Art Bell

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Feb. 7, 1999 - Art Bell

01:52:21

Dreamland with Art Bell - Budd Hopkins - Alien Abductions

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25:55

budd hopkins

01:08:27

linda moulton howe

09:49

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Linda Moltenhow is a science investigator for us.
		She has won many awards for her environmental documentaries, and she's about to be up.
		As we go to air, I have received the following.
		I'm going to read it and let Linda comment as she best can.
		I've been hearing rumors of trouble in Arizona.
		Mr. Bell, we are experiencing a situation in Ash Fork, Arizona.
		Numerous local residents have lost livestock, the death of 17 horses, and numerous wildlife in the immediate area.
		The Federal Task Force has interrogated us, and there's military presence throughout the area.
		ID not presented.
		We were told business cards were unavailable at the time.
		The symptoms are always fatal.
		We've been told this is caused by a, quote, unnatural toxin, end quote.
		Numerous residents have observed very late-night flights, helicopter flights, unmarked, unlighted aircraft flying low.
		This week, the presence of a toxic waste management disposal truck was on our rural residential street being driven by uniformed military accompanied by the same personnel in suits.
		There has been very slight media coverage of this about two weeks ago in Phoenix.
		That probably accounts for the rumors I heard.
		He goes on, it has been observed a fine mist-like hair spray substance on the backs of many of the animals.
		The spray pattern seems to be intermittent within this rural area.
		I'll withhold the name, but I do have it and a phone number.
		Goes on to say I've lost three of my horses to whatever this is, and other residences are available for your interview, other residents, I guess, of that area.
		So with that, as sort of an unknown way to begin the program here from Philadelphia is Linda Moulton Howe, who now has a copy of that also.
		Linda, welcome.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, thanks, Art.
		This could be an important story to follow up on, and I will make a contact out there.
		And any of our Dreamland listeners living in Arizona who may have any information about this story of toxins falling on these horses and other animals and killing them in the Ashe Fork, Arizona area, please contact me at facts number 215-491-9842.
		That's facts 215-4919842.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sorry, we don't have more for you folks, but this hit us at airtime, and I just got it to Linda.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Right, and it's important to let people know that this is occurring, and I will see what I can find out.
		And as soon as I have something, or maybe we can do something on Coast next week, in addition to the fact that there are so many different environmental assaults around us now, tonight, I have some answers to recent environmental mysteries, including the strange white stuff found in water near Whiskey Town, California, and the die-off of birds in Louisiana.
		But first, there is unsettling news this week from New England about a rare virus attacking salmon there.
		When the first boats from Europe arrived at American shores, there were millions of wild salmon in rivers from Maine to Connecticut.
		But now, there are only a couple of thousand left.
		And that is why this recent outbreak of what's called swim bladder sarcomavirus, seen only twice before in salmon, is especially tragic.
		All the virus-infected fish came from Maine's Pleasant River.
		Biologists have quarantined hatcheries there and have had to kill hundreds of diseased salmon.
		Some scientists speculate that the virus has spread from commercial salmon farms along Maine's coast where every year thousands of fish escape from their crowded holding pens.
		Just as humans crowded together can spread disease more easily.
		Those commercial fish carry diseases to wild salmon that have no immunity.
		Another disease has been destroying birds on the west coast.
		One of the worst outbreaks of avian cholera in memory has killed more than 50,000 water birds in northern and central California, including the rare and beautiful Aleutian Canada geese that are already on the federal threatened species list.
		Fortunately, bird cholera is not typically transmitted to humans or other mammals.
		Scientists speculate that last month's cold weather caused birds to flock together in tight spaces of open water, which may have spread the disease just like the salmon crowded in those main commercial fisheries.
		Also in California, Associated Press reported recently that a mysterious substance was discovered in two natural springs in the Whiskey Town National Recreation Area about six miles west of Reading.
		One of the men who discovered the strange stuff is Bud Ivey, Chief of Natural Resource Management at the Whiskey Town National Recreation Area.
		I ask him to describe this stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The world is getting to be a strange place.
unidentified		You're looking at a mass of stuff, and if you think of hair on a dog's back and expand the size of that hair to almost like a 16th of an inch and one and a half inches long, whitish shaped shell, white in color.
unidentified		These are attached, look like into the bottom of this soil, and they're filamentous and they're in the stream of flowing water.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And when you put your hand in the water and touch it, what did it feel like?
unidentified		Well, like a little slime or barely perceptible to touch.
unidentified		It's very fragile.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And then did it disappear where you tried to touch it?
unidentified		Well, you could actually lift it out and pick it out with your fingers and see something, but then it looked kind of like cotton or, you know, real fine.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And in the water, did it make the stream for five or six feet look almost pure white?
unidentified		In some areas, it was real thick and it, you know, covered the surface.
unidentified		In other areas, it didn't attach, and you could see the soil beneath it, beneath the flow.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And had you ever seen anything like that before?
unidentified		No.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		What is the weird stuff?
		Three different labs determined it's a bacterium that gets its energy by taking electrons from hydrogen sulfide.
		And it can only grow in water that has no oxygen.
		The Whiskey Town Springs have so much hydrogen sulfide, you can smell it where the springs come out of the ground.
		And the water is so ancient, it's called fossil water, dating back to the last ice age.
		But why did the bacterium show up now?
unidentified		We had a fair-sized earthquake on Thanksgiving Day.
		And their question was, is this organism, do you think, the result of earthquake activity and could it be related to volcanic activity?
		There's a lot of talk about those items in our regional area.
		So they thought there might be a link there.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, hydrogen sulfide might be related to some kind of volcanic activity that could have been set off by the earthquake.
unidentified		Well, that's possible, or it could have been existent there all the time.
		I think this site that we found this stuff lies on a naturally occurring and known fault called the Hoadley Fault.
		We have other areas where we smell that hydrogen sulfide also along the fault.
		We have some other spring flows.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So this could be related to the fact that the earthquake might have draffled something that released some hydrogen sulfide more into this spring than had been before, and that may be why you found it.
unidentified		Could be.
		Could be.
		Oh, it's been there for a long time.
		We just didn't see it.
		I really don't know.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		In other news recently, there were Louisiana newspaper headlines such as, quote, dying blackbirds rained down on North Louisiana town, unquote.
		The facts are this.
		The birds were grackles, not red-winged blackbirds, and thousands of grackles were on their normal migration south.
		The official Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries and Department of Agriculture counted the dead birds at only about 500, not thousands.
		What caused the grackles to drop into yards unable to walk and stretching and twisting their heads back before dying, as residents in Morehouse Parish reported?
		Well, the possible answer came this week from Dr. Simon Shane, professor in the Department of Epidemiology and Community Health at the School of Veterinary Medicine, Louisiana State University in Baton Rouge.
		Dr. Shane has been on a team that has examined several of the dead grackles.
		What did they find?
		Here is Dr. Simon Shane.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Should be interesting.
unidentified		There was no consistent bacterial infection.
		The microscopic examinations failed to show any signs which could be consistent with either a bacterial or a viral disease.
		And again, subsequent tox screens and examination of liver, kidney, muscle, tissue failed to reveal the presence of any toxin.
		So I came to the conclusion that what we were looking at here, and in view of the fact that only a small percentage of the flock was involved, we were actually looking at birds that were dying of hypoglycemia, low blood sugar, and the sequence would be that these are immature birds that are making their first migration.
		If you remember, about 10 to 12 days ago, there was a very serious weather disturbance involving the southeast and extending northeastwards with very, very high wind and rain.
		In fact, I think the storm spawned some tornadoes which caused serious damage.
		I believe that the birds that are affected were the outliers in the migration, the later birds.
		They were very severely buffeted, stressed, and strained by the weather.
		And when they came in, they were devoid of any fat, devoid of energy reserves, went down onto the ground, they did not eat, and they died.
		And in any migration, there will be a percentage of birds that die.
		And in view of the fact this is only approximately 400 to 500 out of, shall we say, 20 to 30,000 birds, that's not an excessive amount.
		What I think may have happened is that we may have had a clustering effect of these birds.
		And instead of these four or five hundred that died being spread out over a large area of uninhabited land, we may have had a few coming down or clustering in areas where people would see them and pick them up.
		But I personally do not regard this as either a disease problem or a toxicity based on the small numbers of birds involved, based on the complete absence of any lesions, the absence of any infective organism, and the absence of any toxin that we could find in them.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Now, how often have you in your work in veterinarian medicine heard of cases where birds would suffer these kinds of deaths from low blood sugar?
unidentified		Well, there are parallels in poultry where chickens with low blood sugar will show pretty much the same nervous clinical changes.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Now, were you able to make any analysis of the blood in these birds to determine if, in fact, they were hypoglycemic?
unidentified		No, unfortunately, because all the birds that I have looked at or that have come in have been dead birds.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And in your practice, have you ever seen grackles suffer this kind of die-off before from a low blood sugar?
unidentified		No, This particular connection has never been made, but I do know grackles die off as well as many other birds die off during migration.
unidentified		It's the weak ones which die.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And it is right now a hypothesis that it was low blood sugar, but you're not absolutely certain.
unidentified		I do know that when birds suffer low blood sugar, they will show clinical signs consistent with the descriptions which have been provided.
unidentified		And that is definite.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So that might be the answer to the Louisiana problem, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My God, it might be.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and it's going to be interesting as we continue to move into the spring.
		Right now, as I understand from talking to people down there, that was the end.
		There was just about a 10-day period in which these grackles were found in various lawns, in the streets, and the sidewalks.
		And Dr. Shane, he may be on the right track here, and we'll just have to see how this plays out further.
		And finally, I would like to let people know that the American Association for the Advancement of Science met the end of January in Anaheim, California.
		Biologist James Porter, professor of ecology and marine sciences at the University of Georgia, presented the latest findings about coral disease and death in the Florida Keys.
		And I've been reporting about this with him for the last couple of years.
		Between 1996 and 1998, the numbers are now in.
		There was a 446% increase in disease at 160 coral sites along the Florida coast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good lord.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		One reef experienced a death rate of 62%.
		That means more than half the coral is dead.
		Dr. Porter said that, quote, nearly all of the killing pathogens are new to science.
		Corals are like the canary in the mine.
		They are telling us that the water where they live is becoming suboptimal for their existence.
		We don't know if what we are seeing is a natural cycle or if it is being caused by what human beings are doing to the planet.
		Unquote.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Linda, you're also aware, aren't you, of the whale problem in California?
		The count is terribly down, and they think it has to do with the temperature of the water.
		Maybe.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		That's right, and that's another story that I've got to check further into.
		But looking at the worldwide picture, Dr. Porter reported to the AAAS that now about 10% of the coral worldwide has died.
		And if present trends and conditions continue, an additional 20 to 30% of the world's coral will be lost.
		New studies show that human viruses migrate into Florida coastal waters from the 1.6 million septic tanks in the state.
		Research confirms that within 24 hours of toilets being flushed, viruses and pathogens from those toilets are in the coastal waters.
		Many people are even becoming infected now with viruses and bacteria that are traced to that flushing while playing in the ocean.
		And this septic tank pollution might also be related to the increase in the killing pathogens that have not been seen ravaging coral before.
		I want to thank Dreamland and Coast listeners who helped me stay current with news about Earth changes and unusual phenomena.
		And I always welcome faxes to my number, which is 215-491-9842.
		That's 215-491-9842 to FAXME.
		And my mailing address is Linda Howe, H-O-W-E, Post Office Box 300, Jameson, Pennsylvania, zip code 1-8929.
		That's Linda Howe, Post Office Box 300, in Jameson, Pennsylvania, 18929.
		And Art, I'll check into the horses, and I'm checking into the whales.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You get the feeling, Linda, that the environment's collapsing around us?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Some days I do, and other days I say we have to keep trying to change what we do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Today is not a good day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Linda, thank you.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll see you this coming week or on Dreamland next Sunday.
		This is one of those days where I see the canary bouncing around stiff at the bottom of the cage.
		I'm Art Bell.
		This is Dreamland.
		But Hopkins is next.
		The End Online, of course, at AmericanGoldRose.com.
		Now comes Bud Hopkins, who should be familiar to all of you who listen to the programming that I do.
		He is author of Intruders, Witnessed, Missing Time.
		He is a remarkable man who has been in this field deeply and is respected by almost everybody in it as one of its leaders.
		So here is Bud Hopkins.
		Bud, welcome.
		Well, glad to be with you.
		I guess, you know, the first thing before we get off into what we're going to do, Bud, I'd like to ask you your reaction.
		Since you heard Linda Moulton Howe's report, what do you feel about all of this?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, it certainly is ominous to hear the ravenous encroachments, really, into the coral reefs, which are essential to the ecology of the atolls, many, many, many areas in the ocean.
		It really sounds pretty horrible, the idea that a third might be completely gone in a few years.
		And the idea that she mentioned that this may have to do with too many septic tanks too close to the water's edge in Florida in particular, again, I think it reminds us of the fact that overpopulation is just going to be a disaster to us.
		And I was thinking with some dismay of the fact that the Pope was just here in the United States preaching against birth control, which I find Shocking when one considers what's happening to the ecology of the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I could not agree more.
		And of course, as you pointed out, I think on the phone before the show, he's about to go to Mexico where he is going to preach.
		Indeed, there, pretty much to the choir, a very much Catholic nation.
		And I just, I don't know where all of this is headed for us, but I sense there's a reckoning coming.
		I can't shake loose of the fact that last week, a caller, and said, hey, you know what's happening?
		Earth is getting mad at us.
		And I said to the caller, no, no, I don't think Earth gets mad at us or angry.
		I think that Earth gets angry.
		And by that I mean that nature finds an imbalance if we create one and finds a way eventually to correct the balance.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		That may be true.
		And of course, whenever you look at something like a mountain range, I was in Italy with my wife last summer, and we saw a giant cliff that had obviously split in half, a scarp, a mountainous scarp.
		And you could see the various strata.
		Oh, this must have been a quarter of a mile high.
		As if the entire thing had split apart, so there was maybe a distance of a quarter of a mile between the two halves of this very high mountain.
		And you realize that that happened at some point not terribly long ago in terms of geological history.
		You realize that the Earth has always gone through incredible convulsions.
		And I think we sort of get ourselves lulled into believing that all the lakes are going to be the same height and all the water is going to be the same purity and everything is going to, the animal life is going to remain pretty much the way it is.
		It never has, and I think it's changing now.
		And of course, with this overpopulation we have and the toxic waste that are being dumped and so forth, I think it's speeding up.
		But I think we're always wrong to assume that nature is stable.
		Totally, isn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I couldn't agree more.
		Our weather is obviously undergoing some sort of profound change, be it short-term or long-term.
		We as short-term mortals don't really have a way of judging that, but obviously our weather is changing.
		And that seems to be part of it.
		And I guess in some ways, we can sort of jump from the present condition of the planet, parent condition, to the intruders, to whoever might be here, and whether there might be some correlation between the visitations we're getting and what we're doing to the planet.
		Any thoughts on that?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, there may well be.
		One of the problems is instead of having people like me for you to be interviewing, if you had the chief UFO occupant to talk to and could get a straight answer, we might know the answer to some of those questions.
		We really don't know is the bottom line.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you can arrange that interview for me.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I'll give it a shot.
		I think that it's very easy for us to take all kinds of earthly fears and hopes, and this is a theme I've talked about a great deal, and ascribe them to alien motives.
		I mean, when we think of the vast number of movies that have shown alien invaders coming down and blowing up the White House and everything else, I would say the basic science fiction mode is to show the UFO occupants as being sort of cosmic stormtroopers or something.
		There is absolutely no evidence for that whatsoever in the case material.
		It's interesting when I think about it, at my advanced age, I've been at this for 24 years and I've interviewed, well, I've worked one-on-one with something like 650 people reporting abduction experiences and Lord knows how many other people I've interviewed and how many books I've read and lectures I've attended and so forth.
		But through none of this really do we have any iota of evidence suggesting some kind of alien malevolence.
		But on the other hand, I don't see any evidence whatsoever of alien helpfulness.
		They seem to be playing the game their way, holding the cards very close.
		They do what they seem to have to do, and nobody really knows what the ultimate purpose of this is going to be, what it's going to turn out to be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There are many people who think the animal mutilations, the cattle mutilations, and the rest of it, may be a form of environmental monitoring.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And when you consider the possibilities, our government does not need to go into a farmer's field in the middle of the night and cut up a cow.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		No, I think you're absolutely right.
		I think that, you know, one of the funny things about the sort of paranoid edge that people have when they look at some of these things is they tend to assume the enemy or the government or whatever it is that they're thinking about is practically infallible.
		You know, every paranoid ascribes to the enemy almost, whoever the enemy is, almost unimaginable powers.
		And for instance, as you just said, with the animal mutilations, here we've had thousands of mutilated animals.
		And I've run into a number of cases that are clearly connected with abductions.
		And of course, so is Linda in her work, Linda Howe.
		The idea that somehow the government is running around in the dead of night and running into farmers' fields and leaving no footprints and doing this is just ridiculous.
		They could do it in a laboratory under a controlled environment if they wanted to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Precisely.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And just as an example, I was attending a very interesting party last night.
		It was a 96th birthday party for Alex Imich, who is quite a wonderful student of parapsychology and a friend of mine.
		This was at Ingo Swan.
		So it was quite an interesting gathering.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Ingo, yes.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		And the thing was, I was talking to somebody who said he had had some Abduction experiences.
		And he said the government sent five black helicopters over and hovering over his house the next day.
		And this has happened again and again.
		And I said, well, what do you think the government is doing that for?
		And he said, oh, they're trying to intimidate me.
		And I said, well, are you intimidated?
		And he said, no, he wasn't intimidated.
		He was angry.
		And I asked him why he really thought the government would spend all that money to get these helicopters fueled up and piloted and send them over his house to sit there, absolutely no effect on his behavior whatsoever, except to maybe make him go public with it.
		You know, it doesn't make any sense.
		It's again an imagining of government power and expense and so forth.
		And I said, you know, if we have 30 or 40, 50,000 people abducted every night, let's just say, I mean, I'm making up numbers here.
		I think I have 150,000 helicopters to divide it up to fly over people's houses with the hope that somebody's intimidated.
		It doesn't work that way.
		I think it's part of the UFO phenomenon, actually.
		And I think the cattle mutilation is too as a phenomenon.
		Incidentally, not to run this into the ground, but it's an interesting thing that I think every UFO researcher has realized, and that is that in many cases, it seems the UFO occupants leave behind some kind of image or memory or something, almost designed to really fix this in the memory of the witness or the abductee, instead of trying to conceal it, trying to make them remember.
		I was dealing with a man who was on a hiking trip in Spain, and he has probably had abduction experiences based on a lot of other things he told me.
		But he was taking a walk out into a rural village, and he said, in the middle of this field, as he looked over, he saw a man walking across the field in a silk hat and tails and a white tie.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		This is in rural Spain.
		And he looked at the man, and he thought, well, it must be a magician going out on a gig.
		He's got a job somewhere.
		He couldn't imagine what in the world this man was walking across the field.
		And he looked away, and when he looked back a second later, the man had vanished, and there was no trees or anything to hide behind.
		He just was gone.
		And he felt very uneasy, and when he came back to his inn where he was staying, he'd lost some time.
		Now, if that experience was an abduction, and it might have been, I mean, I have no way of knowing that, but based on a lot of other things I learned about this individual who was a physicist, incidentally, it may have been.
		It's almost as if the alias was saying, well, what can we possibly show this man to make him remember what happened to him?
		And whether it's a guy in a silk hat or a black helicopter or whatever, I do think that there are lots and lots of signs given to really ingrain the memory in the person's conscious mind that something unusual happened.
		And I don't know why they do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy.
		Yeah, I just, I have no idea what to make of all of this.
		And I guess after all the years that you've been involved, you're still scratching your head to some degree as well.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		This is where we have to pick this up, I think.
		That we know now a great many things about what happens to human beings in these experiences.
		When I first started doing research in this back in the middle 70s, I discovered things like the screen memory situation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you want to explain to people what this is?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll give you a very graphic example.
		A woman was driving home, and she had had some odd experiences in her childhood, but she did not connect this following experience with UFOs until much later on.
		But she was driving home, and she said this cow came over to her car.
		This is at night.
		And the cow looked in the window of the car and had big soulful eyes.
		And the cow ran alongside the car staring in the window.
		And she was going about 45 miles an hour.
		It was obviously a thoroughbred cow.
		And all of a sudden, the cow wasn't there, and she got home very late.
		Well, she didn't see a cow looking in the window of her car, that's for sure.
		But it's as if in a UFO abduction experience, a person can be made to see something.
		This is played in on the brain from the outside.
		And maybe this is something which will make the person remember the experience consciously, at least the unusual quality of it.
		Or maybe it's a way of concealing the fact that this wasn't a cow, it was a little gray man with black eyes.
		And the screen memory, which is very, very common, another woman I was just dealing with recently was driving along at night and an owl came down, a big owl, and its wings were told that it wasn't flying.
		It came straight down, landed in front of her car.
		She had to stop, driving a Volvo.
		And she said the owl just stood in front of the car and stared at her over the hood of the Volvo.
		And she was convinced that they had very big owls in that part of Connecticut where she lives.
		Well, the screen memory is a way in which UFO occupants can handle, make people see something that's not there.
		And that, of course, creates a big problem when you do research in this because what a person consciously remembers may or may not be anything like what has actually happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you break through a screen memory?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you take somebody into a deep state of hypnosis and break through that barrier?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that can be done, and that's one of the reasons why we use hypnosis and why it's extremely helpful.
		And actually, sometimes it's not at all infrequent, that you can consciously deal with a person, I mean, with a conscious, unhypnotized state, and ask a few questions, and a screen memory begins to crumble before your very eyes.
		I mean, a quick example.
		Two young women driving home in a car from a party in the outskirts of Washington, D.C., came upon a six-car pileup of wrecked cars.
		And there was no one in any of the cars, they remembered, and all the lights were on in the cars, and there were no emergency vehicles or witnesses or anything, but there were six cars all piled up.
		And they got home and felt very odd about it, and then they got home quite late.
		And each one, not suspecting anything beyond a big wreck of cars, communicated with their parents by telephone.
		They were college kids, and when they called home, they said, gee, we saw the strangest thing last night, and reported the same story.
		But what happened is when they looked at the newspapers for it and they made some inquiries, there was no six-car pileup.
		And I began asking questions such as, I said, well, did you stop to see if anybody was hurt?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, no.
		Why not?
		Well, you know, and they sort of looked at each other.
		Well, it was kind of spooky.
		I don't know.
		I said, well, I imagine that you stopped at the first telephone and you reported this accident in case somebody was lying on the floor of one of those cars bleeding.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't know.
		Well, why didn't you do that?
		Well, the more they began to examine the fact that their own behavior made no sense whatsoever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To them.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		To them.
		Yeah.
		And also the fact that I said, you know, isn't it unusual that all the cars would be wrecked and have their lights on?
		Maybe one car would have lost its electricity or something in the wreck.
		And I said, was there a lot of traffic there?
		Because you don't get a six-car pileup unless you've got traffic.
		No, there was no car around.
		It was deserted.
		And every question I asked made them doubt that what they had seen was a six-car pileup.
		And under hypnosis, separately, both women remembered LA at the UFO, and it was actually an abduction.
		They had stopped.
		But the point is that the fact that they remembered both, both of them remembered exactly the same image lets you know that this is not a self-generated false memory.
		What it is essentially is a memory that's imposed upon them from the outside.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Let me stop you for a second.
		You said that each one of them then later, under hypnosis, recalled seeing a UFO.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was a landed UFO.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's very interesting because one great charge, of course, with the John MacPhair and all the rest of it is that there can be stings, there can be lies, there can be imagination injected into all of this, but for both of them to come up with the same story seems rather far-fetched.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, it's, of course, one of the big false stories put out by debunkers that this is some kind of fantasy that takes place in a single head.
		Because I've got cases involving seven people at once.
		They all remember an abduction case.
		They all remember everything happening in the same way.
		And, of course, Ray Fowler's book, The Allagash Abductions, which is an excellent book, dealt with four men who remembered everything exactly the same way under hypnosis in an abduction that took place in Maine.
		There isn't any doubt, though, that people can confabulate, and one has to be always very, very careful in their hypnotic technique to very subtly test the recollections of the people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, with the multiple cases in mind, Bud, in all your years of study, have you come to an absolute conclusion about, if not the reality of everything we hear, which is ridiculous, but have you come to grasp sufficient proof to be able to say this really is what it appears to be?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that is, of course, abduction by others.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		There's no doubt about that.
		One thing, I never like to use the word proof.
		Proof is how much evidence it takes to persuade somebody that something is true.
		And evidently, for something like 15% of the population, they don't believe the Holocaust occurred or that we ever walked on the moon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's try this then.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The reasonable man test, if you had to go into court and present evidence, could you compile sufficient evidence, in your opinion, to cause a jury to convict if it was that kind of a case?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I certainly would hope so.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Of course, you know, so did the prosecutors in the O.J. Simpson case, too.
unidentified		So, you know, things are flexible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Point well taken.
		All right, but hold on.
		We're at the top of the hour.
		We'll take a break here.
		Bud Hopkins is my guest, and the subject is very, very serious this night.
		I'm Art Bell from an area near Dreamland.
		This is Greenland.
unidentified		This is Greenland.
unidentified		The busier you are, the more you treasure it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ask about the sale on gold.
		All right, now it's back to Bud Hopkins.
		And Bud, here's a question that I've got for you.
		With all your years of research and with the environmental distress that we're having right now, it might be useful to try and understand the motive of the visitors.
		There are a lot of people in efology who think that, yes, things are collapsing around our ears and these guys are going to come down and save our asses.
		So it might be useful to know what you know about what their intentions are.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, there doesn't seem to be any way we can talk about what their ultimate intentions are.
		I mean, I have to say there are a thousand theories.
		I don't think we can look to them necessarily to save our asses, as you put it.
		I don't think that we can do that.
		Although I fully understand the human need for us to want to think that.
		But you see, there isn't any doubt in my mind that UFOs have been flying around here for quite some time.
		And certainly in the 20th century, we have many, many sightings going back into, just in the short term, going back to World War II.
		And yet I don't know of a single solitary Jewish man, woman, or baby saved from the Holocaust.
		I don't know that there was any intervention in Trying to prevent the Allies from dropping the atomic bomb and killing so many Japanese people.
		I don't see any sense that there's been any kind of intervention on any level.
		So if you look back over past history and you realize they've been here, but apparently have not done anything to alter things, at least anything that we can see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then do we presume the prime directives to use a Star Trekism?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Yeah.
		Well, that's obviously a rationale, but it doesn't necessarily mean that there's any truth to it, or that, for instance, in the Prime Directive, that they necessarily would try to help the environment either and intervene there.
		I don't really know.
		I just haven't seen any signs of it.
		And I certainly obviously join others in hoping that there will be some kind of help.
		But it seems to me they're very single-minded about what they are doing with human beings, and it doesn't seem to involve the environment.
		Also, something to remember is many times when UFOs have landed, in the cases that I dealt with, for instance, in my book Improoters, when the craft landed and sat on the ground for a short time, the soil was kind of baked into a rock-like hardness and really became almost sterile and wouldn't support life.
		So it isn't as if we're getting wonderful lush greenery under one UFO.
		We're getting almost the opposite.
		I wish we got greenery instead.
		So I don't see any signs of it, although, you know, obviously there's no reason to give up hope.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you make any best guesses about what their motives are?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is your best guess?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		My basic theory, which I presented in Intruders, and it's certainly been, I would say, accepted by the majority of abduction researchers, is that they have reached some kind of evolutionary dead end and need our DNA to revivify their own species.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm beginning to wonder if that wouldn't be the blind leading the blind.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, it might be, but DNA point of view.
		The interesting thing is that we have now, in terms of the writings of a lot of futurists, the sense that with cyberspace and the net and so forth, as time goes on, our brains should expand, according to the evolutionists,
		and our bodies will become less muscular, less physical, really, less sexual, that as our genetic engineering is refined and in vitro fertilization becomes common and so forth, everything would point to the idea that we might be moving in that direction ourselves.
		And it's possible that if they have a 100,000-year start on us, they might have found themselves in some point where they need the primitiveness, really, of human sexuality, of human emotions, of human physical vigor, and so forth.
		And therefore, in coming here and taking our DNA and setting up some kind of breeding experiment, creating a hybrid mix, they may be attending to their own problems.
		That may also ultimately help us in some way, too.
		We don't really know.
		But I think that that seems to be the absolute dead center of this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I've heard from a number of researchers that, and I have interviewed women who claim to have been abducted, impregnated, and then at a later time shown what they were either told or assumed to be their children.
		Absolutely.
		How common is that?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		It's extremely common.
		I would say that the vast majority of abductees that I've worked with have recalled, either consciously or under hypnosis, some kinds of procedures inside the UFO which involved removing, apparently, OLVA and certainly removing sperm and these artificial inseminations taking place.
		This is not sexual activity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's reproductive activity.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		It's sterile.
		And they're later shown their purported offspring.
		Now, this is, of course, what I presented in Intruders.
		And I think until then, we were floundering around trying to figure out why they were doing this, and particularly why they were doing something that I had written about in Intruders, which was picking up people in childhood and then going back and targeting them again and again as if there's something about that person's development which is important and interesting to the UFO occupants.
		There's certainly everything about this that would suggest a long-range, long-term genetic breeding experiment, actually.
		And we have no idea what that is leading to.
		Various people have different theories, and David Jacobs has spelled out a very, very cogent and rather frightening theory, which he said he profoundly hopes is not true, about what the future holds.
		But they seem to be absolutely single-mindedly set on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		David Jacobs is correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then we ought to be shooting at them, shouldn't we?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a very ambiguous thing.
		Somebody said, well, maybe you have to interpret this as tough love, you know, on their part.
		And I said, well, if their doctor is here to fix up the species on the planet, I said, I don't like their bedside manner.
		The point is that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then there's another point, and maybe we are shooting at them.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		There's some.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very interesting footage.
		STS-48 and on shows some pretty weird things going on in space.
		And this brings us to, let me ask you about this, bud, it's important.
		Do you believe that, A, our government is aware of the intruders?
		And B, there is, of course, the conspiracy theory that our government has made some kind of deal with the intruders.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, the answer to one is There's to me no doubt that they know about this.
		I have absolutely no doubt about that.
		And I think that actually Roswell is probably only one of a number of UFO crashes.
		So I think the hardware is there, and I don't have any reason to doubt that whatsoever.
		So some branch of the government, probably a very, very small, carefully selected branch, is very aware of this, and there is a cover-up.
		As to whether or not there's been some kind of deal made, I don't think so.
		And basically, the reason I don't is because it seems to me that they can do pretty much whatever they want to do.
		They hold the cards in their hands, the UFO occupants.
		And I don't think, you know, I used to have this amused image back in, following that particular theory situation, back in the days of Bush and Dan Quayle, that I had an image of a little gray guy with a clipboard standing with big black eyes in Dan Quayle's office and saying, here, we've got a list of two-year-olds in New Jersey we want to abduct, and we've got some insurance salesmen in Long Island and so forth.
		If you'll sign off on these, we'll take them and get your permission, and we'll give you something in exchange, as if they had to do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But here's something to think about.
		Go back further.
		Go back to Jimmy Carter, who had his own experience.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Jimmy Carter, who once, when confronted by one of my listeners who was standing in front of him with a book.
		He had a book, and Jimmy Carter was autographing it for him.
		And he asked, he said, President Carter, you told us when you ran for office, you would tell us what was known about UFOs when you got into office.
		And he stopped cold, and he looked up, because a lot of times when you're at book signings, as you know, you just sit there and sign and sign and sign.
		You hardly even ever look up.
		Jimmy Carter looked up at him and there was a tear in his eye and he just stopped.
		Then there's Reagan, who three, four, was it five times, said, what if our Earth was forced to unite against an enemy from out there?
		That's what Reagan said.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Plus he had, I believe he had a UFO sighting himself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And, well, in other words, were the presidents close to this information?
		Were the presidents informed, or is it some off-the-shelf in-the-basement operation outside of government elected?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, Art, frankly, I don't know the answer to that.
		And one of the ways that, reasons that I think we've made a great deal of progress in understanding this whole crazy business is that we followed Alan Hynek's suggestion, which was to specialize.
		And I specialized in UFO abductions.
		I was talking to Linda Howe once, and she was, of course, specializing in animal mutilations, and I said, well, you know, I don't get many dead cows on 16th Street between 7th and 8th Avenues in Manhattan.
		So it's very hard for me to deal with that subject.
		When it gets to government cover-up and who is doing what, I have enough information and some of it from case material that I've looked into, including one UFO crash, which is an extremely interesting case.
		It's not yet been made public.
		But I have enough information to have no doubt that the government, some branch thereof, has picked up the pieces, so to speak.
		Whether or not Jimmy Carter knows or Reagan knew and so on, or Bill Clinton, I have no idea whether this is some sort of self-contained thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you for mentioning Bill Clinton.
		One of the first instructions, in fact, the first instruction he gave was to find out two things.
		Who killed Kennedy and whether there really is anything, what knowledge we have about UFOs.
		Apparently, he was satisfied on neither point.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Well, my guess is that this is so high up in its secrecy quotient, really, that probably some self-appointed or government-appointed at some earlier time,
		MJ-12 type of thing, type of organization, if it isn't MJ-12, there would have to be something like it, might even feel empowered to conceal this from the president on the grounds that until something breaks in a dramatic way, that there's some sort of communication or we know what the aliens' ultimate goals are, if we could trust them, that the president is kept uninformed.
		Who knows?
		We do know, for instance, as a historical fact, that Harry Truman had not been briefed on the atomic bomb as the Vice President of the United States until he succeeded Roosevelt after Roosevelt's death in April 1944.
		Nobody told him he was the vice president with a very sick president.
		He didn't know a damn thing about it.
		Now, this can show you how compartmentalized intelligence communities can get.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you remember the movie Independence Day, right?
		Yeah.
		The second half of it I thought was pretty fanciful, but the first half of it I thought was very provocative because the aliens that came down didn't want to make a deal.
		They didn't want our resources.
		They didn't want our women.
		They didn't want anything except for us to be dead.
		And that struck me.
		Now, if that should happen to be the case and information is being withheld, I don't know how warm and fuzzy I feel about that.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I agree.
		None of us would feel warm and fuzzy about that.
		I think, actually, when I examine my conscience, I know that if I felt people were dying at the hands of the aliens or something like that, if there were deaths, if there were things a great deal worse than what happens to people, and what happens to people under abductions, I think of as, I think you would call it collateral damage.
		In other words, it's not intended.
		Very much like when one of our rockets hits a hospital instead of an anti-aircraft battery in Iraq, we didn't mean to blow up the hospital.
		Collateral damage is the term.
		I don't think the aliens mean to cause problems, physical and psychological and emotional, though they do.
		But if I felt truly that they were deliberately out to do us in some way and there were deaths and so forth, I think that I would be looking at the whole phenomenon very differently than I do.
		I would have an enormous rage and what I would be doing.
		But it doesn't seem to be that.
		And I must say, this is one of the reasons why the whole phenomenon is so puzzling to the people to whom it happens.
		Because this one man said to me, he was a pretty strong specimen and well-built, and he said, I couldn't move.
		And he said, I'm looking at these little people who had me paralyzed, and I could have knocked them, you know, here the kingdom come.
		But he said, I couldn't look at them as enemies because they weren't actually doing anything harmful to me.
		They were just staring at me.
		And he said, I couldn't look at them as friends either.
		And I didn't know where to put them.
		And my emotions were sort of flooding here and there, but they weren't focused in any particular way.
		And I think that that's one of the reasons people have such trouble dealing with this.
		They go with all kinds of different emotional rushes because there is no clear-cut signal coming through.
		We are here to hurt you.
		We are here to help you.
		We are enemies.
		We hate you.
		We are your friends.
		Those things don't come through.
		And I think when you read even something like if you follow some of the abductees' various different positions at different times, I think Whitley Streeber being a very good example, he's gone everything from hating them and dread and terror and thinking they're wonderful and they're visitors and bouncing around because I think essentially no one is getting a clear signal from them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		His latest attitude is closer to David Jacobs, frankly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think that he's beginning to have some rather severe reservations about their motives.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that I don't think anybody can be in this very long, as I have been.
		And look at the damage that's definitely done to people psychologically.
		I mean, as an example, I got a phone call with a police lieutenant in New Jersey who has had these experiences.
		And he said that the humiliating thing is he can't go to sleep at night without the covers pulled up to his eyes.
		And he's embarrassed because he has a wife and a child.
		The windows have to be closed.
		He has to have a gun there.
		I mean, now this is a man in his 40s.
		And you could multiply this by thousands of cases where people have been traumatized, I don't think deliberately on the part of the aliens, as I said, collateral damage, but the damage is very, very real.
		And there's no way that you can face this day after day and see the emotion people have put through and the trauma without being plenty angry and depressed about what might be the ultimate goal.
		We don't, the ultimate resolution of this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Bud, hold on.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		We'll be right back.
		And when we do come back, I want to talk a little bit about the New Age community.
		And again, reference the movie ID4.
		We'll be right back.
		This is Dreamland.
unidentified		This is Dreamland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, Bud Hopkins, Bud, again, Independence Day, I recall the New Age community and the way they were depicted in ID4, where they all rushed to the top of the building and held up banners saying, welcome.
		And, of course, the bottom of the ship opened up and vaporized them.
		Now, in ufology right now, we have sort of a segment that's a New Age community segment mixed in with a hardcore ufologist.
		And they're the ones who are liable to be thinking that our butts are going to get saved and that these people are the gods, little G or maybe even big G. And they're getting mixed up in ufology.
		How do you see that affecting things?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that we have to, as close as possible, do something like science as we look into this.
		I mean, we really have to, are objective as we can.
		And we have to also recognize that bound up in every human being's brain is a whole range of fears and a whole range of hopes.
		Quasi-religious hopes and feelings somebody's looking out for us out there and fears that we're going to come to some horrible end.
		We have just simply got to train ourselves to keep that box of fears and that box of hopes out of the picture and to try to look at this as objectively as possible.
		And one thing I'd like to mention, because I realize we haven't really gone into some of the patterns of all this, but I would like to, if I could, suggest if anybody's interested in reading about the work I've done and the things that I've uncovered over the years, that I have three different books that you mentioned at the beginning, Intruders, Missing Time, and Witnessed.
		But they are available if somebody wants to call the Greenleaf Publications.
		There's an 800 number.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		1-800-905-8367.
		905-8367.
		It's an 800 number, and they actually can take calls as we continue with the program because they're set up with operators to handle calls.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We also have links on the website to each and every one of your books and your website and amazon.com.
		All of that's on my website now, as people are used to.
		So if you want to get there, post it.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		That's terrific, because I think that, you know, if people have a chance to read the books, they can get a far more rounded picture, obviously.
		We're sort of dipping in and out of a vast subject.
		Obviously, in my opinion, the most important subject that any human being could be Talking about right now, actually.
		And one other thing, we are going to have for people in the New York City area or wherever, we're going to have a conference on April 10th with a number of people who have been guests of yours, Stanton Friedman, David Jacobs, myself, of course, Jerome Clark, Jerry Clark, who's edited this wonderful UFO encyclopedia, and Carol Rainey, who is doing a piece at the conference on April 10th about how the media has responded to this.
		There's going to be a little bit of an inside story on the infamous NOVA program about abductions.
		She's a media person.
		And I will just give the, if anybody's interested in getting in touch with us about this information, there's a phone number here, 212-645-5278.
		And they can receive information.
		That's the Office of the Intruders Foundation.
		But it's going to be a one-day conference.
		I think it's going to be extremely helpful, just focused on the UFO issue, on the UFO abduction issue.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, it sounds like a good group.
		I'm familiar with everybody.
		One other issue I want to ask you about, and that's ufology itself.
		Right now, it's sort of tearing itself to pieces.
		I see fights going on now, vitriolic fights over the internet and elsewhere, as I've never seen before.
		It's like there are paid disinformation agents or troublemakers out there right now.
		In all the years I've been covering this, I've never seen it as intense as it is right now.
		That must mean something.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, also, you know, I think we have to thank the Internet for making all of this possible.
		Because, you know, five years ago, before people were busily logging on, if you were angry at somebody, you more or less sat home and stewed in your own juice or wrote a letter or something.
		but you couldn't make it public to the entire world in two seconds.
		And I think that that has elevated the...
		especially with a subject like this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's a downside.
		Michael Crichton, I think it was Michael Crichton, wrote in one of his books that he had a concern about the Internet, and that was that it is becoming so pervasive, so worldwide, that what we're going to end up with at the end of the day is no progress.
		We're going to end up with the top 10 ideas, and they're going to be the top 10 ideas in Bombay, in Moscow, in Washington, and everywhere else.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		That may well be the case.
		But I think that if you have this plethora of information and theories and opinions and everything else, it makes it infinitely more difficult for an individual to sort things out.
		At least when you have, as in New York City, I have the New York Times, which most of the time does a very good job, I think, of sorting out the relevant from the irrelevant and so on, although there's some very, very large lacks, particularly in the handling of the UFO subject.
		But at least the major international news gets sorted out.
		But I think when you turn to the Internet and you have everything under the sun available to you, you could just walk away staggered and confused.
		I don't know what the answer to this is.
		I'm not trying to say abolish the Internet.
		But the point is that I think it's made it oddly more difficult for people to be clear about things than it was earlier.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We imagine, we talked about it a little while ago, the possibility of an off-the-shelf in-basement operation sort of managing all of this information right now.
		The Internet, of course, would be an ideal place for any disinformation to be distributed and for any infighting to be instigated.
		You agree?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, except that because of the mass of stuff on the Internet, I think it's harder for disinformation people to be dominant.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		In other words, they're only one more voice in a gigantic chorus.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One more, but consider, for example, the Kennedy assassination.
		If somebody who had the absolute truth about the Kennedy assassination walked to a podium and told the absolute truth on national television, we wouldn't, it would just be, it would be one more conspiracy theory to put on the pile, unreachable already, of conspiracy theories.
		And you'd never know the truth when you heard it.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		Well, that's why I say it.
		It makes things more difficult in a strange way.
		You know, when you think about the way a peasant lived in 1620, going to bed when it got dark and waking up when the sun came up, and the range of choices that man had, that family had, the range of possible mates, the range of what that person could do with his life, I mean, the range is incredibly tiny.
		But now we're so expanded by the mobility, the new technology, the affluence of this country, and the internet and so forth, that we're just almost paralyzed with the range of possibilities.
		And I think, in a certain sense, what's probably a very good thing is that I think government handouts in general are less effective now.
		It's one reason why we have really, actually, I think, smaller government now than we did, say, under Dwight Eisenhower, where the government spoke with a stronger voice because there was very little else to listen to except the television news and the big newspapers.
		But now, you've got so many voices talking.
		I think the government is less powerful than it was.
		It Can be a disinformation agent operating as you've just described, could obviously create mischief, but I think much less mischief than what could have been created, say, in the Eisenhower era.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, let's talk about a little mischief for a second.
		PBS has a well-respected program, a science program called NOVA.
		They did a show on abductions that not everybody who's listening right now may have seen.
		Tell them what happened, Bud, with Nova.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, this was...
unidentified		Yeah.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, the thing was that they came to me and wanted me to, in a certain sense, present new cases and it would be the feature of the program.
		I realized ultimately that I was the target.
		John Mack came in at the end as a second target, but I'm afraid I got the bread of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What did they say about you?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, this is what they did.
		I said, let's avoid any cases that involve hypnosis because hypnosis is always attacked.
		Let's just deal with the cases where people remember things consciously.
		And as an example, we went to Florida to look into a case that I had never met the people, but I had received letters.
		They filmed interviews with these people talking about what they remembered consciously having happened, the abduction of their children.
		And the husband in this particular family described for the cameras how he was paralyzed.
		He went down.
		He was lying on the floor with the cameras filming him.
		He was paralyzed and trying to move a knee to hit the wall to wake up his wife because there were two aliens standing within three feet of a.
		And he could see at the end of the room a couple of other occupants floating his four-year-old son out the window.
		And this is enormously dramatic, enormously moving.
		And it was all filmed.
		At some point, they asked me to do a hypnotic session with the mother of this little boy, the wife, to show something about hypnosis.
		So we did.
		And what they showed on the program, when they put it all together, they suppressed every single thing that was conscious recollection, including this dramatic scene, the most dramatic thing they filmed, of the husband on the floor.
		It was all suppressed.
		And they showed just a little piece of the hypnosis section and said something like, on the basis of nothing more than a hypnotic recall and a child's reactions, Hopkins invented or imagined or something like that, I'd use the word invented, an abduction experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I recall.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it was, and on top of this, one last thing, and I don't want to get going on this, but because I still am so angry.
		They wanted all the photographs that I had of the marks on people's bodies that follow abduction experiences very often.
		The straight line cuts, which are often very like three and four inches long, the scoop marks.
		And this is very dramatic stuff.
		The ground traces where the soil has been altered and so on.
		I gave them all those photographs.
		They suppressed them all, did not use any of them, and announced on the program there was no physical evidence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, but I remember you using words like slanderous.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		No, I thought it was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, there is, that's not NBC, CBS, ABC, even Fox.
		That's no.
		That's PBS.
		So if there's not an active agenda behind something like that, then what were they doing?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, there was obviously an agenda behind it.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I think an agenda from the beginning, that this was going to be a debunking effort, and I was going to be savaged any way they could do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But that isn't what we think of NOVA.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That isn't what we think of PBS as government-supported PBS.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have had a number of people say that now, no matter what NOVA program they're looking at, they don't necessarily trust the science that's being presented.
		And I think that for many people, and I had many letters too, as a result, people were dropping their subscription to PBS and so forth, and there was an uproar of letters and faxes and so forth sent to WGBH that produced it.
		And of course, Carl Sagan was central to the program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But see, they weren't driven, because of who they were, to do anything but try to do an objective program.
		So the fact that there was, obviously, you and I believe, an agenda there, says there's active, serious disinformation at work.
		I mean, I come right back to that.
		And that's how I brought you back to that.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I agree, Art, that the whole program could be considered as a huge piece of disinformation.
		That's exactly what the program was.
		But I'm not going to point a particular finger at whether it's Carl Sagan's personal saying they had class as a consultant, whether this is something that the government or some branch thereof was involved in, whether the WGBH intellectuals just think that there's nothing more ridiculous than UFOs.
		I don't know who is back of this or what group of what is behind it.
		And I leave that to somebody else.
		I feel sometimes if we make too many, for myself, if I make too many specific accusations that I can't back up with anything except the gut feeling, then I look a little foolish.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me tell you a pretty interesting story.
		I just received an award.
		You know the PsyCOP people, right?
		Yeah.
		Okay, well, I received something called, I'm looking at it now, their Snuffed Candle Award.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I've heard of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
		Presented to Art Bell, blah, blah, blah, for encouraging creduity, presenting pseudoscience is genuine, contributing To the public's lack of understanding of the methods of scientific inquiry.
		So I thought one of their charges was I would never bring anybody on who would disagree with me.
		So I brought on Professor Nichol, who ostensibly came on the program to defend the giving of this in quotes award to me.
		And it was a most interesting program, but midway through the program, I said, oh, by the way, Dr. Nichols, have you ever heard my show?
		There was a long silence.
		And he said, actually, no.
		I said, excuse me, you've never heard my program.
		You're here defending your organization's award to me, and you've never heard my program.
		Well, no.
unidentified		Now, to me, bud.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I tell you, I've dealt with that man too, Joe Nicol.
		And the basic point is that they, those people, are the true believers, and we are the skeptics.
		Incidentally, the New York Review of Books recently reviewed some books, and I was taken to task by Frederick Cruz, the writer, and he just about went through the roof because a writer called, writing a book, I think Aliens Among Us or something like that, I forget her, Jodi Dean.
		It was a book put out by the Cornell University Press, and she said in the book that Hopkins is actually more skeptical than Carl Sagan, which caused the writer of this to have an apoplectic fit, I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But here's the point.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		You see, somebody comes to you or to me and says, there's this story of the UFO that blah, blah, blah.
		Somebody saw and this and that happened.
		There was an abduction report.
		What do you think about it?
		What are the alternatives?
		You haven't heard the details, just to start with.
		What do you think are the possibilities there?
		Well, you or I could say, well, it's possible the person is lying, made it up.
		It's possible that the person is psychologically covered in some way, didn't really happen, or that he's telling the truth.
		We have three different possibilities.
		But Joe Nickel and the skeptics only have two.
		Because of their belief system, number three can't happen.
		Therefore, they have to take, because of their theology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We will absolutely have Baud Hopkins.
		And Bud, this has been a very serious, minded discussion this morning.
		And I guess I want to stay there in a way.
		I want to talk about whether what we're experiencing.
		Many, many people feel that, for example, Michelle Cocker, Dr. Tucker in New York City, with you in New York City.
		I interview him frequently.
		He now rather thinks, he's a theoretical physicist, that there are as many as 10 or even 12 or more dimensions.
		And we have to imagine the possibility that these craft, particularly with some of the abilities they seem to exhibit, may not be from somewhere else, but may be in fact from another dimension.
		If you can imagine an Earth, a parallel Earth or many of them, that they could be from these places as easily as out there in space.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's certainly an intriguing theory.
		We've had many, many theories over the years.
		The time travelers idea, the idea that they are somehow interdimensional, as you just explained.
		There are all kinds of possibilities, and I really don't know much what to say.
		I have a funny remark to report of a friend of mine, Ted Bocher, who had been in theater for years.
		And somebody asked him once, when the UFOs are seen and then they leave, they disappear, where do they go?
		And he said, I don't know, maybe they go behind the scenery, which is a sort of a...
		But one thing I'd like to bring up are just on exactly on this point, which I find extremely interesting.
		But one thing I'd like to bring up are just exactly on this point, which I find extremely interesting, and that is we have many, many reasons to believe, many case reports, that suggest when a person is abducted, that the UFO occupants, the craft, and the abductee, or plural in some cases, are somehow rendered invisible.
		No one can see them.
		Are they in some other dimension, as you explain, or what?
		Some type of technology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or even more mysteriously, Bud, that sometimes one person sees them and the other doesn't.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Well, if that happens, it implies, I think, that the other person is somehow connected with the phenomenon in one way or another.
		I just wanted to report a case that was extremely interesting to me.
		I was visiting Australia a few years ago giving lectures.
		And after a lecture, a couple came up, and they were rather upset because some of the things I had been saying in the talk intersected with experiences they had had.
		And they asked me a few questions, and they were quite nervous.
		Very, very nice couple.
		But at one point, the wife said, well, have you ever seen anything like this?
		And handed me four photographs.
		Snapshots.
		And all the snapshots were in a sort of red, as if when you print something and you print it in a four-color process, and you only hit the red going through first.
		That's what they look like.
		And I said, I hadn't seen anything like this.
		And I said, were the other pictures in the same little film similarly?
		And she said, no, just these.
		And they were pictures having to do with a trip that they made when they took their children to a playground, little, very small children.
		And the first picture showed actually the children climbing on the slide.
		And I said, I'd never seen anything like this.
		And the woman said, well, it isn't the red color that's the problem.
		She said, we are supposed to be in these pictures, and we're not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And I said, what do you mean?
		And there was a photograph of just a view out over the water and a sidewalk, and just a sort of a dumb, blank picture.
		And she said, my husband and the two children were standing here posing, and I took this picture, and when we got them back, we weren't in the picture.
		And the same thing when the husband took pictures of her with the children.
		And she, this was a number of years earlier.
		In other words, the children, the pictures had been taken 10 or 12 years before, a little longer than that, I think.
		And I, of course, got very intrigued.
		And I said, well, what did you think about that day on the beach, on the playground nearby the beach?
		And she said, how did you feel?
		And she said, well, we all felt kind of very strange.
		And she said, you know, the thing is the children always loved that playground.
		It was the closest one to us, but they would never go back there again after that day.
		So I began to get extremely interested.
		And at any rate, I spoke to the husband and wife at some length later on and without telling him anything about my suspicions.
		And at one point, the wife agreed to do hypnosis.
		The husband was not there.
		And what she described is after she took the picture of her husband and the children, and she gave him the camera.
		They moved to a slightly different location.
		And he was taking the picture.
		And she said, all of a sudden, under hypnosis, with a lot of trepidation, she said, we're going up.
		She and the two children.
		Straight up.
		And under hypnosis.
		As a little sort of false lead, I said, well, does your husband shout, you know, that you're going up?
		That's the leading question.
		She said, he doesn't seem like he's moving.
		He's frozen holding the camera.
		Good Lord.
		And up they went, and she could see the craft, and they went into it.
		Now, this is a playground on a Saturday afternoon outside Brisbane.
		At any rate, they took her away from the children and took them into another room.
		She was extremely upset, and a lot of things transpired that were very, very typical of abductions, which I won't even go into.
		At the end of this, down she goes again.
		With the children.
		See, they're reunited in sort of a hallway in the craft.
		And she can see her husband down there, still standing with the camera up to his eyes.
		And when they go down, the husband puts the camera down, and they all walk over, and they don't remember anything more about it.
		And they get feeling very odd and go home.
		Well, what I was able to do finally was to do hypnosis the next day with a husband who's very reluctant.
		And as he was taking the pictures, he was feeling a sense of dread.
		And then all of a sudden, he said they're going up, and he was in tears.
		He said, they don't even look surprised.
		They were frozen.
		So again, I asked a little leading question deliberately because it was what I call a false lead.
		I said, I imagine you turn and call for help.
		He said, I can't move.
		I can't do anything.
		He's holding the camera up to his eyes.
		And I said, well, I assume some people come over to you after a while, see if you're all right.
		He said, I don't think anyone can see me.
		Now, I have cases like this.
		And, of course, his recollections totally intersected with his wife.
		They were very, very frightened people by what happened.
		Now, here we have a talk about your situation of dimensions.
		I'll try to figure this out physically.
		You have an invisible man at that point with an invisible camera and invisible film taking a photograph of invisible people, and yet what turns out on the film is actual picture of the surroundings with the invisible people not in them.
		Now, I have no idea what, and I'll just give you one more example.
		These are some of the things incidentally that we're going to be covering when we have the conference or something like this.
		It's just hitting a high point here.
		But a woman who I've worked with who's had abduction experiences, Katerine Wilson, got off a plane in Chicago at O'Hare, and she went into the restroom right after she got off the plane and then went over to wash her hands in the sink.
		And it was one of those sinks which has an electric eye, which activates the water.
		She puts her hands down, nothing happens.
		And she had squirted out the soap on her hands.
		She waited, she felt, well, it was broken or something, and she waits until somebody moves away from the sink next to her and moves over to there, puts her hands down, and still nothing happens.
	She tries three or four different places in the same reaction, and then she walks over to a baby changing table, which had a little sink, and you could manually turn on the water, which she did, and she washed the soap off.
	But she got this very strange feeling that something was very, very, very wrong, and she walked over to a young woman and faced her.
	The woman was standing there talking to her something.
	And she said, can you see me?
	And there was no response whatsoever.
	And when she went outside, she called her husband to tell him that she had gotten back, and he said she had arrived in Chicago okay.
	And he said, well, your plane must have been a couple hours late.
	And she said, no, it just got in.
	And he said, well, that's impossible.
	It's supposed to get in by 3 o'clock.
	It's now 5 o'clock.
	There's a situation of missing time in the middle of O'Hare airport where apparently her physical presence, which was totally natural to her, she looks in the mirror, was unable to affect the electric eye connections on the water faucets.
	There's a lot more to that case, but I have other cases, too, which would suggest that when the abduction is taking place, and this is why they can take place in the middle of the city, any place, and cannot be seen.
	Like the big one in New York City that you have told us about.
	Exactly.
	And the one in New York City is an exception to this.
	They deliberately wanted it to be seen.
	That's the very interesting thing about it.
	The case that I wrote about at Witness, which is of extraordinary importance because it shows an alien desire to affect actually what political figures believe and understand about their reality.
	But I think that the fact that it was seen is a deliberate choice on the part of the UFO occupants.
	What we're looking at in these other cases is that somehow something kicks in.
	Who knows what the technology is or what the issue is as different dimensions or something.
	But at some point, the individuals are rendered invisible.
	As are the UFO occupants.
	The lady in the bathroom, one would presume had somebody been there with a camera, she wouldn't have been in that photo.
	Yes, exactly.
	I think that the fact that the electric eye activators on the water faucets were operating very much like a camera in a certain sense.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		There was nothing in front of them to break the beam.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No physicality.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That really gives some cleanness then to this whole interventionality argument.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know exactly what aspect of it because obviously we're talking about things that are so highly theoretical, it's very hard.
		And I'm not a theoretically inclined person.
		I'm not a big speculator, as you might guess.
		I try to pick this up by the human side, what happens to people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess objectively then I would ask you, do you give equal credence to the possibility that these are dimensional beings or dimensional shifts that are occurring equal to they came from Zeta reticuli or some other system through space and a lot of time?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, in a certain sense, I just tend to avoid making a guess.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I don't discard any theory here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's equally possible.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, my issue really is that we don't know exactly what we mean by either of those statements very clearly.
		No, we do.
		And one of the really sad things is the late Scott Rogo made a quite unfortunate remark when he said that he didn't think that the UFO's occupants were extraterrestrial because, he said, they're not doing what extraterrestrials would do.
		As soon as you say that, you sort of stated the problem.
		He didn't know what extraterrestrial would be like or would do or what.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He didn't happen to go on and define that, did he?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		No, he didn't.
		And of course, it just shows to me how sort of endlessly complicated it is to speculate on these issues.
		It's like trying to discuss what other colors they may have on different planets that we haven't yet seen.
		It's a highly complex series of hypotheses that we have to consider.
		I leave that to the physicists and to others, and I go about my business working with human beings and trying to help them through whatever they've been through.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do we get, you live in New York, how do we get, say, let's take the New York Times as an example.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do we get these publications or major networks to begin taking seriously what we know is really serious?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think all of us have been slowly eroding over the years the assurance that these publications have that such things have been ridiculed and dumped.
		I feel cautiously optimistic that somehow or other, the public, just by what the polls show us, the public understands that something is going on out there which has not been explained successfully by the debunkers or the government or anybody else.
		I think that's a given.
		The public knows that.
		I therefore think that as long as the public is curious, that we're going to have mainstream media actually taking a more thoroughly objective look as time goes on.
		It seems to happen.
		It's happened to me.
		And oddly enough, I mean, this very week, I'll be doing some, well, actually, cable television interviews tomorrow.
		We're doing this program as we speak.
		And I'll be receiving NIPON television on the coming morning to do a taping for a show they're doing in Japan.
		And then I'll be appearing on an NBC special, I believe, the 17th of the month.
		It's a lot of media coming up in a short period of time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At the NBC confirmation.
		Yes, exactly.
		Well, you're right.
		I think that has a chance of being a pretty good show.
		And Japanese television, for some reason, and maybe you have some insight here, for years now has been taking this whole thing a lot more seriously than the American media.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		No, absolutely.
		You know, Art, it's a rather funny thing.
		I got a call a year or so ago from a reporter from the Manchester Guardian in England.
		And the Guardian is, of course, one of England's most prestigious and, relatively speaking, highbrow course papers.
		And he said, Mr. Hopkins, I'm calling because I'm curious to know if you can answer a question.
		Why do you think the mainstream media is becoming more interested in this subject?
		And I said, well, you're calling me.
		Why don't you answer the question yourself?
		Why did you pick up the phone to call me?
		Because it's extremely interesting.
		Slowly but surely, if one person, one media source expresses an interest, other people get interested Too, even to ask why the first one was interested to begin with.
		So I think we're making progress.
		I think it's slow.
		I think it's going to be obviously very gradual.
		But having been in this since having been paying attention to it since I had my UFO sighting 35 years ago, actually, 1964, in those 35 years, I mean, it's been an unbelievable shift in media paying attention to this.
		And I feel cautiously optimistic.
		But still, the New York Times, the good old gray New York Times, just simply cannot bring itself to accept the possibility something may be going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, chuckle as they may in the audience, and though I present a lot of material that may or may not be true on my programs, I have a very open forum here.
		I am very much a skeptic, with the exception of one thing.
		I've had one very close encounter sighting myself.
		And you cannot have that about four years ago.
		You can't have that happen to you without it changing your life in really measurable, serious ways.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		No doubt about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Same thing happened to me.
		So other than that, other than what I saw with my very own eyes and my wife saw, thankfully, at the same time, about everything else, I'm skeptical.
		And I just, if I can't put my hand on it, I can't declare it to be so, but I feel it, and I know something's going on.
		And I guess that's about where you are.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, exactly.
		Incidentally, in my list of media, I just did the Roseanne Barr show on Monday.
		So there's one more thing that I forgot to list.
		And, of course, shows like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm curious.
		She's been after me to come on.
		How did she treat you?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I liked her.
		I found her to be very genuine and funny.
		And obviously, she's, as a comedian, she'll sort of take something funny and play with it a bit.
		But she seemed genuinely interested.
		And there was an extremely funny remark at the beginning.
		She says whatever comes into her mind in a real way, not just trying to be outrageous or something.
		But an abductee, a young man named Jesse, who I. Okay, we're at the bottom of the hour, so hold that story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll be right back.
		Bud Hopkins is here.
		Time is short.
		This is Dreamland.
		I almost interrupted myself to say, all right, back to Bud Hopkins.
		That's machines for you, Bud.
		The talk show mind hears a second of silence and jumps in automatically.
		I'm suffering with that.
		Well, all right, so this is a relatively new phenomenon.
		This whole disappearing thing, invisibility, in effect, you're the first to bring this to my attention.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's something that actually David Jacobs, I think, was the first person to make this public in a lecture he gave perhaps eight or nine years ago out of Santa Barbara.
		It's something that I think many, many investigators have suspected.
		But until we got this evidence via the photograph and the fact that the water faucets would not work with their electric eye, beam, whatever, that's sort of physical, mechanical evidence that such things are happening.
		But we've had over the years so many cases of people seeing UFO occupants or abductees or whatnot just disappear before your very eyes.
		And we never understood whether that was just the person's perception as if their imaging was somehow damaged or reality, or whether they simply did vanish.
		And I think we have to face the idea that such things do happen.
		I have a case, too, which is not investigated at all, but it's just a report.
		But it's just intriguing in this context that a woman and her daughter told me about this, was driving through some very dense fog, going very slowly, and they crashed into something which they could not see and stopped the car.
		And when they got out to look, the hood of the car was dented in in a very perfect curving line as if something that was bulging and curving had been sitting there that they had run up more or less underneath and dented their car in, so they couldn't see it as if it was in fact a craft sitting there.
		But I think we've got a lot of suggestive accounts like this that do buttress this idea, at least, that we have to consider this invisibility issue.
		And I hate to even use that word.
		It sounds so science fictiony and so forth.
		But we're facing a technology that's beyond anything that we have ever run into here on Earth.
		And it sounds off the wall, but of course, if it's going on, excuse me, if we are dealing with some non-human intelligence, then the sky's the limit in terms of what may be happening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I'd like to try a couple of quick calls.
		First time, call our line.
		You're on the air with Bud Hopkins.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Sumter, South Carolina.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome.
unidentified		Thank you very much.
unidentified		I was in Okinawa and I was in the Air Force, and I have fond memories of Yakena Port.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we have a lot in common, then.
unidentified		Thank you, sir.
		For Bud, I was thinking about the kinds of things with the alien abductions or tinkering, this kind of thing.
		It seems to me that there's something really funny going on.
		We have this missing link type of thing that everybody keeps talking about that scientists can't explain.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		In an evolutionary sense, you mean?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good point.
unidentified		But it keeps getting stronger.
		We keep getting smarter.
		Our progression intellectually and scientifically keeps increasing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exponentially.
unidentified		Exactly.
unidentified		And I was just kind of curious if you had any comments on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let's put it into a very distinct question.
		But there are many, many, many people who think that in our evolutionary progress, or perhaps lack of it way back when, there was, like, as in 2001, some sort of intervention at some point.
		What are your thoughts on that?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's certainly possible.
		I would never discount that at all.
		I'm afraid that I'm outside my area of expertise, though, in terms of the issues involving human evolution.
		I know that recently there were some discoveries made, which were quite widely written about, of something that does, I think, almost a whole skeleton of a creature that did seem to be something of a missing link.
		So perhaps the missing parts are getting filled in.
		I don't really know.
		But there'd be no reason to think that beings of a higher intelligence who are able to do all kinds of genetic engineering mightn't have helped us along at some point.
		I just don't know enough about the evolution of man here in a technical sense to have a firm opinion about it, but certainly possible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for your question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was actually a very good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've always been curious, and I too think there is at least the possibility, certainly even within mainstream science, with that period of time missing at such an opportune moment in our history.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, and of course, I believe it was Crick who posited the idea that we had been artificially seeded by DNA that happened to be floating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then there's situation.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And, of course, there's situation.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		There are all sorts of theories and areas of evidence and so on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then there's one more thing, bud.
		There's one other time that's very curious in our history recent.
		That, of course, being 1947, 1948.
		When you look at the whole Corso story, and I think I spent more hours interviewing the late Colonel Corso than anybody in the media, you've got to look at that time as a bit of an exponential jump in technological capability.
		I mean, there's no question about it, the transistor, all of that's a little foggy when you start looking into Bell Labs.
		The jump we took right after the alleged crash at Roswell, the idiotic performance of the Air Force in recently trying to debunk Roswell.
		When you look at all of that, there's a kind of a suspicious little period right around the alleged Roswell crash that should be telling us or may be telling us something as well.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, if we have wreckage crash sauces, and it is my personal belief that the evidence persuades me we do, and if we have scientists who have heads on their shoulders, and we certainly do have such scientists, they did come up with the atomic bomb and all kinds of other things that helped us win World War II, for better or for worse, I should say, in terms of what they've come up with.
		One has to assume that the minute that material was recovered at Roswell or wherever, it was taken into a closed area and it was researched from one end to the other.
		And who knows what sorts of things might have come from it.
		My problem with Colonel Corso's story is that he is basically saying nothing was done until 1961 until they gave him a cardboard box full of stuff rattling around.
		But I don't think that happened, frankly.
		He may have been involved in something along the way, but the point is by 1961, the research would have been incessant.
		I mean, when you think of Vannevar Bush, who would presumably have been involved in it and a number of other, absolutely top-flight scientists, every scientist in the world who had the necessary expertise and clearance would have wanted to get into the act and given up everything else to work on that alien technology.
		And I suspect that that probably did happen, but I don't think that Colonel Corso was centrally involved because I don't think 1961 means anything as a date.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Perhaps not, but 1947 may.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I think, absolutely.
		You know, when there's a plane crash nowadays, like the TWA flight and so forth, every little scrap of that plane is dug up from the ocean bottom and brought into a giant hangar and reconstructed.
		The place is locked up and people devote the rest of their lives to trying to put the damn thing together and figure out what happened.
		I suspect that happened in 1947, 48, 49, 50.
		And by the time we got to Colonel Corso in 1961, I think he would be, if he was involved, I think he would have been a footnote in the whole thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That may well be so, but even when it comes to our terrestrial aircraft, I would remind you that TWA Flight 800 was reconstructed in the way you just suggested.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		People are still devoting their lives to it, and we still don't have real answers.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		No, there are many theories that have emerged, but nothing, that's one of the really strange things.
		But it happens as an automatic thing.
		We just do that, and I'm certain.
		Can you imagine in 1947, if we had gotten a hold of whatever model Russian MiG was around in 1947, how that would have been swirled away and studied from beginning to end?
		And I think that happened with the crashed UFO, the craft themselves, the equipment, the broken pieces, and so forth.
		And I'm certain that there wouldn't have been a scientist in the United States if he'd heard about it who wouldn't have wanted to be in on the study of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Another example, Bud, we fight endlessly about what might or might be at the Sidonia region of Mars, despite the recent awful photographs rendered up by NASA.
		We fight about that, and that's on Mars so far away.
		Off the island of Okinawa, we have ruins that scientists right now are tearing their hair out about.
		They can't decide about something under the water, accessible, whether it's a natural formation or whether it is something that man did long ago.
		They fight about it.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		They don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's right here, much less on Mars.
		Right.
		So I don't know about that.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are mysteries and mysteries and mysteries.
		One of the amusing things, I was on this Roseanne program.
		A skeptic appeared, and actually a rather nice man.
		Roseanne, when he was poo-pooing the whole UFO phenomenon, Roseanne said something to this effect.
		She said, but wouldn't it be more interesting and nicer to think that there are mysteries out there that we haven't solved and that something like this could possibly be happening that could engage us and engage our minds and imagination and curiosity?
		She said, isn't that better?
		And he said, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He said, no?
		He said, no.
		See, I was like Joe Nicol not listening to myself.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		It was quite amazing to me that anybody would say that.
		And I think mysteries such as the one you just described in Okinawa and so forth are extremely intriguing.
		And of course, I mean, there are mysteries in all sorts of areas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's a nice new one for you.
		I don't know if you've heard about it, bud, but they've uncovered what appears to be an ancient circle in Miami.
		Have you heard about this one yet?
		No.
		No.
		They tore down a building, ready to put up a $100 million project, and archaeologists right in the middle of the building they tore down have discovered the circle that approximates exactly what's at Stonehenge.
		And there's a big fight going on in Miami now about whether to plow it down and concrete over it, move it, save it.
		What they're going to do with it, they have no idea.
		But when you get time, look into it.
		It's absolutely fascinating.
		We've done several shows on it, and we've got them delayed a little bit, but the bulldozers are ready.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Right.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I can see the battle between the people who are extremely curious and interested and the archaeologists in preserving it and the poor man that's bought the property and trying to build one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right, of course.
		But you see, the same paradigms that are ready to collapse if there's a revelation regarding UFOs and whoever they are are challenged by something so old that it simply cannot be explained.
		The same exact paradigms, religious, institutional paradigms, are all challenged.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		That's true, but there's a major difference.
		If it happened a long time ago, or elsewhere on another planet or something, Mars or whatever, if it happened then, that's really extremely exciting and it does shift the paradigm, as you just explained.
		However, it isn't going on now in the way that the UFO phenomenon is going on, and this is something that's affecting men, women, and children daily, nightly in the United States and around the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but if there was once a technological civilization on Earth that came and went, the important part here is went.
		Yeah, right.
		Then that means that the same possibility exists for us.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Oh, exactly.
		But the reality of this being so, this is why I'm so involved in working with abductees.
		This is something that happened last night to somebody.
		I have actually received phone calls two or three times from people who had just recovered from an abduction experience maybe five minutes before.
		And in a way, it's very hard for me to get quite as exercised about something, you know, I mean, even Stonehenge with all of its beauty and its enormous mystery.
		And I've reproduced it in a little book I did called Sacred Spaces, having to do with my own sculpture, my own temples that I make, and temples around the world.
		Even though I'm just totally drawn, fascinated by that, the idea that I'm dealing with human beings going through this stuff right here and now, and as we speak, there's probably people in this country right this moment who have been taken.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No doubt about it.
		Bud, we're about out of time.
		East of the Rockies, do you have a very quick question, I hope?
unidentified		Yes, I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
unidentified		Hi, Bud.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Jack.
unidentified		This is a quick question.
		This is Olias from Atlanta.
		We always hear about how traumatic these abduction experiences are, and understandably so.
		I was wondering if in all your years of research and investigation, you've come across anybody who has come away from abduction with a positive feeling or any sense of happiness from it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a good question.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		That's a good question.
		Almost every abduction experience involves a range of emotions.
		People are often absolutely terrified, and they can be almost instantly calmed down.
		They feel wonderful.
		They can even feel almost as if they're a little high.
		And then they could go through anger.
		They can go through a lot of emotions in the same experience.
		So it isn't as simple as I had a good experience, I did not have a bad experience.
		All the experiences are emotionally extremely complicated.
		And I think it's, again, trying to push it into the good guys or bad guys' particular polarity.
		And it doesn't really go there.
		But the experiences are intrinsically complicated emotionally.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sorry, Bud.
		As always, you've done a wonderful program.
		We're out of time, but we do have enough time for you to give any contact information you would like to give or upcoming event information.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, I appreciate that.
		We are doing our Insurance Foundation conference here April 10th, and people can contact to get information about it by calling 212-645-5278.
		Leave their name on the answering machine.
		Or they can write, if they've had experiences, to IS, just that's intrude dissemination, if box 30233, 30233, New York, New York, and the zip is 10011.
		And if people are interested in any of the books that I mentioned, that's called by calling 1-800-905-8367.
		And they can get information about ordering the books.
		But I would be very interested in hearing from people who feel that they may have had similar experiences similar to the ones we've discussed.
		And I want to thank you, Art, very, very much for, as usual, an extremely intelligent and interesting series of questions and discussion.
		I appreciate very much what you've been doing here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Bud.
		Good night.
		We'll do it again.
		Take care, my friend.
		As Bud Hopkins, folks, at the top of his game, no question about it.
		I'm Mark Bell, and for tonight, that's it from an area near Dreamland.
		Good night.
		This has been Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience not easily and or neatly put in a box.
		Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not math.
		Yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.

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