Art Bell

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Dec. 7, 1997 - Art Bell

01:49:17

Dreamland with Art Bell - Greenhouse Gases - Hidden Files - Sue Kovach and Linda Moulton Howe

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32:27

linda moulton howe

08:51

sue kovach

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Dreamland.
		It certainly is another Sunday evening.
		I'm Mark Bell, and as usual, in a moment, Linda Moulton-Howe from Philadelphia and her report, followed by Sue Kovach, who has written a really unique book called Hidden Files, Law Enforcement's True Case Stories of the Unexplained and Paranormal, including just about everything you can imagine.
		Murder guys, ghosts, voodoo, strange animals, occult sacrifices.
		You can imagine what the police run into, but maybe you can't.
		So we'll tell you tonight.
		All right, now from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, investigator into all kinds of strange things that go on in this world.
		Emmy Award-winning documentary producer, environmental reporter, science reporter.
		At one time, Miss Idaho.
		Here she is, our very own Linda Moulton Howe from Philadelphia.
		Linda, hi.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, hi, Art.
		Our Earth and solar system were in the news this past week in many areas.
		Negotiators for 150 nations have been meeting since December 1st in Kyoto, Japan to discuss how much to cut back greenhouse gas emissions linked to global warming.
		This coming week, there might be some resolution to setting a global standard.
		Europe wants to reduce greenhouse gases by 15% below 1990 levels in the next 10 years.
		The U.S. proposal has been criticized as not strong enough, keeping greenhouse gas emissions at 1990 levels.
		At current rates, scientists estimate the Earth will warm up 6 degrees Fahrenheit over the next 100 years, raising sea levels and radically changing climate patterns.
		Most greenhouse gas emissions originate from the burning of fossil fuels.
		Back in 1992, the world governments tried voluntary restraints, which were basically ignored.
		So now the Kyoto meeting is an effort to set legally binding cutbacks.
		In other news, NASA announced that on January 5th, 1998, which is only about a month away, the first in a series of new unmanned moon explorations will begin.
		NASA's goal is to build a permanent human base on the moon.
		The upcoming January launch will place a lunar orbiter called Prospector, which will circle the moon in a polar orbit every two hours at about 60 miles altitude for a year.
		Then Prospector will be put in a lower orbit at only 6 miles above the moon's surface for a close-up study.
		Prospector follows the Defense Department's Clementine satellite in 1994, which photographed the entire moon, including ice inside a crater at the lunar South Pole.
		If Prospector proves there's water on the moon, a pipeline could be laid for this human base.
		Eventually, Prospector's fuel will run out and the satellite will crash into the moon's surface, becoming the 12th piece of Russian and American wreckage up there.
		According to a NASA news release, Prospector, built for NASA by Lockheed Martin of Sunnyville, California, will not have a computer but will be guided entirely by controllers on Earth.
		The announcement also says that the spacecraft will not carry a camera, which seems as contradictory to expectations as NASA's resistance to have the Mars Global Surveyor take a specific photograph of the Sidonia region purported to have a large humanoid face and pyramids.
		The controversy about prior life on our Martian neighbor planet was also in the news this week.
		The journal Science quoted Dr. Matt Golombek, a Mars Pathfinder mission scientist, who said, quote, the body of evidence, including liquid water returned by the Pathfinder robot is suggestive that conditions had been conducive for the formation of life early in Mars history, unquote.
		Liquid water evidence means that Mars was once much warmer with a much thicker atmosphere than now.
		And recently, a couple of weeks ago, a Philadelphia Inquirer newspaper headline read, quote, NASA revisits the face on Mars.
		The spacecraft will update 1976 photos.
		At issue, an image that some say was left by space aliens, unquote.
		The article by Inquirer staff writer Faye Flam quoted geologist Dr. Michael Malin, who heads Malin Space Science Systems Corporation in La Jolla, California.
		Dr. Malin is in charge of the JPL cameras on the Mars Global Surveyor.
		According to Faye Flam, Malin said the public interest in the original 1976 Viking photos of a mile-long hill that looks remarkably like an upward staring face, quote, has been so great that NASA plans to take new shots of the face as part of its current survey of Mars.
		Yeah, the taxpayers are footing the bill, Malin said, and if they want the face, NASA should try to give them the face, unquote.
		Well, that statement from Dr. Malin surprised Dr. Mark Carlato, who was in Philadelphia to give a lecture about his Cydonia Mars research at the University of Pennsylvania's bioengineering department.
		Dr. Carlato is a senior staff scientist for Pacific Sierra Research Corporation of Arlington, Virginia.
		Pacific Sierra does government research and development, and its chief client is DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research Project Agency that works for the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
		Dr. Carlado is an expert in separating things like tanks from trees and satellite photographs using sophisticated computer analysis methods.
		In 1991, Dr. Carlado's excellent book, The Martian Enigmas, A Closer Look, was published.
		And recently, a second edition with more photographs has come out with more detailed analyses about why Dr. Carlado thinks the objects in the Martian Sidonia region, quote, were not made by nature, unquote.
		Dr. Carlado, like many others, was confused and disappointed when Dr. Malin said that his two cameras aboard the Mars Observer would not photograph the mysterious face on Mars.
		Critics frequently protested, it's up there, take a picture.
		So Faith Land's article describing Dr. Carlado's lecture at the University of Pennsylvania and her information from Dr. Mike Malin that he is willing now to point the Mars Observer spacecraft at Sidonia for a photograph was a pleasant surprise.
		I was not able to contact Dr. Malin for this broadcast, but did talk with Dr. Carlotto about the pointing accuracy of Mars Observer, which Dr. Malin says on his website is within 15 to 17 kilometers.
		Now here is Dr. Mark Carlato.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about the total change?
unidentified		Focus here should not just be on this one face.
		This face is surrounded by a collection of objects that are very unusual.
		And it's because we have this complex of objects, a number of anomalies in a small area, that's what really makes this interesting.
		This makes it the number one target on Mars.
		This is a fairly large area.
		This is about a 20 by 20 kilometer area.
		So even though you can't point the camera, I mean let's use nayland's numbers of 15 to 17 kilometers, even though you have that error, you're still likely to get it within a 20 by 20 kilometer box.
		And so if you target it repeatedly every time you have the opportunity, chances are you're going to get a fair number of photos within that area.
		And someone actually using an orbital simulation program was able to determine based on the orbital elements of the orbit published by NASA that there was a positive imaging opportunity on October 18th.
		And whether or not they took the picture, I don't know.
		Balan has only released 5% of the images.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Only 5%.
unidentified		Yeah.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Out of a total of about how many?
unidentified		About 200.
		And so we don't know what are in the others.
		I'm not trying to be serious about it.
		It could be that they're just very poor quality.
		He's just putting the best stuff online, which anyone would do.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		When you and I started talking about Sidonia in 1988 and is now almost 10 years later, in those 10 years, you've continued to refine your investigation of looking at the images, not just the face, but the pyramid and the strange configuration that some people have referred to as this complex that may or may not be something like a city complex.
unidentified		It is.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		In these 10 years, how would you summarize how your own attitude about the Sidonia region has evolved as you've done more and more investigations?
unidentified		I would be very surprised if it turns out to be natural, in short.
		I'm not saying that I'm sure or that I have proof, but there is so much evidence pointing towards artificiality.
		I would be surprised if Global Surveyor, when it imaged this area at higher resolutions, did not find further indications of artificiality.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Carlato explained there is no single piece of overwhelming evidence, but when he applied fractal analysis used in his defense work to separate man-made objects from natural, he found at least 15 pieces of evidence that fell in the non-natural category.
unidentified		The point is when you have enough of it and you put it all together and it all points in the same general direction, you can actually quantify that.
		And that's what I did.
		I quantified that working from that fractal estimate and saying all these other sources of evidence, the fields, the alignments, the detail within the fortress, so on and so forth.
		There's about 15 to 16 pieces of evidence that we've accumulated.
		What happens is you put it all together, you put it all together and you get an extraordinary amount of evidence.
		Specifically, we started off with a million to one odds against the artificial hypothesis.
		And that's, in the literature, that's a good number to use for an extraordinary claim.
		So that says you're biased one in a million against, or a million to one against.
		And then we added all this evidence in from these different sources, 15, 16 sources of evidence about the face and these other objects in this area.
		And we ended up getting numbers between 100 and 100,000 to one in favor of the hypothesis.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		But it was artificial.
unidentified		Yeah.
		What about the port?
		The port, you know, I've always kind of found that almost as interesting, if not more interesting, in the face because it's angular that it really looks like a building or structure of some sort.
		And I've actually been able to do a rendering from the side, in other words, the side view, and you really get the sense of a pyramid collapsing into what now looks like the fort.
		And so I think it's possible that these structures are artificial, that the fortress might have been a collapsed pyramid, and that this pyramid next to the fort might in fact be hollow.
		When I was measuring these objects, each one of them, the face and the fortress and these pyramids and the mounds, you can draw lines between them and you can actually do averages.
		So you're not just taking an arbitrary point in the city square, drawing a line through the mounds of the face and getting an angle.
		But you can actually take all these measurements and average them.
		And you can come up with an orientation.
		In fact, I look to the angle that I got.
		It differs only about one degree from the current summer solstice alignment direction on Mars.
		And this one degree translates into, if you want to buy into a solstice argument, based on that wobble of Mars, translates into about a 33,000 year age.
		In other words, as early as 33,000 years ago, the summer solstice sunrise would have been in line with these objects.
		And 33,000 years ago is a very interesting number because this is just during that period where Neanderthals died out on Earth and Homo sapiens sapiens emerged.
		And that's really where we, where modern men sort of came of age.
		There's a tremendous growth of consciousness and we really became who we are now.
		And it's a mystery how that happened.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Because we are not related to Neanderthals.
unidentified		We're not.
		We're not.
		There's no genetic connection.
		No genetic connection.
		It's becoming more and more of an enigma.
		The one thing I want to sort of close us with is that you have in Sidonia you have this DNA pyramid that has one face oriented very precisely to south and then you have this arrangement of objects lined up in this sort of north of east direction, like 33.1 degrees north of east.
		I have found two other sites on Mars that have the same sort of structure.
		These two other sites have a pyramidal landform with a south face oriented almost within measurement error, oriented due south.
		And they have at least one other structure that is oriented in this same general northeast direction.
		One side is about 200 kilometers to the southwest and another one is about, I think, about 500 kilometers to the southwest.
		And so this is telling you that this arrangement may be very significant.
		It's also telling you it's probably not geological.
		It's not just some set of faults local to the area.
		But we've got these sites that are quite some distance away that seem to have other properties in common with this.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And the same orientation of north, south, east, west.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
		And so let's assume that we start talking about this somewhat openly so it becomes so scientists are not afraid to talk about it.
		I think these people need to come out of the closet and look around and the world's changed.
		And most people believe in the existence of extraterrestrials.
		And most are not threatened by it.
		I think most people are more concerned with the government covering it up than the truth.
		I think they want to know what the truth is.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And I couldn't agree with him more on that final comment.
		I think we are ready to know whatever the government knows about Mars.
		And Dreamland listeners can see Dr. Carloto's analysis on the Internet by doing a search for the Martian enigmas.
		That's how you get to his work.
		And I can be reached at facts number 215-491-9842.
		That's area code, 215-491-9842.
		It's quite a time, Art, with our beginning to build a base on the moon if everything works out.
		And we're inching our way closer and closer, I think, to this issue of other life some point on Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely astounding, Linda.
		Astounding report.
		Just astounding.
		Linda, thank you.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And we will do this once again next week.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Look forward.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		Linda Moltenhow.
		I'm Artell.
		This is Greenland with Ardell.
		Now, here again, you thought.
		Once again, here I am.
		The content of Linda Moltenhale's report has got to be contemplated very carefully.
		In other words, they have determined independently, scientifically, that there is a 100,000 to 1 chance that the objects on Mars, in the area of interest Sidonia and elsewhere, are not natural.
		100,000 to 1 that they are not natural.
		Let that sink in.
		You've got to imagine that NASA can also do the very same kind of calculations 35,000 years ago, a period of time that they can't quite account for how we made the leap to become the humans that we are now.
		So the importance of that report should sink in slowly but surely.
		We may have Mark Dr. Carlotto on the program late at night on Coast.
		God, that's incredible.
		Absolutely incredible.
		Coming up, Sue Kobach.
		And Sue has, I don't know how Sue has done what she has done.
		She has a book called Hidden Files, Law Enforcement's True Case Stories of the Unexplained and Paranormal.
		Kind of a cute book cover.
		It shows a detective, a badge on the front.
		And I have a number of questions for Sue, as you might imagine.
		So Sue Kovach coming up in a moment.
		We are presently being inundated here in the high desert with what the media is calling an El Niño-enhanced storm, which more or less just means it's raining like hell here in the desert.
		However, we're going all the way across the country, and we're going to connect now with Sue Kovach, who is an investigative journalist.
		Sue, welcome to the program.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Good evening, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening to you.
		Sue, I'm really, really curious.
		Do you remember Close Encounters of the Third Kind?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Sure do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Everybody saw that.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By now.
		In Close Encounters of the Third Kind, there was that famous scene where the aircraft controller asked the pilot, do you wish to report a UFO?
		And the pilot, of course, who had a career, actually I think he said, do you want to report a UFO?
		No, and the pilot said, no, I don't want to report one of those, or whatever it was.
		They have careers, And their careers frequently hang on that kind of reporting.
		Now I would think that police would be very much like airline pilots.
		That when it really gets down to it, whether it's a UFO or a strange occurrence of any sort that would fall into the paranormal realm, they would basically say, I don't want to report one of those.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So how in the world do you get beyond that barrier and write a book about police who have seen strange things?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Well, I thought it might be difficult to get some of these guys to come forward and speak on the record, which is what they had to do for the way I had my project planned.
		And I failed at some of them.
		It took time.
		I had to talk with these guys, get them to put a trust in me that I was going to present their material in a very serious way and not sensationalize it or pass judgment on them either.
		And certain ones were simply not willing to talk even after maybe 15 years after they had had a particular experience.
		But in general, I found most of these officers were, first of all, very open-minded about the subject matter.
		And they did want to discuss it.
		And when it came down to actually telling these stories, some of them were downright anxious.
		Really?
		Yeah, and it may be that they haven't had an opportunity to really talk about it very much.
		Maybe they had to deal with a little bit of ribbing from fellow officers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but there did get to be a point where most of them that I had contacted were very willing to talk about what had happened to them.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		I'm curious, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What launched you on all of this?
		In other words, why go to law enforcement at all?
		What launched you into that area of investigation?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Well, I had been at a point in my career where I was getting a little bored with the day-to-day reporting, and I was thinking about doing a book.
		I had always had an interest in the paranormal.
		And I had been talking with some police officers that I knew, which you can imagine reporters do meet a lot of cops.
		And one of them was telling me about an experience he'd had that was a little odd.
		And just the way he explained it and the details and the observations he made.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't have a really good background on you, or if I do, I haven't found it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You were an investigative journalist for a mainstream kind of newspaper?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've been a freelance journalist for about 10 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ten years, doing no mainstream work.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Right, newspapers, magazines, and also TV producing for shows like Inside Edition and American Journal and America's Most Wanted.
		So I had come across a lot of cops over the years, and reporters and cops get to be friends.
		They do.
		Yes, they do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But when you're writing a book and you're going to put them on the record, I would think that would be the moment of truth.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, it was a matter of trust in how the material was going to be presented.
		They had the sort of feel that there would be no surprises in the end in how it was presented.
		And my goal was to simply get the stories, get as much detail from them as I could, and present these experiences with their observations on what had happened.
		And again, to not pass judgment on it, because for me it was a seeking mission, too.
		You know, let's hear what these guys have to say about these various paranormal phenomena they've encountered, because these are the people who deal with evidence and hard facts on a daily basis.
		They're trained analytical thinkers, and it's their job to solve mysteries.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they're trained analytical observers, trained to recall correctly what they see.
		Now, that leads, for example, to UFOs.
		We have this great ongoing question in the world about these unidentified flying objects that zip about.
		Now, cops, and I work with cops because I was a 911 dispatcher Sioux.
		And so I know, I work third shift, I know they spend eight hours out there, seven or eight hours out there, in the middle of the night.
		Obviously, they would have an opportunity to see a lot more than the average person might see.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Right.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		At that time of night, too, generally things are slow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's it.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		They're around, they're looking, they're looking, they're looking, and sure, they're going to see a lot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So what, for example, in that area, UFOs, have you found or is in the book with regard to what police have seen?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Well, they've seen just about any type of UFO that you've ever heard a report on.
		Everything from lights bouncing across the sky to the big black triangular-shaped objects to, frankly, one instance where they encountered an object that I'd never come across before in any of the reports that I have heard.
		And this one took place in Kentucky.
		Two helicopter patrolmen had been called to a burglary, and this was at night.
		They were to provide air support until the units got there.
		They went to the area and were hovering and waiting, and one of them noticed a light below them at about tree level, a bright orange light that seemed to be encased in some kind of a plastic covering that was very transparent.
		And all of a sudden, this thing rose up to the same level that they were hovering at and was just sort of sitting there.
		And they didn't know what this thing was.
		And then it flipped out of sight.
		And the pilot was very concerned about something being behind him because helicopter pilots don't want anything getting near their rotor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you bet.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		So he started moving and wanted to, if this thing was out there, he wanted to make sure that it was in front of him where he could see it.
		And he did see the object behind him.
		He started maneuvering the chopper around.
		And as he kept trying to keep it in front of him, this object kept wanting to be behind him.
		So what resulted was a very bizarre chase with this thing where eventually they were reaching speeds of, he estimates, 120 to 130 miles an hour.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Trying to get away from it.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Trying to get away from it, or at least in his case, trying to keep it in front of him so he could see it.
		And his observer, his partner, radioed to the ground units to get here and look at this thing.
		You know, there's something going on here.
		And when the patrol units arrived, they were all on the ground watching this going on, this back and forth chase.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When was this?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		This was, I believe, in 93.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		93.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And at some point, finally, this thing got out of sight of both of the officers, and later they were told by a paramedic who had been riding with one of the ground units that she saw the thing just shoot very, very high up in the air and then do one of these takeoff and vanish kind of acts grand exit.
		But that was not before at one point it shot something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I beg your pardon?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Something in the UFO was shooting like little orange fireballs out of it.
		And it wasn't shooting them at the chopper, but everyone, including the units on the ground, observed some sort of orange ball coming out of this UFO and just sort of gracefully arcing toward the ground.
		And they dissipated as they fell.
unidentified		How did they write this up?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Well, when they went back to the heliport, they weren't exactly sure what to do.
		This was at about one in the morning at this point.
		They knew they had to talk to their lieutenant.
		They called him and woke him up and told him all about this thing happening.
		He told them they had to do a report as they normally would.
		And they, of course, knew that the media was going to latch on to this right away.
		But he told them, you have to tell it like it is.
		This is the experience you had.
		You saw this.
		You have to tell it.
		Because if you don't, sure as anything, they're going to think we're hiding something.
		So in this case, these officers, their department was behind them the whole time.
		And they did go very public with us and talked about it.
		And it made all the wires.
		It was out on all the wire services.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gee, I wish our own Air Force would adopt that attitude.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, wouldn't that be nice to be able to get some real straight story?
		They did go back to the area because this had taken place in the winter.
		And a lot of the area they were flying over was wide open field that had a fresh blanket of snow on it.
		So they got to thinking, well, maybe we can see where those fireballs were coming out.
		Maybe something is on the ground.
		Maybe we can get some actual physical evidence of what occurred.
		But they and several of the ground units could find absolutely nothing, and the snow was undisturbed.
		So in the end, there was nothing but their observance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did they have any other confirmation of the object, like radar?
		Did they have radar?
		Did anybody else see it on radar?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the officers called the tower at the local airport and asked if they had seen anything.
		And in fact, they had.
		What the tower was watching was the helicopter going around in circles all by itself.
		They didn't see anything else on their radar.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		They did say that a couple days later, though, and this had not made it into any of the news reports, they were contacted by a UFO investigator, I believe, from their local area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Probably a MUFON representative or something.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And they met with this man who told them that about 15 to 20 minutes after their experience, there had been a sighting of a similar object in the neighboring county.
		And that there had been other sightings of the same thing.
		So there were a lot more independent sightings in a larger area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, you've got two officers in the helicopter who saw it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've got officers on the ground who confirmed it.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then you've got other independent civilian witnesses who also saw it.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		In several counties around it, it turned out.
		And they also got a phone call from a retired police helicopter pilot who told them that years before he had seen something very similar while he was out flying.
		But it was a very strange sounding object, not like anything I'd ever heard.
		It wasn't this disc-shaped thing that people talk about.
		It wasn't the black triangle.
		Just this very strange orange light encased in some kind of a transparent covering.
		Very odd.
		I've not come across that anywhere else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, very odd indeed.
		I have had a personal sighting of a triangular black object.
		150 feet above me, Sue.
		No noise.
		My wife was with me.
		Passed right over our head.
		We stood and watched it for a good five minutes.
		And I say float, not fly, across the valley where I live here.
		And there was no question about it, Sue.
		It changed my life.
		And once you've seen something that close up, it does that to you.
		It changes your life.
		It cannot help but change your life.
		You know there are things going on out there for which there are no conventional explanations.
		So I presume that was my big sighting, one of them.
		I've had two in my life.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I would love to see something like that.
		Would you?
		Yes, I would.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would say be careful what you wish for in the sense that it does change you, and you go from being objectively distant in what you report to understanding that it's absolutely real, and that's a little bit of a difference.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, I take it that you've had other people reporting these triangular objects.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Yes, actually, there are a number of sightings of triangular objects here in Florida.
		That seems to be the object of choice for this state.
		But I did talk to a police officer in North Florida who had had quite an experience with one of these.
		And as you say, it's a major force in changing one's life, and that certainly happened with this fellow.
		He had been out on Special Patrol, this was in 93 after Hurricane Andrew, but there had been some other big storms of Hurricane Force at that time.
		And this was north of Tampa along the coast.
		And the storm had been so bad that a lot of the coastal areas residents had been evacuated.
		So this is what he was doing, was going into these areas and just offering support or keeping an eye on things.
		And he was by himself.
		The storms had gone.
		It was night, very clear, actually a nice night.
		He was just poking along, driving back toward town and had his windows down and happened to notice some lights through the trees that at first he thought it was a nuclear power plant up the coast that he can occasionally see when he's driving along.
		But suddenly he realized that this nuclear power plant was moving along with him.
		And he thought, well, this doesn't look right.
		And then just it rose above the trees.
		And it was one of these black triangular objects that he described as being about 300 feet from tip to tip in size.
		And he thought, well, I'm not seeing this.
		He actually tried to ignore this thing at first and just kept driving along and not wanted to look out the window.
		And then he had to look out again and it was still there, just going right beside him.
		And it didn't make a sound.
		So he stopped his car.
		And why he did this, I'll never know, because if it was me, I'm not so sure I would have.
		He got out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I did the same thing.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Did you?
		I guess I probably would, too.
		But then he took his spotlight and he shined it up onto the thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, I might not do that.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I don't know if I would do that either.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		And he also turned off his car and he turned off all of his radios, which later he said, in retrospect, that was a really bad idea because then I was out of communication.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, I did the same thing.
		I pulled over to the side of the road.
		My wife saw it coming from behind us and stopped the car and turned off the engine and the radio that had been on.
		And we both got out individually on our sides and stood there, transfixed, watching this thing come up behind us, and then finally directly over our heads.
		I mean, it was like it was close enough, Sue, that you could just about throw a rock at it.
		Though I did not and would not have.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess it would be a natural reaction to turn off the car and the radio because you want to find out if there's a noise.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And in my case, you could hear crickets at a good quarter mile, maybe more, and it was utterly, totally, completely silent.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doing what I would describe as about 30 miles an hour, which is floating, not aerodynamically flying.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it sounds just like what you're describing that officer saw.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Right.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		And his stopped and hovered right above him, and he shined the light on it and noticed that it was black and non-reflective.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		It had a couple of white lights, but mostly a very neon-bluish kind of light that seemed to be around the perimeter or the edges of it.
		And he stood there and just watched this thing and was very curious about it.
		And then it was like suddenly a wave of panic just overtook him.
		And he thought, I better get out of here.
		And he jumped into the car, turned on all the radios, turned on the lights, and just tore down the road.
		And this thing tore after him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		It was still beside him, but it seemed if he sped up, it did.
		Bad, bad.
		If it slowed down, it slowed down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, really.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		He estimates he was doing at least 100 miles an hour because the roads were deserted.
		There was no one there.
		And he was just going to put that baby into the wind.
		And at some point, when he was getting really concerned, he started thinking, well, now what's going to happen?
		I can't shake this thing.
		At that point, suddenly the thing just turned at a really weird angle and just cut in front of him and then headed away from him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so we're at the top of the hour.
		Hold on.
		That was a real beauty.
		That really was a beauty.
		Now, fortunately, the object I saw simply traveled beyond me and kept on floating across the valley.
		Had it chased me from the high desert, this is Dreamland.
unidentified		Public hearings start tomorrow in Baltimore and to the explosion of TWA Flight 800.
		John Seaman's niece was among the 230 who died in the blast.
		He says he'll be there for the entire week of hearings.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		We want the problem fixed.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		We don't want this happening to anyone else.
unidentified		Last month, the FBI ruled out a bomb blast from missile attack as possible causes, that leads to mechanical failure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Dreamland with Art Bell.
		Now, here again, is Art.
		Well, the latter part is true.
		The first part is not.
		We are not yet taking cause, but we will be.
		My guest is Sue Kobach, who was very much a mainstream investigative journalist, freelance, for years and years and turned her attention to law enforcement's true cases of the unexplained, the paranormal.
		Her book is called Hidden Files, and in a lot of ways, our careers have paralleled because I have done, if you think about it, much the same thing in the way I have turned my attention over the years.
		Sue Kovach, who wrote Hidden Files, Law Enforcement's True Case Stories of the Unexplained and Paranormal.
		Here she is.
		Welcome back, Sue.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		You can put me in for one of those newsletters.
		I could call right now, but I'm kind of tied up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kind of tied up, right.
		Oh, they really did a job.
		You know, they went to this glossy paper.
		I'm really proud of the newsletter.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		It's really neat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, back to our subject.
		And it's not just UFOs, although obviously I'm sure there are many stories of UFOs.
		Frequently on this program, I talk to a lot of people, like Brad Steiger, for example, about ghosts, about poltergeists, apparitions, and they may or may not even fit into the same realm as UFOs.
		I've wondered a lot about that.
		But You have interviewed officers about all kinds of things that include that sort of thing, correct?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		I came across several interesting ghost stories and Paul Dergeist stories.
		It seems that the unexplained things that officers run into are not just limited to UFOs.
		So I did look into that area as well.
		And there were incidents where actually a ghost was involved in helping to solve a case, or at least to get more information on a case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A ghost was involved in helping to solve a case.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ha ha.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'd like to see that report.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Well, this one occurred in Hawaii.
		And there had been an unsolved murder case that it was about a year old.
		And this particular homicide investigator was pretty new to the squad.
		But they had gotten a call, a report of a ghost.
		And he was sort of given this case because he was the junior man.
		It was very much an elbow to the ribs thing, haha.
		You know, go see a woman about a ghost.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go see a woman about a ghost, yep.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Interesting.
		But they did put it together, however.
		The head of the squad did say this may or may not have something to do with this unsolved homicide and gave the guy this file where he found this year old homicide.
		The body was found in a car near the airport.
		So they knew that he had been killed somewhere else, but they had never found out where.
		And where this ghost had been reported turned out to be a factory, a business that had once been owned by the victim's wife.
		And it was a clothing factory.
		And when the officers got there, it was all the seamstresses who worked there who had reported sensing a ghost.
		They didn't actually see it, but they said they could feel it.
		They could feel a cold rush of air, and he would brush past them.
		And they could also smell the scent of a particular hairstyling gel or grease that this person used.
		And they knew who this person was.
		And when they asked them, well, who do you think this ghost is?
unidentified		They said that it was this murder victim.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They sent out the police officer.
		Now, let me be straight on this.
		Based on the testimony of the people who were working there, the seamstresses, who sensed the ghost, in other words, they dispatched based on that?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		They sent them there because it happened to be a company that used to be owned by this victim's wife.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, but again, I'm asking based on nothing more than the employee saying there's something here.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Right.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Well, in Hawaii, there are a lot of superstitions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I know.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Culture very rich in superstition and ghost stories and things like this.
		Even if people don't necessarily believe in it, a lot of the police officers who work there will say that if somebody is telling them this, there's a basis for it.
		You know, that there's something that made them believe that this was important.
		You're not necessarily going to discount it out of hand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, you're exactly right.
		I have interviewed any number of people about paranormal things in Hawaii, and it's a very, very rich environment in that sort of thing.
		My wife is from Hawaii, and she knows, and we've interviewed people from the islands, and there's no question about it.
		It's very much accepted there as almost a cultural thing.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Right, right.
		And a police officer who is working in that type of environment does well to really pay attention to what the locals are saying.
		And this was the particular case where they just felt there had to have been a strong basis for this report.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so he went over there.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Right, he went there and they explained who they thought this was.
		And the reason being that this hair pomade, this hairstyling cream that they could smell was what this guy used to use.
		And he used to come by and visit the factory a lot.
		So they all knew him.
		And this is why they thought it was him.
		And there was one particular area where they always sensed the presence of this ghost.
		And at this particular time, the department had what then was a new tool for investigation, and that was luminol.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, luminol.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Everybody will recall luminol from the O.J. Simpson trial.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		It picks up traces of blood by glowing very brightly.
		Right.
		And again, this was something new for them, so they thought they would try it out just in case maybe this might have been where the guy was killed.
		And the first place they went was to the owner's quarters.
		They had gone to several places in the factory and sprayed the luminol and come up with nothing.
		But when they went to the spot where these women said that they sensed the ghost and sprayed the luminol, it was at the bottom of the stairway, suddenly they picked up traces of blood everywhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		On the concrete floor in swirl patterns, which the officer described looking as though someone had taken a mop and had been cleaning up.
		Right.
		And this had been, again, a year before that this murder would have occurred.
		And who knows how many times that floor might have been washed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		But they were still picking it up.
		And they continued to spray the luminol and found a trace that led to a wall, which when the officer looked at it, he thought, well, if someone tried to hose this floor down, there might have been some backsplash of water.
		It would have gone all the way to the opposite wall and splashed and then gone to the drain where they had seen a lot of traces around the drain in the floor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Makes sense.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		And he went up to the wall, and that wall was really glowing.
		So he started to wonder, well, what's on the other side of this wall is another factory.
		So I'd like to see what the other side of this wall looks like.
		So they went over there and found that there had been some paneling installed.
		So there actually was a double wall.
		They took the paneling off from the other side and found a lot of a substance in between the walls that looked like blood.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		And they scraped up several vials of this to analyze.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Then they sprayed the luminol again, and he said that it glowed so brightly that they, in pitch blackness, they could have pulled out a newspaper and read it.
unidentified		So it was blood according to the luminol.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		And they analyzed it later, and they had some samples from the victim still in their files.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		So now they tried another new tool they had, which was DNA testing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		And this was really new then.
		This was in the early 80s.
		And they came up with a 99.99% match to the victim.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Holy macro.
		DNA testing now, of course, has gone wild, and there is an interesting report.
		This is kind of a sidelight to what you're saying.
		According to the FBI, since DNA testing has come into its own, fully 25%, check this out, 25% of all those tested are exonerated rather than convicted.
		Isn't that amazing?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Right.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		In fact, I think I heard that there were some people who were now being freed based on DNA testing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Precisely.
		Exonerated.
		That's right.
		People, of course, they go back and revisit old crimes with new technology.
		But the implication of this is that about 25% of the criminals charged in these kinds of cases are in jail without cause.
		They are innocent people.
		That is an amazing thing to contemplate.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Right, within sending the wrong people away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah, one in four.
		That's astounding.
		I've got a newspaper article here, USA Today, as a matter of fact, if anybody wants to check November 28th.
		So they actually, they determined there was a 99-point something or another chance it was the blood from the victim.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		So now they had something that for a year they didn't know, and that was the location of the murder, which then put a new light onto who possible suspects may have been.
		And in this case, they had suspected a family member, and now they could go back and look at that again, which they were not able to do earlier because there was nothing to give them enough evidence to be able to go in with warrants and to look any closer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So now they did.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		So they were able to go back in.
		But the problem was, and it seems like it still is, the officer felt that there were people who maybe didn't quite understand a lot of this new technology.
		And of course it was very new then, but just did not really understand the DNA technology.
		They still had a problem getting anything to really happen as far as any charges or anything like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was new then.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		It was very new then.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		In fact, this was, he says, the first time the DNA was used and had a hit in the islands at that point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		So the case is still essentially unresolved.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is, nevertheless, a remarkable story, and it leads me to ask you the question that I ask a lot of people, and it's going to call for your giving an opinion, and you certainly don't have to.
		But when you're talking about ghosts or apparitions, it is central to one of the great questions that mankind has before him now and may always have.
		We may never answer it.
		And that is whether there is a life, an actual consciousness that extends beyond the one we have right now.
		What happens when we die?
		Now, there are a couple of theories regarding apparitions, ghosts.
		One, that they are actual remnants, actual souls who are bound for some unknown reason to Earth and have not gone on.
		And that frequently happens in cases of murder, in cases of unrequited love, in cases of unexpected death and murder or suicide, that kind of thing.
		And the other, Sue, is that these apparitions are simply echoes of what once was, repeating in a kind of an endless loop, and they're not really the souls of the departed.
		Do you have a theory of which you think it is?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Well, what I was told in my research is that what you've just described are two entirely separate phenomena.
unidentified		And both can or?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Both can and do, in a lot of people's opinions, exist.
		The ghost or the apparition being the person's consciousness or personality somehow surviving the death of the body.
		It shows intelligence, a consciousness, and often interacts with people.
		But the second case that you described, the haunting, is a non-interactive encounter.
		And a haunting does not usually involve a ghost in the traditional sense.
		It's more of an imprint on the environment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Precisely.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Right, the mark of a person or event that happened as little as five years ago or as far back as 500 years or more.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In the case you just described, do you think we're talking about the latter, an imprint?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		I think that case would be a ghost.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		An actual ghost, the consciousness of the victim in this case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a really, it's a horrible thing to contemplate because it implies that we can be in effect stuck here.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Well, now after, when everything was said and done in the case, they tried, but again, they couldn't even bring a suspect in for charges.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		But after all this, they never sensed this ghost again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, the implication is obvious.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is that the spirit of this murdered person wanted that evidence discovered and remained here until it was and then moved on afterwards.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Right.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		The officer said he felt that if this was indeed the ghost of the victim, that maybe now that ghost was satisfied that the officer believed him, even if he didn't necessarily believe in him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, let me tell you something.
		I do a big nationwide show.
		This is one of them, but I do another one called Coast.
		And I get email and letters from officers all over the country who tell me stories, kind of like the one you just told, only in my case, they always end up by saying, Art, please keep my name out of this, keep me anonymous.
		They tell me all kinds of stories, but inevitably, when the bottom line time comes, they either refuse to be interviewed or they say, this is for your files, Art, for your edification, but please don't use my name.
		And I just don't know how you managed to get around that.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Well, I said it took some time, and there were some that I didn't get.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		So, but I'm still working on them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so you hold on.
		We'll be right back to you.
		I've got an idea that might be kind of fun when we begin taking calls.
		Maybe you can sense what I'm up to.
		From an area near Dreamland, this is Dreamland.
		This is Dreamland with Arpell.
		Now again, here's Arpell.
		Once again, here I am, and maybe you sensed where I was about to go.
		It occurred to me about an hour into this interview.
		I'm going to give you a full range of the telephone numbers here in a moment.
		And I'm going to try something.
		Now, it may or may not work, but everybody please clear all of the lines right now.
		I'm going to do something I have never really done before.
		I'm going to open all my lines, all of them, for anybody in law enforcement who has observed or seen something like Sue Kovach is talking about.
		Anybody from law enforcement who has a story to tell, and I'm going to extend it not just police, but to firemen, civil service workers of various sorts, and pilots.
		In other words, people in official positions who have observed the paranormal in one form or another.
		Now, I may not get any calls, or I may.
		I understand that a lot of you don't want to talk about this, but if any of you are willing to talk about it, we are certainly willing to listen.
		So, once again, let me extinguish all of my phone lines for normal calls, and let's see if we can hear from any police officers or other official types who have seen and experienced some of the things we're talking about right now.
		We're about to delve into a couple of other very interesting areas.
		But if you're in that capacity, you don't have to use your real name, Sue Kovach.
		It'd be interesting to see what we get on the phones, huh?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I thought of that earlier.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Open a cop line.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm open a mall for I'm going to make a mall for cops.
		Listen, there are a lot of missing person reports.
		People end up disappearing all the time, Sue.
		One can imagine they die, the body's never found.
		One can imagine they get sick of their life, they take off, they go somewhere else, whatever it is they do.
		But one can also imagine that an awful lot of people who simply disappear meet up with something, well, something like what we've been talking about.
		What do you think?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		It's a possibility.
		There were cases that I came across where family members certainly felt that there may have been something like that involved.
		The number of people that go missing is just staggering.
		As of this past spring, according to the FDI's Crime Information Center, there were over 101,000 people listed as missing in the NCIC computer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		That's the equivalent of the entire city of Albany, New York just up and vanishing one day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just missing.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Missing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that's a compilation of all current reports or what?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		That would have been as of April 15th of 97.
		All missing people that were reported to the FBI's National Crime Information Computer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		101,000 people just gone.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Gone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's astounding.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Where are they?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have no idea.
		All right.
		Let's try a few calls, Sue, and see what we get just for the fun of it here.
		On our first time caller line, you're on the air with Art Bell and Sue Kovach.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Middle Tennessee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir.
unidentified		I'm a firefighter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And just to verify the topic, I just caught your show.
unidentified		We are talking about paranormal activity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Observed by people like yourself, you know, in official positions.
unidentified		Okay.
		Just the other day, my fiancé and I were home alone.
		It was late.
		Earlier in the day, I had been in the room, you know, watching television.
		Out of the corner of my eye, I saw something just kind of enter my room just very quickly.
		It scared me.
		It's never happened to me before.
		And there was nothing there, of course.
		And I walked around and checked the house, and no one was home.
		I didn't mention it.
		It kind of freaked me out, but it just kind of went away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		Later that night, back to the fiancé.
		She was going down the hallway and I was in the other room and she started calling my name.
		I walked where she was at, and she said that she had heard this woman talking, wailing, very distressed, not malevolent, but just certainly distressed.
		And it was very loud to her.
		I didn't hear anything.
		That's when I told her what had happened.
		I was just wondering what that might have been.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It just went away then, or what?
unidentified		Yeah, we haven't heard or seen anything from it.
		I've read a lot of spiritual books, and I've delved into this stuff, and I'd heard that, you know, reciting the Lord's Prayer can kind of clear things away, or just doing a prayer for goodwill to try to, I don't know, help out whatever it might be that's hanging around, usually we'll do the trick.
		I'll do that later.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're very nearly talking about exorcism then.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sue, have you also heard that, that when these, whatever they are, like that man just talked about, these things are present, that they can be somehow set free or moved or exorcised with prayer, that sort of thing?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Well, he mentioned the term goodwill, and that certainly is a part of it.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		But I'm wondering, was this in your home or your fiancé's house, or where was it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, he's not here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Apparently, it was in his home.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
unidentified		Okay.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		What I'm told is that because a ghost is really a lost soul, the soul of somebody who has died and is basically in denial of that death, they return to favorite places, a house, a restaurant, hotels.
		You always hear about hotels and restaurants being haunted by ghosts.
		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We have them here in my state.
		We have a haunted hotel to the north of us.
		We have, Sue, legal brothels in Nevada.
		They're legal and there's a long tradition for them here.
		And there is also a long tradition of hauntings in them.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Strange, huh?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, generally it can involve some type of unfinished business or a question or this entity simply not knowing that it's dead talking to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the police deal with unfinished business a lot, don't they?
		They deal with sudden death.
		They deal with tragic death.
		They deal with all those kinds of things.
		So it would make all the sense in the world to me that they would have more than the average person's share of these kinds of things.
		Getting them to talk about it, that's the trick.
		Wow, Cardline, you're on the air with Sue Kovach.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, where are you?
unidentified		Well, I won't get away too much because this only happened about two years ago and it was kind of highly publicized.
		I'm in Florida.
		That's pretty much it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So is Sue.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you an officer of the law?
unidentified		Yes, I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, all right.
unidentified		Not with the same county that I was when this incident occurred.
		Okay.
		Approximately two and a half years ago, I was working a 6-2 shift and 6 p.m. to 2 a.m. and it was pretty normal Thursday night and actually rolled into Friday morning.
		And I'd gotten a domestic disturbance call.
		And we were sitting up at the local shop, just car to car talking to each other.
		And I told him I'd take the call and he said he rolled behind me as my backup.
		So we get to this place that we had gone to two previous nights earlier.
		And it had been this lady had called down that her husband was beating on her.
		And we'd got there and there was no husband come to find out she wasn't married and all this other stuff.
		So we get there this night.
		Turns out it's the same lady and I recognize her.
		So my partner stays out.
		He's standing out there talking to her.
		And I'm walking up the thing into the house, expecting to find nobody.
		Figures she's got some type of mental illness or something.
		And my partner yells back, she's got some bruises on her arm.
		So I'm thinking, well, this is kind of weird now.
		This is a new twist of the story.
		As I enter the house, immediately when you come to the front door, there's a door to your left-hand side leading to one of the bedrooms.
		And I see this door kind of crack.
		So I unholster my weapon at that time thinking, you know, well, I don't know exactly what I'm going to come up on.
		So about that time, the door closes shut, like real quick and abrupt.
		So I signal out to my partner, you know, you better come on back in here.
		And he comes up behind me.
		We kind of take a cone stance in towards the door to get a direct angle of fire on it.
		And, you know, we start hollering out, police, you know, come on out, open the door, and there's no response.
		So I go ahead up and I sneak up to the side of the door.
		He's covering me on the other side.
		I twist the handle with my foot and I push the door open.
		Well, the door hit something.
		I mean, midstream open and it hits something.
		So I put my foot and kicked the door all the way open, expecting to put somebody behind and knock them down or something like that.
		And as I jumped in front of the door to get a clear line of shot, I see what I attest to be a brown figure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Excuse me, a brown figure?
unidentified		A brown figure.
		Now when I say brown, usually it's a low light situation.
		And brown is the closest color I can say it was.
		Immediately I point my weapon at him.
		And I tell him to freeze.
		And about that time, the door starts closing on me.
		Now it was instinctual at that time.
		And I shot off two rounds through the door.
		And because the door was coming in at me at an eye of an angle, I got hit by the door, which would have put me in a bad situation because I could have lost my weapon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Understood.
unidentified		So I fired off two rounds through the door, which through the police academy, they'll tell you never to fire through anything at somebody because you don't know what it's going to hit or where it's going to go.
		And I realized what I did, and I was in a state of panic.
		I opened the door, you know, and the bullet had went, both bullets, it went clean through the door.
		We shoot very hot rounds, positive, P positive rounds.
		It'll go through a car door in a heartbeat.
		And this was just a little flimsy old wooden door.
		And at that time, I pushed the door open, and there's nothing.
		Now, right in my line of fire was a big bay window.
		If I had put two rounds through that whole wall, it would have just shattered that window in a million pieces.
		Gotcha.
		so at that time, I realized, you know, well, okay, I hit somebody.
		So at that time, I turned the light on, and there was nothing.
		I mean, absolutely nothing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So where did those rounds go?
unidentified		That's my point.
		Okay, so we had to call in an evidence technician.
		Okay, because when a police officer in that county discharges fine for any reason, there's a full investigation.
		It doesn't matter if anybody was hit or what.
		So they called in two evidence technician vans.
		They went through the house.
		I mean, they even went into the parts of the house that we had nothing to do with.
		And they found no traces of blood.
		They found the powder burns on the door.
		Now, obviously two bullet holes.
		But they searched outside, figuring, well, maybe it cricked through one of the seals in the window or something.
		Lucky shot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nothing.
unidentified		And at that point in time, it began going through the department.
		I had to file this paperwork.
		And I didn't really know what to say in the paperwork.
		I'm sure.
		And then I went through a review board and they're screaming and hollering at me.
		Do I commonly shoot and not know what I'm shooting at?
		And all this other stuff.
		But I'll swear to the day I'm out of law enforcement that what I saw standing in that doorway or behind that door was a figure, a brown figure, what I would testify to be a human figure.
		And you pointed out my point too.
		I hit that door.
		The rounds blew clean through that door.
		Where did those bullets go?
		Because nobody to this day has been able to tell me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a doozy.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Wow, they've never found the rounds.
unidentified		Never found the rounds.
unidentified		Now, I found the cases that jumped out of my gun.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But not the rounds.
		Never, ever the slugs.
		Holy mackerel.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Did you ever get called back to that house again?
unidentified		At that night, I had been placed on it.
		After that night, I've been placed on administrative leave for five days.
		And they had, you know, went through the civil review board, and then it leaked into the papers and everything like that.
		So they told me they'd keep me on.
		They'd move me to a desk job.
		And I said, look, I put this badge on to work the streets.
		So I, at that time, resigned and went immediately a week later to work for another county in Florida.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is a remarkable story.
		Ask and you shall receive.
		Sir, I really, really appreciate your coming forward with that.
		I take it to this day you remain in law enforcement.
unidentified		I am in law enforcement, and I can promise you this.
unidentified		I carry a flashlight everywhere I go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't in any way mean to be funny when I say this, but is this story still haunting you?
unidentified		Is it following you?
		Well, I can tell you this.
		I've drawn my weapon since then on two individuals, and I've shot one individual, not killing him, but I'll tell you this.
		The instance where I hit that individual and I saw him go down, okay, and I knew that his life was in jeopardy, bothered me.
		But the incident where I shot my weapon, what I still to this day believe those two rounds impacted somebody or something, it bothers me not knowing what they hit and where they went.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it does.
		What I meant was, does this story follow you from county to county?
		Is it sort of one of those things that hangs around your neck?
unidentified		Well, police officers, commonly, anybody will tell you that works in law enforcement or has worked in law enforcement, they have a real kind of a sadistic sense of humor.
		They are sadistic.
		And I do get the poltergeist police jokes here and there and stuff like that, round them up, ghostbust them and stuff like that.
		But most of the guys I work with now are real good and understanding about it.
		But no, I mean, verbally or physically, no, it does not follow me in my job.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you tell your story to somebody who would document it or would that have to wait until you retired?
unidentified		Well, I'm fully invested in retirement right now.
unidentified		But my thing about it is I worked long and hard to get where I'm at towards a career in law enforcement.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		And I'm going to stay here.
		I'm going to put my 25 years in.
		So I doubt very seriously I would let anybody, you know, my name, address, and all this other web department and stuff like, I doubt very seriously I would let anybody document that even after I retired.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I heartily appreciate your coming forward and telling the story.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Anytime, Mark.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		How many years do you have now?
unidentified		I have 17 years right now.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		I had the case of a guy in Florida who had almost 25 years and he lost his job.
unidentified		Yeah, it can happen.
unidentified		It can happen.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir.
		Thank you.
		Thank you.
		There you go, Sue.
		Boy, classic.
		Absolute classic.
		And I understand exactly where that man is coming from.
		I wouldn't come forward either.
		You say you have experience with somebody who did and lost their job.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there's a couple cases like that.
		Actually, something you said earlier struck me, and I could tell in the way he was talking about it when you said there would be officers out there who would not want to talk about their experience, but they have often a real need to talk about it.
		And he sounded like he had a need to get that off his chest.
		I agree with you.
		And the officer that had the UFO experience had told me when I asked him, would you fill out that report again?
		He said, no way.
		I never would have said anything if I had had a clue that anything like this would have happened.
		But at the same time, he felt that not talking about it would have had a real negative effect on him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course, you've got to carry that within for all those years, and that can be very, very, very damaging.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, he said he felt a lot better after he had written the report simply because he had put it down on paper.
		But at the same time, it's what got him into trouble in the first place.
		Very different experiences.
		The officers who, the helicopter patrolman, where their department was behind them the whole way, versus this guy who ended up losing his job.
		And I talked to the department.
		They denied that that experience had anything to do with it.
		But privately, a newspaper reporter in the area told me that he had been told they thought he was crazy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Sue.
		Fascinating.
		You might be interested to know.
		All the lines are loaded.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Right?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		We'll see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Again, I want to restrict All of my lines to officers of the law, firefighters, people in official positions who have seen things they're willing to talk about.
		Now, you can use a pseudonym here, of course, but we would love to hear the stories.
		And what we just got was typical of exactly what I'm looking for.
		Now, there's no question about it.
		I believed every word that man said.
		How about you?
		From an area near Dreamland, this is Dreamland.
unidentified		U.S. News and World Report says the Justice Department has offered a deal to Clinton friend Charlie Tree.
unidentified		Connie Wong tells us more.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		There are reports the Justice Department has given an ultimatum to Charlie Tree.
		It has told him to enter into a plea bargain or face the possibility of indictment.
		The Justice Department and congressional investigators really want Tree to testify.
		They believe he is instrumental in many illegal campaign fundraising activities.
		They want him to shed light, if possible, on improper actions that might have been taken by the administration or the Democratic National Committee.
unidentified		County law on USA Radio News, Washington.
		Key Republicans are stepping up criticism of Attorney General Janet Reno demanding that the FBI mount an independent investigation of campaign finance.
		Reno says, despite her decision not to appoint an independent prosecutor, her department's own probe is not over.
		This is USA Radio News.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Dreamland with Art Bell.
		Now, here again, Incard.
		You know, I should have thought of this years ago, doing this years ago.
		It took having Sue Kovach on the program to get it going.
		She has written a book called Hidden Files, Law Enforcement's True Case Stories of the Unexplained and Paranormal.
		And it never occurred to me to open lines specifically for law enforcement officers, but lo and behold, here we do it, and they're clogged.
		Interesting, huh?
		I want to give Sue an opportunity to plug her book.
		This is a 209-page, remarkable book with exactly the kinds of things that you're hearing this morning.
		No doubt painstakingly researched because it would not be easy, as you can tell from listening to the stories, to get people to go on the record about this.
		Sue, if people would like to get your book, Hidden Vials, how do they do it?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, it's available in all your favorite bookstores, but also we have a toll-free number, and not to be cliché, but there are operators standing by even now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm convinced they actually sit there for the most part, but okay.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		That's right, and that number is 800-905-8367.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would think, aside from the normal person interested in this sort of thing, that actually law officers and other people who have experienced this kind of thing would want to get the book themselves just as sort of a catharsis, you know, to know that others have shared this same sort of thing.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		There is a feeling of safety and numbers with this type of thing.
		I did notice that several of the officers, they would say, well, how many guys do you have now who were talking about this?
		They use their names.
		They're all still working?
		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right, sure.
		Safety and numbers.
		You're exactly right.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hidden files, law enforcement's true case stories of the unexplained and paranormal, 1-800-905-8367.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		$14.95.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ooh, very reasonable.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		9x6 paperback.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's an excellent book, actually.
		As a matter of fact, I'll hold it up.
		I've got a little studio cam here, and people can go to my website, and so I'll put a picture of it up there for you.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		I've seen you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Oh, you have?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Sue Kovach.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
		Yes, sir.
		You're on the air.
		Where are you?
		Yes, sir.
		Well, I'm in Aberdeen, Washington.
		Okay.
		And I've been a law enforcement officer in a civilian capacity for about 18 years.
		I'm a patrol sergeant right now.
		I'm also a state section director for the Mutual UFO Network.
		Well, there's a combination.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, a few years ago, I kind of decided that I would just go public because I was kind of tired of hiding.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And actually, in my case, it's worked out as a positive thing because I think on the basis of reputation and the fact that there are people around here who are somewhat open-minded, I have it arranged now so that if a person calls the 911 line in our area and wants to report some kind of unusual phenomena, it's referred to me.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		What a great idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think it's a tremendous advantage for everybody because I think that 911 operators don't really want to deal with this stuff or they don't have the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so this way they know that they're going to refer the call to someone who's going to take a sincere interest in what's being reported and try as best as possible to investigate it.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		Yeah, great idea.
		And I've come across this too, where there were officers who had managed to blend their regular law enforcement work with investigation into these types of phenomena.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		And I really do believe that the two are completely compatible.
		And I know it's been said before, but quite frankly, I'm absolutely convinced that if the existence of contact with some kind of intelligence were the matter at law in a court or the case at issue, that you could get a conviction or a favorable verdict in any court in the world because the evidence is overwhelming.
		And by that, I'm speaking of circumstantial evidence, eyewitness testimony, and in some cases even physical evidence.
		It's all there.
		And it's just a question of whether people are open-minded enough to be willing to make the next step and draw the logical conclusion.
		And I think a lot of people are.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and in fact, someone had told me that, and I quoted them in the book, saying that they would have an easier time proving the existence of a ghost in a court of law than they would anywhere else, because you have eyewitnesses who saw it, and incredible eyewitnesses, and that it would just pass muster in a court of law.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir.
		We really appreciate your call.
		Thank you very much.
		Let's go here.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Sue Kovach and Art Bell.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Good evening, Art.
unidentified		How are you doing, I mean?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just fine.
unidentified		Okay, I'm a retired police officer from a large major metropolitan city on the East Coast.
		And this incident goes back into the late 70s.
		I already had approximately 9 or 10 years on the job at that time.
		And we were responding to a domestic dispute.
		It was a cold winter day, basically very cold and chilly.
		When we responded to the property, when we gained entrance through the front door, the temperature downstairs was approximately 80 or 85 degrees.
		It was extremely warm in there.
		I had to unfit my coat.
		We were starting to conduct a search of the building.
		There was supposed to be some type of disturbance in the house.
		As we entered the second floor, there were numerous blood splats all over the wall.
		When the temperature dropped, I had an extreme chill go through me as I entered the second floor.
		As I located the victim in the second bedroom, there was definitely, definitely another presence in the room.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How did you judge that to be true?
unidentified		Just from my experience, I've never had anything like that.
		I had handled numerous accidents and deaths on the job.
		And basically, this is the first time I ever had that.
		Definitely knew something was in the room because of the temperature and the feeling.
		Apparently, what had happened was she was sleeping, and her husband hit her in the head with a hammer, and he chased her throughout the second floor until she passed away.
		And I guess it was because of the weight that she died or the sudden death that her spirit wasn't free at that time or was still trapped in a room.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Well, that would fit in with what I've been told about a spirit and the timeframe involved from the time of death.
		That would fit.
		Did you see anything or just sense?
unidentified		No, just sensed the presence and the temperature.
unidentified		It was definitely a burn-chilling cold.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's real common also.
unidentified		Feeling cold.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I very much appreciate your call, sir.
unidentified		Thank you very much, Art.
unidentified		Have a good night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You too.
		Take care.
		I'm really shocked that so many are coming forward.
		Even on the vote, I'm just absolutely shocked.
		West of the Rockies, you're on there with Sue Kovach and Art Bella.
		Hi.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		I am assigned to the Clark County area here in Las Vegas, Nevada.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		I don't even know where to start.
		I've got a couple of, I would say, maybe UFO adventures, but she's talking more about paranormals.
		I've got one that I've called, just for my personal records, Miracle in Las Vegas Boulevard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fire away, so to speak.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		This was a little bit strange, but in a way, it had kind of a happy ending.
		I was caught by an accident on Las Vegas Boulevard at Pecos.
		And when I had arrived at that scene, they called it an autoped where somebody had gotten run over.
unidentified		People were kind of milling around.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		There was a bunch of people crying, and the witnesses had said that a little girl had run across Las Vegas Boulevard directly into the path of an oncoming semi truck.
		This semi was a gas tanker truck, and it was pulling another gasoline tanker behind it.
		When I got there, the little girl had been taken to the hospital, and I spoke to the driver of the semi, who was very shook up.
unidentified		It wasn't his fault.
		There was nothing he could do to avoid this, and the little girl had just darted across the street.
		And I asked him what happened, and he says, I don't know.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		He says, all I remember was a little figure flashing out of the corner of my eye in front of my truck.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		I heard my truck hit something, and I felt my wheels, okay, run over something.
unidentified		The witnesses there said, you know, they thought that the girl was probably dead.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		So I got done with the investigation over there, and I immediately went to the hospital.
		And I went up to the intensive care unit for children.
		And as I'm walking in, I'm trying to locate the little girl.
unidentified		Of course, I didn't know who she was, but I said, you know, she'd been brought in from Las Vegas, Louis Pecos, and she was involved in an accident.
unidentified		She got run over.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		The doctor in charge kind of looked at me and was like, you sure?
		And I said, yeah, I'm pretty sure.
		You know, we've got the skid marks and the witnesses that were sitting in the traffic light watching this whole thing happen.
		She goes, well, we've got a little girl and, you know, she's over in this one bed here if you want to talk to her.
		And so we went into the hospital room, and there was this little girl.
		She was about four or five years old.
		She kind of looked at me and she was a little bit apprehensive.
		And I asked her what happened.
		And she said that, you know, she was crossing the street and she was very sorry.
		And she started to cry.
		And I'm looking at her and she's talking.
		And she's not wrapped up in nothing.
		She's conscious.
		And I'm talking.
		I'm looking at the doctor.
unidentified		I'm going, is there anything wrong with her?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		And the doctor tells me, no, she's perfectly okay.
		And I'm going, huh.
		So I pull the doctor aside and I say, you know, witnesses told me that this little girl was run over by a semi truck, okay, towing a tanker, okay, that's about the same size as this truck, and that this truck is not able to stop.
		And so she goes, well, I've checked around and she came in here.
		She said she wasn't feeling any pain and she was talking and she was conscious and she was aware.
		And she says, well, you know, there's one more thing we could do.
		Let's look at her body.
		And so we went back to the little girl and the doctor said, I'm going to just lift up your blanket and we're going to check you out a little bit closer.
		And wouldn't you know, so as she lifted up the covers, there were the tire marks of the semi, radial tire marks all the way across her midsection.
		Wow.
unidentified		I asked the little girl, I says, you don't feel any pain?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		She goes, no.
		I says, can you remember what happened?
		She goes, well, you know, my friend started across the street, and I decided to follow him, and all the cars were stopped.
		And when I got into the turn lane, you know, there was this big truck coming at me, and it hit me, but she didn't feel any pain.
		And she says that as she fell on the ground, she felt something go on top of her, telling her, don't be scared.
		I'm your guardian angel.
unidentified		I won't let anything happen to you.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		And all she remembers is this huge truck with all these wheels going over her and not feeling any pain.
unidentified		Wow, that's amazing.
unidentified		There's a couple of things I want to talk about.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		That's one of them because it's documented.
unidentified		I don't remember particularly.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		That's the one I have.
unidentified		What's that?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		That's very similar to a story I have of an officer finding a child who had been missing.
		And there was something, the ghost of the child's mother perhaps, a guardian angel.
		He doesn't know, but something led them to this child just in time to save his life.
		So that's, yeah, I've heard similar things.
		But that's amazing.
		I'd love to talk to you later.
unidentified		Yeah, you can see the marks of the tires.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Black marks where the tires have actually bruised the surface of her skin, but have not caused any internal damage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me ask you, would you talk about this officially or not?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		It depends if I can get the records, because if this is more than five years, and this is what they call a simple accident with no injuries and no prosecution, those records are probably gone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you, though, be willing, records or not, to put your name to this story for a book like Sue Wright's?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, then.
unidentified		Can I call it a little miracle?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I've got one more.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		That's the big miracle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's a big one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think what I would like to do is, if you wouldn't mind, Sue, is there a way, let's see if there's a way that people can contact you.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		How can that be done?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have an email address or web page?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		I do have an email address, yes.
unidentified		Okay.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		It's my name as one word, Sue Kovach.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's got to be S-U-E-K-O-V-A-Z and Victor A-C-H.
unidentified		At compuserve.com.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so Sue Kovach, all lowercase?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Right.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Not case sensitive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At compuserve.com.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		I have a feeling you're going to be getting quite a few calls, quite a few emails, rather.
		First time call online, you're on the air with Sue Kovach and Art Bell.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi.
		Good evening, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
unidentified		Hi.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I'm a Marine, United States Marine, and of course I'd rather not disclose my location.
unidentified		A lot of the stories here basically revolve around a desert base, if you're familiar with it, 29 Palms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		Okay.
		This is a very unique place, and a lot of the stories here are, again, unique.
		As with one of your commercials there, talking about the night vision scope, one of the stories revolves around that.
		In fact, we were out on a patrol out there doing maneuvers one night and the radar called into us and was saying that they were picking up moving objects within 500 meters of our platoon at the time.
		And with the night vision goggles, out at 29 everything is totally flat, right?
		We have uphills and some train of that sort.
		But with night vision goggles, we were not able to pick up anything.
		That happens quite a bit out there.
		Stories revolving around marching on forced marches out there, and some of the Marines seeing fallen ghosts of other Marines marching along with the other Marines in World War II regalia, Korean regalia, which is very unique.
		And we've also other stories.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now let me get this straight in my head.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're saying this has been seen with night vision but not otherwise optically?
unidentified		Absolutely.
		Right.
		And the radar has no reasoning why we're not seeing anything with our night vision.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, listen, I can see.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		The radar sees it.
		Right.
		But our night vision doesn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that would indicate God, that's incredible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sir, can you hold on through the break?
unidentified		Certainly, absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, stay right there, please.
		Absolutely remarkable because remember, night vision is sometimes used, not all the time, with infrared assistance, which you cannot, optically, you don't see it.
		Radar, of course, is also unseen by human eyes.
		What a remarkable thing to think about.
		I'm Art Bell from an area near Dreamland.
unidentified		This is Dreamland.
		Now, more of your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I should have done this a long time ago.
		We're holding all of our lines open for official types, law officers, military people, firefighters, people in those sorts of capacities who have observed the unusual, the paranormal, the unexplainable.
		And we're doing this because of Sue Kovach.
		Thank you to Sue Kovach, who wrote a book called Hidden Files, Law Enforcement's True Case Stories of the Unexplained and Paranormal.
		And you can get this book, by the way, by calling 1-800-905-8367.
		That's 1-800-905-8367.
		And if you want to see the book, I've held it up and frozen the photograph on my live Cam shot on the website.
		My website, of course, is www.artbell.com.
		Email to me can be sent to artbell at AOL.com.
		Back now to Sue Kovach in Florida.
		Where are you in Florida, by the way?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		I'm in South Florida, near Palm Beach.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Near Palm Beach.
		All right.
		Did you expect, Sue, out of curiosity, that I would get this kind of a response?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		You know, I thought about maybe you might do something like that, and half of me said, oh, yeah, there's a lot of guys out there wanting to get something off their chest.
		But then I wasn't sure.
		I'm not surprised.
		I'm not surprised.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess I'm not either, except pleasantly.
		And what I'm shocked at is that I didn't think of doing this years ago.
		All right, sir, you're back on the air again with us.
		And let's roll through this again.
		You're talking about a base where?
unidentified		Right.
		This base is located in 29 Palms, California.
		Right out in the middle, it's just total desolation.
		I think temperatures ranging anywhere from 100 to 110 at night, certain nights during the summer out there.
		Very hot, just a hardship place for people to go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, and you're saying that you have experience with other military men like yourself.
unidentified		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Using night vision equipment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		May I ask with or without infrared?
unidentified		That was with infrared.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		With infrared.
		All right.
		And seeing images of World War II soldiers decked out as they were then.
unidentified		Okay, now that was a second-hand account from another Marine, and not just from him, but from many others who have seen that out there on their marches.
		Very interesting story that's basically kept within a lot of them.
		They don't really disclose that just amongst themselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Any questions, Sue?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Well, that certainly fits, too, with what I was told about ghosts liking to go back to places that they like to hang out at or with people that they were with, with their own kind in this case, with the military.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		That's very interesting.
unidentified		We had another incident where we were out shooting an M249 squad automatic weapon.
		We were out doing some firing one night, and we were dropping, our rounds should have been going out anywhere between 500 to 1,000 meters out.
		We were dropping our rounds out at 50 meters.
		It was hitting something out there and totally desolate darkness.
		We would walk out.
		There was no type of object that was stopping our rounds from going out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean like a barrier?
unidentified		Like a barrier out there, yes.
		Now that really took a lot of us by surprise at the time.
		And then they had another instance out there with the devil stagecoach.
		I was not involved with that, but again, a secondhand story.
		There was a platoon out marching and stated that they saw this devil stagecoach, an old 1800 stagecoach supposedly run by the devil.
		And we chuckled about it, but the platoon was absolutely sure that they saw this stagecoach with the fire rolling out from under the horses and out behind the stagecoach.
		And they took us out there the next morning, and the platoon sat there and said, these are the tracks.
		And there was these look like indentions in the soil from a stagecoach just for miles so you could follow it.
		And that's Old Lore 29 Palms, but very interesting story as well.
		It is a very interesting area.
		It really is, from what we've been seen and told.
		I'm curious.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you tell these stories on the record?
unidentified		That would be, again, being in the situation that I'm in, you know, probably not.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		I don't think he's ready to be sent to Section 8.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much, sir.
		Certainly.
		Remarkable story, particularly with reference to the night vision and then radar as well, but not the human eye.
		Both spectrums the human eye doesn't see, but sensing these things in both, in one case actually seeing them.
		Oh my.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Almost makes me wonder if cats would see it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder if night vision should be a tool of any paranormal investigator.
		Yeah?
		Have you ever seen night vision, Sue?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		No, I haven't.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I haven't personally used it, but I've certainly talked with people who have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		East of the Rockies, you're on here with Sue Kovach and Art Bell.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, Praydale?
unidentified		I'm from Maine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maine, state of Maine, all right?
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		I just thought I'd give you a call and let you know of an incident that happened to me about five years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you in law enforcement?
unidentified		I worked with law enforcement.
		I was law enforcement patrol officer for three years.
		Okay.
		And in my first year, what had happened was it was like an August night.
		I was working the 11 to 7 shift.
		And what I'll do is I'll put you in a setting first.
		What it is, it was an Indian reservation that I worked on.
		And this reservation is surrounded by a river, basically.
		It's an island.
		And in the middle of this town, there's an inlet to where the river comes in.
		It's like a little pond.
		And of course, the town surrounds the pond.
		And what I was doing is just patrolling the island, doing my regular routine shift.
		And it was about probably quarter or four in the morning.
		And it was a foggy morning.
		But what had happened was I was driving along, and I had seen this lady coming up from the pond.
		Basically, there was an old abandoned house down on the pond, which were quite a few abandoned houses bordering the pond.
		But this lady was coming up from the pond and my first instinct was, I've seen an older person like that.
		Mad early in the morning.
		I thought maybe she was, I don't know, lost or maybe she was off on her medication, you know, it was hard to tell.
		So I had stopped my cruiser and called them to dispatch and told them that, you know, there was an elderly lady here.
		I was going to, you know, talk to her and see if she had a problem.
		So I had stopped my car and pulled it over and I can remember her coming up to me.
		And basically, she was dressed all in white.
		Her hair was white and her skin was white, but it wasn't really skin.
		I mean, it was foggy at the time, but I mean, I could clearly make it out that it was a person.
		But she was dressed like she had worked at a hospital, basically all in white.
		And I do not remember her feet.
		And basically what it was is she was floating up to the cruiser, because I don't remember her bargaining like a normal person would walk, but she was basically floating, you know.
		But at the time, I wasn't thinking of that.
		I was just thinking she was an elderly lady that needed help, you know, at that time of the morning.
		So I had stopped the cruiser and basically put the car in the park, and she was coming up to the car, and I took my eyes off her for a split second while I put the car in the park, and she just vanished on me.
		So at that point, I knew that I had seen, I guess, what they call an apparition, you know, and I was a little disturbed at the time.
		So I had went back into the TD and talked to the dispatcher and told the dispatcher what I had seen, because I had never seen anything like that before.
		And basically, I was new on the island, so I really didn't know about this, but there was a legend that goes with this lady that I had seen.
		And they call her the, I actually don't know if I'm pronouncing the Indian name correctly, but they're called her the Squaggaroose Lady or the Squagamoose Lady.
		And as the legend goes, if you can look at her in the eye, because she had been seen in years past by many different people.
		And as the legend goes, if you can hit her in the eye to make a wish, then she'll grant it.
		But I never got that far.
		I mean, I never did get the chance to look at her in the eye.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Now her, I'd like to see.
unidentified		But basically, that's basically my story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, a good one it is.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		And there's a lot of that type of thing surrounding Native American legend, too.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		And I did come across a couple stories like that also.
unidentified		Really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we appreciate it, sir.
		Thank you very much for your call and telling that story.
		And I'm sorry you didn't get to stare her in the eye and have a wish.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Sue Kovach and I Bell.
		Where are you, please?
unidentified		Is this me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, only you really know that for sure, but it sounds like you.
unidentified		Okay.
		I'm in California.
		Yes, sir.
		In the early 70s, I was on a radar picket ship, and we were spying on Cuba.
		And we were off the south coast of Cuba spying on St. Puegos.
		And one night I was down in Combat Information Center, and these objects came out of the Bay of St. Puegos.
		The Russians were down there at that time, too.
		And I called up to the bridge, and they looked at the night observation device.
		We called it the Nod at that time.
		And they couldn't see anything.
		But three of them came out, and they were really bright on radar.
		And their shape was oblong, I guess like the cigar shape people talk about.
		But they kept coming toward us, and we had a collision course with them.
		And I had the microphones pointed under the water.
		They were not ships in the water.
		And we had the air radar on, and they were not in the air.
		So the only thing I could figure that we could figure is that they were floating on the water.
		But anyway, no matter what way we went, we were going to collide with them.
		And we were about to go to battle stations, but we couldn't see anything except our radar.
		So we thought, well, that'd be crazy to wake up the whole ship and go to battle stations.
		So we didn't do anything.
		And what happened is they ended up passing through us.
		We never saw anything, but they passed through us and just went on out into the Caribbean.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
unidentified		And then I got transferred to NATO.
		And I don't know if you know, but right after Gerald Ford became president, there was a front page article in the Rome Daily American that said, now that Gerald Ford is president, they're going to announce to the world that there are aliens on the planet.
		And it would be in about two weeks.
		And nothing else ever got printed.
		But that was on the front page of the Rome Daily American.
		And then I became aware that NATO was full of these people.
		They were in human bodies, but they were not from this planet.
		And I've had a lot of experiences like that.
		I finally told the universe, I don't want anything else to do with this.
		And it quit happening for about 15 years.
		And then all of a sudden it started happening again.
		And, you know, they're not nice people.
		They're behind all this genetic engineering stuff.
		And last year, I saw this creature.
		They had crossed between a human and an ape.
		It was the saddest thing you ever saw.
		This thing wasn't an ape, and it wasn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You saw this, sir, where?
unidentified		I'd rather not say it was No.
		It was here in Northern California.
		And no, I got out of the Navy after three years.
		And one of your guests talked about power spots or something like that.
		And when I was in NATO, I had all of these weird experiences.
		And it never dawned on me until about two weeks ago when I heard your program that I lived in a house in the ruins of Kuma where the Kumean Sybil used to be.
		And the basement of this house I lived in was over 2,000 years old.
		And I wonder if that was maybe a power spot.
		And all of this stuff was, you know, come into that area where my house was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, we're woefully short of time.
		But yes, there are absolute spots on Earth, the Bermuda Triangle, areas of magnetic anomaly where there are many of these kinds of things that occur.
		Would you say that's true, Sue, that there are areas of concentration of these sorts of events?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Well, it seems to be in some instances when you hear UFO sightings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Stay good and close to the phone for me, Sue.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it seems to be when you hear about UFO sightings in some instances that there are hot spots where they seem to occur more than others.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about general paranormal?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		In my experience working on this book, it seemed to be everywhere, quite honestly.
unidentified		Everywhere.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you or do you have any reports for quite some time now, and in Mexico they don't laugh about this, there is some sort of creature called the chupacabra.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		I was going to look into one story that I had heard about.
		A police officer encountered it, but this was in Puerto Rico.
		Yep.
		And my command of the Spanish language is not so good that I thought I could carry that out.
		There have been reports of that here in South Florida.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm aware of that, yes.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		But I had not come across any that involved a police officer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, this chupacabra, so-called, apparently began in Puerto Rico and then, to my understanding, spread to South America and on up.
		And as you pointed out, there have been a couple of reports, several reports, in Florida.
		Really weird stuff.
		And I have no idea what it is.
		Linda Moulton Howe has investigated this.
		The gal gave the report at the beginning of the program extensively, but she, of course, went down with a translator, actually went to Puerto Rico and got some first-hand testimony.
		Pretty freaky stuff.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Sue Kovach and Art Bell.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, guess not.
		Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Sue Kovach and Ark Bell.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hello?
		Hello?
		This is Dave and Graham.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dave, where are you?
unidentified		In Graham.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Graham, what?
unidentified		Washington.
		Okay.
		I have a UFO story that's fairly old now because it all happened back in 1960, but I thought maybe I might tell you about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You might.
unidentified		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you an officer of the law?
unidentified		I'm retired from the Dacoma Police Department.
		Yes, sir.
		And what I'd like to say was that in 1960, I was living in Topeka, Kansas, and I was living in a mobile home on the outskirts of Topeka.
		And I was working the evening shift, and I got home about 2 o'clock and went to bed in the trailer that I had there at the Tennicord right on the Call River.
		And I was laying there just about ready to doze off and go to sleep.
		And the window, the draper just cracked just a little bit by my head there where you can see out.
		And all of a sudden, the room lit up just a bright fluorescent green.
		I mean, just like somebody just turned on some huge light, and the whole way inside the trailer just lit up green.
		And it startled me.
		And I pushed the curtain back so I could see outside the window.
		And I seen this huge green thing outside of the trailer.
		It looked like, oh, it was, you know, really huge, like a three-bedroom house in diameter and going along at a calculated rate of speed, smooth and straight.
		And I jumped up out of my bed.
		Now, this is in November in Kansas.
		It's really cold there.
		But I jumped up out of the bed and run outside.
		And when I got outside, I looked up, and it was just going past the tree line whenever I got out there.
		And it was still glowing green like that.
		And I got a good look at it.
		And then I run the house and told my wife, I said, you know, you should have seen what I've just seen.
		And started talking to her.
		I was all excited.
		And she said, well, you sure you see it.
		She said, why don't you call the weather bureau or the police department or somebody and tell them about what you've seen?
		I said, okay.
		So I went in there and I called a couple of different places.
		I called the radar place up down at Forbes Air Base and a couple other places and they didn't give me no satisfaction.
		And then I called the police department up in Topeka and I was talking to them on the phone and they said, no, we have to, then all of a sudden they said, oh, wait, just a minute.
		And they said, oh, okay.
		They said, can you come down here in the morning?
		And I said, well, I guess I could, because evidently they got calls in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, we're almost out of time here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then they obviously had other reports.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Oh, yeah.
		And then when I went down there in the morning, the Air Force was down there with the blue books.
		See, this is 1960.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		And they collaborated my story with two high-risk folmen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sir, I'm sorry.
		I hate to do this to you, but we are utterly out of time.
		Sue, we are out of time.
		It has been a pleasure, and I am amazed.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Well, thanks, Art.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		I really enjoyed it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely amazed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And if you would one more time, give the number, the 800 number for your book.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Okay, it's 800-905-8367.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		8367.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have held your book up and put the number up on my website, and I'll leave it up there overnight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about that?
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Okay, terrific.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sue, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And we will have you back again.
unidentified		Take care.
sue kovach ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hidden Files, Law Enforcement's True Case Stories of the Unexplained and Paranormal.
		Wow.
		That's it.
		We are out of time.
		Back tomorrow night with Coast.

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