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Dec. 19, 2001 - Art Bell

02:47:37

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Kevin Mitnick - Computer Hacking

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57:06

kevin mitnick

01:16:17

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, in the next hour, we are going to have the world's most famous secret people have been asking me to come on for years.
		Kevin Mitchnick.
		Just gonna hold everything for next hour.
		I mean, it's gonna be incredible.
		Kevin Mitnick did some things you're just not gonna believe.
		Of course, he was.
		He was put in jail for these things, and even now I guess there are restrictions upon his...
		We'll find out in depth.
		That's a great thing about long-form talk radio.
		Instead of sort of getting the headline soundbite part of it, tonight we'll find out what Kevin Mitnick is all about.
		And that's something you just can't do in short form, anything out there.
		All right, in war news.
		At least two senior Taliban officials are among five prisoners being held now aboard a Navy ship off the coast of Pakistan.
unidentified		Hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One of the other three is the American who fought with the Taliban.
		One an Australian associated with the Taliban.
		One a Saudi Arabian official of a humanitarian organization accused of having terrorist ties.
		So they've got two senior Taliban officials on a ship off the coast.
unidentified		Hmm?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wonder what they're doing.
		You think they're asking them questions?
		Do you think perhaps somewhere down in the bowels of the ship, you can imagine sort of creaky pipes and chains hanging around and dripping?
		You know, no, of course we're not keeping them alive.
		As a matter of fact, I understand that we are treating them as prisoners of war, including Walker.
		However, are we above sending in guys in suits who will land in choppers on that ship who will privately ask them a lot of questions with prejudice?
		I think not.
		I think we're probably going to do that.
		We'll learn a lot.
		Al-Qaeda captives revolted on a bus en route to a jail Wednesday, killed their six Pakistani guards.
		Then seven of the prisoners died trying to get away.
		20 others remained on the run.
		There is a hectic search going on right now.
		Prisoners among 156 al-Qaeda members captured by Pakistani provincial officials since Sunday after the fighters slipped from Afghanistan into Pakistan.
		Zacharias Musouri, the first person indicted in the September 11 attacks, appeared today in the suburban Washington courthouse where he'll face trial, sat silently, not so much as a flinch as the charges were read by the U.S. magistrate there,
		33 years of age, charged with conspiring to commit acts of terrorism, aircraft piracy, destruction of aircraft, use of weapons of mass destruction, murder of U.S. employees, and destruction of U.S. property.
		I would imagine that would carry with it the federal death sentence.
		Looks like there's a siege going on in Argentina.
		Did you know about that?
		The president there declared a state of siege to deal with widespread rioting and looting sparked by a deepening economic crisis.
		So when times get tough, the tough loot.
		Anthrax.
		This is interesting.
		The anthrax investigation is focused on fewer than now a dozen laboratories that have worked with a deadly virus.
		Investigators working to identify the genetic fingerprints of the anthrax that, you know, each letter used.
		The goal is to match the anthrax used in the attacks with the anthrax at each lab site.
		Apparently, the anthrax that was used by researchers for decades is present in at least a dozen labs across the country, and they've virtually said we know it's a domestic source now.
		I've got a Washington Post article here that I'd like to read you in part, at least.
		As you know, since I interviewed Pam, that wonderful lady last week, that had, again, I say it's such a profound influence on me, that whole interview.
		It's just very profound.
		I have email which, you know, says it can't be true.
		It simply, absolutely can't be true.
		There's something wrong with the story.
		No, there isn't something wrong with the story.
		The lady had an aneurysm, which was, you know, a balloon ready to go in her head, and they drained all the blood from her body, lowered her body temperature to 50 some odd degrees.
		Her heart stopped.
		Her brain activity stopped, and they were monitoring that.
		This is at one of the more prestigious medical centers in the whole country.
		All of this is extremely well documented, and she was dead, D E A D dead, no brain activity for an hour.
		And of course, the whole night was in how she was able to detail what went on during that hour, and how could she do that, of course.
		How could she possibly Do that unless she was detached from her body in what some laughingly refer to as a soul.
		Well, look, these are, you know, this is not in question.
		I mean, these are facts, folks.
		Nevertheless, I get a lot of angry emails saying it's baloney.
		Oh, no, it's not.
		As I said, we will pursue her doctor and get her doctor on the air.
unidentified		Washington Post article.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A 44-year-old man who had collapsed in a meadow was brought to a hospital, unconscious.
		He had no pulse, no brain activity.
		Let me repeat, no brain activity.
		Doctors began artificial respiration, heart massage, and brought out the paddles.
		A nurse trying to feed a tube down the man's throat saw that he was wearing dentures.
		The nurse removed them, put them on a stand called a crash car.
		The patient was then moved into intensive care.
		Now, a week later, after the patient had recovered, bear in mind this is from the Washington Post, a week later after the patient had recovered, the nurse saw the man again.
		The man immediately recognized the nurse.
		Remember now, this was a moment when he had zero brain waves, nothing, dead.
unidentified		Right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the man immediately recognized the nurse as the person who had removed his dentures and also remembered other details of what had happened while he was in a deep coma.
		He said he had perceived the events from above his hospital bed and watched the doctor's efforts to save his life.
		Now, the account might be standard fair in a supermarket tabloid, but last week it was published in The Lancet.
		I remember I read that to you, a British medical journal.
		It is the latest in a long series now of efforts to either document or debunk the existence of near-death experiences, something that for the most part has remained in the realm of the paranormal.
		And it goes on and on.
		This is a long article with more of the same people who have died.
		And I'm talking about zero brain activity.
unidentified		No neural little neurons firing from one neuron to the other.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		None of that dead flat line.
		The brain is not functioning.
		Now, the only possible explanation, the only possible explanation for this is that there is something within all of us which is, or at least in 18% of the cases, this has been true.
		So in at least 18% of us, maybe only some of us have souls.
		I don't know how you interpret that figure, but in 18%, people who are clinically, truly dead, no heartbeat, in some cases, no blood, no brain activity, absolute zero, are describing in intimate, accurate detail what's going on while they're dead.
		It is one of the more interesting avenues that I imagine I could pursue, and I will pursue doggedly until I get some...
		I really already have some answers.
		Personal answers.
		And for a good part of my life, I've had, what's the right word?
		You know, I really don't want to say the wrong word.
		I've had reservations about the concept of a soul.
		I've had hopes and imaginings that certainly it seems as though all of this is, I don't know, created.
		You know, it's not just a big accident of thousands or millions of years of evolution, depending on who you believe.
		So, is there any bigger question in life than this one?
		And we're beginning to get fairly close to some answers.
		At least for me, and I'm a pretty tough nut when it comes to, believe it or not, I know a lot of you say, oh, yeah, right.
		You believe all this stuff.
		No, no, I don't.
		I'm just like you.
		I present things on the air.
		And some I believe and some I do not believe.
		What I do, however, is allow my guests to tell their story the best way they can.
		And they're certainly going to do that by not tearing them apart.
		So I don't tear them apart.
		And because I don't, a lot of people conclude I automatically agree with or believe whatever I'm told that's absolutely inaccurate.
		In fact, actually, I'm kind of tough not.
		But on this question of the soul surviving physical death, I'm beginning to become convinced.
		I tell you, I'm very close.
		So the Washington Post now is printing articles on this.
		They're getting interested too.
		And you know, they should.
		Keith should probably get this article up for you.
		I'm obviously going to be on a kick here for a while about this.
		I mean, how could you not be?
		How could you have heard the interview with Pam Reynolds that I did?
		I hope you heard it.
		If you didn't, somehow I'm going to get that repeated.
		Guarantee.
		Guarantee I'm going to get that repeated for you.
		And then one more little note here, and then we'll go to open lines until Kevin Mitnick.
		Hotspots.
		This is a very interesting article about hotspots in the Earth.
		The headline is, Wandering Hotspots.
		Wandering, mind you.
		Wandering hotspots worry geologists.
		This is by Betsy Mason.
		Hotspots where plumes of molten magma break through the Earth's crust appear to be wandering across the planet.
		Well, say what?
		Wandering across the planet?
		A discovery that undermines many of the accepted ideas about how the Earth's tectonic plates are moving.
		Oh my goodness, could we be wrong about how the Earth's tectonic plates move and build pressure against each other and so forth?
		Geologists thought that magnet plumes, such as the one that created the Hawaiian Islands, remain in place as the plates of the Earth's crust move over them.
		For years, they have used these hotspots, so-called, as a fixed frame of reference to gauge the motion of the Earth's plates relative to the Earth's core.
		The Hawaiian Islands and their underwater neighbors, the Emperor Seamounts, were used by geologists as a record of the path followed by the plate that makes up the floor of the Pacific.
		The islands formed, you see, as the plume of upwelling magma erupted onto the surface of the floor, creating volcanoes.
		But a new study by Robert Duncan of Oregon State University in Corvallis and his colleagues shows the Hawaiian hotspot has probably shifted.
		The researchers measured the direction in which the minerals in the volcanic rocks of the islands were magnetized.
		When the lava flows that formed the islands cooled and solidified, the minerals lined up with the Earth's magnetic field, providing a record of their location at the time.
		So in other words, the whole finding will challenge ideas about how the plates have shifted in the past.
		For example, a prominent bend in the Hawaiian Emperor, a seamount chain that occurred 43 million years ago was thought to have been caused when the Pacific plate suddenly changed direction.
		And now some geologists are simply throwing that whole idea overboard in favor of a moving hotspot.
		So many things that our scientists have thought are the case simply are not the case at all.
		And by the way, the article I just read you by Betsy Mason in part is in New Scientist.
		So even the most basic concepts that a lot of our scientists have had about the way things happen, they just may not be true.
	And that's why so many of the things that you hear on this program, even though you must separate it from some of the BS, which inevitably arise, are also true.
	And with time, turn out to be absolutely true.
	And people say, oh, my God, you guys had that on the air a year ago.
	You knew about that six months ago.
	And now it's big breaking news.
	Well, it shouldn't be a surprise.
	Because we're always sort of out here on the edge.
	And so inevitably, we stumble across things weeks, months, even years ahead of others.
	Basically, because we have no fear.
	I'm not having to worry about not being tenured as a talk show host, I suppose, or tenured in any other way.
	And so I have no risk.
	I have not published scientific papers, though I have written books.
	And so I don't have to worry about staking my career on anything, because frankly, my career is built around presenting this kind of information that's out on the edge.
	So very little risk for giving you guys what we consider to be the straight stuff at any given moment, may or may not be, but gee whiz, an awful lot of times lately.
	It certainly has turned out to be dead on the money.
	So the people who want to know what is going to happen listen to this program.
	Awesome of the Rockies.
	You are on the air.
	Hello.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Who's this?
unidentified		This is Pat in Portland, Oregon, KEX.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Pat.
unidentified		Now I'm going to tell you something that I'm very upset about.
		Uh-oh.
		I live in a low-income high-rise.
		I'm on the 11th floor.
		Okay.
		And I had two cats.
		I had Lady, who used to watch Animal Planet with me.
		And then I had Murdoch.
		Murdock was 22.
		Lady was 18.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Those are both pretty good age for cats.
unidentified		Yeah, but art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What happened?
unidentified		They sprayed the building with some kind of insecticide or some kind of pesticide or something.
unidentified		One lady died Saturday after Thanksgiving, and I had to have Murray put down because they were...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So how do you know it was the insecticide that did it?
unidentified		Because it smelled.
		It came in through the cracks, and I didn't.
		I had the windows open.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but you need more than that.
unidentified		Well, I have a dead body.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, cats do come down with things and pass it from one to the other.
		Listen, dear, hold on a moment.
		I'm at a breakpoint here.
		Just hold on the line there.
		You see, I understand that, Leigh.
		I mean, if suddenly my cats, and I've got four of them, thank you very much, were to die.
		And I thought it was, you know, something somebody had sprayed, I'd be after their asses big time.
		Big time.
		But I don't think we know it was that, exactly.
		Not from what she said.
		not yet.
unidentified		Well, I think it's time to get ready to realize just what I have found.
		I have the only pair of one I am.
		It's all clear to me now.
		Responsible, practical, and delicious.
		Show me a world where I could be so dependable.
		Oh, clinical.
		Oh, intellectual.
		Cynical.
		There are times when all the world is still.
		The questions run to the end.
		For such a simple mind.
		Won't you please, please tell me what to learn.
		I know it sounds absurd.
		Please tell me who I am.
		I said, what would you say?
		I'll be calling you a radical.
		A liberal.
		Oh, a magical.
		Criminal.
		Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255 East of the Rockies 1-800-825-5033 First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222 and the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295 to rechart on the toll-free international line call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Arpelle from the Kingdom of Thai.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It sure is.
		Good morning, everybody.
		We'll get back to Open Lines and this lady with her cats in a moment.
		And once again, here's that poor lady whose cats died.
		Mari, you're back on the air.
		You know, what you need, ma'am, is you need to have your vet do a toxicology report on your cats, probably an autopsy.
		You need to find out what killed your cats.
unidentified		I tried with the vet to have that done, and he just kind of poo-pooed it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, you can demand it.
unidentified		Well, I could.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You can demand it, ma'am.
unidentified		My ex-daughter-in-law.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not as a matter of law, you'll have to pay for it, but trust me, you can go to a veterinarian and demand and get a toxicology report.
		And if it is a pesticide that killed your animals, you go after them.
		Because that's what I do.
unidentified		That's a low-income high-rise, and they don't even, you know, if I could do a lawsuit, it wouldn't make any difference to them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, it would.
		I don't want to go into the details, obviously, of what could be a legal case on the air.
		But you trust me when I tell you, if you want to, you go find a veterinarian and you get a toxicology report, which isn't going to be all that expensive, and have an autopsy done if you can.
		And if it was indeed something they did, go after their butts.
		That's all there is to it.
		And if that happened to my cats, you can bet I'd want to know what killed them.
		Because there are diseases that can be passed easily.
		You know, feline leukemia is one, and they'll waste away very quickly.
		It's horrible.
		Absolutely horrible.
		So you're going to have to find out what really killed them.
		I'm sorry for your loss, and I understand.
		They're like our children.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Oh, how are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm okay, sir.
unidentified		Hey, boy, that last caller, that's too bad.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, well, but she's got to find out what really happened.
unidentified		Yeah.
		We've got a question for you.
		Gripe and gripe tonight.
		So thanks in advance for hearing me complain.
		In the U.S., our school systems aren't set up for gifted kids.
		Our school systems are set up for the average or low-end.
		If you look at special ed, gifted, as being gifted, which it is, our school systems are set up and receive money for the kids who are low-functioning.
		I've got a son at just six who's at about a seventh to eighth grade level.
		One of the kids you see, unfortunately, that goes to college at 12 or 13 or 12.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you're going to have to get this child into a special school, that's all.
unidentified		There aren't any.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, there are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, there are, sir.
unidentified		Outside of picking up and moving, yeah.
unidentified		There's three in the country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, yeah, but there are other schools for gifted children.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're a rarity, but they're not that rare.
unidentified		but not really gifted, not like...
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you've got a genius on your hands, then you've got some responsibility to get one, find one of these places, maybe even move if you have to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You sound like...
unidentified		Yeah, I'm sorry, I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're in a truck.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, then you're a moving around guy anyway, right?
unidentified		Well, yes.
		And that gets into the kind of the conspiracy theory that that boy, are these places preyed upon by the government?
		No, he has a purely photographic memory.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
		No, it's not a conspiracy, sir.
		It might feel like one, I'm sure.
		But in fact, you know, the educational system in America is aimed at the center.
		You know, and we argue a lot about where that center is intellectually.
		But it's aimed at the center, and so your son does not belong there.
		And I guess it is.
		It's incumbent on you.
		I mean, who else is going to do it?
		If you know you've got a genius on your hands and you've got to get him to a special school, that's all there is to it.
unidentified		Move.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you have to.
		Well, Cordeline, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Ert.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		How you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, sir.
unidentified		What's up?
unidentified		Yeah, I love your show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		I call it the Real Discovery Channel.
		I, you know, it's mind-boggling.
		A lot of the things you've been talking about regarding souls and what happens to the brain and stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		And I don't want to say this name on the air, but I know someone who probably has very vast knowledge about this.
		And to tell you a little bit without saying his name.
		He's been researching for about 15 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is this a public person?
unidentified		They're public in the sense that there's a new book on the market that he has written.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so say the name.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't care.
unidentified		Okay, his name's Dr. Daniel G. Amon.
unidentified		He wrote the Amon Clinic over in Sacramento.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And he wrote a book about what?
unidentified		Images into the Mind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Images what?
unidentified		Images into the Mind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		And I know for at least a decade, probably 15 years, he's been researching a lot of this sort of thing by using what's called a single photon emitted computed tomography machine.
unidentified		And it literally tracks the electrical waves that travel through the brain cell by cell, synapse by synapse, in real time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Like moving pictures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		As opposed to MRIs that take still pictures.
unidentified		And he's applied this in a lot of different unique ways, and he was for a long time, I think, considered experimental.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but what's the bottom line?
unidentified		Well, a lot of the subjects you've been talking about, I think the bottom line is this guy, he might be willing to go on your show, but I think he would have a lot of knowledge that he could add to these subjects that we're pondering.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then get him on here.
		Write him an email.
		Tell them we're hunting for him.
unidentified		But I'll mention one last thing.
unidentified		I noticed, and this goes back to May 21st, on the cover of Newsweek magazine, they were looking at the Timothy McVeigh execution.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And the cover story said, evil.
		What makes people go wrong?
		And they quoted Dr. Amon in this book.
		Obviously, Newsweek considered him probably one of the best minds on the subject.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, sold.
		Sold, absolutely sold.
		I mean, get me some information on the fellow.
		The best way, I know a lot of people want guests on who think are going to be very good on one subject or another.
		He sounds very good.
		Well, get us some info we can track.
		Publishers, names of books, that's good.
		Any phone numbers you might have, even in the beginning contact, that's good.
		Any leads you can give us, that's good.
		And then happy to track somebody down, particularly on this subject.
		But as far as I know, in one of the best medical surgical facilities in the United States, this woman's brain was dead.
		No firing of their neurons we were just talking about.
		No communication between from cell to cell.
		Nothing.
		Zero.
		Flatline.
		Just like when you turn off the power on your computer.
		Gone.
		History.
		No electrons moving.
		Now, if that doesn't go a hell of a long way toward proving that there is some sort of consciousness continuation after physical death, then I don't know what does.
		East to the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello?
		Yes, sir.
		You're on the air.
unidentified		Okay, well, first off, I wanted to say I've been listening to you since September 11th, and I've had friends tell me I need to listen.
unidentified		And ever since then, if there's a radio around and I can control it, it's you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's very kind.
unidentified		I was listening to the lady talk about her poor cats.
		We had a Blue Point Persian.
		We had her for years, and never had a problem with her until we bought the home we're in and moved in here.
		When we moved in here, she was very skittish.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		And, you know, after being in here a couple months, we noticed weird things happening.
		Like, you know, you put something one place and you'd get up the next morning to find it someplace else.
		You'd hear people walking upstairs, you know.
		And she would be sleeping peacefully on the footstool and all of a sudden she'd just perk up and just bolt and dash upstairs and hide behind the toilet in the hall bathroom upstairs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you had an entity in the house.
unidentified		Right.
		And this went on for months.
		And one night I was sitting here watching TV and she was on the footstool and she just perked up and she started hissing.
		And she was hissing in my direction.
		Right.
		And I was kind of glad I was on the phone with a friend of mine when all this was happening because next thing I know, I told him, I says, this thing is around, whatever it is, whatever she sees.
		And the next thing I know, it passed right through me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The entity passed through you?
unidentified		I tried calling you when you had your special line about people playing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand very busy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What did it feel like when this happened?
unidentified		The only way I can describe this, and this is going to sound kind of corny, okay, but take your most pleasurable, intimate experience and multiply it by 10.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		Okay.
		And it was just like, oh my God.
		And the minute I felt like it went completely through me, the cat took off and went upstairs.
		Okay?
		Well, we've been in here now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, you think about sex as being real close to somebody, right?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But somebody actually going all the way through you, that's got to be really intimate.
unidentified		It was just, I mean, it was awesome.
		Okay.
		And we've been in here now almost 10 years, and unfortunately, Canasta passed away about two years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Your cat.
unidentified		My cat, yes.
		And we haven't had any experiences with them whatsoever.
		Since?
		And we've even come up with a name, and we know this much, that it was a young male who was a college student here at UT.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, are you familiar with the term familiar?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know what a familiar is?
unidentified		Uh, I don't know about...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		To somebody involved in the arts, you know, the craft, they call it.
		A familiar is an animal that will attach itself to you quite frequently a cat, for example.
		And it may Well, be that your cat was bringing this to you.
unidentified		Why?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know, sir.
		I don't have all the answers.
		I just do a talk show.
		I'm just telling you a possibility.
		And you said it stopped when your cat passed.
unidentified		When she passed, it didn't start until we actually got into the place we're in now.
		Right.
		And that's when it all started.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, but a familiar, you see, would be a channel for that sort of thing.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just a guess, but probably a pretty good one.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Cool.
		Thank you very much for the call and take care.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		This is Tyler, calling from Reno, Nevada.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How you doing, Tyler?
unidentified		Good.
		Quick question for you.
		I'm a big fan of, I'm a huge fan of your show.
		And up until recently, I've been a huge fan of the X-Files, but I've been noticing that they've sort of been having some difficulty with the writing on the show lately.
		So very quickly, I was wondering, have you been approached to be a consultant for paranormal and conspiracy-style stories for that show?
		Number one.
		And the second question is, I understand you had an interview with Chris Carter a while back, which is legendary.
		I've never heard it.
		Is there any chance that that might get rebroadcast sometime in the future?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, there's always a chance, sure.
		Yeah, that was a good interview.
		That was a lot of fun.
		Charles, I'll see what I can do about that.
		With respect to your first question, no.
		Well, we did talk.
		I did talk to Chris a little bit about the X-Files, but I don't, you know, I'm not doing television.
		I have been, approached is the wrong word.
		I have been besieged by people wanting me to do television shows, you know, big networks, and I won't even name them here, big networks.
		And I've thought really long and hard, believe me, I've thought long and hard about it, and I don't want to do it.
		The formats that are offered, even for television, what's a long form format, you know, an hour, it's not enough.
		It's not enough to do what I do.
		What I do is, well, I don't know what I do, is whatever I do here on the radio.
		And television just is not suited.
		It's built into these little segments.
		It's rehearsed.
		And even if you have a live show, you know, it's pretty well planned out ahead exactly what's going to happen.
		I can't handle that.
		I want the unexpected, the unknown.
		And so I've turned down television many, many, many, many times.
		And they just cannot understand it.
		And it seems like the more you say no, the more they come after you.
		But I'm just not going to do it.
		I've really thought hard about this.
		This is my medium, this long-form radio stuff where you can really get your teeth into something.
		And television just doesn't allow that.
		You know, they need the visuals.
		They need a lot of things, and they just can't afford the luxury of sitting back sometimes and just contemplating a subject for a long time.
		That's not TV.
		You know, TV's minute by minute.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, call poll-free, 1-800-825-5033.
		Oh, no.
		Now, see, you made me bleep that out.
		We don't allow people to give last names on the air, Richard.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I bleeped that out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Your name is Richard?
unidentified		Yes, calling from Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, okay.
unidentified		I'm interested with your soul situation.
		I have an operation coming up, which I ought to find interesting.
		I've never had an operation.
		However, I have had a couple of experiences in my younger days with entities, if you will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What kind of entities?
unidentified		Well, I actually was at a person's house.
		I've done some studying, you might say, from people.
		And I was at a person's house who was dying.
		And they had nurses there taking care of them.
		And I saw someone dancing in the other room.
		And I heard her say, please make the people who are in that room not be in my living room because I'm waiting for him to die so he could join me.
		So I don't know where it is that they're going or what's going on, but I actually have no fear of dying because of that particular instance.
		I've had a couple of instances.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, your stories are not so unusual.
		People who are around the dying, you know, in various organizations that take care of people who are terminal, you will hear a million stories like this, just a million stories like this.
		Something apparently happens, unless you're hit by a Mac truck and you don't know you're going.
		As you get close to death, something begins to happen.
		An adjustment begins to take place and you start seeing things that other people are not seeing.
		This is all, you know, no single bit of this proof that we're beginning to compile, that I'm beginning to notice really heavily, is by itself going to prove that there is an existence on the other side.
		But like court cases that are finally assembled on and convictions are made on circumstantial evidence, you know, an overwhelming amount of it, I think there's beginning to be no question that we're beginning to get the case, a case big enough to say, hey, folks, it's real.
		There really is something after we go.
		I think we're that close.
		If we're not already there, and I think it's pretty exciting.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		This is Kenneth Brand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can hardly hear you, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on a cell phone, right?
unidentified		Yes, I am.
		Okay.
		I'm in a truck.
		I hauled the U.S. Mail.
		Oh, there's something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
		There's a little interruption in the cell phone.
		You haul U.S. Mail?
unidentified		Yes, I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		And I've been listening to you all the time.
		You helped me make it through the night.
		One thing I've been wanting to touch on that they talk about in the Bible about a baby being born without a soul and that being the Antichrist.
		Is there a possibility, do you think, that if we clone a baby, a human being, then souls being godly things, it wouldn't have a soul?
		That may be the starting of the Antichrist?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That the Antichrist would be born of our own hand.
		Now there's an interesting concept for you.
		Most people think that a clone would have a soul.
		Uh not all, mind you, but most people think a clone would have a soul.
		This is another subject that I am just uh I think we're finally scheduling the guest that I want for this subject.
		But the man speculates that we would uh that we will ultimately create a clone.
		And of course we know they're going ahead.
		I've got stories.
		They're going whether or not we pass laws going to make a damn bit of difference.
		They're going ahead and cloning human beings very quickly too.
		Now wouldn't it be an ultimate irony if that man was right and that the first human born without a soul turns out to be the Antichrist?
		I'm not saying that's the case or I have any reason to believe it is, but one can speculate about such things.
		Especially if one doesn't care what he's saying.
		That the first one born without a soul would be the Antichrist and that it would happen somewhere in a lab.
unidentified		You look like an angel.
unidentified		I bet it'd be a cute baby too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When it began to crawl, it would walk just like a baby.
		Be like a regular baby.
		It would not be a regular baby.
		That's where it would be.
		This is Coast to Coast AM, and if you'll stick around, coming up in a moment, is Kevin Mitnick.
unidentified		You fool me with your kisses.
		You get it and you skin.
		Heaven knows how you lie to me.
		You lied the way you seem.
		You look like an angel.
		Walk like an angel.
		Talk like an angel.
		Talk like an angel.
		Some building morning when I'm straight I'm gonna open up your gate And maybe tell you about the Vedra And how she gave me life And how she made
		it in Some building morning when I'm straight Flowers growing on the hill Driving flies and drop for tears Learn from us very much Look
		at us but do not touch Vedra is my name Vedra is my name reach our bells in the Kingdom of Nai from west of the Rockies dial 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222 or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
		Good morning.
		He's a myth.
		He's a legend.
		He's Kevin Mitnick, and we've never spoken with him, although I've had a million requests to have him on the air over the years.
		A myth, a legend, a good guy, a bad guy, a guy who's been in jail, a guy who...
		I'll tell you about some of it in a moment.
unidentified		Stay right there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Kevin Mitnick graduated cum laude at computer systems and programming from a technical college in California.
		Went on to successfully complete a postgraduate project in designing enhanced security applications that ran on top of a computer's operating system.
		With more than 15 years of experience in exploring computer security, Kevin Mitnick is a largely self-taught expert in exposing the vulnerabilities of complex operating systems and telecommunications devices.
		His hobby as an adolescent consisted of studying methods, tactics, and strategies used to circumvent computer security and to learn more about how computer systems and telecommunication systems work.
		Now, there's a childhood for you.
		In building this body of knowledge, Kevin gained unauthorized access, it has been said, to computer systems at some of the largest corporations on the planet and penetrated some of the most resilient computer systems ever developed by man.
		He's used both technical and non-technical means to obtain the source code to various operating systems and telecommunications devices to study their vulnerabilities and their inner workings and play with them.
		He was invited to testify before the Senate Committee on Governmental Affairs to assist in their efforts to create effective legislation that would ensure the future security and reliability of information systems owned and operated by, on behalf of, the federal government.
		In other words, they want to be sure they're safe and Kevin's got to tell them, right?
		As the world's most famous hacker, Kevin has been the subject of countless news and magazine articles published throughout the world has made guest appearances on all kinds of TV and radio programs offering expert commentary on issues related to information security.
		In addition to appearing on local network news programs, he's made appearances on 60 Minutes, The Learning Channel, Tech TV's Screensavers, Core TV, Good Morning America, CNN's Burden of Proof, Street Sweep, Talk Back Live, Canada AM, Marketplace, National Public Radio, and as a guest star on ABC's new spy drama, Alias.
		Kevin also keynoted at numerous industry events, most recently at the Giga Information Group's Infrastructures for e-business conference, the Software Developers Expo 2000 conference, DEF COM Security Conference, and Spinnaker's Community Security Conferences.
		He has written for, get this, Time Magazine, Newsweek, UK Guardian, securityfocus.com, and 2600 The Hacker Quarterly.
		The Hacker Quarterly.
		He also authored a monthly column for, what is this, Cuntville, Critiquing Commuter Magazines, Computer Magazines.
		He hosted a radio show, by the way, on one of my affiliates, CAFIAM640 in Los Angeles, entitled The Dark Side of the Internet.
		The Dark Side of the Internet.
		Here he is, The Myth, The Legend.
		Kevin, welcome.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Hey, thank you, Art.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		It's an honor to be here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's great to have you.
		I've heard so much about you over the years.
		Your reputation certainly definitely precedes you on this program.
		Boy, you've really got some.
		How did you get such a reputation anyway?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I guess over the years, I've been involved in telephones, and I think we also have something in common.
		I'm also an amateur radio operator.
		And since I was a young boy, I was into CBs, ham radio, electronics, and computers and telephones.
		And I fell into kind of a hobby, if you will, of exploring these types of systems.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Intimately.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Intimately, is a good word.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		And what I ended up doing is for, you know, in my youth, it was a way of combating boredom, if you will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How old are you now?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		38.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		38.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I was involved.
		I started in computer systems and telephones when I was 16 years old.
		And I just developed a fascination for technology, and I wanted to explore technology to the nth degree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were you a geek?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		I guess you can call it that.
		I kind of dedicated my life and all my time into exploring and playing with electronics.
		I always wanted to know how things worked.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, geeked him.
unidentified		No question.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I guess he could label me as such.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Now, is it true?
		Is it not true?
		The New York Times once said that you, did you break into NORAD?
		They said you broke into NORAD, which is, of course, our Matthew Broderick did war games, and a lot of people saw that, and so they kind of know what this is all about.
		You didn't break into NORAD, did you?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		No, that was essentially a false story.
		It ended up on the front page of the New York Times back in July of 1994, and there was a front page piece, and the reporter, a technological reporter by the name of John Markoff, reported that I broke into NORAD among other things that I didn't do.
		And I think the story came actually from the movie War Games, and that act was attributed to me, and it kind of elevated the danger of Kevin Mitnick, if you will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, did you ever, let's rephrase it, did you ever try to break into NORAD?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		No, not at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you ever consider breaking into NORAD?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		No, and I don't think it's possible because any type of government network, especially any type of computer systems that would control nuclear weapons, you would think that they would not be connected to any type of public network.
		At least I hope not.
		But no, I've never endeavored to break into any such systems.
		It just seems like the myth of Kevin Mitnick and the reality of Kevin Mitnick has been so intertwined over the years, mostly at the hands of some irresponsible journalists, and it's created, there's a lot of stories about me that simply, yeah, but that's good and bad, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, in a sense, it adds to the myth and the legend, which is probably in a way a good thing in some ways.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then, of course, in others, I suppose, not.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a bad thing, especially when you become a target of the federal government.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah, that's a good idea.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		And they use this myth, if you will, to treat you in an inappropriate manner.
		I recall a day in court when I was standing in front of a federal magistrate, and a prosecutor asked the magistrate to put a special condition on my phone usage when I was held in custody.
		And the reason for this restriction was the prosecutor claimed that I could merely whistle into a telephone and launch nuclear missiles.
		And of course, I kind of looked at the prosecutor and I looked at the judge and I said the judge couldn't, you know, would never consider this to be true.
		And yet the judge, you know, found that, I think the quote was, when armed with a keyboard, I was a danger to national security or the world.
		And I ended up being held in a federal detention center for eight months in solitary confinement.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They didn't buy the part about the whistling.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, that was the excuse they used among many other myths that never panned out.
		But that was the one that was the shocker.
		It seemed like I was there, but I was in a sense watching a fictional television show.
		I just simply couldn't believe it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You didn't laugh, did you?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I kind of like, oh, oh, the judge isn't going to believe this.
		Their credibility is going to go out the door, and yet apparently when a federal prosecutor or federal law enforcement speaks, apparently the judicial system believes them 100%.
		I guess that's how it goes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, if they believed that, your time would have, not only would they not have let you near a phone, you'd have had to have been gagged full time so you couldn't whistle, you know?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was strange because as soon as I agreed to some of the government's demands, it seemed that all of a sudden I didn't become this, you know, this danger to national security, if you will, and they let me out of solitary confinement after about eight months.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Solitary confinement.
		We'll get to that in a moment.
		How many times were you actually arrested?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I would say, I think about four to five.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I was arrested when I was arrested when I was made a career out of computer hacking, if you will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was your first arrest?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		When I was a juvenile back in, I believe it was 1981.
		I was 17 years old.
		And I was arrested for actually physically going into the telephone company.
		And myself and a couple of friends of mine, we went into the phone company to basically look, you know, we were interested in looking around and looking at where all the different computer systems were.
		And we did a really stupid, stupid thing.
		And we didn't have time to sit there and read the manuals to study how to transact commands on the computer.
		So what our plan was is we were going to go to an all-night copy shop and copy some of the manuals.
		So we took them out of the building.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They let you get you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How'd you get them out?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Just carried them to the car.
		And then we were scared to go back because we figured, oh, they might find out or the security guard will become wise or for some reason.
		And then we ended up dumping the manuals.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, you just picked up the manuals and boldly walked out with them in plain view?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I think the security guard even helped us carry them to the car.
		And here I was 17 years old.
		I didn't have any type of identity.
		The company was a Pacific Bell or Pacific Telephone at the time.
		It doesn't exist anymore.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's something they would like to, it seems to me, if they did exist, they would want to address right away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, the security guards are not supposed to help you carry their manuals to the car.
unidentified		Right.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		So that was when I, you know, that was my first brush with the law.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		And that was the only time where I really did anything in a physical sense, if you will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you threw them away?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I got scared.
		We were scared kids, and we couldn't bring them back, and we figured we didn't want to, you know, obviously get caught with them, so we threw them away.
		But because of my reputation and because the phone company kind of knew who I was because of my reputation, it was called phone freaking at the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		And so I was their number one suspect, and also there was another person that was involved in our group, if you will, that knew about this, and I believe they called up Pacific Bell Security and told them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, I've interviewed Captain Crunch, you know.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		John Draper, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, John's friend.
		And, you know, there is a sort of a little bit of truth to the whistle thing, as he proved.
		There is a tone, or there was a tone.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		2,600 hertz.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which one could produce, perhaps with a whistle, that would, what would it do?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, in the old days, what you would do is you'd whistle off a trunk, and then you'd use a signaling system called multi-frequency.
		And then what you could essentially do is talk to the phone company's switch, if you will, and route calls anywhere in the world that you want to.
		And it's a system that was really what they called in-band signaling.
		So that kind of, in today's world, with electronic switching systems, that technique doesn't work anymore.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But that's probably the kernel of truth that was used to get you whistling ICBMs into the air, right?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but I think it was a far-stretch art that whistling 2,600 hertz, and you couldn't place a call, really.
		No, except I have to take that back.
		There was a show on the Discovery Channel, which I was part of, which there was this old phone freak guy named Joe Ingressia.
		And on the show, they actually showed him picking up a telephone, whistling pulses of 2,600 hertz into the phone, and calling the phone next to him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		And that demonstration was, I think, the best part of the documentary, because it was just simply amazing that you could whistle.
		And this guy had perfect pitch.
		He was blind.
		And he could actually whistle calls, place telephone calls by whistling into the telephone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like the pinball wizard, yeah.
		Okay.
		Anyway, you've got most of your trouble.
		Today, today, right now, are you allowed to own a computer?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have these, I have the most stringent conditions of supervised release in which I can't possess or own or use a computer, a cell phone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not so much as a VIC-20?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Not a VIC-20, not a personal organizer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nothing.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Maybe not even a watch that has a computer built into it that would have extra functionality.
		A cable television that has the ability to hook up to the Internet.
		And get this, is any device that could act as a computer or that can access a computer.
		Now, I have these, I mean, broad conditions where I can't really possess devices of technology, but it's all subject to the discretion of the probation department.
		So the probation department, when they feel that it's okay, they can allow me to possess or use any of those devices.
		Like, for example, I have a cellular phone now.
		And I've had one for over a year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They let you have a cell phone?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		And what's interesting is my case, my fascination for radios and computers really evolved around cellular technology.
		And I really wanted to know, how do these devices work?
		I wanted to be able to pull them apart.
		I wanted to look at the software, the firmware, you know, which is computer instructions on a chip.
		And rather than reverse engineering it to learn the inner workings, I hacked into these companies, if you will.
		And I looked at the, I accessed the source code so I can, you know, understand how everything worked.
		And my whole case, in a sense, you know, centered around cellular phone technology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No kidding.
		Yeah.
		And so now they let you have a cell phone.
		Maybe you shouldn't be explaining this right now.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, there's no danger.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe they'll reconsider.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They'll come in and take your cell phone away.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's, it's, it's, I don't think so.
		Because if somebody, you know, for instance, a bank robber robs a bank, do you put a condition of release that they can't use money?
		Or a forger cannot use a pen?
		I mean, that's, that's, it gets to be, it gets to be a little bit absurd.
		But I think the real reason, you know, I did stuff that was wrong and I deserve to be punished.
		But in my case, you know, it's been my sincere belief that the punishment and the crime, because in my exploration of, you know, computer systems, you know, I learned some things, you know, that, you know, that the government, I think, would rather that I didn't learn.
		And I think based on, on, on the, on this knowledge that I obtained that they, they treated me in a very harsh fashion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they were scared of you.
		Well, moreover, it was a really big problem that, well, it is now too.
		But then it was a really big and new problem.
		And they needed to crush somebody as an example.
		You know, the IRS crushes people as examples every now and then.
		And it works.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I, I, I, I think I, I, I coined the term, I, I, I have won the, uh, scapegoat sweepstakes, if you will, is, you know, I deserve to be punished for, you know, crossing the line and breaking the law.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		But I was really punished as if I committed, you know, some sort of espionage against the country or industrial, industrial espionage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Um, and you didn't.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		And I didn't.
unidentified		And I never.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long were you in jail?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Five years?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Five years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Five years.
unidentified		Yeah.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		The government never alleged that I intended to profit, that I intentionally try to cause harm by crashing computer systems or erasing data.
		Right.
		My, and that's not to say that what I did do was, you know, okay, but I was treated as, you know, there's been a lot of other malicious type hacking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but they claimed you did $80 million in damage.
unidentified		Well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		$80 million.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		No, it was $300 million.
		$300 million.
		$300 million of damage.
		And, and how they got to that number is, remember that I, i looked at the source code to these different you know cellular phone technologies, and I was interested in looking at the source code to different operating systems to figure out how they worked.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kevin, Kevin, we're at a breakpoint.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold on, we're at the bottom of the hour.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		$300 million.
unidentified		Ooh, that's a lot of money.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't think he agrees with the figure, though.
		We'll find out when we get back from the high desert Amartelle.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		This is Coast to Coast AM.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
		And my guest is Kevin Mitnick.
		Somebody so dangerous that he can go.
		And it's the night Chicago died.
		We'll get back to Kevin in a moment.
		Once again, Kevin Mitnick.
		$300 million.
		$300 million.
		People have been killed for a lot less than that, Kevin.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and I'm looking at my wallet now.
		I'm trying to see if I can pay it off as restitution.
		No, just anyway, where the $300 million figure came to play is because I was kind of the government's example, the Uber hacker.
		The figure was the amount of money that these companies, that I looked at their source code, that they spent on research and development to develop the product.
		And even though I never intended nor did I ever use or disclose any of the information I looked at, it was the government's theory was that if you copy or you access the information, you are essentially stealing that information.
		So under the federal sentencing guidelines, it's the value of the property.
		So how do you determine the value?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but don't you have to prove damages to some degree?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, yes, maybe you have the information, but let's say you had used it or given it to a competitor or something like that, then where are the damages?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		That was my defense team's position.
		And the government's position was, well, we just add up the value of the property.
		And it took Sun Microsystems.
		They put $80 million into developing Solaris.
		And Motorola put $200 billion into developing the MicroAttack Ultralight.
		So what they just simply did was add up those figures.
		But that's not uncommon in hacker cases.
		I don't know if you're familiar with the Craig Nydorf case.
		This was, I think, a kid at the time.
		He was involved with a group called the Atlanta 3.
		And what they did is they got access to a Southwest Bell computer that essentially had no password.
		They just found the dial-in number and they dialed up and they were logged in with no password.
		And what they found on there was a document describing the E911 system and I guess some technical jargon and maybe how the system was put together.
		I'm not really familiar with the information in detail.
		And that article, or that document found its way into an online computer enthusiast magazine or hacker magazine, if you will, called FRAC.
		And the government or the Southwestern Bell was very unhappy that that information ended up in the public domain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, they freaked out.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Certainly.
		And of course, the government and the phone company's position is, oh, with this information, a malicious person could take down the emergency 911 system, which was the furthest thing from the truth.
		It was kind of the same thing about launching nuclear missiles by whistling into a telephone.
		But in any event, the government alleged that this group caused thousands and thousands of dollars in damage that the cost of the computer, get this, the mini computer that an employee wrote the document on, the full cost of that computer, the full cost of the staff that operates the computer.
		It came out to something like $100,000 of damages that the government was claiming.
		And what ended up happening is their whole case fell apart when the defense attorney was able to find that anyone, anyone in the public or simply ordered that document by calling an 800 number out of some Bell journal, and the cost was $13.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you understand why our government does what they do in coming after people like you and the man you just mentioned?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you understand why?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think it's justified?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or do you see any other way that they could effectively say, look, we're going to enforce this law and this guy is going down?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, I really think, in my opinion, I think you really have to look at what the person's intent was and what damages that are really caused rather than really go on the fear of being...
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Because in my case, I really felt that I was kind of punished for my potential rather than the actual deeds that I have done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've been considering your potential.
		I mean, if you began this at 16, you're 38 now, boy, you're just barely getting to your prime.
		I mean, consider, if you were still loose and doing what you wanted to do, consider what you would be doing by now.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but what I'm doing these days, I'm taking my background, my knowledge, and experience, and I'm using it to help people protect themselves against the people that want to intrude on their computer systems.
		And it's really the same challenge.
		So what I'm doing in today's world is I'm taking a negative and making it into a positive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, look, I'll tell you something.
		A lot of criminals could be cops, and a lot of cops could be criminals.
		It's a really thin blue line indeed.
		It just depends on which way you go.
		And, you know, some cops have sort of violent tendencies.
		That's why they're in the work they're in, because they like the adrenaline rush.
		They like the chase.
		They like all of it.
		And that's not all that different in some ways than the criminal mind.
		I mean, there is obviously a difference, but it's just which path you went down.
		You went down the other one.
		You spent five years in prison, and I understand...
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, I spent four and a half years as a pretrial detainee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, that's what I want to ask about this ridiculous solitary confinement.
		They had you in solitary confinement.
		Now, for your crime, that wouldn't, on the face of it, seem justified.
		But why were you in solitary?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, the government prosecutors convinced the judge that I was such a danger, even if I was in custody, that to really control me, that they would have to put me in solitary confinement.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		And I think a lot of it had to do with, you know, about, you know, the, you know, stuff that I learned, you know, stuff that I learned about, you know, our government, stuff that I, you know, stuff that I, you know, it's kind of difficult for me because I'm not really at liberty to talk about certain things because, you know, to be honest with you, I'm kind of, you know, fearful that if I were to disclose certain things, you know, jail might be a pleasant experience compared to, you know, what could happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
		Yes.
		That stuff, you know stuff that serious?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Stuff that I've come across that I think that they would rather remain private.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then let me ask it this way.
		Let me try asking it this way.
		Do you know things that if were made public, the public would be frightened of or would not approve of, you know, things that our government is pursuing, things they're pursuing and doing?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Let's just say there's a dark side out there.
		There is truly a dark side out there and not, not particularly, not particularly our elected government, but there's, I don't know, like in the, in the, in the, in the fictional, like spy drama alias, you have the CIA and you have SD6 and SD6 is like the evil government faction that really, you know, works and does underhanded stuff that the public doesn't know about.
		I guess that would be the closest analogy without getting into too much detail that were, that might get me in some trouble.
		And at the best, and it's kind of risky for me to even talk about such things, especially since I'm still really under the government's control.
		I'm on federal supervised release.
		It doesn't take anything but a phone call to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do they make you like wear a little bracelet around your ankle or something?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		No, no, that's, that's what they call home supervision.
		I'm basically, it's, it's kind of very similar to probation.
		Okay, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you hadn't been released with these special conditions, not allowing you near, nearly anything electronic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long would you then have remained incarcerated?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I did by full time.
		In the, in the federal system, you, they don't, they have a thing called good time, but you could earn up to 54 days a year maximum, unless you cooperate with the government and become an informant.
		And they usually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then why aren't you totally free?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do you have conditions?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Because that's how it is.
		You still have, you, the, the, the federal statute gives the federal judge power to impose a condition of, impose terms and conditions of supervised release even after you did all your time.
		And the, the system that everyone is really familiar with, which was called parole, which they don't have in the federal system, is where you're sentenced to, say, five years.
		You do three and you, you get out and you do two under supervision.
		Right.
		In the federal system, you get sentenced to five years.
		You do four years, four and a half years, and you still get three extra years of supervision.
		And, and interestingly, if you violate a term or condition of supervised release, even after you did all your time, the judge could actually have the power to impose a new prison sentence.
		And then when you get out, give you another term of supervised release.
		Wow.
		It's a very interesting system that the, uh, the public is probably not aware of.
unidentified		Whew.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I certainly wasn't.
		Um, all right.
		You were a hacker.
		Um, a lot of people argue about what a hacker is.
		What is, what is the accurate definition, uh, from you of what a hacker is?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, to me, a hacker is not really a person.
		It's really a skill set.
		It's a, it's a, it's a way of thinking, like out of the box thinking.
		And the, the term originally, I guess, was coined back in the, uh, 60s era with, uh, MIT, people that were computer enthusiasts that you have, uh, back then, you know, memory, you know, computers were much more expensive.
		You didn't have as much memory or, and, and all the technical innovations we have today.
		So computer programs, you know, one of the things like a, a hacker would do is try to write a program that would be more efficient than another, or do things that the hardware wasn't intended.
		intended to do.
		I guess a good analogy would be is if you're, if you like tinkering with cars and you're a car enthusiast and,
		you're able to rebuild the engine or get more performance out of that engine by doing some you know by doing something that wasn't meant to be done that's what I call hacking that's my definition and I think it's an accepted definition by others and then I also include in hacking is thinking and getting around obstacles,
		you know, circumventing computer security measures, not to cause harm or to profit, but it's kind of like, you know, a lot of hackers that I know are also for fun.
		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, for fun.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For the feeling of accomplishment and fun and beating them, right?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Oh, hacking was fun.
		I mean, that was the reason that I was involved, and it was purely for the fun and for the thrill and the intellectual challenge, not for any malicious type purposes.
		And it's kind of like, like I was going to mention a second ago, is hacking is kind of like a sense of lock picking.
		A lot of hackers that I know are also interested in being proficient at picking locks, not to break into people's homes, but just to, hey, it's something you're really not supposed to be doing.
		It's, you know, I'd like to learn how it's done, how a lock works, how to take it apart, how to defeat it, just because you want to know.
		Just because it's there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, here's the problem today.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We have the internet going strongly today, and when somebody like yourself discovers something, it is then quickly, of course published on the internet somewhere and then a million people who are not really skilled hackers but script kiddies just grab on to what you have written and posted and now you have a gazillion people out there doing serious damage well that's that we're going to get into the debate this is called what they call the full disclosure debate in other words when
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		And there's vulnerability researchers, people that either get paid or they have a hobby of figuring out certain security vulnerabilities within operating systems or applications.
		What has been done in the past is these vulnerability researchers were reported to, like there was one organization that is well-known called CERT, a computer emergency response team that's run out of Carnegie Mellon University.
		And what CERT would normally do is be the liaison between the vulnerability discoverer and the company whose product has the security flaw.
		And what ended up happening is the software manufacturers would either bury their head in the sand and not fix the problem or take forever to fix the problem or just say, oh, it's theoretical.
		It really doesn't exist.
		And what ended up happening is all these computer systems out there would be vulnerable except to the people that knew how to exploit the vulnerabilities.
		So what ended up happening is...
		you know there became a full disclosure uh movement that when a vulnerability is discovered it's immediately posted to like a mailing list such as bug track which is available on securityfocus.com right and and what it does is it kind of forces the manufacturer to the software manufacturer like one of the biggest ones is Microsoft of course to fix the security problem sure and because if you try to get you know information just always has a way of becoming free but
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And between those times, a lot of the hacker wannabes grab onto it and do a lot of damage.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		That is true.
		It's a double-edged sword.
		When you publish information, especially when it comes to security vulnerabilities, if that vulnerability, well, the good thing is, hopefully the people that are the security staff or the system administrators are exercising some watch over their systems.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Being diligent.
		So with that said, they should be applying the patches, which are the fixes to these security problems.
		They should be...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But these guys aren't going to the manufacturers and saying, Hey, guys, look, you've got a problem.
		They're posting something.
		Hey, guys, guess what I found?
		Look at this.
		Try it.
		That's what's really going on.
		Well, I don't know about that.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I think what they do, I think what the majority does is they send it to the manufacturer and give them a week.
		And if there's not a fix-out, they'll post the vulnerability in hopes that either the poster will post a workaround or it will be released to the world, if you will.
		So a workaround could be released into the manufacturer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Either way, the manufacturer gets busy.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's pretty much the whole intention behind folder disclosures, really, to get these people off their butts to fix the security problems.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		When you were in jail, let me question...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		quote from msnbc.com uh quote scores of websites have been altered by sympathetic attackers to include calls for his your freedom notably the new york times website unicef and yahoo uh home pages so uh you had an army of people out there sympathetic to your plight and they were plundering in your name uh did you know that was going on when you were in prison well i knew about it when i when my attorney
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		advised me or I read it in a newspaper or magazine.
		And I know that there was, you know, I have and I have, you know, a lot of supporters.
		You know, there was kind of a grassroots movement.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		An army.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		No, I wouldn't call it an army of malicious hackers.
		There was a few bad apples out there that decided that they would go ahead and deface a website in my name, which I, you know, never condoned or appreciated it, you know, because it kind of gave, you know, hacking, well, hackers more of a, you know, a malicious tone.
		Like, oh, all these, all hackers do bad things with computers.
		They destroy stuff.
		They deface websites.
		And that really, and when these individuals did this, of course, it, you know, gave the media the fuel they needed to, you know, take that position.
		But I was really in no control.
		You know, I was in federal, you know, custody again for, you know, years even before trial.
		So I really had no control of what other people did.
		But I, I do recall having, asking my attorney to put out some notice that, you know, asking these people to, you know, stop doing such things in my name.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Stop doing this in my name.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Stop trying to help me into more years in here.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Exactly.
		And, uh, again, I, unfortunately, I had no control of what other, these other people, you know, did on my behalf.
		And it wasn't really on my behalf.
		It was really, it really actually harmed, you know, my case rather than, you know, help me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, of course.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh, some of these larger corporations that you did break into, the computers you got into, how hard was it really?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, some were harder than others.
		Um, it, uh, you know, I guess I, you know, what I can say, I was, I was, I was good at what I did.
		Uh, and I think there was only one system that I, you know, that I tried to get into that I was unable to get into it.
		And that was because it was actually, you know, a personal computer sitting at this gentleman's house in England.
		Uh, there was, uh, I believe a modem was attached, but not for any incoming calls.
		And this was before the, you know, the internet.
		This was back in the early 1990s.
		And other than that, I was always successful at doing it.
		And, and, uh, I was just good, you know, after, you know, you have years of practice doing something, you just become good at it.
		And, and I can't say it was all, it was very easy.
		I can't say it was very hard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's got to be a special talent involved.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, there's, there's got to be, you didn't get to where you were just by being the average hacker.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I'm really good at thinking uh my way around obstacles and i'm i'm whenever i put my mind to doing something i i i do a stellar job at it so uh i became the uh stellar you know i was kind of a stellar hacker if you will um and what talent is that i mean it it just it's got to be more.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of people out there who are good at solving problems, but not these kinds of problems.
		Not security systems, not making their way around tight security systems.
		That's a special talent.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I guess it's kind of, in a sense, you bring it down to the physical world of being a good safe cracker.
		But the thing is, when you're looking at information security, I guess I kind of looked at the big picture, if you will.
		I wouldn't just look at the system.
		I would look at, well, information is fluid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kevin, we're at the top of the hour.
		We've got to break.
		All right.
		Hold it right there.
		We'll be right back.
		I'm R. Doug.
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		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or if you've got the talent, just whistle us up.
		Once again, Kevin Metnick, he's the world's most famous hacker.
		Is that a title you enjoy?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, I never endeavored to have that title.
		In fact, my goal was to maintain a low profile.
		But I remember when we were talking earlier about knowing a little bit too much about certain types of things.
		And I could give you an example.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, go right ahead.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		An example of something that we stumbled across years ago.
		This was a system called SAS.
		It stood for switched access services.
		And it was a test system that was put in, that the phone company used for testing lines and such.
		And what this system would allow you to do is from a remote location, simply by knowing a telephone number and having something like a laptop computer, you could basically pop in on anybody's telephone conversation without their knowledge.
		You can monitor anyone and anyone that had service with this particular phone company.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait a minute now.
		It seems to me that in order to do such thing, even for law enforcement, even for the feds, you've got to have reasonable suspicion.
		Go to a judge and get a line tap authorization, right?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Art, no.
		This system, anyone could have access, but just by knowing how to do it.
		No court order needed.
		In fact, one of the informants that was working against, you know, that was helping the FBI collect evidence against me during their investigation, he was in trouble himself.
		And when they executed a search warrant, they seized the manuals which he needed to access the system to essentially conduct intercepts or wiretaps from a remote location.
		And what the FBI ended up doing was actually giving him the manuals back when he was working for their interests.
		So this informant was actually using SAS to monitor people and collect the information to pass to the FBI.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the FBI knew that?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess, what do they call it?
		Plausible deniability.
		Of course they knew about it, but they don't know how the informant's getting the information.
		That's really, you know, it's kind of what they call turning a blind eye.
		So imagine just by having access to a computer and having a phone line that you can dial up into, you know, to the voice, into the voice section, you know, you have to have two phone lines.
		One is to actually dial into the computer system itself and one is to actually monitor the conversation.
		So you have to be able to dial into the voice path, if you will.
		And from anywhere in the world, an outsider could monitor anyone and the target would not have a clue.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, right.
		Question.
		Was this flaw, was this a flaw in the system that allowed this?
		Or was it an intentional back door?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		It was an intentional backdoor, but the back door wasn't secured.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, but even having such a backdoor secured or unsecured, it would seem to me would be a violation of human rights, constitutional rights, all kinds of things.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was the back door for the phone company to test their own circuits.
		And so it appeared to be legitimate, but what bothers me about this is here you had a government informant, and the federal law enforcement knew about this particular system, yet they still allowed this informant who was working for their interests to use the system.
		That's what disturbs me about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that eliminates that pesky need for court orders.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it is a problem, you know, because it is, you have to demonstrate probable cause.
		You have to, I think for Title III intercepts at the time, you had to demonstrate there was no other investigative techniques that would, that, where law enforcement could obtain the information.
		But, you know, it was really, you know, disturbing.
		And the government was, you know, very unhappy, you know, when this system was discovered.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll bet they were.
		Listen, Donald in Fort Worth, Texas asks the following good question, too.
		There were some guys that went before Congress who said directly to the congressional folks listening that they could bring, they had the ability, they could, if they wanted to, bring down the Internet in 30 minutes.
		Do you believe that could be done?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I know the people that claimed that.
		That was a group called At Stake.
		I think it would be difficult because what the Internet has been designed to do is if a portion of the Internet is made unavailable, how it communicates through the Internet protocol, what it does is it routes the packet or routes the information through another means, through another path, if you will.
		And when I was thinking about what they said, because I remember hearing that, it would seem that they would have to somehow take over the core routers of the Internet and somehow saturate it with traffic to interfere.
		But I don't think they could.
		I found it surprising that they would claim they can simply take down the whole Internet in 30 minutes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So if, though, you had sort of an army, either technologically or numerically or both, and you could attack certain key points, you might be able to pull off a gigantic denial of service that would...
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		They can basically act like master control, if you will, and launch, have all these computers attack a particular target.
		But I think it would be extremely difficult to take down the internet as a whole.
		And I really think if it was possible, somebody would have done it already.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good point.
		Good point.
		I read my audience a rather obscure article the other day about something that sounds pretty frightening to me.
		It's about a government project, apparently called Magic Lantern.
		And the way I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong, is that this is a government-originated virus which, once it enters your computer, would be capable of relaying keystroke by keystroke.
		Every key you hit would appear on a government computer if they wanted it to.
		Is that real?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I believe so.
		In fact, if you have a credit card and you have probably between $50 and $100, you can order these computer wiretaps, if you will, keystroke loggers from the Internet.
		And people install this on their spouse's computer or their girlfriend or boyfriend's computer, their employee's computer, maybe even their employer's computer.
		And I always thought to myself, someone with enough time and a credit card on the Internet could simply install these programs.
		I think they're called Spectre and eBlaster and WinWhatware.
		There's several of them out there.
		And go to the Kinko's copiers.
		How many people use the computers over there?
		And just install keystroke loggers on all their computers.
		Go to the airports in the Internet kiosks and install keystroke monitors on their computers that just email everything to some dead drop somewhere on the internet.
		So this technology is really what they call Trojan horse technology.
		That's where a program that appears to be something useful, like a game, a new spreadsheet program, some sort of utility if you're a ham, maybe something that reads Morse code.
		And what an intruder will do is they'll basically bind a malicious program to something that appears to be legitimate.
		And then they'll send it to the target through different means.
		And then when the target runs that program or installs it, the other program runs too.
		Yeah, what it does is the other secret program that the user is not aware of runs, and it could open, basically put essentially a computer wiretap on their own.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, I fully understand that there's a big press to get the terrorists and that there are extraordinary means being exercised right now.
		But this magic lantern, I mean, it's a virus.
		So that means unknowingly it would plant itself in computers, private computers, all over the country, and they could literally sit there and watch every single thing you type?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Well, what it would do is it would email or somehow send the information either through what they call FTP, which is file transfer protocol, or it would email keystrokes, screenshots, or anything to, I guess, to some dead drop who knows if it would be at a federal location or where it would be.
		And it's very simple technology, and the FBI is already, they already have other tools.
		They have Carnivore.
		You've heard of Echelon.
		What they're doing is they're taking this 10 to 15-year-old hacker technology of developing a Trojan horse.
		It's really not termed a virus.
		And it's scary.
		And what's really scary about this is if the antivirus companies out there, like Norton, McAfee, and Symantec, They have publicly stated that if the FBI contacts them, they will not add that signature into their database.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know, but the opposite of that is the FBI said they have the authority to order them to not pursue that particular virus.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		So what happens if you have somebody that is very computer literate that detects this Trojan and then simply modifies it and they wiretap the government, let's say.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		And then they're monitoring the government using their own tools.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well then, Kevin, like you, they go to jail.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, what happens if it's foreign adversaries?
		What happens if it's, you know, I mean, this is a stretch of the Taliban.
		You know, that, you know, I don't think they're technologically able.
		You know, I guess, you know, money can buy talent, depending on their resources.
		But what this, you know, the problem is there's a high potential for abuse.
		This Trojan horse, if you will, could simply be discovered, modified slightly, and it could be used by common folk to install computer wiretaps on anyone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that you could turn it on them.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long has it been since you've had the opportunity to be free with a modern computer?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, the last time that I actually was interesting, like I said earlier in the program, I was in custody for about four and a half years before going to trial.
		And a lot had to do with the problem with my attorney not being able to represent me because he didn't have a good understanding of the discovery, the evidence in the case.
		So we were going back and forth for years because the government didn't want to print out the information.
		And this information resided on, was apparently like 11 gigabytes of data, which is huge.
		It could fill up a library.
		And, you know, because they just take everything, and it could be MP3 files, you know, just part of the evidence.
		And they refused to print it.
		And they said, you know, when my attorney said, well, listen, you know, what I'll do is we'll take a laptop into the Metropolitan Detention Center in Los Angeles, and we'll go into the visiting room and let my client go, you know, let us go through the evidence, and that way he could explain what it is, because my attorney wasn't, you know, computer knowledgeable.
		And the government said, you know, Your Honor, we let Mr. Mitnick have access to a computer in jail.
		He'll engineer an escape, and at least you're giving him the ability to hack into other computers from jail.
		We can't do this.
		And when my attorney advised the judge that there's no network, there's no modem.
		The government still claimed that I can still do such things.
		And of course, the judge believed the government.
		And so eventually, after years of going back and forth, I was finally able to get access to a laptop while in custody to go through this information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it must have been a very difficult defense because you do have the right to face your accuser.
		You're supposed to in a court of law when you've been charged with something.
		You're supposed to be able to directly face your accuser.
		In this case, that would have to include the material that you were accused of stealing.
		So how do they press the case against you without simply?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, technically, under the rules of discovery, your attorney, you know, they just give the evidence to your attorney and say, well, go for it.
		And the problem is my attorney had no understanding of the evidence and could not, you know, Well, my attorney thought that would have been me.
		And a lot of computer experts in the industry shied away from the case because of the negative high profile of the case, because of false rumors and information being written about me and the mainstream media, which started from the New York Times, is what happened is a lot of people in industry didn't really want to get involved in the case because they would essentially be working against the government's interests, if you will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you had a laptop.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was a laptop.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		It had Windows 95 on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		95.
		All right.
		Well, now here we are.
		We've got 2 gigahertz plus machines, incredible computers, and you can't get near them.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That must be killing you.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, it makes it difficult because in today's society, I don't even think you can go to school without having a computer available to do your work on.
		When I was hosting my talk radio show, I had to depend on a lot of other people to help me to print out the research because the show was basically about the Internet.
		So imagine doing a radio show on the Internet but not being able to use a computer.
		That's hard to do.
		You have to chuckle, you know, because, but I did it.
		I was, you know, I was persistent enough, and I think it went well.
		And I just had to read a lot of paper, killed a lot of trees.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But isn't it just killing you not to be able to participate?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you hear about these incredible things going on, and they are incredible right now, no question about it.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's fantastic.
		I mean, how technology is advancing, you know, computer technology, you know, machines are getting faster.
		Software is becoming more innovative.
		I'm excited.
		You know, I'm looking at it.
		I have a year to go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sitting here watching a computer right now and getting questions from all over the country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Debur-American Arkansas asks, Kevin, as a security expert, why not hire a mouse to watch your cheese?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're going to get people that have that viewpoint that why hire the hacker, if you will.
		And what my point's always been is hackers have practical experience.
		They don't come from a university with, they don't have an MCSE.
		These are a certification.
		They know the weaknesses in the systems.
		They know how to get around and they would be best able to help industry, government, and even individuals protect themselves.
		But then again, you have to look at what the liability is.
		And I think when you're looking at the liability, you have to look into the intent and what the person has done in the past.
		Has this person wrote a virus and tried to attack the world?
		Has this person embezzled what?
unidentified		I'm sorry?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you?
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have never written a virus?
unidentified		No.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		That's something I would consider destructive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You never even wrote a virus and then didn't send it.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You never wrote one for fun?
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then just sort of hovered your finger above enter.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		The enter key?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		No.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		You know, again, you know, I think, you know, how I divide the classes here is between malicious and mischievous.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you wanted to write a virus, could you write a good one?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I believe I could.
		I'd have to brush up a little bit on my programming skills since I haven't programmed in years, but I understand the concepts.
		And if I set out to do it, I could do it.
		Would I do it?
		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much of your hacking was social engineering hacking versus hardcore sitting there trying to cramp out the password?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, a lot of it was a combination.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		For those that don't know, social engineering is basically using deception and pretexting and what private investigators call gagging to convince people the human element has access to computers to give up information or to do something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Get next to a secretary and get a password, whatever.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Right, but it's really not that simple, just simply calling up a secretary.
		I mean, it gets to be a real, it becomes like a real confidence game.
		But in my attacks, it was largely a combination of both technical and social engineering.
		But in the social engineering, I was pretty much maybe 60 to 80% in the attacks that I've done.
		But also you'd have to use your technical skills to what they call elevate your privileges.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		60 to 80% was social engineering.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, in a combination.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right.
		Hold it right there.
		We'll be right back.
		Bottom of the hour.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		Hey, lights, look at me.
		I can see the greener sky You can jump me, jump me out of my world I won't stop it Suddenly, I just won't stop.
		Cause I have a green one finding that you love the beauty of me.
		And I feel a carer.
		Then you better be wearer Music Mississippi, in the middle of this dry spell.
		Feeling ridiculous up high.
		Mama dancing with a baby on her shoulder.
		The sun is setting light, my lessons in the sky.
		Listen, we haven't knew anything.
		You're longing for Black Bell, but it's not needed for a smile.
		Black bell, and we're like a small summer sky.
		A new region that I'll bring up to me.
		Black Love.
		Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The world's most infamous hacker.
		That would be another way to phrase it.
		Kevin Mittnick is here, and he's a pretty animated guy.
		We'll see what else we can get as we continue.
unidentified		Stay right where you are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, Kevin Mittick.
		Kevin, this is Christmas time, just before Christmas, and everybody in the world tired of going to malls.
		I'm one of them.
		I hate it.
		I can't stand shopping.
		I'm not a born shopper.
		I was born to tinker and play, not shop.
		But you've got to do it.
		And a lot of people are ordering, you know, I'm sitting here talking to myself.
		Somewhere I lost Kevin.
		I just looked down the lights off.
		So I better hold my little speech, huh?
unidentified		Let me see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where do I have the number?
unidentified		Hey, I wonder if we were hacked.
unidentified		Oh, God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've got it here.
		All right, let me try and re-dial Kevin.
		I wonder if somebody decided that our conversation was going in places where it shouldn't go.
		That's interesting.
		I just found out I was talking to myself and all of you, of course.
		Kevin, are you there?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We got hacked off somehow.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Oh, somebody's hacking the phone company switching parump.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know what happened.
		Anyway, maybe we touched on something they didn't know.
		Here was my little speech.
		It's Christmas time.
		It's almost Christmas, and people are sick of malls.
		I wasn't born to shop at all.
		I was born to tinker and play, and that's what I do.
		I don't shop.
		I avoid it like the plague.
		And so everybody's doing their shopping, or a lot of people are on the internet.
		You go to these websites to order something for somebody.
		It's so easy.
		It's so easy to shop on the internet.
		And you get this little lock symbol when you get into the portion where you're buying, actually buying something, and that indicates you're on a secure server.
		And so you give out your credit card information and God knows what, all your information.
		And people are under the impression that that information is secure and safe once they see that little lock symbol.
		True or false?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, it depends.
		What that little lock symbol really indicates is when you're sending your financial information, such as your credit card number, to a website, while that information is being transmitted, it's encrypted.
		It's scrambled.
		So somebody that's monitoring any type of communications going between those two points will just see gibberish.
		Now, the problem is most of these websites out there, it really depends who the e-commerce site belongs to, is that they store this financial information in the clear.
		So what happens is when computer intruders are able to break into these companies, like I think CD Universe was one, Egghead, what happens is they get access to the entire store.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they're not actually getting the information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As you're transmitting it, they're getting it where it's being stored.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Exactly, because a lot of these e-commerce sites do not securely encrypt the information when it sits on their side.
		And that's what makes it vulnerable.
		But really, you have to ask yourself, I mean, if somebody were to obtain just your credit card number, and we're not talking about health-related information and such, what is the harm?
		Okay, somebody might defraud the credit card company, but at the end of the day, you may be responsible for up to 50 bucks.
		But the same thing holds true when you're going to a brick-and-mortar store.
		You go into May Company or you go into the Gap, for example, and you use your credit card there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so there's no real difference, and they store the information in the same way, which may or may not be as protected.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		You can walk into a brick-and-mortar store, use your credit card, and then some intruder hacks into that company's internal network from the Internet, let's say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		They still can get your credit card number, even though you never shopped online.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So really, it wouldn't matter whether you walked into a store and used the credit card or did it over the internet.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, it really depends.
		It really depends how each of these companies set up their computer network.
		But it's true.
		A lot of the brick-and-mortars company have links to the Internet from their internal network, and that is accessible sometimes through the Internet.
		So the same problem takes place.
		The problem, I think, really comes to play is when people, when their debit cards are compromised, because then they simply, your account could be drained of its money, and you could have outstanding checks that haven't been cashed yet, and it can really cause you a headache.
		And I think the federal rules with respect to credit cards or debit cards are a little bit different, so it might be more difficult to recover your funds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much of that kind of theft is going on now?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I think a lot of it.
		I think there was, from what I read, there was a group of Russian hackers out of the Ukraine that were compromising a lot of e-commerce sites that had problems with Microsoft's Internet information server and were able to literally steal thousands upon thousands of credit cards.
		And they were obviously going to sell these credit cards to some brokers and eventually they would have been abused.
		And I guess you really need to look at your credit card statement when you get it in the mail to make sure there's no unauthorized charges.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In fact, a lot of people don't.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		In fact, I was with a guy in custody at the MDC since I think I was the longest inmate there as a pretrial detainee.
		And this guy was arrested for committing some sort of fraud where thousands upon thousands of people were affected, and they would simply have a charge on their credit card for like $19.95.
		But it ended up being fraudulently billed to thousands of people's credit cards.
		And the guy literally made hundreds of thousands of dollars.
		I don't really know the details of the case.
		But it was because most people don't really pay attention.
		So it's really time to pay attention to the truth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's the truth.
		You get your bill, and you sort of glance over it, and something $19.95 you might not even notice.
		You just sign it, you pay the bill.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
		All right.
		Eric near Boston wants to ask a question you might not be able to answer.
		Please ask Kevin what resources he would suggest for those interested in learning how to hack.
		You might want to consider whether you want to answer that.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's not a negative thing to learn how to hack.
		It depends if you're labeling hacking as doing something illegal, if you're interested in computer security to protect yourself or to protect others, then you have to learn basically the skill of hacking.
		And there's several books out there that are, I believe it's Maximum Security, there's Hacking Exposed, there's several different books out there.
		And there's also websites that are out there like Packet Storm Security is a big one.
		There's Security Focus.
		I mean, there's a lot of different resources out there.
		A lot of people ask me that question, like, where do I start?
		I want to learn how to do it.
		And it's really, it's not like you can explain the steps of tying a shoe, if you will.
		It's kind of, you know, the process is really a learning process that takes time and experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you almost have to be manic about it, don't you?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I was visioned.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was, you know, I stayed up all night a lot of times.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I'd been up 4 or 5 in the morning.
		Oh, had trouble getting up for work the next day because I spent so much time on the computer.
		But I do want to mention one thing.
		Remember when we were talking about Magic Lantern before we went to break?
		Did you know that it would also give the law enforcement agency or the intelligence agency, think about this, they could use that program to turn on your webcam, like if you have a camera, and watch what's happening in your room.
		And how about your microphone on your computer?
		A lot of people have mics because they go to these chat rooms, audio chat rooms.
		And imagine just being able to turn on your mic to listen on what's happening in the room.
		It's really creepy type stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got three webcams looking at me right now, but they're not on.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Have you read the book 1984?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't think they're on.
		That'd be freaky.
		Hey, oh, you're right.
		And a lot of people have microphones, so plugged into sound cards.
		You're saying there'd be remote ways to turn that on?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		There's Trojan horse programs that are available out there that have that functionality where you could open the target CD drive, have their windows disappear, turn on their camera, turn on their microphone.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		And those capabilities are there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When your supervised release time ends, are you going to go out and buy the biggest, baddest, fastest computer you can find?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I'll probably pick one of the top-of-the-line notebook or laptop computers that probably would be the fastest on the market.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I'd probably go for something like a notebook computer like a Sony Vio or an IBM ThinkPad or a Toshiba laptop.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And no doubt a broadband connection.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no doubt.
		When I was using a motor mart, the speed at the time, I mean, this is going to shock you a little bit, was 28.8.
		I mean, you can download a format file in a second these days.
		I'm jealous.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're inviting me over?
		I don't think I'm allowed to do that, Emma.
		I can watch you type.
		Are you allowed to watch somebody else on a community?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, certainly.
		I could stand behind anyone that's on the internet.
		I can be right there and even say, hey, check out freekevin.com or check out yahoo.com.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, as long as I'm not typing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As long as your finger doesn't touch the keyboard.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		You can't let the fingers do the walking, as they say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You couldn't really tell somebody else.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you might be able to tell them to visit a website, but you couldn't instruct them in any ways of doing anything that It would obviously, there's a condition of supervised release that prevents me from using people as a proxy to do something on my behalf.
		And it was difficult because it really got close to the line there, especially when my producer, you know, I would need them to look for certain information.
		And of course, I'd have to direct that person, you know, I need this, I need that.
		And that's kind of almost, but it's not to the point of where, hey, type this key, type that key.
		You know, it was more of, I need this particular information, go after it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Somebody in Michigan just fast-blasted me on the computer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They just put a black sock over their webcam.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Beware.
		And it's important.
		One of the one thing that people can do is to check to see if there's a known Trojan horse on their computer is there's a software called the Cleaner that you can find on the internet.
		I think they give you a free 30-day trial.
		And it's a piece of software that's been highly regarded as being able to detect Trojans.
		The problem with it is it uses the same technology to detect viruses and worms is it's called signature-based.
		So the AV company, the antivirus company, or their lab, they find what they call malware, malicious software, if you will, and they develop a signature and then they update their database.
		So users are supposed to, on a frequent basis, update their definitions file.
		And what it does is it will look for that particular pattern.
		It will scan all the different executable files on your computer and your DLL files, looking for that particular pattern and identify it as a known worm or a known virus.
		That's the same technology these Trojan horse scanners are using as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John in Denver wishes me to ask you the following.
		How do you feel about John Markov, is it, who wrote the newspaper article about you and something about a movie he's asking about that was somehow successfully blocked from even being distributed.
		A movie about you, is that?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was called Takedown.
		It was a movie that was based on this book Takedown that John Markov wrote.
		With my respect to my feelings on John Markov, I think he's largely responsible for creating the myth of Kevin Mitnick.
		That's the gentleman that wrote the NORAD story, that I broke into NORAD, that I wiretapped the FBI, that I planted false news story about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what about this movie, Takedown?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What happened?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, what ended up happening is while I was in custody, they shot the film.
		Skeet All Rick played me, and there was some other, I guess, unknown actors in the movie.
		And they basically accepted the version or the book, Takedown, as their storyline.
		But what ended up happening is the initial script that was released portrayed me as like the Hannibal Lecter of computer hacking.
		It was just completely out of, portrayed me as a person that I'm not, depicted me doing things that I never did.
		And there was an outcry from pretty much the hacker community.
		And the same grassroots movement that was established to help get me out of custody, if you will, they picketed Merrimacks was the company behind the feature film.
		And what eventually happened is they started, you know, they did some script changes, I guess, based on the pressure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you ever seen a copy?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I did.
		In fact, what ended up happening is I settled, I was going to go after Meramex for libel.
		And what ended up happening is we settled a lawsuit.
		And I can't really, you know, I'm not at liberty to discuss the terms of the lawsuit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, that's fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's fine.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		But what ended up happening at the end of the day, which was interesting, is the movie producers or the writers actually stole material from another book that was written about me called The Fugitive Game.
		And they used this material without that author's permission, and then they were sued a second time.
		So at the end of the day, the movie was never released in the United States.
		It was just released over, I believe, not domestically, but overseas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have a copy of the movie?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I have one of the initial copies, not the final release, because that was under the terms of the agreement that I'd be able to view it.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		And I saw it and I was very upset with it because, again, it was based on hyperbole, sensationalism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		And it just...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're saying there's really no Hannibal lecture within you, not of hacking.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		No.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		No, I would actually characterize myself as a pretty nice guy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The mother Teresa of hacking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Something in between there.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, I would characterize myself as definitely a non-malicious fellow.
		I was more mischievous.
		I love pulling pranks.
		In fact, when I was a kid, we figured out how we can intercept directory assistance.
		So when customers of the phone company would call directory assistance for Rhode Island, we would get some of the spillage.
		So when, at a certain time, we were able to intercept calls.
		So when they would come into us, we'd go, you know, what city?
		And the customer would go, oh, Providence.
		And we'd say, okay, the name, and they'd give us the name.
		And we'd say, okay, that number is 555-315-27.
unidentified		What?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		555-315-27?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how do I dial a half?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, don't you have that new phone with the half on it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then I suppose they'd turn around, call the phone company, and ask for that.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Oh, the phone company disabled that quite quickly.
		In fact, especially when their customers were queried, excuse me, sir, do you have a white page?
		And they would say yes, and then we'd say, well, why are you calling us?
unidentified		Look it up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, the phone company has very, just no sense of humor about this kind of thing at all.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		That is very true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the phone company, well, at least the old, good, good old AT ⁇ T, boy, were they powerful.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I mean, before deregulation in 1984.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They were like a government within a government.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They were incredible.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		And it's kind of funny to say that, you know, AT ⁇ T or the phone network was kind of like the hacker playground before the internet.
		It was, how I consider hacking also is like, you think about Star Trek, you know, going where no man has gone before, exploring space.
		Well, in the hacker mindset, it's the network, you know, is the universe, and you're exploring.
		Not to do dastardly deeds, but because you're interested.
		How do things work?
		What's out there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it is like the universe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is a universe.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Now it's cyberspace.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but that is a universe within a universe.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		A dimension.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's one way to think about it.
		Hold it right there, Kevin.
		We'll come back and take...
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
		Hold it right there.
		Kevin Mitnick is my guest.
		I'm Arbell from the high desert.
unidentified		This.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Coast to Coast AM in the nighttime.
unidentified		It don't come easy.
		You know it don't come easy.
		It don't come easy.
		You know it don't come easy.
		It don't make you, you want to do it.
		And you know it don't come easy.
		You don't have to shout or leave the vows.
		You can even play them easy.
		Forget about the past.
		I know it don't come easy.
		Reachart Bell in the Kingdom of Nye.
		From west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		Or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A universe within a universe.
		That's an interesting way to think about the Internet, and that's an accurate way to think about the Internet.
		Kevin Mitnick, one of the most infamous or the most infamous hacker in all of history, or famous, depending on your point of view, Nick.
		Really is point of view, too.
		Remember one man's terrorist and all that sort of thing?
		It's another man's patriot.
unidentified		Of course, the government didn't look at that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, anyway, we'll be right back.
		Back now to Kevin Bitnick.
		Kevin, welcome back.
		One quickie from a fellow ham.
		Now, I don't know whether this is myth or legend, but it is said among hams, Kevin, that early in your career, you were known to go freaking with the auto patch down in Glendale, the 147.1.2 repeater, back in, say, about 1981 or thereabouts.
		You didn't do that, did you?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, I used the auto patch.
		I didn't freak the auto patch.
		I used to be a heavy auto patch user on that repeater.
		But that was years ago, my God.
unidentified		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I have people with long memories.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you didn't call Pakistan and stuff?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		No.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Not at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Hey, but I do have to ask you a question.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		When you're talking about telephones, do you subscribe to the Caller ID service?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do indeed.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		You do.
		Well, did you know that, in fact, I'd like to give you a quick demo.
		Did you know, I mean, usually when somebody calls you and you see their name and number display on your caller ID, you assume that that is the person calling you, don't you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Would you be surprised to know that there's ways, you know, there's secret ways that that system could be manipulated to display any name and number that the person would want?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I didn't know that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I didn't.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'd have to give you a quick demonstration.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Are you interested?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, hold on a minute.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, hold on, hold on one second.
unidentified		Hold on.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		One second.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't have caller ID on this line.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		No, I know.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Hold on one second.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		I don't know if we should be doing this.
		I'm not sure what...
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Hold on one second, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm holding.
unidentified		Sir, I don't know.
		I wonder what he's doing.
		Kevin?
		Kevin?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Did you get it on your caller ID?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, I just told you I don't have caller ID.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
		I'm sorry.
		I called on a number that I thought you'd have caller ID on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Um do you have my private number?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You do?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How the hell did you get well?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't want to know.
unidentified		I got it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, she got it.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		She got it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Ask her to tell you what number was on her.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got the number on here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm looking at it right now.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Does it give the name?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't give a name, but the number ends in 6.5.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Right.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		In fact, if you were in California, it would actually have displayed on your caller ID FBI USG.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold on a second.
unidentified		USG.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		She says it says USG FBI.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and if you call that number, it's the FBI Los Angeles office.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		And I can tell you at their office.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How did you, how, oh, my God.
unidentified		So the middle of the story, you never believe that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kevin, you're not supposed to be doing stuff like that.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		No, this is perfectly legal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
		The way this is done, it is perfectly 100% legal.
		I'll say certainly when I've demonstrated it to you.
		But it really makes you think that the next time you receive a telephone call, it may or may not be the person whose number or name is on your display.
		It's pretty scary stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I just don't know how to thank you for that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now I won't sleep well.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		We were considering it should have been the U.S. FBI or it should have been the White House.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		We weren't sure that the White House would have displayed properly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		U.S. GFBI, oh, God.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I thought you'd get a kick out of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		It kicked me all right.
		First time caller line.
		You're on the air with Kevin Mitnik.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		I have a question for Kevin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I just want to say great show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		I was wondering if you can elaborate at all on if you think that the government gave you a hard time in this case due more to the fact of what you found maybe about what the government was doing as opposed to some of the amount of money that they say that you I think it was a mix.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I think the government fully well knew that the damages didn't really get anywhere near the $300 million or in my plea agreement I had to agree that the damages were between $5 and $10 million.
		But that was really, I just agreed to the number to settle the case that happens consistently.
		But I also do believe that the government came down pretty hard on me because of the potential I had and also because of some information that I'm not really at liberty to discuss, especially on a radio show.
unidentified		I appreciate that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there ever going to be a time, you know, after X number of years go by when you can talk about this information, or is this the kind of stuff you've got to take to your grave if you want to stay out of jail?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, not really.
		The jail would be nice to the potential here.
		And the bottom line is I'd actually be frightened even to talk about it or to reveal it because I don't know what would happen to me.
		And so it's best, I really think, is to really keep my mouth shut.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, how was jail?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it was a lovely experience, Club Fed.
		No, I mean, it was...
		No.
		Again, I was in pretrial detention for about four and a half years.
		And when you're in pretrial detention, you have your rights, you know, because you're not convicted of a crime, but at the same time, you have the least privileges.
		So it was a very unpleasant experience that I want my enemies to experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That bad.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		That bad.
		Again, it wasn't like you see on television of a state facility.
		There wasn't where I didn't feel unsafe, like worried I was going to get assaulted or something along those lines.
		But again, it's definitely not a pleasant place.
		Either way, and when you go to a federal institution, I guess a good analogy would be it's like you're in the service.
		You basically belong to the federal institution and you can't leave and it's like, exactly, like you're in the service, so to speak, with no liberty.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you form friendships?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Certainly.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Over years, I did form friendships, but I don't associate with any of the people that I formed friendships with while on the inside.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not allowed to, huh?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		You're not allowed to associate.
		A standard condition of release is you can't associate with anyone that's been convicted of a felony.
		But the word associate is really difficult to define because, again, there's cases where convicted felons are working with convicted felons.
		So are you calling that association or are you calling it working?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Basically, if they want you, they can get you.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		What I learned from my case, Art, is the federal government has extreme powers.
		and I hate to keep harping on my case because I'm sure there's much more interesting stuff to talk about.
		But it really bothered me because the court system or the judicial system, based on fear and hyperbole, turned a blind eye to certain constitutional rights I felt that I had.
		And this was not just my personal feelings.
		These were the feelings of my attorney.
		For example, I was the only defendant in U.S. history, according to my defense team, that was held without a bail hearing.
		Normally, when you're arrested for commission of, you're accused of a crime, you're entitled to have a hearing to determine whether there's a condition or not.
unidentified		Absolutely.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		A condition or a combination of conditions that will reasonably assure your presence or that you're not endangered to the community.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Depends on what basis did you not get one?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		The judge just basically said, I'm not giving him a hearing.
		We took it all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court twice.
		And the first time, Sandra Day O'Connor denied the petition, and we petitioned John Paul Stevens, and he referred it to the full court.
		But apparently, I didn't get the vote for the court to hear it.
		Because to get the Supreme Court to hear a case, it has to be pretty novel.
		But to hold a man in pretrial detention for four and a half years and not have a bail hearing, I thought would be pretty novel.
		But apparently the justices didn't seem believe that as well.
		So I guess that's what happens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Kevin Mitnick.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello there.
unidentified		Oh, this is Garf.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Garf?
		Oh, Garf.
		I did another show.
		How long ago was it, Garf?
unidentified		It must have been three, maybe four years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Three or four years ago with some hackers, and Garf was one of them and is very well known on the net.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Garf.
unidentified		Hi.
		I remember I saw you, what was it, two years ago at, who was it, Flea's House?
		Oh, July.
		Remember that?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I remember that, but I don't rec I can't put a face to the name.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I apologize.
unidentified		Well, we'll have to talk sometime else about that.
		That was loads of fun.
		There was a couple years ago, there was just this gigantic lock party of a 4th of July party, and pretty much anyone, it was anyone who wasn't a felon, by the way, but was there.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		What I thought was interesting is an FBI agent actually attended the party, and he was, I guess he worked in counterintelligence, no counter-terrorism for the FBI's Los Angeles office, and he was actually at the party.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He was out in the party.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I was introduced to him later on in the party, and it was kind of awkward, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Garf, it sounds like you're on an internet phone, are you?
unidentified		No, I'm on my cell phone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Cell phone, okay.
unidentified		And, well.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		So what's your question, Garf?
unidentified		Mainly just saying hi.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, hi back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This gets close to association, so we'll cut it off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Kevin Mitnick.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hello there.
		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you're on the air.
unidentified		Oh, I didn't even.
unidentified		Usually you hear that noise.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No noise.
		You're just on the air, sir, going like that.
		Where are you calling from?
unidentified		I'm calling from, well, East.
		I don't want to say where because somebody told me something, and I see this person every day.
		And just in case it's true, I don't want to.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, we did get your number through caller ID, right?
unidentified		Yeah, I heard.
		You got my FBI office.
		Six-five, that's my...
		I'm not even saying that because, geez, I don't know who's listening.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Somebody's listening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
unidentified		No, my question is about email.
unidentified		With like, you know, Hotmail, all that stuff.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Somebody was telling me, I guess it's two questions.
		First, is this true?
		Second, is it a way to protect yourself from it?
		What this guy told me was, like, let's say I sent an email message to you, right, at like kevin at hotmail.com, right?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		He said that for my message to get into your inbox, it actually has to kind of knock at the door and ask for the password to get in.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Is that true?
		I don't think so.
		He usually does it.
		We'll go to what they call, it will use a simple mail transfer protocol.
		And I don't believe that protocol has to authenticate at all.
		In fact, that's what makes it so easy to spoof email messages because you simply can connect to any what they call an SMTP port on a particular server that has that service.
		And by typing the appropriate commands, you could make it appear that that message appeared to come from anywhere in the world.
unidentified		Okay, yes.
unidentified		What he was saying is that with the right command, you could basically ask for that person's password and anything.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I think that's a myth.
		And also to retrieve mail is another case.
		That's where they're using the post office protocol, and that's where you have to authenticate yourself with a username and password.
unidentified		So he's full of it then, basically.
unidentified		I mean, or is there a way to do that, just not like he said?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		There's always ways of obtaining people's passwords, especially for Yahoo and Hotmay.
		A lot of people, from what I hear, maybe choose good passwords, but they choose easy hints.
		So what it will allow an attacker to do is change their password.
		Like they'll choose a hint like their mother's maiden name or their dog's name or something that some personal identifier that could be obtained through some diligent research.
unidentified		Oh, but there's no like magic way to do it, though, like this guy was saying.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		Okay, that's cool.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		At least not that I know of.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		And I don't use Hotmail or Yahoo.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the problems is that there's a lot of stuff, a lot of myth running around the Internet.
		There's a lot of truth, of course, running around as well.
		But half of it is pure garbage.
		Fears and things that people say can be done.
		It's just paranoid garbage, right?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and then there's the issue with cookies.
		You know, cookies are little small text files that your browser places on your computer so it can kind of keep track where you are on that website.
		And some of these sites will deposit a cookie on your computer, and when you go back to that website, if it sends that cookie, it will assume that you're already authenticated, that you already identified you.
		And if an outsider is able to get that cookie from your computer, or steal your cookie, if you will, then they could masquerade as you.
		But that all depends on the programming of the different websites that are out there.
		Depends on the security design.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about laws?
		Now, newspapers and broadcasters are responsible for defamation and things said that would be legally a problem.
		But on the Internet...
		You can say anything about anybody, and there is no apparent recourse.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		That's not necessarily true, Art, because I have a friend and a colleague that's an attorney, and he handles a lot of these cases where companies are insulted or false information is posted on Yahoo message boards regarding the financial position of the company or false rumors.
		And a lot of these companies subpoena Yahoo and track the Internet service provider and then subpoena the ISP and find out who the user is and then try to identify them if they're an employee or not.
		If they're an employee, they get canned.
		And if they're not an employee, they have a lawsuit filed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But a lot of it's new law.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's just forming law, right, regarding the Internet.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		But the law is usually behind when it comes to technology.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		And unfortunately, I'm not really familiar with the new state statutes regarding this type of torrent or civil offense, if you will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the problem is, as you pointed out early on, there are not a lot of, now perhaps today that's changing, but there were not a lot of attorneys familiar with the Internet at all.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		And they would throw up their hands and they'd say, sorry, the attorneys skilled in law, and that's where they've dedicated their experience and knowledge.
		And what they usually do is they depend on expert witnesses to consult with experts on computer-related matters.
		In fact, there's this case going on in Las Vegas where this gentleman runs an escort service, if you will, and he's having problems with his competitors essentially diverting his phone calls to themselves.
		In other words, stealing his business by manipulating the phone service.
		And I'm consulting with him now to try to get to the bottom of it to identify how it's happening, how to stop it, and whether or not the company that provides the service is responsible for some sort of security flaw.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're doing a lot of work like that?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to ask how you're supporting yourself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, the FBI or the federal government does not stop you from doing this kind of work.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, get this.
		I have a condition of release that says I can't act as an advisor or consultant to anyone that uses a computer.
		What?
unidentified		Yes.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Without getting permission from the government.
		So essentially, I can't do any type of employment or engage in any type of employment opportunity without permission of the government.
		In fact, it really became an issue a year ago when I was being offered positions writing articles and doing a lot of public speaking on computer security issues.
		And the government, the probation department, interpreted my condition of supervised release, meaning I can't speak about or write about technology that it's prohibited on.
		And what I ended up having to do was hire an attorney, and we had to go back to court to challenge this because it was really a First Amendment issue.
		And you won?
		The funny thing is, is the judge never ruled one way or the other.
		What ended up basically happening is she said she doesn't want to see me or in her courtroom again and to work it out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe you ought to just give up, throw up your hands, and get a GS rating and, you know, go to work for the government.
unidentified		Well, that's always a possibility.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Hold on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kevin Mitnick is my guest from the high desert.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm Art Bell, and this, of course, is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		This.
		Sweet dreams are made of the earth.
		When minds do this agree, I travel the world and the seventies.
		Everybody is looking for something.
		Some of them want to use you.
		Some of them want to get used by you.
		Some of them want to abuse you.
		Some of them want to be abused.
		Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest is Kevin Mitnick, who is not Hannibal Lecter, and he'll be back in a moment.
		Back down to Kevin Mitnick.
		Kevin, you know, I was only half joking really at the bottom of the hour.
		I said, why not throw up your hands, get a GS rating, and go to work for the government?
		You said, well, maybe.
		That's a maybe, huh?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, they haven't given me an offer yet, and plus he can actually make more money in the private sector.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you like an offer?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, could you work for them after what you've been through?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I'd rather not work for the Department of Justice because I don't agree with some of the way they handle certain things, but any other parts of the government is fine by me.
		And I haven't usually, when they make somebody an example, because I'm really the hacker poster boy, if you will, they usually can't do it because they can't say face.
		So I don't expect it to happen.
		And if it did, I think it would be kept very, very quiet.
		You know, Art, you never know.
		I could be working for them now.
		I just can't tell you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I was going to ask about that.
		And that is absolutely true, isn't it?
		I hadn't even thought about that.
		You wouldn't be able to tell me a word about that, would you?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Probably not.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		But the truth of the matter is I'm not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what's that worth now, right?
		All right.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Kevin Mitnick.
		Hi.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Good morning, Kevin.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		And good morning to you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Morning, sir.
unidentified		Kevin, is it just a SkyFi movie premise, or do you think it possible a computer mainframe of some kind could achieve self-awareness?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		You're talking about artificial intelligence?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To the degree of self-awareness.
		That might be a little more than just basic artificial intelligence.
		To the point of self-awareness is what he's asking.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Do I think it's possible?
unidentified		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's the question.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Kind of really never gave much thought to it.
		Yeah, I don't know how to answer that question.
		Do I think it's possible in the future that technology will advance where it could be self-aware?
		If I were to make a bet on it, I would bet yes, but I'm just making a guesstimate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, if speed continues to increase the way it is.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, War's law.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		You know, everything's doubling every 18 months.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you think they're going to hit a big wall or there's going to be a big jump?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		But does speed necessarily mean intelligence?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it might.
		It might.
		Speed and storage.
		Speed and storage.
		Those two things.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, storage is important.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I believe they're getting up into terabytes now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		And so at some point, I mean, we don't understand a whole lot about the human brain, but we understand it's a supercomputer in some ways.
		And so at some point...
		Yeah, a lot sooner than we thought we were going to, as a matter of fact.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Kevin Mitnick.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		How are you doing, Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		Leo in Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Merry Christmas.
		Happy New Year.
		Thank you.
		West America.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Near Microsoft.
unidentified		Yeah, right down.
unidentified		It's out in Redmond.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I used to live in Seattle for a short time, Leo.
unidentified		Yeah, I'm in Ballard.
		A little bit of ways.
		You're creeping me out, Kevin.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I am.
unidentified		Yeah, I think you know way too much.
unidentified		Well, too much for me, anyhow.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I can't comment on that.
unidentified		There you go.
unidentified		I'm curious if you have kids.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		No.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I divorced and I never had children.
unidentified		So, do you know, because you know so much, are you planning on not having kids?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		No, no, I just got to find the right lady.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		Have a good night.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Hey, thank you for calling.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and if you did have children, how would you instruct them with regard to technology?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think a big problem, you know, well, I guess you're talking about, you know, with hacking.
		What I think is important, what parents need to teach their kids these days is ethics.
		Because when I first got involved in phone freaking and computer hacking, it was encouraged.
		It was encouraged by parents.
		It was encouraged by teachers.
		In fact, one of the first programs that I developed in high school was a program that acted as a login simulator.
		So it tricked the unsuspecting user into entering their username and password, and it would capture it, and it would go ahead and log them into the computer so they wouldn't know the better.
		And the teacher loved the program.
		I got an A on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I see how all this happened to you, Ben.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		So it just, it was encouraged.
		It was okay.
		And then what happened is society changed around me where, you know, computer, this type of behavior became immoral and illegal.
		And back in the days, the late 70s and early 80s, I mean, think about with Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak with the blue boxes.
		They built the Apple Empire.
		Starting with experimenting with the blue box.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, the internal question, would you be a Mac or an IBM type person?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Probably IBM.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		IBM.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, to be honest with you, I'd go Unix-based Linux or something along those lines.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		And probably with the Windows, I'd probably go with Windows 2000 at this point, 6BSO now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		However, I imagine in your present condition, with the conditions, you'd take either one.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I'd take CTM, Art.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Where's my Commodore 64?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I hear you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air with Kevin Mitnick.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Good evening, guys.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, where are you, sir?
unidentified		I'm here in Maui.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maui, Hawaii, all right.
unidentified		I wish I was there.
		Yeah, well, it's nighttime.
		Kevin, I wanted to ask you, you know, you've got such a great, well, frankly, as a you've got a great brand, you know, Kevin Mitnick.
		Do you think when you're over the probation or whatever and you can actually get your hands on machines and start back into coding and things of that nature that you'll go into security, computer security?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's my career plans are actually to become more involved with information security.
		At this present time, I'm doing public speaking.
		I do some consulting.
		But I'm a natural in that area.
unidentified		Well, yes, you're natural, but you've been away from it so long now.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Oh, but I've been keeping up.
unidentified		How do you keep up without?
unidentified		You have a lab experience, that's what I mean.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		A lot of reading, reading, and reading, and a lot of things in information security doesn't change.
		The applications, the OSs change.
		Some of the vulnerabilities associated with the applications and OS changes.
		But there's other vulnerabilities that never seem to change, and that really has to do with a book I'm writing on social engineering.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, you know, Kevin, there are others who would say, but a lot of things don't change, including feathers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, once a hacker, always a hacker.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		And you know what?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, that sounds like something that would come from the prosecutor court.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know, I know.
		That's what I say, though.
		A lot of people do say that sort of thing.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		And imagine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but imagine their fear of turning you loose on by then probably a three gigahertz machine a million times more powerful than what you did, what you did before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, that's how they're going to think, right?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Of course, they'll think recidivism.
		And I understand that, and they can go ahead and think like that, or anyone could think like that, but I know in my heart that I've grown out of this.
		It was fun.
		I did it for the thrill.
		I did it for the challenge.
		I did it for the intellectual curiosity.
		I mean, curiosity was a huge factor.
		And now I can take these same skills that I have and use it to help people protect themselves against security problems.
		Because in today's world, which is a lot different, as you know, Art, from back in the mid-80s or even early 80s, the world has changed with computer security.
		It's a business enabler.
		There was no internet back then.
		It was the ARPANET.
		I don't know if you've used the ARPANET back then, but it was totally different.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What would you change if you could now go back in your life and you could change anything?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What would you change?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Probably a lot of the decisions.
		I've exercised extremely bad judgment in my past, and I would have changed a lot of the decisions I've made.
		And I'm sure I might be in a different place.
		I might have taken another fork in the road, if you will, instead of being interviewed as the most famous hacker on your radio show, I could be running a corporation like Microsoft.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And swimming in money and women and God knows what all.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Fast computers, your last women.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're right.
		It could have gone either way.
		There's no question about it.
		What do you think of Microsoft?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I think they have a lot of security issues that they really need to take a hard look at.
		And I know that for companies to be profitable, they need to rush to market.
		Microsoft products are really heavy on interoperability and functionality.
		And I think they're looking more at the security issues involving their products because I think what it really is is industry response.
		For instance, the Gartner group recently has come out and made a public statement, an analyst with Gartner, that no one should use Microsoft Internet Information Service or Server until Microsoft does a complete rewrite of the code.
		So when you have an organization such as Gartner making such a strong statement, Microsoft has to react.
		They have to build back their customer confidence.
		But don't forget, security is all about a bounce.
		The more security you have, the less functionality you have.
		And I think operating system vendors could really help themselves and help their customers by building in some, you know, like a firewall product into the OS that's turned on by default.
		So the unsuspecting user, you know, the person that goes into Best Buy or Comp USA and doesn't really know much about, you know, is just a novice, plugs in their computer, they're not instantly vulnerable.
		Nowadays, you go ahead and plug in a computer and everything's turned off.
		All the security is turned off and you have to know enough to turn it back on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think it should be the opposite.
		I do agree with you.
		And I'm sure that you're going to find employment in these areas.
		But you've got to admire what Microsoft has done.
		I mean, Microsoft a little while ago was in big trouble with the government.
		They were going to send it to a trust suit, yes.
		But I've always thought, you know what, they're like being punished for being so successful.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		You know, I thought about that too, that people are jealous of Bill Gates.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		And a lot of this has to do with they always have to take down the king of the mountain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		That's exactly right.
		I mean, they were on the wrong side of the federal government.
		Not as wrong as you were, but wrong.
		And they ran into a lot of the same stuff in a lot of ways.
unidentified		They knew too much.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		And then you think about these companies like Oracle that do competitive intelligence and they actually hire PIs to go dig around in Microsoft's garbage cans to be competitive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time callers, area code 776-727-1222.
		Right.
		Wildcard line, you are on the air with Kevin Mente.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Kevin.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		This is Damian and Pomona.
		Remember the 666 guy?
		Do you remember me at all, Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Vaguely, sir.
unidentified		Anyway, hi, how are you doing?
		I had a question for you.
		How long has it been since you've been online, Kev?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I would say 1995.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
unidentified		Well, so do you think what my question is, do you think you'd probably pick it up like bicycle riding again?
unidentified		I mean, do you think you'd have a hard time trying to get back in the loop?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that is a good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, if you were turned loose, how long do you think it would take you to get up to speed?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Oh, not long at all.
		I think the way applications have progressed that it's a lot easier than it was.
		Back in my day, it was the command line.
		It was Unix.
		It was DOS.
		It was Windows 3.1.1.
		And everything has pretty much gotten easier to use.
		And myself, to keep up with technology and especially to do a radio show on the Internet, I had to study the changes in these applications and technology, but I couldn't use a computer to that end.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You can believe that right now the people who prosecuted you and hunted for you are out there listening to this right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there anything you'd like to say to them?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've got to tell you a little story.
		I was in Washington, D.C. a couple weeks ago.
		I was invited to speak on a panel for the Business Software Alliance.
		And on this panel, it was CEO of Symantec, Senator Maria Cantwell.
		It was people that are well respected in the industry.
		So one of the press contacts invited me to the National Press Club because Richard Clark, who is a presidential advisor in cybersecurity, was going to do a talk there.
		And he keynoted right before my panel.
		So I wanted an opportunity to say hello to Mr. Clark.
		So I went to the press club, and lo and behold, Mr. Clark dropped out at the last minute, and guess who substituted in for Mr. Clark?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Couldn't guess.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		My prosecutor.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		So I'm sure the look on his face and the look on my face must have been a Kodak moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It must have been.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		And it was kind of awkward for me because I went up to him and my attitude was, let's bygones be bygones.
		They're done with the case.
		The case is prosecuted.
		He has some unsupervised release.
		But we can put our swords down and just move on.
		They can do what they have to do, and I can work on my career.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you sense the same attitude coming back?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I sense skepticism.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I extended my hand out to this particular person, and they wouldn't even shake my hand, so that was kind of awkward.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a message.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so that's a message.
		We don't trust you when we don't like you.
		But what can I do?
		I could only try to be the person that I can be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what I'm saying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So if you were able to talk to them, which you are right now, because they're listening to you, what would you say to them?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I think they're sleeping.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		They have to get up in the morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Don't be so sure.
		No, I'm serious here.
		I mean, would you say, look, don't worry about me?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'd say basically, look, my hacking career is in the past.
		I want to take my knowledge, my experience, and my background, and work in the information security environment to help people protect themselves against, you know, to help them manage their vulnerabilities because that's what security is all about.
		And rather than I'm taking the posture, you know, that I'm not going to beat them, that I'm going to join them.
		And that's my attitude in today's world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kevin is going to the light.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Kevin Lidnick.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Haven't talked to you in a long time.
unidentified		Glad to have you back.
unidentified		Hi, Kevin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How are you?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Hi, good morning.
unidentified		My name is Joe from Boston.
		I have a two-part question, Art.
		Kevin, I'm a friend of Angressias.
		Is there any way to write to you by tape?
		Some of us would like to get help, because my other part is I, too, was involved, and you're correct.
		We did not try to destroy it.
		I'm being denied a phone for the rest of my life, and I think it's totally unfair what the Justice Department did to me and you.
		I didn't have a good attorney.
		And this is ridiculous.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, we all do things.
unidentified		We're all entitled to a break.
unidentified		I was like, no, is there any way?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		You're not allowed to use a telephone?
unidentified		I'm being denied a phone in my own home for the rest of my life.
		I'm using someone else's phone under my name.
		They won't allow me.
		Verizon's blacklisting me forever.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		That's amazing.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		You must look like you need to leave Canada.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You must have been very bad.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		How about a cell phone?
unidentified		Yeah, I can use it.
		But I still want to have my own phone, you know, under my name.
		How can one get in touch with you?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		What did you do?
unidentified		I did whistling.
unidentified		I did phone freaking like you did in the 80s for blue boxes.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		I got to tell you something, Art.
		This is stupid, isn't it, Kevin, huh?
		Well, back in my phone freaking days, back in the early 80s, the phone company was so perturbed that they actually, don't forget, I was living with my mom.
		You know, she was raising a young kid.
		I was like 16 years old.
		The phone company actually removed the service for our home for a year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we didn't have a telephone in our apartment for an entire year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They could do that?
unidentified		They did it.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		There's a PUC regulation that allows them to do it.
		And it took a whole year before they'd allow us to have the phone back.
		So you know what I did?
		We were in apartment number 13.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		So what I did is I went to the hardware store and made it apartment 12D.
unidentified		Had the phone company come out and install a service under 12D.
unidentified		And then it took them about a month to figure it out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And when they did that one, it went away too?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, it went away quite quickly.
		I think they went away red-chased.
		They weren't happy.
		But I figured, you know, what are they going to do?
		You know, right?
		They're just going to take it away again.
		So what was the big deal?
		Apparently, they didn't have a sense of humor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
		I told you earlier, the phone company, of all people, they have no sense of humor about this sort of thing at all.
		None whatsoever.
		They're very.
		Well, it's like at one time, I think I was more fearful of the phone police than I was of the police police.
		And the phone police, those were serious people.
		People wouldn't mess around with that.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Except the IX postal inspectors.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, you're going to write a book, huh?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, in fact, we just finalized the contract with Wiley and Sons, and the book is going to be, it's tentatively titled The Art of Deception, Exploiting the Human Element.
		And what the whole book's going to be about is, you know, what is social engineering?
		How does it work?
		A lot of stories.
		And what the purpose of the book is, at the end of the book, we're going to have a template of security policies and procedures that companies could adopt, take what they need and leave the rest.
		And we'll help them minimize their vulnerability with their human element.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What's the title of it again?
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		The Art of Deception.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Art of Deception.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Exploiting the Human Element.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		It kind of reminds me like the Art of War by Sun Tzu.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, my friend, we're out of show.
		We're out of time.
		What an absolute pleasure it has been.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I thank you for having me, Art.
		And by the way, if you ever need a fill-in host, I'm here for you.
		I love listening to your show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thanks, Kevin.
kevin mitnick ▲ ● ▼		Hey, take care.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Later.
		Kevin Metnick.
		Good night, everybody.
unidentified		Good night, everybody.
		I gave you love.
		I thought that we had made it to the top.
		I gave you all I have to give.

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