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Sept. 8, 1997 - Art Bell
02:48:09
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Richard C. Hoagland, Frances Barwood, Steve Bassett. LM Howe - Roswell
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From the high desert and the great American southwest, I bid you all good evening or good
morning as the case may be, and welcome to another edition of the largest live overnight
talk radio in America.
Actually, and elsewhere, too.
Matter of fact, from the Tahitian and Hawaiian island chains in the west, all the way east, to the Caribbean and the U.S.
Virgin Islands, which just avoided that hurricane.
Congratulations, folks.
South into South America, north to the pole, and worldwide on the Internet, this is Coast to Coast AM.
I'm Mark Bell.
Great to be here.
Another week underway, and what a night.
I'll give you kind of a rundown in a moment.
A few announcements.
Welcome KCNN in Grand Forks, North Dakota.
That's KCNN in Grand Forks, North Dakota.
1590 on the dial.
Glad to have you on board.
WOLF FM in Oswego, New York.
Welcome on board.
As a matter of fact, Wolf AM has been carrying the first four hours of the program.
Now we've got Wolf AM and FM, and they're going to be carrying one to six.
Both stations carrying simulcasting and carrying the entire program.
Hooray!
So welcome.
And now you're not going to miss what is about to happen.
And it is going to be very interesting.
First, a very quick Danyan Brinkley update.
Danyan seems to be doing a bit better.
He's not out of the woods.
He's had an MRI.
They're going to take another in the morning.
They put surgery off.
Temporarily.
He's still facing that possibility.
The bleeding in the third aneurysm has stopped.
That, he attributes to your prayer.
He is still facing kind of a rough road to go here with a number of clots that are in his brain.
Of course, if these clots do not dissolve, but rather let go, he will have a stroke.
And it may stop his heart.
So, it's by the hour, by the day, and I talked to Daniel.
He calls, or I call about twice a day, and I will have another update for you tomorrow.
He's very concerned with the Medical Access Treatment Act.
That would be Senate Bill 578, or H.R.
578 or HR 746 wanted me to pass on to you to contact Senator William Frist of Tennessee,
746.
Senator Jim Jeffords of Vermont, or Senator Ted Kennedy of Massachusetts.
And I'm out.
And, um, please urge them to keep the AMTA, Access to Medical Treatment Bill, attached to the FDA Reform Bill, and support its passing.
That is coming up immediately, and that is something Danion wishes, and he also wishes to thank you for all your prayers.
Now, on the web, I'm going to give you a brief idea.
Guess what, folks?
First of all, it's on the web.
You can go up there and take a look.
My book, The Quickening, is on the New York Times bestseller list.
It's in the bestseller plus non-fiction hardcover books.
And thanks to you all, I guess everybody out there now, The Quickening debuts at number 22 in its first week.
Number 22 on the New York Times.
Best seller list, so I'm a little bit happy about that.
As you might imagine, probably ought to pop a cork on some champagne or something.
There is a picture, actually two photographs, from 1947 that you must see.
And they relate to tonight's program, the one you're about to hear.
They are from July of 1947.
They appeared in the Arizona Republic newspaper.
Supplied by Frances Barwood, who did the research.
She'll be on later.
You've got to see these photographs.
You're going to hear Linda Moulton Howe talking about this craft shortly.
But lo and behold, folks, there was a photograph in the Phoenix newspaper way back in 1947.
And we've got it.
Now, it's not great because, of course, they had to go back and go to the, you know, to the fish.
Fish it out, as it were, from the newspaper files, copy it, and then send it as a computer file.
But you will see a part of the newspaper, and you will see the two photographs up there.
So that's on the web.
There's just all kinds of things.
And oh, don't forget, one more item.
This is the week that my stock is going to go really nuts.
And if you go to the news section, Latest news and web items.
If you go to the very bottom, you'll see Play the Rogue Market.
Buy Art Ball Stock.
Click on that and go buy some stock because this week, it's really going to go nuts.
I guarantee.
So the earlier you get in, the more Rogue Dollars you get, the sooner you get a t-shirt or one of the prizes they offer.
That's all on my website.
Now, if you're not yet on the web, let's talk about how to get you there.
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Don't ask me how they do it, but they'll sell it to you for $579.95.
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That's 1-800-659-2669.
Lewis Brothers and Web TV.
Linda Howe coming up next.
All right, coming up next hour, Frances Barwood, councilwoman from Phoenix, Arizona.
Richard C. Hoagland and Steve Bassett from Washington, D.C.
To set it all up, though, here from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, is Linda Moulton Howe.
Linda, welcome.
Well, thank you, Art.
As you know, I broadcast weekly on Dreamland, reporting on science, medicine, and unusual phenomena, and have reported on Coast to Coast on some of these phenomena in the past, and the story that is unfolding right now is, I think, very important and the connection to the Arizona photograph is the resemblance to what is now being called a delta or wedge-shaped vehicle that is either, some people say it looks like a Greek letter D, has a curved sweeping back to it that other people say sort of resembles a gently curved triangle.
Interestingly, this is also what Kenneth Arnold described over the Cascade Mountains in June of 1947, about a week or so before the alleged crash of one or more vehicles between Corona and Roswell, New Mexico in the early week of July 1947.
And tonight, I want to focus on a new source of information concerning the alleged crashes of extraterrestrial vehicles in New Mexico in 1947.
Sure.
This new source asserts, as retired Army Colonel Philip J. Corso stated in his best-selling new book, The Day After Roswell, that the United States Army transferred extraterrestrial technology to American industries such as Bell Labs, ...to be back-engineered and patented.
It's important to emphasize that this new source claims the back-engineering began in September 1947, only three months after at least two crash vehicles and their very advanced technologies were supposed to have been retrieved.
Colonel Corso said he took orders in the Pentagon between 1961 and 1963, during the Kennedy administration, ...to transfer extraterrestrial technology from Army General Arthur Trudeau's office in the Pentagon to American companies, also including Bell Labs.
The source describes the extraterrestrial computer technology as at least 400 years in advance of human efforts, and supports Colonel Corso's story in saying that trying to back engineer and patent extraterrestrial technology was, quote, In full sway since the early 1960s in a shuttle of technology interchange that has operated between Bell Labs, IBM Research, Unisys, Digital Equipment Corporation, Fairchild, Intel, and others.
Digital Equipment Corporation, for example, and I have learned this back from researcher Jared Anderson, was founded in 1957 with money provided by American Research and Development Corporation that retained 70% ownership.
American Research and Development Corporation was created by Bell Labs.
Digital Equipment's first product was a line of transistorized digital systems, modules, and plug-in circuit boards with a few logic gates per board.
Starting in 1960, DEC began to sell computers of the first PDP-1 type, also a Bell Labs computer design.
The implication from this consultant is that whatever Bell Labs was parceling out in computer designs related back to the extraterrestrial computer technology physically handed over to Bell Labs from the Army.
The emergence of this new information began in mid-August on the website of the American Computer Company in Cranford, New Jersey, whose chairman is Jack Shulman, and this is on your website now that we got on last night.
Yes, the American Computer Company website is available through my website right now, and they, you're about to hear from the CEO ...of that company.
And they've posted the whole thing about July of 47, and is it true that this technology was given to Bell Labs?
They apparently are leaning toward believing that based on the word of one of their consultants.
Correct, Linda?
Well, they're putting that question on their website and following it with information given by the scientist and engineer who is a consultant for the American computer company.
given directly to the chairman, Jack Shulman, specifically to put on the ACC website.
Now, Mr. Shulman told me that he was part of the American Computer Company's founding in 1970 by former Bell Lab executives.
He had interned at Bell in the late 1960s when he first met the source of the current webpage information.
The source is a research scientist and consulting engineer who works on projects at Bell Labs that brought him into the knowledge loop concerning extraterrestrial technology.
Today, the source no longer works at Bell Labs and now consults for both American Computer Company and the military on communication systems.
The consultant asked Shulman this summer to put some of his information on the ACC webpage, partly provoked By Colonel Corso's new book that came out around the 1st of July, and partly, he said, by guilt of knowing that Bell Labs basically lied about discovering the transistor through normal human trial and error, when the truth was the transistor was handed to Bell Labs as an already working component of an extraterrestrial craft found in the New Mexico desert, according to this consultant.
So he feels guilty about it?
He feels guilty because he feels that he and others have felt like there has been a weight on their shoulders that they have known that all of this evolution of a variety of technologies have evolved not from the human side of things but from an extraterrestrial side that our government and other governments still seem to have a policy of silence about and At the end of my report, in fact, I will share a comment that the consultant sent to me this morning.
Alright, this man is corroborating what Colonel Corso said then.
Yes, and the difference in the timeline.
September of 1947, a transistor from an extraterrestrial craft, according to the consultant, being taken by the Department of the Army to Bell Labs.
Alright.
Then, Colonel Corso says he was doing the same kind of operation in 61-63 for General Trudeau, and one of the interesting insights here is that What Bell Labs did with the transistor went on into equipment that Bell Labs developed for commercial distribution.
The Army may have felt that it did not get its application for Army needs and waited a while before they put out any more of the pieces that they had wherever they had them stored.
And that maybe there was an ongoing parceling out of pieces over quite a period of time, and that Colonel Corso came into this story in 61 to 63, and there is a comment by the consultant that actually supports that very well.
Now, the consultant said that other technology that emerged from Bell Labs, such as integrated circuits, The digital signal processor and modems were also directly related to the extraterrestrial technology first transferred by the Department of the Army to Bell Labs in September 1947.
Here are further excerpts from the ACC webpage that are important to keep in mind going into this interview with Jack Schulman.
Quote, nuclear powered engines and advanced communications and computing devices All of which were more than a hundred years beyond post-World War II technology, were taken from the alien wreck and purportedly made their way to the Bell Systems Laboratory, then located in Murray Hill, New Jersey.
Which, and there still are out there.
There they were studied, dissected, micro-analyzed, and pieces tested.
One piece was supposedly found to have unique potential, An alien switching device composed of silicon and arsenic arranged in a microscopic array much more complicated than even now has been assembled by humankind.
It became the priority focus of Bell Labs and the U.S.
Department of Defense's analysis and scientific research.
It was discovered by the researchers that the unusual electronic alien device could act as both a high-speed electronic switch and as an amplifier.
The researchers decided to call it, quote, the transfer resistor, unquote, because it could be made to resist or accept power flow at much higher or lower currents than were applied to it.
According to one account, the alien silicon amplifier switch, evaluated in October and November 1947, was discovered to have enormous implications.
Then President Harry S. Truman ordered the devices cloned, this is a quote from this consultant, and cloned would mean trying to copy and duplicate, and a cover story manufactured.
He was supposedly quoted as saying, meaning Harry S. Truman, quote, we can't keep so earth-shaking a technological advance out of the hands of mankind.
It just isn't right, unquote.
So, according to this consultant, in mid-December of 1947, to effect a plausible cover story, the Department of Defense and Bell Labs purportedly manufactured a series of press releases that said after, quote, a two-year long extensive research effort, discovery of the transistor had at last been accomplished, unquote.
Supposedly, by Bell Lab researchers, Drs.
William Shockley, John Bardeen and Walter Bertain at Bell Labs Electronic Circuits Research Center, under the direction of Bell Labs Vice President John Jack Morton, who was mysteriously murdered in the early 1970s.
Some say, in this day, to keep him from talking about the extraterrestrial technology truth behind the transistor and integrated circuits.
Perhaps ironically, Scientists Shockley, Bardeen, and Bertain were awarded the 1956 Nobel Prize in Physics for their research on semiconductors and the discovery of the transistor.
The consultant says that, quote, the Bell System and Bell Labs in the hands of successor company AT&T and its more recent partly owned subsidiary Lucent Technologies have continued to maintain the transistor story for all of posterity, while quietly covering up the real tracks that led the alien devices to Bell Labs, where they were subsequently back-engineered and eventually became known to the world as transistors and integrated circuits.
The consultant told Shulman that through the late 1950s and into the early 1960s, there were subsequent technology breakthroughs attributed to Bell Labs But we're actually back-engineered extraterrestrial technologies.
Those included the laser, enhanced solid-state circuit components, large-scale switching control systems, and high-definition imaging devices.
Friday, I asked Mr. Shulman why he put the consultant's information about Bell Labs' back-engineering extraterrestrial technology On his American Computer Company website.
Linda, we're not going to have time to get into that report before we're right at the bottom of the hour here.
I have just one question for you and then we'll get to that report after the bottom of the hour.
Linda, how old is this consultant?
He is, let's see, he was a teenager in the mid-1960s and so today he is in his, what, 50, if you want.
Alright, so about 50... 49?
Alright, 49, 50, 51, somewhere in there.
The consultant, I believe, is older.
Well, that's what I'm asking about, the consultant.
Right.
The consultant.
Jack Schulman is... I thought you were asking... No, no, no, I'm asking about the consultant.
Yeah, the consultant is older.
Do you know how old?
No.
He would almost have to be in his early 80s, I would think.
Well, we talked about it today and Shulman is not wanting to specify.
Alright, hold tight.
We'll be right back.
Thanks, Art Bell.
I'm Art Bell.
the kingdom of nigh. Dial area code 702-727-8499. That's area code 702-727-8499. Please limit
faxes to one or two pages. This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
Welcome everybody.
We'll be back in just a moment.
Don't forget the American Computer Company's site, which has this incredible information on it, is available on my site now.
Go up there and you can jump right across to it.
It's www.arkbell.com.
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and Linda Moulton Howe with an incredible story.
Linda?
Just before the break, just to clarify, Mr. Shulman is the one, the chairman at ACC, the American Computer Company, who put together the website information, is the one who knows the consultant.
Mr. Shulman is the one who is about 50.
The consultant is older, but they won't specify the details, apparently trying still to protect the identity of this person.
So now, what I'm going to do is to share with the Coast listeners an interview that I did with Jack Schulman, Chairman of ACC, on Friday about why this material was put on the ACC website.
Alright, I'll go right ahead.
I had a conversation with a consultant about this matter back, in fact, originally about a year ago, but very briefly.
And then sometime in the July time period, we sat down over a cup of coffee and talked about the story that had been waiting on his shoulders for some number of years.
He convinced me, um, to put the information in a, uh, sort of a semi-humorous presentation on the World Wide Web, um, so that, uh, it would receive, what shall we call it, the light of day.
The light of... It's not really to be aired previously, it's just perspective, apparently.
And the idea being to see what kind of comment that you might get from people who would corroborate it.
Well, intent at that point was to see whether or not it was capable of being corroborated,
or if in fact people would step forward to dispute it, or generally to bring the facts
to light and to see what public opinion might result.
Now, a year ago when you had that conversation with him in some specific detail, was he aware
of retired Army Colonel Philip J. Corso?
He may be aware and may have been aware of an individual who did what Colonel Corso claims that Colonel Corso did.
But he did not know an individual by the name of Colonel Corso, nor had he ever read any of Colonel Corso's publications.
Which had not come out at all until July of 97.
So he was provoked by hearing pieces of other information that he knew were true from his experience.
According to him, he in fact felt that there was a lot of misinformation based on speculation and lack of verifiable information in the public sector, and he felt That if he was going to, I think the expression was, if he was going to make any difference at all to the situation, he felt he had to reveal the facts in his possession, and was concerned about the time it would take him to put together any form of publication, such as a book, an article, or a contact, or world press.
Because, in fact, it would probably be ground out by Okay, so this is the consultant's story.
Has he ever indicated to you, if he had any knowledge, of which crash site, because there have been many, and which specific date that the particular technology, extraterrestrial technology, at the base of the semiconductor industry, which craft, at which location it was removed from?
Well, yes, he has.
I do believe he was referring to the, um, what has been called the alleged crash that was memorialized at the 50th anniversary of the, um, Roswell, New Mexico, um, uh, crash site in, uh, I believe it was in mid, uh... Early July.
Um, of 1947.
Um, an outsider within a few miles of an airbase that's adjacent to Roswell, New Mexico.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I believe that exact site, and a site a little distant from it, something like a half a mile distance, Mm-hmm.
represented two locations with the military-found devices at, apparently, and according to the consultant, one of the sites had devices that were hacked.
That site's never really been reported to the public.
The other site had devices which, in fact, were quite badly damaged as a result of some form of a collision or a crash.
Perhaps a geographical crash with the mountainside or something along that line.
Did he have any understanding from anybody in the Defense Department or military or intelligence in retrospect, in history, about what might have occurred to have two extraterrestrial vehicles come down near Corona and Roswell?
Um, you know, in fact, interestingly, um...
I believe from what he tells me, and from what he's told me, that there was a surveillance suspected by the military of the testing site.
The military was testing advanced weapons in the Roswell area, or actually developing advanced weapons, which were tested elsewhere in the military arsenal.
And they found, I think, according to him, surveillance going on.
Surveillance by extraterrestrials?
Yes, apparently.
I think the feeling was that the testing and the explosion of nuclear devices may have attracted attention sufficiently to have caused some form of surveillance in 1947.
1947 Told me that there was a think tank that was put together
under General Eisenhower to analyze very specifically how and why
extraterrestrials might be monitoring human activities and how they could have for instance traveled here so fast
because you know the span of years between the original
Manhattan Project tests and the Bobs that were tested at Bikini Atoll and the bombs that
were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki Were not a whole long span of years, and we really only
started talking in 1947 short time later Yeah, it was only about five years later.
That's correct.
And the interesting thing to the consultants at that particular time was, about that particular time, was the feeling that these beings possessed the ability to travel over great expanses or distances.
Um, and that the size of the vehicle, or vehicles, that landed in the Corona and the Roswell area, um, were relatively small, like they were explorer craft or something along that line, perhaps associated with some kind of a base or larger vehicle capable of very, very, very high-speed interstellar travel.
Right.
Right.
Now, let's go...
Bringing a memory back of something that he told me.
He indicated that the theory put in forth, as a result of that think tank, a long-term project to develop its own surveillance, whether they are satellites or platforms, I don't know which, whose purpose was to extract observed observers that might come to this planet and launch it into space some years ago.
He suggested to me that they did, that they're maintaining such a platform at this time, which has also the secondary purpose of being able to keep track of various terrestrial Earth-to-space activities as well, but that it's fairly secret, this particular platform.
What platform is it in?
I believe it belongs to a special operations group.
Attached to the electronic space.
Electronic communications and command included for military space-specific missions and military space-specific assets.
I for one can tell you that the consultant in this particular situation does not, even though he does have very, very, very high security clearance, does not have any restrictions on his ability to discuss this matter.
Simply because the information did not come into his possession as a direct result of his efforts on behalf of the federal government.
So, in essence, he sort of missed that particular aspect of the so-called Official Secrets Act.
Security Clearance Act. He could receive this information directly from people involved
and participants in those projects, and it has not been as a result of his employment
by the federal government. So he's entitled to discuss this to the extent that he wishes.
He is, I think, however, concerned about causing harm or damage to any individuals involved
in it, because the whole matter is so unusual that it almost needs to be dealt with at this
point in a historical, backward-looking perspective, as if it were a special or unique situation
involving things that our laws and our legislation and our Congress and our people did not have
any real preparation for dealing with.
And then along, of course, came the folks that had dealt with Colonel Corso and brought Colonel Corso's facts to light to us and to me.
And at that particular point, I became flattered because all this stuff, pardon my expression, stuff, all this stuff is new to me.
And you did not... I was floored.
I said, Colonel Corso?
Who was Colonel Corso?
And then I looked at him.
So you did not know about Colonel Corso's book or work at all?
No.
I personally did not.
And let me read a quote from the day after Roswell by retired Colonel Philip J. Corso.
He's referring to General Arthur Trudeau, who was a colleague of Eisenhower's and describes in the book was his boss in the Pentagon.
Uh, in this effort to get extraterrestrial technology into the hands of defense contractors to back engineer.
Quote, General Trudeau also had relationships with the army contractors who were developing new weapon systems for the military within one part of the company, while another part was harvesting some of the same technology for consumer products development.
When he says company, he's referring to a list of companies that General Trudeau had as places they would place extraterrestrial technology.
And then, uh, the Colonel lists these.
These were, Bell Labs is the first mentioned, IBM, Monsanto, Dow, General Electric, and Hughes Aircraft.
And that does appear to be the trail that started in, um, I'd say September-ish of 1947 at the labs.
It appears as if the senior ranking position of Bell Laboratories in the research community at the time served as a kind of a, shall we call it, a cadence for the developments going on at other companies involved in this cycle, in this transfer cycle.
At least it appears that way.
And it would make some sense because what happens at Bell Labs reflects what happens at IBM.
And will reflect what happens at RCA Research and General Electric Research.
And then will perhaps reflect in the developmental companies, companies that work with raw material resources
like DuPont, Dow Chemical, etc.
will have to provide materials to those three principal research domains.
So it does appear to make sense.
In fact, it all very suspiciously points back to an inception point in September of 1947.
And surprisingly the histories that have come...
I think it was a fellow, Jim Easton, who did a very nice job in retrieving factual history from the 80s forward
published in various books and press.
And he isolated the fact, not necessarily advertently, I don't know if you realize he did this,
he isolated the fact that all of the publications that describe the histories refer only very vaguely
to anything that happened prior to September of 1947.
But then speak in very succinct terms about everything that happened after September of 1947.
And frankly, when you have something as earth-shaking as the transistor or all the subsequent semi-conductive devices that have evolved since that time period, There is usually a very long, lengthy, and detailed paper trail that lasts some number of decades showing trial and error.
You don't have this sudden Eureka!
I found it.
Do you have any idea from him where they found the silicon and arsenic switching devices in the craft?
From my understanding, there were some actual devices in the craft that contained them, and actual components built into the craft that contained them.
Did he ever mention anything about finding bismuth and magnesium in very thin micron layers together?
I believe he suggested to me that there is in fact other materials in use within the hull of the device, that's what you're suggesting is in the hull, including some forms of metals that are similar to iridium.
Bismuth, magnesium I think was mentioned.
Something very similar to uranium, but they did not have the weight or the radiant characteristics of uranium.
What the gentleman told me is that the experts who have analyzed the materials have decided that they were decidedly artificial, meaning they were probably constructed from natural matter but they have been in some way formed into not
naturally occurring matter structures.
Not unlike something like a buckyball or, you know, potato tubes that have been speculated
about or the Buckminster Fullerian.
Very unusual, not natural matter but resembling restructured matter that we do find in the
universe someplace like the bucket.
And that relates to the phrase arranged in a microscopic array much more complicated
than even now we humans have ever been able to assemble.
Correct.
And, after that, he also talked to me about a quote from the consultant describing a title or name that was referred to in Bell Labs to these craft.
These two crafts were called Roswell-Exeter-Landers No.
2, also known as RHEL 1 and 2.
Ultimately giving Bell the opportunity to derive a commercial advance or advances from research into the nature of the devices found on RHEL 1 and 2.
I asked Mr. Shulman how the consultant described the shapes of RHEL 1 and 2.
And this is where we get into what looks a little bit like what you've got on the webpage.
All right.
Here it comes.
Listen carefully.
They're shaped pronouncedly triangular, however with a curled delta.
Top to bottom geometry, meaning they have a look from the side very much like a wing, not unlike the flying wing, but from the front they look pronouncedly curled, almost like a boomerang, and from the top, pronouncedly delta-shaped, meaning the outer edges are far rear of the leading edge, and the leading edge emits from the center almost like a triangle.
...is at once both aerodynamic and allows for something of a recessed hollow at the very bottom, which may have something to do with the way the drives of the unit work.
That's the shape as we've described to be by the control.
The consultant also told Shulman that the extraterrestrial craft, referred to as Rail 1, was torn apart and surrounded by debris in New Mexico.
The size estimate of that craft ...was approximately 40 feet.
Rail 2 was allegedly larger, about 76 feet in diameter, and was discovered completely intact about 12 to 15 miles from Rail 1.
That distance was a correction this morning when Shulman earlier had said on the earlier interview, maybe a half a mile away, This morning he talked directly with a consultant and asked him to make drawings of the craft shape and faxed them to me.
One drawing is a left profile that looks like an elongated sort of tapered oval from the left side and the front of the craft is like the wide end perhaps of something in the swoop back What you're going to see on the web page looks a little bit like the heel of a man's shoe.
This might be the wider end, or what some people might say would be the wider end of a triangle, but these are really more delta-shaped crafts.
Now, last night, after my broadcast of this story on Dreamland, I received a fax from a listener with a phone number of an eyewitness who allegedly has seen an extraterrestrial craft.
I called the number and talked with Devin Ryan in California.
Mr. Ryan was six years old in 1961 when his father, a physicist named Willard Phillips Ryan, took Devin on a business trip to Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada.
Ryan told me his father worked at Seabrook, a NASA facility near Galveston, Texas, and had shown his son photographs of extraterrestrial beings and spacecraft.
On the Nellis Air Force Base trip, Devin Ryan said he saw a craft and three bodies that appeared to be dead.
I asked him what the craft's shape was.
A triangular shape.
Okay, so this was a triangular?
With no physical attributes, just like almost smooth.
No seams, no openings.
Can you give me any estimate in feet?
Uh, thirty-five, thirty-eight.
Thirty-five to thirty-eight feet.
Now, are we talking about an equilateral triangle or an isosceles?
Uh, you know, if you took, uh, there's a pastry that has almost the same shape, puffed on both sides, but slight.
What would that pastry be?
I'm trying to think of what they're called.
Popovers?
Yeah, something like a popover, but not quite that thick.
About how thick?
Probably, I'm going to guess, say 12 feet.
Okay, so 12 feet thick and an equilateral triangle 35 to 38 feet on all three sides.
Now, what was the surface color?
The surface color, how would you explain this?
It wasn't silver.
It wasn't gray.
Uh, and it wasn't blue, but it appeared to be all of those.
Silver-gray.
Almost like a pearl.
You know what pearl looks like when they spray it onto a white paint?
It takes whatever reflection it captures.
It can be the sky, it can be anything that passes by it.
Basically, it looked liquid.
What happened to this wedge?
Um, it was covered and put on to a vehicle and moved somewhere else.
Do you know where it went?
No.
Okay, this is 1961.
Where exactly were you geographically?
Um, in a place that they now call Area 51.
Okay, so that's in Nevada, and did, was this something that had landed there, crashed there, been brought there?
What was the situation?
I've been brought there.
We're going to have to hold it right there.
From the high desert, you're listening to Coast to Coast AM.
I'm Art Bell.
If you were...
...
And here I am once again.
From the Kingdom of Nigh, this is Ghost to Ghost AM with Art Bell.
And that's it.
And here I am once again.
Now we're going to go back to Lynn Multhow and we're going to finish the report, the
eyewitness report she had of this wedge-shaped craft seen way back when in 1947.
Linda, you're back on the air once again.
Okay, all right.
This is now a 1961 eyewitness report.
The implication is that this was occurring, meaning that a craft had come down somewhere and had been transported from somewhere to Area 51 at Nellis Air Force Base in 1961.
When this, uh, the man now talking, Devin Ryan, was six years old with his father who is a physicist working for the government and was asked to go and examine this craft and where he left off he was saying this was Area 51 and then he goes on to talk about the beings that he saw there.
All right.
We're at two area 50.
I don't know from where.
I don't know if he even knew.
Did your father have you go with him to Area 51 specifically because he knew that he was going to be seeing this wedge-shaped vehicle and he wanted you to see it?
He took me everywhere.
And nobody, no security, no one minded that you were with him?
No.
There were a few circumstances.
There were a few times when I wasn't allowed.
But generally he came and went.
You know, wherever he wanted to.
He had a very high security clearance.
And when you were at Area 51 and you saw this yourself, did they have a live being there with him?
No.
No.
There were three bags.
One was completely burned down recognition.
You could tell it was a sword, but you couldn't tell what it was.
The other two had, the other one had a very, very large chest cavity,
lacerations of some sort, almost all the way through its body.
And the third one was intact, and I think that they thought that it was still alive
That was the one that they were worried about.
That was the one that I first saw that was transparent looking.
And they put it into some sort of container and put it into a plane and it disappeared.
Can you tell me what you personally saw?
What I saw, they looked transparent.
I mean, I could literally see veins under the surface of the skin, but not much real color.
Not much in the mouth, no noticeable nose and no ears.
And the eyes were closed, so they were just flipped.
You know what?
They looked oriental.
Mm-hmm.
Now that I think about it, their heads were a little bit bigger in the cranial section in the back.
It's not quite like they draw the grays.
I've never seen anything like that.
Very frail, very thin.
I would approximate His height is probably higher than an average Japanese person.
You know, between 4'11 and 5'4 or 5'5.
But very frail.
Very frailly built.
Could you see arms?
Oh yeah.
Okay.
They had the typical thick digits.
They did have thick fingers.
But it was like a foreshortened little finger.
But much bigger than our little finger.
The thumbs were unusually long, though.
Six fingers with unusually long thumbs.
I would say that some of the images were tight.
But definitely six.
I asked Devin how those beings at Area 51 compared to the six-fingered humanoid in the alien autopsy film broadcast on the Fox Network.
He said they were very similar, and that one of the beings at Area 51 in 1961 Had a chest to belly that stuck out, quote, like a pigeon, unquote, similar to the alien autopsy humanoid that had the very extended belly.
He said there was a dark area on the bottom of the wedge-shaped craft at Area 51, and as you know Art, the bismuth magnesium zinc layered material that we received in the spring of 1996, And which remains a mystery as to its construction and function, was alleged to have come from the black underside of a wedge-shaped extraterrestrial craft discovered between White Sands Missile Range and Socorro, New Mexico in 1947.
And in a few minutes, I know you're going to be talking about a photograph in the sky over Arizona, taken July 7th, 1947, that seems to resemble a lot of these patterns of descriptions.
And one of the first military eyewitnesses to claim that the craft he guarded back in 1947 was wedge-shaped was Frank Kauffman, whom I interviewed last year about his testimony to Roswell researchers that the craft reminded him of a piece of pie with a dark cell-like structure on the bottom.
So, there is a great deal more to report on this story.
It is unfolding, it will continue, and if any Coast to Coast listeners Have more information which can help corroborate this former Bell Lab scientist statement and retired Army Colonel Philip J. Corso's testimony.
I would appreciate faxes to me at area code 215-491-9842.
That's 215-491-9842.
215-491-9842. That's 215-491-9842. Or write me at Post Office Box 300, Jamison, Pennsylvania,
zip code 189-419-9482.
nine nine nine nine at the post office box three hundred jameson pennsylvania one eight nine
canine i know that's what long that part i think this is such an
important involving story and there's so many pieces and that you're going to
spend i know the rest of the program discussing yes i have just one question
uh... why is the ceo of american computers in your opinion willing to
stick his neck out for this consultant who is not coming public yet.
Well, the impression I've gotten from talking with the chairman of the American Computer Company over this long period of time is that he himself was so stunned when the consultant this year for the first time in the summer actually went into more fleshed out details and that when the ACC chairman finally got Phil Corso's book Or heard about it.
He hasn't completely gotten the book yet or read it all, but he's seen excerpts and people have given it to him.
He realized that here was a completely independent source, as he said on the interview tape.
He was absolutely flabbergasted.
And suddenly, what this consultant that he's known for a very long period of time, alluding to this story, here it is on the pages of Philip Colonel's It's Colonel Philip J. Corso's book, and at the top of the Colonel's own list of companies that the Army distributed technology to, was Bell Labs.
Of course.
All right, Linda, I really appreciate your report, and it sets up what we're about to do next very well indeed.
Thank you.
Thank you very much, Linda, and take care of that.
So Linda Moulton Howe, our science environmental consultant, and that is quite a remarkable story that a CEO of a major computer company American Computers would come out on his own website with all of this information.
You can reach it, ladies and gentlemen, by going to my website and simply clicking over.
You can also take a look at this photograph that appeared, we are told, July 9th, 1947, in the Arizona newspaper, I presume the Arizona Republic, a picture taken on July 7th, 1947, not of a saucer, But of what we have heard now again and again and again described as a more wedge-shaped type craft.
In a moment, coming up, Francis Barwood, Richard Hoagland, and Steve Bassett.
And we'll put it all together for you in a moment.
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All right, now, Frances Emma Barwood was elected to serve her first term on the Phoenix City
Council in 1992 and was re-elected to a second term in January of 94.
As Councilwoman, she represents District 2, which includes most of Northeast Phoenix, and is the city's largest district, encompassing 120 square miles, more than a quarter the size of Phoenix.
Barwood served as Phoenix's Vice Mayor in 1996.
Currently serves on the Maricopa Association of Government's Air Quality Advisory Committee, as well as the following Phoenix City Council Subcommittees.
Education, Youth and Family Subcommittee Chair.
Housing and Neighborhood Subcommittee Member.
Active in our community, Barwood, 53 now, has served as a member of the Greater Paradise Valley Chamber of Commerce.
And was a precinct and state committee woman, actually committee woman I guess would be, for legislative districts 24 and 28 for several years.
Also served on the Squaw Peak Parkway Extension Advisory Committee, the Transportation Committee, the Community Council, and several other organizations.
Before running for office, she was the Satellite Office Coordinator for the City of Phoenix District 1.
Barwood and her husband, Mike, own and operate the Sunrise Energy Alternatives Company, specializing in clean, renewable energy and fuels.
Born in Ridgewood, Queens, New York, Barwood moved from Williston, Vermont in 1980 to Northeast Phoenix.
She and her husband have three adult children.
Now, what I am going to do is bring Frances Barwood, who now faces a recall election.
As a matter of fact, I believe that recall election, Frances, is going to be tomorrow our time, right?
Right.
Francis, I've got you and I've got Steve Bassett on one line and Richard Hoagland on the other, and if I've done this all correctly, we're going to be able to get you all on the air together.
Steve, are you there?
Sure, Ramar.
Okay, Steve.
I did not get a short bio on you, so perhaps you could tell the audience a little bit about yourself, and then we'll proceed.
Yeah, Arna, about two years ago I brought a background, 15 years of business consulting,
working with companies, organizations, some non-profit in development and financing and
a number of other things, plus a degree in physics and a lifelong interest in what has
been happening in this area in general since I was a kid and decided to get into it on
a professional basis.
So you are a physicist?
No, well I think that is a little strong.
I have a degree in physics but I didn't become a physicist.
But I kept abreast in science.
I read extensively in it.
Well, how does somebody with that background become a Washington lobbyist, and that's where you are in Washington, right?
Exactly.
Well, when I decided to get in this area professionally, I can tell you that, and I'm sure any of the researchers know this, this field is now so vast, so complex, so extensive, that anybody that thinks they can just sort of come in late and become a UFC researcher, you know, bing-bang, is really kind of fooling themselves.
It's just an enormous task.
I tried to find a niche that I thought I could bring most of my skills to bear, and where that was was not being a researcher, but rather consulting to researchers, providing support for them.
As you know, most researchers in the field are self-funded and certainly underfunded.
They don't have a lot of staff.
They're out there on their own, and professional help, whether it's political consulting or lobbying or fundraising, organizational work, I felt that this was something I could provide.
I also had the means to live in Washington very frugally and in the area very well.
So I said, okay, I'll set up here and try to make that the niche.
It's really worked out very, very well.
How did you connect with Councilwoman Barwood?
That's a good question.
I think, you know, I'm on a net all the time.
In fact, I've got a serious addiction problem and I'm probably going to have to seek some help.
But I think I saw some things there and then in discussions with Richard, he had gone into more detail about that.
I also saw an article in the USA Today, a wonderful article in USA Today paper that was written by Richard Price.
And it sort of was coming together.
And Richard really brought it together for me strongly.
And when he told me about her and how wonderful she was, And how extraordinary she was.
I began to realize the significance of what she had done.
And I got in touch with her.
Immediately hit it off with her and we've had a lot of contact.
And so you wanted to help her out.
Richard, is that the way it happened?
That's pretty much the way it happened.
And I certainly second the motion that Frances is wonderful.
And I don't say that because she's a friend.
I say that because she has that rarity in politics art.
It's called integrity.
And she also has another remarkable property, which is why we're having this conversation tonight.
She has curiosity.
And you put those two together in a politician, and if the people of Phoenix lose Frances Barwood, I will never set foot in Phoenix again, because they've demonstrated that they're the dumbest people on the face of the planet.
Alright, well at this point, let's get some background from Frances.
Frances, since you were last on my program, what has happened to you?
Well, first of all, thanks for all the compliments, and my head is getting a little too large right now.
It was real interesting.
You are listened to by Many, many thousands of people.
And after being on your show, I didn't realize how many people tried to get in touch with me immediately through the night, the next day, the day after that.
I apologized to my staff many, many times.
They've been really great.
I am still returning.
I have decided to return all of the letters and the emails and everything myself personally and let my staff work on all the other stuff.
So, I'm still working my way through it, and patience everybody, I'll get to you.
But, I'll tell you, there are so many people out there that are just absolutely great.
And, of course, they're tremendous fans of yours.
Well, thank you.
Alright, you're facing a recall election.
Basically, Frances, because you spoke up.
I guess we ought to give the audience a little bit of history.
Not everybody knows you.
The Phoenix Lights, of course, the strange lights, or whatever it was, appeared March 13th.
A few days, when was it?
How quickly after the lights appeared did you request some sort of investigation?
It was almost two months later.
I hadn't seen the lights and I had thought, I saw them on the news that night on every news station.
And I just assumed that somebody was doing an investigation.
And going to policy session on May 6th, running a little bit late, The extra TV crew was outside of the chambers, and they said, they stopped me and asked if I would talk to them, and told me that nobody would talk to them, and nobody was doing an investigation on these lights.
And I had thought they meant something new, but they said the lights that were over Phoenix on March 13th.
So when I went into chambers, it happens to be our only televised session, and we get to ask, in the beginning, anything we want.
So I did and I asked and I told them that this TV crew was outside and that they had tried to talk to people nobody would talk to them that the people in the upper levels of government told them they were not going to look into it and I asked why not and could we look into it and that was the beginning of it all.
Well, then I guess they said their response was, no, we don't have an Air Force.
We can't investigate such a thing and something like that.
Well, they said that the City of Phoenix does not have an Air Force, which, you know, is kind of a silly response.
And that the police department had less than five phone calls.
But on the news that night, the spokesperson for the Phoenix Police Department was on camera saying that they were overwhelmed with phone calls.
So it, you know, right then and there, I thought, something's not right.
And the day that I asked it, one of the deputy city managers told me, after the meeting, that they didn't want to deal with it, that I had opened Pandora's box.
They wished I didn't ask the question.
And I said, why?
He said, I don't know.
And I said, well, could you find out?
Unfortunately, he died about a week and a half later.
And, um, never got back to me on that.
But, you know, it just, it was, As things went on it was like so incredible because it was almost like they protested too much.
And they put signs on my picture in the lobby and said, you know, from the planet being on.
And the mayor and his press secretary were handing out business cards that they had printed up.
That had my name on it, said, from the planet Xenon.
From the planet Xenon.
Yeah.
And said, uh, speak into the tinfoil and she will hear you.
Speak into the tinfoil and she will hear you.
Yeah.
All of this from the, uh, the mayor?
And his press secretary.
And his press secretary.
And, you know, and it was astounding to me because I didn't say it was a UFO.
I didn't say it was extraterrestrial.
I just said, there were these lights over Phoenix and So many people thought, could you find out what it is?
And I didn't even realize at the time, but after talking with people that were eyewitnesses, how huge this object was.
Oh, it was huge.
All right.
And just for asking that question now, they have started up again the recall to get you out of office, which is ridiculous because you're going to be out in three months anyway.
But later today in some time zones or in your time zone tomorrow, there's going to be an election.
Uh, a recall action to try and get you out of office just because you dared ask a question.
All right, hold on everybody.
We'll be right back.
I have three guests and it's going to be quite a night.
This is Coast to Coast.
.
outside the US.
First, dial your access numbers to the USA.
Then dial 1-800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM from the Kingdom of Nye with Art Bell.
We are the ones.
Let me just, Mark.
You know, if we're beginning to recall city council people just because they ask questions, Then we have deteriorated to a greater degree in this nation than I thought possible.
Francis, what do you consider the odds to be on your recall election tomorrow?
Well, it's kind of a toss of a coin, but that wasn't the original reason that they were recalling me.
I know that, but they dropped that original reason, right?
It was on hold because I was not running for another term.
Yeah, and you were going to be gone in three months anyway.
Right.
Or three months from, is it from now?
It's, uh, my term ends in December.
In December?
Mm-hmm.
So, they brought the recall back after you began asking questions.
Exactly.
One week after.
One week after.
Um, Steve, do you have any reaction to that?
Uh, yeah.
Um, it's, um, it's very clear that The UFO business was the reason that they made this move and they were following in a pretty long tradition.
Let's face it, for the last 50 years, people in the UFO community have been easy targets.
Everybody likes to beat up on them.
They feel it's a real safe play.
If you want to smirk or laugh or pass a joke or make a little fun as somebody that's pursuing this area, you're pretty safe because nobody's going to Gonna come back at you and you've got the whole vast institutions of the country behind you totally agreeing with you.
And we got beat up quite a bit.
But the fact is that those days are over.
I love Stanton Freeman's phrase about no longer being an apologist ufologist.
Those days are here and we're beyond that.
So that now this game gets played.
The surprise is is that they don't get away with it.
Things happen.
There's a reaction.
There's a lot of complex reasons for that.
But the point is, is that we're no longer going to take that kind of nonsense, whether it's a researcher being abused or whether it's, hopefully, politicians coming forward.
Well, Frances was not even a researcher.
I mean, she was just serving her community, and I would say that anybody in that community who wouldn't want to know what was over an area of two million people or so would be out of their minds.
But it's an easy thing to do.
Make fun of that.
Take advantage of that.
So there's really a message being given here.
It's not simply, uh, we don't like Francis Barwood, alright?
It's, uh, look, if you, if you say things like that that bother us, they touch on things that we are really uncomfortable with, we're gonna, we're gonna show you, uh, teach you a lesson.
We're gonna take you out of office for a couple of months just to let you know that that kind of stuff is taboo.
Punishment.
So there's a lot at stake here.
I think there's a lot more at stake than simply whether Francis serves out the last couple of months or not.
I, I hope that the people in Phoenix who Who simply appreciate politicians with some spunk.
And let me tell you, Frances Barwood, in my opinion, has more spunk in her than just about half the House of Representatives.
If they appreciate that, and they also maybe have some interest in these things, and they'd like to see more politicians addressing these issues in an appropriate way, then I think by re-electing her with a substantial majority, the message would be very clear.
And I'll tell you, if she wins tomorrow by a nice majority, I bet you the next council person that comes forward and says, gee, I'd kind of like to have you look at this thing hanging over the city here, just in case it falls down on the Capitol, I think it's a good chance that you won't see a recall election being put together overnight.
I would think not.
As a matter of fact, I would think the smirks might go away quickly.
Yes, we need to get beyond the smirks.
I would like all of you to react to... The reason I put Linda Moulton Howe on first was because of this remarkable news about Bell Labs that winds into the whole Corso story and supports the entire Uh, a Roswell incident.
And all of a sudden, Frances Barwood, bless her heart, Frances, somehow you came up with a photograph.
Um, and I guess you had to go to the archives of the Arizona Republic newspaper.
Was it the Republic back then?
Yes, it was.
It was.
It was real interesting because what we first set out to find was what was told in our paper.
about Roswell and you know shock of shocks and and I have to tell you my assistant is worth her weight in platinum because we you know she went down there and I said I'd like to get all the newspapers around that date and she came back with this and we uh you know kind of looked at it and thought well that's really interesting there was something out here and it was taken by a photographer His picture's in there and his name is William Rose.
And I thought, well when Richard called me and he just kind of went a little ballistic because this matched a sketch that was done by an investigator in Roswell who didn't even see this and didn't know about this and very few people did know about this.
Exactly.
So it's sort of bingo, bingo, bingo.
Richard, Well, the remarkable thing here, and this is why Frances is a threat.
She's a threat to the cover-up.
Because when you put a politician who has a constituency and a legal means to ask questions in a position where she can bring her integrity and her curiosity to bear on a problem, you wind up getting results.
Now, Frances Barwood has done something that no one else has done for 50 years.
She found, through her good staffing and her friend and staff person, Pat, this photograph of a wedge-shaped, delta wing, lifting body type craft, seen over Phoenix, photographed over Phoenix, by a resident of Phoenix, who I think is still alive, he's 81 now, published in the local newspaper, incontrovertibly, Not a flying saucer, as the folk wisdom would have it.
Not at all.
But something remarkably different, something that we didn't invent for another 20 years, alright, in terms of NASA programs.
And there's a demonstrable record, and Frances Barwood found it.
This is why they want her out.
It's a lifting body type craft, and this photograph was taken July 7th, 1947, published in the Arizona Republic, July 9th.
1947.
Very, very interesting dates in view of what occurred in Roswell.
If it weren't for my friend Paul Davids, who is of course the producer of the Showtime film Roswell, I wouldn't have understood the significance.
Because remember guys, I don't follow UFOs, okay?
I'm looking at extraterrestrial archaeology.
But Paul Davids introduced me to a private eye named Bill McDonald, who also is a very good artist, whose father is a physicist, Who works in black projects.
And McDonald basically wanted to turn his talents more in the artistic direction.
And he went to Davids and he said, look, let me interview some of the witnesses.
I will craft for you a model of the saucer that fell in Roswell for your movie.
So Paul said, OK, go ahead.
What McDonald discovered through his own research and the research of Kevin Randall and some of the others, Was that it wasn't a saucer at all.
In fact, it was a lifting body.
And I first heard it through him.
A few weeks ago, he sent you, I believe, a model from a tester toy company.
That's right.
Of the actual reconstruction that he had done for the film.
Looks just like this picture.
And he sent one to me.
And about the same time, Francis sent me, or Pat sent me, I guess, at Francis' behest, a fax copy of the front page of the Arizona Republic for July 47 and I'm looking at the box and I'm looking at the picture and yes Francis I went ballistic because I realized that Francis Emma Barwood had done something that nobody else had done in 50 years that is find new data that not only confirms that Roswell probably happened but also fits the pieces together in a whole larger set of puzzles
And as I said again, this is why they want you out.
You are a major threat because you can think.
And once again involves the city of Phoenix on top of everything else.
Can I add to that, Art?
You may.
There's another reason that she's a threat.
Or anyone in that position is a threat.
A lot of people criticize the media in this country.
They think they're not on our side.
They ignore this issue and so forth.
I'm kind of an admirer of the media.
I think they're pretty interesting and pretty powerful and do a lot of stuff.
The thing about what Francis did is a threat because of this.
A UFO person or a person that's in the field can say, oh, I found a photograph in a paper, or what's his business about the sighting?
And they do it all the time.
And the press basically does nothing.
Because it's just not appropriate for them to get into that.
But the moment something happens, but they are interested.
Believe me, the press in this country is very interested in this issue.
The moment something happens, like a council person bringing up an issue about, gee, why don't we investigate these lights, That is a safe and legitimate reason for them to go and look at something.
And so guess what happened?
They descended on her.
And so the threat that a person who is in the mainstream just doing their job represents to, I think, this worldview, is that it gives the media reasons to actually get into this game and look very hard at things.
and if enough people come forward in the mainstream in an official capacity,
you can be sure the press will follow it more intensely, ask more questions, and get more involved.
And that was a very significant thing.
Then there was of course, Steve, Stephen Schiff's problems.
Congressman Schiff in New Mexico.
Exactly.
And would you care to give the audience a brief rundown on what he found?
Well, you know, the interesting thing is we're a very political country.
We are swarming with politicians.
Tens of thousands of them.
And if you were to make up a list out of all those tens of thousands of politicians of the politicians in this country who have in their official sitting capacity done something specific, you know, functionary, with
respect to a UFO matter.
You'd have Stephen Schiff, and you'd have Francis Barwood, and I don't know of anybody else.
It is a very short list.
This is an interesting dichotomy. He is on the other end of the political spectrum.
He's at the House, the center of government.
And Stephen Schiff, let me tell you, is a man I admire tremendously.
He simply did a constituent service for the people in his state,
who were very interested in Roswell and what happened there.
And they said, look, you have the capacity to inquire.
Would you please look into getting access to information about Roswell?
This is submitting it to us.
And he did.
In a very responsible and level-headed way, without putting his opinions about a particular issue into play.
He simply did his job.
And then when he wasn't dealt with properly, when he was given a runaround, and I'm sure that would shock a lot of researchers out there.
A brick wall, actually, he said he ran into.
A brick wall.
He did something else.
He went public.
He went on a number of shows.
Television.
Radio.
And he simply stated, again, in his very... This is not a super charismatic guy, okay?
He's a very basic, forward fellow.
Straightforward guy.
Just saying, here is what happened.
And he created a lot of trouble for our government.
It's extremely tough when they have to deal with that.
What do you do?
Well, the results of his investigations through the GAO were that most of the records of that period of time were, surprise, surprise, missing.
The phone records, particularly, yeah.
The phone records are gone.
He actually uncovered something important.
All of the records, yeah.
I guess all the work records.
All the telecommunications traffic in and out of Roswell for this critical period literally has disappeared.
And we would not know that if it weren't for Stephen Schiff.
Now, sometimes the phrase, you know, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, or vice versa.
In other words, by this vacuum, it reinforces the idea that something happened, and somebody doesn't want us to know about it, because there are a lot of other incidents where we do have luminous records, and they're equally hot politically, but they're not extraterrestrial.
Yes, of course he did.
Once you have run into a brick wall and you push hard like Francis has done or like Stephen Schiff did, you pay a price.
There's absolutely no question about it.
If you have the guts to plow ahead, And you don't just take go away as an answer, you're going to pay a price.
And in Frances' case, here she is facing a recall election hours from now.
What I think is pretty interesting is that her opposition, and I guess what, there are two or three candidates running against you?
Two.
Two.
Are going door to door in her district.
And they're not talking about the issues that normally you'd think this election would be about, which I guess was the zoning business, right?
They're literally talking to constituents about UFOs and how wacky Francis is for being interested in UFOs.
So this is, unequivocally, the first UFO referendum.
Yes, indeed.
Now the reason that I wanted to do a program on this is not only because I think Francis is someone too valuable to lose, But I want to see if the people of Phoenix are bright enough to figure out that if she wins tomorrow, we all win.
The idea of asking questions wins.
The idea of defending your constituent curiosity and basically well-being, because whatever you might think of what happened in Phoenix in March, the fact is that from uncounted witnesses, something a mile wide, hanging 1,000 feet, 1,500 feet above the city, Richard, what is the current status of the investigation of what occurred on March 13th?
Has there been any follow-up?
Somebody's not taking care of the citizens of Phoenix, Arizona, except Frances, who's
trying to and is being castigated for simply doing her job.
Richard, what is the current status of the investigation of what occurred on March 13th?
Has there been any follow-up?
Do we know anything new at all?
The only thing we know is that it weren't flares.
There have been comparative videos showing flares being dropped.
Jim Delitosa has been involved in some of that work.
The people who claim that it was flares are sadly mistaken, need lenses, or maybe are being paid off.
But the fact is that it was something, it probably was more than one thing.
There now appears to be a developing perception that there were numerous sightings of numerous unusual objects that night.
I am obviously most intrigued with the timing over Phoenix when Mars was at 19.5 which to me was the reason for going to Phoenix among others and having a seminar and doing the simulcast in your program and all that.
The very fact that Francis is in trouble politically for trying to get to the bottom of a mystery that even if you discount the extraterrestrial implications totally the fact that no civil authorities seem to be at all concerned that something that big was that low over a city of two million people when we've had countless examples now of major air crashes where people died
Well, it's been a puzzle to me.
lack of FAA oversight or you know bureaucratic you know follow-up just
seems to be another reason why Frances should should prevail tomorrow because
she's doing her job. Well Frances you want to comment? Well it's been a
puzzle to me this whole thing has been just incredible and you know if we could
I'd like to talk about the photographer and what he told me.
All right. Are you Sure.
Okay, well we found him and he still lives in that same neighborhood about one house away from where he did back then.
He still looks the same except he has gray hair and little wrinkles.
Really, really neat guy.
What his job was at the time was he was an aircraft identifier for the British at Southern Field.
Oh.
So he knows aircraft.
And he said it was a cloudy day and he was outside and he saw this thing come through the cloud cover.
It had rained earlier and the clouds were low and he said it came through and when he saw it he couldn't believe what he saw because it was nothing that he had ever seen before and he went he ran in and got his mother's uh brownie camera because it was the only one that had film in it and ran outside and took those two pictures and uh He said it came down, it made a huge circle, came from the west going towards the east.
He was upset with the article because it said saucer, and he said this was not a saucer.
Obviously.
And he said that the pointy end was the front end, the two pointy edges.
Sure.
And he said it was traveling between 400 and 600 miles an hour, and he would know that.
He said it made a huge circle and continued to the east, not the west.
So it came from the west and went to the east after making this huge circle under the cloud cover and went back up into the clouds.
And two days after the article appeared in the paper, the FBI came to, first of all went to his neighborhood, went all to his neighbors, got to him, asked him for the negatives and the photos.
Oh really?
That they would get them right back to him.
He gave them to him, they went to the paper, took theirs, and that was the end of that.
So you mean they even took the photographs or the negatives that the newspaper had?
Yes.
And then he went down to the FBI office after a couple of weeks because they didn't give it to him back, and the men that took it said they never even saw him before.
Frances, hold tight.
We'll finish this story after the top of the hour.
Uh, that would be, I guess... I wonder if they wore black back then, what do you think?
Sounds like men in black to me.
The FBI came in and actually took the pictures away, huh?
So we're fortunate to have a scan of what was on the front page of the, uh, Republic newspaper way back when.
then go take a look on my website.
She makes us wait.
I keep the vibes.
Can't take the lies.
Without your love.
Hi, I'm Frank Barclay.
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you To talk with Art Bell, from east of the Rockies, dial 1-800-825-5033.
That's 1-800-825-5033.
Now, here again is Art Bell.
Good morning, everybody.
All right, in hour one, plus a little, we had Linda Moulton Howe here, who very carefully detailed a remarkable, remarkable story regarding the American Computer Company and a consultant to it.
Which seems to be verifying, underlining, underscoring everything that Philip Corso said about how we got the transistors, how we got night vision, how we got so much of our technology.
A remarkable story.
And also referring to what appeared to be a lifting body, the crash of a lifting body in Roswell.
Now, strangely enough, The description of this lifting body just happens to exactly fit a photograph that we just, thanks to Frances Barwood, who is a Phoenix City Councilwoman, now and hopefully for the next three months because she's facing an outrageous recall election today, now today in this time zone.
She came up with a photograph that was in the Arizona Republic, guess when, July 9th, 1947, taken July 7th, 1947, of a wedge-shaped lifting body-type craft that was last observed going east, or toward Roswell, if you will.
It all begins to sort of fall in place, doesn't it?
And by the way, I just got this fax.
It says, Art, look more carefully at the alleged six-fingered alien image control panel on your website.
You will see there are only four recessed areas for the normal number of digits, with an obvious space for one thumb, which equals a total of five fingers.
With a good monitor, there is no doubt.
And I certainly will take a look.
And then this.
Art.
This is from Tamara in L.A.
What scares me about this situation is, I don't believe that they would have called for a vote, unless they, I don't know about that.
But I understand, certainly, the suspicion.
could get her out of office, referring to Francis.
I am implying a scam in the ballot as examined by Mr.
Collier and his vote scam presentation.
Well, I don't know about that.
Uh, but I understand certainly the suspicion presently we have with us and
they will be back in a moment, Francis Barwood, Richard C.
Hoagland, and from Washington, DC, Steve Bassett.
They'll all be back presently.
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Alright, now, the election, the recall election that will occur today in Phoenix
of Francis Barwood has literally turned from what it originally was
into a referendum on ufology.
And I think that really is a fair comment because the candidates running against her have been speaking of nearly nothing else but Frances' interest in ufology.
She was telling us how this photograph, and you can see it on my website, Um, that appeared so long ago in the Arizona Republic, how it was obtained, uh, by a gentleman now graying, uh, getting older, uh, who actually took the photograph with a brownie camera, the one that appeared in the newspaper that you can see on my website now.
It is degraded because we had to go back and we had to go to the, uh, Francis, I guess your assistant, went to the fish, uh, fished it out and then somehow got it copied and got us a
copy so we could get it up on the website.
Is that how that occurred?
That's about it and we're going to send you the best one that we have so that you can
see it actually.
But you know it's really fascinating because of everything that this man went through,
you know the FBI questioned his neighbors and everything and it went through his things
and he mentioned I think he said a commander or a Captain Bane that had something to do
with his pictures.
Well, they flat out denied everything because of everything that this man went through.
Um, you know, the FBI questioned his neighbors and everything, and it was, it went through his things, and, uh, he mentioned, I think he said a commander or a Captain Baines that had, uh, something to do with his, um, his pictures.
Well, they flat out denied everything.
Well, what he did was, several years later, Through the, um, Freedom of Information Act.
He went with a friend of his and got all the documents from that time.
And mostly everything had his name, you know, blackened out.
But he knew that it was about him and on, and in one place they didn't do, they forgot to get his name out of there.
In the very, I sent you the packet, the very last page, it talks about his negatives and a photograph.
And it says that it was, they had gotten it for disposition, and they were sending it on to them, and they were talking to the Department of Defense to dispose of.
Well, I'm surprised, Frances, almost, that you took this on.
Of course, it's riveting, very extremely important information, but here you are, already in trouble just for asking for an investigation at Slides, and now you have come up with a relevant photograph that, as Richard will appreciate, connects a lot of dots.
Well, you know, it's kind of interesting.
I guess that's what gets me in trouble all the time.
My dad used to say, you can't get in trouble if you ask questions.
And I have gotten in nothing but trouble by asking questions.
And I guess, you know, what it is is, I mean, I've asked worse questions.
This is not, this was not a bad one.
And it got me an awful lot.
But, you know, it's interesting as to who it gets you in trouble with.
It doesn't get you in trouble with the people who have seen this thing or who are curious, who feel, you know, this is a public safety issue.
And, but it does get you in trouble with the people that just wish you would shut up and go away.
Well, there we have the politics of ufology.
And that's where I think Steve is a real expert.
Even though things have changed, Steve, and, you know, ufology is being taken more seriously, if we go by Francis' experience and that of Congressman Schiff, have they really changed that much?
Oh, yes.
Oh, yes.
The general public is probably almost completely unaware of the political developments that have been transpiring the last few years, and I think the UFO community, whether it's just the intrigues or the researchers, would also be surprised at how much is happening.
But let me quickly close out what you were discussing with her there.
There is a Her situation there is really a metaphor for some much, much larger and very powerful and significant issues.
And there was a poll recently done, which regrettably I do not have handy.
I know I read it in the Post and probably Richard recalled it.
But it was a very striking poll, this was very recently, a few weeks, in which people
were polled about their general satisfaction with their relationship to their government,
to their politicians.
Is this?
And what was so shocking about it was in spite of the fact that our economy is really exceptionally
good, stock market unbelievably high, and generally unemployment low, all these positive
things, that indicator was low.
It had dropped off.
And it was very shocking.
And what it reflected was a very powerful tension is developing, sort of a surface tension,
between people and their government.
And that's really, that relationship is what is called a social contract.
And that tension centers around a couple of things.
One, it centers around this increasing awareness of just how much secrecy and covert activity has built up during the Cold War, during those 50 years of this little soiree we had with the Soviet Union.
How many things were hidden?
It's the apologies for these past acts, which we're hearing one apology after the other.
And it's also this sense that there just aren't any politicians that can walk A straight line.
And that doesn't mean there aren't some that can, but again, there's this fundamental sense that something is not right.
And in Frances' case, there's this wonderful irony, because after she spoke out and the mayor did his little thing, the governor then turned on her.
Essentially, he had said something perfunctory, and then suddenly just turned on her, essentially, and in various ways made it clear that she was going to twist in the wind.
And so here you have a gentleman Who was making fun of and turning on a local official, small official.
I do believe that is now the ex-Governor.
Exactly.
He turned on her because she was being forthright.
And then just a few weeks later, the same person is indicted or actually convicted on, what, 14 counts of not being forthright in his personal financial affairs.
This kind of irony, I think, cannot possibly escape the Phoenix citizens.
This is also part of another uneasiness, and that is we're emerging out of what I call the patriarchal society.
It's a patriarchal government relationship where the government really treats the citizens as children.
Another way of saying it is we're in that don't ask, don't tell phase that's been going on for some time.
Don't ask us and we won't tell you.
Better to be sane and not hurt or go away kid, don't bother me.
And people are pretty much fed up with it.
I mean, they gave the government a huge license during the Cold War.
Build the bombs, build the carriers, build the nuclear triggers.
Don't tell me how you're going to do it.
Just keep the Russians out of my backyard.
And I think perhaps that was understandable.
But it developed to the point where now we're thinking, can we stop this process?
And people don't know.
And it just so happens that the UFO situation has ripened after 50 years of sitting on a windowsill.
To the point where it is going to play a major role in this changing dynamic tension, and Francis Barlow, which it happens to be, right at the cusp.
Well, one of the bellwethers, I think, Stephen, for this idea of a changing atmosphere, a changing climate, is how you have been received on Capitol Hill.
The idea that you can put on a three-piece suit and go from door to door, congressmen, senators, you know, and other people, you know, movers and shakers in Washington, And be written up as favorably as you were in a couple of those Capitol Hill pieces.
True.
I find rather remarkable.
And plus the Washington Post is doing a piece this week, which I haven't read, but I have preliminary reviews that it's actually relatively favorable.
Now, having said that, I'm about to get sliced and diced.
It is clearly not the same.
Well, first of all, I may be, I'm told by some of the press that I'm the only UFO lobbyist in the country and perhaps the only one in the Haiti Republic.
That's not something that's easy to determine, and if there's anybody out there that ever registered as a lobbyist on a UFO issue, I would love to hear from them, because I'd like to chat with them.
Who is getting ready to slice and dice you?
Well, I was just saying that having said that, I think the Post is going to do a favorable piece.
Sure enough, when I read it, they'll slice and dice me, but I don't think they will.
Well, it can't be any worse than they sliced and diced me after a trip to Concord last spring.
You got sliced and diced?
Yeah, right under Clinton.
I felt very honored.
It was like that old Mark Twain quote about being ridden out of town on a rail after being tarred and feathered.
He said, if it weren't for the honor of the thing, I'd just as soon pass it up.
Maybe we should start a place in bicycles.
See, there's an interesting dichotomy here, because at the same time that Frances is in a race for her political life, at least at the city council level, I understand that regardless of what happens tomorrow, you're intending to aim higher, which I think the citizens of Arizona should be very grateful for.
uh... if if steven is being treated you know diplomatically and with courtesy and seriousness in washington in the uh... in the various levels of press it implies strongly which i'm getting from our own investigation that we're no longer looking at a monolithic opposition bt issue that there is an intense fractionation there is a war going on beneath the surface within the power groups Depending upon where you are, and depending upon which side or which toes you step on, you either will be treated favorably or unfavorably, depending upon which faction happens to be in control of the media at the moment.
This is absolutely the case.
Certainly the UFO community as a whole, if you take it as a total set, It's probably an adversarial position with the government.
And there are people in the community that can really work up a head of steam when they start talking about government this and government that.
But the fact of the matter is the government is not a monolith.
It is extremely huge.
It has hundreds of thousands of people and hundreds of departments.
And the vast majority of those people, believe it or not, are just like us and very curious.
And if they had more time to look at some of these things, they might.
They've got a wife, they've got a kid, or they have a spouse, they have kids, and they have a job.
And the government is, in fact, in a very tumultuous position now.
There's a lot going on.
And one of the things that's happening, one of the things that I'm trying very hard to do, kind of my mantra, is what I call normalization.
The UFO thing is wonderfully exciting, and I can sit down with Richard and we can cook up some theories in a couple of hours that even Richard probably would think was a little out there.
But the fact is that increasingly it is being normalized and that's where I think it must go.
Normalized in the sense that it's an issue, it's a fact, it's real.
You go and talk to people about it.
You don't get overly worked up.
You try to use the standard channels.
You try to approach people in a way that they're comfortable.
You give them the opportunity to kind of be in their own space.
And treat the darn thing like any other important issue in our country.
And there are a lot of other issues.
These politicians down there, they have a lot of things on their plate.
That does help.
It works.
And that is where it's heading.
Inevitably, someday this whole business will in fact be boring.
Believe it or not.
I don't know how many years that will be.
It will be.
It's just one of a lot of things a human race has to deal with.
And that process is slowly taking place.
I don't think I agree with you, Stephen.
This is not going to be boring because it concerns who we are.
I was being hyperbolic there, but I was trying to say that it's not going to always be extraordinary, but rather we will inculcate it like we have inculcated paradigms.
Well, let's look again at the case of the Phoenix Lights and what Francis did.
Here we had lights over Phoenix, or a craft, depending on who you listen to, for 106 minutes.
Now, we know they weren't flares.
That leaves two realistic possibilities.
One is that the government has some sort of craft that is monstrous and that we have no explanation for, that would be generations ahead of
anything that we've got, or it's an extraterrestrial craft.
One of those two things, either one of them would be critically important when it appears
over a city.
I mean, this is a matter of not... Well, it ought to be a matter of national security, frankly, but certainly it's a matter for the security of the people of Phoenix.
So, whether it's military or whether it's something from way out there, what's the difference?
It's reasonable to ask a question, it's responsible to ask for an investigation, and to be destroyed politically because you do ask a question, I don't know.
That's, uh... If she's destroyed, because she hadn't lost yet.
No, but they're trying.
I'm not dead yet.
But you know what's interesting is, if something curious happens and nobody wants to check it out, it kind of seems either one, they're afraid, or two, they already know what it is.
That's a good point.
Yeah, I've got to absolutely agree with that.
It's one or the other.
All right, you three, hang tight.
We'll be back after the bottom of the hour.
Francis Barwood, Richard Hoagland, Steve Bassett are my guests.
I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast.
Her hair is hollow gold.
For Harry Potter all goes, the lips are sweet and dry. For Hansel and Gretel are cold, she's got Betty Davis eyes. She'll
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We won't have to think twice.
She's pure as New York snow.
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Now again, here's Art.
Once again, here I am, and in a moment, we'll get back to our guests.
Back.
Indeed.
618-8255. Now again, here's Art. Once again, here I am and in a moment we'll get back to our guests.
Indeed, and back now to my guests and we've got quite an array of guests here.
I think that we want to let Richard get a word or two in quickly about what's coming up Thursday, Richard?
Thursday this week, the 11th.
On the 11th.
Tell us what it's going to be, where it's going to be, you know, what, where, when, and so forth.
Well, as you know, we are, coincident with the Mars Surveyor going into orbit, we are holding a major event in Pasadena, about half a mile away from JPL, at the Double Tree Hotel.
And we have an information line.
If you want to get tickets, there are still some available.
So call 818-952-4195.
That's 818-952-4195.
Now, having shamelessly plugged the event, let me tell you why it's relevant to what we're discussing this evening.
Sure.
We've sent invitations to a number of senators from California, Nevada, New Mexico, and Congressmen.
I do not hold out much hope that any of them will attend or send their staffs.
And the reason is because we've done this before.
When we held our Cody Conference in Cody, Wyoming, several years ago, we had affirmations that a number of very prominent political figures, people who are household names on McNeil-Lehrer, when it was McNeil-Lehrer and likewise, would be showing up.
And none of them, when Pushkov and the conference actually went on, showed their face.
We discovered later that one of the leading senators, whose name I will not mention because I don't want to embarrass him, sent his mother in.
He claimed he was out of town.
He was in town during the entire weekend of the conference.
He sent his mother in to find out what we were talking about.
But he didn't have the simple guts to show up himself.
Well, Richard, look, if Frances Barwood loses her recall election later today, and the medieval times prevail, then we can begin calling this the Barwood Syndrome.
See, this is why I'm really extolling her virtues and embarrassing the hell out of her tonight, because I want the people of Phoenix to realize what a precious commodity they have.
They have someone who is bright, who has represented them well, and who has courage.
And the key thing that's lacking in this democracy in the latter part of the 20th century is simple courage on the part of elected officials.
And if they let her get away, then I will think a lot less of them, because people of France's courage and integrity are extraordinarily rare.
Now, the event we're doing Thursday night, is a major political event we're going to lay out with stunning images some of which have been leaked from inside NASA by other people who have no courage because instead of standing up and holding a press conference and saying to the American people this is what we found and this is what we've been hiding from you and this is why we've decided to turn state's evidence they're slipping it out between the cracks and one of the things that we have literally
found tonight on NASA's website, hidden in an arcane file, is a photograph, a stunning photograph,
I'm looking at it right here on the monitor as I'm speaking coast to coast,
of what looks for all the world art like a lifting body, very similar to what we've been discussing for the last two
hours, only this one is lying, canted, at an angle, beside the
lander, on the planet Mars.
Wow.
And if you want to see all this data, and if you want to see the absence of political people of courage, and the reason why people like Francis should be held in high esteem and kept in office to do their job, then come with us on Thursday night at the Doubletree, and you can get tickets by calling 818-952-4195.
You know what you do, Richard?
You get a bunch of chairs, and you put them up on stage, and you put Senator so-and-so Congressman so-and-so.
That's an interesting idea.
And you label the chairs, and they'll all be sitting up there, either filled or embarrassingly empty.
Now, you know, of course, we have geologists.
We have Ron Nix, who's going to participate in our effort, and David John Oates.
Now, David called me, was it this morning or yesterday?
No, it was this morning.
It was this morning.
He's got some additional confirmatory evidence.
That the most interesting things we have suspected, in fact, out of their own mouths, these NASA personnel that we've been watching on television, out of their own mouths, we will find out the truth.
And we will lay that out on Thursday night.
Again, when we held our event in Phoenix, you know, we invited Frances, and she came.
That's the neat thing about a politician who is a representative of the people.
When the people ask, they respond.
That's why the city should not turn her out tomorrow.
Well, actually today in the time zone here.
When, Frances, will we begin to get news of the results of this recall election?
It will be tomorrow night about 7 o'clock.
The polls will be closed.
They start the counting.
Um, because we have what's called early voting here.
Mm-hmm.
And people don't need to have any excuse to vote early.
There's been quite a bunch that have voted.
And, uh, they started checking those ballots last Friday, which is kind of interesting since today is Election Day.
Yes.
But, uh, they're not tallying them until today, so we'll see exactly what happens.
All right.
Steve, do you have any more comments with respect to the election?
Only just sort of.
I think I'll make you a wager that it won't be very long.
Very soon.
And it's probably the state level.
A politician is going to run a competitive race in which this UFO issue, and not some particular aspect of it, but the UFO issue, dealing with it, addressing with it in an appropriate way is going to be a centerpiece of their campaign.
It's only a matter of time, and that person may win or they may lose, but they will leave a significant mark.
Well, what happens to Frances Barwood today probably dictates how soon that may happen or not.
Yes, except that Frances could turn right around and run for another office and keep this thing going.
I'm glad it's a decision she'd have to make.
It's not going to go away.
This business is evolving forward.
It's not going to go away.
I'm really very optimistic.
Whatever happens, I think the way the people have responded to her, the publicity she's gotten, the press, the internet, she's been discussed there.
Really what you're seeing is that the probability of this kind of thing really going the wrong direction is diminishing.
And I think she will win, and I think the message will go out.
And if she doesn't win, it's still not necessarily a loss, because it did get the national attention, and it got the exposure that makes it clear what happened, so that we can deal with it and move on.
One of the things to remember is that in these off-year elections, and the recall election is kind of the off of the off elections, it's voter turnout that basically makes the difference.
If the people who support Frances, who support the idea of Asking questions so you get answers that are meaningful.
Turn out in support of her, she will win.
If they stay home, if the opposition, with money and press spin and all that, is allowed free reign, then she won't win.
so it's really up to the people tonight who are listening to this program in
phoenix if they care about this larger
and the local issues they care about an individual who has served them well
and symbolically can serve them so much better in whatever capacity she chooses to to fulfill in the uh...
years to come then she really needs that support
and now is the time to demonstrate it that's right and i i think that even if
you eliminate the whole you as all angle
and all you look at is what occurred over the skies of phoenix and the people of phoenix
and decide for themselves whether it is reasonable that she would have passed
the question she did or not they can decide on that basis
uh... whether she should uh... remain in office or not And to me, it is eminently reasonable and irresponsible not, I mean, to turn away from something like this, as she said, maybe they know what it is.
I was just going to say, unless they know the answer and the answer is that which we, the great unmany, should not know.
Which, in which case we're being treated as children.
And I'll go one step further.
Uh, Francis is a conservative Republican.
And, uh, There's probably a range of issues that she, particularly on a national level, would like back that I would not support.
I am a liberal Democrat.
There are probably people out there that disagree with some of her positions.
They could vote against her on that point.
I would say, wait a minute.
Step back, folks.
This woman has only a couple of months left on her term.
Disagreements over other positions she may have are really irrelevant here.
Even if you don't agree with her fundamental politics, You have an opportunity to vote against this idea of running somebody out of office for a couple of months just to slap them down for being forthright.
This goes beyond Democrat or Republican.
This goes to whether or not we're going to support politicians who are forthright and honest and curious and open or whether we're going to allow the back room, behind the scenes, covert, deal, Uh, semi-scandal kind of politics, still, still whole sway.
So there's, there's a, there's an opportunity to send a wonderful message, particularly at the local level, to, uh, to communities throughout the country.
Francis, uh, have you got any idea, now that we're down the line, I mean, the governor did such a strange thing before he left office, uh, the day that he came out and suggested, with a very straight face, that there was going to be an investigation, as you had requested.
Uh, went into a courthouse, Where he was facing some sort of legal procedure with regard to what finally got him and came back out of the courthouse and made a joke out of the whole thing.
Is there any follow-up on that?
Do we have any idea why such a weird thing was done?
No, I think it was probably somebody's really bad advice to him, but what was, you know, the interesting thing is You know, he is not that type of a person, and for him to do this, everybody said it was so out of character for him.
And what's interesting, too, with the verdict that came down, it was half of the items were hung jewelry, and some of the others were guilty, and then some were dismissed.
And the interesting thing is the combinations contradict each other.
So, you know, left it very wide open for an appeal.
Not only on that, but they had a little problem with the drawer, too.
So that's still not finished.
And I haven't had a chance to sit and talk with him because he's kind of been tied up these days.
But, you know, when I do get a chance, I will sit down and ask him exactly what happened.
What about the Mayor?
Through the re-initiation of the recall, what's the attitude of the Mayor of Phoenix been toward you?
What's interesting is he is running a candidate against me in the recall.
Oh, he is?
Yes, and that was a surprise to everybody because it was on the last day, on the last hour that he put in his petition.
Up to that point was only one person running against me.
It happens to be a guy who's been harassing me and ridiculing me and stalking me for five years now.
And I filed a police report on him and, you know, it's been a joke around that this is the ultimate stalk.
So I guess it kind of is.
But then when this other candidate put in on the last day, it was not only a surprise to me because he had asked me for my endorsement, But, uh, he ended up, uh, making, uh, he had agreed with all the other candidates in the regular election that none of them would run against me in the recall.
And then he did it at the last minute, and, you know, it just, it, it really soured the whole thing.
But both of my opponents have put in their literature about the, uh, UFO question.
Uh, win, lose, or draw, Frances, what are your political plans?
Well, let's see.
If I lose, I'll be out looking for a job on Wednesday.
We're quick in Arizona.
Well, I'm looking at possibly going for Secretary of State next year.
Secretary of State.
I think, you know, that it should be a much more active type job.
Well, given the probabilities of successful governorships that you should be in line for, the governorship at some point, right?
Well, you know, my sister called from New York and I said to her, why don't you move out here?
And she said, oh no, you're the guy that eats your governors for breakfast.
So, I mean, it's been a long series of things like that out here.
Well, it's a significant office.
Maybe listeners don't know, but Arizona doesn't have a lieutenant governorship.
The Secretary of State is the number two person in Arizona.
Uh-huh.
So, in other words, you would be able to press some of these issues with a lot more vigor if you were able to achieve that sort of office.
And that's a possibility.
And, you know, I look at it as The Secretary of State is supposed to be a helpmate to the Governor.
And that's kind of a new idea for that office these days, but, you know, that's really what it's supposed to be.
And also, someone who looks to make sure that all the departments are doing what they're supposed to be doing.
And, uh, you know, checking into things that may be irregular, including maybe Lights Over Phoenix.
Including Lights Over Phoenix, uh, indeed.
And Richard, we're going to depend on you and Frances for any updates on the investigation, such as it isn't, I suppose, or is, into the lights over Phoenix.
Well, there is one question I want to ask Frances, and I probably should do it on the air.
Maybe I should do it off the air, but I'll do it on the air.
Alright.
You had, when we last talked, you had said that Senator McCain was, how should I say, Re-establishing his primacy with the Air Force by demanding a fuller explanation or some kind of investigation.
Where does that stand right now?
That's at a total standstill and we have not gotten a response back from his office, but I still have faith that we will.
He has stated that if they came back saying they would not investigate, that he would then re-ask And go and push harder.
And so we're waiting now to see if that's what he has done.
And I'm hoping that he will.
Well, needless to say, if you win tomorrow or today, it would not hurt.
Unless it would be us the next morning.
All right.
Richard, again, your event coming up on the 11th.
If people want to inquire, apparently you've got even more shocking stuff.
We have some pretty astonishing things.
I've been dribbling out some of the photographs on the website throughout the last week.
I wish I could be there.
Say again?
I wish I could be there.
Oh, I wish you could too.
I'd rather have you than any of those other guys.
Don't say that.
And if you go to our website, which of course you can reach through Art Bell's website at www.artbell.com, you will see some provocative images.
And what we've done is to lay out images before and after.
When they came in raw, and then when NASA changed them.
And we've been increasing the level of artificiality.
You know, I'm kind of doing this in an asymptotic curve, as a friend of mine loves to say.
Well, tonight we've got this astonishing image A really crystal clear image of this thing that looks for all the world like a lifting body and similar, not identical, but similar.
Because, you know, form follows function.
Sure.
And all lifting bodies kind of look the same, all right?
But it shouldn't be lying in the Martian desert around the Mars Pathfinder Lander.
And we're going to be laying that out.
We're going to be, you know, bringing David Oates on with his reversals.
He's got some pretty amazing things.
We've got geological analyses, and then we have this remarkable, arcane, hidden history of JPL.
The agendas now are becoming clearer and clearer, and it's time to bring out on the table how JPL, the people who basically own the solar system and are not showing us what's really there, how they came to exist, how they came to get a lock on This extraordinary data.
Alright, well that's quite a full plate you've got there, and that'll all be dispensed on the 11th, and if anybody wants tickets for it, it's area code 818-952-4195.
That's 818-952-4195.
And, uh, Frances, anything you want to say to the people of Phoenix here in the last moment or so?
Well, it's kind of not particularly to Phoenix, but to Richard.
First of all, Richard, thank you so much.
And on your invitation that I got, it says 4135.
No, it's 4195.
Okay, but it says 8189524135.
That was an old number, I think, which they changed.
Okay, good.
As long as people can still get it.
And one thing my husband said was because he's in electronics, Bell, the thing with Bell Lab, they did the first installation of photovoltaic systems in 1956.
Yes.
And they, it was like nothing, you know, no gradual into this.
It was immediately into it.
And back in the early 70s, when they were teaching transistors and diodes, and he was in school, they knew what it did, but they didn't know how it did it.
And if they invented it, why didn't they know how?
Well, it's all a very good, uh, it's a very good point.
Well, anyway, Frances, we all want to wish you luck in, uh, the recall election, uh, today.
And we'll know by this time tomorrow night.
And we'll know by this time tomorrow night, and we'll, of course, get it on the air, and maybe we'll have you on the air and, uh, and, uh, uh, sort of either celebrate or, um, uh, drown in our beer.
I was going to say cry in the beer.
Yeah, that's right.
All right, then I'm going to thank Frances, and I'm going to thank Richard, and we're going to hold on to Steve.
So, Frances, Richard, thank you.
Say good night.
Thank you, Art.
Good night, Frances.
All right, and Steve, you're going to stick around for a while, all right?
When we come back, I'd like to get into the particulars of this politics of UFOs.
I'll probably take you somewhere you don't want to go.
We'll be right back.
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Is that some hunk of music or what?
All right, we're going now back to Steve Bassett in Washington, D.C.
He is probably the nation's only UFO lobbyist, which puts him in a very unique position.
Do you tell people, Steve, that that's what you are?
Absolutely.
What kind of reactions do you get back there when you say that?
Generally, it's always a certain amount of amusement.
The smirk is the fundamental human reaction to something uncomfortable and really fundamental.
And a smirk is not necessarily a bad thing.
It's human nature.
And you get a certain amount of that.
But to be honest with you, because I really don't mirror it all,
and if somebody asks me that fatal question, and what do you do, Steve?
I tell them.
They get a little kind of amused, and then they may say something,
and then we get down to business.
I found that if you really treat this as simply another issue,
something fundamental, intriguing, and try not, in no way, feel apologetic about it, generally people very quickly
We'll then start discussing it on fairly straightforward terms.
So I haven't really had a problem.
I've enjoyed talking with countless people on that subject, and I've had very few people really decide to give me a hard time.
All right.
Well, here's somebody who wants to give you a hard time, and Francis, too.
It's by fact.
And this man says, Courage has nothing to do with Ms.
Barwood's efforts to bring in the silicone wafer factory, which is the original reason that she was being subject to a recall election.
Now, how do you react to that?
Oh, that's pretty easy.
You know, I don't know if your listeners fully understood about this election, and maybe they did.
Let me clarify.
There is an election being held for the council on Tuesday.
It's the standard election for the council.
In that election, there are people running for her seat for next year.
Simultaneously to that, there are people running for her seat for the last three months.
I do not know personally, maybe this has ever happened before, I do not know of this ever occurring in a local election, ever.
This is extremely unusual.
She has done some things which people don't agree with, and that's fine.
And recall elections at the local level are hardly uncommon.
They happen all the time.
But because she only has a couple of months to go, I hardly think that in a couple of months she's going to Pop another silicone wafer factory into Phoenix.
Well, it was my understanding that they dropped the original recall.
Yeah.
I mean, they dropped it.
They found a lot of the signatures weren't valid or something, and they dropped it.
Yeah.
A very common event.
They had a recall thing.
They went out and got the petition signatures and the signatures rather, recall signatures, and they didn't quite add up.
They were thrown out.
And as a result, it went into suspension.
I think they pressed it further.
And there was a sort of an understanding that was reached.
She decided not to run.
They would just let it go because frankly, it's a waste of money.
So they didn't bring this up then and reinitiate the recall until she began asking questions about the lights.
Absolutely.
You know, some people may say, look, I don't care about UFOs.
This is my, this is our chance to get her.
And so it's not the UFO issue.
It's her other positions.
But you know, when you run a politician out, which is a couple of months ago, someone who I think nobody claims that this woman doesn't have integrity, hasn't served at her.
At her best ability.
I mean, she's been there five and a half years.
No one's claiming that.
This is simply a wonderful example for people to sort of see that when issues like this are in play, people do strange things.
Let me go further.
I think particularly the listeners of this show are quite aware that if you go back over the last 40 years, a whole lot of people have suffered because of their position.
on the ufo question uh... francis barwood is is not alone uh... maybe she's the
first council person to to face this
but any of our community countless people have paid significant prices are simply
because they considered this a valid issue
you we can have had some belaboring it but uh... quickly people have lost their
their spouses they've lost their jobs they've lost their tenure
they've had suits filed against them John Mack, whose credentials are probably in the top one-tenth of one percent of academics in the country, by almost any standard you would apply, had to spend a quarter million dollars to defend his position against an inquiry by Harvard into his situation.
Which is sort of a nice way of saying you better get your lawyer's partner because we're coming after you.
And the list goes on and on and on.
In fact, there's even more ominous stories that one can get into.
A lot of people have suffered at this.
Linda Moulton Howe told the story of a murder of somebody who she rather imagined or thought was about to come out or had information regarding the The technology that might have gone to Bell Labs.
That's a long time ago.
I'm going to read you a fax and take you into an area I know you don't want to go into, but I'm going to read it anyway.
It comes from Gene, listening to KSFO in San Francisco.
Gene lives in Mountain View.
Dear Art, the following information is very disturbing and people's lives are at stake.
I cannot give you more details now because I need Full authorization from my source, but I will hopefully do it tomorrow.
This I can tell you now.
As you may know, Dr. Stephen Greer has come down with a relatively rare but devastating kind of skin cancer.
Then I learned this week that both he and his assistant, Sherry, have now succumbed to the same identical disease.
The other very unsettling news is that New Mexico Congressman, Stephen Schiff, has also recently contracted the same cancer.
These are very courageous people that have rattled a lot of sacred cages.
In fact, I couldn't help thinking of Kathy Keaton, who had rattled some cages before she contracted her
unusual galloping cancer.
You may recall Kathy Keaton, a Bob Guccione's wife.
You may also recall, or not, that she published Omni Magazine,
which went after the UFO issue like crazy.
Um, and...
Anyway, she goes on, we must salute and support people like those, and Councilwoman Frances Barwood, that have taken a great challenge in their personal life for the sake of all of us, and I include in that yourself, Art.
So there you have it.
We weren't going to talk about this on the air, Steve, but I know you have some information on it.
So without assigning specific allegations, because we can't do that, what do you know?
Well, I think, and I hope you won't get mad at me here, but I I think that what I want to say about that is this, that yes, there are people in the community that are aware of some health problems that are plaguing some of the prominent researchers, particularly activist researchers, or people that have been prominent in the news or in the issues.
And certainly Stephen Schiff is one, Jerry Adamek, Stephen Greer.
There has been some information that has not been verified regarding Jenny Randelson, England, but I really don't know whether it's accurate.
Kathy Keaton?
Kathy Keaton is an interesting case.
Let's just say that there are people in the community that are watching this very closely.
I'm certainly one of them.
We're going to continue to watch it.
We're going to sort of take stock of our colleagues.
And is there anybody, Steve, that can run any numbers on the probability?
You mean actuarial analysis of people in a loose set of 20 or 30?
Yeah.
Oh yeah, any insurance underwriter could probably do that, and maybe somebody will.
But let me just say this.
The reason this is a tricky area to go to, and why it would concern me, is that once again, whatever one might think about something like that, and the UFO community has had rumors like this in the past, whatever one might think about it, it gets back to a very important statement that was made earlier, and that is that the government is not a monolith.
One part may be doing something, one part is doing something else, there's not agreement across the board, and ultimately this issue will be resolved In a coordinated sort of interaction between a lot of people and a lot of organizations and a lot of departments, and hopefully it will be resolved in a way that's positive for our culture, our country, and for the planet.
And whether there's some awkward aspects to certain parts of it, well, I guess we'll have to sort that out later.
But it would be a mistake to focus on some of the more intriguing things to the And sacrifice the larger issue which is essentially how are we going to go from, and if you don't mind I'll use this as a launch pad to go into a broader discussion, how are we going to go from the period that we've just been through into a new phase?
And the best way to get into that is to invite your listeners to kind of step back a couple of miles up into that space and look down at a bigger picture just for a little bit and get a very quick overview.
Which I'll try to be as quick as possible.
The UFO movement is now 50 years old.
It's been a very long, strange trip.
And that 50 years, by and large, has been about knowing.
Primarily, it is about knowing.
People inexorably drawn into wonderful evidence and hints and clues, desperately wanting to find out more, extremely curious, being, in other words, human.
And all kinds of things have happened and a lot of effort has been put into the act of knowing.
But it is inevitable that you must go from that, from knowing, to the next phase, meaning, okay, you know it, what are you going to do about it?
And that is when you get into the politics of UFOs.
And I've got to tell you, if you think the UFO situation is complicated, which I don't, Politics will really shock you, because human beings have a wonderful knack of taking things which are maybe not all that complicated and making them really, really murky.
The UFO issue at its core is not that complicated.
Really, it boils down to this.
There's some other bipeds around that may be smarter than us, and they definitely drive a much later And they seem to have some interest in us, and they hang around our neighborhood.
And that's pretty much it.
The rest is sort of detail.
But then, when you say, okay, now how are 250 million people in, hundreds of institutions, and social groups, ethnic groups, religious groups, thrown in the United Nations just for fun, going to deal with it, react to it, address it, inculcate it?
Well, now you're getting into some really complicated stuff.
And of course, that is where we're going next.
And continuing with this overview, this transition has actually started.
This transition from this phase of learning and knowing to, what are you going to do about it?
I would say you could sort of say it began in 1968.
And this is debatable, but I think it's a good point of departure.
In 1968, July, we had the first and only congressional hearing, I believe, on the UFO subject.
and i think the public donald with one of the key testimonies there there were
others uh... and that was to me the real first time that you had a
formal political engagement on this issue in this country
most people help not everybody has a hold of time but most people who remember the nineteen fifty eight with a
was not a non-trivial It was one of the most interesting years we've ever been through.
Oh yes.
And so it's unfortunate that that particular very significant event happened to be buried amongst a lot of things.
And then when you couple that with the fact that the level of evidence, the amount of mass material and documentation really was nothing compared to what it is now.
That event is like a little splash in the pond, and it disappeared, but that was the beginning.
The next phase of political engagement, which is what I call, which is really part of the creation of the activist wing of the UFO movement, was about 10 years later, when the FOIA requests started being filed.
And I think a number of people were involved, but if I'm not mistaken, Peter Gersten, was a major player back then.
He was an attorney that, starting in 19, I think, uh, 77, he filed his first FOIA to try to get general documents on the UFO situation out of the government.
And he continued to file those FOIAs through 1982.
And, as we know, we have been playing around with a lot of those documents ever since.
Uh, and, of course, there's been a lot of discussion about how much they were.
I've always presumed, and check me where I'm wrong here, Steve, Freedom of information filings or not, if they really didn't want you to know something, you could file until the cows came home, and you wouldn't get what they didn't want you to know.
The FOI story is a wonderful story.
It's a classic example of just how subtle and tricky the politics is, right?
The FOI, and Peter Gersten will tell you this.
I was discussing this with him recently, and he will tell you this.
It was a game.
It was a little dance that we played, perhaps mostly to the benefit of the government.
They passed a law which said, hey, we'll let you have some documents.
And that seemed like a nice thing, a wonderful thing for them to do.
It was just after the war and people were being just a little twitchy about the government at that time.
And so it seemed like a nice thing.
And so they said, fine.
And so we said, great, we'll file some of these requests.
But when you look at the process that you go through, the government has all the cards.
They had a means by which they could get summary judgment after the initial thing and make
essentially a summary decision about holding something back.
They had the control of what was going to be redacted and on and on and on.
And of course there could be whole pools of documents which they simply wouldn't even
let you know about.
But they would let some documents out and people would see them and they'd say, well
that's very interesting.
And occasionally they would make mistakes.
They'd make a little tiny mistake and you'd get a little something and then you'd file
This went on for years.
And it sort of, people were sort of happy with that.
Well, this is nice.
We're doing a dance.
We weren't going anywhere really, but we were doing a dance.
And I find it kind of intriguing.
There were two things, though, that came out of that.
It was a bit of a mistake on their part.
And that is that those documents did two very significant things.
One, if you read them, right?
There's nothing that's going to shock you.
There's no smoking gun there.
But when you read them, you quickly realize that they confirm, on paper, the fundamental reality of those objects.
And this is, I'm using Peter Gersten's words here.
And that the people that were reporting them were reputable.
So essentially, while it didn't prove anything, Two very significant pillars of the UFO evidence were put in place partially by the FOIA.
So it's not a total loss.
But in terms of the FOIA, an actual tool to get the real stuff, not a chance.
But it is a way to take the pressure off, right?
And kind of defuse the situation.
And so that was a significant activist activity.
And then things quieted down for a while.
All right, let's hold it right there.
We're at the bottom of the hour, so hang tight.
By the way, I want to welcome KCNN.
That's KCNN in Grand Forks, North Dakota.
Great to be back on the air in Grand Forks.
They are 1590 on the dial with big 5,000 watts.
I imagine heard regionally all over the place up there.
That's KCNN in Grand Forks, North Dakota.
Bottom of the hour.
I've got, actually I've got the only UFO lobbyist in Washington, Steve Bassett, and he'll be right back.
The Talk Station AM 1500 KSTP.
The Talk Station AM 1500 KSTP.
Mark Bell is talking to first-time callers at Area Code 702-727-1222.
That's Area Code 702-727-1222.
That's area code 702-727-1222.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye.
Now again, here's Art.
From the Kingdom of Nye, indeed.
That's, for those of you who always ask about that, that's Nye County, Nevada, which is where I happen to be located.
That's N-Y-E.
We call it the Kingdom of Nye for good reasons.
One day we'll talk about that.
Right now, back to, oh, well, no, wait, we're not quite ready to go back to Washington, D.C.
just yet, but in a moment we will, with Steve Bassett, who is a nation's only UFO lobbyist in Washington.
Alright, I think, Steve, most people understand what a lobbyist is.
Most people probably don't understand what a UFO lobbyist is, and what you're trying to get done.
So, what is the work you do?
Well, fundamentally, it's part of the UFO activism, the activist wing, which started really flowering in 1991, and it's part of that process, and it's simply aimed at Bring the government into a disclosure posture to readjust the social contract so that the amount of information available to us on a range of issues, not the least of which is this one, is appropriate, that it's in balance with what we should know, what we should have a sense of what's going on in our society.
And so it's not that we have no money to give them, and I'm not asking them for any money.
It is a non-financial thing.
It is a moral, ethical, and truly political enterprise.
But I am not alone.
And what I'd like to do is to give a very quick overview of the activist UFO movement that has developed in the last 6-7 years.
And then hopefully come back and I can flesh it out at another time.
Alright.
But here's what we got.
Peter Gersten, whose FOIA requests were important back then because he also accompanied them with lawsuits, has re-emerged.
He is very soon going to file a new FOIA aimed directly at the Army to try to get documents pertinent to the disclosures of Lt.
Col.
Corso.
He may accompany that with a lawsuit.
That is an example of a more defined and precise kind of FOIA.
That should be very interesting.
At the same time, there are two processes going on, and this whole situation is escalating very rapidly.
We're talking about an exponential curve, asymptotic.
In fact, and this is your soundbite for the evening, I'm willing to go out on a limb and say things are moving so quickly that I would not be uncomfortable in predicting That within 12 to 18 months, we will in fact have a situation where we have essentially a political acknowledgement of the alien hypothesis by our own government and the institutions that we look up to.
Well, that's quite a soundbite.
12 to 18 months.
12 to 18 months.
And I can support it.
I don't think I can give you the support in the next 15 minutes, so I'll come back for that.
But let me give you again the overview.
Two processes have been going on for the last six years and perhaps even longer.
One is an inside process and the other is an outside process.
Let's talk about the outside process.
Sure.
Both processes are behind the scenes, which is hardly surprising.
I mean, we all know what we have to do in a situation because of the nature of the subject matter.
The outside, we have one.
We have FOIA requests being thrown in.
We have a certain amount of demonstrations that are now coming into play.
A principal organization there is Operation Right to Know.
Citizens Against UFO Secrecy.
These are organizations that are following a very time-honored tradition that we got used to in the 60s and 70s.
They're simply protesting this idea out in the open, and it attracts media, it attracts press, and it attracts some government attention.
Wonderful.
They should keep doing it.
But something else has been happening.
Over that period, people in the government, this is hardly surprising, have been coming out and talking to people in the UFO community in very complex ways that I couldn't even begin to describe.
Directly, indirectly, sometimes by phone, sometimes personally.
And they have been trying to get a sense of what the prospects are for them to talk about their personal experience.
The idea that something like this could go on and no one would know about it is, of course, the case.
Plenty of people know about it.
But these are good people, honest people, and they have been coming forward.
And over the last number of years, a pool of these people have been accumulating behind, I think, four fundamental points.
One of them is Robert Dean.
Robert Dean has attracted a pool of witnesses which have, in various ways, communicated to him a willingness to talk about this subject under the proper circumstances.
Another pool of witnesses has gathered behind Stephen Greer.
There are some people that have gathered behind Richard Hogan, particularly NASA people.
And if I'm not mistaken, I haven't fully confirmed this, but I'm pretty confident, there's a group of people that are behind William Hamilton.
And then there are some others, I'm sure, that are in connection with other people.
The numbers are well over 100 now.
So what you have is, you have these discussions going on behind the scenes, off the record, people being protected of their identity, of individuals in the government who are coming outside and positioning themselves.
And the government knows this.
This has been generally written up fairly well.
A number of these people, as you know, have gone public.
They've gone openly into the field, but there are quite a few more.
Some of the most interesting, some of the most certainly compelling are not.
You know the old saying, the higher up the food chain you are, the more you've got to lose, the less likely you're going to take the chances.
At the same time, this process is going on.
There is another process that's been going on behind the scenes within the government.
Meaning that people within the government have been meeting with members of the UFO community, in particular, Stephen Greer.
There's no question that he has had quite a few meetings since 1991 with members of the government.
Now, this is a different situation.
These are people that, in many cases, are not in the know.
They don't have testimony.
They would like to know what is going on.
And so they have, again, off the record, talked to people behind the scenes.
Tell me what's going on.
And in return, they would provide some information as well.
Kind of a cross-briefing.
Sure.
And a lot of information and a lot of positioning has taken place because of these kinds of meetings.
All, again, private.
Now, it would be wonderful to be able to throw the names around.
And we need to get to the point where we can.
But the fact is that people will not discuss these things if their name is going to be put out.
And so, in the interest of keeping the dialogue going, those meetings are private.
So what you have is a substantial amount of what I call forward coalitioning, in which the UFO community is starting to build coalitions outside of itself, into the mainstream.
Not only the government, but also the media.
And so you have a pincer movement here.
You have people inside the government getting a little more knowledgeable, and then you've got people outside the government that are in position to help others testify, to speak to these issues.
Now, at the same time this is going on, other pressures are being brought to bear.
Anyone who, if you look at politics today, you understand that there is a blur now between politicians and the media and the entertainment industry.
They're just moving in and out of each other.
Yes.
The politicians become journalists, the journalists become politicians, and some of them even become movie stars, such as Fred Thompson.
Meanwhile, the entertainment industry is pouring huge sums of money into the political coffers.
While they make very political movies, they're very much in the know.
They have a lot of influence on politics.
And guess what's happening?
Well, the media is producing movies and entertainment which is having a tremendous impact on the public awareness of these these issues one after another one after another and
without question contact is a perfect example incredibly political movie aimed directly
at President Clinton the message was quite clear would you like to be
one of the most forgettable presidents in history or would you like to be
one of the most important presidents in history well he bristled and
threatened lawsuits for the use of his image and all the rest of that an appropriate
response But regardless of his response, there's no question that movie had political contact.
But beyond these kinds of pressures, there's even more direct and straightforward issues.
And that's where we get down to some things that are near and dear to me.
All right.
Well, the whole idea is to move the government towards more disclosure.
Exactly.
Even full disclosure.
Even partial disclosure.
Now, the question is, what can the average person listening this morning do to help?
There is something they can do.
What has emerged out of this, what I call, pooling of witnesses, is a petition drive which started in Roswell.
This was launched, this was kind of given to the UFO community, launched into the UFO community in Roswell by Bob and Cecilia Dean, who founded Stargate International, and the Coalition for Honesty and Government.
This petition is a non-proprietary petition which any group and individual can access, distribute, We're then going to collect the signatures at a simple point.
It'll be brought over to me, and then we're going to deliver these things in an appropriate fashion to Washington.
We're shooting for a million signatures.
If I may, I would like to very quickly read that petition, if I could.
Yes, please do.
And tell us, to whom would you deliver it?
It would be delivered in a formal fashion to the Senate and the House.
All right.
With the full media regalia.
This petition was very carefully written.
To create the best possible scenario to produce a hearing on the Hill.
Alright.
People that sign it are signing this.
They're saying that I, the undersigned, petition my Congress to hold in 1997 an open hearing in which government, military, civilian, contract, and agency employees, active and retired, are permitted to give testimony regarding their personal knowledge of any UFO-related evidence.
This testimony to be given under immunity by waiver of any applicable security, oath, or agreement of non-disclosure.
Very simple, very straightforward.
Now, what we're hoping to do is, at the same time people are talking this issue up on the hill, and these witnesses are gathering behind Stephen Greer and Bob Dean and Richard Hoagland and Hamilton and others, We're trying to get the general population across the board, not just the UFO community, behind a simple concept.
Not, let's find out what the P.I.F.s do, or is Roswell real, or some other complex issue that the government would then tear to pieces, but rather ask the Congress to do nothing more than a constituent service, provide an opportunity for patriotic people who are under oath but desperate to talk about something very important, to speak With immunity, so that their careers will not be hampered, under camera, under oath, about this issue.
Let's see what happens.
If it proves to be silly and it's great, then you've solved the problem, haven't you?
But if it proves to be compelling, then you may go down as one of the greatest Congresses in history.
It's a simple, straightforward approach.
Now, we're trying to involve the nation this way, by getting it out on the web, getting it on the net, distributing these things for re-copy and re-copy and redistribution, so it becomes kind of like a, you can say it, a virus.
And there's a lot of places that you can get that petition these days.
If I may, may I tell them?
You may, and we can get a link up if you'll give us a good website.
I'd be happy to.
Let me tell you the ways that you can get this petition.
There's one really easy way, and that is that you can simply email one of these two addresses, and it'll be emailed back to you as an attachment.
You can email Stargate International's email, which is stargate at rtd.com.
And one of Bob and Cecilia's tireless volunteers will email you back a Word 6.0 attachment so that you can then take that document, print it, copy it, distribute it further, Or you can even pass it out by email to other people.
Or you can email me at ParadigmRG.
P-A-R-A-D-I-G-M-R-G at AOL.com.
And I will be happy to send out an attachment.
But, it's turning up elsewhere.
Microsoft Network, the internet wing of the growing Microsoft media empire, which is non-trivial, believe me, and I think this is a very significant thing.
I believe you.
Has a UFO reality now.
It has a presence, and they're putting a lot of money into it.
They have some fine people producing it, and they have showed a great deal of interest, guess what, in the political side.
This presence on the MSN, and part of it you only have to be an MSN to get to, and part of it is open to the outside, can be reached this way.
the MSN people can not only learn about this petition, but they can also download it or
print it directly off the site by going to forums.msn.com.
Forums?
forumsplural.msn.com forward slash ufo.
There's no www there.
That's the URL.
I understand.
And there's a lot of political content on that.
And then the flip side of that is the WatchFire site.
Project WatchFire.
Which is very interesting.
A lot of technology into that site.
And I think it has a wonderful future.
That, Earl, is watchfire, W-A-T-C-H-F-I-R-E, watchfire.msn.com forward slash watchfire.
And that petition is eventually going to be there.
Then there is the Stargate Earl.
You're saying the petition, just so I'm sure of what we're saying, the petition is available at forums.msn.com forward slash ufo.
I've got a big website that has about 5 million hits since the first of the year, so we can get it out to a lot of people.
If I put a link to that site, people can go get the form.
Absolutely, or we can actually put the petition on your site so they don't even have to link.
I can talk to you about that.
All right.
Good.
Now, the other place they can go is the Stargate Earl.
Soon.
The pitch is not there now, but it will be soon.
And the Stargate's website is www.rtd.com forward slash tilldaystargate.
All right.
These are a lot of addresses.
Here's what I recommend.
Okay.
Why don't you send If I think what happens, what will happen, if this starts turning up at dozens and dozens of websites and getting passed around by email, this petition could saturate the internet and be around the country in hard form.
Uh, and produce the million signatures that we want.
If we get a hearing in which just the first level hearing where the government employees who have personal testimony takes place under camera, I do not believe that the status quo can be maintained and that we will move almost instantly into almost a disclosure posture.
So we have already a very straightforward approach to deal with the Congress.
But at the same time, there are other things going on which are putting pressure on the status quo.
And there's not enough time to go into all of them now.
But I think what people have to understand is that from the beginning, particularly for politicians, this was an extremely difficult equation.
Of course.
If it was true, It was incredibly important, incredibly implicative, and it was dynamite.
It was absolutely dynamite.
And to touch it, you really had to be in a very strong position or you would be ruined.
And if it wasn't true, you would be ruined.
It was lose-lose, and it has always been that way.
When Steve Schiff comes out, And has to undergo the ridicule and being buried with all the UFO requests and everything because he's the only person standing there all alone.
Then he gets ill, perhaps from the stress.
That just makes it harder for other people to make that step.
But what they're missing is that if 10 or 20 Steve Schiff step forward, well now it's a different ballgame.
No one's shouldering at all.
Now it's more normal business, and it's spread around a little bit, and these people can talk to individuals without having too much pressure put on them, and a dialogue can begin.
So we just need to get away from this lone ranger to a real posse of people on the Hill that have decided to take on this issue a little bit, look at it without getting carried away, and then it'll start to diffuse and get calmed down, and we can move toward real policy, real decisions, instead of this hype Hyperactive kind of thinking that's constantly there, whether it's in the UFO community or in the mainstream community.
It's very difficult.
All right, Steve, I want to ask you this.
The government had a jewel of an opportunity to move toward disclosure if they wanted to with the 50th anniversary of Roswell.
Instead, they had this incredibly humorous press conference Which seemed to move in exactly the opposite direction, or did it?
Or was it so humorous that it was intended to actually promote the cause?
Look, this is one of the reasons why I'm willing to put a few dollars behind my little wager that we're 12 to 18 months from crossing the paradigm line.
There is kind of an escalating collapse of the government's position.
It's like a boat sinking.
And he starts slow, a few weeks, and then finally when it fills up with water it goes down real quick.
The Air Force has been in a posture of having to catch up, putting out one ridiculous statement after another.
So what's going on there?
Well, I'll tell you what's going on.
All of these statements and all of this kind of stuff has to be handled by the middle management people.
The people that are really not in the know per se.
They're just doing their job.
And they're told to put out this nonsense, and really what's going on is they're deliberately doing it so badly, so that they can put out a message.
It's a call for help.
They're saying, people were tied up here in a knot.
There's really no way that we can act unilaterally without creating all kinds of problems.
Would you please come save us?
It's that absurd.
Any junior in high school who could analyze the Air Force posture and reports on this since 1947, and absolutely shred it.
It's almost kind of sad, and yet it's not.
The fact that they're doing it at all shows that there is a lot of things going on behind the scenes, different levels, in different ways, as the government is trying to posture and position itself for what seems to be virtually an inevitability.
Alright, listen, Steve.
We're out of time.
Trust me, get that form as an attachment to Keith.
We'll get it up on our website, and you'll get plenty of action.
All right.
I really appreciate that.
I know the deans appreciate that.
And, well, if we pass those signatures on the steps of the House and the Senate, I'd like you to be there.
I'd love to be there.
All right.
Done deal.
And we'll have you back soon, Steve.
Thank you.
I enjoy it very much.
Steve Bassett from Washington, D.C.
The nation's only UFO lobbyist.
What a job, huh?
I'm Art Bell from the high desert.
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