Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool

All Episodes

Previous Next

March 30, 2000 - Art Bell

03:16:33

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Ingo Swann - Remote Viewing

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Time	Text
	From the high desert and the great American southwest, where we have a slight break in
	the wind before they come again.
	And oh my, it has been windy in the desert, I'll tell you.
	I bid you good morning.
	Actually, from the Hawaiian and Tahitian Islands in the west, eastward, to the Caribbean and the U.S.
	Virgin Islands south, to the Antarctic north, to the pole, and worldwide on the Internet, this is Coast to Coast AM.
	And coming up in a moment, the big switch.
	Peter Gersten, in cooperation with Richard C. Hoagland, have switch nights.
	And in a moment, Peter Gersten will be with us.
	Kind of a last-minute switcherino, folks, because Peter has news.
	Richard will also have news, but it can hold till tomorrow night.
	Now, as you know, Peter Gersten has been Locked horns with our Department of Defense in court in front of a judge.
	And the judge has rendered a verdict.
	In a moment, you'll hear all about it.
	And now... The G.I.
	should be taking odds.
	Anyway, after that, in the next hour, is the father, or the great-grandfather of remote
	viewing, the man who began it all, Ingo Swann, a fellow I've wanted to interview for years.
	That will be next hour.
	Just two very quick items.
	It looks like we've got an erupting volcano in Japan.
	Mount Usu volcano erupted Friday spewing The normal hot rock gas and a plume of ash and smoke over the snowy countryside of Japan's northernmost main island.
	No immediate reports of anybody injured.
	They got out of the way.
	Experts monitoring seismic activity had predicted this and had already evacuated 11,000 residents.
	Kaboom!
	And then really the only other thing in the news that lingers on endlessly Is the Ilion Gonzalez thing.
	And actually the way it's going right now with the father wanting to bring himself and a whole bunch of others here to the States to get Ilion and take him back to Cuba.
	This is going to go on so long that eventually Ilion is going to turn 18.
	And then he'll be able to make up his own mind.
	I mean every day it's the top of the news.
	Fight this, fight that.
	Just goes on and on and on and on.
	Eventually he'll be of age and make up his own mind.
	In the meantime, our nation only has one UFO attorney that I know of.
	His name is Peter Gersten and he has news for you tonight.
	You know he's been locked, well actually he submitted an FOIA request Looking for information on triangles that many of us have seen and know to be in our skies, without any question whatsoever.
	The DOD supposedly did a search.
	Peter didn't think they searched hard enough.
	The judge seemed interested in the case.
	And there was a ruling that the DOD would go back and, I don't know, do something or another.
	And the ruling, the final ruling from the judge, was issued today.
	And Peter got it.
	And it's probably how many pages long, Peter?
	Good evening, Arthur.
	How are you?
	I'm alright.
	It's eight pages long.
	First of all, let me thank Richard for giving me this opportunity of discussing the case this evening rather than next week.
	Well, you're hot news.
	Well, what the judge did basically is he granted the U.S.
	Attorney's motion for summary judgment and dismissed the lawsuit.
	Really?
	He did.
	It's interesting.
	It's actually disappointing, but not surprising.
	It's not like it wasn't expected when we talked about this last week.
	Yeah, you did predict this would occur.
	Now, it's too bad it's not two days from now.
	Why?
	Because that would be April 1st, April Fool's Day.
	I see.
	And then we would think it's a judicial sense of humor rather than a joke on us, a joke on our right to know.
	A joke on the Freedom of Information Act and the spirit of the Freedom of Information Act.
	I think it's a sad reflection on the founders back in the early 70s of an act that was supposed to give us access to information contained within the government agencies.
	Initially, at least they would admit they had UFO information and withhold it on national security grounds.
	But now, due to the sophisticated computers we have, they no longer have to even admit that they have information.
	I've got a question for you, Peter.
	If all of this, if you and I time-traveled, and we went back in time, and there was such a thing as the Freedom of Information Act, toward the middle of, or the last part of the Second World War, and Peter Gersten had acquired A couple of key names that he was real suspicious about, like Manhattan Project, Atomic Bomb.
	And you submitted something like that to find out what the hell was going on.
	What do you think you would have received?
	Well, it would have been interesting because there was an atomic bomb, there was a Manhattan Project.
	We were asking for specific information containing within those projects.
	So I don't know.
	I would assume they would have done what they did in the 70s and 80s.
	Admit they had information and withhold it on national security grounds.
	And every court that I've argued in front of has polled that decision and not questioned it.
	So I was surprised they did not do that in this case.
	Well, Peter, they didn't even tell Harry Truman about it until he got to be president.
	I mean, you know.
	You were talking about the spirit of the Freedom of Information Act.
	That's why I asked that question.
	How far, how spirited is it really?
	In other words, there are limitations to it when it meets up with U.S.
	national security needs, I would presume.
	Well definitely, but built into the Freedom of Information Act are certain exemptions.
	I think about eight to twelve of them, one of which is national security.
	So if they're playing fair, I would think they would have admitted Having the information, no matter what I specifically asked for.
	Did you say playing fair?
	Yeah, playing fair.
	Is that a presumption?
	An unfair assumption?
	Well, it's an assumption as usually shown on a chalkboard by a teacher, you know, with regard to what assumptions do to you.
	Well, in this particular case, there's no question that the Department of Defense has information.
	There's no question the Joint Chiefs of Staff uh... has information on a need to know basis that they
	have a responsibility for
	they have to be even admit they have responsibility for providing security
	and gathering intelligence so they have to know about this object
	uh... just so they they do not do anything reckless Of course they have to know about it.
	If they don't know about it, they're idiots, and we're all in danger because they can't protect us.
	I saw one go over my head.
	I know what it is.
	So it's there.
	It's really amazing, but it's only a temporary setback.
	But let me talk about what the judge found.
	In his eight pages, he devoted several pages to a discussion, and I just want to talk about two points, one of which applies to you, of course.
	And that involves the 33 affidavits.
	And he found, and I'm reading from his decision, even if the court were to accept the plaintiff's arguments that the affidavits conclusively establish the existence of a unique aerial object, this does not demonstrate that reports on the object are in defendant's possession.
	Therefore, the existence of the 33 affidavits does not create substantial doubt as to the reasonableness You're going to have to read that again.
	There were 33 affidavits.
	Right.
	And please tell me what he said about them again.
	I'm sorry.
	That just did not... Well, it doesn't make sense.
	It's like, duh.
	Okay, even if the court were to accept plaintiff's arguments that the affidavits conclusively establish the existence of a unique aerial object.
	Which is to say they do not accept that fact.
	No, actually he has to accept that fact.
	But he said even if.
	Even if they accept that.
	Even if the court believes that this object exists as evidenced by the affidavits, the court goes on to state that this, the existence of the object, does not demonstrate That reports on the object are in the defendant's possession.
	What the hell does that mean?
	It's ridiculous.
	Of course the reports of the existence were in your possession.
	That's what the damn affidavits are.
	No, in the defendant's possession.
	In the department's possession.
	Oh, in the DOD's?
	In other words, you didn't give them the documents?
	No, no, no.
	In other words, information about the object.
	Simply because I established that there is such an object out there, Does not establish that the Department of Defense has information about it.
	It certainly establishes that if they don't, they're idiots.
	Well, that is true, and it establishes that you have to.
	In other words, this is not something that's only being tested over Area 51 or at altitudes no one can detect.
	Or satellite detection that we don't know about.
	This is something that is being seen in populated areas over the last 20 years by thousands of people.
	Here, if it's not the U.S.
	government, I mean, if it is the U.S.
	government, and they're flying, as you pointed out, over populated areas, which they certainly are, then, you know, you don't do that with secret big Anti-gravitic type craft.
	If you're the U.S.
	government, if you want to fight to keep a secret, it just doesn't make sense, so there's only one other option.
	And they should know about that, too.
	You know, I've gotten emails that says, well, maybe it's not the Department of Defense.
	Maybe there's another agency higher up that all the information is directed to, and the Department of Defense doesn't have any or doesn't retain any, and it's just filtered upward.
	Yeah, that'd be the DOT.
	D.O.T.
	or D.O.E.?
	No, D.O.T.
	D.O.T.?
	Department of Triangles.
	In other words, maybe you just don't know the right agency to go to.
	I like that.
	Department of Triangle.
	I want to lose in charge of that department.
	Well, if you knew that name, they'd have to kill you.
	The bottom line is the Joint Chiefs of Staff have to have information, even Periphery, on a need-to-know basis, just so they don't do anything foolish in regard to these triangles, just so they know not to scramble jets every single time they're observed, detected on satellites.
	You know, we're talking about, I guess there are five in the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and there's the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
	You mean to tell me that they don't have information within the Joint Chiefs of Staff?
	I'm sure every person That has some type of responsibility within the Department of Defense for Intelligence and Security is aware of this object.
	This could have helped identify it, so I didn't use the correct word.
	Now, you mean to tell me that unless you know the exact identifier, the exact keyword, the exact project name, the exact password, that's the only way you're going to get information from the... Well, yeah, but as I said earlier, even knowing Manhattan or atomic bomb, Would not have yielded you a damn thing.
	I promise you they would not have told you, spirit of or not, anything about the atomic bomb prior to its...
	First ignition.
	I agree.
	Prior to?
	I agree.
	Probably not even subsequently for a long period of time.
	Right.
	Here, here.
	Okay, now, you remember that they provided, Department of Defense provided me with the extra search terms, the identifiers and the keywords, and I objected to the use of the word flying saucer and UFO and alien craft and spacecraft?
	Yes.
	Well, and that's what I responded in my papers last week, and the judge Indicates that, and this is a quote, by including extra search terms in the computer index query, and by excluding the specific eyewitness accounts, sketches, and time and place restrictions in the electronic mail message, Defendant has broadened the parameters of its search.
	Defendant's search included the search terms Plaintiff requested.
	If any responsive records existed, they more likely would have been identified in the expanded parameter search than the more limited parameter search argued for by the plaintiff.
	So in translation, the judge is saying they went really farther than they had to to complete what he thinks of as a reasonable search, right?
	That's what he's saying, even though we have no idea of how the search is performed within the Department of Defense.
	So he felt that the use of spacecraft, alien craft, and even flying saucer helped the Department of Defense provide me with the materials I wanted.
	Now, are you telling me just For grins here, that the Department of Defense has no information on flying saucers whatsoever?
	Well, they're not saying that.
	The law doesn't require them to do an exhaustive search.
	The law only requires them to do a reasonable search.
	And I assume based on the court's decision, a reasonable search is only a search conducted using my That's true.
	They added ones on that, in my opinion, did not help me at all.
	Well, that brings up a good point.
	pointed out they added those on that's true they added one time that in my opinion did not
	help me at all will probably not but the still in all they should have
	found something on flying saucer well that
	that brings up a good point before we get into the judges conclusion let me
	just mention that what i am a what what what i will be doing next week
	is calling uh...
	the individuals within the department of defense that provided the affidavit
	And now that the lawsuit is over, I can call them directly.
	I would be calling McBride and Dunn and asking them for the various responses to the 200 emails and to the search.
	Now McBride and Dunn would be the law firm representing the DOD?
	No.
	McBride is, I believe, in charge of the FOIA section within the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Dunn is in charge of the DARPA section.
	Sounds like a law firm, sorry.
	Yeah, you're right, it does.
	So in any event, I'm going to call them and ask them for the responses, which were never provided to me, because according to their affidavits brought in Dunn's, nothing similar or consistent with my request was found.
	But now that we know they used a UFO, identified flying object, Flying Saucer, AlienCraft, and SpaceCraft, I want to see what responses were had because of those search terms.
	Even though they might not have been responsive to the triangle, I'm sure they're informative, and I want to see.
	So if they'll provide them voluntarily, I won't have to bring another FOIA request.
	Plus, I want to see any responses to the email sent to the 200 DARPA employees.
	If only to see if the employees took it seriously.
	Now, there's a possibility that if they do provide those, that some of the responses might indicate a lack of seriousness on the part of the employees, and then I can go back to the court and say, look, there isn't evidence of bad faith, and this is it, and try to reopen the case.
	In the eight pages rendered to you by the court, was there anything that even gave you the slightest hint That the judge might leave an opening for you to come back and re-enlighten him?
	Only if I can show bad faith.
	If somehow I can get these responses to the emails, or the responses to the computerized search, and in fact there is some information on the triangle, or if in fact it shows bad faith on the agency's part, then I can reopen it.
	But like any type of case, criminal, civil, I need newly discovered evidence in order to open this case.
	Now, there was a conclusion on the part of the court, and the conclusion is interesting in two respects.
	The first is, basically, the judge says, this case is not won over the existence or non-existence of UFOs, but whether the government has conducted a reasonable search regarding information on specific aerial modes of transportation.
	Now, I've never heard that expression, aerial modes of transportation.
	Maybe I should use that as a keyword.
	A fruitless search result is immaterial if defendant can establish that it conducted a search reasonably calculated to uncover all relevant documents.
	What if the damn thing's run by remote control?
	Then it's not a mode of transportation.
	Or it's a life form.
	Or it's a life... or any of the above, right.
	Why did he feel it necessary to put I don't know.
	I've never heard any of these things described.
	Aerial modes of transportation.
	Maybe he's trying to tell us something.
	I don't know.
	I don't know what that means.
	I don't know who came up.
	AMTs.
	I've never heard that expression before.
	AMT, aerial modes of transportation.
	Aerial modes of transportation.
	Maybe... Maybe it's not even a mode of transportation.
	Well, that was my point.
	Maybe it's not.
	Well, that was a self-serving term.
	They didn't search for documents relating to aerial modes of transportation.
	So unless it's some kind of hint, I think it's just gratuitous.
	Interesting.
	Peter, hold on.
	Bottom of the hour, we'll be right back.
	Peter Gersten, our nation's only UFO attorney, is here.
	And we'll delve into this a little further.
	The spirit of FOIA.
	I like that, the spirit.
	I wonder what the spirit of FOIA really is.
	i'm art though it will be i can't survive, i can't stay alive without your love
	at morning, noon and fall you did surrender, oh yeah and i have left my destiny in quite a deal of ways
	and in the record of my shell and your soul, it should be there
	one of you, i have defeated once before one of you, promise to love me forevermore
	Wanna take a ride?
	Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	8255 East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach our vet area code 775-727-1222 or call the wildcard line
	To talk with Art on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	Indeed it is.
	Good morning, everybody.
	Peter Gersten is my guest, and we're talking about the Summary dismissal of the case that Peter had trying to find out about triangles with regard to what the Department of Defense might or might not know.
	in a moment we'll get back to that and we'll try to find what we mean by a search
	music music
	alright back now to Peter Gersten Peter, are you there?
	I am here.
	Okay, hold it, hold it.
	You know, search is an interesting thing.
	No doubt the Department of Defense does their search, just like we all do our search, on the Internet, on computers.
	No doubt a safe assumption, wouldn't you think?
	I really don't know.
	Oh, well, the government invented the Internet, so you just know that's how they search.
	One of our favorite people is here, Peter.
	Scotty, he would be called, by Richard.
	My esteemed webmaster of many a year, Keith Rowland.
	Keith knows about searches.
	Don't you, Keith?
	I've done a few.
	You've done a few.
	So, what are your comments on the way it was rendered?
	Well, I think it was sabotaged either way it went.
	Let me explain.
	When you do a computerized search, such as the one that was done at the Joint Chiefs Department, They did a computerized index search, and when you list a bunch of terms that you want to do a search for, you generally have to know whether the search is going to be doing an AND or an OR inclusiveness.
	In other words, you list a bunch of terms.
	Do you want documents that contain all of those terms, or do you want documents that have any one of the terms?
	Do you understand the difference there?
	I surely do, yes.
	Chance you say, I want a document that contains all of these words and you put in a couple of words, you're going to get documents that have both words in them.
	If you put in 10 words, then the document has to have all 10 words in order for you to list it.
	On the other hand, if you say, I want to just do an or search and you give it three words, It'll give you a list of documents that has any one of the three.
	If just the first word's in it, you'll get it.
	The second word's in it, you'll get it.
	So if they wanted to, if I've got this right, if they wanted to sabotage the inquiry, they would include all of the terms Peter had, and as a matter of fact, remember now, they included yet more terms.
	They threw them in sort of as an afterthought.
	Exactly.
	So if it was doing an AND search, which means it had to have all of these words, The more words they put into it, the less chance you would get a response.
	Sure, if you put Art Bell in, you'll get a million.
	If you put Art Bell, Slinky, Tokyo, and Amsterdam, you probably won't get a return.
	You would not get a single thing, exactly.
	And people have done this on the Internet, they know what I'm talking about.
	You put in too much information, you say, I want pages that have all of this on it, you'll get little if nothing.
	Now, let's say that they did an OR operation, which means they're looking for anything that has any of these words in it.
	That means they're telling you that they don't have any documents that have the word sound in it.
	Or size.
	Or corner.
	Or red.
	I think that's just basically an out and out lie.
	So in other words, Peter, that's how they screwed you.
	Well, they're not saying they didn't surface any documents with red or corner or lodge or football field in it.
	What they're saying is that none of the responses were consistent with what I was looking for.
	So that's why I'm going to ask for the responses.
	But that's based on their opinion, and you have no documents to prove otherwise, right?
	Right.
	That's why I'm putting in either voluntarily having them supply me with the responses pursuant to this search, Vis-a-vis the emails and the keywords, or I'll just put in another FOIA request for those responses.
	But they didn't give you a specific manner of the parameters, how they actually did the search, as Keith just explained, did they?
	Right, they gave us no response as to how many documents came up that had any of these words into it.
	And did somebody sit down and review thousands of these documents to see if it met that criteria?
	That's an excellent point.
	And that's the argument I made To try to convince the judge that all the keywords and identifies did was confuse the issue and did not shed any additional light on whether the search was reasonable.
	But for whatever reason, the judge did not ask the Department of Defense to supply them with the method of the search.
	And in fact, what he said in his decision would seem to indicate that there Additional words such as UFO and spacecraft and flying saucer and alien craft actually expanded the parameters of the search and was to my benefit.
	And I don't understand that reasoning at all.
	Well, that's what I was debating here.
	I don't think that was proper to do that.
	I don't think it really did help us.
	Yeah, it would have hurt.
	Keith, thank you so much for explaining that.
	Such a good point.
	Yeah, sure.
	Talk to you later.
	Good night, Keith.
	Take care.
	Bye.
	So that was really good.
	He's absolutely correct.
	That's probably how they got you.
	And it's interesting, because that could be the main appealable issue.
	In order to appeal this, I have to show that the judge abused his discretion.
	Well, did you ask the judge whether he has a computer?
	No, we didn't get to that point.
	And whether he's on the internet?
	No.
	In other words, the judge might not understand a search, as he explained it.
	Now, you have to understand that this is the chief United States district court judge in Phoenix, the number one man.
	You would think that if he believed He had insufficient information to make that determination, which he did when he directed them to supply me with the identifiers and keywords.
	He would ask for the additional information, but it would be in a sense that I would also be supplied with that.
	But for some reason, maybe as prior experience with the Department of Defense's search and other cases, he found it's almost like he took judicial notice of the way the Department of Defense does its search.
	And assume that by adding these words, they were helping me, and I don't understand that reasoning at all, under either theory.
	And hopefully, when I put in another request for the responses, no matter what the subject is, whether they put in a response to read and got thousands of documents, or they put in a response to AlienCraft and got some documents, but because the AlienCraft wasn't triangular, they didn't give me that information.
	So I think that we're not finished with the Department of Defense yet.
	Why is it within their purview to modify the FOIA request to include more than you asked for?
	Why is it within their purview to do that?
	Why don't they just have to answer as asked?
	My point is that I want them to expand the purview.
	I wanted them to... Unless it's set up the way Keith just said, and then they have added those to ensure that nothing's going to come... that you're not going to get a return.
	Well, you have to remember, you have to take a step back and remember one thing.
	The judge, in a summary judgment motion, must view the affidavits that I submitted, the 33 affidavits, in the light most favorable to the plaintiff, to me, to cause Um, and once he does that, he could find the affidavits, establish the existence of the object, and basically that's what he said.
	Well, not quite, he said.
	Well, no, even if... He assumed, for argument's sake, that the affidavits, and he has to find most favorable, he has to assume the object exists, but he left the door open by saying simply because the object exists doesn't mean the Department of Defense has information.
	But my argument is just the opposite.
	Once you establish the objects exist, then logic and common sense dictate that based upon the performance characteristics of this object, the DOD must have info.
	But it's a catch-22.
	With regard to what Keith just said, that would be the basis, it seems to me, for an appeal.
	In other words, they helped you, and it's kind of like the spirit of, here I am from the government to help.
	They helped you so much that you got no response at all.
	Okay, but that's probably for the reason that there's a Catch-22 built in.
	Because, alright, Peter, you're arguing that the object exists.
	You're arguing that it has certain specific performance characteristics which are futuristic in context.
	Wouldn't that be highly classified, no matter what its origin or identity?
	Yes.
	And that a reasonable search would not surface any information that is this highly classified?
	Unless you know specific passwords and code words and identifiers.
	And even then.
	And even then, right.
	So it's obvious that the Department of Defense, unless they're going an extra mile, is going to provide me with any information.
	But I was thinking maybe at least, you know, somebody reported that they saw the object to the DOD.
	Yeah, well they took you down the green mile is what they did.
	Right.
	And now, I'm telling you Peter, Damn it, appeal!
	Well, the appeal takes money, and it takes time, and there's different priorities now.
	And in order for me to file an appeal and follow through with it, and that's a definite argument in California, then it takes support.
	And unless my membership and your listeners are behind that, there's really no reason to appeal.
	Because the only reason I do these things is for my constituency, for my membership, for my subscribers.
	And if they're not interested in me filing an appeal and supporting that, then there are other things that I can find to do, such as NASA, and that's going to be one of the... NASA?
	Yeah, that's going to be one of the primary focuses of my attention in the next few months.
	Is it now?
	What exactly...
	Are you interested in?
	Well, there's several areas of interest.
	My primary focus initially will be the re-imaging of Sedonia, since we have that opportunity with Voyager.
	Coming up again and again.
	Again and again.
	So I don't think we should pass up that opportunity.
	So I think we're going to put together, with Richard's help and a few others, a petition drive.
	And get thousands and thousands of signatures.
	We're going to do an email-in-fax-demand type of letter to NASA, and if they do not respond accordingly and favorably, I think we're going to go into court with a writ of mandamus.
	We'll find a way to do that.
	A writ of mandamus?
	Directing that they do the imaging based on some constitutional or some kind of U.S.
	Code theory.
	Wow.
	based on their charter and and uh... the uh... welfare and the information that
	this brings the benefit humankind mankind whatever our species i think
	it's that critical that they do that it's not like we're asking that they send something up
	there and of course the millions of dollars take photographs
	the uh... the why not just another f all i a request
	uh... indicating knows
	lips Ears. Eyes.
	That's right.
	You're in a rad mood tonight, Arthur.
	Comma Mars.
	Comma, right.
	Department of Mars.
	D-O-M.
	Department of Mars.
	The Department of the Faith of Mars.
	D-O-M.
	Department of Mars.
	Listen, alright, so really you do need the support.
	I always want to get a plug in for you.
	You have a free email, I don't know, newsletter or teaser or daily information bulletin that you send out to anybody who wants it.
	It's free of charge.
	All you have to do is go over to Peter's website and ask for it.
	It will appear then in your email box every day.
	Right, Peter?
	That is correct, my friend.
	And so to get that, what do they do?
	They go to your website, which is listed, of course, online.
	And they can do one of two things.
	they can access it by going to your website www.artbell.com or they can go directly to
	the CAUSE website at www.caus.org.
	That's caus.org.
	Or if they are processor challenged, They can write and they can get a copy of a newsletter for a very minimal cost which supports all the good work you do.
	That's correct.
	We publish a monthly newsletter with the highlights of the daily emails and that's called cause and effect and we have to charge $20 for 12 issues for that and they can either obtain that and or obtain the transcript of the February 7th proceedings Also, by going either to the website or writing to C-A-U-S-8-6-2-4-EAST-SAN-S-A-N-BRUNO-B-R-U-N-O-DRIVE-SCOTTSDALE-ARIZONA-85258.
	You always have to do that twice.
	By the time people have got a pencil, which is about now, you should do it again.
	Okay, it's C-A-U-S-8-6-2-4-EAST-SAN-S-A-N-BRUNO-B-R-U-N-O-DRIVE-SCOTTSDALE-ARIZONA-85258.
	San, S-A-N, Bruno, B-R-U-N-O, Drive, Scottsdale, Arizona, 85258.
	The monthly newsletter is $20, and if they would like a signed autographed copy of the transcript from the actual court hearing on February 7th, that's for a donation of $25, and they can either go online or send us a check to that address.
	All right, and all of that goes to support Maybe an appeal, maybe the attempt to get NASA to re-image Cydonia, that sort of thing.
	Yeah, definitely, and further FOIA requests, because basically now I'm going to be collecting identifiers and keywords from my subscribers and anybody else that wants to send me information, and then we're going to be using those keywords and identifiers to pursue further requests and, if necessary, lawsuits.
	May I ask you a question?
	Of course.
	What level of security, you know, in the top secret to whatever is above top secret, would cut off completely any response to an FOIA request?
	Do we know that?
	Well, probably not that high of a security classification, because I doubt very much that these FOIA people that do the searches have a high security clearance.
	So if they don't, then they don't have access to whatever code words and passwords they need.
	Basically, that's why they just look at whatever the request is and break it up into words and put those words in.
	They don't try to help the requester at all by going outside of the request and maybe asking some people, like, what's this about?
	Did you ever hear of this?
	And so forth and so on.
	Where should I look?
	That's not happening.
	So then really it ought to be called Freedom of Some Information Request.
	That's right.
	Freedom of Non-Important Information or Non-Classified Information.
	Or information they decide they suddenly want somebody to know and use that FOIA request as a way to get that information out looking like Mr. Clean as they do it.
	It's really... So you almost have to sit there and hope, you know, they want us, they want to tell about this now, and so they'll use this as a door to do that.
	Or at least have some specific keyword that will access something that at least they will come back and say, we have information, but you're not getting it.
	National security.
	So you can't even get through the first threshold.
	In the 70s, when they first enacted the Freedom of Information Act, You know, the agencies would meet the time deadlines, you know, 15, 20, 30 days, whatever the deadlines were.
	Now you have to wait a year to get your request answered, and longer than that for an appeal, let alone to get into court.
	And then once you get into court, they just submit affidavits saying they did a reasonable search.
	And nobody really challenges that.
	The judge could have made law in this case in saying that because of the nature of this object, It just defies logic that the Department of Defense would not have information.
	Go search again.
	All right.
	Listen, my friend, thank you for the report, the news.
	I'm sorry it didn't come out better, but there's always tomorrow, particularly if people help you out.
	Peter, thank you, and good night, my friend.
	Good night, Arthur.
	Listen, go to my website at www.rfl.com.
	Jump over to the Cause website and sign up for the daily A news flash that will come to you for free.
	It's quite a deal.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	Coast to Coast AM.
	Coast to Coast AM.
	From the kingdom of Nye, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio
	Networks.
	Well, coming up is a guy I've wanted to interview for years and years.
	He is the father, or maybe the great-grandfather, the guy who originated remote viewing in Goswami.
	I've been waiting for this one, coming up shortly.
	Good morning, everybody.
	Ingo Swann, straight ahead.
	the good morning everybody engel swan straight ahead don't
	touch that dot everybody that i have talked to from all of the remote
	viewers that i have interviewed and i believe that of the government program
	those who speak publicly i've interviewed all
	to astronauts to everybody that you talk to
	uh... when the name engel swan is mentioned uh... usually it's followed by
	the greatest natural psychic A natural psychic.
	He is the great-grandfather, or the father of, depending on how he wants it promoted, of remote viewing, the program that ran for 20 years with the U.S.
	government, we shockingly found out one night on Ted Koppel.
	That was shocking, wasn't it?
	And then, of course, many of those members of the military remote viewing program went into the private sector.
	What can I tell you about Ingo?
	An awful lot.
	Too much.
	Uh, 55 to 58.
	Enlisted in the U.S.
	Army.
	Served in Korea.
	Was Secretary of Aid on the staff of General Lye D. White, then Commander in Chief of all forces in the Pacific.
	Up through 1969, employed under permanent contract, get this, at the Secretariat of the United Nations, New York, holding several clerical and administrative positions.
	1972-58-72 undertook research projects of personal interest, particularly the occult, parapsychological fields, astrology, numerology, auras, It goes on and on and on and on.
	Just every field that we talk about on this program.
	There are three pages of this.
	His work in parapsychological laboratories.
	It really goes on and on and on.
	I would never in a million years have enough time to tell you about everything Ingo Swann has done.
	In 1989, he retired from active research And public appearances.
	So this is fairly rare, what we're going to get to do tonight.
	Ladies and gentlemen, from Manhattan, I suspect.
	New York, anyway.
	Here's Ingo Swan.
	Ingo.
	Hello.
	Hello there.
	It is such an honor to talk to you.
	Well, I never know how to respond to that, but it's an honor to talk to you, too.
	I have spoken, of course, with so many of your students.
	Would that be the way to put it?
	Well, former students, I guess.
	Disciples?
	No, I don't encourage that at all.
	Take me back in your life, Ingo.
	What I said at the beginning about the other remote viewers I've had on, even astronauts, people who would mention your name, have billed you as, in their opinion, the greatest natural psychic born.
	Well, you know, people say things and I don't think I'm the greatest natural psychic born but, you know, people are people and they say things and then this rumor gets going and so forth and so on.
	I don't even like to be called a psychic to begin with and earlier on in my career I tried my best to... Intuitive?
	I've always been interested in perception and expanding perception.
	I'd like to be called a perception researcher, but in common parlance you have just one or two categories that you can put people in.
	Let me put it this way.
	The gentleman who were in the Military Remote Viewing Program maintained to the person That virtually almost anybody could be trained to do remote viewing, but they put you in a different category from those people in the sense that you had the greatest natural walk-in ability they ever observed.
	Is that fair?
	Well, perhaps.
	Perhaps, huh?
	I mean, I've seen other people that have great abilities, too.
	Well, anyhow, there it is.
	What can I do about it?
	I don't really see why I should be singled out for that kind of type of thing because nobody ever gets anything done by themselves so you have to work with people.
	There have been other great psychics that really impressed me like the famous Harold Sherman who is now gone, of course.
	And even Hella Hammett, who worked with us in California.
	So maybe I'm one among a few, but I'm certainly... Well, anyhow, can we move beyond this?
	We can by asking, since they call you, would you be the father or the great-grandfather of remote viewing?
	Which would be fair?
	I think Dr. Puthoff, Dr. Harold Puthoff, deserves that title, because without him, And his wonderful talents, their remote viewing would never have seen the light of day.
	It was he who had all of the contacts in Washington and in the military, and it was he who had the patience with people, including me, and also the diplomacy to negotiate all of the egos that get in the way of getting anything done, you know.
	And I will say absolutely that without his interest, His long-term interest in it that this remote viewing would never, never have seen the light of day.
	How did Hal Puthoff get on to you?
	I'm sorry, I'm choking up on this because I admire Puthoff so much, you know.
	Earlier on when I was working here in New York with Cleve Baxter, I'm sure you've heard of him.
	Of course.
	The plant guy.
	Yes, of course.
	We were talking about the speed that these perceptions take place with.
	They are really fast most of the time.
	I was saying, you know, who understands this kind of thing?
	So he mentioned Dr. Harold Putnam, whom I had never heard of, who was a physicist interested
	in tachyon theories.
	So I eventually wrote him a letter and he called up right away and was interested because
	he had made a proposal to find new ways of looking at information transference amongst
	people and things.
	It just turned out that my letter sort of fell into that category, so that's how this began.
	He was working at SRI, the Stanford Research Institute, and eventually invited me out there Well, Stanford Research Institute was at that time called the nation's second largest think tank.
	And the scientists there, actually SRI itself didn't really fund much research, but it invited top notch researchers in.
	and gave them rooms and typewriters to work with and things like that, but they had to go out and get their own money and their own projects.
	Puthoff was trying to get people interested in the properties of mind to develop it beyond the static potentials and so forth and so on.
	He's the one who had the contacts in Washington and things and eventually attracted attention So, somebody finally came and knocked on the door from the government and said, this is interesting, we'd like to explore the possibilities of some sort of program for intelligence gathering purposes, something like that?
	Well, it's a bit more complicated than that.
	People forget now that back then there was a Cold War going on, and these guys that came knocking at the door had Much to their embarrassment found out that the Soviet Union was conducting research in these areas which took everybody by surprise because we have to remember back in 1972 that the conventional scientific systems of the world did not believe in this and so this was a big shock so they were they were actually jumping around trying to find somebody who could
	Educate them on these matters.
	So in other words, you've got to keep up with the Ivanovs.
	Well, you had to find out something about what they were doing.
	Sure.
	And it just happened that I had, the experiments I'd worked with, with Dr. Gertrude Schmeidler and Cleve Baxter had made sort of headlines back at that time and put off had the access to the Washingtonians.
	So it, you know, it just all fell together much to my surprise.
	At that point, what were you able to demonstrate for Hal Puthoff?
	When he studied you, or when you allowed yourself to be studied, what conclusions did they come to?
	The mandate at that time was to find any ability that could be replicated.
	That means reproduced time and again in a laboratory.
	This is the one thing that was missing from historical parapsychology.
	And in New York, I had worked with Dr. Gertrude Schmeidler on PK, that's psychokinesis, and with Cleve Baxter on PK.
	So, when Hal invited me to Stanford, we fiddled around with PK.
	How so?
	Well, we did things in the laboratory and things, you know, standard things, but he managed to, the problem of The P.K.
	was, of course, you had to show that the person doing the P.K.
	was completely shielded from the target.
	If there was any way that there could be any influencing, you know, underhand trick or anything, then that is something that needed to be considered.
	So, he managed to get the quark detector at Stanford University available.
	The what detector?
	Well, it was an instrument.
	At that time it was designed to try to detect quarks, which are some kind of cosmic particle that goes through everything.
	So the quark detector at Stanford University was buried in cement and aluminum casing in the floor.
	And so there was no way that there could be, you could say, The perpetrator of the PK could have had any contact with the machinery.
	Of course, the quark detector by its nature, because quarks are still, I think, almost undetectable, or they're still searching for quarks, aren't they?
	No, I think they think they've found them.
	They think they've found them.
	But nevertheless, this instrument would be highly, highly sensitive, obviously.
	Well, I walked into the place and I said, well, where's the detector?
	I wasn't told anything, you know.
	And so they looked at me, There were about nine people there and they said, you're standing on it.
	And I would look down at this cement floor and everything.
	So I said, well, gosh.
	So I drew it.
	I used my visualization and everything.
	And I said, well, I have to try and locate it down there somehow.
	So I did my little magic on locating it and I started drawing it.
	And when I was in the process of drawing it, it stopped dead in its tracks.
	It stopped.
	It stopped.
	Yes, this had been running, and it was a nice sine wave going up and down.
	It had been running for, I don't know, months and months and months.
	So then, if I have this straight, the drawing of it would be what we perceive as remote viewing.
	The stopping of it would be what is psychokinesis, the ability to affect something.
	Well, I didn't mean to stop it.
	It just stopped.
	It just was somehow, if you can say it, My brain waves interacted with this mechanism down there and it stopped.
	It went up.
	It broke its sine wave and it wandered around for a while and you could see nine faces turn pale right around me.
	One guy who I think was a doctoral student turned around and started to rush out of the room and bumped into a post and nearly knocked himself out.
	And so I'm sitting there and I said, well, what happened?
	What happened?
	I didn't even know what happened at that time, you know, but then they said, oh, can you do this again?
	I don't know what I did in the first place.
	So anyhow, I continued drawing and then it did it again.
	It stopped again, but not as dramatically as the first time.
	And that impressed everybody right across the nation.
	Because if the mine can do that to a quark detector, hypothetically speaking, it could also do it to a missile or an atomic bomb.
	And so this immediately, within one week, Putoff had plane loads of people coming out to talk to him.
	That's how it got started.
	Can you say at what point the U.S.
	government began to get interested with taxpayer money?
	At that point.
	At that point.
	Oh, yes.
	Absolutely.
	I can well imagine.
	Were you... Well, I mean, you know, the evidence coming out of the Soviet Union was quite dramatic, you know.
	Part of the evidence said that they were trying to train people to knock out other people mentally at a distance, you know.
	And so this kind of thing gave substance to that, meaning that that could be possible, you know.
	Is that possible, Ingo?
	I think so, but I would prefer to talk, I would have to be talked about in, you know, how people telepathically interact to begin with, which they do.
	So that's a big, larger picture.
	But back then, people were only interested in hardware.
	They weren't interested in MIND, but if something happened to the hardware, then they had to take an interest.
	And later on, it turned out that they could be educated to accept the fact that MIND is just as important as the hardware.
	So it was the hardware, the quark detector thing.
	Hal reminded me that we went back and did it another time, about a week after, but with With results that weren't as impressive as the first time, and I've completely forgotten about that second trip.
	You're not going to believe this, but behind our conversation right now, I'm hearing another conversation, Ingo.
	I thought that was your radio.
	No!
	That's some other completely separate conversation going on.
	Are you hearing it as well?
	Yes.
	Weekly.
	It's best.
	It's best.
	That's really weird.
	That's an advertisement going on.
	That's really weird.
	That's really weird, Ingo.
	Listen, hold on.
	I'm going to stop at the break, which we're at now, and I'm going to redial the phone line and see if we can get rid of that or find it and kill it.
	Shall I hang up?
	No.
	Well, yeah.
	Hang up.
	I'll call you right back.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Ingo Swann.
	The father of remote viewing and so much more to say is my guest.
	A rare opportunity.
	He'll be right back.
	I'm watching every motion in my foolish love's game.
	On the sailing ocean, finally lovers know what's shame.
	I'm watching every motion in my foolish love's game.
	On the sailing ocean, finally lovers know what's shame.
	I'm turning every time to see the day's design.
	Watching in slow motion as you turn around to say.
	Shame on the lonely.
	Wanna take a ride?
	Well, call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
	Rockies at 1-800-825-5033. First time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222. The wildcard
	line is open at 1-775-727-1295. And to recharge on the toll free international line, call
	your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
	Well, I must say, that was pretty bizarre.
	In about the last five minutes of conversation, we had a cross-conversation going on of some sort.
	And such things have happened before.
	But I just called my network and they checked the tape and they said it's absolutely on there.
	Ingo heard it, I heard it, and it was on the tape.
	We'll see if another connection takes care of it.
	ingles one back in a moment or let's see if i've got this right uh...
	First of all, let's see if we've got a connection.
	Ingo?
	Yes, sir.
	Oh, that sounds much better.
	Does it?
	Oh, yes.
	That was really strange.
	It's explainable, you know.
	I suppose.
	We were talking about the early psychokinesis experiments.
	I've talked with remote viewers about the possibility of remote influencing.
	Yep.
	Are they the same thing?
	Yeah, it would be.
	It would be.
	Some remote viewers... Well, first of all, when you talk to them, they seem hesitant to talk about that subject at all.
	Some say they don't think it's possible that, for example, you could do a negative thing.
	For example, Saddam Hussein That ward on the face of humanity over there, that we could burst a blood vessel in his head.
	You know, something of that sort.
	They said, well, you couldn't do anything like that.
	Could you?
	Well, I suspect if the proper people knew how to do it, it would have already been done.
	And the fact that it hasn't been done means they don't know how to do it.
	Something like that.
	But the evidence in laboratory work that people can enter influence plants and
	Mechanisms is at a small level. I mean nothing really big But at a small level that's incontrovertible that kind of
	evidence so potentially it's possible to be developed well, I have personally experienced a
	Random number generators in in recent work And I've done it myself
	experimented endlessly with spectacular
	Unbelievable results.
	You know the software I'm talking about, I imagine?
	Sure.
	There are lots of versions of it.
	It's just astounding!
	It's astounding!
	And it seems as though, to varying degrees, almost anybody can seem to do it.
	Well, I might not go that far.
	Certainly enough people have demonstrated something along those lines, but the way it works is not understood, so people use the model of the material universe as their working model, and it doesn't quite follow the standard laws of the material universe.
	It's more of a mental thing, and people just don't know or don't admit that there are laws of the mental universe, too, which are somewhat different from the physical universe.
	Well, then let me revise that and let me say I was sent the software.
	I have the software here, and maybe you're familiar with this particular version.
	It presents you with two pictures, one which is perhaps all white noise on the screen, and the other a picture of a castle, or you know, whatever.
	And you sit there, and it's clocking you, it's a certain amount of time, and you're trying to make the white noise turn completely into the picture of the castle.
	And then it will, at the end of that time, assign a percentage of effect that you had during that period.
	Now, I tried it myself time and time again, and I would consistently score 85-95% while I was sitting there.
	Then I would try it and just walk out of the room, walk outside, do something else for a while, come back, inevitably, 20, 30 percent when I'm not there.
	80, 90 percent when I'm there concentrating.
	Now, that just took the breath away.
	Yeah, well it should.
	I mean, you know, I don't know what the equipment was measuring, but if you build up, let's say descriptively, if you build up a mental charge that eventually becomes big enough to overwhelm What's going on in the physical universe, then what's going on in the physical universe has to change accordingly.
	So it was probably randomly presenting some kind of white noise type of thing.
	And the more you interacted with it, the more it became organized.
	And then if that was what was being measured, then it turned into the picture.
	Precisely.
	The software is called Shape Changer from Pear Inc.
	Which came from... Oh yes, those guys.
	Yes, those guys.
	Those wonderful people.
	Yes.
	And it's stunning.
	I mean, it just, it absolutely is almost scary.
	At least that was my experience with it.
	So, that's psychokinesis.
	You are affecting a random number generator to be not so random.
	Well, it's called psychokinesis if the random number generator is actually a physical type of thing.
	But it's called telepathy if it's another mind involved.
	But the principles behind it must be somewhat similar.
	Behind either one of them must be somewhat similar.
	Well then, in your opinion, is there a way to take this limited ability that can be demonstrated
	as we just discussed and expand it?
	Is there a way to nurture it and strengthen it?
	Well, there's the old adage that practice makes perfect.
	In fact, I don't know of any experiments that have gotten this thing together so that it could be considered as a threat thing.
	It goes on in labs all the time, but when people would be, for instance, assigned to try to That's what I've heard.
	Now, what does that suggest about the nature of the universe?
	Well, it suggests that we don't know enough about it.
	and other things that apparently interfere with it.
	That's what I've heard.
	Now, what does that suggest about the nature of the universe?
	Well, it suggests that we don't know enough about it.
	And, in fact, the nature of the universe, what is known in the conventional sciences as the nature of
	the universe, is in fact only the physical part of it,
	the other part.
	I mean, you know, life can't really be explained completely by matter because, as it used to be thought, because it's now known that matter is just a congregated form of energy to begin with.
	So there's a big field out there called energetics.
	which people don't really know too much about.
	Dr. Bill Tiller is one of the people that works with this kind of thing and, of course,
	he finds it very hard to sell his book.
	Yes, if these abilities, if you want to call them that, get to the point where they get
	to be strong enough that they could be interpreted as a threat value, then that becomes a different
	matter entirely.
	You're not going to believe this.
	I'm hearing again some other broadcast or discussion underway way behind us.
	Really weird, Ingo.
	Well, somebody's eavesdropping on this and using a frequency that's quite near that radio station, so it's bleeding back into your system.
	Well, that just doesn't happen, at least not normally.
	Not here, believe me.
	How did you feel about the development of the specific discipline of remote viewing that the government did?
	Well, Puthoff did it.
	The government didn't do it.
	Puthoff did it for the government.
	But he did it based on studying you to a large degree.
	Yes, that's true.
	See, that's what I don't understand.
	You're a natural.
	How did he translate your apparent natural ability to a discipline that could be developed into a program?
	Well, this is a long story.
	But basically...
	It's a long radio program.
	I have to say something now that probably a lot of people would be irritated with, but
	we didn't...
	You see, you have to consider the realities of the clients, in this case the government agencies, and you have to consider actually what it is that you think you're working with.
	So what Puthoff and I did was decide that whatever psychic Perceptions consisted of, that they did consist of perception.
	So it didn't really matter if the source of it could be called psychic or not.
	The stuff to work with were the perceptual processes in the human being.
	So we converted over to perception studies rather than psychic studies.
	At that time there was an enormous literature.
	about perception and it was quite well understood scientifically that perception can be expanded
	by simply working with it. And in fact when he and I put together our first proposals
	we did it from the angle of perception because you know there were going to be oversight committees and
	all kinds of people inspecting this and you had to show why one would be justified for looking into this kind of
	perceptions.
	So we used perceptual studies and in fact it turned out several years later that what we were doing was increasing perception.
	The parameters of perception and so we just eliminated the word psychic from it and so forth and so on.
	Perception equals intuition?
	Perception equals anything that you can perceive and of course You don't even need to call it intuition.
	It's only intuition if it's not based upon physical types of things.
	Well, is it for the regular person, the regular Joe walking down the street, every now and then fairly intuitive people will have a very strong feeling about a decision that looms ahead in their life, an intuitive feeling.
	Well, that's the construct of processing information to the point where it becomes perceptible.
	If that person didn't have high stage perceptual factors working for him, then they wouldn't experience that kind of thing.
	As both a logical deduction.
	Right.
	Now, in considering perception, you have to understand that it can be closed down.
	I mean, there are all sorts of processes that can be used to limit a person's perceptual faculties.
	So, if they can be closed down, such as in hypnosis and brainwashing and all kinds of social programming and things like that, these things can be reduced from their functioning.
	If they can be reduced from their functioning, they can also be expanded.
	That was the principle that we went forward with, was perceptual studies.
	In other words, how far could you take it?
	Yeah.
	Apparently far enough to get funding to go for 20 years now.
	Yes.
	We were all shocked.
	You had to produce results really fast.
	It wasn't just merely a hypothesis.
	You had to put your results where your mouth was eventually.
	Well, you did that, right?
	Or it was done?
	It was done, yes.
	It was done.
	One thing that I have never understood, and to this very day do not, is that the remote viewing when we saw dead couple it was to announce we had been doing it for 20 years but guess what we're not doing it anymore cause it doesn't work well 20 years is a helluva long time to decide something doesn't work actually when you think of the larger societal picture
	And the balance of powers and the secrecy that goes on with everything.
	Would you want to have high quality remote viewing admitted as workable?
	No.
	I was told behind the scenes as early as 1973 that even if we did succeed at demonstrating
	something along the these lines at Stanford that eventually it would be obliterated
	because if something like that becomes good enough, then it's a threat potential
	against everybody's closely guarded secrets.
	But at that time during the Cold War, you notice that the program was closed down almost
	immediately that the Cold War was over with.
	That's right.
	Well, supposedly, yes.
	Yes.
	So this kind of development wasn't needed anymore because the American effort was a
	response to the Soviet effort.
	And when the Soviet effort collapsed and went away, then there was no need for it anymore
	in America.
	So now a publicity program had to get going, saying, yes, we looked at it, but it didn't work, and hoping that the 20-year period wasn't noticed.
	Well, I ask every remote viewer, The same question, and that is, if remote viewing really works, and they had to say it didn't work, then wouldn't it be logical to conclude that it's still going on, and probably even at a higher level, and almost every remote viewer says, no, politics killed it, and I just refuse to believe that.
	If it really works, then we're still doing it.
	Well, if so, even when we were working on it, it was a black program.
	Right.
	Especially after it got classified, which I encouraged it to be at that time, just to protect the people working with the remote viewing.
	But if it's going on, then it's a black program.
	Double black, triple black, I don't know.
	One can imagine that.
	Easily.
	So you don't rule out the possibility that at some level it is still going on?
	Oh, I don't rule it out at all with regards to Japan and China.
	Americans only respond to things they very seldom take the initiative unless it involves money and territory.
	But interest in this is I mean, a really big time interest in this has been going on in Japan and China for some time.
	Well, the Chinese are not exactly, other than some trade, our best friends at the moment.
	So, if they're doing it, I would think that... Well, let's say they're messing around with it, trying to figure out so forth and so on.
	In my website I have reviewed a book written by somebody who is quite knowledgeable in all that.
	I don't have it handy here, but it's a report on the kind of research that's been going on in China along these lines since about the early 1980s.
	This gives one pause if you're interested in the future.
	I mean, it's quite obvious that whoever develops these kinds of things to a point where they become functional, really functional, are going to have an advantage over those that don't have that.
	That's quite clear.
	Well, if that's quite clear... It's unclear to me and a number of other people, but the best way to...
	Make people not be concerned is to say it doesn't work.
	It's the same thing as saying UFOs don't exist and ETs aren't real.
	So you can put out this social conditioning out there that simply causes people not to think about it because it's thought to be insignificant even if it does exist.
	The point when it changes from being insignificant to significant is the make-break point between What's going to happen about it?
	Gotcha.
	Hold on, Ingo.
	We're at the top of the hour break.
	Ingo Swann, the father of remote viewing and a great natural intuitive slash psychic slash whatever words you want to put to it, perhaps one of the greatest, is my guest.
	and uh...
	we're gonna talk about this and
	and and
	and and
	and without a government line to us
	so you can see the difference.
	Lack telling us the truth?
	Deceive us?
	Feed us disinformation?
	Our government?
	To reach Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye, from west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	885-885-885-8255, east of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222, or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1222.
	seven two seven twelve ninety five to recharge on the phone for the international line call
	your agency operator
	and have been dialed eight hundred eight nine three zero nine zero three
	this is close to close to him with our bill on the premier radio networks and
	said to be the man with the greatest natural ability
	in the areas we've been discussing ingles one
	is my guest a rare opportunity
	to look into the mind of the man who began it all.
	We'll be right back.
	All right, once again, Ingo Swann and Ingo, welcome back.
	We were discussing the possibility of a current program, two or three black levels deep, that would still be going on in this country.
	And you admitted it as at least a possibility.
	A mutual acquaintance of ours, John Alexander, you know him?
	Oh yeah.
	He called during the break and he said, why don't you ask... I don't want to take credit for his question.
	He said, Art, why don't you ask Ingo if such a program, in his opinion, could be going on without him?
	Oh yes, absolutely.
	They don't want me around anymore.
	Oh no?
	No!
	First of all, I'm too stubborn about a lot of things.
	Second of all, I have ideas of my own and they don't want to deal with people who have ideas of their own.
	And I'm getting too old anyway.
	I'm probably past my prime in all of this.
	Well, let me ask you about a few of those things.
	What do you mean you're stubborn?
	Huh?
	I said, what do you mean you're stubborn?
	From their point of view, how so?
	Well, you know, if you work in that system, those systems, you know, these are chains of command.
	Oh, sure.
	And one of the things that we came to grief over was these chains of command sent down
	that you are supposed to research this and that.
	I would say, well, there is no use doing that because it's not going to result in anything
	and I refused to do it.
	Were these bureaucrats?
	Oh, they were bureaucrats.
	They were military people.
	But you know, there are chains of command everywhere and people that are putting up
	money to get what they think should be done done.
	But I'm not going to sit around and waste my time just trying to fulfill a mandate like
	that when it's real to me that it's never going to get anywhere.
	So in other words, put simply, a couple times, a few times, you told them just to get screwed?
	Well, I left SRI about five times.
	Five times?
	Over this issue.
	And I said, you know, I'd really rather go back to New York and write a novel and try to earn some money or something.
	I mean, you know, I'm an artist.
	I just as well take this time and paint.
	Well, I once got fired by a boss six times.
	So, there you are.
	Ideas of your own.
	In other words, avenues of research that you wanted to pursue that they were not interested in.
	I would take it to mean that?
	Well, you see, in the early 70's, the only frames of reference that most people had for these kind of things were drawn from science fiction.
	I mean, nobody sat around and read boring parapsychology periodicals and things like that.
	So, they had these science fiction ideas and that's what they were working with and I said, well, we have to change that right away.
	In fact, I once gave a presentation.
	Did you scare the people you worked for?
	Sure.
	should mention here and say you can't get anywhere if you're going to think of this
	in terms of science fiction.
	You have to think of it in terms of real phenomena.
	Real phenomena are acting differently from how these things are presented in science
	fiction.
	Did you scare the people you worked for?
	Sure.
	I didn't set about to do that.
	For instance, all through 1972 and 1973 people would come from Washington to talk with Puthoff
	but they wouldn't want to talk with me.
	They wouldn't even touch with me because they were afraid I could read their minds.
	Could you?
	Sometimes.
	And I said, well, you know, what can I do about it?
	So I had to eat lunch alone.
	You know, I had to go to this little cheapo cafeteria while they sat in the dining room over there talking about me.
	Well, that's going to engender some resentment right there.
	Well, I don't care.
	I mean, to hell with resentment, you know.
	If there's going to be resentment, you know, everybody's supposed to row the same boat on a project, right?
	Sure.
	And if they don't do that, I'm going to go watch the grass grow somewhere.
	Well, remote viewing, for example, finding a weapons system in a foreign country, that's one thing.
	Drawing it, perhaps locating it, but sitting down at lunch or any other venue with somebody and essentially reading their mind, that's Oh, I mean these chains of command are just terrified of telepathy.
	I review that situation in my book, Penetration.
	They're terrified of it.
	They don't want telepathy and they're quite content to talk about it in a model of mind-to-mind thing that actually doesn't work.
	It's irrational, you know.
	I mean, most minds aren't worth reading to begin with.
	But it's not really irrational.
	In every, excuse me, but science fiction movie I've seen in which telepathy was the subject, inevitably the telepaths were hunted down and killed like dogs.
	Yes.
	Human history has a history of doing just that.
	Yeah, sure, once we burned witches.
	But I really can understand why that would be the reaction of somebody who would be terrified that you would be reading their inner thoughts.
	I mean, that is a terrifying thing for most people.
	It's not just their inner thoughts, it's their secrets.
	Their secrets?
	Their secrets, you know.
	It's just one of the realities out there.
	You see, the whole field of psychoenergetics has never been really researched because if you permit research into it, if you give funding for it, our program at SRI was called psychoenergetics because it was studying the energetics of information transfer between things and people and so forth and so on.
	You know, people were so afraid of telepathy I said to put up, well we can't use this word anymore because that's like waving a red flag before a bull.
	So we eliminated the word telepathy and a few other words too.
	But yes, I mean, if telepathy could be made functional then everybody on this planet has a problem.
	And if it can be made functional between earthlings and extraterrestrials, then this is upsetting the entire earth frame culture.
	Are you a natural telepath?
	Oh, I don't know.
	Well, yes you do.
	I don't really.
	Another book that I had self-published called Psychic Sexuality.
	I mean, people pick up sex vibes like mad from each other.
	This has never been researched because it opens the door to the greater realm of psycho-energetics.
	No, I mean, as long as there are secrets and preferred information and a power structure where the power is collected at the top.
	Not distributed very fairly down throughout the rest of it.
	These power structures don't want this because, you know, power has enough problems.
	If you introduce telepathy into it, then it really becomes problematic.
	Oh yeah, the whole structure is supported by secrets.
	So, we couldn't have an end to secrets, at least not in Survivor.
	No, we could have secrets, but it simply means that they become accessible and could be used for proprietary access to formulas and places and what people are actually doing.
	What people are actually doing at the top of these power structures has nothing to do with what the other people down below think is going on.
	Do you still have to eat lunch alone a lot now?
	Well, what was John Alexander's question again?
	It was, could they really have a double or triple black secret program without you?
	Sure.
	I mean, they had them before me.
	They can have them after me.
	Exactly.
	Post and go.
	So then, we should imagine it's certainly possible they have something going, and if they don't, then they're not paying proper, careful attention to national security.
	That's right, absolutely.
	Now, why won't any of the other remote viewers say that?
	I mean, inevitably, almost to the one, they say, oh no, there's no program going on now, politics killed it, it was an embarrassment, all the rest of it, it's dead, I guarantee you there's nothing going on now.
	That's what they say.
	Do they lack imagination?
	Well, as you know, I don't like to talk about other people.
	Well, this is a general thing.
	This is an issue, right?
	Well, it is, yes.
	People interpret reality with their impersonal frames of reference.
	And if they don't have frames of reference that can incorporate this kind of thing, then that's how they function.
	For instance, if they use the Parapsychology frame of reference to try to understand these things, this is the wrong frame of reference.
	You have to use frames of reference that involve perception and receptors on the human body that receive different kinds of information and things like that.
	So this is a problem in perceptual information processing and it has nothing to do with these few terms that have become popular but actually don't mean anything because they are the wrong frames of reference.
	So people that say these things, I'm very appreciative of the American genius that occupies a great part of these chains of command.
	There are really some really smart people that are around.
	There are a lot of idiots too, but there are lots of smart people working on these things.
	I mean, you know, this is an area to be investigated, but the discoveries in it are so sensitive that the general public has to become convinced that there's nothing to it.
	But it's the exact opposite, isn't it?
	I've got a lot of faxes here saying, You know, Art, I've really always wanted to know, I'm just not 100% convinced there is even such a phenomenon as remote viewing.
	Is there any question whatsoever in your mind, but that remote viewing is an absolutely true discipline, that it's real?
	Well, I mean, that could be my personal opinion, but the evidence is that the SRI program was funded for 20 years, well, actually 18 years.
	If there was no reality here, then that funding would have stopped this second year.
	Right?
	One would certainly think so, yes.
	No, no, no.
	One has to know that.
	I mean, people don't run around and pour money into something that doesn't work.
	I mean, that's hard to figure out in our whole system.
	Wait a minute.
	Are you making that statement about our government?
	Anybody.
	That they don't pour money into things that don't work?
	Right.
	If they know it doesn't work, then they don't pour money into it.
	Well, I know they pour millions of dollars into developing toilet seats and hammers, but I'm not talking about that kind of thing.
	I'm talking about in 1973, You could lose your job and your status if you advanced a professional interest in ESP or psychokinesis, right?
	Oh, sure.
	It's not the same today, but back then that was it.
	In fact, the greatest worry of the executives that took the decision to support our program was how they could cover their asses against this accusation of dealing in irrationality.
	So we had to produce the evidence that it worked right from the start.
	And it was only that evidence that can explain the long investment of the various agencies that kicked in money for it.
	What do you think explains the sudden nightline program and the revelation of the whole program to begin with?
	In other words, was this about to leak out anyway?
	Was there some Threat that was looming that caused them to come forward and say, guess what we've been doing and now we're not doing it?
	What brought that on?
	The CIA has only volunteered to go public on something three times in their history.
	The discrediting of remote viewing was one time and it was completely unexpected at that time.
	They do everything for a reason.
	You have to really look into what those reasons might be.
	In my mind anyway, one of those reasons was that they didn't want to ever have remote viewing connected with anything extraterrestrial because you put those two things together and you have a developing situation that these chains of command don't exactly know how to manage from the get-go.
	So apparently the situation had gotten to a point where there were so many Freedom of Information inquiries and things like that that those people took the extraordinary step of disclaiming it.
	Are you telling me then that at some point in the program, and maybe you'd like to tell me at what point in the program, the people involved became aware Of more than just terrestrial information?
	Well, actually, I think it was Pat Price.
	You've heard of him, haven't you?
	I've heard the name.
	Yes, he was one of the early people that worked with Hal and sometimes with me.
	I think it was him who first enunciated the location of a... I put it, a human extraterrestrial cooperation base, something like that.
	Oh my, really?
	Oh my, yes.
	And can you imagine the bells that started going off?
	Oh, absolutely.
	A Human Extraterrestrial Cooperation Base.
	The location thereof.
	I told Pat Price, I don't think you should tell anybody about this.
	Do you know where I live?
	Pat Price is, yes, I know where you live.
	You know where I live?
	Pat Price is stubborn too, you know, and he went ahead and talked about those things.
	Even unofficially, you know.
	And he had a good reputation, you know.
	He was a police officer.
	Would I regard that location as a neighbor?
	No.
	No?
	No.
	Is the location you're talking about still a classified matter?
	Well, I mean, it never even got to the point where it needed to be classified.
	I mean, you can just wipe this away without even classifying it.
	That place is not there anymore.
	That I know.
	Not there anymore?
	No.
	Are there other places that are there now?
	Oh, yes.
	I've just finished reading two books.
	One of them is The Catchers of Heaven by one Michael Wolfe who is talking about them like
	mad in his book.
	Ingo, hold it right there.
	We're at a break point.
	Listen, everybody.
	Ingo has written a whole bunch of books that you're going to want to read about.
	On my website, we've got links to his books.
	Go up there, www.artbell.com.
	scroll down to the name ingo swan why i give you everything and more and that's for sure why
	i bring you down with me leave your cares behind come with us and find
	the pleasures of a journey to the center of your mind come along if you care come along if you dare
	take a ride to the length and side of your mind wanna take a ride?
	Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	800-618-8255, east of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
	The wildcard line is open at 1-800-825-5033.
	And to call it on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nile.
	So if you can, please understand, you might not come back.
	I wonder if that's true, that you might not come back.
	Good morning, everybody.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
	My guest is a rare bird.
	He's Ingo Swann, thought to be one of the greatest naturals who's ever lived.
	We'll get right back to them.
	Alright, back down to Ingo Swan after that last little bombshell.
	I would like to ask Ingo just exactly how much do you know about human extraterrestrial intercourse?
	Intellectual or otherwise.
	Well, 50% of what I know is I put in my book, Penetration.
	That's what secrecy is all about.
	Keep it from being penetrated.
	This is your latest book?
	It's called penetration, isn't it?
	No.
	Penetration, that's what secrecy is all about, man.
	Keep it from being penetrated.
	This is your latest book?
	No.
	I had written a number of books which no publisher would touch with a ten foot pole.
	So eventually I decided to publish them myself.
	The things that I've experienced and learned, I should put them in print somewhere.
	And your latest book, is it self-published as well?
	Yes, Penetration is self-published.
	Then I went ahead and did the Psychic Sexuality book, too.
	It's very hard for you to think that anything can be covered up about sexuality, but indeed it can.
	It was a good way to show how the entire field of energetics is covered up, too.
	I published that one, too.
	Alright, then give us just a sort of a 101 on human ET contact.
	Is it extensive?
	Has it been going on a long time?
	Are there a lot of bases?
	People have a lot of questions about this, Ingo.
	Yes, I know they do.
	The only thing I can do is... Many years ago, when I was working at the United Nations, I came across a book called I wrote to the author, who is, I'm sure, deceased by now, and carried on a correspondence with him.
	He had tracked the historical story of E.T.' 's coming to Earth.
	Then he wrote a book called Ancient Astronauts in Israel.
	Oh, it just went on and on and on and I said, good heavens!
	And the thing about this book is that this guy learned nine languages in order to read original texts and things like that and he gave the references.
	So I checked out some of the references and they were there.
	So this is a well-researched document.
	He couldn't get his books published in the United States.
	He got to be quite famous in England and in Europe and especially in Italy for some reason.
	There was one version of Spaceman in the Ancient East published here in the United States.
	After that, no publisher would take his books on and he wrote about ten of them.
	I said, well, why is it that these books won't get published in America?
	At the bottom line, they're just too revealing, right?
	I mean, you know, they say the right things.
	They do the right history.
	They document it and everything like that.
	So I said, well, there's some kind of cover-up going on here, you know.
	I mean, powerful people do have control of book publishers.
	So that started me off in the 60's on this kind of interest and that was before I started doing experiments.
	First-hand knowledge in this area, Ingo?
	Yes, I do.
	It's really strange.
	That's okay.
	This is the home of strange.
	This is the home of strange.
	Well, in 1975 I found myself invited into a very strange remote viewing thing.
	The whole story of that is the first part of my book, Penetration.
	And it turned out that, I mean this was really, really strange the way it went about things, but it turned out that the guy involved was very obviously part of a larger system having deep concerns in extraterrestrial matters.
	He wanted me to remove certain locations on the moon.
	So I did that and then he kept asking While we were doing this it took about three days in an underground installation somewhere.
	It took about three days and he kept introducing the topic of telepathy as an oh-by-the-way type of thing.
	So finally I can be really naive.
	It took me about 48 hours to say, this guy is not interested in remote viewing.
	He already knows what's on the moon.
	He's interested in the telepathic thing.
	And so I said, come on, you guys have a problem, a telepathic problem with ETs, don't you?
	And of course, that blew the cool of everybody.
	And I had promised not to talk about this for ten years.
	There was no paper trail of this project or anything, but actually what had happened was I briefly got on the inside of this It's a super-duper secret thing of dealing with ETs.
	And it turns out I didn't play my cards right.
	If I had have played my cards better, I could have probably been taken into the whole thing and become a lifetime project.
	What is on the moon, Ingo?
	Stuff.
	Stuff.
	And them.
	And them.
	Their stuff.
	It's not our stuff.
	Well, there has been, when you think about the U.S.
	space program, the manned space program particularly, over 30 years ago we went to the moon and we've never gone back.
	That's right.
	Nor have we gone anywhere else with men.
	And a lot of people have been really curious about that, and I know they talk about money, and they talk about a lot of other things, and I've interviewed a lot of astronauts, Ingo, and when you ask them about their time on the moon, walking on the moon, they give you really strange answers.
	Like, you know, they'll say, well, you know, it's funny, but when I think about it, the entire experience was surreal, And we've asked specific questions about, like, did you see this or did you see that?
	And there's sort of a stutter-stop hesitation, and they'll say, no, but it could have been there, and I could have not seen it.
	I was in such a... Really?
	Did they go that far?
	Yeah.
	Yes.
	I've never heard anyone go that far.
	Yes, all I have.
	Well, you're on the pulse of things, and I'm not.
	Even people like Neil Armstrong, you know, the first guy to set foot on, has made some very intriguing statements with regard to what could be ahead of us, the fantastic things that could be ahead of us.
	And I don't think he's talking about the International Space Station.
	He actually did that at the White House.
	And then of course we have the fact that all of these astronauts, or the great majority of them actually, have come to real problems, psychological, drinking, domestic problems, all kinds of problems that one might imagine could be precipitated by trying to hold on to information that they don't really want to hold on to.
	Speculation, but not bad.
	Well, I think that they're...
	Let's say if there is stuff on the moon that isn't ours then there is a real problem and I think that the best way to handle that problem is just to put out a public I did not know that specifically.
	No, I didn't.
	nothing at all about anything.
	Well, they've done that.
	Yeah, they've done that.
	No, they didn't go back to the moon after a certain point.
	In fact, they left three fully developed manned landing things on the pads and never used
	them.
	They were set to go and they never used the last three of them.
	Did you know that?
	I did not know that specifically.
	No, I didn't.
	Well, it's in my book.
	is in my book.
	I didn't say everything, but things like that are in my book.
	When you put the pieces together, you come up with a story, right?
	That's right.
	The way to not come up with a story is to prevent the pieces from being put together.
	I love reading between the lines, and boy, you sure have lots of good reading between those lines for us.
	By the way, what would you recommend as a first book?
	For people to read, what would you like to have them read right now?
	Well, I only have two available, and I think they should read both of them because actually they're on totally different topics, but they're interrelated.
	The first one is called Penetration, The Question of Extraterrestrial and Human Telepathy, and the second one is called Psychic Sexuality.
	The bio-psychic anatomy of sexual energies.
	They both cost $18.95.
	$18.95.
	All right, I've got the phone numbers, so let me give them out.
	Are these phone numbers that I'm about to give out, getting pencil, I hope everybody, and paper, are these phone numbers day and night, or just day, or what?
	Well, right now they're being manned.
	Oh, operators are sitting around and waiting.
	They're both toll-free.
	Well, then let's make them earn their money.
	So if you would like either one of these books, folks, you can call one of two toll-free numbers.
	One is 888-453-4046.
	888-453-4046.
	That's 888-453-4046 or 877-565-8391.
	That's 8-7-7-5-6-5-8-3-9-1.
	If one is busy, try the other.
	And you might want to grab actually both books.
	Ingo, I've interviewed a lot of people about apparitions and ghosts and things that are inexplicable.
	And in almost every case, It seems that these apparitions, psychokinetic occurrences, inexplicable occurrences of all sorts, seem to occur around young teenage girls.
	But that's not true.
	Well, according to some people it is.
	Well I know, I mean, Freud and Jung Yes, they're back.
	Unbelievable!
	People like to latch on to one explanation and the one explanation was you had to have a prepubescent teenage girl to have these kinds of effects, but that's not true.
	People of all ages experience them.
	I suppose that may be true, but you don't suppose the extra raging hormones in a young teenage girl would specifically engender that energy any more than... Well, it could be, but actually it happens with boys, too.
	I mean, some of these preprofessional boys... I remember.
	We can't locate it to just this one thing, actually.
	But actually, if you have disturbed sexual energies, these are very powerful energies, you know, and they could kick anything off.
	It's just that I sort of resist limiting it to what is just hearsay.
	In fact, if you talk with Dr. William Roll, Who specializes in this kind of thing, apparitions and PK combined and things.
	You'd get a better background as to how it's distributed.
	The thing is that people who are more mature probably don't report this as much.
	They're afraid to report it because they're going to be thought of as crazy.
	I know.
	But parents who have a disturbed daughter or a teenager would likely take them to a shrink and say, you know, fix this.
	and that's why it's more visible there.
	So, sexual energy then, is immediately transferable in a psychic manner, or can be detected very easily, psychically,
	or...
	Well, haven't you ever detected somebody's sex vibes?
	Oh, yes.
	I mean, this is the point I make.
	Here's the tip of an iceberg about psychoenergetics.
	If there's one thing that can't be accounted for in materialistic terms, and that same thing can be picked up by just about everybody, it's sexual energy.
	And it's just, this is the one common thing that everybody, most people share in common, but it's never been researched.
	In fact, researchers who've embarked upon it have usually been burnt at the stake, so to speak.
	Well, wouldn't most medical doctors say it's something that's given off, what do they call Well, I mean, for many years the conventional scientific establishment denied the existence of human pheromones.
	That's true.
	That's true.
	And it's only right now that I'm beginning to see articles.
	I subscribe to science periodicals and things like that.
	Now it seems okay to think that humans do have pheromones, especially in the armpits.
	The armpits produce these things.
	Really?
	So if you sniff armpits you can sniff pheromones.
	I mean I have a science news here that says this.
	And so, I mean, you know, you have to, what you read is not the truth usually.
	And so you have to have a big input from a number of different sources to get a bigger
	picture of these things, you know.
	But yes, pheromones, essentially, can be smelled by the nose.
	In fact, there's a series of receptors that have been discovered in the nose.
	And I happen to have this list of recently discovered receptors at the top of it.
	Receptors in the nose, sensing systems that smell emotions, and that can identify motives, sexual receptivity, antagonism, and benevolence.
	Well, how do we delineate, though, between the attraction caused by armpits and the brain?
	I don't know.
	I mean, I don't know everything, but the fact is that the nose does more than smell smells.
	It smells emotions.
	And fear.
	And fear, yeah.
	You know, and these were all called forms of ESP before.
	But in fact, there are physical receptors in the nervous system that do this.
	So you have to depart from what was thought in the past and find out what's being discovered in the now.
	All right.
	You good for one more hour?
	I guess so.
	Oh, good.
	All right, then.
	Take a break.
	If you are, are you?
	Oh, okay.
	I'm always good for another hour.
	Okay.
	Stay right where you are.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast Band.
	When it's alright and it's coming home, we gotta get right back to where we started from.
	Love is good, love can be strong, we gotta get right back to where we started from.
	Boy, no, I've never heard that sound and I never want to hear that sound.
	Back now to our guest, Ingo Swann.
	Ingo, you know, one of the great interests in my life Has been the concept, the idea of time travel.
	And I have been told by many, if not all, the remote viewers that remote viewing the present is only one of the things you can do.
	That in effect, time travel or viewing into the future or into the past is equally possible.
	Would you agree with that?
	Hypothetically yes, but there's evidence for that.
	And in fact, do you mind if I review some experiments at SRI?
	Not at all.
	Go right ahead.
	One of the persons that was being a subject out there was Hella Hammond, who is a really wonderful lady.
	And she was doing, this was back in the early days when The put-off and targ were doing experiments that were called outbound remote viewing experiments.
	And this was, they would get six sealed envelopes and they'd have to drive two miles from SRI and then use their calculator to randomly select one of these targets and open the envelope and go to that place.
	And the subject back at SRI at a given time was supposed to describe the place they were at, right?
	Right.
	Did you follow that?
	Sure.
	So I had done a series of those and got tired of doing them and so they got Hella Hammett and a couple of other people to try this and Hella was very good at this.
	She was really terrific but she was also a stubborn person and one day they came in and I know she told me that she didn't want to do the experiment because she had an appointment having to do with getting a show of her photography at Stanford University.
	So I says, well, I don't know what to do about it.
	It's up to you.
	So I left him alone and pretty soon put off and Todd came running into my office and said, Helen says she already knows what the site's going to be.
	What are we supposed to do?
	And I says, well, Have her tell you what the site is, you know?
	So, Hela did that and then took off for her appointment.
	So then, put off and tired, had to go get in their car and they drove two miles and then they opened up the envelope and went to the site.
	The matching of Hela's description and her drawing with the site was simply uncontrovertible.
	So, she had viewed some site that had not yet been selected as a site.
	Well, that's some trouble.
	And this is where we got the idea that remote viewing experiments could be front-timed to go somewhere in the near future, or back-timed to go into the past.
	Well, now wait a minute.
	There's one other possibility, of course.
	And that is that it was telepathy.
	No, no, no.
	Well, I mean, you could say that, but Putoff and Tark didn't know what was in these six envelopes at all.
	These were generated by actually Dr. Bart Koch's office, who was the head of the physics department at that time, and they were put in sealed envelopes, and I think that there was like a hundred of them all together.
	And when 6-7 were needed, his secretary went and just pulled out six randomly, and then gave them to put off in Targ, and then they had to go two miles in order to open one.
	So, I mean, the telepathy thing explanation doesn't get very far.
	That would be how put off in Russell Targ, right?
	Yes, it would be, yes.
	So, I mean, there's always been evidence.
	I mean, this is what intuitives do.
	They see the future, right?
	I mean, they see something in the future.
	So here was, hell, I haven't just seen a future thing that was really quite unexplainable, except by hypothesizing that the human mind or something in the human system has the ability of knowing what's going to happen in the future.
	What then does that say to us?
	If anything, do you suppose or would you speculate about the nature of time itself?
	I don't know that.
	You know, time as we conceive it is a very arbitrary thing.
	It's very difficult to integrate time into this.
	You know, I'm stupid about these matters anyway.
	But in terms of knowing that our human systems must be able to predict something of what's going to happen to them in the future, it actually has to be there because they couldn't survive very well if it wasn't there.
	It's just like smelling pheromones in the armpit.
	You can smell the future coming or something like that.
	Time doesn't seem to matter because time is just a series of numbers that are arbitrary.
	The implication of all this is that if you can be aware of what will occur in the future, reliably so even, then we are but marionettes acting out the preordained.
	Oh no, no, we're much more than that.
	We are extraordinary sensing systems whose sensing potentials and capabilities are not confined to the present.
	We can sense things in the past and in the future.
	We are sensing systems.
	Any life form that's going to have very much going for survival has to be able to sense beyond the present.
	You've got to understand that what we call the present, the now, although it seems really big to us, is but a flickering moment between the past and the future.
	You bet.
	That's all it is.
	So you have to think of time streams.
	You don't need to think in terms of past, present and future.
	Something is streaming and we're part of that streaming.
	We have to know certain things.
	Even in materialistic sense, we have to understand what's happening physically and project from that what's going to happen physically.
	There's no reason that the mind can't do this too.
	Then could it be changed?
	In other words, could you view a future event and then change that event by your action?
	I think so.
	I've managed to actually do that about three times in my life.
	Really?
	Oh, yeah.
	Involving what?
	Well, some people were going to do things that I didn't think should be done, and I had no way of stopping them.
	Except to will it.
	Except to?
	And in fact it did not get done.
	Except to will it?
	Yes.
	Oh my god, well now we're back to the remote influencing.
	That's right.
	You see, you can't think of these things as separate things like in parapsychology, clairvoyance, telepathy, PK, retrocognition.
	They're not separate.
	They're not separate.
	They're part, they're all part How do you feel about the ethical questions that are obviously hanging all around this?
	Ethical and moral is relative to what people are thinking is ethical and moral, right?
	Yes.
	If you're a fine, upstanding human sensing system, you would probably like to manage this beneficenting procreative ways.
	If you happen to be a scumbag, then you might manage them differently, right?
	So this is all relative.
	And what's relative cannot really be brought into the picture until you understand what
	these relativities are being relative to.
	Well, if you're not an ethical person, you might precipitate procreation, but it would
	be a sidebar.
	You mean a random download?
	Well, I mean a random seduction, I guess.
	I know.
	We don't know enough about ourselves.
	I mean, the image of the human that has been set forth in the past is really an extremely limited one.
	And I think that it's been supported socially and propagated through social conditioning You set up a simple idea that is true as far as it goes, but it doesn't incorporate larger truths.
	Power belongs to the few and the few like that and they don't want the rest to get powerful.
	So you set up a simple idea that is true as far as it goes but it doesn't incorporate larger truths.
	So this is what you teach people, that the human being is a body, a physical body only.
	Well, it's not.
	Even the atoms are made of energy.
	And you get into the realm of psycho-energetics, energetics right away.
	And if you get into that realm, then everything else begins to unfold.
	Telepathy, cognition, everything.
	The sensing system.
	I am told, Ingo, that as carefully as the protocols were structured in the military program, that Other things began to creep in.
	Sure.
	That other things began to be sensed.
	Entities.
	Right.
	That is right.
	Of course.
	Once you activate, let's say, when you go into a training program, let's say we have a full spectrum, a 100% spectrum of sensing faculties.
	Okay?
	Yes.
	And in the normal case, 10% of them have been activated.
	And the other 90% have been barriered or kept unactivated.
	So you go into a consciousness, awareness, perceptual training system, the essential goal of which is to enhance perception and awareness.
	So you start doing that and then above this initial 10% other sensing systems begin to become activated.
	So the more these get activated, the more you start sensing everything.
	You're not just confined to the initial 10%.
	So yes, there are beings around.
	There's telepathy.
	There's this and that and so forth and so on.
	So you activate.
	The thing that has been done is you've expanded awareness by these training programs.
	And to the degree that you've expanded awareness in this or that direction, you'll begin to sense other things besides what you're supposed to.
	I bet the military hated that.
	Yes.
	Well, everybody hated it, you know.
	I mean, this just takes down all the walls and barriers, you know.
	And so, the only defense against this from happening is for the powerful few, the power structures, and so forth and so on, is to discredit 90% of our sensing systems.
	The only problem with that is that they know that people like you are still out there.
	They know about these sensing systems.
	That's what they know about.
	And I'm just a jiggle in the system here, you know, and it doesn't matter.
	I mean, you know, a person can be contained, but if the general public began aware that they're using only 10% of their sensing systems and then made made noises about wanting to have more of these activated,
	then this becomes a real societal problem.
	In the modern West, there has been a great deal of effort to say, no, no, no, you only
	have five physical senses, you don't have any more.
	The make-break point is between whether you accept that or you don't accept it anymore.
	If you don't accept it then these other sensing systems are likely to turn on in a random way.
	Well I know but still the knowledge of the powerful that there are people like you out there would be unacceptable unless you had come to some accommodation with them.
	Well I mean if they can harness you to use for their purposes then I guess you'd be dragged
	into the inside.
	But you see I'm too really stubborn for that.
	That's what I mean.
	You're not harnessed now.
	In terms of other people there was a very famous psychic, I guess we should call him
	that, in Poland at the turn of the century named Osowiecki.
	He just outdid me in every direction you know.
	And the Germans at that time became aware of him and they said you have to come and
	work with us and that he wouldn't do it.
	So he didn't have too much more time to spend.
	So there's a historical precedent for what I'm saying.
	I'm not just saying this.
	I think I can show in the past, even going back to some really big, ugly societal sequences, Power.
	If power is to be held in the hands of the few, then the rest must be somehow depowered.
	And the way to do that is to confine their perceptual systems to smaller orders.
	But they're never really going to harness people like you, because people like you are going to refuse to be harnessed.
	You're in a different realm.
	So it's not just Ingo, it's a lot of other people like Ingo, or with some portion of Ingo's abilities.
	But once those abilities are acquired, the rebellion is almost a foregone conclusion, isn't it?
	Yes.
	They know that, too.
	I mean, this is not new.
	Inside power structures, this is not new.
	This has been a problem since Greek times, you know.
	The prophetesses survived as long as they worked for the state, okay?
	If they did not work for the state, then they were eliminated.
	There's a historical stream of this that goes on through.
	In modern times, you come to some sort of accommodation with them.
	You're still here.
	I must presume either we are sophisticated beyond what I thought we were or you have come to some accommodation with them.
	No.
	In intelligent services, there's a standard rule of thumb that you don't actually need to interact with people producing information because you can acquire the information anyway.
	Okay?
	Well, sure.
	Okay.
	In the case I put off in myself, this was an urgency due to the psycho-energetic threat from the Soviet Union at the time.
	But actually, for instance, in the Internet, everybody can put in anything they want now, right?
	Correct.
	And if there was a system of control, if to prevent that was more ideal than permitting it, then they wouldn't be allowed to do that, right?
	So the listeners, I mean people spill their guts in the internet and so these intelligence services just sit back and let them spill their guts.
	So in my case, actually I've been told that I'm free to do what I want because they'll find out about it anyway and they can use it.
	Maybe it's useful.
	It's when you become a threat that they become concerned and I'm not a threat to them because everything I've talked about already tonight is already more or less in the public domain anyway.
	Well, that's a kind of accommodation, isn't it?
	Yes, it is.
	Yeah.
	Ingo, hold on.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	We'll be right back.
	Ingo Swann is my guest.
	Good morning from the high desert.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	Want to take a ride?
	Wanna take a ride?
	Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at area code 775-727-1222.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at area code 775-727-1222 or call the wild card line at
	775-727-1295.
	To talk with Art on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them
	dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	You know, every line in the house, of course, has been ringing since Ingo Swann has been on, and I have not yet opened the line, and I'm not sure... I may not open the lines, and the reason is that Ingo does not want to comment on other remote viewers, and I know I know.
	I can see those lines blinkin' and ringin' and dialin' and... I know that you want to do exactly that and ask about other remote viewers.
	But I can't let you do that.
	Because he doesn't want to talk about them.
	By name.
	But we'll squeeze a question in generally about what's going on in the remote viewing community in a moment.
	Wanna take a ride?
	You already did.
	The moment comes after this.
	Alright, a quick note.
	A very important program tomorrow night.
	And I will be here live tomorrow night.
	Friday night to Saturday morning.
	I will be here.
	So you might want to just sort of make a mental note of that.
	That's a program you don't want to miss tomorrow night.
	Now, Ingo Swann has a couple of books that you really should read.
	And, I mean, you really should read these books.
	To order them, you can do that right now, actually at this moment.
	The lines are staffed to take your orders, and the phone numbers I'm going to give you now, so you should be writing one of them down, or calling, actually.
	It's a good time now to call.
	I don't know how much trouble you're going to have getting through, but Give it a shot.
	Here they come.
	1-888.
	These are both toll free numbers.
	453-4046.
	That's 888-453-4046.
	These are both toll-free numbers.
	453-4046.
	That's 888-453-4046.
	If that one is busy, try 877-565-8391.
	That's 877-565-8391.
	If you want to read more about what you're hearing about, obviously, this is the way to proceed.
	Now, Ingo, you specified when we talked before the show that you didn't want to talk about any other remote viewers specifically, and I respect that, and I understand that.
	But I do want to ask this.
	There is an incredible amount of dissension, backbiting, angst, difficulty between many of the remote viewers.
	What do you attribute that to?
	Well, it's an extension of what goes on in parapsychology itself.
	If you think there is dissension somewhere, you should get into the middle of parapsychology.
	I've discussed this with Dr. Charles Tart, for instance, who is a well-known parapsychologist.
	Why is there this dissension?
	Why is there this dissension?
	And he admitted he didn't know.
	But you know, parapsychology does not enjoy full scientific acceptance.
	So there are no boards or committees that are established to sort of keep this dissension under manageable control.
	And there's certainly nothing like that in the open field of remote viewing either.
	So you have people doing what they do, you know, trying to claim territory and things like that.
	My position is, in terms of the general public, that any remote viewing is better than none at all, because even bad remote viewing you learn something from.
	I think that if remote viewing is going to be of interest to the general public, then the general public has to deal with it.
	I don't have to deal with it anymore.
	I'm retired, okay?
	Yes.
	I respect anybody who undertakes To make sense out of remote viewing and all of these other things, I think probably some of them have limited frames of reference and don't build a bigger picture of things, but that's irrelevant in a way because people have to deal with something themselves in order to gain realities about it.
	For instance, you can't read any book and think you've gained any reality.
	What you've gained is maybe a bigger frame of reference to consider matters under.
	So it's hands-on and those people that took remote viewing into the open field, I think it was a very brave thing of them to do, but they have to deal with it, not me.
	Something like that.
	A remote military remote viewing program.
	Were there any people who lost it, who could not handle what they were trying to do, or the information they were receiving?
	It's another way of asking, I suppose, whether for some individuals it would be dangerous.
	I personally don't know anything of that kind.
	In fact, the military part of this only started in about 1980 and so there was 10 years preceding that, okay?
	Right.
	When this was all being developed.
	We called for volunteers at SRI to do remote viewing experiments.
	We got 200 volunteers and all of them were extremely enthusiastic.
	One of the reasons why I don't think I should be called the grandfather of remote viewing,
	I don't like the idea of being a grandfather anyway, is that it's forgotten that in order
	to make remote viewing something that amounted to something, this involved over 500 people.
	And most of them just devoted their guts and blood to making these issues real.
	And if you say, I'm the grandfather of remote viewing or Hal Puthoff is, he deserves the title, I don't.
	But if you say either one of us are, then you're obliterating the efforts of these other 500 people.
	And I don't think that's fair because they work their guts out, you know, and they resisted the bad press, they resisted the bad publicity, they resisted getting fired because they were involved and so forth and so on.
	And our experience at SRI was consistently that anybody who got involved in it was really enthusiastic and had no problems at all in handling what they got engaged in.
	The problem came before when people were afraid that their minds were somehow going to be altered.
	Sure.
	Sure.
	And if this was a strong point, they weren't accepted as a candidate for experiments.
	I see.
	Because, I mean, you don't need to deal with that, you know, when you have enthusiastic people who say, you know, well, you know, I'll do anything to learn more about myself, for instance.
	Other things that were, other programs elsewhere that were invasive and forced things in and so forth and so on, I think there were some bad reactions, but this cannot be said of the SRI program.
	Okay.
	Andrew in Phoenix asks the following of you.
	What was the scariest, strangest remote viewing session or incident you ever participated in?
	Oh, you know, Putoff and I had to agree to do what were called operational targets for the funding parties, and we did hundreds of them, you know.
	And the most awful one had to do with Targeted in what was then East Germany and they couldn't tell what was going on from the surface From photos and things, you know fly over satellite sure It was assigned.
	I didn't know whether it was just assigned by coordinate and underground On top it would seem like a prison but underground it was a biological Experimental station of all these terrible diseases and drugs and everything human biological experiment.
	Yeah Yeah, it was just dreadful and I can almost start weeping again.
	I ended up, you know, this is just so horrible that finally I just broke into tears and this was terrible, terrible, terrible.
	In remote viewing something like that, how much transference of the pain and the horror, apparently there's a lot.
	It can be almost complete.
	Early in my career I worked with the New York Police Department to help solve crimes.
	When you came across victims that had their throats slit and their hands cut off and things like this.
	Remember you can view it if you can remain objective for these things.
	You can sort of detach, but if you start experiencing what the victims went through, then your whole system thinks that's what's happening to you.
	So after two years I said, hey guys, I can't do this anymore.
	At that time there were three female psychics in New Jersey who could tolerate this.
	I said, you have to use them.
	I can't do this anymore.
	I'm not built that way.
	Even though I had a background in biology, I used to draw autopsies at the Salt Lake City General Hospital while they were being done, but there you remained objective.
	You didn't sense the sensations and so forth and so on.
	This East German thing was just awful because actually it was the first time I'd ever seen anything like that.
	And the extent of it, and the smells in these underground chambers were not to be believed.
	All of that came through?
	All of that came through.
	It was just terrible.
	Ingo, I'm looking at my own website right now, and I know you say you've only got two books, but Penetration is the first one listed.
	Penetration, A Question of Extraterrestrial and Human Telepathy.
	But it's followed by The Great Apparitions of Mary.
	Yes, that's still in print, but I didn't publish that myself.
	An Examination of the 22 Supernatural Appearances.
	That's still in print, and in my website, where that can be ordered from is in my website.
	Also, Amazon.com, by the way.
	Oh, is it?
	Oh, yes.
	Oh, great.
	You didn't know that?
	Well, actually, my royalty statements don't reflect that.
	Well, they will soon, as well as Purple Fables Quartet.
	That's still in print.
	On Amazon?
	Opening to the Infinite?
	Human Multidimensional Potential?
	Are you talking about your Nostradamus actor?
	I'm talking about a book called Opening to the Infinite.
	Human Multidimensional Potential.
	Now... That's not mine.
	That's not yours, huh?
	No.
	Well, then I don't know how we got that up there.
	You're right.
	Well, wait a minute.
	I see how it got up there.
	You did the introduction to that book.
	Oh, yes.
	Right?
	Oh, that's Alice, what's-her-name's book, My Dear Friend.
	That's right.
	Yes, she passed away.
	I see, so that's how it got up there.
	Yeah, I did the introduction to that.
	I'm very interested in the apparitions of Mary.
	What work did you do on that, and what can you tell us about that?
	Well, early on at SRI, part of our mandate was to assess this whole general field of everything, you know, and I got it.
	I said, well, you know, the apparitions of Mary are paranormal.
	We were supposed to assess the paranormal, okay?
	And the client wasn't interested in that, but I got interested in it, and I started accumulating information about these things, and these are tremendous stories.
	It took a long time to sell that book or this version of it because publishers said, well, nobody is really interested in those things.
	But these are tremendous stories.
	So I wrote it from the societal historical point of view and that just sort of reported what I could find went on at these times.
	I mean, these are really amazing events.
	So that's what that book is about.
	Were they real events?
	Oh, yes.
	Were they real events as perceived by the world's Merian apparitions?
	Were they?
	I have to accept that as so, yes.
	You do?
	Yes.
	That brings a lot with it.
	Yes, it do indeed.
	Have you ever done targets like, for example, the man Jesus, the Son of God, so said, that
	walked upon earth?
	No.
	I don't do targets where there's no feedback potential.
	I I never did one that didn't have a feedback potential.
	If you don't have feedback, then you don't know what you have.
	Anybody can say anything.
	So I have always had, right from the first, by the way, in 1970 when I started, I had to decide to do only experiments where there was Almost immediate feedback as to whether you were right or wrong or what was going on.
	I maintained that attitude up until I retired.
	So if there was no feedback potential then I did not do it.
	This isn't to say that it can't be done because I think it can, but remember I worked with I never worked with anybody else but a scientist.
	I never gave any demonstrations to anybody.
	And scientists, of course, are only interested in what can be repeated and proven.
	Right.
	And I rigorously held to that until I retired.
	You said until you retired.
	Do you continue to do work and have you expanded the work you do since your retirement, personally?
	Well, yes and no.
	I felt interested in going behind the scenes of all these things and pointing up information that's not generally available, since it's not really recognized as existing.
	If you're talking about the concrete world of physicality, you can probably get a handle on everything.
	But if you're talking about the realms of the mind, you're talking about invisible realms, which have their own phenomena.
	These are not clearly presented anywhere.
	I'm writing up what I've learned.
	And along these lines, when I'm done writing up with what I've learned, I really tend to retire.
	I'm going to get rid of all my archives and books and I'm going to go watch the grass grow.
	Or I'll come out where you are and watch the sand move around.
	You know, I was born in Telluride, Colorado, so I appreciate natural beauty really much.
	A lot of people look at the desert and they go, oh my gosh, a wasteland!
	But it's not.
	The desert's fabulous.
	Yes.
	Every once in a while I make a tour through the southwest just to look at the desert.
	It would be a good time.
	We're within a few days now of what I think is going to be about a thousand year bloom here in the desert because of the amount of moisture.
	Yeah.
	And I'm about 20 miles from Death Valley.
	And it's going to be quite a year this year.
	It's going to be gorgeous.
	Well, I probably won't make it, but I'm too busy finishing my next book.
	Which is?
	I'm not even going to say.
	Oh, how about the general topic?
	Can you talk about that?
	Power.
	Power?
	Power?
	Yes.
	What do you think all this is about?
	I always thought it was about power.
	Everything you and I have discussed tonight is about power.
	That's why I don't know how they can Well, they are not knocking down my door.
	Every once in a while I get lots of visitors from all over the world.
	They come to check me out and ask me questions and I answer them to the best of my ability.
	So that's not exactly leaving me alone.
	You can think that I'm a threat, a danger, but also I'm a resource.
	I've aligned all this data and gathered it and so forth.
	Well, let's think about this.
	Take our president, for example, President Clinton.
	I don't talk about individuals.
	Well, a generic president.
	Let's talk about a generic president.
	A generic president has an idea of a social change he wants to make, and he's going to make this by executive order.
	Can this president, this generic president, be certain that this idea, this inspiration, was his own?
	Now we're talking about power.
	Yes, I know.
	Well, if we're talking about generic presidents, it's my impression that they work for the real powers that rule the world.
	That's what I've heard, too.
	Yes.
	And in fact, you know, that's been stated, you know.
	Mr. Ford, earlier on, gave money to both parties so he could control whichever one candidate won.
	He said that in his books, you know.
	And so this has been going on since year one, I guess, you know.
	I mean, if you want to have power over somebody, you contribute to them, and then whoever wins, they're still in your pocket, type of thing.
	But whoever controls this generic president, or all generic presidents, They, too, would be perhaps subject to influence.
	Well, power is defined as control, authority, and influence over others.
	Yes.
	So this is a chain of command, right?
	Yes, sir.
	I mean, you can track it up to the top, and you can see these generic presidents are playing a part in a chain of command, you know.
	So it actually goes up higher and higher and higher.
	People who write about the power elites probably have their points, you know.
	Have you done a lot of things that you would not and could not talk about?
	Yes.
	I thought you might have.
	Listen, what an interview this has been.
	In my program I have one hour left and I can always open the lines and allow people to ask questions or I can allow you to go to bed and get a little sleep because it's like about five o'clock in the morning back there and so what I do is I leave it up to my guests always at this time To bail out and get a little bit of sleep and start their day or whatever.
	Or stay for one last hour.
	It's all up to you.
	Could we have another interview sometime?
	You bet we could.
	Okay.
	Let's do that.
	Alright.
	Then Ingo... I have an appointment at 10.30 this morning.
	Believe me, I understand.
	The world does not live as I do.
	Ingo, thank you.
	You're welcome.
	Thank you.
	You're a wonderful, wonderful interviewer.
	Your own deep, penetrating insights.
	I wish I could interview you.
	You must know everything.
	Maybe one day and go, goodnight.
	Alright, goodnight.
	We'll be right back with Open Line Unscreened Calls.
	Be it sight, sound, smell, or touch, there's something inside that we need so much.
	you The sight of a touch, or the scent of a sound, or the strength of an oak when it's deep in the ground.
	The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
	Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing How all these things in our memories soar And they use them to help us to fly!
	Right, right my sister, take this place, on this trip, just for me. Right, take a big roll, take my place, up by the
	sea, it's so easy.
	Wanna take a ride?
	Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-825-5033. First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
	The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1222.
	First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222. The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1222.
	seven seven five seven two seven twelve ninety five and a call on the phone for the international line call
	your agency operator
	and have been uh... eight hundred eight nine three zero nine zero three
	this is close to close to him without bill from the kingdom of not well that was an interview that i
	wanted to do for many years
	that was a little swan who despite his disclaimers with help at all
	all at that really began the whole thing.
	A master, if you will.
	Good morning!
	We're about to go into open line, unscreened, who-knows-what-the-hell-is-going-to-happen talk radio.
	That comes next.
	Well, as I said at the beginning of the program, there's only a couple of items that are sort of interesting
	in the news.
	One is a volcano erupting in northern Japan, Mount Usu, really just firing out hot rock gas in a plume of ash and smoke over the very snowy countryside in northern Japan.
	And, of course, the endless alien Gonzales story.
	And my turn to take on this is that it'll finally drag out so long he'll become 18 and then he'll make his own choice.
	So beyond that, there's not a lot going on in the regular news.
	There's a lot going on, however, with our sun, which continues to issue flare after flare after flare.
	A couple of X-class flares recently, biggest ones.
	And then a series of M class flares.
	It's just really going wild up there.
	And if you're listening to shortwave, if you're not listening to shortwave, you're missing out because boy, it is really hopping.
	I mean, you just can hear the whole world.
	Shortwave is really something right now.
	So actually, I have a number of things that I could bring up here.
	But what I really want to do is An hour of open lines, and I want to hear what you have to say.
	So, that's exactly what we're going to do, and here we go.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air, good morning.
	Good evening Art, it's Jim in Canada.
	Jim in Canada, you have hum in your audio.
	I'm sorry.
	It's alright.
	I've got a quick one for you.
	Sure.
	Can you have a JFK assassination line, like maybe have the relatives of witnesses call in?
	Well, how about a line for the guy on the grassy knoll?
	No, I want witnesses, relatives of witnesses.
	Why not somebody who wants to finally get something off their chest?
	Or new information.
	Well, I'll tell you what I tell everybody about the JFK thing, and that is, I don't talk about it.
	Because there is no way, absolutely no way, to know the truth, even if you heard it.
	There are so many assassination theories and thoughts and imaginations and supposed facts that, frankly, if I open a line and somebody came out and said, well, I was the guy or the gal in the grassy knoll, or Oswald did it by himself, I know that to be true, There would simply be agreement and disagreement out there.
	We would get absolutely nowhere.
	There's so much on that situation that you would never know the truth if you heard it.
	That's why I don't do it.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hey, good morning, Eric.
	Good morning.
	It's Missing Learjet Tim from Cold Lake, Alberta, Canada.
	Yes, sir.
	Heck of a compliment from Ingo Swann about being the number one interviewer.
	That was nice.
	After listening for five years, I'd have to concur with that.
	Oh, thank you.
	A hundred percent.
	You know, listening to your show last night and the excellent show tonight, that was just, you know, listening to Ingo Swann and so soft-spoken that he reminded me a lot of Father Malachi Martin.
	Yeah, wasn't he interesting?
	Oh, it was.
	It was just, you know, just like, it was like the truth of all these things he talked about.
	You know, last night's show kind of keeps coming back about these cat mutilations up in Oregon.
	And what's going on globally with more things being seen in our sky.
	You know, I got the feeling tonight that I wanted to call Inglis Swan back to active duty.
	You know, to have probably one of the best people we have on this planet when it comes to everything from intuition to remote feeling to sensory perception to really look into this.
	Well, I mean, he's already looked into it.
	Pussy floating around the whole E.T.
	question.
	No, he doesn't.
	Not at all.
	No, not at all.
	Maybe you're having Ed Davis from Illinois.
	That's right.
	Technically, tonight.
	We should, I hope the CAD mutilation, this last case is just, we've had a bunch up here in Canada.
	Actually, I was at one back in 1979 before we really knew what was going on.
	And it was just a strange looking thing.
	I went out with Imanis.
	I was with military police.
	And it happened just off a base.
	That's one of the better points I thought that was brought up last night, that nobody ever has been caught and convicted.
	Nobody.
	had a look and it was a very strange but not knowing all the background that we
	Ever.
	have today it's just like you know when is the stuff gonna stopper
	when will someone be caught convicted well that's what that's one of the better
	points i thought that was brought up last night that nobody ever has been caught
	and convicted nobody ever and and moreover
	let's consider the nature of these things uh...
	These animals perfectly skinned with no blood.
	Not possible.
	No blood in their heart.
	Not possible, in my opinion.
	And not only that, we know... No, I'm not done.
	No blood immediately around, or very little of it, compared to what had been done.
	And then, finally, very convincingly, no predation.
	No predators would touch the carcasses.
	Now, that one is really scary.
	That is very scary.
	And there's one other factor here that you know about when it comes to police work, and about convictions, and getting arrests, and The information stream you get, you know, nine times out of ten, people convict themselves by what they say or whether they give a statement, or there's an informant.
	There's nothing to do with informants in this.
	There's no information coming from second or third parties.
	This is a cold avenue.
	It's going down a dead end.
	And why is that?
	Because there's something that we don't know about that's happening here.
	And this is really big news.
	I'm with you.
	I agree completely.
	That's why we have concentrated on what's going on in Oregon.
	It's really big news.
	It has to be really big news.
	When you consider what's been going on, there is no reasonable, logical explanation.
	And occasionally I get faxes from people who say, oh, it's the Satan worshippers out there doing their thing.
	Yeah, right, sure.
	With all of the perfect surgical cuts, with the lack of blood, with the lack of any Um, you know, footprints nearby, or any other forensic evidence indicating humans had something to do with it.
	And quite to the contrary.
	And oh, by the way, how do you get a cow in a tree?
	No, it's pretty interesting stuff.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Uh, hi Art.
	How's it going?
	Okay.
	I know I probably sound like 20,000 into this.
	Yeah, you have one of the new One Step for Mankind to the rear telephones.
	Yep, well, that's all I have to talk on.
	That's alright.
	This is Scott from Tulsa.
	Yes, sir.
	I wanted to relate a related experience.
	My sister lives, my older sister lives here in Tulsa.
	My mother lived in the Dallas area.
	My younger sister, and my oldest sister is emphatically bonded to my mother.
	If my mother feels bad, my sister feels bad.
	I mean, my mother fell and broke her wrist, her arm.
	My sister could not use that arm for about two or three hours at the same time.
	I am rather familiar with this.
	I mean, I've heard about this between twins, between mother and daughter.
	Well, I'll give you a little example, alright?
	Okay.
	My mom would gladly confirm this story because she's told it to me a million times, but my grandmother now departed.
	I was very much alive when I was born, June 17, 1945.
	At the moment I was born, my grandmother, hundreds of miles away, suddenly doubled over and screamed in pain, as in labor pain, at the exact instant I was born, documented fully on both sides.
	Well, my sister has, for years, honed her mind.
	And she can go to a, like a Walmart or a Kmart, you know, where it's real, real busy.
	Yes.
	Well, before she goes, she'll cost her, I think, a parking space up front.
	You know, real close to the front.
	It'll be there.
	An empty parking place will be there.
	Well, you see... I've seen it... Huh?
	Sir, that's not...
	We were talking about that a little earlier.
	That would have to be remote influencing.
	Wouldn't it?
	In other words, you're not just picking up the fact that there's suddenly an open parking spot there because that would be abnormal.
	That would be abnormal.
	What she's doing, obviously, is causing somebody to go get in their car and leave so that she can get the parking spot.
	That would be the only real way you could account for that.
	Because otherwise they would be, you know, the laws of chance would say no way.
	Interesting.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	How you doing, Mark?
	I'm doing.
	Hey, I'm just calling about the cattle mutilation.
	Yes.
	Yeah, I think I have some insight on that.
	Do you now?
	Yeah, I worked at a rendering plant for, let's say, 10 years.
	Do you know what a rendering plant is?
	Yes, I do.
	Okay, and Bloodless skinning is not a common thing.
	It's not what?
	When you skin a calf and there's no blood.
	I'm a little nervous, sorry.
	That's alright.
	When you skin a calf and there's no blood, that's a common thing.
	Is it now?
	I've done it many, many times myself.
	Why?
	Well, no.
	Well, at rendering plants, you skin calves and then you sell the hides, you know, the tanning, you know, to get tanned and everything like that.
	Right, right.
	OK.
	What about no blood in the heart?
	OK, now that I can explain that, too.
	OK.
	When a calf has been laying, let's say, in cool weather for a couple of days, let's say, the blood congeals, I'd say, hardens.
	Yes.
	You know, if a calf has been, you know, laying around for a couple of days, You can stab it a couple of times and you'll get a little bit of blood on the knife, but it's not going to bleed.
	They did autopsies on these calves and opened up the hearts and found no blood whatsoever in the heart.
	Well, from the interview that I heard yesterday... That is what was said?
	Yeah.
	Well, he said there was still a little bit of blood.
	He said virtually none is what he said.
	Well, I think it's just It probably was hardened.
	You have explained that then.
	One more.
	About the calf in the tree?
	Now that I can't explain.
	No?
	Yeah, I can't explain that.
	And about the lack of predation?
	Excuse me?
	The lack of predation.
	In other words, the thing sitting there for X number of days, but nothing else comes along to eat it.
	Nothing will touch it.
	Yeah, yeah, and that's true.
	When I worked at the rendering plant for five years, that's what I did was pick up livestock.
	I picked everything up from horses, pigs, calves, cows.
	And when the ranchers, let's say at a dairy, when a calf expires, you know, and they Pull them off to one side.
	Yes.
	You know?
	Sometimes they'd lay out there for two, three days.
	And I have never, ever seen a predator.
	Birds or anything.
	We're not talking about a rendering plant.
	And by the way... No, no.
	I'm not talking about that.
	Hold on.
	Hold on a moment.
	Most of the situations we're talking about are out in the forest, out in the clear, where you would expect predation to occur.
	I'll tell you a little secret about rendering plants.
	Have you ever taken a pet, like a pet dog, for example, into an area near a rendering plant?
	Have you ever done that?
	Oh yeah, oh yeah.
	No, they don't like being around there.
	Don't like being around there?
	That's putting it mildly.
	They will start screeching, screaming, howling, making the most god-awful noises, and they will run from a rendering plant because they can smell what's going on.
	Yeah, well there's actually at the plant that I worked at, there used to be cats.
	People used to just drop dogs off.
	They'd be in the compound area But they wouldn't go near the, you know, the crab.
	They'd go absolutely berserk.
	So I don't know that I'm surprised that there was no predation next to that plant.
	But I don't think that explains no predation out in the forest where we're talking basically free food here from predators who would normally gobble it right up.
	I'm Art Bell.
	From the crest of a wave, it's like magic Oh, I'm rolling and riding and sleeping and sliding
	I'm a crest of a wave that's like magic.
	Oh, I'm roaming and riding and sleeping and sliding.
	It's magic I don't want your lonely mansion
	It's magic.
	I don't want your lonely mansion with a tear in every room.
	With a tear in every room All I want's the love you promised
	All I want's a love you promised beneath a halo of moon.
	Beneath the hallowed moon But you think I should be happy
	With your money and your name And hide myself in sorrow
	While you play your cheating game Silver threads and golden needles
	Can I mend this heart of mine?
	And I dare not drown my sorrows In the warm water of love
	Tell me, how intuitive are you?
	I think I should be happy With your money and your name
	And hide myself in sorrow Actually, all you've got to do is listen carefully.
	That's all.
	I'm Art Bell and we'll get back to open lines in one moment.
	Wanna take a ride?
	Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at area code 775-727-1222.
	Call 1-800-825-5033.
	First-time callers may reach Art at area code 775-727-1222.
	Or call the wildcard line at 775-727-1295.
	To talk with Art on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	Can I tame this heart of mine?
	Silver threads and baller needles Can I tame this heart of mine?
	I have intentionally altered my hours this week, my days actually,
	so that I might be with you tonight.
	So I will be here live tonight.
	I want to remind you of that.
	As a matter of fact, it's an important show.
	Richard Hoagland will be here in the first hour, followed by Major Ed Dames in the second hour.
	But it will be a very important program, and so in more ways than one, you don't want to miss tomorrow night.
	Sort of mark it off on a calendar or something.
	Well, to the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Hi, good morning, Mr. Bell.
	Good morning.
	My name is Leslie.
	I'm out of San Diego, California.
	In fact, I work at a parking lot graveyard shift.
	You do?
	Yes, I do.
	In San Diego, near the airport.
	I know exactly where you are, actually.
	Well, the thing is, I heard you talk a few times about a dream you kept having.
	Yes.
	Have you ever had the situation where you thought that you might have a psychic twin?
	Have you ever thought of that one?
	I've heard of it, but no, I haven't had that feeling.
	Well, I was married to a gentleman for 21 years, and he is a real twin, what they call a mere twin.
	Right.
	And the situation with my ex-husband was that he and his twin brother could see things out of each other's eyes.
	They were that closely connected.
	Well, how did you feel about that?
	I would say it was rather interesting, to say the truth.
	Didn't it intrude on some intimate moments?
	Once in a while it seemed like it.
	But the thing that was interesting about it was... What was your husband's first name?
	Stephen.
	And his brother?
	Melvin.
	Now Melvin is married to a lady, and he's still married to her.
	She's the same height, same hair color as I am.
	So there was never a moment in the heat of the moment where you looked up and said, No.
	Well, when I was dating Stephen, Mel said secretly that he was also in love with me, too.
	But someday, I'm considering calling you again.
	I'm also into psychic phenomena, as in the Whaley House.
	Oh, really?
	And I'm also a member of the Elkhorn Historical Society, which is where I live at, a little valley east of here called Elkhorn.
	Oh, I know it well.
	How did you absorb what you heard from Ingo Swann tonight?
	I find him rather interesting.
	One thing I was curious about asking him sometime was, would it interfere with someone who already is sensitive to the other side?
	I am.
	I have near-death experience at the age of four.
	Would it interfere with somebody sensitive?
	Well, would it interfere or would it help?
	That's what I'm curious about.
	I guess that would depend on how you used it.
	Thank you very much.
	It would depend on how you used it.
	If you listen to Ego, that's what he was saying all the way through the conversation.
	That it simply is.
	And how you use it, ethics, morality, all of that does not really enter into it, which runs in the face of, by the way, what a lot of other Remote viewers and sensitives have said that things done for ill-gotten gains or negative things like popping the blood vessel, you know, that we've talked about, that sort of thing, simply cannot be done in those realms, but the fact of the matter is they can.
	Now that's really provocative to think about, but I think he goes right on the money.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Good morning, Art Bell.
	Good morning to you.
	Yes, sir.
	Need to know something.
	This is Doug in Houston.
	Need to know?
	Well, do you have a security clearance high enough?
	Need to know basis, you know.
	Okay, well listen, I need to ask you something.
	On this long discussion, y'all had several, I think it was about a year or two ago, with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Yes.
	Did they ever find out what was on the backside of the moon?
	I've heard that several times, but I just, I didn't ever, did put one and one together.
	Did they find something on the backside, or they're just not going to really reveal it?
	Well, on the moon period, I, look, Richard C. Hoagland has talked about the The things that are on the moon many times, as well as Mars.
	And if you listen to Ingo Swann tonight, and you didn't do a double and triple take when he talked about the moon, I mean, you had to read the guy very carefully as he talked.
	No, I just woke up.
	I didn't hear.
	Oh, boy, did you miss it.
	I don't know why.
	I just woke up.
	All right.
	Well, maybe a word on that tomorrow night.
	Richard will be here in the first hour.
	Oh, he will?
	From 11 to 12?
	I'm in Houston.
	You're in Houston?
	Yes, sir.
	By the way, I destroyed you guys by accident yesterday.
	I said Houston was hit with tornadoes.
	It was Fort Worth.
	Fort Worth?
	I used to live up there pretty close.
	I said Houston just because it got mixed up in my mind because that's where my affiliate is, KTRH.
	Yes, KTRH.
	That's where I listen to them.
	Where else do I listen to 570 or 710?
	Amarillo.
	Let's see.
	That would be Cliff, Dallas, I guess.
	So it's Dallas-Fort Worth.
	And you guys are hard to get a hold of.
	Oh, we are.
	It's true.
	Yes, sir.
	Hey, y'all sound good, gentlemen.
	Thank you.
	Thank you, sir.
	See you later.
	East to the Rockies.
	You're on the air.
	Hello.
	Good morning, Art.
	Good morning.
	I'm absolutely addicted to your show.
	I could listen to three shows back-to-back and fall asleep.
	I'm the truck driver that called you a few months ago where I told you the aliens had picked up my truck.
	You remember that?
	I do.
	Yes, I do.
	Okay, yeah, I've had many more sightings.
	There was one back Oh, let's see, the 4th of August of 90.
	Do you know what, sir?
	I've got a fax from a driver like yourself who claims to have hit an alien.
	I've never heard anything like that, but there was a huge UFO August 4th of 90, and I spotted it coming back from North Carolina on my motorcycle.
	It was just an orange dot on the horizon.
	I got closer, almost into Nashville.
	I saw two airliners going south of Nashville, throwing cone trails, and one airliner going west.
	This huge object, Art, was similar to the Space Shuttle, but this thing had to be over 20 miles in length.
	Delta wings, a huge body like an airliner would have, and a great big rudder.
	You could compare the airliners to this object Compare a speck of pepper to a pepper shaker.
	That's how big it was.
	Well, my batteries are about to quit on me, Art.
	All right, I appreciate the report.
	All I can say is join the crowd of those who have seen things that, once you've seen them, you know they're there.
	I sympathize with Peter Gersten, and by the way, you're going to hear a repeat of that, and his search His suit in Arizona.
	And sometimes I feel like the futility, and Peter and I have had talks about that, of seeking information that they're not about to tell us about.
	I use the example of the Manhattan Project.
	I mean, if you had submitted freedom of information requests, had they been in existence back then, and submitted keywords Manhattan, Or Atom, or Atom Bomb, or Atomic Bomb.
	Trust me, I don't care how many millions of hits came back, you would not have received an answer that you would have been pleased with, and I think that is as true today as it was then.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hello, Oren.
	Hello.
	I had a question for you.
	Sure.
	I don't know, I could be mistaken, but I think last November, Was supposed to be the 25th anniversary of Amityville when those murders had taken place.
	Yes.
	And I understand that the family that moved into that house after those murders happened, they lived there for a month before they moved out.
	That's right.
	And they had written a book about their experiences there.
	It became a bestseller.
	Yes.
	But I never knew the name of the book or the author.
	can't find it uh... i think if you do a search on the web about amityville you'll find it very quickly
	but you don't have a name no i can't give it to you offhand uh... it may have been was at the warrens
	family in the warrens that might be or it's another case i i i may have been
	confused at any rate my last uh...
	information on that house was that it was vacant uh... so what i would uh... suggest to you is go to the
	internet go to one of the search engines you know that's good infancy
	whatever and enter amityville and see which come up with i'm sure
	that uh... you will find what you're seeking
	Thank you for watching.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	I'm on the air.
	Yes, you are.
	Nuts.
	Nuts?
	Well, this is our movie.
	This is the first time I've tuned into the show.
	Do you not want to be on the air?
	I had something very personal happen and I tripped really hard for two years.
	I was talking to someone about a month ago and he was telling me about people who claim to have been abducted and they have found implants in them.
	That's right.
	I never discussed it with anyone but I know that I've got one in my net.
	In your net?
	In my net.
	I was asleep one night.
	No, go ahead.
	Alright.
	I live in Sacramento and I was in North Sac at a boyfriend's house.
	We used to sleep out in the backyard during the summertime.
	But this is more toward fall.
	Anyway, I said, I'll be right in.
	I'm going to get something warm on.
	You said Sacramento, right?
	Yeah.
	And you used to sleep outside?
	Well, just in his house.
	His sister wouldn't let anyone in the house at night time.
	She's another subject.
	Anyway, I think she saw something that she couldn't deal with and she's just been nutty ever since.
	Anyway, this one night I'm standing out by my car and she's yelling, get out!
	Get out of the house!
	And this light came shooting through the top of the house and it was really intimidating.
	I stood there frozen for about eight hours All night long, unable to move.
	I was so scared.
	So I went home.
	I'd had enough of that, the things that I experienced.
	So I went home.
	I'd been home about five days.
	Saturday night, I slept about nine hours, got up, been up for about an hour.
	I thought, gee, I feel kind of tired.
	I think I'll just lay back down for an hour.
	I live with chronic pain.
	I don't sleep more than two or three hour stretches at a time because of the pain.
	I went to bed at 10.30 in the morning and I didn't wake up until midnight.
	I hadn't had electricity for about a week and so my room should have been pitch black.
	I just slept another 14 hours after sleeping 9 hours and I woke up just kind of disoriented feeling and my room was glowing.
	So I got up and I walked through my dressing room into the shower stall and looked out the back of my house and it was as if the fence wasn't there and the house directly behind me which same model as mine, all the windows were lit up with this
	weird orange light.
	In the kitchen sliding door there was this big pink ball, like an iridescent type of
	thing.
	It was just there for a second and it went shooting out of the top of the house real
	quick.
	I'm standing there slapping my face and pinching myself and trying to wake up.
	I was already awake but I was still trying to wake myself up because I didn't want to
	be seeing any of this.
	the next two years. I hardly stayed in my house at all.
	I mean, I couldn't deal with it.
	Well, what makes you think you have an implant in your neck?
	Well, about six months after that happened, I slept on the floor in my family room, and I didn't have any earrings on.
	I'm laying there, and I woke up to this little stick in my neck.
	This little what?
	A little stick, you know, like a pin?
	Yeah.
	And I looked around the floor, and I couldn't find anything.
	I thought, well, there had to be a staple or something in the floor that just stuck my neck, and I just dismissed it.
	Right.
	It happened again, but this time, I mean, it left a hole almost the size of a marble.
	A marble?
	Well, okay, half of a marble.
	It's a very small marble.
	About the size of a pea, actually.
	Alright.
	It's still pretty big, actually, in your neck.
	That big, yeah.
	So, I had let someone stay at this house, and I didn't even connect that at all until about a month ago, because I let someone stay at my house And the only thing I could come up with, with this thing in my neck with nothing that could have poked me in any way, was black magic.
	I was just thinking, well, someone must be practicing black magic.
	Why don't you get an x-ray or an MRI and have them take a look?
	How do I go about doing that?
	Do I have to tell them something else is wrong?
	I mean, will they x-ray something like that?
	Yes, they will.
	You might have to be a little careful about, you know, how you explain it.
	To the doctor.
	You might just say, look, I feel like there might be a foreign object in there.
	I don't know how it happened.
	It might have happened when I was sleeping.
	Don't tell them the whole story.
	I wouldn't do that.
	You can feel it.
	You can feel it.
	You can feel it?
	There's a little lump in there about the size of half a palm of your hand.
	I'll tell you, I'd get an x-ray.
	Go to a doctor.
	None of my other scars have got warm center.
	You can feel something underneath this scar.
	Well, that's enough for me.
	I would go to a doctor.
	Get an x-ray.
	I'm just kind of tripping on this because I've had periods where I've sat on my bed.
	I've just thought I've been having seizures, you know?
	Head of all seizures.
	I don't have epilepsy, but I think I have the past three years because I'll be sitting on the edge of my bed and I'll come out of it ten hours later sitting in the same spot.
	Without having gone to sleep or anything.
	Just like, I don't remember anything.
	Alright.
	And I have too many periods.
	That sounds absolutely classic.
	Alright, well you do me a favor then.
	You go get an x-ray.
	You get an MRI.
	Don't tell the doctor the whole story because then you probably won't get it.
	Just tell him you think you might have had an accident and you might have a foreign object in your neck and he will give you an x-ray.
	Or an MRI.
	Whatever is appropriate.
	Find out what's in there.
	If there's something intriguing in there, get hold of me and I'll see what I can do.
	Help you out.
	Hook you up with the right people.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Thank you, sir, so much.
	And I tell you what, advice to people like that who truly need help is always a good thing.
	You mentioned the Fort Worth tornadoes earlier.
	Yes.
	That truly is.
	And it's ironic.
	I first began listening to you with the quickening of the actual before the global storm.
	Yes.
	And I find it very amazing with everything that's going on that truly with the Mars and all that.
	You know, it's ironic.
	I think they actually showed us where we're going to find life.
	It's that little polarized region on top of Mars in that new video.
	Yes.
	What we'll have is actually NASA trying to save their butt after sending all these little probes.
	We'll probably have Mars life probably summer of 2001.
	Think so?
	I think so, sir.
	Because it's going to be right after the election.
	The gas prices will go down.
	And basically, we'll be looking at the face on Mars, I think, is just somebody like our own society leaving behind a monument to say, look, we need to learn from lessons like that.
	That we need to take care of our planet, or at least learn not to, you know, kill ourselves.
	Well, the argument that I found compelling, thank you, from last night, was that there are a number of artifacts here on Earth, done by earlier man, that were also, for inexplicable reasons, obviously only intended to be seen from space, not on the ground.
	I mean, it's something you wouldn't even see on the ground.
	But things that could only be seen as you backed away from the planet, or you were beyond its atmosphere and looking down, or even farther back.
	That's our planet.
	So, why is it unreasonable to assume a prior civilization on Mars would not have, at a very relatively early stage of development, done the very same thing?
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Extinguish thy radio.
	It's off.
	Alright.
	Yeah, down here in North Carolina.
	What part?
	Lumberton.
	We're about 75 miles from Wilmington, North Carolina.
	Oh yes, the ground zero for every storm coming anywhere near.
	Yeah, I've talked to you before.
	Right.
	Back after Floyd.
	Yes.
	Yeah, we've been getting a lot of contrails again.
	Yes, I know you have because I've been getting a lot of faxes and email about it.
	I found a place near White Oak, North Carolina, which is right near here, where UFO activity is pretty hardcore.
	I got a guy, I'm trying to get him to call in to you.
	We've seen all kinds of things over there.
	It's kind of near Fort Bragg, North Carolina.
	Oh?
	Chase looked like a football shaped item that would let the planes catch up to it and then it would just dart off left or right.
	Like it was toying with them?
	Yeah, just playing.
	There's definitely a lot to this around here and people in this area don't really pay that much attention to it except this group of people that I'm with.
	We're starting a fan club down here.
	Well, there's something to it, sir.
	Uh, there's definitely something to it.
	Listen, my program is over.
	I must go.
	So you get to tell everybody good night.
	Okay.
	Good night, America, and keep looking up in the sky.
	That's right.
	Good night, America.
	I was born in North Carolina, but I kind of lost all that, you know?
	Y'all.
	Anyway, That's it for tonight.
	I will be here tomorrow night.
	You don't want to miss tomorrow night.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.

▲