April 18, 2001 - Art Bell
01:24:32
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unidentified
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Touch the something inside that we need so much. | |
| The sight of the touch, or the scent of the sand, or the strength of an oak when you're used deep in the ground, the wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again, or to fly to the sun without burning a wing, | ||
| to lie in the meadow and hear the grass sing, all these things in our memories hoar the East Wind Wanna | ||
| take a ride? | ||
| Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255. | ||
| East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033. | ||
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| This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell. | ||
| Probably one of the most respected, academically respected men in America, Professor John Mack, Harvard's John Mack, will be here for two hours tonight, beginning in just a couple of minutes. | ||
| He's not just academically admired, but he's admired in the UFO community, he's admired in the paranormal community, and being admired in all of those spheres at the same time can have its problems. | ||
| professor john mack coming up in a moment uh... | ||
| Johnny Mack, M.D., is professor of psychiatry, Harvard Medical School at the Cambridge Health Alliance. | ||
| He is a graduate of the Boston Psychoanalytic Society and Institute. | ||
| He is board certified in child and adult psychoanalysis with over 40 years of clinical psychiatric education and experience. | ||
| Dr. Mack has continued to teach trainees in psychiatry throughout his career. | ||
| He has applied the insights of depth of psychology to address the roots of the Cold War, the global ecological crisis, I was just talking about that, and ethno-nationalism and other collective phenomena that inform our understanding of human identity. | ||
| In 1969, he founded the Department of Psychiatry at the Cambridge Hospital. | ||
| In 1983, co-founded the Center for Psychology and Social Change. | ||
| Dr. Mack founded the program for extraordinary experience research, peer, it's called, in 93 to explore varieties of anomalous experience. | ||
| Dr. Mack is the author and or co-author of 10 books, including A Prince of Our Disorder, a Pulitzer Prize-winning biography of T.E. Lawrence, Lawrence of Arabia, right? | ||
| Abduction and Nightmares and Human Conflict. | ||
| His latest book, Passport to the Cosmos, Human Transformation and Alien Encounters, was published in November of 99, released in a trade paperback edition in November of 2000. | ||
| He's written more than 150 scholarly articles. | ||
| Oh, my. | ||
| What blew me away absolutely about his appearance tonight was reading the jacket of his book. | ||
| As you know, or he may not know, we've been dealing with this issue of people seeing things that they've never seen before in ever-growing, exponentially growing numbers. | ||
| These shadow people from the corner of the eye and peripheral vision. | ||
| Now people seeing them full on. | ||
| Entities that people have never seen before. | ||
| Ghosts that people have never seen before. | ||
| All of these things as though a veil or something were lifting. | ||
| And you read a little bit of the jacket of his book. | ||
| My God. | ||
| It's just, it's not a setup, folks. | ||
| Let me read a little bit from the jacket. | ||
| In his groundbreaking follow-up to the best-selling abduction Pulitzer Prize, winner John E. Mack MD powerfully demonstrates how the alien abduction phenomena calls for a revolutionary new way of examining the nature of reality and our place in the cosmos. | ||
| Harvard professor John Mack stunned the world when he first published Abduction, the astonishing results of his extensive research involving clients who reported that they'd had encounters with alien life forms in Passport to the Cosmos. | ||
| Mack, who has done additional research with abductees in the U.S. and around the world, provocatively asserts that this phenomenon is part of a new era in human consciousness, a time in which we must be willing to embrace the idea that alien visitation is real on some level. | ||
| And he goes on to talk about people who are seeing things that they've not seen before, a change in human consciousness. | ||
| So it's kind of right down the alley of where we've been lately. | ||
| Dr. Mack, welcome. | ||
| It's nice to be on your show again, Art. | ||
| Good to have you. | ||
| At the beginning, I said that you are revered in a number of communities, certainly the academic community. | ||
| Revered and reviled, I think. | ||
| Well, that's right. | ||
| But that's because of being revered in ufology, being revered in the paranormal community. | ||
| All of these don't mix real well, do they? | ||
| Well, it depends where you're positioned, I suppose. | ||
| I mean, there are people that just leave the whole academic world because it puts certain kinds of demands that they don't want to have to deal with. | ||
| And I completely understand that. | ||
| I've stayed within it because I think that sooner or later the mainstream of the culture needs to wake up as well as the people that are already awake. | ||
| But it's a conservative part of our culture, and I think properly so. | ||
| I mean, I think that academia stands for certain criteria of excellence in science, of evidence, and I think that's quite legitimate. | ||
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unidentified
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well professor uh... | |
| your academic uh... | ||
| credentials in a big crisis for you were challenged by harvard and uh... | ||
| i talked to i i said it few minutes ago on the telephone uh... | ||
| just before we got on the air that I had spoken to your lawyer. | ||
| And he said, what lawyer? | ||
| And I said, well, the man who helped you or represented you when you were in that crisis. | ||
| And his name is. | ||
| Oh, Danny Sheehan, you're talking about it. | ||
| Danny Sheehan, right. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| No, I mean, I was thinking about like now, you know, lawyer, this was a few years back that he and I worked together on that, on my case, as they say. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Well, when I spoke to Danny Sheehan about your case and that fight, he said, you know, I wanted, now maybe he was speaking only for himself, or maybe he was speaking for you, you can tell me, but he said, what I wanted was, in essence, a trial. | ||
| In other words, a full hearing where you bring all kinds of people forward to support your side of the argument. | ||
| And he said when they, Harvard, learned that that's what was coming, they decided they'd rather not do it. | ||
| And that's when everything backed away and got better. | ||
| Is that characterization in your estimation accurate? | ||
| And is it? | ||
| Let me step back because I think a lot of people that are listening to your program aren't familiar at all with what happened, what this trial thing that I went through is about. | ||
| When Abduction, my first book on this subject, was published in 1994, I had rather naively thought that I tried to make as careful documentation of 13 people that I had worked with quite intensively who had had these encounters. | ||
| And I basically said, you know, this may not fit our notions of reality, but these people are telling the truth. | ||
| There's nothing clinically that can, I know, that can account for this. | ||
| And there's some kind of visitation going on here. | ||
| And I set that forth, and I was quite excited. | ||
| I thought maybe in a sense that I thought this was very important and that it would be greeted with the same sort of great interest that I had had. | ||
| Well, I was rather surprised, literally surprised. | ||
| I probably shouldn't have been, but at the sort of avalanche of distress that this ran into. | ||
| I was greeted very well out here. | ||
| Yeah, but I mean, in my... | ||
| In the medical school. | ||
| And so the dean appointed a three-person committee to see if I had in some way transgressed academically or clinically or something of that sort. | ||
| And my work was investigated for 15 months. | ||
| Now, when one of the deans said to me, when this committee was formed, John, you wouldn't be in, this is a friend, and he said, you wouldn't be in trouble if you just said you'd found a new psychiatric syndrome of unexplained cause. | ||
| But when you said that this required, might require that we look at reality differently, that's what got me into trouble. | ||
| And so this went on for 15 months. | ||
| Danny Sheehan alerted me to the potential seriousness of the whole thing. | ||
| I mean, it's been sort of overblown that they were trying to get rid of me and all that. | ||
| I never had believed that. | ||
| I think what it was about was to try to, so the university could say that they were holding me to a certain standard. | ||
| Well, you were tenured anyway, weren't you? | ||
| Well, not in the sense of being, that Harvard's obligated to have an appointment that is without indeterminate duration, is how they call it. | ||
| It means that as long as somebody's at a hospital or clinical base is willing to support it one way or another, I have the appointment goes on. | ||
| Well, if they weren't trying to get rid of you, what are the other outcomes that could have been? | ||
| Oh, some sort of censure, I suppose, or some sort of turning it over to a medical board to look at whether I had done some wrongdoing in some way. | ||
| It could have been ugly in that way. | ||
| But with Danny Sheehan's great help and another lawyer here in Boston, we were able to show that I simply had accurately reported what I was hearing and what I was learning and what it implied. | ||
| And I had affidavits from many of the people that I'd worked with. | ||
| And we had a lot of witnesses that argued for me. | ||
| And basically we came to a kind of gentlemanly agreement that I should pursue the work, but following certain standards and involving more colleagues, which is something I thought was quite right. | ||
| In other words, I was asked to put together a multidisciplinary group within and also outside of Harvard to look at how do we study something that doesn't fit our notions of reality, what we call anomalous experiences. | ||
| So you mentioned Peer. | ||
| We've been doing that. | ||
| We had a two-day symposium, which was not Harvard-sponsored, but took place at the Harvard Divinity School, in which people from many different fields looked at this phenomenon and other anomalies. | ||
| And, well, what do we do if something doesn't lend itself easily to the, it doesn't reveal itself through the methods of science as we have known them and seems to fall into anthropology, philosophy, history of science, psychology, psychiatry, physics, many different fields. | ||
| What do you do with it? | ||
| I'm talking now about the so-called alien abduction Phenomenon. | ||
| And those colleagues that you've involved so far, how's it gone? | ||
| Have they come into it with open minds, and what's been the outcome of what they've learned? | ||
| It depends who you talk with. | ||
| I have my own perspective on this. | ||
| And there are, I know, still people that behind my back, whatever, and publicly, I suppose, sometimes too, although less so, will say, you know, I've gone off to deep end, or this is crazy, or it's not proven that the aliens are really physically here, therefore we don't have to pay attention to this, or something of that sort. | ||
| But by and large, I've seen a steady expansion through work of many people. | ||
| I mean, you've had, I think, Bud Hopkins and he's been on your show, right? | ||
| Oh, yes. | ||
| And Dave Jacobs and a number of other people who've really pioneered this field more than I have. | ||
| I'm sort of the heavy that's come in in a way, you know, Newton's statement of standing on the shoulders of giants. | ||
| You know, there have been people ahead of me that have made very important discoveries in this area, but I've been kind of the heavy who came in and said, hey, this is legitimate. | ||
| This is important. | ||
| This is real. | ||
| Professor, since you authored Abduction and all the time that has now passed, are you beginning to get any new ideas about the phenomena? | ||
| Is it beginning to evolve in your mind at all? | ||
| Oh, definitely. | ||
| This is what I find has happened. | ||
| In other words, what started out as can you prove that aliens are here or not, has become a much, much broader canvas in terms of what is our relationship to other entities in the universe? | ||
| Are we alone? | ||
| Is the only way we can find out whether we're alone or not, whether we can pick up bleeps on radio waves through laser beams coming? | ||
| Or can we expand our notions of what an entity might be or beings, the form beings might take in reaching us? | ||
| Can we expand that to include people who are identified mainly through the powerful experiences that they bring to people with some physical findings, but where the physical findings are not the predominant form of evidence? | ||
| So it's a much broader question. | ||
| And, you know, indigenous people and native peoples all over the world, I mean, I haven't been everywhere, but many, many people that I've talked with in other countries and Native Americans and Indians in South America, they don't regard this phenomenon as so exceptional because they have relationships with all kinds of beings that come from the other dimensions of reality and enter into our airspace, so to speak. | ||
| However, in this culture, we have ruled out virtually by steady reduction of consciousness, really, we have ruled out all other intelligence from the universe that is not a projection of the human brain. | ||
| Well, Christianity plays no small part either. | ||
| Well, I don't know where it comes from. | ||
| I mean, I wouldn't just blame the churches on this. | ||
| I'm not. | ||
| I'm just saying. | ||
| Science has its part. | ||
| The whole culture has collaborated in so reducing our notions of reality to the three-dimensional world that we don't even have the sensory apparatus anymore to perceive the existence of entities of this sort, which are perceived easily by indigenous people who haven't been so restricted by the culture. | ||
| Well, if I were to tell you that, and I just did at the beginning of the program, I'm having these thousands and thousands of emails about seeing entities, dark shadows that people are calling the shadow people, ghosts, people call them ghosts, people call them aliens, people call them almost everything, actually, even ghosts of animals. | ||
| But people are suddenly seeing more. | ||
| It's like a bleed through of the barriers that have been set up in this culture. | ||
| Because if you were to speak to a Native American medicine man about this, they'd say, well, what's the big deal? | ||
| I mean, we see these entities all the time. | ||
| It's as if the rind, you know, like an orange has a thick skin around it. | ||
| We have a kind of rind around us that has, so that this leaking through is alarming people. | ||
| And I but it's good. | ||
| It's a breakdown of this. | ||
| You know, I think it has to do in one way with the radical separation of church and state because religion has been so associated with tyranny, intellectual tyranny and dominance and control over the many centuries that what is good about religion, | ||
| the depth of understanding it can provide, the spiritual connection with a higher being or with a higher intelligence, that's all kind of been cut away. | ||
| I mean, we give lip service to a belief in God. | ||
| But I mean, the real experience of the divine, that has been lost. | ||
| So I think these aliens, whatever they are, one of the things that they seem to do is they break down for the people that encounter them this barrier between ourselves and the rest of the cosmos. | ||
| So I think that's what's happening to these people that are emailing you. | ||
| Do you have any idea why it's happening? | ||
| As you point out, the indigenous peoples aren't surprised at all. | ||
| And yes, I've spoken with them. | ||
| But why would the barrier be breaking down to people who are, oh, I don't know, busy in the office every day, leading everyday lives, not Native Americans, but modern Americans? | ||
| Hold that one. | ||
| We're at the bottom of the hour, Doctor. | ||
| My guest is Professor John Mack, Harvard's John Mack. | ||
| And we're talking about something I think incredibly important right now. | ||
| And that is why whatever it is that's going on right now is going on. | ||
| Why, exponentially, are we seeing more things suddenly? | ||
| I don't know that there's an answer to that at all. | ||
| At least, not one we haven't understand yet, but it is happening. | ||
|
unidentified
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I'm Art Bell. | |
| To recharge bells in the Kingdom of Nigh, from west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-6188-255, East of the Rockies, 1-800-8255-033. | ||
| First time callers may recharge at 17757271222, or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295. | ||
| To recharge on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903. | ||
| This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network. | ||
| Professor John Mack doesn't give a lot of interviews, so it's a rare opportunity to hear him. | ||
| I'm Art Bell and we'll be right back. | ||
| The End Once again, Professor John Mack. | ||
| Professor Mack, I think I left it here. | ||
| Yes, Indigenous Americans say, of course, we've been working with these beings and seeing them for years, forever. | ||
| Why, though, would the average American, tromping off to work, busy watching TV, and doing all the things that would probably take our consciousness somewhere else, suddenly begin to get glimpses of things that we don't normally see? | ||
| What's changing? | ||
| Well, I have two ways that I think about it. | ||
| I mean, I don't know the answer to that, but there's some things that sort of glare at us that seem to be related. | ||
| One is to do with what you mentioned earlier, the ecological crisis. | ||
| The Earth is in trouble, and the human species has so deposited its waste upon it without regard to the sustainable life of the Earth, that we are facing the potential extinction of the life forms, many life forms on the Earth, including ourselves. | ||
| And I might point out that we're facing this in the political sense. | ||
| The administration now seems to be intent upon deregulating so that businesses will not be hampered at the expense of the Earth. | ||
| And if this isn't reversed, then we're going to not have a planet to live on. | ||
| Now, this fact has not gone unnoticed, apparently, beyond the Earth. | ||
| In other words, it seems that the Earth has some importance in a larger network of being that extends beyond us. | ||
| Now, I never would have believed such a thing except from the work that I've done, but it seems like there is some kind of desperate outreach going on here from the cosmos to this species that seems to have no concern for the web of life and is only concerned with its own consumption. | ||
| And so it's trying to reach us, to awaken us to the catastrophic nature of the threat to the environment that this one species, namely us, is creating. | ||
| So that seems to be a big part of it. | ||
| Another part of it seems to have something to do with some sort of exchange program. | ||
| I don't know what to call it, but what Bud Hopkins and David Jacobs have pioneered and discovered about this hybrid program where some sort of at least one of these species and maybe more in some way are connecting with us to create a whole other set of beings, hybrids or whatever you want to call them. | ||
| Now, whether this is happening in our literal three-dimensional reality or in another dimension of reality, that's one of the most controversial subjects around us, how to think about it. | ||
| But that it's true and real is, I think, undeniable. | ||
| So there is some kind of mutual exchange program. | ||
| Perhaps what we're getting out of this is some change and awakening and opening of ourselves, expansion of who we are. | ||
| And what the beings may be getting is some sort of, this is from the cases, actual experience of another kind of embodiment of earthly, our type of love and affection and sensuality, which they seem to lack. | ||
| So there's some kind of interspecies connecting. | ||
| But to really discuss that, you have to get into the various different sorts of species that seem to be reaching us. | ||
| Now, a third area has to do with simply the matter of truth. | ||
| I mean, if you, it seems to be a principle of nature that if you suppress, I mean, Freud demonstrated this in his work, that if you suppress something, repress something of great importance psychologically or deny reality, it comes back. | ||
| It comes back to appear, it shows up. | ||
| So our Suppression of all life, all intelligence, everything that might, that people call spirit, all beings, all entities. | ||
| The denial of this has reached such an extent that it, in a sense, it's like a return of the repressed of the existence of other intelligence in the cosmos, what other peoples have known, and what this culture really knew until the last 300 years or so. | ||
| We appear to be in complete denial with regard to the state of the environment. | ||
| I note this administration has cut in half the amount of money that it wishes to devote to the study of alternative fuels while pursuing coal and oil avidly. | ||
| This is a catastrophe. | ||
| And I'm surprised, you know, because you speak about west of the Rockies, you know, and the Rockies and the mountain states, which are so conservative, you would think that people in those states would be particularly sensitive to the environment and to the life of the forests and the rivers and the fishing and the livestock. | ||
| I mean, you would think that they would be particularly alerted to the danger to the environment, although that seems to be a source of support for this kind of deregulation. | ||
| It's quite puzzling to me. | ||
| It's very puzzling and scary to me because you said the Earth is in trouble, and I guess the progression toward possible ecological disaster is pretty fast right now. | ||
| At least that's the way I read it. | ||
| Unchecked, I wonder how long you think we have to go until we get a serious wake-up. | ||
| Well, the late Dana Meadows, Danella Meadows, who was a great pioneer in awakening us to the limits of growth and beyond the limits, bestsellers that kind of like Rachel Carson's Silent Spring and those sort of pioneering books about the state of the ecology. | ||
| And she estimated, based on projected statistics, that she had worked out in terms of the sustainability of our lifestyle as we now are pursuing it, that we might have another 10 or 15 years to pursue. | ||
| It may collapse gradually. | ||
| I mean, for example, the price of fish has gone up like fourfold in the last couple of decades. | ||
| Well, that's because the supply of fish, healthy fish in the ocean is rapidly dwindling. | ||
| So then we're the lobsters and we're just feeling warmer, but that's all. | ||
| Yeah, I mean, at what point is there any space in there between awakening and death? | ||
| I mean, in terms of the heating up of the pot, do we wake up so we can get out of it, or do we just croak before we realize what we're doing to the earth? | ||
| Well, maybe that's what these other entities are, and that's why they're making more frequent appearances. | ||
| Maybe they're standing at the top of the pot and saying, hey, stupid, it's about to boil in there. | ||
| Well, I mean, the people that we work with, I mean, Bud Hopkins sometimes says, well, if they're all that concerned about the environment, why don't they do something about it? | ||
| Well, the only thing they can do about it is change consciousness to show us images, which they do regularly with people who have the encounters, show them images of what we're doing to the Earth, awaken the people's visceral, gut feeling about what's happening. | ||
| And a lot of the people that we work with at our program do become quite active on behalf of the Earth, very concerned about what we're doing. | ||
| So they do do something about it. | ||
| They do what you do, Art, which is to wake people up, even at 2 and 3 in the morning. | ||
| Yeah, even at 2 and 3 in the morning. | ||
| Doctor, since abduction, do you have any doubt now about the reality of what occurred to those people that you chronicled? | ||
| None whatsoever. | ||
| However, having said that, I do not necessarily believe that each person that's having an encounter or experiences being taken into a spaceship or whatever or having poked, probed, or also having powerful spiritual experiences or connection with the beings, all of this, I don't necessarily believe this is all happening in our three-dimensional physical reality. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| The fact that it is not provable to be all three-dimensional, or, you know, I'm not sure if we went up, for example, into the heavens and started to, you know, look inside, looking for spaceships, we'd find little aliens in there in our airspace or something. | ||
| I think we have to expand our whole... | ||
| Oh, very interesting. | ||
| And I think that's helpful in terms of our efforts to understand where these, where, that is in what dimension all of this is happening. | ||
| But the fact that we're having some kind of interdimensional connecting doesn't make it any less real. | ||
| In fact, it makes it more real in some ways because it's part of a larger reality. | ||
| What do you suppose would happen, Professor, if the metaphysical world and the scientific world all of a sudden got on the same page? | ||
| What kind of consequences would there be for society? | ||
| Well, that's exactly what's happening now. | ||
| I mean, in our neck of the woods, I mean, this multi-dimensional conference I was telling you about, we had philosophers and scientists getting together, and some of the people that I work with personally are in those fields, and they are very much feeding each other intellectually. | ||
| They are, I think the metaphysical dimension of this is being increasingly recognized. | ||
| In other words, how do we think about reality? | ||
| How do we know what we know? | ||
| What is the right way to decide whether somebody's telling the truth or not? | ||
| Because you can't set up an experiment, you know, that controlled experiment to see whether aliens are here or not. | ||
| You have to work with the people's experiences. | ||
| And so how do you decide who's an authentic truth-teller here and witness? | ||
| So this is what those are clinical and philosophical questions. | ||
| So that's we are collaborating very much with not only with physicists and psychologists, but with philosophers around just those questions. | ||
| But if the scientists verify the additional dimensions, and then metaphysically we begin to get in a good solid communication with beings from perhaps other dimensions, the social consequences, the religious consequences, would be you couldn't calculate them. | ||
| Well, you know, it's very interesting. | ||
| You mentioned the religious consequences. | ||
| Have you ever had Father Corrado Balducci on your program? | ||
| I have not, but I guess I ought to. | ||
| He's a Vatican prelate, still wears the cassock in good standing, a man in his mid-70s. | ||
| I had a privilege of meeting him a couple of years ago. | ||
| He's quite well known in the UFO community now. | ||
| And I heard him speak at San Marino in Italy and got to know him some. | ||
| And he's called, he was the head Vatican demonologist. | ||
| And although he's officially retired, the fact that he still says that obviously what he's saying is not counter to official Vatican policy. | ||
| So he's not that out of line. | ||
| And he says the church, Catholic Church, and he, he says, we have to take this very seriously, this so-called encounter or abduction phenomenon. | ||
| Why? | ||
| Because there are so many thousands of reliable witnesses. | ||
| But when he said that, there was a big stir, not perhaps quite as big, but or with a serious consequence, as you had in your life when you wrote your book. | ||
| I mean, the Vatican did ring a little bit when he made that statement. | ||
| But they didn't deny it. | ||
| No, they didn't deny it. | ||
| They did not. | ||
| And, you know, I don't know how the church works politically. | ||
| It may be as hard to understand as Harvard, you know, I don't know. | ||
| But, you know, what his relationship to the Vatican when he made those statements was, I don't know. | ||
| But, I mean, there are things if you say them and put them forth, you lose your standing in the church. | ||
| And he did not. | ||
| And he's quite frank about the fact that the church, when you have thousands of reliable witnesses, you've got to take it seriously. | ||
| And that's what he says, and he sticks to that. | ||
| Well, I guess we should talk a little bit again about Danny Sheehan. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Because he called me the other day and represented to me that he had represented you during the trouble at Harvard. | ||
| And he said, you know, we never got to what was going to be the fun part for me because I really wanted a trial. | ||
| I wanted a trial. | ||
| I wanted to bring witnesses forth. | ||
| I wanted to really do it up. | ||
| And they backed away from that. | ||
| And he said, so, Hayard, how about this idea? | ||
| Suppose we were to get three federal judges, and he claims he knows three retired federal judges, and a prosecutor, and a defender, and virtually have a trial with presentation of evidence and witness testimony and the whole thing. | ||
| Would that be a good idea? | ||
| And I said, oh, my God, of course it would be a good idea. | ||
| I'd love to do it. | ||
| And I guess he's run this by you. | ||
| Oh, yeah. | ||
| We've been talking about it. | ||
| How did it hit you? | ||
| What do you think? | ||
| Well, I think it depends how it's done. | ||
| I think it could be a terrific idea. | ||
| Danny has, Sheehan may know, he had a great deal to do with opening up our awareness around nuclear power, the Silkwood case, wounded knee, the whole Iran-Contra thing, you name it. | ||
| He's been on the forefront of just about every cutting-edge area of sort of social malpractice, in a sense, that has been going on in this country and been very effective. | ||
| And he has a group of investigative assistants that work with him that are probably better at getting the truth about something than anyone I know. | ||
| Well, what would you imagine the question to be tried? | ||
| What's going on? | ||
| I personally don't think there should be a good guy and a bad guy in this. | ||
| I don't think it should become some adversarial thing between the prosecutors and the government cover up. | ||
| I don't think it's about that. | ||
| I think it's not about anybody doing anything bad. | ||
| I think there are people in the scientific community that ought to be questioned. | ||
| There are people in government. | ||
| There are people in the religious community. | ||
| There are people in psychology, psychiatry. | ||
| In other words, my idea of this would be to get the truth, in other words, to get to the bottom of what is really, and of course the UFO community is crucial here. | ||
| What is really going on? | ||
| What do we know? | ||
| How can we find out? | ||
| It wouldn't be like this, some bad guys covering things up. | ||
| See, I think that's the wrong approach. | ||
| I think that, I mean, I support full disclosure, and I support people like Steve and Greer that are trying to get as much knowledge through the government as possible. | ||
| I think those are very good things to do. | ||
| I just think that the ring of trial tribunal should not convey that what he's trying to do is to put some person or some group on trial. | ||
| No, no, no. | ||
| But rather have an open forum that would create a way of bringing witnesses forward to get at the real facts of this whole UFO encounter for balance and for consideration of the federal judges, there would have to be one side which would be presenting the, I suppose, skeptical side, huh? | ||
| Sure, exactly. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| So you'd have people that would say, no, there's nothing going on here, and this is all a figment of people's imagination, and then you'd have the evidence presented, and it could be quite extraordinary. | ||
| What would you bring to such an event? | ||
| What would who bring? | ||
| You. | ||
| Me personally. | ||
| If you were asked to either testify personally as an expert or to bring witnesses, would you be able to do that? | ||
| Yeah, I would take not just the arguments or the case, so to speak, as I tend to make it in my books or in talking here, but I would try to select certain individuals that have had the encounters and have them present their experiences and why they took it so seriously and how it affected their lives and so that the fact that we're dealing with plausible, | ||
| by and large, healthy, normal people from all parts of the society, that this would get across. | ||
| And so I would be the person, one of the people that would support the truth of the encounter, the encounter, the facts of the encounters that are going on. | ||
| Just curious, and I suppose you'd be biased, but how would you imagine the result of such a confrontation, and it would be aired either on radio or television or somewhere? | ||
| We don't know yet. | ||
| How would you imagine it would end up? | ||
| Oh, I have no idea. | ||
| I mean, I think it would be enlightening. | ||
| I mean, I think it would... | ||
| The people, it would be too dangerous for the people to know. | ||
| Too dangerous for the people. | ||
| Well, we'll pick up on that when we get back. | ||
| It's the top of the hour right now. | ||
| Professor John Mack is here. | ||
| I'm Art Bell. | ||
| What do you think? | ||
| A big trial? | ||
| Open to everybody? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hear the drums echoing tonight. | |
| She hears only whispers of some quiet conversation. | ||
| Wanna take a ride? | ||
| Well, call our bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255. | ||
| East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033. | ||
| First time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222. | ||
| The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295. | ||
| And to recharge on the Toll-free International line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903. | ||
| This is Coast to Coast AM with our Bell on the Premier Radio Network. | ||
| Good morning, all. | ||
| Professor John Mack from Harvard is my guest. | ||
| He'll be here for the remainder of this hour, so we've got to go right to work. | ||
| Stay right where you are. | ||
| Well, I didn't solicit that sound, but I'll take it as the return. | ||
| So we're back, Canada, with Professor Mack. | ||
| Professor Mack, we were talking about Americans and whether they would accept the concept of a radical change. | ||
| Scientists all the time are saying, well, we thought we knew, but now we think we're hearing that all the time. | ||
| So it could change, and metaphysics and science could come together, and there could be a whole new reality. | ||
| But, you know, it's a lot like the Brookings Institution study of what would happen if we were confronted suddenly with the presence of aliens and what would happen from a societal point of view. | ||
| It could be very, very disturbing, or at least that's what they concluded then. | ||
| Has that changed? | ||
| It depends how you ask the questions. | ||
| I mean, if you ask people, do they want to know? | ||
| Do they wish to have facts covered up that are known by scientists or by government officials? | ||
| People are much more likely to say, we want to know. | ||
| If you say, you know, would you be alarmed if aliens showed up here, there, and the other place, they might be alarmed. | ||
| I mean, first of all, as far as I can tell, the aliens with all the, and not every encounter is a pleasant one. | ||
| People have very traumatic encounters sometimes for all kinds of reasons. | ||
| However, everything I've ever seen, heard, whatever, people I've worked with, there is not as much harm in the entire experience I have with this encounter phenomenon as we do to each other in a single day. | ||
| So there is not any suggestion that these are the films like Independence Day notwithstanding, there is not a shred of evidence that these beings wish to do us harm. | ||
| The worst that could be said is what Dave Jacobs said, which is that They are changing our nature in some way, that they are cohabitating with us in such a way that we are being transformed. | ||
| But as far as I could tell, that could only be for the better. | ||
| Well, Dr. Jacobs did, however, allow for the fact they may not be friendly. | ||
| That's what I'm saying. | ||
| In other words, that they may not be friendly. | ||
| But I think his position is rather extreme in that respect. | ||
| And I don't say whether they're good guys or bad guys. | ||
| I don't see it that way. | ||
| Some of the experiences are traumatic, and some are transformative in a positive way. | ||
| It depends a lot on the consciousness of the person having the experience. | ||
| In any event, the fact is that something's going on here, and it's not malevolent in the way we are when we make war upon each other or upon the environment. | ||
| And I think people, if prepared appropriately, or just simply told this is what's going on, they kind of know it anyway, you know. | ||
| And if it was presented in a truthful, honest, balanced way, I think the people are much, much more ready for this than the armists would have us think. | ||
| Back to the trial concept for a second. | ||
| Three retired federal judges, they'd be a tough sell. | ||
| I get little computer messages. | ||
| Bob in Austin, Texas says, Professor Mack, a court will want empirical evidence. | ||
| Do you have it? | ||
| Well, this is the old thing. | ||
| You know, empirical evidence is that's the metaphysical question. | ||
| Yes, there is evidence. | ||
| Yes, there are cuts, scoop marks, things on people's bodies. | ||
| There are some kind of suggestion of implants. | ||
| There are hints that people are missing sometimes. | ||
| But the physical, the three-dimensional physical evidence is thin. | ||
| But what has happened in our world, in our culture, is that we only understand knowledge that is in this three-dimensional physical proof framework. | ||
| There is the whole range of experiences that people have known throughout history of encounters beyond this three-dimensional world, which we've cut ourselves away from. | ||
| And that you can't necessarily prove something by the methods of the physical sciences, even though there is physical evidence, I should say, point out, does not mean that the phenomenon isn't of enormous importance. | ||
| So if we kind of wait around to be able to do, you know, as Carl Sagan used to say, wait till the log of the captain of the UFO falls in a field, you know, I mean, that's absurd. | ||
| First of all, it takes it much too literally. | ||
| But also, since there is so much resistance to even acknowledging that there's anybody out there besides ourselves, that the teenage boys that found such a log, for instance, in the field would be psychiatrically examined and accused of doing a hoax. | ||
| And then the document itself would be looked at and shown to be some ancient thing from a tribe that used to live there. | ||
| It's a matter of what we're able to perceive and take in at this point. | ||
| And the metaphysical piece, which you brought up several times, has to do with what we feel qualifies as knowledge. | ||
| In other words, a witness who tells us about an experience they've had which is extraordinarily life-changing and which is not psychiatric with some kind of entity that changed their lives and which follows a pattern that is now familiar to me and to many workers. | ||
| This is enormously important. | ||
| Can we prove it by the methods of three-dimensional science? | ||
| No. | ||
| Does that mean it's not of fundamental importance? | ||
| No. | ||
| So we're going to have to expand our whole way of knowing what in philosophy, metaphysics, as you called it, is called epistemology, you know, how we know things. | ||
| We need to find a way of knowing in these interdimensional studies which are as reliable as the methods of knowing in the empirical science field. | ||
| In such a trial, if you were asked what other professional witnesses other than yourself would you think it would be valuable to call, what kind of names would you bring forward? | ||
| Well, I don't want to name names because it's going to drag people into this right now who might not feel ready to be fingered like that. | ||
| But I can tell you the type of people, you'd want an astrophysicist, you'd want people, of course, in the UFO field that have seen the UFOs and have the photographs and have done the careful field work about people who've seen the UFOs. | ||
| I'd want to have people that have worked with people that have had the encounter experiences as well as the so-called abductees themselves. | ||
| I would want to have philosophers on there that can help us think about knowing in a more expanded, intelligent way. | ||
| Historians of science that can look at what happens when a whole new phenomenon has confronted the human species in the past. | ||
| Like, you know, it wasn't until the 18th century that it was officially considered possible that meteorites could fall from the sky. | ||
| That's true. | ||
| I mean, so there's a background to resistance of new knowledge in human psychohistory, if you will. | ||
| Going back to what you said about the Earth being in trouble, I couldn't agree more. | ||
| But our economy and the third world nations that are following in our footsteps, well, Doctor, they all want what we have. | ||
| They want a car, maybe someday a dream of two cars. | ||
| They want a house, and they want to be warm in winter and cool in the summer. | ||
| And basically, they want everything we have. | ||
| And if they get it, then we're not all going to get there, are we? | ||
| Well, the whole question of standards of living, does it depend on fuel consumption and SUVs that get 12 miles to the gallon. | ||
| I mean, my little Honda can get 30 miles to the gallon, which is a third of that. | ||
| Is it possible to develop fuel economies or methods of transportation and heating our houses that don't destroy the environment at the rate that we're doing? | ||
| In other words, could conservation, from an energy point of view, that we would, I agree with you, we should take the lead in this since we consume, what are we, 3% or 4% of the world's, 5% of the world's population and consume 25% of the energy, something like that. | ||
| That's about right. | ||
| I mean, we would have to take the lead in abstinence, in reducing our own addiction to consumption. | ||
| But we're not leading, though, are we? | ||
| No, we're not. | ||
| But I think it starts at home. | ||
| We can't sort of broadcast what the rest of the world should do until we begin ourselves to take responsibility as leaders of some kind of sane behavior around consumption. | ||
| I mean, I don't hear conservation as a big part of the environmental program of this country right now. | ||
| No. | ||
| And by conservation, I also mean at an individual level. | ||
| Actually, our entire economy is based pretty much right now on consumption. | ||
| Information, consumption. | ||
| We've changed all around. | ||
| So, you know, bearing in mind that this is the direction that we're headed right now, and we don't seem to be taking many detours. | ||
| And if this continues and the rest of the world follows us as a model, which they will, because, boy, you'd send Hollywood movies around the world and we're the example, we're what you want to be like, then where are we going? | ||
| Well, I'm not a social engineer. | ||
| I mean, I think just more and more people like yourself who reach many people, people who write on this subject. | ||
| I think there's this great emphasis in the economy. | ||
| Growth is an unquestioned good thing. | ||
| Every day you read the economy grow. | ||
| Well, think about that growth. | ||
| What does that growth mean? | ||
| Does that mean spilling more pollutants into the environment? | ||
| Does growth have to mean that? | ||
| Can growth mean increase in educational capability? | ||
| Can growth mean more value that comes from services? | ||
| Can growth mean developing the economy as a service information economy rather than as a consumption of raw materials economy? | ||
| But those questions are, I mean, I'm not an economist or a business person, but they seem like no-brainers to me. | ||
| Yeah, me too. | ||
| And when I look at where we're headed, I think then it's only a matter of how long we can continue on this path. | ||
| And I think your 10 to 15-year estimate is a pretty good one. | ||
| That's a short amount of time, unless there is some kind of intervention. | ||
| You know, I'm going to be in big trouble at home if I don't tell people what to do, if they're interested in learning more about our work. | ||
| Well, of course. | ||
| Can I give an address? | ||
| If people want to write to us, they can write to us at PEER. | ||
| You mentioned the Program for Extraordinary Experience Research, P-E-E-R, at P-O-Box 398080. | ||
| Or if they have email to write to us, they can get the book you mentioned, Passport to the Cosmos, and other information about our work at our website, www.peermac, P-E-E-R-M-A-C-K dot org. | ||
| We've got a link up now on my website. | ||
| Your book is available nationwide as well in bookstores, right? | ||
| It is. | ||
| And I personally would love to hear from people. | ||
| I'm at the Cambridge Hospital, and my own email address is. | ||
| You're sure you want to do this? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Sure. | |
| I'd like to hear what people are thinking about all these years. | ||
| Oh, all right. | ||
| Go right ahead. | ||
| At Polar P-O-L-A-R MAC at AOL.com. | ||
| That's P-O-L-A-R-M-A-C-K. | ||
| At AOL.com. | ||
| But, you know, I think that you create community with your work. | ||
| You link people and allow people to have a chance to wake up and become conscious around these things. | ||
| And I think that any way we can help to strengthen that web of connection that you contribute to is really important. | ||
| Maybe with respect to this possible trial that we're talking about for the first time tonight, there's some attorneys. | ||
| Obviously, this is going to cost money. | ||
| We don't know where it's going to come from yet. | ||
| Maybe some attorneys would like to do some pro bono work in this area. | ||
| Yeah, I mean, Danny Sheehan would know about that. | ||
| And, you know, the whole mechanism of how to collect the money and how to get people involved in this. | ||
| I mean, I don't know how, you know, this is the first time on your show that this subject has really come up publicly. | ||
| So I think we're brainstorming. | ||
| That's right. | ||
| We are. | ||
| And I think the audience will consider it as well. | ||
| And who knows? | ||
| Maybe we'll ask them to help out. | ||
| Maybe there'll be a financial backer that will suddenly appear magically, and we can do all of this. | ||
| And it's just in the formative stages. | ||
| And I don't even know why I talked about it tonight. | ||
| Well, it might even be a kind of grassroots movement that people might contribute a little bit of money from hundreds of thousands of people would be incredible. | ||
| Midgins, maybe. | ||
| It would. | ||
| And I personally, though, as much as I would love to simply have it covered on radio, it sounds like a TV item to me. | ||
| Television should be involved. | ||
| Yeah, I think the trouble is that, you know, my experience over many years in this kind of work is that there's a freedom in radio that TV doesn't have. | ||
| Oh, you bet. | ||
| And that the resistance to doing anything wide open like this on TV is enormous. | ||
| That's been my experience. | ||
| Well, they like the O.J. trial. | ||
| They'd love this. | ||
| And there are some cable networks, for example, now that really do allow a significant amount of freedom. | ||
| Not as much as radio, but there's so much reality television going around now. | ||
| That would be a hell of a piece of reality TV, wouldn't it? | ||
| Sure. | ||
| I mean, that's the kind of thinking we need. | ||
| I mean, any of us that have connections with people in the cable networks or Yeah, I mean, you'll probably get some good ideas out of this, you know? | ||
| I hope so. | ||
| I would love to allow some of my audience to ask you some questions maybe in the final half hour here. | ||
| Yeah, let's go. | ||
| But first, if you would, what do you consider of what you have investigated to be the strongest case that you've got? | ||
| There's so many. | ||
| I mean, so strong in different ways. | ||
| In your mind. | ||
| In my mind. | ||
| As a reasonable person. | ||
| Kind of a court term they use. | ||
| I mean, that would convince a reasonable person more than any other case. | ||
| I think that that there are several. | ||
| I think that there's one there are people like a young woman I have in mind who in her twenties had just never had even thought about these things and then just was totally shocked to begin to have these beings appearing in her living room and was just terribly upset about it and the transformations that went on in her experience, | ||
| first from trauma and then from a kind of profound, profound, loving connection with this whole world that was opened up to her. | ||
| There are a young man I think of who was working in the service industry and then began to just I feel the strongest cases are the ones that have no particular relationship to UFOs. | ||
| They're just out of nowhere. | ||
| They report, they have these experiences, they keep them to themselves. | ||
| Somebody says this sounds like you should talk to Mac or someone like that. | ||
| And they say, you know, Doc, I think you're going to think I'm crazy, but here's what happened to me. | ||
| And then what's really powerful is when you say to them, well, you know, I've heard this from other people. | ||
| This is not and they just get they have what I call ontological shock, which is everything that they've ever believed is shattered by this, and they become really upset. | ||
| And because I can't tell them it's going to go away, and it's crazy that there's something that they have to treat as real. | ||
| And when you've had that experience with person after person, you just know that you're dealing with something that you can't dismiss. | ||
| Well, people know they can talk to you. | ||
| People know they can talk to me. | ||
| But sometimes when we stumble into something on the radio, like this simple thing we've called the shadow people, other people come forward and say, oh my God, I've had it for years. | ||
| And they're in tears. | ||
| They're actually in tears, Doctor, just so happy that they're not crazy. | ||
| Well, you know, you've had on your program, you've had Pamela Stonebrook on your program. | ||
| I absolutely have, yes. | ||
| And Pamela Pam, Diva, likes to recall, she's had encounters with these reptilian beings, and she's had a lot of guts to talk about this because ho, ho, ho, and sex with aliens, blah, blah, blah. | ||
| I know. | ||
| Well, I mean, her case, which I know very well, I mean, is a very true and real case. | ||
| That's why I put her on the air, Doctor. | ||
| Hold on, we're at the bottom of the air. | ||
| We've got a break here. | ||
| We'll be right back from the high desert. | ||
|
unidentified
|
This is Coast to Coast AM. | |
| Watching in slow motion as you turn around and say. | ||
| I'm sorry. | ||
| Bang a body in the future. | ||
| Bang a lot in the home. | ||
| make the long way home Should you care if you're feeling good, you'll take the long way home. | ||
| Take the long way home. | ||
| There are times that you feel your body's scenery. | ||
| Oh, the greenery is coming down, boy. | ||
| Amen. | ||
| Wanna take a ride? | ||
| Call our bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-6188-255. | ||
| East of the Rockies, 1-800-8255033. | ||
| First-time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222. | ||
| The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295. | ||
| And to call her on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903. | ||
| This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nigh. | ||
| Here comes your opportunity, and a rare one at that, to speak with Professor John E. Mack. | ||
| Rare that he does interviews. | ||
| Harvard's John Mack. | ||
| I'm Art Bell. | ||
| this is close to close a m and if you'll stay right where you are that's what's coming Once again, Professor John Mack, his book, Passport to the Cosmos, available everywhere, bookstores, of course, Amazon.com. | ||
| We've got a link up for it right now. | ||
| And he has boldly, ha ha, perhaps foolishly, given out his personal email address, which is Polar P-O-L-A-R, MAC, M-A-C-K, at A-O-L Dot com. | ||
| So you are welcome to email him. | ||
| This will probably be a new, invigorating experience for him. | ||
| Your email box will be full before you get off the air. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Doctor, just watch. | ||
| All right, I got to make a correction there. | ||
| It's PolarPier, not PolarMac. | ||
| Mine is Polar, P-O-L-A-R-P-E-E-R at A-O-L.com. | ||
| Our work, the work. | ||
| I can already see a thousand emails bouncing. | ||
| PolarPier. | ||
| Our program, the website where people can get information about our program or my book or whatever, is www.peermac.org. | ||
| There are two different numbers there. | ||
| Oh, it's a good thing you corrected this. | ||
| PolarPier. | ||
| That's P-O-L-A-R-P-E-E-R at A-O-L.com. | ||
| Ha ha ha ha. | ||
| Good luck, AOL. | ||
| All right. | ||
| One quick question, then to the phones. | ||
| Joe in El Paso, Texas, asks an intriguing question. | ||
| Do you think, Doctor, that mad cow disease and all the tales of aliens messing with cows for all these years might have some kind of relationship? | ||
| No idea. | ||
| No idea. | ||
| I wonder what Linda Howe would say about that. | ||
| What do you think? | ||
| Well, I bet she'd be suspicious. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| That's outside my area. | ||
| I do think that there is some evidence that the whole kind of cattle mutilation or these lights that are seen around the farms when these ranches, when this happens, has some relation to this encounter phenomenon. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| They seem to be associated in some way. | ||
| Mad cow disease, I have no idea. | ||
| That's one scary disease, and it might answer some questions. | ||
| Well, anyway, first-time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. John Mackim. | ||
| Hello there. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, hi. | |
| My name is Leanne, and I'm from Kent, Washington. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| And I could easily be in one of your books, and I'm reading the second one, The Passport, the Cosmos, and find it very interesting. | ||
| My question is, I've had interdimensional experiences most of my life, but it wasn't until your abduction book that I realized what was wrong with me. | ||
| It's not wrong with you. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I'm saying it quite quote, you know. | |
| However, I've done a lot of work on myself. | ||
| I still find it very difficult to get rid of the body trauma. | ||
| It was pretty traumatic for me. | ||
| And I still sometimes in certain medical procedures and sexually will start having flashbacks. | ||
| Do you have any suggestions on how to, even though consciously I know what's going on, my body still goes through the moments and I kind of freak out a little bit? | ||
| It's a great question. | ||
| I'm sure a lot of people listening have the same question. | ||
| Just for other people's benefit, this is a very physical phenomenon. | ||
| This is one of the reasons that I took it so seriously, is that people who have these experiences have intense kinds of feelings in their bodies. | ||
| They sometimes will say, every cell in my body is vibrating, or they'll feel that they hold some intense energy that has come into them that they don't know what to do about. | ||
| One of the things you could do is work with, if you know somebody who knows about this encounter phenomenon but also understands body energies, to get them to work with you and to express some way that you can discharge these feelings, express some feelings intensely. | ||
| You'd have to find someone you trust who knows this field. | ||
| Or you could, particularly if somebody does body work, I mean, you can find body workers who can help you. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I've seen a massage therapist for years. | |
| She's not, I mean, she knows about the phenomenon. | ||
| It doesn't seem, does this ever go away? | ||
| Is this something I'll have to just live with the rest of my life? | ||
| I think that, yes. | ||
| I mean, often with the people we work with in, yes, it can be relieved. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| A lot of the people we work with find very great relief in their bodies with relaxation sessions that allow the body just to react and to express their emotion with a voice or let their body shake and let the energy pass through and move on. | ||
| But you have to find somebody that can do that combination of relaxation and really what I call hold the energy. | ||
| In other words, really be present to the person as these very intense feelings come through emotionally and physically. | ||
| And I don't know, where do you live? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I live in Kent, Washington. | |
| Yeah, why don't you write to us and see if we know somebody in your area that might be able to help you? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, and they definitely have to be familiar with this phenomenon. | |
| Otherwise, I don't want to be labeled something else anymore. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| Familiar with the phenomenon and know the body. | ||
| No body work. | ||
| I mean, can do physical... | ||
| All right, the answer is... | ||
|
unidentified
|
Can I say something to Art? | |
| Yes, sure. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, I periodically fall asleep listening to your show. | |
| Not that it's boring, but it's late. | ||
| And the last one you had on the Shadow People was not a good one to fall asleep with, because as soon as I got into that dream state, I had a big TV screen with somebody with bright, glowing, red eyes. | ||
| Okay, well, I'm sorry. | ||
| I apologize. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Can I blame you for that one? | |
| All right, well, thank you. | ||
| It can't be the first time that he's kept people awake. | ||
| Or probably influenced the dream state worse yet. | ||
| You mentioned Pamela Stonebrook, and oh, was I criticized when I put Pamela on the air, but I did it for a reason. | ||
| I did it, A, because I believed her. | ||
| B, because I think there's a whole lot more sexual activity going on with regard to abduction cases than people are ever willing to talk about. | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| You agree with that? | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| And Pamela is unusual in that she's able to face up to the encounters she's had with these reptilian beings, including the sexual aspect of it, tell the truth about it, take the hits and the criticism and the put-downs and all that. | ||
| She's very gutsy. | ||
| I've been very impressed with her. | ||
| And she's, you asked about cases before that have impressed me. | ||
| She's one of the ones that has been very impressive to me. | ||
| Well, there have been since Pamela many others. | ||
| So that's an area that just has been way underexplored. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Wildcard line, you're on the air with Professor Mack. | ||
| Hello. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, good evening or morning. | |
| Morning, probably. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Thanks for taking my call. | |
| I'm related. | ||
| Welcome back. | ||
| Where are you, sir? | ||
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unidentified
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I'm in northwest Colorado. | |
| Okay. | ||
| Yeah, K-R-M-R. | ||
| I listen to things like this, and I'm reminded of a book named The Population Bomb, if I might date myself. | ||
| Almost none of it came true, anyhow, any of it that really mattered. | ||
| the notion of a static planet, that this planet should keep a constant temperature throughout time seems a little absurd to me. | ||
| And the last point I'd like to make in this... | ||
| Not absurd, not totally absurd, but I think that the jury is really still out, and the way that it's presented in mainstream media is that it's etched in stone fact. | ||
| And I really think the jury is still in the middle of the morning. | ||
| Actually, that's one of the areas around the environment that the scientists have pretty much closed ranks on and agreed without exception. | ||
| I mean, there are controversial areas, but that's not one of them. | ||
| And I think if the polar ice caps really do melt and cities are flooded, I mean, that isn't just about having a different temperature. | ||
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unidentified
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Okay. | |
| Well, I'd like to ask a question and make a third point vis-a-vis on global warming on my second point. | ||
| If the ocean levels rose, wouldn't that create a larger surface area of water on the planet? | ||
| And wouldn't that larger surface area give off more water vapor and create more clouds, which would reflect light and cause more rain and cause the planet to cool? | ||
| And then my last point. | ||
| Maybe so, but that might be after New Orleans went underwater and a lot of coastal cities disappeared and a few other things that a lot of us would consider unpleasant would occur. | ||
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unidentified
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But maybe so. | |
| My point being is that the planet may have its own immune system. | ||
| And the third point being is that it never had to deal with a species like us. | ||
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unidentified
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Well, perhaps so. | |
| And my third point is that you call for huge government action. | ||
| And if I might play Harry Brown for a moment, how can you believe that any sort of national worldwide global action might be any more effective at stopping global warming than they've been effective at putting out the fires in Yellowstone or putting out the fires in Los Alamos or the war on drugs or the war on poverty or the war on anything else? | ||
| I don't remember asking for huge government action. | ||
| I think this is a far broader matter. | ||
| It involves all of us, corporations, all our institutions, government included, all of us as individuals. | ||
| I mean, these problems that we're talking about, I mean, most of the major problems we face, I think you'd agree with this, are created by human beings. | ||
| I mean, and so they are to be... | ||
| He doesn't think that human beings could have an effect on the planet. | ||
| He doesn't think that any meager little thing we do matches up to anything nature might have in mind. | ||
| I never heard that position before. | ||
| Listen to Rush Limbaugh. | ||
| East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Professor Mack. | ||
| Good morning. | ||
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unidentified
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Good morning, Art and Professor Mack. | |
| I'm sorry, Bob in Austin, Texas. | ||
| Okay, Bob. | ||
|
unidentified
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Professor Mack, would you have any difficulties in entertaining the following that these individuals, and there's a link I'd like to propose between NDEs and ET experiencers, that these individuals are experiencing something that is real, but that is so overwhelming outside their vocabulary, | |
| outside of any mental paradigms, that it is we who get to paint the picture of the reptiles or Brinkley's Crystal City, or the alternative is insanity. | ||
| Well, if I get the thrust of your question, I think I agree with what you're saying, which is that there is a link between the phenomenon like near-death experiences, NDEs, | ||
| or the alien encounter phenomenon, that they have in common an opening up of our consciousness to energies, to realities that are experienced and can be experienced if the person doesn't have any guidance or help as overwhelming. | ||
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unidentified
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Exactly. | |
| Now, I don't believe that that has led to people distorting perception so they're seeing reptiles when they're really having some sort of vague trauma. | ||
| I think they're seeing what is there to be seen. | ||
| But I do agree with the notion that part of the resistance to facing this whole thing is that the energies involved are so powerful. | ||
| They are not something that we can build a bigger astrodome and control. | ||
| One of the ads on the program had to do with a woman saying that she likes red roof because you can control the environment in the room. | ||
| Well, we have a passion for control as a species, and this phenomenon, the encounter phenomenon, confronts us with the limitations of our ability to control the cosmos, to control the universe that we live in. | ||
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unidentified
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I'm continually impressed with how we appear to be so locally conceited in our interpretations, whether it's in Rorschach photographs from the Mars Explorer. | |
| We have a tendency to make things so local, so within our realm of knowing, when someone in science, I don't know who, said nature is far more strange than we can possibly imagine. | ||
| Oh, yeah. | ||
| I think we want to make it manageable. | ||
| You know, we don't want to face the mysteries. | ||
| But, you know, the whole fact that we're here at all and where we're going when we die is nothing but mysteries. | ||
| You know, and I think life's a lot more exciting when we open to the mysteries. | ||
| But, you know, I'm biased in that direction. | ||
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unidentified
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Absolutely. | |
| Well, thank you both. | ||
| Thank you very much, and take care. | ||
| I'm certainly biased that way myself, and that's another one of the great societal denials, and that's death itself. | ||
| It's one of the greatest of all, isn't it? | ||
| Yeah, I mean, I think that he mentioned near-death experiences. | ||
| I think people that open to death through near-death experiences have a kind of preview of what may be to come, and whether that's accurate or not, they're not afraid of death by and large anymore. | ||
| Most of them have magnificent transcendent experiences. | ||
| Some of them have traumatic experiences, but most of them open up to a divine connection, and they just aren't afraid of death anymore. | ||
| Tomorrow night, I'm going to have Daniel Brinkley on. | ||
| Interesting. | ||
| Oh, he's a wonderful fellow. | ||
| Dan is no more scared of death than the man in the moon. | ||
| He said he was such a badass that he had to have two near-death experiences in order to have him see the divine and change his ways. | ||
| Well, he's still kind of a badass, actually. | ||
| Good for him. | ||
| West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Professor Mack. | ||
|
unidentified
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Hello. | |
| Good morning, gentlemen. | ||
| My name is Gary. | ||
| I'm from the Seattle area. | ||
| Hi, Gary. | ||
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unidentified
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I have a slightly complicated question. | |
| I've adjusted it somewhat listening, but let me try and ask it and get a response here. | ||
| Dr. Mack, I've heard you repeat several times tonight, and let me say that I've worked with UFO investigations with MUFON and some other groups, so I've never experienced. | ||
| But I was a little disturbed to hear you keep repeating the word metaphysical. | ||
| And you said several times you seem to think these are physical, but yet you seem to be a little reticent about saying these creatures could be physically present here on the earth and in our environment. | ||
| And it just seems to me there's overwhelming evidence. | ||
| I mean, we've had thousands of military pilots. | ||
| I've talked to some of them around the world. | ||
| I mean, there was a man in Canada a few years ago. | ||
| He walked up to Atlanta UFO and touched it and got radiation burns. | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| No, I think they're completely physical. | ||
| I'm just saying that they also open us to other dimensions and that if you look at a multi-dimensional universe or you look at the higher realms of reality, spiritual realms, the three-dimensional world is contained within those multiple dimensions. | ||
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unidentified
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Oh, absolutely. | |
| And I think anyone with a higher intelligence coming here would have to be aware of that and would obviously be far ahead of us there. | ||
| It just seems to me at this point, we have these poor witnesses out there all by themselves. | ||
| They have no one in our official limb supporting them. | ||
| And as you said, it's a huge ontological shock to them. | ||
| I mean, huge. | ||
| I've talked to them. | ||
| And it just seems to me what we should all be striving for at this point is while examining the metaphysical interaction, I think we need to be striving to get our society to admit out in the open, officially, that these things are here, and so that these poor witnesses can have some support. | ||
| And maybe that would shock our society into a paradigm shift. | ||
| I agree. | ||
| I think you're absolutely right on it. | ||
| And I think that's the whole idea of this tribunal, this sort of mock tribunal to get at the fact-finding hearing that we've been talking about here would be to open this up so people don't feel so alone, so they feel that they can be talked about. | ||
| So Hollywood can't get off on trying to scare us with these ridiculous movies like Independence Day that gross millions by playing on people's fears. | ||
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unidentified
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Let me just say one more statement I read many years ago that impressed me. | |
| Carl Jung, who I greatly admire, he wrote in a book once that, and not his UFO book, another one, that he didn't feel that humans would become fully rational or fully appreciate themselves until they actually had a physical interaction with a quasi-human intelligence, he said, from another star system. | ||
| And I believe that too. | ||
| Yeah, I mean, who are we? | ||
| Who are we as a species? | ||
| What is our true identity? | ||
| Are we cosmic citizens or do we only belong to one state or one company or one nation? | ||
| I mean, the next step, it seems to me, in human evolution is to recognize, as one of the abductees, as well-known Jim Sparks says, because we've become citizens of the galaxy, not just kind of parochial characters that think that only my neighborhood, my physical neighborhood counts. | ||
| I think we're much too locally minded. | ||
| I agree with you entirely. | ||
|
unidentified
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Well, I admire you, Doctor. | |
| I hope you get this tribunal going. | ||
| Yeah, thanks. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Thank you very much, Caller. | ||
| And it promised two hours, and you have given two hours, and it evaporates very, very quickly, Doctor. | ||
| Again, your book is Passport to the Cosmos. | ||
| It's available nationwide in bookstores, Amazon.com, which gives incredible discounts available through our website. | ||
| And your web address, which we, again, we gave out a wrong one. | ||
| The right one is Polar, P-O-L-A-R. | ||
| That's my personal one. | ||
| Let's give the web, which is where you get the book, which is www.peermac, P-E-E-R-M-A-C-K dot org. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And they will flood there. | ||
| We've got that link up. | ||
| What we didn't have, though, is your personal one. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| And so if you have good, legit material you'd like to have the doctor review, polarpeer at aol.com is a personal email address. | ||
| A very brave act giving that out. | ||
| Well, it's not, I mean, I'm not alone in being able to review what comes in there, you know, but I do want to hear people's reactions to this conversation. | ||
| Oh, you'll get that. | ||
| Doctor, thank you. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| And hopefully in long form, we'll be doing it again soon, sometime perhaps before the trial. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Take care, my friend. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
|
unidentified
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Good night. | |
| Dr. John Mack. |
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