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July 13, 1998 - Art Bell

02:27:18

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Malachi Martin - Exorcisms

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	From the high deserts in the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, or good morning, as the case may be, across all these vast time zones.
	Boy, there are a lot of time zones.
	From the Hawaiian and Tahitian Islands out west, eastward to the Caribbean and the U.S.
	Virgin Islands, mornin' St.
	Thomas!
	South all the way into South America.
	North to the pole.
	And worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM.
	I'm Art Velt.
	Great to hear.
	All right, now.
	Malachi Martin, eminent theologian, expert on the Roman Catholic Church, former Jesuit, professor at the Vatican's Pontifical Biblical Institute, is the author of such widely acclaimed national bestsellers as The Final Conclave, Vatican, the Jesuits, the keys of this blood.
	The most recent of his books, actually, that's not quite true.
	Long acknowledged as the premier authority on the subject of possession and exorcism, Malachi Martin is justly celebrated as a, quote, writer of fiery brilliance, end quote, that was the Detroit News, whose, quote, work catches the light like rare Waterford crystal.
	Baltimore Evening Sun.
	Malachi Martin is a familiar figure to millions of you who welcome and speak with him often during his frequent and outspoken radio and television appearances.
	That's putting it mildly.
	I'm holding in my hand his book, Hostage to the Devil.
	It documents the possession and exorcism of five Americans.
	I believe his latest book is actually Windswept House Or maybe not, but I know it is just now coming out in paperback.
	Father Martin, welcome to the program.
	Good morning, Arthur, and thank you very much for having me.
	It's a real pleasure.
	It's great to have you here, sir.
	We don't do it frequently enough.
	Is that correct?
	Is Winswept House the most recent of your books?
	Yes, it is.
	Just as you say, it's just coming out in paperback.
	And it is my most recent, yes.
	All right.
	Windswept House, I have not had an opportunity to read yet.
	But it's my understanding that it's kind of a... How would you describe it as a... as sort of a... expose of the Vatican?
	Yes, of the condition of the prelacy, the governors, the cardinals and bishops that govern this vast, one billion plus member church.
	The Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church.
	It is a study of the condition of that organization as a world organization for spreading its gospel, its faith.
	Is there a way that you can sort of give us a nutshell version of what you consider to be the condition of the church today?
	Yes, there is.
	And let nobody sort of Cavill added in the wrong in the difficult sense of the
	painful sense of the word But listen to it because it seems to correspond with
	reality and after all in the matter of faith and religion It is a matter of attaining
	What is there for the real?
	it is this that the the book really says look as far as organization goes as
	an institution and an organization.
	The vast Roman Catholic Church is on the down slope.
	It is losing steadily and heavily, and over two-thirds of its members, that's two-thirds of one billion people, are being led into a form of belief Which is irreconcilable with the traditional essence and outlook and belief of the Roman Catholic Church as it has been for almost two millennia.
	In what way?
	For over 30 years, the majority of the governors The directors, the managers of this organization have been feeding a form of belief which is not Catholic, which has made compromises on basic doctrines and which therefore have led the faithful astray to their beliefs.
	Well, I'm not a Catholic.
	Can you give me an example?
	Example is, for instance, the purpose of marriage.
	The purpose of marriage?
	The purpose of marriage, yeah.
	The traditional purpose of marriage, according to the Catholic Church, and up to about 1958-1960, was the procreation of children.
	I know it sounds harsh, Art, but that was the doctrine and teaching of the Church.
	Incidentally, there was the fact that married people console each other, communicate with each other in a very special way, by marital relations.
	Correct.
	But since then, The common teaching is that marriage has two purposes.
	First of all, the celebration of the love of the parents.
	And then secondarily, the procreation of children.
	That's not Roman Catholic.
	It should be the other way around.
	The other way around, of course.
	That was the tradition.
	If you want to depart from that, say so, but that's what Catholic doctrine is.
	Then you take human liberty.
	Catholic Church and Christians in general never, in the past, said that you had a right to be wrong in religion, in religious matters.
	So a sort of a big tent approach to religion.
	That's right.
	The new teaching, the new persuasion, although it's never been the official teaching of the Church, it's just that it is a wave of of opinion that has been adopted by a majority is that you have a right to be wrong in religious matters, and that is against the nature of the Church.
	And then the chief one, the chiefest, if I could put it like that, difference is this.
	Originally, up to 1965, the Pope was considered to be the head of the Church In the sense that he had absolute power, which he shared with nobody, in religious matters.
	Not in secular matters, but in religious matters.
	Infallible in religious matters.
	Infallible, yeah.
	And that he alone could dictate in religious matters, under certain fixed conditions, he could determine what people should do and believe in religious matters.
	That has been changed to saying that he and all the bishops, four hundred, four thousand 500 of them share the absolute power together.
	They're all colleagues.
	He is first among equals.
	And this destroys this traditional absolute power of the papacy as the vicar of Christ and as the source of infallible teaching.
	So, in essence, it seemingly democratizes the Church.
	That's right.
	And then there are applications all over the place.
	And the fruit of it all is the tearing to shreds of traditional belief, whether it's the Blessed Sacrament, that is the presence of Christ in the sacrament of the Eucharist, as they call it.
	Catholics believe, strictly speaking, that here we have the body and the blood and the divinity of Jesus on Earth with us by means of a sacrament.
	The new belief is not like that.
	It holds that somehow or other we have another type of presence which is not sacramental.
	So you go on down the line and you find that a good deal of this one billion plus members have been led quietly, unprotestingly, unknowingly into another form of belief which is not Catholic.
	Douglas Goldstein, CFP®, is the director of Profile Investment Services and the host of the Goldstein on Gelt radio show.
	He is a licensed financial professional both in the U.S.
	and Israel.
	Securities offered through Portfolio Resources Group, Inc., Member FINRA, SIPC, MSRB, NFA, SIFMA.
	Accounts carried by National Financial Services LLC.
	Member NYSE®, a Fidelity Investments company.
	His book Building Wealth in Israel is available in bookstores, on the web, or can be ordered at www.profile-financial.com.
	About 25-30% are fully practicing.
	The others pull along in moments of crisis and war, etc.
	They come back to the fold.
	Well, in the Catholic Church today, if you take Europe, ancient Catholic Europe, the average is 5%.
	Who even think of going to Mass once a year, or going to confession once a year, or praying Regularly.
	Well, there are those, Father, who would argue that it is because the Church has not become progressive.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	That these numbers are down, that people are rejecting.
	That's right.
	They would argue that.
	But, you see, modernization and being progressive has come down to the adulteration and the dilution of these basic dogmas.
	And that's why the attendance is bad, the practice of faith is bad, and all the chief moral points on which Catholics were adamantly fixed, like marriage without divorce, contraception, against contraception, against abortion, against sterilization, against homosexuality, All those points are moot at the present moment in the majority of so-called Catholic lands.
	How inside the church did this occur politically?
	This occurred politically because for three years, between 1962 and 1965, before the majority of people who are listening probably were born, a meeting took place in Rome called the Second Vatican Council.
	And the people who emerged as the controllers of the discussions, it was attended by all the bishops of the church at that time, and that was roughly 2,800 bishops.
	The people who controlled their discussions set out to do precisely that, and they were cardinals and bishops and officials.
	They had these ideas.
	They had had them for a long time.
	And by parliamentary stratagems, and by very careful assembling of coalitions of votes, they got these doctrines, these new outlooks, voted in as official dogmas and teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.
	And we had a Pope then, Pope Paul VI, who in his weakness went along with them.
	And that's what happened.
	And you see, remember this, that Catholics were taught to obey what they were told.
	Right.
	And suddenly their bishops turned around and said, now you will do this, now you will hold this, now you will believe in this way.
	And the majority said, all right.
	Unthinkingly, besides, the doctrines, the newly formulated doctrines are far easier to observe than the old ones.
	There must have been a significant war in the Vatican over all of this.
	It was a war to the death.
	It was a real internecine war between the prelates, between the bishops and the theologians.
	But the traditionalists, the conservatives, were far less skillful in parliamentary behavior as regards arranging votes and Changing men's minds.
	They were far cleverer than the traditionalists were, so that the conservatives and traditionalists lost out and found themselves completely outmanned and outmaneuvered.
	And as I say, above all, they had a Pope at that time, Pope Paul VI, whom I knew, whom we all knew and liked, who was extremely volatile and was inclined to go along with anything that helped modernize the Church.
	And who made a famous speech in 1965 at the end of this long, vast three-year meeting, saying that the purpose of the Church was to join man in building the human habitat and creating man's paradise on Earth.
	And that art was the first time in its two millennia history that the Roman Catholic Church said, look, I am at your service completely to build up a material civilization.
	That was the death knell of the old Well, you mentioned the severe decline in attendance.
	Many years have gone under the bridge since this liberalization.
	If the intent was to bring the flock back, then have we not come far enough to declare it a failure?
	Yes, but there is in question here Douglas Goldstein, CFP®, is the director of Profile Investment Services and the host of the Goldstein on Gelt radio show.
	He is a licensed financial professional both in the U.S.
	and Israel.
	Securities offered through Portfolio Resources Group, Inc., Member FINRA, SIPC, MSRB, NFA, SIFMA.
	Accounts carried by National Financial Services LLC.
	Member NYSE®, a Fidelity Investments company.
	His book Building Wealth in Israel is available in bookstores, on the web, or can be ordered at www.profile-financial.com.
	and are unfaithful to its precepts, you lose it.
	Now faith is not a quantum.
	It's not something you put in a box.
	It's a dimension of the soul affecting your mind and your will and your memory and therefore your sensuality and your entire being.
	If you diminish it to such a point that you compromise its basics, It slowly is dissipated.
	You can lose your faith.
	And once you lose it, you don't know you have lost it.
	You do think the other fellow who is stuck to his faith is a fool, observing things that he needn't observe.
	But what has happened to you, not you Art, but what has happened to one, is that one's faith has been diminished to the point of no return.
	And therefore you don't know you're wrong.
	In other words, the old principle, if you lose your faith, you don't know you've lost it.
	And once you've lost it, there is no guarantee you will ever get it back.
	No guarantee you will ever realize that once upon a time you did believe in certain truths, mordently and fixedly, and once it's gone, well now the faith of millions has been affected.
	In basic things, like the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ in the sacrament, like the absolute position of the Pope, Well, then one must ask, has the Vatican made an irreversible mistake?
	fixed conditions, the nature of marriage, the purpose of man, human liberty, it embraces
	the entire gamut.
	Well then one must ask, has the Vatican made an irreversible mistake? That's what you seem
	to be saying.
	Yes. The Vatican has made an irreversible mistake as regards the structure of the church
	and as regards the way doctrines should be taught. But when we say Vatican, though, you
	One is that materially, it's a gulf-sized area on the bank of the river Tiber in Italy
	and there resides the pope and his officials, about 4,000 or 5,000 of them.
	That's the Vatican strictly speaking and it's in Rome.
	It's a part of Rome, the capital of Italy.
	The Vatican religiously is this collection of officials and bureaucrats, technically
	speaking, under the direction of the pope.
	Bye.
	Now, what has happened is that power has been transferred from that bureaucracy and that papal organization to the bishops themselves.
	They make decisions which the Vatican doesn't like.
	But it has no longer any power to change.
	Alright, Father, hold on, we're at the bottom of the hour.
	When we get back, we're going to ask about a specific name.
	Name names.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	Alright, Father Martin, in Winswept House you refer to a cardinal, a certain cardinal, not
	by name.
	Yes.
	Well, would that name possibly be Cardinal Casarelli?
	He is never there, yes, the character of Cardinal Casarelli.
	By the way, this Cardinal you just mentioned, Casarelli, has just died.
	Passed on, yes.
	He's passed on, as we say.
	So then we can perhaps safely mention his name.
	Yes, I think so, with reverence, no matter how different.
	We are an opinion from him.
	We must give him a certain amount of reverence because he was a Prelate.
	And what role did he play in these changes?
	He played a capital role because he was the equivalent of what you would say the Foreign Minister and the Secretary of State and Chief Advisor to at least two Popes.
	He had tremendous influence in molding the attitude of the Vatican as a power, because
	it is a power, to the communist empire of the Soviet Union and then by derivation on
	the ordinary activity of ordinary Catholics and his view was extremely brilliantly inculcated
	and practiced but with disastrous effects, because in effect he accepted the status quo
	in the Soviet countries where Catholicism was suppressed and where its representatives
	were imprisoned and killed and tortured.
	And he was an extremely rigid man as regards devotions and as regards beliefs.
	He had no use, for instance, for a central belief of Catholics today, which centers around a small town in Portugal called Satima.
	The revelations of Fatima and the miracle, which is a genuine miracle by all accounts, in 1917 taking place in Portugal, which is a very influential event in the life of the church.
	He was secular-minded compared to his predecessors in that post, and his influence was enormous.
	So then the unnamed cardinal in Windswept House is Cardinal Casarelli?
	Yes.
	To a large extent, the career of Casarelli is mirrored in what we say in the Windswept House about a man called Maestro Ianni.
	That was the name that this man had, to a large extent.
	The effect was disastrous because he implemented the policy of live and let live with the communist regimes.
	Well, going back even further, there was also the sound of clinking glasses with the Nazis, was there not?
	Yes, there was.
	Catholic Church clinking glasses in the Kremlin with those who at that same time were persecuting
	his fellow co-religionists throughout the Soviet Empire.
	Going back even further, there was also the sound of clinking glasses with the Nazis,
	was there not?
	Yes, there was, but that was never the Vatican.
	The Vatican never clinked glasses with Nazis.
	There was continual friction because the man in charge of the church at that time was a man called Pacelli, Eugenio Pacelli, better known as Pius XII.
	And he abhorred the Nazis.
	And he abhorred fascism as such.
	And he did his best to condemn them.
	In a very difficult situation, probably a lot of our listeners are acquainted with the controversy about Pius XII, the Pope, but that he ever had any love, whatever, for Hitler's company is an established fact.
	He had none, ever.
	And there was no clinking of glasses.
	Now, individual clergymen did, but they were always reproved by him, and if possible ousted from their If these changes, as you have described, are irreversible within the Church, then where is the Church going?
	In one word, underground.
	Underground?
	Underground, yes.
	The structure as it is, is creaking and groaning and not carrying the weight.
	And there is springing up Both in North America and Latin America, and in Europe, a network of Catholics, priests, bishops, nuns, laity, who are reviving all the ancient teachings, and living by them, and refusing to cooperate with anything they consider to be out of line, anything they consider not to belong to the
	The deposit of the faith, the traditional faith.
	Now, to be awfully frank with you Art, and to be frank with all my fellow Catholics throughout the world, at the present moment, that network probably includes, what, about 10 million practicing out of 1 billion.
	But it is most potent, and the best proof of its potency and its power and its promise is the fact that it is hounded and condemned and excoriated by the officialdom of the Roman Catholic Church.
	So then, what do you ultimately see occurring?
	I mean, you've got an underground, a fractional portion of the church underground.
	Will it survive?
	Will it build?
	It will survive and build and flourish, but in the meantime, The external presence and the influence of the Catholic community, if you can speak of such a thing nowadays, that presence in the public square, in the public market of ideas and organizations, that is going to diminish and diminish and be negligible to such an extent that today, if you examine any country, even North Korea,
	or Albania, two dreadfully distressed lands at the present moment, but in all the other
	countries anyway, you can safely say there are three components.
	One is the government.
	The government is always important nowadays.
	It used to be, but now it is terribly important.
	Number two, you have the business community and the business community in many countries
	is far more important than the actual government of the elected officials if the officials
	are elected.
	Number three, then you have a gaggle, a rabble of organizations.
	Everything from the International Fireman's Union, to Mothers Against Drunk Driving, to the Catholic Church.
	And they are competing in the public square with diminishing shares going to religion, especially Roman Catholicism.
	Because Roman Catholicism does not belong to the mainstream thought today.
	If you examine, for instance, the emerging EU, the European Union, it now has laws that are intolerable for Catholics.
	Every member of the Union must, according to the laws of the EU, the European Union, which is just coming into existence economically and politically, they must have laws promoting abortion, permitting abortion, permitting contraception, permitting divorce.
	They must give equal rights to homosexual marriages.
	That all these things are unbearable in a world in which Catholicism reigns.
	But now, as different from 50 years ago, 60 years ago, or 100 years ago, the Catholic Church is just one more member of these NGOs, non-governmental organizations, competing in the public square, with decreasing returns, because the doctrine does not fit modernization.
	Now, what is the future?
	The future is a diminishing socio-political and socio-cultural effect of Catholics, the dispelling of anything like a potent Catholic community, and the existence of Catholicism in its traditional form underground, in the sense that it's private and practiced quasi in secret, And out of the public view, because the public doesn't like it.
	And there will always be, not always, but there will be for quite a long time, a public facade in which there is a group of officials, bishops, priests, all the way up to the papacy, who will maintain the exterior facade, but the power will be gone.
	Interestingly enough, The future of the papacy is different because of the power that the papacy exerts as a center.
	That's a wider question.
	You're saying it will be different or is different?
	It really will belong to the mainstream.
	There is very little difference between it and the other Component members of the socio-political body.
	Are you suggesting the Pope has been reduced to nothing much more than a figurehead?
	Yes, I am.
	That is what I am saying, and that is the fact.
	That is in actual effect on politics and on culture.
	There no longer is really a Catholic influence in this country, or in North America, or in Latin America.
	There's no longer any real influence at all.
	and it's a diminishing influence that they do exert and every year brings defeat after
	defeat after defeat.
	For instance, take a very prevalent example of art.
	There's a play called Corpus Christi by a playwright, very well-known, Terence McNally,
	Irish origin of course.
	The plot is roughly that you have a central figure called Joshua which is Jesus and he
	has 12 disciples and he has homosexual relations with those disciples in the play.
	Now, for the Roman Catholic doctrine, for Roman Catholic believers, this is blasphemy.
	And yet there is no way Roman Catholics can stop this, can get it removed.
	The more they talk about it, the more publicity they give it.
	And that is the big difficulty, that there no longer is any respect, veneration, for central doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church.
	Well then, Father, if all of this is true, and so much of the world is Catholic, in name at least, then what effect would you imagine this to have on society in general?
	It's a much broader question.
	If we're going to be accepting now the unacceptable previously, how will this change society, or is that already underway?
	That's already underway, Art, and the effect is a diminishing return in moral influence.
	In other words, what is said by the Church no longer carries the weight it once did.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	For instance, there's no doubt about it that the majority of Catholics in Northern Ireland Our believers.
	Everybody seems to accept this.
	It is true.
	But in no way has that really influenced politics.
	No more than the Protestantism of the Orange Men, their counterparts in Northern Ireland, has that influenced their morality.
	Yeah, what a mess over there right now.
	A real mess.
	But the point I'm making is that neither the Catholic Church nor the Protestant Church has any influence over the behavior either of the IRA The Irish, or the Catholics, or the Protestants.
	So then, minus this influence, what effect do you see it having on society?
	A destabilizing effect.
	Because, look in the absolute order, supposing imaginatively, in our imaginations now, Art, you and I, and our listeners, we wipe out the existence of the Catholic Church, that no longer is the Catholic Church existing in this hypothesis.
	No pope, no bishops, no cathedrals, no churches, no religious orders, no schools, no academies, no institutes, no influence.
	They simply belong to museums.
	If you do that, if such a happening did take place, a black hole would appear in human society.
	Because the Catholic Church, culturally, socio-culturally, through its Religious influence and its religious monuments and its religious tradition does exercise a restraining hand.
	If that's gone, then all demographers I know say it would be catastrophic.
	Completely catastrophic.
	Just as if, for instance, in Arab lands, from Algeria to Indonesia, Islam suddenly disappeared.
	There would be chaos.
	Because religion does, whether it's Islam or Catholicism, in their particular land, do introduce a socio-cultural balance.
	And that is why real enemies of the Roman Catholic Church, and the Roman Catholic Church has real enemies, never wanted to destroy the organization.
	It's too valuable as a socio-cultural and socio-political stabilizer.
	They wanted to control it.
	If it no longer has that value, Then will the same restriction on its destruction remain?
	Yes, it will.
	It will.
	And of course, nobody can predict the future.
	Nobody can say what is going to happen in 2020, 2030, 2050, and 3000.
	We don't know even if we will attain that age for the Church, or for the human race.
	If we will go through most of the next millennium, we don't know.
	But we can safely say certain things, That the diminishing return of the influence of anything like a Catholic community forebodes, or bodes simply, bodes a terrible absence in social and political life.
	Are we to imagine at some point homosexual priests?
	Are we to imagine the ending of the institution of marriage as we have known it?
	How are we to imagine a church that will accept anybody's conception of God and religion and how it was and how it is?
	We have it already.
	To a large extent, we have it already.
	in certain dioceses in the United States, the diocese being the locality governed by
	a bishop, there are married priests living with their families in contravention of the
	law of the church of celibacy.
	There are homosexual priest organizations here and abroad and in Latin America.
	There are women priests, that is, women who have undergone ordination ceremonies and who
	faithfully say what they call mass every so often, investments with the chalice, etc.,
	with the usual accoutrements of Roman mass.
	There are bishops who openly flaunt the authority of the pope and the basic dogmas of the church.
	We're well along our way.
	Bye.
	There is, too, which we must keep on saying, there is a large body of Catholics of that one billion plus membership, a large number of Catholics who groan beneath this, who know it's wrong, but who can't do anything about it.
	Because again, The organization of the Church is very tight, and if you start at the Pope and go down to the smallest little parish priest stuck away in the smallest little parish, you will find that in no position of authority anywhere in that vast network of organizations of bishops and priests and organizations and committees and dioceses and parishes, in no place is there one traditionalist.
	They have all been outed and ousted.
	Outed and ousted.
	So the prognosis is bad from the point of view of socio-political presence and socio-cultural influence.
	Now what will happen after that is, one can hypothesize, but that's the situation.
	And that's really the purpose of Windswept House as a book, to expose all of that.
	That's right, Windswept House, and it took place in the 20 years Chiefly in the 20 years of Pope John Paul II, whom many people describe as a conservative and traditionalist.
	I understand that Winslow House is available nationwide in bookstores, or it ought to be.
	It ought to be.
	But then I guess some people have been unable to find it.
	That's right.
	I can give, if you permit it, I can give an address where they can always apply for a
	copy of the paperback.
	It is there for Jamalake Martin, care of post box P-O-B 295, Lodi, Wisconsin, 53555.
	They will always get a copy by corresponding with that address.
	I repeat that again, P-O-B 295, Lodi, Wisconsin, zip code 53555.
	How much trouble are you in with the church?
	Well, you see, this is a very interesting point about it.
	I go, I visit Rome, I see the people I want to see, including John Paul II, not as often as I used to, because the fact that this Pope's health is precarious.
	And besides, he is surrounded by people who not only dislike me, but dislike him.
	One man whom I know sees the Pope professionally in the health field, will tell me constantly, look, when I see the officials around him, there's more hate than affection.
	For the Pope?
	Than respect for this man.
	All right.
	Father Martin, hold on a moment.
	We'll pick up on this when we get back.
	And I've got some very, very provocative questions to ask Father Martin.
	Then I'm going to turn him over to you, folks.
	We're going to get the lines earlier than we normally do with Father Martin, because we haven't done it in the past.
	Don't touch that dot.
	Alright, to summarize the first hour with Father Martin, Father Martin is a conservative within the Church, even a fundamentalist.
	He suggests that the Church has irreversibly begun to move away from all of its original teachings and tenets.
	Irreversibly so, once again.
	And that this will produce changes, of course, in society because the Church, not only the Catholic Church, but churches and religions worldwide, have been pillars on which societal behavior And I think that pretty well sums it up.
	Windswept House is a novel.
	It is fiction, except it isn't fiction, is it, Father?
	No, it's not.
	But it's far easier and allows some room for your imagination and therefore for explanation of what is happening, the dire happening, To the Roman Catholic Church, which up to, what, 40 years ago was a monolith in society, Europe and the Americas especially, but worldwide too.
	And to describe this, of course you're going to walk on several people's feet, and you're going to have to discuss existing people, which one must always do with reverence, Douglas Goldstein, CFP®, is the director of Profile Investment Services and the host of the Goldstein on Gelt radio show.
	He is a licensed financial professional both in the U.S.
	and Israel.
	Securities offered through Portfolio Resources Group, Inc., Member FINRA, SIPC, MSRB, NFA, SIFMA.
	Accounts carried by National Financial Services LLC.
	Member NYSE®, a Fidelity Investments company.
	His book Building Wealth in Israel is available in bookstores, on the web, or can be ordered The factual situation by imaginative processes.
	And, um, this is an example of what they call a faction.
	Well, would you go so far as to say that within, uh, portions of the Vatican there is virtually a Satanism?
	Oh, no doubt about it.
	No doubt about it.
	Then why walk so carefully?
	Because eventually First of all, there is a thing called scandal.
	Scandal in the sense that sometimes to tell the naked truth to people is so shocking that it is destructive of them.
	If you can point the way to the truth and indicate, if they wish to search themselves, they can find the truth, it's far more effective.
	Than overwhelming them with such bad news that they lose heart.
	People must have a good motive for existing.
	At least they must think they have a good motive for existing.
	No man can exist on nothing.
	He must have some motivation.
	And you can destroy the confidence in life by painting an utterly accurate but bleak picture.
	So, no, one must be careful.
	One must not scandalize in that sense, but one must try and point to the truth and educate people slowly.
	I have beautiful friends in the Catholic Church and in other churches and in other religions, but talking about my Catholics, I hesitate to disturb them in certain ways, knowing that with wisdom and the years and prayer, Well, unless you expect this movement to remain underground for nearly all eternity ahead, isn't there going to have to be a shock?
	Oh, yes.
	not to completely shock them.
	I think it's a common phenomenon.
	Unless you expect this movement to remain underground for nearly all eternity ahead,
	isn't there going to have to be a shock?
	Oh yes, ultimately yes.
	There's no doubt about it.
	Art, I could say this.
	I dislike predictions as far as the fact that my name, Malachi, is the name of a minor prophet in the Hebrew Bible.
	I dislike predicting that.
	This can't go on for long within the Catholic Church.
	Something is going to give.
	It's going to implode.
	Something is going to give.
	That will be the day of reckoning.
	Can you imagine the mechanism Uh, by which something will give.
	Yes.
	I can imagine the mechanism.
	How?
	Well, without naming names, which is always, uh, tough.
	There you are.
	I could name off, say, in the American bishops, there are about 250 of them.
	Yes.
	I could name off 20 to 30 to 40 who are quite capable of taking up a stance as regards, uh, church morality.
	Yes, a clerical resistance to all advances by the traditional Roman authority.
	I can quite imagine it, and in France, and in Austria, and in Belgium, and in Holland, and in Italy, and in Spain, and in Ireland, Traditionally in Poland, traditional Catholic places, I can see that fire taking place.
	And people say, no, no, no, we're Catholics, but we don't share your opinions.
	And going their way, which of course will be fragmentation and complete destruction of church unity, such as it is.
	Could there be a complete schism?
	Well, that is the part which It saddens one's heart.
	Schism is a very interesting thing.
	Schism means this, that you and I, who believe the same truths, the same religious dogmas, we differ as to authority.
	Yes.
	That's schism.
	And I have beautiful schismatic friends in the Greek Church and the Russian Church, and in the Protestant churches.
	They all believe the basic truths that I believe, but they will not acknowledge any authority of the Pope.
	Or of the Episcopal line descending from the Twelve Apostles, which Roman Catholics claim.
	And that's quite bearable, that I can see schismatics possibly being saved, finally, and attaining heaven, speaking strictly as a traditionalist Catholic.
	Heresy is something else.
	Heresy is where you and I agree on a majority of doctrines, but we differ about one particular doctrine.
	And again, there are some beautiful heretical friends who are heretics, but whom I respect deeply.
	No, Arch, what we're facing is something much more dire.
	And the Bible has named it already.
	It's called apostasy.
	And apostasy, as defined by the man who really lived through the apostasy, a man called Athanasius.
	In the 300s and 400s of the first millennium, apostasy means that you step away from the basic dogmas of the Christian faith, so that you can no longer be called a Christian or a Catholic.
	We are faced with apostasy.
	Not merely apostasy by scholars, academicians, professors, theologians, but apostasy in the people.
	There is a spreading apostasy.
	This fact that I've got is an example, will serve as an example, and you can address it.
	It's from Tom in Michigan, and he says, Tonight, for the first time, I've got to dispute Father Martin.
	But he's saying we do not have the right to be wrong.
	This goes against all I've been taught.
	I was taught by my Catholic upbringing that God gave each of us free will.
	To say we do not have the right to be wrong means that we do not have free will.
	That we all should just follow blindly.
	That we have absolutely no control over our lives, because we are controlled.
	If you don't have the right to be wrong, it is the pinnacle of contradictions.
	We are all wrong, if there is one, and only one correct guideline, and we would all have certainly sealed our fate, or should I say, our fate has been sealed for us, because we cannot be wrong.
	Which is it?
	Do we or do we not have free will?
	We have free will, but if that free will is correctly defined, that free will is the liberty to choose what is right.
	It's not simply caprice, whim.
	Whatever I want, I do.
	Whatever I want to believe, I do believe.
	That's not freedom.
	The Christian idea of liberty was never that.
	And number two, also, he must remember, it's a very intelligent question, but he must remember that the choice to be made must be made with God's grace, because otherwise we make choices which have nothing to do with God at all, or with the truth of man's existence.
	It's what you consider to be liberty, and liberty is best defined as the ability to do what you should do, to believe what you should believe.
	And you are not free to believe anything that you think is okay.
	You must align that with the revelation as it came through Jesus Christ and His Church.
	If not, you're on the wrong line.
	It's a hard doctrine, But that's Catholicism, and that is basic Christianity.
	The kind of dispute, or level of dispute that you're talking about within the church now, is very severe indeed.
	And the last time you and I met on the air, it was on the eve of two murders in the Vatican.
	It was on the heels of news about the murder of a colleague of yours, an exorcist.
	That's right.
	And both of those stories have disappeared.
	Just simply gone away, and one cannot help but wonder if there is not about to be a war within the church itself, and if we're not going to see more of this kind of terrible, unimaginable violence.
	I think, unfortunately, I must agree with you.
	We are going to see much more of that, because the strain, the strain in the church is going to show.
	It will not be merely indifference, where people simply say, it doesn't matter, you can do what you like, I just don't bother about this Catholic business, this Catholic truth, this Catholic Church, these Catholic priests and laws.
	It's not merely that.
	It's that there is now a mainstream choice in morality and outlook and standards of living That is irreconcilable with Catholicism and with basic Christianity to such a point that it is already a great liability to be a practicing Catholic, to be a practicing Christian.
	It's a big liability in the public square.
	It is difficult, and it's going to get more and more difficult.
	However, as one man said, at the present moment it's dry martyrdom.
	It could become wet, though.
	And then we have outbursts like what happened in the Vatican, which is a dreadful event and a bad omen.
	And we have then the murder, the assassination of at least, not really one art by the way, but three people engaged in exorcism.
	Three?
	Three?
	Yes.
	They weren't publicized.
	The other two were not publicized.
	Have these occurred since the last that we knew about?
	No, one of them before and one of them after.
	Oh my goodness!
	Yeah, but they have not been publicized.
	As you know, there's a general principle in the civil authorities in this country, and it's a good one, in general, that you do not emphasize if you come across deaf.
	And there are obvious signs of Satanist worship, Satanist involution.
	It is not publicized.
	It is not publicized.
	If that part is hidden and kept quiet, because why?
	Well, because it disturbs people.
	Because it is disturbing.
	Because there's also the copycat syndrome.
	There is, yes.
	People do say, well, I'll do that, too.
	You know, the local nutter, somebody says, I better do that, too, because that's getting... Well, with your very fundamentalist views, Have there been moments when you have been unsure of your
	own safety?
	I'm never sure of my safety any longer, for many years.
	In this sense, I know that given certain conditions, I would be off as we say in the general language,
	but at the age of 77, how can you start bothering about that?
	I certainly agree.
	At certain moments, I had a brush with death, which of course left me cold, as death always
	does.
	My hand extended to you momentarily anyway, but I can't say that I was ever in a state
	of fear.
	I can't live like that, or think like that, otherwise I would dig a hole and climb into it and float there after me.
	What's the point in that?
	Father, not long ago, somebody sent me, and I'm kicking myself six ways from Sunday, somebody sent me what they said was the third secret of Fatima.
	I actually read it on the air, and then I somehow lost it.
	If anybody out there has it, please resend it to me.
	Now, it's my understanding that you have taken a vow of silence or secrecy.
	You have read the Third Secret.
	It was shared with you.
	Is that correct?
	It was given to me to read, yes, one morning early in February 1960.
	And, of course, before I got it, I had to take a very simple oath you always take.
	of maintaining the secret.
	So the details of it I cannot communicate, I mean the actual verbiage and expressions.
	Yes, if this third secret of Fatima were made public, could it be the shock that the public, that the Church needs?
	It could be, and that is one reason why it's not published.
	It would affect people in different ways though, Art.
	out of which it's not going to come easily.
	It would be a shock.
	There's no doubt about that.
	It would affect people in different ways though, Art.
	Some people would, on being told that this was authentically the third secret of Fatima,
	they would get extremely angry.
	Oh, I understand.
	Believe me, I understand.
	Very angry.
	Oh, believe me, I understand.
	Father, stand by and we'll get back to you after the bottom of the hour break.
	If anybody has it out there, and I know you do, I would appreciate your emailing it to
	me post-haste, right away.
	Because what I would like to do is read it on the air, and see if Father Martin would have comment on it.
	It might be a way of getting comment on it, or verifying it, if I actually had it in my hand.
	So if you have it out there, please send it to me.
	In the meantime, When we come back, I will ask Father Martin, as much as we're able to, about the third secret.
	It certainly would be a shock.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Well this is Coast to Coast AM.
	Alright, here we go.
	Uh, and I really want to thank the person that transcribed this for me.
	The following is a transcription of what is possibly the third secret amphetamine as read by Art Bell over the air on Coast to Coast AM on 5-14-98 at 34 minutes and 48 seconds into the program.
	And I began it with this preamble, alright?
	I in no way want the following as being authentic.
	I have no way of knowing.
	All I can tell you is, it feels real.
	It is alleged to be the third secret of Fatima.
	You decide for yourself.
	Here we go.
	A great plague will befall mankind.
	Nowhere in the world will there be order.
	Satan will rule the highest places determining the way of things.
	He will succeed in seducing the spirits of the great scientists who invent arms with which it will be possible to destroy a large part of humanity In a few minutes.
	Satan will have his power.
	The powerful who command the people and who will incite them to produce enormous quantities of arms.
	God will punish man more thoroughly than with the flood.
	There will come the time of all times and the end of all ends.
	The great and powerful will perish together with the small and weak.
	Even for the church, It will be the time of its greatest trial.
	Cardinals will oppose Cardinals.
	Bishops will oppose Bishops.
	Satan will walk among them.
	And in Rome, there will be changes.
	The Church will be darkened.
	And the world will be shaking with terror.
	One great war will erupt in the second half of the 20th century.
	Fire and smoke will fall from the sky.
	The waters of the oceans will change into steam, and the steam will rise and overflow everything.
	The waters of the ocean will become mist.
	Millions and millions of people will die from hour to hour.
	Whoever remains alive will envy the dead.
	Everywhere one turns, one's glance, there is going to be anguish and misery, ruins in every country.
	The time draws nearer, the abyss widens without hope, the good to perish with the bad, the great with the small, the princes of the church with the faithful, the rulers with their people.
	There will be death everywhere because of the errors committed by non-believers and crazy followers of Satan, which will then, and only then, take control over the world.
	At the last, those who survive will at every chance newly proclaim God and His glory, and they will serve Him as when the world was not so perverted.
	That's it.
	Father Martin?
	Yes, Art.
	Any comments on that?
	I've listened to that and I suppose the measured response I should give to it is this in two
	parts really, two same statements.
	It is not the text which was given to me to read in 1960.
	There are elements in it which belong in the text.
	So in other words, I'm trying to step as carefully as I can.
	In other words, you're suggesting this is not precisely what you had, but there are elements of what you just heard.
	Yes, there are elements which do belong in the third secret.
	That's about the most measured response I could give to it.
	Okay, that's fine, and I will not ask you to say more.
	Bearing in mind what I just read, Would you consider the third secret to be as traumatic as
	is suggested in what I read or more so?
	More so.
	The central element in the third secret is awful.
	Bye.
	And it's not in that question.
	It's not in the text.
	No, it's not.
	Thank God.
	Now, I guess I would ask this.
	I understand that you have taken an oath.
	That's right.
	But have you considered that the shock that is required to turn things around May be this very serious, and it may be that it should be revealed.
	To your last sentence, my full assent, it should be revealed.
	But here's my difficulty, Art.
	I'm one small little man.
	I have no public authority.
	To do that.
	I do not know if that would be the will of God.
	And since it would have such dire effects on much more than Christians, on many others, I can't make that decision.
	Do you understand what I'm trying to say?
	Yes.
	I can't make that decision.
	I have no I have no assurance that's God's will, and since this is a question of His supreme will as regards the world, the human race, its existence and its continuance and its future, I have no authority.
	Father, in what manner were you shown the Third Secret?
	Because the Cardinal who showed it to me had been present at a meeting held by Pope John XXIII in that year, 1960, to outline to a certain number of cardinals and prelates what he thought should be done with secrets.
	Pope John XXIII, then Pope in 1960, did not think that he should publish the secrets, It would ruin his, at that time, ongoing negotiations with Nikita Khrushchev, the boss of all the Russians, and he also had a different outlook on life, which two years later, opening the Vatican Council, he echoed very succinctly and almost contemptuously.
	In the middle of his speech on October 11, 1962 in St.
	Peter's to the assembled bishops who had come for the Vatican Council and the visitors, the place was crowded, a huge basilica, he derided contemptuously the people he called prophets of doom.
	And there was no doubt in any of our minds he was talking about The Three Prophets of Fatima.
	He was against that.
	There are those within the Church who minimize what is contained in the Third Secret.
	Absolutely.
	And then there are others who don't minimize it at all.
	They exaggerate.
	They exaggerate.
	Yes, they do.
	So without minimizing or without exaggerating, you're telling me that what's in the Third Secret is more horrible than what I just read.
	Yes, it is.
	Because what you have just read, essentially,
	it is the onslaught of natural powers.
	Sure, Satan is walking, etc., like that, amongst men, etc.,
	but essentially it is, as if nature revolted against the human race.
	That's essentially what, through all these terrible catastrophes,
	and just as much.
	And that's not the essence of the Third Secret.
	Bye.
	Not the frightening one.
	Oof.
	Yeah.
	It does beggar the imagination.
	Well, again, in a sense, it would be such a shock that I understand that you have grave reservations about it, but if it would in effect Um, write the church.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I, if it would, but you know Art, I have no guarantee.
	I have no authority to say, yes, this, the net result will be plus rather than minus.
	I have no authority.
	I have no revelation.
	No angel has tapped me on the shoulder.
	I've had no private divine dream like St.
	Joseph or that Joseph in the Old Testament had.
	I have no authority, and I cannot allocate to myself that authority, because I may be putting my foot in my mouth in a mild fashion.
	I may be going ahead of the Lord, and we're supposed to walk, in the words of one Roman saint, five yards behind the Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit.
	And besides that, there's the question of Shock, scandal of frightening people and polarizing my human society to which I belong, and to which I'm happy to belong, because God made me to belong to it as a member of the human race.
	And I cannot do that.
	Not just like that.
	I just can't.
	I wish I could.
	Because in human calculation, yes, this will shock, this will jerk people out, this will fill the confessionals on a Saturday evening, this will fill up the cathedrals and the basilicas and the churches with worshippers kneeling down, striking their breast.
	Maybe, maybe, because at the back of it all are this regnant, reigning, as it were, Catholic truth.
	That nothing like that can happen unless God gives the grace, and I have no authority to presume that He will give me the grace, or give the grace on the occasion of my doing anything like that.
	How much weight, Father, do you give to the entire Sodom and Revelation?
	I consider it to be the key event in the declining fortune of the Roman Catholic organization and the defining event for the near future of the church in the next millennium, the third millennium.
	It's the defining event.
	And that is why strongmen, strongmen, I mean, see, Arch, when we speak about strongmen, the amazing thing about the statecraft people, People who practice the craft of state, like Casaroli, who's just died, or Pope John Paul II.
	It's what people always say about great figures in history, like Napoleon, like Hitler, like Stalin.
	They had a will of indestructible power, and they could oppose the United Wills of millions and make their point of view stick to a certain degree
	anyway until they fell, until they became a cropper as we see in England.
	Similarly, in Rome, there are men with strong wills.
	They are in spacecraft all their lives.
	They are engaged in macro government, not merely of religion but in state.
	They are up there amongst the greats and they will not touch this with a barge pole.
	In what way does the Church have a role in what many see coming as a one world government,
	a one world control point?
	Thank you.
	There are two responses to that, very brief responses.
	One is the response already chosen by the leaders, by the managers, by the prelates.
	by the papacy at the end of this millennium, and then there is what one sometimes thinks will be God's response.
	The response at the present moment is this, beginning with John XXIII, Pope John XXIII, and then with Paul VI, and now with John Paul II.
	The response is, let us cooperate It has joined, as Paul VI said in his famous speech in December 1965, has cooperated with man to build his habitat.
	And John Paul II is an ardent supporter of the tendency to one world government for geopolitical reasons.
	He wants to bring in his brand of Christianity, of course, and Catholicism.
	But he certainly is in favor of it.
	And there's no... When he addressed the United Nations, in his last big letter to them, his salute was this, I, John, Bishop of Rome, and a member of humanity.
	Now this was no longer, let's say, Pius IX or Pius X. Pius X would have said at the beginning of this century, that I am the Vicar of Jesus Christ.
	If you do not listen to my voice, then you are going to be damned forever.
	And we will not participate in any government behavior, in any government plans, which do not recognize the kingship of Christ.
	That is completely absent.
	There now is the policy of cooperation with the formation of the European Union, with the cooperation with the United Nations, And the Vatican and the Church have entered the list in the struggle amongst the Assembly and the General Assembly of the United Nations, and in the non-governmental organizations, what we call the EcoFOCNAGO organization.
	So it's well underway.
	Well underway.
	That is the response.
	Remember, on Vatican Hill, the figure varies from over 140 ambassadors from the nations.
	It is an integral part and has built itself into it over the centuries of our international
	life, and it has its own ambassadors and representatives in over 90 countries, including Russia, including
	Israel.
	It has its representative in Beijing, not quite a diplomatic status yet, but we'll
	get to that.
	All right, Fr.
	Martin, again, referring to what I read, which you said had partial relevance, would you
	imagine that the person who wrote this had been privy in some way to the original text?
	Yes, certainly.
	At least by word of mouth, if not by reading.
	All right, Father, hold on.
	Well, if that's the case, and you would like a copy of this, or you would like to read it, it is now on the website.
	Thank you, Keith Rowland.
	At www.artbell.com.
	What, at least in part, is relevant to the third secret impediment is on the website right now.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	Your phone call is coming next.
	Alright, I'll say for my own edification, that if anybody else has what they consider to be a...
	I would have to say yes, if it were.
	secret of the Fatima, why by all means send it to me.
	I am curious about just one thing, Father.
	If I actually got a copy of the precise text and I were to read it and ask you if that
	was in fact correct?
	I would have to say yes, if it were.
	I couldn't tell you a lie.
	If I wanted to sort of cavil, I could say I can't answer.
	And I'd be able to... Which in itself would be an admission.
	It certainly would.
	Alright, very good.
	Then I'm going to leave it at that and hope that somebody will send me the text and we'll try it out on you.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Hello.
	Yes, Father.
	Where are you, sir?
	I'm in Atlanta, Georgia.
	Atlanta, alright.
	I wanted to comment on the third secret.
	Yes.
	I'm doing a little bit of speculating here.
	I converted to Christianity a couple years ago, but what I came out of was a very difficult religion, being the exact antithesis of Christianity.
	And when I was in that religion, I heard many, many things.
	One of the things that I heard, that I feel strongly relates to this, is with regard to that third secret.
	It has to do with this European system that is coming to pass now, and something that I heard was that there was going to be an unholy trinity that would basically mock the holy trinity coming out of that European system, and basically a super dictator coming out of Germany who would be the beast, and the man of sin coming from France, and basically the Antichrist coming from Well, don't be, sir.
	Don't be afraid.
	It's what I've heard and what I feel.
	I know.
	Do not be afraid, because your fear does not come from God, and your fear is a weapon used by your mortal enemy, the devil, Satan, Lucifer, however you want to call it.
	Do not let it dominate you in the slightest way, but take refuge and hide in the wounds and the passion and the life and resurrection of Jesus, and He will dispel your fears.
	Fear is just a weapon used against you to unbalance your soul.
	Don't let it dominate you.
	Please, do not let it dominate you.
	I will pray for you, and you did come out Of a Luciferian form of religion, and your soul hasn't been destroyed.
	I look very lucky that, unfortunately, there are some people that were left behind.
	I know, but, you know, it's every man for himself when it comes down to this.
	Try to do your best.
	Pray for them, because unless they get grace from Christ, they won't be changed.
	But do not fear.
	All right, caller?
	Yeah, I'm fine.
	I'm just... It's just... You know, the mass media blitz where you keep hearing about, you know, the coming of Armageddon and all this pre-millennium tension.
	A lot of it's been what I've been through in my life.
	I've had a very unusual life, a very spiritual life, which has been very difficult for me to come to terms with.
	And there's been so much religion in my life ever since I was a very, very young child.
	And, um, I've been exposed to so many forms of religion, and it's just, I mean, the things I could tell you that have happened in my life and the things that I've seen, you know, at a spiritual level.
	Yes, let's ask this.
	Father Martin, he mentioned there is so much premillennial tension, and there is.
	There sure is.
	There's a great deal of it.
	Is it justified?
	To a certain degree, no, it's not justified.
	But then, there's The justification arises from this art that I think, if you've done the reflection necessary, there are such huge questions being decided beyond our will, beyond our capacity to touch them.
	For instance, I am a citizen.
	I vote.
	You're a citizen.
	You vote.
	But we know, you and I, But that by the time our vote, which we faithfully record each time there's an election, local, state or federal, or presidential, that by the time it reaches those who make the laws which govern us, it is much diluted because of our political system.
	We know that decisions are made not at the will of the American people, for instance,
	but at the will of the Canadian people, but at the will of people who govern the flow
	of capital and capital goods throughout the world each day on which our world now depends.
	That is such a hazardous situation as we've all learned watching the Asian tigers crumble
	into puppies and the biggest Asian tiger, Japan, faltering when five years ago it was
	threatening our economy.
	Remember that time?
	And now it's not.
	And we have this precarious balance of the European Union.
	Britain is in and it's not in.
	Germany is a great power, but it isn't.
	By the way, France is the most economically sound member of Europe.
	France!
	And not because they won the soccer victory.
	But as somebody said, France didn't win.
	Brazil just lost.
	Well, as a matter of fact, it's interesting you should mention all this.
	Number one, I just got back from Paris.
	I was there during the World Cup.
	Oh, you were?
	I saw the Brazilian loss.
	It was a loss.
	I mean, it was tear-breaking.
	It was an amazing game, and I guess Brazil just didn't come to play.
	No, it just wasn't up to par.
	Something happened to me in Paris that I would like to ask you about, Father.
	What is that?
	I have had, over the years, many, many guests on what is called an out-of-body experience, where people think that their soul or their being actually leaves their body.
	I have heard many descriptions of how this occurs, that frequently there is a feeling of being paralyzed and a large humming sound, and then people will find themselves outside their body.
	I was lying in a hotel room in Paris, and something happened to me, Father.
	There was no humming, there was no feeling of being paralyzed, but never in my life have I experienced this, and I have a hard time finding words to describe, but I'll do the best I can.
	Suddenly, I, without question, accelerated an indescribable speed up straight up into a place that didn't have form and didn't have things that I saw but it had indescribable joy it had it had the most satisfying incredible feeling
	I've ever felt.
	It was very short.
	I was very shocked, very surprised by it.
	It was brief.
	And I came right back that fast, and I woke up my poor wife and sat there saying, I don't know, this was, you know, I've had in my life flying dreams before, and when I wake up I recognize that I have been dreaming.
	I did not dream.
	This is something that happened to me.
	No, that was an out-of-body experience.
	In the technical sense of the word.
	Not that you left your body, but it does happen.
	It's very interesting.
	Sometime you must scribble on a bit of paper the name of the place you were sleeping in and what part of Paris.
	I didn't want to... I didn't... It was so amazing and so startling and so overwhelming that I wanted to have it again right away.
	I didn't want to lose it.
	But you can't.
	You can't recall it.
	You can't call it back.
	You can't make it re-happen all over again.
	No.
	If it's genuine and it didn't, you weren't able to recall it.
	I must tell you, Art, if that does happen to you, it's a privilege.
	And because it is joy-making, and exhilaration-making, and ultimately peace-making and confidence-making, it is from God.
	It's very hard to explain it.
	By the way, you don't try to recall it and you don't try to explain it.
	You do express your thanks in your particular way.
	In your own way, you must express your thanks.
	It will come unbidden and go away at its own pace.
	It is sudden.
	It is intuitive.
	It does belong, it transcends, it's beyond your senses.
	And quite rightly, it had those marks.
	There was no paralysis, there was no... None of that!
	None of that!
	No physical sounds like humming or... None of that!
	That's the marks of... You see, there's a general principle, whom I should explain that to an old master like you, there's a general principle that the discernment of spirits, as they call it, if an experience It brings peace, joy and exhilaration.
	It doesn't breed in you arrogance and pride, but gratitude.
	It brings gratitude.
	When it does, that's from God.
	All good things come from above and from God.
	You can treasure it.
	And by the way, if you want to, there will be a memory of that forever within you.
	Um Don't try and remember it.
	It will come back of its own accord to remind you.
	Whether it's repeated or not is something else.
	All right.
	Bouncing back for a second to the third secret, here's a fact from Bob in Eau Claire, Wisconsin.
	It's kind of rough.
	It says, Art, why would God give this prophecy, referring of course to the third secret, to a select few?
	And instruct him not to give it to his people.
	It sounds to me that it is man who has decided to keep it a secret from the people and not God.
	Can there be any greater sin than this?
	Well, whoever this man is, is on target.
	The secret was meant for the people, not for the Pope, not for the bishops, not for the Holy Office.
	It was meant to be published In 1960, by explicit order, by the mandate of heaven, John XXIII, God bless him and rest him, because he's with God now, in whatever form that is, he decided not to.
	He had his own reasons.
	We think, with all due respect and veneration, etc., etc., etc., that he made a very bad mistake.
	And indeed, what Probably your correspondent from Wisconsin doesn't realize, or perhaps he does, let me remind him, that in 1963, there was a second appearance, this time in Spain, in Garabandal.
	And the opening words of that revelation were, because my sons have not listened to my orders, my mandate, here's what's going to happen.
	And the message was very dire.
	Repetition of the third secret in brief form.
	So, it wasn't the will of God.
	The will of God has been frustrated.
	But you see, let me remind you, and that particular man, that the will of God is frustrated continuously.
	And that doesn't mean it wasn't His will and His will will not work out finally.
	So, it's a pity.
	And eventually, eventually the secret will be revealed.
	And we'll work its way out, but this time painfully.
	Painfully.
	All right, Father.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Good morning.
	Hi, good morning.
	It's an honor.
	Father, I visited your website, and I left a message a while back.
	I don't know.
	You're probably very busy.
	No, no.
	I take all my messages.
	I download them all.
	Oh.
	And go over them.
	I guess I related to you that ever since I was young, I had a sort of a I wouldn't say premonition.
	I don't think it was that sophisticated.
	It was subtle.
	It seems to be without purpose.
	Now, I guess what I'm trying to ask now is, I'm 37 years old.
	I don't have the same love of life that my friends have.
	I seem to have in the back of my mind the sense that, well, it's all pretty much for nothing.
	Now, it isn't depression per se.
	But it is a sort of an intuitive thing that, well, maybe everybody's putting a little more into this thing and they'll never be able to take out.
	That's worse.
	Yeah.
	And I thought to myself, has this to do, perhaps, with a premonition or some sort of sense of what may be coming?
	In this case, we mentioned the Third Secret of Fathom.
	I'm 37 years old.
	Let me ask then, by the time I'm 45, will I see these terrible things?
	If I were to sort of abandon any strict control and give you what I think, and thatís what
	youíre asking, I think since youíre 37, by the time youíre 45, you will have seen
	the worst.
	Now, letís add this into the fact of this following thing in.
	You have an angel, a guardian angel.
	You also have a birthday angel.
	The latter was assigned to you on your birthday.
	The guardian angel was assigned to you when you were just a little zygote clinging to the endometrial wall of your mother's womb.
	They accompany you.
	Some people, they start talking to them very early on.
	Other people, they don't.
	It all depends on the angel and it depends on one, on oneself.
	I would classify this as belonging to your angel's messages molding you, and it may be that God will demand something special of you, since he's given you something special.
	I do not know, sir.
	I don't know you.
	I probably will never talk.
	Sir, we've got to hold it there, I'm afraid.
	I very much appreciate your call.
	Father Martin, hold on just a moment and we will be right back.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	don't touch that and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and
	and and and and and alright uh... what i'm going to do is read just the preamble
	to this and see if uh...
	the good father finds uh...
	identification with this this. It says, ìDo not worry, dear child. It is I, the
	Mother of God, speaking to you and asking you to proclaim in my name the following message
	to the whole world.î In doing so, you will meet strong opposition.
	Be firm in your faith, however, and you will triumph over all opposition.
	Listen and remember well what I am about to tell you.
	Men must become converted.
	They must implore pardon for the sins that they have committed and for those they will commit again in the future.
	You have requested a sign By which all men would understand my utterances given to humanity through you.
	This miracle you have seen at this very moment, it was the great miracle of the Son.
	All have seen it, believers and unbelievers, peasants, townsmen, scholars, and journalists, laymen and priests, and now proclaim in my name.
	And what follows is the secret.
	Does that, Father, sound familiar?
	There is no preamble.
	Well, I'm not sure preamble was the right... No, there is no introductory statement in the actual secret, the text, actual text of the secret itself.
	So you don't recognize what I just read?
	Not as a part of that one sheet of paper.
	No, but it may well be that what follows Well, then let me give you just a little bit of what follows.
	A great punishment will come over the entire human race.
	Not yet today, nor tomorrow, but in the second half of the 20th century.
	What I have already made known at La Salette by the children of Melanie and Maximin, I believe it is.
	I repeat to you, humanity has not changed as God requested it to.
	It has sinned ...and trampled underfoot the gift it had received.
	There is no order anywhere.
	Satan rules, even in the highest positions, and determines the direction of things.
	He will succeed in worming his way even unto the highest summits of the Church.
	He will succeed in seducing the minds of great scholars who will invent armaments with which half of humanity can be destroyed in seconds.
	He will have the mighty among the peoples under his sway, and will induce them to turn out mass production of arms.
	If humanity does not amend itself, I will be forced to let go the arm of my son.
	If the mighty of the earth and of the church do not oppose this, I myself will do it, and I will ask God, my Father, to allow to come over men the punishment of his justice.
	It will then be that God will punish men more harshly than he did with the flood.
	And the mighty and the powerful shall perish along with the humble and weak.
	And it goes on from there.
	Yeah.
	No, it's not the text.
	It's not specific enough.
	The text is very dry and specific.
	But all that is there It's very accurate as regards the general, fatty-mind interpretation of modern history, but it's not the text of the Third Secret that I know.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Where are you, sir?
	This is Bob from Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania.
	Hi, Bob.
	Hi.
	Listen, first of all, I want to thank Father Malachi Martin for appearing on this show again.
	Well, thank God, Bill, for that, Bob.
	Yeah, really, he's the creator.
	Yeah, there are a lot of people I know that are out there that do appreciate you, even though there might be maybe a lot that don't, but I'm one of the ones that really do, and I've been up all night listening to the show.
	It's been great.
	Anyway, what is your website, first of all?
	Because I want to maybe email you.
	My website?
	Hold on a moment, Larry.
	Well, listen, caller, if you're used to going to my website, all you've got to do is go up to the guest area and click on Father Martin's name.
	You'll go right over there.
	Okay, then.
	All right.
	Well, Father Martin, I have, like, a ton of questions I could ask you, but I've got to be pretty selective here.
	Yeah, I think so.
	Okay.
	Let's see.
	All right.
	Did you ever, maybe, make mention anywhere of a warning that's supposed to be given to mankind that came out of Garibando?
	Yes.
	There is going to be.
	But it's not a warning, Bob.
	No?
	We have no word in English.
	It's avertismo.
	In French, it's avertimento.
	In Spanish, it means putting on notice like the sheriff putting up a notice on your front
	door saying, ìYou havenít paid your rent for three months.
	If you donít pay it by the following month, you will beÖî Itís a putting on notice.
	I did have something very similar to that last call that was 37 years old that mentioned
	about that feeling.
	is that what we're going to...
	Could you maybe give a little more emphasis or describe that more, what it could be?
	For one reason or another, certain people have a greater perception of what their angel tells them.
	We don't know why.
	We don't know why.
	We do not know why, but it's in that nature.
	It's always comforting, but it's always admonishing, in a gentle sense of the word.
	Yeah, because it seems like I've lost a lot of the zest for things in the world, and it's like I'm being pointed out of the world into another direction, and I've had weird things happen to me back from 1990 on.
	Have you got a spiritual director, Bob?
	No.
	I know that, by the way, it's a very rare animal nowadays, but find a good spiritual director.
	They do exist.
	At a certain point, Bob, just to finish it up, at a certain point, you just go around in circles, unless you have a spiritual guide.
	Okay, can I just ask you one quick question?
	Go ahead.
	Alright.
	Is it within the church's laws, like, is it possible to have maybe one of your relatives who died and who's maybe now a saint in heaven come to you and tell you something in the manner of a dream?
	Oh yes, oh yes, quite feasible.
	You must be very careful of your imagination and not to be deceived, and then you need
	a spiritual guide for judging those things.
	The principle is this, that your flesh and blood, above all your own bone, have a spiritual
	bond with you that nobody else has, and in the grace of God, and if they're with God,
	All right.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Fr.
	Malachi Martin.
	Good morning.
	Fr.
	Martin, it's an honor to speak with both of you.
	This is Michael from San Jose.
	Hi, Michael.
	Hi, Michael.
	I have three questions for you, Fr.
	Martin, and they stem from your book, Hostages of the Devil.
	I have Winslet House, first edition, hardback, looking at it, but I'm halfway through your other book first, so I can't get to the other one until yet.
	There is a passage in your introduction that says, The Church is the only element in society with the authority and the availing remedy to counteract such manifest evil.
	I'm talking about possession.
	Fine.
	What is it about the Church itself?
	I was always raised with the thought that the Church is the collective sum of the congregation, that the practice is within it also, and the people that make it up.
	No, it's not quite that.
	It is the assembled people who are in the state of grace, sanctifying grace in this life, and those who are in purgatory.
	And those who are in heaven already, they as the mystical body of Christ, because it's Christ who coagulates them all into a mystical being, and that is the Church.
	Now, we have also got an external organization, which Art and I have been discussing tonight, in its sorry condition.
	That's only the external organization.
	The Church itself is this mystical body of believers on earth, in purgatory, and in heaven, and they have Through their prelates, through their authentic prelates, they have the power of control of evil, if they want to use it.
	Now, how is it manifested through those priests, bishops, cardinals, monsignors, to give you, or I should say you, as an exorcist, the power to combat such evil?
	You must have authority from them.
	They must authorize you.
	Otherwise, you haven't got the power, and when you try to exorcise, You'll be caught.
	But if they do... But I mean, I've just been here and listened to you pan on them for two hours, which I believe the Church does need anonymous, so to speak.
	You know, what it comes down to, when I go to Catholic Church in the morning masses of watching the Fathers delegate the responsibility of giving out the Eucharist to other people, to sick people, when they're pawning that off, it makes me wonder, you know, just how serious are they taking certain responsibilities?
	Well, Michael, you know, you put your finger on a very sore spot.
	The difficulty is, first of all, we're not sure at all that the Novus Ordo, the new form of the Mass, is valid.
	And even if it were valid, there are certain laws that the priests and bishops are breaking now, as regards the distribution of the sacrament.
	It's a very complex question, and you can't trust their judgment.
	It's very hard to give you a hard and fast rule for single instances, but you've got to be very careful.
	Well, I promise my next two questions will be a lot simpler.
	In the second story of your book, Heirs to the Devil, it was the Virgin and the Girl, if I'm not mistaken.
	Yes.
	One of the priests, whom you finally entered the story into, suffered irreparable damage as a result of the exorcism.
	That's right.
	Have you ever... I mean, I know you're 77 and you're still alive, but have you ever come that close to having something like that?
	He got his ...his ailment because of a mistake he had had.
	Have you ever come across a situation where you had... Michael... ...come home making a mistake and... Yes.
	I'll tell you something, Michael.
	In general, you never come back from an exorcism the same man.
	Yeah, I read that, but I... You can also put yourself in further jeopardy.
	You do.
	You endanger yourself, but you have to rely on the grace of God to save you.
	Uh, but you do.
	You suffer irreparable damage in one sense.
	Father is asking whether you ever have come close to that kind of disastrous personal situation.
	Yes, I have.
	You have?
	Yes, I have.
	And my last question, I guess, is, in reading Hostage of the Devil, there doesn't seem... I, like I said, I've only read it halfway through.
	I'm right now into Uncle Pato.
	Oh, Uncle Pato's music!
	I'm wondering when we're going to start reading the Malachi Chronicles.
	Are we ever going to get your work, a chronicle listing of some of your cases where you handled them?
	Good question, Father.
	Good question.
	I must tell you, Michael, I bore me.
	I really do.
	I'm bored with myself.
	That's why I keep going away from myself.
	And I find it hard to believe that I should write a personal story.
	I really do.
	So you may not do it?
	I have no inclination at all, Art and Michael, to do it at all.
	As I say, I'm a bore to me.
	I really am.
	And I don't like me in that sense.
	I like me in the sense that I want to go to heaven and be with Christ and the angels forever and all my family, but I don't think I'm interesting in that sense.
	Not for a written chronicle.
	Well, we think you are.
	Very kind of you, Art, for a poor old guy like me.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Hi.
	Good morning, how are you?
	Okay, sir, where are you?
	I'm in Hayward, California.
	Okay.
	I was reading the book, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church.
	The Roman Church, yes.
	And one question I had in that, where you had thought that by the year 2000, let me quote it here, that there will no longer be a religious institution recognizable as a Roman Catholic Church of today.
	We're almost there.
	Right.
	And the question I had was, what's the rush, what's the real hurry to unite with the Orthodox churches that the Pope seems so urgent to connect with them before the year 2000?
	Is there any connection?
	Well, two comments on that.
	I didn't get your name, by the way.
	Timothy.
	Timothy.
	Yes.
	Timothy, two questions, and that's a very relevant question you ask.
	First of all, That idea of ecumenism is something I disagree totally with.
	We, properly speaking, don't want to join with anybody.
	We think everybody should join us, number one.
	Number two, the rush to ecumenism is tied to the concept that my Pope John Paul II, and he is my Pope, has, because his ideal, and remember it well, Because you can interpret his words and his actions in this light.
	His ideal is to form a dynamic, a new dynamic as he calls it.
	Catholics joined with Protestants and joined with Jews and joined by Muslims and Hindus and all believers creating an irresistible force within the nations of the earth.
	That's his ideal.
	That's what he labors for.
	That's what he talks about.
	The year 2004.
	That's why he wants to go to Mount Sinai, and why he wants to go to Ur of the Chaldees, where Abraham came from, and he wants to end up his celebrations in Jerusalem.
	That's this Pope's concept.
	For me, there's no rush at all.
	It's a question of God's grace.
	Right.
	Yeah, I was just interested in that because I know that there's a long connection with the Orthodox churches, where You know, the history of the Church, where you can see a significant difference of the Roman Catholic Church today, when you go back in history, even when you're dealing with the Eastern Churches, it's very... Well, Timothy, you know as well as I do that all Greek Orthodox and all Russian Orthodox are heretics and schismatics.
	Well, that's not the Pope's claim, but I think it was in 1962 where the Pope lifted the anathema against the Orthodox and proclaimed them Well, actually, I think it's this Pope who claimed them as the other lung of the, you know, the two-lung theory.
	Have you ever heard of that?
	I have, Timothy, but that's very nice language.
	Right.
	When you get down to theological fact.
	In fact, though, the Patriarch of Moscow and the Patriarch of Constantinople are both heretics and schismatics.
	And unless they return to union with Rome, they will not go to heaven.
	Well, how can we say that, really, about, you know, the Patriarchs, when actually, you look at the history, where it's the Patriarch of the West, the Pope, who was in heresy?
	Well, no Pope was in heresy as Pope.
	If you give me his name, we'll discuss it, but no, no, there was no Pope who, as Pope, proclaimed heresy.
	And there are two hundred and forty-four of them, or sixty-four of them.
	St.
	Vincent of Larens?
	Yes.
	Well, he had said that the way that we could tell what is the truth is that which has been believed everywhere, always, and by all.
	And at that time, no pope had ever claimed to be prime over all the other bishops.
	Yes, he had.
	No, he hadn't.
	In fact, I have quotes here from Roman Catholics themselves.
	No, no, no, no, no.
	The Pope was going right back to Clement.
	Pope Clement knew Peter.
	And going up to Gregory in the 6th century and onwards, there was always this claim, and acknowledged by the Orthodox Greeks and the Russians until 500 years later.
	But it's the old, old quarrel.
	It's the old, old quarrel.
	In view of the state of the Church and the Vatican and the Cardinals and Bishops that we now know, when the Lord takes this Pope, what do you expect will occur with regard to succession?
	Much trouble, Art, much trouble.
	The prime candidates at the present moment, we all know them, because for the last year and a half, certainly, the most frequent word in people's minds And of course, in Rome, it's conclave, the election of the next Pope.
	And the prime candidates we now know, there are three or four of them, they do not look very, very promising as regards what is needed to pull this organization together.
	What do I mean by pulling together?
	To get something going which is really evangelical, which is really A forceful in the field of morality and religious teaching, and which has the power of God behind it.
	Father, by now a lot of people are going to want to Winswept House, and before we leave this hour I would like you to give the address out again.
	I will indeed, they can... If they cannot find it in a bookstore... They can write to the following address, write to me, careof, post office box P.O.B. 295, Lodi, L-O-D-I, Wisconsin, ZIP Code 53555.
	One more time.
	P-O-B, Post Office Box 295, Lodi, L-O-D-I, Wisconsin, ZIP Code 53555.
	And how much should they include when they order?
	I think the price is something like $24 or $25.
	I can't check that immediately.
	I wish I could.
	It's probably somewhere in the area of $24.95.
	It's in the area of that.
	All right.
	Father Martin, stand by.
	We'll be right back to you.
	Top of the hour.
	I'm Mark Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AF.
	All right.
	Here we go.
	Just a couple of things I want to quickly read.
	One from a friend in Australia, Father.
	Yes.
	Uh, who says, I had a Jesuit priest tell me more of the Third Secret of Fatima years ago in Perth.
	Uh, he said, among other things, the last Pope would be under control of Satan.
	Pope John fainted, thinking it might be him.
	We were interrupted before I could hear the rest.
	Um, any comment on that?
	Yes.
	Uh, it sounds as if They were reading or being told the text of the Third Secret.
	Oh my.
	It sounds like it, but it's sufficiently vague to make one hesitate.
	Yes.
	It sounds like it.
	All right, and then just this one as well.
	This is from Dan in Devonport, Iowa.
	It says, I was told by an old Catholic priest while I was stationed in Asia in the late seventies that in the last days nature will attack everything we have and know and that all food will be gone.
	Starving will be so widespread that families will eat other members of their families, my God, just to stay alive.
	This madness will be so widespread there will be no place that will be safe and no place to hide into all That people who do not believe in God are dead, then life can start anew.
	No, that's not part of it.
	But that first one... Yes, it is.
	And there's a certain element in the second one which is near the truth.
	Okay.
	And I'm sorry to be pushing on this.
	No, no, no, don't be sorry at all.
	I wish to God you hadn't got to push.
	Okay, West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Good morning.
	Hi, good morning.
	This is Joseph from Hawaii.
	Yes, sir.
	Good morning, Joseph.
	Good morning, Father.
	Good morning, Art.
	I have a question, Father.
	I'm a little confused.
	When you say you have no authority to reveal the secret, wasn't the secret revealed to the nun and then on to a pope, and then wasn't it supposed to be revealed to the public?
	At first, and now it's being suppressed by the church?
	Yes.
	It was supposed to be revealed to the public in general.
	Isn't that the authority from the higher entity?
	No, no, that doesn't give me authority.
	Okay, I'm just a little confused.
	It seems like... I'm not clear on the story, but... What he's saying, I think, Father, is that if God's original wish was for it to be revealed then, and it was not, Then is not the authority present now as it was then?
	Well, exactly.
	For it to be revealed.
	I see his argument.
	It's a very forcible argument, and many people would agree with him.
	And with all due respect, Father, if you don't reveal the secret, and if the secret is held, wouldn't the members of the Catholic Church be perpetuating the suppression of the secret?
	Of the truth, yes, of course.
	Yes, of course they are.
	Therefore, it should be told.
	But in the Catholic Church, we work through the hierarchy, beginning with the Pope and the bishops.
	And I cannot take to myself the authority to overrule them.
	I think they should be overruled, but I haven't got the authority to do that.
	I wish I had, Joseph.
	I wish I had.
	But I haven't.
	I haven't got even the authority to authorize exorcisms.
	Unless I have it from a bishop.
	In this case, the Bishop of Rome.
	All right, I understand that answer.
	Authority is a very, very fixed thing.
	Because I have no other guide on this face of this earth except the voice of the Roman teaching.
	The Magisterium Romanum, as we call it.
	All right, Father.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Hi.
	Good morning, Father.
	Good morning.
	My name's John.
	Where are you, John?
	I'm in Miami Shores.
	Miami, all right.
	And I want to thank Father for some of the books he's written, particularly The Keys of This Blood.
	Thank you, John.
	I've always been very interested in politics and world politics, and he filled in a lot of the questions that have always bothered me from childhood.
	And I encourage you to continue with your writing.
	Shall do, please, God.
	I was going to ask about, he may have been a saint, By the same name that you have, Malachi of Ireland?
	Yeah, Malachi, yeah.
	He was a different... He was a bishop.
	And he referred to a final pope, a pope like Peter of Rome?
	Is there anything to that?
	He has a list of popes.
	The only thing about that list of popes is he doesn't say that he has all the popes in it.
	I see.
	But he does refer to the two last popes, and he gives the Latin sort of names.
	Petrus Romanus is the last Pope, and the one preceding him is Gloria Olivi, the Glory of the Olive.
	These are all names, and actually the names Malachi gives to a certain amount of Popes, St.
	Malachi does, they're very interesting names and they always fit.
	For instance, the present Pope, he described as Labor Solis.
	And Labar Solis is the classical Latin expression for an eclipse of the sun.
	And, in fact, the day that John Paul II was born, there was an eclipse of the sun.
	It's a very funny list of names.
	It's not complete.
	That's the only thing, John.
	Now, this talk of making Mary a Cori Demetrix?
	Yes.
	They're not talking of making her that.
	A lot of people say we should acknowledge that she is.
	But there are difficulties in the way.
	Now, is there something, like I once heard from one of the sisters, I went to Catholic schools in Massachusetts, saying the rosary might help make God's path become reality.
	Are there, I know you're reluctant to share what's in the letter, and I guess the diascast, when John XXIII decided not to publish it at that time.
	Yes, there's nothing about the rosary in the sequence.
	But is there any positive step a believing person can do to help, perhaps, reduce the suffering of others?
	Yes, there is.
	There is, and there's a whole literature on that, John, which you can read.
	And it's published by various organizations.
	One is called the Blue Army, another is called, gee whiz, there's several books and pamphlets and periodicals and magazines published that Let's explain how we can.
	There's lots of instruction on that.
	The Blue Army, is that something I would be able to find in a Christian bookstore, a Catholic bookstore?
	Yes, you should.
	It's headed by a man called Gruner, Nicholas Gruner, Father Nicholas Gruner.
	And I appreciate the opportunity to ask you these questions.
	Thank God, Bill.
	He's our creator.
	There's a movement, I didn't see much of it in Massachusetts, but here in Florida, there's a church, actually it's not a Catholic church, it's a shrine, and they do the old Roman rite, the Roman Mass.
	Well, John, for your information, I say the Roman Mass every morning, for an hour's time I've been saying it.
	I don't know if it's because they changed the Mass when I was in the third grade, but it feels more wholesome to me.
	Is it alright to take that path as opposed to the other?
	Between you and me and the Holy Spirit, it's the only path.
	Alright.
	I appreciate your call.
	Father, I said I would ask this, and so I'm going to ask it.
	I have people of many stripes and opinions and beliefs on this program.
	Sure.
	Dear Art, would you please ask Father Martin his opinion of Benjamin Crimm, And this Lord Maitreya, supposedly alive and well in London, does Father Martin consider Lord Maitreya to be the Antichrist?
	No.
	He's not.
	Do you have any comments beyond that?
	Sir Alcrem and the Maitreya are fulfilling a certain function pre-Antichrist.
	Yes, but they're not the Antichrist.
	Alright, we'll leave it right there.
	And one other question.
	Today, certain prophetic scholars are very much interested in why Gorbachev and the present Pope, John Paul, are in discussions, or more clearly, sharing the Russian language, which they can speak and few understand around them.
	Why are they in talks?
	They're in talks because John Paul's concept of Gorbachev's function is that, in reality, he is destined to exercise a certain role in the creation of the New World Order, and John Paul II is very keen on participating in the New World Order.
	I had a feeling that might be exactly what you were going to say.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Good morning.
	Good morning, gentlemen.
	This is Barbara in Tulsa.
	Tulsa, Oklahoma?
	Yes, sir.
	Yes, ma'am.
	I had a question for Father Malachi, a quick one about Fatima, and then I'd like to relate something that happened here in the house that was kind of frightening, and I wanted his opinion.
	Sure.
	On Fatima, Father Malachi, can you tell us if our country, the United States, is mentioned specifically in the secret?
	No, it's not mentioned specifically, but something very relevant is mentioned.
	I see.
	I wanted to call on your professional experience as an exorcist to get your opinion about what happened here.
	I'll try to be fast.
	I know the airtime is precious.
	It concerns my mother.
	She's 83 and in good health, but she is demented.
	I took her to the front room for her afternoon nap.
	This was a couple of months ago.
	But on the sofa, I left.
	I was halfway down the hall when I heard a horrible shriek.
	I ran back to the room, and she was in total body violent convulsions.
	I had never seen that before.
	Total body convulsions?
	Yes, Father.
	Yes.
	Uh, she, it was so violent that I was afraid to try to put her shoulders down on the sofa for fear I might break one of her bones or even one of mine.
	Yes, yes.
	Uh, this, it was just horrible.
	She was shrieking the entire time.
	I'd never heard her shriek.
	She's not a screamer, never has been, even before she became ill.
	This went on for three or four minutes, when suddenly she collapsed backwards and her head fell slightly to the left.
	What's your question about all that?
	Okay, what happened afterwards, Father?
	I'm looking down into her eyes.
	I didn't know what to do.
	I'd never seen anyone die.
	Suddenly, a small white ridge formed along the lower edge.
	The lower eyelid from the white tissue of the eyeball It was in a horizontal plane from the nose to the ear.
	This began to move slowly up through the white tissue, through the iris of the eye, and the eyes turned yellow.
	The pupil disappeared.
	There was just a fuzzy outline around the eye.
	I thought, is this what happens to everyone when they die?
	I didn't know what to do.
	Did she die?
	No, she didn't.
	I thought she was dead, Art.
	She was still as a stone, and all the color left her face.
	It turned this awful yellowish gray.
	Alright, well, okay, I can almost answer that.
	I would say that a medical diagnosis is required long before you would get to the consideration of an exorcism.
	There are many older people in this country now, worldwide, in fact.
	We're living longer, and dementia occurs.
	Dementia of various sorts begins to occur in people, and it's very easy to mistake that for something that would require an exorcism, and you'd have to go an awful long way before you would make that determination.
	He's right, ma'am.
	It's a very frightening thing, but as we say, it would be a good physical examination, first of all, with a competent doctor.
	Have you done that?
	No, she's now gone.
	She's now gone, yep.
	Yeah.
	But you're right, Art.
	I totally, you said what I would have said.
	That was my commentary on it.
	You can't do that kind of diagnosis on the phone, anyway.
	Oh, no you can't.
	East of the Rockies, you're on air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Hello.
	Hi, good morning, Father Martin.
	Morning.
	Where are you, sir?
	I'm calling from Hydeville, Maryland.
	Hydeville, Maryland.
	You're going to have to yell at us.
	I can barely hear you.
	Very faint.
	We're from Hydeville, Maryland.
	I have one question about angels.
	Now, I've been spared by seconds twice in my life.
	And I know you believe in angels, but I have no perception of anyone looking after me.
	But my life has been spared.
	Any comments?
	He's asking, Father, about guardian angels.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I heard him.
	What I got was that he has no perception that anybody is taking care of him.
	Right.
	Well, that's a common perception, all right, but he should cultivate his angel.
	How do you cultivate him?
	You pray to him, and ask his intercession.
	And you do something in his honor.
	You say a prayer in his honor, or you visit a church in his honor.
	Cultivate him, and he will talk.
	That's remarkable, remarkable advice.
	I had a guest on Sunday, Brad Steiger is his name, a well-known author, and he believes firmly in guardian angels, but the one caution that he gave out is, never pray to your guardian angel.
	I know.
	Well, there are those of us who pray continually to our angels.
	I don't know why Rod really forbids that.
	It's against all the practice in the Catholic Church.
	You don't pray to them as God.
	You pray to them as an angel, especially confined to take care of you.
	But I'd love to hear Rod's reason for that.
	I really would.
	Actually, Brad.
	Brad Steiger.
	People confuse him with Rod Steiger.
	Brad Steiger.
	I'd like to know why you would say that.
	Well, now that you've brought it up, I think that I'll get the two of you together and we'll find out.
	Good idea.
	I look forward to that.
	All right, Father Martin, stretch run.
	Stand by.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	We'll be right back.
	I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AI.
	Alright, back down to Father Malachi and Mark.
	Father, welcome back.
	As always, time just flies by.
	It always goes like a dream.
	It really does.
	And here in the middle of the night.
	All right, well I have people lined up by the gazillion to talk to you.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Good morning.
	Good morning, Art.
	Good morning, Father Malachi.
	Good morning.
	And God bless you for giving all your time on our show and I admire your stamina and your patience.
	Okay, my query is, About a year and a half ago, I read an interesting article in a publication that's dedicated to psychic phenomena, UFOs, hauntings, exorcisms, etc.
	In this magazine, there was a story about the death of the previous Pope.
	He was discussing certain problems of the Vatican with the Secretary of State, who is also a Cardinal, I believe, and that night, He had these papers, this edict that he was going to read before the heads of the church, you know, the popes and the bishops and the cardinals, and he had discovered, the pope, a scandal in the Vatican bank, money laundering, involving cardinals and two mafia bankers.
	Also, the pope wanted to lower the ban on contraception, and because of this, he was poisoned by the cardinals.
	Now, have you read this story or heard about it?
	Yes, I have.
	I have.
	The one I'm recollecting with all those details is a book by a man called David Yalop.
	Is that the one you're talking about?
	Yes, I believe that is.
	Actually, this was all predicted by Nostradamus.
	Yes, a lot of it was predicted, but Nostradamus can be read more than one way.
	But to get back to the actual Yalop theory, There are a lot of things in David Yallop that are unsubstantiated.
	Like, for instance, he said that he spent, I think, 200 hours talking to the secretary of that Pope who died after 34 days as Pope.
	But I know that secretary very well.
	He never saw Yallop's face or heard his voice.
	We didn't need anything to tell us that there were Vatican scandals about money.
	As of 1974-75, there's been a lot of trouble with money.
	In 1974-75, there has been a lot of trouble with money.
	The death of Pope John Paul I is very suspicious.
	It also said that when the housekeeper came in the morning and discovered the Pope was
	dead, he was still clutching those papers that he was trying to read before the hierarchy
	of the church, and there was a medicine bottle on the table which was poison.
	That's how he was killed, to poison.
	He was injected with imbalming fluid because they didn't want to have an autopsy that would
	reveal the poison in his bloodstream.
	I've heard all these stories myself, Father.
	Some of them are accurate, some of them are inaccurate.
	The certainty is that there are some mysterious circumstances in the death of that Pope.
	He didn't die naturally.
	Nobody believes he did.
	The details are left to the imagination of people like David Yallop.
	I have nothing to share on that at all, except to say that John Paul I was probably done in.
	Who did it?
	Well, if you would ask my opinion, but it takes a long time to explain as we haven't got that time, it's a lot of men within and outside the Vatican who could not put up with the reforms that he was going to inaugurate.
	And you, and I asked you this earlier, you don't really rule out that kind of violence in the coming days, do you?
	No, I do not.
	No, I do not.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Where are you calling from, please?
	Hello?
	Hello?
	Yes, that's you.
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	Um, I'm calling from Red Bluff, California.
	Okay.
	And I heard the Father, um, refer a previous caller to literature by the Blue Army.
	Yes.
	I was wondering if he is aware that the Blue Army was on a lecture circuit in the mid-70s revealing the third secret of Fatima.
	And if he is aware of that, if that is accurate?
	Yes.
	Father Gruner and his organization never revealed the actual text.
	The actual text.
	I attended a lecture in the mid-70s, and I remember... I don't remember it all, unfortunately.
	I think most of it was so frightening, I just actually couldn't comprehend it.
	The only two things I remember That he said it referred to a lot of civil unrest and that children would be disobedient to their parents and they would be tattooing their bodies and piercing their bodies and, let's see, children would be killing children.
	Yes.
	And those are the only two things that I seem to recall.
	No, it's not the It's not the actual content of the letter.
	We have children killing children, unfortunately.
	Yes.
	But no, that's not the sensational part of the third secret, as far as I remember, ma'am.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, good morning.
	You're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Where are you, please?
	Yes, I'm from Kansas City.
	Yes, sir.
	Yes.
	Great pleasure to hear you, you know, talk.
	Thank you very much for saying that.
	And my question, and maybe I'll have a comment afterwards, is that can you see the Pope at some time or another, at one point, giving up the secret of... The Pope?
	No.
	Okay.
	My comment is, Art, If what I've been hearing on the rest of your programs, with the Major and Scanlon and the rest of it, if that's leading up to the Third Secret, and the Third Secret, which you read, according to Father Martin, is sort of a mild version of what it says,
	I really don't think I want to hear what the Third Secret is.
	Very understandable, sir.
	Very understandable.
	It has not added to the sum of my happiness to have read it.
	Would you say that, in a lot of ways, Father, that the world is better off not knowing?
	I mean, that almost has to be what the Popes have decided, that the world is better off not knowing.
	Yes, that's what the Popes have decided.
	Against that stands the Order, which apparently the Queen of Heaven, as Catholics call her, gave to the Pope through the children.
	Publish it!
	Ah, yes.
	That's the difficulty.
	That's the only difficulty I have.
	And it's a big one.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Hi, where are you?
	I'm on the air in San Diego.
	San Diego, okay.
	And my question, Father Martin, is Our Lady of Medjugorje, in one of her sayings to the children, was that if we return to God, and Change our lives to reflect that return to God, and pray enough, perhaps God would not send the comet.
	And I'm wondering if the comet has anything to do with the third secret.
	No, ma'am.
	The comet is not mentioned, and the difficulties, or as they call them, the chastisements, the punishments, mentioned in the third secret, are not those caused by a comet impacting on the Earth.
	Do you know of anything else?
	The only time I've ever heard anything about a comment was in that one statement she said to the children several years ago.
	Yeah.
	I have a difficulty about Medjugorje.
	Since it has not been sanctioned by the Church, by Church authority, I can't rely upon it.
	I can't rely upon it.
	It hasn't been denied by the Church either.
	No, it hasn't.
	It hasn't.
	You're quite right.
	Joyful, deeply gratitudinal feelings.
	I know, and millions have also.
	Millions have also.
	The unfortunate thing is that the Church has not approved of it yet, and I'm afraid to trust myself, you know?
	Oh, I understand.
	My experience is very deeply involved, though.
	I absolutely believe it.
	All right.
	Thank you.
	Thank you very much, and take care.
	Uh, first time caller on the line, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Hello.
	Hello, Art.
	This is Wayne, somewhere in Kentucky, trucking across America.
	In a truck in Kentucky somewhere, okay?
	Yeah, question for Father, uh... Yes?
	Isn't it written in the good book that, uh, evil has to be requested to come into your home?
	Yes, it is.
	In regards to Benjamin Grimm of last week there, this malevolent spirit of his, it's waiting for everybody to request it to come into their home through one of these NBC, ABC or something like that.
	Wouldn't you consider that evil requesting to come into everybody's home by turning on the channel?
	Well, I didn't hear this particular broadcast, I'm not able to say.
	Well, this is with regard to Benjamin Crimm and Lord Maitreya.
	Yeah, what did Benjamin Crimm say?
	Well, he said that when the world is ready or requests to, that this Maitreya will make himself known through some large broadcast media to the world.
	Oh, I see.
	Well, if he said that, let's wait and see.
	That's all we can do.
	Wildcardline, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Hello.
	Good morning, Father Malachi.
	Good morning.
	And Art.
	Yes, sir.
	Ex Dominus Pubiscum.
	Ex Spiritus.
	Thank you.
	You don't know what that means to me.
	Hey, have you ever... One question I'd like to find out is, I have heard a story about a Pope from the mid-ninth century, a Pope John, who, like 856, 876, something like that, was discovered to be a woman.
	No, no, that's a mistake.
	That's a famous mistake.
	If Art gives me two minutes, I'll explain how the mistake arose.
	Go right ahead, Father.
	The Popes at that time used, as their throne, chairs made of a stone called porphyry.
	Porphyry is a very precious stone.
	The Romans had a series of porphyry chairs and thrones made, and they all had a hole in the middle.
	And he used to use one of these thrones, and they said that it was because he was very effeminate.
	His name was John.
	I forget which John.
	John I or John III or something like that.
	I just forget momentarily.
	But he wasn't a woman, no.
	There was never a Pope Joan.
	Much at all as a lot of people would like to happen.
	There was a Protestant historian in the 19th century called Harnack.
	And Harnack had a healthy dislike of the Roman Catholic Church.
	And he wrote the definitive book about Pope Joan, demolishing the myth.
	If anybody would have liked to create or foment the story, it would have been Harnack, but he came to the conclusion that it was a total fabrication.
	There were lewd stories told about him, the purpose of the whole being to masturbate, etc.
	I wasn't going to shock your audience with all that detail.
	Yes.
	All right.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Good morning.
	Well, let me turn my radio down.
	Yes, thank you.
	Father?
	Yes?
	Yeah, I was wondering, if I read Revelation 12, would I be fairly more enlightened as to the aspect of the third secret?
	Would that help?
	Well, Sister Lucia, who wrote down the third secret, says that the whole of The secret is contained in chapters, I think it's 12 to 17 of the Book of Revelation.
	Okay, that makes, that's starting to make absolute sense.
	Have you seen, have you seen, have you seen the painting of her last vision?
	Is it a woman?
	Clothed with the, uh, with the 12 stars, that?
	No, no, no.
	The crucifixion with Our Lady.
	No, I haven't.
	Okay, try and get a hold of that picture.
	It's her last vision in 1929.
	I will do.
	That's great news.
	Can I ask you another question?
	Because sometimes you say this Pope is more attuned with the New World Order, but in other places, and I may have been misreading this, you say that he's opposed to it at the same time.
	Am I misreading?
	No, he's opposed to certain things.
	Yes, certainly, but his attitude is, we can't stop the New World Order.
	Right.
	And it's here anyway.
	So he's trying to align the church with it.
	He's trying to make do with it.
	Right.
	Hey, Greg, thank you about that revelation.
	I'll be checking into that.
	I had a funny feeling about that.
	Thank you very much.
	I want to thank you.
	A good lead.
	East of the Rockies, you're on there with Father Malachi Martin and not a lot of time.
	Hello.
	Hello?
	Hi.
	Turn your radio off, please.
	Just a minute.
	Okay.
	Everybody's going to do that right away.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	Father Malachi Martin?
	Yes.
	It's nice to meet you.
	I listen every time you're on.
	I learn something new from you every time I hear you.
	I wanted to know this vision you talked about in Garibaldi.
	Garibaldi.
	Where can I find written literature about it?
	Is it sanctioned by the church?
	Write me a short note with your name and address, and I'll send you back the relevant details.
	Okay.
	It arises at 217 East 66th Street, New York, New York 10021.
	10021.
	And mention your name and your request, and I'll send you back the details.
	Promise you.
	Oh yeah, by the way, my name is Bonnie, and I'm calling from Philadelphia.
	Well, God bless you, Bonnie.
	Yeah.
	Another thing that bothers me, and it bothered me all along about this third secret, is the child still alive, the one who became a nun?
	Yes, she is.
	She's 89.
	She lives in Coimbra.
	My God.
	Wow.
	My God.
	Has she ever said how she feels about the church not publishing the third secret?
	No, she keeps very quiet for the simple reason that she's been muzzled by the Vatican.
	The thing that bothers me about this is, if the church is going against what God has told them He wants them to do, if their people are out here and they see this, how do they expect us to keep following them in absolute faith?
	Bonnie, what I want to say to you is, it's not the church, it's the churchmen.
	They are being unfaithful to their vocation.
	Yeah, but it seems like it's been so many.
	You're telling Gus, whoever Gus was.
	I know that that's hard difficulty.
	That's what in the last three or four hours Art and I were discussing and I summarized it all by saying we are in apostasy to a large degree.
	And the last thing I wanted to ask you, is there anything that we can do as individuals other than praying to avert what is coming in that third secret?
	We can't avert it now.
	It is coming.
	When is something else, but it is coming for sure.
	We can mitigate it.
	We can mitigate it slightly, if you know what I mean.
	But we can't avert it.
	Is the only thing we can do is pray?
	Pray, go to communion, say a rosary, cultivate the saints, stay in the state of grace, do good, visit the sick, visit those in prison, do corporal works of mercy, In other words, Bonnie, we know what to do exactly if we want to do it.
	Right, yeah.
	But it's not going to be an easy time.
	No.
	It doesn't seem like we're in very easy times now anyway.
	No.
	That's good.
	Bonnie, thank you.
	Thank you, Art.
	Bye-bye.
	Take care.
	Father, is there any circumstance under which you can imagine that you would feel free to reveal the secret?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	If there was a total collapse at the center.
	And you anticipate that, don't you?
	I anticipate there's a possibility, Art.
	I can't predict, but I anticipate there's a possibility, certainly, yes.
	I do.
	Father Martin, as always, it has been tremendous.
	Absolutely tremendous.
	Would you give your personal address out one more time, quickly?
	I would indeed.
	It is 217.
	East 66th Street, 66, New York, New York 10021.
	All right.
	Art, I want to thank you so much.
	Time runs away.
	It does.
	It absolutely gets away from us.
	It's a form of blessing, Art.
	It really is, because I want to say this.
	I hope this doesn't sound too sort of pious or pietistic or preachy to you, but we could not achieve that.
	In those three or four hours together, unless we had the grace of the good Lord with us.
	Father, that's it.
	We're out of time.
	Good night, my friend.

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