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Dec. 19, 2001 - Art Bell
02:47:11
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Kevin Mitnick - Computer Hacking
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♪♪ From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I
bid you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be in all 24 time zones.
Served worldwide by Coast to Coast AMI, I'm Art Bell.
Bye.
Well, in the next hour, we are going to have the world's most famous hacker.
People have been asking me to have him on for years.
Kevin Mitnick.
I'm just going to hold everything for next hour.
I mean, it's going to be incredible.
Kevin Mitnick did some things you're just not going to believe.
And of course, he was put in jail for these things, and even now I guess there are restrictions upon his... I mean, it's like he's not allowed to touch a computer or something.
We'll find out in depth.
That's a great thing about long-form talk radio.
Instead of sort of getting the headline sound by part of it, tonight we'll find out what Kevin McNick is all about.
And that's something you just can't do in short form, anything out there.
All right, in war news.
At least two senior Taliban officials are among five prisoners being held now aboard a Navy ship off the coast of Pakistan.
Hmm.
One of the other three is the American who fought with the Taliban.
One, an Australian associated with the Taliban.
One, a Saudi Arabian official of a humanitarian organization accused of having terrorist ties.
So they've got two senior Taliban officials on a ship off the coast, hmm?
Wonder what they're doing.
You think they're asking them questions?
Do you think perhaps somewhere down in the bowels of the ship You can imagine sort of creaky pipes and chains hanging around and dripping and, you know.
No, of course, we're not keeping them alive.
As a matter of fact, I understand that we are treating them as prisoners of war, including Walker.
However, are we above sending in guys in suits who will land in choppers on that ship Who will privately ask them a lot of questions?
With prejudice?
I think not.
I think we're probably going to do that.
We'll learn a lot.
Al-Qaeda captives revolted on a bus en route to a jail Wednesday.
Killed their six Pakistani guards.
Then seven of the prisoners died trying to get away.
Twenty others remained on the run.
There is a hectic search going on right now.
Prisoners among 156 Al-Qaeda members captured by Pakistani provincial officials since Sunday after the fighters slipped from Afghanistan into Pakistan.
Zacharias Mosseri, the first person indicted in the September 11 attacks appeared today in the suburban Washington courthouse where he'll face trial sat silently.
Not so much as a flinch as the charges were read by the U.S.
Magistrate there.
33 years of age, charged with conspiring to commit acts of terrorism, aircraft piracy, destruction of aircraft, use of weapons of mass destruction, murder of U.S.
employees, and destruction of U.S.
property.
I would imagine that would carry with it the federal death sentence.
Looks like there's a siege going on in Argentina.
Did you know about that?
The president there declared a state of siege to deal with widespread rioting and looting sparked by a deepening economic crisis.
So, when times get tough, the tough loot.
Anthrax.
This is interesting.
The Anthrax investigation is focused on fewer than now a dozen laboratories ...that have worked with the deadly virus.
Investigators working to identify the genetic fingerprints of the anthrax that, you know, each letter used.
The goal is to match the anthrax used in the attacks with anthrax at each lab site.
Apparently, the anthrax that was used by researchers for decades I've got a Washington Post article here that I'd like to read you in part, at least.
the country and they virtually said we know it's a domestic source now.
I've got a Washington Post article here that I'd like to read you in part, at least.
As you know since I interviewed Pam, that wonderful lady last week, that had, again
I say it's such a profound influence on me, that whole interview.
It's just very profound.
I have email which, you know, says it can't be true.
It simply, absolutely can't be true.
There's something wrong with the story.
No, there isn't something wrong with the story.
The lady had an aneurysm.
Which was, you know, a balloon ready to go in her head, and they drained all the blood from her body, lowered her body temperature to 50 some odd degrees, her heart stopped, her brain activity stopped, and they were monitoring that.
This is at one of the more prestigious medical centers in the whole country.
All of this is extremely well documented, and she was dead.
D-E-A-D, dead.
No brain activity for an hour.
And of course, the whole night was in how she was able to detail what went on during that hour.
And how could she do that, of course?
How could she possibly do that?
Unless she was detached from her body.
In what some laughingly refer to as a soul.
Well, look, these are, you know, this is not in question.
I mean, these are, these are facts, folks.
Nevertheless, I get a lot of angry emails saying it's baloney.
Oh, no, it's not.
As I said, we will pursue her doctor and get her doctor on the air.
Washington Post article.
A 44-year-old man who had collapsed in a meadow was brought to a hospital unconscious.
He had no pulse.
No brain activity.
Let me repeat, no brain activity.
Doctors began artificial respiration, heart massage, and brought out the paddles.
A nurse trying to feed a tube down the man's throat saw that he was wearing dentures.
The nurse removed them, put them on a stand, called a crash car.
The patient was then moved into intensive care.
Now, A week later after the patient had recovered.
Bear in mind, this is from the Washington Post.
A week later after the patient had recovered, the nurse saw the man again.
The man immediately recognized the nurse.
Remember now, this was a moment when he had zero brainwaves.
Nothing.
Dead.
Right?
So the man immediately recognized the nurse as the person who had removed his dentures And also remembered other details of what had happened while he was in a deep coma.
He said he had perceived the events from above his hospital bed and watched the doctor's efforts to save his life.
The account might be standard, fair, and a supermarket tabloid, but last week it was published in the Lancet.
Remember I read that to you a British medical journal it is the latest in a long series now of efforts to either document or debunk the existence of near-death experiences something that for the most part has remained in the realm of the paranormal and It goes on and on this is a long article with more of the same people who have died in And I'm talking about zero brain activity.
No neural little neurons firing from one neuron to the other.
None of that dead flat line.
The brain is not functioning.
Now the only possible explanation, the only possible explanation for this is that there is something within all of us Which is, or at least in 18% of the cases, this has been true.
So in at least 18% of us, maybe only some of us have souls, I don't know how you interpret that figure,
but in 18% people who are clinically truly dead, no heartbeat, in some cases, no blood,
no brain activity, absolute zero, are describing in intimate, accurate detail
what's going on while they're dead.
It is one of the more interesting avenues that I imagine I could pursue,
and I will pursue doggedly until I get some, well, you know what?
I really already have some answers, personal answers.
And for a good part of my life, I've had, what's the right word?
You know, I really don't want to say the wrong word.
I've had reservations about the concept of a soul.
I've had hopes and imaginings that certainly it seems as though all of this is, I don't know, created.
You know, it's not just a big accident of thousands or millions of years of evolution, depending on who you believe.
So, is there any bigger question in life than this one?
And we're beginning to get fairly close to some answers.
At least for me, and I'm a pretty tough nut when it comes to believe it or not.
I know a lot of you say, oh yeah, right.
You believe all this stuff.
No, I don't.
I'm just like you.
I present things on the air.
And some I believe and some I do not believe.
What I do, however, is allow my guests to tell their story the best way they can.
And they're certainly going to do that by not tearing them apart.
So I don't tear them apart.
And because I don't, a lot of people conclude I automatically agree with or believe whatever I'm told.
That's absolutely inaccurate.
In fact, actually, I'm kind of tough nut.
But on this question of the soul surviving Physical death.
I'm beginning to become convinced.
I tell you, I'm very close.
So, the Washington Post now is printing articles on this.
They're getting interested, too.
And you know they should.
Keith should probably get this article up for you.
I'm obviously going to be on a kick here for a while about this.
I mean, how could you not be?
How could you have heard the interview with Pam Reynolds that I did?
I hope you heard it.
If you didn't, somehow I'm going to get that repeated.
Guarantee, guarantee I'm going to get that repeated for you.
And then one more little note here, and then we'll go to open lines until Kevin Mitnick.
Hotspots.
This is...
This is a very interesting article about hotspots in the Earth.
The headline is, Wandering Hotspots.
Wandering, mind you.
Wandering Hotspots Worry Geologists.
This is by Betsy Mason.
Hotspots where plumes of molten magma break through the Earth's crust appear to be wandering across the planet.
Well, say what?
Wandering across the planet?
A discovery that undermines many of the accepted ideas about how the Earth's tectonic plates are moving.
Oh my goodness, could we be wrong about how the Earth's tectonic plates move and build pressure against each other and so forth?
Geologists thought that magma plumes, such as the one that created the Hawaiian Islands, remain in place as the plates of the Earth's crust move over them.
For years, they have used these hotspots, so-called, As a fixed frame of reference to gauge the motion of the Earth's plates relative to the Earth's core.
The Hawaiian Islands and their underwater neighbors, the Emperor Seamounts, were used by geologists as a record of the path followed by the plate that makes up the floor of the Pacific.
The islands formed, you see, as the plume of upwelling magma erupted onto the surface of the floor, creating volcanoes.
But, A new study by Robert Duncan of Oregon State University in Corvallis and his colleagues shows the Hawaiian hotspot has probably shifted.
The researchers measured the direction in which the minerals in the volcanic rocks of the islands were magnetized.
When the lava flows that formed the islands cooled and solidified, the minerals lined up with the Earth's magnetic field providing a record of their location at the time.
So in other words, the whole finding will challenge ideas about how the plates have shifted in the past.
For example, a prominent bend in the Hawaiian emperor Seamount chain that occurred 43 million years ago was thought to have been caused when the Pacific plate suddenly changed direction.
And now some geologists are simply throwing that whole idea overboard in favor of a Moving Hotspot.
So many things that our scientists have thought are the case simply are not the case at all.
And by the way, the article I just read you by Betsy Mason, in part, is in New Scientist.
So, even the most basic concepts that a lot of our scientists have had about, you know, the way things happen, well, it just may not be true.
And that's why so many of the things that you hear on this program, even though you must separate it from some of the BS which inevitably arise, are also true, and with time, turn out to be absolutely true.
And people say, Oh my God, you guys had that on the air a year ago.
You knew about that six months ago.
And now it's big breaking news.
Well, it shouldn't be a surprise.
Because we're always sort of out here on the edge.
And so inevitably, we stumble across things weeks, months, even years ahead of others.
Basically, because we have no fear.
I'm not having to worry about not being tenured as a talk show host, I suppose, or tenured in any other way, and so I have no risk.
I have not published scientific papers, though I have written books.
and so I don't have to worry about staking my career on anything because frankly my career is built around presenting this kind of information that's out on the edge so very little risk for giving you guys the what we consider to be the straight stuff at any given moment may or may not be but gee whiz an awful lot of times lately it certainly has turned out to be dead on the money so the people who want to know what is going to happen listen to this program West of the Rockies, you are on the air.
Hello.
Hi.
Hi.
Who's this?
This is Pat in Portland, Oregon, KEX.
All right, Pat.
Now, I'm going to tell you something that I'm very upset about.
Uh-oh.
I live in a low-income high-rise.
I'm on the 11th floor.
Okay.
Okay.
And I had...
I had to catch...
I had a lady who used to watch Animal Planet with me.
And then I had Murdoch.
Murdoch was 22.
Lady was 18.
Those are both pretty good age for cats.
Yeah, but Art... What happened?
They sprayed the building with some kind of insecticide or some kind of pesticide or something.
And Lady died Saturday after Thanksgiving, and I had to have Murray put down, because they were, I'm sorry, they were so sick.
So how do you know it was the insecticide that did it?
Because it smelled, it came in through the cracks, and I didn't, I had the windows open.
Yeah, but you need more than that.
Well, I have a dead body, I mean... Well, no, no, no, I mean in terms of proving that that's what killed your cats.
You know, cats do come down with things and pass it from one to the other.
Listen dear, hold on a moment.
I'm at a break point here.
Just hold on a line there.
You see, I understand that lady.
I mean, if suddenly my cats, and I've got four of them, thank you very much, were to die, and I thought it was, you know, something somebody had sprayed, I'd be after their asses big time.
Big time.
But I don't think we know it was that, exactly.
Not from what she said, not yet.
Well, I think it's time to get ready To realize just what I have been
I have been only half of what I am Oh, clear to me now
Responsible, practical And then they showed me a world
Where I could be so dependable Oh, clinical.
Oh, intellectual.
Cynical.
There are times when all the world is still.
The questions run too deep.
For such a simple mind.
For such a simple man Won't you please, please tell me what's in my head
I know it sounds absurd But please tell me who I am
I said, what would you say? I'll be calling you a radical A liberal, or a magical criminal
Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nigh from Western the Rockies at 1-800-9-4.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
1-800-825-5033. First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295. To reach out on the toll-free
international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-424-727-1222.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
It sure is.
Good morning, everybody.
We'll get back to open lines and this lady with her cats in a moment.
And once again, here's that poor lady whose cats died.
Nye, you're back on the air.
You know, you need what you need, ma'am.
You need to have your vet do a toxicology report on your cats, probably an autopsy.
You need to find out what killed your cats.
I tried with the vet to have that done, and he just kind of poo-pooed it.
No, you can demand it.
You can demand it, ma'am.
My ex-daughter-in-law.
Not as a matter of law, you'll have to pay for it, but trust me, you can go to a veterinarian and demand, and get a toxicology report, and if it is a pesticide that killed your animals, you go after them.
That's what I do.
That's a low-income, high-rise, and they don't, they wouldn't even, you know, if I could do a lawsuit, It wouldn't make any difference to them.
Well, yes it would.
I don't want to go into the details, obviously, of what could be a legal case on the air.
But you trust me when I tell you, if you want to, you go find a veterinarian and you get a toxicology report, which isn't going to be all that expensive, and have an autopsy done if you can.
And if it was indeed something they did, go after their butts!
That's all there is to it.
And if that happened to my cats, you can bet I'd want to know what killed them.
Because there are diseases that can be passed easily.
You know, feline leukemia is one, and they'll waste away very quickly.
It's horrible.
Absolutely horrible.
So, you're gonna have to find out what really killed them.
I'm sorry for your loss, and I understand.
They're like our children.
First time caller line, you're on the air.
Hi.
Oh, how are you?
I'm okay, sir.
Boy, that last caller, that's too bad.
Yeah, but she's got to find out what really happened.
Yeah, we've... Question for you, Gripen.
Gripe tonight, so thanks in advance for hearing me complain.
The U.S., our school systems aren't set up for gifted kids.
Our school systems are set up for the... Average.
Or low-end.
If you look at special ed gifted as being gifted, which it is, our school systems are set up and receive money for the kids We're low-functioning.
I've got a son at just six who's at about a 7th to 8th grade level.
One of the kids you see, unfortunately, that goes to college at 12 or 13.
Then you're going to have to get this child into a special school, that's all.
There aren't any.
Oh, yes, there are.
Yes, there are, sir.
Outside of picking up and moving, yeah, there's three in the country.
Well, I mean, yeah, but there are other schools for gifted children.
They're a rarity, but they're not that rare.
But not really gifted, not like... If you've got a genius, is this your son?
Yeah.
If you've got a genius on your hands, then you've got some responsibility to find one of these places, maybe even move if you have to.
You sound like... Are you in a truck right now?
Yeah, I'm sorry, I am.
You're in a truck.
Okay, well then you're a moving around guy anyway, right?
Well, yes.
And that gets into the kind of conspiracy theory that Dad, boy, are these places preyed upon by the government?
My son has a purely photographic memory.
I mean, he can understand.
No, it's not.
It's not a conspiracy, sir.
It might feel like one, I'm sure.
But in fact, you know, the educational system in America is aimed at the center.
You know, and we argue a lot about where that center is intellectually, but it's aimed at the center.
And so your son does not belong there.
I love your show.
this is the end of the world. I am not going to be able to do it. I am going to have to
go to a special school. That's all there is to it. Move if you have to.
I am going to have to go to a special school. I am going to have to go to a special school.
The real discovery channel. It's mind boggling a lot of the things you've been talking about
regarding souls and what happens to the brain and stuff.
Right.
And I don't want to say this name on the air, but I know someone who probably has very vast knowledge about this.
And to tell you a little bit without saying his name, he's been researching for about 15 years.
Is this a public person?
Uh, they're public in the sense that there's a new book on the market that, uh, he has written.
Okay, so say the name.
I don't care.
Okay, his name's Dr. Daniel, uh, G. Eamon.
And he wrote a book?
Eamon Clinic over in, uh, Sacramento.
And he wrote a book about what?
Images Into the Mind.
Images what?
Images Into the Mind.
Okay.
And, uh, I know for at least a decade, probably 15 years, he's been researching a lot of this sort of thing by Uh, using what's called a single photon emitted computed tomography machine.
And it literally tracks, uh, the electrical waves that travel through the brain, cell by cell, synapse by synapse, in real time.
Yes.
Like moving pictures.
Yes.
As opposed to MRIs that take still pictures.
Okay.
And, uh, he's applied this in a lot of different, uh, unique ways, and he was, for a long time, I think, considered experimental.
But what's the bottom line?
Well, a lot of the subjects you've been talking about, I think the bottom line is this guy, he might be willing to go on your show, but I think he would have a lot of knowledge that he could add to these subjects that we're pondering.
Well then, get him on here.
Write him an email.
Tell him we're hunting for him.
But I'll mention one last thing.
I noticed, and this goes back to May 21st, On the cover of Newsweek magazine, they were looking at the Timothy McVeigh execution.
Yes.
And the cover story said, evil.
What makes people go wrong?
Yeah.
And they quoted this Dr. Amen in this book.
Obviously, Newsweek considered him probably one of the best minds on the subject.
Okay.
Sold.
Sold.
Absolutely sold.
I mean, get me some information on the fellow.
The best way, I know a lot of people want to guess on who think are going to be very good on one subject or another.
He sounds very good.
Well, get us some info we can track.
Publishers, names of books, that's good.
Any phone numbers you might have, even the beginning contact, that's good.
Any leads you can give us, that's good.
And then happy to track somebody down, particularly on this subject.
But as far as I know, In one of the best medical surgical facilities in the United States, this woman's brain was dead.
No firing of their neurons we were just talking about.
No communication between from cell to cell.
Nothing.
Zero.
Flatline.
Just like when you turn off the power on your computer.
Gone.
History.
No electrons moving.
Now, if that doesn't go a hell of a long way toward proving that there is some sort of consciousness continuation after physical death, then I don't know what does.
Ease to the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello?
Hello?
Yes, sir, you're on the air.
Okay, well, first off, I wanted to say I've been listening to you since September 11th, and I've had friends tell me I need to listen.
And ever since then, if there's a radio around and I can control it, It's you.
That's very kind.
I was listening to the lady talk about her poor cats.
We had a blue point Persian.
We had her for years and didn't, you know, never had a problem with her until we bought the home we're in and moved in here.
Right.
When we moved in here, she was very skittish.
Okay.
Right.
And, you know, after being in here a couple of months, we noticed weird things happening.
Like, you know, you put something one place and you get next morning, you find it someplace else.
Yes.
You'd hear people walking upstairs, you know, and she would be sleeping peacefully on the footstool and all of a sudden she'd just perk up and just bolt and dash upstairs and hide behind the toilet in the hall bathroom upstairs.
Oh, you had an entity in the house.
Right.
And this went on for months.
And one night I was sitting here watching TV and she was on the footstool and she just perked up and she started hissing and she was hissing in my direction.
Right.
And I was kind of glad I was on the phone with a friend of mine when all this was happening, because next thing I know, I told him, I says, this thing is around, whatever it is, whatever she sees.
And the next thing I know, it passed right through me.
The entity passed through you?
I tried calling you when you had your special line about people being attacked.
I understand, very busy.
What did it feel like when this happened?
The only way I can describe this, and this is going to sound kind of corny, but take your most pleasurable, intimate experience and multiply it by ten.
Really?
And it was just like, oh my God.
The minute I felt like it went completely through me, the cat took off and went upstairs.
Well, I mean, you think about it, sex is being real close to somebody, right?
Yeah.
But somebody actually going all the way through you, that's got to be really intimate.
It was just, I mean, it was awesome, okay?
And we've been in here now almost ten years, and unfortunately, Canasta passed away about two years ago.
Your cat?
My cat, yes.
And we haven't had any experiences with him whatsoever.
Since?
And we've even come up with a name and we know this much that it was a young male who was a college student here at UT.
Well, are you familiar with the term familiar?
You know what a familiar is?
I don't know.
Okay, you don't know what a familiar is.
Alright, uh, to a, uh, somebody involved in the, in the arts.
You know, the craft, they call it.
Right.
A familiar is an animal, uh, that will attach itself to you.
Okay.
Like, frequently, a cat, for example.
And, uh, it may well be that your cat was bringing this to you.
Why?
Huh.
Well, I don't know, sir.
I don't have all the answers.
I just do a talk show.
I'm just telling you a possibility, and you said it stopped when your cat passed.
When she passed, but it didn't start until we actually got into the place we're in now.
Right.
And that's when it all started.
I know, but a familiar you see would be a channel for that sort of thing.
Okay.
Just a guess, but probably a pretty good one.
Okay.
All right?
Cool.
Thanks a lot.
Thank you very much for the call and take care.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Good morning.
Hello, this is Tyler calling from Reno, Nevada.
How you doing, Tyler?
Good.
Quick question for you.
I'm a big fan of, I'm a huge fan of your show.
And up until recently, I've been a huge fan of the X-Files, but I've been noticing that they've sort of been having some difficulty with the writing on the show lately.
So very quickly, I was wondering, have you been approached to be a consultant for paranormal and conspiracy-style stories for that show, number one?
And the second question is, I understand you had an interview with Chris Carter a while back, which is legendary.
I've never heard it.
Is there any chance that that might get rebroadcast sometime in the future?
There's always a chance, sure.
Yeah, that was a good interview.
That was a lot of fun.
Charles, what can I do about that?
With respect to your first question, no.
Well, we did talk, I did talk to Chris a little bit about the X-Files, but I don't, you know, I'm not doing television.
I have been besieged by people wanting me to do television shows, big networks, and
I thought really long and hard about it and I don't want to do it.
The formats that are offered, even for television, what's a long-form format, you know, an hour,
it's not enough.
It's not enough to do what I do.
What I do is, well, I don't know what I do, is whatever I do here on the radio, and television just is not suited.
It's built into these little segments It's rehearsed, and even if you have a live show, you know, it's pretty well planned out ahead exactly what's going to happen.
I can't handle that.
I want the unexpected, the unknown, and so I've turned down television many, many, many, many times, and they just cannot understand it.
It seems like the more you say no, the more they come after you, but I'm just not going to do it.
I've really thought hard about this.
This is my medium, this long-form radio stuff.
Uh, where you can really get your teeth into something.
And television just doesn't allow that.
You know, they need the visuals.
They need a lot of things, and they just can't afford the luxury of sitting back sometimes and just contemplating a subject for a long time.
That's not TV.
You know, TV's minute by minute.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello.
East of the Rockies, call toll-free 1-800-825-5033.
Oh, no.
Nah, see?
1-800-825-5033.
Oh no, now see, made me bleep that out.
We don't allow people to give last names on the air, Richard.
Yes.
So I bleeped that out.
Your name is Richard?
Yes, calling from Las Vegas.
Yes, okay.
I'm interested with your soul situation.
I have an operation coming up, which I ought to find interesting.
I've never had an operation.
However, I have had a couple of Uh, experiences in my younger days with, uh, entities, if you will.
What kind of entities?
Well, I actually was at a person's house.
I've done some studying, you might say, from people.
And I was at a person's house who, uh, who was dying and they had people visit.
They had nurses there taking care of them.
And I saw someone dancing in the other room and I heard her say, Please make the people who are in that room not be in my living room because I'm waiting for him to die so he can join me.
So I don't know where it is that they're going or what's going on, but I actually have no fear of dying because of that particular instance.
I've had a couple of instances.
Well, your stories are not so unusual.
People who are around the dying, you know, in various organizations, Uh, that take care of people who are terminal, uh, you will hear a million stories like this, just a million stories like this.
Something apparently happens, unless you're hit by a Mack truck and you don't know where you're going, as you get close to death, something begins to happen.
An adjustment begins to take place and you start seeing things that other people are not seeing.
Uh, this is all, you know, no single bit of this, uh, of this proof that, uh, that we're beginning to compile, that I'm beginning to notice.
Really heavily is by itself going to prove the that there is an existence on the other side, but like court cases that are finally assembled on And convictions are made on circumstantial evidence.
You know an overwhelming amount of it.
I think there's beginning to be no question that We're beginning to get the case a case big enough to say hey folks.
It's real and There really is something after we go.
I think we're that close.
If we're not already there, and I think it's pretty exciting.
First time caller line, you're on the air.
Hi.
Hi, Art.
Yes, sir.
This is Kenneth Brand.
I can hardly hear you, sir.
You're on a cell phone, right?
Yes, I am.
Okay.
I'm in a truck.
I haul the U.S.
mail.
Oh, okay.
There's a little interruption in the cell phone.
You haul U.S.
mail?
Yes, I do.
Okay.
And I've been listening to you all the time.
You help me make it through the night.
One thing I've been wanting to touch on that they talk about in the Bible about a baby being born without a soul, and that being the Antichrist.
Is there a possibility, do you think, that if we clone a baby, a human being, then souls being godly things, It wouldn't have a soul.
That may be the starting of the Antichrist.
That, uh, the Antichrist would be, uh, born of our own hand.
Now, there is an interesting concept for you.
Most people think that a clone would have a soul.
Uh, not all, mind you, but most people think a clone would have a soul.
This is another subject that I am just, uh, I think we're finally scheduling the guest that I want.
for this subject.
But the man speculates that we will ultimately create a clone, and of course we know they're going ahead.
I've got stories.
Whether or not we pass law isn't going to make a damn bit of difference.
They're going ahead and cloning human beings, and very quickly too.
Now, wouldn't it be an ultimate irony if that man was right, and that the first human born without a soul turns out to be the Antichrist?
I'm not saying that's the case, or I have any reason to believe it is, but one can speculate about such things.
Especially if one doesn't care what he's saying.
That the first one born without a soul would be the Antichrist, and that it would happen somewhere in a lab.
I bet it'd be a cute baby too.
When it began to crawl it would walk just like a baby.
It'd feel like a regular baby.
It wouldn't, it would not be a regular baby.
That's what it would be.
This is Coast to Coast AM and if you'll stick around, coming up in a moment is Kevin Mitnick.
You fooled me with your kisses.
You cheated and you skimmed.
Heaven knows how you lied to me.
You're not the way you seem.
You look like an angel.
Walk like an angel.
Talk like an angel Talk like an angel
Some velvet morning when I'm straight I'm gonna open up your game
And maybe tell you about And how she gave me life.
And how she made it in.
There's something that more than you and I can say.
me like how she made it in the velvet morning when I was crazy. Flowers growing on a hill,
wild and pleasant, down for dears, learn from us very much, look at us but do not touch,
Pedro is my name.
To reach Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nigh, from West of the Rockies, Dial 1.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
1-800-618-8255, east of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
Good morning.
the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295. To reach out on the toll-free international line, call
your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903. This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on
the Premier Radio Networks.
It is. Good morning. He's a myth, he's a legend, he's Kevin Mitnick, and we've never spoken
with him, although I've had a million requests to have him on the air over the years.
I'm A myth, a legend, a good guy, a bad guy, a guy who's been in jail, a guy who... He's done a lot of stuff in his life.
I'll tell you about some of it in a moment.
Stay right there.
Mr. Kevin Mitnick graduated cum laude at Computer Systems and Programming from a technical college in California.
Went on to successfully complete a postgraduate project in designing enhanced security applications that ran on top of a computer's operating system.
With more than 15 years of experience in exploring computer security, Kevin Mitnick is a largely self-taught expert in exposing the vulnerabilities of complex operating systems and telecommunications devices.
His hobby as an adolescent consisted of studying methods, tactics, and strategies Used to circumvent computer security and to learn more about how computer systems and telecommunications systems work.
Now there's a childhood for you.
In building this body of knowledge, Kevin gained unauthorized access, it has been said, to computer systems at some of the largest corporations on the planet.
And penetrated some of the most resilient computer systems ever developed by man.
He's used both technical and non-technical means to obtain the source code to various operating systems and telecommunications devices to study their vulnerabilities and their inner workings and play with them.
He was invited to testify before the Senate Committee on Governmental Affairs to assist in their efforts to create effective legislation that would ensure the future security and reliability of information systems owned and operated by on behalf of the federal government.
In other words, they want to be sure they're safe and Kevin's got to tell them, right?
As the world's most famous hacker, Kevin has been the subject of countless news and magazine articles published throughout the world, has made guest appearances on all kinds of TV and radio programs, offering expert commentary on issues related to information security.
In addition to appearing on local network news programs, he's made appearances on...
60 Minutes, The Learning Channel, Tech TV's Screensavers.
Really?
Cord TV, Good Morning America, CNN's Burden of Proof, Street Sweep, Talkback Live, Canada AM, Marketplace, National Public Radio, and as a guest star on ABC's new spy drama, Alias.
Kevin also keynoted at numerous industry events, most recently at the Giga Information Group's
Infrastructures for E-Business Conference, the Software Developers Expo 2000 Conference,
Defcon Security Conference, and Spinnaker's Community Security Conferences.
He has written for, get this, Time Magazine, Newsweek, UK Guardian,
SecurityFocus.com, and 2600, The Hacker Quarterly.
Ha ha ha ha, The Hacker Quarterly.
He also authored a monthly column for, what is this, Critiquing computer magazines.
He hosted a radio show, by the way, on one of my affiliates, KFI AM 640 in Los Angeles, entitled The Dark Side of the Internet.
The Dark Side of the Internet.
Here he is, the myth, the legend, Kevin Mitnick.
Kevin, welcome.
Hey, thank you, Art.
It's an honor to be here.
Oh, it's great to have you.
I've heard so much about you over the years.
Your reputation certainly precedes you on this program.
How did you get such a reputation anyway?
I guess over the years, I've been involved in telephones, and I think we also have something in common.
I'm also an amateur radio operator.
Since I was a young boy, I was into CB's, ham radio, electronics.
in computers and telephones and I fell into kind of a hobby if you will of exploring these
types of systems and intimately is a good word and what I ended up doing is for you know in my
youth it was a way of combating boredom if you will.
How old are you now?
38.
I started in computer systems and telephones when I was 16 years old and I just developed a fascination for technology and I wanted to explore technology to the nth degree.
Were you a geek?
I don't know, I guess you can call it that.
I kind of dedicated my life and all my time into exploring and playing with electronics.
I always wanted to know how things worked.
That's geekdom, no question.
Yeah, I guess you could label me as such.
Now, is it true, is it not true, the New York Times once said, Did you break into NORAD?
They said you broke into NORAD, which is, of course, our Matthew Broderick did War Games, and a lot of people saw that, and so they kind of know what this is all about.
You didn't break into NORAD, did you?
No, that was essentially a false story.
It ended up on the front page of the New York Times back in July of 1994, and there was a front page piece in the The reporter, a technological reporter by the name of John Markoff reported that I broke into NORAD among other things that I didn't do and
I think the story came actually from the movie War Games, and that act was attributed to me, and it kind of elevated the danger of Kevin Mitnick, if you will.
Well, did you ever, let's rephrase it, did you ever try to break into NORAD?
No, not at all.
Did you ever consider breaking into NORAD?
No, and I don't think it's possible because any type of government network, especially any type of computer systems that would control nuclear weapons, You would think that they would not be connected to any type of public network, at least I hope not.
But no, I've never endeavored to break into any such systems.
It just seems like the myth of Kevin Mitnick and the reality of Kevin Mitnick has been so intertwined over the years, mostly at the hands of some irresponsible journalists, and it's created There's a lot of stories about me that, you know, simply aren't true.
But, you know, that's good and bad, right?
In other words, in a sense, it adds to the myth and the legend, which is probably, in a way, a good thing in some ways, and then, of course, in others, I suppose, not.
It's a bad thing, especially when you become a target of the federal government and, you know, they use this myth, if you will, to treat you in an inappropriate manner.
I recall A day in court when I was standing in front of a federal magistrate and a prosecutor asked the magistrate to put a special condition on my phone usage when I was held in custody and the reason for this restriction was the prosecutor claimed that I could merely whistle into a telephone
and launch nuclear missiles.
And of course, I kind of looked at the prosecutor and I looked at the judge and I said, the
judge would never consider this to be true.
And yet the judge found that, I think the quote was, when armed with a keyboard, I was
a danger to national security or the world.
And I ended up being held in a federal detention center for eight months in military confinement.
They didn't buy the part about the whistling.
Oh, well, that was the excuse they used among many other myths that never panned out.
But that was the one that was the shocker.
It seemed like I was there, but I was in a sense watching a fictional television show.
I just simply couldn't believe it.
You didn't laugh, did you?
I kind of like, oh, the judge isn't going to believe this.
The credibility is going to go out the door.
Apparently when, you know, a federal prosecutor or federal law enforcement speaks, apparently the judicial system, you know, believes them 100% for, you know, and I guess that's how it just, that's how it goes.
Well, I mean, if they believe that, your time would have, not only would they not have let you near a phone, you'd have had to have been gagged full time so you couldn't whistle, you know?
Yeah, it was strange because as soon as I agreed to some of the government's demands, It seemed that all of a sudden I didn't become this, you know, this danger to national security, if you will, and they, you know, let me out of solitary confinement after about eight months.
Solitary confinement?
We'll get to that in a moment.
How many times were you actually arrested?
I would say, I think about four to five.
I was arrested when I was... Really?
Yes.
I was arrested when I was, you know, I kind of made a career out of computer hacking, if you will.
Well, what was your first arrest?
When I was a juvenile back in, I believe it was 1981, I was 17 years old and I was arrested
for actually physically going into the telephone company and myself and a couple of friends
of mine, we went into the phone company to basically look, you know, we were interested
in looking around and looking at where all the different computer systems were and we
did a really stupid, stupid thing and we didn't have time to sit there and read the manuals
to study, you know, how to transact commands on the computer.
So what our plan was, is we were going to go to an all-night copy shop and copy some
of the manuals.
So we took them out of the building.
They let you get, how did you get them out?
Just carried them to the car.
And then, and then what, and then we were scared to go back because we were, you know,
we figured, oh, they might find out or the security guard will, you know, become wise
or for some reason.
And then we ended up dumping the manuals.
So in other words, you just picked up the manuals and boldly walked out with them in plain view?
I think the security guard even helped us carry them to the car.
Here I was 17 years old.
You know, here I was 17 years old, I didn't have any type of identity, and the company
was Pacific Bell, or Pacific Telephone at the time.
It doesn't exist anymore.
Well, that's something they would like to, it seems to me, if they did exist, they would want to address right away.
I mean, the security guards are not supposed to help you carry their manuals to the car.
That was my first brush with the law, and that was the only time where I really did anything in a physical sense, if you will.
So you threw them away?
Yeah, I got scared.
We were scared kids and we couldn't bring them back and we figured we didn't want to obviously get caught with them so we threw them away.
But because of my reputation and because the phone company kind of knew who I was because of my reputation.
It was called phone freaking at the time.
Oh yes.
And they so, I was like their, I was their number one suspect and also there was another
person that was involved in our group if you will that knew about this and I believe they
called up Pacific Bell Security and told them.
I've interviewed Captain Crunch, you know.
John Draper, yeah.
Yeah, John's friend and you know there is a sort of a little bit of truth to the whistle
thing as he proved.
There is a tone or there was a tone.
2600 hertz.
Which one could produce perhaps with a whistle that would, what would it do?
Well, actually, in the old days, what you would do is you'd whistle off a trunk, and then you'd use a signaling system called multi-frequency.
And then what you could essentially do is talk to the phone company's switch, if you will, and route calls anywhere in the world that you want to.
And it's a system that was really what they called in-band signaling.
So that kind of, in today's world, with electronic switching systems,
that technique doesn't work anymore.
Right, right.
But that's probably the kernel of truth that was used to get you whistling ICBMs into the air,
right?
Yeah, but I think it was a far stretch art, that whistling 2,600 hertz.
And you couldn't place a call, really.
No, except I have to take that back.
There was a show on the Discovery Channel, which I was part of, which there was this old phone freak
guy named Joe Ingressia.
And on the show, they actually showed him picking up a telephone, whistling pulses of 2,600
hertz into the phone, and calling the phone next to him.
Really?
And that demonstration was, I think, the best part of the documentary.
Because it was just simply amazing that you could whistle and this guy had perfect pitch.
He was blind and he could actually whistle Whistle calls place telephone calls by whistling into the telephone like the pinball wizard.
Yeah Okay Anyway, you got most of your trouble today.
I Today, right now, are you allowed to own a computer?
Well, I have the most stringent conditions of supervised release in which I can't possess or own or use a computer, a cell phone.
Not so much as a VIC-20?
Not a VIC-20, not a personal organizer.
Maybe not even a watch that has a computer built into it that would have extra functionality.
Cable television that has the ability to hook up to the internet and get this is any device that could act as a computer Or that can access a computer now.
I have these these I mean broad conditions where I can't really Possess devices of technology, but it's all subject to the to the discretion of the probation department so the probation department when they feel Um, that it's okay, they can allow me to possess or use any of those devices.
Like for example, I have a cellular phone now.
And I've had one for over a year.
They let you have a cell phone?
Uh, yeah.
And what's interesting is my case, my fascination for radios and computers really evolved around cellular technology and I really wanted to know How did these devices work?
I wanted to be able to pull them apart.
I wanted to look at the software, the firmware, which is computer instructions on a chip.
And rather than reverse engineering it to learn the inner workings, I hacked into these companies, if you will, and I accessed the source code so I can understand how everything worked.
And my whole case, in a sense, centered around cellular phone technology.
No kidding!
Yeah.
And so now they let you have a cell phone.
Maybe you shouldn't be explaining this right now.
Well, I mean... Maybe they'll reconsider.
They'll come in and take your cell phone away.
Well, it's... I don't think so, because if somebody, you know, for instance, a bank robber robs a bank, do you put a condition of release that they can't use money?
Or a forger cannot use a pen?
I mean, that's... It gets to be a little bit absurd, but... The real reason, you know, I did stuff that was wrong, and I deserve to be punished, but in my case, it's been my sincere belief that the punishment fit the crime, because in my exploration of computer systems, I learned some things that the government, I think, would rather that I didn't learn.
I think based on the knowledge that I obtained, They treated me in a very harsh fashion.
Well, they were scared of you.
Moreover, it was a really big problem.
Well, it is now, too.
But then it was a really big and new problem, and they needed to crush somebody as an example.
You know, the IRS crushes people as examples every now and then, and it works.
Yes, I think I coined the term.
I have won the scapegoat sweepstakes, if you will.
You know, I deserve to be punished for crossing the line and breaking the law, but I was really punished as if I committed some sort of espionage against the country or industrial espionage.
How long were you in jail?
And I didn't.
How long were you in jail?
Five years?
Five years.
The government never alleged that I intended to profit, that I intentionally tried to cause
harm by crashing computer systems or erasing data.
And that's not to say that what I did do was okay, but I was treated as, you know, there's
been a lot of other malicious type hacking.
Yeah, but they claimed you did $80 million in damage.
$80 million?
No, it was $300 million.
$300 million?
$300 million of damage.
And how they got to that number is, remember that I...
Looked at the source code to these different, you know, cellular phone technologies, and I was interested in looking at the source code to different operating systems to figure out how they worked.
Kevin, Kevin, we're at a break point.
Sure.
Hold on, we're at the bottom of the hour.
$300 million!
Ooh, that's a lot of money.
I don't think he agrees with the figure, though.
We'll find out when we get back from the high desert.
I'm Art Bell.
Well this is Coast to Coast AF.
Vig in the ground.
The one when there are flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing.
To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing.
To have all these things in our memories.
And they use them to cause...
...HORROR!
Ride, ride as you soar Take this place, on this ship
Just for me Wanna take a ride?
Well, call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
First-time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
to the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
And to reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
It is, and my guess is Kevin Mitnick.
Somebody so dangerous that he can go, and it's the night Chicago died.
We'll get back to Kevin in a moment.
Once again, Kevin Mitnick, $300 million.
$300 million.
People have been killed for a lot less than that, Kevin.
Yeah, and I'm looking at my wallet now.
I'm trying to see if I can pay it off, you know, as restitution.
No, just, anyway, where the $300 million figure came to play is because, you know, I was kind of the government's example.
You know, the Uber hacker.
The figure was The amount of money that these companies that I looked at their source code, that they spent on research and development to develop the product, and even though I never intended nor did I ever use or disclose any of the information I looked at, it was the government's theory was that
If you copy or you access the information, you are essentially stealing that information.
It's the value of the property.
So how do you determine the value?
Yeah, but don't you have to prove damages to some degree?
In other words, yes, maybe you have the information, but unless you had used it or given it to a competitor or something like that, then where are the damages?
Exactly.
That was my defense team's position.
And the government's position was, well, we just add up the value of the property and it took some microsystems.
They put $80 billion into developing Solaris and Motorola put $200 billion into developing the
MicroTAC ultralight.
So what they just simply did was add up those figures.
But that's not uncommon in hacker cases.
I don't know if you're familiar with the Craig Neidorf case.
This was, I think, a kid at the time.
He was involved with a group called the Atlanta Three.
And what they did is they got access to a Southwest Bell computer that essentially had no password.
They just found the dial-in number and they dialed up and they were logged in with no password.
And what they found on there was a document describing the E911 system.
And I guess some technical jargon and maybe how the system was put together.
I'm not really familiar with the information in detail.
And that article Or that, I'm sorry, that document found its way into an online computer enthusiast magazine or hacker magazine, if you will, called Frack.
E-H-R-A-C-K.
And the government or the, you know, Southwestern Bell was very unhappy that that information ended up in the public domain.
So they freaked out.
Certainly.
And of course, the government and the phone company's position is, oh, with this information, A malicious person could take down the emergency 911 system, which was the furthest thing from the truth.
It was kind of the same thing about launching nuclear missiles by whistling into a telephone.
But in any event, the government alleged that this group caused thousands and thousands of dollars in damage at the cost of the computer.
The mini-computer that an employee wrote the document on, the full cost of that computer, the full cost of the staff that, you know, operates the computer, it came out to something like $100,000 of damages that the government was claiming.
And what ended up happening is their whole case fell apart when the defense attorney was able to find that anyone, anyone in the public could or simply order that document by calling an 800 number out of some bell journal and the cost was thirteen dollars
do you understand why our government does what they do in coming after people
like you and the man you just mentioned do you understand why?
yes i do do you think it's justified?
or do you see any other way that they could effectively say look we're going to enforce this law and this guy's
going down well i i really think in my opinion i think you when
i think you really have to look at too what the person's intent was and what damages that are
really caused rather than really go on the fear of
of because in my case I really felt that I was kind of punished for my potential rather than the actual deeds that I have done.
I've been considering your potential.
I mean, if you began this at 16, you're 38 now.
Boy, you're just barely getting to your prime.
I mean, if you were still loose and doing what you wanted to do, consider what you would be doing by now.
Yeah, but what I'm doing these days, I'm taking my background, my knowledge and experience
and I'm using it to help people protect themselves against the people that want to intrude on
their computer systems.
And it's really the same challenge.
So what I'm doing in today's world is I'm taking a negative and making it into a positive.
Well, look, I'll tell you something.
A lot of criminals could be cops and a lot of cops could be criminals.
It's a really thin blue line.
Indeed.
It just depends on which way you go.
And, you know, some cops have sort of violent tendencies.
That's why they're in the work they're in, because they like the adrenaline rush.
They like the chase.
They like all of it.
And that's not all that different, in some ways, than the criminal mind.
I mean, there is obviously a difference, but it's just which path you went down.
You went down the other one.
You spent five years in prison, and... Well, actually, I spent four and a half years as a pretrial detainee.
Okay, well, that's what I want to ask about this ridiculous solitary confinement.
They had you in solitary confinement.
Now, for your crime, That wouldn't, on the face of it, seem justified.
But why were you in solitary?
Well, again, the government prosecutors convinced the judge that I was such a danger, even if I was in custody, that to really control me, that they would have to, you know, put me in solitary confinement.
And I think a lot of it had to do, you know, about, you know, the, you know, stuff that I learned, you know, stuff that I learned about, you know, our government, stuff that I, you know, stuff that I, You know, it's kind of difficult for me because I'm not really at liberty to talk about certain things because, you know, to be honest with you, I'm kind of, you know, fearful that if I were to disclose certain things, you know, you know, jail might be a pleasant experience compared to, you know, what could happen.
Really?
Yes.
You know stuff that serious?
Yes, stuff that I've come across that I think That they would rather remain private.
Then let me ask it this way.
Let me try asking it this way.
Do you know things that if were made public, the public would be frightened of or would not approve of?
You know, things that our government is pursuing, things they're pursuing and doing.
Let's just say there's a dark side out there.
There is truly a dark side out there.
Not particularly our elected government, but there's, I don't know, like in the fictional spy drama alias, you have the CIA and you have SD6, and SD6 is like the evil government faction that really works and does underhanded stuff that the public doesn't know about.
I guess that would be the closest analogy without getting into too much detail that might get me in some trouble.
And it's kind of risky for me to even talk about such things, especially since I'm still really under the government's control.
I'm on federal supervised release.
It doesn't take anything but a phone call to... Do they make you, like, wear a little bracelet around your ankle or something?
No, no.
That's what they call home supervision.
I'm basically... It's kind of very similar to probation.
Okay, so you hadn't been released with these special conditions not allowing you near, clearly, anything electronic.
How long would you then have remained incarcerated?
Oh, I did my full time.
In the federal system, they have a thing called good time, but you could earn up to 54 days a year maximum, unless you cooperate with the government and become an informant.
Then why aren't you totally free?
Why do you have conditions?
Because that's how it is.
a federal statute gives the federal judge power to impose terms and conditions of supervised
release even after you did all your time. The system that everyone is really familiar
with which is called parole, which they don't have in the federal system, is where you're
sentenced to say five years. You do three and you get out and you do two under supervision.
In the federal system, you get sentenced to five years, you do four and a half years and
you still get three extra years of supervision.
Interestingly, if you violate a term or condition of supervised release even after you did all your time, the
judge could actually have the power to impose a new prison sentence and then when you get
out, give you another term of supervised release.
Wow.
It's a very interesting system that the public is probably not aware of.
I certainly wasn't.
All right.
You were a hacker.
A lot of people argue about what a hacker is.
What is the accurate definition from you of what a hacker is?
Well, to me, a hacker is not really a person.
It's really a skill set.
It's a way of thinking, like out-of-the-box thinking.
The term originally was coined back in the 60s era with MIT, people that were computer
enthusiasts.
Back then, computers were much more expensive.
You didn't have as much memory and all the technical innovations we have today.
Computer programs, one of the things a hacker would do is try to write a program that would
be more efficient than another or do things that the hardware wasn't intended to do.
I guess a good analogy would be if you like tinkering with cars and you're a car enthusiast
and you're able to rebuild the engine or get more performance out of that engine by doing
something that wasn't meant to be done, that's what I call hacking.
That's my definition and I think it's an accepted definition by others.
And then I also include in hacking is thinking and getting around obstacles, you know, circumventing
computer security measures, not to cause harm or to profit, but it's kind of like, you know,
a lot of hackers that I know are also...
Kevin?
Yes?
For fun?
Yes.
Yeah, for fun.
For the feeling of accomplishment and fun and beating them, right?
Hacking was fun.
I mean, that was the reason, you know, that I was involved, and it was purely for the
fun and for the thrill and the intellectual challenge, not...
Not for any malicious type purposes.
And it's kind of like, like I was going to mention a second ago, is hacking is kind of like a sense of lock picking.
A lot of hackers that I know are also interested in being proficient at picking locks, not to break into people's homes, but just to, hey, it's something you're really not supposed to be doing.
It's, you know, I want, you know, I'd like to learn how it's done, how a lock works, how to take it apart, how to defeat it.
Just, just because you want to know, just because it's there.
the problem today. We have the internet going strongly today and when somebody like yourself
discovers something, it is then quickly of course published on the internet somewhere
and then a million people who are not really skilled hackers but script kiddies just grab
on to what you have written and posted and now you have a gazillion people out there
doing serious damage. Well, we're going to get into the debate.
This is what they call the full disclosure debate.
In other words, when there's vulnerability researchers, people that either get paid or they have a hobby of figuring out certain security vulnerabilities within operating systems or applications.
What has been done in the past is these vulnerability researchers were reported to, like there was
one organization that is well known called CERT, Computer Emergency Response Team that's
run by, it's run out of the Carnegie Mellon University.
What CERT would normally do is be the liaison between the vulnerability discoverer and the
company whose product has the security flaw.
What ended up happening is the software manufacturers would either bury their head in the sand and
not fix the problem or take forever to fix the problem or just say, oh, it's theoretical.
It really doesn't exist.
What ended up happening is all these computer systems out there would be vulnerable except
to the people that knew how to exploit the vulnerabilities.
What ended up happening is there became a full disclosure movement that when a vulnerability
is discovered, it's immediately posted to a mailing list such as BugTrack, which is
it's immediately posted to a mailing list such as BugTrack, which is available on securityfocus.com.
available on securityfocus.com.
And what it does is it kind of forces the manufacturer to, the software manufacturer, like one of the biggest ones
What it does is it kind of forces the manufacturer to, the software manufacturer, like one of
the biggest ones is Microsoft, of course, to fix the security problem.
is Microsoft, of course, to fix the security problem.
And because if you try to get, you know, information just always has a way of becoming free.
Because if you try to get information just away from the that when a vulnerability is discovered,
But again, between those times, a lot of the hacker wannabes grab onto it and do a lot of damage.
It's a double-edged sword.
When you publish information, especially when it comes to security vulnerabilities, if that vulnerability... Well, the good thing is hopefully the people that are the security staff or the system administrators are exercising some watch over their systems.
Alright.
Being diligent.
With that said, they should be applying the security patches, you know, the patches which are the fixes to these security problems.
They should be... But these guys aren't going to the manufacturers and saying, hey guys, look, you've got a problem.
They're posting something.
Hey guys, guess what I found.
Look at this.
Try it.
that's what's really going on now. Well, I don't know about that. I think what they do, I think what
the majority does is they send it to the manufacturer and give them a week and if
there's not a fix out, they'll post the vulnerability in hopes that either the poster
will post a workaround or it will be released to the world, if you will, so a workaround could be
released into the manufacturer.
Either way, the manufacturer gets busy.
That's pretty much the whole intention behind Folded Disclosures, really, to get these people off their butts to fix the security problems.
Alright, when you were in jail, let me quote from msnbc.com, quote, scores of websites have been altered By sympathetic attackers to include calls for his, your freedom, notably the New York Times website, UNICEF and Yahoo homepages.
So, you had an army of people out there sympathetic to your plight and they were plundering in your name.
Did you know that was going on when you were in prison?
Well, I knew about it when my attorney advised me or I read it in a newspaper or a magazine.
And I know that there was a, you know, I have and I had, you know, a lot of supporters, you know, kind of a grassroots movement.
An army.
No, I wouldn't call it an army of malicious hackers.
There, there was a few bad apples out there that decided that they would go ahead and deface a website in my name, which I, you know, never condoned or appreciated it, you know, because it kind of, it kind of gave, you know, hacking, well, hackers more of a you know, a malicious tone, like, oh, all these, all
hackers do bad things with computers. They, they destroy stuff, they deface websites, and that really,
and when these individuals did this, of course, it, you know, gave the media the fuel they
needed to, you know, take that position, but I was really in no control, you know.
I was in federal custody again for years even before trial, so I really had no control of what other people did, but I do recall asking my attorney to put out some notice asking these people to stop doing such a thing.
Stop doing this in my name.
Stop trying to help me into more years in here.
Right, exactly.
Again, unfortunately, I had no control of what these other people did on my behalf.
It wasn't really on my behalf.
It really actually harmed my case rather than helping.
Of course.
Some of these larger corporations that you did break into, the computers you got into, how hard was it really?
Well, yes.
Some were harder than others.
I guess what I can say is I was good at what I did and I think there was only one system that I tried to get into that I was unable to get into and that was because it was actually a personal computer sitting at this gentleman's house in England.
There was, I believe, a modem was attached, but not for any incoming calls.
And this was before the, you know, the internet.
This was back in the early 1990s.
Right.
Other than that, I was always successful at doing it.
And I was just good.
You know, after, you know, you have years of practice doing something, you just become good at it.
And I can't say it was all, it was very easy.
It was very hard.
There's got to be a special talent involved.
I mean, there's got to be, you didn't get to where you were just by being the average hacker.
I'm really good at thinking my way around obstacles.
Whenever I put my mind to doing something, I do a stellar job at it.
I was kind of a stellar hacker, if you will.
What talent is that?
a stellar hacker if you will.
And what talent is that?
It's got to be more, there's a lot of people out there who are good at solving problems,
but not these kinds of problems, not security systems, not making their way around tight
security systems.
That's a special talent.
I guess it's kind of in a sense, you bring it down to the physical world of being a good
safe cracker, but the thing is when you're looking at information security, I'm not sure
I guess I kind of looked at the big picture, if you will.
You know, I wouldn't just look at the system.
I would look at, well, information is fluid.
Kevin, we're at the top of the hour.
We've got a break.
All right.
Hold it right there.
We'll be right back.
I'm Art Geller.
All of time's on the counter.
If I'm down and down.
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Baby, take my hand, don't feel the same.
Love to the wind, the sun, the rain.
Need I say, oh, come on baby, don't feel the same.
Baby, take my hand, don't feel the same.
Love to the wind, the sun, the rain.
Need I say, oh, come on baby, don't feel the same.
Baby, take my hand, don't feel the same.
Love to the wind, the sun, the rain.
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Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
to the Rockies 1-800-825-5033.
First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
And to call out on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
Or, if you've got the talent, just whistle us up.
Once again, Kevin Mitnick.
He's the world's most famous hacker.
Is that a title you, uh...
You enjoy?
Well, I never endeavored to have that title.
In fact, my goal was to maintain a low profile.
But I remember when we were talking earlier about knowing a little bit too much about certain types of things.
And I could give you an example.
Oh, right ahead.
An example of something that we stumbled across years ago.
This was a system called SAS.
It stood for Switched Access Services.
test system that was put in, that the phone company used for testing lines and such.
What the system would allow you to do is, from a remote location, simply by knowing
a telephone number and having something like a laptop computer, you could basically pop
in on anybody's telephone conversation without their knowledge.
You can monitor anyone, and anyone that had service with this particular phone company.
Wait a minute now.
It seems to me that in order to do such a thing, even for law enforcement, even for the feds, you've got to have reasonable suspicion, go to a judge, and get a line tap authorization, right?
Art, no.
This system, anyone could have accessed, but just by knowing how to do it.
No court order needed.
In fact, one of the informants that was working against, you know, that was helping the FBI collect evidence against me during their investigation, he was in trouble himself.
When they executed a search warrant, they seized the manuals, which he needed to access
the system to essentially conduct intercepts or wiretaps from a remote location.
What the FBI ended up doing was actually giving him the manuals back when he was working for
their interests.
This informant was actually using SAS to monitor people and collect the information to pass
to the FBI.
And the FBI knew that?
Well, I guess, what do they call it?
Plausible deniability?
Of course they knew about it, but they don't know how the informant is getting the information.
It's kind of what they call turning a blind eye.
Imagine just by having access to a computer and having a phone line that you can dial up into the voice section.
You have to have two phone lines.
One is to actually dial into the computer system itself, and one is to actually monitor the conversations.
You have to be able to dial into the voice path, if you will.
And from anywhere in the world, an outsider could monitor anyone, and the target would not have a clue.
Alright, alright.
Question.
Was this a flaw in the system that allowed this, or was it an intentional backdoor?
It was an intentional backdoor, but the backdoor wasn't secured.
Well, yes, but even having such a backdoor, secured or unsecured, it would seem to me would be
a violation of human rights, constitutional rights, all kinds of things.
Well, it was the backdoor for the phone company to test their own circuits.
So it appeared to be legitimate, but what bothers me about this is here you had a government
informant and the federal law enforcement knew about this particular system, yet they still
allowed this informant who was working for their interests to use the system.
That's what disturbs me.
Well, that eliminates that pesky need for court orders.
Yeah, it is a problem, you know, because it is, you have to demonstrate probable cause.
You have to, I think, for Title III intercepts at the time, you had to demonstrate there was no other investigative techniques that would, that law, where law enforcement could obtain the information.
But, you know, it was really, you know, disturbing and the government was, you know, very unhappy, you know, when this system was discovered.
I'll bet they were.
Listen, Donald in Fort Worth, Texas asks the following, good question too, there's some guys that went before Congress who said directly to the congressional folks listening that they could bring, they had the ability, they could if they wanted to bring down the internet in 30 minutes.
Do you believe That could be done.
I know the people that claim that there was a group called At Stake.
I think it would be difficult because what the internet has been designed to do is if
a portion of the internet is made unavailable, how it communicates through the internet protocol,
what it does is it routes the packet or routes the information through another means, through
another path, if you will.
When I was thinking about what they said, because I remember hearing that, it would
seem that they would have to somehow take over the core routers of the internet and
somehow saturate it with traffic to interfere.
But I found it surprising that they would claim they can simply take down the whole
internet in 30 minutes.
So if, though, you had a sort of an army, either technologically or numerically or both, and you could attack certain key points, you might be able to pull off a gigantic denial of service that would... Yeah, you can do what they call denial-of-service attacks, or what they call distributed denial-of-service attacks, where you have...
computer intruders you know compromise you know numerous systems and they put agents
on these particular systems that they can control from either with from an internet
relay chat or you know through some other means through you know another computer that they've
compromised they can you know basically act like master control if you will and and launch you know
I read my audience a rather obscure article the other day about something that sounds pretty frightening to me.
you know, to take down the internet as a whole, and I really think if it was possible, somebody
would have done it already.
Good point.
Good point.
I read my audience a rather obscure article the other day about something that is, uh,
sounds pretty frightening to me.
It's about a government project, uh, apparently called Magic Lantern.
And the way I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that this is a government-originated virus which, once it enters your computer, would be capable of relaying keystroke by keystroke.
Every key you hit would appear on a government computer if they wanted it to.
Is that real?
I believe so.
In fact, if you have a credit card and you have probably between $50 and $100, you can order these computer wiretaps, if you will, keystroke loggers, from the internet.
People install this on their spouse's computer or their girlfriend or boyfriend's computer, their employee's computer, maybe even their employer's computer.
I always thought to myself, someone with enough time and a credit card on the internet could simply install these programs, I think they're called Spectre and E-Blaster, and several of them out there, and go to the Kinko's copiers, you know how many people use the computers over there, and just install keystroke loggers on all their computers, go to the airports, In the internet kiosk and install keystroke monitors on their computers that just email everything to some dead drop somewhere on the internet.
So this technology is really what they call Trojan horse technology.
That's where a program that appears to be something useful like a game, a new spreadsheet program, some sort of utility if you're a ham, maybe something that reads Morse code.
And what an intruder will do is they'll Basically bind a malicious program to something that appears to be legitimate, and then they'll send it to the target, you know, through different means.
And then when the target runs that program or installs it... The other program runs, too.
Yeah, what it does is the other secret program... Runs.
No, I fully understand that there's a big press to get the terrorists and that there are extraordinary means being exercised right now.
But this magic lantern, I mean, it's a virus, so that means unknowingly it would plant itself in computers, private computers, all over the country and they could literally sit there and watch every single thing you type.
Um, yes.
Well, what it would do is it would email or somehow send the information either through what they call FTP, which is File Transfer Protocol, or it would email, like, you know, keystrokes, screenshots, or anything to, I guess, you know, to some dead drop.
Who knows if it would be at a, you know, federal location or where it would be.
And it's very simple technology, and the FBI is already, you know, they already have other tools.
They have Carnivore.
You know, you've heard of Echelon.
Uh, what they're doing is they're taking this, you know, you know, 10 to 15 year old hacker technology of, you know, developing a Trojan horse.
It's really not, you know, termed a virus.
Right.
And it's, and it's scary.
And what's really scary about this is if the anti-virus, uh, uh, uh, companies out there in like Norton, McAfee, you know, Symantec, they have publicly stated that if the FBI contacts them, They will not add that signature into their database.
Yeah, I know, but the opposite of that is the FBI said they have the authority to order them to not pursue that particular virus.
So what happens if you have somebody that is very computer literate that detects this Trojan and then simply modifies it and they wiretap The government, let's say.
And then they're monitoring the government using their own tools.
Well then, Kevin, like you, they go to jail.
Well, what happens if it's foreign adversaries?
This is a stretch of the Taliban.
I don't think they're technologically able.
I guess money can buy talent, depending on their resources.
The problem is there's a high potential for abuse.
This Trojan horse, if you will, could simply be discovered, modified slightly, and it could be used by common folk to, you know, install computer wiretaps on anyone.
So that you could turn it on them?
Exactly.
How long has it been since you've had the opportunity to be free with a modern computer?
Well, the last time that I, um, actually, uh, was interesting, uh, the, I, like I said earlier in the program, I was in custody for about four and a half years before, you know, going to trial.
And a lot had to do with, you know, uh, the problem with my attorney not being able to represent me because he didn't have a good understanding of, you know, the discovery, the, uh, evidence in the case.
So we were going back and forth for years because, um, The government didn't want to print out the information, and this information was apparently 11 gigabytes of data, which is huge.
It could fill up a library.
Because they just take everything.
It could be MP3 files, just part of the evidence.
They refused to print it.
They said, you know, when my attorney said, well listen, you know, what I'll do is we'll take a laptop into the Metropolitan Detention Center in Los Angeles and we'll go into the visiting room and let my client go, you know, let us go through the evidence and that way he can explain what it is because my attorney wasn't, you know, computer knowledgeable.
And the government said, you know, Your Honor, we let Mr. Mitnick have access to a computer in jail.
He'll engineer an escape and You know, and at least you're giving him the ability to hack into other computers from jail.
We can't do this.
And when my attorney advised the judge that there's no network, there's no modem, the government still claimed that I can still do such things.
And of course, the judge believed the government.
And so eventually, after years of going back and forth, I was finally able to get access to a laptop.
Well, it must have been a very difficult defense because you do have the right to face your accuser.
You're supposed to, in a court of law, when you've been charged with something, you're supposed to be able to directly face your accuser.
In this case, that would have to include the material that you were accused of stealing.
So, how did they press the case against you without... Well, technically, under the rules of discovery, you're an attorney.
You know, they just give you the evidence to your attorney and said, well, go for it.
And the problem is, is my attorney had no understanding of the evidence and could not, and who are, you know, and who is the best computer expert they can find to help my lawyer?
Well, my attorney thought that would have been me.
And a lot of computer experts in the industry shied away from the case because of the negative high profile of the case, because of, you know, false rumors and information being written about me and, you know, the mainstream media, which started from the New York Times.
Is what happened is a lot of, you know, people in industry didn't really want to get involved in the case, because they would, you know, essentially be working against, you know, the government's interests, if you will.
So you had a laptop.
I mean, I'm... Yeah, it was a laptop.
It had Windows 95 on it.
95, right.
Well, now here we are.
We've got two gigahertz plus machines, incredible computers, and you can't get near them?
Exactly.
I must be killing you.
Well, it makes it difficult because in today's society, I don't even think you can go to school without having a computer available to do your work on.
When I was hosting my talk radio show, I had to depend on a lot of other people to help
me print out the research because the show was basically about the internet.
So imagine doing a radio show on the internet but not being able to use a computer.
You have to chuckle.
I was persistent enough, and I think it went well.
I just had to read a lot of paper.
It killed a lot of trees.
But isn't it just killing you not to be able to participate?
I mean, you hear about these incredible things going on, and they are incredible right now, no question about it.
Oh, it's fantastic.
I mean, how technology is advancing.
Computer technology.
Machines are getting faster.
Software is becoming more innovative.
I'm excited.
I'm looking at it.
I have a year to go.
I'm sitting here watching a computer right now and getting questions from all over the country, as I do for American Arkansas.
Asks, Kevin, as a security expert, why not hire a mouse to watch your cheese?
Well, you're going to get people that have that viewpoint.
You know, why, you know, hire, you know, hire the hacker?
And what my point's always been is, you know, hackers have practical experience.
They, they, you know, they don't come from a university, a university with, you know, they don't, they don't have an MCSE, you know, these are, or a certification, they have, they know the weaknesses in the systems, they know how to get around it, they would be best able to help You know, industry, government, and even individuals protect themselves.
But then again, you have to look at what the liability is, you know.
And I think when you're looking at the liability, you have to look into the intent and what the person has done in the past.
Has this person wrote a virus and tried to attack the world?
Has this person... Have you?
No.
You have never written a virus?
No.
That's something I would consider destructive.
You never even wrote a virus and then didn't send it?
No.
You never wrote one for fun?
No.
And then just sort of hovered your finger above Enter?
The Enter key?
No.
No, no.
Never.
You know, again, you know, I think, you know, what I, how I, you know, how I divide the classes here is between malicious and mischievous.
If you wanted to write a virus, could you write a good one?
Yes, I believe I could.
I'd have to brush up a little bit on my programming skills since I haven't programmed in years, but I understand the concepts, and if I set out to do it, I could do it.
Would I do it?
No.
How much of your hacking was social engineering hacking versus, you know, hardcore sitting there trying to cramp out the password?
Well, a lot of it was a combination.
For those that don't know, social engineering is basically using deception and pretexting and what private investigators
call gagging to convince people or the human element that has access to physical or
electronic access to computers to give up information or to do something. Getting next to a
secretary and get the password whatever.
Right but it's really not that simple just simply calling up a secretary.
I mean, there's, it gets to be, you know, a real, it becomes like a real confidence game, but what, in my attack, it was largely a combination of both technical and social engineering, but in the social engineering, I was pretty much, you know, I'd use maybe, you know, 60 to 80 percent in the attacks that I've done, but also,
you'd have to use your technical skills to what they call elevate your privileges.
60 to 80% was social engineering?
Well, in a combination.
All right, all right, hold it right there.
We'll be right back, bottom of the hour.
I'm Art Bell.
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at 1-800-6-3-0 First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
To reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
The world's most infamous hacker.
That would be another way to phrase it.
Kevin Mitnick is here, and he's a pretty animated guy.
We'll see what else we can get as we continue.
Stay right where you are.
Once again, Kevin Bindig.
Kevin, this is Christmas time, just before Christmas, and everybody in the world tired of going to malls.
I'm one of them.
I hate it.
I can't stand shopping.
I'm not a born shopper.
I was born to tinker and play, not shop.
But, but, you've got to do it.
And a lot of people are ordering... You know, you know what?
I'm sitting here talking to myself.
Somewhere I lost Kevin.
I just looked down the lights off.
So I better hold my little speech, huh?
Let me see.
Where do I have the number?
Hey, I wonder if we were hacked.
Yeah, I've got it here.
All right, let me try and redial Kevin.
I wonder if somebody decided that our conversation was going in places where it shouldn't go.
That's interesting.
I just found out I was talking to myself.
And all of you, of course.
Kevin, are you there?
Yes, I am.
We got hacked off somehow.
Uh-oh.
Somebody's hacking the phone company switch in Pahrump.
I don't know what happened.
Anyway, maybe we touched on something they didn't.
Here was my little speech.
It's Christmas time.
It's almost Christmas, and people are sick of malls.
I wasn't born to...
To shop at all.
I was born to tinker and play, and that's what I do.
I don't shop.
I avoid it like plague.
And so everybody's doing their shopping, or a lot of people are, on the Internet.
You go to these websites to order something for somebody.
It's so easy.
It's so easy to shop on the Internet.
And you get this little lock symbol when you get into the portion where you're buying, actually buying something, and that indicates you're on a secure server.
And so you give out your credit card information and God knows what all your address, all your information.
And people are under the impression that that information is secure and safe once they see that little lock symbol.
True or false?
Well, it depends.
What that little lock symbol really indicates is when you're sending your financial information, such as your credit card number, to a website, while that information is being transmitted, it's encrypted, it's scrambled.
So somebody that's monitoring Any type of communications going between those two points will just see gibberish.
Now, the problem is, most of these websites out there, it really depends who the e-commerce site belongs to, is that they store this financial information in the clear.
So what happens is when computer intruders are able to break into these companies, like I think CD Universe was one, Egghead.
Um, what happens is they get access to the entire store.
So in other words, credit card numbers.
Yeah, they're not actually getting the information as you're transmitting it.
They're getting it where it's being stored.
Exactly.
Because a lot of these e-commerce sites do not securely encrypt the information when it sits on their side.
And that's what makes it vulnerable.
But really, you have to ask yourself, I mean, if somebody were to obtain Just your credit card number, and we're not talking about health-related information and such.
What is the harm?
Okay, somebody might defraud the credit card company, but at the end of the day, you may be responsible for up to $50.
But the same thing holds true when you're going to a brick-and-mortar store.
You go into May Company or you go into The Gap, for example, and you use your credit
card there.
Yeah, so there's no real difference and they store the information in the same way, which
may or may not be as protected.
Exactly.
You can walk into a brick and mortar store, use your credit card, and then some intruder
hacks into that company's internal network from the internet, let's say.
Gotcha.
They still can get your credit card number even though you never shopped online.
So really, it wouldn't matter whether you walked into a store and used the credit card
or did it over the internet?
Well, it really depends.
It really depends how each of these companies set up their computer network, but it's true.
A lot of the brick and mortars company have links to the internet from their internal
network, and that is accessible sometimes through the internet.
So the same problem takes place.
The problem, I think, really comes to play is when people, when their debit cards are
compromised because then they simply, your account could be drained of its money and
you could have outstanding checks that haven't been cashed yet, and it could really cause
you a headache.
And I think the federal rules with respect to credit cards or debit cards are a little
bit different, so it might be more difficult to recover your funds.
How much of that kind of theft is going on now?
I think a lot of it.
I think there was, from what I read, there was a group of Russian hackers out of the
that were compromising a lot of e-commerce sites that had problems with Microsoft's internet
information server and were able to literally steal thousands upon thousands of credit cards.
They were obviously going to sell these credit cards to some brokers and eventually they
would have been abused.
I guess you really need to look at your credit card statement when you get it in the mail
to make sure there's no unauthorized charges.
And you know a lot of people don't.
Yeah, in fact I was with a guy in custody at the MDC since I think I was the longest inmate there as a pretrial detainee.
And this guy was arrested for committing some sort of fraud where thousands upon thousands of people were affected and they would simply have a charge on their credit card for like $19.95.
But it ended up being fraudulently billed to thousands of people's credit cards and the guy literally made hundreds of thousands of dollars.
I don't really know the details of the case but it was because most people don't really pay attention.
It's really time to pay attention.
It's the truth.
It's the truth.
You get your bill and you sort of glance over it and something 1995 you might not even notice.
You just sign it.
You pay the bill.
Exactly.
That's true.
All right.
Eric near Boston wants to ask a question you might not be able to answer.
Art, please ask Kevin what resources he would suggest for those interested in learning how to hack.
You might want to consider whether you want to answer that.
Well, it's not a negative thing to learn how to hack.
It depends what, you know, what, if you're going to do, you know, if you're labeling hacking as doing something illegal, if you're interested in, you know, computer security to, you know, protect, to protect yourself or to protect others, then you have to learn, you know, basically the, you know, the skill of hacking.
And, you know, there's several books out there that, There's, I believe it's Maximum Security, there's Hacking
Exposed, there's several different books out there.
There's also websites that are out there like Packet Storm Security is a big one.
There's Security Focus.
I mean, there's a lot of different resources out there.
A lot of people ask me that question, like, where do I start?
I want to learn how to do it.
It's not like you can explain the steps of tying a shoe, if you will.
It's really a learning process that takes time and experience.
And you almost have to be manic about it, don't you?
Well, you know, I had trouble getting up for work the next day because I spent so much time on the computer.
But if you want to mention one thing, remember when we were talking about Magic Lantern before we went to break?
Did you know that it would also give the law enforcement agency or the intelligence agency, think about this, they could use that program to turn on your webcam, like if you have a camera, and watch what's happening in your room.
And how about your microphone on your computer?
A lot of people have mics.
They go to these chat rooms, audio chat rooms.
Imagine just being able to turn on your mic to listen to what's happening in the room.
It's really creepy type stuff.
I've got three webcams looking at me right now, but they're not on.
Have you read the book 1984?
1984. I don't think they're on.
That is freaky.
Yeah, you're right. And a lot of people have microphones.
So plugged into sound cards, you're saying there'd be remote
ways to turn that on.
Exactly.
There's a Trojan.
There's a oh my God.
There's a Trojan horse programs that are available out there
that have that functionality where you could open the Target
CD drive, you know, have their windows disappear.
turn on their camera.
turn on their microphone.
You know?
And those capabilities are there.
When your supervised release time ends, are you going to go out and buy the biggest, baddest,
fastest computer you can find?
I'll probably pick one of the top of the line laptop computers that probably would be the
fastest on the market.
I'd, uh, probably, uh, um, go for something, uh, like a notebook computer, like a Sony Vaio, or an IBM ThinkPad, or a Toshiba laptop.
And no doubt a broadband connection.
Oh, no doubt!
When I was using a Modemart, the speed at the time, I mean, this is going to shock you a little bit, was 28.8.
I mean, I mean, I'm sitting here right now with microwave access to a T3 line.
I'm jealous.
So you're inviting me over?
I'm sitting here right now with microwave access to a t3 line.
I'm jealous.
So you're inviting me over?
I don't think I'm allowed to do that, am I?
I can watch you type.
You're probably...oh, sorry.
Are you allowed to watch somebody else on the computer?
Yeah, certainly.
I could stand behind anyone that's on the internet.
I can be right there and even say, hey, check out FreeKevin.com or check out Yahoo.com.
Really?
Yeah, as long as I'm not typing.
As long as your finger doesn't touch the keyboard.
Can't let the fingers do the walking, as they say.
You couldn't really tell somebody else I mean, you might be able to tell them to visit a website, but you couldn't instruct them in any ways of doing anything?
No, no.
I can't use... Obviously, there's a condition of supervised release that prevents me from using people as a proxy to do something on my behalf.
It was difficult because it really got close to the line there, especially when my producer
would, I would need them to look for certain information and of course I'd have to direct
that person, you know, I need this, I need that.
And that's kind of almost, but it's not to the point of where, hey type this key, type
that key.
You know, it was more of I need this particular information.
Go after it.
Somebody in Michigan just fast-blasted me on the computer.
They just put a black sock over their webcam.
Beware.
And it's important.
One thing that people can do is to check to see if there's a known Trojan horse on their computer.
There's a software called The Cleaner.
That you can find on the internet.
I think they give you a free 30-day trial.
Yes.
And it's a piece of software that's been highly regarded as being able to detect Trojans.
The problem with it is it uses the same technology to detect viruses and worms.
It's called signature-based.
So the AV company, the antivirus company, in their lab, they find what they call malware.
Malicious software, if you will.
And they develop a signature, and then they update their database.
So users are supposed to, on a frequent basis, update their definitions file.
And what it does is it will look for that particular pattern.
It will scan all the different executable files on your computer and your DLL files, looking for that particular pattern and identify it as a known worm or a known virus.
That's the same technology these Trojan horse scanners are using as well.
John in Denver wishes me to ask you the following.
How do you feel about John Markoff, is it?
Who wrote the newspaper article about you and something about a movie he's asking about that was somehow successfully blocked from even being distributed.
A movie about you?
Yeah, it was called Takedown.
It was a movie that was based on the book Takedown that John Markoff wrote.
With my respect to my feelings on John Markoff, I think he's largely responsible for creating the myth of Kevin Mitnick.
That's the gentleman that wrote the NORAD story, that I broke into NORAD, that I wiretapped the FBI, that I planted false news, a false news story about.
Well, what about this movie, Takedown, what happened?
Well, what ended up happening is, while I was in custody, they shot the film, Skeet Ulrich played me, and there was some other, I guess, unknown actors in the movie.
and they basically accepted the version or the book, takedown as their storyline.
But what ended up happening is the initial script that was released portrayed me as like
the Hannibal Lecter of computer hacking.
It was just completely out of, portrayed me as a person that I'm not,
depicted me doing things that I never did.
And there was an outcry from pretty much the hacking hacker community
and the same grassroots movement that was established to help get me out of custody, if you will.
They ticketed, Miramax was the company behind the feature film.
And what eventually happened is they started, you know, they did some script changes,
I guess based on the pressure.
Have you ever seen a copy?
Oh, I did.
In fact, what ended up happening is I settled, I was gonna go after Miramax for libel.
And what ended up happening is we settled a lawsuit and I can't really, you know,
I'm not at liberty to discuss the terms of the lawsuit.
No, that's fine, that's fine.
But what ended up happening at the end of the day, which was interesting is the movie producers
or the writers actually stole material from another book that was written about me
called The Fugitive Game.
And they used this material without that author's permission, and then they were sued a second time.
So, at the end of the day, the movie was never released in the United States.
It was just released over, I believe, not domestically, but overseas.
Do you have a copy of the movie?
I have one of the initial copies, not the final release, because that was under the terms of the agreement that I'd be able to view it.
I saw it and I was very upset with it because, again, it was based on hyperbole, sensationalism.
sure and it just the problem is when the public with art with any time a movie
about you I know regardless if it's true or not I know. That's the image that's going to be etched into the
mind of the public. I know.
So you're saying there's really no cannibal lecture within you, not of hacking?
No. No, I would actually characterize myself as a pretty nice guy.
The Mother Teresa of hacking. Something in between there.
Well, I would characterize myself as definitely a non-malicious fellow.
I was more mischievous.
I loved pulling pranks.
In fact, when I was a kid, we figured out how we can intercept directory assistance.
So when customers of the phone company would call directory assistance for Rhode Island, We would get some of the spillage, so when at a certain time we were able to intercept calls, so when they would come into us, we'd go, you know, what city, and the customer would go, Providence, and we'd say, okay, the name, and they'd give us the name, and we'd say, okay, that number's 555-3-1-2-7.
What?
555-315-27.
How do I dial a half?
Don't you have that new phone with a half on it?
And then I suppose I'd turn around and call the phone company and ask for them.
Oh, the phone company disabled that quite quickly, in fact, especially when their customers were queried, excuse me, sir, do you have a white page?
And they would say yes, and then they would say, well, why are you calling us?
Look it up!
Oh, my God!
You know, the phone company has very, just no sense of humor about this kind of thing at all.
That is very true.
And the phone company, well, at least the good old AT&T, boy, were they powerful.
I mean... Oh, before deregulation in 1984.
They were like a government within a government.
They were incredible.
It's kind of funny to say that AT&T or the phone network was kind of like the hacker playground before the internet.
How I consider hacking also is like, you think about Star Trek, going where no man has gone before, exploring space.
Well, in the hacker mindset, the network is the universe and you're exploring, not to do Dastardly D's, but because you're interested.
How do things work?
What's out there?
Well, it is like the universe.
It is a universe.
Now it's cyberspace.
But that is a universe within a universe.
A dimension.
Yeah, that's one way to think about it.
Hold it right there, Kevin.
We'll come back and take... You mind taking calls?
No!
Good.
Hold it right there.
Kevin Mitnick is my guest.
I'm Art Bell from the high desert.
This... Oh my.
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A universe within a universe.
That's an interesting way to think about the Internet.
And that's an accurate way to think about the Internet.
Kevin Mitnick.
One of the most infamous, or the most infamous hacker in all of history, or famous, depending on your point of view, and it really is point of view too.
Remember one man's terrorist and all that sort of thing?
It's another man's patriot.
Of course the government didn't look at it that way.
Anyway, we'll be right back.
Back now to Kevin Mitnick.
Kevin, welcome back.
One quickie from a fellow ham.
Now, I don't know whether this is myth or legend, but it is said among hams, Kevin, that early in your career, You were known to go a-freakin' with the auto-patch down in Glendale, the 147-12 repeater, back in, say, about 1981 or thereabouts.
You didn't do that, did you?
Well, I used the auto-patch.
I didn't freak the auto-patch.
I used to be a heavy auto-patch user on that repeater.
But that was years ago, my God!
I know.
Well, you know, I have people with long memories.
So, you didn't call Pakistan and stuff?
No.
Not at all.
Hey, but I do have to ask you a question when you're talking about telephones.
Yes.
Do you subscribe to the caller ID service?
I do indeed.
You do?
Well, did you know that, in fact, I'd like to give you a quick demo.
Did you know that usually when somebody calls you and you see their name and number display on your caller ID, you assume that that is the person calling you, don't you?
I do.
Would you be surprised to know that there's ways, there's secret ways that that system could be manipulated to display any name and number that the person would want?
No, I didn't know that.
No, I didn't.
Well, I'd have to give you a quick demonstration.
Are you interested?
Sure.
Hold on a minute.
Well, no.
Hold on one second.
Hold on.
Well, no, no, no.
Okay.
You, uh... I'll take a second.
One second.
Well, I don't have color ID on this line.
No, I know.
Hold on one second.
Okay.
I don't know if we should be doing this.
I'm not sure what we're doing.
Hold on one second, Art.
I'm holding.
from what a good is doing. Kevin?
...
Kevin?
Did you get it on your caller ID?
No, no, I just told you I don't have caller ID.
Oh, OK.
I'm sorry.
I called on a number that I thought you'd have caller ID on.
Do you have my private number?
Yes.
You do?
Yes.
How the hell did you get... Well, I don't want to know.
Oh, she got it.
She got it.
Alright.
Ask her to tell you what number was on her... I've got the number on here.
I'm looking at it right now.
Does it give the name?
It doesn't give a name, but the number ends in 65.
Right.
In fact, if you were in California, it would actually have displayed on your caller ID FBI US... Hold on a second.
Oh my God, she says it says USG, FBI.
Yes, and if you call that number, it's the FBI Los Angeles office.
And I can tell you it's not at their office.
How did you, how, oh my God.
So, the moral of the story is you should never believe that... Kevin, you're not supposed to be doing stuff like that.
No, this is perfectly legal.
It is?
Yes, it is.
I just don't know how to thank you for that.
has done it is perfectly 100% legal. I'll say certainly when I've demonstrated it to
you. But it really makes you think that the next time you receive a telephone call it
may or may not be the person whose number or name is on your display. It's pretty scary
stuff. I just don't know how to thank you for that. Now I won't sleep well. We were
considering it should have been the US FBI or it should have been the...
I have a question for Kevin.
I just want to say great show.
would have displayed problems.
USGFB, oh God.
I thought you'd get a kick out of it.
Oh yeah, it kicked me.
All right.
First time caller line, you're on the air with Kevin Mitnick.
Hi.
Hi, I have a question for Kevin.
Sure.
I just want to say great show.
Thank you.
Hi.
I was wondering if you can elaborate at all on if you think that the government gave you
a hard time in this case due more to the fact of what you found maybe about what the government
was doing as opposed to some of the amount of money that they say that you...
I think it was a mix.
I think the government fully well knew that the damages didn't really...
Get anywhere near, you know, the $300 million, or in my plea agreement I had agreed that the damages were between $5 and $10 million, but that was really, I just agreed to the number to settle the case.
That happens consistently.
But I also do believe that the government came down pretty hard on me because of the potential I had, and also because of some information that I'm not, you know, I'm not really at liberty to discuss, especially on a radio show.
I appreciate that.
Is there ever going to be a time after X number of years go by when you can talk about this information or is this the kind of stuff you've got to take to your grave if you want to stay out of jail?
Not really.
The jail would be nice to the potential here.
I am.
The bottom line is I'd actually be frightened even to talk about it or to reveal it because I don't know what would happen to me.
So it's best, I really think, is to really keep my mouth shut.
By the way, how was jail?
Oh, it was a lovely experience.
Club fed.
You were in a club fed?
No.
Again, I was in pretrial detention for about four and a half years.
And when you're in pretrial detention, you have your rights, you know, because you're not convicted of a crime.
Right.
At the same time, you have the least privileges.
So it was a very unpleasant experience that I wouldn't want my enemies to experience.
That bad?
That bad.
Again, it wasn't like you see on television, like of a state facility.
I didn't feel unsafe, like I was worried I was going to get assaulted or something along
those lines.
But again, it's definitely not a pleasant place.
Either way, when you go to a federal institution, I guess a good analogy would be, it's like
you're in the service.
You basically belong to the federal institution and you can't leave.
It's exactly like you're in the service, so to speak, with no liberty.
Did you form friendships?
Certainly.
Over years, I did form friendships, but I don't associate with any of the people that I formed friendships with while on the inside.
Not allowed to, huh?
You're not allowed to associate a standard condition of release, as you can't associate with anyone that's been convicted of a felony.
But the word associate, it's really...
difficult to define because again that there's cases where
convicted felons are working with convicted felons so are you calling that
association or are you calling it work you know
basically if they want you they can get you
what i learned from my case art is the federal government has
extreme powers uh... sure you know even in In my case, which I hate to keep harping on my case because I'm sure there's much more interesting stuff to talk about, but it really bothered me because the court system or the judicial system, based on fear and hyperbole, turned a blind eye to certain constitutional rights I felt that I had, and this was not just
My personal feelings were the feelings of my attorney.
For example, I was the only defendant in U.S.
history, according to my defense team, that was held without a bail hearing.
Um, normally when you're arrested for a commission of, uh, you're accused of a crime, you're entitled to have a hearing to determine whether there's a condition or a combination of conditions that will reasonably assure your presence or that you're not a danger to the community.
And so on what basis did you not get one?
Uh, the judge just basically said, I'm not giving him a hearing.
We took it all the way up to the U.S.
Supreme Court twice.
And the first time Sandra Day O'Connor denied the petition, and we petitioned John Paul Stevens, and he referred it to the full court.
But apparently I didn't get the vote for the court to hear it.
Because to get the Supreme Court to hear a case, it has to be pretty novel.
But to hold a man in pretrial detention for four and a half years and not have a bail hearing, I thought would be pretty novel.
But apparently the justices didn't believe that as well.
All right.
I guess that's what happens.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Kevin Mitnick.
Hi.
Hello.
Hello there.
Oh, this is Garf.
Garf.
Oh, Garf.
I did another show.
How long ago was it, Garf?
It must have been three, maybe four years ago.
Three or four years ago with some hackers.
And Garf was one of them and is very well known on the net.
Oh, hi, Garf.
Hi.
I remember I saw you, what was it, uh, two years ago at, what was it, Flea's House.
Oh!
Fourth of July, remember that?
I remember that, but I don't re- I can't put a face to the name, I apologize.
Ah, well, we'll have to talk sometime else about that.
That was loads of fun, there was, uh, alright, there, a couple years ago, there was just this gigantic block party of a Fourth of July party, and Pretty much anyone who was anyone who wasn't a felon, by the way, was there.
What I thought was interesting is an FBI agent actually attended the party, and he was, I guess he worked in counterintelligence, no, counterterrorism for the FBI's Los Angeles office, and he was actually at the party.
He was at the party?
Yes, and I was introduced to him, like, later on in the party.
It was kind of awkward, you know.
Garvin, it sounds like you're on an internet phone, are you?
No, I'm on my cell phone.
Cell phone, okay.
And, well... So what's your question, Gerf?
Um... Mainly just saying hi.
Oh.
Well, hi back.
Hi.
This gets close to association, so we'll cut it off.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Kevin Mitnick.
Hi.
Hello there.
Hello?
Yes, you're on the air.
Oh, I didn't mean... I usually hear that noise.
No, no noise.
You're just on the air, sir, going like that.
Where are you calling from?
I'm calling from, well, east.
I don't want to say where because, uh... Oh.
Somebody told me something and I see this person every day and just in case it's true, I don't want to... Well, we did get your number through caller ID, right?
Yeah, I heard.
You got my, uh, FBI office.
6-5, that's my... No, you know what?
I'm not even saying that because, jeez.
I don't know who's listening.
Somebody's listening.
It's just us.
You're right.
My question's about email, with Hotmail, all that stuff.
Somebody was telling me, I guess it's two questions.
First, is this true?
Second, is there a way to protect yourself from it?
What this guy told me was, let's say I sent an email message to you, Kevin at Hotmail.com, right?
Okay.
He said that for my message to get into your inbox, it actually has to knock at the door and ask for the password to get in.
Is that true?
I don't think so.
What it usually does, it will go to what they call, it will use a simple mail transfer protocol and I don't believe that protocol has to authenticate at all.
In fact, that's what makes it so easy to spoof email messages because you simply can connect to any, what they call SMTP port on a particular server that has that service and By typing the appropriate command, you could make it appear that that message appeared to come from anywhere in the world.
Okay, yes.
What he was saying is that with the right command, you could basically ask for that person's password.
I think that's a myth, and also to retrieve mail is another case.
That's where they're using the post office protocol, and that's where you have to authenticate yourself with a username and password.
So he's full of it then, basically.
I mean, or is there a way to do that?
Just not like he said.
Uh, there's always ways of obtaining people's passwords, especially for Yahoo and Hotmail.
A lot of people, from what I hear, um, maybe choose good passwords, but they choose, um, easy hints.
So, what it'll allow an attacker to do is change their password, like they'll choose a hint like their mother's maiden name, or their dog's name, or something that, some personal identifier that could be obtained through some diligent research.
Uh, but there's no, like, magic way to do it, though, like this guy was saying.
No.
Okay, that's cool.
At least not that I know of.
Yeah.
I don't use Hotmail or Yahoo.
One of the problems is that there's a lot of stuff, a lot of myth running around the internet.
There's a lot of truth, of course, running around as well, but half of it is pure garbage.
Fears and things that people say can be done.
It's just, it's paranoid garbage, right?
Yeah, and then there's the issue with cookies.
Cookies are little small text files that your browser places on your computer so it can kind of keep track of where you are on that website.
Some of these sites will deposit a cookie on your computer and when you go back to that website, if it sends that cookie, it will assume that you're already authenticated, that it already identified you.
What about laws?
if a decider is able to get that cookie from your computer, or steal your cookie if you will,
then they could masquerade as you.
But that all depends on the programming of the different websites that are out there.
Depends on the security design.
What about laws?
Now, newspapers and broadcasters are responsible for defamation and things said that would be legally a problem.
But on the Internet, man, you can be anybody.
You can say anything about anybody, and there is no apparent recourse.
That's not necessarily true, Art, because, uh, I know, uh, I have a friend and colleague that's an attorney, and he handles a lot of these cases where companies are, uh, are insulted or false information is Posted on like Yahoo message boards regarding the financial position of the company or false rumors and a lot of these companies subpoena Yahoo and track the internet service provider and subpoena the ISP and find out who the user is and then try to identify them if they're an employee or not.
If they're an employee they get canned.
If they're an employee, they have a lawsuit filed.
But it's new, a lot of it's new law.
It's just forming law, right, regarding the Internet?
Well, the law is usually behind when it comes to technology and unfortunately I'm not really familiar with the new, you know, state statutes regarding this type of tort or civil offense, if you will.
Well, the problem is, as you pointed out early on, there are not a lot of, now perhaps today
that's changing, but there were not a lot of attorneys familiar with the internet at
all and they would throw up their hands and they'd say, sorry, I don't see any of that.
The attorneys skilled in law, and that's where they've dedicated their experience and knowledge,
and what they usually do is they depend on expert witnesses.
They consult with experts on computer related matters.
In fact, there's this case going on in Las Vegas where this gentleman runs an escort
service if you will, and he's having problems with his competitors essentially diverting
his phone calls to themselves.
In other words, stealing his business by manipulating the phone service.
Sure.
And I'm consulting with him now to try to get to the bottom of it to identify how it's happening, how to stop it, and whether or not the company that provides the service is responsible for some sort of security flaw.
So you're doing a lot of work like that?
Yeah.
I was going to ask how you're supporting yourself now.
The FBI or the federal government does not stop you from doing this kind of work.
Well, actually, I have to get this.
I have a condition of release that says I can't act as an advisor or consultant to anyone that uses a computer.
What?
Yes.
Without getting permission from the government.
So essentially, I can't do any type of employment or engage in any type of Employment opportunity without permission of the government.
In fact, it really became an issue a year ago when I was being offered positions, writing articles, and doing a lot of public speaking on computer security issues.
And the government, the probation department, interpreted my condition as supervised release, meaning I can't speak about or write about technology, that it's prohibited.
Good Lord!
And what I ended up having to do was Well, that's always a possibility.
Hold on, hold on.
the court to challenge this because it was really a first amendment issue.
And you won?
The funny thing is that the judge never ruled one way or the other.
What ended up basically happening is she said she doesn't want to see me in her courtroom
again and to work it out.
You know, maybe you ought to just give up, throw up your hands and get a GS rating and
you know, go to work for the government.
Well, that's always a possibility.
Hold on, Kevin Mitnick is my guest from the high desert.
I'm Art Bell and this of course is Coast to Coast AM.
This.
I.
Sweet dreams are made of the years.
Who am I to disagree?
I travel the world and the seven seas.
Everybody's looking for something Some of them want to use you
Some of them want to get used by you Some of them want to
Some of them want to abuse you.
Some of them want to be abused.
Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nine from West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
1-800-825-5033. First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
To recharge on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
My guest is Kevin Mitnick, who is not Hannibal Lecter, and he'll be back in a moment.
Back down to Kevin Minnick.
Kevin, you know, I was only half-joking really at the bottom of the hour.
I said, why not throw up your hands, get a GS rating, and go to work for the government?
You said, well, maybe.
That's a maybe, huh?
Well, they haven't given me an offer yet, and plus you can actually make more money in the private sector.
Would you like an offer?
I mean, could you work for them after what you've been through?
I'd rather not work for the Department of Justice because I don't agree with some of the way they handle certain things, but any other parts of the government is fine by me.
Usually when they make somebody an example, because I'm really the hacker poster boy, if you will, they can't do it because they can't save face.
I don't expect it to happen, and if it did, I think it would be kept very, very quiet.
You never know, I could be working for them now, I just can't tell you.
You wouldn't be able to tell me a word about that, would you?
going to ask about that and that is absolutely true isn't it? I hadn't even thought about
that. You wouldn't be able to tell me a word about that would you? Probably not. But the
truth of the matter is I'm not. Well, well. What's that worth now, right? Alright, uh
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Kevin Mitnick.
Hi.
Yes, good morning, Kevin.
Good morning.
And good morning to you, Art.
Morning, sir.
Kevin, is it just a Sky-Fi movie premise, or do you think it possible a computer mainframe of some kind could achieve self-awareness?
You're talking about artificial intelligence?
Yes.
To the degree of self-awareness.
That might be a little more than just basic artificial intelligence.
To the point of self-awareness is what he's asking.
Do I think it's possible?
Yep.
That's the question.
I really never gave much thought to it.
I don't know how to answer that question.
Do I think it's possible in the future that technology will advance where it can be self-aware?
If I were to make a bet on it, I would bet yes, but I'm just making a guesstimate.
Yeah, I mean, if speed continues to increase the way it is... Yeah, Moore's Law.
Everything's doubling every 18 months.
You think they're going to hit a big wall, or there's going to be a big jump?
But does speed necessarily mean intelligence?
Well, it might.
It might.
Speed and storage.
Speed and storage.
Those two things.
Yeah, storage is important.
I believe they're getting up into terabytes now.
That's right.
And so at some point, I mean, we don't understand a whole lot about the human brain, but we understand it's a supercomputer in some ways.
And so at some point... I mean, heck, we cracked the genetic code.
Yeah, a lot sooner than we thought we were going to, as a matter of fact.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Kevin Mitnick, hi.
How you doing, Art?
Okay, sir, where are you?
Leo in Seattle.
Okay.
Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, God bless America.
Thank you.
Near Microsoft.
Yeah, right down, uh, it's out in, uh, Redmond.
Yeah, I used to live in Seattle for a short time, Leo.
Yeah, I'm in Ballard.
A little bit aways.
You're creeping me out, Kevin.
I am.
Yeah, you, I think you know way too much.
Well, too much for me, anyhow.
I can't comment on that.
There you go.
I'm curious if you have kids.
No.
I divorced and I never had children.
Do you know, because you know so much, are you planning on not having kids?
No, no.
I just gotta find the right lady.
Yeah.
Have a good night.
Thank you for calling.
Yeah, and if you did have children, what would you, how would you, Instruct them with regard to technology I think a big problem, you know, well, I guess here you're talking about you know with with hacking I what I think is important what parents need to teach their kids these days is ethics because When I first got involved in phone freaking computer hacking it was encouraged.
It was encouraged by parents It was encouraged by teachers.
In fact, I One of the first programs that I developed in high school was a program that acted as a login simulator.
So it tricked the unsuspecting user into entering their username and password, and it would capture it, and it would go ahead and log them into the computer so they wouldn't know any better.
And the teacher loved the program.
I got an A on it.
Well, I see how all this happened to you.
So it was encouraged.
It was OK.
And then what happened is society changed around me.
This type of behavior became immoral and illegal back in the days, the late 70s and early 80s.
I mean, think about Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak with the blue boxes.
They built the Apple Empire, starting with experimenting with the blue box.
By the way, the eternal question, would you be a Mac or an IBM type person?
Probably IBM.
Well, actually, to be honest with you, I'd go Unix-based, Linux, or something along those lines.
Go with Windows 2000 at this point.
However, I imagine in your present condition, with the conditions, you'd take either one.
I'd take CTMR.
Where's my Commodore 64?
Yeah, I hear you.
First time caller line, you're on the air with Kevin Mitnick.
Hello.
Oh, good evening, guys.
Hi, where are you, sir?
I'm here in Maui.
Maui, Hawaii.
All right.
I wish I was there.
Yeah, well, it's nighttime.
Kevin, I wanted to ask, you know, you've got such a great Well, frankly, you've got a great brand.
Kevin Mitnick.
Do you think when you're over the probation or whatever and you can actually get your hands on machines and start back into coding and things of that nature that you'll go into security, computer security?
Yeah, my career plans are actually to become more involved with information security.
At this present time, I'm doing public speaking, I do some consulting, but I'm a natural in that area.
Well, yes, you're a natural, but you've been away from it so long now.
Oh, but I've been keeping up.
How do you keep up without reading?
You have to have a lot of experience, that's what I mean.
A lot of reading, reading, and reading, and a lot of things in information security doesn't change.
applications, the OS's change, some of the vulnerabilities associated with the applications
and OS changes, but there's other vulnerabilities that never seem to change and that really
has to do with a book I'm writing on social engineering.
Yeah, well, you know, Kevin, there are others who would say, but a lot of things don't change,
including feathers.
In other words, once a hacker, always a hacker.
And you know what?
That sounds like something that would come from the prosecutor.
I know, I know.
That's what I say though.
A lot of people do say that sort of thing.
But imagine their fear of turning you loose on a, you know, by then probably a 3 gigahertz machine.
A million times more powerful than what you did before.
I mean, that's how they're going to think, right?
Of course they'll think recidivism and I understand that and they can go ahead and think like that or anyone can think like that but I know in my heart that I've grown out of this.
It was fun.
I did it for the thrill.
I did it for the challenge.
I did it for the intellectual curiosity.
Curiosity was a huge factor.
Now, I can take the same skills that I have and use it to help people protect themselves against security problems.
In today's world, which is a lot different, as you know, Art, from You know, back in the mid-80s or even early 80s, the world has changed with computer security.
It's a business enabler.
There was no internet back then.
It was the ARPANET.
I don't know if you've used the ARPANET back then, but it was totally different.
What would you change if you could never go back in your life and you could change anything?
What would you change?
Probably a lot of the decisions.
I've exercised extremely bad judgment in my past and I would I've changed a lot of the decisions I've made, and I'm sure I might be in a different place.
I might have taken another fork in the road, if you will, instead of being interviewed as the most famous hacker on your radio show.
I could be running a corporation like Microsoft.
And swimming in money and women and God knows what all.
Fast computers and fast women.
You're right.
It could have gone either way.
There's no question about it.
What do you think of Microsoft?
I think they have a lot of security issues that they really need to take a hard look at.
I know that for companies to be profitable, they need to rush to market.
Microsoft products are really heavy on interoperability and functionality.
I think they're looking more at You know, the security issues involving their products because I think what it really is is, you know, industry response.
For instance, the Gartner Group recently has come out and made a public statement, an analyst with Gartner, that no one should use Microsoft Internet Information Service or server until Microsoft does a complete rewrite of the code.
So when you have an organization such as Gartner making such a strong statement, Microsoft has to react. They have to build back their
customer confidence.
But don't forget security is all about a bounce. The more security you have, the less functionality you have.
I think operating system vendors could really help themselves and help their customers by building in some,
you know, like a firewall product into the OS that's turned on by default.
So, the unsuspecting user, you know, the person that goes into Best Buy or CompUSA and doesn't really know much about, you know, is just a novice, plugs in their computer, they're not instantly vulnerable.
Nowadays, you go ahead and plug in a computer and everything's turned off.
All the security's turned off and you have to know enough to turn it back on.
I think it should be the opposite.
I do agree with you.
And I'm sure that you're going to find employment in these areas.
But you've got to admire what Microsoft has done.
I mean, Microsoft a little while ago was in big, big trouble with the government.
They were going to split them up.
And a trust suit.
And a trust suit, yes.
But I've always thought, you know what, they're like being punished for being so successful.
You know, I thought about that, too, that people are jealous of Bill Gates.
And a lot of this has to do with they always have to take down the king of the mountain.
That's right.
That's exactly right.
I mean, they were on the wrong side of the federal government, not as wrong as you were, but wrong.
And they ran into a lot of the same stuff in a lot of ways.
Then you think about these companies like Oracle that do competitive intelligence and they actually hire PIs to go dig around in Microsoft's garbage cans to, you know, to be competitive.
First time callers, area code 775-727-1222.
Right.
Wildcard Line, you are on the air with Kevin Mintman.
Hi.
Hi, Kevin.
Hi.
Hi, this is Damien in Pomona.
Remember the 666 guy?
Do you remember me at all, Art?
Vaguely, sir.
Oh, anyway.
Hi, how are you doing?
Yeah, I had a question for you.
How long has it been since you've been online, Kev?
Oh, I would say... 1995.
Wow.
Wow.
So, do you think... Well, my question is, do you think you'd probably, you know, pick it up like bicycle riding again?
I mean, do you think you'd have a hard time trying to get back in the loop?
Yeah, that is a good question.
In other words, if you were turned loose, How long do you think it would take you to get up to speed?
Oh, not long at all.
I think the way applications have progressed, that it's a lot easier.
Back in my day, it was the command line.
It was Unix.
It was DOS.
It was Windows 311.
And everything has pretty much gotten easier to use.
And myself, to keep up with technology, and especially to do a radio show on the internet, I had to study I had to study the changes in these applications and technology, but I couldn't use a computer to that end.
You can believe that right now the people who prosecuted you and hunted for you are out there listening to this right now.
Is there anything you'd like to say to them?
Well, I've got to tell you a little story.
I was in Washington, D.C.
a couple of weeks ago.
I was invited to speak on a panel for the Business Software Alliance.
And on this panel it was CEO of Symantec, Senator Maria Cantwell.
It was people that are well respected in the industry.
So one of the press contacts invited me to the National Press Club because Richard Clark, who is the Presidential Advisor in Cyber Security, was going to do a talk there.
And he keynoted right before my panel, so I wanted an opportunity to say hello.
I'm sure the look on his face and the look on my face must have been a Kodak moment.
Lo and behold, Mr. Clark dropped out at the last minute.
And guess who substituted in for Mr. Clark?
Couldn't guess.
My prosecutor.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
So I'm sure the look on his face and the look on my face must have been a Kodak moment.
It must have been.
And it was kind of awkward for me, because I went up to him and my attitude was,
let's bygones be bygones.
They're done with the case.
The case is prosecuted.
Yes, I'm on supervised release, but we can put our swords down and just move on.
Do you sense the same attitude coming back?
I sense skepticism.
I extended my hand out to this particular person and they wouldn't even shake my hand, so that was kind of awkward.
That's a message.
Yeah, so that's a message.
We don't trust you and we don't like you.
But what can I do?
I could only try to, you know, be the best person that I can be.
That's what I'm saying.
So if you were able to talk to them, which you are right now, because they're listening to you, what would you say to them?
I think they're sleeping.
They have to get up in the morning.
Don't be so sure.
No, I'm serious here.
I mean, would you say, look, don't worry about me?
Well, I'd say basically, look, you know, my hacking careers in the past, I want to take my knowledge, my experience and my background and work in the information security environment to help people protect themselves against, you know, to help them manage their vulnerabilities because that's what security is all about.
I'm taking the posture that I'm not going to beat him, that I'm going to join him.
That's my attitude in today's world.
Exactly.
All right.
Uh, Used to the Rockies, you're on the air with Kevin Minnick.
Hi.
Hi, Art.
I haven't talked to you in a long time.
Glad to have you back.
Hi, Kevin.
How are you?
Hi, good.
Good morning.
My name is Joe from Boston.
I have a two-part question, Art.
Kevin, I'm a friend of Ingressi's.
Is there any way to write to you by tape?
Some of us would like to get help, because my other part is I, too, was involved, and you're correct.
We did not try to destroy it.
I'm being denied a phone for the rest of my life, and I think it's totally unfair what the Justice Department did to me and you.
I didn't have a good attorney.
And this is ridiculous.
You know, we all do things.
We're all entitled to a break.
I'd like to know, is there any way... You're not allowed to use a telephone?
I'm being denied a phone in my own home for the rest of my life.
I'm using someone else's phone under my name.
They won't allow me.
Verizon's blacklisting me forever.
That's amazing.
It sounds like you need to leave to Canada.
You must have been very bad.
How about a cell phone?
Yeah, I can use, but I still want to have my own phone, you know, under my name.
How can one get in touch?
What did you do?
I did whistling.
I did phone freaking like you did in the 80s.
Blue box.
I got to tell you something, Art.
It's stupid, isn't it, Kevin?
Back in my phone freaking days, back in the early 80s, the phone company was so perturbed, they actually Don't forget I was living with my mom.
You know, she was raising a young kid.
I was like 16 years old.
The phone company actually removed the service for our home for a year.
What?
Yes, we didn't have a telephone in our apartment for an entire year.
They could do that?
They did it.
There's a PUC regulation that allows them to do it and it took a whole year before they'd allow us to have the phone back.
So you know what I did?
What?
We were in apartment number 13.
So what I did was I went to the hardware store and made a department 12B, had the phone company
come out and install a service under 12B.
It took them about a month to figure it out.
And when they did that one went away too?
Oh yeah, it went away quite quickly.
I think they went away red-faced.
They weren't happy.
So I figured, you know, what are they going to do?
They're just going to take it away again, so what was the big deal?
Apparently, they didn't have a sense of humor.
I know.
I told you earlier, the phone company, of all people, they have no sense of humor about this sort of thing at all.
None whatsoever.
They're very... Well, it's like, at one time, I think I was more fearful of the phone police than I was of the police police.
And the phone police, those were serious people, if you wouldn't mess around with them.
Except the I.X.
Postal Inspectors.
That's right.
Hey, you're going to write a book, huh?
Yeah, it's good.
In fact, we just finalized the contract with the Wiley & Sons, and the book is going to be, it's tentatively titled The Art of Deception, Exploiting the Human Element.
And what the whole book's going to be about is, you know, what is social engineering?
How does it work?
A lot of stories.
And what the purpose of the book is, at the end of the book, we're going to have a template of security policies and procedures that companies could adopt.
You know, take what they need and leave the rest.
And that will help them minimize their vulnerability with their human element.
What's the title of it again?
The art of deception.
The art of deception.
Exploiting the human element.
It kind of reminds me of the art of war by Sun Tzu.
Listen, my friend, we're out of show.
We're out of time.
What an absolute pleasure it has been.
Thank you for having me on.
By the way, if you ever need a fill-in host, I'm here for you.
You're available.
I love listening to your show.
Thanks, Kevin.
Hey, take care.
Later.
Kevin Metnick.
Good night, everybody.
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