't have that much time to talk about it.
		I'd be glad to talk to somebody.
		I'm even willing to be hypnotized.
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there you go.
		The email address for George is AUFO4, the number for U. That's A-U-F-O-4-U at A-O-L.com.
		And I'm sure you would appreciate that, right, George?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		If he doesn't have an email, he can call us at MUFON Headquarters if you don't mind me giving the number out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go right ahead.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Okay, it's area code 303-932-7709.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		And that is also our hotline for any reports of UFO sightings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's give that out again.
		Area code 303-932-7709.
		So that's a hotline.
		So, George, if you should come upon breaking information, if a flap should suddenly occur, would you be willing to contact my network because I can get you on the air El Pronto?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		You know, we get continuous reports in all the time, and we'd be happy to supply that information for you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that would be a great service for us.
		That, again, folks, the hotline area code 303-932-7709.
		And George, it has been a real pleasure having you on tonight.
		And I hope that, in fact, I trust that we will have you on again soon.
		I think your participation in MUFON is very valuable for MUFON.
		Bringing the skills of a professional investigator to this is valuable.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you so much.
		It's been a pleasure for me and for all your listeners.
		MOFON, again, is a 5013C volunteer organization.
		We're always looking for people, and we're funded only by the donations of people.
		So whatever they can do to help us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So if somebody would like to make a donation through email or that phone number, they could get more info, right?
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		George, thank you for being here.
george zeiler ▲ ● ▼		It's been my pleasure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have a good night.
		Well, folks, that's it for tonight from the high desert.
		The high moldy desert.
unidentified		When it's all right, it is coming home.
unidentified		We're going to get right back to where we're starting for.

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