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Feb. 8, 2001 - Art Bell
02:33:02
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Gary Schwartz - Afterlife Consciousness
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Time Text
Thank you.
Welcome to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Tonight featuring Costa Costam from February 8th, 2001.
From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening and or good morning as the case may be, and welcome to the best nighttime talk radio in the world.
Stretching virtually across the world from Guam in the West to the U.S.
Virgin Islands in the East, South into South America, North all the way to the Pole and worldwide on the Internet.
This is Coast to Coast AM and I'm Art Bell.
Howdy.
First of all, I'd like to welcome yet another new affiliate.
That would be KSUE in Susanville, California.
1240 on the dial there.
So, hello Susanville.
Listen.
Keith Rowland, my esteemed webmaster, has come up with a really, I think, unique feature.
Most radio programs will not list the affiliates that they're run on.
And there's a reason they do that.
They're usually afraid that other networks or radio shows will try and steal them away.
Well, we list our affiliates.
And boy did Keith come up with a cool way of doing it.
If you go to my website at www.artbell.com, and you go to the What's New thing on the left there, you'll see an updated affiliates list.
But what a unique way of doing it!
There's a picture of the United States, Hawaii, Alaska, Guam, and all the various states, and wherever you live, all you have to do is click on that state, and voila!
All of the affiliates in your state, in your area, will be listed.
That is pretty cool work, if I do say so myself.
And I do.
It's not mine, it's Keith's.
Really cool stuff.
So if you're looking for an affiliate in your area, that's the way to do it.
Just go up there and click on your state.
I see that he had to use extensions for all the Northeast states.
They're so close together.
But it's really cool.
You just click on whatever state you're in, take a look-see, and it'll tell you all the affiliates that are there.
That is pretty cool stuff.
So, that's on the website right now at www.arkbell.com.
In the news tonight, let me see.
Chiron defers talks after car bomb.
Figures.
New quakes hit India.
That's pretty serious.
A 5.3 magnitude injures 25.
Doesn't kill anybody, yet, that we know of.
Well, let's see.
Congress reviews Bush tax plan.
Argentina won't enter arms race.
That's about as interesting as it gets.
Couple of items.
I don't know how this got out.
It wasn't really a secret, but somehow it got out.
Somebody sent me an email saying someone told me Dan Aykroyd was going to be on the show.
Is this true?
He's not on the limited list on the website.
Yes, it's true.
Dan Aykroyd is going to be on.
Dan Aykroyd had a very serious UFO sighting.
A very, very serious UFO sighting.
And so we're scheduling Dan Aykroyd for some time toward the end of the month.
So it's true.
I just don't know how it got out.
All right.
In a moment, we're going to do something a little different.
I ran into somebody today who sent me a fax that I thought was really cool, interesting.
It just said, time is not speeding up, creation is.
And he goes on to say, we now have scientific proof from every discipline imaginable that the Mayan calendar is the timing of the unfolding of all creation slash evolution for the last 16.4 billion years.
We now know the exact schedule, get this, the exact schedule of creation, including the future.
We now can prove, as if it was needed, that more and more is happening in every second.
It's the quickening with a different angle here.
A very different angle.
Creation, my guest says, is speeding up.
My guest is going to be Ian X. E. L. Lundgold.
And I really want to know what he's talking about.
He's a layman.
He's, however, done some scientific work in this area.
With some credentialed scientists, and so I'm very curious about what the man has to say.
In a moment, we will find out.
Here's somebody who wants to keep our current sounder.
You know, the trash cans falling down the stairs?
It's, uh, Larise, who says, And why did ten-year-old Scarlett push her grandparents' metal trash cans down the wooden stairs?
Because it sounds so cool, of course!
Now we take you back to the night of February 8th, 2001, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
And now...
Thanks for watching!
This is Ian X.E.L.
Lundgold.
Ian, welcome to the program.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Every now and then, I take somebody like yourself that just faxes me or emails me, and it sounded so intriguing that I had to ask.
So I called you as soon as you faxed earlier today, and that's how you're on the program right now, right?
Absolutely.
Okay.
Now, time is not speeding up.
Creation is.
But first of all, you said creation slash evolution, so I guess we ought to get that straight.
Is there any... Do you have a preference, or could it be either or?
Either or.
Either or?
Yes.
So it doesn't really matter?
Creation is evolving.
Creation is evolving.
Consciousness is evolving.
Yeah, okay.
I can get behind that.
It could be either one, really, or both, actually.
In other words, it could be what we call evolution.
I suppose the whole thing could have started as the process of creation, and evolution is what we see unfolding scientifically.
Yes.
As a matter of fact, the Mayan calendar has nine different levels described of consciousness, or stages of evolution, that are of various lengths of time.
And this is how we can prove that creation is actually accelerating.
It is by measuring these levels.
Accelerating.
So, when you say creation, do you mean the actual changing of the human?
In what ways are we changing?
Well, actually what we're talking about here is the entire universe.
From the Big Bang forward to today, so it's not just our evolution.
Alright.
We are, to our own way of looking at it, we are the crown of evolution.
Yeah, that's our way of looking at it, and you're right, it's probably a little egotistical.
It's really everything, everything we can know and touch and see and look, the stars, the planets, everything.
Yes.
Right, gotcha.
Alright, but you say it's speeding up.
Right.
Well, actually, the Mayan calendar, like I said, is built on nine different levels.
The first level was 16.4 billion years or so long.
The second level is some 820 million years long.
The second level is some 820 million years long.
Now each of these levels turns out to be 20 times shorter than the level that came before
it.
Ah ha, hence the speeding up.
Well when we look at the historical record we can see that the same amount of change
happens in each one of these stages, but in 20 times less.
Faster and faster and faster.
This is what you were describing as the quickening.
I just called it that for lack of anything else.
I could feel it.
I could sense it.
I knew it.
And so I began to document it, and I wrote that book.
It's called The Quickening.
But your explanation sounds quite logical to me thus far.
Actually, that's what I've found, too.
I've been talking to a lot of people about this since I was introduced to the subject about a year and a half ago.
And everyone that I've talked to has experienced Well, you also say, we now know the exact schedule of creation, which in itself is interesting, including the future.
There is just no disagreement that more and more is happening in everybody's life, in every moment of everybody's
life.
Well, you also say we now know the exact schedule of creation, which in itself is interesting, including the
future.
Yes.
So, somehow you're able to look at these faster and faster slots of time as we go forward from the present, and that's
really interesting to me.
What does our future look like, Ian?
Well, let's do a little bit of background first.
Sure, go ahead.
Because the future is predicated on what has already passed.
We can predict the future in general by looking at the patterns of the past.
This is actually what the Mayan civilization had going for it for its 5,000 years of existence.
And now we're coming up on a time when we can once again view this information and apply it to our future as predictions.
So, let's take a look at the different cycles and what those cycles have produced.
Now you did this by correlating two calendars, right?
The Mayan and... As a matter of fact, yeah.
The Mayan calendar is actually a calendar system.
It's based on two different calendars.
One is the Zolkien calendar.
That is a 260-day curiosity.
And every 260 days, it repeats the same pattern.
And then there is another period of time called the Divine calendar or the Thun calendar, which is a 360-day curiosity.
It's very interesting that the Maya had the most accurate solar calendar Of any culture.
Up until the advent of computers, they were the most accurate.
But they never used that calendar for their civilization's ceremonies.
They always used the 360 day calendar instead of the 365 and one quarter day calendar.
Sir, I wonder why?
and one quarter day calendar. Huh, I wonder why? Well because the 360 day calendar is measuring
the actual happenstances of creation itself, not our lonely little orbit around this one dinky star.
Oh, you have a good point there.
After all, creation is all that is, not the Earth's simple rotation around our little, fairly dim star.
Right.
Good point.
Okay?
And, as it turns out, these cycles, each one of these nine cycles of creation, or spans of consciousness, are subdivided into 13 equal sections and we can look at their both the effect and also the Mayan legends or their tradition of what these individual sections have as a purpose and we find that actual events occurred that match the purpose of these 13 sections throughout all of the eight
Levels that we've so far passed through all right, and so then you again you took this calendar and Somehow squared it with a Gregorian as a matter of fact before I came into this last bit of information I received a formula and I say received because it was an idea that came all at once and uh... an inspiration i guess is another word to say that
provided a formula which converts the gregorian calendar to the actual mayan
calendar and it was a very very simple formula
it's so simple that anybody who will over the age of eight can easily do it
and what people have been looking for for five hundred and some odd years i came up with about thirty
seconds one afternoon you want to share it
uh... i can share it In fact, I am sharing it as widely as possible from my website through a thing called the Mayan Calendar and Conversion Codex.
It's a very simple paper-folded product that, in just a few moments, can convert any Gregorian day to the Mayan calendar.
Alright, so once you've done that, what have you achieved for us that is meaningful for us?
What we can do, the whole output, the whole reason for paying attention to the Mayan calendar, is because the Mayan calendar is measuring all of the natural cycles of all of creation.
And intuitively, inside, each of us knows that we need to get back to the natural rhythms of life.
That's for sure.
That our artificial systems are, well, in many ways, destroying us, or imperiling us.
And returning to a more natural way is something that's desired by almost everyone.
So if you're putting your attention on something which is measuring all those natural cycles, then your consciousness is naturally tuned or entrained to those natural rhythms.
And that's really the end goal of the whole Mayan calendar.
It was never to keep track of time.
It was always to be a measuring device or a tuning device for human consciousness or for consciousness of creation to know itself and its own path.
Okay.
It was always to draw people's consciousness back to the natural rhythms.
Now, was it the Mayan calendar that was supposed to just end?
It does.
It ends?
Yes.
Then, if it ends, how can you Well, you don't.
Actually, any game that you play has a beginning and an end.
Well, somehow it's just unsatisfactory to have you say game over, because it's obviously not.
I mean, here we are.
Well, there was a day when you graduated from high school.
That was not the end of your life.
But it was certainly the end of your high school day.
Right.
And we should look at the end of the Mayan calendar in a very similar way.
Okay, but again, you now say you cannot project from that which has ended.
Or can you?
Because in here, in the facts you sent, you're saying yes you can.
Creation is speeding up, and that we can virtually tell what's going to happen in the future.
Up to a certain point, and then we're going to have conjecture after that, because once the Mayan calendar ends, pretty much its prediction ends.
But we can extrapolate what happens after that.
I think that we should go over a little bit about this Mayan calendar to show people what kinds of things have happened, how we came to understand how we can predict anything.
All right.
Okay?
Oh, yes.
Here we go.
Now, each of these nine levels has 13 sections.
It starts with Inception, the beginning, the first section that goes through a period of enlightenment, and then it goes through a period of application or adjustment, then it goes through another period of enlightenment, then adjustment and enlightenment, and so on.
There are actually seven periods of light.
and six periods of dark in each one of these nine sections.
Each one of those periods has a specific purpose and a specific end or outcome.
The seventh light or the very end, the thirteenth section, is the fruit, if you want to call it that way, the fruit of the plant or the end result of the plant, The expulsion of seeds for the procreation of another plant, and what we have here is that the very first section, after quite a long time, after 16.4 billion years, it produced the cell, the human cell, or excuse me, the first cell of life, 1.26 billion years ago, one and a quarter billion years ago.
Then the next cycle, called the mammalian cycle, was 820 million years long, and its product in the last part of it was the first animal, some 850 million years ago.
Then we come into the familiar cycle.
Now the familiar cycle was a consciousness that was earned or evolved to by the first anthropoids, the monkeys.
We went from that into a two million yard long cycle called the Tribal Cycle.
And this is when the first humans appeared and formed tribes.
After that was the Cultural Cycle.
The Cultural Cycle has been running for 102,000 years.
102,000 years.
This was actually in the seventh day of that where we moved into the national cycle, which
was when written language was invented, as well as the First Nation, Egypt, and things
like bronze were invented right during that period of time.
That's a 5,125 year long cycle.
The Planetary Cycle, which we have just moved out of, was 256 years long.
This was the period of industrialism, starting in 1775.
Certainly was, yes.
And we then moved into the Galactic Cycle, which started January 5th, 1999.
And it will be running for 12.8 years.
Just 12.8 years?
Right.
Now, the last cycle, the Universal Cycle, will last for 260 days.
That's not very long.
And that's the end of the calendar.
Is that the end of us?
No.
That's not the end of consciousness.
Well, I know, but what about the physical end of us?
It may be.
It may be the physical end of us?
It may be, but what I want to point out here is that each one of these cycles contains the same amount of creation in 20 times less time.
The same amount of creation it took in 16.4 billion years, when creation was moving very slow, is going to happen now in these 12.8 years.
And the same amount of creation, the same amount of change in all of our lives, the same amount of technology increase, the same amount of understanding that we will increase in this last 12.8 years, will happen in the last 260 days as well.
Oh brother, that's some cycle!
It's really tremendous.
All right.
Hold it right there.
We'll be right back.
He took a hundred pounds of clay and made a really cute Raiders cheerleader.
I'm Art Bell and this is Coast to Coast AM in one of those cycles and moving pretty fast.
Stay right where you are.
You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from February 8, 2001.
I'm gonna fix this world today because I know What's missing?
Then he rolled his big sleeves up And a brand new world began He created a woman And a lot of lovin' For a man Whoa, yes he did With just a hundred pounds of clay He made my life It's worth living.
And I will thank you.
All is in motion.
Finding love is not a shame.
Running every turn.
It's useful to take a chance.
Watching in slow motion.
No more can I do to drown the pain They might get the way
They might get the way They might get the way
Psychological changes because of that.
Some people are going to exhibit another completely opposite effect
in finding more of a peace, of natural order.
And it depends on which way you're paying attention, which way your intention goes as to what kind of experience
you're going to have.
But in the fifth night...
There's always a disaster.
And what we have coming up on us is a fifth night.
And I wanted to kind of go through some of these half cycles to give people a perspective of what's coming up.
And so what might we expect in the fifth night?
Well, here in the mammalian cycle, we have the Perm-Triassic extinction of 97% of all life.
In the human cycle, we had the Elonian Ice Age.
In the cultural cycle, we had the extinction of the Neanderthals.
In the national cycle, there was the collapse of Rome.
In the planetary cycle was World War II and the development of atomic bombs.
Right.
Now, these were all in the fifth night.
We have a fifth night that we're approaching.
It will actually occur or start occurring on November 18th of 2007.
Oh, seven.
Good.
Thank you. 2007.
And this fifth night will last for 360 days.
Now, what we can expect in that is anything.
If you think of creation as a semi-truck with a nine-speed gearbox, and the thing is loaded, or maybe overloaded, it's absolutely dead still.
You begin to take off in the first gear and you go very slowly.
You wind up your acceleration until you reach the maximum speed in that gear.
That would be the fifth day.
That is the highlight of this cycle.
Then what do you do?
You put in the clutch.
Sure.
And what happens then is the momentum, the mass of that whole weight is rolling free.
Anything can happen.
And it would be, at this point, just conjecture on your part, say what that anything would be.
In this case, anything in the five billion years ago was a meteor bombardment.
The next was the pre-traffic extinction period.
So, many things that... Well, according to the kind of acceleration and change you're talking about, we're going to bump straight into a black hole or something.
Well, actually, what we're coming up on is an opportunity.
If you look at all these past occurrences, you will see that they are getting to be less and less of a drastic effect.
World War II, as bad as it was, was not the extinction of the Neanderthals, or an Ice Age, or a bombardment.
Consciousness is actually learning to drive.
We're not bumping into the walls as bad as we used to be.
And what we have here is, for the first time, we know the schedule.
We know what's coming up.
And we have an opportunity to actually grasp the wheel and drive ourselves through this.
Can we change it?
We certainly can.
Can we actually change it completely?
Take night and turn it into day?
Well, remember that a night is a period of application.
Yes, I understand.
And adaptation.
So you can't really change... If we do it consciously, we will have a much smoother transition.
You see, World War II was a very definite intent.
It was an intent, a focused intent, to dominate the world.
Right.
Which is not necessarily a good one, but it was definitely a focused intent.
The extinction of 90% of all life was not as focused of an intent.
It was a general intent.
So we can see that consciousness is becoming more and more conscious, more and more in control of its own destiny.
And that's where we're coming up on.
That's what's most important about getting this understanding and substantiating these facts for yourself.
Not just believing it, not just listening to a little blurb on the radio about it, but actually really getting in there and knowing these, recognizing this pattern.
Because with that recognition, we as a race will be able to take huge steps forward in our own consciousness.
Alright, well just take a little piece of what's going on right now.
I discuss it a lot.
The environment.
Yes.
Things are really, rapidly, exponentially going downhill in so many ways with the environment at the moment.
I could talk about a dozen different areas of melting ice and mammals that are beginning to eat each other and things that are changing and the ozone holes and the greenhouse effect and the warming climate and I could go on and on and on and on.
Where is this headed?
When we get to the fifth day, does it get better, or does it exponentially keep getting worse, or what?
It really depends on where your attention is.
But in general, what we're looking at is more and more is happening in every given moment.
That means that more and more is possible in any given moment.
What has always been the case is where you put your attention and intention is what you end up with.
It's always your decisions that put you in the place you are.
Right.
Got you.
So it depends on us.
It depends totally on us and on our understanding of our situation.
So you've really underlined the quickening in so many ways.
It's just everything's getting faster.
It could go either way.
It could become better.
It could become much worse.
But whichever way it goes, it's going to get there.
Faster.
That's right.
And with more possibilities.
You see, a miracle is something which is highly improbable.
Right.
As more and more and more happens in every given moment, what were once called miracles are more and more probable.
Like, for instance, some Japanese scientists just recently accelerated particles past the speed of light.
They actually received the particles before they were sent.
Right.
That's a miracle.
It's a miracle.
That's a miracle.
And we experienced it in our lifetimes.
A microwave would have been a miracle to your grandmother.
Absolutely.
We're experiencing these things all around us.
We see the miracles outside of ourselves easier than we see what's happening inside.
But the fact is, unless our consciousness was keeping pace with these developments, we would not even see them, let alone be able to apply the technology.
Well, I'm really looking forward to telepathy.
That's going to be very interesting.
And telekinesis.
And telekinesis?
All of the abilities that we have imagined.
The ability to, for those who don't know, affect material things with your mind.
That's right.
All of those things which we have at one time supposed to be completely beyond possibility.
Paranormal.
Paranormal.
But we recognize them.
We are moving very rapidly toward that consciousness.
The paranormal will become the normal.
Yes.
Now, in some cases, if people don't understand what is going on, they're going to think they're going nuts.
And they will.
The people who have a grasp of what this is and are actually participating in the flow will be able to benefit greatly from it.
Right.
That's the point.
Whoa!
It's a very good one indeed.
So people can learn more about this You know, this has been a short interview, one hour, but I am grasping it.
They can learn more at your website, right?
Yes.
www.mayanmagics.com And we will have a link, I'm sure by now, up on the website.
And they can find there a means, a tool, to be able to start tuning their consciousness to the actual flow of all of creation by putting your attention on the daily progression of the Mayan calendar You are necessarily paying attention to the flow of all of creation.
All of creation is the source of all knowing and intuition.
The real crux to the matter is that your mind has a speed limit that is 33 frames per second, called the flicker frequency.
Alright, well we're rapidly running out of time here.
Indeed, and the codex helps you to keep pace with creation.
Let's just put it that way.
Does it worry you at all that the Mayan calendar ends?
No, because actually what happens is eventually everything, there's so much that is occurring in every moment that eventually everything happens at once, which is the case in the first place.
And the illusion of time and space is thereby dissolved.
Yeah, people have always said that we have time so that everything doesn't happen at once.
And we're moving Right to the crux of that matter.
Gotcha.
All right.
Pleasure having you on.
I'm sure we'll do it again.
Thank you very much.
Take care, my friend.
I'm Art Bell.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
Dr. Gary Schwartz up next.
You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from February 8, 2001.
It could equal worldwide humiliation.
It's part of the dream of you.
Oh, the dream of you.
Drop it down, boy.
Make your wife a ginger dick.
It's part of the fun of you.
Oh, it's serious.
It could be a lonely night.
Lonely days and lonely nights.
Leave the streets to the city.
Take the long way home.
Take the long way home.
Never see what you wanna see.
Never bring good to God or me.
Take the long way home.
Take the long way home.
When you love somebody.
Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Tonight's program originally aired February 8th, 2001.
Uh, somebody just sent me a real quick, uh, message on the Fast Glasses that I saw an outside picture, which I sometimes, by the way, put up on the webcam during the day, and there was no power flag up.
What happened?
Well... We passed 50 mile an hour winds, that's what happened, baby!
And when you get 50 mile an hour winds, it'll take any flag and rip it to fresh reds.
And it's done that, too.
So, when the winds increase exponentially around here, as in quickening weather, we take the flag down so it may fly another day.
Anyway, coming up in a moment is Dr. Schwartz.
Dr. Gary E.R.
Schwartz.
I'll tell you all about them in just a moment.
Spring Link, the audio subscription service of Coast to Coast AM has a new name, Coast
You'll still get all the same great features for the same low price, just 15 cents a day when you sign up for one year.
The package includes podcasting, which offers the convenience of having shows downloaded automatically to your computer or MP3 player, and the iPhone app with live and on-demand programs.
You'll also get our amazing download library of free full years of shows.
Just think, as a new subscriber, over 1,000 shows will be available for you to collect, enjoy, and listen to at your leisure.
Plus, you'll get screened in on-demand broadcasts of Art Bell's Summer in Time shows and two weekly classics.
And as a member, you'll have access to our monthly live chat sessions with George Norrie and special guests.
If you're a fan of Coast, you won't want to be without Coast Insider.
Visit coast2coastam.com to sign up today.
Looking for the truth?
You'll find it on Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
It's obvious that the things that the Air Force has denied of the UFO phenomenon, there's a plan underfoot not to tell us anything.
Why do you think that is?
Look, they've been lying to us, not just on UFOs, they lie about everything.
Governments lie about everything.
In other words, the moment of disclosure, that's not the end of anything.
That is the beginning of an entirely new phase of the struggle for truth.
Now we take you back to the night of February 8th, 2001, on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
Alright, it comes now.
Dr. Gary E.R.
Schwartz, PhD.
Actually, just before he gets here, we've got a new feature on the website, which I think is really cool.
Keith really did this one up just right.
And if you want to know where an affiliate is in your area, he's got a map of the U.S.
with each state.
Click on your state.
It will then list all of the affiliates in your state by city and call letters and frequencies and what have you.
Really, really a cool piece of programming.
But somebody just pointed out to me that Keith has not put on St.
Thomas and the Virgin Islands.
I'll have to check that out.
He may have missed the Virgin Islands.
I guess he got one though.
Gary E.R.
Schwartz is a professor of Psychology, Medicine, Neurology, Psychiatry and Surgery.
That's a lot!
At the University of Arizona, Director of the UA Human Energy Systems Laboratory and Director of the Bioenergy Corps at the UA Pediatric Alternative Medicine Research Center.
He received his PhD in Clinical Psychology from Harvard University in 1971, was an Assistant Professor at Harvard for five years.
He was a Professor of Psychology and Psychiatry at Yale University Director of the Yale Psychophysiology Center and co-director of the Yale Behavioral Medicine Clinic.
Before moving to Arizona back in 1988, he has purchased more than, published more than 300 scientific papers, including six papers in the journal Science, very prestigious, co-edited 11 academic books and written The Living Energy Universe and a lot more.
But The Living Energy Universe is an interesting concept.
From the subatomic to the cosmic, from cells and ideas to souls and God, all dynamic systems have memory.
Using the tools of science, University of Arizona scientists Gary Schwartz and Linda Russak demonstrate that everything in the universe is alive, eternal, And evolving, that would include us, right?
Their new model of life, the Universal Living Memory Theory, is reconfiguring the scientific landscape.
Schwartz and Rusick usher the reader through new doorways to profound discoveries.
Here is stunning, but sober, emerging evidence that every idea ever thought, and every awareness ever generated, is even now contained in the universe as information or memory.
That consciousness survives death.
That God exists and is evolving.
Dr. Schwartz is no longer on the phone.
We're going to have to get him back on the phone again, I see.
So, I guess I can do that.
Let me do that.
In fact, as I speak to you, watch, I can do this as I speak to you, I think.
These things happen in live radio.
And with any luck at all, we'll have Dr. Schwartz with us in a moment.
In fact, let me do this.
And this, and Dr. Schwartz.
Hello.
Hi there, how are you?
Hi, this is Art.
It certainly is.
Nice to speak with you.
Good to speak with you as well.
I just read your whole bio and a little bit about the living energy universe, which I'm trying to grasp.
Okay.
So, let's see what we can do with this.
This is quite a theory you have in this book.
Explain it to me.
That everything has memory, basically, is it right?
That's correct.
Now there are two parts in order to explain this in simple language.
The first is the realization that information, as well as energy, Does not disappear when it goes out into space.
And as we describe in the book, I tell this story of me sitting out in Vancouver.
I don't know if you remember this, but where the light is coming off my body.
And I had this realization in the early 1980s when I was a professor at Yale and I was reading this book about modern physics.
And I was very confused about it.
I was in Vancouver, British Columbia at the time, and anyway, it was two o'clock in the morning, and I'm sitting out pondering the nature of light, and the moon is shining, and I'm standing new to the window, and I can see thousands of houses to the right that have lights on, and also thousands of houses to the left, and I'm way up on a penthouse.
And I realized that if I looked into those windows with a telescope, I could see what was happening in each of those.
Might not want to, but...
Right. Now that meant that each of the light from each of those windows was going to my window.
But then I realized that if I could see them, they could see me.
Right.
That meant that my light was going into each and one of their windows.
So the first thing I realized is, my God, my naked image is going into each of their windows.
Not only was it going into each of their windows, but it was also going into the millions of windows that were not
lit.
And then I had this experience, which is part of the foundation for recognizing that, first of all, information doesn't die.
And the realization I had was that not only was my light, and therefore everybody else's light, not just going into the windows, but what it was doing was going out into space.
And that one second after I had that experience, My naked image was 186,000 miles into space.
Well, I imagine if that's the first thing that some alien approaching the planet would do.
Right!
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
In fact, I tell the story that after I realized that I and everybody else was leaving an imprint of this information going out into space, and that once it was going out there was no way to get rid of it, I realized We had some kind of responsibility for the kind of energy and information we leave behind, and I immediately decided to lose weight.
I didn't think to put my clothing on, by the way!
But humor aside, the whole basis of astrophysics is the idea that information and energy in the universe, when it gets out of the vacuum of space, it continues and doesn't really lose much of any of its integrity.
That's why you can have Well, that's true, but that's in the vacuum of space.
Here on Earth, we have to contend with atmosphere that diffuses light.
Right, it diffuses light.
to, purportedly, to photons that have been around for 12 billion years.
Well, that's true, but that's in the vacuum of space.
Here on Earth, we have to contend with atmosphere that diffuses light.
Right, it diffuses light.
But the point I'm trying to make is that in the vacuum of space, energy and information
does not by itself degrade or disappear.
Thank you.
So that's the first point.
And then we'll get to what happens if the light is in fact contained or modified along the way, which is how it gets to the idea that this is not just dead information, but it is actually living information.
And that's the second part of the of the analysis.
But the first one we have to understand is that information and energy does not just simply, quote, disappear.
It may be revised along the way, but it does not end.
Otherwise, we couldn't have a science of astrophysics.
That's fact one.
Now, the second part, which is what makes the work exciting, is you take that idea and you combine it with the logic of how feedback works.
Now, what's feedback?
We take a microphone, for example, and plug it into an amplifier with a speaker.
And then we point the microphone toward the speaker, and what happens?
Well... Hey, you did that!
Well, I'm fast.
You're very fast.
I'm impressed.
That's feedback for you.
You know, it's funny.
I've told this story a number of times on radio and television, but no one demonstrated it.
Literally, by the time the words got out of my mouth.
This is a first.
By the way, welcome back to your show.
Oh, thank you.
So, now, the question is...
Where did that sound come from?
Okay?
We don't typically think about this, but where did that sound come from?
This was the early 1980s, and I was teaching a new course at Yale.
Well, it's a loop, right?
Feedback is a loop.
Feedback is a loop.
But the question is, how do you go from no sound to sound?
And I wanted to give the students a feeling for how this worked.
Now, I have to explain that Einstein was a hero of mine.
And you know how it was that he actually originally stumbled upon the theory of general relativity?
Sorry, I'm having a little trouble with my right ear right now.
How he stumbled upon the theory of relativity?
Here's how it happened.
He was actually a child.
And what he did was, he had a very vivid imagination, and he took a ride with a light beam.
He imagined himself being a photon, being a light beam, and he's now traveling in space at the speed of light.
And then what he did was he looked out at what he saw, and what he saw was not what he expected to see.
He was surprised.
And years later, when he became a physicist and learned the mathematics, he transformed that initial experience into the mathematics that led to general relativity.
Well, I said, I'm a child.
I'm going to try to do what, I mean, even though I was an adult, obviously.
Well, wait.
If he was going at the speed of light, traveling along at the speed of light, and looked out, what did he see that surprised him?
Well, what he saw was, he realized that traveling at the speed of light, for him, time slowed down.
Because for him, he couldn't imagine anything traveling faster than the speed of light.
That's right.
Time would slow down.
Exactly.
In fact, the stand stood still.
And he had this as an experience, because he realized that he couldn't see.
He couldn't see any faster than light itself traveled.
So therefore, he'd be traveling at the speed of light, but he wouldn't even know it.
Now, this is a kid, remember, who has this experience.
And what he saw was not what he expected to see.
Well, here's what I decided to do.
I was going to make believe I was Einstein.
I mean, it's early 1980s.
I was maybe 35 years old at the time.
And so what I decided to do is I was going to make believe I was an electron.
And I was going to travel around in a feedback loop.
So I was going to connect two components in what's called a resonating circuit.
So A is an electronic component with a wire that's attached to B. And then B vibrates and sends this information back to A. And then it goes around and around.
And what I did was I hitched a ride with the electron.
And as the electron went around this circuit, what I did was I wrote down what I saw.
So I took the ride once.
And when I got around, what I saw was not what I expected to see.
I took the ride a second time, and then I became, to tell you the truth, terrified.
What did you see?
What I saw was that as the electron, as I was an electron and I took this ride, here's what was happening.
It's very simple to take you through the ride.
The reader should, you know, the listener should take the ride with me.
We're going to go from A to B. Now, by the way, we can do that even talking back and forth with you and me over the airways.
I'm A and you're B. Here's what happens.
I speak, for example.
Now, the electrons pick up this information and they travel to you.
And the important thing to realize is that it takes time for something to travel from A to B. It's a finite period of time.
Even if it's fast, it takes time.
So at this time 2, what's happened is that what you're receiving is a history of what I sent you.
And by the way, if that information was not preserved, you would not be able to tell what I was saying.
You can't have communication without the information being preserved.
Correct.
Yes, of course.
So at time 2, what you're actually getting is the history of what I said at time 1.
Right.
Now, this hits you, and now what do you do?
You process this information.
And that takes time.
It's time for you to hear this and then you're going to do something with that information.
And the simplest thing that you could do is to repeat it and send it back to me.
So if I say, hello, you would then say, hello.
Yo.
Yo, right.
Actually, it was very good that you said yo.
Now here's why.
Because what comes out of you at time three, this was the deep insight, what comes out of you at time three is actually some combination of what I sent to you at time one Plus the state that you were in at time two.
So at time three, what's coming out is A1, B2.
That's a simple way to describe it.
That was my yo.
That was your yo, right.
Now your yo is going to come back to me.
It also takes time.
So at time four, here's the key point.
What am I responding to?
What I'm responding to is A1, B2.
In other words, what I'm responding to is a history of myself as perceived and revised by you.
So what comes out of me at time 5 is actually at time 5 is actually what we call A1, B2, A4.
It's actually some combination of the state that I was in at time 4 influenced by the state that I had been at time 1 as modified by you.
Now I'm going to send that back to you.
So here's the critical thing.
As long as you and I are connected in this feedback process and this information does not completely degrade, what's going to happen?
You're going to get an accumulation of information in this loop that is going to be continually revised through the process.
So what's actually stored in the system is the relationship between you and me.
You got it?
Yeah, I think so.
This is tougher than the Mayan calendar thing I just went through, but yes, I think I'm getting it.
But here's the simple way to explain this.
Let's get back to the sound with the microphone.
Let's put it back in plain English.
I can't do that again.
I may or can't handle it.
No, no, no.
Don't demonstrate it.
But when you point the microphone, here's what happens.
Initially, the speaker is making like a tiny little hum or there's a little bit of sound in the air.
The microphone picks it up and sends it to the speaker.
What the speaker does is it amplifies it just a tiny bit.
The amplified sound is then sent back out and sent to the microphone.
The microphone picks up the amplified sound, sends it back to the speaker, which amplifies it again, sending it back to the... It goes over and over and over.
It can be even more graphically demonstrated by taking a video camera and pointing it at the monitor that's running, and you'll see a million video cameras down to infinity.
Exactly.
In fact, we call that video systemic memory, and we have that on our website, www.livingenergyuniverse.com.
We do have a link up there for that.
The answer is exactly when you connect a feedback loop.
But you see, here's what we don't typically realize, that it takes time for that sound to grow.
And the growth process can be recognized if we slow the process down.
So by the way, with your video cameras, if any of your listeners have this, if they have any of the new digital cameras, they can actually play them in slow motion, record in slow motion.
And now what you can do is you can have a frame go by once per second, and you can actually see the creation of that systemic memory.
I understand.
In other words, you see the cameras cascading down the line.
Right.
Now that's if you have it set at the wide angle.
If what you do is you actually set it so the lens is slightly bigger, you'll see it cascading in an increased way.
And then if you start putting your hand and other things between the camera and the monitor, magic happens.
Because you start accumulating complex information.
That's how a feedback loop works.
And what I realized, quite unexpectedly, was that that logic applied to every feedback loop, regardless of the level in nature.
That's why we came to the conclusion that everything in the universe remembered.
All right, I want to talk about that.
Stay right there, we're at the bottom of the hour.
We'll be right back.
Actually, under the right conditions, particularly out here where I live, you can see for miles.
Look a thousand knees.
Yeah, I'll see if I can lose weight.
You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from February 8th, 2001.
Oh, yeah.
Oh yeah If you think that I don't know about the little tricks you
play I'll never see you in the library, you put me in my way
Well here's a pro tip for you You're gonna choke on a tooth.
You're gonna lose that smile because of a while.
I could see for miles and miles.
I could see for miles.
I care for the life of me Remember a Saturday
I know that's a let's see Just don't look out that window
In the course of a lifetime runs.
Over and over again.
But I wish I didn't cause hope now.
All this pain is on the way.
But the mother and child, me, you, her and I. It's only a motion away.
You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from February 8th, 2001.
You know, I always thought this song had some profound meaning, but I've been told by some who claim to know that it was nothing more than a breakfast the author of this song was eating.
Chicken and eggs.
And he was just about to mix the chicken with the eggs.
mother and child reunion.
Now we take you back to the night of February 8, 2001 on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Christ.
Hi.
Alright, well, I think I certainly understand the concept of feedback, and as you have demonstrated it here, where are we going with this in terms of...
This is how we can summarize it, and then we can have fun.
Once you've gone through the basic logic, it leads us to virtually every anomaly that's been reported in parapsychology and paraphysics, which is one of the most interesting implications of theory.
Okay, stay good and close to your phone for me.
Okay.
Here is the number one idea.
Feedback loops, as we said, apply to all systems.
And the system contains A and B. So A could be an electron and B could be a proton in an atom.
And therefore you will have feedback loops and hence what we call systemic memory or learning in atoms.
A could be hydrogen and B could be oxygen making a water molecule.
Therefore, water molecules can learn, which of course would explain homeopathy.
Just like Adam's learning would explain what's called psychometry in parapsychology, reading watches for example.
A could be one strand of DNA and B could be another strand of DNA, and therefore DNA itself could be learning.
A could be one neuron and B could be another neuron, two neurons, which would provide you with a neural feedback network, which is how the brain learns.
But A could also be one heart cell and B could be another heart cell.
And therefore, hearts could learn, which made predictions about organ transplants and personality changes.
A could be the heart itself, and B could be the brain, so you could have learning within the whole body.
A could be one person, and B could be another person.
Yeah, there's evidence of that.
I think we talked about that, the lady who had the transplant.
Exactly.
Well, there's actually evidence for all of this.
But just to finish the logic, A could be the earth, and B could be the sun.
Or A could be one galaxy and B could be another galaxy.
It doesn't matter.
Whatever level in nature, to the extent that they are engaged in a circulating feedback process, there would be some kind of storage of information and energy as the system unfolded.
Therefore, everything would be learning that had a feedback loop.
That was the big, big implication.
Now, just for the record, When this idea originally occurred to me in the early 1980s, I had three fundamental fears.
Fear number one was I didn't know if the logic was correct, and so I would have to write a paper.
But when I wrote a paper explaining the logic and people saw some of the implications, some of my colleagues at Yale would think that I had lost it, because I was now going to be sounding like a flake.
You know, from homeopathy to survival of consciousness after death and more were all predicted by the theory.
The second fear was that the theory might be wrong.
Now, in science, you know, we've been historically wrong.
You know, we used to think the Earth was flat.
We used to think the Sun revolved around the Earth.
I mean, you know, ideas in science are always changing.
And, you know, I love that fact.
That's part of the fun of being a scientist.
However, because this was such a big theory, it was a big mistake to make.
Right?
A huge mistake.
But here was the worst fear of all, the third fear.
And that is, what if the theory was actually correct?
Well, if the theory was correct, I was going to have to change virtually everything that I believed in.
So I did what any sane scientist would do.
I didn't tell a soul.
And I kept the theory secret for 13 years, until I met Linda Russak, who ultimately became the co-author of the book, and my spouse and co-conspirator in doing research and writing in this area.
And so you told her?
I told her.
Now, why did I tell her?
Here's the reason why.
I meet this woman in 1993 at a scientific meeting, a conservative scientific meeting.
Actually, at this meeting, and this is important to know, is that her father had been a distinguished cardiologist and he had recently died.
They were honoring her father with an endowed named lecture.
Linda and I started talking.
We shared very deep secrets with each other and I wanted to meet her again.
So I flew out a couple of weeks later from Tucson, Arizona to Boca Raton, Florida where she was living.
I was just coming in for an evening because I was flying to New York to a family celebration and then flying back to Boca so I could then go back to Tucson.
So we're talking and talking and at four o'clock in the morning she's driving me to a Florida airport for me to catch an early flight back so I can be in Do you think it's possible that my father is still alive?
Do you believe in the possibility of survival of conscience after death?
I said, essentially, excuse me?
No one ever asked me this question before.
She said, really?
I said, well, would it matter to you what I think?
And I said, well, why?
Why would it matter to you what I think?
And she said, well, because you're a serious scientist, and if you have a reason to think it's possible, you probably have a good reason.
So I said, well, to tell you the truth, many years ago when I'd been at Yale, I had stumbled upon this theory called systemic memory.
I said, although I hadn't told the logic to anyone, so I didn't know then if it was correct,
and of course I had never done any research in the area, so I didn't know if it really
was true, I said, but to tell you the truth, everything I know about physics and chemistry
and biology and psychology and so on would lead you to think the theory was plausible.
So she says, well, what's the theory?
You have to remember it's four o'clock in the morning.
I'm exhausted.
So I said, Linda, look, I'll tell you what.
I'll come back and visit you in another couple of weeks.
In the light of day, I'll tell you the whole theory from the very beginning, and then you
can come to your own conclusion.
So I flew back, and I tell her the theory.
We take a long walk.
Now obviously Linda's biased.
She said a father that she dearly loved.
She's looking for a scientific reason to believe that he's still here, and so she's going to obviously be predisposed to think that this is possible.
On the other hand, she was also her father's daughter.
I mean, Linda's father had published over 200 scientific papers, edited seven books in the field of cardiology.
I mean, they had done research together.
So she was, you know, trained to be skeptical like I was.
So she searched for a flaw in the logic, and she couldn't find one.
Well, I might have one.
Good.
Well, you'll give it to me in a second.
Let me just finish the argument.
Go ahead.
So, she says, Gary, she says, do you realize how important this is?
And I said, well, I realize some of the implications, but I'm really quite frightened of them.
She said, Gary, she says, you've got to help me.
We've got to test your theory and see if we can prove whether my father is still here.
Now, you've got to put yourself in my shoes.
You know, you're an established academic.
Sure.
Who's just been asked by a very special person To do research in an area that you know some of your colleagues are going to be very upset with.
In fact, now that our work has become fairly public, it's been on HBO and Arts & Entertainment and Dateline and so on and so forth, the way we like to put this is that some of my colleagues would prefer that we be doing this research somewhere else.
On the one hand, you're thinking Yale, Harvard, my career, everything that I've been so far.
On the other hand, you're thinking Great looking woman and my theory.
What do I do here?
Here's how we write it in the book, and this is very important.
What had happened to me was that I had fallen in love with Linda's love for her father.
I'm going to repeat this.
I had fallen in love with Linda's love for her father and her dream to know scientifically one way or another if he was still here.
So I looked into her eyes and I said, OK, Linda, I'll help you.
But only under one circumstance.
We don't tell anyone.
And actually, the way this work began was for the first couple of years, we began our research secretly, quietly, in Boca Raton, Florida.
And when the results continued to be positive, Linda moved to Tucson, and the rest, as they say, is history.
I'll get to that in a second.
What kind of results were you getting?
Well, we were starting to do research.
This is what Linda wanted to do.
She wanted to know whether there was a way, as we said, to prove whether her father was still here.
Since we were using this kind of systemic memory resonance kind of model, and since Linda had posited that it was possible that his energy Um, might not only be weak, obviously, because he was no longer in a physical body.
Right.
You know, like the light from distant stars.
Right.
But also, he might be in frequencies that we're not consciously aware of.
Right, again.
So one of the things that she did was she was interested in seeing whether or not the frequencies were in sound waves.
But sound waves that were either below or above, particularly above areas of human hearing.
Right.
So she purchased microphones.
That went down to 5 Hertz.
You know, the ear only hears about 20.
That's right.
And it went up to 100,000 Hertz.
And the ear typically hears 20,000.
The best ears do.
Yes.
And this was put into what was called a Hewlett Packard Spectrum Analyzer that did these kinds of analyses for the whole spectrum in real time.
So we were able to actually look and see what these microphones were picking up.
And then what Linda did, She would attempt to, for example, look at her father's picture and invite her father to try to communicate with her.
What we did was we recorded the sounds.
We also recorded brain waves and electrocardiograms and so on, but we were interested to see whether or not anything might be picked up.
Now, I must tell you that, to tell you the truth, in those days I thought all of this was crazy.
I thought it was just little nuts.
The problem was it was consistent with the theory, and so we started trying it.
And what happened was, just to make the long story short, is we began to see anomalous phenomena occurring that suggested that there was some sort of energetic pattern that would be coming in that we could not explain under normal circumstances.
Any particular frequency range?
Well, we were seeing it actually in the very highest frequencies.
I mean literally up in the The 90 to 100 kHz range.
However, I tilted all that data.
We did many experiments.
Remember, we were doing this on the side.
We had our regular careers, so this was on the side.
All these early studies did was suggest that something might be possible.
It wasn't really until we began our mediumship research that we began to get the kind of jaw-dropping findings.
All right, we'll get to those.
Let me try what I thought might have been a flaw.
Good.
You talked about systemic memory and of course the big question for all humans is whether what we understand to be consciousness continues or whether we're sort of an echo of ourselves forever spreading out into time as light would.
Right.
In other words, so are we sure?
I believe the energy continues.
Does it continue in a form that we would call consciousness?
That's a big question.
Big question.
In fact, when Linda and I, in 1993, when I took this walk with Linda, which was actually on the beach and I told her this theory, her number one question to me was, was my father's energy called dead?
Yes.
Just an echo.
Or was it actually as living and as conscious as he was?
Precisely.
And here's what the theory predicted.
What the theory predicted and predicts is that in the same way that our energy and information is contained within a structure which has cells and boundaries, which is what defines our body, and the reason that we The reason that we have energy and information that we don't just all diffuse into space is because we also have a locality, which is based on the boundary conditions and ways of maintaining this system.
What the theory predicted was that the history of our boundary conditions also was retained.
In other words, meaning that literally the cellular membrane And literally, even the skin that we have, all of that energy and information is as preserved as everything else.
So that which enabled us to have integrity and circulate as an internal feedback loop to begin with, does not disappear.
That's why, by the way, you could see my naked image in space, because it in fact maintained not just its static form, But all the structural components of what made it a form to begin with.
But you haven't explained to me, I don't think you have yet, how consciousness, as we understand it... Right.
So now the really, really big question... Yeah, that's the big one.
...is where does consciousness come from to begin with?
Now here's what I'm going to tell you what Linda said.
What Linda said was, is that the explanation of the origin of consciousness itself is, you know, one of the One of the truly great mysteries.
We could talk about this for hours.
But what the feedback loop does is that the feedback loop allows a system to be conscious of itself.
Because remember, what A is doing is receiving a history of itself as perceived and revised by B. That's what A is doing in the system.
So therefore, I become conscious of myself, in part, By sending my energy out and then having it come back reflected to me, that's what's called self-consciousness.
So I become aware of myself because there is a feedback loop.
Feedback creates self-awareness.
What we've said is that as long as the feedback loops remain intact, self-awareness remains intact.
You got it?
Yes, I think I do.
Wouldn't this be the way ultimately a machine or a computer would become self-aware?
Yes.
In fact, what feedback theory predicts is that everything has self-awareness.
From the tiniest to the most gigantic.
That everything has some kind of Self-awareness process, but depending upon the complexity of the system, obviously, what it is conscious of is going to be different.
But it's all going to have consciousness.
That's why the theory is so broad, because it says everything is eternal, alive, and evolving, which also means what?
Everything has self-awareness.
Now, let me understand the physical aspects of the experiment you did with her.
You were monitoring specifically What?
In what way?
You were monitoring high frequencies, but you... from sensors attached to... or sensing what?
Well, what we did was we had microphones.
Okay.
And in the case of the sound experiments, we had microphones.
One microphone, for example, would be pointed at the space between Linda and her father's picture.
Okay.
And another microphone, the control microphone, would be pointed, let's say, away from the two of them.
So you've got an active microphone picking up information.
Gotcha.
Between Linda and her father's picture.
Right.
And then you've got a control microphone that's just picking up quote background noise.
Uh huh.
And then what would happen is that Linda would invite her father to make his presence known.
Now of course what did this require?
This required the plausibility that her father was still there.
And that he could function, and we describe this in our scientific papers, as a, quote, departed, hypothesized co-investigator.
That's scientific jargon for saying that her dead father is working with us.
How, though, were you able to discern the fact that the energy that you were hearing wasn't coming from Linda?
The answer was, of course, that we couldn't.
This experiment did not enable us to disentangle what Linda was bringing to the situation from what her potentially father was bringing as well.
That's why we said we must do these kinds of experiments where the person is no longer in the loop.
We have to design equipment, for example, where microphones are placed in separate rooms.
Where a given person, let's say her father, could be invited to be in room A at one time and room B at another time.
And then you'd look to see whether you got the alterations in sound depending upon where the quote, spirit was present.
But what I need to share is that I consider this to be so controversial that I told Linda that I didn't see how we could do research in this area.
Remember, this is 1993, 1994.
We're doing these early studies.
I said we have to be able to do something that is much more informative about the reality of all this to begin with before I would feel comfortable about ever talking about any of this in public.
Well, actually, if you never had proven in any way that it was Linda's father, you still would be on to something very serious from a scientific point of view.
Oh, absolutely.
We've done research now in water and we've done research with cardiac transplant patients and so on and so forth, but since I was so nervous about all of this, I didn't really want to address any of it.
It was Linda's pushing me that said, Come on, Gary.
This is too important to ignore.
When people ask me why I started doing this work, I say, Well, I was pushed there by science, but I was pulled there by love.
Well, that I understand.
All right, Dr. Schwartz, hold on.
Stay right there.
We've reached a pretty interesting point here.
Now, if he had never gone any further and had never proven that it was a separate entity, as I just mentioned to him, he'd still be onto something really big.
Because what was the human mind doing that would produce spikes in a microphone, actual high-frequency spikes, much higher than we're able to hear, That you could record when thinking about such things, that alone would be a big scientific discovery.
But if in fact, it's actually led to the discovery of life on the other side, well, that's much bigger.
You're listening to ArcBell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from February 8, 2001.
The Coast to Coast AM concert, by the Seattle Symphony Orchestra, is a tribute to the late John Lewis.
The concert was held in the City of Seattle on February 8, 2001.
Hey! Hey!
Silver threads and golden needles, can I pin this heart of mine?
And I did not have the sorrow in the world worldwide.
But you think I should be happy with your money and your name.
And hide myself in sorrow while you play your cheatin' game You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier
Radio Networks.
You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM, from February 8, 2001.
Yes, indeed.
And if you're teaching at Harvard and Yale, and you have colleagues that are probably shaking their heads at you, you've got a lot to lose, potentially, in this kind of investigation.
But, on the other hand, What question can any of you out there think of that's more important than whether we continue?
Whether our consciousness continues?
I can't think of any more important questions, so we will press the good doctor when we come back from the break, and we'll find out how he was able to actually discern that there is a consciousness that continues.
It's an incredible field to follow and follow it we shall.
Now we take you back to the night of February 8th, 2001 on Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
Back now to Dr. Gary R. Schwartz, and we're talking about whether consciousness actually survives physical death.
That really is what it's all about.
And the early experiments with his wife Linda showing promise but not conclusive by any means with respect to whether you were actually seeing another consciousness or an extension of Linda's mind.
Something I think we know through lots of disciplines like remote viewing and other things that people seem to be able to do with their living minds.
Doctor?
Right.
Exactly.
Here's how our work with mediums began and what initially appointed us in the direction of saying, wow, there may be a real phenomenon here and that we can bring it into the laboratory and actually provide definitive data one way or another that the phenomenon that Linda's father is here and therefore potentially all of our fathers and mothers and so on are potentially with us.
Here's what happened.
I was in California and I was giving an invited address at the California Biofeedback Society, which is not important, but I was there and I was in the same city where a woman who I had learned about, a housewife from Irvine, California, her name is Lori Campbell, who by the way now has her own website.
It's www.loricampbell.net.
She's a very phenomenal medium.
I've never met a medium before, but I was told that I should meet this woman because she was interested in science.
By the way, most mediums are not interested in science.
They're helping grieving people, or they're being famous, or they're being frauds, but they're typically not interested in science.
So I went to meet this woman, and I went to be an observer.
I go to meet this woman, and she's going to read somebody else.
I walk in, and the first thing she says to me is, She says, your mother is here.
I said, I don't see my mother.
She says, well, I can see your mother.
She's deceased, right?
I said, yes.
She goes on to describe my mother.
She describes my mother to a tee.
Her size, her weight, her personality.
My mother is now giving me messages that I need to call my brother because she's concerned about his welfare, which turned out to be true.
I said, well, thank you very much, Laurie, but I'm really here to observe you as a As a scientist.
So she is now interacting with this other person and I'm watching how she works.
Then she comes back and says, your father is here.
Then she goes on to describe my father who is standing behind my mother.
He's also short.
He's a small man and he's very quiet.
She describes my father to a tee.
So now I start getting interested.
And I said, Laurie, can I ask you a question?
She said, yes.
I said, can you give me any information about a man named Henry?
Now, Henry was Linda's father's name.
And you know, purportedly, we have been doing research with Henry.
Right?
Yes.
But Laurie Campbell didn't know anything about Henry.
She didn't know my wife.
Right.
Well, all of a sudden, her voice changes and it's almost like she has tears in her eyes.
and she just comes overflowing with love, totally different from my mother and father
in terms of character.
She says, this man is telling me that he's been waiting to speak to us for years and
he's been following our research and he really loves his daughter and so on and so forth.
All of a sudden I'm now witnessing a third personality which is potentially like the
father-in-law I never met.
Doctor, what did this woman know about you before you met?
Well, you know, I'm going to get to this, because I had no idea.
You know, my immediate hypothesis was she got information ahead of time.
Obviously.
Right.
She went to the whip.
You know, she had a detective.
You know, I asked all these things.
You're going to see why all of this gets discounted in a minute.
I then say, okay, this is very interesting.
I said, well, let me ask you one other question, Laurie.
I said, can you tell me anything about a person by the name of William James?
Now, William James is a very distinguished, deceased scientist, who has been purportedly in communication with a woman named Susie Smith, who has just finished her 30th book called The Afterlife Codes, and has a website called www.afterlifecodes.com.
And Susie has been purportedly in communication with this dead scientist for 40-some odd years.
And you know, I couldn't believe any of this.
So I said, she said, so Laurie asked me, who's William James?
You have to remember, Laurie is a housewife.
She's from Irvine, California, uneducated.
She doesn't know any Harvard professors.
So I said, well, he's a friend of a friend.
Okay.
Well, all of a sudden, it was the first time I've ever witnessed what people sometimes call transmedianship.
Laurie was literally, quote, taken over.
She describes being at the turn of the century.
She's surrounded by all these books.
Everything's mostly in black and white.
She's wearing old clothing and she starts lecturing.
About the importance of the psychology of consciousness and consciousness surviving death.
It's so important that research in this area is going on and so on.
And by now, we have to understand, now I'm really bothered.
Sure, of course.
So here's what happens.
This is the take home message.
I call Linda.
I had to catch a plane to get back to Tucson.
Linda was not with me.
I said, Linda, I've just met this remarkable woman.
And I said, I don't know what to make of this.
I'm going to put her on the phone.
She doesn't know anything about you or your father.
Not that I've told her.
And I said, you talk to Lori, be very cautious and come to your own conclusion.
So I hand the phone to Lori, and Lori says to Linda, she says, Lori, she says, hi, my name is Lori, I want you to know your father is here, and your father wants me to tell you to thank you for the music.
Just those five words, thank you for the music.
I hear the words, thank you for the music.
What does that mean?
It doesn't mean anything to me.
Meanwhile, on the other end of the phone in Tucson, Linda is in tears.
Why?
Because when her father was dying, he was in an intensive care unit and he was on a ventilator and the doctors thought he was unconscious in a coma.
But Linda was convinced that he was somehow still aware.
So what she did was she brought in a tape recorder and pillow speaker and played special music for her father.
The only people who knew about that music was her mother, her sisters, a couple of nurses and a couple of doctors.
That's a jolt.
That was an absolute jolt.
Let me tell you something.
We have done now three years of research with Lori Campbell.
We have witnessed her do over a hundred readings.
There's only one time that Lori ever said to any sitter that we know of, your father is saying thank you for the music.
In other words, this is not just a line that she gives everybody.
No, I'm with you.
I'm with you.
That she throws out.
Right, I'm with you.
So it was at that moment that Linda and I said, wait a second.
This woman may be doing something that's extraordinary.
And if she's willing to come into a laboratory, maybe we can design experiments to actually prove whether or not Lori is getting information from a living conscious entity.
Well, you're already pretty far along that trail.
Absolutely.
But not in terms of what a scientist... I understand, yes.
Yeah, you understand that.
Sure.
But we were already, quote, left with, you know, data that cannot be disputed.
At least not disputed fairly.
And that's how it started.
Now, I'd be very happy to share with you some of the wonderful and playful experiments that we've done.
Sure.
By all means, please do.
Okay, well let me share you with you one that I think is absolutely delightful.
What I don't get is how you move from this very strong evidence that you have to scientific evidence.
How you move it into the field of science.
That's what I'm going to show you.
Okay.
Here's one of the first experiments that we did.
We've done many now.
This one is one of the more creative.
We have two mediums.
Medium 1 and Medium 2.
Medium 1 has never met Medium 2 and vice versa.
We know this from their phone records and so on.
Medium 1 is actually Susie Smith, who has been in a wheelchair for years.
She was at that time, I think, 86 years old.
Susie Smith claims that she's in communication with her deceased mother, whose name is Betty, with Professor William James from Harvard University, with Dr. Henry I. Russick, Linda's father, which we of course could never confirm, alone, before this research, and also purportedly with my father, Howard Schwartz.
Lori Campbell had already claimed That she received information from my mother, my father, Linda's father, and William James.
Right.
The question was, how could we prove that Lori was actually communicating with these people?
That's right.
So here's the experiment that came to us.
It turned out that Medium One, which was Susie, is a very good artist.
So we proposed the following experiment.
Susie would, first of all, in the privacy of her home in Tucson, invite these four people to serve as part of the hypothesized co-investigators.
By the way, obviously we have to take Susie's word for this.
So she proposably does it and says, yes, everybody wants to collaborate.
Step two.
In the privacy of her own home, what Susie does is she invites each of these four people to suggest a picture that Susie is going to draw for them.
So each of these people asks Susie to draw a picture.
Because remember, Susie is a medium.
So Susie draws these pictures.
One for each.
Of course, we do not know what they are.
We're totally blind to this, right?
Because Susie does this by herself.
In addition, Susie draws a control picture.
She draws a picture for herself.
Okay.
And this is a control for telepathy, or remote viewing, and it's to what extent can Lori get information about her picture.
Right.
Okay?
So she's got these five pictures.
They're put into an envelope, dated and sealed, okay?
Then, that's part one of the experiment.
Part two, Laurie Campbell is flown to Tucson, and in a separate building, she has not yet met Susie.
Laurie was medium two.
In two two-hour sessions, she is asked to contact each of the four departed hypothesized co-investigators, each of the four dead people, and her task is to attempt to see and describe Each of their respective pictures.
Because the task of the dead people is to try to show them, or tell her, what their pictures are.
Linda calls it from here to there and back again experiment.
Here is Susie, medium one, there to the dead people, and back again, medium two.
Now, in addition, Laurie's task is to guess what the control picture is.
Can she go to Susie's apartment in her mind, where she's never been, and see if she can get Susie's picture?
So she does two, two-hour sessions.
It's all videotaped.
And what we do, because, you know, Lori doesn't remember most of this.
She's sort of more or less in a trance.
What we do is we keep a record of the color and form information that Lori describes for the pictures.
Okay?
So now we've got all this information.
And of course, Linda and I have no idea whether Lori's gotten anything correct.
Right.
Because we've never seen the pictures.
Now, part three.
Medium one and medium two meet for the first time.
This is all, of course, videotaped.
There were three experiments.
Linda, myself, and also Dr. Donald Watson, the psychiatrist, who is the person who introduced us to Lori Campbell.
Here's what happens.
First of all, what Lori Campbell attempts to do, and also what we attempt to do, is based on what Susie does.
She opens the pictures in front of the cameras.
For the first time, we now see the five pictures, but we don't know which picture is associated with which person.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
So we're kept blind to that.
Sure.
But we see the pictures.
Now our task, first of all, is to see whether we can guess, just by our own intuitions and our own knowledge of the people, which picture we think was drawn by each person.
And by the way, the probability of guessing this by chance is going to be 1 in 5, or 20%.
Sure.
Right?
Okay.
Then part two, what we did, is that each of us independently used the color and form information provided by Lori during her mediumship sessions to see if we could guess which picture was drawn by which person.
Right.
Here was the data, and then I'll give you the details about why it supports the survival of consciousness hypothesis.
When we were trying to guess based on our own, quote, intuitions and hunches... You were the control group, right?
Well, all of us, actually.
We were the control group, but all four of us were actually in control when we were just using our guesses.
Okay.
As opposed to using what Lori had received during the meeting.
Right.
So during these, quote, control guesses, our average estimate, accuracy of guessing the pictures was 20%.
I got 20%, I think Don Watson got 20%, somebody else got 40%, and I think Linda got 0% or something like that.
It averaged out to 40%.
We have the numbers reported in the paper.
However, when we used the color and form information that had been obtained when When Laurie Medium 2 was connecting with the deceased people, each of us independently got 100% accuracy.
Oh my.
100% perfect.
Now this was disturbing.
Let me tell you why.
This is now when you get to the details where the data are so fascinating.
Let's take the control picture first.
When Laurie was attempting to get information about Susie's picture, here's what happens.
She starts describing an apartment which she's never been to.
She sees a couch.
She sees a chair.
She sees where Susie sits.
She sees a television.
She sees artwork on the walls.
And she describes, I would say, at least 90% accurately, Susie's apartment, a place she's never been to.
Remember, Laurie is very, quote, psychic.
So she's already showing she can do remote viewing.
When we ask her to describe the picture, she has no trouble.
Meaning, she sees a vase, a purple vase, green stems, Multiple shapes, and what she describes as, quote, a rainbow of colors.
Well, it turns out that there was only one picture that had a vase, a purple vase with a green stem, and literally all different shapes and sizes of flowers.
Literally a rainbow of colors, and that was, quote, Susie's picture.
Interestingly, she also got other information that was unanticipated.
For example, she says that she's shown where Susie lived as a child.
And that she's being shown a farmhouse.
It looked like a farmhouse to her that was white.
And in the backyard, there was a garden and a cow.
Well, Suzy later explained to us, she didn't live in a farmhouse, but it was light colored.
But in the backyard, there was a vegetable garden, and there also was a cow.
So obviously, Lori was getting information.
And of course, you could say, well, this is telepathic.
This is remote viewing.
So therefore, how do we jump from that to saying maybe the whole thing is telepathy?
So now we get to the part of what happens when she's talking to the dead people.
Well, when she attempts to talk to the dead people, here's what happens.
Lori is overwhelmed with emotion and information from the dead people.
For example, when she attempts to contact Linda's father, she receives All kinds of information about how much he loves his daughters, and he loves his wife, and so on and so forth.
And then at some point he says that he wants to tell Linda that he has been seeing his wife, Linda's mother, in her bedroom at night with the shades closed, still crying.
Those are seven years now after her father has died.
Nobody knows.
That her mother is still crying with the drapes closed.
So obviously, after the experiment, Linda called her mother to find out if this was true.
And her mother confessed that she was still doing this.
When Lori is getting all this personal information, she found it very hard to get information about the pictures.
She was so overwhelmed by the personal information and the dialogue, that it was very hard for her to get the pictures.
Unlike with Susie, where she got no dialogue, she just got, you know, She's just got pictures.
Well, it's this contemporary information that blows me away.
Right, that blows me away too.
Anyway, what she does see, and this is crazy, she sees a picture of Henry holding this green stem with a red large flower.
And she thinks that it might be a rose, but she can't tell.
So, it turns out there's only one picture.
of a single large red flower with a stem.
However, it was of a poinsettia, not of a rose.
And that turned out that that poinsettia and rose, the red poinsettia, was the picture that Susie drew for Henry.
However, Linda couldn't believe that her father would pick a poinsettia.
So he said, Susie, did my father ask you to draw a poinsettia?
Susie said, no.
So what did he ask?
Well, he asked me to draw a rose, which is what Laurie was seeing.
So Suzy said, well, why'd you draw a poinsettia?
And she said, well, I explained to your father that I can't draw roses very well.
They're hard for me.
But I know how to draw a poinsettia.
So he said it was okay.
Now, you know, you could take all of this with a grain of salt, or you could say, this is really interesting.
It is really interesting.
I'll go for that.
Dr. Schwartz, hold on, and we'll be right back to you.
Well, if you buy all of this, and you buy that there really is consciousness that survives death, and I strongly suspect that, then the next thing you have to wonder about is the nature of the other side.
I wonder if we know anything.
We'll be right back.
You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from February 8th, 2001.
This is a teaser for the upcoming episode of the series.
Let me show how much I love you, baby.
I don't mind and I don't lie.
Girl, I know there's no one but you.
You are the sun.
You are the rain that makes my moods foolish You need to know, I love you so
And I'd do it all again and again Whoa, whoa, whoa, yeah, yeah
Tell me if you can Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
Tonight's program originally aired February 8, 2001.
I'm Art Bell with Dr. Gary Schwartz, and we're talking about something pretty important to most of us, whether there's anything after all of this, and what his work would seem to indicate there is.
And if there is, then the next logical question, for me anyway, is What's it going to be like?
Curious?
What's it going to be like?
You've got to sort of establish a baseline first, and that's what we've done in terms of trying to prove to you that his research is valid.
But after that, you kind of want to know, well then, you know, what's coming?
Now we take you back to the night of February 8th, 2001, on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
Just like we do today, only they're going to be very prevalent.
That young children are going to be able to not have to discourage this capability, but actually they're going to be able to learn how to do it.
And not only that, if you're interested, you'll be able to purchase what a friend of ours calls a grandpa phone.
Like a cell phone.
Which will enable you to have instantaneous communication.
Dial up, if you would, to the other side.
Oh boy!
If not, actually have, and this is predicted by the systemic memory hypothesis, actually have technology to visualize.
The dynamic energy and information of our loved ones right in front of us.
And not only that, you ready for this?
10, 20 years from now, all of this we will take for granted.
That here and there are just two sides of the same coin.
That we're all going to take it for granted.
And most people would say, I can't imagine that.
And what I would say is, the people who can't imagine that are probably the same people who couldn't imagine airplanes 100 years ago.
Yeah, probably Sprint will be offering the other side for 25 cents a minute.
Big weekend plan.
Absolutely.
We'll pay for it.
Can you imagine how that would change everything in society if that really came true?
The answer is, I can imagine many aspects of it.
In fact, in a book that's now in the hands of an editor at a division of Simon & Schuster, a new book will be coming out As of the end of this year, the beginning of next year, we have a whole chapter of essentially, you know, why talk to dead people, or what are the implications of all of this?
And we lay out the implications for education, for business, for science, for everyday life.
What are some of them, as a matter of fact?
Well, there are tons of them.
Let me give you a couple of my favorites right off the top of my head.
Let's take marriage.
Okay.
Now, in the old days, there was only one kind of marriage.
It was until death did you part.
There was no divorce, right?
We stayed married.
That's what people did.
Whether you love your spouse or not, you didn't even pick your spouse.
You stayed married.
Then what happened is we created a new form of marriage, which is essentially a no-fault divorce, which really means we stay married so long as we're mutually caring for one another.
So we can be married weeks, months, years.
And if we grow and change, then we have new marriage.
Right.
So we've got two kinds of marriages, really.
We've got marriage of an indefinite period while we're physically alive, and the kind of till death do us part.
And by the way, Linda and I believe that it's silly for us to make these claims in our vow of till death do us part if we don't really mean that.
Let's just have two different forms.
But let's now imagine the possibility that we don't die.
We just lose our bodies.
Now the question is, does marriage end at physical death?
Right.
So what we say is, well maybe there are actually three levels of marriage.
And the third level of marriage, in the most extreme form, Linda calls them, quote, eternal relationships.
That it is possible to meet people and love people, and potentially have relationships that would continue far beyond what we can ever even imagine.
So you start thinking about relationships in a much deeper way.
than just the limited time frame on the earth.
And it changes literally the whole idea of marriage.
And that's just a trivial example, if you would.
So that you could imagine being with your partner forever or as we think of it, forever.
Eternally.
That's right.
Yes?
Exactly.
The only catch in that that I see is what about the lost love?
Let's say that we have a man and we have a woman, and their marriage exists for X number of years, and then the man moves on to a young cheerleader, but the woman remains desperately, eternally in love with that man who's now with a cheerleader.
Right.
It causes problems.
Well, here and there, probably.
Exactly!
In fact, Linda sees one of the deep implications.
of having to do therapy between here and there.
She calls it soul family therapy.
She sees therapy in the future literally taking place between here and there.
Not only are you doing therapy for people down here, but you're also literally doing therapy for the people who have died to finish or make amends for conflicts that existed when they were both in the physical so they can then make choices to move on in their lives.
Or move back together.
You see what I'm saying?
Because these problems are unavoidable.
They're unavoidable.
Let me give you another deep implication of all of this.
What the theory suggests is that the universe is indiscriminating about what kinds of energy and information is retained.
In other words, whether you're a good star or a bad star, your starlight continues.
Well, the theoretical implication, of course, is whether you have been a deeply loving person or whether you have been a pained, if not horrible person, your energy and information and consciousness continues.
Therefore, just as the Jesus Christs of the world are potentially still here, so are the Hitlers of the world.
Therefore, people's concern about negative spirits and And the continued dangers of what's happening becomes a very real possibility.
Very real, sure.
Now, let's consider implications for things like, quote, the death penalty.
That's an interesting one.
Sure.
I mean, what happens if, quote, the death penalty is not the ultimate punishment?
And what happens also if we also use that punishment procedure ineffectually and inaccurately?
Which, by the way, as you know, is what's happened.
Many innocent people have been inadvertently killed, even when the prosecutors knew that that was the case.
And the question is, if their souls continue after they've died, the problem hasn't, quote, ended.
And not only that, the implications are very deep for the fact that we will not escape what we do on the earth.
Which leads us to another whole area about what we talk about in the epilogue in our book, which is called Moving Toward Integrity Love.
The choice to be open is ours.
One of the things that we talk about in this book is that if it turns out that there really is survival of the conscious after death, and they can see things that we can't see, two things will happen.
Number one, if we lie and cheat on the earth, It's going to come back to haunt us.
Because not only is there going to be a record of it, but people are actually witnessing it as we're doing it.
So we may be getting it away with it down here, but we're going to have to face it later on.
Secondly, what happens if you can learn to connect with your deceased loved ones or your quote guides?
They may be able to inform you about who's lying and cheating to you at the time that they're actually doing it.
Well, if we could tell when we're on the earth by getting feedback from there, That we're being deceived.
What's going to happen?
We're going to ultimately be able to eliminate this integrity.
I wonder if action could be taken from the other side.
That's kind of an interesting question.
Let's make sure we get back to that.
We will get back to that.
Hold on.
We'll break right here and be right back.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
On this side, maybe that one too.
You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time, on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM, from February 8th, 2001.
Come on down, oh, I've got a message to convey.
What the people need is a way to make them smile.
What the people need is a way to make them proud.
It ain't so easy to do it in the house.
You gotta give a man's name.
I'm Dr. Dina Doe.
This is a production of the Center for Autism and Related Disorders.
No part of this recording may be reproduced without the support of a professional.
The Center for Autism and Related Disorders The Center for Autism and Related Disorders
You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from February 8th, 2001.
Good morning, everybody.
Don't forget, tomorrow night, predictions.
That which we didn't get to do between Christmas and the New Year, we're going to do tomorrow night, possibly on into the beginning of Monday as well.
So, if you would like to register your yearly prediction with the Bell Family List, which then is secreted into the Bell Family Vault, Until a year or sometimes even longer passes, tomorrow night will be your opportunity.
We'll review some of those done in the past as well.
That's all tomorrow night.
Back to Dr. Schwartz in a moment.
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Looking for the truth?
You'll find it on Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
It's obvious that the things that the Air Force has denied of the UFO phenomenon, there's a plan underfoot not to tell us anything.
Why do you think that is?
Look, they've been lying to us, not just on UFOs, they lie about everything.
Governments lie about everything.
In other words, the moment of disclosure, that's not the end of anything.
That is the beginning of an entirely new phase of the struggle for truth.
Now we take you back to the night of February 8th, 2001, on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
Andrea from San Diego on the Fast Blast asks, is there sex after death?
Ha ha ha ha!
And if not, what kind of lousy death is it?
What a great question.
Well, let me just tell you again what people claim.
First of all, the theory says everything is possible after death.
Okay?
Well, okay.
That covers everything then.
Right, that covers pretty much everything.
However, what we have heard reports about is literally people continuing to hug and kiss and beyond.
Really?
Even between here and there.
Really?
That's what we have heard.
You mean on the way?
I don't know what's all the way, but after someone died... Oh, I see.
You said, even between here and there, I thought you meant in transit.
No, no, no.
That I haven't heard.
Blows a mile in high club right away.
But seriously, these are stories that we've heard, and they're from very credible sources.
I'll give you an example.
There's a woman who we know, and this is the part that I find absolutely unbelievable, but it's true.
She has both an M.D.
and two Ph.D.s.
Very intelligent woman, obviously, and very sophisticated.
Her husband died, and she's a very open woman.
She started receiving what she believed to be communication from her deceased husband, who was also a physician.
And since she's been open to this, and she's, by the way, gone to mediums and under controlled circumstances and has received information that's confirmed this, at least they're telling her what she herself is experiencing, which is one way to get evidence.
She said that what she does with her husband, her parted husband, is not only does she talk to him to get advice and so on in her continued life, but also she will ask him to give her hugs.
She will ask him to kiss her.
Well, I'm not going to follow up on that at all.
No, I have not asked her about whether or not she has continued to have sex with her
husband.
I'm not that bold.
She has said that she literally feels his touch, experiences his interaction, and you
could say, well, that's just her fantasy, or maybe she's got a level of connection that
most of us don't have.
All right.
Well, I'm not going to follow up on that at all.
Instead, I'm going to ask you one more.
Sure.
If a person was, oh let us say, a pathological liar in life, would that follow in death?
Well the answer, again what the theory would predict, is the way that we've been in the past will be a continued predilection and propensity in the future.
Now the question is, to what extent can we overcome our habits of the past?
And the answer is, we should be able to overcome our That's right.
The theory of growth.
Exactly.
Growth is growth according to the theory.
I understand.
But it may well be that when you arrive there, you're lying your butt off.
Exactly.
In fact, one of the things that we therefore propose, one of the deep implications of both the theory and the implication for survival, is that now is the time to become open to it while we're still physically alive.
In fact, if we could educate young children that this was true, if it is true, Then they could live their lives in a much more open way, so they would not have to die and not even be aware that they're dead.
Or die and regret the fact that they didn't learn this stuff when they were here.
Alright, back to the phones.
Wells for the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Schwartz.
Hi.
Hi, this is Joy in Honolulu.
Hello.
Oh, it's blessed to have you back, Art.
Thank you.
We have kind of a great connection from years and years ago.
You don't know me, but I know you hail from Chester in Media, and that's where I come from.
Oh, that's right.
I lived in Media and was frequently in Chester.
Yeah.
Dr. Schwartz, I'm very interested in what you're saying because it's very close to home.
As a child, I consistently crossed over and still do, ever since I was two years old.
There was a traumatic situation and my grandmother passed away.
And everybody would say, okay, she's not here, but she was always there.
And even at age 11 when she told me that she had to go, she kind of left the door open and I was able to pass back and forth.
A lot of conflict with this.
Actually, what I have is a comment for you and then I have a technical question.
My parents had a lot of conflict with it.
My mother being Catholic, she wanted me to be a nun and my father being Baptist, he thought I was full of demons because I would have constant information.
I guess you're aware of the Monroe Institute?
Yes.
It's the one place where I could actually come to grips and understanding.
And when I attended the first program back in 1989, I realized that all of the things that you're saying, he actually put together in programs.
And you were saying about, what do we do about therapy for people that cross over?
That's actually addressed in Lifelines.
In any case, a lot of different things have occurred to me.
And I understand what you're saying because in actuality, I have constant Communication with them and they help me through daily events and they help me with decisions but as little things go on I always am saying well you know help me to decide on where I should go in the life and what I should be doing and ironically I'm in radiology in the field of MRI and different radiologic fields and I was just wanting to know I've noticed something technically that when I am actually in an MRI unit and you were talking about
Well, my group brought that subject to me long before I ever got into the mechanics of MRI.
And I started thinking, well, what do they mean about phased array and unphased array?
And then, of course, when I got to studying MRI, I recognized that it had a lot to do with magnetic forces.
Well, when I was in there with quite a few patients, I recognized that I could see Other beings.
Of course, you don't go around to your other tech saying, oh, guess what?
I see other people in here.
No, I wouldn't do that, but this is really interesting.
Do you realize the size of the electromagnetic field around an MRI machine?
Yeah, it's a... I had an MRI, and the technician said, you want to see something?
And he opened up the front of it, and he took a steel bar, and he turned on the machine and put the steel bar up against the electromagnet and said, try and pull it off.
No way.
Right.
The size of the electromagnetic field is monstrous.
Are you sharing with us... 1.5 in one Tesla field, you know?
And you're working with 42.58 megahertz that go along with the hydrogen.
I understand.
Yeah, so it's really fascinating.
Are you suggesting that you actually are able to We're going to be talking about all the science and survival of consciousness after death.
We're going to be talking about our research in the Human Energy Systems Laboratory.
We're going to have a medium present.
I'm going to be talking about all the science and survival of consciousness after death.
We're going to be talking about our research in the Human Energy Systems Laboratory.
We're going to have a medium present.
You can find out about it at the website, livingenergyuniverse.com.
If there is any way that you could potentially attend this workshop, we would love it because
we are deeply interested in the very phenomena that you are reporting.
And I would love our audience to hear about this, and also to show you what we're doing in the laboratory.
Because we've been recording 12 gigahertz signals coming off the body, and finding that the body actually generates very high frequency signals.
Yeah, and I can really truthfully say if anything was really helpful is the instruction that I got at Monroe Institute because it allowed me to sequence things and I actually got into MRI after that whole situation.
No, I understand.
But if you can possibly get there, man, please do.
That's absolutely remarkable.
I will not forget this.
That's really remarkable and not so surprising.
No, it's not.
Is your caller still here?
No, she's gone now.
She's gone now.
Can I just share with you one observation?
Yes, of course.
This is a very interesting claim.
It's been reported in a book written by a very distinguished professor from Stanford on human energy systems.
And it's the following claim, that when mediums are placed in what's called a Faraday cage, that's a cage that filters... Everything out.
Any electromagnetic energy.
No, it only filters out the electrical, but not the magnetic.
It filters out the electrical, but not the magnetic.
Well, electromagnetic energy, for example, in the form of a radio wave, would be filtered out.
Yeah, the electrical part, but not the magnetic part.
Let me repeat this.
Let me tell you the story, Art.
This is very important.
Go ahead.
You do not lose the magnetic fields.
For example, if you put a compass in the room, a compass will still point north, because it still picks up the Earth's magnetic field, even though the electrical wave has been eliminated.
Under those circumstances, the average medium It's as if the electrical waves are distracting.
Now you put people in what's called a mu-shielded room.
A mu-shielded room is where you have a shield that shields the magnetic signals, which is not what's happening with MRI.
MRI is actually integrating the signals, synchronizing them.
When you eliminate the magnetic signals, under those circumstances, the average medium is less able to pick up communication from the deceased,
implying that the communication is magnetic.
In nature, sure.
In nature.
Now why I'm sharing that is because that clicks with what your last caller said.
Sure.
That in the presence of an MRI that is producing a phase synchronization, which she says that
she's received from the other side, then under those circumstances she has greater experience.
And that's to me a very important observation that needs to be followed up.
Well, I hope she goes to the conference or gets in contact with you because that should be followed up on.
You know, while we're at it, since we're talking to so many people, I wonder if anybody else out there that works with MRI all the time has had any experiences they would like to relate.
Great.
Well, any other electromagnetic signals that relate to all of this?
Yeah, but MRI in particular because it's just a, it's almost a strong enough field I am an example of a multiple medium sitter.
Really gigantic.
That's right.
That's really interesting.
First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Dr.
Schwartz.
Hi.
Hello.
Hello.
Yeah, this is John from Los Angeles.
Hi, John.
Hi, John.
Glad to have you back, Art.
Thank you.
First time caller.
I am an example of a multiple medium sitter.
My wife and soulmate, who I consider my twin soul, which is another show, I think, passed
away from cancer in January of 2000.
We were very, very tight and already very open and well studied in spiritualism and
past lives and reincarnations and things like that.
So we had a lot of time to prepare for it and we made various agreements and pacts about attempted communications afterwards.
Oh really?
So that's the setup to this, right?
Okay.
So when she passed, from then until now, The amount of ADCs, as they call them, after death communications that I've been receiving are so prolific that it's almost like a normal way of life for me.
I just call them inter-dimensional communications and I now have an inter-dimensional relationship.
So I'm writing a book on this and that's another story.
But to corroborate this for my book, and I had never before been to a medium, but one night I was searching the web.
I'm a jazz musician and I was doing other things and all of a sudden I was on Amazon.com looking up some books and somehow there was an advertisement there for a very famous medium whose name is George Anderson.
He's one of the well-tested ones.
I've not seen George because he's very busy, but when the book flashed on the page I got this communication from my wife.
You should go see one of those because that will handle your own self-doubt.
This is a telepathic communication.
Then I started doing research on lots of mediums.
Within the last five to six months, I've seen six different ones who have corroborated almost literally every detail.
None of them know me.
None of them knew each other.
It was during a six-month period.
And the things that have happened were so amazing that I'm just flabbergasted at this because to me this is first-hand proof and I cannot explain it in any other way other than, you know, that one caller that said, how do you know it's an imposter?
Sure.
I mean, okay, that's about the only thing and even then I know my wife and so boy, if this is an imposter, This imposter is following my life and monitoring it because she is so accurate.
It's amazing.
Before you go away, by the way, could I just make a request?
Sure.
Please go to the website.
You'll find our phone number and email and so on.
If you're interested, please contact us.
What, through the website number?
The website is www.livingenergyuniverse.com.
We are always searching for people who, like yourself, have had these kinds of experiences and are then also validating them.
As you said, you're both a medium and a sitter.
You're also doing this scientifically.
By the way, I was also a jazz musician, so I appreciate music.
I still am!
Anyway, I feel blessed to be on this whole program and for Art to have invited me on this.
But for your comment, for example, to come through right now, it's very important that your book get written.
One of the things that's very interesting about our research is that we can provide scientific validation under even double-blind conditions.
That's why I did all these multiple sittings, because now after five of them, it's just Yeah, I'm taping them all and corroborating all the data and researching and aligning all the ones that are working and I'm flabbergasted.
As a matter of fact, I'm even flabbergasted that I'm on the phone because I've never called Art and even attempted and today I just had my last medium sitting which was Mind-blowing.
I knew I'd never go to sleep tonight, because it was so unbelievable.
And then, on the way back from my recording studio, I turned art shows on, and then, what is absolutely on, but you talking about it?
That's just too synchronous.
Isn't the universe wonderful?
It is synchronicity.
All right, thank you very much.
Doctor, let me ask you this.
You know, there are people like this gentleman, like the lady with the MRI.
People having these experiences, she said, I wouldn't even begin to tell another technician about any of this.
I wouldn't even speak about it.
How many people, mediums, professional mediums, and just people who can do the things these people are talking about, would, do you think, step out, step forward, and subject themselves to scientific scrutiny in trying to figure out what it is they're really doing?
Well, I would say this is an extreme minority.
But I think that there's a tremendous transformation that's taking place.
Let me give you an example of it.
There's another gentleman of all places in Los Angeles who had a very similar experience.
It wasn't his wife, it was a dear male friend.
He's a psychiatric social worker.
His name is George Dalzell and he also has a website.
He began to have mediumistic experiences and he went to mediums and it was corroborated and he's written the book.
By the way, Linda and I have written a forward for which provides evidential information.
He's now participated in our research and I find it very coincidental that within just a few months there are now two people from Los Angeles who seem to have these kinds of very unique experiences.
What I can share from my experience is that shows like yours, and yours in particular, and as people hear about our research they start Feeling more comfortable about sharing their experience?
Of course that would be true.
Sure, as we expose it.
Hold on, we're at the bottom of the hour.
We'll be right back.
Oh, I don't know.
You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from February 8th, 2001.
This is a video of a man who was in a car accident in the United States.
He was driving in a car and he was hit by a car.
He was in a car accident in the United States.
I just walked in to find you here with that bad look upon your face
I should have changed that stupid lock, I should have made you leave your key
If I'd have known for just one second you'd be back to bother me
Oh now go, walk out the door, just turn around now Cause you're not welcome anymore
Weren't you the one who tried to hurt me with your vines?
I think I'd crumble, I think I'd lay down and die Oh no not I, I will survive
Oh as long as I don't find love I know I'll stay alive I've got all my life to live, I've got all my love to give
I'll survive, I will survive Hey, hey
Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey It's a promise that I have not to fall apart
You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks
Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM, from February 8, 2001.
Maybe we will survive.
I don't know.
I hope so.
I hope there's something else, and I'm sure most of you do too, and that's what we're talking about with Dr. Schwartz.
We'll get right back to you.
Now we take you back to the night of February 8, 2001, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Now we take you back to the night of February 8, 2001, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
you you
Doctor, welcome back.
We've got a full line of people who would like to ask you a question.
It's been a very interesting time with the callers, hasn't it?
It's been wonderful.
Just by the way, before we begin, one of the thoughts that occurred to me is that you've never done a show where we've talked about the whole energy systems approach and all the science about measuring electromagnetic signals from the body and all of its implications for healing and the like.
No, we have not.
And if you'd like to do that, focusing on those kinds of things rather than these topics, it would be very nice to continue the conversation.
By all means, yes indeed.
All right, here we go.
What's to the Rockies?
You're on the air with Dr. Schwartz.
Hi, this is Ed in Honolulu.
Hello, Ed.
Great show tonight.
Thank you.
Welcome back, Mr. Bell and Dr. Schwartz.
Earlier today in the program you were talking about how Einstein was imagining himself as
a beam of light and that you imagined yourself to be in a feedback loop.
I was trying to imagine what it would be like for myself to be a spirit on the other side.
So I was thinking, would I be able to both see the past, present and future?
If I were able to do that, then could I not also observe myself?
Uh, yeah.
In the present, from the other side, and that if I were able to do that, then that might give some insight into how we actually look at our existence, that we actually exist on the other side all the time, and we exist only on this side temporarily, and that during the out of body experience, like if I Have a near death experience.
What really happens is that when my body dies, what's left is the part that's always there on the spirit side observing myself.
And that when I actually return to my body, I don't actually follow through on the complete death.
Then my consciousness is no longer aware of myself on the other side.
But again, the consciousness Well, let me first of all tell you that it's extremely creative.
I've not heard anything like that before.
Secondly, I have to comment to you and to Art that this has been a most illuminating show.
Your audience are asking absolutely wonderful questions.
Yes, they really are.
Third, I think that what you say is also conceptually plausible.
And the implications to me are just that I'm sitting here trying to catch my breath because I think that you may be right.
I'd encourage you, by the way, to continue to take this imaginary trip and to write some notes about it because I think you may have stumbled on something that's very meaningful.
I, by the way, myself try to imagine what it's like to be a deceased spirit, but I've always imagined myself As an observer of others as opposed to looking back at myself, which is what you've proposed, and I think it's very fascinating.
You know, you mentioned also heaven and hell, and I was thinking hell might be, and it kind of relates to karma, hell might be having to observe myself.
It might be actually, somebody sent, thank you, a message, a Fast Class message about hell and said, you know, if there was open communications with our Sprint 25 cents a minute or whatever, to the other side, who would want to hear about all the negatives of hell?
That's right.
I would.
I mean, I would.
If somebody were to describe to me the hell they were living in, or existing in, or eternally spending time in, I would very much like to hear that.
I'd like to know, wouldn't you?
Yes, but you're a very open-minded person, Art, and you have a very inquisitive mind.
Uh, perhaps.
Perhaps too inquisitive.
First on the caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Schwarz.
Hi.
Hello.
Hello.
Hi, this is Emily in California.
Okay.
Well, I have two things that sort of relate to each other.
I kind of wanted to ask about it.
Five years ago, I had a child.
And when I gave birth to her, I started to lose a lot of blood.
And they had to rush doctors in, and I was dying.
I was losing a lot of blood.
And what I did was, I felt myself dissipating and rising up.
And I was very indifferent about the situation.
You'd think that you'd be scared or something like that.
I was really indifferent about it, but before I felt that way, I checked.
I don't remember saying this, but the people in the room said that I said, I'm filling up the room.
I felt myself just expanding.
I checked and looked at my daughter, and she was in my mother's arms.
That's what I had to do before I felt like I could take off and go where I had to go.
I had to check that everything was the way it was supposed to be.
Then they saved me, obviously.
And since then, it seems like there's things that have happened in my life that have just put me in these positions that I wouldn't normally be in, to take some physics courses and learn about the nature of the universe.
And in this physics course I took, the only waves that we really didn't focus on were sound waves, because they were so different than the photons or the Energy from light and I Something just keeps pressing in my mind that there's that the sound has something to do with That like we're missing that sound waves have to do are the key and also I'll find myself Like it I was one time I was jogging out in the trails and I went a wrong way and I got completely lost and it was getting darker and I really didn't know where I was and
And I stopped and sort of started to panic, and I turned and went this other way, and then I stopped again, and then a voice told me, trust yourself, you're going the right way.
But it was talking to me, it was this really kind, caring voice that said, trust yourself, little one, you're on the right path.
And before I knew it, I was where I knew where I was, I was in the right place.
And then just today, I ran into somebody in a hallway who was, Working on computers and I just all of a sudden, I just asked him, you know, do you think that all the computing and the more we enter like a ubiquitous era of computing, do you think it's going to change our frequencies, all this electric magnetic field?
Do you think it's going to change our frequencies to how we conceive things mentally?
And I was just wondering if there was something that I, I mean, I just feel myself like increasingly approaching the ability to just break through
seeing all kinds of things and I was wondering if there was something I could do to
fine-tune that. Enhance that, alright?
Doctor? Well, a prior caller mentioned what's called the Monroe Institute.
Yes. And they have a formal training program.
Well, I'm well aware I interviewed Robert Monroe before he passed on.
Did you really?
Yes.
Well, Linda and I know a person by the name of Bruce Mowens very well, and Bruce Mowens has a website.
He's also written at least three books on traveling to the afterlife.
He's an engineer by training, scientifically oriented, and he's very interested in helping people develop their capacity to relate to the kinds of things that your caller is relating to.
And I would say that that's certainly one avenue to pursue.
All right.
Very good.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Dr. Schwartz.
Good morning.
Good morning, Art.
Hi.
This is Joy.
I'm in Santa Cruz.
I'm listening to you over at the Internet.
Okay.
And first of all, I want to say this is an incredibly beautiful show.
Thank you.
And so good to have you back.
Anyway, I have a question for Dr. Schwartz.
You've been talking about the concept of everything being conscious at one level or the other, right?
Right.
Now I have been in my own life following the path that the planet herself is a conscious being and that we are all part of her consciousness.
Okay.
And that when we start to coalesce in consciousness, when we start to realize Yes.
that we are all part of this consciousness that it can kind of kick start us into a better
place of being.
This is also something related a lot to what you have said Art in that part of the quickening
is also part of the consciousness expanding.
Yes.
What I would like to find out is if Gary has actually thought about how to kick start all
of us into a more heightened consciousness within ourselves.
I look at it from ourselves to our bodies, the ecosystems around us to the very planet
herself in terms of opening ourselves to consciousness expansion.
We are all part of this overall evolution.
Right.
I believe that, and I believe that's how I can feel the things I do about what's happening out there.
I think I'm not unusual in that.
I think any fairly sensitive person can.
Paul, you have been a really incredible person in trying to take that message up.
I was just wondering what Gary thought about it, too.
Sure.
In the epilogue to our book, which is called Moving Toward Integrity Love, the choice to be open is ours.
And I think the key phrase in all of this is being open.
Yogi Berra, who's a sort of a great philosopher, has this wonderful phrase.
He says, if I hadn't believed it, I wouldn't have seen it.
Yeah.
Which is, of course, backwards in the way we're typically taught it.
But I think that that's profoundly important.
I mean, in the case of science, for example, if you don't believe in something that's possible, you won't try it, or you won't find it in the data.
You have to be willing to discover it.
Now, what happens if we take this to its logical extreme and say that we're, so to speak, blinded by what we've been taught?
It's very much constrained us.
And if we could entertain thoughts that would open us, it could be that the breakthrough is absolutely, quote, natural.
Yes.
It's a really natural process.
Yes, I agree with that.
And what we need to do, in part, is to reinforce each other.
Now, again, being the, quote, hard-headed scientist part, What Linda and I are proposing in this conference that's coming up is what we call evidence-based spirituality.
It's not science versus spirituality.
It's science in the service of spirituality.
Right.
Right.
Exactly right.
All right.
East of the Rockies.
You're on the air with Dr. Schwartz.
Good morning.
Good morning, Art.
Good morning, Dr. Schwartz.
Hi.
My name is Brian.
I'm in St.
Louis, and I'm a first-time caller.
All right.
My question is regarding the idea of continuing consciousness.
People who claim to have past life regression experiences.
How does that fit in?
Is life an internal cycle where you go through periods of out of body and in the body, continuing life?
How do you feel?
Let me say first of all what the theory predicts.
First of all, the theory absolutely requires the possibility of reincarnation.
It absolutely requires it because the energy and information is there and therefore it can return.
However, the theory also makes some revisions or suggestions for alternative ways to think about reincarnation.
And here's what was typically taught, that what happens is our energy and information is somehow returned to a new body, as if all of it is put in there.
However, what physics tells us is that our energy and information is constantly expanding into space, and it's virtually impossible to gather all of that and squeeze it back in.
So it may be the case that it's not an either or, but it may be an and.
It may be the case that we can, quote, seed and return like eggs and sperms, so to speak, but that still we can also maintain our original integral consciousness in a continuing form.
In other words, it may not be either or, but it may be and.
Now let me give you a second interesting complication of the theory.
Okay.
When we do past life regressions, for example, And people have experiences and they have good memories and they feel very strong.
The question is, and I consider this really a very interesting question, is how do we know when we have such an experience whether that memory is really, quote, our memory or what we're doing is we're just deeply resonating with somebody else's memory?
That would be the next question.
Right.
And let me tell you, the answer to that question is I don't have an answer to that question.
Right.
Right now I have to make that discrimination.
And I think it's, again, one of those great questions that we have to look to for the future.
Well, the reason I was coming to this was I had heard someone once before, I believe on Coast to Coast AM last summer, when Art wasn't there, say something to the effect that they believed that people were born, sometimes, memories from their prior lives and that they would have dreams about this and that's when they would get into past regression.
And the reason that this kind of touched a chord with me was that I remember when I was very, very young having these strange nightmares where I was repeatedly, very vividly watching myself from the point of view of an older man falling to my death.
And the idea that, gee, is that just some kind of leftover memory from a prior life?
Now you're saying that it could be a resonance from someone else.
That makes sense.
That's why I keep this question.
I hear what you're saying.
I mean, I don't have an answer to your question.
I guess what I'm trying to do is to add more complication to your question.
Right, but you're giving some good ideas.
Right, it goes central to the whole question about your research.
It's just like that giant question about your research.
That final question, isn't it?
Absolutely.
By the way, although you haven't mentioned it, I know in your program that you sometimes talk about what are called, quote, UFOs.
Sure.
And one of the things that's really been novel that's emerged lately, in fact, it may have come on when your former host raised the question, was a question about, well, is it possible to reinterpret what we experience as UFOs?
And one of the ideas that has come to Linda and I is the possibility about what happens if there are deceased individuals from other planets?
The advantage of being, quote, deceased is that physicality is no longer a constraint.
It's much easier to travel across the universe and carry with you all your knowledge and information.
If you're not in a physical body, then if you are in a physical body... But it would be... the communication would be so far out of our frame of reference that we would regard that probably, with our life experience, as some sort of evil entity.
That's right.
But what would happen if what we're actually witnessing is the re-physicalization of previously, quote, deceased individuals.
So they're not, quote, traveling across in-spaceships.
Oh, my.
You know?
One more.
West of the Rockies.
You're on the air with Dr. Schwartz.
Hello.
Good morning, Art.
Good morning.
Good morning, Doctor.
My name's Leonard, and I'm calling from Ina and Thorney, Thorneydale area.
Okay.
Doctor, you had answered part of my question about UFOs, but how about cross-species too?
They are animals.
Or pets.
Oh boy, that's a wonderful, wonderful question.
It sure is.
It sure is.
We are deeply interested in the question of, quote, pets and pet souls.
And in our research, by the way, we've repeatedly found that mediums very accurately get information about deceased animals.
That's number one.
Number two, deceased animals seem to really hang around with their departed, with their living loved ones.
They seem to be loyal and deaf like they have been in life.
Thirdly, mediums are very good at often discriminating types of breeds and types of animals and so on.
And then, of course, the fourth thing is what happens if you've got animals from other generations or even from other planets?
It all becomes extremely interesting.
There's a veterinarian, by the way.
In Connecticut, who has developed a deep interest in actually looking at the deceased animal relationships with other diseased animals as well as people who are living.
Wow.
And we think it's also one of those great areas for the future.
To other animals, that's really reaching.
What can you do?
I mean, you just gotta follow the logic where it takes you.
No, if the center of your theory is true, then it's absolutely logical.
But it's pretty wild, just to consider.
It's terribly wild.
Well, it sure has been fun having you on the program.
And, you know, it's a lot of food for thought.
And I've thought a lot about this, believe me.
And it shows right here in my waist.
Doctor, it's been great.
We'll have you on again.
You want to give out your website one more time, although we've got it linked, folks.
If you go to www.artbill.com, it's right there.
Doctor, go ahead.
Sure.
It's www.livingenergyuniverse.com.
And we look forward to hearing from people, because that's what it's all about.
It's sharing and teaching each other.
All right, my friend.
Have a good night, and thank you for being here.
Thank you.
Take care.
Some really, really interesting calls.
I really liked the MRI call, and that one's going to keep me thinking for a while as well.
All right, tomorrow night, open lines all the way.
We're going to do predictions and review the predictions, at least as many as I can, of last year.
Or this year.
Previous year, actually.
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