On September 26, 2001, Art Bell introduces Joshua’s Hammer author David Hagberg, a former Air Force cryptographer and CIA speaker, who reveals Osama bin Laden’s $30M/year funding, luxury lifestyle (Armani suits, Jaguars), and potential access to suitcase nukes via Russian black markets. Hagberg argues bin Laden’s ideology—rooted in anti-Western resentment and Bushido-inspired martyrdom—demands targeted elimination over trials, warning that prolonged conflicts like Afghanistan risk empowering extremists. Callers debate U.S. retaliation, pacifism, and sleeper agents, while Hagberg dismisses moral justifications for 9/11, framing the fight as a clash of free will against fanatical evil. [Automatically generated summary]
From the high desert and the great American Southwest.
I think you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be in the world, and indeed the world is what we cover, one way or the other.
I'm Arkbell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
With Delta Airlines announcing thousands of layoffs, the Bush administration on Wednesday planned efforts to restore confidence in air travel following what occurred September 11th.
Officials said the president would propose new steps to make cockpit doors more secure.
Yay, and to place armed marshals aboard most planes, even domestic flights, as a deterrent to hijackers.
Other headlines, law enforcement authorities arrested 10, oh, this one's bad, 10 Middle Eastern men in three states Wednesday on charges of get this fraudulently obtaining licenses to transport hazardous materials.
The arrests in Missouri, Michigan, and Washington state followed FBI warnings that terrorists may strike next using chemical or biological weapons.
Listen to this.
Authorities said as many as 20 people who had the bogus permits, some of whom may have had connections to the 19 hijackers involved in the September 11th attacks, have been charged, but may not be linked specifically to the attacks.
Boy, I guess we better be ready, huh?
Thousands of demonstrators stormed the long-abandoned U.S. Embassy in Afghanistan on Wednesday, pelting it with stones, torching cars, a guardhouse, ripping down the heavy metal U.S. seal above the entryway, shouting, long live Osama, and death to America, burning an effigy of President Bush.
Meanwhile, we're calling up more reserves, more than 600 additional military reservists Wednesday, called up for the campaign against terror.
In New York, they have announced some pretty draconian car restrictions.
Mayor Giuliani outlined some pretty tough ones Wednesday on cars wishing to enter Manhattan, citing both security reasons and a need to ease traffic jams since the World Trade Center attacked.
Starting Thursday, said Giuliani, no driver can take bridges and tunnels into southern Manhattan between 6 in the morning and noon without at least one passenger.
Go by yourself and you don't go.
Pakistan has announced it will keep its border closed to Afghan refugees but may reconsider its position if conditions in the country deteriorate dramatically.
Well, according to the UN, they are going to deteriorate catastrophically.
Top military officials from Russia and nine former Soviet republics met Wednesday to discuss joint action against terrorism as the U.S. proceeds with plans for possible military action against Afghanistan.
Those are roughly the headlines, not very good ones, huh?
Now, after the show last night, which many of you just heard leading up to this live program, I received about between last night's, the beginning of last night's show and about a half hour ago, nominally about 4,000 emails.
4,000 emails.
Many of them were absolutely blown away by some of the people who called last night.
unidentified
No uncertain terms that we are living the greatest number of crises ever to face humankind, and they're telling us, George, that we've got to act, or not much else is going to make any difference.
Now, let's go back to the night of September 26, 2001, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
He struck a note with a lot of people, but he has to remember that Gandhi, Gandhi fought a pacifist war against a civilized government, the British Empire, who played by civilized rules.
You know, they weren't always right, but they did play by civilized rules.
If Gandhi set foot in Afghanistan and tried to practice what Gandhi practiced in India, Gandhi would be imprisoned and executed.
Gandhi would be imprisoned and executed just for not garbing himself, just for not wearing a beard.
You know, it's amazing to me.
I just want all the peacemakers, the demonstrators and the pacifists to remember that there are some people in the world that you can negotiate and some you can't.
In Vietnam, we had at least an argument that the pacifists could make.
We had an argument that we shouldn't be interfering in a civil war, the other side of which, of course, was that we're trying to stop the spread of communism, the larger picture, if you will.
But there was an argument there.
In the Korean War, I suppose you could muster up an argument.
In Somalia, certainly you could make an argument.
There are many things, and in my lifetime, that you could argue about.
World War II was pretty clear-cut, but here we've got one that, if anything, is even more clear-cut in a way than World War II.
Thousands of Americans killed in our nation's largest city.
Buildings destroyed and brought to the ground.
America virtually, for a short time at least, on its knees.
And a surprise, attack, mass murder.
What else can you call this?
When is it going to be any more clear than it is right now that we need to go kill these bastards?
unidentified
I know, and I don't understand.
It's not even just ourselves.
These people, the leaders in this country, and Osama bin Laden, who purportedly they support, they do far more heinous things to their own people.
It is amazing to me.
If they were to stand trial against the main, in front of the mainline Islamic community, they'd stand trial and they'd probably get sentenced to death themselves.
Well, if they can still muster up, we shouldn't respond, we shouldn't do anything to our enemies, and all the rest of it in this instance, then there is nothing that you could do to these people in this country that would move them off that position.
Nothing, because this is the worst.
unidentified
Precisely.
And the reason I will state this, the reason they have made no demands is because their only goal is to destroy our way of life.
Our way of life affects.
In their country, they have no freedoms.
Women cannot...
Their people cannot be educated.
Their people cannot use TVs, phones, internet, anything to advance their own lives, while the leaders of that country use those devices themselves to wage war on their people and on others.
All right, just a couple of side notes here before we push forward.
Number one, if you want to see the book that I'm talking about, my wife bought this for me at Albertson's here in Perunk, and I don't suppose there are any more, I don't know.
Joshua's Hammer.
I'm holding it up on my webcam picture if you go to artbell.com, but I've got another reason for you to go to artbell.com, not just my webcam picture.
There is something that's been going on with the sun now, our sun, you know, the big bright one in the sky, for, I don't know, last week or two that is absolutely astounding.
I mean, absolutely astounding.
And so if you will go to my website, I've had Keith put up a picture that I can't recall seeing the sun like this before.
We're currently having a gigantic, and I mean gigantic solar storm.
The sun spit out an X-Flare and it came directly at Earth, and we're currently having a gigantic storm.
But I have not seen the Sun in this shape in a long time.
I don't think I've ever quite seen it like this.
This is astounding.
And so under What's New, I had Keith put today's satellite picture of our sun.
And the sun spots across the sun, normally it's just a nice smooth, pretty much smooth orange ball as seen from satellite about a million miles out in space.
We've got a satellite that looks right at the sun.
Well, take a look at today's photograph.
Boy, is that a troubled sun.
Boy, did NASA miss it.
We have not peaked in the sun cycle.
In fact, the numbers that we have now are higher than I've ever seen them, higher than they were at the supposed peak of this sun cycle.
So something I want to call your attention to, take a look at this photograph of the sun.
It will blow you away.
It's at artbell.com.
And right under what's new, I think it just says, let me see what it says.
It simply says, under what's new, it simply says today's sun image.
Click on that and it will render the satellite photograph of today's sun.
You obviously don't want war, so how should somebody like yourself be portrayed fairly?
unidentified
My first reaction was the same as yours.
But if you can pull yourself back from that and take the scenario a few steps beyond and think what's going on right now and what events it can trigger, I would love to be able to just say, okay, we can just Obama bin Laden, and that would be that.
I don't know about one world, but the reason that these countries, many of which would never normally rally to our side, is because of the gravity of the situation, how awful this was.
It was mass murder, Sherry.
unidentified
And I won't, yes it was.
And I won't say that we deserved it.
Well, then what I will say is that we did bring it upon ourselves.
We just don't stay out of other people's business.
We just always have to be there.
And people look to us to police the world, to fight their battles, to rebuild their cities after we tear them down for them.
You know, if I had my way, I would call every American citizen home, kick every non-citizen out, put the military on our borders, and start cleaning up our own backyard first.
You know, I think we're tired.
We're tired of putting on shoes made in Japan, waving flags made in China, sitting in Japanese cars and putting Arab oil in it.
Sherry, we want to eat American food grown by American farmers.
Yeah, kind of agreed with some of the stuff she said, but it just gets down to, I wanted to ask you about something that I've been thinking about, but it does get down to just if you're attacked, you have to battle.
What is, you know, what else is it, right?
Probably a woman, she sounded maybe, you know, that she might have been behind a concentration camp if they hadn't have gone to war.
Actually, I'm rather pleased that they're using the word war, to be honest with you, because in the past we've always used police action.
Then we've had advisors.
And, you know, we've called a lot of different things Operation This and Operation That.
Let's face it, when somebody blows away 210-story buildings, hits the Pentagon, kills thousands of Americans, that's war.
unidentified
Murders, yeah.
Murders.
And I agree with you.
I totally agree with you.
And, you know, people that have hurt you so before I ask you this question, who have hurt you so about, I've learned to just ignore them because I know I've been taught, I've been spiritual since I was two, that people are just trying to find God, but some of them are doing it at a very low level.
Well, from our perspective, certainly he's a madman.
It's easy to sit here and call him that, but I really don't know a whole lot about Osama bin Laden.
I want to know more.
And so I guess that's what I'll try and do tonight.
unidentified
Well, then we're probably on the same page about him because what I'm going to say to you is it doesn't make any sense to me when he did this that afterwards this country would be on such alert and looking in every corner and every day I hear about more being arrested and all these false IDs.
That doesn't make any sense to me that he would know that this would happen.
So why do what he did and then have this happen?
So maybe all these rats from a whole bunch of things are coming out.
It's just, I'm a writer, and in fact, just before this happened, I submitted a screenplay to a director, actor on a terrace movie right before this happened.
And if I was writing this, that just would not make sense to me.
Maybe when you have your author on tonight, something just doesn't jive.
Because I look at my husband every day, and I thank him that he, or thank God that he was not on that plane, one of those planes, or in those towers.
I want these people tomorrow, when their kids get up, when their wives, their brothers, their mothers, whoever, the people closest to them, look them in the face and say, when these terrorists hit us again, I'm not going to do anything.
Is it going to take that before you want to do something about this?
Or you've got to wonder if some of these people, maybe they're what they really say they are.
And maybe even if somebody in their own family or their own family was slaughtered, they would continue to take this give peace a chance position.
unidentified
Then they're cowards.
Our country was founded on, and everybody wants to preach about the Bible and what history is.
Well, our history was founded on our forefathers fighting for what we have today.
If we do not strike back and take justice for those two people holding hands as they fell out of the tower, or that little baby that died in the car when the tower fell on him, if we don't take justice, our own children are going to grow up with this happening like it does in Egypt or Pakistan, going to the market and not knowing if you're coming home.
When you see a forum like this, now I'm hearing the echo.
When you see a radio program, let me see if I can get rid of this damn echo.
Hold on.
When you see a radio program like this disappear, when it leaves the airwaves and others like it, and you cannot any longer say things like this, and you never know, someday it could get there.
It's like a little beacon in the night.
When that disappears, then you know we're in trouble.
Well, you know, I do believe this boy is there in Echo.
I do believe this is possible.
I believe that there are probably sleepers in this country.
And I used to scoff at this sort of thing, but I think there are sleepers, agents in this country, ready to probably do what Osama bin Laden wants when he gives the order.
And I think that if we hit him, they probably will give that order.
And so we've got to face up to it.
We may face more terror.
unidentified
Oh, we will.
And those are the guys who are going to be dangerous to us, the ones inside the border.
And we're going to have to be very, very careful about checking IDs and routing these people out.
And the Islamic nation in this country needs to step forward and throw these guys out, you know, make their presence known to the government.
I'm hearing just tonight I read to you about the latest arrests of people getting these hazardous material permits illegally that may be connected to the terrorists.
My God.
unidentified
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, any of this is going to be all of these doors will be open to them because our government is wide open.
And that's why we're a great government.
Unfortunately, I wanted to know, have you seen a special called Lifting the Veil?
Normally, authors search me out because coming on the radio or television is probably a good way to sell books, no question about it.
In this case, I searched out an author.
His name is David Hagburg, and he's written a book called Joshua's Hemmer.
Let me tell my story briefly again several days ago.
My wife knew I was out of reading material.
I'm an avid reader.
I just, I read, I gobble books, as does my wife.
We both are, actually.
And I was out of books.
You know, I had read my last good book.
I love thrillers.
I love adventure.
I love high drama.
I love Tom Clancy.
I love Dean Kuntz.
And so my wife spied this book for me at Albertson's, I don't know, three or four days ago.
It's called Joshua's Hammer.
And Dean Kuntz said of it, if you're looking for thrillers with international intrigue, Hagberg is a major find.
And he sure is.
Let me read you.
This is why my wife bought it for me.
The back of the book says the following.
When a one-kiloton Russian nuclear demolitions bomb the size of a suitcase ends up in the hands of Saudi multi-millionaire Osama bin Laden, the entire world sits up and takes notice.
And when the U.S. launches an attack on the terrorist base of operations in Afghanistan, killing his daughter, retaliation against America is inevitable.
Now, Kirk McGarvey, the hero of our story, I guess, is in for the race of his life in a race against Ty McGarvey, has to find out how the bomb will get to the U.S., where it'll be detonated, and when this, the worst terrorist attack in U.S. history, will take place.
But not only must McGarvey stop the bomb, he must protect his own daughter and the daughter of the president of the U.S. from a savage act of retaliation by a man gone mad.
Now, David is a New York Times bestseller author with his book High Flight and I guess Critical Mass, The White House, a book called White House.
But this one, I thought, you know, some publisher has just somehow squeaked this thing out since the attack.
And so I opened the book before I ever called him.
And I noticed that, as you will, that this book actually came out first edition, August of 2000.
And first mass market edition, June of 2001.
So in my eyes, this book is prophetic.
Not only is it prophetic, it's in the style of Clancy.
It's a long book.
It's about 500 and some odd pages, 525 or so pages long.
And the insights, though it's a novel, into the Central Intelligence Agency, this whole thing is written from the point of view of inside the CIA.
And I mean really inside the CIA.
And it's written, it takes you right into bin Laden's camp.
It takes you right into bin Laden's organization.
And the insights into both bin Laden and the CIA, I thought, were more than a little coincidental.
And so earlier today, I said to myself, God, I'm reading this.
I really ought to get hold of the author.
And so we began to pursue David Hagberg, and I found him.
And he's up really late in Florida.
So coming up in a moment, the author of Joshua's Hammer, by the way, if you want to know more about it, you can probably get it on Amazon.com.
I'm sure we've got links to that.
I hope.
Let me see.
Do we?
Yes, we do.
In fact, actually, all you have to do is click on the book.
Go to artbell.com, my website.
Go to program tonight's guest info, and just click on the book, and it will take you to where you can get it.
I got it at Albertson's.
I think that may have been the last copy.
unidentified
you'll probably have to go to amazon dot com you may get a better price than i did the Now let's go back to the night of September 26th, 2001 on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
In the early days, I was learning how to write, I did everything from bartending to bricklaying, but I did a stint for a year in a factory building lawnmowers, commercial lawnmowers.
It was like the midnight to 8 in the morning shift or whatever it was.
And so at 8 o'clock, we get off work at the factory and go down to the local bar and have a couple of beers.
And people would drive by and say, look at those drunks out there.
Well, there's the easy answer that you tell if you're an author and you tell that cocktail party and somebody says, well, how do you know so much?
And say, well, look, I write fiction.
I make it all up.
And then there's the more difficult answer that I've been doing this for 40 years.
1960, as a young man out of high school, I joined the Air Force and passed whatever aptitude tests right away.
They put me in cryptography.
And that was at the very, very beginning of electronic cryptography, which had been designed and invented and built by the National Security Agency, another outfit that nobody had heard of in those days, even though it was bigger than the CIA.
And so I got into the world for seven and a half years up in Thule, Greenland, in an old Nazi bunker in Germany where we built the largest cryptographic center in the world.
We're listening to Russians and headgy stuff, like I mean, really nifty stuff.
That was called a ballistic missile early warning system.
It's one of their sites.
They had these great, big, huge radar antennas, the size of football fields, turned on edge, looking toward Russia because the attack wasn't going to come, it was going to come over the pools.
Well, the first day they turned these things on, it was nighttime, they got this huge scatter return.
It looked like the entire Russian Air Force was coming over the pool.
And they were going to push the panic button.
Some bright engineers went outside and looked up toward that direction and saw the moon.
They were bouncing these radar signals off the moon.
And that was the scatter coming back.
So, I mean, this was the backdrop under which my education and this sort of a business began.
And, you know, I was a cocky young kid and excited as hell.
Those are, I want to say great times, but they're bad times.
You know, Kennedy's assassination.
That's a date that will live just like December 9-11 will live in everybody's mind.
Sometimes a flap copy of the jacket covey on the books gives you just a tad more than what really was.
What happened, and this is a number of times I've spoken to a number of CIA people, but I was the, how do I put that, I was the dinner speaker, guest speaker, the luncheon speaker, the annual meeting of this group, and they call themselves the Government Employees Association.
And it was over in Clearwater, Florida, a couple of years ago.
And I did a little speech about real-life intelligence agencies at that time, the CIA, the KGB, and the Israeli Mossad.
These are the three top, were the top three top agencies at the time.
And there were about 400 people in the audience, and I got this huge standing ovation at the end.
I thought, you know, this is pretty cool.
This is kind of neat.
And afterwards, cocktails are talking, and this guy and his wife were there, and he said, you know who and what we are?
And I said, no, he said, we're all CIA and NSA agents.
I almost fell to the floor.
He says, you're telling us things, some things that we didn't know because we're so compartmentalized.
So since then, I know, I've gotten to know quite a few.
CIA, former director of communications, the CIA.
As a matter of fact, right here in town, a friend of mine, a gal, is an attorney now.
She was a field operative over in Czechoslovakia, and she followed a trail across Europe that led to the United States and led to the downing, and she had blown the whistle, but too late, led to the downing of that, what was it, I want to say Pan Am or TWA 800, the one over Long Island?
You know, how sure can you be of anything except death and taxes, I guess?
The best studied opinion that we have is that the fuel tank, the fumes of the fuel tank exploded.
And we're going through a number of scenarios now to try to stop that, like putting nitrogen gas, pumping nitrogen gas as a fuel tank in an airplane empties, put nitrogen gas there.
Yeah, that's what CIA did, this computer simulation.
They find out that, you know, if you talk to people and they see a lightning strike, they'll swear on a stack of vibes the lightning came out of the sky and hit the ground.
They feel, they think on the airplane that there was a sharp explosion that came through a seam or whatever in the tank and it was a real sharp spurt of hot gas and the eye just says, well, you know, it looked like there was a missile streak going up to the airplane just before the explosion.
So, you know, there's still people who believe that Lincoln assassination was a conspiracy.
And maybe.
You know, there's no way of knowing that, at least not for me.
Well, you've got to believe in conspiracies, don't you?
Because look what they just did.
I mean, what kind of complex operation, David, would it have been for somebody to simultaneously hijack four jets, plow them into 210-story buildings, bring the buildings down, killing thousands, and then plow into Pentagon on top of that?
And probably, if Flight 93 hadn't stopped, courtesy of the passengers, real heroes, that would have plowed into the White House.
And so this base, he took it over, and it's a worldwide...
I want to say Garden City, New Jersey, or out there somewhere has got links to this.
And it's very loose.
I mean, they don't have meetings as such.
Let's say there's Bin Laden and Meshwari is number two guy.
And there's maybe 10 or 12 men in the elite circle.
And then it goes out into cells all around the world.
And each cell doesn't know what the other one's doing.
But if he wants to know, let's say, how to take down a building, they'll get together with a couple of building engineers and say, well, you do it this way.
You can put a couple of bombs in the basement of this place and knock over one tower.
It'll fall into the other tower and knock everything down.
At the same time, we'll throw in a little cyanide gas to go through the system to kill the rescue workers.
Well, they tried that a few years ago and it didn't work.
And it should have been a wake-up call because some of the guys they arrested for that bombing of the World Trade Center were trained airline pilots.
Yeah, well, it's been in the news, but it was something that, okay, so they're trained pilots.
Who cares?
Who gives a damn?
They were bombing the building.
They weren't flying an airplane, but, you know, it was kind of a wake-up call.
These guys have been in this country for some time now, and so this, it's a heck of a lot easier to go into a basement of a building in a van and blow it up than it is to hijack an airliner and pop it into the building.
Even at that, when these airliners slammed into the buildings, I did not think the buildings were going to go down.
However, I've been informed that at about 800 degrees centigrade, the metal begins to melt, and they obviously must have known that jet fuel would accomplish that for them.
That's why they took Transcontinental Airliners at the beginnings of the journeys because they were filled with fuel.
It was a pretty efficient way, coldly efficient, when you think about the way of putting a bomb up there.
And you've got to bet Shabbat dollar that Bin Laden's boys, his engineers, understood, here's how you bring down a building.
You start the upper floors burning and they start to collapse on each other and bingo.
What surprised me was that, and maybe they had planned this, but if you want to be really cold-blooded about this, and he's done these kinds of things with the Russians on a lesser scale, of course, that you cause a catastrophe, right?
I'm not just saying this for the moment, but I always have had a great, great admiration for firemen.
I remember back in the 60s, during those inner city 70s, I guess, the inner city riots where the city of Detroit and that inner city was burning and firemen were coming in and people were shooting at them and the firemen still came in and fires.
I made up in my book why I think he went from this young playboy with tons and tons of money who gambled in London, who just jet-setted around the world.
I mean, this guy was living a high life, and he decided, as a lot of young men will do, when the Russians invaded Afghanistan, which is a fellow Islamic country, fine, let's go in and do what we can and have a good time, boys.
Let's drink a few drinks and kill us some Russians.
And he did that for 10 years to the point that he became a hero of the people because he didn't live in some palace, Jerry.
He was living right in the dirt and eating the same food that his soldiers were eating.
But somewhere along the line, he decided that America was the evil enemy, the West is the evil enemy.
The author of the book I'm reading now, David Hagberg, is my guest.
He's written a book called Joshua's Hammer.
And if you like Clancy, you're going to love Hagberg.
If you go to my website now and click on the book cover, you know, go to tonight's guest info and click on the book cover, it'll take you to Amazon.com.
It's a paperback, and check this out, folks.
They're going to go out of business.
They keep doing this.
It's $6.47 on Amazon.com.
$6.47.
My, my, my, my.
All right.
We'll be right back with David.
unidentified
David.
You're listening to Arc Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 2001.
his dad was born very, very poor in Yemen and moved to Saudi Arabia.
He had a whole ton of wives.
I think he's got like 50 kids.
And he got a construction contract to do something for the Saudis, and he did it well.
And then they said, all right, Kate, you're doing a good job.
Do Madiana and Mecca.
These are the two holiest places for all of Islam.
And he rebuilt those two holy places.
And he was in like, yeah, this is big.
And so the family became instant multi-billionaires.
And so Sama's a young man, lots of kids.
He was one of the favored sons.
He went off to university in Cairo and studied business.
He went to London.
He was a playboy, drank, raised, till, gambled, and all that.
And then he went off to Afghanistan to help fight the Russians because they were against the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan.
And something happened to him out there.
Nobody knows quite yet, but he went from this playboy image to this, I don't know any other word than religious zealot.
And his sole aim at the time, he says, I want Western influences out of the East, out of the Arabian Peninsula, Saudi Arabia.
And I don't know whether, I mean, there's some speculation.
So here, Saddam Hussein, a little ragtag band of poorly fed, poorly equipped Afghani, Mujahideen kicked this big Russian army out of Afghanistan.
And so he had this win, and maybe that reinforced him.
What's the old saying?
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
He was adored by these people.
I mean, almost to a godlike status.
And he might have begun to believe his own PR.
And at some point during the Gulf War, when Saudi allowed us to basing privileges for our fighter aircraft and that they go in and kick Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait, remember the Arabs look on that whole thing quite differently than Americans do too, because Kuwait really is a province or was a province of Iraq, and so Hussein was just doing what he thought was right, and a lot of Arabs thought was right.
Nonetheless, at that point, bin Laden said he wants all Americans out of Saudi Arabia, period M statement.
And he was so rabid about it that the Saudi ruling family kicked him out of the country, which reinforced his anger even more.
And at some point, he issued what's called a fatwa.
And that is a religious or holy order.
And here's a guy.
He's not an Imman or a preacher or anything, but he issued a holy order saying that it is every Muslim's duty any place, anywhere, at any time to kill any and all Americans.
Well, that's what a Muslim believes, that our bodies, ourselves, our lives here on earth, are nothing more than a mirror image of our real selves which dwell in paradise with Allah.
And when it's time, we will show polite and we'll go, the mirror image will be gone, and we'll be where we're supposed to be.
Now, that's pretty.
That's not violence.
That's not suicide bombers or killing innocent women and children.
Well, you may not have an answer for this, but I have concluded myself, after all, there's been no, since this occurred, no credit taken essentially for it.
while he was fighting the russians we don't know that yet enough thing in my book i speculate that he has a run-in with a with this c_i_a_ agent to uh...
i don't get ahead of the footer reading but i'm sorry that's all right In fact, I modeled her after my friend here in town.
And so he kills her, and then that's the Arab male.
That goes back to what's called human intelligence.
And it's during the Carter administration, and a lot of subsequent president sent to him says as the United States, we're the guiding light, the shining beacon of morality, or I don't know morality, but of the way people are supposed to live and act in the world.
And that means that the CIA and FBI are not going to deal with the murderers and the rapists and the drug dealers of that world.
We're going to use our satellites to electronic eavesdropping to give us intelligence.
The fact of the matter is you don't get enough intelligence that way.
And the guys who belong to these terrorist organizations are the druggies and the rapists and the murderers.
And if you want human intelligence, human it's called, then you have to deal with these people.
Well, we haven't.
And that's why we have this big hole in our intelligence.
Which means what you do is for money.
CIA calls it mice.
People defect for what's called mice, M-I-C-E, money, ideology, conscience, or ego.
and uh...
school will catch one way or another using money and sometimes ideology some of the world No, no, not definitely.
Well, no, I don't think so.
I think it's a mere coincidence that the acronym spells the word mice.
Like Hans, and although he got, you know, Hansley defected, that FBI guy, he defected, it seemed like money, but it wasn't so much money.
It was for ego.
The guy just thought he was better than everybody else.
Same way with Eldritch Ames.
It was ego.
The guy just thought he was better than everybody else.
He couldn't be caught.
And it was a big game.
And also his money with him.
The CIA never noticed that this guy was making $50,000 or $60,000 a year.
His credit card bills alone, which he paid in cash for $30,000 a month, paid cash for an $850,000 house in, I think it was in McLean.
And he drove brand new Jaguar every year.
And he dressed in, I don't throw Armani suits, but they were of that level.
This morning, I'm seeing headlines saying law enforcement authority is arresting 10 Middle Eastern men in three states Wednesday on charges of fraudulently obtaining licenses to transport hazardous materials.
It says they may have connections to the 19 hijackers of September.
Out here in Florida, at a little town called Belle Glade, it's in the interior of the state.
It's a farming community where there's a lot of crop dusters.
Atta and some of these other guys who died, who were flying the airplanes that flew under the trade towers and all that, they were very insistent and wanting to know all about crop dusting.
Well, I want to tell you something, and this is again, when we talked earlier, and I talked to a producer earlier today or yesterday or whatever it was about coming on the show.
He wrote a prophetic novel, an incredible novel called Joshua's Hammer, all about the CIA, Osama bin Laden, and a nuclear weapon.
That book is clear for you to pick up for a song, really, if you go to my website, simply go to tonight's guest info, click on the book cover there, it'll take you right over to Amazon.com where it's $7.19, the discounted price.
I'm reading it myself, and it's a winner, believe me.
If you like Flancy, you're going to just love Hagberg.
We're talking about what's happened in New York and about Osama bin Laden and a whole lot of stuff.
We'll get right back to it in a moment.
right there.
unidentified
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Now let's go back to the night of September 26th, 2001 on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Once again, to Florida in the middle of the night, and David Heinberg.
David, if we go to Afghanistan or chase him into one of the Russian republics where he may be and put a bullet between bin Laden's eyes, will that, it'll slow it down.
The BCCI bank were making questionable loans and all that, and it was being funded by a lot of pretty wealthy Arab investors.
And some of that money was being funneled into what would say questionable causes.
And when the bank fell apart, the Arab gentleman, the financial backer, says, we need some sort of a financial institution to help continue funding some of these organizations.
And the man they asked to put it all back together was none other than Osama bin Laden.
So he's a very bright guy.
If he falls, his organization is going to fragment, is going to splinter.
And we're going to have to go, you were mentioning that some guys were arrested in Seattle or something for trying to get truckers' licenses to haul.
Japanese Bushido, and now the Arabs have picked this up, the terrorists have picked it up, their philosophy is, if something is worth doing, it's worth dying for.
In your novel, at one point, a CIA agent, in a meeting with Bin Laden that he later pays for, is handed a 12-digit number that represents a nuclear device that was in Russia.
Or a Russian Republic.
Now, the obvious message from bin Laden back to the CIA was, hey guys, I've got one.
In today's world, we hear an awful lot of things about lax Russian Security for their weapons.
We hear that some weapons may already have left some of the Russian republics and may be already in the hands of somebody like bin Laden.
You asked earlier in the show about, or maybe it was earlier when we were talking about doing research, and I've been doing this for maybe 30 or 40 years.
Along the line, I read a magazine, a weekly magazine called Jane's Defense Weekly.
Sure.
Anybody who's involved in the business knows this.
And they've talked about a year ago about bin Laden offering $30 million to somebody to a Russian depot, weapons depot, I think, in maybe even been Tajikistan where I talk about my book.
And yes, in fact, my editor, who's also a writer and a good friend of mine, has written a book that will be published fairly soon called The Nuclear Yard Sale at the End of History or something like that.
All these Russian breakaway republics, they've left a lot of nuclear weapons, and some of them are guarded in tin shacks with locks that are broken that don't work and nobody's around.
And just go in there and pick it up at your peril, radioactive material, and take it home with you.
He posits that there used to be one or two nuclear states, now there's a whole bunch.
I mean, Brazil has probably got nukes, Israel, Pakistan, and India.
The list is pretty big now.
And the means to deliver them.
I was doing a book not so long ago where I've got the North Koreans who are starving to death.
The North Koreans have a nuclear weapon and a three-stage mission to deliver it.
And my publisher called said, David, nobody would buy it.
A week later, the North Koreans popped off a three-stage missile right over Japan.
The missile was big enough that they could have put a small object in low Earth orbit.
Well, can there be any question that somebody who would do what just happened in New York would not even hesitate to light fuse on a nuke, if he could?
And right now, since he's been walking with a can lately, I think that was in Jane's or some one of the publications I read that they were thinking there were maybe kidney problems, could be cancer.
Nobody knows yet.
But he's not walking as sprightly as he once upon a time was, not too long ago.
Yeah, some crazed fiction writer's weird imagination told another friend, I can't make this stuff up fast enough.
I mean, The real world is faster.
When the wall came down, the Berlin Wall came down.
My books were all mostly early books were about the Cold War and Russia, the Evil Empire, the United States, what I call we have our Superman complex, which is truth, justice, and the American way.
And I really believe that.
I believe that the United States should be benevolent policemen, but that's another big, long, long thing.
When the wall came down, I had many friends call and write and say, well, what are you going to do that the wall is down?
You've got no enemy.
I said, oh, no, contrary.
We have enemies all over the place now.
We're going to have a lot more.
I said, this is, if there's a devil's playground, this is a novelist era, a thriller novel, thriller writer's era.
Just the things that it just beggars the imagination.
While we're sending incredible amounts of force overseas right now, stationing them around Afghanistan, no doubt, as best we can, got the planes, you know, all the best we have, and we're calling up the reserves, and we're getting this massive, massive force ready for something.
And the American people are probably going to expect something rather spectacular.
You know, it really looked like something big was going to occur pretty fast, but in the last 24 hours or so, there have been statements from the administration that nothing has happened yet because we have, I'm quoting here, a lack of credible targets.
Well, if I were going to conduct the war, and I'm not, but if I were going to conduct the war, I don't think I would tell my general, I'd tell my public, my people, that I'm working on this, guys, something will happen.
But I'm not going to tell you that it's going to happen tomorrow, it's going to happen the next day.
I mean, this isn't going to be like when we bombed Baghdad with CNN, you know, live in color on TV.
We've got to stop the war, but we're not going to have a commercial, that kind of thing.
It's going to be quite different.
I'm watching, just like everybody else, with my mouth wide open and watching.
This is just the most fascinating thing to happen.
We've never had quite a war like this before.
Remember when we first got, I don't know if you're old enough, but you remember when we first got into Vietnam before anybody in this country even knew about Vietnam, which is in the early 60s.
And see, I can get my aggressions out by writing book scenarios and having the good guys win, and maybe even evil, stupid presidents or stupid military commanders get their comeuppance at the end.
If you like thrillers, you're going to love Joshua's Hammer.
I'm telling you, I'm reading it now, and that's why David Hagberg is here tonight, because it's an absolutely, incredibly well-done book.
You're going to love it.
Go to my website.
In fact, I'm going to give you a number of reasons to go to my website right now.
Number one is, I mentioned this earlier.
I got a photograph of the sun taken earlier today on the website because the sun is really having at it right now.
I've never seen so many sunspots in my life.
The satellite about a million miles out from Earth takes a daily image of the sun, and I was so struck by today's image, the image up there right now, that I asked Keith to put it up under what's new, and you'll see it under what's new.
Today's sun image.
You have never seen the sun go as berserk as it is right now.
The numbers surpass what they said was the peak of the sunspot cycle for cycle number 23.
So something's going on with the sun.
If you want to see what it looks like right now without having to actually look at it, you can on my website.
Number two, Tom Clancy's remarks, allegedly made by Tom Clancy that I read a few days ago.
That's up on the website now.
Number three, tonight's guest info contains a picture of the front of Joshua's hammer.
And if you'll just click on that, it will take you to Amazon.com where you can get it for a song.
Boy, I'll tell you, those people are going to go belly up selling.
But in the meantime, it's a great bargain for you.
Maybe I shouldn't say that.
Maybe they won't.
I don't know.
I don't know how they can discount books the way they do.
This is a fascinating book.
You're going to absolutely love it.
Rarely do I ever make this kind of recommendation for a book.
But, I mean, if you're a Clancy lover, this is just well, Dean Kuntz said of this author, if you're looking for thrillers with international intrigue, Hagberg is a major find, and he sure is.
You're going to love this.
All right, all of that said, one more item.
Keith is putting it up right now.
Tomorrow night, I am going to bring Major Ed Dames on.
He's a remote viewer, as you know, technical remote viewer.
And we've got a link to his website right now.
If you want to see some really frightening information, you're going to want to take a look at the link.
Just go to the website for guest info tomorrow night and look at Ed Dames' website, Major Ed Dames, and look at what he has said about what he sees about what's going on with Osama bin Laden and this whole thing.
Pretty frightening stuff.
I debated whether we should even air it, but we are going to tomorrow night.
If you want a sneak peek at what I'm talking about, it, along with everything else I've mentioned, is on my website at artbell.com right now.
unidentified
Artbell Now let's go back to the night of September 26th, 2001 on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
As you used the word surreal earlier tonight, it is surreal.
And it's, I hate to say it's not surprising, but I've been, as we talked about earlier, too, I've been reading about this stuff for so long, the Foreign Affairs Journal, just magazines and newspapers, New York Times, the James Defense Weekly.
And it doesn't take very long, it doesn't take a genius, I'm anything but, which is proof in the pudding, it doesn't take a genius to see trends.
Now, I see things maybe a little differently than, let's say, somebody in government, somebody with their button, their finger on a military button.
I see things through the eyes of a storyteller, a novelist.
I want to tell you a story.
I want you to put your feet up, grab a glass of beer, glass of wine, or whatever, and suspend your disbelief and come along with me for a few hours.
There's good guys, there's bad guys, and the good guys will always win.
The only difference between my books and what the other books is that I'm using real-world situations, the real McCoy out there.
And so what, if you've got a thousand monkeys in a room with a thousand typewriters, sooner or later, a given time, they'll write the Encyclopedia Britannica.
World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders, Islamic Change Movement, Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, Armed Islamic Movement, Committee for the Defense of Legitimate Rights, Islamic Army for the Liberation of Holy Places, it goes on a popular Arab and Islamic conference.
These are just a few, and this list is like a book long, of organizations that all hate, absolutely hate the West.
Last night, I've been in open lines since this occurred pretty much, but last night something happened.
I began getting calls, David, last night from people who I guess you would have to call them pacifists or actually haters of America.
And they don't want anything else done.
A lot of them say if we go after them, it's just going to be worse.
They're going to hit us even harder.
There's fear out there, serious fear.
Listen to this.
I'll read you just a small part of three emails I got today.
Mr. Bell, America is an evil nation that continually shakes its fist at God.
Foremost, the slaughter and butchery of innocent babies every day.
This is a heinous crime, which the media will not address.
It is a moral evil and evil that the morally degenerate cannot address.
The hottest places in hell reserved for those in time of moral crisis who remain neutral.
America not only deserves what happened in New York, but it deserves more.
God will use infidels and general crazies to punish us more and more.
The attack on America is nonsense.
It is no more than America's foreign policy chickens coming home to roost and so forth.
Or this, I will cut right to the chase.
It's not our war.
I get so tired of hearing you and other radio personalities referring to the attacks on the World Trade Center as attack on America.
It ain't so.
The Arabs attacked the World Trade Center because they felt they could kill a lot of Jews there.
The real frustrating thing now is how you and the rest of the media have spread this notion that America was attacked when nothing could be further from the truth.
or i hate to say it you know sort of tongue-in-cheek downtown miami beach but there's a lot of that out there right now and it's growing david as a There was, what, 80 different nationalities.
Unfortunately, six weeks ago, I had a bad jump, and I'm getting repaired on my knee, and I didn't wait to get into this fight.
Personally, I'm trying to figure out how you get all this information because our flash news, such as Lib Baden being sick right now or possibly having a disease, it's like you're a storyteller, not storytelling, but a fortune teller of what's going on in the world.
Well, I believe that almost every president for a long, long time now has said the United States would go to war to protect the oil flow from the Middle East.
Can I throw like you throw a bone into a pack of dogs, the one that yelps, the one that gets hit?
If every single crude oil carrier in the world, every single one in the world today, were used just to supply Japan with oil, they would have to make three trips a year just to Japan.
Your caller, if she's still online, she's absolutely right.
The motion that is rising up around the world is, I don't know about sunspots, but it's an energy, a collective energy, if you will, that gets things done.
Yeah, well, and this is something I wanted to ask people.
Art, I was really disturbed by yesterday's show and people just not hiding their head in the sand.
People don't know who is your civil defense, your organizer, your lead.
Where are your shelters?
What do you have for personal defense?
I would urge people to do what the, I believe it was Mr. Thompson said, do what the Red Cross says for normal civil disasters.
Get yourself prepared.
Support your National Guard.
That's your home defense.
And David, I'd like to ask you, in your own, in Art as well, in your own estimation, what do you think our national defense is like for this kind of a threat, a nuclear, biological, or chemical?
As it turns out, my wife is the director of the Red Cross for this coast, a couple of counties in this part of Florida.
And just about a year ago, all the Red Cross chapters across the country were sent a pretty extensive bullet, I don't know, about 20 pages long, how to deal with the after effects of a chemical, biological, or nuclear event.
And when the Red Cross, which is a pretty, I mean, they're a pretty zippy organization, when the military goes in, the Red Cross goes in with them.
But when you have an organization that's so big and maybe even hidebound by rules to sit up and take notice about this possibility, then you know we're taking it seriously.
Other than that, our civil defense is absolutely flappable.
I mean, looking at the glass, half full rather than half empty.
Isn't it really neat, gentlemen, that we are living in a society where we actually, I mean, the biggest thing we do is lock our car door in a parking lot of the supermarket.
Isn't it, maybe it's time for the wake-up call or something, but in my way of thinking, that's pretty damn neat.
You know, most people who are reading a book they love don't get the opportunity to pick up the phone and talk to the author of the book they're reading and love.
I've got that opportunity.
I'm doing that tonight.
David Hagberg is my guest.
His book is Joshua's Hammer.
And it's a killer.
Believe me, it's a killer.
You can obtain it by going to my website, artbell.com, and then just clicking on the book cover under tonight's guest info.
will take you to amazon dot com where you can't resist the price Oh, my God.
Impact, I've got a little information on that for David.
We'll get to that in a moment.
In the meantime, your calls and your questions are welcome.
I'm Art Bell.
unidentified
Looking for the truth?
You'll find it on Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
It is not our imagination, and the best minds of our time are telling us, in no uncertain terms, that we are living the greatest number of crises ever to face humankind.
And they're telling us, George, that we've got to act or not much else is going to make any difference.
You're listening to Arc Bell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 2001.
No, and 1-1 and then 1-9 is the area country code, I think, for Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia or something like that.
No, but we are in the last, I don't know, 10 years or so, maybe the whole world, but especially the United States, has come to an era of spirituality, let's say.
We've got drive-by shootings.
Now we've got airplanes crashing.
You see the McDonald's get blown away.
You've got road rage.
And people are becoming more spiritual.
And when they do, spirituality takes all sorts of forms.
Church attendance is way up.
Divorce rate is way down.
Crime rates are down.
And numerology and these sorts of things are on the rise because people are trying to find meaning.
Yeah, I guess that's the word I wanted.
Meaning.
They're trying to find what the hell does this all mean?
I explore it in my writing.
The writing is like the Sphinx couch.
I can work out all these things, whether it be aggressions.
I was an abused child.
Stepfather beat the hell out of me.
And so I write these violent books that tend to be violent, and yet I'm one of the most, I'm just a very non-violent person in real life.
A friend of mine was the county sheriff is the same way.
He was beat up as a kid, and he's now the county sheriff.
The guy weighs about 7,000 pounds.
I mean, he's a big guy.
And he's the sheriff.
He's a non-violent man.
One rule in our house is no hitting.
And so that's my reaction.
And for a lot of people right now in this country, it's spirituality in a lot of different forms.
And all the NFL players are using this, and I really think it would help you.
Okay, thank you, dear.
And I really, I have a few things to say because I've been trying to get you on the phone ever since this happened.
And I really feel in my heart that the people that died, we have to look at it in a different way, that heaven, Daniel Brinkley has been there.
Heaven is a beautiful place, and they're probably better off than us if we're going to have war.
But every religion we have on this planet, even I talked to a Muslim on the bus here before this all happened, every religion teaches forgiveness and love.
Jesus said, forgive us for they know not what they do.
And I think that if you would have Dr. Michio Kaku on your program and have him ask him if that's a way we can go to the next level.
They found out that Roosevelt knew when Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked, and 60 Minutes, just two weeks ago, they're bringing Kissinger up on things for assassinating the guy in Chile.
We do not know what our government has done behind our backs.
And I wanted to ask your guest if he feels that if we all, like 15 minutes before your program or 15 minutes, I mean 15 seconds after your program, if we would all pray for world peace and say, let this happen for the good of all, if he thinks that would help.
But on the other hand, that brushes close to some of the calls I've had that think that any response we'll make will either make it worse or get us attacked even more.
In my mind, and I guess I'm just a war hawk, I don't know, if we don't do anything, if we just leave this alone, then, you know, just as with Germany, appeasement is only going to get you one thing, and that's going to be more of what just happened.
I tell you what, Art, you just, we're all saying a mouthful, all skirting around, we're all skirting around some issue that I think fundamentally is, is there evil on earth?
Yes, there is evil on earth.
How do we deal with evil?
Do we turn our back on it?
No, we have to deal with it religiously.
Yes, let's pray, but we also need to deal with it in a secular manner as well.
If I have cancer, I am going to pray to my Maker to please help me through this.
Now, if that means I'm going to die and go to heaven, well, that's the way it goes.
Also, according to Monday's Boston Globe, and my cousin lives in Boston, so I'm very conscious and aware of what's been going on in Boston.
The Bin Laden family is very entrenched in Boston and has been for about 20 years.
One of Bin Laden's brothers went to Harvard and is a graduate of Harvard and is actually a scholarship in his name at Harvard.
And he's a very profound contributor to Harvard.
And he actually has 51 brothers that live in Boston and one sister.
And they were all taken from Boston by private plane a few days ago back to Saudi Arabia.
They also have six to eight properties in Boston.
And when this catastrophe occurred, since many people in Boston are aware of where they live, there was immense police protection at the cost of the taxpayers' expense in Boston to protect them and their properties.
Well, if we actually begin to move militarily, well, we're moving now, but I mean actually go into Afghanistan or one of the Russian republics after Osama bin Laden, based on intel that we get, if we don't get him first time out, isn't it probable that he's going to activate some more sleepers here and come back at us?
At some point, we bombed, we dropped some bombs and stuff in Tripoli.
In fact, my son was in the Navy at the time, and they issued somebody on one of the ships came up with the silk screening and did a t-shirt as was the US-2 Libya-Zero.
So the guy, you know, the guy got the message and he shut up.
He quieted down.
So would Osama do the same?
I could probably make a better case or no.
He'll really be rabid.
But I have a feeling that a lot of the countries, a lot of Arab countries are disavowing him and are starting to cut off funds, the money trail.
country still today who recognizes Afghanistan, let's say, is Pakistan.
And I think, yes, he may reawaken sleepers.
He may do lots of things.
But I think he's slowly but surely going to be restricted, choked off from...
Yeah, well, how do you hide one of your commercials says buy gold?
And I agree with that.
Gold or diamonds, you know, these are the things.
They're valuable wherever you go.
But he's got to get this money.
There is a method of getting money from overseas to the United States or any other country where you avoid all tax laws, you avoid Western Union, you avoid all banks, you avoid everything else.
And it's perfectly secret and yet out in the open.
And you can get lots of money across.
How?
Well, it's real easy.
What they have, I'm trying to think what they're called, made brokers or something like that.
Let's say I'm in Karachi, Pakistan, and I want to send $1,000 to my uncle in New York City.
I will go to the broker in Karachi and say, here's $1,000.
I want you to send that to my uncle in New York.
So the broker puts $1,000 in his pocket.
He calls a pal of his who's a broker, a similar broker in New York, and says, I get $1,000 from a guy here.
I want you to go deliver this $1,000 in cash to this man at this address.
And the broker over there says, yes, thank you, and he does it.
The guy in Karachi has just earned $1,000 plus a commission.
The guy in New York is just out $1,000 in his pocket.
But he knows that sooner or later, somebody in New York will want to send $1,000 to, say, let's somebody in Saudi Arabia.
He said he didn't remember too much about him, but one thing he remembered about him was he disliked him.
He didn't know why, but he just had an inner feeling that he disliked the man.
Also, James Woods apparently was on a Boston flight and noticed that there were four Arab passengers in first class.
And he said that they were very strange, didn't say anything, were not friendly, didn't speak to anyone, didn't accept anything from the stewardess, just stared straight ahead.
I think that if there are terrorists, sleepers in this country with those kinds of evil intentions, that this is how they're going to show up.
People are going to innately dislike them, and they're going to appear.
I mean, you can't have those kind of intentions and warmly react to a puppy, for instance.
So I think if people are alert to this kind of thing, we can ferret out some of these people that just do not fit.
My question is, when you do this, how can you turn these leads over to authorities without it just degenerating into sort of amateur racial profiling?
How do you, just as a matter of curiosity, when you're writing a book like this, obviously there's a lot of research and all the rest of it, but from where do you pluck the concept?
What happens is, I've taught at the local library, I've taught what's called a master's class in novel writing because I've written about 65 books.
And part of it is how to come up with ideas.
And the not-so-easy answer is if you learn how books are put together and you learn how to outline books and you understand how to read books like a writer reads a book, and so you can say, yes, I could have done that book, or no, that book was beyond me, not only the research, but the writing.
Pretty soon, after just a couple years or so, even less than that, of doing that sort of thing, you begin to look at the entire world through the eyes of a novelist or a writer.
So when you read a newspaper, when you talk to a radio talk show host or a guest, you're constantly, some portion in the back of your brain is constantly evaluating everything you hear and see and read, evaluating it as a possible story idea.
And so I'm reading in the paper some years ago about Iran trying to buy Aquilo-class submarines.
I thought, aha, there's a book.
I've been reading a lot about Osama bin Laden over a number of years.
I don't know why.
I'm fascinated by people.
And he's just an ultimately fascinating person.
And I've sort of watched his career, if you want to call it a career develop, and killing and bombing and all that.
And so I started to write books about him.
And so how do you come up with an idea?
You think like a novelist and you look at the world like I'm a storyteller.
It's the same way with like 50,000 years ago, the hunters all went out and one of them came back and instead of going to sleep, he painted paintings, you know, cave drawings to tell the story.
Well, it's the same kind of thing.
You know, after a day of seeing all this insanity going on in the world, I turn around and filter it through my own bizarre, strange imagination, and I come up with scenarios that have happy endings.
Stephen King said that modern novelists in America at least are, we're all biblical.
We're all writing morality plays, that there's good and evil in the world, and good will win over evil.
And I believe that strongly.
It wasn't an easy answer.
I'm sorry, Art, because a lot of these questions, you're asking some very good questions that don't have easy answers.
First time caller line, you're on the air with David Hagberg.
unidentified
Hi.
Oh, yes, David, I'm in Santa Barbara, California, and I remember you mentioning a few hours ago a connection to Santa Barbara, California, and also you mentioned a town, I think it was Bowling Lawn or Bowling Green on the East Coast.
So there's, I'm not touting anybody else's book, yes I am, but there's a book, a non-fiction book by Joseph Bodansky.
It's called Bin Laden, The Man Who Declared War in America.
This came out maybe three, four years ago.
And in it, he talks about the bin Laden organization connection.
And he had, it's one of my primary research sources.
He didn't have a lot of information, but he just said, I think it was Garden City, New Jersey, Santa Barbara, California, and maybe one or two other cities that were bin Laden banking, where Bin Laden money, not the Bin Laden family, but Osama bin Laden, where he had some connections.
But they're so tenuous and so well done that we have been able to seize or freeze very little of his actual operating funds until now.
So it's not information that I went out to Santa Barbara, let's say, and sat down with a bank manager and research.
It's something that, and Bdansky is a very well-respected historian.
Well, I just wanted to say thanks very much for the opportunity of being able to call in from overseas for free, first of all.
And I'm a regular listener over the internet, so I had to disconnect the call in.
But I'm just curious in regards, rumors that I heard in regards to the Russian black market and the talk, rumors I've heard on the net about low-yield suitcase-sized, I saw on the Amazon.com site there, nuclear devices that may have become available when the Russian government was in a little bit of a state of flux and wondering if there's any proof to those sorts of claims.
Both the Russians and the Americans, neither one wants to admit it, but they both, both countries, we both admitted sort of offhandedly that we each built about 100.
And they're called, I'm trying to think what they're called, hardened target demolition devices.
They're 80 pounds maybe, you know, maybe about 30 kilogram.
Fit in a small suitcase.
One guy can carry them.
And they're meant to take bridges, dams, submarine pens, missile silos.
You can sneak up and put them in.
And they weren't covered under any of the SALT treaties.
Ours are made by Pantech down and put together by Pantex down in Texas.
And these are, I'm trying to think it was a Russian Minister of Defense before Putin said, admitted publicly, and this was in the New York Times, this is what, maybe four or five years ago, admitted that they had lost 100 of these things.
Now later, some government official within days, a Russian government official, said, no, it was nothing more than a counting administration error.
And my eyebrows sort of went up around the back of my neck.
And I said, yeah, okay, Pal.
Yes, these weapons are out there floating around.
And Jane's Defense Weekly suggested that Bin Laden has been trying to buy one.
The ANDI is up to 30 million U.S. now.
And considering the state of the Russian economy and the breakaway republic's economies, if he hasn't got one, he's got a pretty fair shot at getting one.
I was commenting to my friends that it was so good to see, even though people were obviously running for their lives, panic-stricken, that the camaraderie and the love that was shown, the critical mass that was achieved in the people of New York, that our men were running by the rain.
Yeah, gave reason for your country not to have to declare martial law or anything drastic like that.
Wildcard Line, you're on the air with David Hagberg.
unidentified
Hi.
Yes, Art and David.
This is John from Goodwin, Minnesota.
I agree with everyone, Art, that's called in so far, both the Peace Knicks and the Warriors, actually.
But none of them have really been, I think, balanced or comprehensive.
The terrorists are like a crazy man in a public square with a gun, you know, who's already killed somebody.
Put it down, or, you know, we've got to shoot you.
I think we should also go after, besides Osama, Saddam Hussein, his palaces, his military, and then give Sudan an ultimatum.
You know, let us end to take part your biological and chemical weapons factories or your dead meat as well.
On the other hand, I mean, Streeberg's the key and John Hoag's the interpreter of nostrils, I think, are right.
I think we have to do a better job of sharing the wealth and spilling the secrets on the extraterrestrials or we're going to eventually lose this war.
I mean, the danger is Osama is swimming in an ocean of a sect called Wahhabism, which is the official religion of Saudi Arabia, and which began a couple centuries ago in the Arabian Peninsula, massacring people, and generally they've been killing their moderate Opponents ever since.
But yet, of course, there's a lot of peaceful people, too.
And 80% of the Imams in America are Wahhabis.
And I think you could get a good debate going here with maybe some of them and talk about this.
Listen, we're limited on time, but I appreciate the call.
I do want to pluck from your conversation, though, one question.
That is, we did not go after Saddam Hussein.
We could have.
A decision was made not to.
If we are forced to pursue Iraq for one reason or another in this present pursuit of terrorists, and it seems logical that we would, are we going to go in and get him this time?
As the caller mentioned earlier, and I heard it mentioned Ian, not getting into numerology again, but about 9-11 being the date of the original Muhammad, the founder of the Muslim religion's birthday, I wanted to get your opinion on a belief that I have.
I believe that bin Laden enjoyed the martyrdom bestowed upon him after Clinton's waste of all the missiles and money and manpower, so much so that he used this feigned self-suffering to create his own religion separate and apart from the Islamic faith.
I think it's a continually developing sort of a belief system, and he gathers people around him who, I don't know if they're violent, but I think there are people who are at the end of their tether who say to themselves, what I'm doing right now seems to go nowhere.
I need some sort of a cause, whatever it may be, and I need somebody, something to believe in.
And Bin Laden seems to be spitting into the wind against a gigantic evil Satan.
And yeah, I think you are exactly.
You are right on with it.
But I don't think it's a done deal yet.
I think it's a constantly evolving, a constantly changing.
And he'll fit his religious notions with whatever is happening at the moment, whatever suits him.
If we're in a state of war, not really, but technically, there are no constitutional rights for these people.
There's all kinds of truth serums.
And the same with the people that are insurgents that are going into Afghanistan, they could have an injector of true serum right there with their atropine, for that matter, or just give it to the translators and have the translators utilize it all.
I think that might have only limited success in that the same mechanism might occur when somebody defeats a lie detector test.
They believe so strongly, and let's say what they're doing, that they don't consider, just assuming they kill a woman and child, an American tourist, they don't believe that's necessarily a bad thing.
They believe it's a very just thing.
So when you give them a true service, you're going to have to be very careful what sort of questions you ask.
Did you do something?
Absolutely.
I didn't do anything bad.
unidentified
Well, you'd have to keep it on an operational logistic basis of names, places, dates, things of that nature, I'm sure.
And then, is there any reason from what you were saying about bin Laden being such a high target, couldn't we go in there With an entourage in order to appease the people of the country of the Red Cross and say UNICEF.