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Sept. 4, 1997 - Art Bell

03:54:03

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Murder in Brentwood - Mark Fuhrman

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	Thanks for watching. Please subscribe.
	From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I bid you all top of the morning, evening, morning, whatever it is in your time zone, in all these many, many time zones, stretching from the Tunisian and Hawaiian island chains in the West, eastward to the Caribbean, the U.S.
	Virgin Islands, south into South America, north all the way to the Pole, and worldwide on the Internet, this is Coast to Coast AM.
	Good morning, I'm Mark Bell.
	Coming up shortly, Mark Furman.
	Detective Mark Furman.
	Now retired.
	It should be very, very interesting.
	I'd like to welcome W.E.R.C.
	in Birmingham, Alabama.
	Big one down there, 960 on the dial.
	5,000 non-directional watts obviously serving the entire region.
	But from Birmingham, Alabama, so welcome W.E.R.C.
	Glad to have you on board.
	The only piece of news I see that really knocked my socks off was about the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 story on Reuters tonight that just cleared the wire.
	It's gonna run on 60 minutes this Sunday.
	Check this out.
	Titled, Russia said missing many nukes.
	This'll slay you.
	Unintended.
	Former Russian National Security Advisor Alexander Lebed says the Russian military has lost track of more than 100 suitcase-sized nuclear bombs, any one of which could kill up to 100,000 people.
	In an interview with CBS News' 60 Minutes program to be aired this Sunday, Lebed Said the devices, quote, are not under the control of the armed forces of Russia, end of quote.
	He said the devices made to look like suitcases could be detonated by one person within half an hour.
	That had said he did not know what had happened to the missing bombs.
	So that would be 100 of them, folks, the size of a suitcase.
	And that really bears a little thought, particularly in view of the suicide bombings in Israel yesterday and many, many other days as well.
	If there's a hundred out there, you've got to imagine that Hamas eventually will get their hands on at least one.
	Let's talk for a second about Ruthie and Larry Brown and their company, which is GMX.
	It is a magnetic water conditioner.
	And it works!
	Can I tell you it works?
	People think there's no way magnetic rays clamped to pipes, which is what this is, could possibly condition water.
	Because, they say, there's no way it could pull it through the pipe.
	Well, the way it works is not that way at all.
	It actually affects the minerals as the water flows through the pipe.
	And it simply changes their properties magnetically so they don't stick to anything.
	And when they don't stick to anything, you've effectively got hard water licked.
	Anyway, look, it comes with a 90-day money-back guarantee and a lifetime warranty, and it works.
	They guarantee it.
	So take my word for it.
	Try it.
	And if you find I lied, which I'm not, you get your money back.
	Period.
	The number is 1-800-406-0469.
	1-800-406-0469.
	That's 1-800-406-0469.
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	As we age, most of us get arthritis and our cartilage begins getting brittle.
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	Here is the offer.
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	Call 1-800-232-5665.
	It's guaranteed to worker your money back, and you can't get it in stores.
	Call now, 1-800-232-5665.
	You've got nothing to lose but the pain.
	Alright, here from Idaho is retired detective Mark Furman.
	Welcome to the show.
	Well, thanks, sir.
	Great to have you.
	How's retirement?
	Well, it's pretty hectic.
	I don't think I've ever even considered retirement yet.
	I've got more on my plate now than I did when I was on the job, I think.
	Yeah, I know the feeling.
	I used to work at a radio station, Mark, and then they built me a studio here at home and they said, gee, you'll have so much time, you're not commuting 120 miles anymore.
	And now I'm where everybody can find me and I have no time.
	You have no place to hide.
	No place to hide.
	That's exactly right.
	So you're staying busy.
	You're speaking, I guess, engagements, that kind of thing?
	Well, not really.
	I did quite a bit of media during the launch of my book, about six weeks on TV.
	Then I did probably, I'd say, upwards of 250 radio shows.
	Wow.
	After that, I immediately started researching for another book.
	And at the same time, I've been doing book signings for this book, and I continuously do radio shows.
	You know, not as frequent, but I still do that.
	Murder in Brentwood is the book, and I'm sure we'll talk about it in detail.
	How long were you in the police force?
	20 years.
	20 years?
	To the day.
	To the day?
	To the minute.
	Really?
	Oh, yeah.
	That I would retire at 20 years and 20 seconds.
	And not because I didn't love the job.
	I just figured that you do your time and you learn something and then you move to it so you have another career in front of you.
	I figured I had another 20 years as a private investigator for maybe a corporation or insurance company.
	How much of it was for LAPD?
	All 20.
	All 20?
	When I said 20 years, 20 minutes, I came into the academy at Eight o'clock in the morning, August 4th, 1975.
	I signed my papers eight o'clock in the morning, August 4th, 1995.
	Wow.
	Well, you knew what you wanted to do then, and you did it.
	And that's good.
	You say you've got another career, or you want another career, or you can have another career.
	What would it be?
	Are you really going to go into some sort of private detective work?
	Kind of a long way around the barn instead of now working for a corporation as an investigator.
	What I plan on doing, I am currently investigating and researching an unsolved homicide to write a non-fiction book, which I hope will bring that case to a conclusion.
	So in essence, I'm actually being more of a detective than I was.
	Or I could have been with a private corporation.
	I'm doing the same thing really.
	It's what I know.
	I don't have any reason to deviate from that.
	How long were you on the force with Los Angeles before you became a detective?
	Thirteen years I spent in the street.
	Thirteen years?
	That's a long time in the street.
	That's a long time in the street.
	I did a lot of things in the street.
	I actually worked as a detective after my first three years in gangs.
	Almost three years.
	That was a federally funded gang program where we had three teams in this gang unit.
	We really just took everything from the time we were at the murder scene.
	We just worked as a team to track down all the clues, all the follow-ups, all the interviews, all the investigation, all the intelligence and all the enforcement and all the search warrants and whatever it led to.
	So we worked as a team.
	So actually, I had a lot of detective experience there, and then I worked a narcotics task force and surveillance units and the such.
	So it wasn't just uniform.
	All right.
	You mentioned gangs.
	Since you worked gangs, I interviewed country star Merle Haggard for five hours the other night.
	We're talking about Las Vegas, and I'm just over the hill from Las Vegas.
	Years ago, Mark, in Las Vegas, we didn't have a gang problem.
	No gang problem.
	And the reason we had no gang problem was because the guys who ran Las Vegas generally took those kind of problems out into the desert.
	They were dealt with pretty much that way.
	No gang problem.
	I know exactly what you're saying.
	You know, in Vegas, if you come in early in the morning, when the sun's just starting to come up, you look over the desert, there's all these kind of lumps.
	You kind of wonder what they are.
	Oh, I don't wonder.
	But things changed, you know.
	Las Vegas became a sort of a combination gambling, gaming town, Disneyland.
	Politics changed, sheriffs changed, things changed.
	Now, there's gangs.
	It's like everywhere else.
	But there was a day when that problem and a lot of others just didn't happen, and if they did, they didn't last long.
	What, from your perspective, Could be done about gangs.
	I mean, if you had a free hand, and I'm not suggesting you would settle it as they used to here in Las Vegas, but how would you deal with it?
	Well, I think the first thing is I really saw the trend.
	When I first went into a gang unit, it was 1977, and to my knowledge it was the first federally funded gang unit in the country.
	And what we found was gangs predominantly then It was a neighborhood, territorial type of structure.
	Kids that maybe weren't great students or didn't have a great home life or they were criminals already, they grouped together and called themselves gangs for nothing more than protection and courage.
	It became a neighborhood thing.
	But with the onset of crack cocaine, all the rules changed.
	Those rules became Money was no object.
	Before, in 1977, you would have gang members with single barrel shotguns that were sought off, single barrel .22s, Saturday night specials.
	By 1983, 1984, 1985, we're seeing gang members with AK-47s and 5,000 rounds, very expensive handguns, and they wouldn't keep them.
	They'd just drop them wherever they were.
	They had no problem.
	So the whole nature of gangs changed and cocaine did that?
	You had a real money problem and then there was no more neighborhood or territorial issue.
	This was making money, which started gang wars, which started people joining gangs for
	protection and then power.
	It just toppled over itself.
	It was just incredible.
	So the whole nature of gangs changed and cocaine did that.
	Yes, and at the same time the federal government put a lot of pressure on organized crime,
	which did have control of a lot of the narcotics trafficking in the country and how their own
	enforcement of narcotics would be enforced, if you can understand what I mean, an actual
	police force on criminality.
	So we had a lot of things going on at the same time that really didn't help out middle class America a whole lot.
	And then I guess it became, as you said, a battle for territory, and what they did control they were selling in, and what they wanted to control they fought for.
	Yeah, and you know, the downside of that is the people that lived in all these communities are the losers.
	That's their battlefield.
	So, if you had a free hand, and they said, tell us what to do about gangs, what approach would you take?
	How?
	Well, if we're not talking about the constitutionality of it all, I would probably say you'd have to pass some type of a law about the collection of people at certain locations or times, the dress that they could wear.
	I think the first thing is, where it all buds and starts is schools.
	I think all public schools should have a dress code.
	That dress code should be one type of shirt.
	One type of pants, one type of skirt, one type of blouse.
	You eliminate the individuality there.
	It sounds very institutionalized, but that eliminates, really, a recruitment of gangs.
	It also breaks down their identity.
	Well, there was almost an attempt to do a lot of that with the RICO laws, wasn't there?
	Well, there was an attempt, but, you know, the same people They don't want their kids involved in gangs or screaming the loudest about, you know, we're not going to have our kids do this or that, and you can't do this or that.
	You know, you have to give in a little bit if you want to get something out.
	You know, we've already got a problem.
	We've got to do something to just argue back and forth and to do nothing and to try nothing.
	All right.
	You said that what was driving the gangs now was the narcotics crack, probably, mostly.
	But a lot of other narcotics.
	A lot of people say, legalize narcotics.
	End the drug war.
	You put the gangs out of business.
	Oh, you just put them right back in.
	How so?
	Well, not only the gangs, but you just gave an injection into organized crime.
	I'll just give you an example.
	You have a dealer.
	Let's call him a mid-level.
	He deals in pure ounces of cocaine.
	Today, August 4th, we have the laws that we have right now and it's illegal.
	And that ounce, let's just say for all intents and purposes, that pure ounce costs him $1,200.
	You legalize it, that pure ounce now becomes cheaper.
	A lot cheaper.
	Now he's dealing in pounds because now he can afford it.
	Now you have drugs that are controlled by the state.
	When they're controlled by the state, there's going to be a lax attitude towards the enforcement, even though the illegal sale.
	And not only that, if you look at all the people that maybe are standing on the fence, and the only thing that keeps them from using narcotics is the law, or the way society looks at them.
	A lot of those people are going to jump in, and it's legal now.
	Yeah, a lot of those Saturday Night Parties are going to turn into cocaine fests.
	You know, it's interesting.
	I've never been a narcotics user.
	I've never even smoked a cigarette.
	I've just never been interested in it.
	The one thing, when you get in arguments with people, or discussions, I don't care however you cut it, they say, well, alcohol.
	Well, you know, when I go in to a Mexican restaurant and have some chips and salsa and I have a beer with lunch.
	I don't go into that place to get drunk.
	I have a beer and I walk out.
	When you use a narcotic, I haven't found one person yet that has told me that it really tastes good or they really love the smell or it really makes them feel nice and full.
	One of these things is they are after the high.
	So you have a lot of people out there that are going to be doing things quite legally That they're probably not responsible enough to be doing.
	What about pot?
	Do you separate that at all?
	No, I don't because it's the same thing.
	If somebody is going to tell me to eat this stuff and it's really a good meal, they're doing it to get high.
	I don't care how well they can operate themselves or a car or anything else.
	It's still detracting from productivity, responsibility.
	Common sense.
	And we really don't need it.
	We've got enough with alcohol.
	It's really unfortunate, but if you want to compare alcohol to drugs and you say, well, why not legalize drugs?
	You eliminate the alcohol.
	You don't legalize the drugs.
	So you might even be in favor of another prohibition on alcohol.
	Well, we know that didn't work.
	And I'm not in favor of that.
	I'm just using it as an example.
	It's not going to work.
	It's the old thing where you have a group of people of 20 people that get a certain privilege in a corporation, and then 250 people see this privilege and go to management and say, we want this privilege because they have it.
	Well, they're going to take it away from the 20 before they give it to the 250.
	That's common sense.
	You were right.
	Prohibition didn't work, and so far as I can see, right now, the drug war is not working.
	Why?
	First, we're outnumbered.
	We're out-moneyed and we're out-gunned.
	That's a big problem.
	There's so much money in drug trafficking and now heroin is making a comeback.
	Yeah, it is.
	Why?
	Why is it making a comeback?
	You know, it's a good question.
	Do you have an answer?
	We ignored it.
	I can remember in the 70's we used to go down every day.
	We'd work in uniform.
	We'd grab a hype, a heroin addict.
	Take him to the station, see if he's under the influence, get information from him, write search warrants, do a dope pad or do a burglar's pad or something.
	Well now they ignore heroin because they made it a misdemeanor.
	Heroin is a misdemeanor?
	Internal possession under which usage where you're under the influence is a misdemeanor in Los Angeles.
	So that is the open door to narcotics enforcement.
	I take it you would prefer the laws, for example, in my state.
	I'm in Nevada.
	Possession of marijuana is a felony.
	Well, you know, yes.
	And I'll tell you why.
	Because it's a great enforcement tool.
	And by that I mean you bring somebody in with a small percentage of marijuana.
	You might be able to work that suspect to either give you a dealer of cocaine, some type of a robber, a burglar, a receiver of stolen property.
	You could really work it into a lot of things.
	You bring somebody in where marijuana is a misdemeanor and mostly, almost always, a ticketable offense under a certain amount, you don't have a hook.
	You just break down a lot of the ability of the policemen to work the streets.
	A lot of people criticize deals.
	You know, as you just said, you've got the leverage.
	You've got somebody, you've got a felony, holding it over their head.
	They're going to give you information and they know they're going away for a while.
	But a lot of people criticize those deals.
	You get them in there and you literally cut them loose for giving you the next guy in the food chain.
	Well, yes and no.
	Not necessarily.
	I'll give you an example.
	If he's on probation or parole, he cannot do a deal with you.
	He gets booked.
	If he's not on probation or parole, you can't make any promises so you can tell him.
	I'm going to book you because you're under the influence.
	I'll talk to the DA.
	But you give up one person or else I'm not going to say anything to the DA.
	There are a lot of other ways to work a guy too.
	You take them off the street and they've got something that is a decision of yours.
	A decision that you don't have to book somebody.
	You make that decision and you make that decision because of getting a bigger fish.
	It's not really a deal.
	That's work in the streets and it's networking.
	It's the same thing as a salesman does.
	You're after the bigger fish because that's the one that's trickling down all the dope.
	All right.
	Hang tight, Mark.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	You've got to rest.
	I shall do the same, and stations will do whatever it is they do during this period of time.
	I'm not exactly sure about that.
	My guest is a retired detective, Mark Furman, and we've got a lot to talk about with him, including what it's like to be a cop.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
	I'm going to be talking about the first part of the series, which is called The Greatest War.
	And I'm going to be talking about the first part of the series, which is called The Greatest War.
	you you
	Call Art Bell toll free.
	West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-825-5033.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	That's who we are.
	Good morning everybody.
	Great to be here.
	1-800-618-8255. East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033. 1-800-825-5033.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	That's who we are. Good morning everybody. Great to be here.
	Mark Furman is my guest.
	Yes, the Mark Furman, retired detective.
	His book, Murder in Brentwood.
	We'll get around to that.
	I want to talk to you for a second about bad weather.
	You know, we've got bad weather, actually, here.
	Not just coming, but here.
	Thankfully here, it dried up this day, but more on the way.
	When the weather gets bad, as you well know it's going to, you're going to want, among other things, you know, like water and food, The basics.
	Flashlights.
	You're going to want information and the Big Jim Preplay Radio can sure deliver that.
	This was designed by a fellow named Trevor Bayless in Britain.
	It's manufactured in South Africa and I must tell you it is built like a tank.
	It's a full-size portable radio with a crank on the side.
	Crank!
	It uses human power.
	Doesn't plug into the wall.
	Does not Use batteries.
	As a matter of fact, there's no place to even put batteries.
	You turn the crank for 30 seconds, and this radio plays at full room volume, AM, FM, or shortwave, for 30 minutes.
	So obviously, when the power goes out, you're not out of business, if you have a Baygen.
	And a Baygen should be in every home in America, the way it's shaping up weather-wise.
	They're just $119.95.
	We've begun to call them the El Nino Radio.
	The number to call in the morning at 730 to get one of these for your very own is 1-800-522-8863.
	The C. Crane Company at 1-800-522-8863.
	And the other item, too much weight.
	The C. Crane Company at 1-800-522-8863.
	And the other item, too much weight.
	I'll tell you what, walk down the street, any street in America, look at Americans.
	We eat too well.
	We eat too much of the wrong thing.
	And boy, there's a lot of overweight people out there.
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	So they'd go broke very quickly if what they said wasn't true.
	Can't get it in stores, and your money comes back if it doesn't work.
	Call 1-800-557-4627.
	That's 1-800-557-4627.
	Back now to Idaho and Mark Furman.
	five five seven four six two seven that's one eight hundred
	five five seven four six two seven back now
	to idaho and mark for men uh...
	welcome back well thanks for
	uh...
	Thank you.
	How did you last 20 years, Mark?
	Carefully.
	It's a good question, really.
	Yes, it really is.
	I spent a year dispatching Monterey Seaside as a police dispatcher.
	I had a lot of friends who were cops.
	The ones that last have to be a very different breed.
	Yeah, I think you have to be somewhat of a, not a chameleon, but you have to adapt.
	It's almost like it's a metamorphosis.
	Adapt with growing older in society and getting sicker because you've seen more of it than you realize.
	One, you keep going out there and trying your hardest and doing good jobs and catching bad guys and there are five more bad guys for every one.
	You see the real bad part of mankind and you want to see the good part.
	You're in really two extremes.
	Cops are great guys for parties.
	They're great guys for vacations.
	They're great guys to be around.
	There's been a change.
	When you first went in, in 1975, and even earlier than that, if a guy was going to down on his luck or something, he was going to go knock over a 7-Eleven or a little store.
	takes its toll there's been a change when you first went in in seventy five
	uh... and even earlier than that you know if a guy was gonna down on his luck or something
	he was gonna go knock over a seven eleven or a little store
	i tell the story a lot because it's true he'd walk in stick a gun in the guy's face say give me your
	cash The guy would give him the cash, shaking.
	And he'd back out of the store, get in a getaway car, and take off.
	Today, it doesn't happen quite that way.
	He goes in with a gun, points it at the guy, demands the cash, gets the cash, and as an afterthought, puts a bullet in the guy's head.
	Life has cheapened.
	It has cheapened.
	And I'm not going to blame it on anything, but I'm going to tell you the one thing that I see.
	In 20 years on the police department, from 1975 to 1995, I think that I can safely say to date I saw the biggest change in law enforcement, at least in the city of Los Angeles.
	A lot of things contributed to that, and I think one is the media.
	No, the movie The Wild Bunch, I think that came out in about 1975, 1976, 1977, was considered
	a very violent movie.
	In fact, in many theaters the complete movie was not shown.
	There was an edited or a cut version.
	Just recently in the last few years you get to see that in video.
	That movie could almost be shown on regular TV nowadays.
	I think special effects, they are not special effects anymore.
	It's even better than a real murder.
	From a dramatic point of view, I've seen a lot of people die and I've seen a lot of people shot.
	I'm going to tell you right now that it's more dramatic, more exciting, more visual on a good movie, even on a good TV series, than it really is in real life.
	I think you're right.
	it in either one or two ways, either through the perspective of the suspect or the emotional
	side of law enforcement or the family. So you have a numbness that is put out into this
	country where we are used to murder. I think you are right.
	The other side of the coin is you have people watching this that really can't grasp the message of what is going on.
	All they see is the violence.
	When you came out of the academy, most cops, when they come out of the academy, they're ready to save the world.
	They figure they can make a really serious difference.
	And I think the crisis point comes for them when they realize that they can't change the whole world.
	And they're doing a job day to day to day, and that's when a lot of them decide, that's it, I'm out of here.
	How do you get through that I think I came in with the thought that I wanted to be a really good street policeman, but I didn't have the idea about saving the world.
	I'm not sure that the whole world deserved that.
	I really took everything I did one by one.
	Of course, when you work gangs, you're assigned certain groups of gangs.
	Then it's more of a total thing.
	Just work in the street.
	Every day you come to work, it's a new day.
	I took everything on an individual basis.
	If I left that night having helped a victim, caught a suspect, or taken a guy off the street that would victimize somebody the next day, I had a very good feeling.
	Inside, I did a good day's work.
	I did good police work.
	It was above and beyond.
	I went away thinking, well, tomorrow is another day.
	Let's try to duplicate that.
	I think the tough part comes when you realize that the guys working the street trying to catch bad guys.
	Catch-22 is when you realize that the number one thought on most police departments is the way they appear, the administration, the politics, silly programs, squeaky wheels.
	It's not catching the bad guys.
	It's how do we look.
	That's a very demeaning and disheartening feeling to know that sometimes your captains and commanders are more Here's a problem I had.
	They're more in tune to chamber of commerce luncheons than they are my guys really catching
	the guys out on the street they should be.
	Here's a problem I had.
	When I was dispatching, we were in a 911 system and I had a whole bank of phone lines and
	I had X number of patrol cars that I was keeping track of and fire as well.
	We had a great deal of responsibility in Monterey.
	There was a supervisor, but pretty much, you took a call, you followed it through, you decided the response, you dispatched the response, and you carried it through to the end.
	Now, there were a lot of life and death kind of things that happened when I was there, and what I found was, when it didn't work out right, I whipped myself.
	I would take it home with me.
	Every single night, And some nights more than others, I'd take it home with me and I couldn't put it to rest when I got home.
	How did you do that?
	Well, you know, the first few years, I worked in 77th Division my first couple of years, which is in Dead Center and Watts.
	The caliber of policemen there were the best in the city.
	They had the most crime and they also had the most crime reduction.
	So I learned from those policemen how to be a good policeman and they had probably the
	best sense of humor that I have seen on the department since that day.
	I don't mean making fun of people, I mean within us.
	They were a fun loving group of guys.
	They were friends.
	They spent time off duty together.
	They went camping with their families.
	The guys went, it was a very cohesive, productive division of time.
	It's hard to say that you don't take it home but I think I was so darn busy the first three
	or four or five years that I think it stayed inside of me.
	I wasn't trying to get rid of it, but it was there.
	You just don't realize it.
	I think that's the real problem.
	You don't recognize there's a problem because you're too busy.
	A lot of people go, too busy doing what?
	You only work eight or ten hours.
	You always work overtime and then if you work nights and you make a lot of arrests that means every weekday you're in court.
	And your first three or four years in the job you don't have weekends off.
	You're working weekends.
	That means you have maybe a Monday and Tuesday off or a Tuesday and Wednesday off.
	You're in court and then you go home at night but you're working the next night.
	So you in essence never have a day off.
	So that builds up, but you're young.
	So you feel you can handle it.
	You blow it off.
	You're macho.
	You know, I can do anything.
	I'll get through it.
	I'm indestructible.
	And it does catch up.
	I think most cops, I had it.
	A lot of cops have it.
	About seven or eight years, the batteries start running down.
	And that's also about the time when you're age.
	You're not a kid anymore.
	And you start realizing things about your chances of not only getting hurt but being killed.
	Just exactly what is going on around you.
	You're part of it but you don't seem to be able to fill the ocean with sand no matter how much you shovel in there.
	I think all those things combine to make a feeling where Maybe you should have taken it home and realized it right from the beginning and got rid of it little by little instead of just waiting until it kind of piles up.
	One of the following happens usually at that point.
	Either you quit, you have a heart attack and die, you get divorced or you commit suicide.
	I got divorced twice.
	I almost left the job.
	But I hung in there.
	I worked out my personal life.
	I realized a lot of things about myself.
	The one thing that I realized about myself was that I was a good cop.
	That's what I know.
	That's what I enjoy.
	So I worked everything else around it.
	You just try to do what you can.
	Yes, some guys do leave and I know quite a few of them that do.
	I still have been in touch with a few that have and they all regretted it.
	So I hung in there, and I had some of the greatest years of my life.
	You mentioned sense of humor, and you're right.
	Cops really have a good sense of humor, albeit very perverted, but good.
	Inside, I remember, I worked the same shift I'm on right now, graveyards.
	And on graveyards, you're stuck a lot of times, a lot of time, and maybe not On some nights, a whole lot going on.
	I mean, it's either very quiet or you're pumping a lot of adrenaline, more than you want to, one or the other.
	But when you've got a lot of time on your hands, a lot of strange things happen.
	I remember one cop stuffing some fireworks up into the back of the tailpipe of another, taping them on there.
	They get hot enough, they start going off.
	No, they don't do that.
	No, they don't do that.
	I remember mace on the inside of motorcycle helmets.
	Oh, yeah.
	Visors.
	That's a good one.
	All that kind of stuff.
	On and on and on and on.
	Did you see a lot of that in 20 years?
	Oh, yeah.
	A lot of fun.
	There's never a dull moment.
	I'll give you a couple of examples.
	When I was working gangs, we had...
	We had three gang members that were down.
	They were shot and killed.
	They were shot in the back, right by a road.
	Of course, we got there and I was in a suit.
	I walked up to the scene.
	Of course, the media, they run up and they throw a mini-cam in my face.
	What happened here?
	Worst case of suicide I ever saw.
	That's the kind of sense of humor that you've got to have.
	It's protective, huh?
	Oh, yeah.
	I saw a friend of mine, a motor officer, he was running radar on this road by the beach.
	I passed him and he didn't see I had my girlfriend's car.
	I saw him and I said, I'm going to be late for work.
	I can't help it.
	So I turn around and I go about 80 miles an hour down the road.
	And I see him jump on the bike and he's scrambling around throwing his radar guns and I just pull over.
	He comes up and he looks at me and he goes, oh damn, why'd you do this to me?
	This is what cops do to each other.
	It's the same thing in the fire department.
	It's the same thing in bartenders.
	It's the same thing in insurance salesmen.
	They all have their way, their little sense of humor that only they know.
	Yeah, and a lot of people criticize that, but it does go on.
	Again, I've got one for you.
	As a dispatcher, I used to drive back to Castroville every night from Monterey, and I'm pretty heavy-footed myself.
	Anyway, I got stopped, and I was being a nice guy.
	I just went through the routine.
	He wrote up the ticket, and I showed him my license.
	All of a sudden he recognized my name and started all sorts of invective against me.
	And he said, are you out of your mind letting me write this ticket?
	Why did you do that?
	I'm not doing that.
	Do you realize your boss determines my workload?
	Get out of here and don't ever do it again.
	Yep.
	Been there.
	You're such a good career.
	To end in such a difficult way for you, we'll get to that, but before we do, I want to ask you about the New York thing.
	The plunger business.
	The Haitian.
	Johnny Cochran, you know, has taken this one up.
	Fifty-three million dollars, I think, may be involved, or more, I don't know.
	Johnny who?
	Jumped right on that one, I think.
	Anyway, big deal in New York.
	How do you react to that?
	Well, first I'll say, of course Johnny Cochran did it.
	He knows that Johnny Cochran will make this only a racial issue.
	He'll make it such a racial issue that they'll never want to go to trial.
	He throws his hat in the ring, throws a couple of press conferences and makes himself a cool five to ten million dollars because they're going to settle out of court.
	They'd never want this to go to trial.
	I wouldn't think so.
	That's well-placed theatrics on Johnny's part.
	As far as the incident, I don't know collectively enough about it to really make a real intelligent judgment.
	From what I know, it is one of the most unbelievable things I've ever heard.
	Not unbelievable it didn't happen, just I'm almost in shock at the allegations.
	So without more information, it's hard to comment, but if it did happen as described, can you imagine that?
	How does that happen?
	That's a depravity with an individual.
	It doesn't have to do with being a policeman.
	If this happened the way it was supposedly described and all of those things are in place, I feel very bad that it did and somebody was a policeman that did it.
	But he was not a policeman when he did it, if you know what I mean.
	This was something that was a deep-seated rage or something.
	I don't even know.
	I wish I could say something that would sound very intelligent and explain how somebody could go from an arrest to basically raping somebody with a plunger.
	I can't imagine it, I guess, and I would hope it would not be, but it appears by all evidence
	that I've heard that it did.
	Thin Blue Line was a really good title.
	It is a really thin line, and there really are bad cops, and there really is a thing
	among cops that, to a pretty good degree, they'll protect each other.
	There's absolutely no question about it.
	I mean, they'll cover for each other in the court of silence.
	It's real.
	You know what's funny about it is?
	There is no such thing, and I'll tell you why.
	Because if there's a code of silence on the police department, then every mother that goes to court and testifies and gives her son an alibi, that's a code of silence.
	The neighbor that looks out the window and won't talk to the police, that's a code of silence, even though their relatives are the victims of those very suspects.
	That's true.
	You have a code of silence in corporations.
	They look at sexual harassment, embezzlement.
	They watch employees stealing out of the till.
	Is this not the code of silence?
	It is.
	We're talking about a human emotion.
	They don't want to get involved and drive themselves into somebody else's mud.
	That's what people call a code of silence.
	I think these cops, I think at the 70th precinct in the Bronx, isn't it?
	Right.
	You know, a lot of these guys are going, no matter what they know about this, they go, I don't want anything to do with this.
	I'm not going to comment one way or another.
	They're going to say one thing.
	I didn't arrest this guy.
	I didn't see anything.
	I didn't participate.
	I don't want anything to do with it.
	That's not the code of silence.
	It's everybody going, I don't want the heartache.
	I hear you.
	All right.
	Hold on.
	We're at the top of the hour.
	Rest, grab a cup of coffee, do whatever you want to do, and we'll be back.
	Mark Furman, retired.
	Detective Mark Furman is my guest.
	Not so retired, pretty active actually.
	And we're talking about being a cop, and yes, we'll talk about, of course, the Simpson trial, his book, Murder in Brentwood, and he's got another one coming.
	We'll have to find out about that.
	I'm Mark Bell and this is Coast to Coast AM.
	I keep the line, can't say goodbye.
	Hartbell is taking calls on the wildcard line.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	702-727-1222.
	First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Good morning.
	My guest is Mark Furman.
	Retired Detective Mark Furman.
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	That's the important part.
	That means you can take the tape they supply with it, which is a very high quality, 110 minute tape, which would normally get what?
	Do the math.
	55 minutes on each side.
	But because this recorder runs at quarter speed, instead it gets four hours on one side.
	Just about four hours.
	Now, it's got all kinds of features you're going to want.
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	So will you.
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	Alright, back now to my guest, retired detective Mark Furman, who's now in Idaho.
	Mark, back on the air again.
	I guess so.
	Tell me, if you would, about your first book, Murder in Brentwood, an obvious book, one of many, many, many, many written about the subject.
	What made you decide to write it and tell me about it?
	Well, you know, when I retired, I knew quite a bit of what happened and didn't happen in this case, and I kept it very close to the vest.
	I kept it to myself, even my good friends.
	When this book finally came out, I said, how did you not tell us?
	My response was, you didn't need to know.
	But with the political climate, I can take so much heat and I did.
	I went to Idaho and I'm working and I'm retired and I'm leaving everybody alone.
	I'm not saying a thing.
	Is everybody leaving you alone?
	Yes, they are.
	Of course you had reporters and you had people that came to town.
	They wanted things, but I wasn't saying anything to anybody.
	When they indicted me for something that wasn't even a crime, that to me was the last straw.
	I did my part.
	I went away.
	I was out of sight.
	I was out of mind.
	I was not going on TV.
	I was not going on radio.
	I was doing nothing.
	I had so many things and some things I still haven't.
	I haven't told.
	But when they did that, I said, that's it.
	What did they indict you for?
	Perjury.
	Perjury.
	That's right.
	And now, there was not long ago some sort of, I remember the press on it, some sort of pushing incident where you allegedly shoved some kind of reporter or something.
	Oh, in Spokane.
	That was in January of 1995 when I came to Sandpoint to buy a house.
	Right.
	A reporter came up to me and I was sitting in the airport and he identified himself and he said, I'm a reporter from the Spokesman Review and I'd like to ask you a few questions.
	I was nice to him and I said, I'd rather not.
	My wife is with me and my wife is trying to signal me.
	He's got a tape recorder underneath his notepad.
	I think she whispered to me, but I can't hear very well out of my right ear, so I don't know if she was saying it or just motioning.
	But there was nothing said that bothered me.
	I was trying to be nice.
	I gave him somewhat of an interview basically saying, you know, what news is it of me buying a house in Sandpoint?
	I mean, this is really silly.
	And he said, well, would you mind if we took a picture?
	And I said, yes, I would.
	Don't want an answer, don't ask.
	And if you're not going to respect the answer, why did you ask?
	So this photographer, lo and behold, we went up to the waiting area for a plane and the photographer was on the ramp standing in front of us taking pictures.
	I was very protective over my family.
	I'm in the public eye, not by choice, but just by the very nature of what happened.
	And she, I told her to leave, and he just kept clicking photos.
	I walked by and said, OK, you've got your photos.
	Goodbye.
	Well, he proceeded, he continued to do this.
	Every place I stepped, he was there.
	The long and the short of it, I said, just get out of my way.
	And I went to move him out of my way.
	That's all I did was to put my arm on his shoulder and move him to the side, and he collapsed.
	I mean, he just went down like he was shot.
	Uh-huh.
	It was an obvious setup.
	My wife saw another camera off to the side, somebody else photoing.
	I mean, it was obvious.
	An old expression, I think, whiplash equals quick cash.
	There you go.
	But, you know, no matter what it was, I think it shows the pathetic nature sometimes of the media to get a non-story.
	And if they have a non-story, they're going to get a story regardless.
	They're not going to waste their time.
	I found the same thing.
	Exactly the same thing.
	When there was a suicide at Rancho Santa Fe, the media blamed me.
	It was hell on wheels for a long time around here.
	Because you didn't have a story with the suicide?
	They wanted to connect me to it.
	Once they found out, for a long time it was, we're going to tell our story this way.
	This is the way we've decided to tell it.
	And no matter how many facts I would give them otherwise, they wouldn't print the facts.
	They would print what was cool.
	You know, here was 39 people who probably committed suicide because Art Bell had a show about some companion object way back when, in November, with regard to Comet Hale-Bopp.
	And so I had the press everywhere.
	I mean, they were just relentless.
	And now, of course, we have this Princess Di thing.
	Now I guess you can relate a little bit to Being chased by the press, it's pretty awful, isn't it?
	That was the least intrusive incident of three years, if you can believe that.
	Oh, I can believe it.
	You know, it's funny, as soon as I wrote the book, and getting back to that just for a second, and I'll be able to tell you a little bit, as soon as I went on Diane Sawyer, October 3rd, we I taped the first primetime and it aired, I believe, the 7th.
	After I did the primetime, the whole media's attitude changed because I had broken my silence.
	Now the exclusive was out the window.
	Diane Sawyer owned it.
	So now we're all playing catch up.
	Now we have to show Mark some respect or he won't say anything to us because now we know he will speak.
	So it's kind of odd, and I don't know if I'm putting the thought process in their head, but the interesting part is there is a complete evolution from that point until the next prime time, until people started reading the book, and then they realized that they were duped by a lot of people in this case.
	You said there were a lot of books written, and I'll agree.
	Unfortunately, I had to read all of them.
	But I will tell you one thing about them.
	There are three kinds of authors.
	There's the authors that sat in the courtroom and really know nothing about the inner workings of the case or listen to only people's view of the case.
	You had the people that had to defend a man that was clearly guilty of a double homicide, that had to make up any fantasy they could.
	No matter what publishers wanted, they gave them a fantasy and a defense.
	They had to write those books.
	You had a few people in the prosecution that had to cover some bases.
	They had to cover some mistakes.
	They had to make some excuses, knowing full well my book was coming out.
	My book came out.
	I had no reason to change one thing that happened in this case, because I didn't do anything wrong in the investigation.
	Anything that I did wrong, or people believed I did wrong, or I felt bad for, I was very up front.
	That's a very disarming book for most of these people.
	They can't beat me up anymore.
	I understand.
	The very same thing happened with me.
	Finally, when the facts got out, it all began to change.
	There was a turning point, thankfully, when the truth actually got out.
	And I'm sure that was true with you, too.
	When this whole thing started, the very first moment you entered this case, did you know what you were into?
	Well, you know, I really didn't.
	You know, I've been around a lot of celebrities.
	I used to bodyguard celebrities for years, back to 1978.
	I've taught a lot of celebrities and famous people and big people how to shoot.
	That was one of the things I did.
	I used to be on the pistol team at LAPD and I was an instructor at the academy for a period when we were transitioning to 9mm.
	I've had contact with celebrities, not only on the department but off.
	When we went there, that wasn't a big shock for me and that wasn't a big hook for me.
	It really didn't make any difference to what I did or what I thought.
	Only after I was at the prelim and the city and the world started making a big deal about a professional testimony I gave, something I had been doing for 18 years, nobody seemed to give any attention before that.
	All of a sudden, the same thing I had been doing for 18 years was now something special.
	But when I realized that I did well, I embarrassed Professor Ullman.
	Motion to suppress evidence.
	I, in fact, put a focus on myself.
	They realized who made decisions, who put things together, who found what, who interviewed who, and that was me.
	I knew probably the day after, two days after that prelim that I was done no matter what they had to do to me.
	They were going to start a scandal with me regardless.
	I had to go.
	That was the number one thing.
	I had to go.
	Did you remember then that there was history that they could get you with?
	You mean the screenplay?
	Yeah, sure.
	I didn't even think about that.
	A lot of people go, how could you not think about this?
	Well, the first thing is that it was mischaracterized in so much as the time frame.
	Almost the whole tape.
	All the tapes they were talking about were done in 85, 86.
	The only thing that was done after that point was luncheon meetings with people interested in the project, a producer that works at a major studio, interested parties, those types of people.
	So you're talking about 85 and 86 and we're doing a fictional screenplay.
	Why should I be worried about this?
	It's not something I would hold guilt for.
	It's not like a true life experience or something that actually occurred.
	It's not like I'm trying to cover up a hype.
	I was very up front when people said, you know, are you working on something?
	Are you doing something?
	I said, yeah, I'm trying to make a screenplay and it's kind of fun.
	But there was never anything that I held.
	Usually at the beginning of something like this, the prosecuting attorney will sit you down and say, look, is there anything, anything in your background, they knew this case was going to go racial, they had to know, is there anything in your background that's going to come out that we need to know about?
	There must have been a moment like that.
	You know, I never, I think, you don't know there was never a moment like that, I think, I was attacked that question was asked.
	Is there anything else?
	I can't think of anything.
	But when the tapes came out, probably, maybe, when I heard that they were looking for them and the tapes were for sale and all these things, it was the first time I ever even gave them a thought.
	I think that's something that people should really think about for a second.
	If you do something very innocent ten years prior, that because of circumstance you could never even imagine, and being edited and carefully played in the media and in the courtroom in a certain way, it can seem very damaging.
	So I never thought about that.
	If I would have, of course I would have told the prosecutor, but I never even gave it a thought.
	That never crossed my mind.
	Was that the defense attorney's crowning moment?
	In other words, I guess I'm asking you in a way, what happened to you?
	Is that what lost the case?
	Oh, absolutely not.
	That case was lost in the first 12 hours.
	I just didn't know it.
	You know, I go into this whole thing from the beginning to the end in my book, and I don't lay out one thing in there I cannot absolutely 100% prove.
	Phil Van Adder routed that case from the first time that he stood in that street and took
	the case from Ron Phillips, Brad Roberts and myself and we handed him my notes.
	That was the kiss of death right there.
	How much evidence did he leave?
	He didn't read my notes.
	He left a bloody fingerprint on the rear gate.
	He left an open and empty knife box in Simpson's bathroom.
	He left sweats in the washing machine.
	There is evidence he left everywhere.
	I remember the motion to suppress regarding the initial entry.
	Was there really enough evidence to go jumping over?
	Oh, absolutely.
	I'll give it to you the other way.
	We come from a double homicide scene.
	We have a female we think is Nicole Brown Simpson.
	I was the only one that wouldn't absolutely say it was, because it's unimportant if it absolutely is.
	We have a double homicide.
	We cannot explain who this male is here either.
	So, if you can't explain who he is, you really can't put much together with the crime scene.
	He could have been a suspect.
	We do not know.
	Sure.
	So, what we have is we have two dead people.
	We have a blood trail leading away from the bodies.
	We have a bloody fingerprint on the gate.
	It's not a dog that left it there.
	It's a human.
	We have blood drops that stop in the driveway, a logical place, excuse me, the alleyway, a logical place for a vehicle.
	We go up to the Simpson Mansion, I think quite improperly.
	I would not have done it.
	Lang and Van Adder were now in charge.
	They said, can you get us up there?
	I checked the address with a patrol officer.
	I said, yeah, I can get you up there.
	Why would you not have done it?
	Because it's unnecessary.
	I really don't care if an ex-husband ever gets notified.
	He may be a suspect, but as far as notifying him and breaking up my crime scene investigation at that early stage, I don't care.
	Especially a celebrity.
	Where's he gonna go?
	Well, I guess, I remember the question was asked, was he, at that moment, a suspect?
	Well, not in my mind.
	In Van Atter's?
	You know, he didn't relay it to me.
	Of course, we don't know if they wanted to go up there just to say that they're the ones that notified him that his ex-wife was dead.
	I found it very odd that the Brown family learns that Nicole's dead on the phone, yet O.J.
	Simpson, an ex-husband, is going to be notified in person.
	This is clearly because he was a celebrity and he was wealthy.
	That's what I don't agree with.
	Nonetheless, I was asked to take him up there and I did.
	I make observations on a public street of what I believe is blood on the Bronco.
	I make observations that this is in fact O.J. Simpson's Bronco.
	I see other things in the back, a shovel, a piece of plastic.
	Now you connect these few things here.
	They have a double homicide with blood drops leading the way.
	Obviously somebody left.
	They got into a vehicle.
	Here we have a vehicle that is parked somewhat askew.
	It has a drop of blood on the driver's side by the door handle where a person with a left hand would open the door.
	The print on the knob was on the left side of the gate.
	Most probably a left handed operation.
	You have the drops stopping.
	That means they got into a car.
	You combine that with connecting that car to OJ Simpson.
	Nobody answers the door.
	Lights are on upstairs.
	Lights are on downstairs.
	Nobody answers the door.
	Now, at this time, you don't have to be a suspect to make an entry.
	I mean, you don't have to suspect that there's a suspect.
	You have an obligation for public safety to make sure nothing's wrong with someone inside.
	Do we have a situation where OJ Simpson Was actually fending off a suspect and she killed the male and he got away and went home to call 911 and never made it that far?
	Now, how bad do you think we would have been scrutinized once we saw this evidence?
	We saw this connection to two crime scenes.
	In other words, what became another crime scene, but connection between two residences.
	And he is related to the possible victim, even by ex-marriage.
	Can you see what would have happened if he would have been dead in there or any person would have been injured or dead in there and we were standing right there and we walked away?
	So it would have been derelict not to go in?
	I'm going to tell you there would have been no attorney in the world.
	I mean, the city of Los Angeles would have settled for $50 million because there was Ample probable cause.
	In fact, it's overwhelming that you have to do something.
	You do have to make contact and establish there's nothing wrong.
	And that's exactly why we entered.
	That's exactly what we attempted to do.
	Hold it right there.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	Relax.
	Grab some more coffee and we'll be right back.
	My guest is retired detective Mark Furman.
	I'm Art Bell and this is Coast to Coast AF.
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	top of the morning everybody wherever you are we will begin taking calls here in a moment
	so if you have a question for retired detective Mark Furman now would be a good time
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	Alright, back now to Detective Mark Furman in Idaho.
	Detective, welcome back.
	Thank you.
	You know, I'd kind of like to let everybody begin to ask questions of you.
	I'm sure you've done this a lot of times before, have you not?
	Oh yeah.
	Just two things.
	TV coverage in courtrooms?
	Good idea, bad idea?
	Bad idea.
	Bad idea.
	Well, it seems like a lot of judges have taken that cue since that trial because there hasn't been a lot of TV coverage of big, high-profile trials.
	You know what bothers me?
	The judges are taking the same profile here as we are about the tragedy that happened to Princess Diana and the paparazzi.
	We had to have somebody's death.
	To make somebody realize that they were a nuisance.
	And not a nuisance, by and large, every photographer, but the people that actually make themselves obtrusive and aggressive and almost causing assault with their camera, basically.
	The judges, are they trying to say that they saw something good out of letting somebody play to a camera, let defense attorneys give speeches, let people in the courtroom basically become famous.
	It's exactly what they wanted.
	People say, we have a right to know what goes on in our courtrooms.
	Then go to your respective county, city or state courtroom and walk in there.
	It's open for you.
	Go in and see it.
	It was a particularly hard public lesson too.
	dilapidated a lot of faith in the justice system to watch all that unfold.
	What about the judge, Judge Ito?
	Even though the cameras were there, he allowed a lot of that speech fine to go on.
	He didn't have control of that courtroom from the first day.
	You know, I've been in a lot of courtrooms, and I'm not a judge and I'm not an attorney, but I'll tell you one thing.
	I've never seen two things.
	I've never seen attorneys held in contempt of court, especially prosecutors.
	It was a badge of honor in this case.
	And I've never seen a judge let everybody in the courtroom rule his court except for him.
	I think the clerk had a better grasp on what was going on in that room than the judge did.
	What about the prosecution?
	Did they make any fatal mistakes in your opinion?
	Well, you know, I think they did, but, you know, we're talking in hindsight.
	I'd say, you know, if I'm taken back there, I think realizing that the judge was making some horrendous errors in his motions and what he allowed in the courtroom, I think there should have been.
	And I conveyed this then, so I won't say this is hindsight.
	I actually said it then.
	The motion to ask me racial uh... questions in this case was total totally irrelevant
	and once the judge allowed that questioning he overruled himself by the
	way on a friday he told
	the defense that if they cannot show that there was any evidence tampering or
	planning of evidence by monday they are going to be able to
	question then he overruled himself by monday
	so it's interesting so i went to marsha clark once the ruling was in that they
	could appeal it You remember we were talking earlier about Code of Silence?
	Yes.
	If you had a partner, and I think I'm pulling this out of an old... You're making a no-winner here, I can tell.
	Well, no, out of an old Hill Street Blues piece.
	If you had a partner, and your partner ran down kind of a dark alley, After a suspect.
	Suspect turned around.
	Your partner thought he had a gun.
	Thought he saw a gun.
	Pulled and fired and killed the suspect.
	And upon close examination, found out, uh-oh, no gun.
	So he throws one down.
	Now, would your inclination at that point be to cover for him or to go to Internal Affairs?
	Well, I think... It's a hard question, I know.
	Yeah, neither one.
	First thing is, that type of shooting occurs in America quite often.
	Yes.
	And it doesn't happen because somebody's out there trying to kill people.
	It happens because you have two people that are very scared.
	You have two people that are in a life and death situation.
	You bet.
	And everything's made at hundredths of a second, the decision.
	Yep.
	Now, I think in that situation I'd probably say, Pick that up.
	That is the stupidest thing in the world.
	Put it away.
	Yeah, I think I probably have to tell somebody what happened, but I think I'd probably tell them to my partner.
	Hey look, you did nothing wrong.
	You went on instinct.
	This is what you felt.
	Tell the shooting team what you felt, what was going on in your mind.
	You don't need to play these stupid games.
	I've never seen anybody with a throw down gun.
	If I did?
	No, I'm not going along with that.
	Then I just become part and parcel of a homicide because the only logical explanation why somebody would do that is they had the preconceived or the predetermined attitude that they were going to shoot.
	Well, the reason I asked that is because if you knew that there had been a horrible double murder committed But there probably wasn't going to be, you know, you can see as the case develops, investigating, that there probably wasn't going to be enough absolute direct evidence to convict.
	You wouldn't throw down a glove.
	I mean, that is so silly, and I'll tell you why everybody that knows me knows how silly that is.
	When I do a case, I do 110%.
	I do everything I can.
	I cross all the T's, dot all the I's.
	I do all the good police work.
	I'm imaginative.
	I figure out different ways to get evidence.
	Once I do all that, and you have all this evidence and you write it down, it goes to the prosecutor.
	I don't feel any responsibility.
	If the prosecution or jury can't convict because I did my job.
	Now if I didn't do my job then I would feel some responsibility but you can't produce evidence and I'll tell you a reason why.
	Because there's always a way that something doesn't fit if it didn't get there in a natural progression of somebody's actions.
	Everybody goes, oh he could have planted the glove.
	I'm in Dallas, Texas.
	I've got two quick questions.
	I have to glove or any way or any framework at that time that I could is nothing more
	than ignorant beyond belief.
	Alright, let's try a few phone calls and see what we get here.
	First time caller line, good morning.
	You're on the air with Mark Furman.
	Hello Art.
	Hi.
	Where are you?
	I'm in Dallas, Texas.
	Alright.
	I've got two quick questions.
	One for you Art.
	I've been with you for over six months now and I've never heard you comment either way
	on this case.
	And my comment, and my question for you, Mark, is I do believe that there was a bloody fingerprint, but if you and your partner were the only one to have spotted it, why didn't one of you hang around and make sure that a sample was taken or a photograph was taken of this fingerprint, if that is, if having a fingerprint is just like signing his signature to the crime?
	Well the first thing is, if Brad Roberts and I, he was my partner, if we would have kept the case, we would have done exactly that.
	But the case was no longer ours and we were sent different places.
	Brad was sent to the police station initially to interview the people that had found the Akita dog, Nicole's dog.
	So he was away from the scene and I was instructed to take Lang and Van Adder up to the Rockingham Estate.
	Once I was up there, I was instructed to go back down at about 7.15, 7 o'clock, something like that.
	To see if the glove at Bundy was similar to the glove at Rockingham.
	I did that and I returned to Rockingham and I never returned to Bundy that day.
	I understand your question, but I wrote it down in very clear block printing, very legibly, on notes that I saw being handed to Phil Van Adder.
	There was no reason, absolutely none, That there was any possibility that would not be collected or observed.
	I've seen them on different shows and they've just dismissed that fingerprint as a pile of bunk.
	I believe you.
	I don't believe you did anything wrong but they are just blaming everything on you.
	Phil Van Etter and Tom Lang, I read their book.
	Their book is basically covering up every mistake they made.
	Tom Lang wasn't at Rockingham.
	But he handled the Bundy scene.
	He should at least inspect the path of the suspect and inspect that gate.
	We know that he basically told the criminalist to go back there and collect it.
	He didn't observe it.
	You should observe it.
	You should direct every photograph and direct every collection of every piece of evidence so you can testify to it and you make sure it's done properly.
	Tom Lang and Phil Van Etter are I took a polygraph at the end of my media tour on March 17th of this year.
	I answered every question and then some on anything, any possible way.
	Any possible anything.
	Planting the globe.
	Fingerprint.
	Ito's wife.
	Everything.
	I was truthful in all of it.
	Now there is even one better.
	Larry Schiller who wrote American Tragedy is doing a paperback version.
	He asked me for some comments about the civil trial.
	We talked.
	We had a nice conversation several times.
	Just of recent date, Larry Schiller in his paperback has revealed that during the civil trial he got a hold of the Browns attorney, Mr. Kelly, and he interviewed him about the rear gate.
	Mr. Kelly said, Well, we heard Mr. Furman say these things about the locksmith changed the lock the next day, which he did.
	The Brown family wanted those locks changed.
	So on June 14th, those locks were changed and they interviewed the locksmith.
	The locksmith said, yeah, there was a bloody fingerprint on there, but I thought the police already analyzed it and photographed it, so I just threw it away.
	They couldn't introduce that into the civil trial because it would have routed Lang and Van Adder completely.
	They didn't do it, and they went with what they had.
	Why did this case get taken away from you, and what did you feel when it did?
	I mean, you were there.
	You were developing the case in the beginning, and then it just got snapped away.
	Why?
	Why?
	Well, you know, this case, logistically, this has nothing to do with ability.
	Lang and Van Etter were simply on call in a rotation-type basis.
	They were not hand-picked by Robbery Homicide.
	But Robbery Homicide doesn't handle cases on a geographic type of assignment.
	In other words, in West L.A., if there's any murder, we handle it.
	No matter how many there are, we have to handle it.
	Robbery Homicide can pick and choose.
	Not only that, they have about 25 homicide detectives.
	That can work one case, if need be.
	The logistics of this case, just on the onset, if this was Nicole Brown Simpson, even before O.J.
	Simpson was a suspect, would be astronomical, media-wise.
	Just for that fact alone, robbery-homicide took the case on the recommendation of the West Bureau Chief, Chief Frankel.
	Had nothing to do with ability.
	As soon as As far as feelings that I had, of course I wanted to keep the case.
	It would have been a very interesting case, but once I realized that this was probably Nicole Brown Simpson, I knew this was going to be taken away.
	It's just a matter of when.
	So you do your job well up to a point.
	Ron Phillips, my supervisor, offered robbery homicide our services until they had all their detectives in place.
	Brad Roberts and I made observations and found evidence up until You know, late that day.
	I think it's unusual that Roberts, Detective Roberts and myself found all the evidence.
	Lange and Van Adder found none.
	Did you have any particular emotions when you heard that Van Adder and Lange were getting the case?
	In other words, did you have any knowledge about Van Adder and Lange?
	From all the previous years that worried you when you heard they were getting the case?
	No, I didn't even know them.
	You know, I think there's another little thing about not knowing a detective.
	They've been on that long and they're working on robbery homicide.
	I knew quite a few people at robbery homicide, but their name had never come up.
	And my name was well known down there.
	I had been on 20-20, I think almost Two years before, because I was one of the people that really understood and was very successful in investigating carjackings.
	My reputation for robbery and homicide was already well thought of, but their reputation didn't precede them, which in hindsight is kind of odd.
	This is totally off subject, but you said you used to train people how to shoot, how to use a gun.
	Tactically, I presume.
	Well, you know, you start with the basics and then you work up to what their function for wanting to learn is.
	What is your attitude about this new thing, I have it in my state, where you go take a course and you can carry a gun, carry permits for civilians.
	How do you feel about that?
	Well, you know, I'm not sure.
	I think that depends on the individual.
	When I taught somebody how to shoot, no matter how rich they are or how competent or how much experience they had in life, I said, you have to understand one thing.
	If you pull this gun out, you better be ready to use it.
	That's the first thing.
	The second thing is you better be ready to give up everything you own because quite probably you're going to be sued.
	If you pull the trigger and you're wrong, Is there really that much difference between a civilian carrying a gun, responsibility wise, and a cop who's carrying a gun?
	Oh, absolutely.
	So your intent can be transferred and you're liable for every person and every injury that
	occurs.
	And God help you if you shoot a juvenile.
	Is there really that much difference between a civilian carrying a gun responsibility wise
	and a cop who's carrying a gun?
	Oh, absolutely.
	In what way?
	I was told by my instructor that there really wasn't a lot of difference.
	Is he a cop?
	I have been a cop.
	Why isn't he a cop now?
	I don't know.
	What he said was... Good question, though.
	It is, yeah.
	But the basic rules apply.
	It's a good shoot or it's a bad shoot.
	And the same rules apply.
	In what way do they not?
	Well, I'll give you a great example.
	A two-year policeman and an 18-year policeman.
	Who do you think As the most experienced can sense the most things, has the ability to see a situation deteriorating very fast.
	Of course.
	The other thing is who has the experience to know he must react now or he will be shot.
	This is a situation the civilians have absolutely No possibility of encountering unless they're a victim maybe one time, which is one of the precipitating reasons that people want to carry a gun.
	They've been victimized.
	That's right.
	Now, they don't get the training.
	I don't care how much training you get as a civilian, you're not going to get the training that a cop gets in one month working a car.
	Well, that's true, and it's also not ongoing.
	In other words, you take the course and you probably forget most of what you've learned in the first few months or year.
	You don't think like a cop.
	No, that's right.
	You don't walk into a liquor store off duty and make sure you look in before you walk in the door.
	You just walk in the door.
	But if there is a shooting, pretty much the same rules apply, don't they?
	Yeah.
	No?
	A policeman, if he goes into, if he sees on or off duty, if he sees a felony in progress and there's life A life threatening situation and he shoots the suspect with a gun that's holding a store owner at bay.
	Okay.
	And that bullet goes through that suspect and three other civilians.
	His intent can't be transferred.
	In other words, he's not liable for those people because he acted in good faith in the scope of his duties because once he takes action, even off duty, he becomes on duty.
	The city would not be liable civilly?
	Well maybe civilly, but we're talking criminally.
	Alright, no criminal liability then.
	The city will still protect the policemen.
	Of course anybody can sue anybody, but the city will take care of it.
	They'll provide an attorney for the officer to represent him in any action.
	They'll pay for everything.
	You know, it's not something you have to worry about.
	Now take a civilian, same situation.
	You better hope that the guy you're shooting is a suspect.
	You know, when you go in and everybody's got civilian clothes on and somebody's got a gun, it isn't always as it seems.
	What if a policeman goes in there, store owner's being held at gunpoint.
	He, in turn, prones the suspect on the ground and the only thing you see is a guy in plain clothes pointing a gun down at the floor.
	Well, the cop's got the suspect proned down at the floor and you shoot the cop.
	Yep.
	That's true.
	These are things that you just don't key on as a civilian because you're encountering this maybe one time in your life.
	That's absolutely true.
	Mark, hold on.
	We're at the top of the hour.
	We'll be right back.
	Lots and lots of people want to talk to you from the high desert.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	Art Bell is taking calls on the wild card line.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	702-727-1295. That's 702-727-1295. First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222. Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Retired Detective Mark Thurman is my guest, and we're going to try to concentrate more on the telephones.
	We've done two hours of very interesting talk radio.
	A lot of it about being a cop and not so much about the O.J.
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	All right, back now to Mark Furman.
	Mark, I'm going to try to concentrate harder on the phones here, but I do have a couple of questions.
	One comes from, by fax, in Houston, Texas.
	Charlie wants to know, and so do I actually, about what you think with regard to the whole Princess Di thing.
	In other words, Here they've got a Mercedes, reportedly an armored car, going 120 miles an hour in a tunnel, trying, allegedly, to escape these paparazzi folk.
	And I haven't figured it out, unless one of these guys on a motorcycle managed to get in front of this Mercedes and, you know, pop a flashbulb in the face.
	I assume the side windows were probably tinted.
	I can't imagine any other way that a motorcycle First of all, it's hard to imagine it doing 120 miles an hour, or a whole pack of them doing 120 miles an hour.
	Secondly, it's hard to imagine them forcing a big old heavy Mercedes like that off the road, and they wanted to get your take on that.
	What do you think?
	Well, I think we've got a whole bunch of ingredients involved here.
	First, they make motorcycles that can do over 160, and they're a lot cheaper going down and buying a five-year-old truck.
	And there are a lot of European and Japanese motorcycles that do that, so that's not an issue.
	I don't think this is that they were afraid of being photographed.
	I think they did not want the photographers to follow them to their destination.
	I think that's the problem.
	I don't think that they felt that they were going to be photographed in the car.
	What is true from what I hear on the news, we had a driver that did not think he was going to be working any farther.
	He was under the influence of alcohol quite significantly.
	Driving and judgment go out the window.
	The funny thing is, the old thing is, somebody starts running so somebody starts chasing them.
	It's kind of silly, but if they're chasing you, the first Impulse is to run away, not stop.
	So I think there's a whole combination of things that kind of went into an international tragedy.
	I've heard all these arguments about celebrities want this and their whole bread and butter I would say that's true.
	But I think there's just a little bit of respect for privacy.
	It's one thing if they're going out and announcing, we are going to be here, I'll make a press conference, I'll be available for questions.
	There's a big difference between that and a private romantic dinner with somebody that you're dating.
	I think the same thing is over the years we've seen Princess Di's photograph on vacation with her children.
	Very fuzzy photographs taken with hundreds of millimeter lenses.
	They're hiding in the bushes in the middle of the Bahamas or in Monte Carlo.
	Aren't we going just a little bit too far there?
	Are we creating a paranoia about private moments and when you really want to make them private you have to go to the extremes of trying to have A completely armored car, tinted windows, a bodyguard driver and you want to evade these people that continually probe and prod at every movement you make.
	I don't know.
	It's a big mess and I don't think anybody is going to solve it by law and nobody is going to solve it by guilt.
	It happened and I hope some people realize that They probably get what they want if they're just a little more patient and a little more respectful.
	Alright, so it feels like a tragedy.
	I mean, we've got a drunk driver.
	The level at which they declare you legally drunk in Britain is a little different than it is here.
	How much, I think it was .175 or something like that? .23.
	From what I read today.
	Really?
	2-3?
	That's what I read in the paper.
	By our standards here, what does that mean?
	Four times.
	Four times?
	Yeah, .06 in California is called presumptive limits of under the influence of alcohol.
	Now that blood alcohol level combined with your tests that a traffic expert would give you, in other words, on your abilities at driving that vehicle, that could be presumptive limits of driving under the influence.
	I've heard a lot of people say that they think probably most of the people in that car might have been tricked, and that's the reason they didn't notice the driver was.
	At that level of alcohol in the blood, should they not have noticed had they been fully sober and aware that he was not?
	Well, you know, it's great to say, but I think we can all put ourselves having a good time at a dinner.
	I have a bottle of wine and they're being responsible not driving because the driver that is normally there for them and is normally very effective and proficient is responsible because he isn't.
	I'm not sure that's a responsibility to notice those things.
	I'm sure they just called the maitre d'.
	Yeah, just a tragedy.
	There it is.
	We can't stop tragedies.
	Look what we do.
	Every time there's a tragedy we try to make a new law.
	Flight 800, now we're making laws about luggage.
	chase this guy down by themselves and say, here's the keys to the car.
	Yeah, just a tragedy.
	Alright, wild card.
	It is, and we can't stop tragedies.
	I mean, look what we do.
	Every time there's a tragedy, we try to make a new law.
	You know, Flight 800, now we're making laws about luggage.
	Princess Diana dies.
	You know, now we're going to try to make laws about photography.
	That's not going to work here.
	None of it's going to work.
	The justice system is fine.
	Photographers are going to do what they do.
	And if somebody wants to do something to an aircraft, they're going to do it.
	That's a fact.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Mark Furman.
	Hello.
	How you doing today, sir?
	Okay, where are you?
	I'm in Twin Falls, Idaho.
	Okay, not far from Mark.
	No, it's not.
	We're down in the southeastern end, and he's way up in the northern end.
	And to clarify myself, I was born and raised in North Florida, South Georgia.
	I don't think Mr. Furman is a racist by any means.
	And I would have one question for him on that subject.
	It has come to my attention in the very distant past that there was a black man that was charged with a crime.
	And this is the reason I'm saying he's not a racist.
	But Mr. Fuhrman was one of the men that went out of his way to prove that this black man was innocent.
	And I think that in itself stands to say that Mr. Fuhrman is not a racist, regardless if he decided to live up to that point.
	I don't care.
	The fact that he went out of his way to help a black man.
	Alright, well, that brings up a really good topic, Mark.
	Might as well cover this.
	Again, I told you I dispatched in Monterey County, and Seaside was my particular duty.
	And Seaside was a rough town.
	It's a rough town.
	It's got a high percentage black population.
	There's a lot of crime there, really a lot of crime.
	It's a really thin blue line because if you're out there on the street and you're seeing black crime all the time, pretty soon you begin to associate black with crime.
	Now, how do you prevent yourself from going over the line and your natural disgust with the amount of crime going on and who's committing it becoming racism?
	Because that does happen to a lot of cops.
	Well, the caller's memory was very well.
	The name of that suspect was Eric Harris.
	He was a black man and the victim of the homicide was a white man.
	He was shot eight times.
	Everything pointed to Eric Harris.
	I just had this gut feeling after hours of interrogation.
	That he knew, but he wasn't the shooter.
	I went out and I set out to find out who it was.
	I put the word on the street and I got an informant to tell me who the real shooter was.
	I made arrangements to keep it confidential.
	The informant said, I won't testify.
	They witnessed the shooting.
	I went to great lengths to conceal their identity.
	I even had them go up freight elevators at the police station for a polygraph.
	They passed the polygraph.
	I let Eric Harris go.
	I knew who the suspect was.
	The case is still open because by that time, the evidence, during the search warrant of the true suspect, we could not find the evidence.
	He would not break.
	I know the man.
	He was a suspect in a homicide that I turned another homicide detective on to a year and a half before this.
	So this is a good case, and the prosecution knew about this.
	Well, that's what I was about to say.
	Marcia Clark would not present this.
	Why not?
	You know, I did not realize it then, but... I mean, if you're offering evidence on the other side, and that's allowed into the court, which it probably shouldn't have been, then why not allow this?
	Well, she could have.
	It's called a rebuttal case.
	It's rehabilitating a witness, and I had so many people that are civilians and policemen.
	Black, Hispanic, female.
	It doesn't matter what.
	Ex-partners that were willing to testify on my behalf, but yet they did not want to do it because they did not want to take a position of trying to disprove a negative.
	Yeah, but once that had been laid out the way it was, they had an obligation to go after that.
	They had to go after that, it seems to me.
	Yeah, I think you're right.
	I think the obligation started with Marsha Clark trying to apologize for having to prosecute O.J.
	Simpson in her opening statements, I think.
	At that point, her mindset, whether it was obvious or not, it surely is now.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mark Furman.
	Good morning.
	Hello.
	I guess you're not.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mark Furman.
	Good morning.
	Yeah, good morning.
	My name is Jack, and I'm on the Oregon Coast.
	All right.
	And yeah, good evening, Mark Furman.
	I didn't think I'd ever talk to you for any reason, but since I'm able to, Yeah, I thought that the Bretton Woods Slashers trial was pretty pathetic.
	I saw all of your testimony and I didn't see anything really wrong in your testimony at all.
	The one thing that did bug me, the only reason I did call, was the fact that they asked you a question having to do with your position this is a good racist attitude to do
	with uh...
	for the fact that you felt that uh... that uh... blacks were
	well they implied lowlife anyway and that did you did you ever at any time
	ever referred to them as niggers
	and i think they came up with some kind of recording in court
	that they came up with recordings of a screenplay is that a fact
	A fictional screenplay.
	Is that a fact?
	It's copyrighted and it exists today.
	Because I was wondering, because everything you said sounded pretty straight to me, and I couldn't believe that you could just turn it around like that.
	Well, you know what's interesting is, do you see how effective the defense and the media's careful picking and choosing?
	Well, I think the whole trial, Mark, was pathetic, and the thing is, you know, He wasn't the judge, obviously.
	Hopefully they do not ever do that one again.
	I'm with you on that.
	I think Judge Ito had his own agenda.
	What do you think that was?
	I think it's interesting that his wife and I had a supervisor-subordinate relationship that's probably the most negative I've ever had on the department.
	And she seems to have forgotten that.
	Should he have recused himself?
	Absolutely.
	Just at the mere hint, he should have recused himself.
	If he didn't, then that lingers and he puts his wife in a terrible position and I think we can only say one thing, how can she forget a circumstance in a relationship that I could bring a dozen policemen into that courtroom and they'll tell you exactly Exactly what happened, like it was yesterday.
	It was so obvious for over a year in that division.
	You said there were a lot of things, or at least some things, that even to this day you have not talked about.
	I have an obligation to ask, would you like to talk about them?
	Well, you know, there are some things that... Even in general terms?
	Ben Adder is not what he truly wants to be.
	He's even worse than the performance he put on TV when he was trying to defend himself against, not allegations, but the facts that I presented in my book.
	I wrote three more chapters in an epilogue for the paperback that's coming out in December.
	I lay out not only the second search warrant where Marsha Clark was knee deep in deception, But Phil Van Adder, and I think we really have to look at this exactly what it is.
	It appears that there was a collective conscious effort to keep my partner Brad Roberts out of this case for some of the most obvious reasons once these three chapters are read.
	As I said before, Roberts and I found all the evidence.
	At Rockingham and we found the crucial evidence at Bundy.
	We didn't need any help on this and I think that had to be kind of ignored.
	If they brought Roberts in, somebody even in the newspaper is bound to catch on and say, what did we need Van Etter and Lang for?
	Furman and Roberts already found all this stuff.
	So I don't know if it was ego.
	I don't know if it was testimony.
	I try to bring out as much in questions as I can.
	There's more at a point that when I can prove it, I will do so.
	But just like my book, I will not write anything down that I cannot prove, unlike Lang and Van Adder's book and Marsha Clark's book.
	I read Marsha Clark's book and I'll give you an example.
	Marsha Clark's book gives Brad Roberts one paragraph.
	Brad Roberts, she says, all Brad Roberts could bring to the case is to say Mark Furman was a stand-up guy.
	That, just all by itself, is about the biggest lie I've ever heard.
	Brad Roberts, let's just see what Brad Roberts could bring to the case.
	Alright, we're at a break point here, so take care and we'll be right back to you.
	Mark Furman.
	And coming up, his take on his own partner and what his partner could have brought to the case.
	I'm Art Bell and this is Coast to Coast AM.
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	All right.
	Mark, you're back on the air again.
	And let me ask you this.
	It's from Bob in Bakersfield.
	Long-time listener.
	And I watched every minute of that trial on television, by the way, Mark.
	And so did he, apparently.
	He says, I'm not sure if you can or will ask this question of Mark, but here it is.
	When he was sitting on the witness stand and F. Lee Bailey asked him, if you've ever referred to a black person as a nigger, why didn't he just say, yes, who hasn't?
	Everyone sometime in their life probably has.
	Things would have turned out very differently.
	Do you think, you know, hindsight and all that, that you would have answered differently?
	Well, you know, on one hand, first, it's probably the most uncomfortable position That anybody's going to be put short of being on trial themselves.
	And it's very easy to look backwards when you're not on the spot.
	You bet.
	But we have to look, we're not talking about a citizen, we're talking about one of the first detectives on the scene, that's the first thing.
	The second thing, one of the detectives that found most of the crucial evidence, that's the second thing.
	And the mere question is an indictment.
	The answer is almost totally irrelevant, so just forget my answer.
	Let's just say my tongue was cut out just seconds before the question was completed.
	The jury is looking at an LAPD detective first that has asked the question.
	Now, if you answer it one way, you're a liar.
	If you answer it the other way, you're a liar.
	Or a racist.
	Either way, you're a liar.
	They don't believe you if you say no.
	If you say yes, they only think it's worse.
	You have a predominantly, almost entirely black jury.
	To put that question before that jury in a totally irrelevant issue in this case, probably the most irrelevant issue of any case involving a black defendant in the history of this country, to put that there and Edo allowing that to be put there, he completely routed that case.
	It was totally unnecessary.
	It had nothing to do with the case.
	I tried to litigate Bailey's question.
	I never have called anybody that to their face.
	Have I used it?
	Yes.
	Would I have wished that I would have gone back there and answered that differently?
	I can say sure.
	But it's only for my personal reasons.
	It has nothing to do with the case.
	That jury, we know now, was predisposed, no matter what questions were asked in that courtroom.
	Yeah, I guess they were.
	East of the Rockies, you're on air with Mark Furman.
	Hi.
	Hi, good evening.
	This is Matt from Madison, Wisconsin.
	Hi, Matt.
	Mark, I'm going to give you a welcome reprieve from the previous questions.
	This has nothing to do with the Houston Simpson case whatsoever.
	Good.
	This is purely about your opinion as a police officer.
	I've had a friend who has been through highways in South Dakota several times.
	He has a VW van.
	And it's decked out with Grateful Dead stickers.
	Things like that.
	I can hear a gentleman.
	He's 30 years old.
	And probably hasn't smoked any pot since he was in college.
	And he's been pulled over twice in South Dakota by a canine highway patrol unit and the last time he went through there, on the way to a concert, the same police officer, for the third time, pulled around on the median, followed him for about five miles, drove past him, smiled and waved.
	My question is, do you think that the war on drugs It's taken such a terrible turn against the casual user, especially about marijuana.
	I mean, obviously in L.A.
	you have seen much greater problems in marijuana users.
	Not to put you on the spot personally, but as far as a general societal issue, do you really think that marijuana use is that great of a danger to society?
	I've heard all the stepping stone issues.
	So I'd like to really hear... In other words, eliminate the stepping stone.
	No, I'm not going to eliminate the stepping stone.
	I started off with alcohol.
	I was a senior in high school.
	I had a few drinks and it led me.
	I wouldn't say it led me, but I ended up smoking marijuana and I've used LSD, cocaine a couple of times.
	I've used a lot of things.
	But I'm 23 now and if I am going to use drugs, I will smoke marijuana occasionally.
	I think I've learned from my experiences to know that the other things are not what they are to be.
	It might be useful to experience those things.
	I'm sure many people around the arts generation, things like that, are probably of the same idea.
	But do you think that the war against marijuana in particular, mandatory minimums especially, imposing five year sentences for someone who is growing ten plants for what they think is medical use or for
	personal use, do you think the penalties are excessive? And the comments you've made so
	far tonight have been very intelligent and have been quite a striking difference from
	what the media portrayed you as. Well, that's because this is a different kind of media.
	Radio is a better place to Well, radio is the heartbeat of America.
	You've got the time and you have somebody not constantly interrupting you with a commercial or switching the camera or cutting your mic off.
	Those are tricks on TV.
	I'll answer this question.
	What happened to your friend is kind of what happens in an area where the trickle down of crime gets down to that level.
	So that's one issue that we really can't address without knowing a lot more ingredients.
	As far as the casual user, it's just like the guy that goes out and has a couple of beers with his buddies and a burger and watches a game.
	Everybody that gets in a car that kills somebody under the influence, which is 25,000 people a year, causes him heartache and he does nothing wrong.
	That's the issue with the casual user.
	You could have a whole bunch of people that are casual users that don't drive, don't affect anybody, don't cause anybody any heartache.
	The problem is you have people that take an inch, then they take a foot, then they take a mile.
	In other words, six plants for personal use.
	Somebody says, okay, that's okay.
	The next guy is 12 plants.
	I just use twice as much, but he's selling half of it to pay for his habit.
	It's a trickle down effect.
	They have to establish.
	It's like personal possession.
	How much is a ticket and how much are you possessing for sale?
	It can be broken down fairly easily if you know anything about narcotics.
	You know how much heroin you can use yourself.
	How much cocaine, how much marijuana, how much of anything you can use yourself, especially when you're carrying it in your pocket.
	I have a problem with focusing too much on users of marijuana, but it's like we said before, sometimes it's a way to get information.
	If you're talking just about a working person that all he does is use marijuana for his personal use, he's going to take the heat for all the people.
	Well, one of the people he's going to take the heat for is the people that are selling it, because he's not selling it just to him.
	He's selling it to a dozen or two dozen or a hundred people.
	Unfortunately, that's just the way it's going to have to be.
	You just have to use judgment on the street as a policeman.
	Who to enforce and who's a waste of time?
	Alright, well he asked, this is a good question about mandatory minimums.
	Now you get some guy popped for pot who goes in for five years.
	And the net effect, it seems, of mandatory minimums like this with respect to drugs has been to perhaps kick somebody out the other end who committed some sort of violent crime and probably ought not be back out there.
	You can't prove that.
	And I think mandatory minimums, correct me if I'm wrong, I've never seen a mandatory minimum that was ever mandatory in a courtroom in California.
	I think the feds have those types of mandatory minimums, do they not?
	Yeah, they do.
	Well, you know, federal law has been totally ineffective at making penalties or laws that work in states because every state and every city has its unique problems.
	So I would say that the federal law trying to enforce state violations, I think that's a problem.
	In your audience understand how the feds and the state laws really interact.
	Usually the state, if it isn't covered by the state, you look at the feds and see if they'll file the case for you because they have something that would either be more stringent of a penalty or they could handle the case where there really isn't a violation, a clear cut or serious violation in your state laws.
	So they work off each other back and forth.
	It's like the RICO Act.
	It's a good example.
	The states don't have a RICO Act.
	That's right.
	And so where the feds can move, or the feds can move in some cases, where you just can't at all.
	Yeah, I'll give you an example.
	Carjacking case.
	You have a problem getting a carjacker because in California for a long time it's simply a robbery.
	Now a robbery can start out at a year, but if you cross state lines with that, interstate Transportation is stolen property.
	That's a federal crime.
	You bet.
	So, you know, it's used both ways and I think that's the problem.
	I think it is kind of ridiculous.
	Somebody in possession of a bag of marijuana to do five years in prison when you're getting guys in robberies doing two.
	If you did a traffic stop and you found somebody in possession of a small amount Typically, would you take the time to bust them for that, write them a ticket, or what?
	Well, putting me in that position was a long time ago.
	When I first came on the department, it was still a felony.
	There's no choice.
	Mr. Mear, you have a choice.
	I think it would depend on who I'm dealing with.
	Am I dealing with some kids?
	You know, working people, am I dealing with a good citizen or am I dealing with a convict that I'll do anything to be able to take him out of circulation, to be able to see what he's up to, why he's there.
	So you make those kind of judgments in the street?
	Oh, absolutely.
	I've let so many people go for so many things because they make a mistake.
	I've given people rides home that have obviously been drinking because they're Just a hard working guy that stopped for one too many beers after work.
	Lock up your car and go into the restaurant.
	Drink coffee for a couple of hours.
	Give them a ride home if it's close.
	You make those calls because it comes back to you.
	That guy might see a cop someday getting the hell kicked out of him and help him because somebody helped him at one time.
	It works both ways.
	Some guy I know is on parole that's had three beers and he's driving a car and it might be a busy night.
	Well, I've got a parolee here that's on parole for robbery and I have an opportunity to take him to the station, shake him down, see what's going on, see what he's doing, call his parole officer, get a parole search on the car, parole search on his apartment.
	I'm going to do it.
	The King case.
	Your take on the King case.
	Rodney King?
	Yeah.
	Well, the first thing I'll say is Rodney King dictated that he was going to be stopped.
	Nobody was staked on the freeway waiting to stop Rodney King.
	The second thing I'll say is when he was stopped, he had two passengers.
	A lot of people forget this.
	Two passengers that did not fight, did not resist, were handcuffed.
	Not a foul word.
	They were placed in a police car, not a scratch.
	Mr. King decided that he was going to fight.
	and continue to fight.
	And he did.
	Now if the officers went too far at certain points, it's not up to me to decide because
	I haven't seen the entire tape and I don't have all the evidence.
	But I'll tell you one thing, there was no racism involved there.
	They did not dictate that stop.
	Mr. King dictated that stop and he could have got in the car just like his two friends and
	nothing would have occurred.
	And I think of recent, I think he's in custody again for beating up his wife, is he not?
	i've been in and out of trouble ever since He was on parole when he was stopped for robbery.
	Do you think if it had been a white business person in a suit, it would have ended the same way, given the same sort of behavior?
	Yeah, I do.
	I'll tell you one reason why.
	A lot of those policemen were very young on the job.
	Stacy Coon was the only real veteran there.
	He was trying to control a lot of things going on there.
	He's not supposed to get hands on unless it really came down to a life or death situation.
	But you had a lot of policemen there that weren't too large either.
	Rodney King was pretty big.
	So tying up with this guy in a fist fight or choking him out, which a lot of people forget.
	They took that away from Los Angeles Police Department several years before.
	One person getting a bar arm control.
	If today was 20 years ago, Mark, and you were going to go into the academy in today's atmosphere, would it be a different choice?
	You mean start in 1997?
	Yeah.
	I wouldn't do it.
	Today was 20 years ago, Mark, and you were going to go into the academy in today's atmosphere.
	Would it be a different choice?
	You mean start in 1997?
	Yes.
	I wouldn't do it.
	Law enforcement has changed quite possibly forever.
	It's unfortunate because people better realize something.
	It's still 1880 out there.
	We just have cars.
	That really is true.
	Welcome to the Rockies.
	You're on the air with Mark Furman.
	Good morning.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	How are you doing?
	Where are you?
	I'm in Sacramento on KESP.
	Okay.
	But I used to live in Pacific Grove, and seaside's changed a little.
	Everybody's moved to Marina.
	I'm sorry you might want to know.
	It's been a while.
	Okay, Mr. Furman, it's nice to speak with you.
	I'm sorry about all that trial stuff.
	It certainly didn't make you look very good, but you seem to be a really honest gentleman and very knowledgeable.
	I wanted to ask you something about, I don't know if it was a rumor or if I heard correctly, Did you ever see a UFO?
	No.
	Have you seen any since you've been up there?
	No.
	I'm usually either on radio or asleep at night.
	Couldn't afford a lot of time looking up anyway.
	I'll tell you, it's a very interesting subject.
	Roswell has always been a very interesting subject for me.
	Roswell in 1947.
	I'll tell you, Roswell is probably the best example of a case where a couple good detectives should be on that because there's been a lot of things that nobody seems to want to explain and they can't explain them.
	And I find it odd that they don't want to.
	Mark, did you see the Air Force News Conference, the latest explanation for Roswell, you know, the dummies and all the stuff?
	Oh yeah, that stand-up comedy act they had?
	Yeah, and that shows you how threatened they are by the heightened interest of this.
	I'll give you my slam on this.
	If they were working with experimental aircraft, okay, that's 1947.
	We came out with a stealth fighter.
	We only worked on that for about eight years.
	We came out with that.
	What could they possibly have in 1947 they were working on that they don't want to disclose after they disclose the stealth fighter?
	Yeah, beats me.
	I mean, it's silly.
	I think the latter is probably the truth.
	is something that they can't explain and they don't want anybody investigating it.
	Whatever.
	Either they can't explain it because it's theirs or they won't explain it because it's
	out of their control.
	I think the latter is probably the truth.
	What couldn't they explain that they were working on under the effort of national security
	or a peacetime machine to stop war or an aircraft or a spacecraft?
	How egotistical can we be?
	We put people on the moon, we put spacecraft on Venus and Mars, we think there might be life on Mars, microscopic as it is, but still life, and yet we're so egotistical we're the only people in a finite universe.
	You really, really raise a good point.
	There have been a lot of ufologists, Basically, amateur investigators compared to somebody with a career as a detective.
	It would be an interesting, interesting assignment, wouldn't it?
	Oh, it'd be great.
	I'd love it.
	To go after it as a detective, a trained detective.
	Oh, absolutely.
	Whichever the way the chips fall to.
	You report not what you want, but you report what really occurred.
	And I think the one thing that people don't understand in this is there's people that have nothing to gain and actually are I'm very afraid of even talking until Lieutenant Marcellus was getting ready to die.
	He was the intelligence officer that was first assigned to go out and look at this wreck.
	Do you mean Major Marcellus?
	Oh, I'm sorry, Major.
	Listen, we're at the top of the hour here.
	Are you good to go?
	Are you awake still?
	Yeah, I could go another half hour.
	Alright, let's do it then.
	Stay right there and relax and we will continue.
	My guest is retired detective mark for
	the the
	the the
	the Watch that beat!
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	Now, here again, Art Bell.
	If you would like to get the attention of your dancing queen, might I suggest absolutely fresh flowers.
	This is a flower farm in Southern California.
	Only thing they do is grow miniature carnations.
	That's all they do.
	They do one thing and they do it absolutely correctly.
	Now, when you order from them, you get as many flowers as you would get if you were buying wholesale.
	That's a fact.
	That's so many flowers that it is astounding to the person in receipt.
	Your dancing queen.
	They come in a large triangular box, just packed in there, all these miniature carnations, along with a card from you, very personalized, handwritten, your message of love and caring, whatever you want to say, and your name at the bottom.
	Handwritten, quite a service.
	Delivered, $42.95.
	You call today, they deliver tomorrow by FedEx.
	Boom, like that.
	It's 1-800-562-6438.
	1-800-562-6438.
	Now, Wirelesscom.
	If you don't have credit, or you have bad credit, your chances of getting a cellular phone are slim and zero.
	They'll laugh you.
	Well, they may not laugh if they're polite, but inside they'll be laughing.
	You know, people without good credit or no credit, which amounts to about the same thing.
	Can't get cellular phones because they've been ripped off too much.
	This is just a fact.
	So here comes a new industry.
	It's called prepaid cellular.
	It's kind of like a prepaid phone card.
	They load so much.
	You pay cash.
	They load so much use into a card.
	And away you go in business.
	For you, it is an investment opportunity.
	Requires $8,400 minimum investment.
	And they will ask you questions to determine that you can invest that kind of money.
	But then they will send you a free investment kit and video cassette outlines the whole thing.
	Remember, it's an investment, not a guarantee.
	You consider the idea, as you would any investment, and decide for yourself.
	The material is absolutely free.
	The number to call is 1-800-444-1050.
	That's 1-800-444-1050.
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	That's 1-800-557-4627.
	You've got nothing to lose but the facts.
	Alright, Mark, you're back on the air.
	Question.
	In the police force, particularly LAPD, and you can probably comment now that you're gone, I was in the Air Force and it was widely understood and known in the Air Force that if somebody didn't like you and they wanted to come after you, they would keep coming until they got you.
	Is that particularly true in the LAPD as well?
	Well, yeah.
	I think any big organization, you have people that you work for that protect you because You have people that work the streets and people that are detectives that promote up the ranks, usually up to about captain.
	They are actually on a polar opposite.
	I'll give you an example.
	You have people that work the streets and people that are detectives that promote up
	the ranks, usually up to about captain.
	Those people are good supervisors and leaders and they protect policemen and detectives
	that are doing good police work.
	I don't mean protect them from them committing crimes or personnel complaints.
	What they do is they protect them in so much as allowing them to do their job and what they're good at.
	In other words, keep them in positions and keep them supplied with equipment and opportunities to do their job well.
	You have other administrators that call that a cowboy.
	That's right.
	They don't like that and I truly believe they don't like that because they were never any good at it and that's why they became commanders and chiefs because they went up the supervision ladder because they really couldn't cut it as street cops.
	Administrative.
	Administrative.
	I can't even imagine why you'd want to be a policeman and be an administrator.
	They just don't go hand in hand.
	Did you have a reputation as a cowboy?
	Yeah.
	I'm not going to say.
	I was pretty much by the book, but still I used a lot of imagination and surveillances and interrogation and different ways to catch people and analyze crime trends.
	I went out there and if somebody was going to mix it up, I never backed away.
	That isn't a macho thing.
	That's what we're supposed to do.
	It's not even what we're supposed to do.
	We can't do anything else.
	You just don't have policemen backing away from a situation where there is a shooting or a fight.
	Do you spend a lot of time sitting there getting chewed out?
	No, quite the opposite.
	I had 55 commendations.
	I had supervisors that asked me to work for them.
	I had units that wanted me to work for them.
	But then again, these are people that wanted police work done and they really didn't care about some silly program that some I have some questions for you, Mr. Fuhrman.
	up with that make him look good at the chamber of commerce luncheon you know
	that's exactly what you know alright uh... with limited time let's go to line one year
	on the road mark from a good morning
	good morning where are you
	where are you so i thought i would call you from portland or a couple of
	dollars i found i have a a question for you mister firman
	uh... first of all uh... there are a couple of organizations
	One is called Men Against Women and another is called White Anglo-Saxon Police.
	These are supremacist organizations.
	They're what?
	White supremacist organizations.
	And where do they exist?
	My information is that there are law enforcement officers that are members of this Or these organizations, and did you once comment regarding WASP, which is the acronym for White Anglo-Saxon Police, did you once comment, I am the Grand Dragon, I am the Hood.
	That was White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, sir.
	Well, no, that's the normal acronym, White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, but this organization is also called WASP, White Anglo-Saxon Police.
	And your question was, did he comment what?
	Did you once comment regarding your alleged association with this group, I Am the Grand Dragon, I Am the Hood?
	Oh, absolutely.
	You did?
	Oh, yes.
	That was in the screenplay tapes for a fictional screenplay.
	I'll bet you never guessed what the name of the screenplay is.
	It's copyrighted.
	What is it?
	Men Against Women.
	What a shock!
	Where did most of your information come from, sir?
	The media?
	Pardon me?
	Where did most of your information come from?
	My information comes from an excellent, excellent, exhaustive researcher by the name of Dave Emery who interviewed three authors of books about I'd love to know what authors, because there's been no author of any book that even... Alright, hold on.
	Hold on, sir.
	Let Mark finish.
	You know what's interesting?
	A lot has been written about me, and nobody's asked me.
	In fact, nobody's even asked one of my partners.
	In fact, nobody's even asked one of my supervisors.
	In fact, if one of these authors would be...
	Let's see, probably Jeffrey Toobin, who never talked to me.
	I'm sorry, it's hard to hear you here.
	The point is, you have no information.
	Absolutely none.
	My information comes from this interview with these authors.
	I'm merely asking you this question.
	But they're quoting something that he said in his screenplay.
	Let me see.
	Did you ever plant drugs and or money on people, primarily people of color?
	Sir, everything you're talking about is in a fictional screenplay research tape to give a woman stuff to write about that had no idea what went on in the TV police episodes, let alone the real street.
	All right.
	Well, we'll leave it there.
	Obviously, it came from the screenplay.
	You wanted to say something earlier about your partner.
	There's a lot that could be said about your partner that never came out.
	You look at Brad Roberts.
	Brad Roberts is with me.
	He's a bloody finger.
	Brad Roberts goes to Rockingham with me after I returned to Bundy momentarily to inspect the one glove there.
	He goes back.
	I explain everything that has occurred at Rockingham.
	He looks into the Bronco and now because the sun had come up, he finds blood in the Bronco We call Phil Van Adder over to the Bronco.
	He sees it and gets very excited.
	Brad Roberts finds the blood trail.
	I'm finding the blood trail.
	Brad Roberts and I find the blood in the foyer.
	Brad Roberts and I find the knife box upstairs by the bathtub.
	Brad Roberts and I see the black socks at the end of the bed at about 7.30, quarter to 8 in the morning.
	Brad finds the black sweats in the washing machine.
	Brad Roberts finds a blood transfer on the maid's half bath, the steep from the washing machine.
	Is that right?
	Well, if all of that is true, how can a passionate, and she certainly seemed passionate, Marsha Clark, not want to put Brad Roberts up there to back up every word you said?
	Well, I think I'll answer it with some questions.
	Did Phil Van Adder find the blood inside the Bronco?
	I'm going to tell you right now.
	I'm standing there when the blood's found.
	He did not.
	If he found it before that, okay, that's fine.
	Kind of sounds like two independent observations and conclusions by two experienced veteran detectives is even more powerful than one, is it not?
	But the problem is, once Brad Roberts and I have all this evidence that we found, they have no more thunder.
	Brad Roberts also talked to O.J.
	Simpson before anybody did, and he made statements about what's going on here.
	And Brad finally says, well there's a blood trail that leads from Bundy right up here.
	He starts hyperventilating and sweating and saying, oh man, oh man, oh man, just chanting it.
	Really?
	I had Brad Roberts immediately after O.J.
	Simpson left with Phil Van Adder.
	I said, Brad, go in and write down everything he said right now.
	That is in the homicide book.
	That is in the homicide book that the defense has also.
	And don't think that everything that I said The defense doesn't know.
	They knew it before my book came out.
	That's what made them so fearful.
	If the prosecution would have played the case down the line, the way things happened, instead of taking detours around things that they didn't want to deal with because of Van Adder's mistakes, this would have went down and then at least we would have presented the case and done the investigation unquestionably guilt.
	And whatever the jury did then, that's their business.
	You're making a case that all this was done to, in essence, cover Van Adder's mistakes.
	Well, I'll tell you this.
	Wasn't it way beyond that in importance?
	Well, you know, we have to look.
	Who sets the wheels in motion?
	I'm going to give you a little hint on the paperback version of my book.
	Alright.
	In the second search warrant, on June 28th, we go back to search for what?
	Black sweats?
	A knife?
	Evidence of a knife?
	Any blood?
	Didn't we already find the black sweats?
	Yep.
	Didn't we already find an open and empty knife box?
	Empty, yes.
	In the search warrant it says we're going to go back and look for a knife in places that could be concealed.
	Well, let me tell you something.
	You couldn't have hit a tooth put any place in that place that we didn't look.
	I was under the house.
	I was on the roof.
	We turned over and took pictures off the wall.
	We did everything.
	I'll tell you right now, we went back in that second search warrant and there were things that were already found.
	Black sweats were already found.
	That was not in the search warrant.
	There's something very interesting in the search warrant.
	Van Adder describes a blood trail leading up the driveway, but he never mentions that he sees blood in the Bronco.
	Seeing blood in the Bronco connects that Bronco to that blood trail.
	Absolutely.
	So then, why no mention?
	Well, I think that's the big question.
	One would be that you didn't see it there, so you're the affiant in the search warrant.
	Why would he testify that he did?
	I can understand, to some degree, some protection.
	But once they saw things falling apart, to continue to protect Van Atter, as you're suggesting, when you're obviously blowing up, the case is going up in smoke, at some point Van Atter is not that important.
	Well, you have to look at another thing here, too.
	You've got to see where my testimony stopped and why.
	The prosecution, their direct testimony on me stopped after my discovery of the glove in my interview with Cato Kalin.
	Right.
	I could establish the black socks were there at 7.30, quarter to 8, 8 o'clock.
	The black socks that came into question that they weren't there at that time.
	The Swiss Army knife box.
	It's clear why I couldn't testify after that point.
	They didn't take the knife box.
	They didn't take the black sweats.
	They didn't recover the blood transfer from the maid's half bath.
	Let's just think with that blood transfer on the maid's light switch cover.
	In the half bath next to the laundry room, that blood was O.J.
	Simpson's.
	What's he doing in that maid's half bath?
	Of course.
	He's very close to the wash machine.
	Did he put his sweats in there?
	Sees himself bleeding, goes into the maid's half bath, turns on the light switch with his bleeding finger.
	The light switch was on the left side.
	He would have used his left hand to do that.
	Right.
	Goes in there, looks in the mirror.
	Was there blood in the sink?
	Did he get something to stop the bleeding?
	Probably.
	But we could have put him in a maid's half bath next to those sweats.
	Absolutely damning it.
	And the knife box.
	People say, but you didn't have the knife.
	It's more powerful.
	Just days before the murder, he's back in Connecticut getting samples of Swiss Army knives.
	He makes a statement to a driver, a limo driver, that He displays one of the bigger knives and says, you could hurt somebody with this.
	You could even kill somebody.
	That driver takes a polygraph just days before the second search warrant is written.
	None of this is in the second search warrant.
	He passes the polygraph.
	Now look what you have.
	You have this statement combined with him absolutely obtaining, possessing and displaying and making this statement.
	Now you have, on the very day his wife is murdered, a knife box.
	That came from that corporation in Connecticut that that driver saw missing.
	That's more powerful than finding the knife on the road with no fingerprints in the blood of both victims.
	Because, Mr. Simpson, where's the knife that goes in the box?
	How are you doing living with all this now?
	Oh, I'm fine.
	I didn't do anything wrong.
	I understand, but I mean, it must be, it's a terribly frustrating end Well, you know, I'll never be able to put this behind me, but what I feel in my heart is the same thing as Brad Roberts and Ron Phillips feel.
	We did everything right that day.
	We gave them everything on a silver platter.
	to put something behind you, is that with you now and aiding you now?
	I'll never be able to put this behind me, but what I feel in my heart, and the same
	thing as Brad Roberts and Ron Phillips feel, is that we did everything right that day.
	We gave them everything on a silver platter.
	What they did with it, they threw it in the garbage.
	We did nothing wrong.
	You know I'm not a good lawyer.
	I wonder how Phil Van Adder feels about the mistakes he made.
	I'm not somebody to beat somebody to death with something.
	I think I would have been kinder and a little more objective with him and maybe a little more forgiving if he just would have admitted some mistakes.
	Have you ever talked to them about it?
	No, they won't.
	They won't debate with me.
	They won't go on the same TV show.
	But, you know, it's not surprising that they tried to attack me when I came out with the book, and every TV show they went on, they had a different story, because every time they came up with something, I had something that I was holding back that I destroyed above, and they had to change the story again.
	Okay, well, Los Angeles has been listening carefully to this, I'm sure, this morning.
	We're on KBC down there.
	If Phil Van Adder would like to come on and debate you at some point in the future.
	Oh, sure.
	No problem.
	You're up for it, huh?
	All right.
	We're almost out of time.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Hello?
	Hello.
	You're on the air with Mark Furman.
	Gee, Art Bell, I didn't realize a person had to hold so long to get on your show.
	How are you doing, Mark Furman?
	Good.
	How are you?
	Okay.
	He's popular.
	Hey, you know, I've been listening to most of your interview, and along with a lot of other people, I always thought O.J.
	Simpson was guilty.
	I think it was a damn shame that you were made a scapegoat on that.
	What else happens when you take a pile of money, a big pile, and hide the truth somewhere behind it?
	Isn't that the truth?
	Actually, during the trial, what I said was that I thought that there was enough money there that he actually purchased reasonable doubt.
	Absolutely.
	As far as somebody saying the n-word, you can poll any 1,000 people of different ethnic origin and ask them if they've ever called somebody who was different an ethnic slur.
	If they were honest, whatever.
	I just wanted to let you know, how do you like the northern Idaho area?
	It's great.
	I grew up in western Washington, so this is like returning home to me.
	It's great.
	I'm having a great time up here.
	Are you among friends?
	Oh, yeah.
	I'm among friends any place I go.
	It's a big retirement community for police, isn't it?
	Oh, I don't mean friends like that.
	I mean just everybody I meet.
	I make friends in every city I go.
	All different kinds of people.
	So you're happy there?
	Oh, yes.
	Absolutely.
	All right.
	Well, listen.
	The half hour is over.
	I wish it wasn't.
	I could go on and on.
	Why don't we let this one hang in the air, and maybe I'll get a fax or something from Mr. Van Adder.
	If you get that, make sure the gloves are off.
	And tell him that.
	All right.
	You got it.
	Okay.
	Thanks a lot.
	Thank you, Mark, and take care.
	You too.
	All right.
	That's Mark Furman.
	It's 2.30.
	He stayed up late with us.
	I'm Mark Bell.
	Coming up, Open Lines.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	On the telephone she's finally loving no one else.
	Rockin' every motion in my foolish love's game.
	On the telephone she's finally loving no one else.
	Running every time through those secret days of night.
	Watching this emotion as you turn around and say, Say my words aren't a lie.
	Oh I'm Art Bell.
	toll-free west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255, 1-800-618-8255, east of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033,
	1-800-825-5033. This is the CBC Radio Network.
	It is. I'm Art Bell. To get a copy of the program you just heard, you're welcome to
	You're welcome to call 1-800-917-4278.
	That's 1-800-917-4278.
	Mark Furman is a good interview with me.
	I'm afraid I've got some bad news for you in a moment here.
	We've just been able to confirm it, so I'm just now going to get it on the air.
	Are you working 9 to 5?
	Well, if so, there is a way out for you.
	There really is a way out.
	And it really does work.
	Commodities trading.
	And that means coffee, cattle, beans, that sort of thing.
	And a lot of people think it's a good way to go broke.
	And actually it is, if you don't know what you're doing.
	Ken Roberts is a man who knows what he's doing and can teach you.
	He has taught thousands of people who are the ones who are consistent winners now in trading commodities.
	He doesn't tell you what to invest in.
	Instead, he teaches you how to invest.
	It's not a get-rich-quick scheme, though many have become wealthy.
	It's a very unique way of doing this.
	In other words, you invest on paper as you are learning.
	Not using real money, but investing on paper as though you were.
	And only when you're absolutely confident you know what you're doing, do you switch to money.
	And so if you don't become confident, obviously, you don't risk money.
	All you've got to do is make one free call.
	They will send you what they call their money kit.
	It's an audio tape and a 44 page report lays the whole thing out.
	And you go from there.
	So the first step is without obligation.
	No obligation whatsoever.
	And it is free.
	Call 1-888-GOLD-KRC.
	That's 1-888-G-O-L-D-K-R-Z.
	Give me a minute to tell you about Ruthie and Larry Brown.
	You know, I've given GMX my personal endorsement for a long time now.
	In fact, this month I think I begin my third year working with the Browns.
	I like their GMX water conditioner, and I guess you do, too, because we've sure sold a bunch of them.
	But for all their success, the Browns are as real as their product.
	They have an office in their home in Colorado, talking to folks, sending information in GMX magnetic units all across America.
	GMX is the way to eliminate hard water problems.
	You know, that ugly white buildup known as scale, calcium, alkali, whatever you want to call it.
	It is ugly and damaging to your plumbing.
	It's easy.
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	No electricity, no ongoing costs, and GMX magnetic units come with a 90-day money-backed, iron-clad guarantee and a lifetime warranty.
	You really should give them a call at 1-800-406-0469.
	Once you've experienced the spectacular benefits of GMX magnetic water conditioning, you may want to go into business for yourself, and Larry and Ruthie can help you.
	That's 1-800-406-0469.
	Tell them Art Bell told you to call.
	That's 1-800-406-0469.
	As many of you know, Danion Brinkley is a very good friend of mine.
	Danion Brinkley, I have just been informed, is in the hospital in intensive care with an aneurysm.
	The aneurysm is hemorrhaging on the right side of his brain.
	The bleeding is continuing apparently at this hour.
	We just received a call from his cousin.
	I'm not going to release the name of the hospital that he's in, because the hospital would be under siege.
	But apparently, Danion is stable.
	They're reporting his condition as stable, but at the same time, they're reporting that he has an aneurysm that is hemorrhaging in his brain, right side.
	And his cousin asks, and I certainly second this, that you send any thoughts and prayers and energy that you can muster To try and heal Danion's brain.
	To try and heal this aneurysm and stop the bleeding.
	Danion has had a heart condition for a very long time.
	For that heart condition he takes blood thinners.
	He's between a rock and a hard place right now because if he doesn't take the thinners his blood clots and he has a heart attack.
	When he does take the blood thinners And you begin to have a problem like an aneurysm, a bleeding aneurysm.
	And then, of course, you're risking bleeding to death.
	So his situation is grave.
	And, believe it or not, I guess he's conscious and he was able to talk with his cousin, who talked to me a short time ago.
	And his concern was to let those of you who have ordered books from him personally, autographed books, know that he'll get the rest of the books out soon.
	That's what he wanted me to say on the air.
	So, we have taken the time Since we got this call to confirm the fact that he is indeed in the hospital, I wanted to be very sure that the information I had was accurate.
	Before I went on the air with it, I have confirmed it.
	So I would ask that everybody put out a thought and a prayer for Daniel, if you can.
	I know he's not afraid to die.
	And I know that's what he'd be saying.
	But I'd just as soon not lose him.
	So if you can give him a thought, I would appreciate that.
	And for him, not that I would think I should have to ask, but those of you who have ordered books, please be patient.
	He's in intensive care.
	So, let me tell you, if you hear me disappear in the next couple of days, it will be because I've spoken to Daniel
	and I'm on my way back to where he is.
	Because if it gets to that, I will go.
	So I'm really sorry to hear that.
	And, uh, Danion's always, of course, lived on the edge.
	With his health.
	Ever since what happened to him happened.
	He's had any number of physical ailments and he's always known that nearly anything can kill him.
	I just hope this isn't it.
	Because the world's a better place when he's around.
	So, Daniel, if you're out there and you're listening and you want me to come, I'll be on my way.
	Say the word.
	And I guess there's some other people I should tell.
	Well...
	So there you have it.
	I'm sorry to be dropping that on you, but I thought you should all know,
	and if there's a way to muster a lot of energy to somebody's benefit, Daniel needs it now.
	News-wise, the only other story that I consider of great significance is now picked
	up by Drudge as well.
	It's going to be on 60 Minutes this Sunday.
	Retired Russian General Alexander Lebed tells Sunday's 60 Minutes that Russia's military, this is absolutely incredible, has lost track of 100 suitcase-sized nuclear bombs CBS's Steve Croft investigates the terrifying possibility in a segment titled, The Perfect Terrorist Weapon.
	What's 100 suitcase-sized nuclear bombs?
	How the hell could they lose 100 suitcase-sized nuclear bombs?
	For the first time publicly, Leavitt admits that the, get this, 1 kiloton devices ...which are highly concealable, relatively easy to detonate by one person, are no longer under the control of the armed forces of Russia.
	In a private briefing to a delegation of U.S.
	congressmen last May in Moscow, he said he believed 84... 84 were unaccounted for.
	He tells 60 minutes he believes the figure is now more like 100.
	These weapons in any size of a city could immediately, one of them, kill 100,000 people.
	People.
	People.
	Bye.
	That's absolutely incredible.
	So if you're in a big city, you might want to give this one a little bit of thought.
	if you're in jerusalem this morning you might want to give it a lot of thought
	one hundred nuclear weapons So, I don't know.
	Those, I guess, are the two pieces of news.
	You may want to respond to what you heard with regard to the Mark Furman interview.
	You may want to say something about Danion.
	You may want to say something about 100 suitcases out there with the equivalent of 100 kilotons of nuclear mass death.
	Now I wonder where they could be.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hi, I'd love to be one of the first to wish well to Danny and his family.
	Yes, thank you.
	This is kind of tied in with, I don't want to call it prophecy, but you don't tape your shows that don't have a guest on, huh?
	Yes, we tape all shows, but we don't make available programs generally on tape, you know, to the public that are not guest programs.
	I'm referring back to your prediction shows for this pre-New Year.
	I was one that came in at number 11.
	My prediction at that time was, and I don't know if you find this believable or not, but if you get to hear the tape, it said no less than four people will be in an accident.
	Prominent people, celebrities, And then you had pressed me, oh, celebrities, four at once.
	I said, simultaneously, they're going to be in an accident.
	Two of them will be celebrities, and they might be with their wives or companions.
	And this Diana thing comes about.
	Well, you know, I maintain those records all year and pull them out at the end of every year when we do the new predictions.
	So we'll have an opportunity to grow.
	Well, I think like when you wrote it down, you had said, Uh, four people or four celebrities will be, and then I modified it to two celebrities with their companions, so that's why it would make news.
	Uh, I was also on the side, predicted the Mel's Hole prediction.
	So, that's two in a row.
	Alright, well, I guess we should consult you.
	But, you know, uh, because I haven't heard anybody really, I'm not really going out around town saying, hey, I predicted somebody's death or whatever, but, uh, They did mention how Diana had a sidekick and all that kind of thing.
	They probably didn't tell her, you know, watch out.
	Now, if you had said Diana... Oh, well then I'd be... We'd be putting you in a lab, that's right.
	Taking you apart piece by piece.
	But this is like my second year in a row that something came so close to how it was predicted.
	How did you get that information?
	I was laying on my back in bed and you said come up with your predictions for this year.
	The year prior my prediction was that there was going to be a swarm of aircrafts landing with trouble.
	I remember that.
	You did go over that this particular year.
	My prominent thought was I didn't want to predict death.
	I just said four people would be in an accident.
	I said no less than four people.
	Because I was thinking it could be somewhere like at a concert and a stage collapse or whatever.
	And then you pressed it and said, four celebrities all at once?
	And I said, well, it'll be two celebrities and their wives or whatever.
	All right.
	Well, I will, I promise, at the appropriate time, give you credit.
	We'll pull those out.
	We do predictions between Christmas and New Year's every year as a ritual.
	I've done that for too many years now.
	And so we'll pull that out.
	Give you a ding, ding, ding, ding when the time comes.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Good morning Art, how are you doing this morning sir?
	Well, um, okay.
	Have they still got your potential rain, or your rains and all that out in Pahrump?
	Pahrump?
	Pahrump, sir, Pahrump.
	No, it has cleared, thankfully, and I hope we get one more day of clear because the ground can't take anymore, so a day or two of clear and maybe we're out of the woods.
	No, Theon.
	I had a question, just your opinion on your interview with Mark Furman.
	Yes.
	Do you think basically that trial, the criminal trial involving Mr. Simpson, was basically he was declared not guilty in part to the simple fact that the powers that be that were involved in that trial were very apprehensive about the fact that they were going to have a repeat of the results of the Rodney King trial?
	Well, are you asking, do I think the prosecution did not present a full case because of that?
	Is that what you're asking?
	I would say in a roundabout way.
	they were afraid that they were going to have something that would make the right
	on the right well are you asking
	do i think the prosecution uh... did not present a full case because of that is that
	we're asking uh... i would think around about way uh...
	sure take it from that angle if you would i would say
	i wouldn't dismiss it as a possibility but i don't know what to be true
	Okay.
	I'm not trying to evade your question.
	That's the best I can do.
	That pretty well sums it up.
	I was just kind of curious as to what your thoughts might be on that.
	I tried calling when Mark was on as your guest, and I couldn't get through until just now.
	Right.
	I appreciate your call, and I can't dismiss what you have said.
	It's hard to imagine that a prosecutor whose reputation and future, to some degree, would rest on getting a conviction, not losing what seemed to be an ironclad case, would do something like that, or could be talked into doing something like that.
	That's like throwing a baseball game or something, you know?
	Somebody sits you down and says, well look, here are the real Here's the real law of nature.
	You better follow it.
	You know, if you want to see your career continue, this is what's going to happen.
	In effect, offering you a deal you can't refuse.
	I have a hard time believing that, but I don't dismiss the possibility.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air.
	Hello, Art.
	Hello, sir.
	Art, the reason I'm calling, I heard the interview with Mr. Furman tonight, and I take exception to what he said, a lot of things he said.
	What?
	Specifically?
	First of all, he lied to the jury, and he more or less said the reason he lied is... Are you referring to the use of the N-word?
	Yes.
	And he said the reason he lied is because the jury was black.
	And once he lied, you destroyed his credibility.
	Well, the only time that I know of that they were able to prove that he used the n-word was in that script.
	Okay, a piece of fiction.
	Now, I guess your statement can stand, technically, that he lied.
	Have you ever used the word?
	No.
	Well, yes, he did.
	In a fictional script.
	So, I asked him that.
	I said, look, if you could go back now and you could answer differently, would you?
	And he said, yes.
	Right.
	Well, he would answer differently.
	I also asked him, do you think that cost the trial?
	And he said, absolutely not.
	Well, I disagree with that.
	I think... I might, too.
	And I think I said so at the time, that that might have cost the trial.
	It might have.
	Well, I think it was one of the most important things in the whole trial.
	Here's a member of the Los Angeles Police Department lying on the stand.
	He destroyed his credibility, the credibility of the Los Angeles Police Department, the prosecution, and everything else.
	I absolutely believe that he was one of the most mitigating factors that lost the trial.
	Well, I don't necessarily disagree with you.
	I, too, thought that was a definite turning point, but he brought up an awful lot of things this morning that I've never heard before.
	How about you?
	Well, I didn't hear the whole program, but I heard that part, and I was more or less shocked when he answered the way he did.
	You know, alright, having said that technically you're correct, you can also make another argument, and that is that the spirit of the question was, have you ever used that word in a serious vein, out here in real life, not in something you're writing for a novel.
	And it's reasonable to say the spirit of the question didn't include whatever he might have done for fiction.
	Well, fiction or not, he was asked a straight question on the stand by Mr. F. Lee Bailey.
	Yeah, but if I bring Tom Clancy, or some other big author on the air here, and I ask them, have you ever used the N-word?
	Right.
	And they say no.
	It is reasonable they would say no, referring to their own life, their real life.
	But in a book, I'm not saying it has, but in a book Clancy or some other author may have written, it may have been used in a work of fiction.
	I don't think that exactly counts in the spirit of the question.
	Well, I think it counts in the court of law when he's sworn to tell the truth.
	Well, yeah, there you are.
	So he said, look, he said... Yeah, I agree.
	So he said... So that destroyed his credibility.
	Knowing, look, hindsight, hindsight, sir, is indeed 20-20, if not better.
	And it's easy to look back and say that now.
	And sure, he'd answer it differently, knowing what he now knows about the way it turned out.
	Right, I understand.
	But it was kind of a parlor trick.
	Well, it was a trick.
	It was a parlor trick.
	But he's sworn to tell the truth when he's on the stand, and that's what he should do.
	He's a police officer.
	He's a sworn officer of the law, and he should tell the truth in a court of law on the stand, which he did not do.
	That's plain and simple.
	That's as far as... It's cut and dry.
	All right.
	Well, I... You know, technically, I have no argument for that, and I wouldn't try to make an argument.
	I appreciate your call, and I understand your point.
	I just hope you'll consider mine.
	And how you might answer such a question yourself.
	I'm Art Bell.
	this is close to go do
	do do
	That's 702-727-1295.
	First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Once again, here I am.
	Good morning.
	727-1295. First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222. Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Once again, here I am. Good morning. It is great to be here.
	Some of the news in the morning is certainly not great, and again,
	Danion Brinkley is in the hospital with an aneurysm, bleeding on the right side of his brain.
	And I'm out.
	And, Danion, if you want me to come there, I will.
	Get that word to Danion.
	Anyway, um, good morning everybody.
	As you well know, the weather situation is worsening.
	There is an El Nino coming, the lights of which they have never seen before.
	It's very, very, very serious, and it's going to produce terrible storms, and I would like to suggest that every single one of you should have the Beijing Radio in your home.
	It's a way of getting information when the power goes out, and you will continue to get information.
	The Beijing Radio should be part of every single person's emergency equipment.
	Food, water, light, Whatever you can scrounge together to have around, you ought to have.
	After listening to yesterday's program, I don't see how you can feel any other way.
	And information is part of that.
	Reliable information.
	And that will come from the Beijing Radio.
	It has a crank on the side, inside a very interesting patented mechanism that in the future is going to be used for flashlights, computers, to operate all kinds of things.
	It's called the Bayless Clockwork Generator.
	And you turn the crank on this amazing radio for 30 seconds, and it plays on AM, FM, or numerous shortwave bands for 30 minutes.
	It plays at full room volume.
	Full room volume.
	It's a full-size portable.
	It comes from South Africa, manufactured in South Africa.
	Trevor Bayless in Great Britain invented this mechanism.
	It was originally intended for third world nations where power is interrupted frequently or non-existent.
	But it sounds like it has a pretty good use here, wouldn't you say?
	Bob Crane has them.
	They're $119.95.
	It's the best money you ever spent.
	Call Bob Crane in the morning at 730 and get one on the way.
	best money you ever spent. Call Bob Crane in the morning at 730 and get one on the way.
	1-800-522-8863.
	1-800-522-8863. That's 1-800-522-8863.
	It is, of course, the C Crane Company.
	Now, I suppose you know what this is, right?
	We've been previewing this, because I use it as bumper music all the time.
	It is Cusco.
	C-U-S-C-O.
	They're a German group, and This is a Purimac 3, the one I have been waiting a very long time for.
	I've been talking to you about it.
	It's called Nature, Spirit, and Pride.
	And the cut you're hearing now is called Ghost Dance.
	For a limited time, the people at Higher Octave have got a special new release just for my listeners.
	You can order Kuzco's new A Purimac 3 album on CD for $15.98.
	Best money you ever spent.
	$15.98 or If you want it on cassette, $9.98.
	Just call 1-800-562-8283.
	Now, if you happen to be one of the first lucky 25 callers on any individual night, your copy will be autographed by Cusco's own Michael Holm.
	You can have a limited edition boxed set that contains all three Cusco CDs.
	Now, I really recommend this.
	A Burmac 1, 2, and 3.
	Covers about 90% of the bumper music I play.
	And there you get an autographed poster.
	The combined price for that is $39.95.
	The beautiful box set.
	It's not available in stores.
	I love that line.
	In other words, you can only get it here.
	What a great gift idea for you Cusco lovers.
	Don't miss out on these special offers.
	Once again, Cusco's new Burmac 3.
	$15.98 CD or $9.98 cassette or the limited edition of Paramount Collection 3 CD box set for $39.95.
	You want to hear something really cool.
	Before the release of this record, this CD, the most amazing thing has occurred simply because I was playing it on, you know, as bumper music on this program.
	You're not going to believe this, but I just received word that the debut position for this cut, Ghost Dance, actually for the CD, in the New Age list that they keep nationwide, it debuted at number 8.
	I said number 8 before it was even released.
	I was the only one in the whole nation playing it.
	Not bad, folks.
	Not bad at all.
	Again, that number is 1-800-562-8283.
	is 1-800-562-8283. Mention the name, Art Bell.
	Art Bell.
	Are you having arthritis pain?
	Would you like to stop that pain in your joints now?
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	Call now 1-800-232-5665.
	1-800-232-5665 You've got nothing to lose but the pain.
	2-800-232-5665 Probably be a very good time for you to give a good thought
	to Danion Brinkley.
	That's what I'm thinking.
	Boy...
	When everything's just going all right, life comes along and kicks you right in the ass, doesn't it?
	Get well, Daniel.
	All right, here's some more reaction.
	Quite varied, I would say, to the Mark Furman interview we did tonight, which I thought was very good.
	Good morning, Art.
	The image the media created of Mark Furman during the trial is not at all consistent with what I'm hearing this morning.
	As the major media has a tremendous impact on the gullible American belief system, when, if ever, will we have the truth in media coverage?
	Great show.
	Take care.
	Steve, Stateline Nevada, listening.
	780-KOH.
	That's one.
	Here's another.
	Mr. Bell, I was completely and absolutely appalled by the interview you conducted with Mark Furman.
	You treated a liar as if he were a saint.
	As a black male, I knew he had used the term.
	I knew he was lying when he said it.
	My instinct tells me that there were other lies told as well.
	He stated, and you agreed, that he used these statements as part of a screenplay.
	That I believe to be true, yes.
	If this was the case, why didn't he say that when they asked him had he ever said the word?
	Once they knew, he did.
	Instead, he pleads the fifth.
	Come on!
	Ask him how many times he's seen an innocent man or woman take the fifth.
	Well, I have two responses for you.
	One is, did you miss the part, sir, that says goodbye, the only way he signs it, he doesn't sign it, it says goodbye.
	Did you miss the part where he had worked to free a black man falsely accused of a crime?
	Is that the act of a racist?
	That's a reasonable question.
	Did that information ever get into the trial?
	No, it didn't.
	Technically, did he lie?
	Yes.
	Technically, he did.
	And, in my opinion, it might have cost the trial.
	That might have been it.
	I said so at the time, and I say so now.
	However, if, in the spirit of the question, in the real spirit of the question, I saw no evidence produced that he had used the word in any context other than that of a fictional context.
	And if you were to indict every author who had done that, there'd be a lot of people indicted, I would say.
	I do have a question.
	Something that I have never really quite understood.
	When, obviously, it would be awful in the line of duty, and really police officers are always on duty, in the strictest sense, for a police officer to use the word nigger in a derogatory manner toward a black man, One thing I've never understood, maybe a black person can tell me.
	Why do black people consistently use that word to each other?
	It obviously has some different connotation that I don't properly understand.
	But black men are always calling themselves, each other, hey nigger.
	You hear it on the street.
	It's got a different connotation, somehow.
	It means something different.
	Now, you don't hear people in the white community saying, hey whitey, or hey white trash, or hey, you know, whatever derogatory term could be used to describe a white person and insult them racially.
	You don't hear white people doing that to each other.
	And yet you hear blacks doing that to themselves all the time.
	So there must be some very different connotation when blacks use that word than when whites use it.
	And I have never fully understood that, and I don't now.
	I don't understand.
	Why is that used?
	Perhaps somebody in the black community can tell me why that is used.
	West of the Rockies, you're on air.
	Hello.
	Yes, this is Art Bell.
	Yes.
	Art, this is Nancy calling from the Lula.
	Hello, Nancy.
	Hi.
	Two things real quick.
	I want to recommend a book to you about time travel.
	Okay.
	It's an excellent one, the best one I've ever read.
	It's by a man named Patrick O'Leary called Door Number Three.
	Fabulous read.
	I like the title already.
	It's an incredible read.
	Also, I want to say to you that, you know, it has been prophesied that at this time, when the major earth changes start and we go through this period, that a lot of people will be leaving the planet in different ways, especially a lot of people in the light.
	Yes.
	And I'm wondering if that's what we're starting to see and praying that Daniel is not one of those.
	My prayers go out to him.
	I've read all of his books.
	He's an incredible human being and it would be a loss to lose him, especially now.
	I've never met anybody like Daniel.
	No, he's an amazing human being.
	He's truly a saint.
	I agree with you.
	I don't know what to say.
	Pray.
	I am distinct with Diana, surprisingly.
	I was really amazed at my own emotions and feelings with that.
	Yeah, I haven't figured that one out yet at all.
	Well, I believe she was truly a light, too, and had she been around longer, we might have seen more of that.
	Maybe that's right.
	Maybe people recognized something very specially different about her.
	That's what I truly believe.
	I don't know.
	Something special.
	When the light is gone, people realize that that really was a bright light that we no longer have.
	Yep.
	Thank you very much.
	I've been working really hard on that.
	The reaction to Diana's death, tragic as it is, is utterly, totally disproportionate to the place that she occupied in the minds and hearts of the American people.
	Or you could argue that's absolutely wrong, obviously, now.
	But it was not wrong up until the moment of her death.
	So I'm still trying to figure that one out too.
	First time collar line.
	You're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hello, Eric.
	Yes, sir.
	This is Dave from the Bay Area.
	Hello, Dave.
	I enjoy your show tremendously and have sent my energies off to Damien.
	I wanted to make a comment or two on your program tonight.
	Yep.
	narrow focus on the n-word. I can't help but remember those women and a couple other witnesses
	that spelled out really rabidly racist stuff out of his mouth and I really don't think that should
	be forgotten and I'm kind of sorry that you chose to have them on the show. Well I don't remember
	direct testimony other than of his use of that word other than in that screenplay.
	Those two women both testified.
	A blonde and a red-haired, and then there were also two blacks.
	Edo limited to only four.
	A little nervous.
	No, that's alright.
	And, I'm sorry you didn't... Look, I will interview anybody if I haven't proven that over the years.
	Yeah, that's okay.
	I understand, and I really like your show.
	Let me ask you this.
	Why did you sit there and listen?
	Well, I wasn't going to.
	I was going to boycott it, and I thought, well, maybe I should listen and see what he says.
	There is no way, really, there is no way to know if somebody is really racist in their heart or not.
	I don't know how you know that.
	I mean, I talked about this during the trial.
	People use words.
	And you may be right.
	There may have been other testimonies.
	I can't remember.
	I sort of vaguely remember.
	Two women.
	Yeah.
	That came out was terrible.
	Yeah, I vaguely remember.
	I vaguely remember something about that.
	But anyway, whether or not he did use the word, it's obvious he did.
	Technically, or really, he lied.
	You really don't know if a person is truly a racist person or not.
	And I talked to him about that, this thin blue line.
	In other words, if you're policing in a community that's mainly black, I think he said he was in Watts, right?
	Early on for a lot of years in Watts.
	And you see black crime day in and day out and day in and day out.
	Pretty soon, in your mind, whether you like it or not, whether you began thinking about it in the beginning or not, you start to identify black people with crime.
	Now that's one thing, but then there's this thin blue line that you can cross over when you become a racist.
	Yes, well your points are well taken and were it not for that other testimony, I would say yes, true.
	But even if he used the word, sir.
	I'm talking about the stuff that those two women were talking about.
	Don't you remember about, you know, black people being burned alive?
	Don't you remember that?
	I think that was from the... It was from the one woman, and then there was another woman.
	Yeah, but that was from... Yes, but that was from the...
	That wasn't anything to do with a screenplay?
	I think it was.
	No, it wasn't.
	Now, maybe my memory is faulty, but I don't think so.
	She met him with the Marines and all that business had nothing to do with a screenplay.
	I remember an encounter in a bar.
	Do you remember the woman?
	Is that the woman you're talking about who had a casual encounter with... I don't think so.
	I think she met him with friends.
	Well, then I have forgotten him.
	The only other thing is, I wanted to bring up this issue about, you got a call the other day, not a call, a fax, from somebody that worked at Area 51.
	Yes, and you know what?
	I've had a series now of three calls from this person, and not once has it been a live person.
	Each time it has been some sort of messaging service, and each time he has said, well I cannot speak yet, I'll call you at such and such a time, and then I get another recording.
	All I want to say to you is be careful.
	What's his name?
	Courtney Brown?
	Was that his name?
	Got set up.
	It sounded a little too pat.
	Well, it might be.
	But again, anybody of great interest, I will put on the air and I'll let you guys decide for yourself whether he's a nutcase or credible.
	But I say it in this sense.
	I'm sure, just like they've I've gone after many people, and I'm talking about the rogue elements of the government.
	I've gone after many people.
	I am sure they would like to nail you.
	So I'm just saying, be careful.
	Stephen Greer's got cancer.
	His assistant's got cancer.
	I know.
	Carla Turner, who was connecting negative aliens with the military, got cancer.
	A congressman from New Mexico has got cancer.
	Bob Guggione's wife has cancer.
	Yeah, but I'm talking about people that were giving him trouble.
	That guy from New Mexico.
	Oh, now wait a minute.
	Hold it.
	Slow up.
	Okay.
	Do you know what magazine Bob Guccione's wife published?
	Well, Bob Guccione's Pet House.
	Yeah, but also another one.
	No, I don't.
	You ever heard of Omni?
	Yeah, that's a good point.
	All of a sudden it's gone.
	And all of a sudden this distributor that Well, I don't know that to be true.
	I'll tell you behind the scenes, I'm doing some work in this area.
	Alright?
	I'm not prepared to say anything about it yet.
	You and I have just said enough.
	The people can draw their own conclusions, but behind the scenes, I'm doing some work on this.
	The reason why I bring this up is before, I thought they couldn't touch somebody that was too high profile.
	But if they can give people cancer... Well, I... Alright.
	Um, I... Alright.
	...with a pickup truck... Yeah, I know.
	I... ...remediate the right frequencies... Yeah, alright.
	Thank you.
	I... Look.
	I'm not prepared to go out where you just went.
	Uh, what I told you is, I am aware of the numbers.
	I'm aware of the people involved, and I've been looking at this behind the scenes, and will continue to.
	I need to talk to Dr. Greer.
	Anyway, I don't really want to talk about this on the air a whole lot more right now, thank you.
	Just let me do what I can with this, and when the story and the time is right, if it is, We'll talk about it.
	From the high desert, this is Coast to Coast AM.
	I see trees of green, red and white.
	I see the wind, red across the sea.
	I see them bloom.
	I see them bloom for green years.
	And I think to myself, what a wonderful world.
	Call Art Bell toll free, west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-825-5033.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	Once again, if you haven't heard, if you know Danion Brinkley, Danion's in the hospital intensive care with a bleeding aneurysm
	on the right side of his brain.
	The colors of the rainbow, so pretty in the sky, are also on the faces.
	So, just on the chance, you know, that it might work, prayer or two, thought, something.
	Oh, boy.
	Kicks you right in the ribs, huh?
	I would hope that his friend and our mutual friend, Dr. Moody, has been notified.
	If not, I made a call during one of the breaks.
	We'll see.
	You know, if it's his time, he'll be called and he'll go.
	And the thing I guess to keep in mind is that Daniel was never afraid of it.
	And just wait.
	you See what happens.
	That's hard news.
	Hard news, you know?
	I don't like getting this kind of news while I'm on the air.
	So you will have to excuse me if I seem a little, um, put off.
	At any rate, uh, know it, Danny, and I'll come if you wish me to come.
	If you want me there, I'll be there.
	Just say it.
	Through, uh, Through your cousin, or through Raymond, or whoever.
	Or call me.
	Let's talk about the miracle of web TV.
	It is that.
	The web really is something, you know.
	I don't know if you're on the web yet, but if you're not, you should be.
	For the sake of your family and your children, there is no greater information source in the world right now than the Internet.
	In the case of what we've got to offer you for sale, it's all in a little black box.
	It's not a big computer system, a little black box.
	It has six built-in email addresses, parental controls, awesome graphics, easy-to-use remote controller, optional wireless keyboard.
	And when you sign up at $19.95 a month, which means unlimited use, you get free upgrades.
	Recently, they've added about 16.
	More are on the way.
	And the best deal of all is right now.
	They've got now the new Hewlett Packard color printer for WebTV.
	Hooray!
	It is the good one, the fastest in its class.
	The Lewis Brothers have the printer cable and adapter, all for $289.99.
	And believe me, that's less than you'll pay in stores.
	Or an even better package deal.
	Here it is.
	WebTV, the unit itself.
	The wireless keyboard.
	The entire printer setup I just described.
	In other words, a $700 value.
	And I have no idea how they're doing this, but they're selling it for $579.95.
	$579.95.
	Mention that price in stores.
	Try it.
	Go ahead.
	See if you can get that price on that package in any store.
	They'll laugh you right out of the store.
	or call the Lewis Brothers at 1-800-659-2669.
	That's 1-800-659-2669.
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	All right, another 20 minutes, so let's keep going here.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Yes, it's good to hear from you.
	It's good to hear from you.
	Okay, well, I'm glad to be here.
	I wanted to just talk to you about that lady you had on from Atlantis about two weeks ago.
	Oh, yes.
	I have a gentleman that I work with.
	He's in his 70s.
	His son lives in Alaska, and he knows a man by the name of Colonel Norman Vaughn.
	Who's 91, and he lives in Alaska.
	Now, he happens to be the only surviving member left over from the Byrds party, both of his expeditions to Antarctica.
	Boy, he'd be an interesting interview.
	Well, he would not be hard for you to get a hold of if you got some of your contacts up there in Alaska.
	I have contacts in Alaska.
	Well, his name is Norman Vaughn.
	Norman Vaughn, huh?
	And, uh, uh, Vaughn Mountain in Antarctica is named after him.
	But anyway, to make a long story short, Bill, who I work with, is in his 70s.
	Now, both these two characters are like your friend up there who climbs the towers still at 76.
	Vaughn is planning on going on a 900 mile dog sled trip, uh, through the Arctic here pretty soon, and he wanted Bill to come up there and go with him.
	But anyway, to make a long story short, Bill and I were listening to this lady on the radio, and she talked about how birds flew his plane into the inner earth down in Antarctica.
	Yes.
	Well, Bill called his son up in Alaska and said, get a hold of Norman and see what he has to say about all this.
	Right.
	Well, let me tell you, Norman, from what I understand, we heard from his son about a week later, and he has had about 100 letters and I don't know how many phone calls For people all over the country calling him, saying that this lady's talking about Bird going to the center of the Earth through a hole in the Antarctic.
	Well, now wait a minute.
	I'm not sure she said the center of the Earth.
	Well, okay, maybe not the center of the Earth, but she said the inner Earth.
	Inner Earth, yes.
	A big hole that he flew into the inner Earth.
	Right.
	And he got all kind of calls and letters, over a hundred people wanting to know, you know, what the scoop is.
	He says it's a bunch of bull, but he would still make it interesting.
	He would, yeah.
	But the thing was, I was surprised on how many people had already contacted him in that short period of time.
	Well, we've got a big audience, so I have learned that I've got to be careful about anything I say.
	Listen, where are you?
	Monroe, Louisiana.
	1440 Talk Radio, depend on it.
	I once lived in Monroe.
	Oh, you did?
	I work for KNOE.
	Okay, okay.
	I don't know if there's still KNOE down there.
	Well, they have a big TV station and they also have a little country station on the AM dial.
	Well, it used to be a rock and roll station.
	That's on the FM side.
	Well, no, it was AM then.
	It was a long time ago, my friend.
	Okay.
	And it was pretty interesting because I had never lived in the real deep south before, even though I was born in North Carolina.
	I've been more or less all over the country, but never in the real deep south, and that was my first experience.
	I remember answering the request lines down there, and people would ask me to play songs, and I couldn't understand a word they were saying.
	I mean, their accents, I was so unused to their accents, I couldn't understand a word they were saying.
	That was what, back in the fifties?
	Yeah, that was a long time ago.
	Well, you know, with modern television now, we've lost a lot of that.
	Now, we still have an accent, which I'm sure a lot of you people will think that I do.
	Well, no, you have one, but it's entirely understandable.
	Well, I had, at this other job that I had, my boss's mother called up there looking for him.
	And she was in her seventies, and she had one of these old-fashioned southern bell accents, and I didn't realize who it was at first.
	And when she called asking for my boss, I thought it was somebody pulling my legs.
	It was one of those true, hey darling type of things.
	I know.
	I can understand where you're coming from with those old accents, but a lot of that is really fading away because of television.
	Well, it was hard for me.
	I appreciate the call, sir.
	Thank you, and I'll follow up on Norman Vaughan if I can.
	I mean, there were times when people would call up and ask me to play something or another.
	And I had no clue what they were saying to me.
	And I used to have to say, OK, we'll get it on.
	After a while, of course, you begin to become accustomed to the accents.
	And then you start hearing things correctly.
	But it took a while.
	It was kind of a shock to my system.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Oh, hi, Art.
	It's the chief in Portland.
	Yes, hi.
	I wonder what happened to my favorite color, the perfect 10.
	She hasn't managed to get through for a long time now, but it's hard.
	There's a lot of people trying to get through.
	And then I also think that maybe towards the end of the hour, if we all put out the energy towards Daniel, like a healing energy towards him, possibly it might work.
	I want everybody to do that.
	Not just at the end of the hour.
	Yeah, but I think if we all did a concentrated set of things, say like a 258 or so.
	It's worth a try.
	Sure.
	And the third thing, you keep saying about Skellion.
	I am positive, Art, that he had said in his last show with you, he had said that the three part scenario does not come true.
	Regardless, by the end of 96, that California is going to be devastated, and the quakes are going to happen.
	I don't remember that.
	I remember him saying that again and again.
	He said, the cycle has to complete.
	At the time that I talked to him, we were two-thirds of the way through that cycle.
	Do you remember that?
	Yes, but I'm telling you, go back and check the tape.
	He did say that.
	If it doesn't complete, regardless, by the end of 96, you said that earthquakes are going to come in Southern California and a mass exodus is going to happen.
	Okay.
	We're in disagreement, but that's the way it is.
	I'll see if I can get hold of a tape.
	Yeah.
	All right?
	All right.
	Thanks a lot.
	Thanks.
	I remember very distinctly questioning him about cycle.
	He said before that could happen, that cycle would have to complete.
	That's what I recall.
	And I recall Diligently watching that cycle go around once, and then stop, go around twice, and then I began to get very concerned.
	And that is one of the junctures at which we had him on, and I don't ever recall him saying that no matter what, with regard to the cycle, the following would happen.
	I don't recall that.
	It may be, but I don't recall it.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Yeah, this is Jerry.
	I'm calling from Des Moines.
	I think I'm the first person in Des Moines that's ever called you.
	Am I correct?
	No.
	No?
	I listened to you for months ago.
	I got started from a person that works at the zoo.
	He said, you've got to listen to this Art Bell.
	He talks about UFOs and everything that you're interested in.
	We have a lot in common.
	I'm a mason myself.
	You are?
	Yeah.
	How long have you been a mason?
	How many years?
	Can't discuss it.
	I can.
	I've been going on 16 years.
	Okay.
	And I listen to your show, and I find it very interesting.
	In fact, I taught a course out of Area College in Des Moines on UFOs.
	Really?
	And I picked you up on what used to be called KIOA, and now they changed their call letter from K-X-T-A.
	Are you familiar with Des Moines?
	Changed from K-X-T-A, or they are now K-X-T-A?
	They used to be called KIOA.
	Uh-huh.
	And I used to be on the James Wayman Show, and I'd talk about UFOs, and they called me Information X.
	And I used to be on a lot of talk shows, and I've been in some of those old UFO magazines.
	Oh, yes?
	So, uh, we have a lot in common.
	I enjoy your show.
	I don't always believe everything I hear, but it's still... Well, neither do I. No, but who's to say that they're telling the truth, and who's to say that they're right or wrong?
	Okay, KXTK is our Des Moines affiliate.
	940 on the dial.
	10,000 watts.
	Big time.
	Yes.
	And I tried to get your book at Borders Bookstore.
	Hari-har.
	Really?
	Yes, they're all sold out.
	Well, hound them.
	Hound them.
	Oh, you know, they said, well, we can order it.
	So I'm going to do that.
	But no, they said it's very popular.
	They knew exactly what I was talking about.
	I didn't think they would.
	And I thought, you know, I'm not Des Moines.
	They wouldn't know this.
	Yeah, right.
	They did.
	They said, oh, yes.
	They said, we're all sold out.
	They said, we'll have the special ordered for you.
	How many copies do you think you've sold so far?
	There's 100,000 in print.
	And still going.
	Yeah, and still going.
	We're about to be on the bestseller list.
	How about that, huh?
	Now, here's the other thing that's weird.
	I started getting interested in UFOs when I was five years old.
	Well, I take it you've seen one?
	Yes, there have been a lot of people in Dwayne Dent.
	He saw one back in 1990.
	Yeah, that's all it takes.
	Now listen, I've got to run.
	Thank you very much.
	You know, once you've seen one, it changes your entire life.
	How can it not?
	To me, there are only two possibilities with regard to UFOs.
	Either they are something that our own government has that is so advanced that we don't even have a hint.
	And not even close.
	I mean, you know, we've got stealth technology, the F-117.
	I can imagine a generation or two beyond that that we might have that might surprise us.
	But it would be a natural progression.
	Not something capable of defying gravity.
	What I saw defied gravity.
	Period.
	Twice defied gravity.
	That's all.
	So, two possibilities.
	One, we have something so far ahead of what our government has admitted that we have, that if we were to find out about it, it would be a monstrous story, and there would be questions about where we got that technology.
	Or two, we are being visited by people from elsewhere.
	It is one of those two things.
	And once you have seen this for yourself, if it doesn't change your life, you're pretty thick.
	As my fifth grade teacher used to tell me, you're thick!
	I'll never forget her.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hi Art.
	Yeah, my thoughts and prayers are with Daniel Brinkley.
	Good.
	My mother was in the same situation and it's not a good situation.
	No.
	I do have a... It's actually even worse in Danion's case because... I know it is.
	You know when you're taking blood thinners.
	Right.
	Right.
	Not good.
	It's not good at all.
	I do pray for him on that.
	Call toll free 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-8255 Now see the way you just used it...
	Exactly, exactly.
	Anyway, go ahead.
	Okay. Alright, I'm gay.
	When someone says faggot, it depends on who you say it to and how you say it.
	In other words, within the black community, if you say it to a friend, if they refer to their friend as a nigger, it's being on a familiar term.
	Right, but if it's used in a negative connotation... Okay, you're gay, right?
	Yes.
	You said so.
	I hate the word faggot.
	Alright, you hate the word faggot.
	Yes.
	When you are with your friends, do you call each other faggots?
	Used to, when I was young.
	Don't do it now.
	I've never heard that.
	Of course, I'm not the gay Kennedy, but I've never heard that.
	Yeah, we use the term.
	We call each other faggots.
	Alright, I'm a white person.
	I don't ever hear white people calling each other hey whitey or hey honky or hey white trash or you know some derogatory term that would be attached to a white person.
	I don't ever hear that.
	In the 70's I used honky.
	We did hear that.
	I'm in the Washington area.
	From white people to white people?
	Yes.
	Absolutely.
	I've never heard.
	That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
	I've never heard it.
	In urban areas, I mean suburban areas, yes you do that.
	Okay.
	Well, live and learn I suppose.
	So it is common.
	It's just the way you use the word.
	And how familiar you are with the other person.
	Black on black.
	Even a white person with a black person.
	You can call them a nigger.
	But you must be friends with them.
	I don't know.
	Boy, in today's atmosphere out there... In today's society, it's very politically incorrect.
	Extremely politically incorrect.
	In today's atmosphere, I almost can't conceive... I suppose it could happen, but it's almost hard to conceive of.
	Unfortunately, I'm a professional.
	I'm a customer service manager.
	And we have the issue come up at work and believe me, when a customer calls a black person a nigger, it is not good and the person is extremely upset.
	But that same person will refer to another individual of the same race, a good friend, as a nigger in common terms without any problem.
	But if it's used negatively, then there's a problem.
	All right.
	Well, let me just say this.
	In today's atmosphere, in today's world, it's really hard to imagine a situation between the races where that would be used and would be considered anything but a horrendous racist insult.
	My only curiosity was about why blacks use it themselves with each other.
	And, uh, Whitestone, I don't think Hispanics do.
	I don't know.
	We waste so much time on this racism thing.
	Period.
	It's such a horrendous waste of human energy.
	That's what I've always thought of it as.
	Just a plain waste of human energy.
	Do we need to hate so much?
	Do we really need to hate so much?
	It's almost like a need.
	Maybe it's part of the human condition.
	That you've gotta hate.
	That you've gotta have an enemy.
	Maybe that's why we have wars.
	You know?
	So we can put all kinds of different people of different colors in ditches together and they can observe they all have the same color blood when they're hit with bullets.
	What's the Rockies?
	You're on the air.
	Hello.
	Good morning, Art.
	Rich from San Jose, California.
	How are you?
	Um, well, it's, um, well, anyway.
	I know my thoughts and prayers are going out to Daniel, and I enjoy him so much when he's on the show.
	And, uh, just hope he gets well.
	I hope so, too.
	I had a baby sister, 31 years old, with an aneurysm.
	We lost her five years ago.
	I'm sorry.
	And, uh, that was at the base of her neck.
	You know, my thoughts and prayers are out.
	On a brighter note, I got to talk to Mr. Fidget the other night.
	Oh, you talked to Mr. Fidget?
	He called me.
	I gave him my phone number when I sent him for a couple of fidgets there.
	And he gave me a call the next day.
	He surprised me.
	It's like hearing from a celebrity, huh?
	Yeah, yeah.
	He's a pretty nice guy.
	Mr. Fidget on the phone.
	All right, listen, my program is over, so you do it.
	Well, good night throughout the world and all from coast to coast and from Rich and San Jose and Art Bell.

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