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Sept. 4, 1997 - Art Bell

03:54:04

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Murder in Brentwood - Mark Fuhrman

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01:36:23

mark fuhrman

01:28:56

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I bid you all good morning, evening, morning, whatever it is in your time zone, in all these many, many time zones, stretching from the Cape Canaan and Hawaiian Island chains in the west eastward to the Caribbean, the U.S. Virgin Islands, south into South America, north all the way to the Pole, and worldwide on the internet.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
		Good morning.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		Coming up shortly, Mark Furman.
		Detective Mark Furman.
		Now retired.
unidentified		It should be very, very interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'd like to welcome WERC in Birmingham, Alabama.
		Big one down there, 960 on the dial.
		5,000 non-directional watts, obviously serving the entire region.
		But from Birmingham, Alabama.
		So welcome, WERC.
		Glad to have you on board.
		The only piece of news I see that really knocked my socks off was about the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 story on Reuters tonight that just cleared the wire.
		It's going to run on 60 minutes this Sunday.
		Check this out.
		Titled, Russia Said Missing Many Nukes.
		This will slay you.
		Unintended.
		Former Russian National Security Advisor Alexander Lebit says the Russian military has lost track of more than 100 suitcase-sized nuclear bombs, any one of which could kill up to 100,000 people.
		In an interview with CBS News' 60 Minutes program to be aired this Sunday, Levitt said the devices, quote, are not under the control of the armed forces of Russia, end quote.
		He said the devices made to look like suitcases could be detonated by one person within half an hour.
		Levitt said he did not know what had happened to the missing bombs.
		So that would be 100 of them folks, the size of a suitcase.
		And that really bears a little thought, particularly in view of the suicide bombings in Israel yesterday and many, many other days as well.
		If there's 100 out there, you've got to imagine that Hamas eventually will get their hands on at least one.
		Let's talk for a second about Ruthie and Larry Brown and their company, which is GMX.
		It is a magnetic water conditioner, and it works.
		Can I tell you it works?
		People think there is no way magnetic arrays clamp to pipes, which is what this is, could possibly condition water.
		Because they say there's no way it could pull it through the pipe.
		Well, the way it works is not that way at all.
		It actually affects the minerals as the water flows through the pipe.
		And it simply changes their properties magnetically so they don't stick to anything.
		And when they don't stick to anything, you've effectively got hard water licked.
		Anyway, look, it comes with a 90-day money-back guarantee and a lifetime warranty, and it works.
		They guarantee it.
		So take my word for it, try it, and if you find I lied, which I'm not, you get your money back.
		Period.
		The number is 1-800-406-0469.
		That's 1-800-406-0469.
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		Would you like to stop that pain in your joints now?
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		You can get them at a fraction of what you'd pay in stores.
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		Gelatin's full of the same kind of protein found in cartilage, the stuff that cushions your joints so they don't hurt.
		As we age, most of us get arthritis and our cartilage begins getting brittle.
		Studies show that gelatin nutritionally supports cartilage regeneration.
		Gelatin, along with glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate, are found in the arthritis assist formula.
		Stop those aches and pains.
		Without drugs, by using all-natural arthritis assist, here's the offer.
		Order a 90-day supply of arthritis assist, and you'll get a pain relief cream that provides immediate relief to your joints absolutely free.
		Call 1-800-232-5665.
		It's guaranteed to work or your money back, and you can't get it in stores.
		Call now, 1-800-2325-665.
		You've got nothing to lose but the pain.
		All right.
		Here from Idaho is retired Detective Mark Furman.
		Welcome to the show.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, thanks, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Great to have you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How's retirement?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's pretty hectic.
		I don't think I'd ever even consider it retirement yet.
		I've got more on my plate now than I did when I was on the job, I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know the feeling.
		I used to work at a radio station, Mark, and then they built me a studio here at home, and they said, gee, you'll have so much time, you're not commuting 120 miles anymore.
		And now I'm where everybody can find me, and I have no time.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		And you have no place to hide.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No place to hide.
		That's exactly right.
		So you're staying busy.
		You're speaking, I guess, engagements, that kind of thing?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, not really.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		I did quite a bit of media during the launch of my book, about six weeks on TV, and then I did probably, I'd say upwards of 250 radio shows.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, after that, I immediately started researching for another book.
		And at the same time, I've been doing book signings for this book.
		And I continuously do radio shows, you know, not as frequent, but I still do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Murder in Brentwood is the book.
		And I'm sure we'll talk about it in detail.
		How long were you in the police force?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		20 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		20 years.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		To the day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To the day?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		To the minute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		I always said that I would retire at 20 years and 20 seconds.
		And not because I didn't love the job.
		I just figured that you do your time, you learn something, and then you move to it, so you have another career in front of you.
		I figured I had another 20 years as a private investigator for maybe a corporation or insurance company.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much of it was for LAPD?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		All 20.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All 20.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		When I said 20 years, 20 minutes, I came into the academy at 8 o'clock in the morning, August 4th, 1975.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		I signed my papers 8 o'clock in the morning, August 4th, 1995.
unidentified		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know what you wanted to do then, and you did it, and that's good.
		You say you've got another career, or you want another career, or you can have another career.
		What would it be?
		You really going to go into some sort of private detective work?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, kind of a long way around the barn, instead of now working for a corporation as an investigator, what I plan on doing, I am currently investigating and researching an unsolved homicide to write a nonfiction book, which I hope will bring that case to a conclusion.
		So, in essence, I'm actually being more of a detective than I was or I could have been with a private corporation.
		So, I'm doing the same thing, really.
		It's what I know, and I don't have any reason to deviate from that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long were you on the force with Los Angeles before you became a detective?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Thirteen years I spent in the street.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thirteen years, that's a long time in the street.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a long time in the street.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I did a lot of things in the street, though.
		I actually worked as a detective after my first three years in gangs for about almost three years.
		And that was a federally funded gang program where we had teams, three teams in this gang unit.
		We really just took everything from the time we're at the murder scene.
		We just worked as a team to track down all the clues, all the follow-ups, all the interviews, all the investigation, all the intelligence, and all the enforcement, and all the search warrants, and whatever it led to.
		So we worked as a team.
		So actually I had a lot of detective experience there, and then I worked a narcotics task force and surveillance units and the such.
		So it wasn't just a uniform.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		You mentioned gangs since you worked gangs.
		I interviewed Country Star Merle Haggard for five hours the other night.
		We're talking about Las Vegas, and I'm just over the hill from Las Vegas.
		Years ago, Mark, in Las Vegas, we didn't have a gang problem.
		No gang problem.
		And the reason we had no gang problem was because the guys who ran Las Vegas generally took those kind of problems out into the desert.
		They were dealt with pretty much that way.
		No gang problem.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		I know exactly what you're saying.
		You know, at Vegas, if you come in early in the morning when the sun's just starting to come up, you look over the desert, there's all these kind of lumps.
		You kind of wonder what they are sometimes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I don't wonder.
		But things changed.
		You know, Las Vegas became a sort of a combination gambling, gaming town, Disneyland, and politics changed, sheriffs changed, things changed.
		Now, there's gangs.
		It's like everywhere else.
		But there was a day when that problem and a lot of others just didn't happen, and if they did, they didn't last long.
		What, from your perspective, could be done about gangs?
		I mean, if you had a free hand.
		And I'm not suggesting you would settle it as they used to here in Las Vegas.
		But how would you deal with it?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think the first thing is I really saw the trend.
		When I first went into a gang unit, it was 1977.
		And to my knowledge, it was the first federally funded gang unit in the country.
		And what we found was gangs predominantly then, it was a neighborhood territorial type of structure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Kids that maybe weren't great students or didn't have a great home life or they were criminals already, they grouped together and called themselves gangs for nothing more than protection and courage.
		And it became a neighborhood thing.
		But with the onset of crack cocaine, all the rules changed.
		And those rules became money was no object.
		Before in 1977, you would have gang members with single-barrel shotguns that were sought off, single-barrel 22s, Saturday night specials.
		By 1983, 84, 85, we're seeing gang members with AK-47s and 5,000 rounds, very expensive handguns, and they wouldn't keep them.
		They just drop them wherever they were.
		They had no problem leaving their weapons.
		They had more.
		We had a real money problem, and then there was no more neighborhood or territorial issue.
		This was making money, which started gang wars, which started people joining gangs for protection and then power.
		And it just toppled over itself.
		It was just incredible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the whole nature of gangs changed, and cocaine did that.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and at the same time, the federal government put a lot of pressure on organized crime, which did have control of a lot of the narcotics trafficking in the country and how their own enforcement of narcotics would be enforced, if you can understand what I mean, actual police force on criminality.
		Sure.
		So We had a lot of things going on at the same time that really didn't help out middle-class America a whole lot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then I guess it became, as you said, a battle for territory.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what they did control, they were selling in, and what they wanted to control, they fought for.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and, you know, the downside of that is the people that lived in all these communities are the losers.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		That's their battlefield.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So if you had a free hand and they said, tell us what to do about gangs, what approach would you take?
unidentified		How?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, if we're not talking about the constitutionality of it all, I would probably say you'd have to pass some type of a law about the collection of people at certain locations or times, the dress that they could wear.
		I think the first thing is where it all buds and starts is schools.
		I think all public schools should have a dress code, and that dress code should be one type of shirt, one type of pants, one type of skirt, one type of blouse.
		You eliminate the individuality there.
		It sounds very institutionalized, but that eliminates really a recruitment of gangs.
		It also breaks down their identity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there was almost an attempt to do a lot of that with the RICO laws, wasn't there?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, there was an attempt, but, you know, the same people that don't want their kids involved in gangs are screaming the loudest about, you know, we're not going to have our kids do this or that, and you can't do this or that.
		You know, you have to give in a little bit if you want to get something out.
		You know, we've already got a problem.
		We've got to do something to just argue back and forth and to do nothing and to try nothing.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You said that what was driving the gangs now was the narcotics.
		Crack, probably, mostly.
		But a lot of other narcotics.
		A lot of people say legalize narcotics.
		End the drug war.
		You put the gangs out of business.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you just put them right back in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How so?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, not only the gangs, but you just gave an injection into organized crime.
		I'll just give you an example.
		You have a dealer, and this dealer's, let's call him a mid-level.
		He deals in pure ounces of cocaine.
		Today, August 4th, we have the laws that we have right now, and it's illegal.
		And that ounce, let's just say for all intents and purposes, that pure ounce costs him $1,200.
		You legalize it, that pure ounce now becomes cheaper.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot cheaper.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Now he's dealing in pounds because now he can afford it.
		Now you have drugs that are controlled by the state.
		When they're controlled by the state, there's going to be a lax attitude towards the enforcement of even the illegal sale.
		And not only that, is you look at all the people that maybe are standing on the fence, and the only thing that keeps them from using narcotics is the law or the way society looks at them.
		A lot of those people are going to jump in, and it's legal now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, a lot of those Saturday night parties are going to turn into cocaine fests.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, it's interesting.
		You know, I've never been a narcotics user.
		I've never even smoked a cigarette.
		I've just never been interested in it.
		And the one thing that when you get in arguments with people, or discussions, I don't care however you cut it, you know, they say, well, alcohol.
		Well, you know, when I go in to a Mexican restaurant and have some chips and salsa, and I have a beer with lunch, I don't go into that place to get drunk.
		I have a beer, and I walk out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		When you use a narcotic, I haven't found one person yet that's told me that it really tastes good or they really love the smell or it really makes them feel nice and full.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		It's one of these things is they're after the high.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The high, sure.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		So you have a lot of people out there that are going to be doing things quite legally that they're probably not responsible enough to be doing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about pot?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you separate that at all?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't, because it's the same thing.
		Is somebody going to tell me they eat this stuff and it's really a good meal?
		They're doing it to get high, and I don't care how well they can operate themselves or a car or anything else.
		It's still detracting from productivity, responsibility, common sense.
		And we really don't need it.
		We've got enough with alcohol.
		It's really unfortunate, but if you want to compare alcohol to drugs and you say, well, why not legalize drugs?
		You eliminate the alcohol.
		You don't legalize the drugs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you might even be in favor of another prohibition on alcohol.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, we know that didn't work.
		And I'm not in favor of that.
		I'm just using it as an example that it's not going to work.
		It's the old thing where you have a group of people of 20 people that get a certain privilege in a corporation.
		And then 250 people see this privilege and go to management and say, we want this privilege because they have it.
		Well, they're going to take it away from the 20 before they give it to the 250.
		That's just common sense.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You were right.
		Prohibition didn't work.
		And so far as I can see right now, the drug war is not working.
		Why?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, you've got, first we're outnumbered.
		We're outmoneyed and we're outgunned.
		That's a big problem.
		There's so much money in drug trafficking.
		And now heroin's making a comeback.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it is.
unidentified		Why?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Why is it making a comeback?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, it's a good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We ignore that answer?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		We ignored it.
		I can remember in the 70s, we used to go down every day, we're working uniform.
		We grab a hype, a heroin addict, Take him to the station, see if he's under the influence, get information from him, write search warrants, do a dope pad or do a burglar's pad or something.
		Well, now they ignore heroin because they made it a misdemeanor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Heroin is a misdemeanor.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Possession, internal possession, in other words, usage where you're under the influence is a misdemeanor in Los Angeles.
unidentified		Wow.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		So, you know, that is the open door to narcotics enforcement is getting a user and having something to hold over his head.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I take it you would prefer the laws, for example, in my state.
		I'm in Nevada.
		Possession of marijuana is a felony.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, yes, and I'll tell you why, because it's a great enforcement tool.
		And by that I mean you bring somebody in with a small percentage of marijuana.
		You might be able to work that suspect to either give you a dealer of cocaine, some type of a robber, a burglar, a receiver of stolen property.
		You know, you could really work it into a lot of things.
		You bring somebody in where marijuana is a misdemeanor and mostly, almost always, a ticketable offense under a certain amount.
		You don't have a hook.
		You just break down a lot of the ability to police them to work the street.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of people criticize deals.
		You know, as you just said, you've got the leverage.
		You've got somebody, you've got a felony holding it over their head.
		They're going to give you information and they know they're going away for a while.
		But a lot of people criticize those deals.
		You get them in there and you literally cut them loose for giving you the next guy in the food chain.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes and no.
		Not necessarily, you know, I'll give you an example.
		If he's on probation or parole, he cannot do a deal with you.
		He gets booked.
		If he's not on probation or parole, you can't make any promises, so you can tell them, I'm going to book you because you're under the influence.
		I'll talk to the DA.
		But you give up one person or else I'm not going to say anything to the DA.
		And there's a lot of other ways to work a guy, too.
		You know, you take them off the street and they've got something that is a decision of yours, a decision that you don't have to book somebody.
		You make that decision and you make that decision because of getting a bigger fish.
		And it's not really a deal.
		That's work in the streets and it's networking.
		It's the same thing as a salesman does.
		You know, you're after the bigger fish because that's the one that's trickling down all the dope.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Hang tight, Mark.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		You've got a rest.
		I shall do the same, and stations will do whatever it is they do during this period of time.
		I'm not exactly sure about that.
		My guest is a retired detective, Mark Furman, and we've got a lot to talk about with him, including what it's like to be a cop.
		From the high desert, I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		Falling from the sheep and falling in love with Bell,
		toll free.
		West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's who we are.
		Good morning, everybody.
		Great to be here.
		Mark Furman is my guest.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Mark Furman, retired detective.
		His book, Murder in Brentwood, and we'll get around to that.
		I want to talk to you for a second about bad weather.
		You know, we've got bad weather actually here, not just coming, but here.
		Thankfully, here it dried up this day, but more on the way.
		When the weather gets bad, as you well know it's going to, you're going to want, among other things, you know, like water and food and the basics, flashlights, you're going to want information, and the Beijing Free Play Radio can sure deliver that.
		This was designed by a fellow named Trevor Bayless in Britain.
		It's manufactured in South Africa, and I must tell you, it is built like a tank.
		It's a full-size, portable radio with a crank on the side.
		Crank, it uses human power.
		It doesn't plug into the wall, does not use batteries.
		As a matter of fact, there's no place to even put batteries.
		You turn the crank for 30 seconds, and this radio plays at full room volume, AM, FM, or shortwave, for 30 minutes.
		So obviously, when the power goes out, you're not out of business if you have a Beijing.
		And a Beijing should be in every home in America, the way it's shaping up weatherwise.
		They're just $119.95.
		We've begun to call them the El Nino Radio.
		The number to call in the morning at 7.30 to get one of these for your very own is 1-800-522-8863.
		The C. Crane Company at 1-800-522-8863 and the other item.
		Too much weight.
		I'll tell you what, walk down the street, any street in America.
		Look at Americans.
		We eat too well.
		We eat too much of the wrong thing.
		And boy, there's a lot of overweight people out there.
		How would you like to lose an average of 8 to 10 pounds in the next month, guaranteed?
		Fiber will always help sweep fat out of your digestive tract, all fiber.
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		Hence, in this product, Kytoslim, you get this remarkable guarantee, and that is eat as you normally do.
		No stimulants, remember it's natural, and either you lose 8 to 10 pounds in the next month, or you get all your money back.
		All your money back.
		And by the way, when you order a 90-day supply of KytoSlim, you get an antioxidant moisturizing cream free of charge.
		If you don't lose the poundage, you get your money back and keep the cream.
		So they'd go broke very quickly if what they said wasn't true.
		Can't get it in stores, and your money comes back if it doesn't work.
		Call 1-800-557-4627.
		That's 1-800-557-4627.
		Back now to Idaho and Mark Furman.
		Welcome back.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, thanks, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How did you last 20 years, Mark?
unidentified		Carefully.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		You know, it's a good question, really.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it really is, because I spent a year dispatching Monterey Seaside as a police dispatcher, and I had a lot of friends who were cops, and the ones that last have to be a very different breed.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think you have to be somewhat of a not a chameleon, but you have to adapt.
		It's almost like it's a metamorphosis.
		Adapt with growing older in society getting sicker because you've seen more of it and you realize, one, you keep going out there and trying your hardest and doing good jobs and catching bad guys.
		And there's five more bad guys for every one that you bring in every year.
		It just keeps going up and up.
		And, you know, you see the real bad part of mankind, and you want to see the good part.
		So you're in really two extremes.
		Cops are great guys for parties.
		They're great guys for vacations.
		They're great guys to be around.
		But I think we're trying to see a whole lot of the good in just that two weeks to a month a year we have on vacation time to make up for all the things we see during the rest of the year.
		That takes its toll.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's been a change.
		When you first went in in 1975, and even earlier than that, you know, if a guy was going to, down on his luck or something, he was going to go knock over a 7-Eleven or a little store.
		I tell this story a lot because it's true.
		He'd walk in, stick a gun in the guy's face, say, give me your cash.
		The guy'd give him the cash, shaking, and he'd back out of the store, get in a getaway car, and take off.
		Today, it doesn't happen quite that way.
		He goes in with the gun, points it at the guy, demands the cash, gets the cash, and as an afterthought, puts a bullet in the guy's head.
		Life has cheapened.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		It has cheapened.
		And I'm not going to blame it on anything, but I'm going to tell you the one thing that I see.
		In 20 years on the police department, from 75 to 95, I think that I could safely say, to date, I saw the biggest change in law enforcement, at least in the city of Los Angeles.
		And a lot of things contributed to that, and I think one is the media.
		You know, the movie The Wild Bunch, I think that came out in about 75, 76, 77, was considered a very violent movie when it came out.
		In fact, in many theaters, the complete movie was not shown.
		There was an edited or a cut version.
		And just recently, in the last few years, do you get to see that in video?
		That movie could almost be shown on regular TV nowadays.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's true.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		And I think special effects, they're not special effects anymore.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		It's even better than a real murder.
unidentified		You mean from a dramatic point of view?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		From a dramatic point of view, you look at these, you know, I've seen a lot of people die, and I've seen a lot of people shot.
		And I'm going to tell you right now that it's more dramatic, more exciting, more visual on a good movie, even on a good TV series, than it really is in real life.
		And then they somewhat romanticize it in either one or two ways, either through the perspective of the suspect or the emotional side of law enforcement or the family.
		So you have a numbness that is put out into this country where we are used to murder.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think you're right.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		And then the other side of the coin is you have people watching this that really can't grasp the message.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		All they see is the violence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you came out of the academy, most cops, when they come out of the academy, they're ready to save the world.
		They figure they can make a really serious difference.
		And I think the crisis point comes for them when they realize that they can't change the whole world.
		And they're doing a job day to day to day.
		And that's when a lot of them decide, that's it, I'm out of here.
		How do you get through that point?
		Or did you originally come in assuming you couldn't save the world?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I think I came in with the thoughts I wanted to be a really good street policeman, but I didn't have the idea about saving the world.
		I'm not sure that the whole world deserved that.
		I think looking at it, I really took everything I did one by one.
		Of course, when you work gangs, you know, you're assigned certain groups of gangs.
		Of course, then it's more of a total thing.
		But just work in the street, every day you come to work, it's a new day.
		I took everything on an individual basis.
		And if I left that night having helped a victim, caught a suspect, or taken a guy off the street that would victimize somebody the next day, I had a very good feeling inside that I did a good day's work.
		I did good police work.
		It was above and beyond.
		And I went away thinking, well, tomorrow's another day.
		Let's try to duplicate that.
		I think the tough part comes when you realize that the guys working on the street trying to catch bad guys, the real catch-22 is when you realize that the number one thought on most police departments is the way they appear, the administration, the politics, silly programs, squeaky wheels.
		It's not catching the bad guys.
		It's how do we look?
		And that's a very demeaning and disheartening feeling to know that sometimes your captains and commanders are more political than they're more in tune to Chamber of Commerce luncheons than they are, you know, my guys really catching the guys out in the street they should be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here's a problem I had.
		When I was dispatching, we were in a 911 system, you know, and I had a whole bank of phone lines, and I had X number of patrol cars that I was keeping track of, and fire as well.
		And we had a great deal of responsibility in Monterey.
		There was a supervisor, but pretty much you took a call, you followed it through, you decided the response, you dispatched the response, and you carried it through to the end.
		Now, there were a lot of life and death kind of things that happened when I was there.
		And what I found was when it didn't work out right, I whipped myself.
		I would take it home with me.
		Every single night, and some nights more than others, I take it home with me, and I couldn't put it to rest when I got home.
		How'd you do that?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, the first few years, I worked in 77th Division my first couple years, which is in Dead Center in Watts.
		And the caliber of policemen there were the best in the city.
		They had the most crime.
		They also had the most crime reduction.
		So I learned from those policemen how to be a good policeman.
		And they had probably the best sense of humor that I have seen on the department since that day.
		And I don't mean making fun of people.
		I mean within us.
		They were a fun-loving group of guys.
		They were friends.
		They spent time off duty together.
		They went camping, their families.
		And the guys went.
		I mean, it was a very cohesive, productive division and a time.
		It's hard to say that you don't take it home, but I think I was so darn busy the first three or four or five years that I think it stayed inside of me, and I wasn't trying to get rid of it, but it was there.
		You just don't realize it.
		I think that's the real problem is you don't recognize there's a problem because you're too busy.
		And a lot of people go, too busy doing what?
		You only work eight, ten hours.
		Well, you always work overtime.
		And then if you work nights and you make a lot of arrests, that means every weekday you're in court.
		And your first three or four years in the job, you don't have weekends off.
		You're working weekends.
		That means you have maybe a Monday and Tuesday off, a Tuesday and Wednesday off.
		You're in court, and then you go home at night, but you're working the next night.
		So you, in essence, never have a day off.
		So that builds up, but you're young, so you feel you can handle it.
		You blow it off, the macho, you know, I can do anything.
		I'll get through it.
		I'm indestructible.
		And it does catch up.
		And I think most cops, I had it, a lot of cops have it.
		About seven, eight years, you just, the batteries start running down.
		And that's also about the time when your age, you know, you're not a kid anymore.
		And you start realizing things about your chances of not only getting hurt, but being killed.
		Just exactly what is going on around you.
		You're part of it, but you don't seem to be able to fill the ocean with sand no matter how much you shovel in there.
		So, you know, I think all those things combine to make a feeling where maybe you should have ended, maybe you should have taken it home and realized it right from the beginning and got rid of it little by little instead of just waiting until it kind of piles up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so one of the following happens usually at that point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Either you quit, you have a heart attack and die, you get divorced, or you commit suicide.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		See, I got divorced twice.
		I almost left the job.
		But, you know, I hung in there.
		I worked out my personal life.
		I realized a lot of things about myself.
		And the one thing that I realized about myself was I was a good cop.
		And that's what I know.
		That's what I enjoy.
		So I worked everything else around it.
		And you just try to do what you can.
		And yeah, some guys do leave.
		And I know quite a few of them that do.
		And I still have been in touch with a few that have, and they all regretted it.
		So I hung in there, and I had some of the greatest years of my life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mentioned sense of humor, and you're right.
		Cops really have a good sense of humor, albeit very perverted, but good.
		Inside, I remember I worked the same shift I'm on right now, graveyards.
		And on graveyards, you're stuck a lot of times with a lot of time, and maybe not on some nights a whole lot going on.
		I mean, it's either very quiet or you're pumping a lot of adrenaline more than you want to, one or the other.
		But when you've got a lot of time on your hands, a lot of strange things happen.
		I remember one cop stuffing some fireworks up into the back of the tailpipe of another, taping them on there.
		They get hot enough, they start going off.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		And now they don't do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, they don't do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I remember mace on the inside of motorcycle helmets.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Visors?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		That's a good one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All that kind of stuff.
		On and on and on and on.
		Did you see a lot of that in 20 years?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		I mean, a lot of fun.
		There's never a dull moment.
		You know, I'll give you a couple examples.
		When I was working gangs, we had three gang members that were down.
		They were shot and killed.
		They were shot in the back, right by a road.
		Of course, we got there, and I was in a suit, and I walked up the scene.
		Of course, the media, of course, they run up and they throw a minicam in my face.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		What happened here?
		Worst case of suicide I ever saw.
		You know, that's the kind of sense of humor that you've got to have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's protective, huh?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		Another one, I saw a friend of mine, a motor officer, that he was running radar on this road by the beach.
		And I passed him, and he didn't see.
		I had my girlfriend's car.
		And I saw him, so I said, no, I'm going to be late for work.
		No, I can't help it.
		So I turn around and I go about 80 miles an hour down the road.
		And I see him jump on the bike.
		And, God, he's just scrambling around, throwing his radar guns.
		And I just pull over.
		He comes up, and he looks at me, and he goes, oh, damn, why'd you do this to me?
		You know, I mean, this is what cops do to each other.
		And it's the same thing in the fire department.
		It's the same thing in bartenders.
		It's the same thing in insurance sales.
		And they all have their way, their little sense of humor that only they know.
unidentified		Yeah, and a lot of people criticize that, but it does go on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Again, I've got one for you.
		As a dispatcher, I used to drive back to Castroville every night from Monterey, and I'm pretty heavy-footed myself.
		Anyway, I got stopped, and I was being a nice guy.
		I just went through the routine.
		He wrote up the ticket, and I showed him my license, and all of a sudden he recognized my name and started all sorts of invective against me.
		And he said, are you out of your mind letting me write this ticket?
unidentified		Why did you do that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not doing that.
		Do you realize your boss determines my workload?
		Get out of here and don't ever do it again.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Been there.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're such a good career to end in such a difficult way for you.
		We'll get to that.
		But before we do, I want to ask you about the New York thing, the plunger business, the Haitian.
		Johnny Cochran, you know, has taken this one up.
		$53 million, I think, may be involved or more.
		I don't know.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Johnny who?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Jumped right on that one, I think.
		Anyway, big deal in New York.
		How do you react to that?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, first I'll say, of course, Johnny Cochran did it.
		He knows that Johnny Cochran will make this only a racial issue.
		He'll make it such a racial issue that they'll never want to go to trial.
		He throws his hat in the ring, throws a couple press conferences, and makes himself a cool $5 to $10 million because they're going to settle out of court.
		They'd never want this to go to trial.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wouldn't think so.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		So, I mean, I think that's well-placed theatrics on Johnny's part.
		And as far as the incident, I don't know collectively enough about it to really make a real intelligent judgment.
		From what I know, it is one of the most unbelievable things I've ever heard.
		And not unbelievable it didn't happen, just I'm almost in shock at the allegations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, yeah, without information, more information, it's hard to comment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But if it did happen as described, can you imagine that?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		How does that happen?
		I mean, that's a depravity with an individual.
		This doesn't have to do with being a policeman.
		Somebody, if this happened the way it was supposedly described, and all of those things are in place, I feel very bad that it did, and somebody was a policeman that did it, but he was not a policeman when he did it, if you know what I mean.
		This was something that was a deep-seated rage or something.
		I don't even know.
		I wish I could say something that would sound very intelligent and explain how somebody could go from an arrest to basically raping somebody with a plunger.
		I don't know.
		I can't imagine it, I guess, and I would hope it would not be, but it appears by all evidence that I've heard that it did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thin Blue Line was a really good title.
		It is a really thin line, and there really are bad cops, and there really is a thing among cops that, to a pretty good degree, they'll protect each other.
		There's absolutely no question about it.
		I mean, they'll cover for each other.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		It's a code of silence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's real.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		You know what's funny about it is?
		There is no such thing, and I'll tell you why.
		Because if there's a code of silence on the police department, then every mother that goes to court and testifies and gives her son an alibi, that's a code of silence.
		The neighbor that looks out the window and won't talk to the police, that's a code of silence, even though their relatives are the victims of those very suspects.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		You have a code of silence in corporations.
		They look at sexual harassment, Embezzlement.
		They watch employees stealing out of the till.
		Is this not the code of silence?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		We're talking about a human emotion that they don't want to get involved and drag themselves into somebody else's mud.
		That's what people call a code of silence.
		I think these cops, I think it's the 70th Precinct in the Bronx, isn't it?
unidentified		Right.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		You know, a lot of these guys are going, no matter what they know about this, they go, I don't want anything to do with this.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		I'm not going to comment one way or another.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		They're going to say one thing.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		I didn't arrest this guy.
unidentified		I didn't see anything.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		I didn't participate.
		I don't want anything to do with it.
		That's not the code of silence.
		It's everybody going, I don't want the heartache.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hear you.
		All right.
		Hold on.
		We're at the top of the hour.
		Rest, grab a cup of coffee, do whatever you want to do, and we'll be back.
		Mark Furman, retired.
		Detective Mark Furman is my guest.
		Not so retired, pretty active, actually.
		And we're talking about being a cop.
		And yes, we'll talk about, of course, the Simpson trial, his book, Murder and Brentwood.
		And he's got another one coming.
		We'll have to find out about that.
unidentified		I'm Mark Bell, and this is Coast to Coast A.M. Art
		Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
		My guest is Mark Furman.
		Retired Detective Mark Vurman.
		This should be very interesting.
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		I mean, things happen.
		Late at night, the eyelids begin to get heavy and you fall asleep and you kind of curse yourself in the morning because you miss something you wanted to hear.
		It doesn't have to be that way.
		There is extended record time, real talk.
		Now, what is that?
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		It is an AM FM radio and a very good one at that.
		But most importantly, it has built into it a quarter speed tape deck.
		Now, that's the important part.
		That means you can take the tape they supply with it, which is a very high quality, 110-minute tape, which would normally get, what, do the math, 55 minutes on each side.
		But because this recorder runs at quarter speed, instead it gets four hours on one side, just about four hours.
		Now, it's got all kinds of features you're going to want.
		Timed recordings, kind of like a VCR, you can set it.
		It has 10 memory presets each for AM and FM, built-in microphone, headphone jack, all of that.
		Operates on batteries or on 110, which means that you can plug it into the wall, record your favorite talk show, then unplug it, and take it to work or into your car or truck, and it operates on batteries.
		So, if you're into top radio, you've got to have one of these.
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		I use mine every single day.
		So will you.
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		All right, back now to my guest, retired detective Mark Furman, who's now in Idaho.
		Mark, back on the air again.
		I guess tell me, if you would, about your first book, Murder in Brentwood, an obvious book, one of many, many, many, many written about the subject.
		What made you decide to write it, and tell me about it?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, when I retired, I knew quite a bit of what happened and didn't happen in this case.
		And I kept it very close to the vest.
		I kept it to myself.
		Even my good friends, when this book finally came out, go, how did you not tell us?
		You know, my response was, you didn't need to know.
		But when the political climate, I can take so much heat, and I did.
		And I went to Idaho, and I'm working, and I'm retired, and I'm leaving everybody alone.
		I'm not saying a thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is everybody leaving you alone?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Yes, they are.
		And even then, I think, you know, of course you had reporters and you had people that came to town and they wanted things, but I wasn't saying anything to anybody.
		But when they indicted me for something that wasn't even a crime, that to me was the last straw.
		I did my part.
		I went away.
		I was out of sight.
		I was out of mind.
		I was not going on TV.
		I was not going on radio.
		I was doing nothing.
		And I had so many things, and some things I still haven't told.
		But when they did that, I said, that's it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What did they indict you for?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Perjury.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Perjury.
		That's right.
		And now, there was not long ago some sort of, I remember the press on it, some sort of pushing incident where you allegedly shoved some kind of reporter or something.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, in Spokane, that was in January of 1995 when I came to Sandpoint to buy a house.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What happened?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		You know, a reporter came up to me, and I was sitting in the airport, and he identified himself, and he said, you know, I'm a reporter from the Spokesman Review, and I'd like to ask you a few questions.
		And I was nice to him, and I said, well, you know, I'd rather not.
		And, you know, my wife's with me.
		And my wife is trying to signal me.
		He's got a tape recorder underneath his notepad.
		And I couldn't really, I think she whispered to me, but I can't hear very well out of my right ear, so I don't know if she was saying it or just motioning it.
		But, you know, there was nothing said that bothered me.
		I was trying to be nice.
		I gave him somewhat of an interview, basically saying, you know, what news is it me buying a house in Sandpoint?
		I mean, this is really silly.
		And he said, well, would you mind if we took a picture?
		And I said, yes, I would.
		Well, you know, the old saying, if you don't want an answer, don't ask.
unidentified		Right.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		And if you're not going to respect the answer, why did you ask?
		So this photographer, lo and behold, we went up to the waiting area for our plane.
		And the photographer was on the ramp standing in front of us taking pictures.
		And I was very, very protective over my family.
		I'm in the public eye, not by choice, but just of the very nature of what happened.
		Sure.
		And, you know, she, I told her to leave, and he just kept clicking photos.
		And I walked by and says, okay, you got your photos.
		Goodbye.
		Well, he proceeded.
		He continually did this.
		Every place I stepped, he was there.
		The long and the short of it, I says, you know, just get out of my way.
		And I went to move him out of my way.
		That's all I did, is to put my arm on his shoulder and move him to the side, and he collapsed.
		I mean, he just went down like he was shot.
		It was an obvious setup.
		My wife saw another camera off to the side, somebody else photoing.
		I mean, it was obvious.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		An old expression, I think, whiplash equals quick cash.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		And there you go.
		But, you know, no matter what it was, I think it shows the pathetic nature sometimes of the media to get an unstory.
		And if they have an unstory, they're going to get a story regardless.
		They're not going to waste their time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I found the same thing.
		Exactly the same thing.
		When there was a suicide at Rancho Santa Fe, the media blamed me.
		And it was hell on wheels for a long time around here.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		They didn't have a story with the suicide.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they wanted to connect me to it.
		And once they found out, for a long time it was, we're going to tell our story this way.
		This is the way we've decided to tell it.
		And no matter how many facts I would give them otherwise, they wouldn't print the facts.
		They would print what was cool.
		You know, here were 39 people who probably committed suicide because Art Bell had a show about some companion object way back when, in November, with regard to Comet Hail Bob.
		And so I had the press everywhere.
		I mean, they were just relentless.
		And now, of course, we've had this Princess Die thing.
		Now, I guess you can relate a little bit to being chased by the press.
		It's pretty awful, isn't it?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		That was the least intrusive incident of three years, if you can believe that.
		Oh, I can believe it.
		You know, what's funny is, as soon as I wrote the book, and getting back to that just for a second, and I'll be able to tell you a little bit, as soon as I went on Diane Sawyer, October, let's see, October 3rd, we taped the first prime time, and it aired, I believe, the 7th.
		After I did the prime time, the whole media's attitude changed because I had broken my silence.
		And now the exclusive was out the window.
		Diane Sawyer owned it.
		So now we're all playing catch-up.
		Now we have to show Mark some respect or he won't say anything to us because now we know he will speak.
		So it's kind of odd.
		And I don't know if I'm putting the thought process in their head, but the interesting part is there is a complete evolution from that point until the next prime time until people started reading the book, and then they realized that they were duped by a lot of people in this case.
		And, you know, you said there was a lot of books written, and I'll agree.
		And unfortunately, I had to read all of them.
		But I will tell you one thing about them.
		There's three kinds of authors.
		There's the authors that sat in the courtroom and really know nothing about the inner workings of the case or listen to only people's view of the case.
		You had the people that had to defend a man that was clearly guilty of a double homicide, That had to make up any fantasy they could, no matter what publishers wanted.
		They gave them a fantasy and a defense.
		They had to write those books.
		You had a few people in the prosecution that had to cover some bases.
		They had to cover some mistakes.
		They had to make some excuses, knowing full well my book was coming out.
		My book came out.
		I had no reason to change one thing that happened in this case because I didn't do anything wrong in the investigation.
		Anything that I did wrong or people believed I did wrong or I felt bad for, I was very upfront.
		And that's a very disarming book for most of these people.
		You can't beat me up anymore on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
		The very same thing happened with me.
		Finally, when the facts got out, it all began to change.
		There was a turning point, thankfully, when the truth actually got out.
		And I'm sure that was true with you, too.
		When this whole thing started, the very first moment you entered this case, did you know what you were into?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I really didn't.
		You know, I've been around a lot of celebrities.
		I used to bodyguard celebrities for years.
		I mean, back to 1978.
		I've taught a lot of celebrities and famous people and rich people, you know, how to shoot.
		That was one of the things I did.
		I used to be on the pistol team in LAPD, and I was an instructor at the academy for a period when we were transitioning to 9mm.
		So I've had contact with celebrities, and not only on the department, but off.
		And when we went there, that wasn't a big shock for me, and that wasn't a big hook for me.
		And it really didn't make any difference to what I did or what I thought.
		Only after I was at the prelim and the city and the world started making a big deal about a professional testimony I gave, something I'd been doing for 20 years, or by then it was 18 years.
		Nobody seemed to give any attention before that, and all of a sudden, the same thing I'd been doing for 18 years was now something special.
		But when I realized that I did well, I embarrassed Professor Ullman on his motion to suppress evidence.
		I, in fact, put a focus on myself.
		They realized who made decisions, who put things together, who found what, who interviewed who, and that was me.
		And I knew probably the day after, two days after that previum, that I was done no matter what they had to do to me.
		They were going to start a scandal with me regardless.
		I had to go.
		And that was the number one thing I had to go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you know that there was, did you remember then that there was history that they could get you with?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		You mean the screenplay?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		I didn't even think about that.
		You know, a lot of people go, how could you not think about this?
		Well, first thing is it was mischaracterized in so much as the time frame.
		Almost the whole tape, all the tapes they were talking about were done in 85, 86.
		The only thing that was done after that point was luncheon meetings with people interested in the project, a producer that works with a major studios, interested parties, those type of people.
		So you're talking about 85 and 86, and we're doing a fictional screenplay.
		Why should I be worried about this?
		It's not something I would hold guilt for.
		It's not like a true-life experience or something that actually occurred.
		It's not like I'm trying to cover up or hide for it.
		I was very upfront when people said, you know, are you working on something or are you doing something?
		I said, yeah, we're trying to make a screenplay, you know, and it's kind of fun.
		But there was never anything that I held a repressed guilt for, so I didn't even think about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Usually at the beginning of something like this, the prosecuting attorney will sit you down and say, look, is there anything, anything in your background?
		They knew this case was going to go racial.
		They had to know.
		Is there anything in your background that's going to come out that we need to know about?
		There must have been a moment like that.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		You know, I never know there was never a moment like that.
		I think after, you know, I was attacked, that question was asked.
		You know, is there anything else?
		And I go, I can't think of anything.
		So, you know, but when the tapes came out, probably maybe, you know, when I heard that they were looking for them and the tapes were for sale and all these things, it was the first time I ever even gave them a thought.
		So I think that's something that people should really think about for a second.
		If you do something very innocent 10 years prior that because of circumstance you could never even imagine and being edited and carefully played in the media and in the courtroom in a certain way, it can seem very damaging.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		So, you know, I never thought about that.
		If I would have, of course I would have told the prosecutors, but I never even gave it a thought.
		I mean, that never crossed my mind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was that the defense attorney's crowning moment?
		In other words, I guess I'm asking you in a way, what happened to you?
		Is that what lost the case?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely not.
		That case was lost in the first 12 hours.
		I just didn't know it.
		You know, I go into this whole thing from the beginning to the end in my book, and I don't lay out one thing in there I cannot absolutely 100% prove.
		Phil Van Adder routed that case from the first time that he stood in that street and took the case from Ron Phillips, Brad Roberts, and myself, and we handed him my notes.
		That was the kiss of death right there.
		I mean, how much evidence did he leave?
		He didn't read my notes.
		He left a bloody fingerprint on the rear gate.
		He left an open and empty knife box in Simpson's bathroom.
		He left sweats in the washing machine.
		I mean, there was evidence he left everywhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I remember the motion to suppress regarding the initial entry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was there really enough evidence to go jumping over?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
		I'll give it to you the other way.
		We come from a double homicide scene.
		We have a female we think is Nicole Brown Simpson.
		I was the only one that wouldn't absolutely say it was because it's unimportant if it absolutely is.
		We have a double homicide.
		We cannot explain who this male is here either.
		So if you can't explain who he is, you really can't put much together with the crime scene.
		He could have been a suspect.
		We do not know.
		Sure.
		So what we have is we have two dead people.
		We have a blood trail leading away from the bodies.
		We have a bloody fingerprint on the gate.
		It's not a dog that left it there.
		It's a human.
		We have blood drops that stop in the driveway, a logical place, or excuse me, the alleyway, a logical place for a vehicle.
		We go up to the Simpson mansion.
		I think quite improperly, I would not have done it.
		Langer Van Adder were now in charge.
		They said, can you get us up there?
		I checked the address with a patrol officer.
		I said, yeah, I can get you up there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why would you not have done it?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Because it's unnecessary.
		I really don't care if an ex-husband ever gets notified.
		He may be a suspect, but as far as notifying him and breaking up my crime scene investigation at that early stage, I don't care.
		Especially a celebrity.
		Where's he going to go?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess I remember the question was asked, was he at that moment a suspect?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, not in my mind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In Van Adders?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		You know, he didn't relay it to me.
		Of course, we don't know if they wanted to go up there just to say that they're the ones that notified him that his ex-wife was dead.
		I found it very odd that the Brown family learns that Nicole's dead on the phone, yet O.J. Simpson, an ex-husband, is going to be notified in person.
		This is clearly because he was a celebrity and he was wealthy.
		And that's what I don't agree with.
		But nonetheless, I was asked to take him up there.
		I did.
		I make observations on a public street of what I believe is blood on the Bronco.
		I make observations that this is, in fact, O.J. Simpson's Bronco.
		I see other things in the back, a shovel, a piece of plastic.
		Now, you connect these few things here.
		You have a double homicide with blood drops leading the way.
		Obviously, somebody left.
		They got into a vehicle.
		Here we have a vehicle that is parked somewhat askew.
		It has a drop of blood on the driver's side by the door handle, where a person with a left hand would open the door.
		The print on the knob was on the left side of the gate.
		Most probably a left-handed operation.
		You have the drop stopping.
		That means they got into a car.
		You combine that with connecting that car to OJ Simpson.
		Nobody answers the door.
		Lights are on upstairs.
		Lights are on downstairs.
		Nobody answers the door.
		Now, at this time, you don't have to be a suspect to make an entry.
		I mean, you don't have to suspect that there's a suspect there.
		You have an obligation for public safety to make sure nothing's wrong with someone inside.
		Do we have a situation where O.J. Simpson was actually fending off a suspect and he killed the mail and he got away and went home to call 911 and never made it that far?
		Now, how bad do you think we would have been scrutinized once we saw this evidence?
		We saw this connection to two crime scenes.
		In other words, what became another crime scene, but connection between two residences, and he is related to the possible victim, even by ex-marriage.
		Can you see what would have happened if he would have been dead in there or any person would have been injured or dead in there?
		And we were standing right there and we walked away?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it would have been derelict not to go in.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to tell you, there would have been no attorney in the world.
		I mean, the city of Los Angeles would have settled for $50 million because there is ample probable cause.
		In fact, it's overwhelming that you have to do something.
		You do have to make contact and establish there's nothing wrong.
unidentified		And that's exactly why we entered, and that's exactly what we attempted to do.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold it right there.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		Relax, grab some more coffee, and we'll be right back.
		My guest is retired Detective Mark Fuhrman.
		I'm Mark Bellin.
unidentified		This is Coast to Coast A.M. Call
		Art Bell.
		Toll free.
		West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We are the ones.
		Top of the morning, everybody, wherever you are.
		We will begin taking calls here in a moment.
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		All right, back now to Detective Mark Furman in Idaho.
		Detective, welcome back.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I'd kind of like to let everybody begin to ask questions of you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure you've done this a lot of times before, have you not?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just two things.
		TV coverage in courtrooms.
		Good idea, bad idea?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Bad idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bad idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it seems like a lot of judges have taken that cue since that trial because there hasn't been a lot of TV coverage of big, high-profile trials.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		You know what bothers me is the judges are taking the same profile here as we are about the tragedy that happened to Frances Diana and the paparazzi's.
		We had to have somebody's death to make somebody realize that they were a nuisance.
		And not a nuisance, by and large, every photographer, but the people that actually make themselves obtrusive and aggressive and almost causing assaults with their cameras, basically.
		The judges, are they trying to say that they saw something good out of letting somebody play to a camera, let defense attorneys give speeches, let people in the courtroom basically become famous?
		It's exactly what they wanted.
		And if people say, well, we have a right to know what goes on in our courtrooms, then go to your respective county, city, or state courtroom and walk in.
		They're open for you.
		Go in and see it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was a particularly hard public lesson, too.
		And it dilapidated a lot of faith in the justice system to watch all that unfold.
		What about the judge, Judge Ito?
		Even though the cameras were there, he allowed a lot of that speech fine to go on.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		He didn't have control of that courtroom from the first day.
		You know, I've been in a lot of courtrooms, and I'm not a judge, and I'm not an attorney, but I'll tell you one thing.
		I've never seen two things.
		I've never seen attorneys held in contempt to court, especially prosecutors.
		It was a badge of honor in this case.
		And I've never seen a judge let everybody in the courtroom rule his court except for him.
		I think the clerk had a better grasp on what was going on in that room than the judge did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about the prosecution?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did they make any fatal mistakes, in your opinion?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I think they did, but, you know, we're talking in hindsight.
		I'd say, you know, if I'm taken back there, I think realizing that the judge was making some horrendous errors in his motions and what he allowed in the courtroom, I think there should have been.
		And I conveyed this then, so I won't say this as hindsight.
		I actually said it then.
		The motion to ask me racial questions in this case was totally irrelevant.
		And once the judge allowed that questioning, he overruled himself, by the way.
		On a Friday, he told the defense that if they cannot show that there was any evidence tampering or planning of evidence by Monday, they aren't going to be able to question.
		Then he overruled himself by Monday.
		So it's interesting that I went to Marcia Clark once the ruling was in that they could, and I said, appeal it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You remember we were talking earlier about Code of Silence?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you had a partner, and I think I'm pulling this out of an old Hill Street.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		You're being a no-winner here, I can tell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, out of an old Hill Street Blues piece.
		If you had a partner and your partner ran down a kind of a dark alley after a suspect.
		Suspect turned around.
		Your partner thought he had a gun.
		I thought he saw a gun.
		Pulled and fired and killed the suspect.
		And upon close examination, found out, uh-oh, no gun.
		So he throws one down.
		Now, would your inclination at that point be to cover for him or to go to internal affairs?
		Well, I think it's a hard question, I know.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, neither one.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		First thing is, that type of shooting occurs in America quite often.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		And it doesn't happen because somebody's out there trying to kill people.
		It happens because you have two people that are very scared.
		You have two people that are in a life and death situation.
		And everything's made at hundredths of a second, the decision.
		Now, I think in that situation, I'd probably say, pick that up.
		That is the stupidest thing in the world.
		You know, put it away.
		Yeah, I think I'd probably have to tell somebody what happened, but I think I'd probably be telling to my partner.
		I'd go, hey, look, you did nothing wrong.
		You went on instinct.
		This is what you felt.
		Tell the shooting team what you felt, what was going on in your mind.
		You don't need to play these stupid games.
		And, you know, I've never seen anybody with a throwdown gun.
		If I did, no, I'm not going along with that.
		Then I just become part and parcel of a homicide because the only logical explanation why somebody would do that is they had the preconceived or the predetermined attitude that they were going to shoot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the reason I asked that is because if you knew that there had been a horrible double murder committed, but there probably wasn't going to be, you know, you can see as a case develops investigating, that there probably wasn't going to be enough absolute direct evidence to convict, you wouldn't throw down a glove.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I mean, that is so silly.
		And I'll tell you why everybody that knows me knows how silly that is.
		When I do a case, I do 110%.
		I do everything I can.
		I do all the, cross all the T's, dot all the I's.
		I do all the good police work.
		I'm imaginative.
		You know, I figure out different ways to get evidence, to whatever.
		But once I do all that and you have all this evidence and you write it down, it goes to the prosecutor.
		And I don't feel any responsibility if the prosecution or a jury can't convict because I did my job.
		Now, if I didn't do my job, then I would feel some responsibility.
		But you can't produce evidence.
		And I'll tell you a reason why.
		Because there's always a way that something doesn't fit if it didn't get there in a natural progression of somebody's actions.
		And everybody goes, oh, could have planted the glove.
		Anybody that says I could plant the glove or would plant the glove or any way or any framework at that time that I could is nothing more than ignorant beyond belief.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let's try a few phone calls and see what we get here.
		First time caller line.
		Good morning.
		You're on the air with Mark Furman.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Dallas, Texas.
		All right.
		I've got two quick questions.
		One for you, Art.
		I've been listening to you for over six months now, and I've never heard you comment either way on this case.
		And my comment and my question for you, Mark, is I do believe that there was a bloody fingerprint, but if you and your partner were the only one to have spotted it, why didn't one of you hang around and make sure that a sample was taken or a photograph was taken of this fingerprint if that is if having a fingerprint is just like signing his signature to the crime?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, the first thing is, is if Brad Roberts and I, he was my partner, if we would have kept the case, we would have done exactly that.
		But the case was no longer ours, and we were sent different places.
		Brad was sent to the police station initially to interview the people that had found the Akita dog, Nicole's dog.
		So he was away from the scene, and I was instructed to take Lang and Van Adro up to the Rockingham estate.
		Once I was up there, I was instructed to go back down at about 7.15, 7 o'clock, something like that, to see if the glove at Bundy was similar to the glove at Rockingham.
		I did that, and I returned to Rockingham, and I never returned to Bundy that day.
		So I understand your question, but I wrote it down in very clear block printing, very legibly, on notes that I saw being handed to Phil Van Ader.
		There was no reason, absolutely none, that there was any possibility that would not be collected or observed.
unidentified		I've seen them on different shows, and they've just dismissed that fingerprint as a pile of bunk.
		Well, I believe you.
		I don't believe you did anything wrong, but they are just blaming everything on you.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, Phil Van Eder and Tom Lang, I read their book.
		Their book is basically covering up every mistake they made.
		Tom Lang wasn't at Rockingham, but he handled the Bundy scene.
		He should at least inspect the path of the suspect and inspect that gate.
		You know, we know that he basically told the criminalist to go back there and collect it.
		He didn't observe it.
		You should observe it.
		You should direct every photograph and direct every collection of every piece of evidence so you can testify to it and you make sure it's done properly.
		Tom Lang and Phil Van Adder are in damage control.
		I took a polygraph at the end of my media tour on March 17th of this year.
		I answered every question and then some on anything, any possible way, any possible, anything, planning the globe, fingerprint, Ito's wife, everything.
		I was truthful in all of it.
		Now, there's even one better.
		Larry Schiller, who wrote American Tragedy, is doing a paperback version.
		He asked me for some comments about the civil trial.
		We talked.
		We Had a nice conversation several times.
		And just of recent date, Larry Schiller in his paperback has revealed that during the civil trial, he got a hold of the Browns' attorney, Mr. Kelly, and he interviewed him about the rear gate.
		Mr. Kelly said, well, we heard, you know, Mr. Fuhrman say these things about the locksmith change the lock the next day, which he did.
		The Brown family wanted those locks changed.
		So on June 14th, those locks were changed, and they interviewed the locksmith.
		The locksmith said, yeah, there was a bloody fingerprint on there, but I thought the police already analyzed it and photographed, so I just threw it away.
		They couldn't introduce that into the civil trial because it would have routed Lang and Van Adder completely.
		They didn't do it, and they went with what they had.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why did this case get taken away from you, and what did you feel when it did?
		I mean, you were there.
		You were developing the case in the beginning, and then get snapped away.
		Why?
		Why?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, this case logistically, this had anything to do with ability.
		Lang and Van Adder were simply on call in a rotation-type basis.
		They were not hand-picked by robbery-homicide.
		But robbery-homicide doesn't handle cases on a geographic type of assignment.
		In other words, in West L.A., if there's any murder, we handle it.
		No matter how many there are, we have to handle it.
		Robbery homicide can pick and choose.
		Not only that, they have about 25 homicide detectives that can work one case if need be.
		The logistics of this case, just on the onset, if this was Nicole Brown Simpson, even before O.J. Simpson was a suspect, would be astronomical media-wise.
		Just for that fact alone, robbery homicide took the case on the recommendation of the West Bureau chief, Chief Frankel.
		Had nothing to do with ability.
		As soon as, as far as feelings that I had, of course I wanted to keep the case.
		You know, it would have been a very interesting case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		But once I realized that this is probably Nicole Brown Simpson, I know this is going to be taken away.
		It's just a matter of when.
		So you do your job well up to a point.
		Ron Phillips, my supervisor, offered robbery, homicide, our services until they had all their detectives in place.
		And Brad Roberts and I made observations and found evidence up until late that day.
		I think it's unusual that Detective Roberts and myself found all the evidence.
unidentified		Lang and Van Adder found none.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you have any particular emotions when you heard that Van Adder and Lang were getting the case?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, did you have any knowledge about Van Ader and Lang from all the previous years that worried you when you heard they were getting the case?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		No, I didn't even know them.
		And I think there's another little thing about not knowing a detective.
		They've been on that long, and they're working on Robbery Homicide.
		I knew quite a few people at Robbery Homicide, but their name had never come up.
		And my name was well known down there.
		I had been on 2020, I think, almost two years before, because I was one of the people that really understood and was very successful at investigating carjackings.
		So my reputation, robbery, homicide, was already well thought of, but their reputation didn't precede them, which in hindsight is kind of odd.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is totally off-subject, but you said you used to train people how to shoot, how to use a gun.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Practically, I presume.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, you start with the basics and then you work up to what their function for wanting to learn is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is your attitude about this sort of new thing?
		I have it in my state, where you go take a course and you can carry a gun, carry permits for civilians.
		How do you feel about that?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I'm not sure.
		I think that depends on the individual.
		I think, you know, when I taught somebody how to shoot, no matter how rich they are or how competent or how much experience they had in life, I said, you have to understand one thing.
		If you pull this gun out, you better be ready to use it.
		That's the first thing.
		And the second thing is you better be ready to give up everything you own because quite probably you're going to be sued.
		And if you pull the trigger and you're wrong on who you shoot, or that bullet goes through that person and hits an innocent bystander, you're not a law enforcement officer.
		Your intent can be transferred, and you're liable for every injury you occur.
		And God help you if you shoot a juvenile.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there really that much difference between a civilian carrying a gun, responsibility-wise, and a cop who's carrying a gun?
		Oh, absolutely.
		In what way?
		I was told by my instructor that there really wasn't a lot of difference.
		Is he a cop?
		Had been a cop.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Why isn't he a cop now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		What he said was that...
		It is, yeah, but the basic rules apply.
		It's a good shooter, it's a bad shoot.
		And the same rules apply.
		In what way do they not?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll give you a great example.
		A two-year policeman and an 18-year policeman.
		Who do you think has the most experience, can sense the most things, has the ability to see a situation deteriorating very fast?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Or the other thing is, who has the experience to know he must react now or he will be shot?
		And this is a situation the civilians have absolutely no possibility of encountering unless they're a victim, maybe one time, which is one of the precipitating Reasons that people want to carry a gun.
		They've been victimized.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Now, they don't get the training.
		I don't care how much training you get as a civilian.
		You're not going to get the training that a cop gets in one month working a car.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's true.
		And it's also not ongoing.
		In other words, you take the course and you probably forget most of what you've learned in the first few months or year.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		You don't think like a cop.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, that's right.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		You don't walk into a liquor store off duty and make sure you look in before you walk in the door.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		You just walk in the door.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But if there is a shooting, pretty much the same rules apply, don't they?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		A policeman, if he goes into, if he sees on or off duty, if he sees a felony in progress and there's a life-threatening situation, and he shoots a suspect with a gun that's holding a store owner at bay, and that bullet goes through that suspect and three other civilians, his intent can't be transferred.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		In other words, he is not liable for those people because he acted in good faith in the scope of his duties because once he takes action, even off duty, he becomes on duty.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The city would not be liable civilly?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe civilly, but we're talking criminally.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Criminally.
		All right.
		No criminal liability then.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		The city will still protect the policeman.
		He will, if there's, of course, anybody can sue anybody, but the city will take care.
		He'll provide an attorney for the officer to represent him in any action.
		They'll pay for everything.
		You know, it's not something he has to worry about.
		Now, take a civilian, same situation.
		You better hope that the guy you're shooting is a suspect.
		You know, when you go in and everybody's got civilian clothes on and somebody's got a gun, it isn't always as it seems.
		What if a policeman goes in there, store owner's being held at gunpoint, he, in turn, prones the suspect on the ground, and the only thing you see is a guy in plain clothes pointing a gun down at the floor.
		Well, the cop's got the suspect proned down at the floor, and you shoot the cop.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep, that's true.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		These are things that you just don't key on as a civilian because you're encountering this maybe one time in your life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's absolutely true.
		Mark, hold on.
		We're at the top of the hour.
		We'll be right back.
		Lots and lots of people want to talk to you from the high desert.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		Coast to Coast AM.
		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First time callers can reach Arkbell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Beth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Retired Detective Mark Furman is my guest, and we're going to try to concentrate more on the telephones.
		We've done two hours of very interesting talk radio.
		A lot of it about being a cop, and not so much about the O.J. Simpson trial, but I suspect we're going to talk a lot about that and inquire about his next book.
unidentified		It's stuck.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So all of that coming up.
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		The number to call is 1-800-359-4255.
		1-800-359-4255.
		There is a new crop circle photograph on my website.
		You might want to take a look at that.
		It's very, very interesting.
		And oh, don't forget, the rogue market.
		If you can get to my website by hook or crook, poor trace of words, perhaps, borrow somebody's computer.
		How about that?
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		Go to the rogue Market and buy some Art Bell stock.
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		And if you get in now, you're going to make a lot of money because over the next week, it's going to go through the roof.
		Actually, it's in that process right now.
		So if you go to the rogue market, of course, they're not real dollars, but when you make a lot of them, you get prizes like t-shirts, that kind of thing.
		So hop over to the rogue market and buy some Art Bell stock.
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		Matter of fact, in the last eight weeks, they've added 16 fantastic upgrades, and more are on the way.
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		Ask me how they do it, but the Lewis Brothers have got the whole package.
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	All right, back now to Mark Furman.
	Mark, I'm going to try to concentrate harder on the phones here.
	But I do have a couple of questions.
	One comes from by Fax in Houston, Texas.
	Charlie wants to know, and so do I actually, about what you think with regard to the whole Prince's Die thing.
	In other words, here they've got a Mercedes, reportedly an armored car, going 120 miles an hour in a tunnel, trying, allegedly, to escape these pomparazzi folk.
	And I haven't figured it out.
	Unless one of these guys on a motorcycle managed to get in front of this Mercedes and pop a flashbulb in the face, I assume the side windows are probably tinted.
	I can't imagine any other way that a motorcycle, first of all, it's hard to imagine it doing 120 miles an hour, or a whole pack of them doing 120 miles an hour.
	Secondly, it's hard to imagine them forcing a big old heavy Mercedes like that off the road, and they wanted to get your take on that.
	What do you think?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think we've got a whole, there's a whole bunch of ingredients involved here.
		First, they make motorcycles that could do over 160, and they're a lot cheaper than going down and buying a five-year-old truck.
		And there's a lot of European and Japanese motorcycles that do that, so that's not an issue.
		I don't think this is that they were afraid of being photographed.
		I think they did not want the photographers to follow them to their destination.
		I think that's the problem.
		I don't think that they felt that they were going to be photographed in the car.
		And then we, you know, if what is true from what I hear in the news, we had a driver that did not think he was going to be working any farther, that he was under the influence of alcohol quite significantly, which driving and judgment go out the window.
		And, you know, the funny thing is, is, you know, the old thing is somebody starts running, so somebody starts chasing them.
		Or, you know, it's kind of silly, but if they're chasing you, the first impulse is to run away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Not stop.
		So I think there's a whole combination of things that kind of went into an international tragedy.
		I think we can say that, you know, I've heard all these arguments about, you know, celebrities want this and, you know, their whole bread and butter is creating this frenzy about them to get them in the media and keep them in the media.
		I would say that's true.
		But I think there's just a little bit of respect for privacy.
		It's one thing if they're going out and announcing, we are going to be here, I'll make a press conference, I'll be available for questions.
		There's a big difference between that and a private romantic dinner with somebody that you're dating.
		I think the same thing is as, you know, over the years we've seen a Princess Dye's photograph on vacation with her children.
		Very fuzzy photographs taken with hundreds of millimeter lenses.
		They're hiding in the bushes in the middle of the Bahamas or in Monte Carlo.
		Aren't we going just a little bit too far there?
		Are we creating a paranoia about private moments?
		And when you really want to make them private, you have to go to the extremes of trying to have a completely armored car, tinted windows, a bodyguard driver, and you want to evade these people that continually probe and prod at every movement you make.
		I don't know.
		It's a big mess, and I don't think anybody's going to solve it by law, and nobody's going to solve it by guilt.
		It happened, and I hope some people realize that they can probably get what they want if they just are a little more patient and a little more respectable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		So it just is a tragedy.
		I mean, we've got a drunk driver.
		The level at which they declare you legally drunk in Britain is a little different than it is here.
		How much, I think it was 0.175 or something like that.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		0.23 from what I read in the paper.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		23?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		That's what I read in the paper.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By our standards here, what does that mean?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Four times.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Four times?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, 0.06 in California is called presumptive limits of under the influence of alcohol.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Now, that blood alcohol level combined with your tests that a traffic expert would give you, in other words, on your abilities at driving that vehicle, that could be presumptive limits of driving under the influence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've heard a lot of people say that they think probably most of the people in that car might have been tanked, and that's the reason they didn't notice the driver was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At that level of alcohol in the blood, should they not have noticed, had they been fully sober and aware, that he was not?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, it's great to say, but I think we can all put ourselves having a good time at a dinner and, you know, having a bottle of wine, and they're being responsible, not driving, because the driver that is normally there for them and is normally very effective and proficient and responsible, because he isn't, I'm not sure that's a responsibility to notice those things.
		I'm sure they just called the Maitre D and said, get the manager, have him get him, get him in a car.
		We want to take him.
		I mean, these are rich people.
		They're not people that go chase this guy down by themselves and say, here's the keys to the car.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, just a tragedy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Wild part.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		It is, and we can't stop tragedies.
		I mean, look what we do.
		Every time there's a tragedy, we try to make a new law.
		You know, Flight 800, now we're making laws about luggage.
		Princess Diana dies.
		You know, now we're going to try to make laws about photography.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't think that's not going to work here.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		None of it's going to work.
		The justice system is fine.
		Photographers are going to do what they do.
		And if somebody wants to do something to an aircraft, they're going to do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a fact.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Mark Furman.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		How are you doing today, sir?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Twin Falls, Idaho.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, not far from Mark.
unidentified		No, it's not.
		We're down in the southeastern end, and he's way up in the northern end.
		And to qualify myself, I was born and raised in North Florida, South Georgia.
		I don't think Mr. Furman is a racist by any means.
		And I would have one question for him on that subject.
		It has come to my attention in the very distant past that there was a black man that was charged with a crime.
		And this is the reason I'm saying he's not a racist.
		But Mr. Fuhrman was one of the men that went out of his way.
		I can't remember the name.
		But Mr. Fuhrman went out of his way to prove that this black man was innocent.
		And I think that in itself stands to say that Mr. Furman is not a racist, regardless if he decided to live up at Standpoint.
		I don't care.
		The fact that he went out of his way to help a black man.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that brings up a really good topic, Mark.
unidentified		Might as well cover this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Again, I told you I dispatched in Monterey County, and Seaside was my particular duty.
		And Seaside was a rough town.
		It's a rough town.
		It's got a high percentage black population.
		There's a lot of crime there, really a lot of crime.
		And it's a really thin blue line, because if you're out there on the street and you're seeing black crime all the time, pretty soon you begin to associate black with crime.
		Now, how do you prevent yourself from going over the line and your natural disgust with the amount of crime going on and who's committing it becoming racism?
		Because that does happen to a lot of cops.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, first, the caller's memory was very well.
		The name of that suspect was Eric Harris, and he was a black man, and the victim of the homicide was a white man.
		And he was shot eight times.
		And, you know, everything pointed to Eric Harris.
		And I just had this gut feeling after hours of interrogation that he knew, but he wasn't the shooter.
		And I went out and I set out to find out who it was.
		And I put the word on the street.
		And I got an informant to tell me who the real shooter was.
		I made arrangements to keep it confidential.
		The informant says, I won't testify.
		They witnessed the shooting.
		I went to great lengths to conceal their identity.
		Even had them go up freight elevators at the police station for a polygraph.
		They passed the polygraph.
		I let Eric Harris go.
		I knew who the suspect was.
		The case is still open because by that time, the evidence during the search warrant of the true suspect, we could not find the evidence.
		He would not break.
		I know the man.
		He was a suspect in a homicide that I turned another homicide detective onto a year and a half before this.
		So this is a good case, and the prosecution knew about this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what I was about to say.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		All right, so Mr. Clark would not present this.
unidentified		not?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		You know, I did not realize it then, but...
		Well, she could have.
		It's called a rebuttal case.
		It's rehabilitating a witness.
		And I had so many people that are civilians and policemen, black, Hispanic, female, doesn't matter what, ex-partners that were willing to testify on my behalf, but yet they did not want to do it because they did not want to take a position of trying to disprove a negative.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but once that had been laid out the way it was, they had an obligation to go after that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They had to go after that.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		I think you're right.
		I think the obligation started with Marcia Clark trying to apologize for having to prosecute O.J. Simpson in her opening statements.
		I think at that point, her mindset, whether it was obvious or not, it surely is now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mark Furman.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess you're not.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mark Furman.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yeah, good morning, Art.
unidentified		My name is Jack, and I'm on the Oregon coast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		And yeah, good evening, Mark Furman.
		I didn't ever talk to you for any reason, but since I'm able to, yeah, I thought that the Britton Wood Slasher's trial was pretty pathetic because I saw probably, I know I saw more than the jury did, but I looked at the, in fact, I saw all of your testimony, and I didn't see anything really wrong in your testimony at all.
		The one thing that did bug me, well, at least I did call, was the fact that they asked you a question having to do with your position.
		This is, again, racist, to do with the fact that you felt that blacks were, well, they implied low life anyway, and that did you ever, at any time, ever refer to them as niggers?
		and I think they came up with some kind of recording in court.
		Is that a fact?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		A fictional screenplay.
unidentified		Is that a fact?
		When I was copyrighted, and it exists today.
		Because I was wondering, because everything you said sounded pretty straight to me, and I couldn't believe that you could just turn it around like that.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know what's interesting is do you see how effective the defense and the media's careful picking and choosing of the future?
unidentified		Well, I think the whole trial, Mark, was pathetic.
		And the thing is, Ito, he wasn't the judge, obviously.
		And you know what?
		And hopefully they do not ever do that one again.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm with you on that.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		And I think Judge Ito had his own agenda.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think that was?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it's interesting that his wife and I had a superior or a supervisor-subordinate relationship that's probably the most negative I've ever had on the department.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		And she seems to have forgotten that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Should he have recused himself?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		Just at the mere hint, he should have recused himself.
		If he didn't, then that lingers, and he puts his wife in a terrible position.
		And I think we can only say one thing.
		How can she forget a circumstance in a relationship that I could bring a dozen policemen into that courtroom and they'll tell you exactly what happened like it was yesterday?
		It was so obvious for over a year in that division.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You said there were a lot of things, or at least some things, that even to this day you have not talked about.
		I have an obligation to ask.
		would you like to talk about me?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, there are some things that...
		Van Ader is not what he truly wants to be.
		He's even worse than the performance he put on TV when he was trying to defend himself against not allegations, but the facts that I presented in my book.
		And I wrote three more chapters in an epilogue for the paperback that's coming out in December, and I lay out not only the second search warrant where Marsha Clark was knee-deep in deception, but Phil Van Ader.
		And I think we really have to look at this exactly what it is.
		And it appears that there was a collective, conscious effort to keep my partner Brad Roberts out of this case for some of the most obvious reasons once these three chapters are read.
		And as I said before, Roberts and I found all the evidence at Rockingham, and we found the crucial evidence at Bundy.
		We didn't need any help on this, and I think that had to be kind of ignored.
		If they brought Roberts in, somebody's, even the newspaper is bound to catch on and say, what did we need Van Eder and Lang for?
		Furman and Roberts already found all this stuff.
		So I don't know if it was ego.
		I don't know if it was testimony.
		I try to bring out as much in questions as I can.
		There's still more that at a point that when I can prove it, I will do so.
		But just like my book, I will not write anything down that I cannot prove.
		Unlike Langen Van Ader's book and Marcia Clark's book.
		I read Marcia Clark's book, and I'll give you an example.
		Marcia Clark's book gives Brad Roberts one paragraph.
		Brad Roberts, she says, all Brad Roberts could bring to the case is to say Mark Furman was a stand-up guy.
		That, just all by itself, is about the biggest lie I've ever heard.
		Brad Roberts, let's just see what Brad Roberts could bring the case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's, we're at a breakpoint here, so take care, and we'll be right back to you, Mark.
		Mark Furman, and coming up, his take on his own partner and what his partner could have brought to the case.
		I'm Mart Bell, and this is Coast to Coast,
unidentified		A.M. Call Art
		Bell, pull three, west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255, 1-800-618-8255, East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033, 1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ah, yes, I've been giving you a sneak preview of this superb new Cusco album for several weeks.
		Well, now it's here.
		Apuramac 3, Nature, Spirit, and Pride.
		This cut is called Ghost Dance.
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		You can get this new Cusco album, Apuramac 3, for just $15.98 on CD, $9.98 for cassette.
		Call now 1-800-562-8283.
		And if you're one of the first 25 callers to place an order tonight, your copy will be autographed by Cusco's own Michael Holmes or the limited edition box set with all three CDs in Cusco's Apuramac series, along with an autographed poster for just $39.95.
		This beautiful box set is not available in stores.
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		Or Cusco's new Apuramac 3 album on CD for just $15.98 or $9.98 on cassette plus shipping and handling.
		Call now for this limited time offer.
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		Well, there has to be a best at everything, doesn't there?
		In my way of thinking, Cusco is best at what they do.
		And the ATS 909 by Zanjine is clearly the best portable radio in the world right now.
		That is a non-trivial statement.
		It's the best portable radio in the world.
		In any category you care to mention, sensitivity, selectivity, coverage, resolution in sideband, individual upper and lower sideband filtering, audio quality, size, so it travels easily, a modern, it's got a really big, big jump, as a matter of fact, on all of what used to be the best radios.
		It's got, for example, I'll just give you one example of one button you can press that will automatically, when you go into a new city, load all of the AM FM stations into memories for you.
		Pretty handy, huh?
		In every single category of measurement, this is the best radio right now in the world.
		The price is $269.95.
		And by the way, lesser radios, and here I won't mention any names, went for $4,500, and they didn't get anywhere near this.
		This really is a bargain.
		It's the Sanjee ATS 909.
		If you want one on the way toward you, call them in the morning at 1-800-522-8863.
		That's 1-800-522-8863.
		See Crane Company.
		All right, Mark, you're back on the air again.
		And let me ask you this.
		It's from Bob in Bakersfield, longtime listener.
		And I watched every minute of that trial on television by Mark, and so did he, apparently.
		He says, I'm not sure if you can or will ask this question of Mark, but here it is.
		When he was sitting on the witness stand and F. Lee Bailey asked him if you've ever referred to a black person as a nigger, why didn't he just say, yes, who hasn't?
		Everyone sometime in their life probably has.
		Things would have turned out very differently.
		Do you think, you know, hindsight and all that, that you would have answered differently?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, on one hand, first, it's probably the most uncomfortable position that anybody's going to be put short of being on trial themselves.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		And it's very easy to look backwards when you're not on the spot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		But we have to look, we're not talking about a citizen.
		We're talking about one of the first detectives on the scene.
		That's the first thing.
		The second thing, one of the detectives that found most of the crucial evidence.
		That's the second thing.
		And the mere question is an indictment.
		The answer is almost totally irrelevant.
		So just forget my answer.
		Let's just say my tongue was cut out just seconds before the question was completed.
		The jury is looking at an LAPD detective first that has asked the question.
		Now, if you answer it one way, you're a liar.
		And if you answer it the other way, you're a liar.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or a racist.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, either way, you're a liar.
		They don't believe you if you say no.
		If you say yes, they only think it's worse.
		You need a predominantly, almost an entirely black jury.
		To put that question before that jury in a totally irrelevant issue, in this case, probably the most irrelevant issue of any case involving a black defendant in the history of this country, to put that there and Edo allowing that to be put there, he completely routed that case.
		It was totally unnecessary.
		It had nothing to do with the case.
		I tried to litigate Bailey's question, but I never have called anybody that to their face.
		Have I used it?
unidentified		Yes.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Would I wish that I would have go back there and answer that differently?
unidentified		I can say sure.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		But it's only for my personal reasons.
		It has nothing to do with the case.
		That jury we know now Was predisposed no matter what questions were asked in that courtroom.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I guess they were.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mark Furman.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi, good evening.
		This is Matt from Madison, Wisconsin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Matt.
unidentified		Hi.
		Mark, I'm going to give you a welcome reprieve from the previous questions.
		This has nothing to do with the Simpsons case whatsoever.
		This is purely about your opinion as a police officer.
		I've had a friend who has been through highways in South Dakota several times.
		He has a VW van, and it's decked out with Grateful Dead stickers, things like that.
		He's 30 years old and probably hasn't smoked any pot since he was in college.
		And he's been pulled over twice in South Dakota by a Canine Highway Patrol unit.
		And the last time he went through there on a way to a concert, the same police officer for the third time pulled around on the median, followed him for about five miles, drove past him, smiled, and waved.
		My question is, do you think that the war on drugs has taken such a terrible turn against the casual user, especially about marijuana?
		I mean, obviously in L.A., you have seen much greater problems in marijuana users.
		not to put you on the spot personally but as far as a general societal issue do you really think that marijuana use is that great of a danger to society and I've heard all the stepping stone issues so I'd like to really hear Okay, well, eliminate the steps.
		Well, not eliminate the stepping stone.
		I mean, I started off with alcohol.
		I was a senior in high school, had a few drinks, and it led me.
		I wouldn't say it led me, but I ended up smoking marijuana.
		And I've used LSD, cocaine, a couple times.
		I've used a lot of things.
		But I'm 23 now, and if I am going to use drugs, I will smoke marijuana occasionally.
		And I think I've learned from my experiences to know that the other things are not what they are to be.
		It might be useful to experience those things.
		And I'm sure many people around Arts Generation, things like that, are probably of the same idea.
		But do you think that the war against marijuana in particular, mandatory minimums, especially imposing five-year sentences for someone who is growing ten plants for what they think is medical use or for personal use?
		Do you think the penalties are excessive?
		And the comments you've made so far tonight have been very intelligent and have been quite a striking difference from what the media portrayed you as.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's because this is a different kind of media.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Radio is a better place to be.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, radio is the heartbeat of America.
		You've got the time and you have somebody not constantly interrupting you with a commercial or switching the camera or cutting your mic off.
		So it's your tricks on TV.
		Well, I'll answer this question.
		You know, what happened to your friend is kind of what happens in an area where the trickle-down of crime gets down to that level.
		So that's one issue that we really can't address without knowing a lot more ingredients.
		As far as the casual user, it's just like the guy that goes out and has a couple beers with his buddies and the burgers and watches a game.
		You know, everybody that gets in a car that kills somebody under the influence, which is 25,000 people a year, causes him heartache and he does nothing wrong.
		So that's the issue with the casual user.
		You could have a whole bunch of people that are casual users that don't drive, don't affect anybody, don't cause anybody any heartache.
		The problem is, is you have people that take an inch, then they take a foot, then they take a mile.
		In other words, six plants for personal use.
		Somebody says, okay, that's okay.
		The next guy is 12 plants.
		I just use twice as much, but he's selling half of it to pay for his habit.
		You know, it just goes, it's a trickle-down effect.
		So they have to establish, it's like personal possession.
		How much is a ticket and how much are you possessing for sale?
		Well, it can be broken down fairly easily if you know anything about narcotics.
		You know, how much heroin you can use yourself, how much cocaine, how much marijuana, how much of anything you can use yourself, especially when you're carrying it in your pocket.
		So I have a problem with focusing too much on users of marijuana, but it's like we said before, sometimes it's a way to get information.
		If you're talking just about just a working person that all he does is use marijuana for his personal use, he's going to take the heat for all the people.
		Well, one of the people he's going to take the heat for is people that are selling it because he's not selling it just to him.
		He's selling it to a dozen or two dozen or a hundred people.
		So unfortunately, that's just the way it's going to have to be.
		And you just have to use judgment on the street as a policeman.
		Who to enforce and who's a waste of time?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, he asked, this is a good question about mandatory minimums.
		Now, you get some guy, pop for pot, who goes in for five years.
		And the net effect, it seems, of mandatory minimums like this with respect to drugs has been to perhaps kick somebody out the other end who committed some sort of violent crime and probably ought not to be back out there.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		You can't prove that.
		And I think mandatory minimums, correct me if I'm wrong, I've never seen a mandatory minimum that was ever mandatory in a courtroom in California.
		But I think the feds have those type of mandatory minimums, do they not?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they do.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, federal law has been totally ineffective at making Penalties or laws that work in states because every state and every city has its unique problems.
		So I would say that the federal law trying to enforce state violations, I think that's a problem.
		And I don't know how people in your audience understand how the feds and the state laws really interact.
		Usually, the state, if it isn't covered by the state, you look at the feds and see if they'll file the case for you because they have something that would either be more stringent of a penalty or they could handle the case where there really isn't a violation, a clear-cut or serious violation in your state laws.
		So they work off each other back and forth.
		It's like the RICO Act.
		It's good example.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so where the feds can move or the feds can move in some cases where you just can't at all.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'll give you an example.
		Carjacking case.
		You have a problem getting a carjacker because in California for a long time it's simply a robbery.
		Now a robbery can start out at a year.
		But if you cross state lines with that interstate transportation of stolen property, then you've got a federal crime.
		You bet.
		So it's used both ways.
		And I think that's the problem with, I think it is kind of ridiculous, somebody in possession of a bag of marijuana to do five years in prison when you're getting guys in robberies doing two.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you did a traffic stop and you found somebody in possession of a small amount, typically would you take the time to bust them for that, write them a ticket, or what?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, that was, you know, putting me in that position was a long time ago when I first came on the department, it was still a felony.
		There's a no choice.
		Misdemeanor, you have a choice.
		I think it would depend on who I'm dealing with.
		Am I dealing with some kids?
		Am I dealing with working people?
		Am I dealing with a good citizen?
		Or am I dealing with a convict that I'll do anything to be able to take him out of circulation, to be able to see what he's up to, why he's there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you make those kind of judgments in the street.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
		I've let so many people go for so many things because they make a mistake.
		I've given people rides home that have obviously been drinking because they're, you know, just a hardworking guy that stop for one too many beers after work and, you know, say, lock up your car, go into the restaurant.
		You know, drink coffee for a couple hours.
		Give them a ride home if it's close.
		You make those calls because it comes back to you.
		That guy might see a cop someday getting the hell kicked out of him and help him because somebody helped him at one time.
		So it works both ways.
		On the other hand, you see some guy I know is on parole that's had three beers and he's driving a car and it might be a busy night.
		Well, I've got a parolee here that's on parole for robbery.
		And I have an opportunity to take him to the station, shake him down, see what's going on, see what he's doing, call his parole officer, get a parole search on the car, parole search on his apartment.
		I'm going to do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The King case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're taking the King case.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Rodney King?
unidentified		Yeah.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, the first thing I'll say is Rodney King dictated that he was going to be stopped.
		Nobody was staked on the freeway waiting to stop Rodney King.
		The second thing I'll say is when he was stopped, he had two passengers.
		A lot of people forget this.
		Two passengers that did not fight, did not resist, were handcuffed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Not a foul word.
		They were placed in the police car, not a scratch.
		Mr. King decided that he was going to fight and continue to fight.
		And he did.
		Now, if the officers went too far at certain points, that's not up to me to decide because I haven't seen the entire tape and I don't have all the evidence, but I'll tell you one thing.
		There was no racism involved there.
		They did not dictate that stop.
		Mr. King dictated that stop, and he could have got in the car just like his two friends, and nothing would have occurred.
		And I think of Reese and I think he's in custody again for beating up his wife, has he not?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, he's been in and out of trouble ever since.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		What a shock.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		And he was on parole when he was stopped for a robbery.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think if it had been a white business person in a suit, it would have ended the same way, given the same sort of behavior?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I do.
		And I'll tell you one reason why is a lot of those policemen were very young on the job.
		Stacey Kuhn was the only real veteran there, and he was trying to control a lot of things going on there.
		He's not supposed to get hands-on unless it really came down to a life or death situation.
		But you had a lot of policemen there that weren't too large either.
		And Rodney King was pretty big.
		So tying up with this guy in a fist fight or choking him out, which a lot of people forget.
		They took that away from Los Angeles Police Department several years before.
		One person getting a bar arm control on his neck would have rendered him unconscious in about 10, 15 seconds, and that situation would have been done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If today was 20 years ago, Mark, and you were going to go into the academy in today's atmosphere, would it be a different choice?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		You mean start in 1997?
unidentified		Yeah.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		I wouldn't do it.
		Law enforcement has changed quite possibly forever.
		And it's unfortunate because people better realize something.
		It's still 1880 out there.
		We just have cars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That really is true.
		Welch of the Rockies.
		You're on there with Mark Furman.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi.
		Good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Sacramento on KEST.
		Okay.
		But I used to live in Pacific Grove.
		And Seaside's changed a little, and everybody's moved to Marina.
		Just so you might want to know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's been a while.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Okay, Mr. Furman, it's nice to speak with you.
		I'm sorry about all that trial stuff.
		It certainly didn't make you look very good.
		But you seem to be a really honest gentleman, very knowledgeable.
		And I want to ask you something about, I don't know if it was a rumor or if I heard correctly, did you ever see a UFO?
		Did I ever see it?
		Yeah, or have you seen any since you've been up there?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm usually either on radio or asleep at night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Couldn't afford a lot of time looking up anyway.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		You know, I'll tell you, it's a very interesting subject.
		Roswell has always been a very interesting subject for me, you know, Roswell in 1947.
		I'll tell you, Roswell is probably the best example of a case where a couple of good detectives should be on that because there's been a lot of things that nobody seems to want to explain and they can explain them.
		And I find it odd that they don't want to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mark, did you see the Air Force News conference trying to the latest explanation for Roswell, you know, the dummies and all the stuff they drove?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, that stand-up comedy act they had?
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		Yeah.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you know, and that shows you how threatened they are by the heightened interest of this.
		And I'll give you my slant on this.
		If they were working with experimental aircraft, okay, that's 1947.
		We came out with a stealth fighter.
		We only worked on that for about eight years, and we came out with that.
		What could they possibly have in 1947 they were working on that they don't want to disclose after they disclose the stealth fighter?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, beats me.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it's silly.
		The only thing that they want, maybe do not want to disclose is something that they can't explain, and they don't want anybody investigating it.
		Whatever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Either they can't explain it because it's theirs or they won't explain it because it's out of their control.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		I think the latter is probably the truth.
		I mean, what couldn't they explain that they were working on under the effort of national security or a peacetime machine to stop war or an aircraft or a spacecraft?
		You know, how egotistical can we be?
		We're putting people on the moon.
		We put spacecraft on Venus and Mars.
		We think there might be life on Mars, microscopic as it is, but still life.
		And yet we're so egotistical, we're the only people in a finite universe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You really, really raise a good point.
		There have been a lot of ufologists, basically amateur investigators, compared to somebody with a career as a detective.
		It would be an interesting, interesting assignment, wouldn't it?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it'd be great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'd love it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To go after it as a detective, a trainer.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
		whichever the way the chips fall, too.
		You report not what you want, but you report what really occurred.
		And I think the one thing that people don't understand in this is there's people that have nothing to gain and actually are very afraid at even talking.
		Until Lieutenant Marcellus was getting ready to die, is the only, he was the intelligence officer that was first assigned to go out and look at this wreckage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you mean Major Marcel?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'm sorry, Major.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Major.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, we're at the top of the hour here.
		Are you good to go?
		Are you awake still?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I could go another half hour.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's do it then.
		Stay right there and relax, and we will continue.
		My guest is retired Detective Mark Furman.
unidentified		Thank you.
		Thank you.
		See that girl, watch that scene, big and sandy queen.
		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you would like to get the attention of your dancing queen, might I suggest absolutely fresh flowers.
		This is a flower farm in Southern California.
		Only thing they do is grow miniature carnations.
		That's all they do.
		They do one thing, and they do it absolutely correctly.
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		That's a fact.
		That's so many flowers that it is astounding to the person in receipt, your dancing queen.
		They come in a large triangular box, just packed in there, all these miniature carnations, along with a card from you, very personalized, handwritten, your message of love and caring, whatever you want to say, and your name at the bottom, handwritten, quite a service.
		Delivered, $42.95.
		You called today, they deliver tomorrow by FedEx.
		Boom, like that.
		It's 1-800-562-6438.
		1-800-562-6438.
		Now, wireless comm.
		If you don't have credit or you have bad credit, your chances of getting a cellular phone are slim and zero.
		They'll laugh you, well, they may not laugh if they're polite, but inside they'll be laughing.
		You know, people without good credit or no credit, which amounts to about the same thing, can't get cellular phones because they've been ripped off too much.
		It's just a fact.
		So here comes a new industry.
		It's called prepaid cellular.
		It's kind of like a prepaid phone card.
		They load so much, you pay cash, they load so much use into a card, and away you go in business.
		For you, it is an investment opportunity.
		It requires $8,400 minimum investment, and they will ask you questions to determine that you can invest that kind of money.
		But then they will send you a free investment kit and video cassette outlines the whole thing.
		Remember, it's an investment, not a guarantee.
		You consider the idea, as you would any investment, and decide for yourself.
		The material is absolutely free.
		The number to call is 1-800-444-1050.
		That's 1-800-444-1050.
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		You've got nothing to lose but the fact.
		All right, Mark, you're back on the air.
		Question.
		In the police force, particularly LAPD, and you can probably comment now that you're gone, I was in the Air Force, and it was widely understood and known in the Air Force that if somebody didn't like you and they wanted to come after you, they would keep coming until they got you.
		Is that particularly true in the LAPD as well?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, I think any big organization, you know, you have people that you work for that protect you because you're serving a function that they need, and then you have the people that are really against that, or they're actually on a polar opposite.
		And I'll give you an example.
		You have people that work the streets and people that are the detectives that promote up the ranks, usually up to about captain.
		Those people are good supervisors and leaders, and they protect policemen and detectives that are doing good police work.
		And I don't mean protect them from them committing crimes or personnel complaints.
		What they do is they protect them in so much as allowing them to do their job and what they're good at.
		In other words, keep them in positions and keep them supplied with equipment and opportunities to do their job well.
		You have other administrators that call that a cowboy.
		That's right.
		And they don't like that, and I truly believe they don't like that because they were never any good at it, and that's why they became commanders and chiefs because they went up the supervision ladder because they really couldn't cut it as street cops.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Administrative.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Administrative.
		I can't even imagine why you'd want to be a policeman and be an administrator.
		They just don't go hand in hand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you have a reputation as a cowboy?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
		I think I was, you know, I'm not going to say I was pretty much by the book, but still I used a lot of imagination, you know, in surveillances and interrogation and different ways to catch people and, you know, analyze crime trends.
		And I went out there, and if somebody was going to mix it up, I never backed away.
		So that isn't a macho thing.
		That's what we're supposed to do.
		It's not even what we're supposed to do.
		We can't do anything else.
		You know, you just don't have policemen backing away from a situation where there's shooting or a fight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you spend a lot of time sitting there getting chewed out?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		No, quite the opposite.
		I had 55 commendations.
		I had supervisors that asked me to work for them.
		I had units that wanted me to work for them.
		But then again, these are people that wanted police work done, and they really didn't care about some silly program that some political administrator came up with that would make him look good at a Chamber of Commerce luncheon.
unidentified		You know what I mean?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know exactly what you mean, yeah.
		All right.
		With limited time, let's go to line one.
		You're on the air with Mark Furman.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		Where are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		Michael, I'm calling you from Portland, Oregon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Portland, all right.
unidentified		Yes.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Nice town.
unidentified		I have some questions for you, Mr. Fuhrman.
		First of all, there are a couple of organizations.
		One is called Men Against Women, and another is called White Anglo-Saxon Police.
		These are supremacist organizations.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		They're what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		White supremacist organizations.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		And where do they exist?
unidentified		My information is that there are law enforcement officers that are members of these organizations.
		And did you once comment regarding WASP, which is the acronym for White Anglo-Saxon police.
		Did you once comment, I am the grand dragon, I am the hood?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was white Anglo-Saxon Protestant, sir.
unidentified		Well, no, that's the normal acronym, white Anglo-Saxon Protestant.
		But this organization is also called WASP.
		Okay, and that's White Anglo-Saxon Police.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And your question was: Did he comment what?
unidentified		Did you once comment that you, regarding your possible alleged association with this group, I am the Graham Dragon, I am the hood?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
unidentified		You did?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
		That was in the screenplay tape for a fictional screenplay, and I'll bet you never guess what the name of the screenplay is.
		It's copyrighted.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is women?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Men against women.
unidentified		What a shock.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Where did most of your information come from, sir?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		The media?
unidentified		Pardon me?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Where did most of your information come from, though?
unidentified		My information comes from an excellent, excellent, exhaustive researcher by the name of Dave Emery, who interviewed three authors of books about you, about the case.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		I'd love to know what authors, because there's been no author of any book that even.
unidentified		All right, hold on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold on, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let Mark finish.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		You know what's interesting is a lot has been written about me, and nobody's asked me.
		In fact, nobody's even asked one of my partners.
		In fact, nobody's even asked one of my supervisors.
		In fact, if one of these authors would be, let's see, probably Jeffrey Toobin, who never talked to me.
unidentified		I'm sorry.
unidentified		It's hard to hear you here.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, the point is, you have no information.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely none.
unidentified		I'm merely asking you this question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But they're quoting something that he said in the screenplay.
unidentified		All right, all right.
		Let me see.
		Did you ever plant drugs and or money on people, primarily people of color?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Sir, everything you're talking about is in a fictional screenplay research tape to give a woman stuff to write about that had no idea what went on in the TV police episodes, let alone the real street.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, we'll leave it there.
		Obviously, it came from the screenplay.
		You wanted to say something earlier about your partner, and you said there's a lot that could be said about your partner that never came out.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you look at Brad Roberts.
		Brad Roberts is with me, sees a bloody finger.
		Brad Roberts goes to Rockingham with me after I return to Bundy momentarily to inspect the one glove there.
		He goes back.
		He finds I explain everything that had occurred at Rockingham.
		He looks into the Bronco, and now because the sun had come up, he finds blood in the Bronco.
		We call Phil Van Adder over to the Bronco.
		He sees it, gets very excited.
		Brad Roberts finds the blood trail.
		I'm finding the blood trail.
		Brad Roberts and I find the blood in the foyer.
		Brad Roberts and I find the knife box upstairs by the bathtub.
		Brad Roberts and I see the black socks at the end of the bed at about 7.30, quarter to 8 in the morning.
		Brad finds the black sweats in the washing machine.
		Brad Roberts finds a blood transfer on the maid's half-bath, his feet from the washing machine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if all of that is true, how can a passionate, and she certainly seemed passionate, Marsha Clark not want to put Brad Roberts up there to back up every word you said?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think I'll answer it with some questions.
		Did Phil Van Adder find the blood inside the Bronco?
		I'm going to tell you right now, I'm standing there when the blood's found.
		He did not.
		If he found it before that, okay, that's fine.
		Kind of sounds like two independent observations and conclusions by two experienced veteran detectives is even more powerful than one, is it not?
		But the problem is, is once Brad Roberts and I have all this evidence that we found, they have no more thunder.
		Brad Roberts also talked to O.J. Simpson before anybody did.
		And he made statements about what's going on here.
		And Brad finally says, well, there's a blood trail.
		It waves from Bundy right up here.
		He starts hyperventilating and sweating and saying, oh, man, oh, man, oh, man, just chanting it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		I had Brad Roberts immediately after O.J. Simpson left with Phil Van Ader.
		I said, Brad, go in and write down everything he said right now.
		That is in the homicide book.
		That is in the homicide book that the defense has also.
		And don't think that everything that I said, the defense doesn't know.
		They knew it before my book came out.
		That's what made them so fearful.
		If the prosecution would have played the case down the line, the way things happen, instead of taking detours around things that they didn't want to deal with because of Van Adder's mistakes, this would have went down, and then at least we would have presented the case and done the investigation, unquestionably, guilt.
		And whatever the jury did then, that's their business.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you're making a case that all this was done to, in essence, cover Van Ader's mistakes.
unidentified		Well, I'll tell you this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wasn't it way beyond that in importance?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, we have to look who sets the wheels in motion.
		I'm going to give you a little hint on the paperback version of my book.
		In the second search warrant, on June 28th, we go back to search for what?
		Black sweats?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A knife?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Evidence of a knife?
unidentified		Yeah.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Any blood?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Didn't we already find the black sweats?
unidentified		Yep.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Didn't we already find an open and empty knife box?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Empty, yes.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		In the search warrant, it says we're going to go back and look for a knife in places that could be concealed.
		Well, let me tell you something.
		You couldn't have hit a toothpick any place in that place that we didn't look.
		I was under the house.
		I was on the roof.
		We turned over and took pictures off the wall.
		We did everything.
		I'll tell you right now, we went back in that second search warrant, and there were things that were already found.
		Black sweats were already found.
		That was not in the search warrant.
		And there's something very interesting in the search warrant.
		Van Adder describes a blood trail leading up the driveway, but he never mentions that he sees blood in the Bronco.
		Seeing blood in the Bronco connects that Bronco to that blood trail.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then why no mention?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that's the big question.
		One would be that you didn't see it there, so you're the affiant in the search warrant.
		Why would he testify that he did?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can understand, to some degree, some protection.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But once they saw things falling apart, to continue to protect Van Ader, as you're suggesting, when you're obviously blowing, the case is going up in smoke, at some point Van Ader is not that important.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you have to look at another thing here, too.
		You've got to see where my testimony stopped and why.
		The prosecution, their direct testimony on me stopped after my discovery of the glove and my interview with Kato Kalen.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		Why?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		I could establish the black socks were there at 7.30, quarter to 8, 8 o'clock.
		The black socks that came into question that they weren't there at that time.
		The Swiss Army knife box.
		And it's clear why I couldn't testify after that point.
		They didn't take the knife box.
		They didn't take the black sweats.
		They didn't recover the blood transfer from the maid's half bath.
		Let's just think with that blood transfer on the maid's light switch cover in the half bath next to the laundry room.
		That blood was O.J. Simpson's.
		What's he doing in that maid's half bath?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		He's very close to the washing machine.
		Did he put his sweats in there?
		Sees himself bleeding.
		Goes into the maid's half bath, turns on the light switch with his bleeding finger.
		The light switch is on the left side.
		He would have used his left hand to do that.
unidentified		Right.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Goes in there, looks in the mirror.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Was there blood in the sink?
unidentified		Probably.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Did he get something to stop the bleeding?
unidentified		Probably.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		But we could have put him in a maid's half bath next to those sweats.
		Absolutely damning.
		And the knife box.
		People say, but you didn't have the knife.
		It's more powerful.
		Just days before the murder, he's back in Connecticut getting samples of Swiss Army knives.
		He makes a statement to a driver, a limo driver, that he displays one of the bigger knives and says, you could hurt somebody with this.
		You could even kill somebody.
		That driver takes a polygraph just days before the second search warrant is written.
		None of this is in the second search warrant.
		He passes the polygraph.
		Now look what you have.
		You have this statement combined with him absolutely obtaining, possessing, and displaying and making this statement.
		Now you have, on the very day his wife is murdered, a knife box that came from that corporation in Connecticut that that driver saw missing.
		That's more powerful than finding the knife on the road with no fingerprints in the blood of both victims.
		Because Mr. Simpson, where's the knife that goes in the box?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How are you doing living with all this now?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'm fine.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		I didn't do anything wrong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
		But I mean, it must be, it's a terribly frustrating end to a career knowing what you know.
		It's terribly frustrating.
		I mean, you must roll this over a million times, or did all that training of all those 20 years of being able to put something behind you, is that with you now and aiding you now?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I'll never be able to put this behind me, but, you know, what I feel in my heart, and the same thing as Brad Roberts and Ron Phillips feels, you know, we did everything right that day.
		We gave them everything on a silver platter.
		What they did with it, they threw it in the garbage.
		We did nothing wrong.
		And, you know, I wonder how Phil Van Eder feels about the mistakes he made.
		You know, I'm not somebody to beat somebody to death with something, and I think I would have been kinder and a little more objective with him and maybe a little more forgiving if he just would have admitted some mistakes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you ever talked to them about it?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		No, they won't.
		They won't debate with me.
		They won't go on the same TV show.
		But, you know, it's not surprising.
		They tried to attack me when I came out with the book, and every TV show they went on, they had a different story because every time they came up with something, I had something that I was holding back that I destroyed them with.
		And they had to change the story again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, Los Angeles has been listening carefully to this, I'm sure, this morning.
		We're on KBC down there.
		If Phil Van Adder would like to come on and debate you at some point in the future.
unidentified		Sure.
unidentified		You're up for it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're up for it, huh?
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		We're almost out of time.
		Wild Hardline, you're on the air.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Hello?
		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air with Mark Furman.
unidentified		Gee, Art Bell.
		I didn't realize a person had to hold so long to get on your show.
		How are you doing, Mark Furman?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Good out of here.
unidentified		Okay.
		He's popular.
		Hey, you know, I've been listening to most of your interview, and along with a lot of other people, I always thought O.J. Simpson was guilty.
		And I think it was a damn shame that you were made a scapegoat on that.
		And, you know, what else happens when you take a pile of money, a big pile, and hide the truth somewhere behind it?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Isn't that the truth?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, actually, during the trial, what I said was that I thought that there was enough money there that he actually purchased reasonable doubt.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
unidentified		And as far as somebody saying the N-word, hey, you know, you can poll any 1,000 people of different ethnic or origin and ask them if they've ever called somebody that was different, you know, an ethnic slur.
		And I mean, if they were honest, hey, you know, whatever.
		But I just want to let you know how you like the northern Idaho area.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, it's great.
		I grew up in Western Washington, so this is like returning home to me.
		So it's great, and I'm having a great time up here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you among friends?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		I've been among friends anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a big retirement community for police, isn't it?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I don't mean friends like that.
		I mean just everybody I meet.
		I make friends in every city I go.
		All different kinds of people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're happy there?
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, listen, the half hour is over.
		I wish it wasn't.
		I could go on and on, but why don't we let this one hang in the air and maybe I'll get a fax or something from Mr. Van Adder.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		I'll find it.
		If you get that, make sure the gloves are off.
		And tell him that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		You got it.
		Okay.
mark fuhrman ▲ ● ▼		Thanks a lot, honestly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Mark, and take care.
unidentified		You too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, that's Mark Furman.
		It's 2.30.
		He stayed up late with us.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		Coming up Open Lines.
unidentified		This is Coast to Coast A.M. Poll
		Mark Bell, Poll 3.
		West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		To get a copy of the program you just heard, you're welcome to call 1-800-917-4278.
		That's 1-800-917-4278.
		Mark Furman is a good interview with me.
		I'm afraid I've got some bad news for you in a moment here.
		We've just been able to confirm it, so I'm just now going to get it on the air.
		Are you working 9 to 5?
		Well, if so, there is a way out for you.
		There really is a way out.
		And it really does work, commodities trading.
		And that means coffee, cattle, beans, that sort of thing.
		And a lot of people think it's a good way to go broke.
		And actually, it is if you don't know what you're doing.
		Ken Roberts is a man who knows what he's doing and can teach you.
		He has taught thousands of people who are the ones who are consistent winners now in trading commodities.
		He doesn't tell you what to invest in.
		Instead, he teaches you how to invest.
		It's not a get-rich-quick scheme, though many have become wealthy.
		It's a very unique way of doing this.
		In other words, you invest on paper as you are learning, not using real money, but investing on paper as though you were.
		And only when you're absolutely confident you know what you're doing do you switch to money.
		And so if you don't become confident, obviously, you don't risk money.
		All you've got to do is make one free call.
		They will send you what they call their money kit.
		It's an audio tape and a 44-page report, lays the whole thing out.
		And you go from there.
		So the first step is without obligation, no obligation whatsoever.
		And it is free.
		Call 1-888-GOLD K-R-C.
		That's 1-888-G-O-L-D-K-R-C.
		Give me a minute to tell you about Ruthie and Larry Brown.
unidentified		You know, I've given GMX my personal endorsement for a long time now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In fact, this month I think I begin my third year working with the Browns.
		I like their GMX water conditioner, and I guess you do, too, because we've sure sold a bunch of them.
		But for all their success, the Browns are as real as their product.
		They have an office in their home in Colorado, talking to folks, sending information in GMX magnetic units all across America.
		GMX is the way to eliminate hard water problems.
		You know, that ugly white buildup known as scale, calcium, alkali, whatever you want to call it.
		It is ugly and damaging to your plumbing.
		It's easy.
		No salt, no electricity, no ongoing costs.
		And GMX magnetic units come with a 90-day money-backed ironclad guarantee and a lifetime warranty.
		You really should give them a call at 1-800-406-0469.
		Once you've experienced the spectacular benefits of GMX magnetic water conditioning, you may want to go into business for yourself, and Larry and Ruthie can help you.
		That's 1-800-406-0469.
		Tell them Art Bell told you to call.
		That's 1-800-406-0469.
		As many of you know, Daniel Brinkley is a very good friend of mine.
		Daniel Brinkley, I have just been informed, is in the hospital in intensive care with an aneurysm.
		The aneurysm is hemorrhaging on the right side of his brain.
		The bleeding is continuing, apparently, at this hour.
		We just received a call from his cousin.
		I'm not going to release the name of the hospital that he's in because the hospital would be under siege.
		But apparently, Danion is stable.
		They're reporting his condition as stable, but at the same time, they're reporting that he has an aneurysm that is hemorrhaging in his brain, right side.
		And his cousin asks, and I certainly second this, that you send any thoughts and prayers and energy that you can muster to try and heal Daniel's brain, to try and heal this aneurysm and stop the bleeding.
		Daniel has had a heart condition for a very long time.
		For that heart condition, he takes blood thinners.
		He's between a rock and a hard place right now because if he doesn't take the thinners, his blood clots and he has a heart attack.
		When he does take the blood thinners, and you begin to have a problem like an aneurysm, a bleeding aneurysm, then of course you're risking bleeding to death.
		So his situation is grave.
		And believe it or not, I guess he's conscious and he was able to talk with his cousin who talked to me a short time ago.
		And his concern was to let those of you who have ordered books from him personally, autographed books, know that he'll get the rest of the books out soon.
		that's what he wanted me to say on the air.
		So we have taken the time since we got this call to confirm the fact that he is indeed in the hospital.
		I wanted to be very sure that the information I had was accurate.
		Before I went on the air with it, I have confirmed it.
		So I would ask that everybody put out a thought and a prayer for Danion, if you can.
		I know he's not afraid to die.
		And I know that's what he'd be saying.
		But I'd just soon not lose him.
		So if you can give him a thought, I would appreciate that.
		And for him, not that I would think I should have to ask, but those of you who ordered books, please be patient.
		He's in intensive care.
		So let me tell you, if you hear me disappear in the next couple of days, it will be because I've spoken to Danion and I'm on my way back to where he is.
		Because if it gets to that, I will go.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I'm really sorry to hear that.
		And Danion's always, of course, lived on the edge with his health ever since what happened to him happened.
		He's had any number of physical ailments, and he's always known that nearly anything can kill him.
		I just hope this isn't it, because the world's a better place when he's around.
		So Danion, if you're out there and you're listening and you want me to come, I'll be on my way.
		Say the word.
unidentified		Say the word.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I guess there's some other people I should tell.
		So there you have it.
		I'm sorry to be dropping that on you, but I thought you should all know, and if there's a way to muster a lot of energy to somebody's benefit, Danion needs it now.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		News-wise, the only other story that I consider of great significance is now picked up by Drudge as well.
		It's going to be on 60 Minutes this Sunday.
		Retired Russian General Alexander Levid tells Sunday's 60 Minutes that Russia's military, this is absolutely incredible, has lost track of 100 suitcase sized nuclear bombs.
		CBS's Steve Croft investigates the terrifying possibility in a segment titled The Perfect Terrorist Weapon.
		Well, that's 100 suitcase sized nuclear bombs.
		How the hell could they lose 100 suitcase sized nuclear bombs?
		For the first time publicly, Levitt admits that the get this one kiloton devices, which are highly concealable, relatively easy to detonate by one person, are no longer under the control of the armed forces of Russia.
		In a private briefing to a delegation of U.S. congressmen last May in Moscow, he said he believed 84, 84 were unaccounted for.
		He tells 60 minutes.
		He believes the figure is now more like 100.
		These weapons in any size of a city could immediately, one of them, kill 100,000 people.
		That's absolutely incredible.
		So if you're in a big city, you might want to give this one a little bit of thought.
		If you're in Jerusalem this morning, you might want to give it a lot of thought.
		100 nuclear weapons.
		So I don't know.
		Those, I guess, are the two pieces of news.
		You may want to respond to what you heard with regard to the Mark Fuhrman interview.
		You may want to say something about Daniel.
		You may want to say something about 100 suitcases out there with the equivalent of 100 kilotons of nuclear mass death.
		Now, I wonder where they could be.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Ard.
unidentified		Let me be one of the first to wish well to Danny and his family.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, thank you.
unidentified		This is kind of tied in with, well, I don't want to call it prophecy, but you don't tape your shows that don't have a guest on, huh?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we tape all shows, but we don't make available programs generally on tape, you know, to the public that are not guest programs.
unidentified		Because I'm referring back to your prediction shows for this pre-New Year.
		I was one that came in at number 11.
		My prediction at that time was, and I don't know if you find this believable or not, but if you get to hear the tape, I said no less than four people will be in an accident, prominent people, celebrities.
		And then you had pressed me, oh, celebrities, four at once.
		I said, simultaneously, they're going to be in an accident.
		Two of them will be celebrities, and they might be with their wives or companions.
		And this Diana thing comes about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I maintain those records all year and pull them out at the end of every year when we do the new predictions.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So we'll have an opportunity to trope.
unidentified		Well, I think like when you wrote it down, you had said four people or four celebrities will be, and then I modified it to two celebrities with their companions, so that's why it would make news.
		I was also on the side predicted the Mel's whole prediction.
		So that's two in a row.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess we should consult you.
unidentified		But, you know, because I haven't heard anybody really, I'm not really going out around town saying, hey, I predicted somebody's death or whatever, but they didn't mention how Diana had a psychic and all that kind of thing.
unidentified		And she really didn't, they probably didn't tell her, you know, watch out, something's going to happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, if you had said Diana.
unidentified		Oh, well, then I'd be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'd be putting you in a lab, that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Taking you apart piece by piece.
unidentified		I tell you.
unidentified		But, you know, this is like my second year in a row that something came so close to how it was predicted in my particular case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, how did you get that information?
unidentified		I actually had I was laying on my back in bed, and you said, come up with your predictions for this year.
unidentified		The year prior, my prediction was that there was going to be a swarm of aircrafts landing with trouble.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I remember that.
unidentified		Yeah, so I remember that, didn't it?
		We did go over that, and, you know, this particular year, that was my prominent thought was this, you know, I didn't want to predict death.
		I just had four people will be in an accident.
		I said no less than four people, because I was thinking it could be somewhere like at a concert and the stage collapse or whatever.
		And then you pressed it saying, four celebrities all at once.
		And I said, well, it'll be two celebrities and their wives or whatever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, I will, I promise at the appropriate time, give you credit, we'll pull those out.
		We do predictions between Christmas and New Year's every year.
		As a ritual, I've done that for too many years now.
		And so we'll pull that out and give you a ding, ding, ding, ding when the time comes.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
unidentified		How are you doing this morning, sir?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay.
unidentified		Have they still got your potential?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Perump.
		Brump, sir.
		Perrump.
		No, it has cleared, thankfully, and I hope we get one more day of clear because the ground can't take anymore.
		So a day or two of clear, and maybe we're out of the woods.
unidentified		No, Theon.
		I had a question.
		Just your opinion on your interview with Mark Furman.
		Yes.
		Do you think basically that trial, the criminal trial involving Mr. Simpson, was basically he was declared not guilty in part for the simple fact that the powers that be, that were involved in that trial, were very apprehensive about the fact that they were going to have a repeat of the results of the Rodney King trial where they had rioting in Los Angeles.
		My understanding from people that lived in that area, they were very concerned.
		They said they were afraid that they were going to have something that would make the riots fall on the Rodney King.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, are you asking, do I think the prosecution did not present a full case because of that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that what you're asking?
unidentified		I would say in a roundabout way, sure, take it from that angle if you would.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would say that I wouldn't dismiss it as a possibility, but I don't know it to be true.
		I'm not trying to evade your question.
		That's the best I can do.
unidentified		That pretty well sums it up.
		I was just kind of curious as to what your thoughts might be on that.
		I tried calling when Mark was on as your guest, and I couldn't get through until just now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		I appreciate your call, and I can't dismiss what you have said.
		But it's hard to imagine that a prosecutor whose reputation in future, to some degree, would rest on getting a conviction, not losing what seemed to be an ironclad case, would do something like that, or could be talked into doing something like that.
		That's like throwing a baseball game or something, you know.
		Somebody sits you down and says, Well, look, you know, here are the real here's the real law of nature.
		You better follow it.
		You know, if you want to see your career continue, this is what's going to happen.
		And in fact, offering you a deal you can't refuse.
		I have a hard time believing that, but I don't dismiss the possibility.
		First time caller line, you're on air.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, sir.
unidentified		Art, the reason I'm calling, I heard the interview with Mr. Fuhrman tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And I take exception to what he said, a lot of things he said.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What?
unidentified		First of all, he lied to the jury, and he more or less said the reason he lied is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you referring to the use of the N-word?
unidentified		Yes.
		And he said the reason he lied is because the jury was black.
		And once he lied, he destroyed his credibility.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the only time that I know of that they were able to prove that he used the N-word was in that script.
		Okay, a piece of fiction.
		Now, I guess your statement can stand, technically, that he lied.
		Have you ever used the word?
		No.
		Well, yes, he did, in a fictional script.
		So I asked him that.
		I said, look, if you could go back now and you could answer differently, would you?
		And he said, yes.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		Well, he would answer differently.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I also asked him, do you think that cost the trial?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And he said, absolutely not.
unidentified		Well, I disagree with that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I might too, and I think I said so at the time, that that might have cost the trial.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It might have.
unidentified		Well, I think it was one of the most important things in the whole trial.
		Here's the member of the Los Angeles Police Department, lied on the stand.
		He destroyed his credibility, the credibility of the Los Angeles Police Department, the prosecution, and everything else.
		I absolutely believe that he was one of the most mitigating factors that lost the trial.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't necessarily disagree with you.
		I too thought that was a definite turning point.
		But he brought up an awful lot of things this morning that I've never heard before.
		How about you?
unidentified		Well, I didn't hear the whole program, but I heard that part, and I was more or less shocked when he answered the way he did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, all right.
		Having said that technically you're correct, you can also make another argument, and that is that the spirit of the question was, have you ever used that word in a serious vein out here in real life, not in something that you're writing?
		Not in something you're writing for a novel.
		And it's reasonable to say the spirit of the question didn't include whatever he might have done for fiction.
unidentified		Well, fiction or not, he was asked a straight question, I understand, by Mr. F. Lee Bailey.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but if I bring Tom Clancy or some other big author on the air here, and I ask them, have you ever used the N-word?
		Right.
		And they say no.
		It is reasonable they would say no, referring to their own life, their real life.
		But in a book, I'm not saying he has, but in a book Clancy or some other author may have written, it may have been used in a work of fiction.
		I don't think that exactly counts in the spirit of the question.
unidentified		Well, I think it counts in a court of law whether he's sworn to tell the truth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, there you are.
		So he said, look, he said, you know, I agree.
		So he said...
		Knowing hindsight, sir, is indeed 2020, if not better.
		And it's easy to look back and say that now.
		And sure, he'd answer it differently, knowing what he now knows about the way it turned out.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it was kind of a parlor trick.
unidentified		Well, it was a trick.
		It was a parlor trick.
		But he's sworn to tell the truth when he's on the stand.
		That's what he should do.
		He's a police officer.
		He's a sworn officer of the law, and he should tell the truth in a court of law on the stand, which he did not do.
		That's plain and simple.
		That's as far as it's cut and dry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, you know, technically, I have no argument for that, and I wouldn't try to make an argument.
		I appreciate your call, and I understand your point.
		I just hope you'll consider mine and how you might answer such a question yourself.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		This is Coast to Coast.
unidentified		You do it.
		You act only bad.
		I love you.
		Thank you.
		Dirty and sweet, I'm mad.
		Just remember when we did you got the teeth that I had upon you.
		Your duty's going back to your favorite.
		The End
		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am.
unidentified		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is great to be here.
		Some of the news of the morning is certainly not great.
		And again, Daniel Brinkley is in the hospital with an aneurysm bleeding on the right side of his brain.
		And Daniel, if you want me to come there, I will.
unidentified		Get that word to Daniel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, good morning, everybody.
		As you well know, the weather situation is worsening.
		There is an El Niño coming, the likes of which they have never seen before.
		It's very, very, very serious, and it's going to produce terrible storms.
		And I would like to suggest that every single one of you should have the Beijing radio in your home.
		It's a way of getting information when the power goes out, and you will continue to get information.
		The Beijing radio should be part of every single person's emergency equipment.
		Food, water, light, whatever you can scrounge together to have around, you ought to have.
		After listening to yesterday's program, I don't see how you can feel any other way.
		And information is part of that.
		Reliable information, and that will come from the Beijing radio.
		It has a crank on the side inside a very interesting, patented mechanism that in the future is going to be used for flashlights, computers, to operate all kinds of things.
		It's called the Bayless Clockwork Generator.
		And you turn the crank on this amazing radio for 30 seconds, and it plays on AM FM or numerous shortwave bands for 30 minutes.
		It plays at full room volume.
		Full room volume.
		It's a full-size portable.
		It comes from South Africa, manufactured in South Africa.
		Trevor Bayless in Great Britain invented this mechanism.
		It was originally intended for third world nations where power is interrupted frequently or non-existent.
		But it sounds like it has a pretty good use here.
		Wouldn't you say Bob Crane has them?
		They're $119.95.
		It's the best money you ever spent.
		Call Bob Crane in the morning at 7.30 and get one on the way.
		1-800-522-8863.
		That's 1-800-522-8863.
		It is, of course, the C. Crane Company.
		Now, I suppose you know what this is, right?
		We've been previewing this because I use it as bumper music all the time.
		It is Cusco, C-U-S-C-O.
		They're a German group.
		And this is a Puramac 3, the one I have been waiting a very long time for.
		I've been talking to you about it.
		It's called Nature, Spirit, and Pride.
		And the cut you're hearing now is called Ghost Dance.
		For a limited time, the people at Higher Octave have got a special new release just for my listeners.
		You can order Cusco's new Apermac 3 album on CD for $15.98.
		Best money you ever spent, $15.98.
		Or, if you want it on cassette, $9.98.
		Just call 1-800-562-8283.
		Now, if you happen to be one of the first lucky 25 callers on any individual night, your copy will be autographed by Cusco's own Michael Holm.
		You can have a limited edition boxed set that contains all three Cusco CDs.
		Now, I really recommend this, a Burramac 1, 2, and 3.
		Covers about 90% of the bumper music I play.
		And there you get an autographed poster.
		The combined price for that is $39.95.
		The beautiful box set.
		It's not available in stores, naturally.
		I love that line.
		In other words, you can only get it here.
		What a great gift idea for you Cusco lovers.
		Don't miss out on these special offers.
		Once again, Cusco's new Apuramac 3, $15.98 CD, or $9.98 cassette, or the limited edition of Puramac Collection, 3 CD box set, for $39.95.
		You want to hear something really cool?
		Before the release of this record, this CD, the most amazing thing has occurred simply because I was playing it on, you know, as bumper music on this program.
		You're not going to believe this, but I just received word that the debut position for this cut, those dance, actually for the CD, in the New Age list that they keep nationwide, it debuted at number eight.
		I said number eight before it was even released.
		I was the only one in the whole nation playing it.
		Not bad, folks.
		Not bad at all.
		Again, that number is 1-800-562-8283.
		Mention the name Art Bell.
		Are you having arthritis pain?
	Would you like to stop that pain in your joints now?
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	Call 1-800-232-5665.
	It's guaranteed to work with your money back, and you can't get it in stores.
	Call now, 1-800-2325-665.
	We've got nothing to lose but the pain.
unidentified		We've got nothing to lose but the pain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Probably be a very good time for you to give a good thought to Daniel Brinkley.
		It's what I'm thinking.
		Boy, when everything's just going all right, life comes along and kicks you right in the ass, doesn't it?
		Get well, Daniel.
		All right, here's some more reaction, quite varied, I would say, to the Mark Furman interview we did tonight, which I thought was very good.
		Good morning, Art.
		The image the media created of Mark Furman during the trial is not at all consistent with what I'm hearing this morning.
		As the major media has a tremendous impact on the gullible American belief system, when, if ever, will we have the truth in media coverage?
		Great show, take care.
		Steve, Stateline, Nevada, listening to 780KOH.
		That's one.
		Here's another.
		Mr. Bell, I was completely and absolutely appalled by the interview you conducted with Mark Furman.
		You treated a liar as if he were a saint.
		As a black male, I knew he had used the term.
		I knew he was lying when he said it.
		My instinct tells me that there were other lies told as well.
		He stated, and you agreed, that he used these statements as part of a screenplay.
		That I believe to be true, yes.
		If this was the case, why didn't he say that when they asked him had he ever said the word?
		Once they knew he did, instead, he pleads the fifth.
		Come on.
		Ask him how many times he's seen an innocent man or woman take the fifth.
		Well, I have two responses for you.
		One is, did you miss the part, sir, it says goodbye, the only way he signs it, he doesn't sign it, it says goodbye.
		Did you miss the part where he had worked to free a black man falsely accused of the crime?
		Is that the act of a racist?
		That's a reasonable question.
		Did that information ever get into the trial?
		No, it didn't.
unidentified		Technically, did he lie?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Technically, he did.
		And in my opinion, it might have cost the trial.
		That might have been it.
		I said so at the time, and I say so now.
		However, if, in the spirit of the question, in the real spirit of the question, I saw no evidence produced that he had used the word in any context other than that of a fictional context.
		And if you were to indict every author who had done that, there'd be a lot of people indicted, I would say.
		I do have a question.
		Something that I have never really quite understood.
		When obviously it would be awful in the line of duty, and really police officers are always on duty in the strictest sense, for a police officer, to use the word nigger, in a derogatory manner toward a black man.
		The one thing I've never understood, maybe a black person can tell me, why do black people consistently use that word to each other?
		It obviously has some different connotation that I don't properly understand.
		But black men are always calling themselves each other.
		Hey, nigger.
		You hear it on the street.
		It's got a different connotation somehow.
		It means something different.
		Now, you don't hear people in the white community saying, hey, whitey, or hey, white trash, or hey, you know, whatever derogatory term could be used to describe a white person and insult them racially.
		You don't hear white people doing that to each other.
		And yet you hear blacks doing that to themselves all the time.
		So there must be some very different connotation when blacks use that word than when whites use it.
		And I have never fully understood that, and I don't now.
		I don't understand why is that used.
		Perhaps somebody in the black community can tell me why that is used.
		Wes to the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
		Yes, this is Art Bell.
		Yes.
		Art, this is Nancy calling from Missoula.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Nancy.
unidentified		Hi, two things real quick.
unidentified		I want to recommend a book to you about time travel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		It's an excellent one, the best one I've ever read.
		It's by a man named Patrick O'Leary called Door Number Three.
		Fabulous read.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I like the title already.
unidentified		Door number three.
		It's an incredible read.
		Also, I want to say to you that, you know, it has been prophesied that at this time when the major earth changes start and we go through this period, that a lot of people will be leaving the planet in different ways, especially a lot of people in the light.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And I'm wondering if that's what we're starting to see and praying that Daniel is not one of those.
		My prayers go out to him.
		I've read all of his books, and he is an incredible human being, and it would be a lot to lose him, especially now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've never met anybody like Daniel.
unidentified		No, he's an amazing human being.
unidentified		He's truly a saint.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I agree with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I don't know what to say.
unidentified		Pray.
		I am.
		This thing with Diana, surprisingly, I was really amazed at my own emotions and feelings with that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I haven't figured that one out yet at all.
unidentified		Well, I believe she was truly a light, too.
unidentified		And had she been around longer, we might have seen more of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe people recognized something very specially different about her.
unidentified		That's what I truly identified with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Something special.
unidentified		That when the light is gone, people realize that that really was a bright light that no longer have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep, you've got it.
		Thank you very much.
		I've been working really hard on that.
		The reaction to Diana's death, tragic as it is, is utterly, totally disproportionate to the place that she occupied in the minds and hearts of the American people.
		Or you could argue that's absolutely wrong, obviously, now.
		But it was not wrong up until the moment of her death.
		So I'm still trying to figure that one out, too.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		This is Dave from the Bay Area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Dave.
unidentified		And enjoy your show tremendously and have sent my energies off to Damien.
		But I wanted to make a comment or two on your program tonight.
		Yep.
		Mr. Furman, you know, this narrow focus on the N-word, I can't help but remember those women and a couple other witnesses that spelled out really rabidly racist stuff out of his mouth.
		And I really don't think that should be forgotten.
		And I'm kind of sorry that you chose to have him on the show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't remember direct testimony other than of his use of that word, other than in that screenplay.
unidentified		Those two women both testified, a blonde and a red-haired, and then there were also two blacks.
		Edo limited to only four.
		I'm a little nervous.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, that's all right.
unidentified		And I'm sorry you didn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Look, I will interview anybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If I haven't proven that over the years, then.
unidentified		Yeah, that's okay.
unidentified		I understand, and I really like your show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me ask you this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why did you sit there and listen?
unidentified		Well, I wasn't going to.
		I was going to boycott it.
		And I thought, well, maybe I should listen and see what he says.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There is no way, really.
		There is no way to know if somebody is really racist in their heart or not.
		I just, I don't know how you know that.
		I mean, I talked about this during the trial.
		People use words.
		And you may be right.
		There may have been other testimony.
		I can't remember.
		I sort of vaguely remember.
unidentified		Two women.
unidentified		What came out was terrible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I vaguely remember something about that.
		But anyway, whether or not he did use the word, and it's obvious he did, technically or really, he lied.
		You really don't know if a person is truly a racist person or not.
		And, you know, I talked to him about that.
		This thin blue line.
		In other words, if you're policing in a community that's mainly black, I think he said he was in Watts, right?
		Early on for a lot of years in Watts.
		And you see black crime day in and day out and day in and day out, pretty soon in your mind, whether you like it or not, whether you began thinking about it in the beginning or not, you start to identify black people with crime.
		Now, that's one thing.
		But then there's this thin blue line that you can cross over when you become a racist.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Well, your points are well taken, and were it not for that other testimony, you know, I would say, yes, true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But even if you used the word, sir.
unidentified		That's not the word.
		You're talking about the stuff that those two women were talking about.
		Don't you remember about black people being burned alive?
		Don't you remember that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think that was from the...
unidentified		It was from the one woman, and then there was another woman.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but that was from...
unidentified		That wasn't anything to do with the screenplay?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think it was.
unidentified		No, it wasn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, maybe my memory is faulty, but I don't think so.
unidentified		She met him with the Marines and all that business had nothing to do with the screenplay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I remember an encounter in a bar.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You remember the woman, is that the woman you're talking about who had a casual encounter with?
unidentified		I don't think so.
unidentified		I think she met him with friends.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then I have forgotten it.
unidentified		Anyway, the only other thing is I wanted to bring up this issue about you got a call the other day, not a call, a facts, from somebody that worked at Area 51.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and you know what?
		I've had a series now of three calls from this person, and not once has it been a live person.
		Each time it has been some sort of messaging service, and each time he has said, well, I cannot speak yet, I'll call you at such and such a time, and then I get another recording.
unidentified		All I want to say to you is be careful.
		What's his name, Courtney Brown?
		Was that his name got set up?
		It sounded a little too pat.
		Well, it might be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, but again, anybody of great interest, I will put on the air, and I'll let you guys decide for yourself whether he's a nutcase or credible.
unidentified		But I say it in this sense: I'm sure, just like they've gone after many people, and I'm talking about the rogue elements of the government, they've gone after many people, I am sure they would like to nail you.
		So I'm just saying, be careful.
		Stephen Greer's got cancer.
		His assistant's got cancer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I knew.
unidentified		Carla Turner, who was connecting negative aliens with the military, got cancer.
unidentified		The congressman from New Mexico has got cancer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bob Guccione's wife has cancer.
unidentified		Yeah, but he's talking about people that were giving him trouble.
unidentified		That guy from New Mexico.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, wait a minute.
		Hold on.
		Slow up.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you know what magazine Bob Guccioni's wife published?
unidentified		Well, Bob Guccione's Penthouse.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but also another one.
unidentified		No, I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You ever heard of Omni?
unidentified		Yeah, that's a good point.
		All of a sudden, it's gone.
		And all of a sudden, this distributor that was publishing all these New Age books and UFO books is gone.
		They're playing hardball.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know that to be true.
		I'll tell you, behind the scenes, I'm doing some work in this area.
		I'm not prepared to say anything about it yet.
		You and I have just said enough.
		The people can draw their own conclusions, but behind the scenes, I'm doing some work on this.
unidentified		The reason why I bring this up is before I thought they couldn't touch somebody that was too high profile, but if they can give people cancer.
unidentified		I'm going to help with a pickup truck.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
unidentified		Radiate the right frequencies?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, all right.
		Thank you.
		Look, I'm not prepared to go out where you just went.
		What I told you is I am aware of the numbers.
		I'm aware of the people involved.
		And I've been looking at this behind the scenes and will continue to.
		I need to talk to Dr. Greer.
		Anyway, I don't really want to talk about this on the air a whole lot more right now, thank you.
		Just let me do what I can with this, and when the story and the time is right, if it is, we'll talk about it.
		From the high desert, this is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		I see trees of green, red and dew.
		I see them blue for me, and I think to myself, What a wonderful call art bell, toll free.
		West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, if you haven't heard, if you know Danion Brinkley, Danion's in the hospital intensive care with a bleeding aneurysm on the right side of his brain.
unidentified		The colors of the rainbow so pretty in the sky.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So just on the chance, you know, that it might work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Prayer or two, thought, something.
unidentified		Oh boy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Keeps you right in the ribs, huh?
unidentified		I can't really stand.
		Thank you.
		My fingers round, I watch them grow, they'll learn much more.
		And I wonder and I think to myself what a wonderful world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would hope that his friend and our mutual friend, Dr. Moody, has been notified.
		If not, I made a call during one of the breaks.
		We'll see.
		You know, if it's his time, he'll be called and he'll go.
		and the thing I guess keep in mind is that Danian was never afraid of it And just wait and see what happens.
		That's hard news.
		Hard news, you know.
		I don't like getting this kind of news while I'm on the air.
		So you will have to excuse me if I seem to be a little at any rate.
		No, Danny, you know, I'll come if you wish me to come.
		If you won't be there, I'll be there.
		Through your cousin or through Raymond or whoever.
		Or call me.
		Let's talk about the miracle of Web TV.
		It is that.
		The web really is something, you know.
		I don't know if you're on the web yet, but if you're not, you should be.
		For the sake of your family and your children, there is no greater information source in the world right now than the Internet.
		In the case of what we've got to offer you for sale, it's all in a little black box.
		It's not a big computer system, a little black box.
		It has six built-in email addresses, parental controls, awesome graphics, easy-to-use remote controller, optional wireless keyboard.
		And when you sign up at $19.95 a month, which means unlimited use, you get free upgrades.
		Recently, they've added about 16.
		More are on the way.
		And the best deal of all is right now, they've got now the new Hewlett-Packard color printer for Web TV.
		Hooray, it is the good one, the fastest in its class.
		The Lewis brothers have the printer cable and adapter all for $289.99.
		And believe me, that's less than you'll pay in stores.
		Or an even better package deal, here it is, Web TV, the unit itself, the wireless keyboard, the entire printer setup I just described.
		In other words, a $700 value.
		And I have no idea how they're doing this, but they're selling it for $579.95.
		$579.95.
		Mention that price in stores.
		Try it.
		Go ahead.
		See if you can get that price on that package in any store.
		They'll laugh you right out of the store.
		Call the Lewis Brothers at 1-800-659-2669.
		That's 1-800-659-2669.
		They are the people who have the best deal on Web TV.
		And if you're not on the internet, isn't it about time?
		In today's world of shaky currencies, massive borrowing, and higher interest rates, it might be time to get a little old-fashioned with your money.
		Time to buy gold.
		Most investors know that gold is a good investment during times of inflation.
		Actually, gold is a hedge against all forms of economic uncertainty.
		Gold's value went up 800% during the inflationary 70s, 15% during the market crash of 1987, and 70% during the Great Depression.
		The Swiss refer to gold as the ultimate currency since it retains its purchasing power when all else fails.
		Eventually, all paper currencies inflate and fail.
		Even the celebrated Swiss franc has lost over 50% of its buying power since 1945.
		No paper currency is immune.
		Gold, on the other hand, will buy everything today that it bought 20, 50, even 100 years ago.
		So, if you're uncomfortable about the ever-growing government debt, perpetual deficits, rising taxes, and their effect on your personal net worth, it's time to face facts.
		Call North American Trading at 1-800-359-4255 and ask for their free information on buying gold safely and privately.
		Remember, 1-800-359-4255, North American Trading, America's trusted name in private hard assets.
		You don't have to be rich to own gold, just smart.
		All right, another 20 minutes, so let's keep going here.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yes, it's good to hear from you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's good to hear from you.
unidentified		Okay, well, I'm glad to be here.
unidentified		I wanted to just talk to you about that lady you had on from Atlantis about two weeks ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		I have a gentleman that I work with.
		He's in his 70s.
		His son lives in Alaska, and he knows a man by the name of Colonel Norman Vaughn, who's 91, and he lives in Alaska.
		Now, he happens to be the only surviving member left over from the Birds party, both of his expeditions to Antarctica.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, he'd be an interesting interview.
unidentified		Well, he would not be hard for you to get a hold of if you've got some of your contacts up there in Alaska.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have contacts in Alaska.
unidentified		Well, his name is Norman Vaughn.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Norman Vaughan, huh?
unidentified		And the Vaughn Mountain in Antarctica is named after him.
		But anyway, to make a long story short, Bill, who I work with, is in his 70s.
		Now, both these two characters are like your friend up there who climbs the tower still at 76.
		Vaughn is planning on going on a 900-mile dog sled trip through the Arctic here pretty soon, and he wanted Bill to come up there and go with him.
		But anyway, to make a long story short, Bill and I were listening to this lady on the radio, and she talked about how Bird flew his plane into the inner earth down in Antarctica.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Well, Bill called his son up in Alaska and said, get a hold of Norman and see what he has to say about all this.
unidentified		Well, let me tell you, Norman, from what I understand, we heard from his son about a week later, and he has had about 100 letters and I don't know how many phone calls from people all over the country calling him saying that this lady's talking about bird going to the center of the earth through a hole in the Antarctic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, now wait a minute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure she said the center of the earth.
unidentified		Well, okay, maybe not the center of the earth, but she said the inner earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Inner earth, yes.
unidentified		A big hole that he flew into the inner earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		And he got all kinds of calls and letters, over 100 people wanting to know, you know, what the scoop is.
		Well, he says it is a bunch of bull, but he would still make an interesting.
		He would, yeah.
		But the thing was, I was surprised on how many people had already contacted him in that short period of time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we've got a big audience.
		So I have learned that I've got to be careful about anything I say.
		Listen, where are you?
unidentified		Monroe, Louisiana.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Monroe?
unidentified		240 talk radio, depend on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I once lived in Monroe.
unidentified		Oh, you did?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I worked for KNOE.
unidentified		Okay, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know if there's still KNOE down there.
unidentified		They have a big TV station, and they also have a little country station on the AM dial.
unidentified		That's on the FM side.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, it was AM then.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was a long time ago, my friend.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it was pretty interesting because I had never lived in the real deep south before, even though I was born in North Carolina.
		I've been more or less all over the country, but never in the real deep south.
		And that was my first experience.
		And I remember answering the request lines down there, and people would ask me to play songs, and I couldn't understand a word they were saying.
		I mean, their accents, I was so unused to their accents, I couldn't understand a word they were saying.
unidentified		That was, what, back in the 50s?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that was a long time ago.
unidentified		Well, you know, with modern television now, we've lost a lot of That.
unidentified		Now, we still have an accent, which I'm sure a lot of you people will think that I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, you have one, but it's entirely understandable.
unidentified		Well, I had at this other job that I had, my boss's mother called up there looking for him, and she was in her 70s, and she had one of these old-fashioned southern bell accents, and I didn't realize who it was at first.
		And when she called asking for my boss, I thought it was somebody pulling my leg.
		Now, it was one of those true hey-dollin type of things.
		I know.
		I can understand where you're coming from with those old accents, but a lot of that is really fading away because of television.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was hard for me.
		I appreciate the call, sir.
		Thank you, and I'll follow up on Norman Vaughan if I can.
		I mean, there were times when people call up and ask me to play something or another, and I had no clue what they were saying to me, and I used to have to say, okay, we'll get it on.
		After a while, of course, you begin to become accustomed to the accents, and then you start hearing things correctly.
		But it took a while.
		It was kind of a shock to my system.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		It's Jay from Portland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, hi.
unidentified		I wonder what happened to my favorite color, the Perfect 10.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		She hasn't.
		She hasn't managed to get through for a long time now.
		But it's hard.
		There's a lot of people trying to get through.
unidentified		And then I also think that maybe towards the end of the end of the hour, if we all put out the energy towards Daniel, a healing energy towards him, possibly it might work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I want everybody to do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not just at the end of the hour.
unidentified		Yeah, but I think if we all did a concentrated thing, say, like at 258 or so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's worth a try.
unidentified		Sure.
		And the third thing, you keep saying about Scallion.
		I am positive, Art, that he had said in his last show with you, he had said that the three-part scenario does not come true, regardless by the end of 96, that California is going to be devastated and that the quakes are going to happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, I don't remember that.
		I remember him saying that again and again.
		He said the cycle has to complete.
unidentified		No, he didn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And at the time that I talked to him, we were two-thirds of the way through that cycle.
unidentified		Do you remember that?
		Yes, but I'm telling you, Art, go back and check the tape.
		He did say that.
		He said if it doesn't complete that, regardless, by the end of 96, he has said that the earthquakes are going to come in southern California and the mass exodus is going to happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		We're in disagreement, but that's the way it is.
		I'll see if I can get a hold of the tape.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right?
		Thanks.
		I remember very distinctly questioning him about the cycle, and he said before that could happen, that cycle would have to complete.
		That's what I recall.
		And I recall diligently watching that cycle go around once and then stop, go around twice, and then I began to get very concerned.
		And that is one of the junctures at which we had him on.
		And I don't ever recall him saying that no matter what with regard to the cycle, the following would happen.
		I don't recall that.
		It may be, but I don't recall it.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Yeah, this is Jerry.
unidentified		I'm calling from Des Moines.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Jerry.
unidentified		I think I'm the first person in Des Moines that's ever called you.
unidentified		Am I correct?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		No.
		Well, I've listened to you for months now.
		I got started from a person that works at the zoo.
		He said, you've got to listen to this art bell.
		He talks about UFOs and everything that you're interested in.
		We have a lot in common.
		I'm a mason myself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You are?
unidentified		Yeah, how long have you been a mason?
unidentified		How many years?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can't discuss it.
unidentified		Oh, I can.
unidentified		I've been going on 16 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		And I listened to your show, and I find it very interesting.
unidentified		In fact, I taught a course out of area college in Des Moines on UFOs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		And I picked you up on what used to be called KIOA, and now they changed their call there from KXTA.
unidentified		Are you familiar with KION?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You changed from KXTA, or they are now KXTA?
unidentified		They used to be called KIOA.
unidentified		And I used to be on the James Wayman Show, and I'd talk about UFOs, and they called me Information X. And I used to be on a lot of talk shows, and I've been in some of those old UFO magazines.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes?
unidentified		So we have a lot in common.
		I enjoy your show.
		I don't always believe everything I hear, but it's still.
		Well, neither do I. No, but who's to say that they're telling the truth?
		And who's to say that they're right or wrong?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, KXTK is our Des Moines affiliate.
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		$9.40 on the dollar.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		$10,000 wants, big time.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		And I tried to get your book at Borders Bookstore, Hari Harr.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		Yes, they're all sold out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, hound them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hound them.
unidentified		Oh, you know, they said, well, we can order it, so I'm going to do that.
		But no, they said it's very popular.
		They knew exactly what I was talking about.
		I didn't think they would.
		And I thought, you know, I'm not Des Moines.
		They wouldn't know this.
		Yeah, right.
		They did.
		They said, oh, yes.
		He says, we're all sold out.
		And they say, we'll have the special order for you.
		How many copies do you think you've sold so far?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's 100,000 in print.
unidentified		And still going?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and still going.
		We're about to be on the best-seller list.
		How about that, huh?
unidentified		Now, here's the other thing that's weird.
unidentified		I started getting interested in UFOs when I was five years old.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I take it you've seen one.
unidentified		Yes, there are a lot of people in Des Moines dead.
unidentified		You saw it back in 1990.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's all it takes.
		Listen, I've got to run.
		Thank you very much.
		You know, once you've seen one, it changes your entire life.
		How can it not?
		To me, there are only two possibilities with regard to UFOs.
		Either they are something that our own government has that is so advanced that we don't even have a hint.
		Not even close.
		I mean, you know, we've Got cell technology, the F-117.
		I can imagine a generation or two beyond that that we might have that might surprise us, but it would be a natural progression, not something capable of defying gravity.
		What I saw defied gravity.
		Period.
		Feiss defied gravity.
		That's all.
		So, two possibilities.
		One, we have something so far ahead of what our government has admitted that we have that if we were to find out about it, it would be a monstrous story, and there would be questions about where we got that technology.
		Or two, we are being visited by people from elsewhere.
		It is one of those two things.
		And once you have seen this for yourself, if it doesn't change your life, you're pretty thick.
		As my fifth-grade teacher used to tell me, you're thick.
		I'll never forget her.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		Yeah, my thoughts and prayers are with Daniel Brinkley.
		Good.
		My mother was in the same situation, and it's not a good situation.
		I do have a...
		Right.
		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not good.
unidentified		It's not good at all.
unidentified		You know, I do pray for him on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Call toll-free, 1-800-618-8255.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, see, the way you just use it.
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, go ahead.
unidentified		Okay.
		All right.
		I'm gay.
		So when someone says faggot, it depends on who you say it to and how you say it.
		Yeah.
		In other words, within the black community, if you say it to a friend, you know, if they refer to their friend as a nigger, it's being unfamiliar term.
		But if it's used in a negative relation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, you're gay, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you say so.
unidentified		I don't hate the word faggot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, you hate the word faggot.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you are with your friends, do you call each other faggots?
unidentified		Used to when I was young.
unidentified		Don't do it now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've never heard that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, I'm not in the gay community, but I've never heard that.
unidentified		Yeah, we use the term.
unidentified		We call each other faggots.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I'm a white person.
		I don't ever hear white people calling each other, hey, whitey, or hey, honky, or hey, white trasher, or some derogatory term that would be attached to a white person.
		I don't ever hear that.
unidentified		In the 70s I used honky.
		We did hear that.
		I'm in the Washington area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From another white people to white people?
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've never heard it.
		That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
		I've never heard it.
unidentified		In urban areas, I mean suburban areas, yes, you do do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, live and learn, I suppose.
unidentified		I mean, so it is common.
		And it's just the way you use the word.
		But, and how familiar you are with the other person, you know, black on black, even a white person with a black person, you can call them a nigger.
		But you must be friends with them.
		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, in today's atmosphere out there.
unidentified		Extremely politically incorrect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In today's atmosphere, I almost can't conceive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I suppose it could happen, but it's almost hard to conceive of.
unidentified		Unfortunately, I'm a professional.
		I'm a customer service manager.
		And we had the issue come up at work.
		And believe me, when a customer calls a black person a nigger, it is not good.
		And the person is extremely upset.
		But that same person will refer to another individual of the same race, a good friend, as a nigger in common terms without any problem.
		But if it's used negatively, then there's a problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, let me just say this.
		In today's atmosphere, in today's world, it's really hard to imagine a situation between the races where that would be used and would be considered anything but a horrendous racist insult.
		My only curiosity was about why blacks use it themselves with each other.
		And Whitestone, I don't think Hispanics do.
unidentified		And Whitestone, I don't think you're going to be able to do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know, we waste so much time on this racism thing.
		Period.
		It's such a horrendous waste of human energy.
		That's what I've always thought of it as.
		Just a plain waste of human energy.
		Do we need to hate so much?
		Do we really need to hate so much?
		It's almost like a need.
		Maybe it's part of the human condition that you've got to hate.
		that you've got to have an enemy.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe that's why we have wars, you know?
		So we can put all kinds of different people of different colors in ditches together and they can observe they all have the same color of blood when they're hit with bullets.
		Well, the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
		Rich from San Jose, California.
		How are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's...
unidentified		I know.
		My thoughts and prayers are going out to Daniel, and I enjoy him so much when he's on the show.
		And just hope he gets well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hope so, too.
unidentified		I had a baby sister, 31 years old, with an aneurysm.
unidentified		We lost her five years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry.
unidentified		And that was at the base of her neck.
		But, you know, my thoughts and prayers are out.
		On a brighter note, I got to talk to Mr. Fidget the other night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You talked to Mr. Fidget?
unidentified		He called me.
		I gave him my phone number when I sent him for a couple of fidgets there.
		And he gave me a call the next day.
		He surprised me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's like hearing from a celebrity, huh?
unidentified		Yeah, he's a pretty nice guy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Fidget on the phone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, listen, my program is over, so.
unidentified		Oh, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You do it.
unidentified		Well, good night throughout the world and from coast to coast and from Rich and San Jose and Art Belt.
unidentified		That's it.

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