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March 8, 2000 - Art Bell

02:26:34

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - John Nolan - Surveillance and Technology Issues

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	Welcome to Art Bell Somewhere In Time, the night featuring Coast to Coast AM from March
	8th, 2000.
	From the high desert in the great American Southwest.
	The soggy Southwest.
	It's raining again.
	Here comes that program heard from Hawaii, to the Caribbean, to South America, to North all the way to Poland worldwide on the internet, Coast to Coast AM.
	Hi there, I'm Art Bell.
	Great to be with you this morning.
	Well, let's see.
	The news.
	What a surprise.
	Bill Bradley readied an endorsement of Al Gore.
	So, in other words, if Bill Bradley is endorsing Al Gore, that means Bill Bradley's out of there.
	So that race?
	Over.
	John McCain cancelled further campaign events and signs his presidential... Some signs, rather, that his presidential nod was about at an end, so...
	It's all, it's all over.
	But the votin', the shoutin', the screamin', as I sadly predicted, Bush-Gore, Bush-Gore, Gore-Bush, Gore-Bush, Bush-Gore.
	God, who even cares?
	This has just caused me to lose all interest in the race between these guys.
	I don't care.
	They're gonna talk some real different talk.
	That's what I have to say about Bush.
	They're going to talk some real different talk.
	Their rhetoric is going to be very specific toward the party faithful.
	And the difference in the way the two of them would govern is this much.
	And I'm holding my fingers as close together as I can get them.
	That's my opinion.
	There's no difference in the way they're going to govern.
	You know, this is the kind of thing that, in my opinion, gives a lot of ammunition to all the conspiracy people who are always saying the fix is in and, you know, at the top the thing that's going to happen is going to be the party thing, the money thing.
	Can't argue with that, huh?
	Certainly the way it turned out.
	So again, my comment on the election and I will not do this much more, I promise.
	Absolutely disinterested.
	Now, this is something kind of intriguing.
	Oh my, this Mission to Mars movie?
	I may have some answers for you tonight, I don't know.
	I've got some feedback.
	Now, I don't have the trailer yet, the one Richard was talking about, but a zillion people have written to me saying they have seen the trailer.
	So it exists out there.
	The websites don't point to it.
	The ones that you gave me, the URLs you gave me, they don't have the original face on Mars in the trailer, movie trailer, or preview as some people know them.
	I haven't seen it yet, but a zillion people have said, yeah, it's there.
	I got this email from somebody supposedly on the inside.
	And it says, unfortunately, the conspiracy, in quotes, trailer, was originally conceived by the advertising department.
	And yes, somebody there did indeed say, quote, I bet this'll drive Hoagland effing nuts.
	My emailer says, ah, the price of celebrity, Richard.
	There were two, he goes on, this is Mr.
	Well, we'll just use CR.
	There were two... CR says, uh, there were two separate endings filmed, indeed.
	I have no idea which one was prepped for distribution.
	This is not an uncommon practice.
	M2M, or Mission to Mars, was well tested at Consumer Opinion Services.
	Well, maybe, but... This is one explanation, and I got a lot of these, so...
	It may be.
	Just let me read it.
	This is Rick.
	Rick writes, Dear Art, I just got back last night from a theater employee screening of Mission to Mars.
	My girlfriend called and said that they were going to show it.
	She works at the theater, so I jumped in my little GeoMetro mobile and was there.
	I think the real reason DePalma left town was because of negative press.
	This was a long, bad movie.
	I really wanted to like it, and it does have its moments.
	They actually had character development, which most MTV-watching people have no time for.
	Somewhat like The Right Stuff did, which was great.
	The audience was composed of theater workers and their girlfriends and boyfriends, and no doubt a few other people who must have been friends of friends.
	Sounds right, doesn't it?
	He goes on now.
	Here's where he fries it.
	About 20 minutes into the movie, the hissing began, and by the time people started dying in the movie, people in the theater were shouting, I'm glad you're dead!
	I hadn't seen anything like this since Jar Jar Binks first appeared on the screen.
	But back to DePalma.
	I came home and heard your show with Richard, I think the real reason he left was so many bad reviews.
	I don't think any filmmaker of his status wants to face bad press.
	Well, I don't know.
	He'll eventually have to say something, right?
	I have no way of knowing whether this is the way you will or I would feel.
	Here's another one.
	I have so many.
	Dear Art, I've been listening to last night's archive show from the internet, obviously, written today.
	My wife was able to procure two passes to the sneak preview of MDF And we saw it last night in Cincinnati, here in Cincinnati.
	Now, I'm not going to go into any details, because I don't want to spoil your viewing.
	But I will say that we were terribly disappointed with the picture's production.
	The basic story is good, obviously.
	The writers listen intently to coast-to-coast A.M.
	and Richard.
	Contrary to the possible implications Richard raised pertaining to the flight of De Palma, I feel he fled due to embarrassment.
	So, there is a couple of really heavy raps on this movie now.
	I wonder if, how the rest of us will view this.
	Remember 2001 when that movie came out?
	People in droves were saying, I don't get it.
	Actually, a lot of people still don't get it today.
	I'm not sure I do.
	I have my own concept of the ending of that movie, but it became a wonderful cult movie.
	Right?
	2001 was great.
	So, maybe this is in that category.
	she's for the one the line here that worries me is the one that says about
	twenty minutes in the movie
	the hissing began and by the time people started dying in the week people
	shot him glad you're dead
	pop pop pop pop pop uh... that's gotta be that's pretty
	pretty rough stuff i would say but you've got to consider that this is a
	distinct possibility of all the other ones that we have been considering
	this area.
	Thank you.
	And I'll see you next time.
	Bye.
	Got a picture I want you to see.
	Tomorrow night, we're gonna have a really unusual lady here, a Georgia Durante.
	Now, Georgia wrote a book called The Company She Keeps.
	Georgia was a getaway driver, a getaway driver for the Mafia.
	And I gotta tell you, if ever there was a classic photograph, the one I'm going to send you up to my website to see, is really a classic photograph.
	First of all, Georgia is, by anybody's definition, a stone fox.
	Oh, I mean, she is really good looking.
	But a getaway driver for the Mafia.
	Now that's going to be an interesting story.
	You've got to see the photograph of this lady that's going to be on tomorrow night.
	Absolute stone fox.
	Drove for the Mafia.
	I wonder how much she'll say.
	Don't you?
	I wonder how much she'll tell us.
	Alright, I have some serious news here.
	This is from all of you.
	For example, Hi Art, the wins In western Nebraska, eastern Wyoming, and the Denver-Boulder area, we're up to a hundred miles per hour last night, and into today.
	A whole subdivision has been evacuated outside Boulder.
	Now, you listen to this, a hundred mile per hour winds, A lot of roofs gone, of course.
	Power lines down.
	What you would expect from 100 mile an hour winds.
	But that's serious, serious stuff.
	Western Nebraska, Eastern Wyoming, and the Denver-Boulder area.
	Then I got this.
	Heartbreaking news.
	The city of Milwaukee was hit by a tornado.
	Now, I don't know that Milwaukee was hit.
	Somebody in Milwaukee can tell me.
	I don't know what a hit means.
	It says here, Here in winter, numerous reports of injuries, damages, especially by the Milwaukee Airport.
	Breaking news, he says, wow.
	Well, I don't have any other news article on it, but I don't doubt it.
	There probably was a tornado somewhere near Milwaukee.
	Somebody, I'm sure, will tell us.
	Or how about this?
	70 cities broke records yesterday as a March, quote, heat wave continued to build across the Northeast and the Great Lakes states.
	Temperatures have touched 80 degrees.
	80 degrees.
	West Virginia, Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania, New York City, and New Jersey will have a cooler day as a kind of backdoor cold front comes down, but I guess what I'm trying to say to you is, late in the show yesterday, I read to you an article entitled, Science Turns to Indians.
	And what it is, is basically that NASA has decided that they are going to put money into having consultations with American natives about climate change.
	You can read this article if you want to.
	It was a Gannett News Service article by Missy Globerman entitled, Science Turns to Indians.
	And I wish some climatologist would call me.
	Maybe one with guts.
	You know why?
	Because our weather is not just wrong now.
	It's way wrong.
	Everything is wrong, everywhere.
	Everything has been upside down.
	The weather has obviously massively changed on us.
	Certainly in my opinion, from reading the stories.
	I think most of you share that.
	So, in my opinion, it is time for some climatologist who cares about all of us out here.
	To come forward with something other than El Niño, La Niña, or whatever else you've got to explain away the outrageously changed weather.
	And in my view, it's just beginning.
	I mean, it's just beginning.
	So, I want somebody to come forward.
	I don't know how else to appeal other than to say some climatologist who's willing to discuss perhaps come and calm our fears and maybe he will tell us that why all of this is normal a normal cyclical thing within the weather cycles and you know that might be something I guess a climatologist might say but and that's fine I understand why they would say it but I've got to tell you this I wouldn't believe it
	There's something else happening, and I don't think they know what it is, and I think they want to know, and I think they're trying to find out.
	And I think, as we discussed last night on the show, that NASA's going to the American natives is not just some political tactic.
	I think they know something's wrong, and they're doing that is roughly, in my mind, the equivalent of, well, how best to put it?
	It's the equivalent of a police force that has been trying to solve some sort of murder, some sort of hard-to-solve, no-clues, don't-know-what-the-hell-we're-doing murder.
	You know, finally somebody picks up a phone and calls a psychic.
	To me, NASA's doing this is almost in that category.
	I really think that's a pretty good parallel.
	So, I'm after a climatologist.
	You know how to reach me.
	Artbell at Minespring.com is my email.
	If any climatologists out there would like to come and attempt to tell us what's going on, I would very much appreciate that.
	I'm sure the audience would, too.
	We'll be right back.
	Now we take you back to the night of March 8, 2000, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	And we'll be right back.
	Alright, as you know, I sleep a weird double shift to be able to do this program, and so I have a lot of sleep interruptions, so I have a lot of dreams, and here's a dream I had last night, and you can laugh at it if you want, um, but it's a dead truth.
	I have never in my life, first of all, you should know, I have never been a salesman.
	By that I mean somebody who calls up people and sells even commercial advertising on the radio, television, or any media, or never sold vacuum cleaners and encyclopedias.
	I've never been a salesman and sold anything in my life.
	But the dream I had last night was like a scene out of Glen Ross, the movie.
	You may not have seen that, or you may have, about some real estate salesman.
	And it was a pretty sad movie.
	But it was like a scene out of that, except get this.
	I've been... I was hired by this company to do advertising in a world under the earth where gnomes lived.
	A whole world down there, and moreover there were levels of this world, and you had to walk down steps to get to either, and I was complaining bitterly about there not being any elevator.
	Nevertheless, I needed this job, I guess, in my dream.
	And I should get it paid $60,000 or $70,000 to start.
	I'm trying to give you an idea of the detail of this dream.
	And I went down, for example, one of my clients was going to be this gnome, this little gnome, that had advertising tattooed all over him.
	And this was going to be one of my clients.
	And I'm thinking, what the hell am I getting into?
	And the world above, even the office, the scene out of Glen Ross, that's hard to say, especially fast, Glen Gary, Glen Ross, was that the floor was collapsing and the world on top was slowly falling in on the gnomes.
	Anyway, the dream went on in great detail It's like I was just dropped into somebody else's body.
	I had no relationship to my life whatsoever that I know of.
	Now, I know dream interpreters will say, yes, of course it has some relationship to your life right now.
	But it was a cool, it was a weird dream, and I felt like I worked when I was done.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from March 8, 2000.
	Dreaming, love will be mine.
	Searching, I'm always searching.
	Hoping, someday I'll find.
	Where are you?
	All those happy days, they seem so hard to find.
	I try to wait for you, but you have closed your mind.
	Whatever happened to our love?
	I wish I understood.
	It used to fade so nice, it used to fade so good Oh when you near me darling, can't you hear me echoing?
	My love you gave me nothing, you can't save me echoing When you're gone, have you not even tried to go home?
	When you're gone, though I try, I have tears on my face, oh She seems so far away, though you are standing near
	You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time The night featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from
	March 8, 2000 There never is going to be another Abba, they...
	I'm gonna miss you.
	They were just absolutely one of the best of the entire genre as far as I'm concerned.
	They recently turned down a billion dollars to get back together again.
	and I think it was a wise decision.
	Even Abba could never be that again.
	The Love You Gave.
	Absolute perfection in music.
	By the way, the photograph I want you to see of Georgia Derabe, who's going to be on tomorrow night, is on my website now.
	The way to get to it is good to go down to her name, and just to the right of her name, this woman who was a getaway driver for the mafia.
	Has her photograph.
	And, uh, boy, I'm telling you.
	An absolute stone fox.
	Mrs. Soprano.
	Off of the way.
	And more.
	It's gonna be an interesting, should be a very interesting interview tomorrow night.
	John Nolan here at the top of the hour, and we'll be talking more about Echelon and other stuff like Echelon.
	So that should be interesting.
	interesting. In the meantime...
	Now we take you back to the night of March 8, 2000, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	And now...
	I'm wondering if I should do a night of possessed people.
	This was a listener's suggestion that I thought had great merit.
	doing a whole night of people who are actually believe, who actually believe
	they are possessed by an entity you can see what kind of trouble that would invite for me
	ha ha ha ha ha ha ha And what I would get.
	I'm probably going to schedule a night of the possessed.
	I think I'm going to do it.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Going once, going twice, gone with the wind.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Yeah, hi.
	I was wondering if your network is going to continue.
	I mean, you're on three nights a week.
	That's correct.
	And the commercials, you know, can they fit any more commercials into your time slot here?
	I mean, my God, it's like a half hour of commercials.
	You know, if I were you, Yeah.
	I wouldn't ask.
	Okay, sir.
	I didn't mean to broach it.
	That's fine.
	I'm warning you.
	Be careful what you ask.
	These guys are really tightening it down.
	It's incredible.
	That article on the Indians, by the way, I hope you can scan it and get it on your website, but I don't know if that's going to happen.
	No, I tell you, by the time you have faxed a newspaper article to me, and then I take my already degraded fax and try and scan it, bad idea.
	It won't work.
	No way.
	And you know, those commercials, it's way out of line, but that's just my opinion.
	I don't mean to upset anyone.
	If you want to know the truth, it is the industry standard.
	In other words, if you listen to Rush or Laura or any of the others, you'll find the same amount of interest.
	I understand that.
	But I hear you.
	It's disappointing.
	Believe it or not, we are out here and we love you.
	And we'd like to hear more of you.
	I appreciate the sentiment, and all I can say, as we'll say, is that soon you'll have news on this subject.
	That's all I can say.
	Soon you'll have news on this subject, so patience for not very much longer.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello?
	Hi.
	Extinguish your radio, please.
	Yes, sir.
	I'm sorry about that.
	That's all right.
	It was my own voice coming back in, badly garbled digital cell phone.
	I apologize for that also.
	I'm calling in regards to last night's show.
	Yes.
	With your gentleman, Desert Chad, is that his name?
	Desert Chad.
	At the phone booth out in the middle of nowhere, yes.
	Right.
	I kind of found it hard to believe some of the things he was saying.
	I saw a thing on either a 2020 or a Dateline or something like that, one of those type shows, and the show had the phone booth on showed an older man that was out there that did that.
	No, like an elderly man who... No, this has absolutely got to be the right thing.
	His website's right on the money.
	It shows everything.
	It's all there.
	So you can check his website out.
	He's real McCoy.
	Okay, what was his website again?
	Because I'd like to... It's online.
	I don't know it offhand, but if you go to my website, the link is up there right now.
	Okay, and also with your Urban Legends last night, I really get into that sort of thing, and so I enjoyed your show last night tremendously.
	I drive every night from Knoxville to Nashville, Tennessee and back, and you and Raleigh keep me company all night long.
	There was one, sir, that we didn't cover, and I'm so sorry we didn't.
	It's the one about the fireman who's out skin diving.
	Who gets scooped up by the helicopter that's picking up water to put out fires.
	And dumped into the fire?
	Yeah, from a high altitude.
	Huh, I hadn't heard that.
	I hadn't heard that one.
	Yeah, it's going around.
	It's called, and you thought you had a bad day.
	No kidding.
	The one that I was thinking about, oh shoot, I tried to call in last night a bunch of times And tell it to you.
	Now you've lost it, haven't you?
	Yeah, it slipped my mind all of a sudden.
	All right.
	Is that your final answer?
	That's my final answer.
	Thank you very much for the call.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello, Art.
	This is Tawasi calling from Eugene, Oregon.
	Hello, Tawasi.
	I would like to encourage people to vote for a third party with a little Something that I thought of.
	And also make some comments on your... So you're going to just give them money?
	Um, no.
	How can you compete with political parties that damn near do that?
	I mean, George Bush had an interior decorator for his campaign office in Austin.
	An interior decorator.
	That's pretty sick.
	But this is my encouragement.
	My encouragement is that one of the candidates East of the Rockies, call toll-free 1-800-825-5033.
	Boldface, but he smoked marijuana.
	Matt, now about the global superstrum.
	I really think that, uh, I think that you were right on the money with that, um, at the end of the book, where you talked about solutions for the problems that we're facing.
	Yes, there's one area, by the way, in which Whitley and I somewhat differ.
	I really think that you're on the money list a bit about riding bicycles and getting away from the fossil fuels.
	I absolutely agree with that position.
	However, I don't think there's one chance in hell that that's going to happen.
	Not a chance.
	If you think people are going to cast away their automobiles, which rank probably somewhere next to the wife in terms of endearing feelings, or maybe sometimes even ahead of in some cases, Um, you're crazy.
	People are not going to give up their cars.
	Forget it.
	In Eugene here, we have actually quite a few people who have done it.
	And sitting in my picture window every morning, you see easily a dozen people ride by on their bikes.
	Well, I know, but if you took all the people that feel that way and put them together, you could kill them all with one 18-wheeler.
	Well, that's probably true.
	The point is that there are solutions out there.
	Yeah, sure.
	That's right, there are solutions out there, but not... Let's talk about workable solutions.
	Is everybody going to give up, or even most of the people in America, do you think they're going to give up their cars?
	To either walk, or heaven knows what.
	Get a bicycle.
	Yeah, right.
	What are the chances of that really happening?
	Sorry.
	I don't think one in... Well, let's see.
	Saganism.
	Billions and billions and billions.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hey Art, this is TJ from Milwaukee.
	How you doing?
	Good.
	Comment about the tornadoes you heard about.
	Yes.
	We did have one at the airport, that Mitchell International.
	Yeah, now this is...
	Wintertime.
	It's just the beginning of March, and we're having tornadoes that far north.
	Now, I really need a climatologist to come on board because I don't know what your memory is like, but this crap doesn't happen.
	No, this is, you know, the news up here seems to be saying that we are an additional city to this growing list of major metropolitan cities getting this type of strange weather.
	Well, You know, right.
	But what I want is some sort of an attempt at an explanation from a climatologist.
	And, you know, I know the minefield we have to go through and talk about global warming and all the rest of it.
	I don't know what the answer is, but I do know that we're in the middle of a change that they won't talk about.
	Okay.
	How's that for a bottom line?
	Well, I couldn't disagree with you.
	I mean, the weather around here has been strange to say the least.
	You know, we had 80 degree weather two days ago, breaking records all over the state.
	And now, tomorrow, or should I say later on today, it's supposed to snow.
	And we had a tornado last night.
	So, I mean, where is the continuity?
	I hear you, sir.
	I hear you.
	I appreciate the call.
	Thank you.
	There you have it.
	It's just that simple.
	It really is that simple.
	The weather is changing.
	We all know it.
	Anybody but a complete idiot would not know it.
	I think at this point it's far past any lame attempt at just saying, well, you know, it's part of a cycle.
	Which, actually, in the broader sense, might be true.
	But it doesn't address the rapid climate change that we seem to be going through.
	Not slow.
	Really fast.
	In terms of weather, this is occurring very quickly.
	Wouldn't you say?
	International Line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi, Art.
	It's Devin from Calgary, Canada calling.
	Hello.
	Just listening to you on the web.
	Yes.
	I've got a guest suggestion for you.
	Okay.
	Douglas Adams, the author of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, I'd love to have one.
	Are you with the group?
	Yes, I am.
	Of course I am.
	And I'd love to have one.
	Oh, great.
	Do you know when that's coming up?
	No, I don't know.
	You and I just now talked about it.
	How could I know when it's coming up?
	I don't know.
	That's all for tonight.
	Thanks a lot.
	Alright, you're welcome.
	I'm not that fast.
	Yes, I'd like to.
	I think I've said that before, too.
	I'd like to interview the man who wrote that.
	Great book.
	It'd be a fun interview, no doubt about it.
	First time caller on the line or on the air?
	Hi.
	Hi, this is Bill.
	Hello, Bill?
	Yes.
	Is this Art?
	What's your best guess, Bill?
	This is Art.
	Yes.
	You really don't sound like... You always say you never sound like Art, but you really don't sound like Art.
	You know, I can't even get a thrill out of that line anymore.
	Oh, really?
	I know I don't sound... You see... You sound really young.
	I've got to give you... Oh, thank you.
	I've got to give you an explanation of how things work in radio.
	Okay.
	Um, you're either listening on an AM station or an FM station.
	I'm listening to you on AM.
	AM, alright.
	Yes.
	This isn't ours.
	You don't think so?
	No.
	There's no way.
	So, you're on to me, huh?
	Yeah.
	This is a pre-recorded voice, isn't it?
	Dan, do you know that you're only, like, the fifth caller to discover that, sir?
	No, I'm serious.
	I'm serious, too.
	You're only the fifth one in the history of the show.
	You're only the fifth caller.
	It's all pre-recorded, then.
	That's right.
	It's like the movie Matrix, and none of what's happening is really happening.
	So it's all been done before then.
	Oh, time and time again.
	It's like a tape that plays over and over again.
	Endlessly.
	Just a big tape loop.
	It's alright though.
	It's amazing that you as a caller, one of the few callers in all these years, have done that.
	That's not right though.
	Well, what's right, what's wrong these days?
	I mean, if Earth people are going to be calling other people, I mean, it should be...
	It shouldn't be a voice recording.
	It should be a human being that they want to talk to.
	I'm sorry.
	The time for human beings is coming to an end.
	Are you serious?
	As serious as I've been about the rest of this call.
	Well, what about your son, though?
	I mean, you have a son, right?
	I do.
	Well, what's going to happen to him, then?
	Same thing as the rest of us.
	We're all going to die, then?
	I don't think I said that.
	I don't know.
	It's just kind of weird.
	I have a story to tell you about my cat, though.
	Well, I was waiting for your cat story.
	It's got to be fast, though, because I don't have a lot of time.
	This isn't Art Bell, is it?
	No, this is an automated voice.
	Proceed with your cat story.
	No, it's alright.
	I don't know how to talk to Art.
	Proceed with your cat story.
	I don't want to talk to a robot.
	Proceed with your cat story.
	This is not... Proceed with your cat story!
	Okay.
	Um... I have a cat named Sean.
	And he has a stash of rubber bands that he keeps underneath the fridge.
	Rubber bands?
	Yeah.
	And he pulls out a big rubber band that he hooks up between his forepaws and his back paws.
	And he plays it like a banjo.
	He plucks the rubber band with his teeth.
	And he plays it like a banjo.
	And he plays music.
	Your cat plays music?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I mean, you should see it.
	It's incredible.
	I've never seen it myself, but... Then, wait a minute, this is your cat?
	Yeah.
	So what do you mean you've never seen it yourself?
	Well...
	I've heard the music that he plays.
	Who?
	My cat.
	But I haven't seen your cat playing music?
	No.
	I've heard the music, though.
	I have a cat, and he has a stash of rubber bands that he keeps underneath the refrigerator.
	You are telling your story twice, sir.
	Well, this isn't art, though.
	No, this is not.
	You have caught us.
	This is not Art.
	Art appreciates your call, but such a call could never get on the air.
	We have hereby screened it out.
	So you think I ought to open the possessed line or not?
	How does that last caller make you lean for a yes or a no on the possessed line?
	I'm leaning more toward no.
	Stay right where you are.
	We will be right back, I think.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight an encore presentation of Costa Costa M from March 8, 2000
	I really want to see you, really want to believe in you, really want to see you love, it takes so long my love, my
	sweet love, my love, my love I
	I really want to know you.
	I really want to grow with you.
	I really want to show you love, and it won't take long.
	Hallelujah.
	I sing for you.
	I'm going to be a...
	Great to be with you.
	I'm glad you're here.
	Tonight's program originally aired March 8, 2000.
	Yes it is.
	And this nice music, Lorena McKenna.
	She is a Canadian artist and nobody else is doing anything like it.
	It's really awesome stuff.
	Coming up is John Nolan, who is a intelligence, counter-intelligence type.
	We'll have him talk about, get his version of Echelon.
	We've had a couple of versions of Echelon now.
	One from a lady who worked within, and says that we're spying on Americans.
	That's a very, very serious charge.
	Then we had an NSA guy who said, no, he'd be the first to report something like that.
	But he admitted he was a company man.
	And we'll see what Mr. Nolan has to say.
	Should be interesting.
	The whole echelon thing is interesting because of course it involves us.
	Now we take you back to the night of March 8, 2000 on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Here is the facts that got John Nolan on the air with me, and it was just as Echelon was.
	Echelon is a program that literally can listen to everything being transmitted in the world, according to most definitions I've heard of Echelon.
	From baby monitors, to telephones, to email, to everything, you know, everything you do.
	Dear Art, I spoke with Peter Klein, the 60 Minutes producer, For this piece about the numerous inaccuracies reported in his piece last night, according to Rod Mitchell.
	Considering that CBS's sources were primarily from Europe, and that NSA would not comment is no big surprise.
	There is a much bigger story here that you could break on your show, and your audience would find what Nolan has to say about it fascinating.
	I'm also trying to reach the lady in Las Vegas, and of course I've had her on the air.
	So, we did connect.
	John Nolan connected with me, or I with him.
	And he's in biz.
	And has been.
	He received his Bachelor of Arts degree, magna cum laude, with double majors in International Relations and Foreign Languages from Mount St.
	Mary's College, his Master of Arts degree in International Relations, distinction, from the University of Southern California, and his Master of Science in Security Administration from Central Michigan University.
	His professional training includes coursework at the U.S.
	Army Intelligence School, Fort Hubbard, Maryland, Defense Language Institute, Fort Bliss, Texas, and Monterey, California.
	Oh, yes.
	U.S.
	Army Intelligence Center and School at Fort Pachuca, Arizona.
	Numerous other courses and other institutions and locations.
	That's worded in an interesting way, such as elements of the Defense Intelligence Agency, and many formal courses and specialized tutorials in a variety of settings and technologies, ranging from certification and practitioner training at the Center for Application of Psychological Type to Behavior Modeling.
	Woof!
	So, there's your background, and here's John Nolan.
	Hi, John.
	Good morning, Art.
	How are you?
	Pretty good, I would say.
	Now, this phone has a little bit of hum in it, by the way, John.
	You are plagued with interesting phone problems over there.
	Well, that's life in the big city.
	Maybe that is life in the big city these days, John.
	That was an interesting laugh, which I'll recall and possibly record and play back.
	John, let's first talk about Echelon.
	You saw the 60 minutes piece done on it?
	Sure did.
	Did you see the lady on there that said that she'd been privy to a conversation with Senator Helms?
	Actually, I think she said Strom Thurmond.
	Oh, I'm sorry, Strom Thurmond.
	You're right, yes.
	Thank you.
	Yeah, and you know, that's not really altogether that remarkable.
	I can imagine somebody sitting down, doing his knob-twisting routine with his headphones on, and suddenly he comes across something that he recognizes as being reasonably interesting.
	It doesn't mean that he was Looking for Strom Thurmond, it's just that he got Strom Thurmond.
	And it doesn't mean that he was spying on Strom Thurmond to see what kind of sexual appetite he has at the age of 96 or anything like that, marrying a much younger woman.
	But rather, it was simply a matter of, hey, listen to this, guess who this is?
	A pretty prominent guy at that time, and still at this time.
	So that would be the kind of thing that would pique the young operators I could very easily see where you would wave to someone, as
	your guest alluded, as you walked by and said, Hey, listen to this.
	Guess who I'm listening to.
	When you're picking up literally millions of conversations a week or a month, and as
	you scan through them because of whichever keywords the dictionary has caused to come
	Tag it to be listened to.
	There is a list of those words floating around, by the way.
	It should be the official list.
	The official list starts off with... Have you seen it?
	Oh, sure.
	Is it accurate?
	The first word on the list is art.
	And the second word on the list is Bill.
	I can see this is going to be fun tonight, John.
	You have seen that list, though?
	In actuality, no, I have not.
	I do not know what the list says.
	I do not know how long that list is, although I would imagine that you're... It's two pages of small type.
	Every keyword you can think of, and the ones you might imagine, of course, like terrorism, bomb, fuse, kilo, on and on.
	Right.
	Whack.
	Snuff.
	Yeah.
	Snatch.
	Yeah.
	Those kinds of things.
	All of those things.
	And all of the variations in the various languages, of course.
	And so it's not just listening to people speaking in English, but people speaking in other languages.
	They have so many different languages.
	But it certainly includes English, John.
	And apparently, at times, includes us.
	Now, I understand your story about, ooh, cool, look who I found.
	Maybe.
	But the other possibility, of course, is that it is used domestically, to some great degree.
	Or, if it isn't, then the other truth is that we have the British listen to us, and we listen for them.
	Either way, the American people are being spied on.
	Now, is that the bottom line or not?
	I think that that's probably the bottom line.
	But please understand that those are people who are mixed in with all the rest of the people that are on the airwaves as well, whether they're French or whether they're Algerian.
	Oh, fine.
	So we share this lack of privacy with the rest of the world, is what you're telling me.
	Yeah, effectively.
	But I guess that the real issue is Are you waiting for the jackboot of fascism to come down on our individual necks here in the United States?
	Yeah, some people would ask that question.
	Yeah, exactly.
	I read something just the other day, it was a quote of a German professor who was visiting the United States and he was giving a speech in New York and he talked about the The black cloud of fascism is descending upon the United States.
	And I think it was somebody like Moynihan pointed out that while Europeans very often see the black cloud of fascism floating over the United States, it always seems to come to roost in Europe, however.
	Well, Europe is a lot different.
	The English are a lot different with regard to their internal security than we are.
	Really, a whole lot different.
	You and I couldn't be having this conversation legally in Great Britain.
	There's no way to help.
	The Official Secrets Act would have had both of our hearts cut out.
	They'd have us both in jail.
	Absolutely.
	Under the jail.
	And that's absolutely true.
	We have far greater rights.
	And of the very fact that we're having these kinds of conversations.
	We think we have far greater rights.
	We think we have.
	Well, every freedom is an illusion of one sort or another.
	It's just kind of like one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
	Yeah, that's really something to think about.
	Freedom is...
	How did you put it again?
	I think I said, every man's freedom is his own illusion or something.
	That's what you said.
	That sounds like the Matrix itself.
	I mean, here we are walking around thinking we're free and we're private and, you know, happy days are here again or still here or something and the world is a pretty cool place, but the world is actually a pretty scary place.
	A very dangerous place.
	I guess that one of the questions is, to what extent are you willing to give up a certain degree of your privacy as long as it doesn't affect you directly?
	For safety?
	Yeah, in exchange for your safety.
	And I would venture that if somebody were to have a complete and full understanding of the degree to which intelligence operations terrorists have been
	successful impediments to international terrorist activities directed against
	and within the united states i don't doubt it for a second then people would probably
	say yeah i'd be more than happy i mean i'm not in i'm not a uh... i'm a terrorist
	aren't you are you are a company man I haven't been.
	I've been out of the business since 1988.
	The argument you're making is the company argument.
	Oh, yeah, it's the company argument.
	I'm not saying you're wrong.
	I'm just saying you're giving us the stray lion company argument here.
	Well, I'm suggesting that perhaps people, if they stood back from it and said, how much of that am I willing to surrender?
	I'm also not saying you're right, by the way.
	Oh, I understand.
	I understand that wholeheartedly.
	What I am suggesting is that if people were given the opportunity to make a decision, Between surrendering some of that and not, then they would probably surrender it in exchange for the safety of their children.
	It's kind of like the way that... You're probably right.
	Well, you know, if you look at the East Bloc, people who live in Eastern Europe and people who are still very much communist-oriented people in the former Soviet states, they saw a great deal of comfort in knowing that the state was protecting them.
	And they make a very legitimate case now for saying that communism
	of practice or socialism going toward communism uh... in the uh... in the soviet model
	was actually very effective for stemming who mechanism and who'd loans and
	murderers and dope dealers and look at what capital is like uh... just
	like a show on his yes it's it's right
	yeah and so it provides you a certain degree of stability in an unstable
	situation but other people would say
	Hey, yeah, but that's like, uh, communism here.
	Yeah.
	Well, to a certain extent, government intrudes in all of our lives to a certain, perhaps even inexorable degree.
	I personally am not necessarily in favor of it.
	Please understand that, too.
	Personally, you're not in favor of it?
	Personally, sort of.
	You're arguing the case for it, though.
	Yeah.
	If I were to want to trade my family's well-being, and ultimately it comes down to trust, is my family going to be disadvantaged by the government, or would the government, for its basic purpose, and that is protecting its citizens from internal and external threats, then if it's doing that, then at some point you've just got to say, Ladies and gentlemen, I trust him.
	Or I don't trust him.
	That's an individual decision that people have to make.
	Well, I go back to your earlier statement.
	The freedom that we believe we enjoy in the privacy is, in fact, an illusion.
	Yeah, I think so.
	I mean, that's no small statement.
	It's an illusion.
	Things are no different here than they are in Britain.
	We are monitored as much as the British are monitored.
	It's just that we trade information back and forth, because otherwise, for our agency to do it would be illegal for the British.
	I don't know about the British.
	They're probably spying on their own people.
	In actuality, they've got more individual freedoms from other people than we do.
	But not from the government.
	But not from the government.
	That's right.
	Their government is much more intrusive than ours.
	And yet, at the same time, I, with a private investigator's license, can learn all manner of things about virtually any citizen.
	Of course.
	Because of the access that I might enjoy to a database.
	A series of databases.
	Yes, but if you as a private eye can do that, with the amount of access you have.
	Right.
	And actually, in truth, private citizens through the internet now have a lot of information gathering capability.
	Oh, absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	Then, try and imagine what the government itself has.
	Sure.
	In terms of ability to gather information about itself.
	Absolutely.
	You know, there are lots of constraints placed on government agencies, and so that's one of the other things that you kind of need to walk the fine line about when you're trying to assess the level of problems in a person's privacy, on a personal privacy level.
	That is to say, which bureaucrats are willing to actually break all of the laws that were put into place by the congress in order to monitor and provide oversight of the intelligence community during the nineteen seventies who is really willing to go to jail
	For violating certain rules.
	But technically, unless you want to talk about Echelon actually spying on Americans as a regular practice, it doesn't matter.
	I mean, if the British are doing the work for us with a wink and a nod, passing the information to us, then what's the diff?
	I mean, we American citizens have got to face straight up to it.
	We're being monitored full time.
	Full time.
	All of our stuff.
	Emails.
	Telephone calls, not listened to all the time, but monitored all the time.
	Right.
	And there's a... Right!
	That's a serious, serious thing.
	Yeah.
	When you think about it.
	Right.
	Really serious.
	And what you've got to do is decide, what am I going to do about that?
	If I were to be doing something about it, I would not reduce my Uh, my conversations to a cell phone or to a landline phone, I would not... How about this?
	Um, Kilo, Kilo, Kilo.
	I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!
	Yep.
	Bing!
	Art Bell!
	Wing, wing, wing, wing, wing, down in the middle of the desert.
	There he is.
	That's right.
	Scurrying about.
	That's right.
	Hold it right there.
	Kilo, Kilo, Kilo.
	I'm mad as hell and we may not take it anymore.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	tonight featuring a replay of coast to coast am from march 8th 2000
	oh oh
	oh all of the way
	oh every one in town
	He talked and talked, and I heard him say, That she had the longest, blackest hair, The prettiest green eyes anywhere, And the reason, eh, probably is strange.
	Though I smiled, the tears inside were a-burning, I wished him luck, and then he said goodbye, He was gone, but still his words kept returning What else was there for me to do but cry?
	Would you believe that yesterday This girl was in my arms and swore to me She'd be mine eternally And the reasoning of his latest flame This is one of Mr. Presley's lesser-known tunes, but I love it.
	It's always been my favorite, actually.
	I don't know why.
	I think it's the background.
	That music.
	Anyway, good morning, everybody.
	from March 8, 2000.
	John Nolan.
	And we're talking to him about echelon and privacy and whether we really want to trade the privacy we have.
	You know, actually, I guess academically you can consider that question if you want to, but the fact of the matter is That we weren't asked about that, or at least I don't remember being asked about that.
	Would I be willing to trade the privacy that I thought I had?
	This little world that I was living in, this bubble that I had, thinking that my phone calls and emails were really private.
	Nobody ever asked me if I'd be willing to trade it.
	They just, uh, you know, they took it away.
	Now we take you back to the night of March 8th, 2000, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	You know, I'd like to warn that computer running those commercials that, uh, I have shot machines before.
	I really have.
	I shot a computer once.
	An entire computer.
	So if you and your electronic blackness can hear me in there, in that machine, that's two.
	That's two.
	When we get to three, it's bullet-hole time.
	Now, very briefly, Daryl, a friend who faxes frequently, with regard to my final caller of the last hour said, I wonder if that caller voted in Tuesday's primary.
	Then again, I don't.
	For those of you who heard that caller.
	All right, back to John Nolan.
	As I said, it's kind of fun to talk to a spook, because you can ask all kinds of questions that they can only answer in certain ways, but you know, you do your best and it's fun to try.
	Hi, John.
	Hi, Art.
	Now, do you see what I'm saying when I say, When you pose the question to us about whether we'd give up that much privacy for that much safety, it's not like you're asking us before you do it.
	That's true.
	What I'm saying is they didn't ask us.
	They didn't ask you.
	As a matter of fact, this has all been part of a very a mystical and serpentine process by which I'm actually on your show tonight because Bill Casey asked me or assigned me to ask you tonight if you're willing to surrender in the interest of your personal safety.
	You know, Bill Casey now, of course, the former CIA director who's been dead for eight or nine years.
	It was a very long distance call.
	But he asked me to ask you if you're willing tonight.
	So are you willing?
	So obviously you're not.
	But you know, it's...
	John, John, John, John, John, John.
	I don't know.
	The answer is, I'll give you my answer right now, I don't know.
	I'm thinking about it.
	I'm thinking about it.
	That's my honest answer.
	I really don't know.
	I'm not prepared to give you an answer.
	Well, how about this?
	Let me ask you the question.
	Now, I...
	What I'm...
	John...
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	about is the fact that I wasn't asked.
	Right.
	You understand that?
	They're listening to me, and I wasn't asked.
	I understand.
	And that's a real concern that a lot of people would justify having got.
	So I guess the question is, what do you do about it?
	And that's the next logical follow-on question, is what do you do about it?
	And I think that there are some things that you can do about it.
	Yeah, you could try to have some law passed that the U.S.
	could not receive intelligence on any domestic Electronic transmission from any other country.
	But, I figure that's about one in a billion.
	Yeah, well, I mean, it gets to kind of like the issue of gun control.
	You're going to pass another law because a six-year-old shot another six-year-old?
	I mean, another law is not going to help, right?
	And you know as well as I do that, and as all of your listeners know, that laws are essentially just like locks.
	I mean, they're put there to keep Honest people out of your house.
	Laws are put there to keep honest people from doing bad things, and lawbreakers have a tendency to do that anyway.
	So I guess the issue is, if you want to go beyond trying to cause that one in a billion piece of legislation to make it up the chain, then what do you do?
	You take some personal actions.
	There are personal actions that you can take as companies take action.
	Like what?
	Well, for example, you remember last time I was on we were talking about my book, Confidential, and the third section of that is all dedicated to helping a company protect itself.
	But you know the exact same principles apply when you're Well, I don't know that, though.
	I know I'm being listened to, and I don't know what kind of threat that may represent.
	First thing is, you've got to have a rational level of awareness of what the threat is to
	Sure.
	you and who poses that threat to you.
	Well, I don't know that, though.
	I know I'm being listened to.
	I don't know what kind of threat that may represent.
	Sure.
	Well, on one level, you say everybody now understands, courtesy of you and many other
	people, that Echelon is capable of intercepting every phone call that everybody makes.
	So that means I will not discuss anything over a telephone line that I wouldn't want
	my mother to know about, or that I wouldn't want on the front page of the Wall Street
	Journal.
	I mean, there are very few times.
	But that includes...
	A whole lot of stuff, John.
	Oh, sure.
	I mean, a whole lot of stuff.
	I mean, let's face real facts here.
	There's a lot of guys who've got mistresses.
	Sure.
	There are a lot of guys who probably have mistresses of the same sex.
	Yeah.
	There's a lot of guys who have a lot of secrets out there.
	Sure.
	A lot of guys who have gone to visit a hooker and their wife doesn't know about it.
	Yep.
	Boy, we could just go on and on in every category you can business.
	Gee whiz, there's secrets you wouldn't want a competitor to know about.
	If you were an inventor, you might have a really big secret until the patent was approved.
	You're absolutely right.
	And all of these things could be at risk.
	Right, and that's what I'm suggesting is that if you don't have an awareness of that to begin with, Then you're going to go off willingly and you're going to say the wrong things in the wrong places, through the wrong medium, and it's going to have the chance of being picked up and identified with you, etc.
	Then you have to have an understanding of what it is that is important for you to protect.
	That's at the very core of it.
	What is it that I want to protect?
	If I don't have one, but if I were to have a mistress, then I would say, I want to maintain A certain level of secrecy.
	Are you married?
	Oh, 31 years.
	Matter of fact, today is our anniversary.
	Today is your 31st anniversary?
	Happy anniversary to you!
	This would be a very poor day for you to say on the radio, actually I've got a mistress.
	So, let's reason this out.
	If you really did have a mistress, would you be likely today to admit it?
	Oh, probably not.
	Probably not.
	I certainly wouldn't with some of my friends who know that my wife is a nurse and she works with sharp objects.
	She knows all about John Wayne Bobbitt.
	I want to be clear on that, and I'm clear now.
	She may not be, but I am.
	So the deal is that if you know somebody, she may not.
	That's why she's sleeping upstairs.
	The deal is that if you know what it is that you need to protect, whether it's your secret patent application elements, whether it's your mistress, whether it's your bank account, whether it's the dope that you're selling to the guy down the street, whatever it is, and you know that that's got certain nuggets to it, Then you just don't place those nuggets out there where other people can find them.
	You don't put them in the newspaper.
	You don't talk about them over the phone, etc.
	The second part of it is knowing who can get that from you.
	Who has an interest in getting that from you?
	May I ask you a question?
	Sure.
	I know that a bunch of the high-profile drug dealers in South America that were caught were caught with the help of Echelon.
	Yep, you're right.
	And now, they've had some pretty big busts here in this country, too.
	Yes.
	Is it not reasonable to conclude that a lot of those have been with the help of the British version of Echelon?
	That would be a reasonable conclusion, I would think.
	Okie dokie.
	What I would suggest even further is that from time to time, when you hear an explanation For how a terrorist activity was prevented or a law enforcement breakthrough occurred.
	Sure.
	You know, I'll give you all this, that all of this is happening and that it is to our benefit as a society.
	And the important part is that maybe half of the time You're only given part of the story as to how they uncovered it.
	Oh, I firmly believe that.
	And most successes of Echelon or programs like it are the ones that you never ever know about.
	You're never going to hear about them.
	That's absolutely true.
	The good things they did.
	And that's absolutely true.
	You know, there's another element, and it's who is going to use what it is that they've gotten from you.
	Now, we've so far talked about Echelon and American Well, that's all you accuse something of.
	That is, the UK, the United States, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada.
	Those are the five countries involved in the Echelon Project, right?
	That share.
	Yeah.
	You must also understand that there is a French Elan as well.
	That is, a joint venture between the Germans and the French.
	Well, now, there's a surprise.
	Usually, the French don't want a damn thing to do with anybody else.
	They do it themselves.
	Well, that's... Well, you know, back in the days of the...
	Back in the days of the Cold War, the East Germans had a terribly difficult time with their signals intercept sites being able to pick up American, German, and British military and aerospace defense industry information from Bavaria and southern Germany.
	And so what they did was, because they couldn't get enough coverage there, They relied upon their ability to penetrate the French who were monitoring the Brits, the Americans, and the Germans.
	And then, when the French were downloading their stuff and sending it back to Paris from B.C.T.
	and their primary listening stations, that's when the East Germans put the grabs on the information that the French had already collected against the Americans, the Brits, and the Germans.
	See, I imagine all that, and I imagine very high deals made and swaps of information made and my
	imagination just virtually runs away with me, John, and I don't think I'm wrong.
	No, let's go to another piece of it, though, that may be a little bit more close to home
	that you may even find of some interest, and it may have been what Rod was talking about.
	As you know, the whole reason for my book and the whole reason for me being on with
	you tonight is that I'm a former intelligence officer and that now we do business intelligence
	work.
	Companies hire us to find out what their competitors are doing and to help protect them from their
	competitors.
	Right.
	And we don't operate just in the United States, we operate outside the country as well.
	No kidding.
	In the private sector, you operate outside as well.
	Oh, absolutely.
	Today we undertook two new projects in Eastern Europe.
	One in the Czech Republic and one in the Slovak Republic.
	Not unusual.
	And who are we using?
	We're using people who are former intelligence adversaries.
	Okay.
	Really?
	Oh, absolutely.
	We have a group of folks that have offices in Kiev and Moscow who are former KGB and GRU guys.
	And we meet them now.
	We've got a kind of... So in other words, we all know that Russia is falling apart, virtually, truly falling apart, basket case time.
	You got it.
	Right.
	And so you're saying you've hired former KGB agents.
	Oh, sure.
	Because they need the bucks, that's for sure.
	Sure.
	They're in business just like we're in business.
	And they have access to information of competitive value relating to businesses in the former Soviet states.
	And when we have clients who are interested in doing business in those areas, they come to us and say, do you have people whom you can access there?
	And the answer is yes.
	We've built up a network around the world of former intelligence officers.
	From a variety of friendly and not so former friendly countries.
	And when we're getting information on behalf of our clients, we're using a wide range of people like that.
	So this group of former KGB GRU guys made me an interesting offer not too long ago.
	Probably 10 months ago.
	We haven't taken them up on it.
	We haven't had an occasion to do it yet.
	What kind of offer?
	Let me tell you what this offer was.
	Are you familiar with Lourdes?
	You know what Lourdes is?
	Lourdes is a listening station that the Russians, the Soviets, built back in the days of the Cold War and put on the island of Cuba to listen to, to intercept, U.S.
	military and political telephone conversations, up and down, from the Gulf Coast to Maine.
	Never for one second did I doubt that that was there.
	Now, in the high point of the Cold War, there were about 1,200 people there, Russians, mostly English speakers, and some Spanish speakers, who would be intercepting Voice communications along the eastern seaboard and up the Gulf Coast, up the Mississippi.
	Yes.
	Now, you know that in the early 90s, their economy started to go toes up.
	Oh, yes, indeed.
	And as a result, they had to withdraw, not retrench, and withdraw all of their forces from the group of Soviet forces in Eastern Europe and A massive amount of the aid that they had been going to Cuba and other places got cut off.
	I know.
	And so you would think that those 1,200 people sitting there at Lourdes would have gone away, right?
	Well, or at least they certainly would have been downsized, the right version of downsized.
	And that's exactly what did happen.
	In the KGB and GRU presence in the United States, they went from about 250 officers Uh, in the United States, down to, like, 70-something.
	Last fall, they were back up over 400.
	Really?
	In the United States.
	This is case officers operating in the United States.
	Wow.
	Oh, yeah.
	Um, there's a bunch of material on that.
	As a matter of fact, Mr. Gore talked to Khrushchev, uh, Khrushchev about that, and Khrushchev told him, stick it in your ear.
	You know, Al said, hey, get these guys out of here.
	Why are you sending so many more spies to the United States?
	We're supposed to be friends.
	And he said, hey, we'll do what we want to do.
	But the interesting thing is... To be honest, though, that's no different than the French.
	Oh, no, that's no different than the French.
	But the interesting part is that at Lourdes now, there are 2,300 people.
	And what are they collecting?
	Um, I don't know.
	They're collecting economic and personal information now.
	And it is available for sale.
	It's available for sale.
	Great.
	Now that's just really spiffy.
	So then are you telling me that an American citizen, if he knew the right route to go and had the money, could purchase information about a corporation's activities in America?
	Yes.
	Holy crap.
	But he could buy it from the Russians, who have got everything for sale.
	So that's the scary thing, as far as I'm concerned.
	Not whether the American government... I agree.
	Holy... Good Lord.
	That's, uh... I mean, that's what these fellows have advised me is available.
	I have no reason to disbelieve them because they provided this all manner of... Oh, I have no reason to disbelieve any of this stuff either.
	Hold on, John.
	That's a real oh-my-God item.
	So if you want to buy information on your corporate enemy and you have enough money in the right path, the spooks listen and tell you.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from March 8, 2000.
	I gave you love, I thought that we had made it to the top.
	I gave you all I had to give, so I didn't have to stop.
	You've blown it all sky high, by telling me a lie Without a reason why
	You've blown it all sky high You've blown it all sky high
	Only in America can a guy from anywhere Go to sleep before her and wake up a millionaire
	Only in America can a kid without a cent get a break and maybe grow up to be president.
	We've got a spook on tonight.
	His name is John Nolan.
	I say that with affection.
	You fall for a poor boy like me You're listening to Octavell's Somewhere in Time
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from March 8, 2000
	We've got a spook on tonight, his name is John Nolan I say that with affection, he'll be right back
	Lonely days, lonely nights Where would I be without my woman?
	You're listening to Octavell's Somewhere in Time Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from March
	8, 2000 Now I want you all to understand that actually, I
	understand God bless you.
	Intellectually, the need for the kind of security that we're talking about tonight, drastic as it may be, I actually do understand the need for it.
	The others are doing it.
	We've got to do it for our own national protection.
	I mean, that's something we have to do.
	But, We also, at least apparently, have enough freedom to be able to talk about what's really going on and tell you what the other side of the matrix looks like.
	You know, the one you're living in?
	and this is what it looks like we'll be right back with john norris
	and and
	and Take my heart, my soul, my money
	But don't leave me drowning in my tears You say you're gonna leave
	Gonna take that big white bird Gonna fly right out of here
	Without a single word But you know you'll break my heart
	When I watch you close that door Cause I know I won't see you anymore
	Oh, for your love I owe me, baby If you do that I'll take it, baby
	I'll just leave it down here Art Bell Somewhere in Time
	Tonight's program originally aired March 8, 2000 Well, my guest is John Nolan.
	We'll tell you about his book in a moment.
	Because he's been very kind and hasn't plugged in anything.
	So we'll have to do that.
	He does have a book.
	And he's being pretty straight with us all, I think.
	Which is interesting.
	And I mean, you know, to some degree, obviously, whenever you're talking to somebody like this, you have to, uh, uh, you know, listen a little bit between the lines, but, uh, to his credit, thus far, not that far between the lines, and every laugh tells you something.
	2000 on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Alright, we're about to go to the phones and this ought to be really, really interesting.
	Thank you.
	John Nolan, however, has a book out, or is it two books now?
	I don't know.
	It's just the one right now.
	The one right now, and that book is?
	Confidential.
	And what is it?
	And it's uncovering your competitors' top business secrets and protecting your own.
	And protecting your own.
	Protecting your own.
	Which is what I was alluding to earlier, that companies have to take certain measures to protect themselves and so do individuals.
	Individuals can follow the same format that's laid out in that whole third of the book on protecting themselves.
	Developing the appropriate countermeasures to whatever it is that you see the people who are working against you are using.
	Say, for example, you've got people going through You're a trash can looking for your credit card bills.
	Then obviously what you do is you start either burning them or shredding them.
	You don't put the things out in the trash can.
	I've always done that.
	Well, not everybody does.
	I mean, I'm not here talking Shredders at your local Office Depot or anything like that.
	That's a good idea.
	We could sell a shredder.
	If I had a shredder to offer tonight, I bet I'd sell a zillion of them.
	Well, make sure you get a cross-cut shredder, not one of those strip shredders.
	Cross-cut shredders are infinitely better.
	Cross-cut.
	So you've got to have a cross-cut.
	In other words, it not only makes the thin little lines, but then cuts across them.
	Right.
	And it'll cut it into things that are about an eighth inch square.
	As opposed to rendering it to the point where even the best puzzle person in the entire world would shrug their hands and say, get me out of here.
	One would hope.
	Well, one would hope that he's serious about it and doesn't throw his hands up because then another 10 million pieces of confetti will fly all over.
	That is effective.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	And you know, it's really surprising people think that Well, I'll just tear this in quarters.
	When we're doing penetration projects, when companies hire us to find out what their vulnerabilities are, and we'll do some waste archaeology.
	There, I fail.
	I tear it in as many pieces as I can with my hand, and that's it.
	Well, most people, when they go to tear something up that's got some importance, They tear it into quarters, and then throw it into the trash can.
	Yeah.
	What does that do?
	That sets off a signal light for our guys.
	Oh, good.
	They thought this was simple enough that they would tear it in quarters.
	And so, I mean, it takes hours and hours and hours, of course, to try and figure out how those four pieces of paper go back together again.
	Yeah, but if a credit card company got some application that was all messed up, crumpled up, and obviously scotch-taped together... Sure.
	Wouldn't they?
	Well, one would hope.
	Well, they wouldn't do that.
	You see, what they would do is they would put that all together, okay?
	You take the four pieces, or however many, and then you put them all together, and you see what the draft of the application looks like, and then you just fill it out in your own hand.
	And then that way, when the signature goes in, for the credit card people, then with the phony address to which you're having the... Then it's your signature.
	Then it's your signature.
	Oh, God.
	I mean, that's the whole nature of that beast.
	I'm not trying to tell people how to be crooks, because crooks already know how to do it.
	It's interesting you brought up the word beast.
	Well, yeah.
	666 on your forehead.
	A lot of people think that these things that we're talking about right now... Don't happen.
	No.
	No, they don't think that.
	They think these... well, maybe some do, but they're just naive.
	Right.
	A lot of other people, though, think that this is, in fact, The sign of the beast.
	Would you disabuse them of that thinking?
	Well, I guess that now you're getting into my theology a little bit.
	A little.
	I mean, would you disabuse that notion?
	No, I would not.
	You wouldn't?
	No, I would not simply because I try and look at the history of our civilization and I look at people doing things now.
	Ten years ago, fifteen years, thirty years ago, fifty years, a hundred years ago, they would never have thought about doing to their fellow man.
	There has to be some influence.
	I really believe in the balance between good and evil.
	I spent twenty-plus years in the intelligence community looking after things that I thought had relationship to the forces of good versus the forces of evil.
	I firmly and fully believe that that somebody is an influencing agent either for good or
	for bad.
	And in our situation these days, we have an awful lot of evil about the world.
	Is there any place in the world to equal the intelligence agency with regard to its view
	of good and bad?
	And any place where it is more mixed, where it is harder to delineate between good and
	bad than in the kind of work you do?
	Well you know that's really a tough and a very good question.
	People who do intelligence work are expected on one hand to do some of the most difficult and I won't be dramatic by saying most dangerous stuff, but challenging It's intellectually challenging and many times physically
	challenging.
	Spiritually challenging as well in many respects.
	And sometimes, often, very important things.
	And in so doing, you make a value judgment as to whether this is more important than
	that.
	And as a result, you say some eggs may have to get broken in order to make this omelet.
	Some people need to die as a result of, in order to be able to achieve this objective.
	So you were an egg breaker?
	Yeah.
	Omelette maker?
	Omelette maker.
	And so you have to make those kinds of choices at certain points, right?
	Well, and this is the interesting paradox of the intelligence community, is while you get people who will Be willing to do those things that are necessary to be done.
	And sometimes, many times, you're asking them to break international laws, because as you are well aware, espionage is one of the few international crimes.
	So you're asking them on behalf of the nation to become a felon, an international felon, whether apprehended or not.
	And yet, you hold them to a standard that's almost like a Caesar's White standard.
	You've got to be pure.
	As the driven snow, when dealing with your national command authorities, your elected leadership, as well as the people who are appointed over you.
	Well, let's see how that translates.
	Hypothetical situation.
	You are in one of the alphabet agencies.
	Yeah.
	Who cares?
	NSA, CIA, whatever.
	Yeah, whatever.
	And so you get this assignment.
	That has you in essence listening to a person you know to be a political opponent of the administration now in office.
	Right.
	Do you follow your orders?
	The truth?
	Would I?
	No.
	Do you think that most... I'm not commenting on yourself.
	All right.
	And I'll pull you away from this.
	What percentage of those serving our government in such capacity, in your view, would refuse to refuse those orders?
	98, 99.
	Really?
	Absolutely.
	I mean, think about it.
	I'm not... On my level, I would say, on a personal gut level, I'm not going to jail for some SOB's political machinations.
	Well, I mean, that's on the one hand, right?
	That's on one level.
	On the other hand, you're holding your career in your hands.
	Right?
	Well, you know, that's the whole issue.
	Remember I was talking about the level of morale in the intelligence community these days?
	Right.
	It makes me crazy to think that when I give a lecture at one of the letter agencies, And people come up to me, when we take a break after, and say, I'm going to give a three-hour lecture.
	And at the midpoint, we're taking a break, and a quarter to a half of the group come up to me and hand me resumes.
	I mean, these are mid-course, mid-career intelligence officers who come up and hand me resumes that they're carrying around in their briefcases.
	Now, I will tell you, Art, when I was getting ready to leave the government, It was over 20 years before I even thought about writing a resume.
	And yet here are people who are so uncertain of their careers, so uncertain of their ability to remain, that they're not waiting for the axe to drop on them anymore.
	They're not looking to be able to fulfill a career.
	Now, are there careerists who will do anything in order to enhance their career?
	Yes.
	What they are ordered to do.
	Or what they are ordered to do.
	They will either undertake orders.
	They will undertake to fulfill illegal orders.
	There will always be those people who will be a very, very small minority, whether they're in the military or whether they're in the intelligence community or wherever they are in government or in business.
	There are people who will always do whatever it is that the boss wants them to do in the interest of career enhancement.
	That's got to be a given across every aspect of human endeavor.
	Okay, so your book, anyway, your book, back to that for a second, will instruct what companies and individuals in ways to regain some of what obviously we've already discussed that is already lost.
	Sure.
	On one level, you know, the whole book was written for the purpose of leveling the playing field, and the origins of it were in protection.
	That is helping people understand how others get information from you, the techniques used by intelligence people.
	Many of the people who bought the book as a result of the last time that we talked, and I thank you very much for having mentioned it previously as well, many of the people who have done that have written to me and said, Hey, I'm a nurse.
	I bought this book and I used it to deal better with my patients.
	Some guys, PIs, have written and said, this opens a whole new realm for me of gathering information instead of having to interview or interrogate people for it.
	At the same time, when you understand how people get information from you, then you can take certain protective measures.
	Once you appreciate how somebody is going to approach you, then you can be much more on guard.
	That's whether you're afraid of a government guy coming to you, or a private guy.
	Or a scam artist of some sort?
	Because, I mean, these kinds of techniques are not peculiar only to the intelligence community.
	But, I mean, do you realize what you've told the American people this morning?
	That really, they're living in this matrix where they think they're really free, where they think they're really, they have real privacy, where, you know, the old-fashioned view of America If anybody has listened to you tonight, and even slightly listened between the lines, all of that is shattered.
	That's a bunch of BS.
	There's no such thing.
	That's a big thing to tell the American people, and it really is.
	Well, it's really a true statement.
	I understand that.
	I just say it's really something to lay on.
	Let's take a few calls.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with John A. Nolan.
	Hi.
	Well, I lived in Canada for two years.
	I still think we've got more freedom here than in Canada.
	Last time I tried to enter Canada, they took my word processor and all my discs and kept them for two months.
	What?
	Did they really?
	Yeah.
	Because I had some controversial opinions and controversial connections and they wanted to get all my names and addresses.
	off of my discs. Wow. Yeah.
	You got stopped by customs officials on the Canadian side of the border?
	Yes, I was entering Canada at Fort Erie and they took my word processor and my discs
	and kept them and denied me entry to the country. Wow.
	And they kept them for two months.
	That's really, really, really interesting because we were talking about the difference between Britain and the U.S.
	and, John, let's address Canada for a second.
	How does Canada stack up in the scale between, say, Britain and the U.S.?
	Is Canada closer to Britain in terms of what it can do and will do for national security?
	Well, certainly, and you've got to understand that virtually all of the Canadian laws derive from their relationship as part of Great Britain.
	The whole nature of their economic structure and the whole nature of their political structure and their legal structure are mirrors of the ways that the Brits operate things.
	Even to the level of taxation.
	To the great dismay of many of my Canadian friends.
	Who hate the... Yeah, but in terms of, for example, control over press.
	In England, if they want to stop a story, that damn story dies.
	It never gets on the air.
	Period.
	They have the power to stop it.
	How about in Canada?
	I'm not 100% certain, but I believe that it's very close.
	Although, you know, the Canadians Are in many respects a little bit more iconoclastic than the average Brit.
	That's just my experience.
	A little bit more cowboy-ish.
	A little bit more like Americans than they are Brits.
	But still, the fundamental aspects of their laws relate to the British model as opposed to the American model.
	Yeah, that's exactly what I thought.
	Thank you.
	Wes for the Rockies, you're on the air with John A. Nolan.
	Thanks, Art.
	Dago Dave here in Phoenix.
	I want to preface my statement with the Dago Davism for you.
	How free is a society if the government is afraid of its own people?
	Now, I want to go back to your question about trading, well, privacy, I guess, for security.
	Do we need to feel so safe that we should let These intelligence agencies invade our private communications all for the sake of quote-unquote security.
	Quite frankly, you know, I own a couple guns.
	I'm quite capable of taking care of myself.
	Thank you very much.
	I don't need, I don't need the government invading my privacy.
	That sentence that you just said, Is probably enough to get this telephone conversation monitored.
	About owning firearms?
	Yes, and then the rest of it.
	Yeah, no doubt.
	Sort of an anti-government statement.
	Guns, anti-government, guarantee somebody's going to listen to that conversation.
	But it's not anti-government.
	Well, I didn't say it was.
	I said that it could be heard that way and kicked out like a bad dream to be listened to by some poor operator somewhere.
	Yeah.
	Right, John?
	I would suggest that there's a possibility of that.
	There's always a possibility that some guy sitting at a console is going to see that pop up.
	but in point of fact of the issue is that it's not
	or the purpose identifying whether they are
	statements that support your constitutional right to bear arms
	your appropriate personal right to bear arms for the competition we guarantee
	or not uh... but the simple fact of the matter is that yours
	that you're not saying anything that is inflammatory or or that is uh... or maybe slightly inflammatory to some
	people's ears is nonetheless
	or a legal expression if you however were to be saying
	first-time callers area code seven seven five You know what, John?
	I'm going to tell you straight out, I had to just censor that.
	I had to censor that, and I'm going to tell you why, John.
	If I'd let that statement, even the way you just said it, go out on the air, they'd be knocking on my door, and they've done it plenty of times in the past.
	The Secret Service would be here before you could say, How come you didn't hit the button on that one?
	No, I'm serious about that.
	Okay.
	Well, I was giving you as an example.
	Yeah, Paul, your broader question about security for safety.
	Yeah.
	Well, you know, it takes me back to my original statement.
	You know, how free is a society if the government is afraid of its own people?
	How free is the society if the government is afraid of its own people?
	That's an excellent question, and you see that in all those totalitarian countries.
	Well, can you give an excellent answer to it?
	Not me.
	I'm sorry.
	I might have missed your excellent answer.
	What was that?
	Not very.
	Not very excellent?
	No, no.
	Not very free as a society when the government is that unsure of itself that it has to take deterritorian steps in order to protect itself.
	Alright, Jones.
	Hold on.
	We will be right back.
	I'm Art Bell.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight an encore presentation of Costa Costa M from March 8, 2000.
	The world and the seven seas, everybody's looking for something.
	Some of them want to use you. Some of them want to get used by you.
	Some of them want to abuse you. Some of them want to be abused.
	The world and the seven seas, everybody's looking for something.
	Oh, sweet dreams are made of this, who am I to disagree?
	Oh, sweet dreams are made of this, who am I to disagree?
	It is the night, my body's weak I'm on the run, no time to sleep
	In the night, my body's weak, I'm on the run, no time to sleep
	I've got to ride, ride like the wind To be free again And I've got such a long way to go To make it to the border
	of Mexico So I ride like the wind, ride like the wind
	I was born a son of a lonely man I was born a man with a gun in my hand
	Lived my life, done your deed Gonna ride like the wind And I've got such a long way to go To make it to the border
	of Mexico So I ride like the wind, ride like the wind
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from March 8th, 2000.
	Put another way, you can't ride fast enough to really get freedom.
	Not real freedom.
	Now we take you back to the night of March 8th, 2000, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	All right.
	Once again, John Nolan, hanging in there with us.
	Thank you, John.
	Your book's name again, please?
	Confidential.
	Confidential.
	Now, Confidential, I take it, is available in bookstores?
	Yes, indeed.
	It's also available through your website, right?
	Through that Amazon.com link, I think.
	What is the regular on-the-shelf price for your book?
	$26, I think.
	Yeah.
	And when you go to Amazon.com, how much is it?
	Actually, right at Christmas time, they raised it up to $26.
	I guess it was... I guess they figured they could make more money by not reducing the price.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	That made me a little bit crazy.
	It had been like a $18... Yeah!
	And they're supposed to give, like, a 30% discount.
	Yeah.
	And then they, uh... What the hell?
	I have no idea.
	They... They raised it, uh... Apparently... Ho, ho, ho!
	They thought they'd make more bucks off it.
	And now?
	Uh, frankly, I haven't looked at them.
	You haven't looked?
	No, I'm sorry.
	I really haven't.
	I guess it's a failure on my part.
	Well, I'm going to look for you.
	I'm going to go flog myself.
	I'm going to look for you here in a minute.
	I'm going to log on to my own website if I can and go down and go over to Amazon.com and see how much they want for your book now.
	Maybe because you haven't done a show in a while, they have taken it back to its original price.
	Let's find out.
	I think when it first came out, it was 1870, and somebody told me just before Christmas that they'd put it up to 26.
	Their explanation for it was one of the book people said that they have a... Man, would you look at this right on there?
	I see your book, Confidential.
	Here it is.
	Nolan, list price $26, hour price $24.70.
	You saved $1.30.
	What has happened to Amazon?
	I don't know.
	I've never seen this before.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	It started out at like $18.70, then apparently it's... It says you saved $1.30, 5%.
	I've never seen this before.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	It started out like 1870, then apparently it's...
	It says you save $1.30 5%.
	My goodness.
	You must be a really special case, John.
	I don't know what the story is.
	All right.
	I should pay more attention to that kind of stuff.
	Yeah, you really should.
	First on the production side, not on the other side.
	First time on the line, you're on the air with John Nolan.
	Hi.
	Hey, J.D.
	in San Diego.
	How you doing?
	Good.
	I was wondering, speaking of the government and what they can do and what they can hide, if you heard about Egypt tonight.
	What about Egypt tonight?
	They found those 100 mummies intact.
	I guess they found them three years ago and Egypt's been keeping them a secret for the past three years.
	I knew about them, sir.
	Oh, you did?
	Yes, I knew about them.
	Oh, I see how you are.
	That's pretty good.
	I guess they're going to tour 10 of them.
	They're just in perfect condition.
	I saw your friend, the guy that You said he's pretty much the head of Egypt when you got to go into the sarcophagus.
	No, I said he was the head of Giza, the plateau area.
	He's in charge of the plateau area.
	Yeah, I can't remember his name, but it rang a bell when I saw it.
	His name is Dr. Zahi Awass.
	Yeah, that's it?
	Yeah.
	Alright, well since you already knew I thought it was interesting to hit it for three years.
	You should have seen, when I was in Egypt and Zahi was taking me around, When I tell you that he is like, more like the dictator of Giza, I'm telling you the truth.
	I mean, when he said something, man, people hopped.
	Sure.
	And if there was a secret area and he wanted you to see it, you were there like that.
	Shazam.
	I mean, yeah, Shazam is right.
	So the phone call thing is making me a little worried.
	Yeah.
	Keywords, you're saying, are something that they could just tap right into?
	Yeah, sure.
	On any phone call, huh?
	Yeah.
	Because I live in California, and I unfortunately... It doesn't matter where you live.
	You're not getting the point here.
	It doesn't matter where you live, it doesn't matter where you are in the world, and it doesn't matter what medium you're using.
	You're not safe.
	They can just tap on in whenever they want.
	No, it's not a matter of tapping in.
	It's a matter of gathering it out of the ether.
	Always listening would be closer.
	Great.
	Make me more paranoid.
	Yeah.
	Well, it doesn't mean... Even though you're paranoid, it doesn't mean you don't have enemies.
	Yeah, right.
	That's a good one.
	I think I'll write that down.
	I have a few friends that I would like to tell that to.
	Even paranoids are occasionally captured, tortured, and murdered.
	Yes.
	Good.
	I got something to look forward to.
	Hey, it was a great show tonight, Art.
	Always listening.
	Thanks for the call.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with John A. Nolan.
	Hello.
	Hey, Art, John.
	This is John in Atlanta.
	Okay.
	I want to echo the sentiment for the caller before the top of the hour.
	I'm not anti-government.
	I'm a pro-constitutional republic form of government, not the imperial federal government that we have right now.
	I'm sure I'll get in trouble for that.
	Call me old-fashioned or naive, but I agree with what Ben Franklin said when he said those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security.
	But I guess we deserve it because we've allowed our government to meddle in everyone's affairs and entangle ourselves in alliances and treaties and world organizations.
	In my opinion, most of this activity has done nothing but increase our risk.
	Is it negative to be an isolationist, to stay out of world affairs and shun alliances and foreign aid?
	Thomas Jefferson said, peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations entangling alliances with none.
	And George Washington warned us of this.
	Even as recently as Eisenhower, beware of, do you remember what to beware of?
	The military industrial complex.
	Right, there you are.
	$2,000 and you haven't used any lifelines.
	The military industrial complex.
	So, yeah, many presidents have had severe warnings for us about what they had is, you know, really they had everything, right?
	So, what's going on, what they are administering, it scares them or they wouldn't have said these things.
	Get this figure.
	We've spent $6 trillion on our military since World War II.
	Adjusted for inflation, that's $14 trillion.
	That's $50,000 for every man, woman, and child in this country right now.
	And we do not have a defense against some two-bit dictator that gets his hands on some nuclear weapon.
	Well now, just a moment there.
	There's where I'll stop you and I'll ask John.
	See, the thing is, actually we do have a defense against that.
	We have this intelligence community that on the one hand seems so intrusive, so anti-constitutional, so un-American, in every way you can think of, but on the other hand, they are defending us against exactly that kind of thing.
	Right, John?
	That's the objective.
	Absolutely.
	And the issue is That there are many dollars being spent right now on national and theater missile defense things.
	Yep.
	...that are designed to identify launch vehicles and to knock them out of the air.
	This administration has not been particularly enthusiastic about that, but right now... Even that said, there were two shots fired toward Kwajalein, right?
	That's exactly right.
	And one of them knocked down the missile.
	They did, exactly right.
	And that's FAD, the Theater High Altitude Air Defense System.
	And it's a...
	And they're getting there.
	Because it's essentially trying to hit a bullet with a bullet.
	But not a bullet, it's more like the shotgun approach.
	Yeah, to a certain extent.
	Many objects traveling at many thousands of miles per hour that are suddenly hurled at this incoming missile that spread out like a shotgun blast would spread out.
	I likened it the other day to a million little Ginzu knives.
	Indeed.
	But the other side of it is that while you've got an understanding of something that launches, I mean that's really the last time, that's the last line of defense, the very first line of defense, is the intelligence community's ability to penetrate
	somebody else's uh... delivery system their development system and delivery
	system in order to be able to identify early on
	remember back in the seventies when the iraqi uh...
	uh...
	uh... capital baghdad was bombed by the israelis
	Sure.
	And why did the Israelis bomb Iraq?
	Are you referring now to the nuclear facility?
	Exactly.
	They knew that the Iraqis were pretty close to the development of a nuclear weapon that would place the state of Israel at risk.
	Yes.
	And so, that did not happen to be something that got out of the newspaper.
	And it certainly wasn't anything that they said, well, we'll just wait until they launch one and then we'll try and catch it or knock it down.
	They said, we'll cut off the head of the beast now.
	And that's what they went after.
	That's what you generally have to have an intelligence system that tells you That such an event is likely to occur in order to meet the definition of the intelligence product.
	We've done some stuff like that.
	Provide the decision maker timely and actionable information.
	Yeah, we've done some stuff like that ourselves.
	Yeah, we have.
	I do believe there was an action or two at Osama Bin Laden, whether it was a proper or just a baby milk factory.
	I don't know, but we did.
	As a matter of fact, I joke with some people every once in a while that it must have been really a tough job to get those 47 tons of chemically treated sand in there before the inspectors came in.
	Around the baby factory.
	The baby food factory.
	I know.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with John Nolan.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Well, you're going to have to yell at us.
	I can barely hear you.
	Where are you?
	I'm in Texas.
	Texas.
	Well, talk like a Texan.
	Well, I'm not from Texas.
	Well, then try to talk like a Texan.
	Yeah, I had a question for your guest.
	All this monitoring of phones, email, it really reminds me of a book written in 1948.
	I'm sure you're familiar with it.
	By George Orwell.
	1984.
	Yes.
	You know, this really is not a good thing.
	You know, maybe it does some good.
	Well, probably at your doorstep.
	I mean, that's what you've got to come to terms with here, I guess.
	Stop at your doorstep and down your chimney and through your walls.
	Well, I guess the one way you can look at it is you can be happy that it's 16 years late.
	Oh, well, that's just great.
	Uh, what we're talking about, the 1984 and it's most, actually at a drastic level, was that it really was intrusive.
	It was in every room of every house and it was in every situation and Big Brother really did control and even influenced your thoughts.
	Obviously we don't have an administration these days that's Trying to influence the thoughts of people.
	1984 actually was a pretty good date, wasn't it?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I mean, we were doing this kind of stuff in 1984.
	Yes, we were indeed.
	Well, there you are.
	Caller?
	Yeah, it's just, you know, it just does not seem like a good thing and, you know, they can't control the thoughts and they're not in every room of your house yet.
	Well, they're trying a pretty good thing at the politically correct.
	I mean, you can't, there are a bunch of thoughts that you can't make expressed.
	Well, yeah, that is true.
	I'm not necessarily a fan of John Rocker's one way or the other, but he doesn't seem to have any ability to think his thoughts about the population of New York City and be a guy who's able to open his mouth, because it's not politically appropriate.
	And if that's not pretty close to, I mean, getting massive numbers of people, Wait a minute, wait a minute.
	Hold it, hold it, hold it, hold it.
	That's the thought control process.
	Okay, yeah, sure.
	But, you know, when you consider the Rocker thing, the retaliation was also political.
	In other words, he wasn't charged with any criminal thing.
	Absolutely not.
	Right?
	The retaliation was in the same arena in which it was issued.
	What he said was horrible.
	Right.
	And so they just came back at him uh... in the same arena is not like a call the dns at the
	moment i'm sure absolutely right what i'm suggesting to you however
	is that if it's going to be a thought control thing as your caller
	from texas is talking about
	then we're almost partly there if you really step back and think about it
	uh... from a pulp what is politically correct the kind of things that you are
	allowed to say publicly now
	uh... and that's not whether you're going to get in trouble with the law
	if you say the wrong thing at work these days
	uh... you have any number of potential uh... civil
	uh... actions that can be brought to you Not to mention good-bye job.
	Not to mention good-bye job.
	And if that's not thought control at a certain level, I don't know what is.
	Okay, caller.
	Do you feel better?
	No.
	No.
	Of course not.
	Thank you very much for the call.
	Well, to the Rockies, you're on the air with John A. Nolan.
	Hello.
	Yeah.
	Excuse me.
	Hello, Art.
	Hi.
	There's a show that was on about a month ago on the History Channel about the eyes from the sky looking down on us.
	Yes.
	I don't know if you saw that.
	I don't need to have seen it, Colin.
	No, I don't.
	I know what's up there.
	It's similar to what you guys are talking about.
	I know what's up there.
	What is your question?
	Well, my question is...
	Well, actually, it's a situation that I was recently being watched by some helicopters flying around.
	You were what?
	Being watched.
	By helicopters?
	Yeah.
	And why do you think helicopters were watching you?
	Just sort of playing along with you for a moment.
	Oh, yeah, I understand.
	Why do you think they were watching you?
	I don't know, because every time... Oh, come on, you must know.
	I don't know.
	Probably this is to you, I guess.
	I don't know.
	Yeah, right.
	Thanks.
	Blame it on me.
	You know that's not true.
	You know that if there's really helicopter... If they were devoting those kind of resources to really watching you, then you're a bad dude, or you're a hated dude, or something really awful.
	I mean, they wouldn't devote those kind of resources to you.
	Well, in actuality, I'm a disabled person, so... See, you're even more dangerous then.
	Yeah.
	Now, see, John, I kind of don't buy that.
	In other words, yeah, I can imagine that helicopters, stealth helicopters, in a cause of national security, might be called upon to go listen to somebody or something or whatever.
	Whatever they can do.
	Spy satellites used, whatever, all the assets they've got.
	But not for some disabled guy who hasn't said anything particularly wrong.
	What do you think?
	Well, my observation is that it would probably not be your caller, but maybe his next door neighbor who's an arch criminal.
	That's a very good point.
	How would he know whether they were actually after him or a neighbor?
	Exactly.
	Secondly, you know, there are lots of things.
	I mean, I live in Huntsville, Alabama, and we have, down in the southern part of the state, Fort Rucker, where they train helicopter pilots.
	Right.
	And then, up north of us, at Fort Campbell, Kentucky, is 101st Air Mobile, where they live in helicopters as well.
	And very often, you see flights of helicopters moving about, and you wonder whether or not it's just a troop movement, or an exercise, or something like that.
	But you don't think necessarily of them flying over your house.
	That's a hovering pattern.
	Would it be possible for a hovering helicopter to issue a laser that would hit your window and allow them to hear everything being said in your room, just hypothetically?
	Would that be possible?
	Yeah, because it's already established as a technology.
	Whether they use them out of helicopters Uh, there's a lot of, uh, there's a lot of, uh, shimmy and shake in a helicopter that might make it a little bit problematic.
	But I think I got that figured out, though.
	But the technology is there to do that, if somebody needed to do it.
	Uh-huh.
	Only if somebody needed to do it, of course, yes.
	I will be right back.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	You're listening to Arc Bell, somewhere in time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from March 8, 2000.
	Far, we've been traveling far.
	1, 2, 3, 4...
	Without a home.
	And not without us a star.
	Free.
	Only want to be free.
	Breathe hard and close.
	Hang on to a dream.
	Lonely days, lonely nights Where would I be without my woman?
	You're listening to Arc Bell, Somewhere in Time Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from March
	8, 2000 Now I want you all to understand that actually
	I understand intellectually the need for the kind of security that we're talking about tonight
	Drastic as it may be, I actually do understand the need for it
	The others are doing it.
	We've got to do it for our own national protection.
	I mean, that's something we have to do.
	But, We also, at least apparently, have enough freedom to be able to talk about what's really going on and tell you what the other side of the matrix looks like.
	You know, the one you're living in?
	And this is what it looks like.
	Lonely days, lonely nights.
	Where would I be without my woman?
	Lonely days, lonely nights.
	We'll be right back with John Nolan.
	2000 on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Just bear in mind as you're listening to what many perceive as terrible horrors
	that we're talking about right now.
	Thank you.
	That in Britain, for doing this program right now, well, I would never have gotten this far.
	I would have been arrested, well, I don't know, two and a half hours ago.
	And my guest, John Nolan, would have been arrested two and a half hours ago.
	You cannot talk about something like this there.
	So, there is a difference.
	Maybe after all is said and done, Not a really gigantic difference.
	When you get down to the minutiae of capability, there's not a lot of difference really, but that is a difference that remains.
	For the moment.
	Welcome back, John.
	Thank you, Art.
	Anything you want to... Yeah, there are a couple of points that I think really sort of need to be borne in mind.
	While we're justifiably concerned about the ability of the Echelon system to gather up all manner of conversations and etc.
	from the Ether, the flip side of it is that as technology advances, fiber optics are not susceptible to intercept from such systems.
	I know they're really worried about that.
	They're working on a solution.
	Yeah, and they're working on a solution.
	That's the issue.
	They don't have a solution set for that right now.
	But they will.
	That cuts down a lot of the... They will.
	Look, anything man can do, anything man can do, man can undo.
	That's exactly right.
	All of these sophisticated scrambling systems have been broken.
	Right.
	That's another piece of it, is which encryption techniques Are being used and to what extent is it worth?
	I mean, we're talking about literally billions of conversations occurring every day.
	Take an early version.
	How do you pick out the nuggets?
	I'll tell you one way.
	Let's set something up here.
	Okay.
	Let's say you want to email a friend and you want it to be secure.
	The urban legend is that if you use one of the early versions of PGB, right?
	Pretty good privacy.
	Pretty good privacy, right?
	That nobody is going to be able to read what you have sent.
	But the probable truth of the matter is that that's bull poop.
	And that if our agencies had the ability to decrypt PGP, we wouldn't know about it.
	They obviously wouldn't tell us.
	True.
	Because now we can sit here thinking that in safety we are encrypting what we're sending.
	Nobody can read it.
	I don't believe that for a second, John.
	Well, you know, I agree with you.
	You do?
	Yes, because there isn't an encryption protocol that is not susceptible to being Decrypted.
	Except for what, of course, are known throughout the trade as one-time pads.
	Yeah.
	And one-time pads means that the sender and the receiver are the only ones who know it and they're completely random.
	But anything with a key, even a changing key.
	That's right.
	Even with a changing key, you have the opportunity to break it.
	uh... and so what it means is you have to have a terrific lee powerful
	computer to be able to break something
	and then you have to save yourself well who is it who's sending it and what is it that they're
	sending and how much interest is there
	for us to do that if we know that this is a terrorist group
	well then we're going to do everything that we can uh... to uh... to to decrypt that
	if it is art bill and john dolan sending traffic back and forth
	and we're sending dirty jokes back and forth and we're encrypting those just because we'd like to give
	them a lot then they're not going to waste their resources i mean
	Bear in mind that not too long ago they shut down the system because it went into overload.
	Wait a minute here.
	If anything, you know, the key words that we were talking about that will get a conversation tripped, kicked out, and listened to, then obviously the use of a cipher is going to raise your profile.
	In two seconds flat.
	Sure it is.
	I mean, these are the realities that I don't think people really think all that much about.
	If you're sending something out in a cipher, man, that's going to be kicked out, right along with bomb and other words.
	Right.
	Alright, first time caller on the line, you're on the air with John Nolan.
	Yeah, Art, St.
	Louis calling Big 550.
	Yes, sir.
	KTRS?
	Right.
	A friend of mine told me when I was a kid, this was in the early 80s, he never mentioned the word echelon, but his dad worked at the annex of the Pentagon about it.
	Yep.
	And being kids, and being big UFO buffs, You know what was the secret about the government?
	We started messing with it.
	Oh?
	And I guess they determined, and it's not too hard to figure out what those words are.
	No, it isn't.
	No, and so we made hypothetical scenarios.
	We always covered ourselves that we wouldn't be in trouble about what we said, but what we said obviously triggered it and triggered it hard.
	And you could hear clicks and clicks and clicks.
	Now see, you know what?
	Let me tell you something.
	What you're saying right now is an urban legend.
	Well, Art, let me tell you this.
	Yeah, I'm sure you heard clicks, but know this.
	They don't need to do something as stupid as have a clicking sound.
	To monitor your conversation, my friend, you would never... you'd never even hear a little stray static.
	Well... You wouldn't... you wouldn't begin to know that you're being monitored.
	You may be right.
	Maybe that's... I am right!
	Okay, I agree.
	Maybe that's sophisticated today, but let me just finish this out, Art.
	After about an hour, and I'm sure your man there can confirm this, if you mess with it and they determine that you're just somebody goofballing off, they sent a noise through the phone that literally rattled my brain.
	I was deaf in that ear for an hour.
	Look, a telephone, first of all, is not capable of issuing enough dB to destroy your hearing.
	That's all there is to it.
	A telephone has a constricted A bandpass of audio that can come through it.
	And it could be real loud, and real annoying, but it would not destroy your hearing.
	Right, John?
	Uh, to my understanding, and I'm not a technical guy, but that's roughly my understanding of it.
	Yeah.
	So, now on the other hand, if you particularly went after them to annoy them, and continually said things, like you were gonna bomb some building, or you were gonna, whatever you were gonna do, you know, something awful, or you had a, You just purchased a brand new shiny backpack nuke, you know, from the Russians, or something.
	Now that's going to get you a visit, probably.
	But, you know, this thing of clicks on the telephone, that's silly.
	You're never going to hear a click because you're being monitored, would you agree, John?
	Well, your caller is talking about the early part of the 80s, and There were still some mechanisms that were not as discreet as they are today.
	Still in use at that time, but mostly those were local law enforcement and people like that who were using relatively unsophisticated and direct line taps.
	Let me put it to you this way.
	In the 80s, if I had wanted to tap somebody's line and with nary a click, nary a decrease in the apparent volume or any other giveaway, I could have done it.
	I could have done it.
	Oh, sure, sure.
	What I'm talking about are the guys who run down to their local Spies R Us.
	And buy something for $19.95.
	Oh, there you'll get clicks.
	And there you'll get all kinds of interference.
	You'll get all kinds of demodulation.
	Sure.
	You'll get all kinds of problems.
	Sure.
	And recognizable.
	Sure.
	Drifts in and out.
	Absolutely.
	But if the big guys are trying to listen to you... If it was the big guys, you're not going to know it.
	That's right.
	All right.
	You have a wild card line.
	You're on the air with John A. Nolan.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Good evening, Art.
	It's William from Portland.
	Yes, sir.
	Hi, John.
	Hi, William.
	Great show tonight.
	Thank you.
	I have two questions, if I may, please.
	First, I was listening to the lady that was on from the NSA last week, Art.
	Yes, sir.
	And I linked to the site that she had, I believe it was in Finland, and there was a link concerning a patent for a holographic memory storage device that the NSA had patented.
	And I was wondering, I've heard a couple of times when the government has procured sensitive or high-tech devices and kept them for national security.
	Are these things also available to be used within the public as well, or are they kept just for the government?
	Actually, there are a number of different variations on the basic theme.
	The typical variation on the theme is that a place like Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory's scientists may develop a patentable process.
	And then what they will do is license that process to various commercial entities.
	Who will then have the opportunity to use it either fully or in part.
	And even in some cases, they'll be so concerned about the national security implications of it that they will license only portions of a patent to various competing companies, for example, in order that nobody is able to achieve the fullest technical capability.
	Does that make sense to you?
	Yes, it does.
	It sort of flows it out of the public's hands.
	So it gets out into the public's hands, but it doesn't have the same degree of, say for example, lethality that it might otherwise have.
	I see.
	And my last question, please.
	I was wondering, considering that most of these agencies are under black budgets and Congress really doesn't know what they're up to, Well, actually, Congress does know what they're up to.
	I mean, do they have oversight committees that really keep up to their day-to-day activities?
	Let's phrase it another way.
	John, are you convinced the oversight committees know everything that's going on?
	No, I'm not convinced of that because of what we talked about earlier.
	Are there opportunities for people to be rogues about things?
	Are there opportunities for people in this current administration to be rogues about certain things?
	Yeah.
	Is there a way that somebody... I mean, think about this.
	We're talking about a community of people who live behind a veil in the first place, and the whole mental gymnastic activity is one of secrecy and being able to protect your secrets.
	So if you ever wanted to have a group of people who are capable of doing it, it would certainly be the intelligence community.
	They've got some equally smart folks on the oversight committees.
	Some of the greatest challenges, I think, are between those two groups of folks.
	You really don't want to screw the pooch by getting caught doing something like that.
	I think it's every bureaucrat's nightmare to be one of the intelligence bureaucrats who steps over the line, does the wrong thing, and has an oversight committee Catch you in the act, because then you're like John Poindexter standing up there raising your hand in front of the Congressional Committee, which is not good for your morale.
	And so... But the Poindexter example is certainly not necessarily preventing all of that going on right now.
	Oh, no.
	No, absolutely not.
	I would be the first to suggest that when just about anything to include the The towels in the Lincoln bedroom are for sale.
	Courtesy of this administration, you can buy anything in this world for money.
	Well, so then the Poindexter example stands more as an example of why it's bad to be caught.
	Yeah, exactly.
	And so that's the major disincentive, is the getting caught part.
	You and I talked about something on the air, off the air briefly, before we went on.
	Because I was talking about the weather.
	I mean, they're having, you know, like, tornadoes in Wisconsin.
	We are having weather that is outrageously wrong.
	80s along the East Coast in winter.
	I mean, just a full-blown tornado season all winter long in the American South.
	It's been un-blanking believable.
	You had a comment or two about that.
	Yeah, and frankly I only know on the periphery, I don't even know that I know.
	I know that I've been told by people who claim to have knowledge of some advanced climatological research and applications of some of the research done by By various countries in order to wreak havoc with another country's crops, for example, in a particular year.
	Do you remember, I know you do because we talked about it, the Russians actually publicly offered Can they do it?
	Yeah, I think so.
	the uh... the terrible fires in southeast asia that were raging yes
	with by creating a cyclone yesterday claimed they could create a cycle they said they
	would do it once as a demonstration for free
	if that country wanted it and then after that they would charge for the service
	so can they do it the i think so
	but is this part of the worldwide uh... result of something that has gotten out of hand
	Uh, perhaps.
	Is it because, uh, somebody has mastered the technology?
	That is something well beyond my, uh, well beyond my pay grade.
	I have no idea.
	But imaginable.
	But imaginable.
	Yes.
	Absolutely.
	All right.
	Uh, East of the Rockies, you're on the air with John A. Nolan.
	Hi.
	Uh, yeah.
	I'm calling from Indiana, and I just wondered whether John Nolan's heard of Richard Marcinko?
	Yes.
	Yes, the answer is yes.
	Has Richard Marcinko used any of your data for his counter-terrorism missions?
	I don't think that Marcinko needs to take anything from me.
	He has a wellspring of certain experiences and a lot of imagination and quite a few contacts throughout the community who will continue to feed him things.
	He doesn't need to rely on anything from me.
	Okay, and I think Marcinko would make a fantastic guest for Art Bell.
	All right.
	Bye.
	All right, thank you.
	Take care.
	Well, to the Rockies, you're on the air with John A. Nolan.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	I'd say confidentiality is a good subject, and it's exactly how psychology is starting to control our thoughts, is what I'm thinking.
	What confidentiality?
	All right, we're going to talk about the psychology of methodology suggesting psychology, which is all confidential.
	Well, I don't know what you're talking about.
	You don't?
	No.
	Well, you better start checking up on it because it's in your school system and in your children.
	Well, what exactly are you talking about?
	Well, it's the same type of psychology that Adolf Hitler used in his rise to power.
	The more and more you check it out, the more you'll find out about it.
	And it's a psychological warfare type of thing.
	And I do think that the CIA is partly behind it.
	And it's being used on children in schools.
	And that's another method that Hitler used to brainwash the children.
	And you have to remember that it was the Nazis that was brought over here by the CIA and helped them set up their organization.
	In other words, you've got... Yeah, but we didn't bring the Third Reich over here.
	I'm not.
	scientists over here are not with our space program and i have a scientist
	and so you know you believe that with the third right came along with them
	and all its tactics you bet as the i i'm not done i guess i haven't entered
	that uh...
	level of cynicism just quite yet uh... john well actually here in hudson alabama's were many of those
	people who came over under the paperclip operation right which is the one that
	uh... the still referring to the fact that the close of the war bringing
	over a rocket specialist
	uh... with uh... there are a problem a bunch of other people
	And Huntsville, Alabama, is where I live, and they call it a rocket city because that's where they manage the space shuttle programs.
	And the Russians got a lot more of them than we did.
	Oh, yeah, absolutely.
	They got a great deal more of them.
	And with that technical competency, we were able to do a whole lot of things that we might not have otherwise been able to do as rapidly as we were.
	But the simple fact of the matter is that those were, as you quite accurately pointed out, these are scientists who are rocket scientists, not psychologists.
	As a matter of fact, the nature of most psychological Sure.
	John, it has been an absolute pleasure having you on the air.
	We're going to have you back again soon.
	I hope to.
	What you're saying is just scary as hell, and absolutely true, and I hope everybody goes out and buys your book one more time.
	Your book's name is?
	Confidential.
	Confidential.
	Top business secrets and protect your own.
	And even though you won't get a real cheap copy on Amazon.com, you will get a slightly cheaper copy on Amazon.com.
	First time I've ever seen this happen.
	They must be afraid of this book.
	John, thank you.
	Thank you.
	Have a good night.
	Good night, my friend.
	Well, there was a reality check for you.
	Three hours of reality check for you.

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