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March 9, 1998 - Art Bell
32:54
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Chris Ruddy - Death of James MacDougall
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A local prison official says that whitewater figure James McDougal was in solitary confinement when he died Sunday of an apparent heart attack.
McDougal, who had a history of medical problems, was placed in, quote, administrative detention, unquote, Saturday night because he had refused to give a urine sample as part of random drug testing.
But the prison spokesman says solitary confinement was safe for McDougal because inmates there are checked on every 30 minutes.
Here is investigative reporter Chris Ruddy who works for, it's a Pittsburgh Tribune Review, isn't it?
It is the Pittsburgh Tribune Review.
Yeah, okay.
Also author of the strange death of Vincent Foster.
Right.
Available in bookstores everywhere.
Maybe we'll have a sequel.
Well, look, I'm going to play the devil's advocate a little bit here.
McDougal was a sick guy, right?
Well, look, I always play the devil's advocate as well.
That's the job of a press.
You want me to be the conspiratorial guy?
I can do that.
I thought we were both the conspiracy nuts.
What are we doing up at this hour?
So, uh, hey, Chris, um, how did they murder McDougal?
I mean, we all know they did it.
It was some sort of strange drug that they slipped him.
Uh, we all know they can do that.
Induces heart attacks, boom, just like that.
So what's the story, Chris?
Well, I don't know if McDougal was murdered or not.
Well, I'm going to assume the story that we've been told by the government.
Uh, uh, however, I believe there should be a full investigation, just as there would be in any case.
Art, if you talk any case where there was a major criminal prosecution, and one of the key witnesses suddenly dies of a heart attack, even though he might have had some illnesses, two weeks after a major witness turned that was corroborating apparently parts of his story, That's Governor Tucker, just turned apparently two weeks ago and agreed to corroborate with Starr.
And he dies on the anniversary, six years to the day, March 8, 1992, when the scandal first breaks in the New York Times, when Jeff Gerth, a reporter for the Times, reports that the Whitewater scandal could hurt the Clintons and has all sorts of allegations.
From a person named James McDougal.
Alright, there's a skeptic in me for a second.
Let's say, for example, that you were going to have McDougal offed in jail.
Okay?
The last time you would do it would be on the anniversary of when it all began.
Well, I wouldn't jump to that conclusion.
I think that... I mean, unless you're really arrogant.
Well, look, again, I want to assume that this is a heart attack, but let's play the devil's advocate.
Oftentimes when organized crime, for example, does hit, they typically do hits where there's little signals.
And when they do a hit where it doesn't look like a hit, they leave their fingerprints so that others in the circle know and have reason to believe that it's murder.
And it's done to keep other people quiet.
Like the IRS auditing high-profile folks, that kind of thing?
Yeah.
Same theory.
Same theory, yeah.
Screw with us and, you know, see what can happen.
Well, this was part of the problem in the Foster case.
And again, as you know, I've never said Vince Foster was murdered.
But a number of people obviously have.
There are people like Webb Hubble.
Who was telling people on the night of Foster's death he was murdered.
Right, but let's, you know, Foster's then and MacDougall is now, and I really want comments from you on MacDougall.
Now let's get to, first of all, the audience should know what I know.
And that is that now with MacDougall having died, the implication for the investigation is that any evidence that MacDougall gave can now not be used in court.
Is that correct?
That is correct.
Grand jury testimony is considered hearsay when there's no cross-examination.
It's inadmissible in court.
Now again, McDougal was not a very strong witness standing alone.
He lacked a lot of credibility.
He had lied so many times.
Right.
Maybe he had some documents.
He was always talking about documents, but alone he was no good.
Corroborating Jim Guy Tucker, the former governor of Arkansas, he would have been a very powerful witness.
Where if Tucker was corroborating him, the two of them could be very, very powerful.
So even evidence as damning as a videotape interview with McDougal could not be introduced into evidence by Ken Starr in some subsequent prosecution of whoever it might be?
No, because you can't cross-examine a videotape deposition, for example.
So let's say there was a videotape of MacDougall.
They wouldn't be able to use that.
Congress would not be given, couldn't be given his secret grand jury testimony to look at.
So he's really, literally a dead witness.
So his being gone, not only is he dead, but any evidence that he gave is dead as a doornail too, unless they can verify it through the next source, if he indeed pointed to one.
Well, my sources that are close to this investigation are saying this has felt a very, very serious blow to the investigation.
And the reason it has is that the target of the investigation is Bill and Hillary Clinton.
And the star was moving, with McDougal's help apparently, towards Hillary.
Because she was the attorney for record for Madison Guarantee, which was McDougal's bank.
Went down to the tune of $60 million?
I've always said, Chris, and I've always thought, that if there was going to be real legal trouble, it would probably be Hillary's.
I've conjectured about that now for actually years.
Well, Jim did not like Hillary.
In fact, in my last conversation, I interviewed him several times.
I interviewed him just before he went to jail, and I think he was the most candid.
And he clearly indicated to me that he was not happy with Hillary Clinton.
So, now here's the thing.
Governor Tucker, from what I can see from the dealings that took place, was not dealing or working directly with the Clintons.
What he knew about the Clintons, he knew through Jim McDougal.
McDougal was sort of the nexus, was the conduit, between Tucker, the Clintons, and others involved in this huevo scandal.
Take McDougal out, And everything Jim Guy Tucker says is just hearsay.
Hearsay.
I've got you.
So this is a very, very serious blow, the death of MacDougall.
Yeah.
I mean, leave aside the issue, and there'll always be conspiracy theorists that'll question that death.
It's sort of fortunate for the people that are being investigated here that this has taken place.
Especially that there's talk that this is coming to a head now after all of this time.
Did McDougal have a heart condition?
He apparently had some heart problems over the years.
I was speaking to him about his medical condition and he indicated to me that he had some medical conditions but it didn't sound like he was He was ready to have a heart attack or anything like that.
He said that he was suffering from some psychological depression and things like that.
Did he tell you of any previous heart condition?
Not that I remember, no.
Is there any medical record to indicate a previous heart condition?
Well, I don't know of any.
There haven't been, they've mentioned in the press reports that he had chronic circulatory And cardio problems.
But there's no evidence that I know of that he had, let's say, a heart attack before this.
All right.
I heard, not in this Reuters story I read you tonight, but I heard that he died in a prison hospital.
Is that accurate?
Yeah, well, he was checking into a prison hospital.
Was he in it when he died?
Not that I know of.
Well, actually, I believe he was in a prison hospital and then they transferred him to a private hospital in Fort Worth.
Alright, what it says here, what it says, let me read the story again, word for word, and see what you think of it.
A federal prison official says Whitewater figure James McDougal was in solitary confinement when he died Sunday of an apparent heart attack.
McDougal, with a history of medical problems, doesn't say heart, was placed in administrative detention Saturday night because he had refused to give a urine sample as part of a random drug test.
But the prison's, now that's important, the prison's spokesman says solitary confinement was safe for McDougal because inmates there are checked on every 30 minutes.
Well, I guess it wasn't safe.
Well, these medical facilities, the U.S.
government has semi-hospitals where Where convicts that have medical problems live.
But they usually don't have, let's say, the full medical facilities.
They don't have operating rooms.
Doctors 24 hours a day there.
But they're for people that are not in intensive care, let's say, but people that have chronic conditions.
So this is why, when they mention the prison, there are prison medical facilities.
He was at one of them from the day he entered.
The Federal Prison System.
Because of his stated medical problems.
Right, which were apparently several.
Which could be, you know, when you say circulatory, then that implies possible heart problems, constricted veins, that sort of thing.
So it is reasonable to suggest that he might have had heart problems.
Absolutely.
And he was of the age where he could have had that.
Um, was apparently under some stress.
It's not easy at his age going to jail.
That's right.
He, um, had suffered several, uh, breakdowns apparently in the course of his life.
He was how old when he died?
Fifty-seven.
Fifty-seven.
Well, I guess that's in the range, but it's still a little on the young side.
But on the other hand, he still is a key government witness.
You become vulnerable if there are people that don't like you and you are a key witness.
This is why.
Take away the personalities here, Jim McDougal, the Clintons, and all of the other intrigue that we know of.
In any case, you would do a full autopsy.
You would do full toxicology.
Sure.
You would look for exotic drugs like ricin that could cause cardiac arrest.
Why are they doing that?
Well, as far as I know, they're doing an autopsy, and it's going to take about, they've done the autopsy, and they're going to take about two weeks to get the toxicology tested.
And they're reporting back he died of a heart attack.
You don't know until there's a full... Well, even then, I don't think you really know because these spooks, if you want to conjecture that it could have been something like that, have drugs that cause apparent heart attacks that I think cannot be detected under normal toxicology testing.
Well, a couple of things here, and again, I know You sort of see the Foster thing as separate.
I don't.
I think that they're integral.
Oh, I understand.
McDougal's a player.
In fact, Foster and McDougal are sort of ground zero for the Whitewater scandal.
Jeff Gerth in the New York Times First reports Whitewater, and then what really brings the scandal to a head is 1993, Foster's death, aides of the Clintons are running into Foster's office, allegedly removing Whitewater documents.
The U.S.
government, you and me, pay $30 million on the rest of your listeners for this major investigation into Foster's death that lasts over three years.
They keep on saying suicide, suicide.
They never tell us really why he died of a suicide.
And what's astounding is I spoke to McDougal just before he left for prison.
Yes.
And he said to me off the record, and I'm revealing this now for the first time now that he's passed away, I can do that.
That what?
He was never questioned about Foster, and he was absolutely shocked.
What?
Star never asked him about his relationship with Foster.
That's hard to believe.
I have him on tape.
Oh, I understand.
I definitely believe he said it.
Hold on, we're at the bottom of the hour.
It's hard to believe that Star would not ask McDougal about Foster.
I mean, that's...
That's really hard to believe.
We'll be right back.
...investigative reporter Chris Ruddy, who is on every friend of the White House list.
Chris, welcome back.
You know, Chris, while you never, ever, it's true, actually say the words, Vince Foster was murdered, or James McDougal was murdered, The clear implication going unsaid and between most of the lines that one hears from you is that you suspect that.
Well, in the Foster case, all I have been saying, and this carries over to the McDougal case, we haven't really seen what the investigators or the authorities have done yet with McDougal.
Right.
And what I'm saying there is that the procedure should be followed.
Normal procedures weren't followed with Vincent Foster.
So this has given rise to conspiracy theories and to murder theories.
Yeah.
So does that mean that I'm saying it's murder because they didn't do some of the most basic things you need to do in a typical homicide investigation, also suicide Are supposed to be treated as homicides?
I mean, I know you've been over all this a million times with me.
I have no argument with that, and I agree with you.
There are many, many anomalies.
But what I'm saying is, you all but say it.
No, I disagree completely with that.
My job is to report the facts as a reporter.
If two of the paramedics are reported officially in their reports that Foster was murdered, that is a story the public should know about.
Webster Hubble on the night of the death was indicating it.
That is a story the public should know about.
If there's no explanation of where Foster was on the afternoon of his death, I think that's a gaping hole that the authorities should fill in for us.
Foster was the Deputy White House Counsel, one of the highest officials in this country.
And the cavalier way that they treated that investigation, I know, I think is very, very dangerous to the rest of us Even if it was a suicide.
Open and shut case.
I'm not going to press you on the matter, but I insist that everything you say leads a casual listener to believe that you believe or are very suspicious that there was a murder.
Well, certainly I wouldn't have written a whole book if I didn't think that the death was suspicious.
But at the end of the day, Why is it the authorities spend 30 million dollars?
Suicide cases should be open and shut in a week.
Alright, you think all of this is connected and I'm even going to bring it on up to the Monica Lewinsky business now.
You told me something earlier today that I think is relevant when you consider McDougall's untimely passing and that would be That Linda Tripp, who has the tapes, allegedly, of Monica Lewinsky, is under guard.
Linda Tripp's under guard?
Well, absolutely.
I had a meeting this week with someone that knows her very well, that's listened to 20 hours of tapes.
Yes.
And the person said that she's in a safe house in Maryland, not her normal house.
A safe house.
And there's a group of FBI agents sitting in A van outside her house.
FBI agents.
And what I pointed out today to you, Art, was that this is very similar to the situation where David Hale, who was the first cooperating whitewater witness.
Judge Hale?
Yeah, was under constant FBI guard for months while he was giving testimony, preparing to give testimony.
For Fisk.
So the FBI guard for Tripp is probably coming at the order of Starr's office, because he does have FBI available, right?
Exactly.
So that's where it's coming from.
Well, that's right.
And he would be the one that would have to request it.
But this is not done willy-nilly.
They just don't Actually, it's very unusual for FBI agents even to be used, usually U.S.
Marshals.
So it shows that they're not even trusting the normal federal apparatus to do witness protection here.
What about Monica Lewinsky?
Is she under guard?
Well, not that I know of, no.
But then again, she's not a cooperating witness.
Right, right.
As a matter of fact, the late news on her, is it still that she is a target or likely to be a target of the investigation?
Now, her lawyer said that he received a document, or he claims he has a document.
Uh, saying that Starr named her as a target of the investigation.
Do you know if that's true?
Have you seen it?
I haven't seen the letter, but I would suppose that she would be a target.
In fact, I know there was a little debate within Starr's office.
And a lot of, a number of his more experienced prosecutors were, were, thought he was crazy for even attempting to, to get her as a cooperating witness.
Because she's already got sort of tainted credibility.
She claimed, for example, on part of the tapes, that she embellishes her lies.
There's former school teachers claiming things about her.
The White House can easily claim, you know, she's just a young woman who's embellishing her stories.
Better, according to my people that are close to the investigation, saying, put her in with Vernon Jordan and Bill Clinton.
Charge them all with being in a conspiracy to obstruct justice with the Paula Jones lawsuit.
She's a much better... Now, how do you get that connection?
Because they were going to take a deposition from her in the Paula Jones lawsuit?
Well, no, because they were going to take a deposition of her in the Paula Jones lawsuit, and that Clinton apparently had asked her, this is the allegation, to lie in that deposition.
Vernon Jordan had instructed her to lie.
This is alleged in those tapes.
Okay, but everybody, uh, everybody that you just named is denying it flatly.
That's right.
But if you have, um, there's sufficient evidence, I'm told, where they could see some patterns of crimes.
One is she was, she gave Linda Tripp a document of talking points for her deposition.
Somebody apparently gave her that.
Vernon Jordan was looking for a job for her.
I know.
This could be considered obstruction, hush, basically hush money in the form of a job.
Not unless you can prove it.
Well, not unless you can prove it.
I mean, Webb Hubble got a job too.
That's right, but if there's a pattern activity, a jury doesn't have to Have one of them admit that that was done.
If a jury thinks, and the prosecutors present a good case, that how unusual it would be for a White House intern to have Vernon Jordan, the President's right hand, Attorney of Washington, going up and down the country looking for a job for this young lady.
If he can't produce other White House interns where he's done this, he'd be in a little trouble.
And of course, there were a lot of meetings with Clinton.
Yeah, but not legal trouble.
I mean, it would show that clearly he had gone way out of his way for this young lady, and the questions would be why.
Okay, but I'll play the devil's advocate.
The answer to that is, well, yeah, Clinton had a kind of a relationship with her.
Everybody denies it was sex, so we're not going to prove that.
He had kind of a thing, and she definitely had a thing for him.
So let's imagine that.
Let's imagine they exchanged gifts.
Let's imagine that... Well, you can imagine all kinds of things.
You can imagine sex if you want to.
I don't care.
But what I'm saying is here, so far, until you get suborning to perjury or Uh, you know, as somebody asking somebody to lie, unless you've got proof of that, you're whistling in the wind.
Well, I don't, I, maybe you are, but the problem is that you have 20 hours of her on tape, so it's going to be hard for her to change her story and to say to a jury That she just embellished for 20 hours.
Yeah, but if I was the President's lawyer, if I was the President's lawyer, I'd say, come on, listen to the whole tape, especially the part where she says she embellishes.
Now you can disregard this entire thing.
Well, yeah, you can, but then you have the problem of, according to the New York Times, Betty Curry, the President's own secretary, has cooperated with Starr And said that, um, he was instructed her and coached her what to say to investigators.
Um, that is criminal.
Well, that is criminal investigation.
Should be a problem.
So you have a, it's not just one incident, Art.
I agree with you that each one of those, when you look at them, but it's the overall pattern.
And if they can prove that there's several lies, for example, on the sexual relations... Yeah, but you're still not there.
I mean, the line, if it doesn't fit, you must acquit, works just fine here.
Well, again, I don't know, not being a lawyer, but from what I understand, if you can show enough of a pattern of events, the statutes are fairly broad enough that a jury has a lot of leeway.
Now whether Starr would do that and actually bring indictments against these people is another question.
There's not two sides given to a grand jury.
Now, sure, Starr can go in there and probably, if he does his best, persuade a jury with a mountain of the kind of evidence you've been talking about tonight, that they ought to bring an indictment.
He might get that done because you don't have both sides.
But try taking that into a court and, baby, you're dead.
Well, I don't know if you would be dead there.
I don't think that this is going to happen.
I don't think it's going to happen because I don't think Starr is a very tough prosecutor.
And when this first broke, if you recall, I was on your program and I basically said, anybody that thinks this is going to lead to Clinton's resignation or a quick resolution of this, because Starr is at the helm, they don't bet the ranch, don't bet the farm.
And sure enough, everything I said on those opening programs has come true.
Um, and I think one of the reasons you have people like Trent Lott yelling about Star is that they know here's a guy that was given jurisdiction over Travelgate, over Filegate.
He took a, you know, and again go back to Vince Foster, took three years on a case that should have taken a week.
Trent Lott basically said to him, look, do your business or get off the pot.
Right.
Right.
And, and that is completely Again, the Senators know.
They know Star drags things out.
Here's a guy that's making millions of dollars a year at his private practice, representing interests against the Clintons.
He's represented interests for them, including the Chinese government.
He was on their payroll for a while.
Well, he tried to quit once.
Oh, yeah.
He even tried to quit once, and he... I mean, let's remember those circumstances.
He says he's quitting.
And then everybody complains about how he did it and how inappropriate it was.
He did it on a holiday through the university.
He didn't even tell his own deputies.
So then he comes out and he gives a press conference and he says, well actually I'm going to stay because I never consulted with my own deputies on the status of my own investigation and I think I really ought to stay.
I mean those literally were his words.
So this is a guy Who says that he's devoted to this case and then he went through the embarrassing situation a couple of months ago of having, well, of having, you know, the quitting took place in, what was it, early 96?
That's right.
But then he went through the embarrassing situation a few months ago where he had to reimburse the government for his apartment in Little Rock because he wasn't there.
The maximum he was there in a whole year period was Was no more than three days a month.
That's his main office.
Yeah, all I was driving at was that if he's motivated to drag out the investigation and stay where he is, to make all the money, the millions, whatever, then why did he try to quit only under pressure of returning?
Got any insight?
Well, I think he was coming under a lot of criticism at that point.
Well, how about now?
I mean, that was nothing compared to this.
Yeah, but now it would look really cowardly if he ran.
I see.
There was sort of a quiet criticism in Washington from both the right and the left, Carville on one side and then there started to be some murmurings in Congress at that time that was not, I mean, this was not the center of discussion every Saturday or Sunday during all the talk shows when he did resign.
There was a, I guess he felt that the pressure had gotten enough and that he wanted to take a break and then when he saw that it was a firestorm of controversy when he resigned, he decided to stick it out.
Now, who knows what he's going to do, but I think it would be a little bit difficult for him to resign.
However, I think it would be a good thing if he did.
I think it would be good to get somebody who has a clean slate, who's known as being impartial, Who doesn't have as much baggage.
This guy has made so many faulty judgments.
Another special prosecutor?
Well, why not?
Or does he quit and turn his evidence over to some sort of congressional committee?
Well, he would literally have to close his investigation down.
The grand juries would all have to issue reports.
I don't know if he could do that at this point.
What he would, because there are several cases ongoing in the Arkansas Tucker-Thing cooperation period is ongoing.
What he would do is go back to the court and have a successor independent counsel appointed.
And that's been done before with different independent counsels.
And that would not be that unusual.
So, he could do that and there wouldn't be any problem.
And the new independent counsel could be up and running.
There's no reason... He was the Whitewater independent counsel.
And we've already discussed in this program, he never bothered, apparently, according to MacDougall, even looking at connections between Foster and Whitewater.
That's crazy.
And you pointed out you couldn't believe that.
Well, we have all the documents, for example, from the Fisk investigation, and MacDougall wasn't even interviewed for the Fisk investigation when that's by the FBI.
Really weird.
And none of the colleagues of Foster were interviewed and questioned about Foster's connection with David Hale and Madison Guarantee for that investigation.
All right.
And Chris, did you ever see all the President's men?
I bet you did, or read the book, or probably both.
Both, yeah.
Of course.
You remember during the course of that investigation that the editor of the Washington Post was under intense pressure to stop this whole thing?
Intense pressure.
The post, in the middle of it anyway, or when it was getting started, to the middle, was getting slam dunked.
Again and again and again and again.
Under a lot of pressure.
Has your newspaper come under the same kind of pressure from this administration?
Well, and just like during the Watergate period, the Post came under a lot of pressure from other press.
Um...
...
...review has been constantly attacked.
Richard Mellon Scaife, the publisher of my paper, comes under frequent attack.
It's as if somebody's very disturbed that there's one newspaper in the country that's taking a divergent view here on all of this.
So yeah, I mean, there is a parallel.
But no one seems to prove us wrong on anything.
How about you?
You've been audited lately?
Well, the Western Journalism Center and Joe Farrah, they were audited.
It was a very clear political audit.
Mike McCurry, this is up at my website at RuddyNews.com, told the Washington Post that essentially I was the enemy number one.
This was in January when we were breaking the Brown story.
I know, I remember that.
Enemy number one of the White House.
Yeah, and they said that he clearly said he asked to identify a reporter they hated the most, and it was me.
I'm sure it's true.
And Howard Kurtz of the Washington Post called me up and he said, I never heard, in all the time I've covered Washington, this White House or any White House actually name someone like that.
A reporter being singled out.
The White House for years have been encouraging the press to do stories on people they don't
like and I'm one of them, my publisher, the newspaper, the Western Journalism Center,
and they turned over a congressional document, a 331-page document, the Communication Stream
of Conspiracy Commerce, and it was all about Vince Foster.
They're very concerned about the Vince Foster case.
All right, listen, my friend, we're out of time.
We're utterly out of time.
So it's good to have you on the radio every now and then so the rest of America knows that you are still breathing.
Well, I appreciate that.
You are still breathing, right?
I hope so.
And I think that The Vince Foster case is going to be the next that we continue to see.
All right, my friend.
Listen, we've got to scoot.
Thank you very much for the update, and we'll have you on again.
All right, you take care.
All right.
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