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Jan. 6, 1999 - Art Bell

02:41:17

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Borderland Science Research - Michael Theroux

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01:02:58

michael theroux

01:04:48

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		I've got my problems and my favorite light.
		We got a one thing, we gotta be it right.
		There ain't no danger when you don't want.
		We fucking leave it now, but we can be who we are.
		We fear the world.
		We think all of it doesn't broaden them.
		Wonder baby for the faith to dump the cry and shame.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I just don't get it.
		I'm falling in love with this song all over again.
		Frankie Valley.
		Anyway, I'm Art Bell, and here we go.
unidentified		From the Kingdom of Nive.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
		From East of the Rockies, call Art at 1-800-825-5033.
		West of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico at 1-800-618-8255.
		First-time callers may reach Art at Area Code 702-727-1222.
		And you may fax ART at Area Code 702-727-8499.
		Please limit your faxes to one or two pages.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
		Now again, here's Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, you want to see a really cool picture?
		You know those glass globes that you turn upside down, then there's a snowstorm on something?
		Somebody sent me a wide 2K version of one, and I just took a picture of it on my webcam.
		Go take a look.
		It's really, really cool.
unidentified		We take pressure and we throw it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Michael Thoreau is coming up in a moment.
		I'll tell you more about him in a second.
		Tomorrow night is going to be open lines, and I have no idea what we're going to do.
		Who cares?
		We'll have fun.
		Then Friday night, in order of their appearance, Stephen Bassett, Paradigm Research Group, Godzilla Joseph Firmich, who had a lot to do with releasing the MJ-12 documents and new ones.
		Dr. Stephen Greer of CSETI.
		By the way, ABC has yanked their story, good for them, on CSETI being some sort of Millennium Cult.
		That's me.
		I'm the Millennium Cult, MM.
		Millennium Master.
		the roman numerals mmr 2000 i mean this is irresistible so i'm going to make a I know that the press is going to try and paint me into a corner of being a Millennium Guru this year.
		There's going to be a lot of that in the press, I bet.
		So I'm going to make it easy for them.
		I'm going to have a black cape with MM on it.
		I'm going to continually give out secret numbers every night.
		And I don't wait.
		I'm already getting an awful lot of faxes of people who think they figured out the secret numbers for tonight, which I may repeat.
		So Stephen Greer will be here, Dr. Greer, Richard C. Hoagland, you know Richard.
		Peter Gerston of CAWES.
		He's been an active guy lately, I'll tell you.
		William J. Burns, publisher of UFO magazine, co-author of Day After Roswell.
		James, and James, I apologize.
		His last name is E-R-J-A-P-E-C.
		And he has something to do with the Society for Planetary SETI Research.
		Jim Mars, Alien Agenda.
		This is disclosure 99.
		It's going to be Friday night, Saturday morning.
		It's going to begin in the first hour of the program because we've got a lot to do and go through the entire five hours.
		So those will be the guests on Friday night, Saturday morning.
		So there you have it.
		The basic lineup coming up in a moment.
		Michael Thoreau.
		And, boy, do we have a lot of interesting stuff to talk about.
		All right, let's see.
		Michael Thoreau began working with Borderland Sciences Research Foundation.
		Not about you, Michael.
		BSRF in 1986, not long after a four-year tour with the UMC, that's the USMC Marine Corps as a radar technician.
		Became director of Borderland Science Research Foundation in 1995.
		Nearly 100 published articles and research reports.
		Several published manuscripts.
		Currently editor-in-chief of the Journal of Borderland Research, BSRF's quarterly, editor and publisher of several books published by that foundation, Director of Research and Development, at BSRF.
		And again, he has done research into all kinds of things, and we'll kind of move through them one at a time.
		Welcome to the program, Michael.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Art.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Welcome to be on your show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, great to have you.
		I should have had you a long time ago.
		What actually called my attention to you was the whole Stevens thing, and I plan on spending a very small amount of time on that right now, but I guess I've got to, it's one of those things like you've got to cover it.
		You put up a website for the now infamous Stevens at some point.
		I guess maybe you'd like to tell us a story, just briefly, if you would, of how and why you got involved with Stevens.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, Robert Stevens had contacted me some time ago.
		I believe it was in late November.
		And he started talking about all the things that everybody Knows that he's been talking about, and some of them sounded quite interesting.
		And at one point I said, you know, how come you don't have a website?
		He said, he didn't have the time, and I said, I'd be willing to put up a website for him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You are a webmaster, then?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm Millennium Master.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, I put up the website for him, and we put up a number of things on that website that he wanted me to put up there.
		Several things that I didn't put up there because I didn't feel they were appropriate.
		But in any case, after his show with you, that was December 30th, many people started to wonder, well, what's up with this guy?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Any idea, out of curiosity, Michael, why it took my program for people to start to wonder?
		In other words, my understanding is that Mr. Stevens was out doing other programs and pretty active on the internet and other radio shows for like 80 days.
		80 days, that's a long time.
		Yes, he was.
		And nobody asked any questions until he got to me.
unidentified		How come?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, I did ask some questions, but, you know, I think he was very good at answering the questions.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		And unfortunately, I believe Peter Gerston mentioned, you know, when someone like this comes along who claims to be from NASA, you know, makes a lot of claims like this, we immediately start listening because we think they might have some kind of information that no one else has.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, just because he signs an email signature at the bottom, Robert Stevens, NASA contractor, something like that.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we did, you know, when he sent me that information, I did check him out a little bit, and some of the things I found seemed to be okay, and I had spoken to him on the phone, and everything seemed to check out at first.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		But after your show with him, we did some more checking into him, and there were actually many people that deserve credit for that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There are, yes.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		And we found out that, no, he was not a Navy SEAL.
		We don't know for sure at this point if he ever worked, if he worked for NASA, what he does.
		There were several things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, all he really claimed to be was not even a contractor for NASA, but when you got right down to it, he worked for some companies, he said, that were contractors for NASA.
		That would make him a subcontractor to them, like McDonnell Douglas or whoever else he mentioned.
		I forget.
		So that'd be right, wouldn't it?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		As a matter of fact, I looked at Kennedy Space Center's website and looked at the contractor list, and I couldn't find him anywhere on there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then there were a number of other little tip-offs like the newspaper that he supposedly communicated with in Montana that began all of this and the publisher who said he told Peter Gerson, "Well, I didn't talk to him." And then there were several other little tip-offs, I guess, things that simply...
		And this is what I would like to ask you about, Michael.
		It's like he just gave it up at some point.
		The evidence had mounted so high that he just said, that's it.
		You've got me.
		I'm a fraud.
		Everything I told you was a lie.
		And, you know, that's, you've got to admit, that's really a puzzling end to it.
		You know, it's just like, everything, yeah, you got me.
unidentified		I'm a fraud.
unidentified		It is.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		It's very strange.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have any thoughts on it?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, I spoke to him on the phone after I came up with all of this information.
		I asked him several questions.
		He didn't deny that, as a matter of fact, he tried to say that most of the things about himself were still true.
		But he said, well, this is what, you know, if that's the case, take down my website.
		Because I told him I'd have to take it down because none of these things were panning out to be true.
		And he said, okay, call me a fraud, a liar, whatever.
		That's that.
		And it is very strange.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Well, it was a ripple.
		And I think, you know, that by the time we're reviewing 1999 at the end of the year, it's not even going to be thought about, or at best, it'll be a little asterisk at the bottom of a page on the year.
		So I guess that's done.
		I've got other things I would like to talk about.
		And the first on the list, I really, really have been interested.
		I was told a story, which I would like to tell you.
		You need to tell me if it's true or false or what you know regarding the possibility of consciousness at some level of plants.
		I mean, this is something you've done some research on, and the story I heard is as follows.
		There are several scientists garbed in white coats, and they have a plant there, or several plants, I don't know, and they have electrodes hooked up to them.
		And so they're able to monitor something or another about the plant.
		I'm sure you can get specific.
		And these various white guys in coats come and go, and they watch the graph, and the plant is not thinking, I shouldn't really say that plants think.
		This plant doesn't seem to be reacting in any particularly unusual way.
		Then one of the guys in a white coat comes in, takes a head of lettuce, and chops it square in half, and the plant goes on the screen, berserk.
		And that scientist then leaves, and the scientist and the other white coats come and go, and the plant's okay again, thinking everything's okay.
		Then this time they bring in the fellow who chopped the lettuce in half, and the plant apparently recognizes him in some way and goes berserking him.
		Now, that may be myth or that may be real.
		What do you have to say?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Actually, that is correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is, right?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		It is, certainly.
		You can actually see that.
		There was a movie made in 1974, 75 called The Secret Life of Plants after the book by Peter Tompkins and Christopher Bird that shows a number of amazing things about plants.
		And that was one of the demonstrations.
		And I believe it was done in Russia.
		And that story is absolutely correct.
		And it's on film.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's on film.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where can a body get a copy of that?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		I really don't know.
		Occasionally, one of the big TV channels runs the movie in its entirety, and you just have to wait for it to come on and record it or whatever.
		But I don't know who owns the rights to that film.
unidentified		Huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		How much, you know, first of all, is it not proper to talk about consciousness when you're referring to plants?
		I mean, that seems kind of a stretch.
		Consciousness, my God, that implies, to me, awareness of self.
		Yes?
unidentified		Well, yeah.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		You know, plants are very interesting in that respect.
		When you use the term consciousness, you know, there's a lot more involved than just simple reactions on a chart recorder.
		When you hook, you know, for instance, when you go through the experiment and you hook the plant up to the electronics and look at what's happening with the plant on the chart recorder, there's a lot of electrical explanations for that.
		But when you give the plant a certain stimulus or you give a plant some kind of emotion or something like that and see the reactions that it has at certain times, I mean, what else can you say is going on with that plant?
		I mean, we did about a four-year study with, basically what we were doing was recreating Cleve Baxter's original experiments from the 60s.
		And, you know, what he did was he was a polygraph specialist, and he had, you know, at one point decided, well, what if I hook a plant up to my polygraph and see what happens?
		And then he went on from there.
		Well, we recreated a lot of those experiments to see, you know, if there was anything to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you found a lot.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, we were just amazed at the reactions that plants had.
		Now, it's interesting about plants.
		Plants react like humans do.
		And this is something a lot of scientists or botanists will say, well, the plant is just reacting to its environment.
		It's not reacting to the stimulus of the person or, you know, watering the plant or doing things like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were you sure in your experiments that you were able to delineate between what you consider to be a reaction from the plant and some sort of ability of a human being to project something?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's kind of an interesting question.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, we did recreate the experiments that Baxter did, like I said, and one of those experiments was he had set up a plant and he set it on a timer and he actually left the room and he started thinking about something specifically at a specific time.
		He went back and saw that the plant had reacted to his thoughts at that specific time.
		He had recorded it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean to say from a distant location?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now we're not only talking about consciousness, but we're talking about mental it's a form of communication.
unidentified		another word we had you know i mean but not not even verbal i mean you're talking about Holy mackerel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How sure are you that these were valid experiments?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, like I said, we recreated them.
		And one of the things that we are very careful about in our research is, and one of the main things that we look for, is that the experiment can be reproducible.
		And we didn't just set up an experiment and say, oh, look, it happened again, just like it said in the book, and that's the end of it.
		We did the experiments over and over.
unidentified		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does that mean in your mind that we should, as human beings, change completely the way we consider plant life?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think so in a way.
		Obviously, there becomes a problem with the way that we treat plants as far as eating them.
		It becomes kind of a problem in your thinking in the future.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, yes, and no, we eat cows.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Steaks, hamburgers.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's not a problem if you have that.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		But, you know, vegetarians, for instance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Oh, vegetarians.
		Good point, Michael.
		Hold on.
		We are at the bottom of the hour.
		I hadn't thought about vegetarians.
		They are vegetarians.
unidentified		Why?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, because in many cases, not all cases, but in many cases, vegetarians don't want something that was once alive and sentient.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So yeah.
unidentified		Think about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Plants are alive and maybe, just maybe, they're sentience.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Don't wear that fat, whack it.
unidentified		With Fat Whacker.
		We'll be right back.
		Take his place on this trip.
		Just go on the edge.
		Take a free ride, take my place, up my seat, it's for free.
		I've worked like a slave for years, sweat so hard just to end my fears, not to end my life before that, but by now I know I should have run.
		To talk with Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye from east of the Rockies, dial 1-800-825-5033.
		West of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico, 1-800-618-8255.
		First-time callers may reach art at area code 702-727-1222.
		And you may call Art on the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
		To reach art from outside the U.S., first dial your access number to the USA.
		Then 800-893-0903.
		This is Coast to Coast AM from the Kingdom of Nye with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Borderlands Science Research Foundation's Michael Thoreau with an X is my guest.
unidentified		That must make it French.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I hadn't thought about vegetarians.
		Good heavens.
		What a thought.
		So, in other words, there is virtual genocide of carrots going on.
		There's murder of parsley.
		There's, it just, I mean, it would go on and on and on.
		Let me ask you this, Michael.
		Did anybody attempt to measure any output from a dead veggie?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, certainly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		There is no output.
		It depends on the type of apparatus you're using to measure the outputs from the plants.
		The most common one, and that would be like a polygraph, is to use a wheatstone bridge arrangement.
		Basically what you're doing there is you're putting a very small current and using the electrode or the plant leaf between the electrodes as a resistance in that bridge.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean you're virtually giving them electroshock therapy?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's very small, though.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Torturing plants.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, some people have said that to me.
unidentified		Have they, really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy.
		And so then you measure, in other words, you obviously detect that there is a resistance plant would put up, and so you measure its consistency and then measure its variation, and that is considered to be the reaction.
		Yes.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		So if you use a dead plant, basically it's...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Flatliner.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe that makes the vegetarians feel a little better, but it's still actually, I know it sounds ludicrous.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They'll probably send us both away for it, but if plants really are, in some manner or another, conscious, then we really do have to sort of rethink our relationship with them, don't we?
unidentified		Yeah.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		I would think so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But they'll sure put us away for saying that.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's not going to stop me from eating salad anytime soon, but even after doing all of those experiments, you know, I still don't have any problem eating plants.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, I don't have a problem eating hamburgers either.
		No problem at all.
		But I mean, it really is interesting, and I wonder if it simply relates to all living things.
		And that would be trees, plants, vegetables, the lowest form of animals and slugs to human beings.
		In other words, everything that lives.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		I would think so.
		I think they have, you know, when you talk about consciousness, I believe it's something we really don't understand.
		We can't look at it as consciousness in the same sense that we do about ourselves.
		It's a different form altogether.
		There's so much more that needs to be done as far as research into it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you had to make your best guess about how a plant would remember a mean scientist who cut a lettuce, chopped a lettuce in half, what would you call it?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		It's really hard to say.
		I could say I have no idea.
		I have read the many books by a doctor, Jagadus Chunder Bose, who in the 20s did a number of experiments with plants, plant response, things like this.
		And he felt that the plant had a nervous system of some sort.
		Of course, it was unlike humans, but that the nervous system of the plant was not only its nervous system, but its brain.
		He had his ideas about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the questions are then, here comes the scientist back in the room this time without chopping up anything.
		The plant reacts wildly, which means that somehow the plant understood it had a scent or it had a memory.
		I mean, this all sounds so crazy, but it has to be true.
		Do you suppose it's something as simple as a sensing of danger or a memory?
		It is memory of a sort, right?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, it could be.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		You know, many researchers that have worked with plants even say that they have emotions, too, that they'll fall into depressions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Happy plants, sad plants?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		And I guess a lot of that is very subjective because we don't know a lot about plants, and botanists don't seem to look into those areas of research with plants.
		So we really don't know exactly why these things are happening, but some researchers feel that they're very in tune with the plants.
		And of course, you can look at a number of researchers who would say, by talking to your plants, this makes them grow better, etc.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's really so much we don't know about our own planet, isn't there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, we are talking about venturing into space and other planets, and we don't know a whole lot about our own.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, that's very true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Y2K.
		Boy, I'm telling you, I am inundated right now, inundated with information on Y2K.
		Every other email or fax to me is about Y2K, something that's already gone wrong, or mobilization of forces in Canada and the U.S. I have a story tonight about mobilization of the National Guard up in Washington State for this.
		I've had Gary North on the show, Ed Jordan on the show.
		I'm going to have others on the show.
		Might as well have your take on it.
		It's one of the things I guess you have something to say on.
		What do you think about Y2K?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think people get the wrong impression about what I have to say about it.
		I don't think it's going to be as big of a problem as many people are making it out to be.
		Uh-huh.
		But I will state, and I should probably put something on my website to this effect, that I'm not saying that people shouldn't be prepared.
		People should be prepared for any possibility of disaster and things like this.
		I'm quite prepared myself.
		I live in earthquake country here, and I've been through some big ones.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		You have to be prepared.
		But I don't, you know, looking at the data, and I've talked to several people.
		I've talked to embedded systems designers that have been in the business for many years.
		I've talked to power industry technicians.
		I have talked with programmers.
		Not too long ago, a programmer from Microsoft called me, a pretty high-in-the-ranks programmer from Microsoft called me and told me that I'd written a fine article on it.
unidentified		And, you know, there's a lot of people that, you know, really don't know.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		In fact, if I was to make a prediction, like if I was to make a prediction for your show, all I could say about Y2K is that it's coming.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's definitely coming all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But, I mean, I think you probably heard Gary North.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And or maybe Ed Jordan.
		And their predictions, of course, are pretty apocalyptic regarding Y2K.
		But could it happen?
		In other words, what Gary North says, and he discusses a kind of a cascading effect of Y2K, that even if everything doesn't go down, if enough goes down, there'll be a cascading effect.
		And that what about the rest of the world?
		Even if we get in fairly decent shape here, we are connected, as you well know, internationally by computers for all kinds of economic reasons and more worldwide.
		There's a lot of countries out there that aren't even close to ready.
		How about that aspect of it?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think you'll see, like you've said, I think you'll see problems all throughout the year.
		And it really comes down to a people problem.
		As far as the technology is concerned, if things go down 1100 or 112000, all over the world, I think people are going to be working to get them back up again.
		Whether or not they have to, you know, reset the dates on their machines 11 years behind, or they, you know, there are many ways to go about, you know, fixing the problem as it comes.
		Of course, many people are indeed burying their head in the sand about this and just waiting to see what happens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do you think that, you know, I've been talking about it for a year, making sort of a big deal out of it for about a year now, and when January 1st of 99 came, all of a sudden every news organization from here to wherever you care to consider got on Y2K like somebody threw a switch.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's, the countdown is getting narrower and narrower, so, and it's becoming a big topic.
		Everybody's jumping on it.
		A lot of people have, a lot of big companies have spent a lot of money on it.
		People are starting to take notice, and people want to know what's going to happen.
		So, I mean, you're just going to see an escalation of articles and people coming out and talking about it, and I understand there's even going to be some Hollywood productions about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think might happen to the Internet?
		You're pretty Internet savvy.
		You put up websites and stuff.
		What do you think will happen on the Internet, if anything?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		You know, the Internet isn't one big thing.
		It's a number of machines all over the world.
		Some of them may go down.
		As far as routing, you know, the way things route to different places, that could be a problem.
		If one machine goes down in the...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In the chain.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, in the chain, that could be a big problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, that happens to us now occasionally with just breakdowns and major junction points on the Internet, and all of a sudden everything sort of comes to a grinding halt for a while.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it happens all the time.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		And that's an interesting point, too, because you know that come the year 2000, anything that goes wrong with your computer is going to be blamed on Y2K.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		That's exactly right.
		It's like if you've got a ham operator in your neighborhood.
		I discovered this when I first got my license when I was very young.
		And you put an antenna up.
		Anybody who gets any interference on their television for any reason comes and bangs on your door.
		And it blames you because you've got an antenna.
		Right.
		So it's kind of the same sort of thing.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're right about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And there will be computer crashes during the year, and people will be going nuts saying, damn Y2K got me, and really it was just a hard drive that went south or something.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I made the analogy some time ago about the Michelangelo virus scare, and the same thing happened there.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		And anything that happened on the date that that virus was supposed to become active, anything that happened to anyone's computers would have been blamed on that virus.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you know what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I got that damn virus twice.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		You did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, twice.
unidentified		Twice.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Twice.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, I never had that one.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		And as a matter of fact, until about three weeks ago, I never had a virus infection.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		on my machine but after printing that fact someone was kind enough to send me one so in other words you published the fact that you've never had a virus and they and so now you've got one.
unidentified		Well, I did have.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		I took care of it real quick.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		I'm definitely prepared for that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, your position on Y2K is you don't think it's going to be as bad as advertised.
unidentified		However, you encourage people to be prepared.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		That's pretty much my take.
		I think that people will rally to fix the problems that need to be fixed.
		A good example of that is someone, the story has circulated over and over about someone going into a pharmacy using a credit card, and the system went down.
		And it went down throughout the whole chain of pharmacies.
		But they said, and it took 30 minutes to get that system back up.
		And I said to myself, well, it only took 30 minutes.
		That's pretty good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's pretty good.
		You know, what Gary says is that when you look at the amount of code that has to be rewritten and you look at the number of embedded chips that would have to be replaced, even if they went to work on this like the Manhattan Project between now and then, it's long ago too late.
		I take it you don't subscribe to that or do you think there is something to that?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		I do agree partially to that.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		For instance, if everybody decides they're going to have to rewrite code, there is a website, and I have a link to it on my site, called the Y2K Immunity Site.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Immunity?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And what this person proposed was that you set the dates back on your computers to 11 years, which will give you the same day and date as it is in 2000.
		You will have a problem with the leap year at that point, but it will give you the same day and date.
		Your computer will continue to function properly if you have any worries about it.
		And then you write a subroutine that ages the data as it comes out of the machine.
		You have to coordinate that.
		So it's a lot less code rewriting.
		The only problem I have with that solution is that if it indeed gives the user 11 years to rewrite the code that they have, they'll probably wait until the last six months of that 11 years to fix it again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're right.
		So that would just, it would postpone the problem.
		But what about embedded chips?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, like I said, I've talked to embedded systems designers in Silicon Valley, several of them.
		I have received emails from embedded systems designers.
		And they, you know, basically they're saying, look, if you have any embedded systems problems, bring them to us.
		We'll fix them.
		And as of yet, no one has found an embedded systems problem.
		I've looked at equipment.
		Now think about this.
		I was thinking about this earlier.
		If you have a VCR that has an embedded system in it, and those things, they do have a date function in them so that you can watch your favorite programs later, record them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, I've got to tell you, I got an email from a guy who tried it, and he suggested others don't.
		It was an older VCR, granted, but he set the date to, you know, December 31st, 1999, let it roll over, and his VCR locked up solid.
		No eject, no play, no anything.
		I mean, it just flat locked up.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		I would sure like to see that because I have tested old VCRs, new VCRs.
		I've tested anything that I, any piece of equipment that had a date function in it.
		And several of them have date functions.
		And I have yet to see any one of them malfunction.
		As a matter of fact, most of the VCRs now will roll over at the year 2006 or 2008.
		And what they do when they roll over is they roll over back to the original date or the starting date that is comes up when you power it up.
		Right.
		But they still continue to function.
		And I have yet to see anything.
		And I have asked people, I said, if you can find something, if you can find a specific piece of equipment that does malfunction or ceases to work, please let me know and let me see the details on it because I haven't seen anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Power grids.
		Now, we've had some massive, massive power failures.
		For example, the Western Zero, the U.S., Canada, and Mexico, parts of Mexico, have gone down because of one stinking little mistake either in Idaho or at some small plant somewhere.
		I always thought the whole purpose of the grid, the power grid, was to, kind of like submarine doors, watertight doors that close, cut off a problem and not allow it to bring down the whole grid, which is basically designed to share power.
		So when we come back from the break, if we could, I would like to ask you about the power grid, because without power, what have you got?
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
		I'm Art Bell, and we will be right back.
unidentified		Words of love, so soft and tender won't win a girl's heart anymore.
		If you love her, then you must send her somewhere where she's never been before.
		Morning presents, morning gaze.
		Get you where you want to go.
		Birds of love, something can you walk with you now.
		Thank you.
		Listen to it, watch the sun rise.
		To talk with Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nigh, from east of the Rockies, dial 1, 800-825-5033, 1-800-825-5033.
		West of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico, 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		Now again, here's Art Bell.
		Here I can say it, you will never break the jam of bridges.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not breaking chains, that's very important.
		We're going to talk about the chain they call the power grid here in a second.
		to chain seems like you take one link out and they all go down like Anyway.
unidentified		The End Back to Michael Perot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Michael, the power grid, we had some really impressive power failures a couple years ago, you know, where the whole western North America went out of power because one little stinky power station somewhere in Idaho, or in another case in California, had a problem and they all went down like dominoes.
		So we know that can happen because it happened.
		So the question is, a reasonable person would conclude that out of the thousands of power dispensing facilities, some number of them are going to go down with Y2K.
		That's reasonable to conclude.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Like I said, I've talked to technicians in the power industry, and they don't believe that's going to be the case.
		And I think many other people have talked to them, and they've given them the same answer.
		That's just not going to happen.
		But with the recent power outages and the strange explanations that we've been given for them, I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No kidding.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I just am becoming a little bit more concerned about it.
		It's really an issue of whether or not the embedded system, it's generally an embedded systems issue.
		I think most people agree with that.
		It may be a software issue in some cases.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But mostly embedded, I think so, yes.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		And my question is, if we have, now, like you said, that you had received email from someone that had a VCR that locked up.
		I haven't seen that.
		I've tested fax machines, VCRs, anything that was date sensitive, and I have yet to see that.
		They still continue to function.
		But my question is, if the chips in these cheap components that we have, such as VCRs, are things that aren't so sensitive to daily life, in some people's case maybe they are, if those don't malfunction, then how are we to expect that the embedded systems and power systems will fail?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not sure one directly proves the other.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe it does.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Maybe it doesn't.
unidentified		Maybe it doesn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		But I think it's an interesting thing to think about because I would hope that the power industry has selected only top-of-the-line components to keep their systems running.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		But that would be questions, again, for the people in the industry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no offense, but I recall a 60-minute segment in which they told us that the U.S. government went to Radio Shack to buy parts for the MX missile.
		Remember that?
		That was awesome.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		That one was a little hard to believe, but they know about you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They said it happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So anyway, you're hopeful, but not absolutely confident.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm not real.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Like I said, with the recent power outages and the strange explanations, I'm a little bit more skeptical these days.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure no expert on power, but what I said was true.
		I mean, the grid is supposed to be a protective thing to provide powers to areas that lose it, not go down because one little area lost it.
		And I don't, if one little area can cause massive areas to go to down, then I don't understand the concept of the grid properly or something.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm no power expert myself.
		I only everything, like I told you, that I talked to technicians in the field and got their opinion.
		It doesn't mean we have to believe them, but that's at least a starting point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see here that you have something to say about global warming.
		It's going to be a little tough to talk people into global warming talk today when it's minus 3 million degrees in the center of the country.
		But there are certainly some signs that that is going on.
		You know, chunks of ice in the Antarctic breaking off and all kinds of canary-like signs that the climate is changing.
		Surely the weather, you heard me say this commercially here a little while ago, either it's a short-term cyclical change or a long-term profound change.
		I wouldn't pretend to know which, but I don't think there's much question about the fact that our weather is right now changing.
		What do you think?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it's definitely changing.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		From the data that I've seen and the research I've done, I would have to say that it is part of a cyclical pattern.
unidentified		And it's all based on the sun.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		It's based on what the sun is doing.
		Like you said, the year 2000 is going to be the peak of solar cycle 23.
		Now, we've seen solar cycles peak many times.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, a few times.
		You know, it's every 11 years or so, so I've seen part of it.
		Hams love them, you know, because things get real active and it's really neat on short wave.
		But you get enough of a blast from the sun, it too takes down power grids.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's been the explanation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you don't necessarily believe it.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		I'm not, yeah, I'm not sure that that's another one of those strange explanations as far as I'm concerned.
		Well, the industry has to make an excuse as to why the grid went down or why the people were out of power.
		And it's much easier to blame it on the sun than to blame it on some guy throwing a wrench into the works.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you see anything significantly different or worrisome about the present ascension portion of 23, cycle 23 and sun, than you do of previous cycles?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		No, as a matter of fact, in my website, I have a graph that compares the last three cycles.
		And it shows that solar cycle 23 is actually not panning out to be the big cycle that many people said it was going to be.
		It's actually lower than the previous two by quite a significant margin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you mean so far?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But they really never, they predict when a cycle is going to peak, and they predict when it's going to be at the null point, and they never, sometimes they're right, and sometimes they're really wrong.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yes, this is true.
		But if you look at the consistency of the pattern that cycle 23 is showing us now, generally they've got data that goes back quite far as far as solar cycles are concerned.
		And looking at that pattern, it does not appear that it's going to be as big as the previous two for certain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, when you say data that goes back quite far, it can't go back that far.
		From a mortal human perspective, I guess it can go back quite far.
		But we were unable to monitor reasonably sun cycles, I think, well, maybe one generation prior to ours, and that would be about it, wouldn't it?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, good monitoring, yes.
		Of course, the Chinese kept records all the way back to 1600.
		And basically, their records were nothing more than sunspot records, but that's a good indication of activity.
		Yeah, it was just this century that people really started having the ability to take a good close look at what the sun was doing.
		So certainly, I mean, I can't say for sure what is going to happen, but looking at the data, I'm just suggesting that it doesn't look as though it's going to be as big as originally predicted.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Be interesting.
		We have a satellite about a million miles out, SOHO, SOHO, that looks at the sun and gives us some pretty impressive, weird photos in every spectrum, just about, that the sun produces.
		And they're really eerie to look at.
		And there's sort of an ongoing thing with the SOHO satellite.
		It's on, it's off, it sees things that it shouldn't have seen, then it suddenly goes off.
		And I think right now it's off again.
		SOHO is off again, I believe, isn't it?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		The last time I saw it, I think it was off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Off, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have any comments on a couple of images that appear anomalous that have been captured by SOHO?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		I've seen those images, and they're, you know, everything that I can't explain it whatsoever.
		They're definitely anomalous.
		They could be anything.
		If they try and give some kind of, you know, physical explanation for it, I don't see where they could come up with that because it just looks too strange.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then, you know, it really is interesting that as soon as they capture something like this, shortly thereafter, oh no, Soho's gone again.
		I mean, we jump on conspiracies where that way.
		But, I mean, it does seem a little strange to me.
		You two?
unidentified		Well, yes.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there's no question about that.
		That's definitely strange.
		I think it's very interesting that we actually got to see what it did capture that time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe some people don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You want to describe some of the anomalies Soho has seen?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've seen things like fireballs racing toward the sun side by side.
		There's something, I can't remember exactly what it was referred to, but I believe they said it was either Mars or Saturn, and it moved in and out of the picture.
		And there's no explanation for that as far as I'm concerned.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, because, and I'm just a tough show host, but you can readily see the stars moving as you would expect them to move with respect to the relatively stationary sun, as Soho is looking at it, and yet this one object that they say is Mars or whatever they say it is, just sort of sits there and vacillates.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it's just too, it's beyond all rational explanation.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I haven't personally looked into it that much.
		I looked at it and I said, wow, there's definitely something going on here.
		We were fortunate enough to get those pictures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we were.
		And you almost have to imagine they slipped through.
		Okay, back to global warming.
		You obviously then don't think that there is a profound change going on.
		We do know, after all, that the Earth has gone through ice ages and then, I guess, warming trends and then back to ice ages again.
		You think we're simply observing a small cycle within a much larger cycle.
		You don't think this is sort of the beginning of a really major change toward ice age or toward warming.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, I see that, you know, what's happening, first you have the sun that causes these changes in the weather, you know, the peak in the solar cycle.
		Look at all of the data.
		You have the sun.
		You have the El Niño-La Niña Southern Oscillation Index.
		You look at those things, just those two things, and you can see that many people now are beginning to be able to predict what's going to happen with the weather based on just those two items.
		The data itself, as far as global warming is concerned, there's a lot of controversy there.
		There's two methods of acquiring the surface temperature data.
		One is by satellite.
		The other is the old method, which was by the old Stevenson boxes, where you would have a small weather station located within a city or at an airport or something like that.
		And someone would have to actually take the daily readings of the temperature.
		And as a matter of fact, as a teenager, I did this myself.
		I used to go out to the box every day for the University of North Dakota and take the temperature and give them the data.
		And the interesting thing about that is that there's this known phenomenon called the urban island heat effect.
		And in the city, and that's where most of these boxes are located, a good majority of them, and in some cities there are several of these boxes, that the temperature is a lot higher in the city than it is in rural areas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'm the best proof of that.
		I'm 65 miles west of Las Vegas.
		And just 65 miles.
		And there is typically a 10-degree or more temperature difference between here and Las Vegas.
		It's cooler here.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, that pretty much explains it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, there's a lot of concrete there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, it's concrete jungle now.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Right, that's what the urban island heat effect is all about, is that the structures, the concrete structures, the asphalt, everything collects the heat and holds it and slowly releases it at night.
		So you will see higher temperatures throughout the day.
		When you look at the two methods of collecting the data, the satellite data, which has been, they've had that going since 1979, and you compare that with the Stevenson box data or the weather collecting data, the surface temperature data, you see a very different picture.
		And that picture is the satellite data is showing not a heating trend at all.
		And, of course, the surface temperature data is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, then let me throw you a little bit of a curve.
		I have a good friend in Australia, Stan Dale.
		I bet you've heard him.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Oh, certainly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And Stan has been observing, reading U.S. Naval Observatory satellite data regarding ocean temperature for some time and recording anomalous, gigantic changes in ocean temperatures that ought not be in places where there ought not be such rises,
		and then correlating those to earthquakes and weird weather, and he seems to be on to something.
		So, you know, there is a place where there's no concrete or buildings or anything, just ocean.
		And you're getting these really weird changes.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what the satellite data is supposed to show.
		I haven't seen this information that Stan Deo's presenting.
		I'd like to see that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, he's got it posted.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the satellite data I'm speaking of, there's a website, a direct link from my site to it.
		This is from a person who has done an incredible amount of research.
		His name is John Daly, and he is a resident of Tasmania.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tasmania?
unidentified		Yes.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		And his data is certainly different.
		He's got a huge website on this.
		He's really done his homework on it, and he presents both sides.
		But when you get done looking at it, you have to, or at least in my case, I said, well, it doesn't look good for the global warming camp.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, he concludes what?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, the name of his site is called Still Waiting for Greenhouse.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Still Waiting for Greenhouse.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		He shows, through many graphs, a comparison Between the surface temperature data and the satellite data.
		And he shows no significant warming.
		He also compares this to the solar cycle data.
		He compares it to El Niño-La Niña.
		He gets into the CO2 models that have been presented with respect to chemicals being released in the atmosphere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He's got a lot of data.
		All right, good.
		Well, that'll lead us into another very interesting discussion of the environment in general with coral reefs dying, about 75% of them going belly up, hysteria, and the various diseases that appear to be caused by chemicals dumped into the water.
		Lynn M. Moulton Howe's done a whole lot of reporting on that, and we'll ask Michael Thoreau if he thinks that's all baloney.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		This is Coastal Coast AM.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Well, that was a productive break.
		Now, I have decided that the press is going to make me into the bad guy this year because I talk so much about Millennium-related stuff, that I am going to help them in their drive to crucify me.
		And so in that regard, I have now posted on my webcam a picture of Millennium Master.
		I did that in the last few minutes.
		So if you want the official, Here's How to Get Art Bell in Trouble, Millennium Master picture, to be accompanied by any articles accusing me of being a Millennium cultist, this will be it.
		So those of you in the press better rush up there and get this picture on my studio cam quickly because I'm not sure how long I'm going to leave it there.
unidentified		So I mean it would be like your file picture.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Something that would be just right to write a hit piece about me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See how helpful I am?
unidentified		It's on my studio cam right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Millennium Master Bell.
		God, I love radio.
		Michael Thoreau will be right back, and we've got a lot of very serious stuff to talk about.
unidentified		Thank you.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Back now to Michael Thoreau, Michael of Borderlands.
		And by the way, we've got a link to Michael's website where all you hear him talking about, no doubt, is covered.
		And so it's going to be a very, very interesting website.
		Go to my website, as usual, scroll down to the name, Michael Thoreau.
		That is French, right?
		It sure is.
		Loudie X, yeah, I show you that.
		And, God, I love Paris.
		I've been to Paris twice now, and I'm going to go back again.
		We really love Paris.
		But the French are pretty weird, Michael.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm Canadian friends.
unidentified		Oh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess so.
		Anyway, your website is a very, very interesting website, and we do have a link to it.
		People will go up there right now.
		So I hope it can handle a lot of traffic.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it can.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		It can certainly handle quite a bit of traffic, and I think it is right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
		Okay.
		Again, with the environment for a second, I could go through this great litany, but I'll spare you most of it.
		Coral reefs dying at this incredible rate.
		Recent news of that.
		The problems in the Antarctic.
		The frog problems.
		Frogs dying all over the world.
		Really all over the world disappearing.
		Let's see.
		The ozone layer, which is probably in the same camp with the global warming.
		Or maybe not, I don't know.
		Things like hysteria that appear to be activated by toxins, which we appear to be swoshing off the coast, for example, in North Carolina.
		That kind of thing.
		Really severe canary-type dead problems.
		What do you make of all that?
		Hysteria?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		No, it's true.
		There's no question about that.
		As a matter of fact, I remember you talking about the story.
		Were they a carrier or homing pigeon?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, just thousands of homing pigeons that all of a sudden didn't come home.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I received a report from someone that lived just south of here.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		We're in Northern California, that on those days they had thousands of these pigeons camping out on their property.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I bet they were confused by something.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there's definitely something wrong there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Now, then let me slip right into this, and I know this is an area of contention.
		You know, of course, Richard Hoagland.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you know that he has posted a bunch of weather radar photos that are pretty weird.
		Nexarad radar.
		And there are two camps.
		One camp says, look, there are problems with Nexarad radar.
		they produce at times in in the cycle of the radar these anomalous photographs good heavens to betsy some of these photographs of
		And Michael, I guess I should have talked to you off the air, but I read a letter from a very, very credentialed person who's scared to death, who is absolutely convinced that active weather control is being experimented with right now.
		And I know you have a different view of this and the NEXRAD radar.
		Do you think that there's anything going on here or nothing?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Let's see.
		Where do I start with this?
		I think that there are people or governments or whoever, researchers, experimenting with manipulating the weather by electromagnetic means.
		I don't know that they've been successful.
		I would imagine that they are definitely doing some experiments.
		I don't think that the radar thing has a connection.
		I can't say for sure, certainly.
		But one of the first things that I did when I saw these anomalous radar images was to call some NEX-RAD technicians just to see what they had to say about it.
		For instance, these rings were appearing over Amarillo, Texas, Brownsville, Texas, all over the country you'll see these things.
		But it seemed a bit to be more frequent around Amarillo, Texas.
		So I called the National Weather Service in Amarillo, and I talked with a technician there.
		And he told me, yes, we know all about it.
		We have a faulty automatic gain control, and the parts are on order, and we'll have it fixed.
		Well, there were a few more images the next few days, and then they disappeared, and I haven't seen anything since.
		So, you know, if I'm to follow up on that, I should give them a call back and say, did you get the parts in and did you fix it?
		Because, you know, we haven't seen anything.
		So I think the thing is that I called all of these people that work directly with NEXRAD and asked them the questions.
		We don't have to believe them, of course, but I didn't receive any indication that they seemed really concerned about it unless they were all trying to cover something up.
		But they didn't seem real concerned about it.
		They seemed to be able to explain what they were seeing by either malfunctions in the radar, things like a phenomenon called bright band, which is freezing precipitation that falls within the radar beam at a certain elevation and causes a ring.
		And I have examples of that on my website, too.
		So they seem to have explanations for many things.
		And like I said, we don't have to believe them.
		There could be another reason for that, but at least we have that from them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you taken a recent perusal of the Enterprise Mission site?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I look at it quite frequently.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you seen the Carolina shot?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Is that the most recent one with several rings?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's like a ripple effect going out?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I did see that.
		I don't have any explanation for that, but again, it does look similar to some of the things they've described.
		I have a link on, like I said, on my website that shows many examples of what you will see looking at NEXRAD radar images, and there are many anomalies that they cover.
		There's also a link to the journal called NEXRAD Now, and it's four technicians that deal with NEXRAD.
		And in many of the journals, you can click on the articles and look at it and see the problems that they're dealing with with this new radar system.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it's also, I mean, just separate ourselves now from the NEXRAD argument for a second.
		Weather control would be an obvious area of inquiry that governments would be doing.
		I mean, that's not really hard to imagine, huh?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		No, it's not at all.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		The modification of weather has been something that's sought after since ancient history.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, you could use it to create a paradise, perhaps at the expense of a paradise somewhere else.
		Or you could use it as a weapon.
		And anything you can use as a weapon, governments are really interested in that kind of thing.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, anything.
		They certainly are.
		If they see any potential for some kind of technology being a weapon, they will latch on to it.
		No question about that.
		For instance, we've published a number of articles on what we call etheric weather engineering.
		This is a technique that was actually developed by Wilhelm Reich in the 50s with the Cloudbuster.
		And it's evolved into, as a matter of fact, in the 50s, another researcher came along named Trevor James Constable, who we published a number of his books, one of them called Loom of the Future, which is all about weather engineering.
		He has done probably 30 years of research into weather engineering using modifications of Reich's techniques, utilizing the etheric science of Rudolf Steiner to explain how the weather system functions as an organism.
		Very interesting material.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Even Tesla.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		He doesn't get so much into Tesla.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		No, when we're looking at Tesla, that's a different story altogether.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, but some of what, I guess where I was going was some of Tesla's technology, if we believe what we are to hear, and a lot of it may be myth, but some Tesla technology could be applied toward the effort to affect weather, couldn't it?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		I imagine some of it could.
		I don't recall seeing anything that was specific to that, specific to engineering the weather.
		He made some statements and some interviews, and, you know, he made a lot of statements and interviews that were really interesting.
		Some of them were just completely wrong.
		Most of these interviews actually came out sometime after he really wasn't active in research anymore, sometime after the 20s, after the Electrical Experimenter magazine by Hugo Gernsbach stopped running his articles.
		The last things that he ran, and this was long after the Wardencliffe experiment, were things about the inefficiency of Hertzian propagation concerning radio and his wireless power system.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that he really had a wireless power system?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		I have seen recreations of it demonstrated, so I have no doubts that he had it.
		We actually have this on videotape.
		We had a lab back in the 80s where we recreated a number of Tesla's experiments right out of the books.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, excuse me, but this is 1999.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so if something like that is, as you just suggested, reproducible and possible, then what the hell are we doing with all these power lines and stuff?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a good question.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you know, I'm sure that's the way they want it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they, whoever they are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Power companies, oil companies?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		The people that are running the show.
		You know, it's a commodity.
		It's consumable.
		It's something they can keep control of.
		You know, the way Tesla envisioned things, you're looking at something that puts more control in the hands of the people and takes it away from those in power.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, people don't believe this, but when Tesla died, it's a truth.
		The government came rushing in.
		This is a true story.
		They confiscated every single bit of Tesla research, and it just went away.
		You verify that?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's true.
		I've seen a number of explanations for that, too.
		I mean, you know, Tesla, in all the interviews that he did after 1920, he said all kinds of things about, you know, beam ray devices, you know, beam ray weapon type things, mind, you know, being able to read others' thoughts with devices, all kinds of things.
		And I would suspect because he said a lot of those things that when the government said, well, we've got to go in there and see what he has, I don't know that he actually had anything, but they certainly did confiscate everything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was Tesla a genuine genius or a nutcase or both?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think he was definitely a genuine genius.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		As far as being a nutcase in his later years, I think he still wanted, I don't think he was a nutcase, but I think he still wanted the attention.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that was cruel.
		I should have said nutcase.
		A lot of genius types are considered to be somewhat antisocial, if not at the edge of madness.
		You know, genius and madness seem to sort of walk almost hand in hand sometimes.
unidentified		Oh, yes.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		I know several people like that.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Several people that write for our magazine are like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it's just true.
		I don't know why, but it is true.
		So maybe he had a touch of both.
		Now, what do you mean when you talk about biological communications?
		What do you mean?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's an extension of the plant research that we did.
		There was a researcher, and he was featured prominently in the book The Secret Life of Plants, named L. George Lawrence.
		What Dr. Lawrence did was to take, he did some original experiments of plants.
		This guy was a researcher that worked in the space industry.
		He worked in the defense industry.
		This is back in the 60s.
		He worked on missile guidance systems, things like this.
		And he wanted to develop something that, you know, some kind of a tracking system that would be able to look at all kinds of environmental conditions and say, this is where I need to go or I can adapt.
		And he started looking into plants, plant sensors, possibly having the ability to do this.
		This was even before Cleve Baxter's research.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, let me be straight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're talking about communication with plants.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, he gets into that later on.
		He quits working for the defense industry and the aerospace industry and goes into his own research on a full-time basis.
		And what he was doing initially was showing that plants communicate over great distances, that he could set up some form of communication between cells of plants from one point to the next point.
		And from his calculations, he was looking at something that was faster than the speed of light.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would anybody care to account, would you like to try to even guess how that could be?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, there actually was quite a bit of research done in this area in the 20s and 30s.
		There was a Russian histologist named Alexander Gervich who initiated these kinds of experiments with using cells of actually he was using onion cells.
		And he created an onion ray gun, is what he called it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		An onion ray gun.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		An onion ray gun, yes.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Now, what he did is he observed, he isolated a small tip of the root, put it in a test tube, pointed it at another, a slide that had onion cells on it, and showed that through experiments by pointing this onion ray gun at the slide, the cells would multiply.
unidentified		Wow.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		If he pointed it away from them, they wouldn't multiply.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		So this is the kind of research that got L. George Lawrence interested in the idea that plants have some form of communication between each other.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's amazing.
		We know whales, for example, I think scientists have documented, are able to conduct communication through the water, virtually from one side of the world to the other, through the world's oceans.
		They can actually communicate.
		Now, that's diminished by man's ocean noise lately, but whales do have that ability.
		Do you think they contend that plants can virtually communicate in the same manner only, perhaps, through the earth?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, it might be through the earth, but I would suggest that it's through some other medium.
		And that medium many people have referred to as the ether.
		That gets into the ether?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The whole other stuff.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the hypothetical ether that was supposedly disproven in the first part of the century.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do they mean by ether?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, like I said, that's a difficult.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		It's basically what the ether was to the Victorians who came up with the idea, was some method of describing that substratum that radio waves and things like that travel through.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The ionosphere.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, the ionosphere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, radio waves travel, of course.
		We have what we call ground wave or line of sight, and then we have it travels in other ways as well.
		Hold on, we'll pick up right here when we come back as I continue my little trip, my nostalgic trip here.
unidentified		Summer lovin'had me a blast.
		Summer lovin'happened so fast.
		I met a girl crazy for me.
		Met a boy curious for me.
		Summer days trippin'away.
		I love a summer night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, check out my webcam.
unidentified		Tell me, boy, tell me, boy, get your merry boy.
		Tell me, boy, tell me, boy, everyone.
		Take a long way.
		Never see what you wanna see.
		Never think through the gallery.
		Take the long way.
		Take a long way home When you're up on the stage It's so unbelievable Unforgettable How may it go too?
		But then your wife seems to think You're losing your sanity Out of vanity With a no way out From the Kingdom of Nigh, this is Coast to Coast A.M. with our bell.
		From East of the Rockies, call Art at 1-800-825-5033.
		West of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico, at 1-800-618-8255.
		First-time callers may rechart at Area Code 702-727-1222.
		And you may fax art at Area Code 702-727-8499.
		Please limit your faxes to one or two pages.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
		Now again, here's Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My official Millennium Master Photograph is on my webcam site right now.
		I don't know how long I'm going to leave it there, but anybody wanting to trash me in the press needs a copy of this for their files.
		It may be just great.
		Trust me, it'll go great with an article when you write it.
		Anyway, it's up there now on my webcam.
		Okay, listen, we're going to get back to Michael Thoreau, and we're going to talk a little more about biological communications.
		Consider the possibilities, as they say.
		Don't touch that dial.
unidentified		Don't touch that dial.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I tried to say, well, line-of-sight communications we know about with radio and television.
		We know about ducting that can occur and cause signals to go further because of weather inversions.
		And we know about skip, which occurs when you get to various levels of the ionosphere.
		How does that differ from the ether?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, everything you're talking about there, Art, is Hertzian propagation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		If you get into Tesla's work, you'll find that he wasn't interested in Hertzian propagation at all and said it was extremely inefficient as far as means of communication.
		Tesla's whole idea, and this is a big misconception about Tesla too, his whole idea behind radio and behind his wireless power was to transmit through the earth.
		Through the earth.
		He called it the natural medium.
unidentified		And because he felt it was the best conductor.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		It was a better conductor than air itself.
		So when you talk about ether, a lot of people think ether, well, that's synonymous with the air or the atmosphere or something like that.
		But I think the ether has a much more dynamic component To it than that, and can be found not only throughout the Earth and the atmosphere, but in space as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Then comment for me on this.
		There is a gentleman, Plyler, is his name.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I'm familiar.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Interviewed, and he has been detecting these incredible pulses, very low-frequency pulses, in the Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I won't go into great detail about it, but have you looked into his work, and what do you think?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		I have.
		We've actually spoken a little bit by email.
		One of the things, you know, he's doing some very similar research that we've done in the past and are currently doing.
		As a matter of fact, a researcher that works with us named Eric Dollard is doing very similar research.
		He's looking at higher frequencies, of course.
		But, yeah, I've seen the things that Mr. Plyler's picking up.
		You know, there could be some correlation to solar activity.
		I think that's something to look into, if there are any correlations with events of that nature.
		But he's definitely picking some things up.
		He's definitely doing some good research there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's stay in the earth for a moment.
unidentified		The famous Taos Hum.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I notice you've done a little work on that.
		And it's not just Taos.
		Here where I live, we've had it too.
		Very seriously had it.
		I've told a story several times on the air of a friend of mine across town here in Peru, Nevada, who built a porch for his house.
		And he sunk, you know, the great big, I don't know, 204s or 6s or whatever, they sink into the ground as supports for the porch.
		And when he did that, the hum in his house, he's a friend of mine, a ham, was so bad that he couldn't sleep at night.
		Standest thing you ever saw.
		He finally ended up tearing down the porch.
		Now, I happen to know this to be an absolutely, absolutely true story.
		In Tallos, New Mexico, they've had this weird hum.
		What do you think it is?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		That's a very good question.
		We've been doing research on this one for many years as well.
		I've heard it myself.
		It's kept me awake at night.
		I haven't heard it in, oh, probably a year and a half now, which leads me to believe that it's definitely artificial.
		I don't know where it's really coming from.
		We've looked into a number of things.
		It seems to have an acoustic quality to it, but then again, since it's definitely got an infrasound component to it, something that's below the threshold of hearing, there seems to be another means of conduction through the body, too, in that building certain structures like this porch can actually enhance the effect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then, if we sit here and we think, hmm, something artificial is causing a big hum in different parts of, in different geographic locations, and it appears not to be a natural thing, but something somebody or some group is doing, and there may be some weather control experimentation going on.
		You know, I really, I know it sounds so conspiratorial-minded, but I have every reason to believe that we are not exactly told the truth about all the research our government is doing, and that they won't tell us.
		I mean, our history is of feeding plutonium to children and pregnant women and admissions of that kind of stuff.
unidentified		If we'll do that, we'll do anything.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, infrasound has been considered a choice for a weapon system for some time.
		As a matter of fact, I have in my possession some material from the 60s from the military, different reports that show that they were doing infrasound research at that time, as far back as the early 60s, and they were seriously looking into it.
		There was also a researcher in France named Gavreau who did a lot of research with an infrasound weapon.
		He found that he couldn't really shield the sound from the people operating the instruments.
		The thing was so dangerous that he couldn't do anything with it.
		There's another thing out there right now that should be of concern, too, and it's called low-frequency acoustic sonar.
		I don't know if you're familiar with that or not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, are you talking about some of the experiments they've been doing off the island of Hawaii that Greenpeace was really raising all kinds of hell about?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's not just Hawaii.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		They've been doing experiments all over.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the complaint, of course, from Greenpeace, and I had them on the air, was that it would confuse, perhaps even in a disastrous way, whales, which navigate this way, they think.
		And here we've got carrier pigeons in the air, homing pigeons, not going home, and that sort of stuff going on.
		I mean, it just all sort of adds up to somebody's out there fooling around with the basic elements.
		And I guess that's what I think I believe.
		Maybe I've just been listening to my own material too long, but that's the way it adds up to me.
unidentified		How about you?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they're fooling with all kinds of things.
		Whether their intent is to mess with humans, I don't know.
		I think when you're looking at something like the HART Project, this low-frequency sonar, there are several radar systems that are suspicious.
		You look at all of these things, you see they're designed or what they say their design purpose is for.
		And I would have to think that that's what they're indeed for, and they create all kinds of problems.
		And the military or whoever's involved with the project doesn't seem to really care that they're creating these kinds of problems.
		I think the problems are secondary to their mission.
		In other words, their intent is one thing, and the problems are being created as a secondary effect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, we went round and round and round about the HAARP project up in Alaska.
		Now, it's interesting because if you talk to their PR guys, HARP is nothing.
		It's just trying to decide a few things about propagation and so forth and so on.
		But then when you look at who's involved and where the money is and all of that, you find out very quickly the military is involved in the HARP project.
		And a reasonable person would conclude that, or at least ask themselves, now, gee, now, why would the military be interested in this if it's just a little research about propagation?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's a good question.
		I don't think that the HAARP project, as it sits right now, or even in its completion, is the big deal that many people are saying.
		I don't think it can do the things that people are saying it can do.
		I mean, right now we're looking at the phase of completion that it's in right now is called the developmental prototype.
		It has 48 antenna elements.
		Right now, only 18 of them are, well, according to the HARP site.
		Now, we have to remember, this is all according to what's published on their website and their updates.
		Yeah, I haven't been there.
		They do have an open house every year, so people can go through and look.
		But when you're looking at that, and you look at the technology and you say, well, yeah, that makes sense.
		If you have a background in radio engineering, it makes a lot of sense.
		They're transmitting between 2 and 10 megacycles.
		Their output power right now is only 360 kilowatts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
		As a matter of fact, they had hams monitoring the output of HAARP.
		And I heard HARP.
		I monitored it here at my house.
		And frankly, it was kind of a puny little signal.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It wasn't much.
unidentified		But when it's completed, that's a different story.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		We're looking at 3.6 megawatts.
		We're looking at a considerable amount of power there.
		I think we'll hear more than just a puny signal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so do I. But what has always interested me about this is that they're talking about the combining of frequencies.
		In other words, when you take two frequencies and you beat them together, you can create an extremely low frequency.
		I mean, you really can create a whole variety of harmonic frequencies.
		And there, you could begin to do some things that would interest our military.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know what they're doing?
		This is based again on what they say they're doing, and it seems to make sense to me in any case.
		But the transmitter itself is not generating these ELF frequencies that we're talking about.
		What they're doing is they're using the polar electrojet to try and create the ELF emissions from the polar electrojet.
		So in other words, they use that as a large antenna to create ELF transmissions.
		So it's not actually coming from the HARP transmitter itself.
		And you can read about this on their site and draw your own conclusions.
		You can also read about the power levels that they're talking about with respect to ELF.
		And they give several examples of how much ELF your computer gives off in comparison to what HARP is doing.
		And I think they're doing some experiment.
		Obviously, the military is involved.
unidentified		They see the potential for what?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm thinking, based on what I've seen, they see potential for disrupting communications, certainly, and the potential for having avenues of communications themselves that no one else can access or utilize.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Even if you go into the world of medicine, scientists seem to have very little regard for what might happen.
		And I'm going to give you an example.
		In San Francisco, not long ago, some poor fellow who had AIDS was talked into an experiment in which his immune system would be finished off.
		In other words, it would completely kill his immune system and then transfer the immune system of an ape, I believe, to his body.
		And it was, of course, on the one hand, you could argue a wonderfully humane thing and a great scientific effort to try.
		But on the other hand, it would be possible that there would be some sort of effect that would result in a new combined human-ape sort of virus that might be very problematic for all of humanity.
		And, you know, whatever decision-making went on to do this, one thing they didn't do was to consult the general public when they did the experiment.
		They just did it.
		And I'm wondering if with biological experiments in our air, in our atmosphere, and in the very earth we walk on, there are scientists who are basically disregarding our safety.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		I agree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You do?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		As a matter of fact, when people talk about HARP, I think what people need to understand is the bigger picture here, is that HAARP is not the only transmitter of that kind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's right.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		They're all over the place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		And there's a lot of money going into this so-called ionospheric research at this time.
		And with total disregard, I mean, we know that late 50s, early 60s, they were detonating nuclear weapons in the ionosphere to see what would happen.
		What kind of sense does that make?
		I have nothing good to say about HARP in that respect.
		But I think people really need to focus.
		For instance, Bernard Eastland's patent, if they create that, and everyone says, well, HARP is directly related to Bernard Eastland's patent, and it is to some extent, except that it's so small, it doesn't compare to the vision of Bernard Eastland.
		if they do create what he envisioned then we really have something to worry about uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so who's watching over these people?
		And the answer really seems to be nobody.
		It might have military application.
		Well, let's rock and roll.
		Let's go and see what happens.
		it's the equivalent of art bell finding this you know the famous spaceship uh...
		that crashed in forty seven intact walking inside and just starting to push buttons to see what happens I think it's a good thing that people are, you know, that there are activists out there that are looking into these things.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		I wish in some cases that the activists, many of them, would get their information a little bit more correct as far as the technical side of things is concerned.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		But there's no doubt that they're playing a significant role if they can actually get in there and do something about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		When we get back from the break we're going to take now, I'm going to ask you about ufology and UFOs very quickly.
		And then if you're up for it, I'm going to turn you over to the audience and allow them to ask you questions.
		Hello?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, I'm certainly up for that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, then that's on the way.
		We will be right back.
unidentified		If you could remind my love, what a tale my thoughts could tell.
		Just like an old-time movie, about a ghost from wishing well.
		In a castle dark or a fortress strong, with chains upon my feet, you know that ghost is me.
		I will never be set free.
		As long as I'm a ghost, you can see.
		If I could read your mind, love, what a tale your thoughts could tell.
		Just like the paper battle, the kind of drugstore sell.
		I see sweetness of green, red roses too.
		I see them blue for me.
		And I think to myself, what a wonderful world.
		I see skies of blue, the clouds of white, the brightness of day, the dogs they night.
		And I think to myself, what a wonderful world.
		To talk with Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nigh.
		From east of the Rockies, dial 1-800-825-5033.
		West of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico.
		1-800-618-8255.
		First-time callers may reach Art at area code 702-727-1222.
		And you may call Art on the Wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
		To rechart from outside the U.S., first dial your access number to the USA.
		I much live more.
		And I'm much more than I love.
		And I think you must know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't care.
		I'm just not going to step on my line no matter what.
		Morning, everybody.
		Michael Thoreau is here from Borderlands Research.
		And if you want to know more about Michael Thoreau and what he does, you might scoot up to my website, www.artbell.com, scroll down to Michael Thoreau's name, and click on the link.
		And before you know it, at the speed of light, well, it should be at the speed of light.
		It's actually at the speed of the internet, which is a very different sort of thing, unfortunately.
		Someday it'll be the speed of light.
		You'll go to his site and take a look.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now it's back to Michael Thoreau, and I want to ask you, well, actually, I want to ask you one question, read you one facts, and then we are going to lines.
		The question is about UFOs.
		Now, I have had a gazillion guests on about UFOs.
		I have seen one myself, a real butte, actually.
		And I assume that, you know, brushing into the kind of research you've been in, you have looked at the whole ufology community as well.
		Is there really Something going on.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, there's something going on.
		As a matter of fact, Borderland Sciences was founded in 1945, and the journal at that time was called The Round Robin.
		And in, I believe it was September of 1946, we reported some of the first sightings of UFOs in the San Diego area.
		And this was about a year before the famous Kenneth Arnold sightings.
		So we've been into this for a long time.
		The founder of Borderlands was very much into it.
		Borderlands was founded as kind of a paranormal investigation resource, and along with the magazine, reported on these things and has reported on these for some 53 years now.
		And I've seen things myself.
		I've never seen anything that I could put my finger on.
		But I have seen things that many people have seen in the sky where you have something that looks like a satellite initially, and it just takes off in another direction, 90 degrees to where it was traveling, and then disappears.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The military tracks these.
		NORAD tracks these, and they call them fast walkers, and I don't think they know what they are.
		Either that or they know exactly what they are.
		It's one of the two, and that really goes to the basic question, are some of these things, in your opinion, not from here?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't have any problem with that.
		I would have to think that they aren't from here.
		I don't know.
		I don't think borderland sciences has ever really subscribed wholly to the idea that we're looking at some kind of a mechanistic propulsion system that carries extraterrestrials from someplace 20 light years away or 20,000 light years away to here.
		We've always kind of looked at this as an interdimensional phenomenon.
		And that it's a different way to look at it.
		I don't discount the possibility of some anti-gravity device or something like that used as propulsion.
		But I would think that space travel is going to, for those kinds of distances, space travel is going to have to have it.
		You're going to have to look at it in a completely different fashion in order to get to the bottom of it.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to read you a facts I just got.
		And too bad there isn't a phone number here.
		I'd be calling it right now.
		Art, I am a professional pilot who was hired by a company to fly aircraft for government-funded weather modification experiments.
		I witnessed some pretty amazing weather changes due to our experiments.
		There are chemicals available for the U.S. to create whatever weather it wants at any point in time.
		Then it lists a number of web pages that absolutely must be seen, and I'm going to check them out before I give them out.
		But he says, also next radar loops of weather results from weather modification.
		You would be surprised to see how similar these may look to the Arizona event.
		Care to comment on the Arizona event, Turd Peak?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Who, me?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'd love to talk.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wish I had this guy on the air with us right now.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		I don't know that, you know, personally, I don't know that anything actually happened there.
		I don't know that, you know.
		I mean, we're talking about the things that you've talked before on your show about the succession of events that leads from the so-called EQ peg signal all the way up to Turret Peak.
		And I don't think a lot of those things actually happened.
		I think that there was a hoax that was happening and it got into some kind of perpetuation based on other things that were brought into it and I haven't seen any evidence that there was There's no question about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But is it possible that because everybody was looking for something at that rough location, at that exact location, actually, that the hoax ended up upending something else that was real?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I see what you're saying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, just because everybody was looking at that and they were looking at, that's where this whole radar thing sprung from, really.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so, yeah, sure, the hoax was a hoax.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think we all know that.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you're looking at the other radar anomalies, I don't think they looked anything like what was presented by NextRed over Turret Peak for those days.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		You didn't see the giant rings that you saw, like, around Amarillo or Brownsville, Texas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, exactly.
		Oh, the one around Brownsville is really incredible.
		Very incredible.
		All right, well, listen, let's take some calls.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with Michael Thoreau.
unidentified		Hi.
		Yeah, hi.
		This is Cosmo calling from Houston, Texas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Houston, all right?
unidentified		Yeah, Art, it's a real pleasure to get through on your show.
		You have a wonderful show, and I really appreciate your distribution of information.
		It's really a help.
		Thank you.
		I just had some statements I wanted to make.
		Basically, you know, I feel that, you know, these technologies are controlled right now at this point, and if we ever reached a point to where it was out in the open, we would have a chance for our best minds to actually work on these technologies for a good purpose instead of military application, yeah.
		Yeah.
		And I think it's really unfortunate that we don't have the general public aware of some of the things that are going on in this world and some of the things that our government may know that we may not know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		i really think that's a fair comment could you disagree with that michael i wouldn't agree with that at all we have spent billions and actually trillions of dollars developing weapons systems and ways to disable people uh...
		we have people working on uh...
		e_t_ even relatively harmless ways to disable people with low frequencies all kinds of weird things and if we were to apply that effort that technology in the open to say cancer or whatever you're gonna wonder if we still cancer all right well while card line you're on the air with michael throw hello hi uh...
unidentified		are i'd like to talk to you where are where are you sir calling from texas okay i have a question is going back to y_t_k_ and the other stuff that's going to go on i'm a computer programmer for the state and because of the pretty large prison system criminal justice system so yes and and i'm fully aware that their computers are not y_t_k_ compliant
unidentified		and all of our parolees releasees all of it is kept on computer it's all judged by computer I mean when someone comes up for parole it's pulled up with computer and we're going to have major problems whenever whenever you know all this turns around and it was just something for you to think about and food shortages power outages all of that for our all over the U.S. our prison populations are in major trouble because
art bell ▲ ● ▼		you know our government's not prepared to feed them all right you're a you say you're a computer programmer for the state of texas and uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		you're involved in the uh...
unidentified		uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		the people uh...
		set the area there are you know i've actually heard people say that jail doors are going to pop open or lock shut or all kinds of weird things are going to happen to you do you really possible yet because it's all computerized i mean and all of of p_d_c_j_ i_d_ uh...
		computer systems are from the seventies and eighties i mean they have been updated they have been another software or computers have been updated their how how why two k compliant are they not i mean how much work would it get it would take uh...
		since you're in a position to know to make them compliant it would take a totally political but i'm concerned i'm talking in terms of man hours over a year over the market and that's what they may population work doing it uh...
		with inmate population doing what the work yet i'm not sure that i'd i'd have the inmate population writing code about when the doors open although Well, it would take a totally new system.
unidentified		Totally new system.
unidentified		I don't think you can update the system that they have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Any comments, Michael?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's kind of a scary thing, I think.
unidentified		And this is just in Texas.
		You know, Texas has a pretty up-to-date penal system.
		I mean, some of the smaller states, I'm not sure what their system is like.
		Yeah, I think people really need to look at their systems.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		If no one has said anything to anyone about, look, this has the potential to cause major problems here.
		We need to fix this.
		And they haven't said anything yet.
		I would definitely be worried about that.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, I sure appreciate your call.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a little worrisome when you hear people that are in the business, you know, I mean directly in the business saying that.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's one thing I would stress, too, is that before I started writing things about Y2K, I looked at all of my systems.
		Everybody should check out their systems.
		I mean, that's just the first thing you'd want to do is to check out your systems.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay, I talked to Keith.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know Keith Rowan, my webmaster?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And he runs a, I think it's Linux system.
		And he wasn't Y2K compliant.
		I think he is now, but he wasn't.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I understand Linux has a problem with the year 2037.
		That's when Unix-type systems will have problems.
		And hopefully somebody will get on it before 2036.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on air with Michael Thoreau.
unidentified		morning Art this is Marcia in Fort Smith Arkansas again yes ma'am mr. Thoreau you were talking about the plants the communications and y'all talked about the scientist that cut the head of lettuce and the plant reacted violently later when he just walked into the room and people are going I gather that they're not quite sure how it could have done it I know Art was questioning you know it just seems logical the plants would have some sort
		communication with each other.
		And also our human bodies are filled with electricity.
		We have energy fields all around them.
		And I'm sure they're kind of like fingerprints.
		Every person's energy fields are unique to that particular person.
		So what very well could have happened was that the plant recognized the pattern of energy fields that was present at the time the head of lettuce was cut.
		Oh yes, I agree.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		As a matter of fact, plants have their own electrical currents too.
		Yeah.
		There are other ways of measuring how a plant reacts to things using their own self potentials because they generate currents.
		So that's very true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well that's how our own nervous system works, right?
		In other words, impulses for touch, feeling pain, all of these things are electrical impulses to our brains.
		Yes.
		Not a totally dissimilar thing.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		No, it's not.
		You look at the system.
		The problem that biological scientists have with this is that you look at the different systems between a plant, you know, the system between a plant and a human.
		If you're looking at the system, you know, as a matter from the perspective of geometry, let's say, you're looking at what could be considered a dendritic system in both cases.
		Dendritic meaning that it has many branching patterns.
		Mm-hmm.
		The neurological system in the human body, for example, instance take take a look here's an analogy take a look at at a person, the human form, and take a look at a plant and its root system.
		What you see in a human is basically an inverted plant.
		Its branching system is going down toward the earth, plant is branching toward the sky.
		But it's still an endritic branching pattern.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on there with Michael Thoreau.
unidentified		Hello?
		Hello?
		Hello.
		Yes, I have a question.
		It's a little off the topic you were just recently discussing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Shot up.
unidentified		Yeah, at the beginning of the show, you said that your guest, Mr. Thoreau, had some comments about colloidal silver, and I was interested in hearing about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Yeah.
		Colloidal silver, let me give you my little story, and you can comment on it.
		I had somebody, without naming who, who sent me a bunch of colloidal silver.
		And I thought, because I kept, you know, every time I fly, I get sicker than a dog.
		And so I thought, uh-huh.
		So a month before I flew, I just, I'll tell you, I drank colloidal silver.
		I snorted colloidal silver.
		When I flew, I took a little inhaler thing and went, you know, snorted colloidal silver.
		And I got home and I was sicker than I've ever been in my entire life.
		So what's the deal?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've heard this before from other people, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've done, the kind of research that we've done into coil silver is more along the chemical composition of it, trying to refine it for those people who believe that it's indeed the panacea or the cure-all that many claim.
		But I've heard reports just like that, and I wouldn't, you know, obviously I'm not a doctor, so I can't recommend it, but I wouldn't recommend it anyway as some kind of cure-all.
		And I think people really need to know that.
		Many people have had good results with it.
		We've received reports like that, and some people don't get any results whatsoever.
		So I think the people doing the research have to re-evaluate the statements that they're making about colloidal silver.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I tend to agree with that.
		Even if there was a placebo effect, I mean, I was a real believer when I took it.
		Even the placebo effect didn't work for me.
		One would assume that your brain in some way could affect your immune system, maybe strengthening it because you think, my God, I'm near Superman here.
		I've got this stuff in me.
		There's no way any virus is going to get to me.
		Wrong O. It got to me and put me down for longer, and I've been down a long time.
		It was the flu, actually.
		It really got to me.
		So, you know, there are a lot of claims that this colloidal silver kills viruses.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		There is no evidence.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		There have been no studies done with respect to that, and there is no evidence of that whatsoever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, the people that make those claims are full of false claims.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		False claims.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, look, it is now at a point where I give guests frequently a choice.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You can either stay and speak with the general public for another hour, or you may go to sleep.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'd be happy to stay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Stay it is, then.
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		We are headed toward the top of the hour.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Somebody has sent me a very nice Millennium Master logo.
		You've really got to capture that picture on my website, the webcam.
		I'm going to leave it there so that the nation's press can get it and properly vilify me through the year.
unidentified		At least I'll have something good to work with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Stay right where you are.
unidentified		Right like City, gonna set my soul, gonna set my soul on fire.
		Got a whole lot of money that's ready to burn.
		So get those stakes on fire.
		There's a fountain free weapon with nothing.
		They're all living in the devil maker.
		I'm just a devil with the people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		for all the CES people coming into Las Vegas, just over the hill from me.
unidentified		I wish that there were more than 24 hours in the day.
		There are.
		Even if there were 40 more, I wouldn't sleep a minute away.
		Oh, there's blackjack and poker and the roulette wheel.
		A fortune won and lost on every deal.
		All you need is a strong heart and a new steel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's us.
unidentified		Even Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, all the CES people coming in to concentrate on nothing but electronics.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All I can say is, good luck.
unidentified		All I can say is, good luck.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, it really is true.
		You can use the truster in your social life, but there really are certain cautions that most of you should be aware of before you do that.
		I bet that's in their manual.
		It's a very powerful instrument, and I'm not saying you cannot or should not apply it to your social life, but it's kind of like going to Las Vegas.
		All right, Michael, welcome back.
		Let's see.
		Let's just start right in and devote as much of the hour as we can.
		Oh, there is one.
		I want to read you this one, Fax.
		And Mike, would you believe this?
		Would you believe this?
		This last weekend, I saw a robin in my backyard.
		I live in Michigan.
		I thought it was a little strange, brushed it off as just a freak incident until the next night on the evening news.
		Then the weatherman on the 11 o'clock news said he had seen a robin in his yard.
unidentified		He took a picture of it and showed it during the broadcast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Robins have always been a sign of the beginning of spring.
		That's in Michigan.
		You know how cold it is up there right now.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, as a matter of fact, I grew up in North Dakota.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		And as a kid, you know, you didn't see robins in the winter.
unidentified		And this is January.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you just didn't see them.
		But, you know, as I got older, then things like that started happening.
		I have seen robins in the middle of the winter appearing more frequently when I did live back there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Any guesses?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		You know, it's the same thing.
		I mean, look at the proliferation of our electromagnetic technology right now.
		I mean, there are military radars everywhere.
		There are cell phone systems.
		Everything is going toward microwave.
		Everything is electronic communication.
unidentified		I mean, that has to be affecting our environment.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's going to be affecting our environment.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		It's going to be affecting animals that use, that we don't know how they navigate yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And even ourselves.
		I mean, we are, after all, animals.
		Mammals.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, certainly is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Every reason to expect that if it would affect homing pigeons or it would affect whales or whatever, then it might affect us, too.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		It has to be affecting us in some way.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		There is a lot of research being done on that, but it's difficult to prove, and that's why you don't see a lot of that in the mainstream.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you can almost lay a bet, one that would yield you some good money in Vegas, it's going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air with Michael Thoreau.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm Hal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's who you are.
		From where?
		Katati.
unidentified		I'm from Cotati.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Cotati, where is Kotati?
unidentified		Cotati's out in California.
		Okay.
		But I've got two things, you know.
		Michael, we'll talk about etheric physics in a moment.
		Mr. Bell, I wanted to thank you for not only protecting the whales and Sussex, but also the Isle of Man.
		Because we're all islands on this planet.
		And your entertainment broadcasts bring us more together as humans.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're welcome.
unidentified		Now, Michael is about this etheric stuff.
		Eric Dollard presented a lecture on the Tesla radiant energy.
		And he stated that the way to interpret the radiant energy which Tesla entertained was only explained by the ergonomic equations of Wilhelm Reich.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, this is true.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Without getting too technical, he was speaking with reference, I believe, to Reich's idea of cosmic superimposition.
unidentified		Absolutely.
unidentified		You got it.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		And what that entails is when you're looking at two different fields of energy coming together, they have tendencies to form spirals.
		And this is, you know, when you look in nature, you see spiral galaxies forming.
		You see it's basically the vortex.
unidentified		I think the Steiner also saw spirals.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Steiner talks about this as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, here's where Millennium Master Bell asks about crop circles.
unidentified		Now, Doug and Dave did some.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Other hoaxers, I'm sure, have done many.
		But, Michael, you're in the field, so you know there have been photographs of crop circles that, at least for me, are completely inexplicable in terms of a couple of guys with boards and chains, or even a group of guys with boards and chains, and you know of the work of Dr. 11-Good and so forth and so on.
		So I don't dismiss crop circles so simply.
		They are swirls.
		I mean, we were just talking about swirls and energy that we don't quite fully understand.
		Crop circles probably fit in there somewhere, don't they?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Researchers that have been investigating crop circles since the modern beginning of the appearance of crop circles know what is authentic and what isn't.
		It's very easy to tell.
		I have been in contact with several people who have gone over there.
		I've never seen one myself.
		But we're in contact and talk about these things quite a bit, and they know the difference, and there is no explanation whatsoever, physical, mechanistic, conventional explanation for what was happening.
		Now, there's a lot of people hoaxing them now, certainly, but the original ones that you saw usually appeared as one large circle, maybe a couple of what they call hole shots next to the circles.
		And they weren't the intricate patterns that you see these days.
		And many suggest, many crop circle researchers suggest that those are the, you know, that was the only time that we were seeing some kind of unexplainable phenomena.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, at least for some of it, there's something real going on, whether it be Mother Nature at work in some way or some other force, something is going on that doesn't involve Doug and Dave or a couple guys like them.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there's been so many explanations.
		There have been physical explanations Presented.
		There have been some wild explanations presented.
		There's the idea that it's some kind of a pattern created by the landing of a UFO.
		There are explanations too numerous to list, and yet no one has really figured out what they are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Some lady called me the other night with one that I rather entertained a little bit.
		She said that she thinks that the bug world, insect world, I mean, here we've been, before we chuckled too much, we've been talking about plant consciousness, intelligence, whatever you want to call it.
		Bugs, insects.
		Suppose they wanted to communicate something to man.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		I heard that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		I certainly did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that one kind of stopped me a little bit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I said, whoo.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		You know, there have been theories presented that it's actually coming from something in the earth, that nature is producing it.
		It may be insects.
		I doubt it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I just thought it was a good guess.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it is a good guess.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		I think there would be some evidence of that, you know, some evidence other than what we're seeing in these, you know,
art bell ▲ ● ▼		really well documented now, that can only be almost reproduced by putting wheat in a microwave oven and cooking it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually pulling the crop out and putting it in a microwave oven, but even that doesn't quite produce the same molecular change.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		I'm familiar with that, and I would suggest that that's one of the ways to identify whether or not one of them is real.
		I understand some crop circle researchers have been fooled in the past, though, and have even stated that we did the classic tests to, the molecular tests.
		I'm not exactly sure what the test is, but we did all of the tests on it, and it's definitely an authentic crop circle.
		And then someone came forward and said, well, no, here's how I did it.
		I have the film of it.
		And unfortunately, I don't know what to say about that, but I think that's definitely a valid test.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can't imagine what would be producing essentially a microwave-level signal that could affect a wheat field over a mile or more.
unidentified		It's just a real puzzle to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess it'll remain that way.
		Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Michael Thoreau.
		Hi, where are you?
unidentified		Hi, this is Karen in Houston.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Karen, you're going to have to talk up good and loud for us.
unidentified		Okay.
		Michael, I know a lot of what you're going on is information that you glean from individuals who've had their own personal experiences of things, I'm sure.
		I would like for you to talk a little bit about the authority that is given to the government, the military, and so on, and how that compares to an individual experience, the authority of personal experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, I'm not sure I understand that question.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure I understand it fully either.
unidentified		All right.
		A lot of things having to do with personal experience are discounted by others, usually large groups.
		You know what I'm saying?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I see the difference between subjective and objective experience.
unidentified		Yes.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I understand that.
		I don't think that we can, and we haven't as researchers ever discounted subjective experience.
		We try to include that in the whole picture of what we happen to be researching at the time.
		We also look at objective or what we would call, well, we have two names for these different types of research.
		There's quantitative and qualitative.
		There's a qualitative experience, which would be the subjective experience or the individual experience, and the quantitative, which is something that is, you're looking at a measurable experience, something that's definitely reproducible.
		And I think there's a big division when you're looking at this kind of research between biological sciences and physical sciences.
		When you get into the biological realm, you start to see things that you can't explain away as you can in the physical sciences.
		And so it certainly needs to be taken into account.
		That qualitative subjective experience needs to be taken into account.
		But I think they should both work together.
		You can't throw one out without looking at the other.
unidentified		Right.
		It seems like the way of things with creation being ongoing and what it is, it's like the creation itself continues through what it has created to communicate, like you were talking about earlier.
		Whether it's, you know, a spiritual, mineral, plant, animal.
		And I kind of feel like the place that we're in here, what we call Mother Earth home, I think it's a conglomeration of all of these things.
		And I don't think we should be so surprised at such things.
		And also, if you would, would you explain what 11-11 is?
		What your understanding is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Oh, there you go.
		11-11.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		11-11.
		It's a date.
		I don't really have any other explanation for it.
		The 11-11 connection?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Could be 11-11 a.m. or p.m.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		It certainly could.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There could be a lot of things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of people ascribe special significance to 11-11 for some reason.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, they ascribe special significance to several numbers of different numbers.
		I tend to try and stay away from numbers specifically and look at geometric relationships.
		And that tends to stay completely out of the relationship of numbers, once you start putting numbers on it or assigning numbers to those relationships, then you're trying to compartmentalize it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, for my little contribution, over the last couple of nights, I've been giving out secret numbers each night.
		And you might be interested to know the response that has drawn.
		I have probably 50 faxes here that have taken the numbers that I have given out over the last two nights.
		And in some cases, there are two full pages of math that people have done explaining the significance of these numbers that I have given out.
		And by the way, the numbers that I've been giving out mean absolutely nothing.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, the point is, do the conclusions that the several equations, that the several equations you've received represent, are the conclusions or the figures?
		Do they all add up to the same thing?
		Is everyone on the same track?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hell no.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I mean, that does prove something.
		I'm not quite sure what it proves about the way we operate, but it proves something.
		I mean, they all arrived at mathematically satisfactory conclusions, but they're meaningless.
		Completely meaningless.
		And so it says something about the way we think, and I'm not sure exactly what.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Michael Thoreau.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hello.
		Glad to see you're still on the air, Art.
		I was worried there for a while.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Me too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Raleigh.
unidentified		I'm listening to you on WRBZ.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In Raleigh.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Okay.
		And I have something that they tie Tesla and the plant and...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can I ask you one?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In Raleigh, are you allowed to smoke in restaurants and bars and stuff like that?
unidentified		Maybe in some places.
		I don't know.
		I'm not a smoker, so I don't really take notice except that I walk into restaurants and they say smoking or non-smoking.
		Ah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Well, in California, there's no such thing.
		There's only one choice.
unidentified		It's non-smoking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's, yeah, go outside.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, with regard to Tesla.
unidentified		Well, Tesla was known for a lot of things, but one of the lesser known was resonance.
		He researched all kinds of resonance, not just electrical, but also mechanical and various other forms.
		And to me, resonance kind of equates with coupled systems, and that, of course, works with radios.
		The transmitter and receiver have to be on the same frequency in order to couple up and work.
		But there's also correlated systems, which express a deeper and perhaps more interesting kind of connection.
		And this is seen in the faster-than-light communications that we've heard about, that when the Germans are sending Bach or Beck over somebody at seven times the speed of light, that sort of thing.
		They're doing it over correlated particles.
		Higher systems can also be correlated.
		It's not just very simple particles like photons.
		Whole atoms can be correlated, and probably molecules and larger systems.
		And so perhaps this has some bearing on the way the plants are able to communicate with each other and things like that.
		I wondered what Michael Thoreau might have to say about all this.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's difficult at this stage to say whether or not plant communications work in the same fashion as electromagnetic communications.
		We're looking at a biological phenomenon, again, versus a physical phenomenon.
		But you start, when you're talking about Tesla and looking at resonance, Eric Dollars, who's been mentioned already, is a researcher that works with us, and he has demonstrated the very same thing, that the faster-than-light communication is possible based on the experiments that he has done.
		And that might be, you know, it might get to a point where those two things can work together, or that you see the same operations in both plant communications and these faster-than-light communications using Tesla-type technology.
unidentified		And the faster-than-light is not an electrical or radio thing, really.
unidentified		It kind of actually relates to the ether that we were talking about earlier.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Eric Dullard wrote a paper some time ago called The Hysteresis of the Ether.
		And, you know, it's very theoretical material, but it definitely relates to that.
		I mean, you know, if you're looking completely for a physical explanation for it, you can't do it.
		You have to get into etheric research.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold it right there.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		Robert Thoreau is my guest.
unidentified		This is Coast to Coast A.M. With
		Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nine from outside the U.S., first dial your access number to the USA.
		Then, 800-893-0903.
		If you're a first-time caller, call ART at 702-727-1222.
		From east of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
		West of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico.
		Call ART at 1-800-618-8255.
		Or call Hart on the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
		This is Coast to Coast AM from the Kingdom of Night.
		That is so dramatic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		After all these years, after having seen that motion picture so many times, it still never changes.
unidentified		It affects me the same way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they did it so long ago, the right way.
		All that silence, all that ballet.
		That's the way space really is.
		you Once again, here is Michael Throw.
		Welcome back, Michael.
		Thanks, sir.
		You're going to have to stay good and close to the phone for me, too.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's so much better.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Call us toll-free at 1-800-618-8255.
unidentified		Oh, no, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, now I'm going to have to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sorry, bleep that out.
unidentified		You made me bleep that out.
unidentified		Sorry, I'm sorry, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we're going to start all over again.
		Your first name is Joe.
		And you are calling from.
unidentified		I'm calling from Opalaca.
		It was founded by an aviator way back in the 20s, and it's just north of Miami.
		It's called Opalaca.
		Okay.
		Make a long story short, Art.
		Back in 1956, I was a punk kid, 15 years old, and I, along with somewhere between 3,000 and 10,000 people, saw an alien spacecraft attempt to land at the Opalaca Marine Air, Naval Air Training Center here, which is now the largest airport, private airport, in the United States.
		And make a long story short, this was a sphere.
		It was like a brass-colored thing that turned red, you know, on and off, had heat coming off it.
		And I'd say it's about the size of the Goodyear Blimp.
		This stand full thing was around here for like 8 to 10 hours during daylight, and then finally was chased off about sunset by some Panther class, Panther-class fighter jets, which were used as training jets, who were leftovers from the Korean War.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is this an incident you're familiar with?
unidentified		Well, I visually saw it myself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, not you, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Michael.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm not familiar with it.
unidentified		Well, I'm assuming that he's heard something about this.
unidentified		This thing's been floating around for years since 1956.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, but what he's saying is he isn't familiar with it.
unidentified		He isn't?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		No, I could probably look through our files and probably find something on it, but we've got, I would say, hundreds of thousands of reports.
unidentified		Okay, well, Michael, let me put it to you very briefly.
		What we have here is something like, and I've always put it to the Aztec and the Incas having seen, you know, large out-sized ships off the coast.
		So the engines reported it to the emperors at that time, the Aztec emperor, and of course the Inca down in Peru.
		And they've seen it.
		They know it's real.
		You know, the first few messengers are killed because the emperor or the Inca at that time in either Mexico or Peru, you know, these guys are not.
		You know, it can't be true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we still kill the messenger today.
unidentified		That's the whole equation that so many people who are, you know, very reliable people, individual civilians, you know, like this one lady called earlier.
unidentified		She reported, what do you think about an individual, a civilian, reporting something as opposed to the United States Air Force in a blue book?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, sure.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Get the picture?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, very clearly.
unidentified		Okay, so now, Michael, when I'm listening to you, I'm listening to an individual who has never really seen something, broad daylight, eight, ten hours, right?
		And they know what they see.
		They have good visual abilities.
		They're normal people.
		And then everybody takes the word of the Air Force as opposed to them.
		And that's what I think art has a real touch for.
		And that's the incredible frustration of normal, ordinary, decent, law-abiding people that have their heads screwed on right.
		And ultra-conservative, they see this, they know what they've seen, and they get a bunch of crap out of the government.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, the caller got a really good point.
		Now, I had a really clear, close-up sighting of something that was completely inexplicable.
		When you have finally seen one of these things yourself, close up, it changes you.
		It has to change you.
		You have to begin imagining things that you didn't imagine before because you had the experience.
		And so that caller is absolutely correct.
		The individual that he described with the head screwed on fairly straight, I don't necessarily put myself in that category.
		But there are many of them.
		And then the government and the Air Force, we might as well ask you about, for example, the great Roswell case-closed news conference with Colonel Haynes.
		You remember Colonel Haynes?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		You mean as far as the Air Force their explanation of it?
unidentified		Yeah, that was ridiculous.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		I mean, anybody must have listened to that and just said, wait a minute, what is going on here?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's like they planned to send Colonel Haynes out and at the end of the day have more people believe than believed before they came out to close the case.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm pretty sure that's what they accomplished.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They did accomplish that.
		Whether it was their aim or not, I don't know.
		But I guess the caller is saying, why should we believe what the Air Force or any arm of the government tells us about these things?
		Why should we even believe it?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a good question.
		I don't, you know, there's some things I think we can believe.
		And when you look at the Air Force, let's say we just take the Air Force as an example, you have many, many different groups within the Air Force you're looking at.
		And you have to think that you've been in the military.
		Air Force, actually, so be careful.
		And I've been in the military, and I know how things work in the military, and there's a lot of disorganization in the military.
unidentified		Ho, ho, ho, ho, ho.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's your putting it lightly.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		And so in some cases, you could be getting the correct story because it wasn't this big group effort to try and discount something.
		You're looking at one place or one group within that particular military branch that gets the information out before anyone tells them they can't say anything about it or something like that.
		As far as this, you know, the Roswell case and what they did with that, I mean, there was definitely an orchestrated effort there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Speaking of orchestrated efforts and all that sort of thing, let's take one second and address, since we're just coming off this Stevens thing, and since we have the EQPEG hoax and other hoaxes, we now have the ufology community virtually destroying itself.
		We seem to be in a period of self-destructive behavior.
		Any comments?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think in many cases you have people that have been into ufology for many years, and they're not seeing...
		There are a few individuals that would like to see something come out that is irrefutable.
		And we've seen things on the internet that have displayed people's intentions to create a hoax.
		There's a thing called Project Mask that was going around at one point where they wanted to create a hoax to see what the reaction would be and to draw maybe government officials to the scene.
		So I think a lot of people that have that desire to see something come out like that may be interested in creating a hoax that can't be refuted and say, here, here's the evidence.
		That's just one idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's one idea.
		And of course, the Internet is making a great deal possible that once was not possible.
		In other words, the anonymous distribution of materials that caused great problems for those researchers trying to be honest.
		Yes, that's the downside of the Internet.
		Okay, West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Michael Thoreau.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Yes, my name is Diana, and I'm calling from the Seattle area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Diana.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		I want to, first of all, congratulate you, Art, on the quality of your show, not only the entertainment, but the vast knowledge and information that you bring to us through yourself and your guests that you have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you be kind enough to turn your radio off, please?
unidentified		My radio?
		Yes.
		Oh, I didn't realize it's on specifically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
unidentified		Okay, thank you.
		I'm not a scholar, so I'm not going to bring any wonderful information to your table, but I would like to ask a couple of questions, if I may.
		Sure.
		Okay.
		Mr. Thoreau, I thoroughly enjoyed the way you've presented all information on all the subjects that you talked about tonight.
		Could you spell your last name and do you have anything in publication that one could get a hold of to read?
		And then my second question, if you have any questions.
		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		I'll spell my name first.
unidentified		It's T-H-E-R-O-U-X.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		And I do have several things in publication.
		You can call us.
		We have a toll-free number.
unidentified		Oh, really?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you should have given that out earlier.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What's number?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		It is 1-888-825-2773.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, that's 1-888-825-2773.
		Next obvious question.
		What do you have in publication that would be interesting for you?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, we publish a quarterly journal.
		It's been going on since 1945.
		I have contributed to a number of books that we have in our catalog, too, and you can get a free catalog from us by calling that number.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We get a lot of calls.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		One other question, if I may?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		I believe you were talking about a little earlier this ELF.
		Is that the extra low frequency item that like out of Tahoe's?
		What I'm curious about is do you have any suspicions or opinions or ideas on whether or not this low frequency hum or whatever it is, does it have any effect on human behavior?
		Or if it's cranked up, would it affect us in any way?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I would say a great big yes.
		Michael?
		Yes.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		We've had reports of people actually committing suicide because they can't deal with the hum.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		So there's a serious problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think it's also been used as torture, hasn't it?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's certainly torturing to some people.
		We hear all kinds of reports that people can't sleep at night.
		It's very torturing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time call our line, you're on there with Michael Thoreau and Art Bell.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hello, hello.
		Hello, hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you're.
unidentified		Hello, I'm Dave.
unidentified		And Art and Mike, it's an honor to talk to you guys.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, Dave?
unidentified		I'm in Illinois, Dewy.
		Okay.
		Basically, I got a lot of questions.
		I got a couple questions about the El Nino, the polar ice caps melting, and all that.
		I mean, isn't that kind of what's happening with everything?
		What do you mean?
		Isn't all that relative?
		The frogs in Minnesota that have got two legs or one leg?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you mean is it all connected?
unidentified		Isn't that all kind of like relative?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As in relatively connected?
		Right.
		All right, good question.
		My answer would be absolutely yes, that the environment is a closed ecosystem.
		How could it not be all related?
		What would you say, Michael?
unidentified		I think it's hard to say that it is related.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		And the reason for saying that is looking at, well, take for instance El Niño.
		We have the Southern Oscillation Index, which goes between cold and warm.
		That's a particular area that affects weather in different areas.
		We see the weather patterns changing.
		Solar activity is on the increase, but that doesn't necessarily mean that is what is responsible for the things that are happening to animals, the things that are happening to our environment.
		Those things may be caused by any number of things like what we're talking about with military applications of low-frequency sonar, radar technologies, any vast number of electromagnetic technologies that could be disrupting things as well.
		I don't know that, of course, those electromagnetic technologies could be disrupting the weather, too.
		So it's a revolving circle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think those people that are doing these experiments care?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Do I think they care?
		I really, you know, when you look at what they say about the experiments, I don't think that they really think they're having a great effect.
		And they certainly don't care because they're getting a lot of money to do the experiments.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, that makes you feel real warm and fuzzy to imagine that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That whatever it is they're doing electromagnetically or with ultra-low frequencies, it might be affecting not just animals, but the entire chain up to human beings, that they don't care because they're getting a lot of money to do it.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, that goes right over into research that pharmaceutical companies are doing, too.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		I mean, when you get into scientific research that has the potential to make these people a lot of money, it's pretty obvious they tend to overlook what's going to happen to the rest of the population.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you remember when they exploded the first atomic bomb?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There were a lot of very reputable scientists who thought it at least possible that there would begin a chain reaction in the air that would actually cause the atmosphere to, in effect, detonate.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		And they did it anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And there was valid mainstream scientific opinion that that would occur.
		And they went ahead anyway.
		Now, obviously, the atmosphere is still here in some form or another, but they went ahead.
		So couldn't we apply that reasonably to what they're probably doing today?
		Same thinking.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think we could.
		I don't subscribe.
		I really try not to subscribe to so much doom and gloom, but there are some things that you can overlook.
		And when you look at the big picture with respect to whether or not science is going to get funding for something or be cut off from it, they're going to go for the funding no matter what the possibilities might be.
		That's what we've seen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		what is the current main mission if you could state one of borderlands the our mission
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		We're trying to incorporate the idea that the qualitative sciences and the quantitative sciences can actually work together as checks on each other so that you can presenting is something that is complementary to nature instead of against it.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		And I really think that's a big part of our goal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I hope everybody will take the opportunity to fly to your website and take a look at what you're doing.
		You've been a great guest.
		It's been an extremely enjoyable evening.
		And two hours ago, free information.
		My goodness.
		The number is 1-888-825-2773.
		Is that a 24-hour number, Michael, or just during the day, or when should people call it?
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Basically, our hours are 9 to 5, but there is an answering machine.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		So it's 24 hours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		24 hours.
		Okay.
		Well, it has been a real pleasure having you with us tonight, and we will have you back again, Michael.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		All right.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		Thanks, Lord.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care, and good night.
michael theroux ▲ ● ▼		All right, good night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you have it, folks.
		Borderlands, Michael Thoreau.
		What an interesting evening, huh?
		Free information.
		The number is 1-888-825-2773.
		Now, just let me promote a little bit of what's going to happen.
		Tonight when we come back, it's going to be completely open lines, which means we'll probably get in all kinds of trouble.
		Just open lines all night long.
		I planned it that way.
		And then of course Friday we are going to have And we did one in 98.
		Now we're going to do one this year.
		And just about everybody who's anybody is going to be with us during the course of the evening.
		And you're not going to want to miss that show.
		As a matter of fact, you're not going to want to miss tomorrow night's show.
		So hot stuff coming up.
		I appreciate your being here.
		And remember, if you're in the media out there, there is now a photograph on my webcam that is going to aid you in writing stories to diss me throughout the year headed toward the millennium.
		I'm making it easy for you.
		It's an outrageous photograph, and I like it so much.
		I've got my black cape with my MM there, and even my crown.
		And it's just, it's the ideal vehicle for tearing me apart to go with your story, media.
		So jump on it while you can.
		From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.

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