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May 4, 1998 - Art Bell
02:25:00
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Vatican Murders - Father Malachi Martin
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Father Martin, welcome back to the program.
Good morning, Arthur.
How are you?
I am very well.
Better than the news.
I want to tackle right away, Father, a couple of breaking kind of news stories.
One, I started getting messages that an exorcist, one that you may know, was very brutally murdered in America.
What do you know about that, Father?
Yes, the one man we're both thinking of His name was Alfred Kunz, and he was a parish priest in Dane, which is a parish in Ohio, in Milwaukee, in, pardon me, in Wisconsin.
Wisconsin, alright.
In Wisconsin.
And he was found at 7 o'clock in the morning.
Uh, with his throat cut from ear to ear.
His throat cut?
Yeah, from ear to ear, in his own blood, face down into it, and with obviously various acts of desecration of his body, uh, which are normally associated with Satanist-inflicted death.
Uh, Father Kuntz, of course, um, and by the way, he was a very popular parish priest with his people, Uh, he had done exorcisms, but very, very private.
Most of us don't talk about them because they usually involve confessional material.
And, uh, Father Quince was a very good priest and never spoke about confessional material.
Had he been in communication with you?
Yes, we had been in communication.
Uh, do you know offhand if he was doing anything At the time, I'm sure the police are probably asking about this, but I mean, it's an obvious question.
They are, and they are refusing to give any of the more lurid details of the motive of his death for the simple reason that they don't want to... They suspect it's somebody within his vicinity, not a stranger.
There are only, I think, a couple of hundred people.
Well, no, about 700 or 800 people involved.
They're certain it's not a random act of violence, somebody who wanted to steal, or was caught in the act of stealing and simply flailed out.
They're convinced it wasn't a random act like that, but was a deliberately set-up thing, and that at least one person was involved in it, perhaps more.
Kunz himself had just been doing radio shows with a priest friend, whom we all know very much, Father Fiore, and they returned home late at night.
Late being about 10 o'clock in the evening, and we know that he was alive at 10.30, because he made a telephone call, or received a telephone call, I forget which, but then the following morning at 7 o'clock a young man who came, to assist him at mass, etc.
found him lying, as I said, in his own blood with this very, very sinister mode of death etched on his body.
There's no doubt about it that it is related.
Whether it's related to his very confidential activity as a priest in regards to covens of warlocks Uh, in neighboring areas, we may never know.
We may never know.
We may never know because, number one, the police have a habit in this country that whenever there's, and it's a good habit on the whole, whenever there is any real Satanist activity of a shocking kind, they don't publish the details that indicate the Satanist connection.
They just, uh, They publish the bare details of a murder.
Why do you think that, Father?
Well, it's also, you're asking me why I think it's a good idea in general, because it doesn't evoke the copycat syndrome.
These things do, because about 300 years, 200 years ago, they stopped doing exorcisms in public, precisely because It evoked the copycat syndrome in people.
Uh, imitators.
Well, you have told me many times, since you have done so many exorcisms, that there is real, very serious, very real
danger.
Is it not possible?
It's gotta be possible.
That in his work, um, in some way, in the middle of some exorcism, or as part of one, an ongoing one, or, you know, who knows?
I have no doubt about it.
The answer to your question, I foresee, and interpret, is no doubt about it.
The death was not random.
It was not an act of personal vengeance.
Somebody got annoyed at him for some particular thing.
It was in connection with his work as a priest, and in the area of demonic possession.
Father, have you ever been concerned at that level?
Have you ever, without being specific, because I know you can't about specific exorcisms, but have you ever been concerned for yourself in the same way?
Very, very same way, but you learn after a certain time to take that added risk, and you take precautions, but yes, sure, and at times the menace or the threat is more patent or obvious than at other times.
Sure.
And sometimes it's quite valuable.
It's quite expressive.
You're warned.
And more than one good priest in that part of the world, especially one or two very prominent ones, got telephone calls from Well, you've been a very prominent exorcist.
Have you received threats?
Yes, and one of them actually had to hire a bodyguard, or was given a bodyguard by the police because of his prominence.
Well, you've been a very prominent exorcist. Have you received threats?
Oh yes, in the past, yes. Not recently, but in the past, yes, very much.
Not as part of this, or a connected...
No, not part of this, because I wasn't in any way related to this.
And as one person told me, sort of happily, because we don't belong to an umbrella organization, exorcists, in other words, those engaged in this area, because we don't belong to an umbrella organization, they can't identify every one of us, and therefore pick us off.
But they do, we are picked off, alright, there's no doubt about that.
Um, and they're not the first.
Father Kunz is not the first priest who was picked off as a priest.
And there's somebody who blocked or interfered with or spoiled, uh, Luciferian plans.
There's no doubt about that.
Well, the fact that he is now dead would tell me that Luciferian plans are somehow still underway in whatever case.
Oh, yes.
Oh, I'm sure they are.
I'm sure they are.
Is evil in America, evil in the world, increasing?
Well, the only way I can answer that question without sort of sensationalism is as follows, that since 1972 or 3, when the group I'm associated with started as a very quiet, discreet group, but since then, incidences and types of demonic assault have increased. First of all, the increase
has been about 750 percent.
Since that time, 750 percent, about 750 judging by figures.
And this is in the northeast corner of America, the tri-state area essentially, although it
takes in outlying areas too.
But then the types of possession we have nowadays, two phenomena that are very interesting.
We have the phenomenon of the twenty-something or thirty-something that comes and says, look, father, I want such and such a job, or I want to get this particular woman.
I want to make this marriage.
Yes.
I want this money.
And I made a pact with Satan, with the devil.
And I got it.
Now he won't let go of me.
This didn't occur before.
In my experience, the limited experience I had.
And secondly, then there's the... This is how recent, this phenomenon, how recent?
Ah, the last ten years.
The last ten years.
The last ten years.
And then there is also the secondary, the second one, the second form, which is a bit off-putting, to put it mildly, that we now find the age is younger.
We find children, Those we would technically call children, six years old,
who are obviously not merely obsessed but on their way to full possession.
There was a recent case in Arkansas that I'm sure you heard of in which a couple of young
fellows decided they were going to kill their classmates and teachers and pulled a fire
alarm.
Yes.
And brought rifles and lots of ammunition and simply started shooting students and teachers.
That's right.
Just started shooting.
That's right.
I wish I knew the details of that case, but again, the police are singing mum as they say.
They're saying nothing about the details.
And there's a great protectiveness Webb wove around those young, you know... Of course, yes.
Juveniles, yes.
Juveniles.
But we don't know the details of it at all.
An awful lot of that going on, if that corroborates what you were saying.
There is.
There is.
And there's much more than is reported in public by the media.
And in several states, there's an agreement There's sort of an unwritten agreement between the police and the governor.
There's an unwritten agreement that no details will ever be published without formal permission by the media or by the police of any obviously Satanist or Luciferian happening.
Well, I understand that on the one hand with regard to the possibility of copycat crimes.
However, However, if this really is on the increase in America now, shouldn't we know about it?
Yes, I think we should.
The incidences, it's more frequent as far as the incidence of it.
If you drew a graph, you'd find an increase of over 700% since the early 1970s.
Now, who keeps track of that?
Are you the one?
We do.
We do in this northeast corner of the United States.
That's why I'm only talking about that, too.
I could make oblique references, but they'd be anecdotally, as it got evidence, to other parts of the country.
But you're sure of what you're saying with regard to the Northeast?
Yes, I'm unfortunately rather sure of that.
And also the What has come to light is that it's now been, it's sort of, it's, it is not so surprising for a lot of people that there are covens amongst the very educated class.
Architects, doctors, lawyers, priests, um, brokers, um, and the leisure class.
These are people who have made pacts with the devil.
That's right.
They, it's really to, The best, the more accurate way of describing it would be that they have indulged themselves in the worship of the ghost, of the prince, of the serpent, of Satan, of Lucifer.
And they live perfectly, they live perfectly normal lives.
They're jewel merchants, they travel, they're prominent in their own way, but they do have this indulgence.
Father, here's the part of that I can never understand.
That has never made sense to me.
And that is, if somebody were to make a pact with the devil, then obviously the implication is, if the devil is there to make a pact with them, to make a deal, to make their life, their short mortal life on earth, Pleasurable, with money, or women, or travelers, or whatever it is they want.
Then they are aware of the presence of the devil, and they are obviously aware of the presence of God as well, and nevertheless, make a conscious, stupid, short-term, blind choice
to take what they can get in this lifetime.
And I just...
To embrace one, you must embrace the other.
It's not like it's some wishy-washy prison.
I know, I know, I know you do.
It is very...
not easy to understand, except when you talk with them,
when they let their hair down and peel grapes, as we say, and when they're on their way to being cured of what they...
or healed, is the proper word, you find that there's an exhilaration
and a satisfaction, which is both sensual and sexual and mental,
When they really indulge in Luciferian worship, there is a peculiar exhilaration.
Like a drug, then?
Yes.
Yes, it's a peculiar exhilaration.
And of course, the godly instincts in us all, the angelic in us all, because we all have something angelic and something godly, besides everything else, a lot of other negative things, that is quenched.
And, um...
Uh, you find in them a horror, a horror of anything what we call sacred and holy or sacrosanct.
Or the idea of the, the idea of the, of the, of the sacred, of the awesome.
I only, I only heard this once, Father.
I interviewed, we talked about this, I interviewed a Satanist.
Her name was Patsy.
And this caused a great deal of controversy after the last program that I did with you.
I got many, many messages about it.
Patsy was a devil worshipper.
No question about it.
No question about it.
Toward the end of the program, she revealed to me that her husband had murdered her little child.
A several-year-old child.
And she said... I said to her, Um, you're sure not going to be with your daughter, are you?
In other words, your daughter's going to be in heaven, and you're going to be, acknowledge you're going to be in hell.
So, no, I took steps to ensure that my, uh, my daughter would be, uh, in hell with me.
And I asked you about that.
Was that possible, I asked?
And you said, yes.
And then, by the way, you're not the only one who said yes.
A couple of other experts said the same thing.
And people just went berserk.
They said, no, it can't be.
I'm sorry.
It is.
You see, sometimes we moderns think with a very peculiar and artificial frame of reference as regards the human soul and the human mind.
We're not talking... If we really are realistic, we're talking about the basic inclination of the human soul, the human spirit, and not about some informed concept.
So, we are making these statements based on what our own frame of reference is.
That's right.
Not what spiritual reality is.
Exactly, exactly.
And it's a frightening thing.
When you come across what we all know is called bad seed.
It's a frightening thing.
It's like those two little boys in England that were... That boy in England who killed off two of his little children.
It's a frightening thing when you meet it because it's utter art.
Let me try and convey it to you and your listeners.
You come across this extraordinary Father, I'll tell you what, we're at the bottom of the hour.
Okay, why don't we wait?
So why don't we wait, and this is something I would like conveyed.
Sure.
Stay right there.
Father Malachi Martin, from New York City, is my guest.
And we are about also to discuss what has happened in the Vatican hours ago.
In all of man's living memory, there has not been murder in the Vatican.
Until tonight, this is Coast to Coast AM.
♪♪ ...was the fact that there's nothing more appalling,
for the mind that I have anyway, than to come across a person technically considered a child
With the hard glare of consummate hatred and complete lack of the normal reactions of compassion and feeling and understanding.
Right.
And we do find that today.
I was going to say increasingly, but there's a certain increase amongst The age group of six, five, no, five to eight.
That's a very disturbing thing.
And it's impossible to say that it's developed by TV, by violence on TV, and that's for a business.
We don't know.
There's no official inquiry into it, because many of the people who should be, like, for instance, there's one section of the FBI, I think, It's a bio-ethical laboratory or something.
I forget the exact title of it.
It's one of their institutes.
One of their institutes in Washington.
It's supposed to inquire into it, but they poo-poo the idea of active Satanism.
Well, alright.
Here's what it seems like to me, the layman.
It seems like we have some soulless people being born.
I mean, even little children, certainly when I was little, I remember, I understood life,
the value of life, and right and wrong.
And now we have children that are killing, and when asked why they did it, they get really
interesting answers like to see what it would feel like.
That's right.
That sort of thing.
That's right.
This is from what I would consider to be a soulless being.
Either that or otherwise, you covered the ground, television, the rest of it, so then why?
What's happening?
Well, those of us who are engaged in the field of terminology always find, finally, the footprint of the goat.
The footprint of Lucifer.
And that is a very distinctive thing.
A very distinctive thing.
And what is disturbing is that many times Young persons of this ilk are very brilliant.
Mentally.
They're not stupid.
They're not dull.
They're not yokels.
They're not, you know, they're not stupid.
On the contrary, they're quite intelligent.
I'll strip their peers.
Well, in an academic sense, yes.
In an academic sense.
And that's a bit frightening because they're intelligent and they dodge the issue.
And, um, the whole thing is very disturbing.
And, of course, it goes back to the breakdown of the family, as such, in our population.
I mean, take for instance the figure, which is solid, that 33% of all births are illegitimate.
33% of all births are illegitimate.
That's right.
Well, fully one-third.
Yep.
And sociologists are weary and tired out depicting The general tendency amongst the illegitimate to all sorts of perversions and deficiencies, societal and personal.
So I suppose that's part of that picture, but there's still this footprint, this touch of Satanism, yes, it's a smell, it's a print.
You know that some being with a hope The Irish have a tradition that if you have a vision, an apparition of somebody who claims to be the Virgin Mary or Christ or Saint, always look at the feet.
This is the Irish idea that they can imitate everything except he can't hide his cloak and feet.
But it's only a... It's an Irish pishoke, as they say in Gaelic.
It's an Irish saying, but there's a lot in it.
And I know apparitions or appearances of the Virgin that took place in various parts of Europe.
And people who took photographs of the visions and apparitions could never get a picture of their feet.
It's an Irish thing.
I have a question for my wife, which is kind of an odd question.
I don't know why she's asking this, but I'll ask it, and it is the following.
With respect to exorcisms, has it ever occurred, Father, that anybody listening to the tape of an exorcism, or in fact watching a videotape of an exorcism, has, as a result of that, been possessed?
Well, Chris, the answer is this.
It has happened in our records.
Really?
People who looked at or saw tapes, because we make videotapes, which are very private, or audios, audiotapes of exorcisms, that they, rare cases, rare enough anyway, that they went for a pact.
They invited demonic invasion.
Yes, I know.
There's a lot of very weak people out there, spiritually.
And it's very exciting, I remember well, being brought into a discussion about 10 years ago, now in New York, in a very fashionable hotel.
Well, I, to some degree, I understand that.
in a Satanist exorcism.
First of all in Satanist rule of rights.
And doing everything that Satanists did.
I had to keep on warning them, you can't do that with impunity.
But they wanted the thrill of it.
Well, to some degree I understand that.
In other words, to view an exorcism, to see the presence of Satan,
confirms the presence of God.
And I know you need no such confirmation, but for many, it would be a confirmation of that kind.
That's why I have a hard time understanding why those who have confirmed that Satan is as real as can be, Can choose that, can choose that path is just unimaginable to me.
Because one basic reason is that once you delve in, once you tamper, once you delve into it, once you tamper with it, it gives, it does infection.
It gives power to that evil spirit.
And you can't easily get out of it.
There's infection.
Alright, you were advisor to two popes.
That's right.
Tonight there is news that just hours ago, for the first time in living human memory, actually about 150 years they estimate.
That's a very good way of putting it, in living memory.
There has been, well it says a member of the pope's elite swiss guard apparently shot And killed his new commander and the official's wife Monday night, then turned the gun on himself, all within Vatican walls.
A next door neighbor found the bodies.
The Vatican spokesman said this was all done in what he called, quote, a moment of madness, end quote.
Well, I'll tell you, Art, a word to the wise.
With anything like this, that involves the inner life of an institution which has now centuries-old precautions against publicity and being known, what really goes on there, One has to be very, very circumspect and careful about any details released about something that they can't hide very well.
It's very hard to hide the death of two officials.
Yes.
And the wife of one.
You can't hide that very well.
Well, it's not being hidden.
Believe me, it's a lead news item.
I've got the letters.
They can't do anything about it.
But, as to the details, the devil is in the details, as they say.
And we don't, the details have not been published.
We do not know, really, what happened, except that three people are dead.
And one apparently, according to the official account, by his own hand.
A moment of insanity, momento d'insania, yes, that's one with Of covering the issue, it was a general blanket.
In a very careful statement, a moment of madness.
Yes, it's a very, it's a nice way of conceiving.
Yes, there was a dreadful thing.
What it does indicate is this.
Murder, the killing of another human being, the shedding of blood, is one of the sure signs of demonic interference.
But in the Vatican?
Well... I mean, is that a likely target in place, or is that an unlikely target in place?
No, no.
Remember, just two popes ago, one pope said, Paul VI was his name.
He died in 1978.
And I knew him very well.
He said, the smoke of Satan has entered the sanctuary.
And...
I think you remember a book of mine published in 1996 describing a Luciferian ceremony within the precincts of the Vatican.
And remember that the Vatican, the Pope has, in his entourage, he has a chief exorcist, we all know him, Father Gabriel Amort, and there are eight employees, exorcists, I've worked both in Rome and Milan and Turin.
So there's a lot there.
What we've just seen, the crack has opened and we've seen one effect of it.
Put it like this, Art.
For somebody in my position, from what I know of how this institutional organization works, it is impossible that there'll be a triple death by violence.
Within the precincts of the Vatican, amongst Vatican people, unless... it is impossible that should happen without demonic interference.
Because the thing is so... should be in principle so sacrosanct, and so preserved from such activity, that it might take place outside, but not inside.
I was there.
I was in the Vatican.
And to contemplate...
That occurring is almost beyond... I know.
I know.
I know that.
I know.
I realize fully how it has impacted you, as we say.
But, so, my word to everybody is, we won't know the details for a long time, if ever, in our lifetime.
Just as other assassinations that took place in the Vatican, we haven't got the details yet.
What have the Vatican Is its own sovereign state, is it not?
Absolutely.
So that the investigation, the details of it, the suspects, the people who would be caught, and then... I have no idea what would happen in the Vatican if they came up with suspects.
How are things handled in the Vatican?
Oh, they have their own way of dealing with that.
They have their own way of dealing with that.
So the Italian law in no way bears on the Vatican?
No, none.
Now, normally, let's take a banal example.
If somebody is found inside of the Vatican Museum trying to make off with a valuable chalice or something, they of course put him in the Vatican prison, which they have, and they call in the police.
And it's a normal thing like that.
And then they are turned over to Italian authorities?
Yes, they are.
Normal evil.
Normal violence.
Normal evil, yeah.
Normal.
Anything which really comes from deep within and betrays the presence of the, betrays that footprint again, and this does, that's dealt with in camera and dealt with away from the prying eyes of the media and of the world.
It's impossible for them to hide everything.
And very early on, we all knew, very early on in this incident, we all knew that something had happened, but the race in the various news media, CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS, to try and get some substance to what they were hearing was fantastic to watch.
Of course, nothing came out because the Vatican has means of choking off everything.
Well, the pressure on the Vatican from the media over this is going to be big.
It is going to be big.
And do you think they will just hold their silence?
They will, but there's always the inevitable.
The inevitable tipster.
The inevitable sale of news.
And that's what will probably happen.
I would imagine that Catholics all over the world, which look to the Vatican, Uh, spiritually.
Yeah.
We'll want to know if, uh, their spiritual capital is under siege.
That's right.
And, uh, then, you know, there's another consideration which is painful for me anyway, because I'm a papist, as you know.
It's by the fact that I have my, my criticisms of the Pope.
I served with him, a Pope I didn't serve with.
And I have, Strong critiques of the present Holy Father, who is my Pope.
But I have strong critiques of him.
But, on another plane, this dreadful slap in the face to John Paul II.
Because this happened under his watch.
No matter how you cut it, he's the boss.
He's in charge.
So, really, it works in the Vatican like it works in Washington.
Oh, yes, it does.
Good economic times, the President gets the credit.
Bad economic times, the President gets blamed.
Exactly.
Oh, yes, it does.
You see, it does reflect on his administration.
It does reflect on the spirit he has installed for almost 20 years as Pope.
And a lot of us have been saying all along, for a long time, There is a spirit of secularization going on in John Paul II's Vatican, which makes possible such incidents as this, and other incidents too, which have not come to light.
So it must be a cause of great anguish to John Paul II.
I'm certain not a show, but you're saying even the What I would think of as relatively small moves, because it looked very non-secular when I was there, but these small moves would invite in the possibility, you're saying, of what has happened?
Yes, they do.
They do.
The old Italian saying, which I can't quote any longer than the Italian because I forget it, is that any crack in the wall and the wisp of Satan enters, the wisp of evil enters.
There is a process, a gentle process.
The intention is ecumenical.
The intention is to be like the rest of the world.
The intention is not to be so remote.
But there has been a tendency in the pontificate of John Paul II to be so accommodating.
Let me give you one example.
A new Pope, believe you me Art, No pope of the 263 popes before him would have sat down with the leader of the voodoo priests of Haiti.
Which he did.
He did.
And he said to them, look, Father Maurice, I think Maurice was the name of the head voodoo expert priest in Haiti, look, we are interested in your religion and you should be interested in our religion.
That is something which is unheard of in Catholic tradition.
Or, John Paltrow himself has gone to a secret island off the Malagasy Republic where he drank from the sacred water, from the sacred fountain of the God, of the local God worshipped.
That is, or he sat in a phallus shaped chair in India and had the mark of Kali put in his forehead.
Oh, my God.
Father, hold on.
That is something which, you know, violates... Oh, I... Listen, are you suggesting that the present Pope may himself be under... No, I'm suggesting that he has drawn on himself demonic attention which he could have avoided.
All right, Father Malachi Martin, hold it right there.
That's plenty, thank you, to digest for the moment.
From the high desert, this is Coast to Coast AM.
His wife shot.
Another man who shot them committed suicide.
All of this inside the walls of the Vatican.
The killing, the first inside the walls of the Vatican in our Living memory I guess there may have been a hundred and fifty years ago something may have happened And we were talking about that before the break Just an incredible incredible occurrence and Father Martin began to say that Pope John Paul I Think this bears repeating and and some and trying to understand father Pope John Paul has been in some way affected himself and
It must be a cause of great anguish for him.
Well, you said that, but you said that he went to a voodoo... Now, I'm not really caught up on this, Father.
Well, he went to Haiti.
Haiti?
He had a papal trip to Haiti, and during that trip, he met, officially, with the head of the... I think it's 15,000 voodoo priests that live in Haiti, and sat down with him.
We have the photograph.
In fact, I have it here in my files.
And one of the things he said was, with typical John Paul II ecumenism, look, we are interested in your doctrine and we think you should be interested in our Catholic doctrine.
Um, how?
I know, I know.
It leaves you speechless.
That's right.
Or, for instance, in years that passed, when he went to India, John Paul II permitted a young lady in a sari Uh, to put the sign of Kali on his forehead with that red stain.
And he sat in a chair, chosen by the Indian bishops, which had the phallic shape.
As you know, the phallus is worshipped in, in Hinduism.
Why, uh, why?
This... These were actions of John Paul II destined to create A great fellowship and feeling.
For instance, let me give you an example which struck us all at the time and is not mentioned because people are afraid of being called anti-Semites.
John Paul II went, for the first time, a Pope as a Pope, he went to the synagogue in Rome.
The head of the synagogue was a very respectable rabbi called Eliot Toaf.
Very well known to all of us.
And, um, They sat on a stage, or a bema as they call it in Hebrew, on two chairs, sort of catty corner facing themselves and facing the audience, and in his speech, which is a very good speech, but a very good address, John Paul II said his only reference was, oh by the way, you know our founder was of your race.
That's all the testimony to Jesus that John Paul II gave!
And when the Vatican held a special Holocaust evening, which was standing room only,
it was such a grand affair with music and with a huge menorah lit by the grandchildren of people
who had survived Auschwitz and Dachau and Birkenau, the Hitler camps.
In his speech for that particular evening, which was a Holocaust evening,
John Paul II consented to have the only crucifix in the hall removed
in order not to offend his Jewish friends.
We considered that.
For me to remark that, it's not anti-Semitism on my part.
I've done more, I think, for Jewish-Christian relations than most people alive.
That's the story you and I have never delved into, which we will ask another broadcast, please God.
But, in fact, we find this... No Pope before John XXIII, before John Paul II, would have allowed it.
If a Cardinal did that, Under any of the other Popes, the Cardinal will be sent away to live life out in a monastery on the top of the Sierra Madre.
Why has John Paul done it?
It is his form of ecumenism.
And, look, let me make quite clear for you and for everybody listening, this man is my Pope.
He does represent Christ.
He is the Vicar of Christ for me.
And if you were to speak, Under the conditions of infallibility, I will accept what he says.
But I am allowed, nay, I am obliged, by my tradition and my faith, and by previous Popes, to critique anybody, Priest, Bishop, Cardinal, or Pope, when I think they are in error.
So, so, so, so, a Pope, then, the Pope, now I'm not a Catholic, my wife is, but, The Pope is supposed to be, is he not, infallible?
Only under certain conditions.
Help me understand what conditions those would be, in other words... He must state explicitly as follows, put it in my language, paraphrase it accurately, what I'm about to tell you is something I say as the successor of Peter, And I say it with the authority of Christ as his vicar on earth, to be held by all the faithful as a matter of profound, divine, Roman Catholic faith.
He must say that.
Now John Paul II has never said that about anything, even about the ordination of men and women.
So then he can do that on the one hand, though he hasn't done it, and on the other can sit down with A voodoo priest.
That's right, that's right.
And in his famous encyclical, which has become so popular with progressive Catholics, it's called Ut Unum Sint, that there may be one, he discussed and outlined the way he would like to take apart the whole doctrine of the Pope's primacy in order to suit non-Catholics.
So John Paul II has ventured out along the edges of orthodoxy in his statements And in his preaching.
But whenever he taught, he has never yet taught error infallibly.
He's never adopted the infallible mode.
The infallible mode is something where the Pope says, I am now doing this as the head of all Catholics.
I'm doing it as the successor of Peter and to be held by all the faithful on the pain of mortal sin.
He has never done that yet.
Do you think he's, of course, very frail now?
Very old?
He's very frail, and it makes you cry to see his face.
His left eye is calcitrant.
He can't keep it open or shut.
His hand, his left hand, is jigging continuously.
He doesn't look at you straight in the eye because he's bent over.
And by the way, I know a man who frequents him about every six weeks from New York.
And he says that surrounding John Paul II, in his court, in his entourage, the hate is palpable.
The hate?
The hate is palpable?
The hate is palpable.
Now, Father, when you heard about murder hours ago in the Vatican, were you surprised?
No.
You were not surprised?
No.
No, I'm not surprised.
I'm appalled, of course, and shocked, because two people's lives were snuffed out, By violence.
But I know that we will... In my lifetime, I may not know the real facts behind it all.
Um, and moment of insangia is a beautiful expression in Italian, but tells me nothing about the reality.
But surprised?
No, I'm not surprised.
Well, when you said that the Pope's entourage, that the feeling of hate was palpable, of hate of the Pope, you mean?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Hate of the Pope?
Yes, of this particular Pope.
And this man, by the way, is not a Christian.
I beg your pardon?
He's not a Christian.
He's a technocrat who goes to the Vatican for a certain reason periodically.
And he says you can't mistake the hate and dislike of this man in his immediate entourage.
And so John Paltrow is a pathetic figure really.
He lives with this night and day.
There is no mercy for him.
There is no compassion for him in his normal entourage.
And he's spurned by the Patriarch of Constantinople, and he's laughed at by the Patriarch of Moscow, and he's let down by his Cardinals and his Bishops.
He's an outcast, this Pope, and it makes me cry to know what he's going through.
And yet, he has done things which we must criticize And we'll criticize in all trust and belief that he is our Pope.
But has made mistakes.
Now the point in general about these killings, the murder and the suicide in the Vatican is that my point was that it's in his watch this has taken place.
And he knows it.
He's a responsible man.
And he knows that this has taken place during his watch and that therefore somehow or other he is responsible.
He's responsible.
Would you expect a statement from the Pope?
No.
No?
Oh, he might make a reference.
Every Wednesday, as you know, when he's tall and in good shape, he gives a little sermonette from the window, from one of the windows on the fourth floor of his apartment in the Apostolic Palace, out to the crowd.
There's always a crowd on Wednesday to listen to him.
He may make some general reference Which people will pick up on as a reference to this calamity.
Because, believe you me, Art, ecclesiastically, papally, this is a disaster.
There's no doubt about it, and this is a sign of the times.
I mean... Are we to know, will we know, Father Martin, when the Antichrist is with us?
Yes, we will.
We have been given three signs by the scripture.
And confirmed by all doctrine and teaching for almost 1,900 years.
It's very simple art.
First of all, the first sign, the major sign is this.
In his day, I mean when he's active, because he's here already, but he's not active.
But when he is active, there will be problems, human problems, confronting us as a race, as a society of nations.
Problems we can't solve.
Our best, the best and the brightest of our technocrats and scientists and theorists and leaders will not be able to solve them.
He will.
That's the first thing.
He will produce the solution for them.
And people will be so overwhelmed with gratitude and with relief that somebody has the solution which works.
They will say to him, and the second sign is this, you must be divine.
And the third sign is, he will say, kneel down and adore me.
I am indeed your God.
Then we have Antichrist.
You said, he is here now.
He is not yet active.
I have heard this.
He's alive.
The Antichrist is now alive.
And he cannot die until Christ kills him.
He has this pseudo-immortality.
Don't ask me where, how, who, what.
How do we know that much?
How do we know that?
From the second letter of Paul to the Thessalonians.
If you read it carefully, those three signs are there.
The fathers of the church, the early writers between 100 A.D.
and 600 A.D.
They're the early writers.
the two Gregory's of Nis and Perseus, and at the end St Basil, all those who wrote the
origin, the fathers of the church, the basic writers, they all agreed on the character and
the signs of the Antichrist's appearance. There are those, my listeners, many of whom
believe that the signs are all around us now.
The children, the blank-eyed killers, the soulless killers.
I know.
That's a lot.
The killing of exorcists, the ritual murdering of exorcists, murder in the Vatican.
Just to name a few of the more recent within hours.
But there are people who will say, these are signs that he is with us now.
Yes, there are signs that he is with us now, but the reign of Antichrist We'll be very, very signal.
Very clear.
And the only source we have is that second letter of Paul to the Thessalonians and those three signs.
And he has not yet started his operation.
Well, Father, I am not going to suggest that our president is the Antichrist.
And there are many in my audience... No, he's not.
He's just a very naughty man.
Many who would.
However...
Is it not reasonable to look at what the president is alleged to do on a fairly regular basis and then look at the national poll of approval for this president and make certain conclusions about the changed thinking and the acceptance level of what once would have been thought of surely as evil Behavior by the American people.
I mean, the acceptance of it.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
But, Art, you, more than me, more than most of us, would, should be, would be, do, I'm sure, appreciate the fact that there is now a growing gap between what the spin doctors create as the public mentality And what people are really thinking.
And only if we had... Do you remember the... What was it?
Art... The cube.
Q-U-B-E.
Do you remember that cube business?
The instant reaction to the television?
I do.
I do, yes.
Remember that?
Yes.
Well, there's a very good reason why they would never install that.
It was instantaneous.
And it was done by computer.
And, um...
If they put that in, and every one of the 200 and what, 40 million Americans, or roughly the adults amongst them anyway, were able to vote, I bet you the polls would be totally different about President Clinton and everything else.
Well, they might be.
Father, hold on, we're at the bottom of the hour.
My guest is the exorcist, Father Malachi Martin from New York City.
this is Coast to Coast AM.
Maybe it was intended that you be here this night, Father.
Well, Arch, these things... I heard the hesitancy in your voice when you spoke about coincidence, because in these things, I do not think there is any coincidence.
Yeah, I'm beginning to believe that myself.
There's a certain providence over things, and you and I, Originally, we were supposed to talk about two weeks ago, but we had to put that off for one reason or another, and we happened to latch on to tonight when these two things have come to a head, and other things have come to a head in the meantime, too.
Before we leave the subject of the Pope and what has occurred tonight, Dan in Chicago Um, asks the following.
Yes.
Please, if you can, tell us who are the advisors, that's in quotes, that recommended the Pope was safe to mingle with the darkness that is voodoo.
I know it sounds like I'm being suspicious, but I just don't think these actions would be entered into without counsel.
This could easily be the result of being too trusting with those nearest to him.
That's right.
That's right.
He, you see, the Pope has A theological commission of its own.
Thirty men, usually.
Some of them are not Catholic.
Some of them don't even believe in God.
Some of them certainly, you know, leave much to be desired as regards the practice of Catholicism as such.
And then, there's that factor, number one.
Number two, in the immediate entourage of the Pope, If you look at the people he frequents with daily, there is no shining light that you say, gosh, that's a holy man.
That's an observant man.
That's somebody you can look to for principles, Catholic principles.
There is nobody like that.
Anybody like that, who had power, has had his wings shorn.
Well shorn, often.
And I remember talking to one of them recently, face to face, And he said, look, as a cardinal, what can I do?
I've been stripped of all power.
I said, Your Eminence, you can die.
You can give testimony with your blood.
At which he was mute.
Certainly he was.
What do you see for the future of the papacy?
This man is frail.
I don't know how long he will be with us.
If there are Hands manipulating what's occurring behind the scenes.
What do you think comes next?
Well, I can have lurid thoughts or I can have sort of pacifist thoughts.
I know that he himself intends to, if that has any valency at all, he intends to live Past the Y2K moment.
As a matter of fact, Father, he plans to go to Jerusalem, doesn't he?
I know.
He plans that and goes to Sinai.
He wants even to retrace the steps of Abraham, who came from a town called Ur of the Chaldees, now in Iraq.
Impossible.
He may be restrained in that.
Because did you see that the reason why the papal visit to Israel and the Middle East was put off?
Uh, because of the, um, the problem, of course, with Jerusalem, is what they're suggesting.
No.
No, no, the Vatican was very explicit about it.
Oh?
Yes, Toran, who's the sort of Prime Minister, if you want to prove it, of the Vatican Secretary of State, said quite blatantly, the danger of war breaking out there is too much.
Well, it's another way of saying the same thing.
Yes, there's probably going to be a war over Jerusalem.
That's it.
And over the whole question of the Palestinian State, because next battle... No question.
Who doesn't want a Palestinian state, and I quite understand why he doesn't.
But I also understand why the Palestinians want a state.
There are more of them than there are Israelis, by the way.
Does the Pope intend, in that visit, if it is going to occur around the millennium, to try to bring together the three religions?
Art, his dream, and it's the only dream John Paul II has had, he never dreamt of controlling his bishops.
He never dreamt of improving the condition of the religious orders.
He never even dreamt of spreading Catholicism as a belief.
His dream has always been to create a dynamic at the center of which would be Roman Catholics.
Grouped around them would be the other Christian religions or sects or churches.
Greeks and Russians and Western Protestantism.
And grouped around them would be the Jewish people.
And grouped around them would be the Muslims.
His dream was to make out of that a dynamic the world would have to respect.
That is, it's his dream.
Is it your dream?
No.
No.
What do you think... What's going to happen?
...will come to pass if he lives long enough and tries this?
What will happen will be that the institutional organization of the church, as distinct from the people who live the life of the church, the supernatural life of the church, that organization will cease to be the house of Christ.
You know... That's a very dire prophecy.
Yes, it is.
You know, it sure is sounding like...
There are a lot of people who are worried about the year 2000, about the millennium.
Sure.
And not merely about the Y2K, I think.
And that's exactly right.
And there may be, I'm beginning to discern, good cause to be worried about it.
There is very good cause to be concerned about it.
Art, I'll tell you.
It is now what?
The 4th or the 5th, isn't it?
It's now the 5th, most times, I'll assume.
It's now the 5 If I'm alive, I'll be dead in 79, and well, and we are talking, it will be a totally changed international scene, and a very changed USA.
And I'm willing to make a modest bet of $5 with you on that.
But a very serious matter.
And it will be the end of the papacy as we know it, and of the institutional organization as we know it.
There will be an underground church, which exists already.
Most endings are the beginning of something else.
So true.
That's one of the truest historical statements you've ever made.
And, you see, the comparison... Please do not take this as outlandish.
The comparison is Christ himself.
The man.
Jesus Christ.
Who was a very big man, according to the Shroud of Turin, and I firmly believe in that.
And he was a big man.
And he was crucified.
And he was bled like a pig.
And he died.
And that body ceased to be animate.
It ceased to exist and had to be put in the earth because, like everybody, it was going to smell.
And three days later, according to his followers, according to me, according to believers, he was alive and well in a glorified body.
And it was really him.
Yes.
It was he.
Redi vivus, as they say in Latin.
Alive again, and with the marks of his wounds, but totally healed, and he was glorified.
He couldn't suffer anymore.
And I think that that's what the church is going to, the Roman Catholic Church, is going to go through.
Crucifixion.
Resurrection.
Death, and resurrection, and glorification.
But in the meantime, we have to go through the agony in the garden, and the Via Dolorosa, It isn't pleasant to think about.
I was at the very place in Bethlehem where Christ was born.
They mark it.
They mark it.
And when you were there, when you were standing right in front of that spot, you know whether you're a religious person or not.
True.
You know.
You just know.
You know something inside of you and everything around you tells you that.
Yes.
It's extraordinary.
You recall my moment of truth there too.
Father, here's a question for the listener.
I want to try to get some of them in.
Here's somebody who asks from Tucson.
If there are demonic possessions, are there ever angelic possessions?
What an interesting question.
There are?
Of course there are.
Of course there are.
I know people.
Not many, but I know people.
And I called them up on some crisis and said, by the way, such and such is needed in such and such a place.
And they'll say, well, there's help on the way.
And they talked with their angel.
And they live with them.
And it's extraordinary.
It covers the whole gamut from young teenage girls to grown men in responsible places in government.
And in science and the professions, to old people, to little children.
It runs the gamut.
Yes, there are.
Because the thrill of the demonic, there's all of that, I keep using that word because that's what attracts it, that adherence outweighs the angel.
And then we have a show, there's a series of picture of films on television about the angels.
And, of course, it's the travesty of what an angel really is.
And angelic behavior and appointments are treated like, I don't know, in a very, very non-angelic way.
Is there a war going on?
Yes, there is.
There's a war every day.
And whether you like it or not, we are all in it.
And it starts in your heart.
And it's with your hands and your feet and your body and your sexuality and your mind, as with everybody you meet.
I would like to read for you, Father, something sent by Dr. Richard Boylan, and it is on the Internet worldwide right now.
Monsignor Balducci, a Vatican theologian, insider, close to the Pope, ...has gone on national Italian television five times in recent months to proclaim that extraterrestrial contact is a real phenomenon.
He announced that the Vatican is receiving much information about extraterrestrials and their contacts with humans from its embassies in various countries such as Mexico, Chile, Venezuela, and more.
Monsignor Balducci said That he is on a Vatican Commission looking into extraterrestrial encounters and how to cope with the emerging general realization of extraterrestrial contact.
He provided the Catholic Church's analysis of extraterrestrials, emphasizing that extraterrestrial encounters, quote, are not, in capitals, demonic and are not due to psychological impairment and are not a case of entity attachment, but these encounters deserve to be studied carefully, end quote.
What can you tell me about this?
Well, Monsignore Corrado Valducci is now, I think he may be my age, in his seventies.
Yes, sir?
I think, what I can find out.
He is not a blowhard.
You know, he's not a publicity seeker.
The subject he discusses, and we're discussing now, and we'll be discussing this for quite a while, Art, especially in the light of things that will happen in the next year, um, we're discussing a subject which is so volatile, it's really the, uh, it's really the thought of... Oh, you hit a touchstone there.
I hit it with my ear, I'm sorry.
Pardon me, everybody listening, please pardon me.
Um, I, it's a volatile subject, Like natural glycerin.
It's ready to explode.
Because here's the central nub which Corrado Balducci and everybody faces is this.
Until the relevant governments... And I realize I'm walking on thin ice here.
Thin ice, indeed.
Thin ice of security.
Security.
National security and international security.
Yes.
So I've got to be very careful.
And Claudio Balducci, I hope, should be careful too.
Until the relevant governments, and not merely the government of the US, but other governments, are willing to put in public the facts about what they consider extraterrestrial activity, It is impossible to make sensible statements that make sense.
Statements that make sense.
And until they do, we're in the dark, really, as regards the general public.
We haven't got the scientifically controllable facts.
And I don't think we're going to have them very soon.
We have discussed this before, Father, but there is no question.
The Vatican has astronomical observatories all over the place.
One on Mount Graham, for example, that somehow the Vatican applied every bit of pressure that it had and blew by all the environmental concerns and got that facility in place.
And the question, just a good, simple, flat-out question, is what What would the Vatican be looking for in space, Father?
Well, as you know, the central doctrine taught by the Church is that Christ, Jesus of Nazareth, was the Son of God.
He died for all men, all rational beings.
And hitherto, in the thinking of Christianity, This has been confined to the human race.
Now, uh, Balducci rightly, um, points to phrases of Christ, of Jesus, that we pass over too easily.
When he appeared to him after the resurrection, he said, um, fear not.
It is I. All power has been given to me on earth and in the skies.
And while Balducci knows that as far as he can make out from the little details, the sparse details revealed by the relevant governments, that if there is any rational activity, technologically advanced beings, they're not in our galaxy.
They're transgalactic.
But we don't know.
We have no concrete evidence.
And it's like everything else, until we get concrete evidence given to us so we can touch and see and hear and measure, we're in the dark.
But, of course, the Vatican is absolutely riveted by the possibility that there are rational beings, not necessarily human beings.
Uh, outside in a transgalactic position, but we don't know.
So the great, the great, uh, the great, uh, uh, proviso, the great, uh, temporary proviso is to say we don't know.
We suspect, we think.
Uh, certainly, you see, in, in the time of Columbus, when he set out with those three ships to go to the Indies, One of the revolts, one of the mutinies he underwent was that the sailors believed once they passed a certain point that the nails holding the ship's planks would fall apart.
That's right.
They would disintegrate.
Right.
And they also had, we now know, the medieval myths about the men in Tibet.
Three-headed men and the four-headed lions and the five-foot dogs, etc., which were all mythical creatures.
And so, a lot of people are inclined to say, no, all this blather, all this talk about extraterrestrials is really, it's the tricks of the demon.
No, no, no, no, that's not rational thinking at all.
You're saying it is rational to conclude there is life out there, and obviously that's why they're looking for it?
It is rational to say that there is such secrecy about what is known By authority of government centers that we have to wait and see.
All right, father.
Hold it right there.
Good long break.
We'll be back from the high desert.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
♪♪ Obviously is paying close attention.
Very.
To space.
Very close tension.
And they are looking, I suspect, for something other than the rings around Saturn.
Look, Arch, put it like this.
If, I say now, it's an if, it's a hypothesis.
All right, Arch?
It's a very ominous statement.
The relevant governments, I stress this fact, the relevant governments were to submit to worldwide inspection and knowledge any facts proving the existence of rational beings, not necessarily humans, of rational beings outside our galaxy.
This It would be a crisis for the Roman Catholic Church like no other crisis in its 2,000 year history.
I have always presumed that myself, Father.
It would be a crisis of gigantic proportions.
Look, let me give you a shadowy parallel to it.
When Columbus did get to the Indies, namely get to the New World, And he brought back the news, and things had to go slowly in those days.
Carrier pigeons couldn't do it, and they had no telegraph.
But when they came back to Europe, that there had been millions, but millions of human beings who never heard of the Gospel, who never heard of Calvary, or of Jesus, or of the Church.
Theologians were stumped in the beginning.
And they started a discussion, which is still going on, by the way, which in Latin was always called De Salute Gentium, about the salvation of the peoples outside the Church, outside of Europe, which was considered to be totally Christianized.
St.
Thomas himself, for instance, says that it's possible that Homo Silvestris, a man living in a forest in Dalmatia, possibly hadn't heard of the Church, but all human beings have heard of the Church.
And suddenly they find out there have been millions, perhaps billions, of human beings that never heard, never heard about the Church and were never baptized.
Yes.
The crisis was huge in theology and started a whole new thought in Christian theology, which is still going on.
Now, if we find out there are beings, not necessarily human again, technologically advanced, Beyond where we are.
And they don't come down already knowing of the Word of God?
They don't know a thing about it.
Supposing they don't... Supposing... Have they got souls?
You know, were they saved by Christ?
Must we convert them?
Must we preach the Gospel?
Must we explain the Bible to them?
We don't know.
And the churches... Church men are totally unprepared for it.
They're too busy fooling around with Enneagrams.
And a lot of garbage of that kind.
But serious theology, and a remark, I who say it, and I'm paid to know it, in the Church today, in the Roman Catholic Church, there is no dominant school of philosophy or theology worthy of the name.
There is no theological development, no philosophical development.
Just a potpourri of modernism, And of, uh, phenomenology.
Well, let me give you something that might fit right into that category.
I interviewed a brilliant man, um, oh, I don't know, a week ago, I think, or two weeks ago.
His name is Matthew Alper.
Matthew Alper.
Alper, A-L-P-E-R.
And he wrote a book called The God Part of the Brain.
And it is his contention that mortal beings, uh, we are here for, um, 70, 80, 90, 100 years, not long.
That our brain, in defense of the entire concept of death, the brain actually developed, in its own defense, what he calls the God part of the brain, which compels those who are very much afraid of death to believe in something.
Believe in anything that even when you go and you examine the tribes That have not been touched by humanity.
Yeah, if it isn't God they do worship Something and it is his contention that that it is a natural part of evolution and I can so that's about the best I can do in explaining his position on But it was well articulated, and I would assume you would put it into the category you were just describing.
Yes, anyway, being a Roman Catholic, I firmly believe that without divine grace, which is not at all produced by anything human, by any endocrinological development, or by any neurological development in man, in a human being, but it's totally gratuitous.
From beyond the stars, and beyond this visible cosmos, and straight from the heart of God, to people he has said he loves so much that he sent his son to be with them, to be one of them, I believe that is the Roman Catholic position on the whole point.
And while there's no doubt about it that if one adopts the theory of evolution to some degree, it's so rickety nowadays that one is inclined to sort of stand back from it, Like a bag of bones that suddenly is collapsing between you and me and the Holy Spirit.
But in the evolutionary mentality as a hypothesis, because it's only that and still remains that, then I suppose we could talk about neurological and endocrinological developments from primitive man down to the present moment.
But there is that chasm, Art, that chasm between me and the divinity.
Which is utterly unknowable and awesome.
And I can never have it and I desire it.
I see its reflection in the beauty of this world.
Beautiful people and beautiful things.
But I can't have it of myself.
I have no power.
I must depend on this thought bending down in the midnight of my human misery and saying, I lift you up to my level because I love you.
That's the Christian message.
And doubtless there have been evolutionary trends, although sometimes... I come from Ireland, you know, and sometimes I must say, because being Irish I can say the following, some of the people I used to know in Ireland certainly seem to have missed out on evolution of the brain.
To a certain degree.
Nobody else but an Irishman could say that about Irish people.
It was a revolution.
Yeah, that's right.
Let's take some home calls.
Sure.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Hi.
Hello, this is Michael in Lincoln, Nebraska.
I have a question for you, Father.
Michael, how are you?
I'm fine, sir.
Thank you.
There was a big controversy a while back.
It was in the magazines and stuff about the Pope coming out and saying that Mary is co-redemptor with Christ.
Yes, he's not going to do that.
Now, I was going to ask you, what is your personal opinion?
Do you think that Mary is co-redemptor with Christ?
No.
No, no, no.
I don't think... Christ is the sole redeemer.
But, the position she has, she occupied during his life, and the position she's occupied amongst Catholics anyway since then, and in early Christianity until the Lutheran revolution, or revolt I should say really, in the 16th century, was that through her you reached her son.
It's very easy once you know the mother.
Okay, now you're saying if you get to know the mother, then you'll get to know him.
So are you saying that if we pray to Mary, Mary and the saints can answer our prayers?
Oh yes, they can.
Of course they can.
That's why, for example... In my Bible, I'm sorry sir, but in my Bible it says that there's only one mediator between God and man and that is... That's Christ.
That's Christ and he's the mediator.
He mediated between Mary and God and got her the grace she got.
She wouldn't have a thing except for him.
Okay.
But once she's been installed, she's a powerful lady.
Okay, now is that what the Catholic Bible says?
That's what the Catholic Church says.
See, Michael, for Catholics, the Bible is not the sole source of revelation.
Bible is one, tradition is another, and the teaching of the church is a third.
Tradition is a source of revelation?
Yeah, a source of revelation.
You see, Catholics hold that every apostle, until the death of the last apostle, there was a continual revelation going on, which is not confined to books.
It went into tradition, to actions, to customs, started by the apostles, all over the then known world, And those... You see, the Bible nowhere says... The Bible nowhere says that the Bible is the only source of revelation.
It's an extraordinary embarrassment to fling at non-Catholics, but the Bible nowhere says, I am the sole source of revelation.
Nowhere says it.
That was an assumption made by the Protestant Revolt.
He's got a good point, doesn't he?
I mean, but the Bible says that the Word, the written Word, the Logos, is God.
Well, the Logos in that case, Is Christ.
Yes.
Logos.
He is the Word.
And what we mean by that, what Catholics mean by it, is that Christ is God's expression of Himself.
Because, see Michael, God in Himself is unknowable.
I can never know God in Himself.
I can only know Him in Christ.
He is the Logos.
He is the Word.
The Verbum.
Right.
He's a mediator.
Yes, he's everything.
He's the only friend we have in time and in eternity.
You know?
He's the only one who can finally give me light and give me consolation and finally give me immortal life, which I yearn for and I lust after, but I can't get by my own self.
Right.
All right, Kohler.
Thank you very much.
Father?
Yes?
You are familiar with the, uh, the current science of, uh, cloning, aren't you?
Yes, I am.
Um, there are many, many, many scientists who are now saying, uh, that they have cloned Dolly, they have cloned, uh, other animals.
And I'm sure they're cloning people.
Are you aware that there is, um, there are, there are stories now suggesting that blood has been recovered from the Shroud of Turin?
Yes, I know they say that.
I don't know, I want to ask Captain Jackson, isn't that his name?
Is the Army, the Air Force man who has gone into all that.
I should talk with him one of these days.
They say they have recovered that blood.
Yes, with blood there would be DNA.
Obviously.
With DNA there would be the possibility of cloning and while it might be an unusual way to consider The second coming of Christ.
Yes, I get you.
I get the picture.
Yes.
They're talking of it, Father.
They are.
Well, there's one difficulty in the way, Art, and it's this, for me anyway.
It's this, that even twins, identical twins, with all these similarities and common instincts, they're distinct personalities.
They're always distinct.
And there's a marvelous study of twins that were separated at birth and then brought together in adult life.
Yes.
Which brings out this very clearly, that there is a common, they have a common heredity.
Yes.
They marry the same type of woman.
Yes.
They're bald in the same way.
Yes.
Their pubic hair is the same, and their height and girth and their inclinations.
But they have distinct personalities.
They're very distinct personae.
And the wife of one twin couldn't be attached to his twin.
But is it not possible to imagine that with the miracles that Christ performed, if they get intact DNA, they will discover a difference in the DNA of Christ?
I'm sure.
I'm sure they will find a distinction, a difference.
I'm sure they will, because... Wouldn't it kind of be the final irony, Father, if the scientists were the ones to propagate the Second Coming?
It would.
It would.
But it... There's a... There's... Yeah.
It seems to be highly improbable to me, but mentally, logically, scientifically, apart from Revelation and the unicity of Christ, I must say yes.
From that perspective, it seems possible.
From the point of view of Revelation and Christ's unicity, his unique position, it will never take place.
But that's where faith steps in.
Well, there may be surprises that lay ahead.
There may well be.
There may well be.
And the churchmen have to face them, and that's why there's a general closure Or really lip-sealing, lip-zipping amongst responsible churchmen in Rome and elsewhere about transgalactic beings.
But they won't take refuge in saying that it's demonic playthings, it's the devil playing with our senses to deceive us.
Yes, anyway, it's not sensible because, by the way, in the whole history of demonology and Luciferian interference with human beings, there's no parallel to that.
Except on issue, quote, Goethe's Faust, in which you have his descriptions of the witch's Sabbath on their brooms.
You know, but that's all fantasy.
All right.
Well, to the Rockies, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Hello.
Where are you?
This is Zip from Juneau, and I have two quick questions for your guest.
Oh, Juneau, Alaska.
The wet capital of Alaska.
Yes, sir.
It does rain here quite a bit.
Well, rain, we're all... By the way, we're 79% water, and the rest is love.
So don't run down water.
Well, I'm not going to call to talk about Bible or beliefs.
I know where you stand on that, and I've accepted Christ in my heart, and I know when I die, I know where I'm going.
So, what I wanted to ask you, sir, was Uh, have you ever considered that UFOs might be the mythology of the 20th century?
Seems how each civilization, when it's reached its pinnacle before it fell, it always had created, uh, its belief system around its technology.
And since our God is our technology, would it be, you know, just saying this to assume that, uh, we would create gods and its messengers and the image of technology?
Yes, yes, yes.
I have thought of it as that.
But in that I put the Star Trek series, you know.
And a lot of the science fiction, that it is a creative mythology based on our technological advances, yes, as a mythology.
But Jeepers Weepers, pardon my language, Art, what a poor mythology compared to Greek and Roman and Indian mythology.
You know, the richness of that mythology, the lessons for human beings, even in the myths of the Greek gods and legends.
There's such lessons about human moral behavior and human behavior as such.
But in Star Trek, or in such productions, it's sort of a dry dust mythology that has none of the old moralizing, and I love the word moralizing, and I love moralizing tales, Um, it is none of that, and therefore I haven't got much attraction to it, but I agree with you.
It is a mythology created by our technology.
Huh.
Alright, um, we don't have a lot of time.
First Time Caller line, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Hello.
Hello, Art.
Yes, sir.
Where are you?
This is Ron from Minnesota.
Hi, Ron.
Hi, Ron.
Hi, Father Martin.
I had a question.
Uh, you said that, uh, you believe that the Antichrist is alive in the world today?
Yes, I do.
And I also believe that I was wondering what your view on the rapture of the church is.
All right.
Father?
Well, there's no... In the Catholic tradition about the Bible, the rapture and all that is overshadowed by the normal belief of the church for 1900 years that at one particular moment there's going to be a great assemblage in the presence of Christ Of all men and women who have ever lived and are living, and there will be the general judgment and the particular judgment, and the condemnation of the wicked tale, and the leaving of the just to heaven forever.
Father, on that note, hold on.
We'll be right back.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
Good morning.
Our father Martin talked of persons perfectly possessed by the devil.
Yes.
You can ignore this question, Father, if you wish.
In the opinion of Father Martin, is Bill Clinton perfectly possessed?
No comment.
I had a feeling that you might say that.
All right, let's go back to the lines.
First time caller line, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Hello?
Hello there.
Yes, um, this is Annie from Valencia, California.
Yes, Annie.
Um, Father, I have a couple of questions for you.
The first one being, do you know Dr. Charles Stinson?
Dr. Charles whom?
Stinson.
Stinson?
No, I don't.
Out of Dartmouth?
No, I don't, ma'am.
Okay.
Um, another question I had was, I understand that you were a former Jesuit?
That's right, I was for 25 years.
And what order are you in now?
I'm not in any order.
I belong to a bishop and I have, you know, I write books and go on radio and TV.
Right, okay.
I'm 77, retired in that sense, but not retired in the active sense.
Right, you're still a priest.
Oh, I say Mass every day.
Right, okay.
I had another question that I thought of and I wondered if You could shed a little light on this.
The underground city... The underground church over there?
No, the city.
The underground city in or near Rome.
Are you referring to the catacombs below the Vatican?
No, I'm talking about an underground city that is actually in place now for the New World Order.
Many of the Japanese and the Chinese and many of the European countries have started their... It's underground.
And it's near Rome.
But it's not... I mean, you have the advantage.
I don't know anything about it.
I don't know a thing about it either.
You tell me.
No, I guess... I guess we're going to have to wonder.
She's already gone.
But I've never heard anything about it.
Here is a criticism, Father.
Yes.
Let me read it to you.
Sure.
Aren't you and your guest's comments are pointing out what most true Christians know to be the inherent blasphemous nature of the Catholic religion?
Your guest himself made a blasphemous statement when he said that Jesus was, quote, bled like a pig, and, quote, excuse me, and he better ask God to excuse him too, Jesus was bled like a lamb.
Anyone at all familiar with the scripture knows, I think, You should make an on-air apology.
Well, I will make an apology if it hurt the sensibility of anybody.
We don't bleed lambs, actually.
We do bleed pigs.
And I wasn't comparing Jesus to a pig, either.
Taken like that, it is very offensive, and I apologize without any difficulty, and I won't use it again since I've offended at least one other person on the face of the earth with that phrase.
Uh, and I see that it could be taken, uh, indelicately.
And I apologize very much, because I venerate the Lord Jesus as my Savior.
Well, I'm sure the intent was not negative, uh, and I understand what you're saying precisely.
Well, I apologize.
I sincerely apologize, and I take correction on that point.
Uh, Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Hello.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Where are you, sir?
Really?
This is Ron in Los Angeles.
Hi, Ron.
You're going to have to yell at us a little.
You're not too strong.
Sorry.
Oh, that's all right.
Go ahead.
Good morning, Father Malachi.
Good morning to you, Ron.
What's on your mind?
I have a question about one of the Trinity, the Holy Ghost.
Yes.
Never explained to me.
And I have a paradox for you.
You said look to the sky.
Yes, that was in one particular period of last year.
Last year, 1997, Christmas Eve, Christmas night, a halo in the sky.
That's right.
Well, no, it was a period from the beginning of spring, no, from the end of winter to the end of spring.
There was a possibility that there would be some sign in the sky.
There wasn't.
Yes, I saw a halo.
Yes, there was, but it wasn't the sign I was looking for.
You were looking for?
Does the color of the halo make any difference?
I don't think so.
And the sign I'm looking for is none of that kind.
Would have been unmistakable?
Unmistakable.
Well, that's my paradox.
What was it?
Well, Ron, I'd rather wait until we will see it because it will be in the skies in these years.
It hasn't come yet.
We will know it when we see it, unmistakably.
Okay, thank you.
Alright, thank you.
Uh, East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Hi.
Hi, uh, this is Charles in Tampa.
Hi, Charles.
Uh, I'd like to, um, ask the Father, um, given that God is so incomprehensible, if he doesn't think that each culture will come up with a name and a mythology and a symbol set around God by its own cultural metaphors and thus any other culture that we meet will know God, but by a different name.
Yes, if I understand the question, here's what I would say to it.
Charles, is that the name?
Yes.
That he is unknowable in himself, but he has taken trouble to reveal himself.
And as Jesus said, who sees me, sees the Father.
Who knows me, knows the Father.
And that's the only way we can know God, but we can know him in Christ.
And whatever variation each culture puts on that, Beginning with the color of the skin, because there are black Christs, there are yellow Christs, statues, and there are Occidental-looking Christs, and Chinese-looking Christs, you know?
That cultural variation is only a human way of talking about one and the same person, and when we finally look on his face, we will find that he's unique to himself.
Well, of course, when you explain something to a child, you use metaphor because you're explaining something beyond his comprehension.
That's right.
That's right.
It's a very simple thing.
It's a question of pedagogy.
But I'm sure the reality of Christ is stunning and will entail every trace of beauty that... Call toll-free 1-800-618-8255.
Done that.
But we have got to wait until we see him in heaven, please God, before we know that.
Thank you very much, sir.
Cultural difference doesn't make a difference.
All right, thank you, caller, and take care.
Dear Art, Father Martin has made several references to a different government in the United States in the coming years or so.
Can he explain what he refers to?
Well, here's what I mean.
I think that the tendency, in spite of the Congress, by the way, because we're a calcitrant of our Congress, I think that the whole concept of national sovereignty is changing.
And that laws will have to be passed, will have to be observed and accepted in states, not made by Americans, but made by greater bodies.
To which we will be bound by treaty and pact and agreement.
Number one.
Number two, you and I have made various references tonight to the Y2K problem.
Yes.
It's coming on us.
Apparently, according to authorities just published, the two departments of government in the United States who will not be ready for Y2K are the Department of Defense and the Department of Transport.
But it does mean, and then some big authority, not Greenspan, but somebody of that stature has suggested that we should declare three months worldwide recession.
Because we won't be ready for it.
We simply will not have converted the chips.
To cope with anything beyond 2000.
This is what I am told by every single person.
Yeah, there's no doubt about it, but they don't want to frighten people.
Therefore, I'm sure there's going to be something resembling martial law in some form or other.
If there's that disruption of supplies, supplies of fuel, Electricity, water, food.
So people should prepare with the basics?
They should, but the point I'm making, that's true, that's true.
But the point I'm making is that we will be constrained by laws that change the face of America, at least for a while.
And we may never go back.
In fact, you can read spiritual writers writing currently who say this is a lovely neat trick To impose Big Brother on us all.
Sure.
You know, you can suspect all sorts of conspiracies, but de facto, we are now walking into an era when anything can be disrupted.
I must tell you one thing, Art Apropos, if I could take just one minute.
Yes, sir.
I went to the Emporium about two months ago to buy something, buy some food, and On that day, down at the Emporium, here on 3rd Avenue, where I go, and it's in the basement, and the lines were all crowded, and all the women were, the tellers were dispensing their money, and the central people were walking out with their food, and there were lines, and there always are lines.
And suddenly, the electricity died out, and no computer worked.
Yes.
And we stood in mute silence.
We couldn't get our money.
They couldn't take our money.
We couldn't get our food.
We didn't want to go.
We had already taken our supplies in the usual little carts they give us.
But it was a symbol of what can happen when the juice stops.
It was very frightening.
Yes, there was a movie that I recently saw, which I just at this moment cannot recall the title of.
It was about exactly that scenario.
The power went off.
And the power stayed off.
And in the first little bit of the time, everything was relatively normal.
People got candles.
But very shortly, the food stopped.
The sales stopped.
Cars stopped.
People began running out of gas.
It turned into Absolute anarchy.
Murderous, I might add, anarchy.
Very quickly.
And there had to be martial law.
Oh well, where possible.
Now, we are a nation of 260 million people.
And really the only thing that allows a law and order to reign is the basic respect of the massive number of people.
That's right.
That's right.
For the law, and if enough of them turned against the law, there could be no law enforcement, there would be no law enforcement, there would be anarchy.
There would be chaos and anarchy, there's no doubt about it.
If you ever get a chance, my wife just handed it to me, it was called the Trigger Effect.
The Trigger Effect?
Yes, and it was about exactly what you were just discussing.
Is it a book?
It is a movie.
Oh, I see.
It is a movie.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Hello.
Hello, this is Ron from Vancouver.
Hi, Rhonda.
Hi.
And I'd just like to say it's an honour talking to you, father.
Actually, the very first time you came on, I forget when it was, months ago, was the very first time I started listening to Art Bell.
And I've been an Art Bell fan ever since.
Thank you.
Yes, very good.
And, uh, I was wondering, um, this business about the cloning, um, I, I really don't think, uh, there, there would, um, if, if they would clone, it wouldn't really matter, uh, because, um, didn't, um, wasn't Christ's truth, um, power spiritual, and didn't it indeed come from God himself?
Well, you see, Christ was God, is God.
Yes.
Being the son of God.
He's God's word.
Yeah, it would be, that's why I said to Arthur, theoretically it sounds possible, practically speaking, he couldn't be cloned.
Well, why would all the... Unless God chose that as the method, as the method.
Now, I just thought, sort of idly, what a great joke on the scientists, but Yes, it would be.
The only thing is that the revelation which we're supposed to accept, and we do accept, says that Christ himself, the historical figure Christ, will return in his entirety on the last day for the final judgment.
And not a clone, but himself, with that body, and that blood, and that divinity, which we receive in Holy Communion.
Have you given much thought to how far off that day is?
Yes, I have.
and I don't use the word far.
Ha ha ha ha ha Um, I mean we meet on a night
when when there is news of a
an exorcist brutally murdered when there's news of murders and suicides
in the Vatican and things that are just virtually unthinkable
what about that?
I know, I know.
These seem to be signs pointing towards something.
Of course they are.
And the behavior of what we call El Nino is part and parcel of it all.
And the earthquake in Japan, 7 point something, is a sign.
7.7, Father.
Yes, I consider that to be a part of the signs, but we, as usual, we're going to wait until it hits over the head.
Father, would you be surprised to know that I have a very good friend in Australia who watches the US Naval satellite maps of ocean temperatures very carefully, and six months Or even better, before this El Nino began to build, he told us it was coming.
Now, the El Nino has just started to lessen, and I just spoke with him, and he said, guess what?
There's off the coast of Japan now, even bigger heating going on, indicating to him that there may be a larger El Nino building for this coming year.
My lord, that is very, very... I'm going to retain that fact.
I'm going to retain that fact.
It's significant.
Well, there are undeniable changes going on.
A 75 square mile portion of the Larsen B ice shelf just broke off.
Scientists, yes, are saying that the entire ice shelf is now critically unstable and they expect the entire thing to fall off shortly.
Is this the Arctic Circle?
Antarctic.
Huh.
The Antarctic.
Well, that is very interesting.
I find it very relevant and interesting.
You see, Art, I think that all of us, without going to extremes, we all have a feeling that something huge is developing and coming.
We don't know what it is.
We're being sensible about it.
You know, we're not getting hysterical.
There is something happening, there's no doubt about it.
No, you live one day at a time, of course.
You do.
And life goes on, but there is this building feeling of imminent change.
There's no doubt about it, and it's a malaise, really, deep down inside us.
It's a malaise.
It's an easy, squeezy feeling that we're sensing something which we can't name, and we're undergoing a change, and we don't know into what.
We know what we were.
We don't know where we're going.
Yes.
An ending, an ending and a beginning.
That's right.
It's a historic time to be alive and to be conscious.
But when I think of my ancestors, my near-aunts, my father and mother who were married in 1909 and who grew up in the Victorian era.
My God.
Yes.
Tranquility and the peacefulness.
And the unsurprised behavior of their world, you know.
Father, I have kept you up very late.
I have one last hour of the program as usual, which you are welcome to or you may slip into the arms of Morpheus and grab some sleep.
It's your choice at this point.
Yes.
What would you like to do?
Oh, I will go on.
You will go on?
Well, my lines are going crazy, so a lot of people want to talk to you.
What I'll try to do is devote the last hour as much as possible to the phones.
Okay, okay.
Alright, very good.
My guest is Father Malachi Martin from New York City.
If you have questions for him, we will devote the bulk of this last hour to your questions.
It is indeed a strange, unnerving night.
Very, very, very unnerving.
A double murder and suicide in the Vatican.
A priest performing exorcisms, themselves murdered brutally.
A satanically... Strange times, wouldn't you admit, folks?
From the high desert, I'm Art Bell and this is Coast to Coast AM.
♪♪ Which I love doing.
I really love doing.
And as long as I make sense, keep me on.
Cut me off when I stop making sense.
By the way, you sound so very good.
Bob Crane, we had Bob Crane send you a telephone.
I know, I got that lovely telephone.
It's installed.
I'm speaking on it.
What a difference it makes.
Alright, listen to this.
Hi Art, please tell Father Malachi Martin This is from a programmer in Arizona.
That the Y2K problem is all too real.
No hoax.
It's every bit as serious as he believes it is.
If the problems had begun to be addressed in the last few years, there might have been hope.
Now, it's too late.
Prepare art?
There is no better preparation than faith in Christ.
From a programmer in Arizona.
It's very realistic.
And very soon as well.
Oh yes, it's around the corner Art.
Alright, this as well.
Please ask the Father to tell us anything he can, or he's willing to, about the prophecy of Fatima.
Well, the prophecy of Fatima, without going into my background in this matter, the prophecy of Fatima is not a pleasant document to read.
It's not pleasant news.
It implies.
It doesn't make any sense unless we accept that there will be or that there is in progress a wholesale apostasy amongst clerics and laity in the Catholic Church That the institutional organization of the Roman Catholic Church, that is, the organization of parishes, dioceses, archbishops, and bishops, and cardinals, and the Roman bureaucracies, and the chanceries throughout the world, unless that is totally disrupted, and rendered null and void, the Third Secret makes no sense.
And number two, The other salient characteristic about it is that it means intense suffering.
I don't know what the third secret is, Father.
The third secret... Lucia, Sister Lucia, who's still alive, the only surviving child of the three Fatima children.
She's 89 now.
She lives in Coimbra, in the Carmelite Convent in Spain.
She...
was prevailed upon by her Bishop to write down the third secret.
Our Lady conveyed two secrets to the children.
We know the first two, but the third secret, Lucia, since she was the only survivor, refused to tell anybody.
And finally, the Bishop said, look, we're all getting on in age, sister, write it down and we'll send it over to the Pope.
And she said, well, it's not destined for the Pope, it's destined for the people.
Well, he said, the Pope will tell the people about us.
So she wrote it down, and this is in the 30s, and then in the 50s, it was conveyed over to Rome to Pius XII, Pope Pius XII, and Cardinal Ottaviani, who was the head of the Holy Office of that time.
They put it away because Lucia said, That it shouldn't be opened except by the Pope in 1960.
Because the thing would be clear then.
So, it was opened by John XXIII in February 1960.
And he proceeded to say that it wasn't true.
It was unreliable.
And the children didn't know what they were talking about.
And Lucia didn't because when she got this supposed secret from the Virgin, She was illiterate.
She was under 10 years old.
So she couldn't know what she was talking about.
And John 23rd, then in his opening speech at the Vatican Council on October 11, 1962, referred contemptuously to the three children as prophets of doom.
And said, we today, we don't have anything to do with these prophets of doom.
Because we are in different age.
And so he suppressed the secret.
And it remains so today?
It remains so today.
And it's Paul VI read it.
Pope Paul VI and did nothing about it.
John Paul I read it and did nothing about it.
But he only lived for 34 years as Pope.
And John Paul II has read it twice.
And has done nothing about it.
He has spoken about it in public.
But he has done nothing about it.
And that's the status of the secret today.
Do you know what it is?
Yes, but I'm under oath.
Do you consider it to be the ravings of an illiterate child?
No, no.
It's a very exact description Of what is now happening and apparently what is going to happen shortly.
But in cold, hard terms.
There's no... There's no exaggeration.
There's no use of adjectives or adverbs or anything like that.
It's a blanket statement.
A very factual thing.
Stated baldly.
With no adulteration.
No flourishes.
No purple patches.
In other words, they got exactly what they asked for.
Yeah, it's a frightening document.
It's very frightening.
All right, I promise to go to the lines.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Hello.
Hello.
Yes, sir.
Yes, this is Ron from Vancouver again.
Hello, Ron.
Hello, Ron.
Oh, you were on earlier, Ron?
Yes, I was.
Oh, you're only allowed one call per show, my friend.
Well, can you ask the question that I asked you?
What question is that?
Uh, is the sign in the sky that Father is supposed to see, is that a sign of a cross?
Well, uh, I think you're not going to get your answer.
Um, at least, uh, if I read his comments earlier, you will know it when you see it.
In the meantime, uh, relax!
First time caller of the line?
Yeah, there you are.
First time caller of the line, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Hello.
Yes, this is Eric in Houston.
Hello Eric.
Yes, one quick comment and then a question.
In addition to the mounting, I don't want to seem flip about it, but the mounting body count, let's not forget the Archbishop down in Guatemala that was assassinated.
Oh yes, let's not forget that, you're quite right.
And the other thing I have to say is you've spoken very early on, you spoke about a secularizing Tenancy in the Vatican and I'm just wondering if you're not looking at the past through sepia colored glasses Yeah, leaving aside the Borgia Popes and all that.
I mean in the last hundred years, you know, there there was a sort of up until very recently kind of a cozy relationship in in with the church in Italy and the mafia and You had the relationship with the Vatican and Mussolini that established the Vatican State in 1929, and then you had the fact of the Vatican accused of running Nazi war criminals on their way to South America.
Yes, yes.
Would you care to comment?
Well, you have sort of listed a series of deficiencies of Vatican officials in the last 30, 40, 50 years, although I would not ...characterize the relationship between Mussolini and the Vatican as, in any terms, loving.
They hated each other.
But they both profited.
Mussolini wanted the support of the Vatican.
He was afraid the people would revolt against him.
He wanted its approval.
And the Vatican wanted to break out of its closure and get its own sovereign state, which it got in 1929 only, through Mussolini.
But with that restriction though, sure, there were churchmen who provided the rat lines for the escaping Nazis.
There's no doubt about that.
How could that possibly have been justified?
It wasn't.
It was justified by money, and ambition, and stupidity, and evil.
And nobody's justifying it today at all.
How then, Father, does that separate The Vatican, then or now, from whatever else goes on in the world that we decry and worry so about?
Well, it's something which we hope will never happen again.
There's no excuse for it.
At all.
None whatever.
And I'm the first person to say it was wrong, wrong, wrong.
And that there's no excuse for it.
It was a bad mistake by Churchmen bent ideologically and not with any love of Christ.
So there's no excuse for that.
Now secularization I'm talking about though is where the behavior of Vatican officials doesn't differ from the behavior of the Dalai Lama.
Or the Archbishop of Canterbury.
Or the Protestant monks of Taizé.
And indeed there is a great assimilation taking place.
And that is secularization.
Besides the Pope appearing on the same stage as Bob Dylan.
You know, okay, but it's a funny situation.
Funny, funny.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Good morning.
Good morning, Art.
Thanks for holding me over here.
All right, you're going to have to kind of yell at us.
You're not too loud.
Where are you?
Okay, my name is Brad, and I'm in Paulsville, Washington.
All right.
I'm Brad.
What's on your mind?
Hi, Father Malachi.
Hi.
Well, bear with an amenity.
You've been a hero for, well, since 1974.
Thank you very much.
It's a very nice thing for a poor old guy like me to hear.
You must admit that.
Indeed.
Well, now to my question.
I consider myself to be something of a seeker and in recent years I've kind of stumbled across something I've read through another scholar by the name of Zachariah Sitchin and he became such a center of attention for me that I went to the trouble of trying to learn some of these Languages myself so I could read it in the original.
Mm-hmm.
And some of the things that I found reminded me a lot of what I was seeing in the Old Testament.
Yeah.
And am I practicing something that is akin to apostasy here, or what's going on with this?
Am I seeing what I think I'm seeing, or is there a connection here?
You must tell us what you're seeing.
I see the story of Abraham being told, but in a different way.
Father Abraham?
And I see it being told from the viewpoint of someone who is being visited by something that may or may not be of this earth.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, uh, treating with it as if it is a living thing.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, uh, it causes me concern on the one hand, but on the other hand, uh, I, I, as it is something that is written in clay.
Yes.
And something that is carried forward.
Mm-hmm.
I, uh, I really don't see Mr. Splitfoot in it.
Neither do I, actually, Brad.
Neither do I. I'm cautious in my adhesion to it, but I don't see Mr. Splitfoot in it either.
I'm just terribly cautious until I can get what we moderns call facts, you know?
But I agree with you.
I'm very wary of it all.
Uh, because I want to be sure of the facts, that's all.
All right.
Uh, Eaves to the Rockies, you're on the air with Father Malachi.
Martin, hello.
Hello, good morning.
Good morning, sir.
Where are you?
I'm in Cleveland, Ohio.
Okay.
Uh, this is, might be a frivolous question, considering what's been talked about tonight, but, um, you were, obviously you performed exorcisms and things like that, and I was just wondering if It was possible for an evil person to do the same to someone who believes in God.
It is possible for a person who is possessed to what?
To, you know, perform something akin to an exorcism on someone who does believe in God.
In other words, where... In other words, for evil to corrupt a good person?
Yeah, in the way that, you know, you would exorcise an evil spirit from a person.
Could someone do the same, take a good spirit from a person?
That makes sense.
Yes, it makes sense in the sense that I know of cases where somebody who everybody would have said lived with a good spirit, was with the angels, was with the heavenly, was successfully turned around.
Yes.
Why?
You know, so many things seem possible that a casual observer and thinker of Our Lord just wouldn't imagine to be possible little children condemned to hell by their parents who know how to do it and and what you just mentioned.
Father, hold on.
We're at the bottom of the hour.
It does move quickly, doesn't it?
From the high desert, I'm Art Bell and this is Coast to Coast AM.
♪♪ Um, a voice.
So, here we go.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Hi.
Hello, Art.
It's Steve from Vancouver, British Columbia.
Hi, Steve.
Yeah, I'm listening on C-Fun.
Yes, sir.
Yeah, uh, I just want to say, Art, that radio doesn't get any better than this, your show tonight.
Well, um, yes, it, it, it, uh, I agree with you.
Father Martin, uh, thank you for being you.
And thank you for bringing such comfort to me and so many other listeners in this time of stressful times.
Thank you for saying that, sir.
I feel that so deeply.
I have a question.
Yes.
Can we, as a conscious feeling majority, ameliorate the negative devil influence scenario of today?
Yes, we can, by prayer, by fasting, and by having the grace of God in us.
If we partake of the sacraments we'll get that sanctifying grace and we can mitigate it.
The only restriction is that today there is no real coagulated community of believers.
Instead now we're broken up into small communities and it's usually one-on-one.
That's our isolation today because in every country you can find There are three components.
There's the government, which is very important today in every country.
Secondly, there's the business community.
And thirdly, then, there's a gaggle of organizations, NGOs, non-governmental organizations, everything from Mothers Against Drunk Driving over to the International Firemen's Association and the various churches, including the Roman Catholic Church.
And we're all in the public square.
Uh, competing for men's attention.
No longer is the church, or a church, or the church, no longer has any privileged position in our modern public square.
In fact, in the Constitution of the United States, whatever about Canada, the Supreme Court has said twice in the last four years that anybody who enters the public square in America with a religious ideology, he has no place.
It has no place in the public square.
It's a private matter.
So that's the difference.
But we can make a difference by having the grace of God.
And by our prayer and fasting.
We can cast out devils.
We can win.
We can merit for other people.
We can convert them by our prayers.
Because that's what Jesus died for.
That's why we have the saints and the angels.
But well, today is an uphill battle.
I sure hope that we can, Father Martin, but it seems that there is such an insidious force that is against us.
There is.
I know that.
I know that.
And you have to be very strong.
And the majority of the people are good people.
They are.
Why can we not purge this negative influence from us?
You're asking me then, that's a very concrete question, really.
It's this, what has happened in the last 30, 35, 40 years?
What I think has happened, the Roman Catholic Church, of which I'm a priest, and a faithful priest, and I say it deliberately so that you would know I'm not in any sense rebelling against it, I'm a part of it and I say my mass every morning and do the usual things a priest does, The fact is, I think that once the church men of the Roman Catholic Church drifted into grave error after the Vatican Council, I think Christ said, OK, you want to go that way?
All right.
I'm not with you.
And he withdrew his grace.
And therefore we have this devastation of Catholic marriages, this devastation of Catholic religious orders, The major ones above all, Jesuits, Dominicans, Carmelites, Holy Ghost Fathers, all devastated.
And the lack of cohesive theological thinking and philosophical thinking in the church is glaring and discouraging.
Christ whisked through His grace.
And that was His decision, in view of our infidelity, because our churchmen were unfaithful and are unfaithful to Him.
I think that's where we are, but we still can have his grace, we can receive his body and blood, and we can be protected by the angels and the saints, but now we're in a battle.
There's a bloody battle going on.
It seems that way.
It does.
It is that way.
It is that way.
And even our Lord himself, the gentle Jesus said, if we didn't mitigate those times, Even the just would not remain in faith.
But doesn't it seem so unfair that the great majority of the people are good people?
It does.
We seem to have a minority who are putting this great scourge upon the earth.
I know, I know, I know it does seem that.
And by the way, millions... The Catholic Church now reckons it's a billion plus membership.
But millions of those have been led by the nose out of Catholicism.
Into an apostasy and they don't know it.
But that happened in England from 1529 on.
Millions of English men and English women lived and died in grave error because of the leadership of a few men.
So it's... God... I don't know.
My friend from the Bronx always says that God has a funny sense of humor.
And this is not a sense of humor, but he has a way of treating things.
He deals with each individual soul delicately, tenderly, compassionately, but he deals with groups of people according to certain laws.
And he always observes those laws.
And that means that the innocent are punished with evil.
Christ himself, on his way to Calvary, The women of Jerusalem who knew him and whose children he had cured and taught were weeping about him and he said, don't cry for me.
No, I'm just the Greenwood.
And look what they're doing to me.
What do you think they're going to do to you?
All right, caller?
Thank you.
Thank you very much indeed.
Thank you.
Here's something that I suppose we ought to consider, Father.
Yes.
Dear Art, I am writing in advance of Malachi Martin's scheduled appearance on Tuesday morning to convey some ideas to you on the subject of foreboding.
To relate these ideas to statements that Father Martin made during his last appearance on your program and ask that you consider raising them with him as they pertain to his experience at some point during the upcoming Tuesday morning appearance.
I think in cases when people have a dark sense of foreboding that something terrible is going to happen to the earth or society as a whole.
It's often because they are projecting scenarios occurring within their own psyches and personal lives out On to that world, seeing them unfold out there where they truly are not, rather than within the realm of their own personal lives where they are actually occurring.
That does happen.
It's a true statement of a lot of people.
The only thing, Art, is that at an earlier point in this broadcast, you and I both agreed that the general feeling was malaise.
I do agree.
I mean... I do agree.
I don't think this is internalizing on my part or your part.
It's absolutely real.
It's too general.
You should read a sober journal like the Wall Street Journal, for instance.
I mean, my God!
You know?
They're all right.
They're not pessimists.
But their realism is very stark.
You know?
Very stark, yes.
Very stark.
Take the normal big newspapers and the magazines.
There are some Pollyannish people, you know, everything's the best for... And we have them in the Catholic Church, too.
We have a man called Carl Keating, who writes rapturously about the new evangelization.
There's nothing going on at all in the Catholic Church, except decadence.
But we have those people like Carl Keating, and we've got to put up with them because they feel happy that way.
They do attack the rest of us.
But no, I take that criticism very, very well.
We do incline to project things, but in this case it's co-confirmed by millions of others that I do not feel it's subjective on my part.
The last time, this is sort of a totally off the track question, but the last time the Pope was traveling...
There was rather extensive coverage of it on CNN.
And they had you as sort of an advisor, I guess.
A commentator and advisor, that's right.
And every time that they would start to go to you, CNN would break away.
Yes, they would.
It was very funny.
We all noticed that.
You noticed that, too.
Oh, yes, we did.
It drove me out of my mind.
I know.
But the message I had to give was something that didn't fit well.
With the power of the beat.
Oh, really?
It didn't, obviously it didn't, because I was interrupted.
But I got the point across all right.
I see.
I'll be darned.
First time caller line, you're on the air with Father Malachi.
Martin, where are you, please?
Hi, I am in Colorado.
Colorado, okay.
Hi, ma'am.
Hi.
First of all, I just want to say, Father Martin, you are very much a man with the Spirit of God in you.
I just cannot believe, this is the first time I've ever heard you.
And it's just wonderful listening to you.
Thank you, ma'am, very much.
Oh, well, you're very welcome, my God.
I just have a question about Satan worship.
Yes.
Well, this might sound kind of personal for me, but I think it might apply to a lot of other people out there that might be listening.
Yes.
About six years ago, my sister and I started having memories of Things that had happened to us when we were small children.
Mm-hmm.
We remember going out in the desert.
My parents took us there.
Yes.
And it was out in the Mojave.
And there was like a ceremony with this leader.
And I don't remember too much because I don't let myself remember.
But... What age were you?
I was eight.
So she was probably six.
Was there the use of fire?
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Now that you bring it up.
What?
Now that you bring it up, yes.
And was there any use of bones?
Oh, I don't remember that, no.
But we both remember specific details, exactly.
You know, both of us remember the same thing.
We remember a baby being killed, and a woman upholding the baby, and That was... This is what Satan is.
There's no doubt about that.
Usually, what they do is they... They either ate or... Pardon my language.
It's repulsive to our minds.
Anyway, they eventually arrived at having the baby's bones.
And they used that to make a certain type of... Not music, but a certain type of sound.
Which they interpret as the voice of Satan.
But it's always dead baby's bones.
Oh my!
That was Satanism.
Are you a Christian?
Yeah, very much.
That is what has gotten me through a lot of things.
You know, my belief that there is somebody watching over me and whoever it might be, I don't know.
Did you ever consider Catholicism?
Well, my ex-husband was a Catholic and I used to go to Masses with him.
But that got a little bit hard for me.
Was it the New Mass or the Old Mass?
Uh... New.
New, yeah.
It wasn't in Latin, is that what you mean?
Yes, that's right.
Yeah.
Well, that got me down, too.
I never went to it, but... Oh, no!
I always said the Old Mass and never said anything else.
But the New Mass would get me down anyway.
But, uh... I'll tell you, without prolonging it too much, um... Next time you're in prayer, Ask our Lord Jesus to enlighten you and to give you strength and guidance as he has up to this.
That was my question.
How can I help myself to remember?
Because I feel like I'm stuck.
I wouldn't be intent on remembering so much.
I would be intent on what I do now as regards the worship of Jesus who is God and the cultivation of his angels And, um, seeking out some good priest.
A good priest.
And talking to him.
And surely in Colorado you must find somebody.
Would they believe me, though?
What?
Would they believe me?
If they're a good priest, they'll believe you and they'll know what I know from what you say.
Because I have been to a couple of therapists and just mentioned this, you know, about my past.
Yeah.
And they tried to turn it into something else.
It was like they didn't believe me.
I know they don't.
Yeah.
Do you know the difficulty is this?
It's not therapy you need.
It's healing.
It does a big difference.
Therapy consists of a mixture of conversation and logic and pharmacology.
That's therapy, but that really makes you viable.
You know?
You can carry on.
But it doesn't heal the soul.
Only the grace of our Lord Jesus does that.
You're making me cry.
Well, that's clear, though.
Tears are very, very salvific, darling.
Don't be afraid of them.
But evidently, Christ has touched your heart.
And if you pray, he will send you a good priest.
Well, thank you very much.
God bless you, ma'am.
And I hope you have helped other people out there, too.
Please, God.
You take care, ma'am.
Thank you.
Bye-bye.
Father Martin, the last time you were on, we gave out your address.
Yes.
And you got too much mail.
No, no, I didn't.
You didn't?
No, no.
I got a lot of mail, but we're getting through it all.
And you see, it's unfair if people can't write at least a short letter explaining what's on their minds.
Provided they all realize that sometimes it takes a long time to get out answers, even short answers.
But there's a desire to answer every problem, every question put.
All right, Father Malachi Martin, obviously.
What is the address?
217 East 66th Street, New York, New York 10021.
Okay, let me see if I've got that straight.
Father Malachi Martin, 217 East 66th Street, New York, New York, 10021.
That's right.
And everybody, please do understand that there's a lot of correspondence that is coming his way, so you will get an answer, but it will take time.
As all good things do.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Hello.
You are, and I'm glad you have Father on.
Thank you.
My favorite guest.
Thank you very much.
Father, um, couple, one, two questions.
One from the past and one from the present.
Yes.
Um, during the time Saint Paul was talking about, uh, people were talking about the end times.
Yes, they were.
And people were selling all their property and giving everything away.
And he said, that's very bad.
You should stand up right now.
That's right.
And can't that be used right now by the powers to be to make people give up?
And in terms of the end times, it wasn't an act.
Peter coming out and saying that the end times are now, and he was talking about great portents in the earth, and then in Acts 3, he says that Christ must make his dwelling in heaven until all time, all the earth is made anew, meaning that all earth is made under Christendom.
That's right.
Could you comment on that?
By merely repeating those words, sir, to my mind, you've said it all.
You've really done it.
There's no doubt about it.
But when Art and I talk, we're talking about the fact that today there is something else taking place, which is apocalyptic in that sense.
It's part of the end times.
It's the emergence of a world you and I don't know, because I guess from your voice that we belong to the same generation, more or less.
Same cultural generation, same political generation, really.
Well, it is not only End Times, Father, but it's End Times for my program.
I'm so sorry.
We are flat out of time.
We are flat out of time.
Flat out of time, at least for this round.
But one thing is for sure, and that is, God willing, you'll be back and I'll have you back.
Lovely.
Father, thank you so very much.
So it's over for tonight?
I'm afraid it is.
That's all right, Art.
God bless.
Take care, my friend.
Thank you.
That, ladies and gentlemen, is Father Malachi Martin.
From New York.
From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
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