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June 15, 1999 - Art Bell

02:01:55

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Colm Kelleher - NIDS Investigations. Brookings Report

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	All right.
	Calm killer.
	Welcome to the program.
	Thank you very much, Art.
	You know I'm going to have to learn to deal with your name as the night goes on.
	Yeah, if you just say it slowly.
	It's actually a really common name in Ireland, but it doesn't seem to have traveled too well over here.
	It's a neat name.
	The way you say it, you say it for me.
	Call him Keleher.
	You have to say it with an Irish accent, otherwise it's meaningless.
	I guess so.
	And that's K-O-L-M, right?
	It's actually C-O-L-M.
	I'm sorry, C-O-L-M, yes.
	And Keleher is K-E-L-L-E-H-E-R.
	That's correct, yeah.
	Do you miss Ireland?
	Well, occasionally I do, especially around Christmas time.
	Usually people take two weeks off and really party it up.
	And occasionally I miss it, yeah, especially around Christmas.
	But I think there's a lot going on in North America, especially the United States.
	I came over here in 1984 and traveled, as you mentioned earlier, I traveled from city to city, mostly heading west.
	So it's been really enjoyable here.
	I've been friends with Bob Bigelow now for quite a few, many years actually.
	And he helped me found the original show that then turned into Dreamland, then called Area 2000.
	And so we've been in touch, you know, through the years.
	And about eight or nine months ago, he came to me and said that he was, and I'm sure he's discussed this with you, he's a great benefactor to ufology and the areas of paranormal.
	That's right.
	And he said, Do you have any thoughts on how I might productively use some money?
	And I thought, I said, let me think about it for a couple of days.
	And when I came back, I said, there's so much talk about the Brookings report that it would be really, really, really interesting if you were to, in effect, commission another Brookings report and Well, I don't know.
	A month or two went by and he came back to me and said, well, Brookings has said they're not equipped logistically to do such a thing right now.
	And then many months went by and I heard nothing.
	And then all of a sudden, I got this incredible press release from the National Institute for Discovery Science about a new survey out, a ROPR survey.
	And when I read it, I went, holy smokes, this has got Bob Bigelow written all over it.
	I picked up the phone and I called Bob and he said, well, you've got to have Coleman.
	He'll tell you about it.
	And so here you are.
	Here I am.
	So what drove this?
	What did we find out?
	What conclusions have you drawn of the Brookings report?
	When it was done and what it basically said?
	Well, it was a It came out in 1960, and the title of the report is Proposed Studies on the Implications of Peaceful Space Activities for Human Affairs.
	And it was written for NASA, actually, in 1960.
	And it doesn't directly pertain to extraterrestrial intelligence, except for a couple of sections.
	Earlier on in the report, It does talk about the need to study the implications of contact with extraterrestrial life.
	And then at the very end, it's a 200-page report, at the very end it sets out a series of recommendations.
	Mostly that this concept of contact with extraterrestrials is fundamentally important to humanity and could have a lot of wide-ranging implications and therefore needs to be studied.
	But I think, as we know, there's been very little follow-up on this Brookings Report.
	None that I know of, no.
	Didn't it more or less say, Colm, that society and institutions might not handle the information too well?
	It implied that, certainly, yes.
	And it called for more studies saying, I think I can quote a small section.
	It said, while the discovery of intelligent life in other parts of the universe is not likely in the immediate future, it could nevertheless happen at any time.
	Whenever it does occur, its consequences for Earth's attitudes and values may be profound.
	Hence, a long-term research effort which would aid in preparing for this possibility would be very useful.
	And it goes on to state that specific studies on sociology would be called for.
	In 1997, Professor Al Harrison from UC Davis wrote a really interesting book called After Contact, and it was about the human response to ET life.
	It came out in 1997, and this was one of the first rigorous looks at this question since the Brookings had brought up the subject.
	Many people called me have said that the Brookings report, in their view, Would have been, at that time at least, sufficient evidence or study result for the government, should there be contact, to justify keeping it secret.
	Would you agree with that, generally?
	That the government would interpret it that way?
	Well, they did mention in the report that A lot of studies should be done on whether or not the results should be released to the public, and if they are released to the public, how they should be released to the public.
	Yes, exactly.
	They actually mentioned that in the report, but it was a one-sentence thing.
	Obviously, that would need to be very carefully looked at.
	Now, that was 39 years ago.
	That's right.
	Here comes 2000, 39 years ago.
	Now we have this new Roper Organization Report.
	Were you involved at the inception of the idea to go ahead with the Roper Report?
	Well, yes, actually.
	We started off, NIDS staff started off with a series of 52 questions which we gradually
	over many months and in consultation with Professor Al Harrison from UC Davis who is
	a psychologist, we winnowed them down eventually to 13 questions which we then put on our website
	at accessnv.com.
	Okay, we've got, by the way, I think, I'll check on that right now.
	You do?
	Since my webmaster is in the hospital, I can't say for sure, but I can check very quickly as we speak, and I believe we have a link up to you.
	Oh, good.
	So, folks, you can go to my website if you want to see the complete results of this incredible Roper survey.
	Yeah.
	Go to my website and just link over.
	You're going to get a lot of traffic suddenly.
	I hope you're prepared for a lot of traffic.
	Well, actually, we're hoping for a lot of traffic.
	You are, huh?
	Yeah, because I think the more people see this poll, the better.
	Okay, yes, the link is there.
	Is it good?
	Okay.
	Yes.
	Well, the original 13 questions were put up on our website several months ago.
	and then from those 13 questions six questions were sent to the Roper organization. Oh six? Yeah
	so that we could compare the you know the scientific study that Roper did with our
	non-scientific internet study. Now we have about a thousand replies to the internet study.
	The Roper organization did 1,971 just under 2,000 people.
	Actually, that is a large survey.
	They do a lot of surveys for political things that have far fewer in the survey with a higher error margin.
	I noticed your error margin was way down at 2.5%.
	That's right.
	2.5%.
	So that's a very healthy sample.
	It was a good one.
	Yeah, basically what it says is that any trends in this survey are significant.
	You know, and that they're real.
	Yes, oh, I understand.
	So, it was... I don't know exactly how Roper does what they do.
	Was it completely random?
	What they do is they try to match the male to female demographics, age, you know, household income.
	They try to get a fairly representative demographic section of the population and they go, I think
	they've got a lot of practice at it and then they
	They divide it up into sections. They ask the questions and then they give us the results
	But I think looking through the figures they have a very representative
	demographic section You know political affiliations, marital status, they're
	all pretty even Okay, well the questions were extremely provocative and the
	first one that I note that is in the press release and We're obviously going to talk about some here that aren't
	even in the release But the first one was that one out of every four Americans
	Think that most people would quote totally freaked out and panic and quote if such evidence were confirmed
	Now, I'll be back.
	But that's not the end of the story to that, is it?
	No, it's not.
	We found a very obvious difference between how people felt they would handle contact themselves versus how they thought other people would handle it.
	They thought 1 out of 4 would freak out, but when asked about themselves... 38%, actually 32% said they would be fully prepared to handle it.
	17% said they would have to rethink their place in the universe.
	And 16% said they would be seriously shaken.
	But yeah, they said that 1 out of 4, 25% thought that most other people would totally freak out and panic.
	But if you look at the figures of what they thought other people would do, 87% thought that other people would be very concerned or act very strangely or act irrationally.
	In other words, Only 13% thought that other people would handle it in a rational manner, versus 32% who thought that they themselves would handle it in a rational manner.
	That's a major disconnect.
	It is, and how do you interpret it?
	In other words, what do you interpret that to mean?
	I would say either they don't have a very high regard for how other people would react, or else they haven't thought about the question very deeply.
	They have a much higher confidence in how they themselves would go about it, but they have very little confidence in other people.
	And that's to say that we have a better opinion of ourselves than we do our fellow man.
	That's probably true, yeah.
	Isn't that interesting?
	Do you think, so then you're left to wonder, You're really left to wonder, aren't you?
	It's still fair to say, I think you said what, 16% in the second survey of the people that were questioned about their own feelings?
	So it still is near 20%, not that far away from 20%.
	20% not that far away from 20% Now if you were if you were working
	comb for for FEMA Right.
	Or, you know, some organization that would be responsible for dealing with this kind of thing should it happen.
	Would this be sufficiently worrisome for you that if you had that information in your hand, you would not release it?
	That's a straight on question.
	Personally, if I was working for FEMA, I would definitely try to release it.
	You would?
	Yes, because it's essentially a wake-up call for further studies in this area.
	I'm going to pull the same survey question on you.
	Do you think that the present people who are working for FEMA would release it?
	I would hope they would.
	I know that FEMA is mostly focused on emergency management At the level of tornadoes and hurricanes.
	Just to give you one example, the amount of research that has gone into the low probability of an asteroid striking this planet, for example, versus the amount of study that has not gone into the consequences of extraterrestrial contact, there's a pretty big disconnect there too.
	We feel that the results in this Roper poll ...are a definite wake-up call to other institutions, academic and non-academic, to start looking at this question seriously.
	Hold on, we're at the bottom of the hour incredibly already.
	We've got lots of time on the radio, fortunately, and a lot to talk about.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	Once again, Dr. Colm Killeher.
	Pretty good?
	Yeah, getting better.
	As I listen to your accent, you know, I can slowly assimilate, maybe by the end of the show I'll have it right.
	Here's the way I think about it a little bit, Doctor, and maybe you can help me here.
	If we were to be visited by extraterrestrials, it would be reasonable to assume that they have technology That is greater than ours, since we can't go visit the other guys right now.
	Is that fair to say?
	I think that would be reasonable.
	Uh-huh.
	Now, they might be really warm, fuzzy little E.T.-type creatures, but it's also at least reasonable to assume they might not be.
	So, I guess what I'm saying is, wouldn't some fear be rational?
	Well, that's partly what the poll began to explore, because it really does depend on how the first contact is orchestrated.
	You know, people's responses were dependent on a generic contact, but if you had, for example, a series of scientists from the National Academy of Science giving a press conference saying, we have discovered unambiguous evidence, And the information filtered out that way versus a panicky reporter on CNN reporting something really big and strange in the sky.
	And, you know, a lot of confusion around that.
	People's reactions obviously would be very different.
	You are so right.
	If CNN said something large had been spotted Over Cincinnati, a definite UFO just hovering over Cincinnati or any other American city.
	Yeah.
	There would be some panic, wouldn't there?
	Yes, definitely.
	And we think that these kind of questions really need to be addressed because, quite frankly, if ET contact does happen, we really have no idea of predicting how it would unfold.
	And the consequences would reverberate right through society.
	I mean, how would technology stocks on the Dow Jones do, for example?
	You know, if a superior technology arrived, how would our fossil fuel industry react?
	I don't know.
	If first contacts were made with Bill Gates, it might be all right.
	Yeah.
	Things would be smoother that way, yeah.
	You'll have to excuse me every now and then, it's very serious stuff, but I can't resist.
	It says that, and this one really, really tossed me, it says that 80%, now in polls, even in politics, rarely do you get any result that 80% of the American people agree on.
	80% of influential Americans, and I need to ask you about that, think the U.S.
	government would classify or suppress evidence of extraterrestrial life.
	Now, did Roper consider all of those surveyed to be influential Americans, or why did you use this line?
	Well, Roper, for the last 30 or 40 years, have been doing, as you know, a lot of polling, and they've constructed a description of the political social activist, which comes from a lot of their questions on how involved these people are in political organizations.
	Have they held political office?
	Have they written letters to the editors of newspapers?
	So they define a subset of the American population as influential or political social activists.
	And we were very, very surprised by this.
	Overall, the percentage of Americans who thought that the U.S.
	government would classify or suppress information was in the low 70s.
	I believe it was 72%, but the influentials were actually higher.
	So these are the trendsetters, the people who determine trends.
	And that really surprised us that it was higher than the rest of the American population.
	Again, let me do what I probably shouldn't do and turn the question on you.
	You are an influential American.
	You have a doctorate.
	You're immersed in studies of this very thing.
	And so you're the perfect person to ask, really, have you considered yourself, doctor, whether our government, in your opinion, would suppress evidence, if they had it, of extraterrestrial life?
	I think they're capable of suppressing the evidence, but we as an organization, we don't have any evidence that they are suppressing evidence.
	Well, but that wasn't a question really.
	I feel that they're capable of suppressing, yes, certainly I do.
	Well, that is almost the full answer.
	Let me push you a little further.
	Let me help you out here.
	I'm convinced that, you know, our government operates on secrecy.
	I mean, it thrives on secrecy.
	Black budgets, secret projects, new aircraft, things that are classified.
	A lot of our government's power comes from keeping secrets.
	And a lot of power and money is shifted around that way.
	So, isn't it logical, when you know that, to imagine that they would Keep it, at least for some period of time, secret.
	Our organization has no evidence that they are, but it's definitely a possibility that they are capable of suppressing the information.
	Robert Bigelow, as you mentioned, is Executive Director of our organization and he's been in this game a long, long time.
	Yes.
	Way before NIDS was formed.
	He formed NIDS late 1995.
	He uses the analogy of the whale, of a whale swimming through the water for the U.S.
	government and a small parasite attached to the whale as being a small group that would have knowledge of these things.
	So the whale is not in any way knowledgeable about the parasite that's stuck on its back, but yet the parasite is tied in with private industry and is actually involved in suppressing knowledge of ET.
	That's an interesting way to put it.
	Yeah, it's an interesting analogy, but he certainly is, from the people he's talked to, Over his long history in this topic, he's pretty convinced.
	But our organization doesn't have direct evidence.
	Well, I'm not even sure that Bob has.
	Well, let me think that one over a little.
	I certainly don't have any evidence, absolute evidence, that our government is aware of extraterrestrial presence.
	I think, though, almost Without a doubt, they would keep it secret.
	That is my opinion, simply my opinion.
	Anyway, it goes on.
	When asked what they thought UFOs were, this is really, really interesting.
	25% thought they were alien spaceships.
	12% thought they were secret government programs.
	I thought that was really low, by the way, the 12%.
	9% said hallucinations.
	19% said UFOs are normal events that are simply misinterpreted by witnesses, and 7% said travelers from other dimensions.
	Now, there's a lot of surprises here.
	I found this 12% to be amazing.
	I mean, I have always thought myself, Doctor, About half possible that it's our own government, because I've seen a craft right above my own head.
	And the other half, that it could be others.
	But just 19%?
	19%?
	Well, we were 12% we were pretty surprised that 25% plus 7% the travelers from other dimension that makes a
	total of 32% of the of the American population Think it's either
	extraterrestrials or interdimensional travelers, you know to coin a term
	Yes.
	Whereas one third don't know, and then the other third are really made up of secret government programs, hallucinations and normal events.
	In other words, there's something that present day science and technology can explain easily.
	So it really cuts down into three different categories.
	Yeah, you're right.
	One-third think it's something exotic or esoteric.
	One-third think it's something explicable and one-third don't know.
	We have nothing, though, to compare this to.
	In other words, your survey has gone far beyond in this particular area.
	The Brookings report never even attempted to Give us these kind of figures.
	So we have nothing to compare this to, and we have no way of knowing whether this was always the case.
	That's right.
	What do you think?
	If we did another survey like this in, say, another 10 years, Doctor, would you think these numbers would change?
	It would be very interesting, actually, to do another survey down the road, because you're right.
	This is a single data point, and we really need more data points.
	That's really why we're trying to encourage other institutions to maybe take up the baton.
	Bob Bigelow sponsored two surveys previously through the Roper Organization on extraordinary experiences.
	One was conducted in 1991 and one was conducted in 1998.
	and there were substantial differences in trends between the two surveys.
	So this being a single data point, so to speak, would be definitely worth repeating down the road.
	Would it be your guess that if we were to do one in ten years,
	there would be a fairly major change in this particular survey,
	if the same questions were asked?
	A lot of our research is going out and interviewing high quality eyewitnesses
	with respect to what they've seen.
	And a lot of the reports that we've been getting are consistent with item number one, which is, do you think UFOs are alien spaceships?
	A lot of the eyewitnesses that are coming to us are telling us stories that are consistent with this.
	So if that trend continues, you might expect that that category may increase over time.
	Now, perhaps one unintended consequence of what you have done here with this survey
	is that our government will utilize it.
	In other words, you have done something that our government officially really couldn't do without creating a panic.
	You've done something they can't do.
	So obviously they are going to assimilate this information.
	My question is, what do you think they will conclude as a result of this?
	Well, I hope they conclude the same thing that we've concluded, which is we really need to get into this in a much more deep way.
	We need to expand.
	Somebody needs to expand the surveys.
	One of the things that was really interesting that I found was we did a first generation statistical analysis on the results and Professor Harrison at UC Davis did pretty well all of it, but there's really strong differences between male and females, for example, in the way they answer some of these questions.
	In what way?
	Well, for example, In the question of undeniable evidence of the existence of advanced extraterrestrials, would you be fully prepared to handle it?
	38% of males said yes, they would, but only 26% of females said they would be fully prepared to handle it.
	That's a very, very big difference.
	It is.
	It is.
	Any thoughts on why?
	I think it's the male macho They would be fully prepared to handle it.
	It actually is consistent right down the categories.
	For example, 11% of males would be seriously shaken and 21% of females would be seriously shaken.
	That's a very statistically significant difference too.
	2% of males would be extremely distraught and 7% of females would be extremely distraught.
	So overall The women would be more seriously shaken and more distraught.
	And less fully prepared to handle it.
	We think that's very significant.
	It is very significant.
	You are, you're right.
	It's very significant and kind of a sad commentary on men, in a sense.
	In other words, if it's because they're macho and, you know, who cares, those little guys will squash them like bugs.
	Yeah.
	I mean, really, when you think about it, intellectually, they would have far superior technology.
	So, men, if they were smarter, Well, it's also interesting, in the first question we asked was, you know, if there was an ET landed, who would you choose to make first contact?
	8% of men said religious leaders they would choose, but 13% of women said they would choose the religious leaders.
	And that's another statistically significant, that's actually a very statistically significant difference.
	And we've found so far, we've found 49 really interesting trends that are embedded within these data and that's really only a first generation take on the numbers.
	But I think this is actually a demographic goldmine.
	Oh it is?
	It is, and we're far from done.
	I guess 20% said first contact.
	They would choose to make first contact with the military.
	Yeah, they would send in the military.
	20%, huh?
	And then 29% said scientists.
	Yeah, it's interesting.
	If you break that down with household income, that 20%, It's pretty dramatic, too.
	22% of people who earn under $15,000 a year would send in the military, whereas only 11% of those earning over $75,000 a year would send in the military.
	And that's actually reversed if you're sending in the scientists.
	38% of the people earning more than $75,000 would send in the scientists, while only 24% uh... of under who are earning under fifteen thousand and
	in the fact that so
	the trends and their right across the you know the uh...
	spectrum of education male-female and there's uh...
	demographic trends in the ethnic groups that we haven't uh... addressed yet on
	we really um... i think need to uh...
	to sit down and uh... and go through it with a fine tooth comb
	All right.
	Hold it right there.
	We're at another break point.
	We'll be right back.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	Back now to our guest.
	Doctor, I'm going to have a hard question for you here.
	Maybe it's easy.
	Remember a little while ago we were talking about the fact that really our government couldn't do a survey like this, you know, without creating panic just in the doing of the survey.
	That's pretty fair to say, don't you think?
	Obviously, there would be concern.
	Yeah.
	People would say, why are they doing it?
	There must be a reason.
	Now, people call me all the time here on the program.
	Call them and they say, are you a CIA?
	Are you CIA?
	And I got so sick of answering the question.
	Oh, they asked you, were you a CIA agent?
	Yeah, that's right.
	They ask me all the time.
	And I got so sick of being asked that I finally said, yep.
	You know, and then there's a long silence on the line.
	And they say, thank you, goodbye.
	And so that's the way I've handled it.
	But see, many of us would imagine that since the government could not do a survey like the one you have just done, some people would imagine That the government would come to an organization like yours to get such a survey done.
	So, are you working for the government?
	Well, it's a very easy answer to that question.
	The answer is no.
	Okay.
	I think neither NIDS or Robert Bigelow has ever been affiliated with a government organization.
	You understand why I would ask.
	Oh, I can understand it, yeah, because we've seen, obviously, rumors to that effect on the internet, but we are a private research organization and we're fully funded by Robert Bigelow.
	We don't have any government grants or we don't have any ties to the U.S.
	government whatsoever.
	So now, let's finish up a little bit with a survey.
	Um, the way it breaks down as far as first contact is concerned.
	Oh, by the way, regarding first contact, I just ran a commercial and I was talking about first contact and there were nasty little creatures.
	How much do you think the media, uh, what sort of influence does it have with the various movies that always show aliens?
	Uh, well, actually there's two classes.
	One show them as warm, fuzzy little guys and the other, the others show them, um, You know, usually eating people or something awful like that.
	Destroying cities and, you know, Independence Day, that kind of movie.
	Right.
	How much influence do you think popular media has on the answers that you're getting in these surveys?
	Well, we think it's a strong influence.
	Your previous question about a second survey may actually bear that out, but You remember the Steven Spielberg movies in the 70s?
	Oh, of course.
	Close Encounters and E.T.
	were very, very benign and warm and fuzzy.
	Yes.
	But then we've got Independence Day, we have Mars Attacks landing in Pahrump, and they're zapping people at the welcoming committee.
	I know.
	There's a definite trend towards hostility.
	And even the X-File movie, the E.T.' 's were pretty hostile.
	Did you find it more than just a little suspicious that they destroyed Pahrump?
	I mean, of all places.
	I thought it was more than a little suspicious that they landed in Pahrump.
	Yeah, me too.
	That threw me a bit.
	Obviously, that was bowing to you.
	I don't know about bowing.
	It was kicking me in the butt, probably.
	Anyway, has your organization on the more serious side for a moment uh... considered
	from your point of view as an organization that studies these kinds of
	things in what way do you imagine first contact
	uh... most likely would occur the people that we're talking to uh...
	out in the in the southwestern part of the united states uh...
	we have uh... we've talked to literally over a hundred people now admitted stop in the
	last couple of years And these are carefully calibrated eyewitnesses.
	They're reporting crafts that seem to be interacting, in other words, being very visible.
	There is no obvious hostility.
	So there's no perception of hostility from the people we've been talking to.
	But then again, it's neither benign nor hostile.
	It's a keep your distance interaction.
	And that's really right across the board what we've been seeing and what we've been hearing from other people.
	So obviously there's going to be questions about credibility of the eyewitnesses and credibility of people that we've had connections with, but that's what we've been getting.
	So there's really, I think it's an open book in terms of what first contact will look like, in terms of how the day after is going to be played.
	No matter what people think right up till now, I think The overwhelming effect will be the sequence of events during the 24 hours and the 48 hours following an unambiguous contact.
	And as I've said, if you've got a CNN reporter who's very, very panicked and confused, it's going to play that way.
	We feel that the media will have a very, very important role, especially with live reporting on TV,
	if something dramatic like this would happen.
	Well, yes.
	It's hard for me to... I mean, could you draw a picture of what you think would occur if CNN... Let's say that the anchor on CNN only appeared a little confused, perhaps a little concerned.
	You know, they try to maintain their composure somewhat, but let's say that it broke on CNN.
	Yeah.
	Can you draw a picture of what the next 12, 24, 48 hours would be like, in your opinion?
	Well, there would be so many variables because the initial contact, if it appeared on TV, then obviously who would get there second would really Who would be able to spin the information to the public in the next wave?
	In other words, would it be government?
	Would it be military?
	Would it be a scientific organization?
	And that's really the first part of our poll.
	If it was the military, or if CNN turned to the scientists, or the religious leaders, it would be a totally different spin.
	Or to a private organization that had planned for such a contingency.
	All of these different variables would have extremely different outcomes.
	It's like a region of maximum instability, where small variables really have a major effect on the outcome.
	There are multiple different scenarios that would unfold from those initial first points.
	If there were a craft hovering over a city, what sort of reaction would you expect?
	And I know I'm asking things that you really can't answer, but what kind of reaction would you expect from our military?
	I mean, would we have jets and helicopters and military deployments?
	Yeah, I would find that enormously difficult to answer because I really have no idea if even contingency plans exist for that kind of thing in the military.
	We can see the way it played out in the movies, but I really would have little or no information on how it would play out in real life in terms of how the military would react, but we do have anecdotal reports from the 1950s of alleged intrusions into airspace by unidentified flying objects, and we have quite a few reports of military sending up response aircraft.
	I would imagine something of that ilk might happen.
	Sure, I would too.
	The next obvious question is, would you expect the military to be on a reconnaissance only mission, or would they react aggressively?
	In other words, have we continued to evolve intellectually to the point where We wouldn't shoot first and ask questions later.
	I would hope that it would be the latter because it's a very, very difficult question, but I would hope it would be the latter.
	I feel that part of the issue involving contact would be very much dependent on our spiritual versus technical evolution and maturity.
	There are definite questions in terms of humanity being very technologically advanced and very culturally and spiritually not too advanced.
	And that dichotomy may play a role in, for example, an E.T.
	civilization connecting with us and how they would connect with us if they see overt hostility, which they would obviously on the planet right now.
	It might temper the way they would contact us.
	So it would be a really complex interplay between their ability to survey what's happening
	with us and our ability to react in a mature way.
	Well as you pointed out, first of all it is absolutely reasonable to assume an advanced
	civilization, preparing to make contact with us, would first observe us before making contact.
	It's a fair assumption at least from our point of view.
	Yeah, we think that's a fair assumption and a lot of people appear to think that actually there's some evidence that that may have happened in the past and may actually still be happening.
	And may be the reason that we have not yet had absolute contact.
	Would you agree with that?
	In other words, I personally don't think that's an unreasonable assumption.
	Um, I, I, if I put my myself in ET's shoes, so to speak, um, looking at this planet, there's
	there's 35 or somewhere between 35 and 40 conflicts, armed conflicts that are going on
	right now, which are very easily easy to monitor.
	That's right.
	What happened in the Yellow Sea earlier today.
	Good example.
	Yeah, for example.
	India, India and Pakistan, both nuclear capable.
	That's right, in the last couple of days.
	Kashmir could be some kind of horrible showdown.
	Yeah, there's a war in Eritrea right now.
	There's major conflict right now on the planet, which would be very easy to monitor.
	So if I were in E.T.' 's shoes, I would tend to take a softly, softly approach.
	Because we may be, as humans, we may be the Klingons of the galaxy.
	What a thought!
	Yeah, we may be considered extremely warlike and very dangerous to approach.
	That's obviously pure speculation.
	There's really no data that we have at all to support that.
	What I'm saying is pure speculation.
	Okay, well let's stay with speculation for a moment.
	Do a lot of it on this show.
	If they were advanced technologically, is it reasonable or too much of a leap to assume that they would be advanced from a social point of view as well?
	In other words, evolved past violence?
	Well, there is a school of thought that would say that there's sort of a self-limiting feature of evolution where societies or civilizations destroy themselves if they're insufficiently spiritually aware.
	In other words, if the gap between technology and spiritual or that kind of evolution Well, it's kind of like a self-limiting part of evolution.
	In other words, that implies that any ETs who surpass that will have controlled the ratio between technological and spiritual evolution.
	Indeed.
	One of our nation's great theoretical physicists, Dr. Michio Kaku, who I interview quite frequently, He lays out several different levels of civilization from 0 to 1 to 2 to 3 and says that we are indeed a type 0 which would use coal and the various things that are on the planet to generate energy, right?
	And it is his view that very, very few civilizations, and there are many he contends, Would you ever make it out of type 0 to type 1?
	In other words, past the discovery and use or abuse of element 92?
	Right.
	Would you agree with that hypothesis?
	Well, it's always intrigued me as it has others that The explosions in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were followed about two years later by a vast increase in the number of sightings being reported by people, in North America especially.
	Actually, that is about when the sightings began, isn't it?
	47.
	Yeah, well, obviously there were sightings before that, but there seems to have been an increase since 1945.
	Whether or not that has any direct bearing, we don't know, but it's compelling.
	It's tempting to speculate that there is a link.
	Well, it may be ridiculous to stick with Star Trek, but a few things in Star Trek stick out.
	And one of them, of course, is what was called the Prime Directive.
	And that would be non-interference with a developing civilization.
	Right.
	And it seems quite reasonable that if there had been a socially and technologically evolved civilization that had been watching us, there would be a sort of a prime directive.
	Is that reasonable?
	That's really getting into territory that we're, you know, that we have nothing to go on.
	Always depend on me to lead you right away from...
	But it is an intriguing question.
	It has to do with contact.
	It's a very interesting concept because if, for example, that the contact is being delayed because of exactly that, the Prime Directive, we're being watched, for example, because we're We're still at this level zero that you talked about.
	And I presume the level zero also includes overt hostility among nations.
	Then maybe, if there is a prime directive, then our future really needs to be worked out by ourselves before we can move on.
	And that actually is quite a challenge for us.
	It sure is.
	All right.
	When we get back, we'll continue to talk about the survey.
	You're about to hear some secrets, or things that up until now have been secret.
	I've known about a few of them for some time, but I signed a paper saying that I couldn't talk about them.
	When we get back, to some degree, in a veiled kind of way, we are going to talk about them.
	So prepare to hear some things you've not heard before.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell, Thank you.
	It was many, many, many months ago, Bob Bigelow came out to see me and he had me sign a non-disclosure agreement, which I signed, and he provided me with a lot of information about some of the work that he's been doing, which is incredible.
	I mean, some of it is really, really incredible.
	And so, since I don't know what I can and can't say, I'm going to just ask you to outline what you can tell us.
	Now, ladies and gentlemen, we are not going to identify specific locations with what you're about to hear, because to do so would be to compromise the continuing research that is going on.
	So we're going to give you only general locations.
	But be assured, I know these specific locations.
	Doctor, what can you tell us about the work that's been done?
	Firstly, I'd just like to mention that we, as an organization, have been conducting detailed investigations into these anomalous phenomena, primarily in the southwestern part of the United States.
	Just about three years now, since most of the staff were hired about three years ago.
	And in that process, what we're really interested in doing in the field investigations are trace cases.
	In other words, phenomena that leave traces.
	And we've assembled a group of nationally accredited labs in North America that we feel can do an excellent quality analysis on any physical traces that we find.
	And over the last three years we have evolved our ability to analyze, whether it be biological analysis, chemical analysis, or veterinarian pathology.
	We feel that we're at the stage now where we can do a good job on most analysis.
	So one of the things we're interested in is asking people to connect with us, contact us if they feel they have cases
	that are of interest.
	And they can connect with us via our telephone which is 702-798-1700 or our email which is,
	as I said, physical traces is what we've evolved our ability to analyze. And we feel that we do
	a relatively good job. Can you tell us what you have found with regard to
	any physical trace information so far? We can...
	We can certainly say that in the animal pathology arena, we've looked at close to a dozen cases and we've eliminated probably over half of those of having a conventional explanation where the animal died of Infectious diseases or poison or something else which is easily explicable.
	This is the investigation of the so-called animal mutilation and we have a Dr. George on that who is a veterinarian pathologist on our staff who does a lot of that but we have found in the remainder of the animals evidence that we feel Rules out infectious diseases or attacks by predators or scavengers.
	We've done a lot of analysis in that area.
	We're fairly confident that there are cases where animals, especially cattle, die where the explanations are not the standard explanations that most people hear about.
	All right, that's what you've ruled out.
	In other words, half of them can be thought to be disease of one sort or another, even something weird, but explainable.
	The other half?
	The other half.
	Let me give you an example then.
	Last October, we investigated a case of a three-year-old cow that was found dead by the owner, and it had been in very good health the previous day.
	We went through the full necropsy, which is the autopsy, and then we did toxicology, histology, chemical analysis.
	And then we followed that with another series of analyses.
	And the bottom line of what we found, we found several things.
	That there were several cuts on the animal around the eye that had been done with a sharp instrument that was very, very sharp.
	In other words, under a microscope, The hair could be seen to be cut and we have a report of this on our website if anybody cares to look but we found an unusual bluish gel also on the animal and this is where the trace analysis that I was talking about comes into play because we went through multiple levels of analysis and we established that this compound contains formaldehyde and it also contains a phenol-like compound which is
	Fairly good evidence that the blue gel was added to the animal rather than coming from the animal, and that's kind of important.
	We also found that the animal's heart was shredded.
	Excuse me?
	Shredded?
	Shredded.
	Yet the sac that contains the heart, which is called the pericardium, was actually intact.
	We also found the animal tested positive on two different pregnancy tests, but there was no fetus, and there was no evidence of Spontaneous abortion.
	Let's back up a little bit for me.
	I shredded heart, now shredded heart, as a result of a physical instrument having shredded the heart or a There was no entry wound into the heart and actually the sac, the pericardium surrounding the heart was intact.
	So the person who investigated this described the heart as being in the same condition as having been shot with a bullet, but there was no evidence of an entry wound.
	Obviously, this is in the realm of difficult to explain.
	This is not the kind of thing that you can explain away.
	I was about to ask you to try to explain it with your background.
	We really, at the moment, have not been able to come up with an explanation of how that was done because we looked at the Hyde very carefully.
	There was no effect on the Hyde, so whatever was done We are relatively sure that it came from the outside rather than the inside of the animal.
	In other words, it wasn't a standard infectious disease kind of thing that happened from within the animal.
	Something happened outside the animal that caused this.
	Wow.
	We also found that the animal's liver had very low copper levels and that's actually something that's coming out more and more in these cases.
	And we have no explanation for that either.
	What we're trying to do is data gather and then put it out in reports so that other people who are in the same business can start comparing notes because we find that a lot of these investigations, we're doing stuff that other people haven't done.
	I know.
	Doctor, Bob Bigelow obviously has resources to do this and there is an undisclosed location that is very carefully being
	monitored, video surveillance monitored and there was a story that could be told about that video
	surveillance. Are you able to tell that?
	What I can do actually is I can give you a flavor of several incidents that have happened
	in the region of the southwest in the last couple of years.
	Alright.
	Again, what we're looking for is people who are listening who have had similar things happen maybe to get in contact with us to see how widespread these are.
	Let me describe the first incident that happened.
	Two investigators that were staking out an area that was considered a hot spot.
	In other words, there are several hot spots in the southwest of the United States.
	One of which you've just mentioned.
	Both of these people had a lot of experience.
	They were well equipped.
	One had a camera, standard 35mm camera with infrared film.
	The other had generation 3 night vision binoculars.
	So they were on a ridge overlooking this area that they were monitoring.
	It was about 2 a.m.
	in the morning on a moonlit night and they were just kind of packing up because it had been a very quiet, uneventful night.
	One of them, about 200 feet below, they were on a ridge overlooking this area.
	200 feet below, one of them spots a A small yellowish pale light.
	First of all they thought it was a reflection of a piece of glass on the ground or something.
	But then the light began to expand.
	Picture a very pale yellowish light that's getting bigger and bigger.
	So one of the investigators started assembling his camera that he had just disassembled.
	In order to take long exposure infrared shots of this light, the other one switched on the night vision binoculars and the guy with the night vision binoculars saw that rather than just being a light which was constantly expanding and had now reached about a diameter of four feet, through the night vision binoculars it was obvious that it was a tunnel.
	What he was seeing was actually a tunnel of light.
	A tunnel?
	A tunnel, and this was about two feet off the ground, apparently stationary, and through the night vision binoculars, which really picks up everything very, very well, he could see that it was basically stationary in the air, a tunnel of what looked like just light, bright light.
	Let me stop you.
	I'm trying to picture this mentally.
	A tunnel would imply a brighter outline with a descending amount of brightness toward the center.
	That's how the eye would perceive a tunnel.
	Well, what I'm saying is that the investigator that didn't have the night vision binoculars could just see a four-foot circular expanse of light.
	Through the night vision, it was obvious that that light had depth.
	In other words, that it wasn't just an expanse of light.
	It had depth and it seemed to be receiving.
	But he began reporting that there was movement inside this tunnel of light.
	So, he began reporting that there was movement inside this tunnel of light.
	So, the guy with the camera started taking long exposure pictures.
	Then, through the night vision binoculars, he sees, first of all, a hand, what looks like a hand, appearing.
	And then a second hand appears.
	And what he's looking at is something that's pulling itself along this tunnel of light, which is suspended two feet above the ground.
	And the only reason that he's able to see this is because he's looking at with generation 3 night vision binoculars.
	Yes.
	Then he sees a head coming through the tunnel and he realizes that it's a very black looking being or humanoid that's pulling itself through the tunnel.
	The being pulls itself slowly out using its arms to brace itself on the edge of the tunnel.
	It looks like solid through the night vision.
	He ends up on the ground two feet below, having pulled himself out of the tunnel, stands up and then vanishes into the night.
	Meanwhile, the guy with the camera is still busily taking long exposure night vision, or long exposure infrared shots.
	They look through the night vision, they search the area looking for any trace of this humanoid.
	There's no trace, so they go down to where the light, by the way, slowly begins to shrink after this humanoid emerges and then basically goes back to nothing.
	It shrinks back on itself and is gone.
	So they go down, they climb down the 200 foot ridge and they get down to exactly where they had triangulated
	where this had happened they noticed a strong sulfur-like odor in the area
	they could see absolutely nothing else, there was no traces they had a magnetic field detector right there with them
	which they used and there was no evidence of magnetic field they searched the area, there was no tracks, there was
	nothing here we're dealing with accomplished investigators
	people who were there to look into exactly the kind of thing.
	That's correct.
	Both people had experience in looking into these kinds of phenomena.
	But the fact is, there was no track, there was nothing that we could really investigate that came out from that.
	And we're still actually trying to look for leads of We were lucky enough to be able to use Generation 3 night vision binoculars in order to see that, but other people in the same area have reported many, many times evidence of these very, very pale lights that appear and then disappear, but nobody has been able to see anything
	climbing out of a tunnel that's located just above the ground.
	That's the first time I've ever heard that story.
	With respect to the long exposure 35mm photographs, what showed up there?
	Absolutely nothing.
	That's the interesting thing because the night vision binoculars go well into the infrared.
	They can see well into the infrared.
	So we had infrared film that was being exposed, but nothing showed up whatsoever on that.
	It may have been that the exposures weren't long enough.
	We're talking 20 to 30 second exposures.
	It was a relatively moonlit night.
	Yeah, I can understand how it might not show up.
	Anybody who's ever tried to go out and take pictures of stars, even with some of the most sensitive night vision, for example, the Sony Nightshot, even that, you can barely, barely get the brightest stars.
	So I guess I can understand.
	And I also have third A generation night vision, so I understand what that does.
	So you know how good they are?
	Oh, I do.
	I certainly do.
	It turns night into day, literally.
	Yeah.
	If there's any light source whatsoever, it is so easily seen and magnified so many times.
	The third generation is amazing stuff.
	Yeah, that's right.
	We can spot coyotes way, way down in the distance.
	Oh, yes.
	They're really excellent pieces of equipment.
	All right, Doctor.
	Hold on.
	This is pretty wild stuff, but what you've got to understand is you're listening to things that have never been heard before.
	A research sponsored by Bob Bigelow, who is quite silent on what he does, quite private about what he does, and you're hearing about it for the first time tonight, right here.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Alright, we just heard the most remarkable story.
	You've got to remember this is sponsored research by a well-qualified researchers that you're hearing in specific hotspots, unnamed hotspots, here in the southwest that has been going on for For years now, research that has never been talked about until now, publicly, we're still not telling you and will not tell you precisely where it was that these things you're hearing about occurred.
	But I can tell you that that information is known, extremely well documented, and is being withheld for obvious reasons, so that the ongoing research can continue without interruption from the curious public and the press and so forth and so on.
	So, uh, is being couched a little bit with regard to where it occurred, but you can be damn sure that, uh, the details you're hearing are accurate now.
	Doctor, I realize this is obviously speculation, but boy, to me, what you just described sounds like a dimensional portal of some sort opening in our time-space with some sort of creature, uh, coming through and then Going who knows where, but I mean, if I had to describe what you just talked about, that's what it sounds like, doesn't it?
	Well, that's one of the first things that we'd like to try to repeat.
	One of the, I suppose, frustrating things about this kind of research is it's not amenable to replication as a standard part of the scientific method because We don't have any control of when it's going to happen or where it's going to happen.
	Well, because you are not the causative agent.
	You are the observer only.
	That's right.
	And we can't really, we can't control the variables.
	But that makes it challenging for the scientific method.
	But it's also, it's also enhances creativity in terms of what are the best ways that we can use to approach this.
	And one of the things that we would like to do, if possible, is to invite people to contact us if they feel they've had similar experiences, because we know a lot of the time these pale yellow lights have appeared in the southwest of the United States.
	Now, whether or not each one is associated with the kind of phenomenon that we just described, I don't know.
	It's definitely worth paying close attention to.
	One could also imagine time travel.
	I mean, there are many things that you could imagine.
	Many different explanations, and really what we need is the physics of what is happening, because what we just described was really defying the laws of conventional physics as defined by college-level textbooks.
	There's a lot of very interesting high-level physics Theoretical research that's going on right now that may have some way of explaining some of this stuff, but it certainly hasn't filtered into the textbooks yet.
	Doctor, when Bob Bigelow came to see me and I signed the non-disclosure agreement, he told me a story about two cameras that were recording 24 hours a day mounted high on observation poles Which were more or less looking at each other.
	In other words, you had two cameras at a distance looking at each other, each with a video recorder running, looking for some event or another.
	Are you able to tell any of that story?
	I could give a brief description of actually what happened.
	Just picture Picture a long line of telephone poles that are running along a property.
	On two adjacent telephone poles that are separated by about 200 feet, there are three cameras on each of those two poles, making a total of six television cameras.
	Oh, okay.
	So, one of the television cameras is pointing towards the other pole, and the other two are pointing in other directions.
	We found that one of the telephone poles lost power very, very suddenly at about 8.30 one night, just as it was beginning to get dark, but definitely nowhere near dark.
	And it lost power without any obvious reason.
	Upon investigation, it became obvious that the The wiring to the camera had been fairly violently ripped out, and the wiring had been attached to the telephone pole ascending by pretty well half a roll of duct tape.
	You know, the sticky duct tape?
	Of course.
	Upon investigation, not a shred of that duct tape was found, which means that a lot of trouble had been gone to remove that duct tape, And then following that to rip the cords from the camera, but the fact that we had, there was another camera on the adjacent pole that was pointing directly at this incident.
	So in other words, you had videotape?
	That's right.
	We were very confident that we had whatever it was that caused this shutdown of power.
	By ripping out the cords.
	We had it on videotape.
	And so obviously the first thing you do is go back to that videotape and... Yeah, so what we did was we got the... Played back the tapes.
	First time around there was absolutely nothing obvious.
	In spite of the fact that the camera was pointing directly at the pole.
	And we're talking a camera with infrared capabilities, so...
	It's not like it was too dark to see anything.
	We could see easily what was going on.
	And with the time stamp on both cameras, we could show that the camera that was looking at the camera that was disabled was at exactly the same time.
	We got the tape digitally enhanced and we could still find nothing.
	So what we have is... That's impossible!
	It would have been a very difficult feat to perform because we have it on film that something interrupted that camera by ripping out the wires.
	It would have been very, very easy to spot.
	Somebody climbing up the telephone pole, which is what would have needed to happen.
	And removing all that duct tape.
	And removing all the duct tape and then ripping the wires out would have been very easy to spot.
	We could see cattle in the foreground and background that were very, very easy to pick out.
	We could have picked out a human easily with that video camera.
	Nothing came up on the tape.
	You videotaped an impossibility, at least from our point of view.
	In other words, there's no way that camera that remained operating with the timestamp, as you looked at that exact moment, could not have picked up what happened, and yet it didn't.
	That's correct.
	That's impossible.
	That's correct.
	We went to a lot of trouble to investigate because another of the The wires on the, um, on the first telephone pole, it was actually a dead wire, had been cut, um, in two different places, removing approximately a three-foot section of the, uh, of the cable.
	Wow!
	Um, we, we sent, uh, we sent the ends of those wires to, uh, to very high-quality forensic labs, and we, we went through the whole rounds of testing, and it showed that the, it had been cut with a, uh, rather than a A wire cutter was a single blade that had been used to cut.
	But again, we don't know why, who, or... We don't have any more information on that incident.
	It's one of these... These files have not been closed yet, but we haven't been able to make any more progress on that because once we established through digital enhancement of the videotape that nothing was there in the visible range, To rip those wires out, we couldn't go any further.
	Even if something had been there in an invisible range, something the camera could not have captured, still, one would think that with the tape coming off, the wires being cut, with a good digital enhancement looking right back that way and the exact time, You would have observed the material items being shredded or ripped apart or cut.
	Yeah, we should have been able to see something.
	And the interesting thing is the cameras on the pole, which lost power, were all pointing in different directions.
	So we had the approaches to the telephone pole pretty well covered.
	So obviously we went back to those videotapes and we carefully looked to see if there was any movement of the animals for example in the vicinity that
	would say that they were getting nervous or something and we found nothing.
	There was there was nothing to indicate that anything was approaching the
	particular telephone pole just seconds and minutes before the pole lost power.
	This must be incredibly not just fascinating but frustrating work. I
	mean to have such high-tech coverage in an area where you know things
	are going on a hot spot and have all of this coverage and then to have that happen
	and not be able to nail down what happened.
	Well, definitely it raises more questions than answers because we really thought we had that nailed because we had the other camera.
	We had the foresight to put a camera on the other telephone pole.
	We thought we had it nailed, and what emerged was something that was very difficult to explain.
	I mean, we went through all of the different scenarios of people sneaking in the previous night, unwinding the duct tape, that kind of thing, and none of the scenarios really were feasible.
	None of the scenarios that we came up with in terms of human intervention Again, this is an undisclosed hot spot where mutilations and other things have been occurring and that's the reason that you were where you were.
	all of the angles were covered.
	Again, this is an undisclosed hotspot where mutilations and other things had been occurring
	and that's the reason that you were where you were.
	But the implication here is that whatever it is that's going on
	is going to go on despite our best support scientific efforts, which again implies a technology
	so far beyond anything that we can imagine right now.
	The...
	Does it not?
	It may imply that or it may also imply some form of interaction or communication and we're trying to establish whether or not that's the case.
	There are multiple incidents that are similar.
	Each one is different, but they may be interpreted as some form of communication, or else we're totally off the beaten track.
	It's not the standard craft in the sky that has come up in this particular hotspot, but We've come across others that are equally compelling, that involve what people would call craft.
	Maybe I could give you an example.
	Oh, I would love for you to give me an example, but after the bottom of the hour, hold on, Doctor.
	I want to get your information out.
	Again, if you have a pencil and a paper, folks, please write down what I'm going to tell you right now.
	You're listening to somebody who is doing Probably the most significant research in this area, in the world right now.
	So if you have anything that has struck a chord from what you've heard, something that is going on with you, something you know about, something current, or even something relatively current, that bears on what you're hearing tonight, Let me give you the contact information for the National Institute for Discovery Science.
	The phone number is 1-888-433-6500.
	Again, 1-888-433-6500.
	1-888-433-6500 Again, 1-888-433-6500
	Or you can email at NIDS, that's N-I-D as in dog, S as in sugar, N-I-D-S
	At A-N-V, that's alpha nora victor, NIDS at A-N-V dot net And I would strongly urge you to contact this organization, which is doing very significant, well-funded research into the kind of thing that you're hearing about tonight.
	that has simply no explanation.
	These are things that have never before been reported anywhere,
	radio, TV, or anywhere else.
	Well-funded research.
	There is more to hear.
	Stay right where you are.
	From the high desert, I'm going to relate some incidences of craft.
	Yes, I wanted to see if we could get some feedback on this particular incident because,
	particularly if people have experienced something like this before.
	As I said before, we're very interested in investigating new novel cases and we do guarantee to keep everything absolutely confidential.
	If people do contact us, we will not name names or locations.
	This happened to an executive level individual.
	He works as an executive in an organization.
	He has held high political office, and he's also a rancher.
	It happened on his property, which is in the southwest of the United States, at about 1.30 a.m.
	when he awoke, when his horses were acting up.
	He went out to the corral near his house, And he assumed that it was a coyote or some predator on the loose.
	He walked over to the paddock, to the corral, and he noticed all the horses.
	There was four horses in the corral, all looking in exactly the same direction.
	He climbed up on top of the, just bar by bar, there were a series of horizontal bars, climbed up to the top to see exactly what the horses were looking at, and he couldn't see anything.
	He could just see the horses.
	Immobile standing looking in this direction.
	He started climbing down the corral and midway down through the bars of the corral he saw an object which he described as a 20 foot diameter silver grayish craft that was hovering absolutely silently.
	He could see it between the bars of the corral.
	It was over on the other side of the corral and he He noticed that's exactly what the horses had their eyes on.
	So he climbed back up to the top to get a better look at the object, but he couldn't see it.
	He climbed back down again and to the same level where he had been previously and he could see it again.
	Every time that he moved up or down away from these two particular horizontal bars of the corral, he lost sight of the object.
	In other words, the object was not visible.
	It was only visible at a precise angle between the two bars of the corral.
	Now he did this for quite some time and eventually he went back to actually get a firearm just in case there was something going to happen to the horses.
	When he returned the craft was gone.
	Now remember this craft was making absolutely no noise.
	It was precisely what the horses were looking at because As he looked through the bars of this corral, he could see that he was in line with the horse's sight.
	So he knew that this was not a figment of his imagination, at least.
	If it was, the horses were having the same experience.
	What really intrigued us about this case was, number one, we were fairly sure, in fact very sure, Because we calibrated this eyewitness fairly well.
	We went back on numerous occasions and cross-examined him on the testimony and we were fairly sure that this was a high caliber witness.
	We do have a methodology that we go through to make sure that the witnesses are considered high caliber.
	It intrigued us because the implication was That there are specific angles at which something like this could be seen.
	Now this was a 20 foot diameter silverish grayish craft hovering absolutely silently
	a few feet off the ground on the other side of the corral that he was looking at.
	Now you spoke about dimensions earlier.
	Yes.
	This is one of these things that we would be very interested in following up, because it implies that there's something slightly more complex than a simple dimensional doorway, so to speak.
	We've heard a lot of talk, especially on the internet, about dimensional doorways, but something happened in this particular case that appeared to be different.
	But the fact that the human and the animals could see it at the same time, to us, made it more compelling.
	Yeah.
	Animals see things in a very different way.
	Some of them don't see colors.
	Some of them... I believe there have been some experiments... Actually, maybe you can tell me how, for example, how, if we were a horse, we would see things.
	Well, I can tell you, for example, that cattle, their distribution of rods and cones in the eye have a slightly different spectrum than what we see.
	In other words, they are shifted, from what I can remember, towards the red end of the spectrum.
	I need to look that up again, but we actually designed some Some eyepieces based on that fact which emphasize particular regions of the spectrum so that we could in effect mimic what cattle were seeing because it was becoming obvious to us that cattle and other animals were picking up visually what we couldn't pick up, what humans couldn't pick up, because we've had a number of experiences like that.
	Oh, that's fascinating.
	In other words, so You could put something on and virtually simulate or see things as, say, a cow would.
	That's a rough approximation of what we were trying to do.
	Yeah, we were trying to enhance the part of the spectrum that the rods and cone ratio that the cow's eyes had and limit the part of the spectrum that we normally see.
	Um, since my favorite are cats, I have cats.
	And they always appear to be chasing things that, uh, seemingly human beings are not there.
	Right.
	And it may be their little minds that are just doing this, uh, who knows?
	Or, I have always thought, they may see things that we don't.
	Um, and this may be way outside your field, but, uh, what about a cat?
	Would a cat see things radically different than a human being?
	Well, we know their night vision is way better than ours.
	I'm not sure about their day vision.
	It's the kind of thing that would be easy to lock up though.
	Because I'm sure that research has been done.
	If it's been done for cows, it's certainly been done for cats.
	There are a number of people now investigating sightings of triangular craft.
	And I had a very, very, very close encounter With a very large triangular craft.
	My wife and I both did.
	Very near where I live here in Verump, Nevada.
	And I wonder if your organization has tracked or is aware of these triangular craft sightings and if you have anything to offer.
	We've definitely heard of the vast amount of reports that have been coming out throughout the country.
	We follow Peter Gersten's We've had some eyewitnesses tell us about some very large craft.
	I'm not sure if they're triangular.
	We had a case actually in the same region where eleven different eyewitnesses in four separate cars traveling At about 11.30 at night, they were driving in a convoy through a remote canyon.
	Now, three of these people hold high-level executive positions in an organization, and a couple of them are actually involved in local political office, too, so we view them as pretty credible.
	We interviewed several of the different occupants in different cars, but basically, to cut a long story short, what they saw was Something very, very huge in the distance as they entered this canyon that looked like a gigantic well-lit oil platform or natural gas platform.
	As they drove into the canyon, they discovered that something huge was directly over them.
	Something had moved from quite a distance away to be moving directly over them.
	Two of the cars pulled over to the side of the road and got out.
	The description was of a craft that covered the entire canyon.
	The canyon wall-to-wall, which we measured pretty accurately, we videotaped it, we've been to the spot several times, is about a mile long.
	So the craft was at least a mile long.
	They describe it as being oval in shape, but The interesting thing was when they got out of the car, there was absolute silence.
	There was no sound as it moved over.
	It was approximately 200 feet above them.
	So you could picture this mile-long craft moving silently about 200 feet above these eyewitnesses.
	They could pick out obviously because it was a moonlit night they could pick out details
	of the underneath of the craft.
	It was a series of interwoven metal metallic looking plates and some lights that were rotating.
	But the remarkable thing was that they didn't feel any displacement of air as this thing
	moved through the air.
	And it was not too much above the canyon walls, the walls of the canyon.
	It eventually disappeared over the wall of the canyon on their lost side of it until
	they saw it several miles down.
	It had moved almost instantly several miles down.
	They saw the lights on the side of it.
	It never made a sound.
	Now, Doctor, you know, as a scientist, as a very objective person, which you obviously are, thrust into all of this investigation that's been going on really without the public's knowledge for a long time, And knowing what you know, and having witnessed what you have witnessed, and or heard from reliable witnesses, what has this done to you in terms of your normal, scientific, skeptical mind?
	Well, firstly, it definitely, the longer we stay in this area of research, the more the challenge to Expand the scientific method becomes because as I said previously the two biggest challenges are number one repeatability and number two trying to control the variables and we have no fix on that.
	In terms of objectivity it's it's there is a definite relationship in the certainly in the minds of the eyewitnesses between what they perceive and almost like an alteration in their perception
	as these things inflict themselves on their space their observation capacities are changed somehow
	and we're sure that they see something but in terms of me objectively examining them
	it's an open doorway so you still remain with a healthy bit of skepticism
	Oh, definitely, yeah.
	I believe that we need to be skeptical.
	But not to the point of debunking what people say.
	No, no, no, no, no.
	We need to be... No, that's just simply not useful.
	No, it's not useful at all.
	And so I try to do the same thing.
	I try to remain in the middle and listen and some of what you have said has been absolutely incredible.
	Listen, I would like to take some phone calls if you're able to stay for the final hour of the show.
	Are you?
	Sure.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	All right.
	Then we will take phone calls after the top of the hour.
	I've got your contact information and I want to get that on here in a moment one more time.
	But is there anything else?
	You've been so grand coming on tonight and telling us so many things that we've never heard before.
	Are there any publications that you have that you would like to promote?
	If so, now's a good time.
	Yeah, well, one of the things that we do at NIZ is that we do publish.
	And we've had a book that has just come out, which is called Best UFO Cases in Europe.
	And it's by a German physicist.
	Oh?
	It's actually a collection of the best evidence for UFOs in Europe over the last 50 years.
	Well that's something new!
	How would people get that?
	Well, it can be bought directly from our website and what we've arranged to do actually for your show is rather Than the $23 usually that we charge on the website for this book.
	That includes shipping.
	We're bringing the whole thing down to $15 U.S.
	$15?
	Certainly.
	They've sure heard a lot, so let's see what they've got to say.
	On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Keller and Art Bell.
	Where are you calling from, please?
	My name is Henry.
	I'm calling from the island of Kauai out here in the Pacific, and you're coming through clear as a bell out here.
	Pun intended, I guess.
	Yeah.
	Welcome to the program.
	Yeah, that would be Kong Radio, and they carry the whole show.
	And I'd just like to say that our thoughts are with Keith tonight.
	We've really been thinking about him, and we hope he'll pull through.
	Thank you.
	I have a question and a quick comment.
	Keller, is it?
	Dr. Keller?
	You seem to be implying that alien contact, direct alien contact or even from a distance, could involve more than just people's feelings.
	My impression is that proximity might be involved, much like Jacques Vallée has delved into in some of his books.
	Could you comment on that?
	And then I'd like to have a comment.
	Proximity, you mean?
	According to some of the literature, in particular, the person who was portrayed in Close Encounters as the French fellow... Yeah, that was Jacques Vallée.
	Yeah, that was Jacques Vallée in real life.
	He has done some research that seems to imply that people who are in close proximity to some of these events have different perceptions of what actually happened and that it might even have some electromagnetic I was curious, I know that most of your expertise is in the area of biology, isn't it?
	Yes.
	And I was curious if you had done any research into the realm of electromagnetic spectrums and other such phenomena that might be involved even from a distance with supposed extraterrestrial situations.
	Well, Dr. Vallee is on our Science Advisory Board, so we've been exposed to a lot of what he's been saying, and we would certainly say that a lot of the data that we've come across is suggesting that individuals who are in very close proximity to these events do have alterations in their In some cases, they do have alterations in their perception.
	Dr. Vallee's interpretation of that is that the intelligence or the control system is capable of manipulating both physical reality and psychic phenomena simultaneously.
	As a biologist, one of the things that I'm really interested in is that measuring the biological consequences of these close
	encounters as well as these alleged abduction experiences because many of the features
	have overlapping reports and I would see the human being as the perfect readout system
	especially at the level of the immune system. So ultimately down the road I think
	after we have done the documentation of the individual phenomena I would be very interested in
	looking at the biological impact on human beings because my prediction is that it is
	substantial.
	I see.
	So would you say that resonance may be involved?
	My feeling is that it's a combination of a very, very strong impact, probably electromagnetically,
	but it may also feature some form of manipulation, but it's really way too early to say.
	But the impact on the individual is both at the level of perception, and I believe also at the level of the whole body, particularly the immune system.
	The immune system is capable of potentially storing some of this information as is the brain and obviously the brain is what we've been used to in terms of the reports that have come out but one of the things that would interest me is looking at the immune system to see what the effects are in terms of stored memory.
	Uh-huh.
	Well, thank you very much.
	I have a quick comment, if it's all right.
	Go ahead, sir.
	In the air with Dr. Keller.
	How are you?
	Oh, I'm doing pretty good.
	How are you, Art?
	Fine.
	Where are you, sir?
	I am in Hudson, Wisconsin.
	Okay.
	My name is Adam.
	I'm listening off 1,500 KSTP.
	Yes, sir.
	And first off, I'd like to say, you know, I read The Quickening.
	Great book.
	Thank you.
	Gary is heck, bud.
	Now, I've got the contact numbers here for the doctor, but I would like to say that Myself and many others in the area here, in the Northwoods, have seen these black beings, these creatures.
	In one case, I have a friend who has seen one of the portals.
	And I was wondering if the doctor knows of any research going on in the area?
	If anyone else has possibly even reported these sightings?
	Because I mean, I've got a couple of handfuls of people here who have I'd be really interested in finding out what the heck's going on.
	Boy, it sure is a new one on me, Doctor.
	Here you go.
	There's somebody who's a witness.
	Well, we don't have anybody out where you are, but what we'd like to do is connect with you.
	If you can get us your contact info, we'd certainly like to follow this up.
	I'm curious, when you heard the story the doctor told a little while ago, Remarkable story.
	Frankly, I've never heard one like it before.
	That resonated?
	In other words, it's in many ways or most ways similar to what you've heard?
	Almost exactly similar.
	Especially in what I've seen, just the fact that it was completely silent.
	One of my friends said it walked in almost kind of a feline manner.
	In her case, it was hopping from tree to tree.
	In my case, it was following people Around on the grounds where I work, we have two witnesses here.
	And on another case, I do have a friend who had seen a portal near where they had sighted one before.
	Wow!
	What did this portal look like?
	It was pretty similar to what you described, but since they were on ground level, they said it was more like a yellow line.
	Okay.
	So, I don't know.
	We try not to talk about it too much because, I mean, it's...
	It's a scary thing to see firsthand.
	Are you on email?
	No, I don't own a computer.
	Could you call us tomorrow?
	Sure.
	At area code 702-798-1700?
	Yeah, I have the number.
	Yeah, just call us and ask for Dr. Colm Kelleher because I'd certainly like to follow up on this.
	Okay, what was that name again?
	Dr. Colm, what you described It was the first time I had ever heard anything like that in my life described.
	And I've heard a lot of things described, believe me.
	And then to run into somebody who has... We haven't heard too many descriptions of it.
	That's why I was interested.
	Because we obviously are in the business of comparing notes.
	Sounds like you're going to be comparing some notes.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Keller.
	Hi.
	Hello, my name is Dan.
	I'm from Grass Valley, California.
	Hi, Dan.
	Yes, besides being a blind UFO abductee, I am what scientists call a synesthete.
	That is a person who, for instance, when they hear sounds, they see pictures in their head.
	For example, when scientists have found that blind people, when they read Braille, that they access their visual cortex.
	I'm wondering, Dr. Kelleher, if you have explored the characteristics of blind synesthetes and other rare people to show their compatibility or abduction.
	No, we haven't actually.
	The only, the nearest approximation I could come up with is Dr. Kenneth Ring's recent report on congenitally blind people's near-death experiences, where full visual impressions are obvious.
	Yes.
	Also, sir, have you heard of instances where, for example, hospital or emergency room personnel have found Unusual or unidentifiable matter in the blood and where those samples have been destroyed without the permission of the patient.
	Really?
	Yes, that happened to me sir.
	This was many years ago.
	I was hoping to get a blood sample to people such as you, but unfortunately It was destroyed.
	All right.
	He said yes.
	So listen for a second, doctor.
	Oh, I'm sorry, sir.
	I didn't hear that.
	Yeah, there was a yes in there, doctor.
	I haven't heard of those cases before, except, as I said, the near-death experience cases.
	But in terms of blood samples being destroyed, no, I haven't heard about it.
	Oh, OK.
	Oh, I think also, sir, in regards to these tunnels of light, I was shown configurations through heat and through sound and through very powerful light such as beams and configurations of energy which were placed around me so that I could sensually acclimate myself to what these tunnels of light and their changes would be.
	Yes, so I just wanted to share that with you.
	I did put a message on your machine, sir, so one more thing I would like to mention.
	When these visitations transpire, when they come into houses where people do not use the
	optical, then you do not have that automatic optical fear factor, which means that these
	entities or presences or dimensional whatever they are can come into a place and let a person
	and then they can go through a process of self-recovery.
	Yes, sir.
	If you're sightless, and this has occurred to you, and you've been near one of these portholes, without the visual aspect of it, then what is the... how would you describe what you felt, or what senses?
	Okay, well, see, I can...
	I've used, since I was very, very young, three-dimensional imagery.
	I could sit down at the typewriter art, for example, and if I wanted you to build something, I could write it out.
	So I have, in my own sense, I have a very holographic-oriented mind.
	I'm a sculptor and musician, so I'm used to working with shapes and contours.
	and energy in motion.
	Okay, then what did you sense?
	Well, for example, they would show me these beams of heat that would move in these patterns all over my body.
	They would place around me these tunnels or contours of energy so that I could sense myself being within them.
	And there were a whole variety of things that were done to me.
	Wow.
	All right.
	I very much appreciate your call.
	Thank you.
	That's very interesting.
	So there you have somebody without the sight aspect and nevertheless sensory impressions.
	Yes, it would have been interesting if you'd given the sensory impressions of being near the tunnel of light.
	All right.
	Well, I just had that one more quick question.
	Dr. Carman, if I could after that. Sure.
	Doctor, if you were hard pressed, do you have any sort of hypothesis or even just an opinion
	as to what these beings are? I'd be really hard pressed to come up with
	an explanation except that if we can get maybe a few more cases that we can get into that
	are meaty, maybe we can come up with some explanations. But I think right now talking
	about dimensional doorways or tunnels into another dimension may be just our way of cataloging
	something we don't understand.
	Sure.
	I wish you the best of luck.
	I would certainly love to know.
	Let me just get some idea.
	We all would.
	I also wanted to say, Art, I spend a lot of time on your website.
	I absolutely love it.
	My thoughts and prayers go out to Keith Roman.
	I hope everything is okay with him.
	If you want to check out another real good one, LV2000.com.
	It's a wonderful website to hit.
	All right, sir.
	Thank you very much, and take care.
	Thank you.
	Wild Card Line, you are on the air with Dr. Kelleher and Art Bell.
	Good morning.
	Where are you, please?
	Hi, Art.
	This is Larry in Fort Lauderdale, listening to you on WINZ Super Talk Radio, South Florida's home of Art Bell.
	Yes, sir.
	And a question for Dr. Kelleher was this.
	Regarding the two telephone poles, each with the three cameras looking in different directions, including at each other, were you ever able to see On the pole that wasn't affected, the change, in other words, the missing tape where you saw it before and then didn't see it afterwards, were you able to get that close?
	The resolution wasn't good enough.
	For example, if the tape was being unwound, and it would really depend on how it was unwound, but the resolution was just not good enough to pick out a slight, slight movement.
	For example, there was a tiny, tiny light underneath of the cameras that was picked up in the infrared so we could actually watch the light go out on the camera.
	I mean, the resolution was that good.
	Oh my!
	So one camera saw the light go out on the other camera?
	That's right.
	We weren't confident enough to say that the unrolling of the duct tape around the telephone pole was accomplished.
	We weren't confident enough to say that that happened and we could see it.
	So that would certify definitely that your time wasn't out of sync or anything on your time stamp?
	That's right.
	What about rodents, you know, just getting up there and chewing away at it and, you know, taking on it?
	Well, these had been physically ripped out of the casing and actually it would have taken a person who was very athletic and very strong to have actually done that because we're talking about three different cameras and the power cord which went into one and then led into the junction boxes of the other two all three were just ripped out and what I didn't mention at the bottom of the telephone pole was a half length of PVC piping which was anchoring the wiring as it went into the ground had also been
	Ripped off the telephone pole and the nail brackets that held that were also missing.
	We know that cows don't eat those things.
	They don't eat half a roll of duct tape even if they could possibly remove it that way.
	I mean, we covered all those angles and we still came up with questions.
	One last thing.
	I don't know if you can answer this or not, but with the purpose of the cameras, one large scientific butterfly net, or were you looking for something specific like rods or UFOs?
	We were looking for something specific like flying objects.
	Okay.
	Thank you.
	All right.
	Thank you very much for the call, sir.
	Good questions.
	Ease of the Rockies.
	You're on the air with Dr. Kelleher.
	Hi.
	Hi, Art.
	I wanted to ask Dr. Kelleher about If he thinks that these tall black figures are maybe spiritual bodies.
	Actually, that's a very good question.
	Where are you by the way?
	WLS Chicago.
	Chicago, alright.
	Doctor, very good question.
	The spiritual side certainly can no more be rejected than anything else.
	And it's entirely possible that we are seeing something that is in the spiritual realm.
	What's your take on that?
	We certainly can't rule that out.
	It's as good a possibility as anything else.
	I mean, people talk about moving different dimensions, but as I said, it's just a concept.
	If you talk to the Native Americans, they will definitely say that these are spiritual entities.
	So, we haven't ruled that out.
	It's a method, as I said, of classifying something that we don't fully understand, and it may actually have after-death or even spiritual ramifications.
	Do you have much hope, Doctor, that in our lifetimes, our lifetimes, we'll get some definitive answers to these things, or do you think it's going to be beyond us and something for future generations?
	I'm optimistic that if we can encourage a much greater degree of interest from the scientific community that things will start to happen because if you've got a bunch of assistant professors or postdoctoral fellows who are in university or academic settings who are studying this kind of thing on a full-time basis That's the way to get answers and then you start collaborating between different university departments.
	You can get momentum going but as long as this subject remains outside the purview of mainstream science, which it has traditionally for the last 50 years, the answers are going to start piling up and the questions are not going to be answered.
	When you begin talking about mainstream science in universities and scientists, and then with respect to the last caller's question about the spiritual possibilities, unfortunately those by hardcore scientists tend to get rejected almost out of hand.
	And I wonder how you cover that aspect of the investigation.
	Well, we try not to eliminate any of the potential hypotheses because the bottom line is we don't know enough to eliminate any of the hypotheses.
	We've got to have all of them.
	Well, that's a good objective view, one that science doesn't always have.
	Yes, that's true, but I think as time goes on and As more and more of these cases are investigated, we feel that perhaps NIDS may be in a position to start making bridges towards mainstream science.
	And that's one of our objectives is to network with people in anthropology and psychology, sociology at universities.
	And we've been doing a lot of that actually in the last 12 months.
	Well, a lot of people have no idea I guess in mainstream ufology they do what Bob Bigelow has done over the years but a lot of people I think have no idea what Bob Bigelow has done and he has probably contributed more toward serious investigation of all of this phenomena than anybody in the world as far as I know and you know he's really an important
	I've been trying to talk Bob into coming on the air for a long time and he's almost ready so the next time you see him for me, which I assume will be later today after you've had a good nap, tell him I still want him to come on the air.
	I would certainly second what you've just said.
	I think throughout the United States and even the world there's not too many people who are willing to to support these kind of subjects at the level of
	commitment, long term commitment that he has.
	That's exactly right.
	Wes for the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Keller.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Okay, my name is Aaron.
	I'm listening to you on 790K ABC.
	Yes sir.
	Hi Aaron.
	Hi.
	I have read in the future that it may be possible to artificially inseminate a cow and have
	it carry a human fetus to term.
	We also have a lot of UFO abduction cases where people describe human-alien hybrids
	and the aliens are often described as being smaller.
	There is research indicating that may be possible soon.
	Doctor?
	That's an interesting possibility, but we haven't seen any evidence so far of that.
	Let's have a few other things here.
	Well, that's an awfully good question, actually.
	There is research indicating that may be possible soon.
	Doctor?
	That's an interesting possibility, but we haven't seen any evidence so far of that.
	The case that I described earlier was the cow was definitely pregnant and the fetus
	I mean, we triangulated with two different blood tests.
	But I'm not sure how the rejection of the cross-species rejection would work.
	Obviously, it is being worked on.
	I'm not sure how it would work.
	Well, I have two other things you might want to check.
	I mean, in these hot spots, if you see a lot of this happening, maybe you might want to use a sonogram to check the pregnant cows and see.
	Or also the cord blood that's left in the umbilical cord, since it never mixes with the mother.
	You could check maybe the DNA, since a cow is only 90% compatible with a human, a chimp's like 98.4.
	So if you have something like that, it might be something unusual.
	Yeah, that's a good idea, actually.
	The cord blood cells...
	Might be worth checking.
	And Art, one last thing here.
	Tomorrow when you have Terence McKenna, maybe you could go back and dig up some information on that potassium sulfate that Bob Guccione talked about that his wife used to shrink her tumors.
	You know, maybe that might help.
	All right.
	I appreciate the suggestion.
	He is, of course, receiving, as you might imagine, every cure under the sun.
	This is a particularly aggressive malignant tumor.
	And so we'll talk to him about that tomorrow.
	I'm sure he's thinking about all of that.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Dr. Kelleher.
	Hi.
	Yeah.
	Good morning, Art.
	Good morning, sir.
	My name's Richard out of Burleson, Texas.
	I listen to you on 570 Cliff.
	Yes, sir.
	Okay.
	My question would be that the area that he has been researching in, he has said the Southwest.
	Correct.
	I'm relating this to something I saw back in August of 93.
	Uh, down along Interstate 8.
	I used to drive big trucks.
	Uh, something I saw approximately between 24 to 40 miles east of Yuma, Arizona.
	Yes.
	And it started in that area.
	Uh, basically something I observed north of the interstate.
	Approximately 6 to 7 miles north of the interstate.

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