Linda Moulton Howe and Sue Kovach join Art Bell to expose the Kyoto Protocol’s 15% emissions cutback demands (ignored after earlier voluntary failures) and NASA’s 1998 Prospector lunar mission, which confirmed water near Mars’ South Pole—contrasting with its refusal to photograph Mars’ Cydonia "Face" despite Dr. Mark Carlotto’s fractal-based evidence suggesting 33,000-year-old artificial structures aligned with solstices. Kovach’s Hidden Files reveals law enforcement’s suppressed paranormal cases, from Kentucky’s 1993 fireball UFO (120-130 mph, no debris) to Hawaii’s ghost-linked murder (luminol DNA match, case dismissed). Callers describe lingering spirits in cold homes, radar-invisible apparitions at 29 Palms, and Topeka’s 1960 Project Blue Book-verified UFO—proving the unexplained persists despite institutional denial. [Automatically generated summary]
I'm Mark Bell, and as usual, in a moment, Linda Moulton-Howe from Philadelphia and her report, followed by Sue Kovach, who has written a really unique book called Hidden Files, Law Enforcement's True Case Stories of the Unexplained and Paranormal, including just about everything you can imagine.
Our Earth and solar system were in the news this past week in many areas.
Negotiators for 150 nations have been meeting since December 1st in Kyoto, Japan to discuss how much to cut back greenhouse gas emissions linked to global warming.
This coming week, there might be some resolution to setting a global standard.
Europe wants to reduce greenhouse gases by 15% below 1990 levels in the next 10 years.
The U.S. proposal has been criticized as not strong enough, keeping greenhouse gas emissions at 1990 levels.
At current rates, scientists estimate the Earth will warm up 6 degrees Fahrenheit over the next 100 years, raising sea levels and radically changing climate patterns.
Most greenhouse gas emissions originate from the burning of fossil fuels.
Back in 1992, the world governments tried voluntary restraints, which were basically ignored.
So now the Kyoto meeting is an effort to set legally binding cutbacks.
In other news, NASA announced that on January 5th, 1998, which is only about a month away, the first in a series of new unmanned moon explorations will begin.
NASA's goal is to build a permanent human base on the moon.
The upcoming January launch will place a lunar orbiter called Prospector, which will circle the moon in a polar orbit every two hours at about 60 miles altitude for a year.
Then Prospector will be put in a lower orbit at only 6 miles above the moon's surface for a close-up study.
Prospector follows the Defense Department's Clementine satellite in 1994, which photographed the entire moon, including ice inside a crater at the lunar South Pole.
If Prospector proves there's water on the moon, a pipeline could be laid for this human base.
Eventually, Prospector's fuel will run out and the satellite will crash into the moon's surface, becoming the 12th piece of Russian and American wreckage up there.
According to a NASA news release, Prospector, built for NASA by Lockheed Martin of Sunnyville, California, will not have a computer but will be guided entirely by controllers on Earth.
The announcement also says that the spacecraft will not carry a camera, which seems as contradictory to expectations as NASA's resistance to have the Mars Global Surveyor take a specific photograph of the Sidonia region purported to have a large humanoid face and pyramids.
The controversy about prior life on our Martian neighbor planet was also in the news this week.
The journal Science quoted Dr. Matt Golombek, a Mars Pathfinder mission scientist, who said, quote, the body of evidence, including liquid water returned by the Pathfinder robot is suggestive that conditions had been conducive for the formation of life early in Mars history, unquote.
Liquid water evidence means that Mars was once much warmer with a much thicker atmosphere than now.
And recently, a couple of weeks ago, a Philadelphia Inquirer newspaper headline read, quote, NASA revisits the face on Mars.
The spacecraft will update 1976 photos.
At issue, an image that some say was left by space aliens, unquote.
The article by Inquirer staff writer Faye Flam quoted geologist Dr. Michael Malin, who heads Malin Space Science Systems Corporation in La Jolla, California.
Dr. Malin is in charge of the JPL cameras on the Mars Global Surveyor.
According to Faye Flam, Malin said the public interest in the original 1976 Viking photos of a mile-long hill that looks remarkably like an upward staring face, quote, has been so great that NASA plans to take new shots of the face as part of its current survey of Mars.
Yeah, the taxpayers are footing the bill, Malin said, and if they want the face, NASA should try to give them the face, unquote.
Well, that statement from Dr. Malin surprised Dr. Mark Carlato, who was in Philadelphia to give a lecture about his Cydonia Mars research at the University of Pennsylvania's bioengineering department.
Dr. Carlato is a senior staff scientist for Pacific Sierra Research Corporation of Arlington, Virginia.
Pacific Sierra does government research and development, and its chief client is DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research Project Agency that works for the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
Dr. Carlado is an expert in separating things like tanks from trees and satellite photographs using sophisticated computer analysis methods.
In 1991, Dr. Carlado's excellent book, The Martian Enigmas, A Closer Look, was published.
And recently, a second edition with more photographs has come out with more detailed analyses about why Dr. Carlado thinks the objects in the Martian Sidonia region, quote, were not made by nature, unquote.
Dr. Carlado, like many others, was confused and disappointed when Dr. Malin said that his two cameras aboard the Mars Observer would not photograph the mysterious face on Mars.
Critics frequently protested, it's up there, take a picture.
So Faith Land's article describing Dr. Carlado's lecture at the University of Pennsylvania and her information from Dr. Mike Malin that he is willing now to point the Mars Observer spacecraft at Sidonia for a photograph was a pleasant surprise.
I was not able to contact Dr. Malin for this broadcast, but did talk with Dr. Carlotto about the pointing accuracy of Mars Observer, which Dr. Malin says on his website is within 15 to 17 kilometers.
This face is surrounded by a collection of objects that are very unusual.
And it's because we have this complex of objects, a number of anomalies in a small area, that's what really makes this interesting.
This makes it the number one target on Mars.
This is a fairly large area.
This is about a 20 by 20 kilometer area.
So even though you can't point the camera, I mean let's use nayland's numbers of 15 to 17 kilometers, even though you have that error, you're still likely to get it within a 20 by 20 kilometer box.
And so if you target it repeatedly every time you have the opportunity, chances are you're going to get a fair number of photos within that area.
And someone actually using an orbital simulation program was able to determine based on the orbital elements of the orbit published by NASA that there was a positive imaging opportunity on October 18th.
And whether or not they took the picture, I don't know.
When you and I started talking about Sidonia in 1988 and is now almost 10 years later, in those 10 years, you've continued to refine your investigation of looking at the images, not just the face, but the pyramid and the strange configuration that some people have referred to as this complex that may or may not be something like a city complex.
Dr. Carlato explained there is no single piece of overwhelming evidence, but when he applied fractal analysis used in his defense work to separate man-made objects from natural, he found at least 15 pieces of evidence that fell in the non-natural category.
unidentified
The point is when you have enough of it and you put it all together and it all points in the same general direction, you can actually quantify that.
And that's what I did.
I quantified that working from that fractal estimate and saying all these other sources of evidence, the fields, the alignments, the detail within the fortress, so on and so forth.
There's about 15 to 16 pieces of evidence that we've accumulated.
What happens is you put it all together, you put it all together and you get an extraordinary amount of evidence.
Specifically, we started off with a million to one odds against the artificial hypothesis.
And that's, in the literature, that's a good number to use for an extraordinary claim.
So that says you're biased one in a million against, or a million to one against.
And then we added all this evidence in from these different sources, 15, 16 sources of evidence about the face and these other objects in this area.
And we ended up getting numbers between 100 and 100,000 to one in favor of the hypothesis.
The port, you know, I've always kind of found that almost as interesting, if not more interesting, in the face because it's angular that it really looks like a building or structure of some sort.
And I've actually been able to do a rendering from the side, in other words, the side view, and you really get the sense of a pyramid collapsing into what now looks like the fort.
And so I think it's possible that these structures are artificial, that the fortress might have been a collapsed pyramid, and that this pyramid next to the fort might in fact be hollow.
When I was measuring these objects, each one of them, the face and the fortress and these pyramids and the mounds, you can draw lines between them and you can actually do averages.
So you're not just taking an arbitrary point in the city square, drawing a line through the mounds of the face and getting an angle.
But you can actually take all these measurements and average them.
And you can come up with an orientation.
In fact, I look to the angle that I got.
It differs only about one degree from the current summer solstice alignment direction on Mars.
And this one degree translates into, if you want to buy into a solstice argument, based on that wobble of Mars, translates into about a 33,000 year age.
In other words, as early as 33,000 years ago, the summer solstice sunrise would have been in line with these objects.
And 33,000 years ago is a very interesting number because this is just during that period where Neanderthals died out on Earth and Homo sapiens sapiens emerged.
And that's really where we, where modern men sort of came of age.
There's a tremendous growth of consciousness and we really became who we are now.
The one thing I want to sort of close us with is that you have in Sidonia you have this DNA pyramid that has one face oriented very precisely to south and then you have this arrangement of objects lined up in this sort of north of east direction, like 33.1 degrees north of east.
I have found two other sites on Mars that have the same sort of structure.
These two other sites have a pyramidal landform with a south face oriented almost within measurement error, oriented due south.
And they have at least one other structure that is oriented in this same general northeast direction.
One side is about 200 kilometers to the southwest and another one is about, I think, about 500 kilometers to the southwest.
And so this is telling you that this arrangement may be very significant.
It's also telling you it's probably not geological.
It's not just some set of faults local to the area.
But we've got these sites that are quite some distance away that seem to have other properties in common with this.
The content of Linda Moltenhale's report has got to be contemplated very carefully.
In other words, they have determined independently, scientifically, that there is a 100,000 to 1 chance that the objects on Mars, in the area of interest Sidonia and elsewhere, are not natural.
100,000 to 1 that they are not natural.
Let that sink in.
You've got to imagine that NASA can also do the very same kind of calculations 35,000 years ago, a period of time that they can't quite account for how we made the leap to become the humans that we are now.
So the importance of that report should sink in slowly but surely.
We may have Mark Dr. Carlotto on the program late at night on Coast.
God, that's incredible.
Absolutely incredible.
Coming up, Sue Kobach.
And Sue has, I don't know how Sue has done what she has done.
She has a book called Hidden Files, Law Enforcement's True Case Stories of the Unexplained and Paranormal.
Kind of a cute book cover.
It shows a detective, a badge on the front.
And I have a number of questions for Sue, as you might imagine.
So Sue Kovach coming up in a moment.
We are presently being inundated here in the high desert with what the media is calling an El Niño-enhanced storm, which more or less just means it's raining like hell here in the desert.
However, we're going all the way across the country, and we're going to connect now with Sue Kovach, who is an investigative journalist.
In Close Encounters of the Third Kind, there was that famous scene where the aircraft controller asked the pilot, do you wish to report a UFO?
And the pilot, of course, who had a career, actually I think he said, do you want to report a UFO?
No, and the pilot said, no, I don't want to report one of those, or whatever it was.
They have careers, And their careers frequently hang on that kind of reporting.
Now I would think that police would be very much like airline pilots.
That when it really gets down to it, whether it's a UFO or a strange occurrence of any sort that would fall into the paranormal realm, they would basically say, I don't want to report one of those.
Well, I thought it might be difficult to get some of these guys to come forward and speak on the record, which is what they had to do for the way I had my project planned.
And I failed at some of them.
It took time.
I had to talk with these guys, get them to put a trust in me that I was going to present their material in a very serious way and not sensationalize it or pass judgment on them either.
And certain ones were simply not willing to talk even after maybe 15 years after they had had a particular experience.
But in general, I found most of these officers were, first of all, very open-minded about the subject matter.
And they did want to discuss it.
And when it came down to actually telling these stories, some of them were downright anxious.
Really?
Yeah, and it may be that they haven't had an opportunity to really talk about it very much.
Maybe they had to deal with a little bit of ribbing from fellow officers.
Well, again, it was a matter of trust in how the material was going to be presented.
They had the sort of feel that there would be no surprises in the end in how it was presented.
And my goal was to simply get the stories, get as much detail from them as I could, and present these experiences with their observations on what had happened.
And again, to not pass judgment on it, because for me it was a seeking mission, too.
You know, let's hear what these guys have to say about these various paranormal phenomena they've encountered, because these are the people who deal with evidence and hard facts on a daily basis.
They're trained analytical thinkers, and it's their job to solve mysteries.
Well, they've seen just about any type of UFO that you've ever heard a report on.
Everything from lights bouncing across the sky to the big black triangular-shaped objects to, frankly, one instance where they encountered an object that I'd never come across before in any of the reports that I have heard.
And this one took place in Kentucky.
Two helicopter patrolmen had been called to a burglary, and this was at night.
They were to provide air support until the units got there.
They went to the area and were hovering and waiting, and one of them noticed a light below them at about tree level, a bright orange light that seemed to be encased in some kind of a plastic covering that was very transparent.
And all of a sudden, this thing rose up to the same level that they were hovering at and was just sort of sitting there.
And they didn't know what this thing was.
And then it flipped out of sight.
And the pilot was very concerned about something being behind him because helicopter pilots don't want anything getting near their rotor.
And at some point, finally, this thing got out of sight of both of the officers, and later they were told by a paramedic who had been riding with one of the ground units that she saw the thing just shoot very, very high up in the air and then do one of these takeoff and vanish kind of acts grand exit.
But that was not before at one point it shot something.
Something in the UFO was shooting like little orange fireballs out of it.
And it wasn't shooting them at the chopper, but everyone, including the units on the ground, observed some sort of orange ball coming out of this UFO and just sort of gracefully arcing toward the ground.
They did say that a couple days later, though, and this had not made it into any of the news reports, they were contacted by a UFO investigator, I believe, from their local area.
And they met with this man who told them that about 15 to 20 minutes after their experience, there had been a sighting of a similar object in the neighboring county.
And that there had been other sightings of the same thing.
So there were a lot more independent sightings in a larger area.
And they also got a phone call from a retired police helicopter pilot who told them that years before he had seen something very similar while he was out flying.
But it was a very strange sounding object, not like anything I'd ever heard.
It wasn't this disc-shaped thing that people talk about.
It wasn't the black triangle.
Just this very strange orange light encased in some kind of a transparent covering.
I would say be careful what you wish for in the sense that it does change you, and you go from being objectively distant in what you report to understanding that it's absolutely real, and that's a little bit of a difference.
Anyway, I take it that you've had other people reporting these triangular objects.
Yes, actually, there are a number of sightings of triangular objects here in Florida.
That seems to be the object of choice for this state.
But I did talk to a police officer in North Florida who had had quite an experience with one of these.
And as you say, it's a major force in changing one's life, and that certainly happened with this fellow.
He had been out on Special Patrol, this was in 93 after Hurricane Andrew, but there had been some other big storms of Hurricane Force at that time.
And this was north of Tampa along the coast.
And the storm had been so bad that a lot of the coastal areas residents had been evacuated.
So this is what he was doing, was going into these areas and just offering support or keeping an eye on things.
And he was by himself.
The storms had gone.
It was night, very clear, actually a nice night.
He was just poking along, driving back toward town and had his windows down and happened to notice some lights through the trees that at first he thought it was a nuclear power plant up the coast that he can occasionally see when he's driving along.
But suddenly he realized that this nuclear power plant was moving along with him.
And he thought, well, this doesn't look right.
And then just it rose above the trees.
And it was one of these black triangular objects that he described as being about 300 feet from tip to tip in size.
And he thought, well, I'm not seeing this.
He actually tried to ignore this thing at first and just kept driving along and not wanted to look out the window.
And then he had to look out again and it was still there, just going right beside him.
And it didn't make a sound.
So he stopped his car.
And why he did this, I'll never know, because if it was me, I'm not so sure I would have.
And he also turned off his car and he turned off all of his radios, which later he said, in retrospect, that was a really bad idea because then I was out of communication.
My wife saw it coming from behind us and stopped the car and turned off the engine and the radio that had been on.
And we both got out individually on our sides and stood there, transfixed, watching this thing come up behind us, and then finally directly over our heads.
I mean, it was like it was close enough, Sue, that you could just about throw a rock at it.
My guest is Sue Kobach, who was very much a mainstream investigative journalist, freelance, for years and years and turned her attention to law enforcement's true cases of the unexplained, the paranormal.
Her book is called Hidden Files, and in a lot of ways, our careers have paralleled because I have done, if you think about it, much the same thing in the way I have turned my attention over the years.
Sue Kovach, who wrote Hidden Files, Law Enforcement's True Case Stories of the Unexplained and Paranormal.
And it's not just UFOs, although obviously I'm sure there are many stories of UFOs.
Frequently on this program, I talk to a lot of people, like Brad Steiger, for example, about ghosts, about poltergeists, apparitions, and they may or may not even fit into the same realm as UFOs.
I've wondered a lot about that.
But You have interviewed officers about all kinds of things that include that sort of thing, correct?
The head of the squad did say this may or may not have something to do with this unsolved homicide and gave the guy this file where he found this year old homicide.
The body was found in a car near the airport.
So they knew that he had been killed somewhere else, but they had never found out where.
And where this ghost had been reported turned out to be a factory, a business that had once been owned by the victim's wife.
And it was a clothing factory.
And when the officers got there, it was all the seamstresses who worked there who had reported sensing a ghost.
They didn't actually see it, but they said they could feel it.
They could feel a cold rush of air, and he would brush past them.
And they could also smell the scent of a particular hairstyling gel or grease that this person used.
And they knew who this person was.
And when they asked them, well, who do you think this ghost is?
Culture very rich in superstition and ghost stories and things like this.
Even if people don't necessarily believe in it, a lot of the police officers who work there will say that if somebody is telling them this, there's a basis for it.
You know, that there's something that made them believe that this was important.
You're not necessarily going to discount it out of hand.
It picks up traces of blood by glowing very brightly.
Right.
And again, this was something new for them, so they thought they would try it out just in case maybe this might have been where the guy was killed.
And the first place they went was to the owner's quarters.
They had gone to several places in the factory and sprayed the luminol and come up with nothing.
But when they went to the spot where these women said that they sensed the ghost and sprayed the luminol, it was at the bottom of the stairway, suddenly they picked up traces of blood everywhere.
And they continued to spray the luminol and found a trace that led to a wall, which when the officer looked at it, he thought, well, if someone tried to hose this floor down, there might have been some backsplash of water.
It would have gone all the way to the opposite wall and splashed and then gone to the drain where they had seen a lot of traces around the drain in the floor.
And they scraped up several vials of this to analyze.
Then they sprayed the luminol again, and he said that it glowed so brightly that they, in pitch blackness, they could have pulled out a newspaper and read it.
DNA testing now, of course, has gone wild, and there is an interesting report.
This is kind of a sidelight to what you're saying.
According to the FBI, since DNA testing has come into its own, fully 25%, check this out, 25% of all those tested are exonerated rather than convicted.
So now they had something that for a year they didn't know, and that was the location of the murder, which then put a new light onto who possible suspects may have been.
And in this case, they had suspected a family member, and now they could go back and look at that again, which they were not able to do earlier because there was nothing to give them enough evidence to be able to go in with warrants and to look any closer.
But the problem was, and it seems like it still is, the officer felt that there were people who maybe didn't quite understand a lot of this new technology.
And of course it was very new then, but just did not really understand the DNA technology.
They still had a problem getting anything to really happen as far as any charges or anything like that.
That is, nevertheless, a remarkable story, and it leads me to ask you the question that I ask a lot of people, and it's going to call for your giving an opinion, and you certainly don't have to.
But when you're talking about ghosts or apparitions, it is central to one of the great questions that mankind has before him now and may always have.
We may never answer it.
And that is whether there is a life, an actual consciousness that extends beyond the one we have right now.
What happens when we die?
Now, there are a couple of theories regarding apparitions, ghosts.
One, that they are actual remnants, actual souls who are bound for some unknown reason to Earth and have not gone on.
And that frequently happens in cases of murder, in cases of unrequited love, in cases of unexpected death and murder or suicide, that kind of thing.
And the other, Sue, is that these apparitions are simply echoes of what once was, repeating in a kind of an endless loop, and they're not really the souls of the departed.
The officer said he felt that if this was indeed the ghost of the victim, that maybe now that ghost was satisfied that the officer believed him, even if he didn't necessarily believe in him.
This is one of them, but I do another one called Coast.
And I get email and letters from officers all over the country who tell me stories, kind of like the one you just told, only in my case, they always end up by saying, Art, please keep my name out of this, keep me anonymous.
They tell me all kinds of stories, but inevitably, when the bottom line time comes, they either refuse to be interviewed or they say, this is for your files, Art, for your edification, but please don't use my name.
And I just don't know how you managed to get around that.
I've got an idea that might be kind of fun when we begin taking calls.
Maybe you can sense what I'm up to.
From an area near Dreamland, this is Dreamland.
This is Dreamland with Arpell.
Now again, here's Arpell.
Once again, here I am, and maybe you sensed where I was about to go.
It occurred to me about an hour into this interview.
I'm going to give you a full range of the telephone numbers here in a moment.
And I'm going to try something.
Now, it may or may not work, but everybody please clear all of the lines right now.
I'm going to do something I have never really done before.
I'm going to open all my lines, all of them, for anybody in law enforcement who has observed or seen something like Sue Kovach is talking about.
Anybody from law enforcement who has a story to tell, and I'm going to extend it not just police, but to firemen, civil service workers of various sorts, and pilots.
In other words, people in official positions who have observed the paranormal in one form or another.
Now, I may not get any calls, or I may.
I understand that a lot of you don't want to talk about this, but if any of you are willing to talk about it, we are certainly willing to listen.
So, once again, let me extinguish all of my phone lines for normal calls, and let's see if we can hear from any police officers or other official types who have seen and experienced some of the things we're talking about right now.
We're about to delve into a couple of other very interesting areas.
But if you're in that capacity, you don't have to use your real name, Sue Kovach.
It'd be interesting to see what we get on the phones, huh?
She was going down the hallway and I was in the other room and she started calling my name.
I walked where she was at, and she said that she had heard this woman talking, wailing, very distressed, not malevolent, but just certainly distressed.
I've read a lot of spiritual books, and I've delved into this stuff, and I'd heard that, you know, reciting the Lord's Prayer can kind of clear things away, or just doing a prayer for goodwill to try to, I don't know, help out whatever it might be that's hanging around, usually we'll do the trick.
Sue, have you also heard that, that when these, whatever they are, like that man just talked about, these things are present, that they can be somehow set free or moved or exorcised with prayer, that sort of thing?
What I'm told is that because a ghost is really a lost soul, the soul of somebody who has died and is basically in denial of that death, they return to favorite places, a house, a restaurant, hotels.
You always hear about hotels and restaurants being haunted by ghosts.
Not with the same county that I was when this incident occurred.
Okay.
Approximately two and a half years ago, I was working a 6-2 shift and 6 p.m. to 2 a.m. and it was pretty normal Thursday night and actually rolled into Friday morning.
And I'd gotten a domestic disturbance call.
And we were sitting up at the local shop, just car to car talking to each other.
And I told him I'd take the call and he said he rolled behind me as my backup.
So we get to this place that we had gone to two previous nights earlier.
And it had been this lady had called down that her husband was beating on her.
And we'd got there and there was no husband come to find out she wasn't married and all this other stuff.
So we get there this night.
Turns out it's the same lady and I recognize her.
So my partner stays out.
He's standing out there talking to her.
And I'm walking up the thing into the house, expecting to find nobody.
Figures she's got some type of mental illness or something.
And my partner yells back, she's got some bruises on her arm.
So I'm thinking, well, this is kind of weird now.
This is a new twist of the story.
As I enter the house, immediately when you come to the front door, there's a door to your left-hand side leading to one of the bedrooms.
And I see this door kind of crack.
So I unholster my weapon at that time thinking, you know, well, I don't know exactly what I'm going to come up on.
So about that time, the door closes shut, like real quick and abrupt.
So I signal out to my partner, you know, you better come on back in here.
And he comes up behind me.
We kind of take a cone stance in towards the door to get a direct angle of fire on it.
And, you know, we start hollering out, police, you know, come on out, open the door, and there's no response.
So I go ahead up and I sneak up to the side of the door.
He's covering me on the other side.
I twist the handle with my foot and I push the door open.
Well, the door hit something.
I mean, midstream open and it hits something.
So I put my foot and kicked the door all the way open, expecting to put somebody behind and knock them down or something like that.
And as I jumped in front of the door to get a clear line of shot, I see what I attest to be a brown figure.
Now when I say brown, usually it's a low light situation.
And brown is the closest color I can say it was.
Immediately I point my weapon at him.
And I tell him to freeze.
And about that time, the door starts closing on me.
Now it was instinctual at that time.
And I shot off two rounds through the door.
And because the door was coming in at me at an eye of an angle, I got hit by the door, which would have put me in a bad situation because I could have lost my weapon.
So I fired off two rounds through the door, which through the police academy, they'll tell you never to fire through anything at somebody because you don't know what it's going to hit or where it's going to go.
And I realized what I did, and I was in a state of panic.
I opened the door, you know, and the bullet had went, both bullets, it went clean through the door.
We shoot very hot rounds, positive, P positive rounds.
It'll go through a car door in a heartbeat.
And this was just a little flimsy old wooden door.
And at that time, I pushed the door open, and there's nothing.
Now, right in my line of fire was a big bay window.
If I had put two rounds through that whole wall, it would have just shattered that window in a million pieces.
Gotcha.
so at that time, I realized, you know, well, okay, I hit somebody.
So at that time, I turned the light on, and there was nothing.
And at that point in time, it began going through the department.
I had to file this paperwork.
And I didn't really know what to say in the paperwork.
I'm sure.
And then I went through a review board and they're screaming and hollering at me.
Do I commonly shoot and not know what I'm shooting at?
And all this other stuff.
But I'll swear to the day I'm out of law enforcement that what I saw standing in that doorway or behind that door was a figure, a brown figure, what I would testify to be a human figure.
And you pointed out my point too.
I hit that door.
The rounds blew clean through that door.
Where did those bullets go?
Because nobody to this day has been able to tell me.
I don't in any way mean to be funny when I say this, but is this story still haunting you?
unidentified
Is it following you?
Well, I can tell you this.
I've drawn my weapon since then on two individuals, and I've shot one individual, not killing him, but I'll tell you this.
The instance where I hit that individual and I saw him go down, okay, and I knew that his life was in jeopardy, bothered me.
But the incident where I shot my weapon, what I still to this day believe those two rounds impacted somebody or something, it bothers me not knowing what they hit and where they went.
What I meant was, does this story follow you from county to county?
Is it sort of one of those things that hangs around your neck?
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Well, police officers, commonly, anybody will tell you that works in law enforcement or has worked in law enforcement, they have a real kind of a sadistic sense of humor.
They are sadistic.
And I do get the poltergeist police jokes here and there and stuff like that, round them up, ghostbust them and stuff like that.
But most of the guys I work with now are real good and understanding about it.
But no, I mean, verbally or physically, no, it does not follow me in my job.
So I doubt very seriously I would let anybody, you know, my name, address, and all this other web department and stuff like, I doubt very seriously I would let anybody document that even after I retired.
Actually, something you said earlier struck me, and I could tell in the way he was talking about it when you said there would be officers out there who would not want to talk about their experience, but they have often a real need to talk about it.
And he sounded like he had a need to get that off his chest.
I agree with you.
And the officer that had the UFO experience had told me when I asked him, would you fill out that report again?
He said, no way.
I never would have said anything if I had had a clue that anything like this would have happened.
But at the same time, he felt that not talking about it would have had a real negative effect on him.
Again, I want to restrict All of my lines to officers of the law, firefighters, people in official positions who have seen things they're willing to talk about.
Now, you can use a pseudonym here, of course, but we would love to hear the stories.
And what we just got was typical of exactly what I'm looking for.
Now, there's no question about it.
I believed every word that man said.
How about you?
From an area near Dreamland, this is Dreamland.
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U.S. News and World Report says the Justice Department has offered a deal to Clinton friend Charlie Tree.
There are reports the Justice Department has given an ultimatum to Charlie Tree.
It has told him to enter into a plea bargain or face the possibility of indictment.
The Justice Department and congressional investigators really want Tree to testify.
They believe he is instrumental in many illegal campaign fundraising activities.
They want him to shed light, if possible, on improper actions that might have been taken by the administration or the Democratic National Committee.
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County law on USA Radio News, Washington.
Key Republicans are stepping up criticism of Attorney General Janet Reno demanding that the FBI mount an independent investigation of campaign finance.
Reno says, despite her decision not to appoint an independent prosecutor, her department's own probe is not over.
You know, I should have thought of this years ago, doing this years ago.
It took having Sue Kovach on the program to get it going.
She has written a book called Hidden Files, Law Enforcement's True Case Stories of the Unexplained and Paranormal.
And it never occurred to me to open lines specifically for law enforcement officers, but lo and behold, here we do it, and they're clogged.
Interesting, huh?
I want to give Sue an opportunity to plug her book.
This is a 209-page, remarkable book with exactly the kinds of things that you're hearing this morning.
No doubt painstakingly researched because it would not be easy, as you can tell from listening to the stories, to get people to go on the record about this.
Sue, if people would like to get your book, Hidden Vials, how do they do it?
Okay, well, it's available in all your favorite bookstores, but also we have a toll-free number, and not to be cliché, but there are operators standing by even now.
I would think, aside from the normal person interested in this sort of thing, that actually law officers and other people who have experienced this kind of thing would want to get the book themselves just as sort of a catharsis, you know, to know that others have shared this same sort of thing.
Well, a few years ago, I kind of decided that I would just go public because I was kind of tired of hiding.
And actually, in my case, it's worked out as a positive thing because I think on the basis of reputation and the fact that there are people around here who are somewhat open-minded, I have it arranged now so that if a person calls the 911 line in our area and wants to report some kind of unusual phenomena, it's referred to me.
I think it's a tremendous advantage for everybody because I think that 911 operators don't really want to deal with this stuff or they don't have the time.
And so this way they know that they're going to refer the call to someone who's going to take a sincere interest in what's being reported and try as best as possible to investigate it.
And I've come across this too, where there were officers who had managed to blend their regular law enforcement work with investigation into these types of phenomena.
And I really do believe that the two are completely compatible.
And I know it's been said before, but quite frankly, I'm absolutely convinced that if the existence of contact with some kind of intelligence were the matter at law in a court or the case at issue, that you could get a conviction or a favorable verdict in any court in the world because the evidence is overwhelming.
And by that, I'm speaking of circumstantial evidence, eyewitness testimony, and in some cases even physical evidence.
It's all there.
And it's just a question of whether people are open-minded enough to be willing to make the next step and draw the logical conclusion.
Yeah, and in fact, someone had told me that, and I quoted them in the book, saying that they would have an easier time proving the existence of a ghost in a court of law than they would anywhere else, because you have eyewitnesses who saw it, and incredible eyewitnesses, and that it would just pass muster in a court of law.
Just from my experience, I've never had anything like that.
I had handled numerous accidents and deaths on the job.
And basically, this is the first time I ever had that.
Definitely knew something was in the room because of the temperature and the feeling.
Apparently, what had happened was she was sleeping, and her husband hit her in the head with a hammer, and he chased her throughout the second floor until she passed away.
And I guess it was because of the weight that she died or the sudden death that her spirit wasn't free at that time or was still trapped in a room.
There was a bunch of people crying, and the witnesses had said that a little girl had run across Las Vegas Boulevard directly into the path of an oncoming semi truck.
This semi was a gas tanker truck, and it was pulling another gasoline tanker behind it.
When I got there, the little girl had been taken to the hospital, and I spoke to the driver of the semi, who was very shook up.
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It wasn't his fault.
There was nothing he could do to avoid this, and the little girl had just darted across the street.
And I asked him what happened, and he says, I don't know.
And the doctor tells me, no, she's perfectly okay.
And I'm going, huh.
So I pull the doctor aside and I say, you know, witnesses told me that this little girl was run over by a semi truck, okay, towing a tanker, okay, that's about the same size as this truck, and that this truck is not able to stop.
And so she goes, well, I've checked around and she came in here.
She said she wasn't feeling any pain and she was talking and she was conscious and she was aware.
And she says, well, you know, there's one more thing we could do.
Let's look at her body.
And so we went back to the little girl and the doctor said, I'm going to just lift up your blanket and we're going to check you out a little bit closer.
And wouldn't you know, so as she lifted up the covers, there were the tire marks of the semi, radial tire marks all the way across her midsection.
Wow.
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I asked the little girl, I says, you don't feel any pain?
It depends if I can get the records, because if this is more than five years, and this is what they call a simple accident with no injuries and no prosecution, those records are probably gone.
This is a very unique place, and a lot of the stories here are, again, unique.
As with one of your commercials there, talking about the night vision scope, one of the stories revolves around that.
In fact, we were out on a patrol out there doing maneuvers one night and the radar called into us and was saying that they were picking up moving objects within 500 meters of our platoon at the time.
And with the night vision goggles, out at 29 everything is totally flat, right?
We have uphills and some train of that sort.
But with night vision goggles, we were not able to pick up anything.
That happens quite a bit out there.
Stories revolving around marching on forced marches out there, and some of the Marines seeing fallen ghosts of other Marines marching along with the other Marines in World War II regalia, Korean regalia, which is very unique.
Absolutely remarkable because remember, night vision is sometimes used, not all the time, with infrared assistance, which you cannot, optically, you don't see it.
Radar, of course, is also unseen by human eyes.
What a remarkable thing to think about.
I'm Art Bell from an area near Dreamland.
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This is Dreamland.
Now, more of your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
We're holding all of our lines open for official types, law officers, military people, firefighters, people in those sorts of capacities who have observed the unusual, the paranormal, the unexplainable.
And we're doing this because of Sue Kovach.
Thank you to Sue Kovach, who wrote a book called Hidden Files, Law Enforcement's True Case Stories of the Unexplained and Paranormal.
And you can get this book, by the way, by calling 1-800-905-8367.
That's 1-800-905-8367.
And if you want to see the book, I've held it up and frozen the photograph on my live Cam shot on the website.
You know, I thought about maybe you might do something like that, and half of me said, oh, yeah, there's a lot of guys out there wanting to get something off their chest.
And seeing images of World War II soldiers decked out as they were then.
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Okay, now that was a second-hand account from another Marine, and not just from him, but from many others who have seen that out there on their marches.
Very interesting story that's basically kept within a lot of them.
They don't really disclose that just amongst themselves.
Well, that certainly fits, too, with what I was told about ghosts liking to go back to places that they like to hang out at or with people that they were with, with their own kind in this case, with the military.
That's very interesting.
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We had another incident where we were out shooting an M249 squad automatic weapon.
We were out doing some firing one night, and we were dropping, our rounds should have been going out anywhere between 500 to 1,000 meters out.
We were dropping our rounds out at 50 meters.
It was hitting something out there and totally desolate darkness.
We would walk out.
There was no type of object that was stopping our rounds from going out.
Now that really took a lot of us by surprise at the time.
And then they had another instance out there with the devil stagecoach.
I was not involved with that, but again, a secondhand story.
There was a platoon out marching and stated that they saw this devil stagecoach, an old 1800 stagecoach supposedly run by the devil.
And we chuckled about it, but the platoon was absolutely sure that they saw this stagecoach with the fire rolling out from under the horses and out behind the stagecoach.
And they took us out there the next morning, and the platoon sat there and said, these are the tracks.
And there was these look like indentions in the soil from a stagecoach just for miles so you could follow it.
And that's Old Lore 29 Palms, but very interesting story as well.
I was law enforcement patrol officer for three years.
Okay.
And in my first year, what had happened was it was like an August night.
I was working the 11 to 7 shift.
And what I'll do is I'll put you in a setting first.
What it is, it was an Indian reservation that I worked on.
And this reservation is surrounded by a river, basically.
It's an island.
And in the middle of this town, there's an inlet to where the river comes in.
It's like a little pond.
And of course, the town surrounds the pond.
And what I was doing is just patrolling the island, doing my regular routine shift.
And it was about probably quarter or four in the morning.
And it was a foggy morning.
But what had happened was I was driving along, and I had seen this lady coming up from the pond.
Basically, there was an old abandoned house down on the pond, which were quite a few abandoned houses bordering the pond.
But this lady was coming up from the pond and my first instinct was, I've seen an older person like that.
Mad early in the morning.
I thought maybe she was, I don't know, lost or maybe she was off on her medication, you know, it was hard to tell.
So I had stopped my cruiser and called them to dispatch and told them that, you know, there was an elderly lady here.
I was going to, you know, talk to her and see if she had a problem.
So I had stopped my car and pulled it over and I can remember her coming up to me.
And basically, she was dressed all in white.
Her hair was white and her skin was white, but it wasn't really skin.
I mean, it was foggy at the time, but I mean, I could clearly make it out that it was a person.
But she was dressed like she had worked at a hospital, basically all in white.
And I do not remember her feet.
And basically what it was is she was floating up to the cruiser, because I don't remember her bargaining like a normal person would walk, but she was basically floating, you know.
But at the time, I wasn't thinking of that.
I was just thinking she was an elderly lady that needed help, you know, at that time of the morning.
So I had stopped the cruiser and basically put the car in the park, and she was coming up to the car, and I took my eyes off her for a split second while I put the car in the park, and she just vanished on me.
So at that point, I knew that I had seen, I guess, what they call an apparition, you know, and I was a little disturbed at the time.
So I had went back into the TD and talked to the dispatcher and told the dispatcher what I had seen, because I had never seen anything like that before.
And basically, I was new on the island, so I really didn't know about this, but there was a legend that goes with this lady that I had seen.
And they call her the, I actually don't know if I'm pronouncing the Indian name correctly, but they're called her the Squaggaroose Lady or the Squagamoose Lady.
And as the legend goes, if you can look at her in the eye, because she had been seen in years past by many different people.
And as the legend goes, if you can hit her in the eye to make a wish, then she'll grant it.
But I never got that far.
I mean, I never did get the chance to look at her in the eye.
And I don't know if you know, but right after Gerald Ford became president, there was a front page article in the Rome Daily American that said, now that Gerald Ford is president, they're going to announce to the world that there are aliens on the planet.
And it would be in about two weeks.
And nothing else ever got printed.
But that was on the front page of the Rome Daily American.
And then I became aware that NATO was full of these people.
They were in human bodies, but they were not from this planet.
And I've had a lot of experiences like that.
I finally told the universe, I don't want anything else to do with this.
And it quit happening for about 15 years.
And then all of a sudden it started happening again.
And, you know, they're not nice people.
They're behind all this genetic engineering stuff.
And one of your guests talked about power spots or something like that.
And when I was in NATO, I had all of these weird experiences.
And it never dawned on me until about two weeks ago when I heard your program that I lived in a house in the ruins of Kuma where the Kumean Sybil used to be.
And the basement of this house I lived in was over 2,000 years old.
And I wonder if that was maybe a power spot.
And all of this stuff was, you know, come into that area where my house was.
Did you or do you have any reports for quite some time now, and in Mexico they don't laugh about this, there is some sort of creature called the chupacabra.
Well, this chupacabra, so-called, apparently began in Puerto Rico and then, to my understanding, spread to South America and on up.
And as you pointed out, there have been a couple of reports, several reports, in Florida.
Really weird stuff.
And I have no idea what it is.
Linda Moulton Howe has investigated this.
The gal gave the report at the beginning of the program extensively, but she, of course, went down with a translator, actually went to Puerto Rico and got some first-hand testimony.
Pretty freaky stuff.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Sue Kovach and Art Bell.
And what I'd like to say was that in 1960, I was living in Topeka, Kansas, and I was living in a mobile home on the outskirts of Topeka.
And I was working the evening shift, and I got home about 2 o'clock and went to bed in the trailer that I had there at the Tennicord right on the Call River.
And I was laying there just about ready to doze off and go to sleep.
And the window, the draper just cracked just a little bit by my head there where you can see out.
And all of a sudden, the room lit up just a bright fluorescent green.
I mean, just like somebody just turned on some huge light, and the whole way inside the trailer just lit up green.
And it startled me.
And I pushed the curtain back so I could see outside the window.
And I seen this huge green thing outside of the trailer.
It looked like, oh, it was, you know, really huge, like a three-bedroom house in diameter and going along at a calculated rate of speed, smooth and straight.
And I jumped up out of my bed.
Now, this is in November in Kansas.
It's really cold there.
But I jumped up out of the bed and run outside.
And when I got outside, I looked up, and it was just going past the tree line whenever I got out there.
And it was still glowing green like that.
And I got a good look at it.
And then I run the house and told my wife, I said, you know, you should have seen what I've just seen.
And started talking to her.
I was all excited.
And she said, well, you sure you see it.
She said, why don't you call the weather bureau or the police department or somebody and tell them about what you've seen?
I said, okay.
So I went in there and I called a couple of different places.
I called the radar place up down at Forbes Air Base and a couple other places and they didn't give me no satisfaction.
And then I called the police department up in Topeka and I was talking to them on the phone and they said, no, we have to, then all of a sudden they said, oh, wait, just a minute.
And they said, oh, okay.
They said, can you come down here in the morning?
And I said, well, I guess I could, because evidently they got calls in.