John Lear, a retired Air Force colonel and speed record holder, details the MJ-12 conspiracy established by President Truman in 1947 to conceal extraterrestrial technology recovered from Roswell. He recounts violent encounters, including Cambodian soldiers killing aliens sorting human parts and the 1979 Dulcie massacre, while explaining how the government suppresses truth to maintain societal stability and religious control. Lear discusses Bob Lazar's work on Element 115 at S-4, theories that humans are biological containers created over 200,000 years ago, and the possibility of time travel via wormholes, ultimately suggesting that current geopolitical conflicts stem from a hidden war for extraterrestrial resources. [Automatically generated summary]
From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening or good morning.
And welcome to another edition, a Friday night, Saturday morning edition of Coast to Coast A.M. Live talk radio throughout the night time.
Now the largest, fastest growing all-night program in America.
Period.
It's good to be with you.
I promised you John Lear this morning.
And so it shall be.
Put a little tweak in there, didn't I?
All right, John Lear.
It's been a long time since John has been on the program.
John doesn't really do interviews to speak of.
A lot of you don't know who John Lear is, so John Lear is an airline captain.
He is that now.
He's flown 160 different types of aircraft in over 50 different countries in all types of flying.
Experimental test flying, production test flying, airline passenger flying, cargo hauling, movie work, stunt flying, aircraft ferrying, air dropping missions, air racing, and government secret missions of all kinds.
Lear has held 18 world speed records in the Learjet, including speed around the world, and holds the most FAA airman certificates issued to a single individual, which include the airline transport rating, flight instructor, ground instructor, navigator, flight engineer, flight dispatcher, airframe and power plant mechanic, control tower operator, and parachute rigger.
He has been a commercial pilot for 34 years, has been flying for 38 years.
He holds the Professional Air Traffic Controllers Award for Outstanding Airmanship presented in 1968.
He has flown missions worldwide for various government agencies.
He flew in Cambodia, Vietnam, and Laos between 1967 and 1973 and has flown extensively in Europe, the Middle East, Afghanistan, the Far East, and Africa.
As a non-sked pilot, he has over 17,000 hours of flight time, of which over 13,000 hours are in jets.
Lear's father was William P. Lear Sr., who not only helped develop the first car radio, the 8-track stereo, and the automatic pilot for fighter aircraft, but who also developed, of course, the Lear jet, one of the first and most successful of all business jet aircraft.
Lear studied the industrial, studied, rather, industrial design at the Arts Center College in Los Angeles, and was a state Senate candidate in Nevada in 1980.
He has written extensively about airplanes and other subjects, was Middle East correspondent for Combat Illustrated between 1975 and 1977 while stationed in Beirut.
He is an amateur photographer and astronomer, has won several photography awards for pictures taken during his worldwide travels.
In the early 70s, John Lear owned and skippered the 12-meter America's Cup boat Soliloquy out of Marina Del Rey.
His interest in UFOs began after reading Bud Hopkins' book, Missing Time.
Then a chance encounter with a U.S. Air Force pilot who was at a base in England where an extraterrestrial craft landed in December of 1980.
In 1988, John met a government scientist who worked on a back-engineering program of recovered extraterrestrial flying saucers for the Department of Naval Intelligence at a secret base within the Nevada test site known only as S-4.
This scientist not only explained how these craft traveled many times faster than the speed of light, but in March of 1989 took John to a remote desert location to watch the Navy test fly one of those extraterrestrial craft.
John, who no longer gives lectures on the subject of UFOs and has no plans, incidentally, to write a book, is currently a DC-8 captain with a major cargo carrier, has four daughters, and lives in Las Vegas with his wife, Mera Lee.
So that's a pretty full plate for anybody's life, I would say, and a little fuller than mine has been, certainly, and I think most.
In just one moment, we'll get to John Lear, and I think you'll find him more than just a little fascinating.
Now, ladies and gentlemen, here comes John Lear.
John, well, wait a minute, let me put you on hold there and bring you up here.
John, it's been a long time since we've had you on the program.
I mean, this is quite a resume you've got, and that's a lot to do in a life.
And then all of a sudden, at some point, you decided to mix into all of this, which is enough for about two people normally, and you got involved in UFOs.
You've given me this timeline, and I do appreciate it.
I would like to go back over the history a little bit with you, John, and pick your brain about what you know about the incidents that you have listed for me.
Well, the Ken Arnold sightings was when he saw those nine discs flying through the air.
He was out on a search and rescue mission.
And he saw these discs, and when he landed, the reporters wanted to know what he saw, and he said, well, they look kind of like saucers, and that was the that was the first coining of the term flying saucers.
Well, at that time, 1985, when I first got in this, I think then there was over 200 witnesses that were still alive that had either touched or loaded or seen the craft and the bodies.
And a good portion of those people are still alive now.
But there was just overwhelming evidence that this occurred.
There's theories, and I don't think it's so much so important as what happened, the fact that it did happen.
Now, some people say there was two craft and one landed and one crashed on the Magdalena Flats about 100 miles east of Roswell, and then there was a craft or portions of a craft that landed on the Brazil Ranch there near Corona.
But whatever did happen, they certainly collected a large amount of debris, and there was a lot of people involved in this effort.
But what was so interesting is the preparedness of the military to deal with this.
There was no confusion.
They knew exactly what to do.
They knew exactly what they had and that it must be kept a secret.
The information is legitimate, not necessarily the documents.
President Truman certainly formed MJ-12 on September 24th, 1947.
There's enough evidence in government documents that he did have a meeting with certain people and did form this body, which, of course, has been in charge ever since.
The charter of MJ-12 was basically to research the craft, determine what it was made of, whether there was a threat to this country, and to determine what should be done to tell, if at all, the public about what was going on.
People talk, John, about this current administration, the Clinton administration, and how open they've been with the nuclear, you know, the tests that were done, the awful things that were done.
And they have hopes that they will also be open about UFOs and maybe tell us what's going on.
When I first got into what they call ufology, and I think it's a dumb name, but when I first got interested in this and realized the overwhelming impact of what was going on and the cover-up that had been in place for so many years, I got up on my soapbox and did lectures and said, hey, you've got to listen to me.
There's something going on here that we should all be aware of.
And then that was like 1985.
Now in September of 1994, I believe that the government was correct to cover it up.
And as short as three or four years ago, I still thought they were planning to gradually release the information so that the public would not panic, but accept this.
And now I don't think they ever had any intention of doing that.
And I don't think they have today.
And as odd as it may sound, I kind of go along with it.
I believe that really the public does not have a need to know.
They certainly don't have a right to know.
There's so many aspects to this thing that would really disrupt public life as we know it that I don't think they had any intention of doing it.
The only reason that they would maybe be forced to do it is if there was a crash or a landing that absolutely could possibly not be denied.
And they have facilities and teams in place to prevent things like that ever happening.
There have been saucers that have crashed very, very near to cities, and it's been completely covered up.
They have teams that go out, and it's their business to be sure that the public never finds out.
And if this includes relocating personnel or even terminating personnel that have seen this unauthorized, either accidental or on purpose, they go to that extent.
I heard of one that landed, didn't crash, but landed just maybe a few miles outside of downtown Albuquerque.
And these teams are located all over the United States.
They're in underground facilities.
They have helicopters.
They have people who are technicians and heavy equipment operators who have passes and authority to go to any civilian or military base and drive right off with this heavy equipment.
And their job is to go and keep this from being seen.
And one of the first things they do is they have these portable walls that are put in place.
And then they secure the area.
If it's like near a freeway, what they can do is have a heavy truck purposely have a wreck right there to block the freeway several miles from the crash or the landing.
They can also start fires.
They do really interesting things to keep the people from seeing them.
Anyway, they erected these portable walls around this thing, and everybody stood around trying to figure out what to do.
I think it was there for about five hours, and then all of a sudden it just left.
Aztec recovery was a saucer crash in Aztec, New Mexico, and they recovered a few bodies from that one.
It's not sure where they got their first live alien, but they were called, they were named EBE's Extraterrestrial Biological Entities by Dr. Detliff Bronck, who was one of the first members of MJ-12.
At some point in that 47, 48, 49, they recovered their first live alien.
The Mantel incident is separate from that.
That was the P-51 crash piloted by Thomas Mantel over trying to think, it was in Kentucky.
And he got up to about 30,000 feet.
He was on clear communication, and he said, I have it in sight.
It's enormous, a thing of tremendous size.
And then the next thing they knew, this P-51 crashed in the field.
It was completely disintegrated.
There are stories that Mantel's body was not in the crash, but I don't know for sure.
But that was the Mantel incident, and that occurred in the same year as the Aztec recovery.
From between 50 to 100, representing at least five different civilizations.
They're all in cryogenic storage.
One of the interesting things here is in 1972, the only civilian that I know that ever got to see the bodies was Jackie Gleason, and he was a very big supporter of Nixon's, and they were out playing golf down there in Miami in 1972.
And Jackie Gleason, as not many people know, was one of the Tremendous interest in flying saucers, and he had one of the biggest civilian collections of books and memorabilia and pictures and stuff like that.
And this is coast-to-coast AM control at about 35 minutes into the flight.
And the flight this morning is with John Lear, son of Bill Lear, jet pilot, aviator for just about all his adult life, and very much a believer in UFOs, or John would call them, I believe, IFOs identified flying objects, because he says he knows exactly what they are.
So that's what we're going to be doing this morning.
Hope you'll join us.
I do want to issue one brief and severe warning.
Some of the material that we will be getting to this morning will be deeply disturbing to some people out there.
And so if you're the kind of person disturbed by this sort of material, my best advice at this point is to tune out.
Rarely do I offer that up, but I do know that a lot of people are disturbed by this.
We've not yet hit on any of that material, but we're going to.
That was one of the places that they had the cryogenic storage and display for people who were authorized to see the displays, like certain world leaders, certain political people.
There's a lot of things here in Nevada, and there's a lot of secret places, not only the Nevada test site, but there's a lot of other places right close here at Nellis Air Force Base.
There's a place they call Area 2, which is a nuclear bomb storage area, but part of that area is called, I think they call it the Q area or Area Q.
And there's a lot of pieces and bits and parts stored there.
It crashed about 30 miles across the border, and we went over and actually dragged it 30 miles to Del Rio.
And up until maybe 10 or 15 years ago, people that had researched that incident said you could still see the drag marks of where they had pulled it across.
Yeah, they were photographed, and they saw them both on FAA radar and Air Force radar.
As a matter of fact, you can go down to the library and pull out those weekend editions, I think, of the Washington Post, and there's stories all over it.
And then I think the third weekend, the Air Force released a story, and I think it was the largest press conference of the decade, and they said that it had been a temperature inversion which caused this.
Well, the photographs were, of course, confiscated.
They had a very good machine in place for dealing with the press and for dealing anybody who had photographs.
They still do.
Now, once in a while, you'll see a photograph of a bright light in the sky, but you won't see any real good photographs because somehow they get all of those.
I don't know too much about that, but there was one also several years ago that supposedly crashed, and we sent one of our, they have the recovery teams with the C5As, and they go over there and they load it up and bring it back to wherever.
Some say Wright-Patterson, some say out here at Grim Lake.
They didn't want the public to be thinking or be aware about anything in space.
This was before Sputnik had gone up.
And you have to understand at that time the government was just petrified about this whole thing with human mutilations and saucers crashing all over the place.
They didn't want the public thinking about the possibility of anything other than terrestrial stuff.
John, while we're on the subject of mutilations, Linda Howe, who does this show with me on Sunday called Dreamland, concentrates a lot on animal mutilations.
And I just got an article from somebody came in the Associated Press article and with a local kind of angle to it in the Albuquerque Journal dated Sunday, August 14th, so it's brand new.
There are cattle mutilations going on like crazy right now in northern New Mexico, and they really are odd, John.
High heat used, genitals and tongues and so forth and so on, removed, all that sort of thing going on.
And it's going on massively now in northern New Mexico.
Are the cattle mutilations related in any way to the human mutilations?
Well, the interesting thing is, is that area was sealed off from all reporters and researchers, and no pictures were ever released, and no independent inspection was done.
And after the initial interest, there was only one story done by a reporter in Reno.
This reporter never went near the horses or the site, but relied mainly on unsubstantiated reports from the authorities.
And he wrote that the horses were killed by rifle bullets fired from persons who were charged, but then later released for insufficient evidence.
Yeah, I was just trying to find a copy of that of the Las Vegas Sun had a front-page story of this explosion and it occurred, well, it was seen all over Nevada, but apparently a part of it crashed in Mesquite.
And apparently, that was one of the first test flights that our government made in a recovered extraterrestrial craft.
And because of the disastrous outcome of it, there was no more testing until 1972.
But apparently that was us trying to fly one of the extraterrestrial craft.
Now, whether it crashed and it was good enough working order to fly or whether it was turned over to us as one of the ones that Linda Howe talks about at Hill Air Force Base in Utah, everybody wakes up one morning and there's one just sitting on the ramp.
Yeah, that was the Holloman incident was documented by Sandler Productions, the film that came was released in 1973, and that was actually supposedly the first attempt by the government to release information to the public.
And they approached Sandler Films, who was a CIA front in Los Angeles, to write a documentary outlining the history of the UFOs and to end it with the actual film of the actual landing at Holloman.
And that was going to be the final part of the film.
Well, they got everything done.
Emenager himself, Robert Emenacer, who is a close friend, actually had 800 feet of this film in his house.
He did not view the film, but he was given it to by Paul Chartle, who was head of the audiovisual department at Norton Air Force Base.
And Chartle watched the film in its entirety.
And he says there's no question that it was a real film and that it showed these three saucers coming down, one landing, the other two going away, and then three people coming out.
They were humanoid, but slightly different than us.
They had a weapon.
And this film was supposed to be shown at the last part of the actual documentary.
It was called UFO's Past, President, and Future.
At the last minute, the Pentagon withdrew the film and said, we want you to not use this film, but depict the end in terms of it may have happened.
And so if you ever see a copy of this, you'll see Rod Serling, who does the narration, say, let's consider an incident that could happen in the future or already may have happened in the past.
And in fact, it had happened.
And that's how the film got released.
But that was the incident, the Holloman incident that they talk about.
Dulcie was an underground base that's that's still active.
It's on the Califor it's on the Colorado-New Mexico border in the near the town of Dulcie.
It's completely underground.
It's my understanding.
It's about 1,000 to 1,500 feet underground.
And it's where supposedly the CIA and the aliens do joint genetic experiments.
I've been out to Dulcie.
I've talked with Gabe Valdez, who was head of the Highway Patrol, New Mexico Highway Patrol, and his area was Dulcie.
I spent two evenings with him driving around the entire area, heard all his stories about all the craft he'd seen and the evidence that Dulcie was was in fact there.
And there's no question in my mind that it was there and that it still is there.
And there's a story that will come up later, what's called the Dulcie incident, which happened in 1979 when we get up to that part of the timeline.
And I was just reading a story here from one of the researchers, Stringfield, talked about four military personnel who were engineers, and they were flown one night, four hours.
I think they lived back near Wright Pat.
They didn't know where they were being flown.
They had to sign special security oaths.
They say that after four hours they landed and they were blindfolded.
And they were taken out.
They said when we stepped out, it was like being in the desert.
They weren't allowed to lift their blindfolds up.
They went into this hangar, and the lights were turned on.
The blindfolds taken off.
And they said this whole thing was full of all kinds of artifacts.
And there was a curator there.
And they were allowed to inspect, and they were there for four days to inspect and speculate on what these items might be.
And then after the four days, they said they could come back anytime they wanted if they had any fresh ideas, but they were not to discuss this incident with anybody.
Yeah, a friend of mine, matter of fact, Tabitha, was, I think, one of the students there.
And this disc hovered over the school, and the children were sent home, and they remembered this incident quite clearly.
I'm not sure whether it was her or somebody else, but that did happen in 1967.
And along with that, there was a landing at Nellis Air Force Base where a saucer landed, and people got out, and a colonel who was there drew his weapon, and the colonel was paralyzed in place, and the weapon rendered inoperative.
You're looking at your instruments, particularly when you're flying jet aircraft.
Now, at night, when it's more likely you're going to see something, you can't see outside because you've got the glow of the instruments inside, and you have to put your face up to get rid of all the cockpit reflections to do it.
And it's just, it's something that doesn't happen.
Beginning of a holiday weekend, a Friday night, now Saturday morning.
My guest is John Lear, airline captain, and very much a believer in IFOs, identified flying objects.
And we will get back to John in a moment.
Once again, my guest, John Lear, who has flown in jet aircraft for many, many thousands of hours and pressed a little bit, now recalls one incident where he saw something or another.
Well, it was like 1966 or so, and I was descending in a Learjet from, I was on a flight from Wichita to Los Angeles and descending through like 30,000 feet.
And I was headed westbound, and from my left to my right, I saw what I thought at the time was a NASA lifting body, that X-24 or one of those type things.
Remember the one that the $6 million man crashed in?
And it went by, and I mentioned it to the co-pilot.
When I landed, I distinctly remember calling Hank Beard, who was chief test pilot at Learjet, and I said, man, you'll never guess what I saw that day.
And he said, what?
And I said, a lifting body passed me.
And only after, you know, 25 or 30 years do I look back and say how ridiculous that was because under no stretch of the imagination would a lifting body be in the main approach corridor for the Los Angeles International Airport.
There was one that happened in Cambodia and one that happened in Zini, Ohio.
The one at Zini, Ohio was an encounter between the occupants of an alien craft and a U.S. military detachment, and there was 11 American casualties and an unknown number of aliens.
And one of the people, one of the researchers, met a guy who worked at the Off Limitary at Wright Pat who claims to have seen bodies on litters arriving at the base during that timeframe.
you know as i go through the history it is interesting in in one respect all of these occurrences all of these witnesses all of these bodies how can it well cause it isn't really kept secret cuz here we are talking about it but still the official cloak of secrecy remains How can that be?
It really did sound outrageous then, but you know something?
I've been interviewing a lot of ufologists, scientists, scholars, people who have said things that when they say them, John, they suddenly hearken back to some of the early interviews that I did with you.
And I'll say to myself, sometimes out loud, I'll be damned.
You know, I remember John said that, and a lot of people guffawed.
And here we are.
I mean, a lot of that stuff that you told me, John, has been coming back recently.
Okay, now the Dulcie incident I first heard about in 1986 or 1987 when I was invited to be part of a group of researchers who met at Crestone, Colorado, and we just traded information.
And I was handed a letter by one of the guys who knew who had gotten this letter from a person who lived in Las Vegas and said, why don't you research this?
And it talked about this underground base, and it was founded so far out.
But I met with this person, and she had known one of the officers who had worked inside this base and originally told about the massacre at Dulcie.
I further heard a story by a guy named Paul Benowitz, who lived in Albuquerque, who was involved in this, and he told me about it also.
And the story went that in 1979, we had 44 scientists who were being instructed by the aliens in some subject.
I don't know what it was, but they were being instructed at Dulcie.
And for some reason, it was agreed that our security force, our Delta Force, would not carry conventional weapons at any time in this classroom or around this area.
And for some reason, one of the officers walked in with a conventional sidearm, and the alien killed him outright.
Now, how that was done, I don't know.
But on the video, on the monitor, his compatriots, or the Delta Force, saw that he was killed, and they went down en masse to exact revenge.
And it ended up that all 44 scientists and about 66 of the Delta Force were killed.
It was just a complete massacre.
So I just put this in the file.
It was an interesting story.
And it didn't come up again until Bob Lazar, who worked at S4, and we'll get into that later, read a report that documented this massacre.
Now, the only thing different about the report that he read was that in the report he read, the massacre occurred somewhere around Area 51 or Groom Lake.
Well, now remember, this is just speculation of how they handle it.
We've realized now that most of the people that get in this program do not have relatives for Run Wiesner or another.
Either they're orphans or their family has passed away or whatever.
And it's essential that this kind of thing happen or kind of go this way because they don't want to have to take the time to explain away the death of a relative.
They can go to the family and say, look, we're going to give you an annual or monthly stip end, but this is national security, and it's for God and country to mention this again.
Yeah, Bentwaters occurred during three days in the end of December.
We have a United States Air Force base about 70 miles northeast of London called Bentwaters.
At that time, I think it still is, an A-10 base, the Warthog tank killer.
And very strange things happened during those three days, culminating with the, it wasn't a landing, it was an appearance of a very weird aircraft witnessed by General Gordon Williams, who was the base commander, Major Ted Conrad, Colonel Chuck Halt, Larry Warren, and a few others.
But at any rate, the incident did occur, but it was just a story as far as I was concerned.
Many pilots had heard it.
And in 1985, I ran into a friend here in Las Vegas, an Air Force friend that I knew in Laos.
And he was transferring from the regular Air Force to the guard, and he came over to the house, and we started talking about stuff.
And I mentioned, you know, I asked where he'd been based, and he mentioned Bentwaters.
And I said, oh, that's supposedly where that saucer landed in 1980.
This was when Linda Howe was contacted by MJ-12 in order to do a documentary, and they said that they would make available to her many, many thousands of feet of saucers and whatnot.
And they wanted her to write a documentary that would be presented on HBO.
And she contacted HBO, and IBO said, we'll do it, but before we air it, we want a filmed interview with the president, his chief of staff, and his National Security Council saying that this is true.
And MJ-12 essentially led her on a round-robin, so to speak, of different bases and different facilities and all kinds of things for about eight months.
There was no more contact, and only a few years later did she run into somebody who was involved in that, and they said, I'm sorry it turned out the way it did, Linda, but we had no option.
It was an enormous, enormous craft, and it followed him for an hour.
He was on his way from Keflovik, Iceland, to Anchorage, fuel stop in Anchorage, and then on to Japan.
And about an hour out of Anchorage at 33,000 feet this night, this thing appears in front of the aircraft.
And it was not a passenger flight, it was cargo, and so there's only three guys in the cockpit, but they all thought radar had it, returned to be sure it wasn't some gigantic reflection of some sort.
They went down to 29,000 feet to see if it would follow them, and it did.
And then after about an hour, it just left, and they landed, gave their FAA report.
And other than a few comical news stories, they ignored by the press, specifically by Aviation Week and Space Technology, who is our premier aviation magazine, doesn't give it one word, not even a sentence.
Well, for all your flying, John, and the one incident you have had that may have been something like that, you must talk to all kinds of other captains, lots of friends in the industry.
We're getting up toward the modern day here, but first, let us look at 1987 and particularly the Gulf Breeze sightings because that's still going on, John.
It's still going on.
We're getting photographs.
There have been recent photographs, one, which is a very picture.
Well, I first heard about it in 1987 when the Channel 4, I believe it was down there, put out the documentary, and it had Ed Walters' film that he took out the back door of this craft hovering behind the tree line there, just over the tree line.
And it was tremendously interesting.
There was no doubt in my mind that from the videotape that this thing occurred.
But there was so many people jumped on it as a hoax, and they just did back flips to try and prove it was a hoax.
But in my opinion, it was not.
It was the true thing.
And Ed Walters just took a tremendous amount of flack over the years for showing this film and for saying the things he did.
He sold his house, and the people who moved in found in the attic a model of what he had videotaped made out of, I think he's a designer and architect, out of some architectural drawings that he made.
Unfortunately, the people who tried to hoax this used architectural drawings that were dated after, substantially after, this incident.
Oh, well, and yet that and the guys who tromped around the field in England and any other story, weak as it may be, John, that seems to make people laugh at all this and say, aha, see, what a hoax.
Those stories stick like glue.
Fifty people can look up in the sky and see a saucer or see a craft and one stupid story comes along and it blows away all that good.
That was the hypothesis that I wrote in December of 1987 when I felt really strongly that people had to know what we're here and they have a deal with our government to provide help in the security and the secrecy of the overall program in return for advanced technology, some of it weapons, some of it other technology.
And it was just something that I wrote then, which became known as the John Lear hypothesis.
Since then, I've modified several of the views, but essentially it's the same.
Deep into it, and that's when I gave the lectures at the Spring Valley Library, and that's when usually I think they had seating capacity for 300, and they'd never had a speaker that drew over, say, 40 or 50, maybe 60 people.
And they had 700 people show up every time I came to speak.
And it was then that one of the guys who attended the lectures wanted to borrow some tapes and came over to my house and brought with him a young scientist named Bob Lazar.
And Bob Lazar had formerly worked at in New Mexico at the LANL what am I trying to say there, what laboratory?
I don't know how I could forget that name, but he worked there as a scientist, and he just didn't believe in UFOs at all.
I mean, it just it was it was a joke to him.
And we watched some tapes, and I loaned him some tapes.
And over a period of a few months, he became more and more suspicious, not so much of the evidence of the existence of UFOs, but of the strange ways in which the government tried to cover up or suppress some of the information.
At any rate, there came a point where he had not been in the scientific community for working with it for several years, and he decided that he'd try and get in and see if he could find out if it was really true.
So he made application to first of all, he called Dr. Teller, who he had known from New Mexico.
And over a process of, I think it was a couple of months, he was invited to go to work up at the test site.
Now, the first now I knew that he was getting interviewed, but I didn't know when he was going.
And then in December of 1988, he came up to my house and I'm writing out some checks and he's sitting in front of my desk.
And I said, what's going on, Bob?
And he said, it was like about 7.30 or 8 in the evening.
He said, I saw a disc today.
I thought I didn't hear him clearly.
I said, what?
And he said, I saw a disc today.
And I said, theirs are ours.
And he said, theirs.
And I said, oh, my God, did you go to the test site?
And he said, yeah, I just got back.
And I said, well, then what are you doing here?
I said, obviously, they followed you, and you're not supposed to be talking.
Why don't you work up there for a while and then tell us what's going on?
He said, no, he said, you've taken such a lot of flack over this that I think you deserve to know.
And then he launched into what he had seen during the time he was up there, which included a disk and some of the technology and a lot of the briefing reports.
And we talked for about three hours.
As a matter of fact, it was three hours and 17 minutes.
Because when he got home, there was a knock on his door and there was two security guys there who asked him to come along that they had some questions.
They took him downtown to an office there and they said, what were you doing at John Lear's house for three hours and 17 minutes?
And we had already cooked up a story where I was filling out a log page for his wife, who was a pilot.
And it went from there.
Anyway, he worked up there for about four or five months and would occasionally come by and say what he'd seen.
Bob's job at S4 was to, he was a scientist, he was to back engineer one of the extraterrestrial vehicles.
In other words, his job was to back engineer the propulsion of the saucer, find out how it worked, and find out if we could duplicate it.
But he said there was only about 20 people, maybe 15 or 20 people, working up there, and they didn't really have the resources or the equipment to do a proper job.
And one of the reasons he went public was his disagreement of how the project was being handled.
He felt that it should be more spread around, that people with the actual talent, more people with actual talent should be allowed to participate in this project.
But at any rate, on March 21st, 1989, I was over at his house, and it was a Tuesday, and he said, John, they're going to test fly one of the craft tomorrow.
Do you want to go see it?
And I said, well, how can we do that?
And he said, well, I know a place near Groom Lake we can drive and we can not be within the confines of the restricted area and we can watch it.
So he and I and I think his wife and Gene Huff who was the one who introduced me to Bob, drove up there and I said, you know, when do they test?
He said, well, right at sunset.
And it's always on Wednesday evening because statistically that is the time of least travel in that particular area, Highway 375.
So we go up there and unload.
We had my motorhome and I had my Celestron 8 telescope, which is a very powerful telescope.
And we were unloading it.
And here this thing comes up from behind the mountains.
And they're watching it and I'm trying to focus it in.
And very difficult because I had the 90-degree objective in it.
And up is down and left is right.
But finally I got it.
And there was no doubt in my mind I was looking at a real flying saucer.
It was kind of yellowish orange and it was radiating something.
It was glowing and it settled back behind the mountains.
And for all the people that try and discredit Bob and say, no, he didn't work there.
No, he's just making this all up.
You know, the fact is, he told me a day in advance exactly what fly within, you know, plus or minus for myself.
So unless you think I'm in on the hoax, you know, he's telling he did work there.
So through all these years of doing the interviews with you, John, as you've investigated and I've done radio, I have yet to see you be involved in any profit aspect of this.
And you just haven't gone after it.
And I'm sure you could have.
I mean, your name is everywhere in UFO journals, and you have been at the very center of it, so you could have capitalized on it at any point.
No, I just wanted to find out what the truth is, if that was possible, just for my own interest.
You know, I love flying, and that's my business, and I do it, you know, 18 days a month, and then I have 12 days off, and I go out on my days off and take care of my lawn and the rest of the things I have to do.
I'm not totally absorbed as it's very easy to get in this field, and your whole life is consumed with chasing down every little lead.
I think I got to pretty much as much as we're ever going to find out, and that was enough for me.
I said, when I look, I said, if it's, you know, I've tried not to involve the company at all.
I said, how about if I just not give any more lectures and we take a look at this maybe 90 days down the line and you can see that I've been true to my word and they said no, this is it.
And so they gave me three months' pay if I would sign a statement that I would never sue them, which I did because I couldn't afford to go very long without a paycheck.
I lost another job that I really would have liked to have had that involved the Air Force and NASA.
It was a project that I really wanted to do, and I was actually hired by the contracting company, but they called me up one day and the contracting officer and said, John, I don't know what you did to irritate the Air Force and NASA, but when we submitted your name as one of the pilots, they said not only no, but hell no.
This is really the only thing that I ever do is whenever you call because you've been really fair with me over the years, and it's just kind of nice to come on and chat once in a while.
If the government couldn't cover up Watergate, how could they cover this up for 45 years?
Well, the Watergate episode was an inside job to get Nixon out of office, just as the assassination of President Kennedy was, but with a little more, but not much more, tact.
Now, that doesn't mean I agree with Nixon, but that was an inside job.
The fact is the government can cover up anything they want to if it's important enough, and I can assure you that if you are reasonably well informed, that you only know about 5% of what there is to know.
If what you have to say is really true, John Lear, then why doesn't the government stop you?
Number one, it would only add credibility to my story, and number two, I don't reach enough people for it to make any difference.
The belief systems are too well locked in for me to be of any great threat at all.
Without hardware, there is simply no proof, regardless of the number of eyewitnesses.
It's true.
Why wouldn't any of the astronauts or military officers come forward and tell the truth?
And the answer is for the simple reason that all of us are dependent on money, whether through current employment or retirement pay for our very existence.
For an astronaut or military man to come forward with the truth would net him three minutes on hard copy and the rest of his retirement working at a 7-Eleven.
Your Dan Rathers and your Tom Brokaws and your Ted Coppels, why wouldn't they come forward and tell the truth?
And for the very simple reason that they are glorified teleprompter readers, they have very little to say about what they are going to say.
They can't come in one fine day and say, tonight, I'm going to expose the UFO cover-up.
There are just too many people over him with the best of his interests, such as the station license, to let him do that, notwithstanding the fact that all he has is words and no hardware.
Neil Armstrong, on the occasion of the anniversary of the Apollo mission to the moon, was at the White House about three weeks ago now, I guess, four weeks ago, something like that.
Anyway, Neil Armstrong rarely does public appearances, rarely has anything to say, but when he does, wow.
What he said, and I took this quote directly from the NBC Evening News, was as follows, quote, and he said this at the White House, quote, there are great ideas undiscovered, breakthroughs available to those who can remove one of truth's protective layers.
There are places to go beyond belief, end quote, Neil Armstrong.
And that's one of the ways in which they keep this secret is through it's called pain, drug hypnosis, where when they tell you this stuff, they give you a briefing and it involves pain, it involves drugs, it involves hypnosis, so that it doesn't bother you that much, but it doesn't always work on everybody.
And they know they have this knowledge, and it's hard to know something with the ramifications of this kind of thing and not be able to be able to tell somebody.
John, just before we go to the phones, you have said, and this really is very different than a lot of ufologists today, that you've come to the conclusion that while you were digging in earlier years so that the world might know, you now don't think we ought to know, or that we have a right to know, or that it would be good for us to know, or how do you explain that and why?
This is something that, as irritating as it might be, it's none of their business.
There's nothing they can do to influence or modify it in any way.
It's best they just go on with their lives and pay their taxes, find something they enjoy, boating, sailing, growing lawn or something like that, and get on with their life because there's no reason to know this.
And if they knew the true ramifications of this, it would bother them.
It would eventually result in the breakdown of society.
Sounds like if the U.S. has some of this technology that it really wouldn't be too big of a problem being confronted with other nations like Russia with their type of military.
Do you think this type of technology can be implemented in such cases like war or anything like that?
And what that was was they put a rock in an anointed chamber and gave it a pulse like hello.
And the rock absorbed the vibrations, and by measuring the vibrations, about a half a second later, measuring the vibrations, they could pull out the word hello.
Well, in 25 or 30 years later, what they have now is a means to beam into a room and pulling off, measuring the vibrations that have been given any of the crystal structure like glass or windows or any like that and pull out a conversation that was held seven days ago.
It's kind of like when you say this, and I guess we had to cover it, John, but when you say this, it's like putting a box on the table that says, do not open this box, and then just leaving it there, and everybody who comes past will inevitably open the box.
On the wildcard line, you're on the air with John Lear.
Good morning.
unidentified
Hi.
I'm calling from the Bay Area, San Francisco Bay Area.
Yes, sir.
I can prove right now that what Mr. Rear is saying is the opposite of the truth, because the U.S. government is not covering up information about the existence of extraterrestrial life.
Government intelligence agencies have been spreading the rumor that aliens are among us to UFO researchers, and this has been documented by Jacques Valet in his book, Revelations.
For example, in 1983, the proven disinformation agent Richard Doty at Kirtland Air Force Base invited Linda Howe to that Air Force Base and showed her these alleged secret documents claiming aliens among us.
Then in 1985, Jacques Villais and J. Allen Hyenek were invited to Norton Air Force Base by some generals there and told that aliens are among us.
And I think it's all a lie, and I have a reason for it.
You said you had proof, sir, so go ahead and lay it out.
unidentified
The proof is what I just told you.
And if you just get Jacques Villais' book, Revelations, that proves that the government isn't hiding it.
It's pushing it on UFO researchers.
And the reason for this reverse psychology disinformation campaign was stated by Stanton Friedman when he said that a belief in alien life would cause people to lose their faith in the value of nation-states and lead to the acceptance of world government, which is exactly what the power elite who control the government wants, since their multinational corporations have the most to gain from globalism.
Yeah, Element 115 is the power source for these extraterrestrial craft.
We've been able to synthesize up to like 106.
But there is an element on up the line that is 115.
And by pumping protons into 115, it becomes 116, which immediately decays.
And what the result of the decay is, is antimatter.
And when antimatter is mixed with matter, it's 100% conversion of matter to energy, which is a very, very large explosion.
And what they do is they control this explosion to create heat.
And also out of this reaction, they pull off the gravity A wave without going into details, they use to propel themselves across the universe that speeds hundreds of times faster than the speed of light.
I'm going to ask Mr. Lear about the three different kinds of aliens.
I did a subscribe to a newsletter, and it talks about all the government research and the different types of ships are different aliens from different sectors in the universe.
And there's the reptilian form, the insectoid, and the human type.
Now, Mr. Lear, you say there are things you don't want to talk about for religious purposes, but I wanted to tell a story that I believe is true.
All the cosmonauts reported seeing these huge angelic-like beings with their arms crossed and a smile on their face like they knew something was going to happen.
And that was before Chernobyl blew up.
And John Glenn reports seeing something on Freedom Pheasant flight.
I once wondered, and as have many people, and I'm going to make you tell me it's not true again, whether you and Mr. Lazar have thought of trying to construct something to traverse time.
There's also an increased activity down at Holloman, which seems to be just the new secret aircraft we've got.
But yeah, there definitely doesn't seem to be as much testing as there used to be.
Just after Bob and I started talking about this, you used to be able to go up to test site and see all kinds of weird stuff, but there just aren't any sightings anymore.
Yeah, and I just don't really understand what the big deal is because, like, in 1980, there was at least 30 AAOs, which are air access-only areas in the United States, at which, you know, all this weird stuff went on.
So, you know, Groom Lake is just one of a number of facilities.
No, but that's an interesting thing, a dark light.
I haven't heard that before.
unidentified
Yeah, you've got to read the Tibetan Book of the Dead.
And I would recommend people like you to get in touch with people like, say, the Dalai Lama and talk to them about this kind of stuff and see what they think.
Well, all right.
People that are realized or that have studied mystical or metaphysical stuff that are, you know, that are in that genre.
Yeah, I never in my wildest dreams, when I started getting into this, had any remotest hope of finding out as much as I did.
And when I found out as much as I did, it was just it was very interesting, and it was in one way extremely satisfying, but I didn't think that I'd find out much more than I did, so I continued on my life.
And like I say, there's a lot of guys that just keep plugging along.
You will affect the immediate sphere or time that you commit this act in, but somehow time will bend back in on itself and everything will self-correct and you'll still be there somehow.
Sure, if you want a tape of this program, the first two hours we spent on a very careful chronicling of UFO history, John's involvement in it, and all the rest of it, you can get a tape by calling right now, Area Code 503-664-7966.
Let me give that again.
Area code 503-664-7966.
And on the East of the Rockies line, you're on the air with John Lear.
Well, in answer to your question, let me tell you what Whitley Streiber said about that when he was abducted, and he's absolutely horrendously terrified, and he's screaming, and he's saying, Oh, God, oh, God, help me.
God, God, please help me.
And the little greys are looking down, and very coolly they said, Why do you call for your God?
For people that call up, they've read a book or they're real religious.
They obviously haven't been following some of the stuff covered on this show.
The cover-up, the military involvement, politics, everything.
You seem to be right on.
I respect the fact that you don't want to go into the religion aspect because I've read a little bit, I think, of what you've outlined there in a couple of different books.
But again, the astronauts, the whole thing of keeping quiet, people can't understand why the mill, why aren't they talking about this?
And that this stuff really is happening.
I'm getting announcements on our station here in KSD that say this is a warning.
This is not the views of this station.
It is shocking.
It's very shocking.
A lot of this is.
Except my religious beliefs are simply I believe above all else, above anything else, that there is the God, God, the creator of all things.
And why can these things be happening?
God takes care of other elements of nature in accordance with the plan.
Why can this not be somewhat along an overall plan?
well the question was really he walked around at six ways from sunday but he's asking why can't uh... there be of the god we all know and not we all know but many of us think is there uh... who's in control and who's just well let me tell you i'm not properly asking In other words, why do God and UFOs and the aliens have to be mutually exclusive?
They don't, but let me tell you a story that Bob Lazar told me once.
We're talking about the universe and the ramifications of it all, and he's telling you about the theory that the universe expands until it can't go any further, and then it starts contracting.
And time reverses, and everything comes down to its original size, less than an atom size, and then starts spreading out the other direction, whereas things only exist that travel faster than speed of light.
And so we came to the conclusion now, whoever made that, that's God.
And I was wondering if he could give us some comments about the other two areas of S4 that Mr. Lazar talks about, about the physics of time travel and the charged particle beams.
And for the next 30 minutes, 30 minutes more, we're still going to restrict the toll-free line to east of the Rockies.
We're going to give it another 30 minutes because of the length of the pre-interview before we got to the phone call.
So 30 more minutes east of the Rockies on the 800 line.
All right.
John Lear is my guest, pilot, experienced pilot, many thousands and thousands of hours in the air, and believer in IFOs, identified flying objects.
John's coming back right now.
John, there is a way people can get the videotape that the caller mentioned about Bob Lazar's experiences and his explanation of what these craft are and how they work.
It's called the Lazar Tape and Excerpts of the GovernmentGot Bible, which is a chronological account of government UFO activity details and Bob's experience working with recovered flying saucers for the Department of Naval Intelligence.
It explains the propulsion, construction, and details of where the aliens are from, including what Dr. Keller has to say about Bob Lazar.
Yeah, I'd like to say something about the Bible, one of the most important books in the history of mankind.
The New Testament, like much of the Old Testament, is in many places a greatly altered version of the original accounts on which it is based.
In addition, probably less than 5% of all that Jesus and his original followers taught is found in the Bible.
Many of these changes and deletions to the New Testament were made by special church councils.
The editing process began as early as 325 A.D. during the First Council of Micia and continued well into the 12th century.
For example, the Second Synod Church Council of Constantinople in 553 A.D. deleted from the Bible Jesus' reference to reincarnation, an important concept.
unidentified
Yeah.
I just wanted to be sure that I got that on, about the bright light, not the dark light.
Well, because, according to Whitley, if you go to the bright light, you have made a conscious choice of which direction to go.
And supposedly, according to him, at that point, if you go to the white light, the graves or whoever's in charge of this thing can decide what to do with you.
Now, they can either send you back into another body or they can put you in the black box.
Now, the reason that I wouldn't choose the white light is I don't want to spend what Whitley says is anywhere from 12 to 40,000 years in the black box.
Yes, he filed his report in 1969 when he ran for president.
One of his platforms was, I believe in UFOs because I personally see one, and if I am elected president, I will see that all information about UFOs is turned over to the public.
Naturally, when he became president, we didn't hear one word, and that's because the presidents are brief to a certain extent on the problem.
Yes, I read both books, and, you know, what more can I say?
She definitely is very religious, and she had a very religious experience during her abduction.
I think that whoever they are who pick us up catered to those specific beliefs.
unidentified
Oh, yeah, that was basically my question.
I didn't know if your beliefs followed along those lines because they were sort of similar to the lights and putting people back in the bodies and that sort of thing.
And I was just curious if you knew about that and if you had any thoughts on it.
And in 1952, I read a book by a man named Gutajev called All in Everything, and there he talked about the spaceship karna going all over the place.
And I went to Europe to work with a Gutjev group.
But in 1955, we went on the air with commercial television in London, and we had a a couple there, and I can't remember their name, but we had a half-hour show, and the man who was interviewing them was really trying to break them down that they were phonies, which he couldn't, of course.
After that, I invited him home.
We went to dinner, went to my place, and we talked about Gurzjev in his book.
And these people were very authentic, and I do remember the name.
They were a married couple, and we went to a few of the group meetings in London then.
This was back in 1955, 56.
And these were all what I call good, wholesome people, not phony, baloney type people.
And of course, I lost touch with them then.
But I wonder if he's familiar.
John, are you familiar with Gurdjieff's book, All in Everything?
Gurdjieff, G-U-R-D-J-I-E-L-F, Georgius Ivanovich Gurdjieff.
And he wrote the book way back in the 40s called All in Everything.
And as I said, then subsequently, when I was with this couple in London, and I don't remember their name, but I remember going to several groups, and this was back in the 50s.
John, I have a young man who has what he believes is an alien creature, the body of an alien creature, which is now dried.
It's pretty good size.
It's very hard to describe, John.
I've got very good 35-millimeter photographs of it, and I've got a videotape of it as well.
I'm getting them scanned and put up on the internet probably by the middle of next week.
The thing looks the closest I can come, John, is it almost looks bat-like, but it's not a bat.
It's pretty good size.
It's a couple of feet tall, two or three feet tall, and it is very, very weird.
Now, without seeing it, it would be impossible for you to comment, but it supposedly came from Puerto Rico, where there's been quite a bit of UFO activity, hasn't there?
Well, basically, what I was calling about is just to throw out another theory here, as these things do happen, is essentially, you know, like, first off, I don't really buy that semi-alien creatures really buying using people as food because the simple fact it would be easier to kidnap a group of people to and then breed them for as cattle, would it not?
Well, anyways, some of the other things, like you said, like when the encounter them in Cambodia The Special Forces had firefight with them.
It would be a very good place to collect human bodies to study the anatomy because you wouldn't have to worry about taking them and then probably bringing them back and things like that.
I mean, when you look at the earth, it's a hustle and bustle of activity and growth and beings and intelligence, and it's a contrast to everything around it, right?
Yeah, their handiwork being the breeding of the human race over 200,000 years in which they made 65 separate corrections to make us what we are today, which they refer to as containers.
You know, I doubt if the experiment is over.
I think that, you know, it's continuing on.
Each of these separate corrections, they have to, you know, when they bring in the new model, they have to recall the old model.
And they do that with, you know, mass plagues, floods, gyroscopic perceptions of the earth, which I might mention, all this EPA and BLM and stuff about, you know, carefully burying our trash.
You know, every 23,000 years, this earth rotates on its axis and takes up a different rotation, and it essentially cleans everything out.
So why are we so worried?
We're about 1,000 years overdue for this rotation.
You're not having some of that famous New Mexico Tao's hum right now, are you?
unidentified
No, I do hear strange noises once in a while, and they sound like a diesel truck in the distance or machinery clanging around, but some of it I think I'm hearing construction going on on the base.
Now, was your sightings within the Montzana weapons storage area, Coyote Canyon?
unidentified
Well, I was on the highway driving home, and this was a large orange glowing sphere that went over my car, and it was heading due south into that area.
As a matter of fact, when I first got into this, Paul Benowitz had just lived in the Four Hills section there, and he set up in 1980 a videotape which ran 24 hours a day.
He'd change it every eight hours, and he got some spectacular photos of dome-shaped objects taking off from the Montana weapons storage area.
Well, I sometimes wonder if they're saying that there's less action going on up in Nevada.
One worked for the contractor, and the other worked for somebody in the architectural design firm that built all these underground bunkers back in the early 80s out there.
And they said that these bunkers were as big as football fields, solid concrete, they were huge, and of course, nobody knew what they were being built for.
Once again, here I am, and I want to repeat, we spent the first two hours of the program, if you didn't get it, doing a pretty thorough examination of the history of UFOs and the beginning of John's involvement.
And if you want a copy of this program, the way to get it, get your pencil, please, is to call Area Code 503-664-7966.
Yes, Mr. Lear, I believe in the Bible and like to talk to you about the Nephilim and how that could correlate into these things that you and Art have been describing and also the fact that Linda Howe reported on these cattle mutilations that the maggots on flies wouldn't touch the carcasses for days.
Now that's something that seems a bit unnatural to me.
And I'd like to ask you, throughout the Bible, there is a conflict of good and evil.
And these things that you guys are describing do not sound very good to me.
I think that because we couldn't imagine an advanced society not being warm and fuzzy.
We figure, well, shoot, you know, after all that civilization thousands of years ahead of us, they certainly must have worked out their problems and just want to come down and help us and cure cancer and AIDS and help us get to, you know, cure our food problem and all the rest of it.
I mean, certainly reinforced by Steven Spielberg and his close encounters and all that.
And I wanted to ask John what he thought of the possibility that the deaths at Dulcie were somehow related to the introduction or the further introduction of the AIDS virus and the population, and also what his feelings are about the government being somehow involved in the development of the AIDS virus.
Well, as I've said before, there's no question in my mind that the government developed it.
The specific doctor, the Navy doctor that actually did the research, I believe his name was R.M. Donner.
And, yeah, we made it.
What it was for, I don't know.
Some people say it was to eliminate or decrease the population, but certainly there ought to be better ways to do it because AIDS takes a long time to affect, and also it causes a lot of suffering.
I think our hospitals would be overtaxed before it would start reducing the population.
So when people say, well, it's just the government trying to reduce the population, possibly, but you'd think even they would be able to figure out a quicker way to do it.
Well, I know that there was congressional testimony.
It's on the record, John, an inquiry of some scientists about whether such a thing could be created that would produce or suppress the human immune system.
I think most of us, most of us believe that a power far greater than ourselves had something to do with this.
It's just too complex.
All right, on the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
Good morning.
unidentified
Okay, hi, good morning.
I'd like to say that just out of common sense, and it's one entity and stuff like that, there probably is, even if there is one entity, I'm not saying there probably is, but even if there is, and I go through life and have to go see Human Judgment Day, I'm going to appeal to a higher court because he's got peers.
I mean, it would have to be that.
But anyway, on this time travel.
Yes.
Okay.
Time travel, the way you're looking at it, I think time travel back in the past, there's no way.
You can see time from back in the past, but you'll never be able to travel it.
You'll only see the light from it.
And as far as in the future, you might be able to do that too, but you'll never be able to come back to your own time.
I mean, I don't understand how you think you can come back to a time that you can go forward unless you're talking about this gravitational thing where you hold off and you're just thinking you go in forward in time and you're never leaving the time that you're letting your time stand still while you're gone.
Oh, I will tell you this, that in my brief career as a ufologist, I've made several predictions, two or three of them, and they've all turned out false.
So I may be a good researcher, but I'm a terrible prophet.
I think that what he's trying to do is figure out how they can get from place to place without violating the speed of light.
Because they don't have access to the real information of how it works, they invent stuff like wormholes.
But the way it works is called the instantaneous propagation of gravity.
Science doesn't know it yet, but gravity is instantaneous, and there's two forms of it, A and B.
And basically, to travel hundreds of times faster than the speed of light, what you do is generate a very powerful beam of gravity and pull space towards you.
Space is actually a fabric.
It can be pulled this way and that.
We think of it as a nothing.
We think it is something that has just one hydrogen atom per square meter.
You know, in the fear that some people have of what John is talking about, they must understand that whatever experience that we have as humans or humanoids or whatever, it's a very good experience.
Soul's Purpose00:07:12
unidentified
And obviously, whoever and whatever has created us, and whatever use that we have for them, we have use for ourselves, too.
And that there's such, I mean, there's so much love and joy in life, opposed to the diversity, which there's plenty of that, too.
But the mind has to, the mind that was given to us and the spirituality that we have needs to be used.
And I think that's what he's talking about when he says, go on and live your life, even though you have more information.
You get to make your life and have fun and do whatever you want.
unidentified
Right.
Can you tell me if there's in the other dimensions of what you're talking about in the 70 or so groups, do they show any sign of their own spirituality?
I'm not talking about religion here at all, but of a separate spirituality or more intense spirituality or just different?
It seems that when you talked about, and one thing I'd like you to expand upon a little bit, is when you refer to somehow humans were considered to be containers.
And to elaborate on that, within the MJ-12 intelligence community, there's a great disdain for elected and appointed officials, which is why the president or the Congress or any other appointed officials don't know very much.
Security clearances work like this.
The lowest security clearance you can get is top secret.
Above that, there's 28 levels of which is called top secret crypto, and they run through 1 through 28, 28 being the highest.
Above that, there's 10 names, like Umbra, Amber, Ultra, the top being Majestic.
Now, the President of the United States has a clearance about top secret crypto 17.
He doesn't know very much.
He doesn't need to know very much.
He's kind of a figurehead.
So they tell him, you know, a little bit.
They tell him probably that there's recovered vehicles and that they maybe have a dead body or so, but he doesn't know the whole story.
He doesn't need to know the whole story to perform his job.
Are you aware that the patriarchs in the early part of the second century in their letters and apologetics had already included almost all the verses of the New Testament in their letters?
unidentified
This is more than a hundred years before Constantine.
And so that we can find almost all the New Testament just in their letters of writing to each other in the apologetics.
And that there has been a copy of the whole book of Mark found in Egypt, dated at the 125 after Christ, after A.D.
And when they calculate how long it would have taken to get that deep into Egypt, it would have existed before the turn of the century.
Okay, now the changes that I'm talking about are 325 A.D. during the First Council of Nicaea.
I know the date, and I'm saying that almost the complete New Testament is already found in the writings of what we call the patriarchs, some of them which were disciples of John, in the first part of the second century.
And so if we already have the New Testament in letters written back and forth, plus we have a whole book of Mark found in around 120, in the archaeologist's date of 125 A.D., then you have even secular historians agreeing that Luke, who wrote the Gospel of Luke in the Acts, is a first-rate historian and had to have been there.
unidentified
And so I'm wondering where you come up with this conclusion.
I've heard this theory before and questioned people about it, and they insist on it.
But then when you present them with the fact that the New Testament can be recovered from documents before the time they say they were changed, they just kind of go on and don't discuss anymore.
Well, they may be recovered, but they're not in the King James Version.
unidentified
Well, that has nothing to do with the reliability.
When you do textual analysis, it's not based on when the King James is written.
It's based on the number of manuscripts and how old they are and how much they change over a period of time.
Even for the Old Testament, we even have in the Dead Sea Scrolls a good part of the book of Isaiah recovered that we find has changed very little with what we have today.
I'm just saying your conclusions.
You say you do careful research, and apparently you didn't know that the New Testament was known and can be found in manuscripts older than before Constantine was ever born.
That's correct.
I'm just saying that they didn't make it to the King James Version and most people have access to that.
These manuscripts still exist, and we can compare them to the King James Version.
Now, as for science, I'm always upset when people talk about science, but ignore the fact that when they start talking about things that are supernatural, they still include it science.
Now, if someone comes from another time into this time dimension and brings their matter with them, they have added matter and broken the law of conservation of energy and matter.
I'll explain that in a second, but I just want to say something to John Lear.
John, everyone around here says he worked for Air America, and I don't want to go into that.
About the sonar sound, three sentences.
Thanks to Congressman Sam Farr, a sonar device that might have threatened the environment has been indefinitely delayed.
The Scripps Institute of Oceanography and the Defense Department's Advanced Research Projects Agency have stopped the project's development in order to conduct an EIS.
The $35 million device, part of the Acoustic Thermometry of Ocean Climate, ATOC program, would be placed off the coast of Point Sir in the Monterey National Marine Sanctuary.
Okay, well, let's suppose that's true, and I can't say anything different than that.
I would like to say also, you mentioned the book, The Gods of Eden.
There has recently been released on the Internet an excellent, in my opinion, review of this book that says that it's pretty much based on L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology.
I don't think so because I studied scientific biology for a very short time, and I don't think there's any correlation there.
unidentified
Well, thanks a lot for your time, and uh I've uh been keeping up with your information since about 1988, and um I hope it's not all over but the screaming.
Oh, because um I read a book uh about ten years ago called The Cosmic Trigger, Final Stickers of the Illuminatas, and how they were going to duplicate the second coming of Christ with the with the alien deal that people would believe that they were going to be saved by aliens.
And Mossad, who was running the operation, didn't want to send the 707s in, which I was flying.
So they canceled the operation later.
I think it was like six or eight months later, they ran it with another airline that was out of somewhere like NASA or NASA or someplace like that and ran it from the Persian Gulf, like Dubai or one of those countries, directly into Iran so they didn't have to go around another country like we did, Turkey.
We had to go through Turkish airspace.
And the deal was that we would drop every other load or give Turkey every other load that went in in permission for flying over their airspace.
Well, in that movie and in descriptions of Roswell, there is a number of witnesses, John, who say that a piece of material from one of those craft was held, and they showed it in Roswell, and you could crumple it up, and it would spring right back out again.
Well, that covers most of the alphabet agencies anyway.
On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
Not a lot of time.
Hi.
unidentified
Good morning, Art.
Good morning, Tom.
Morning.
About a couple, two, three months ago, my wife and I were looking at the telescope.
We had a really good view.
And in the outer layer of the moon, there was like a blue half-moon.
But there also looked to be sort of like a craft that was.
I never talked, my wife and I don't want to talk to too many people about it, you know, because we don't want to be accused of being nuts and all that kind of stuff.
But is that really possible?
Or do you think maybe that was more like a reflection of maybe the sun or of the picture we've got?
You know, they've been Several documents said that they are deceptive.
And I was going to tell the previous caller that a friend of mine had seen, was looking up one morning ready to go fly, and he saw a saucer one-twentieth the size of the moon just go across it.
And while we were talking here, I had a reference that I was going to read, but I can't find it.
A NASA technical document that documents about 600 different types of weird phenomena that was observed on the moon between the year 1600 and now as far as blinking lights, flashing lights, weird shadows, all kinds of stuff.
Yeah, she was saying that somebody had, you know, they have these secret vaults where they hold high-level discussions that are soundproofed and monitored and swept all the time.
When he talks in some of his contact papers about the Pleiades being the oldest group of visitors on the Earth, and they're actually from the same ancestors as we are, the question I have is they also believe in reincarnation and they don't really believe in religion as such, but more as creation.
And they believe in the good in man and whatnot.
The question I have is they don't like us dealing with the graves because they seem to think that they are a negative life for us.
Yeah, I heard that.
And why apparently they came and offered their help to the American leadership at one time or another, and it wasn't accepted.
Well, I'm just kind of wondering, is that just because they weren't giving they weren't offering technology?
John, I want you to give some advice to the young ufologists out there.
A lot of people are absolutely lit afire by all of this, and they're going to travel down the same road that you traveled down.
And you've now reached a point where you've said you're fatalistic about it, and the best thing we can all do is go out and live our lives and enjoy our lives.
What would you say to the young ufologists out there, John?
Well, of course, they're not going to pay any more attention to that than I did when people told me that, you know, when I first started getting into it.
A few years back, a bunch of my friends and I, we were out in the front yard and we saw a great green light beam going across the sky and it was solid.
And it had a beginning and it had an end to it, like water coming out of a hose when you first turn it on and shut it off.
Yeah.
Like a big plasma beam going through the sky.
And it was a good, like, 30 to 40 feet in diameter.
And all that lasted a good three, four miles going through the sky.
It was like a big arc.
And I was wondering if you had any knowledge of what that might be.
John, I wanted to ask you a question very quickly.
You spoke of uh William Bramley's book, Gods of Eden, yeah, where he describes the um humans have been manipulated throughout history by um extraterrestrials.
And uh what I wanted to know is if you've had any information indicating that possibly the New World Order push is being orchestrated by these beings.
First time caller line, you're on the air with John Lear.
unidentified
Hello.
Yeah, good morning.
I'm calling from the Kingdom of Valley Center, which is in Southern California at the base of Mount Palomar.
Welcome.
Famous 200-inch Hale telescope.
You know, Dr. Hale, it's interesting.
He never saw his telescope become a reality, but he was led by an invisible dwarf who apparently inspired him, told him where to build it, and that sort of thing.
I have two questions.
First of all, what does your guest think of George Adamski, who is also a local fellow here?
He was apparently the father of the UFO culture.
And also, does he have any information on a hypersonic vehicle called Aurora, which is apparently a top-secret thing coming out of a base in northern Scotland?
Alien Abduction Claims00:09:42
unidentified
We have a lot of sonic booms here on Wednesdays and Thursdays, and we've been hearing that this is coming from this Aurora vehicle, which does something strange over the San Diego area.
And just, you know, he went into the whole cover of it, but I mean, he detailed everything from, you know, different fighter pilots, their names, their vehicle identification number, everything, you know, just hundreds of documents on that.
On the wildcard line, you're on the air with John Lear.
Hi.
unidentified
Yeah, this is Lewis over in Chico.
John, about two years ago, I had an opportunity while I was back east to run into an intelligence officer.
I won't give his branch of service because I certainly don't want to get him in trouble.
But he worked out of one of our top command units back on the East Coast.
And he told me that, now this is what he said, that the aliens that supposedly that our government's dealing with are in a non-interference type of pack.
And that there were other aliens who were interfering.
And he said there was actually three levels of government in this country.
And they're all vying for positions of power.
And they're kind of all in like a standoff to each other because, you know, different groups of these supposed aliens have upped the ante.
You know, it's just kind of like here on Earth, you know, Bosnia.
You know, somebody gets an AK-47, and the next guy gets a nuclear bomb.
Yeah, I agree with that, and I think your friend was right.
unidentified
He also said, though, that the ones that, you know, were, you know, they kind of kept an overall picture of the thing.
He said that most of the abductions were not being carried out by aliens, but they were being carried out by the government, and it was for use for later, you know, they were programming people.
They would go out and find people who would be susceptible to this.
He said they had special editions of films that were very subliminal, and they would get like a control who would make friends with certain individuals, and they would go over to the guy's house, you know, and show him a special copy of E.T., except the guy's not knowing he's watching a special copy of E.T.
And they would program these people up to a point where they would either give them a hypnotic experience or they would actually, and I thought this was kind of amusing, but he said they actually hired dwarfs and would dress them up and have a whole theater set up to be like a ship and give these people a physical experience so that even if they took them out and they got out to a psychiatrist or a hypnotist who was not even believing in this,
when he would put them under, that he would get the reading back from them that they actually believed what they went under.
MJ-12 was the government, the secret review body that was put together by President Truman in 1947 to review and decide what to do about the alien threat, if any.
It was given teeth by President Eisenhower when he got in and regretted by President Eisenhower when he got out.
He said, beware of the military industrial complex, which MJ-12 essentially run.
For the people who don't believe that MJ-12 exists, my source for the existence of MJ-12 was Jimmy Doolittle.
And since he's passed away now, I don't mind saying that that was my source.