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Sept. 26, 2001 - Art Bell

02:43:38

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - David Hagberg - Joshua's Hammer

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42:59

david hagberg

01:10:54

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Welcome to Ark Bell Somewhere in Time.
unidentified		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 2001.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert and the great American Southwest.
		I think you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be in the world, and indeed the world is what we cover, one way or the other.
		I'm Arkbell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
		With Delta Airlines announcing thousands of layoffs, the Bush administration on Wednesday planned efforts to restore confidence in air travel following what occurred September 11th.
		Officials said the president would propose new steps to make cockpit doors more secure.
		Yay, and to place armed marshals aboard most planes, even domestic flights, as a deterrent to hijackers.
		Other headlines, law enforcement authorities arrested 10, oh, this one's bad, 10 Middle Eastern men in three states Wednesday on charges of get this fraudulently obtaining licenses to transport hazardous materials.
		The arrests in Missouri, Michigan, and Washington state followed FBI warnings that terrorists may strike next using chemical or biological weapons.
		Listen to this.
		Authorities said as many as 20 people who had the bogus permits, some of whom may have had connections to the 19 hijackers involved in the September 11th attacks, have been charged, but may not be linked specifically to the attacks.
		Boy, I guess we better be ready, huh?
		Thousands of demonstrators stormed the long-abandoned U.S. Embassy in Afghanistan on Wednesday, pelting it with stones, torching cars, a guardhouse, ripping down the heavy metal U.S. seal above the entryway, shouting, long live Osama, and death to America, burning an effigy of President Bush.
		Meanwhile, we're calling up more reserves, more than 600 additional military reservists Wednesday, called up for the campaign against terror.
		In New York, they have announced some pretty draconian car restrictions.
		Mayor Giuliani outlined some pretty tough ones Wednesday on cars wishing to enter Manhattan, citing both security reasons and a need to ease traffic jams since the World Trade Center attacked.
		Starting Thursday, said Giuliani, no driver can take bridges and tunnels into southern Manhattan between 6 in the morning and noon without at least one passenger.
		Go by yourself and you don't go.
		Pakistan has announced it will keep its border closed to Afghan refugees but may reconsider its position if conditions in the country deteriorate dramatically.
		Well, according to the UN, they are going to deteriorate catastrophically.
		Top military officials from Russia and nine former Soviet republics met Wednesday to discuss joint action against terrorism as the U.S. proceeds with plans for possible military action against Afghanistan.
		Those are roughly the headlines, not very good ones, huh?
		Now, after the show last night, which many of you just heard leading up to this live program, I received about between last night's, the beginning of last night's show and about a half hour ago, nominally about 4,000 emails.
		4,000 emails.
		Many of them were absolutely blown away by some of the people who called last night.
unidentified		No uncertain terms that we are living the greatest number of crises ever to face humankind, and they're telling us, George, that we've got to act, or not much else is going to make any difference.
		Now, let's go back to the night of September 26, 2001, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Art Bell All right, into the night we go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you are on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		All right, R. Hi, this is Tom from Omaha.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Tom.
unidentified		Hey, I work nights every other week, so I get to listen to you all night, every other week, for the last six months.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		That's about right.
unidentified		I think I miss about every other one of those, too, lately.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, what's up?
unidentified		Hey, I just, I tried to call and tried to call last night.
		I think, I thank God I got through here to you tonight.
		I just couldn't take it anymore last night.
		I listened and listened to some of the pacifists and the peacemakers, which that's great.
		I love the fact we have pacifists and peacemakers in our country who listen to you at night.
		But it's just the rationale that they use that disturbed me so bad.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For example.
unidentified		My first example is the Gandhi rationale.
unidentified		I don't mean to disparage this young man, but he seemed to be awfully young and naive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I thought you mean Gandhi Tim, right?
unidentified		Yes, Gandhi Tim.
		He struck a note with a lot of people, but he has to remember that Gandhi, Gandhi fought a pacifist war against a civilized government, the British Empire, who played by civilized rules.
		You know, they weren't always right, but they did play by civilized rules.
		If Gandhi set foot in Afghanistan and tried to practice what Gandhi practiced in India, Gandhi would be imprisoned and executed.
		Gandhi would be imprisoned and executed just for not garbing himself, just for not wearing a beard.
		You know, it's amazing to me.
		I just want all the peacemakers, the demonstrators and the pacifists to remember that there are some people in the world that you can negotiate and some you can't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me say something.
		All right, see if you agree with this.
		I was in the military.
		I was in the Air Force.
		I was in Vietnam even.
		In Vietnam, we had at least an argument that the pacifists could make.
		We had an argument that we shouldn't be interfering in a civil war, the other side of which, of course, was that we're trying to stop the spread of communism, the larger picture, if you will.
		But there was an argument there.
		In the Korean War, I suppose you could muster up an argument.
		In Somalia, certainly you could make an argument.
		There are many things, and in my lifetime, that you could argue about.
		World War II was pretty clear-cut, but here we've got one that, if anything, is even more clear-cut in a way than World War II.
		Thousands of Americans killed in our nation's largest city.
		Buildings destroyed and brought to the ground.
		America virtually, for a short time at least, on its knees.
		And a surprise, attack, mass murder.
		What else can you call this?
		When is it going to be any more clear than it is right now that we need to go kill these bastards?
unidentified		I know, and I don't understand.
		It's not even just ourselves.
		These people, the leaders in this country, and Osama bin Laden, who purportedly they support, they do far more heinous things to their own people.
		It is amazing to me.
		If they were to stand trial against the main, in front of the mainline Islamic community, they'd stand trial and they'd probably get sentenced to death themselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if they can still muster up, we shouldn't respond, we shouldn't do anything to our enemies, and all the rest of it in this instance, then there is nothing that you could do to these people in this country that would move them off that position.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nothing, because this is the worst.
unidentified		Precisely.
		And the reason I will state this, the reason they have made no demands is because their only goal is to destroy our way of life.
		Our way of life affects.
		In their country, they have no freedoms.
		Women cannot...
		Their people cannot be educated.
		Their people cannot use TVs, phones, internet, anything to advance their own lives, while the leaders of that country use those devices themselves to wage war on their people and on others.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I consider myself a civilized person.
		Precisely, so do I. And a civilized person would expect to hear some sort of demand, some rationale, twisted even as it might be, for what was done.
		You know, even some statement of we hate you or something or another, but nothing.
		Absolutely nothing.
		The only thing they want is us dead.
unidentified		Yes.
		And if I could just say one other thing, I want people to understand.
		Our government, our people, people in the world in general have inherent iniquities.
		That's what God strives against day to day.
		You know, our government ended the practice of slavery in our country.
		Slavery existed, but we ended the practice of slavery.
		You know, I heard you read something about abortion earlier.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, abortion.
unidentified		What are our forces for and against?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, I've got to go, sir.
unidentified		Okay, great.
		I appreciate the time.
		I appreciate the time, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, take care.
		Thank you, sir.
		Bye-bye.
		Coming up on the bottom of the hour.
		I'm Art Bell.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from September 26th, 2001.
		In the day, something like that.
		In the night, something like no control.
		Moving home, something breaking.
		Wherein white, and you're walking down the street of the soul.
		I used to be your roller donor.
		Every call is right.
		I need to find an answer on the road.
		I used to be a heartbeat before not one when the time came to let me say the more I work ever done.
		Cause I never feel that you'll be done.
		Come to me, I'm the one I'll make you light.
		Thank you.
		You're listening to Arc Bell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks tonight, an oncore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 2001.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Philadelphia Freedom, New York Freedom, LA Freedom, San Francisco Freedom.
		I have a feeling that a lot of people don't much like freedom anymore.
		I really do get that feeling.
		A lot of people don't like freedom anymore.
		They should go somewhere and experience what its absence is like.
		I've been there.
		It's kind of strange.
		It's unsettling.
		Actually, it's scary.
		Anyway, stay right where you are.
		We'll be right back.
		There is much more to do this half hour and a great guest for you next half hour.
unidentified		Now let's go back to the night of September 26, 2001 on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, just a couple of side notes here before we push forward.
		Number one, if you want to see the book that I'm talking about, my wife bought this for me at Albertson's here in Perunk, and I don't suppose there are any more, I don't know.
		Joshua's Hammer.
		I'm holding it up on my webcam picture if you go to artbell.com, but I've got another reason for you to go to artbell.com, not just my webcam picture.
		There is something that's been going on with the sun now, our sun, you know, the big bright one in the sky, for, I don't know, last week or two that is absolutely astounding.
		I mean, absolutely astounding.
		And so if you will go to my website, I've had Keith put up a picture that I can't recall seeing the sun like this before.
		We're currently having a gigantic, and I mean gigantic solar storm.
		The sun spit out an X-Flare and it came directly at Earth, and we're currently having a gigantic storm.
		But I have not seen the Sun in this shape in a long time.
		I don't think I've ever quite seen it like this.
		This is astounding.
		And so under What's New, I had Keith put today's satellite picture of our sun.
		And the sun spots across the sun, normally it's just a nice smooth, pretty much smooth orange ball as seen from satellite about a million miles out in space.
		We've got a satellite that looks right at the sun.
		Well, take a look at today's photograph.
		Boy, is that a troubled sun.
		Boy, did NASA miss it.
		We have not peaked in the sun cycle.
		In fact, the numbers that we have now are higher than I've ever seen them, higher than they were at the supposed peak of this sun cycle.
		So something I want to call your attention to, take a look at this photograph of the sun.
		It will blow you away.
		It's at artbell.com.
		And right under what's new, I think it just says, let me see what it says.
		It simply says, under what's new, it simply says today's sun image.
		Click on that and it will render the satellite photograph of today's sun.
		And it's amazing.
		That is one troubled sun, believe me.
		So be ready for anything from that side.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		I feel that people who do not want to go to war are being portrayed by you unfairly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, fine.
		Let's talk about it.
		You're obviously one of them, right?
unidentified		Yes.
		Where are you?
		In Tampa.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In Tampa.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And your first name?
unidentified		Sherry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sherry.
		Okay, Sherry.
		Let's talk about it.
		You obviously don't want war, so how should somebody like yourself be portrayed fairly?
unidentified		My first reaction was the same as yours.
unidentified		But if you can pull yourself back from that and take the scenario a few steps beyond and think what's going on right now and what events it can trigger, I would love to be able to just say, okay, we can just Obama bin Laden, and that would be that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, stop for a second, Sherry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you see aside from the fact that we kill him and somebody else comes along, what else do you think could happen?
unidentified		Well, for one thing, we seem to be rallying all these people, all these countries to our side.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		As if to begin the whole one world thing.
		As if to kick it off.
		The wheels have been set in motion, and it's like we're finally kicking it off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the world is getting smaller, Sherry.
		There's no question about that.
		I don't know about one world, but the reason that these countries, many of which would never normally rally to our side, is because of the gravity of the situation, how awful this was.
		It was mass murder, Sherry.
unidentified		And I won't, yes it was.
		And I won't say that we deserved it.
		Well, then what I will say is that we did bring it upon ourselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By doing what?
unidentified		We just don't stay out of other people's business.
		We just always have to be there.
		And people look to us to police the world, to fight their battles, to rebuild their cities after we tear them down for them.
		You know, if I had my way, I would call every American citizen home, kick every non-citizen out, put the military on our borders, and start cleaning up our own backyard first.
		You know, I think we're tired.
		We're tired of putting on shoes made in Japan, waving flags made in China, sitting in Japanese cars and putting Arab oil in it.
		Sherry, we want to eat American food grown by American farmers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, take a breath, Sherry.
		Our country, when it was founded, was founded on open arms, freedom, and offering freedom to the oppressed of the world.
		And there still are many oppressed in the world.
unidentified		At a different time in history.
unidentified		I don't think you can compare that time in history.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you want to put our military in from all over the world, and you want to put them on our borders.
unidentified		On our own borders.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which begins to resemble a kind of a police state, Sherry, really.
unidentified		No, just on our border.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On our border.
unidentified		Well?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Americans are used to free travel.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		If our borders were protected, we could travel freely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, going across borders rather freely.
unidentified		Well, if you want to do that, you do it at your own risk.
		These two women, who are being held there now.
		did, in fact, go there trying to push Christianity on these people.
		What did they expect?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they could.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They face a possible death sentence.
unidentified		They're on their own.
		That's insanity.
		That's about as insane as Gaddafi or Hussein or bin Laden.
		I mean, think about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, most Americans are also used to the freedom of religion and being able to proselytize if they want to.
unidentified		These people surely had to be educated enough.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, here in America, Sherry, here in America, you can proselytize.
		You can go to an airport if you want, I suppose.
		Well, maybe not these days.
		And preach the Word of God if that's what pleases you.
unidentified		And if you want that in your life, and if you believe that's what's right, fine.
		Just like if you want freedom and liberty in your country and you believe it's the best thing in the world going, fine.
		That doesn't give you the right to inflict it on other people.
		And clearly it's not right for all people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My goodness.
		Well, all right.
		So if you were in charge, Sherry, you would not.
unidentified		I would clean up the trash in our own backyard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you would not respond to this?
unidentified		At this point, probably not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, I think I've got it.
		Thank you very much, Sherry.
		There's another.
		Not quite as frightened as some, but you get the idea, I'm sure.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
		Hello.
unidentified		Oh, I'm sorry.
		Did you say East?
		No.
		It doesn't matter.
		Are you talking to me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I am.
unidentified		I'm talking to you, yes.
		Yes.
		Yeah, kind of agreed with some of the stuff she said, but it just gets down to, I wanted to ask you about something that I've been thinking about, but it does get down to just if you're attacked, you have to battle.
		What is, you know, what else is it, right?
		Probably a woman, she sounded maybe, you know, that she might have been behind a concentration camp if they hadn't have gone to war.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, except if they hadn't held.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If somebody comes after you to murder you or your family, what do you do?
unidentified		You battle.
unidentified		You battle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A battle.
unidentified		If you don't want to call it a war, call it a battle.
unidentified		You know, and it's gone on since time, hasn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You just object to the word.
		Actually, I'm rather pleased that they're using the word war, to be honest with you, because in the past we've always used police action.
		Then we've had advisors.
		And, you know, we've called a lot of different things Operation This and Operation That.
		Let's face it, when somebody blows away 210-story buildings, hits the Pentagon, kills thousands of Americans, that's war.
unidentified		Murders, yeah.
		Murders.
		And I agree with you.
		I totally agree with you.
		And, you know, people that have hurt you so before I ask you this question, who have hurt you so about, I've learned to just ignore them because I know I've been taught, I've been spiritual since I was two, that people are just trying to find God, but some of them are doing it at a very low level.
		That's what I've been taught.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or maybe they're looking for God in places that he is not.
unidentified		Right.
		And that's where they perceive it from and their ideas.
		And so I just ignore them.
		They don't bother me at all.
		But, you know, I too am a reader and a writer.
		I wrote you a letter.
		Probably the only one who ever wrote you a letter.
		But anyway, something just doesn't make sense to me.
		This madman who is arrogant and probably too smart for his own good, okay?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder if he is a madman.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a good question for me.
unidentified		Well, I kind of, after dealing with some of them in this country, I see it just a madness from a country that their culture is not humane.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, from our perspective, certainly he's a madman.
		It's easy to sit here and call him that, but I really don't know a whole lot about Osama bin Laden.
		I want to know more.
		And so I guess that's what I'll try and do tonight.
unidentified		Well, then we're probably on the same page about him because what I'm going to say to you is it doesn't make any sense to me when he did this that afterwards this country would be on such alert and looking in every corner and every day I hear about more being arrested and all these false IDs.
		That doesn't make any sense to me that he would know that this would happen.
		So why do what he did and then have this happen?
		So maybe all these rats from a whole bunch of things are coming out.
		Do you know what I'm saying?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Yeah.
		It's just, I'm a writer, and in fact, just before this happened, I submitted a screenplay to a director, actor on a terrace movie right before this happened.
		And if I was writing this, that just would not make sense to me.
		Maybe when you have your author on tonight, something just doesn't jive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We will ask.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, dear.
unidentified		Thank you, dear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		Yeah, we sure will ask.
		I was astounded that this book was written.
		You know, I immediately, of course, checked.
		I said, this just can't be.
		And I checked the date.
		And, of course, it was written in 2000 and originally came out in 2000, I guess.
		And then in August of 2001, it hit the bookshelves.
		And I just, I couldn't believe it.
		So I thought I'd have them on the air.
		First time call online, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hi.
		Hi.
		This is Denny from Odesto.
		Yes.
		I was trying to call in last night, and I'm glad I didn't because I was so hot.
		Where are these people coming from?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you just heard another one.
unidentified		It's beyond me.
		Because I look at my husband every day, and I thank him that he, or thank God that he was not on that plane, one of those planes, or in those towers.
		I want these people tomorrow, when their kids get up, when their wives, their brothers, their mothers, whoever, the people closest to them, look them in the face and say, when these terrorists hit us again, I'm not going to do anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I thought one man in one of the debates last night had it down as close as you could get it.
		He said, look, what's it going to take?
		Your wife, your brother, your mother, your husband?
unidentified		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it going to take that before you want to do something about this?
		Or you've got to wonder if some of these people, maybe they're what they really say they are.
		And maybe even if somebody in their own family or their own family was slaughtered, they would continue to take this give peace a chance position.
unidentified		Then they're cowards.
		Our country was founded on, and everybody wants to preach about the Bible and what history is.
		Well, our history was founded on our forefathers fighting for what we have today.
		If we do not strike back and take justice for those two people holding hands as they fell out of the tower, or that little baby that died in the car when the tower fell on him, if we don't take justice, our own children are going to grow up with this happening like it does in Egypt or Pakistan, going to the market and not knowing if you're coming home.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or the people in Flight 93.
		The people who, I just, I could never, I'm not over it.
		There was a man who spoke to his wife, and she told him that, you know, the tower, one of the towers at that point had been hit.
		So he knew damn well where that plane was going.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They took a vote on the aircraft.
		You know, this fellow had a two-month-old baby in the plane with him.
		They took a vote on that aircraft, and they went up front and crashed that airplane.
unidentified		He is going to be in history.
		When people remember the heroes of what happened that Tuesday, they're going to remember him.
		And they're going to remember the people on that plane.
		Because they did something.
		They stood up and said, no, you are not going to take any more lives.
		You are not going to ruin our country.
		There's people in this country that will take a stand, and they did it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's why the positions of these people, these peace nicks, peace of any price, I guess, it's beyond my understanding.
		And I'm being flooded with it.
		I mean, I'm absolutely being flooded with it.
		I picked out, you may have heard me read some emails at the beginning of the week.
unidentified		Yeah, it was pretty unbelievable.
unidentified		My hand was on the floor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, those were some of the milder ones.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, take care.
unidentified		Bye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies?
		No, make that wildcard line.
		You're on the air.
		Hello?
		Hello.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Mr. Bell?
		Yes.
		Yes.
		I haven't got my radio on, but there seems to be an echo.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not hearing it, so that's all.
unidentified		Oh, okay.
		It's just on my line.
		I wanted to thank you for bringing both sides of this issue to the light last night.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		Okay, because only in this country could these kind of fools say what they said.
		In Afghanistan, they'd have been shot for treason.
		No doubt about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, listen to this.
		When you see a forum like this, now I'm hearing the echo.
		When you see a radio program, let me see if I can get rid of this damn echo.
		Hold on.
		When you see a radio program like this disappear, when it leaves the airwaves and others like it, and you cannot any longer say things like this, and you never know, someday it could get there.
		It's like a little beacon in the night.
		When that disappears, then you know we're in trouble.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
unidentified		You know, that we don't live in America anymore.
		Our America isn't what it used to be.
		Let me change my phone for a second.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		Is that better?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's better.
unidentified		Okay, but anyway, and you had said last night that fear had brought this out, okay?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, certainly in some cases, because they were wringing their hands.
unidentified		Oh, my God, you know, it could lead to World War III.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It could lead to this.
		It could lead to that.
		It could lead to more attacks.
		If we go hit them, they're going to hit us even harder.
		That's what I heard last night.
unidentified		Absolutely.
		But, you know, I've been looking at this for the last two weeks pretty hard.
		And, you know, we faced this before in Iraq.
		And, you know, those troops, his Republican Guard, were supposed to be ready to be martyred to go to Allah.
		And, you know what?
		They were out of there in, what, three, four weeks after we started?
		It won't be any different in Afghanistan.
		I don't believe it will.
		I believe he'll turn tail and run because they're not like our country where our sons and daughters fight voluntarily.
		These people are forced into service, most of them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I do believe this boy is there in Echo.
		I do believe this is possible.
		I believe that there are probably sleepers in this country.
		And I used to scoff at this sort of thing, but I think there are sleepers, agents in this country, ready to probably do what Osama bin Laden wants when he gives the order.
		And I think that if we hit him, they probably will give that order.
		And so we've got to face up to it.
		We may face more terror.
unidentified		Oh, we will.
		And those are the guys who are going to be dangerous to us, the ones inside the border.
		And we're going to have to be very, very careful about checking IDs and routing these people out.
		And the Islamic nation in this country needs to step forward and throw these guys out, you know, make their presence known to the government.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they're making arrests all over the world.
		I'm hearing just tonight I read to you about the latest arrests of people getting these hazardous material permits illegally that may be connected to the terrorists.
		My God.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
		Yeah.
		I mean, any of this is going to be all of these doors will be open to them because our government is wide open.
		And that's why we're a great government.
		Unfortunately, I wanted to know, have you seen a special called Lifting the Veil?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As a matter of fact, CNN profiled it earlier tonight about the women of Afghanistan.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I would recommend everybody in America watch that program and maybe they get a better idea of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll second that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got to go.
unidentified		Thank you, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much, and good night.
		We'll be back shortly with David Heckberg.
		His book is Joshua's Hammer.
		It's an awesome book.
		Stay right there.
unidentified		You're listening to Arkbell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an oncore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 2001.
		Come walk me, run a dime a day away.
		Can't ever see, you always smile for the people you need.
		On trouble and stride, you got another way to get it right.
		Children that have autism.
		Music Go round by the wind Throw down in a spell I
		I begin by the way I play to the top.
		I gave you all I have to give.
		Why did it have to stop?
		You're blowing all sky high by telling me a lie without a reason why.
		You're blowing all sky high.
		You're blowing all sky high.
		I love that things to fly.
		You couldn't touch the sky.
		You're blowing all sky high.
		Oh, now I go.
		Then down, down, down, down.
		Premier Radio Networks presents Ark Bell somewhere in time.
		Tonight's program originally aired September 26, 2001.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Normally, authors search me out because coming on the radio or television is probably a good way to sell books, no question about it.
		In this case, I searched out an author.
		His name is David Hagburg, and he's written a book called Joshua's Hemmer.
		Let me tell my story briefly again several days ago.
		My wife knew I was out of reading material.
		I'm an avid reader.
		I just, I read, I gobble books, as does my wife.
		We both are, actually.
		And I was out of books.
		You know, I had read my last good book.
		I love thrillers.
		I love adventure.
		I love high drama.
		I love Tom Clancy.
		I love Dean Kuntz.
		And so my wife spied this book for me at Albertson's, I don't know, three or four days ago.
		It's called Joshua's Hammer.
		And Dean Kuntz said of it, if you're looking for thrillers with international intrigue, Hagberg is a major find.
		And he sure is.
		Let me read you.
		This is why my wife bought it for me.
		The back of the book says the following.
		When a one-kiloton Russian nuclear demolitions bomb the size of a suitcase ends up in the hands of Saudi multi-millionaire Osama bin Laden, the entire world sits up and takes notice.
		And when the U.S. launches an attack on the terrorist base of operations in Afghanistan, killing his daughter, retaliation against America is inevitable.
		Now, Kirk McGarvey, the hero of our story, I guess, is in for the race of his life in a race against Ty McGarvey, has to find out how the bomb will get to the U.S., where it'll be detonated, and when this, the worst terrorist attack in U.S. history, will take place.
		But not only must McGarvey stop the bomb, he must protect his own daughter and the daughter of the president of the U.S. from a savage act of retaliation by a man gone mad.
		Now, David is a New York Times bestseller author with his book High Flight and I guess Critical Mass, The White House, a book called White House.
		But this one, I thought, you know, some publisher has just somehow squeaked this thing out since the attack.
		And so I opened the book before I ever called him.
		And I noticed that, as you will, that this book actually came out first edition, August of 2000.
		And first mass market edition, June of 2001.
		So in my eyes, this book is prophetic.
		Not only is it prophetic, it's in the style of Clancy.
		It's a long book.
		It's about 500 and some odd pages, 525 or so pages long.
		And the insights, though it's a novel, into the Central Intelligence Agency, this whole thing is written from the point of view of inside the CIA.
		And I mean really inside the CIA.
		And it's written, it takes you right into bin Laden's camp.
		It takes you right into bin Laden's organization.
		And the insights into both bin Laden and the CIA, I thought, were more than a little coincidental.
		And so earlier today, I said to myself, God, I'm reading this.
		I really ought to get hold of the author.
		And so we began to pursue David Hagberg, and I found him.
		And he's up really late in Florida.
		So coming up in a moment, the author of Joshua's Hammer, by the way, if you want to know more about it, you can probably get it on Amazon.com.
		I'm sure we've got links to that.
		I hope.
		Let me see.
		Do we?
		Yes, we do.
		In fact, actually, all you have to do is click on the book.
		Go to artbell.com, my website.
		Go to program tonight's guest info, and just click on the book, and it will take you to where you can get it.
		I got it at Albertson's.
		I think that may have been the last copy.
unidentified		you'll probably have to go to amazon dot com you may get a better price than i did the Now let's go back to the night of September 26th, 2001 on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
unidentified		The End All right, here we go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As promised, all the way from Florida up very late this morning is David Hagberg.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		David, welcome to the program.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Morning, Art.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		I didn't think anybody was up this late or early, but here I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, they are, David.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, as I explained, we were talking earlier.
		In the early days, I was learning how to write, I did everything from bartending to bricklaying, but I did a stint for a year in a factory building lawnmowers, commercial lawnmowers.
		It was like the midnight to 8 in the morning shift or whatever it was.
		And so at 8 o'clock, we get off work at the factory and go down to the local bar and have a couple of beers.
		And people would drive by and say, look at those drunks out there.
		So we weren't drunks.
		It was just afternoon, hour afternoon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Whole different world out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's my morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Believe me, with regard to Joshua's Hammer, when your book has made it to Albertson's supermarket in Perump, Nevada, you've made it, brother.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I was amazed when you were telling me where it was.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Shame on me, I've never heard of it, what, Perump?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, L. Close, Perump.
unidentified		Perump.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As in Perump, Pump, Pump.
		I've never heard of it.
		Most people have not.
		Most people have not.
		And I actually enjoy that fact.
		David, you know, I'm not that far into your book right now.
		A couple of days worth of reading myself to sleep into your book.
		And I couldn't believe it.
		How in the world could you have so much insight into the inside of the CIA?
		So many operational details about the CIA.
		Maybe too many.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's the easy answer that you tell if you're an author and you tell that cocktail party and somebody says, well, how do you know so much?
		And say, well, look, I write fiction.
		I make it all up.
		And then there's the more difficult answer that I've been doing this for 40 years.
		1960, as a young man out of high school, I joined the Air Force and passed whatever aptitude tests right away.
		They put me in cryptography.
		And that was at the very, very beginning of electronic cryptography, which had been designed and invented and built by the National Security Agency, another outfit that nobody had heard of in those days, even though it was bigger than the CIA.
		And so I got into the world for seven and a half years up in Thule, Greenland, in an old Nazi bunker in Germany where we built the largest cryptographic center in the world.
		We're listening to Russians and headgy stuff, like I mean, really nifty stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I thought that only airmen or were you airmen or an officer?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Airmen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Airmen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I thought only airmen that took after Colonel's daughters went to Tui.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		No, it's actually a wonderful place.
		There's a girl behind every tree.
		Because every tree on the whole island.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		You know, I found that a fascinating place.
		We're not going to digress and get off into that.
		That was called a ballistic missile early warning system.
		It's one of their sites.
		They had these great, big, huge radar antennas, the size of football fields, turned on edge, looking toward Russia because the attack wasn't going to come, it was going to come over the pools.
		Well, the first day they turned these things on, it was nighttime, they got this huge scatter return.
		It looked like the entire Russian Air Force was coming over the pool.
		And they were going to push the panic button.
		Some bright engineers went outside and looked up toward that direction and saw the moon.
		They were bouncing these radar signals off the moon.
		And that was the scatter coming back.
		So, I mean, this was the backdrop under which my education and this sort of a business began.
		And, you know, I was a cocky young kid and excited as hell.
		Those are, I want to say great times, but they're bad times.
		You know, Kennedy's assassination.
		That's a date that will live just like December 9-11 will live in everybody's mind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, forever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand you have actually spoken to the CIA or been a speaker for the CIA?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah.
		Sometimes a flap copy of the jacket covey on the books gives you just a tad more than what really was.
		What happened, and this is a number of times I've spoken to a number of CIA people, but I was the, how do I put that, I was the dinner speaker, guest speaker, the luncheon speaker, the annual meeting of this group, and they call themselves the Government Employees Association.
		And it was over in Clearwater, Florida, a couple of years ago.
		And I did a little speech about real-life intelligence agencies at that time, the CIA, the KGB, and the Israeli Mossad.
		These are the three top, were the top three top agencies at the time.
		And there were about 400 people in the audience, and I got this huge standing ovation at the end.
		I thought, you know, this is pretty cool.
		This is kind of neat.
		And afterwards, cocktails are talking, and this guy and his wife were there, and he said, you know who and what we are?
		And I said, no, he said, we're all CIA and NSA agents.
		I almost fell to the floor.
		He says, you're telling us things, some things that we didn't know because we're so compartmentalized.
		So since then, I know, I've gotten to know quite a few.
		CIA, former director of communications, the CIA.
		As a matter of fact, right here in town, a friend of mine, a gal, is an attorney now.
		She was a field operative over in Czechoslovakia, and she followed a trail across Europe that led to the United States and led to the downing, and she had blown the whistle, but too late, led to the downing of that, what was it, I want to say Pan Am or TWA 800, the one over Long Island?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that was 800, and yeah, 800, right.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		And she had heard rumors.
		There had been the rumor going around Europe at the time that that was going to be a target.
		As it turns out, it was just an explosion of fuel tank, the best they can figure.
		And the CIA did do scenarios, computer simulations on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder how really sure we are that that was not a terrorist attack.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		You know, how sure can you be of anything except death and taxes, I guess?
		The best studied opinion that we have is that the fuel tank, the fumes of the fuel tank exploded.
		And we're going through a number of scenarios now to try to stop that, like putting nitrogen gas, pumping nitrogen gas as a fuel tank in an airplane empties, put nitrogen gas there.
		It's inert.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, but you know, looking back, David, there were an awful lot of people who saw a missile.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There were even some photographs.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's what CIA did, this computer simulation.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		They find out that, you know, if you talk to people and they see a lightning strike, they'll swear on a stack of vibes the lightning came out of the sky and hit the ground.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But in fact, it went from the ground to the sky.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		And so the reverse is true.
		They feel, they think on the airplane that there was a sharp explosion that came through a seam or whatever in the tank and it was a real sharp spurt of hot gas and the eye just says, well, you know, it looked like there was a missile streak going up to the airplane just before the explosion.
		So, you know, there's still people who believe that Lincoln assassination was a conspiracy.
		And maybe.
		You know, there's no way of knowing that, at least not for me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you've got to believe in conspiracies, don't you?
		Because look what they just did.
		I mean, what kind of complex operation, David, would it have been for somebody to simultaneously hijack four jets, plow them into 210-story buildings, bring the buildings down, killing thousands, and then plow into Pentagon on top of that?
		And probably, if Flight 93 hadn't stopped, courtesy of the passengers, real heroes, that would have plowed into the White House.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		I couldn't have written those heroes on that flight.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		That would have been hard.
unidentified		My publisher would have said, no, come on, we're that.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Our average people aren't that heroic, but average people are that heroic.
		Apparently they are.
		A monument should be made.
		You've got to understand that Osama bin Laden isn't some knee-jerk stupid guy.
		A lot of Americans now think all Arabs are stupid, which is hardly the truth.
		This guy is very, very bright, very well educated.
		And we can get into his background later, but he started this thing called, he didn't start it, but he took over a thing called Al-Qaeda or Al-Qaeda.
		It just means loosely the base.
		And he has surrounded himself with doctors, lawyers, building engineers.
		You want to bring down a building?
		Let's talk to the engineers and see how it's done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you say that Al-Qaeda means the base?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		It means the base.
		It was started out by my brain at this hour of the morning.
		There was an Arab terrorist who started this.
		I want to say Pakistani, but he's not.
		Probably Yemeni or something.
		And they started it in Pakistan near the border with Afghanistan.
		It was for the freedom fighters, the Afghani freedom fighters, when they're fighting the Russians.
		They call them Mujahideen.
		And it was a safe haven.
		It was a place where these guys could, nobody's shooting at them.
		They'd be trained.
		They'd be given good food, medicine, and weapons.
		By the way, in that war, the CIA was supplying Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden and his crew.
		And so Osama took this over.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He was fighting the Russians.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, fighting the Russians.
		That's what it is.
		And he was very much in our corner.
		We were in his corner.
		And so this base, he took it over, and it's a worldwide...
		I want to say Garden City, New Jersey, or out there somewhere has got links to this.
		And it's very loose.
		I mean, they don't have meetings as such.
		Let's say there's Bin Laden and Meshwari is number two guy.
		And there's maybe 10 or 12 men in the elite circle.
		And then it goes out into cells all around the world.
		And each cell doesn't know what the other one's doing.
		But if he wants to know, let's say, how to take down a building, they'll get together with a couple of building engineers and say, well, you do it this way.
		You can put a couple of bombs in the basement of this place and knock over one tower.
		It'll fall into the other tower and knock everything down.
		At the same time, we'll throw in a little cyanide gas to go through the system to kill the rescue workers.
		Well, they tried that a few years ago and it didn't work.
		And it should have been a wake-up call because some of the guys they arrested for that bombing of the World Trade Center were trained airline pilots.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I didn't know that.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, it's been in the news, but it was something that, okay, so they're trained pilots.
		Who cares?
		Who gives a damn?
		They were bombing the building.
		They weren't flying an airplane, but, you know, it was kind of a wake-up call.
		These guys have been in this country for some time now, and so this, it's a heck of a lot easier to go into a basement of a building in a van and blow it up than it is to hijack an airliner and pop it into the building.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Even at that, when these airliners slammed into the buildings, I did not think the buildings were going to go down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		However, I've been informed that at about 800 degrees centigrade, the metal begins to melt, and they obviously must have known that jet fuel would accomplish that for them.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		That's why they took Transcontinental Airliners at the beginnings of the journeys because they were filled with fuel.
		It was a pretty efficient way, coldly efficient, when you think about the way of putting a bomb up there.
		And you've got to bet Shabbat dollar that Bin Laden's boys, his engineers, understood, here's how you bring down a building.
		You start the upper floors burning and they start to collapse on each other and bingo.
		What surprised me was that, and maybe they had planned this, but if you want to be really cold-blooded about this, and he's done these kinds of things with the Russians on a lesser scale, of course, that you cause a catastrophe, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		And in the aftermath of the catastrophe, when all the rescue workers are coming in, you create another catastrophe there to kill the rescue workers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which is what they did.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Well, yeah, in effect, because the buildings came down.
		But I was holding my breath, and it sounds like I'm a ghoulish macabre person, but I'm exactly the opposite.
		I was holding my breath waiting after these buildings collapsed, as far as going.
		And all the police and firemen are there looking for their comrades, looking for people.
		I was just holding my breath that another airplane or bomb or something didn't pop off right there at ground zero.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, as it was, the New York City Fire Department lost over half its members.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, isn't that amazing?
		And there's more heroes.
		I've always admired firemen.
		I'm not just saying this for the moment, but I always have had a great, great admiration for firemen.
		I remember back in the 60s, during those inner city 70s, I guess, the inner city riots where the city of Detroit and that inner city was burning and firemen were coming in and people were shooting at them and the firemen still came in and fires.
		They were there to save lives.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do want to talk about, you know, a lot of people here say, and I guess from our perspective, Osama bin Laden is a madman.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I have this feeling that he's not really a madman, or is he?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		I guess you have to define what mad is.
		I mean, is it psychosis?
		Is it paranoid, clinical paranoia or whatever?
		That I don't know.
		I know that he's a man of dedication.
		He's a man of great zeal.
		I made up in my book why I think he went from this young playboy with tons and tons of money who gambled in London, who just jet-setted around the world.
		I mean, this guy was living a high life, and he decided, as a lot of young men will do, when the Russians invaded Afghanistan, which is a fellow Islamic country, fine, let's go in and do what we can and have a good time, boys.
		Let's drink a few drinks and kill us some Russians.
		And he did that for 10 years to the point that he became a hero of the people because he didn't live in some palace, Jerry.
		He was living right in the dirt and eating the same food that his soldiers were eating.
		But somewhere along the line, he decided that America was the evil enemy, the West is the evil enemy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would like to try and understand how he made that decision.
		Hold on a moment, David.
		We're going to take a break here at the bottom of the hour.
		David Hagberg is my guest.
		If you want to see more about his book, Joshua's Hammer, check my website.
unidentified		I'm Art Bell.
		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 2001.
		Music I don't hear asking, what's going on?
		I don't hear asking, I know so much.
		I don't know.
		Don't say that you love me.
		I don't know that you love me.
		I don't know.
		Let your hands fall out of the ground, all for all your taking place, just at the end, just at the end, everything I see.
		Let your hands fall out of the ground, all for all your taking place, just at the end, everything I see.
		Beating cloud shares and swords.
		Father's title men of the Landing.
		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from September 26th, 2001.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The author of the book I'm reading now, David Hagberg, is my guest.
		He's written a book called Joshua's Hammer.
		And if you like Clancy, you're going to love Hagberg.
		If you go to my website now and click on the book cover, you know, go to tonight's guest info and click on the book cover, it'll take you to Amazon.com.
		It's a paperback, and check this out, folks.
		They're going to go out of business.
		They keep doing this.
		It's $6.47 on Amazon.com.
		$6.47.
		My, my, my, my.
		All right.
		We'll be right back with David.
unidentified		David.
		You're listening to Arc Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 2001.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, David Hackberg.
		David, welcome back.
		All right.
		El Sama bin Laden is the bad guy in your book.
		And I do have to ask you about that.
		I mean, how you even wrote this and what you felt like when you saw all of this coming down on the 11th.
		After writing this book, you must have gone, oh my God.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was.
		I was working and my daughter lives down at Fort Lauderdale.
		She called me and said, Dad, I said, yeah, she dared.
		How are you doing this morning?
		She said, they hit the New York Trade Tower.
		I said, don't tell me another bomb or something.
		She said no, an airplane hit it.
		I said, well, they stick up out of the sky and there's been something here, Miss Os.
unidentified		She said, yeah.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		And I said, okay, she's going to talk to you later.
		And a little while later, she said, Dad, I'm watching another airplane just went in.
		I said, oh, God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You knew what it was, then?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so I turned on the television and I watched those replays over and over again.
		And besides being horrified, my son called and said, what do I think?
		And I said, I think that if I were to write that particular scenario, that's exactly how I would write it.
		I mean, that's what it would look like in my mind's eye if I wrote a thing that way.
		And it's just, I mean, you know, I can understand that I write fiction.
		I make this stuff up.
		And it's based on true life.
		But in my books, there's always a happy ending.
		The good guys always win, and everything's tidy and neat and tied up at the end.
		The real life, real world, it ain't always that so.
		You know, it's not always that way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Unfortunately.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you know about Osama bin Laden?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, he's a bright guy.
		He's twisted, for some reason, nobody really knows yet.
		I don't know if we'll ever know, but he's twisted this religion, Islam, so out of proportion to what I mean the Quran.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you were saying, though, that he was a playboy.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		his dad was born very, very poor in Yemen and moved to Saudi Arabia.
		He had a whole ton of wives.
		I think he's got like 50 kids.
		And he got a construction contract to do something for the Saudis, and he did it well.
		And then they said, all right, Kate, you're doing a good job.
		Do Madiana and Mecca.
		These are the two holiest places for all of Islam.
		And he rebuilt those two holy places.
		And he was in like, yeah, this is big.
		And so the family became instant multi-billionaires.
		And so Sama's a young man, lots of kids.
		He was one of the favored sons.
		He went off to university in Cairo and studied business.
		He went to London.
		He was a playboy, drank, raised, till, gambled, and all that.
		And then he went off to Afghanistan to help fight the Russians because they were against the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan.
		And something happened to him out there.
		Nobody knows quite yet, but he went from this playboy image to this, I don't know any other word than religious zealot.
		And his sole aim at the time, he says, I want Western influences out of the East, out of the Arabian Peninsula, Saudi Arabia.
		And I don't know whether, I mean, there's some speculation.
		So here, Saddam Hussein, a little ragtag band of poorly fed, poorly equipped Afghani, Mujahideen kicked this big Russian army out of Afghanistan.
		And so he had this win, and maybe that reinforced him.
		What's the old saying?
		Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
		He was adored by these people.
		I mean, almost to a godlike status.
		And he might have begun to believe his own PR.
		And at some point during the Gulf War, when Saudi allowed us to basing privileges for our fighter aircraft and that they go in and kick Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait, remember the Arabs look on that whole thing quite differently than Americans do too, because Kuwait really is a province or was a province of Iraq, and so Hussein was just doing what he thought was right, and a lot of Arabs thought was right.
		Nonetheless, at that point, bin Laden said he wants all Americans out of Saudi Arabia, period M statement.
		And he was so rabid about it that the Saudi ruling family kicked him out of the country, which reinforced his anger even more.
		And at some point, he issued what's called a fatwa.
		And that is a religious or holy order.
		And here's a guy.
		He's not an Imman or a preacher or anything, but he issued a holy order saying that it is every Muslim's duty any place, anywhere, at any time to kill any and all Americans.
		That's men, women, children.
		I don't care what they're doing, where they are.
		Your duty is to kill them now.
unidentified		Now, that's not religion.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		That's not Islam.
		That's not the Muslim religion.
		And the Quran is a beautiful book that is far less violent than, let's say, our Bible.
		The basic, they believe, you're shaving in the morning, right?
		You look in the mirror, and you see your mirror image.
		It's exactly you, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		But it isn't you.
		It's just a mirror image.
		Well, that's what a Muslim believes, that our bodies, ourselves, our lives here on earth, are nothing more than a mirror image of our real selves which dwell in paradise with Allah.
		And when it's time, we will show polite and we'll go, the mirror image will be gone, and we'll be where we're supposed to be.
		Now, that's pretty.
		That's not violence.
		That's not suicide bombers or killing innocent women and children.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you may not have an answer for this, but I have concluded myself, after all, there's been no, since this occurred, no credit taken essentially for it.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		No, he usually never does.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No demands made for change in U.S. policy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's just kind of like they want us dead.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		They want us dead.
		They want us out of the Saudi Arabian Peninsula.
		They want us out of the Arabian Peninsula.
		They want us out of there.
		And they want Israel out of the area.
		They want all Westerners out of the whole area.
		Just stay away.
		They say, we're the ones who invented atomic bombs.
		We're the bad guys.
		We're the ones who invented our need for oil, which has ruined the whole region, our insatiable appetite for oil.
		They want us out of there.
		They want to cap the oil.
		Well, they just want to finish it all and get rid of us.
		Now, they don't.
		I'm saying Osama bin Laden does.
		I keep saying Saddam Hussein, but he's right there with that.
		Only his motives are even more less religious.
		They're more secular, if you will.
		He's just power.
unidentified		is power hungry well after all we hope the modern uh...
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		while he was fighting the russians we don't know that yet enough thing in my book i speculate that he has a run-in with a with this c_i_a_ agent to uh...
		i don't get ahead of the footer reading but i'm sorry that's all right In fact, I modeled her after my friend here in town.
		And so he kills her, and then that's the Arab male.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was going to say that makes it worse.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		Now nobody knows.
		Nobody really knows.
		It could be even Osama himself does not know.
		His family has disowned him.
		He has a brother, had a brother, I think it was a brother living here in Florida.
		And his brother had disowned him.
		In fact, they closed down their house.
		I think it was Lauderdale, closed down their house and boogie back to Saudi Arabia.
		I don't know what.
		Yeah.
		In fact, he had a brother up in, I want to say somewhere in Maryland, Baltimore, something like that.
		Understand the bin Laden family, a dad has like about 50 or 60 kids.
		Bin Laden himself has three wives and maybe several dozen children.
		And what a way to treat your wife and family.
		They're living in caves.
unidentified		In caves in the mountains of Afghanistan.
unidentified		Are we going to be able to find them?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		I'm not laughing because I think it's funny.
		I'm laughing out of irony.
		It depends upon whether we want to get our hands dirty or not.
		And a couple days after this event happened, a friend of mine said, well, are we going to ask the same question?
		And I very nastily said, yes, we'll find them if we don't mind collateral damage.
		And I said, they didn't give a damn about collateral damage when they hit the World Trade Center.
		So who cares about some Afghani women and children?
		And I thought, I said, my God, David, I've become, I'm preaching the same tone from the same book that he's preaching from.
		He said, no, no, no.
		If we're going to get him, it's going to be tough.
		It's going to be a long way.
		He's got some very, very, very close and loyal followers.
		We're going to have to have human intelligence, something the CIA hasn't had for a long time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not only that, but in this case, it's a double problem because we don't look like they do.
		We don't have the same religion they have.
		We don't understand how they live and what they think about it.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		That goes back to what's called human intelligence.
		And it's during the Carter administration, and a lot of subsequent president sent to him says as the United States, we're the guiding light, the shining beacon of morality, or I don't know morality, but of the way people are supposed to live and act in the world.
		And that means that the CIA and FBI are not going to deal with the murderers and the rapists and the drug dealers of that world.
		We're going to use our satellites to electronic eavesdropping to give us intelligence.
		The fact of the matter is you don't get enough intelligence that way.
		And the guys who belong to these terrorist organizations are the druggies and the rapists and the murderers.
		And if you want human intelligence, human it's called, then you have to deal with these people.
		Well, we haven't.
		And that's why we have this big hole in our intelligence.
		Which means what you do is for money.
		CIA calls it mice.
		People defect for what's called mice, M-I-C-E, money, ideology, conscience, or ego.
		and uh...
		school will catch one way or another using money and sometimes ideology some of the world No, no, not definitely.
		Well, no, I don't think so.
		I think it's a mere coincidence that the acronym spells the word mice.
		Like Hans, and although he got, you know, Hansley defected, that FBI guy, he defected, it seemed like money, but it wasn't so much money.
		It was for ego.
		The guy just thought he was better than everybody else.
		Same way with Eldritch Ames.
		It was ego.
		The guy just thought he was better than everybody else.
		He couldn't be caught.
		And it was a big game.
		And also his money with him.
		The CIA never noticed that this guy was making $50,000 or $60,000 a year.
		His credit card bills alone, which he paid in cash for $30,000 a month, paid cash for an $850,000 house in, I think it was in McLean.
		And he drove brand new Jaguar every year.
		And he dressed in, I don't throw Armani suits, but they were of that level.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Somebody should have noticed.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, somebody should have noticed.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		But, you know, we were talking earlier, it's one of the downsides of living in a free and open society.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, by the way, I'm sitting on television.
		This is being called a massive intelligence failure.
		And I suppose it is.
		What's it like tonight, this morning, in the CIA, and since this has happened, what's it like?
		I know.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of shake-ups going on, and a lot of pressure on the White House or on Congress to change, to level the playing field.
		I mean, it's like playing a football game, and other guys got full pads, and they've got 50 guys on their squad.
		You've got two or three guys wearing no pads, and you could only run backwards on one foot with one eye closed.
		Well, are you going to win that game?
		You're not.
		You're not.
		So the CIA says, let's ask Congress, please take off the blinders.
		We don't want to trample on anybody's constitutional rights, but take off the blinders.
		Let us play the game the way these, I don't want to say bastards on radio, but I already have, the way these guys are playing the game.
		Let's level the playing field, and we will win.
		Trust me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I believe we'll win, too.
		The question is, at what cost, both domestically and where we have to go after him?
		You said we've got to get our hands dirty.
		To me, that means we've got to go in on the ground, probably.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
		But they're doing it right, in my estimation.
		And again, I'm just a novelist.
		I'm an observer of this.
		I'm not the mover and shaker.
		But they're doing it right.
		They're not sending in massive ground force on.
		They're going to send in some elite squads.
		I know some guys who are SEALs in the SEALs.
		In fact, the SEAL UDT Museum is just 10 miles south of my house, which is an amazing place.
		You see the list on the wall of the guys, the SEALs, the UTT guys who won Congressional Medal of Honor.
		At any rate, this is what we need.
		We need this Northern Alliance to give us intelligence where Osama might be hiding out.
		We've got to track this guy down, put a bullet between his eyes.
		I'm not going to bring him home to trial.
		Put a bullet between his eyes, turn around, get out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I've had some callers who have said, fine, we kill Osama bin Laden.
		Then what?
		Somebody just takes his place.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		No, not at that level.
		Absolutely not at that level.
		I mean, let's say Civil War, somebody had got a lucky shot and killed Ulysses S. Grant or killed Robert E. Lee.
		It would have changed the entire war.
		Somebody kills Patton.
		Somebody kills Rommel at the beginning of the African campaign.
		Somebody kills Adolf Hitler in 1938.
		No, no, no.
		Things would be far different.
		This man is charismatic.
		He's got bajillions of dollars.
		No, he's the glue and the brains that hold this thing.
		Yes, this place, the Al-Qaeda, would not fall apart, but it sure wouldn't be the same, nowhere near the same organization.
		Amnesty International says there are 10,000 terrorist organizations extant in the world today.
		There's only a handful, I mean a small handful, three or four, maybe five, including bin Laden's organization, that are willing to do suicide attacks.
		And that's how these guys win this game.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, hard to stop anybody who's willing to die.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		Thank you.
		Some of the best security service in the world couldn't keep, was a bag Ian alive when a guy just came in and pumped a few rounds into his back.
		The guy was willing.
		He didn't kill him, but he was willing to die.
		Willing to die for his cause.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's all it takes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're very hard to stop, of course.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Almost impossible to stop.
		But how do you stop it?
		We've got a 3,000-mile border with Canada, let's say.
		We only have 200 customs agents guarding that border.
		That's our country.
		We're open.
		That's what makes us so great.
		So we stop that.
		They've already won.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If we completely collapse into a police state, then they win.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		They won.
		There was not much street crime and terrorism in Nazi Germany.
		Another place, a more benign example, in the small principality of Monaco, just like the size of a small city.
		Monte Carlo and Monaco are the same thing, and it's just a teeny little place.
		And every street corner in this little principality, there's a closed-circuit television monitor.
		Every street corner.
		And all those are fed back to a police headquarters, monitoring headquarters.
		And there's a bank of television monitors, and the police there monitor every street corner 24 hours a day.
		Ain't no crime in Monaco.
		Well, I want that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I went to Super Bowl last year.
unidentified		And they took those pictures?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They scanned every face that moved through the aisle.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Doesn't it make you feel spooky?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It did.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Violated Big Brother.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I got home and that news was breaking and I said, wow.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		I said, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
		Be careful, you know, that your solution isn't worse than the problem.
		There's an old Chinese curse, and it says, may you live in interesting times.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is interesting.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't get much more interesting than that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This morning, I'm seeing headlines saying law enforcement authority is arresting 10 Middle Eastern men in three states Wednesday on charges of fraudulently obtaining licenses to transport hazardous materials.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It says they may have connections to the 19 hijackers of September.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Out here in Florida, at a little town called Belle Glade, it's in the interior of the state.
		It's a farming community where there's a lot of crop dusters.
		Atta and some of these other guys who died, who were flying the airplanes that flew under the trade towers and all that, they were very insistent and wanting to know all about crop dusting.
		Well, I want to tell you something, and this is again, when we talked earlier, and I talked to a producer earlier today or yesterday or whatever it was about coming on the show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's how yesterday is.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		I'm not coming, I'm not going to talk to you, God bless, but I'm not coming on this show as an advertising means or touting my books, right?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		That's not why I'm here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll do that for you.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		But a brand new book came out this June in hardcover.
		It's called Eden's Gate.
		Oh.
		And in it, I've got a terrorist attack with germ warfare over Washington using agricultural eggplants.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		I've got to stop.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		I'll tell you what, I've got to stop because I'm going to start writing love stories or something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's like you're predicting the future, aren't you?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's the future I don't want to predict.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		David, hold on.
		We're at the top camera.
		We'll be right back.
		David Hagbert, my guest, his book, Joshua's Hammer.
		Check it out on my website.
unidentified		It's a really good book to lead me.
		You're listening to Arc Bell somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 2001.
		Welcome to me in the middle of a dry day.
		Jimmy Rogers on the victor of high.
		I was dancing.
		baby Always wanting more.
		I'm feeling you're not in love.
		I'm feeling you're not in love.
		I can feel it coming in the air of the night.
		Hold up.
		And I've been waiting for this moment for my life.
		Hold up.
		Can I feel it coming in the air of the night?
		Oh Lord, oh Lord Well if you told me you were drowning You're listening to Arc Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an oncore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 2001.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest is David Hedberg.
		He wrote a prophetic novel, an incredible novel called Joshua's Hammer, all about the CIA, Osama bin Laden, and a nuclear weapon.
		That book is clear for you to pick up for a song, really, if you go to my website, simply go to tonight's guest info, click on the book cover there, it'll take you right over to Amazon.com where it's $7.19, the discounted price.
		I'm reading it myself, and it's a winner, believe me.
		If you like Flancy, you're going to just love Hagberg.
		We're talking about what's happened in New York and about Osama bin Laden and a whole lot of stuff.
		We'll get right back to it in a moment.
		right there.
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		Now let's go back to the night of September 26th, 2001 on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, to Florida in the middle of the night, and David Heinberg.
		David, if we go to Afghanistan or chase him into one of the Russian republics where he may be and put a bullet between bin Laden's eyes, will that, it'll slow it down.
		It won't stop it, will it?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		I think, as we were talking before the break, I think that it will fragment the hell out of the organization.
		There may be, instead of 10,000 terrorist organizations in the world, there may be 10,200.
		They'll each wander off into their own direction.
		Understand that this guy is so bright and he's such a sticking power.
		Remember the BCCI bank scandal of some years ago?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I just saw it roll on CNN today that he had something to do with bringing that bank down.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, not so much that brought it down.
		He brought it back up.
		The BCCI bank were making questionable loans and all that, and it was being funded by a lot of pretty wealthy Arab investors.
		And some of that money was being funneled into what would say questionable causes.
		And when the bank fell apart, the Arab gentleman, the financial backer, says, we need some sort of a financial institution to help continue funding some of these organizations.
		And the man they asked to put it all back together was none other than Osama bin Laden.
		So he's a very bright guy.
		If he falls, his organization is going to fragment, is going to splinter.
		And we're going to have to go, you were mentioning that some guys were arrested in Seattle or something for trying to get truckers' licenses to haul.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Several states, they say.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, worldwide, or law enforcement officers have arrested, what, pushing 400 people, and there's another 300 or 400 on the wanted list.
		And that's a pretty big dent in the majority of these organizations.
		There's supposedly 10,000, according to Amnesty International, 10,000 organizations.
		But there's probably less than 100 that are really, really super effective, like El-Qaeda, like Hamas.
		There's a number of PLO splinter organizations.
		These are the real dedicated fanatical people, willing to die.
		By the way, they get that from Japanese samurai philosophy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, of course.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		It differs fundamentally from Western philosophy.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		In the West, we say if something is worth doing, it's worth doing right.
unidentified		Yes.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		We all understand that.
		We all are familiar.
		Sure.
		Japanese Bushido, and now the Arabs have picked this up, the terrorists have picked it up, their philosophy is, if something is worth doing, it's worth dying for.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can we go put this bullet between his eyes legally?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We have some rules against assassination, right?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we do.
		And as a matter of fact, it was interesting to note that it wasn't Cheney, it might have been Rumsfield or somebody.
		One of them up there was talking with Bush.
		And it was Colin Paul.
		And he said, it was asked the same question.
		And he said, we are looking at those laws.
		I don't know if there's a law.
		I think it was an executive, presidential executive order, a direction to his, I mean, the CIA is an executive branch organization.
		And I think they're going to get on shaky grounds.
		I think, you know, thou shalt not kill.
		Well, does that mean we don't declare war on Germany or on Nazi Germany?
		I mean, at what point do we keep treating other sheep?
		Well, running out of cheeks are the problem.
		And if it's illegal, then in my novels, the guy would go and do it anyway.
		And when he got finished, they might put him in jail or slap his hand or something or whatever.
		They wouldn't find him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In your novel, at one point, a CIA agent, in a meeting with Bin Laden that he later pays for, is handed a 12-digit number that represents a nuclear device that was in Russia.
		Or a Russian Republic.
		Now, the obvious message from bin Laden back to the CIA was, hey guys, I've got one.
		In today's world, we hear an awful lot of things about lax Russian Security for their weapons.
		We hear that some weapons may already have left some of the Russian republics and may be already in the hands of somebody like bin Laden.
		Is that possible?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely possible.
		You asked earlier in the show about, or maybe it was earlier when we were talking about doing research, and I've been doing this for maybe 30 or 40 years.
		Along the line, I read a magazine, a weekly magazine called Jane's Defense Weekly.
		Sure.
		Anybody who's involved in the business knows this.
		And they've talked about a year ago about bin Laden offering $30 million to somebody to a Russian depot, weapons depot, I think, in maybe even been Tajikistan where I talk about my book.
		And yes, in fact, my editor, who's also a writer and a good friend of mine, has written a book that will be published fairly soon called The Nuclear Yard Sale at the End of History or something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Nuclear Yard Sale at the End of History?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		You're right.
		All these Russian breakaway republics, they've left a lot of nuclear weapons, and some of them are guarded in tin shacks with locks that are broken that don't work and nobody's around.
		And just go in there and pick it up at your peril, radioactive material, and take it home with you.
		He posits that there used to be one or two nuclear states, now there's a whole bunch.
		I mean, Brazil has probably got nukes, Israel, Pakistan, and India.
		The list is pretty big now.
		And the means to deliver them.
		I was doing a book not so long ago where I've got the North Koreans who are starving to death.
		The North Koreans have a nuclear weapon and a three-stage mission to deliver it.
		And my publisher called said, David, nobody would buy it.
		A week later, the North Koreans popped off a three-stage missile right over Japan.
		The missile was big enough that they could have put a small object in low Earth orbit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good Lord.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and this is a country that's starting to death, but by God, they've got money for their nuclear weapons.
		And Pakistan openly has told the world, now Pakistan is our Pell's, which I'm skeptical to tell them.
		Pakistan openly told the entire world that once we get a nuclear weapon, they have them now, it will be an Islamic weapon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, can there be any question that somebody who would do what just happened in New York would not even hesitate to light fuse on a nuke, if he could?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yes and no.
		Now we come into an even more difficult question of perception and philosophy.
		65 years ago or so, the United States was the only country ever to drop nuclear weapons on another country.
		It was a country we had declared war upon, and they had killed a lot of our people and all that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We were facing a very costly invasion.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And we are still, 65 years later, being vilified for that act.
		So people who are countries or people who own nuclear weapons, that in itself is usually good enough to allow them to sit at the head of the table.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, this is for a sane person.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		I know.
		The question is, we were talking earlier, is he sane or insane?
		Tough question to answer.
		He would do more by using a nuclear weapon as a bargaining ship than he would by lighting the thing off into a big city somewhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You would think that.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Whether he is rational enough to understand this.
		He's smart enough to understand it.
		I don't know whether he's rational enough or whether he's dropped into a depth of some sort of believing in his own self-aggrandizement.
		But I want to throw one more thing at you, Art, to think about.
		And so something else.
		I wish you had finished this book because I hate telling you some of this stuff.
		But what happens if we've got Osama bin Laden, this motivated, who finds out, who discovers that he's dying?
unidentified		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		One last hurrah, one last judge.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've got not a thing to worry about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, I have come to that part of the book, actually.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Okay, good.
unidentified		All right, right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The cancer, right?
unidentified		Yeah.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		And right now, since he's been walking with a can lately, I think that was in Jane's or some one of the publications I read that they were thinking there were maybe kidney problems, could be cancer.
		Nobody knows yet.
		But he's not walking as sprightly as he once upon a time was, not too long ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if he really only wants us dead, then that's a pretty good way to begin the party.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it sure is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it is really possible that he may already have or be about to get any time a nuclear weapon.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, he sure gives me.
		It's not for lack of trying, and he may already have it, and this could be a percussion.
		I don't want to scare the hell out of people, and I think the United States, we're doing the kinds of things that we need to do.
		There was a, excuse me, von Klauswitz, the big German war philosopher there was a Chinese philosopher who studied war.
		His name was Sun Tzu, TSU's last name, and he said, the guy was quite bright, and Von Klaus was probably studied his writing.
		He said, know your enemy, know yourself, and you'll always win.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hope that real life turns out the way your books do, but I'm a little concerned.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		So am I. I'm very concerned.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would never, I just never would have imagined, short of reading a novel like yours, that this kind of thing really could happen.
		The pictures of the planes going into the buildings, it was totally surreal.
		It was like you were watching something, Armageddon or something.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Like watching something out of somebody's novel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, some crazed fiction writer's weird imagination told another friend, I can't make this stuff up fast enough.
		I mean, The real world is faster.
		When the wall came down, the Berlin Wall came down.
		My books were all mostly early books were about the Cold War and Russia, the Evil Empire, the United States, what I call we have our Superman complex, which is truth, justice, and the American way.
		And I really believe that.
		I believe that the United States should be benevolent policemen, but that's another big, long, long thing.
		When the wall came down, I had many friends call and write and say, well, what are you going to do that the wall is down?
		You've got no enemy.
		I said, oh, no, contrary.
		We have enemies all over the place now.
		We're going to have a lot more.
		I said, this is, if there's a devil's playground, this is a novelist era, a thriller novel, thriller writer's era.
		Just the things that it just beggars the imagination.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Isn't it possible that the success, the incredible success of this attack is going to embolden others?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		And it depends upon our rapid response, our decisive response against this.
		Down in Florida, we don't call them cockroaches, we call them palmetto bugs to make it so that the tourists don't get too upset.
		If you see a palmetto bug, don't just scare it away.
		You kill it right now, otherwise it's going to go elsewhere and multiply and it's going to come back.
		And that's what we need to do.
		We need to stomp out these cockroaches, if you will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right away.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Right away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right soon.
		While we're sending incredible amounts of force overseas right now, stationing them around Afghanistan, no doubt, as best we can, got the planes, you know, all the best we have, and we're calling up the reserves, and we're getting this massive, massive force ready for something.
		And the American people are probably going to expect something rather spectacular.
		Is that going to be in the picture?
		Are we going to turn those camps to dust?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, it's not going to be quite as easy.
		I always want to be able to give you these real neat, tidy answers like I have in my books.
		First of all, the Brits, the British government, fought in Afghanistan from about 1820 to maybe 1920, somewhere in that era.
		And there were massacres and stuff, and they left a tale between their legs.
		The Russians, these are tough, battle-hardened soldiers who had no mercy.
		These guys were tough.
		They went in for 10 years, a modern army, and got chewed up by a little ragtag band.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, most of them got 100,000, I guess.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yes, if we go into a ground war in Afghanistan, we will get chewed up.
		One Afghani farmer, when they had that air raid, the Northern Alliance popped a couple of bombs into the airport at Kabul.
		He looked and somebody said, well, it's the Americans attacking, and he said, well, it won't make any difference.
		We have nothing to lose.
		We have nothing, so if they bomb, and somebody in the Defense Department says, we're going to bomb Afghanistan up to the Stone Age.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Up to the Stone Age.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, up to the Stone Age.
		No, we need to go after Bin Laden personally and his camps and his followers.
		Unfortunately, part of that, which is why I think Pakistan has kind of jumped in the fray to help up, a lot of those training camps are in Pakistan.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, are they?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
		They're across the border.
		Who do you think are in these Afghani refugees are right streaming across the border from Afghanistan to Pakistan, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		That's where these camps, that's where these Al-Qaeda training camps are, right smack dab in the middle of the refugee camps.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		First hiding places.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, it really looked like something big was going to occur pretty fast, but in the last 24 hours or so, there have been statements from the administration that nothing has happened yet because we have, I'm quoting here, a lack of credible targets.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, that doesn't sound very good to me.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, if I were going to conduct the war, and I'm not, but if I were going to conduct the war, I don't think I would tell my general, I'd tell my public, my people, that I'm working on this, guys, something will happen.
		But I'm not going to tell you that it's going to happen tomorrow, it's going to happen the next day.
		I mean, this isn't going to be like when we bombed Baghdad with CNN, you know, live in color on TV.
		We've got to stop the war, but we're not going to have a commercial, that kind of thing.
		It's going to be quite different.
		I'm watching, just like everybody else, with my mouth wide open and watching.
		This is just the most fascinating thing to happen.
		We've never had quite a war like this before.
		Remember when we first got, I don't know if you're old enough, but you remember when we first got into Vietnam before anybody in this country even knew about Vietnam, which is in the early 60s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was in Vietnam.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
		Well, I guess you do know about Vietnam.
		We were winning the war.
		We were winning the war.
		If it was being allowed to fight, we were terrorizing the VC out there in the bush, and we were winning that way.
		Once we stopped fighting that way, once we started fighting a European war of attrition, we lost.
		The Americans didn't have the will to keep going with that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, your will is sopped away pretty quickly when you have a president like Johnson.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have a lot of anger, kind of anger.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		I have.
		I had for years and years lots and lots of shame.
		It was just burning.
		And see, I can get my aggressions out by writing book scenarios and having the good guys win, and maybe even evil, stupid presidents or stupid military commanders get their comeuppance at the end.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, as prophetic as it's been, you probably ought to take up golf.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm just finishing a novel now, as it turns out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, hold on.
		We'll be right back.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
		Joshua Zammer is the book we're talking about.
		David Heidberg is my guest.
		He knows about Osama bin Laden.
		He knows about the CIA.
		It's a fascinating book.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell's Summer in Time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 2001.
		Travel the world and the sea.
		Everybody is looking for something.
		Some of them want to use you.
		Some of them want to get used by you.
		Some of them want to abuse you.
		Some of them want to be abused.
		Sweet dreams are made of hate.
		Who am I to disagree?
		Travel the world and the seven seas.
		Everybody is...
		Oh, please allow.
		You can't even play live easy.
		Get us out of the past.
		And all your sorrows.
		If the future won't last.
		It will soon be over tomorrow.
		I don't ask the words.
		I only want to go.
		And you know it don't come easy.
		And it's what both minds keep throwing.
		Premier Radio Networks presents Ark Bell somewhere in time.
		Tonight's program originally aired September 26, 2001.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you like thrillers, you're going to love Joshua's Hammer.
		I'm telling you, I'm reading it now, and that's why David Hagberg is here tonight, because it's an absolutely, incredibly well-done book.
		You're going to love it.
		Go to my website.
		In fact, I'm going to give you a number of reasons to go to my website right now.
		Number one is, I mentioned this earlier.
		I got a photograph of the sun taken earlier today on the website because the sun is really having at it right now.
		I've never seen so many sunspots in my life.
		The satellite about a million miles out from Earth takes a daily image of the sun, and I was so struck by today's image, the image up there right now, that I asked Keith to put it up under what's new, and you'll see it under what's new.
		Today's sun image.
		You have never seen the sun go as berserk as it is right now.
		The numbers surpass what they said was the peak of the sunspot cycle for cycle number 23.
		So something's going on with the sun.
		If you want to see what it looks like right now without having to actually look at it, you can on my website.
		Number two, Tom Clancy's remarks, allegedly made by Tom Clancy that I read a few days ago.
		That's up on the website now.
		Number three, tonight's guest info contains a picture of the front of Joshua's hammer.
		And if you'll just click on that, it will take you to Amazon.com where you can get it for a song.
		Boy, I'll tell you, those people are going to go belly up selling.
		But in the meantime, it's a great bargain for you.
		Maybe I shouldn't say that.
		Maybe they won't.
		I don't know.
		I don't know how they can discount books the way they do.
		This is a fascinating book.
		You're going to absolutely love it.
		Rarely do I ever make this kind of recommendation for a book.
		But, I mean, if you're a Clancy lover, this is just well, Dean Kuntz said of this author, if you're looking for thrillers with international intrigue, Hagberg is a major find, and he sure is.
		You're going to love this.
		All right, all of that said, one more item.
		Keith is putting it up right now.
		Tomorrow night, I am going to bring Major Ed Dames on.
		He's a remote viewer, as you know, technical remote viewer.
		And we've got a link to his website right now.
		If you want to see some really frightening information, you're going to want to take a look at the link.
		Just go to the website for guest info tomorrow night and look at Ed Dames' website, Major Ed Dames, and look at what he has said about what he sees about what's going on with Osama bin Laden and this whole thing.
		Pretty frightening stuff.
		I debated whether we should even air it, but we are going to tomorrow night.
		If you want a sneak peek at what I'm talking about, it, along with everything else I've mentioned, is on my website at artbell.com right now.
unidentified		Artbell Now let's go back to the night of September 26th, 2001 on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
unidentified		Art Bell Well, where was I?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think I was saying, David, that you probably ought to take up golf or something.
		It really must be unnerving.
		I mean, just one after another after another, to write what almost appears to be prophecy.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, sometimes it is very weird.
		As you used the word surreal earlier tonight, it is surreal.
		And it's, I hate to say it's not surprising, but I've been, as we talked about earlier, too, I've been reading about this stuff for so long, the Foreign Affairs Journal, just magazines and newspapers, New York Times, the James Defense Weekly.
		And it doesn't take very long, it doesn't take a genius, I'm anything but, which is proof in the pudding, it doesn't take a genius to see trends.
		Now, I see things maybe a little differently than, let's say, somebody in government, somebody with their button, their finger on a military button.
		I see things through the eyes of a storyteller, a novelist.
		I want to tell you a story.
		I want you to put your feet up, grab a glass of beer, glass of wine, or whatever, and suspend your disbelief and come along with me for a few hours.
		There's good guys, there's bad guys, and the good guys will always win.
		The only difference between my books and what the other books is that I'm using real-world situations, the real McCoy out there.
		And so what, if you've got a thousand monkeys in a room with a thousand typewriters, sooner or later, a given time, they'll write the Encyclopedia Britannica.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, but they rarely will do it twice in a row.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, rarely.
		Let me read something very, very quickly.
		It's a list.
		Jihad, by the way, is a holy war.
		World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders, Islamic Change Movement, Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, Armed Islamic Movement, Committee for the Defense of Legitimate Rights, Islamic Army for the Liberation of Holy Places, it goes on a popular Arab and Islamic conference.
		These are just a few, and this list is like a book long, of organizations that all hate, absolutely hate the West.
		We're the Satans.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me tell you something, David.
		Last night, I've been in open lines since this occurred pretty much, but last night something happened.
		I began getting calls, David, last night from people who I guess you would have to call them pacifists or actually haters of America.
		And they don't want anything else done.
		A lot of them say if we go after them, it's just going to be worse.
		They're going to hit us even harder.
		There's fear out there, serious fear.
		Listen to this.
		I'll read you just a small part of three emails I got today.
		Mr. Bell, America is an evil nation that continually shakes its fist at God.
		Foremost, the slaughter and butchery of innocent babies every day.
		This is a heinous crime, which the media will not address.
		It is a moral evil and evil that the morally degenerate cannot address.
		The hottest places in hell reserved for those in time of moral crisis who remain neutral.
		America not only deserves what happened in New York, but it deserves more.
		God will use infidels and general crazies to punish us more and more.
		The attack on America is nonsense.
		It is no more than America's foreign policy chickens coming home to roost and so forth.
		Or this, I will cut right to the chase.
		It's not our war.
		I get so tired of hearing you and other radio personalities referring to the attacks on the World Trade Center as attack on America.
		It ain't so.
		The Arabs attacked the World Trade Center because they felt they could kill a lot of Jews there.
		The real frustrating thing now is how you and the rest of the media have spread this notion that America was attacked when nothing could be further from the truth.
		That kind of thing, David.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		I wasn't going to kill a bunch of Jews.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		I think I would have dropped a couple of airliners downtown Tel Aviv.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, absolutely.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		or i hate to say it you know sort of tongue-in-cheek downtown miami beach but there's a lot of that out there right now and it's growing david as a There was, what, 80 different nationalities.
unidentified		That's right.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		I don't know how to answer that question.
		I'm not making fun, you know, God help me, I'm not making fun of anybody's religion.
		I'm not making fun of Islam.
		I'm not making fun of Zoroasterism.
		I'm not making fun of snake handlers in eastern Tennessee.
		None of that.
		I have my own beliefs, and they're mine.
		But as soon as you begin to talk about killing innocent people, it's like somebody who's against abortion.
		I don't want to get into that subject, but somebody who's against abortion because it's murder then goes and kills abortion clinic workers.
		I'm having a lot of trouble with that.
		Okay, so maybe it's not war, and maybe it's just, and probably not, it's just fanatics who wiped out the World Trade Center.
		And it's more, I don't think it's so much killing people as it was, or hitting a symbol of the United States.
		Golden Gate Bridge, Statue of Liberty, World Trade Towers, the Capitol Building.
		These are all places.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		White House.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		A White House, yeah.
		Okay, what do we do?
		Turn our cheek and say we deserve that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Some say so.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Does that mean Jeffrey Dahmer, remember this crazy guy who was killing people and his cannibalism and everything else in Milwaukee?
unidentified		Yes.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		He's a bad guy, right?
unidentified		Yes.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Would it have justified going and, let's say, brutally murdering his mother?
unidentified		No.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't think so.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		And it's the logic, the one does not follow the other.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that is the line, if there is one, between us.
		I mean, that's a very important line.
		We don't target civilians.
		They do that.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've got some calls, and I hope you're up for it.
unidentified		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's see what's out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air with David Hagberg.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hey, how you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir.
unidentified		Hey, Dave, I've got a question for you.
		Go ahead.
		I'm a Special Forces member.
		I'm out of first group, and I get flash calls all the time.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, sir.
unidentified		Unfortunately, six weeks ago, I had a bad jump, and I'm getting repaired on my knee, and I didn't wait to get into this fight.
		Personally, I'm trying to figure out how you get all this information because our flash news, such as Lib Baden being sick right now or possibly having a disease, it's like you're a storyteller, not storytelling, but a fortune teller of what's going on in the world.
		Are you connected with the agency at all?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, I am, and I'm not.
		I'm connected with some people who are CIA who give me the tone and flavor of what's going on.
		That's one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you're obviously connected.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		You read that.
		And number two, I read all the available literature.
		You understand, in our free society, you won't learn how to make a nuclear weapon.
		Just go to the library and look it up.
		They're going to show you how to do it.
		So I take what I can get out of real-world news services sources like James Defense Weekly talking with CIA people or ex-CIA people.
		And right down the road from me, about 10 miles away, is the SEAL UDT Museum.
		And I hang out there a lot, talk with all these.
		I have some know some people who were SEALs.
		And Bill Terrell's son is a SEAL, lives just south of you, or was a SEAL.
		And so all I do is get the flavor.
		The rest, honest to God, it's as easy as I make it up.
		But I make it up.
		It's fiction.
		I make it up based on real-world happenings.
		And if I were in a position of, let's say, command, then this is the things I would be saying and doing.
		And sometimes it's correct.
		Sometimes it's not so correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		That guy, the last guy of the color, my hat's off to man.
		These guys, they're like firemen.
		They put their butts on the line.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's it.
		With David Hagberg.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Yes.
		Hi.
		From Iowa.
		Okay.
		Just a note before we get into this, the sunspots are caused by electromagnetism, which could be a collective emotion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway.
unidentified		From, okay.
		All the emotion that's going on in Earth right now.
		It can cause major changes.
		Okay.
		David, Iraq must have the bomb, or they would not have had the balls to attack America.
		Afghanistan, they're trying to lure us there so we could lose.
		But the deal is it's all coming out of Iraq when it comes right down to it.
		Why do you think he gets upset when we go near it?
		Why do you think he wants us out of Saudi Arabia?
		Why do you think Iran says, hey, we're neutral?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		You know, you're exactly right.
		And I think it's like if there's United States of the Arab world, I guess that you're talking about that.
		And this is all so interrelated.
		When Pakistan developed a nuclear weapon, they said once we have a nuclear weapon, it'll be an Islamic bomb.
		And everybody over there is helping everybody else.
		Now, on the flip side, we help England, we help Canada, we are helping Mexico.
		We've got our enclave there.
		They have their enclave over there.
		But notice, nobody's declared, nobody's, I want to say nobody's really declared all-out war for us.
		As mad as Saddam Hussein hates us, he is rabid to sell his oil to us.
		They still want the Almighty, they hate us, and they still want the Almighty dollar.
		There are more American $100 bills in circulation outside the United States than inside the United States.
		In Moscow, for instance, there are two 747s.
		Honest to God, two 747s, packed to the rafters with American $100 bills, go each day to Moscow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My, my.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		That's because they don't have checks and paper money is worthless.
		I mean, you know, paper trails, electronic transfers, everything is a cash society, and $100 bill rules.
		That's the leading instrument everywhere in the world.
		It's the same in Saudi Arabia, any of those places, Iraq, you name it.
		If you want to get something done, you can give them all the Riyadhs or whatever the currency is of that country.
		Give them an American $100 bill, and you're there.
		You've got it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But David, that's something you can understand.
		Americans can understand that.
		They still want money.
		They want to sell their oil.
		That's good.
		That's probably not somebody who's going to use an atomic weapon.
		What scares the hell out of us about Osama is he's already shown us he just wants us dead, and that's hard to deal with.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		He wants us out of the Middle East, period.
		If we get out of the Middle East, then he says he will end the jihad.
		I don't know if I believe that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I believe that almost every president for a long, long time now has said the United States would go to war to protect the oil flow from the Middle East.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I'm sure that is still true today.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		Can I throw a clinker?
		Can I throw like you throw a bone into a pack of dogs, the one that yelps, the one that gets hit?
		If every single crude oil carrier in the world, every single one in the world today, were used just to supply Japan with oil, they would have to make three trips a year just to Japan.
unidentified		Wow.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Take that way you want to take it.
		That's my novelist brain going off in left field.
		Your caller, if she's still online, she's absolutely right.
		The motion that is rising up around the world is, I don't know about sunspots, but it's an energy, a collective energy, if you will, that gets things done.
		One ways are moved, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One way or the other.
		This will get done.
		All right.
		East of the Rockies, you're on here with David Hagberg.
		Where are you, please?
unidentified		This is Charlie, K-O-I-F, Dallas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dallas, all right.
unidentified		David, did you know that one of Osama's brothers was a principal in George W. Bush's early oil company here in Texas?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I wouldn't be a bit surprised.
		As a matter of fact, he has a brother who lives just maybe 50 miles south in the, or 100 miles south in Orlando.
		I mean, Lauderdale.
		He had another one up at maybe Orlando.
		He had a couple of them.
		But understand that the bin Laden family, the papa, had 50 kids, or has 50 kids.
		One of them is Bin Laden, Osama.
		And the Bin Laden family, the dad and everybody, has disowned, publicly, very publicly disowned Osama as the black sheep, if you will.
		No, I did not know specifically that there was a bin Laden.
unidentified		This brother was later killed in a plane crash.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		Also, were you aware of my novelist and Also, were you aware that the SAS, the British Special Air Service, has already been active in Afghanistan?
		I would have no doubt.
		The British have had a long, long history in Afghanistan.
		It's like we had, what, four or five years in NAM or whatever it was.
		The Brits had almost a century in Afghanistan.
		They left with their tails between their legs, and I think they would like to resolve some old wounds and some oldish.
		No, that doesn't surprise me.
		No, a lot of the, a lot of, and SAS, by the way, is probably one of the most elite special forces in the world.
		These guys are good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Welcome to the Rockies.
		You're on here with David Hagberg.
		Hi, I'm Mark Bell.
unidentified		Hi, Ert.
unidentified		This is Jeff from Washington State.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yeah, for your color from First Group, the Special Forces, Diopresso Libert, and I hope you jump to see it again.
		David, this is a great book.
		It's making the rounds with chemical officers in the Corps, the Army.
		It's chilling, truly plausible, and achievable as today's situation is.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Wow, high prize from a pro.
unidentified		Yeah, well, and this is something I wanted to ask people.
		Art, I was really disturbed by yesterday's show and people just not hiding their head in the sand.
		People don't know who is your civil defense, your organizer, your lead.
		Where are your shelters?
		What do you have for personal defense?
		I would urge people to do what the, I believe it was Mr. Thompson said, do what the Red Cross says for normal civil disasters.
		Get yourself prepared.
		Support your National Guard.
		That's your home defense.
		And David, I'd like to ask you, in your own, in Art as well, in your own estimation, what do you think our national defense is like for this kind of a threat, a nuclear, biological, or chemical?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		You're meaning our civil defense.
		That home defense is pretty crappy.
		As it turns out, my wife is the director of the Red Cross for this coast, a couple of counties in this part of Florida.
		And just about a year ago, all the Red Cross chapters across the country were sent a pretty extensive bullet, I don't know, about 20 pages long, how to deal with the after effects of a chemical, biological, or nuclear event.
		And when the Red Cross, which is a pretty, I mean, they're a pretty zippy organization, when the military goes in, the Red Cross goes in with them.
		But when you have an organization that's so big and maybe even hidebound by rules to sit up and take notice about this possibility, then you know we're taking it seriously.
		Other than that, our civil defense is absolutely flappable.
		There is no civil defense.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I thought it was a golden moment when they grounded all of the crock dusters.
		I thought, boy, you know, our government doesn't do this kind of thing, not in my recent memory.
		And if they have really grounded these, then they really think there's a problem, or maybe.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yep, yep, yep, yep.
		But there's an upside of this.
		I mean, looking at the glass, half full rather than half empty.
		Isn't it really neat, gentlemen, that we are living in a society where we actually, I mean, the biggest thing we do is lock our car door in a parking lot of the supermarket.
		Isn't it, maybe it's time for the wake-up call or something, but in my way of thinking, that's pretty damn neat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
		Hold on.
		Are you good to go one more?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		If I got about five minutes, I'm going to go make a cup of coffee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go make cup coffee.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest is David Hagberg.
		His book is Joshua's Hammer and is a good book.
		Get it through my website.
unidentified		You're listening to Arkville Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 2001.
		Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 2001.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm Dr. Dina Dow.
unidentified		Don't bother right.
		The value that you gain In the inner of the kind The value that you gain She loves you, give you time for you.
		As she walks up your arm and holds.
		And before I tell you, look which direction completely.
		While the blue tie wall never market thought, but the hidden there she leads you to Bell Bucky, my fight, to buck away for another.
		The year of the cow The year of the
		cow You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time, tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 2001.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, most people who are reading a book they love don't get the opportunity to pick up the phone and talk to the author of the book they're reading and love.
		I've got that opportunity.
		I'm doing that tonight.
		David Hagberg is my guest.
		His book is Joshua's Hammer.
		And it's a killer.
		Believe me, it's a killer.
		You can obtain it by going to my website, artbell.com, and then just clicking on the book cover under tonight's guest info.
		will take you to amazon dot com where you can't resist the price Oh, my God.
		Impact, I've got a little information on that for David.
		We'll get to that in a moment.
		In the meantime, your calls and your questions are welcome.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		Looking for the truth?
		You'll find it on Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
		What's happening out there?
		I sense it.
		People sense it.
		They call the program.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		There's something going on.
unidentified		I can't put my finger on it, but I feel it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about you?
unidentified		It is not our imagination, and the best minds of our time are telling us, in no uncertain terms, that we are living the greatest number of crises ever to face humankind.
		And they're telling us, George, that we've got to act or not much else is going to make any difference.
		You're listening to Arc Bell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 2001.
		Music All right, once again, David Hagberg.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		David, do you ever wonder how Amazon.com manages to slash the prices they do on books?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, first of all, I think you pay shipping, but it's volume.
		I mean, what have they got?
		A half a million books in their inventory, something like that?
		Sure.
		I don't know if they actually warehouse a thing or if they're drop shipped from publishers, but it is definitely a volume.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know they rank books well into the hundreds of thousands.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And your book, when we began the program tonight, was ranked a very respectable 1,294.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Your book at this moment is this hour has come to 374.
unidentified		who so i know that if you're wondering other people are the uh...
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		the And it's been back and forth between that and, let's say, 5,000.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		So that's fantastic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So if you were wondering whether people were up at this hour.
unidentified		You know, I meant to say this, too.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		I don't know what's wrong with me, or maybe there isn't anything wrong with me, but I'm getting addicted to this late-night radio.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		In fact, John Denver had a song some years ago, Late Night Radio, Take It Everywhere I Go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, he did.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		I'm lonely.
unidentified		He did.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		But that telescope, I'm an amateur astronomy buff.
		I want that telescope, but I want that slimming product.
		I'm not a shill.
		I'm not trying to help you sell products, although if I do, fine.
		But I tell you what, I'm getting addicted, except for the fact that I'm not how to sleep anymore.
		I'm wide awake.
		And if I start to babble, just tell me to shut up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, here come the callers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air with David Hagberg.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi, my name's Ian.
		I'm from Lexington, Kentucky.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Ian.
unidentified		I just came across some information tonight, and I wanted to let you and David know and get you all's input on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		Are you out in front of computers?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I am.
unidentified		Okay, go to like Microsoft Word or Works, any of your word processing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is this the 99 thing?
unidentified		No, actually it's not.
unidentified		It's a Q33 Space.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, Q33.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm familiar with it, but go ahead and tell everybody about it.
unidentified		Yeah, well, you put in capital Q as in quiet 33 Space New York.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which was the ID, I identified one of the planes, right?
unidentified		That's right.
unidentified		Okay.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Q3 base, New York?
unidentified		Q33 Space, New York.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Space, New York.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		You type that in.
unidentified		You go to about a 48 font.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		And then you go to your style of your font where you can take Times Roman numeral.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		Go on down to the first wingding.
unidentified		It's those funny symbols.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the wingding font, yeah.
unidentified		Right.
		And you change the Q33 New York to that, and it shows a pretty startling few images from there.
		Well, the Q represents an airplane.
		The 33 represents two buildings.
		N represents a skull and crossbones.
		And the Y represents a star of David.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And there's been a very great deal of symbolism surrounding this whole thing, David.
		And a lot of it is not an accident.
		Is there anything symbolic about September 11th other than 911?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		No, and 1-1 and then 1-9 is the area country code, I think, for Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia or something like that.
		No, but we are in the last, I don't know, 10 years or so, maybe the whole world, but especially the United States, has come to an era of spirituality, let's say.
		We've got drive-by shootings.
		Now we've got airplanes crashing.
		You see the McDonald's get blown away.
		You've got road rage.
		And people are becoming more spiritual.
		And when they do, spirituality takes all sorts of forms.
		Church attendance is way up.
		Divorce rate is way down.
		Crime rates are down.
		And numerology and these sorts of things are on the rise because people are trying to find meaning.
		Yeah, I guess that's the word I wanted.
		Meaning.
		They're trying to find what the hell does this all mean?
		I explore it in my writing.
		The writing is like the Sphinx couch.
		I can work out all these things, whether it be aggressions.
		I was an abused child.
		Stepfather beat the hell out of me.
		And so I write these violent books that tend to be violent, and yet I'm one of the most, I'm just a very non-violent person in real life.
		A friend of mine was the county sheriff is the same way.
		He was beat up as a kid, and he's now the county sheriff.
		The guy weighs about 7,000 pounds.
		I mean, he's a big guy.
		And he's the sheriff.
		He's a non-violent man.
		One rule in our house is no hitting.
		And so that's my reaction.
		And for a lot of people right now in this country, it's spirituality in a lot of different forms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		I find it fascinating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So do I. Wildcard line, you're on the air with David Hackbert.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi.
		This is Nancy from Honolulu, Hawaii.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Nancy.
unidentified		Hi.
		First part, I'd like to tell you something I think would help with your back if you would get a think tank.
		It's where you put 100 pounds of salt water in it and you float.
		And there's a book in the library called The Book of Flotation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I thought swimming would be good anyways.
unidentified		And all the NFL players are using this, and I really think it would help you.
		Okay, thank you, dear.
		And I really, I have a few things to say because I've been trying to get you on the phone ever since this happened.
		And I really feel in my heart that the people that died, we have to look at it in a different way, that heaven, Daniel Brinkley has been there.
		Heaven is a beautiful place, and they're probably better off than us if we're going to have war.
		But every religion we have on this planet, even I talked to a Muslim on the bus here before this all happened, every religion teaches forgiveness and love.
		Jesus said, forgive us for they know not what they do.
		And I think that if you would have Dr. Michio Kaku on your program and have him ask him if that's a way we can go to the next level.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I do have a guest now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you like to ask him a question?
unidentified		Well, just one more thing.
		They found out that Roosevelt knew when Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked, and 60 Minutes, just two weeks ago, they're bringing Kissinger up on things for assassinating the guy in Chile.
		We do not know what our government has done behind our backs.
		And I wanted to ask your guest if he feels that if we all, like 15 minutes before your program or 15 minutes, I mean 15 seconds after your program, if we would all pray for world peace and say, let this happen for the good of all, if he thinks that would help.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, there you go.
		It couldn't hurt.
		But on the other hand, that brushes close to some of the calls I've had that think that any response we'll make will either make it worse or get us attacked even more.
		In my mind, and I guess I'm just a war hawk, I don't know, if we don't do anything, if we just leave this alone, then, you know, just as with Germany, appeasement is only going to get you one thing, and that's going to be more of what just happened.
		What do you think, David?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		I tell you what, Art, you just, we're all saying a mouthful, all skirting around, we're all skirting around some issue that I think fundamentally is, is there evil on earth?
		Yes, there is evil on earth.
		How do we deal with evil?
		Do we turn our back on it?
		No, we have to deal with it religiously.
		Yes, let's pray, but we also need to deal with it in a secular manner as well.
		If I have cancer, I am going to pray to my Maker to please help me through this.
		Now, if that means I'm going to die and go to heaven, well, that's the way it goes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that probably in chemotherapy and radiation.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		But I'm also going to be heading down to my nearest oncology center and saying, hey, guys, heaven is wonderful, but I ain't done yet.
		I'd like a little longer run at this.
		And I think there is a God, and there undoubtedly is, he has given me the free will to make these kind of choices, to fight evil head on.
		And, you know, I don't know if it's a semantic issue or whatever.
		Pray.
		By God, pray, because it can't hurt.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with David Hagberg.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hello.
		Yes, Art.
		This is Brooke calling from Vermont.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Brooke.
unidentified		It's always a pleasure and privilege to speak with you and the Onya program.
		Thank you.
		I have some information for you and David.
		Regarding symbolism, I believe September 11th is Muhammad's birthday.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		It could very well be, yes.
unidentified		I believe I heard that on CNN.
		Also, according to Monday's Boston Globe, and my cousin lives in Boston, so I'm very conscious and aware of what's been going on in Boston.
		The Bin Laden family is very entrenched in Boston and has been for about 20 years.
		One of Bin Laden's brothers went to Harvard and is a graduate of Harvard and is actually a scholarship in his name at Harvard.
		And he's a very profound contributor to Harvard.
		And he actually has 51 brothers that live in Boston and one sister.
		And they were all taken from Boston by private plane a few days ago back to Saudi Arabia.
		They also have six to eight properties in Boston.
		And when this catastrophe occurred, since many people in Boston are aware of where they live, there was immense police protection at the cost of the taxpayers' expense in Boston to protect them and their properties.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I guess that's not a surprise.
		A lot of family there.
		David, isn't it probable that there are a lot of sleepers here?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, absolutely.
		Like some of the people who did what they did were sleepers.
		There's bunches more.
		There's no doubt about it.
		Does not mean they're going to go active right now or anytime soon, but they are definitely here.
		And short of having a police state, it's going to be a while before we dig them out, if we ever do dig them out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if we actually begin to move militarily, well, we're moving now, but I mean actually go into Afghanistan or one of the Russian republics after Osama bin Laden, based on intel that we get, if we don't get him first time out, isn't it probable that he's going to activate some more sleepers here and come back at us?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		You know, here's a call.
		If I were writing, if I was outlining a novel, I could make a case for yes and make just as equally a good case for no.
		Remember Muramar Qaddafi, the leader of Libya?
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sure.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		He was raising all sorts of hell with us.
		At some point, we bombed, we dropped some bombs and stuff in Tripoli.
		In fact, my son was in the Navy at the time, and they issued somebody on one of the ships came up with the silk screening and did a t-shirt as was the US-2 Libya-Zero.
		We had shot down a couple of the airplanes.
		Nobody's heard much from Muir Markadoffi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed not.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		So the guy, you know, the guy got the message and he shut up.
		He quieted down.
		So would Osama do the same?
		I could probably make a better case or no.
		He'll really be rabid.
		But I have a feeling that a lot of the countries, a lot of Arab countries are disavowing him and are starting to cut off funds, the money trail.
		country still today who recognizes Afghanistan, let's say, is Pakistan.
		And I think, yes, he may reawaken sleepers.
		He may do lots of things.
		But I think he's slowly but surely going to be restricted, choked off from...
		Yeah, well, how do you hide one of your commercials says buy gold?
		And I agree with that.
		Gold or diamonds, you know, these are the things.
		They're valuable wherever you go.
		But he's got to get this money.
		There is a method of getting money from overseas to the United States or any other country where you avoid all tax laws, you avoid Western Union, you avoid all banks, you avoid everything else.
		And it's perfectly secret and yet out in the open.
		And you can get lots of money across.
		How?
		Well, it's real easy.
		What they have, I'm trying to think what they're called, made brokers or something like that.
		Let's say I'm in Karachi, Pakistan, and I want to send $1,000 to my uncle in New York City.
		I will go to the broker in Karachi and say, here's $1,000.
		I want you to send that to my uncle in New York.
		So the broker puts $1,000 in his pocket.
		He calls a pal of his who's a broker, a similar broker in New York, and says, I get $1,000 from a guy here.
		I want you to go deliver this $1,000 in cash to this man at this address.
		And the broker over there says, yes, thank you, and he does it.
		The guy in Karachi has just earned $1,000 plus a commission.
		The guy in New York is just out $1,000 in his pocket.
		But he knows that sooner or later, somebody in New York will want to send $1,000 to, say, let's somebody in Saudi Arabia.
		And so he'll make his money.
		And it evens out over the long run.
		And no tax laws, no nothing.
		It's a real easy system.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that's pervasive?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		Big time.
		Big time.
		Billions of dollars, or billions, but certainly hundreds of millions cross hands every year.
		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		All right.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with David Hagberg.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		Very far west of the Rockies, a little Hawaii.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Can I ask a question before you ask a question?
unidentified		Certainly.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		What time is it in Honolulu right now?
unidentified		It's 10.26 in the evening.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Wow, it's 4.26 here in Florida.
		Okay, I was wondering what the time difference was.
		I'm sorry, but go ahead, sir.
unidentified		Yes, Art, I've listened to your show for years, KHBH, 8.30 a.m. in Honolulu here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		My question has to do with the threat of the sleepers, the terrorists that are still in this country.
		I was particularly interested in a couple of comments that were made.
		You remember the flight instructor, or the person who had the flight instructing school that trained Atta?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		He said he didn't remember too much about him, but one thing he remembered about him was he disliked him.
		He didn't know why, but he just had an inner feeling that he disliked the man.
		Also, James Woods apparently was on a Boston flight and noticed that there were four Arab passengers in first class.
		And he said that they were very strange, didn't say anything, were not friendly, didn't speak to anyone, didn't accept anything from the stewardess, just stared straight ahead.
		I think that if there are terrorists, sleepers in this country with those kinds of evil intentions, that this is how they're going to show up.
		People are going to innately dislike them, and they're going to appear.
		I mean, you can't have those kind of intentions and warmly react to a puppy, for instance.
		So I think if people are alert to this kind of thing, we can ferret out some of these people that just do not fit.
		My question is, when you do this, how can you turn these leads over to authorities without it just degenerating into sort of amateur racial profiling?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		David?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		I don't think you can, not in our society.
		Let's say, I don't particularly care for Jerry Spring.
		I don't know the man, but I don't care for that style of journalism, whatever you want to call it.
		Does not make him a suspect, just makes him different from me.
		I've seen people in airplanes who sit there rigidly, white-knuckles, staring straight ahead, and they're just scared of flying.
		That's all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, David, there's a lot of that going on right now.
		As a matter of fact, some people have been taken off flights at the insistence of either the pilot or passengers who refuse to fly with them.
		So there's a lot of that kind of stuff going on.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think so.
		I think your caller's notion is well intended.
		That flight school, by the way, is in Vero Beach, Florida, which is where I am right now.
		And they use these guys use the same mail service that I use.
		And I probably bumped into them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		David, hold tight for a moment.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		And by the way, the international line is open.
		I'll tell you about that in a moment.
		I'm Art Bell.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
		Stay right there.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 2001.
		My Lord, I really want to see you.
		I really want to see you.
		I really want to see you, Lord.
		It takes so long, my Lord.
		I really want to know you.
		I really want to go with you.
		I really want to show you, Lord.
		I really want to see you, Lord.
		I really want to see you, Lord.
		Riders on the storm, Riders on the storm.
		Into this house we're born into this world we're thrown like a dog without a bone.
		You're out of love.
		Riders on the storm.
		There's a killer on the road.
		His brain is squirming like a toad.
		J.K. Larger.
		You're listening to Arc Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight's an oncore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 26, 2001.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you really want to cross some time zones with us and date lines, then wherever you are in the world, we're happy to pay for the call.
		And it's very easy.
		You go to my website, artbell.com, and simply go to the page that lists the international phone codes, dial that, and then dial the 800 number.
		And no matter where you are in the world, Europe, Asia, South America, wherever, we'll pay for the call.
		Or, barring that, you can call the AT ⁇ T operator, love to hear from you elsewhere in the world.
		So let's open up that line right now.
		I'll watch it like a hawk.
		The number is 800-893-0903.
		Once again, that's 800-893-0903.
		Let's hear from you.
unidentified		Now let's go back to the night of September 26, 2001 on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		You take a look at Joshua's Hammer, and if you don't think this is a prophetic book written way before the event, then I don't know.
		It's pretty frightening stuff.
		It's compelling.
		It's a page turner.
		It's recommended from me to you personally because I'm reading it right now and it's awesome.
		You can go to the guest section on my website and just click on Joshua's Hammer, the book cover.
		It'll take you over to Amazon.com where you'll get a great buy on a great book, about 530-some odd pages long.
		That's a big, long book, isn't it?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it is.
		My wife is not going to be able to live with me until next week now with all these high words of praise.
		I'm going to have such a swelled head that it would be impossible to be around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you, just as a matter of curiosity, when you're writing a book like this, obviously there's a lot of research and all the rest of it, but from where do you pluck the concept?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you know, that's a tough one.
		What happens is, I've taught at the local library, I've taught what's called a master's class in novel writing because I've written about 65 books.
		And part of it is how to come up with ideas.
		And the not-so-easy answer is if you learn how books are put together and you learn how to outline books and you understand how to read books like a writer reads a book, and so you can say, yes, I could have done that book, or no, that book was beyond me, not only the research, but the writing.
		Pretty soon, after just a couple years or so, even less than that, of doing that sort of thing, you begin to look at the entire world through the eyes of a novelist or a writer.
		So when you read a newspaper, when you talk to a radio talk show host or a guest, you're constantly, some portion in the back of your brain is constantly evaluating everything you hear and see and read, evaluating it as a possible story idea.
		And so I'm reading in the paper some years ago about Iran trying to buy Aquilo-class submarines.
		I thought, aha, there's a book.
		I've been reading a lot about Osama bin Laden over a number of years.
		I don't know why.
		I'm fascinated by people.
		And he's just an ultimately fascinating person.
		And I've sort of watched his career, if you want to call it a career develop, and killing and bombing and all that.
		And so I started to write books about him.
		And so how do you come up with an idea?
		You think like a novelist and you look at the world like I'm a storyteller.
		It's the same way with like 50,000 years ago, the hunters all went out and one of them came back and instead of going to sleep, he painted paintings, you know, cave drawings to tell the story.
		Well, it's the same kind of thing.
		You know, after a day of seeing all this insanity going on in the world, I turn around and filter it through my own bizarre, strange imagination, and I come up with scenarios that have happy endings.
		Stephen King said that modern novelists in America at least are, we're all biblical.
		We're all writing morality plays, that there's good and evil in the world, and good will win over evil.
		And I believe that strongly.
		It wasn't an easy answer.
		I'm sorry, Art, because a lot of these questions, you're asking some very good questions that don't have easy answers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, that was 65 books, huh?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, 65 or 66 books.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a lot of books.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		It is a lot of books.
		I look at a bookcase in the living room.
		We've got about 4,000 or 5,000 books in this house.
		But I look at the one bookcase in the living room.
		It's all my stuff.
		And they're in about 13 different countries and audio tapes and all that.
		And I look and I say, I don't remember writing half those books.
		You know, it sounds like I'm tooting my own horn and patting myself on the back and breaking my arm in the process.
		But I'm pretty pleased with what I've done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This one's a winner.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I sure would love to, I'd really love to have an autographed version of this.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		You got it.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		When we're done here, let's get your address.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you bet.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		You got one coming, my friend.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wonderful.
		All right, here we go.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with David Hagberg.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Oh, yes, David, I'm in Santa Barbara, California, and I remember you mentioning a few hours ago a connection to Santa Barbara, California, and also you mentioned a town, I think it was Bowling Lawn or Bowling Green on the East Coast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So your question is, what is a connection?
unidentified		Yes, sir.
unidentified		That is correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, he's in Santa Barbara.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		So there's, I'm not touting anybody else's book, yes I am, but there's a book, a non-fiction book by Joseph Bodansky.
		It's called Bin Laden, The Man Who Declared War in America.
		This came out maybe three, four years ago.
		And in it, he talks about the bin Laden organization connection.
		And he had, it's one of my primary research sources.
		He didn't have a lot of information, but he just said, I think it was Garden City, New Jersey, Santa Barbara, California, and maybe one or two other cities that were bin Laden banking, where Bin Laden money, not the Bin Laden family, but Osama bin Laden, where he had some connections.
		But they're so tenuous and so well done that we have been able to seize or freeze very little of his actual operating funds until now.
		So it's not information that I went out to Santa Barbara, let's say, and sat down with a bank manager and research.
		It's something that, and Bdansky is a very well-respected historian.
		All right, source of it, anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's skip a few time zones here and a dayline and say on the international line you're on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, please?
unidentified		From Australia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From what part of Australia?
unidentified		In Queensland, the East Coast and Gold Coast, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's try David's question and ask you what time and day it is there.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		It's actually, let me look at the clock, 6.40 in the evening.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		12 hours out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, but on what day?
unidentified		It's actually Thursday evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		There you are.
		Go right ahead.
unidentified		Well, I just wanted to say thanks very much for the opportunity of being able to call in from overseas for free, first of all.
		And I'm a regular listener over the internet, so I had to disconnect the call in.
		But I'm just curious in regards, rumors that I heard in regards to the Russian black market and the talk, rumors I've heard on the net about low-yield suitcase-sized, I saw on the Amazon.com site there, nuclear devices that may have become available when the Russian government was in a little bit of a state of flux and wondering if there's any proof to those sorts of claims.
		You're talking about sleepers and things.
		It's quite a horrific potential.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's very horrific.
		Both the Russians and the Americans, neither one wants to admit it, but they both, both countries, we both admitted sort of offhandedly that we each built about 100.
		And they're called, I'm trying to think what they're called, hardened target demolition devices.
		They're 80 pounds maybe, you know, maybe about 30 kilogram.
		Fit in a small suitcase.
		One guy can carry them.
		And they're meant to take bridges, dams, submarine pens, missile silos.
		You can sneak up and put them in.
		And they weren't covered under any of the SALT treaties.
		Ours are made by Pantech down and put together by Pantex down in Texas.
		And these are, I'm trying to think it was a Russian Minister of Defense before Putin said, admitted publicly, and this was in the New York Times, this is what, maybe four or five years ago, admitted that they had lost 100 of these things.
		They had no idea where they were.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		100?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		100 they had lost.
		Now later, some government official within days, a Russian government official, said, no, it was nothing more than a counting administration error.
		And my eyebrows sort of went up around the back of my neck.
		And I said, yeah, okay, Pal.
		Yes, these weapons are out there floating around.
		And Jane's Defense Weekly suggested that Bin Laden has been trying to buy one.
		The ANDI is up to 30 million U.S. now.
		And considering the state of the Russian economy and the breakaway republic's economies, if he hasn't got one, he's got a pretty fair shot at getting one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So sleep well down there.
unidentified		I shall.
		I was actually, well, unfortunately, I don't know.
		Just timely, I actually clicked on the news late night after coming back from work, and it was happening live in front of my eyes.
		It was just truly horrific to see.
		My heart goes out to all you guys over there.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		You set an excellent pace.
unidentified		I was commenting to my friends that it was so good to see, even though people were obviously running for their lives, panic-stricken, that the camaraderie and the love that was shown, the critical mass that was achieved in the people of New York, that our men were running by the rain.
unidentified		Yeah, gave reason for your country not to have to declare martial law or anything drastic like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not even cool.
unidentified		Good to you people over there.
unidentified		I hope you guys get this one sorted.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, my friend.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		I wish I could write like one of his countrymen, Neville Schutz, who wrote some years ago, fabulous writer.
		On the beach, In the Wet.
		Wrote a number of books that were just fabulous.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've read that book I don't know how many times.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		You should try In the Wet.
		It's about Australia and Outback.
		They have two seasons.
		It's either in the dry or in the wet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll give it a shot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard Line, you're on the air with David Hagberg.
unidentified		Hi.
		Yes, Art and David.
		This is John from Goodwin, Minnesota.
		I agree with everyone, Art, that's called in so far, both the Peace Knicks and the Warriors, actually.
		But none of them have really been, I think, balanced or comprehensive.
		The terrorists are like a crazy man in a public square with a gun, you know, who's already killed somebody.
		Put it down, or, you know, we've got to shoot you.
		I think we should also go after, besides Osama, Saddam Hussein, his palaces, his military, and then give Sudan an ultimatum.
		You know, let us end to take part your biological and chemical weapons factories or your dead meat as well.
		On the other hand, I mean, Streeberg's the key and John Hoag's the interpreter of nostrils, I think, are right.
		I think we have to do a better job of sharing the wealth and spilling the secrets on the extraterrestrials or we're going to eventually lose this war.
		I mean, the danger is Osama is swimming in an ocean of a sect called Wahhabism, which is the official religion of Saudi Arabia, and which began a couple centuries ago in the Arabian Peninsula, massacring people, and generally they've been killing their moderate Opponents ever since.
		But yet, of course, there's a lot of peaceful people, too.
		And 80% of the Imams in America are Wahhabis.
		And I think you could get a good debate going here with maybe some of them and talk about this.
		I was listening to NPR earlier today.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, we're limited on time, but I appreciate the call.
		I do want to pluck from your conversation, though, one question.
		That is, we did not go after Saddam Hussein.
		We could have.
		A decision was made not to.
		If we are forced to pursue Iraq for one reason or another in this present pursuit of terrorists, and it seems logical that we would, are we going to go in and get him this time?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Who are you asking me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think, well, are we or should we?
		Should we, yes.
		Are we?
		I don't know.
		Again, as we were talking about earlier, if we're going to do this right, we're going to have to be willing to get our hands dirty.
		Are we willing as a people to get our hands dirty?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it sounds like a yes.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it is a yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the other hand, we seem to have a policy of keeping Saddam there, but just not too strong.
		In other words, keep knocking him down, but we had our reasons.
		We wanted to keep him there.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		I don't know what our reasons were unless it was a buffer against, the origin was a buffer against Iran, and I don't think that's valid anymore.
		The whole question out there, the whole business, the British got into it with them, and it's the whole business of oil and everything else.
		It's a tangled, nasty mess that I explore in my books, but my stuff is just fiction.
		It's going to take some Roosevelt, some Churchill or Churchillian, somebody of that stature to figure this all out.
		And some of your callers, the peace snakes, if you want to call them that, are right.
		If we go on and bomb the hell out of these people, it's going to create all sorts of other problems.
		We're going to be trading one set of problems for another, but I guess I'd rather have the other set of problems than the one we do now.
		We turn our cheek on this one, then we are wide open.
		I don't know what's going to happen next, but it will.
		There will be a next.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I agree.
		East of the Rockies, you are now on the air with David Hagberg.
		Hi.
unidentified		Yes, good morning, Or.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, sir.
unidentified		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Richmond.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richmond, Virginia, okay.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Good morning, David.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		How are you this morning?
unidentified		Oh, a little tired.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I get it.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Now I know what time you are, anyway.
unidentified		Yes.
		As the caller mentioned earlier, and I heard it mentioned Ian, not getting into numerology again, but about 9-11 being the date of the original Muhammad, the founder of the Muslim religion's birthday, I wanted to get your opinion on a belief that I have.
		I believe that bin Laden enjoyed the martyrdom bestowed upon him after Clinton's waste of all the missiles and money and manpower, so much so that he used this feigned self-suffering to create his own religion separate and apart from the Islamic faith.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		That's probably a pretty good point.
		I think it's a very good point.
		I think it's a continually developing sort of a belief system, and he gathers people around him who, I don't know if they're violent, but I think there are people who are at the end of their tether who say to themselves, what I'm doing right now seems to go nowhere.
		I need some sort of a cause, whatever it may be, and I need somebody, something to believe in.
		And Bin Laden seems to be spitting into the wind against a gigantic evil Satan.
		And yeah, I think you are exactly.
		You are right on with it.
		But I don't think it's a done deal yet.
		I think it's a constantly evolving, a constantly changing.
		And he'll fit his religious notions with whatever is happening at the moment, whatever suits him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So a new religion, sort of.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's sort of a new religion.
		I mean, there's bajillions of those around, and the man is definitely charismatic.
		And so he's got a lot of followers.
		There are people who have deified him.
		I mean, he's just about God on earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we're way short on time, but let me squeeze one more in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with David Hagbert.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, this is Jim from Boise.io.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Jim.
unidentified		A couple of quick things.
		Number one, truth serum.
		We need to get some truth serum in all of these people.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Wouldn't that be lovely?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Tell the truth.
unidentified		Well, there's no reason not to.
		If we're in a state of war, not really, but technically, there are no constitutional rights for these people.
		There's all kinds of truth serums.
		And the same with the people that are insurgents that are going into Afghanistan, they could have an injector of true serum right there with their atropine, for that matter, or just give it to the translators and have the translators utilize it all.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		I think that might have only limited success in that the same mechanism might occur when somebody defeats a lie detector test.
		They believe so strongly, and let's say what they're doing, that they don't consider, just assuming they kill a woman and child, an American tourist, they don't believe that's necessarily a bad thing.
		They believe it's a very just thing.
		So when you give them a true service, you're going to have to be very careful what sort of questions you ask.
		Did you do something?
		Absolutely.
		I didn't do anything bad.
unidentified		Well, you'd have to keep it on an operational logistic basis of names, places, dates, things of that nature, I'm sure.
unidentified		And then, is there any reason from what you were saying about bin Laden being such a high target, couldn't we go in there With an entourage in order to appease the people of the country of the Red Cross and say UNICEF.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		They're kicking us out and they're kicking the Red Cross and the UN and all those guys.
		They're kicking them all out.
		They've arrested them.
		They're stealing the food.
		No, it doesn't work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		David, we're out of time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, it has been such a pleasure having you.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		Despite the fact it's O Dark 30 here, it has been a great pleasure.
		I could get addicted to late night radio.
		And you've been a wonderful host.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the title of your new book?
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		A brand new book.
		Joshua Sammer, the brand new one out is also called Eden's Gate.
		And that's sort of a scary book, too, about germ warfare over Washington, D.C. Oh, brother.
		Yeah, brother.
		I know.
		I said I'm going to start writing.
		The book I'm working on right now is called The 23rd Psalm is a cross between the Exorcist and the Manchurian candidate.
		And that should get people going.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, you stay on the line.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		I will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I'll be right back to you.
		There you go, folks.
		That is David Hengbert.
		Check out his book, Joshua's Henberg.
david hagberg ▲ ● ▼		I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm reading it now.

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