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Sept. 26, 2001 - Art Bell

02:43:38

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - David Hagberg - Joshua's Hammer

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	Welcome to Art Bell, somewhere in time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from September 26th, 2001.
	From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be in the world.
	And indeed, the world is what we cover, one way or the other.
	I'm Mark Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
	With Delta Airlines announcing thousands of layoffs, the Bush administration on Wednesday planned efforts to restore confidence in air travel following what occurred September 11th.
	Officials said the president would propose new steps to make cockpit doors more secure.
	Yay!
	And to place armed marshals aboard most planes, even domestic flights, as a deterrent to hijackers.
	Other headlines, law enforcement authorities arrested 10, uh, this one's bad, 10 Middle Eastern men in three states Wednesday on charges of, get this, fraudulently obtaining licenses to transport hazardous materials.
	The arrests in Missouri, Michigan, and Washington State followed FBI warnings that terrorists may strike next using chemical or biological weapons.
	Listen to this, authorities said as many as 20 people Who had the bogus permits, some of whom may have had connections to the 19 hijackers involved in the September 11th attacks, have been charged, but may not be linked specifically to the attacks.
	Boy, I guess we better be ready, huh?
	Thousands of demonstrators stormed the long-abandoned U.S.
	Embassy in Afghanistan on Wednesday, pelting it with stones, torching cars, a guardhouse ripping down the heavy metal U.S.
	seal above the entryway, Shouting long live Osama and death to America, burning an effigy of President Bush.
	Meanwhile, we're calling up more reserves.
	More than 600 additional military reservists Wednesday called up for the campaign against terror.
	In New York, they have announced some pretty draconian car restrictions.
	Mayor Giuliani outlined some pretty tough ones Wednesday.
	On cars wishing to enter Manhattan, citing both security reasons and a need to ease traffic jams since the World Trade Center attack.
	Starting Thursday, said Giuliani, no driver can take bridges and tunnels into southern Manhattan between 6 in the morning and noon without at least one passenger.
	Go by yourself and you don't go.
	Pakistan has announced it will keep its border closed to Afghan refugees, but may reconsider its position if conditions in the country deteriorate dramatically.
	Well, according to the UN, they are going to deteriorate catastrophically.
	Top military officials from Russia and nine former Soviet republics met Wednesday to discuss joint action against terrorism as the US proceeds with plans for possible military action against Afghanistan.
	Those are roughly the headlines, not very good ones, huh?
	Now, after the show last night, which many of you just heard leading up to this live program, I received about, between last night's, the beginning of last night's show and about a half hour ago, nominally about 4,000 emails.
	4,000 emails.
	Many of them were absolutely blown away by some of the people who called last night.
	It's in no uncertain terms that we are living the greatest number of crises ever to face humankind, and they're telling us, George, that we've got to act, or not much else is going to make any difference.
	Now let's go back to the night of September 26th, 2001, on Art Bell, somewhere in time.
	Alright, into the night we go.
	East of the Rockies, you are on the air.
	Good morning.
	All right, R. Hi, this is Tom from Omaha.
	Hi, Tom.
	Hey, I work nights every other week, so I get to listen to you all night every other week for the last six months.
	Yes, sir.
	That's good, actually, because I've been here about every other week.
	That's about right.
	I think I miss about every other one of those, too, lately.
	Anyway, what's up?
	Hey, I tried to call and tried to call last night.
	Thank God I got through here to you tonight.
	I just couldn't take it anymore last night.
	I listened and listened to some of the pacifists and the peacemakers, which, that's great.
	I love the fact that we have pacifists and peacemakers in our country who listen to you at night.
	It's just the rationale that they use that disturbs me so bad.
	For example?
	My first example is the Gandhi rationale.
	I don't mean to disparage this young man, but he seemed to be awfully young and naive.
	I thought you mean Gandhi-Tim, right?
	Yes, Gandhi-Tim.
	He struck a note with a lot of people, but he has to remember that Gandhi fought a pacifist war against a civilized government, the British Empire, who played by civilized rules.
	You know, they weren't always right, but they did play by civilized rules.
	If Gandhi set foot in Afghanistan and tried to practice what Gandhi practiced in India, Gandhi would be imprisoned and executed.
	Gandhi would be imprisoned and executed just for not garbing himself, just for not wearing a beard.
	You know, it's amazing to me.
	I just want all the peacemakers, the demonstrators and the pacifists to remember, That there are some people in the world that you can negotiate, and some you can't.
	Well, let me say something.
	Alright, see if you agree with this.
	I was in the military.
	I was in the Air Force.
	I was in Vietnam, even.
	In Vietnam, we had at least an argument that the pacifists could make.
	We had an argument that we shouldn't be interfering in a civil war.
	The other side of which, of course, was that we were trying to stop the spread of communism.
	The larger picture, if you will.
	But there was an argument there.
	In the Korean War, I suppose you could muster up an argument.
	In Somalia, certainly you could make an argument.
	There are many things in my lifetime that you could argue about.
	World War II was pretty clear-cut.
	But here we've got one that, if anything, is even more clear-cut, in a way, than World War II.
	Thousands of Americans killed in our nation's largest city.
	Buildings destroyed and brought to the ground.
	America virtually, for a short time at least, on its knees.
	And a surprise attack.
	Mass murder.
	What else can you call this?
	When is it going to be any more clear than it is right now that we need to go kill these bastards?
	I know, and I don't understand.
	It's not even just ourselves.
	These people, the leaders in this country, and Osama Bin Laden, who purportedly they support, They do far more heinous things to their own people.
	It is amazing to me.
	If they were to stand trial in front of the mainline Islamic community, They'd stand trial and they'd probably get sentenced to death themselves.
	Well, if they can still muster up, we shouldn't respond, we shouldn't do anything to our enemies, and all the rest of it, in this instance, then there is nothing that you could do to these people in this country that would move them off that position.
	Nothing.
	Because this is the worst.
	Precisely.
	And the reason, I will state this, the reason they have made no demands Because their only goal is to destroy our way of life.
	In their country they have no freedoms.
	Professional women who could save the lives of their own children cannot practice.
	Their people cannot be educated.
	Their people cannot use TVs, phones, Internet, anything to advance their own lives, while the leaders of that country use those devices themselves to wage war on their people and on others.
	It's just... Well, you know, I consider myself a civilized person.
	Precisely, so do I. And a civilized person would expect to hear some sort of demand, some rationale twisted, even as it might be, for what was done.
	You know, even some statement of we hate you or something, but nothing.
	Absolutely nothing.
	The only thing they want is us dead.
	If I could just say one other thing.
	I want people to understand.
	Our government, our people, people in the world in general, have inherent iniquities.
	That's what God strives against day to day.
	You know, our government Our government ended the practice of slavery in our country.
	Slavery existed, but we ended the practice of slavery.
	That's right.
	You know, I heard you read something about abortion earlier.
	Yeah, abortion.
	Listen, I've got to go, sir.
	Okay, great.
	I appreciate the time.
	I appreciate the time, Arthur.
	Alright, take care.
	Thank you, sir.
	Bye-bye.
	Coming up on the bottom of the hour.
	I'm Art Bell, this is Coast to Coast AM.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM, from September 26th, 2001.
	In the day, nothing matters.
	In the day, nothing matters In the night, time is flattered
	In the night, no control Through the walls, something's breaking
	Wearing white, I go walking Difficult and bright.
	I used to be a rolling stone, you know, given cause and right, I need to find an answer
	on the road.
	I used to be a hard thing for someone, but the times have changed, and let's just say
	the more I forget the better.
	Cause I never dreamed that this field would give me freedom, from the day that I was born
	I've been designed.
	you Hey!
	Well, it's up to me to pick me how to align.
	Yeah.
	Give me a piece of my mind that I've never had.
	Oh, baby, I just want you to feel the shine on me.
	I know that we shine a light through the eyes of the ones that are behind.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM, from September 26th, 2001.
	Philadelphia of freedom, New York freedom, L.A.
	freedom, San Francisco of freedom.
	I have a feeling that a lot of people don't much like freedom anymore.
	I really do get that feeling.
	A lot of people don't like freedom anymore.
	They should go somewhere and experience what It's absences like.
	I've been there.
	It's kind of strange.
	It's unsettling.
	Actually, it's scary.
	Anyway, stay right where you are.
	We'll be right back.
	there is much more to do this half hour and a great guest for you next half hour.
	Now let's go back to the night of September 26th, 2001 on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	So, All right, just a couple of side notes here before we push forward.
	Number one, if you want to see the book that I'm talking about, my wife bought this for me at Albertsons here in Pahrump, and I don't suppose there are any more, I don't know.
	Joshua's Hammer.
	I'm holding it up on my webcam picture if you go to artbell.com, but I've got another reason for you to go to artbell.com, not just my webcam picture.
	There is something that's been going on with the sun now.
	Our sun, you know, the big bright one in the sky.
	For, I don't know, the last week or two, that is absolutely astounding.
	I mean, absolutely astounding.
	And so if you will go to my website, I've had Keith put up a picture that I can't recall.
	I can't recall seeing the sun like this before.
	We're currently having a gigantic, and I mean gigantic, solar storm.
	The sun spit out an X-flare and it came directly at Earth, and we're currently having a gigantic storm.
	But I have not seen the sun in this shape in a long time.
	I don't think I've ever quite seen it like this.
	This is astounding.
	And so under what's new, I had Keith put today's satellite picture of our sun.
	And the sunspots across the sun, normally it's just a nice, smooth, pretty much smooth orange ball, as seen from satellite about a million miles out in space.
	We've got a satellite that looks right at the sun.
	Take a look at today's photograph.
	Boy, is that a troubled sun.
	Boy, did NASA miss it.
	We have not peaked in the sun cycle.
	In fact, the numbers that we have now are higher than I've ever seen them.
	Higher than they were at the supposed peak of this sun cycle.
	So, something I want to call your attention to.
	Take a look at this photograph of the sun.
	It will blow you away.
	It's at artbell.com.
	And right under what's new, I think it just says, let me see what it says.
	It simply says, under what's new, it simply says, today's sun image.
	Click on that and it will render the satellite photograph of today's sun.
	And it's amazing.
	That is one troubled sun, believe me.
	So be ready for anything from that side.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	Hi.
	I feel that people who do not want to go to war are being portrayed by you unfairly.
	Alright, well, fine.
	Let's talk about it.
	You're obviously one of them, right?
	Yes, I am.
	Where are you?
	In Tampa.
	In Tampa.
	And your first name?
	Sherry.
	Sherry.
	Okay, Sherry.
	Let's talk about it.
	You obviously don't want war, so how should somebody like yourself be portrayed fairly?
	My first reaction was the same as yours.
	But, if you can pull yourself back from that, and take the scenario a few steps beyond, and think what's going on right now and what events it can trigger, what... I would love to be able to just say, okay, we can just... Okay, Sherry, what concerns you?
	And that would be that.
	Okay, stop for a second, stop for a second, Sherry.
	What do you see, aside from the fact that we kill him and somebody else comes along, what else do you think could happen?
	Well, for one thing, we seem to be rallying all these people, all these countries to our side.
	Yes.
	As if to begin the whole one world thing.
	Uh-huh.
	It's to kick it off.
	The wheels have been set in motion, and it's like we're finally kicking it off.
	Well, the world is getting smaller, Sherry.
	There's no question about that.
	I don't know about one world, but the reason that these countries, many of which would never normally rally to our side, is because Of the gravity of the situation, how awful this was.
	I mean, this was utterly, utterly horrendous.
	It was mass murder, Sherry.
	And I won't say that we deserve it.
	What I will say is that we did bring it upon ourselves.
	By doing what?
	We just don't stay out of other people's business.
	We just always have to be there and we People look to us to police the world, to fight their battles, to rebuild their cities after we tear them down for them.
	You know, if I had my way, I would call every American citizen home, kick every non-citizen out, put the military on our borders, and start cleaning up our own backyard first.
	You know, I think we're tired We're tired of putting on shoes made in Japan, waving flags made in China, getting in Japanese cars, putting Arab oil in it.
	I want to eat American food grown by American farmers.
	Alright, take a breath, Sherry.
	Our country, when it was founded, was founded on open arms.
	Freedom and offering freedom to the oppressed of the world.
	And there still are many oppressed in the world.
	At a different time in history.
	I don't think you can compare that time in history.
	But you want to pull our military in from all over the world and you want to put them on our borders.
	On our own borders.
	Which begins to resemble a kind of a police state, Sherry, really.
	No, just on our borders.
	On our borders?
	Americans are used to free travel.
	Right.
	If our borders were protected, we could travel freely.
	Well, I mean, going across borders rather freely.
	Well, if you want to do that, you do it at your own risk.
	These two women, who are being held there now, if they did, in fact, go there trying to push Christianity on these people, what did they expect?
	They're on their own!
	They're on their own!
	That's insanity!
	so they faced a possible death sentence so what do we want to do?
	that's insanity that's about as insane as
	bidadi or hussein or bin laden i mean think about it
	Well, most Americans are also used to the freedom of religion and being able to proselytize if they want to.
	These people surely had to be educated enough.
	I mean, here in America, you can proselytize.
	You can go to an airport if you want, I suppose.
	Well, maybe not these days.
	And preach the word of God, if that's what pleases you.
	And if you want that in your life, and if you believe that's what's right, fine.
	Just like if you want freedom and liberty in your country and you believe it's the best thing in the world going, fine.
	That doesn't give you the right to inflict it on other people.
	And clearly it's not right for all people.
	My goodness.
	Alright, so if you were in charge, Sherry, you would not... I would clean up the trash in our own backyard first.
	And you would not respond to this?
	At this point, probably not.
	Okay, well I think I've got it.
	Thank you very much, Sherry.
	There's another.
	Not quite as frightened as some, but you get the idea, I'm sure.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	Did you say east?
	No.
	Well, it doesn't matter.
	Are you talking to me?
	Yes.
	Are you talking to me?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	I kind of agree with some of the stuff she said, but it just gets down to... I wanted to ask you about something that I've been thinking about, but it does get down to just, if you're attacked, you have to battle.
	What else is it?
	Probably a woman, she might have been behind a concentration camp if they hadn't gone to war.
	If somebody comes after you to murder you or your family, what do you do?
	You battle.
	If you don't want to call it a war, call it a battle.
	You know, and it's gone on since time, hasn't it?
	You just objected to the word.
	Actually, I'm rather pleased that they're using the word war, to be honest with you, because in the past we've always used police action, then we've had advisors, and, you know, we've called a lot of different things Operation This and Operation That.
	Let's face it, when somebody blows away 210-story buildings, hits the Pentagon, kills thousands of Americans, that's war.
	Murders, yeah.
	Murders.
	And I agree with you.
	I totally agree with you.
	And you know, people that have hurt you so before I ask you this question, who have hurt you so about, I've learned to just ignore them because I know I've been taught, I've been spiritual since I was two, that people are just trying to find God, but some of them are doing it at a very low level.
	That's what I've been taught.
	Maybe they're looking for God in places that He is not.
	Right.
	And that's where they perceive it from and their ideas.
	So I just ignore them.
	They don't bother me at all.
	But you know, I too am a reader and a writer.
	Yes.
	I wrote you a letter.
	Probably the only one who ever wrote you a letter.
	But anyway, something just doesn't make sense to me.
	This madman who is arrogant and probably Too smart for his own good, okay?
	I wonder if he is a madman.
	That's a good question for me.
	Well, I can't imagine.
	After dealing with some of them in this country, I see it's just a madness from a country that their culture is not humane.
	Well, from our perspective, certainly he's a madman.
	It's easy to sit here and call him that, but I really don't know a whole lot about Osama Bin Laden.
	I want to know more.
	And so I guess that's what I'll try and do tonight.
	Well, then we're probably on the same page about him, because what I'm going to say to It doesn't make any sense to me when he did this that afterwards this country would be on such alert and looking in every corner and every day I hear about more, you know, being arrested and all these false IDs.
	That doesn't make any sense to me that he would know that this would happen.
	So why do what he did and then have this happen?
	So maybe all these rats from A whole bunch of things are coming out.
	Do you know what I'm saying?
	Yes.
	I'm a writer.
	In fact, just before this happened, I submitted a screenplay to a director actor on a Terrace movie right before this happened.
	If I was writing this, that just would not make sense to me.
	Maybe when you have your author on tonight, something just doesn't jive.
	We will ask.
	Thank you, dear.
	Thank you, dear.
	Yeah, we sure will ask.
	I was astounded that this book was written.
	You know, I immediately, of course, checked.
	I said, this just can't be.
	And I checked the date, and of course, it was written in 2000, and originally came out in 2000, I guess.
	And then in August of 2001, it hit the bookshelves, and I just couldn't believe it.
	So I thought I'd have them on the air.
	First time caller in line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	Um, this is Denny from Modesto.
	Yes.
	Um, I was trying to call in last night and I'm glad I didn't because I was so hot.
	Where are these people coming from?
	Well, you just heard another one.
	It's beyond me.
	Because I look at my husband every day and I thank him that he, or thank God that he was not on that plane, one of those planes, or in those towers.
	I want these people tomorrow, when their kids get up, when their wives, their brothers, their mothers, whoever, the people closest to them, look them in the face and say, when these terrorists hit us again, I'm not going to do anything.
	I thought one man in one of the debates last night had it down as close as you could get it.
	He said, What's it going to take?
	Your wife?
	Your brother?
	Your mother?
	Your husband?
	Likely!
	Is it going to take that before you want to do something about this?
	Or you've got to wonder if some of these people maybe they're what they really say they are and maybe even if somebody in their own family or their own family was slaughtered they would continue to take this give peace a chance position.
	Then they're cowards!
	Our country was founded on, and everybody wants to preach about the Bible And what history is?
	Well, our history was founded on our forefathers fighting for what we have today.
	If we do not strike back and take justice for those two people holding hands as they fell out of the tower, or that little baby that died in the car when the tower fell on him, if we don't take justice, our own children are going to grow up with this happening like it does in Egypt or Pakistan.
	Going to the market and not knowing if you're coming home.
	Or the people in Flight 93.
	The people who... I just... I could never... I'm not over it.
	There was a man who spoke to his wife.
	And she told him that, you know, the tower... one of the towers at that point had been hit.
	So he knew damn well where that plane was going.
	They took a vote on the aircraft.
	You know, this fellow had a two-month-old baby on the plane with him.
	They took a vote on that aircraft and they went up front and crashed that airplane.
	He is going to be in history.
	When people remember the heroes of what happened that Tuesday, they're going to remember him.
	And they're going to remember the people on that plane.
	Because they did something.
	They stood up and said, no, you are not going to take any more lives.
	You are not going to ruin our country.
	There's people in this country that will take a stand, and they did it.
	Well, that's why the positions of these people, these peaceniks, peace of any price, I guess, it's beyond my understanding.
	And I'm being flooded with it.
	I mean, I'm absolutely being flooded with it.
	I just, I picked out, you may have heard me read some emails at the beginning of the program.
	Yeah, it was pretty unbelievable.
	My hand was on the floor.
	Yeah, those were some of the milder ones.
	Thank you.
	Take care.
	West of the Rockies?
	No, make that a wild-card line.
	You're on the air.
	Hello?
	Hello?
	Yes.
	Mr. Bell?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	I haven't got my radio on, but there seems to be an echo.
	I'm not hearing it, so that's it.
	Oh, okay.
	It's just on my alignment.
	I wanted to thank you for bringing both sides of this issue to light last night.
	Sure.
	Okay.
	Because only in this country could these kind of fools say what they said.
	In Afghanistan, they'd have been shot for treason.
	No doubt about it.
	Um, you know, listen to this, uh, when you see a forum like this, uh, now I'm hearing the echo.
	When, when you, uh, when you see a radio program, let me see if I can get rid of this damn echo, hold on.
	When, when you see a radio program like this disappear, when it leaves the airwaves, uh, and others like it, and you cannot any longer say things like this, and you never know, someday it could get there.
	It's like a little beacon in the night.
	When that disappears and you know we're in trouble.
	Yes, indeed.
	You know that we don't live in America anymore.
	Our America isn't what it used to be.
	Let me change my phone for a second.
	Sure.
	Is that better?
	That's better.
	Okay, but anyway, you had said last night that fear had brought this out.
	Okay.
	Well, certainly in some cases, because they were wringing their hands.
	Oh my God, you know, it could lead to World War III.
	It could lead to this.
	It could lead to that.
	It could lead to more attacks.
	If we go hit them, they're going to hit us even harder.
	That's what I heard last night.
	Absolutely.
	But, you know, I've been looking at this for the last two weeks pretty hard.
	And, you know, we faced this before in Iraq.
	And, you know, those Those troops, his Republican Guard, were supposed to be ready to be martyred, to go to Allah.
	And you know what?
	They were out of there in, what, three or four weeks after we started?
	It won't be any different in Afghanistan.
	I don't believe it will.
	I believe it will turn tail and run, because they're not like our country, where our sons and daughters I do believe this is possible.
	I believe that there are probably sleepers in this country, and I used to scoff at this sort of thing, but I think there are sleepers, agents in this country, ready to probably do what Osama Bin Laden wants.
	When he gives the order, and I think that if we hit him, they probably will give that order, and so we've got to face up to it.
	We may face more terror.
	Oh, we will.
	And those are the guys that are going to be dangerous to us, the ones inside the border.
	And we're going to have to be very, very careful about checking IDs and routing these people out.
	And the Islamic nation in this country needs to step forward and throw these guys out.
	You know, make their presence known to the government.
	Well, they're making arrests all over the world.
	I'm hearing just tonight, I read to you about the latest arrests of people getting these hazardous material permits illegally that may be connected to the terrorists.
	My God.
	Oh, yeah.
	Yeah.
	I mean, any of this is going to be, all these doors will be open to them because our government is wide open.
	And that's why, you know, that's why we're a great government.
	Unfortunately.
	I wanted to know, have you seen a special called Lifting the Veil?
	Yes.
	As a matter of fact, CNN profiled it earlier tonight about the women of Afghanistan.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	I would recommend everybody in America watch that program and maybe they get a better idea.
	I'll second that.
	I've got to go.
	Thank you, sir.
	Thank you very much and good night.
	We'll be back shortly with David Hegbert.
	The book is Joshua's Hammer.
	It's an awesome book.
	Stay right there.
	You're listening to Art Bell's Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 26th, 2001.
	Come walk with me, on a dimly lit day away.
	Can't ever see, your smile for the people you meet.
	On troubled ground, you've got another wheel in your ride.
	Children, that have autism.
	Coast to Coast AM, September 26th, 2001.
	Go, go, go, ride by the wind Throw yourself in a spin I gave you love, I thought that we I've made it to the top I gave you all I have to give Why did it have to stop?
	You've blown it all sky high By telling me a lie Without a reason why You've blown it all sky high You've blown it all sky high, our love had wings to fly
	You could have touched the sky, you've blown it all sky high
	Far above the land of the free You could have touched the sky, you've blown it all sky
	high Far above the land of the free
	In this case, I searched out an author.
	His name is David Haggard, and he's written a book called Joshua's Hammer.
	Just let me tell my story briefly again, several days ago.
	My wife knew I was out of reading material.
	I'm an avid reader.
	I just, I read.
	I gobble books, as does my wife.
	We both are, actually.
	And I was out of books.
	You know, I had read my last good book.
	I love thrillers.
	I love adventure.
	I love high drama.
	I love Tom Clancy.
	I love Dean Kuntz.
	And so my wife spied this book for me at Albertsons, I don't know, three or four days ago.
	It's called Joshua's Hammer.
	And Dean Kuntz said of it, if you're looking for thrillers with international intrigue, Hagberg is a major find.
	And he sure is.
	Let me read you.
	This is why my wife bought it for me.
	The back of the book says the following.
	When a one kiloton Russian nuclear demolitions bomb, the size of a suitcase, ends up in the hands of Saudi multimillionaire Osama Bin Laden, the entire world sits up and takes notice.
	And when the U.S.
	launches an attack on the terrorist base of operations in Afghanistan, killing his daughter, retaliation against America is inevitable.
	Now, Kirk McGarvey, the hero of our story, I guess, is in for the race of his life in a race against time.
	McGarvey has to find out how the bomb will get to the U.S., where it'll be detonated, and when this, the worst terrorist attack in U.S.
	history, will take place.
	But, not only must McGarvey stop the bomb, he must protect his own daughter and the daughter of the President of the U.S.
	from a savage act of retaliation by a man gone mad.
	Now, David is a New York Times bestseller author with his book High Flight, and I guess Critical Mass, The White House, a book called White House.
	But this one, I thought, you know, some publisher has just somehow squeaked this thing out since the attack.
	And so I opened the book before I ever called him, and I noticed that, as you will, that this book actually came out first edition August of
	2000 and the first mass-market edition June of 2001
	so in my eyes this book is prophetic not only is it prophetic it's in the style of Clancy
	it's a long book it's about 500 and some odd pages 525 or so
	pages long and the insights though it's a novel
	into the Central Intelligence Agency that This whole thing is written from the point of view of inside the CIA.
	And I mean really inside the CIA.
	And it's written, it takes you right into Bin Laden's camp.
	It takes you right into Bin Laden's organization.
	And the insights into both Bin Laden and the CIA, I thought, were More than a little coincidental.
	And so, earlier today, I said to myself, God, I'm reading this.
	I really ought to get a hold of the author.
	And so we began to pursue David Hagberg, and I found him.
	And he's up really late in Florida.
	So coming up in a moment, the author of Joshua's Hammer.
	By the way, if you want to know more about it, you can probably get it on Amazon.com.
	I'm sure we've got links to that.
	I hope.
	Let me see.
	Do we?
	Yes, we do.
	In fact, actually, all you have to do is click on the book.
	Go to Artbell.com, my website.
	Go to Program, tonight's guest info.
	And just click on the book, and it will take you to where you can get it.
	I got it at Albertsons.
	I think that may have been the last copy.
	You'll probably have to go to Amazon.com.
	you may get a better price than I did.
	Now let's go back to the night of September 26, 2001 on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	and I'm going to show you how to get them.
	Now, I'm going to show you how to get them.
	you All right, here we go.
	As promised, all the way from Florida, up very late this morning, is David Hagbard.
	David, welcome to the program.
	Morning, Art.
	I didn't think anybody was up this late or early, but here I am.
	Oh, yes, they are, David.
	Yeah, as I explained, we were talking earlier.
	In the early days, I was learning how to write.
	I did everything from bartending to bricklaying, but I did a stint for a year at a factory building lawnmowers, commercial lawnmowers.
	It was like the midnight to eight in the morning shift or whatever it was.
	So at eight o'clock, we'd get off work at the factory and go down to the local bar and have a couple of beers.
	People drive by and say, look at those drunks out there.
	It's more than drunks.
	It was just afternoon.
	Our afternoon.
	That's right.
	All over the world out there.
	It's my morning.
	Listen, believe me, with regard to Joshua's Hammer, when your book has made it to Albertson's Supermarket in Pahrump, Nevada, you made it, brother.
	Yeah, I was amazed that you were telling me where it was.
	Shame on me, I've never heard of Pahrump.
	Most people have not.
	Most people have not.
	I actually enjoy that fact.
	David, you know I'm not that far into your book right now.
	A couple of days worth reading myself to sleep into your book.
	I couldn't believe it.
	How in the world could you have so much insight into the inside of the CIA?
	So many operational details about the CIA.
	Maybe too many.
	Well, there's the easy answer that you tell if you're an author, and you tell about cocktail parties, and somebody says, well, how do you know so much?
	And you say, well, look, I write fiction.
	I make it all up.
	And then there's the more difficult answer that I've been doing this for 40 years.
	1960, as a young man out of high school, I joined the Air Force and passed River Aptitude Tests.
	Right away, they put me in cryptography.
	And that was at the very, very beginning of electronic cryptography, which had been designed and invented and built by the National Security Agency.
	Another outfit that nobody had heard of in those days, even though it was bigger than the CIA.
	Yes.
	And so I got into the world for seven and a half years, up in Thule, Greenland, in an old Nazi bunker in Germany, where we built the largest cryptographic center in the world.
	We're listing the Russians, and heady stuff, really nifty stuff.
	I thought that only Airmen, were you Airmen or an officer?
	Airmen.
	I thought only Airmen that...
	You know, took after Colonel's daughters went to Thule.
	No, it's actually a wonderful place.
	There's a girl behind every tree.
	Because there's a tree in the hole on the whole island.
	That's right.
	You know, I found that a fascinating place.
	We're not going to digress to get off into that.
	That was called a ballistic missile early warning system.
	It was one of their sites.
	They had these great big huge radar antennas the size of football fields turned on edge looking toward Russia because the attack was going to come over the poles.
	Well, the first day they turned these things on, it was nighttime.
	They got this huge scatter return.
	It looked like the entire Russian Air Force was coming over the pole.
	And they were going to push the panic button.
	Some bright engineers went outside and looked up toward the direction and saw the moon.
	They were bouncing these radar signals off the moon.
	And that was the scatter coming back.
	I mean, this was the backdrop under which I Which my education and sort of a business began, and I was a cocky young kid and excited as hell.
	I want to say great times are the bad times.
	Kennedy's assassination, that's a date that will live just like December 9-11 will live in everybody's mind.
	Yes, forever.
	I understand you have actually spoken to the CIA, or been a speaker for the CIA?
	Well, yeah, sometimes a flap copy or the jacket copy on the books gives you just a tad more than what really was.
	What happened, and this was a number of times I've spoken to a number of CIA people, but I was the dinner guest speaker, the luncheon speaker for the annual meeting of this group, and they call themselves the government.
	Employees Association.
	It was over in Clearwater, Florida a couple of years ago.
	And I did a little speech about real life intelligence agencies at that time.
	The CIA, the KGB, and the Israeli Mossad.
	These were the top three top agencies at the time.
	And there were about 400 people in the audience.
	And I got this huge standing ovation.
	And I thought, gosh, I'm pretty cool.
	This is kind of neat.
	And afterwards, cocktails are talking, this guy and his wife are there, and he says, you know who and what we are?
	And I said, no.
	He said, we're old CIA and NSA agents.
	Almost fell to the floor.
	And he says, you're telling us some things that we didn't know because we're so compartmentalized.
	So since then, I know I've gotten to know quite a few CIA executives, former Director of Communications of the CIA, as a matter of fact, right here in town.
	A friend of mine, Hagel, is an attorney now.
	She was a field operative over in Czechoslovakia, and she followed a trail across Europe that led to the United States and led to the downing, and she had blown the whistle too late, led to the downing of that, what was it, I want to say Pan Am or TWA 800, the one over Long Island?
	Oh, that was 800.
	Yeah, 800, right.
	And she had heard rumors.
	There had been the rumor mill going around Europe at the time that that was going to be a target.
	And it turns out it wasn't.
	It just exposed the fuel tank, the best they could figure.
	And the CIA did do scenarios, computer simulations on that.
	I wonder how really sure we are that that was not a terrorist attack.
	You know, how sure can you be of anything except for death and taxes, I guess?
	The best-studied opinion that we have is that the fuel tank, the fumes of the fuel tank exploded.
	And we're going through a number of scenarios now to try to stop that, like putting nitrogen gas, pumping nitrogen gas as a fuel tank and airplane empties, put nitrogen gas in there.
	I know, but you know, looking back, David, there were an awful lot of people who saw a missile.
	There were even some photographs.
	Yeah, that's what CIA did, this computer simulation.
	And they find out that, you know, if you talk to people and they see a lightning strike, they'll swear on a stack of labels, the lightning came out of the sky and hit the ground.
	But in fact, it went from the ground to the sky.
	Thank you.
	And so, the reverse is true.
	They feel, they think on this, on the airplane, that there was a sharp explosion that came through a seam or whatever in the tank.
	And it was a real sharp spurt of hot gas.
	And I just said, well, you know, it looked like there was a missile streak going up to the airplane just before the explosion.
	So, you know, there's still people who believe that the Lincoln assassination was a conspiracy.
	And maybe.
	There's no way of knowing that, at least not for me.
	Well, you've got to believe in conspiracies, don't you?
	Because look what they just did.
	I mean, what kind of complex operation David, would it have been for somebody to simultaneously hijack four jets, plow them into 210-story buildings, bring the buildings down, killing thousands, and then plow into the Pentagon on top of that?
	And probably if Flight 93 hadn't stopped, courtesy of the passengers, real heroes, that would have plowed into the White House.
	I couldn't have written those heroes on that flight.
	That would have been hard.
	My publisher would have said, no, come on, we're not... average people aren't that heroic.
	Average people are that heroic.
	Apparently they are.
	A monument to it.
	You've got to understand that Osama Bin Laden isn't some knee-jerk, stupid guy.
	A lot of Americans now think all Arabs are stupid, which is hardly the truth.
	This guy is very, very bright and very well educated.
	We can get into his background later.
	He started this thing called, well, he didn't start it, but he took over a thing called Al-Qaeda, or Al-Qaeda, I mean, it just means loosely, the base.
	And he's surrounded, has surrounded himself with doctors, lawyers, building engineers, you want to bring down a building, let's talk to the engineers and see how it's done.
	Did you say that Al-Qaeda means the base?
	Means the base.
	Well, it was started out by a, my brain at the start of the morning, there was an Arab I want to say Pakistani, but he's not.
	It's probably Yemeni or something.
	And they started in Pakistan near the border with Afghanistan.
	It was for the Freedom Fires, the Afghani Freedom Fires, when they were fighting the Russians called the Mujahideen.
	And it was a safe haven.
	It was a place where these guys could...nobody's shooting them.
	They'd be trained.
	Uh, they'd be giving good food, medicine, and weapons.
	By the way, uh, in that war, we were, the CIA was supplying, uh, Saddam Hussein and, I mean, uh, uh, Osama Bin Laden and his crew.
	And so, and so, uh, Osama took this over.
	He was fighting the Russians?
	Yeah, fighting the Russians, actually.
	And he was, uh, he was very much, uh, in our corner.
	We were in his corner.
	And so this base, uh, he took it over, and it's a worldwide, Santa Barbara, California, supposedly got a, got links, uh, I want to say Garden City, New Jersey.
	You're out there somewhere.
	I've got links to this.
	And it's very loose.
	I mean, they don't have meetings as such.
	Let's say there's Bin Laden and Meshwari, his number two guy.
	And there's maybe 10 or 12 men in the elite circle.
	And then it goes out into sales all around the world.
	And each sale doesn't know what the other one's doing.
	But if you want to know, let's say, how to take down a building.
	They'll get together with a couple of building engineers and say, well, you do it this way.
	You can put a couple of bombs in the basement of this place and knock over one tower.
	It'll fall into the other tower and knock everything down.
	At the same time, we'll throw in a little cyanide gas to go through the system to kill the rescue workers.
	Well, they tried that a few years ago and it didn't work.
	And it should have been a wake-up call because some of the guys they arrested for that bomb in the World Trade Center were trained airline pilots.
	Oh, really?
	Oh, yeah.
	No, I didn't know that.
	Yeah, well, it's been on the news, but it was something that, okay, so the train pilots, who cares?
	Who gives a damn?
	They were bombing the building.
	They weren't flying an airplane, but, you know, it was kind of a wake-up call.
	These guys have been in this country for some time now, and so this, it's a heck of a lot easier to go into a basement of a building in a van and blow it up.
	Then there's the hijack an airliner and pop it into the building.
	Even at that, when these airliners slammed into the buildings, I did not think the buildings were going to go down.
	However, I've been informed that at about 800 degrees centigrade, the metal begins to melt, and they obviously must have known the jet fuel would accomplish that for them.
	That's why they took transcontinental airliners, because at the beginnings of the journey, because they were filled with fuel, it was a pretty efficient way, when you think coldly efficient, when you think about the way of putting a bomb up there.
	And you've got to bet your bottom dollar that Bin Laden's boys, his engineers, understood, here's how you bring down a building.
	You start the upper floors burning and they start to collapse on each other and bingo, it's done.
	What surprised me was that, and maybe they had planned this, but if you want to be really cold-blooded about this, and he's done these kinds of things with the Russians on a lesser scale, of course, that you cause a catastrophe, right?
	Yeah.
	And in the aftermath of the catastrophe, when all the rescue workers are coming in, you create another catastrophe there to kill the rescue workers.
	Which is what they did.
	Yeah.
	Well, yeah, in effect, because the buildings came down.
	But I was holding my breath.
	And it sounds like I'm a ghoulish, macabre person, but I'm exactly the opposite.
	I was holding my breath, waiting after these buildings collapsed as far as I could.
	And all the police and firemen are there looking for their comrades, looking for people.
	I was just holding my breath that another airplane or bomb or something didn't pop off right there at ground zero.
	Well, as it was, the New York City Fire Department lost over half its members.
	Yeah, isn't that amazing?
	There's more here.
	I've always admired firemen.
	I'm not just saying this for the moment, but I always have had a great, great admiration for firemen.
	I remember back in the 60s, In those inner-city riots, 70s I guess, inner-city riots, where city of Detroit and inner-city was burning and firemen were coming in and people were shooting at them and the firemen still came in.
	That's right.
	And the firemen were there to save lives.
	I do want to talk about, you know, a lot of people here say, and I guess from our perspective, Osama Bin Laden is a madman.
	But I have this feeling that he's not really a madman, or is he?
	You have to, I guess you have to define what mad is.
	I mean, is it psychosis?
	Is it paranoid, clinical paranoia or whatever?
	That I don't know.
	I know that he's a man of dedication.
	He's a man of great zeal.
	I made up in my book why I think he went from this young playboy with tons and tons of money Who gambled in London, who just jet-setted around the world.
	I mean, this guy was living the high life, and he decided, as a lot of young men will do, when the Russians invaded Afghanistan, which is a fellow Islamic country, fine, let's go ahead and do what we can and have a good time, boys.
	Let's drink a few drinks and kill off some Russians.
	He did that for 10 years to the point that he became a hero of the people because he didn't live in some palace there.
	He was living right in the dirt and eating the same food that his soldiers were eating.
	But somewhere along the line, He decided that America was the evil enemy, the West was the evil enemy.
	Yeah, I would like to try and understand how he made that decision.
	Hold on a moment, David.
	We're going to take a break here at the bottom of the hour, David.
	Hagberg is my guest.
	If you want to see more about his book, Joshua's Hammer, check my website.
	I'm Art Bell.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	tonight featuring a replay of coast to coast am from september 26th 2001
	i don't know what's going on i don't hear whiskey in the stories when i wake up when i wake up
	So I can swing my wrist around and around and around.
	Don't say that you love me.
	Don't say that you love me.
	Don't tell me that you want me.
	Don't tell me that you want me.
	The smallest details is getting my hair to fly.
	I'll be finding a place where we can go.
	Still I'm just a man.
	So watch the clouds roll by.
	The time that's waiting for me.
	You can lay your head back on me now.
	Let your hair fall all around.
	Offer up your desire.
	Just a man.
	Just a man.
	Doesn't mean too much.
	Oh beautiful for spacious skies.
	Now the skies are threatening.
	Repeating clashes and disorders.
	Tired old man, the field empties in.
	Aren't there ones?
	You're listening to Art Bell's Somewhere in Time, tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 2001.
	The author of the book I'm reading now, David Hegberg, is my guest.
	These are in a book called Joshua's Hammer, and if you like Clancy, you're going to love Haggard.
	If you go to my website now and click on the book cover, you know, go to tonight's guest info and click on the book cover, it'll take you to Amazon.com.
	It's a paperback, and check this out, folks.
	They're going to go out of business if they keep doing this.
	It's $6.47 on Amazon.com.
	$6.47.
	My, my, my, my.
	on the phone uh... six dollars
	forty seven cents my my my my alright i will be right back with david
	you're listening to our girls somewhere in time on premier radio networks
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 26th, 2001.
	David, welcome back.
	Thanks.
	All right.
	Osama bin Laden is the bad guy in your book.
	And I have to ask you about that.
	I mean, how you even wrote this and what you felt like when you saw all of this coming down on the 11th.
	After writing this book, you must have gone, Oh, my God.
	I was working and my daughter lives down in Fort Lauderdale.
	She called me and said, Dad, Yes, she said they hit the New York Trade Tower.
	I said, don't tell me another bomb or such.
	She said, no, an airplane hit it.
	I said, well, they stick up out of the sky and there's been some near misses.
	She said, yeah.
	I said, okay, I'll talk to you later.
	She hung up.
	A little while later, she said, Dad, I'm watching another airplane just went off.
	I said, oh, God.
	You knew what it was then?
	Yeah, so I turned on the television and I watched those replays over and over again.
	Besides being horrified that not my son called, then, so what do I think?
	And I said, I think that if I were to write that particular scenario, that's exactly how I would write it.
	I mean, that's what it would look like in my mind's eye if I wrote a thing that way.
	And it's just, you know, you have to understand that I write fiction.
	I make this stuff up, and it's based on true life.
	But in my books, there's always a happy ending.
	The good guys always win, and everything's tidy and neat.
	tied up at the real life real world and all of that so all of that way
	or a unfortunately what do you know about a some of them live in but one
	woman uh... offer for the bright guy uh... on he's twisted for
	some reason and nobody really knows you know whoever nobody's twisted this
	religion islam's sort of proportional one
	i mean a korean when you're saying you're saying though that he was a
	You know, he was a playboy.
	First of all, his dad was born very, very poor in Yemen and moved to Saudi Arabia.
	He had a whole ton of wives.
	I think he's got, like, 50 kids.
	And he got a construction contract to do something for the Saudis, and he did it well.
	And then they said, all right, Kate, you're doing a good job.
	Do Medina and Mecca, these are the two holiest places for all of Islam, and he rebuilt those two holy places, and he was in like, yeah, this is big.
	And so the family became instant multi-billionaires, and so Osama's a young man, lots of kids, he was one of the favorite sons, he went off to, he was at the University of Cairo and studied business, he went to London, he was a playboy, drank, raised hell, gambled and all that.
	And then he went off to Afghanistan to help fight the Russians, because they were against the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan.
	And something happened to him out there.
	Nobody knows quite yet, but he went from this playboy image to this, I don't know any other word than religious zealot.
	And his sole aim at the time, he says, Western influences out of the east, out of the Arabian Peninsula, Saudi Arabia.
	And I don't know whether, I mean there's some speculation, so here Saddam Hussein, a little ragtag band of poorly fed, poorly equipped Afghanis, Mujahideen kicked this big Russian army out of Afghanistan.
	And so he had this win and maybe that reinforced him.
	What's the old saying?
	Power corrupts the absolute.
	Power corrupts absolutely.
	He was adored by these people.
	I mean, almost to a god-like status.
	He might even begin to believe his own PR.
	And at some point during the Gulf War, when Saudi allowed us to base in privileges for our fighter aircraft not to go in and kick Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait, Remember, the Arabs look at that whole thing quite differently than Americans do, too, because Kuwait really is a province, or was a province, of Iraq, and so Hussein was just doing what he thought was right, and a lot of Arabs thought was right.
	Nonetheless, at that point, at that point, bin Laden said he wants all Americans out of Saudi Arabia.
	Period.
	End statement.
	And he was so rabid about it that the Saudi ruling family kicked him out of the country.
	And which reinforced his anger even more, and at some point he issued what's called a fatwa, and that is a religious or holy order.
	Here's a guy, he's not an imam or a preacher or anything, but he issued a holy order saying that it is every Muslim's duty Anyplace, anywhere, at any time, to kill any and all Americans, as men, women, children, I don't care what they're doing, where they are, your duty is to kill them now.
	Now that's not, that's not religion, that's not Islam, that's not the Muslim religion, and the Koran is a beautiful book that's far less violent than, let's say, our Bible.
	The basic day belief.
	You're shaving in the morning, right?
	You look in the mirror?
	Yes.
	And you see your mirror image is exactly you, right?
	Sure.
	But it isn't you.
	It's just a mirror image.
	Well, that's what a Muslim believes, that our bodies, our selves, our lives here on Earth are nothing more than a mirror image of our real selves, which dwell in paradise with Allah.
	And when it's time, we will show up polite.
	And we'll go, the mirror image will be gone and we'll be where we're supposed to be.
	Now that's pretty.
	That's not violence, that's not suicide bombers or killing innocent women and children.
	Well, you may not have an answer to this, but I have concluded myself, after all there's been no...
	Since this occurred, no credit taken, essentially, for it.
	He usually never does.
	No demands made for change in U.S.
	policy.
	It's just kind of like they want us dead.
	That's right.
	They want us dead.
	They want us out of the Saudi Arabian Peninsula.
	They want us out of the Arabian Peninsula.
	They want us out of it.
	And they want Israel off the area.
	They want all Westerners out of the whole area.
	Just stay away.
	They say we're the ones who invented the atomic bombs.
	We're the bad guys.
	We're the ones who invented our need for oil, which has ruined the whole region, our insatiable appetite for oil.
	They want us out of there.
	They want to cap the oil.
	Well, they just want to finish it all and get rid of us.
	Now that's... they don't.
	I'm saying Osama bin Laden.
	I keep saying Saddam Hussein, but he's right there with that.
	Only his motives are even more Are less religious.
	They're more secular, if you will.
	He's just power.
	He is power-hungry.
	Well, after all, we helped bin Laden while he was fighting the Russians, because we wanted... So how does he get from that to all Westerners must die?
	We don't know that yet, and in my book I speculate that he has a run-in with a CIA agent who ends up looking like a fool in front of his men, in front of the CIA agent, and then come to find out she's a woman.
	about it and then the book we have a run-in with the cia agent who uh...
	who ends up he ends up looking like a fool in front of men and
	in front of the stage and then come to term find out i can model thereafter my friend here in town
	and political sure and then that uh... there have been a little uh... doesn't
	make it worse a woman Thank you.
	And that... Nobody knows.
	Nobody really knows.
	It could be even that Osama himself does not know.
	His family has disowned him.
	He has a brother living here in Florida, and his brother had disowned him.
	In fact, Close down their house.
	I think it's Lauderdale.
	Close down their house and boogie back to Saudi Arabia.
	I won't lie to you.
	I thought you had a brother up in, I want to say somewhere in Maryland, Baltimore or something like that.
	Understand the Bin Laden family, the dad has like about 50 or 60 kids.
	Bin Laden himself has three wives and maybe several dozen children.
	What a way to treat your wife and family.
	They're living in caves!
	In caves in the mountains of Afghanistan.
	Are we going to be able to find them?
	I'm not laughing because I think it's funny.
	I'm laughing out of irony.
	It depends on whether we want to get our hands dirty or not.
	A couple of days after this event happened, a friend of mine said, are we going to ask the same question?
	He said, yes, we'll find them if we don't mind collateral damage.
	And I said, they didn't give a damn about collateral damage when they hit the World Trade Center.
	So who cares about some Afghani women and children?
	And I thought, my God, David, I've become... I'm preaching the same tone from the same book that he's preaching from.
	No, no, no.
	If we're going to get them, it's going to be tough.
	It's going to be a long way.
	He's got some very, very, very close and loyal followers.
	We're going to have to have human intelligence.
	Something the CIA hasn't had for a long time.
	Not only that, but in this case, it's a double problem because, you know, we don't look like they do.
	We don't have the same religion they have.
	We don't understand how they live and what they think about.
	That goes back to what's called human intelligence.
	During the Carter administration, and a lot of subsequent presidents since him, said that the United States, we're the guiding light, the shining beacon of Morality or, I don't know, morality, but the way people are supposed to live and act in the world, and that means that the CIA and the FBI are not going to deal with the murderers and the rapists and the drug dealers of that world.
	We're just going to use our satellites and electronic eavesdropping to give us intelligence.
	The fact of the matter is you don't get enough intelligence that way.
	Who belong to these terrorist organizations are the druggies and the rapists and the murderers, and if you want human intelligence, human it's called, then you have to deal with these people.
	Well, we haven't, and that's why we have this big hole in our intelligence, which means what you do is for money.
	The CIA calls it MICE.
	People defect for what's called MICE, M-I-C-E, money, ideology, conscience, or ego.
	And we'll catch them one way or another.
	Usually money, sometimes ideology.
	In that order?
	No.
	No, I don't think so.
	I think it's mere coincidence that the acronym spells the word mice.
	Like Hanson, although he got, you know, the handsomely defected FBI guy, he defected.
	It seemed like money, but it wasn't so much money.
	It was for ego.
	The guy just thought he was better than everybody else.
	Same way with Elder James.
	It was ego.
	The guy just thought he was better than everybody else.
	He couldn't be caught, and it was a big game, and also his money with him.
	The CIA never noticed that.
	This guy was making $50,000 or $60,000 a year.
	His credit card bills alone, which he paid in cash for $30,000 a month, he paid cash for an $850,000 house in, I think it was in McLean, and he drove a brand new Jaguar every year, and he dressed in, I don't know if they were Armani suits, but they were of that level.
	Somebody should have noticed.
	Yeah, somebody should have noticed, but you know, it's one of the, we were talking earlier, it's one of the downsides of living in a free and open society.
	Oh, by the way, you know, I'm sitting on television, this is being called a massive intelligence failure, and I suppose it is.
	What's it like?
	Tonight, this morning, in the CIA, and since this has happened, what's it like?
	I know there's a lot of shake-ups going on, and a lot of pressure on the White House and Congress to change the level of playing field.
	I mean, it's like playing a football game, and other guys have got full pads, and they've got 50 guys on their squad.
	You've got two or three guys wearing no pads, and you can only run backwards on one foot with one eye closed.
	Well, how are you going to win that game?
	You're not.
	you know so the uh... cia civil take that as congress please pick up but we
	don't want to trample on anybody's competition right to pick up the blinders
	let us play the game the way these
	i won't say bastards of radio but i already have ladies guys are playing a lot but level playing field
	and we will win all i believe will win two uh...
	The question is, at what cost, both domestically and where we have to go after him.
	You said we've got to get our hands dirty.
	To me, that means we've got to go in on the ground, probably.
	Yep.
	They're doing it right, in my estimation.
	And again, I'm just a novelist.
	I'm an observer of this.
	I'm not the mover and shaker.
	But they're doing it right.
	They're not sending in massive ground force.
	They're only going to send in some elite squad.
	I know some guys were sealed in the field.
	The UDT Museum is just 10 miles south of my house, which is an amazing place.
	You see the list on the wall of the guys, the UDT guys who won the Congressional Medal of Honor.
	At any rate, this is what we need.
	We need this Northern Alliance to give us intelligence where Osama might be hiding.
	We've got to track this guy down, pull a bullet between his eyes.
	I'd like to bring him home to trial.
	Put a bullet behind it, between his eyes, turn around, get out.
	Alright, I've had some callers who have said, fine, we kill Osama Bin Laden, then what?
	Somebody just takes his place?
	No.
	No?
	Not at that level.
	Absolutely not at that level.
	I mean, let's say Civil War.
	Somebody had got a lucky shot and killed Ulysses S. Grant or killed Robert E. Lee.
	It would have changed the entire war.
	Somebody kills Patton.
	Somebody kills Rommel at the beginning.
	of the African campaign.
	Somebody killed Adolf Hitler in 1938.
	No, no, no.
	Things would be far different.
	This man is charismatic.
	He's got bajillions of dollars.
	No, he's the glue and the brains that hold us together.
	Yes, this place, Al-Qaeda, would not fall apart, but it sure wouldn't be the same, nowhere near the same organization.
	Amnesty International says there are 10,000 terrorist organizations in the world today.
	There's only a handful, I mean a small handful, three or four, maybe five, including Bin Laden's organization, that are willing to do suicide attacks.
	And that's how you, that's how these guys win this game.
	Sure, hard to stop anybody who's willing to die.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Some of the best security service in the world couldn't keep, was a baggy and alive when a guy just came in and pumped a few rounds into his back.
	The guy was willing.
	He didn't kill him, but he was willing to die.
	Willing to die for his cause.
	That's all it takes.
	They're very hard to stop, of course.
	They're almost impossible to stop, but how do you stop?
	We've got a 3,000 mile border with Canada, let's say.
	We only have 200.
	Customs agents guarding that border.
	That's our country.
	We're open.
	That's what makes us so great.
	If we stop that, they've already won.
	That's right.
	If we completely collapse into a police state, then they win.
	That's right.
	There was not much street crime and terrorism in Nazi Germany.
	Another place, a more benign example, in the small principality of Monaco.
	Yes.
	It's just, you know, like the size of a small city.
	Though, Monaco and Monaco are the same thing.
	It's just a teeny little place.
	And every street corner in this little principality, there's a closed-circuit television monitor.
	Every street corner.
	And all those are fed back to a police headquarters, monitoring headquarters.
	And there's a bank of television monitors, and the police there monitor every street corner 24 hours a day.
	Ain't no crime in Monaco.
	Well, I went... You want that?
	I went to Super Bowl last year.
	And they took those pictures?
	They scanned every face that moved through the aisle.
	Did that make you feel spooky?
	It violated Big Brother.
	Yeah, it did.
	I got home and that news was breaking and I said, wow.
	Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
	Be careful, you know, that your solution isn't worse than the problem.
	There's an old Chinese curse.
	And it says, may you live in interesting times.
	This is interesting.
	It doesn't get much more interesting than that.
	This morning I'm seeing headlines saying law enforcement authorities are arresting ten Middle Eastern men in three states Wednesday on charges of fraudulently obtaining licenses to transport hazardous materials.
	It says they may have connections to the 19 hijackers of Saddam.
	Out here in Florida, in a little town called Belle Glade, it's in the interior of the state.
	It's a farming community where there's a lot of crop dusters.
	After on some of these other guys who died, who, you know, were flying airplanes that flew under the Trade Towers and all that, they were very insistent on wanting to know all about crop testing.
	Well, I want to tell you something, and this is again, when we talked earlier, and I talked to a producer earlier today or yesterday, or whatever it was, about coming on the show.
	I'm not coming.
	I'm not going to talk to you, God bless you.
	I'm not coming on the show as an advertising means or touting my books, right?
	That's not why I'm here.
	I'll do that for you.
	Okay.
	But a brand new book came out this June in hardcover.
	It's called Eden's Gate.
	Oh?
	And in it I've got a terrorist attack with germ warfare over Washington using agricultural eggplants.
	Oh my God.
	I gotta stop.
	I tell you what, I gotta stop because I'm going to start writing love stories or something.
	Yeah, uh, it's like you're predicting the future.
	Alright.
	No, it's that, uh, it's the future I don't want to predict.
	I'm just... I hear you.
	David, hold on.
	We're at the top of the hour.
	We'll be right back.
	David Hagberg, my guest, his book, Joshua's Hammer.
	Check it out on my website.
	It's a really good book.
	Believe me.
	You're listening to Arc Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 2001.
	Listen to me in the middle of a dry bay Hear me rising from the withdrawal of time
	I'm dancing, baby, on a shoulder.
	Trying to cut my losses in time.
	Everything, always wanting more.
	I love to live in the dark. I can't stand what's happening.
	Everything, always wanting more. It ain't getting longer.
	I'm a bad boy. I'm a bad boy.
	I'm a bad boy.
	I can feel it coming in the air tonight. Hold on.
	And I've been waiting for this moment for all my life. Hold on.
	you Can you feel it crawling in the air tonight?
	Oh Lord, Oh Lord Well they told me you were drowning
	You're listening to Arc Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM, from September 26th, 2001.
	My guest is David Hegbert.
	He wrote a prophetic novel, an incredible novel, called Joshua's Hammer.
	All about the CIA, Osama Bin Laden, and a nuclear weapon.
	That book is clear for you to pick up for a song, really, if you go to my website.
	Simply go to tonight's guest info, click on the book cover there, it'll take you right over to Amazon.com, where it's $7.19, the discounted price.
	I'm reading it myself, and it's a winner, believe me.
	If you like Clancy, you're gonna just love Hagberg.
	We're talking about what's happened in New York, and about Osama Bin Laden, and a whole lot of stuff.
	We'll get right back to it in a moment.
	We'll stay right there.
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	Visit coasttocoastam.com to sign up.
	Now let's go back to the night of September 26th, 2001, on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	Once again, to Florida in the middle of the night, and David Hagberg.
	David, if we go to Afghanistan, or chase him into one of the Russian republics, where he may be, and put a bullet between Uh, Bin Laden's eyes, uh, will that, that, it'll slow it down.
	It won't stop it, will it?
	I think, as we were talking, uh, before the break, I think that, um, it will fragment the hell out of the organization.
	Um, there may be, instead of 10,000, uh, um, terrorist organizations in the world, there may be 10,200.
	Uh, they'll each wander off into their own direction.
	I understand that this guy is so bright and he's such a sticking part.
	Remember the BCCI Bank scandal of some years ago?
	I just saw it roll on CNN today that he had something to do with bringing that back down.
	Yeah, well, not so much that he brought it down, he brought it back up.
	The BCCI Bank were making questionable loans and all that, and it was being funded by a lot of pretty wealthy Arab investors.
	And some of that money was being funneled into what would be questionable causes.
	And when the bank fell apart, the Arab gentleman, the financial backer, says, we need some sort of financial institution to help continue funding some of these organizations.
	And the man they asked to put it all back together was none other than Osama Bin Laden.
	He's a very bright guy.
	If he falls, his organization is going to fragment.
	It's going to splinter around.
	We're going to have to go.
	You were mentioning that some guys were arrested in Seattle or something for trying to get trucker's licenses to Hazmat.
	Several states, actually.
	Well, Will Wyde, we've got our law enforcement officers arrested, what, pushing 400 people, and there's another 300 or 400 on the wanted list.
	And that's a pretty big dent in the majority of these organizations.
	There are supposedly 10,000, according to Amnesty International, 10,000 organizations, but there are probably less than 100 that are really super effective, like Al-Qaeda, like Hamas.
	There are a number of PLO splinter organizations.
	These are the real dedicated, fanatical people willing to die.
	By the way, they get that from Japanese samurai philosophy?
	Yes, of course.
	It differs fundamentally from Western philosophy.
	In the West, we say if something is worth doing, it's worth doing right.
	Yes.
	We all understand that.
	We're all more familiar.
	Sure.
	Japanese Bushido, and now the Arabs have picked this up, the terrorists have picked this up, their philosophy is if something is worth doing, it's worth dying for.
	Can we go put this bullet between his eyes legally?
	We have some rules against assassination, right?
	Yeah, we do.
	And as a matter of fact, it's interesting to note that it wasn't Cheney.
	It might have been Rumsfeld or somebody.
	One of them up there was talking with Bush.
	I know it was Colin Paul, and he said, it was an outstanding question, and he said, we are looking at those laws right now.
	I don't know if there's a law, I think it was an executive, a presidential executive order, a direction to his, I mean the CIA is an executive branch organization, and I think they're going to revise something.
	Now we're getting on shaky grounds.
	I think, you know, thou shalt not kill.
	Well, does that mean we don't declare war on Germany or on Nazi Germany?
	I mean, at what point do we keep turning the other cheek?
	We're running out of cheeks.
	That's the problem.
	And if it's illegal, in my novels, the guy's going to do it anyway.
	And when he got finished, they might put him in jail or slap his hand or something or whatever.
	They wouldn't find him.
	In your novel, At one point, a CIA agent, in a meeting with Bin Laden that he later pays for, is handed a 12-digit number that represents a nuclear device that was in Russia, or a Russian republic.
	Now, the obvious message from Bin Laden back to the CIA was, hey guys, I've got one.
	Today's world, we hear an awful lot of things about lax Russian security for their weapons.
	We hear that some weapons may already have left some of the Russian republics and may be already in the hands of somebody like Bin Laden.
	Is that possible?
	Oh, absolutely possible.
	You asked earlier in the show about Maybe it was earlier when we were talking about doing research.
	I've been doing this for maybe 30 or 40 years.
	Along the line, I read a weekly magazine called Jane's Defense Weekly.
	Sure.
	Anybody who's involved in the business knows this.
	They talked about a year ago about Bin Laden offering $30 million to somebody to a Russian weapons depot.
	Maybe even in Tajikistan, where I talk about my book.
	In fact, my editor, who is also a writer and a good friend of mine, has written a book that will be published fairly soon called The Nuclear Yard Sale at the End of History or something like that.
	The Nuclear Yard Sale at the End of History?
	You're right.
	All these Russian breakaway republics.
	They left a lot of nuclear weapons, and some of them are guarded in tin shacks with locks that are broken that don't work and nobody's around, and just go in and pick it up at your peril, the radioactive material, and take it home with you.
	He posits that there used to be one or two nuclear states, now there's a whole bunch.
	I mean, Brazil has probably got nukes.
	Israel, Pakistan, and India.
	The list is pretty big now.
	Enemies to deliver them.
	I was doing a book not so long ago where I got the North Koreans.
	We're starving to death.
	The North Koreans have a nuclear weapon and a three-stage mission to deliver it.
	My publisher called and said, David, nobody would buy it.
	A week later, the North Koreans Uh, popped off a three-stage missile right over Japan, and the missile was big enough that they could have put a small object in low Earth orbit.
	Good Lord.
	Yeah, and this is a country that's starving to death, but by God, they've got money for their nuclear weapons.
	And Pakistan openly has told the world, now Pakistan is our pals, which I'm skeptical of telling, Pakistan openly told the entire world that once we get a nuclear weapon, and they have one now, it will be an Islamic weapon.
	Well, can there be any question that somebody who would do what just happened in New York would not even hesitate to light a fuse on a nuke, if he could?
	Yes and no.
	Now we come into an even more difficult question of perception and philosophy.
	Sixty-five years ago or so, the United States was the only country ever to drop nuclear weapons on another country, right?
	Right.
	It was a country we had declared war upon, and they'd kill a lot of our people and all that.
	We were facing a very costly invasion.
	And we are still, 65 years later, being vilified for that act.
	So, people who are countries or people who own nuclear weapons, that in itself is usually good enough to allow them to sit at the head of the table.
	Well, this is for a sane person.
	Yes, I know.
	You know, the question is, we were talking earlier, if he's sane or insane, tough question to answer, he would do more By using a nuclear weapon as a bargaining chip.
	Far more than he would by lighting the thing off in a big city somewhere.
	Sure.
	You would think that.
	Whether he is rational enough to understand this.
	He's smart enough to understand.
	I don't know whether he's rational enough or whether he's dropped into a depth of some sort of believing his own self aggrandizement.
	But I want to throw one more thing at you, Art, to think about.
	And this is something else.
	I wish you'd finish this book, because I hate telling you some of this stuff, but what happens if we got Osama Bin Laden, who's motivated, who finds out, who discovers that he's dying?
	One last hurrah, one last... You've got not a thing to worry about.
	I have come to that part of the book, actually.
	Okay, good.
	All right.
	The cancer, right?
	Yeah.
	And right now, since he's been walking with a cane lately, I think that was in Jane's or some, one of the publications I read that they were thinking that maybe kidney problems, could be cancer.
	Nobody knows yet.
	But he's not walking as sprightly as he once upon a time was, not too long ago.
	Well, if he really only wants us dead, then that's a pretty good way to begin the party.
	Yeah, it sure is.
	And it is really possible that he may already have or be about to get, any time, a nuclear weapon.
	Well, he sure is.
	Not for lack of trying.
	He may already have it, and this could be a precursor.
	I don't want to scare the hell out of people, and I think the United States We're doing the kinds of things that we need to do.
	There was a, excuse me, Von Clausewitz, the big German war philosopher, there was a Chinese philosopher who studied war.
	His name was Sun Tzu, T.S.U.' 's last name, and he said, and he was quite bright, and Von Clausewitz probably studied his writing, he said, know your enemy, know yourself, and you'll always win.
	I hope that real life turns out the way your books do, but I'm a little concerned.
	I'm very concerned.
	I would never, you know, I just never would have imagined, short of reading a novel like yours, that this kind of thing really could happen.
	The pictures of the planes going into the buildings, it was totally surreal.
	It was like you were watching something of Armageddon or something.
	Like watching something out of somebody's novel.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Yeah, some crazy fiction writer's weird imagination.
	and told another friend i can't make this stuff up that's not from in the real world is that when the wall
	came down berlin wall came down my book for all mostly early books are about the
	cold war and russia the evil empire united states
	right what i call we have our superman complex which is to justice in american
	way and i really believe that I believe that the United States should be benevolent policemen, but that's another big, long thing.
	When the wall came down, I had many friends call and write and say, well, what are you going to do if the wall is down?
	You've got no enemy.
	I said, oh, no, au contraire.
	We have enemies all over the place, and we're going to have a lot more.
	I said, this is, if there's a devil's playground, this is the novelist era.
	Thriller writer's era, it just beggars the imagination.
	Isn't it possible that the incredible success of this attack is going to embolden others?
	Absolutely.
	And it depends upon our rapid response, our decisive response.
	Again, Florida, we don't call them cockroaches, we call them palmetto bugs to make it so the tourists don't get too upset.
	You see a palmetto bug, you don't just scare it away, you kill it right now, otherwise it's going to go elsewhere and multiply and it's going to come back.
	And that's what we need to do.
	We need to stomp out these cockroaches, if you will.
	Right away.
	Right away.
	While we're sending incredible amounts of force overseas right now, stationing them around Afghanistan, no doubt, as best we can, the planes, all the best we have, and we're calling up the reserves, and we're getting this massive, massive force ready for something.
	And the American people are probably going to expect something rather spectacular.
	Is that going to be in the picture?
	Are we going to turn those camps to dust?
	Well, again, it's not going to be quite as easy as... I always want to be able to give you these real neat, tidy answers like I have in my books.
	First of all, the Brits, the British government, fought in Afghanistan from about 1820 to maybe 1920, somewhere in that era.
	And there were massacres and stuff, and I left with a tail between the legs.
	The Russians, these are tough.
	Battle-hardened soldiers who had no mercy.
	These guys were tough.
	They went in for ten years, and a modern army got chewed up by a little rag-tag band.
	It was about 100,000, I guess.
	Yes.
	If we go into a ground war in Afghanistan, we will get chewed up.
	One Afghani farmer, when they had that air raid, the Northern Alliance popped a couple of bombs into the airport in Kabul.
	He looked, and somebody said, well, if America's attacking, and he said, well, Won't make any difference.
	We have nothing to lose.
	We have nothing, so if they bomb, and one of the, somebody in the Defense Department says, we're going to bomb Afghanistan up to the Stone Age.
	Up to the Stone Age.
	Yeah, up to the Stone Age.
	Yeah, they're pretty... No, we need to go after, we need to go after bin Laden, personally, and his camps and his followers.
	Unfortunately, part of that, which is why I think Pakistan has kind of jumped in afraid to help out, A lot of those training camps are in Pakistan.
	Oh, are they?
	Oh, absolutely.
	They're across the border.
	Who do you think are in these?
	These Afghani refugees are streaming across the border from Afghanistan to Pakistan, right?
	Yes.
	That's where these camps, that's where these training camps are, right smack dab in the middle of the refugee camps.
	You know, it really looked like something big was going to occur pretty fast, but in the last 24 hours or so, there have been statements from the administration that nothing has happened yet because we have, I'm quoting here, a lack of credible targets.
	Now that doesn't sound very good to me.
	Well, if I were going to conduct a war, and I'm not, but if I were going to conduct a war, I don't think I would tell my general public, tell my public, my people that I'm working on this, guys.
	Something will happen.
	But I'm not going to tell you that it's going to happen tomorrow, what's going to happen the next day.
	I mean, this isn't going to be like when we bombed Baghdad with CNN, you know, live in color on TV.
	We're going to stop the war.
	We're going to have a commercial, that kind of thing.
	It's going to be quite different.
	This is... I'm watching, just like everybody else, with my mouth wide open, and watching.
	This is just the most fascinating, fascinating thing to happen.
	We've never had quite a war like this before.
	Remember when we first got... I don't know if you're old enough, but you remember when we first got into Vietnam, before anybody in this country even knew about Vietnam, which was in the early 60s?
	I was in Vietnam.
	Uh-huh, well I guess you do know about Vietnam.
	We were winning the war!
	We were winning the war if it was being allowed to fight.
	We were terrorizing the VC out there in the bush, and we were winning that way.
	Once we stopped fighting that way, once we started fighting a European war of attrition, we lost.
	The Americans didn't have the will to keep going with that.
	Well, your will has softened away pretty quickly when you have a president like Johnson.
	I have a lot of anger.
	I have.
	I had for years and years lots and lots of shame.
	It was just burning.
	See, I can get my aggressions out by writing book scenarios and having the good guys win and maybe even evil, stupid presidents or stupid military commanders get their comeuppance at the end.
	Well, as prophetic as it's been, you probably ought to take up golf.
	Well, I'm just finishing a novel now, if it turns out that... Listen, hold on.
	We'll be right back.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	Joshua Sammers, the book we're talking about.
	David Heitberger is my guest.
	He knows about Osama Bin Laden.
	He knows about the CIA.
	It's a fascinating book.
	We'll be right back.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	tonight featuring a replay of coast to coast am from september 26 2001
	travel the world and the seven seas everybody's looking for something
	some of them want to use you some of them want to get used by you
	some of them want to abuse you some of them want to be abused
	abused Sweet dreams are made of hate Who am I to disagree
	oh sweet dreams are made of hate
	who am i to disagree Some of them want to abuse you Some of them want to be
	We travel the world and the seven seas Everybody Oh, leave the love, you can't even play them easy
	Forget about the past and all your sorrows The future looks bright It will soon be yours tomorrow
	Don't ask for much I only want the best And you know it don't come easy
	I live above my control Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell's Somewhere in
	Time.
	Tonight's program originally aired September 26th.
	You're going to love Joshua's Hammer.
	I'm telling you.
	I'm reading it now, and that's why David Hagberg is here tonight.
	Because it's an absolutely, incredibly well-done book.
	You're going to love it.
	Go to my website.
	In fact, I'm going to give you a number of reasons to go to my website right now.
	Number one is, I mentioned this earlier, I got a photograph of the sun taken earlier today on the website because the sun is really having at it right now.
	I've never seen so many sunspots in my life.
	The satellite about a million miles out from Earth Takes a daily image of the sun, and I was so struck by today's image, the image up there right now, that I asked Keith to put it up under What's New, and you'll see it under What's New.
	Today's sun image.
	You have never seen the sun go as berserk as it is right now.
	The numbers surpass what they said was the peak of the sunspot cycle for cycle number 23.
	So something's going on with the sun.
	If you want to see what it looks like right now without having to actually look at it, You can on my website.
	Number two, Tom Clancy's remarks, allegedly made by Tom Clancy, that I read a few days ago.
	That's up on the website now.
	Number three, tonight's guest info contains a picture of the front of Joshua's Hammer.
	And if you'll just click on that, it will take you to Amazon.com, where you can get it for a song.
	Boy, I'll tell you, those people are going to go belly up.
	But in the meantime, it's a great bargain for you.
	Maybe I shouldn't say that.
	Maybe they won't.
	I don't know.
	I don't know how they can discount books the way they do.
	This is a fascinating book.
	You're going to absolutely love it.
	Rarely do I ever make this kind of recommendation for a book.
	But, I mean, if you're a Clancy lover, this is just... Well, Dean Kuntz said of this author, if you're looking for thrillers with international intrigue, Hagberg is a major find.
	And he sure is.
	You're going to love this.
	All right, all of that said, one more item.
	Keith is putting it up right now.
	Tomorrow night, I am going to bring Major Ed Dames on.
	He is a remote viewer, as you know, technical remote viewer.
	And we've got a link to his website right now.
	If you want to see some really frightening information, you're going to want to take a look at the link.
	Just go to the website for guest info tomorrow night and look at Ed Dames' website.
	Major Ed Dames.
	And look at what he has said about what he sees about what's going on with Osama Bin Laden and this whole thing.
	Pretty frightening stuff.
	I debated whether we should even air it, but we are going to tomorrow night.
	if you want a sneak peek at what i'm talking about it along with everything
	else i've mentioned is on my website at artbell.com right now
	now let's go back to the night of september 26 2001 on artbell somewhere in time
	so Well, where was I?
	I think I was saying, David, that you probably ought to take up golf or something.
	It really must be unnerving, I mean, just one after another after another, to write what almost appears to be prophecy.
	Yeah, sometimes it is very weird.
	As you used the word surreal earlier tonight, and it is surreal.
	I hate to say it's not surprising, but I've been, as we talked about earlier, I've been reading about this stuff for so long, the Foreign Affairs Journal, just magazines and newspapers, New York Times, the James Defense Weekly, and it doesn't take very long, it doesn't take a genius, I don't have anything but, which is proof in the pudding, it doesn't take a genius to see trends.
	Now, I see things maybe a little differently than, let's say, somebody in government, somebody with their finger on a military button.
	I see things through the eyes of a storyteller, a novelist.
	I want to tell you a story.
	I want you to put your feet up, grab a beer, glass of wine, or whatever, and suspend your disbelief and come along with me for a few hours.
	There's good guys, there's bad guys, and the good guys will always win.
	The only difference between my books and the other books is that I'm using real world situations, the real McCoy out there.
	And so what, if you've got a thousand monkeys in a room with a thousand typers, sooner or later, at a given time, they'll write the Encyclopedia Britannica.
	I know, but they rarely will do it twice in a row.
	Rarely.
	Let me read something very, very quickly.
	It's a list.
	Jihad, by the way, is a holy war.
	World Islamic Front, Jihad against Jews and Crusaders, Islamic Change Movement, Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, Armed Islamic Movement, Committee for the Defense of Legitimate Rights, Islamic Army for the Liberation of Holy Places.
	It goes on on Popular Arab and Islamic Conference.
	These are just a few, and this list is like a book long, of organizations that all hit Absolutely hate the West.
	We're the satans.
	Well, let me tell you something, David.
	Last night, I've been in open lines since this occurred pretty much, but last night something happened.
	I began getting calls, David, last night from people who I guess you would have to call them pacifists or actually haters of America.
	And they don't want anything else done.
	A lot of them say if we go after them, it's just going to be worse.
	They're going to hit us even harder.
	There's fear out there.
	Serious fear.
	Listen to this.
	I'll read you just a small part of three emails I got today.
	Mr. Bell, America is an evil nation that continually shakes its fist at God.
	Foremost, the slaughter and butchery of innocent babies every day.
	This is a heinous crime which the media will not address.
	It is a moral evil and evil that the morally degenerate cannot address.
	The hottest places in hell reserve for those In time of moral crisis, to remain neutral, America not only deserves what happened in New York, but it deserves more.
	God will use infidels and general crazies to punish us more and more.
	The attack on America is nonsense.
	It is no more than America's foreign policy chickens coming home to roost, and so forth.
	Or this, I will cut right to the chase, it's not our war.
	I get so tired of hearing you and other radio personalities referring to the attacks on the World Trade Center as an attack on America.
	It ain't so.
	The Arabs attacked the World Trade Center because they felt they could kill a lot of Jews there.
	The real frustrating thing now is how you and the rest of the media have spread this notion that America was attacked when nothing could be further from the truth.
	That kind of thing, David.
	I wasn't going to kill a bunch of Jews.
	I think I would have dropped a couple of airliners downtown Tel Aviv.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Or I hate to say it, you know, sort of tongue-in-cheek, downtown Miami Beach.
	But there's a lot of that out there right now, and it's growing, David, as... There were Arabs, there were a lot of Arabs and Muslims in the World Trade Center.
	There was, what, 80 different nationalities.
	That's right.
	I don't know how to answer that question.
	I'm not making fun, you know, God help me, I'm not making fun of anybody's religion.
	I'm not making fun of Islam.
	I'm not making fun of Zoroastrianism.
	I'm not making fun of snake handlers in eastern Tennessee.
	None of that.
	I have my own beliefs in their mind.
	But as soon as you begin to talk about killing innocent people, it's like Somebody who's against abortion.
	I don't want to get into that subject, but somebody who's against abortion because it's murder, then goes and kills abortion clinic workers.
	Right.
	I'm having a lot of trouble with that.
	Okay, so maybe it's not war, and maybe it's just, and probably not, it's just fanatics.
	Who wiped out the World Trade Center, and there's more.
	I don't think there's so much killing people as there was.
	They're hitting on a symbol of the United States.
	Golden Gate Bridge, Statue of Liberty, World Trade Towers, the Capitol Building.
	These are all places.
	White House.
	White House, yeah.
	Okay, what do we do?
	Turn our cheek and say we deserve that?
	Some say that.
	Does that mean Jeffrey Dahmer, remember this crazy guy who was killing people, and his cannibalism and everything else in Milwaukee?
	Yes.
	He's a bad guy, right?
	Yes.
	Would it have justified going and, let's say, brutally murdering his mother?
	No.
	No, I don't think so.
	And it's the logic that one does not follow the other.
	Well, that is the line, if there is one, between us.
	I mean, that's a very important line.
	Thank you.
	We don't target civilians.
	They do that.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	We've got some calls, and I hope you're up for it.
	Absolutely.
	All right, let's see what's out there.
	First time caller on the air with David Hackberg.
	Hi.
	Hey, how are you doing?
	Hey, Dave, I've got a question for you.
	Go ahead.
	I'm a Special Forces member, alright?
	I'm out of First Group, and I get flash calls all the time.
	I have her off you, sir.
	Unfortunately, six weeks ago, I had a bad jump, and I'm getting repaired on my knee, and I can't wait to get into this fight.
	Personally, I'm trying to figure out how you get all this information, because our flash news, such as Libodan being sick right now, or a possibility of having a disease, is like your storytelling, not storytelling, but A fortune teller.
	What's going on in the world?
	Are you, like, connected with the agency at all?
	Well, I'm not.
	I am, but I'm not.
	I'm connected with some people who are CIA, who give me the tone and flavor of what's going on.
	That's one.
	Yeah, you're obviously connected.
	You read his books.
	And number two, I read all the available literature.
	You understand, in our free society, you won't learn how to make a nuclear weapon.
	Just go to the library and look it up.
	They're going to show you how to do it.
	So I take what I can get out of real-world news services, sources like James Defense Weekly, Uh, talking with C.I.A.
	people, or ex-C.I.A.
	people, and right down the road from me, about ten miles away, is the SEAL UDT Museum.
	And I hang out there a lot, talk a lot.
	I have some, know some people who were SEALs, and Bill Terrell's son is a SEAL, lives just south of here, or was a SEAL.
	And so all I do is get the flavor.
	The wrist, honest to God, it's as easy as I make it up.
	But I make it up, it's fiction.
	I make it up based on On real-world happenings, and if I were in a position, let's say command, then this is the things I would be saying and doing, and sometimes it's correct, sometimes it's not so correct.
	All right, Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	That guy, the last guy I called, my hat's off to him, man.
	These guys are like firemen.
	They put their butts on the line.
	That's it.
	With David Hagberg, where are you calling from, please?
	Yes, hi, from Iowa.
	Okay.
	Uh, just a note before we get into this.
	Uh, the sunspots are caused by electromagnetism, which could be a collective emotion.
	Okay.
	Anyway.
	Okay.
	All the emotion that's going on on Earth right now, that can cause Earth changes.
	Okay.
	David?
	Yes, ma'am?
	Um, Iraq must have the bomb, or they would not have had the balls to attack America.
	Afghanistan, they're trying to lure us there so we could lose.
	But the deal is it's all coming out of Iraq when it comes right down to it.
	Why do you think he gets upset when we go near it?
	Why do you think he wants us out of Saudi Arabia?
	Why do you think Iran says, hey, we're neutral?
	You know, you're exactly right.
	And I think it's all, it's like if there's United States of the Arab world, I guess that you're talking about that.
	And this is all so interrelated.
	When Pakistan developed a nuclear weapon, they said, once we have a nuclear weapon, it'll be an Islamic bomb.
	And everybody over there is helping everybody else.
	Now, on the flip side, we help England, we help Canada, we are helping Mexico.
	We've got an enclave there, they have their enclave over there.
	But notice, nobody's declared I want to say, nobody's really declared all out war.
	As mad as Saddam Hussein hates us, he is rabid to sell his oil to us.
	Right?
	They still want the Almighty.
	They hate us, and they still want the Almighty dollar.
	There are more American $100 bills in circulation outside the United States than inside the United States.
	In Moscow, for instance, there are two 747s.
	Honest to God, two 747s.
	Packed to the rafters with American $100 bills go each day to Moscow.
	My, my.
	That's because they don't have checks and paper money is worthless.
	I mean, you know, paper trails, electronic transfers, everything that's a cash society and a $100 bill rules.
	That's the leading instrument everywhere in the world.
	It's the same in Saudi Arabia, in any of those places, Iraq, you name it.
	If you want to get something done, you can give them all the rats or whatever the currency is of that country.
	Give an American $100 bill, and you're there.
	You've got it.
	But David, that's something you can understand.
	Americans can understand that.
	They still want money.
	They want to sell their oil.
	That's good.
	That's probably not somebody who's going to use an atomic weapon.
	What scares the hell out of us about Osama is he's already shown us he just wants us dead, and that's hard to deal with.
	He wants us out of the Middle East, period.
	If we get out of the Middle East, then he says he will end the jihad.
	I don't know if I believe that, but... Well, I believe that almost every president for a long, long time now has said the United States would go to war to protect the oil flow from the Middle East, and I'm sure that is still true today.
	Absolutely.
	Can I throw a clinker?
	Can I throw a bone into a pack of dogs?
	One of Yeltsin's when I get hit?
	If every single crude oil carrier in the world, every single one in the world today, were used just to supply Japan with oil, they would have to make three trips a year just to Japan.
	Wow.
	Take that where you want to take it.
	That's my novelist brain going off in left field.
	Your caller, if she's still online, she's absolutely right.
	The emotion that is rising up around the world Yes, I don't know about sunspots, but it's an energy, a collective energy, if you will, that gets things done.
	So one way or the other.
	Actions are moved, yes.
	One way or the other.
	This will get done, all right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on here with David Hagberg.
	Where are you, please?
	This is Charlie K. Elias, Dallas.
	Dallas, all right.
	David, did you know that one of Osama's brothers was a principal in George W. Bush's early oil company here in Dauphin?
	Yeah, I wouldn't be a bit surprised.
	As a matter of fact, he has a brother who lives just maybe 50 miles south from me, or 100 miles south from me, down in Orlando.
	I mean, Lauderdale.
	He had another one up, maybe Orlando.
	He had a couple.
	But understand that the Bin Laden family, the papa, he had 50 kids.
	He has 50 kids.
	One of them is Bin Laden, Osama.
	And the Bin Laden family, the dad and everybody, is disowned publicly.
	very publicly disowned uh...
	disowned osama's the black sheep if you will uh... no i did not know specifically that was a bin laden
	this brother was later killed in a plane crash uh... also were you aware of my novelist brain wants to say
	man that's kind of I would have no doubt.
	but people do die of airplane crashes. Also, were you aware that the SAS, the British Special
	Air Service, has already been active in Afghanistan? I would have no doubt. The British have had
	a long, long history in Afghanistan. It's like we had, what, four or five years in Nam
	or whatever it was. The Brits had almost a century in Afghanistan.
	They left with their tails between their legs, and I think they would like to resolve some old wounds.
	No, that doesn't surprise me.
	SAS, by the way, is probably one of the most elite special forces in the world.
	These guys are good.
	Once for the Rockies, you're on the air with David Hegberg.
	Hi, I'm Mark Bell.
	Hi, Eric.
	This is Jeff from Washington State.
	Yes, sir.
	Yeah, for your caller from First Group, the Special Forces, D'Opresso Luber, and I hope you jump suit again.
	David, this is a great book.
	It's making the rounds with chemical officers in the Corps.
	The Army is chilling, truly plausible, and achievable, as today's situation is.
	Wow, high praise from a pro.
	Yeah, well, and this is something I wanted to ask people.
	All right, I was really disturbed by yesterday's show and people just not, you know, hiding their head in the sand.
	People don't know, who is your civil defense?
	Your organizer?
	Your lead?
	Where are your shelters?
	What do you have for personal defense?
	I would urge people to do what the, I believe it was Mr. Thompson said, do what the Red Cross does for normal civil disasters.
	Get yourself prepared.
	Support your National Guard.
	That's your home defense.
	And David, I'd like to ask you, in your own, and Art as well, in your own estimation, what do you think our national defense is like for this kind of a threat, nuclear, biological, or chemical?
	You mean our civil defense?
	That home defense is pretty crappy.
	As it turns out, my wife is the director of the Red Cross for this I hope this covers a couple of counties in this part of Florida.
	And just about a year ago, all the Red Cross chapters across the country were sent a pretty extensive bulletin, I don't know, about 20 pages long, how to deal with the after effects of a chemical, biological, or nuclear event.
	And when the Red Cross, which is a pretty, I mean, they're a pretty zippy organization, When the military goes in, the Red Cross goes in with them.
	But when you have an organization that's so big and maybe even hidebound by rules to sit up and take notice about this possibility, then you know we're taking it seriously.
	Other than that, our civil offense is absolutely flappable.
	There is no civil offense.
	You know, I thought it was a golden moment when they grounded all of the crop dusters.
	I thought, boy, you know, Our government doesn't do this kind of thing, not in my recent memory, and if they have really grounded these, then they really think there's a problem, or maybe.
	Yep, yep, yep, yep.
	But, there's an upside to this.
	I mean, looking at the glass half full rather than half empty, aren't we, isn't it really neat?
	Gentlemen, we are living in a society where the biggest thing we do is lock our car door in the parking lot of the supermarket.
	Maybe it's time for the wake-up call or something, but in my way of thinking, that's pretty damn neat.
	It is.
	Hold on.
	You good to go one more?
	Absolutely.
	If I've got about five minutes, I want to go make a cup of coffee.
	Go make a cup of coffee.
	Thank you.
	My guest is David Hagberg.
	His book is Joshua's Hammer.
	And it's a good book.
	Get it through my website.
	You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 2001.
	This is only half of what I am.
	Oh, clear to me now.
	My heart is on fire.
	I'm old like a wheel that's turning.
	I'm Dr. Dina Dow.
	I'm the girl that you gave me in the air of the sky.
	Coast to Coast AM Coast to Coast AM
	Coast to Coast AM She doesn't give you time for questions As she walks up to your room and says
	Have your father tell you the sense of which direction is completely different here?
	Why the blue-tiled walls never mark at the start, but the hint that she leads you to.
	These days, as I feel my life just walk away for I'm in the air of the camp
	Music You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 2001.
	You know, most people who are reading a book they love don't get the opportunity to pick up the phone and talk to the author of the book they're reading and love.
	I've got that opportunity.
	I'm doing that tonight.
	David Hagberg is my guest.
	His book is Joshua's Hammer.
	And it's a killer.
	Believe me, it's a killer.
	You can obtain it by going to my website, artbell.com, and then just clicking on the book cover under tonight's guest info.
	it'll take you to amazon.com where you can't resist the price.
	In fact, I've got a little information on that for David.
	We'll get to that in a moment.
	In the meantime, your calls and your questions are welcome.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Looking for the truth?
	You'll find it on Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
	What's happening out there?
	I sense it.
	People sense it.
	They call the program.
	There's something going on.
	I can't put my finger on it, but I feel it.
	How about you?
	It is not our imagination, and the best minds of our time are telling us, in no uncertain terms, that we are living the greatest number of crises ever to face humankind, and they're telling us, George, that we've got to act, or not much else is going to make any difference.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an on-going presentation of Coast to Coast AM, from September 26th, 2001.
	Alright, once again, David Hackberg.
	David, do you ever wonder how Amazon.com manages to slash the prices they do on books?
	Uh, yeah.
	Well, first of all, I think you pay shipping, but it's volume.
	I mean, what do they got?
	Half a million books in the inventory?
	Something like that?
	Sure.
	I don't know if they actually warehouse the thing or if they're drop shipped from publishers, but it is definitely a volume.
	Well, I know they rank books well into the hundreds of thousands.
	And your book, when we began the program tonight, was ranked a very respectable 1,294.
	Okay.
	Your book at this moment, this hour, has come to 374.
	Ooh!
	I'll tell you what, before this event, it got down to about 100 at some point, but then it had its runners up around 20,000.
	It's been back and forth between that, let's say 5,000.
	That's fantastic.
	So if you were wondering whether people were up at this hour.
	You know, I meant to say this, too.
	I don't know what's wrong with me, or maybe there isn't anything wrong with me, but I'm getting addicted to this late-night radio.
	In fact, John Denver had a song some years ago, late-night radio.
	Take it everywhere I go.
	Yes, he did.
	I'm lonely.
	He did.
	But I mean, that telescope.
	I'm an amateur astronomy buff.
	I want that telescope, but I want that slimming product.
	I'm not a shill.
	I'm not trying to help you sell products, although if I do, fine.
	I tell you what, I'm getting addicted except for the fact that I'm not going to sleep anymore.
	I'm wide awake.
	And if I start to babble, just tell me to shut up.
	Alright, well here come the callers.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with David Hegberg.
	Hi.
	Hi, my name's Ian.
	I'm from Lexington, Kentucky.
	Hi, Ian.
	I just came across some information tonight and I wanted to let you and David know and get your own input on it.
	Sure.
	Are you in front of computers?
	Yes, I am.
	Okay, go to...
	Go to, like, Microsoft Word or Works.
	Any of your, uh, word processing.
	Is this the, uh, 99 thing?
	No, actually, it's not.
	It's, uh, it's a Q33, space... I'm sorry, Q33.
	Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm familiar with it, but go ahead and tell everybody about it.
	Yeah, well, you put in, uh, capital Q, as in quiet, 33, space, New York.
	Which was the ID, uh, ident, uh, one of the planes, right?
	That's right.
	Okay.
	Q33, base, New York.
	Q33.
	Space New York.
	Oh, Space New York.
	Okay.
	You type that in.
	You go to about a 48 font.
	Right.
	And then you go to your style of your font, where you can pick Times, Roman, Numeral.
	Right.
	Go on down to the first wingding.
	It's those funny symbols.
	Yeah, the wingding font, yeah.
	Right.
	And you change the Q33 New York to that, and it shows a pretty startling few images.
	What does it show?
	Well, the Q represents an airplane.
	The 33 represents two buildings.
	And represents a skull and crossbones, and the Y represents a star, David.
	Wow.
	There's been a very great deal of symbolism surrounding this whole thing, David, and a lot of it is not an accident.
	Is there anything symbolic about September 11th, other than 9-1-1?
	No, and 1-1 and then 1-9 is the area country code, I think, for Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia or something like that.
	But we are in the last, I don't know, ten years or so, maybe the whole world, but especially the United States, has come to an era of spirituality, let's say.
	We've got drive-by shootings, now we've got airplanes crashing, we've got City of McDonald's getting blown away, you've got road rage, and people are becoming more spiritual.
	And when they do, spirituality takes all sorts of forms.
	Church attendance is way up, divorce rate is way down.
	crime rates are down and numerology and these sorts of things are on the rise because people
	are trying to find meaning.
	Yeah, that's the word I wanted, meaning.
	They're trying to find what the hell does this all mean?
	I explore it in my writing.
	The writing is like the shrink's couch.
	I can work out all these things, whether it be aggressions or... I was an abused child.
	I was a stepfather that beat the hell out of me.
	And so I write these violent books that tend to be violent, and yet I'm one of the most... I'm just a very non-violent person in real life.
	A friend of mine who was the county sheriff is the same way.
	He was beat up as a kid, and he's now the county sheriff.
	The guy weighs about 7,000 pounds, and he's a big guy.
	And he's the sheriff.
	He's a non-violent man.
	One rule in our house is no hitting.
	And so that's my reaction.
	And for a lot of people right now in this country, it's spirituality in a lot of different forms.
	That's right.
	I find it fascinating.
	So do I. Wild Card Line, you're on the air with David Hackberg.
	Hi.
	This is Nancy from Honolulu, Hawaii.
	Hi, Nancy.
	Um, first Art, I'd like to tell you something I think would help your back if you would get a think tank.
	It's a, um, where you put a hundred pounds of salt water in it and you float, and there's a book in the library called the Book of Floatation.
	Yeah, I thought swimming would be good anyways.
	And all the NFL players are using this, and I really think it would help you.
	Okay, thank you dear.
	And, um, I would...
	I really, I have a few things to say because I've been trying to get you on the phone ever since this happened and I really feel in my heart that the people that died, we have to look at it in a different way, that heaven, Daniel Brinkley has been there.
	Heaven is a beautiful place and they're probably better off than us if we're going to have war.
	But every religion we have on this planet, even I talked to a Muslim on the bus here before this all happened, Every religion teaches forgiveness and love.
	Jesus said, forgive us for they know not what they do.
	And I think that if you would have Dr. Michio Kaku on your program... No, no doubt I will.
	And have him ask him if that's a way we can go to the next level.
	Well, I do have a guest now.
	Would you like to ask him a question?
	Well, just one more thing.
	They found out that Roosevelt knew Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked.
	And they knew on 60 Minutes, just two weeks ago, they were bringing Kissinger up on things for assassinating the guy in Chile.
	We do not know what our government has done behind our backs.
	And I wanted to ask your guests.
	If he feels that if we all, like, 15 minutes before your program, or 15 minutes, I mean, 15 seconds after your program, if we would all pray for world peace and say, let this happen for the good of all, if he thinks that would help.
	Alright, well, there you have it.
	I'll tell you what, it couldn't hurt.
	It couldn't hurt, but on the other hand, that brushes close to some of the calls I've had that think that any response we'll make will either make it worse, Or get us attacked even more?
	In my mind, and I guess I'm just a war hawk, I don't know.
	If we don't do anything, if we just leave this alone, then, you know, just as with Germany, appeasement is only going to get you one thing, and that's going to be more of what just happened.
	What do you think, David?
	I tell you what, Art, we're all saying a mouthful, all squirting around some issue that I think fundamentally is, is there evil on earth?
	Yes, there is evil on earth.
	How do we deal with evil?
	Do we turn our back on it?
	No.
	We have to deal with it religiously.
	Yes, let's pray, but we also need to deal with it in a secular way.
	In a secular manner as well.
	If I have cancer, I am going to pray to my maker to please help me through this.
	Now if that means I'm going to die and go to heaven, well that's the way it goes.
	And that probably in chemotherapy and radiation.
	But I'm also going to be heading down to my nearest oncology center and saying, hey guys, heaven is wonderful, but I ain't done yet.
	I'd like a little longer run at this.
	And I think there is a God, and there undoubtedly is, He has given me the free will to make these kind of choices
	to fight evil head on.
	I don't know if it's a semantic issue or whatever.
	Pray.
	By God, pray because it can't hurt.
	That's right.
	Ease for the Rockies.
	You're on the air with David Hagbard.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Yes, Art.
	This is Brooke calling from Vermont.
	Yes, Brooke.
	It's always a pleasure and privilege to speak with you and be on your program.
	Thank you.
	I have some information for you and David regarding symbolism.
	I believe September 11th is Mohammed's birthday.
	It could very well be, yes.
	I believe I heard that on CNN.
	Also, according to Monday's Boston Globe, and my cousin lives in Boston, so I'm very conscious and aware of what's been going on in Boston, The Bin Laden family is very entrenched in Boston and has been for about 20 years.
	One of Bin Laden's brothers went to Harvard and is a graduate of Harvard and is actually a scholarship in his name at Harvard.
	And he's a very profound contributor to Harvard.
	And he actually has 51 brothers that live in Boston and one sister.
	And they were all taken from Boston by private plane a few days ago back to Saudi Arabia.
	They also have six to eight properties in Boston.
	And when this catastrophe occurred, since many people in Boston are aware of where they live, there was immense police protection at the cost of the taxpayers' expense.
	in Boston to protect them and their properties.
	Alright, I guess that's not a surprise.
	A lot of family there.
	David, isn't it probable that there are a lot of sleepers here?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Like some of the people who did what they did were sleepers.
	There's bunches more.
	There's no doubt about it.
	Does not mean they're going to go active right now or anytime soon, but they are definitely here, and short of having a police state, it's going to be a while before we dig them out, if we ever do dig them out.
	Well, if we actually begin to move militarily while we're moving now, but I mean actually go into Afghanistan or one of the Russian republics after Osama Bin Laden, based on intel that we get, if we don't get him, First time out.
	Isn't it probable that he's going to activate some more sleepers here and come back at us?
	You know, here's the call.
	If I were writing, if I was outlining a novel, I could make a case for yes, and make just as equally a good case, you know.
	Remember Muammar Gaddafi, the leader of Libya?
	Sure.
	Oh, sure.
	He was raising all sorts of hell with us.
	At some point, we bombed, we dropped some bombs and stuff in Tripoli.
	In fact, my son was in the Navy at the time, and they issued to somebody on one of the ships, came up with the silkscreening and did a t-shirt that says, what was it, the U.S.
	2, Libya 0.
	We had shot down a couple of the airplanes.
	Nobody's heard much from Muammar Qaddafi.
	Indeed not.
	So the guy, you know, the guy got the message, and he shut up.
	He quieted down.
	So would Osama do the same?
	I can probably make a better case, you know, he'll really be rabid.
	But I have a feeling that a lot of the country, a lot of the Arab countries, are disavowing him and are starting to cut off funds, the money trail.
	The only country still today who recognizes Afghanistan is Pakistan.
	And I think Yes, he may reawaken sleepers.
	He may do lots of things, but I think he's slowly but surely going to be restricted and choked off.
	Unfortunately, he's got enough personal money if he's hidden it well enough.
	Yeah, well, how do you hide... One of your commercials says, buy gold, and I agree with that.
	Gold or diamonds, you know, these are the things.
	They're valuable wherever you go.
	But he's got to get this money.
	There is a method of getting money from overseas to the United States or any other country.
	We avoid all tax laws, you avoid Western Union, you avoid all banks, you avoid everything else.
	It's perfectly secret and yet out in the open.
	You can get lots of money across.
	How?
	Well, it's real easy.
	What they have, I'm trying to think what they're called, made brokers or something like that.
	Let's say I'm in Karachi, Pakistan, and I want to send $1,000 to my uncle in New York City.
	I will go to the broker in Karachi and say, here's $1,000 I want you to send that to my uncle in New York.
	So the broker puts the $1,000 in his pocket.
	He calls a pal of his who's a broker, a similar broker in New York, and says, I got $1,000 from a guy here.
	I want you to go deliver this $1,000 in cash to this man at this address.
	And the broker over there says, yes, thank you.
	And he does it.
	Wow.
	Earned $1,000 plus commission.
	The guy in New York is just out $1,000 in his pocket.
	But he knows that sooner or later, somebody in New York will want to send $1,000 to say, let somebody in Saudi Arabia.
	And see, he'll make his money.
	And it evens out over the long run.
	And no tax laws, no nothing.
	It's real easy.
	And that's pervasive?
	Oh, yeah.
	Big time.
	Big time.
	Billions of dollars.
	Billions.
	Certainly hundreds of millions cross hands every year.
	Absolutely.
	Wow.
	All right.
	West of the Rockies.
	You're on the air with David Hagberg.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Where are you, sir?
	Very far west of the Rockies.
	Honolulu, Hawaii.
	Can I ask a question before you ask a question?
	Certainly.
	What time is it in Honolulu right now?
	It's 1026 in the evening.
	Wow, it's 426 here in Florida.
	Okay, I was wondering what the time difference was.
	I'm sorry, but go ahead, sir.
	Yes, I've listened to your show for years, KHBH 830 AM in Honolulu.
	Yes, sir.
	My question has to do with the threat of the sleepers, the terrorists that are still in this country.
	I was particularly interested in a couple of comments that were made.
	Remember the flight instructor, or the person who had the flight instructing school that trained Ata?
	Oh, yes.
	He said he didn't remember too much about him, but one thing he remembered about him was he disliked him.
	He just, he didn't know why, but he just had an inner feeling that he disliked the man.
	Yes.
	Also, James Woods apparently was on a Boston flight, and noticed that there were four Arab passengers in first class.
	And he said that they were very strange, didn't say anything, were not friendly, didn't speak to anyone, didn't accept anything from the stewardess, just stared straight ahead.
	I think that if there are terrorists, sleepers, in this country with those kinds of evil intentions, that this is how they're going to show up.
	People are going to innately dislike them, and they're going to appear... I mean, you can't have those kinds of intentions and warmly react to a puppy for instance.
	So I think if people are alert to this kind of thing, we can ferret out some of these people that just do not fit.
	My question is, when you do this, how can you turn these leads over to authorities
	without it just degenerating into sort of an amateur racial profiling?
	I don't think you can.
	Not in our society.
	I don't particularly care for Jerry Springer.
	I don't know the man, but I don't care for that style.
	of journalism, whatever you want to call it, does not make him a suspect.
	It just makes him different for me.
	I've seen people on airplanes who sit there rigidly, white knuckles,
	to the extent they have, and they're just scared of flying.
	Actually, David, there's a lot of that going on right now.
	As a matter of fact, some people have been taking off flights with the insistence of either the pilot or passengers who refuse to fly with them.
	So there's a lot of that kind of stuff going on.
	Yeah, I think so.
	I think your callers' notion is well-intended.
	That flight school, by the way, is in Vero Beach, Florida, which is where I am right now.
	And these guys use the same mail service that I use.
	And I probably bump into them.
	David, David, hold tight for a moment.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	And by the way, the International Line is open.
	I'll tell you about that in a moment.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	Stay right there.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from September 26th, 2001.
	I really wanna see you, I really wanna feel you, I really wanna feel you, I really wanna feel you.
	Really want to please you.
	Really want to see you.
	Oh, but it takes so long now.
	I really want to know you.
	I really want to go with you.
	I really wanna know you, really wanna go with you, really wanna show you love, I just wanna
	love you.
	I just wanna love you.
	Riders on the storm.
	Into this house we're born.
	Into this world we're thrown.
	Like a dog without a bone and packer out of loan.
	Riders on the storm.
	there's a killer on the road his brain is squirming like a toad
	JK Longhorn you're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier
	Radio Networks tonight an on-core presentation of Coast to Coast AM
	from September 26, 2001 if you really want to cross some time zones with us and
	date lines then wherever you are in the world we're happy to pay for
	the call and uh... it's very easy
	You go to my website, Artbell.com, and, uh, simply go to the, uh, page that lists the international phone codes.
	Dial that, and then dial the 800 number.
	And no matter where you are in the world, Europe, Asia, South America, wherever, we'll pay for the call.
	Uh, or, barring that, you can call the AT&T operator.
	Love to hear from you elsewhere in the world.
	So, let's open up that line right now.
	I'll watch it like a hawk.
	The number is 800, 8-9-3-0-9-0-3.
	Once again, that's 800-8-9-3-0-9-0-3.
	Let's hear from you.
	0903. Once again, that's 800-893-0903. Let's hear from you.
	Now let's go back to the night of September 26th, 2001, on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	You take a look at Joshua's Hammer, and if you don't think this is a prophetic book written way before the event, then I don't know.
	It's pretty frightening stuff.
	It's compelling.
	It's a page-turner.
	It's recommended from me to you personally, because I'm reading it right now, and it's awesome.
	You can go to the guest section on my website.
	And just click on Joshua's Hammer, the book cover.
	It'll take you over to Amazon.com, where you'll get a great buy on a great book.
	About 530-some odd pages long.
	That's a big, long book, isn't it?
	Yeah, it is.
	You know, my wife is not going to be able to live with me for the next week now with all these high words and prayers.
	I'm going to have such a swell head that it would be impossible to be around.
	How do you, just as a matter of curiosity, when you're writing a book like this, Obviously, there's a lot of research and all the rest of it, but from where do you pluck the concept?
	That's a tough one.
	What happens is I've taught at the local library.
	I've taught what's called a master's class in novel writing.
	I've written about 65 books.
	Part of it is how to come up with ideas, and the not-so-easy answer is, If you learn how books are put together and you learn how to outline books and you understand how to read books like a writer reads a book and so you can say, yes, I could have done that book or no, that book was beyond me, not only the research but the writing, pretty soon after just a couple of years or so, even less than that, of doing that sort of thing, you begin to look at the entire world through the eyes of a novelist or a writer so that when you read a newspaper
	When you talk to a radio talk show host or a guest, you're constantly, some portion in the back of your brain is constantly evaluating everything you hear and see and read, evaluating it as a possible story idea.
	And so I'm reading in the paper some years ago about Iran trying to buy a kilo-class submarine, and I thought, aha, there's a book.
	I've been reading a lot about Osama Bin Laden over a number of years, and I don't know why.
	I'm fascinated by people, and he's just an ultimately fascinating person.
	I've sort of watched his career, if you want to call it a career, develop, and killing and bombing and all that, and so I started to write books about him.
	So how do you come up with an idea?
	You think like a novelist, and you look at the world like a storyteller, the same way Like 50,000 years ago, the hunters all went out and one of them came back and instead of going to sleep, he painted paintings, cave drawings, to tell the story.
	Well, it's the same kind of thing.
	After a day of seeing all this insanity going on in the world, I turn around and filter it through my own bizarre, strange imagination.
	I come out with scenarios that have happy endings.
	Stephen King said that modern novelists, in America at least, were all biblical.
	We're all writing morality plays, that there's good and evil in the world, and good will win over evil.
	And I believe that strongly.
	That wasn't an easy answer, I'm sorry, because a lot of these questions, very good questions, that don't have easy answers.
	Okay, well that was about 65 books, huh?
	Yeah, 65 or 66.
	That's a lot of books.
	It is a lot of books.
	I look at the... I've got a bookcase in the living room.
	We've got about four or five thousand books in this house.
	But I look at the one bookcase in the living room, it's all my stuff, and they're in about thirteen different countries and audio tapes and all that.
	And I look and I say, I don't remember writing half of those books.
	You know, I felt like I'm tooting my own horn and patting myself on the back and breaking my arm in the process.
	But I'm pretty pleased with what I've done.
	This one's a winner.
	I sure would love to... I'd really love to have an autographed version of this.
	You got it.
	One when we're done here.
	Let's get dragged in.
	You bet.
	We've got one coming, my friend.
	Wonderful.
	All right, here we go.
	First time caller on the line.
	You're on the air with David Hagberg.
	Hi.
	Oh, yes, David.
	I'm in Santa Barbara, California, and I remember you mentioning a few hours ago a connection to Santa Barbara, California, and also you mentioned this town.
	I think it was Bowling Lawn or Bowling Green on the East Coast.
	So your question is, what is the connection, or what?
	Yes, sir, that is correct.
	Okay, he's in Santa Barbara.
	There's a book, I'm not telling anybody else's book, yes I am, but there's a book, a non-fiction book by Joseph Wodansky, it's called Bin Laden, The Man Who Declared War on America.
	This came out maybe three or four years ago, and in it he talks about the Bin Laden Organization connection, and he had, that's one of my primary research sources, He didn't have a lot of information, but he just said, I think it was Garden City, New Jersey, Santa Barbara, California, and maybe one or two other cities where we're Bin Laden banking, where Bin Laden money, not the Bin Laden family, but Osama Bin Laden, where he had some connections.
	But they're so tenuous and so well done that we have been able to seize Let's skip a few time zones here and a big line and say on the international line you're on the air, where are you please?
	From Australia.
	sat down with a bank manager and researched it something that uh... and
	but i'm scared of very well respected uh... historian alright uh... let's start with anyway let's skip a few time
	zones here and uh...
	big lines on the international and you're on the air where you please
	uh... from australia from a report of australia
	uh... and queensland uh... the east coast and gulf coast actually
	Alright, well let's try David's question and ask you what time and day it is there.
	Yeah.
	It's actually, uh, we look at the clock, 6, uh, 6.40 in the evening.
	So you're about almost 12 hours out, yeah.
	Well, but on what day?
	Uh, it's actually Thursday evening.
	Uh-huh.
	Alright, uh, there you are.
	Go right ahead.
	Well, I just wanted to say thanks very much for the opportunity of being able to call in from overseas for free, first of all, and I'm a regular listener over the internet, so I had to disconnect to call in.
	But I'm just curious in regards, rumours that I've heard in regards to the Russian black market, and the talk, rumours I've heard on the net about low-yield, suitcase-sized, I saw on the Amazon.com site there, Uh, nuclear devices that may have become available when the Russian government was in a little bit of a state of flux.
	Uh, and wondering if there's any, uh, proof to those sorts of claims.
	You're talking about sleepers and things.
	It's quite a horrific potential.
	Yeah, it's very horrific.
	Both the Russians and the Americans, another one wants to admit it, but they both, both countries, we both admitted sort of offhandedly that we each built about a hundred And they're called, I'm trying to think what they're called, hardened target demolition devices.
	They're 80 pounds maybe, you know, maybe about 30 kilograms.
	Fit in a small suitcase.
	One guy can carry them.
	And they're meant to take out bridges, dams, submarine pens, missile silos.
	You know, you can sneak up and put them in.
	And they weren't covered under any of the SALT treaties.
	Ours are made by Pantex down in, put together by Pantex down in Texas.
	And these are, I think it was the Russian Minister of Defense, before Putin said, admitted publicly, and this was in the New York Times, this was maybe four or five years ago, admitted that they had lost One hundred of these things.
	I had no idea where they were.
	Not one hundred.
	One hundred they had lost.
	Now, later, some government official within days, a Russian government official, said, no, it was nothing more than a county administration error, and my eyebrows sort of went up around the back of my neck, and I said, yeah, okay, pal.
	Yes, these weapons are are out there floating around and Jane's Defense Weekly suggested that Bin Laden has been trying to buy one and is up to 30 million U.S.
	now.
	And considering the state of the Russian economy and the breakaway from the republic's economy, if he hasn't got one, he's got a pretty fair shot at getting one.
	So, sleep well down there.
	I shall.
	I was actually, well, unfortunately, I don't know, just timely, I actually clicked on the news late night after coming back from work, and it was happening live in front of my eyes.
	It was just truly horrific to see.
	My heart goes out to all you guys over there.
	You set an excellent pace.
	I was commenting to my friends that it was so good to see, even though people were obviously running for their lives, panic-stricken, the camaraderie and the love that was shown, the critical mass that was achieved, and the people of New York.
	Yes, I remember running by the way.
	Yeah, it gave reason for your country not to have to declare martial law or anything drastic like that.
	That's right.
	Not even close.
	I know a few people over there.
	I hope you guys get this one sorted.
	All right, my friend.
	Thank you very much.
	I wish I could write like one of those countrymen, Neville Shutes, who wrote some years ago.
	He's a fabulous writer.
	On the beach, in the wet, a number of books.
	He's fabulous.
	Absolutely.
	I've read that book, I don't know how many times.
	You should try In the Wets.
	It's about Australian outback.
	They have two seasons.
	It's either in the dry or in the wets.
	I'll give it a shot.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with David Hegberg.
	Hi.
	Yes, Art and David, this is John from Golden, Minnesota.
	I agree with everyone, Art, that's called in so far.
	Both the Peace Knicks and the Warriors, actually.
	But none of them have really been, I think, balanced or comprehensive.
	The terrorists are like a crazy man in a public square with a gun who has already killed somebody.
	Put it down and we've got to shoot you.
	I think we should also go after, besides Osama, Saddam Hussein, his palaces, his military, and then give Sudan an ultimatum.
	You know, let us in to take apart your biological and chemical weapons factories or your dead meat as well.
	On the other hand, I mean, Strieber is the key and John Hogues, the interpreter of Nostradamus, I think are right.
	I think we have to do a better job of sharing the wealth and spilling the secrets on the extraterrestrials or we're going to eventually lose this war.
	The danger is, Osama is swimming in an ocean of a sect called Wahhabism, which is the official religion of Saudi Arabia and which began a couple centuries ago on the Arabian Peninsula, massacring people and generally they've been killing their moderate opponents ever since.
	But yet, of course, there's a lot of peaceful people, too.
	And 80% of the Imams in America are Wahhabis, and I think, you know, you could get a good debate going here with maybe some of them, you know, and talk about this.
	I mean, I was listening to NPR earlier today.
	All right, sir.
	Listen, we're limited on time, but I appreciate the call.
	I do want to pluck from your conversation, though, one question.
	That is, we did not go after Saddam Hussein.
	We didn't.
	We could have.
	A decision was made not to.
	If we are forced to pursue Iraq for one reason or another in this present pursuit of terrorists, and it seems logical that we would, are we going to go in and get him this time?
	Who are you asking me?
	Yes.
	Yeah, I think, well, are we or should we?
	Should we?
	Yes.
	Yeah, I don't know.
	Again, as I was talking about earlier, if we're going to do this right, we're going to have to be willing to get our hands dirty.
	That sounds like a yes.
	On the other hand, we seem to have a policy of keeping Saddam there, but just not too strong.
	In other words, keep knocking him down, but we had our reasons.
	We wanted to keep him there.
	I don't know what our reasons were, unless it was a buffer against Iran, and I don't think that's valid anymore.
	The whole question out there, the whole business the British got into with them, and the whole business with oil and everything else, it's a tangled, nasty mess that I explore in my books, but my stuff is just fiction.
	It's going to take some Roosevelt, some Churchill or Churchillian, somebody of that stature, to figure this all out.
	And some of your callers, the peaceniks, if you want to call them that, are right.
	If we go in and bomb the hell out of these people, it's going to create all sorts of other problems.
	We're going to be trading one set of problems for another, but I guess I'd rather have the other set of problems than the one we do now.
	We turn our cheek on this one, then we are wide open.
	I don't know what's going to happen next, but it will.
	There will be a next.
	I agree.
	East of the Rockies, you are now on the air with David Heckberg.
	Hi.
	Yes, good morning.
	Morning, sir.
	Where are you?
	I'm in Richmond.
	Richmond, Virginia.
	Okay.
	Yes, sir.
	Good morning, David.
	Good morning.
	How are you this morning?
	Oh, a little tired.
	Yeah, I guess.
	Now I know what time you are anyway.
	Yes.
	As the caller mentioned earlier, and I heard it mentioned to you, and not getting into numerology again, but about 9-11 being the date of the original Muhammad, the founder of the Muslim religion's birthday, I wanted to get your opinion on a belief that I have.
	Bin Laden enjoyed the martyrdom bestowed upon him after Clinton's waste of, you know, all the missiles and money and manpower, so much so that he used this vain self-suffering to create his own religion, separate and apart from the Islamic faith.
	That's probably a pretty good point.
	I think it's a very good point.
	I think it's a continually developing Uh, sort of a belief system, and he gathers people around him who, I don't know if they're violent, but I think they're people who are at the end of their tether, who say to themselves, what I'm doing right now seems to go nowhere, I need some sort of a cause, whatever it may be, and I need somebody, something to believe in, and Bin Laden seems to, you know, be
	Spitting into the wind against the gigantic evil Satan.
	Yeah, I think you are exactly right on with it, but I don't think it's a done deal yet.
	I think it's constantly evolving and constantly changing, and he'll fit his religious notions with whatever It's happening at the moment, whatever suits him.
	So a new religion, sort of?
	Yeah, it's sort of a new religion.
	I mean, there's bajillions of those around, and the man is definitely charismatic, and so he's got a lot of followers.
	There are people who have deified him.
	I mean, he's just about God on Earth.
	All right, we're way short on time, but let me squeeze one more in.
	What's with the Rockies?
	You're on the air with David Heidberg.
	Hi.
	Hi, this is Jim from Boise, Idaho.
	Hi, Jim.
	A couple of quick things.
	Number one, truth serum.
	We need to get some truth serum in all of these people.
	Wouldn't that be lovely?
	Tell the truth.
	Well, there's no reason not to.
	If we're in a state of war, not really, but technically, there are no constitutional rights for these people.
	There's all kinds of truth serums.
	And the same with the people that are insurgents that are going into Afghanistan.
	They could have I think that might have only limited success in that the same mechanism might occur when somebody defeats a lie detector test.
	They believe so strongly in, let's say, what they're doing that they don't consider, just assuming they kill a woman and child, an American tourist, They don't believe that's necessarily a bad thing.
	They believe it's a very just thing.
	So when you give them a true sermon, you're going to have to be very careful what sort of questions you ask.
	Did you do something bad?
	No, I didn't do anything bad.
	Well, you'd have to keep it on an operational, logistic basis of names, places, dates, things of that nature, I'm sure.
	And then, is there any reason from what you were saying about Ben Laden being such a high target?
	uh... couldn't we go in there with an entourage in order to appease the people
	of the country of the red cross and say unicef
	uh... they're kicking us out and they're kicking the red cross
	and the u n and all those guys, they're kicking them all out.
	They've arrested them.
	They're stealing the food.
	No, it doesn't work.
	David, we're out of time.
	Listen, it has been such a pleasure having you on the show.
	Despite the fact it's so dark 30 here, it has been a great pleasure.
	I could get addicted to late night radio.
	And you've been a wonderful host.
	Well, thank you.
	And the title of your new book?
	Uh, brand new book, uh, Josh Osama, the brand new one out is also called Eden's Gid, and, uh, that's sort of a scary book, too, uh, about germ warfare over Washington, D.C.
	Oh, brother.
	Yeah, oh, brother.
	I know, I said, I'm gonna start writing, uh, the book I'm working on right now is called The Twenty-Third Psalms Across Between the Exorcist and the Manchurian Candidate, and, uh, that should get people going.
	All right, you stay on the line.
	I will.
	And I'll be right back to you.
	There you go, folks.
	That is David Haggard.
	Check out his book, Joshua's Hammer.
	I am.
	I'm reading it now.

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