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April 10, 1998 - Art Bell

02:53:42

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Dr. J. Timothy Green - NDEs, OBEs, and Lucid Dreams

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	Welcome to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from April 10th, 1998.
	From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, good morning, whatever the case may be, wherever you may be across all these many prolific time zones.
	From the Tahitian and Hawaiian island chains out west, eastward to the Caribbean, The U.S.
	Virgin Islands.
	South, well into South America.
	North, all the way to the Poland.
	Worldwide on the Internet.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	Good morning, I'm Mark Bell.
	Lots and lots to do tonight.
	We will have a sort of a partial open line segment.
	We will have a guest in about an hour.
	Actually, we'll have a guest here in a few moments.
	I know a lot of you, and I'm certainly going to include myself in on that, are sick to death of El Nino.
	It has had effects from drenching the West Coast with houses falling into ravines and off hilltops.
	It has had effects across the country.
	It's warm where it should not have been, cold where it should not be.
	It actually, in many or most parts of the country, was the warmest winter on record.
	There was an F5.
	I don't know if you know what an F5 tornado is, but it is the very worst category through the South.
	We suffered over 30 dead.
	I think they're still counting.
	And I just got a fax from Stan Dale in Australia, down in Perth, Australia.
	And Stan said, hey Art, Well, I could read the facts, but basically, paraphrasing, it looks like El Nino may not be over.
	As a matter of fact, there may be some signs that it is once again building.
	and uh... as you know we've those of you who tuned in late the other night uh...
	we had a couple reasons we wanted to contact stan and uh... so i've
	got stan dale in australia
	on the phone and we will get to him shortly
	three-way the audio subscription service of coast to coast a m has a new name
	Coast Insider.
	You'll still get all the same great features for the same low price.
	The package includes podcasting, which automatically downloads shows for you, and the iPhone app.
	You'll also get our amazing download library of three full years of shows.
	That's over a thousand shows for you to collect and enjoy.
	If you're a fan of Coast, you won't want to be without Coast Insider.
	Visit coasttocoastam.com to sign up.
	Looking for the truth?
	You'll find it on Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
	This Osama Bin Laden story is perplexing to me.
	I just wish they'd come out one day and would tell us the truth about everything.
	I mean, because my brain tells me we got the guy.
	But then there's so many other episodes that are out there that tell me, you know, it's possible that we're being deceived.
	I can't rule that out entirely.
	I wish I could, but I can't.
	Streamlink, the audio subscription service of Coast to Coast AM has a new name, Coast Insider.
	You'll still get all the same great features for the same low price, just 15 cents a day when you sign up for one year.
	The package includes podcasting, which offers the convenience of having shows downloaded automatically to your computer or MP3 player, and the iPhone app with live and on-demand programs.
	You'll also get our amazing download library of three full years of shows.
	Just think, as a new subscriber, over 1,000 shows will be available for you to collect, enjoy, and listen to at your leisure.
	Plus, you'll get streamed and on-demand broadcasts of Art Bell's Somewhere in Time shows and two weekly classics.
	And as a member, you'll have access to our monthly live chat sessions with George Norrie and special guests.
	If you're a fan of Coast, you won't want to be without Coast Insider.
	Visit CostaCoastAM.com to sign up today.
	Weird stories on the radio?
	Must be Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
	You know, when I started doing this radio program, Jesse, half of the subjects I was really into.
	The paranormal, the unusual, ghosts and things like that.
	Yep.
	The conspiracy stories, you know, I was a little weary about these, other than the Kennedy assassination.
	And all of a sudden, I woke up.
	I simply woke up.
	Is that what happened with you two?
	Yeah.
	That's when I really started to say, what is going on here?
	And I started to truly then investigate 9-11.
	And today, I don't believe the government story of 9-11.
	Here's the three options.
	Either we knew about it and allowed it to happen, or we knew about it and participated in it, or these were the dumbest, food that could have ever been in charge of our country who
	could have all this pre-information and I started to think they knew what was going to happen
	they either a part of it or they allowed it to there's no doubt in my mind. Now we take
	you back to the night of April 10, 1998 on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	Well alright here's a guy who using US...
	naval satellite weather charts and reading ocean temperatures, called long before the scientists talked about it, called what was going on out in our oceans, talked about what was building in the oceans, saw the heat signatures in the ocean.
	It, of course, was El Nino that was building.
	He is Stan Dale.
	He's in Australia.
	And I'm afraid he's got news that you might not want to hear about El Nino, and we'll also talk a little bit about earthquakes, as we did last night.
	Stan, are you there?
	I am indeed.
	How are you going, Art?
	I'm doing just fine, but I'll tell you this.
	Here I am in the Southwest Desert, where every other day it has rained, and now we are bracing for yet another storm, which will come in probably while I'm on the air tonight.
	It's been relentless, Stan.
	I've never seen so much rain in my whole life.
	An F5 tornado in the south.
	A lot of people dead yesterday.
	El Nino has been a disaster for us.
	What's going on?
	Well, it's also been a disaster for us down here.
	The rain you're getting, we're not getting.
	It's been two years of drought, but this is really, really dry down here.
	What's happening is in the last Two weeks, the OTIS thermal map that we used from the Navy in Monterey have been showing that El Nino has, instead of continuing to decline and back off, has now turned around.
	And what we can see is that there's a massive heating of water over east of Japan.
	And it will take several months, I think, for this to hit the coast of the United States if it continues.
	But that's the beginning of an El Nino type event.
	Even off the coast of South America, kind of west of there around the equator, just south of the equator, the patterns are starting to turn around and get hotter in the sea surface temperature, which is similar type things what we saw when it started.
	But if this is the case, it means we're not going to back off of the El Nino effect far enough to enjoy the benefits of, you know, some normal weather.
	It looks like it's just going to stair step up into a really Super bad weather next time around.
	I have not been following El Nino through previous years.
	Is this very abnormal?
	In other words, to have an El Nino, to have it use up its strength, and then to have it or another building right behind it?
	Is that normal?
	No, that's not normal.
	Normally they have about a four-year cycle between them.
	Right.
	And then suddenly we had a couple back-to-back here, and the one that we're in now and just coming out of Is the highest recorded El Nino effect, the way they determine it anyway, the Southern Oscillation Index, it's the highest one we've had in recorded history.
	Well, you and I talked a little bit on the phone before you came on tonight, just for a moment, and you said you're in the middle of a move, you're going to have to move again, and it's because of the drought and the water situation there.
	What's going on?
	Well, in Australia, It's a very large country and a lot of it's desert.
	And we're over on the west side.
	And we've had two years of kind of drought.
	Not really bad drought here on the west, but more so in the northeast corner.
	Anyway, in keeping with what we've been talking about on our website with a lot of other folks, we're getting prepared for a number of natural and perhaps man-made disasters that are heading for everyone in the near future.
	So we were going to get a rural property where we could start Growing some of our own food and have our own water.
	We searched everywhere we could.
	North of here and east of here in West Australia.
	We even sunk some sample bores down in some of the properties we like.
	As far down as 100 feet to try to find water.
	We did get it.
	We were getting a pound of salt per gallon.
	Which is just too hard to drink.
	Did you say a pound of salt per gallon of water?
	Yeah.
	It was mucky kind of brown junk and You know, it's only good for sheep to drink.
	Nothing else could drink it.
	My God!
	A pound of salt for a gallon of water?
	That's insane!
	I don't know how that salinity would compare to the ocean, but it can't be far off.
	Well, I'm not sure.
	I can't remember the figures, but it's terrible stuff.
	And a lot of the farms that we visited, their dams were absolutely dry and cracked.
	You know, these mud-to-earth dams that you scrape out.
	We're dry and didn't look like they were going to get any for a while.
	And it's been, let's see, five months, I think, here since we've had a decent rain.
	It was four months before we even had a sprinkle anywhere.
	And, of course, everyone's been hanging out for water.
	Our Perth water supply, which is for a million people in the city here, will probably go on restriction if we don't have a break in this drought fairly shortly.
	They've already made a public announcement to stand by for water restrictions.
	So Holly and I thought, right.
	You know, you don't grow much of anything, hydroponics or otherwise, if you don't have some water.
	So we went to the Weather Bureau here for Australia and figured out, using some of their maps for 140 years of back information, and figured out which areas of the country, even in the worst droughts, had water at least underground that was drinkable.
	And we selected that area over in Victoria, which is 3,250 kilometers from where we are at the moment.
	So that's going to be a very, very big move for you.
	Tell me about it.
	We're up to our eyeballs in boxes already.
	Anyway, we believe in what we're doing enough to go ahead and change our circumstance like that.
	We've certainly been advising and talking with hundreds and hundreds of other people on our website and email who are doing similar things in the United States and Canada and other countries that are online in Europe.
	We're just kind of joining the rest of them.
	Well, I hate to be selfish about it, but here we are in the States.
	What would be, if you were to look for it, Stan, an equivalent relatively, I say relatively, safe spot in the U.S.
	or in Canada?
	Well, all I can say, I haven't run the figures for the United States because I haven't got the data, but I think that people, no matter where they live, Must try to figure out a way to get fresh water to drink when the mains go off or when the public water supply may not be available or may be contaminated with bacteria.
	If this heating continues, we're going to have upsurges of bacteria that we didn't have before in a lot of the water stuff because it will breed quicker.
	So, above all other things, find a place where you can have Fresh water and for each adult, you know a couple gallons a day or a gallon a day at least available and I know there are a number of people using silver Colloidal silver.
	Okay, that's that's one way to kill or to inhibit the bacterial growth We're talking to a chappy down here in Australia who owns a company that has just painted and released a modification to those silver or colloidal silver devices which makes it very easy for Very cheap to produce the water with even a solar recharger on your battery.
	So we're looking at ways to offer people, you know, ways to clean up their own water wherever they are.
	Because everyone won't be able to have a bore or, you know, a freshwater well.
	You don't want to live too close to major lakes, you know, like Shoreline or things like that, or rivers, because if the rain's over where you are continued, you'll see a lot more flooding.
	And if we have earthquakes, Large rivers and possibly some lakes will change their boundaries.
	You just have to use common sense.
	There's not going to be any place that's absolutely safe from everything that could or may hit us.
	The bottom line we've said to everybody is you can try to survive all the other and endure all the other disasters that may or may not happen, but if you don't have water you're not going to be alive to do it.
	Let's start at the bottom line, and that's fresh water.
	Can you give me an overall guess, Stan, at what is causing this incredible heating?
	In other words, for another El Nino to be building as this one was supposed to be winding down is just beyond reason.
	Why?
	Well, in my opinion, it's the sun itself.
	There's been a lot of data that we've been collecting from NASA and JPL and various other of study groups and universities who are analyzing data from the sun over the last 10 years.
	And in some wavelengths, there's been a 2 to 3% increase in solar output since 1988.
	And because of this, we're absorbing more energy down here on the earth.
	And because of the greenhouse effect and other things which are contributory to this, the effect is just mushrooming.
	And until the sun settles down, and it's certainly not settled at the moment, if you go up on the internet and look at the pictures that NASA have up there, or SOHO, or Lockheed, you will see tremendous, tremendous x-ray bursts of sunspot areas facing us right now.
	And, you know, it's only been three weeks since we had a supercronal mass ejection out of an area left of that, or west of that.
	People, by the way, should know, Stan, that with regard to the cycle, we have only just begun.
	We're going to be seeing a lot more sunspots, a lot more magnetic storms are going to be hitting us.
	As a matter of fact, they're quite concerned about our geosynchronous satellites in that regard.
	They are shielded, but we're liable to get hit with, they suspect, some pretty big stuff.
	In fact, I saw an article, Stan, comparing what's going on on the sun To El Nino.
	They said it was kind of like an El Nino on the sun, if you will, or from it.
	Right.
	Well, I'd agree with that.
	There's been two schools of thought about whether this cycle of sunspot activity would be greater than Cycle 19, which was the mother of all of them a couple cycles back.
	Some say it will be worse, some say it won't be, and that it will peter off.
	If it continues like it's doing now, I'm going to have to be in a camp that says it's going to get worse.
	The magnetic information, which is different than sunspots, the magnetic curve shows an increase in solar activity.
	And I think it will peak and eventually back off and return to good weather and stuff for us.
	But I personally think we're looking at about 7 to 12 years of bad weather associated with solar misbehavior.
	Well, if it continues to heat, I don't know whether you get a lot of reports about the weather here in the States or there in Australia, but I'm telling you, the tornado season, the violent weather season this year has been absolutely unbelievable.
	And I'm not even talking about the constant pounding of rain.
	You should see the desert where I live, Stan.
	It's turned green.
	It's really weird.
	Is that right?
	Yeah, oh, it's really weird.
	Yes, we've had too much rain.
	In 1958, we had a lot of tornadoes and bad weather during International Geophysical Year.
	Do you think that what you're experiencing now is more abnormal than that?
	I don't know if I've got a good frame of reference for it or not.
	I think this is the worst that I've seen in my adult life.
	Really bad.
	The question is, though, Some scientists are saying, Stan, this is just El Nino, relax everybody, it happens.
	And you're telling me that we've got something new building on the back of what we're experiencing right now.
	Well, I'm not trying to be an alarmist, but I didn't say anything until I was kind of sure that we have an increase.
	And we certainly do have an increase, which could continue.
	It may just be a A little hump on the curve, and it'll turn around and cool back off, like it has been doing.
	But this is the time of year that I usually watch for the thermal increases normally.
	And it's coming back at the moment, so all I can do is keep you posted from week to week as we see the trends.
	All right.
	One other thing I want to touch base with you on that is earthquakes.
	We've got a large number of people in the business of predicting earthquakes.
	A geologist, Jim Birkland, I had on the show last night.
	Jack Coles, who has sent information about tremendous spikes.
	There are people beginning to talk about a West Coast, U.S.
	earthquake pretty soon.
	Well, we're in the window, or one of the windows, for earthquake activity planetary-wide.
	I haven't done a short-term look like I normally do with the thermals to see what the earthquake stuff looks like for the next five days, but I am sure that the earthquake activity globally has been down 30-40% for the last five days, which indicates to me that something is building somewhere.
	You know, some fixes are, in fact, we already had one just 24 hours ago in the mid-Indian Ocean, I think.
	There's a couple of other places in the Kermadec Islands north of New Zealand.
	And these are signs of pressure releasing suddenly.
	All right, Stan.
	I'm going to break away at this point.
	I just wanted to get an update, and you sure did give us that.
	I really appreciate it, and we'll get back to you soon.
	We'll do a show soon, all right?
	Okay, all right.
	Sounds good.
	Take care now.
	Take care, my friend.
	That's Stan Dale in Perth, Australia.
	Not for long, though.
	We'll be back.
	You're listening to Art Bell's Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from April 10th, 1998.
	This is a presentation of the Coast to Coast AMX-AX.
	You won't have to think twice.
	She's pure as New York snow.
	She's got many days aside.
	It's too easy.
	She'll unheat you.
	How's Rebecca?
	Yes, I believe you.
	She's precocious.
	And she knows just what it takes to make a program.
	You've got to let her starve up.
	Stand by her side.
	You've got to let her day decide.
	She'll let you take her home.
	You're listening to Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from April 10th, 1998.
	Good morning, everybody.
	It's great to be here.
	At the top of the hour, J. Timothy Green, a psychologist on near-death experiences, OBEs, and such.
	One of my favorite all-time topics, as you well know.
	And kind of a different slant on things.
	All right.
	I'll move through a little bit of the news, and I do have quite a bit for you in a moment.
	will do some open lines too.
	I'll see you in a minute.
	has a new name.
	Coast Insider.
	You'll still get all the same great features for the same low price.
	The package includes podcasting, which automatically downloads shows for you, and the iPhone app.
	You'll also get our amazing download library of three full years of shows.
	That's over a thousand shows for you to collect and enjoy.
	If you're a fan of Coast, you won't want to be without Coast Insider.
	Visit coasttocoastam.com to sign up.
	Looking for the truth?
	You'll find it on Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
	This Osama Bin Laden story is perplexing to me.
	I just wish they'd come out one day and would tell us the truth about everything.
	I mean, because my brain tells me we got the guy.
	But then there's so many other episodes that are out there that tell me, you know, it's possible that we're being deceived.
	I can't rule that out entirely.
	I wish I could, but I can't.
	Now, we take you back to the night of April 10th, 1998, on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	Alright, um, let's see the news.
	Accord reached in Northern Ireland 30 years, 30 years after the violence began.
	There is now in place a comprehensive plan to end the fighting.
	It is a sweeping accord.
	The eight parties in the Northern Ireland Peace Talks approved that settlement after a 32-hour negotiating marathon.
	I hope it holds.
	There is a new report out in Washington that smoking cigars... Now, do you remember They kind of said that smoking a cigar is at least very much less harmful to you than smoking a cigarette.
	Now they're saying it's just as deadly as smoking cigarettes.
	And, moreover, the number of cigar smokers has risen 50% since 1993.
	You see, that's because people were told that it's a good alternative, smoke cigars.
	Now the people who swapped over quit smoking cigarettes and went to scars they're
	being told uh... you gotta quit it's just as deadly as cigarettes and
	so it goes on and on and on
	after touring the alabama devastation by helicopter vice president gore called the
	destruction of a tornado and related storms that killed now the count
	goes over forty in four southern states the worst he had ever
	scene it was a level five tornado
	It was horrible.
	And they are horrible.
	I used to hunt them, I know.
	On various quickening news bits, the French government today, this is from UBI, moved to combat an outbreak of what is being called MAD-B disease, which the scientific community says is killing Millions of honeybees in Western France?
	Mad bee disease, huh?
	To give you some idea, they report the phenomenon has drastically affected the region's bee population and dramatically reduced production of the area's farmed honey by 60 percent.
	That represents more than one-third of the total output in France.
	Mars News.
	Dr. Malin has responded on his website to the halving of the resolution, which Richard Hoagland told you about last night, and he's giving reasons or excuses, but does in fact admit that the photograph was half the starting resolution.
	That's very interesting.
	He said he wanted a wider field of view, and so they halved the resolution.
	He now admits that.
	Ever so interesting.
	In the last sentence of his conclusion, and now I speak of Professor Van Flanderen, on his analysis of the new images, Dr. Van Flanderen says, Nothing yet seen on our moon or any other solar system surface besides Earth suggests artificiality to a comparable degree.
	He finishes, listen, that is even acknowledging the bad quality of the so-called raw data.
	The so-called raw data.
	Send me the following email.
	You need to watch Discovery News tonight on the Discover Channel.
	They are discussing the fact that Florida's reefs are dying in two or three days.
	I said dying in two or three days from lesions.
	And so is the entire Caribbean.
	The show is on, as I write this to you, on the East Coast.
	And he suggests this to me because of what Ed Dames said.
	Actually, the title of the email is, Watch Discovery News Tonight, Art.
	Ed Dames is right about the oceans dying.
	And then just one more little item, and then we don't have a lot of time.
	We'll go to the phones.
	The Sounds from Hell clip.
	Somebody has apparently pulled something they regard as intelligible out of them.
	And there's a man saying, shemane, shemane, shemane, something like that.
	Cast your feasts.
	At this point he says, screams are very loud.
	Burn into my sleep.
	These kinds of things he's managing to dig out of the audio in the supposed or alleged sounds from hell.
	Other people claim that it's a sports stadium and various other things.
	That was Jimmy in Bakersfield, some kind of strange stuff he picked up in there.
	The sounds from Hell, from the Nine Mile Deep Hole, are available on my website.
	The re-scan of the Ghost Wolf, Archangel, or Sphinx, however you want to think of it, I look at it, I see a Sphinx.
	An angelic Sphinx.
	How about that?
	The new scans are up there, so go take a look.
	I think you'll find a lot more resolution, and with that additional resolution, I might add, unlike with the Mars face and the supposed greater resolution, it looks ever more like a face.
	Take a look!
	It's from the Rocky Mountains, and it's up on my website right now at www.artbell.com.
	All right, here we go.
	West of the Rockies, you are on the air.
	Good morning.
	Hey Art, how you doing?
	I'm doing fine.
	Listen, I've got a question for you.
	Last week, or the week before, I heard something about the Earth slowing down.
	Its rotation?
	Actually, El Nino did in fact slow the Earth's rotation, yes.
	Okay, well you know, you had Greg Brayden on the show.
	That's right.
	And his book talks about that.
	Yes.
	And then I noticed in one of your, you know, At the top of the hour news clips, later that same week, that NASA has launched a satellite probe to the sun.
	Well, we have a probe up there now called SOHO.
	Well, there was another one that they launched last week, and it got about two seconds of air time, and I'm just wondering if they've gone up to explore the magnetics of the sun.
	I don't know.
	It would be a good time.
	It certainly, as you heard Stan Dao suggest, is getting extremely active.
	And he believes the additional heating and radiation from the sun are now causing another El Nino to build right behind the one we just got.
	Okay, and that brings me to the second reason that I called last year when we were waiting for HaleBot to come through.
	Prior to its arrival, there was a Native American man doing some Hopi prophecies and he talked about a second El Nino that was coming and connected it with Some kind of a companion with Hale-Bopp that would be coming this year also.
	Do you remember who I'm talking about?
	I want to say his last name was Morningstar or something like that.
	Morningsky.
	Robert Morningsky, yes.
	Have you heard from him?
	Not recently, and I should call him, or he should call me, or fax me, or something, and I should get him on the air.
	I remember that prophecy, and that is interesting.
	That is very interesting.
	Yeah, I thought it was kind of an interesting parallel.
	All right, let me see what I can do.
	All right, thank you very much.
	It gets hard to follow all of this because events are occurring so rapidly.
	They really are occurring rapidly.
	Now, you pay attention when Stan Dale in Australia speaks.
	This guy called El Nino long before our scientists did on this program, I might add.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi, Art.
	Hello.
	Hi Dave, Colin from Northeast Kansas again.
	Hi Dave.
	Enjoyed the first part of the program.
	You were going to have Robert Ghost for Wolf on.
	I did.
	I'll bet I picked the one night to sleep in and missed him this week.
	Yeah, you missed him.
	What night was it so I could shoot myself?
	Oh, I don't remember.
	It was about a week.
	Ago.
	Oh.
	And he supplied us with photographs of... Oh, okay.
	I caught that one.
	I thought... Well, that's Ghost Wolf.
	But I thought someone had called in and asked if you were going to have him again and asked more questions.
	And I thought you'd said... No.
	No, no.
	If you caught that one, you caught his appearance.
	What we did do was I had... It took about a week for the photographs to get to me.
	And I re-scanned them.
	I see.
	One question.
	Nothing against NDEs and all that, but with all of the calamitous information that's feeding into you from Australia and from the Hopi prophecies and everything else, I was wondering if we might have more concentration on what us average Joes that are just the average blue collar guy out here with a family or no family and And the average income can do to find some place as you had asked the gentleman from Australia.
	That is safe?
	Or it's relatively safe?
	Yeah, because I mean like I got a 78 year old mother and we don't have a lot of money but we could move.
	A good place with a good water source is always Arkansas.
	They have a lot of caves, especially with the solar flares that Dave and everybody were talking about.
	They have a lot of limestone caves.
	Well, there's a lot of ways of looking at it, and the average Joe, like you, and me, and everybody else, one thing, there's only one thing we're all going to do.
	You know what that is?
	Well, I'm not quite sure, but I'll wait and let you tell me.
	Alright, and so I shall.
	We're all going to die.
	Whether you move from here to Arkansas, wherever you go, our mortal lifespan is extremely short.
	Very, very short.
	I mean, we are here, but a cosmic, even a blink of the eye does not do justice to the tiny little bit of time that we occupy this world.
	So, I think an overarchingly important question is whether or not Once we leave, and it won't be long, is that it?
	Is that all there is?
	Is it eternal blackness?
	Complete lack of consciousness?
	A complete lack of existence?
	Or do we go on?
	Now, whether or not this is a more important question than where a good water source would be, I don't know.
	But I know it's really important.
	At least it is to me.
	Buster the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Yeah, Mr. Bell, I think I've figured out what the government is.
	You have?
	Yeah, I think that they refuse to help people individually because they're too busy pulling wool over your eyes saying that they're helping everybody.
	Yeah, that's true.
	To me, that's like wanting to buy everybody a shovel, and maybe this guy doesn't want to be a ditch digger.
	Well, it's a little bit like that.
	That's exactly right.
	I really think it is.
	I wonder if they have a U.S.
	government lie department.
	I mean, somewhere they've got to make all this stuff up, right?
	Well, that's like all the stuff that they like toilet seats in that they spend an outrageous price for.
	Probably the same department, just a different area.
	Well, I was thinking of, next time my property tax is due, I was going to send them a Black & Decker power saw and tell them to keep the change.
	Well, in that case, write to me and I'll send you a file.
	That sounds good.
	I'll see you later.
	Don't do that.
	I mean, when you send taxing agencies, things like Black & Decker, PowerSaws, they don't respond well.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hi, how are you?
	I'm fine.
	How are you?
	Pretty good, I guess.
	Cool.
	What's on your mind?
	I've been wanting to get through to you for some time now.
	Let me turn the radio off here.
	Oh, good move.
	I hear something of a southern accent, I think, in your voice.
	Where are you calling from?
	I'm calling from Virginia.
	Good guess.
	I've been listening to you now for quite some time.
	Have you yet felt tinges of insanity closing in because of it?
	No tinges of enlightenment.
	It can go either way.
	I found myself the other night tuning in to you at one o'clock in the morning.
	I said, I'm going to listen to Art Bell for a few minutes and then I'm going to head off to bed.
	I said, I've got to get up early in the morning.
	Okay, I found myself at six o'clock in the morning turning you off.
	Because you were through.
	You were finished.
	You were over.
	Well, I feel some guilt about that.
	I understand that happens, and people write me really nasty letters about it.
	They really do.
	I mean, they don't expect to get involved in Hook, but somehow they do, and the next thing they know, the sun's coming up and they're in trouble, you know, because they've got to go to work.
	Oh, yeah.
	Hey, listen.
	I know all about that.
	Let me tell you that I absolutely love your show and listen to it quite frequently.
	I have been informed of a lot of things that I have wondered about and didn't know about, wasn't quite sure about.
	One of the main reasons that I'm calling is I'm wondering how in the world that I can gather some kind of information further in depth, on paper, from the screams from hell, from the deep caverns of the earth.
	That I heard the other night on your program.
	They were absolutely bone-chilling, if I might add.
	Well, some people found them that way.
	People reacted.
	It's really an interesting study, actually, the way people are reacting.
	Some people hear things in the voices.
	Some people laugh at it, but it's kind of a nervous laugh.
	Other people think it's a complete hoax.
	I frankly don't know.
	I was sent the facts.
	The story really did run.
	The Associated Press ran the story.
	The story ran In, uh, I think it was Sweden or somewhere or another.
	I've got it here.
	What I'll try to do is get the story on the website, or somebody can send me the Associated Press copy I had a couple of weeks ago, and I don't know what I've done with it, the original AP story.
	And we'll get it up on the website along with, of course, the sounds we've got up there now.
	How long are the actual sounds running?
	I mean, what... You know, I haven't timed it.
	It seems like it's about...
	It's probably about a minute or under a minute.
	Because I know last night you ran, well I guess the entirety of it was like 30 or 40 seconds.
	Yeah, there you go.
	Under a minute.
	Something like that.
	Sounds like an eternity, no pun intended.
	Yeah, yeah.
	I will say this.
	I have, and I know that you've got a full program ahead of you here.
	I do.
	I was wanting to just say and maybe admonish some of...
	your listeners and I know that dealing with the spirit world can sometimes be
	frightening and I know that there were some folks calling in the other night and I tried all.
	Oh, listen, I've got to break away because I'm going to the top of the hour news, but we're just about to deal with the spirit world.
	Stay right where you are.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from April 10th, 1998.
	to live a life without your love.
	Oh baby, don't leave me this way.
	I can't accept, I'll surely miss your tender kiss Don't leave me this way
	I can't accept.
	I surely miss your tender kiss.
	Don't leave me this way.
	Baby, my heart is full of love I desire for you Now come on down and do what you gotta do
	Your thoughts is this fire down in my soul Now can't you see it's burning, I can't control
	Come on, satisfy the need in me Only your loving can set me free
	Don't, don't you leave me this way Aka E I E I O
	Aka E I E I O Aka E I E I O
	Aka E I E I O Aka E I E I O
	Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight's program originally aired April 10th, 1998.
	Good morning.
	In a moment, J. Timothy Green, PhD, Dr. Green.
	We're going to be talking about near-death Experiences because that's how he began his quest and then he moved to OB ease and beyond We've got a lot of fertile ground to explore with dr. Green coming up in a moment.
	moments.
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	Visit coasttocoastam.com to sign up.
	now we take you back to the night of april tenth nineteen ninety eight on our
	girls somewhere in time now jay timothy green phd
	is a clinical psychologist in private practice in irvine california
	He's a leading authority on near-death experiences.
	Dr. Green published one of the very first studies documenting this phenomenon.
	A very large group of people.
	Since that time, he's been involved in transpersonal psychology in general, and more specifically, lucid dreaming, out-of-body experiences, and shamanism.
	He has mastered the art of lucid dreaming and has learned to induce out-of-body experiences from the sleeping state.
	He is currently involved in an advanced three-year program in shamanism taught by Michael Harner.
	He has been widely published and he is currently working on a book entitled Entrance into Light It should be published later this year.
	Dr. Green, welcome to the program.
	Well, thank you.
	It's a pleasure to be on your program.
	Doctor, I think there are two overarchingly important questions for human beings.
	One is, where did we come from?
	And the other is, where are we going?
	Uh-huh.
	Everything in between is a short little cosmic blink.
	We're not here very long.
	I would agree with that assessment.
	So, a lot of what I do on the air concentrates on where we came from.
	We've had great arguments about that, but equally important is where we're going.
	When we die, which we are all presently destined to do, unless there is some great advance shortly, where, Doctor, do you think we go?
	Well, if you talk to people who have had near-death experiences, they will say that you go into an incredible realm that is filled with light and love.
	Which to them provides compelling evidence that they survive physical death.
	Do you believe them?
	Absolutely.
	I should point out that the first person to coin the term near death experience was Raymond Moody in a book called Life After Life in 1975.
	I read his book in 1977.
	In 1980 a psychologist named Katherine at the University of Connecticut followed up Raymond Moody's study.
	with a more scientifically sound study.
	I had read those two books, but I was still skeptical enough to want to go out and interview people personally and to hear their stories and to kind of do my own clinical interview.
	In doing so, I became completely convinced that these people have had a profound spiritual experience.
	I should say this too.
	I do not know of any other researcher who has bothered to take the time to go out and talk to these people who have not come away With the conclusion that this is indeed a profound spiritual experience.
	I have to agree with you.
	I talked to Ray Moody, Dr. Moody, a couple of days ago as a matter of fact.
	I'm going to have him on again shortly.
	So you believe it's real?
	Absolutely real.
	Absolutely real.
	No doubt in my mind after speaking to hundreds, literally hundreds of these people, That they are a cross-section of the adult population, actually in the child population, and that they are in no way some type of disturbance, psychological or physiological disturbance.
	These people report a profound spiritual experience, and I think the best evidence of that, of the fact that this is indeed a Truly a spiritual experience is that what has come, what we've found out since the beginning is that these experiences do not occur only when a person is close to death.
	And that's something that I have been trying to bring to the fore and shed light on.
	In other words, you're suggesting that there are other ways to get there other than Absolutely.
	For instance, the International Association for Near Death Studies, way back in 1980 when they were forming, and this was the group whose mission is to study near death experiences, they started receiving letters from people.
	All of the letters said basically the same thing, which was, I had an experience like the one you're describing, but I was not near death.
	Now, at the time, they were trying to carve out a field of investigation, and they couldn't include anything, so they made a conscious decision.
	to include only death experiences.
	But if you, for instance, an out-of-body experience is one of the things that is associated with a near-death experience.
	But if you go to the literature on out-of-body experiences, you will find that only 10% of out-of-body experiences occur when a person is near death.
	We're going to rapidly move forward, but before we do, and away from NDEs, There really are a couple questions I have.
	For example, not everybody who's had an NDE has had a necessarily good experience.
	There's a study underway right now that's looking at people who have had terrible experiences going on in Britain.
	And now it's not as easily researched because if you have a hellish You're not very likely to come back and start telling the world about it.
	Right.
	That is the problem with that type of study, and they have studied that here in the United States, and they find that a very small percentage of people are willing to admit to having had a hellish experience.
	It's less than 1%, but your point is very well taken, is that if you've had a very bad experience, you're probably less likely to tell anyone about it.
	Are there good analogies in your work?
	In other words, most people experience the light and the warmth and the love and the relatives and all the rest of it.
	Is that what we think of as heaven?
	Is that heaven?
	Well, I think that that's what many people have described as heaven.
	Yes, I certainly think that this is one spiritual experience that people have described throughout recorded history.
	There actually are a number of good books now by especially professors of religious studies who have gone back and studied and shown that this experience is not something that's new or unique or the result of modern day resuscitation techniques, but this experience has been described throughout history.
	How do you rule out physiological explanations?
	There are doctors Many prestigious doctors who have gone on things like 60 Minutes in 2020 and they have said, look, when a person begins dying, the brain begins dying from the outside moving inward.
	So the experiencer would see a bright spot of light toward the center of the brain and various drugs are being pumped into the body.
	The body's defense, I suppose, or a way to get you through the dying experience, and to make it easier for you.
	I don't know exactly what the chemicals are, but that is the physiological explanation they give for the MDE.
	How do you rule that out?
	Okay, well, one thing is people have said maybe this is a massive rush of endorphins.
	Sure.
	Which is a naturally occurring opiate in the body.
	Now, that is a reasonable hypothesis, but it's also a very testable hypothesis.
	You could actually get a number of people in a laboratory and give them endorphins and see whether they report this.
	And I think that if you gave them a massive amount of endorphins, they'd say it was a very pleasant experience, but they would not say they had a near-death experience.
	The other thing people have said is maybe this is temporal lobe epilepsy.
	It would be very easy to put people in two groups, those who were known to have had temporal lobe epilepsy and those who were not, and ask them who had near-death experiences.
	These people come up with these physiological explanations, but no one has ever taken the time to try to prove it.
	Let me point out one other thing, and I think this is the strongest argument against the Some kind of dying brain hypothesis is that these experiences have been shown to occur in people who are not near death quite frequently.
	And I think that that in itself argues very strongly against any kind of dying brain.
	Let's try this Avenue.
	What does it argue for in terms of what happens to us when we die?
	Whether it is a traditional Christian, you know, sort of having an angel floating around up there type thing, or whether we are reincarnated, whether we come back again and again, or, you know, what the final disposition is, as it were.
	Well, I have no idea, because the testimony of near-death experiences is obviously in the beginning stages of any apparent afterlife.
	Quite frankly, I think that if I was just going to comment based on what I've heard from people who've had near-death experiences, I really couldn't give you a final outcome.
	Okay, then how about this?
	One of my best friends is Daniel Brinkley.
	Right.
	There are certain things that I know to be completely, absolutely, 100% true about Daniel.
	One of them is that he has a continuing, though fading, psychic gift which uh... big began most strongly after his first andy e
	and still can be proven again and again today i mean daniels for real
	he acquired some sort of psychic ability following the nbd
	uh... how many people that you have interviewed uh... experience something similar perhaps to a lesser
	degree but a a psychic ability they did not previously have
	It's very common.
	Actually, there were three very good studies in the early 70's, one by Bruce Grayson, one by a man in CORE, and one by Kenneth Ring, all of which showed that you are significantly more likely to have psychic abilities, such as Daniel has, following a near-death experience.
	Any physiological explanation for that?
	Are they able to do CAT scans or something or another and determine, oh my, look, activity in a part of the brain we haven't seen before?
	Melvin Morris, who is a pediatrician in the Seattle area and did a great deal of study on children, near-death experiences in children, has postulated that the right temporal lobe is the seat of Or the area of the brain that mediates this.
	Just like, for instance, the left temporal lobe mediates language.
	So you have to have an intact left temporal lobe to be able to speak correctly.
	And he has said that he believes that there is this area deep inside the right temporal lobe that is stimulated.
	It's not that it's the cause, but it is the underlying mediating aspect of the brain that mediates this transcendental experience.
	Quite frankly, there is a great deal of evidence in other areas.
	For instance, people who are shamans are really people who have mastered this art of ecstasy.
	In other words, they are someone who has learned to be able to go in and out of their body at will and with a purpose.
	And a lady who I know named Sandra Ingraman has written two excellent books called Soul Retrieval and Welcome Home, allowed herself to be hooked up to EEG machines.
	Right.
	And they found that she had a definite increase in theta waves in this particular area.
	Excuse me?
	Theta waves?
	Theta waves, which are kind of just before sleep.
	This is your kind of drowsy and falling into sleep.
	So, she had a definite increase in her right temporal lobe in theta waves.
	Would it be true then, you know, I'm no brain surgeon, but would there be, by necessity, new neural connections that would be made to allow that portion of the brain to become actively involved?
	Well, I'm not a neurologist either, and I really don't know the answer to that.
	Okay.
	One would almost imagine that would have to occur, but who knows.
	So anyway, the bottom line is, you are convinced this is absolutely real, not some wish, some hope, that there is more to us than we appear to be physically in the short time we're here.
	There's all kinds of evidence that shows that that's not true.
	For instance, People who have near-death experiences will quite often say that they see dead relatives and friends during their experience.
	That's right.
	Now, Melvin Morris went and talked to children.
	Now, if you asked a child who would they want to see if they died, they would probably say, I would like to see my mother and father.
	Right.
	We have never found a child who has said they saw their mother and father during a near-death experience unless their mother and father were dead.
	Oh, my.
	You're right.
	That's very interesting.
	How wide is that study?
	Melvin Morris?
	He studied hundreds of children.
	But they saw grandparents?
	They would see grandparents.
	They would see siblings who had died.
	They would see pets.
	But they would never say that they saw anyone who was still alive.
	And if this was just some type of hope or wish fulfillment or something like that, you would expect children to say that, well, I saw my mother and father.
	Absolutely.
	We don't see that.
	We have records of people who saw someone during their near-death experience and they did not know that the person had died.
	So in other words, they came back and they said, I saw Uncle Charlie and the last time they knew, no one had told them that Uncle Charlie had died.
	Right, these would seem pretty good proofs all right.
	Another thing that NDE experiencers report, Daniel certainly did, was a life review.
	Correct.
	A life review in which you experience that which you've inflicted on other people, good or bad.
	A life review is usually described as like a three-dimensional reliving of your entire life.
	So in other words you see and people will say it actually happens very quickly and yet at the same time paradoxically they have as much time as they want to look at each frame of this like kaleidoscopic image of their lives.
	And they also are able to see which aspects of their lives were good and which were bad It's as if they're making the judgment on their own.
	How common is that?
	That's not quite as common.
	It's about 10% of people who have near-death experiences will report a life review.
	So it is not one of the more common aspects of a near-death experience.
	What about those who have experienced NDEs?
	How then does it change their lives?
	In the case of Danyan, he went from being a true bastard to a person who now helps people
	understand the nature of dying.
	He does hospice work.
	He's for real.
	So, that's a 180-degree change.
	Is that typical?
	Very typical.
	I have never spoken to or even heard of anyone who has had a deep near-death experience who has not said, first and foremost, I am no longer afraid of death.
	And when they say this, this is not some type of superficial reworking of how they hold it.
	People who have had a deep near-death experience People are convinced in their own mind that they will survive physical death and they look upon death kind of the way you or I would look upon coming home after an extended stay in a foreign country.
	I mean, they really look forward to it.
	You know, you are so correct.
	Daniel was in the process of dying of several brain aneurysms and I flew back and I was with him and you should have heard the guy.
	Yeah.
	He was saying, look, no problem.
	Don't worry about it.
	I know what's coming.
	I'm not afraid.
	And he wasn't.
	I have a couple of friends over here who had near-death experiences one day, and they were smoking.
	I said, hey, you guys should quit smoking.
	And they laughed at me.
	They really do not care.
	Now, I'm particularly interested in that, because I am a smoker.
	You say they laughed at that, huh?
	They laughed at it because they're absolutely unafraid of dying.
	Oh, that's remarkable.
	All right, Doctor.
	Hold on.
	We're here at the bottom of the hour.
	Maybe I'll think of it in a whole new way.
	Good morning, everybody.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Dr. Green is with us.
	He'll be right back, as will I. You're listening to Art Bell's Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from April 10, 1998.
	This is a presentation of the Coast to Coast AM concert band.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from April 10th, 1998.
	J. Timothy Green, PhD, Dr. Green, is a clinical psychologist who began researching MDEs a long time ago.
	And we're about to move from them, but not really, into ways to achieve the same sort of I don't know, uh, altered state.
	I wonder if that's the right word.
	Probably not.
	Anyway, you can do it without nearly dying.
	We'll tell you about that in a moment.
	The weather is bad.
	That's an understatement.
	And there was Sandeo saying, uh, he's seeing signs of another building, El Nino, right behind this one.
	Isn't that just ducky?
	Weird stories on the radio?
	Must be Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
	You know, when I started doing this radio program, Jesse, half of the subjects I was really into.
	The paranormal, the unusual, ghosts and things like that.
	The conspiracy stories, you know, I was a little weary about these, other than the Kennedy assassination.
	And all of a sudden, I woke up.
	I simply woke up.
	Is that what happened with you two?
	Yeah.
	That's when I really started to say, what is going on here?
	And I started to truly then investigate 9-11.
	And today, I don't believe the government story of 9-11.
	Here's the three options.
	either we knew about it and allowed it to happen, or we knew about it and participated in it,
	or these were the dumbest buffoons that could have ever been in charge of our country
	who could have all this pre-information.
	And I started to think they knew what was gonna happen.
	They either are a part of it or they allowed it to.
	There's no doubt in my mind.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from April 10th, 1998.
	♪♪ Back now to Dr. Green.
	Dr. Greene, I should ask you right away, do you have a website of any sort up?
	I don't have a website, but I do have an email that people could email you.
	Yes.
	Oh, excellent.
	All right, fire away.
	It is josephiverdyjos, P as in Paul, E as in Edward, same word V as in Victor, E-R-D as in David, E, at AOL.com.
	All right.
	I guess in trying to understand the nature of all this, I've had a number of guests and my audience I think is pretty well aware of what an OBE is.
	They're also aware of the fact that I have never done it.
	I have come into this sleep paralysis point.
	I've been there, done that, but it just scares the hell out of me.
	I always jerk myself back.
	If you are afraid of it, that's going to be the biggest barrier that you have to actually having an experience.
	If you have had this sleep paralysis, you're very, very close to having an out-of-body experience from the sleep state.
	Let me say something.
	The best way to understand this entire issue is to use the concept of ecstasy.
	Ecstasy is a word that comes from the Latin ecstasis, which means to stand outside of oneself.
	So understood correctly, ecstasy is the experience of finding your conscious awareness outside of your physical body.
	Now this occurs when people are near death, in a near death experience.
	It occurs also during a lucid or conscious dream and that is simply a dream in which you at some point during the dream become aware that you are dreaming and many Conscious or lucid dreams take on transcendental aspects that are quite common and quite similar to near-death experiences, as they should because they are both experiences of ecstasy.
	The third experience of ecstasy is an out-of-body experience.
	Finally, the highest form of ecstasy is that which you find in shamanism because a shaman is a person who has mastered the art of ecstasy and is able to do it at will and with purpose.
	So all four, and this is what I've really been trying to bring out in the things that I have written, is that these really are the same underlying phenomenological experience, but they happen at different times.
	How are you able to document that an OBE, for example, is in the same realm as an NDE?
	In other words, do people Yes.
	Actually, there's a wonderful study by two psychiatrists at the University of Kansas, and their book is called With the Eyes of the Mind.
	They did a very large study of people who reported out-of-body experiences.
	One thing they found is that the average person who reports an out-of-body experience is pretty typical of the average American.
	In most ways.
	The other thing that they found is that about a quarter of out-of-body experiences start to take on transcendental features.
	For instance, people start going down a tunnel, seeing lights, seeing dead relatives and friends, having this wonderful sense of peace, calm and painlessness that is described so often by people who have near-death experiences.
	Ecstasy, an interesting term for it.
	For whatever reason that you're out of your body, you're experiencing ecstasy.
	You're experiencing ecstasy as I'm defining it.
	Usually when we think of ecstasy we think of it in emotional terms.
	But the ancients used the word ecstasy when they were thinking of the out of body experience.
	It's a very interesting thing.
	Ninety-five percent of cultures believe in out-of-body experiences that they occur sometime either during sleep or during trauma or something.
	In our culture up until the last couple of decades, anybody who said they had an out-of-body experience was probably until they were crazy.
	Yet it happens very, very frequently.
	Probably somewhere between 1 in 10 and 1 in 4 people during the course of their lifetime will have an out-of-body experience.
	1 in 20 people will say that they can have out-of-body experiences at will, which is an absolutely amazing thing.
	Have you done it?
	Well, what I did, I learned the art of lucid dreaming, which is you become conscious within the dream state.
	And now it took me three months really of studying.
	Okay, I don't even understand that.
	You become conscious within the dream state.
	In other words, you're dreaming and something happens in the dream and suddenly you say, oh, I am dreaming.
	And you can become as conscious as you are in your everyday life and yet you are suddenly in this dreamscape.
	Which is, look for all intents and purposes real.
	You can touch things, you can walk around, you can fly around.
	You are as conscious as you are in your normal everyday life.
	In every sense of consciousness?
	Correct.
	Everything you can think logically, you can decide to do things, you can decide not to do things, and the entire time you know That your body is laying somewhere asleep.
	Are you aware of all your surroundings as much as we are right now?
	Absolutely.
	In the physical?
	Many people who have lucid dreams will say that it's so real, it's very difficult to even believe that they're dreaming.
	Actually, I had the other night a dream which seemed so real, I couldn't believe that I was dreaming.
	And this is very common, but the point is during a conscious dream you are having an experience of your conscious awareness outside of your physical body.
	Now many people after, and this has been my experience, after about 18 months of having many, many lucid dreams, I started having out of body experiences from the sleep state.
	Spontaneous.
	Spontaneously.
	And there's like a natural progression where you start to have dreams and lucid dreams and out-of-body experiences from the dream state.
	So then this begins happening more and more spontaneously.
	Boy, I don't know why.
	It's scary for me.
	Now, most of the people I've interviewed said, oh, it's silly.
	There's no danger.
	Absolutely.
	You do, huh?
	There's absolutely no danger.
	You see, I believe that you could teach anyone to have a lucid dream and an out-of-body experience.
	And I have started to do that because I really believe that this is a legitimate therapeutic modality for many, many people.
	But what you have to do with some people is work with them a little bit.
	For instance, as you said, if you have any fears around this, it's not going to happen.
	The fears, I think, are a natural thing, my God, for anybody who likes To be in control.
	Right.
	To yield control completely.
	To allow this paralyze.
	And then you hear this loud buzzing sound.
	Right.
	I've gone there, believe me.
	But it is so frightening.
	There's no way that I can let go of it.
	I intentionally yank myself back from it.
	Usually I startle myself.
	And I'm back.
	Thank goodness.
	If you could do some work around that fear and relax and allow yourself to have the experience once, that would really get you over that fear.
	For instance, the other thing that happens to many people, and this is what really kept me for a long time from having experiences, is a belief system.
	I believed that other people had these experiences, but I didn't believe it would ever happen to me.
	It wasn't until I started having lucid dreams and out of body experiences that, in retrospect, I was able to see how much that belief system was interfering with me being able to actually have the experience.
	Alright, you're a clinical psychologist.
	You have published on these things.
	Now, your peers read this material.
	Correct.
	What do they say?
	Well, it's fascinating to me because there is a very small group of people who are very, very interested in this.
	Yes.
	And if you do bring it up to colleagues, they'll say that's interesting and then they pretty much just kind of...
	I don't know what they do with it, but I believe it's the absolutely most fascinating thing happening in psychology right now.
	Oh, I agree.
	Have you been ridiculed because of it?
	I'm sure people say things behind my back, but I've never had anybody say anything to my face.
	I've had people disagree with me, but I've never been censured or I've never suffered professionally because of this.
	But it is really when you start to talk about this, you really need to address the general population because professionals are very loathe to get involved or be associated with this.
	Are these the same realms then?
	From lucid dreaming to out of body to near death, are they all the same realm?
	And if so, what does that tell us about Well, I do think that they are the same realm.
	What it tells me, and I think it's very important to understand this from a psychological level, is that if you can somehow stop or interrupt the functioning of your ego, you can actually be introduced into this realm that people have always called supernatural or spiritual.
	Now let me point out, this can happen during a near-death experience, but it can also happen during what I would call a surrendering of the ego.
	The term I like the best is ego sacrifice, because the word sacrifice comes from the Latin sacrificer, which means not to give something up, but to make sacred.
	So if somehow you are able to sacrifice ego long enough and completely enough, You should come into contact with direct spiritual experiences.
	Now, having said that, it is extremely difficult for the average person to give up their ego.
	You betcha.
	For instance, in Eastern philosophy, they say that you have to meditate for many, many, many, many, many years to do this, and the vast majority of Americans are not willing to do that.
	What I think is very interesting is that there is a period of time during which we all give up our ego.
	Let me point something else out.
	From Freud on up to present day psychoanalytic theorists all are in agreement that the ego is nothing more than a mental construct.
	It's just an interwoven set of beliefs, ideas, perceptions, memories.
	The other thing that they all agree on is that the ego has to be functioning To have any existence.
	In other words, if it is not functioning, it ceases to exist.
	As I was saying before, it's very difficult to get the ego to stop functioning.
	From the moment we wake up in the morning, we're talking to ourselves, we're taking in perceptions from the external environment, and our ego is functioning.
	When we fall asleep at night, we all, in a sense, die to our ego.
	Let me tell you what I mean by that.
	We stop, our thought processes start to slow down and they finally end.
	We stop taking in perceptions from the external world and finally we can't hear or see anything.
	Our muscles start to relax and finally during the stage of sleep during which we are dreaming, as you have said, your muscles are actually paralyzed.
	So psychologically and physically, during sleep, the ego has been effectively neutralized and that is the easiest The most accessible way for people to begin to have these experiences.
	You can teach people to have lucid dreams usually within three months.
	After a number of lucid dreams, many people will report having had out of body experiences.
	That's the most accessible way of beginning this.
	I am firmly convinced that anybody can learn this.
	I'm also firmly convinced that it is a viable, therapeutic modality.
	Let me just explain that a little bit.
	Alright.
	As you go through life, the first half of life is all about becoming a person, becoming an ego.
	So people get through high school and they go to work or college and they get married and they raise a family and they go out and work.
	It's all about becoming a person.
	Now somewhere in mid-life, the tables turn.
	And what we don't normally understand is that now it's about giving up the ego.
	The type of therapy that somebody past mid-life needs is not an ego building therapy.
	If you go to most therapists, any problem, they will assume that there is a problem in your ego.
	They need to find out what that is and to fix it.
	People in their 40s and their 50s, they know who they are.
	Right.
	They don't need a psychologist to tell them who they are.
	So what I am interested in is not an ego-building therapeutic modality, but one that goes beyond the ego.
	And that's when you start to get into these fascinating, ecstatic experiences.
	would you suggest uh...
	and not so much as a crushing the ego or eliminating it but
	that sort of no passing it by learning how to uh...
	passed by it into another
	absolutely never did It's not that you want the ego to die or to go away.
	You need the ego to be a functioning member of society.
	Even if you were a saint you would need an ego just to kind of get yourself around and things like that.
	What it is is more of seeing the ego in proper perspective.
	Most of us think our ego is our all and everything.
	The analogy that I use sometimes is thinking of yourself as a very patriotic American and then being up in a space capsule and seeing Earth from space and realizing that the Earth is really just one, that we're all together.
	And actually, this has happened to a number of astronauts, and they come back with a whole different perspective.
	Now, they still are Americans.
	Actually, though, there's another side to it.
	Doctor, I have interviewed a lot of astronauts, U.S.
	astronauts, and a lot of them have experienced broken marriages.
	A lot of them have turned to booze.
	A lot of them have come to all kinds of trouble and psychological harm as a result of being out there.
	That's fascinating to me.
	The point I was trying to make is that you don't want to lose your ego.
	You certainly do not want to destroy it, but you do want to see it in a different perspective.
	Learning how to sort of give it up for the moment.
	Absolutely.
	To be able to go in and out of that would be absolutely the best thing you could do for Just imagine you are an individual who has gotten a diagnosis that you know is going to shorten your lifespan.
	Now, that type of person would quite often go to a psychotherapist, and the best thing that you could do, or that I could do, is teach them the art of lucid dreaming.
	After a period of time, they'll start having ecstatic experiences.
	Is that what you do?
	If somebody comes to you, they've received a diagnosis of terminal something or another?
	I believe that if they're interested in doing that, I believe that that's the most valuable thing that I can do for them.
	See, if I see somebody in psychotherapy, I can help them during the hour, but if I can teach them the art of lucid dreaming, I can give them something that they can use for the rest of their life.
	That in some ways goes beyond Daniel's hospice work.
	He tells them what's there.
	You lead them to a path to experience what's there for themselves.
	Absolutely.
	Doctor, hold on.
	We're at the top of the hour.
	You've got a good long break.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from April 10th, 1998.
	This is a song that I wrote in the early days of the lonely night.
	I wrote it in the early days of the lonely night.
	You take a trip to the city lights.
	You take the long way home.
	You take the long way home.
	You never see what you want to see.
	Forever playing to the gallery.
	You take the long way home.
	It's a long way to go.
	When you're up on the stage, it's so unbelievable.
	Oh, I don't care at all.
	I may adore you.
	But then you're wanting to take your blues with brutality.
	Oh, brutality.
	Oh, I'm so scared I don't know you, I may adore you If anyone seems to think you're losing your privacy
	Oh, it's a family, with no way out Oh, yeah
	Oh, yeah Oh, yeah
	Can you feel that you must be calm, but you have to be Oh, you have to be
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from April 10th, 1998.
	We're talking about NDEs.
	We're talking about out-of-body experiences and lucid dreaming.
	And I'm gonna, one more time, try and pin down exactly what lucid dreaming is.
	We'll go from there.
	With Jay Timothy Green, PhD, a clinical psychologist in Irvine, California.
	And he says all of this is absolutely real.
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	Weird stories on the radio?
	Must be Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
	You know, when I started doing this radio program, Jesse, half of the subjects I was really into.
	The paranormal, the unusual, ghosts and things like that.
	The conspiracy stories, you know, I was a little weary about these, other than the Kennedy assassination.
	And all of a sudden, I woke up.
	I simply woke up.
	Is that what happened with you two?
	Yeah.
	That's when I really started to say, what is going on here?
	And I started to truly then investigate 9-11.
	And today, I don't believe the government story of 9-11.
	Here's the three options.
	Either we knew about it and allowed it to happen, or we knew about it and participated in it, or these were the dumbest food that could have ever been in charge of our country who
	could have all this pre-information and I started to think they knew what was
	going to happen they either a part of it or they allowed it to there's no doubt
	in my mind now we take you back to the night of April 10th 1998 on Art Bell's
	somewhere in time all right dr. green welcome back again
	Thank you.
	I want to roll through this one more time, because while I do understand NDEs, I've talked to and interviewed so many people, and I think I understand OBEs, this lucid dreaming, I don't understand as well.
	Now, this means you're asleep, you're having a dream, and somehow you're able to bring yourself to a state You said full consciousness, in the middle of the dream, and continue the dream.
	Correct.
	And actually, there were reports for literally hundreds of years of this phenomenon, and no one was able to prove it until the late 1970s.
	Two researchers, Alan Worsley in England and Stephen LaBerge at Stanford, were both able to prove You can both be asleep and conscious at the same time.
	The way they were able to do that was they put people in a sleep lab and they have monitors on your eyes.
	Now as I said before, during the period of sleep in which dreams occur, almost all of your body's muscles are paralyzed, but your eyes are not.
	So people would go into their dream, they would become lucid or conscious, and then they would give a set of eye Muscle movements.
	In fact, I think the first one Stephen LaBerge spelled out in Morse Code, Stephen.
	And that was the first time anyone was able to prove scientifically that you can actually be conscious while you're dreaming.
	Oh no, that's really interesting.
	Let me stop you right there.
	You said, in other words, they are able to fully determine that you are in a sleep state.
	Absolutely.
	Approvable, right?
	It's been proven, it's been documented, there's no controversy.
	And you're telling me that he was able to tap out with his eyelids his name to prove that he was in some sort of conscious state as well as a sleep state?
	He's sleeping and he becomes conscious within the dream and then what he would do is in the dream move his eyes back and forth And tap out Morse code, left, right, left, left, right, right, whatever it is.
	And he was able to prove this and other researchers have been able to document it and now there is no controversy that this is not only an experience of being conscious during dreaming, but it's also a profound altered state of consciousness.
	Now, okay, I think that I understand what an NDE is.
	We've had a million descriptions.
	I understand what an OBE is.
	People are able to go to different places and possibly even move through time.
	But now, lucid dreaming.
	Is this a state in which you are able to manipulate and choreograph your own What are you doing when you're doing this?
	You can do just about anything that you choose to do.
	People use their lucid dream states in a variety of different ways.
	For instance, a friend of mine became lucid the other night and she decided to write out a paper, which she did.
	Then she wrote it out the next day and turned it in and got an A. Many people, for instance, We'll do some type of creative activity, but my fascination is that some of these experiences, these lucid dreams, are profound spiritual experiences, some of them not unlike near-death experiences.
	For instance, I had a group of people, colleagues and friends, who met over a five-year period and many of us learned to have lucid dreams and collectively We were able to document all of the components that are usually associated with a near-death experience during the lucid dream state.
	In other words, many of us had out-of-body experiences.
	Many of us saw dead relatives and friends.
	One lady had a past life review.
	A lot of people found themselves going through tunnels.
	All of these components that are usually associated with People who are near death are also found in the lucid dream state.
	Okay, so again, NBEs, OBEs, lucid dreaming, all into the same realm.
	Right.
	Now, I'm going to take you a little bit out on a branch here.
	Do we have, in your view, souls?
	The question was, do we?
	In your opinion, have souls?
	Do we have souls?
	That's right.
	Yes, I would say we do.
	I would say that there is a part of us that survives physical death, if that's your... That's my question.
	Alright, okay, we have souls.
	Is that soul, when we're out of body, or lucid dreaming, or having an NDE, is that soul what has left the body?
	See again, it depends on how you define soul.
	What I would say is that during all of these experiences, part of your conscious awareness, part of that which makes you aware that you are you, leaves and is experienced outside of your physical body.
	So the answer is more or less yes?
	What I would say is your consciousness, yes.
	Is your consciousness your soul?
	Well, I guess it just goes back to how you wanted to find soul.
	Okay, I guess it does.
	But that which leaves our body when we die and survives physical death.
	I think that that is what people throughout history have described as your soul, yes.
	Okay, then I'm going to hit you with a couple of hard questions here.
	And they are as follows.
	Here's somebody who's faxing.
	Art, I have to vote with you on the side of personal fear.
	When faced with the aspect of loss of control.
	Plus, who are you going to run into out there?
	I think I could work through the control issues, but what about those boogeymen?
	Now, there are many, many people who have moved into the realms that you have talked about who have encountered non-human entities.
	Well, I'll say this.
	For instance, my teacher, Michael Harner, who has 40 years of experience in shamanism, says he has never found evil in these realms.
	Never found evil?
	He has found that there are some wandering souls that can be troublesome, but to the person in fact, what I would say is if you are ever out of your body and you become scared or you come into contact with anything you do not want to be in
	contact with, you can immediately go back into your body.
	You simply will yourself back into your body.
	Here's one other for you and this has been a real stumper.
	There are a lot of people who die in their sleep.
	How do we know where they were and what they were doing when they died?
	I'm not sure I understand the question.
	Alright, put another way.
	People like yourself consistently say there is not danger in this.
	How do we know that a lot of people who have died in their sleep didn't meet up with the danger and just can't come back to tell us about it?
	Well, there's no way to know that, but if you had a group of people For instance, who were having out-of-body experiences or lucid dreams on a regular basis and they stopped coming back, then I think you have cause for concern.
	We have, for instance, Robert Monroe was a man who just died recently, but he had out-of-body experiences over a 40-year period.
	Never, ever, ever had a problem and died of old age.
	As a matter of fact, I was very honored to have interviewed him before he passed away.
	I spent some time at his ranch too and so he is an example of someone who had repeated out of body experiences and he did have some that were not very nice where he met up with things that he did not particularly like.
	But he suffered no physical or psychological mishaps over a 40 year period.
	A priest.
	His name is Father Malachi Martin.
	He is the exorcist.
	He's the real McCoy.
	Is possession real?
	Yes, I believe it is.
	You believe it is?
	Uh-huh.
	Is possession possible when you are out of your body?
	That's a good question and I don't believe it is unless you somehow are leaving yourself open.
	So certainly you could, if you were afraid of that, you could do some type of prayer or ritual to keep your body safe while you are out of it.
	But the people who do have out of body experiences repeatedly, for instance Robert Munro who I just spoke about, don't have any problems.
	I've had numerous out of body experiences and never had a problem.
	You said you believe the phenomenon of possession is real.
	Correct.
	What is it that is possessing somebody?
	Quite often what it is is what are described as wandering souls who have not been able to leave the earth plane.
	For instance, people who have drug and alcohol problems who die may be so attached to their addiction that they will hang around people who have those same addictions trying to get them.
	So there are some what I would call wandering souls or confused souls that are not ready They don't realize they're dead quite often.
	For instance, shamans who do what's called psychopompic work, which is where you go and work with the dead, will quite often find that these people don't realize that they're dead.
	Most psychologists, like yourself, would never admit something like that because generally people who are thought to be possessed are sent to people like you to straighten them out.
	Right.
	Well, and there are some people who obviously have, for instance, are schizophrenic.
	And then there are other people who seem to be schizophrenic who aren't.
	I have, for instance, one woman in my practice right now who almost any other therapist would say she's schizophrenic.
	Now, I have gotten her to meditate and she had a couple of lucid dreams.
	I have her reading some things.
	She made about a 180 degree turnaround.
	I am quite convinced in my own mind that she never was psychotic to begin with.
	What happened was she was more open than the average person to some of these spiritual
	realities and it just confused her.
	Isn't that interesting.
	Then let me ask you this.
	We have mental health hospitals across the nation filled with people who have been so
	diagnosed.
	percentage of them do you think have been misdiagnosed?
	Well, that would be difficult to say, but I really have not given much thought to that.
	I think a better question is, how many can we help?
	For instance, the field of near-death experiences has always been theoretic and academic.
	I gave a paper a couple of years ago on the overlap between near-death experiences and shamanism.
	Shamanism is an applied clinical methodology.
	It's more like psychotherapy than it is religion, where a shaman is somebody who goes into this altered state, leaves their body, gets some type of information that is helpful to the client and brings it back.
	What I have been saying, there are at least two clinical applications that we are now in a position to be able to use.
	One of them is shamanism and the other is helping people to experience ecstasy directly through the use of lucid dreaming.
	Let me tell you just a real quick anecdote.
	A lady came to me, a very lovely lady, presented herself for psychotherapy.
	She had been married to the same man for over 30 years.
	They went to bed one night and he died in his sleep.
	When she came to see me she was absolutely overcome by grief.
	I was very, very moved by her story.
	I really was.
	I came home and I, as I said, am a student learning shamanic techniques.
	One of those techniques is to go to find dead people and get information from them.
	So using sustained drumming I altered my state of consciousness and I almost immediately found myself in a home in the section of Orange County that I know that they live in.
	This man showed me his ring finger and said, tell her about the sapphire ring.
	That's all he said.
	He kept repeating, tell her about the sapphire ring.
	I finally said, you better be right because if you're not I'm going to feel like a fool.
	So all week I didn't know what to do with this information.
	It was so specific and yet I did not want to lose my client's confidence because she desperately needed a good therapist.
	So when she came in for her appointment the following week I decided to tell a little white lie.
	I told her I had a dream and I said, I don't know if this dream will mean anything to you or not but I just want to tell you.
	So I said, My dream was that your husband came to me and told me to tell you about the sapphire ring.
	Does that make any sense to you?
	And she looked at me and said, My husband had a sapphire ring in a man's setting and for ten years he's been after me to have it put in a woman's setting and to wear it.
	Now, and we looked at each other and both of us knew, I had met this woman once, never met her husband.
	He was dead at the time.
	She and I both knew nothing was said about rings.
	I know nothing about It must have been as much a shock for you as it was for her.
	Well my experience, it is awesome and it is also very humbling too.
	For some reason I just feel an incredible sense of humility.
	But also the point I'm trying to make is that being able to do this, and it doesn't take
	Oh, I get your point very clearly.
	We can be of an incredible amount of therapeutic value to people.
	But that almost moves you from the world of being a psychiatrist to very close to being a medium, doesn't it?
	Well, I think that this is the true psychology.
	Doctor, Doctor, hold on.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	We'll be right back.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	You're listening to Art Bell's Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from April 10, 1998.
	This is a presentation of the Coast to Coast AM program.
	Thank you.
	This is a presentation of the Coast to Coast AM program.
	Tonight's program originally aired April 10th, 1998.
	Dr. J. Timothy Green is my guest.
	He is a clinical psychologist and medium.
	It's pretty close to that in a lot of ways.
	I know they're just words.
	But that's the one that would seem to apply.
	I will ask them about that in a moment.
	Now we take you back to the night of April 10th, 1998 on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	Well, as I said at the beginning of the program, the two most profound questions that all of us, I think, would like answered are, where did we come from?
	How did we get here?
	In other words, our beginnings.
	And obviously, our ends as well.
	Doctor, I do want to ask you about being a medium, and in a sense, you entered this realm Quite frankly, I would not describe myself as a medium.
	I knew you wouldn't.
	But it is, in essence, is it not, what a medium does?
	I'm not quite sure.
	I think a medium is someone who somehow channels someone else, is my understanding of what a medium is.
	I'm not channeling.
	What I was doing was going into this ecstatic experience.
	And getting information.
	But I mean, mediums claim to speak with or communicate with the dead.
	Okay, well that would be one way that they're similar.
	But if I was going to say anything, I was practicing shamanism.
	In other words, this is what we would refer to in shamanism as a middle world shamanic journey.
	Well, are these not all, though, just descriptive words that are probably describing, by your own definition, the same realm?
	Yes, absolutely.
	There's absolutely no doubt that the realm that people, for instance, who have near-death experiences, people who are shamans, that they are describing the same realm.
	Absolutely, there's no doubt about that.
	Here's a very interesting fact.
	Dear Art and Doctor, I've had an MDE.
	I had it in 1982.
	My two daughters and I were hit head-on by a drunk driver at about six at night.
	I remember very clearly being told by the guides that met us that our time on Earth was finished.
	We, my daughters and myself, insisted that there was so much more that we could do.
	They showed us how dark the future could be and eventually the darkness turning into light.
	We still insisted that we wanted to go back.
	There was so much more we could do without warning.
	We zoomed back into our bodies, and I felt a great physical healing took place in each of us.
	The first days in the hospital, the doctors used the words miraculous and miracles several times concerning our injuries.
	I've read many, many books now about NDEs since then, but have never heard anyone talk about the same type of experience.
	Heard them say they wanted to stay, But we're told to return to Earth.
	In our case, not so.
	Obviously, they wanted to return.
	And this is not one or two, but three people who had this experience together.
	Quite remarkable, Doctor.
	The near-death experience that she describes is very typical, except in the sense that she asked to come back and was allowed to.
	Quite often, people will ask to stay.
	But here there were three of them, and they all reported exactly the same thing.
	Right.
	Wow.
	Difficult to not believe when you get that kind of evidence, isn't it?
	Yes, very difficult indeed.
	And apparently there is an actual very large body of evidence now with you, with Dr. Moody, with others who are researching all of this.
	Is it finally going to culminate in some sort of mainstream recognition in the academic community?
	Well, if it does, it is going to come very, very slowly because what you're talking about is a shift in paradigm.
	And what that entails is people giving up cherished beliefs.
	And as Thomas Kuhn said in his book on paradigm shifts, Well, you don't have just one experiment which just suddenly proves it.
	What you have is one generation dies out which held one paradigm and the other one comes in.
	Now, we have a whole generation of people who grew up hearing about near-death experiences.
	It's true.
	So that has been a wonderful, wonderful thing.
	in kind of acclimating people to the fact that at the point of apparent physical death, many people have a profound spiritual experience.
	But now I think we're in a position to say that more important than that is that it doesn't have to be at the point of apparent physical death.
	It can be done during life.
	It can be, absolutely.
	All right, let me ask you about this.
	You say you will follow Dr. Moody.
	Correct.
	Dr. Moody moved from the NBEs, as most researchers seem to have done, as you have done, and he moved toward this psychomantium business as a matter of contacting the dead.
	So is this just a natural course For investigators like yourself and Dr. Moody to move from A to B?
	Well, quite frankly, I wrote an article that appeared in the journal Near Death Experiences.
	Raymond Moody coming up with a cyclomantium and having spirits of dead relatives and friends appear to about half of the people was the first time that anybody came up with a clinical application out of this research.
	And he has been very roundly criticized, but I think he deserves credit for having come up with the first clinical application to come out of the field of near-death studies.
	I had a friend years ago who said to me, I was so excited about hearing these accounts of near-death experiences and this friend that I was going to graduate school.
	I thought it was a very good question.
	Is this just a theoretical interest or is there any actual application?
	I think that there are at least two applications.
	First of all, the one that we see in shamanism.
	There are many people now being trained, westerners who are being trained.
	In these techniques and some of them are having absolutely amazing results.
	Every time, for instance, you have a shaman who goes out and helps somebody in some way, shamanically.
	In other words, they go out of their body, they find some type of information, they come back and they help somebody.
	You have given evidence.
	In support of the underlying hypothesis that we have in New Death Experiences.
	So in other words, for a shaman to go into that realm and to come back with some information that's helpful, for instance, as I did with this lady.
	Yes.
	Believe me, these people walk away believing.
	Oh, I'm sure they do.
	When you experience it directly.
	Sure.
	And the other thing that I think is very important is that People can learn to have lucid dreams.
	It has been shown to be a learnable, teachable skill.
	It takes about as much time and as much money and patience as maybe a semester in school.
	But you can learn this.
	I could teach anybody to have these experiences.
	It's absolutely profound.
	People can then come to their own conclusion about what this is.
	The vast majority of people who I talk to will say that this is a profound spiritual experience.
	Some people may have a different take on it, but what we have done with Lucid Dreaming is actually we have now what is an empirical way of investigating this.
	It's still subjective, but people can actually do this themselves.
	Let me ask you about this.
	Edgar Cayce's son.
	Not very long ago I've interviewed a number of people from the Cayce Foundation.
	Edgar Cayce.
	Edgar Cayce.
	Was he a shaman?
	The definition of a shaman is somebody who enters into ecstasy and does so with intention and purpose to help people in his or her community.
	And I would have to say yes.
	That's what he did.
	As a matter of fact, they're using a lot of his readings, he called them readings, in modern day treatments with quite a bit of success.
	But he was able to go into this altered state and he was able to diagnose medical difficulties and then remedies for people and it worked.
	With incredible accuracy and over an extended period of time.
	Let me point something else out, too.
	If you define a shaman as somebody who helps people, helps to heal people through spiritual means, then Christ would obviously have been a very powerful shaman.
	For instance, there's a man, a professor of religious studies named Morton Smith at Harvard who has written just that, that Christ was I couldn't agree more.
	to a very powerful shaman. And of course Mohammed in Islam, some of the Jewish prophets. Shamanism
	has probably influenced the esoteric and the mystical side of almost all of religions.
	I couldn't agree more. However, I have talked of these things many times before with other
	guests to my audience, and a certain portion of the audience, I promise you, would say,
	oh boy, are you being fooled, and the realm you're moving and investigating is indeed
	the devil's realm.
	That's what they would say.
	Well, and my question would be, what makes you think that?
	Because this is also the realm which Christ dealt with.
	He said, for instance, one of the things he said is, all these things I do you can do and more.
	I have visited these realms and I have nothing to do with the devil.
	I was talking to my uncle who is a Jesuit priest and he said basically the same thing.
	I had, for instance, a lucid dream in which there was an angel kneeling next to my bed.
	I told him about this.
	He said, we just better be careful who you're dealing with.
	That's right.
	My answer to the people like that is, I have some experience in this.
	You have none, so I'm going to assume that I have more authority in the matter than you do because I have more direct experience.
	Quite frankly, I haven't found anything to do with the devil or evil or anything else and neither has anyone else who I've spoken to.
	I suppose that if you had some evil intention, you could do that.
	In other words, you could use these things for evil intention, but then you could use anything in ordinary life for evil intention, too.
	During any of your altered states, doctor, do you or any of the people that you have questioned, investigated in your clinical work?
	Have they seen the future?
	Have they seen visions of what is to come, as did Edgar Cayce and so many others who moved in that realm?
	There was a book by Kenneth Ring called Heading Toward Omega in 1984, and he interviewed a number of people.
	This is not very common at all, but some people will say they have what he referred to as flash-forwards, where they saw Something that was going to happen in the future?
	Yes.
	And they all kind of agreed, and actually I interviewed one of these people, that there were going to be shortages of food and money and all those catastrophic things.
	You hear a nuclear war.
	A lot of people said there was going to be a nuclear bomb dropped in the Los Angeles area.
	And the interesting thing to me is that not one of those things that those people predicted, they all said it would happen in 1988.
	Not one of those things happened.
	I believe Mr. Casey's predictions include some rather dire things for 98 this year.
	But in that area, you are correct.
	Edgar Casey had most of his, quote, misses, end quote.
	I think that what people see is a possible future.
	And I think that it can be changed.
	And so I think that all of these predictions are just...
	It's more of a probability.
	It's more of how things are going to turn out if things continue to move in the way they are.
	And obviously things can always change.
	So I really, I've heard all these predictions and if it happens, it happens.
	But I really don't put a lot of stock in it.
	In the meantime, you're much more interested in the practical application side now of this.
	You have moved from investigation into More or less the same area as Raymond Moody.
	Well, not quite.
	We are in a position now to offer to people a very safe and effective way of, for instance, having lucid dreams, which is the most easily accessed ecstatic experience.
	Just to show you, the entire field of psychoanalysis began in 1900.
	With the publication of Freud's Interpretation of Dreams.
	So dream work is a time-honored therapeutic modality.
	Well, let me ask you about the practical side of it.
	I have some whiz-bang dreams.
	We all do.
	How do I bring myself to a state of consciousness during one of these whiz-bang dreams?
	How do I do it?
	First of all, you write all of your dreams down and you start to become very familiar with them.
	Most people will have what are referred to as dream signs.
	For instance, I kept having the same symbol of policeman in my dreams over and over and over and over again.
	So what you do is you take that.
	You know that that's going to come up in your dreams.
	Then during your waking hours, what I would do if I saw a policeman, I would say, am I And over a period of time it becomes a very automatic response.
	And then one night I'm in a dream and there's a policeman there.
	And I go, am I dreaming?
	And I go, yes.
	And suddenly I am conscious.
	Just becoming very familiar with your dreams can help you.
	And then using these dream signs, and there are a number of other techniques that have been found to be very useful.
	But it's basically getting to know your dreams, becoming familiar with them, analyzing them.
	I think it's extremely important for people who want to do this to be in a group that meets at least once or twice a month.
	I'm sorry, once or twice a month.
	And the only people, there are a lot of people who I have worked with, I have led groups,
	lucid dream groups, and many people catch on very, very quickly.
	Other people don't quite catch on, but if you analyze and if you work with them for a while, you can find out why.
	For instance, as you said in your own case, there are some fears.
	In my case, there were some belief systems that I had that were blocking my way.
	Would that be your traditional belief system?
	An academic background as a psychologist that held you back?
	Absolutely.
	See, I've gone at this for many years from kind of a research academic orientation.
	Actually, I was raised Catholic and I was very interested in spiritual experiences, but I was also in Catholicism given this very clear message that all those saints and Christ did this.
	It would never happen to me.
	Unless of course I was a saint and I obviously was not a saint.
	So normal people, I was given a very strong message that normal people are not apt to.
	As I grew up and started studying psychology and all of these other things, I found that you wouldn't believe how many people have these experiences.
	In fact, when I started my original study, I would just start talking about this and almost everyone Had a story to tell me.
	Oh, I believe it.
	Trust me, when we open up these phone lines, it'll be filled with nothing but.
	So that's how I know how common it is.
	It's extremely common.
	Yes.
	We do have that opportunity now.
	Doctor, I can either let you go if you feel your eyelids closing or we can do another hour and let the audience ask you questions.
	I would love to talk to some people.
	You would?
	All right, well then I can fulfill that wish easily, believe me.
	Can I say something?
	Yes.
	I would like to say hello to my nieces who are listening tonight in Alaska, Valerie and Sophie Green.
	Well, maybe they'll get through.
	Okay.
	Maybe they'll get through.
	Certainly, they can hear us up there in Alaska.
	All right, Dr. Green, stay right there.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	It's been a too long time with no peace of mind.
	And I'm ready for the time to get better.
	All right.
	The news and then next hour the phone lines open.
	I'm Art Bell.
	We'll be right back.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from April 10th, 1998.
	I've got to tell you I've been racking my brain, hoping to find a way out.
	I've had enough of this continual rain.
	yeah.
	Changes are coming, no doubt.
	I'm the only woman for you.
	Nobody does it like I do.
	Like I do And make a move before you try to pull the plug
	Oh baby You are the one, you are the one
	And heaven waits here at my door If you wanna go, if you wanna go
	Oh, oh, oh, oh, baby Jump for my love
	Jump in and feel the thrill Jump if you wanna play
	I'm dripping in the night sea Jump for my love
	Jump, I know my heart can make you happy Jump in and hold me tight when you're in love
	Jump if you wanna play I'm dripping in the night sea
	Jump, jump for my love When you are next to me
	You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere In Time on Premiere Radio Networks
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from April 10, 1998.
	Good morning, everybody.
	We are talking Lucid Dreams, OBEs, NDEs.
	If you have questions, we're going to the phone shortly with Dr. Green.
	So stay right where you are.
	I'm going to be right back.
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	Looking for the truth?
	You'll find it on Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
	This Osama Bin Laden story is perplexing to me.
	I just wish they'd come out one day and would tell us the truth about everything.
	I mean, because my brain tells me we got the guy.
	But then there's so many other episodes that are out there that tell me, you know, it's possible that we're being deceived.
	I can't rule that out entirely.
	I wish I could, but I can't.
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	Weird stories on the radio?
	Must be Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
	You know, when I started doing this radio program, Jesse, half of the subjects I was really into The paranormal, the unusual, the ghosts and things like that.
	Yep.
	The conspiracy stories, you know, I was a little weary about these, other than the Kennedy assassination.
	And all of a sudden, I woke up.
	I simply woke up.
	Is that what happened with you two?
	Yeah.
	That's when I really started to say, what is going on here?
	And I started to truly then investigate 9-11.
	And today, I don't believe the government story of 9-11.
	Here's the three options.
	Either we knew about it and allowed it to happen, or we knew about it and participated in it, or these were the dumbest buffoons that could have ever been in charge of our country who could have all this pre-information.
	And I started to think they knew what was going to happen.
	They either are part of it or they allowed it to.
	There's no doubt in my mind.
	You're listening to Art Bell's Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from April 10th, 1998.
	1998 alright once again
	um... doctor j jimothy green a clinical psychologist and
	on the radio right now and uh... doctor here comes the Let's see what happens.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Dr. Green, good morning.
	Hello.
	Hello there, where are you?
	I am in Fairbanks, Alaska.
	Fairbanks, way up in Alaska.
	Alright, well, what's your first name?
	Michael.
	Michael.
	Alright, on the air you are, Michael, go ahead.
	Just a quick question.
	My question regarding this lucid dreaming would be, it sounds kind of dangerous.
	For example, if somebody were in the habit of, it's hard to explain, if somebody were consciously aware on a regular basis that they're dreaming, how would they be able to differentiate between dreaming and the real world?
	What bothers me about that is that It sounds dangerous.
	They could do something that they might regret.
	Like what?
	Well, okay.
	It is, though, an interesting question.
	Is there not any danger at all, Doctor, in not being able to discern after a while between a dream state and a conscious state?
	Well, the only danger is in somebody who has a history of problems with reality testing.
	So in other words, if you have had psychotic episodes or schizophrenia, or if you have some major problem in reality testing, you definitely would not be a candidate for this type of therapy.
	It is true that people, when they start having conscious dreams, their dream life starts to seem more real, and their everyday life starts to seem more dreamlike.
	Yes.
	But I don't think that's a problem.
	The reality of the situation.
	So you're saying for a well-balanced person, no, that is not a danger?
	Absolutely.
	And quite frankly, I would not let anyone... I think that you need a very good, intact ego, and you need to be well-balanced before I would treat somebody with this type of therapeutic modality.
	Alright.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Dr. Green.
	Good morning.
	Where are you, please?
	I'm in Seattle.
	This is John.
	Hi, John.
	Dr. Green, it's a pleasure to talk to you both.
	My pleasure.
	Dr. Green, I've had five or six lucid dreams throughout my life so far.
	They usually happen when I'm dreaming and something really strange happens.
	I'm starting to float across the room and I say, hey, this can't be happening.
	So I must be dreaming and I'm conscious in my dream.
	But they only last for a very short period of time.
	It seems like just maybe 10 seconds, 15 seconds and then I slowly realize that I'm in bed and I just wake up.
	I've read some on the subject about how to stay in the dreams.
	Have you read LaVerge?
	Yeah, I've read some of his work.
	I've also had three or four coming close to OBD's and I didn't know what they were until I listened to one of Art Bell's shows.
	One of his guests described how he was really scared when it happened and I could relate to that because there was kind of a buzzing sound.
	Can I ask, did your OBD's begin during the sleep state?
	Yes, it was always during the sleep state and I felt like I wanted to sit up in bed but I couldn't.
	I felt paralyzed and I really felt like there was a presence there and that's what really scared me.
	The most recent one, actually I was listening to Art Bell and I fell asleep on the couch and this time I was armed with the information that that's all that it was.
	I was coming close to An OBE, so I tried to relax and I tried to just go with it.
	I felt like I did, but then again I kind of woke up, so I'm not sure what really happened.
	So I just wondered what the next step is.
	Well, as people learn to have this experience, as they have it more and more, you will stay in it longer.
	If there's anything, any strong emotion will pull you out of the experience.
	So if you get really excited, a lot of people when they have their first lucid dream will get so excited that they will bring themselves out of the dream.
	So what you want to do is to kind of maintain an emotional kind of sense of detachment a little bit.
	The other thing that you can do is quite often as you're coming out of a lucid dream you can feel yourself.
	I can actually feel myself when I'm in a lucid dream about two or three seconds before I'm going to come out of it.
	that we have found as effective as to twirl.
	There is something about that that will keep you in the dream state.
	So what I do, I can actually feel myself when I am in a lucid dream about two or three seconds
	before I am going to come out of it.
	I can feel it and if I can spin I can stay in it quite often.
	But the other thing is that as you have these experiences more and more you will stay in
	it for a longer period of time.
	Doctor?
	Yes?
	Here's one of the reasons I'm so afraid of this.
	Have you ever passed out?
	Yes.
	When you pass out from a conscious state, you faint.
	What we call fainting.
	This is many, many years ago.
	I had dental work done.
	And I was at a drive-in theater back in the days when they used to really have those.
	And I, as a result of one of the drugs they gave me, I passed out.
	And it wasn't an immediate thing.
	It was kind of a slow, buzzing, humming thing that kind of came on me.
	I'm struggling for words here.
	The buzzing increased, the consciousness decreased, and finally, of course, I passed out, and then woke back up again.
	But the beginning of an OBE is eerily similar to that, and that scared the hell out of me.
	To lose control, to pass out, is really a frightening thing.
	And it's very similar to the beginning of an OBE.
	Well, all I can tell you is this.
	If you can allow yourself to kind of relax that fear long enough to have an OBE, the vast majority of people who have them will say that they're a very enjoyable experience.
	It's a very natural experience.
	It's amazing.
	See, I believe that these experiences are super physical, but they're not supernatural.
	I believe these experiences are very natural and it is very, very common for people to say that during this experience, even amazing transcendental experiences, that it was familiar and that it seemed natural while it was happening.
	But that's on the other side of the hill.
	It's getting over this hill.
	That's right.
	And that's exactly why in therapy, for instance, if you were in therapy with me, I would meet with you individually.
	And try to work with this fear that you have.
	And that would be the first step, because as long as that fear is there... Then I'm not going from here to there.
	Right.
	No, I think I understand that.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Green.
	Good morning.
	Yeah, doctor.
	I have a question here.
	Sir, where are you and what is your first name?
	I'm in Texas and my name is Mike.
	Okay, Mike.
	And I had a question about nine years ago.
	It wasn't a near-death experience.
	It was sort of like that.
	But what had happened was I went to a place.
	I don't know where it was, but it was like complete peace and everything.
	You can't experience what I experienced here living while you're alive.
	And what I was wondering was under hypnosis, Would I be able to go back to that area?
	What happened was I was 17 years old and I started dabbling in this devil thing.
	I don't really believe in the devil but I believe in evil.
	I allowed and welcomed this evil to come into my heart or whatever.
	Three days had gone by and strange things were happening.
	During sleep I was seeing what was going to happen the next day or whatever like that.
	I was laying about to go to sleep and I was thinking some bad things.
	I had these strange things.
	It was like electricity.
	It was building up at my feet and in my hands.
	And when that happened it went straight up my arms, straight up my legs, right to my heart.
	It made my heart hurt for a second and then I was asleep, I guess.
	And then I was in this place and it was all white.
	It was so peaceful.
	There was a man standing in front of me and he was wearing a robe and he had a gold trim around his robe.
	He had a hood on and his face was all black.
	You could not see his face.
	And he told me, he didn't tell me, he said, please, Mike, don't do this.
	And at that point, I heard this wicked laugh.
	I mean, it scared me so bad that I woke up right there and I heard the last bit of that laugh wide awake.
	Now that's some story.
	Yeah, that's an amazing story.
	Getting to your question about hypnosis, there is buried in the Journal of Near-Death Experiences a man named Raymond Babb, B-A-B-B, did a hypnotic induction on a group of people he was teaching.
	It was in a university setting and a number of people had experiences that were quite similar to what you're describing.
	So it certainly is possible, and it goes back to this thing, that anything or in any way that you can get past the ego, and certainly hypnosis is one of those ways, is a possible way of inducing this experience of ecstasy.
	Alright, what about the way he said he brought it on?
	I thought that very interesting.
	I've never heard anybody say before that they began all this.
	By in effect giving themselves up, not to God or to good, but to evil of all things.
	Now, I've never considered that as a path, but could it as easily be?
	It is a surrendering of the ego every bit as much, is it not?
	Quite frankly, I've never looked into that.
	I have one story that is somewhat similar to this.
	I interviewed a lady years ago who at age 10, her mother had died.
	Her father had remarried.
	There were a number of stepchildren.
	She was very, very upset by this whole thing.
	Her mother was apparently emotionally unstable, and she thought that her stepmother was going to kill her father, and so she decided to kill her stepmother.
	Wow.
	And one night, so she decided she was going to do it the next day.
	She fell asleep that night, and she had a dream in which she was with this man with a big book.
	She was out of her body.
	She floated up to this place.
	She saw this man with a big book and was in a robe.
	She was taken and she was told, listen, we know what you're planning on doing.
	There is a hell.
	You will go there if you do this.
	This is a great gift that you're being given.
	We just don't want you to do this.
	Many things happened and she came back down.
	same same uh... same basic under the agreement she was going to do something
	that was evil and was kind of given a a warning uh... not to do it
	or so his uh...
	your callers uh...
	first of all unprecedented i have heard other count similar to that all right was the rockies you're on the air
	without the green good morning where are you please
	it morning and and and and and uh...
	in uh...
	stop bank over over and over our
	the name's ron and uh...
	i guess uh... what concerns me is some of the uh...
	major questions that that really all of this implies For example?
	What is this other reality that we're dealing with?
	Well it's just the reality that through the millennium people have called the spiritual realm.
	Is that sufficient for you?
	Well that's a term.
	That's a term and there's these other realities that we are interfacing and we have historically.
	And it has some strong implications I think in terms of who we are, why we are here.
	I quite frankly think that this has the potential to revolutionize how we think of ourselves and how we view human nature.
	Quite frankly, I... Now here's a beautiful question for you.
	Do you think that it would ever be possible as generations pass, Doctor, and we begin to understand and really interface more and more and more with this realm, that in essence there will be a breakdown Between there and here, a more or less complete breakdown?
	That's a fascinating question.
	And quite frankly, I believe that is very, very possible.
	I think it's possible within our lifetime.
	Really?
	A lot of people have talked about the second coming of Christ in the Christian community, and you could say that that would be, for instance... That would be it, wouldn't it?
	Like we lost this in the Garden of Eve when Adam and Eve were And that would be the moment we would get it back.
	Exactly.
	I love that, you know, the Michelangelo's, where the fingers of God are almost touching the other man.
	Yes, well, I do too.
	We'll be right back.
	You're listening to Arc Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from April 10, 1998.
	This is a presentation of Coast to Coast AM.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from April 10th, 1998.
	Good morning, everybody.
	J. Timothy Green, PhD.
	Dr. Green is my guest and we are talking about I Guess what's over there, huh?
	Now we take you back to the night of April 10th 1998 on art Bell somewhere in time
	a I
	I I
	AVAILABLE NOW!
	A remarkably fascinating idea, Doctor.
	A sort of a breakdown between this side and that side.
	There are others who think That other side absolutely exists as well, but the breakdown will come through some sort of electronic or technological means.
	I take it you thoroughly disagree with that, and you feel it will be a spiritual?
	Quite frankly, I've never considered that, and I think that technology has something to play in this, and actually, I believe that brain research has a lot to play in this, too.
	But I really believe what will happen is a psychotechnology, in other words, is a way of training and altering our state of consciousness and thereby putting us in direct contact with spiritual reality.
	Did you see that movie so long ago called Altered States?
	Yeah, but it was so long ago I don't remember much about it.
	Well, it used a sensory deprivation chamber.
	There have been a lot of experiments with chambers of that sort, and I would think that, though the movie took that dramatically far beyond where we could take it, or where I think it would go, wouldn't such a chamber indeed produce an altered state that would take one into the realm that we are discussing?
	It would help to do that, and the way it would help is that it filters out all of the incoming sensory input and perception.
	So you don't have to deal with that.
	It leaves you with absolutely nothing but the inner realm.
	Correct.
	Now, you can resist these experiences, and my contention is these experiences should
	occur naturally.
	The only reason they don't is because somehow we are resisting.
	You could still, if you are in a sensory deprivation tank, resist it by using your thoughts, your
	beliefs and your ideas and your fears.
	You could construct things to keep your mind busy.
	Correct.
	But doing that would certainly be something that would be helpful.
	Isn't that what prisoners of war had to do many times to keep their sanity?
	They had to construct things to keep their mind busy?
	Absolutely, and we find that these transcendental experiences happen quite often during periods of intense stress.
	Or trauma.
	It happens quite often.
	So that is one of the things.
	And of course, if you stress somebody or traumatize somebody, you're traumatizing, again, their ego.
	And that is one way of getting through it.
	Oh, that's right.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Green.
	Good morning.
	Good morning, and happy Easter.
	Indeed.
	Where are you?
	I'm calling from Banana Belt, Alberta.
	Alberta.
	I have a couple of questions for Dr. Green.
	Have you met Daniel Brinkley in person?
	I know of Daniel and I've spoken to him on the phone.
	I've read his book and of course I'm very familiar with his story but I don't think we've ever met personally.
	He seems like a nice guy.
	I have a cousin who last fall had a tree fall on her and had an out of body experience.
	What happened was it was quite windy and a tree fell on her but she popped out of her body before the tree fell and saw the tree fall and hit her.
	She was about 20 or 30 feet up approximately.
	She saw her mother come running across the yard and drag her from the tree and kind of shake her and she popped back
	into her body.
	It was quite an experience for her.
	She had almost psychic abilities for a while.
	I was wondering if you had heard of a girl like this?
	When people are in the out of body state it is very common for them to say that they were
	telepathic during that state.
	For instance, many people will say that they know what everybody around them is thinking
	and feeling.
	I once interviewed a woman who was 17 years old and her throat had clogged up and she was out of her body watching people trying to resuscitate her and she said she was aware that the fireman who was trying to resuscitate her couldn't bear the idea of her dying because he had a daughter about her same age.
	She was able to verify that.
	So, during the out-of-body state, you have telepathy, or what is called gnosis, which is a knowing that doesn't come through your senses.
	But also, following these experiences, people like Daniel, it's very common for them to be clairvoyant, telepathic.
	It is, and was, so severe, Doctor, for Daniel, that to be near a group of people, particularly in a hospital setting, was impossible for him.
	He would literally hear a cacophony of thoughts and voices and emotions and it was altogether
	too much for him, so much so that he could not go within himself and try to do the healing
	that he was trying to do for himself because he was literally bombarded with all of these
	other thoughts.
	This brings up a very interesting point that is not often discussed.
	If you wanted to have a profound spiritual experience you probably would not want to
	have a near death experience because people are not prepared for it, not just the physical
	injuries that happen, but many, many people have a very difficult time.
	Adjusting following a near-death experience because they are so different following their experience.
	I had a lady come to me about five years ago and she described having had a near-death experience.
	She went to the first psychologist and told her she was crazy.
	The second one gave her my name.
	All she wanted to do when she came to see me was die.
	And she wasn't suicidal in the normal sense.
	She just wanted to go back into that light.
	It's a very interesting story.
	She had a friend who had died about four years prior to her own experience.
	She saw this dead friend during her near-death experience.
	Now, since that time, and it has now been six years since I've met this woman, they are in almost constant contact, usually during the dream state.
	Well, I was going to ask, how did you talk her out of this?
	Well, I just told her that this is something that people go through, that I had her read a number of books, I had her talk to other people who have had near-death experiences.
	So, in other words, you really, in essence, told her she need not die to...
	Well, I don't think I told her that at that time, but I told her that basically what she was going through was something that many, many people went through, that it would take her some time to adjust.
	She later told me that the best thing that I did for her, I had her talk to another woman who had a deep near-death experience, and that woman told her it takes really five years to integrate it.
	It's such a profound experience.
	Experience that these people have a very, very difficult time integrating it.
	Yes.
	So it's far easier to listen to somebody like yourself, research all of this, and begin with an OBE or lucid dreaming.
	Absolutely.
	This is speculation on my part, but people who have a spontaneous out-of-body experience that takes on transcendental characteristics like a near-death experience, Don't seem to have the difficulty and adjustment that people who have near-death experiences have.
	And I believe that that is because there must have been something in them that was prepared to have this spontaneously.
	Where a near-death experience, for instance in a traffic accident, I have a heart attack, you're totally unprepared.
	He said something rather interesting.
	He said that... Daniel?
	No, this last caller, he said that before the tree hit her, she left her body.
	Right.
	Now, is that common?
	That people, for example, will have at least a couple of seconds of notice of impending absolute death, like a big Mack truck headed straight at you, or who knows what it might be, a tornado about to sweep you up, whatever.
	Is that a protective measure of Well, the people who I have spoken to over the years usually do not observe how they leave their bodies.
	So this person apparently observed that they left their body before the tree came down on them.
	That's a little bit uncommon to be that observant during the course of a Accident like that.
	However, rather practical when you think about it.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	First time caller on the line.
	You're on the air with Dr. Green.
	Hi.
	Good morning, Art.
	Good morning, Dr. Green.
	This is Mike calling from Austin, Texas.
	Hi, Mike.
	98.9 KJFK FM.
	Thank you.
	Well done.
	I have actually two questions for Dr. Green this morning.
	First one pertaining to personal experiences of lucid dreaming Quite regularly, at least once a week, I can find myself knowing that I'm asleep, and there's usually some kind of drama involved, and I can tell myself, I know this is a dream, and at the point that I realize it's a dream, I can then start directing the events of the drama.
	Right.
	Now, this happens quite often for me and not as often for me.
	Maybe about once a month I have the experience that Art can relate to of the body paralysis with buzzing.
	I can acknowledge that it's the probable onset of an out-of-body experience.
	It's not fear that's holding me back.
	I think it's a conscious acknowledgement that it's happening and trying too hard to let go of it.
	Trying too hard to have the out of body experience?
	Correct.
	I was just wondering if you might be able to recommend useful techniques for something like that.
	If you're having one a week, that's very good.
	For anybody who experiences sleep paralysis and that rushing noise sometimes, a very good technique is to simply imagine yourself in some other room in your house.
	In other words, you're in your bedroom.
	You feel the paralysis, which is quite frightening.
	The paralysis can be very uncomfortable sometimes.
	And it can be very frightening if you don't know what it is.
	But what has actually happened is that you have come out of a very deep stage of sleep more quickly than normal and that's why you are still paralyzed.
	So it really is nothing that could ever be dangerous.
	Sure.
	But my recommendation to you if you wanted to have an out of body experience from that state would be simply imagine yourself in your kitchen or in your bathroom and quite often people will find themselves suddenly there.
	Well you know it's to the point where I've wanted to have an out of body experience very badly and I know that it would just take one time the experience of it doing it the first time Well, the first time I had an out-of-body experience, I wanted to have one the next night.
	I wouldn't say it's the key, but the more of these experiences you have, the closer you get to mastering it.
	time I had an out of body experience I wanted to have one the next night.
	I wouldn't say it's the key but the more of these experiences you have the closer you
	get to mastering it.
	When you've had your first out of body experience, if you've been well prepared for it, then
	The only people I think that get frightened are people who aren't prepared.
	But if you're prepared, if you're trying to do it, and you have it, most people find it just fascinating.
	Oh yes, I know.
	Maybe I'll finally, finally, finally be able to do it if I keep listening to enough people like you.
	And those who talk about OBEs are very consistent in what they say.
	Let me, just for your caller, if he continues to have lucid dreams, over an extended period of time.
	And if you're having one a week, that's pretty good.
	Most people who I have worked with have found that over a period of time, they will start having out-of-body experiences.
	Just as a matter of course, after having a number of lucid dreams.
	So lucid dreams are more likely to come before the OB?
	Correct.
	Yes.
	Interesting.
	Oh, very interesting.
	Okay.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Dr. Green.
	Hi.
	Hi, how are you guys doing?
	We're fine, where are you?
	I'm in Coos Bay, Oregon.
	And I kind of got the bug to call because you said something about spinning to keep yourself in the dream.
	And it really hit a chord with me because when I was a child I used to actually lay flat on my bed while I was awake and consciously kind of spin my body while I was laying flat on my bed as I was going to sleep and I was just like, oh wow.
	I have a couple questions.
	One is I kind of had an experience where near death and what not I think that's what I kind of labeled it where I was in like an ex-boyfriend of mine had put me in a sleeper hold.
	What is a sleeper hold?
	Where you put your arm around someone's neck and you put it off their air.
	Oh I see.
	It did something in my neck because I have neck problems since then.
	I was in like a blue room talking to an old man and it was like the language was just pure intention and that became my whole reality.
	So when I woke up in the morning, not in the morning but laying there, I looked at my boyfriend and I had no idea who he was and this is a person I was completely in love with.
	Slowly my memories started coming back.
	From what I remember about it, I didn't have no heavenly experience like a lot of people do, or I actually had an ex that described a hellish experience.
	But what I was wondering is, since then I've become more into Wicca and stuff like that.
	Have you seen people that are more into the nature religions have more things that go along with their own That's kind of interesting.
	In other words, she moved toward Wicca after the experience of more nature-oriented worship.
	And Wicca, of course, means wise woman, which has gotten a very bad public relationship.
	Kind of like wise guy.
	Right.
	Wicca does mean wise woman as a woman who knew of these ways, but what I am interested in doing is facilitating the ecstatic experience and I always encourage people to remain in whatever spiritual tradition they feel comfortable with.
	Now a lot of people will be drawn to a particular tradition because of their experience.
	For instance, many, many people who have near-death experiences are drawn to shamanism because there is a very strong connection between that.
	Now, you went to Wicca, but you could take any of these experiences and you could use them within the context of whatever religious or spiritual tradition you were comfortable with.
	Which means you could stay with the one you were brought up with or you could change.
	My only interest is in facilitating the experience itself.
	I also have had many of what you would call lucid dreams.
	I remember when I was a kid, this is kind of a combination of wondering what exactly this was, whether it was a dream or more reality.
	Where I would wake up and see things hovering over me when I was very small, like about four or so.
	I'd see three different times.
	I'd see three different things.
	One's trying to be a policeman, one's trying to be Laura Ingalls, and then another one trying to be a disguise of my dad, but I could look and see in the eyes that they were all the same being each time.
	I'd see it as I was waking up, so I was wondering if that was a dream that was projecting itself I'm sorry, this is like a vision you saw?
	I was waking up.
	I see things a lot of times even now.
	I'm just in that stage where I'm waking up.
	I assume that's what you're speaking of, lucid dreaming kind of.
	You can enter into the lucid state either as you're falling asleep or as you're waking up.
	What you're describing is hypnopompic imagery.
	Hypnopompic means coming out of sleep.
	And either when you're falling asleep or when you're coming out of sleep, you can have very vivid imagery.
	And I believe that's what you're describing.
	Is your father alive or was he alive at the time?
	She's now gone.
	That's very interesting.
	I've never heard that term before.
	Hypnopompic?
	Yes.
	Yeah, hypnopompic refers to the images that people have just as you're waking up.
	And hypnagogic means the images that people will quite often see As they're just falling asleep.
	Well, what are these images, as differentiated from what we've been discussing tonight in these other realms?
	Well, the images that you get are, especially as you're falling asleep, are probably not dreams, because you have not gone into a dream state yet.
	They are a very interesting state of consciousness.
	For instance, a lot of people are very creative and try to use this space to get a lot of creative ideas.
	Oh, yes.
	Oh, yes.
	That's a fascinating area all by itself.
	All right, Doctor.
	Thank you for being here.
	I enjoyed it.
	All right.
	That is it, folks.
	I'm sorry.
	We're out of time.
	I could just go and go and go like the Energizer Bunny, but the clock says I must indeed go.
	So that's it for this week.
	See you Monday night.
	Tuesday morning with more of whatever it is we do.

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