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Jan. 6, 1998 - Art Bell

02:04:40

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Dr. Kent Hovind - Dispelling the Myth of Evolution

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	Good morning, everybody, and welcome to Coast to Coast AM.
	If you're just joining us at this hour, boy, have I got something good in store for you.
	Let me update you a little bit from last night.
	Tomorrow night, as I promised I would do, I'm going to have Robert O'Dean here, and I know a lot of you have been waiting for Robert O'Dean.
	He is a UFO researcher and analyst extraordinaire.
	He is president of Stargate International.
	And he has quite a story to tell.
	This night, though, we're going to do something we haven't done before.
	We are going to have a creationist on the show.
	And I'm going to tell you how it came to be.
	I was sent a fax.
	A lot of the guests that I have on the show come because of all of you.
	And that's the case here.
	It reads, Dear Art, I was given a tape by Dr. Kent Hovind, and that is how it is pronounced, incidentally, Hovind.
	I found it fascinating.
	Dr. Hovind travels the U.S.
	debating the theory of evolution, the Big Bang.
	He proves the world is not millions of years old, but rather 6,000 years old, and that dinosaurs still exist.
	He's based in Pensacola, Florida, and has been interviewed on radio before, many times, actually.
	And so, I followed up, and sure enough, I have for you tonight, Dr. Ken Hovind, and he is going to argue exactly that.
	And with all my guests, we will listen carefully, and I hope thoughtfully, and then when we get to call-ins, you will call and challenge him all you want, but you will be polite, or I will break your little arms and legs off.
	And while we're on the subject, of course the very sad news of Sonny Bono hitting a tree while skiing in South Lake Tahoe.
	He is being buried for that burial share.
	We'll cut short a trip to London to return to the U.S.
	for that.
	Very sad.
	Second skiing accident.
	Lots of people now calling for skiers to have to wear helmets.
	Helmets.
	Somebody wrote to me, Art, how about an airbag on every tree?
	So I said, how about an airbag on skiers?
	Really being facetious, I think the whole idea of mandating this kind of thing is crazy.
	And somebody else just faxed me and said, Art, airbags for trees are called tree huggers.
	Be much easier to put them on skiers.
	Either that or full body armor.
	I don't know.
	Somebody have to push you to get you started down the hill.
	And then I've got these two weird stories I'll read to you in a second.
	NASA has launched to the moon.
	It is a craft that is going to go look for water and other stuff, minerals and gases.
	It will arrive Sunday.
	It'll be a four and a half day trip.
	And isn't it interesting?
	Do you think we are about to Colonize the moon?
	Is that what this is all about?
	If they find and get water, does that cinch it?
	Is that what they're going for?
	Colonization of the moon?
	A moon base?
	What?
	I don't know.
	So, um, I want to read you these two stories, and I want Dr. Ken Hovind to hear them as well, because I find them so, uh, challenging.
	You're not going to believe this, but it's true.
	The following is from UPI.
	The headline is, Human Clone Coming in 90 Days.
	I'm not kidding.
	Subtitle, Scientist sub-headline, Plans First Human Cloning Soon.
	UPI, Chicago.
	A Chicago scientist says he hopes to begin the first attempt at cloning a human being within the next 90 days.
	Richard Seed, a physicist who worked in fertility research in the 1980s, told National Public Radio, NPR today, He is negotiating now with a Chicago area fertility clinic to offer, get this folks, human cloning.
	Building on the success of the Scottish scientists who cloned the adult sheep dolly last year, Seed says a doctor would remove the DNA from a woman's egg, replace it with DNA from the person to be cloned.
	Then the doctor would wait a few days to see whether the result is developing normally as an embryo.
	If so, the embryo then would be transferred to a woman's uterus and voila!
	We have a clone.
	If they're able to manipulate the DNA of a clone, they claim they could raise headless human beings.
	Now that story is bad enough or good enough depending on how you look at things, but follow it up with this story.
	Surgeons switch heads on living monkeys.
	At least 30 monkeys were involved in a scientific experiment in which surgeons switched their heads and kept them alive for up to a week According to Dr. Robert White, professor of neurosurgery at Case Western Reserve University in Ohio, the strange experiment is said to be, listen carefully, quote, heralding a new era of human transplant technology, end quote.
	Professor White reported that by keeping part of the brain that controls reflexes like breathing, heart function, and digestion, The scientists were able to keep the new heads and brains supplied with oxygenated blood.
	They think that there was little brain disturbance to the, in quotes, higher functions as a result of the operations.
	The monkeys were said to be able to maintain regular states of sleeping and waking and were also able to keep track of the laboratory staff visually and reacted as they normally would to noises in the room.
	Now, If you take story A about human cloning in 90 days, and remember, I was telling the audience earlier, remember after Dolly, they said, oh no, don't worry about human cloning.
	It's way off into the distant future.
	The distant future is now 90 days.
	Anyway, if you take that story and combine it with one that, I mean, if you can chop off a monkey's head and put it on another monkey, Then, as you well know, monkeys genetically are close enough to human beings that you could do the same thing with a human being.
	So when you put these two together, you have the prospect of a 60-year-old with a dying body, having his head put on the body of a 20-year-old clone, who otherwise has been headless And I asked a lady last hour who called, ma'am, if you had liver cancer, I just picked that out of my hat and you were dying.
	And they offered you a chance to have a new body.
	Would you go for it?
	She said, no, I'd rather die.
	God didn't mean for us to do that.
	But I said, but God is the one allowing us to discover the technology to do this.
	And she said, well, you know, that's right.
	So.
	I don't know.
	Interesting stuff, to say the least.
	A little frightening.
	And Dr. Hovind, who's a creation scientist.
	A creationist, I guess I ought to say.
	I'd kind of like to get his reaction to all of this stuff that's happening.
	And then we will launch into dinosaurs still alive today.
	We will launch into how we got here.
	Whether Earth has been here for billions of years.
	As is traditionally thought, or 6,000 years, as Dr. Hoven maintains.
	It's going to be a very, very interesting program.
	But I wanted to get all of that stuff in as a precursor.
	Good word lately, precursor.
	Oh, and by the way, I've got somebody to thank.
	I want to thank Rita out there for sending me the talking feather.
	Rita sent me a talking feather.
	Must have been an awful lot of work for her to do.
	And I won't go into it, but supposedly you can hold the feather up outside and receive communication.
	It's a beautiful item, Rita.
	Thank you.
	Now, in a moment, Dr. Kent Hovind.
	And he will be here for as long as it is interesting.
	And very interesting is what I expected to be.
	Absolute pain.
	Alright, after last night's program, this one will give you a little whiplash, but I like doing that to my audience.
	As you know, this program doesn't get tied down to any topic.
	We go all over the place.
	There are no rules.
	Color of the rainbow, smell great, last a long time.
	Really, they beat the fire out of a rose any day.
	Of creation, His fact-filled informative seminars cause even the most devout evolutionists to sit up and take notice.
	As a 15-year veteran high school science teacher, oh, what a background, his love for science sparked his interest in creation versus evolution.
	He saw the tremendous need for exposing evolution as a dangerous religious worldview and for arming Christians with scientific evidence That there are no contradictions between true science and the Bible.
	In response to these needs, shortly after finishing his Ph.D.
	in education, he began the full-time ministry of creation science evangelism.
	Creation science evangelism?
	Hmm.
	For the past eight years, he has offered $10,000 to anybody with real scientific evidence of evolution.
	So, here's a quick 10 grand for somebody out there.
	Since its beginning in 1989, his ministry continues to grow as Dr. Bowman speaks over 700 times.
	700 times every year in public and private schools, churches, universities, debates on radio and TV and so forth.
	So, he lives in Pensacola, Florida with his first and only wife and their three children, ages 18, 19 and 20.
	Oh, those were a busy three years of creation for Dr. Hovind.
	Doctor, welcome to the program.
	Well, thank you, sir.
	It's good to be here.
	I understand you are having storms in Pensacola, Florida right now.
	Well, we do get a lot of rain, but we don't have to shovel it.
	We do like that part of it.
	That's true.
	I've had a lot of bad luck with that lately.
	I had a guest last night Um, Mr. Mars, who I'm going to have on the program again soon, because he was having storms down in Texas, and just as we were putting him on the air, his phone line blew up and we never did get him on the air.
	Oh, you'll enjoy him.
	Text Mars.
	I've been on his program.
	He's really good.
	No, no, this is a different Mars.
	No, not text Mars.
	No, it's not text Mars.
	Listen, what do you think?
	What is your take?
	First of all, you heard me read these two stories.
	You understand the implication of these two stories together with regard to cloning and the switching of heads?
	Yes, sir.
	So before we dig into what we're really here for, what do you think about that?
	Well, the cloning, I think, has probably been going on much longer than most people realize.
	Whether we can do it is a different question than whether we should do it.
	Right.
	You know, we can make an atomic bomb and blow everybody up.
	Now, should we do it is another question.
	I think that the cloning has really little or nothing to do with the creation evolution topic because... No, it doesn't.
	No.
	You see, the people are taking an incredibly complex DNA code that already exists.
	Right.
	And manipulating it.
	Right.
	I guess a very rough analogy would be if you could figure out a way to extract information from your hard drive other than the normal ways of doing it.
	Right.
	You know, that would be interesting and it would be neat, but the information was already there.
	Well, what is a practical application?
	The practical application would be as I described.
	Oh, right.
	Somebody, you know, creating their own second body to keep on living forever.
	Well, I've been asked it many times.
	I have thought about it a lot.
	I haven't come to a solid conclusion on that yet.
	and moving it over to the clone body which was uh... cloned and without a hit
	i have all the sounds like uh... frankenstein bill but i it's real and
	it's now and it's happening and i was wondering how somebody with your
	background would react to it
	well i i've been asked it many times i have i've thought about it a lot i
	haven't come to solid conclusion on that yet you know what
	well a lady called that you didn't hear because you didn't hear the first hour
	but a lady called and said there's no way
	I would say, no, let me die.
	If I had liver cancer, I'd rather die.
	Because God did not intend for this sort of thing.
	And I said, but God is allowing us to develop this technology.
	And that made her thoughtful.
	And she said, yeah, that's true.
	Well, he also allowed people to develop the technology to blow up Hiroshima.
	True.
	So I don't know that that's always a good argument.
	I'm reserving my judgment to see where it goes.
	A lot of times with scientific discoveries like this, there's a lot more smoke than fire.
	That's true.
	They claim they can do all sorts of things like, you know, ice on the moon.
	So what if there is ice on the moon?
	It doesn't prove a thing.
	Well, I guess that then they think they could.
	That's one of the basics of life.
	Ice means water, which means life.
	And so they would then, I guess, proceed to consider colonizing the moon in some way.
	Well, I suspect they're a little desperate for funding for NASA, and they're looking for an excuse to justify their existence and their budgets.
	I suspect that, too.
	That was definitely the purpose of the Mars rock thing.
	You don't believe the Mars rock stuff, I take it?
	Well, no, it was proven shortly after it happened.
	See, that rock had been found seven years earlier.
	Oh, yes.
	It sat in a laboratory for a long time.
	The Congress had stalled on, you know, granting the money for NASA.
	And the money was stuck in Congress, and so they needed to find something.
	There was never any doubt that it was just an ordinary rock.
	There's not even any proof it came from Mars.
	If you do the mathematics on it, you'll find that the distance between Earth and Mars is incredibly great, of course, but the closest they ever get would be the same as having... If you shrink the Earth and Mars down to the size of tomatoes, and Earth would be a four-inch tomato, and Mars would be a two-inch tomato, and you put them about a half a mile away from each other, That's the closest they ever get.
	Right.
	What's the probability of something hitting Mars hard enough to knock a piece over to Earth and not leave a dent on Mars?
	Well, there are astronomers who claim that they see impact points on Mars that would have been big enough to eject material from the surface of Mars out.
	And I don't, you know, I'm not a scientist, so I can't really substantiate that right now, but they claim that, that they see craters there that are big enough that would have ejected stuff out from the planet.
	So, you know, I suppose it's possible.
	Really, NASA seems to have a vendetta, like it is, one of its major purposes for existence is to try to prove or find evidence for the evolution theory.
	They're looking for life everywhere else.
	And here they've got, you know, radar or satellites, telescopes set up to listen for extraterrestrial life.
	And we've got intelligent, obvious signs of intelligent design right here on Earth, and they can't see that.
	Even the Vatican forced their way on to Mount Graham through a lot of political and environmental obstacles to get a big observatory up on Mount Graham to be looking for life.
	Yes.
	Evolution.
	If they found, if they heard an intelligent signal from outer space, they would right away say, wow, look, proof of
	intelligence out there.
	And yet we see overwhelming evidence of design right here on this planet, and they don't see, hey, there's a designer.
	There's a God.
	Well, all right, if there came a signal, like in the movie Contact, for example, there came a signal from elsewhere,
	how would somebody like yourself handle that information?
	By the way, that's weird in itself.
	I mean, here you were a science teacher for years and years and years, but here you are preaching creation, not evolution, arguing against it.
	That's a pretty strange background to be coming from, to be preaching about creation.
	Well, in one of the surveys done here in the last few years, it was found that 36% Of the U.S.
	high school biology teachers believe the Earth is less than 10,000 years old and God made it.
	Really?
	So basically they believe the creation story as given in the Bible.
	36%?
	36%.
	Of the just average Joe Blow American citizens, the Mobile Press Register did quite a poll in 1995 and they found that 61% of the population believes that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old and God made it.
	Okay.
	So they made the creation account. Only 4% of the people were atheistic.
	30% were trying to blend the two together. You know, maybe God used evolution.
	That's me, by the way.
	We'll fix that by the end of the program.
	All right.
	I've always felt that the two were not necessarily mutually exclusive, that the process of evolution could have been by the hand of God.
	But you say you can fix that, huh?
	Oh, yeah.
	Not a problem.
	I've heard a couple of your programs and you seem like an honest, intelligent fellow.
	And so if that is true, then yes, we'll be able to fix it.
	All right, well then, this is going to be an extremely, extremely interesting program.
	Mull over, during the break here, mull over that question about if we suddenly got a signal and realized there were others, how you would react to that, and we'll tackle that one when we come back, and then we will launch into the full question of how old the Earth is.
	Whether we were created or whether we came from some sort of sludge that was struck by lightning and crawled out of the ocean and you know the rest of the story.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	To talk with Art Bell, from west of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico.
	That's 1-800-618-8255.
	Dial 1-800-618-8255.
	That's 1-800-618-8255.
	Now again, here's ours.
	Once again, here I am actually. Do not call yet.
	I repeat, do not call yet. We are doing an interview.
	We will, uh, fairly early on, get the phone lines open, and I will allow you to have a direct dialogue with Dr. Holton.
	Of course.
	So, look forward to that.
	It's coming up.
	Someone just sent me a fax.
	Rick in Redmond, Washington says, Art, if we could make clones... Now, check this out for the human spirit.
	Art, if we could make clones, could we then clone horrible criminals?
	Killers, rapists, that sort of thing.
	Then sentence them to many deaths.
	In other words, three deaths for murder.
	Two deaths for rape.
	I think Rick quite Doesn't quite understand the nature of what a clone would be.
	It would be like a twin.
	And that would be like sentencing somebody else, albeit with the same DNA, to pay for the karma, in fact, of somebody.
	It would be horrible.
	You don't understand, Rick, or I don't, one way or the other.
	All right, back now to Dr. Holman in Pensacola, Florida.
	Doctor, welcome back.
	Alright, suppose we did get that signal.
	Suppose that beyond any question we found there are others out there.
	My program deals in this kind of material all the time.
	How would somebody like yourself react to that news?
	Would it be disturbing to you?
	Would you take it in stride?
	One.
	Well, are you familiar with the book called The Cosmic Conspiracy by Stan Dale?
	Oh, Stan is a very good friend.
	Okay.
	My understanding of that, and it's been quite a while since I read it, but my understanding was that basically there are two kinds of UFOs.
	There are top-secret government craft, and there are satanically owned and operated.
	Satanically.
	In other words, there are no UFOs from elsewhere.
	They are either from our government or some government on Earth, or they are satanic.
	Well, that's...
	That's been my understanding that those seem to be the two reasonable options.
	Nobody's ever seen another planet around any other stars, let alone prove that there's any life on it.
	So if someone wants to argue that there's life on other planets, they're arguing from the negative.
	They're arguing from the lack of evidence.
	That's a poor position to be in, of course, in a court of law.
	Did you see the movie Contact?
	No.
	Too bad.
	I think it was Jodie Foster, who was an astronomer in the movie, and one of the classic lines in the movie was, as you look up at the night sky, and I have a beautiful one here in the desert, where it's very dry, and you see all those stars, millions and billions of stars.
	The line was, if there's not somebody else out there, it sure is a waste of space.
	Well, it might be like putting chroma on your car.
	You know, it doesn't do much.
	It just dresses it up.
	And God may have done all of that just to dress it up for us to look out and say, oh, wow.
	For us to see a pretty sky.
	Yeah.
	Well, the Bible says, you know, Eve is the mother of all living.
	So I guess scripturally, I would have a hard time getting around that verse.
	All of us came from Adam and Eve.
	And after the flood, the Bible says the whole earth was overspread from the descendants of Noah.
	So, I guess I'm not locked into a position, you know, 100% in concrete or anything, but I would have to say, so far, there is no proof that there's any other planets, let alone any other life on it.
	So, as I said, it's arguing from the negative.
	Alright, but still, my question stands.
	If there was concrete evidence of contact, how would you react?
	Would you react negatively?
	Would that shake your faith?
	Well, no, I would have to see some pretty good documentation.
	I would be in the skeptic category and tell there's some pretty good proof that it isn't indeed from here, i.e.
	demonic or satanic.
	Okay, but again, I come back to the question and I hope I can get an answer.
	Would it shake your faith if it were absolutely proven to be so or would you be able to accommodate that with your belief system?
	Well, I would have one or two other options to consider before I would have to I don't want to do anything drastic as far as my faith goes.
	The Bible says the people before the flood were living over 900 years.
	Adam presumably came from the hand of God, fully programmed, able to speak, you know, with a... All set to go.
	Set to go.
	No caveman stage, none of that bling.
	Which means if he was programmed to use 100% of his brain, which would seem to be reasonable since we have this incredible brain and people today use less than 10% of it...
	I had students when I taught that used much less than that.
	If Adam used 100% of his brain and came fully programmed from the hand of God and lived 900 years, how much did they know back then?
	But if he used 100% of his brain and he was so smart, what did he take the big bite of the apple for?
	Well, he knew full well that Eve had been tricked and he did that voluntarily to save Eve, his love for her.
	Just like Christ voluntarily became sin on the cross to save us.
	Right.
	I mean, he knew full well what he was doing.
	According to 1 Timothy, Eve was deceived, Adam was not.
	He deliberately took the fruit to save his wife.
	So, uh, if they lived 900 years and came pre-programmed and were incredibly intelligent, I mean, hundreds and hundreds of times more intelligent than the smartest man alive today.
	Yes.
	Plus, they could, they could, they lived so long, they could pass on this information to their great-great-great-great-great-great-grandchildren.
	They were still alive.
	Raph out the dates given in Scripture.
	You know, Adam knew Noah's daddy for 56 years.
	A long time later.
	So I have often wondered how far they got as far as technology.
	They wouldn't need to waste a lot of time like we do today just making a living because they had a perfect environment.
	You know, you don't have to spend so many hours a day working to make money to pay the rent or pay the utilities.
	They didn't need any utilities.
	Oh, a lot of things.
	If we lived to be 900, a lot of things would be very different.
	I think we would treat our environment very differently.
	You know, a lot of things.
	So I guess my other response to your question is, I don't know how far they got or how much they were able to pass on to Noah and his three sons who lived through the flood.
	And is it possible that after the flood, these people who still live to be 400 years, according to the dates given in scripture, We're capable of some incredible feats.
	The building of the pyramids, the huge things you can only see from space in South America and Mexico.
	I was just in Mexico yesterday.
	You know, the sketches of people that are, you know, three miles long.
	The Easter Island statues.
	Instead of looking for intelligent life on other planets as the source for these strange phenomena that we do definitely see, these giant stones that are moved into position, Could it be that it was super-intelligent life right here?
	The descendants of Noah?
	Sure could be.
	Sure could be.
	I was privileged.
	I was in Egypt here recently, and I got to lay in the sarcophagus in the Great Pyramid, and there is no question about it.
	There is no way they could have moved those stones.
	No way.
	Either they knew something that we don't know, or they were able to harness some kind of power we know nothing about.
	See, today, we don't use the magnetic field of the Earth for anything except tell our compass which way is north.
	Is it possible the magnetic field can be harnessed?
	I mean, 200 years ago, if you just said you can produce electricity by spinning a magnet inside of a copper wire, people would say you're nuts.
	That's right.
	You know, here we have this incredible power, electricity, which is very recently discovered, and now governs just about everything we do.
	So is it possible there are other powers we still have not discovered?
	I think part of the problem is we go on the assumption that modern man is smart and ancient man is dumb.
	Right.
	Which goes back to the evolution argument.
	I think if we could abandon that and say, wow, these folks were made in the image of God, they were incredibly smart, they probably knew all sorts of things we don't know, and modern man today is the one that's slowly climbing up from the plunge that he took when he abandoned God.
	When you were teaching science in high school, What did you teach?
	I taught biology, earth science, and physical science.
	And within the context of that, what did you teach with regard to evolution and creation?
	I teach that evolution is one of the theories of how we got here, and it is impossible for the following reasons.
	You know, you teach what the textbook says, and say, here's what this says, and here's why this cannot be true.
	See, the textbook is not infallible.
	There's much good science in the textbooks.
	And I love science.
	I've got a giant collection of public school science textbooks right in front of me here.
	Hundreds of them.
	And I do enormous amounts of research on this topic.
	You know, things in the textbooks that should not be there.
	There's definitely a... I don't know how to phrase it.
	Maybe a political agenda behind some of these folks who want to push the evolution theory.
	And they're using all sorts of things to promote their theory as evidence for evolution.
	Things that have been proven wrong many, many years ago.
	Every biology textbook in my collection, and let me take a quick look here, I have probably four feet of shelf space of just biology high school textbooks.
	Everyone that I'm aware of mentions that the human embryo, as it develops inside the mother, has gill pouches representing the fish stage of evolution.
	That whole idea was made up by a guy named Ernst Haeckel in 1869.
	He hated God.
	He wanted everybody in Germany to believe the evolution theory.
	And Darwin had predicted they would find lots of evidence for his theory when his book came out in 1859.
	So ten years later, no evidence had been found.
	Cern's take-home made some.
	He took the drawings of a human and the drawings of a dog embryo at four weeks development and altered them to make them look alike, made huge charts, traveled all over Germany preaching, you know, the embryology idea, which came to be known by the fancy phrase, ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny.
	In other words, as the baby develops in the mother, it goes through the stages of evolution.
	Where it has gills, slits, and a tail, and slowly comes from a fish to an amphibian.
	Well, Haeckel was taken before a tribunal sort of thing at the University of Jena, and admitted to fraud.
	It was proven that he lied in 1874.
	And yet, his drawings are still in textbooks today.
	The whole concept of what Ernst Haeckel made up is a lie, but every biology textbook in America today that I'm aware of still teaches that.
	All right, you contend our Earth is only, what, 6,000 years old?
	Correct.
	Let's examine how that can scientifically stand up.
	Carbon dating.
	Okay.
	Lots of people, lots of scientists, lots of archaeologists prove what they have found resort to carbon dating.
	Right.
	What is wrong with carbon dating?
	It must be inaccurate or wrong if the Earth is only 6,000 years old, because they keep dating this stuff at hundreds of thousands of years.
	Right.
	Carbon dating would only get you back about 30,000 years.
	The limitations are pretty great.
	There's about seven different radioactive elements.
	Potassium decays to argon, rubidium to strontium, lead 208, lead 206.
	We can talk about any of them.
	Uranium 235.
	All of them, any decay method of dating is based on some very fundamental assumptions.
	A simple analogy that helps folks understand, if you had walked into a room and found a candle burning on the table, and I said, hey Art, how long has the candle been burning?
	Right.
	And you said, well, I don't know Kent, it was burning when I walked in.
	Okay, let's measure the candle.
	Suppose the candle is seven inches high.
	Okay.
	We measure it extremely precisely.
	I mean, we get out the micrometers and we get it.
	All the scientists agree, this candle is seven inches high.
	There's no argument on the height of the candle.
	That's called empirical, testable, demonstrable science.
	Right.
	How long has it been burning?
	Well, science could, I suppose, prove that by the repetitive burning of a 7-inch candle.
	Well, that would tell you how long that candle will burn down, you know, when it'll burn out.
	But I want to know when it was lit.
	Well, you could determine that almost forensically once you had determined the burn time for a 7-inch candle.
	Okay, look at the burn time.
	Suppose we watch it and find out it burns an inch an hour.
	Right, there you go.
	Okay, when we walked in, we determined two scientific things.
	It is 7 inches tall, it is burning 1 inch every hour.
	Right.
	How long ago was it lit?
	Well, if it was 5 inches, 2 hours ago.
	See, we don't know.
	See, that's where you have to leave empirical science and go to assumptions.
	We would have to assume an initial height for the candle, which we could not prove, we'd just have to assume that.
	We'd say, well, it's okay, maybe it was 12 inches tall.
	Oh, I'm sorry, I thought that was a starting assumption.
	No, we don't know what the starting height was.
	It was burning when we walked in the room.
	Okay.
	It is now 7 inches tall.
	How about the amount of melted wax?
	That may be a possibility.
	I'm reaching out here, but... Well, they're dripless candles, you know, they don't produce any wax.
	The point is, with carbon dating, you're measuring the decay of an element.
	Carbon-14 slowly decays, nobody questions that.
	Yes, sir.
	The half-life is a little less than 6,000 years.
	Yes, sir.
	But, you're able to accurately measure how much carbon-14 is in the object today, and we can measure the decay rate today, and after that we're basing this on assumptions.
	The real problem with carbon dating, or with any dating method actually, is all of them are calibrated against the geologic column.
	Where if you find a dinosaur bone, it is automatically assumed to be 70 million years old, roughly, or 100 million years old.
	And therefore, if they uranium date it, or potassium argon date it, or whatever, if they don't get the answer that matches the geologic date, it becomes what's called an extraneous date, one that, well, they say, well, we know this isn't true, let's try it again.
	Out of 21,000 dates obtained by carbon dating, 19,000 were rejected as extraneous.
	In other words, if it doesn't fit their paradigm, they in effect simply reject it by putting it up on the shelf.
	Oh, correct.
	Several years ago, penguins from Antarctica were carbon dated.
	They took bone samples out of living penguins.
	Right.
	And they were 8,000 years old by carbon dating.
	No kidding.
	Well, it's not useless.
	Willard Libby invented it in the early 50s, 1947 to 1953.
	I think in 53 he got a Nobel Prize for it.
	He knew some of the shortcomings of it, and people today certainly ought to know.
	The magnetic field of the Earth is getting weaker and weaker.
	We're slowly losing our magnetic strength.
	As the field gets weaker, more radiation from the Sun gets in.
	And it's that same radiation that causes the formation of Carbon-14.
	That's what makes it.
	So if you're going to assume that the amount of Carbon-14 in the atmosphere today, which goes into the plants and ultimately into the animals, is the same as it was in the past, you've got a faulty assumption.
	Because carbon-14 in the atmosphere is still increasing.
	Largely due to the decline of the magnetic field.
	Willard Libby totally ignored that.
	And said, well, we know that the Earth's carbon-14 in the atmosphere would reach equilibrium in less than 30,000 years.
	And it's still not at equilibrium.
	And he said, and we know the Earth is more than 30,000 years old.
	Therefore, this can be ignored.
	Well, now hold on.
	I think he's wrong.
	The Earth is not more than 30,000 years old.
	Carbon dating actually proves the Earth is less than 30,000 years old.
	Does it prove the range of about 6,000 years?
	No.
	It doesn't?
	The only way you're going to get 6,000 is by adding up the dates given in scripture and by looking at reliable historic human records.
	So there's no scientific method of...
	Approving what you believe, that the Earth is 6,000 years old.
	Well, I think there are indicators.
	If I told you that the radio station that you work from is 4,000 years old, it would be fairly easy for you to prove I'm wrong.
	You could, you know, look and say, hey, there's wiring built into the walls.
	Electric wiring wasn't made until 100 years ago.
	So you have effectively limited it down to the last 100 years.
	No, I probably couldn't tell you exactly when it was built, but I could walk around in most any building and give you a ballpark figure that would be fairly close, based upon, you know, limiting factors, we call them.
	I could say, oh, this building has a certain synthetic fiber which wasn't invented until World War II, therefore it was built after World War II, etc.
	By looking at various scientific things, we can limit the age of the Earth down to, you know, certainly less than the billions that they claim.
	You're not going to get 6,000.
	Uh, unless you just simply take the Bible at face value.
	And you do.
	Oh, yes, sir.
	Yeah, there's no reason not to.
	Nobody's ever proven anything wrong about the Bible.
	Someone said the Bible is the anvil that has worn out many hammers.
	Yes.
	A lot of people have founded on that thing.
	Nobody's proven anything wrong yet.
	I see no reason to reject it and lots of reasons to accept it.
	But ultimately, it does come back to my faith.
	As a scientist, I look at this and say, wow, you know, let's examine the evidence.
	When you don't see anything wrong, you say, this must be the reasonable theory.
	So there is nothing in science right now that shakes your faith?
	Oh, no.
	I'd love science.
	I read science books all the time.
	I'd love it.
	But it's absolutely nothing.
	See, science is unrelated to evolution.
	That's where the problem comes in.
	Evolution is mixed in with science.
	That's no question.
	I point out that beer is often sold at football games.
	And beer has nothing to do with football.
	Well, I'm not sure that the beer bone is not connected to the football bone.
	Oh, okay.
	It may be.
	But see, beer does not become athletic by association.
	No, that's right.
	It does not.
	Evolution does not become scientific by association.
	It's true it's thoroughly mixed in our curriculum, and that's the fault of the educators in the last hundred years who have allowed this to happen.
	But that still doesn't make it science.
	They might want it to be, and they might loudly proclaim that it is, but all their You know, telling the lie long enough and loud enough and often enough, like Hitler said, you know, might make the people believe it, but it doesn't make it true.
	What should be presented to our high school students?
	Creation as a theory?
	Evolution as a theory?
	Creation as the way it really happened?
	Evolution, I mean, and how should it be presented?
	What sort of, if you were in a position to lay down the curriculum yourself, how would it be laid out?
	Well, I guess I would examine a much bigger question first.
	Should we even have public schools?
	If you start there, the problem is solved.
	According to the 10th Amendment to our Constitution, they shouldn't even exist.
	Every state should run their own schools.
	Having said that, though, they are there.
	Okay, they are there.
	So, I think students should be taught the truth.
	And probably the issue of creation and evolution is so emotionally charged Uh, from both sides.
	Yes.
	But it is impossible to address the subject without offending somebody.
	So, you would then not teach it at all?
	Right.
	I would say, hey, let's present the facts.
	We're going to learn biology.
	Here's the muscles.
	Here's the bones.
	Here's the blood vessels.
	Learn these names.
	So when young Johnny said, uh, uh, Dr. Holman, please, I need to, I want to know where did I come from?
	You would have to say... We can't discuss that.
	We can't talk about that here in school.
	Right.
	Ask your mom.
	Yeah, which schools do on all sorts of other topics, and they should with this one really.
	If we're going to have public schools, which I think is a very big if, and I would strongly recommend we not have them at all, but if we're going to have them, then certainly there are certain topics that they simply should not be allowed to be If they promote evolution, they are promoting a religion.
	If they promote creation, they're promoting a religion.
	So evolution, in your view, then, is a religion itself?
	No question.
	There's no scientific evidence for it whatsoever.
	All right.
	Stay right where you are.
	We'll do a bit more when we come back, and then we will open the lines.
	I'm sure there are many who would like to speak to you.
	Dr. Ken Hovind is my guest.
	He is a creationist.
	And this is Coast to Coast AM.
	Coast to Coast AM.
	That's area code 702-727-1222.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
	Now again, here's Art.
	code 702 727 1222. This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nine.
	Now again, here's Art. Here again I seem to be. Dr. Kent Holman is my guest and
	this is going to be a very very interesting program.
	If you're just joining us, I'll try and catch you up, if I can.
	Dr. Ken Hobart is considered by many to be one of the leading authorities on science and the Bible.
	Dedicated to the proclamation of factual scientific evidence supporting the biblical theory of... record, excuse me, of creation, his fact-filled informative seminars cause even the most devout evolutionists to sit up and take notice.
	Here we have a 15-year high school teacher, science teacher as a matter of fact.
	His love for science sparked his interest in creation and evolution.
	He saw the tremendous need for exposing evolution as a dangerous religious worldview and for arming Christians with scientific evidence that there are no contradictions between true science and the Bible.
	In response to these needs, shortly after finishing his PhD in education, he began the full-time ministry of creation science evangelism.
	For the past eight years, he's offered $10,000 to anyone out there with real scientific evidence for evolution.
	So, this will be your night to pick up an easy 10 grand.
	Uh, The Good Doctor suggests our world is about 6,000 years old, or at least, uh, if not, certainly not hundreds of thousands or millions or billions of years old, but very new.
	And we will get into phone calls shortly.
	I've got a few more questions, and then I'm going to allow you to ask him questions, and I know you have many.
	Referring to UFOs, uh, and the craft that flit about our planet, The Good Doctor believes they are either A government UFOs?
	Government secret black project airplanes or craft?
	Or things of the devil?
	So then, what is Area 51 The Alien Interview?
	Well, it's a 65 minute documentary that appears to show A government agent interviewing a space alien, or you may read devil if you will, inside the infamous secret base at Area 51.
	It was taken out of Area 51, spirited out by a man known as Victor who is now in deep hiding.
	And apparently is going to remain there.
	I'm trying to get another interview with him in that place where he hides.
	A Strange Universe and Extra showed a few seconds of it.
	Here we've got the full 65-minute documentary.
	It's $19.95 plus shipping and handling.
	And to get it, it'll take two weeks after you order it.
	Therefore, you should be on the phone now calling 1-800-510-3420.
	1-800-510-3420 That's 1-800-510-3420
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	Again, quickly reviewing for those of you who just joined the show.
	Uh, the major news, of course, is of the death of Sonny Bono.
	Tragic death.
	Hitting a tree while skiing, like Kennedy.
	Two skiing accidents, uh, within a week.
	Seems very unlikely, doesn't it?
	Somebody early on in the show faxed that we should be putting, um, helmets... Oh, actually, no, the news... The national news is talking about helmets being required for skiers.
	And then I thought, well, why not airbags on a skier?
	And then somebody else said, no, why don't you put airbags on trees?
	Somebody else said, uh, no, this is the latest, if the environmentalists simply allowed the loggers to do their jobs, Kennedy and Bono would be alive today because the trees they hit would have been logged.
	Also, it would have made skiing through the trees easier, less trees to hit.
	I never quite thought of it that way.
	I have a story here from UPI indicating human cloning will be accomplished within 90 days in the Chicago area.
	I have a second story indicating scientists, uh, specifically, uh, Professor Robert White, a neurosurgeon at Case Western Reserve University in Ohio, has actually moved one monkey head to another monkey, and the monkeys lived.
	And demonstrated that they were alert and watching the staff and all the rest of that pretty chilly stuff, huh?
	So if you combine the cloning of a human being with the ability to move ahead from one body to another, you've got a pretty ominous possible near-term future, I would say.
	We talked a little bit about that, but Dr. Hovind is here and he is here to talk about creation versus evolution.
	And he makes very strong arguments, and we're going to explore some more of those.
	I just got a fax here.
	Dr. Hovind says, Dear Art, I think Dr. Hovind has a very daunting task ahead of him.
	For what creationists say to be true, one would have to discard all geology, astronomy, physics, and biology.
	If all fossil layers were deposited during the flood, Why then don't we dig up more familiar animals, goats, cats, horses, alongside the dinosaurs?
	Even if one were to accept a premise that dinosaurs were heavier and sank, the fact is that most dinosaurs were smaller than the average large dog.
	How did the animals survive on the Ark?
	That is accepting the premise that Noah could have loaded 460 or so organisms per second onto the ark to meet the 24-hour deadline described in the Bible.
	The questions from a creationist that must be the most challenging is the speed of light.
	Which physics indicates stars and the universe are billions of years old.
	Now, that does lead us to a rather intriguing question, and that is, we are receiving light, Doctor, from stars that are as many as 15 or more billion years out in light years.
	How could that be if Earth is 6,000 or even 100,000 years old?
	Well, which of those do you want to tackle first?
	I don't care, you pick it.
	This is a typical ploy of an evolutionist who's getting desperate.
	They will say something like, you have to discard all of biology, you know, as if all of those, just by calling those names of those sciences, that that somehow is evidence for evolution, which it certainly is not.
	I like all of those sciences.
	I collect information on all of that and taught it and loved it and still study on it.
	And there's definitely nothing in any of those sciences to go against the creation.
	There's no philosophy.
	There's no hard science in those branches.
	Well, let us pick astronomy since we gave back the starlight.
	Yeah, starlight.
	Okay, if somebody tells you a star is 15 billion light years away, I would like to know how they figured that number.
	Who held the other end of that ruler?
	How did you measure that?
	I taught trigonometry.
	From trigonometry, you can measure a triangle if you know two sides and one angle, or two angles and one side.
	You can get a little further by using what's called the parallax method, where you, once you know one point, you compare it to another point as we move around the Sun.
	But Earth's orbit around the Sun is 16 light minutes across.
	If we convert this all to inches to make it easier, let's say Earth's orbit is 16 inches across, and we can look at a star in January, we can look at the star in June, we have two observation points.
	We can now make a triangle, talk to the star.
	The problem is, There's over half a million, 526,000 minutes in one year.
	If I told you to draw a triangle that is point A and B are 16 inches apart.
	Right.
	Point C is 526,000 inches away.
	You now have a very skinny triangle.
	You sure do.
	That would be like having points A and B one foot apart and point C 6.2 miles away.
	You get two surveyors to set up their transits one foot apart, focus in on a dot six miles away, and tell me the angle or the distance.
	So what you're saying is it is impossible for them to measure?
	That's absolutely correct.
	Nearly all astronomy books will say that using parallax trigonometry, the only real hard science to measure these distances, will give you a maximum of a hundred light years.
	I think even 100 light years is stretching it as far as being able to prove anything accurately
	because you're dealing with such minute measurements.
	You're dealing with 15 decimal places as far as measuring your angle.
	That just can't be done.
	I'm not saying the stars aren't that far away.
	They might be.
	But I think modern scientists have this tendency to want to make everybody think, hey, we're smart, we know everything.
	And that's simply not true.
	This is an awfully big universe.
	So you're not completely discounting?
	Oh, no, no.
	They could be that far away.
	But if they are, God put them that far away so we could look up into the night sky and observe all this endless depth of beauty.
	Sure, and oh, wow, with the effect.
	There's three things I would point out as far as the question on starlight.
	Number one, we simply cannot measure those distances, no matter what anybody says.
	So they're making up those numbers.
	They're making up the numbers based on the luminosity.
	You know, well it looks pretty bright, therefore it must be pretty close.
	Or it doesn't look too bright, it must be pretty far away.
	Pretty shaky ground.
	You know, take that to any court of law and see how far you get.
	So they could be that far away.
	My point is we can't measure it.
	Secondly, there's absolutely no way to prove that the speed of light has always been consistent all through space or all through time.
	The whole idea behind a black hole is that light can be affected by gravity.
	Yes.
	And therefore cannot escape because the escape velocity of this dense material is beyond 186,000 miles a second.
	Right, you are.
	So if light's affected by gravity, then is the speed of light a constant?
	Could light be accelerated toward galaxies and decelerated away from galaxies?
	There's no way to prove the speed of light has been the same, you know, all through history.
	All we've ever measured it is here on Earth in our atmosphere.
	So we don't know that the speed of light is a constant necessarily.
	Well, I believe science does try and determine the distance by the amount of redshift.
	Okay.
	Nobody knows for sure what's causing the redshift.
	They think it might be the Doppler effect.
	If the planet or the star is moving away, you would get the same effect as if you're sitting at a train track and you hear a train coming in.
	The pitch in the train whistle changes as it passes you.
	That's for sure.
	That's called the Doppler effect of sound.
	The theory is that maybe the same thing affects light.
	That light is affected by a Doppler effect.
	It could be.
	Okay?
	I'm not arguing.
	But, if the star is moving toward us, we would get a blue shift.
	And certainly, some of the stars do exhibit a blue shift.
	Scientists look out there.
	Astronomers look out there and see some of the stars are giving a blue shift in the spectrum.
	And some of the stars give a red shift some of the time and a blue shift some of the time.
	Do you believe in the Big Bang?
	No.
	You don't?
	Well, the Big Bang is coming.
	It's going to end that way, but it didn't start that way.
	I see.
	Well, the theory, of course, is that there was a Big Bang from some central point.
	Nobody knows what happened one second before the Big Bang theory, but then everything exploded outward.
	So, therefore, if that was true and if we were the center of that, everything should have a shift of red to it, shouldn't it?
	Well, if we're the center of it, correct.
	I mean, what's the probability of that?
	Well... And why should we be the center of it?
	I would say, if creation is as you suggest so, and there is no other life out there, and stars are just pretty things for us to see without planets and life, then we would be the center of it, wouldn't we?
	Well, could be.
	And the Bible says in several references that God stretched out the heavens like a curtain.
	Uh, it could be that God created it from one point and flung them out into space, and they are indeed traveling, and we are experiencing a red shift.
	I'm just saying, you know, there's certainly options.
	The third point I would make is, if you ask somebody, you know, how old was Adam when God made him?
	Right.
	Well, he was zero.
	But how old did he look?
	Well, he looked full grown.
	The trees had fruit on them when he walked into the garden.
	Well, it takes five years for trees to produce fruit, normally.
	Right.
	So here you have the appearance of age, and God is not limited by things like the speed of light, so he could create the stars and the light just like he could make Adam full grown, ready to speak.
	I mean, it takes a while to learn to speak.
	I mean, Adam talked the first day.
	Okay, and then I suppose created the animals as well.
	Remember the Thatcher here who asked about why then don't we find goats, cats, horses, that sort of thing right alongside the dinosaurs?
	Well, I would argue that his premise is that we don't.
	Who gets to decide how old this fossil is if it's found?
	Dinosaur bones have been found all over, but I often ask people, we find limestone containing many zillions of fossils.
	I have a huge fossil collection here.
	Oh, yes.
	How do you tell the difference between 100-year-old Jurassic limestone and 600-year-old Cambrian limestone?
	I don't know.
	See, limestone is found in each of the so-called geologic eras, be it Cenozoic, Mesozoic, etc.
	The real problem is the whole geologic column, made up primarily by Charles Lyell,
	building on the work of Steno and Stratus Smith and some other guys, Cuvier.
	But Lyell's the culprit, really, in Scotland, that lawyer there.
	In 1830, he published his books, uh, Principles of Geology, Volume 1, 2, and 3.
	I've got them, let's see, yeah, right here in my hand.
	Okay.
	Um, those are the books that destroyed Darwin's faith in the Bible.
	Darwin read those as he sailed around on the Beagle, and those are the books that, that ruined him.
	Um, in that, I mean, he invented this geologic column.
	He said each of these layers of earth that we see are different age.
	You've got them all over out there in Nevada, you know.
	Oh yes.
	That's the premise and that's the false premise.
	Those layers are not different ages.
	Maybe by a few weeks different.
	But the Bible teaches that there was a worldwide flood of course which would have made thousands
	and thousands of feet of sedimentary rock layered.
	So they said well the Thames River and some other rivers in England produce a certain
	amount of sediment per year.
	Let's say you get two inches per year of sediment.
	Therefore, let's measure this canyon and it is, you know, 5,000 feet deep.
	Oh, this must have taken, you know, so many years to make.
	All based on some pretty faulty assumptions.
	The fact is the geologic column, and I taught earth science 15 years, the geologic column does not exist any place in the world except in the textbook.
	You cannot find this column in its entirety anyplace.
	Well, I know that there's been recent science, supposedly, that has done core sampling off the Florida coast there, near where you are, and they have talked about The KT event, seeing evidence of the KT event also long ago that supposedly killed off the dinosaurs in the sediment in the core sample.
	Are you familiar with that?
	Oh yes, that was done in the Atlantic Ocean about the Yucatan Peninsula, an asteroid striking the Earth 65 million years ago.
	There you go.
	Right, it's all a bunch of baloney.
	It's true the Earth has many layers, and it's true asteroids strike the Earth all the time.
	There's a big hole out in Arizona, the Beringer Crater.
	I've been in there, craters all over.
	The geologic column is how they really date these things.
	So, you know, I'd ask your evolutionist friend to fax you the note there, you know, how do you tell the difference between Jurassic limestone and Cambrian limestone?
	Okay.
	You will have to respond, if he's honest, by saying, well, we can tell which age it is by the fossils it contains.
	If it contains a dinosaur bone, it must be Jurassic and 100 million years old.
	If it contains a trilobite, it is therefore Cambrian, 600 million.
	Right, right.
	The layers are dated by the fossils they contain.
	Now, those fossils are arranged in order based upon the assumption that evolution is true.
	That was all done, really, 2,000 years ago with Aristotle and these guys with their great chain of being.
	Darwin kind of copied that and said, well, you know, let's arrange things in order and we go from, you know, man at the top down to simple life forms at the bottom.
	It's no different than what Aristotle and these guys said, you know, 2,500 years ago.
	So, really, they arranged things in order that they thought they would have evolved in They picked a time for how long it would take to change from a fish to an amphibian to a reptile to a mammal, etc.
	And then, if you find a bird fossil, for instance, in a certain layer of rock, the rock will be dated because of the fossil.
	Layers of rock are dated by the types of fossils they contain.
	And then they turn right around and date the fossils by which layer they're found in.
	Hmm.
	It's called circular reasoning.
	Circular reasoning.
	Again, it wouldn't hold up 10 seconds in a court of law with a freshman law student.
	And yet, that's how they date these things.
	And I've got all sorts of quotes from major brand name evolutionists who are admitting it.
	Hey, look, this is definitely based on circular reasoning.
	Okay, I understand.
	Here's another one for you.
	Hi Art, I beg to differ with your guest.
	He said there was no proof that there were any other planets around any other stars.
	I thought the Hubble telescope had just discovered several planets around other stars.
	What does your guest have to say about this?
	Okay, they discovered there was a wobble that was producing a light phenomena that was producing, as they looked at the star, it wasn't the Hubble either, it was a ground-based telescope, and it was a wobble that was producing this effect of Dark spot.
	That they would say could only be accounted for by the presence of a massive planet.
	Yeah, but then it was later discovered.
	No, sorry.
	That was a goof.
	It was not a planet.
	It was just a... Not a wobble in the star.
	It was a wobble in the telescope.
	Oh, really?
	Yeah, it was causing this... I think I missed that story.
	Where did that run?
	Oh, I don't remember.
	I've got mountains of stuff here.
	But there was a retraction on that about the planets being seen around another star.
	There may be planets around other stars.
	I'm not saying there aren't.
	I'm just saying, so far, it hasn't been proven.
	And if it was proven, that still, of course, doesn't prove there's any life on them.
	We've got planets an awful lot closer right here.
	No life.
	And no life.
	Then we know it.
	Right.
	Now, again, you discount the Mars rocks.
	Oh, yes.
	And that's... I think you'll find... I don't think you'll find anybody at NASA, even, who will... who will say that that rock was... Well, they did say that.
	They had a press conference.
	And as a matter of fact, they have defended, there have been a couple of universities that took big shots at them.
	And they stand by their original press conference disclosure that it is life.
	You better call them back because all the press releases and things I've seen are saying... Change their mind, huh?
	Well, the wiggly line they saw in this rock that they thought might be evidence of a bacteria, you know, reproducing or something.
	is also the same exact wiggly line you get from a chemical reaction.
	I forget which chemicals it is, but two chemicals react and it produces this phenomenon.
	And so, no, it was not evidence of life on Mars.
	Some people there at NASA may have originally thought that it was, but I think there was also definitely a political motive.
	We've got to get our money out of Congress somehow.
	Okay.
	When we come back, I want to talk a little bit about dinosaurs, and then I want to get the lines open.
	How would that be?
	That'd be great.
	All right.
	Dinosaurs, then, coming up.
	Dr. Holand contends they still exist now on Earth.
	I wonder if they're on a little island off Central or South America someplace in a Jurassic Park kind of setting, or whether they're all around us, or... Because I haven't seen a dinosaur.
	Alive.
	Now, I've seen the skeletons, and boy, those were big suckers.
	He doesn't think they were, though.
	We'll talk about all of that coming up.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	Thanks for watching. Please subscribe.
	Where we started from Nothing to, nothing to show
	We gotta get right back to where we started from We're gonna rock the world
	Hartbell is taking your calls on the wildcard line That's 702-727-1295.
	Area code 702-727-1295.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	This is Coast to Coast AM from the kingdom of Nye with Art Bell.
	Getting right back to where we started from, in the case of Dr. Hovind and other creationists,
	that would be the Garden of Eden, I suppose, wouldn't it?
	And maybe that is where we're going.
	I don't know.
	But the fact... Well, alright.
	I expect active debate with Dr. Hovind from you, and we are about to open the lines, and I will simply issue the following warning.
	You go ahead and come at him hard as you want on the issues, But if you come at him with an ad hominem attack, I will blast you out of here like a skier hitting a tree.
	So having said that, we are going to go to the phone shortly.
	I've got a couple of questions.
	One is about dinosaurs.
	Doctor, did dinosaurs... When I was a child, my mom would take me to museums, and I would see reconstructed dinosaurs.
	And they were really big.
	You contend they weren't that big.
	Is that true?
	Oh, no, no, no.
	They were that big.
	They were that big?
	Oh, yeah.
	They didn't live that long ago.
	That's what they're telling you.
	That's all.
	As a matter of fact, you contend there still are some on Earth alive today?
	Yes, sir.
	Where are they?
	Well, let me give you a two-minute creationist scenario so it'll make sense.
	Okay.
	The Bible says before the flood, people lived to be over 900 years of age.
	Right.
	It says in Genesis 1, 6, and 7, there was a canopy of water above the earth that protected the earth and made it like a big greenhouse, basically.
	A canopy of water?
	Right.
	Today's atmosphere has six layers.
	Troposphere, stratosphere, mesosphere, thermosphere, exosphere, and ionosphere.
	Right.
	Apparently there used to be a seventh.
	either an ice ring like some of the planets have, or a vapor barrier like some of the planets have.
	Venus and Uranus have a vapor barrier.
	Jupiter have a vapor canopy.
	But however it was up there, there was a layer of water up there,
	according to scripture.
	This made it reflect a greenhouse, increased air pressure,
	and allowed the people to live longer.
	Explaining why the increased air pressure would explain why the dinosaurs we find
	have all the indications of having very small lungs and certainly having small nostrils.
	And yet they were huge.
	An 80 foot Apatosaurus would have nostrils the same size as a horse.
	Couldn't get enough air?
	Couldn't breathe.
	Today he couldn't.
	But if you had richer oxygen in the air, and or higher air pressure, then he could breathe just fine.
	With smaller lungs.
	True.
	And since reptiles never stop growing, whereas mammals do, in the pre-flood world, reptiles would be enormous.
	They'd be 80, 100 feet long.
	You know, there's I think 150 foot is the record from the one found in Alberta.
	Right.
	Still excavating it.
	Gigantosaurus or something.
	Something like that, right.
	Anyway, so yes, dinosaurs were huge, but they were just big reptiles that lived before the flood with the people, you know, in the Garden of Eden and around the world.
	Then I believe Noah took them on the ark.
	They were in the Garden of Eden.
	Oh yeah, they're just big, Adam named all the animals, they're just big friendly lizards.
	All the animals were vegetarian, according to Genesis 1.29.
	What about Tyrannosaurus Rex?
	They say it was a meat eater.
	Well, Jurassic Park said that.
	That was made long after the Garden of Eden was gone.
	T-Rex has many indications, like the chlorophyll stains found in their tracks and the enamel in their teeth, and certainly the short arms.
	He couldn't even reach his head.
	He couldn't hold anything while he bit into it.
	In spite of all the Hollywood propaganda, an awful lot of scientists think T-Rex was always a scavenger or a vegetarian.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	But anyway, dinosaurs then, two of each kind, and I'll use that word carefully instead of the word species, two of each kind of all the animals were taken onto Noah's Ark.
	Probably babies, he'd be smart enough to figure that out.
	You know, just be sure to get a pink one and a blue one.
	And after the flood was over, the world was different because this canopy of water that used to protect them was now gone.
	It had rained 40 days and 40 nights and now the oceans were huge and... Do you contend that that canopy of water is what caused the flood?
	One of the causes.
	Okay.
	The Bible also says the fountains of the great deep were broken open, so subterranean water came out, probably along the cracks like the San Andreas Fault and the New Madrid Fault and the Mid-Atlantic Ridge.
	So you got it from both sides, above and below?
	Got it from both sides.
	Gotcha.
	So, after the flood, everybody gets off the ark, and they have really a devastated world, very different, and lifespans begin to drop off immediately.
	The people born after the flood only live to be 400, and then it drops off to 200, and then down to 100.
	Which is, you know, pretty much max today.
	Right.
	So, um, this was due to the climate changes and, uh, probably numerous factors.
	Increased radiation coming in with this canopy being gone.
	Uh, water's a great filter to filter out radiation and UV light.
	And so, anyway, dinosaurs began to be smaller and, uh, they began to die off because of the climate changes, primarily.
	The second thing that happened, I believe, was they were being killed off by man.
	Which is why we have so many, literally thousands of legends of people killing dragons.
	The word dinosaur was just made up in 1841.
	Right.
	So they didn't call them dinosaurs, they called them dragons.
	They're mentioned all through history from every major culture.
	And there are a few small ones still alive today.
	I'll give you just Loch Ness Monster for instance.
	11,000 people now claim they have seen it.
	They all claim it is a plesiosaurus, a swimming dinosaur.
	There have been about a thousand people who claim they've seen one very similar to that in Lake Champlain, Vermont, called the Lake Champlain Monster.
	There's one in Lake Okanagan, Canada, called the Ogopogo, which is north of Washington State in British Columbia.
	So Nessie is a dinosaur.
	Right.
	Probably 20, 25, 30 feet long.
	And that would be my contention, that there's just so much evidence that something exists in that lake.
	11,000 reported sightings.
	I mean, there must be something to this.
	I've never been there, never seen it.
	But I have personally interviewed probably 50 people who have seen these type of creatures in various places.
	A Japanese fishing boat caught one, a dead carcass of one, in their net in 1977.
	It made news everywhere except not much in America.
	Some of the American scientists who never saw the thing and never had it in their hands said, we think it was a basking shark.
	But the Japanese scientists who had it in their boat said, no, look, we know what a basking shark is.
	We're professional fishermen.
	This was a dinosaur, a plesiosaurus.
	What about Bigfoot?
	Same answer?
	Well, I don't know.
	Possibly.
	Yeah, I've done a lot of research on that.
	I haven't come to a conclusion yet.
	But with dinosaurs, I think it's pretty definitive.
	In 1925, a dead dinosaur, 40 feet long, washed up on a beach in California, in Monterey.
	There's a book, which I can get in my hand in a minute here, I've got it in my library somewhere, called Shipwrecks and Sea Monsters of California's Central Coast.
	And there are some excellent photographs of it.
	It happened in 1925, so there's only black and white photos.
	But you can see this creature with a 20-foot long neck.
	Why?
	Laying there on the beach.
	Boy, I sure would like to have one of those photographs.
	Well, I show all of those photographs and many, many more in my video series.
	Video tape number two is all about dinosaurs.
	Do you happen to have any still photographs, computer-friendly, for example, that one could post on a website?
	We have just gotten a website, and I have a computer genius who works for me, and I will mention that to him.
	So you don't have those photos up there yet?
	I don't have them up there yet, but I do have all of my... I use over 2,000 slides in my seminar as I speak, and I have it all in PowerPoint program.
	It includes all those pictures and documentation.
	All right, listen, listen.
	I've got a big website, millions of hits.
	I will have a link up in about five minutes if you give me the URL.
	In other words, what is the address of your website?
	My web is drdino.com.
	But none of those pictures are on there yet.
	But we have them all in PowerPoint program and I use them for my presentation.
	Oh, we need to get them up there.
	Yeah, I could make a CD for anybody which is thousands of pictures and several people who speak on creation use my material.
	None of it's copyrighted.
	I encourage them to do that.
	That's an idea.
	I'll tell Brian in the morning when he comes in to Absolutely.
	Put some of that on there.
	Absolutely.
	All right, then we'll look for that in the next 24 hours.
	In the meantime, we will get a link up here, and believe me, probably as we're speaking, it's going up.
	So folks, if you want to see his website, www.artbell.com.
	Just go on down to The Good Doctor's name, click on that, and you will go over to drdino.com, and you can take a look, and then in the next couple of days or so, we'll get the pictures of dinosaurs up there.
	I'm really looking forward to that.
	Alright, we're about to go to the phones, but I've got a couple of questions I've got to ask.
	One from Sioux Falls, South Dakota.
	A series of questions.
	Ask The Good Doctor the age of Mount Everest.
	Okay, well I think all of the mountains were formed during the last few months of the flood.
	The Bible says in Psalms 104, the mountains arose and the valleys sank down during the last part of the flood.
	The flood lasted 13 months altogether.
	Noah's flood did.
	So the crust of the earth is very thin compared to the size of the earth.
	The ocean crust averages about 3 miles thick.
	3 to 5 miles.
	Whereas the continental crust averages about 30 miles thick.
	Compared to an 8,000-mile Earth, that's nothing.
	Actually, the crust of the Earth, compared to the size of the Earth, is less than the skin of an apple, compared to the apple.
	Sure.
	We're talking real thin.
	So the Earth is covered with water, and there's enough water in the oceans right now to cover the Earth a mile and a half deep, if the Earth were smoothed out.
	I flew over the Pacific Ocean coming back from Australia a few months ago, speaking over there, and I told one of the men in my office, I said, man, the Pacific Ocean is huge!
	Oh, yes.
	He said, no, that's just the top of it.
	Pretty powerful thought, you know.
	It is.
	You've really answered the next question.
	Ask him when Everest was formed.
	I think it was formed after the flood.
	Right.
	When they climbed Mount Everest, 1953, Edmund Hillary, at the 26,000-foot level, 3,000 feet from the top, he began finding petrified seashells.
	You're ahead of me, because ask him how fossils can be found near the peaks of Everest.
	Yeah, the whole top of the mountain, actually.
	For 3,000 feet, it is sedimentary rock full of seashells.
	So, Mount Everest, How do you phrase this? Mount Everest...
	The water wasn't over Mount Everest at the height that it is today.
	Mount Everest lifted up during the last part of the flood.
	All the mountains lifted up.
	The crust of the earth wrinkled.
	Sections sank down.
	The earth was broken up into plates.
	Some plates would tilt up and one area comes up and makes a mountain range
	and the other side goes down and makes an ocean.
	Okay, so to cut to the chase, you would contend it acquired its fossils as it rose through the flood.
	Well, maybe the first, it acquired its fossils, dead animals at least, in the first few months while it was underwater, and then it arose.
	Just the act of rising, the pressure squeezes limestone pretty hard, and squeezes out a lot of the water, If it's acidic, which of course dead plants produce carbonic acid and makes the water acidic, then it would eat out the limestone quickly while it was soft and you would get caves and things like that.
	The majority, the vast majority of the cavern system like Carlsbad and things were probably formed in the first, you know, few years after the flood because the limestone was still soft and the water was still acidic being squeezed out of them by the mountains lifting and the valley sinking down.
	All right, one more question, then we go to the phones.
	It is from the same Mike in Sioux Falls.
	It's the $64 million question.
	Ask him who married Cain.
	Oh, the Bible says in Genesis chapter 5 that Adam had lived after he begat Seth, who was his third son.
	He had Cain, Abel, and then Seth.
	It says he lived after Seth 800 years and begat sons and daughters.
	You can have an awful lot of kids in 800 years.
	So in the first generation, they married sisters.
	There's no other choice.
	There were no laws against it.
	There was nobody to report them to.
	And, uh, there were no deformed chromosomes.
	The laws against, uh, marrying sisters were not given till Moses 2,500 years later.
	Even Abraham married his half-sister, according to scripture.
	Of course, the evolutionist has a much worse problem.
	They always bring that one out.
	Who did Cain marry?
	Right.
	But they don't stop and look in the mirror and say, man, what a problem they have.
	Because they have to get two cells to evolve out of the rocks.
	At the same time, in the same place, of the opposite sex.
	How about a major problem?
	Alright, let's turn to the phones, and here we go.
	You'll see what a diverse audience there is.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Dr. Hovind.
	Hi.
	How you doing?
	Okay, where are you?
	I'm in Akron, Ohio.
	This is Matthew.
	Matthew, hi.
	Hi.
	Well, actually, as far as inbreeding goes, you just tackled my first question.
	My second question is, he seems to say that the Bible is almost law.
	It's true.
	The Bible isn't God's word so much as it is God's ideas through man's words.
	Wouldn't that be inherently fallible?
	Who taught you that?
	Well, I mean, God didn't write the Bible.
	He wrote it through man, didn't he?
	Well, if I dictate a letter to my secretary and she types it out, it's my thoughts, it's my words.
	She just lets us typist.
	So you believe that man would be capable of Almost understanding God's ideas then?
	No, no.
	I think even some of the Bible says many of the prophets, after they had written what they had written, they said, God, what does this mean?
	They didn't even understand it themselves.
	Daniel, the last few chapters, you know, Daniel said, God, what does this mean?
	God said, don't worry about it, Daniel.
	It's not for you.
	All right.
	Have a good evening.
	All right.
	Thank you, sir, for the call.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Art Bell and Dr. Hovind.
	Hi.
	Yes, gentlemen.
	Good morning.
	How are you?
	You've got some hum on your phone.
	Where are you calling from, sir?
	I'm in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.
	All right.
	I'd like to address the issue of theistic evolution.
	Okay.
	Doctor.
	Sure.
	Yeah.
	My first encounter with an evolutionary theorist was my freshman days in college.
	He insisted that all higher vertebrates are reptiles and it occurred to me that I was a vertebrate.
	So I took issue with him and he insisted that this was true and went on to say that he was a Christian And I told him that he was the first born-again lizard I'd ever met, if that were true.
	But my question to you is, how do the theistic evolutionists account for the shedding of blood on the face of the earth before the fall of man?
	That's an excellent question.
	I think the theistic evolutionists, and let me define that position as I understand it, A person who says God used the evolution process to bring the world into being.
	Generally, there are several varieties of those, but they all kind of fit into that umbrella.
	I would say they're in a very precarious position.
	They're outside of the scripture.
	They can't claim to believe the Bible.
	There's no question there because that's not the scriptural position.
	I agree with you.
	And they're outside of science because they're trying to bring the supernatural into the scientific world.
	I agree again.
	Neither group wants those.
	Why is it not a reasonable explanation for two theories And you'll just have to accept that from me.
	Both of which are not entirely scientifically verifiable.
	Neither creation nor evolution are scientifically verifiable.
	That's what I said.
	So then why is it an unreasonable position to take in view of that?
	Well, I think it is certainly an unreasonable position that we have in our school system where all of the taxpayers are paying for one of those religions to be taught at the exclusion of the other.
	So my contention is evolution is a religion.
	Why do I have to pay for that religion to be taught in a school system?
	As far as trying to combine the two in Theistic Evolutionist, somebody told me, he was pretty mad in one of the seminars I did, he said, well, you don't leave much room for us folks who believe God used evolution, do you?
	Right.
	I said, well, man, you've got a retarded God.
	Doesn't he know how to make it right first time?
	Does he have to play around and practice?
	I mean, what kind of God is this anyway?
	My God made it right first time.
	And he wouldn't use this process of long, millions of years of misfits and suffering and death and, you know, doesn't know what he wants, can't make it right.
	You can worship that God if you'd like, but I wouldn't worship him.
	That's not the God that I would bow down and worship.
	So, it's certainly not the same God.
	Is it the same God that today allows slaughter and genocide and biological weapons and nuclear weapons and on and on and on?
	Well, we're getting off on another subject there.
	As far as God allowing that, I suppose, you know, that's a question we'll have to ask him.
	That doesn't mean he's causing it.
	I mean, if my neighbor comes over and shoots me, that's not God's fault.
	That's the neighbor's fault.
	He did that.
	And what Hitler did was Hitler's fault.
	You can't blame that on God.
	Well, okay, then you're saying God is kind of hands-off.
	Well, for now.
	There's going to be a judgment day, a day of reckoning.
	So it's coming.
	And that'll be hands-on time?
	Oh boy, that will be hands-on time.
	All right, again though, for those of us who wish to believe or embrace portions of both, we're cherry picking and we're out of our minds, but you see, I came at you and I said, look, both theories, evolution and creation, are not totally verifiable by any scientific method that we know of.
	You're tearing evolution apart tonight, and I think you have many good points, as does the other side, so I choose to sort of believe in the middle.
	That why not combine them and imagine that God allowed an evolutionary process to ensue as he allows free will now on Earth.
	Sure.
	As in your neighbor killing you.
	Right.
	And about 30% of the population of America takes that position according to the surveys.
	Interesting.
	About 60% say, no, God did it, and he didn't use any evolution.
	Now, I think probably one thing we should have done earlier is define the term evolution.
	Okay.
	I don't know if you got that little fact I sent you with the chart showing micro and macro evolution.
	I did, yes.
	Okay.
	Micro evolution is a fact of science.
	That happens.
	Nobody questions that that I know of.
	It's the fact that roses produce a variety of roses.
	You bet.
	You can watch it happen.
	You can make it happen.
	Right.
	It's also a fact that dogs produce a variety of dogs.
	There's probably 250 varieties of dogs right now.
	And it's probably a fact that they all had a common ancestor.
	And they may even have the same ancestor as the wolf and the coyote.
	But if you stand 30 feet away and look at them, it's still a dog.
	It's the same kind of animal.
	Okay, these are facts.
	Microevolution is really... I hate to use that term.
	I prefer to call it just variation.
	Microchange?
	Sure.
	That does not prove that the dog and the rose have a common ancestor.
	All right.
	On that note, doctor, we've got a break.
	We're a network.
	We live with these time constraints, but we'll be back.
	Grab a cup of something, and we'll be right back.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	I'm Art Bell.
	It's a beautiful day.
	That's 1-800-825-5033.
	Now, here again is Art Bell.
	Once again, here I am.
	Art Bell, from east of the Rockies, dial 1-800-825-5033.
	That's 1-800-825-5033.
	Now, here again is Art Bell.
	Once again, here I am.
	Well, you're listening to Robert O'Dean.
	Robert O'Dean was an intelligence analyst at NATO.
	I Robert O'Dean worked in a war room.
	Robert O'Dean worked for FEMA.
	And listen to what he's telling you.
	So what do you conclude?
	You've got to either conclude that he's crazy as a loon, or there's a real good chance he knows a lot of stuff we don't.
	And to me, The last one seems the greater possibility.
	We'll get back to him in a moment.
	Eyal, we'll start taking calls.
	I want to talk a little bit about abduction, then we'll take calls.
	The current issue of Newsweek Magazine lists as one of its pictures of the year what I'm going to tell you about now.
	If you appreciate the epic grandeur of landscapes like the ones captured by Ansel Adams, you've got to see what we've got, this picture of Hale-Bopp.
	The definitive Hellbot portrait was captured in March of 97 by Alaskan photographer Kerry Anderson.
	This comet is pictured in the night sky, blazing across a clear night sky, over snow-capped Alaskan mountains, inside the Northern Lights, the Aurora Borealis.
	It... is... something that'll take your breath away.
	It's 18 by 24 inch gallery reproduction on 80 pound stock, Individually numbered and then hand-signed by both Alan Hale and Thomas Bopp, who are under exclusive contract to Dr. Nick Begich of Earth Pulse Press.
	Now, you can get one.
	It's $100 plus $10 shipping.
	And it is a bargain.
	The number is 1-888-690-1277.
	1-888-690-1277. That's 1-888-690-1277. It's on my wall and I guarantee it will take your breath away.
	Smart.
	Alright, well, I'm keeping my eye on this story, as you know.
	Here's another one.
	Alright, when you mentioned the mystery flu in L.A., it put a shiver up my back.
	I'm from Somerville, New Jersey, and a couple of local hospitals have closed their doors here because they're full of people with a mystery flu.
	First hospital to turn away people was in Phillipsburg, New Jersey.
	I'll try and find the newspaper article and send you a copy regards George, and I won't give his last name.
	This story is buggin' me.
	Pun, I guess.
	Intended.
	This story is starting to bug me.
	And I'm not, you know, maybe it's just a heavy flu, you know, it's a bad flu season, I don't know.
	But there's something That's taking a left turn when it ought to be taking a right turn about this story.
	It's not being covered.
	I don't know.
	I just reserve judgment.
	I don't want to... As far as I know, it's the flu, you know, and people are recovering, but... There is some great story that is not being told here, I think.
	Once again, or I guess once again right now, Robert O'Dean is here, and Robert, I do want to begin asking you a little bit about these abductions.
	First of all, there's a large group of people out there who believe that this cabal we talked about, this group we talked about earlier, made some kind of deal with some of them to be able to take some of us for genetic tomfoolery or some very good cause, who knows, but that a deal was made.
	Is that what you believe?
	I've heard those rumors, Art, and I'm not sure I'm convinced of the reality of that.
	Uh, God, I hope not.
	Yeah, I hope not too.
	I hope that some of our people in government, whoever the hell they might be, are not stupid enough to have made a deal of that kind.
	Okay, let's say they didn't, just for the sake of the conversation.
	Then, that means that they're snapping up people for nefarious reasons, and we ought to damn well be shooting at them.
	Well...
	I'll tell you, my own view is that this genetic monitoring system or program, whatever you wish to call it, has been going on for a hell of a long time.
	We've only begun just recently to start paying attention to it.
	And I have a great admiration for both Bud Hopkins and John Mack, because those guys are right on top of what this story is all about.
	But it's a worldwide phenomenon.
	It's been going on for a very long time, and people are only now beginning to pay attention.
	Yes, it appears that some of these little grey dudes are going around picking people up and taking samples of one thing or another.
	Impregnating women?
	Well, yes, it seems to be happening.
	I don't know, Art.
	I'm not an expert and I don't even pretend to be.
	I tell you that there are things I don't know the answers to.
	But I do believe that abductions are happening, and I believe they've been going on for a long time.
	And the people are so disturbed that they need counseling.
	They need phone lines like the one you've got to call up to get counseling.
	So, if they're really doing that to us, Bob, then we ought to shoot at them.
	Well... I mean, what are they doing messing with Earth women?
	Yeah, well, they're doing the same things we do.
	We've been doing the same thing for a long time.
	Ah, alright.
	Again, with your background in theology, I've got two stories that are either encouraging or terribly discouraging.
	One, that we've got a scientist near Chicago, who I'm dying to interview, who's going to clone in 90 days, unless somebody stops him, a human being.
	We've got scientists who have successfully switched monkeys' heads and are keeping them alive, you know.
	You know what I'm saying, just switch it.
	Now, you take those technologies, the fact of their existence, or just about their existence, and they can do it, and yeah, we're doing some pretty strange things down here on Earth, there's no question about it.
	How do you feel about our meandering into these areas, these god-like areas?
	Well, Art, we meandered into this area about 15 to 20 years ago.
	It's nothing new.
	What's new is that the people are now just beginning to pay attention.
	Your government and mine, and it's infinite wisdom, and I say your government because I don't know who the hell we're
	actually speaking about.
	They've been involved in human cloning and genetic research for well over 20 years now.
	You know what?
	I don't doubt it.
	I don't doubt it.
	I've said for a long time this has been going on in labs, secret labs.
	You can just bet on it.
	It's like aircraft development.
	We don't know about a plane until it's already been flying for 15 to 20 years.
	It's the same thing with this human genome project.
	We've been testing and coming up with answers for a hell of a long time.
	And none of that information has been released.
	This thing with that sheep, would they call it Dolly or something?
	Yeah, Dolly.
	That's nothing new.
	That's old news.
	Well, I certainly believe with all of the logic inside of me, Bob, that Dolly and now even this human cloning project, these are in the private sector.
	Our government, with its 80 billion dollars of black project money, has been doing this kind of stuff for a long time, so I agree with that.
	Listen Art, there is a positive side to this genetic research.
	Right, well you mean with disease and so forth?
	Yeah, we can actually go in there and take the negative stuff out and put some positive stuff in.
	And just imagine what that's going to mean for the future of the human race.
	I do imagine, and I'm not comfortable with all of it, but maybe I'll grow to be.
	I don't know.
	I can imagine a big upside, and I can imagine a big downside, like with anything, like with atomic power.
	If they can come up with something that can literally eliminate most of our major diseases, I'm all for it.
	I would like to see something to eliminate sickle cell anemia, for example.
	Cancer.
	And cancer.
	Heart disease.
	And the evidence that I have seen indicates that we've already made some enormous strides in that area.
	But what we've got to do is get it out into the light of day and get it out into the hands of the people so that it isn't abused.
	That we don't end up cloning human beings and turning them into stupid soldiers to go out and kill each other.
	But isn't that what we'll do?
	I mean, do you see any signs that the wars have stopped?
	That our warlike nature Well, I see hopeful signs in Western Europe and in the United States.
	I see hopeful signs in the United Nations.
	I see hopeful signs even in the Middle East that there are rational and thoughtful people who are really beginning to pay some serious attention.
	With Iraq and Iran.
	I know.
	We have sold Iraq biological stuff that is probably going to be used against us.
	Now, Iraq's the enemy.
	We're spoiling for a fight again with Saddam.
	Yeah.
	And we're cozying up to Iran again.
	It's like an endless cycle, and I wish that I could be as optimistic as you.
	I'm not.
	I want to read you something, and this will just take a second, then you can react to it.
	Here it comes.
	It's from Ken in Oregon.
	Art, I really enjoyed your guest last night, as I do tonight, but I must take issue.
	First, when you asked the creationist last night if his faith would be shaken if UFOs were revealed to him as fact, though he was evasive, and you had to ask him twice, I don't recall him saying yes to his faith being shaken.
	Well, later in the program, I came back to that, uh, Ken, and he did finally give a bottom line yes He goes on, tonight's guest is even more skewed in some respects, in my opinion.
	I am very interested in his experiences.
	That is, until he begins twisting the different world religions into his UFO experiences.
	When Jesus said, I have other flocks, he could have been referring to the Gentiles, the American Indians, the Mayans, or life on other planets, but he did not state, quote, I have flocks on other planets.
	The theme of the Bible Is the love of God and man's redemption through Christ not proof that UFOs are visiting us now?
	Admittedly, some of those Old Testament things are absolutely described as UFOs, and I, of course, quoted Ezekiel to him, and he said he was stuck on that one.
	He goes on, although many of the world's religions have common themes.
	In other words, differing but similar worldwide flood stories.
	The need for love for each other and so forth.
	The paths are different.
	The Jews await the coming of the Messiah for the first time.
	Christians the second time.
	Hindus look forward to reincarnation.
	Buddhists seek nirvana.
	One would have to look very hard to find evidence of a common belief in UFOs in the different theologies.
	There you go.
	You want to tackle that one?
	That's a pretty...
	Big challenge.
	I have to reiterate something here.
	One, it must be understood clearly that much of what I share with you tonight is my own opinions after over 30 years of research.
	I'm not an expert, I'm not a world-class scholar, and I don't pretend to be.
	But I have done some homework, and I have done some deep research over the years, and I am convinced of the unity and oneness of the human species.
	And I would rather approach this and look at our similarities than our differences.
	And I do believe that in every major philosophical theology that there is a lot of common ground there.
	That we're not as distanced from the Jews or the Muslims or the Hindus or the Buddhists as we might think we are.
	Well, that's why you've got me to be Mr. Negative and cynical.
	I would say that the groups you just mentioned, in the name of their various gods, have been killing each other and continue to do so today at an amazing rate.
	Yes.
	I mean, that's just a fact.
	Yeah, that's a fact, yeah.
	All right, look, I want to go to the phones and let's see what the audience has to say.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Robert O'Dean.
	Where are you, please?
	A suburb of Chicago.
	All right.
	I'd like to talk to Mr. O'Dean about security clearances.
	Okay.
	It seems like I've listened to your show for a long time, Art, and a lot of the blockbuster big stories come out are from the military or from military bases.
	That's correct, yes.
	And, um, what I would like to ask Ms. Hrdyk, why, when, um, there's, would you agree that
	there's literally thousands of people that have top secret clearances?
	Ms. Hrdyk?
	Yes.
	Would you agree with that?
	Yeah, he said, yeah, true.
	Yeah, and so, you know, there's, um, the only way you can control this is something called a need to know.
	Exactly.
	Now, um, let's speculate for a moment that, uh, the UFO, uh, controversy, let's put this, let's say it's true and we put it on a scale of one to five.
	Um, how do you know that the need to know for the military isn't cut off at, say, four?
	Well, we know this, that the need to know for some of the military is cut off at whatever level.
	I've talked to generals and admirals who, frankly, have not seen half of some of the stuff that I have.
	There are people who are not involved with the compartmentalist aspect of security.
	Right.
	That, uh, they can have a top-secret clearance and not know anything about what we've been talking about.
	And apparently that's been happening with the Joint Chiefs, and Ed Mitchell encountered that in July.
	That is a reality, and your point is well made.
	The security problem in this country, which we've created in our wisdom over the years, is literally a nightmare.
	Here's another thing that we've got to tackle, but we tackled it a little bit on Monday night, Tuesday morning's program.
	And that is that we do have a big black budget.
	80 billion, maybe more.
	Who the hell knows?
	Billions going into these black projects.
	Now, we also have in this country, and you know it better than anybody, a legitimate need for national security.
	Right.
	We have a legitimate reason to have secret projects.
	Probably to be doing things in space, probably to be developing Star Wars type stuff, and I could go on and on and on.
	Legitimate!
	To protect our nation!
	Now, that is absolutely mixed in with the kind of open revelation that you're talking about with regard to the others.
	I mean, it's mixed in.
	And how do you separate it?
	How do you get together military guys who have taken oaths?
	You took an oath, right?
	Right.
	You're breaking that oath now, right?
	Indeed, yes.
	So, how do you separate real security needs so that we can tell the story that needs to be told without blowing national security?
	Answer that.
	Well, in my opinion, and that's all I can share with you, Art, is that if this matter, this entire issue, Would be placed back into the halls of Congress within our elected representatives who represent the people.
	That determination of what can be brought out and what should not be brought out could be made.
	At the moment, those decisions are being made by a select elite group of bureaucrats who are not elected, they're not responsible, they're not They don't in any way report to either the American people or to Congress, and I think that is the problem we're dealing with here.
	I believe that the Congressional system, the Constitutional system, if it's used properly, could make the determination that there are some things that we should not let out.
	But damn it, I guess I'm old-fashioned, but I believe that this government of this country is of and by and for the people.
	And I've lived long enough that I can see that there are people who have misused this system and the people just are not being considered anymore.
	All right.
	And our elected representatives don't even know what the hell... Okay, try this one out for size.
	We've been discussing the U.S.
	If they are real and they are here and they have been visiting for, well, maybe since we were created, then governments all over the world The Russian government, the Chinese government, the British government, the French government, even the African government, a lot of governments.
	I could think of the Canadian government.
	All of these governments would have to be, to some degree, aware of this as well.
	So now you're talking just not about the U.S., right, but about a good portion of the world.
	Well, the indications are is that this majestic group, whoever the hell they are or whatever they call themselves, is multinational.
	There's a strong indication that it's not just U.S.
	That there are representatives of some of the major world governments involved in this.
	Boy, that's some serious secret management.
	Boy, you tell me it is.
	What's been going on in England?
	They've got an official Secrets Act over there that is worse than our own.
	Oh, you're telling me they can shut, and do shut, media down over there and say, no, we will not broadcast that.
	Well, I would like to remind the American people, while I've got a little bit of their attention tonight, is that The agency, this famous central intelligence group, back in 1991 published a special report for Robert Gates.
	And they boasted about the fact that they had been able to persuade reporters to postpone, change, hold, or even scrap stories that could have adversely affected the national security interests or jeopardized sources and methods.
	But who makes those decisions?
	You know, I guess that is the 64 billion dollar question.
	Who's spending all that black money?
	Robert, hold on, we're at the bottom of the hour and when we get back we've got to really dive into the phones, alright?
	Alright.
	Alright, stay right there.
	Robert O'Dean.
	It's been a too long time with no peace of mind And I'm ready for the times to get better
	One thing seems sure The times are about to change.
	One way or the other.
	I'm Art Bell and this is Coast to Coast AM.
	I've got to tell you I've been wrapping my brain Hoping to find the way out
	I've had enough of this continual rain I've had enough of this continual rain
	I've had enough of this continual rain I've had enough of this continual rain
	To talk with Art Bell, from west of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico, dial 1-800-618-8255.
	That's 1-800-618-8255.
	Now again, here's Art.
	Once again, here I am.
	Good morning to you all.
	My guest is Robert O'Dean, and we're about to go right back to him and press a couple of questions.
	But the pain, okay?
	Here we go again, Robert O'Dean.
	Robert, I'm gonna press you a little bit now on a couple of items, alright?
	From Portland, Oregon.
	Dear Art, ask Robert to please expand on what he read in the NATO documents on UFOs called the Assessment.
	Well, how much time do we have left?
	This is radio.
	I have time.
	Give me the best version you can without, you know... Well, let me make it clear if I can, Art, that my reading and my involvement with the assessment was simply a beginning for me.
	Much of the information that I've collected over the last 30, 35 years did not come from the assessment.
	But let's talk about what did.
	What did come from the assessment was enough to shake the hell out of me and everybody who saw it and read it It affected a lot of our four-star generals and admirals because it concluded that we were not, merely not alone, but we haven't been for a long, long time.
	They concluded in the study that there seemed to be some kind of a program or process underway.
	They didn't know what it was, but they could see that something was developing.
	They also learned in 64 that there were roughly four different groups we knew of at that time that were extraterrestrial.
	And that they determined, which was the primary reason for the study in the first place, that there did not appear, and I say repeat, did not appear to be a military threat involved.
	Because if these guys had been malevolent or hostile, with their continually repeated demonstrations of their advanced technology, they would have cleaned our clock, as old Schwarzkopf likes to say, a long, long time ago.
	And that was essentially it.
	One, something big seems to be happening.
	It involves extraterrestrial intelligence.
	It's been going on for a very long time.
	And it did not, apparently, appear to be malevolent or a threat of some kind.
	That, in itself, is enough to shake the hell out of you.
	I know that American Air Force four-star General Robert Lee, who was General Lemnitzer's air deputy at the time, was terribly affected by this thing.
	Where and when did you see this?
	I saw this in 1964 when it was finally published.
	We used to talk about it.
	The rumors went flying back and forth.
	They knew it was going on and it was underway.
	They published it in the summer of 64.
	They only published 15 copies of this thing.
	Copy number one went to the Secretary General of NATO.
	Copy number two went to General Lyman Lemnitzer, who was my boss.
	and was known as Sackure, the supreme allied commander of Europe.
	Right.
	Copy three was placed in the vault in shock in the war room.
	That was a copy that I and a number of others who worked in there full time
	would pull out in the wee hours of the morning and read it and read it and go over it again and again.
	I asked you earlier what you would have testified to had you gone to
	back to Washington when the opportunity was there.
	Now here's somebody in Richmond, Virginia says, Art, please ask what more testimony
	he would have given to Congress that he has not yet spoken about over the air.
	You did, after all, allude to things that you haven't talked about on the air or anywhere else yet.
	So I'm going to tell you bluntly, and I may get my ass in a jam over this,
	but I am in possession of some classified material.
	And some classified documents that have never been downgraded or declassified.
	And I would have taken many of those things with me and I would have presented them to this congressional group and I would have shown them these things.
	And I probably would be in jail by now.
	But I do have material and it's not in my house here and I make that point very clear.
	Good idea.
	I don't keep it under my bed.
	But I do have access, and I'm not the only one, Art.
	I'm one of a number of these old boys who have a number of things that are very sensitive.
	Okay, you know I've got to ask, what does it say?
	I'm sorry?
	You know I've got to ask, what does it say?
	It says that we have not merely communicated with these guys, but we have some form of an ongoing relationship.
	And this is both from Central Intelligence Agency documentation, NSA documentation, and United States Air Force documentation.
	Phew!
	We have some kind of a relationship.
	Now that's the thing that really ticks me off, because who made this agreement?
	Who made this decision?
	Who decided to have this relationship?
	Only Congress can do that.
	And apparently, Congress doesn't know anything about it.
	That's why I keep pushing for open hearings.
	I don't know, Art, at this point, whether I'll ever succeed.
	I may be long dead before this is ever resolved.
	You know, Bob, there are a lot of things that we say Congress doesn't know about, but that select members of the Senate, for example, do know about.
	Yeah.
	Now, it's not generally known throughout Congress, but there are select senators that are informed about things that the rest of the Senate doesn't have the slightest idea about.
	Well, when you've got a problem, Art, that's so serious where the chair of the Senate Appropriations Committee sent one of his personal staff members off to Groom Lake in Site 51 to try to find out what the hell was going on and where some of this black budget money was going, this Representative of the Senate Appropriations Committee was taken on a grand tour and shown absolutely nothing.
	You know, you heard the term blowing smoke.
	Yes.
	Well, they blew smoke.
	And this guy comes back, he's got one of the highest access security clearances in the country.
	And he works for the, he works and he's presently working for the Chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee.
	That group does not know where the hell the money's coming from or where it's going.
	Now that's how bad it is.
	Well, I know where it's coming from.
	Well, we know where the money's coming from.
	It's coming out of your pocket and mine.
	We know that.
	We don't know where it's going.
	Every American taxpayer out there.
	But who is making the decisions to spend this?
	When the senator who is chair of that committee wants to know what the hell's going on, Why do you think you're not in jail?
	I'm sorry?
	I said, why do you think you're not in jail now?
	rosy treatment and came back learning nothing and i i i'm tempted to give you his name but i i think that
	he himself needs to speak out about this
	he's a brilliant man and he's a trusted member of the senate appropriations committee
	why do you think you're not in jail i'm sorry
	i said why do you think you're not in jail now I've given that a lot of thought and a number of others
	have as well.
	Bye.
	The only conclusion I can come to is that I seem to be or I think that I've been doing something that somebody wants me to do.
	I've got a big mouth, Art.
	I've been speaking out now for almost four years.
	Yeah, I know.
	Me too.
	Bob, the same question could be asked about me.
	In other words, hey, Art.
	How come the show is so big?
	How come it's so successful?
	How come... How are you getting away with it?
	That's right.
	People ask that all the time, and I... You know what?
	I come up with about the same answer.
	Well, maybe somebody wants me to be.
	Listen, I'm a realist.
	I've spent a lot of years in the Army, and I've been places I should never have been in all that stuff.
	I'm sure.
	They could shut me in a minute if they wanted to, aren't they?
	No question about it.
	I mean, I could have an accident.
	I could have a... Heart attack.
	A coronary... You know, these things can be arranged.
	I know.
	So I've concluded that apparently someone somewhere wants me to do what I'm doing.
	Now, there's a scientist in Connecticut that you probably have talked to and I think you probably have interviewed, and that's Michael Wolff.
	Wolff tells me that his connections tell him that they do know exactly what I'm doing and they are supporting what I'm trying to do.
	I'm not exactly surprised by that.
	I'm really not.
	And that's the only logical answer.
	Otherwise, we would be talking about Robert O'Dean, you know, who unfortunately had a heart attack, deceased.
	That's right.
	So that's exactly... The late Robert O'Dean.
	That's right.
	All right.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with the current Robert O'Dean.
	Hello?
	Yes.
	Alright, glad to be on the air.
	Yes sir.
	Now first of all, I'd like him to ask, I also was in the government, and I was wondering if he also believes that the government is just a contractor for the exclusive businessmen of the world.
	In other words, the richest men of the world use the government just as a contractor to get things done that they want.
	And does he believe that?
	Well, you've got a point.
	I won't tell you that I believe that, but my question is, who the hell are we talking about when we talk about the government?
	I used to think it was Congress, the President, the House of Representatives, the Senate.
	You know, I was taught years ago in school that we have three basic branches of government, the judicial, the legislative, and the executive.
	We seem to be talking about something else, and that's the problem that I'm angry about.
	When we talk about government, who in the hell are we talking about?
	Your point is well made.
	Who is making these decisions?
	Who's sitting at the top of this pyramid?
	That's the thing the Joint Chiefs, I think, are troubled about.
	That's what some of the major Senators, like the Chairman of the Appropriations Committee, is troubled about.
	We can't seem to get a handle on who these guys are.
	I know this, that it is indeed a multi-agency, multi-national thing, but your idea about the big businesses and the banks of the world controlling it, I... I hope you're wrong.
	Then, Robert, why wouldn't FEMA be an arm of that?
	Well, FEMA was created by the Senate and the House of Representatives.
	Actually, FEMA has its power as a result of an executive order that President Nixon gave a number of years ago.
	I know, but it would be an ideal agency.
	Well, yes it would.
	From the guys that I've known and worked with in FEMA, I don't seem to see that kind of black power.
	I don't seem to see that malevolence.
	The guys that I've known and gone to school with and trained with, We're basically good guys.
	I mean, they were patriotic Americans and they were basically honest and they were trying to do a decent job.
	Now, if there is indeed a black cabal out there of world banking business, damn it, we need to confront that.
	Maybe that's the area that we've got to open up and Bring into the light of day.
	Alright, Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Robert O'Dean, good morning.
	Hello from cyberspace.
	Cyberspace?
	Yes, that's where I am.
	It's an honor and a thrill to speak to two American heroes, and I do mean that.
	Quickly, on the FEMA issue, I think according to, I think it's Executive Order number 12919, with FEMA being able to take control of pretty much everything, just keep in mind that if the people that are currently in the offices were to step out, the infrastructure would be there for someone else to use.
	I do have two questions for your guest.
	The first is in reference, I hope you will elaborate more upon the incredible work of Sitchin as far as the Anunnaki and the return of the twelfth planet.
	My two questions are, A, could the visitors, who often appear as tall reptiles, sometimes with the greys, actually be the Anunnaki returning to the, basically, mankind that they may have created, as seen in all of the Old Testament, Numelish, Mayan, etc.?
	And secondly, if the second face at Cydonia, which has been identified, could actually represent the Anunnaki, with the first face representing the Cro-Magnon, a precursor of mankind?
	pretty heavy-duty questions but i think if you're your viewers will go to the
	internet and look at those two issues the second phase faced two at cydonia
	and the work of stitching or absolutely blow their minds uh... especially all of the entire earth chronicles from
	fiction which you know frankly been pulling my brain through a a pin
	and redefining everything and how i think you can look at that past history
	as it's recorded all right well sounds like you'll get agreement here
	well it's not only interesting to hear that caller because
	he's obviously somebody who's done his homework i spoke to zachariah about
	four weeks ago up in phoenix and uh...
	he flatly tells me that the anunnaki are back he believes that they have reactivated their their bases on
	mars as a matter of fact the russian pobos uh... mission
	actually photographed an active facility up there that came across in the
	infrared It's obviously generating a lot of heat and it's under the surface.
	Zechariah is convinced it is the Anunnaki again.
	You know, there was... And he's also convinced that the Anunnaki are probably the ones that look very much like us.
	Not the lizards.
	There was also, Bob, a photograph taken at the very last second before destruction of a Russian probe to Mars of a gigantic craft I mean, this thing snapped it just before there was either a collision or it was destroyed or whatever, a Russian probe.
	Yeah.
	That picture does exist out there.
	Well, there's a couple of photographs.
	I got a copy from Marina, the lady cosmonaut that's been outspoken about this.
	And the one thing they photographed was roughly 16 kilometers long.
	Yeah.
	The other photograph that the Phobos mission took was of a gigantic shadow on the surface of Mars.
	of a streamlined, enormous object that apparently was casting a tremendous shadow.
	And they photographed that on the surface.
	So this is part of some of the material that we've got in this video we've put together.
	And if I can tell you that one more time... You may indeed.
	You have videos.
	888-338-8581.
	And I'm told that if you guys order and get a hold of Joseph Bergeron over at Margana
	Nanogram, that Cecilia will send off a free reading list and a free congressional certificate
	What do they call it here?
	Initiative.
	We're trying to get people to sign up and be a part of this thing.
	I don't want anybody tonight to believe a damn thing I've said simply because I've said it.
	I simply want people to go out and do their own homework.
	I want them to inform themselves.
	I think that getting a hold of these reading lists and getting a hold of some of these videos might be a good place to start.
	Yeah, it might be.
	East of the Rockies.
	You've got to bite in somewhere.
	East of the Rockies.
	You're on the air with Robert O'Dean.
	Hello.
	Hi Art.
	Where are you?
	This is Dan from Fort Worth, Texas.
	Alright.
	I had a couple of questions for Robert if I would.
	Go.
	You were speaking about the Majestic 12 or whatever they're Well, apparently they do.
	Who is it that's paying the bills up to those yo-yos over at Site 51?
	Well, we know Wackenhut has a lot of power and authority that they sure didn't get through congressional decisions.
	to be, whether you call them men in black or you call them something else, there would
	have to be an active arm of containment for that group.
	That's logical, right?
	Well, we know Wackenhut has a lot of power and authority, but they sure didn't get through
	congressional decisions.
	Yeah, that's a fact.
	So who the men in black are, I don't really know.
	It's a generic name.
	Yeah, I know.
	Anyway, caller?
	The other question I had is what he thought about crop circles.
	Ah, good question.
	That, too, was brought up Monday night on the program.
	Crop circles, they really are a complete mystery.
	Doug Ruby has done a lot of good work.
	I interviewed Doug Ruby, a lot of other people.
	Any idea?
	Any guesses?
	Well, my own personal opinion is that crop circles are a definite form of communication by an advanced intelligence.
	Now, I've talked to a lot of guys who go out and make phony crop circles.
	Yep.
	That's been going on for a long time, but the real ones are kind of complicated and very intricate, and there's some aspects to them that no guys with a bunch of boards and string can really pull off.
	And so I've concluded many times, many years ago, that there is communication.
	They are a form of communication, and I think we need to pay attention.
	I think an advanced intelligence is trying to get our attention, get us to wake up and start asking some proper questions here.
	All right, Robert, hold it right there, and we'll do a final hour in a moment.
	In most markets, I want to read this.
	Hi Art, Dick here in Hawaii.
	Dick works for a major media outlet in Hawaii.
	Art, if you want interesting information on the flu, you should contact Ed Dames.
	He's currently staying with a person, a doctor, I won't give his name, on the big island of Hawaii.
	Last year I met with Ed Dames and Joni at Ed At, uh, this person's house in Hilo.
	He showed me top-secret briefing eyes only for President Clinton, prepared by officials at the Centers for Disease Control.
	They warned Clinton about a coming influenza pandemic.
	They were talking about requiring shots for everybody, predicting the possibility of a 10% mortality rate.
	All right, I saw it with my own eyes.
	Ed showed it to me, because we were at a party drinking wine, and I mentioned that I'm a health reporter.
	Ed, always something of a prankster, Said, you want a health story?
	I'll show you something.
	And he pulled the briefing out of his briefcase.
	He would not let me copy it.
	Give Ed a call, or me.
	And Dick gives me his number.
	So again, take of this information, some of it pretty far out on a limb regarding this flu or whatever the hell it is, with a grain of salt.
	But I keep getting these faxes and I'm reading them to you as I get them.
	Now, again, none of it may be true.
	Well, no, I know a lot of it's true, but a lot of the farther out stuff may not be.
	However, I am tempted to give Dick a call.
	See if he'd go on the air with this.
	Anyway, we'll be right back.
	From the high deserts, this is Coast to Coast AF.

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