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Feb. 10, 2000 - Art Bell

02:42:11

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Is Religion a Biological Impulse - Matthew Apler

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58:01

colm kelleher

20:32

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unidentified		Welcome to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
unidentified		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from February 10th, 2000.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening and or good morning wherever you may be across this great land of ours.
		Starting in the west, commercially from the Tahitian and Hawaiian Islands, exotic thoughts come to mind eastward to the Caribbean and the U.S. Virgin Islands, equally exotic.
		South into many exotic parts of South America.
		North all the way to the frigid but thawing Pole.
		And worldwide on the internet, this is posted post AM and I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is going to be an interesting night.
		In a moment, we'll have Column Culler here.
		He is actually the deputy administrator for the National Institute for Discovery Science in Las Vegas, sponsored by a guy with a whole lot of money, Bob Bigelow.
		And this group, complimentary to what Peter Davenport does, Peter, of course, on yesterday, you know, they've got the resources, and if something big happens in ufology or the world of the paranormal, they can put PhDs on airplanes and they can be on the spot.
		And in fact, thanks to many of you out there and the tips, that's exactly what they have done.
		So in a moment, we're going to get an update on what NIDS has done, is doing, and will do.
		Colin Colorher coming up shortly.
		Sometimes you have to be careful what you wish for.
		And I was wishing yesterday for a song called Black Velvet, which has been haunting me, and somebody who emailed me as well.
		And so I asked on the air, all of you, to please help me out.
		Well, my email account at mindspring.com almost caused a denial of service attack on MindSpring because so many people answered the question.
		Oh my God, I got a lot of email.
		Thank you all.
		I've got the song.
		We'll get to it later this morning.
		Right now, here is the Deputy Administrator for the Institute, National Institute for Discovery Science in Las Vegas, Nevada, the man who runs all the day-to-day operations at NIDS.
		That's what it is called for short, NIDS.
		Here is Colum Cullaher.
		Welcome back, Column.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Good evening, Art.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Good to be back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Great to have you on.
		Well, gee, where to begin?
		Since we last talked, of course, there was this incredible sighting in Illinois, and I had the officers on the air and very dramatic.
		And I guess you all got involved in that and sent some people out to Illinois?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that was a very interesting case.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		We were really impressed with the way the guys got on your show, and they were very articulate and exact in their descriptions of this very large crowd.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pretty gutsy stuff, actually, for a cop.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I thought it was, too, because naturally being cops, they were probably subject to a lot of ridicule.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In fact, they have been.
		In fact, now SciComp is after them today.
		There you go.
		So, anyway, you sent some people out.
		Tell us what happened.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we sent two people out there for several days and interviewed a bunch of eyewitnesses.
		And we think we've been able to construct a flight path for this very large, low-flying black triangle that came in off Lake Michigan, just north of Chicago, traveling in a southwesterly direction.
		It was first picked up about 10 p.m. on the night of the 4th.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you say picked up, you mean by an eyewitness?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Picked up by an eyewitness just north of Chicago, just on the border of Lake Michigan.
		And it was traveling in a southwesterly direction, heading southwest.
		The next eyewitness that has it was just north of Highland, Illinois, which is a couple of hundred miles southwest.
		But it was picked up northeast of Highland, traveling at exactly the same altitude in the same direction at about 4 a.m.
		So it was traveling very, very slowly.
		Now, this thing was festooned with bright and even blinding lights, traveling at approximately 1,000 feet.
		It was then picked up by the first police officer in Lebanon, again traveling southwest, coming from the northeast.
		The dispatch is very, very interesting because essentially we have, not only do we have four different police officers as eyewitnesses, but we have police officers who are waiting to see something.
		In other words, they were in observe mode.
		They didn't walk into something and have a total surprise.
		So because of that, we think it's a high-quality eyewitness event.
		So the thing was traveling in a southwesterly direction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's see.
		The eyewitnesses obviously agree on the configuration of it and the direction of it.
		But what did the eyewitnesses say about the size of it?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, there is some discrepancy between the eyewitnesses about the size, but if you take the broad spectrum or the consensus, the size was somewhere around 200 to 300 feet long.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's big.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Triangular, possibly just arrowhead shape.
		We think it may have made a slight detour to the northwest, very briefly, around Shiloh.
		But then it regained its southwesterly direction to Milstat, Illinois.
		And just after Milstatt, it seems to have gained altitude to about 10,000 feet.
		And all of these are approximate.
		Sure.
		Where the fourth police officer picked it up through binoculars at about 10,000 feet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did any witnesses report sound?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Two of them reported a very barely audible hum.
		One of the police officers actually shut off his lights, shut off his vehicle engine, and shut everything down so that he could actually get out of his vehicle and listen to it.
		And he said that there was no sound and that the closest the object came to him was about 1,000 feet in his estimation.
		Now, one of the interesting things about it was the ability apparently to accelerate to extremely high speeds, which it did from Lebanon to about Shiloh.
		And apparently it covered that gap in a very, very short time.
		We're talking seconds, several miles in a few seconds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I'm sure you've done some calculations, or somebody did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How fast would it have been going?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		That's in the thousands.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Thousands per hour.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So from just loafing along at not a speed that aerodynamically would keep anything in the air to thousands of miles an hour in seconds.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		And there was no discernible increase or decrease in the lights.
		No afterburn, no sound, nothing.
		It just, according to the police officer, it appeared to be right beside him at one stage, and then the next time, next seconds, as he was talking on the walkie-talkie, it was right across the sky.
		So he was just in mid-conversation when they picked it up at the next side.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, this is interesting because there's a kind of a mythology growing on the internet and everywhere about these triangular objects.
		I had my beautiful sighting, my almost third-degree close encounter with mine.
		So I know they're up there.
		I have no question in my mind.
		I saw it.
		It was there.
		I could have thrown a rock at the damn thing.
		We've got them in our skies.
		People are saying, well, it's a blimp.
		You know, it's some sort of military blimp.
		But a blimp would not accelerate from floating speed to thousands of miles per hour instantly.
		Not any blimp I know of, anyway.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, we do have to remember these figures are approximate.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		A couple of several miles in a few seconds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Even if you took it by half.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, either way, it's very, very fast.
		The other thing that seems to be puzzling if we're talking about a secret stealth black military program that is flying at Blimp is that the craft was literally festooned with blinding lights.
		According to at least two of the police officers, the lights were extremely bright.
		It was traveling at about 1,000 feet, so that's very, very low.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Our military wouldn't do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, if it's a stealth aircraft and you're flying over populated areas of the U.S., albeit some of them sparsely, you wouldn't put blinding lights on the craft, would you?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, we have a problem with that.
		There really doesn't seem to be any logic if you're trying to keep a program secret to have that sort of thing.
		And that has been a consistent feature of these sightings.
		We have this flight pass that this object was in the air for, we think, about nine hours on that night.
		And the lights were, as I said, blazing.
		That does seem to be inconsistent with some secret program.
		Now, the interesting thing about this was when the media got a hold of it, we think it was an unusually objective series of reportings that happened.
		We had a lot of reports in the local St. Louis, Missouri area on Fox TV.
		It showed reports on three consecutive nights.
		All those reports were just matter-of-fact reporting it like any other news item.
		Then the L.A. Times did a story on it, which was objective.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand that even the Chicago Sun-Times did one.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		And the St. Louis Post Dispatch.
		All of these media stories were objective, and I think a lot of the reason for that was the fact that these police officers were the eyewitnesses.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		However, two things have occurred.
		Those police officers have taken a lot of ribbing from their colleagues.
		Absolutely.
		Number one.
		Number two, the cops at PsyCop have taken off after them, which is also not a surprise.
		PsychOp being the, I don't know what they are.
		They're an organization of debunkers.
		That's what I say.
		And so they've taken off after the officers as well.
		Saying I think their first, according to Davenport, their first offering was that it was a delusional episode.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, we think that the delusional episode is probably not tenable at all because of the quality of the eyewitnesses.
		What really became apparent when we went through the transcripts and we listened to the officers talking was that these guys were waiting for something to show up.
		It was like they were sitting there in observer mode.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		It's not like they were walked into something that was completely shocking and unexpected.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		So they were the best possible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have an officer with his lights off waiting for this craft.
unidentified		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And here it comes.
		I don't know.
		So let's flash forward.
		Now, Peter Gerston is in court down in California, and he did an FOIA request asking the government to come back and give any information it had on triangular craft.
		And the government came back, and first the box, you could actually see was checked.
		Yes, we have information.
		Then it was crossed out, and no was put there.
		And so Peter Gerston is in court in California arguing a case saying our government is being non-responsive, exhibiting bad faith.
		They've got.
		Look, in my opinion, and Aiden, you can echo in if you want, this thing is absolutely in our skies.
		I've seen it.
		Millions have seen it.
		Policemen, airline pilots have seen it.
		It's in our skies.
		So either it's our own government's craft or it's a craft from elsewhere and our government knows about it.
		Either way, they're lying through their teeth.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, we think from the numbers of calls that we've got in the last couple of weeks regarding this sighting, there's been a lot of activity in that area, even before the night of January 5th and subsequent to the night of January 5th.
		Now, you mentioned the court case, but one of the recent calls that we got was from a lady who is very, very articulate in how she described this thing, and she said that it was literally just over the treetops.
		She put it at about 200 to 300 feet long, and it was literally just over the treetops.
		She actually started running because she thought it was going to crash.
		It was that low.
		And this thing did a perfect swivel right over her head.
		In other words, it did a flat bank.
		It didn't bank like a 747 does by going on its side.
		It didn't seem to need any airlift whatsoever.
		It seemed to make the turn and then head over Lake Michigan.
		It was, according to her, an extraordinary maneuver without any sound whatsoever.
		But this thing was so low, she said that there were radio towers, smokestacks, you know, chimneys in the area that were about 100 feet tall.
		She said this thing was a hazard, a safety hazard, and it was flying so low the slightest mistake could have caused it to crash.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then NIDS so far in this investigation has concluded have you concluded anything?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, we have concluded, number one, that those officers did see an object.
		We have not fully ruled out a military black program because we're unable to.
		But we think that the performance of this object seems to mitigate against a military program.
		But we're leaving that door open.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would it be your view, Colum, that I understand that we have secret programs?
		We all live near Area 51 here, where they do a lot of the secret stuff.
		So I understand that.
		I mean, we have reasons to have ongoing black budget programs, I'm sure.
		I'm comfortable with that.
		If the government would come back and say, yes, we understand the sightings of these objects, but it's a matter of national security, that might be all right.
		But they're saying, oh, no, we have never seen or do we know anything about or have any object of this sort in our arsenal.
		Period.
		End of story.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, it it there does seem to be an inconsistency there with the way this the numbers of reports that we've got for the last several weeks seems to mitigate against a military program in that the the craft is taking these enormous risks in crashing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean if they do have it, they're flying it like idiots.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		And they're also making absolutely no attempt to hide it.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		It's a very interesting conundrum.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what you all are in business for at NIDS.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Interesting conundrum.
unidentified		Yes, and we should mention, hold on, we will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're at the bottom of the hour.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll be right back.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from February 10, 2000.
		The Lord that we just found and the reasoning of his latest spring.
		Thank you.
		He talked and talked, and I heard him say that she had all this fucking pair, the prettiest green stars anywhere.
		and reasoning of his latest fame.
		Though I smiled the tears inside were burning I wished him luck and been satisfied.
		He was gone but still his words kept returning What else was there for me to do to cry?
		Would you believe that yesterday go on sword to me?
		She smiled.
		And breathe the man of the latest way.
		No one smiled.
		I wish to walk in the city goodbye.
		Nothing but a heart is never a day.
		It's been a heart and a skin that follows away.
		It's been a day of the night.
		But nothing is awake.
		I got a lot of those hearties I got a lot of those Kees up, hearties Kees up, all the way Nothing but a
		heartache, everything Nothing but a heartache, everything Nothing but a heartache, tears up, all the way I got a lot of tears over here It's just too slam, yeah He's got me all, why should I get him?
		I got a lot of those hearties I got a lot of those tears over here You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time, tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from February 10th, 2000.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ah, good morning, everybody.
		Column Cullaher is here from NIDS, and they went and investigated what happened in Illinois.
		Began over the Great Lakes.
		This incredible threat, the one I saw, the one my wife saw, the one so many of you have seen out there, the one that Peter Gerston is fighting to get a line on from our government right now.
		But undeniably, you've got to consider what Colum has just said, and that is, if it's our government's plane, I think it was actually me.
		He put it politely, I said they're flying it like idiots if it's a black program.
		And you've got to think that one over a little bit, because if they had something like that, they wouldn't fly it over populated areas.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, speaking of alternatives, if this craft is not ours, there really is only one alternative, isn't there?
		Get a paper and a pencil out because we are going to tell you how to contact NIDS if you need them.
		This phone number should be by your telephone the way 911 is.
		So that if you do see something, you can get hold of NIDS right away and they can dispatch people right away.
		So get that paper and pencil and we'll get you the hotline number.
		In the meantime, back to Colin Conoher.
		Column, welcome back.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		So there we are with what went on in Illinois.
		What else has NIDS been doing?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, I just wanted to finish that the Illinois thing also happened on two subsequent nights.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		The original one with the four police officers was on the morning of the 5th.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, on the night of the 6th, we have four separate eyewitnesses who talked about very large, low-flying, extremely brightly lit craft on the night of the 6th and early morning of the 7th.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Then we've got another four who talked about exactly the same thing on the night of the 7th and into the early morning of the 8th.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, see, now that's dumb and dumber because, again, if it was our government, assuming they were dumb enough to fly at once in front of witnesses, then you get the mainstream press running stories on it because cops saw it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You certainly wouldn't come back in successive days and do it again.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's the intriguing thing.
		And these eyewitnesses, we've tracked a few of them and their high credibility.
		People who work at NASDAQ and Stock Exchange, that kind of thing.
		And by and large, a lot of them are saying exactly the same thing.
		This thing was moving just over the treetops.
		And we verified that they were talking about the night of the 7th and the 6th rather than the 5th, which is the same night that the police officers saw it.
		So we think we have a very similar looking craft in roughly the same area within a 50-mile radius of the same area traveling on three subsequent nights.
		And that is fairly consistent in terms of multiple eyewitnesses.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This seems pretty convincing to me.
		And it sure does point away from the military.
		And the alternative is, well.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		The alternative is definitely pretty interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's either got to be, I've gone over this a million times, either somebody or somebody is from elsewhere or else when or some other dimension.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Any one of the above would be really interesting.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, we had a really, going from the very, very large to the very, very small, we had another interesting case that we came up with recently, and it was in Utah, in that same area where the infamous ranch is.
		But this was not actually on the ranch, it was in the same area.
		Because the ranch is located in an area that has probably, for the last 50 years, has had literally hundreds and possibly thousands of different sightings.
		But this one happened in the morning in November, 11 a.m. in the morning, when the rancher was just beside a water trough.
		He was just filling it with his hose when he noticed something brightly lit in the sky.
		It was moving pretty quickly down towards where he was sitting right on the auto.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Since we have not identified where this is, Colin, how far from the ranch?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		This would be within a mile or two.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A mile or two.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well then it's reasonable to conclude that the anomalous occurrences at the ranch would not necessarily stop at this specific ranch's property line.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's very reasonable to conclude that, especially because there's a very well-documented history going actually right back to the 1940s of a lot of phenomena in that area within a 30-mile radius of that particular property.
		So the general area in northern eastern Utah has been host to very intense phenomena.
		So this event was the rancher spotted something very bright in the sky.
		It came down to within 50 feet of his head.
		It was about six inches long, four inches wide, and about one inch high.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yikes.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		It was extremely reflective.
		it was shaped almost exactly according to the rancher, like a sardine can.
		And it hovered about 50 feet from his head initially.
		He was looking at it as he sat there on the water trough.
		It then began to move in front of him back and forth, slowly back and forth.
		He had a couple of dogs and a couple of horses and some cattle in his vicinity, and he noticed that the dogs were holding this thing right in their eyes.
		In other words, that they were transfixed by it.
		The other animals were very restless, very nervous.
		The cattle and the horses, especially were very nervous.
		But the object continued slowly going back and forth, about 30 to 40 feet, and then it would turn and go back the same way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Holy smokes.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		The rancher decided to contact his wife so that he could get another opinion.
		So he stood up to go into the house to yell at her.
		Instantly, the thing shot right up into the air, almost quicker than his eye could follow it.
		It was just, it went vertically right up above him.
		It reacted to his movement almost instantaneously, and it was gone within less than a second.
		It had moved out of his view.
		Now, the reason I'm talking about this is because one of the people at the SETI, in the SETI group, a professor called Alan Tuff, has proposed that if there was ever a civilization that was monitoring us, they would use what he would call small smart probes.
		And this object, in our opinion, It acted exactly like something that seemed to be scanning the rancher or scanning the area around the rancher, and it reacted instantly to his movement.
		So it seemed to be either remote-controlled or intelligently guided.
		And one of the things that we would be interested in if any of your listeners have come across this kind of very small object that is obviously intelligently guided.
		We've had a lot of experience with our investigators with interacting with balls of light of different colors.
		There's white balls of light and blue and red and orange, but we have not had too much experience with these kinds of very, very small compact objects.
		Now, this sardine can-like thing did not have any protuberances.
		It didn't have anything obvious sticking out from it.
		It made no noise whatsoever, and it was as reflective as aluminum foil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, wow.
		This is not exactly the first report I've heard of small objects of this sort, but it's one of the first.
		I haven't heard a lot of this.
		Usually it's, you know, saucers or triangles, but this is fairly new to even me, and I've heard a lot.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Well, the animals definitely reacted to it.
		It made them extremely nervous.
		And as I mentioned, this is an area that is host to multiple different types of craft.
		But this is the first time we've heard of something that's this small.
		And as you mentioned, the usual types of craft we're talking about are either disc-shaped objects, dome shapes, or even cigar shapes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What we would describe as a craft of some sort.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Has NIDS done any hard thinking, and I'm sure they have, about why the ranch, why that specific area, or for that matter, why any specific area, for an abundance of this kind of phenomena?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the things we've, we focused our first two or three years of our existence on an area in Utah and an area in New Mexico that we knew had been host to a lot of activity.
		And what those areas and other areas have in common is that they're way off the beaten track.
		They're very isolated communities.
		They're not people who are really interested in going forth into the media.
		They're not interested in publicity.
		And by and large, they're completely away from the cities and away from the main highways.
		So that may be a reason.
		It may be a lack of interest in publicity where multiple generations are experiencing these interactions with UFOs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is such a mystery.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Over 50 years, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Such a complete mystery.
		It just leaves one boggled as you think about it because you really run through the possibilities and it just doesn't sound like our military.
		Even though we know the military is at Area 51, we know there was a story indicating they moved, in fact, into Utah somewhere.
		And so this part of the country has acted that way as well.
		It's just, how do you tear all this apart and ever get to the bottom of it?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, we've got pretty reliable testimony, as I mentioned, going back to the 1940s and 50s.
		And the kinds of performances we're talking about that go back that far would probably be inconsistent with military technology.
		There is definitely, you can make a strong argument in the late 1990s that the military would have very advanced technology, but the 1950s and the 1940s and that these kinds of performances of hovering and these massive G-forces that would kill a human being are probably not viable in the 1940s and 50s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Callum, as you know, Dr. Stephen Greer has an organization that is trying to make contact with whatever it is that we're talking about here.
		Has NIDS done anything like that or considered a project of that sort in actually trying to make initiate a contact?
		I know we talked about the mother and the child a little bit and the fact they left the ranch for their safety.
		But other than that, have you given any thought to an attempt to initiate contact?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the things that we've noticed on the ranch is that there's been a preponderance of events that are completely irreproducible.
		In other words, they happen only once.
		And that could be construed as a form of entrainment or even communication.
		So we have been grappling with the brainstorming essentially on the interpretation of a lot of these things.
		And one of the interpretations is if there's a group of people in observer mode and they're kept completely on their toes and they're always exposed to something new, that does constitute a form of entrainment or communication.
		Yes.
		But in terms of formal communication that you've just talked about with CSATI, no, we haven't.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This calls for speculation on your part, Colin, but I'd really like to know, since you're so in the middle of this and a lot of Americans want to know too, are we headed toward, in your opinion, in the relatively near future, some sort of disclosure, some sort of announcement, or perhaps revelation or landing or event that will suddenly be apparent to all?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, we are definitely seeing an escalation in the reports that we're getting.
		Certainly since this 24-hour hotline started, we're getting a real escalation in the number of reports.
		And it has to be beyond random, a random event, a series of random events.
		So I can only speculate that if these intensify and intensify, there's going to be a critical mass of people who have had direct experience with these objects.
		So it seems to me that it's almost like these objects are interacting with people at the individual level.
		Most of the events that are being reported to us are happening outside population centers rather than in the big cities where critical masses would be reached more quickly.
		So therefore, if there is some kind of a contact occurring, it seems to be at the individual level.
		But maybe, from a long-term perspective, it's a critical mass of individuals rather than a group in a city, so to speak, that are necessary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if people out there want to help out, and increasingly now with the professionals coming forth, like the pilots in Texas and the police officers in Illinois and so many others, then certainly the average person, I think, could be ready to step forward and help us.
		NIDS has a 24-hour hotline.
		You all have the resources to send qualified people into the field to do serious investigations.
		Put it there like your 911 number and just let it sit there until you need it because these are the people who can get the job done.
		They've got the resources, they've got the talent, the scientific credentials, all of it.
		And will it cost you anything?
		No.
		Just a phone call.
		And having said that, where is NIDS headed?
		Same direction?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		We're trying to get as many different reports as possible and try to investigate the numbers that survived the initial telephone questionnaires.
		And there's quite a few of the reports that we get that don't survive those initial reports.
		Sure.
		But the bigger the database that we have and the more experience that we have from the calls that we get, the better job we can do.
		And we think that we're heading in the direction, hopefully, of being able to at least scientifically analyze what we're getting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You also interviewed the pilots, I believe, in Texas, didn't you?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		The pilots of what now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In Texas.
		The pilots who saw the triangle in Texas.
		You know, the big 747 drivers.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		We didn't actually interview those.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We didn't interview them.
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that was another really very important case.
		I mean, trained observers who were just absolutely blown away.
		And I hear phones going like crazy in the background.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's the 24-hour hotline going.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, going like crazy.
		All right, Column, we will have you back on a regular basis to let us know what's going on.
		Those people that do report to you and become part of a big investigation, do they get special treatment in terms of when you found something out, going back to them and letting them know what you found?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, what we do is we get a report together.
		We publish, if we can stand behind it, we publish it on our website, but we always send one to the eyewitnesses because we do keep their names confidential.
		And we send them a complete report of what we do, including all of the lab analysis, if it's actually done.
		No cost to any of the eyewitnesses.
		We pick up all of the costs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You can't beat that.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Founded by Robert Bigelow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're out of time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do me a favor and say hi to Bob for me.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		I will indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Column.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much, Art.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		It's always been a pleasure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care, my friend, and good luck with the phones.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Okay, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See you later.
		We're on the track, folks.
		And it's people like Column who are getting us there.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from February 10, 2000.
		This is a key, a kind of a foe, a foe.
		I'll give you all that I want.
		Got some things in your life.
		All in the soul.
		Baby, come on.
		Let me shake me any way you want me.
		Now that you love me, it's all right.
		Let me shake me any way you want me.
		Let me shake me any way you want me.
		Middle of the dry fell.
		In a rider on a licker up high.
		Mama's dancing, baby on her shoulder.
		Wanted something sky.
		I just never knew how to move everything.
		Always wanting more.
		Being longing for Black Bell, but I needed more mine.
		Black Bell, but we're like a slow summer town.
		A new radio that'll bring us to me.
		Black velvet, it should be I remember when music was like a heat wave.
		White lightning bound and driving wild.
		Mama's baby in the heart of the school girl.
		Loving tender, even flying in my eyes.
		We'll want any more.
		Eating wanting more.
		Black Bell, that is all it's fine.
		Black bell, black boy.
		Come on, God.
		New religion that'll bring us to your knees Black velvet, if you see Black velvet, if you see
		Every word, every song that he sang for you In a flash of your heaven so soon What could you do?
		The End Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight's program originally aired February 10th, 2000.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As well, get in your soul.
		I want to thank everybody who sent it to me.
		I about a thousand emails on this one, maybe more.
unidentified		You've got to be careful what you ask for.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I beg you to thank you all very much, all of you who helped me out with this one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was a tough one to find.
unidentified		Can you really just help me out to me?
		Black silver, if you please.
		Ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's building it up, isn't it?
		Anyway, there you are.
		And again, I want to thank everybody out there who helped me find that.
		And you were literally in the thousands.
		It's still coming in.
		Please stop sending me email on that.
		And thank you all again.
		I said earlier that, you know, there's this big thing going on with denial of service, and they're attacking all these e-commerce sites and so forth.
		Well, Mindspring almost had a denial of service trying to handle all of my email messages on this one song.
		But I wanted it.
		It's just that you've got to be careful what you wish for.
		Coming up in a moment is Matthew Alper, who was born and raised in New York City.
		Educated at Bassar, Stony Brook University, a North London Polytechnic in England.
		pretty good background where he finished with a degree in philosophy since that time he's worked on everything from a photographer's assistant fifth grade in high school history teacher in the projects of Brooklyn a He was a truck smuggler in Africa.
		Where's the background for that one?
		A personal bodyguard in the Philippines and a screenwriter in Germany all the while working on his magnum opus, it's called the God Part of the Brain.
		A scientific interpretation of human spirituality and God.
		And I'll tell you something.
		I've interviewed Matthew a number of times now, and I cannot shake him.
		And so that must mean that I really think there's something to what he's saying.
		And you're going to hear what he's saying in a few moments.
		We're going to get to Matthew.
		I've got a couple of things I've got to get done first, including the bills.
		Let's pay the bills and then do a couple of things.
		and we'll get to Matthew Alper, and I think you'll see what I know.
unidentified		Oh!
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, that's worth a little comment all by itself.
		That was a commercial for Jacobs Electronics and their ignition system, which is a good one.
		But have you noticed the price of gas lately?
		Now, we live out here in the middle of the desert.
		I'll grant you that.
		But know this.
		As close as down the street from me and around town, the price for premium gasoline is about a buck 76.9.
		$1.76.9.
		Now, what in the hell is going on that would have the gas prices that high around here, I'd like to know.
		It's not even summertime when we all know they artificially jack up the price of gas.
		Most of it comes from the Middle East, as you well know, and as far as I know, other than Iraq, which is smuggling gas out, oil, you know, the gas lines are open.
		So why is our gasoline costing so much?
		Maybe we should take a page from the book of the Saudis, and every time we find some gasoline executive who's hiked it up just for the fun of it, or, you know, whatever reasons, why we chop off his arm.
		And after a few arms, why, you'd probably see the price of gas coming right down.
		Of course, maybe I'm wrong.
		But I'm pretty angry about it.
		There's no reason for the price to be up that high.
		The government is requiring airlines, as they should, to inspect the tails of all MD series jetliners, all of them, and that's a lot, about 1,100 across the U.S., the whole series.
		MD-80s, 90s, DC-9s, Boeing 717s.
		It looks like they're suspecting this, I don't know what you call it, screw.
		The thing that would take the horizontal stabilizer up and down.
		It's a screwjack.
		And it looks like they're suspecting that may well be the problem.
		And of course, it may well be.
		There were two Alaska Airlines planes that, to their credit, Alaska Airlines, as soon as they saw a problem, they called the FAA and they said quarantine planes right away.
		And then they ordered a nationwide inspection of all of them, good.
		So they may be onto it, and that's good if you're thinking of flying somewhere.
		Now, another item I wanted to cover tonight is a really weird one.
		My wife and I are really big fans of Who Wants to Be a Millionaire.
		I think that's a great show.
		I mean, we're really stuck on it.
		Regis Philbin is great.
		A little caustic, but great.
		And in fact, he'd be a fun guy to interview.
		I'd love to interview you, Regis.
		But we're big fans.
		And there's a story out tonight about Who Wants to Be a Millionaire.
		About 30 million Americans watch it every time it's on.
		We're two of them.
		Here.
		Anyway, here's the story, in part by the Associated Press.
		The company that insures ABC's hit game show, Who Wants to Be a Millionaire, is suing them to get out of its contract because it's claiming the questions are too easy and they're at risk of paying out too much prize money.
		I don't get any of this story.
		I don't get any of it.
		ABC says viewers should not worry about the legal fight.
		They're planning no changes to the show.
		Good for you, ABC.
		The London-based insurance underwriters Gaush Hawk, that's GOS HAWK Syndicate, filed suit in Britain's High Court of Justice on the 24th of January against Buena Vista Entertainment Inc., the show's producers, to end its contract.
		In essence, the insurance company said it needed assurances that who wants to be a millionaire, get this folks, would ask harder questions and select dumber contestants.
		Now, what is it that I don't...
		Maybe okay.
		Although I think they're hard enough.
		People who have done it.
		But selecting dumber contestants, now I think that's an insult to everybody concerned with the production of the show.
		And I'm proud of ABC that they told him to stick it.
		Where the sun rarely shines, I'm sure.
		So good for them.
		But dumber contestants, dumber contestants.
		So what do they do?
		They change the curve of the testing they do.
		Because, you know, you've got to call up and qualify for that show.
		So what do they begin to do?
		Assign points when you miss?
		Oh, we'll take him.
	Look at that.
	He missed three.
	I don't think so.
	And then there's one more thing I don't get about this.
	It's such a popular show with 30 million viewers that the commercials alone must yield millions of dollars for every show they run so they could pay the million.
	Even if they get a millionaire, they could pay it from their own coffers.
	What do they need an insurance company for?
	Self-insure.
	Long as a show is this popular, you could afford to do it the hell with an insurance company.
	So in case you're a fan of that show as we are, that's a pretty interesting controversy going on right now.
	If you were in San Diego earlier, you may have felt a big boom because from the Mexican border to up in Orange County, about 100 miles north, something went kaboom.
	Residents around San Diego County reported hearing loud booms Thursday afternoon, but of course, as usual, no explanation for the source of the sounds.
	They're thinking now the hackers are using big university mainframes to do their dirty work.
	And that's quite logical, of course.
	They're probably not as protected as well as they might be.
	And so that's probably what's going on.
	Here's a little commentary on in some newspaper, Chicago Sun, not just some newspaper Chicago Sun-Times and it's talking about MTBE which 60 minutes did the program on and they say whether it's global warming or MTBE a chemical added to gasoline to improve air quality we're learning about the law of unintended consequences unintended
	consequences.
	Now that would seem to apply in a lot of areas, you know, like if you're trying to bring back dinosaurs, unintended consequences.
	If you're sending all kinds of things into the air, unintended consequences.
	If you're trying to create mini black holes and you're ready to push the button, imagine what unintended consequences might be.
	So I wanted to get that on the air too.
	Unintended consequences.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then this from the Seattle Times today.
		Wind knew it was a microburst on the ground, an exceptionally strong wind that hit a two-block area in west Seattle on Tuesday afternoon was a weather phenomena.
		They say rare in the area known as a microburst.
		And the winds caused major property damage along, get this, a short stretch of one street shortly before four o'clock in the afternoon on Tuesday.
		Now we had our own little phenomena earlier tonight, just about three hours ago here in the desert.
		All of a sudden, out of nowhere, you've got to remember now, this is February, right?
		February?
		It is.
		Out of nowhere came the crash of thunder and lightning everywhere and we had one hell of a storm.
		Now we had very hard driving rain rain and maybe some hail at night in the desert in February.
unidentified		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm telling you, our weather is really, really, really getting weird all right now on to the other matter at hand we're going to have quite a bit of time tonight with Matthew Alper Matthew welcome back to the program thank you Art nice to be back it's great to have you you know Matthew my wife,
		Ramona, just recorded a movie for me that I just finished playing, watching earlier today.
		And I wonder if you've seen it.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's called At Play in the Fields of the Lord.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		I heard of it as a stage play.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		I didn't even know there was a film, so I'm not familiar.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		God, it's a wonderful film.
		Anybody out there should watch it.
		At Play in the Fields of the Lord.
		And it was filmed entirely in Amazonia.
		And it revolved around, without giving away the plot.
		It involved around a contact with a never-before-contacted group of Indians deep in the Amazon and the consequences of that contact and their belief systems,
		what they believed, and of course why the story involves some, I think, a Catholic, a missionary and a couple of other missionary zealots who went down there and decided they were going to convert these savages into good Christians.
		Rice-eating Christians.
		And it turned out very tragically.
		It was just a wonderful movie.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		A reasonably common occurrence, I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It does seem to be a reasonably common occurrence, but it goes to the very center of what you have talked about in your book, The God Part of the Brain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, hey, by the way, I understand your book is now on Amazon.com.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Mm-hmm.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		As well as in Barnes and Noble.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		And in BarnesandNoble.com.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		so it began as a self-published little book and now you're in still a self-published little book it's just available in more stores well Amazon.com is getting right on up there and Barnes & Noble that's no schlock either.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		And the sales boosted dramatically the week that you were on Larry King Live and mentioned me in my book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's right, I did, didn't I?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		My rating on Amazon went from like 20,000 to like 1,200 for a week.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're kidding.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		You pulled me down many thousands, and then I sank back into the muck.
		But it's still selling reasonably well.
		That's actually not even that bad.
		They carry like something like 400,000 books.
		So if you're still in the top 50,000, it's not that bad, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, we'll probably take you right back up into the top hundred tonight.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		I would hope so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I would imagine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so now your book is very much more generally available.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And we're going to talk quite a bit about it tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you familiar with a guest I've had on called Neil Slade?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're not?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		Oh, my.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, Neil deals with the brain as well.
		He's worked with some real experts in the area, and we might get him on the air with you for a few moments or so as the show goes on.
		But right now, I would like to have you stand by because we are out of time.
		So hold on.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Get that movie and watch it at Play in the Fields of the Lord.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's very instructive.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from February 10th, 2000.
		If you love her, then you must send her somewhere where she's never been before.
		Morning praises and morning gazes won't get you where you want to go.
		Birth of love, something tender won't win.
		You wanna know by now.
		God and Tender won't win.
		If I had told her that I loved you, she would have stayed till who knows when.
		But I guess she couldn't understand it when I said I wanna be your friend.
		Because a friend would never doubt you, or ever put you up in time.
		And now I wonder what you do tonight.
		Oh, yes, I wonder what you're doing tonight.
		Oh, I wonder what she's doing to die Ah, ah, ah You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks tonight and onto our presentation of Coast to Coast AM from February 10th, 2000.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Matthew Alper is here tonight.
		We're going to be talking a lot about our brains and God and whether our brains are actually wired to believe in God or a God or a creator or a higher power.
		Whether we are literally demanded, it is demanded by our brains that we have such a belief to protect ourselves against the greatest fear that man has.
		You know, as I consider Matthew Alber, strange as he may be, he's got a spectacular background, a very good education.
		And just before launching into what we really want to talk about tonight, you know, I really would like to know how he got to be smuggling trucks in Africa.
		Now, that strikes me as a really dangerous occupation, smuggling trucks in Africa.
		They pretty much shoot you when they catch you for that, don't they?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Probably.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		I never got caught, so I don't really know what they do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I mean, did you answer an ad, truck smuggler?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		No, no.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		It was just a strange combination of events, which is pretty much the story of my life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I mean, you don't just get to Africa or you don't go there to smuggle trucks.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		No, I was a fifth-grade teacher at the time, and I decided that I needed to get away.
		I didn't really know what I wanted to do with my life, so I actually was able to convince a friend into coming along with me on an overland trip that would cross the continent of Africa with about 12 other people who were much more organized and responsible than we were.
		And about three months, four months into the trip, A, I decided I wanted my independence because I felt that they were just rushing through the continent and there were more things I wanted to see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know tourists stink.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so and I had had a So you had to finance it, right?
		Well, I had a chance experience with these Dutch students who were selling a truck that they crossed the Sahara in hoping that they were going to sell for a large profit and they couldn't sell it and they ran out of time.
		I gave them $100 for this truck.
		Me and my friend left the Overland group, drove around on our own in this 1952 German fire engine, and the next thing we knew, we're selling the fire engine to these Nigerians, and that's how things started.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You sold it to the Nigerians.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A fire truck.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		We were in Togo at the time, and we had to drive the truck through Togo, through Benin, and then into Nigeria.
		And that was illegal.
		So that's kind of what happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, these African countries, they have border checkpoints.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Well, the thing is, it's not so much getting the truck in, it's getting ourselves out.
		Because if you have something on your visa stamp, if you go in with a vehicle, that's called a laissez-passé.
		It's the French meaning you're being given allowance to cross the country in the vehicle, but you're not bringing it as a commercial vehicle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you didn't have that?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Well, we did have the laissez-passe.
		The thing is, you can't leave that country without either your vehicle or the tax papers that showed that when you sold it, you did it legitimately.
		So it's more smuggling yourself out than the truck in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So how did you get out?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		These people paid cousins of theirs to walk us through the jungles, just crossing the invisible borders with the machetes.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
unidentified		Yeah.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was skin.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		They said, you know, that there are border snipers and, you know, keep it down.
unidentified		Oh, God.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		It's great for the trip.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let's dig in now.
		And if you would, a lot of the audience, believe it or not, will not have heard your thesis.
		They don't understand what you mean by the God part of the brain, so lay it out.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Just to give a basic overview, what I'm hypothesizing is that essentially that spirituality is a genetically inherited trait, that the human animal is wired to be spiritual, and that this represents the consequence of an evolutionary adaptation that emerged in our species as a coping mechanism that enabled us to survive our unique aware of our own deaths.
		So that basically, all religion is the consequence of an impulse that we're born with to make us believe in some kind of higher being.
		And through the existence of this higher being, of this spiritual realm, something that every culture from the beginning of our species has believed in, which again I'm suggesting is more than just a coincidence, that it has to do with our essential wiring.
		And again, we're wired to believe in, well, there are three universal components to this inherent belief system.
		One is a belief in a higher force or power, which most often referred to as a god or gods.
		The other is a spiritual or transcendental component that exists within ourselves, we as humans, and what we call a soul.
		And the other universal is the preservation of that spiritual component or soul in some form of an afterlife.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I believe in all those things.
unidentified		You do?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do, Matthew.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Well, you and the vast majority of the rest of your species.
		So you're right on target.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My species?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm there too, but you are our species.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You are, after all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, thank you.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Our species.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Our species.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you don't believe in a higher power.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Well, what I'm suggesting is that we really have no verifiable evidence to believe in anything other than the fact that our brains are compelling us, and there is now hard evidence, which I will discuss as the show goes on, that there are parts of our brain,
		parts of our physiology, that do compel us to feel these sensations that we refer to as spiritual, this sense of bliss, of peace, of tranquility, often combined with, complemented by another sensation we define as sort of a dissolution of our ego boundaries, a sense of losing ourselves to a cosmic self, a sense of what we call cosmic or God consciousness.
		And so it's a combination of these belief systems, which actually they find is located in one part of the brain, and these sensations that are located in another part of the brain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much actual scientific hard evidence is there?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's growing.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		As a matter of fact, I keep re-editing this book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, can they wire a person's brain and then the person would go and begin to pray or contemplate something very spiritual?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's not like they've ever done a spiritual function transplant.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		They've never taken the spiritual function, that site in the brain, out of a priest and stuck it in an atheist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I didn't mean anything, although that's an idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What I meant was, can they wire the brain so that they can actually identify the specific part of the brain that begins to get active as you consider spiritual things?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		What you confused me was when you said wire the brain.
		They have what are called spec scans.
		It's kind of like an MRI for the brain.
		We've all seen those, you know, those images.
		They look like sort of a colorful x-ray.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Right, okay.
		That's called a spec scan.
		And what it does is, let's say you went into the spec scan and they played you music.
		They would be locating the musical parts of the brain, the parts being neurally activated.
		And they'd be able to, if they took 10 people from 10 cultures, stuck them in a spec scan, and played them music, the same part of their brain would be lit up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now that's really interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it is a specific part of the brain that responds to music.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, yeah.
		For every cognitive function that we have, whether it's our language functions, and we also know this because we know that there are parts of the brain that, for instance, they're called aphasias.
		If they're damaged, then what it does is it affects that part of your consciousness.
		So for instance, you can have a language aphasia.
		It can happen whether a tumor might erupt in that region of the brain, any kind of damage during surgery, a gunshot.
		And if you suffer damage to this part of the brain, you'll lose, for instance, your ability to comprehend certain words or the manner in which you can comprehend words.
		So for instance, certain linguistic aphasias, you might suffer a brain trauma and be able to read words, understand words that you read, but not understand the same words that you have spoken.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got the spirit of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you cite even one case in which somebody had head trauma of any kind and was a deep believer, a very spiritual person who suddenly lost it when they hit their head?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, not that, but this is what I've heard.
		And as a matter of fact, one of the first people to notify me, and he heard about me through a friend who had listened to me on your radio show.
		And his name is Dr. Sadwin.
		And he was the chief of neuropsychiatry, the graduate hospital at University of Pennsylvania, which is like a top ten school.
		And he wrote me, he sent me a whole package of pamphlets he had written on head trauma and brain trauma.
		That's a specialty.
		And he said, that's amazing.
		My friend told me about you, and he got me a copy of your book.
		And all my life I've been doing these cases with head injuries.
		And I find that I've always been fascinated.
		Why do these people, after they get banged in the head, become suddenly religious?
		And so there are a number of cases of this.
		As a matter of fact, the friends of mine...
		Honestly, that I've never heard of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There should be, shouldn't there?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		But see, there would be.
		It's just that it's not the kind of thing it's not as evident.
		It's not something like a doctor would notice.
		There probably aren't too many people who've had someone who was really religious in the house who got banged in the head and then ran to the doctor and said, my son, he doesn't pray anymore.
		But there are cases of someone who gets knocked in the head and they have a religious conversion.
		And a friend of mine just wrote me an email, my friend Tanya, saying how her son was in a car accident.
		And after the fact, he went through this fit for like a week where he was obsessively praying.
		And she would tell people, my son, he's changed.
		There's something weird about him.
		He's not the same person.
		And they'd all say, well, it's good that he's praying.
		It's a miracle that he lived.
		So because of the way the majority of society thinks, we don't take note of the other extreme.
		But there are examples of, yes, where head trauma can trigger the spiritual function, can activate it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What bothers me about your whole thesis is that it makes sense.
		And it rips at me because it makes sense.
		It just tears at me because it makes sense.
		And it rips at the fabric of what I believe.
		I mean, I really do have strong convictions.
		I'm not a church go.
		I don't go to church on Sunday.
		And I'm not even sure about the nature of God, but I surely believe there is a Creator very strongly.
		And I am a spiritual person.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		And you believe in a soul?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir, I do.
		And I believe that we have a soul that exists after physical death.
		I believe that very strongly.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, one of the things I'd like to eventually discuss later on is I sent you the neurophysiology of the soul.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		And this is a new addition to the book where I discuss actually the parts of the brain responsible for self-identity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, explain it.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, there's all this research.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		I mean, the cognitive sciences are very new, so this stuff is all coming out like now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, conventional wisdom says the soul is something within us that is entirely separate from the physical and survives death.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that a fair description?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay, and moreover, we believe that it's really what we call the soul is actually consciousness.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		It's what we refer to as ourselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, self-awareness.
unidentified		Right, exactly.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		So that like when the body dies, there will be a part of, you know, me that will say, yep, here I am.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		I'm still Matthew.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's an argument that says, look, we are electrical beings.
		You know we are.
		The neurons fire.
		It's electricity, my friend.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Even though there's physical death, that electricity does not cease to exist.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think you might be confusing philosophies where energy doesn't cease to exist.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Actually, the electricity itself will stop.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Energy in that form.
		Right.
		Okay.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Because the electricity, the electrical impulses, the sodium ion pump will stop pumping when you die.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sorry.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		You know that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Energy.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay, yes.
		Right, we've discussed this, and I agree.
		Absolutely.
		First law of thermodynamics, the foundation of all physics.
		Energy can neither be created nor destroyed.
		And again, and I've addressed you on this, does it really matter if our energy is preserved in the form of a combination of soil and nitrogen and cosmic dust?
		That will exist, yes, in many variations throughout all eternity, but it won't be Art Bell.
		Consciousness, your lights will be out.
		So, I mean, do you really get that much consolation out of the fact that you'll know that, well, one day I'm going to be dirt.
		And that's good enough for me.
		Because if it is, great.
		Then, you know, you're set.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, that's not good enough for me.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't want to think one day I'm going to be dirt.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Okay.
		So how do you perceive that eternal consciousness?
		How will it be more than dirt?
		How will it resemble Art Bell at all?
		Or will it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've been out of my body, Matthew.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		You've experienced a sensation that leads you to believe you've been out of your body.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Like you don't have on video, like you floating around the room and your wife saying, hey, pass me a glass of water.
		Okay.
		You've experienced a sensation where you've believed you've been out of your body.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've been dreaming all my life.
		I know what dreams are, even odd and bizarre dreams.
		I know that I've been dreaming, and I know that one time, Matthew, I left my body.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that means, to me, there is something separate in us that does eclipse the physical or is able to?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		No, there actually is a part of us.
		Okay, and this is new to you.
		There's a new chapter in my newest edition of the book called Near-Death Experiences.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ah, you wrote about them.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Okay.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		So for those of you who have the old edition, I recommend that you go out and buy the new edition because it's full of all kinds of new and fun chapters.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fun chapters.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Fun.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		So this one, Near-Death Experiences, I reduce it to the neurophysiology of the experience, what's taking place in your brain chemically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you call it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Near-death?
unidentified		Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't believe I called it that.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		I think it's just near-death experiences.
unidentified		I see.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		But there's I break down the experience into its neurophysiology, which includes the out-of-body experience, which has been a universal symptom of the near-death experience.
		And most interestingly enough, I didn't know that this information was out there, but I started researching medical journals, and I found that they've been doing a lot of research on near-death experiences.
		And one of the more interesting facets of the research is the fact that there are drugs which can induce a near-death experience, including the out-of-body experience, or what's considered the out-of-body sensation, because it can be reduced to a neurotransmitter.
		If that neurotransmitter is flowing in your brain, you will have a near-death experience.
		And it's a combination of endorphin flow and glutamate, which is the neurotransmitter, which is naturally activated in the times of low oxygen levels and low blood sugar.
		And usually during something like a near-death experience, that's one of the things we're suffering, like low oxygen levels in the brain.
		Maybe we have a heart attack or heart attack.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know what really ticks me off about you is that you sound so logical, and the logic tears at what I believe.
		It really is driving me nuts, Matthew.
		Hold on, we're at the top of the hour.
		Matthew Alper is here, and his book is well, well worth a read if you've got the guts.
		It's called The God Part of the Brain, and I continue to have him on the air because, as I just said, it makes sense.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from February 10, 2000.
		To Coast AM from February
		10, 2000.
		Dream ground here.
		And the I shall look at that bird in you, a driving ribbon here.
		And I will call the breath of the moon in the pool of the night.
		The shadow dreams appear to be a little.
		Lovely day, lovely night, where would I be without my woman?
		Good morning, this is not the night, you might be...
		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from February 10th, 2000.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I just got a fax from somebody named Brian in Fort Wayne, Indiana.
		And you know what he says here?
		He says, Art, I can't believe you've got this guy on your show again.
		He's so full of crap.
		Sorry, but there's just too much proof of God's existence.
		So I called Brian up and said, you want a shot at him?
		And Brian said, oh, no, I need a lot of time to prepare.
		I can't do that.
unidentified		Lonely baby.
unidentified		Why would I be without my wall?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Brian, where's your faith?
unidentified		Lonely baby.
unidentified		Lonely baby.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're studying.
unidentified		You're bleeping.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do you need to prepare?
		I don't understand.
		The reason I bring him back is because what he says is so damn logical that, I don't know, if you're not challenged by it, then you're just, you're not thinking.
		And I would think anybody who would want to be secure in their faith would consider something like you're hearing tonight.
		At the very least, consider what you're hearing tonight.
		And then reject it on equally solid grounds.
		At the very least, Brian, I am disappointed in you.
		Well, hey, Brian in Fort Wayne, if you're sitting out there seething and have changed your mind, send me a fax.
		In the meantime, a doctor in Denver, Colorado has done what Brian has not in a fax.
		And so, Matthew, I have a question for you posed by this doctor.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You ready for a big one?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you believe in the color red?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Do I believe in the color red?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes, yes.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		I believe that red is a...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that a video caller?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		No, I believe it's a, Real, it's a concept contrived by humans by which we gave a name for 660 nanometers of light wavelength.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, that's fair.
		But it's real.
		By the definition you just gave, it's real.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		No, but again, by the definition I'm giving, it's relative because we can't say that the real sunset is red.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Well, we could call it red in our perception.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah, well, we could call it sink, or we could call it.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		No, but it's not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or it wouldn't matter what we called it, but there is such a thing in the spectrum.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Again, it's a human, it's a contrived term.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		I see where he's going.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He's saying, well, no, I haven't even said that.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		The fact that we perceive it and it's real isn't the same true of God.
unidentified		I get you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I wasn't done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was done.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was going to get you even more.
		But you must admit, in the spectrum, there is that thing.
		Arose by any other name.
		It's still in the spectrum.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay, but see, no.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		In the spectrum, there's a wavelength.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		The human animal has given a name to the way we perceive, the way that that wavelength of light falls on our retinas, we've defined it in a certain way we call red.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		What we see as red is relative because my version of red might be different from yours.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		and it's certainly different from all the other species so for instance when Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have fire engines there, right?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and are they red?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, are they red?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Yes, they are red.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, then you and I perceive it the same way.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, do you believe in middle C, the musical tone?
unidentified		Mm-hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		He goes on.
		These can both be elicited by electrical stimulation of the brain in the absence of the actual color or sound.
		That doesn't mean they don't exist.
		Neurological activity in a part of the brain that maybe can perceive or fabricate the existence of other realities neither proves nor disproves the existence of those realities.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay, okay.
		Now this is the thing.
		When we're talking about sensory information, we're talking about the way we receive data from the external world.
		But what I'm suggesting is aren't concepts of a God.
		Like when we say, I feel like the spirit of the deceased in the room.
		You know, let's say someone passes away and everybody's, you know, at the funeral parlor and we say we feel his spirit.
		It's not that we're actually feeling like a sensation on our skin.
		All of our perception, it's not the way we're translating information, which is called transduction, the way the brain interprets information that falls on our sensory perceptors, but rather the way when we say we feel like the sense of God, we feel the spirit of the dead, it's not touch, it's not hot or it's not cold.
		It's actually coming from within.
		So it's not based on an external perceptor.
		And that's why, though you and I both see the fire truck as red, yourself and someone from another culture will not see God as the same thing.
		Because you're not seeing God as like everyone's looking up at the throne in the sky and saying, yeah, I see him.
		He's got a long beard.
		We're all seeing him in a different way because we're really only just wired to perceive a greater force.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you hear the interview I did the other night with a gay man, one of the longest surviving AIDS patients in the U.S.?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doesn't matter.
		This man was one of the first diagnosed cases of AIDS in the U.S. He's still alive.
		His partner died.
		He has now written a book called Signals.
		And one of the most provocative things that he said at the beginning of the program was that he and his partner, knowing what they might be facing, went to Mexico and they bought the suicide medicines that they would require at the right time.
		His friend jumped the gun, took the medicines for a sec.
		He had no motive.
		He just committed suicide.
		He was the first to discover his friend's body.
		He was holding the body and shaking the body in anger at his friend for having done this when his friend told him if he would go out into the backyard and jump the fence and look in the trash can at the house next door, he would find a suicide note.
		The police were there.
		He did it.
		They tried to stop him, but they couldn't stop him.
		He jumped the fence.
		He opened the can, and there was the suicide note.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really okay?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure.
		I think I might have missed something.
		Well, no, I'm dying, and he said there's a suicide.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no, no, no.
		His friend was dead when he found him.
		D-E-A-D.
		Dead.
		Dirt.
		And your terms.
unidentified		Okay.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		I mean, everybody who's spiritual has some kind of story for, you know, to support their beliefs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a pretty serious story, though.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Most people's are.
		I mean, I've had, you know, people who were communicated with by the dead.
		I've heard it, you know, thousands of times.
		Everyone who's spiritual, who's religious, has perceived reality in some way that they believe that they've had contact with the dead.
		And to them, it's as real as the color red.
		And I'm suggesting, because we're wired that way, that the brain plays tricks on us.
		We play tricks on ourselves.
		And it's not even that.
		It's just, again, our wiring, we don't necessarily perceive the world as an exact mirror of what the world represents.
		We see it as human beings.
		We see it through the human lens.
		And part of the human lens is to see the world spiritually.
		And we can interpret different things.
		We interpret our realities in a spiritual way.
		And people tend to be led, therefore, to believe things that ordinarily they wouldn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Argument on your side, again, by the way, you better go out and everybody else in the audience, as soon as you can, go rent a movie called At Play in the Fields of the Lord.
		In the meantime, have we ever come upon in the deep Amazon or in the Philippines or in some remote part of Africa, any group or tribe of people who do not believe in something beyond the physical?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Not in all of my exploration of books on social and cultural anthropology, world religion.
		Nope.
		Here it's quote number 12 in my book.
		There is not a civilization known to us that did not have faith in God or God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a strong argument.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		that's a terribly strong argument and if god were the same god why then the people down in the deep amazon should be talking about jesus and If there's one God, why would he create a race of beings that perceive him in so many different ways that it compels them to constantly propel themselves into wars to kill one another, proving that theirs is the right one?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		That'd be a very whimsical and odd God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there are a lot of people killed in his name.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		And that's why I wrote this book.
		Because not until we can recognize this as an inherent impulse in us, will we be able to contain the more negative aspects of that influence?
		And that seems to be rampant discrimination and hatred among peoples and leading to eventually what we see time and time again, acts of genocide and war.
		And until we understand this impulse as exactly just that and look at it from a rationalistic perspective, we're going to be an animal that continues to barbarize one another.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you believe that there are people who have parapsychological powers in their living brain?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you believe that?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You don't even believe that?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		No.
		I'd be glad to.
		You know, I went out looking for this stuff as like a hopeful magician.
		I hoped to be the one who'd be able to find the laws that would allow me to shoot fireballs from my fingers and hover and fly and do telekinesis and all of those neat things.
		I was hoping to have a conversation with God.
		I mean, I went looking for this stuff, looking for transcendence.
		I wanted to find the magic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you sure you have not done all of this because you could not find it?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		No, I did this because this is what I found.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You cite, let's get back to the science part.
		You cite as one of the reasons that, as scientific proof, there exists God part of the brain.
		Just the brain, not a God, but part of the brain that demands God be there.
		Temporal lobe epilepsy.
		How does that fit in?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Well, it was one of the most provocative experiments done that sort of led to even the, I mean, I had written my book before that experiment was done, but now the main body of neurophysiologists believe what they call that there is a God module in the brain.
		That's their word for it.
		And this research was triggered by a series of experiments done by a Dr. Ramachandran, who came out with a book last year called Phantoms in the Brain.
		And he was at UC San Diego, and he found that there were, while studying epileptics, that there was a group, a population of epileptics whose epilepsy, whereas like some people, the epilepsy was triggered by like a flashing light.
		In others, it was triggered by a sequence of certain musical notes or chords.
		And in others, it was triggered by religious icons or language.
		And he found that in these people, that when their brains were studied, that the neural activity was based in their temporal lobes.
		And not only was it religious language or icons that could trigger, that could affect an epileptic seizure in them, but furthermore, these were people who tended to be highly religious in general in their normal life and during their seizure came out of it professing that they had had like a religious experience, that they felt a union with God during their seizure.
		And it was found that there was this neuroactivity in the temporal lobe, which seems to be the part of the brain from which our perceptions of some kind of higher being are located.
		This study was further supported by research done by a doctor, Michael Persinger, who created a, he's a neurophysiologist who created a helmet called a transcranial magnetic stimulator.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is that?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay, this should be like right up your alley.
		This is like, you know, sci-fi almost.
		But basically it's a helmet, like a big football helmet, and it can direct a strong magnetic field at specific parts of the brain, stimulating them.
		So prompted by this research, he put on his helmet and he pointed it at his temporal lobe.
		And when he took the helmet off, he said that he was an atheist and he had his first experience with God.
		He had triggered his temporal lobe and he felt the presence of God.
		He didn't become religious or spiritual after that, but he said, whatever that experience was, that's how I interpreted it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This man was an atheist.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, he was actually an agnostic.
		He had no formed opinion in his beliefs.
		That's how he stated it.
		He had his first religious experience, his first contact with God.
		He felt the first presence of God in his life.
		And it's probably as much as it might be dormant in my own brain or by the fact that my logical centers have overwhelmed it, if I put on the same helmet and pointed it at that same place, I would have that same experience.
		And I've even had experiences in my life during times of crisis or anxiety where I actually felt that draw of believing in something.
		And I felt it like a drug, like an opiate coming over me.
		And it was like, wow, what a sensation.
		And I thought to myself, wow, should I let myself go with this?
		And given what I had known, I said, you know, I don't think I should because I don't want to go there.
		I'd rather pull back.
		And I pulled myself away from that sensation.
		I said, I resisted it.
		Now, a religious person would say I resisted God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		that's what i was about say are are you sure since i i mean wouldn't science demand that you go ahead and cross that threshold so that you can logically uh...
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		dissemble it and I had been there.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		I felt this warm, like being like a basking in the sun.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you felt the beginning of it, but you said you pulled back from it.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Well, I pulled back from, like, no, I was thinking to myself, like, gee, should I embrace some religion?
		I hadn't even thought which one.
		Just should I embrace some religion?
		Because that sensation felt warm.
		It felt warmer than the anxiety I was feeling at the time.
		And I thought, gee, you know, just any religion, I'll just pull something out of a hat.
		Let it be Zeus.
		But this feels good.
		This is like a drug.
		And it probably was in Dawson's flooding into me by giving in to that particular escape mechanism that exists in all of our brains.
		And it's the foundation for the phenomena we call religious conversions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then if a person were to really get crude, those people who are deeply religious and get a lot out of it are like junkies.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		They're totally junkies.
		Religion's the opiate of the masses.
		Sure, why let go?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It has another important, this is kind of on the sidetrack, but it's a very important aspect.
		It has a societal function.
		In other words, if people believe there is a Creator and that there is a life following this one in which you will be accountable for things you have done in this life, then you are to some degree, your actions and the way you interact with society is to some degree controlled, correct?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it has its multi-purpose, as are most of our cognitive traits.
		I think the predominant reason that we possess a spiritual function is to allow our species to cope with our awareness of death.
		We're the only self-conscious animal, and through that self-conscious awareness, we became the only animal aware of our own mortalities.
		That's why I believe was the strongest reason that prompted natural selection to modify our brains in such a way, but it also is utilized to play a role in our social organization.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, but if Matthew Albert's book suddenly went to number one on the New York Times bestseller list, it was embraced suddenly by millions of people, wouldn't we have a Mad Max society on our hands?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why not?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's a chapter in the book which I think is fairly instrumental to the philosophy I'm trying to offer, and it's called The Guilt and Morality Function.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll get to that.
		We're here at the bottom of the hour.
		I suppose you think reincarnation is silliness, too, huh?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		I don't like to use the word silly.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		It's just the way we're wired.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just not true, in other words.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not real.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		A misperception.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		An inherited misperception.
unidentified		All right.
		You're listening to Arkbell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from February 10th, 2000.
		Many a young maid lost her baubles to my trade.
		Many a soldier shed his light foot on my blade.
		The master cut me in the spring of 25.
		But I am still alive.
		I was a sailor.
		I was born upon the tide with the sea idea to buy.
		I still scooted around the horn of Mexico.
		I went along the world with names a little close.
		And when the arch broke up, it lived that I got killed.
		But I'm living Don't know when I've been so blue.
		Don't know what come over you.
		You found someone and don't admit my brown eyes blue.
		I'll be back when you're gone.
		I'll be crying all night long and don't take my breath out.
		Tell me, tell me.
		Give me love, give me a bad.
		Tell me now and don't make me cry.
		Say I don't say goodbye.
		I think to teach you that.
		Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight's program originally aired February 10th, 2000.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Matthew Alper is here with hard logic.
		And you know, I would think that anybody who is a religious person, deeply religious, would not be afraid of what Matthew's saying.
		In fact, would read it, digest it, and come back at it with the same kind of logic that he expresses in his argument.
		Those who are not afraid would do that.
		I realize that that may cut out a large percentage of the population, but that's what I think people who are not afraid would do.
		wouldn't you?
		Okay, Matthew Alper's book is called The God Part of the Brain.
		And if you are angry and you don't buy the book, then you're chicken.
		You know, that's really what I think.
		I think that the real thinking people out there, the real people who would test what they think they believe, would read this book.
		You can get it now finally at Amazon.com and in, you know, the major bookstores and stuff like that.
		Amazon.com is a good deal because they give you 30% off.
		And you should buy quickly from them because I don't know how long they're going to be around.
		They're going to go broke given those kind of prices.
		You can also get my book, by the way, The Coming Global Superstorm in the same place at the same discount.
		That's Art Bell, me, and Whitley Streeber.
		That's another book you should read.
		Now, I have a rule on my program.
		I've had it for 14 years of doing this program.
		People calling are not allowed to quote scripture.
		That's a hard, passed rule on this program.
		However, I'm the host of this program, and I can break it.
		And I have on occasion done so, and I'm about to do it again for Matthew's sake.
		So, here it comes, Matthew.
		You ready?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Teach me the word.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Jeremiah 31, 33.
		Quote, I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts.
		No longer will a man teach his neighbor, because they will all know me.
		End quote.
		Now, why is it not possible to imagine, in the scheme of things at play here in the fields of the Lord, that God put the God part of the brain in the brain?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, that would bring one back to the point I brought up, you know, we discussed earlier, which is what kind of God would implant a concept in the heads of his creatures, programming them to believe in many different translations of what he is, so much so that they go to killing one another to prove that their version is the right one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hate that answer.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		And also to quote, you know, the theists, here's a quote by Thomas Aquinas, it seems that the existence of God is self-evident.
		Those things are said to be self-evident to us, the knowledge of which is naturally implanted in us.
		Men have been intuiting the God part of the brain as far back as recorded time.
		We just didn't know neurophysiology.
		I mean, this is new stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here's one to support you.
		I asked, so I received, it says, you were asked if there was any documentation of individuals who hit their head or whatever, and then perhaps became less religious.
		Well, I've got a Friend in Ohio who was very religious.
		He went to church all the time, church events, prayed a lot, read religious books, wore religious t-shirts, went out evangelizing, you know, the whole works.
		He was a stagehand, and he was in Tennessee doing a gig where he was 30 feet up on a scaffold.
		He fell that 30 feet down and basically hit his head.
		He has not been the same since.
		He now does not go to church, does not pray, does not act the same, does not do the same religious things he did before.
		He now cusses, which is something he would never have done before.
		He's always telling everyone he is not the same person now as before.
		He even emailed the other day telling me he has doubts.
		He's even a Christian now.
		So, as your guest said, that's you, perhaps there are cases out there, but they're just not reported.
		I know my friend Mark is not at all willing to come out and tell individuals about his new self, as he's somewhat, I think, ashamed of how he's acting now.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		It's probably, see, the reason, I mean, the majority of the science is because they haven't really speculated on a God part of the brain, and also because one of the battles that I have to contend with, or that this science that I call bio-theology has to contend with, the fact that what would have been most of its proponents, the scientists, are religious as well to a large degree.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Just because one has a...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I interview a lot of scientists here on the air.
		And a lot of them, when I pin them down, and I do it all the time, I say, do you believe in the God, the God of the Bible?
		Long pause.
		No.
		So a lot of men of hard science...
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		I think the majority of them will because they still possess a spiritual function.
		They might, because of their training in logic, they might have abandoned their conventional religions, but most of them will still tell you.
		If you ask people, if you want to get to the heart of someone's beliefs, even if they deny a God, say, do you believe that your conscious experience, that your actions are just the stirrings of an organic machine that you have no control over?
		Or do you believe in free will?
		Do you believe that there's a force in you that gives you the right and ability to make choices?
		Most people will be very reluctant to forfeit their soul.
		To say, nope, I'm just a chance combination of atoms being thrust through the whirlwind of time.
		Consciousness is a hallucination that has no bearing on the infinite and eternal world, and I am not immortal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's try this out on you, just for the fun of it, Matthew.
		Here you are contemplating how your book's doing after the show tonight, maybe.
		And there is an apparition that appears in your room.
		And the apparition has glowing.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Is she naked?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I didn't say it was a she.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Never mind, never mind, go on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It has glowing red eyes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And yes, big breasts.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		And so this thing says to you, Matthew, I can make your book number one on the New York Times bestseller list, and I can keep it there for two years.
		You'll be rich beyond belief.
		Your ideas will be widespread across the face of the world.
		Just one little thing.
		I've got this paper here I want you to sign that says when you expire, because you're going to live a very rich life, you're going to be a rich man.
		But when you do go, I get your soul.
		Sign here.
		Put an X right here.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		You mean that thing I signed last month?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wah?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that document.
		I didn't think anyone knew.
		I'm still waiting.
		I've been gypped.
		I feel like I've got a soul here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		She bans her, Matthew.
		Come on.
		I know you didn't sign it a month ago.
		If that were to appear.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, first of all, if the apparition did appear and I had tested it and questioned my sanity and it all seemed to be real, well, then I would say, well, I guess I've been wrong, and I guess there is a God, and I guess there is a soul, and gee, do I want to sign my soul over for fame and fortune?
unidentified		Yeah.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		So it would be a different question.
		Would I sign if I was told, you know, if I got the book of a soul and I got to look into it and it said, you know, the soul is something that will last for eternity and you will get to keep it for all eternity, et cetera, et cetera, or I could forfeit it for the next 20 or 30 odd years of fame and fortune.
		You don't know.
		Of course, I'd say no.
		I'd say it's selling just fine.
		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you add a chapter?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a really serious ethical thing.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		I'd add a sequel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A sequel?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Condemning the first book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Here's another one.
		Art, your guest is full of it.
		He simply must not understand or ever heard of biblical prophecy.
		We're living it every day.
		Let me twist this around a little bit, say, ask the obvious.
		I mean, there is the Bible.
		There are very ancient, well-documented scrolls that we can read that all indicate the man Jesus was here on earth.
		Miracles occurred.
		This was reasonably well documented.
		Yes, I know.
		Tell a line of people a secret and it ends up different on the other end.
		But, I mean, after all, there's a fair amount of support for the Bible.
		How do you deal with that question, Matthew?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's such an easy one to me.
		And first of all, when you say the Bible, it's a very presumptuous statement because it's presuming there's only one.
		And there's hundreds, there's thousands, and they've been around before the New Testament.
		I mean, there were people believing in a number of gods.
		There were civilizations created where they went to temple every day and prayed to a number of gods before there was a belief in A, a monotheistic God and B, a holy trinity with Jesus as its Messiah.
		So when we speak of the Bible, that's really just coming from the mindset of somebody who was raised in a Christian household and is convinced that the New Testament is the Bible and there is no other way.
		However, had that same person who wrote you that email or faxed you that letter been switched at birth and inadvertently raised as a Muslim, he'd send you that same fax except he'd be preaching you the prophets of Muhammad and Allah.
		And he'd be telling you, how can this person not accept the doctrine of Allah?
		Who is this man?
unidentified		Who is this infidel?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		So he's just preaching his training, the way he was raised.
		Religion is the cultural manifestation of the spiritual impulse.
		Just like French is the linguistic, you know, the cultural manifestation of one's linguistic impulse.
		Or English or German or Russian.
		The same as Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Taoism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How would the world, how would Matthew Alper's world, a perfect world, be different?
		If there was no belief in anything beyond, if we all knew that it was dirt time at death, how would the world be different?
		Would it be a better world?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a very powerful question.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		And at one point, I had a serious moral dilemma over whether it would be the right thing to write a book like this because what might be the damage I could be doing to those people who need, who rely on their beliefs, even people like me, you've done me damage in a way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or, no, let me rephrase that.
		You've challenged me intellectually to the point where I've been compelled to bring you back on the air.
		So, again and again.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Well, anything that gets me back on works for me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But there are others, and surely you're going to have a dramatic effect on many of them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So as you said, you must have had a bit of a struggle with yourself, all other issues aside about the impact of your book.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Well, I believe that what could be done is that we could maximize on this impulse's more productive aspects, like a sense of brotherhood, a sense of actually even just the euphoria.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Why?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why would there be any sense of...
		The hell with brotherhood.
		We're here until we're dirt.
		Get all you can.
		Grab.
unidentified		No, no, no, no.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		That's absolutely not the message.
		Because, I mean, it comes down to, you could look at it instead of from a biblical or divine sense, you can look at it from a selfish sense.
		We are a social organism.
		If each of the parts of that organism are operating only for itself, the organism as a whole will fall.
		And that includes ourselves.
		So in a sense, by being selfish, by acting on your own most primitive impulses, you're actually doing yourself harm.
		Because, I mean, you know, the old saying, what goes around comes around.
		If we had a society of everybody, basically, what would be considered anarchy, nobody wins.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but what goes around comes around is really based on a faith in something beyond.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Well, I wasn't really saying it as if, like, you know, there's any meaning behind it, but really just that if you hurt another, not because it's fated, not because you're being punished, but just because the way we are made as a social organism, we have to operate as a whole.
		You know, united, we stand, divided, we fall.
		We are an organism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But wouldn't there arguably be more people who would say, why should I work?
		Why should I care about anything society says I should care about?
		Why shouldn't I rob a bank or do something else?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		You'll get ahead because you'll be shot in the head and they'll be showing your bloody body on television on Fox News an hour later.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's why.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, not everybody who robs banks, about 80%, I think, get caught.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe even a little better.
		But why not conclude, take your best shot.
		It's dirt to dirt.
		So what's the difference?
		A few years here and there.
		I'm going to live the high life.
		I'm going to hit a bank, take a lot of money, and go live the high life.
		And there will be no repercussion because I'm going to be dirt.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Well, there won't be eternal repercussion, no.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, again, it's part of the reason that this impulse was planted in us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So have you ever thought about robbing a bank or doing something equally...
		That's the problem.
		Have you ever considered anything really nefarious based on what you believe?
unidentified		I think, you know, everybody, like, I couldn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I could have driven a truck through that pause.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I have to think about these things.
		They're very good questions.
		So I think, like anybody, you know, I've had fantasies like, you know, that son of a gun, I could have killed him, you know, when you think of blowing someone up.
		And it wasn't because I felt like, well, hey, you know, there's no God, so why not blow him up?
		And I guess, A, because I've decided that it brings me the most joy as an individual to spread the least harm, I suppose.
		So, you know, you deal with your frustration and you try and adopt the philosophy, you know, thou shalt not blow up thy neighbor.
		And it's not because you think you'll be punished in the eternal afterlife, but just because it makes for a nicer place to live in when everyone's not blowing everyone up.
		And that's basically it.
		You could call it even selfish.
		But I know that if I acted on my primitive impulses and so did my neighbors, none of us would survive.
		And it would be a wicked and painful and insufferable world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the tribal instinct, really, right?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Mm-hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I sure wish I could shoot more holes in all this.
		I tell you what, after the top of the hour here, why don't we open the telephone lines and see what we get?
		Remember, nobody quotes the Bible here but me.
		That's art's law.
		Hold on, Matthew, and we'll continue with this.
		You've got to admit, this is very challenging.
		It's called The God Part of the Brain, Amazon.com and nationwide now in bookstores by Matthew Alper.
		I'm Art Bell, and this is a provocative Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from February 10th, 2000.
		Strange words, desire, make foolish people I I never dreamed that I'd need somebody like you.
		I never dreamed that I'd need somebody like you.
		No, I don't want to fall in love.
		No, I don't want to fall in love with you.
		With you.
		Living life in peace, you too.
		You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
		I hope someday you'll join us, and the world will be
		now we're all It's mad and all I wonder if you can No need to breathe A brother,
		a man Imagine all the people carrying all the world You're listening to Arch Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks, tonight an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from February 10th, 2000.
		maybe he was just a little ahead of his time and So, actually, I think it's back a little bit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me just come back just a little bit.
		Where was it?
		Okay, let's come back like this.
unidentified		I think this should do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know religion too Yeah, nothing to kill or die for, and no religion, too.
		I wonder what you think John Lennon was singing about.
		Does that song resonate with you, Matthew?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, sure.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		I guess it was part of his paradise, a place with no religion, another reason for people to discriminate against one another, to kill one another, etc.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here's Arthur from Cambridge, Massachusetts, who asks, before we go to the volunteer, does Mr. Albert believe that because a part of the brain affects our perception of space and time, that space and time does not exist?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		As we know, they exist as relative terms.
		I mean, this is what 20th century physics has been telling us, that something we took for granted as an absolute is really not an absolute.
		It's a human perception, and it's relative to our perception of reality and not indicative of anything absolute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then I would imagine you suspect Ultimately, travel to distant galaxies, even time travel, might be possible.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		I don't think I said that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you sort of did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You said that our conventional perceptions of space and time are being challenged.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Right.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		That doesn't mean that we can have time machines that send us into other, you know, why not?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why not?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If our perception of space and time is not accurate.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Because it's just our perception.
		That doesn't mean that we can actually take our molecular makeup and somehow place it in a different time.
		Is it a possibility?
		Maybe in some absolute form that other times are existing in correspondence with this present time as we perceive it.
		Can our present selves be transported into those other times?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That I doubt.
		Well, I'm a skeptical.
		Very, very reputable theoretical physicists think that it can be done eventually with enough power.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		I mean, I would say that's something that if one asked me, I would speculate that it will never happen.
		And if humankind is even around for another 100,000 years with technology advancing at the rate that it is, I don't believe that we will ever achieve time travel.
		But they, you know, I'm the skeptic.
		Show me.
		And I've yet to see formulas or acknowledged scientists who've produced formulas and or machines that are indicative of it as a possibility.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But even the skeptic, the non-believer, when he encounters the big-breasted, red-eyed woman, wouldn't sign.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, then I wouldn't sign because I'd be a believer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's it.
		All right.
		First time calling online, you are on the air with Matthew Alper.
unidentified		Hi, Ark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, where are you?
unidentified		I'm calling from L.A. L.A. All right.
		Art, I'm a big fan of yours.
		And Matthew, I own your book, and I respect your intellect.
		It was a very good book.
		My question to you is, did you ever consider what would happen if we all started to prescribe to this view of reality, which it seems to be, in my opinion?
		I am an atheist, and I just wondered if we didn't use the God part of the mind, it would diminish.
		This capacity in our brain would diminish.
		And would that cause, what kind of ramifications, psychologically, could that cause?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Well, just by not using it doesn't mean that it's going to go away.
		That would be considered Lamarckian biology, the belief that you can acquire traits through your own behavior.
		But if we don't use it, that's not going to weed it out for natural selection.
		If we really wanted to weed it out through natural selection, we basically have to take those who are the most religious and kill them.
		And then they won't pass on their genes, which will produce an overdeveloped spiritual function in their children, et cetera, et cetera.
		So, which of course I'm not suggesting, but in regard to if we stop praying, will our children stop praying?
		Not necessarily.
		They'll still have that impulse.
		It's like if I don't listen to music and I have a child, will he grow up saying, you know, yeah, I have no interest in music?
		Not necessarily.
		He might end up being a great composer.
		You can't suppress your genes.
		You can suppress your behavior, but you can't suppress your genes.
unidentified		A hypothetical example would be if it's led to depression, that could theoretically perhaps lead to less procreation.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, again, this is what Art and I were discussing before, which is what are the ramifications of offering a theory like this, of putting a bug like this in people's heads.
		What is its destructive potential?
		I open the book.
		The opening quote in the book is, great is the truth and mighty above all things.
		And it's actually a quote.
		It's a scripture.
		It's a scripture from the Apocrypha, which were the books of the New Testament that were banished.
		They were basically taken out of the Bible, and they're therefore called apocryphal, meaning false, but they were once part of the Bible.
		And I borrowed that for the reason that it was stricken from the Bible.
		I thought that that was sort of poetic.
		As well as that's the philosophy I've decided to ascribe to, that if it's true that there is no God, if it's true there's no spiritual reality, that it's the way we've been wired by natural selection, by nature, what I call nature's white lie, my feeling is that the truth is more powerful than anything, and we have to embrace the truth.
		And just like as much as we can say with any white lie, like would we rather live in ignorant bliss or would we rather be knowing creatures?
		And again, I subscribe to the philosophy, know thyself.
		The greatest power is in knowledge and wisdom.
		And in knowing, even if it's a painful truth, it's to our best advantage to know nonetheless.
		And then to decide, what do we want to do with this?
unidentified		Yes, I agree.
unidentified		Know where we stand, know the reality of our own situation.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		And then we can choose.
		Maybe we'll decide, hey, we know there's an impulse and there might not be a God, but let's pray to him because it makes us feel good.
		Maybe we'll become more religious.
		I don't know.
unidentified		But I think knowing that it may make us value life even more.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		It could do a number of things.
		And I guess I'm willing to take the chance because I believe that it's true.
unidentified		Right.
		You believe in the truth.
		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you very much for the call.
		Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Matthew Alper and Art Bell.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Before I challenge Mr. Alper on his religious faith, I'd like to say something to you, Art.
		You played that song by John Lennon, and you said, is he ahead of his time?
		Well, all these ideas and that were in the Communist Manifesto 150 years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know that's what they said, but you don't honestly believe that he was singing about communism, do you?
unidentified		No, I don't.
		I just said that he's not ahead of his time.
		Those ideas have been around since the Communist Manifesto.
		And they're rapidly coming into the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what everybody said about Lenin at the time when he sang that song.
		It sounds like it.
		But maybe that isn't what he was singing about.
unidentified		He was putting it in poetic terms, that's all.
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've got to imagine that he was singing about what Matthew Alper is talking about.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		He was talking about the virtues of Stalinism.
unidentified		He was singing about what he wanted, you know, and that's exactly what Marx wanted.
unidentified		But may I ask, I heard you mention natural selection, so I take it that you accept random evolution, Darwinism, in other words.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I'm a strict Darwinist.
unidentified		Are you aware of the many credentialed scientists who are attacking Darwinism on scientific ground?
		For instance, Dembski and Michael Denton and particularly Michael Behe.
		Have you read those books?
		Darwin's Black Box, have you registered?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		There are so many scientists out there whose ideas are adulterated by their spiritual function.
		As a matter of fact, while we took the last commercial break, a friend of mine faxed me a letter showing me an article from Scientific American which said that of 90% of scientists that were polled, 90% were shown to believe in a higher power, 10% were atheists.
		Which in the article it said reflected basically the standard of any human population.
unidentified		Well, that's true, but I asked you do you believe that Michael Behe wrote that book on religious grounds?
		Actually, it's very scientific and factual.
		Have you read it, sir?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		One man's book does not compare.
		Have I read it?
		People have discussed it with me before.
		There are so many, there are libraries full, our entire science at this point, from cloning to genetic therapy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Time, time, time, time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Caller, what is it in that book that would stupefy my guests?
unidentified		Oh, I don't think he would change his mind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know, but you read the book.
		He didn't.
		Give us a concept from the book that would argue with Matthew's concept.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Art.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		You're much more reasonable than I am.
unidentified		Well, the idea of irreducible complexity.
unidentified		Can I have 10 minutes?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		That's an argument of faith that the world is so complex that it can't be reduced.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		No, that's not it.
unidentified		That's not it.
		Certain functions of a biological entity need certain, like two or three at least, or maybe a thousand functioning things at one time to function, and therefore they could not have evolved.
		Each one of those things could not have evolved separately.
		That's the concept.
		Please, anybody on the air who wants to really get into this, read Darwin's black box.
		Don't listen to this man.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, how about both?
		I think this man makes a lot of sense.
		And I, for one, don't reject the concept that the thing that we regard as a miracle of complexity all about us and within us, in fact, is not a product of evolution.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		That's the argument against it.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		That's one of the advanced arguments these days that how could we, you know, how could this all be ascribed to some process?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it seems like magic to us, but it may have taken billions of years to look that way.
unidentified		That's right.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Matthew Alper.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Oh, that must be me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's you, all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in the northwoods of Wisconsin.
		All right.
		Well, I wanted to kind of shoot a little story here.
		One of our astronauts had a friend who was an atheist, and he had him over one day, and he was in one of his dens, and this guy had made a mock-up model of the universe in his den.
		And the guy said, oh, hey, that's pretty good.
		I like that.
		Did you make that?
		The astronaut says, no, I didn't make that.
		And he says, well, who made it?
		He says, well, nobody did.
		He says, well, no, wait a minute.
		I can see it right here.
		What do you mean nobody did?
		Well, nobody did.
		It's just there.
		And so the guy says, well, no, this doesn't make any sense to me.
		He says, well, hey, you choose to not believe in God's universe and God created it.
		So it's the same thing.
		Essentially.
		And God gave everybody the freedom of choice to find him.
		And that's why we have so many different religions.
		It's because you have the choice.
		Whether you don't or whether you do or whether you believe in a stick or whatever it is.
		And when it comes down to the end, then that's when it really matters.
		What you got.
		What do you got?
		What are you going to have when you leave, buddy?
		What do you got to live for right now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What are you going to have when you leave?
unidentified		Yeah.
		What do you got?
		You don't have nothing to go for.
		You're just here.
		You're nobody.
		You are a piece of dust.
		You're dust because you got no God.
		Matthew?
		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're not arguing with him.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Because I am a piece of dust.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		What am I going to say?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Caller?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you done?
unidentified		No, well, hey, I could talk with this guy probably all night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So far, he's agreeing with you.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, wow.
unidentified		Hey, imagine that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I dude, imagine that.
		All right.
		Thank you very much.
		All right.
		Look, I've just checked on Amazon.com.
		The God Part of the Brain on Amazon.com, you know they're selling your book for $11.95?
unidentified		Mm-hmm.
unidentified		Shea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Cheap, cheap, cheap.
		And you know what else?
		It's got a solid five-star review.
		One, two, three, four, five, five stars.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know.
		I'm very pleased.
		Everybody who writes in, I'm shooting a perfect five.
		Yeah, it's not even a four and a half in a minute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's amazing.
		Welcome to the Rockies.
		You're on the air with Matthew Alper.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hello, Art.
		Hello, Matthew.
		Hello.
		This is Rob, Central Oregon, listening on KNBD.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I had a question and a comment if I could.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
unidentified		Okay.
		Uh the question is God part of the brain who programmed that the the early civilizations which had no instructions.
		I understand organized religion, but the early civilizations had none.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how about this ear?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Who who programmed the people to dance around and worship the sun, you know, before Jesus came?
unidentified		I don't know.
unidentified		I have no idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe Matthew does.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		It's the same force that programmed us to believe in Jesus.
		It's the same impulse.
		It's just been matter and impulse over and over in a number of variations.
		Jesus is just one of them.
unidentified		Okay.
		My comment would be I think you're very hurt and lonely, ma'am.
		I think God didn't deliver on something that you wanted.
		And besides writing the book and making some ducats there.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so let me be his angry son, and perhaps this will provoke him to show his face.
unidentified		I think that's what you're testing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right, directly come back at him.
		Is in fact that the case?
		Were you in some way horribly hurt by a death or by something that made you deny God, Matthew?
		Did that happen to you?
unidentified		Tell the truth.
unidentified		And Mike, I'll tell you what.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Don't even tell me right now.
		Just hold on to that until after the break.
		And remember, think about that great big-breasted woman with glowing red eyes.
		I like eyes.
		Temptation eyes.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks, tonight and encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from February 10th, 2000.
		She'll go on with me.
		She'll be so inviting.
		I want her all for myself.
		Oh, temptation eyes.
		You're feeling through my mind, my mind.
		Oh, temptation eyes.
		You gotta love me.
		You gotta love me tonight.
		You love me, baby, yeah.
		You gotta love me.
		Oh, I'm about to just the game, but just the same.
		My head is spinning.
		I'm afraid to keep me on her side.
		Just a fight.
		Never ending tonight with me She'll be so exciting I want to be here You'd think that people would have had it up a silly love song.
		So look around me and I see it song.
		Some people wanna fill the world with silly love songs.
		But what's wrong with that?
		I'd like to know.
		Cause here I go again.
		I love you.
		I love you.
		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time tonight, featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from February 10th, 2000.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, everybody.
		Matthew Alper is here, and he has a book that you really should read.
		It's called The God Part of the Brain.
		And no matter what your faith or lack of it or strength of it, it should not be challenged by logic, should it?
		Or is it?
		I think that anybody out there who would shy away from this book, who would shy away from this concept intellectually, I don't know.
		They need to grow a little.
		That's just my opinion, and it's probably going to get me in a lot of trouble, but that's all right, too.
		There was, just before I go to the break, and I do have to go to the break, but there was a very important caller I thought on the line before the break who asked Matthew if there was something that had happened in his life, something really terrible that made him suddenly deny God.
		And there was a pause long enough to drive a smuggled African truck through.
		And so let me come back to you, Matthew, and ask you about that now.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Well, to be honest, I actually led a very cushy and privileged childhood and adolescence and was very fortunate in that I had a good family and a supportive family and good parents and a good younger sister.
		And really nothing tragic happened to me.
		I would say the most tragic thing for me was the realization that I'm mortal, that the party will one day end was devastating to me.
		And I said, I'm getting to the bottom of this.
		I want to find out, is there transcendence in the world?
		Is there a spiritual reality?
		Is there a God or isn't there?
		Am I mortal or am I immortal?
		That to me became the ultimate question.
		I mean, I figured, why should I concern myself with the next 40, 50, 60 odd years with my eternity left unanswered before me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's the answer, and here's the break.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The End All right, Matthew, I have a friend who is a doctor, a man of science, And he's written a fact that I want to read to you, all right?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, here it comes.
		From my perspective, I would propose that we are wired to worship.
		Whether it is God, an entertainment celebrity, a sports figure, an idol, and so forth, our neurophysiology predicates and potentiates this process of adoration.
		In other words, atheists still engage in this, but it is generally expressed in a secular manner.
		The global dominance of the concept of God, in quotes, I believe, reflects in part the commonly shared human need for answers to questions for which we can find no other explanation.
		However, this in no way negates the existence of the soul, of God, of ETs, or anything else that we cannot measure with our three-dimensional yardstick.
		Absence of evidence is not evidence for absence.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Is that the end of the letter?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay, this is true.
		This is proof.
		I mean, I cannot say with 100% certainty that there is no God.
		All I can say is that this points to the possibility that one might not exist, and it's really just our programming that makes us believe in one.
		However, I also believe that the burden of proof should be in proving that something does exist, not in that it doesn't, which is an absurdity.
		Someone could tell me right now, prove that invisible three-headed unicorns don't exist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, I lied to you.
		It's not quite the end of the letter.
		In parentheses, at the bottom, it says, he has a stimulating premise.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Ah.
unidentified		I've been thrown a crumb.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air with Matthew Crum Alpert.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hi.
		I'm a little bit nervous here, so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, become unnervous.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Get close to your phone and yell at us.
unidentified		Okay, I'm going to yell at you.
		That's good.
		You issued a challenge to us, faithful.
		So I'm going to ask Matthew, and I think there's a big hole in your argument.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		That hole is surrounding each and every one of us, including you, Ertz, and me and Matthew, is order.
unidentified		Now, in order for there to be order, it has to be ordered.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, first of all, you're presuming order.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		What you construe as order is another person's, you know, madness.
unidentified		Well, not necessarily, and I can prove this by a simple example.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Please do so.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		Art, are you wearing shoes?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I asked an ordered question and I received an ordered response.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		Well, we're programmed in a very organized way meant to make us survivable.
		And actually, there even is an order to the universe, because yes, the universe does seem to follow.
		All matter and energy do seem to follow these very particular laws called the laws of thermodynamics.
		They're the laws of nature.
		Does that necessarily imply, however, that there's some kind of conscious force out there that's guiding all of this?
		You're presuming that part.
unidentified		I asked a spontaneous question and received a spontaneous answer.
		Both were ordered.
		There's no way that Mr. Bell could have presumed that I was going to ask if he was wearing shoes.
		And yet he did answer.
		You see what I'm saying?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but I don't think what you're saying represents proof of God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I was going to say the same thing.
		Yes, it's logical that I would be wearing shoes.
		Probable I would be wearing shoes.
		the fact that I that you you asked me that question and I responded that I indeed was what does that prove well it just it No.
unidentified		Well, it kind of does.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kind of does.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Relative order.
		Between humans, we can communicate, yes.
		And we can understand one another.
		But again, does it presume that there's a conscious creator out there that made us that way?
unidentified		No.
		Well, it presumes that we have intelligence.
		And by the fact that we are here, indeed.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Again, these are all presumptions.
unidentified		We are here.
unidentified		It isn't a presumption.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Bring them on down.
unidentified		Yeah, God.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		And we'll talk this.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		In the meantime, these are just presumptions.
unidentified		Pardon me?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		These are just presumptions you're making until that time.
		Until you provide evidence that there is a God, not through some secondary means that, well, there's order and therefore there must be an orderer.
		That's called the teleological argument of God, and I don't subscribe to it.
		That there must be, you know, that if there's organization in the universe, there must be an ultimate conscious organizer.
		Perhaps it's just the laws of nature, and we can't let go of the fact that maybe there is no protective force out there.
		There is no spiritual father looking over us.
unidentified		If there was no spiritual father looking over us, or suffer and die, I think we do that anyway.
unidentified		well okay let him finish if there was no spiritual father overlooking But there is periodically great chaos on Earth, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		People hack each other to death with machetes.
		They fight and kill in the name of their particular God.
		There's chaos all the time.
unidentified		This is true.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		There's volcanic eruptions and earthquakes and typhoons.
unidentified		That particular anarchy is caused by Anne himself.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		And do we create typhoons?
unidentified		No.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Do we create plagues?
unidentified		Yes.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Do we create death and sickness?
unidentified		We probably add a great deal to that.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		We have no say in death.
		We could be the most peaceful creatures that exist in the universe and we're all going to die.
		So if you want to call that order, so be it.
		Well, these are all conventions.
		They're not indicative of a proof of a higher power.
unidentified		Well, just the fact that we all die means that it is ordered.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		All right, so you could say all chaos is ordered, too.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		I mean, now we're just playing semantics.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we are.
		You know, plus, I had a doctor on the other night, the leading longevity physician in the world, Dr. Klatz.
		And he said, look, you manage to live for another 30 or 40 years, and there is some great possibility that we will stop, even reverse, the aging process.
		That's how close we're getting.
unidentified		I agree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So if that should occur, then where is the order?
		In death.
		Just a thought.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Matthew Alper.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Yes, hello, am I on?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		Okay.
		Yeah, I've got a couple of observations.
		It's curious, though, that when we're speaking about theists here, that we're looking at them as presumptive and as imposing assumptions upon the universe.
		But the reality is that everybody does that.
		And your guest this evening also has a metaphysical naturalism that he's presuming and casting upon all of the evidences and casting upon all of his research and casting upon all of the conversations that are going on right now.
		He has no way to prove his metaphysical positions and distinctives.
		He might talk about the inferential method.
		He might talk about the empirical method.
		But the fact is that even if you look at the empirical method itself, the empirical method itself is not able to prove itself because it's a metaphysical construct.
		The fact is we all approach life, we approach relationships, we approach our research and our studies presupposing things about the universe.
		And I would argue that the reality of God is rational knowledge and that all human beings possess that rational knowledge.
		Now the problem comes when we think about human sin.
		And the biblical view of this is that human beings, in their ambition and in their autonomy in paradise, sought to arrest something from the Creator that wasn't theirs.
		They sought knowledge outside of the Creator and began to transpose that onto their own beings.
		When they did that, they began to think outside of the laws and outside of the ethics that God had given them.
		And so what has happened now is that we have an arrogant and sinful and repressive nature.
		We don't want to fess up to the fact that we're sinners.
		We live this doctrine of autonomy.
		We cast contempt upon the Creator and upon God when deep down in our heart we know he exists.
		But in our bitterness and in our anguish of heart and in our anger over death and our anger over broken relationships, we tend to squash him and to put him under our feet because we don't want to look at him.
		And another thing, too, is it's really interesting.
		I mean, we're so finite and so small, just particles in the grand scheme of things.
		And to impose a naturalistic metaphysic upon the entire universe when we can't even see behind us when we're walking, when we lay down at night and we fall asleep and we're unconscious and we have to lock our doors, we're so limited and we have to understand those limitations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think, though, Matthew is arguing there is not a grand scheme of things.
unidentified		Except for his naturalistic metaphysic, which makes sense of everything.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		It is ultimate to him.
		And he is casting that naturalistic metaphysic on all things.
		He's making sense of the universe, of man, of core assumptions, of all human beings, of the doctrine of man.
		He's making sense of everything according to that naturalistic metaphysic that he's going to be able to say.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me tell you, it's that naturalistic metaphysics you speak of, which provided us with these telephones that are allowing us to communicate, and the light that's lighting your home right now and heating it, and the science that provides you with health care, and all of these things that you're calling this metaphysic is actually not even a metaphysic.
		It's a very tangible thing.
		And if you want to know what I have faith in, I have faith that when I flip my light switch that the lights are going to go on.
		It's not a metaphysic.
		It's a physical reality.
		And the fact that the same methodology that brought me electricity and computers and space shuttles, et cetera, has provided me with brain scans that are showing that there are parts of the brain receptive to religious language and that there are parts of the brain that have stimulated, which will fill us with a sense of the presence of God.
		It's that same methodology, and it's not a metaphysic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it's the same great unseen power that got us through Y2K.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So when you throw your switch, it still goes on, Matthew.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		Well, the fact of the matter is that personality does not flow from impersonality, and creative ability does not flow from uncreative ability.
		That the fact that we can plumb the depths of what exists is a direct byproduct of the fact that we've been made very intelligent creatures by an intelligent creator.
		It almost seems to fly in the face of what you're saying.
		And the fact is every human being has a presupposition about the universe.
		We all presuppose it.
		And you do that as well.
		And I can make sense for every one of your arguments that there, oh, we can talk about science and we can talk about technology and we can talk about the development of whatever, of electricity and this and that and the other thing.
		The fact is that we can do these things because we're creative.
		We can do these things because we have a personality.
		We have intelligence because we've been given personality by the person who is God.
		We've been given intelligence by intelligent creator, and we can do these things because he blesses us with the ability to pursue to advance.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Again, that's your paradigm, and you're very articulate in expressing it.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		It's just that I don't know if you're expressing anything.
unidentified		Yeah, well, I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why is it not possible, Caller, that all of the things that you just named, we are able to do because we have evolved from the original muck and now have the creative brains that you're articulating so well?
unidentified		Well, you know, then I would argue then that if evolution is true, if biological evolution is true, then epistemological evolution is also true.
		That is, that our knowledge is constantly changing.
		Now, if that is the case, we have no metaphysical basis for making any value judgments on anything because our intellectual content is constantly morphing.
		How can we possibly make sense of anything?
		A hundred years down the road, this whole conversation is irrelevant.
		Truth is laid waste in the whole process of things.
		It doesn't make any sense.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Give this man a pulpit.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		He's good at saying it, but I don't know what he's saying.
unidentified		Well, the fact is, it's very simple.
unidentified		If the doctrine of evolution is true and it impacts my intelligence and it impacts ethics and it impacts reason, then the fact is that the stuff that we're discussing in this very moment is going to be irrelevant and outdated and relative to this particular time.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Only for an outdated species.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Otherwise, chances are our wiring will still pretty much be the same, and our sense of ethics will be the same as it always has.
unidentified		Well, you don't have a metaphysical basis for ethics.
unidentified		How do you make sense of ethics?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Biologically.
unidentified		How does an ethic of value like don't kill your neighbor and don't steal from your neighbor and don't commit adultery with your neighbor's wife, how do you ground that in chemical surges and firing synapses?
unidentified		That doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Well, it hasn't made any sense yet to you because you have not read the guilt and morality function in my book, in which I discussed how, as a social organism, it became necessary for our species to be able to identify those actions which were destructive to the group as a whole, as well as to be able to identify and discern those actions which are destructive to the whole.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In a very elegant way, you just really said, asked him the same question I did earlier.
		Then why would we not have a mad max world?
		Indeed.
unidentified		And he's making so many assumptions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But the answer to that is a pretty good one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is that there has to be some order, some ethical behavior for the survival of the species.
unidentified		Right.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		In my view, in my paradigm, we're wired for that too.
		We're a biological animal.
		We're made in our physiology.
		And our physiology, fortunately for us, is programmed in order, not anarchy.
		We cooperate with one another.
		And what you're calling good and evil, these absolutes that come from a God, I'm suggesting are just the ways we discern one another's behavior.
		We promote that which we call good, and we condemn that which we call bad.
		Every culture from the beginning of our species has broken all action into what they call either good or bad behavior, and in a spiritual context, what we call good or evil.
		And it's, again, the way we're wired.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For one of the most primal of all reasons, callers, survival.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		Survival.
unidentified		Why is survival a tangible concept?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		It is a tangible.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		It's tangible insofar as the existence of organic matter.
unidentified		Are ethics material or immaterial?
unidentified		Non-corporeal or corporeal?
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Right, I got it.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Material, corporeal.
unidentified		Ethics are material.
		If ethics are material and they are just chemicals flowing, then everything is indeed relative.
		And that means that your concepts are relative as well.
		And they're confined to you.
		And they don't have any ultimate meaning for the rest of us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night, Matthew.
matthew alper ▲ ● ▼		Good night, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's it, folks.
		You've got to find it intellectually challenging.
		And in my opinion, you've got to challenge yourself to the degree that you'll get the book and read it and consider it.
		And then, with all your faith intact, reject it if you will.
		But tonight's show should have challenged you to the point of wanting to read the book.
		With that said, that's it for me this week from the High Desert.
		I'm Art Bell.

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