Art Bell

All Episodes

Previous Next

Jan. 6, 1998 - Art Bell

02:04:40

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Dr. Kent Hovind - Dispelling the Myth of Evolution

Participants

Main voices

01:12:57

kent hovind

42:30

Appearances

Clips

roger leir

00:12

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Show episode speakers

Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, everybody, and welcome.
		It's close to post a.m.
		If you're just joining us at this hour, boy, have I got something good in store for you?
		Let me update you a little bit from last night.
		Tomorrow night, as I promised I would do, I'm going to have Robert O'Dean here.
		And I know a lot of you have been waiting for Robert O'Dean.
		He is a UFO researcher and analyst extraordinaire.
		He is president of Stargate International, and he has quite a story to tell.
		This night, though, we're going to do something we haven't done before.
		We are going to have a creationist on the show.
		And I'm going to tell you how it came to be.
		I was sent a facts.
		A lot of the guests that I have on the show come because of all of you, and that's the case here.
		It reads, Dear Heart, I was given a tape by Dr. Kent Hovind, and that is how it is pronounced, incidentally, Hovind.
		I found it fascinating.
		Dr. Hovind travels the U.S. debating the theory of evolution, the Big Bang.
		He proves the world is not millions of years old, but rather 6,000 years old, and that dinosaurs still exist.
		He's based in Pensacola, Florida, and has been interviewed on radio before many times, actually.
		And so I followed up, and sure enough, I have for you tonight Dr. Ken Hovind, and he is going to argue exactly that.
		And with all my guests, we will listen carefully and I hope thoughtfully.
		And then when we get to call-ins, you will call and challenge him all you want, but you will be polite or I will break your little arms and legs off.
		And while we're on the subject, of course, the very sad news of Sonny Bono hitting a tree while skiing in South Lake Tahoe.
		He is being buried for that burial share.
		We'll cut short a trip to London to return to the U.S. for that.
		Very sad.
		Second skiing accident.
		Lots of people now calling for skiers to have to wear helmets.
		Helmets.
		Somebody wrote to me, Art, how about an airbag on every tree?
		I said, how about an airbag on skiers?
		I was really being facetious.
		I think the whole idea of mandating this kind of thing is crazy.
		And somebody else just faxed me and said, hey, Art, airbags for trees are called tree huggers.
		It'd be much easier to put them on skiers.
		Either that or full-body armor.
		I don't know.
		Somebody have to push you to get you started down the hill.
		And then I've got these two weird stories I'll read to you in a second.
		NASA has launched to the moon.
		It is a craft that is going to go look for water and other stuff, minerals and gases.
		It will arrive Sunday.
		It'll be a four and a half day trip.
		And isn't it interesting?
		Do you think we are about to colonize the moon?
		Is that what this is all about?
		If they find and get water, does that cinch it?
		Is that what they're going for?
		Colonization of the moon?
		A moon base?
unidentified		What?
unidentified		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, I want to read you these two stories, and I want Dr. Ken Hoven to hear them as well, because I find them so challenging.
		You're not going to believe this, but it's true.
		The following is from UPI.
		The headline is Human Clone Coming in 90 Days.
		I'm not kidding.
		Subtitle, scientist, subheadline, plans first human cloning soon.
		UPI, Chicago, a Chicago scientist says he hopes to begin the first attempt at cloning a human being within the next 90 days.
		Richard Seed, a physicist who worked in fertility research in the 1980s, told National Public Radio, NPR today, he is negotiating now with a Chicago area fertility clinic to offer, at this folks, human cloning.
		Building on the success of the Scottish scientists who cloned the adult sheep dolly last year, Seed says a doctor would remove the DNA from a woman's egg, replace it with DNA from the person to be cloned.
		Then the doctor would wait a few days to see whether the result is developing normally as an embryo.
		If so, the embryo then would be transferred to a woman's uterus, and voila, we have a clone.
		If they're able to manipulate the DNA of a clone, they claim they could raise headless human beings.
		Now, that story is bad enough or good enough, depending on how you look at things, but follow it up with this story.
		Surgeons switch heads on living monkeys.
		At least 30 monkeys were involved in a scientific experiment in which surgeons switched their heads and kept them alive for up to a week, according to Dr. Robert White, professor of neurosurgery at Case Western Reserve University in Ohio.
		The strange experiment is said to be, listen carefully, quote, heralding a new era of human transplant technology, end quote.
		Professor White reported that by keeping part of the brain that controls reflexes like breathing, heart function, and digestion, the scientists were able to keep the new heads and brains supplied with oxygenated blood.
		They think that there was little brain disturbance to the, in quotes, higher functions as a result of the operations.
		The monkeys were said to be able to maintain regular states of sleeping and waking, and were also able to keep track of the laboratory staff visually and reacted as they normally would to noises in the room.
		Now, if you take story A about human cloning in 90 days, man, remember I was telling the audience earlier, remember after Dolly, they said, oh, no, don't worry about human cloning.
		It's way off into the distant future.
		The distant future is now 90 days.
		Anyway, if you take that story and combine it with the one that, I mean, if you can chop off a monkey's head and put it on another monkey, then as you well know, monkeys genetically are close enough to human beings that you could do the same thing with a human being.
		So when you put these two together, you have the prospect of a 60-year-old with a dying body having his head put on the body of a 20-year-old clone who otherwise has been headless.
		And I asked a lady last hour who called, ma'am, if you had liver cancer, I just picked that out of my hat and you were dying.
		And they offered you a chance to have a new body.
		Would you go for it?
		She said, no, I'd rather die.
		God didn't mean for us to do that.
		And I said, but God is the one allowing us to discover the technology to do this.
		And she said, well, you know, that's right.
		So, I don't know.
		Interesting stuff, to say the least, a little frightening.
		And Dr. Hovind, who is a creation scientist, a creationist, I guess I ought to say, I'd kind of like to get his reaction to all of this stuff that's happening.
		And then we will launch into dinosaurs still alive today.
		We will launch into how we got here, whether Earth has been here for billions of years, as is traditionally thought, or 6,000 years, as Dr. Hoven maintains.
		It's going to be a very, very interesting program.
		But I wanted to get all of that stuff in as a precursor.
		Good word lately, precursor.
		Oh, and by the way, I've got somebody to thank.
		I want to thank Rita out there for sending me the talking feather.
		Rita sent me a talking feather.
		Very, must have been an awful lot of work for her to do.
		And I won't go into it, but supposedly you can hold the feather up outside and receive communication.
		It's a beautiful item, Rita.
		Thank you.
		Now, in a moment, Dr. Kent Hovind.
		And he will be here for as long as it is interesting.
		And very interesting is what I expected to be.
		Absolutely the pain.
		All right, after last night's program, this one will give you a little whiplash, but I like doing that to my audience.
		As you know, this program doesn't get tied down to any topic.
		We go all over the place.
		There are new rules.
		Color of the rainbow smell great, last a long time.
		Really, they beat the fire out of a rose any day.
		Of creation, his fact-filled, informative seminars cause even the most devout evolutionists to sit up and take notice.
		As a 15-year veteran high school science teacher, oh, what a background.
		His love for science sparked his interest in creation versus evolution.
		He saw the tremendous need for exposing evolution as a dangerous religious worldview and for arming Christians with scientific evidence that there are no contradictions between true science and the Bible.
		In response to these needs, shortly after finishing his Ph.D. in education, he began the full-time ministry of creation science evangelism.
		Creation science evangelism.
		For the past eight years, he has offered $10,000 to anybody with real scientific evidence of evolution.
		So here's a quick $10,000 for somebody out there.
	Since its beginning in 1989, his ministry continues to grow, as Dr. Hovind speaks, over 700 times.
	700 times every year in public and private schools, churches, universities, debates on radio and TV and so forth.
	So he lives in Pensacola, Florida with his first and only wife and their three children, ages 18, 19, and 20.
	Oh, those were a busy three years of creation for Dr. Hovind.
	Doctor, welcome to the program.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you, sir.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		It's good to be here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand you are having storms in Pensacola, Florida right now.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, we do get a lot of rain, but we don't have to shovel it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We do like that.
		Yeah, that's true.
		I've had a lot of bad luck with that lately.
		I had a guest last night, Mr. Mars, who I'm going to have on the program again soon, because he was having storms down in Texas.
		And just as we were putting them on the air, his phone line blew up, and we never did get him on the air.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you'll enjoy him.
		Text Mars.
		I've been on his program.
		He's really good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, this is a different program.
		It's not Tex Mars.
		No, it's not Tex Mars.
		Listen, what do you think?
		What is your take, first of all?
		You heard me read these two stories.
		You understand the implication of these two stories together with regard to cloning and the switching of heads?
		Yes, sir.
		So before we dig into what we're really here for, what do you think about that?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, the cloning, I think, has probably been going on much longer than most people realize.
		Whether we can do it is a different question than whether we should do it.
		You know, we can make an atomic bomb and blow everybody up.
		Now, should we do it is another question.
		I think that the cloning has really little or nothing to do with the creation-evolution topic because the people are taking an incredibly complex DNA code that already exists and manipulating it.
		I guess a very rough analogy would be if you could figure out a way to extract information from your hard drive other than the normal ways of doing it, you know, that would be interesting and it'd be neat, but the information was already there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what is the practical application?
		The practical application would be as I described.
		Oh, right.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Somebody, you know, creating their own second body to keep on living forever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		And simply taking the head, if that's possible, and apparently it is, and moving it over to a cloned body, which was cloned and without a head.
		All this sounds like Frankenstein, Bill, but it's real, and it's now, and it's happening.
		And I was wondering how somebody with your background would react to it.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've been asked it many times.
		I've thought about it a lot.
		I haven't come to a solid conclusion on that yet.
		You know what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, a lady called.
		You didn't hear her because you didn't hear the first hour.
		But a lady called and said, There's no way I would say, No, let me die.
		If I had liver cancer, I'd rather die.
		God did not intend for this sort of thing.
		And I said, But God is allowing us to develop this technology.
		And that made her thoughtful.
		And she said, yeah, that's true.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, he also allowed people to develop the technology to blow up Hiroshima.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		True.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		So I don't know that there's always a good argument.
		I'm reserving my judgment to see where it goes.
		A lot of times with scientific discoveries like this, there's a lot more smoke than fire.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		They claim they can do all sorts of things like ice on the moon.
		So what if there is ice on the moon?
		It doesn't prove a thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess that then they think they could.
		That's one of the basics of life.
		Ice means water, which means life.
		And so they would then, I guess, proceed to consider colonizing the moon in some way.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, I suspect they're a little desperate for funding for NASA, and they're looking for an excuse to justify their existence and their budget.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I suspect that, too.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		That was definitely the purpose of the Mars Rock thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You don't believe the Mars rock stuff, I take it.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, it was proven shortly after it happened.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		See, that rock had been found seven years earlier.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Sat in the laboratory for a long time.
		Congress had stalled on granting the money for NASA.
		And the money was stuck in Congress, and so they needed to find something.
		There was never any doubt that it was just an ordinary rock.
		There's not even any proof it came from Mars.
		If you do the mathematics on it, you'll find that the distance between Earth and Mars is incredibly great, of course, but the closest they ever get would be the same as having, if you shrank the Earth and Mars down to the size of tomatoes, and Earth would be a four-inch tomato, and Mars would be a two-inch tomato, and you put them about a half a mile away from each other.
		That's the closest they ever get.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		What's the probability of something hitting Mars hard enough to knock a piece over to Earth and not leave a dent on Mars?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are astronomers who claim that they see impact points on Mars that would have been big enough to eject material from the surface of Mars out.
		And I don't, you know, I'm not a scientist, so I can't really substantiate that right now, but they claim that, that they see craters there that are big enough that would have ejected stuff out from the planet.
		So, you know, I suppose it's possible.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Really, NASA seems to have a vendetta like it is one of its major purposes for existence is to try to prove or find evidence for the evolution theory.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		They're looking for life everywhere else.
		And here they've got radar or satellites, telescopes set up to listen for extraterrestrial life.
		And we've got intelligent, obvious signs of intelligent design right here on Earth, and they can't see that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Even the Vatican forced their way onto Mount Graham through a lot of political and environmental obstacles to get a big observatory up on Mount Graham to be looking for life.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		You see, if they found, if they heard an intelligent signal from outer space, they would right away say, wow, look, proof of intelligence out there.
		And yet we see overwhelming evidence of design right here on this planet, and they don't see, hey, there's a designer.
		There's a God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right, if there came a signal, like in the movie Contact, for example, there came a signal from elsewhere, how would somebody like yourself handle that information?
		You have a background as a...
		I mean, here you were a science teacher for years and years and years, but here you are preaching creation, not evolution, arguing against it.
		That's a pretty strange background to be coming from to be preaching about creation.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, in one of the surveys done here in the last few years, it was found that 36% of the U.S. high school biology teachers believe the Earth is less than 10,000 years old and God made it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		So basically, they believe the creation story as given in the Bible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		36%.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		36% of the just average Joblo-American citizens, the Mobile Press Register did quite a poll in 1995, and they found that 61% of the population believes that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old and God made it.
		So they believe the creation account.
		Only 4% of the people were atheistic.
		30% tried to blend the two together.
		You know, maybe God used evolution.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's me, by the way.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		We'll fix that by the end of the program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I've always felt that the two were not necessarily mutually exclusive, that the process of evolution could have been by the hand of God.
		But you say you can fix that, huh?
unidentified		Oh, yeah, not a problem.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		I've heard a couple of your programs, and you seem like an honest, intelligent fella, and so if that is true, then yes, we'll be able to fix it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, then, this is going to be an extremely, extremely interesting program.
		Mull over the, during the break here, mull over that question about if we suddenly got a signal and realized there were others, how you would react to that?
		And we'll tackle that one when we come back, and then we will launch into the full question of how old the earth is, whether we were created or whether we came from some sort of sludge that was struck by lightning and crawled out of the ocean, and you know the rest of the story.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		To talk with Art Bell from west of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico, dial 1-800-618-8255.
		That's 1-800-618-8255.
		Now again, here's Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am.
		Actually, do not call yet.
		I repeat, do not call yet.
		We are doing an interview.
		We will fairly early on get the phone lines open, and I will allow you to have a direct dialogue with Dr. Holman.
		Of course.
		So, look forward to that.
		It's coming up.
		Someone just sent me a fax.
		Rick in Redmond, Washington says, Art, if we could make clones.
		Now, check this out for the human spirit.
		Art, if we could make clones, could we then clone horrible criminals, killers, rapists, that sort of thing, then sentence them to many deaths.
		In other words, three deaths for murder, two deaths for rape.
		I think Rick doesn't quite understand the nature of what a clone would be.
		It would be like a twin.
		And that would be like sentencing somebody else, albeit with the same DNA, to pay for the karma, in fact, of somebody.
		It would be horrible.
		You don't understand, Rick, or I don't, one way or the other.
		All right.
		Back now to Dr. Hovind in Pensacola, Florida.
		Doctor, welcome back.
		All right.
		Suppose we did get that signal.
		Suppose that beyond any question we found there are others out there.
		My program deals in this kind of material all the time.
		How would somebody like yourself react to that news?
		Would it be disturbing to you?
		Would you take it in stride?
		What?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, are you familiar with the book called The Cosmic Conspiracy by Stan Dale?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Stan is a very good friend.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		My understanding of that, and it's been quite a while since I read it, but my understanding was that basically there are two kinds of UFOs.
		There are top-secret government craft, and there are satanically owned and operated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Satanically, in other words, there are no UFOs from elsewhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They are either from our government or some government on Earth, or they are satanic.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's been my understanding, that those seem to be the two reasonable options.
		But nobody's ever seen another planet around any other stars, let alone prove that there's any life on it.
		So if someone wants to argue that there's life on other planets, they're arguing from the negative.
		They're arguing from the lack of evidence.
		That's a poor position to be in, of course, in a court of law.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you see the movie Contact?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		Oh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Too bad.
		I think it was Jodie Foster, who was an astronomer in the movie.
		And one of the classic lines in the movie was, as you look up at the night sky, and I have a beautiful one here in the desert where it's very dry, and you see all those stars, millions and billions of stars, the line was, if there's not somebody else out there, it sure is a waste of space.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, it might be like putting chrome on your car.
		You know, it doesn't do much.
		It just dresses it up.
		And God may have done all of that just to dress it up for us to look out and say, oh, wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For us to see a pretty sky.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, the Bible says, you know, Eve is the mother of all living.
		So I guess scripturally, I would have a hard time getting around that verse.
		All of us came from Adam and Eve.
		And after the flood, the Bible says the whole earth was overspread from the descendants of Noah.
		So I guess I'm not locked into a position 100% in concrete or anything, but I would have to say, so far, there is no proof that there's any other planets, let alone any other life on it.
		So as I said, it's arguing from the negative.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, but still, my question stands.
		If there was concrete evidence of contact, how would you react?
		Would you react negatively?
		Would that shake your faith?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, I would have to see some pretty good documentation.
		I would be in the skeptic category until there's some pretty good proof that it isn't indeed from here, i.e.
		demonic, satanic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, but again, I come back to the question, and I hope I can get an answer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would it shake your faith if it were absolutely proven to be so, or would you be able to accommodate that with your belief system?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, I would have one or two other options to consider before I would have to do anything drastic as far as my faith goes.
		The people, the Bible says the people before the flood were living over 900 years.
		Adam presumably came from the hand of God, fully programmed, able to speak, you know, with a.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All set to go.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Set to go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No caveman stage, none of that point.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Which means if he was programmed to use 100% of his brain, which would seem to be reasonable since we have this incredible brain and people today use less than 10% of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		I had students when I taught that used much less than that.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		If Adam used 100% of his brain and came fully programmed from the hand of God and lived 900 years, how much did they know back then?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But if he used 100% of his brain and he was so smart, what did he take the big bite of the apple for?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, he knew full well that Eve had been tricked and he did that voluntarily to save Eve his love for her.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Just like Christ voluntarily became sin on the cross to pay us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Chivalry.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		I mean, he knew full well what he was doing.
		According to 1 Timothy, Eve was deceived.
		Adam was not.
		He deliberately took of the fruit to save his wife.
		So if they lived 900 years and came pre-programmed and were incredibly intelligent, I mean, hundreds and hundreds of times more intelligent than the smartest man alive today.
unidentified		Yes.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Plus, they lived so long, they could pass on this information to their great, great, great, great, great, great grandchildren.
		They were still alive.
		If you graph out the dates given in Scripture, you know, Adam knew Noah's daddy for 56 years.
unidentified		All right.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		A long time later.
		So I have often wondered how far they got as far as technology.
		They wouldn't need to waste a lot of time like we do today just making a living because they had a perfect environment.
		You know, you don't have to spend so many hours a day working to make money to pay the rent or pay the utilities.
		They didn't need any utilities.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, a lot of things.
		If we lived to be 900, a lot of things would be very different.
		I think we would treat our environment very differently.
		You know, a lot of things.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		So I guess my Other response to your question is: I don't know how far they got or how much they were able to pass on to Noah and his three sons who lived through the flood.
		And is it possible that after the flood, these people who still lived to be 400 years, according to the dates given in Scripture, were capable of some incredible feats: the building of the pyramids, the huge things you can only see from space in South America and Mexico.
		I just in Mexico yesterday, the sketches of people that are three miles long, the Easter Island statues.
		Instead of looking for intelligent life on other planets as the source for these strange phenomena that we do definitely see, these giant stones that are moved into position, could it be that it was super intelligent life right here, the descendants of Noah?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure could be.
		Sure could be.
		I was privileged.
		I was in Egypt here recently, and I got to lay in the sarcophagus in the Great Pyramid, and there is no question about it.
		There is no way they could have moved those stones.
		No way.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Either they knew something that we don't know, or they were able to harness some kind of power we know nothing about.
		See, today we don't use the magnetic field of the Earth for anything except tell our compass which way is north.
		Is it possible the magnetic field can be harnessed?
		I mean, 200 years ago, if you just said you can produce electricity by spinning a magnet inside of a copper wire, people would say you're nuts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		You know, here we have this incredible power, electricity, which is very recently discovered and now governs just about everything we do.
		So is it possible there are other powers we still have not discovered?
		I think part of the problem is we go on the assumption that modern man is smart and ancient man is dumb, which goes back to the evolution argument.
		I think if we could abandon that and say, wow, these folks were made in the image of God.
		They were incredibly smart.
		They probably knew all sorts of things we don't know.
		And modern man today is the one that's slowly climbing up from the plunge that he took when he abandoned God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you were teaching science in high school, what did you teach?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		I taught biology, earth science, and physical science.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And within the context of that, what did you teach with regard to evolution and creation?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		I teach that evolution is one of the theories of how we got here, and it is impossible for the following reasons.
		You know, you teach what the textbook says, and say, here's what this says, and here's why this cannot be true.
		See, the textbook is not infallible.
		There's much good science in the textbooks, and I love science.
		I've got a giant collection of public school science textbooks right in front of me here, hundreds of them.
		And I do enormous amounts of research on this topic, you know, things in the textbooks that should not be there.
		There is definitely a, I don't know how to phrase it, maybe a political agenda behind some of these folks who want to push the evolution theory.
		And they're using all sorts of things to promote their theory as evidence for evolution.
		Things that have been proven wrong many, many years ago.
		Every biology textbook in my collection, and let me take a quick look here, I have probably four feet of shelf space of just biology high school textbooks.
		Everyone that I'm aware of mentions that the human embryo, as it develops inside the mother, has gill pouches representing the fish stage of evolution.
		That whole idea was made up by a guy named Ernst Haeckel in 1869.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He hated God.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		He wanted everybody in Germany to believe the evolution theory.
		And Darwin had predicted they would find lots of evidence for his theory when his book came out in 1859.
		So 10 years later, no evidence had been found.
		So Ernst Haeckel made some.
		He took the drawings of a human and the drawings of a dog, an embryo, at four weeks' development and altered them to make them look alike, made huge charts, traveled all over Germany, preaching the embryology idea, which came to be known by the fancy phrase ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny.
		In other words, as the baby develops in the mother, it goes through the stages of evolution, where it has gill slits and a tail and slowly comes from a fish to an amphibian.
		Well, Haeckel was taken before a tribunal sort of thing at the University of Jena and admitted to fraud.
		It was proven that he lied in 1874.
		And yet his drawings are still in textbooks today.
		The whole concept of what Ernst Haeckel made up is a lie.
		But every biology textbook in America today that I'm aware of still teaches that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You contend our Earth is only, what, 6,000 years old?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's examine how that can scientifically stand up.
		Carbon dating.
		Okay.
		Lots of people, lots of scientists, lots of archaeologists to prove what they have found, resort to carbon dating.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is wrong with carbon dating?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It must be inaccurate or wrong if the Earth is only 6,000 years old because they keep dating this stuff at hundreds of thousands of years.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Carbon dating would only get you back about 30,000 years.
		The limitations are pretty great.
		There's about seven different radioactive elements, potassium-argon, or potassium decays to argon, rubidium, to strontium, lead-208, lead-206.
		We talked about any of them, uranium-235.
		All of them, any decay method of dating, is based on some very fundamental assumptions.
		A simple analogy that helps folks understand, if you had walked into a room and found a candle burning on the table, and I said, hey Art, how long has the candle been burning?
		And you said, well, okay, I don't know, Kent.
		It's burning when I walked in.
		Okay, let's measure the candle.
		Suppose the candle is seven inches high.
		We measure it extremely precisely.
		I mean, we get out the micrometers and we get it.
		All the scientists agree this candle's seven inches high.
		There's no argument on the height of the candle.
		That's called empirical, testable, demonstrable science.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		How long has it been burning?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, science could, I suppose, prove that by the repetitive burning of a seven-inch candle.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, that would tell you how long that candle will burn down.
		You know, when it'll burn out.
		But I want to know when it was lit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you could determine that almost forensically once you had determined the burn time for a seven-inch candle.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Okay, but look at the burn time.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Suppose we watch it and find out it burns an inch an hour.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, there you go.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		When we walked in, we determined two scientific Things.
		It is seven inches tall.
		It is burning one inch every hour.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		How long ago was it lit?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if it was five inches, two hours ago.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		See, we don't know.
		See, that's where you have to leave empirical science and go to assumptions.
		We would have to assume an initial height for the candle, which we could not prove.
		We'd just have to assume that.
		We'd say, well, it's okay.
		Maybe it was 12 inches tall.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'm sorry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I thought that was a starting assumption.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		We don't know what the starting height was.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		It was burning when we walked in the room.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		It is now 7 inches tall.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about the amount of melted wax?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		That may be a possibility.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm reaching out here.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, they're dripless candles.
unidentified		You know, they don't produce any wax.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		The point is, with carbon dating, you're measuring the decay of an element.
		Carbon-14 slowly decays.
		Nobody questions that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		The half-life is a little less than 6,000 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		But you're able to accurately measure how much carbon-14 is in the object today, and we can measure the decay rate today.
		And after that, we're basing this on assumptions.
		The real problem with carbon dating, or with any dating method actually, is all of them are calibrated against the geologic column, where if you find a dinosaur bone, it is automatically assumed to be 70 million years old, roughly, or 100 million years old.
		And therefore, if they uranium date it or potassium argon date it or whatever, if they don't get the answer that matches the geologic date, it becomes what's called an extraneous date, one that, well, they say, well, we know this isn't true.
		Let's try it again.
		Out of 21,000 dates obtained by carbon dating, 19,000 were rejected as extraneous.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, if it doesn't fit their paradigm, they, in effect, simply reject it by putting it up on the shelf.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Oh, correct.
		Several years ago, penguins from Antarctica were carbon dated.
		They took bone samples out of living penguins.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		And they were 8,000 years old by carbon dating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No kidding.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's not useless.
		Willard Libby invented it in the early 50s, 1947 to 1953.
		I think in 53 he got a Nobel Prize for it.
		He knew some of the shortcomings of it, and people today certainly ought to know.
		The magnetic field of the Earth is getting weaker and weaker.
		We're slowly losing our magnetic strength.
		As the field gets weaker, more radiation from the sun gets in.
		And it's that same radiation that causes the formation of carbon-14.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what makes it.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		So if you're going to assume that the amount of carbon-14 in the atmosphere today, which goes into the plants and ultimately into the animals, is the same as it was in the past, you've got a faulty assumption.
		Because carbon-14 in the atmosphere is still increasing, largely due to the decline of the magnetic field.
		Willard Libby totally ignored that and said, well, we know that the Earth's carbon-14 in the atmosphere would reach equilibrium in less than 30,000 years, and it's still not in equilibrium.
		And he said, and we know the Earth's more than 30,000 years old, therefore, this can be ignored.
		Well, now, hold on.
		I think he's wrong that the Earth is not more than 30,000 years old.
		Carbon dating actually proves the Earth is less than 30,000 years old.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does it prove the range of about 6,000 years?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		The only way you're going to get 6,000 is by adding up the dates given in Scripture and by looking at reliable historic human records.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So there's no scientific method of proving what you believe, that the Earth is 6,000 years old.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		There are indicators.
		If I told you that the radio station that you work from is 4,000 years old, it would be fairly easy for you to prove I'm wrong.
		You could look and say, hey, there's wiring built into the walls.
		Electric wiring wasn't made until 100 years ago.
		So you have effectively limited it down to the last 100 years.
		Now, I probably couldn't tell you exactly when it was built, but I could walk around most any building and give you a ballpark figure that would be fairly close based upon limiting factors, we call them.
		I could say, oh, this building has a certain synthetic fiber, which wasn't invented until World War II, and therefore it was built after World War II, etc.
		By looking at various scientific things, we can limit the age of the earth down to certainly less than the billions that they claim.
		You're not going to get 6,000 unless you just simply take the Bible at face value.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you do?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, sir.
		There's no reason not to.
		Nobody's ever proven anything wrong about the Bible.
		Someone said the Bible is the anvil that has worn out many hammers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		A lot of people have found it on that thing, and nobody's proven anything wrong yet.
		I see no reason to reject it and lots of reasons to accept it.
		But ultimately, it does come back to my faith.
		As a scientist, I look at this and say, wow, you know, let's examine the evidence.
		When you don't see anything wrong, you say, this must be the reasonable theory.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So there is nothing in science right now that shakes your faith?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, and I'd love science.
		I read science books all the time.
		I'd love it.
		But it's absolutely nothing.
		See, science is unrelated to evolution.
		That's where the problem comes in.
		Evolution is mixed in with science.
		That's no question.
		I point out that beer is often sold at football games, and beer has nothing to do with football.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure that the beer bone is not connected to the football bone.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
		It may be.
		But see, beer does not become athletic by association.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Evolution does not become scientific by association.
		It's true, it's thoroughly mixed in our curriculum, and that's the fault of the educators in the last hundred years who have allowed this to happen.
		But that still doesn't make it science.
		They might want it to be, and they might loudly proclaim that it is, but all they're, you know, telling the lie long enough and loud enough and often enough, like Hitler said, you know, might make the people believe it, but it doesn't make it true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What should be presented to our high school students?
		Creation as a theory, evolution as a theory, creation as the way it really happened, evolution, I mean, how should it be presented?
		What sort of, if you were in a position to lay down the curriculum yourself, how would it be laid out?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess I would examine a much bigger question first.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		You know, should we even have public schools?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		If you start there, the problem is solved.
		According to the 10th Amendment to our Constitution, they shouldn't even exist.
		Every state should run their own schools.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Having said that, though, they are there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		They are there.
		So I think students should be taught the truth.
		And probably the issue of creation evolution is so emotionally charged from both sides that it is impossible to address the subject without offending somebody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you would then not teach it at all?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		I would say, hey, let's present the facts.
		We're going to learn biology.
		Here's the muscles.
		Here's the bones.
		Here's the blood vessels.
		Learn these names.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So when young Johnny said, Dr. Holman, please, I want to know where did I come from, you would have to say we can't talk about that here in the school.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ask your mom.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, which schools do on all sorts of other topics.
		And they should with this one, really.
		If we're going to have public schools, which I think is a very big if, and I would strongly recommend we not have them at all, then, but if we're going to have them, then certainly there are certain topics that they simply should not be allowed to be.
		If they promote evolution, they are promoting a religion.
		If they promote creation, they're promoting a religion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So evolution, in your view, then, is a religion itself.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		No question.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		There's no scientific evidence for it whatsoever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Stay right where you are.
		We'll do a bit more when we come back, and then we will open the lines.
		I'm sure there are many who would like to speak to you.
		Dr. Ken Hovind is my guest.
		He is a creationist.
		And this is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		Coast to Coast AM.
		Code 702-727-1222.
		That's area code 702-727-1222.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
		Now again, here's Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here again, I seem to be.
		Dr. Kent Hovind is my guest, and this is going to be a very, very interesting program.
		If you're just joining us, I'll try and catch you up if I can.
		Dr. Kent Hovind is considered by many to be one of the leading authorities on science in the Bible, dedicated to the proclamation of factual scientific evidence supporting the biblical theory of record, excuse me, of creation.
		His fact-filled, informative seminars cause even the most devout evolutionists to sit up and take notice.
		Here we have a 15-year high school teacher, science teacher, as a matter of fact.
		His love for science sparked his interest in creation and evolution.
		He saw the tremendous needs for exposing evolution as a dangerous religious worldview and for arming Christians with scientific evidence that there are no contradictions between true science and the Bible.
		In response to these needs, shortly after finishing his PhD in education, he began the full-time ministry of creation science evangelism.
		For the past eight years, he's offered $10,000 to anyone out there with real scientific evidence for evolution.
		So, this will be your night to pick up an easy 10 grand.
		The good doctor suggests our world is about 6,000 years old, or at least, if not, certainly not hundreds of thousands or millions or billions of years old, but very new.
		And we will get into phone calls shortly.
		I've got a few more questions, and then I'm going to allow you to ask him questions, and I know you have many.
		Referring to UFOs and the craft that flit about our planet, the good doctor believes they are either government UFOs, government secret black project airplanes or craft, or things of the devil.
		So then, what is Area 51, the alien interview?
		Well, it's a 65-minute documentary that appears to show a government agent interviewing a space alien, or you may read devil, if you will, inside the infamous secret base at Area 51.
		It was taken out of Area 51, spirited out by a man known as Victor, who is now in deep hiding and apparently is going to remain there.
		I'm trying to get another interview with him in that place where he hides.
		A Strange Universe and Extra showed a little few seconds of it.
		Here we've got the full 65-minute documentary.
		It's $19.95 plus shipping and handling.
		And to get it, it'll take two weeks after you order it.
		Therefore, you should be on the phone now calling 1-800-510-3420.
		That's 1-800-510-3420.
		In today's world of shaky currencies, massive borrowing, and higher interest rates, it might be time to get a little old-fashioned with your money.
		Time to buy gold.
		Most investors know that gold is a good investment during times of inflation.
		Actually, gold is a hedge against all forms of economic uncertainty.
		Gold's value went up 800% during the inflationary 70s, 15% during the market crash of 1987, and 70% during the Great Depression.
		The Swiss refer to gold as the ultimate currency since it retains its purchasing power when all else fails.
		Eventually, all paper currencies inflate and fail.
		Even the celebrated Swiss franc has lost over 50% of its buying power since 1945.
		No paper currency is immune.
		Gold, on the other hand, will buy everything today that it bought 20, 50, even 100 years ago.
		So, if you're uncomfortable about the ever-growing government debt, perpetual deficits, rising taxes, and their effect on your personal net worth, it's time to face facts.
		Call North American Trading at 1-800-359-4255 and ask for their free information on buying gold safely and privately.
		Remember, 1-800-359-4255, North American Trading, America's trusted name and private hard assets.
		You don't have to be rich to own gold.
		Just smart again, quickly reviewing for those of you who just joined the show.
		The major news, Of course, is of the death of Sonny Bono, tragic death, hitting a tree while skiing, like Kennedy, two skiing accidents within a week.
		Seems very unlikely, doesn't it?
		Somebody early on in the show faxed that we should be putting helmets.
		Actually, no, the news, the national news is talking about helmets being required for skiers.
		And then I thought, well, why not airbags on a skier?
		And then somebody else said, no, why don't you put airbags on trees?
		Somebody else said, no, this is the latest.
		If the environmentalists simply allowed the loggers to do their jobs, Kennedy and Bono would be alive today because the trees they hit would have been logged.
		Also, it would have made skiing through the trees easier, less trees to hit.
		I never quite thought of it that way.
		I have a story here from UPI indicating human cloning will be accomplished within 90 days in the Chicago area.
		I have a second story indicating scientists.
		Specifically, Professor Robert White, a neurosurgeon at Case Western Reserve University in Ohio, has actually moved one monkey head to another monkey, and the monkeys lived and demonstrated that they were alert and watching the staff and all the rest of that.
		Pretty chilly stuff, huh?
		So if you combine the cloning of a human being with the ability to move a head from one body to another, you've got a pretty ominous, possible near-term future, I would say.
		We talked a little bit about that.
		But Dr. Hovind is here, and he is here to talk about creation versus evolution.
		And he makes very strong arguments, and we're going to explore some more of those.
		I just got a facts here.
		Dr. Hovind says, Dear Art, I think Dr. Hovind has a very daunting task ahead of him.
		For what creationists say to be true, one would have to discard all geology, astronomy, physics, and biology.
		If all fossil layers were deposited during the flood, why then don't we dig up more familiar animals, goats, cats, horses, alongside the dinosaurs?
		Even if one were to accept a premise that dinosaurs were heavier and sank, the fact is that most dinosaurs were smaller than the average large dog.
		How did the animal survive on the ark?
	That is accepting the premise that Noah could have loaded 460 or so organisms per second onto the ark to meet the 24-hour deadline described in the Bible.
	The question from a creationist that must be the most challenging is the speed of light, which physics indicates stars and the universe are billions of years old.
	Now, that does lead us to a rather intriguing question, and that is, we are receiving light, Doctor, from stars that are as many as 15 or more billion years out in light years.
	How could that be if Earth is 6,000 or even 100,000 years old?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, which of those do you want to tackle first?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't care.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You pick it.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		This is a typical ploy of an evolutionist who's getting desperate.
		They will say something like, you have to discard all of biology, you know, physics, et cetera, as if all of those, just by calling those names of those sciences, that that somehow is evidence for evolution, which it certainly is not.
		I like all of those sciences.
		I collect information on all of that and taught it and loved it and still study on it.
		And there's definitely nothing in any of those sciences to go against the creation philosophy.
		There's no hard science in those branches of events.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let us pick astronomy since we gave you a trend.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Okay, if somebody tells you a star is 15 billion light years away, I would like to know how they figured that number.
		Who held the other end of that ruler?
		How did you measure that?
		I taught trigonometry.
		From trigonometry, you can only measure, you can measure a triangle if you know two sides and one angle, or two angles and one side.
		You can get a little further by using what's called a parallax method, where once you know one point, you compare it to another point as we move around the sun.
		But Earth's orbit around the sun is 16 light minutes across.
		If we convert this all to inches, to make it easier, let's say Earth's orbit is 16 inches across.
		And we can look at a star in January.
		We can look at the star in June.
		We have two observation points.
		We can now make a triangle.
		Talk to the star.
		The problem is there's over half a million, 526,000 minutes in one year.
		If I told you to draw a triangle that is point A and B are 16 inches apart, point C is 526,000 inches away, you now have a very skinny triangle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You sure do.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		That would be like having points A and B one foot apart and point C 6.2 miles away.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		You get two surveyors to set up their transits one foot apart, focus in on a dot six miles away, and tell me the angle or the distance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So what you're saying is it is impossible for them to measure.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		That's absolutely correct.
		Nearly all astronomy books will say using parallax trigonometry, the only real hard science to measure these distances, will give you a maximum of 100 light years.
		I think even 100 light years is stretching it as far as being able to prove anything accurately because you're dealing with such minute measurements.
		You're dealing this out, you don't know, 15 decimal places as far as measuring your angle.
		That just can't be done.
		I'm not saying the stars aren't that far away.
		They might be.
		But I think modern scientists have this tendency to want to make everybody think, hey, we're smart, we know everything.
		And that's simply not true.
		This is an awfully big universe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're not completely discounting.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, no.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		They could be that far away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But if they are, God put them that far away so we could look up into the night sky and observe all this endless depth of beauty.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Sure, and oh, wow, with the effect.
		There's three things I would point out as far as the question on starlight.
		Number one, we simply cannot measure those distances, no matter what anybody says.
		So they're making up those numbers.
		They're making up the numbers based on the luminosity.
		You know, well, it looks pretty bright, therefore it must be pretty close.
		Or it doesn't look too bright, it must be pretty far away.
		Pretty shaky ground.
		You know, take that to any court of law and see how far you get.
		So they could be that far away.
		My point is, we can't measure it.
		Secondly, there's absolutely no way to prove that the speed of light has always been consistent all through space or all through time.
		The whole idea behind a black hole is that light can be affected by gravity and therefore cannot escape because the escape velocity of this dense material is beyond 186,000 miles a second.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right you are.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		So if light's affected by gravity, then is the speed of light a constant?
		Could light be accelerated toward galaxies and decelerated away from galaxies?
		There's no way to prove the speed of light has been the same all through history.
		All we've ever measured it is here on Earth in our atmosphere.
		So we don't know that the speed of light is a constant necessarily.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I believe science does try and determine the distance by the amount of redshift.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Nobody knows for sure what's causing the redshift.
		They think it might be the Doppler effect.
		But if the planet or the star is moving away, you would get the same effect as if you're sitting at a train track and you hear a train coming in.
		The pitch in the train whistle changes as it passes you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's for sure.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		That's called the Doppler effect of sound.
		The theory is that maybe the same thing affects light, that light is affected by a Doppler effect.
		And it could be.
		Okay, I'm not arguing.
		But if the star is moving toward us, we would get a blue shift.
		And certainly, some of the stars do exhibit a blue shift.
		Scientists look out there, astronomers look out there and see some of the stars are giving a blue shift in the spectrum.
		And some of the stars give a red shift some of the time and a blue shift some of the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you believe in the Big Bang?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You don't?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, the Big Bang is coming.
		It's going to end that way.
		It didn't start that way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
		Well, the theory, of course, is that there was a Big Bang from some central point.
		Nobody knows what happened one second before the Big Bang theory.
		But then everything exploded outward.
		So therefore, if that was true, and if we were the center of that, everything should have a shift of red to it, shouldn't it?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, if we're the center of it, correct.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		I mean, what's the probability of that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		And why should we be the center of it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would say if creation is, as you suggest so, and there is no other life out there, and stars are just pretty things for us to see without planets and life, then we would be the center of it, wouldn't we?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, it could be.
		And the Bible says in several references that God stretched out the heavens like a curtain.
		It could be that God created it from one point and flung them out into space, and they are indeed traveling, and we are experiencing a redshift.
		I'm just saying, you know, there's certainly options.
		The third point I would make is if you ask somebody, you know, how old was Adam when God made him?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		When he was zero.
		But how old did he look?
		Well, he looked full grown.
		The trees had fruit on them when he walked into the garden.
		Well, it takes five years for trees to produce fruit, normally.
		So here you have the appearance of age.
		And God is not limited by things like the speed of light.
		So he could create the stars and the light, just like he could make Adam full grown.
		Ready to speak.
		I mean, it takes a while to learn to speak.
		I mean, Adam talked the first day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		And then, I suppose, created the animals and so forth and so on.
		Remember the facts are here who asked about why then don't we find goats, cats, horses, that sort of thing, right alongside the dinosaurs?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, I would argue that his premise is that we don't.
		Who gets to decide how old this fossil is if it's found?
		Dinosaur bones have been found all over, but I often ask people, we find limestone containing many zillions of fossils.
		I have a huge fossil collection here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		How do you tell the difference between 100-year-old Jurassic limestone and 600-year-old Cambrian limestone?
unidentified		Don't know.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		See, limestone is found in each of the so-called geologic eras, be it Cenozoic, Mesozoic, etc.
		The real problem is the whole geologic column, made up primarily by Charles Lyell, building on the work of Steno and Stratos Smith and some other guys, Cuvier.
		But Lyell's the culprit, really, in Scotland, a lawyer there.
		In 1830, he published his books, Principles of Geology, Volume 1, 2, and 3.
		I've got them, let's see, yeah, right here in my hand.
		Those are the books that destroyed Darwin's faith in the Bible.
		Darwin read those as he sailed around on the Beagle, and those are the books that ruined him.
		He invented this geologic column, and he said each of these layers of earth that we see are different age.
		And you've got them all over out there in Nevada.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		That's the premise, and that's the false premise.
		Those layers are not different ages.
		Maybe by a few weeks different.
		But the Bible teaches that there was a worldwide flood, of course, which would have made thousands and thousands of feet of sedimentary rock layered.
		So they said, well, the Thames River and some other rivers in England produce a certain amount of sediment per year.
		Let's say you get two inches per year of sediment.
		Therefore, let's measure this canyon, and it is, you know, 5,000 feet deep.
		Oh, this must have taken, you know, so many years to make.
		All based on some pretty faulty assumptions.
		The fact is, the geologic column, and I taught her science 15 years, the geologic column does not exist any place in the world except in the textbook.
		You cannot find this column in its entirety anyplace.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know that there has been recent science supposedly that has done core sampling off the Florida coast there, near where you are.
		And they have talked about the K-T event seeing evidence of the K-T event also long ago that supposedly killed off the dinosaurs in the sediment in the core sample.
		Are you familiar with that?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		That was done in the Atlantic Ocean about the Yucatan Peninsula and an asteroid striking the Earth 65 million years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		It's all a bunch of bologna.
		It's true the Earth has many layers, and it's true asteroids strike the Earth all the time.
		There's a big hole out in Arizona, the Beringer Crater.
		I've been in there.
		Craters all over.
		But the geologic column is how they really date these things.
		So, you know, I asked your evolutionist friend who asked you to note there, you know, how do you tell the difference between Jurassic limestone and Cambrian limestone?
		He will have to respond, if he's honest, by saying, well, we can tell which age it is by the fossils it contains.
		If it contains a dinosaur bone, it must be Jurassic and 100 million years old.
		If it contains a trilobite, it is therefore Cambrian, 600 million.
		The layers are dated by the fossils they contain.
		Now, those fossils are arranged in order based upon the assumption that evolution is true.
		That was all done really 2,000 years ago with Aristotle and these guys with their great chain of being.
		Darwin kind of copied that and said, well, you know, it's arranged things in order, and we go from, you know, man at the top down to simple life forms at the bottom.
		It's no different than what Aristotle and these guys said, you know, 2,500 years ago.
		So really, they arranged things in order that they thought they would have evolved in.
		They picked a time for how long it would take to change from a fish to an amphibian to a reptile to a mammal, etc.
		And then, if you find a bird fossil, for instance, in a certain layer of rock, the rock will be dated because of the fossil.
		Layers of rock are dated by the types of fossils they contain.
		And then they turn right around and date the fossils by which layer they're found in.
		It's called circular reasoning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Circular reasoning.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Again, it wouldn't hold up 10 seconds in a court of law with a freshman law student.
		And yet that's how they date these things.
		And I've got all sorts of quotes from a major brand-name evolutionists who are admitting it.
		Hey, look, this is definitely based on circular reasoning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I understand.
		Here's another one for you.
		Hi, Art.
		I beg to differ with your guests.
		He said there was no proof that there were any other planets around any other stars.
		I thought the Hubble telescope had just discovered several planets around other stars.
		What does your guest have to say about this?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Okay, they discovered there was a wobble that was producing a light phenomena that was producing, as they looked at the star, it wasn't the Hubble either, it was a ground-based telescope, and it was a wobble that was producing this effect of dark spots.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That they would say could only be accounted for by the presence of a mass, a planet.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but then it was later discovered, nope, sorry, that was a goof.
		It was not a planet.
		It was just a, not a wobble in the star.
		It was a wobble in the telescope.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was causing this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think I missed that story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where did that run?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I don't remember.
		I've got mountains of stuff here, but there was a retraction on that about the planets being seen around another star.
		There may be planets around other stars.
		I'm not saying there aren't.
		I'm just saying so far it hasn't been proven.
		And if it was proven, that still, of course, doesn't prove there's any life on them.
		We've got planets an awful lot closer right here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No life.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		And no life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That we know of.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, again, you discount the Mars rock.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		And I don't think you'll find anybody at NASA even who will say that that rock was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they did say that.
		They had a press conference.
		And as a matter of fact, they have defended.
		There have been a couple of universities that took big shots at them, and they stand by their original press conference disclosure that it is life.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		You better call them back because all the press releases and things I've seen are saying...
		Well, the wiggly line they saw in this rock that they thought might be evidence of a bacteria reproducing or something is also the same exact wiggly line you get from a chemical reaction.
		I forget which chemicals it is, but two chemicals react and it produces this phenomenon.
		And so, no, it was not evidence of life on Mars.
		Some people there at NASA may have originally thought that it was, but I think there was also definitely a political motive.
		We've got to get our money out of Congress somehow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		When we come back, I want to talk a little bit about dinosaurs, and then I want to get the lines open.
		How would that be?
unidentified		It'd be great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Dinosaurs then coming up.
		Dr. Hovand contends they still exist now on Earth.
		I wonder if they're on a little island off Central or South America, someplace in a Jurassic Park kind of setting, or whether they're all around us.
		Because I haven't seen a dinosaur alive.
		Now, I've seen the skeletons.
		And boy, those were big suckers.
		He doesn't think they were, though.
		We'll talk about all of that.
unidentified		Coming up, this is Coast to Coast, A.M. When it's alright, it's not.
		We gotta get right back to where we started from.
		Love is good, love is strong.
		We gotta get right back to where we started from.
		We gotta get right back to where we started from.
		Art Bell is taking your calls on the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		This is Coast to Coast A.M. from the Kingdom of By with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep, getting right back to where we started from, in the case of Dr. Hovind and other creationists, that would be the Garden of Eden, I suppose, wouldn't it?
		And maybe that is where we're going.
		I don't know.
		But the facts.
		Well, all right.
		I expect active debate with Dr. Hovind from you, and we are about to open the lines, and I will simply issue the following warning.
		You go ahead and come at him hard as you want on the issues, but if you come at him with an ad hominem attack, I will blast you out of here like a skier hit a tree.
		So having said that, we are going to go to the phone shortly.
		I've got a couple of questions.
		is about dinosaurs.
		Doctor, did dinosaurs what And they were really big.
		You contend they weren't that big.
		Is that true?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, no, no.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		They were that big.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They were that big?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		They didn't live that long ago.
		That's what they're telling you.
unidentified		That's all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As a matter of fact, you contend there still are some on earth alive today.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are they?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me give you a two-minute creationist scenario, so it'll make sense.
unidentified		Okay.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		The Bible says before the flood, people lived to be over 900 years of age.
unidentified		Right.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		It says in Genesis 1, 6, and 7, there was a canopy of water above the earth that protected the earth and made it like a big greenhouse, basically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A canopy of water.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Today's atmosphere has six layers.
		Troposphere, stratosphere, mesosphere, thermosphere, exosphere, and ionosphere.
		Apparently, there used to be a seventh.
		Either an ice ring like some of the planets have or a vapor barrier like some of the planets have.
		Venus and Uranus have a vapor barrier.
		Jupiter have a vapor canopy.
unidentified		But however, it was up there.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		There was a layer of water up there, according to Scripture.
		This made the Earth like a greenhouse, increased air pressure, and allowed the people to live longer.
		Explaining why the increased air pressure would explain why the dinosaurs we find have all the indications of having very small lungs and certainly having small nostrils, and yet they were huge.
		An 80-foot appatosaurus would have nostrils the same size as a horse.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Couldn't get enough air.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Couldn't breathe.
		Today he couldn't.
		But if you had richer oxygen in the air and or higher air pressure, then he could breathe just fine with smaller lungs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		True.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		And since reptiles never stop growing, whereas mammals do, in the pre-flood world, reptiles would be enormous.
		They'd be 80, 100 feet long.
		You know, there's, I think 150 foot is the record from the one found in Alberta.
		Right.
		Still excavating it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gigantosaurus or something.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Something like that, right.
		Anyway, so yes, dinosaurs were huge, but they were just big reptiles that lived before the flood with the people in the Garden of Eden and around the world.
		Then, I believe Noah took them on the ark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They were in the Garden of Eden.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		Adam named all the animals.
		They're just big, friendly lizards.
		All the animals were vegetarian according to Genesis 1.29.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about Tryanosaurus Rex?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They say he was a meat eater.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, Jurassic Park said that.
		That was made long after the Garden of Eden was gone.
		T. Rex has many indications, like the chlorophyll stains found in their tracks and the enamel in their teeth, and certainly the short arms.
		He couldn't even reach his head.
		He couldn't hold anything while he bit into it.
		In spite of all the Hollywood propaganda, an awful lot of scientists think T-Rex was always a scavenger or a vegetarian.
unidentified		Okay.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		But anyway, dinosaurs then, two of each kind, and I'll use that word carefully instead of the word species, two of each kind of all the animals were taken onto Noah's Ark.
		Probably babies.
		He'd be smart enough to figure that out.
		Just be sure to get a pink one and a blue one.
		And after the flood was over, the world was different because this canopy of water that used to protect them was now gone.
		It had rained 40 days and 40 nights, and now the oceans were huge.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you contend that that canopy of water is what caused the flood?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		One of the causes.
unidentified		Okay.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		The Bible also says the fountains of the Great Deep were broken open, so subterranean water came out, probably along the cracks like the San Andreas Fault and the New Madrid Fault and the Mid-Atlantic Ridge.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you got it from both sides, above the floor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You got it from both sides.
unidentified		Gotcha.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		So after the flood, everybody gets off the ark and they have really a devastated world, very different, and lifespans begin to drop off immediately.
		The people born after the flood only lived to be 400, and then it drops off to 200 and then down to 100, which is pretty much max today.
		So this was due to the climate changes and probably numerous factors, increased radiation coming in with this canopy being gone.
		Water is a great filter to filter out radiation and UV light.
		And so anyway, dinosaurs began to be smaller and they began to die off because of the climate changes, primarily.
		The second thing that happened, I believe, was they were being killed off by man, which is why we have so many, literally thousands of legends of people killing dragons.
		The word dinosaur was just made up in 1841, so they didn't call them dinosaurs.
		They called them dragons.
		They're mentioned all through history from every major culture.
		And the few small ones still alive today, I'll give you just Loch Ness monster, for instance.
		11,000 people now claim they have seen it.
		They all claim it is a plesiosaurus, a swimming dinosaur.
		There have been about 1,000 people who claim they've seen one very similar to that in Lake Champlain, Vermont, called the Lake Champlain monster.
		There's one in Lake Okanagan, Canada, called the Ogapogo, which is north of Washington State in British Columbia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So Nessie is a dinosaur.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		It's 20, 25, 30 feet long.
		And that would be my contention, that there's just so much evidence that something exists in that lake.
		11,000 reported sightings.
		I mean, there must be something to this.
		I've never been there, never seen it.
		But I have personally interviewed probably 50 people who have seen these type of creatures in various places.
		A Japanese fishing boat caught one, a dead carcass of one, in their net in 1977.
		It made news everywhere, except not much in America.
		Some of the American scientists who never saw the thing and never had it in their hands said, we think it was a basking shark.
		But the Japanese scientists who had it in their boat said, look, we know what a basking shark is.
		We're professional fishermen.
		This was a dinosaur, a plesiosaurus.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about Bigfoot?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Same answer?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Possibly.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've done a lot of research on that, and I haven't come to a conclusion yet.
		But with dinosaurs, I think it's pretty definitive.
		In 1925, a dead dinosaur 40 feet long washed up on a beach in California, in Monterey.
		There's a book, which I can get in my hand in a minute here.
		I've got it in my library somewhere, called Shipwrecks and Sea Monsters of California's Central Coast.
		And there are some excellent photographs of it.
		It happened in 1925, so there are only black and white photos.
		But you can see this creature with a 20-foot-long neck laying there on the beach.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, I sure would like to have one of those photographs.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, I show all of those photographs and many, many more in my video series.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Videotape number two is all about dinosaurs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you happen to have any still photographs, computer-friendly, for example, that one could post on a website?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		We have just gotten a website, and I have a computer genius who works for me, and I will mention that to him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you don't have those photos up there yet?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		I don't have them up there yet, but I do have all of my...
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		It includes all those pictures and documentation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, listen, listen.
		I've got a big website, millions of hits.
		I will have a link up in about five minutes if you give me the URL.
		In other words, what is the address of your website?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		My web is DrDino, D-R-D-I-N-O, dot com.
		But none of those pictures are on there yet.
		But we have them all in PowerPoint program, and I use them for my presentation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, we need to get them up there.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I could make a C D for anybody, which is thousands of pictures, and several people who speak on creation use my material.
		None of it's copyrighted, and I encourage them to do that.
		That's an idea.
		I'll tell Brian in the morning when he comes in to put some of that on there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		All right, then we'll look for that in the next 24 hours.
		In the meantime, we will get a link up here.
		Believe me, probably as we're speaking, it's going up.
		So, folks, if you want to see his website, www.artbell.com, just go on down to the good doctor's name, click on that, and you will go over to drdino.com, and you can take a look.
		And then in the next couple of days or so, we'll get the pictures of dinosaurs up there.
		I'm really looking forward to that.
		All right, we're about to go to the Thorns, but I've got a couple of questions I've got to ask.
		One from Sioux Falls, South Dakota, a series of questions.
		Ask the good doctor the age of Mount Everest.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, I think all of the mountains were formed during the last few months of the flood.
		The Bible says in Psalms 104, the mountains arose and the valleys sank down during the last part of the flood.
		The flood lasted 13 months altogether.
		Noah's flood did.
		So the crust of the earth is very thin compared to the size of the earth.
		The ocean crust averages about three miles thick, three to five miles.
		Whereas the continental crust averages about 30 miles thick.
		Compared to an 8,000-mile earth, that's nothing.
		Actually, the crust of the earth compared to the size of the earth is less than the skin of an apple compared to the apple.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		We're talking real thin.
		So the earth is covered with water, and there's enough water in the oceans right now to cover the earth a mile and a half deep if the earth were smoothed down.
		I flew over the Pacific Ocean coming back from Australia a few months ago, speaking over there, and I told one of the men in the office, I said, man, the Pacific Ocean is huge.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		He said, no, that's just the top of it.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Pretty powerful thought.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
		You've really answered the next question.
		Ask him when Everest was formed.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		I think it was formed after the flood.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		When they climbed Mount Everest, 1953, Edmund Hillary, at the 26,000-foot level, 3,000 feet from the top, he began finding petrified seashells.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're ahead of me, because ask him how fossils can be found near the peaks of Everest.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the whole top of the mountain, actually, for 3,000 feet, it is sedimentary rock full of seashells.
		So Mount Everest, how do you phrase this?
		Mount Everest, the water wasn't over Mount Everest at the height that it is today.
		Mount Everest lifted up during the last part of the flood.
unidentified		All the mountains lifted up.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		The crust of the earth wrinkled.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Sections sank down, you know, and plates, the earth was broken up into plates, and certain, you know, some plates would tilt up, and one area comes up, makes a mountain range, another side goes down and makes an ocean.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so to cut to the chase, you would contend it acquired its fossils as it rose through the flood?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe the first, it acquired its fossils, dead animals, at least, in the first few months while it was underwater, and then it arose.
		Just the act of rising, the pressure squeezes limestone pretty hard and squeezes out a lot of the water.
		And if it's acidic, which of course dead plants produce carbonic acid and makes the water acidic, then it would eat out the limestone quickly while it was soft, and you would get caves and things like that.
		The majority, the vast majority of the cavern system, like Carlsbad and things, were probably formed in the first few years after the flood because the limestone was still soft and the water was still acidic being squeezed out of them by the mountains lifting and the valley sinking down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		One more question, then we go to the phones.
		It is from the same Mike in Sioux Falls.
		It's the $64 million question.
		Ask him who married Cain.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Oh, the Bible says in Genesis chapter 5 that Adam lived after he begat Seth, who was his third son.
		He had Cain, Abel, and then Seth.
		It says he lived after Seth 800 years and begat sons and daughters.
		You could have an awful lot of kids in 800 years.
		So in the first generation, they married sisters.
		There was no other choice.
		There were no laws against it.
		There was nobody to report them to.
		And there were no deformed chromosomes.
		The laws against marrying sisters were not given until Moses 2,500 years later.
		Even Abraham married his half-sister, according to Scripture.
		Of course, the evolutionist has a much worse problem.
		They always bring that one out.
		Who did Cain marry?
		But they don't stop and look in the mirror and say, man, what a problem they have, because they have to get two cells to evolve out of the rocks at the same time, in the same place, of the opposite sex.
		Talk about a major problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let's turn to the phones.
		And here we go.
		You'll see what a diverse audience there is.
		First time caller line, you're on air with Dr. Hovind.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How are you doing?
		Okay, where are you?
		I'm in Akron, Ohio.
unidentified		This is Matthew.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Matthew, hi.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Well, actually, as far as inbreeding goes, you just tackled my first question.
		My second question is, he seems to say that the Bible is almost flawless.
		It's truth.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		But what I'm saying is flawless, yes, sir.
unidentified		The Bible isn't God's word so much as it is God's ideas through man words.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Wouldn't that be inherently fallible?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Who taught you that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, God didn't write the Bible.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		He wrote it through man, didn't he?
		Well, if I dictate a letter to my secretary and she types it out, it's my thoughts.
		It's my words.
		She just typist.
unidentified		So you believe that man would be capable of almost understanding God's ideas then?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		No, no.
		I think even some of the Bible says many of the prophets, after they had written what they had written, they said, God, what does this mean?
		They didn't even understand it themselves.
		I read Daniel the last few chapters.
		You know, Daniel said, God, what does this mean?
		God said, don't worry about it, Daniel.
		It's not for you.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have a good evening.
		All right.
		Thank you, sir, for the call.
		Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Art Bell and Dr. Holvind.
unidentified		Hi.
		Yes, gentlemen, good morning.
		How are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you've got some hum on your phone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you calling from, sir?
unidentified		I'm in Baton Ridge, Louisiana.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		I'd like to address the issue of theistic evolution.
		Okay.
		Doctor?
		Yeah.
		My first encounter with an evolutionary theorist was my freshman days in college.
		He insisted that all higher vertebrates are reptiles.
		And it occurred to me that I was a vertebrate.
		So I took issue with him, and he insisted that this was true, And went on to say that he was a Christian.
		And I told him that he was the first born-again lizard I'd ever met, if that were true.
		But my question to you is: how do the theistic evolutionists account for the shedding of blood on the face of the earth before the fall of man?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		That's an excellent question.
		I think the theistic evolutionist, and let me define that position as I understand it, a person who says God used the evolution process to bring the world into being.
		Generally, there's several varieties of those, but they all kind of fit under that umbrella.
		I would say they're in a very precarious position.
		They're certainly beyond, they're outside of the scripture.
		They can't claim to believe the Bible.
		There's no question there, because that's not the scriptural position.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I agree with you.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		And they're outside of science because they're trying to bring the supernatural into the scientific world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I agree again.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		And so neither group wants those.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why is it not a reasonable explanation for two theories, and you'll just have to accept that from me, both of which are not entirely scientifically verifiable?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Neither creation nor evolution are scientifically verifiable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what I said.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then why is it an unreasonable position to take in view of that?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it is certainly an unreasonable position that we have in our school system where all of the taxpayers are paying for one of those religions to be taught at the exclusion of the other.
		So my contention is evolution is a religion.
		Why do I have to pay for that religion to be taught in a school system?
		As far as trying to combine the two and theistic evolutionists, somebody told me, he was pretty mad at one of the seminars I did.
		He said, well, you don't leave much room for us folks who believe God used evolution, do you?
		I said, well, man, you've got a retarded God.
		Doesn't he know how to make it right first time?
		Does he have to play around and practice?
		I mean, what kind of God is this anyway?
		My God made it right first time.
		And he wouldn't use this process of long millions of years of misfits and suffering and death and, you know, doesn't know what he wants, can't make it right.
		You can worship that God if you'd like, but I wouldn't worship him.
		That's not the God that I would bow down and worship.
		So it's certainly not the same God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it the same God that today allows slaughter and genocide and biological weapons and nuclear weapons and on and on and on and on?
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, we're getting off on another subject there.
		As far as God allowing that, I suppose that's the question we'll have to ask him.
		That doesn't mean he's causing it.
		I mean, if my neighbor comes over and shoots me, that's not God's fault.
		That's the neighbor's fault.
		He did that.
		And what Hitler did was Hitler's fault.
		You can't blame that on God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay, then you're saying God is kind of hands-off.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Well, for now, there's going to be a judgment day, a day of reckoning.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		So it's coming.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that'll be hands-on time.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy, that will be hands-on time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Again, though, for those of us who wish to believe that or embrace portions of both, we're cherry-picking and we're out of our minds.
		But you see, I came at you and I said, look, both theories, evolution and creation, are not totally verifiable by any scientific method that we know of.
		You're tearing evolution apart tonight.
		And I think you have many good points, as does the other side.
		So I choose to sort of believe in the middle that why not combine them and imagine that God allowed an evolutionary process to ensue as he allows free will now on earth.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As in your neighbor killing you.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Right.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		And about 30% of the population of America take that position, according to the surveys.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Interesting.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		About 60% say, no, God did it, and he didn't use any evolution.
		I think probably one thing we should have done earlier is define the term evolution.
		I don't know if you got that little fax I sent you with the chart showing micro and macro evolution.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I did, yes.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Microevolution is a fact of science.
		That happens.
		Nobody questions that I know of.
		It's a fact that roses produce a variety of roses.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		You can watch it happen.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		You can make it happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		It's also a fact that dogs produce a variety of dogs.
		There's probably 250 varieties of dogs right now.
		And it's probably a fact that they all had a common ancestor, and they may even have the same ancestor as the wolf and the coyote.
		But if you stand 30 feet away and look at them, it's still a dog.
		It's the same kind of animal.
		Okay, these are facts.
		Microevolution is really, I hate to use that term.
		I prefer to call it just variation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Microchange?
unidentified		Sure.
kent hovind ▲ ● ▼		That does not prove that the dog and the rose have a common ancestor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, on that note, Doctor, we've got a break.
		We're a network.
		We live with these time constraints, but we'll be back.
		Grab a cup of something, and we'll be right back.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies.
		Dial 1-800-825-5033.
		That's 1-800-825-5033.
		Now, here again is Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am.
		Well, you're listening to Robert O'Dean.
		Robert O'Dean was an intelligence analyst at NATO.
		Robert O'Dean worked in a war room.
		Robert O'Dean worked for FEMA.
		And listen to what he's telling you.
		So what do you conclude?
		You've got to either conclude that he's crazy as a loon, or there's a real good chance he knows a lot of stuff we don't.
		And to me, the last one seems the greater possibility.
		We'll get back to him in a moment.
		Eyal, we'll start taking calls.
		I want to talk a little bit about abduction, then we'll take calls.
		A current issue of Newsweek magazine lists as one of its pictures of the year what I'm going to tell you about now.
		If you appreciate the epic grandeur of landscapes like the ones captured by Ansel Adams, you've got to see What we've got, this picture of Hailbop, the definitive Hailbop portrait, was captured in March of 97 by Alaskan photographer Kerry Anderson.
		This comet is pictured in the night sky, blazing across a clear night sky over snow-capped Alaskan mountains inside the northern lights, the Aurora Borealis.
		It is something that'll take your breath away.
		It's 18 by 24-inch gallery reproduction on 80-pound stock, individually numbered, and then hand-signed by both Alan Hale and Thomas Bopp, who are under exclusive contract to Dr. Nick Bagich of Earth Pulse Press.
		Now, you can get one.
		It's $100 plus $10 shipping.
		And it is a bargain.
		The number is 1-888-690-1277.
		That's 1-888-690-1277.
		It's on my wall, and I guarantee it will take your breath away.
		Mark.
		All right, well, I'm keeping my eye on this story, as you know.
		Here's another one, Art.
		When you mentioned the mystery flu in L.A., it put a shiver up my back.
		I'm from Somerville, New Jersey, and a couple of local hospitals have closed their doors here because they're full of people with a mystery flu.
		First hospital to turn away people was in Phillipsburg, New Jersey.
		I'll try and find the newspaper article and send you a copy regards George, and I won't give his last name.
		This story is bugging me.
		Upon, I guess, intended.
		This story is starting to bug me.
		And I'm not, you know, maybe it's just a heavy flu, you know, it's a bad flu season.
		I don't know.
		But there's something that's taking a left turn when it ought to be taking a right turn about this story.
		It's not being covered.
		I don't know.
		And I just reserve judgment.
		I don't want to, as far as I know, it's the flu, you know, and people are recovering.
		But there's some great story that is not being told here, I think.
		Once again, or I guess once again right now, Robert O'Dean is here.
		And Robert, I do want to begin asking you a little bit about these abductions.
		First of all, there's a large group of people out there who believe that this cabal we talked about, this group we talked about earlier, made some kind of deal with some of them to be able to take some of us for genetic tomfoolery or some very good cause, who knows, but that a deal was made.
		Is that what you believe?
		I've heard those rumors, Art, and I'm not sure I'm convinced of the reality of that.
		God, I hope not.
		Yeah, I hope not, too.
		I hope that some of our people in government, whoever the hell they might be, are not stupid enough to have made a deal of that kind.
		Okay, let's say they did, just for the sake of the conversation.
		Then that means that they're snapping up people for nefarious reasons, and we ought to damn well be shooting at them.
		Well, I'll tell you, my own view is that this genetic monitoring system or program, whatever you wish to call it, has been going on for a hell of a long time.
		We've only begun just recently to start paying attention to it.
		And I have a great admiration for both Bud Hopkins and John Mack because those guys are right on top of what this story is all about.
		But it's a worldwide phenomenon.
		It's been going on for a very long time, and people are only now beginning to pay attention.
		Yes, it appears that some of these little gray dudes are going around picking people up and taking samples of one thing or another.
		Impregnating women?
unidentified		Well, yes, it seems to be happening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know, Art.
		I'm not an expert, and I don't even pretend to be.
		I tell you that there are things I don't know the answers to, but I do believe that abductions are happening, and I believe they've been going on for a long time.
		And the people are so disturbed that they need counseling.
		They need phone lines like the one you've got to call up to get counseling.
		So if they're really doing that to us, Bob, then we ought to shoot at them.
		Well, I mean, what are they doing?
		Messing with earth women?
		Yeah, well, they're doing the same things we do.
		We've been doing the same thing for a long time.
		Ah, all right.
		Again, with your background in theology, I've got two stories that are either encouraging or terribly discouraging.
		One, that we've got a scientist near Chicago, who I'm dying to interview, who's going to clone in 90 days, unless somebody stops him, a human being.
		We've got scientists who have successfully switched monkeys' heads and are keeping them alive.
		You know what I'm saying?
		Just switch it.
		Now, you take those technologies, the fact of their existence or just about their existence, and they can do it.
		And, yeah, we're doing some pretty strange things down here on Earth.
		There's no question about it.
		How do you feel about our meandering into these areas, these godlike areas?
		Well, Art, we meandered into this area about 15 to 20 years ago.
		It's nothing new.
		What's new is that the people are now just beginning to pay attention.
		Your government and mine, in its infinite wisdom, and I say your government because I don't know who the hell we're actually speaking about, they've been involved in human cloning and genetic research for well over 20 years now.
		You know what?
		I don't doubt it.
		I don't doubt it.
		I've said for a long time this has been going on in labs, secret labs.
		You can just bet on it.
		It's like aircraft development.
		We don't know about a plane until it's already been flying for 15 to 20 years.
		It's the same thing with this human genome project.
		We've been testing and coming up with answers for a hell of a long time, and none of that information has been released.
		This thing with that sheep, what did they call it, Dolly or something?
		Yeah, Dolly.
		That's nothing new.
		That's old news.
		Well, I certainly believe with all of the logic inside of me, Bob, that Dolly and now even this human cloning project.
		These are in the private sector.
		Our government, with its $80 billion of black project money, has been doing this kind of stuff for a long time.
		So I agree with that.
		Citizen Art, there is a positive side to this genetic research.
		Right.
		Well, you mean with disease and so forth.
		Yeah, we can actually go in there and take the negative stuff out and put some positive stuff in.
		And just imagine what that's going to mean for the future of the human race.
		Well, I do imagine, and I'm not sure all of it's, I'm not comfortable with all of it, but maybe I'll grow to be.
		I don't know.
		I can imagine a big upside and I can imagine a big downside, like with anything, like with atomic power.
		If they can come up with something that can literally eliminate most of our major diseases, I'm all for it.
		I would like to see something to eliminate sickle cell anemia, for example.
		Cancer.
		And cancer.
		Heart disease.
		And the evidence that I have seen indicates that we've already made some enormous strides in that area.
		But what we've got to do is get it out into the light of day and get it out into the hands of the people so that it isn't abused, that we don't end up cloning human beings and turning them into stupid soldiers to go out and kill each other.
		But isn't that what we'll do?
		I mean, do you see any signs that the wars have stopped?
		That our warlike nature has changed?
		Do you see signs?
		Well, I see hopeful signs in Western Europe and in the United States.
		I see hopeful signs in the United Nations.
		I see hopeful signs even in the Middle East that there are rational and thoughtful people who are really beginning to pay some serious attention.
		We bounce back and forth, Bob, with Iraq and Iran.
	I know.
	We have sold Iraq biological stuff that is probably going to be used against us.
	Now, Iraq's the enemy.
	We're spoiling for a fight again with Saddam.
	Yeah.
	And we're cozying up to Iran again.
	It's like an endless cycle, and I wish that I could be as optimistic as you.
	I'm not.
	I want to read you something, and this will just take a second, then you can react to it.
	Here it comes.
	It's from Ken in Oregon.
	Art, I really enjoyed your guest last night, as I do tonight's, but I must take issue.
	First, when you asked the creationist last night if his faith would be shaken if UFOs were revealed to him as fact, though he was evasive, and you had to ask him twice, I don't recall him saying yes to his faith being shaken.
	Well, later in the program, I came back to that, Ken, and he did finally give a bottom-line yes.
	He goes on, tonight's guest is even more skewed in some respects, in my opinion.
	I am very interested in his experiences.
	That is until he begins twisting the different world religions into his UFO experiences.
	When Jesus said, I have other flocks, he could have been referring to the Gentiles, the American Indians, the Mayans, or life on other planets.
	But he did not state, quote, I have flocks on other planets.
	The theme of the Bible is the love of God and man's redemption through Christ, not proof that UFOs are visiting us now.
	Admittedly, some of those Old Testament things are absolutely described as UFOs.
	And I, of course, quoted Ezekiel to him, and he said he was stuck on that one.
	So he goes on, although many of the world's religions have common themes, in other words, differing but similar worldwide flood stories, the need for love for each other and so forth, the paths are different.
	The Jews await the coming of the Messiah.
	For the first time, Christians, the second time, Hindus look forward to reincarnation.
	Buddhas seek nirvana.
	One would have to look very hard to find evidence of a common belief in UFOs in the different theologies.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You want to tackle that one?
		That's a pretty big challenge.
		I have to reiterate something here.
		One, it must be understood clearly that much of what I share with you tonight is my own opinions after over 30 years of research.
		I'm not an expert.
		I'm not a world-class scholar, and I don't pretend to be.
		But I have done some homework, and I have done some deep research over the years, and I am convinced of the unity and the oneness of the human species.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		And I would rather approach this and look at our similarities.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Than our differences.
		And I do believe that in every major philosophical theology, that there is a lot of common ground there.
		That we're not as distant from the Jews or the Muslims or the Hindus or the Buddhists as we might think we are.
		Well, that's why you've got me to be Mr. Negative and cynical.
		I would say that the groups you just mentioned, in the name of their various gods, have been killing each other and continue to do so today at an amazing rate.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, that's just a fact.
		Yeah, that's a fact, yeah.
		All right, look, I want to go to the phones and let's see what the audience has to say.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Robert O'Dean.
		Where are you, please?
		A suburb of Chicago.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'd like to talk to Mr. O'Dean about security clearances.
		It seems like every, I've listened to your show for a long time, Art, and a lot of the blockbuster big stories come out are from the military or from military bases.
		That's correct, yes.
		And what I would like to ask, Ms. Herdick, why when you agree that there's literally thousands of people that have top secret clearances?
		Ms. Herdine?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you agree with that?
		Yeah, you said, yeah, true.
		Yeah, and so, you know, there's the only way you can control this is something called a need to know.
		Exactly.
		Now, Let's speculate for a moment that the UFO controversy let's put this let's say it's true and we put it on a scale of one to five how do you know that the need to know for the military isn't cut off at say four well we know this that the need to know for some of the military is cut off at whatever level I've talked to generals and admirals who frankly have not seen half of some of the stuff that I have there
		are people who are not involved with the compartmentalist aspect of security.
		Right.
		That they can have a top secret clearance and not know anything about what we've been talking about.
		And apparently that's been happening with the Joint Chiefs, and Ed Mitchell encountered that in July.
		That is a reality, and your point is well made.
		The security problem in this country, which we've created in our wisdom over the years, is literally a nightmare.
		Here's another thing that we've got to tackle, but we tackled it a little bit on Monday night, Tuesday morning's program.
		And that is that we do have a big black budget, 80 billion, maybe more, who the hell knows, billions going into these black projects.
		Now, we also have in this country, and you know it better than anybody, a legitimate need for national security.
		Right.
		We have a legitimate reason to have secret projects, probably to be doing things in space, probably to be developing Star Wars type stuff, and I could go on and on and on.
		Legitimate.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		To protect our nation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, that is absolutely mixed in with the kind of open revelation that you're talking about with regard to the others.
		I mean, it's mixed in.
		And how do you separate it?
		How do you get together military guys who have taken oaths?
		You took an oath, right?
		Right.
		You're breaking that oath now, right?
unidentified		Indeed, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		So, how do you separate real security needs so that we can tell the story that needs to be told without blowing national security?
		Answer that.
		Well, in my opinion, and that's all I can share with you, Art, is that if this matter, this entire issue, would be placed back into the halls of Congress within our elected representatives who represent the people, that determination of what can be brought out and what should not be brought out could be made.
		At the moment, those decisions are being made by a select elite group of bureaucrats who are not elected.
		They're not responsible.
		They're not...
		They don't in any way report to either the American people or to Congress.
		And I think that is the problem we're dealing with here.
		I believe that the congressional system, the constitutional system, if it's used properly, could make the determination that there are some things that we should not let out.
		But, damn it, I guess I'm old-fashioned.
		I believe that this government of this country is of and by and for the people.
		And I've lived long enough that I can see that there are people who have misused this system.
		the people just are not being considered anymore.
		our elected representatives don't even know what the hell they are okay try this one out for size we've been discussing the u.s if they are real and they are here and they have been visiting for well maybe since we were created then governments all over the world the russian government the chinese government the british government the french government the africa even the african government a lot of governments i could think of the canadian government all of these governments
		would have to be to some degree aware of this as well so now you're talking just not about the u.s but about a good portion of the world well the indications are is that this majestic group whoever the hell they are or whatever they call themselves is multinational there's a strong indication that it's not just u.s that there are representatives of some of the major world governments involved in this thing boy that's some serious secret management boy
		You tell me it is.
		What's been going on in England?
		They've got an official secrets act over there that is worse than our own.
		Oh, you're telling me they can shut media down over there and say, no, you will not broadcast that.
		Well, I would like to remind the American people, while I've got a little bit of their attention tonight, is that the agency, this famous central intelligence group, back in 1991 published a special report for Robert Gates.
		And they boasted about the fact that they have been able to persuade reporters to postpone, change, hold, or even scrap stories that could have adversely affected the national security interests or jeopardized sources and methods.
		But who makes those decisions?
		You know, I would sure, I guess that is the $64 billion question.
		Exactly.
		Who makes those decisions?
		And who's spending all that black money?
		Oh, Robert, hold on.
		We're at the bottom of the hour, and when we get back, we've got to really dive into the phones, all right?
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, stay right there.
		Robert O'Dean.
		It's been a too long time With no peace of mind And I'm ready for the times To get better One thing seems sure One thing seems sure The times are about to change One way or the other I'm Art Bell And this is Coast to Coast AM I've got to
unidentified		tell you I've been wrapping my brain Hoping to find a way out I've had enough Of this continual rain
		Two
		talk with Art Bell from west of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico, dial 1-800-618-8255.
		That's 1-800-618-8255.
		Now again, here's Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am.
		Good morning to you all.
		My guest is Robert O'Dean, and we're about to go right back to him and press a couple of questions.
		What's the pain?
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here we go again, Robert O'Dean.
		Robert, I'm going to press you a little bit now on a couple of items, all right?
		From Portland, Oregon, dear art, ask Robert to please expand on what he read in the NATO documents on UFOs called the assessment.
		Well, how much time do we have left?
		This is radio.
		I have time.
		Give me the best version you can without, you know.
		Well, let me make it clear, if I can, Art, that my reading and my involvement with the assessment was simply a beginning for me.
		Much of the information that I've collected over the last 30, 35 years did not come from the assessment.
		But let's talk about what did.
		What did come from the assessment was enough to shake the hell out of me and everybody who saw it and read it.
		It affected a lot of our four-star generals and admirals because it concluded that we were not merely not alone, but we haven't been for a long, long time.
		They concluded in the study that there seemed to be some kind of a program or process underway.
		They didn't know what it was, but they could see that something was developing.
		They also learned in 64 that there were roughly four different groups we knew of at that time that were extraterrestrial.
		And that they determined, which was the primary reason for the study in the first place, that there did not appear, and I say repeat, did not appear to be a military threat involved.
		Because if these guys had been malevolent or hostile with the continually repeated demonstrations of their advanced technology, they would have cleaned our clock, as old Schwartzkopf likes to say, a long, long time ago.
		And that was essentially it.
		One, something big seems to be happening.
		It involves extraterrestrial intelligence.
		It's been going on for a very long time, and it did not, apparently, appear to be malevolent or a threat of some kind.
		That in itself is enough to shake the hell out of you.
		I know that American Air Force Force Star General Robert Lee, who was General Lemnitzer's air deputy at the time, was terribly affected by this thing.
		Where and when did you see this?
		I saw this in 1964 when it was finally published.
		We used to talk about it.
		The rumors went flying back and forth.
		They knew it was going on and it was underway.
		They published it in the summer of 1964.
		They only published 15 copies of this thing.
		Copy number one went to the Secretary General of NATO.
		Copy number two went to General Lyman Lemnitzer, who is my boss, and was known as Sakur, the Supreme Allied Commander of Europe.
		Copy three was placed in the vault in shock, in the war room.
		That was a copy that I and a number of others who worked in there full time would pull out in the wee hours of the morning and read it and read it and go over it again and again.
		I asked you earlier what you would have testified to had you gone back to Washington when the opportunity was there.
		Now, here's somebody in Richmond, Virginia says, Art, please ask what more testimony he would have given to Congress that he has not yet spoken about over the air.
		You did, after all, allude to things that you haven't talked about on the air or anywhere else yet.
		Well, I'm going to tell you bluntly, and I may get my ass in a jam over this, but I am in possession of some classified material and some classified documents that have never been downgraded or declassified.
		And I would have taken many of those things with me, and I would have presented them to this congressional group, and I would have shown them these things.
		And I probably would be in jail by now.
		But I do have material, and it's not in my house here, and I make that point very clear.
		Good idea.
		I don't keep it under my bed, but I do have access, and I'm not the only one, Art.
		I'm one of a number of these old boys who have a number of things that are very sensitive.
		Okay, you know, I've got to ask.
		What does it say?
		I'm sorry?
		You know, I've got to ask.
		What does it say?
		It says that we have not merely communicated with these guys, but we have some form of an ongoing relationship.
		And this is both from Central Intelligence Agency documentation, NSA documentation, and United States Air Force documentation.
		We have some kind of a relationship.
		Now, that's the thing that really ticks me off, because who made this agreement?
		Who made this decision?
		Who decided to have this relationship?
		Only Congress can do that.
		And apparently, Congress doesn't know anything about it.
		That's why I keep pushing for open hearings.
		I don't know art at this point whether I'll ever succeed.
		I may be long dead before this is ever resolved.
		You know, Bob, there are a lot of things that we say Congress doesn't know about, but that select members of the Senate, for example, do know about.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, it's not generally known throughout Congress, but there are select senators that are informed about things that the rest of the Senate doesn't have the slightest idea about.
		Well, when you've got a problem, Art, that's so serious where the chair of the Senate Appropriations Committee sent One of his personal staff members off to Groom Lake in Site 51 to try to find out what the hell was going on and where some of this black budget money was going.
		This representative of the Senate Appropriations Committee was taken on a grand tour and shown absolutely nothing.
		You know, you heard the term blowing smoke.
		Yes.
		Well, they blew smoke.
		And this guy comes back.
		He has got one of the highest access security clearances in the country.
		And he works and he's presently working for the chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee.
		That group does not know where the hell the money is coming from or where it's going.
		Now, that's how bad it is.
		Well, I know where it's coming from.
		Well, we know where the money's from.
		It's coming out of your pocket mine.
unidentified		We know that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We don't know that.
		Every American taxpayer out there.
		But who is making the decisions to spend this?
		When the senator who is chair of that committee wants to know what the hell is going on, sends his man out there, and they gave him the ring around the rosy treatment, and he came back learning nothing.
		And I'm tempted to give you his name, but I think that he himself needs to speak out about this.
		He's a brilliant man, and he's a trusted member of the Senate Appropriations Committee.
		Why do you think you're not in jail?
		I'm sorry?
		I said, why do you think you're not in jail now?
		Well, I've given that a lot of thought, and a number of others have as well.
		The only conclusion I can come to is that I seem to be, or I think that I've been doing something that somebody wants me to do.
		I've got a big mouth, Art.
		I've been speaking out now for almost four years.
		Yeah, I know.
		Me too.
		I've...
		In other words, hey, Art, how come the show is so big?
		How come it's so successful?
		How are you getting away with it?
		How are you getting away with it?
		That's right.
		People ask that all the time.
		And you know what?
		I come up with about the same answer.
		Well, maybe somebody wants me to be.
		Listen, I'm a realist.
		I've spent a lot of years in the Army, and I've been places I should never have been and all that stuff.
		I'm sure.
		They could shut me in a minute if they wanted to.
		No question about it.
		I mean, I could have an accident.
		I could have coronary.
		You know, these things can be arranged.
		I know.
		So I've concluded that apparently someone somewhere wants me to do what I'm doing.
		Now, there's a scientist in Connecticut that you probably have talked to, and I think you probably have interviewed.
		And that's Michael Wolf.
		Wolf tells me that his connections tell him that they do know exactly what I'm doing, and they are supporting what I'm trying to do.
		I'm not exactly surprised by that.
		I'm really not.
		And that's the only logical answer.
		Otherwise, we would be talking about Robert O'Dean, you know, who unfortunately had a heart attack, deceased.
		That's right.
		So that's exactly.
		That's the late Robert O'Dean.
		That's right.
		All right.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with the current Robert O'Dean.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Glad to be on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Now, first of all, I'd like him to ask, I also was in the government, and I was wondering if he also believes that the government is just a contractor for the exclusive businessmen of the world.
		In other words, the richest men of the world use the government just as a contractor to get things done that they want.
		And does he believe that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you got a point.
		I don't tell you that I believe that, but my question is, who in the hell are we talking about when we talk about the government?
		I used to think it was Congress, the President, the House of Representatives, the Senate.
		You know, I was taught years ago in school that we have three basic branches of government, the judicial, the legislative, and the executive.
		But we seem to be talking about something else, and that's the problem that I'm angry about.
		When we talk about government, who in the hell are we talking about?
		Your point is well made.
		Who is making these decisions?
		Who's sitting at the top of this pyramid?
		That's the thing the Joint Chiefs, I think, are troubled about.
		That's what some of the major senators, like the chairman of the Appropriations Committee, is troubled about.
		We can't seem to get a handle on who these guys are.
		I know this, that it is indeed a multi-agency, multinational thing.
		But your idea about the big businesses and the banks of the world controlling it, I hope you're wrong.
		Then, Robert, why wouldn't FEMA be an arm of that?
		Well, FEMA was created by the Senate and the House of Representatives.
		Actually, FEMA has its power as a result of an executive order that President Nixon gave a number of years ago.
		I know, but it would be an ideal agency.
		Well, yes, it would.
		But from the guys that I've known and worked with in FEMA, I don't seem to see that kind of black power.
		I don't seem to see that malevolence.
		The guys that I've known and gone to school with and trained with were basically good guys.
		I mean, they were patriotic Americans, and they were basically honest, and they were trying to do a decent job.
		Now, if there is indeed a black cabal out there of world banking business, damn it, we need to confront that.
		Maybe that's the area that we've got to open up and bring into the light of day.
		All right.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Robert O'Dean.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hello from cyberspace.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Cyberspace.
unidentified		Hey, yes, that's where I am.
		It's an honor and a thrill to speak to two American heroes, and I do mean that.
		Quickly on the FEMA issue, I think according to Executive Order No.
		12919, with FEMA being able to take control of pretty much everything, just keep in mind that if the people that are currently in the offices were to step out, the infrastructure would be there for someone else to use.
		And I do have two questions for your guest.
		The first is, in reference, I hope he will elaborate more upon the incredible work of Sitchin as far as the Anunnaki and the return of the 12th planet, my two questions are: A, could the visitors who often appear as tall reptiles, sometimes with the graves, actually be the Anunnaki returning to the basically mankind that they may have created, as seen in all of the Old Testament, Anuma-Wish, Mayan, etc.?
		And secondly, if the second face at Sidonia, which has been identified, could actually represent the Anunnaki, with the first face representing the Cro-Magnon, a precursor of mankind.
		They're pretty heavy-duty questions, but I think if your viewers will go to the internet and look at those two issues, a second phase two at Sidonia and the work of Sitchin, it will absolutely blow their minds, especially all of the entire Earth Chronicles from Sitchin, which I've frankly been pulling my brain through a pin and redefining everything and how I think you can look at past history as it's recorded.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, it sounds like you'll get agreement here.
		Bob?
		Well, it's not only interesting to hear that caller, because he's obviously somebody who's done his homework.
		I spoke to Zachariah about four weeks ago up in Phoenix, and he flatly tells me that the Anunnaki are back.
		He believes that they have reactivated their bases on Mars.
		And as a matter of fact, the Russian Phobos mission actually photographed an active facility up there that came across in the infrared.
		Very clearly.
		It's obviously generating a lot of heat, and it's under the surface.
		Zechariah is convinced it is the Anunnaki again.
		You know, there was also...
		There was also, Bob, a photograph taken at the very last second before destruction of a Russian probe to Mars of a gigantic craft.
		I mean, this thing snapped just before there was either a collision or it was destroyed or whatever, a Russian probe.
		That picture does exist out there.
		Well, there's a couple of photographs.
		I got a copy from Marina, the lady cosmonaut that's been outspoken about this.
		And the one thing they photographed was roughly 16 kilometers long.
		The other photograph that the Phobos mission took was of a gigantic shadow on the surface of Mars, of a streamlined, enormous object that apparently was casting a tremendous shadow.
		And they photographed that on the surface.
		So this is part of some of the material that we've got in this video we've put together.
		And if I can tell you that one more time...
		You have videos.
		One, 888-338-8581.
		And I'm told that if you guys order and get a hold of Joseph Bergeron over at Margana Nanagram, that Cecilia will send off a free reading list and a free congressional certificate, what do they call it here, initiative.
		We're trying to get people to sign up and be a part of this thing.
		All right.
		So the material is there, and there's another point I want to make, Art, that I don't want anybody tonight to believe a damn thing I've said simply because I've said it.
		I simply want people to go out and do their own homework.
		And I want them to inform themselves.
		And I think that getting a hold of these reading lists and getting a hold of some of these videos might be a good place to start.
		Yeah, it might be.
		East of the Rockies, you've got to buy in somewhere.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Robert O'Dean.
		Hello.
		Hi, Art.
		Where are you?
unidentified		This is Dan from Fort Worth, Texas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I had a couple of questions for Robert, if I would.
		Go.
unidentified		You were speaking about the Majestic 12 or whatever they're called now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do they employ men in black?
		Well, apparently they do.
		Who is it that's paying the bills up to those yo-yos over at Site-51?
		If A is true that there is this group, there would have to be, whether you call them men in black or you call them something else, there would have to be an act of arm of containment for that group.
		That's logical, right?
		Well, we know Wakenhutt has a lot of power and authority that they sure didn't get through congressional decisions.
		Yeah, that's a fact.
		So who the men in black are, I don't really know.
		It's a generic name they might know.
		Yeah, I know.
		Anyway, caller.
unidentified		The other question I had is what he thought about crop circles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ah, a good question.
		That, too, was brought up Monday night on the program.
		Crop circles, they really are a complete mystery.
		Doug Ruby has done a lot of good work.
		I interviewed Doug Ruby, a lot of other people.
		Any idea?
		Any guesses?
		Well, my own personal opinion is the crop circles are a definite form of communication by an advanced intelligence.
		Now, I've talked to a lot of guys who go out and make phony crop circles.
		Yep.
		That's been going on for a long time.
		But the real ones are kind of complicated and very intricate, and there's some aspects to them that no guys with a bunch of boards and string can really pull off.
		And so I've concluded many times, many years ago, that there is some communication.
		They are a form of communication, and I think we need to pay attention.
		I think an advanced intelligence is trying to get our attention, get us to wake up and start asking some proper questions here.
		All right, Robert, hold it right there, and we'll do a final hour in a moment in most markets.
		I want to read this.
		Hi, Art, Dick, and Dick here in Hawaii.
		Dick works for a major media outlet in Hawaii.
		Art, if you want interesting information on the flu, you should contact Ed Dames.
		He's currently staying with a person, a doctor, I won't give his name, on the big island of Hawaii.
		Last year, I met with Ed Dames and Joni at this person's house in Hilo.
		He showed me top-secret briefing eyes only for President Clinton prepared by officials, Centers for Disease Control.
		They warned Clinton about a coming influenza pandemic.
		They were talking about requiring shots for everybody, predicting the possibility of a 10% mortality rate.
		All right, I saw it with my own eyes.
		Ed showed it to me because we were at a party drinking wine, and I mentioned that I'm a health reporter.
		Ed, always something of a prankster, said, You want a health story?
		I'll show you something.
		And he pulled the briefing out of his briefcase.
		He would not let me copy it.
		Give Ed a call or me.
		And Dick gives me his number.
		So again, take of this information, some of it pretty far out on a limb regarding this flu or whatever the hell it is, with a grain of salt.
		But I keep getting these facts and I'm reading them to you as I get them.
		Now, again, none of it may be true.
		Well, no, I know a lot of it's true, but a lot of the farther out stuff may not be.
		However, I am tempted to give Dick a call.
		See if he'd go on the air with this.
		Anyway, we'll be right back.
		From the high deserts, this is Coast to Coast AF.

▲