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Dec. 4, 1997 - Art Bell

03:27:48

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - R.C. Hoagland & Steve Bassett - Navy Records, Brookings Report, Mars. Chris Ruddy - Ron Brown

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	100 KSTP.
	From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, good morning, as the case may be,
	across all these many time zones, stretching from the Tahitian and Hawaiian island chains in
	the west, all the way eastward to the Caribbean and the U.S.
	Virgin Islands.
	Good morning in St.
	Thomas and elsewhere, south into South America.
	North to the Pole and worldwide on the internet.
	This is Coast to Coast AM and I'm Art Bell.
	And we are going to have a very, very busy night tonight.
	Coming up in a few moments, Chris Ruddy.
	That's right, Chris Ruddy.
	And what you're about to hear is going to be rather graphic and shocking.
	I would suggest that those of you who would like to get a look at what we're about to talk about, bearing in mind that it is very graphic, head immediately to my website, which is www.artbell.com.
	Scroll down to the guest section, you will see the name Chris Ruddy.
	There you will be able to view the evidence you're about to hear about.
	That's right, the evidence you're about to hear about.
	So Chris Ruddy, just around the corner, and I'll preface what is going to happen by reading you the London Telegraph story that I had to just read Chris, he didn't even know it ran.
	So all of that ahead, and Richard Hoagland, Ron Nix, and Uh, many more Steve Bassett, uh, I thought that, uh, Dr. Stephen Greer was going to be here, but as a matter of fact, uh, he will be here in spirit, uh, through Mr. Bassett.
	All of that tonight.
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	And stand by, there is a shock just ahead.
	It's 0469.
	Let me read you first the London Telegraph.
	Alright.
	It's an article by Hugo Gurdon.
	G-U-R-D-O-N.
	Ron Brown, President Clinton's Commerce Secretary, who died in a plane crash, you'll recall, in Croatia last year, Seems to have had a bullet hole in his head, according to a report yesterday.
	Chris Ruddy, an investigative reporter at the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, who's written many stories suggesting malfeasance and cover-up in the 93 death of Vince Foster, White House Deputy Counsel, says the death of Mr. Brown, who was being investigated, you'll recall, for corruption, was suspicious.
	Now listen very carefully.
	He quotes Lieutenant Colonel Steve Cogswell, Deputy Medical Examiner at the government's Military Pathology Laboratory as saying, quote, Even if you safely assumed accidental plane crash, when you've got something that appears to be a homicide, that should bring everything to a screeching halt.
	End quote.
	There was, folks, no post-mortem examination of Mr. Brown.
	But Mr. Ruddy has photographs of a round .45 caliber hole in the dead man's head.
	And in addition, x-rays that may show metal fragments in the brain consistent with a bullet breaking up.
	Brown's 737 crashed as it approached the airport In Croatia, in April of 1996, when the U.S.
	military arrived at the scene, Croatian soldiers were already there, and there is evidence the site had been looted.
	But the most disturbing thing is the assumption that it was an accident before American investigators even got to the scene.
	And that was a quote of Well, Art, thank you for having me on.
	Always a pleasure to be on with you.
	Great to have you.
	knows. Here is Chris Ruddy. Chris, welcome. Well Art, thank you for having me on. Always
	a pleasure to be on with you. Great to have you. Now Chris, this is something that just
	came to my attention today when your office faxed a number of things to me and I went,
	What? A .45 caliber bullet hole in the back of Ron Brown's head.
	And I want to warn the audience, we've got that photograph.
	And it's on the website right now.
	It is graphic.
	So use discretion, please, in going up there.
	You'll find it by clicking on Chris Ruddy's name.
	Chris, what's going on?
	Well, I'd like to know myself.
	We have a death of a high government official, in this case, the U.S.
	Secretary of Commerce, Ron Brown.
	We were told that his death was a result of an accident.
	End of story.
	And I discovered that, in fact, several members of the armed forces involved in the investigation did not want to accept that at face value.
	And, in fact, one of them, a lieutenant colonel named Steve Cogswell, who is a forensic pathologist with the armed forces and the Air Force and has been a pathologist for 12 years and heads all their training courses, Um, was participated in the Brown investigation and the plane crash investigation.
	Mm-hmm.
	And he alleges that when Brown's body was returned to Dover Air Force Base, Armed Forces medical personnel discovered on the very top of Brown's head a perfectly circular .45 hole that Cogswell says is an apparent gunshot wound to the head.
	And then backs it up further by suggesting there is some kind of x-ray evidence showing fragments in the brain of, I'm quoting here, consistent with a bullet breaking up.
	Sure.
	Well, I mean, let's go through the layers of evidence.
	First of all, it's perfectly circular.
	And Cogswell's been in over a hundred plane crashes.
	You don't get holes.
	Things do fly through the craft as it's breaking up.
	But to get something perfectly circular is very unusual and it's very typical of a bullet because a bullet's going at immense speeds.
	This plane was crashing at a speed of about 150 miles an hour.
	If a rod or a bolt had poked into the head, which is possible, it would have left jagged edges on the circle.
	It wouldn't have been neat.
	And this case, it was perfectly circular, as your picture will depict, I'm sure, on the internet.
	Yes.
	That was very disturbing.
	The hole was then inwardly beveling, and that, according to pathologists, means that the hole got bigger as you went deeper.
	That's consistent with a gunshot.
	They took the initial x-ray, according to Dr. Cogswell, and what did they find?
	They found metal fragments running, or metal dots, Running through the head, along the left side of Brown's head, around the eye socket, and Coswell says that was consistent with a lead snowstorm, a term used to describe those as a bullet disintegrates in someone's brain.
	Alright, an obvious first question is, Coswell said here, when you have something like this, it appears to be a homicide, it should bring everything to a screeching halt.
	Lieutenant Colonel Steve Cogswell was the deputy medical examiner.
	Why the hell didn't he bring everything to a screeching halt then and there?
	Well, part of the problem was he was at Dover Air Force Base, looked at Brown's body very quickly, but was quickly dispatched to Croatia.
	He did not do the examination himself.
	Lieutenant Colonel Gormley did the examination.
	Cogswell is sent to Croatia and to be at the scene to coordinate with the pathologist at Dover.
	Unfortunately, it took him about a day and a half or two days to get there, so he gets there probably the next day.
	So the examination took place at Dover on Sunday, Easter Sunday.
	The next Monday night, the next day, Cogswell arrives in Croatia.
	And he was there for good reason, to see how the bodies fell and to see that the wounds and things were consistent with the plane crash.
	Right.
	He gets a call while he's there from Gormley, the pathologist that did the examination of Brown.
	Right.
	He says, how did things go?
	And Gormley said, everything except for the hole in Ron Brown's head.
	And what hole?
	Cogswell asks.
	He says, well, there was a perfectly circular 0.45 inwardly beveling hole in Brown's head.
	And Cogswell says, sounds like a gunshot.
	Yeah.
	And according to Cogswell, Gormley says, yeah.
	Can you find a piece of the aircraft that could explain it?
	A bolt or a cylinder or a nut or something that pounded into the head.
	And Cogswell dutifully did that.
	But he said to Gormley, you know, do an autopsy.
	The man needs an autopsy.
	Obviously.
	Well, what he didn't realize at the time was that the body had already been released from Dover and embalmed.
	That was the day before.
	They didn't do an autopsy.
	And in fact, what he later finds out when he returns to the United States from other members that were present, and I have interviewed other members that were present at Dover, I'm not just relying on Cogswell, that when that initial x-ray was taken, they destroyed it.
	They regaged the x-ray machine to lower the density so the metal fragments wouldn't appear.
	What?
	I know it sounds incredible.
	Now, I have a copy of the initial x-ray, and you might ask me, how did I get a copy?
	How did you get a copy?
	Well, it sounds like something right out of the X-Files, right?
	Yeah.
	Well, when the initial x-rays were thrown up on the light box, there in the mortuary, in the servicing area, the photographer took pictures of all of them.
	And they forgot that she had pictures on her camera, a Navy photographer.
	Now, Cogswell quickly got a hold of them when he gets back to the United States.
	They took additional x-rays of the head with the new regaged machine.
	Cogswell is now alleging that they have since destroyed all the head x-rays.
	None of them are in the case file.
	But, of course, he has photographs of them.
	Why?
	Destroyed.
	Why?
	Well, that's a good question.
	I mean, why should there be missing x-rays?
	And, you know, remember the case that I'm so well noted for, the Vince Foster case?
	Yes.
	All the x-rays are missing, even though they say they took them.
	So it immediately raises the question, well, why are all the x-rays missing?
	And now we know, in this case, there was an apparent gunshot.
	It was incriminating evidence.
	One of the reasons why I think all the head x-rays are gone, even the ones that, you know, they fixed with the metal fragments, Is that the defense the Army is using, and I called Colonel Gormley, who did the examination at Dover, and said it was not a bullet hole.
	He said it wasn't a bullet hole because it didn't even penetrate the skull.
	He admitted to me it was perfectly circular, which is unusual, but he said that when he looked at it, the bony area of the skull was not blown away.
	He said it was a little depressed, and the brain was not visible.
	Well, if that's true, how do metal fragments consistent with a bullet breaking up get into the brain?
	Well, he claimed the x-rays didn't show any metal fragments, and of course that's the new x-rays that they took.
	But what Colonel Gormley did not realize when I was interviewing him was that I have the photo, which you put up, but in color it's very clear And I've spoken to several experts that the brain is visible, that the hole did go through the skull.
	The skull is only about a quarter inch thick.
	And we should tell the audience what we have on the website tonight.
	And by the way, we've got a link to the original article in your newspaper, Chris.
	But we've got a photograph of the skull, of the hole, and of the x-ray.
	That's all sitting there.
	Go take a look, folks.
	And, um, I have all of the... See, see, how I find out about this is interesting, Art.
	When Cogswell comes back, he heads the training courses for the Armed Forces Institute, goes around the country giving professional conferences and slide programs.
	He also trains FBI agents that take special courses in homicide at the FBI Academy.
	for the past year he's been showing me explaining why there was strong evidence
	brown was assassinated and it was ignored there was a cover-up
	to be the agency fbi to these professionals that he's showing it to
	and when i learned about this i immediately uh... called him and found
	out and found out through other members that there was significant evidence
	now i'm not saying to you and to the members of your program brown was
	murdered i am saying that there was some evidence
	of uh... an apparent gunshot and that they're engaged in an immediate cover-up
	and they never did the most basic thing you need to do which is an autopsy
	Now, it would seem to me this is more than sufficient evidence to have the body exhumed.
	Oh, absolutely.
	But again, I don't know.
	I thought there was more than sufficient evidence in the Vince Foster case to have a second autopsy, but they never did that.
	You know, you have a lot of technical problems and family problems.
	I don't know what the family is going to say here.
	There is no way, of course, to know whether this, if it is a bullet hole, was inflicted prior to or following the crash.
	Well, yes and no.
	Cogswell says he doesn't know if it took place before the crash, during it, or after.
	There have been all sorts of theories about this, if it was a bullet hole.
	I can tell you that I showed this to the photograph to a top firearms expert in the world who lives in Britain.
	Yes.
	And he was very disturbed, and I don't include this in the article, but he was very disturbed looking at the photo because he noticed impacted in the skin around the hole, in the skin of the scalp, metal fragments.
	And he was pointing this out to me and he said it's consistent with bullet fragments when it impacts Um, some of those fragments were in the lacerated skin several inches away from the actual hole.
	Um, and apparently the laceration of the skin and the scalp took place during the crash.
	So if that's the case, he was saying, it would be likely, more likely that the gun was fired before the crash.
	Oh my God.
	Again, you know, and people say, well, how can that happen in a plane crash?
	Let's remember something.
	There were several people on that plane with handguns.
	Well, I was about to ask you, who was on that plane?
	Well, there were 14 businessmen and top-level executives, but there were also security personnel from the Commerce Department.
	There were military personnel.
	I was told by someone that's knowledgeable of the Air Force, the report here, That there were probably several handguns, automatic pistols, and possibly a machine gun on board.
	All right, now another obvious question is, if you know what armaments were carried or on board, were there any .45 caliber?
	Not that I... We haven't tracked that down.
	The Army standard issue, I don't believe anymore, is a .45.
	It once was.
	It once was.
	There was a 9mm clip recovered.
	From the scene that was found to be empty.
	Now that's unusual.
	Empty?
	Why would the clip of a 9mm pistol be found empty?
	The first sergeant rescuer on the scene who I have interviewed told the Air Force that when the first thing he noticed that was very unusual was that there was a holster on one of the individuals and the gun was missing and he didn't believe that it should have come out in the crash.
	I want to re-emphasize to people, this was not a high-impact crash.
	This was a relatively low-impact crash.
	They were coming in for landing.
	It was about 150 miles an hour.
	Most of the bodies were intact.
	There was one survivor for several hours.
	There were potential survivors in this crash.
	The first sergeant on the scene, American, told me that he was astounded to find wine bottles still standing straight up in the plane's galley in the back.
	Wow.
	The whole rear part of the plane was found intact.
	The hatch was open, and that's where the two stewardesses were found.
	One was found by Croatians, apparently alive, and she died subsequent to that.
	And again, you know, the other issue here is the crash itself.
	Brown's plane crashes, and they immediately ruled it an accident.
	The White House and the Pentagon said That the weather was very poor and there was apparently an accident.
	Well, Charlie, I recall the news was saying it was an accident before they had reached the zine.
	Well, the weather was quite good, right?
	At that time, the plane was landing.
	There was just a lot of cloud cover.
	They first tried to report that the weather was bad and then they had a follow-up report indicating, I recall, that no, the weather at that particular moment had actually been quite good.
	Right.
	And the Air Force, but the next day, Secretary of Defense Perry announced, the day after the crash, that it was, the crash resulted as a matter of bad instruments.
	Now that's interesting, because no American investigator should still get, yet, there were soldiers there, but no one had gotten to the scene to investigate.
	How did they know?
	I mean, here you have a plane going down in an area where there was hostilities of long duration going on there.
	Um, that was, I think, an initial problem.
	The Air Force then violated its procedures, which is to treat every plane crash as suspicious, convene what they call a safety board.
	Of course, the standard.
	Um, uh, Chris, hold on.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	We'll be right back.
	My guest is, uh, Chris Ruddy.
	The evidence, pictorial evidence, is on my website right now, www.rfl.com.
	Just scroll on down till you see Chris Ruddy's name and click on that.
	It is graphic.
	I warn you.
	Stay right there.
	I'm going to be right back.
	Art Bell is taking your calls on the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	This is Coast to Coast AM from the Kingdom of Nye with Art Bell.
	It is, and right now I've got Christopher Ruddy who is an investigative reporter for the Pittsburgh Tribune Review with a story that ought to blow up the world.
	It sure ought to.
	We'll get back to that in a moment.
	I mean, you've got nothing to lose but the fat.
	Well, alright, again, my website holds the pictorial evidence of what we're discussing.
	It's rather graphic, so be warned.
	It's at www.artbell, that's A-R-T-B-E-L-L, all strung together, dot com.
	www.artbell.com.
	Scroll down to the guest area, click on the Chris Ruddy name, and you'll be right there.
	Now, Chris, I have a question for you.
	Say good and close your phone for me, and thank you.
	There are those who would say that a .45 caliber bullet entering somebody's head from a medium or close distance would blow their entire side of their head off.
	Well, no.
	Actually, in the article, I quote the former head of Army Wound Ballistics, one of the premier experts in this country, named Martin Fackler, who said that the wound is very typical of a gunshot.
	Now, Cogswell was originally told the measurement was .45.
	We have a photograph of the wound that's photographed with a ruler captured in the picture.
	Right.
	We had Fackler look at it.
	He did several calibrated, instrumented experiments to see how wide it was.
	He said it was slightly small for a .45.
	It could be more comparable to a .40 10mm gun.
	Which is very commonly used by law enforcement and the FBI today.
	You understand, I don't have to tell you what you're saying.
	In other words, you are alluding to the possibility that somebody on that plane, one of our people, shot or assassinated Ron Brown before the plane hit the ground.
	Well, I'm not alluding to that.
	I'm saying that Brown was found when his body was returned.
	There are some people, the telegraph people sort of insinuate that some of the locals were there and could have shot the gun into the head.
	You could read that into their story.
	Well, I know that's what the reporter told me when he spoke to me.
	He suggested that as a scenario.
	There are also two Croatians on that plane who have never been fully accounted for.
	Their bodies weren't returned to Dover.
	We don't know what happened with them.
	I think it's unfair to speculate and theorize.
	You know that I've written a book on the Foster case called The Strange Death of Vincent Foster.
	I do, yes.
	And it's in bookstores.
	That'll be my 22nd commercial.
	And it's been endorsed by the former director of the FBI, Bill Sessions, precisely because I don't offer theories and conspiracies.
	I just lay out the facts.
	And the facts in this case are equally disturbing.
	In the Foster case, the police immediately said it was a suicide before any detectives looked at the body.
	You know, were they psychic?
	In the same case here, you have a parallel situation of a plane accident, apparently, but that's supposed to be treated suspiciously, just like a suicide.
	Let us look to possible motives for a second.
	Of course, that's something you always do in a possible homicide.
	Yes.
	Ron Brown was facing an investigation for what?
	Well, Ron Brown was under independent counsel investigation as a target of a criminal probe for improper financial dealings before he became Secretary of Commerce with his longtime partner, mistress, Nolanda Hill.
	And Hill, apparently, the government was moving in very close and indicting her, Brown's son, Michael, on these transactions.
	They were sort of sham transactions where Brown He got maybe close to a million dollars in cash before he became Secretary of Commerce from assets in a corporation that had no value.
	It was just sort of a payoff to give him some net worth before he became a government official, which is improper.
	Just before, two weeks before his death, the independent counsel named Dan Pearson Had widened the probe and it issued a bunch of subpoenas involving Democratic Party fundraising, Asian Pacific group that was involved in some of these fundraising scandals, John Wong and the like.
	So this is when we first hear about the financial fundraising impropriety.
	Hill, Nalanda Hill, Brown's partner, claims that Um, within a week or so of that, uh, those subpoenas, he was asked to go on this plane.
	He was not originally supposed to be there.
	And she, of course, has alleged that he was murdered, um, and that the plane was taken down.
	And, of course, the investigations ended almost immediately of him by the independent counsel.
	Well, that was going to be my next question.
	In other words, uh, that brought to a halt the investigation, so we never We never got to follow that trail at all.
	Why would they not continue the investigation?
	Simply because you no longer had a target?
	Yeah, well they claimed that the purpose was for an independent counsel to examine wrongdoing of a government official in the cabinet.
	That cabinet official is now dead, so therefore Investigations into Nolanda Hill and Michael Brown were to continue under the Justice Department, and they have.
	Brown, Michael, the son, just pleaded guilty and got a very light slap on the wrist.
	Now what's interesting here, and you've raised a very important issue, Art, is should the independent counsel have gone out of business had he been aware that there was a possibility of a homicide?
	I have recently spoken with one of the top people in Pearson's office, who told me off the record that had there been evidence of a possible homicide, sure, that there could have been good reason to continue.
	Better reason?
	Well, because then their target would have been, was the homicide a result of their investigation?
	And I think any judge would have allowed them to continue their probe.
	And I don't read the law, and I know these things are very unusual, but somebody could argue that, in fact, Pearson could still be back in business as an independent counsel, based on these allegations.
	What sort of reaction have you had nationwide to this story, to this moment?
	Well, it's sort of interesting.
	Talk radio has generally been very well receiving of this, and I've been on radio shows non-stop.
	African-American radio, print media, and other media related to that community have been calling me non-stop.
	There have been great suspicions in the black community about Brown's death for some time, and I think this has brought it to a head.
	And so that is an audience that I have not really spoken to before as a result of my journalism, although I have covered stories that do affect them as a journalist.
	I didn't even think of the story as color-oriented until you just mentioned it.
	I didn't even think of that.
	It was just a government official, Ron Brown, and murder.
	Well, I couldn't tell you the number of black shows I've been on the past two days.
	Yeah, I guess that would make sense.
	What about major media other than, of course, your newspaper?
	What about any other major media?
	Well, I think the major media at this point are quaking in their boots or hiding.
	They're afraid to touch this.
	I mean, here you have, this is not just speculation or assertion.
	You have two things here.
	You have a lieutenant colonel on the record.
	Right.
	And I have all of the slideshow images he shows on photographs.
	We only printed a couple of them.
	I have all copies of the x-rays and the head wound and the body and the corpse and what Brown's body looked at the crash and the crash site pictures.
	Maybe we should get, Chris, maybe we should get a high-resolution scan of some of the photographs you've got of the early X-rays.
	Is that possible?
	It is possible.
	I'm probably going to be trying to hold a press conference in Washington in the very near future where those will be released because I have a recorded interview with Dr. Cogswell that lasts about 40 minutes as he goes through these images and we're going to do that and as soon as those are available I will make them available to you and your listeners, of course.
	If what you suspect is true, then anybody who would do that, Chris, wouldn't hesitate to come after you in a heartbeat?
	Well, I mean, the same thing could be argued in the Foster case, and the fact is, as you know, Art, it's very hard to shoot a journalist in America.
	However, and it would be very suspicious, of course, if my plane suddenly were to go down, the plane that I was flying in.
	However, the press and the government has resorted to tactics that border on police state tactics and going after me.
	I've been identified in a White House memo as a target of the White House.
	The Western Journalism Center and Joe Farah were targeted for IRS audit.
	I've been published in the Wall Street Journal because of my work and because we ask questions about the Vince Foster case.
	And, of course, 60 Minutes did what I think most people agree is a hatchet job on me.
	Oh, it was.
	It was.
	It was character assassination.
	Look, I'm used to that at this point, but that's what they're going to try to do because it's the only tactic they can use in the book.
	They keep on saying right-wing.
	I say this has nothing to do with politics.
	This is about a cover-up of a high official.
	I don't think it matters whether Ron Brown... I think for a lot of people, and we should assume the best about Ron Brown in the sense that he wasn't indicted, he wasn't convicted of anything, he was a hero to millions of people, and he had come from very humble beginnings.
	to overcome. He grew up in Harlem and he later became one of the highest officials, first black
	man to head a political party and the highest ranking black in the Clinton administration.
	And he, I'm sure, overcame many obstacles to get to where he was and was quite talented.
	He was still under investigation and that needs to be considered as well.
	When you look to motive now, so you've got reason to be suspicious with regard to motive.
	You've got a bullet hole, approximating a 45 caliber bullet, and you've got
	Lieutenant Colonel Steve Cogswell, the deputy medical examiner, who said,
	when you've got something that appears to be a homicide, that should bring everything to a
	screeching halt, but instead the body was embalmed and is now buried.
	Right?
	Right.
	And the evidence was destroyed, as you pointed out.
	And then we've got fragments in the brain as well.
	Now, if this is not enough to get a body exhumed and to reopen an investigation to get a special prosecutor going, then it's a different country than I thought it was, even today.
	As strong as I believe my evidence in the Vince Foster case is, This is even stronger because I have the photos and x-rays that show.
	Yes, sir.
	Yes, sir.
	For example, Colonel Gormley, who did the examination and says it wasn't a bullet hole, he says that the bullet didn't go through the skull.
	Well, I have the x-ray that shows it did go through.
	He didn't know, I guess, that that was available.
	I have the photo, which you have now.
	You're treading on very dangerous ground.
	Thanks for reminding me of that.
	The best way to do this, of course, is to do what you're doing and be as public as you can.
	And I'm glad you're pointing out the possibility that that does incur to me, a liability to me.
	Well, you really have to point that out, because if A is true, then B is absolutely possible.
	Well, I believe that this administration has dealt very ruthlessly with their enemies and people that have stood in their way.
	A lot of people criticize Jimmy Carter, but no one ever said he engaged in cover-ups or abuses of power or whatever.
	And I'm sure these abuses have gone on under Republican administrations, but I don't think to the degree and with the quiescence or the acquiescence of the The press, which is very bizarre.
	And I mean, immediately the press job, the whole thing about the accident, that they accepted that, that it was immediately an accident.
	How does anyone know?
	For instance, there was a hostilities going on there between the Serbs and the Bosnians for a long period of time.
	Why should we assume that it was even in TWA 800?
	There was an assumption that there could have been something wrong.
	There was an investigation that went on.
	You may disagree with the result, and a lot of people do, and I know you had Bill Donaldson.
	I do, and I thought Donaldson was very effective.
	Yeah, I mean, something smelled there.
	I haven't investigated that, but something smells.
	But at least there was not a presumption from the very instant there was nothing to it.
	But here, like in the Foster case, they immediately presumed it was an accident.
	Then you had the situation, now the Air Force claims that the plane crashed through the cloud cover directly into the mountains.
	Correct.
	Because basically the ground beacons were faulty or improperly used.
	Correct.
	But they don't know what happened to the ground beacons because three days after the crash, the maintenance chief at Dubrovnik Airport, a man whose name was Niko Junik, died of a suicide, they said, gunshot wound to the chest.
	Just before the American investigators could interview him.
	Oh, inconvenient.
	The one portable ground beacon that the airport had was missing, was stolen just before this incident, according to the Air Force's own report.
	What a terrible coincidence.
	So, I mean, there's more than enough to raise all sorts of questions that I think... People say, oh, well, it's conspiracy-mongering.
	Are you implying that the President killed Bill Clinton?
	I'm implying nothing.
	I'm saying ground zero, you have a body of a cabinet official with an apparent gunshot wound.
	That's what they described it as.
	Yep.
	They should have done an autopsy and they didn't.
	Um, that's just beyond my ability to comprehend, uh, that they would not do an autopsy.
	Anything suspicious, uh, particularly in a very high level case like this would automatically trigger an autopsy.
	But it didn't.
	Well, you would think that they would want to do it with a high... It's standard practice, by the way, in any plane crash, as a matter of investigative procedure, because the autopsies help the investigators to figure out what happened in the crash.
	For instance, in the autopsy, they look into the person's throat and the lungs to see if there's smoke, and that indicates, you know, what type of smoke and where the smoke was in the plane, based on where the passengers were seated.
	Um, the Air Force and the Armed Forces policy is that they don't have immediate rights to do an autopsy on anyone that's a civilian or any federal official, only military personnel.
	But as a rule, they ask all the families, if they do get civilians into Dover, they request permission to do autopsies.
	Funny, in this case, they decided not to do that.
	All right, Chris, look.
	You're reaching a lot of people right now.
	A lot of press is listening.
	If somebody wants to follow this up with you, how do they do it?
	Well, the two things is they can contact me at the Pittsburgh Tribune Review, which is
	at 412-834-1151.
	They can also go to my web page, which by the way does not have the photo images, just
	articles that I've written, but they can email me at www.ruddynews.com.
	All one word, ruddynews.com.
	And I believe we have a link to your page as well.
	All right.
	That's www.ruddynews.com.
	Right.
	And I would hope and encourage people, and I know I've been on your program, I believe, at least twice before.
	Right.
	My book, The Strange Death of Vincent Foster, is in bookstores across the country.
	And I believe it's a how-to manual on how the government engages in cover-ups.
	And it's been selling very strongly around the country precisely because the media is not telling the public the full facts on cases like this.
	Well, the media is easily befuddled, but when they are presented with hard, visual evidence, then, Chris, there are those out there who get brave and will take it on.
	And I think that you have sufficient evidence in this Brown case to demand an investigation.
	And any journalist worth his salt who doesn't investigate this is part of the problem.
	Well, I think there's a lot of journalists that are part of the problem.
	It's a very sad state we have in this country and it's very dangerous for all our freedom if things are not properly investigated.
	And nothing should be, you know, people have criticized and we've discussed this, you, for bringing up certain topics.
	And I've always admired you because you've taken on topics that people are afraid to, the media says is not PC or not acceptable.
	And I believe the truth comes from a discussion, that no one has a lock hold on the truth.
	We get it by arguing and discussing and putting things out.
	And if things are irrational or not reasonable, three people in thinking those things out will be able to figure that out.
	All right, my friend.
	We are out of time.
	And I have got to go, but your message is out.
	The information will remain on the website.
	And, uh, Chris, be careful out there.
	I will, Art.
	And you take care and say hello to your lovely wife.
	I certainly will.
	Thank you, Chris, and good night.
	That's, uh, Chris Ruddy.
	I'm Art Bell and this is Coast to Coast AM.
	Everybody...
	Challenge some of you to listen to Dreamland.
	Sunday nights at 9 on AM 1500 KST.
	Oh, we gotta get right back to where we started from.
	Love is good, love music's strong.
	We gotta get right back to where we started from.
	Love is good, love music's strong.
	you To fax Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye, dial area code 702-727-8499.
	That's area code 702-727-8499.
	Please limit faxes to one or two pages.
	That's area code 702-727-8499.
	Please limit faxes to one or two pages.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	Good morning from the high desert, which is about to be the wet high desert.
	The rains are coming big time out this way, folks, and they're even talking about the possibility of a little snow.
	Anyway, good morning.
	I have several announcements, and then we will begin this evening's saga with Richard C. Hoagland and Ron Nix.
	And as a matter of fact, we'll also have Steve Bassett here from Washington, who will be representing Dr. Stephen Greer on a number of subjects and those of you who have never heard Richard C. Hoagland are in for quite a treat.
	First though I want to quickly go over what we did last hour.
	I had Christopher Ruddy who's an investigative journalist for the Pittsburgh Tribune On the air.
	And I want to read you quickly so that this does not die, but keeps going because it's too important to ignore.
	I'm going to read you the London Telegraph story that I read in the first hour, and I'm going to advise you where you can see the visual evidence that Mr. Ruddy has provided.
	Prepare yourself for a shock.
	Ron Brown, President Clinton's Commerce Secretary, who died, of course, in a plane crash in Croatia last year.
	Seems to have had a bullet hole in his head, according to a report.
	Yesterday, Chris Ruddy, an investigative reporter at the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, who's written many, many stories suggesting malfeasance and cover-up in the 93 death of Vince Foster, White House Deputy Counsel, says the death of Mr. Brown, who was being investigated for corruption, was suspicious.
	Now listen to me very carefully.
	He quotes Lieutenant Colonel Steve Cogswell, Deputy Medical Examiner at the government's Military Pathology Laboratory as saying, quote, Even if you safely assumed accidental plane crash, when you've got something that appears to be a homicide, that should bring everything to a screeching halt, end quote.
	Now that is Not a politically inspired comment, folks.
	This is Lieutenant Colonel Steve Cogswell, Deputy Medical Examiner at the Government's Military Pathology Lab.
	He goes on, or the article goes on, there was no post-mortem examination of Mr. Brown.
	But, quoting here, Mr. Ruddy has photographs of a round .45 caliber hole in the dead man's head, And of x-rays that may show metal fragments in the brain consistent with a bullet breaking up.
	That's from the London Telegraph, and I just spent the last hour with Chris Ruddy, and what we did, with Chris Ruddy's permission, was to post the rather graphic, and I warn you, they are rather graphic photographs, of Ron Brown's head, With this hole being described in it and metal fragments in the brain, again quoting from this article, consistent with a bullet breaking up.
	He's got also very good photographs of x-rays that Chris Ruddy says were then modified by changing the threshold of the machine taking the x-rays.
	So these photographs are now on my website and you may view them at www.artbell.com.
	Scroll down until you find the name Chris Ruddy.
	Click on that and you will see the photographic evidence.
	This would seem to demand a continuation, a renewal of the investigation, not a closing of the investigation.
	Alright, a couple of other items that I would like to hit here, and that is that on May 10th through the 17th, there
	is an incredible opportunity for you.
	The Pyramids, the Sphinx, the Mystery, a trip on, uh, one of the, uh, the greatest, uh, ships, um, that sails the high seas.
	The MS Stottendam, Holland America Lines, nothing but quality all the way.
	You will, of course, go through the incredible ice fields, the college fjord, the whole thing.
	You know, I made that trip.
	It is just astoundingly good.
	However, the reason I'm going is that I will participate in the last three days of this cruise, because we're going to have a big conference, more like a debate, and hopefully not a shouting match.
	The very volatile Azahi, Dr. Azahi Awas, Antiquities Director at Egypt, will be there, with Danyan Brinkley, Graham Hancock, Robert Bavall, Dr. Ed Krupp, and I will moderate this panel, which I hope will be moderate.
	If you would like to come along, the rates are extraordinarily good, The opportunity is an extraordinary one.
	May 10th through the 17th.
	Alaska in real luxury.
	With all of this going on.
	Whew!
	Here are the numbers.
	And there are still some births available.
	Birth is not the right word.
	Cabins.
	The number is 1-800-888-5509.
	That's 1-800-888-5509.
	If you're in California, call Area Code 310-568-0138.
	Now, I want to tell you, you can call even right now.
	Even this moment.
	310-568-0138. Now I want to tell you, you can call even right now, even this moment.
	It's an Egyptian travel agency and you need to talk to a very nice gentleman there named Abbas.
	Abbas Nadim.
	And yeah, I think he's there right now.
	1-800-888-5509.
	So it's not quite sold out yet.
	You still have an opportunity to jump on board as it were.
	The other thing that I've got to get here before we get started with Richard, because once you get started with Richard, there is no stopping.
	I am making, for a very short period of time here, very, very short period of time, autographed copies of both of my books available, The Art of Talk, about my career in talk radio and my life and, you know, from the moment I was born.
	In fact, there's a picture of my mom pregnant with me, very pregnant with me, in The Art of Talk, and a lot of behind-the-scenes kind of stuff.
	That was my first book.
	And The Quickening.
	Available, of course, in stores across the country, but for a short time here, I'm making both of these books available, um, autographed.
	And when I say short, I'm telling you it's going to be short, so don't wait, it will end without notice.
	The number is 1-800-864-7991.
	You can call that number right now.
	You can call that number right now.
	1-800-864-7991.
	800-406-0469.
	Now, Richard C. Hoagland, a one-time advisor to NASA, a science advisor to Daddy Walter
	Cronkite at CBS, and the winner of the Engstrom Science Award.
	From his new digs in Albuquerque, New Mexico, here is Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hi, Richard.
	Good morning, Art.
	Good morning.
	You're a little faint.
	For some reason, you're down in the mud.
	I hear you just fine.
	Okay.
	With a little bit of hum.
	Okay.
	You know, it's kind of ironic that we're on tonight in WABC in New York because a few months ago, I used to live in the greater New York area.
	And no sooner do I leave than you capture the big one.
	That's the way it works, I guess.
	You know, they're partially captured.
	As a matter of fact, we're trying to get the ABC audience to call WABC and ask them to keep the program on.
	So, hint, hint, out there in New York.
	We would love to have you do that, but it does look pretty good, Richard.
	That's excellent.
	Well, anyway, a nice hello to all our friends back east.
	It would be nice if you could all come and visit us here in New Mexico.
	It is extraordinary.
	It's gorgeous.
	It's one of the best moves we've ever made.
	We're in the middle of an extraordinary research triangle between Sandia and Los Alamos.
	And the Native American lore and the people that we've met are equally fantastic.
	And I must say that it's a nice place to be tonight.
	Good.
	All right.
	Well, you know, there is a large, obvious new audience there.
	So I think that it would be appropriate that you catch the audience up on the Enterprise mission.
	And once again, Photographs and an entire website are available through my website if you want to learn more about what you're just about to hear about.
	Go to my website and there are many places, Richard's name of course, and many links to Richard's website called the Enterprise Mission.
	Yeah, if you want to go directly, it's www.enterprisemission.com.
	Like the Starship, or the first space shuttle, EnterpriseMission.com, and of course there are links between the Art Bell website at www.artbell.com and Enterprise, and there are specific links tonight to some new things we put on the web appropriate to this particular show.
	This, Art, is going to be one heck of a roller coaster.
	Because not only do we have to catch up new people on your network, and I understand you're now up 400 affiliates and climbing, but we also have to bring up the old people, the ones who have been following our research for the last several years, on some very extraordinary new developments, particularly those that have taken place since the Pasadena Conference on September 11th.
	Richard, you're originally noted for your investigation into the monuments.
	Well, actually, even before that, back in the 1980s, I was looking very hard at a little moon of Jupiter called Europa.
	And when I was covering the Voyager story out of JPL in the summer of 1980, Actually, the spring of 79 and the winter of 1980, we flew this extraordinary spacecraft, NASA did, by Jupiter for the first time, and encountered the four moons, you know, Io, Ganymede, Europa, Callisto, and Jupiter itself, and it was as part of that observation that I began work on essentially what turned out to be the first scientific paper
	Which ultimately appeared in Star and Sky magazine in the beginning of 1980, which was a prognostication putting all the data together that there might be a global ocean under the ice cover that Voyager had revealed about Europa, and that in that global ocean there actually might be some extant living life forms.
	Well, you know, they used to say that if you wait long enough, sometimes things come around.
	Well, this last year, With the Galileo mission in orbit around Jupiter, some 17 years after that set of predictions, it turns out that probably we are correct.
	There's been a tremendous excitement over the Galileo observations of Europa, and there have been all kinds of press conferences and science panels and, you know, New York Times survey articles on the potentials for a global ocean, and for biology in it, and for missions that need to go back and And verify all this, and it doesn't hurt in the scientific community, or in good journalism, or in science in general, if you make a prediction and ultimately turn out to be right.
	Sure.
	What's ironic, of course, is that we were right about the concept of life, because many years later, in 1983, I began to get involved in the potential NASA photography and, shall we say, sleight of hand, Regarding another environment where life might be found, have been found, namely on Mars, and that was the beginning of a serious inquiry into whether there were actual photographs, photographic evidence from the Viking missions back in 1976, showing possible intelligently designed artifacts, ruins, lying on the Martian surface, which for some reason the space agency had let languish in a drawer.
	That was some 15 years ago, and we're still going.
	And as you're going to hear tonight, those who are new to this network and those who have been with us, there have been some striking new developments in that very long and very complicated and very controversial investigation, which has now gone through several iterations at several major research centers around the country, SRI, the University of California, Berkeley, and now, of course, the Independent Enterprise Mission, which I head.
	All right.
	What exactly Is there?
	What has been found?
	Well, if you look at the original Viking photography, which was taken from roughly a thousand miles up by a spacecraft which passed over this site in the northern latitudes of Mars twice in roughly 35 days.
	Looking down from that thousand mile vantage point on these Vidicon images, you see what appears to be a tremendously organized geometric complex of striking non-natural forms.
	Now, Carl Sagan, my friend and colleague for many years up until his departure, wrote a book called Cosmos many, many years ago, in which he analyzed photographs taken of the Earth by Earth satellites, weather satellites, TIROS, Nimbus, or whatever.
	And he coined a kind of a rule of thumb, which was that looking down on our planet, on the Earth, where we know there's intelligent life, And we know we build stuff.
	He said that the first evidence on those satellite photography of intelligent life on Earth is the geometric regularity of its design.
	That rule of thumb can be applied without one change of one word or phrase or nuance to the photographs we have from NASA of Mars.
	The striking, stunning, repeating geometric regularity Of what we have looked at and examined now for 15 years in the deserts of Cydonia, which is the name of the place on Mars where this stuff lives.
	If it were found on Earth, and I've said this so many times, if we found this on Earth, there'd be archaeologists out there tonight digging and writing extraordinary treatises and journals all over the world.
	Because the geometric regularity is so present.
	It is so there.
	It is so regular.
	The problem, of course, is it was on Mars.
	And even though we've had this anticipation for over a hundred years that we might find something alive on Mars, when the actual evidence came in, instead of pursuing it, I mean it's like instead of doing an autopsy on Ron Brown, NASA put the photographs in a drawer, closed the drawer, said case closed, and until we began a tremendous intensive set of investigations And raising a lot of fuss in a lot of quarters, bringing in independent scientists and institutions, putting together these investigations, and basically making a pain of ourselves for the agency.
	Nobody gave a damn about what Viking may have discovered in those northern Martian deserts.
	Richard, I understand that our newest spacecraft, that we all hope will take high-resolution photographs of the Cydonia region, has been Somehow delayed or something has gone wrong.
	I'm not quite clear on what the status is.
	What's going on?
	Well, the Mars Surveyor, which is the unmanned spacecraft, which arrived at Mars in September of this year, September 11th, was placed into orbit.
	The original game plan was, because of the limited payload weight and the limited amount of fuel, NASA was going to use a totally different technique for placing this spacecraft in the proper orbit.
	And that technique basically was called aerobraking.
	They designed a flight plan whereby dipping the spacecraft through the upper atmosphere of Mars once every orbit, the initial orbit was 45 hours in length.
	Would slow it down.
	It would slow it down by means of friction.
	Instead of having to use fuel.
	Exactly.
	Instead of using retro rockets and burning a lot of fuel for like 20 minutes to slow it down and put it into a circular orbit, you would basically Dip into the atmosphere a little bit on every orbit, and every orbit would then cause the spacecraft to shrink in terms of its total orbit around Mars until three months later, four months later, you'd be in the right kind of orbit, the so-called mapping orbit, to begin the actual mission.
	Makes sense.
	Cheaper, faster.
	Well, not so much faster as cheaper and within the current exigencies of the state of the art.
	Sure.
	When they began doing that in September, everything went well for several weeks, and then they They hit a problem, or more accurately, they told us they hit a problem.
	And as we go through the evening, for the people who are just joining us, particularly in New York, you're going to hear me say that NASA says versus reality.
	Because it turns out a lot of the things that NASA tells us simply aren't true.
	And they come from one source, and we constantly now have to question when this agency and many other government agencies tell us something, is it in fact the truth, or is it spin control?
	Is it doctored images?
	Be they autopsy photos or photos of Mars?
	So, what happened a few months ago, maybe a month and a half ago, is that NASA suddenly announced that that game plan of slowing the spacecraft down had run into some kind of technical snag.
	Technical snag.
	Alright, hold that thought and we'll be right back to you Richard.
	Technical snag.
	Hmm.
	Now what could it be?
	To find out, you've got to hang on.
	That's the cliffhanger.
	I'm Art Bell from the high desert where it's soon to be wet.
	This is Coast to Coast AF.
	lonely night take a trip to the city lights it takes a long way it takes a long way you're
	never see what it's gonna be river plain to the galilee it takes a long way it takes a long way
	to talk with art bell on coast to coast am from outside the u.s first dial your access numbers
	to the usa then dial 1-800-893-0903 This is Coast to Coast AM from the Kingdom of Nine, with Art Bell.
	It is, and Richard C. Hoagland presently is my guest.
	There's going to be much more to come tonight, and a lot to unfold, so turn the radio up, get comfortable, get ready.
	Because we're going to fill your head with a lot.
	Hey, anybody out there have their own star?
	I do.
	I've got my own star, my private star.
	Oprah Winfrey, Tom Cruise, Nicole Kidman, Brooke Shields, Alec Baldwin, Madonna, even Madonna's new baby, Gregory Hines, Princess Diana.
	Well, you can get your own star.
	A real star.
	One of the ones you see at night when you have clear skies, if you've got them.
	For a mere $45, you can have a star named after anybody you want.
	You call the International Star Registry.
	Now, please write this number down.
	I'm answering so much email about this.
	It's 1-800-282-3333.
	1-800-282-3333. 1-800-282-3333.
	They will send a beautiful, full-color parchment certificate of records, sky chart, and a fascinating
	booklet on astronomy to you.
	And I'm telling you, the full parchment certificate is astoundingly... I put it on my camera one night here.
	It's gigantic!
	Now, so you might know, the new star name is entered in the registry's book and recorded with the U.S.
	Copyright Office.
	For more information, Call.
	Take this number down, folks.
	1-800-282-3333.
	You can actually give a star for Christmas.
	And I'm still curious, and I'm going to call them maybe tomorrow and find out what happens if your star should happen to go supernova.
	Do you get your money back if you want it?
	Or do you simply become very famous because your star is then exploded, causing great publicity?
	I don't know, we'll find out.
	By the way, to update you, Miami police now say that the unidentified woman's body did not fall from a plane.
	A woman initially believed to have fallen to her death from an airplane, or something, actually tumbled from an apartment balcony, but investigators are not sure if it was an accident, murder, or suicide.
	The body of the still unidentified woman in black was found Tuesday by residents of an apartment building near Miami's Biscayne Bay after they heard a loud bang.
	Police initially said the nature of her injuries, which were awful, and the fact they could not find anyone in the apartment building who knew her, led them to believe she might have fallen from an aircraft.
	So that investigation is ongoing, and we will keep you updated.
	Once again, Richard C. Hoagland from the mountains of New Mexico, near Albuquerque, where I bet there might even be snow on the ground by now.
	Every time you have rain, we have snow.
	Yep.
	Unfortunately, I have a nice fireplace and lots of wood, and I'm discovering what one does with lots of ashes.
	Well, I'm actually rediscovering, because I used to know and it took a while to come back to me, but
	we figured out some ways of recycling the ashes.
	Richard, I have a fax here from Lewin, Scottsdale, Arizona.
	And you are, of course, familiar with Arthur C. Clark's latest book, 3001, The Final Odyssey.
	Yes, I've got it. I haven't read it.
	All right. Well, you might want to begin with page 257 in the hardback edition,
	which appears to take a shot at you. It says, quote, The search for alien artifacts in the solar system should
	be a perfectly legitimate branch of science.
	Exoarchaeology.
	Unfortunately, it has been largely discredited by claims that such evidence already has been found and deliberately suppressed by NASA.
	It is incredible that anyone would believe such nonsense.
	Far more likely that the space agency would deliberately fake E.T.
	artifacts to solve its budget problems.
	Well, again, 3010 is a fictional, you know, and I don't know who the character is that he is placing those words in the mouth of.
	Yes.
	But Arthur has been incredibly gracious.
	We've known each other You know, longer than I knew Gene Roddenberry, at least a quarter of a century, if not more.
	He has been extraordinarily gracious to acknowledge our Europa concept in 2010 in the novel.
	Indeed.
	And then in a little book called The Snows of Olympus, which had to do with Mars, where he not only again reiterates that he owes me a great debt for the Europa concept, which led, in essence, to 2010, both the novel and the film, But he also acknowledges the Mars Inquiry, and in his typical tongue-in-cheek fashion, he takes a very gentle poke, not just at me, but at the whole idea that this should not be looked at.
	And the problem with NASA is that for the last 15, 20, 25 years, they haven't looked.
	You know, when they took these pictures in 76, the first thing you would think, given that Viking was a billion-dollar mission to look for life on Mars, is that there would be a systematic Scientific appraisal.
	Is this just tricks of light and shadow?
	Is it, you know, the clouds of Berengaria 7, to quote from Star Trek?
	Or is it, in fact, the MacGuffin?
	Have we really found it?
	And what independent investigators, apart from myself, have found, particularly people like Dr. Stan McDaniel, who was the chairman of the Department of Philosophy at Sonoma State University, and who several years ago launched into his own very sophisticated, very extensive epistemological investigation of this very issue.
	What McDaniel came to the conclusion regarding was that NASA not only did not do the scientific thing but they kept stonewalling and stalling and coming up with excuses and he now has a website where basically in terms of his epistemological background he grapples with NASA almost on a daily basis for why even on the current mission it is not prioritized.
	There is no specific scientific plan All right.
	All right, but Richard, there is still, I would like you to address this.
	NASA, as you know, believes that they have discovered life in a rock from Mars.
	They maintain that despite the recent findings of a university that would suggest there is no life there.
	The worms are not worms or whatever.
	And NASA is standing by that.
	Now, that fits into this description of Arthur C. Clarke.
	In other words, they're saying life, which would feed the budget to get to Mars one way or the other, mechanically or with humans.
	And again, would you address Mr. Clark's assertion that it's far more likely the space agency would actually deliberately fake E.T.
	artifacts to solve its budget problems?
	How do you answer that?
	Well, again, that's kind of crawling into the minds of aliens.
	I mean, there are people who claim in the UFO discussion that, you know, well, if aliens were real, they would land on the White House lawn.
	This presumes to know the strategies and policies of people in positions of power.
	You would presume that if you find a Secretary of Commerce with a bullet hole in his head, you'd order an autopsy.
	You would think so.
	But in the last hour, you presented excellent evidence from Chris Ruddy, who, by the way, mutual friends have tried to arrange to put us together because of his investigations of Vince Foster's death, which we're going to get into later in the evening, which, it turns out, may in fact be connected with the NASA discussions that we're having.
	Um, a lot of things that government appears should do, it doesn't do.
	For reasons that only come out 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years later.
	It's true.
	Alright Richard, you have a website.
	For the new listeners, um, what is, what would you consider to be, whether it's Mars, or the Moon, or even the more recent Mars pictures, What is the best evidence, if people go up to my website and jump over to yours right now, and they're looking around, what should they look for?
	Well, later tonight, in the next couple of hours, we're going to have a geologist who's part of our Enterprise family on, Ron Nix.
	I just want to give him a little lead here.
	Yep.
	Ron Nix has been a geologist for over 35 years.
	He has numerous, you know, backgrounds in EPA and Engineering Geology, and he's worked, you know, on contracts with the DOD, and he actually was a member of the staff of Parsons Engineering, the CEO of which was killed in the plane crash with Ron Brown a couple of years ago.
	Really?
	Yeah, and he will address, from his perspective, some of the things that have come to light tonight, I'm sure.
	The point is that Ron Nix has looked at this evidence, a possible non-geological Uh, landforms, i.e.
	artifacts, intelligently created artifacts by somebody for the last several years.
	He originally, uh, wrote me a letter.
	This was many years ago.
	He'd read the Monuments of Mars, which is kind of the flagship of our investigation, which is now in its fourth edition and is available through our website and through your website.
	Um, and, and Ron had some very serious misgivings about the geological analyses even then, That NASA has put forward for the so-called Cydonia region, where the pyramids and the space on Mars and all those things are located.
	In the years since, particularly in the last six months, since he and I have been working diligently on the analysis of the latest mission, the Pathfinder mission, the Lander mission, in July of this year, he has come from a position of, shall we say, moderate skepticism, to moderate interest, to high interest, In the Intelligence Hypothesis, and he is now rating the possibility of intelligent artifacts on Mars as investigated by the Enterprise Mission Team as over 90%.
	Alright, we will of course get to that, but again, what should they go look for?
	Well, click on his name on your website and it will take you to a paper which he has just updated and finished tonight, which is put on our website, which includes a stunning Panoramic photograph released by somebody in NASA.
	We're calling them the leakers, the guys inside that want us to know the truth.
	Which is an exquisite high-resolution image of the near field, meaning the stuff around the Pathfinder lander.
	Yes.
	And the far field, meaning the stuff out at the horizon, including this conical hill that in Ron's geological estimation, really he has to bend over backwards and stand upside down on his head To call it a hill anymore, because it, for all the world, looks like an artificially constructed pyramid arcology.
	I've got to say to my eye, it looks that way as well, to what I've seen.
	That really is true.
	You have not seen the latest images.
	Well, I've got a computer right next to me.
	They are stunning, all right?
	And what we have been able to do is to put them through a program, which we had to go kind of on the underground and procure.
	It's the same program that NASA used To de-blur the Hubble images some years ago?
	Oh, yes.
	It's called a Maximum Entropy Deconvolution Program.
	And by the time we put these images through that program, when you go to the website and look at the twin peak analyses, and both peaks, left and right, north and south, if anybody doubts that there is orthogonal rectilinear construction out there, they're not looking at the same image.
	And Ron will in the next couple hours, when he comes on, All right.
	I want everybody to go ahead and start up there and take a look, and then you will hear Ron Nix describe it.
	Now, I want to return you to the moment of aerobraking and the problem with the current mission, because, of course, they could take, with the current mission, very high-resolution photographs of the Cydonia area.
	So, you got right up to the point where you said there was a problem.
	There was a problem.
	We have two missions at Mars tonight.
	We have the Pathfinder on the surface with the rover Sojourner, which has dropped dead.
	It's dead.
	It is history.
	It is no longer with us, or so we are told.
	Okay.
	We have in orbit tonight a spacecraft called Mars Surveyor with two wing-like solar panels dipping through the atmosphere, but in a very gingerly fashion because, as I said before the break, a few weeks ago, NASA claimed that they'd suddenly encountered a technical problem, a glitch, And the rate of aerobraking they initially envisioned, which would have placed the spacecraft in a proper orbit to take photographs to commence the scientific mission proper, officially, in March of next year, had to be delayed one full year, Art, till March of 1999.
	A year?
	A year.
	Now, that means, and I've got technical experts who are part of our Enterprise family doing the celestial mechanics calculations, Including an old friend of ours, Tom Van Flandern.
	Who, by the way, is calling me up and now asking conspiratorial questions.
	He is becoming more and more suspicious of the stated things coming out of NASA.
	And as you know, Tom has been very loath to critique The politics, and has preferred to remain neutral.
	Sure.
	And to basically remain on the side of, well, if they're not looking, it's because scientifically they can't support the idea of looking.
	All right.
	Richard, I am not a rocket scientist, but they've sent several missions to Mars, and in those they have measured carefully during descent the atmosphere of Mars.
	Yep.
	Now, what part of this don't I understand?
	In other words, they understood the density of the atmosphere at various levels.
	How could they make a mistake, such a big one, with the aerobraking procedure?
	That's an excellent non-technical question, Art.
	You got to the heart of the problem, because in the initial 45-hour orbit, it takes you, what, 24 hours to climb up to Apogee, and then 24 hours to fall back down to Perigee.
	Right, right.
	In that 24 hours, NASA claimed that the atmospheric density of Mars had doubled.
	What?
	They're doubled, yes.
	Double, thereby causing severe strains on the spacecraft, exceeding engineering limits, and causing them to put on hold this technique of airbraking.
	When they decided to reinstitute it, they decided on a much more conservative approach.
	Well, I understand that, but take me back, please, and tell me how the atmosphere doubles?
	Um, that's an interesting question, which is, with our data, not resolvable.
	Now, there are ways that you can get heating of the upper atmosphere.
	If there was a solar event, alright?
	Solar flares or solar disturbances can heat the upper atmosphere of all planets.
	Causing them to expand, correct?
	Causing them to expand, increasing air resistance and all that.
	The problem is there was no solar event to trigger the so-called inflation of the Martian atmosphere.
	It looks as if, if you're being very, very suspicious, that this is a technical answer to a political question.
	To give them the year's grace, where basically with no press and no one like you watching, NASA can do anything it damn well wants to with this mission and we'll never know.
	In other words, they can take pictures in secret, find out if in fact the ruins are as extensive as we have been positing for the last several years, and then decide politically, in 1999, whether they want to bite the bullet.
	And what I have Dr. Van Flandern doing, because he was the head of the Celestial Mechanics Branch at the U.S.
	Naval Observatory for many years, is calculating when, in this reduced-orbit deceleration mode, the orbit will walk its way back up north so that it reaches Periapsis over the Cydonia site, thereby allowing them to take high-resolution pictures, but not necessarily sharing them with anybody.
	Let's go back to Pathfinder for a moment.
	So, the audience never has heard you.
	The Pathfinder is a little guy who ran around on Mars and took pictures of things near and far.
	In several of the photographs that you have, you claim there is nearly undeniable evidence that there are manufactured items to be seen.
	Well, as you know, when Ron comes on, not only are we claiming it, but he is now claiming it based on his experience, and we have widened our net.
	We are in discussion with several other geologists of significant background who are looking at these images and who are saying to us privately, good grief, somebody ought to do something about this.
	Now, publicly, we have the problem that we live in a very, very sole source atmosphere for scientific research.
	You basically, if you're a scientist today, if you're a professional member of the trade, there's only one place you can go to get funding.
	That's the federal government.
	You do not, at least if you're, you know, wanting to keep your kids in college, you do not bite the hand that feeds you.
	So what our problem is, is that we've had a lot of geology experts looking at these pictures and saying, gosh, you know, guys, you really are onto something here.
	This, this bothers me a lot.
	But to get them to come public, now we're working on several, We're probably in the mode where in the next several weeks when we do our next show, you will probably have more guests who will authenticate and verify and support our position that NASA full well with full foreknowledge landed Pathfinder in the middle of an ancient city, a second complex, not Cydonia, but located at specifically
	19.5 degrees north of the equator.
	Which it is, yeah.
	A latitude which is incredibly significant in our research, as you will hear as the morning progresses.
	And to put straight on, landed right in the middle of what is left of a debris field of an ancient civilization, yes?
	Some of which appears to have been tossed out or eroded out or exploded out by catastrophic processes from those two peaks, which are not peaks at all, which look in fact like vast enclosed former condominiums that are called technically
	arcologies for Architectural ecology at the term coined by the architects
	Paulo Solari some years ago in Italy. I Have a piece of breaking news from the New York Times in
	front of me Which says the Pathfinder robot uncovered evidence that
	Mars was once warm moist and very much like Earth
	Much more like Earth than its forbidding surface might now suggest
	All of this is quote a shot in the arm for the possibility of finding evidence of life on the red
	planet of According to one researcher, the body of evidence returned by Pathfinder is suggestive that conditions had been conducive for the formation of life early in Mars history.
	Now, that's an interesting story that would seem to support the possibility there could have once been life, maybe even intelligent life, on that planet.
	Well, this, of course, is the model that life originated on Mars.
	And in our hypothesis, and in our, you know, 15 plus years of investigation, we have held that there are three possibilities.
	If you're looking down from orbit, and you see ruins, and you verify to your own satisfaction, you know, with colleagues, that they really are ruins, you've got three ways to explain them.
	One is, they came from someplace else.
	Somebody visited the solar system, and because they came from a solar system where they, you know, evolved on a Mars, meaning a Mars-type planet, as opposed to Earth, that the environment, particularly the gravity, was more conducive for them to hang out at Mars, and so that's where they put their base and colonies and decided to set up housekeeping.
	That's theory number one.
	Theory number two is that they are indigenous Martians, that we, in fact, are looking At the relics of an ancient epoch when Mars created life, it evolved up the evolutionary ladder, developed intelligence and technology... Supported by this story, and we're about out of time.
	Number three?
	It came from Earth.
	So we're looking at some interesting epoch in previous terrestrial civilization, a la Hancock and Baval, that we're not the first high-tech civilization, we're part of a series of cycles of rise and destruction, rise and destruction, And we could be looking at our own stuff.
	At our own stuff.
	Hang tight, Richard.
	We'll be right back.
	Richard C. Oakland from the mountains near Albuquerque is my guest.
	More to come.
	From this is Coast to Coast AM.
	That's 1-800-825-5033.
	Now, here again is Art Bell.
	Once again, here I am.
	Good morning, everybody.
	That's 1-800-825-5033.
	Now, here again is Art Bell.
	Once again, here I am. Good morning, everybody.
	Hour one was with Chris Ruddy and an absolutely shocking story about Ron Brown.
	It's on the website.
	If you go to www.artbell.com, this one's going to break wide open.
	You can read all about it.
	Just go down and click on Chris Ruddy.
	Our number two began with Richard C. Hoagland and will continue with him.
	Before this night is over, You will hear not just from Richard, but you will hear supporting evidence from a geologist named Ron Nix.
	You will also hear from Steve Bassett, who will be speaking to some degree for Dr. Stephen Greer of CSETI.
	So we will continue with all of that in a moment.
	All right, once again from the mountains of New Mexico, which I'm sure are white and about to get whiter.
	Another big storm is on the way to the west here is Richard C. Hoagland.
	Richard, I've got a fax here from Randall Berry in Big Sandy, Tennessee, and I think I think it bears the asking.
	You mentioned three possibilities with regard to life on Mars.
	That somebody came from elsewhere and colonized Mars, that life was at one time indigenous to Mars, and option three, that we were on Mars.
	Let me ask this.
	If these artifacts are the result of intelligent life, any three of those scenarios, why would NASA or the U.S.
	government attempt to keep them secret?
	Richard?
	Oh no.
	Oh no.
	Where's Richard?
	Oh, what a wonderful build-up I just did, and Richard seems to have slipped through a crack.
	So what I'm going to do is run some sort of extra commercial here, I think.
	We'll get a little bit ahead on commercials, and we will get Richard back on the line again.
	Hello?
	Richard?
	Yes.
	You are there!
	Yes, well, something happened.
	Yeah, you weren't there.
	I could hear you on the air, but I couldn't hear you through the phone.
	Weird.
	Anyway.
	All right.
	But I did hear the question.
	Well then, good.
	So any three of those scenarios, why?
	This gets to the heart of the matter.
	Yes, good.
	And the answer is, we have a document.
	This investigation has been ongoing for 15 years, you know.
	Remember, I used to work with Walter, and he always used to tell us, you know, document, document, document.
	I did get an angstrom.
	You don't get angstroms for, you know, kind of hanging out and just chewing peanut butter.
	Right.
	We have found as part of our investigation, and this moves us now from the scientific, which we can pick up in the next couple hours when Ron joins us, to the political.
	Because really tonight I want to focus on the political.
	People are not going to be convinced in a few minutes on the air hearing me describe artifacts.
	They've got to go to the website, they need to look at the evidence itself, the photographs, the analyses and all that.
	But what we need to talk about is the politics.
	Why would NASA hide this?
	It turns out that when NASA was formed 30 plus years ago, almost now 40 years ago, a few months after it was formed in July of 1958 by edict of then President Eisenhower, it actually turned to the Brookings Institution, a private think tank, very well respected and renowned in Washington, just up the street there, And it asked the Brookings people to put together a team of NASA and other experts from all over the country, from Case Western Reserve, from the UN, from Harvard, from MIT, from Caltech, from private industry, and basically spend a couple of years studying the effects of the space program on the long-range future, not only of NASA, but of the United States.
	And this became known as the Brookings Report, alright?
	We have a copy.
	We found a copy of this report, which is the official report of this year-long plus study, commissioned by NASA, turned over to the Congress during the Kennedy Administration in April of 1961.
	We have a copy.
	The copy was found in, of all places, a Little Rock Federal Archive.
	Alright?
	It also exists, we now know, in Chicago, in Los Angeles, and any other Federal Archive.
	And we have it on our website.
	If you want to find what it says, go to our website, through your website, click on the Brookings Report, and you'll find a summary, particularly of the key pages, that I'm going to quote from now.
	In this report, which was a voluminous study, several hundred pages, several thousand footnotes, with experts from all over the country looking at what NASA should do and what the impact might be on all of us in the so-called out years, there was a section devoted to the implications of the discovery of extraterrestrial life.
	Remember, this is back in 1959.
	Gotcha.
	In this section, there are two stunning phrases that are most critical to the answer to that question.
	One was, it said that it is probable, and I use the words probable, that in the next 20 years, and it specifically says 20 years from the position of 59, NASA will probably find evidence of Extraterrestrial life either on the Moon, Mars, or Venus.
	It projected this based on its surveys and polls of the experts in 59, 20 years down the road.
	Okay.
	59, 69, 79.
	Its conclusions then, if this should occur.
	If this should occur, it then said, and I'm paraphrasing now, serious consideration should be given to withholding this information from the American people.
	Because?
	Because.
	It says specifically, and Margaret Mead was a part of this study, and I worked with Margaret Mead.
	When I was at the American Museum of Natural History, in the astronomy department, running the planetarium, she was at the other end of the complex, there on 82nd Street, in her tower office, stalking around with her big walking stick, grappling with anthropological questions.
	She was part of the study, and her experience had been in American Samoa.
	A primitive culture destroyed by contact with a quote superior culture.
	It was the mead influence on the Brookings Report which apparently colored and has colored all NASA policy from then to now because the study said that the fear of revealing this to the American people was predicated on the fear of the destruction of civilization in the mode of American Samoa In other words, if we were to contact or even run into information relevant to a higher level society than ours, our culture would be decimated per the experience of Margaret Mead and others of her ilk.
	And so, in the New York Times, for December 15th, above the fold, a headline read, Government report says civilization doomed if E.T.'
	's discovered.
	Or something to the effect.
	I forget the exact headline.
	This is a... Okay.
	And so, in other words, they're saying... We have that headline, by the way, and that story from the New York Times on our website as well.
	I understand.
	And people can see it right now if they wish.
	Now, Richard, this is the one area where you and I over the years have disagreed.
	You know what?
	I still agree with the conclusion of that report, Richard.
	Then you basically agree that NASA had every reason to withhold information if it ever found the evidence.
	I think that's right.
	I know, I really do.
	I think that's right.
	I mean, I'm willing to sit here and investigate away with you because I do an open radio program, but I think if it were suddenly revealed To the American people, that there had been people who had been before, extraterrestrials, actually, either from Earth or any of the other locations you mentioned on Mars, or that we had had long-distant ancestors, Richard, who were spacefaring people, it would so upset scientific and religious paradigms that it could bring a lot crashing down around our heads.
	Yes, sir, I believe that.
	Okay, it's interesting that you phrased your response in that way, because there was a key part of what you just said, Art, that I think is the crucial nubbin of the problem.
	You said, if it was suddenly revealed.
	Yes, sir.
	It is now 17 years and counting.
	No, 27 years and counting.
	Alright, 21 years.
	Well, I happen to believe there is a slow but sure effort to Desensitize the American people to that sort of news.
	To the shock?
	Yep.
	And to begin to bring us into the fold to acculturate the entire culture to accept the concept of aliens or previous history or all of these possibilities.
	Yes, sir.
	If that's true, then that would explain in one fell swoop why we are getting deliberate, specific, stunning leaks of artifactual imagery Out of the Pathfinder team without a press conference.
	And has it occurred to you that you may be a key component in that slow warming of the water around us?
	Well, not only has it occurred to me, but I hope to damn well it is, because we were invited, as you know, five times over the course of this investigation, since 1983 on, by different NASA centers.
	Some of them over and over again.
	To present the ongoing, continuing investigation of Enterprise to the NASA Ames Research Center, to the Goddard Space Flight Center, to the NASA Lewis Research Center.
	And it did occur to us at some point that we were looking at what's called in Washington, plausible deniability.
	In fact, what was really striking was when I was invited to present our data in the early 90s to the NASA Lewis team, not once, not twice, but three times.
	The first time we were given the red carpet treatment by the director of the lab, Dr. Kleinberg, and I was invited to address the entire lab from the prestige of the main auditorium.
	For the thousand scientists and engineers who could attend, that was all well and good, but we also discovered that there were something like 5,000 additional scientists and engineers around the center Who were not only watching us on closed-circuit television, but they had been given official government ID numbers so they could charge the time off spent watching television to the government of the United States.
	We were then told, as I'm sitting there in the front row waiting to be introduced, and Dr. Kleinberg climbs the stage and makes his usual kind of ceremonial introductions they do of invited guests, VIPs, That it was because of our research art.
	He specifically said, and we have the audio tape of this, which we can make available to people if they doubt my word.
	We would have had a videotape, but something funny happened to the video.
	Anyway, Dr. Kleinberg, in his introduction, said that I was responsible, that this investigation, that Richard C. Hogan was responsible, for the impetus behind George Bush's Moon-Mars Initiative to return to Mars as soon as possible.
	This was in 1991.
	Now, when we got the video, and ABC News got their copy of the video, those particular remarks had been erased from the tape.
	We were told there had been two simultaneous tape failures, so they didn't reach the news media.
	However, we had one of our folks in the audience with an audio tape recorder, and we have the audio tape of Dr. Kleinberg's very gracious remarks.
	And it was a surprise to me because I had never talked to George Bush and didn't know that our investigation was the reason why, according to an official NASA director of a major center, we were going back to Mars.
	I think I can buy the model that this is time-release aspirin.
	What I can't buy is the fact that there appears to be a concerted, deliberate effort by other folks, either in or out of government.
	We don't know where it's coming from.
	To sabotage and directly kill the investigation, and that's some of what I want to talk about tonight.
	Because it appears to be part of a broader effort by someone, again either in or out of government, to destroy critical records.
	And that's what Steve Greer is going to talk about in the next segment.
	Beginning with this National Archives debacle that Linda Howe promulgated on your program a couple weeks ago, which appears to be part of a pattern.
	Where someone may be wanting to get the American people and the world up to speed, that we're not alone, but somebody else appears to be diametrically opposed and doing some very nasty underhanded things to keep this investigation from proceeding.
	Alright, you just did the same thing I did.
	Stephen Greer is not going to be here, but rather Steve Bassett.
	Did I say Greer?
	You did.
	It's because we had a conference call after Steve at the Hestive Enterprise went over to the National Archives.
	And as part of that conference call, Stephen Greer revealed some very important information that Steve Bassett is going to announce tonight vis-a-vis official inquiries into some of the things that we are discussing.
	For the information of the new audience, Stephen Bassett is actually the only UFO or ufologist who is an official A lobbyist in Washington, D.C.
	for that specific cause, and for people like Dr. Stephen Greer.
	And he'll be coming up after the bottom of the hour.
	So there is some news then from Stephen Greer, and there is more news on the destruction of these records.
	Can you give us a very brief outline, Richard, on what was destroyed, and who did it, and how come?
	Well, it appears that because we're overflowing in paper in Washington, that each of the lead agencies, you know, Navy, NASA, Agriculture, DOD, whatever, puts on a list a set of documents that they claim they don't need anymore.
	And they and the people of the National Archive, which are a very limited staff, sit down and kind of discuss the schedule And some of these schedules are literally decades in the making.
	In other words, stuff that was slated for destruction a decade ago could be arriving at the shredders tomorrow, alright?
	The procedure is that they're not supposed to destroy anything that's, quote, valuable.
	But the telephone records of the TVA in 1932, we probably don't need anymore, alright?
	Somehow, in this normal procedure, there is supposed to be a notification 90 days before destruction is to commence.
	To the agency which has got its consignment en route to the shredders.
	And the notification is supposed to basically be a kind of a heads up, like, okay guys, we're about to do this.
	Are you really sure you want us to destroy these records?
	Right.
	And the agency is supposed to respond if it doesn't.
	One of the key problems that Steve discovered in this procedure when he sat down with the head of the archives a couple days ago at our behest Was that there is no fail-safe where the agency has to respond yes or no.
	If it doesn't respond, in other words, if the archives does not get a, no we don't want you to do it, the archives proceeds as planned.
	Which is really dumb management.
	Because you know the old dog ate my homework problem?
	Yes.
	Suppose the memo somehow gets lost.
	Well in this case, The memo went to Naval Central Command, not the Naval Research Laboratory, whose records were destroyed.
	2,500 cubic feet, 4,000 priceless original notebooks of scientists from the 1920s on, including the Genesis of the American Space Program, the Viking rocket experiments with the so-called, you know, nice Nazis, the Germans that we brought over after World War II, the V-2 experiments, the beginning of Project Vanguard, the transition from the Naval Research Laboratory to NASA, because NASA was basically formed out of the Naval Research Laboratory, kind of cloned off a major piece, and that became NASA, and the head of the NRL became the
	One of the key officials in the early NASA, Dr. Hover Newell, who I in fact knew and worked with at some length when I was in the museum in Springfield.
	The point is, there was no fail-safe.
	So these records, beginning a year ago from the Naval Research Laboratory, what Admiral Geffen, who is the chief now of the Naval Research Laboratory, has claimed was the corporate memory of the Naval Research Laboratory, It sailed merrily into the shredders beginning a year ago in December of 1996.
	Including development of radar, I believe?
	Radar, sonar, the early space program, probably polar research, anything the Navy was involved in in terms of science.
	There was 2,500 cubic feet, 600 boxes, 4,000 plus notebooks.
	You know, scientists take down their notes in laboratory notebooks.
	These original notebooks somehow got slated for destruction A decade ago, and the systems simply collapsed, and they all went to the shredder and then got pulped.
	Well, the current head of the NRL wrote an angry letter, a two-page angry letter, which I have a copy of because Steve got it this afternoon from the Admiral and faxed it to me, basically blowing the whistle.
	If it hadn't been for the Admiral blowing the whistle, we wouldn't even know that this had occurred.
	Apparently, it was discovered in July of this year on or about July 20th?
	Well, as you know, Linda Moulton Howe kicked this off, really, with an interview with the Archivist, who, and I can't quite accurately characterize the way he answered her questions, but he was very tentative and very sheepish, and I think, as you said earlier in the day to me, he wants to be on the side of the gods on this one, but the answers were insufficient.
	Well, it turns out that the Archive has very tiny staff with which to tackle a problem such as this.
	That, in fact, it's the agencies themselves which decide what gets destroyed and what doesn't.
	There is no real overview by the Archive.
	So if an agency, for instance, there's a whole carload of stuff from NASA headed for the Shredder tonight, even as we speak, which Steve will address.
	If we try to find out what's in that consignment to save it, we can't.
	If it's classified or it's privileged information, the agencies and basically them alone decide what gets shredded, which means we have, in essence, a license to steal.
	If there is an ulterior motive on the part of someone either in or out of government, it doesn't have to be an agency.
	It can be a handful of people in the agency who know there's a consignment of, you know, the phone records.
	Well, Richard, one thing's for sure.
	You can't revise history until you destroy the evidence of the real thing.
	Precisely.
	And so on that note, hold on.
	When we come back, Steve Bassett will be here.
	I'm Art Bell and this is Coast to Coast AM.
	If you're not staying up to listen to me, you really don't know what you're missing.
	This is Art Bell.
	And our all-night coast-to-coast program is an experience.
	It's talk radio with no safety net.
	You never know who's gonna call in next, what they're gonna say, and how I'm gonna handle it.
	Weeknights, it's Coast to Coast with me, Art Bell.
	Dreamland is an area in Nevada.
	Dreamland is also a radio show which comes from Nevada.
	I know because I'm Art Bell's host of Dreamland, the radio show, not the place.
	On Dreamland, we talk about strange, unusual things.
	Some might even call them weird.
	Join me right here for Dreamland.
	Dial 1-800-618-8255.
	Dial 1-800-618-8255. That's 1-800-618-8255. Now again, here's our...
	Once again, here I am, incidentally.
	I'm in a chatroom on America Online right now, the Grassy Knoll chatroom.
	If you get to America Online, simply go to keyword, enter Art Bell, A-R-T-B-E-L-L, then click on the Grassy Knoll chatroom, and you will find a number of people in there discussing what we are discussing this night.
	I'm kind of lurking around, obviously busy, but watching what's going on in there.
	My guest is Richard C. Hoagland.
	Joining us in a moment is Stephen Bassett, the nation's only ufologist, who is an actual lobbyist in Washington, D.C., on that issue.
	Coming up in a moment.
	Okay, once again, back to Richard C. Hoagland.
	Richard?
	Yes, sir.
	Here comes Stephen Bassett, and I'm going to let you develop this with Stephen.
	Well, incredibly important historical records regarding our nation's early development of so much technology have been destroyed or are being destroyed.
	That's where we are.
	Steve, welcome to the program from Washington, D.C.
	Thanks, Art.
	Well, let me do a little setup here.
	The way I got onto this, obviously, was I happened to be in Phoenix a couple weeks ago, and I tuned in your program, Art, which I normally don't get a chance to do, which is Dreamland.
	And I heard Linda describing this god-awful situation, and it was one of these things where, wait a minute, this has to be science fiction, this can't be for real.
	We have not destroyed 4,000 original notebooks of scientists participating in fundamental technological and basic scientific discoveries from the 20s on, and we just put them through a shredder.
	I mean, I thought I was hearing something.
	And needless to say, I was hearing correctly.
	So, a couple days later, I called Steve, who is one of our ABLE associates, along with representing several other independent research groups in Washington, and I laid out the scenario that this had to obviously be further investigated.
	And Stephen picked up the phone and called the National Archives, and you take it from there, Stephen.
	Yeah, actually before I did that I went to Art's website and revisited Linda Motenhow's
	report on his Real Audio Archives. Then I called them, called the archives. I then got
	a meeting the next day with Michael Miller, who is the Director of Records Management
	over there, which was a very revealing meeting I will discuss at length. When I was finished
	with that I immediately pulled together a telephone conference call with all of the
	research groups that I am representing. The point I'd like to make about that is that
	this is a perfect example of how the developing research network, along with the developing
	internet network and other computer technology and radio and telephone are now at our disposal
	and are helping to put increasing pressure on this government timeline of disclosure.
	This kind of power simply wasn't there 30 years ago when the last hearings were held, if you recall back in 66.
	So we're able to move much faster now when something like this happens, and get to the root of things, and try to have some impact.
	And that's starting to add up.
	Having said that, and again, Linda deserves tremendous credit here for getting this going.
	I want to clarify one other thing, then I'll get going here.
	In addition to Steven Greer and C-SETI, in that conference call was of course Richard Bob Dean and Cecilia Dean from Stargate International, Larry Bryant representing Citizens Against UFO Secrecy, and Dan Pinchas was representing Operation Right to Know.
	And we had a very thorough conversation about what we might do or what's possible with respect to this issue.
	But first of all, let me go right to the heart of the thing.
	This thing is actually a little odder than you might think.
	There's some strangeness to this, and I know how much you like strangeness, Art, so I'm not going to disappoint you.
	Okay.
	Let me tell you why it's strange.
	You see, the National... There is a process of destruction which has been going on for years, and it's necessary because the government generates billions of documents.
	There's nothing unusual there.
	Every agency has arrangements with the National Archives, and the NRL does, too.
	And the fact of the matter is that long before these records were to be destroyed, representatives from the NRL met with representatives of the Archives in appropriate fashion, and they set up standards and criteria by which this process would take place.
	In fact, a 70-page analytical report was put together.
	In fact, one of the people from the NRL, I actually have a name that was a representative from there, was part of this process and still works at the NRL.
	I believe his name is Dean Bundy.
	Other representatives at NRL are Mr. Cuaron and Judy Barnes.
	So, the fact is the NRL was not out of the loop at all.
	So, once this is done, then these records are essentially all the records that are part of this pipeline.
	are are in some some transit process and they're they they did get someplace and
	they're they're part of a destruction process but they still exist they're still available to the nrl and
	and can be pulled up for whatever reason an f o a request or
	something nrl wants to do the the understanding known to all parties is that ninety
	days prior to any group of records to be
	destroyed on a recycling obsession because they have i'm not so that i cycle of
	destruction In other words, they're not going all the time.
	They have like a cycle that they run through, and they've run through three cycles since December of 96.
	They send out Uh, a, a, uh, notification.
	Now, it doesn't go to the NRL directly.
	It goes to Navy Central.
	And Navy is big, and things can get lost.
	But the fact is, this is an established and known process, and there'd never been a problem before.
	That we know of.
	That, well, that the Archives... That's crucial, that we know of.
	That we know of.
	And when we did this with the Archives, it's stating there hadn't been a problem before.
	Obviously, there hadn't been a problem in which an admiral had sent out a letter like this and made it public.
	What then happened was that they had gotten contact from the NRL indicating there might be a problem.
	They looked at this and they were working it out behind the scenes where this would normally happen when all of a sudden they're blindsided by this letter which was sent out on the 13th of November.
	This shocked them quite a bit.
	My take on this, and I'll be very frank, I believe the National Archives is a scapegoat here.
	It is not the culprit.
	And it is not where we should be directing our combination at all.
	These people are in the business of preserving records and processing records.
	That's what they do.
	That is their life.
	And I believe that the last thing any of these people want to do is destroy records which could have enormous historical value.
	It's simply not comprehensible to me that they would do that.
	They are absolutely understaffed, and they are underfunded.
	And this is hardly surprising.
	I mean, you can imagine, given that we generate billions of records, far more than anyone could imagine, and there's obviously very little priority for really spending a lot of money in dealing with that fact.
	And that's always been the case, that there's never been a UFO in our skies.
	So these people are in the middle.
	Fine.
	So, all of a sudden, here comes this letter from the Admiral.
	Well, this raises a very great concern on many levels.
	But the first one is certainly this.
	In fact, there's three points I want to raise here.
	The first point is this.
	There's three points that come out of this that I think your listeners have got to get down.
	Point one, that there are countless numbers of government officials working in all agencies, including the government, including the military, including the intelligence group.
	Who have full careers, they've got families, they've got spouses, they take soccer on the weekend, they don't have much time to read, they don't watch much television, and they don't know anything about the UFO situation, the phenomena, the evidence, or even the government posture.
	And why is that important?
	Because, because they don't know.
	And as we know, the media has really gone out of its way to give them high-level information on this.
	It's very possible that things could go on and they're simply out of the loop.
	They have no idea and they're going to act in accordance with standard procedures and do terrible damage and never know it.
	And we have to remind ourselves of this all the time because we are steeped in this stuff.
	We know it very well.
	Steven, let me stop you there.
	Yeah.
	The documents that were destroyed were not UFO or fringy stuff.
	They were the core corporate memory of the Naval Research Laboratory, which for most
	of this century has been the central research organ of the United States government.
	Oh yeah, let's be clear about that.
	We have no information whatsoever that there was any specific UFO evidence lost in there.
	And in fact, even the significant event, clearly on the...
	But we do know this is about NASA and the origin of the V2 rocket program in this country
	and the Viking program and the first satellite and a lot of other things was destroyed and
	that's part of the paper trail that Enterprise is following.
	Oh yeah.
	I mean, we have no specific evidence that anything directly impacts UFO evidence, but we know that the material is clearly in the ballpark.
	Alright?
	But the reason I'm raising this point is that this highlights the fact that there are a lot of things going on in the government that could fall into this category, where people that simply are not knowledgeable Well, this is the next point that's come out of this that needs to be disseminated broadly, and I'll tell you what I've been doing to try to do that, and that is, is that, interestingly enough, we have a records process in our country which is based upon trust.
	damage to getting rid of shall we say embarrassing records could slip one over
	on the honest guys because the honest guys are too busy to really be tracking
	the farm well this is the next point that's come out of this that needs to be
	disseminated broadly and I'll tell you what I've been doing to try to do that
	and that is is that interestingly enough we have a records process in our country
	which is based upon trust virtually totally on trust And unfortunately, trust is not something, or the basis for trust is in somewhat limited supply right now.
	Meaning that, the government, we've always known the government calls the shots on the release of records.
	That's why the FOIA request fundamentally could never produce a smoking gun.
	They always determine what you finally get, and they can redact it if they so choose.
	Well, it turns out records destruction is the same way.
	The government decides what it's going to destroy.
	It sets up the process to do it.
	It uses the archives to fill that process.
	It has the ability to move classified material directly to the destruction pipeline so that it goes from classified to gone and never declassified and available to us.
	Very interesting, isn't it?
	It goes from classified to gone?
	It can.
	Not all stuff is classified.
	But a lot of it can be.
	Now, you say, well, that's no big deal.
	If you want to get it, you file an FOIA.
	Of course, if you don't know exactly what you're looking for, you may never pinpoint that particular document, and it works its way through.
	Now, this point came up in my meeting with Michael Miller, which, by the way, was very long, and he was very gracious and very comprehensive in his remarks to me.
	He took very careful notes.
	He's very concerned about this.
	I told him, quite frankly, that I knew a number of UFO groups that would be more than happy to back semi-tractor trailers up to their docks tomorrow and take any such documents that they would schedule for destruction and we would be happy to store them and so forth and so forth.
	And you know what he said to me?
	He said, you know, that has happened in the past.
	Stephen, may I interrupt?
	Absolutely.
	You said things can go from classified to destroyed.
	Yeah.
	I could understand that unclassified documents on a regular basis would be reviewed and there would be some disruption.
	of records that are no longer relevant in any way to anything.
	But classified documents, you would think, because they were classified, there would be a particularly stringent procedure regarding their dissemination or destruction.
	Well, Art, guess what?
	In my earlier appearances, and we discussed at length the issue of the massive secrecy classification government that's built up during this Cold War period of 50 years, we generate billions of documents.
	We archive 2% And I mean we actually 2% actually is considered significant and then that's having disposed be disposed of and because we have we are classification security secret happy we classify so much stuff
	It's inconceivable that we could actually run through some elaborate process of declassification to public availability.
	Hell, we can't even get the Nixon tapes.
	What, it's been 20 years?
	Those things would be coming out to our grandchildren.
	Or the autopsy of John Kennedy.
	Or anything.
	It's a massive process.
	They have classification.
	They move it on out.
	Now, the problem here is that the way it's done is that the schedules are set up, notification is given.
	It's fatally flawed to begin with because the notification is based upon an act of omission, which obviously is not a good thing, except in one case.
	It is perfectly set up for any agency to maneuver some material into the pipeline.
	Part of the process.
	We're talking boxes and boxes and boxes of stuff.
	The archive is only able to sample one or two documents in a batch.
	It's not their job.
	How do they destroy them?
	Get them in there and they're destroyed along with everything else.
	but then if in fact anybody squawks, if some UFO searcher turns up and says,
	oh no, you destroyed the absolute evidence of the Roswell crash,
	or if anybody else turns up and says you've done something terrible,
	they can then say, oh, we never got the letter, and blame the archives.
	So in other words, as we move to this, you know the timeline that we're on,
	which I've told you several times, March 99th is I believe the target date
	for disclosure by the government.
	As this timeline winds down, and as people start to get a little worried
	about where they fall in all this, or whatever their agenda is,
	there is a potential for a scorch earth policy to develop.
	And the way this process is set up, they can utilize the system, utilize the archives,
	and then use the archives as a scapegoat if anything is raised or a question is raised.
	This is a bad deal for the archives, it is a bad deal for the UFO community,
	it is a bad deal for the American public.
	Now, one of the things I was about to get to was that is that I.
	I know Richard right now knows people that would back those trucks up tomorrow and would have for these documents.
	Richard would personally go up there.
	He would personally go up there and I would drive him up there.
	The point is... Well, Richard already has taken a team of eight of our experts in a variety of fields and a couple of years ago we swooped down on the National Space Science Data Center outside of Washington and spent two days going through the photographic archives of the Apollo and Lunar And, you know, unmanned lunar orbiter and then the Mars data.
	And we found extraordinary problems and discrepancies and missing film.
	And then we found film that was in such a bad state of degradation that we physically offered to raise the $20,000 to replace it from the original, presumably kept in the vacuum bowl in Houston.
	And a few days after we made the offer, suddenly NASA headquarters coughed up the money And so the film archive got replaced because we made an on-site visit.
	There is a precedent for what Steve and I have been discussing.
	But what he told me was that while some groups in the past have been able to take some documents... This is Miller, right?
	Yes, Miller's telling me that some groups that did take some documents were going to be destroyed and simply took them off the government's hands.
	Unfortunately, they have to get the agency's approval to do it.
	And if it's classified, you can't get them at all unless you file an FOIA.
	But now you're filing an FOIA against documents that are in a destruction pipeline.
	They aren't in the archives at all.
	They're actually out at the Federal Records Center.
	Alright?
	And guess what?
	Or in a boxcar headed there.
	What, sir?
	Or in a boxcar headed there.
	Well, I don't know about boxcars, but there's also regional Federal Records Centers.
	So what does that mean?
	It means that records that are out there pertinent to places like Area 51, Uh, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, you name it, they go out through the process at the regional centers.
	So once they get into this destruction process, they're not available to browse through, whether they're even classified or not.
	You can't get them anyway unless you know what you're looking for.
	They're sitting in record centers waiting to be sent out by a process of omission.
	This is virtually a blueprint for an historical document disaster.
	Now, let me make it clear.
	99.9% of the stuff that's going out there needs to go out there, or this country's going to turn into a landfill.
	The point I'm making is that you and I, and a lot of other people know, we're in the middle of one of the most important historical transitions of all time.
	History is happening.
	We know it.
	Some people don't.
	After history has happened, and we have crossed the paradigm line, and the historians look back, they're going to be looking at all those people that could have helped to save these records.
	The ones that, the good ones, the ones that pertain to this issue, and didn't.
	And I don't want to be one that says, hey, I didn't do anything.
	Because it's going to be a disaster if those records are destroyed because people are worried about their positions or their agendas.
	Well, you know, I think it's even more pointed, Stephen.
	You know, you are very optimistic and very, sometimes I think a bit Pollyanna that there is this inevitable rush to disclosure.
	The very documentation on which disclosure will be verified could be in the process of being destroyed to prevent disclosure.
	And that's a concept that I know is an estimate of a lot of people But I don't see the inevitability that suddenly the government is going to announce, oh, yes, by the way, boys and girls, we are not alone.
	There are ruins on Mars.
	Yes, the Apollo program did discover vast crystalline cities on the moon that we've been hiding for 30 years, etc., etc.
	I don't see bureaucrats and people in power behaving that way.
	Well, the point is that you're right.
	I mean, it could be that extreme where you literally have destruction, which is bent on preventing disclosure.
	Or if there's a war within the system.
	The leakers versus the suppressors, which is the model that I put forward, and we have a lot of evidence to back that up.
	The suppressors, if they keep, you know, destroying documents and intimidating people, they're in the process of winning!
	But the point I'm making, Richard, is beyond the issue of whether we get our way or we get the timeline we want, that there is the potential for documents to be destroyed either inadvertently or as a clean-up process, which, while it may not hinder the timeline that I'm envisioning, would still eliminate records that is from a purely ethical
	and moral standpoint we want to have.
	I mean the future is going to want to know everything about this period we're living in,
	every detail it can, certainly this pertinent UFO transition.
	All right gentlemen, we've got to hold it right there, relax. We'll be back after the top of the
	hour and again I'm reminded of, I don't know who it was the other day who told me,
	you know, here we are destroying records from 50 years ago.
	Critically important records documenting how we did what we did technically.
	And we can still go back and read stone tablets that were inscribed prior to the time of Christ.
	Who had it right?
	Well I'm making all the plans to get ready To realize what I have found
	I have been only half of what I am I have been only half of what I am
	That's area code 702-727-1222.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
	That's area code 702-727-1222.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
	The Kingdom of Nye is Nye County, Nevada, where I broadcast from.
	I'm Mr. X from Santa Rosa, California.
	Facts is art.
	It's like fireworks over the radio waves.
	Great show.
	Stephen Bassett is here.
	Richard Hoagland is here.
	Richard and Steve are discussing the destruction of documents, aren't we?
	Also, I just want to drop this in for all of you.
	There has been a phone call I received the last day or two from Egypt, from Cairo.
	From Boris Saeed.
	And Boris has information so sensitive that we were going to put him on the air from Egypt.
	But the situation there now is deteriorated so badly that it would be quite dangerous for him to do so from Egypt.
	He'll be back in the U.S.
	on Tuesday.
	We'll probably be scheduling a show next week with Boris Saeed.
	And I wish I could tell you more right now.
	I do have the information, but For his own safety, we can't do that.
	Look for that program next week.
	Tomorrow night, I would like to remind the audience that we've got kind of a follow-up show on what's going on with the sun, our sun.
	Charles Cagle will be here, the CEO of Singularity Technologies.
	He's been on once before, along with Stan Dale from Perth, Australia.
	That will be tomorrow night on the program.
	In a moment, we'll get back to Richard and Stephen.
	Just smart.
	Stephen Bassett is the nation's only ufologist, or actually, I guess I should say, the nation's only lobbyist for various ufology groups.
	Well, let me make a couple of points.
	we have him here this evening with us this morning along with richard c
	hoagland and we should gentleman develop whatever you want to
	develop over the next uh...
	segment uh... because i think we want to bring in ron nix toward the bottom of
	this hour so richard uh... point us well let me make a couple points uh... steven and i have a
	a friendly gentleman's disagreement on a very important point which is
	steven seems to be over on some kind of inevitable railway track to quote
	disclosure issue, which includes ruins, you know, what NASA's found and has kept hidden from us, you know, potential things like Roswell, potential contact between the U.S.
	government and aliens, abductions, the whole nine yards.
	It's all going to fall out of the closet on some kind of railway track.
	My position is... Gradually or suddenly?
	Well, he is saying that March of 1999 is Kennedy Day.
	He's gone on record and said that that's, you know, and it's a very honest, open position and he has good credentials to have from his own perspective.
	Richard, maybe we ought to ask him why he believes that.
	Well, let's clarify.
	I'm not saying that there is a D-Day, but rather I believe that the process that's going on in D.C., what I'm seeing, I don't think can continue beyond March without arriving at that point.
	All right, I believe we are in a gradual sort of conditioning also, Richard, so in a way I agree with him.
	Well, I would like to know on the basis, gentlemen, where you think we're in this gradual conditioning, because from our own perspective from Enterprise, as I said to you on the phone and we're going to get into, In the last probably hour of the program, for the last year Enterprise, which is doing the hard-based scientific research, imaging and other hard science geological analyses of the NASA database showing unequivocal evidence now of ruins all over the damn solar system that we've explored, we have run into the most incredible buzzsaw of disinformation
	Secret agents, major confrontations and efforts to derail our investigation, some of which I'm going to lay out for the first time for the national audience tonight.
	And the idea that we're going to somehow automatically have the door thrown open with this kind of intensive, down, nitty-gritty, dirty, confrontational opposition, I just don't see it.
	And let me tell you why this whole discussion of documents is so crucial.
	One of the threads that we are now following is the group that may be responsible within the agency, within NASA, for hiding the evidence of artifacts from Apollo onward, alright?
	And we seem to be zeroing in on a disturbing set of data tending to point toward, and I'll use the term, the Nazi faction.
	NASA was formed in part from a group of Germans brought over and put into, you know, straightjacket or into harness by this government in an effort to make them tame Nazis, pet Nazis, and to serve the national interest.
	If it weren't for the records process, if it weren't for diligent historians saving documents as part of the archive, I would not have in my hands the military service record of Wernher von Braun.
	We would not know, for instance, that Wernher von Braun was in fact an accredited member of the SS.
	He was a Major.
	Look, Richard, I think we all agree on one thing at least, and that is this destruction of critical documents is insane.
	But the reason it's insane is not because we're going to have historians that want to look back and kind of put the, you know, dot the T's and cross the I's or vice versa.
	It's part of the way you get at the truth.
	On the first hour of this program tonight, you had Chris Ruddy, a damn good investigative journalist, Pulitzer Prize winner, formerly at the New York Times, no longer there for reasons that are kind of interesting.
	And what he basically said is that the x-rays taken of Ron Brown have been destroyed.
	They have been replaced with fake x-rays.
	No, that's true, and he's got the evidence.
	That is why records are crucial.
	He's got the evidence.
	He's got the goods.
	He's got pictures of the original x-rays.
	The only reason he's got it is because an honest guy in the U.S.
	military who believes in the Constitution He fought well enough to save a private set of those records to himself and then provide it to an investigative journalist.
	If that honest individual, that Lieutenant Colonel I believe, did not exist, we would never be discussing the potential of Ron Brown's murder tonight.
	So to Steve, with all due respect to my dear friend, unless we get these documents, we're not going to have a paradigm shift.
	It's that simple.
	Well, I'll tell you, Richard is not somebody I would want to debate without having at least two margaritas.
	And since I haven't had that luxury tonight, I won't do it.
	But let me, let's address, let me go back to some of the things that have transpired in the last week, which somewhat supports Richard's view here.
	When we had the Paradigm Research Group teleconference on, I think it was Tuesday, Stephen Greer was particularly vocal about his concern about records.
	And one of the reasons is pretty, pretty Easy, and that is that he has had, and I've said this before, but let me reiterate it again, he has met in the last, I mean he's met many people for the last 3-5 years, but in just the last 12 months, he has met with fairly high up members of the Executive Staff of the White House.
	Of the White House?
	He has met with two sitting Congressional Committee Chair people.
	He has met with the Intel representatives of the full Joint Chiefs of Staff.
	We've met with a former CIA director, and another range of fairly high mucky mucks in this town.
	One of the reasons why I'm concerned about this NRL thing is that I am very much concerned that one of the reasons that the NRL suddenly is jumping on the National Archives Is because somebody whose bell got rung by Stephen Greer in his meeting, somebody high up the food chain, decided to look into some things and went to the NRL and said, uh, look, let me have some records from this period.
	The NRL said, gee, we'd love to tell you, but they're destroyed.
	And this person raised the roof, and rather than say, well, uh, you know, we're sorry about that, they just said, well, we'll just blame the National Archives, sent out a letter.
	But I'm purely theorizing here, but one thing I'm not theorizing about is that Stephen has made it quite clear That on numerous occasions people he has briefed who have then gone on on their own after this briefing to sort of check into some things have come back to him either in a subsequent briefing or by other contact and indicated, well, you know, I looked into some things and I was quite surprised to find that the records are gone.
	The Empty File Syndrome, as I think Stan likes to refer to it.
	And for those who doubt that this occurs, Congressman Schiff from New Mexico did a very serious investigation through the GAO of the whole Roswell incident, and lo and behold, how many records, Stephen, were missing from that?
	The records in question were very interesting records.
	They were the entire phone records, in and out phone records from Roswell during that
	period.
	And the interesting thing about that is that in terms of managing that whole scenario in
	1947, the one thing that would be virtually impossible to finesse would have been the
	phone records.
	Meaning that if you had those conversations, even if there wasn't a smoking gun, the mosaic
	of those phone conversations would have probably corroborated one theory or the other.
	Either the government or the UFO research team.
	I merely mention this to validate the concept that records of important events are simply gone.
	I mean, there were a tremendous... How many... What was the volume of records?
	Do you know offhand, Steven?
	You mean Amir Roswell?
	Yes, sir.
	We're talking thousands and thousands of phone records.
	Other records weren't necessarily gone, but those were.
	It was the fact that it was those records, and those were very incriminating.
	They had previous records, they had records after that, but those records were gone, gone.
	This is now a pattern that's clearly there.
	Now, the interesting thing about this is that I've known about this.
	I've been talking to Steven Greer for two years.
	The point is, is that I've always sort of made the assumption, very naively, that yeah, they're missing, but they got them somewhere.
	You know, they pulled them.
	They're in a vault somewhere.
	I mean, they know about history, too.
	They know history is important.
	They think they're going to be vindicated.
	It never occurred to me they might actually destroy them.
	Well, that's the Alexandria Library all over again.
	Now, this has happened in history.
	The criticality.
	You get an adversarial thing going between two groups, and one group decides to destroy a bunch of stuff in order to cover itself.
	We don't need that to happen here.
	The criticality of records is absolutely unimpeachable.
	Tonight, ABC did a two-hour special with Peter Jennings detailing the dark side of the Kennedy years.
	They call it the dangerous world of John Kennedy.
	And what was critically interesting was how many times they turned to White House phone records, FBI memos, Justice Department files on Giancano, etc., etc., to buttress their case.
	Without records, you do not have a case in today's world.
	Because most people don't know how to do scientific research, which is why they keep asking us if we can find bleakers or memos from NASA acknowledging there are ruins all over the solar system, as opposed to looking at the photographs and drawing their own conclusions.
	The paper trail for journalists in the latter part of the 20th century is the only valid mechanism of arriving at the truth.
	So that paper trail is being destroyed even as we talk tonight.
	And another way to cast it is this.
	Aside from my difference with Richard, I believe that as we are in the final stages of this endgame, there is a significant risk of a scorched earth policy.
	And if that is the case, then we need to do something.
	The people I work with are going to get together, we're going to have more conferences on the phone, we're going to try to come up with ideas on how to staunch this process.
	But one thing immediately comes to mind, it's a matter I've raised before.
	The UFO community, research community, independent research, whatever you want to call it, needs to find ways to get on the public record.
	Regarding amnesty for government officials, past, present, living, and dead.
	There you go.
	Meaning that, look, we're going to hold you harmless.
	We're not going to file suits.
	We're not going to support the idea of filing suits.
	We're not going to support the idea of legal actions and criminal actions.
	We're not going to play the blame game.
	We understand that there's a complex process.
	Look, just get on with disclosure.
	We don't support that.
	And if we could get on record, we could take some of the pressure off some of these government entities To perhaps lower their resistance to this process, and more importantly, not go destroying documents out of fear.
	In other words, my allegiance to history, I think the reason we're doing all this is not simply to serve our own interests, meaning, I gotta know, I gotta know, but rather because we think something important is happening and we want it to be done right.
	And right means you don't destroy the records of something this major for the rest of humanity to be able to review and understand 1,000 years from now.
	I mean, that's just obscene.
	And so this forced-earth policy, I think, is actually starting to happen, and it scares me to death.
	When I heard what Linda Motenhau had said, the light went off in my head, and I said, yeah, I'm knocking on the doors here.
	And they're probably throwing the stuff out into the incinerator and going, wait a minute.
	It kind of reminds you of the UN investigation teams in Iraq where the satellite images show that when the team comes in the front door, Saddam Hussein has backed up the truck to the back door.
	That's right.
	Exactly right.
	Well, I think we all agree on the horrid nature of what's going on, Stephen.
	and while we have you on the air, what do we do about it?
	Alright, well look, one thing I would suggest is this.
	First of all, keep that petition process going, folks.
	Keep downloading that petition, keep filling it out, because the petition moves towards congressional hearings,
	and the hearings is going to bring disclosure, and it's going to help stop the process.
	That's point one. Point two, I would go ahead and contact the White House,
	whatever means is appropriate, the email, phone, whatever you want to do,
	send them a letter.
	And I would sort of throw out the idea, let's put a trial balloon out,
	of a possible moratorium on records destruction regarding certain genre.
	And what I mean by that is records regarding space program, military intelligence, military research, air force research, certainly everything pertaining to major bases of controversy such as Wright-Patterson and Area 51.
	Let's put a moratorium on them and don't destroy them.
	Let me interject something here.
	What was really interesting to me in our conversation with Greer was how forthcoming he was with how high his conversations have gone on the ET UFO issue.
	In this White House.
	To reiterate, he, uh, Stephen Greer, has told you both in a conference call that he is in contact with White House-level people.
	He has actually named names which we're not going to mention tonight because that is sensitive, but those are names that a lot of people would recognize if we were to use them.
	Now, this is critical.
	Those people, in turn, apparently have gone looking for those conversations in key files And reported back, there's nothing in the files, Stephen.
	What do you mean?
	So there is a very receptive political climate for Americans listening to us tonight.
	If you write, and I would recommend faxing or writing so you have your own hard copy record.
	Don't phone, because phone records can go away.
	Send a fax or write a letter to the President and simply say, Mr. President, this is unconscionable.
	History is being destroyed.
	Please put an executive order into place calling for a moratorium until there can be an appropriate congressional oversight as to how we preserve this crucial evidence for material.
	Maybe we ought to cause, ask people to carve this in stone tablets instead.
	One of the things I'm doing is I have sent copies of the Admiral Admiral Gaffney's, let me make sure I've got that name correct, Like to make mistakes like that.
	Admiral Paul G. Gaffney, who is the Rear Admiral, Chief of Naval Research.
	I've sent copies of that letter to every talk show in this town.
	I've sent it to the Post, USA Today.
	I've sent it to most of the key magazine shows.
	I've made it clear I'm available to discuss the issue.
	There's other people that can discuss the issue.
	This needs to get aired.
	Again, let me interject.
	When this story broke, it was an AP story that flagged Linda's attention.
	A tiny one, too.
	Linda then came to you, Art, and you put her on coast-to-coast on Dreamland.
	There has been no other national attention on this stunning story by the Times, the Post, CNN, whatever.
	There was a little tiny story, a reprint of the AP story, in the Baltimore Sun, which is not exactly news central for the Inside the Beltway in Washington.
	Alright, this is a big story.
	Now, how do we direct the press?
	Steve, would you be the right avenue for that?
	Well, anybody, you know, anybody wants to Anybody wants to contact me on this in the press?
	Okay.
	Hello, press out there.
	You want a Pulitzer Prize?
	Give me a call!
	Get in touch with me by email.
	ParadigmRG at AOL.com.
	But let me make a point about the press.
	I mentioned this before.
	Let me follow up something I've talked to you before.
	Look, two major dailies in this country I have been in contact with.
	Fairly high level.
	Guarding a full out meeting with the representatives of the witness pool.
	Private, behind the scenes, no risk, no nonsense.
	So they can have an informed body of information to make a decision about major investigative journalism.
	Both of these papers are standing pat right now.
	And it's irritating me because the media is constantly doing this on a range of issues now.
	But I'll tell you, the pressure is going to remain on them, and one of these papers is going to move pretty soon.
	Only a matter of time.
	Look Steve, we've got the New York Times listening right now, the LA Times, the Big East, the Chicago sometimes, they're all listening.
	Again, again, hold on Richard, how did they get hold of you?
	I think the best way is to go to ParadigmRG at AOL.com.
	They can certainly fax me at 301- 301? Go ahead, I'm sorry, 301-
	301-564-4066.
	Okay, we'll get that on again.
	Stephen, I want to thank you for being with us tonight.
	We've got to get to Ron Nix, but we'll get this phone number out again, all right?
	A pleasure as always, Art.
	Take care, my friend.
	Richard, hold on.
	Good night, Steve.
	Good night, Steve, indeed.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	I'm a man of the sea.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	This is Coast to Coast AM from the Kingdom of Nye with Art Bell.
	That's the place, all right.
	Good morning, everybody.
	Richard C. Hoagland is my guest.
	Coming up, a geologist who has looked at Richard's work.
	With regard to the ruins, or what are thought to be ruins on Mars, and you'll hear an expert's comments in a moment.
	Area 51, the alien interview.
	Now, Richard C. Hoagland and now a geologist, Ron Nix.
	And gentlemen, we've got a lot of information to get out in a short amount of time here.
	So Ron, would you give us briefly your background as a geologist, please?
	I'm a registered geologist in the states of California and Oregon, a member of the American Institute of Professional Geologists.
	I've worked for over 30 years in the field as a geologist and also in the office, if you will, managing geologic works for the Department of Energy as well as private So you're a rigor geologist?
	Yes.
	All right.
	You somehow got mixed up with Richard.
	necessary to build bridges and dams and power lines and pipelines and high-rise buildings
	and things like that.
	So you're a rigor geologist.
	Yes.
	All right.
	You somehow got mixed up with Richard.
	Richard Hoagland has been documenting what he believes to be ruins of any three, take
	your choice, of prior civilization, somebody from elsewhere, or perhaps even us.
	But ruins, nevertheless, ruins on Mars.
	Let me stop you there.
	It's not just me.
	I've had a whole team of people.
	People like Mark Corlato and Errol Torn at Defense Mapping.
	Yes.
	I mean, there's been a vast segment of multidisciplinary specialists, including myself.
	I mean, I'm not just chop liver either.
	But we've all been looking at this, and it's like the Indians looking at the elephant.
	Everybody looking at this has a little bit different take on it.
	And I'm constantly inviting in new people, new blood, so that we can expand the resource pool.
	And Ron and some of his colleagues have been the latest of a long litany of experts in a variety of expertise to join our team.
	Alright, fair enough.
	Ron, you have gone through a metamorphosis with regard to how you view what Richard claims and what you have been looking at.
	Can you describe that for us?
	In other words, you have looked at Richard's photographs and this change has occurred in you.
	Describe it.
	Alright, first of all, it's important to understand that it's not only Richard's stuff that I have looked at.
	I always want to go back to the original.
	The only way I can get it is to download it myself from the AIMS site.
	Whatever Richard does with it, with whatever programs he's got, it's fine.
	I will look at those things too and give him my opinion.
	But my opinions, before I would share them with you or the public, Also include a fairly close review and evaluation of the original, if you will, document.
	The raw data.
	That's correct.
	In the very beginning, a great deal of skepticism about this.
	I mean, there's some pretty fantastic claims and weird things that go way beyond geology.
	I try to just stay in my geology box because that's what I know something about.
	And even in trying to do that, I began to find questions, especially if you tend to
	step back and take a look at some of these things in a more abstract way.
	And what do I mean by that?
	You mentioned earlier something about a New York Times article talking about, you know, now softening us up.
	There may have been life there, or it may have been an atmosphere, or maybe more lush at some time in the past on Mars.
	Correct.
	Well, you know, if you kind of look at it, what I mean by looking at it abstract, if you kind of look at that as a geologist, you could say, well, that's not news, that sort of thing.
	You could have come up with decades ago.
	The planet's red.
	What causes that?
	Well, on Earth, what typically causes that is oxidation of iron.
	Well, key word's oxidation.
	Oxygen is a pretty corrosive agent.
	Where's the oxygen?
	There isn't any up there now to speak of.
	It certainly wouldn't support us.
	So, guys, sometime in the past there might have been some oxygen up there.
	Maybe a lot of it.
	Indeed.
	Okay.
	So the question is, where do we have red stuff here?
	And what is it?
	Well, in our Triassic, our Mesozoic Red Bits, at times when this land was much more lush and wet than it is now, at least in the desert southwest.
	Golly, there they are!
	Like I said, that's the abstracting, as opposed to getting down to the nitty gritty and discussing some particular detail of the chemistry of a particular rock.
	I approach it from a little different angle, and in general, that's an example of the way I look at these things.
	In my looking, I have come on a path of more and more and more being convinced That I'm looking at something for which I have no natural analog, Your Honor.
	No physical analog.
	Now, you're looking at, again, the raw data, not the enhanced stuff that Richard does.
	Both.
	Both, alright.
	But mainly coming to your conclusions based on the raw data.
	Or at least the ones that you're willing to put your name to.
	That's correct.
	If I see something that Richard has done that looks like a gee whiz, I'll go back and look at the raw data and see if I can see a hint of that in the raw data to see that, well, okay, it's only amplified here or it's brighter or the edges are sharper or whatever in what he's done, but I can still see this thing in the raw data.
	That's the type of a test I do on it.
	Maybe it's been emphasized by some by some high resolution program or whatever, I still want
	to go back to the raw data, the raw image if you will.
	And from that point, if I can see it in that, and I can see it in what Richard's done, I
	say to myself, well, he hasn't added it to it, he hasn't done anything, it's there, but
	whatever he's done has enhanced what I can still see in the raw data.
	All right.
	Richard has found some shocking, shocking things in some of these photographs, and while you may not agree with his conclusions regarding all of them, to what degree of certainty are you now willing to state that These are some of them at the very least some of them are not natural.
	Let me give you a qualified short answer okay and give me the opportunity to explain briefly the qualifications.
	Sure.
	The qualified short answer is 90%.
	90% that's correct.
	What I will do here also to cut to the chase because time is short and for your listeners Most of what I discuss, you can find on a little four page presentation that I put together to be put on the web.
	And in that presentation, you will find at the end of it, five conclusions.
	And if you like, Art, we can launch off on any one of these particular conclusions and I can discuss them, whichever ones interest you more.
	Alright.
	First of all, first conclusion was that there's more similarities between the structure and composition of North Peak and South Peak than I first thought.
	If you recall, I thought the North Peak clearly showed some orthogonal structure and I was a little bit, well, you know, you can see little changes in coloration and stuff like that.
	Define orthogonal, Ron.
	Huh?
	You must define orthogonal.
	Well, square, like stacked shoeboxes or bricks, okay?
	Orthogonal, things that vertical, horizontal, intersect each other at 90 degrees.
	Rectangular.
	That's correct.
	The second thing is the similarities between the two peaks centered around an understanding of these orthogonal structures that are present in both features.
	But they're present in an anomalous arrangement.
	I mean, you can see them stacked.
	They're complex, but they're not random.
	They're not chaotic.
	And there's a symmetry to them.
	If you'll recall our first conversation, Art, we talked about the south peak, which is the pointy one.
	There was a break in slope there, and yet you could see the angle of that hill continue below that break in slope.
	Yes.
	Even on the very first images.
	Well, in the high-resolution images that came out on the 4th of November, the reason for that is strikingly clear.
	You can see what looks like a series of blocks that are stair-step type blocks.
	Like looking at the edge of the Great Pyramid at Giza?
	Well, it's very much like that.
	But before I jump to make that leap of...
	of faith to what it might be.
	Well, that's the analog I'm using.
	That's correct.
	That would be the analog.
	That's right.
	But I'm looking for trying to find the natural ways to explain these things.
	On Earth, we have conical hills.
	That's not that big a deal.
	They tend to be shaped by erosion.
	We find on Earth a lot of the features that you see geomorphologically.
	For example, a butte or a mesa.
	What is it?
	Well, it's flat on top, got some vertical sides to it, the orthogonal structure again.
	And if you look at the components of that, you'll go up and sure enough, you'll find some horizontal bids and perhaps some vertical joint sets that are creating that shape, that orthogonal shape.
	Which are all around me tonight here in New Mexico.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	Now, the difficult thing to explain is, if you've got a conical hill, You now have a conical or pyramidal type shape that's made out of a bunch of things that are rectangular.
	Now, that's not naturally found, that I'm aware of.
	You don't find conical hills that are rectangular, especially where the rectangular features are along the edges of the hill, because the edges are what would erode first.
	And it's the erosion at the surface, the edges, that finally subdues the topography and the sharpness and erodes it and makes the smoothness of it and finally the hill disappears as a result of erosion.
	But because the edges are where the erosion is going to occur, it's hard for me to understand how we get a series of rectangular blocks stacked up like stair steps along the edge of this slope in a natural situation.
	The analog that comes to mind immediately is, Richard said it, you know, looks like either.
	Well, but I'm trying to find a natural solution for this.
	And what I'm saying is, I'm having difficulty doing that.
	Alright.
	Ron, I'm bound and determined to do this and I want to ask you if it would be a good thing to do.
	I live here, as you know, in the desert.
	Cactus country, serious cactus country.
	I've got lizards as neighbors, that sort of thing.
	The landscape here looks kind of like Mars.
	Yes.
	And I have thought several times, why not take a 35 millimeter photograph of some of my landscape and submit it to you?
	Well, as I stood at the intersection of the main highway that comes into Pahrump and the road that goes off to where you live, Art, I turned around and looked north.
	And there are some marvelous fall block mountains there.
	Yes.
	Wonderful things.
	And it's very, you can see very clear lineations.
	They don't happen to be horizontal, okay?
	They happen to be tilted up at an angle because of the nature of the Basin Range Province and fall block types of mountains.
	Correct.
	All right, but you can still trace these bits by coloration or they stand out more.
	They're a little less erosive.
	They may be like a band that you can see come right down across these hills in little valleys and out little hills on the mountain itself.
	You can just trace these bands right along, right down into the alluvium.
	You can see them just fine.
	You don't see, however, anything vertically or cutting those bands at 90 degrees from standing at that intersection looking north at those spectacular mountains in the Bird Spring Range.
	You don't see major features similar to those that, again, they're at an angle, but you know, so what?
	You don't see things at 90 degrees to those that have the same striking characteristic, do you?
	No.
	But you do see that on these two hills.
	Indeed you do.
	And that photograph, by the way, folks, is on my website right now.
	Go look.
	Go click on Ron Nick's name at www.artbell.com and take a look for yourself.
	What should they specifically look for, Ron?
	I'm not sure I know exactly which image is up there.
	Richard can tell you.
	It's the Maxent November 4th image.
	Well, look over at the left edge of the South Peak, which is the one with the point top.
	And follow down from the top of that peak right to the break in slope at the horizon.
	Go below that, right on the same angle as you're coming down that conical shape.
	And you will note, just keep coming down, you will note that all of a sudden you begin to get into a series of rectilinear things shaped like shoeboxes or bricks, okay, that are stacked in single fashion, like the same way you would lay a course of bricks.
	You would lay a brick and then the next brick, the next course would be halfway over, you know, so there would be a stair step.
	Okay.
	And it looks just like that.
	You can see that.
	down at the lower end of that angle.
	Okay, Ron, it's very impressive to me that you say these things as a professional.
	My next obvious question to you would be, science, I think, is submitting findings to colleagues
	and getting verification and having your findings tested.
	Now, I know that it's tough to get people to go public, but you have talked to other geologists, people in your field, privately.
	What are you being told?
	Well, one of them told me, my God, why doesn't somebody do something?
	And it was like, you know, what do you think I'm trying to get you to do?
	Another one, and Al Cantor says, but I'll explain that too.
	And Al Cantor, he says, well, I see some unusual things, but I'm not ready to say that they are forms that are manufactured.
	I said, fair enough.
	However, consider this.
	You are a PhD who has Look at this, probably two or three hours, and you have immediately recognized that there is something unusual, and you do not have a stock answer for what these could be, what it could be.
	Granted, you haven't had an opportunity to do your homework, and as a result of that, I accept your observation.
	But don't overlook the fact that within a very short period of time, you immediately home ride in on what is unusual.
	So that's what some of these folks are saying.
	Do you accept the fact that there are members of the public who will go to the website and they will look at what you have described without educated eyes and say, what a bunch of crap.
	Yeah.
	These are rocks.
	Absolutely.
	So they've got to look very hard and they've got to pay attention to what you're saying.
	Absolutely.
	And we're talking about something a geologist would understand, but a casual viewer Might not.
	As a casual viewer, take a look at... This has always been a problem, Ron, with Richard, because it's so apparent to him.
	He's been looking at these things for so long.
	He goes, look, look!
	There it is!
	But, you know, everybody else looks and goes, huh?
	Yeah, it looks like a rock to me.
	Yeah, that's right.
	If you get an opportunity, you or your listeners, take a look again at 80881.
	All right, that was the very first pan.
	And right in the middle of that image, right off of the lander, between what is the lander and Twin Peaks, just there in the foreground, just kind of step back and look at that image.
	You will see a bunch of rocks.
	And there's a few of them, however, that look like blocks.
	Now, how does that really happen?
	We are told, and this orthogonal structure, you know, they look like blocks.
	They're square, rectangular, they have edges and corners at 90 degrees.
	And there's more than one of them.
	And they're oriented in different ways, in a chaotic arrangement in the foreground.
	Well, just how does that happen?
	Now we're told that these deposits are floodplain deposits, which is reasonable,
	ostensibly from hundreds of miles away from the Martian highlands in a massive catastrophic event.
	And this stuff is all, you know, rafted down and plopped down there,
	and the water goes away, and what you see is what you get.
	Why isn't it that?
	Well, now think about those blocks that you see.
	Take a look at them.
	You have to look at 80881.
	Not the product of a floodplain.
	Well, why aren't they broken up?
	Why aren't the corners knocked off?
	They've traveled hundreds of miles in a catastrophic flood and yet everything else around You know, many things around there look very much like what you'd expect in a flat.
	There's all kinds of irregular shapes and angular shapes, but here sit these blocks.
	And they're orthogonal.
	And their edges, excuse me, and their corners are, for the most part, intact.
	That's difficult for me to explain.
	Alright, Ron, while we still have you, are you interested in other geologists of note taking a look at your work?
	Oh, absolutely!
	Absolutely.
	How would they contact you?
	You can get me through the Enterprise Mission site.
	Alright, which is available through my site.
	Right, absolutely.
	Alright gentlemen, hold on.
	We will do, in some markets, a final hour.
	My guests are Richard C. Hoagland and geologist Ron Nix.
	If you have interest in following up on what you've just heard, Go to my website and find Ron Nick's name or Richard Hoagland's name, particularly if you're a geologist, somebody willing to assist in a fascinating project, and contact them by all means.
	That is science.
	Science is a critical look at somebody's findings.
	Not necessarily endeavoring to simply tear it apart, but a critical look.
	So we invite you to do that.
	My website is www.artbell.com.
	Be patient, it's kind of loaded this morning.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
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	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	We are the ones.
	Good morning, everybody.
	We've got Richard C. Hoagland on the Enterprise mission and Ron Nix, a geologist.
	And we will, before this hour is out, begin to get phone calls, so keep the faith.
	4, 3, 8.
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	Alright, tomorrow night we're going to have Charles Cagle and Stan Dale from Perth, Australia with us and we are going to be discussing our sun and some recent revelations regarding our sun and the current solar cycle 23 that will sort of fill in some blanks With regard to what Major Dames had to say, with regard to what Father Malachi Martin had to say, and many others.
	So we're going to do a follow-up on that tomorrow evening.
	Right now, back to Richard C. Hoagland and our geologist, Ron Nix.
	Ron, I think you wanted to make some rather important points here before we let you go.
	Well, if you recall early on last summer, There was a press conference when Dr. Peter Smith, one of the principal investigators for the mission, postulated a couple of geologic scenarios for the creation of Twin Peaks, or at least with regard to what he also recognized as some geologic, perhaps, structure.
	It was the North Peak he was talking about in particular at that time, where you have these horizontal lines.
	And the postulations at that time, he posited, Perhaps there are strand lines of debris left after the receding
	flood waters.
	Or maybe they're more like sedimentary beds, kind of like you might have in the Grand Canyon.
	And I certainly won't fault him for that.
	I mean, he was almost giving a real-time analysis right there.
	And those are certainly two plausible possibilities.
	The exciting thing was that he seemed excited about the fact that it was high priority to get a team of NASA geologists and people looking at this so that they could produce some information, something definitive with regard to the geology of those peaks.
	Sure.
	And yet, though it may be my fault, I can find nothing.
	This is December.
	I find nothing discussing the geology, really, of those twin peaks.
	Now, I got to thinking about that, and you know, I whined about that for several months, and I got to thinking about it as well.
	Golly, maybe NASA is doing exactly what they should do.
	In the absence of any treatise on geology, it might just be that geology is not the appropriate tool with which to describe those features.
	So, you know, they haven't gone out.
	For example, if they're architectural or engineered, It would be much akin to standing me in front of the World Trade Center and saying, Ron, say a few words in geology.
	It doesn't apply.
	And that might be the case.
	It may not be.
	Maybe tomorrow there'll be a 30-page treatise on the geology of Twin Peaks, which in case there is, I will read with great relish.
	But up to now there isn't, and so I kind of conclude that maybe they've come to the same conclusion, too.
	They're just not talking.
	That's possible.
	Ron, why don't you talk about some of the things in the near field, things that are within a few dozen feet of the lander that we now have really good, high-resolution views of, and frankly knock your socks off.
	Yeah, early on again I called some things pointy stuff.
	Things that are kind of spindly or pointed, like sticks or things sticking up from the surface.
	Some of these things now appear to be sticking up, if you will, in patterns.
	If you've ever seen a wire milk cage, something like a wire basket that you,
	you know, put regular basket-carry milk bottles and stuff in, there's stuff that looks like that.
	My thoughts were at first, well, you know, this is a computer compression problem.
	Well, indeed, you can see compression artifacts on that image, but it's very clear that that's what they are.
	These things, again, are rectilinear or orthogonal in nature.
	They are thin, like I said, like wire, like a cage.
	You could imagine a cage or bars or something.
	From the geologic point of view, I ask myself, again, here I am, ostensibly on a floodplain, which I agree that it is.
	How do things like that that appear to be more delicate, if you will, than rocks and boulders and cobbles and stuff like that, how do they survive?
	And how do they get there in the first place?
	How did they get there if they've been transported from The Highlands, where this stuff came from, and this massive catastrophic flood, how in the heck did they survive intact?
	And rocks do not make wire cages.
	Well, that's right.
	I mean, I don't know how to explain these things.
	Geologically.
	Right?
	And, uh... Ron, why don't you describe the impression of the Navy Lieutenant Commander who was looking at the screen one day with you, a construction geologist, and the impressions, the first instant impressions he had looking at 80881?
	Oh, and he says, it looks like Berlin, it looks like after the war, like you're in the middle of a dump, rubble everywhere.
	And that was just the first thing off the top of his head when he looked at it.
	And he designed rubble.
	Right, and I explained to him, well, You're halfway right.
	It is rubble in large part.
	But this chaotic mixture of material has some rather elegant expressions where you can find things that clearly are rubble.
	Some of them are angular.
	Some of them are rounded.
	And yet, here you have these marvelous orthogonal blocks out there, too.
	Where did they come from?
	How did they get transported as far as they did?
	Maybe they weren't transported that far.
	Maybe they came from the Twin Peaks.
	I don't know.
	But they're anomalous sitting there.
	It's difficult to explain them.
	There's several possibilities, none of which have any real clear answers.
	Ron, address the andesite chemistry.
	In the very, if you recall, some of the first chemical work that was done.
	With the rover, remember Art?
	They talked about high silica contents and somehow that got in ongoing discussions and Press conferences and captions on photos and what have you from the AIMS site.
	It got into quartz content, like quartz, SiO2, silicon dioxide.
	And then that got translated into, well, these rocks are like andesites.
	And I thought, wait a minute.
	Andesites are notoriously poor in quartz.
	Andesites are principally aplagioclases, which I apologize for all these words, they're just
	minerals, okay, names.
	Aplagioclase is principally a sodium calcium aluminum silicate, okay, and that silicate
	part is an SI, silicon and oxygen combination.
	Okay, there is oxygen, LDL and oxygen combined in that mineral.
	But they called these things andesites.
	Well now, even as of November 4th, it's being called andesite-like.
	That doesn't make any sense with regard to being andesites if there's quartz present.
	Because the oxygen and silicon that are in the plagioclase are wrapped up as the mineral plagioclase, not as the mineral quartz.
	And andesites are, again, notably low in quartz.
	By that I mean less than 10% probably.
	So, it's almost like, I don't know whether it's misinformation, if it's just the heat of the moment trying to explain something, explain what the rocks are.
	I mean, I can see how that might happen.
	An andesite is an extrusive or a rock that's deposited out on the surface in a molten type of fashion, a volcanic type of rock.
	There are volcanics on Mars, so I can see how that might happen.
	But I can't see how after several months they're still calling something andesite-like, and there's still some kind of indication that there's a quartz content to these things.
	Well, they do have some quartz, but if it doesn't have very much, it wouldn't be called an andesite, okay?
	And there's nothing to say that it was quartz.
	They just talked about silica, high silica content.
	So it's these sorts of things that are fairly detailed and get into the chemistry of it, but it still makes you scratch your head and say, why is this group of world-recognized experts...
	Making errors like that.
	Well, I think Richard can answer that one.
	Listen, Ron, we're going to cut it off right now, if we can, with you.
	There will be geologists contacting you, I guarantee it.
	Great.
	And I would like to have you, along with them, back on.
	Sure.
	And then we could underscore this whole thing and really drive it home.
	Sure.
	So, Ron, thank you for being here.
	You bet.
	Take care.
	Ron Nix, folks.
	And Richard, I've got a bulletin for you.
	Okay.
	This just now cleared the Associated Press wire.
	A military medical examiner said Thursday that an autopsy should have been performed on Commerce Secretary Ron Brown after he died in a plane crash to investigate a suspicious skull wound.
	Authorities considered but ruled out the possibility that Brown had been shot.
	No autopsy was performed and authorities concluded that Brown died of injuries sustained in the 96 crash in Croatia.
	Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Steve Cogswell, a deputy medical examiner at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, said Thursday he believes the head wound could have been caused by a bullet from a .45 caliber Gun.
	Talk about immediate reaction, Richard.
	That one just cleared the wires.
	Fantastic.
	So there you are.
	Occasionally, I guess, people listen.
	Well, there are two examples.
	The other night you had Commander Donaldson on, and he made the point that if 800 had exploded from the central fuel tank, etc., that the FAA should have sent out nationwide directives, actually worldwide directives, for corrective action on center fuel tanks.
	Did you notice, Art, the day after your show with Sam Donaldson, the FAA sent out those directives?
	I sure did.
	You are being listened to and watched very carefully which is why it's important that we continue to expand the knowledge pool on this show.
	I do agree, Richard.
	I'm just surprised that finally, and for a change, maybe we've become large enough that they are listening.
	It's good news, and it's good news really for you and people like Ron Nix as well.
	Before we reach the break, let me give out our Enterprise fax number in case people don't have a computer or they're a geologist that, you know, are fuddy-duddy with the keys.
	you can fax us at Enterprise at area code 505-771-0820.
	And of course that applies to anyone who has input or comment or critique or possibly another idea.
	But particularly, we'd like more professionals to join Ron and Torin and Carlotto and the legion of other experts that we've had involved now for 15 years in looking at this data and reaching their own conclusions.
	All right.
	Let's use the time we have now, between now and the bottom of the hour, to punctuate anything you would like to, and then let's go to open lines.
	Well, one of the key things that I need to announce tonight is why people are not going to be getting, before Christmas, the next video in the Enterprise Mission series.
	Okay.
	And the reason is that the tapes have been stolen.
	What?
	For the last year, and this is the thing that I wanted to get to, and I think we need to follow this up after the break.
	We have been subjected to the most interesting pattern of deceptive practices.
	and outright efforts to slow us down culminating with the theft of several crucial documents and videos, a good portion of our library.
	We have tried to bring people to justice and the cases have been dismissed by, among others, an assistant deputy district attorney in New York City under very strange and mysterious circumstances.
	And we are now fighting on three different legal fronts in New York, in New Mexico, and in California.
	And our legal bills are going through the roof.
	And as opposed to what they're doing with David Oates, which is outright burning him out or making death threats, what they appear to be trying to do with this investigation is to hamper us legally and financially to the point where we can't carry on the research that we need to carry on.
	Richard, from what location were they stolen?
	Um, it's a very long, complicated story, alright?
	The Phoenix tapes in particular were stolen from the people in Phoenix in whom they were entrusted.
	The people themselves stole them.
	And we tried to get them delivered to Francis Barwood.
	The reason they were restored in Phoenix is because after the Phoenix conference, We were looking seriously at doing the editing in Phoenix because of the historical and the archaeological and the fact that several participants were in Phoenix, and I wanted to have the availability of a studio there so we could bring people in and do these little inserts that I do in our tape series where we update people.
	Sure.
	We did the conference, but we learned new things during and even after, so I wanted to update, so we kept the tapes in Phoenix.
	Over the last six weeks, well actually beginning the night of September 11th, the night of the Pasadena Conference, such remarkable stuff hit the fan, culminating in Francis got a phone call from the people who had the tapes, insisting they would not deal with her as my representative there in Phoenix, because he wanted them to send them to her and then she would send them to us, but they would only deal with me.
	When I went to Phoenix and spent an entire week calling every single day, finally, on her phone, this representative called and talked to me, and it was recorded.
	We have the tape.
	And they claimed that the tapes were no longer in their possession, that they had sent them to a third party, and the third party is part of a major legal attack on us, and is basically holding the tapes hostage.
	And this has become a legal nightmare, but this is why people who have provided, you know, good faith monies for their next part of the series are not going to get the taste of For Christmas, because we now have to regroup and do something different in terms of the data set, because we do not have the Masters of the Phoenix Conference.
	They have been stolen.
	Oh, brother.
	Now, if these are not valuable, I mean, there are two reasons for stealing something.
	One is, if you think you can sell them on the bootleg market, which is kind of ridiculous, because the first time a tape came out, we would find out and we would hit them with a ton of bricks.
	Oh, of course.
	The other reason is political.
	And for people who have been listening to this entire evening, and those who are new to the network and who don't know the Enterprise investigation, one of the ways you gauge whether something is real is if somebody else thinks it's valuable enough to try to take away or to slow down.
	You may not understand the specifics of the data, but you can understand if somebody else would like to keep it from reaching the public venue.
	And that is precisely what has been happening for the last year, and I could regale you for the next 45 minutes with the tawdry details of the most incredible assault that I have not gone public with, because frankly, it's soap opera.
	The real focus should be and must remain on the data and the important political developments on that, you know, particular part of this investigation.
	The fact that now this has become a major hindrance, and in fact become a major financial hindrance, I've checked with our attorneys, and it turns out, by the way we owe them something like $20,000, alright?
	This is how expensive this has gotten.
	It turns out that if people would like to help defray the legal expenses, and to provide us an alternative means of bringing these people back together, So they can basically do in studio the kind of... All right, Richard, we will... I know where you're going, and we'll go there right after the break.
	We're up against the clock here.
	Stay right there.
	Richard C. Hoagland is my guest.
	This is Coast to Coast AF.
	Art Bell is taking your calls in the Kingdom of Nye from east to the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	West to the Rockies including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado and New Mexico at 1-800-618-8255.
	First-time callers may reach Art at area code 702-727-1222.
	at 1-800-618-8255.
	First-time callers may reach our area code 702-727-1222.
	That's 702-727-1222.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	Now, here again is Art.
	Once again, here I am.
	Richard C. Hoagland is my guest remaining for this final half hour, and we're going to go to the phone shortly.
	Alaska, Hawaii, or Canada, call area code 918-687-0404.
	Well, alright, back now to Richard C. Hoagland, and obviously a series of difficulties and troubles going on, and It sounds as though you could use some help, Richard, and I think that's where you were going.
	Yeah, we could use some help and a little bit of patience and forbearance on the part of an awful lot of good people who have placed their confidence and trust in us to provide them with information that ultimately is very important.
	So what I'd like to ask is if people would like to pre-order.
	These tapes will get produced.
	We do have the Pasadena Conference.
	It has been transferred to Beta SP, which is the Highest standard professional quality that the industry supports.
	Those are under lock and key.
	Our plan was to integrate the Phoenix Conference and the Pasadena Conference together, which is why we call it, the planned program, the Pathfinder Phoenix Connection, because it turns out there are very important linkages between JPL, the JPL process which is going on, the leakage on the websites, the kind of artifacts that Ron And others are now able to look at and actually grasp as artifacts, and the history and the origin of JPL itself.
	It's an extraordinarily interesting story.
	Unfortunately, half the story is now missing because the tapes, the masters, were literally hijacked.
	So if people would like to help us, and we need financial help to actually produce what we intend to produce, what they can do is call our 800 number, which is 1-800 That's 1-800-424-0031.
	That's 1-800-424-0031.
	And simply place an order and send us an advance check, and that will go toward bringing these people together and doing the studio situation that I had envisioned originally, minus the live aspect of the Phoenix Conference, unless, of course, our attorneys have success on the legal front.
	That would require additional monies, and if people would like to donate to the Enterprise Legal Defense Fund.
	I don't know what else to call it.
	I've checked with them.
	It is not tax deductible because this is a political activity and we do not want to put ourselves in the same box that Newt Gingrich inadvertently got into.
	But, you know, $5, $10, $20 would help enormously spread across the millions of people who are interested in what we are finding out.
	That should be sent to the Enterprise Mission.
	PO Box 1130, that's 1-1-3-0, Placitas, P-L-A-C-I-T-A-S, New Mexico, Placitas means Little Plaza, 8-7-0-4-3.
	And believe me, it will be of inestimable help whatever you can do, because the data we have, and we haven't even begun to scratch the surface tonight on the new data, Particularly the political paper trail.
	We are now zeroing in, which of course is why we're having all these problems on who has been obstructing justice and knowledge and disclosure for all these years.
	We have had an archivist in Washington, a researcher, living at the National Archives for the last six months.
	Part of our enterprise expenses literally go to paying for solid research work in the archives in Washington, which of course is why I was so intrigued When I heard Linda's story about the wholesale destruction of vital records.
	He, this individual, has turned up such extraordinarily important data, which now connects the dots as to who has been obstructing within NASA, within the system, the disclosure of this kind of information.
	Unfortunately, that process also cannot continue because all our resources are now tied up in these extraordinary and egregious legal problems That we should not be having, and only are having, because we're getting close.
	All right.
	I hope you get some help, Richard.
	You certainly deserve it.
	First time caller line, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	All right.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	Where are you?
	Where am I?
	Yes.
	Indiana.
	Indiana.
	This is your first call?
	Yes, it is.
	Okay.
	I have a question for Mr. Hoagland.
	I'm going through his webpage and right now I'm glad that my computer saves it all.
	I notice he's drawing comparisons between German war equipment and some of the quote-unquote artifacts on Mars.
	And I was wondering, how do you know the approximate scale and how did you come to these conclusions?
	Well, the scale is a critical question.
	It's not the scale, it's the morphology.
	Scale is almost irrelevant.
	What we're looking at are things that military analysts, people that we've turned to in the defense community, have looked at these pictures, and when you see a tank on Mars, it doesn't matter what size it is, the damn thing looks like a tank.
	Now, we're not claiming it's a tank, we're saying it morphologically is eerily similar to a tank.
	We need more disclosure.
	We need NASA to tell us what, in fact, it finds when it puts the apex, Okay.
	you know, remote sensing gadget on the back of the Sojourner rover
	up against a few of these objects in terms of its chemistry.
	What did they find out?
	We don't know because they are not telling us.
	But those comparisons are not lightly drawn.
	These are the result of a lot of conference-belonged people and experts that we have as part of the Enterprise mission,
	and we're putting them out there so people can draw their own conclusions.
	Okay. You also, along the same lines, You also have something in here about an anti-gravity
	device on the Pathfinder.
	It is an object, and this is a story that we need more time to get into, but the night of the Pathfinder press conference, I'm sorry, the Pathfinder conference, we had a set of remarkable events occurring politically in the audience.
	We had 600 people at the Doubletree.
	We had a bona fide so-called Man in Black show up, which a whole bunch of people saw And listen to an overheard phone call that he made.
	We had some friends of Enterprise who happened to sit next to this individual who divulged to them, because the gentleman in question had a very extensive military background and they apparently struck up a conversation, that he was kind of the stalking horse.
	He was the visible lure, the kind of diversion.
	And there were several other plainclothes people representing intelligence agents in the audience surveying what it was that we were discussing that particular evening.
	What they were surveilling were two individuals, apparently, who had come from the laboratory, the Jet Propulsion Laboratory just up the street.
	One individual who actually handed me a set of 8x10 glossy prints of some of the things you are seeing on the website.
	These glossy prints, which several of our people witnessed, had much better resolution than the images NASA has posted on the web.
	In particular, one of the prints fastened on was a close-up of the object next to the lander itself, the object that you're referring to in terms of this electro-gravitic device, or potential electro-gravitic device.
	And the individual said to me, with an earshot of a number of other people, We wondered when you'd see this.
	There will be a very extensive discussion and background on that and all the other controversial objects posted in the next few days on the web.
	I've been working on it for the last two weeks.
	It's page after page after page of carefully documented, cross-correlated analysis of what those pictures apparently show.
	It's a lot of work.
	The individual who gave me these pictures then noticed that the picture numbers on the back of the hard copy from the lab We're different than the pictures on the web.
	This individual then realized that those numbers could give away who had given me the hard copy.
	So he asked for them back.
	And you know, Art, to my dying day, I will kick myself for being Mr. Nice Guy because I gave them back to him so he could scratch out the numbers.
	And when I turned around, he was gone.
	Apparently, he thought better of it.
	He realized he couldn't eradicate the numbers.
	He was afraid he could be traced, and he disappeared into the night.
	But not before I and several witnesses saw the pictures and what was on them and the transfer.
	So, there are some at the lab, in NASA, who are attempting to leak real information.
	And it is to them that we owe a debt of gratitude for allowing us to see what, in fact, they're really finding.
	And we deserve to, I mean, they deserve for us to fulfill the process And forceful disclosure.
	But they're obviously pretty skittish.
	And with good reason.
	I'm talking lately to a lot of skittish people, Richard.
	And you now, too, fall in that category.
	That's not demeaning in any way.
	It's just the way it is.
	Well, I'm not skittish.
	I am determined.
	I am extremely determined.
	Nothing is going to stop this investigation.
	David Oates, as you know, and the audience doesn't know, has had some recent Threatening troubles.
	Extremely threatening.
	We talked tonight.
	Yeah.
	And he is, his investigation is in a virtual state of paralysis because a lot of his people are terrified of what's been going on.
	I know.
	David Oates has collaborated, has joined our investigation.
	We found that we're able to present that night and it will be on the website.
	If Keith doesn't already have it up, there will be the next day or two.
	A stunning series of reversals of the official NASA press conferences on Pathfinder, which corroborate not only everything I have ever said about the potential hidden agenda, but take it light years beyond and get into areas that we frankly need a whole show in the next week or two with David to go into adequately.
	And Chris Ruddy's throwing some pretty big rocks in the pond himself.
	And one of the critical things is that David told me to tell you and to tell the audience coast to coast tonight That, in fact, he has reversals completely confirming what Chris Reddy has found.
	Oh, my God.
	Well, I'll be in touch with David, and actually, we're going to plan a show with him next week, so that'll be a wild one.
	He needs the air cover.
	Wild card, I know.
	Being public, I know.
	Incredible visibility.
	I have no fear for my personal safety.
	The mode of attack on Enterprise has been legal, financial, It's been double dealing.
	It's been people showing up who claim to be one thing and turn out to be another.
	Well, that's plenty of good reason, Richard, to be wary.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Going once.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	This is Bob at Desert Hot Springs.
	Hi, Bob.
	Good.
	And so glad to get through.
	I have a couple of things to point out here in regards to your previous conversation with Steven.
	Yes.
	Which Richard was a part of.
	Yes.
	Vince Foster and Ron Brown?
	Well, that was with Chris Ruddy.
	And Chris as well?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Lately there's been a lot of talk about Janet Reno's appointing an independent counsel for campaign contributions.
	Yeah, she didn't do it, declined to do it.
	Exactly.
	How about an independent counsel for the investigation of the death of Vince Foster and Ron Brown?
	Well, now that Associated Press has picked that story up, I would say that there is a fair chance that there will be an investigation when you've got Lieutenant Colonels, forensic guys in the military saying, you know, if something looks like murder, everything should come to a screeching halt.
	Well, it damn well should.
	You know, what's interesting, Art, is that earlier tonight, after you'd given me the heads up that Chris was going to be on, I carefully watched all the network evening shows, including McNeil Error.
	And there wasn't obviously a trace of a whisper of this story.
	Of course not.
	The main story was this bureaucrat who got buried by mistake in Arlington and turned out not to have the military service record that everybody thought he was.
	Yes.
	You know, we used to talk about pack journalism.
	It's more like sheep journalism.
	But as soon as someone breaks cover, now that AP has made it official, I would be astonished if there weren't some moves, particularly on the part of Republicans, to get an independent counsel to investigate what is a major, serious set of allegations.
	Um, you know, every bit of evidence, and we've got it up on the website, as you well know, screams for an investigation.
	And if we don't get one, we're just not living in the same old America.
	Well, we're not.
	And that's unfortunately part of the developing database that David and I and several other independent investigators... I was intrigued that Chris says that he himself has been the brunt of vicious character assassination and criminal attacks.
	Absolutely.
	Because we have too, and you've been part of some of that.
	Oh yes, he's on the White House list.
	The fact is that the beat goes on.
	The research is being done, and we've got some extraordinary data, which obviously we're not going to get to tonight, but the trail of who the obstructionists are, and what the agenda is, is now finally becoming clear, and that's why we need a little help, because to bring this out to the American people, frankly, the name of the game they're trying to pull is to stop us from publication, and we need to overcome those small obstacles to get on with the job.
	I hear you.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Where are you, please?
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Yes, my name is Mark Gardner, Kansas.
	Hi, Mark.
	With the KCMO 710 there.
	With Attitude.
	Yeah.
	With Mike Murphy.
	Yeah, right.
	Yeah, I listen to him, too.
	Well, good morning, gentlemen.
	Say, do you know the organization that has stolen the tapes is one thing I want to know.
	We know exactly who that is.
	We know exactly who has them.
	See, I'm not mentioning names tonight because basically I'm playing brinksmanship.
	If these things and these efforts do not cease and desist and we don't get our property back, the next show I do with Art, I will name names.
	Alright?
	Okay.
	I'll be listening then.
	All right, good.
	All right, thanks a lot.
	Thank you very much.
	Yeah, that's brinksmanship, all right.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Hi, Art.
	This is John from Colorado Springs.
	Yes, sir.
	I'd like to ask your guest, Richard, have you ever heard of Alternative 1, 2, and 3?
	I certainly have.
	There's a book called Alternative 3.
	I certainly have.
	I happen to find it interesting, and I have never heard it being discussed on Art's show, and that would be very interesting, the book.
	Well, I know a great deal about the background, the BBC, April Fool's so-called documentary, the various hardcover publications that have been published, and I have, in fact, like Ron, I've changed my opinion about Alternative 3, and in the next show that Art and I do, it turns out that some of what we're finding out feeds into that set of scenarios in an eerie fashion.
	Well, interesting.
	I'll have to record that then.
	Well, thank you, Art, for letting me talk to you again.
	All right, you bet.
	What is Alternative 3, basically, Richard?
	Well, basically, the thesis was, in the 70s, that an in-group of governments decided that the planet Earth was not long for this solar system because of environmental degradation.
	We were basically using everything up, from rainforest to greenhouse effects to To, uh, you know, rampant diseases, to technology gone wild, and that an in-group, an elite group, had planned to escape.
	And there were three modes of escape.
	One was down, in underground cities.
	Another was up.
	And the third one was farther up.
	The up being the moon, and the farthest up being Mars.
	And what's eerie is that the pattern of what we are now finding in terms of the politics of who might be obstructing
	knowledge of ruins elsewhere in the solar system and the pattern of research that our researchers have been
	uncovering in terms of Activities by the US government on the part of the Army
	Corps of Engineers for the last 50 years is eerily supportive of
	some of that scenario and The details you know the devil is always in the details
	sure is part of the archival record trail which is being methodically destroyed.
	That's right.
	All right, my friend.
	We are woefully out of time.
	If you would please give your address one more time.
	These are not tax-deductible contributions.
	Be aware of that.
	But if you want to help out, how do they do it?
	Send us.
	Check whatever amount, please, to the Enterprise Mission P.O.
	Box 1130.
	1130, that's 1130, Placitas, P-L-A-C-I-T-A-S, New Mexico, 87043.
	And our fax number, if you just want to wish us good luck, we certainly appreciate that too.
	Yeah.
	7505-771-0820.
	All right.
	Listen, my friend, that's it for tonight.
	We are, as my Canadian-in-the-West friends would say, out of time.
	So, as always, it's not goodbye, but until next time, when you will, if necessary, name names.
	Yes, sir.
	Night, Richard.
	Say goodnight, America.
	Night, America.
	That's it, folks.
	If you would like a copy of this program, or any program that we have with a guest on Coast, you can obtain it by calling 1-800-917-4278.
	1-800-917-4278 1-800-917-4278
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