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April 18, 2001 - Art Bell
01:24:51
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Alien Abduction Phenomenon - Professor John Mack
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There's something inside that we need so much.
The sight of a touch, or the scent of a sand, or the strength of an oak when it roots deep in the ground.
The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing.
To lie in a meadow and hear the grassling cut.
All these things in our memories haunt.
And they use them to count us to five!
Five!
Right now she's gone, take this!
Wanna take a ride?
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This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
Probably one of the most respected, academically respected men in America, Professor John Mack, Harvard's John Mack, will be here for two hours tonight.
Beginning in just a couple of minutes.
He's not just academically admired, but he's admired in the UFO community, he's admired in the paranormal community, and being admired in all of those spheres at the same time can have its problems.
Professor John Mack coming up in a moment.
Johnny Mack, MD, is professor of psychiatry Harvard Medical School at the Cambridge Health Alliance.
He is a graduate of the Boston Psychoanalytic Society and Institute, is board certified in child and adult psychoanalysis with over 40 years of clinical psychiatric education and experience.
Dr. Mack has continued to teach trainees in psychiatry throughout his career.
He has applied The Insights of Depth of Psychology to Address the Roots of the Cold War, Global Ecological Crisis, I was just talking about that, Ethno-Nationalism and Other Collective Phenomena that Inform Our Understanding of Human Identity.
In 1969, he founded the Department of Psychiatry at the Cambridge Hospital.
In 1983, he co-founded the Center for Psychology and Social Change.
Dr. Mack founded the program for Extraordinary Experience Research Peer, it's called, in 93 to explore varieties of anomalous experience.
Dr. Mack is the author and or co-author of 10 books, including A Prince of Our Disorder, a Pulitzer Prize winning biography of T.E.
Lawrence, Lawrence of Arabia, right?
Abduction and Nightmares and Human Conflict, his latest book, Passport to the Cosmos, Human Transformation and Alien Encounters was published in November of 99, released in a trade paperback edition in November of 2000.
He's written more than 150 scholarly articles.
Oh my!
What blew me away, absolutely, about his appearance tonight was reading the jacket of his book.
As you know, or he may not know, we've been dealing with this issue of people seeing things That they've never seen before in ever-growing, exponentially growing numbers.
These shadow people from the corner of the eye and peripheral vision, now people seeing them full on.
Entities that people have never seen before.
Ghosts that people have never seen before.
All of these things as though a veil or something were lifting.
And you read a little bit of the jacket of his book, my God!
It's just, it's not a setup, folks.
Let me read a little bit from the jacket.
In his groundbreaking follow-up to the best-selling abduction Pulitzer Prize winner, John E. Mack, MD, powerfully demonstrates how the alien abduction phenomena calls for a revolutionary new way of examining the nature of reality and our place in the cosmos.
Harvard professor John Mack stunned the world When he first published Abduction, the astonishing results of his extensive research involving clients who reported that they'd had encounters with alien life forms in Passport to the Cosmos, Mack, who has done additional research with abductees in the U.S.
and around the world, provocatively asserts that this phenomenon is part of a new era in human consciousness, a time in which we must be willing to embrace the idea that alien visitation is real on some level.
And he goes on to talk about people who are seeing things that they've not seen before.
A change in human consciousness.
So it's kind of right down the alley of where we've been lately.
Dr. Mack, welcome.
It's nice to be on your show again, Art.
Good to have you.
At the beginning I said that you are revered in a number of Communities, certainly the academic community.
Revered and reviled, I'd say.
Well, that's right.
But that's because of being revered in ufology, being revered in the paranormal community.
All of these don't mix real well, do they?
Well, it depends where you're positioned, I suppose.
I mean, there are people that just leave the whole academic world because it's...
It puts certain kinds of demands that they don't want to have to deal with and I completely understand that.
I've stayed within it because I think that sooner or later the mainstream of the culture needs to wake up as well as the people that are already awake.
But it's a conservative part of our culture, and I think properly so.
I mean, I think that academia stands for certain criteria of excellence and science of evidence, and I think that's quite legitimate.
Well, Professor, your academic credentials in a big crisis for you were challenged by Harvard, and I talked to, I said, A few minutes ago on the telephone, just before we got on the air, that I had spoken to your lawyer, and he said, what lawyer?
And I suppose the man who helped you or represented you when you were in that crisis, and his name is?
Oh, Danny Sheehan you're talking about.
Danny Sheehan, right.
Yeah.
No, I mean, when I was thinking about like now, you know, lawyer, this was a few years back that he and I worked together on that.
On my case, as they say.
Right.
Well, when I spoke to Danny Sheehan about your case and that fight, he said, you know, I wanted... Now, maybe he was speaking only for himself, or maybe he was speaking for you.
You can tell me.
But he said, what I wanted was, in essence, a trial.
In other words, a full hearing where you bring all kinds of people forward to support your side of the argument.
And he said, when they, Harvard, Let me step back because I think a lot of people that are listening to your program aren't familiar at all with what happened, what this trial thing that I went through is about.
better uh... is that characterization in your uh...
estimation accurate and uh...
please step back because i think a lot of people that uh...
listening to to program art familiar at all with what
uh... what my cropping that i went through is about to help uh...
when i uh...
uh... when abduction my first book on the subject was published in
nineteen ninety four i had rather naively
thought that my i'd
i'd try to make as careful documentation of of uh...
thirteen people that i had worked with quite intensively would have these encounters
right basically said you know this
This may not fit our notions of reality, but these people are telling the truth.
There's nothing clinically that I know that can account for this.
There's some kind of visitation going on here, and I set that forth, and I was quite excited.
I thought maybe in the sense that I thought this was very important and that it would be greeted with the same sort of great interest that I had had.
I was rather surprised, literally surprised.
I probably shouldn't have been, but the avalanche of distress that this ran into.
That was greeted very well out here.
Yeah, but I mean in my... You're talking about Harvard.
In the medical school, and so the dean appointed a three-person committee to see if I had in some way transgressed Academically or clinically or something of that sort.
My work was investigated for 15 months.
Now, when one of the deans said to me when this committee was formed, John, you wouldn't be in trouble if you just said you found a new psychiatric syndrome of unexplained cause, but you said that this might require that we look at reality differently.
Got me into trouble.
So this went on for 15 months.
Danny Sheehan alerted me to the potential seriousness of the whole thing.
It's been sort of overblown that they were trying to get rid of me and all that.
I never had believed that.
I think what it was about was to try to, so the university could say that they were holding me to a certain standard.
Well, you were tenured anyway, weren't you?
Well, not in the sense that Harvard is obligated to have an appointment that is without indeterminate duration is how they call it.
It means that as long as somebody at a hospital or clinical base is willing to support it one way or another, the appointment goes on.
Well, if they weren't trying to get rid of you, what are the other outcomes that could have been?
Oh, some sort of censure, I suppose, or some sort of turning it over to a medical board to look at whether I had done some wrongdoing in some way.
i could have been ugly in that way but but uh... we with denny sheehan's great help uh... and
another lawyer here in in boston
what we were able to to show that uh...
i simply had accurately
reported what what i was hearing and what i was learning and what it
implied and and affidavits from many of the people that i've worked
with them a lot of witnesses that
argued for me and uh...
and basically we we came to a kind of gentle gentlemanly agreement that uh...
i should uh...
pursue following certain standards
And involving more colleagues, which is something I thought was quite right.
In other words, I was asked to put together a multidisciplinary group within and also outside of Harvard to look at how do we study something that doesn't fit our notions of reality, what we call anomalous experiences.
You mentioned PEER.
We've been doing that.
We had a two-day symposium, which was not Harvard-sponsored, but took place at the Harvard Divinity School, in which people from many different fields looked at this phenomenon and other anomalies and said, well, what do we do if something doesn't lend itself easily to the... it doesn't reveal itself through the methods of science as we have known them?
seems to fall into anthropology philosophy history of science
psychology psychiatry physics many different fields what do you do with it you know
i'm talking about that the so-called alien abduction phenomena
and those colleagues that you've involved uh... so far How's it gone?
Have they come into it with open minds, and what's been the outcome of what they've learned?
It depends who you talk with.
I have my own perspective on this, and there are, I know, still people that, behind my back, whatever, and publicly, I suppose, sometimes, too, although less so, will say, you know, I've gone off to deep end, or this is crazy, It's not proven that the aliens are really physically here, therefore we don't have to pay attention to this, or something of that sort.
But by and large, I've seen a steady expansion through the work of many people.
I mean, you've had, I think, Bud Hopkins, and he's been on your show, right?
Oh, yes.
And Dave Jacobs, and a number of other people who have really pioneered this field more than I have.
I'm sure the heaviness has come in, in a way.
Newton's statement of standing on the shoulders of giants.
You know, there have been people ahead of me that have made very important discoveries in this area, but I've been kind of heavy who came in and said, hey, this is legitimate, this is important, this is real.
Professor, since you authored Abduction and all the time that has now passed, are you beginning to get any new ideas about the phenomena?
Is it beginning to evolve in your mind at all?
Oh, definitely.
This is what I find has happened.
What started out as, can you prove that aliens are here or not, has become a much broader canvas in terms of what is our relationship to other entities in the universe.
Are we alone?
is the only way we can find out whether we're alone or not whether we get
can pick up bleeps from on radio waves
center laser beams coming or or are we can we expand our notions of
an entity might be or being
the form beings might take in reaching us can we expand that to include
who are identified mainly through the powerful experiences that they bring to
to people uh... with some physical findings but where the physical
findings are not the predominant
form of evidence so it's it's a much broader question and
you know indigenous people in native peoples all over the world i mean i'm
everywhere's but many many people i've talked with other countries in
american uh...
native americans south america
They don't regard this phenomenon as so exceptional, because they have relationships with all kinds of beings that come from the other dimensions of reality and enter into our airspace, so to speak.
However, in this culture, we have ruled out, virtually, by a steady reduction of consciousness, really.
All other intelligence from the universe is not a projection of the human brain.
Well, Christianity plays no small part either.
Well, I don't know where it comes from.
I mean, I wouldn't just blame the churches on this.
I'm not.
I'm just saying.
Science has its part.
The whole culture has collaborated in so reducing our notions of reality to the three-dimensional world that we don't even have the sensory apparatus anymore to perceive The existence of entities of this sort which are perceived easily by indigenous people who haven't been so restricted by the culture.
Well, if I were to tell you that, and I just did at the beginning of the program, I'm having these thousands and thousands of emails about seeing entities, dark shadows that people are calling the shadow people, ghosts, people call them ghosts, people call them aliens, people call them almost Everything, actually.
Even ghosts of animals and all.
But people are suddenly seeing more.
That's like a bleed-through of the barriers that have been set up.
If you were to speak to a Native American medicine man about this, they'd say, what's the big deal?
I mean, we see these entities all the time.
It's as if the line, like an orange has a thick skin around and we have a kind of wind around us that has
uh...
so that uh... this is leaking through is alarming people and i we asked
but it's good it's the breakdown of uh... of this uh...
you know i i i think it has to do with in one way with the the radical
separation of church and state because so right
religion has been so associated with tyranny tyranny and dominance uh...
and control uh...
over the many centuries that what is good about religion that
uh... the depth of understanding that can provide that the spiritual connection with a higher
being there with a higher intelligence that's all
kind of in I mean, we give lip service to a belief in God, but I mean the real experience of the divine, that has been lost.
So I think these aliens, whoever they are, one of the things they seem to do is they break Do you have any idea why it's happening?
As you point out, the indigenous peoples aren't surprised at all.
the rest of the cosmos so i think that's what what's happening to these
people that are are emailing you
do you have any idea why it's happening as you point out the indigenous peoples
aren't surprised at all yes i've spoken with them
why would the the barrier be breaking down to people who were
uh... all i don't know Busy in the office every day, leading everyday lives.
Not Native Americans, but modern Americans.
I'll hold that one.
We're at the bottom of the hour, Doctor.
My guest is Professor John Mack.
Harvard's John Mack.
And we're talking about something I think incredibly important right now.
And that is, why Whatever it is that's going on right now is going on.
Why exponentially are we seeing more things suddenly?
I don't know that there's an answer to that at all.
At least not one we haven't understand yet, but it is happening.
I'm Art Bell.
I'm a nice guy.
To recharge Bell in the Kingdom of Nye, from west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
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East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222, or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
To rechart on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator.
and have them dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
Professor John Mack doesn't give a lot of interviews, so it's a rare opportunity to hear him.
I'm Art Bell and we'll be right back.
Music.
Sound of thunder.
once again professor john mac Professor Mack, I think I left it here.
Yes, indigenous Americans say, of course, we've been working with these beings and seeing them for years, forever.
Why, though, would the average American, tromping off to work, busy watching TV and doing all the things that would probably take our consciousness somewhere else, suddenly begin to get glimpses of things that we don't normally see?
What's changing?
Well, I have two ways that I think about it.
I mean, I don't know the answer to that, but there are some things that sort of glare at us that seem to be related.
One is to do with what you mentioned earlier, the ecological crisis.
The Earth is in trouble, and the human species has so deposited its waste upon it without regard to the sustainable
life of the earth that we are facing the potential extinction of
the life forms many life forms on the earth including ourselves
and uh... i might point out that uh... we're facing uh... this in the political sense the administration now
seems to be intent upon deregulating
so that will not be hampered at the expense of the earth.
And if this isn't reversed, then we're going to not have a planet to live on.
Now, this fact has not gone unnoticed, apparently, beyond the Earth.
In other words, it seems that the Earth has some importance in a larger network of being that extends beyond us.
Now, I never would have believed such a thing, except from the work that I've done, but it seems like there is some kind of desperate outreach going on here from
the cosmos to this species that seems to have no concern for the web of life and is only
concerned with its own consumption.
And so it's trying to reach us, to awaken us to the catastrophic nature of the threat
to the environment that this one species, namely us, is creating. So that seems to be
a big part of it. Another part of it seems to have something to do with some sort of
exchange program. I don't know what to call it, but this is what Bud Hopkins and David
Jacobs have pioneered and discovered about this hybrid program where some sort of, at
least one of these species, and maybe more in some way are connecting with us to create
a whole other set of beings, hybrids or whatever you want to call them.
Now, whether this is happening in our literal three-dimensional reality or in another dimension of reality, that's one of the most controversial subjects around this, how to think about it.
But that it's true and real is, I think, undeniable.
So there is some kind of mutual exchange program.
Perhaps what we're getting out of this is some change and awakening and opening of ourselves, expansion of who we are, and what the beings may be getting is some sort of, this is from the cases, actual experience of another kind of embodiment of earthly, our type of love and affection and sensuality, which they seem to lack.
So there's some kind of interspecies Connecting but that that would to really discuss that you have to get into the various different sorts of species that seem to be Reaching us now and the third area has to do with simply the matter of truth I mean if you it seems to be a principle of nature that if you suppress Freud demonstrated this in his work that if you suppress something repress something of great importance psychologically or in or or deny reality it
It comes back, it comes back to appear, it shows up.
So our suppression of all life, all intelligence, everything that people call spirit, all beings, all entities, the denial of this has reached such an extent that in a sense it's sort of It's like a return of the repressed of the existence of other intelligence in the cosmos.
What other peoples have known and what this culture really knew until the last 300 years or so.
We appear to be in complete denial with regard to the state of the environment.
I note this administration has cut in half the amount of money that it wishes to devote to the study of alternative fuels.
While pursuing coal and oil avidly.
And this is a catastrophe.
And I'm surprised, Jim, because you speak about west of the Rockies, you know, and the Rockies and the mountain states, which are so conservative, you would think that people in those states would be particularly sensitive to the environment and to the life of the uh... of the forest in the rivers in the fishing and what
in the livestock i mean you would think that they would be that
they would be particularly alerted to to the danger to the environment uh...
although that seems to be a source of of support for this kind of deregulation it's quite it's quite
puzzling to me it's um...
a very puzzling and scary to me because you said the earth is in trouble and uh... i guess the
progression uh... toward uh... possible ecological disasters
pretty fast right now at least that's the way i read it uh...
Unchecked, I wonder how long you think we have to go until we get a serious wake up.
well the late dana meadows to melissa was uh... great pioneer in awakening us
to it was the limits of growth and uh...
uh... and beyond the limits bestsellers that
kind of like rachel
carson silent spring of the fourth pioneering books about that
state of the ecology and and she estimated uh...
based on on projected statistics that she had worked out in terms of the
sustainability of our life
style as we now are pursuing it that we might have another
ten or fifteen years to uh... but it's not it may not
the all one moment that it collapses may collapse gradually we
mean for example the price of fish is going up like fourfold in the last
Well, that's because the supply of healthy fish in the ocean is rapidly dwindling.
So then we're the lobsters and we're just feeling warmer, but that's all.
Yeah.
At what point is there any space in there between awakening and death?
I mean, in terms of the heating up of the pot.
Do we wake up so we can get out of it?
Or do we just croak before we realize what we're doing to the Earth?
Well, maybe that's what these other entities are, and that's why they're making more frequent appearances.
Maybe they're standing at the top of the pot, saying, hey, stupid, it's about to boil in there!
Well, I mean, the people that we work with, I mean, Bud Hopkins sometimes says, well, if they're all that concerned about the environment, why don't they do something about it?
The only thing they can do about it is change consciousness to show us images, which they do regularly when people have the encounters, show them images of what we're doing to the earth, awaken the people's visceral gut feeling about what's happening.
A lot of the people that we work with at our program do become quite active on behalf of the earth, very concerned about what we're doing.
So they do do something about it.
They do what you do, Art, which is to wake people up, even at 2 or 3 in the morning.
Yeah, even at 2 or 3 in the morning.
Doctor, since abduction, do you have any doubt now about the reality of what occurred to those people that you chronicled?
None whatsoever.
However, having said that, I do not necessarily believe that each person that's having an encounter or experiences being taken into a spaceship or whatever, having poked, probed, or also having a powerful spiritual experience or connection with the beings, all of this, I don't necessarily believe this is all happening in our three-dimensional physical reality.
I don't know.
uh...
provable to be all three-dimensional or uh...
you know i'm not sure if we went up for example into the heavens and
and started to you know look inside looking for spaceships we'd find little
aliens in there and in our airspace or something
i think we have to expand our whole the physicists have become quite interested in recently in
this whole notion of a multi-dimensional universe
Oh, very interested.
And I think that's helpful in terms of our efforts to understand where these... where, that is, in what dimension all of this is happening.
But the fact that we're having some kind of inter-dimensional connecting doesn't make it any less real.
In fact, it makes it more real in some ways, because it's part of a larger reality.
What do you suppose would happen, Professor, The metaphysical world and the scientific world all of a sudden got on the same page.
What kind of consequences would there be for society?
Well, that's exactly what's happening now.
I mean, in our neck of the woods, I mean, this multi-dimensional conference I was telling you about, we had philosophers and scientists getting together, and some of the people that I work with personally are in those fields, and they are very much They're feeding each other intellectually.
I think the metaphysical dimension of this is being increasingly recognized.
In other words, how do we think about reality?
How do we know what we know?
What is the right way to decide whether somebody is telling the truth or not?
Because you can't set up an experiment, a controlled experiment to see whether aliens are here or not.
work with the people's experiences and so how do you decide who's an authentic truth teller here witness to this is and that those are clinical and philosophical questions so that's we are collaborating very much with not only with physicists and psychologists but with philosophers around just those questions.
But if the scientists verify the additional dimensions And then, metaphysically, we begin to get in a good, solid communication with beings from, perhaps, other dimensions.
The social consequences, the religious consequences, would be... you couldn't calculate them.
Well, you know, it's very interesting.
You mentioned the religious consequences.
Have you ever had Father Corrado Balducci on your program?
I have not, but I guess I ought to.
He's a Vatican prelate, still wears the cassock in good standing, a man in his mid-70s.
I had the privilege of meeting him a couple of years ago.
He's quite well known in the UFO community now.
I heard him speak at San Marino in Italy and got to know him some.
He's the, he's called the, he was the head Vatican demonologist, and although he's officially retired, the fact that he still, he says that obviously what he's saying is not counter to official Vatican policy.
So he's not that out of line, and he says the church, Catholic Church, and he, We have to take this very seriously, this so-called encounter or abduction phenomenon.
Why?
Because there are so many thousands of reliable witnesses.
But when he said that, there was a big stir, not perhaps quite as big or with as serious a consequence as you had in your life when you wrote your book.
I mean, the Vatican did ring a little bit when he made that statement.
But they didn't deny it.
No, they didn't deny it.
They did not.
And you know, I don't know how the church works politically.
It may be as hard to understand as Harvard, you know.
I don't know.
But what his relationship to the Vatican when he made those statements was, I don't know.
But I mean, there are things, if you say them and put them forth, you lose your standing in the church.
And he did not.
and uh... he's quite frank about the fact that if you have the church we have thousands of reliable
witnesses you gotta take it seriously and uh...
that's what he says in the he sticks to that well
i uh...
i guess i guess we should talk a little bit again about
danish okay because
he called me the other day and uh... represented to me that he had
represented you during the trouble at Harvard.
And he said, you know, we never got to what was going to be the fun part for me, because I really wanted a trial.
I wanted a trial.
I wanted to bring witnesses forth.
I wanted to really do it up.
And they backed away from that.
And he said, so, hey Art, how about this idea?
Suppose we were to get three federal judges and he claims he knows three retired federal judges and a prosecutor and a defender and virtually have a trial with presentation of evidence and uh... witness testimony in the whole thing would that be a good idea and i said oh my god of course it would be a good idea i'd love to do it and i guess he's
Has he run this?
He's run this by you.
Oh, yeah.
We've been talking about it.
How did it hit you?
What do you think?
Well, I think it depends how it's done.
I think it could be a terrific idea.
Danny has, as you may know, he had a great deal to do with opening up our awareness around nuclear power, the Silkwood case, Wounded Knee, the whole Iran-Contra thing.
You name it, he's been on the forefront of just about every uh...
cutting-edge uh...
area of of uh... sort of social malpractice in the sense that
that uh... has been going on in this country and uh...
and that very effective and he has a group of investigative
assistance work with him that are probably better at getting the truth about something then
anyone i know what would you imagine the question to be tried
what's going on i think i don't think they should
uh... i personally don't think they should be a good guy in a bad guy
I don't think it should become some adversarial thing between the prosecutors and the government cover-up.
I don't think it's about that.
I think it's not about anybody's doing anything bad.
I think there are people in the scientific community that ought to be questioned.
In government, there are people in the religious community, people in psychology, psychiatry.
My idea of this would be to get the truth, to get to the bottom of what is really, of course, the UFO community is crucial here.
What is really going on?
What do we know?
How can we find out?
It wouldn't be like there's some bad guys covering things up.
I think that's the wrong approach.
I mean, I support full disclosure and I support people like Stephen Greer that are trying to get as much knowledge through the government as possible.
I think those are very good things to do.
I just think that the ring of trial tribunal should Should not convey that what he's trying to do is to put some person or some group on trial.
No, no, no, no.
But rather have an open forum that would create a way of bringing witnesses forward to get at the real facts of this whole UFO encounter.
Yes, but obviously for balance and for consideration of the federal judges there would have to be one side which would be Presenting the, I suppose, skeptical side, huh?
Sure, exactly.
Exactly.
So you'd have people that would say, now there's nothing going on here, and this is all a figment of people's imagination, and then you'd have the evidence presented, and it could be quite extraordinary.
What would you bring to such an event?
What would who bring?
You.
If you were asked to either testify personally, as an expert, Or to bring witnesses, would you be able to do that?
Yeah, I would take not just the arguments or the case, so to speak, as I tend to make it in my books or in talking here, but I would try to select certain individuals that have had the encounters and have them present their experiences and why they uh... took it so seriously and how it affected their lives
and so that the
fact that we're dealing with plausible by and large healthy normal people
parts of the society that this would get across in and so i would
the i would be the first that one of the people who would support the truth of
the encounter uh... the encounter the facts of the encounters that
that are going on just uh... curious and i suppose you'd be biased but how
would you uh...
imagine the result of such a confrontation and it would be uh... aired either on radio
or television or We don't know yet.
How would you imagine it would end up?
I have no idea.
I think it would be enlightening.
First of all, there is this idea, quite prevalent in the country, that people are too skittish.
The people, it would be too dangerous for the people to know.
Too dangerous for the people?
Well, we'll pick up on that when we get back.
It's the top of the hour right now.
Professor John Mack is here.
I'm Mark Bell.
What do you think?
A big trial?
open to everybody I'm quite the conversation
I'm I'm
Well, call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
Well, call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
And to reach Art on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them
dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
Good morning, all.
Professor John Mack from Harvard is my guest.
He'll be here for the remainder of this hour, so we've got to go right to work.
stay right where you are.
Well, I didn't solicit that sound, but I'll take it as the return.
So we're back, Canada, with Professor Mack.
Professor Mack, we were talking about Americans and whether they would accept the concept of a radical change.
Scientists all the time are saying, well, we thought we knew, but now we think We're hearing that all the time.
So it could change, and metaphysics and science could come together, and there could be a whole new reality.
But you know, it's a lot like the Brookings Institution study of what would happen if we were confronted suddenly with the presence of aliens, and what would happen from a societal point of view.
It could be very, very disturbing, or at least that's what they concluded then.
Has that changed?
It depends how you ask the questions.
I mean, if you asked people, do they want to know?
Do they wish to have facts covered up that are known by scientists or by government officials?
People are much more likely to say, we want to know.
If you say, would you be alarmed if aliens showed up here, there, and the other place?
They might be alarmed.
I mean, first of all, As far as I can tell, the aliens, not every encounter is a pleasant one.
People have very traumatic encounters sometimes for all kinds of reasons.
However, everything I've ever seen, heard, whatever, people I've worked with, there is not as much harm in the entire experience I have with this encounter phenomenon as we do To each other in a single day.
So there is not any suggestion that these are films like Independence Day notwithstanding.
There is not a shred of evidence that these beings wish to do us harm.
The worst that could be said is what Dave Jacobs said, which is that they are changing our nature in some way.
cohabitating with us in such a way that we are being transformed.
As far as I could tell, that could only be for the better.
Well, Dr. Jacobs did, however, allow for the fact that they may not be friendly.
That's what I'm saying. In other words, that they may not be friendly, but
I mean, I think his position is rather extreme in that respect, and I don't say that they're
good guys or bad guys. I don't see it that way.
Some of the experiences are traumatic and some are transformative,
in a positive way. It depends a lot on the consciousness of the person having the experience.
It's a good thing.
In any event, the fact is that something is going on here and it's not malevolent in the way we are when we make war upon each other or upon the environment.
I think people, if prepared appropriately, are just simply told This is what's going on.
They kind of know it anyway.
If it was presented in a truthful, honest, balanced way, I think the people are much more ready for this than the Farmers would have us think.
Back to the trial concept for a second.
Three retired federal judges.
They'd be a tough sell.
I get little computer messages.
Bob in Austin, Texas says, A court will want empirical evidence.
Do you have it?
Well, this is the old thing, you know, empirical evidence.
That's the metaphysical question.
Yes, there is evidence.
Yes, there are cut scoop marks, things on people's bodies.
There are some kind of suggestion of implants.
There are hints that people are missing sometimes.
But the physical, the three-dimensional physical evidence is thin.
But what has happened in our world, in our culture, is That we only understand knowledge that is in this three-dimensional, physical proof framework.
There is the whole range of experiences that people have known throughout history of encounters beyond this three-dimensional world, which we've cut ourselves away from.
And that you can't necessarily prove something by the methods of the physical sciences, even though there is physical evidence, I should say, for that.
Does not mean that the phenomenon isn't of enormous importance.
So if we kind of wait around it to be able to do, you know, as Carl Sagan used to say, wait till the log of the captain of the UFO falls in the field.
I mean, that's absurd.
First of all, it takes it much too literally.
But also since we're there is so much resistance to even acknowledging that there's anybody out there besides ourselves.
That the teenage boys that found such a log, for instance, in the field would be psychiatrically examined and accused of doing a hoax.
Then the document itself would be looked at and shown to be some ancient thing from a tribe that used to live there.
It's a matter of what we're able to perceive and take in at this point.
The metaphysical piece, which you brought up several times, has to do with what We feel qualifies as knowledge.
In other words, a witness who tells us about an experience they've had which is extraordinarily life-changing and which is not psychiatric with some kind of entity that changed their lives and which follows a pattern that is now familiar to me and to many workers.
This is enormously important.
Can we prove it by the methods of three-dimensional science?
No.
Does that mean it's not of fundamental importance?
No.
So, we're going to have to expand our whole way of knowing what in philosophy, metaphysics as you call it, is called epistemology.
You know, it's how we know things.
We need to find a way of knowing in these interdimensional studies which are as reliable as the methods of knowing in the empirical science field.
In such a trial, if you were asked what other Uh, professional witnesses other than yourself, would you think it would be valuable to call?
What kind of names would you bring forward?
Well, I don't want to name names because it's going to bring, you know, drag people into this right now.
I might not feel ready to be, you know... Yes, I understand.
...fingered like that, but I can tell you the type of people.
You'd want an astrophysicist.
You'd want people, of course, in the UFO field that have seen the UFOs and have the photographs and have done the careful fieldwork about people who have seen the UFOs, people who have worked with people who have had the encounter experiences, as well as the so-called abductees themselves.
I would want to have philosophers on there that can help us think about knowing in a more expanded, intelligent way.
Historians of science can look at what happens when a whole new phenomenon has confronted the human species in the past.
It wasn't until the 18th century that it was officially considered possible that meteorites could fall from the sky.
There's a background to resistance of new knowledge in human psychohistory.
Going back to what you said about the Earth being in trouble, I couldn't agree more, but our economy and the third world nations that are following in our footsteps, well, doctor, they all want what we have.
They want, you know, a car, maybe someday a dream of two cars, they want a house, and they want to be warm in the winter and cool in the summer, and basically they want everything we have, and if they get it, Then we're not all going to get there, are we?
Well, the whole question of standards of living, does it depend on fuel consumption and SUVs that get 12 miles to the gallon?
My little Honda can get 30 miles to the gallon, which is a third of that.
Is it possible to develop fuel economies?
Methods of transportation and heating our houses that don't destroy the environment at the rate that we're doing.
In other words, conservation, from an energy point of view, that we would, I agree with you, we should take the lead in this, since we're the, we consume, what are we, 3 or 4% of the world's, 5% of the world's population consume 25% of the energy, something like that.
That's about right.
I mean, we would have to take the lead in, you know, What would you say in abstinence, in reducing our own addiction to consumption?
We're not leading, though, are we?
No, we're not, but it starts at home.
We can't broadcast what the rest of the world should do until we begin ourselves to take responsibility as leaders of some kind of sane behavior around consumption.
I mean, I don't hear conservation as a big part of the environmental program of this country right now.
No.
And by conservation, I also mean at an individual level.
Actually, our entire economy is based pretty much right now on consumption.
Information, consumption.
Well, I'm not a social engineer.
so you know the bearing in mind that this is a direction that we're headed
right now and we don't seem to be taking many detours and this continues in the rest of the world
uh... follows us as a model which they will cause
boy you'd send hollywood movies around the world and were the example were
what you want to be like then and then where we go
well i'm not a social engineer i mean i think this one more people like
yourself who reach many people.
People write on this subject.
There's this great emphasis in the economy on growth as an unquestioned good thing.
Every day you read, did the economy grow?
Think about that growth.
What does that growth mean?
Does that mean spilling more pollutants into the environment?
Does growth have to mean that?
Can growth mean increase in educational capability?
Can growth mean more I don't.
Me too.
that comes from services can growth mean developing the economy as a service information economy
rather than as a consumption of raw materials economy but those questions
are uh... i mean i i'm not an economist or business person but
they seem like uh... no-brainers to me
me too and uh... when i look at where we're headed i think then it's
only a matter of
uh... how long we can continue on this path and i i think you're ten to fifteen
year estimates pretty good one that's a short amount of time in less there
kind of intervention and i'm going to be uh... uh... in big trouble at home if i
don't tell people if they're what to do if they're interested in learning
more about our Well, of course.
Can I give an address?
If people want to write to us, they can write to us at PEER.
You mentioned the Program for Extraordinary Experience Research, P-E-E-R, at P.O.
Box 398-080.
Or if they have email to write to us, they can get the book you mentioned, Passport to the Cosmos, and other information about our work by I personally would love to hear from people.
e are and they seek a and we've got a link of now and my website
and uh... your book is available nationwide as well books as right
and i personally would love to hear from people at uh... i'm at the cambridge
hospital uh...
and uh... are uh...
are right on uh...
email addresses you're sure you want to do this Sure, I'd like to hear what people are thinking about all these things.
That's P-O-L-A-R-M-A-C-K.
I think that you create community with your work.
I think that you create community with your work.
You link people and allow people to have a chance to wake up and become conscious around
So I think that any way we can help, you know, to strengthen that web of connection that you contribute to is really important.
Maybe with respect to this possible trial that we're talking about for the first time tonight, there's some attorneys, obviously this is going to cost money.
We don't know where it's going to come from yet.
Yeah.
Maybe some attorneys would like to do some pro bono work Yeah, Danny Sheehan would know about that and the whole mechanism of how to collect the money and how to get people involved in this.
This is the first time on your show that this subject has really come up publicly so I think we're brainstorming.
Oh, we are, and I think the audience will consider it as well, and who knows, maybe we'll ask them to help out.
Maybe there'll be a financial backer that will suddenly appear magically, and we can do all of this.
And it's just in the formative stages, and I don't even know why I talked about it tonight.
Well, it might even be a kind of grassroots movement that, you know, people might contribute a little bit of, you know, a little bit of money from hundreds of thousands of people would be, you know, incredible.
You know, midgens, maybe.
It would.
Personally, though, as much as I would love to simply have it covered on radio, it sounds like a TV item to me.
Television should be involved.
My experience over many years in this kind of work is that there's a freedom in radio that TV doesn't have.
Oh, you bet.
And that the resistance to doing anything wide open like this on TV is enormous.
That's been my experience.
Well, they like the O.J.
trial.
They'd love this.
There are some cable networks, for example, now that really do allow a significant amount of freedom.
Not as much as radio, but there's so much reality television going around now.
That'd be a hell of a piece of reality TV, wouldn't it?
Sure, I mean, that's the kind of thinking we need.
I mean, any of us that have connections with people in the cable networks or... Oh, they're all listening right now.
Yeah, I mean, you'll probably get some good ideas out of this, you know?
I hope so.
I would love to allow some of my audience to ask you some questions, maybe in the final half hour here.
Yeah, let's go.
If you would, what do you consider, of what you have investigated, to be the strongest case you've got?
There's so many.
There's strong in different ways.
In your mind?
In my mind.
As a reasonable person.
Oh boy, oh boy.
Kind of a court term they use.
I mean, that would convince a reasonable person.
More than any other case.
I think that there are several.
I think that there's one, there are people like a young woman I have in mind who in her twenties had just never had even thought about these things and then just was totally shocked to begin to have these beings appearing in her living room and was just I'm terribly upset about it and the transformations that went on in her experience, first from trauma and then from a kind of profound, profound loving connection with this whole world that was opened up to her.
There are young men I think of who was working in the service industry and then began to I, for the strongest cases, are the ones that have no particular relationship to UFOs.
They're just out of nowheres.
They report, they have these experiences, they keep them to themselves.
Somebody says, this sounds like you should talk to Mac or someone like that.
And they say, you know, Doc, I think you're going to think I'm crazy, but here's what happened to me.
And then what's really powerful is when you say to them, well, you know, I've heard this from other people.
This is not...
And they just get, they have what I call ontological shock which is everything that they've ever believed is shattered by this and they become really upset because I can't tell them it's going to go away and it's crazy that there's something that they have to treat as real.
And you've had that experience with person after person, you just know that you're dealing with something that you can't Well, people know they can talk to you.
People know they can talk to me.
But sometimes when we stumble into something on the radio, like this simple thing we've called the Shadow People, other people come forward and say, oh my God, I've had it for years.
And they're in tears.
They're actually in tears, Doctor.
Just so happy that they're not crazy.
Well, you know, you've had on your program, you've had Pamela Stonebrook on your program.
I absolutely have, yes.
Diva, as we call her, she's had encounters with these reptilian beings, and she's had a lot of guts to talk about this, because ho, ho, ho, and sex with aliens, blah, blah, blah.
I know.
Well, I mean, her case, which I know very well, is a very true and real case.
That's why I put her on the air, Doctor.
Hold on, we're at the bottom of the hour.
We've got a break here.
We'll be right back from the high desert.
this is Coast to Coast AM.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
Oh, baby, you're the one that I need.
Wanna take a ride?
Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
Want to take a ride? Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1222.
And to call it on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
Here comes your opportunity, and a rare one at that, to speak with Professor John E. Mack.
Rare that he does interviews.
Harvard's John Mack.
I'm Art Bell.
This is Coast to Coast AM and if you'll stay right where you are, that's what's coming next.
Once again, Professor John Mack.
His book, Passport to the Cosmos, available everywhere.
Bookstores, of course, Amazon.com.
We've got a link up for it right now.
And he has boldly, ha ha ha, perhaps foolishly, given out his personal email address which is polar p-o-l-a-r mac m-a-c-k at a-o-l dot com so uh... you are welcome to email him this will probably be a new invigorating experience for him uh... your email box will be full before you get off the air uh... all right um... doctor just why they got to make a correction there it's uh...
It's polar peer, not polar mac.
Mine is polar, P-O-L-A-R-P-E-E-R at AOL.com.
Our work...
I can already see a thousand emails bouncing.
Polar peer.
Our program, the website where people can get information about our program or my book
or whatever is www.peermac.org.
So there's two different numbers there.
Oh, it's a good thing you corrected that.
Polar peer, that's P-O-L-A-R-P-E-E-R at AOL.com.
Ha ha ha ha.
Good luck, AOL.
Alright, one quick question then to the phones.
Joe in El Paso, Texas asks an intriguing question.
Do you think, doctor, that mad cow disease And all the tales of aliens messing with cows for all these years might have some kind of relationship.
No idea.
No idea.
I wonder what Linda Howe would say about that.
What do you think?
Well, I bet she'd be suspicious.
I don't know.
It's outside my area.
I do think that there is some evidence that the whole kind of Cattle mutilation or these lights that are seen around the farms or these ranches when this happens has some relation to this encounter phenomenon.
I don't know.
They seem to be associated in some way.
Mad cow disease?
I have no idea.
That's one scary disease and it might answer some questions.
Well anyway, first time caller on the line, you're on the air with Dr. John McIntyre.
Hello there.
Oh, hi.
My name is Leanne, and I'm from Kent, Washington.
Yes.
And I could easily be in one of your books, and I'm reading the second one, The Passport of the Cosmos, and I find it very interesting.
My question is, I've had interdimensional experiences most of my life, but it wasn't until your abduction book that I realized what was wrong with me.
It's not wrong with you.
I'm saying it quite quote, you know.
However, I've done a lot of work on myself.
I still find it very difficult to get rid of the body trauma.
It was pretty traumatic for me and I still sometimes in certain medical procedures and sexually will start having flashbacks.
Do you have any suggestions on how to Even though consciously I know what's going on, my body still goes through the moments and I kind of freak out a little bit.
It's a great question.
I'm sure a lot of people listening have the same question.
Just for other people's benefit, this is a very physical phenomenon.
This is one of the reasons that I took it so seriously is that the people who have these experiences have intense kinds of feelings in their body.
They sometimes will say, every cell in my body is vibrating or they will feel that they
hold some intense energy that has come into them that they don't know what to do about.
One of the things you could do is work with, if you know somebody who knows about this
encounter phenomenon but also understands body energies, to get them to work with you
and to express some way that you can discharge these feelings, express some feelings intensely.
You would have to find someone you trust who knows this field, or you could, particularly
if somebody does body work, you can find body workers who can help you release some of these
energies.
I've seen a massage therapist for years.
She knows about the phenomenon.
Does this ever go away?
Does this have to live with the rest of my life?
I think that yes.
I mean, we often with the people we work with, yes it can be released.
A lot of the people we work with find very great relief in their bodies with relaxation sessions that allow the body just to react and to express their emotion with a voice or let their body shake and let the energy pass through and move on.
But you have to find somebody that can do that combination of Relaxation and really what I call hold the energy.
In other words, really be present to the person as these very intense feelings come through emotionally and physically.
I don't know, where do you live?
I live in Kent, Washington.
Why don't you write to us and see if we know somebody in your area that might be able to help you.
Yeah, and they definitely have to be familiar with this phenomenon, otherwise, you know, I don't want to be labeled something else anymore.
Exactly.
Familiar with the fellow and know the body, know body work.
I mean, can do physical... Alright, the answer is... Well, thank you.
Can I say something to Art?
Yes, sure.
Oh, I periodically fall asleep listening to your show.
Not that it's boring, but it's late.
And the last one you had on the Shadow People, Was not a good one to fall asleep on, because as soon as I got into that dream state, I had a big, like, TV screen with somebody with bright, glowing red eyes.
Okay, well, I'm sorry.
I apologize.
Don't blame me for that one.
It can't be the first time that he's kept people awake.
Or probably influenced the dream state, or worse yet.
You mentioned Pamela Stonebrook, and oh, was I criticized when I put Pamela on the air, but I did it for a reason.
I did it, A, because I believed her, B, because I think there's a whole lot more sexual activity going on with regard to abduction cases than people are ever willing to talk about.
Absolutely.
You agree with that?
Absolutely.
And Pamela is unusual in that she's able to Face up to the encounters she's had with these reptilian beings, including the sexual aspect of it, tell the truth about it, take the hits and the criticism and the put-downs and all that.
She's very gutsy.
I've been very impressed with her.
You asked about cases before that have impressed me.
She's one of the ones that has been very impressive to me.
Well, there have been, since Pamela, many others, so that's an area that just has been way underexplored.
All right.
Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Professor Mack.
Hello.
Oh, good evening or morning.
Morning, probably.
Thanks for taking my call.
Sure.
Welcome back.
Where are you, sir?
I'm in northwest Colorado.
Okay.
I listen to things like this, and I'm reminded of a book named The Population Bomb, if I might date myself.
Almost none of it came true.
Anyhow, any of it that really mattered.
The notion of a static planet, that this planet should keep a constant temperature throughout time, seems a little absurd to me.
And the last point I'd like to make... So global warming is absurd to you, right?
Not absurd, not totally absurd, but I think that the jury is really still out, and the way that it's presented in mainstream media is that it's Etched in stone fact, and I really think that you're right.
Actually, that's one of the areas around the environment that the scientists have pretty much closed ranks on and agreed, without exception.
I mean, there are controversial areas, but that's not one of them.
And I think if the polar ice caps really do melt and cities are flooded, I mean, that isn't just about, you know, having a different temperature.
Okay, well I'd like to ask a question and make a third point vis-a-vis global warming on my second point.
If the ocean levels rose, wouldn't that create a larger surface area of water on the planet?
And wouldn't that larger surface area give off more water vapor and create more clouds which would reflect light and cause more rain and cause the planet to cool?
And then, my last point.
Maybe so, but that might be after New Orleans went underwater, and a lot of coastal cities disappeared, and a few other things that, you know, a lot of us would consider unpleasant would occur.
But, maybe so.
My point being is that the planet may have its own immune system.
And the third point being is that it never had to deal with a species like us.
Well, perhaps.
And my third point is that you call for huge government action.
And if I might play Harry Brown for a moment, how can you believe that any sort of national, worldwide, global action might be any more effective at stopping global warming than they've been effective at putting out the fires in Yellowstone, or putting out the fires in Los Alamos, or the war on drugs, or the war on poverty, or the war on anything else?
I don't remember asking for huge government action.
I think this is a far broader Matter involves all of us, corporations, all our institutions, government included, all of us as individuals.
I mean, these problems that we're talking about, I mean, most of the major problems we face, I think you'd agree with this, are created by human beings.
I mean, and so they are to be, it's only... Well, you see, that is where I think he disagrees.
He doesn't think that human beings Could have an effect on the planet.
He doesn't think that any meager little thing we do matches up to anything nature might have in mind.
I never heard that position before.
Listen to Rush Limbaugh.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Professor Mack.
Good morning.
Good morning, Art and Professor Mack.
Where are you?
I'm sorry, Bob, in Austin, Texas.
Okay, Bob.
Professor Mack, would you have any difficulties in entertaining the following?
That these individuals are experiencing something that is real but that is so overwhelming outside their vocabulary, outside of any mental paradigms, that it is we who get to paint the picture of the reptiles or Brinkley's Crystal City or the alternative is insanity.
Well, if I get the thrust of your question, I think I agree with what you're saying, which is that there is a link between the phenomenon like near-death experiences, NDEs, or the alien encounter phenomenon, that they have in common an opening up of our consciousness to energies, to realities that are experience and can be experienced if the person doesn't
have any guidance or help as overwhelming.
Now I don't believe that that has led to people distorting perceptions so they are seeing
reptiles when they are really having some sort of vague trauma.
I think they are seeing what is there to be seen.
But I do agree with the notion that part of the resistance to facing this whole thing
is that the energies involved are so powerful.
They are not something that we can build a bigger astrodome and control.
One of the ads on the program had to do with a woman saying that she likes Red Roof because you can control the environment in the room.
Well, we have a passion for control as a species and this phenomenon, the encounter phenomenon, I'm continually impressed with how we appear to be so locally conceited in our interpretations, whether it's in Rorschach photographs from the Mars Explorer.
that we live in.
Oh yeah, I think we want to make it manageable, you know.
We don't want to face the mysteries, but you know, the whole fact that we're here at all, and where we're going when we die, is nothing but mysteries, you know.
And I think life's a lot more exciting when we open to the mysteries, but you know, I'm biased in that direction.
Absolutely.
Well, thank you both.
Thank you very much, and take care.
I'm certainly biased that way myself, and it's another one of the great societal denials, and that's death itself.
It's one of the greatest of all, isn't it?
Yeah, I mean, I think that you mentioned near-death experiences.
I think people that are open to death through near-death experiences have a kind of preview of what may be to come, and whether it's accurate or not, they're not afraid of death, by and large, anymore.
Magnificent transcendent experience.
Some of them have traumatic experiences, but most of them open up to a divine connection, and they just aren't afraid of death anymore.
Tomorrow night, I'm going to have Daniel Brinkley on.
Interesting guy.
He's a wonderful fellow.
And Dan is no more scared of death than the man on the moon.
He said he was such a badass that he had to have two near-death experiences in order to have him see the divine and change his ways.
Well, he's still kind of a badass, actually.
Good for him.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Professor Mack.
Hello.
Good morning, gentlemen.
My name is Gary.
I'm from the Seattle area.
Hi, Gary.
I have a slightly complicated question.
I've adjusted it somewhat listening, but let me try and ask it and get a response here.
Dr. Mack, I heard you repeat several times tonight, and let me say that I've worked with UFO investigations with MUFON and some other groups that I've never experienced.
I was a little disturbed to hear you keep repeating the word metaphysical.
You said several times you seem to think these are physical but yet you seem to be a little
reticent about saying these creatures could be physically present here on the earth and
in our environment.
Yeah.
It just seems to me there is overwhelming evidence.
We've had thousands of military pilots.
I've talked to some of them around the world.
There was a man in Canada a few years ago.
He walked up to a landed UFO and touched it and got radiation burns.
Absolutely.
No, I think they are completely physical.
I'm just saying that they also open us to other dimensions.
If you look at a multi-dimensional universe or you look at the higher realms of reality,
spiritual realms, the three-dimensional world is contained within those multiple dimensions.
Absolutely.
I think anyone with a higher intelligence coming here would have to be aware of that
and would obviously be far ahead of us.
It just seems to me at this point, we have these poor witnesses out there all by themselves.
They have no one in our official room supporting them.
As you said, it's a huge ontological shock to them.
I mean huge, I've talked to them.
It just seems to me what we should all be striving for at this point is while examining the metaphysical interaction, I think we need to be striving to get I agree.
society to admit out in the open officially that these things are here and so that these
poor witnesses can have some support and maybe that would shock our society into a paradigm
shift.
I agree.
I think you're absolutely right on and I think that's the whole idea of this tribunal, this
sort of mock tribunal to get at the fact finding hearing that we've been talking about here
would be to open this up so people don't feel so alone, so they feel that they can be talked
about so Hollywood can't get off on trying to scare us with these ridiculous movies like
Independence Day that gross millions by playing on people's fears.
Let me just say one more statement I read many years ago that impressed me.
Carl Jung, who I greatly admire, he wrote in a book once, not his UFO book, another one, that he didn't feel that humans would become fully rational or fully appreciate themselves until they actually had a physical interaction with a quasi-human intelligence, he said, from another star system.
And I believe that, too.
Yeah, I mean, who are we?
Who are we as a species?
What is our true identity?
Are we cosmic citizens, or do we only belong to, you know, one state, or one company, or one nation?
I mean, we, we, we, we have, the next step, it seems to me, in human evolution is to recognize, as one of my, one of the abductees, as well-known Jim Sparks says, because we've become citizens of the galaxy, you know, not, not just, You know, kind of parochial characters that think that only my neighborhood, my physical neighborhood, counts.
You know, I think we're much too locally minded.
I agree with you entirely.
I admire you, Doctor.
I hope you get this tribunal going.
Yeah, thanks.
All right.
Thank you very much, Caller.
And it promised two hours, and you have given two hours, and it evaporates very, very quickly, Doctor.
Again, your book is Passport to the Cosmos.
It's available nationwide in bookstores, Amazon.com, which gives incredible discounts, available through our website, and your web address, which we, again, we gave out a wrong one.
The right one is Polar, P-O-L-A-R.
Well, that's my personal one.
Let's give the web, which is where you get the book, which is www.peermack.org.
here mac p e r m a c k dot org arm and they will flood there
We've got that link up.
What we didn't have, though, was your personal one.
Yes.
And so, if you have good, legit material, you'd like to have the doctor review.
Polarpeer at AOL.com is a personal email address.
A very brave act, giving that out.
Well, it's not, I mean, I'm not alone in being able to review what comes in there, you know, but I do want to hear people's reactions to this.
Falling in love was the last thing I had on my mind.
Holding you is a warmth that I thought I could never find.
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