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April 17, 1998 - Art Bell

02:49:37

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Fred Alan Wolf - Theoretical Physicist - Taking the Quantum Leap

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37:00

linda moulton howe

13:52

richard c hoagland

06:49

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roger leir

03:22

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening or good morning as the case may be across all these many prolific time zones stretching from the Hawaiian and the East and Islands outwest eastward to the Caribbean, the U.S. Virgin Islands, south into South America, north to the Pole, and worldwide on the internet.
		This is Coast Coast AF.
		And boy, are you in for a roller coaster ride this night?
		I've been shuffling and moving as quick as I can.
		I have breaking news for you in several categories.
		Linda Moltenhow is about to do a You Heard It First Here interview with Dr. Mark Parlato, who has done the amazing photographic work that now is resulting in people saying, now, wait a minute, maybe it is a face after all.
		And then I have an interview with a young man who I am not going to name right now that is so sensitive that I'm not even going to promote it right now for fear of something happening between now and when it goes on the air.
		So that's coming up.
		And then following all that, Dr. Fred Allen Wolf, a theoretical physicist who is an absolutely fascinating man.
		So obviously it's going to be a very packed night, and we're going to do the best we can.
		All of that coming up beginning in a few moments.
		Are you 5-5?
		David Hall's North American Trading, 1-800-359-4255.
		Tell them our bell said, call and ask about the sale on gold.
		Sale on gold indeed.
		All right.
		She is a science reporter.
		She has won many awards for her documentaries, environmental documentaries.
		She has done reporting for us now for years.
		She was once a Miss America contestant from Idaho.
		Throw that in.
		I say this, and she doesn't like me to say it, but I think she is probably the expert in this country on crop circles and animal mutilations.
		A chief investigator, how about that?
		Here she is from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and she's got an interview with Dr. Mark Carlotto.
		Here's Linda Moulton Howe.
		Linda?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Art.
unidentified		Hi.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Thanks a lot for that intro.
		Well, first up tonight, I would like to clarify a confusion that some coast-to-coast listeners had a couple of weeks ago when you and I were talking about my new book, and I quoted government policy about extraterrestrial biological entities from the 1954 War Department training manual.
		I was reading directly from the pages in my new book, Glimpses of Other Realities, Volume 2, High Strangeness, in which the documents are reprinted.
		And a lot of our listeners faxed me that they wanted to see this training manual as if it were a separate piece of something.
		So to all of you listening, you can find exactly what I was quoting from and all the reproduced pages of that 1954 War Department training manual about extraterrestrial biological entity retrievals in Glimpses of Other Realities, High Strangeness, that's now out in bookstores, hopefully throughout the country.
		And also, I have had several faxes in phone calls from ex-military and intelligence sources.
		They say that their own experiences relate to the military voices section of my book.
		One said, some Washington insiders are upset that certain documents and information are in my book, which were, quote, not to see the light of day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure that's true.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and I'm using his quote, not to see the light of day.
		And the implication art is that the content is true.
		So I want to thank all of you who have had the courage to communicate and hope more of you will reach me.
		And because I'm going to do this extensive story on Mars and there is a lot more to come concerning Mars, I'd like to give out my fax number now at area code 215-491-9842.
		That's 215-491-9842 to fax me.
		And for those of you who prefer to write, my mailing address is Linda Moulton Howe, Post Office Box 300, Jameson, Pennsylvania.
		That's J-A-M-I-S-O-N-P-A 18929.
		Again, that's P-O Box 300, Jamison, PA, 18929.
		And Art, I really want to thank you for giving a forum for these discussions on coast to coast in Dreamland.
		Sometimes I don't think we say that enough.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you bet.
		Thank you, Lyna.
		You know how I work.
		It's all on the fly.
		Tonight is a very good example.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and what listeners will find surprising is that I'm now going to do a report about Mars and that what will follow will be extremely relevant.
		And all of this has happened just this evening.
		Now, geologist Michael Malin told me in February he would try to photograph the Sidonia face after arrow breaking of NASA's Mars Global Surveyor stopped in April.
		And he got one.
		But when it was released, April 5th, the face looked so erased that the mainstream media announced the controversy about artificial structures on Mars was over.
		But the case is not closed for Dr. Mark Carlato, a computer image processing expert who does contract work for DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency in Washington, D.C. Dr. Carlato is also author of a book entitled The Martian Enigmas,
		which clearly details his processing techniques that he's been doing for the 10 Years since I first met him in 1988 and explains why he has hypothesized that the unusual features in Sidonia have a high probability of not being natural.
		The past two weeks, Mark Carlato has been trying to make sense of this new face photograph.
		First, I ask him questions that you have asked, Art, about why this new picture resolution was only 1,024 pixels per line instead of 2,048 used in earlier Mars images.
		Now, Dr. Carlotta.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, here it comes.
unidentified		Okay, like your home computer, the Global Surveyor has just so much memory.
		And what they wanted to do was take a long strip so that they didn't miss the face.
		And so in order to take this long strip, they had to give up something because they just had so much memory.
		And what they gave up was the number of picture elements or pixels per line.
		They went from 2048 to half that to 1024.
		It still covers the same amount of terrain, the same number of kilometers on the ground, but the resolution wasn't as high.
		It was only half of what the camera could have done.
		But it was still good enough.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		From your point of view, it's still good enough.
unidentified		Absolutely.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So you don't have any real argument with Dr. Malin's choice to save on memory and use 1,024 pixels per line instead of the 2,048?
unidentified		No argument.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And about the questions of Dr. Malin having said that the atmosphere conditions on April 5th would be clear and he expected that if you could shoot it, you would get a good clear image.
		And then when the image was put in photographs and on television, it seemed to be very low in the grayscale.
		How do you explain this?
unidentified		Okay, the conditions over the face were relatively clear.
		I think he mentioned that over the Viking lander sites, there was cloud cover and the surface was obscured.
		But even though there weren't any clouds over the face, there was haze and the background also had brightness variations caused, I think, although it hasn't been confirmed, but I think by frost.
		And so this creates a situation where you have a lot of artifacts in the image, things that are making it difficult to interpret the image.
		And this is why I believe they processed the picture the way they did, which washed out a lot of the detail, at least in the version they released to the media.
		But the raw image had a low number of gray levels, mainly because of the haze and the fact that pictures taken in the wintertime when the sun angle isn't very high.
		And so it wasn't an optimal condition for imaging.
		Compare that to some of the other pictures he's taken that have a much larger dynamic range.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Then I asked Dr. Carloto about the differences in sun and camera angles between the new and the old Viking face photos and how he has been superimposing for the last couple of weeks the 1998 angles on the old 3D Viking image to see how it would compare more like oranges to oranges instead of bananas to apples.
unidentified		Well, you know, when that first image came in on the surface, it was really a couple of days before I was really oriented.
		It was confusing because the camera angle was different, the lighting was way different, and of course there's a lot more resolution, a lot more detail there.
		But to help make the comparison between it and the Viking, the older Viking data, I took the old Viking data and because of the way the Viking imagery was collected, it was really easy at the time to do what's called shape from shading, which is to estimate what the terrain or the 3D structure of the face might be.
		And so using the 3D model derived from the Viking data, I reprojected the Viking data to look like the MGS image would look.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Meaning the Mars Global Surveyor.
unidentified		Right.
		So the Global Surveyor image was taken about 45 degrees off Nader.
		In other words, not looking straight down, but 45 degrees off straight down.
		And it was taken from the west side.
		The original Viking imagery was taken almost directly above.
		And so Viking.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And at that time, it was in the summer afternoon.
unidentified		Summer, late afternoon, so the sun was to the northwest, which is the upper left of the face.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So to be clear, in 22 years ago, it was a camera looking down on a summer afternoon on the face with a low sun angle.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And in 1998, April, it was early morning, winter, with a very low angle coming up from the chin.
unidentified		That's right.
		And the camera off 45 degrees off NATO.
		So there were a lot of differences.
		But using the Viking model derived from the Viking data, I was able then to take the Viking and reproject it to look like the MGS image.
		And so, in fact, this is up on my website.
		There's a sequence that fades from the late afternoon, the 35A72 image, to another image, the 70A13 image.
		These are both Viking images.
		And then fades from that to the MGS image.
		And all the features are pretty aligned, pretty close to being aligned with each other.
		And I do a fade, and you can see the correlation.
		Just about all the features that we had seen and we had predicted we would see in NGS are there.
		And it's a lot clearer now because before it was difficult to mentally map one perspective to another, but you can kind of see them all.
		And once you do this, this new image is really quite remarkable.
		The platform or the headdress, the base that the face is constructed on, is extremely symmetrical, even more strikingly symmetrical in the new imagery than in the Viking imagery.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think one of the major news magazines said it looked as if the bottom had been drawn with a straight edge.
unidentified		Yes, and it's also uh you can see the other side of it, and it's it seems to be the case for the other side, side away from the camera, and it's equally straight and highly symmetrical, not just laterally, but in both directions.
		What's also very striking is this beveled edge along the side is very even and people have remarked about if you look out of your look out of a plane flying over the southwest, you're likely to see all sorts of mesas that look like the face.
		I've never seen, and you can talk to geologists, we were talking the other night on the air with Jim Herjavic, who's a geologist that's done a lot of analysis on his imagery, and he said he's looked for a long time for a similar type of mesa, and you just don't find this kind of regularity.
		So you've got a very symmetrical platform or base with this very precise developed edge.
		The top of the head, the forehead has these crossed lines.
		They're very straight.
		We saw them in the Viking imagery, and they're there in the MGS imagery.
		They're very, very straight lines.
		And I haven't heard of a good geological explanation for them either.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		But why doesn't it look like a face now?
unidentified		Well, why doesn't it look like a face?
		If a face, it's highly eroded, clearly.
		The nose is not a smooth sculpted shape.
		There seems to have been some materials that slid down.
		There's some other signs of rock slides or degradation, erosion along the nose.
		The eye also is not there in the sense that we expected it.
		There is a geometry that's set up by the terrain above where the eye is.
		It's a cliff.
		And there is also some features in where the pupil, this very small black area that Di Pietro noticed a few years ago in the middle of the eye.
		And in the Viking images, they work out so that this dark area or this pupil, which appears to be a slight protuberance or protrusion, casts a deep shadow that looks black.
		In the MGS image, it shows up as a bright spot where it's supposed to be, but we don't seem to have an eye cavity, not in the same location.
		It seems like the eye cavity was a shadow cast by the brow of the face.
		So it doesn't seem to be, I mean, we didn't see exactly what we anticipated there, but we were seeing our structures that do give the impression at certain lighting angles that you've got an eye there.
		Whether it was designed to do that or whether it was an accident, we don't know.
		So if we can get another picture of the face from above in the next couple of months or later on in the mission with more illumination on the right side so we can see, then that'll tell us.
		I think that'll be the conclusive picture.
		Because if we do get indications of facial features on the right side, continuation of the mouth, symmetry of this nose ridge, and some indication of an eye, then I think we have to acknowledge that we have a facial form, you know, regardless of its present condition.
		It clearly is very eroded.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		When you and I talked in February, when I did the interview with Dr. Mike Nalen and Glenn Cunningham at JPL, you had done the fractal work, and you were saying that at least in terms of the fractal analysis that looks at things as either natural or not made by nature,
		that the face itself was coming out in such an anomaly that the odds were in the millions to one that it could be natural made.
		What would you comment now?
		And we can pick that up after the break.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you're learning, boy.
		Pick it at just the right time.
		That's the way to do it, Linda.
		All right.
		Now, it's interesting, isn't it, that he was sort of pining away, wishing for another image that would have been directly above.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bears a little bit on what I'm going to do when we're done tonight, huh?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And this story is going to ramify for a long time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
		All right, Linda Moulton Howe, hold on.
		We'll break here at the bottom of the hour.
		Listen very carefully, folks, to what's coming.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		Coast to Coast AM.
		THE END To talk with Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nineveh.
		From East of the Rockies, I have 1 800-8255033.
		1-800-625-5033.
		West of the Rockies, including Montana, White Man, Colorado, West New Mexico.
		1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		Now again, here's our gun.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Before this night is over, I think we're probably going to make some people angry.
		Little Motor Howe is my guest right now.
		She is in the middle of an interview with Dr. Mark Carlotto, and he'll be right back.
		5-1.
		That's 1-800-472-5151.
		Buy two.
		Get one free when you call now.
		Tell him Art Bell sent you.
		All right.
		Indeed, do that.
		Back now to Philadelphia and the cliffhanger with Dr. Mark Carlotto.
		Here is Linda Moulton.
		How Linda?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Art.
		Thanks.
		I had just asked Dr. Carlato, in light of fractal mathematical work that he has done on the face and had concluded this past year that there was a high probability that the face was an artificial structure.
		What would he comment on the current new April image, Dr. Carlotto?
unidentified		With the face, up to the scale of the Viking or the scale of the Viking imagery, it looked fractal.
unidentified		But now getting really close up, you're seeing detail that was not present in the original Viking data, and it's beginning to look more terrain-like because you're seeing the signs of erosion, which is making the terrain look more fractal, more irregular, more like a natural rock formation than a face.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And that's an important point.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		How far from the face in 1976 was the camera shot?
unidentified		Well, it was a different camera.
		The resolution was 50 meters per pixel.
		Now we're looking at something that's 2 to 4 meters per pixel.
		It's considerably better.
		So you're seeing detail that you didn't see in the Viking imagery.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's sort of like being in a museum when you're close to a painting and you see all the brush strokes and you really can't quite see clearly the face or the flowers or the water.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		But when you stand back across the room, it suddenly is a very clear picture.
unidentified		That's right.
		In the Viking imagery, we did see all these subtle features that we couldn't make out.
		And we're right at the resolution limit of the camera.
		And we can see these features in the MGS image.
		In fact, in this new image, we see what appears to be nostrils.
		And they correspond to a flat area on the nose.
		These thin lines I mentioned above the forehead we saw.
		There's a broad pattern of stripes across the face on one of the Viking images that's very pronounced.
		And you can see the indications of that in the MGS image.
		You can see where that's coming from.
		And the pupil, you know, all these things, you can see it in the MGS image, and it really makes sense now.
		You have that context of the higher resolution MGS image within the lower resolution Viking image.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Do you feel that the door is still open on this being artificial?
unidentified		Absolutely.
		I think the final judgment will rest on what's on the other side of the face and ultimately what we find in the city.
		In the next pass, NASA will be targeting presumably some objects in the city again.
		And I think the fortress, for example, that could be the smoking gun.
		Even something that is severely eroded, if it's a piece of architecture with straight sides and edges, should look more artificial, even given that it's degraded more so than a sculpted humanoid face.
		Because the face, again, if it's degraded, then you don't know whether or not that's just part of the style of the artist not to finish it to a certain level of detail.
		Just a coarse representation is good enough.
		But for architecture, you would expect to see more telltale signs of artificiality, the straight edges and repeated features, internal geometry and that sort of thing.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And in the 1976 Viking photograph, what is referred to as the fort definitely has a very clear 90-degree angle from that particular perspective.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And I think what I'm hearing you say is that if Dr. Malin could get a photograph in the current resolution on that fort image, that 90-degree angle might be seen more clearly about how it's structured.
unidentified		That's right.
		And even if it's severely degraded, there might be enough there.
		There might be enough of the architecture still there to come through and be pretty evident.
		So I think the test now for artificiality kind of moves away from the face and looks to some of these other objects.
		Because what happens, I think, is if we start getting more pictures of these other objects and they all start turning out to be like the face, they're all eroded and we're predicting like, say, the right side of the face is also present in terms of facial detail.
		If that's not there and the details we're looking for on the forehead aren't there and so on and so forth, then I think we have to abandon our hypothesis.
		But we're not there yet.
		And this new image has really done nothing to sway us, most of us, either way.
		We're a little bit more, or I should say a little less naive now as to what we expect to find.
		And we're realizing that these structures are, they do appear to be very old, that they are degraded, and so the signs or the evidence for artificiality are going to be very, very subtle.
		You know, I think this point is lost with the news media, by and large, because they're looking for, you know, it's got to be black and white, it's got to be obvious.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Like a Walt Disney carving.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Or like, you know, the monolith in 22001.
		You know, very often when you take a picture of these, you know, these ancient cities, like the lost city of Bubar in the Middle East, that was done by a shuttle radar back a few years ago, the indications that there was something was there was very subtle and only took ultimately was resolved by someone going there and digging in the sand.
		Unfortunately, we can't do that now, and we may not be able to do that for a long time.
		But there's a part of me that thinks and in fact has accepted the possibility that we're just not going to be able to verify or prove our hypothesis with MGS imagery or with remotely sensed imagery.
		But privately, I think that and this is the intuition that I have and that many others have, when you look at this imagery, that there is something there.
		And one day, hopefully, we'll know.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And the easiest way to reach Dr. Carlado's website to look at his own comparisons between 76 and April 98 is simply by doing a search under the Martian Enigmas.
		That is the way to get to his page.
		And geologist Dr. Michael Malin at Space Science Systems in San Diego will be trying for another photo, hopefully, of the Ford or the city area, next week around April 23rd.
		And that day, by the way, Art, I'm going to be in San Diego.
		I'm going to be at a Barnes Noble on Hazard Center Drive.
		And if I can get any more information about what's happening, I will call you that day from San Diego.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Linda, I don't want to go into it in any detail because I don't think that would be wise prior to the event.
		I received a three-page facts from a young man earlier tonight that is shocking.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		I think it's extraordinary, and I think that we are going to make a very important contribution tonight.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Assuming that the details are true, and I personally feel this is a voice that should be listened to, and if, Art, this is true, then it means that the United States government already has very clear pictures of not only the face, but of structures on Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you consider that well within the realm of possibility?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I think it is within the realm of possibility, but then it opens up this whole huge Pandora's box of how have we gotten these color photos and how have we gotten other details that certainly are not in the only two images from 1976 that have ever been released and the only one that we have right now of what is called the erased face.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The erased face.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you heard Dr. Mark Carlotto himself suggest that with the haze and with the angle at which it was taken, which was, I believe he said, at 45 degrees.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		It's about 43 to 45 degrees off meter.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And what that would be like, Art, is, you know, when you're a kid at Halloween and you take a flashlight or a candle and you put it under your chin?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		You know what that looks like.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Precisely.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is exactly what it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly what it is.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		And so what Dr. Carlotto has been trying to do is to take that same kind of severe angle back to the 763D image and see what it would look like if it had been taken under these very severe lighting conditions.
		And the fact is that they have found all of these matching areas, including nostrils in the nose, at least the shadow where the eye, those strange straight cross edges.
		And I think everybody has noticed that beveled edge that goes all the way around.
		It just doesn't compute with what we know of Arroyos and having some kind of a mesa.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me tell you this, Linda.
		I was at Guizert not all that long ago.
		And if somebody were to take a good quality 35 millimeter photograph of the rump area of the Sphinx in an area where there's been erosion and there's been a lot of erosion, we're only talking here about, depending on who you want to believe, a couple of thousand to 6,000 years, somewhere in that span.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		In Egypt.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In Egypt.
		If you were to take a photograph of just that close up, you know what you'd see?
		You'd see eroded, irregular rock.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Rubble.
unidentified		Yeah.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and I think that Dr. Carlado's point about some of those radar images over the Middle Eastern deserts where they did get the indication of some kind of artificial structure from radar, but they could not tell definitively that way, they had to send somebody there to do archaeology.
		And see, I think that part of the irony that you and I are sensing tonight is that we're talking about ancient archaeology and ancient structures on Mars, and we're talking about the fact that these people like Mark Carloto are trying to cope with degradation in a new photograph that possibly shows erosion of something that he feels was structured,
		and yet we're going to hear from somebody who says that they have seen clear color photographs that aren't eroded.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You had an opportunity to talk to the young man I'm about to interview within the last couple of hours, and your comment to me was you thought he was solid as a rock.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yes, because you can get a sense of when somebody has very little academic knowledge, but they know what they've seen and they know what they've heard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Precisely.
		All right, that'll be coming up shortly.
		I want to ask you about one other thing, since you are and have been for so many years an environmental reporter.
		There is a piece of breaking news from the New York Times that a 75-mile square mile, a piece of the Larson B.I. shelf, has broken off in the Antarctic.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and I think that's an extraordinary piece of news.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		It was only about a year ago that you and I were on coast for about five hours, and I was talking about global warming, and I was talking about all of the scientific data from tree rings and Arctic conditions and all of the various data points that have been saying that the temperature is increasing incrementally each year, and that one of the targets to be watched was the Larsen Ice Shelf.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The additional statement here is the British Antarctic Survey has predicted the entire Larsen ice shelf, which covers more than 4,000 square miles, is nearing its limit of stability.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And when it starts totally falling apart, they know that that's going to cause some kind of sea rise.
		It's going to means melting and dislodging.
		What exactly the consequences are going to be on the sea level, I don't know.
		But this has been one of the markers.
		This has been one of the areas that has been predicted as if global warming kept up the trend, that the Larsen ice shelf would be one of these places that would begin to deteriorate exactly as it's doing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then I guess we better keep our eye on the Ross ice shelf.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but all of it together.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would not be good.
		All right, Linda.
		As always, I want to thank you for a very succinct report, and I think that it sets up what I'm about to do very well indeed.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		It certainly does, Art.
		And I will look forward to talking with you on Sunday on Dreamland to catch up further.
		And I will be in Santa Fe.
		I've been asked by Cornell University to participate as a science reporter in a workshop in Santa Fe in which the whole discussion will be with physicists and scientists from all over the country on the study of the ionosphere.
		And I will be doing a very interesting report with another scientist on this subject and following up much more on HAARP, Arecibo, and many other areas later.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, wonderful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Linda, thank you so much.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yes, thank you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And good night.
		We will speak with Linda on Sunday, of course, on Dreamland.
		If you get that, if you don't, call your local radio station and ask them for it.
		I'm going to take care of a little inventory right now because of what I've got coming here at the top of the hour.
		And we have rearranged a schedule with the kind permission of the guest who was scheduled at this hour, Dr. Fred Allen Wolfe.
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		Now, I want you to hear something.
		This is going to be a new piece of bumper music that I found that I'm absolutely in love with, and I'm only going to be able to give you a little piece of it right now.
		But check this out.
		See what you think.
		New bumper music.
unidentified		New bumper music.
unidentified		you From the Kingdom of Nye, Coast to Coast A.M., continue with Art Bell.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Fred Allen Wolfe, Ph.D., is a consulting theoretical physicist, writer, and lecturer who earned his Ph.D. in theoretical physics at UCLA in 1963.
		His work in quantum physics and consciousness is well known through his popular and scientific writings.
		He is the author of eight approximately one comic, Taking the Quantum Leap, Space-Time and Beyond, Parallel Universes, The Body Quantum, Star Wave, The Eagle's Quest, The Dreaming Universe, and the Spiritual Universe.
		Dr. Wolf's fascination with the world of physics began one afternoon as a child at a local matinee when a newsreel revealed the awesome power and might of the world's first atomic explosion.
		This fascination continued, leading the good doctor to study mathematics and physics.
		In 1963, he received his Ph.D. in theoretical physics from UCLA, began researching the field of high atmospheric particle behavior following a nuclear explosion.
		The good doctor has come a long way since then, now investigating other areas, including new physics and even a quantum leap toward the metaphysical.
		Here is Dr. Fred Allen Wolfe.
		Doctor, welcome to the program.
unidentified		Hi, Ark.
unidentified		Nice to be on your show.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		I'm so sorry that I had to push your appearance a little bit.
		We had a remarkable interview we had to get done this night, and I expect this to be fully remarkable.
		You are a remarkable man, and everybody was sending me faxes and emails saying you've got to get Dr. Wolf on.
unidentified		Well, thanks, everybody, who contacted you.
unidentified		I truly appreciate it.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		That was really it for you, seeing a nuclear detonation begin at all, huh?
unidentified		Well, yes, it was.
		It's hard to describe the feeling that one has.
		I think Oppenheimer probably caught it when he said, I've become death, or I've become aware of the awesome power of the universe itself when he saw the bomb go off.
		He recognized he was looking at the dance of Shiva, the dance of life and death itself.
		And I think that the impression I had when I first saw it was just, I was awestruck.
		It literally blew my mind.
		I was really amazed at what I saw.
		It didn't seem possible that something like that could occur.
		And I had dreams about it for many, many years afterwards that really were both disturbing and, I guess, enlightening.
		I mean, I saw a nuclear hole across.
		Maybe I was looking into the future.
		I don't know.
		Maybe you were.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, as you look at it now, it's asking you more for a social comment than anything else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But do you think what you saw will ultimately be the dance of life or death?
unidentified		You mean a nuclear burst knocking us all off at some point?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		No, I don't think so.
		I think that we have a long history ahead of us.
		If I look at the nature of the universe as a whole, and I look at it from two points of view, both from my deepest scientific understanding, which includes what theoretical physics can bring to that understanding, to the table of understanding, and my mystical and spiritual traditions that I've studied with almost as much fervor as I've studied theoretical physics.
		I come to the conclusion that the universe is a very young child.
		It's only, at best, 15 billion years old and more likely around 10.
		It's a growing child.
		It's expanding.
		It's moving to an ever-increased size.
		In fact, it seems to be expanding even faster than we originally thought.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		You embrace the Big Bang Theory.
unidentified		Well, it seems to be a reasonable theory.
		Now, let me say something about embracing theories and not embracing theories, because a lot of people get really caught up in this whole game that we play as scientists.
		A theory is a picture.
		It's a picture which has been built consistently.
		It's kind of like, as Richard Freyman would put it, building a pyramid from the top down.
		When you first get a little bit of evidence, you build the first little triangular or whatever that piece is called, I forget what they call those things, that little pyramidal top.
		And then you have to understand how that got created.
		You have to build a base which is bigger and even supportive of that.
		So when you add a new idea to a theory, you're actually adding something at the bottom which has to support everything that's gone before.
		And when you have a theory as powerful as our present theories are about the nature of the universe, there is a consistent story that is put together.
		I can't say to you it's a perfectly, absolutely 100% consistent story.
		There's always areas that are gray that we don't really fully understand.
		But nevertheless, the picture we have is a reasonably good one.
		I call it the myth of science.
		We have a fairly good myth which tells us there's a big bang.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		A myth in science?
unidentified		A myth.
		Science is really a, I mean, science is a myth based upon the myth that we can understand the world mathematically, and we see certain correspondences which more or less fit that.
		So we are mythological.
		We're storytellers, and scientists are just the mathematical end of storytelling.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, how do we get from something that is theoretically smaller than a quark where there is nothing else?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There is nothing else moving, there's no reference, there's no other matter, and there is this sudden explosion resulting in the amount of matter that we now are able to see in look back time to, oh, I don't know, 10, 13 billion years, whatever it is we can look back now.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		It just doesn't seem reasonable to me.
unidentified		No, it isn't reasonable.
		The universe itself is not fully reasonable.
		It's not fully logical.
		There are many areas which we simply can't, we don't have the language or the tools to really find out.
		So to say the universe began as a point smaller than a quark down to a size which is so small as to be well beyond any practicality at all is a model.
		It's a story.
		And I can't think of a better one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, but what part of theoretical physics, even theoretical, explains that?
unidentified		Well, it comes from basically from ideas which go back to first observations that were made by Hubble, Edwin Hubble, who was, I think he was in California, Caltech.
		I don't have my data here in front of me, who made some observations which indicated that the things were moving apart from each other.
		The universe was expanding.
		For the listener at home, I ask you to imagine a balloon that is blowing up.
		And I ask you to imagine yourself as living on the surface of that balloon and looking around your world as if it only existed on the surface of that balloon.
		And look at your nearest neighbors.
		And you'll see that they're slightly moving away from you.
		Look at your neighbors that are even further away from you than your nearest ones.
		And you see they're moving away from you even faster as the balloon is expanding.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the red shift would verify that.
unidentified		And the light coming from the distant galaxies is shifted into the red, which tells us that there is movement.
		We can calculate from that how fast things are moving away.
		So that was the first indication that if things are moving away from each other and everything is moving away from everything else, then it must be moving in a higher dimension, which has various names depending on what physicists you talk about or talk to.
		And that it must be expanding from some central place, of which every point is that place.
		Just like a balloon starts off as a dot and blows up, and every point on the surface of the balloon is the center of that universe, so is every point in the universe the center of it.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		All right, Doctor, on that note, hold on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're at the top of the hour.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		You get a good little rest here, and then we'll really kick this off.
		My guest is Dr. Fred Allen Wolf.
		He is a theoretical physicist, and he'll be back, as will I, with more.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
		Keep it right where you've got it.
unidentified		Don't leave me this way.
		I can't survive.
		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For those joining us this hour, Dr. Wolf is a consulting theoretical physicist, writer, and lecturer who earned his Ph.D. in theoretical physics at UCLA in 1963.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He is an eight-time published author, and I think he's working on a new book right now.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Is that correct, Doctor?
unidentified		Well, yes, but I keep my new books under wrap until I pretty well have them.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Why?
unidentified		It's like top secret until I get it to a certain point, and then I'm going to talk about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Well, your new book, let's put it this way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We could probably be talking about it by midsummer.
unidentified		I would say so.
unidentified		I would say more than likely by midsummer, which, by the by, will be the time that my paperback version of the Spiritual Well,
art bell ▲ ● ▼		now that's an interesting website name, anyway, StarDrive?
unidentified		StarDrive, yes.
		We are looking at a number of outrageous ideas in science, including the possibility of actually doing what Star Trek does.
		Is it possible to warp space in such a way that we can go faster than light?
		So we're looking at, plus we're looking at theories of consciousness and spirituality and a lot of things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How does a theoretical physicist, a real hands-on mathematical kind of person, get to the spiritual side of things?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		How do you make that transition?
unidentified		Well, it came about not quickly.
		It came about rather slowly, if I may say so.
		And it came about synchronistically or in some ways paradoxically.
		I was suddenly brought into this world through a number of different events.
		One time a student came into my class where I was teaching and said to me, he knew me in a past life.
		And I was an ancient Greek teacher or something like that.
		And I thought, hmm, you know, at first I thought, well, this guy's, you know, nuts.
		I mean, it's typically the way scientists look at anything that doesn't fit into their daily way, because anybody who doesn't fit must be nuts.
		But I just became more curious about, well, maybe his worldview isn't so strange.
		Let me look into it.
		And then I spent time with a, when I was on sabbatical leave teaching at the University of Paris for a year, I met a master of ancient biblical texts written in the original Aramaic and Hebrew.
		And when he told me about the worldview of these ancient peoples, it struck me that it was very similar to my understanding of the worldview of the way quantum physics and Einsteinian relativity views the way the universe was actually made.
		So I began to look more deeply into what these ancient mystics were saying, and I began to realize there's some deeper truth that's being revealed to us that is deeper than I could get just through physics.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there a place where quantum physics and the metaphysical meet somewhere out there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We haven't arrived yet, but is it somewhere out there, do you think?
unidentified		It really, I believe, I'm convinced of it, and proving it is another thing, but I'm convinced of it that it meets in the study of what we call consciousness.
		How is it that we are aware of a world that is out there, and how is it that our models of the world out there differ from what's really happening in our true experience?
		I think it's the point where we're looking at the difference between what we think is going on and what we are experiencing is going on.
		That's the place where the spiritual bridge or the bridge between spirit and matter, or bridge between mind and matter, can be built.
		I think that's where we have to look.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Did you see the movie Contact?
unidentified		Yes, I did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you consider it probable or improbable?
unidentified		It kind of depends.
		It's improbable from the point of view that I don't think it's going to be massive hardware that's going to do it.
		I think the type of travel or the type of contact that's being looked for in that kind of movie is probably going to take place in the subjective realm, the realm of our being.
		I mean, if you think about it at all, every person listening at this moment is having a subjective experience.
		And if you think about that at all, you realize that there is no such thing as an experience that isn't a subjective experience.
		That's right.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
unidentified		Everything ultimately gets reduced down to my gaining knowledge or learning something about something.
		So obviously, knowledge and information must be a really deeply embedded secret to finding out how the universe works.
		If we can understand what that knowledge is and decipher it, maybe we'll have a better notion of it.
		Heinz Pagels, a brilliant physicist and writer, wrote a book called The Cosmic Code, in which he thought that the universe is a great big code and that we physicists are attempting to decipher what that code is.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Well, many, many.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, many physicists like yourself, theoretical physicists, believe that travel faster than light travel or apparent faster than light travel, in effect bending space and leaping across might be possible, but they say it would take an enormous amount of power, more power than we can possibly muster right now.
unidentified		As far as we understand it, that's true.
		Now, that is to bend space, I mean, the amount of space and time bending that's going on between the top of your head and the soles of your feet is extremely tiny.
		But that small amount of time distortion, which is very difficult to measure, I mean, it's a very small fraction, is nevertheless just about the right amount to give us the gravitational field that we presently exist in.
		So in order to get a big amount of time bending, I mean, like a second or two, you're going to have to have a huge gravitating mass.
		And that's just well beyond our speculation.
		In my book, Parallel Universes, I did offer a story about how there might be what I call nuclear cowboys in the future that are intergalactic, that somehow can lasso with some kind of nuclear Lariat, whatever those might be, and tie together in a wagon train style approximately 100 neutron stars, each one so many thousands of miles, I mean so many hundreds of miles across.
		I think 40 miles is about all we need, 40 miles across, and stick them all together and get them all rotating in unison at approximately two-thirds the speed of light.
		And that gigantic rotating cylinder, which would be hugely dense, will warp space and time in its immediate vicinity so badly that there will be time travel zones that one could enter, provided one enters in sneakily along the axis of the rotating cylinder, that is in the outside space around the rotating cylinder, and not coming in directly from perpendicular to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So sort of a cosmic version of what Jody Foster went through.
unidentified		Yes, yes, but this was this this would be, you know, like a thousand let's see, a thousand, no, a hundred, a hundred, a hundred neutron stars, which are about 40 miles across.
		And each one weighs as much as our star does, our sun does.
		So you can see there, these would be very massive objects and would need that in order to get some space distortion approximately all around 500 miles off from the surface of them.
		Of course, it would diminish as you move further and further away.
		To me, that's not the way to go.
		To me, the way I would understand it is that we have to look at consciousness itself and see, is there anything in the way the mind or the way people think or the way consciousness works which is suggestive of a time machine effect?
		If there is, if there's something that we can see there or if there's some experiments that we can do in the laboratory which demonstrate something like a time machine effect, I think those are the natural places to look.
		And quantum mechanics and some elements of neurophysiology tell us there is a time machine effect, and it's real, and it's measurable, and it's been demonstrated.
		And so now it's a matter of trying to see if we can move that, that frontier, into real-time travel.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Now, when you say real-time travel, if a person were able to travel in time, would they explain, if you can, the nature of what you think they would see going, would you imagine both directions to be possible?
unidentified		Well, time travel to the past is really the most important kind of travel one would do.
		Time travel to the future, in a way, we're all time traveling to the future.
		So I guess jumping to a totally new world where nothing around you is familiar might be considered to be a fancy, lucid dream.
		That's certainly a possibility.
		But going back to the past where you have some recognition of things through history books and whatnot might be, I think, I would call that real-time travel.
		I mean, in a sense, that would be a demonstrable, amazing feat to take place.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Would you arrive in the physical?
unidentified		Let me explain how it would work.
		There's only one way that it would be consistent that it would work, and that has to be that there must be existing simultaneous to our own universe a number of what we call parallel universes, an infinity of them.
		Yes.
		Something so vast that our mind boggles at the thought.
		But who's to say that our mind shouldn't boggle at the universe anyway?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Could we think of these as endless forks in the road?
unidentified		Think of each universe as a card in a deck.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Card in a deck, all right?
unidentified		And time travel consists of punching a hole in one of the cards and moving into the card above it or the card below it and consistently moving backwards through time, leaving a hole in each universe until you get to one which is parallel to the one you're in.
		And then you turn around and come back to the universe you left.
		And you have to come back in such a way that the loop that you make, the time loop, is consistent with the universe you left from.
		These would be the boundary conditions which the quantum mechanics would demand.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		You're beginning to lose me a little bit.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Consistent, the one you left.
unidentified		You can't come back.
		If you left the universe, you can't come back in such a way that the universe you left and the universe you come back to have what's called a logical inconsistency.
		This would be the prime imperative.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		In other words, a paradox, which everybody worries about.
unidentified		It would not be possible.
		You can't come back to a universe that's paradoxical.
		Those things would be quantum mechanically impossible.
		Or in other words, they would have probability of zero.
		So you'd have to come back in such a way that the universe you come back to is probable.
		It doesn't have to have high probability, but it has to be at least probable.
		And I wrote a story about this in my book, Parallel Universes, which takes people to go off into space and come back, and what happens to one of them when he decides to kill his grandfather.
		The old story.
		If I kill my grandfather, how could I be born here?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		No, you would go to a different universe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And again, my question, would you arrive in the physical, would you be able to affect things while you were in that universe?
unidentified		I mean, if you're going to time travel the way I'm saying.
		Now, I mean, if you're going to time travel using some kind of rotating device like this rotating cylinder.
		However, I just wrote this as a lesson using general relativity, but I think in quantum mechanics, using parallel worlds, there might be another way we could time travel, which is probably less painful.
		And that involves the mind.
		And the reason I bring this up has to do with basically the notion that there are certain states of the dreaming brain which are reminiscent of the wake state.
		In other words, when a person is dreaming or they're awake, when you look at their brains, you can't tell the difference.
		The brain seems to be functioning as if a dreaming person's brain is functioning as if they were fully awake, which is very strange considering that they're asleep.
		So what's going on here?
		Well, they're processing.
		They're doing a lot of data stuff.
		They're looking at worlds.
		They're walking around.
		They're doing something.
		They're dreaming.
		Their eyes are moving.
		This is called REM or rapid eye movement.
		So if you look at all this and you wonder what is going on here, and you begin to investigate it, you find out that not only are they just dreaming, but it turns out that careful research shows that there are different stages of dreaming.
		Not only does it show that, it shows that it's possible to be awake at different levels of awareness.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, lucid dreams, lucid dreams.
unidentified		These are called lucid dreams, right?
		You probably have talked with a number of lucid dream researchers on your show by now.
		I have.
		And if one takes into consideration the experience of a lucid dream, I lucid dream.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you do?
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
		So having had these experiences, I kind of have the experience of what I'm talking about here.
		You wake up in a world, and it's a world which looks very much like the world you left, except it ain't.
		And the world, you can walk around in it, you can do things, you can try to gather data.
		And the one annoying and pleasant fact in all of this is that you know you're dreaming it.
		At first you may not.
		At first you may think this is real.
		But after a while, you get savvy to it and you realize, wait a minute, I'm dreaming this.
		And then you have to be very, in my work, in lucid dreaming, you have to be very careful.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		But it is subjective, though.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Well, who's to say it's subjective?
unidentified		Who's to say?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Well, me.
unidentified		Suppose you woke up in that world and you thought you were dreaming it, and then it just lasted longer and longer and longer and longer and longer.
unidentified		That's where you think, well, maybe this is the real world.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So we have moved now from saying with the Hollywood analogies, we've moved from contact to somewhere in time.
unidentified		In a way, that's the idea, like somewhere in time.
		Create an environment which is conducive to convincing you that you're there, and maybe you can wake up in a parallel reality.
		Although I think that's a bit far-fetched in the movie, but nevertheless, it was a wonderful movie.
		I loved it.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		This is the end of side one.
unidentified		This is the end of side one.
		And now, back to the best of Art Bell.
		The point I'm trying to make is that if we could control dreams more carefully, maybe it's possible that we would find there might be time travel opportunities.
		This is purely, by the way, speculation on my part.
		I'm not putting this in the realm of physical fact.
		There are some indications, however, though, now that I've said that, there are some indications that the way the brain works, when it's sensing data, that is being able to perceive, make perceptual judgments about when and where things are occurring, that we project.
		We have a projection mechanism in our brains that starts probably with the thalamus, and it seems to be able to project experience so that it appears, I'll put the quotes around the word it appears, to be happening out there, and it appears, again, quotes around the words, it appears, words it appears, backwards in time.
		So we have sensory experiences which we can't become fully aware of for a period of time, but we, from that time that our brains finally tell us that we are aware of something, there is a projection mechanism which sends that information backwards through time and gives us an experience of the out there world at more or less the time in which we originally sensed it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it possible that nationwide, worldwide, some of those people that sit now in mental hospitals have successfully made either a temporary or permanent transition that we don't understand?
unidentified		Well, it's clear that if you drug a brain enough, it is going to lose interest, let's put it mildly, lose interest in this reality.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, doctor, again, we're at the bottom of the hour, so hold on.
		We'll be right back to you.
		Oh, this is fascinating stuff.
		As you know, right down my alley.
		Good morning, everybody.
		I'm Marfell.
		is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		You know, I need your love.
		You got that hold on me.
		Long as I got your love, you know that I'll never be.
		When I wanted you to shave my life, I don't doubt it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right, back now to my guest, Dr. Wolf.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Wolf, even in the world of theoretical physics, you must be something of a heretic.
unidentified		Well, I used to be, but I think that nowadays, I don't think people think that.
		Back in the early 70s, when I was first getting into this work, I was starting to write and get involved with some of these very speculative ideas about time travel.
		And even before Star Trek was on the air, I was thinking about this stuff.
		And my friends and I produced a book called Space-Time and Beyond, which some of the older listeners out there might still remember.
		If you have a copy of it, guard it with your life because it's out of print and it'll be very valuable.
		I can vouchsafe for that.
		That was the first book on science, quantum physics, general relativity, and mysticism, I think, ever done.
		It launched the whole, you might say, the whole New Age movement about science and consciousness and physics and consciousness.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then in a way, you're the father?
unidentified		In a way.
		In a way.
		My friends and I, Jack Sarfati and Bob Tobin, were the first to put this together.
		And that book, we made a bunch of predictions.
		And all these predictions we made then were, whoa, we thought, wow, man, these are so far out.
		You know, we're sitting in Paris and studying with this Kabbalist master and we're having a grand old time and enjoying the Parisian life and the cafes and all the ambiance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I love Paris.
unidentified		It's a wonderful town.
		And here we are coming up with these outrageous ideas.
		It's 26, 30 years later.
		This was 1974, 73, 74.
		What is it now?
		23 years later, 24 years, 25 years later.
		And everything we wrote is now ho-ha, ha-ha.
		It's all part of the American Physical Society Standards Fair.
		I mean, they're not talking about teleporting one spin of an atom to another.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They've done it.
unidentified		They're doing all this stuff.
		We were predicting all this stuff 25 years ago.
		So now, you know, I figured, well, I guess I'll have to bear with the fact that I'm visionary.
		I can't help it.
		I just think of ideas that are outrageous now, but turn out in 25 years to be what people are working on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you were to sit down and try to make the same projections based on current trends, what kind of things would you be talking about?
unidentified		Well, we are going to time travel.
		That's one thing I definitely want to do, and we are going to do it.
		So it's going to be, it'll be very unusual.
		We find out that time travel, or let's say we're going to understand time in a new way.
		Time is a big mystery for science.
		We don't really know how to deal with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A very wise person recently asked, if time travel is going to be possible, then where are the time travelers?
unidentified		Well, that's a good point.
unidentified		As I said, in order to really get into this, it's going to bring up a number of paradoxes like, you know, where and when and other possible realities or universes or worlds, and how do we link them together?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One answer that was given was, well, they'll be here when it's invented.
unidentified		Right.
		Well, you see, people think that somehow you need some great big massive machine to do it.
		What I'm saying is I don't think so.
		I think the first visits are going to be more or less on a mental plane, but we'll bring back data, which will be indicative of the fact that we've made the journey.
		There was a wonderful movie that had this idea in it that played, oh, many years ago.
		Maybe some of you might remember.
		It was called La Jette.
		It was made by an American living in Paris called Chris Marker.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I haven't seen it.
unidentified		Well, if you saw the 12 monkeys, that was that was a blown-up two-hour version of a 20-minute movie, which is a masterpiece.
unidentified		I highly recommend anybody to find the videotape of La Gette and watch it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The premise, I take it, was time travel.
unidentified		And the premise is time travel through the mind.
		And the premise has to do with what would make a person do it.
		Marker, I mean, Marker had a vision that I think was consistent, logical, and it made perfect sense.
		And it was a wonderful, romantic, moving story.
		I mean, what more can he have for a 20-minute movie?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		No, that's right.
		Oh, I have wished for time travel for so long.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And still, I can't help but think that most, even theoretical physicists, would begin rebelling at the metaphysical point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, there's scientists and they would say, keep me away from that stuff.
unidentified		Well, it's, for some reason, I don't know why.
		I'm not really even sure why scientists take this attitude.
		I understand the need in doing one's research to be critical, to be skeptical about one's claims, and to be careful.
		That's what science is all about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you begin applying things like repeatability.
unidentified		Yeah, I mean, there are definite things which have to be done in order to If I'm going to tell you to do something, I better darn well know what I'm talking about, right?
		I mean, I better have tested it.
		I better make sure.
		I mean, if you're going to buy a product or something, or you're going to go drive a car, you want to make sure that somebody's really done their homework.
		I prefer it.
		So I certainly prefer that scientists be honest and tell the truth and do the right thing and don't be far out when it comes to telling people to do things that might be dangerous or might be wrong.
		But when it comes to speculating about the way the universe works and ideas and concepts, just the opposite has to be true.
		What you want to do is you want to encourage people to go far out, to really think, to use their minds, to explore, to come up with outrageous ideas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But this is generally not the area of scientists.
		As a matter of fact, there's a report that was done at the government's behest called the Brookings Report.
		I bet you know about it.
		It suggests that if extraterrestrial contact was made, the group that would have the most difficulty with it would be scientists.
		You betcha.
unidentified		Sure.
		Yes.
		I mean, if you, you see, there's something going on here that's underneath it all, which has to do with why science?
		Why mathematics?
		Why do we invent these concepts?
		Where do they come from?
		For what purpose do they serve?
		And the answer is survival.
		We have figured out a way to survive, and that way is to understand the environment in which we exist.
		And the more we understand that, the more we can make sense of it, the better we are able to survive.
		But the basis upon which that survival first began was really a kind of a brutal one.
		If we believe anything having to do with the history of early hominids, early human beings, we were basically killers and brutes.
		So we came from a very brutish kind of background.
		So we have a natural built-in mistrust of anything new.
		I mean, these are very primitive, part of the primitive brain.
		So our skeptism arises from really that basic, very primitive brain, which says, you know, don't bug me with anything new.
		I'm getting along fine, surviving just as it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, how about this angle of attack?
		That first nuclear detonation you saw, there are mathematics that can be applied to how that happened.
		Squarely applied to how that happened.
unidentified		And to some extent, I mean, even that's a difficult thing to model, exactly.
		In fact, when the first one went off, they weren't sure.
		Some of them thought they were going to ignite the whole atmosphere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
		That's true.
		where I was going was: are theoretical physicists like yourself beginning to put together mathematical models that would begin to lead us down some of the avenues you're talking about today?
unidentified		Yeah, absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
unidentified		Oh, sure.
		Sure.
		We're doing it every day.
		If you go online and you want to, if you go to my star drive.org website, you'll find there's a whole flock of work that's being mentioned there on mathematical models and scientific physics models for a lot of very outrageous ideas right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that faster-than-light travel would or could be possible?
		And if so, obviously with the name of your website, I would imagine that you've thought of these things.
		How would it be done?
		How could it be done?
unidentified		Well, as I said, it's a tricky business.
		One way would be to use some form of what's called exotic matter.
		This would have to be matter that would have a pretty high density, but in a very small region of space, and that that could cause some kind of distortion.
		It would probably have to rotate at a very high speed.
		There's some feeling that somehow you could bend space and fold it, just like the old science fiction story said.
		And there's some serious work on papers that have been published on that basis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We have never encountered exotic matter.
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is theoretical.
unidentified		Well, it's theoretical, except we have this real problem with the universe right now.
unidentified		It's not behaving itself very well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No?
unidentified		It seems to be, it's gone fishing.
		It's gone missing.
		Like, 90% of all the mass seems to be not there.
		Where the hell is it all gone?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I've been hearing about that.
unidentified		What?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've been hearing about that.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Yeah.
		I mean, it's a real problem.
		I mean, it doesn't.
		Something is clearly not correct.
		And we don't know quite what it is.
		And there are imaginative ideas about what might be correct, but I don't think anybody really knows.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Einstein said it can't be done, didn't he?
unidentified		What?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Faster than light travel.
unidentified		Well, what Einstein said, and it's very important to recognize what he said, is that you can't go from slower than light to faster than light without going through the light barrier.
		But suppose you can leak through the light barrier in some way.
		You can't get over it because it'd take an infinite amount of energy to do so.
		But what if you could leak through it?
		Quantum mechanics allows this funny kind of tunneling where you can leak through across energy barriers.
		So is it possible to leak across the speed of light barrier?
		I don't know.
		I mean, these are far-fetched ideas.
		There are some recent papers in the Scientific American by a physicist, a brilliant new breed of physicists that don't necessarily believe the old cadres that tell them you can't do that, in which they are demonstrating effects from even light going faster than light.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait a minute.
unidentified		I know this is paradoxical.
		Speed of light is known to be a certain number.
		And when it travels in a medium, it slows down.
		It has to slow down.
		So the speed of light in a vacuum is a certain number.
		It's a large number.
		When it's in a medium like glass or anything that has what's called an index of refraction, it slows down.
		And if you can send light so that it can go through, seemingly go through glass in such a way that it goes faster than the wood and glass, it's beating itself, so to speak.
		So there's some evidence that light can do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What would happen to light as it would approach a black hole?
unidentified		Well there are a couple of ideas here.
		The classic idea is that the black hole would, like a voracious shark, eat it.
		Just suck that light up, and that light would be vanished forever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Vanish, but in the process of vanishing, wouldn't it exceed conceivably?
unidentified		No.
		No, not according to relativity.
		But this depends on who's counting.
		I mean, there are different reference frames in which one makes these observations.
		So it gets very tricky, and I'm not sure if I could...
		I would say that what we believe, a lot of what we believe is clearly not right, including scientists like myself, what we believe is currently not right.
		We just don't have a better picture, but we smell a rat somewhere.
		We sense there's something clearly not right in what we believe, the way the world's constructed.
		We don't quite know what to use in place of what we believe, so we more or less stay with what we believe, and then we go and do something.
		Somebody comes up with an experiment that suddenly shows us something we didn't expect, or somebody comes up with a new idea based on what we think we understand and shows us that we didn't really understand that.
		And when that happens, we realize that we have to change our belief structure.
		This is called, in the language, a paradigm shift.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, precisely.
		That one thing that scientists don't take to too easily.
		In fact, they resist it.
		Careers fall or at the very least scientists think they will fall at the end of their own personal worlds, all the rest of that sort of thing.
		And that would seem to block progress or potentially block progress.
unidentified		Well, you know, fortunately, they get old and they die.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, that's the only hope.
unidentified		And the younger generation comes up and says, what the hell are those guys a little worried about?
unidentified		Of course you can do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Your view on the existence of intelligent life elsewhere, I refer now out to the edge, whatever it is, 10, 12 billion years, whatever.
unidentified		I'm sure there's intelligent life elsewhere.
unidentified		I mean, it can't be anything else but intelligent life elsewhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it could be.
unidentified		Well, if it is, it's an awful waste of space.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ah, you really did watch that.
		No, you're right.
		It is, and I certainly agree with you, but one has to hold out the possibility that we're alone.
		Sad, sad, sad, sad.
unidentified		Well, it's a Possibility, but if we understand what life is, and so far we're making some nice strides in that direction.
		I can't say we do, but we're making strides in that direction.
		It appears that life can exist elsewhere other than the planet Earth.
		If, let me put it to you another way.
		If it turns out that this is the only planet in the whole galaxy of galaxies called the universe that we live in, then everything that's out there is pure illusion.
		There can't be anything out there.
		It's all a creation of somebody's bizarre fancy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Our radio and television signals, certainly radio, ought to be out about 38 light years or so by now.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then if there is life within 38 light years, we should be receiving something.
unidentified		Well, if it's 38 light years away, we won't hear about it for another 38 light years, another 38 years, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, but the presumption there is that it just now is beginning to transmit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've got to assume that there are civilizations at various stages of development.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So where are the signals?
unidentified		Yeah, well, I don't think there's anything 38 light years away from us from what's happening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A fair conclusion, I guess.
unidentified		I mean, it's just maybe empty out there.
		Go out 38 light years.
		It ain't very far in the whole universe.
		I mean, after all, a galaxy is about 100,000 light years from side to side.
		So our Milky Way galaxy is pretty wide.
		We're not in any particularly advantageous point.
		We're pretty ordinary when it comes to positioning us in the whole galactic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, we're kind of in the suburbs, aren't we?
unidentified		We are pretty much a burb kind of place.
		Yeah, we're out there.
		That's why I'm saying there's nothing particularly remarkable about us.
		So it seemed to be that there's got to be others like us around.
		I mean, I can't imagine there wouldn't be.
		I mean, why would, from a spiritual point of view, why would God spend so much time in this little dot in this vast cosmos called the universe?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Huh, God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you'd be able to ride in the machine if you had your chance, huh?
unidentified		What's that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I say you'd be able to ride in the machine if you'd had your chance.
unidentified		Ride in a machine?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah, the machine.
unidentified		What's the machine?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Jody Foster's a machine.
		Oh, yeah.
		I think there was that thing about God.
unidentified		I would go at a hard flick, sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No problem.
unidentified		No, no problem.
unidentified		And actually, every one of us goes on that trip.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's called the Big D. Have you done any study in that area?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Near death, yeah?
unidentified		Yes, yes, I have.
unidentified		I've looked into it to some extent, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that the near-death experience is the same realm that people who claim to be able to remote view, people who do the kind of dreaming you were talking about earlier, all these, are they the same realm, Doctor?
unidentified		There's an overlap.
		They're not the same, but there's an overlap.
		There seems to be evidence of overlapping factors, of out-of-body experience, certain forms of lucid dream states, near-death experience.
		There's an overlap.
		But they're not the same.
		The thing that, well, let's put it this way.
		A physicist friend of mine, whose name I don't want to say, had been doing some experiments with a drug called ketamine, which was the hit back in the 70s.
		Everybody was doing it, including John Lilly, who is very well known for his ketamine trips.
		And his description as a physicist of what he experienced under this drug was very much like an out-of-body near-death experience, but it was much more profound.
		He began to lose consciousness, not of consciousness of being conscious, but consciousness of being a particular person with consciousness.
		In other words, right now, I'm conscious, but I'm also very conscious that I'm Fred Allen Wolf holding a telephone in my hand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is the use of that a legitimate avenue to an altered state?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If not a legal one, but a legitimate avenue?
unidentified		I'm not sure what legitimate means in terms of what legal telephone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no, no, no, forget the legal part of it.
		Is it a legitimate avenue?
		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yeah, I definitely think so.
		Yeah, I think altered states of awareness, through any means, is a legitimate area of research.
		It's ridiculous that we, I mean, here we are living in a world in which we've just blanketly said no on drugs to everybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I know.
unidentified		And I totally agree that we should not be, we should say no on drugs to children, to people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, hold on.
		We're at the top of the hour, and I know that you're not a late person, but you seem to be doing pretty well.
		Can you hang in?
unidentified		I can hang for a little while longer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
		Stay right where you are.
		I interviewed recently somebody who certainly agrees with you.
		His name is Terence McKenna.
		Very, very interesting fellow.
		We talked about the same sorts of things.
		I'm Art Bell.
		This is Coast to Coast A.M. to experiment with in your view.
unidentified		Which?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Chemicals.
unidentified		Oh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
unidentified		Yes, definitely.
		I think it's a mistake that we don't experiment with them.
		For example, I spent time with indigenous peoples in various parts of the world.
		I wrote a book about it called The Eagle's Quest, where I also did whatever the shamans were doing in order for me to understand what the heck we were doing.
		And there are medical clinics now being built in the jungle where people are looking at various diseases that human beings are subject to and are working ways out to heal or to bring about radical change in people that would not Normally be healed through the use of hallucinogenic substances, which are poisonous to the body.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is the drug war a fraud?
unidentified		The drug war is probably a fraud.
		It's hard to say exactly what's going on here.
		I mean, it's obvious that we're, you know, that there's so much, according to government sources, that there's so much drugs, so many drugs coming into the country it's impossible to control it all.
		But it's also probably some visible way that we're supporting all this at the same time.
		So it's very difficult to say what the heck is going on there.
		I'm not very good when it comes to politics.
		I know it's a vicious circle or a loop in some strange, bizarre way.
		And I know the government has been involved in a lot of the drug research that has been done.
		And I even suspect they were probably that by the government, I don't mean the secret government, I mean that human beings like you and I doing honest research inadvertently come across or do things which they didn't realize would cause so much damage or cause damage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're not kidding.
unidentified		It's not that people are mean or evil or cruel.
		It's just that we're basically not very bright.
		And, you know, that's just the way it is.
		I mean, you know, what really bugs me is so many people think, you know, like they have this ex-file.
		I'm going to tell you, the government is the secret group of powerful, rich, fat, smoking, intelligent people.
		Well, take out the word intelligent and maybe you've got it right.
		But the rest of it is just total nonsense.
		Have you ever worked for the government?
		I have.
		And most people in the government aren't necessarily the brightest people in the world.
		I mean, they don't take government jobs as they do.
		I'm not trying to put them down.
		But I'm saying that, you know, people that are bright usually don't work for the government.
		I mean, there are some very bright people working for the government.
		Don't get me wrong.
		I'm probably going to get my foot in my mouth by saying this.
		And there's some very good people that work for the government.
		That's not the point.
		The point is that a lot of people aren't because the government jobs tend to be cushy or people get guaranteed for life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I was in the Air Force.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I never saw so much waste in my whole life.
unidentified		You know what I'm talking about.
		You know what I'm talking about.
		It's that kind of mentality.
		You get lazy.
		You get mentally lazy.
		And also people that teach at certain kind of schools where they get tenure, they get mentally lazy and they become, you know, they just aren't effective as teachers anymore.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you tenured?
unidentified		No, I quit.
		I walked away from tenure because to me that's the quickest way to the grave is to become a tenured professor at a university.
		Well, you've got to be on the edge.
		You've got to be surviving.
		You've got to be fighting.
		You've got to be out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, the one man who's out there is John Max, who had it not been for tenure, you can bet your boot he would be gone.
unidentified		Well, the point is, you know, in a way, as far as his compadres at the university are concerned, he is already gone.
		I mean, you're not going to believe him.
		So what is he holding on to?
		I mean, you know, what's the point of it?
		So, I mean, he's not going to be considered to be any more credible if you were on the outside, if you were on the inside.
		I mean, I'm glad he's still there, but again, I like him.
		He's a friend.
		But the point is, you know, what are we protecting?
		I mean, you know, what exactly is going on here?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it protects his bully pulpit.
unidentified		His what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		His bully pulpit.
		In other words, he can speak with the authority of Harvard.
		And if they train wrecked him, his words would not carry the same weight any longer.
		So there is some value.
unidentified		You know, I honestly, there may be some value in the public's mind, but in people in the world, in the academic world, just because you're a professor doesn't mean a darn thing to them, because they're professors too.
		So, you know, it's like Woody Allen said.
		I would never join a club that would nominate me as a member.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One avenue of research with regard to a subject we were talking about earlier is SETI.
		Is SETI a fraud?
		No.
		Is it a dumb way to go about working?
unidentified		No, no, no, not at all.
		No, definitely not a fraud.
		No, it's a very, very legitimate and worthwhile work done by some very respectable and I think good scientists.
		No, I don't think it's a fraud at all.
		I mean, someone's got to do that kind of work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For how much longer do you think we will be distributing information through transmitted television, radio, and all the roofs of it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, how long do you think a civilization, as it progresses, continues to transmit in the electromagnetic spectrum?
unidentified		Well, if we make a breakthrough in light-speed transmissions, if we can break the light barrier, which I presume we're going to, all of this is going to seem as far-fetched to us, I mean, as old-fashioned to us as the computer is to the printing press.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, that really says it's not very long.
unidentified		Yeah, I think we are going to break a light barrier.
		But I myself do not know how to do it.
		So people don't call me on the phone or go to my website and say, how are we going to do this?
		I mean, I don't know.
		I just, my intuition tells me we're going to break it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then is it not possible that once we do, we will find an entire spectrum and zillions of conversations going on, which we can participate in at that point?
unidentified		I would say once you break the Lordic barrier, there is no distance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's why I asked you about SETI.
		Because it seems to me that the electromagnetic spectrum would be a very, very short-lived thing in a progressing civilization.
		It is.
unidentified		It's a small, tiny part of it, but that doesn't really stop doing it.
		I mean, maybe there is somebody out there 50 light years away or 100 light years away, and we'll find that out.
		So, you know, fine.
		I mean, it can't hurt.
		I mean, it's not costing us that much to do city.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you're right.
		But we imagine that any civilization which, for example, could transport its way here somehow or another would be sufficiently advanced that they would not use that kind of communication.
		It would be something entirely different.
unidentified		Do you remember the movie, the last Star Trek movie?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have them all.
unidentified		Okay, the last one.
		I'm a big Star Trek fan.
		So am I. Okay, so the last one, you remember what happens where this guy finally figures out how to build a warp drive, and as soon as they make a warp signature, the E.T. finally make contract with him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
unidentified		Okay, well, as soon as we figure out how to break the light barrier, I presume we're going to be in a lot of contact.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A man who I interview frequently, Dr. Michuf Kaku, actually thinks that one other way might be that on moons, it would be practical, if not probable, to plant the old 2001 obelisk so that when a civilization gets that far, there would be compact.
unidentified		Well, I think that the planting of obelisks on moons makes as much sense from my vision as going back and throwing in ships that were built in 1492 in order to explore the universe.
unidentified		I mean, to me, it's a dumb way of doing things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Theoretical physicists disagree a lot, though, would they?
unidentified		Well, yeah.
		I mean, we can afford to.
		We're theoretical.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you enjoy the path you have taken, or do you at times really?
unidentified		Life is very interesting for me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it is.
unidentified		It is wonderful.
		I enjoy my life.
		I'm not the richest guy in the world.
		I haven't made a lot of money doing what I do.
		I've been on the limb.
		I resigned my tenure faculty position back in the early, back in the mid-70s.
		I haven't had a job, what's called a regular kind of job, since.
		And I've been writing books, lecturing, consulting, doing scientific papers, doing research, and getting by doing what I really enjoy doing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's quite a turn to take.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you married with children?
unidentified		I was.
		I'm now my third marriage, and I'm very happily married.
		And I've had children from my first marriage and grandchildren.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did your wife at the time.
unidentified		Which wife?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the time that you left the university.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did she think you had lost your marbles?
unidentified		Yeah, I would say so.
		This was a time that, you know, it's a difficult time in my life.
		This was hard on me.
		It was hard on my then-wife.
		It was hard on my children.
		It was a tough time.
		It was tough for everybody.
		I can't say I'm exactly proud of the way I did things then.
		I was, you know, headstrong and young and eager to explore the world and probably got married much too young for my age.
		I was like 23 and started having children by the time I was 25.
		I mean, it was just more than I could bear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, but had you not made the move, you'd probably be a tenured, pot-bellied, fat-dumb and happy.
unidentified		Yeah, I think I'm all those, but I'm not tenured.
		No, I mean, I'm in pretty good shape.
		I run three miles every day.
		I really take care of my health.
		I'm pretty much a vegetarian.
		I'm happily married.
		I really believe in taking care of this body and taking care of my body, people I come in contact with.
		I believe it's important to be positive, to be uplifting, to encourage kids to think, etc.
		I'm generally a happy person.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of these things that we talked about this evening, what do you suppose we will see in our lifetimes?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're here for such a short time.
unidentified		Yeah, in our lifetime, I'm not sure how old you are.
unidentified		In my lifetime, maybe I've got another 20, 30 years at the most.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Same here.
unidentified		What?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Same here.
unidentified		Okay, so I think that you and I will probably, probably see the breaking of the life barrier.
		I have a hunch we're going to get through that one.
		I think we're going to see, in our lifetime, we're going to see truly artificially intelligent devices which will be mimicking life so well that they deserve to be called alive.
		And these will be built from sand rather than carbon-based units.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Any danger in that?
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No?
unidentified		No, I don't think so at all.
		I mean, you know, why should we assume, why should we be only prejudiced to wet carbon meat?
		Why can't we also include dry silicon crystals in consciousness and aliveness and spirituality and all this stuff?
		Why should we close ourselves to anything that's possible?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if we do that, have we not created?
unidentified		Well, who's to say that we aren't co-creators in this universe?
		Who's to say that this isn't the true meaning of what God is all about?
		As I said, this is a very young universe.
		We are very, very young.
		We're only 15 billion years old.
		If the current models are correct, we've got at least 20 billion billion years ahead of us before we come to a big crunch.
		If we come to a big crunch, or even more if we just keep going on expanding forever, I don't think we're going to expand forever, by the way.
		I think we are going to crunch out.
		During that whole period of time, I think the universe has got a lot of growing to do, a lot of maturing to do, and we, as conscious, intelligent beings, also have a lot of that to do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, what a pleasure it has been to interview you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know you're a day person, but we've got to find a time in the future when we can do this again and spend time.
unidentified		Oh, sure.
		I would love to do it.
		The summer might be good in maybe July or August or September.
		My new book will be coming out then, and we could talk about some more spiritual things if you want to get into that.
		I would like to talk about physics and the vacuum and spirituality and the hidden secrets of Kabbalah and all that sort of stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A million universes to go down.
unidentified		A million universes to go down, Arch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, my friend.
unidentified		You're very welcome.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		And that, folks, is Dr. Fred Allen Wolfe, and what a pleasure he is.
		I received a detailed three-page facts from, I will call him Kent for now, in Ohio earlier today.
		Lynn Moulton Howe has also talked to Kent at my behest and feels that what he has to say is solid as a rock.
		Kent was a Jet Propulsion Laboratory employee who was just fired.
		He's on the line now.
		Kent, welcome to the program.
		Hi, Ert.
		Hi.
		I think we should begin this story by finding out how you came to be employed by JPL.
		Apparently, you were in the...
unidentified		I was in the Army.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Army?
unidentified		And I was stationed over there in Germany for four and a half years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And while I was there, I was supposed to, I had gone through the series of clicks and checks to get a security clearance.
unidentified		I had a secret or better.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Secret or better security clearance?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the reason for that?
unidentified		The reason for that was that I was a driver there for 37 Transportation Group right there in Kaiserslautern, right there at Claibor-Kacern.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		And I was there during the very early 80s during the Pershing II missile buildups.
unidentified		And anybody that hauled the missiles had to have a secret clearance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That makes sense.
		You haul Pershings.
		You better have a clearance.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you did that.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		You were in the military for how long?
unidentified		A total of six years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Six years.
		All right.
		How long ago did you get out, by the way?
unidentified		I got out in April of 85.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		April of 85.
		All right.
		What did you do after you got out?
unidentified		Well, I got out and I got a driving job there for Brock's Transport there out of Los Angeles.
		I had originally had UTS'd out of the Army up there at Fort Lewis.
		I was up there with the 109th MI Battalion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And I certainly enjoyed the Northwest and everything else.
		And I wasn't married and single and everything and had a little bit of money in the bank and had bought a vehicle.
		So I just traveled down I-5 and kind of picked up stakes down here in Southern California for a little while and got my chauffeur's license and went to work for Brocks Transport, which was a coast-to-coast produce carrier or whatnot.
		You know, they were a common carrier.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And how long were you there?
unidentified		I was approximately employed there for until 92.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Until 92.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then what?
unidentified		And then I didn't really like being over the road all that much.
		And so I went ahead and I got a courier job right there in the Los Angeles area.
		I worked for a courier company Auda Bezusa.
		And then through that courier company there, there was, I heard of an opening there at the JPL.
		And I went ahead and I...
		Yes, sir.
		That's a jet propulsion laboratory in Pasadena, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so you were a courier applying to JPL to do what?
unidentified		I was basically applying there to be a gopher.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go for this, go for that.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go for coffee, go for water.
unidentified		Yes.
		Well, I didn't really do the coffee bit.
		I was basically your usual errand boy.
		I didn't bring Chinese takeout or anything, but I was your basic errand boy there.
		I ran errands for the upper Mucky Mucks and the bigwigs and just basic everyday stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You were employed by JPL as of about what date?
unidentified		June 13th of 97.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And apparently they liked the fact that you were ex-military.
		You've been a courier.
		You had a secret clearance or better.
		And they liked all of that and hired you.
unidentified		Yes.
		A gentleman by the name of Mr. Schuyler hired me down there.
		And he had made the comment.
		He said that they liked the fact that I had a secret or better security clearance there in the military.
		And I had just made a quick statement, you know, a gopher.
		What's he need to do?
		Now he says you might be handling some sensitive documents here and there.
		I said, okay, no problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long were you an employee of JPL?
unidentified		How long was I employed there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I was employed there for approximately 10 months.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		10 months.
		All right.
		Something obviously got in the way of continued employment at JPL.
		So I guess it's time for you to tell that story.
		You were given something for Federal Express.
		Is that right?
unidentified		Yes.
		One of my duties was to Federal Express out photographs.
		And the day in question, I was given a, when they give us photographs, they're in between two thin sheets of cardboard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Makes sense, right?
unidentified		And they roll them up very, very loosely there.
		And my job is to take their photographs and put them into the Federal Express cylinders.
		Put the cap onto the Federal Express cylinder, seal it, take it down to the lady where the Federal Express machine is, and then she fills out the labels, puts them on there, and puts them into the outbound box for Federal Express.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Makes sense.
unidentified		Well, the day in question, I was given these photographs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was the day in question, by the way?
unidentified		April 14th.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		April 14th of this year.
		In other words, just a few days ago.
		Yes.
		Okay.
unidentified		And after receiving the photographs, I immediately went over to the Federal Express supply closet, which there's other people that have access there.
		And we were elbowed out of photograph cylinders.
		So then I called Federal Express to, and the lady answered the phone, and I told her that I needed some FedEx supplies to include some photo cylinders.
		And she had said, okay, that the courier would bring them by.
		And so then I didn't have much to do until Federal Express got there.
		So I went into the break room.
		I like sitting there by the one by the window there at the back table.
		And anyway, I was sitting there drinking some hot chocolate there when the maintenance tech guy walked in.
		You know, we've always seen each other in the halls and whatever.
		We've always given the guy greeting of the day, you know, and everything.
		And so we didn't really know each other, but we've seen each other before.
		So he comes into the break room and he says you're taking a break a little early.
		And I told him I was waiting on FedEx.
		So he had gone to the coffee machine and got himself a cup of coffee.
		And he was right-handed, and the photographs in question were right there on the side of the table.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, these are the photographs that were in your possession to be turning over to FedEx?
unidentified		Yes, and I set them down onto the table so I could eat my crackers and hold my book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		And I set them down right there at the edge of the table.
		And the gentleman had come sit down there to, you know, we were talking, and he had sat down, and he's right-handed, and his cup, when he sat down the coffee cup onto the table, the photographs rolled off the table kind of at a diagonal area.
		And one of the photographs had completely come out of the between the two cardboard sheets.
		And he looks down there and says, hey, look, it's a picture of a mask down there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A mask?
unidentified		A mask.
		And so I bent over to pick up that picture.
		I set it down on a table, and I had to unroll that so I could put that picture back in there.
		There was a total of nine photographs in there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nine photographs.
unidentified		Nine photographs.
unidentified		Two were of masks, and others were of structures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you say a mask, what do you mean?
unidentified		Well, it was a full aerial shot of a face.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Excuse me, Kent, the face on Mars?
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		The face on Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were there dates on these photographs?
unidentified		Yes, there were dates on the photographs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What were the dates?
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		The one was dated April 2nd, and then there was another one there of the other mask, which was dated April 2nd as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		April 2nd.
		April 2nd.
		And now this was, let us be sure what we're talking about, a picture of what you call the mask, the face on Mars, obviously, taken from what angle?
unidentified		Well, it was almost a direct overlook.
		It was almost a direct overlook.
		face was just to decide at the center of the picture itself.
		And No, no, no, not at a 45-degree angle.
		I mean, if you looked at this picture, I mean, you know, you put a mask down on a sandbox, and you take a picture of it, and maybe you're just off-center just a little bit, you take a picture of this, and there it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And there it was, in great relief.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, you could see it quite clearly.
unidentified		Oh, yes.
		Definitely.
		I mean, there was a picture, you know, Frankenstein's head is very, very flat.
		And then there was like a headdress right there.
		And then you come down, you got the eyebrows there, and then you got two eye sockets there.
		You got the nose.
		You got the two holes there where the nostrils go.
		And then you got the mouth.
		And there was a, I'd say, a mediocre chin on it, and then high cheekbones.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And two photographs of the face.
unidentified		Yes, but one was one was, you know, looked like it was taken right there in broad daylight, and it was copper-colored.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, when you say broad daylight, when you look down at the face, and I've seen many pictures of the face on Mars Viking and the new images, and the sun was directly into the features?
unidentified		Yes, it was totally defined.
unidentified		There was no shadows in the eye sockets.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
unidentified		This is the end of...
unidentified		And now, back to the best of Artfell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		And the other photographs?
		All right.
unidentified		The other photographs were, one of the photographs that we looked at was, okay, now picture World War II, okay, picture the bombed-out cities of Germany.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		You know, them buildings that are all bombed out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		And there was a structure on there that had no roof on it whatsoever.
unidentified		Okay, it was kind of oblong-shaped.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're saying it was a building minus a roof?
unidentified		Yes.
		And there was one of the walls had been knocked out.
		Like, say, if you went inside and had a sledgehammer or something and was knocking out the wall, there was like a rock of, you know, there was rocks that was coming out from that wall that were laid down and they were screwed out all over the place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		So it was not, there was nothing ambiguous about it.
		In other words, you know that you were looking at a structure minus a roof and part of one wall.
unidentified		Oh, yeah, that's a no-brainer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		And then a few of the other photographs had what the B looks like pyramidic structures.
		And the maintenance tech guy had made even a comment.
		He says, you know, if you look at these pictures real good, it looks like they took pictures of Egypt.
		And I looked at them there, and I said, well, Egypt's not red, is it?
		And so, and at that time, I didn't know what I was looking at.
		And about that time, you know, when we're looking at the pictures, I heard an oh my God.
		And there was one of the bigwigs.
		He was standing right there in the doorway.
		And then he said, oh, my God, it again.
		And now we were like five or six paces away from the doorway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He was at the door.
unidentified		Yeah, he was at the doorway to the break room.
		And there's, you know, a good-sized man would take five or six steps to get to where we are.
		It took him three steps to get there.
		And, you know, he's given us a few unpleasant subtleties there as he's putting the photographs back in between the cardboard.
		And he immediately rushes out there with them.
		And so then a couple of minutes had gone by, the maintenance tech had told me that he didn't mean to get me in trouble.
		You know, actually, he didn't get me in trouble, you know, and everything else.
		And so he had to go back to work.
		And then about two or so minutes later, there's a lady that walked in and she told me to report up to Mr. Schuyler's office immediately.
		So I had gone up to Mr. Schuyler's office and he started really chewing my butt big time.
		And then he says, what, blank, are you looking at pictures from Mars?
		I didn't know I was looking at Mars pictures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, he said Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He said Mars.
unidentified		Yes, he said Mars.
unidentified		Maybe it slipped out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
unidentified		But he said, well, you go on back and do what you're going to do.
		And then about quarter to two that afternoon, he calls me back up to his office there and he tells me to clean my stuff out.
		And he said that your services are no longer needed here.
		I said, okay.
		I gave him a few little rebuttals there and he says, no, I don't want to hear it.
		He says, your duties were perfectly clear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did he say why you were being terminated?
unidentified		Because of unsatisfactory job or job-related issues.
unidentified		So it wasn't, I knew what I was being fired for because one of the big wigs down there didn't like me looking at them pictures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Had you explained to him how the accident had occurred?
unidentified		Yes, I did.
		Yes, I did.
		And he said it doesn't matter.
		You should have just put the picture back in there.
		We don't need, we don't.
		He said, no, not him now.
		The other big wig that I heard down there in the cafeteria, we don't need the American public looking at these pictures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kent, where were these photographs going?
unidentified		A lot of the photographs were being sent to Washington, D.C. Some of the cylinders were being sent to the United Nations.
		There was even one cylinder that I know of for a fact that was, because I was the one that the CIA.
		Well, yeah, obviously.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So now you obviously now know exactly what you understand the implications of what you're saying?
unidentified		Yes, I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What made you decide to get hold of me?
unidentified		Well, immediately after I got fired, I went home and my neighbor there, he works for Wells Fargo, and he's got a night job.
		And so we gave the greeting of the day, you know, he says, yeah, you're home early, ain't you?
		I says, yeah.
		So I went upstairs and I made coffee, and I told him, I sat down there and I told him the whole story.
		And he's just sitting there with his mouth open.
		He says, I got the perfect guy you need to talk to.
		And I says, well, who's that?
		I said, I don't really want to talk to anybody.
		And he says, you need to talk to Arbell.
		And so he started going into this elaborate thing about your show and what it consists of and what you talk about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Please be sure and thank him for me.
unidentified		I will definitely do that.
		And then I was talking to some other people and they told me definitely to do that.
		So he gave me your fax number along with your other phone number to call.
		And so I just decided I'd go ahead and fax because there's more anonymity in faxing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you worried about your own safety?
unidentified		Not really because I was, you know, I was in the Army, you know, and I took self-defense courses and stuff.
		But as far as my immediate safety from our government, a little bit because of the simple fact is that after that day, you know, he had left and gone to work.
		And I went ahead and gone out that night.
		You know, I like to eat out a lot.
		And so I came back to my apartment and I went upstairs.
		And, you know, I'm a single guy and I'm a lousy housekeeper.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kent, on that note, hold on.
		We'll come back to you after the break.
		My guest is Kent.
		I've got his last name, by the way, and a lot of other details, which at this moment I'm not giving out.
		We'll ask him if he wants to give them.
		At this point, he might as well, I suppose.
		I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast A.M. Good morning, everybody.
		My guest is Kent.
		He was, until just a few days ago, a jet propulsion laboratory employee in Pasadena.
		He saw some photographs that we all wish we could see.
		Kent, are you there?
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's okay.
		The military is still with you, I can tell.
		I'm just art.
		Kent, you understand, don't you, the implications of what you're saying?
unidentified		Yes, I do.
		And I, like I was saying before we went to the break there, I went back upstairs, and I'm not the best housekeeper.
		And I just have just an ordinary telephone, one of them fancy things.
		And I went to go over there to call mom, and I noticed my phone had been moved because I don't dust.
		Well, I do dust, but dust just piles up around there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
unidentified		And I noticed that the phone had been moved.
		I mean, it wasn't in the same place.
		Well, I could just tell that by just looking at the circle underneath the phone where the phone used to be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I...
unidentified		Yes, I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		And I'm a confirmed bachelor.
		And so I immediately got suspicious and I started looking around at other things right around in my immediate surrounding right there around the couch and I noticed the lamp had been moved and I said wait a minute here something ain't right.
		And I took the cover off the receiver of the phone there and there was this little black, looked like a little microchip in there.
		And I immediately hung up the phone.
		I unplugged it from the wall socket there too and I packed up my bag and I jumped in my tickup and went down to the airport and flew out here to see an Army buddy of mine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that's how you left the house?
unidentified		Yeah, that's how I left the house.
		I didn't want to have anything to do with these.
		I was all the way on the plane.
		I was sitting there thinking.
		I says, you know, who did I talk to?
		Who did I tell?
		I mean, I didn't, I mean, is this thing that big that I'm, you know, that people are going to be looking at me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Apparently, this is the 18th of April.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This occurred in the, what, in the afternoon of the 14th of April?
unidentified		When I left?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, when you got fired.
unidentified		Oh, yes.
unidentified		I got fired at quarter to two.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Quarter to two?
unidentified		Yes, I specifically remember because I looked at Mr. Schuyler's digital clock and it said 1345 when I walked out of the office.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A couple of details.
		This is so important, Kent.
		The photographs you say in your facts, a detail we didn't cover, were in color.
unidentified		Yes, they were.
		Yes, they were copper in color, and there were some other landscapings by it there that were different shades of copper color.
		I call it copper.
		I mean, somebody might call it rust or something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Reddish.
unidentified		Yes, yes, definitely.
		And they were, I mean, they were high-resolution photographs.
		I mean, you could plainly see that they were taken.
		Like if you took a picture of the Washington monument with a 35-millimeter camera, that's how clear it was.
		And it was plainly taken over an aerial from an aerial shot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And this official clearly said, we don't need the American people to see these?
unidentified		Yeah, one of the upper Mucky Mucks, the suit guy, when they were in the break room, boy, you wouldn't believe the stuff they talked about in there.
		But he had plainly said, quote, he said, we don't need these pictures to get out to the American public.
		So what are you going to do now, Kid?
		I'm going to go someplace where I know that I'll be safe.
		My backyard, sort of speak, place where I grew up.
		And it's a big country, and at least up there, at least I'll know where I'm at, and I'll know that I'm going to be okay up there anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		During the months that you were at JPL, you must have made some friends, some acquaintances.
unidentified		Yes, I did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		People you worked with, that sort of thing?
unidentified		Yeah, but mostly I basically kept to myself.
		I did my job.
		I kept my mouth shut just like I was told to do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where I was going with that was, is there anybody you can think of, Kent, that you might prevail upon to back your story up to themselves tell what they know?
unidentified		The maintenance tech, but I don't think it'd be nice for me to give his name out over there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no.
		Don't do that.
		But I mean, if you were to try and contact him privately yourself, I mean, this is we all want to believe, Kent, that our American government is leveling with us.
		There are many people who have suspicions that for some time, particularly NASA, has not been leveling with us.
		You would seem to have evidence of that being true.
unidentified		Can I tell you something?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		Here back in July of last year, there was, I mean, things were really busy around there.
		I mean, they were right there around 24 hours around the clock.
		And we were rather, and I had come in and I had got sent out on a courier.
		And I had come back and I immediately went into the break room and there was two gentlemen sitting there and they were looking at another photograph just like the ones that I had rolled up.
		And they were looking at some kind of a halfway structure or something that had crumbled down.
		And I'm assuming myself personally that that was taken by the sojourner.
		And they were plainly looking at something, and I was over there at the coffee machine, and I was just glancing to look, and it was a perfectly defined, like a broken down, great big giant brick structure is what it was.
		And then they were trying to define it.
		And then one of the gentlemen says, are you going to eat on this?
		He says.
		So, you know, I put some of these conversations together, and you just remember certain things that you hear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anything else you can think of?
unidentified		No, but there was a lot of excitement there preluding to March 31st.
		And I know this because I had gotten called in to do some special things on Saturday, which doesn't normally happen for me.
		I'm a Monday through Friday type of guy.
		And they asked me if I would work on Saturday.
		I said, sure, no problem.
		And they were really getting excited about this.
		And they were talking about a probe up there on Mars right now.
		And one of the things that they were discussing was that any of the high-resolution photographs come back.
		And one of the guys was saying, he says, well, we can milk up the photographs any way we want to.
		What they said was, is milk them up.
		I don't know what they meant by that.
		I was assuming my own personal assumption that they can mess them up or whatever, however they were going to do that.
		And I was sitting there just wondering why they were going to do something like that.
		You know, milk up a photograph or something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kent, do you want to give your last name or hold that out?
unidentified		I would rather not right now, Mr. Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Here's what I want you to do.
		Yes.
		Find a way to keep in touch with me wherever you go from there.
		Find a way to keep in touch with me, number one.
		You know my fax number.
		Yes.
		So you know how to get through that way.
		Yes.
		Try and contact this other person.
		See if he's willing to come forward.
		Tell him what you know and see if he will then sort of jump on the bandwagon with you.
		That would definitely help.
		But your story comes out quite straight to me, Kent.
unidentified		Do you ever feel like the loneliest guy on the island?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've had those moments, Kent.
		Listen, I thank you for doing all this.
		The American people can sit out there now and judge for themselves.
unidentified		Would you do me a favor, please?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm listening.
unidentified		Would you thank Linda Howell for me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I sure will.
unidentified		And thank you, Mr. Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care, Kent.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, there you have it.
		And we'll sort of let it hang out there for all of you to judge.
		Here's an immediate reaction.
		Linda Moulton Howe had a long talk with this man, as did Richard Hoagland.
		Perhaps not a long talk, but a talk.
		Richard, welcome to the program.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
		You heard all that, obviously, the first interview, now the repeat of it.
		Yep.
		Comments?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, I talked with our friend Kent.
		We won't use his last name for the time being.
		I will tell you that he has agreed to stay in close touch.
		He is going upcountry.
		He's going to try to lose himself in wonderful, desolate country.
		And I urged him to sit down with an interview with the Washington Post or with Ted Coppel or some other people we could arrange.
		I asked him a number of questions.
		I am, I would say, 98% convinced that this is a bona fide story.
		There are just too many little intricate details, including some information that I have from some other people that are kind of in parallel fields at the National Security Agency in terms of how truly sensitive material can be handled in a very cavalier manner.
		For people who don't think that you might put these kind of extraordinary images in FedEx, in fact, it's exactly what people have done and continue to do because it's the needle in a haystack.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, you have, without saying exactly what it is because we don't want to give it away, you've got corroborating evidence in the works from him?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes.
		And we're talking about bona fides of employment and things like that.
		He left in such a hurry that he didn't have time to really bring any records, but he's had friends now.
		He's actually called them at my behest, and they've gone to his apartment and, you know, materials that will prove pay stubs from Caltech, things like that.
		So even if JPL were to electronically vanish him tomorrow, which they could easily do.
		When you call or I call and we try to find out his employment and they claim he never worked there, we will have on paper proof that in fact he did work there.
		So we're making those kind of moves.
		Let's back up and look at the larger picture.
		This is the reason why we need the grand jury.
		It's exactly this kind of evidentiary material, which is more proof that, in fact, we are not being leveled with.
		And frankly, I am very upset about this because it is so brazen and so blatant and so cavalier and so denigrating to the American people if this should prove to be an accurate story, which at this point, as I said, I really think if this guy is not for real, he deserves an Academy.
		I could not find a false note.
		And Linda talked to him a long time.
		I talked to him for about half an hour.
		The poor guy is dead on his feet.
		He is staying with a friend who's reaching the airport tomorrow.
		One odd note he has been researching on his own now, because obviously when you trip it, it spurs your curiosity.
		He went to the library and found one book called The Face on Mars, which of course is Randy Pozo's description of our own independent Mars investigation.
		And when I connected the dots, you know, I'm the Dick Hoagland in the book, he practically fainted.
		He said he never imagined anything like this.
		He never imagined that he'd ever be talking to, you know, when I told him the scale of the audience that listens to you, he was blown away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, well, this is well he didn't know.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		This is a nice guy who just at the right place at the right time, or if you want to look at it another way, the wrong place at the right time.
		And I'm really thinking that we've got a very important lead.
		And let me say this.
		If anybody knows Kent, if anybody is friends with him or really believes in the Constitution, now is the time to fax Art or myself and to provide us with additional information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, and I'll get those fax numbers out.
		I just wanted to bring you on for a quick reaction.
		Richard, thank you so much.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Art.
unidentified		Take care.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, folks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll do an hour of open lines coming up.
unidentified		Bye-bye.
		of Thigh, this is Coaster Coast A.M. with our bell.
		First-time callers may recharge at Area Code 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, the Gizars.
		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is a little bit new bumper music, but I thought you might want to sample.
		I heard it, I don't know, about two, three weeks ago and fell in love with it.
		So tonight, here it is.
		Listen to a little.
		Good morning from the high desert.
		She has a haunting voice, doesn't she?
		Kind of reminiscent of the early Stevie Nicks, I think.
		That's brand new, and I'm not going to even tell you what it is just yet.
		I've got something very serious coming up for you in a moment, so stay right where you are.
		Well, now I've seen it all.
		They're on the web now at www.play.com.
		That's P-L-A-Y.com.
		Well, all right.
		In the last hour, for those of you who did not get to hear it, Linda Moulton Howe interviewed Dr. Mark Carlotto doing the photograph enhancement work from the photographs taken by Dr. Malin.
		Dr. Carlotto was lamenting the fact that they were taken at a 45, in other words, the face on Mars was taken at roughly a 45-degree angle from the spacecraft to the face.
		And he was lamenting, of course, the haze that Dr. Malin now admits was in that photograph as well.
		The obvious wish would be that they had taken a photograph of the face from a spot directly above the face so that we might duplicate what we had previously so many years ago, 22 years ago, with the Viking images, and judge whether or not we had the same thing.
		Well, what if we do have those photographs?
		I received a detailed three-page facts from, I will call him Kent for now, in Ohio earlier today.
		Lynn Molten Howe has also talked to Kent at my behest and feels that what he has to say is solid as a rock.
		Kent was a jet propulsion laboratory employee who was just fired.
		He's on the line now.
		Kent, welcome to the program.
		Hi, Art.
		Hi.
		I think we should begin this story by finding out how you came to be employed by JPL.
		Apparently you were in the military.
		What branch of the military were you in?
unidentified		I was in the Army.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Army?
unidentified		And I was stationed over there in Germany for four and a half years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And while I was there, I was supposed to, I had gone through the series of clicks and checks to get a security clearance.
unidentified		I had a secret or better.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Secret or better security clearance?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the reason for that?
unidentified		The reason for that was that I was a driver there for 37 Transportation Group right there in Kaiserslaughter and right there at Claibor-Kacern.
		Okay.
		And I was there during the very early 80s during the Pershing II missile buildups.
		And anybody that hauled the missiles had to have a secret clearance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That makes sense.
		You hauled Pershings.
		You better have a clearance.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you did that.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		You were in the military for how long?
unidentified		A total of six years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Six years.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And how long ago did you get out, by the way?
unidentified		I got out in April of 85.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		April of 85.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What did you do after you got out?
unidentified		Well, I got out and I got a driving job there for Brock's Transport there out of Los Angeles.
		I had originally had ETS'd out of the Army up there at Fort Lewis.
		I was up there with the 109th MI Battalion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And I certainly enjoyed the Northwest and everything else.
		And I wasn't married and single and everything and had a little bit of money in the bank and had bought a vehicle.
		So I just traveled down I-5 and kind of picked up stakes down here in Southern California for a little while and got my chauffeur's license and went to work for Brocks Transport, which was a coast-to-coast produce carrier or whatnot.
		You know, they were a common carrier.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And how long were you there?
unidentified		I was approximately employed there until 92.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Until 92.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then what?
unidentified		And then I didn't really like being over the road all that much.
		And so I went ahead and I got a courier job right there in the Los Angeles area.
		I worked for a courier company out of Azusa.
		And then through that courier company there, I heard of an opening there to JPL.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I went ahead and I. So that's a jet propulsion laboratory in Pasadena?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		That's a jet propulsion laboratory in Pasadena, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so you were a courier applying to JPL to do what?
unidentified		I was basically applying there to be a gopher.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go for this, go for that?
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go for coffee, go for water.
unidentified		Yes.
		Well, I didn't really do the coffee bit.
		I was basically your usual errand boy.
		I didn't bring Chinese Takeout or anything.
		But I was your basic errand boy there.
		I ran errands for the upper Mucky Mucks and the bigwigs and just basic everyday stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You were employed by JPL as of about what date?
unidentified		June 13th of 97.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And apparently they liked the fact that you were ex-military.
		You'd been a courier.
		You had a secret clearance or better.
		And they liked all of that and hired you.
unidentified		Yes.
		A gentleman by the name of Mr. Schuyler hired me down there.
		And he had made the comment.
		He said that they liked the fact that I had a secret or better security clearance there in the military.
		And I had just made a quick statement, you know, a gopher.
		What's he need to do?
		Well, he says you might be handling some sensitive documents here and there.
		I said, okay, no problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long were you an employee of JPL?
unidentified		How long was I employed there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I was employed there for approximately 10 months.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		10 months.
		All right.
		Something obviously got in the way of continued employment at JPL.
		So I guess it's time for you to tell that story.
		You were given something for Federal Express.
		Is that right?
unidentified		Yes.
		One of my duties was to Federal Express out photographs.
		And the day in question, I was given a, when they give us photographs, they're in between two thin sheets of cardboard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Makes sense, right?
unidentified		And they roll them up very, very loosely there.
		And my job is to take their photographs and put them into the Federal Express cylinders.
		Put the cap onto the Federal Express cylinder, seal it, take it down to the lady where the Federal Express machine is, and then she fills out the labels, puts them on there, and puts them into the outbound box for Federal Express.
		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Makes sense.
unidentified		Well, the day in question, I was given these photographs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was the day in question, by the way?
unidentified		April 14th.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		April 14th of this year.
		In other words, just a few days ago.
		Yes.
unidentified		Okay.
		And after receiving the photographs, I immediately went over to the Federal Express supply closet, which there's other people that have access there.
		And we were elbowed out of photograph cylinders.
		So then I called Federal Express to, and the lady answered the phone, and I told her that I needed some FedEx supplies to include some photo cylinders.
		And she had said, okay, that the courier would bring them by.
		And so then I didn't have much to do until Federal Express got there.
		So I went into the break room.
		I like sitting there by the one by the window there at the back table.
		And anyway, I was sitting there drinking some hot chocolate there when the maintenance tech guy walked in.
		We've always seen each other in the halls and whatever.
		We've always given the guy greeting of the day and everything.
		So we didn't really know each other, but we've seen each other before.
		So he comes into the break room and he says you're taking a break a little early.
		And I told him I was waiting on FedEx.
		So he had gone to the coffee machine and got himself a cup of coffee.
		And he was right-handed, and the photographs in question were right there on the side of the table.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now these are the photographs that were in your possession to be turning over to FedEx?
unidentified		Yes, and I set them down onto the table so I could eat my crackers and hold my book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
unidentified		And I set them down right there at the edge of the table.
		And the gentleman had come sit down there to, you know, we were talking, and he had sat down, and he's right-handed, and his cup, when he sat down the coffee cup onto the table, the photographs rolled off the table kind of at a diagonal area.
		And one of the photographs had completely come out of the between the two cardboard sheets.
		And he looks down there and says, hey, look, it's a picture of a mask down there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A mask?
unidentified		A mask.
		And so I bent over to pick up that picture.
		I set it down on the table, and I had to unroll that so I could put that picture back in there.
		There was a total of nine photographs in there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nine photographs.
unidentified		Nine photographs.
unidentified		Two were of masks, and others were of structures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you say a mask, what do you mean?
unidentified		Well, it was a full aerial shot of a face.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the...
		Excuse me, Kent.
		The face on Mars?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were there dates on these photographs?
unidentified		Yes, there were dates on the photographs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What were the dates?
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		The one was dated April 2nd, and then there was another one there of the other mask, which was dated April 2nd as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		April 2nd.
		April 2nd.
		And now this was, let us be sure what we're talking about, a picture of what you call the mask, the face on Mars, obviously, taken from what angle?
unidentified		Well, it was almost a direct overlook.
		It was almost a direct overlook.
		The face was just to the side of the center of the picture itself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not at a 45-degree angle.
unidentified		No, no, no, not at a 45-degree angle.
unidentified		I mean, if you look at this picture, I mean, you know, you put a mask down on a sandbox, and you take a picture of it, and maybe you're just off-center just a little bit, you take a picture of this, and there it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And there it was, in great relief.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, you could see it quite clearly.
unidentified		Oh, yes.
		Definitely.
		I mean, there was a picture, you know, Frankenstein's head is very, very flat, and then there was like a headdress right there.
		And then you come down, you got the eyebrows there, and then you got two eye sockets there, you got the nose, you got the two holes there where the nostrils go, and then you got the mouth, and there was a, well, I'd say a mediocre chin on it, and then high cheekbones.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And two photographs of the face.
unidentified		Yes, but one was, one was, you know, it looked like it was taken right there in broad daylight, and it was copper-colored.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, when you say broad daylight, when you look down at the face, and I've seen many pictures of the face on Mars Viking and the new images, and the sun was directly into the features?
unidentified		Yes, it was totally defined.
unidentified		There was no shadows in the eye sockets.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
		All right.
		And the other photographs?
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		The other photographs were, one of the photographs that we looked at was, okay, now picture World War II, okay, picture the bombed-out cities of Germany.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		You know, them buildings that are all bombed out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		And there was a structure on there that had no roof on it whatsoever.
unidentified		Okay, it was kind of oblong-shaped.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're saying it was a building minus a roof?
unidentified		Yes.
		And there was one of the walls that had been knocked out.
		Like, say, if you went inside and had a sledgehammer or something and was knocking out the wall, there was like a rock of, you know, there was rocks that was coming out from that wall that were laid down and they were screwed out all over the place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		So it was not, there was nothing ambiguous about it.
		In other words, you know that you were looking at a structure minus a roof and part of one wall.
unidentified		Oh, yeah, that's a no-brainer.
		Okay.
		And then a few of the other photographs had what the looks like pyramidic structures.
		And the maintenance tech guy had made even a comment.
		He says, you know, if you look at these pictures real good, it looks like they took pictures of Egypt.
		And I looked at them there and I said, well, Egypt's not red, is it?
		And so, and at that time, I didn't know what I was looking at.
		And about that time, you know, when we're looking at the pictures, I heard an oh my God.
		And there was one of the bigwigs.
		He was standing right there in the doorway.
		And then he said, oh, my God, it again.
		And now we were like five or six paces away from the doorway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He was at the door.
unidentified		Yeah, he was at the doorway to the break room.
		And a good-sized man would take five or six steps to get to where we are.
		It took him three steps to get there.
		And, you know, he's given us a few unpleasant subtleties there as he's putting the photographs back in between the cardboard.
		And he immediately rushes out there with them.
		And so then a couple of minutes had gone by, the maintenance deck had told me that he didn't mean to get me in trouble.
		You know, actually, he didn't get me in trouble, you know, and everything else.
		And so he had to go back to work.
		And then about two or so minutes later, there's a lady that walked in, and she told me to report up to Mr. Schuyler's office immediately.
		So I had gone up to Mr. Schuyler's office, and he started really chewing my butt big time.
		And then he says, what blank are you looking at pictures from Mars?
		I didn't know I was looking at Mars pictures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, he said Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He said Mars.
unidentified		Yes, he said Mars.
		Maybe it slipped out.
		I don't know.
		But he said, well, you go on back and do what you're going to do.
		And then about quarter to two that afternoon, he calls me back up to his office there and he tells me to clean my stuff out.
		And he said that your services are no longer needed here.
		I said, okay.
		I gave him a few little rebuttals there and he says, no, I don't want to hear it.
		He says, your duties were perfectly clear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did he say why you were being terminated?
unidentified		Because of unsatisfactory job or job-related issues.
unidentified		So it wasn't, I knew what I was being fired for because one of the big wigs down there didn't like me looking at them pictures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Had you explained to him how the accident had occurred?
unidentified		Yes, I did.
		Yes, I did.
		And he said, it doesn't matter.
		You should have just put the picture back in there.
		We don't need, we don't.
		He said, no, not him now.
		The other bigwig that I heard down there in the cafeteria, we don't need the American public looking at these pictures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kent, where were these photographs going?
unidentified		A lot of the photographs were being sent to Washington, D.C. Some of the cylinders were being sent to the United Nations.
unidentified		There was even one cylinder that I know of for a fact that was, because I was the one that put the label on myself, and it was going to Langley.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The CIA?
unidentified		Well, yeah, obviously.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So now you obviously now know exactly what those photographs were.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know why you were fired.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you understand the implications of what you're saying?
unidentified		Yes, I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What made you decide to get hold of me?
unidentified		Well, immediately after I got fired, I went home and my neighbor there, he works for Wells Farville, and he's got a night job.
		And so we gave the greeting of the day, you know, he says, yeah, you're home early, ain't you?
		I says, yeah.
		So I went upstairs and I made coffee, and I sat down there and I told him the whole story.
		And he's just sitting there with his mouth open.
		He says, I got the perfect guy you need to talk to.
		And I says, well, who's that?
		I said, I don't really want to talk to anybody.
		And he says, you need to talk to Arbell.
		And so he started going into this elaborate thing about your show and what it consists of and what you talk about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Please be sure and thank him for me.
unidentified		I will definitely do that.
		And then I was talking to some other people and they told me definitely to do that.
		So he gave me your fax number along with your other phone number to call.
		And so I just decided I'd go ahead and fax because there's more anonymity in faxing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you worried about your own safety?
unidentified		Not really because I was, you know, I was in the Army, you know, and I took self-defense courses and stuff.
		But as far as my immediate safety from our government, a little bit because of the simple fact is that after that day, you know, he had left and gone to work.
		And I went ahead and gone out that night.
		You know, I like to eat out a lot.
		And so I came back to my apartment and I went upstairs.
		And, you know, I'm a single guy and I'm a lousy housekeeper.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ken, on that note, hold on.
		We'll come back to you after the break.
		My guest is Kent.
		I've got his last name, by the way, and a lot of other details, which at this moment I'm not giving out.
		We'll ask him if he wants to give them.
		At this point, he might as well, I suppose.
		I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		Coast AM.
		Coast AM.
		Paul Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nigh on the Wildcard Line.
		That's Area Code 702-727-1295.
		That's Area Code 702-727-1295.
		This is Ghost of Ghost AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, everybody.
		My guest is Kent.
		He was, until just a few days ago, a jet propulsion laboratory employee in Pasadena.
		He saw some photographs that we all wish we could see.
		Kent, are you there?
		Yes, sir.
		That's okay.
		The military is still with you, I can tell.
		I'm just Art.
		Kent, you understand, don't you, the implications of what you're saying?
unidentified		Yes, I do.
		And I, like I was saying before we went to the break there, I went back upstairs, and I'm not the best housekeeper.
		And I just have just an ordinary telephone.
		I went in fancy things, and I went to go over there to call mom, and I noticed my phone had been moved, because I don't dust.
		Well, I do dust, but dust just piles up around there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
unidentified		And I noticed that the phone had been moved.
		I mean, it wasn't in the same place.
		Well, I could just tell that by just looking at the circle underneath the phone where the phone used to be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I...
unidentified		Yes, I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		And I'm a confirmed bachelor.
		And so I immediately got suspicious, and I started looking around at other things right around in my immediate surrounding right there around the couch.
		And I noticed the lamp had been moved.
		And I said, wait a minute here.
		Something ain't right.
		And I took the cover off the receiver of the phone there.
		And there was this little black, looked like a little microchip in there.
		And I immediately hung up the phone.
		I unplugged it from the wall socket there, too.
		And I packed up my bag and I jumped in my pickup and went down to the airport and flew out here to see an Army buddy of mine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that's how you left the house?
unidentified		Yeah, that's how I left the house.
		I didn't want to have anything to do with these.
		I was all the way on the plane.
		I was sitting there thinking.
		I said, you know, who did I talk to?
		Who did I tell?
		I mean, I didn't, I mean, is this thing that big that I'm, you know, that people are going to be looking at me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Apparently, this is the 18th of April.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This occurred in the, what, in the afternoon of the 14th of April?
unidentified		When I left?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, when you got fired.
unidentified		Oh, yes.
unidentified		I got fired at quarter to two.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Quarter to two.
unidentified		Yes, I specifically remember because I looked at Mr. Schuyler's digital clock and it said 1345 when I walked out of the office.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A couple of details.
		This is so important, Kent.
		The photographs you say in your facts, a detail we didn't cover, were in color.
unidentified		Yes, they were.
		Yes, they were copper in color, and there were some other landscapings by it there that were different shades of different shades of copper color.
		I call it copper.
		I mean, somebody might call it rust or something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Reddish.
unidentified		Yes, yes, definitely.
		And they were, I mean, they were high-resolution photographs.
		I mean, you could plainly see that they were taken.
		Like if you took a picture of the Washington monument with a 35-millimeter camera, that's how clear it was.
		And it was plainly taken over an aerial from an aerial shot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And this official clearly said, we don't need the American people to see these.
unidentified		Yeah, one of the upper Mucky Mucks, the suit guy, when they were in the break room, boy, you wouldn't believe the stuff they talked about in there, but he had plainly said, quote, he said, We don't need these pictures to get out to the American public.
		So what are you going to do now, kid?
		I'm going to go someplace where I know that I'll be safe.
		In my backyard, sort of speak.
		Place where I grew up.
		And it's a big country, and at least up there, at least I'll know where I'm at, and I'll know that I'm going to be okay up there anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		During the months that you were at JPL, you must have made some friends, some acquaintances.
unidentified		Yes, I did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		People you worked with, that sort of thing?
unidentified		Yeah, but mostly I basically kept to myself.
		I did my job.
		I kept my mouth shut just like I was told to do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where I was going with that was, is there anybody you can think of, Kent, that you might prevail upon to back your story up to themselves tell what they know?
unidentified		The maintenance tech, but I don't think it'd be nice for me to give his name out over there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no.
		Don't do that.
		But I mean, if you were to try and contact him privately yourself, I mean, this is we all want to believe, Kent, that our American government is leveling with us.
		There are many people who have suspicions that for some time, particularly NASA, has not been leveling with us.
		You would seem to have evidence of that being true.
unidentified		Can I tell you something?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		Art?
		Sure.
unidentified		Here back in July of last year, things were really busy around there.
		I mean, they were right there around 24 hours around the clock.
		And we were rather, and I had come in and I had got sent out on a courier.
		And I had come back and I immediately went into the break room.
		And there was two gentlemen sitting there, and they were looking at another photograph just like the ones that I have rolled up.
		And they were looking at some kind of a halfway structure or something that had crumbled down.
		And I'm assuming myself personally that that was taken by the sojourner.
		And they were plainly looking at something, and I was over there at the coffee machine, and I was just glancing over their shoulder just briefly to look.
		And it was a perfectly defined, like a broken down, great big giant brick structure is what it was.
		And then they were trying to define it.
		And then one of the gentlemen says, are you going to release this?
		He says, ain't no way.
		I'm releasing this.
		I'm going to take any heat on this.
		He says.
		So, you know, I put some of these conversations together, and you just remember certain things that you hear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anything else you can think of that you heard while you were there of that same sort?
unidentified		No, but there was a lot of excitement there preluding to March 31st.
		And I know this because I had gotten called in to do some special things on Saturday, which doesn't normally happen for me.
		I'm a Monday through Friday type of guy, and they asked me if I would work on Saturday.
		I said, sure, no problem.
		And they were really getting excited about this.
		And they were talking about a probe up there on Mars right now.
		And one of the things that they were discussing was that any of the high-resolution photographs come back.
		And one of the guys was saying, he says, well, we can milk up the photographs any way we want to.
		What they said was, is milk them up.
		I don't know what they meant by that.
		I was assuming my own personal assumption that they could mess them up or whatever, however they were going to do that.
		And I was sitting there just wondering why they were going to do something like that.
		You know, milk up a photograph or something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kent, do you want to give your last name or hold that out?
unidentified		I would rather not right now, Mr. Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Here's what I want you to do.
		Yes.
		Find a way to keep in touch with me wherever you go from there.
		Find a way to keep in touch with me.
		You know my fax number.
		Yes.
		So you know how to get through that way.
		Yes.
		Try and contact this other person.
		See if he's willing to come forward.
		Tell him what you know and see if he will then sort of jump on the bandwagon with you.
		That would definitely help.
		But your story comes out quite straight to me, Kent.
unidentified		Do you ever feel like the loneliest guy on the island?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've had those moments, Kent.
		Listen, I thank you for doing all this.
		The American people can sit out there now and judge for themselves.
unidentified		Would you do me a favor, please?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm listening.
unidentified		Would you thank Linda Howell for me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I sure will.
unidentified		And thank you, Mr. Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care, Kent.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, there you have it.
		And we'll sort of let it hang out there for all of you to judge.
		As I so frequently do, what else can I do?
		But if you want my opinion, and I'm willing to give it in this circumstance, I think you just heard a real story.
		In a moment, Dr. Fred Allen Wolfe, and I believe he's been listening.
		It'd be very interesting to get his take on this, or maybe he wouldn't want to give it, and I wouldn't blame him.
		The Zeit out a lot.
unidentified		And so I came back to my apartment and I went upstairs.
unidentified		And, you know, I'm a single guy and I'm a lousy housekeeper.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where the interview is going to have to stop.
		There was more to it and some significant more to it.
		But we're going to have to stop it there because of our own time constraints right now.
		Here's an immediate reaction.
		Linda Moltenhow had a long talk with this man, as did Richard Hoagland.
		Perhaps not a long talk, but a talk.
		Richard, welcome to the program.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, guys.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
		You heard all that, obviously, the first interview, now the repeat of it.
		Yep.
		Comments?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, I talked with our friend Kent.
		We won't use his last name for the time being.
		I will tell you that he has agreed to stay in close touch.
		He is going upcountry.
		He's going to try to lose himself in wonderful, desolate country.
		And I urged him to sit down with an interview with the Washington Post or with Ted Coppel or some other people we could arrange.
		I asked him a number of questions.
		I am, I would say, 98% convinced that this is a bona fide story.
		There are just too many little intricate details, including some information that I have from some other people that are kind of in parallel fields at the National Security Agency in terms of how truly sensitive material can be handled in a very cavalier manner.
		For people who don't think that you might put these kind of extraordinary images in FedEx, in fact, it's exactly what people have done and continue to do because it's the needle in the haystack.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, you have, without saying exactly what it is, because we don't want to give it away, you've got corroborating evidence in the works from him?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes.
		And we're talking about bona fides of employment and things like that.
		He left in such a hurry that he didn't have time to really bring any records, but he's had friends now.
		He's actually called them at my behest, and they've gone to his apartment.
		And, you know, materials that will prove pay stubs from Caltech, things like that.
		So even if JPL were to electronically vanish him tomorrow, which they could easily do.
		When you call or I call and we try to find out his employment and they claim he never worked there, we will have on paper proof that in fact he did work there.
		So we're making those kind of moves.
		Let's back up and look at the larger picture.
		This is the reason why we need the grand jury.
		It's exactly this kind of evidentiary material, which is more proof that, in fact, we are not being leveled with.
		And frankly, I am very upset about this because it is so brazen and so blatant and so cavalier and so denigrating to the American people if this should prove to be an accurate story, which at this point, as I said, I really think if this guy is not for real, he deserves an Academy Award, Tom Hanks, move over, because every single nuance rings true.
		I could not find a false note.
		And Linda talked to him a long time.
		I talked to him for about half an hour.
		The poor guy is dead on his feet.
		He is staying with a friend who's fortunately a very, you know, someone that you really feel safe staying with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Who's going to take him to the airport tomorrow?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		One odd note he has been researching on his own now, because obviously when you trip over something like this, it spurs your curiosity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, of course.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		He went to the library and found one book called The Face on Mars, which of course is Randy Pozo's description of our own independent Mars investigation.
		And when I connected the dots, you know, I'm the dick Hogan in the book, he practically fainted.
		He said he never imagined anything like this.
		He never imagined that he'd ever be talking to, you know, I told him the scale of the audience that listens to you.
unidentified		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		He was blown away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, this is well he didn't know.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		This is a nice guy who just at the right place at the right time, or if you want to look at it another way, the wrong place at the right time.
		And I'm really thinking that we've got a very important lead.
		And let me say this.
		If anybody knows Kent, if anybody is friends with him or really believes in the Constitution, now is the time to fax Art or myself and to provide us with additional information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, now I'll get those fax numbers out.
		I just wanted to bring you on for a quick reaction.
		Richard, thank you so much.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Art.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, folks.
		We'll do an hour of open lines coming up.
		What a night, huh?

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