Malachi Martin, a disillusioned Jesuit and Vatican insider, reveals the Third Secret of Fatima (1960) as a prophecy of Satan infiltrating the church’s highest ranks—cardinals and bishops clashing—culminating in global catastrophe with millions dead. He blames Pope John XXIII for suppressing it due to 1963 negotiations with Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev, calling it a mistake that deepened the Vatican’s moral decline. Now cooperating with secular bodies like the UN and EU, the church risks irrelevance, with only 10 million traditionalists resisting. Martin warns of coming "much trouble," dismissing ecumenism as heretical and confirming Sister Lucia (89) is silenced by Rome, leaving believers to brace for inevitable chaos through prayer and grace alone. [Automatically generated summary]
From the high desert in the great American southwest, I bid you all good evening or good morning as the case may be across all these vast time zones.
Well, there are a lot of time zones from the Hawaiian and the Asian Islands southwest eastward to the Caribbean and the U.S. Virgin Islands, born in St. Thomas, south all the way into South America, north to the Pole, and worldwide on the internet.
This is Coast Gosam.
I'm Marcel, great here.
All right, now, Malachi Martin, eminent theologian, expert on the Roman Catholic Church, former Jesuit professor at the Vatican's Pontifical Biblical Institute, as the author of such widely acclaimed national bestsellers as the Final Conclave, Vatican, The Jesuits, The Keys of This Blood, the most recent of his books.
Actually, that's not quite true.
Long acknowledged as the premier authority on the subject of possession and exorcism, Malachi Martin is justly celebrated as a, quote, writer of fiery brilliance, end quote, that was the Detroit News, whose, quote, work catches the light like rare Waterford Crystal, Baltimore Evening Sun.
Malachi Martin is a familiar figure to millions of you who welcome and speak with him often during his frequent and outspoken radio and television appearances.
That's putting it mildly.
I'm holding in my hand his book, Hostage to the Devil.
It documents the possession and exorcism of five Americans.
I believe his latest book is actually Windswept House, or maybe not, but I know it is just now coming out in paperback.
Yes, of the condition of the prelacy, the governors, the cardinals and bishops that govern this vast one billion plus member church, the Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church.
It is a study of the condition of that organization as a world organization for spreading its gospel, its faith.
And let nobody sort of caveal at it in the difficult sense or the painful sense of the word, but listen to it because it seems to correspond with reality.
And after all, in the matter of faith and religion, it is a matter of attaining what is there, the real.
It is this, that the book really says, look, as far as organization goes, we as an institution and an organization, the vast Roman Catholic Church is on the down slope.
It is losing steadily and heavily, and over two-thirds of its members, that's two-thirds of one billion people, are being led into a form of belief which is irreconcilable with the traditional essence and outlook and belief of the Roman Catholic Church as it has been put almost two millennia.
For over 30 years, the majority of the governors, the directors, the managers of this organization have been feeding a form of belief which is not Catholic,
which has made compromises on basic doctrines and which therefore have led this faithful astray to their beliefs.
The new teaching, new persuasion, although it's never been the official teaching of the church, it's just that it is a wave of opinion that has been adopted by a majority, is that you have a right to be wrong in religious matters.
And that is against the nature of the church.
And then the chief one, the chiefest, if I could put it like that, difference is this.
Originally, up to 1965, the Pope was considered to be the head of the church in the sense that he had absolute power, which he shared with nobody in religious matters.
And he alone could dictate in religious matters under certain fixed conditions, he could determine what people should do and believe in religious matters.
That has been changed to saying that he and all the bishops, 4,500 of them, share the absolute power together.
They're all colleagues.
He is first among equals.
And this destroys this traditional absolute power of the papacy as the vicar of Christ and as the source of infallible teaching.
And then there are applications all over the place.
And the fruit of it all is the tearing to shreds of traditional belief, whether it's the blessed sacrament, that is the presence of Christ in the sacrament of the Eucharist, as they call it.
Catholics believe, strictly speaking, that here we have the body and the blood and the divinity of Jesus on earth with us by means of a sacrament.
The new belief is not like that.
It holds that somehow or other we have another type of presence which is not sacramental.
So you go on down the line and you find that a good deal of this one billion plus members have been led quietly, unprotestingly, unknowingly, into another form of belief which is not Catholic.
And now it has come to the point that, you know, students of religion and professors who demographers, religious demographers, those who study large religions like Buddhism, Hinduism,
Confucianism, Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, they will say, and it's true, that at any given moment, apart from crises, in any major religion, about 25 to 30% are fully practicing.
The others pool along, in moments of crises and war, etc., they come back to the fold.
Well, in the Catholic Church today, if you take Europe, ancient Catholic Europe, the average is 5% who even think of going to Mass once a year, or going to confession once a year, or praying regularly.
Well, there are those, Father, who would argue that it is because the Church has not become progressive that these numbers are down, that people are rejecting.
But you see, modernization and being progressive has come down to the adulteration and the dilution of these basic dogmas.
And that's why the attendance is bad, the practice of faith is bad.
And all the chief moral points on which Catholics were adamantly fixed, like marriage without divorce, contraception, against contraception, against abortion, against sterilization, against homosexuality, all those points are moot at the present moment in the majority of so-called Catholic lands.
This occurred politically because for three years, between 1962 and 1965, before the majority of people who are listening probably were born, a meeting took place in Rome called the Second Vatican Council.
And the people who emerged as the controllers of the discussions, it was attended by all the bishops of the church at that time, and that was roughly 2,800 bishops.
The people who controlled their discussions set out to do precisely that.
And they were cardinals and bishops and officials.
They had these ideas.
They had had them for a long time.
And by parliamentary stratagems and by very careful assembling of coalitions, of votes, they got these doctrines, these new outlooks voted in as official dogmas and teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.
And we had a Pope then for Paul VI, who in his weakness went along with them.
And that's what happened.
And you see, remember this, that Catholics were taught to obey what they were told.
It was a real internecine war between the prelates, Between the bishops and the theologians.
But the traditionalists, the conservatives, were far less skillful in parliamentary behavior as regards arranging votes and changing men's minds.
They were far cleverer than the traditionalists were, so that the conservatives and traditionalists lost out and found themselves completely outmanned and outmaneuvered.
And as I say, above all, they had a Pope at that time, Pope Paul VI, whom I knew, whom we all knew and liked, who was extremely volatile and was inclined to go along with anything that helped modernize the church, and who made a famous speech in 1965 at the end of this long, vast three-year meeting, saying that the purpose of the church was to join man in building the human habitat and creating man's paradise on earth.
And that art was the first time in its two millennia history that the Roman Catholic Church said, look, I am at your service completely to build up a material civilization.
That was the death knell of the old organization, which now is agonizing.
Yes, but there is in question here a very, very subtle but real reality, if I speak like that.
It is called faith.
Religious faith.
And Catholic doctrine is very, very exact in its teaching about religious faith.
It says that if you tamper with your faith, if you, by one compromise or another, you diminish its teaching and are unfaithful to its precepts, you lose it.
Now, faith is not a quantum.
It's not something sort of you put in a box.
It's a dimension of the soul affecting your mind and your will and your memory and therefore your sensuality and your entire being.
If you diminish it to such a point that you compromise its basics, it slowly is dissipated.
You can lose your faith.
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And once you lose it, you don't know you have lost it.
You do think the other fellow who has stuck to his faith is a fool, observing things that he needn't observe.
But what has happened to you, not you art, but what has happened to one, is that one's faith has been diminished to the point of no return.
And therefore you don't know you're wrong.
In other words, the old principle, if you lose your faith, you don't know you've lost it.
And once you've lost it, there is no guarantee you will ever get it back.
No guarantee you will ever realize that once upon a time you did believe in certain truths mordantly and fixedly.
And once it's gone, well now the faith of millions has been affected in basic things like the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ in the sacrament, like the absolute position of the Pope as the only infallible teacher under certain fixed conditions, the nature of marriage, the purpose of man, human liberty, it embraces the entire gamut.
He played a capital role because he was the equivalent of what you would say the foreign minister and the secretary of state and chief advisor to at least two popes.
And he had tremendous influence in molding the attitude of the Vatican as a power, because it is a power, to the communist empire of the Soviet Union, and then by derivation on the ordinary activity of ordinary Catholics.
And his view was extremely brilliantly inculcated and practiced, but with disastrous effects, because in effect he accepted the status quo in the Soviet countries where Catholicism was suppressed and where its representatives were imprisoned and killed and tortured.
And he was an extremely rigid man as regards devotions and as regards beliefs.
He had no use, for instance, for a central belief of Catholics today, which centers around a small town in Portugal called Fatima and the revelations of Fatima and the miracle, which was a genuine miracle by all accounts, in 1917 taking place in Portugal, which is a very influential event in the life of the church.
He was secular-minded compared to his predecessors in that post.
The career of Casarelli is mirrored in what we say in the Windswept House about a man called Maestro Yanni.
That was the name that this man had, to a large extent.
The effect was disastrous because he implemented the policy of live and let live with the communist regimes and establish relations with them.
It was the first time that you would find a cardinal of the Holy Roman Catholic Church clinking glasses in the Kremlin with those who at that same time were persecuting his fellow co-religionists throughout the Soviet Empire.
There was continual friction because the man in charge of the church at that time was a man called Pacelli, Eugenio Pacelli, better known as Pius XII.
And he abhorred the Nazis.
And he abhorred fascism as such.
And he did his best to condemn them in a very difficult situation.
Probably a lot of our listeners are acquainted with the controversy about Pius XII, the Pope, but that he ever had any love whatever for Hitler and company is an established fact.
He had none ever.
And there was no clinking of glasses.
Now, individual clergymen did, but they were always reproved by him and, if possible, ousted from their particular location wherever they were.
The structure as it is is creaking and groaning and not carrying the weight of it.
And there is springing up, both in North America and Latin America and in Europe, a network of Catholics, priests, bishops, nuns, laity,
who are reviving all the ancient teachings and living by them and refusing to cooperate with anything they consider to be out of line, anything they consider not to belong to the deposit of the faith, the traditional faith.
Now, to be awfully frank with you, Art, and to be frank with all my fellow Catholics throughout the world, at the present moment that network probably includes, what, about 10 million practicing out of 1 billion.
But it is most potent, and the best proof of its potency and its power and its promise is the fact that it is hounded and condemned and excoriated by the official drum of the Roman Catholic Church.
But in the meantime, the external presence and the influence of the Catholic community, if you can speak of such a thing nowadays, that presence in the public square,
in the public market of ideas and organizations, that is going to diminish and diminish and be negligible to such an extent that, you know, today, if you examine any country, even North Korea or Albania, two dreadfully distressed lands at the present moment, but in all the other countries anyway, you can safely say there are three components.
One is the government.
The government is always important nowadays.
It used to be.
But now it is terribly important.
And number two, you have the business community.
And the business community in many countries is far more important than the actual government of the elected officials if the officials are elected.
And number three, then you have a gaggle, a rabble of organizations.
Everything from the International Fireman's Union to Murrays Against Drunk Driving to the Catholic Church.
And they are competing in the public square with diminishing shares going to religion, especially Roman Catholicism.
Because Roman Catholicism is not does not belong to the mainstream thought today.
And if you examine, for instance, the emerging EU, the European Union, it now has laws that are intolerable for Catholics.
Every member of the Union must, according to the laws of the EU, the European Union, which is just coming into existence economically and politically, they must have laws promoting abortion, permitting abortion, permitting contraception, permitting divorce.
They must give equal rights to homosexual marriages.
And all these things are unbearable in a world in which Catholicism reigns.
But now, as different from 50 years ago, 60 years ago, or 100 years ago, the Catholic Church is just one more member of these NGOs, non-governmental organizations, competing in the public square with decreasing returns because the doctrine does not fit modernization.
Now, what is the future?
The future is a diminishing socio-political and socio-cultural effect of Catholics, the dispelling of anything like a potent Catholic community, and the existence of Catholicism in its traditional form underground in the sense that it's private and practiced quasi-in-secret and out of the public view because the public doesn't like it.
And there will always be, not always, but there will be for quite a long time a public façade in which there is a group of officials, bishops, priests, all the way up to the papacy who will maintain the exterior façade but the power will be gone.
Interestingly enough, the future of the papacy is different because of the power that the papacy exerts as a center.
That is an actual effect on politics and on culture.
There no longer is really a Catholic influence in this country or in North America or in Latin America.
There's no longer any real influence at all.
And it's a diminishing influence that they do exert.
And every year brings defeat after defeat after defeat.
For instance, take a very common example, a very prevalent example of art.
There's a play called Corpus Crispi by a playwright, very well known, Terence McNally, Irish origin of course.
The plot is roughly that you have a central figure called Joshua, which is Jesus, and he has 12 disciples, and he has homosexual relations with those disciples in the play.
Now, for the Roman Catholic doctrine, for Roman Catholic believers, this is blasphemy.
And yet there is no way Roman Catholics can stop this, can get it removed.
The more they talk about it, the more publicity they give it.
And that is the big difficulty, that there no longer is any respect, veneration for central doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church.
Well then, Father, if all of this is true and so much of the world is Catholic in name at least, then what effect would you imagine this to have on society in general?
That's a much broader question.
If we're going to be accepting now the unacceptable previously, how will this change society, or is that already underway?
But the point I'm making is that neither the Catholic Church nor the Protestant Church has any influence over the behavior either of the IRA, the Irish, or the Catholics, or the Protestants.
Because look in the absolute order, supposing imaginatively, in our imaginations now, Art, you and I and our listeners, we wipe out the existence of the Catholic Church.
There no longer is the Catholic Church existing in this hypothesis.
No Pope, no bishops, no cathedrals, no churches, no religious orders, no schools, no academies, no institutes, no influence.
They simply belong to museums.
If you do that, if such a happening did take place, a black hole would appear in human society.
Because the Catholic Church, culturally, socio-culturally, through its religious influence and its religious monuments and its religious tradition, does exercise a restraining hand.
If that's gone, then all demographers I know say it would be catastrophic, completely catastrophic.
Just as if, for instance, in Arab lands from Algeria to Indonesia, Islam suddenly disappeared.
There would be chaos.
Because religion does, whether it's Islam or Catholicism, in their particular lands, do introduce a socio-cultural balance.
And that is why the real enemies of the Roman Catholic Church, and the Roman Catholic Church has real enemies, never wanted to destroy the organization.
It's too valuable as a socio-cultural and socio-political stabilizer.
Nobody can say what is going to happen in 2020, 2030, 2050, and 3000.
We don't know even if we will attain that age for the church or for the human race.
If we will go through most of the next millennium, we don't know.
But we can safely say certain things that the diminishing return of the influence of anything like a Catholic community forebodes, or bodes simply, bodes a terrible absence in social and political life.
To a large extent, we have it already in certain dioceses, for instance, in the United States.
The diocese being the locality governed by a bishop.
There are married priests living with their families in contravention of the law of the church of celibacy.
There are homosexual priest organizations here and abroad and in Latin America.
There are women priests, that is women who have undergone ordination ceremonies and who faithfully say what they call mass every so often, investments with the chalice, etc., with the usual accoutrements of a Roman Mass.
There are bishops who openly flaunt the authority of the Pope and the basic dogmas of the Church.
We're well along our way.
There is two, which we must keep on saying, there is a large body of Catholics of that one billion plus membership, a large number of Catholics who groan beneath this, who know it's wrong, but who can't do anything about it.
Because again, the organization of the church is very tight.
And if you start at the Pope and go down to the smallest little parish priest stuck away in the smallest little parish, you will find that in no position of authority anywhere in that vast network of organizations of bishops and priests and organizations and committees and dioceses and parishes, in no place is there one traditionalist.
Well, you see, this is the very interesting point about his art.
I go, I visit Rome.
I see the people I want to see, including John Paul II.
Not as often as I used to, because of the fact that this Pope's health is precarious, and besides, he is surrounded by people who not only dislike me, but dislike him.
One man whom I know sees the Pope professionally in the health field, will tell me constantly, look, when I see the officials around him, there's more hate than affection than respect for this man.
And I've got some very, very provocative questions to ask Father Martin.
Then I'm going to turn him over to you, folks.
We're going to get the lines earlier than we normally do with Father Martin because we haven't done it in the past.
Don't touch that dot.
All right, to summarize the first hour with Father Martin, Father Martin is a conservative within the church, even a fundamentalist.
He suggests that the church has irreversibly begun to move away from all of its original teachings and tenets.
Irreversibly so, once again.
And that this will produce changes, of course, in society because the church, not only the Catholic Church, but churches and religions worldwide, have been pillars on which societal behavior is based.
And I think that pretty well sums it up.
Windswept House is a novel.
It is fiction, except it isn't fiction, is it, Father?
But it's far easier and allows some room for your imagination and therefore for explanation of what is happening, a dire happening, to the Roman Catholic Church, which up to, what, 40 years ago, was a monolith in society, Europe and the Americas especially, but worldwide too.
And to describe this, of course, you're going to walk on several people's feet and you're going to have to discuss existing people, which one must always do with reverence, a certain respect, because they are there.
and their office, they hold high office.
So the mode of...
The man who really made it work was Norman Mailer.
But even an American writer like Taylor Caldwell, he used what we now call faction.
It's not fiction, and it's not fact.
It's mirroring the factual situation by imaginative processes.
And this is an example of what they call as faction.
Because eventually, first of all, there is a thing called scandal.
Scandal in this sense that sometimes to tell the naked truth to people is so shocking that it is destructive of them.
If you can point the way to the truth and indicate if they wish to search themselves, they can find the truth.
It's far more effective than overwhelming them with such bad news that they lose heart.
People must have a good motive for existing.
At least they must think they have a good motive for existing.
No man can exist on nothing.
He must have some motivation.
And you can destroy the confidence in life by painting an utterly accurate but bleak picture.
So, no, one must be careful.
One must not scandalize in that sense.
But one must try and point to the truth and educate people slowly.
I have beautiful friends in the Catholic Church and in other churches and in other religions, but talking about my Catholics.
And I hesitate to disturb them in certain ways, knowing that with wisdom and the years and prayer and their own goodness, they will arrive at the full truth.
In the meanwhile, I must temper my critiques and my criticisms so as not to completely shock them.
Well, without naming names, which is always, I could name off, say, in the American bishops, there are about 250 of them, I could name off 20 to 30 to 40 who are quite capable of taking up a stance as regards church morality and church practice at complete variance with Rome and saying to Rome,
A clerical resistance to all advances by the traditional Roman authority.
I can quite imagine it.
And in France, and in Austria, and in Belgium, and in Holland, and in Italy, and in Spain, and in Ireland, and Poland, traditional Catholic places, I can see that fire taking place and people saying,
no, no, no, no, we're Catholics, but we don't share your opinions and going their way, which of course will be fragmentation and complete destruction of church unity, such as it is.
And I have beautiful schismatic friends in the Greek church and the Russian church and in the Protestant churches.
They all believe the basic truths that I believe, but they will not acknowledge any authority of the Pope or of the Episcopal line descending from the Twelve Apostles, which Roman Catholics claim.
And that's quite variable.
And I can see schismatics possibly being saved finally and attaining heaven, speaking strictly as a traditionalist Catholic.
Heresy is something else.
Heresy is where you and I agree on a majority of doctrines, but we differ about one particular doctrine.
And again, there are some beautiful heretical friends who are heresics, but whom I respect deeply.
No, what we're facing is something much more dire.
And apostasy, as defined by the man who really lived through the apostasy, a man called Athanasius in the 300s, the 400s of the first millennium, apostasy means that you step away from the basic dogmas of the Christian faith so that you can no longer be called a Christian or a Catholic.
We are faced with apostasy.
Not merely apostasy by scholars, academicians, professors, theologians, but apostasy in the people.
All right, perhaps this fact that I've got is an example, will serve as an example, and you can address it.
It's from Tom in Michigan, and he says, tonight, for the first time, I've got to dispute Father Martin.
He's saying we do not have the right to be wrong.
This goes against all I've been taught.
I was taught by my Catholic upbringing that God gave each of us free will.
To say We do not have the right to be wrong means that we do not have free will, that we all should just follow blindly, that we have absolutely no control over our lives because we are controlled.
If you don't have the right to be wrong, it is the pinnacle of contradictions.
We are all wrong if there is one and only one correct guideline, and we would all have certainly sealed our fate, or should I say, our fate has been sealed for us, because we cannot be wrong.
And number two, also, he must remember, it's a very intelligent question, but he must remember that the choice to be made must be made with God's grace, because otherwise we make choices which have nothing to do with God at all or with the truth of man's existence.
So it's what you consider to be liberty.
And liberty is best defined as the ability to do what you should do, to believe what you should believe.
And you are not free to believe anything that you think is okay.
You must align that with the revelation as it came through Jesus Christ and his church.
If not, you're on the wrong line.
It's a hard doctrine, but that's Catholicism and that is basic Christianity.
The kind of dispute or level of dispute that you're talking about within the church now is very severe indeed.
And the last time you and I met on the air, it was on the eve of two murders in the Vatican.
It was on the heels of news about the murder of a colleague of yours, an exorcist.
That's right.
And both of those stories have disappeared, just simply gone away.
And one cannot help but wonder if there is not about to be a war within the church itself, and if we're not going to see more of this kind of terrible, unimaginable violence.
We are going to see much more of that because the strains, the strain in the church is going to show it will not be merely indifference where people simply say it doesn't matter.
You can do what you like.
I just don't bother about this Catholic business, this Catholic truth, this Catholic Church, these Catholic priests and laws.
It's not merely that.
It's that there is now a mainstream choice in morality and outlook and standards of living that is irreconcilable with Catholicism and with basic Christianity to such a point that it is already a great liability to be a practicing Catholic, to be a practicing Christian.
It's a big liability in the public square.
It is difficult and it's going to get more and more difficult.
However, as one man said, at the present moment it's dry martyrdom.
It could become wet, though.
And then we have outbursts like what happened in the Vatican, which is a dreadful event and a bad omen.
And we have then the murder, the assassination of at least, not merely one art, by the way, but three people engaged in exorcism.
As you know, there's a general principle in the civil authorities in this country, and it's a good one, in general, that you do not emphasize, if you come across death, and there are always signs of Satanist worship, Satanist involution.
And I really want to thank the person that transcribed this for me.
The following is a transcription of what is possibly the third secret infetima as read by Art Bell over there on Coast to Coast AM on 51498 at 34 minutes and 48 seconds into the program.
And I began it with this preamble.
All right.
I in no way want the following as being authentic.
I have no way of knowing.
All I can tell you is it feels real.
It is alleged to be the third secret of Farima.
You decide for yourself.
Here we go.
A great plague will befall mankind.
Nowhere in the world will there be order.
Satan will rule the highest places, determining the way of things.
He will succeed in seducing the spirits of the great scientists who invent arms with which it will be possible to destroy a large part of humanity in a few minutes.
Satan will have his power.
The powerful who command the people and who will incite them to produce enormous quantities of arms.
God will punish man more thoroughly than with the flood.
There will come the time of all times and the end of all ends.
The great and powerful will perish together with the small and weak.
Even for the church, it will be the time of its greatest trial.
Cardinals will oppose cardinals.
Bishops will oppose bishops.
Satan will walk among them.
And in Rome, there will be changes.
The church will be darkened.
And the world will be shaking with terror.
One great war will erupt in the second half of the 20th century.
Fire and smoke will fall from the sky.
The waters of the oceans will change into steam, and the steam will rise and overflow everything.
The waters of the ocean will become mist.
Millions and millions of people will die from hour to hour.
Whoever remains alive will envy the dead.
Everywhere one turns, one's glance, there is going to be anguish and misery, ruins in every country.
The time draws nearer.
The abyss widens without hope.
The good to perish with the bad, the great with the small, the princes of the church with the faithful, the rulers with their people.
There will be death everywhere because of the errors committed by non-believers and crazy followers of Satan, which will then and only then take control over the world.
At the last, those who survive will at every chance newly proclaim God and his glory, and they will serve him as when the world was not so perverted.
And since this is a question of his supreme will as regards the world, the human race, its existence and its continuance and its future, I have no authority.
Because the cardinal who showed it to me had been present at a meeting held by Pope John XXIII in that year, 1960, to outline to a certain number of cardinals and prelates what he thought should be done with the secret.
But John XXIII, Pope John XXIII, then Pope in 1960, did not think that he should publish the secret.
It would ruin his, at that time, ongoing negotiations with Nikita Khrushchev, the boss of all the Russians.
And he also had a different outlook on life, which two years later, opening the Vatican Council, he echoed very succinctly and almost contemptuously in the middle of his speech on October 11,
1962, in St. Peter's to the assembled bishops who had come for the Vatican Council and the visitors, the place was crowded, a huge basilica, he derided contemptuously the people he called prophets of doom.
And there was no doubt in any of our minds he was talking about the pre-prophets of Fatima.
Well, again, in a sense, it would be such a shock that I understand that you have grave reservations about it, but if it would, in effect, right the church.
They would say, yes, this, the net result will be plus rather than minus.
I have no authority.
I have no revelation.
No angel has tapped me on the shoulder.
I've had no private divine dream like St. Joseph or the Joseph in the Old Testament had.
I have no authority.
And I cannot arrogate to myself that authority because I may be putting my foot in my mouth, in a mild fashion.
I may be going ahead of the Lord.
And we're supposed to walk, in the words of one Roman saint, five yards behind the Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit.
And besides that, there's the question of shock, of scandal, of frightening people and polarizing my human society, to which I belong and to which I'm happy to belong, because God made me to belong to it as a member of the human race.
And I cannot do that.
Not just like that.
I just can't.
I wish I could, because in human calculation, yes, this will shock.
This will jerk people out.
This will fill the confessionals on a Saturday evening.
This will fill up the cathedrals and the basilicas and the churches with worshipers kneeling down, striking their breath.
Maybe, maybe, because at the back of it all is this regnant, reigning, as it were, Catholic truth that nothing like that can happen unless God gives the grace, and I have no authority to presume that he will give me the grace, give the grace on the occasion of my doing anything like that.
I consider it to be the key event in the declining fortune of the Roman Catholic organization and the defining event for the near future of the church in the next millennium, the third millennium.
It's the defining event.
And that is why strong men, strong men, I mean, see, when we speak about strong men, the amazing thing about the statecraft people, people who practice the craft of state,
like Cassaroli, who's just died, or Pope John Paul II, is what people always remark say about great figures in history like Napoleon, like Hitler, like Stalin.
They had a will of indestructible power, and they could oppose the united wills of millions and make their point of view stick to a certain degree anyway until they fell, until they became a cropper as we say in England.
Similarly, in Rome, there are men with strong wills.
They are in statecraft all their lives.
They are engaged in macro-government, not merely of religion, but in state.
There are two responses to that, very brief responses.
One is the response already chosen by the leaders, by the managers, by the prelates, by the papacy at the end of this millennium.
And then there is what one sometimes thinks will be God's response.
The response at the present moment is this.
Beginning with John XXIII, Pope John XXIII, and then with Paul VI, and now with John Paul II, the response is, let us cooperate.
Let us join, as Paul VI said in his famous speech in December 1965, let us cooperate with man to build his habitat.
And John Paul II is an ardent supporter of the tendency to one world government for geopolitical reasons.
He wants to bring in the brand of Christianity, of course, and Catholicism.
But he certainly is in favor of it.
And there's no...
Now this was no longer what, say, Pius IX, Pius X, Pius X would have said at the beginning of this century, that I am the vicar of Jesus Christ.
If you do not listen to my voice, then you are going to be damned forever.
And we will not participate in any government behavior, in any government plans, which do not recognize the kingship of Christ.
That is completely absent.
There now is the policy of cooperation with the formation of the European Union, with the cooperation with the United Nations, and the Vatican and the Church has entered the list in the struggle amongst the Assembly and the General Assembly of the United Nations and in the non-governmental organizations, what we call the Eco-Socno-Go organizations.
All right, I'll say for my own edification that if anybody else has what they consider to be a valid copy of the third secret of the Fatima, why, by all means, send it to me.
And I am curious about just one thing, Father.
If I actually got a copy of the precise text and I were to read it and ask you if that was, in fact, correct.
I converted to Christianity a couple of years ago.
But what I came out of was a very difficult religion being the exact antithesis of Christianity.
And when I was in that religion, I heard many, many things.
One of the things that I heard that I feel strongly relates to this is with regard to that third secret, which has to do with this European system that is coming to pass now.
And something that I heard was that there was going to be an unholy trinity that would basically mock the Holy Trinity coming out of that European system.
And basically a super dictator coming out of Germany who would be the beast, and the man of sin coming from France.
And basically the Antichrist coming from the seat of the Vatican.
But then there's the justification arises from this art that I think, if you've done the reflection necessary, there are such huge questions being decided beyond our will.
You understand me?
Beyond our capacity to touch them.
For instance, I am a citizen, I vote.
You're a citizen, you vote.
But we know, you and I, that by the time our vote, which we faithfully record each time there's an election, local, state, or federal, or presidential, that by the time it reaches those who make the laws which govern us, it is much diluted because of our political system.
And we know that decisions are made not at the will of the American people, for instance, the will of the Canadian people, but at the will of people who govern the flow of capital and capital goods throughout the world each day on which our world now depends.
And that is such a hazardous situation, as we've all learnt watching the Asian tigers crumble into puppies and the biggest Asian tiger, Japan, faltering when five years ago it was threatening our economy.
Remember that time?
And now it's not.
And we have this precarious balance of The European Union.
Britain is in and it's not in.
Germany is the great power, but it isn't.
By the way, France is the most economically sound member of Europe.
Something happened to me in Paris that I would like to ask you about, Father.
What is that?
I have had, over the years, many, many guests on what is called an out-of-body experience, where people think that their soul or their being actually leaves their body.
I have heard many descriptions of how this occurs, that frequently there is a feeling of being paralyzed and a large humming sound, and then people will find themselves outside their body.
I was lying in a hotel room in Paris, and something happened to me, Father.
There was no humming.
There was no feeling of being paralyzed, but never in my life have I experienced this, and I have a hard time finding words to describe, but I'll do the best I can.
Suddenly, I, without question, accelerated at an indescribable speed up, straight up, into a place that didn't have form and didn't have things that I saw, but it had indescribable joy.
It had a It had the most satisfying, incredible feeling I've ever felt.
It was very short.
I was very shocked, very surprised by it.
It was brief, and I came to the shop.
And when I wake up, I recognize that I have been dreaming.
There was no physical sounds like humming or anything.
No, that's the marks of, you see, after the general principle, who might have explained that to an old master like you, there's a general principle that the discernment of spirits, as they call it, if an experience such as this brings peace, brings joy, brings exhilaration, doesn't breed in you arrogance and pride, but gratitude.
It says, Art, why would God give this prophecy, referring of course to the third secret, to a select few and instruct them not to give it to his people?
It sounds to me that it is man who has decided to keep it a secret from the people and not God.
The secret was meant for the people, not for the Pope, not for the bishops, not for the Holy Office.
It was meant to be published in 1960 by explicit order, by the mandate of heaven.
John XXIII, God bless him and rest him, because he's with God now, in whatever form that is, he decided not to.
He had his own reasons.
We think, with all due respect and veneration, etc., etc., etc., that he made a very bad mistake.
And indeed, what probably your correspondent from Wisconsin doesn't realize, or perhaps he does, let me remind him, that in 1963 there was a second appearance, this time in Spain, in Garabandal.
And the opening words of that revelation were, because you, my sons, have not listened to my orders, my mandate, here's what's going to happen.
And the message was very dire.
Repetition of the third secret in brief form.
So it wasn't the will of God.
The will of God has been frustrated.
But see, let me remind you, and that particular man, that the will of God is frustrated continuously.
And that doesn't mean it wasn't his will, and his will will not work out finally.
I guess I related to you that ever since I was young, I had a sort of a, I wouldn't say premonition.
I don't think it was that sophisticated.
It was more subtle.
That everything seems to be without purpose.
Now, I guess what I'm trying to ask now is I'm 37 years old.
I don't have the same love of life that my friends have.
I seem to have in the back of my mind the sense that, well, it's all pretty much for nothing.
Now, it isn't depression per se, but it is a sort of an intuitive thing that, well, maybe everybody's putting a little more into this thing than they'll ever be able to take out.
If I were to sort of abandon any strict control and give you what I think, and that's what you're asking, I think since you're 37, by the time you're 45, you will have seen the worst.
A great punishment will come over the entire human race.
Not yet today, nor tomorrow, but in the second half of the 20th century.
What I have already made known at La Salette by the children Melanie and Maximin, I believe it is.
I repeat to you, humanity has not changed as God requested it to.
It has sinned and trampled underfoot the gift it had received.
There is no order anywhere.
Satan rules, even in the highest positions, and determines the direction of things.
He will succeed in warming his way even unto the highest summits of the church.
He will succeed in seducing the minds of great scholars who will invent armaments with which half of humanity can be destroyed in seconds.
He will have the mighty among the peoples under his sway and will induce them to turn out mass production of arms.
If humanity does not amend itself, I will be forced to let go the arm of my son.
If the mighty of the earth and of the church do not oppose this, I myself will do it and I will ask God, my Father, to allow to come over men the punishment of his justice.
It will then be that God will punish men more harshly than he did with the flood.
And the mighty and the powerful shall perish along with the humble and weak.
Yeah, there are a lot of people I know that are out there that do appreciate you, even though there might be maybe a lot that don't, but I'm one of the ones that really do.
Well, it's, you see, for one reason or another, certain people have a greater perception of what their angel tells them.
We don't know why.
We don't know why.
We do not know why.
But that is in that nature.
It's always comforting, but it's always admonishing in a gentle sense of the word.
unidentified
Yeah, because it seems like I've lost a lot of the zest for things in the world, and it's like I'm being pointed out of the world into another direction.
And I've had weird things happen to me back from 1990 on.
I know that, by the way, it's a very rare animal nowadays.
But find a good spiritual director.
They do exist.
At a certain point, Bob, just to finish it off, at a certain point, you'll just go around in circles unless you have a spiritual guide.
unidentified
Okay, can I just ask you one quick question?
Go ahead.
All right.
Is it within the church's laws, is it possible to have maybe one of your relatives who died and who's maybe now a saint in heaven come to you and tell you something in the manner of a dream, but very, very feasible.
Because the principle is this, that your flesh and blood, above all, your own bone, flesh and blood, have a spiritual bond with you that nobody else has.
And in the grace of God, and if they're with God, they can communicate.
And they stem from your book, Hosage of the Devil.
I have Windswept House, first edition, hardback, looking at it, but I'm halfway through your other book first, so I can't get to the other one until yet.
There is a passage in your introduction that says, the church is the only element in society with the authority and the availing remedy to counteract such manifest evil.
I'm talking about possession.
What is about the church itself?
I was always raised with the thought that the church is the collective sum of the congregation, that the practices within it also.
It is the assembled people who are in the state of grace, sanctifying grace in this life, and those who are in purgatory, and those who are in heaven already.
They, as the mystical body of Christ, because it's Christ who coagulates them all into a Mystical being, and that is the church.
Now, we have also got an external organization, which Art and I have been discussing tonight in its sorry condition.
But that's only the external organization.
The church itself is this mystical body of believers on earth, in purgatory, and in heaven.
And they have, through their prelates, through their authentic prelates, they have the power of control of evil if they want to use it.
unidentified
Now, how is it manifested through those priests, bishops, cardinals, monseigneurs to give you, I should say you, as an exorcist, the power to combat such evil?
But if they do, but I mean, I'm just sitting here and listening to you panel on them for two hours, which I believe the church does need an enema, so to speak.
Even when it comes down to when I go to Catholic Church in the morning masses of watching the fathers delegate the responsibility of giving out the Eucharist to other people, to sick people, when they're pawning that off, it makes me wonder, you know, just how serious are they taking certain responsibilities.
And one question I had in that where you had thought that by the year 2000, let me quote it here, that there will no longer be a religious institution recognizable as the Roman Catholic Church of today.
And the question I had was, what's the rush, what's the real hurry to unite with the Orthodox churches that the Pope has assumed so urgent to connect with them before the year 2000?
First of all, that idea of ecumenism is something I disagree totally with.
We, properly speaking, don't want to join with anybody.
We think everybody should join us, number one.
Number two, the rush to ecumenism is tied to the concept that my Pope John Paul II, and he is my Pope, has, because his ideal, and remember as well, because you can interpret his words and his actions in this slide, his ideal is to form a dynamic, a new dynamic, as he calls it.
Catholics joined with Protestants and joined with Jews and joined by Muslims and Hindus and all believers creating an irresistible force within the nations of the earth.
That's his idea.
That's what he labors for.
That's what he talks about the year 2000 for.
That's why he wants to go to Mount Sinai and why he wants to go to Ur of the Chaldees, where Abraham came from, and he wants to end up his celebrations in Jerusalem.
That's this Pope's concept.
For me, there's no rush at all.
It's a question of God's grace.
unidentified
Right.
Yeah, I was just interested in that because I know that there's a long connection with the Orthodox churches where, you know, the history of the church, where you could see a significant difference of the Roman Catholic church today.
When you go back in history, even with the dealing with the Eastern churches, it's very...
Well, that's not the Pope claimed.
I think it was in 1962 where the Pope lifted the anathema against the Orthodox and proclaimed them, well actually I think it's this Pope who claimed them as the other lung of the two-lung theory.
When you get down to theological fact, Plecto, the Patriarch of Moscow and the Patriarch of Constantinople, are both heretics and schismatics.
And unless they return to union with Rome, they will not go to heaven.
unidentified
Well, how can we say that, really, about the patriarchs when actually you look at the history, where it's the patriarch of the West, the Pope who is in heresy?
The Pope was, going right back to Clement, Pope Clement, who knew Peter, and going up to Gregory in the 6th century and onwards, there was always this claim and acknowledged by the Orthodox Greeks and the Russians until 500 years later.
Father, in view of the state of the Church and the Vatican and the cardinals and bishops that we now know, when the Lord takes this Pope, what do you expect will occur with regard to succession, the next?
The prime candidates at the present moment, we all know them, because for the last year and a half, certainly, the most frequent word in people's minds and in thoughts in Rome is conclave, the election of the next Pope.
And prime candidates, we now know, there are three or four of them, they do not look very, very promising as regards what is needed to pull this organization together.
To get something going which is really evangelical, which is really forceful in the field of morality and religious teaching, and which has the power of God behind it.
It says, I was told by an old Catholic priest while I was stationed in Asia in the late 70s that in the last days, nature will attack everything we have and know and that all food will be gone.
Starving will be so widespread that families will eat other members of their families, my God, just to stay alive.
This madness will be so widespread, there will be no place that will be safe and no place to hide until all the peoples who do not believe in God are dead.
When you say you have no authority to reveal the secret, wasn't the secret revealed to the nun and then on to a pope, and then wasn't it supposed to be revealed to the public at first?
I see his arguments as very forcible arguments, and many people would agree with him.
unidentified
And with all due respect, Father, if you don't reveal the secret, and if the secret is held, wouldn't the members of the Catholic Church be perpetuating the suppression of the secret?
Authority is a very, very fixed thing, because I have no other guide on this face of this earth except the voice of the Roman teaching, the magisterium Romanum, as we call it.
Today, certain prophetic scholars are very much interested in why Gorbachev and the present Pope, John Paul, are in discussions, or more clearly, sharing the Russian language, which they can speak and few understand around them.
They're in talks because John Paul's concept of Gorbachev's function is that in reality he is destined to exercise a certain role in the creation of the New World Order.
And John Paul, too, is very keen on participating in the New World Order.
I had a question for Father Malachi, a quick one about Fatima, and then I'd like to relate something that happened here in the House that was kind of frightening, and I wanted his opinion.
Sure.
On Fatima, Father Malachi, can you tell us if our country, the United States, is mentioned specifically in the secret?
And God bless you for giving all your time on our show, and I admire your stamina and your patience.
That's awesome.
Okay, my query is, about a year and a half ago, I read an interesting article in a publication that's dedicated to psychic phenomena, UFOs, hauntings, exorcisms, etc.
And in this magazine, there was a story about the death of the previous Pope, that he was discussing certain problems of the Vatican with the Secretary of State, who is also a cardinal, I believe.
And that night, he had these papers, this edict that he was going to read before the heads of the church, you know, the popes and the bishops and the cardinals.
And he had discovered, the Pope, a scandal in the Vatican Bank money laundering, involving cardinals and two mafia bankers.
Also, the Pope wanted to lower the ban on contraception.
And because of this, he was poisoned by the cardinals.
But Nostradamus can be read more than one way, you know.
But to get back to the actual Yallop theory, there are a lot of things in David Yallop that are unsubstantiated.
Like he says that he spent, I think, 200 hours talking to the secretary of that pope who died after 34 days as Pope.
But I know that secretary very well.
He never saw Yallop's face or heard his voice.
But the area.
As regards the, we didn't need anything to tell us that there were Vatican scandals about money.
As of 1974, 75, there's been a lot of trouble with money.
Now, the death of that Pope, Pope John Paul I, is very suspicious.
unidentified
It also said that when the housekeeper came in the morning and discovered the Pope was dead, he was still clutching those papers that he was trying to read before the hierarchy of the church, and there was a bottle, a medicine bottle, on the table which was poisoned.
And that's how he was killed through poison.
And they said he was injected with embalming fluid because they didn't want to have an autopsy that would reveal the poison in his bloodstream.
Well, if you would ask my opinion, but it takes a long time to explain, so we haven't got that time, it's a lot of men within and outside the Vatican who could not put up with the reforms that he was going to inaugurate.
Father Gruner and his organization never revealed the actual text.
The actual text.
unidentified
I attended a lecture in the mid-70s and I remember, I don't remember at all, unfortunately.
I couldn't look because it was so frightening I just actually couldn't comprehend it.
The only two things I remember that he said it referred to a lot of civil unrest and that children would be disobedient to their parents and they would be tattooing their bodies and piercing their bodies and let's see, children would be killing children.
And those are the only two things that I seem to recall.
And my question, and maybe I have a comment afterwards, is that can you see the Pope at some time or another, at one point, giving up the secret of the third?
My comment is, Art, is that if what I've been hearing on the rest of your programs with the major and Scanlon and the rest of it, if that's leading up to the third secret,
and the third secret, what you read, according to Father Martin, is sort of a mild version of what it says.
I really don't think I want to hear what the third secret is.
And my question, Father Martin, is Our Lady of Major Goria, in one of her sayings to the children, was that if we return to God and change our lives to reflect that return to God and pray enough, perhaps God would not send the comet.
And I'm wondering if the comet has anything to do with the third secret.
The comet is not mentioned, and the difficulties, or as they call them, the chastisements, the punishments mentioned in the third secret are not those caused by a comet impacting on the earth.
unidentified
Do you know of anything else?
The only time I've ever heard anything about a comet was in that one statement she said to the children several years ago.
And regards to Mr. McGrim of last week there, this malevolent spirit of his, is waiting for everybody to request it to come into their home through one of these NBC, ABC, or stuff like that.
Wouldn't you consider that evil requesting to come into everybody's home by turning on the channel?
Well, he said that when the world is ready, or requests it, that this Maitreya will make himself known through some large broadcast media to the world.
Well, Sister Lucia, who wrote down the third secret, says that the whole of the secret is contained in chapters, I think it's 12 to 17 of the book of Revelation.
unidentified
Okay, that makes that starting to make absolute sense.
Because sometimes you say this Pope is more attuned with the New World Order, but in other places, and I may have been misreading this, you say that he's opposed to it at the same time.
And mention your name and your request, and I'll send you back to Jesus.
unidentified
Promise you.
Oh, yeah.
By the way, my name is Bonnie, and I'm calling from Philadelphia.
Oh, God bless you, Bonnie.
Yeah, another thing that bothers me, and it's bothered me all along about this third secret, is the child still alive, the one who became a nun?
Yes, she is.
She's 89.
She lives in Coinbra.
My God.
Wow.
My God.
Has she ever said how she feels about the church not publishing the closest?
She keeps very quiet for the simple reason that she's been muzzled by the Vatican.
Well, the thing that bothers me about this is if the church is going against what God has told them he wants them to do, if people are out here and they see this, how do they expect us to keep following them and absolutely?
That's what in the last three or four hours, Arthur and I were discussing, and I summarized it all by saying we are in apostasy to a large degree.
unidentified
And the last thing I wanted to ask you, is there anything that we can do as individuals other than praying to avert what is coming in that third secret?
Pray, go to communion, say a rosary, cultivate the saints, stay in the state of grace, do good, visit the sick, visit those in prison, do corporal works of mercy.
In other words, Bonnie, we know what to do exactly if we want to do it.