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Dec. 7, 1997 - Art Bell

01:49:17

Dreamland with Art Bell - Greenhouse Gases - Hidden Files - Sue Kovach and Linda Moulton Howe

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	This is Dreamland.
	It certainly is another Sunday evening.
	I'm Art Bell, and as usual, in a moment, Linda Moulton Howe from Philadelphia, and her report, followed by Sue Kovach, who has written a really unique book called Hidden Files, law enforcement's true case stories of the unexplained and paranormal, including just about everything you could imagine, motorized ghosts, voodoo, Strange animals, occult sacrifices.
	You can imagine what the police run into, or maybe you can't, so we'll tell you tonight.
	All right, now from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, investigator into all kinds of strange things that go on in this world.
	Emmy award-winning documentary producer, environmental reporter, science reporter.
	At one time, Miss Idaho.
	Here she is, our very own Linda Moulton Howe from Philadelphia.
	Linda, hi.
	Well, hi Art.
	Our Earth and solar system were in the news this past week in many areas.
	Negotiators for 150 nations have been meeting since December 1st in Kyoto, Japan to discuss how much to cut back greenhouse gas emissions linked to global warming.
	This coming week there might be some resolution to setting a global standard Europe wants to reduce greenhouse gases by 15% below 1990 levels in the next 10 years.
	The U.S.
	proposal has been criticized as not strong enough, keeping greenhouse gas emissions at 1990 levels.
	At current rates, scientists estimate the Earth will warm up 6 degrees Fahrenheit over the next 100 years, raising sea levels and radically changing climate patterns.
	Most greenhouse gas emissions originate from the burning of fossil fuels.
	Back in 1992, the world governments tried voluntary restraints, which were basically ignored.
	So now the Kyoto meeting is an effort to set legally binding cutbacks.
	In other news, NASA announced that on January 5th, 1998, which is only about a month away, the first in a series of new unmanned moon explorations will begin.
	NASA's goal is to build a permanent human base on the moon.
	The upcoming January launch will place a lunar orbiter called Prospector which will circle the moon in a polar orbit every two hours at about 60 miles altitude for a year.
	Then Prospector will be put in a lower orbit at only six miles above the moon's surface for a close-up study.
	Prospector follows the Defense Department's Clementine satellite in 1994 Which photographed the entire moon, including ice, inside a crater at the Lunar South Pole.
	If Prospector proves there's water on the moon, a pipeline could be laid for this human base.
	Eventually, Prospector's fuel will run out and the satellite will crash into the moon's surface, becoming the twelfth piece of Russian and American wreckage up there.
	According to a NASA news release, Prospector, built for NASA by Lockheed Martin of Sunnyvale, California, ...will not have a computer, but will be guided entirely by controllers on Earth.
	The announcement also says that the spacecraft will not carry a camera, which seems as contradictory to expectations as NASA's resistance to have the Mars Global Surveyor take a specific photograph of the Cydonia region purported to have a large humanoid face impairment.
	The controversy about prior life on our Martian neighbor planet was also in the news this week.
	The journal Science quoted Dr. Matt Golombek, a Mars Pathfinder mission scientist, who said, quote, The body of evidence, including liquid water returned by the Pathfinder robot, is suggestive that conditions had been conducive for the formation of life early in Mars history, unquote.
	Liquid water evidence means that Mars was once much warmer, with a much thicker atmosphere than now.
	And recently, a couple of weeks ago, a Philadelphia Inquirer newspaper headline read, quote, NASA revisits the face on Mars.
	The spacecraft will update 1976 photos.
	At issue, an image that some say was left by space aliens, unquote.
	The article by Inquirer staff writer Faye Flam quoted geologist Dr. Michael Malan who heads Malan Space Science Systems Corporation in La Jolla, California.
	Dr. Malan is in charge of the JPL cameras on the Mars Global Surveyor.
	According to Faye Flam, Malan said the public interest in the original 1976 Viking photos of a mile-long hill that looks remarkably like an upward-staring face, quote, has been so great that NASA plans to take new shots of the face as part of its current survey of Mars.
	Yay.
	Yeah.
	The taxpayers are footing the bill, Malin said, and if they want the face, NASA should try to give them the face, unquote.
	Well, that statement from Dr. Malin surprised Dr. Mark Carlotto, who was in Philadelphia to give a lecture about his Cydonia Mars Research at the University of Pennsylvania's Bioengineering Department.
	Dr. Carlotto is a Senior Staff Scientist for Pacific Sierra Research Corporation of Arlington, Virginia.
	Pacific Sierra does government research and development and its chief client is DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency that works for the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
	Dr. Carlotto is an expert in separating things like tanks from trees in satellite photographs
	using sophisticated computer analysis methods.
	In 1991, Dr. Carlotto's excellent book, The Martian Enigmas, A Closer Look, was published,
	and recently a second edition with more photographs has come out with more detailed analyses about
	why Dr. Carlotto thinks the objects in the Martian Cydonia region, quote, were
	were not made by nature." Dr. Carlotto, like many others, was confused and disappointed
	when Dr. Malin said that his two cameras aboard the Mars Observer would not photograph the
	mysterious face on Mars. Critics frequently protested, it's up there, take a picture.
	So Faith Lamb's article describing Dr. Carlotto's lecture at the University of Pennsylvania
	and her information from Dr. Mike Malin that he is willing now to point the Mars Observer
	spacecraft at Cydonia for a photograph was a pleasant surprise.
	I was not able to contact Dr. Malin for this broadcast, but did talk with Dr. Carlotto about the pointing accuracy of Mars Observer, which Dr. Malin says on his website is within 15 to 17 kilometers.
	Now here is Dr. Mark Carlotto.
	Focus here should not just be on this one face.
	The face is surrounded by a collection of objects that are very unusual.
	And it's because we have this complex of objects, a number of anomalies in a small area, that's what really makes it interesting.
	This makes it sort of the number one target on Mars.
	This is a fairly large area.
	This is about a 20 by 20 kilometer area.
	So even though you can't point the camera, I mean, let's use Neyland's numbers of 15 to 17 kilometers.
	Even though you have that error, you're still likely to get it within a 20 by 20 kilometer box.
	And so if you target it repeatedly, every time you have the opportunity, chances are you're going to get a fair number of photos within that area.
	And someone actually using an orbital simulation program was able to determine based on the
	orbital elements of the orbit published by NASA that there was a possible imaging opportunity
	on October 18th.
	And whether or not they took the picture, I don't know.
	Bailin has only released 5% of the images.
	Only 5%?
	Yeah.
	Out of a total of about how many?
	200 and so we don't know what are in the others.
	I'm not trying to, you know, be serious about it.
	It could be that they're just very poor quality.
	He's just putting the best stuff online, which anyone, you know, would do.
	You and I started talking about Cydonia in 1988, and it's now almost 10 years later.
	In those 10 years, you've continued to refine your investigation of looking at the images, not just the face, but The pyramid and the strange configuration that some people have referred to as this complex that may or may not be something like a city complex.
	In these ten years, how would you summarize how your own attitude about the Cydonia region has evolved as you've done more and more investigations?
	I would be very surprised if it turns out to be natural.
	In short, I'm not saying that I'm sure or that I have proof, but there is so much evidence pointing towards artificiality.
	I would be surprised if Global Surveyor, when it imaged this area at higher resolutions, did not find further indications of artificiality.
	Dr. Carlotto explained there is no single piece of overwhelming evidence But when he applied fractal analysis used in his defense work to separate man-made objects from natural, he found at least 15 pieces of evidence that fell in the non-natural category.
	The point is, when you have enough of it, and you put it all together, and it all points in the same general direction, you can actually quantify that.
	And that's what I did.
	I quantified that, working from that fractal estimate and saying all these other sources
	of evidence, the alignment, the detail within the fortress, so on and so forth, there's
	about 15 to 16 pieces of evidence that we've accumulated.
	What happens is you put it all together and you get an extraordinary amount of evidence.
	Specifically, we started off with a million to one odds against the artificial hypothesis.
	In the literature, that's a good number to use for an extraordinary claim.
	But that says you're biased.
	One in a million against.
	A million to one against.
	And then we added all this evidence in from these different sources.
	15, 16 sources of evidence about the face of these other objects in this area.
	We ended up getting numbers between 100 and 100,000 to one in favor of the hypothesis.
	That it was artificial?
	Yes.
	What about the floor?
	The fort, I've always kind of found that almost as interesting, if not more interesting, because it's so angular, it really looks like a building or structure of some sort.
	And I've actually been able to do a rendering from the side, in other words, a side view, and you really get the sense of a pyramid collapsing into what now looks like the fort.
	And so I think it's possible that these structures are artificial.
	That the fortress might have been a collapsed pyramid, and that this pyramid next to the fort might, in fact, be hollow.
	When I was measuring these objects, each one of them, the face, and the fortress, and these pyramids, and the mounds, you can draw lines between them, and you can actually do averages.
	So you're not just taking an arbitrary point in the city, the city square, drawing a line through the mouth of the face and get an angle.
	You can actually take all these measurements and average them.
	And you can come up with an orientation.
	In fact, the angle that I got differs only about one degree from the current summer solstice alignment direction on Mars.
	And this one degree translates into, if you want to buy into a solstice argument, based on that wobble of Mars, translates into about a 33,000 year age.
	In other words, as early as 33,000 years ago, the summer solstice, sunrise, would have been in line with these objects.
	Now, 33,000 years ago is a very interesting number, because this is during that period where Neanderthals died out on Earth, and Homo Fabian Fabian emerged, and that's really where we It's a mystery how that happened.
	You are not related to Neanderthal.
	We're not.
	There's no genetic connection.
	It's becoming more and more of an enigma.
	Because we are not related to Neanderthal.
	We're not.
	We're not.
	There's no genetic connection.
	No genetic connection.
	This is becoming more and more of an enigma.
	The one thing I want to sort of close this with is that in Cydonia you have this pyramid
	that has one face going to the very precisely due south and then you have this arrangement
	of objects lined up in this sort of north of east direction, 3.1 degrees north of east.
	I have found two other sites on Mars that have the same sort of structure.
	They have, these two other sites have a pyramidal landform with the south face oriented almost to within measurement error.
	Oriented due south and have at least one other structure that is oriented in this same general north and east direction.
	One side is about 200 kilometers to the southwest and another one is about 500 kilometers to the southwest.
	This is telling me that this arrangement may be very significant.
	It's also telling us it's probably not geological.
	It's not just some sort of fault local to the area, but it's got these sites that are quite some distance away that seem to have other properties in common with this.
	And the same orientation of north, south, east, west.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And so let's assume that we start talking about this somewhat openly so it becomes, you know, so scientists are not afraid to talk about it.
	These people need to come out of the closet and look around and The world's changed.
	And most people believe in the existence of extraterrestrials.
	And most are not threatened by it.
	I think most people are more concerned with the government covering it up than the truth.
	I think they want to know what the truth is.
	And I couldn't agree with him more on that final comment.
	I think we are ready to know whatever the government knows about Mars.
	And Dreamland listeners can see Dr. Carlotto's analysis on the Internet by doing a search for the Martian Enigmas.
	That's how you get to his work and I can be reached at fax number
	215-491-9842 That's area code 215-491-9842
	It's quite a time art with our beginning to build a base on the moon
	if everything works out and we're inching our way closer and closer
	I think to this issue of other life at some point on Mars.
	Absolutely astounding.
	Astounding report.
	Just astounding.
	Linda, thank you.
	Yep.
	And we will do this once again next week.
	Okay.
	Okay?
	Look forward to it.
	Take care.
	Linda Bolton Howell, I'm Art Bell.
	This is Greenland, with Art Bell.
	Now, here again, is Art.
	Once again, here I am.
	The, uh, the content of, uh, Linda Malthouse's report has got to be contemplated very carefully.
	In other words, they have determined independently, scientifically, that there is a 100,000 to
	one chance that the objects on Mars, in the area of interest Cydonia and elsewhere, are
	not natural.
	100,000 to 1, that they are not natural.
	Let that sink in.
	You've got to imagine that NASA can also do the very same kind of calculations 35,000 years ago.
	A period of time that they can't quite account for how we made the leap to become the humans that we are now.
	So the importance of that report should sink in slowly but surely.
	We may have Mark, Dr. Carlotto, on the program late at night on Coast.
	That's incredible.
	Absolutely incredible.
	Coming up, Sue Kovacs.
	And Sue has... I don't know how Sue has done what she has done.
	She has a book called Hidden Files, Law Enforcement's True Case Stories Of the Unexplained and Paranormal.
	Kind of a cute book cover.
	It shows a detective badge on the front.
	And I have a number of questions for Sue, as you might imagine.
	So, Sue Kovach, coming up in a moment.
	We are presently being inundated here in the high desert with what the media is calling an El Nino Enhanced Storm, which more or less just means it's raining like hell here in the desert.
	However, we're going all the way across the country, and we're going to connect now with Sue Kovach, who is an investigative journalist.
	Sue, welcome to the program.
	Good evening, Art.
	Good evening to you.
	Sue, I'm really, really curious.
	Do you remember Close Encounters of the Third Kind?
	Sure do.
	Everybody saw that by now.
	In Close Encounters of the Third Kind, there was that famous scene where the aircraft controller asked the pilot, Do you wish to report a UFO?
	And the pilot, of course, who had a career... Actually, I think he said, do you want to report a UFO?
	And the pilot said, no, I don't want to.
	I want to report one of those, or whatever it was.
	They have careers, and their careers frequently hang on that kind of reporting.
	Now, I would think that police would be very much like airline pilots.
	That when it really gets down to it, whether it's a UFO or a strange occurrence of any sort that would fall into the paranormal realm, they would basically say, I don't want to report one of those.
	That's true.
	So how in the world do you get beyond that barrier and write a book about police who have seen strange things?
	Well, I thought it might be difficult to get some of these guys to come forward and speak on the record, which is what they had to do for the way I had my project planned.
	And I failed at some of them.
	It took time.
	I had to talk with these guys, get them to put a trust in me that I was going to present their material in a very serious way and not sensationalize it or pass judgment on them either.
	And certain ones were simply not willing to talk even after maybe 15 years after they had had a particular experience.
	But in general, I found most of these officers were, first of all, very open-minded about the subject matter.
	And they did want to discuss it.
	And when it came down to actually telling these stories, some of them were downright anxious.
	Really?
	Yeah, and it may be that they haven't had an opportunity to really talk about it very much.
	Maybe they had to deal with a little bit of ribbing from fellow officers.
	I'm sure.
	Yeah, but there did get to be a point where most of them that I had contacted were very willing to talk about what had happened to them.
	What launched you on all of this?
	In other words, why go to law enforcement at all?
	What launched you into that area of investigation?
	Well, I had been at a point in my career where I was getting a little bored with the day-to-day reporting, and I was thinking about doing a book.
	I had always had an interest in the paranormal, and I had been talking with some police officers that I knew, which you can imagine reporters do meet a lot of cops, and one of them was telling me about an experience he'd had that was a little odd, and just the way he explained it, And the details and the observations he made.
	I don't have a really good background on you, or if I do, I haven't found it.
	You were an investigative journalist for a mainstream kind of newspaper?
	Well, I've been a freelance journalist for about 10 years.
	10 years, all right.
	Doing no mainstream work.
	Right.
	Newspapers, magazines, and also TV producing for shows like Inside Edition, and American Journal, and America's Most Wanted.
	So, I had come across a lot of cops over the years, and reporters and cops get to be friends.
	They do.
	They do, but when you're writing a book and you're going to put them on the record, I would think that would be the moment of truth.
	Well, again, it was a matter of trust in how the material was going to be presented.
	They had to sort of feel that there would be no surprises in the end in how it was presented.
	And my goal was to simply get the stories, get as much detail from them as I could.
	And present these experiences with their observations on what had happened.
	And again, to not pass judgment on it.
	Because for me, it was a seeking mission too.
	You know, let's hear what these guys have to say about these various paranormal phenomena they've encountered, because these are the people who deal with evidence and hard facts on a daily basis.
	They're trained analytical thinkers.
	And it's their job to solve mysteries.
	And they're trained analytical observers, trained to recall correctly what they see.
	Now that leads, for example, to UFOs.
	We have this great ongoing question in the world about these unidentified flying objects that zip about.
	Now cops, and I worked with cops because I was a 9-1-1 dispatcher, Sue, and so I know, I work third shift, I know they spend eight hours out there, seven or eight hours out there, In the middle of the night, obviously, they would have an opportunity to see a lot more than the average person might see.
	Right.
	At that time of night, too, generally, things are slow.
	That's it.
	They're looking, they're looking, they're looking, and sure, they're going to see a lot.
	So what, for example, in that area, UFOs, have you found or is in the book with regard to what police have seen?
	Well, they've seen just about Any type of UFO that you've ever heard a report on.
	Everything from lights bouncing across the sky to the big black triangular shaped objects to frankly one instance where they encountered an object that I'd never come across before in any of the reports that I have heard.
	And this one took place in Kentucky.
	Two helicopter patrolmen had been called to a burglary, and this was at night, They were to provide air support until the units got there.
	They went to the area and were hovering and waiting and one of them noticed a light below them at about tree level.
	A bright orange light that seemed to be encased in some kind of a plastic covering that was very transparent.
	And all of a sudden this thing rose up to the same level that they were hovering at And was just sort of sitting there and they didn't know what this thing was and then it zipped out of sight.
	And the pilot was very concerned about something being behind him because helicopter pilots don't want anything getting near their rotor.
	Oh, you bet.
	So he started moving and wanted to, if this thing was out there, he wanted to make sure that it was in front of him where he could see it.
	And he did see the object behind him.
	He started maneuvering the chopper around And if he kept trying to keep it in front of him, this object kept wanting to be behind him.
	So what resulted was a very bizarre chase.
	With this thing where eventually they were reaching speeds of, he estimates, 120 to 130 miles an hour.
	Trying to get away from it.
	Trying to get away from it, or at least in his case, trying to keep it in front of him so he could see it.
	And his observer, his partner, radioed to the ground unit Get here and look at this thing, you know, there's something going on here.
	And when the patrol units arrived, they were all on the ground watching this going on, this back and forth chase.
	Wow!
	When was this?
	This was, I believe, in 93.
	93?
	Right.
	And at some point, finally, this thing got out of sight of both of the officers, and later they were told by a paramedic who had been riding with one of the ground units, That she saw the thing just shoot very, very high up in the air and then do one of these take off and vanish kind of acts.
	Grand exit.
	But that was not before, at one point, it shot something.
	I beg your pardon?
	Something, and the UFO was shooting like little orange fireballs out of it.
	And it wasn't shooting them at the chopper, but everyone, including the units on the ground, observed some sort of orange ball coming out of this UFO and just sort of gracefully arcing
	toward the ground and they dissipated as they fell.
	How did they wake this up?
	Well when they went back to the heliport they weren't exactly sure what to do.
	This was at about one in the morning at this point.
	They knew they had to talk to their lieutenant.
	They called him and woke him up and told him all about this thing happening.
	told them they had to do a report as they normally would.
	And they, of course, knew that the media was going to latch on to this right away.
	But he told them, you have to tell it like it is.
	This is the experience you had.
	You saw this.
	You have to tell it.
	Because if you don't, sure as anything, they're going to think we're hiding something.
	So in this case, these officers, their department was behind them the whole time.
	And they did go very public with this and talked about it.
	And it made all the wires.
	It was out on all the wire services.
	Gee, I wish our own Air Force would adopt that attitude.
	Yeah, wouldn't that be nice?
	To be able to get some real straight story.
	They did go back to the area because this had taken place in the winter.
	And a lot of the area they were flying over was wide open field that had a fresh blanket of snow on it.
	So they got to thinking, well, maybe we can see where those fireballs were coming out.
	Maybe something is on the ground.
	Maybe we can get some actual physical evidence of what occurred.
	But they and several of the ground units could find absolutely nothing, and the snow was undisturbed.
	So in the end, there was nothing but their observance.
	Um, did they have any other confirmation of the object, like radar?
	Did anybody, did they have radar?
	Did anybody else see it on radar?
	Well, one of the officers called the tower at the local airport.
	Sure.
	And asked if they had seen anything.
	And in fact, they had.
	What the tower was watching was the helicopter going around in circles all by itself.
	They didn't see anything else on their radar.
	I see.
	They did say that a couple days later, though, and this had not made it into any of the news reports, they were contacted by a UFO investigator, I believe from their local area.
	Probably a Mufon representative or something.
	Right.
	And they met with this man who told them that about 15 to 20 minutes after their experience, there had been a sighting of a similar object in the neighboring county.
	And that there had been other sightings of the same thing.
	So there were a lot more independent sightings in a larger area.
	So in other words, you've got two officers in the helicopter who saw it.
	You've got officers on the ground who confirmed it.
	Right.
	And then you've got other independent civilian witnesses who also saw it.
	Right.
	In several counties around it, it turned out.
	And they also got a phone call from a retired police helicopter pilot.
	Who told them that years before, he had seen something very similar while he was out flying?
	But it was a very strange sounding object, not like anything I'd ever heard.
	It wasn't this disc-shaped thing that people talk about.
	It wasn't the black triangle.
	Just this very strange orange light encased in some kind of a transparent covering.
	Very odd.
	I've not come across that anywhere else.
	Yeah, very odd indeed.
	I have had a personal sighting of a triangular black object, 150 feet above me, Sue.
	No noise.
	My wife was with me.
	Passed right over our head.
	We stood and watched it for a good five minutes.
	Float, and I say float, not fly, across the valley where I live here.
	And there was no question about it, Sue.
	It changed my life.
	And once you've seen something that close up, It does that to you.
	It changes your life.
	It cannot help but change your life.
	You know there are things going on out there for which there are no conventional explanations.
	So I presume that was my big sighting, one of them.
	I've had two in my life.
	I would love to see something like that.
	Would you?
	Yes, I would.
	I would say be careful what you wish for in the sense that it does change you and you go from being Objectively distant in what you report to understanding that it's absolutely real, and that's a little bit of a difference.
	Anyway, I take it that you've had other people reporting these triangular objects?
	Yes, actually there are a number of sightings of triangular objects here in Florida.
	That seems to be the object of choice for this state.
	But I did talk to a police officer in North Florida who had quite an experience with one of these.
	And as you say, it's a major force in changing one's life, and that certainly happened with this fellow.
	He had been out on special patrol.
	This was in 1993, after Hurricane Andrew, but there had been some other big storms of hurricane force at that time.
	This was north of Tampa, along the coast.
	And the storm had been so bad that a lot of the coastal areas' residents had been evacuated.
	So this is what he was doing, was going into these areas and just offering support or, you know, keeping an eye on things.
	Sure.
	And he was by himself.
	The storms had gone.
	It was night.
	Very clear.
	Actually, a nice night.
	He was just poking along, driving back toward town, and had his windows down, and happened
	to notice some lights through the trees.
	And at first, he thought it was a nuclear power plant up the coast that he can occasionally
	see when he's driving along.
	But suddenly, he realized that this nuclear power plant was moving along with him.
	And he thought, well, this doesn't look right.
	And then just it rose above the trees.
	And it was one of these black triangular objects that he described as being about 300 feet from tip to tip.
	Uh-huh.
	Inside.
	And he thought, well I'm not seeing this.
	He actually tried to ignore this thing at first and just kept driving along and not wanted to look out the window and then he had to look out again and it was still there.
	Just going right beside him.
	And it didn't make a sound.
	Uh-huh.
	So he stopped his car and why he did this I'll never know because if it was me I'm not so sure I would have.
	He got out.
	I did the same thing.
	Did you?
	Yep.
	I guess I probably would too.
	But then he took his spotlight and he shined it up onto the thing.
	Now I might not do that.
	Yeah, I don't know if I would do that either.
	And he also turned off his car.
	And he turned off all of his radios.
	Which later he said, in retrospect, that was a really bad idea because then I was out of communication.
	Well actually I did the same thing.
	I pulled over to the side of the road.
	My wife saw it coming from behind us.
	and stopped the car and turned off the engine and the radio that had been on.
	And we both got out individually on our sides and stood there, transfixed, watching this thing come up
	behind us and then finally directly over our heads. I mean it was like it was close enough,
	Sue, that you could just about throw a rock at it, though I did not and would not have.
	Well, I guess it would be a natural reaction to turn off the car and the radio because
	you want to find out if there's a noise.
	That's right, and in my case, you could hear crickets at a good quarter mile,
	maybe more, and it was utterly, totally, completely silent.
	Wow.
	Doing what I would describe as about 30 miles an hour, which is floating, not aerodynamically flying.
	Right.
	And it sounds just like what you're describing that officer saw.
	Right, and his stopped and hovered right above him, and he shined a light on it, and noticed that it was black and non-reflective.
	Yes.
	He had a couple of white lights, but mostly a very neon bluish kind of light that seemed to be around the perimeter, or the edges of it.
	And he stood there and just watched this thing, and was very curious about it, and then it was like suddenly a wave of panic just overtook him.
	And he thought, I'd better get out of here.
	And he jumped into the car, turned on all the radios, turned on the lights, and just tore down the road.
	And this thing tore after him.
	Wow, bad.
	It was still beside him, but it seemed if he sped up, it did.
	Bad, bad.
	It slowed down, it slowed down.
	Oh no, really?
	He estimates he was doing at least 100 miles an hour because the roads were deserted, there was no one there, and he was just going to put that baby into the wind.
	And at some point, when he was getting really concerned, he started thinking, well, now what's going to happen?
	I can't shake this thing.
	At that point, Suddenly the thing just turned at a really weird angle and just cut in front of him and then headed away from him.
	All right, Sue, we're at the top of the hour.
	Hold on.
	That was a real beaut.
	That really was a beaut.
	Now, fortunately, the object I saw simply traveled beyond me and kept on floating across the valley.
	Had it chased me from the high desert, this is dreamland.
	Public hearings start tomorrow in Baltimore, and to the explosion of TWA Flight 800, John Seaman's niece was among the 230 who died in the blast.
	He says he'll be there for the entire week of hearings.
	We want the problem fixed.
	We don't want this happening to anyone else.
	Last month, the FBI rolled out a bomb blast for missile attack as possible causes, and that leads to mechanical failure.
	This is Dreamland with Art Bell.
	Now, here again is Art.
	Well, the latter part is true.
	The first part is not.
	We are not yet taking calls, but we will be.
	My guest is Sue Kovach, who was a very, very much a mainstream investigative journalist, freelance, for years and years, and turned her attention Welcome to Law Enforcement's True Cases of the Unexplained and Paranormal.
	Her book is called Hidden Files, and in a lot of ways our careers have paralleled, because I have done, if you think about it, much the same thing, in the way I have turned my attention over the years.
	Sue Kovach, who wrote Hidden Files, Law Enforcement's True Case Stories of the Unexplained and Paranormal.
	Here she is.
	Welcome back, Sue.
	Okay.
	You can put me in for one of those newsletters.
	I just called right now, but I'm kind of tied up.
	Kind of tied up, right.
	Oh, they really did a job.
	You know, they went to this glossy paper.
	I'm really proud of the newsletter.
	It's really neat.
	Great.
	Anyway, back to our subject, and it's not just UFOs, although obviously, I'm sure there are many stories of UFOs.
	Frequently on this program, I talk to a lot of people, like Brad Steiger, for example, about ghosts, about poltergeists, apparitions, and they may or may not even fit into the same realm as UFOs.
	I've wondered a lot about that.
	But you have interviewed officers about all kinds of things that include that sort of thing, correct?
	Right.
	I came across several interesting ghost stories and poltergeist stories.
	Well, it seems that the unexplained things that officers run into are not just limited to UFOs, so I did look into that area as well, and there were incidents where actually a ghost was involved in helping to solve a case, or at least to get more information on a case.
	A ghost was involved in helping to solve a case?
	Right.
	I'd like to see that report.
	Well, this one occurred in Hawaii, and there had been an unsolved murder case that it was about a year old, and this particular homicide investigator was pretty new to the squad, but they had gotten a call, a report of a ghost.
	And he was sort of given this case because he was the junior man.
	It was very much an elbow-to-the-ribs thing.
	Ha ha!
	Yeah, I know.
	You know, go see a woman about a ghost.
	Go see a woman about a ghost, yep.
	Interesting.
	But they did put it together, however.
	The head of the squad did say, this may or may not have something to do with this unsolved homicide.
	And gave the guy this file where he found Your old homicide, the body was found in a car near the airport.
	So they knew that he had been killed somewhere else, but they had never found out where.
	And where this ghost had been reported turned out to be a factory, a business that had once been owned by the victim's wife.
	And it was a clothing factory.
	When the officers got there, it was all the seamstresses who worked there who had reported sensing a ghost.
	They didn't actually see it, but they said they could feel it.
	They could feel a cold rush of air, and he would brush past them.
	And they could also smell the scent of a particular hair styling gel or grease that this person used, and they knew who this person was.
	And when they asked them, well, who do you think this ghost is?
	They said that it was this murder victim.
	They sent out the police officer, now let me be straight on this, based on the testimony of the people who were working there, the seamstresses, who sensed the ghost?
	In other words, they dispatched based on that?
	They sent them there because it happened to be a company that used to be owned by this victim's I know, but again, I'm asking based on nothing more than the employee saying, there's something here.
	Right.
	Well, in Hawaii, there are a lot of superstitions.
	Oh, I know.
	A culture very rich in superstition and ghost stories and things like this.
	Even if people don't necessarily believe in it, A lot of the police officers who work there will say that if somebody is telling them this, there's a basis for it.
	That there's something that made them believe that this was important.
	They're not necessarily going to discount it out of hand.
	Oh no, you're exactly right.
	I have interviewed any number of people about paranormal things in Hawaii, and it's a very, very rich environment in that sort of thing.
	uh... my wife is from hawaii and uh... she knows and we've interviewed people from the islands and there's no question about it it is far it's very much accepted there as almost uh... a cultural thing right and and and and a police officer who is working in that type of environment does does well to really pay attention to what the locals are saying and and this was the particular case where they they just felt there had to have been a strong basis for this report Okay, so he went over there.
	Right, he went there and they explained who they thought this was.
	And the reason being that this hair pomade, this hair styling cream that they could smell was what this guy used to use.
	And he used to come by and visit the factory a lot, so they all knew him.
	And this is why they thought it was him.
	And there was one particular area where they always sensed the presence And at this particular time, the department had what then was a new tool for investigation, and that was Luminol.
	Oh yes, Luminol.
	Everybody will recall Luminol from the O.J.
	Simpson trial.
	Right.
	Picks up traces of blood.
	Right.
	By glowing very brightly.
	Right.
	And again, this was something new for them, so they thought they would try it out.
	Just in case, maybe this might have been where the guy was killed.
	And the first place they went was to the owner's quarters.
	They'd gone to several places in the factory and sprayed the luminol and come up with nothing.
	But when they went to the spot where these women said that they sensed the ghost, and sprayed the luminol, it was at the bottom of the stairway.
	Suddenly they picked up traces of blood everywhere.
	Wow.
	On the concrete floor in swirl patterns, which the officer described looking as though someone had taken a mop and had been cleaning up.
	And this had been, again, a year before that this murder would have occurred.
	And who knows how many times that floor might have been washed.
	Of course.
	But they were still picking it up.
	And they continued to spray the luminol and found a trace that led to a wall, which, when the officer looked at it, he thought, well, if someone tried to hose this floor down, there might have been some backsplash of water.
	It would have gone all the way to the opposite wall and splashed and then gone to the drain.
	Where they'd seen a lot of traces around the drain in the floor.
	Makes sense.
	And he went up to the wall and that wall was really glowing.
	So he started to wonder, well, what's on the other side of this wall is another factory.
	So I'd like to see what the other side of this wall looks like.
	So they went over there and found that there had been some paneling installed.
	So there actually was a double wall.
	He took the paneling off from the other side and found A lot of a substance in between the walls that looked like blood.
	Yes.
	And they scraped up several vials of this to analyze.
	Then they sprayed the luminol again, and he said that it glowed so brightly that they, in pitch blackness, they could have pulled out a newspaper and read it.
	So it was blood according to the luminol.
	And they analyzed it later, and they had some samples from the victims still in their files.
	So now they tried another new tool they had, which was DNA testing.
	Right.
	And this was really new then.
	This was in the early 80s.
	And they came up with a 99.99% match to the victim.
	Holy mackerel.
	DNA testing now, of course, has gone wild, and there is an interesting report.
	This is kind of a sidelight to what you're saying.
	According to the FBI, since DNA testing has come into its own, Fully 25%.
	Check this out.
	25% of all those tested are exonerated rather than convicted.
	Isn't that amazing?
	Right.
	In fact, I think I heard that there were some people who were now being freed based on DNA testing.
	Precisely.
	Exonerated.
	That's right.
	People, of course, they go back and revisit old crimes with new technology.
	Right.
	But the implication of this is that about 25% Of the criminals charged in these kinds of cases are in jail without cause.
	They are innocent people.
	That is an amazing thing to contemplate.
	Right, we've been sending the wrong people away.
	Yeah, one in four.
	That's astounding.
	I've got a newspaper article here, USA Today, as a matter of fact, if anyone wants to check, November 28th.
	They actually, they determined there was a 99 point something or another chance it was the blood from the victim.
	Right.
	So now they had something that for a year they didn't know and that was the location of the murder.
	Which then put a new light onto who possible suspects may have been.
	And in this case they had suspected a family member And now they could go back and look at that again.
	Which they were not able to do earlier because there was nothing to give them enough evidence to be able to go in with warrants.
	Right.
	And to look any closer.
	So now they did.
	So they were able to go back in, but the problem was, and seems like it still is, the officer felt that there were People who maybe didn't quite understand a lot of this new technology, and of course it was very new then, but just did not really understand the DNA technology.
	They still had a problem getting anything to really happen as far as any charges or anything like that.
	It was new then?
	It was very new then.
	In fact, this was, he says, the first time the DNA was used and had a hit.
	That is nevertheless a remarkable story, and it leads me to ask you the question that I ask a lot of people, and it's going to call for your giving an opinion, and you certainly don't have to.
	When you're talking about ghosts or apparitions, It is central to one of the great questions that mankind has before him now, and may always have, we may never answer it, and that is whether there is a life, an actual consciousness, that extends beyond the one we have right now.
	What happens when we die?
	Now, there are a couple of theories regarding apparitions, ghosts.
	One, that they are actual remnants Actual souls who are bound for some unknown reason to Earth and have not gone on, and that frequently happens in cases of murder, in cases of unequated love, in cases of unexpected death and murder or suicide, that kind of thing.
	And the other, Sue, is that these apparitions are simply echoes of what once Well, what I was told in my research is that what you've just described are two entirely separate phenomena.
	of the departed. Do you have a theory of which you think it is?
	Well, what I was told in my research is that what you've just described are two entirely
	separate phenomena.
	And both can or...
	Right. Both can and do, in a lot of people's opinions, exist. The ghost or the apparition
	being the person's consciousness or personality somehow surviving the death of the body.
	It shows intelligence, a consciousness, and often interacts with people.
	The second case that you described, the haunting, is a non-interactive encounter.
	And a haunting does not usually involve a ghost in the traditional sense.
	It's more of an imprint on the environment.
	Precisely.
	Right, the mark of a person or event that happened as little as five years ago or as far back as 500 years or more.
	In the case you just described, do you think we're talking about the latter?
	An imprint?
	I think that case would be a ghost.
	An actual ghost, the consciousness of the victim in this case.
	That's a really, it's a horrible thing to contemplate because it implies that We can be, in effect, stuck here.
	Well, now after, when everything was said and done in the case, they tried, but again, they couldn't even bring a suspect in for charges.
	But after all this, they never sensed this ghost again.
	See, the implication is obvious.
	It is that the spirit of this murdered person wanted that evidence discovered.
	And remained here until it was, and then moved on afterwards.
	Right, the officer said he felt that, if this was indeed the ghost of the victim, that maybe now that ghost was satisfied, that the officer believed him, even if he didn't necessarily believe in him.
	Okay, let me tell you something.
	I do a big nationwide show, this is one of them, but I do another one called Coast, and I get Email and letters from officers all over the country who tell me stories, kind of like the one you just told, only in my case, they always end up by saying, Art, please keep my name out of this, keep me anonymous.
	They tell me all kinds of stories, but inevitably, when the bottom line time comes, they either refuse to be interviewed, or they say, this is for your files, Art, for your edification, but please don't use my name.
	And I just don't know how you managed to get around that.
	Well, I said it took some time, and there were some that I didn't get.
	So, uh, but I'm still working on them.
	All right, so you hold on.
	We'll be right back to you.
	Uh, I've got an idea that might be kind of fun when we begin taking calls.
	Maybe you can sense what I'm up to.
	From an area near Dreamland, this is Dreamland.
	This is Dreamland, with Art Bell.
	Once again, here I am, and maybe you sensed where I was about to go.
	It occurred to me about an hour into this interview.
	I'm going to give you a full range of the telephone numbers here in a moment, and I'm going to try something now.
	It may or may not work, but everybody please clear all of the lines right now.
	I'm going to do something I have never really done before.
	I'm going to open all my lines, all of them.
	For anybody in law enforcement who has observed or seen something like Sue Kovach is talking about, anybody from law enforcement who has a story to tell, and I'm going to extend it not just to police, but to firemen, civil service workers of various sorts, and pilots.
	In other words, people in official positions who have observed the paranormal, in one form or another.
	Now, I may not get any calls, or I may.
	I understand that a lot of you don't want to talk about this, but if any of you are willing to talk about it, we are certainly willing to listen.
	So, once again, let me extinguish all of my phone lines for normal calls, And let's see if we can hear from any police officers or other official types who have seen and experienced some of the things we're talking about right now.
	We're about to delve into a couple of other very interesting areas.
	But if you're in that capacity, you don't have to use your real name.
	Sue Kovach.
	It'd be interesting to see what we get on the phones, huh?
	Yeah, I thought of that earlier.
	Open a cop line.
	Well, I'm open them all.
	I'm going to make them all for cops.
	Listen, um, There are a lot of missing person reports.
	People end up disappearing all the time, Sue.
	One can imagine they die, the body's never found.
	One can imagine they get sick of their life, they take off, they go somewhere else, whatever it is they do.
	But one can also imagine that an awful lot of people who simply disappear meet up with something, well, something like what we've been talking about.
	What do you think?
	It's a possibility.
	There were cases that I came across where family members certainly felt that there may have been something like that involved.
	The number of people that go missing is just staggering.
	As of this past spring, according to the FBI's Crime Information Center, there were over 101,000 people listed as missing in the NCIC computer.
	Really?
	The equivalent of the entire city of Albany, New York just up and vanishing one day.
	Just missing.
	And that's a compilation of all current reports or what?
	Right, that would have been as of April 15th of 97.
	All missing people that were reported to the FBI's National Crime Information Computer.
	101,000 people gone.
	That's astounding.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Where are they?
	I have no idea.
	All right, let's try a few calls, Sue, and see what we get just for the fun of it here.
	On our first time caller line, you're on the air with Art Bell and Sue Kovach.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hello there.
	Where are you?
	I'm in Middle Tennessee.
	All right, sir.
	I'm a firefighter.
	Yes, sir.
	And just to verify the topic, I just caught your show.
	We are talking about paranormal activity?
	We are.
	Observed by people like yourself, you know, in official positions.
	Okay.
	Um, just the other day, uh, my fiancé and I were home alone.
	Um, it was late.
	Um, earlier in the day, I'd been in the room, you know, watching television.
	Um, out of the corner of my eye, I saw something just kind of enter my room, uh, just very quickly.
	Um, it scared me.
	Um, it's never happened to me before.
	Um, and there was nothing there, of course, and I walked around and checked the house and no one was home.
	I didn't mention it, you know, it kind of freaked me out, but, you know, it just kind of went away.
	Sure.
	Later that night, back to the fiancé, she was going down the hallway, and I was in the other room, and she started, you know, calling my name.
	I walked, you know, where she was at, and she said that she had heard this woman talking, wailing, very distressed, not malevolent, but just certainly distressed, and it was very loud to her.
	I didn't hear anything.
	That's when I told her what had happened.
	I was just wondering what that might have been.
	It just went away then or what?
	Yeah, we haven't heard or seen anything from it.
	I've read a lot of spiritual books and I've delved into this stuff and I'd heard that reciting the Lord's Prayer can kind of clear things away or just doing a prayer for goodwill to try to I don't know, help out whatever it might be that's hanging around.
	Usually we'll do the trick.
	All right.
	I'll do that later.
	We're very nearly talking about exorcism then.
	Sue, have you also heard that when these, whatever they are, like that man just talked about, these things are present, that they can be somehow set free or moved or exorcised with prayer, that sort of thing?
	Well, he mentioned the term goodwill, and that certainly is a part of it.
	But I'm wondering, was this in your home, or your fiancé's house, or where was it?
	Well, he's not here apparently.
	It was in his home.
	Oh, okay.
	What I'm told is that because a ghost is really a lost soul, The soul of somebody who has died and is basically in denial of that death.
	They return to favorite places.
	A house, a restaurant, hotels.
	You always hear about hotels and restaurants being haunted by ghosts.
	Yes.
	We have them here in my state.
	We have a haunted hotel to the north of us.
	We have, Sue, legal brothels in Nevada.
	They're illegal and there's a long tradition for them here.
	And there is also a long tradition of hauntings in them.
	Strange, huh?
	Yeah, well generally it can involve some type of unfinished business or a question or this entity simply not knowing that it's dead.
	Talking to it... Yeah, the police deal with unfinished business a lot, don't they?
	They deal with sudden death.
	They deal with tragic death.
	They deal with all those kinds of things, so it would make all the sense in the world to me that they would have more than the average person's share of these kinds of things.
	Getting them to talk about it, that's the trick.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Sue Kovach.
	Hello.
	Hello, Art.
	Hi.
	Where are you?
	Well, I won't give away too much, because this only happened about two years ago, and it was kind of highly publicized.
	I'm in Florida.
	Pretty much.
	So is Sue.
	Are you an officer of the law?
	Yes, I am.
	Oh, alright.
	Not with the same county that I was when this incident occurred.
	Okay.
	Approximately two and a half years ago, I was working a 6 to 2 shift, and 6 p.m.
	to 2 a.m., and it was a pretty normal Thursday night, and actually rolled into Friday morning.
	And I'd gotten a domestic disturbance call, and we were sitting up at the local shop, You know, car to car talking to each other.
	You know, I told him I'd take the call and he said he'd roll behind me as my backup.
	So, we get to this place that we had gone to two previous nights earlier.
	Okay?
	And it had been, this lady had called down that her husband was beating on her.
	Okay?
	And we got there and there was no husband.
	Come to find out she wasn't married and all this other stuff.
	So, we get there this night and it turns out it's the same lady and I recognize her.
	So, my partner stays out and he's standing out there talking to her.
	I'm walking up the thing into the house expecting to find nobody.
	I figure she's got some type of mental illness or something.
	My partner yells back, she's got some bruises on her arm.
	I'm thinking, well, this is kind of weird now.
	This is a new twist to the story.
	As I enter the house, immediately when you come to the front door, there's a door to your left-hand side leading to one of the bedrooms.
	I see this door kind of crack.
	I unholstered my weapon at that time, thinking, you know, I don't know exactly what I'm going to come up on.
	So, about that time, the door closes shut.
	Like, real quick and abrupt.
	So, I signal out to my partner, you know, you better come on back in here.
	And he comes up behind me, and we kind of take a pwned stance in towards the door to get a direct angle of fire on.
	And, you know, we start hollering out, police, you know, come on out, open the door, and there's no response.
	So, I go ahead up, and I sneak up to the side of the door, and he's covering me on the other side.
	I twist the handle with my foot, and I push the door open.
	Well, the door hit something.
	Okay?
	I mean, mid-stream open, and it hit something.
	So, I took my foot and kicked the door all the way open, expecting to hit somebody behind and knock them down or something like that.
	And, uh, as I jumped in front of the door to get a clear line of shot, I see what I attest to be a brown figure.
	Okay?
	Well, excuse me, a brown figure?
	A brown figure.
	Now when I say brown, usually it's a low light situation.
	Okay?
	Right.
	And brown is the closest color I can say it was.
	Okay.
	Okay?
	Immediately I point my weapon at him.
	Okay?
	You know, and I tell him to freeze.
	And about that time the door starts closing on me.
	Alright?
	Now it was instinctual at that time.
	And I had, I shot off two rounds through the door.
	And uh, because the door was coming in at me and I was an angle, I got hit by the door.
	Which would have put me in a bad situation because I could have lost my weapon.
	Understood.
	So, I fired off two rounds through the door, which, through the police academy, they'll tell you never to fire through anything at somebody, because you don't know where it's going to hit or where it's going to go.
	Okay.
	And I realized what I did, and I was in a state of panic.
	I opened the door, you know, and the bullet had went, both bullets had went clean through the door, okay?
	We shoot very hot rounds, positive P-positive rounds.
	Right.
	Okay?
	They'll go through a corridor in a heartbeat.
	This was just a little flimsy old wooden door.
	At that time I pushed the door open and there's nothing.
	Now right in my line of fire was a big bay window.
	Okay?
	So if I had put two rounds through that whole wall, okay, it would have just shattered that window into a million pieces.
	Gotcha.
	Okay?
	So at that time I realized, you know, well, okay, I hit somebody.
	So at that time I turned the light on and there was nothing.
	I mean absolutely nothing.
	So where did those rounds go?
	That's my point.
	Okay, so we had to call in an evidence technician.
	Okay?
	Because when a police officer in that county discharges a firearm for any reason, there's a full investigation.
	Okay?
	It doesn't matter if anybody was hit or what.
	So they called in two evidence technician vans.
	They went through the house.
	I mean, they even went into parts of the house that we had nothing to do with.
	Right.
	And they found no traces of blood.
	Okay?
	They found the powder burns on the door.
	Okay?
	And the obvious two bullet holes.
	But they searched outside, figuring, well, maybe it, you know, cricked through one of the seals in the window or something.
	Lucky shot.
	Nothing.
	Nothing.
	And at that point in time, you know, it began going through the department.
	I had to file this paperwork, and I didn't really know what to say in the paperwork.
	I'm sure.
	You know, and then I went through a review board, you know, and they're screaming and hollering at me, you know, do I commonly shoot and not know what I'm shooting at, you know, and all this other stuff.
	But I'll swear to the day I'm out of law enforcement.
	Okay.
	What I saw standing in that doorway, okay, or behind that door, was a figure.
	A brown figure.
	What I would testify to be a human figure.
	Okay?
	And, you pointed out my point, too.
	Okay?
	I hit that door, the rounds flew clean through that door.
	Where did those bullets go?
	Because nobody, to this day, has been able to tell me.
	Well, that's a doozy.
	Well, they've never found the rounds.
	Never found the rounds.
	Now, I found a case that jumped out of my gun.
	But not the rounds.
	Never the slugs.
	Never the slugs, yeah.
	Holy mackerel.
	Did you ever get called back to that house again?
	After that night I had been placed on administrative leave for five days.
	They went through the civil review board, then it leaked into the papers and everything like that.
	They told me they'd keep me on, they'd move me to a desk job.
	I said, look, I put this badge on to work the streets.
	So I at that time resigned and went immediately a week later to work for another county in Florida.
	That is a remarkable story.
	Wow.
	Ask and ye shall receive.
	Sir, I really, really appreciate your coming forward with that.
	I take it to this day you remain in law enforcement?
	I am in law enforcement and I can promise you this, I carry a flashlight everywhere I go.
	I don't in any way mean to be funny when I say this, but is this story Still haunting you?
	Is it following you?
	Well, I can tell you this.
	I've drawn my weapon since then on two individuals.
	I've shot one individual.
	Not killing him, but I'll tell you this.
	The instance where I hit that individual, and I saw him go down, okay?
	And I knew that his life was in jeopardy, positively.
	But the incident where I shot my weapon, what I still to this day believe, those two rounds impacted somebody or something.
	Okay.
	It bothers me not knowing what they hit and where they went.
	What I meant was, does this story follow you from county to county?
	Is it sort of one of those things that hangs around your neck?
	Well, police officers, commonly, anybody will tell you that works in law enforcement or has worked in law enforcement, they have a real, kind of a sadistic sense of humor.
	And I do get the poltergeist police jokes here and there and stuff like that, you know, round them up.
	Most of the guys I work with now are real good and understand about it.
	Verbally or physically, no, it does not follow me in my job.
	Would you tell your story to somebody who would document it or would that have to wait
	until you retired?
	Well, I'm fully invested in retirement right now, but my thing about it is I worked long
	and hard to get where I'm at towards a retirement.
	How many years do you have now?
	I have 17 years right now.
	I had the case of a guy in Florida who had almost 25 years and he lost his job.
	I doubt I would let anybody, my name, address, and all this other stuff, I doubt I would
	let anybody document that even after I retired.
	Well I heartily appreciate your coming forward and telling the story.
	Anytime Mark.
	How many years do you have now?
	I have 17 years right now.
	I had the case of a guy in Florida who had almost 25 years and he lost his job.
	It can happen.
	It can happen.
	All right, sir.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	There you go.
	So, boy, classic.
	Absolute classic.
	And I understand exactly where that man is coming from.
	I wouldn't come forward either.
	You say you have experience with somebody who did and lost their job.
	There's a couple of cases like that.
	Actually, something you said earlier struck me, and I could tell in the way he was talking about it, when you said there would be officers out there who would not want to talk about their experience.
	But they have often a real need to talk about it, and he sounded like he had a need to get that off his chest.
	I agree with you.
	And the officer that had the UFO experience had told me when I asked him, would you fill out that report again?
	He said, no way!
	I never would have said anything if I had had a clue that anything like this would have happened.
	But at the same time, he felt that not talking about it would have had a real negative effect on him.
	Well, of course, you've got to carry that within for all those years, and that can be very, very, very damaging.
	Yeah, he said he felt a lot better after he had written the report, simply because he had put it down on paper.
	But at the same time, that's what got him into trouble in the first place.
	Very different experiences, the officers who, the helicopter patrolmen, where their department was behind them the whole way.
	versus this guy who ended up losing his job.
	I talked to the department.
	They denied that that experience had anything to do with it.
	But privately, a newspaper reporter in the area told me that he had been told they thought
	he was crazy.
	All right, Sue.
	Fascinating.
	You might be interested to know all the lines are loaded.
	Right?
	We'll see.
	All right.
	Again, I want to restrict all of my lines to officers of the law, firefighters, people
	in official positions who have seen things they're willing to talk about.
	Now, you can use a pseudoname here, of course.
	But we would love to hear the stories, and what we just got was typical of exactly what I'm looking for.
	Now, there's no question about it.
	I believed every word that man said.
	How about you?
	From an area near Dreamland, this is Dreamland.
	U.S.
	News and World Report says the Justice Department has offered a deal to Clinton friend Charlie Tree.
	Connie Rahn tells us more.
	There are reports the Justice Department has given an ultimatum to Charlie Tree.
	It has told him to enter into a plea bargain or face the possibility of indictment.
	The Justice Department and Congressional investigators really want Tree to testify.
	They believe he is instrumental in many illegal campaign fundraising activities.
	They want him to shed light, if possible, on improper actions that might have been taken by the administration or the Democratic National Committee.
	Connie Lawn, USA Radio News, Washington.
	Two Republicans are staffing up criticism of Attorney General Janet Reno, demanding that the FBI mount an independent investigation of campaign finance.
	Reno says, despite her decision not to appoint an independent prosecutor, her department's own probe is not over.
	This is USA Radio News.
	This is Greenland with Art Bell.
	Now, here again is Art.
	You know, I should have thought of this years ago, doing this years ago.
	It took having Sue Kovach on the program to get it going.
	She has written a book called Hidden Files, Law Enforcement's True Case Stories of the Unexplained and Paranormal.
	And it never occurred to me to open lines specifically for law enforcement officers, but lo and behold, here we do it and they're clogged.
	Interesting, huh?
	I want to give Sue an opportunity to plug her book.
	This is a 209 page A remarkable book with exactly the kinds of things that you're hearing this morning.
	No doubt painstakingly researched, because it would not be easy, as you can tell from listening to the stories, to get people to go on the record about this.
	Sue, if people would like to get your book, Hidden Vials, how do they do it?
	Okay, well it's available in all your favorite bookstores, but also we have a toll-free number, and not to be cliché, but there are operators standing by even now.
	I'm convinced they actually sit there for the most part, but okay.
	That's right, and that number is 800-905-8367.
	I would think, aside from the normal person interested in this sort of thing, that actually law officers and other people who have experienced this kind of thing would want to get the book themselves, just as sort of a catharsis.
	You know, to know that others You have shared this same sort of thing.
	There is a feeling of safety in numbers with this type of thing.
	I did notice that several of the officers, they would say, well, how many guys do you have now?
	Who are talking about this?
	They use their names?
	They're all still working?
	Uh-huh.
	Okay.
	That's right.
	Sure.
	Safety in numbers.
	You're exactly right.
	All right.
	Hidden files.
	Law enforcement's true case stories.
	of the unexplained and paranormal one eight hundred nine zero five
	eight three six seven uh... fourteen ninety five who very recently nine by six
	paperback uh... you know
	excellent book actually as a matter of fact i'll hold up uh... uh... i've got a
	little studio cam here and people can go to my website so i'll
	the picture of it up there for you I've seen you.
	Oh, you have?
	Yes.
	All right.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Sue Kovach.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Yes, sir.
	You're on the air.
	Where are you?
	Yes, sir.
	Well, I'm in Aberdeen, Washington.
	Okay.
	And I've been a law enforcement officer in a civilian capacity for about 18 years.
	I'm a patrol sergeant right now.
	I'm also a State Section Director for the Mutual UFO Network.
	Well, there's a combination!
	Yeah!
	Well, a few years ago, I kind of decided that I would just go public.
	I was kind of tired of hiding.
	And actually, in my case, it's worked out as a positive thing because I think on the basis of reputation and the fact that there are people around here who are somewhat open-minded, I have it arranged now so that If a person calls the 9-1-1 line in our area and wants to report some kind of unusual phenomena, it's referred to me.
	What a great idea!
	I think it's a tremendous advantage for everybody because I think that 9-1-1 operators don't really want to deal with this stuff or they don't have the time and so this way they know that they're going to refer the call to someone who's going to Take a sincere interest in what's being reported and try as best as possible to investigate it.
	Exactly.
	Yeah, great idea.
	And I've come across this too, where there were officers who had managed to blend their regular law enforcement work with investigation into these types of phenomena.
	Exactly.
	And I really do believe that the two are completely compatible.
	And I know it's been said before, but quite frankly, I'm absolutely convinced that if the existence of contact with some kind of intelligence were the matter at law in a court, or the case at issue, that you could get a conviction or a favorable verdict in any court in the world because the evidence is overwhelming.
	And by that I'm speaking of circumstantial evidence, eyewitness testimony, and in some cases even physical evidence.
	It's all there.
	And it's just a question of whether people are open-minded enough to be willing to make the next step and draw the logical conclusion.
	And I think a lot of people are.
	In fact, someone had told me that, and I quoted them in the book, saying that they would have an easier time proving the existence of a ghost in a court of law than they would anywhere else, because you have eyewitnesses who saw it, incredible eyewitnesses, and that it would just pass muster in a court of law.
	Exactly.
	All right, sir.
	We really appreciate your call.
	Thank you very much.
	Let's go here.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Sue Kovach and Art Bell.
	Good evening.
	Good evening, Art.
	How are you doing tonight?
	Just fine.
	Okay.
	I'm a retired police officer from a large, major metropolitan city.
	Yes, sir.
	On the East Coast.
	And this incident goes back to the late 70s.
	I already had approximately nine or ten years on the job at that time.
	And we were responding to a domestic dispute.
	Uh, it was a cold winter day, basically very cold and chilly.
	Uh, when we responded to the property, when we gained entrance to the front door, the temperature downstairs was approximately 80 or 85 degrees.
	It was extremely warm in there.
	I don't want to get my coat.
	Uh, we were starting to, uh, conduct a search of the building.
	There was supposed to be some type of disturbance in the house.
	Uh, as we entered the second floor, there were, uh, numerous blood splatters all over the wall.
	When the temperature dropped, I had an extreme chill go through me as I entered the second floor.
	uh... they located the victim in the uh... second bedroom uh... there was definitely
	definitely another presence in the room uh...
	how did you judge that to be true just from my experience i've never had anything like that i
	had uh...
	handled numerous accidents and deaths on the job
	and uh... basically this is the first time i ever had that definitely knew something was in the room because of the
	temperature and the feeling apparently what had happened was um...
	she was sleeping and her husband hit her in the head with a hammer
	and he chased her throughout the second floor until she passed away
	And I guess it was because of the way that she died, or the sudden death, that her spirit wasn't free at that time.
	It was still trapped in the room.
	That would fit in with what I've been told about a spirit, and the time frame involved from the time of death.
	That would fit.
	Did you see anything, or just sense something?
	No, just sense the presence and the temperature.
	It was definitely like a burn-chilling cold.
	Yeah, that's real common also, feeling cold.
	Interesting.
	Very interesting.
	I very much appreciate your call, sir.
	Thank you very much, Art.
	Have a good night.
	You too.
	Take care.
	I'm really shocked that so many are coming forward.
	Even on the vote, I'm just absolutely shocked.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Sue Kovach and Art Bell.
	Hi.
	Hi, where are you, sir?
	I am assigned to the Clark County area here in Las Vegas, Nevada.
	All right.
	I don't even know where to start.
	I've got a couple of, I would say, maybe UFO adventures, but she's talking more about paranormal, so I've got one that I've called, just for my personal records, Miracle on Las Vegas Boulevard.
	Far away, so to speak.
	It's strange, but in a way it had kind of a happy ending.
	I was caught in an accident on Las Vegas Boulevard at Pecos.
	And when I arrived at that scene, they called it an auto-ped where somebody got and ran over.
	People were kind of milling around.
	There was a bunch of people crying and the witnesses had said that a little girl had run across Las Vegas Boulevard directly into the path of an oncoming semi-truck.
	This semi was a gas tanker truck, and it was pulling another gasoline tanker behind it.
	When I got there, the little girl had been taken to the hospital, and I spoke to the driver of the semi, who was very shook up.
	It wasn't his fault, there was nothing he could do to avoid this, and the little girl had just darted across the street.
	I asked him what happened, and he says, uh, I don't know, he says.
	All I remember was, A little figure flashing out of the corner of my eye in front of my truck.
	I heard my truck hit something and I felt my wheels, okay, run over something.
	The witnesses there said, you know, they thought that the girl was probably dead.
	So I got done with the investigation over there and I immediately went to the hospital.
	And I went up to the intensive care unit for children and as I'm walking in, I'm trying to locate the little girl.
	Of course, I didn't know who she was, but I said, you know, she'd been brought in from Las Vegas Boulevard to Pecos, and she was involved in an accident.
	She got in a run over.
	The doctor in charge kind of looked at me, it's like, you sure?
	And I said, yeah, I'm pretty sure.
	You know, we've got the skid marks and the witnesses that were sitting in the traffic light watching this whole thing happen.
	She goes, well, we've got a little girl and, you know, she's over in this one bed here if you want to talk to her.
	And so we went into the hospital room, and there was this little girl.
	She was about four or five years old.
	She kind of looked at me, and, you know, she was a little bit apprehensive.
	And I asked her what happened, and she said that, you know, she was crossing the street, and she was very sorry, and she started to cry.
	And I'm looking at her, and she's talking, and she's not wrapped up in nothing.
	She's conscious, and I'm talking.
	I'm looking at the doctor.
	I'm going, is there anything wrong with her?
	And she, the doctor tells me, no, she's perfectly okay.
	And I'm going, huh!
	So I pull the doctor aside and I say, you know, witnesses told me that this little girl was run over by a semi-truck, okay, towing a tanker, okay, that's about the same size as this truck, and that this truck was not able to stop.
	And so she goes, well, I checked her out and she came in here, she said she wasn't feeling any pain and she was talking and she was conscious and she was aware, And she says, well, you know, there's only, there's one more thing we could do.
	Let's look at her body.
	And so we went back to the little girl and the doctor said, I'm going to just lift up your, your, your, your blanket and we're going to check you out a little bit closer.
	And wouldn't you know, when she lifted it up the covers, there were the tire marks of the semi radial tire marks all the way across from midsection.
	Wow.
	I asked the little girl, I says, you don't feel any pain?
	She goes, no.
	You need to remember what happened.
	She goes, well, you know, my friend started to cross the street, and I decided to follow him, and all the cars were stopped, and when I got into the turn lane, you know, there was this big truck coming at me, and it hit me, but she didn't feel any pain, and she says that as she fell on the ground, she felt something go on top of her, telling her, don't be scared, I'm your guardian angel, I won't let anything happen to you.
	And all she remembers is this huge truck with all these wheels going over her and not feeling any pain.
	Wow, that's amazing.
	Those are, you know, there's a couple of things I want to talk about.
	That's one of them because it's documented.
	That's similar to one I have.
	What's that?
	That's very similar to a story I have of an officer finding a child who had been missing and there was something, the ghost of the child's mother perhaps, A guardian angel?
	He doesn't know, but something led them to this child, just in time to save his life.
	So that's, uh, yeah, I've heard similar things.
	But that's amazing!
	I'd love to talk to you later!
	Yeah, you can see the marks of the tires.
	Black marks where the tires have actually bruised the surface of her skin, but have not caused any internal damage.
	Well...
	Let me ask you, would you talk about this officially or not?
	It depends if I can get the records, because if this is more than five years, and this is what they call a simple accident with no injuries and no prosecution, those records are probably gone.
	Would you though be willing, records or not, to put your name to this story for a book like Sue writes?
	Oh sure!
	I called it a little miracle.
	I mean, I've got one more.
	A big miracle!
	Yeah, that's a big one.
	I think what I would like to do is, if you wouldn't mind, Sue, is there a way, let's see if there's a way that people can contact you.
	How can that be done?
	Do you have an email address or web page?
	I do have an email address, yes.
	Okay.
	My name is one word, Sue Kovach.
	That'd be S-U-E-K-O-V, as in Victor, A-C-H.
	At CompuServe.com.
	Okay, so sukovach, all lowercase?
	Right.
	Not case-sensitive.
	At CompuServe.com.
	Right.
	Okay.
	I have a feeling you're going to be getting quite a few calls, or quite a few emails, rather.
	First time caller online, you're on the air with Sue Kovach and Art Bell.
	Hi.
	Good evening, Art.
	Good evening.
	Hi.
	Yes, I'm a Marine, a United States Marine, and of course I'd rather not disclose my location.
	Okay.
	A lot of the stories here basically revolve around a desert base.
	If you're familiar with it, 29 Palms?
	Oh, yes.
	Okay.
	This is a very unique place, and a lot of the stories here Again, unique.
	As with one of your commercials there, talking about the night vision scope, one of the stories revolves around that.
	In fact, we were out on a patrol out there doing maneuvers one night, and the radar called in to us and was saying that they were picking up moving objects within 500 meters of our platoon at the time.
	And with the night vision goggles, out at 29 everything is totally flat.
	We have hills and some terrain of that sort, but with night vision goggles we were not able to pick up anything.
	That happens quite a bit out there.
	Stories revolving around marching on forced marches out there, and some of the Marines seeing fallen ghosts of other Marines marching along with the other Marines.
	Uh, in World War II regalia, uh, Korean regalia.
	Wow.
	Uh, which is very unique.
	Uh, and we've also, also other stories.
	Now, let me get this straight in my head.
	You're, you're saying this has been seen with night vision, but not otherwise optically?
	Absolutely.
	Right.
	And the radar has, uh, has no, uh, reasoning, uh, uh, why they're not, why we're not seeing anything with our night vision.
	Oh, I, listen, I can... Radar sees it.
	Right.
	Absolutely.
	Oh, that would indicate... God, that's incredible.
	Sir, can you hold on through the break?
	Certainly.
	Absolutely.
	All right.
	Stay right there, please.
	Absolutely remarkable, because remember, night vision is sometimes used, not all the time, with infrared assistance, which you cannot... Optically, you don't see it.
	Radar, of course, is also unseen by human eyes.
	What a remarkable thing to think about.
	I'm Art Bell from an area near Dreamland.
	This is Dreamland.
	Now, more of your calls on Greenland with Art Bell.
	Boy, I should have done this a long time ago.
	We're holding all of our lines open for official types.
	Law officers, military people, firefighters, people in those sorts of capacities who have observed the unusual, the paranormal, the unexplainable.
	And we're doing this because Of Sue Kovach.
	Thank you to Sue Kovach, who wrote a book called Hidden Files, Law Enforcement's True Case Stories of the Unexplained and Paranormal.
	And you can get this book, by the way, by calling 1-800-905-8367.
	That's 1-800-905-8367.
	1-800-905-8367.
	That's 1-800-905-8367.
	And if you want to see the book, I've held it up and frozen the photograph on my live
	cam shot on the website.
	My website, of course, is www.artbell.com.
	Email to me can be sent to artbell at aol.com.
	Back now to Sue Kovach in Florida.
	Where are you in Florida, by the way?
	I'm in South Florida, near Palm Beach.
	Near Palm Beach.
	Alright.
	Did you expect, Sue, out of curiosity, that I would get this kind of a response?
	You know, I thought about maybe you might do something like that, and half of me said, oh yeah, there's a lot of guys out there wanting to get something off their chest, but then I wasn't sure.
	I'm not surprised.
	I'm not surprised.
	I guess I'm not either, except pleasantly, and what I'm shocked at is that I didn't think of doing this years ago.
	All right, sir, you're back on the air again with us, and let's roll through this again.
	A base where?
	Right.
	This base is located in 29 Palms, California.
	Right out in the middle, it's just total desolation.
	The temperature is ranging, you know, anywhere from 100 to 110 at night, certain nights during the summer out there.
	Oh, yes.
	Very hot.
	Just a hardship place for people to go.
	All right, and you're saying that you have experience with other military men like yourself?
	Absolutely.
	Using night vision equipment, may I ask with or without infrared?
	Uh, that was with infrared.
	With infrared.
	All right, and seeing images of World War II soldiers decked out as they were then?
	Okay, now that was a second-hand account from another Marine, and not just from him, but from many others who have seen I'm sure.
	Any questions, Sue?
	very interesting story that's basically kept within a lot of them.
	They don't really disclose that just amongst themselves.
	I'm sure. Any questions, Sue?
	Well, that certainly fits too with what I was told about ghosts
	liking to go back to places that they like to hang out at or with people that they were with, with their own kind in
	this case, with the military.
	That's very interesting.
	We had another incident where we were out shooting an M249 squad automatic weapon.
	We were out doing some firing one night and we were dropping, our rounds should have been going out anywhere between 500 to 1000 meters out.
	We were dropping our rounds out at 50 meters.
	It was hitting something out there in totally desolate darkness.
	We would lock up.
	There was no type of object that was stopping our rounds from going out.
	Even like a barrier?
	Like a barrier out there, yes.
	Now that really took a lot of us by surprise at the time.
	Then they had another instance out there with the Devil's Stagecoach.
	I was not involved with that, but again, a secondhand story.
	There was a platoon out marching and stated that they saw this Devil's Stagecoach, an old 1800 stagecoach, supposedly run by the Devil.
	And we chuckled about it.
	But the platoon was absolutely sure that they saw this stagecoach with, I guess, the fire rolling out from under the horses and out behind the stagecoach.
	And they took us out there the next morning.
	And the platoon sat there and said, these are the tracks.
	And there was these look-like indentions in the soil from a stagecoach just for miles.
	You could follow it.
	And that told Laura 29 poems.
	I'm sure it is.
	Would you tell these stories on the record?
	in that area or something.
	It's a very unique area.
	It's wonderful.
	It really is from what we've been seeing and told.
	Would you tell these stories on the record?
	That would be, again, being in the situation that I'm in, you know.
	Probably not.
	I don't think he's ready to be sent to Section 8.
	Right.
	Thank you very much, sir.
	Certainly.
	Remarkable story, particularly with reference to the night vision, and then radar as well, but not the human eye.
	Both spectrums the human eye doesn't see, but sensing these things in both, in one case actually seeing them.
	Oh my.
	It almost makes me wonder if cats would see it.
	I wonder if night vision should be a tool of any paranormal investigator.
	Yeah?
	Have you ever seen night vision, Sue?
	No, I haven't.
	I mean, I haven't personally used it, but I've certainly talked with people who have.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on air with Sue Kovach and Oddbell.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	Where are you, Praydell?
	I'm from Maine.
	Maine.
	State of Maine, all right.
	Yeah.
	I just thought I'd give you a call and let you know of an incident that happened to me about five years ago.
	Are you in law enforcement?
	I worked with law enforcement.
	I was a law enforcement patrol officer for three years.
	Okay.
	And in my first year, what had happened was it was like an August night.
	I was working the 11 to 7 shift.
	And what I'll do is I'll put you in a setting first.
	What it is, it was an Indian reservation that I worked on.
	Okay?
	Right.
	And this reservation is surrounded by a river, basically.
	It's an island.
	And in the middle of this town, there's an inlet to where the river comes in.
	It's like a little pond.
	And of course, the town surrounds the pond.
	And what I was doing was just patrolling the The island, doing my regular routine shift.
	And it was about probably quarter to four in the morning.
	And it was a foggy, it was a foggy morning.
	But what had happened was, I was driving along and I had seen this lady coming up from the pond.
	Basically, what it is, there was an old abandoned house down on the pond, which there was quite a few abandoned houses, you know, bordering the pond.
	But this lady was coming up from the pond, and my first instinct was, you know, I've seen an older person like that, that early in the morning, I thought maybe she was, I don't know, lost, or maybe she was off on her medication, you know, it was hard to tell.
	So I had stopped my cruiser and called into dispatch and told them that, you know, there was an elderly lady here.
	I was going to, you know, talk to her and see if she had a problem.
	So I had stopped my car and pulled it over, and I can remember her coming up to me.
	Basically, she was dressed all in white.
	Her hair was white, and her skin was white, but it wasn't really skin.
	I mean, it was foggy at the time, but I mean, I could clearly make it out that it was a person.
	But she was dressed like she had worked at a hospital, basically all in white, and I do not remember her feet.
	And basically what it was is she was floating up to the cruiser, Because I don't remember her barbing like a normal person would walk, but she was basically floating, you know.
	But at the time, I wasn't thinking of that.
	I was just thinking she was an elderly lady that needed help, you know, at that time of the morning.
	So I stopped the cruiser and basically put the car in park and she was coming up to the car and I took my eyes off her for a split second while I put the car in park and she just vanished on me.
	So at that point I knew that I had seen what they call an apparition.
	I was a little disturbed at the time.
	So I went back into the TV and talked to the dispatcher and told the dispatcher what I had seen because I had never seen anything like that before.
	Basically, I was new on the island so I really didn't know about this, but there was a legend
	that goes with this lady that I had seen.
	They call her the, I really don't know if I'm pronouncing the Indian name correctly,
	but they call her the Squagaloose Lady or the Squagamoose Lady.
	As the legend goes, if you can look at her in the eye, because she had been seen in years
	past by many different people, and that's the legend goes, if you can see her in the
	eye to make a wish, then she'll grant it.
	But I never got that far and I never did get the chance to look at her in the eye.
	Thank you.
	Now her I'd like to see.
	But basically that's my story.
	Alright, well a good one it is.
	There's a lot of that type of thing surrounding Native American legend too and I did come across a couple stories like that also.
	Really?
	Well we appreciate it sir.
	Thank you very much for your call and telling that story and I'm sorry you didn't get to stare her in the eye.
	Have a wish.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Sue Kovach and Art Bell.
	Where are you, please?
	Is this me?
	Well, only you really know that for sure, but it sounds like you.
	Okay.
	I'm in California.
	Yes, sir.
	In the early 70s, I was on a radar picket ship, and we were spying on Cuba.
	We were off the south coast of Cuba, spying on San Francisco, and one night I was down in Combat Information Center.
	These objects came out of the Bay of Cienfuegos.
	The Russians were down there at that time, too.
	I called up to the bridge, and they looked at the night observation device.
	We called it the NOD at that time.
	They couldn't see anything, but three of them came out.
	They were really bright on radar.
	Their shape was oblong, I guess like the cigar shape people talk about.
	They kept coming toward us, and we had a collision course with them.
	And I had the microphones pointed under the water.
	They were not ships in the water.
	And we had the air radar on, and they were not in the air.
	So the only thing I could figure that we could figure is that they were floating on the water.
	But anyway, no matter what way we went, we were going to collide with them.
	And we were about to go to battle stations, but we couldn't see anything except our radar.
	So we thought, well, that'd be crazy to wake up the whole ship and go to battle stations.
	So we didn't do anything.
	They ended up passing through us.
	We never saw anything, but they passed through us and just went on out into the Caribbean.
	Then I got transferred to NATO, and I don't know if you know, but right after Gerald Ford became president, there was a front page article in the Rome Daily American that said, now that Gerald Ford is president, they're going to announce to the world that there are aliens on the planet.
	And it would be in about two weeks.
	And nothing else ever got printed, but that was on the front page of the Rome Daily American.
	And then I became aware that NATO was full of these people.
	They were in human bodies, but they were not from this planet.
	And I've had a lot of experiences like that.
	I finally told the universe, I don't want anything else to do with this.
	And it quit happening for about 15 years.
	And then all of a sudden it started happening again.
	And, you know, They're not nice people.
	They're behind all this genetic engineering stuff, and last year I saw this creature they had crossed between a human and an ape.
	It was the saddest thing you ever saw.
	This thing wasn't an ape, and it wasn't a human.
	You saw this, sir, where?
	I'd rather not say.
	At a military base?
	No.
	It was here in Northern California.
	No, I got out of the Navy after three years.
	One of your guests talked about power spots or something like that and when I was in NATO I had all these weird experiences and it never dawned on me until about two weeks ago when I heard your program that I lived in a house in the ruins of Kuma where the Kuman Sybil used to be and the basement of this house I lived in was over 2,000 years old and I wonder if that was maybe a power spot and all of this stuff was, you know, Okay, well we're woefully short of time, but yes, there are absolute spots on Earth, the Bermuda Triangle, areas of magnetic anomaly, where there are many of these kinds of things that occur.
	Would you say that's true, Sue, that there are areas of concentration of these sorts of events?
	Well, it seems to be in some instances when you hear UFO sightings.
	Stay good and close to the phone for me, Sue.
	It seems to be when you hear about UFO sightings in some instances,
	there are hot spots where they seem to occur more than others.
	What about general paranormal?
	In my experience working on this book, it seems to be everywhere, quite honestly.
	Everywhere.
	Yes.
	All right.
	Did you or do you have any reports for quite some time now, and in Mexico they don't laugh about this,
	there is some sort of creature called the chupacabra?
	I was going to look into one story that I had heard about, a police officer encountered it, but this was in Puerto Rico.
	Yep.
	And my command of the Spanish language is not so good that I thought I could carry that out.
	There have been reports of that here in South Florida.
	I'm aware of that, yes.
	But I had not come across any that involved a police officer.
	Well, this Chupacabra, so-called, apparently began in Puerto Rico and then, to my understanding, spread to South America and on up.
	And as you pointed out, there have been a couple of reports, several reports, in Florida.
	Really weird stuff.
	And I have no idea what it is.
	Linda Moulton Howe has investigated this.
	The gal who gave the report at the beginning of the program extensively, but she of course went down with a translator, actually went to Puerto Rico and got some first-hand testimony.
	Pretty freaky stuff.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Sue Kovach and Art Bell.
	Hi.
	Hello?
	Nope, guess not.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Sue Kovach and Art Bell.
	Hi.
	Hello?
	Hello.
	This is Dave and Graham.
	Dave, where are you?
	In Graham.
	Where and what?
	Washington.
	OK.
	I have a UFO story that's fairly old now because it all happened back in 1960, but I thought maybe I might tell you about it.
	You might.
	Are you an officer of the law?
	I'm retired from Tacoma Police Department.
	Yes, sir.
	And what I'd like to say was that in 1960, I was living in Topeka, Kansas.
	And I was living in a mobile home on the outskirts of Topeka, and I was working the evening shift, and I got home about 2 o'clock and went to bed in the trailer that I had there, right on the Kaw River.
	And I was laying there just about ready to doze off and go to sleep, and the drapes had just cracked just a little bit by my head there, where you can see out.
	And all of a sudden, the room lit up.
	Just a bright, fluorescent green.
	I mean, just like somebody just turned on some huge light, and the whole inside of the trailer just lit up green, and it startled me, and I pushed the curtain back so I could see outside the window, and I seen this huge green thing outside of the trailer.
	It looked like it was really huge, like a three-bedroom house in diameter, and going along at a calculated rate of speed, smooth and straight, And I jumped up out of my bed.
	Now, this is in November in Kansas, and it's really cold there.
	But I jumped up out of the bed and ran outside.
	And when I got outside, I looked up, and it was just going past the tree line whenever I got out there.
	It was still glowing green like that, and I got a good look at it.
	And then I ran to the house and told my wife.
	I said, you know, you should have seen what I've just seen and started talking to her.
	I was all excited.
	And she said, well, you sure you've seen it?
	She said, why don't you call the weather bureau or the police department or somebody and tell them about what you've seen?
	I said, okay.
	So I went in there and I called a couple of different places.
	I called the radar place up down at Forbes Air Base and a couple of other places and they didn't give me no satisfaction.
	Then I called the police department up in Topeka and I was talking to them on the phone and they said, no, we haven't.
	Then all of a sudden they said, oh, wait just a minute.
	And they said, oh, okay.
	They said, can you come down here in the morning?
	And I said, well, I guess I could because evidently they got called in.
	Okay, we're almost out of time here.
	So then they obviously had other reports.
	Yeah.
	Oh, yeah.
	And then when I went down there in the morning, the Air Force was down there with the Blue Book.
	See, this is 1960.
	That's right.
	And they collaborated my story with two high-ranking Roman.
	Sir, I'm sorry.
	I hate to do this to you, but we are utterly out of time.
	Sue, we are out of time.
	It has been a pleasure, and I am amazed.
	Thanks, Art.
	I really enjoyed it.
	Absolutely amazed.
	And if you would, one more time, give the number, the 800 number, for your book.
	Okay, it's 800-905-8367.
	8367.
	Alright.
	I've held your book up and put the number up on my website, and I'll leave it up there overnight.
	How about that?
	Okay, terrific.
	Sue, thank you.
	And we will have you back again.
	Take care.
	Thank you, Art.
	Hidden Files, Law Enforcement's True Case Stories of the Unexplained and Paranormal.
	Wow!
	That's it.
	We are out of time.
	Back tomorrow night with Coast.

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