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March 14, 2000 - Art Bell

02:33:09

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Richard C. Hoagland - Mars Panel Discussion

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37:34

richard c hoagland

47:13

thomas charles van flandern

18:45

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		The wonder of flowers to be covered and men should burst up through tarmac to the sun again, or to fly to the sun without burning a wing, to lie in the meadow and hear the grass sing, which in our memory is all for the uncle.
		Oh, my God.
		Take me a place on this trip.
		Just for me.
		And you can't keep me apart.
		Thank you.
		Take a big ride, take a piece, take our free.
		Wanna take a ride?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
unidentified		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		Post-time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
		The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		And to reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Arcel on the Premier Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Last hour, we had what I will call incident in Arkansas.
		And we had two eyewitnesses, Peter Davenport here from the National UFO Reporting Center in Seattle, Washington, along with Jane, we'll call her Jane, who saw this object, which turned, she said, day to night,
		night today, actually, excuse me, night today, white light, and then a red spherical object with sort of dancing, I don't know, licks of fire coming from it.
		She was followed by Mr. Al Collier, just outside Little Rock, Arkansas, who heard all the reports and took a digital camera and went out to the site of this, well, what are we going to call it?
unidentified		Crash?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of this presence of some sort of craft?
		Of a meteorite?
		We don't know.
		He took photographs of at least of one of them.
		Really bizarre stuff.
		He said the firemen were describing the trees as dripping fire from the top of the trees.
		But they weren't burned at the top.
		They were burned at the bottom, inches into the tree.
		Really, really a bizarre story.
		And before we begin with Richard C. Hoagland and company, and there's plenty of company, a young lady who's an airline hostess, I guess, stewardess, on a major airline.
		Where are you, ma'am?
		Hello?
unidentified		In Texas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're in Austin, Texas now?
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you want to give us your first name or no name?
unidentified		It's Carolyn.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Carolyn?
		Yes.
		So, you're a stewardess?
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Big airline?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you were flying on that night?
unidentified		Yes.
		Well, it was Sunday night.
		And did you want me to go ahead and describe it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I sure do.
unidentified		Okay, we were flying approximately 32,000 feet, going about, I would say, 525 miles an hour.
		That's whatever you want to call it.
		And we were going from Memphis to St. Louis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		St. Louis.
unidentified		And it was approximately 9.10 p.m.
		And our flight path crosses the northeast section of Arkansas into Missouri.
		Right.
		And I was serving first class, and as I was bent over serving 1A, which is on the left side of the aircraft, I noticed that my eyes indicated this movement coming up on us, I'd say at least 700 miles an hour, which was faster quite a bit than what we were doing, which is something I very rarely ever see, if anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Probably something you don't want to see.
unidentified		No, and if you put your arm out at length and hold a nickel, it was about that size.
		And it was round, and it was kind of a cloudy, misty-looking surface on it.
		And it was changing kind of color to a light embedded light.
		You know, this thing is not a plane because it doesn't have its lights on it.
		So I asked the lady just to make sure I wasn't seeing anything, so she saw it, and it was coming up on her.
		And she said, yes, I do, and I don't know what it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At your apparent altitude above you or below you?
unidentified		I'm sorry.
		I would say that it was about 28,000 feet.
		It wasn't that far below us.
		And it was coming up.
		And it was out on our left wing.
		I would say, oh, I would say a couple thousand feet, maybe over.
		But anyway, it was coming up.
		And all of a sudden, the light on it went out.
		And we strained our eyes.
		And every so often, which didn't, I guess the next 10 seconds, we could see sparks going over the top of this metallic dome looking thing.
		It was like a spherical metallic ball.
		And when the light went over it, you could kind of see the metal shining on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what we're.
unidentified		And so I rushed out to the cockpit to inform the captain.
		And of course, you know, they're saying, oh, what, you think you see a UFO?
		Well, I said, well, you need to check on it.
		You know, it's off.
		It's coming up on our left side.
		So I went back to see what the lady saw again to look out, and she said it went underneath us and to the other side.
		So I went to the other side of the aircraft, and I couldn't see it anymore.
		But it was close enough to where you can detect the metal and the metal spherical look to it.
		But the white light and the reddish light went out, and then it formed this sparks over the very top of it.
		And I'd never seen anything like it before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then I guess when you heard these two in the last hour, you went, wow, that's what I saw.
unidentified		Right, and I thought, right, and I was a little bit concerned because I thought, well, maybe I was seeing things, but the lady and other passengers confirmed that they could not identify it.
unidentified		And it was flying too fast for any aircraft that I've ever witnessed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so neither the pilot nor co-pilot saw it?
unidentified		No, And they didn't want to talk about it either.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They didn't want to talk out.
unidentified		No.
		And I was, of course, you know, I kept talking about it, and they just, well, nothing was reported, so we're not going to say anything.
		So I said, well, I reported it.
		The passengers reported it, but you're not going to say anything or ask anything.
		Well, we haven't heard anything.
		So that was it.
		They wouldn't talk about it.
		Obviously.
		No guts, no glory, okay?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No guts, no glory.
unidentified		As my brother in Dallas says.
unidentified		No guts, no glory.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, I can't tell you.
		I wish you would contact if you've got the guts.
		I don't know about the glory, but I sure would love to have you contact Peter Davenport.
unidentified		Well, I actually did just before you.
unidentified		I hope you don't get upset I called him before you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, of course not.
unidentified		But I did want to report that, and I did leave a phone number for Peter to call if he'd like.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In that case, he, I'm sure, is quickly checking his machine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Aunt.
unidentified		Okay, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And good night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, pilots, they don't like to report those things.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, he has won an Angstrom Science Award.
		He was an advisor to NASA and to Walter Cronkite during the big years of the U.S. space program.
		He is Richard C. Hoagland.
		He has been on sort of a series of nights in the first hour, I think last week, a couple of nights, when we were all anticipating the Mission to Mars movie, which we're going to talk about because I has Richard.
		And boy, we've got a lot to talk about.
		And hanging on the line is David Giamarco.
		We'll get to him in a moment and tell you all who David is.
		I know some of you may have not caught the first hour last week, so we'll be starting for some of you from ground zero.
		But here is from near Albuquerque, high up in the mountains, Richard C. Hoagland.
		Richard, welcome.
unidentified		Yes, near extensive Albuquerque.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Richard, do you have any comments?
		I just had sort of a little bonus interview there.
		A stewardess in the first-class section serving the customer in 1A, and you know where that is if you've done a lot of flying.
		And she saw what all of these other folks saw.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, what's even more extraordinary is I happen to know this person.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now that.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And when you said you had a young lady who was a stewardess, I turned to Robin and I said her name, and sure enough, it was her.
		And it's fascinating because she's a very good witness.
		You know, she's grounded.
		if you can consider someone who spends most of their time in the air as being grounded.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard, the world is...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know the world is small, but it's not that small.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, she has a predilection and an interest in this, and she has spent a lot of time in the air.
		When other people just kind of glance out at the night sky if they're serving, she's actually looking.
		So being at the right place at the right time, she, I guess, saw something pretty interesting and confirmed that there was something quite remarkable in the skies over Arkansas that night at that time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And furthermore, what she describes is very consistent with aerodynamic behavior.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Remember how she talked about the sparks going over the dome?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, if for some reason this thing was emitting some kind of luminescent particles, then the flow patterns, as she described, would be exactly what you'd expect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, somebody came out and dug up something and took it away, and we've got photographs of the area.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and you don't do that with a meteor.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I mean, these days, you know, if NASA finds a meteor, they, you know, go to Congress and say, look, we may have life in it.
unidentified		That's right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Give us more money.
unidentified		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess that's what we do here, the inexplicable.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it only goes to show you, Art, the Bell family, as I was saying earlier, is coast to coast and beyond.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And it's those of us that really want to get to the bottom of this that are ultimately going to make a difference, I guess.
unidentified		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's talk about Mission to Mars.
unidentified		Oh, an exquisite experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You saw it which day?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I saw it Saturday night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was Friday night.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Here in Albuquerque.
		And the theater was packed.
		And fortunately, they had arrived earlier and gotten tickets, otherwise, we would not have gotten in.
		What's remarkable at that level is that there has been this incredible drumbeat of negative because I have never seen a film, a major motion picture film since maybe, oh, I don't know, The Bonfire of the Vanities, which was a film done with Bruce Willis as one of the stars and directed by De Palma, which has received so much pre-negative publicity.
		So I was going in expecting, you know, grimly, well, maybe we're going to threw a dog here.
		And remember the facts through that cheer for the folks that are dying?
unidentified		Yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm looking at my watch and I'm watching the stuff and I'm thinking, this person is Dingbats.
		This is a good film.
		This is, you know, it's the 90s.
		I mean, it's late 90s, early 2000, and it's not 2001 because De Palma obviously was going for story and character and involvement and warm, fuzzy, emotional stuff.
		It's a very interesting scene with the young astronaut and his son who's worried that daddy's going to be away for a year or two years.
		I'm sitting there wondering, why are people so pissed off at this movie?
		And the more I watched, the more that thought became a very important point of analysis because it's almost like you have two different moviegoers that have gone and seen this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know why they're pissed.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Those that love it or those that like it and those that really hate it.
unidentified		Yep.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And the fact that, I mean, look, the worst thing you can say is there are a lot of missed opportunities.
		Now, I'm prejudiced because I happen to know a great deal of things that could have been put in this movie, which would have made it the most extraordinary film of all time, but that's me.
		That's because of the research we're doing.
		The fact is that if you're going as a moviegoer, as looking at this as a work of art that has to be internal to itself, which is the only way you can really view these things, a lot of the feedback I'm getting is from folks who say, hey, it's pretty damn good, and the effects are extraordinary, and the feeling of being on Mars and over Mars is wondrous.
		And the end scenes, when they get to the MacGuffin, as Hitchcock used to say, is done with grandeur and With hope and with, I mean, it's got a lot going for it.
		This film is not a dog.
		So then, why all this publicity that it is?
		Why did CNN, for instance, review it and say this movie is the worst of all time and it gives bad names to bad movies?
		Which I think is slightly over the top.
		It's almost as if there had been a frenetic campaign, a political campaign across this past weekend to keep the American people from going to see this movie.
		Oh my gosh, you don't suppose they wouldn't want us to see a movie about Sidonia and the other things on Mars, do you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It didn't work.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Not at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand they made a very great deal of money.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		$23.1 million, which turns out to be the second highest gross for March of all time and the highest film gross for this year.
		We're well, you know, we're three months into 2000.
		So this film has opened wide.
		It's opened handsome.
		And what's really interesting is the best reviews come from young folks, from 13, 12, 10-year-olds.
		I have a friend who's in the film business.
		She's an executive.
		And her daughter, who's 13, has seen everything, been everywhere, done everything, and reported when they were coming out of the theater, she says, mommy, this is the best movie I've ever seen.
		And it's because it connected to that level.
		It is a children's movie, in part.
		I mean, he's aiming, obviously, for the next generation, for whom it will be normal to think about going to Mars and what's waiting on Mars and what it has done to those of us on Earth and a revised view of who we are and our history and where we come from.
		It's obvious that's one of De Palma's objectives in this film, and apparently he really brings it off for that age case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Brian DePalma is still refusing to be interviewed on the film.
unidentified		He is missing.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Although we lose from David shortly on that.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Speaking on CNN's Pinnacle Program on Sunday, March 12th, NASA's Dan Golden said human beings will be setting foot on Mars in no less than 10 years and no more than 20.
		Now, that doesn't quite follow faster, better, cheaper, unmanned, and all the rest of it.
		10 years and no more than 20.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Wait a minute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Golden's timetable and women was 30 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		30 years.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		What happened across this weekend to cut it down to 10?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You don't suppose that the ending of the De Palma film is telling us what Golden and company are going to drop on the American people as a way to spur the Congress to appropriate the money to do a John Kennedy within the 10-year time frame, which, of course, from this year would be 2010.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, Richard, I saw the movie Sunday, and we've had a mic.
		I disagree with you.
		However, there were spectacular messages in the movie.
		Not only that, but most of all, Sedonia.
		We'll talk about that.
		But there were other things that need to be discussed about this movie.
unidentified		Things that were all wrong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so we'll get to those.
		And Mr. Giamarco, coming up, we're going to check all this out.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		You've got to think about wasting my time to get out.
		No, no, no, no, no.
		I'm going to do it all before I get up before I get out.
		And we're going to be.
		Wanna take Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
		The wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		And to call it on the full-free international line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard C. Hoakland is here in a moment.
		Mr. David G. Marco will be here.
		He's been, well, actually, he's in Hollywood right now, trying to follow the Topama Trail, I guess.
		So we'll get a report from him and discuss this movie in a little more detail.
		But just flashing back now to the incident in Arkansas, I got this facts.
		Art, the crash and cover-up of the object in Arkansas sounds like a repeat of what happened in 1947.
		Al's description of the field being plowed up sounds like what happened after the object at Roswell was recovered.
		Like the rancher in Roswell, the farmer who owned the field intimidated into silence.
		The presence of magnesium at the large burn site sounds like a component of what was found in Art's parts, parts that came from the Roswell craft.
		The breakup of an electrogravitic craft would be the only logical explanation for the magnesium-ringed craters, the size of basketballs, the weird lightning seen by Jane, and the bizarre burn marts among the trees.
		This crash, I'll put a question mark there, is obviously another confirmation supporting the existence of electrogravitic craft based on hyperdimensional technology.
		The same technology that has been described all these years on your show by Richard C. Hoagland.
		Yours truly, Daniel Perez, Jackson, Michigan.
		And I thought that fit in quite well.
		Something for you all to think about.
		We'll be right back.
		By the way, folks, the current issue of Time Magazine hitting the newsstands right now, and in case you Don't get time, you can go to Richard Hoagland's website and it reviews the movie.
		And let me read you one key paragraph in Time magazine.
		Quote: This solemn, often silly, sometimes beautiful space drama, surely the least fictitious film of director Brian DePama's career, echoes, listen now, Richard C. Hoagland's 1987 book, The Monuments of Mars.
		Hoagland postulates that the planet was once inhabited by superior beings on Earth.
		So that's what Time Magazine said.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You know, when I was called and told this was in this week's Time, you could have knocked me over with a proverbial feather because, my God, there is a God.
		Somebody remembered, the guy's name is Richard Corliss, who was one of the senior writers at Time.
		David G. Marco actually tried to call him today to get, you know, back to when I originally published The Monuments of Mars, A City on the Edge of Forever, back in 1987.
		And, you know, when he was sitting through it, obviously he had some thoughts like I had.
		You know, can you imagine how I must have felt sitting there, been at this almost 20 years, trying to tell people what NASA's been hiding from us.
		I'm sitting there, and 20 minutes into the film, suddenly there's this spectacular scenery of Mars, and in huge, you know, Sans Serif yellow letters, it says Sidonia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sidonia.
		Okay, now I just want to give you my quick, I didn't think the movie was that great, Richard.
		So in that, we disagree a little bit.
		It was a $120 million affair.
		And here's what I see wrong with the movie.
		Number one, as you just pointed out, it said Sidonia.
		NASA consulted.
		NASA was all over this film.
		Every patch on, every uniform said NASA.
		NASA consulted.
		NASA was all over it.
		There's no way in hell NASA would have made a film about Sidonia.
		No way that was wrong with that movie.
		The second thing.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's like being a little bit pregnant as the old man.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Item number two.
		We never saw anything blast off.
		In other words, we never saw the launch from Earth.
		Either one.
		For $1, you could have a launch.
		You could have some kind of spacecraft that would launch from Earth, and they never bothered to show that.
		They showed what?
		They showed a supposed international or world space station.
		That's all we ever got to see.
		Now, I understand that mission Mars would leave from a space station, but still you would expect to see some sort of advanced craft capable of leaving the atmosphere that's gone beyond the shuttle.
		We never saw any of the world's press.
		We never saw NASA at mission control.
		All we saw was this world space station with this German scientist who was making every decision involving both of the missions, apparently, to Mars.
		That's all we ever saw.
		A German guy.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Hey, yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		During a big WSS tag.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		WSL.
		Which was probably World Space Station or something like that.
		Who knows?
		And then, finally, obviously, this was a secret mission.
		It had to be a secret mission, Richard.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's where we agree.
		Totally.
		And when I say great, I'm not talking aesthetically alone.
		I'm talking about a true work of art has to have multiple layering.
		It has to have complexity.
		It has to be a reason why you go back and see it again and again.
		This has a lot of complexity and a lot of skullduggery.
		And what you have to know is how to crack the code.
		And you're well on your way to cracking the code of this film.
		Because I think Brian DePalma suckered NASA, gave them a coded film that would communicate all the critical, important stuff, and his absence is because he doesn't want to face the heat from the people that he turned around and stabbed in the back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But there's no way that NASA could have been involved in a close consultation with this movie without knowing that it was Cydonia and it was going to be about the face.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, that was central to the movie's plot.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But if you look at a film, I don't know how many films you've seen in script form versus on the screen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There are a lot of people that don't know, particularly if they're coming from a technical agency, how to read a script and understand how it's going to hit people on the screen.
		I'll give you an example.
		One of the things to me, and remember folks, we warned you, we said, go see this movie over the weekend because next week, Tuesday, we're going to talk about it.
		So if you haven't seen it, this is a reason to keep places here that are going to be blown.
		There's that touching scene in the barbecue scene up near the front where the black astronaut is very concerned.
		His little kid says, Daddy, who's going to read to me?
		And he says to his son, look, I'll take the book with me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And you read it every night, and we'll read it separately.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And then when we get back together, we will have the experience of doing it together.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, the technology in 2020, which is when this film is set, will be wideband laser communication.
		We saw that later in the film where they were seeing the World Space Station and the guys on the space station were seeing the roof.
		So we know there was full-color wideband communication limited by the speed of light.
		This astronaut's son, I mean, NASA would create a situation so the families, even as they're doing on the shuttle these days, would have family time, downtime, where he could read to his son from Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But that would indicate an open mission.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		So what you're seeing is a great artist showing us bits and pieces, giving us clues that this was a program.
		Now, what folks in the audience don't know, and maybe you don't even remember, is that we've discussed on this program in years past that headquartered out of NASA Lewis, which is now called the John Glenn Research Center, where I was invited three times to bring my Sidonia team and research and to brief the denizens of NASA Lewis,
		the NASA rank and file, there was a bit of skull duggery detected by Congressman Walpey some years ago, Congressman from Michigan, when he was reviewing a nuclear program based at NASA Lewis.
		This was the SNAP 100 reactor.
		It was widely known that if this reactor was put into a program, all out budget and NASA and the Congress and all that, it would be the core nuclear reactor of a mission to Mars.
		And what Wolfe found from the director's office were a series of memos around the SNAP 100 program, instructing these at NASA Lewis on how to launch and steal in every way but loose to the Congress, to the press, to anybody inquiring about this program and the uses for that reactor.
		And when he blew the whistle heading all of NASA, who'd been brought in to remedy the aftermath and the catastrophe in the wake of the Challenger disaster, he was going to clean house.
		And suddenly, George Bush and Dan Quayle fired him and brought in Dan Golden, who had spent 30 years in black ops projects at TRW in California and who had started his NASA career as an engineer at NASA Lewis back in the 60s.
		What De Palma seems to be telling us in this film, and the reason there was no surprise and no forewarning that they were going to Sidonia, is because in the secret program, everybody would know they were going to the one place on Mars that has the interesting, important.
		And nowhere in the film do two guys turn to each other, particularly in the ending where the extraordinary connection between Mars and the Martians and ancient civilizations on Earth and life itself on Earth is laid out in a pretty amazing visual tour de force.
		Nowhere does one astronaut turn to the other and say, gosh, how are we going to tell the folks back home?
		Because, of course, they're not going to tell us.
unidentified		None of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		None of that is.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		This is De Palma's major fulfillment of the Disney trailer.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Remember the Disney trailer that was causing all the commotion last week?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That you're going to cover up with real images of Sidonia.
unidentified		Oh, yes.
unidentified		On March 10th, the conspiracy will be exposed.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You know, you think holding them in there writing their copy, right?
unidentified		Well, you did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Look, everybody needs to know.
		You wrote the book on this, and because the film decided not to credit, I'm sure glad Time magazine did.
		I mean, this has been virtually your adult life's work.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, for the last 20 years it has, because it's important.
		Look, if we really are not alone, if we really have the lineal ancestral roots that go to a place like Mars, if somehow Mars has intruded in our biosphere and has tinkered and changed and tweaked and made us who and what we are in the environment, what it is today, we need to know.
		And NASA did a report, as we all know, the Brookings report, 30 years ago, where it basically said, you know, if we find it, we're going to hide it because you can't take it.
		Brian DePalma, I think, sucker-punched NASA.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, that's a good word.
		Let's bring David Giamarco on and find out whether Brian DePalma sucker punched somebody or got sucker punched himself or what in the world's going on.
		David, welcome to the program.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		Hi, Richard.
		Hi, David.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Explain to the audience, David, who you are, please.
unidentified		I'm a reporter for the National Post and a lot of other publications in North America and syndicated in Europe and Asia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Post in Toronto, is that correct?
unidentified		Correct.
		Okay.
		And can I just say something, Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You sure may.
unidentified		I had to leave the Playboy Mansion early today to come do the show, so I think you owe me big.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You left the Playboy Mansion to come and do the show?
unidentified		I was there doing an interview with you, Hafner.
unidentified		I told him to do some more digging and do the show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well.
unidentified		So you owe me big.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're crazy as a loon.
		You bet.
		I would have stayed, but I'm glad you didn't.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		If you go down on our site on theartbell.com and find David Giamarco's name under tonight's guest, there's a link there over to Enterprise to the interview that David did with me some weeks ago for the Canadian National Post, which is called The Real Dirt on Mars.
		And we posted the whole article.
		It actually is quite beautiful.
		It's a four-color, glossy magazine on Sunday called The Marquee, right, David?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that's how the two of you became connected.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's how we met.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		David, you've obviously also seen something strange in the fact that Mr. Debama, you know, on the eve of his $120 million baby would not be interviewed.
		I don't know, hiding out, if that's the right word, but not granting interviews.
		Totally bizarre.
		And you're in Hollywood right now, to some degree, aside from visiting the Playboy Bunnies, trying to find what's going on.
		So what does your nose tell you there?
unidentified		Well, you know, as I mentioned last week, it was just the strangest, oddest thing that De Palma would just take off and disappear and not talk to anybody, not follow up after the press weekend by doing at least phone interviews or satellite interviews or any of that.
		So I talked to Brian DePalma's office today and mentioned, you know, I was at the press weekend and I wanted to do a follow-up with Brian.
		I wasn't able to get the interview at that time.
		And she said, well, fax it over to us and we'll get it to Brian and see.
		And I said, well, is it true he's in Europe?
		Because we were told at the time, the first story was that Brian was sick and that's why he canceled all his interviews.
		Then the next story we heard was that he was at one of the screenings and saw the poor reception it was getting from the press and canceled all those interviews and left for Europe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was that a rumor?
unidentified		These were from sources within the company.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, he was sick of North America.
unidentified		Possibly.
		Possibly.
		So he left for Europe is what we heard.
		So I asked her today, well, I said, is Brian here in the country or is he in Europe?
		And she said, oh, no, he's here.
		And I said, oh, because I heard he left for Europe.
		And then she said, well, maybe he's traveling.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
unidentified		So even she didn't want to reveal where he was.
		So that's how it was left.
		So I'll be following up and seeing.
		And I said to her, you know, it's a shame.
		I said, he's had, you know, he has the number one movie over the weekend.
		So, you know, it'd be great to get him on the phone, at least talk to him about this movie.
		And, you know, so she said, well, you know, we'll see what we can do.
		And it was sort of left at the hat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Gee, what do we imagine, David?
		Could he be hiding from bad reviews that came out initially?
		Or could he be really pissed off about something, something he wasn't allowed to put in the movie that he wanted to?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but the thing is, Argy, if you go to the Time magazine piece, which also is available on your site under my name, he says there are parts of it that are lyrical, that are beautiful, and the ending is exactly what you'd want.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And, I mean, it's a very positive review for this film.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, he did use the word silly as well.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But there are silly parts of every movie, all right?
		I mean, we can start talking about all kinds of other movies.
		That doesn't make the whole thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, but there were a lot of things wrong with this movie, and I outlined a few for you that I thought were wrong.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, you're talking about omissions, all right?
		And I'm telling you that that's deliberate.
		That De Palma has structured a piece here to communicate multi-leveled information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		David, have you seen the movie?
unidentified		Oh, yes, twice.
unidentified		Saw it in L.A. about three weeks ago now, and then caught most of it again at a screening in Toronto.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And after seeing it for a second time, your impressions were what?
unidentified		It was an okay movie.
		You know, I was intrigued by the story, but, you know, and DePalma certainly is a very technically proficient director and knows how to put a lot of style into his, you know, his work on screen.
		But as I mentioned last week, I just found, you know, the character development really shallow and a lot of the lines pretty clunky.
		And it was the writing.
		You know, by the end of the film, I was pretty intrigued with it.
		I thought the ending was the strongest part of the film.
		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I agree.
		I certainly agree.
		But it was not, to me, as contact was, it was not a memorable film that indelibly is imprinted on my brain for all time.
		Not that level of movie.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, but remember, you deal with this subject matter almost every night.
		For most Americans, this will come as a startling revelation that Mars somehow reached into the nursery and affected, created, managed the origin and evolution of life on Earth up to and including Homo sapiens.
		That is going to be a stunner for a lot of people.
		In fact, I said the other night when I was doing a show in Canada that it's going to make the evolutionists and the creationists pissed off at De Palma because he hits them both over the head.
		Well, for most people, that is a pretty amazing piece of film.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll tell you a little secret, Richard.
		I was in a theater with only about 10 other people here in Nevada.
		I went to a midday noontime showing.
		There were about 10 people there.
		One of them I know personally, very much a religious fundamentalist, who I was quite surprised to see there.
		And he did not greet that film well.
		I glanced over several times during the film, and he was not a happy camper at all.
		I was surprised to see him at the film at all.
		All right, both of you, hold on.
		We'll be back to you after the break.
		We've got a break.
		You're at the top of the hour.
		So stay right where you are.
unidentified		This is Coast to Coast A.M. We've got to get right back to where we're coming from.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right back to where we started from.
unidentified		We've got to get right back to where we've got it from.
unidentified		Home.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sidonia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Stay right there.
unidentified		Stay right there.
		When you first came my way, I said no one would take your way.
		You get hurt, you get hurt.
		I don't know if they're changes to coming, no doubt.
		It's been on school long time with no peace of mind.
		And I'm ready for the time school gets set.
		Call Arch Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-line callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
		And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		To reach out on the Toll-Free International line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Arpell, Flombart Kingdom of 9.
		It is indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard C. Hoagland is here along with David Giamarco, who's in California right now, trying to get to the bottom of what's going on with Mission to Mars.
		It was an intriguing in many, many ways.
		I thought not necessarily a great movie, but an intriguing movie that left as many questions as it answered.
		So we'll get back to Richard and company in a moment.
		Stay right where you are.
		All right, once again, back to Richard C. Hoagland and David Giamarco.
		And a lot of people are going to say, well, what's the big deal?
		Come on, it's just a movie.
		Well, it's really more than a movie in so many ways because of what it says and what it does not say.
		And so we're following it very closely, getting a lot of different reactions.
		David, you're back on.
		Richard, you're back on.
		David, just one more question from me.
		And that is, as you listen in Hollywood, what are the rumors about this?
		David, are you there?
unidentified		Yoshi, can you hear me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, yes.
		What are the rumors in Hollywood about this?
		I mean, when you have your ear to the ground, what are you hearing?
unidentified		Well, I mean, it's funny.
		The trade papers here in Los Angeles, The Hollywood Reporter and Variety, you know, I was reading Variety today, and they had given Mission a Mark.
		Like, they completely panned this movie.
		And the trade paper, Variety, usually is pretty kind to most movies.
		They're pretty even.
		It's rare to see them pan a movie.
		And they completely panned this movie to the point that they said it's like the worst film of the new millennium and goes down in the record books as the most horrible.
		You know, I mean, you guys both saw the film.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's not that bad.
		No, no, Richard, I think, liked it About an eight or a nine on a scale of ten.
		I liked it about a three or a four, not that much.
		But I was intrigued by what it did say and what it didn't say.
		In other words, it's an intriguing film to me.
		And apparently you felt somewhat the same way, David.
unidentified		Yeah, and you know, talking, I was doing some interviews for another film this weekend, the Ridley Scott movie Gladiator.
		And I was talking with, you know, some of my colleagues again about this.
		And, you know, quite frankly, they were just pretty non-plussed about the whole thing.
		They were, you know, they had moved on to the next film, and they, quite frankly, the film opened, and they didn't care too much about it.
		I had mentioned I had called NASA about this to get their reaction to the movie and what developed from that.
		And their reaction to me was, wow, you're actually doing real journalism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I actually saw what I consider to be a very good movie today.
		In fact, an incredibly good movie called The Green Mile.
		And I recommend that to anybody.
		My God, what a movie.
unidentified		But the funny thing, and I mentioned this to Richard, is in the Richard Corliss review in Time magazine this week, he obviously credits Richard Hoagland's research for this film, the basis for this film.
		And yet, in the press kits for Mission to Mars, the press notes, there are 80, 90, some odd pages in the press notes.
		There is not one mention at all of Richard's work.
		It's attributed basically just to the screenwriters, and you're made to believe that they just brought this out of their heads.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, you know, okay, fine.
		Obviously, I would attribute that to NASA consulting.
		In other words, NASA would no more let Richard's name be mentioned in that movie than the man and moon.
		But they also wouldn't let it be told about Sidonia.
		And they did.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Unless, Art, there is a fast-track, hidden agenda, because look at what we've been saying for the last couple weeks.
		Even before we knew all the content, and DuPalma had disappeared weirdly and all that, we wrote a review, which is on our site, Mission to Mars, where we laid out the case that this film was designed by NASA to telegraph something to the general American people.
		That this film was the beginning of what Steve Bassett, who's going to be on later, has talked about for a couple of years now, the process of disclosure.
		Now, look what happened the same weekend that this film debuts.
		Suddenly, Dan Golden, who was the administrator of NASA, brought in by George Bush to take the place of the astronaut who used to head the program, who was going to get to the bottom of why NASA was telling reporters in Congress that it was going to lie to everybody about things related to Mars and the SNAP 100 reactor.
		Dan Golden says on Pinnacle, on CNN on Sunday, that suddenly we're going to be on Mars within 10 years.
		Now, politically, there's no way the American people do not have this burning desire.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not even sure about scientifically at the pace we're going right now.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's another interesting discussion.
		I have a feeling that we know much more now than we knew before Kennedy committed us to Apollo.
		And in fact, yeah, if you had any kind of commitment from Congress and the American people, we could easily go in 10 years because we've got all the bits and pieces.
		We don't have to invent almost anything.
		It's all there to be reassembled in various new ways, but we don't have to invent from scratch, which we did with Apollo.
		But the fact of the matter is Dan Golden suddenly saying within 10 years, now wait a minute, Daniel, my boy, unless you somehow dangle in front of the American people or in front of Congress or both a real juicy reason to go to Mars, you ain't going to get a dime to go to Mars, particularly after you keep losing all these unmanned missions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So their juice is Sidonia.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So the juice is Sidonia.
		As I said in the Monuments of Mars, a city on the edge of forever, Sidonia is the reason to commit to go with men and women to Mars.
		And that's what Time magazine is trying to gently tell everybody.
		I mean, this is a wondrous story and a layered mythological tale of cross-currents of friends and foes and enemies and black ops and secrets and half-truths.
		I mean, this is, that's why I think this film is a really neat film, not because of what you see on the screen, but in part what you don't see on the screen, what you see on CNN instead, as the film is making $23 million on the first weekend, and all the press in the world is trying to tell you, don't go see this horrible film.
		I mean, the same network that said this gave bad movies a bad name has the head of NASA saying we're going to go in 10 years to Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, wait a minute, what's going on?
unidentified		David, when I called Richard Corliss today to find out where he got his information for his article, because he was really the only other major reporter to attribute this film's science to Richard.
		And I got his voicemail, and it said that he was out of the country until March the 20th.
		So maybe he's out of the country with Brian DePalma.
		Those two took off together.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		They're both hitchhiking across Czechoslovakia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But no, it almost looks as if we have friends and allies out there.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		When I say we, I mean the forces of trying to get to the bottom of this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And they have used this film on both sides.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Trial balloon.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		As a trial balloon, as a running up the flagpole, as I said in the David's piece, to see what's going to happen.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It has plausible deniability written all over it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, now I've got questions for the both of you, or a question anyway.
		$120 million.
		I did not see $120 million in that movie.
		What I saw, I think, could have been done for $50, $40, $50 million.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		This is fascinating because as you know, Art, we've talked about this the last couple of days.
		I've had several different people, some of whom are in the industry, some of whom are not, but who are moviegoers.
		So, I mean, we're all kind of experts as to how much you see on the screen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Armageddon, which was, as you know, was a slam-bang, slam-dunk, special effect every 10 seconds non-stop roller coaster ride with NASA's full backing, very similar situation.
		NASA's fingerprints all over it, was $140 million.
		Now, you take away the $20 million that Bruce Willis got, okay, you've got the same amount of money that's supposed to be on the screen.
		But Armageddon, it looked like it was 120 mil of special effects on the screen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I am absolutely with you on this, that there is about $60 million, I would say, on the screen.
		We've had a number of estimates ranging from a high movie executive, who took her daughter the other night, she did not know what the budget was supposed to be.
		So I asked her, you know, the other night, I said, what do you think was on the screen in terms of money and special effects?
		She says, oh, maybe 65, 70 million.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think, David?
unidentified		Well, you know, it's funny.
		I asked Tom Jacobson, the producer, a couple weeks ago, about the fact, which you brought up earlier, Art, that we do not see any liftoff.
		We don't see any real, you know, dazzling.
		We don't see liftoffs or anything like that, basically.
		And his response was that Brian didn't want to do it because he felt it had been done so many times before in Apollo 13, all those movies, and he felt it was just repetitious to show yet another takeoff and landing and whatnot, so opted not to show that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		What about the world's press or even any input at all?
		I mean, Earth would be pretty interested in the first trip to Mars, and you never saw one ounce of that.
		You never saw the astronauts addressing the world, much less the American people, about the first or then the second rescue trip, which, of course, would hold the entire world.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It would rivet people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It would rivet the entire world, and you never saw one ounce of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That just doesn't add up.
unidentified		Which leads me to clue what Richard is saying, that it is intended as a secret mission in the film.
unidentified		And no one is supposed to know about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It had to be.
unidentified		Had to be.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And that little scene with a kid up front gives it away because daddy couldn't even, on a video link, read to his son.
		And NASA goes out of the way to make sure the astronauts and their families are taken care of and they come to mission control.
		Everything was done from the space station.
		Do you remember years ago when Bush and Gorbachev met off the island of Malta?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And they met for the first time since FDR and Stalin and Churchill had met on ships during World War II?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And of course, you and I didn't really know each other in those days, but it was my take even then that there was some extraordinary high level of security and secrecy that they wanted to make absolutely sure no one would penetrate.
		And so they got on these ships and they steamed around the island during this high-level conference, this summit, which Bush initially didn't want to do, didn't want to do, didn't want to do, and suddenly he broke down and admitted he was going to meet with Gorbachev.
		This headquartering, the mission to Mars from the space station, is cockamaming because you don't have the infrastructure.
		You can't really run a mission from a space station unless security is overwhelming.
		Now, there was another point.
		During the film, there's a scene where there's, I mean, there's a real high-tension scene where meteors slash through the cabin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And they have a few minutes to save themselves because the air is leaking out and they have to find the leaks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And all of the thing comes up where they're trying to restart the environmental control system and all that.
		And Gary Sinise has to access the computer.
		And because the air is getting, I thought this was actually quite brilliant.
		The air pressure is getting so low, he cannot utter the words in the almost vacuum, and the computer is demanding voice print identification.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And one reviewer said, this is the most hysterical lunacy ever.
		What do they think?
		They're going to get ripped off of their stereo on the way to Mars?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I mean, you're absolutely right.
		It's like, what did they expect?
		Some guy from the Yonkers who stoed on board and give computer commands or something?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But remember, what De Palma was doing here was a mirror image of key aspects of 2001, where we discovered that HAL went berserk because of the inanities of the overwhelming security.
		Remember, 2001, 30-some years ago, done by Kubrick and Clark, was the first film about space and extraterrestrial life that basically said in 1968, just before that amazing Christmas mission that I wound up being a part of, because that was my first stint with Cronkite during that Christmas whirl around the moon.
		Kubrick and Clark said, if they find it, they will hide it because you can't take it.
unidentified		And we all know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The obvious implication in a mission that's already secret is that there was somebody on that mission or somebody's who had a level of knowledge above the rest of the crew.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You got it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's the only reason there could be voice print identification before a command was given.
unidentified		Yep.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now the other thing, remember that Gary Sinise's character, he and his wife were supposed to be the lead astronauts on the first mission.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And then she's at this little flashback, you know, talking about the other reasons to go to Mars and the idea that maybe there's something there waiting for them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And what happens to this astronaut and by metonymy to him?
		She dies in a very tragic way.
		And he is removed from the program and only put back in when this emergency arises.
		In other words, the one person in the whole script that suspects that there's something really critical at Sidonia dies early in the film.
		David?
		I think Kubrick is telling us De Palma is telling us reams in this movie.
unidentified		Ream.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		David, the last time we spoke, you were going to write a follow-up article to the first one you had written on the movie.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you done that yet?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And give us a sense of what you wrote.
unidentified		It was basically further to what the original piece was that I'd written, delved into the issues a little bit more, brought up the fact that Brian DePalma's brother Bruce, the research he had done with Richard, that was brought up, and just delved into the issues a little bit more, used more of the interviews that I did a couple weeks ago in L.A., and just sort of brought it all together.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you getting any feedback from all of this, from people?
unidentified		Well, when that piece ran, I was already here in L.A., so I haven't spoken to anybody back in Canada yet.
		But when the first piece ran that Richard, I guess, has on the website right now, I got a lot of interesting calls from people, from fellow reporters, who said, you know, that was quite a great piece, and we're all very intrigued by this.
		You know, the funny thing is that, you know, most entertainment journalists, you know, they don't do any digging.
		They didn't see any reason to go beyond the surface of this movie and just write about the actors involved and their motivations or what it was like pretending to be an astronaut.
		They really didn't dig deep into this.
		And, you know, and I have to thank Richard for alerting me to a much bigger story behind this.
		And look, the fact of the matter is, I don't think this film would be getting this much attention if it wasn't for the fact that NASA was behind this film.
		If this was just some filmmaker making a movie about, you know, a mission to Mars and there being a face on Mars and whatnot, that's one thing.
		But the fact that NASA has endorsed this movie and then trailers start running saying that NASA's part of a conspiracy to cover this up by the studio, you know, it takes it to a whole new level.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And of course, you contacted NASA as well with regard to those trailers, and they didn't want to talk to you at all, did they?
unidentified		No, and I never did get a call back from them.
		They seemed, when I first alerted one of the officials there, I mean, she seemed pretty shocked when I described the trailer to her and immediately said, I have to get your number.
		I have to get someone to call you back, and then never heard back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, for the sake of the audience, the trailers suggested a 25-year cover-up was about to end.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And in the trailer we're talking about, they show the real face at Sidoni.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The real Sidoni images, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, with NASA not wanting to comment, this whole thing...
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		David today talked with his colleague at the Washington Times, who lived a couple doors down from Dan Golden.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		David.
unidentified		And she, I believe, spoke to him, because she's friends with him socially.
		And she spoke to him, I believe it was on Friday or Saturday.
		And she had promised she was going to talk to him for me.
		And she did speak to him and asked him about this film and this controversy and whatnot.
		And she said that he basically sort of glossed over it, didn't really want to pay too much attention to the matter.
		And she felt she didn't want to press the matter any further because she didn't want to jeopardize her relationship with him.
		And she felt, as she said to me, if I'm going to press him on a matter involving NASA, I'm going to wait for a much bigger story.
		So I don't, you know, I just don't want to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So obviously, she didn't want to press anymore.
		He didn't want to talk about it.
		All right.
		Both of you, hold on a moment.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
		Sonam Shalom.
		Sonam Shalom.
		Don't let it night.
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		This is Coast to Coast A.M. with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
		And Richard C. Hoagland is here, along with David DiMarco, and to be joined shortly by Stephen Bassett in Washington, D.C., or actually just outside, but in the Beltway area.
		So if you'll stand by, we've got a lot planned for you tonight and a lot to fit in.
		So we'll be right back.
unidentified		Well, all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Back down to Richard C. Hoagland and, of course, David Giamarco, who's in California, trying to figure out what's going on.
		Richard?
		Yes.
		All right.
		I think we're almost finished with David, and it's been very enlightening indeed.
		And so nobody wants to talk about anything, it seems like.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		NASA doesn't want to talk about the film.
		Dan Golan, who gave the orders that he's not supposed to talk about the film, doesn't want to talk about the film.
		Story Musgrave, who David interviewed during his interview, said all of the opposite things.
		Remember, David, what some of the things were that Musgrave told you?
		About NASA being the most open agency ever created?
unidentified		Yeah, I mean, in the interview, and it was very strange, I mean, he really seemed to be talking in a sort of double speak.
		A sort of, you know, I mean, I've interviewed a lot of, you know, intelligence guys that worked, you know, sort of came of age during the Cold War, and a lot of them tend to speak in the same manner.
		It's the sort of read between the lines, you know, kind of thing.
		And he kept saying to me, you know, there is no cover-up.
		The government is the most open body, you know, in America.
		You know, there are no cover-ups.
		There is no this.
		There is no that.
		There is no evidence.
		And, you know, he kept hammering this home.
		And it got to the point where it was like, okay, you know, I get it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Remember the kernel art with time compression?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It kind of comes off that way.
		It's like, this is so outrageous.
		I mean, to say that the government is not involved in cover-ups is like saying that Bill Clinton doesn't dye his hair.
		I mean, it just, you know, there's no way a person can say that with a straight face.
		Yet you're saying, David, that Musgrave kept repeating it over and over and over again.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
		And when I asked him about the evidence of, you know, what the astronauts have, you know, what they know, you know, after spending all these years in space and with NASA, and what they found out about, you know, UFOs and extraterrestrials and whatnot, he kept repeating the phrase, I've been at the water cooler.
		And he repeated the water cooler at least eight or nine times in one of his answers And kept putting emphasis on the water cooler, that there is no evidence, but I've been at the water cooler, and that's where it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		David, when he began repeating again and again the phrase, there is no cover-up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The government and NASA are the most open agencies and governments in the world, did his eyes kind of glaze over No, but they sort of were an intense stare, we'll put it that way.
unidentified		Yeah, he kept it, when I was pressing him on this sort of evidence, he just kept repeating the phrase, you know, it's at the water cooler, it's in the hallways.
unidentified		You know, but without saying anything.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Which, again, if you go back to my thesis earlier in the evening about this whole film experience, of which he was an integral part, I believe Musgrave and others are, again, telling us between the lines, look not at what this film says, but what it doesn't say.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Look at the things that are not there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're glaring.
		Absolutely glaring.
		David, I want to thank you for coming on the program.
		And the moment you have any more news or lack of news, which seems to be just as interesting, we want to have you back.
unidentified		I have one kicker for you, Art.
		Today, when I was speaking with my colleague at the Washington Times, she had mentioned also that a friend of hers, a British journalist, was also trying to get NASA to talk about the movie, had been stonewalled as well by NASA at Houston.
		And she said, here's a number in Washington for the NASA office, and someone there will probably be able to talk to you.
		So I called them up, and of course, the government office had closed at 4 p.m.
		It was a voicemail message, and it said, you know, please leave a message after the tone.
		Someone will get back to you.
		The beep comes on, and immediately, messages that had been left started being spewed back out at me over the phone.
		So all these people who had left messages at NASA, they were all coming back at me, and I'm thinking, wait a minute, these are the guys that are running the space program, and they can't even get their phone systems to work.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Did any of them, David, say, hey, the real pictures of Sidonia are buried under such, such and such a rock?
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		So Runkill Hoagland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, David.
unidentified		No problem, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And good night.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Good night, David.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		All right.
		Just before going to Stephen Bassett, the nation's only UFO lobbyist in Washington, I got this fact.
		And it does say this, Richard.
		Tune in late, Art.
		But have you talked with Richard about the special that ran on the Discovery Channel Last Night on Mars?
		It was loaded with NASA stuff about the possibility of life on Mars.
		Dan Golden was in several clips.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I saw about the last 20 minutes of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And it was the usual garbage.
		I hate to be so blunt, but it's, you know, without a real reason to go, without a commitment.
		What was more interesting is what Golden said on CNN on Sunday, where he says we're going within 10 years.
		Now, you're not going to do that unless they unveil Sidonia.
		It ain't just going to happen.
		Or something almost equivalent.
		And I'm feeling we're on a very tight timeframe.
		In fact, some of the reviewers that have been sending me kind of overviews of the film, part of what they find wrong with Mission to Mars is that there's a perception on their part that it's unfinished, that it was rushed to completion as if someone had to make a certain date.
		They had to make a timeline that we're all on even though we don't know it.
		And Golden's comments are, in fact, Golden.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm going to throw my hat in the ring in the following arena.
		I think DuPalma's pissed off.
		Okay?
		That's what I think.
		I don't know what about.
		Something he couldn't put in, something that was taken out, something was wrong, and he got angry.
		That's what I think.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		At the end, you know, in the part that I wrote, according to Time magazine, you know, when you go back and you compare what I have in Monuments, which is a careful, loving, meticulously detailed expose of what might have happened, all the loving details of how this interaction between Mars and Earth could have taken place back up with what I hope is some pretty good science.
		The thing that I was left with is, oh, I wish some of that was on the screen.
		All the questions that people would have, that you were sitting there having, about what happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, by the way, Richard, where was the rest of Sidonia?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, they said Sidonia, and they showed the face, but you didn't see any of the rest of the monuments.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You didn't see the pyramids.
		You didn't see the tetrahedral forums.
		You didn't see any of the other city structures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But they specifically named a real place on Mars without duplicating it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You know, I get the feeling, not that Te Palma's pissed, that Te Palma is lying low because he pulled a fast one on the agency.
		And I will tell you one of the clues, one of the solid pieces of data.
		Remember when they're in the space, in the mission modules headed toward Mars, and they redirect this Saturn probe that, like Galileo, was supposed to make a swing by Mars.
		And you get these beautiful high-color, you know, God that we have that kind of resolution and color, lookdowns on the Mars base.
		If you noticed on the maps where the Mars base was, it was on the southern rim of Valles Marineris, the huge canyon that stretches a quarter of a way around Mars, which is a good thousand to 1,500 miles from Sidonia.
		So I got to thinking, this is information, confirmation, that he was pushing everybody in another direction, even at NASA, and at the last minute pulled a switcheroo.
		That that's in fact where the money went.
		He shot two films, Art, two pictures, and the one we see is the one that NASA would never have wanted us to see, unless there's a contingent in NASA that secretly helped him do it.
		And when you go see this film, that's what I mean when I say it's an amazing film, not because of what's there, but because of what's in my book compared to what's there and what's not there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Your book, by the way, is doing extremely well now.
		And you can pick it up on Amazon.com at a really cheap rate, folks, 30% off.
		Richard, your book is...
		Which you wrote how long ago?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I started it 20 years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		20 years ago.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And it has been in print now since 87, continuously.
		It's in its fourth edition Because I've been updating and updating and updating.
		I'm in the process of writing a sequel, by the way, which is going to be called The Heritage of Mars.
		God, can you maybe guess what might be in that one?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can easily guess, yes.
		Now, to Washington, D.C., Stephen Bassett, our nation's only UFO lobbyist in Washington, D.C. Stephen, as a matter of curiosity, welcome to the show first.
		And have you seen the movie?
unidentified		Oh, yeah, I've seen it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, then let's get your take.
unidentified		Well, first, my first take is that as I was sitting here listening and watching this book, Monuments, rise up the chart there at Amazon, I had this rather subversive image in my head of you and Whitley Streeber and Richard all on the bestseller list at the New York Times and Washington Post at the same time.
unidentified		And what matter of consternation that would cause an East Coast power elite?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It will.
		The numbers are going into orbit.
		I can't believe it.
		My publisher can't believe it.
unidentified		I saw the movie.
		I liked the movie.
		I quickly recognized the weaknesses in it.
		It had all the hallmarks of a conflicted production.
		Sheer genius mixed in with some interesting things.
		But clearly, it is an important movie in many respects because it's one of the only movies ever to deal with extraterrestrial phenomena and to use material which is not only part of the research effort, but is still in contention and is immediately verifiable.
		This is a very rare thing.
		It hasn't happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if it had not been Sidonia, if it had not been the face, I don't think we'd be here tonight talking about it.
unidentified		Of course not.
		Well, from the political standpoint, there are many political issues in the politics of UFOs, but one of them, certainly, is an important one, is the situation regarding NASA.
		Is NASA between Iraq and a hard place torn between its fundamental role as the civilian space agency and its obligations under the National Aeronautics and Space Act of 1958 to defer to the Department of Defense regarding all things having to do with national security?
		And as we know, the government has in various ways, on a number of occasions, made it clear that anything ET would be under that heading.
		Is it really caught in the middle here in a conflict of position?
		Because first of all, it costs a lot of money.
		We've spent a lot of money.
		Secondly, it's dear to the heart of many Americans still.
		It's a major part of our heritage.
		It is the crown jewel, was of our scientific explorative front to the world.
		And if it's being torn up by this cover-up, then that is a serious political consequence of the cover-up, if there is one.
		Of course, obviously, I believe there is.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Stephen, you heard it when I said earlier that I thought a major message in this film and Mission to Mars that DePalm is trying to get across is there's a secret plan for secret missions and the public be damned and there will be no accountability and no one will ever know if there's anything there because they're never planning to tell us well there is yeah in fact that secret aspect is something that I hadn't caught and when you mentioned it in your chat earlier it immediately came to me yes he in an indirect way made
unidentified		that mission showed the mission was secret and as you have as you haven't mentioned tonight he clearly threw a bone to you near the end of the movie with several references to the departure time from the planet and that last departure is 1950.
		That was clearly a shot to you.
		I'm sure that NASA would not have wanted that, maybe didn't pick it up, maybe objected to it, maybe put it in the last minute.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's even deeper than that, Stephen.
		Guys, how much rotation was there in this film?
		Think of the space station sequences.
		Think of the astronaut that dies in the swirling vortex of sand in the opening.
		Think of the last scene where the spaceship is leaving in the vortex of energy.
		The hallmark of hyperdimensional physics is rotation, rotation, rotation.
		It's kind of like that old joke about, you know, what's the first rule of business?
		Rotation, rotation, rotation.
		So the 19.5 was merely the affirmation numerically of the math and science underneath everything you were seeing in the film for two hours and 45 minutes.
unidentified		Well, speaking of rotation, one of the things that would have definitely been rotating would have been the eyes in Dan Golden's head when that trailer hit the space nationally.
		That is just an amazing thing that that trailer occurred.
		And I think in terms of the larger picture, there's interesting ironies here.
		First of all, everyone admits, even those who don't believe there's an extraterrestrial presence, that if there is one, there'll be huge impacts on certain aspects of our society and that NASA would clearly be one of the major beneficiaries.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I would love to see David G. Marco get on the trail of who actually produced and saw to it that that trailer was released.
unidentified		Well, I'm sort of with Dick on it, by the way, that if Brian DePama has gone underground, and he certainly has disappeared, the best explanation I can think of is that after that trailer went out, he went underground because he simply wasn't going to take Dan Goldman's phone calls.
unidentified		I think that's a pretty good idea.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And we know that that trailer was aired on X-Files on the evening of the 27th of February, which was simultaneous articles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me tell you why I disagree with all this.
		I'll tell you why I disagree with all this, because Brian DePalma doesn't have to take NASA's calls.
		If NASA wanted to show that they were angry, they would call up Touchtone Disney at a higher level and say, you guys have just burned your bridge to NASA.
		They wouldn't have to call DePalma.
		That's what I think.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but you don't know what kind of personal relationships were established.
		I mean, a director who's like a general or an admiral, to do this, you have to have a lot of personal English.
		You've got to move people with persuasion and all the other things.
		There must have been a lot of personal people at NASA that he worked with that may be feeling really ripped off that their worst nightmare has come true, particularly after what a period of time.
unidentified		Well, we can speculate, but the other point I wanted to make was that besides NASA, which would be a huge beneficiary of final validation of this extraterrestrial reality, whether it's current or ancient.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		In the honest scenario, would be Hollywood.
unidentified		The entertainment industry.
		The entertainment industry fully knows that this type of event and all that comes afterwards is going to result in huge opportunities for them to make huge amounts of money.
		And so as this as this cover-up has played out over the years, I suspect that certain elements of that industry, particularly Disney, have been sitting there on their hands, sort of trying to be good citizens, play ball, but knowing that, my Lord, you know, if you just get this going here, we could be pulling in some billion-dollar projects.
		As you referred to before, and I actually, I have a copy of it and have seen it.
		The Disney documentary referred to in an earlier show was also part of their announcing, wanting to put together a full ET and put this in your mind.
		Try to imagine, okay, NASA or the government confirms extraterrestrials ancient or current.
		Disney puts together a $200 million theme park, and 5 billion people are going to go to that theme park.
		I mean, Disney can probably already figure out the numbers, and Disney is watching its revenues and return on capital drop.
		So Disney's sitting there with huge amounts of money.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I can already in my mind see the face ride.
unidentified		It's like, you know, in other words, this is big stuff, and big stuff is going to impact the big parts of our society, and billions of dollars are involved.
		So that is a huge pressure on this poor little agency that's caught between the DOD, the devil, and the deep blue sea.
		It's got its astronauts out there conflicted.
		I mean, in one hand, they'll repeatedly tell you that they never saw anything.
		They're very loyal to the agency, as they absolutely should be.
		I mean, their relationship with the agency is obviously well understood.
		And yet, a number of them have gone out of their way to tell us repeatedly, folks, there's something going on here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, now, hold on, YouTube.
		We're at the top of the hour.
		I can almost envision now not only the face ride.
		I mean, in a Disney theme park about Mars, there'd be a face ride, and probably there'd be a, you know, the Abe Lincoln that has motion?
		They'd probably have a Richard C. Hoagland that would have motion.
		You know, he'd move around, maybe point toward Mars or Osiris.
		Or his arm would, you know, it'd be at 19.5 or something.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		Well, it's time to get ready to realize just what I have found.
		I have been on the test.
		Cineco, all intellectual cineco.
		There are times when all the world will see.
		When we are in the middle.
		To reach Art Bell on the Toll Free International Line, call your ATT operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		That's 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		That's who I am.
		Richard C. Hoagland is here, and so is Stephen Bassett.
unidentified		I'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh, a radical criminal.
		Oh, won't you sign us a name?
		We'd like to see you're accessible.
		It's all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They've been calling me that for years.
unidentified		No problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen to this.
		the Saks Whips.
		Boy, do I like Saxon.
		Anyway, we're back into it in about a minute.
unidentified		We're back into it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, Richard C. Hoagland, along with Stephen Bassett in Washington, D.C. Stephen, Stephen, let's bring Stephen up if we can here.
		I think he's here.
		Stephen?
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Stephen, the whole controversy that we've been discussing tonight, is this, in your view, some sort of part of disclosure?
unidentified		Well, I think it, and there's other things that reflect this.
		I think it reflects the developing dynamic tensions that are building up amongst the big entities in our culture as we move closer to this event.
		Obviously, the huge corporations, the big agencies, the military DOD, these are the structures that have much at stake as these things move forward and are probably pretty interested in its outcome and may even want to affect the outcome.
		And as we get closer, we're going to see this.
		And because we're dealing with what amounts to a cover-up and not an open situation, we're going to have to read between the lines constantly because no one's going to come out and just read a script for us.
		And so we are being given opportunities here.
		I think, as they say in a farm, we now need to bale some hay while the sun shines.
		And Dick and I certainly talked a lot about this.
		This movie is going to be seen by between 10 and 40 million people over the next couple of months.
		And one of the things I would like them to give very serious consideration to is that everybody that goes to see this movie needs to come out of that movie and know one thing.
		Well, first know this, that there is a real Sidonia, there is a real artificiality issue in play.
		It's been studied by a lot of people and has by no means been dismissed, regardless of what NASA says.
		And that they need to fax their representatives, their senators.
		They need to fax the major news entities and they need to fax NASA and say, you are our space agency.
		We pay every nickel of what you spend.
		And we want photographs of Sidonia.
		We want it photographed from A to Z and from Yin to Yang.
		We want it photographed until we are satisfied that there is enough there, high quality, solid shots covering.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We want photographs as clear as we've been getting of the rest of Mars.
unidentified		Right.
		And we don't want to hear about your budgets.
		And we don't want to hear about how you're offended by that.
		You've lost a billion dollars in spacecraft all over the galaxy, all over the solar system.
		You're under heavy pressure from Congress.
		You need the public support.
		And we are just tired of being sort of treated as a side irritant to this.
		We want it photographed, and we want it now because that spacecraft is in orbit and it can do it any time.
		And we pay the bills.
		You're our agency, you work for us.
		And there's a lot of people that are going to have the face issue raised powerfully because this movie really is a powerful movie when you focus on the key issues, which is extraterrestrial, ancient, past, and the visual way it's structured.
		It's a powerful movie.
		It's in their minds.
		Let's get to the real story and get to the bottom of it.
		And NASA is the agency that we created to do that.
		And that's got to happen, and it should start immediately.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Stephen, what's your political take on Corliss's review in Time, where he goes out of his way to mention me in the Monuments of Mars?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I mean, to me, that's telling us that we've got friends that we didn't know we had.
unidentified		It's a crack.
		It's a crack in the facade.
		Look, there have been a lot of people working on the face issue, a lot of scientists, engineers, and so forth and so forth, but none of them have pressured NASA on the cover-up issue as you have.
		No one else has.
		And for that reason, you have developed a significant group of people within agencies that do not like you, and they've gone to considerable effort.
		I believe attack dogs were sent out from NASA to snap at our heels and try to divert us.
		And I think an effort is made to sort of diminish you in the eyes of any of the media people that you all know.
		The media people have to deal with these agencies, particularly NASA.
		NASA is a major generator of news and stories for every aspect of every major newspaper.
		You constantly see NASA stuff.
		And so these people all deal with it.
		So if NASA wants to put the kibosh on somebody, it's very easy to do.
		And I have no doubt that they have let it be known.
		You know, you don't deal with their COVID.
		So this movie, in a sense, is Disney and De Pama and Touchstone and maybe the entire entertainment industry throwing the gauntlet down to NASA and say, look, we're tired of the games.
		We're tired of the delay.
		They threw a bone to you in that movie.
		Corlus picked it up.
		So the facade is starting to break.
		And that's how I view it.
		And I suspect the talk shows will be calling pretty soon.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, there has been some action in Hollywood, and there are discussions of having me do everything from Oprah to Larry King now, basically to connect the dots, to show people most of Americans do not know there's an actual set of images of Sidonia showing a face and structures.
		Paul David's art, who of course is a name that you recognize, well-known Hollywood producer, did the Roswell incident for Showtime.
		He went to see it the other afternoon, and in the break and the intermission between showings, because he actually stayed and saw it twice, he ran into a young man who was really enthralled with the movie, but had no idea that there was a real Sidonia and a real face on Mars and a real controversy.
		So the question then is, how many people are there like that in the country that need to see it on Larry King that in fact their tax dollars turned up 30 years ago, an extraordinary set of images, and there has been an extraordinary level of independent scientific investigation for the last generation and a half or so around the real issues that De Palma is trying to communicate and code in this film?
unidentified		Well, there's another important thing.
		These shows need content.
		They're desperate for content.
		And the movie and Sidonia, as it's represented in the movie, it's a modest show.
		The real Sedoni and the real story is a dozen programs.
		And so they're not stupid.
		They're going to seize on this.
		The public needs to take advantage of it.
		And we can get rolling.
		Now, we also need to not forget that all of this is happening right in the middle of a presidential election.
		An important presidential election, in my opinion.
		One, it's Pitts, an incredibly ironic one.
		One that, in my opinion, and this is my opinion, we make this very clear, that Pitt's the son of the president who, in my view, was supposed to be the disclosure president in his second term against the vice president of the president who beat that man and came into the office with clear interest in UFOs.
		So the UFO fan, he's back in the context, back in the background, all over the place.
		And this election is underway.
		And interestingly enough, in the last month or two, some very interesting things have happened.
		And one of the most important one is the emergence of John McCain.
		John McCain has left the campaign, but I can assure you, he's going back to the Senate more powerful than he ever was.
		And that's the buzz.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		John McCain now has a national constituency.
unidentified		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And if he was thinking like Reagan, let's assume that Bush were to lose this fault, then John McCain could do a Ronald Reagan and in four years could pick up all the marbles because obviously with his reform message and his straight talk and his military background and his kind of Eisenhower-esque demeanor and people sick and tired of being lied to, McCain is in a position to capitalize on what's going to happen in the next four years and make a run for the White House then and probably win.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have a question from Mr. Bassett back in Washington, and that is with regard to McCain.
		And I was a big McCain booster and supporter.
		I think you probably know that, Stephen.
		Is there any chance in your mind that he may make a third-party run?
unidentified		No.
		McCain is, first of all, and I also want to refer to Dick's statement, namely that McCain is more about winning the election.
		I mean, he wants to win, but actually McCain views himself more as a man of destiny.
		He has alluded to this several times.
		And I think he has got a sense of greatness.
		You don't get to be great unless you take on the really tough stuff.
		And just waiting around to win an election isn't how you get that way.
		In fact, that's what we've seen in the past recently.
		McCain does not.
		I can't imagine McCain vice president to George Bush.
		I think that would be just an awful idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I doubt it.
unidentified		And what happened, what's the important thing about his run for the presidency is that if you look at the whole thing, which went on for about a year, what it finally came to, the point of it all, turned out, maybe it wasn't the intention, but it turned out, is that he did two things.
unidentified		He ended up, unlike any Republican in some time, picking up huge interest from independents and other Democrats, which is why he won so big in New Hampshire.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And secondly...
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know what?
unidentified		Let me tell you, no, there were some Clinton Democrats voting for him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, their motivation wasn't the same.
unidentified		And the other thing he did was repudiate the extreme right of the Republican Party, religious right, and I think to some extension, the military right.
		And you may say, wait a minute, wait a minute.
		No, it can't be the military right.
		Something that a lot of people don't know about McCain, you pick up if you read demography, is that McCain upset a lot of Republicans a number of years ago when not that long after his return from the POW experience, after he was in office, he came forward and very aggressively pursued rapprochement with Vietnam.
		And they just didn't like that at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, another thing, the Bush presidents do not pick vice presidents smarter than they are.
unidentified		So McCain is in this interesting position.
unidentified		And we also know that he was the only presidential candidate asked a UFO question in the campaign so far.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		And hopefully there will be other questions because campaign get out the question.
		2000 is still going.
		And we want the presidential candidates as well as the House and Senate candidates to ask these questions.
		And he made a statement that he was interested.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		He didn't dismiss it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		He grappled with it and even brought up additional details like what was that thing over Phoenix?
unidentified		He left himself open.
		McCain may or may not have strong views on this.
		I think he does.
		But we do know this.
		He is in the center.
		We know that he commands a substantial amount of power right now.
		We know that he heads a committee, significant committee, Senate Commerce Committee.
		Majority.
		Which is not an irrelevant committee to the issues of the politics of UFOs because many of the issues there have enormous commercial and commerce implications.
		But, you know, the fact that nevertheless, he also has the power to influence people who run other committees in the Senate as well as the House.
		So I would hope that people around the country, and anywhere in the country is appropriate, but most appropriately in his state, which he served, would get in touch with him and say, look, this issue is not being addressed.
		What's likely to happen is the two candidates will definitely try to avoid it.
		The main candidates, because, you know, winning is everything now in American politics.
		You're in a special position.
		Take this on.
		Help get open congressional hearings on this.
		Either hold them yourself or help get out of committee to do it.
		Talk to some people in Washington, maybe even myself, who can set you up with other people so you can talk face to face with the people who worked in the government, astronauts and others who have spoken openly about this, and take it on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Stephen, we're about out of time here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you want to direct the audience towards some sort of effort to do all this?
unidentified		Well, all of these types of facts, Dick has conveniently made available on his website.
		They can go there and get that information.
		The other thing I want to mention tonight, this is breaking news, and this is important.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		In Missouri, the ballot initiative language is now virtually approved by the Secretary of State.
		What that means is that there's seven weeks to gather 75,000 signatures, which will ensure that that call for congressional hearings actually goes on the November election ballot and make history.
		Your listeners out there, particularly those in Missouri or those capable of going to St. Missouri, who are willing to volunteer because there will be no paid signature gatherers.
		This is all grassroots, who are willing to go to Missouri or in Missouri and are prepared to collect signatures need to act right now.
		They have got to call Bruce Witteman, the director of this effort in Missouri at this number and say, I want to collect these signatures.
		Here's my address.
		Here's my file.
		And the number is 1-800-489-4836, which is 4 UFO.
		So that's 489-4 UFO.
		800-489-4836.
		And we're going to need about 500 people, collect about 200 signatures in about seven weeks.
		I think that they'll have not much trouble.
		I think people will be more than happy to sign this.
		The movie is going to be playing throughout all of Missouri during this, raising a lot of interest.
		And they can make history, but they can't think about it.
		They've got to get out there, and they've got to call now and get going.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, let's get them going.
		Stephen, as always, thank you for coming on the program and sort of giving us the political side of this.
		And it's a big one, too.
unidentified		You're very welcome.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Take care, my friend.
		That's Stephen Bassett in Washington, D.C. All right, Richard.
		In a moment, we're going to bring on a young lady named Kinsey.
		Who is Cincea very quickly?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Kincea and I have known each other 15, 16 years now, since the beginning of the inquiry into Sidonia on my part.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		She has become the artistic director of the Enterprise Mission.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		She has worked with all of the key researchers from Carlado to Di Petrol and Molinar to McDaniel to Dr. Crater to, I mean, all of them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So she's seen the face?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		She has seen and sculpted and exquisitely mapped this thing from stem to stern and has some pretty interesting things to say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Has she seen the movie?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		She has seen the movie as far as I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
		Well, then her input is going to be fascinating.
		All right, stay right there.
		Richard C. Hoagland, and soon the gal who's been making faces for Richard for a long time now.
		Kinthea, I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		Her hair's apollo-gold.
		Her lips sweet smile.
		Her hands are never cold.
		She's got that today beside.
		She's purple music gone.
		You won't have to thank twice.
		She's got a New York snow.
		From the Kingdom of Nigh, this is Coast to Coast A.M. with Art Bell On the Premier Radio Networks.
		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard C. Hoagland is here.
		And in a moment, the gal who makes faces for Richard.
		That's probably unfair to see us.
		We'll be joined by astronomer Thomas Van Flandren.
unidentified		I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
		You may still have my stupid fight.
		Every time I think about it, I won't cry.
		Let's fall into the deal.
		Little kids keep coming.
		They're waiting, waiting for time to be on the wall.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		great lyrics, aren't they?
		And by the way, tomorrow night, you might want to be here.
		We're just going to have fun, or it's going to be very serious.
		I don't know.
		But we are going to do a possessed line.
		A night for those who feel they are possessed in one manner or another tomorrow night.
		But right now, Richard C. Hoagland, along with Cincia and, of course, astronomer Thomas Van Flandren.
		So here is everybody.
		I want to say first, Kincia, welcome to the program.
unidentified		Well, good morning, Art.
unidentified		Welcome, everyone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess you've been doing artwork and facelifts and stuff for Richard.
unidentified		Well, darn, you got a secret out over the air.
unidentified		Right, for the past 18 years, I've been sculpting the face only a mother could love, and I feel like Mama Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mama Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you have seen the movie.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you have seen the face.
		Probably in your dreams as much as feeling.
		And we would like to have your comments.
		Thomas Van Flandren, good morning to you.
		Yes, good morning, Art.
		If you have comments, as Cynthia unwraps this for us, feel free to make them.
		Cynthia?
unidentified		Well, yes.
		Well, I found the movie to be entertaining.
		When it came to the face, I found it rather Mickey Mouse.
		It doesn't touch the grandeur, the majesty of the real face.
		And I was, at first I was disturbed, and then I thought, oh, I see, they're actually planting a seed for the next generation here.
		This is a way of sneaking in, and I do think they snuck in this name Sidonia.
		I don't think that NASA was tipped to that because there was no attempt to show Sidonia any of the rest of Sidonia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I pointed that out earlier.
unidentified		So I think they just slipped that name in there.
		And I think that the trailer that they did was that they were testing waters for another movie and, like Stephen Bassett says, probably a theme park.
		Why not?
		You know, if they can see how much interest they get from that trailer, it's quite amazing.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You know, one of the interesting synchronicities of all this, has anybody been following the news today, Art, Thea, Tom?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		What's been the biggest story all day, including a major presentation at the White House, no less?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I can see I was sitting here for myself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it depends on when you watch the news.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They were talking about how, you know, the political candidates are mopping up and getting delegates.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, this was on Super Tuesday.
		I mean, this is when everybody sewed it up on the Republican and Democratic.
		No, I'm talking about a much more fundamental story.
		Today was the story of the Human Genome Project.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the very day the NASDAQ dived 200 points because all the biotech companies just went up in flames.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There's been DNA all over every TV screen all over America for 24 hours now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It looked just like stuff in the movie.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		A key theme of DePalma's movie is the DNA strands, the missing chromosomes, how we have been stitched together by alien interference, and how life on Earth has been shaped by an extraterrestrial Martian presence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Two days later.
unidentified		That was pretty stunning.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, two days later.
		By the way, it was very tetrahedral.
		More hyperdimensional physics for those scenes, okay?
		But two days later, in the real world, you have major announcements at the White House with the president talking about this extraordinary project which will make everyone's code available to everyone and demanding that the government keep it open so that science can progress by no non-disclosure of data so that people can't kind of lock up certain secrets of the genome.
		The point is, are we looking again at the idea of multiple messages?
		Because from my work and backed up by Kinsey's extraordinary modeling, there is no doubt in my mind tonight that the real face on Mars has exquisite, important, crucial links with life on Earth, particularly the ancestors of current Homo sapiens.
		And although De Palma didn't say that with the face he put in the film, he said it with all the other stuff he put in the film.
		So there were dual messages, and the face that he designed for the film appears to be more the creators of this experience, of this phenomenon, of this intrusion into the terrestrial biosphere, than the end result, which, of course, is us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		India, have you seen the trailer with the real face on Mars?
unidentified		No, I'm sorry that I missed that, but I can certainly imagine how powerful it must have been.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and how strange it would be that it would be released at all in connection with this particular movie.
unidentified		That's why I think they were doing a test.
unidentified		I think that they were, you know, Disney was putting out feelers for possibly another follow-up film with the real Cydonia to see if people are interested.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So what did you make of the face we saw in the movie?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was that?
unidentified		Well, I didn't think there was any attempt to make it look real.
unidentified		It didn't look like it had been weathered and it didn't have any features that were really poignant.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, that's a really good point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They have a lot of sandstorms on Mars, and it should have been blasted to bits.
unidentified		It looked Mickey Mouse.
		It looked like a cartoon.
		That's why I think that it was a deliberate, like a dream sequence seed that they're planting in our consciousness.
		And they know, I mean, Golden's talking about 10 years to Mars.
		A generation, just 10 years, will make such a difference.
		And the youth now that Can't vote 10 years from now will.
		And they're slipping it in where it's safe.
		You know, just like it was safe to say that microbial life could be contained in meteors from Mars.
		This was a safe way to sneak in this concept.
		It was a safe way to sneak in the face where the ones that were looking wouldn't feel threatened, but it puts it in the dream mind of the collective that, oh, this could be so.
		And it puts it in the mind of the youth to start inquiring.
		And that's why I think they slipped in the name Sidonia.
		I think that this film was deliberately pointed not only at the general audience, but at the young people who 10 years from now are going to make a big difference.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		Art and Kinsey, there was on the first mission, the face was still covered over and eroded, and then they made a point in the second mission, the rescue mission, of saying that that episode that happened during the first mission had basically cleaned off the face and taken off all the dust and so on, and it was now this shiny, spectacular thing.
unidentified		But it still, technically, it didn't look real.
		It looked like a drawn cartoon.
		There was nothing of the lighting that made you feel like it was a real structure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tom, you've seen the face a million times, the old original shots of the face, and then you saw what they took more recently.
		Is there any way that we can urge them to go back and take clear, unambiguous, duplicate photos?
		I mean, the satellite going around Mars now, mapping Mars, taking photos, has been getting spectacular, just beautifully detailed shots of the rest of Mars everywhere except Sidonia.
unidentified		Well, they must be getting them.
unidentified		They're just not showing them to us.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's the big unknown.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		However, given the attitude of Michael Malin, who is the principal investigator on the camera team, the imaging team, his attitude is, as he said to the planetary scientists and to the press, he said that taking photographs of the face was a waste of funds, $400,000 that they were given specially to do it, and a slap at the integrity of the scientists on the project.
unidentified		So he's of a mind not to do it.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		And he has, as far as we can tell, there have been at least three opportunities to get more images, three good opportunities, since the last ones were taken.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		And although they could be keeping that data under wraps, we have no indication that any images at all were taken.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder if Mr. Malin, Dr. Malin, has gone to see the movie.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I rather doubt it.
unidentified		Wasn't it also Malin, who said that if anybody was going to find something, it would be him?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or if he did, he put on a mustache and a hat, a trench coat, and went late at night.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, see, this illustrates how the process is broken and why we need to pay special credence to Stephen Bassett and the idea that we need to send faxes to Dan Golden, lots of them, demanding new images, and simultaneously send copies of those faxes to John McCain.
		And we have the numbers up on Enterprise.
		If you go to the Enterprise website, enterprisemission.com, or you go down to my name on our site tonight and click over on the Enterprise Mission, you'll see that about four or five posts down, we have a section that lists fax numbers for McCain, for Dan Golden, for Ted Coppel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, but about, you know, what percent of the audience does not have a computer?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So do you want to give out a couple of the key fax numbers?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		John McCain's fax number, remember now, he is a national figure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		He is chairman of the key committee, the Commerce Committee.
		As chairman, he can call hearings on anything he wants.
		Anything.
		This is what people don't generally know.
		If John McCain really wants to reform government, you start with honesty in terms of a NASA mission that's gone completely awry as Walt Disney himself, the corporation, has accused the government.
		In other words, it's not just us now, but it's a major corporation in America claiming that a major part of the U.S. government has not been telling us the truth on something of seminal importance.
		McCain's Washington fax number is 202-228-2862.
		That's 202-228-2862.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, got it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, if you want to email him, you can email to senator underline McCain at mccain.senate.gov.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And what I would recommend is people send more faxes to Dan Golden.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I like sending faxes to Dan Golden.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Which, of course, well, you know, Dan has not been getting enough attention from most of us for the last couple, three months.
		And he needs to know that we're still here and we still care.
		And, of course, you want to ask him in your faxes, hey, Dan, what's this new timetable of 10 years to Mars?
		What have you found up there that's going to get you the money to get there in 10 years?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, let's ask.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		His fax number is 202-358-2810.
		202-202-358-358-2810.
		And when I say his fax number, it's in his headquarters office at NASA headquarters.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		These are public fax machines.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, if you want to copy Ted Coppel and CNN and, you know, a bunch of other numbers, it would be very nice because the more exposure, the more copies that go around, and on your Fax to Golden, it says copy to Ted Koppel, copy to Senator McCain, you know, the more they know they've got to pay attention and respond in some way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Seems to me, Richard, Ted Coppel ought to be calling you up about it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		As a matter of fact, my friend who works on Coppel's staff saw the Time article, Time magazine, where I'm credited with the Monuments of Mars being the genesis and essence of this film.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Has taken it to the producers and senior staff of the rest of the Coppel crew, and they did not know as of this afternoon until I told them that Golden had changed the timetable.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So I have recommended to Coppel Staff now that we do a program where NASA or Golden himself come on the show, talk about the new timetable, talk about the film, talk about what's really at Sidonia, and talk about why they back the film that turns around and stabs them in the back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I'd also like to have him tell us where he got the money.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, he doesn't got it yet, but if he's going to get it, there has to be another shoe that drops.
		And the politics of this year could be extraordinary because John McCain tapped into a deep visceral vein in the body politic, which is people are tired of being lied to.
		And they want the truth.
		Now, McCain said he's running the Straight Talk Express.
		Here is a test.
		And John McCain will see it as a test.
		If enough people fax him and say, Senator McCain, look, you made yourself our titular leader in terms of reforming major aspects of this process.
		Well, here's a system that is broken, absolutely flat-ass broken.
		It does not work.
		You have a major corporation accusing the government of lying about something of such incredible importance and then simply glossing over it in every interview and in every discussion.
		And even when the mission takes pictures, the pictures are incredibly inferior to the rest of the planet that it's photographing.
		So if we do this and do it in concert, I mean, the Bell audience has extraordinary power because, and I know that Tom and I have gone around on this, but without all those faxes from this audience way back in 98, I have no doubt there would have been zero pictures of Sidonia in April of 98.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we were.
		We did.
		We caused action.
		We got the cat box pictures.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		I'm with Richard completely about the value and indeed importance of getting the message to NASA now that we definitely need pictures while we can still get them because the spacecraft is only good for probably less than another year in orbit around Mars, and we don't know how long it'll be before there's another camera on any mission to Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or, for that matter, how long it's going to be before we can get any successful mission to Mars that might be scheduled.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		Where Richard and I disagree is that I would rather give Golden and NASA the benefit of the doubt since they have been friendly up to now about getting the original pictures of Sidonia and about treating the matter respectfully.
		I think that the people who are treating this unscientifically are those at the judgment.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, but remember, Tom, he told John Holliban, my friend who's no longer with us at CNN, that he was going to continue taking pictures of Sidonia until everyone was satisfied.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not satisfied.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And what happened to that promise?
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		None of us are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		We got those horrendous photos that were taken at the wrong angle and were fuzzy and just not typical of what the rest of everything they've been getting from Mars has been just spectacular.
		And so.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		Archer, we now have probably better evidence for exactly what went wrong than was in any other instance in connection with this whole affair because JPL at its website has the recipe for how it arrived at the picture that was released to the press.
		And basically they detailed the steps there, including putting it through both a high and low pass filter.
		The purpose of a high pass filter being to suppress details in an image and to sharpen up edge features.
		The combination of those things and the extremely low contrast in the original image resulted in something that wasn't even recognizable for what we already knew was there from the 1976 images.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, Kinsia has done a lot of work, a lot of work, I mean hundreds of hours, in painstakingly comparing the original Viking data with the surveyor data.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And maybe she wants to chime in here and tell us what conclusion she's come to in terms of the so-called new Mars surveyor imagery.
unidentified		Yeah, I would love that opportunity.
		I want to mention that when I first saw the cat box image, I was definitely shocked.
		But as I looked at it closer, I noticed that there were certain lines there that confirmed actually what I had seen in the Viking high sun angle.
		And I began to start including the new MGS images in the sculpture.
		I had the sculpture in clay, and I had duplicated the two Viking sun angles, and now I began to add in this third sun angle and position of camera.
		And what I found was that the face, although at first glance it looks like it's asymmetrical, when you first look at it, you can see that there's this, well, we'll say the feline side and the humanoid side, looks asymmetrical.
		But when you map it out, and if you go to my website, Confia.net, and you go to comparisons on the Mars base, you'll see that there is actually a geometry of symmetry.
		For example, the pupil that shows up in the MGS image is actually equidistant from the center of the face and on the same line as what appears to be the pupil in the Viking high sun angle on the other side of the face.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, translated, Cathia, for an expert like yourself, I mean, the general public looked at only the new photos and went, what a bunch of crap.
		The face is not really a face.
		It was a trick of light and shadows the whole time.
		But for an expert to add on the additional angles that you got, carefully adding to the original photos, you confirmed in fact.
unidentified		Exactly.
		Exactly.
		And not only that, I was able to create the model whereby I can do a sunrise, sunset, and I can simulate exactly the MGS image where it looks like that and the mouth disappears and all the features change.
		And then as the light goes over, it morphs and you see the Viking.
		And if you see the Mars movie on Richard's site, you'll see this morphing sequence.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Which, by the way, would have been incredibly spectacular for De Palma to have put in the film.
		Can you imagine the vista where the astronauts are gathered and they're watching sunrise over the face, the dawn, Martian dawn behind it, which, of course, I described in great detail in Monuments.
		And then Kinthea, many years later with her three-dimensional modeling, was actually able now to create that scene, and it's up on the computer so everybody can now see it.
		It's a large file.
		There's a couple of very large files you have to download, but they're well worth it to take the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, that's on your site, Kinthia, as well as Richard's, or just yours?
unidentified		Well, the movies are actually on Richard's site.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And your site again?
unidentified		Kinthea.net.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you spell that?
unidentified		K-Y-N-T-H-I-A dot net.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I want to thank you for all the very, very good work you've done for Richard.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Obviously, over the years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And behind the scenes of that, glad to have you on the program this morning.
unidentified		Thank you, Art.
unidentified		Thank you, everyone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night, Cynthia.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Good night, Kinthea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		When we come back, Richard Hoagland and Thomas Van Flandren will continue.
		I'm Art Bell from the High Desert.
		is coast to coast and beyond AM.
unidentified		AM.
		It's everywhere I go.
		Come on, let me show you.
		To reach out bell in the Kingdom of Nai.
		From west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		Coastline callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
		Or use the wild chart line at 1-775-727-1295.
		To reach out on the Toll 3 International Line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and at the dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		With the man who wrote the book on the face on Mars, Richard C. Hoagland.
unidentified		He's been at that and working on it for the better part of 20 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a long time.
		With us also tonight, Thomas Van Flandren, an astronomer who has a unique view of what might occasionally occur to planets.
		How does all that fit in?
		Well, I'm sure we'll get to that shortly.
		I'm Mark Bell.
unidentified		I'm Mark Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, Richard C. Hoagland and Professor Van Fandren.
		Gentlemen, welcome back.
		Tom, have you seen Mission to Mars yet?
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I saw it on opening night for last Friday.
unidentified		Ha ha.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Reaction?
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		I liked the movie.
		It wasn't great.
		I'd give it a six on a scale of one to ten, but I did like the ending very much.
		I liked that because, of course, I knew a lot of things about it being even more fact-based than the movie makers probably gave it credit for themselves.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Your criticisms of the movie, if any?
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		Well, the first three quarters of it were a bit melodramatic and not really that memorable.
		I thought it was the ending of the last quarter that made it very worthwhile.
		I agree.
		The science had a lot of flaws despite the credits to NASA for technical consultation.
		By the way, there was also a disclaimer.
		I watched the credits all the way to the end, and NASA specifically disclaims that any credit given to it for technical consultation constitutes an endorsement of the story or the contents of this film.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I've never seen that one before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
		No.
		I wonder how long it took them to construct that.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, what's interesting in terms of Concini's reaction to the face, having lived with this thing for almost 20 years, I got a fact here from a friend of ours in Scottsdale, who had been involved in setting up some of the materials we've done in Phoenix over the years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And I want you to read one paragraph because I think that he's put his finger on what bothers me about the film.
		And you seem to think I'm raving about it.
		No, I'm saying that it's multi-leveled, and as you take it apart, it's richer and richer.
		But you've got to know the background.
		You know, you have to have read the book.
		You have to have known about this program and followed our discussions over the years.
		And the more you know, the more this film resonates at a whole bunch of different levels.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, like when they said, launch it 1950, with or without us.
unidentified		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yes, come on.
		Anyway, John says here, what I believe I saw today was a film, Mission to Mars, about two-thirds baked, or if you will, a two-hour rendition of about three hours of subject matter.
		It dealt with some very heavy material in a very cavalier way.
		A film that asks us to contemplate some extraordinary possibilities.
		It fails to provide the necessary weight and moment to make it seem profound.
		A good score is very helpful, and with some meaningful pauses, will give necessary inertia to stir our emotions.
		Think of Richard Dreyfus' face glowing in the sublime light of the mothership in close encounters, and you cannot help hearing the superb soundtrack in your mind.
		Perhaps this film was never intended to be of that caliber, but parts of it were, and the whole thing could have been, had they committed the remainder of the effort necessary.
		The gods do indeed live in the details.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, unless it was subsidized to be what it is, you wouldn't think that they would intentionally make it less.
		But that's just my take.
		And I've got a fact for you.
		William from Portland writes something I bet you'll agree with.
		Hi, Art.
		What we're hearing tonight would support Richard's idea of two factions at odds in NASA.
		On one hand, there are the White Hats who might have secretly given De Palma the green light to make an anti-NASA statement with the film and then told him to get the hell out of Dodge till the smoke clears.
		Once the Black Hats got wind of the anti-party line message being promoted, they go to the press and try to limit the damage with across-the-board bad reviews.
		With Golden likely towing the line between the two elements and upping the schedule on a manned mission, it would seem disclosure is near at hand.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I pretty much can't vote that.
unidentified		Didn't think so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tom, your theory of exploding planets or planets that are capable of exploding, if I remember correctly, you once envisioned Mars as a satellite of another planet, didn't you?
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		One of the two planets that apparently exploded to make our main asteroid belt was in the present orbit of Mars, and Mars was one of its moons at that time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then if that's the case, you always rather thought that the face was something erected by those on the main planet to be seen as we might see a giant face on our own moon, erected perhaps in our own image.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And obviously the movie suggested that humankind was either born from what came from Mars or tampered with by those who lived on the planet that was the mother world for Mars at one point.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Yes, I think that's a credible line of reasoning.
		Given the artificiality of the face, and I expect not all the audience is willing to give us that, but there are some very good lines of evidence now that have led me to conclude that the face is artificial beyond a reasonable doubt now.
		But given that, then it's a question of who built it, when, and for what purpose.
		And the fact that the face is a hominid in appearance, like species, not like animals or aliens or anything.
		And the other fact of the timing, there's a tie-in that tells us that the face had to have been built earlier than 3.2 million years ago, the astronomical date of the last explosion.
		And 3.2 million years ago is also significant for the human race because the oldest fossil remains of our species date back to 3.2 million years ago on this planet.
		So that gives us two tie-ins with the builders of the face, the hominid appearance and the fact that their civilization was apparently ending just as ours was beginning on this planet.
		That tends to suggest that there is some kind of relationship between the builders of the face on Mars and our species on this planet, as indeed the movie was trying to suggest in a much more roundabout way as its basic theme.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tom, since you're an astronomer, in recent days, they have been imaging these deep crevices on Mars, and they have been suggesting publicly that there was just a massive, massive amount of water on Mars.
		And I guess a lot of people would like to know where the water went.
		Is it down below ground on Mars?
		Did it get blasted away when the mother planet exploded?
unidentified		Where did all the water go?
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		Well, a lot of that thinking is that that water was around for a long time.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		I think that instead we're talking about water from the explosion that, along with a lot of other things, was dumped onto Mars, created these tremendous floods of fantastic proportions, much greater than anything known in the history of Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you don't believe it was there originally.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		I think it came from one of the exploded planets.
		And that it blew up quite close to Mars, dumped a tremendous amount of water there, along with many other changes that are produced on Mars.
		Just this last week, there are about 15 lines of evidence that Mars was very close to one of the explosions when it happened, especially the pole shift and the fact that one hemisphere of Mars is saturated with craters and has a crust that's 20 kilometers thicker than the other,
		and the other the hemisphere that was facing away from the explosion has practically very little cratering and is a one kilometer thick crust, smooth all the way around, and then a sharp division almost at the hemisphere boundary along a great circle, just as you'd expect if a tremendous catastrophe happened to half of Mars, but not the other half.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, here's something that I can't quite grasp, and maybe you can help me with this.
		It seems to me that if there was a planet to which Mars was essentially a moon, with a face erected in the image of those who erected it, put it up there, the face, and Mars,
		or the mother planet rather, was going to explode, it seems to me that that race that lived on that planet already had obvious spacefaring capability.
		And so then if they could have escaped, they would have escaped.
		And the most obvious place, most friendly place, would be this great big blue world we live on.
		And so then we might not just be genetically tampered with, we might be Martians.
		Or I guess Martians would be an incorrect.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, see, this again is one of the themes of the film.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		When the alien holds out its hand with the DNA, it's in essence saying, we are you and you are us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, but it didn't look like us.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, but look, I mean, remember...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But why would, if they were spacefaring on this larger planet, Richard, why would they not have simply saved as many as they could and have taken them to Earth?
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		Well, Art, you can't just save the species on Earth because as many as you may transport here, you've come to a planet where the atmospheric gases are different, the pressure is different, the food and energy sources available are different.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		From what you're used to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, environmentally, you would have to have a different creature.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		What you'd have to do is to adapt to the creature which already was here, and that's why Corliss says that this movie traces its genesis to the monuments of Mars, because I lay out very specifically that kind of the scenario with the science behind it in the book.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And I did it almost 20 years ago.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		They would have to take the most nearly similar species already adapted to this biosphere and blend a bit of their DNA with the species' own DNA to produce a hybrid that was adapted to this biosphere yet had the intelligence and dexterity of the original species.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tom, when you see Kinzia's additions to the face based on what little information there was available in the latest photographs, what does that do to the numerical probability that this is not a natural formation?
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		Well, we in fact have used some of Canthia's work in our analysis because, as she said, she has simulated both the Viking images and the MGS images with the correct perspective angles and lighting angles and does an excellent job of taking a real human face.
		In one case, she used her own.
		In another case, she used a face that was based on the face on Mars.
		But in each case, when viewed from, say, the MGS perspective with that kind of lighting, you can't recognize it anymore as a face.
		When you're looking at a face at too oblique an angle with very bad lighting and all shadows on the side that's visible to you, it's a bit like looking at a human face illuminated by a flashlight under the chin.
		Distorted and weird.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But again, coming back to my core question, when you take Kynthia's additions to the old photographs, what do the numbers look like regarding, if you've even run them, regarding whether or not this is an artificial object?
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a combination of her work and the finding, the incredible finding in the MGS images that when we find out what is where on the Mesa and get the eyes back in their right place, the nose and so on and the mouth, once it's all straightened out again and we can reconstruct the view as it would be from overhead, the most amazing thing happens.
		And this is what is absolutely convincing to me.
		We see secondary facial features that could only reasonably be there if this were a constructed mesa.
		We see an eyebrow over the eye socket.
		We see a round pupil inside the eye socket.
		At the end of the nose ridge, we see two small round objects that look like an attempt to portray nostrils.
		What was a mouth in the Viking image is parted lips in the MGS image, and so on.
		All these secondary facial features that appear only in the correct location on the mesa with the correct size, shape, and orientation, and nowhere else is absolutely convincing to me.
		The statistical odds against that are trillions to one, far beyond that, that this would happen by chance.
		So that's what makes it compelling that the face must be artificial.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Trillions to one and beyond.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		The mathematical odds work out to more than hundreds of billions of billions to one against all that I just described happening by chance.
		And since it was predicted in advance, it's the kind of statistic that scientists are supposed to have to pay attention to.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But you see, most of the American people, the people who fund NASA, because of this consistent campaign that McDaniel so carefully documented many years ago, do not know this.
		They have not made the connection between this film, except through the Disney trailer, and the fact that there's a real face and structures on Mars that demand answers.
		And that's where there has got to be a connect.
		There's got to be some way to knit these two things together, and that's where our job gets very difficult unless we get a lot of help from people listening to us tonight.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
		What is so critical is to get pictures with the right lighting and the right perspective of the face.
		I think that will go a long way toward convincing just about everyone who looks at it that the face is artificial when they can actually see an overhead view, see the full face in its normal symmetry with the shadows the way the builders intended them to be cast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me ask you both a question.
		We're screaming for good, sharp, clear images at the proper angle of Sidonia.
		Do you think that they already have these photographs?
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		Richard?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tom?
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		I personally doubt it because there have only been a Limited number of opportunities for overflights, and Malin really is adamant against taking these pictures, and he's kind of in charge.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, I differ with Tom because Tom is willing to ascribe ignorance and stupidity to where I see malice and careful connivance and conspiracy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's my Richard.
unidentified		Remember, I'm not alone.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The Disney Corporation has said exactly the same thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Both of you hold on.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		Never to be disappointed.
		My guests are Richard C. Hoagland, who wrote the book on Sidonia all those years ago, which you can get, by the way, at Amazon.com, through his website, of course, through my website, and astronomer, Dr. Thomas Van Flandren.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		I'm Art Bell.
		I see them blue from you, and I think to myself, what a wonderful world bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
		And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
		To rechart on the Pull-free International line, call your AT ⁇ T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast A.M. with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nile.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Something to think about, which you should have been thinking about all night long, is that maybe at one time Mars was a wonderful place to be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Blue skies, water.
unidentified		Not now.
		I feel surrounded.
		I must improve, feel my much more, and I'll never lose, and I'll never lose my sorrow.
		I must improve.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So much to wonder about.
		Professor Thomas Van Flanderen and Richard C. Hopel are here, and they'll be right back.
		All right, back now to our two Mars men.
		Gentlemen, welcome.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You know, during the break, Tom and I were comparing notes on that last scene in the film.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Which is this three-dimensional, stunning solar system, which is pretty awesome.
		And you've got to see this movie to appreciate all that we've been discussing tonight and not let critics deter you from finding out for yourself.
		But in this last scene, it basically shows the disaster that overtook Mars and required, in the theme of the story, the, quote, Martians to leave, to have a diaspora, and to go elsewhere in the universe, even beyond this galaxy in part, and some of them to come here.
		And what Tom and I were noting was that the effect was disproportionate to the cause.
		In other words, the disaster that they picture in the film was, frankly, kind of small compared to the effect that they're saying it created.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Whereas what I think the Palma was hinting at in the ultimate result was Tom's model.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, coincident, this week, just as this film comes out, we've got some amazing evidence, new evidence, that's coming from NASA, from Johns Hopkins, from Goddard, both relating to Mars and relating to this mission which is orbiting the Eros asteroid, the Near Mission, which, by the way, tonight was renamed after Gene Shoemaker.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's now called the Near Shoemaker Mission.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		My friend who died, and Tom, of course, knew him too, a couple, three years ago in the wilds of Australia, got hit by a truck, you know, when he was in a lorry doing, you know, what he loved doing, which was investigating asteroid impact here on Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, this Near Mission has been producing the most astonishing confirmations of what Tom has been talking about for 25 years.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And the most amazing thing is that the project people are actually almost saying it right out loud, Tom.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		At the press conference they held a week after the spacecraft went into orbit around the asteroid Eros and began taking close-up pictures.
		Andrew Cheng at Applied Physics Laboratory announced that it seemed clear that Eros must be a fragment of a planet-sized body.
		That was his phrase.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Which is a stunning change from the previous positions of every NASA planetary scientist going back generations, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, it's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, how can they make such a statement without sort of apologizing for what they might have thought past?
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		Well, he was questioned closely by the reporters at the press conference about exactly what he meant by that.
		And there was some quick backpedaling there.
		And he hastily added that the consensus in the field is that the parent body was probably no more than moon size, but that there were really very few lines of evidence that constrained it.
		In the meantime, they have discovered evidence of geological layering on the asteroid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which means it would have been part of a larger body of planets.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		And they've discovered chemical composition.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The mineralogy is matching what you get from the cross-section of an exploded crust or mantle of a big planet.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		The rocks are made of lava-like materials, and there aren't any volcanoes on this small asteroid.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Not at all.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		It shows evidence that its parent body was melted so that the heavy elements sunk to the core and the light elements to the surface.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		That kind of differentiation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there anything else, Tom, that would explain that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anything else?
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		Well, the asteroid people have been pressed on this for years because there's evidence from meteorites of some of these same phenomena.
		And they have been talking about ways in which small bodies like asteroids might be able to melt.
		They think that maybe things like aluminum-26, basically things that have high radioactivity, might have produced enough heat to melt a small asteroid.
		Now, this is a stretch.
		You correctly sense that that's very much a stretch of what's plausible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Occam's razor suggests what?
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		That it was a planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And you see, it's all of these leaks, this convergence, and either we're dealing with Jungian synchronicities of overwhelming dimensions, or is it that Dan Golden realizes that the jig is almost up, that there's enough honest people in the system able to look at this disparate data, put it together, realize that there's something wrong with this picture, and it's only a matter of time until the conspiratorial forces are forced out of the closet.
		So the best way politically in Washington that you get ahead of the curve is you get ahead of the curve.
		In other words, you announce it yourself before your enemies can announce it and prove that you've been lying.
		And it's, I mean, Tom is very modest, but he has developed the most extraordinary insights into the real history of the solar system.
		And I feel almost as passionately about his work as I do about ours, because I've seen him shafted and not given credit and not given appropriate approbation and data fudged and hidden under the desk and under the table over and over again.
		So as the near mission unfolds and more and more goodies come to the fore that really confirm that he's been right all along, I mean, I am just tickled to death.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Richard, as this movie at the end didn't say for Richard, I would think that a movie suggesting the new paradigm, when it's found to be true, confirming Tom's work, probably won't say for Tom.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		I agree with that.
		Also, in fairness, too, the exploded planet hypothesis has been around for 200 years.
		A lot of good scientists have jumped on that bandwagon and been overtaken by history as the pendulum swung back and forth.
		But the evidence in the last 20 years has sent the pendulum swinging strongly back in the direction of there is really no other way to explain everything that we see in the solar system except the exploded planet hypothesis.
		And now the NEAR mission is fulfilling, we've had quite a string of successful predictions, and the NEAR mission is completing that string of successes up to date.
		For the NEAR mission, the exploded planet hypothesis predicts that all of the asteroids and comets are really debris clouds.
		They're not just single isolated rocks floating around.
		But because they came from an exploding major body, lots and lots of debris of all sizes is trapped in the gravitational field of each big asteroid.
		Sure.
		So you expect then to find lots of debris when you go up close to one of these things and orbit it.
		So initially I predicted that when the spacecraft went into orbit around Nir, it would find the debris cloud and find the satellites just as an earlier spacecraft found a satellite of an earlier asteroid, much to the surprise of the mainstream.
		But before a year before the spacecraft actually got there and went into orbit, I realized that the very irregular shape of Eros, it's sort of like a stretched kidney bean shape, or even in some orientation, sort of like an icicle, a very elongated object, that creates instabilities in the gravitational field.
		And then I realized that the debris that was originally there for just this object would tend to mostly crash onto the surface in slow, gentle grazing impacts, but within just a few hundred or thousand years.
		And so that the moons that were originally there would be found on the surface now, but still identifiable as moons because they would make a grazing impact.
		They wouldn't make a crater.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Will these smaller pieces that had been orbiting and pulled in be apparent with this mission?
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		They already are, are they?
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		They already are.
		And you can tell that they came from orbit because of roll marks.
		You can see the trail where they came in and skid or rolled across the surface.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There are furrows going halfway around the moon, and then you come to this huge big boulder, which is really a small mountain because Eros is like 20 miles across or 20 miles long.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		A year ago, I said the exploded planet hypothesis will predict that we'll see roll marks leading up to boulders and the very first image from orbit showed a big crater on Eros with a trail starting out on the plane of Eros going up the side of a crater wall, down the inside, and ending in a boulder in the crater.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well then they're cooked.
		What are they saying about this?
		I mean they're cooked because if it was an impact it would be not a roll mark at all.
		It would be flat.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		In fact they found quite a large number of these trails and boulders all over the surface.
		The going are the they always have theoreticians that are nothing if not inventive are Now talking about how lucky we are to have samples of the interior of arrows that must have popped out through fissures during impacts.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Kind of like cookie dough forced out when you break one of those doughboy things for biscuits or whatever.
		That's what they're thinking.
		These are extrusions from inside.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're just going to hang on to the bitter end, aren't they?
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		Mainly, they're ignoring the fact that this was predicted by a model long in advance.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, 20 million people are hearing it's predicted, and they can go to the web and you can click on the near site of Johns Hopkins, and you can see these amazing images that are confirming Tom over and over and over again.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Then you've got Chang's statements, the project scientist, who says, part of a bigger planet.
unidentified		Duh.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and you can see the history of the prediction, and you can see an image showing the trail and the boulder I just mentioned on our Meta Research website, too, metaresearch.org.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Tom, just a real quick 101, because everybody always says, look, I understand how a sun goes supernova, but I don't understand where the energy comes from or the dynamics come from to explode a planet.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		Well, interestingly, there's been quite a bit of work done just in the past two years, which I'm very happy about because for most of the last 20, 25 years that I've been working on the exploded planet hypothesis, there hasn't really been a good theory of planetary explosions.
		Now there's interest, and the theories, good theories are coming out.
		One that geologists have caught on to recently, it takes off from the fact that there's a region in a place called Oklo in Gabon in Africa where there's something called a natural fission reactor.
		There's actually evidence for fission reactions produced by nature from long ago on the Earth.
		The theory has it that uranium was leached from the soil by streams and then pooled at some place until it reached critical mass.
		Once they realized that nature can produce fission reactors, the next logical step was to realize that in the core of planets where all the heavy elements like uranium collect, that sooner or later you're going to reach a critical mass.
		And given the right conditions, you can explode that planet through this process.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, of course, I have a slightly different take.
		I think that the untapped potentials of the hyperdimensional model not only will explain planets blowing up, but also supernova and, you know, nova and other extraordinary energetic events that we just don't have enough data.
		I mean, we've got interesting models, but the models are more and more have to be tweaked and pushed and pulled and pummeled to make them fit the evidence coming in, particularly from things like Hubble and some of the high-energy observatories in orbit.
		So I don't think the jury is anywhere near in yet on what will cause planets to explode, but the very fact that they can, and the evidence now supports it, should give one great pause before dismissing that it could happen again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard, I'd like to let you know that probably as a result of the movie, the shows we've been doing, and all the interest, your book, The Monuments of Mars, a City on the Edge of Forever, is now ranked 877 at Amazon.com.
unidentified		Amazing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		877.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		Congratulations.
unidentified		Thank you, guys.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, it doesn't hurt for Time Magazine to say that it's an echo.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You know, my book is an echo of what DePalma has put on the screen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Another sign that it's hot, Richard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You save only 20%, not 30%.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, gentlemen, we're about out of time here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Final words, either one of you?
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		Tom?
		We need more pictures of Sidonia of ours.
		The whole region is rich in anomalies and artificial-looking objects.
		We need to know what those are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, facts, Dan Golden.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You know, you said earlier, you asked the question, did I think, or did Tom think that there were periods when Malin had taken secret images and not shown us?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think I said that.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And I think I can say yes, and I will give you one fact tonight.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's kind of like what happened between the time that Carl panned this work, Carl Sagan panned the work on Sidonia viciously, and then the book written on his deathbed, you know, Demon Haunted World, he basically said that Sidonia was science and urged new missions to go back and get new pictures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Which, of course, was just the point when all the new missions kept disappearing, tried to go back and get new pictures.
		I think that Dan Golden's change of heart, based on, you know, what he said Sunday about now 10 years to go to Mars and men and women has to be occasioned by something.
		And let's assume that we're dealing with sober, skeptical science, which from 98 to now has taken every opportunity to get for a group of scientists, some kind of team inside the agency, the best pictures of Sidonia to analyze so the administrator can basically build a case for a manned mission to Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, Richard, how much would it cost us to put on a manned mission to Mars?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, the numbers range from half a trillion, 500 billion, to a guy named Lowell Wood at one of the national labs, the Lawrence Livermore lab in California, who calculated ways to do it for between $8 and $10 billion.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So, you know, have it.
unidentified		Let's say it costs a quarter of a trillion dollars.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Imagine the science and technology and the wondrous heritage and history to be learned when you land in Sidonia and the astronauts find the libraries and the engineering and the science of an immensely old civilization that De Palma hints about in this movie.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		In other words, you can't cost-benefit this out because you're missing most of the reason for going, which is what's there waiting for us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well said.
		We're out of time.
		Ask Mr. Golden whether he just came into a large inheritance or he got some money from someplace we don't know about.
		Because I sure don't know where we're going to get that kind of money right now or in the next 10 years.
		Richard, thank you.
		As always, Erodite, just a wonderful person have on the air.
		And Tom Van Flandren, Professor, thank you.
		And I guess we're out of time.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Good night, Tom.
thomas charles van flandern ▲ ● ▼		Good night, Richard, and Art.
unidentified		Good night, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Night, Richard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night, Tom, America.
unidentified		That's it.
unidentified		And good night, America.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's it, folks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We are out of time.
unidentified		Tomorrow night, The Possessed.
		The Possessed.
		Bill White and Steve Kaplan discuss the award-winning and unusual Mom Politics magazine on a scale from 1 to 10.
		What would you rate this issue?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is definitely, let's say, 9.
unidentified		It's one of the best issues I've read in a long time.
		Frankly, I've been disappointed in a lot of them.
		Me too.
		I'm recording if you want to know the truth.
		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But this is a good one.
unidentified		Some people might want to see the magazine, and a great way of getting a free trial subscription to this very interesting magazine, which, by the way, is called Law and Politics, is to go to our website, which is lawinpolitics.com.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you want to find out if you're a really smart person, it's pretty sure if you've got an IQ of 130 or above, you will like this magazine.
		Well, if it's 130 or below, you will might not like it.
		So read it and just find out how smart you are.
unidentified		For your free trial subscription and to look at our list of super lawyers, visit us at law and politics.com.
		Law and Politics.
		Only our name is boring.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you took all the middlemen, Spence Diamond's employees, and lined them up back to back, oh, wait a minute.
		You can't.
		We don't have any middlemen.
unidentified		Well, I wish more people would do this.
		Prediction number 16.
		By the end of the year, everybody will know Ed Dames is full of something and it ain't truth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, Ed Dames is full of BS.
unidentified		Pretty much.
		You know, have you been watching the sun lately?
		Yeah, but you know what, Art?
		What?
		The sun has done incredible things for five billion years, and it's about halfway through its life, and it'll do incredible things for another five billion years until it turns into a red giant and slowly envelops this planet.
		And for the humankind's sake, by then, hopefully they'll know how to get off of this god-forsaken rock.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's not that bad.
unidentified		When you got characters like Mr. Dames and everybody else scaring people to death, here's my only question for Mr. Dames.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, if you think it's BS, then why are you scared?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You shouldn't be scared.
unidentified		Well, he don't scare me.
unidentified		He scares all these little old folks out here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you know?
unidentified		I talk to him, Art.
unidentified		I know many, many people who listen to your show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Aren't they capable of making up their own minds?
unidentified		Yeah, but, you know, you learn when Art Bell listens to this guy, you know, they put a lot of people.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I listen to all kinds of people, including you right now, right?
unidentified		Yes, you are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I let Ed Dames say what he wants to say, and I let you say Ed Dames is full of BS.
unidentified		Well, Art, have a good new year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		AI, you too, sir, and watch the sun.
		Now, he's probably correct with regard to the life of the sun.
		I don't think Ed Dames said the sun was going to die.
		I think what he said was that there was going to be an event, an ejecta event.
		Is that possible?
		You bet it is.
		That doesn't mean the sun is going to die, but we might.

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