Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Michael Cremo - Citizens Against UFO Secrecy - Peter Gersten - Lawsuit
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Welcome to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
The night featuring Coast to Coast AM from May 12th, 1999.
From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening on an incredibly windy night here in the desert.
Or good morning, wherever you may be.
Oh, I'm telling you, the winds are sweeping across the desert.
My ISDN line, my other lines for video and everything are out, so this night you will not see me on video.
Nor, probably, will you hear me on the net, either.
Although, nope.
Yes, you will.
You will hear me on the net, because that originates from a satellite receiver in Dallas.
But the connection between here and Las Vegas is kapooey.
So, we'll see how it goes as the evening wears on.
From the Hawaiian Islands, the Tahitian chain, In the west all the way eastward to the Caribbean and the U.S.
Virgin Islands.
South into South America.
North all the way to the pole.
This, of course, is Coast to Coast AM.
And we've got a packed show for you tonight.
Unless we get quite literally blown away.
A little bit of news, then.
Peter Gersten is here, founder and king of cause.
If you feel like that, king.
King of cause.
I'm just messing with him here.
He's really not a king.
He just is the director, I suppose.
Actually, you know what?
I'll have to find out his real title here in a minute.
And then, in the second hour, it's Michael Cremo.
Is it Michael Cremo?
Michael Cremo.
I should know by now, shouldn't I?
And forbidden archaeology.
In other words, what was around before we were?
It'll be really, really interesting.
All of that coming up.
Stay right where you are.
Streamlink, the audio subscription service of Coast to Coast AM has a new name.
Coast Insider.
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You'll also get our amazing download library of three full years of shows, Just think, as a new subscriber, over 1,000 shows will be available for you to collect, enjoy, and listen to at your leisure.
Plus, you'll get streamed and on-demand broadcasts of Art Bell's Somewhere in Time shows and two weekly classics.
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Looking for the truth?
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In Indonesia, rice farmers got quite a surprise when they discovered that overnight, a large crop circle had mysteriously formed in one of their fields.
There has to be a reason, though, for the geometric patterns here.
But I don't think the point is to decipher them.
I think the point is to realize that there's other intelligence in the universe.
They're visiting us.
We're not visiting them.
So until they tell us who they are, it's a mystery.
Now we take you back to the night of May 12th, 1999, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Well, anyway, everything's down.
All my lines, my computer lines and everything, the line to Dallas for the video, all of it down.
I imagine you will get, however, the real audio now that I think about it a little bit, because they actually translate that in Dallas, and I'm sure their lines are fine.
Out here, the windstorm.
Man, you wouldn't believe it.
We are having a windstorm.
A strong earthquake just shook large parts of northern Japan.
it was a magnitude six point one and struck uh...
uh... just about five hundred fifty miles north uh... west of tokyo
the water birth activity going on right now Otherwise in the world, gun restrictions rejected.
The Republican-controlled Senate this time said, uh-uh.
We're not going to do it.
You want voluntary ones, fine, but we're not making another law.
Good for you, Senate.
Congressional negotiators today agreed to provide $11.6 billion for the Increasing Air Assault on Yugoslavia.
That was a compromise figure.
They tried to give even more than that.
That didn't work, so they compromised.
And it'll be $11.6 billion.
So when you paid your taxes here, folks, you probably bought a little piece of a cruise missile or something like that.
Your part's probably already blown up.
Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin resigning.
The market went down a couple hundred points and then said, And came back up to minus 25.
And one of Kevorkian's associates may be in trouble.
He is being investigated right now, Associate Dr. Kevorkian.
And so there you have it.
That's the world tonight.
There is one other item.
NATO, according to Tony Blair in Britain, is going to consider shortly whether or not it's going to throw ground troops into the war in Yugoslavia.
Although he insisted the 50-day-old now air campaign against the Serb forces would be successful, he said that NATO was planning for all contingencies.
So brace yourself, folks.
We may be marching off to Kosovo here shortly.
I'm sorry to say.
All right, now, I've held him up long enough.
King Gerstmann, Peter Gersten, founder of Cause.
He'll tell you what it is.
Peter, welcome to the program.
Good evening, Arthur.
You are a trip.
King Gersten.
I don't know, when you found an organization like this, and then you run it, it's kind of like you're the king, isn't it?
Well, then you would need a kingdom, of course.
And I'd rather be the king of heart.
A kingdom of cause.
Right.
And Monday through Saturday, I am the director of Cause.
And on Sunday, I am Sir Peter of Sedona.
In other words, you have a certain glow about you on Sunday, and we get the Sunday non-UFO reports.
Exactly.
So on Sunday, I put on my wizard's coat.
Unless a mothership should happen to be hovering over L.A., in which case, no doubt, even Sunday would be changed.
I think so.
I guess so.
All right.
Look, we've got a number of things to talk about.
First of all, CAUSE stands for what?
Citizens Against UFO Secrecy.
Right on.
It's an Arizona-based public interest organization that believes it's through the legal process that hopefully we can learn the truth about what is interacting with this reality, what this other intelligence is that is coming in contact with people.
And you're an attorney who is virtually, what, retired, given up your day job?
Exactly.
Why would an attorney do that, Peter?
Because this is the reason I'm here.
It's my purpose.
It's my Dharma.
As you were saying earlier in the show about the Earth changes, it's amazing the intensity of the energy that's occurring right now, and it seems to be escalating internally for me, and I'm sure as well as other people, including yourself, and externally on the planet, projected onto the planet.
So the people that are here are here now for a purpose, for this particular time.
This is a very exciting time, whether it's Y2K or a war.
Or do I agree with that in every sense of the word?
Or first contact, possibly.
But this is the reason we are all here.
If we're here now, this is the reason for it.
So let's watch it unfold as a witness without reacting to it.
But my particular purpose is this contact.
It's almost like this cosmic computer program that we call reality has been infected with a virus.
And we see evidence of that.
Reality infected with a virus.
I'm going to keep that and hold that one.
I like it, Peter.
So basically, I'm looking for my day in court so that I can present evidence in an open court so that the public can scrutinize and see what this contact is.
I can prove in a court of law and beyond a reasonable doubt that we are in contact with another form of intelligence.
That's quite a strong statement to make.
Now, I understand in this quest, Peter, That the judge just dismissed your lawsuit against the Army.
You were suing the Army for what?
For documents that Colonel Philip Corso discussed in his book, Day After Roswell, specifically alien autopsy reports that he stated that he saw in 1961 and information about alien bodies that he said he saw in 1947 at Fort Riley, Kansas.
But a civil or is it a federal judge?
What kind of judge?
It's a civil federal judge.
It's a civil case under the Freedom of Information Act, and it's brought in federal court before a United States District Court judge.
So then you were endeavoring to order the Army, military, to reveal whatever it knew about what Corso had uncovered.
Is that about correct?
That's exactly what my objective was.
Now, the only burden on the government is a reasonable search for the documents.
And the bottom line is that what Corso said he saw occurred in 1947 and 1961.
So without getting into whether Corso was telling the truth or not, the Army just said, we don't have the documents.
We do not have them now in 1999.
They didn't admit they ever had them.
They just couldn't find them.
And that's all that's required, a reasonable search.
So it was dismissed.
And with all due respect, Colonel Corso... No, no, wait a minute.
Let me... I'm not quite clear.
Uh, the Army actually did the search and said it couldn't find anything.
No documents.
It even looked at Walter Reed Hospital's records, computerized search, and it looked in various places that I do not remember right now.
And according to the court, it submitted affidavits.
Well, I'm not quite clear then on what you were asking the court to do if the Army had said they couldn't find anything.
Oh, the bottom line is Colonel Corso gave me an affidavit before he died.
Swearing to what he said he saw in the book.
Gotcha.
So I asked the court to send the army back and justify what happened to the documents.
My argument was that the court of affidavit establishes that the documents existed at one time.
I've got you.
And so on what grounds, then, did the judge toss this out?
Because what I was asking, there is no precedent for.
The standard is a reasonable search, not an exhaustive search.
And basically, Corso is no longer alive.
So I have a little problem, even going forward, assuming that it wasn't dismissed.
But basically, the court found that their search was reasonable under the circumstances.
Did not buy my argument that they had to justify.
Nowhere in the Freedom of Information Act or any cases does it say an agency has to justify why it hasn't found documents.
Peter, I love you, but you know something?
Are not going to tell us until they want us to know.
I mean, that really is the bottom line, and you could file stuff until the cows came home, probably, and not get anywhere if they don't want you to get anywhere.
Well, I'm going to keep on knocking at the door as long as I have legal justification to bring lawsuits, as long as they're not frivolous.
Well, I like your spirit.
And it's funny, it might be a frivolous, listen to this thought, it might be a frivolous lawsuit that I need.
In other words, I might need the judge to dismiss, say, this lawsuit I'm bringing under the invasion clause of the United States Constitution.
If the judge dismisses that because it's frivolous, then I might get a hearing.
I need a hearing where I can present evidence.
Yeah, and we need people like you and Stephen Bassett, but I tell Stephen the same things that I'm telling you, that, you know, where you can pound your head up against a wall in Washington and all you'll get is a bloody head until they want you to know something.
Well, it's not just finding out anything from the government.
It's bringing attention to this contact.
It's getting the media, it's being on your show.
And you know who has the final say, who has the power?
Us, the people.
And that's why I'm so grateful for you giving me and Kort the opportunity to be on your show, because I need evidence.
I need evidence because the Department of Defense, in the present court lawsuit now, for the flying triangles, the V-shaped objects, the Department of Defense has answered the complaint by stating that it has no information on the flying triangle.
It searched the Joint Chiefs of Staff, right?
Joint Chiefs of Staff, you would think they would at least know, and it searched the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, DARPA.
You would think they would have the information, and they have come back, and they have stated they have no information.
So, in other words, we're just about exactly where we were after the Colonel Corso search, right?
Well, now I can There's a conference on June 14th.
I have to establish the existence of this object to the court's satisfaction in order to argue that if I can show that this object exists, then the Department of Defense has to know about it, no matter what its origin or identity is.
Of course they know about it.
You and I both know they know about it.
But I have to get the court to order a hearing.
On the issue of whatever, the existence of the object.
I need a hearing where I can present evidence, where I can present eyewitnesses.
But Skeptical Me says, I hear you, but you and I both again know damn well if they put the national security stamp on it, classified, whatever it is, They're not going to admit they've got any triangles anywhere, period.
And I know damn well they do, because I saw one, but they're not going to admit it.
Well, the interesting point in the earlier cases, in the 1977 case with the CIA and the 1980 case with the National Security Agency, both of those agencies admitted they had documents.
The CIA said they had 57, the National Security Agency said they had 135.
Both agencies withheld the documents on national security grounds with the court's blessing.
So the Department of Defense could have come forward and said, yes, we have documents, but they're classified under national security, and the court would have upheld that.
But they didn't do that.
That's the concerning point.
In other words, they didn't say that.
They said they have no information.
Well, Peter, for a decade of my life, I lived on the island of Okinawa.
I worked for a Japanese company, which broadcasts in English to the soldiers there on Okinawa, all the GIs and their families.
A quarter of a million, a lot of people there.
Commercial Broadcast Station, and every single day, Peter, when I was there, a Japanese reporter from Channel 12 TV in Naha would go to Kadena, and he'd stand out at the end of the runway, you know, actually off base, but at the end of the runway, and Kadena would send out a spokesperson, and the Japanese fellow would ask him, are there B-52s flying from Okinawa?
And he would categorically state that's an absolute untruth.
There are no B-52s flying in support of anything going on.
And as he would be saying that, Peter, you could actually, the camera in the background would catch a B-52 taking off on its way to Laos.
I'm not kidding.
It's amazing what people put up with.
We're like sheep.
But what I need from your listeners The millions and millions of people out there.
I need information.
I need evidence.
I need affidavits.
I'm sure thousands and thousands of your listeners, because it's a selective, focused audience, I'm sure they have seen this object.
I need them to contact me.
I need videos.
I need photographs.
Plus, the lawsuit involving the invasion, Article 4, Section 4, against the states, centers around the alien abduction phenomena.
In other words, Over 30 years, hundreds and thousands of people have reported similar type of violations from different parts of the planet.
I think it's time we were concerned about this.
I need affidavits from these people because so far the FBI, Defense Intelligence Agency, and Department of Defense have denied any information on this phenomenon.
Of course.
It's like we're living in two different realities.
It's like Wizard of Oz.
What's behind the curtain?
Just watch what's going on.
Watch the impeachment.
Watch the war.
Watch Y2K.
Just don't watch this other reality that's going on that's flying in our skies and intruding into our homes and invading our bodies.
Let me tell you something.
These acts, these are criminal acts done by human beings, what these people are reporting.
And simply because they're describing a perpetrator that is non-human in appearance, it's totally discounted.
I know.
It's amazing.
I think we have to look at that.
So any kind of attention that we bring to that, who knows?
If the universe wants certain things to happen, then we will get a favorable judge.
Maybe there will be a slip-up.
Maybe somebody will make a mistake.
Maybe they'll dismiss my case.
But again, this is skeptical old me.
Let's say that you get a judge who believes every word of, let's say, the triangle argument.
And the judge orders an absolute thorough search, or whatever.
Okay.
Are they still going to come back and say, Uh-uh.
I don't know.
You know, if the judge does not go along with any dismissal, then I'm entitled to discovery.
And that includes subpoena power to take depositions.
Oh, now that would be fun.
Right, and I'm ready to take the deposition of the Secretary of Defense, of somebody in DARPA, somebody in the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
I'm ready to take... Would they actually have to respond and come to a deposition, or...
Uh, could there be a ruling, again, using the old National Defense label that, uh, sorry, Colonel So-and-so isn't going to be there?
The only problem is that they have already stated they don't have any information.
So how does a non-information issue affect national security?
You know, in other words, according to them, they should be open to take their positions because They don't have any information, and they're going to tell me they don't have any information.
So I not only want to take the deposition of the heads of the Department of Defense in DARPA, I want to take the deposition from Luke Air Force Base about what the Phoenix Lights were about that night, because that's a perfect case of this object, or the Hudson Valley sightings, or what happened in Belgium, or all over the planet.
But there are certain events that are the best evidence, and that's the Hudson Valley, the Phoenix Lights, and the Belgium Triangles.
You have big colonies, Peter.
Hey, what else?
This is why I'm here.
And this is the particular time period that I came for.
I've been waiting for this period.
This is your time, huh?
This is my... it's your time, too.
Yeah, I know.
Oh, believe me, I know.
It's an interesting time.
You're absolutely right about that.
And I am not going to forget for a long time reality infected with a virus.
Those are the times we're living in, folks.
Reality has indeed been infected with some kind of virus, and things are all twisted and weird, like we all slipped a cog and went into part of another dimension or something.
Is that too weird for you?
Anyway, we'll break here at the bottom of the hour.
Now get a pencil and paper, because you've got to join this man's efforts.
I am.
I realize it's like batting your head up against a wall.
But, as Peter just said, that's what we're here for.
And if it's a battle, you might as well join.
Because it's a good fight.
I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight's an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from May 12, 1999.
This is a presentation of the Coast to Coast AMX-3.
Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from May 12th, 1999.
Peter Gersten is here, and he brought with him reality.
Think about this, reality infected with a virus.
Troops may be on the way to Kosovo shortly.
Totally.
Tony Blair is talking about it.
These, indeed, are very, very strange times, aren't they?
Anyway, Peter, we'll be back, and you can help.
And I guess you've got a choice to either get involved or just sort of throw up your hands and say there's nothing we can do.
And that's not a good place to be, so if you want to know how to be involved, Have the paper and the pencil ready?
The first thing you can do is join P.A.U.S.E.
We'll tell you all about it.
You'll still get all the same great features for the same low price, just 15 cents a day when you sign up for one year.
The package includes podcasting, which offers the convenience of having shows downloaded automatically to your computer or MP3 player, and the iPhone app with live and on-demand programs.
You'll also get our amazing download library of free full years of shows.
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You never know what you'll hear on Coast to Coast AM with George Norris.
You know, there is terrorism out there.
So, in an effort to try to fight it or combat it, we give up these rights.
I'm convinced that there are groups out there, sinister, horrible groups, That would create this terror to continue to control us.
I think you're absolutely correct.
But of course, anybody that's followed the process of government throughout history, once a government has been given a certain amount of power, it always seeks more.
And to suggest that our government is different because it's America, I guess that just shows how historically ignorant the American people have become.
Because in a real sense, these things are our fault.
Americans are, in fact, now trading liberty for security.
Every day, this is going to happen now, in our future, that we're going to allow this.
It's just a matter of time.
Now we take you back to the night of May 12th, 1999, on Ark Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Back now to Peter Gersten.
Peter, here we are again.
Now the first thing I want everybody, I think everybody should do, is know that there is a free daily cause bulletin sent out at absolutely no charge by email from you.
And it goes out to thousands of people every day and they get the latest news on what's going on in ufology.
And it's free.
I mean, all you've got to do is tell them how to do it.
As I told you, the intensity is increasing.
The energy is getting stronger.
It's different.
And Kors is going with it, going with the flow, and growing.
And it's growing both online, with what you just described, and offline.
And online, Kors now has a new webmaster, and that's Keith Rowland.
And I think you have some relationship with him and some contact with him.
You know I do.
So that's wonderful, and we're only going to make giant leaps ahead.
But CAUSE is an internet organization.
You do need internet capability, email, and so forth.
And if you do, then I would suggest you go to the CAUSE website, which is www.caus.org, and scroll to the bottom where you can sign up for these free CAUSE websites, CAUSE updates, and we send out information every day.
I mean, you just can't beat that, folks.
If you want the latest on ufology, even before I get it on the air tonight, Peter's going to have it laying in your mailbox during the day, and it's free.
It is free.
Are you listening?
F-R-E, free.
All you need is a computer.
Go to a site and sign up, and from then on, you'll be getting them for free.
You simply can't beat that.
Now, that's a wonderful thing to do for everybody, Peter.
And the other side, of course, there is another side, right?
Which is the offline side, you mean?
Yeah.
Yeah, well, what we're doing now is because I've been told, I don't know if this is true, that, you know, 70% of your listeners do not have internet access.
Oh, I'm sure that's true.
That's millions of people that CAUSE is not reaching.
So what we're going to be doing now is putting out a newsletter, an offline newsletter called CAUSE and EFFECT.
And we're going to send those newsletters out once a month.
And it's going to contain the highlights of the court updates that we send out every day.
So that there is nobody that can miss what's going on.
Evidence of this contact.
Personal contact experiences that we share.
Commentaries.
Citing reports.
Updates about what we're doing in court.
Everybody should be made aware of this.
But since it is offline, and since there are costs involved, we have to charge a nominal fee.
And that fee basically is $15, a little over a dollar a month.
Fifteen dollars a year?
A year.
Oh, that's not bad at all.
And it's going to be well worth it.
So basically, in order to subscribe to the newsletter or to call me or to U.S.
mail me, there's an address and a phone number.
OK.
OK, so credit cards we take.
Either you can email me or call me up and so forth and so on.
But I would suggest you support the cause by by going to the cause website, signing up for the cause update.
And then you'll be a member of Cause Automatically, or if you don't have internet access, if you can't go online, then subscribe to Cause and Effect, and you'll get the same information.
Boy, you're good with names.
Cause and Effect.
That's great.
And one other point, let me just bring this other point up.
In my opinion, this three-dimensional reality that we exist in, that we call life, is nothing more than a futuristic technology.
It's a cosmic, sophisticated computer program, And I definitely do see a virus that has infiltrated this, a cosmic virus.
That's so tempting.
I'm going to have to run with that, but I'll always have to credit you with it.
How'd you come up with this concept, anyway?
I get information.
I've been seeing 11.11 again, and with that, I'm getting more information about why I'm here.
And that information has to do with the fact That something is not right on this planet.
A complaint was made, for want of a better term, and I am here to investigate what it is, and what I've been told is that it has to do with the computer program that is creating this reality that's been infected with the virus.
Because there is, for want of a better term, a prime directive that cannot be violated.
And it seems to be violated.
We are interacting with another life form that has no business here at this particular time in our evolution.
By the way, with regard to this other life form, do you have any opinions about their intention?
Are they friendly?
Not so friendly?
Downright hostile?
I mean, where do you think they fit in?
Well, once again, Art, I deal with evidence.
And there's a legal instruction in a criminal case on how you determine a person's intent.
Right?
To determine whether he had the intent to kill, or the intent to, say, rape, or the intent to rob.
And that intent involves many different characteristics, many different ways, such as the person's actions, the person's statements, and there's probably a couple of other, you know, the natural consequence of his actions.
So I have reports from people about abductions.
Abductions seem to be non-consensual.
I'm assuming That that is not something that's beneficial.
I also get reports that there are benevolent encounters with beings who give great advice in different ways.
But I'm not concerned with the benevolent encounters.
I'm concerned with the hostile ones.
I think a lot of the benevolent encounters have probably more to do with the Stockholm Syndrome than anything else.
Well, I'm not familiar with the Stockholm situation.
Oh, you're not?
Nope.
That's where you begin to identify with the cause of your captors.
Yeah, the abductor.
Well, I guess those people that have these contacts benevolent would disagree, because they don't describe an abduction scenario.
They describe a beautiful, angelic kind of contact, or an act that gives you certain information.
The abductions are unique because of the fear involved.
Yes, I've been told that, well, that's a misinterpretation of a contact experience.
And I say, well, I'm not going to judge somebody else's experience.
If that person comes into a police station and says they've just been raped, the desk sergeant's not going to look at them and say, well, maybe you misinterpreted what your perpetrator intended.
You're exactly right.
You know, so I got 30 years of listening to these stories.
You know, and I think it's beyond the point of just recording them and publishing books and talking about them at conferences.
I think it's time we did something about it to at least find out what kind of aberration or actual contact experience these people are having.
Because it's possible that what they're perceiving is actually what's occurring.
And if that's happening, then I think that should be our number one priority as a species.
I wouldn't disagree with any of that for a second.
It's just that, you know, if there has been contact with Arab government or governments, then obviously some kind of deal has been made because we haven't been told about it.
I mean, that's a logical conclusion, is it not?
Well, the government has more information.
Whatever the government is, whether it's political... I talk for me to believe that these political elected officials know anything more than anybody else does.
It might be the military establishment.
Or the group above that, or the group above that.
The people that are in power for a lifetime, or maybe more than one lifetime.
It depends on what kind of technology they have.
The bottom line is, there's a technology that's interacting with us.
There would appear to be a life form that's interacting with us that I think we should find out about now.
And I would do anything.
Hopefully, I don't have to make the ultimate secret a reality in order to get what I need.
But, you know, I would be prepared to do anything to get the truth out.
Well, here's something to think about.
If that great truth really is out there, the elusive truth, and you really did get close to getting it, and it's that big a deal, they'd stop you.
Well, I think I'm protected.
I don't think they can interfere with me.
For whatever reason, I know it's hard to accept and believe, but that's my belief.
In other words, I don't think that anything can happen to me.
I think I'm protected.
That's one of the rules of this reality.
So they leave me alone, and basically I leave them alone as far as doing anything other than what's within the rules of this society as of this time.
But basically, what I need is the people out there to support me.
They are the evidence.
They are the witnesses.
I need them to call me.
Yeah, you don't really think you could become, I'm going to be frank here, too much of a pain in the ass suddenly for them.
No, they can't do anything to me.
It's a violation.
The game would be over.
You know, they can't.
In other words... But Peter, the whole thing is a violation.
Well, but that's why I'm here.
In other words, there's certain like... Like what's the word?
Like inspectors or something, you know?
Everything in a two-dimensional reality, you know, whether we see on the movies or even on a three-dimensional reality, is a metaphor for what actually is occurring.
So basically, you see, You know, in the movies, certain things, information, you see in Kosovo, you know, or actually in Iraq, about inspectors, how they're neutral, things like that.
Basically, I think I'm one of the inspectors that are neutral, that cannot be interfered with.
Interesting.
Proposition, and I hope for your sake and many of our sakes that you are correct.
Well, I'm here for this reason.
In other words, that's why I always said with Richard, when he had the heart attack, I even told him today, I said, Richard, I knew nothing was going to happen to you because you're here for this particular period.
You're not going to leave now.
It would be anticlimactic for you.
Really, you ought to give the audience an update.
You did.
I talked to Richard the other day.
You talked to Richard.
Earlier today, please give everybody an update.
Richard is doing extremely well under the circumstances.
He's involved in certain alternative types of healing modalities.
He's dying to talk about them, too.
And he's about to return.
He's writing an article that will soon be posted, I would assume, on his website.
I think he's going to be speaking out a little bit more about some of the things he was accused of not talking about.
Before his illness, I think he's going to become a little more vocal in that response.
Richard, more vocal?
Well, as far as criticism is concerned, he used to avoid responding.
I admire that in him, because I couldn't do it, and you can't do it.
He did it, but I think he's going to come a little forward and try to respond to some of the attacks, especially the attack that his His heart attack was a sham and a fraud.
Actually, that was horrible.
The same group of people have been out there saying Richard Hoagland faked his heart attack.
Isn't that ridiculous?
It's horrible.
He's on, according to what I heard the other day, a special monitor now because unfortunately, maybe just a little hiccup here, but they have detected an arrhythmia That they're not sure about, so they've got like a monitor on them 24 hours a day that reads back to the hospital or something?
I'm not sure, I don't remember.
No, he's not completely well, and he has a long way to go before he's completely well.
He really suffered a severe heart attack.
Yes, I know.
They cut part of his, I think, heart out, out of one of the arteries or veins.
So he can't even go back home to New Mexico.
I know, not to that altitude.
Right.
So he has to stay in Florida and be constantly treated.
In other words, his life has changed 100%.
You know, he's not the same person he was a couple of months ago.
No, he is not.
Though I will say, it's still Richard.
Oh, definitely.
When I heard that voice today, oh, it's that voice again.
There you are.
Yes, it was great hearing from him.
Alright, so basically, in your cause, you need help.
You need help.
You need help from everybody.
People who have seen the triangular objects, just like the one I saw.
There's no doubt in my mind, Peter, and that might make me sound like some to a fruitcake, but I assure you I'm not.
My wife's not.
It flew directly over our heads.
It exists.
I promise you all, it does exist.
It exists.
It's either ours or it's theirs.
Either way, it's a big damn story.
The people have to help me prove it.
They have to help me prove that these abductions are going on.
And they have to support me in any way, including financially.
It's as simple as that.
All right.
And to that end, they can go to your website.
They get a free everyday daily flopper there in your computer that comes to you and tells you everything that's going on in the UFO community.
You get the latest every day, and it's free.
You simply go to www.cause.org, correct?
Well, go to your website and click on the link under my name.
That's right.
We have it linked, and so just go there, fill out the little form, you'll get the reports every day.
Otherwise, the new newsletter can be yours for a phone call.
Peter, you have been wonderful.
As always, thank you, and I hope we can break through the wall, my friend.
We will try as hard as we can, my friend.
That's why we're here.
Okay, well answer your phone.
Yeah, I'm getting buzzed all over the place.
Thank you, it's a pleasure.
The pleasure has been mine.
That's a man with a really serious mission in life, folks.
And who knows?
He just might do it.
But I mean, here's somebody who's an attorney.
The guy could be making gazillions of dollars.
And he's sort of tossed that all aside to do this.
I mean, that's quite something to do when you think about it.
Now, I have received endless faxes, not email, because I can't even get to my email right now, endless faxes saying that, hey Art, did you see yourself on Seven Days?
The TV science fiction show Seven Days that ran on UPN tonight.
And the answer is no.
I didn't, dammit.
They said it depicted a character, a Nevada-based conspiracy theorist, and radio personality.
I had no idea they were going to run that, and if somebody caught it out there, I would appreciate your sending me this particular episode, since apparently I was sort of depicted now I guess they didn't do that by name but Nevada is not exactly a real big place and in terms of conspiracy theorists though I don't feature myself that I know that the public looks at it that way and radio talk show hosts there aren't that many in that category so apparently they did something or another that
That sort of had to do with me, and if somebody would send me a copy of the program, I'd like that very much.
We're going to pause.
When we come back, we're going to be talking about who we were, and what may have been here before us, and what evidence there is for that.
This is really something that demands your attention.
Think about it.
There may have been an entire civilization, or maybe many of them, that have come and gone for whatever reasons.
We may not be the first.
So that's coming up.
Forbidden Archaeology.
I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
tonight featuring a replay of coast to coast am from may twelfth nineteen ninety nine
and the
the the
the Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing?
To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing?
To have all these things in our memories whole?
And the universe is ours to find.
And the universe is ours to find.
www.mooji.org Take this place, on this trip, just for me.
Why, why would you go taking place on this trip to memory?
Why, take a free ride to the place I've always seen in my dreams?
Why, when I've waited for years, it's so hard to do it right?
I'm a man with my fear, and to win my life I call my name, but I know, I know, I should
not be afraid.
Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
Tonight's program originally aired May 12, 1999.
It's a strange night in the desert, folks.
The winds are whipping.
The computer lines between here in Las Vegas and outward are basically down, so I don't
have my ISDN line.
They don't have video.
And I don't have access to my normal computer stuff.
I feel crippled.
I'm going to be a victim of Y2K, there's no question about it.
Last hour we spent with, uh, Peter Gersten, an attorney, who has started an organization called Cause, And he made a statement that I'm never going to forget.
He said, Art, we live in a world, a reality today, virtually infected with a virus.
Think about that.
What a concept.
Reality infected with a virus.
In a moment, we're going to talk to Michael Primo, not about today, but about yesterday, or a lot of yesterdays.
Actually, forbidden archaeology is going to be the subject, along with others.
We'll talk to him about a lot of things.
We'll get underway in a moment.
Let me tell you what I just got.
This just broke.
During this last weekend, there were two tornadoes that killed five people in Cuba.
That's right.
Cuba.
The Communist Party daily, Grama, said that two tornadoes damaged hundreds of homes, and they're just now telling us about this electricity telephone service out In those communities, but two tornadoes in Cuba of all places.
I'm telling you, our weather is going south.
I'm telling you, our weather is going south.
service of Coast to Coast AM has a new name.
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The package includes podcasting, which automatically downloads shows for you, and the iPhone app.
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You'll find it on Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
In Indonesia, rice farmers got quite a surprise when they discovered that overnight, a large crop circle had mysteriously formed in one of their fields.
There has to be a reason, though, for the geometric patterns here.
But I don't think the point is to decipher them.
I think the point is to realize that there's other intelligence in the universe.
They're visiting us.
We're not visiting them.
So until they tell us who they are, it's a mystery.
Now we take you back to the night of May 12th, 1999, on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
Alright, normally I would read a bio for Michael Cremo, who's coming on the air now.
I think instead tonight it'd be fun just to have him tell us a little bit about himself.
If you were to do your own little bio, Michael, and you were to have to explain to the audience who you are, what would you say?
You know, recently a friend of mine told me that perhaps I'm a reincarnation of Charles Darwin.
Come back to correct a very bad mistake.
Because, you know, a lot of the work that I do really challenges what the Darwinists have been saying for the past 150 years.
Yes, I know.
It makes them very angry, actually.
Yeah, I mean, we've got all of this evidence for extreme human antiquity that's been hidden away in the scientific archives, which, you know, we've tried to open up and let people have a look at and see what's there.
So, I think my friend may have I had a pretty good idea there.
What's in your background, Michael, that brought you to this?
Well, you know, it's very strange because there's nothing in my educational background that would have brought me into the field of archaeology.
When I was going to the University, George Washington University, back in the 1960s, I was in the School of International Affairs.
I was preparing for a career in the government.
I was studying Russian and German and international politics because I grew up.
Well, something drastic obviously occurred to you.
Well, I don't know.
Maybe it's the fact that Washington, D.C.
burned down and they brought in the 82nd Airborne Division to quell the riots there.
I mean, maybe that had something to do with it.
But I got disillusioned with government at a certain point.
And I got disillusioned with the university system of education.
At that point, I just went off on what I would call, I don't know, a spiritual quest.
It led me to different countries around the world.
In other words, you got disillusioned with lies, really?
Well, yeah.
I think I was.
Isn't that what it really comes down to?
I think so.
I think I was disillusioned about all the lies about what success means, what the truth is.
And of course I was there right in the center.
I used to go to some of the congressional hearings.
I think that was a pretty good thing.
When I went to the Fulbright hearings about what was going on in Vietnam, I heard Senator Fulbright standing up practically alone and saying something that nobody else was saying at the time.
Now, I think I wanted to find out things myself, and that's why I You're being my being, all of our beings.
We all have the same questions about where we came from, how we got here, and where we're going.
There's some risk.
truth of my own being or the truth about the world, whatever you want to call it.
Well, it's common.
I mean, your being, my being, all of our beings, we all have the same questions about where
we came from, how we got here and where we are going.
And there is some risk.
I mean, there is some risk when you depart from, I don't know, I guess the ruts that
have been worn in the pavement and set out on your own.
There is a lot of risk.
And I don't know.
My travels led me to India.
I became very fascinated with the ancient Sanskrit writings of India, among other cultures.
That's what really got me interested in this whole question of, well, where did we come from?
These stories of human civilizations existing on this planet for tens of millions, perhaps hundreds of millions of years, that's what really inspired me.
My co-author, Richard Thompson, who had a similar path, his path came from the scientific world.
He was a mathematician.
I had come from the international politics school
uh... but we both wound up in the same place and asking the same questions
and uh... that's what got us into the eight years of research that resulted in
uh... forbidden archaeology and it's the abridged edition of that book the hidden history of the
human race the guest i had on just before you peter gerstin said
something that will stick with me for a long time
I repeated it, and I think at the top of the hour, he said he believes we live in a world today, a reality infected with a virus.
That's really something to think about.
We do live in very strange, strange times, Michael, and it's kind of like reality has been infected with a virus.
I really like that.
Any thoughts?
Well, I tend to agree with that.
I mean, in the ultimate issue, I think that the real atmosphere that we're meant to live in is a spiritual atmosphere, and I think what we have now is mixed with something.
It's mixed with something else, and sorting out what is truth and what is falsehood is part of that.
You know, when I was traveling around the world earlier in my life, I came to the conclusion it was all wings of the same asylum.
I thought just by changing my location on the planet I might get out of what I considered to be an asylum.
But it didn't work out that way.
No, it's everywhere.
There's something else.
There's something more involved than changing one's physical location.
No, it's everywhere.
It doesn't matter what discipline we're talking about these days, whether it's Gerstin's legal attack to try to get to the truth on ufology and these objects that are in our skies, or it's you, Michael, talking about the fact that there may have been a civilization here long before ours, or maybe even several of them.
What is your current belief, by the way?
Well, my current belief is...
Civilization is a difficult question.
It's a difficult one to prove from the archaeological record.
But I think the presence of human beings like ourselves in our current biological form, that would be the prerequisite for any kind of civilization, whether it's advanced or maybe a little more primitive.
But I think the presence of human beings like ourselves is the first prerequisite.
And I think There's evidence that human beings like ourselves have existed on this planet for about 2 billion years.
Now that was a hypothesis I dragged out.
Now let's think about 2 billion years.
Fundamentalist Christians, many believe that we have been here for 6,000 years.
That's a belief many of them have, that's correct.
Yes, 6,000 years only.
Very short time indeed.
Now traditional archaeology Uh, would say what?
About a hundred thousand years.
A hundred thousand years.
Right.
Now that's a great divide, but not nearly so great a divide as the one you're talking about.
Uh, so we have this on scale.
Religious fundamentalists, six thousand years.
Traditional archaeologists, a hundred thousand years.
Uh, Michael Cremo, a couple of billion years.
Yeah, and that's, uh, that's quite shocking to many people.
Especially among the Orthodox archaeologists.
It's very interesting.
Some of the younger people coming into that discipline now, they don't seem to have the same closed minds as some of their elders.
I was in Warsaw, Poland recently.
I'd been invited there by the publisher of my book.
It was one of the best sellers in that country last year.
I was in Warsaw and an archaeologist there told me he said he didn't know a single graduate student of archaeology in Warsaw who hadn't read the Polish edition of this book.
And he said they were getting into fights with their professors about it, which I thought was great.
Again, the title of your book?
Well, the one that's out now is called The Hidden History of the Human Race, which is A paperback, abridged edition of the original 900-page hardcover Forbidden Archaeology.
Alright, so it's a follow-up to that, right?
Well, it's an abridged version of it because... Abridged, alright.
Many... I guess many people... Look at 900... They're going to look at 900 pages and go, I can't do that.
Right, so this is a shorter version of that book.
Alright, I've got you.
Yeah.
What is in that book that you would cite as proof Now, it's harder to prove that we've been here two billion years than it is to prove, I would suppose, that we've been here more than a hundred thousand.
Yeah.
Well, the oldest piece of evidence that Richard Thompson and I encountered in our research was these round metallic spheres that have been found over the past twenty years or so by miners in South Africa at a place called Otosdalen.
Round metallic spheres.
Yeah, and they're found in a mineral deposit.
Now, it's a very interesting mineral deposit in which they're found.
This mine produces a mineral called pyrophyllite, which is used to make the tiles on the heat shield of the space shuttle.
It's really pretty amazing.
It's one of the few places in the world where they've got this mineral.
It's a very heat-resistant mineral.
But in any case, these round metallic spheres are found solidly embedded Yes.
in this mineral at this one particular mine at a place called Oto's Dallen in the western
Transvaal in South Africa.
We showed them on a television show that was broadcast on NBC a couple of years ago, but
before they were filmed, the producers gave them to some metallurgists to have them analyzed.
They turned out to be made of a naturally occurring iron ore called hematite.
They say that hematite is used even today by a lot of tribal peoples in Africa and elsewhere
in the world as a semi-precious stone.
They use it for decorative purposes.
But these round spheres, which are about one to two inches in diameter, and there were hundreds of them found in these mineral deposits, have this very interesting feature.
They have parallel grooves running around the equators.
You know, two, three, four, maybe sometimes some of them just have one of these grooves.
But, you know, the meddler just said they couldn't see any way in which these grooves could have been formed or the objects could have been formed naturally in Europe.
Last November I was at a MUFON conference.
I spoke at a MUFON conference in New Hampshire and an engineer, one of the MUFON people there, Asked to have one of these, and so I gave him one to analyze.
He cut it in half, and he said that the radius of it varies by less than one four thousandth of an inch all the way around, and he thought that was unusual.
He thought that was a pretty high tolerance for a supposed natural object.
Almost impossible, actually.
objects were shown on an NBC television special called the mysterious origins of man
There was quite a discussion about them on the internet, which I was monitoring and one geologist had said he had
claimed He says well, you could find these things anywhere all over
the world So I asked him you know, I put up a message and I said well
if that's true, perhaps you could send me either a scientific report about it or a photograph
or better yet a specimen
And he wasn't able to do either one of those three things.
And why would he make a statement like that?
Well, you often find this.
It's called bluffing.
And really what it's like, I'll tell you what it's like, because they want to bluff the other people who are listening.
It's like a mother or father who tries to scare their kid by saying, if you don't behave, there's a boogeyman in the closet.
No, I hear you, but if it's bluffing, then it's like being in a very high-stakes poker game for the truth.
Well, and I hope they play better poker than they do in their truth games, because they're going to lose.
Well, are they?
In other words, what can you conclude from these objects?
Now, the tolerance, you're right, seems impossible to occur naturally.
Well, another thing that metallurgists who analyzed them said was that they couldn't see any way in which these objects could have formed naturally in the earth.
And of course, well, one idea was, well, maybe somebody carved the grooves in afterwards.
But that's not true either, because I've seen specimens of these solidly embedded in rock, you know, partially exposed.
And you can see they have the grooves on, and they go all the way around, back through the solid rock.
And, you know, they're quite mysterious objects.
I mean, there's, I think, just in the absence Of any good natural explanation for how they could have formed, I think we have to consider the possibility that they were intelligently manufactured.
All right, let's say that we believe that for a second.
What do you imagine they might have been?
The only clue I have is the fact that, according to archaeologists, these things are made of Kind of semi-precious stone that is used for decorative purposes.
So, I have no firm idea what they could have been used for.
Now, some people have suggested, I mean I have heard all kinds of suggestions, that there were some kind of memory device that had information electronically coded in them, but I don't see any evidence of that.
I mean people have come up with all kinds of explanations.
And your best guess?
To me, right now, I prefer to think of them as a game piece, or some kind of bead, or something decorative.
But here's an interesting fact.
I heard reports, I never witnessed this myself, but there were some reports that These objects, there were some that were being kept.
There was one that was being kept at the Museum of Natural History in Klerkstorp, South Africa.
And?
It's the one that's actually pictured in the book.
We're almost out of time here.
And apparently there was a report that it would rotate by itself in its display case.
Oh now, see now, that gets my attention.
Alright, hold it right there.
Michael Cremo is my guest, and we're only just beginning.
Oh yes, that would certainly get your attention, wouldn't it?
If there was a round metal object, indeed, in the Earth a couple of billion years out, and you were looking at it, it began to rotate by itself, that definitely would get your attention.
You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
tonight's an encore presentation of coast to coast am from may 12 1999
oh my heart is on fire my soul's like a wheel that turns my
love is alive my love is alive yeah yeah yeah yeah
oh so
so hey
okay so
You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight's an on-going presentation of Coast to Coast AM, from May 12th, 1999.
Peter Gersten, this night.
Reality has been infected with a virus.
Knock that one around for a while.
Good morning.
Michael Cremo is here.
Imagine finding balls of metal in Africa, deep down.
God knows how old, we'll ask in a moment, that have been known to rotate by themselves.
Now that's getting warmer.
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In Indonesia, rice farmers got quite a surprise when they discovered that overnight, a large crop circle had mysteriously formed in one of their fields.
There has to be a reason, though, for the geometric patterns here.
But I don't think the point is to decipher them.
I think the point is to realize that there's other intelligence in the universe.
They're visiting us.
We're not visiting them.
So until they tell us who they are, it's a mystery.
You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight's an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM, from May 12th, 1999.
12, 1999.
Once again, Michael Cremo.
Ah, well, what an intriguing place to leave off.
They've been known to actually, by themselves, in a display case, to rotate.
Well, that's the report.
It's interesting, the object that was reported to do that, that's the one we've got a photograph of in the book.
After the book was published, a Dutch television producer got in touch with me and he said, well, I'd like to go down to South Africa and film it.
Right.
So I inquired from the museum director about it, whether it was possible for somebody to go down there and film it.
And the curator of the museum said that that particular object had been stolen by what he called a white witch.
A white witch.
Anyway, so I hope it's being put to good use.
This gets better all the time.
The curator of the museum said it was stolen by a white witch.
That's right.
Sometimes objects do get stolen from museums.
That often happens.
How did he know it was a white witch, pray tell?
I didn't ask him.
He just wrote me in a letter that that's who stole it.
I'd be disinclined to continue to ask questions after that myself.
All right.
Fascinating.
How many of these balls are in general circulation?
Well, I've heard that hundreds of them were discovered.
I had about five or six of them.
I've given a couple of them away to be examined.
I was in Johannesburg recently and I talked to the mining engineer who originally provided me with the specimens.
And the mine is now closed.
It's not being actively worked anymore, but there are still, he's sending some people out to go through the tailings, you know, the blocks of the mineral that are scattered around out there to see if they can find any more, because where these things are found, they're found in round cavities inside this very Michael, how recently were you in Johannesburg?
Actually, I went in January.
I'd gone to Cape Town to speak at the World Archaeological Congress, which was an event in itself.
After that, I'd gone on a little speaking tour of South Africa, Cape Town, Durban, Johannesburg.
So, when I was in Johannesburg, I stopped in at the mining company headquarters.
Boy, I sure would love to have one.
I was in Johannesburg, and I was going to get you to comment.
That's one dangerous mother of a place right now.
Johannesburg is really dangerous.
There is a lot of crime.
Well, I know.
When I got to South Africa, The first day I was in Cape Town, I just stayed in my hotel.
I'm not going to live my life like that.
I walked out in the street.
Cape Town, though, was a dream compared to Johannesburg.
There was real trouble up there.
I know what you mean.
I live in Los Angeles.
You could get hurt on the streets of Los Angeles.
That's true.
Anyway, he may get you some more.
Is that right?
What's that?
He may get you some more.
Yeah, he's promised to do that.
He's a very good man, and I'm sure he'll do whatever he can to do that, because the Mufon engineer I gave one to is also going to look at the magnetic properties of these objects.
So I'm waiting to hear, but he reported to me on the radius that I mentioned, that the radius of the object that I gave him varies by less than one four thousandth of an inch all the way around the circumference of it.
Is there anything else in nature, this is a very important question, anything else in nature at all that produces something of that incredible precision?
Well, we'd have to see, you know.
That's a good question.
It might be interesting to look at pearls, for example, and see... Oh, they come in all kinds of shapes.
That's obvious to the eye.
Right, but the round ones.
Well, I guess they select the round ones to put on the... Those are the ones they go look for.
Yeah.
It'd be interesting to see what... Alright, well, that's intriguing.
What other best evidence is there that there were others?
And I know you've got quite a bit.
Well, you know, one thing One thing that's always fascinated me is not that there's one or two best evidences.
To me, the thing that really shocked me right in the beginning was how much of this evidence there is.
There are hundreds of reports of this evidence in the scientific literature.
Okay, well wow us with a few.
Well, one of the cases that I've found, well here's one.
This is one I encountered recently in Europe.
It's in the book.
Early in the century, there was a Belgian geologist, Dr. Rootote, who made some interesting discoveries in his country.
He found hundreds of stone tools and weapons and layers of rock 30 million years old.
Wow.
A couple of years ago, I was lecturing at the archaeology department at some of the major universities in Holland and Belgium.
So when I was in Brussels, there was a French-speaking friend of mine who was taking me around to the different universities.
So I said to him, why don't we get in touch with the Royal Museum of Natural Sciences in Brussels?
Because that's where I suspected these objects were being kept.
So when we first started talking to the museum officials, we got them on the phone.
They said, well, we don't know anything about it.
We haven't heard of this guy.
We don't know anything about it.
So then I said, well, let's not stop there.
Let's start calling around to the individual departments of the museum, talking to individual scientists.
Finally, we found one archaeologist who admitted, well, yes, we do have them.
They're being kept.
They're not being displayed to the public.
After some more negotiation, I got permission to, this one archaeologist, he agreed to let me come into the museum, and he took me into the storerooms.
It was a scene, it's just like, it's exactly like this scene from, what was that film?
Raiders of the Lost Ark.
You've got to be... I mean, you're talking about weapons.
Let's... so that we understand.
Well, you know, like arrowheads.
I mean, I'm talking... I'm not talking about ray guns or anything like that.
No, no, no, no, no.
That's fine.
Yeah.
So... Arrowheads, spear points, axe heads.
Steel points.
Axe heads.
Yeah, stone.
Made out of stone.
You know, flint.
Basically, they're made out of flint.
There were hundreds of them, and there were many different types.
There were scrapers, cutters... There was no mistaking that these absolutely had purpose.
These were not something abhorrent of nature, that nature created these things that looked like tools.
There was no controversy about that.
It's obvious they're tools, weapons, whatever.
To Rutoto it was obvious.
To me it was obvious.
I mean, to certain people, I guess you could always say, you know, Something's a hoax or a form by nature.
I mean, that's always a possibility.
Yeah, but with hundreds of objects?
Yeah, that's... But, you know, they're there, but they're not displayed to the public, you know, so... And they're 30 million years old.
Yeah.
And, well, there are things like that right here in the United States.
Okay, but how do we know they're 30 million years old?
They've done what kind of testing to establish that?
Here's how we know.
We've got, you know, Ruto was a professional geologist.
He conducted the excavations and he described, you know, exactly the locations in which they were found, the layers of rock.
There are characteristic fossils in these layers of rock.
And if you go to them, what I do is I go to the, you know, I look at the report, his report, of the exact location and the layers of the strata and things like that.
Then I go to the modern geological reporting of the exact same place and I see what these geologists today say is the age of the layers in which he reported he found these things in an undisturbed fashion.
That's where I get the age from.
It's from the modern geological literature on that particular location.
That's the way I work.
Basically, you have to have some kind of framework for discussing these things with the scientific community.
My God, think about what you're saying.
That there were, crude albeit, weapons, tools, signs of civilization of some sort, perhaps very primitive, who knows.
But 30 million years ago, Michael?
Yeah, well that would be before, see now they say the oldest, the very oldest ape man, the Australopithecines, the oldest fossils that they actually have are about 4 million years old.
And the first stone tools that are generally accepted are about 2.3 million years old.
There was a recent report that was circulating in the scientific journals like Nature that even reached into the newspapers about some discoveries in Ethiopia, the oldest stone tools according to the conventional idea.
These are about 2.3 million years old and they're fairly crude if you see the pictures of them.
So to have any kind of stone tool, even if it's a very crude one, Uh, that 30 million years blows everybody's little paradigm right out of the water.
Uh, yeah, that's exactly right.
And as I said, those objects are there, but they're not displayed to the public.
And there's, I mean, there's just the California gold mine case right here in the United States is another good example of that.
And here, I mean, it's even more.
I mean, nobody could doubt these.
All right, explain it to me.
Well, during the gold rush, you had miners going out to California.
They were digging tunnels into the sides of mountains to get... Curiously.
...to get out the gold.
Gold, yes.
So, maybe they'd be digging, say, in one report.
Okay, they're 1,000 feet inside.
And in the solid rock, the miners are finding human skeletons.
Obsidian spear points, stone mortars and pestles.
I mean, there's absolutely no question.
Human skeletons?
Yeah, not ape men.
Human?
Yeah.
And these were all reported to the scientific world by a professional scientist who was the state geologist in California at the time, a Dr. J.D.
Whitney.
Yes.
He wrote a huge book about these discoveries.
It's called The Geology of the Sierra Nevadas.
It was published by Harvard University in 1880.
And we don't hear about these today.
And they date them when?
Well, they're found in layers of rock that date to the early Eocene period, which means they'd be about 50 million years old.
50 million years old?
Yeah.
And again, this comes from the modern geological reporting of, say, these particular sites.
Say, one of these sites where these objects were found is Table Mountain in Tuolumne County.
Yes.
In the Sierra Nevadas.
Oh yes, I know it.
Right?
It's right there, and it's still considered an economically viable area, so it's been heavily studied right up to the present day by geologists.
You know, you can get from The California State Geological Survey, you know, very, very detailed studies of Table Mountain.
And you can find out how old the layers of rock are at all the different levels and all the different locations.
So, at this particular location, they're 50 million years old.
50 million years old.
And they're finding human skeletons.
Now, the only argument I could see that anybody could make Well, here's the problem with that.
at some time did we do some really graves
in relatively modern times but what is the problem with that
uh...
here's the problem with that the the gold deposits
were uh...
and gravels that were laid down by east-west running rivers
uh...
well north no north south running rivers okay and in the east seat
fifty million years ago Then, after that, here's what happened.
There were massive volcanic eruptions in that region of California.
And the whole area was covered by thousands of feet of solid basalt lava.
Solid rock.
And then what happened after that is you had rivers, new rivers, running West, I mean east to west, cutting out canyons, sometimes thousands of feet deep, leaving these mesas.
That's what Table Mountain is.
It's like a mesa.
Okay, so what you have is, these discoveries are made like in tunnels that were dug towards the bottom of Table Mountain, into the solid rock, straight inside.
So you go a thousand feet inside.
Now, nobody's going to dig a grave 1,000 feet.
No, through solid rock.
No, they're not.
And then directly above, you've got 800 feet of solid basalt with no fissures coming down.
Again, it's people... I mean, this often happens.
I'll be speaking at a university and somebody will say, obviously, you know, just as you raise a possibility.
Well, anything is possible.
But to me, it's like... No, no, no, no.
That's not possible.
No, no, no.
Not that far down into solid stone.
No way.
Well, that's what I mean.
When you know all the facts, you see it's impossible.
So that's... How do they account for it?
Well, they don't really account for it.
Here's what happened.
I mean, it's what I call a process of knowledge filtration.
A very influential anthropologist, Dr. William B. Holmes, who was working at the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, D.C.
So he had a prominent scientific position over this Dr. Whitney, who was out there in the provinces of California.
So what he said is this.
He said, if this Dr. Whitney had understood the theory of human evolution as we now understand it, Then he would have hesitated to announce his discoveries, despite the imposing array of testimony with which he was confronted.
Translation is if the facts don't fit the theory, then the facts have to be set aside.
So he should have read the theory before he spoke about what appears to be a truth that destroys it.
Right.
Now those objects are still kept in the C.B.
Hearst Museum of Natural History at the University of California.
Can they be seen?
Well, we tried to see them when we were filming this NBC television special, The Mysterious Origins of Man, narrated by Charlton Heston, broadcast a couple of years ago.
Of course.
Now, when they were filming that, I told the producers they should go there.
And the museum official said, well, maybe we have them, maybe we don't, but we wouldn't have time to look because you're obviously on a very tight deadline.
The producers said, no, we've got six months.
You've got to make the show.
Could you please have a look?
Maybe we have them, maybe we don't.
Well, essentially, that's not their exact words.
Michael, we're going to have to hold it right there.
We'll be right back.
Remember folks, reality.
Infected with a virus.
Chew it over.
You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from May 12th, 1999.
I'm a magical man, and all the birds in the trees, they be singing so happily, oh joyfully, oh playfully, watching me.
But then they send me away, teach me how to be sensible.
I'm logical, oh responsible Practical, and then they show me a world
I could be so dependable Oh clinical, oh
I'm logical, oh responsible I'm sailing away from the crest of a wave, just like magic
you Oh, rollin' and ridin' and slippin' and chattin' It's magic And you, and you feel just like I do Higher and higher, baby It's a living thing
It's a terrible thing to lose.
It's a given thing.
What a terrible thing to lose!
You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time.
Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from May 12th, 1999.
Well, my internet connections are out between here and Las Vegas.
And boy are they out.
I mean, I can't even get a studio cam picture to the website.
And I'm just realizing how crippled I feel.
Here we are talking about people who were walking around on the Earth 50 million years ago.
We're talking about strong evidence of that.
And here's Art saying his right leg feels like it's gone because he can't get through to the internet.
Are we dependent or what?
Not you, you say?
I'm realizing how dependent on all of this I am.
Absolutely amazing.
It's down and it's like I can't do a thing.
But actually I can.
I can do the show.
Michael Primo will be right back.
Streamlink, the audio subscription service of Coast to Coast AM has a new name.
has a new name.
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The package includes podcasting, which automatically downloads shows for you, and the iPhone app.
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That's over a thousand shows for you to collect and enjoy.
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Visit coasttocoastam.com to sign up.
You never know what you'll hear on Coast to Coast AM with George Norris.
You know, there is terrorism out there.
So, in an effort to try to fight it or combat it, we give up these rights.
I'm convinced...
That there are groups out there, sinister, powerful groups, that would create this terror to continue to control us.
I think you're absolutely correct.
But of course, anybody that's followed the process of governments throughout history, once a government has been given a certain amount of power, it always seeks more.
And to suggest that our government is different because it's America, I guess that just shows how historically ignorant the American people have become.
Because, in a real sense, these things are our fault.
Americans are, in fact, now trading liberty for security.
Every day, this is going to happen now in our future, that we're going to allow this.
It's just a matter of time.
Now we take you back to the night of May 12th, 1999, on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
Back to Michael Cremo, and the one thing I can do, because I'm telling you, my internet is flat gone.
Michael Cremo, back again.
The California Gold Rush.
Thousands of feet beneath solid rock, they find human, not pre-human, but human skeletons.
That's pretty impressive stuff, alright.
And we were talking about the museum who said, well, we might or might not have this stuff.
That's where we were.
Well, what happened is when we were filming the NBC television special, The Mysterious Origins of Man, which featured a lot of the material from the hidden history of the human race, the producers went there, on my advice, to the The Hurst Museum of Natural History at the University of California, Berkeley.
Sure.
I told them that those 50 million year old artifacts from those California gold mines were probably there.
So when I talked to the officials, when they got in contact with the officials, the officials said, well, we just don't have time to look for them because you're making a television program.
You've probably got a very tight deadline.
So the producers told them, no, we have Six months.
Could you have a look?
And then they came back with another excuse.
They said, well, you know, we'd have to pay our staff overtime to do this.
We have a very small budget.
We can't afford it.
The producers came back and said, well, we'll pay all the expenses.
Now, finally, they just said no.
Oh, now, now, really?
They just gave you any basis for a flat no?
They didn't give any reason.
They just said, no, we can't do it.
We're not going to do it.
And I think that's very strange.
I think it's a public, tech-supported museum that should be open to the people.
Now, even though we weren't able to get any new video footage of these artifacts, I think the reason it's pretty clear why they wouldn't let the television cameras in is because they suspected that This was going to be used in a way that went against their pet theory, so that was the end of that.
So we had to use some of the photographs that were taken in the 19th century of these objects.
When this television program aired, it was really amazing.
The scientific community, the orthodox scientific community, was absolutely outraged because they'd never seen anything like this on NBC before.
And they became even more upset when they learned that NBC was going to show it again.
Michael, who took the photographs in the 1900s?
Do you know?
Yeah, they appeared in the book that was published by Dr. J.D.
Whitney, who was the state geologist in California.
They're in that book that was published in 1880.
I've got you, so we've got them.
In other words, we know they exist.
Oh yeah, the objects definitely are there, and he said he placed them with the University of California at Berkeley back in the last century when it first opened up.
So, in any case, when these scientists learned that this program was going to be aired again, they went to the General Lecture Company, and there was a big letter-writing campaign on the internet and all the scientific discussion groups where Scientists were being asked to write to the President of General Electric, which owns NBC, asking him to tell NBC not to show this program.
Now, NBC turned around and instead made publicity saying, watch the program the scientists don't want you to see, which made these people even more angry.
So then they went to the FCC.
They went to the FCC?
Oh yeah, so the proposal was, there was a Dr. Allison Palmer who was president of the Institute for Cambrian Studies, one of the scientific research groups.
He sent a letter and he said NBC should be punished for having shown this program.
What?
And his proposal was that NBC should be forced to broadcast public primetime apologies, saying we're very sorry American people, we didn't mean it, we're quite sorry.
And he also wanted the FCC to fine NBC millions of dollars so they would never do this again.
I'm a little bit familiar with the FCC.
Under what FCC authority would That kind of material be controlled under any circumstance.
I mean, come on.
It was considered, he said, it was crass and irresponsible journalism for this television network to broadcast this kind of information to the American people.
The FCC doesn't make those kinds of determinations.
What a ludicrous thing to do.
They don't determine that.
If they determined what was crass, hell, half of what we got on there now wouldn't be on there.
Right, that's true.
But I think he thought it was particularly offensive that the television program was rebroadcast over the objections of responsible scientists.
Now, I agree with you that it's ridiculous.
Of course, the FCC didn't do anything, but I think it shows something about the mentality of these people.
Now, this wasn't just a private letter to the FCC.
This letter was widely distributed all over the Internet of all the scientific discussion groups in an attempt to build A campaign of intimidation, basically.
Now, it didn't work, I'm happy to say.
Of course, the FCC didn't go along with it.
But I think the very fact that such an attempt was made shows us something about the mentality of these people.
Because normally, I mean, the way we're told that science should work is the evidence is there.
Well, I'll tell you what's on your side, Michael.
It's easy to see.
Um, NBC, let's think about what does NBC care about.
Do they care about, uh, the complaint of a bunch of scientists?
Or do they care about ratings and money?
Yeah, obviously.
Uh, but if that could be... Now, I don't know, you know, there's something that I reflect on that I think, uh, I mean, I really don't know who really runs this country or the world.
I mean, I can't say that I know for sure.
But I would suspect that, from what I can see, there may be some divisions up there.
By the way, I say that with no malice at all.
In other words, NBC should care about ratings and money.
They're in business.
That's what they're in business for.
And so, obviously, the money and The ratings are going to talk and the scientists are going to walk.
Well, I hope that's true.
But I suspect that there are some people at NBC who do care a little bit more about the ratings and the money.
I think they certainly care about that.
But I think somebody put their little reputation on the line putting a show like that out.
Yeah, it was gutsy.
Yeah, it was.
You know, you've heard of PSYCOP, of course.
I have their award.
I am their recipient for this year's award.
You know that, the snuffed candle.
Oh, really?
You didn't know that?
No, congratulations.
I have it proudly on my wall, the snuffed candle award given to Art Bell this year.
I mean, I guess you're familiar with the fact that they had started a campaign to buy stock and media companies in order to go to board meetings to try to get them to stop showing programs like the X-Files and things like that.
Really?
Yeah.
Somebody passed along to me last year a newspaper article where that little strategy was laid out because they wanted to go to the board meetings and try to They're upset.
I mean, certain people are upset about... They want imagination shut down, huh?
Yeah, that would appear to be... It's a real cranky kind of materialism that they... Psycop is a cranky organization.
Yeah, very cranky, very old-fashioned, 19th century rationalism, skepticism type of stuff.
I have Dr. Nickel on.
He's a... He's a very interesting man.
You know Dr. Nickel?
No.
I don't know everybody.
Joe Nickel?
Okay, well, he's one of the spokespeople for PSYCOP.
Okay.
And so I brought him on the air after they gave me this award, and we got about halfway through the show and, you know, we were talking about various things that PSYCOP said was a bunch of hooey.
And, you know, they were saying my show was a bunch of hooey, so I finally, I got Professor Nickel on the air in about, I don't know, third or fourth break.
I said, oh, by the way, Doctor, have you ever heard my program?
No.
I said, excuse me?
You're here justifying, giving me this dubious honor, and you've never heard my program?
No, he said.
And that just stopped me.
I mean, I almost couldn't do the rest of the show, but I did.
The guy had never heard the program he was here saying was full of baloney.
He should give the awards himself.
So you're right.
I mean, they're kind of an unusual organization.
Preserving old paradigms, even if they're not true, at any expense.
Yeah, well, you know, earlier this year I spent some time in Poland and Hungary, which are of course, you know, former communist countries, of course.
And I sort of compared there, when speaking to audiences there, I sort of compared this orthodox the scientific orthodoxy that's now in charge to
to be sort of like the communist party in its last days because the people are really going in a different
direction as far as i can see
every you know gallup poll i see sixty percent of the american people believe in the ufo's
they believe the paranormal they believe in all this stuff
Some of it's as high as 70%.
Yeah, maybe those are the latest figures.
So the people are going in an entirely different direction.
Even within these scientific orthodoxies, there are defectors.
There are scientists who are stepping out, forming their own research organizations to look into things that they're not allowed to look into.
It is, however, in academia a very slow process because so many of them have been crushed like ants that a chill went down the spine of anybody who would dare step forward and challenge a traditional belief.
Well, I think that happens.
I think when things are in their Well, maybe.
press stages these orthodoxies become even more dependent, it's like the
communist party right up to the end they still had their
their hands on the levers of power, you know the military, the police, the press
i think these scientists are like that maybe i'm a little more optimistic than you are at that
point but i kind of think they're
they're nearing the end of their rope really well but maybe, maybe they're not, remember now
desperate people do desperate things and in the last stages we're approaching
desperation on their part Oh, yeah.
That's right.
That's where they become a little dangerous.
Yeah, absolutely.
So, what do you think would change?
Let's imagine a world where Michael Cremo has proven everything.
Somehow, ratings and money have tempted Well, here's what I think would happen.
dist distributing this information again and again until finally
most of the american people believe it uh... what would change if we suddenly believed that we
have been here fifty million years ago
or longer or even billions of years what would change in our current society
well here's what i think would happen first of all
there'd be a demand for a new explanation of human origin.
See, that's what's really, I think, behind the incredible resistance that's coming out from the scientific community.
Because they know what it will lead to is an explanation of a different sort.
I think an explanation that's going to have to involve some kind of intelligent design and control in the universe.
Because the evidence for a human presence goes so far back on this planet that I don't think it can be explained by any You know, evolutionary process.
I think you have to start going back to the design hypothesis.
Okay, that's where I was going next.
In other words, what do you imagine, Michael, the most logical explanation might be?
Well, the way I look at it, If we're going to talk about human origins, we've got to understand what a human being is.
If we think a human being is just composed of ordinary matter, that sort of limits the explanations you can give for origins.
But I think there's quite a bit of evidence that we're composed of more than that.
I would say we're composed of three things, matter, mind, and spirit.
I don't think we need much proof that there's some matter involved here.
No, no, no.
Pretty much sacks of water, actually.
Yeah, now, mind is something else.
Now, here you get into another whole hidden area of science that I would call the hidden history of physics.
Most people don't know this, but say, for example, Marie Curie and her husband, Pierre Curie, got the Nobel Prize for discovering radium.
Every physics student knows that.
What you won't Here is that they were heavily involved in what's called psychical research.
You won't read about that in your physics textbooks.
What is that?
Well, for example, they were investigating a medium, an Italian medium named Eusebio Palladino.
They conducted several months of experiments with her, not just the Curies, but several prominent European scientists in Paris were engaged in these experiments.
And Pierre Curie, a Nobel Prize winning physicist, said that Under carefully controlled conditions where you had Marie holding this woman's hands and other French scientists holding her feet and every other part of her body to make sure she wasn't moving.
Pierre Curie says he saw a table floating four feet in the air in the middle of the room in broad daylight with nothing touching it.
Now, for a Nobel Prize winning physicist to testify to that and write letters to his physicist friends about it and say it's absolutely true... Yeah, we don't hear about that in school, do we?
But I think it tends to point to the existence of a mind element.
And then when you get into the medical literature on how the body experiences and stuff like that, I think you get a picture that there's a conscious self that can exist apart from the mind and the body made of ordinary matter.
I wouldn't disagree with that.
If you admit all that, if you're going to explain where human beings or any other life form came from, you've got to explain where all that came from, how it all came together.
It inevitably leads to some kind of discussion of design, control, God, things of that nature, which the current scientific establishment just wants to keep totally, completely out of the picture.
I think there's a reason for that.
There's different kinds of power in this world.
There's military power, economic power, political power, there's intellectual power.
And that intellectual power carries with it the power to set the direction for an entire civilization.
Because what we do... So really, intellectually, there is a war that goes on between the intellectuals and the entire concept of God, right?
Yes, it's been going on for quite a... well, for about the past three centuries.
Yeah, that's what I thought.
Alright, listen, we're at a place where we have to break, so hold on, Michael.
We'll be right back.
That war is still waging as we speak.
You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight's an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from May 12th, 1999.
This is a presentation of the Coast to Coast AM concert.
The concert is being recorded live on the Coast to Coast AM website.
Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
Tonight's program originally aired May 12th, 1999.
Michael Cremo is here, and he's saying that we've been here... Well, what do you say?
Fifty million years?
How about that?
Or two billion?
Could you swallow that?
Probably not.
Is there a war between academia and the clergy?
And the whole concept of God?
Of course there is.
There has to be.
I wonder if this is a war that will be settled in our lifetimes.
We'll get back to Michael in a moment.
you're listening to Coast to Coast AM, the one and only.
Now we take you back to the night of May 12th, 1999, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Now we take you back to the night of May 12th, 1999, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
you you
Good morning, everybody.
Michael Cremo is here.
Uh, Michael, we'll get back to this larger concept of the war in a second.
I've got a pass from somebody who tells me that the March issue of the Mutual UFO Network UFO Journal had an article about a skeleton that had been discovered near Ladonia, Texas.
Do you know anything about that?
Not right offhand, no.
Okay, well then, it goes on to say the skeleton, which was not fossilized, is the remains of a humanoid-type creature that was 39 and 5 eighths inches tall, had three fingers, and a thumb with only a single-fingered joint.
Humans have two, and its skull has large sclerotic eye rings.
In fact, he includes a photograph of this in the fax.
It's really, really weird-looking.
And nobody can explain it, so that might be something that might be down your alley, who knows?
Well, I'm going to Texas next week, Dallas, to speak at the Eclectic Society there, so maybe somebody will have some information they can give to me at that time.
And I'm aware of certain skulls that are circulating that are said to be very, very old right now, or possibly not even human.
In your look back at what Human beings originate from.
Do you find much evidence, or any evidence, of what would apparently be non-humans?
Non-humans in the sense of ape men, or apes and monkeys, or extraterrestrials?
Well, for example, I just read you this skeleton they've discovered.
Well, it's interesting.
Now, according to the ancient Sanskrit writings of India, which I studied quite extensively, there are 400,000 different human species scattered throughout the universe.
So, I might expect that you could find a lot of strange humanoid creatures.
Not necessarily that we're descended from them, but they're just other kinds of bodies.
There's a whole literature, of course, on strange giant skeletons being found on this planet, some with two rows of teeth, and some of them of quite large size.
And these are getting buried, aren't they, along with other archaeological things that don't fit?
Right, well what often happens is this, if something radically contradicts the accepted ideas, It tends not to get preserved in the standard ways that evidence are preserved in the scientific world, or if it is preserved, you don't know where it is and you can't get access to it.
That's often what happens to these strange objects.
You find the reports.
Now, in some cases, I mean, these things have been reported, you know, the giant skeletons of humanoid creatures have been reported.
I don't know, for hundreds of years.
I mean, you've got reports of them going back in Europe to the 16th and 17th centuries.
In some cases, they have turned out to be skeletons of other animals, such as mammoths, or giant tapirs, or giant bears, things of that sort.
It's like a lot of UFO reports turn out to be aircraft, you know.
Right, but that doesn't mean there's no UFOs, and it doesn't mean there's no giants.
Because some of the descriptions, I mean, they're obviously not animals.
They talk of tombs being opened, and they have names inscribed on them, and the skeletons have all kinds of artifacts and decorations with them.
But when you try to find these things today, if you actually try to see, if you can get a hold of the bones, it's often very, very difficult.
So that's one problem.
Well, I can tell you, Michael, from personal experience, if you deal in things that upset people's cherished little belief systems, you are attacked without mercy.
And I mean you are attacked without mercy.
Well, you know, I was in Hungary a couple of years ago, and there was a Hungarian edition of the Hidden History of the Human Race published in that country, and I spoke at some of the universities there.
And I was getting packed auditoriums.
Hundreds of students were coming.
They were sitting in the aisleways, standing in the doorways.
They were buying dozens of copies of this book.
Now, I went back again to Hungary this year and a professor at one of these universities said that after I had spoken there, The fundamentalist Darwinist scientists at the university started going through the entire school looking for the person who had authorized the lecture, who had let it happen, and they suspected this one particular professor, and they tried to get him removed from his department.
Unsuccessfully, I'm happy to say.
But then he said that there had been a gathering in Budapest, of some of the leading scientists in the country who had more or less decided among themselves that I wasn't going to be allowed to speak at any more of the universities in that country.
Now, again, I see a pattern like this.
Sometimes these attempts are made but they're not successful because I went back again this year to Hungary and I spoke at the universities again.
Now, the one thing you're right about though is What you're saying is not true of the people, and a good parallel is my program.
The people are here in massive, unbelievable, unaccountable numbers.
You know, it amazes people how many people listen to this show, but from the science side, we get ridicule and worse, you know, personal attacks and whatever they think will work.
I mean, they're just absolutely mortified that we would broadcast this kind of information.
Believe me, Michael.
But the people?
Oh, they're here.
Yeah.
And I think even some of these orthodox scientists... I'll give you an example.
When I was in Hungary a couple of years ago, I was lecturing on my forbidden archaeology subject, but I was also talking sometimes about this hidden history of physics that we were going over a little bit earlier.
I was invited to give a talk at the Department of Nuclear Physics at the Maine Science University in Budapest.
I went there and I laid out for them this whole hidden history of physics, about the Curies doing paranormal, psychical research, other Nobel Prize winning physicists doing it.
I went through the whole history with them.
I was wondering, well, what are they going to say?
The audience was all physics professors and graduate students of physics.
Afterwards, the head of the physics department of a big university came up to me and he said, actually, I'm very glad that you gave this talk because, he says, by day I'm a plasma physicist, privately I'm conducting experiments in telepathy.
I put my little son in another room.
I'm in another room, and I flip a coin.
If it's heads, I project the image heads to him.
If it's tails, I project the image tails.
He says, my son is getting 70 to 80% correct, far above what you'd expect by chance.
So he asked me, well, he said, I wouldn't tell this to any of my colleagues because they think I'm completely, totally crazy.
That's right.
But he asked me to put him in touch secretly with some psychical researchers in the United States, which I agreed to do.
I took that as another sign that some of these people, by day, they look ordinary.
They may walk the walk of ordinary scientists.
They have to, Michael.
Yeah, they do have to.
Because I'm not part of that establishment, I can say what I want.
I go to these scientific conferences and I say the most outrageous things.
For example, when I went to the World Archaeological Congress just this January, I gave a talk focusing on just the past two million years.
I didn't get into the 50 million year old stuff or the 2 billion year old stuff.
I just said, OK, I'll just focus on... For you, modern history.
Yeah, for you, modern history.
For them.
Now, the older ones were kind of sitting on their hands, but the next day a young woman came up to me and said, I was at your talk and I agreed with Everything you said.
Keyword, young woman.
Well, here again, though, she turned out to be one of the younger archaeologists from one of the universities in South Africa.
That's genuine.
Now she's got a copy of this book.
She's reading it.
We're corresponding about it.
I find this all around the world, that some of the younger The younger people who are entering the scientific community, they've been exposed, well, to your show, to a lot of other things, and I think they have a different mentality than their elders.
Well, they might be more inclined to privately think other things.
I think you're right about that.
I'm going to give you the negative side is, once they get into the system, and they learn that there's only one way to survive within it, 99.9% are going to change.
Well, I don't know if they'll change, but they just might do what they think they have to do to survive.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that was also the situation with the Communist Party, too.
A lot of people went into it, because that's just the only way you could get ahead.
Correct.
But at a certain point, I think it's got to break.
You've got to live life one day at a time.
You've got to have a paycheck.
You've got to, you know, all the normal things of life.
Yeah.
And if you stick your neck out, they'll cut all that off.
Yeah, but I think there's a critical mass when you have enough people that are just faking it like that at a certain point.
At a certain point, I think it has to break.
But, you know, that's a personal opinion.
What other evidence is there to throw in their face?
And here on the show, of course, you can do that.
Well, one piece of evidence that I find pretty interesting is the footprints that were found by Mary Leakey at a place called Laetoli in the country of Tanzania in East Africa.
Yes.
Very prominent physical anthropologists who have looked at these footprints say they are anatomically modern.
They're no different than the footprints you or I would make if we were walking.
Just like our feet.
They found these footprints where?
And they're four million years old.
They're found in solidified volcanic ash that's four million years old.
Now, the normal explanation that they have for this is, well, there must have existed four million years ago some kind of ape man that had feet just like ours.
They already have the skeletons of the eight men that existed four million years ago in Africa, and they're called Australopithecus.
Their foot structure is quite different from ours.
So this actually came up for me at the World Archaeological Congress where I was speaking, but also speaking was a scientist named Ron Clark, who had discovered last year at a place called Sterkfontein in South Africa a fairly complete skeleton of Australopithecus.
This discovery was widely advertised all over the world last fall as being the oldest missing link, the oldest human ancestor.
It was 4 million years old.
But the foot he had constructed, it was quite ape-like.
It had a big toe that was long and moved out to the side like a human thumb.
If you look at your thumb, it's long and it can move widely out to the side.
Absolutely.
So the toe of this creature was like that.
Its other toes were also quite long, sort of like human fingers.
So it's four billion years old.
So I asked him, after he gave his talk there, I put up my hand and I said, OK, why is it that the other foot of your Sterk Fontaine ape man You know, which is 4 million years old.
Why doesn't it match the footprints?
You know, the anatomically modern footprints discovered by Mary Leakey in 1979, which are totally modern and also 4 million years old.
You see what the problem is for him?
He's saying he's got the oldest missing link, but you've got evidence elsewhere in Africa that human beings like ourselves were walking around at the same time.
What did he say?
How did he answer my question?
He said, well, it was my Sterk-Fontaine ape man.
That made those footprints, but he was walking with his big toe pressed up against his other toes, and his other long toes, he was walking with them curled under, you know, to make footprints that looked human.
And you're laughing.
I'm sorry.
I was laughing too.
Really?
But none of the 700 of the world-leading archaeologists were laughing.
They were nodding their heads, saying, yeah.
Oh, really?
Which just goes to show you how this knowledge filtration process works, you know?
How can they keep straight faces out there?
And here's another thing.
I'm serious.
I mean, how could they not laugh?
Seriously, how could they not laugh?
Presented with that kind of ludicrous explanation for what is evident.
Because they so deeply believe that human beings didn't exist at that time and it only could have been an ape man, so that's the only possible explanation they can think of.
Don't bother me with the facts, just give me the best wild explanation you can come up with and I'll embrace it.
Right, and I thought it was very, well I don't think it was so strange, but as you can imagine I think I was the only person there that had enough sense to ask that very obvious question.
Now this came up, now this is really funny, a couple weeks later I was in Johannesburg and I was on a talk radio show there Talk radio, one of their talk radio programs.
I was discussing this whole exchange I had with Ron Clark.
Producers were very sharp.
They got Ron Clark on the phone and they brought him on.
He was just livid.
He said, this is baloney!
I said, Ron, you may call it baloney, but those footprints are there and they're anatomically modern.
I said, furthermore, there's a lot of other evidence that human beings were present Four million years ago and earlier, you know, so you really don't have the oldest missing link.
You've just got some ape man that was coexisting with human beings like ourselves.
So then he said, he said, well, there's no scientist has ever reported any evidence for anatomically modern humans existing, you know, four million years ago.
And so I listed, right, you know, three, three or four cases where scientists had reported such evidence.
Sure.
And then he said, well, well, scientists, Sometimes even scientists say crazy things that aren't true.
And I felt like saying, yeah, like you too.
So we had quite a shouting match there on South African radio.
It was a lot of fun.
Yeah, talk radio is new to South Africa.
It's actually been going a little longer in Johannesburg than it has Cape Town.
But it's quite active in Johannesburg.
It's kind of interesting because African people are not used to being able to speak out.
So for a long time when they began talk radio over there, nobody would call a talk station and say anything controversial because they thought somebody would come and kill them.
Right.
They're just sort of figuring out they can do it now.
Yeah.
Well, talk radio is new in a lot of countries around the world.
Yes.
I was in Europe two years ago.
I talked on the first talk radio station in Holland.
I was amazed.
First one ever.
It's amazing.
But I think it's healthy.
Well, so where do you think you are in this battle now, honestly?
Are you actually gaining ground?
Can you affirmatively state that?
Still batting your head up against the wall?
Well, there's a few positive signs.
Of course, I'm not going to exaggerate my successes.
There is an orthodoxy out there.
It still is pretty firmly in control.
You bet.
But what I would say is the people are moving in a different direction.
Some of the younger scientists are moving in a different direction, and even some of the older ones.
There are a few of them that are prepared to admit, well, possibly they could be wrong.
May I say one more thing?
Yeah.
Let's see if you agree with this.
This is an important aspect.
I'm sure I'm going to be viewed as a heretic for suggesting it, or that it's sacrilegious, but I believe in a creator.
And for me, personally, there is not a conflict With believing that human beings have been around for millions, or if you wish, billions of years, and that there was still a creator involved in the process.
Well, that's my idea, exactly.
It's something I'm going to be talking about in a book that I'm writing now.
Well, you're really going to get into trouble with that one, because you're attacking the main reason, of course, why all of this is suppressed, and people like you have to write books about this kind of thing.
But why couldn't there be a Creator involved?
And why couldn't it be not literally and specifically as outlined in the Bible, but the Bible generally true to accommodate this truth and still believe in a Creator?
Well, it's very interesting, you know.
Recently, I can't name this person, but recently I've been corresponding with a Catholic philosopher whose He's at a university in the United States, a Catholic institution, and he's writing a book about Christian theology and the origin of the human species.
Somehow or other, he got a copy of Forbidden Archaeology, and it just blew his mind, really.
It changed his whole conception of things.
He's working on making a proposal more or less along the lines that you just suggested.
Now, I think that's really fantastic.
I think it's really fantastic.
Well, so do I. I wish him well with it.
But he'll be lucky not to be dancing on the end of a rope.
That's a possibility.
Yeah, I know.
All right, Michael.
When we come back, I'm going to open the lines and we'll let him out and see what happens with the people.
Okay?
Okay.
All right.
Michael Cremo is my guest.
Forbidden Archaeology is his stock and trade.
Underline the forbidden part.
For real.
Forbidden.
I'm Art Bell.
This is Coast to Coast AF.
You take the long way home.
You never see what you wanna see.
Or ever claim to the gallery.
You take the long way home.
It's a long way to go.
When you're up one day, you don't want to leave at all.
Oh, I'm so scared I don't.
I may have told you.
Then your wife seems to think you're losing your sanity.
Oh, insanity.
I may adore you But then you want to think you're losing your sanity
Oh, your sanity Oh, is there no way out?
Oh, yes Oh, yes
You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight's an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM, from May 12th, 1999.
My guest is Michael Cremo, and he's talking about all of us.
Where we came from, when we came, all of the great mysteries that... I don't know.
They don't seem to have any definitive answer.
Lots of hints.
We could be very old.
We could be very young.
Or we could be, I suppose, very simply, Darwin.
intriguing stuff and we'll get right back to it.
Looking for the truth? You've come to the wrong place.
You'll find it on Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
In Indonesia, rice farmers got quite a surprise when they discovered that overnight, a large crop circle had mysteriously formed in one of their fields.
There has to be a reason, though, for the geometric patterns here.
But I don't think the point is to decipher them.
I think the point is to realize that there's other intelligence in the universe.
They're visiting us.
We're not visiting them.
So until they tell us who they are, it's a mystery.
Streamlink.
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You never know what you'll hear on Coast to Coast AM with George Norris.
You know, there is terrorism out there.
So, in an effort to try to fight it or combat it, we give up these rights.
I'm convinced that there are groups out there, sinister, powerful groups, That would create this terror to continue to control us.
I think you're absolutely correct.
But of course, anybody that's followed the process of government throughout history, once a government has been given a certain amount of power, it always seeks more.
And to suggest that our government is different because it's America, I guess that just shows how historically ignorant the American people have become.
Because in a real sense, these things are our fault.
Americans are, in fact, now trading liberty for security.
Every day, this is going to happen now in our future, that we're going to allow this.
It's just a matter of time.
Now we take you back to the night of May 12th, 1999, on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
Now that we've taken care of all of that, let me go right back to my guest.
Michael, are you there?
Yes, I am.
All right.
I want to bring something up just before serving you back up to the public again.
Okay.
I have had the high honor and privilege and sometimes fearsome duty of sitting between scholars like Robert Hancock, Graham Hancock and Robert Buval and Zahi Hawass who is the Director of Antiquities in Egypt.
Right.
And I have moderated what I will laughingly call discussions that turned into sessions where people nearly throttled each other.
Actually, they were much better in person than they were apart, but the discussions, the arguments have been about The Pyramid and the Sphinx in Egypt.
And we're talking about a difference between, say, 2,000 years and 10 or 11,000 years.
And these people were ripping each other to shreds, my friend.
So, what's your take on the age of the artifacts in Egypt?
And what do you think about their argument?
I mean, they're only arguing about a few thousand years.
Well, that's dealing with the history of civilization, which is you're dealing with a different time frame there.
Say, as far as the anatomically modern human species, scientists will give it 100 or 200,000 years.
Now, for civilization, the standard idea is you don't have any kind of organized urban life or even organized village life.
You know, on a high level, until about 10,000 years ago, maximum, in the Middle East.
And they put the higher civilizations, like Egypt, the Egyptian civilization, going back only about 6,000 or 7,000 years to 3,000 or 4,000 BC, something like that.
to 3000 or 4000 BC, something like that.
So there you're dealing with different timescale.
I'm dealing with things that are over 100 to 200,000 years.
I realize that, but what I guess I was drawing attention to was, I mean, here are these academics fighting like cats and dogs about a few thousand years, only a few thousand years ago, and you are proposing vastly greater amounts of time for what you think may be true.
Right.
So it's going to be, in terms of how hard a fight is it Well, you know, Graham Hancock and I have met, and he appreciates my work and I appreciate his.
He actually wrote the foreword to the new paperback edition of The Hidden History of the Human Race.
I can see what you would have in common, yes.
Yes, so I think we're working at different points of the time scale.
He's challenging the accepted ideas of the origin of civilization in Egypt.
I think that the intensity of the conflict doesn't necessarily have to do with how many years you're going back, but how much the orthodox scientists have invested in holding to a particular date.
Yeah, but if they've got a lot invested in the Egyptian date that they cling to, imagine how much is invested in the bigger picture that you're challenging.
Yes, I think you're right there.
I think you're absolutely right about that.
It's interesting, if you look at the Egyptian writings themselves, what their historians have to say, their pharaoh lists go back 48,000 years or more.
You go to the Babylonian king list, and their lists of kings go back 432,000 years.
You go to India, they have histories there that go back millions of years.
China, the same thing.
The emperor list in China go back tens of thousands of years.
So what happened basically is in the 18th and 19th centuries when the Europeans kind of spread their influence all over the world, they rewrote the histories for these people, basically.
I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that at that time, Most of the European scientists, I mean, this would be before Darwinism, most of them accepted this young age for the Earth that you were talking about.
So when they went to these other countries, you know, and saw these accounts of histories going back tens and tens of thousands of years, perhaps millions of years, when they tried to fit it all... We can't have that!
...within 10,000 years.
Now, the reason that they did that had a lot to do with just their The particular religious ideas they were operating under at that time.
And then later on when Darwinism more or less knocked those religious foundations out, the historians still kept that very limited time frame for the histories of all these various countries.
You go to the Mayans, they have these calendars going back hundreds of thousands of years.
Millions of years.
You find it all over the world.
It's a similar pattern.
I think what we're in the process of doing is we're gradually waking up to what the real histories of these countries are.
One thing is, when the Europeans established their dominance over these countries, they took over the educational systems.
And even the native peoples who live in these countries, they've more or less given up on their own histories because they've been trained in the institutions that the Europeans set up, basically.
That's an amazing thing to consider.
Yeah, it is.
And now if anybody challenges this, they're labeled a fundamentalist or this or that or the other, but it's a very Powerful kind of intellectual domination.
Many of these countries, they think anyways that they've become freed from the political or the economic or military domination of European countries.
But as far as the intellectual domination that was established over them, I think they've yet to come to terms with that.
We just laid pretty heavily into the Europeans, but I frankly don't think that those who crossed to the new land have done much better.
Oh, the Americans.
Well, here's something.
A lot of the Native American scholars, like Vine Deloria, for example, I think he's a Sioux Indian, but he's a professor of history at the University of California, Boulder, Colorado.
He quoted extensively from my book, Forbidden Archaeology, a book that he wrote a few years ago called Red Lands, White Lies, published by Scribner's, a major publisher.
Red Lands, White Lies.
That's good.
Red Lands.
Yes, Lands, I've got it.
Yeah, right.
White Lies.
Because they don't accept the history that's been written for them by the archaeologists at the universities who say, well, you came over from Siberia 20,000 years ago.
They don't accept that.
And there's plenty of evidence to support what they say, which is why Vine Deloria quoted extensively from the evidence that's presented in Forbidden Archaeology in his book.
We may have a few more rebels, but not that many.
We're carrying on the European tradition in a fine way over here.
First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
Hi.
Hi.
Hello.
Where are you?
This is Pat in Omaha.
Yes, sir?
Yeah, I'd like two things.
I'd like to point out that there's a major mystery in the Bible that supports the evidence your guest has compiled.
In the first chapter of Genesis, on the sixth day, God created man in his image.
Male and female created he them.
Right.
But as far as Adam and Eve, they were created in the second chapter at some point after the first week of creation.
Approximately, the genealogy supports that was about 6,000 years ago.
And that's a mystery.
I think a lot of Christians try to incorporate the two.
So in the Bible you're saying there was man created before old Adam and Eve came along.
And, of course, one day in God's world could be billions, billions of years.
Well, correct.
The first week of creation, a lot of Christians want to believe, was 6,000 years ago.
Right.
But the evidence, it only takes five minutes to read the first two chapters.
You're absolutely right, Caller.
Michael, have you considered that?
Well, yes.
There's a whole pre-Adamite school of christianity which talks about generations of
humans before adam and then some theological works i've been reading recently
do they have civil discourses about that
uh...
i think it's a bit controversial in those
in those circles and then there's another point that i've
that i've read and this again comes from a christian theologian whose work
I've been reading over recently.
He's been showing me some chapters of a book he's writing.
He points out that the 6,000 year date is compiled by looking at different generations.
So and so begot so and so.
He points out that in some places in the Bible it says, so-and-so begot so-and-so, but in other places it shows that there are many generations between so-and-so and so-and-so.
So there may not be a... So somewhere along the line there was some forgotten... You could have some extra generations.
There was some forgotten of the begotten.
Yes.
So that's another... I mean, just from a purely scriptural standpoint.
These aren't things I've invented myself.
You know, among Christians about these things.
It's not that I'm trying to tear down some Christian orthodoxy.
I'm just reporting.
Boy, not in any church I've ever been to, or church gathering, I've never heard such a word uttered.
Which word?
Well, begetting that was forgotten that goes back so far as you're talking about.
I've never heard that.
There are some.
Alright, there are some.
Maybe we'll hear from one.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
Hello, where are you?
Hi, this is Bill.
I'm in Fort Smith, Arkansas.
Listening to you on KWHN 1320.
That's the one.
Hey, Michael, I am fascinated by your research.
I first came across your work in a strange magazine.
I'm an artist and I provide illustrations for Strange.
I've since gotten into illustrating for cryptozoologist Lauren Coleman and Carl Shuker.
Are you familiar with either of their work?
Not directly, no.
I've never seen Strange Magazine either.
Oh, well they offer both your books.
Oh, fantastic.
My question is concerning that.
First of all, I am a Christian and I am a younger creationist.
The fellow just before is what I would term a progressive creationist and that follows along the lines of, oh there's a teacher out there named Hugh Ross that teaches in Old Earth.
I, on the other hand, I illustrate for Kent Hovind.
Have you ever heard of Kent?
I've heard of both of them.
Yes, I think I was on a television show once with him.
Is he out of Florida?
Yes, he is.
Pensacola.
Yeah, I was on a television show with him.
I was on a Christian Creationist television show with him.
Oh, I bet they loved you.
Oh, actually, this host for this particular show, he said, It was very interesting.
We got along quite well.
He said, this evening, folks, we've got Michael Cremo on.
He's not approaching this from the Christian perspective, but he's providing some evidence against Darwinism, so let's hear him out.
Kent Hopeland was also on the show, so we had a good time.
Well, I can see how up to a certain point you would be glad-handing each other because you'd be serving each other's purpose, but by the time you get past 6,000 years or whatever figure... Then there might be some problems.
Then some problems?
Some problems!
You've done an excellent job tonight interviewing Michael.
My question, before I forget to ask it, is do you have Now, I'm yet to get your book.
I'm going to go out and order it tomorrow.
I'm behind on some of my books.
But, do you have any evidence for the coexistence of man and dinosaurs?
Ah, yes.
Well, if you look in the book, you'll find that there's evidence for, well, for example,
we've got a report from a scientific journal called The Geologist, published in 1862, which
tells of an anatomically modern human skeleton found in layers of rock 300 million years
old, which would be before the time of the dinosaurs.
And then there are numerous discoveries of human artifacts and bones during the time
of the dinosaurs.
Now, there is one famous case from the Paluxy River region of Texas, near Glen Rose, Texas,
we have reportedly some human footprints in the exact same layers as dinosaur footprints.
Now, I didn't put those in forbidden archaeology for the following reason.
I think they were originally reported by a Christian creationist scientist, Henry Morris.
Later on, he withdrew his claims in a letter to Nature, a major scientific publication.
He said, on closer examination, he felt he had been mistaken and he felt that those human footprints were really dinosaur footprints that had been eroded to look like human footprints.
Who are very much in favor of those being human footprints.
And I've got an open mind about it, because I have no theoretical objection to human beings.
Michael, I've got to stop you, because we're at the bottom of the hour.
The one thing that would convince me is if the supposed human footprints were running.
Now, if you have dinosaur footprints and human footprints together, and the human had been running, I might be a believer.
Let's break here.
You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight's an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM, from May 12th, 1999.
Come on and dance.
Oh, I'm gonna let the music play.
What the people need is a way to make them smile.
It ain't so easy to deal with you now Gotta get a message, get it on through
Lord, now my heart's gone just half a mile Whoa, whoa, we'll never be the same
Whoa, whoa, we'll never be the same Whoa, whoa, we'll never be the same
Oh, no Oh, no
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Don't know when I've been so blue Don't know what come over you You found someone new And don't it make my brown eyes blue I'll be fine when you're gone I'll just cry all night long Say it is over And don't it make my brown eyes
Tell me no secrets, tell me some lies Give me no reason, give me advice Tell me you love me and don't let me cry Say anything, but don't say goodbye You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from May 12th, 1999.
Peter Gersten.
Reality infected with a virus.
Or how about this?
Do not adjust your mind.
Reality is malfunctioning.
Robert Anton Wilson.
Isn't this fun to talk about?
Where'd we come from?
Did somebody intervene?
What got us here?
Is there a big guy?
You know, all the big questions.
Michael Cremo is here.
He'll be right back.
Coast Insider.
You'll still get all the same great features for the same low price.
The package includes podcasting, which automatically downloads shows for you, and the iPhone app.
You'll also get our amazing download library of three full years of shows.
That's over a thousand shows for you to collect and enjoy.
If you're a fan of Coast, you won't want to be without Coast Insider.
Visit coasttocoastam.com to sign up.
Looking for the truth?
You'll find it on Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
In Indonesia, rice farmers got quite a surprise when they discovered that overnight, a large crop circle had mysteriously formed in one of their fields.
There has to be a reason, though, for the geometric patterns here.
But I don't think the point is to decipher them.
I think the point is to realize that there's other intelligence in the universe.
They're visiting us.
We're not visiting them.
So until they tell us who they are, it's a mystery.
Now we take you back to the night of May 12th, 1999, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Once again, my guest, Michael Cremo.
Michael, welcome back.
You're going to make it.
I can see you're going to make it the whole way.
Oh, is it coming to the end now?
We're in the last, like, 20 minutes or something.
Oh, okay.
Time flies when you're challenged intellectually, doesn't it?
Yeah.
Stimulating.
First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
Hello.
Is this me?
Only you know that for certain, but it sounds like you.
Okay.
Yeah, I wonder if he's ever heard of the theory.
Well, first of all, does he know what happened to Nebuchadnezzar in the Bible, what God did to Nebuchadnezzar in the Bible?
God cursed him and gave him a mind of an animal and made hair roll over his body.
Are you familiar with that?
No.
Is that what happened to him?
Sounds like Bigfoot.
Well, yeah.
He cursed him.
And I've heard a couple of preachers say that millions of years ago that these Cro-Magnons, the sons of God, were cursed to the point of being that way.
Yeah, they were cursed like Nebuchadnezzar for some disobedience that they had done.
Have you ever heard that?
Not exactly in that way, no.
It's very interesting.
Do you know some of the names of the preachers who preached like that?
No, I don't.
This is like maybe ten years ago.
But his theory was that when Lucifer made his fall, He not only did he take one third of the angels, but he also took a portion of the human beings around the Earth at that time.
And they also followed him.
And by following him, they got cursed to the point of being, you know, ignorant cavemen.
And some of them got cursed, some of them did not follow him, and they got taken off this Earth and put in another galaxy.
and those were the genetically superior sons of God spoken about in Genesis 6.
Well, to me it's a very interesting set of ideas and just in principle it would go along with
beliefs that I personally have.
I mean, just to be clear, I'm not a lawyer.
Just in the fact that you've got a God and then you've got creation of different kinds of human-like beings existing on this planet and different parts of the universe.
Yeah, those are all ideas that I find.
There's sort of a common thread running through a lot of the great wisdom traditions that would say similar things.
Now, trying to demonstrate that scientifically is another question.
But just in principle, I don't have any objection to anything you just said.
This is the first time you've heard that theory?
Put in those terms, yeah.
How does it ring with you?
I mean it makes more sense to me that millions of years ago there were beings that were cursed.
They started out as sons of God and they were cursed to the point of being ignorant cavemen which would hold true to the theory that there were intelligent beings millions of years ago and there were also Cro-Magnon That's what the evidence actually suggests to me.
I don't deny the existence of eight men.
I think the eight men were there, but the physical evidence tends to suggest that human beings like ourselves were coexisting with them.
So that would go along with the picture that you just painted.
what about the sons of God in Genesis 6?
Which year, which you're taking that?
Do you believe that they were genetically superior, Herculean type men from other galaxies?
Um...
Well, you know, I was reading a little bit recently about the whole question of giants and apparently there's some evidence that some of the early creations there, by God, the sons of Seth and the Nephilim were I don't have any objection to that.
I think there's reports, as we were mentioning earlier in the show, of humanoid skeletons of large size being found at different times and different places.
It's difficult to get your hands on those bones now, but the reports are there.
The basic elements of what you say are reasonable.
Proving it all to some skeptic is another question.
For various reasons, I'm inclined to accept the basic ideas that you've laid out there.
It's more logical than what we've been taught.
In the school systems, yes.
I don't object to somebody being a Darwinist.
I don't object to somebody pursuing that line of research.
What I do object to is them having a government-imposed monopoly on the educational system.
And literally imposing that, or even another stronger term might be brainwashing.
Yeah, I mean that's what I object to.
I have no objection if somebody wants to be a Darwinist, but I don't think they should insist on having... I mean, just like we have separation of church and state, we might have separation of science and state as well.
So you don't have one particular group... Well, we supposedly have separation of church and state, but we really don't.
Well, I was just saying that.
And we don't have separation of science and state either.
In fact, they're about equally connected, frankly.
And they support each other in mainstream.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Michael and Art.
Hello.
Hi, Michael.
Hi, Art.
This is Lynn from Homer, Alaska.
Yes.
Yeah, it was interesting.
You just mentioned the Neff ones.
I mean the Sumerian records they talk about them and mining gold in the southern tip of
Africa and actually finding human remains that date back to 20,000 or so years ago.
And so if they were mining gold way back then and we don't really find, you know it's a
soft metal and they're running artifacts down that old in gold.
So what were they doing mining gold there?
There aren't any artifacts that old?
Is that what you said?
Well, it isn't found very often, ancient artifacts.
Well, I think there are some examples.
For example, there's a case.
This is a report in a newspaper article from the Morrisonville Times in 1892.
It tells of a woman who broke open a piece of coal as she was putting it into a coal
burning stove and inside she found a gold chain ten inches long.
That coal came from a particular mine in Illinois and we got in touch with the state geological
survey of Illinois.
They said the coal in that mine is about 300 million years old.
And there are other reports of gold objects being found.
So, I think there are some reports, but go ahead with your point.
Well, I guess, you know, from some of the research and reading that I've read, that In the Nephilim, we're a large race of people, large giants.
You know, giant people.
That's generally what I hear.
And supposedly, the whole reason why we are the human race was manufactured, maybe DNA spliced, to mine those gold mines.
Alright, we're talking Sitchin now, of course.
You know, it is interesting that you would have mentioned gold, because I know that you know exactly what Sitchin says, and why don't you go ahead and comment on how Sitchin figures in, or doesn't figure in, to what you believe might be true, Michael?
Well, as far as I can understand, his basic position appears to be this, that life evolved on Earth pretty much as Orthodox science says, up to the point of the eight-man homo erectus.
And then intervention.
And then there was some intervention.
This would have taken place three or four hundred thousand years ago, I guess, according to his timeline.
Right.
And then that would have been the first time that you would have had anatomically modern humans around.
Right.
Now, just from a couple of standpoints, and of course he's operating mainly on the basis of the Sumerian text.
Correct.
Now, there are two reasons why I would differ with him on the details there.
The first is, I'm operating more on the Vedic texts, the Sanskrit texts from India.
Those histories talk about a human presence going back much further than 400,000 years.
They talk about a human presence going back hundreds of millions of years.
So just from that standpoint, well, I'd probably be inclined to differ with his account.
But also, when I did this eight years of research into the history of archaeology, I did turn up these hundreds of cases of scientific literature, which are not very well known.
They're certainly not in the current textbooks.
Illusive reports very difficult to get there in many different languages Italian French Spanish and out-of-print journals out of print books But when I got all that material together, I saw that over the past 150 years, you know archaeologists have reported huge amounts of evidence showing that human beings like ourselves have been present for hundreds of millions of years, so so for those two reasons, I guess I'm I wouldn't be inclined to accept the details of his proposal, although I do accept, like him, that human beings have been around in a civilized form for longer than scientists now say.
I do also accept the fact that there have been extraterrestrial interventions in the process of the origin of life on this planet, and I do accept the fact that there are I think as he would also admit that there are higher dimensions to the universe that you do have.
There is something more than just the ordinary matter that we can see.
So, on some principles, I think we would have some things in common, but on some of the details and some of the major points, we'd have differences.
But you are willing to consider some of his proposition, at least with regard to the intervention?
Yeah, but I think there have been multiple interventions, and I think you have to look longer back along the timeline to really come up with a more complete picture.
Okay.
East of the Rockies, without a lot of time, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
Hello.
Hi, I wanted to go back to the river in Texas and the human footprints with the dinosaur
footprints.
Oh yes.
Have you visited that site?
I haven't but I want to.
I don't know if I got to finish the point I was trying to make there.
I was a little bit cautious about them because the original scientists who reported them withdrew his claims.
Right.
But I know that other researchers like Carl Baugh and others are still maintaining they are genuine human footprints.
And I have no theoretical reason to oppose the existence of human beings there.
But I just wanted to see more evidence.
I haven't visited the site myself.
I'm aware that there are many who do continue to accept them as genuine footprints and I'm ready to be convinced about it if they really are.
When I was in high school I attended a parochial high school and my science teacher was a Christian scientist and he showed to our class that film that showed the site and the interview and the footprints and so on.
Right, I've seen that film.
I can't see how he could go back on his word.
To me, from what I saw in the film, it looked fully the way he first explained it.
Our teacher also would organize a trip into the Grand Canyon and in the layers of the rock of the Grand Canyon, and I can't tell you because I didn't get to go on the trip, but he took a group of students every year, every summer.
I understand the point that you're making there.
and then back up the other side.
There was a layer of rock that had pollen in it from a tree that wasn't, you know, that
the rock, the layer had been dated, you know, I don't remember, but it was much earlier.
Yeah, I understand the point that you're making there.
In other words, there's a similar case from the Salt Range Mountains in Pakistan where
you had some scientists with the Indian Geological Survey find pollen from flowering plants and
layers of rock that date to the geological period called the Cambrian, the early part
of it, over 500 million years old.
According to the standard accounts, the flowering plants didn't come into existence until about A hundred million years ago.
So to find them back in those times is extraordinary and I have heard also that similar things have been found in the Grand Canyon.
So I think there are lots of anomalies.
Of course there are millions of species on this planet and I chose to look at the human species because I can't investigate all the millions of species myself.
But the reason I chose the human species to look into is because Scientists say it's their best case for evolution, so I thought, well, I'll look at your best case.
And their best case didn't stand up.
Now, I think what you're saying may indicate, well, the story we get about some of the other life forms may not be correct either.
And it's a point well made, but unfortunately we are out of time.
We have done the program.
Your book, your latest book, is available generally in bookstores across the U.S.?
That's right.
It's called The Hidden History of the Human Race.
It's in bookstores.
I've also got a website at mcremo.com.
M-C-R-E-M-O.
And just for some of your listeners who may be members of your chat clubs, I'm going to be in Santa Cruz, San Diego, and Orange County soon to visit at those chat clubs.
But the details are on that website if they want to Check that out.
All right.
Well, it has been another really, really, really fascinating intellectual evening.
Thank you.
No, thank you.
You're the guy who did it.
Michael, thank you so much.
OK.
Thank you, Art.
You have a good night.
That's Michael Cremo.
And you've got to admit that you just simply cannot sit down and actually pay attention to a few minutes of this without being seriously challenged in a lot of really Well, ways that are frankly good for you.
Whether or not you believe what he believes.
Anyway, that's it for this night.
Tomorrow night, we're going to do Y2K and more.
And next week, my, what a lineup I've got for you.
This is, or has been, Coast to Coast AM Night All.