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Feb. 15, 2000 - Art Bell

02:41:27

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Larry Dossey - Consciousness and Healing

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	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
	Heartaches, teardrops.
	That was my day yesterday.
	Today will be better.
	Coming up shortly is Dr. Larry Dorsey.
	I'll tell you all about him.
	Dr. Dorsey is a physician of internal medicine.
	Very standard, right?
	Formally with the Dallas Diagnostic Association and former chief of staff of Medical City Dallas Hospital.
	So, very mainstream.
	After graduating with high honors from the University of Texas at Austin, he received his MD degree from Southwestern Medical School in Dallas in 1967.
	Following internship, he served as a battalion surgeon in Vietnam.
	Later completing his residency in internal medicine at the Veterans Administration Hospital and Parkland Hospital in Dallas.
	Remember Parkland?
	Adossi is a past president of the Isthmus Institute of Dallas, an organization dedicated to exploring the possible convergences of science and religious thought.
	He lectures widely in the U.S.
	and abroad.
	In 1988 he delivered the Annual Mahatma Gandhi Memorial Lecture in New Delhi, India.
	The only physician ever invited to do that.
	He's published again and again, as you must do in that position I guess, author of seven books actually, very prolific, including Time, Space Time, and Medicine, Beyond Illness, Recovering the Soul, a scientific and spiritual search, meaning and medicine, healing words, prayer is good medicine, be careful what you pray for, you just might get it, and his most recent Reinventing Medicine.
	Now Reinventing Medicine is an interesting book.
	In this book he offers scientific evidence for the infinite non-local nature of the mind.
	What is that?
	Well.
	In other words, our mind, it is conventionally thought, is totally local.
	In other words, everything that is around us, what we see, what we hear, I suppose our genetic makeup, and our environment, all of that, but only that.
	In this book, he outlines the non-local nature of the mind.
	Suggesting the mind can reach out in space and time beyond the brain and body.
	Pretty unusual view.
	In this view, the mind can insert information into the world, such as in distant healing and prayer.
	And the mind can acquire information from the world, as in remote viewing, premonitions, and dreams.
	That's a lot of conventional background for such a rebel-like view.
	So coming up in a moment, Dr. Larry Dawsey.
	Alright, here from... actually I don't know where he is.
	Dr. Dawsey, welcome to the program.
	Well, it's great to be with you, and I'm in Santa Fe, New Mexico.
	Santa Fe.
	All right, good.
	How's life in Santa Fe tonight?
	It's delightful.
	I can hear the coyotes singing outside my window tonight.
	Oh, we have them here, too.
	They're great, aren't they?
	The little yipping sounds they make?
	Oh, I know.
	It's tremendously... It reminds me tremendously that there's some wilderness that isn't paved over yet.
	Actually, I went into my backyard a few months ago, Doctor, and I was working on my antenna, and I've got one pole out at the far side of my property.
	We're very much in the desert here.
	We're near Death Valley.
	And I went out there late at night, and I was letting the rope out to let my antenna down, because I'm crazy enough to do antenna work at night.
	And all of a sudden, there's this screech, and something jumps the fence, which is really high, right over me.
	Well, if I was going to have a heart attack, that's when I would have had it.
	That was your stress test, huh?
	Yeah, it was.
	It was a coyote.
	I'll be darned.
	And I have never been so scared in my whole life.
	My God, this thing made a screeching sound and jumped me and the fence.
	You know, in Native American lore, the coyote was the trickster.
	So it sounds like you may have had a confrontation with the trickster, right?
	Well, you know, I think I had a confrontation with something that heard me coming and hunkered down.
	You know, they can do that.
	I mean, coyotes, when you see them a lot of times, they're kind of sneaking around.
	And it was just waiting for me to go away, and when it didn't go away, well, all I can say is, I would have had my heart attacked then, so I must have a strong heart.
	Anyway, good to have you on the show now.
	You've got an awfully conventional background in medicine to be coming on the air and talking about the things you're going to talk about tonight.
	Well, I must say that I didn't develop these ideas overnight, and as a matter of fact, I I didn't really want to have anything to do with these things, but sometimes your experiences can be so dramatic that you just can't back down from them.
	If you also keep your mind open and you begin to look around at some of the interesting data in medicine on the nature of consciousness these days, You know, what choice do you have?
	You can try to weenie out of these sorts of things and backpedal, or you can confront these issues.
	I must say, it took me a long time to gather the courage to confront them, but eventually I began to take a hard look at these things.
	Did you, by any chance, catch the show I did last week with Matthew Alper?
	No, I did not.
	Matthew Alper wrote a book called The God Part of the Brain.
	In it, he suggests, and he makes a very powerful argument, that the greatest fear that man has is what?
	Fear of death.
	The greatest fear we have, collectively I guess, is of death.
	And that the brain, our brains, cannot cope with that fear.
	And as a result, through the process of evolution, our brain has developed a portion of it which demands, virtually, wires us to believe in something.
	And it's a very interesting argument, and that that is the only way that we overcome the fear of death, by inventing a creator, inventing an afterlife, inventing life beyond the mere physical that we now experience.
	I'm familiar with that data, Art, and as a matter of fact, there are a few people out there now who are beginning to explore areas of the brain that may mediate What we call spiritual or transcendental experiences.
	Yes.
	But I must say I take a much more outrageous and robust view.
	I do not believe that we can explain away all of our transcendental urges and metaphysical type experiences and spiritual inclinations by simply taunting to what some researchers have called the God spot.
	Yes.
	I think that it may well mediate those kinds of experiences, but there's much more to this than just simply what those receptor sites and chemicals in the brain happen to be doing.
	Are you familiar, you say you are, with the research they're doing now on that part of the brain, which would seem, I've heard rumors, that with the proper stimulation of that part of the brain, people have what they describe as an out-of-body experience, an epiphany, a near-death experience, whatever.
	How much have they really done?
	Is that really true?
	That really is true.
	One of the key players, Art, in this field is Dr. Michael Persinger, who is at Laurentian University in Canada.
	He has developed gadgets that you can put on the head and they deliver a little microburst
	of electromagnetic stimulation to an area in the temporal lobe of the brain, looking
	at your brain from the outside.
	That would be just sort of above one of your ears.
	So they can stimulate this area of the brain and people can have wonderful experiences.
	They can feel as if they are out of the body, that they sometimes have ecstatic experiences
	of union with the Almighty and so on.
	So these researchers take this information and they say, �Aha!� That proves, therefore,
	that all of this is just inside your head.
	It does not necessarily.
	In other words, suppose, let's say it's given.
	They can do this in the lab.
	They can stimulate this and make it happen.
	How do they know the experience is not real?
	You get right to the bottom line.
	They don't.
	They make a huge leap and it goes something like this.
	Their idea is that it's so implausible that there might be something out there That they simply rule out that possibility.
	I think that's highly irrational.
	It would be like saying, well, you know, David Letterman is inside the television set.
	This is silly.
	You know, this is the same strength of the logic that they employ by saying, well, since we can tweak the brain and reproduce these things, that's all there is.
	Well, you know, David Letterman isn't inside the television set.
	That completely overlooks the external source.
	And so these folks with their experiments along these lines overlook the external source in my judgment.
	And I think that there's a lot of evidence out there that you can't explain the operations of consciousness just by saying it's confined locally to the brain.
	Well, I've had one out-of-body experience, Doctor, just one.
	It was incredibly impressive, incredibly fast.
	Lying in a hotel room bed in Paris on vacation when I was away from my normal routine.
	You know, I've had dreams all my life, even weird ones, believe me.
	And so I know what I'm dreaming and I know the difference.
	And what I had, I came out of my body.
	I was up above Paris.
	I didn't really see Paris.
	I knew I was there.
	I just shot up like a rocket.
	I had this feeling of intense There aren't even words.
	Joy.
	Peacefulness.
	It was a stack.
	And I was so shocked and surprised, I banged right into my body.
	That was it.
	Just once.
	I wasn't a volunteer.
	There was no precursor.
	There was no vibration or anything else.
	Boom.
	Just happened.
	Like that.
	And it wasn't a dream.
	There's no question about it.
	Now, sure, this could be an artifact of a living human brain.
	It does not necessarily prove there's any life after this one, but it proved to me that that can happen.
	Now, maybe they can make this happen in the lab, but I don't see how they can possibly escape the conclusion that they simply might be producing a real phenomena, a scientifically repeatable real phenomena that is non-local.
	How do they know it's local?
	It's an assumption.
	It's one of those gratuitous assumptions that simply never gets examined.
	Let me tell you how this operates in the mindset of 99% of researchers in neurophysiology and medicine today.
	the dogma that's received from your professors in medical schools
	makes it unthinkable that there could be any
	activity of consciousness outside the cranium. This is just heresy and blasphemy to propose otherwise.
	And so the assumption is that since there cannot be, because you've
	learned it this way, that we just simply don't look at the evidence suggesting
	otherwise, I know it may sound disrespectful to people who think
	scientists are really smart to talk this way,
	but there are blind spots that are colossal
	in science, and I can't think of a better example than our attempts to understand the origins and destiny of
	consciousness.
	There's simply too much data that doesn't fit.
	And what we're in the process of is trying to piece together, these days, a picture or a model of consciousness that accounts not for just a piece of the data, which these gentlemen have, when they stimulate the brain and it does all of those sorts of things we've been talking about, That's right.
	I hope we can.
	where the consciousness can come back with information and can insert information into
	the world as you were talking about just a moment ago.
	That's right.
	And so what we need is a comprehensive model that doesn't force us to deny our own experience
	such as your experience you just described and also the data from actual experiments
	which I hope we can talk about.
	I hope we can.
	Well, we definitely can.
	All right, our consciousness as we generally describe it depends on space and time having
	certain laws that are repeatable and scientific and time being a linear thing that we can
	We have clocks, we look at it, time passes, we get old, we die, and so forth and so on.
	A linear time scale.
	But in the non-localized area of the mind, this same linear time It isn't the same, is it?
	No, it isn't.
	The experience of it is totally different.
	I suppose the commonest experience that people have of this non-linear, non-local aspect of space and time is during dreams.
	For example, during dreams, there's the sense that things take place.
	I mean, we have dream events, but there's no sense that time is going anywhere.
	This is completely unlike the sense of flowing time that dominates waking experience.
	And this is viewed, of course, as kind of a bogus experience of time, as not real, and so on.
	But there are other areas of the world where people dwell very comfortably with this non-local, non-linear, non-flowing sense of time.
	If you get past the Suez Canal, it's not difficult to, you know, traveling eastward to find culture after culture where they believe that that view of time Is the real one and that the one we experience in our waking life is the illusion.
	Which sort of is like the movie Matrix.
	Right.
	Yes.
	Yes, indeed.
	In other words, we're trouncing about down here and this is not the reality at all.
	That is.
	And we are so very rarely in touch with that other reality.
	Is that about right?
	Yes, that's right.
	And I know that this has been belittled by skeptics and cynics in the rational Western world as being just New Age and flaky and all of that.
	But I must say that you could make a very long list of venerable scientists and philosophers in the West who have believed that we have not yet finished with our understanding of time.
	I think this is vastly misunderstood.
	Most people think that science has figured out time and that we know Without any doubt that it's linear, that it flows, and that it goes in one direction.
	That's a fallacy.
	One of my favorite quotations about this came from the Nobel Prize winning physicist Richard Feynman, who once, when he was asked, what is time?
	And he said, don't ask me.
	He said, it's too damn difficult.
	Is that what he said?
	Yeah, this is in a moment of brazen honesty.
	And so Feynman told it like it was.
	This is a huge debate in physics these days.
	You know, there are these titanic arguments and struggles about what time is.
	And one of my favorite commentaries on this subject is the physicist Paul Davies, who writes books for laypeople about the new physics.
	And Davies is quick to say in one of his books called Space and Time in the Modern Universe that there has never been an experiment In the entire history of modern science that shows that time flows.
	That's the fact of the matter.
	But yet we bring into these discussions of time all of these assumptions about time being linear and that just being the way it is.
	Yet in Fort Collins, Colorado, we have an atomic clock that keeps a very, very accurate record, I guess, of how time, in fact, is passing in a very linear fashion right down to the billions of the second
	they've got that so i mean there is there really is there really is all linear
	time and it's hard to imagine a hold on doctor were the bottom of the air will
	come right back to this on marshall and this is close to close to the end of doctor larry dawson
	the the
	Did the guy with green hair fall for you?
	ื I've tried to wait for you, but you have lost your mind.
	Whatever happened to our love?
	I wish I understood.
	I wish I understood It used to be so nice, it used to be so good
	So when you hear me darling, can you hear me?
	It's so nice When you hear me darling, can you hear me? It's so nice
	Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nigh from Western Varanasi at 1-800-3-4.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	Call 1-800-825-5033.
	First-time callers may rechart at 1-775-727-1222.
	And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
	To rechart on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
	It certainly is.
	My guest is Dr. Larry Dossey.
	And he was a very, very mainstream doctor.
	Chief of Staff, Medical Center Dallas, Internal Medicine, that kind of thing.
	But that's not what he's here to talk about tonight.
	It's going to be a very interesting show and you're going to want to listen very carefully.
	Back now to Dr. Larry...
	Gossy, uh, Murray.
	Here we are again, Doctor.
	You said there was evidence.
	Evidence for Non-local activity... I don't want to say of our brains, because... We were talking about time, and you quoted somebody who said, don't ask me about that.
	That's right.
	Well, when we talk about our brain, and our consciousness, and our soul, would that elicit the same kind of answer?
	Yeah, I think so.
	My favorite term is consciousness.
	But, you know, we don't have a good vocabulary for what it is we're talking about, because all of the terms have been so loaded down with erroneous baggage through the decades that they really are misleading when they pop out of our mouth.
	But I still prefer consciousness to just about any other term.
	The people working on artificial intelligence tell me that consciousness is measured by self-awareness.
	Is that too simplistic?
	That would fit the requirement for some people in that area.
	There are others, however, who would simply say that consciousness is the equivalent to just simple computation.
	When something gets good enough at calculating, then it looks like it's consciousness.
	It's conscious, so you might as well declare it.
	So self-awareness doesn't come into that sort of perspective.
	I think the point is that Like with time, there's no agreement about what consciousness is and what requirements there are that would justify you to declare something conscious.
	All right.
	Let's get down to ground stats.
	When we talk about non-local activity of the brain, the mind, or the soul, whatever you want to call it, we're talking about something real.
	Really being able to leave the body, for example.
	Really being able to have precognition.
	We could go rolling through a whole litany of things that seem impossible with what we know conventionally.
	What is the best evidence that these things really are happening?
	The evidence which I really like are those wonderful double-blind, randomized, perspective-controlled
	experiments that medical scientists do to, for example, test the effect of a new medication.
	As it turns out, you can use that same study design art to test the effects of your intentions
	at a distance, your wishes, your thoughts, and what is commonly called prayer.
	And this has actually been done in study after study in the past few years with positive
	results.
	I think there's no way that one can look at this evidence in an even-handed way and easily
	dismiss it.
	Let me give you an example of what this looks like, if I may.
	You may.
	One of the most high-profile studies going on in the country now, looking at these non-local activities of consciousness to make a difference in terms of health outcomes for sick folks, is taking place at Duke Medical Center in Durham, North Carolina.
	Duke is one of the great medical centers, not just in our country, but the world.
	So, if you went through Duke for a heart catheterization or an angioplasty procedure, some invasive heart procedure or operation, let's say, and you went to their VA hospital, which is one of their major teaching hospitals, you might bump into Dr. Mitchell Krukoff, who is the head of cardiovascular medicine there, who is running the study.
	And so if you volunteered for this prayer study, here's what would happen.
	If you were randomized, in other words, assigned, unknown to you by chance, to this so-called intervention group which would receive these prayers, overnight you would be on the receiving end of more prayer than you've probably ever received in your life.
	Dr. Krukoff and his team would solicit prayer for you from prayer groups from around the world, as far away as Nepal.
	There are many different religions that are represented as far as the prayers.
	The bottom line of this randomized double-blind study, in which no one knows who is receiving the prayer and who isn't, the bottom line is that the people receiving these healing intentions or prayer have a 50-100% fewer side effects than people who are just treated ordinarily, conventionally.
	How much of a test has been done?
	How much of a sample has been done?
	There are about 50 to 60 patients who have gone through the program yet, not to show that what they call a P-value is statistically highly significant.
	In other words, you can't explain this away by saying, this just happened according to chance.
	That's interesting.
	And so my point here is that this is big data.
	This is not something you would want to walk away from and just say, This is meaningless.
	This has to do with life and death.
	And this data was presented to the American Heart Association's annual meeting about a year and a half ago and it was received extremely cordially.
	This study, as a matter of fact, is being expanded to five major United States hospitals even now.
	There are many other studies which supplement this and go along with it and replicate these findings.
	So I just don't want people to think that this is just, there's only one study out there where this has been done.
	Alright, at the expense of boring my audience, I've got to relate something to you.
	If you're a casual listener to the program, you may know, if not, well that's fine.
	I conducted, with my audience, in the millions, millions of people out there, about eight experiments, Doctor.
	We began because I had a guest who said, you know, it's possible to concentrate and actually affect a cloud.
	It's called cloud busting.
	You know, you go out and see a wispy little cloud, and you begin concentrating on it.
	And you can punch a hole in it, or dissipate it, or make it bigger, or do whatever you want.
	I thought, silly.
	But that brought on the concept of, well, then why not involve millions of people and just give something a try?
	They were having fires and it was terrible down in Florida, northern Florida, and they were having a drought.
	There was no rain in the forecast.
	I had millions of people concentrate on rain for Florida.
	No forecast of rain.
	Within 24 hours, even sooner, it rained.
	We did the same in Texas.
	We did the same thing up in British Columbia, where they were having fires.
	We then began to concentrate on some people who were ill.
	The people involved said they could feel waves of energy coming at them.
	And one person who should have died didn't die.
	And the other is still, you know, the question mark is still out on him, but we definitely helped him.
	I've seen it happen, doctor.
	I got scared of it.
	I thought, you know, who the hell am I?
	To be directing this kind of power.
	But I've seen it work.
	It's worked, Doctor.
	And so I guess the answer must be millions of minds, or many minds, concentrating on an outcome can have an effect.
	I think what you are doing, Art, is an uncontrolled experiment which has been taken into these clinical situations and managed with excellent methodology.
	Hear, hear.
	I think we're just going to have to take a deep breath in my profession in particular and sort of lighten up and just say, look, we've misunderstood what consciousness is capable of doing.
	Here's the evidence.
	We're not justified any longer in ignoring this, particularly since this can make the difference in life and death in sick people.
	I mean, if this were just a trivial outcome, I suppose that you could make a case that, This is just too difficult.
	I don't want to go there.
	It's too challenging.
	Well, people's lives and health are concerned.
	I think we are obligated ethically and morally to take this on.
	I agree with you, but I started having concerns.
	You know, I was getting email and faxes from people that say things like, oh, there's a horrid hurricane headed for Florida or North Carolina.
	Concentrate on having people change the course of this thing.
	And that's when I stopped, because I thought, I don't know what the hell I'm doing.
	And if I have people concentrate on stopping this hurricane or altering its course, what if I should stop it and the damn thing builds up to be a Category 5 and then comes on shore?
	In other words, I don't know what I'm doing.
	So I was impressed with the experiments, more than you'll ever know, but scared away from continuing them.
	I don't have any hesitation about this.
	As a matter of fact, I share it so much, I wrote a book about this called, Be Careful What You Pray For.
	The plus of that book was to say, listen, there are some great unknowns here.
	We are not smart enough to try to micromanage the universe by our own agendas.
	My contention in that book was that even though we're ignorant and we should really be careful, that doesn't mean we have to give up I rationalize this in this way.
	I think that there's a way to use our intentions and our wishes and our thoughts and our prayers by putting our wishes and thoughts and so on in the hands of a superior wisdom.
	In other words, I think it's probably better to say, well, when it comes to the weather, I have the power to influence it, but I'm not going to try to dictate how the universe ought to behave.
	I'm just going to say, May the best thing happen in this situation.
	May the best outcome prevail.
	Or, when it comes to prayer, I might pray, may thy will be done.
	So, I instigate an outcome, but I don't tell the world what to do.
	I share your hesitation in doing that.
	Then, of course, it begs this question, too, and that is, while I've seen these things happen, I have no question about it, I know they happen, I know it can be done, I don't know How it's being done.
	In other words, is this message or prayer, if you want to call it that, being received by a Creator who is answering in some affirmative manner?
	Or is it simply millions of minds and, as you have pointed out, a power of consciousness that we have that doesn't have anything to do with God, other than the fact that it might be God-given, that we can utilize?
	Or is it intervention This is one of the most hotly debated questions in the area of prayer and intentionality in medicine.
	There are some researchers who are willing to say that this is just a direct mind over matter sort of effect.
	You know what parapsychologists refer to as psychokinesis.
	Others want to go farther and say this is mediated by a superior being, god, goddess, Allah, or some other term.
	I can't imagine a scientific experiment, Art, that would clarify this question.
	So I think we may be in the dark for an awful long time to come before we understand how this is mediated and what variables underlie it.
	If you had a large body of Christian people praying for an outcome, and you had a positive outcome, and then you had a large body of Buddhist people praying for a certain outcome, and you got that outcome, what would that say?
	Well, if I may, let me go back to that experiment at Duke by Dr. Mitchell Krukoff in the cardiac cath lab there in the hospital.
	They've actually They've recruited to be part of that prayer group many religions, and they've done that to prevent certain religions from claiming, if the experiment works, claiming credit for it.
	In other words, they want a big mix.
	They want to prevent exactly what you just suggested, because already there have been claims made since the experimental evidence for prayer has been coming on board.
	There have been claims made by specific religions that They sort of have a monopoly on this stuff.
	They were the ones who did it.
	That's right.
	And so they intrinsically have developed some turf wars already into Syria.
	And so most of the researchers out there doing this work will bend over backwards to sort of circumvent that sort of thing.
	So I must say, I hope we never see That sort of prayer contest that you just proposed.
	But it's possible.
	It could be done.
	I'll grant you that.
	In other words, the same double-blind testing that's being used now to achieve the results you just talked about could in fact be confined to one specific religion, and then another, and then another, and then another.
	And my bet would be that you would get results in every case.
	And I don't know what that would say... I don't know what that would say to the groups, do you?
	Well, let me just sort of suggest how complicated this really is.
	Back in 1988, the first published prayer study, which utilized a double-blind controlled methodology, was published out of San Francisco General Hospital and the University of California San Francisco School of Medicine by a researcher named Dr. Randolph Byrd.
	Dr. Byrd was a born-again Christian, and he selected and solicited prayer only from born-again Christians in this famous study.
	Well, the thing worked, and so this suggested to people that, boy, born-again Christians really pack the gear.
	If I'm sick, I want them to pray for me, that sort of thing.
	The field developed so that now Buddhists have been recruited.
	Buddhism is not even a theistic religion.
	Buddhists don't pray to a personal god.
	They don't have that concept.
	But Buddhist prayer works just fine.
	So what do you do with this evidence?
	Here you have groups that are at the opposite end of the theological spectrum.
	Both of their prayers work, and so this has caused a lot of Christians a tremendous amount of worry.
	I'm sure it has.
	You know, they don't want to let the heathen prayer onto the radar screen.
	They wouldn't want to see that kind of data published, no.
	That's right.
	And so, I think that there's something deep to the specific religion that's involved, and I think it gets to something that sounds very old-fashioned.
	It amounts to genuineness and love and compassion and deep concern for what it is that you're praying for.
	And I think this supersedes and overrides whatever religion you hook up with.
	Well, in the 1800s, you know, you'd have been put on a rock and they'd have turned the screw until you finally said, it's all a big mistake.
	Yeah, I would have gone up in smoke a long time ago, I'm afraid.
	That's right.
	Did you see the movie Contact?
	Yes, many times.
	Many times.
	Oh good, you're a fan like I am.
	Yes.
	Well, had you been sitting in Jodie Foster's seat and asked if you believe in the God of the Bible, if you could carry that word forth for humanity and put in her position, how would you have answered in any different way than she did?
	I must tell you that I was raised in that kind of I grew up in Central Texas which we call the buckle of the Bible Belt.
	I understand how fundamentalists think.
	That no longer satisfies me.
	I would not have carried that message into deep space.
	My favorite term for a Supreme Being is the Absolute.
	Uncommittal and undescriptive and that it's a turn off for most people in our culture.
	Oh yeah, you'd have been staying home for sure.
	Well, that's for sure.
	Alright, hold on doctor.
	Top of the hour already.
	Dr. Larry Dawsey is my guest.
	And we're talking about, you know, the kind of stuff we talk about here.
	Our minds.
	Our souls.
	Our non-local experiences.
	Prayer, the fact that it really does work.
	But, I guess we're asking how come it works, why it works.
	We'll be back.
	My sweet Lord.
	Mmm, my Lord.
	Mmm, my Lord.
	I really want to see you.
	my lord i really want to see you
	really wanna be with you the air of the cat
	i really wanna be with you i really wanna be with you
	i really wanna be with you To reach Artbel in the Kingdom of Nigh, from west of the
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	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
	Good morning, everybody.
	Dr. Larry Dossi is here, a conventional researcher into the unconventional.
	An interesting and very, very difficult topic from a lot of points of view, and I suppose
	I'm not making it easy with the questions I'm asking.
	We'll get back to Dr. Dossi in a moment.
	Alright, once again, Dr. Larry Dossi, MD.
	He has written so many books, the latest one, Reinventing Medicine, but he's gone down
	a kind of a non-traditional path in looking at consciousness, and really a whole lot more
	than just consciousness, but that's where we've been going so far.
	I've got a fact I would like to read you.
	Doctor, it says, I put an offer in for a vacant condo in San Diego tonight, and later the agent called and said, That by California law, they had to divulge to me that within the past year, someone living there had died there.
	That California law says that such information has to be given if a death occurred in a prospective condo or home within a three-year period.
	Now, they say it was not a violent death.
	Art, would you move into a condo that had a death in it within the past year?
	Would your guest move into a condo where Somebody had died in the past year.
	Or, would the consciousness of the late person remain there as some sort of entity?
	And so that takes us into an interesting area.
	And that is, of course, whether... I mean, on the one hand, we've been discussing things that seem to be products of living brains.
	You know, the effect on the weather, or prayer for a person, and the double-blind studies you've been talking about.
	What about this aspect of consciousness?
	Whether it survives physical death?
	Any thoughts?
	I think that if we were to try to look at the implications of the studies showing that the brain or the consciousness can't act beyond the brain or as in these healing studies, what we see here I think is clear evidence that there is some quality or factor of the mind that can extend Beyond the brain, which is to say that it's more than the brain.
	I think the logic is straight as an arrow here.
	What we're talking about is a quality of consciousness that cannot be restricted to the physical.
	This has all sorts of what I think are fairly wonderful implications for survival of bodily death.
	I must say that it doesn't really concern me personally or professionally what form that takes, and in that sense I don't line up with a lot of people who really want to know if
	their personality carries forward
	that doesn't interest me in the least what i want to know is flatly whether
	there's anything carried over period
	or is this the end and i happen to believe that the implications of these
	studies show that there is some sort of non-local immortal aspect of who we
	are that has no intentions of sounding off at the death of the body but isn't
	there a distinction between non-local
	uh... another words an artifact of an active uh... living brain
	and then what we talk about about broadly when we talk about the
	other side I mean, there may be a leap there that you've got to make.
	Well, for me, I don't struggle with what the other side looks like.
	For example, I'm not concerned about whether the personality is carried over.
	That, for me, is irrelevant.
	I think that if there is a universal wisdom that can provide For continuation of consciousness in some form following death, I will leave it up to that wisdom to take care of the petty details.
	That's basically where my deliberation comes to a screeching halt.
	I want to know if there's a yes or no to the question, does anything persist?
	Is anything carried over?
	Again, just to say, that's where the logic points.
	If there is some quality of our consciousness that can extend beyond the brain and the body, as we see in these double-blind studies, that has wonderful implications for immortality.
	Well, there are all kinds of, as you pursue trying to answer that question about survival of some sort, there are all kinds of really interesting things you run into, like a million... I do a show every now and then about ghosts, and I must tell you, The stories are never ending.
	I know.
	And they're serious, and they're real.
	They're as real as anything you can imagine.
	And that would seem to indicate, that's one area of investigation that you can make that would seem to indicate that there is some sort of survival after physical death.
	And I would emphasize also that people who see ghosts aren't mentally imbalanced.
	I've made quite a study of the data on what we call visitations following the death of a spouse.
	And you know as well as I that the majority of spouses who are left have some sort of contact, a sense of contact with the deceased.
	This may come in the form of simply a sense of presence.
	It may be visual.
	It may be audible.
	It may have to do with a sense of smell.
	But there is no evidence whatsoever that these people have any sort of mental imbalance whatsoever.
	As a matter of fact, a recent survey at the National Opinions Research Center at the University of Chicago found that the experience of having contact with someone who has passed was one of the best criteria for good mental health.
	In other words, this is a predictor of mental soundness in people.
	So a lot of the cynics and skeptics turn this around and say that people who have these experiences are just sort of mild schizophrenics who are hallucinating.
	There's no evidence of that whatsoever.
	Well, that's pretty harsh.
	I wouldn't make it that harsh, but I might say, gee, isn't it possible that, like our discussion about the God part of the brain earlier, a good, healthy person in a situation of deep, severe mourning, like the loss of their mate, That their brain would, as a healthy thing, protect them by having this God part of the brain activate an experience suggesting that person's essence and soul and consciousness is okay.
	Yes.
	I think that's right on target.
	And I think this gets even more interesting.
	You used that word protection.
	I believe that these intimations and premonitions that people can have The so-called non-local mental experiences, I believe that they serve the function of protection.
	May I give you an example of that in action?
	Sure.
	There was a lovely survey that was published in a journal called Pediatric Pulmonology about three or four years ago by researchers in the disease called SIDS, S-I-D-S, Sudden Infant Death Syndrome, where the baby is just found dead in the crib the next morning for no apparent reason.
	So the SIDS researchers asked parents of babies who died from SIDS, did you ever have a premonition or a dream or a very strong hunch that your baby was going to die?
	And 21% of these parents said yes, we knew it, we saw it coming and this was so real to us that we made a big deal out of this with our pediatrician.
	So then the researchers said, well, you know, the parents just get worried like this all the time, and is this just normal for parents?
	So they asked parents of normal babies who had no problem whatsoever, did you ever have this sort of premonition?
	And only 2% of them said yes.
	So you have this huge disparity here.
	And so what happened was when these 21% of parents expressed these fears, these premonitions of impending doom to their baby, to their doctor, In every case, and there was no exception to this, in every case the doctor responded to the premonition with outrage and ridicule, and in no instance were they willing to take any special precautions to monitor these babies to save their life.
	And if they had, if they had had some sort of worldview or an attitude toward consciousness which said, yeah, consciousness can manifest non-locally, outside of the body, outside of the present, then some of those babies would be alive.
	Well, that's a thought.
	Well, I think that there's a real ethical dimension here that we haven't come to terms with.
	What do you give up when you ignore this?
	If you're a physician, how do you put your patients at risk and their children, as in this instance, by ignoring this sort of thing?
	So we see here this ability of consciousness to reach out non-locally and bring back information that does have protective value for us and for those we love.
	So I think you're right to use this term protection.
	Then what does that say about the nature of time?
	If there could be intervention, in other words, if somebody had a premonition and they, who knows, put some kind of medical guard began to monitor the baby's vitals and had alarms set up and all the rest of it because of this premonition and you could save that baby's life, then What does that say about the nature of time itself?
	Does that mean that events in the time stream are malleable and we can change them?
	What it means, in my judgment, is that time, for this factor of the consciousness, is not absolute.
	It's entirely relative.
	It is not linear and unidirectional.
	Time may be absolute and linear for that atomic clock you were describing earlier in the program, but for this aspect of the mind, timelessness, not time, is the premier factor.
	Let me give you an example of how this was made real to me in my practice.
	This way of knowing in which people can acquire information outside the senses and bring it back in ways that help them make smart decisions about their health.
	I had a patient who came into my office one morning and she said, I need your help, I'm scared to death.
	She said, last night I had a dream in which I saw three little white spots on my left ovary.
	She said, I'm afraid that means cancer.
	This woman's examination was normal, so we decided to do a sonogram of her pelvis.
	So I took her back and introduced her to the radiologist.
	She made the mistake of telling him her dream, and he wasn't exactly into dreams, and he ridiculed her.
	But this woman had her revenge because the radiologist was back in my office about 15 minutes later.
	Why is it a ghost?
	I said, what's wrong with you?
	What did you find?
	He said, three little white spots on her left ovary, exactly as she dreamt.
	So here you have a woman who was able to acquire, outside of the reach of the senses, information that could have saved her life.
	As it turned out, these were benign cysts, not cancerous.
	Yes, but it doesn't really matter to the story, does it?
	That's right.
	The story shows how this quality of the mind can serve us, Art, and I think this is Makes really good sense from an evolutionary point of view, because, you know, evolutionary biologists say that if we develop a quality that has survival value, it tends to be internalized genetically and perpetuated down to the species.
	So it may be that this has become part of our genetic packet, this ability to acquire information like this that can serve us well in terms of survival.
	Let me ask you this, Doctor.
	Sure.
	Do you think that the ability that you just talked about that that woman has is evolutionary that
	it's something from our deep past that we've always had this ability and we rarely
	listen to it or do you think that it is something now evolving and becoming stronger
	within homo sapiens? My hunch, and it's it's really bad, it is a hunch, my speculation is that this
	is widespread by now in the human species
	I think that this exists practically in everyone.
	I think that there are different degrees and sensitivities of this, just like there are prodigies in every field.
	I think there are prodigies in non-local knowing, but I think this is extremely widespread.
	I believe that we have driven it off the stage of consciousness.
	We have denied that we have this gift.
	We're threatened by it, and so threatened, for example, We've already mentioned that.
	Back centuries ago, they would have done away with people for being witches and warlocks and so on, who exercised these visions and these ways of knowing.
	What percentage of people today, do you think, of your patients, let's say, who had a dream like that lady's, would pursue it to the degree that she would come to an internist like yourself and then a radiologist and demand that that be done?
	How many people would pursue it that far from a dream?
	Not many.
	That's right.
	Because I think that we have stigmatized this, Art, and we said that this is a silly, irrational way to run your life.
	And look at the downside for the patient.
	In those kids' parents, in every case, they were ridiculed by their physician.
	You know, the surveys show that 75% of patients who merely use alternative therapies refuse to tell their patients they're doing so because they don't want to be hassled.
	So, there are a lot of reasons why people don't own up to this, but my experience since writing this book has been an outpouring of letters, not just from patients about these sorts of experiences.
	Doctors have even begun to open up to me and share experiences.
	Like this, which they've had.
	I'm not surprised.
	Yeah.
	I'm not surprised, because as I said, when I do a show about ghosts, I do very serious shows, and I don't laugh, nor do I berate people in any way.
	I just let them tell their stories, and they inevitably, once it gets going, it just gets better and better and better, and people are all of a sudden freed to be able to tell their stories, and so they do.
	Yeah.
	But most people, otherwise, Not in a million years would they talk to a friend or an acquaintance and relate something like that for fear of being assigned to a rubber room somewhere.
	Well, if it's that difficult for plain folks to open up about this, consider how difficult it is for doctors.
	Oh, you bet.
	Because we've got it drilled into us that that's one of the criteria for schizophrenia.
	We put people on medicine for talking like that.
	But I found that As this information about particularly the intercessory prayer studies where this stuff happens at a distance, and you've got to invoke some other model of consciousness to explain this.
	When doctors see that data, and I have the chance to present this at medical schools around the country, doctors come forward about this.
	And what they need to see is that they can dabble in this and not lose their scientific standing.
	That is so important to doctors.
	And so when they see the data, They think, well maybe I can venture forth in this and still feel good about being an empirical scientist.
	And so what we have now, out of the 125 medical schools in the country, 60 of them have developed courses looking at the kind of data you and I have been discussing.
	hold on one second it is
	the so
	it feels like a great ball
	since my love has passed me I'm so all alone
	I I would bring her back to me.
	But I don't know where she's gone.
	Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nigh.
	From West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	the Rockies 1-800-825-5033. First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222. And the wildcard
	line is open at 1-775-727-1295. To reach out on the toll free international line, call
	your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-825-727-1222.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
	Falling from my eyes, falling from my eyes.
	Not many raindrops around here lately.
	Alright, once again, Dr. Larry Dorsey, that radiologist, how's he doing?
	Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
	It's funny you ask.
	He left the profession, and I lost track of him.
	Really?
	Yes, he began to become very disenchanted with the mechanical way of practicing medicine that's inherent in radiology, so he got so upset that he left the profession, and I'm not sure what he went into.
	Wow. A lot of other physicians, when they encounter, I know I've talked to physicians, for example, who have
	encountered people, a lot of near-deaf experiences.
	And they either seem to embrace them and consider the concept, or just on a regular basis, simply reject them.
	And I get a lot more who just simply reject them.
	Yes, my experience is exactly the same.
	That's one reason why I think that we need more than anything in this field a good theoretical framework which says, look, this is how this could happen.
	And, you know, a lot of the problems for doctors who deny these sorts of things is that they're just simply horribly informed.
	Most of them don't know what the word non-local even means.
	Most of them don't know that there's a major difference between classical Newtonian physics and quantum relativistic physics.
	And so doctors, you know, really need to do some homework before making these confident declarations about what's possible and what isn't possible.
	All right.
	Suppose you were the medical czar.
	In America we like to have czars, you know, drug czars and stuff.
	So if you were the medical czar and you could dictate how much Alternative medicine, traditional medicine, would have to begin to embrace to properly treat patients.
	How much would it be?
	Oh, it would be the vast majority, because I think that much alternative medicine is based upon good preventive principles.
	We don't usually call that alternative medicine, but that really is a solid piece of the alternative medicine puzzle.
	And because I think most disease can be prevented, I would say that The vast majority of medicine ought to take that approach.
	There are people, individuals, who claim to have greater power than others, I hesitate to use the word power, or ability to heal, that one person has the ability to heal another.
	And there are people who make these claims.
	Do you think some of them are valid?
	Yeah, they are.
	But this is a minefield, really, and I think that quackery is alive and well in this field as it is in every other area of medicine.
	I look forward to the day when we develop some practical ways of testing people's abilities.
	I'd even hypothesize that we might one day even have board-certified healers, just like we have board-certified radiologists or interns or surgeons.
	And I think that if we hold ourselves out to be a healer, We ought to be willing to put a towel on the line and prove it and put up or shut up, because if people are sick, we owe them a lot if we hold ourselves out as a healer.
	So I'm not opposed to developing some sort of requirement that tests people who call themselves healers.
	Well, if you can get the kind of results in double-blind tests that you have with prayer, for example, How is that information morally withheld from being introduced into conventional medicine right away?
	I think that there are real moral issues in withholding it.
	As a matter of fact, this is the point I got to in my own professional and personal life when I stumbled into the double blind studies on prayer back in the eighties, which I didn't know existed.
	It became clear to me in a flash that if this was valid science and I wasn't using it, then I had a real problem.
	Because this would be like withholding, for example, an appendectomy from somebody who had appendicitis.
	It might save their life.
	So I went on a search, which I thought was going to be a quick one, but which lasted many years.
	Trying to identify all of the studies in this area, I could get my hands on.
	Many years later, at 131 studies later, I came away thinking there really was something here that had to be applied in medicine.
	So, withholding it, I think, involves us and some real questionable ethics.
	I think the medical schools are beginning to agree.
	Back when I first wrote a book about this in 1993, a book called Healing Words, there were only three medical schools out of 125 in the country that would have anything to do with this.
	But as we speak, there are 60 of the 125 schools that have developed formal coursework looking at the kind of data we've been talking about.
	So we really are making tremendous progress, Art, in bringing this forward in academic medicine at the highest level.
	And you and I mentioned a moment ago that one of these high-profile studies is going on at Duke Medical School, and I can assure you that if this sort of stuff has been embraced by a modern medical center as outstanding as Duke, then this speaks volumes about how legitimate this research is.
	Well, since I've been small, I've heard stories that a lot of times when somebody's partner dies, they die very shortly thereafter.
	That would seem to imply, if you gathered enough statistical evidence to prove that, that people can kill themselves virtually, psychologically, or with their own consciousness.
	They can will themselves to die, causing some failure of the body.
	Or, conversely, heal themselves.
	I've heard so many stories about that as well.
	So, can we heal ourselves and kill ourselves?
	I think this has been There is a huge body of data looking at the death rates in the first year after the passage of the spouse.
	In every study that has ever been done in the western world, except one study I know of, these studies show that the death rate in the surviving spouse during the first year of bereavement goes up two to twelve times.
	That's right.
	You know who I'm thinking about here?
	the married age match population.
	This has been called the broken heart syndrome.
	There is some fabulous research in this area and really I don't think this raises many
	eyebrows.
	There is also that thing called completion death, deaths where people seem to sign off
	when their job is done.
	You know who I'm thinking about here, Charles Schultz who died just hours before the last
	Peanuts cartoon ran.
	That's a classic example of a death of completeness or completion.
	You've done your work and so you sign off.
	Actually there have been an unnerving number of those kinds of deaths lately.
	Really strange things going on.
	Another one that I might cite that I think that's going on right now is the Pope.
	I don't know whether you've ever seen the Pope lately, but he looks like Almost like a walking cadaver.
	I mean, this man is willing himself to be alive for some reason.
	That's right.
	The Pope we have right now, it's unbelievable.
	I just don't know how he's alive, but he is.
	And so I guess people can make it go either way.
	They could either keep themselves alive because of some driven purpose, or let themselves go.
	And that implies we have an awful lot of control that most people don't believe we have.
	One of my favorite examples from history of willing yourself to stay alive is our third president, Thomas Jefferson.
	Do you know about Jefferson's death?
	Tell me.
	He died on July 4th, which was the 50th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence, which he drafted.
	And Jefferson's final words, and we know this because his physician was sitting at the bedside taking all this down, His final words were, is it the fourth yet?
	Yeah.
	And so, this is another one of your examples of people keeping themselves alive until they get there, and then they sign off.
	Well, science must say that that's just bunk.
	I mean, that's just bunk.
	I mean, the heart gives out when the heart gives out, or whatever it is that killed Jefferson.
	And yet, what you're saying is true.
	I know it's true.
	And if it's true, then it puts a kink in everything!
	Sure it does.
	You know, the skeptics look at that Jefferson event, and the typical skeptical response is, well, Jefferson had a 1 in 365 chances of dying on July 4th.
	What's so special about that?
	As it turns out, he wasn't the only president who died on that particular day.
	Up the road, John Adams, the second president of the United States, also died On July 4th, the 50th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence.
	But that does not impress the, you know, the skeptics who just aren't prepared to go there.
	No, to those people, you have to come at them with the Duke-type studies, and even then, I would imagine there's still some consternation and disbelief and, well, you've got to do a lot more testing, the sample's not big enough, I'm sure I could, you know, sound just like they do.
	Well, that's exactly right, and I think that This has been called the rubber ruler.
	They have sort of selective criteria for judging the study.
	They'll let something under the wire a lot more easily if they love it, but the bar keeps getting raised higher and higher.
	If they don't like it.
	If they don't like it.
	Well, where do you go from where you are now in the pursuit of this?
	More tests?
	More Duke-type studies ahead?
	What's ahead?
	Yeah, there really are some interesting studies going on right now, which I think will just put some more nails in the coffin of this idea that the mind just stays home in the brain.
	We're adding more data points to this art, you know, gradually, and what we're doing is, I think, That's where we are.
	We're doing more and more good studies.
	There's no turning back in this, I think.
	There's already too much data.
	It's not going to go away.
	will just flip and then we'll look back on it and say something like, you know, well
	what was the problem?
	That's where we are.
	We're doing more and more good studies.
	There's no turning back in this, I think.
	There's already too much data.
	It's not going to go away.
	It's becoming more and more abundant.
	And it's a terribly exciting time because I think for the very first time in human history
	we do have empirical evidence that consciousness extends beyond the brain and the body and
	the implication being that it outlives the death of the body.
	How much evidence is there that it eclipses, and we were talking about time earlier, that it eclipses not just the The physical manifestations we've talked about, but time itself.
	Well, let me give you an example of a paper that was published just this January in a journal which I serve as executive editor, a journal called Alternative Therapies in Health and Medicine.
	This was published by a professor and research director at the Institute of Transpersonal Psychology in Palo Alto, Dr. William Broad, and he looked at all of the Experiments that have been done on living things, from human beings to bacteria and test tubes, in which there was something that he calls a backward, time-displaced, retro-temporal influence.
	Now that's a bunch of verbiage which means that consciousness can operate into the past and affect events which we presume have already happened.
	This gets to be pretty heavy duty to try to lay this out very simply in a short period of time, but the gist of this is that these studies, of which there are 19 which he was able to identify, show that consciousness can reach back into the past, and if an event has happened and has been measured, but, and here's the key point, has not yet been observed by a human, then consciousness in the present can reach back and affect that event.
	Even though we presume that it has already taken place.
	So this is hard evidence that... Wait a minute, I'm not sure I understand all that.
	Let me give you an example of how this works.
	Please.
	Let's say you have 100 test tubes of bacteria.
	Right.
	Okay?
	And so they're just doing what bacteria do.
	They just are going to multiply at a known rate, and so you let them Do this, and then at a certain point, you measure, with something called a photometer, the amount of light that can shine through these test tubes, which is an index of how much they've multiplied.
	Gotcha.
	Alright?
	Now, this is recorded on, let's say, an automatic system, say a magnetic tape, but nobody looks at it.
	Nobody actually knows what the bacteria replication rate has been.
	Oh.
	Alright?
	Now stick with me here.
	I think I'm getting it.
	Okay.
	Now, somebody in the present moment I'm going to go back and try to slow down the replication rate of half of those test tubes.
	And so they exert their intentions, or they pray, or whatever they call it, to make a difference in slowing down the rate of growth of half of those bacteria.
	And then, here's what happens.
	Then the researchers go back and look at that magnetic tape, which recorded all of those growth rates in all of those test tubes, which should have been the same.
	Generally, on average.
	It should have been close to the same for all those test tubes.
	And by golly, half of those test tubes, which that person in the present moment tried to effect, were in fact slowed down.
	But if there had been a human consciously monitoring the growth all along in all of these test tubes, 24 hours a day, that effect could not have occurred.
	That's right.
	Ooh, that's interesting.
	And here's why.
	Are you familiar with the process known as cold fusion?
	Yes, I am.
	Well, the two gentlemen who invented it have had to leave the country.
	That's right.
	And the reason is because about half the universities that tested the process found that, yes, the process in fact works.
	The other half couldn't get it to work at all.
	I mean, it just flat didn't work.
	And so the scientists sort of cast it away because it could not be repeated reliably each time.
	They're over there doing a lot of really good work right now, by the way, but I just wonder if the process you just described might not in some way bear on that process.
	Well, I think in the next few years we're going to see the relevance of this phenomenon that I just mentioned here, tapering with the outcome of the experiment in this particular way, and we're going to have to go back and assess many of those studies.
	How were they done?
	At what point did the individual observe the recording of the outcome of the study and that sort of thing?
	This is terribly exciting.
	In all of those experiments that Dr. Broad reported, those 19, there were less than three chances in one billion that those outcomes could be explained by chance.
	Three in a billion?
	That's right.
	This is, uh, you know, we've been talking about how consciousness can reach out through space, and a lot of people find that challenging, but I gotta tell you that when you start tampering with people's idea of time, that's even more challenging for them.
	So, we're gonna have a real challenge on our hands here, I think, making this plain and simple and, I hope, easily digestible to people, but I think we'll get there.
	I just wonder, though, if some hard scientific processes, like the one you described, might be paralleled by The attitude of the researchers who are trying to duplicate the cold fusion process.
	I mean, it's a big leap, I realize that, but it might be applicable here.
	I think the leap is justified, and in certain studies in human beings, we have seen the outcome of the study correlate time after time with the pre-existing prediction of the primary researcher.
	Now, this is not supposed to... this is heresy, obviously, because scientists really don't want to go there because they think that'll screw up science, you know, resoundingly.
	That's right.
	But, we're going to have to deal with these things, and we're going to look back and say that science was never as simple as we thought.
	The consciousness, the intentions, and the belief systems of the experimenter enter into the outcome.
	All right, Doc, you want to stick around and answer some questions of callers?
	I would love it.
	All right, then.
	That's what we're going to do next.
	Stay right where you are.
	Pretty convincing evidence, isn't it, folks?
	But of what?
	Uh-huh.
	That's the 60 forward these days, I guess, the $1 million question.
	Would not give false hope on this train.
	More. But the mother child is only a motion.
	To reach our goal in the kingdom of my from most of the Rockies,
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First-time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222, or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
	To reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator, and have them
	dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
	Good morning.
	My guest is Dr. Larry Dorsey, and he's talking of things that, well, I guess to a lot of science, not a year or two ago would have been heretical.
	Definitely so.
	If you have questions, we're about to go to the phones, so stay right where you are, for that's coming next.
	Once again, back to Dr. Larry Dorsey and the phones coming right up.
	Doctor, this is kind of out on the edge too, but I thought I would ask it.
	Really interesting facts from Salt Lake City.
	Dear Art, I have an experience that relates to your discussion of non-linear time.
	I've had many strange experiences in my life, but there is only one experience that I absolutely have no doubt occurred.
	About ten years ago, I had an extremely vivid dream of where I was experiencing strange perceptions, situations, and interactions.
	I woke up from the dream and literally said out loud, what the hell was that?
	I remembered all of the events that occurred within the dream.
	Three months after that dream experience, I took some LSD with a group of my friends.
	During the peak of the LSD experience, which lasted maybe 30 minutes, really, that's short, every nuance of my perception went back in time and landed in the dream that I had three months earlier.
	It was like traveling through a wormhole.
	Every person, situation, perceptual distortion went back in time.
	Since all of these experiences were already registered in my memory from the dream, when they arose in real life, I could do nothing but drop my jaw in astonishment.
	What do you think about that?
	Well, I take it very seriously.
	I think that there's a huge spectrum of how nonlinear time manifests, Art, and I think this is a classic example of that.
	What we have are overlapping events To the extent that past and present and future just really lose their meaning, I think that the best proof or evidence that this sort of thing can't happen is to have exactly the sort of experience that this person described.
	This is not rational and I think that there is no way that you will ever be able to convince I don't believe in linear time that there's anything to this sort of experience.
	But for the individual who experiences it, that erases the indecision about it.
	All right, here come the phones.
	First on caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Larry Dorsey.
	Hi.
	Hello, Larry.
	Actually, Dossie.
	That's correct, isn't it?
	Dossie?
	Dossie.
	D-O-S-S-E-Y.
	Dossie.
	Okay.
	Caller?
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Yes.
	Hi, this is Jim from Eber Springs, Arkansas.
	Hello, Jim.
	I would like to talk to the doctor and yourself about dynamic noetic transfer.
	I'm a spectrum guy, and I think this deals with dimensional transfer.
	How does one, let's say, DNA facility talk to another?
	Is it by a spectrum that we know conventionally, or does it surpass Let's try to rephrase that.
	Let's talk about mental telepathy.
	I understand all that.
	I would be really venturing out there not to even venture a response.
	I don't share the vocabulary, so I think it would be probably irresponsible for me, Jim,
	to even attempt to respond to your question.
	Well, let's try to rephrase that.
	Let's talk about mental telepathy.
	How is one mind talking to the other, like in radio waves, as one radio person talks
	to another person?
	Well, I can give you my opinion on where I think this is headed.
	I don't think that there's any signal that's going between distant individual minds.
	I think that's an image that's drawn from classical physics where we're habituated to think that if things make contact at a distance, they've got to have some sort of signal that bridges the gap.
	Non-locality is not like that.
	And non-local events in subatomic physics, for example, when two distant electrons change, they do so immediately.
	There isn't even any time for any signal to bridge the gap.
	Right.
	Right?
	So I think that where we're headed is setting aside a lot of these prejudices about how this can happen and how it must happen.
	I think one of the things we're going to have to give up is this signal mentality where we think something's got to bridge the gap.
	Sure.
	You know, currently one of the favorite darling terms is what's called subtle energy.
	There isn't any evidence, any empirical evidence that I know of, that any sort of energy, subtle or otherwise, bridges any sort of distance between people.
	So, in other words, if we're trying to use traditional laws of science and physics to try and explain, for example, mental telepathy... And it doesn't work.
	There's no way.
	No, no.
	Plus, even if you...
	I said that there was some sort of subtle signal that was so subtle we just haven't been able to detect it yet.
	That still wouldn't help us understand how you can have time displacement.
	Plus, there are other problems with signals also.
	For example, there's no diminution in the strength of telepathy with distance.
	It doesn't matter if you're at one inch or on the other side of the earth from somebody.
	All sorts of energetic signals fall off.
	According to the inverse square law in physics, they get weaker the farther you get from the source.
	Telemetry doesn't behave like that.
	There's no evidence that it does.
	So we're beyond energy for another reason.
	We're beyond energy and energetic signals for yet another reason.
	You can't shield this stuff.
	You can put the recipient or the sender in a Faraday cage, a lead-lined box that blocks for all intents and purposes electromagnetic and magnetic signals of all sorts.
	But the signal of the telepathy gets through just as if the box wasn't there.
	So for many lines of reasoning, I think that we're going to have to go beyond this idea that there's any specific sort of energetic signal connecting distant individuals when they have telepathic or clairvoyant communications.
	Did you know that one of our astronauts, one of our Apollo 14 astronauts, conducted experiments like that halfway To the moon, I'm sure, much to the chagrin of NASA.
	Secretly conducted experiments, which he declared to be successful.
	Yes, I did.
	So, there you are.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Dr. Larry Dossey.
	Hi.
	Hi, yes.
	Good evening to both of you, and to the good Dr. Larry Dossey.
	By the way, Art, it's hormones, not hormones.
	I keep hearing you advertise hormones.
	I'm going to make a quick comment about Matthew Alper who you talk about a lot.
	I don't give him two figs for what he says about having to protect ourselves and we have to invent a God and so on.
	You would not have small children, pets, going around, ghost figures, and you would just not have people who would be responding in the way that Larry Dawsey's experiments that he's talked about, people who are semi-conscious, don't even know they're being prayed about, prayed for, having these healings.
	Well, dear lady, that's why I'm having the good doctor on after Matt's number.
	That's right!
	Well, I'm calling because There is a question, when you were last in Richmond, Virginia, that I asked you, Dr. Dawsey, and you could not really quite answer it.
	Of course, we were all surrounded by people who were essentially worshipping at the feet of Carl Jung and all of Carl Jung's psychologists, and I think they were fairly agnostic in their own approach to God or a creator.
	And what I asked you then, you couldn't quite answer, but maybe you can now, these years later, and that is that since these prayer experiments really show scientifically that they work, and since when we have taken prayer out of the schools, how the schools have fallen down so incredibly badly, doesn't it make sense that we re-establish prayer back in school?
	Well, I don't know if I've gotten any smarter over the years or not.
	I probably can't answer it very well now either.
	My opinion about prayer has somewhat changed.
	I'm in favor of prayer in schools, but I'm in favor of it being silent prayer.
	I don't know any way to have a spoken prayer without enshrining some religion to the extent, in some people's eyes, of putting down other religions.
	You know, there have been all sorts of proposals about rotating prayer and religions and formal prayer ceremonies in schools and so on.
	I think if people want to pray in schools, they ought to do it.
	Silently.
	But her point is well taken, and that is that even if it's silent contemplation and prayer without specific religions involved, could that affect The society in general, could such a mass action as removing prayer from school affect society in general?
	Could that be one answer to the mindless, violent crimes and deterioration in our school system that we've seen?
	She is right.
	Yes, I think that there's a very strong possibility that that's a factor in social deterioration.
	I presume that you know about these experiments in mass meditation, for which there is some published evidence that when a certain number of people, a certain percentage of the population, come together and meditate in a certain way, the quality of life in that surrounding area changes for the better.
	I was not aware.
	There have been published studies, several of them by now, that have been done by researchers This is indirect evidence, I think, that what the caller suggests may, in fact, be going on.
	If you take that away from a culture, the question then becomes, are you damaging it?
	Are you inserting chaos into that community or that region?
	I think for all these reasons, we need to go back and see what we've done by eliminating prayer.
	This is a touchy issue.
	You know, Carl, as you can tell, my response now is just about as confused as it was when you first heard it in Richmond.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Larry Dossey.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Good evening, Art and Dr. Dossey.
	Hi.
	How are you doing this evening?
	Good.
	Pleasure to listen to you.
	It's a very stimulating conversation.
	Yes.
	Where are you?
	I'm in Roberts, Wisconsin, actually.
	A very small town with a thousand people.
	I wish my call was a little more of a jovial manner, but it's not.
	Almost a year to the date before I was born, in 1977, my four-year-old sister, Tanya, died of a brain tumor.
	I guess how it relates is, one of your past guests, Dr. Lorraine Lorraine of Terror?
	Yes.
	Dr. Lorraine Day.
	One of the times I was really very offended and almost very close to shutting a rehabilitation office when she suggested that the upbringing of parents and sort of the environment and everything they subject the child to sort of predisposes them to certain diseases and stuff and I was sort of very offended.
	I mean at the mere suggestion that my parents upbringing and their habits and sort of The feeding and everything, you know, would sort of dispose her to such diseases and stuff.
	And I was wondering what Dr. Dawsey's thoughts were on, like, just overall, like, well, the way, you know, upbringing and environment and stuff sort of affects these certain diseases and stuff.
	Oh, it's a good question, actually.
	Thank you very much.
	All right.
	I'm not sure you're going to like the answer, and it may not be the case in your specific case.
	Overall, Doctor, how would you answer that?
	Your sister died of a brain hemorrhage.
	Is that what you said?
	Brain tumor.
	A brain tumor.
	Well, I think that we get into real trouble when we try to simplify and trivialize the origins of illness.
	I think that, without question, there are psychological causes.
	There are certainly physical causes.
	There are environmental causes.
	There are certainly genetic causes.
	Now, in any given illness, I defy anyone to be able to define those explicitly.
	I think that In most diseases, the origin of the disease is pretty much a mystery and we're stuck trying to do the best we can as far as understanding where it came from.
	I think a lot of metaphysical mischief is done by making people feel guilty for getting sick.
	I think that this begins as a tremendous insight, namely that the mind does make a difference in health, but it's so often carried to ridiculous extremes.
	And so you heap a lot of sense of guilt on families and so on for perpetrating illness.
	I think we need to take a deep breath and back off and look at this again.
	I have made a study of the diseases that have killed the great saints and mystics throughout history.
	Let me tell you, that's not a pretty sight.
	Some of those people died from horrible diseases, including cancer and brain tumors.
	These people are highly spiritual.
	They're God-realized.
	They pray enough.
	They pray right.
	And if these people die of brain tumors and worse, then that ought to say something about the rest of us.
	You can be highly spiritual and have it all going for you psychologically and still die of some pretty awful diseases.
	Sure.
	So that's it in a nutshell, Caller.
	And I think you're right to really question that kind of simplification of the origin of any illness.
	Is there any way that as these studies move forward, That we will eventually be able to assign a percentage of probability to the metaphysical alternative approach, along with the traditional approach to these serious diseases, you know, like radiation and chemo and all the rest of it.
	Yeah, I wish I knew the answer to that, and I think that that's something we're just going to have to stay open to as we go along.
	I think our science now is too primitive to make a prediction along those lines.
	I would be happy now if we could just get on the table the possibility that spiritual issues might really play a role and that consciousness can work at a distance and do all the things we've been talking about.
	I think the other more complex questions will settle themselves in time.
	I have a short story and then a question for you.
	the air with Dr. Larry Dossi. Hi. Hi. I have a short story and then a question for you.
	I used to be a teacher at this outdoor ed camp and this guy I worked with always told
	me a story about this college he went to down in Southern California where on the first
	day of this Tai Chi kind of class, it was called Chi Gong or something like that, the
	teacher would sit half the class down in a row and have the other half stand behind them
	and would do some sort of brief meditation form thing and then push and make a sound
	and all the people standing up would get pushed back, like knocked over, like by a force and
	the people sitting down didn't get pounded.
	My question was actually about biofeedback and if you were thinking this might be a more standard practice in the future because if people like yogis and even from what I've heard average everyday people can actually control their physicality Is it going to become standard practice for us to start practicing that in a focused setting?
	Alright.
	One might imagine, for example, yogis we know can control their heart rate.
	Now, if somebody was having a heart problem, would you be able to take that ability and control your heart rate and stop what otherwise might turn into a big problem suddenly for you?
	Well, I think that's certainly on the horizon.
	If we were to take biofeedback training and these self-mastery possibilities quite seriously, biofeedback, I have to say personally, is very dear to my heart.
	It probably saved my career.
	Really?
	Yes.
	Alright, I'll tell you what.
	Hold that story.
	We're right at the bottom of another hour.
	Time passes very quickly when you have an interesting topic.
	Biofeedback.
	We'll explore that in a moment.
	I can see clearly now the rain is gone.
	I can see all obstacles in my way.
	Gone are the dark clouds that had me blind.
	It's gonna be a bright, bright, bright sunshiny day.
	It's gonna be a bright, bright, bright sunshiny day.
	I think I can make it now, the pain is gone.
	She's got something that moves my soul.
	And she knows I'd love to love her.
	But she lets me down every time.
	Can't make her mine.
	She's no one's woman tonight.
	Tonight with me she'll be so invited.
	I wanna roll for myself.
	I'm not a damn gracious.
	Don't get a move on.
	Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-7000.
	First time callers may reach Art at 1-775-727-1222.
	1-800-825-5033. First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222.
	And the wildcard line is open at 1-775-727-1295. To reach out on the toll free
	international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-424-9483.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
	That would be me, and my guest is Dr. Larry Dossey.
	He'll be right back.
	Once again, here is Dr. Larry Dossi.
	Doctor, welcome back.
	Thank you.
	Biofeedback, you said that was pretty important to your career.
	How so?
	Since grade school, Art, I had a terrible physical illness, classical migraine headache that was associated with incapacitating pain and nausea, vomiting, and the worst thing was blindness.
	This got worse when I was in medical school and it began to be such a problem that I was convinced that sooner or later I was going to either harm or kill a patient during surgery or something like that with an attack of blindness.
	Oh my!
	I tried to drop out of medical school because this was an ethical issue for me and my advisor wouldn't let me.
	This persisted and got worse even when I went into medical practice.
	In the early 70's biofeedback was discovered accidentally at the Menninger Foundation in Topeka.
	To be helpful for people who suffer from migraine.
	I chased all over the country learning how to do biofeedback as a patient and for the very first time in my life I found tremendous, almost miraculous relief.
	This opened up a huge area of interest for me in terms of the effects of consciousness on the body.
	I was really an obsessive type A individual in those days and I didn't even know I had a mind-body connection.
	It taught me how to relax.
	It taught me how to use imagery and visualization.
	It led to my participation in meditation.
	My interest in the farther reaches of consciousness actually had their roots with my experience in biofeedback.
	I owe biofeedback a tremendous amount.
	Can you tell me exactly how you applied it?
	I actually used certain gadgets, sophisticated solid state gadgets that measured, for example,
	the temperature of my hands, my fingers.
	I would learn to raise the temperature, which is an indication of turning off sympathetic
	nervous system activity in the body, dilating your blood vessels, allowing more blood to
	flow to the periphery of the body, which is a great index toward relaxation.
	I really got good at that.
	I also monitored my muscle tension at key areas around the head and neck, and I learned
	to lower that.
	And so hand-warming techniques and muscle tension lowering techniques were the two modalities
	which I really had fun with.
	That's amazing.
	Absolutely amazing.
	All right, East of the Rockies, you're on air with Dr. Dossey.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	I did research that shows evidence that there is such a thing as out-of-body memory, and that real-looking dream characters, memory puppets recorded all the way through, and that the brain is simply A mechanism in the center of all this.
	This research is based on how real-looking dream characters can bend the way I can bend, and they are unable to bend the same way I'm unable to bend.
	Alright, in other words, that our brain is a separate entity from what it is connected with.
	Sort of backing up, I guess, what you're saying in a way, Doctor.
	Yeah, I think that's pretty consistent with what we've been talking about.
	Alright, West of the Rockies, you're on there with Dr. Dossi.
	Hello?
	I'm calling from Stockton.
	My name is Pamela.
	Pamela, you're going to have to yell at us a little bit.
	You're not too loud.
	Hello, I'm calling from Stockton.
	Is that better?
	Now, turn your radio off.
	My radio is off.
	Okay, good.
	Oh, my TV's on.
	Hold on.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Is that better?
	Better.
	Okay.
	I guess I was trying to get this organized in my head of what's going on.
	It seemed kind of to me, after listening to what Dr. Dawson just said about his with this migraine it made a little more sense that unlike
	one of the other callers who just called can you not realize that when we incorporate all of
	our systems together that this is already in place.
	I think one of the reasons people won't come forth with it is because our government wants
	to put as you put quote money on everything and they'll figure out a way to tax it.
	You know if the doctor says you get a oh gosh I'm losing my train of thought.
	Well just calm down.
	Think it over.
	If you have to go through like you go to college or go to school and set up a curriculum for certain things, there are some things that you cannot have a curriculum for in life.
	Well, that's true.
	And I think this is one of the things that we're dealing with.
	This is like a spiritual type thing that we have to deal with if it comes and you can't.
	It's like the linear time we live in that is not real for us.
	It's not really real.
	It's kind of inhibited.
	Well, let me pose a question based on what you just said.
	That is, Doctor, how long do you suppose it might be, and I know it's just a wild guess, before alternative methods, the kind of thing we're talking about tonight, would be included in any school curriculum?
	Let me give you the data.
	Okay.
	Currently, three-fourths of the medical schools in the country have courses in alternative therapies.
	Now that's not saying that they're jumping up and down cheering this on.
	A lot of them have developed these courses because the students have gone to the dean's office and banged on the door and said, you know, we want this.
	But that really is a major start.
	I mean, ten years ago this was dead in the water.
	So I think this is a generational thing though, Art.
	I mean, we're not going to see modern medicine You know, coming on board overnight, but I am extremely hopeful that as these young doctors really become comfortable with these modalities, we're going to see this trickle down to the doctor's office near you.
	So, I think that there's no turning back in this.
	The data is too strong, there's too much of it, and we really have made some great gains in the past four or five years.
	Alright, I really have not given you a proper opportunity to plug your latest book.
	Reinventing Medicine is your latest book.
	What is this book about?
	The book looks at the reasons why we are in the process of redefining what it means to be conscious, how our mind works, how our mind can function beyond the confines of the brain and body, and what all this has to do with our health.
	Tips in there about how to actually use this.
	There's information about how to apply it to your own situation.
	And so, this is a look at where medicine is going to wind up.
	And this is based on solid science.
	This isn't ruthless speculation.
	This is, I think, a realistic look at what we're all going to be living in terms of how medicine is practiced in the next decade.
	Is it available generally in bookstores?
	Yes, it's published by Harper San Francisco, a major publisher, and it's available in all major bookstores as well as on the outlets on the internet.
	Alright.
	Everybody always likes their latest book best, I suppose, but you've got an awful lot of other books here.
	What would be the next recommendation?
	If I had to pick a second choice, it would be Healing Words, The Power of Prayer, and The Practice of Medicine.
	Healing Words was published in 1993.
	It wound up on the New York Times list because it really, for the very first time, came forward with a whole bunch of evidence showing that prayer actually works when put to the test in medicine.
	That was a new idea and it created quite a sensation, so that would be my second choice.
	Tomorrow night I'm going to have a theologian on, Dr. Hugh Ross.
	He has an institute called Reasons to Believe, a very serious theologian, and he would say, of course, that yes, prayer works, of course prayer works, but I wonder how he would, in fact, I guess I'll find out tomorrow night, because I'll ask him, why prayer would work for Hindus, why prayer would work for various religious groups other than Christians.
	How do you think he would answer that?
	Well, I don't know where he's coming from religiously, but I must say that the response I have had from religious, professional religionists and theologians in this country towards what I've been talking about has been just tremendous.
	Most people I've bumped into in the theological community are willing to bend on this and bring other religions under the umbrella.
	And allow that their prayers could work also.
	It's only a very small minor vocal group who don't want to compromise on this at all and want to claim that only their prayers are effective.
	But I must emphasize that that's a very small minority in my experience.
	Alright.
	I still want to understand how you applied biofeedback specifically.
	You had terrible headaches, migraine headaches, Stuff that makes you wish you were dead.
	Really awful.
	And I understand that with biofeedback you attach things to your skin.
	It measures, I guess, your pulse, your respiration, your perspiration, and on and on and on.
	And then you try and meditate in some manner.
	Yes, one does.
	To affect these, correct?
	Actually the most popular way is to use images and visualizations that I have to do with relaxed experiences and very pleasant experiences that you've had.
	For instance, if you want to warm your hands, you might imagine that you're sitting in front of a fire with people you love and it's Christmas or something like that and it's chilly outside.
	Fill up a wonderfully colorful image for yourself and enter that as totally as you can.
	The first time or two you try this, you feel pretty silly.
	But then something amazing happens.
	Your body begins to come along and respond in the way that you image.
	And then you get so good at this so quickly, most people do, within five or six sessions, that it's like taking the training wheels off the bicycle.
	You don't need those gadgets anymore.
	You develop an inner sensitivity toward being relaxed or tense so that you just do it automatically.
	Okay, so once you had the training wheels come off, how did you apply that to your migraines?
	such an innate, ingrained part of me that I didn't have to wait until I began to get
	a headache to do this.
	It became something that I incorporated automatically.
	It became intrinsic so that the headaches just stopped.
	It wasn't that I waited until that warning sign and then turned on my biofeedback skill.
	Got you.
	All right.
	You're on the air with Dr. Larry Dossey.
	Hi.
	Hi, this is Jeremy in Burlington, Vermont.
	How are you doing?
	Just fine.
	Dr. Dossey, I had a question regarding something you were talking about earlier about timeless consciousness and how you said that this research, you know, and hypothesis in certain scientists' cases when they were preyed about, they had a positive effect or an outcome which they expected.
	Is that correct?
	Yes.
	What I was wondering is, in that case, does that mean if you can apply to it like a be-all and end-all rule, I'm not willing to go that far.
	future that is thought of or any idea, if enough people think about it as being true
	or enough people know it to be true, whether it be a fallacy or not, that it actually would
	be true.
	I'm not willing to go that far.
	Really?
	I think that we are in our infancy in understanding the limit cases and the constraining variables
	and so on, so I don't want to make any broad global generalizations at this stage.
	But even if you would, would it be helpful to, or how would you go about researching
	something like that?
	Well, Dr. Roger Nelson at Princeton is doing this, for example.
	He has something called random event generators, which seem to respond by becoming less random and more organized in terms of spitting out 1's or 0's.
	Usually they spit out equal numbers of 1's or 0's.
	When people entrain their minds and become aligned emotionally, the darn things begin to respond.
	Less chaotically and less randomly.
	What he's done is to run these things when vast numbers of people come together in some sort of emotional alignment.
	For example, he's run them during the World Cup of Soccer.
	He ran them when the Millennium changed.
	He runs them during the Academy Awards, which a high percentage of the world's population watches.
	And during these moments when people come together, he hypothesizes, in a sort of emotional alignment, these things began to become less random and less chaotic.
	This is indirect evidence that when large numbers of people do entrain themselves in a certain framework, a mental framework, then the physical world changes.
	That explains why the U.S.
	wins so many awards, I suppose.
	It might.
	All right, Connor, thank you.
	You mentioned the movies.
	One of the movies that's nominated this year happens to be something called The Sixth Sense.
	Did you see that movie yet, Dr?
	I haven't.
	Not yet.
	Oh, I seriously recommend it.
	If you haven't seen it, we can't talk about it.
	It's too easy to give it away and ruin it for people, so I won't say anything.
	But the fact that Hollywood is beginning to deal more and more with these topics, is that bringing society in general along?
	Yeah, I think so.
	This is part and parcel of a social movement, a vast cultural movement, which I think is absolutely profound and which reaches to the foundations of our society.
	I think particularly you see this in alternative medicine, where in any given year, the majority of the American adult population uses some sort of alternative therapy.
	This is one of the most massive social shifts at the end of the 20th century.
	I think you're seeing this reflected not just in medicine, alternative medicine, but as It's great to finally talk to you.
	Good to talk to you, sir.
	I'm a relatively new fan.
	Let me tell you briefly, I just wanted to thank you for being such a positive influence on my life.
	About two and a half years ago, I was introduced to you by a relative of mine.
	Up until then, I was raised by an attorney.
	They were Catholic and stuff, but I was pretty much an atheist.
	I was reunited with a biological sister about two years ago.
	When I met this person, she was several years older than I was.
	We were both given up for adoption.
	So when we finally met, she's got a couple of kids.
	She's psychic and she's been doing readings for people and types of cloud busting.
	You name it, she's doing it.
	I just thought she was kind of kooky.
	She started to get me into it and I took a look into this.
	I used to work as a private investigator and a process server so I pretty much had to be able to prove something to take a look at something.
	The more and more I looked at it I found out my skill lied in healing work and I've been working as a healer ever since.
	And I've pretty much left that line of work behind, and it's just so incredible that more people don't know about this, and that the people that are involved in this field are so divided with opinions on techniques or, you know, proper, you know, whatever you want to call it.
	Well, put simply, sir, it's pretty much because up until fairly recently, our society has said it's all baloney.
	Exactly.
	New age.
	My family, even though they tried to... I went to a Catholic school and the nuns, the whole bit, and I rejected, you know, the whole concept of Jesus.
	And, you know, I was Matthew Albert, you know.
	And pretty much when I was exposed to this, I was confronted in such a manner that I could not deny it.
	My father, I mean, he thought I lost my mind.
	I mean, my father went to the seminary and he couldn't even accept this.
	And, you know, being an attorney, you know, he's a pretty hard line.
	You know, they read about it here and there, and they start coming around a little bit.
	But more importantly, I wanted to mention briefly, the contrails here are daily, very heavy, every day for God knows how long.
	And I treat people all the time for upper respiratory things and all types of fibromyalgia symptoms, and they don't know where it's coming from, and they're usually healthy people.
	And I can't go telling them, oh yeah, by the way, it's the contrails.
	Well, you're ranging off topic a little bit here.
	I know, I'm sorry.
	I just, you know, there's so much I've always wanted to say to you.
	Alright, then I've got something I'll say back that's also off topic, and that is, I got a fax earlier tonight from a very good source that suggested, in fact, with regard to the contrails, that whatever it is, it appears to be highly corrosive.
	And what corrosive problems have we had in the air lately?
	And I'll leave it at that, alright?
	Thank you very much for the call.
	Doctor, let me ask you.
	We're at the top of the hour.
	I have one more hour of show, and I always ask guests, depending on their day coming up later, whether they want to stay for the last hour.
	They can stay, or whether they've got an early get-up.
	Well, it's an early get-up for me.
	Okay.
	Well, it has been really a pleasure having you on the program.
	Well, it's been a joy for me.
	I hope we can do it again sometime.
	We can do it again sometime, and I think that people just I guess people ought to go out and buy your book is what they ought to do.
	That's the obvious choice.
	That's right.
	And remember, folks, at Amazon.com, until they go broke, you can get it at 30% discount.
	I always tell people that.
	All right.
	Thank you, Doctor.
	Thanks very much.
	Good night, my friend.
	Good night.
	That's Dr. Larry Dossey.
	One hour of open lines, directly ahead.
	I'm Art Bell and this is Coast to Coast AM.
	I don't care where I go when I'm blue.
	When I cry, you don't laugh cause you know me.
	I'm in you.
	I'm in you, you're in me I'm in you, you're in me
	Cause you gave me the love, love that I never had Yes, you gave me the love, love that I never had
	Cause you gave me the love Love that I never had
	Yes you gave me the love Love that I never had
	I'm hoping in heaven, moving in sound You're with me
	I'm walking in a rainbow Moving in sound
	I'm into the music Trying to move on
	I'm walking in rhythm Singing my song
	Thinking about my baby Trying to get home
	I'm walking in rhythm Moving in sound
	Jart Bell in the kingdom of Nye from west of the Rockies, Dialogue.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may recharge at 1-775-727-1222.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222, or use the wildcard line at 1-775-727-1295.
	To reach out on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them
	dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
	Oh, I've got a very, very interesting New York Times story here that I thought you might enjoy.
	Several years ago, I wrote a book called The Quickening, which basically suggested that everything around us Is speeding up society?
	Economics?
	Politics?
	Everything!
	Every aspect of life around us is speeding up.
	That was a basic contention of the book and it still holds true today.
	Now, I'd like you to consider the following from the New York Times.
	It's by James Glantz, G-L-A-N-Z.
	The discovery two years ago that the expansion of the universe is speeding up has presented physicists and cosmologists with a major problem.
	The gravity of all the known matter and energy in our own universe should slow that expansion, not speed up.
	Think about it, right?
	There was, most people think, a big bang and everything was blown outward.
	Well, if anything, the laws of everything we know suggest that as time, billions of years would go on, Those objects would be expanding at a slower rate, not a faster rate, but it's not true.
	The cosmologists who have made this proposal concede it is a radical proposal, but they are now suggesting that the acceleration effect may be because of another universe.
	In other words, something is pushing us out.
	Something with extra dimensions that may exist beyond our own Three-dimensional world pushing us.
	Now, what other explanation would you have?
	And this is going to be, of course, a pretty good question, I guess, for Dr. Ross tomorrow night.
	What other explanation would you come up with when trying to explain why things are moving faster rather than slower following ze old Big Bang?
	It just doesn't make sense.
	Alright, here we go. Open lines. Anything you would like to talk about is fair game.
	Unscreen, talk radio, here we go.
	First time caller on the line, you're on air, good morning.
	Hi.
	Hi there.
	I'm Kathy from Sacramento.
	Kathy from Sacramento, turn your radio off.
	That's off.
	Alright, go right ahead.
	Okay.
	I wanted to speak to Art about This is Art.
	Hi, I'm sorry.
	I wanted to speak to you about, ask you if you have heard of an author by the name of Charles Kraus.
	Yes, the name is familiar.
	I just read his book, it's called Defeating Dark Angel.
	Yes.
	And it has a lot to do with what you've been speaking about for the last three hours.
	it was really quite interesting to have
	a medical doctor uh...
	had confirmed from the stuff i've been reading about well that's what i thought to him some of what he said
	has to be startling to an awful lot of people It just has to be startling.
	It has to be, and I would suggest to the rest of your audience that are listening right now that there are a lot of dark angels out there that cause a lot of problems, a lot of disease, and a lot of The things that are going on in this universe right now.
	Well, maybe some of those dark angels are within.
	As the power to cure and the power to heal would appear to be within as well.
	So, I don't know.
	You've got to consider all the possibilities and that's one of them.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello, Art Bell?
	Yes.
	Yes, this is Mad Max from KSBK again.
	Mad Max.
	How are you doing, Max?
	Listen, a while back I read an article in Newsweek, where there were some scientists at some mid-eastern university, mid-eastern United States, where they had hooked up some electrodes to some experimentees, and they were running the brainwaves that they had recorded from some Swamis, some adepts from India, and they had to stop the experiments because the
	These students who were like electronic engineer majors and psychology majors who were
	becoming lab rats for money were
	changing careers becoming Oh Joining the Peace Corps and
	Okay, the only thing I'm not clear about here is you're suggesting
	Now we can read brainwaves Right.
	Right.
	What they were doing, they were using electromagnetic coils and placing them next to the temporal lobes.
	And then they were running pre-recorded brainwaves from Indian, Islamic, Fakirs, Adepts, back through these.
	That's something to think about.
	It would in fact be possible to modulate, in effect, an electromagnetic wave in that manner.
	Right.
	Oh, that's really weird.
	You know that they do use, they call it transcranial magnetic stimulation or something like that.
	It's to, they're exploring the brain, they're making like muscles twitch and stuff with really high currents of this stuff.
	They're also using it to, as an experimental treatment for epileptics.
	Alright, I appreciate it.
	That is really, really, really interesting what he just said.
	I can't imagine that you could modulate an electromagnetic wave with the brainwaves of, as he put it, a Swami or somebody capable of controlling their own processes, bodily processes.
	That's really, really, really interesting.
	And pretty far out there too, but interesting.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air, hi.
	Hi, this is Bobby from Duluth, Minnesota.
	I have two quick questions.
	One is, have you ever heard of a group called The Orb?
	No.
	You have a radio on, don't you?
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	I'm going to run out of the room real quick.
	Alright.
	I do suggest you check them out.
	They're kind of an ambient techno group.
	They're sort of a drug themselves.
	The music is very layered and very sort of spiritual, as some of the bumper music you play.
	I don't know.
	Well, music is a drug.
	And one other question is, how did you know that 30 minutes was a short while for an LSD trip to last?
	Oh, trust me, I know.
	See you later.
	I know.
	I never heard of a 30 minute LSD trip.
	Have you?
	My memory is that they last, oh, a good long time.
	8, 10, 12, 13 hours or more, typical.
	I read that somewhere, of course.
	First time calling a line, you're on the air, hello.
	Hello, Art, how are you doing tonight?
	Sounds like you're in a jet plane.
	Ah, well, no, a slow-moving semi-truck.
	Okay, well.
	I just wanted to ask you a quick question.
	The other day I was listening, I'm a ham, and I heard you on 29.6.
	Oh, you heard me, Ed.
	I actually didn't hear you.
	I heard somebody talking to you.
	Ah, I see.
	And I was wondering, do you, um, is that primarily where you hang out on 10 meters during the day?
	Because I'm just a tech plus and I, one of the reasons I got into ham radio was, uh, was because of you.
	I heard you talking about it all the time and I got interested and decided to give it a try.
	All right.
	Well, let me answer the question for you on the air.
	Listen on the air.
	My gosh, that's a loud truck.
	Um, Yes, I generally hang out on 29.6.
	I split my attention between 29.6 FM, narrowband FM, and 29.5.
	Now, 29.6 is a calling frequency, so I'm not on there a lot.
	But occasionally I pop in there and then generally go down to 29.5.
	And the reason I hang out there is because I like the FM.
	I like the quality of the audio.
	I'm one of those old-timers who Although I understand the efficiency and the spectrum-saving capability of single sideband, it still sounds like crap.
	And so you can't go on the AM these days without being criticized on the handbands for being a spectrum hog.
	FM, narrowband FM, offers audio quality that is reminiscent of the old AM days, and that's why you'll find me up there.
	What's for the Rockies?
	You're on the air.
	Hello.
	Mr. Bell, this is Andrew in Fritzland.
	Oops, I mean Phoenix.
	Well, it's Fritzland.
	Yeah, that's all right.
	Fine.
	Good.
	Guest suggestion.
	Sure.
	Okay.
	Are you familiar with a gentleman named Kent Stedman?
	Oh, yes.
	Oh, have you ever had him on?
	Oh, yes.
	I've never heard him.
	I've listened for two and a half years.
	Yes, we went through quite an odyssey with Mr. Stedman.
	He's quite an interesting gentleman.
	Yeah.
	The man must never sleep.
	I would agree with all of that.
	And more!
	What's that?
	And more!
	Yeah.
	Oh well, I just wanted to say I'm enjoying the show and keep up the good work.
	Okay, take care.
	Ah yes, on the international line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hi, Art Bell.
	It's Martin from Victoria, B.C.
	Yes, sir.
	Hi, I wanted to ask you about William Thomas.
	Are you going to have him on again soon?
	Yes.
	Yes, I am.
	Okay.
	Hold on a sec.
	We have echo.
	Let me get rid of that.
	Yes, sure.
	I'm following the contrail story, as you know, very, very closely.
	Did you hear what I said before the top of the hour?
	No, I didn't.
	Sorry.
	I wanted to have my radio off.
	All right.
	No, that's fine.
	That's fine.
	Somebody mentioned the contrails, kind of off-topic, and I said, all right, I'll give you one back then, off-topic.
	The material contained in these contrails, we still don't know.
	We've not got good high-altitude samples, By everything we seem to be able to know so far, it's corrosive material.
	Corrosive material.
	Corrosive material.
	Now, let's all think together.
	What kind of problems have we had with corrosive material or corrosive effects in the air lately?
	I'm actually, I'm sorry, I'm just shocked.
	I'm just shocked to hear that, let alone.
	I'm not saying anything for sure.
	I'm just saying.
	I'm saying that.
	Could I tell you something about that?
	Sure.
	He had talked about them spraying.
	One theory he had was they were spraying to cover holes in the ozone layer.
	Like a patch.
	Yeah.
	And I had seen a picture of the ozone hole in the Antarctic and I was shocked to see one that was huge over the Northwest here.
	And I live just down the island from him.
	He lives up a ways from me.
	And I don't know exactly what's going on, but I'm absolutely shocked and amazed to see these huge contrails.
	And I'm wondering if they're spraying to make a patch, then that means that there are some undesirable effects.
	And one thing I wondered is if the ozone layer is not covered, maybe there's an immune suppressant effect.
	Because of the radiation that would be coming in.
	Yeah, well, we can imagine all kinds of terrible things, sir.
	All kinds of things.
	And that's all we're doing, really, is speculating until we get an air sample.
	And find out what this really is.
	We're all just sort of speculating.
	And what I said a little while ago is nothing more than that.
	Just speculation.
	First time caller on the line, you are on the air.
	Good morning.
	Wow, I made it!
	You made it!
	I made it.
	It's been a long time.
	Where are you?
	Chisholm, Minnesota.
	Chisholm, Minnesota.
	Glad to have you.
	Glad to be on.
	Colin, because you're a guest, kind of makes, the way he feels, it's kind of like the Bible has no credibility.
	Well, let's back up a little bit.
	How would you argue With the scientific studies that he laid out.
	You know, the ones at Duke, the double-blind studies, all the rest of it that you heard tonight.
	Pretty hard to argue with the science part of that.
	No, I wouldn't argue at all with it.
	I mean, if you read the Bible, in the Tower of Babel, that was the whole situation.
	If man has the ability to achieve anything, he sets his mind to.
	Fine.
	Fine.
	Then, if the Buddhists are praying, or meditating to attain a specific end, and it's working, that's a problem.
	Isn't it?
	Well, no.
	See, what the Bible says is, what he said is, man has the ability, not through the power of God, but man has the ability to achieve anything he sets his mind to.
	And that's why he scattered the nations.
	Then why are we praying to God?
	Well, because He also has the ability to override.
	It's very complicated.
	It really is.
	I mean, the scientific results, and I don't want to argue with your faith at all, but it would suggest that you don't have to believe in Christ, or God as we believe in Him, here in the Western world, to have the same effect.
	To heal, to do whatever it is.
	Well, no, and I agree with you.
	These things can be achieved through the power of man.
	It's like with your experiments that you've done with the weather.
	Sure.
	Okay, even in the New Testament it states, if a man has the belief of a mustard seed, he can move a mountain.
	I mean, a man has the ability to do these things.
	It's just that there's a higher power that's much more powerful.
	I've been trying to get a hold of you for such a long time, because it's such a complicated matter.
	It sure is.
	You've done your anti-Christ show.
	Oh, I have guests all over the spectrum, sir.
	I mean all over the spectrum.
	I would probably irritate the average Christian, because in my belief the average Christian is the problem with the Christian religion.
	Maybe you should rephrase that and just say, man is the problem with religion in the first place.
	Well, yeah, but the failure to follow what the book says, I mean, just the fact that they go by the name Jesus, which is not the accurate name, either is Yeshua, which I've heard a few of your guests refer to.
	It's actually Yahshua.
	Yeah, but why would the name matter?
	Why?
	Well, the book states, oh, probably, Three or four hundred times that he went through the effort to give us his name.
	But you know that just doesn't, I'm sorry, that's not logical to me.
	Maybe you can make it logical to me, but if by whatever name you pray to him and you're sincere and you love him, not using the name, then Would he really reject your pleas or your prayers based on the fact that you weren't saying his name right?
	Well, no.
	No, I mean, you could be using the wrong name and still have your prayers answered, but that doesn't mean that when you come into an understanding of truth that you should accept this truth and follow it.
	See, the thing about Buddha, you know, Muslim, all these other religions, the fact that the Bible has prophecies in it that have been fulfilled, and very accurately.
	Well, there are other religions, sir, I appreciate your call, that have had prophecy fulfilled very accurately as well.
	I don't know, we're off into territory that really, tomorrow night, it would be better served tomorrow night.
	Oh, wow, Cardline, you're on the air.
	Hi there, this is Brian from StarKIDO.
	Previous guests talked about the power of prayer, which I suppose has a hundred definitions as far as whether or not you're asking for something or which direction it's going in.
	Well, what if instead of petri dishes we were talking humans and instead of bacteria we were talking virus?
	And what if instead of we were hoping for something good we were hoping for something bad?
	The people that have AIDS and had AIDS and died so rapidly did so because of our negative thoughts.
	All of that could be true.
	So what does the Bible's belief in Armageddon do?
	Your suggestion, of course, is that it's a self-perpetuating thing.
	I've considered that really carefully, and don't reject it as absolutely possible.
	And so, the antithesis of everything that we've talked about tonight is certainly possible, and it may be that as you can cure people, you can kill them.
	In fact, in a way we touched on that with the doctor a little bit earlier, didn't we?
	Remember this from the other night?
	We'll be right back.
	Imagine there's no heaven.
	It's easy if you try.
	No hell below us.
	Above us only sky.
	Imagine all the people.
	We'll be right back.
	Wanna take a ride?
	Call Art Bell from west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	East of the Rockies 1-800-825-5033.
	First time callers may reach our deck 1-775-727-1222.
	Memories, huh?
	Line is open at 1-775-727-1295.
	And to call out on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
	You will come to me.
	Ah, good morning.
	Memories, huh?
	Memories from the last millennium.
	Good morning everybody, I'm Art Bell and this is Open Lines on Coast to Coast.
	Alright, here we go again, Open Lines.
	First time caller live, you're on the air, good morning.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	This is Jasmine from Iowa.
	Jasmine, that's a nice name.
	Thanks.
	You bet.
	My dad told me to listen to you.
	He did, huh?
	Yeah.
	I just met him after 25 years.
	Wow.
	And he's a semi-driver, so I think if he's awake, he might be listening.
	What's your dad's name?
	Mike.
	So if Mike was out there, he'd know you said hi.
	Yeah.
	I was just going to say that, well, he's a really deep thinker, and that is just Really neat to find that out and I can connect with him.
	But the Beatles song that you played and how the imagine there's no heaven and just to make your own reality here on earth to be a heaven.
	He said, I don't ask for much, do I?
	But I'm trying.
	You know, it's hard growing up.
	I've done a lot of that last couple of weeks.
	But yeah, it is hard growing up.
	Yeah.
	But it beats the alternative.
	Yeah, that's true.
	Alright, thank you and thanks Mike.
	See you later.
	That's very nice.
	Thinking is good for you.
	Sometimes thinking will make you angry.
	And I know that a lot of topics we cover here from various angles do a really good job of that, making you angry.
	But it's good for you.
	It's actually good for you in the end.
	What is it they say?
	No pain, no gain?
	I heard some variation of that not long ago called, No Pain, No Pain.
	Somebody who obviously doesn't like exercise.
	Well, let's hear the Rockies are on the air.
	Hello?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	This is Richard.
	Richard, hello.
	Keep that radio off.
	Sure.
	From Reno.
	Yes, sir.
	And I caught Whitley's show last Friday, or last Saturday.
	Yes.
	And something he said, Yes.
	I'd like to run something by you.
	He said that from his implant he would drive along the street and the street lamps would
	go out.
	Yes.
	And also, well, that same thing happens to me.
	There are a lot of people who have that.
	Yeah.
	I'd like to run something by you.
	What if we're here for an experiment and the aliens that we see, they're here to do experiments
	Right.
	But we're not, this isn't our solar system.
	We're from another solar system and they also had the guy on there Saturday who was talking about the pyramids.
	Right.
	And perhaps the pyramids are the propulsion system for this Earth that we're on.
	And the Earth came from that solar system that we're from.
	Well, that's a lot of imagining.
	I've been to the pyramids.
	They do appear to have been built by the Egyptians.
	We still don't know how.
	That's, you know, you don't reject anything out of hand, but that's pushing the envelope pretty far for me.
	But you never know.
	Truth is usually stranger than fiction, so who knows?
	First time on our line, you're on the air.
	Yes.
	This is Christopher from Pueblo, Colorado.
	Welcome to the program.
	Wow, this is quite an honor.
	I never expected to get through.
	And yet, here you are.
	I really enjoyed your show a lot, all around.
	Thank you.
	Such subjects that nobody else wants to mess with.
	Your last caller about healing, I'm not a healer or anything.
	I've been called to set up this place to do that here in Southern Colorado.
	It would be a really great thing to have, like he suggested, having a board kind of thing for healers.
	That way we could weed them out.
	It may come to that someday, but we're still pretty far away from that.
	Despite all the discussion, for example, on this show and other open-minded forums, we're still a long ways away.
	I don't think so.
	I think it's getting pretty clear pretty quick with the diseases we're getting.
	For a lot of people it is, but I'm talking about the medical scientific establishment that would have to be responsible for implementing this.
	I think the mainstream is going more spiritual now.
	It is!
	Oh, that is definitely the direction.
	There's no question about it.
	But I'm afraid that the establishment, the current establishment in science and medicine is, even though they may have a program in a college, even though Duke may be doing studies, and even though in 75% of the higher institutions of learning in medicine, there may be some sort of attention paid to this, It's still, believe me, on the back burner compared to where it needs to be based on what we think it can do.
	What's to the Rockies?
	You're on the air.
	Hi.
	Yes.
	Bill?
	Yes?
	Well, I'm enjoying your show.
	Thank you.
	Where are you?
	I'm calling from San Jose.
	Okay, you're going to have to speak up good and loud because you're not too loud.
	You hear me okay now?
	Much better.
	Okay.
	I'd like to make a little call to your callers to talk about Christian.
	About 20 minutes ago.
	The Bible is just only a map to showing human being direction.
	Buddhism, Catholic, or Christian.
	It's just only a, what I'm trying to explain, it's like a map showing what's bad, what is good.
	The real God is inside all of us.
	Well, there's a lot of people that would argue with that.
	They say hogwash.
	That's New Age hogwash.
	That God is the God of the Bible.
	You know, the one who had Jesus here.
	That's God.
	Yes.
	Not Buddha.
	Yes.
	No.
	Well, I'm trying to make a little comment.
	People, you can write in the Bible.
	I can write in the Bible.
	You never see a God face.
	So, in this world, We're not alone, like you just said a couple months ago.
	But the Bible is just telling us not to do bad.
	That's it.
	And the real God is inside all of us.
	So we have to do good and have to teach the young generation to be good.
	Oh, I think that's obviously correct, yes.
	Of course you're correct, except that the specific dogma And you may hear some of that tomorrow night.
	I'm not sure.
	We'll find out about Dr. Ross.
	The specific dogma for a fundamentalist is no fooling around.
	No other name is the one.
	No other god is the one.
	It specifically spells that out, and there's no wiggle room at all, believe me.
	I would tend to agree with you, though.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Yes.
	You're on the air.
	Turn your radio off.
	Took three hours.
	Took three hours, but you made it.
	Good morning.
	Yes, good morning.
	Where are you at?
	I beg your pardon?
	Where are you located at right now?
	Please turn your radio off, sir.
	Oh, yeah.
	Turn that radio off.
	It's messing it up.
	I'll wait while you turn it off.
	Sorry.
	Sorry.
	You turned it way down, but, um, where are you located at right now?
	Where do you think I am?
	Well, I think you're out somewhere in Nevada.
	I am somewhere in Nevada.
	Is that where you're located right now?
	Are you doing the program?
	Somewhere in Nevada.
	Okay.
	Anyway, I've been laying here listening to this, and it's very interesting about God.
	Oh, no.
	Here we go.
	Well, I think it's... I'm starting to get nervous.
	It's very interesting.
	I had a heart attack the day before Thanksgiving in 1986.
	Yes, sir.
	My heart stopped.
	I had three blockages in my main artery.
	Right.
	And it must have been my time to go, but I didn't learn until about six months ago that my church had went to the hospital and prayed and I was brought out of it.
	Then it's got to be fair to say it was not your time to go or you'd be gone.
	Four times I've had a stress test.
	Yesterday I had one and there were no blockages, no signs of ever having a blockage.
	My heart is healed.
	Well, I've been eating properly.
	You know, it's like, you know, this is going to be funny.
	So you modified your diet?
	Drano to cleaning out your zinc, vegetables, cleaning out your system to help your heart.
	But, um, a year ago, they was talking about... Excuse me, you didn't say Drano, did you?
	Drano in your zinc, it cleans out the clogs, vegetables... Wait a minute, hold it, hold it, please.
	What?
	Stop, hold it.
	What?
	Are you trying to tell me you've been taking Drano?
	No, no, no, no.
	I said, like, You're giving me a parallel.
	What I'm trying to get at is about a year ago I had a dream.
	I was in a big house with my family as children again.
	It was beautiful.
	I went to the left and there's a white door.
	I opened it and walked up the stairs.
	There's people up there in this room.
	I've got you.
	I've always wondered about that.
	where we at? I've always wondered about that. I was almost to heaven. I've got you. I've
	always wondered about that. In other words, in heaven or in an afterlife, how would those
	who preceded us appear? As old and wrinkled and near death as they
	Hi.
	they were the moment they died will not likely that would be very heavily with
	they would have to appear as we remembered them at their best
	so therefore i guess we create our own environment over there
	as to support first-time callers area code seven seven five seven two
	seven one two two two first-time caller line your honor
	wondering uh...
	you know he was relating stuff to uh...
	the bio uh... feedback and all that stuff
	Bye.
	I was wondering if there's any relation to like, well, myself personally, my body temperature is always hot.
	Yes.
	And I used to almost every metal object I would touch, I always get a shock.
	And you have those You have the radio on in the background.
	It's confusing you, sir.
	Okay, hold on a minute.
	Please, folks, have the radio nearby so you can turn it off the instant you get on the air, or it will make you sound confused.
	That's all there is to it.
	So he's got a hot body.
	Sorry about that.
	That's alright.
	There's those electrical wall socket testers, you know, that test the current and whatnot.
	Yes.
	I was wondering if that's a normal thing.
	For it to go on when someone touches it without it being plugged in the wall.
	Now you're telling me that you can turn on 110 volt electric wall socket testers?
	No, no.
	Just the amp readers.
	But with a steady current?
	Or with just a momentary... Oh, it's steady.
	It'll have like a little... No, that's not normal at all.
	And you should immediately apply to an electric company as somebody who can produce electricity.
	That is not normal.
	Now, there could be a quick, static discharge that would certainly show, had you acquired that much static, but if you're putting off real juice, then there are a lot of people who would like to talk to you.
	All we need is a whole bunch of people like you, and we don't need Con Ed anymore in New York.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Hi, R. It's Jason Perone.
	Hello.
	How you doing, man?
	I'm doing.
	You're doing?
	Hey, that was a real interesting story the other night about the Devil's Hole over there in Ash Meadows.
	Yes.
	Man, that's neat.
	I think so, too.
	I've been there once before.
	I didn't know that there was that much history there.
	There's real history there in more ways than one.
	I can imagine.
	Where would somebody find a book or something like that for that?
	Is there anything written?
	Do you know?
	I bet there's a lot on the internet.
	You know, if you just go up and do a search.
	Uh-huh.
	Okay.
	Might try to do that.
	All right, Jason.
	One other quick question?
	Yes.
	When are we going to get K-9 rolling?
	Well, that is a really good, good question.
	And the answer to it lies with the Federal Communications Commission.
	Now, we had some recent action and we thought it was going to happen right away.
	But, it still hasn't happened.
	So, it is the way our government moves, sir.
	All I can tell you is, I'll let you know.
	Yeah, well I'm sure hoping.
	I'll tell you what.
	I live closer to you and most of the people that can hear you better than other places.
	I know.
	It's sad, isn't it?
	I appreciate it.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Thank you for taking my call.
	Sure.
	You're going to have to yell at us, sir.
	You're not very loud.
	Okay.
	I'm sorry.
	Thanks for taking my call.
	It's been four or five years.
	Oh, well then.
	Gee, that's a long time.
	This is Terry from Arkansas.
	Yes, Terry.
	I have a question for Dr. Dobson.
	Oh, he's not here now.
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	You may ask me if you wish.
	Okay, I'll just make a comment.
	I've been in here on the redial.
	Was he speaking of prayer for alternative medicine?
	Meditation.
	In other words, prayer is a word.
	You could, you know, concentrate on something, to have an effect on something, like healing somebody, without it being specifically prayer as, you know, your local preacher might understand prayer.
	Well, okay.
	Do I have time to relate to your listeners what my experience has been?
	If you can do it quickly.
	Okay.
	I had a motorcycle accident in 1981.
	Yes, sir.
	I fractured my L3 vertebrae.
	And they put hardware in and they took them out two years later.
	And sometimes in the 90s, the vertebrae broke down, refractured.
	Right.
	And December 20th of 99, before Christmas, I decided to have surgery.
	The doctor held me up and said I was refractured and he took a bone autograft.
	Well, that's exactly, sir, what the good doctor was here talking about.
	I belong to a church and my parents, my dad's a deacon in the church and I had the church
	to pray for me and I was up on the second day.
	I was up and walking.
	Well that's exactly, sir, what the good doctor was here talking about.
	Not just with incidental evidence, but with specific evidence from double blind tests.
	Now people may wish for whatever their reason to reject this concept, but I think there is now sufficient scientific proof to believe that what the doctor said is absolutely true.
	Whether that's going to be accepted by conventional wisdom types or not, for a while, I don't know.
	I think the doctor may be a little optimistic about that, but I think he was dead on the money.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Art, this is... Turn the radio on, please.
	Turn off the radio.
	Oh, yes.
	Okay.
	I'm a radio guy just like yourself, and I'm not a ham, but I fool with radios and dabble and listen the short way.
	Right.
	I know better to keep my radio turned down.
	And I'm sure that the listeners will get a nice kick out of this and everything, but what happens if I turn my radio up all the way?
	Well, it would be repeating what you and I are saying six seconds later, and it would be horrendously confusing for you.
	No feedback loops or anything like that?
	There can't be feedback unless the delay system is not on.
	You see, I have a built-in delay system here, so if you say something terrible, I can push a button and it Gets erased.
	You understand?
	Okay.
	So the only way you can have feedback is without a delay system.
	Without a delay system, you'd hear a big scream.
	Yes.
	Now, I noticed with the pitch shifter on my effects processor, I couldn't make it feed back with a mic when I changed the pitch.
	Really?
	No.
	No matter how hard I tried to do it, it just wouldn't feed back.
	Now, you can sell that.
	Okay.
	Well, it's about time to say goodbye, Tom.
	Okay.
	Bye-bye.
	Well, to the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hi, Art.
	Hello.
	Yeah, I have to laugh every time you have that guy on about the Godspot in the brain.
	Yes.
	And I try to imagine how the guy who, you know, Dance around the campfire and chant.
	You know, that all the women in the clan would want to, you know, make him the lead breeder.
	You know, so his children... You know what?
	And where the young bucks that are out bringing home the bacon, you know, they're stuffing them for the guy who dances around and chants.
	That's right.
	You know, and you go on with this concept here, you know, how the guys who Had a better concept about death.
	Weren't as depressed as much.
	So they were better providers, and better breeders.
	You know?
	Listen, before we go any further down this trail, which we shouldn't anyway, the show is over.
	Tell everybody out there, good night.
	Good night.
	Yeah, that's it for tonight.
	Tomorrow night, Dr. Hugh Ross, folks.
	That should really be quite some program.

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