Richard C. Hoagland, Tom Danley, Marv Czarnik, Ken Johnston, and Ron Nix debate anomalies in Egypt’s Great Pyramid—secret tunnels, acoustic cavities, and possible "ISIS chamber" activity—while questioning military flare explanations for Phoenix lights. On Mars, they expose Pathfinder imagery inconsistencies: cloned photo sections, a withdrawn high-res "Twin Peaks" image (later restored), and pyramid-like debris suggesting artificial structures, possibly tied to ancient grids and suppressed evidence. Hoagland’s claims provoke skepticism but underscore persistent doubts about NASA’s transparency, hinting at deeper agendas in planetary exploration. [Automatically generated summary]
Minnesota ESP from the high desert in the great American Southwest,
I bid you all good evening or a good morning, as the case may be on this Friday night, Saturday morning, across all these many time zones from the Hawaiian Tahitian Island chains in the west, eastward to the Caribbean, in the U.S. Virgin Islands, south into South America, north to the Bowl, and worldwide on the internet.
This is Coast to Coast AM, and what a program awaits you this evening.
In the first hour, it's Richard C. Hoagland, actually, he'll be with us throughout the night, with Tom Danley, the latter a former NASA consultant, acoustic expert, and recent member of the shore expedition to Giza.
And the subject here will be the secret tunneling inside the Great Pyramid.
As personally witnessed by Mr. Danley, and you may recall Daniel Brinkley talking of the digging going on beyond or above the king chamber, not down below.
We fear that may be the case.
In the second hour, Marv Zarnick and Ken Franklin with Richard Hogland, a subject there, accumulating operational anomalies around current Mars Pathfinder mission from the perspective of two seasoned NASA veterans.
And you actually might want to go up to the internet and take a very good look at what is offered on Richard's page.
You can do that through mine, and I have already done so and will do so again.
Hour three brings Richard Hoagland with Ron Nix, former Parsons Engineering Geologist, EPA consultant, and nuclear regulatory agency veteran, tasked with locating safe sightings geologically of accumulating nuclear wastes.
The subject there, an independent assessment of geological context of Pathfinder imagery relating to high-resolution views, super resolution actually, of one of the two twin peaks within a mile of the lander.
There is what I consider to be a very, very interesting story there.
And in the final hours, we will take lots of questions from the audience.
Now, a lot of the photographs that are going to be discussed regarding Mars are presently on Richard's page, which, of course, is accessible through mine.
There is something I've got to cover at the top of the program.
The hubbub arises once again in Phoenix.
This time, we're being told the lights in Phoenix were military flares.
It's all over Arizona.
Military flares, it says, rather than UFOs, might be behind those mysterious lights that caused such a stir in Arizona four months ago.
Visiting jets, it is said, from the Maryland Air National Guard were using high-intensity flares over a bombing range near Phoenix the night of March 13th.
When many people, as you know, reported seeing lights, military officials said Friday.
The flares would have created quite a light show in southwestern Arizona, where many people reported seeing the lights in a boomerang formation.
The lights captured on videotape created a media frenzy when the tape aired nationally last month.
We still don't know why it took so long for the tape to break nationally.
I got a call from an Arizona newspaper earlier today, and I asked the reporter who broke this story, or is it re-breaking the flare story, why the airplanes involved, Maryland Air National Guard, would not have transponders operating?
Because remember, the two controllers in the tower say they saw nothing.
And I would think that even military airplanes on a night mission of some sort would be required to have some sort of transponder operating just to protect civilian aviation.
But I am not an expert in this field.
The story broke in the Arizona Republic concerning a statement made by Captain Eileen Bynes, Benz, is it, of the Arizona National Guard, saying, of course, again, that the proof in the pudding is flares.
Now, she's saying not flares, as mentioned in the article, the Maryland National Guard in an exercise called Operation Snowbird flew west from Tucson.
This is from Bill Hamilton, to the Barrie Goldwater test range on the night of March 13th, and between 9.30 p.m. and 10 o'clock on that night, jettisoned magnesium flares before returning to Davis onthan Air Force Base.
These flares are extremely bright and white and illuminate the night and the terrain for miles.
You see, no one, according to Bill Hamilton I interviewed, could see those flares.
We could not see them either.
The reason, tall mountains obstructed our view, and more than one mountain range is in the line of sight.
We saw intense but softly glowing yellow orbs in formation in front of the Estrella Mountains, not more than five miles from our position.
Viewing these lights through a Celestron telescope brought their image up to about 366 yards.
They appeared to be pulsating orbs that did not glare, Nor did they produce a corona as seen with headlights and did not illuminate the mountains or terrain below.
At first, it looked like they were up on the side of the mountain, but moved extremely slowly in a line to the west without altering their relative positions.
The jettison flares would have shot out and glowed brightly at least 40 miles further south, and we would not have seen them at all.
The article said they could be visible for a distance of 150 miles, which I do not doubt if you have an unobstructed view of them from that distance.
Though Richard Motzer now claims this is the solution to the mystery as to what we saw and taped, it does not fit any of the facts.
It does not seem that too many people believe this new report answers any questions and certainly does not account for all of the other lights seen coming from the northern parts of the state.
It seems like we're stuck with just one more attempt to solve this mystery without actually interviewing the witnesses or investigating the reports or subjecting the video to analysis.
It is a good thing that we do not depend on the National Guard or Air Force to investigate UFO sightings.
We seem to have an endless parade of balloons, flares, and dummies to account for these events.
Sincerely yours, Bill Hamilton.
So the hubbub in Phoenix over the lights continues once again being called flares, but I have questions, as does Bill Hamilton.
My question is, what about transponders?
Are military aircraft not required to run them?
And if not, wouldn't that seem to be a terrible hazard to civilian navigation?
Maybe somebody can answer that question for me, particularly in night flight situations.
And then, of course, you've got Bill Hamilton's, I think, questions that absolutely must be answered.
At any rate, off and running with Richard C. Hoagland in a moment.
Are you one of the new numbers?
That's 888-GOLD G-O-L-D-K-R-C.
And now to the new home of Richard C. Hoagland, who is now a southwesterner in, as a matter of fact, in or near Albuquerque, New Mexico.
Is that the way we ought to call Richard C. Hoagland?
I am sitting here, a mile and a half from the sky, looking at this gorgeous view, 360 degrees, stars that will not quit, a quarter moon about to rise in an hour, and far to the southeast, about a quarter of the way around the world, Art,
as we were starting this program this morning, the helical rising of Sirius in the dawn skies over Cairo, Egypt, over the Great Pyramid, the close of this 1,461-year Phoenix-Sothic cycle that we discussed last week in Phoenix, Arizona, literally closes and begins.
It's the arcur.
It's the beginning of the end and the end of the beginning.
The timing is stunning because this announcement is made literally on the last day of this so-called Phoenix cycle, first of all.
Second, you mean to tell me that we have enough National Guard pilots coming in from out of state, from Maryland, into Arizona, that no one remembered that this was all going on that night, even after all this national hubbub and the governor and the mayor and Francis and Senator McCain and, you know, pundits and Coppel inquiring.
And nobody remembers the National Guard from the state of Maryland was actually out there that night until they?
There was a pilot of a commercial jet, I think it was a 737, leaving from Sky Harbor, who reported that the V-shaped object with the lights was right above him.
And there was no, not only no transponder, but at that close range, the tower should have painted on A-10s, which is what the National Guard is claiming they were flying, what they call skin track.
Radar signals literally off the metal of the airplane's skin.
Look, this is as silly as the Air Force dummy thing for Roswell.
This is getting worse and worse.
If these are the people charged our national defense, we're in trouble.
You know, it's the same caliber of Saturday Night of the Movies or Keystone Cops that we're going to talk about in the next hour or two regarding the operations of the Pathfinder mission.
Which is why we have Marvin and Ken coming on in an hour from now or so.
Because professional people who do what they do in their daily activities cannot be this incompetent or this out of touch unless someone is mandating that they appear to be.
Okay, that notwithstanding, what we want to do at the top of this evening is to segue nicely to the pyramids.
As you know, this is the dawn in Cairo when the close of this week that began on the 20th commences.
This is the end of the cycle, the beginning of the next, with the helical rising of Sirius.
Now, we were projecting that in this mysterious secret tunneling that was being done, some kind of ceremony to inaugurate this new Sothic cycle would take place at this dawn at Eza, even as we are speaking now.
And I have been in touch this week with Larry Hunter, who was back in Egypt, our eyes and ears, with all of his colleagues and Confederates and people he's known for like 20 years, watching over everything.
So if anything is going on, in a few hours we should know.
Larry has been telling us that there is a set of secret rooms lower down in the pyramid.
And that what we were suspecting and what he apparently confirmed with his photographs was tunneling from above the king's chamber in an effort to go down and connect with these rooms.
Daniel Brinkley reports, indeed, in a discussion with Zahi Hawas, he confirmed, Zahi confirmed, they are digging, but it is all above the king's chamber.
I had two calls from Mohammad Sheridan, who is the editor of Elwat, which is the major opposition newspaper in Cairo.
He and Larry Hunter, literally, you know, the old joke about bearding the lion in his den, they went to Hawass's office and they had tea.
And Hawass was deferential to Sheridan because he represents a significant editorial opinion in Cairo.
But he was incensed that Larry would have the temerity to come to his office and sit down and ask for tea.
And the whole, you know, big soap opera went on about that.
The confrontation basically revolved around the data we put on our website relating to the pyramid, relating to the potential secret tunneling and the bags of limestone that are photographed and are clearly there in the article that we published.
The only thing he said he was doing was cleaning hieroglyphics upstairs above the king's chamber.
Now, this is pretty amazing because there are no hieroglyphics upstairs above the king's chamber.
There are some red painted dog marks, which Howard Weiss found in 1837, which are in dispute between Egyptologists and others as to whether they were even part of the original pyramid construction.
There is a major contention by Zachariah Sitchin that they are fakes.
And he provides good data that they, in fact, were faked by Howard Weiss back in 1837.
So Hawass is upstairs cleaning them.
Now, here's a problem.
The upper level chambers are made of granite.
They are composed of 70-ton blocks, which have been cracked by massive earthquakes in the last several thousand years, of granite slabs placed crosswise across the king's chamber in five relieving chambers up above.
The bags of limestone that Larry and company found and that Mr. Danley is going to confirm in his discussion in a few minutes would be absolutely ill-suited, if not silly, to be used to repair or to restore granite blocks.
This limestone is so friable, I mean, you have a chunk of it, right?
The idea that you would repair granite with limestone is not even worthy of discussion.
What is crucial, of course, in resolving this contention, which Hawas is claiming nothing's going on, I claim from my sources that there's a lot going on, and Daniel Brinkley claims from talking to Hawas that Hawas is admitting there's something going on.
Somewhere in all of this, we've got to get the story straight.
So what I recommended tonight is that we get hold of Tom Danley, who was there in November with the shore expedition.
And Wonder of Wonders actually had free time and wound up upstairs above the king's chamber in the very tunnel that we're discussing as it was being begun.
We only have a couple of minutes here, a minute or so before the break, but you confirm what Richard just said that, in fact, you crawled up there yourself.
unidentified
Yes, I, in the process of doing the measurements, was in all of the chambers.
And there is a tunnel that goes, Oh, gosh, I would guess about 50 feet at the time that I was there.
And it's interesting that you bring up the possibility of a ceremony or something because in two places in that tunnel, it is expanded out to be something like, well, a small room enough to get perhaps 10 or 12 people in.
As the night wears on, those with computers, or access, I guess I ought to say, to the World Wide Web are going to have a big advantage because they're going to be able to see what we are going to no doubt be in some dispute about.
There's a whole range of photographs taken by the Mars Pathfinder and its little bug friend, Gate Lewis, from San Diego writes that KNSD-TV, the NBC affiliate in San Diego, ran the same old March 13th video and explained it again as flares.
This time, they were more explicit.
According to the Air Force, they were flares dropped by A-gens over this, get this, Barry-Goldwater range.
So confirming that.
Moreover, sorry, no mention of any dummies, but they did say, and this is worthy of questions, the flares were attached to parachutes to keep them aloft for five, one, two, three, four, five minutes.
And now all they need to do is account for the other 101 minutes or so that witnesses claim they saw all of this.
Once again, Richard C. Hoagland and Tom Danley, a former NASA consultant and acoustic expert.
Yeah, Tom, why don't you, before we launch into this remarkable adventure you had in the pyramid, and we're very envious, I got to tell you that, why don't you give people kind of a thumbnail sketch as to who you are and how you wound up having this interesting adventure?
unidentified
Okay, well, my area of interest is acoustics, which is sound and electronics.
And specifically, most of my career have designed transducers.
That's things that convert electricity into sound like a speaker or, going the other way, microphones.
I worked for a company called Intersonics in Northbrook, Illinois, building the transducers that were used to produce acoustic levitation, which requires very intense sound.
And I was filmed by the crew that was filming a movie called Mystery of the Sphinx demonstrating that.
Well, we built space hardware using the acoustic levitation to manufacture new materials that were processed at such high temperatures that there weren't any containers available.
So what we would do is levitate the sample in the middle of a furnace.
And then to make the job easier, that was done in zero gravity.
And we flew payloads on two shuttle flights and some sounding rocket flights and, you know, that kind of stuff.
Well, the same producer, Boris, called me and asked me if I could take measurements inside the pyramid of the acoustics because it has anyone who's ever been inside There is usually struck by the sound properties, especially if you're laying in the sarcophagus in the king's chamber.
So he asked me to take a look at the mechanical drawings of the place and see if I could guess what I might find.
So I did that analysis and then he said, well, good.
Get your equipment together because you're going to Egypt.
So he sent me over there with a film crew and we spent, gosh, I spent four nights in the pyramid after all the visitors had left.
Those are good pictures, too, much better than the ones I took.
Anyway, once you're in the first layer above the king's chamber, it has a ceiling that's about three feet high or so, maybe a little bit higher.
And while the other guys were dragging the batteries and the lights and the camera up, I was looking around and saw a hole in the wall, which I had read in the Tompkins book, was a robber's cave from a long time ago.
Anyway, I went in there and it went in about, well, the wall is about almost three feet thick, so it went in three feet and then turned.
Now, this wall is the granite wall on the south side of that first chamber, the so-called Davidson's chamber above the Grand Gallery, above the King's Chamber.
unidentified
Correct.
That's exactly right.
And it goes for maybe eight or ten feet, and then there's sort of a small spherical cavity, almost round, that was carved in.
The tunnel continued from that point, and all of it looked completely new from that point on.
And so you can clearly tell when you got old limestone, which has been crawled over and crawled over and crawled over, and then you break into brand new tunneling.
unidentified
Yeah, it really showed up quite well.
In fact, you could still see the little white marks from the chisels that they used there to chisel out the limestone.
Well, let's let Tom describe, because this tunnel is so interesting.
And then he went and looked in another part of the pyramid and found the bags of the stuff from the tunnel.
unidentified
Well, the new work extended for, gosh, 30 or 40 feet, perhaps.
It's kind of hard to tell because you're on your hands and knees the whole time, but it's a good long distance.
And it ended in a, well, not exactly a spherical cavity also, but a fairly large room, maybe six by six feet or six by eight feet, something like that.
Well, now you're describing it as a room, but again, I want to suggest it probably was not an intended room.
They probably reached a point where they thought something is very near us.
Let's enlarge it.
unidentified
Yep.
Yeah, it's certainly not hewn out with the precision of most of the other places I went in, you know, where they bother to make square corners and stuff like that.
This is basically just carved out and much, much bigger than the tunnel was to begin with.
And we got confirmation from Larry's trip that a guard had seen certain people entering and putting equipment into that shaft in the Queen's Chamber way down below in October.
Then in November, first, you know, another member of the shore expedition and now Tom report first-hand witness testimony that there is a tunneling project going on just a few days or maybe a week or two after that ceremonial entry on October 20th.
What do either one or both of you think they are looking for?
unidentified
Boy, I, you know, I don't have a clue personally, but one of the things that really did impress me about the pyramid was that it was so large that you could have quite a few other unknown rooms in there without any trouble at all.
That is an absolutely colossal structure.
And the people that built it were clever enough to hide other things, too, if they had chosen to.
And I think that they're trying to find an access route to what I call this ISIS chamber, which is the chamber proposed to be behind the Gentenbrink door.
Now, if you look at a side view of the pyramid and you look at the way the known rooms are spaced in it, in a kind of a planned view looking from east to west, you've got down below the Queen's Chamber, up above that the King's Chamber.
On the left-hand side of the diagram to the south, you've got this sloping shaft at 40 degrees that goes 188 feet up, and then there's this little door.
And the shaft is, what, eight inches wide, right, Tom?
That's the so-called star shaft or air shaft, although it was never an air shaft.
Above that, in the Davidson's chamber, in this tunnel that you were in, if you were to strike now off that tunnel heading west at right angles to the south, you would intercept like a right triangle that proposed room.
And those two widened spaces, I would imagine, are the places where they calculate if they send shafts south horizontally, they will intercept that room at two separate places, or one will intercept and the other might miss.
In other words, they're trying to find a way to find out how big it is by getting over to it through two separate shafts.
Well, that would be where you would be digging your 90-degree tunnel to the south, and you would need to have room to actually fill the bags and bring the bags out.
In other words, they're like waste stations.
Now, go to the bags, Tom.
Tell him where you found the bags.
unidentified
Okay, well, after that layer, we went up to the next level.
And when we crawled through the hole into that cavity...
And in fact, we had some very rickety, non-OSHA-approved ladders.
But if I hadn't had somebody help me, I don't think I could have gotten up into the top one by myself because you don't appreciate how big everything is until you're there.
Anyway, after taking the measurements in the first layer, we went up one, and as I crawled through the opening there, I noticed on the wall right along to the left of where you enter the room, a large pile of burlap bags full of tailings from, I presume, down below.
It's hot, it's dusty, there's gravity, and instead of digging the tunnel and filling the bags and taking them down, they take them up and hide them in the next upper chamber.
Tell them, Tom, what happened when you got his guy in there?
unidentified
Well, we were accompanied by a person they call an inspector who was in charge of security for that area at the time.
And when we came out that night, I told him that I had found this cave, and I had to explain it to him a couple times because he was kind of disbelieving and asked me to draw a map, so I did.
And then the next day, the next evening we were there, he borrowed one of our miner's lights and climbed up inside there to look for himself.
And sure enough, he saw exactly what I was talking about.
He works for, I think he's one level isolated from Zahi.
Tom Danley and Richard C. Hogelin, presently our guests, and we are discussing what's going on in Egypt, trying to figure out what's really going on on the plateau.
I'm Art Bell, and from the high desert, perhaps not quite as high as Richards, this is the CBC Radio Network.
Coming back in a moment with Richard C. Hoagland is Tom Danley, a former NASA consultant and acoustic expert who crawled where hardly any man has crawled before in the pyramid, telling us all kinds of interesting things that are going on up there.
And so we'll get back to them in a moment.
One of our next guests, Marv Zarnick, and Ken Franklin specifically.
Ken, if you're out there listening, you better call my private number and give us your number because, Ken, somehow it has disappeared from Richard's Rolodex, and I never did get it from you, presuming Richard had it.
So if Ken Franklin is out there, he needs to call my private number and slip us his private number.
There is, once again, a great controversy in Phoenix about the lights back on March 13th, saying there was a Maryland Air National Guard group of A-10s that dropped them and that they would have lasted for five minutes by parachute.
Mike in Campbell, California says, hi, Art.
The explanation for the extra 101 minutes is simple and obvious, isn't it?
Yet another example of time compression.
All right, now back to Richard C. Hoagland, really up in the mountains in New Mexico near Albuquerque.
Anyway, Tom, why don't you finish with this segue in terms of the bags?
Because when you went and got the inspector, and he evidenced really interesting surprise, a guy who works for Hawas, this raises a really interesting speculation as to what might be going on.
So why don't you wrap that part of it up?
unidentified
Okay.
Well, I did, like I said before, it did take some explanation before he appeared to really believe what I was saying about the digging and stuff.
And I couldn't really tell from his reaction why he was reluctant to tell his boss.
You know, it could be that since he was in charge of security there that maybe this doesn't look good for him or his boss or exactly what, I'm not sure.
But so far as I know, he certainly was going to tell his boss and take him up there.
Now, as an acoustic expert, could you give us a feel for the acoustics of the place?
If you were in the king's chamber and someone was upstairs digging, could you hear it?
unidentified
Probably not, unless they were out over the middle of the ceiling.
Granite actually conducts sound pretty well.
And in other words, if you're on the other side of the ceiling, even though the slabs are four or five feet thick, I wouldn't be surprised if you could hear.
Maybe you could even hear them working in the area adjacent to that.
The thing is, during the day, there are so many tourists going in and out that that would certainly muffle a sound.
So you could have crews upstairs digging with little picks and adzes in that dark, small, confined, terribly dusty, hot place, filling the bags, which was the reason for those rooms, those enlargements, then hauling them up to the next level chamber, and the tourists coming in down below, one flight down, would never even know it.
unidentified
Oh, absolutely.
Just the hole in the wall at the top of the grand gallery where you access the first layer, that's about 40 feet off the ground.
So they're, you know, and then that's, they would have to go through two 90-degree turns in the tunnel in order to get into that room.
So it would be pretty secluded.
I should mention, too, there another location that I saw someone had been working, although I don't know if it was recently, was in the Queen's Chamber.
As you enter into the room on the left side, there's what looks like the entryway to a room.
Yeah, well, what I saw on the one that the robot was in were two reflections.
One of them was about 30 feet before the end.
What I measured on both of them is the longest distance was 212 feet, and the second reflection on the one with the door would have been about 30 feet short of that.
Now, this is important because Gantenbrink's robot measured the distance from where the air shaft starts, where it starts to bend up, to the door as around 185 or so feet.
If Tom is seeing two double reflections, then he's seeing maybe the door, which is the end of the shaft, and then he's getting an echo from the sound leaking through the crack under the door, hitting the far wall of the ISIS chamber at 212 feet.
unidentified
Yes, it would have to be something like that.
In fact, the echoes were strong enough where it would have to be something fairly substantial behind the door, or around the door.
I don't know what's up there, but both reflections were nice and strong, so it wasn't a case of, well, maybe there's a reflection.
And I repeated the measurement a number of times, and it was the same.
So there's a 30-foot cavity or room behind that door, and that's the one where the tunnels, I believe, in our model, were going.
And if I'm right, at the very moment we're on the air this morning, half a world away in Egypt, there is a secret ceremony presided over by some very interesting people celebrating the close of this Phoenix cycle and the dawn of the new South IC Phoenix cycle for the next 1,400 years.
Let's connect the dots between Egypt and a place about 50 million miles away called Mars.
As you know, about a week or so ago, we were in Phoenix, Arizona, presiding over a set of symposia talking about a potential connection between Phoenix, Egypt, and the Pathfinder mission.
And one of the things that we pointed out is that this is a very special time in the Egyptian mythos because literally tonight, tomorrow morning now in Egypt already, is the end of a 1,400-plus year cycle,
the so-called Sothic cycle, which is when Sirius, the bright dog star, the brightest star in the sky, 8.7 light years away, the central star in the Egyptian pantheon representing the goddess Isis, rises just before sunrise and in a fashion termed the helical rising, just before dawn.
That cycle repeats in a very elegant 1,461 years.
It appears to have been the genesis of the so-called Phoenix legend, the legend of the Banu bird that is reborn after immolating itself in the ashes of its nest.
It has all kinds of metaphorical and mythological implications and intimations for humankind and civilization and reincarnation and all of those grand ideas that the Egyptians were well known for.
Well, as you know, and as Ken has helped me uncover, there is apparently a small group of people inside NASA, inside the space agency, which have not only held to these identical ancient Egyptian beliefs,
but they have imprinted them indelibly in the fingerprints of the landings and launchings and coordinates of most of the major missions of the American Space Program, much to everyone's astonishment.
And Marvin, since you haven't been with us on the program since about a year ago when you were at the National Press Club, you might tell Art your reaction when you saw this data for the first time, given that you participated in the calculations, the equations, and the orbit plots basically devising these launchings and landings.
unidentified
Well, my very strong impression was that none of that could happen by circumstance.
It would have to be meticulously planned to have the mission occur the way that it did.
And the probability of that happening on its own is extremely remote.
You might give our audience a thumbnail background on your own history and your own involvement with the aerospace community.
unidentified
Yeah, I'd be glad to.
I was with McDonnell Douglas for 37 years and worked on the manned spacecraft program through Mercury, Gemini, Skylab, Apollo, and Shuttle, and did a lot of mission planning and writing mission rules for several of the Gemini missions.
And I understand enough about mission planning that just about everything is taken into account to make the mission end the way you want it to end.
If you wanted to land at a specific spot on the moon at a specific time, it takes meticulous planning all the way back to the launch pad.
Yeah, and, you know, obviously there's been some controversy because we were projecting, based on this pattern that Marvin has just been commenting on, going back to the lunar program, that there might be some ambiguity and they might be planning surreptitiously to delay the landing of Pathfinder to the 20th.
And there was some contention at the moment of landing as to whether I agree we were on Mars.
And what I basically said was, look, let's take a wait-and-see attitude because we'll make two columns.
We'll make a column where the data supports that we're there.
We'll make another column where there are anomalies and irregularities.
Given what we are going to announce tonight, and we have chosen this program, the Ark Bell Show, on the morning of the 26th, which will take place in another half hour, all right, in the United States, to make a rather remarkable major announcement of a discovery we have made, our team, our effort, our enterprise mission here, in terms of the Pathfinder data.
There is now no doubt in my mind that A, we are on Mars, B, we are at 19.5, and this was part of the plan.
See, the problem is that we're, the three of us, Ken and Marvin, myself, are approaching this from a technical engineering perspective.
The problem is that the guys on the other side, the guys who are running the politics of this, are approaching it from a political perspective.
So their decisions are difficult sometimes to reverse engineer because they can change.
It's like a pitcher who throws a change-up at the last minute.
And what we're looking for here is the larger pattern that is being served by the various events and the various facts we uncover.
Well, we have now discovered the missing puzzle pieces, and it has to do with Pathfinder's specific, and I'm going to say it on the air tonight, apparently serendipitous, surreptitious mission.
There are two missions going on.
There's the mission we're getting to see on television, which is kind of Mickey Mouse, and our guys are going to describe that In a minute.
And then there apparently is the real mission where we have had a major leak, a major insight, a window into what Pathfinder is really doing there.
And we're going to describe what that entails, where the data is, how to look at it on the website, and the steps we're going to take in the coming days, including the invitation to your audience to help us verify this discovery as we proceed through the rest of this mission.
Well, so far, from a layman's point of view, and any of you are welcome to comment on this, all I've seen them find is red rocks without major change from what they would expect to find from a red rock here on Earth.
What apparently is going on is that we're being shown red rocks.
But if you start looking at the photographs on the NASA website, which of course now and for Phoenix, I've had extensive time to go onto the web, download, look at meticulously, you find some astonishing weirdness in the way this data is being laid out.
Most of the people out there tonight who have computers may have started with these little handheld scanners.
You probably had one yourself, Art, before we had the big flattened.
And the handheld scanner was nice, except that if you wanted to scan large sections of print or pages or whatever, you had to have a program that would stitch the scans together.
Okay, what I have noticed, Richard, is, from a layman's point of view, that there are lighter and darker exposures, and that's how I'm able to tell where the stitching occurs.
And I think what you're probably saying is that the stitching is not accurate.
Well, the thing I was talking about is the imaging.
We have come now 20 years down the road from Viking.
And remember, I was with Walter and I was at JPL and I lived that Viking experience every day during that incredible summer in 1976.
The technology that we had to prosecute Viking, this billion-dollar mission, with much more primitive cameras and much more primitive DSN, deep space network operations, et cetera, et cetera, was amazing.
It was seamless.
It was flawless.
When you look at the panoramas produced from those scans, they're cruder, they're lower resolution because the iTech scanning system was not CCD technology.
It wasn't what's in the IMP camera on Pathfinder now.
But the whole technology around it was working coherently so much better.
Now, we have modern digital computers, we have laptops, we have the internet, we have microencoders.
They know where this camera is pointed to within fractions of a fraction of a degree.
And there are programs that exist, which you can download from the internet yourself, that would allow one to seamlessly stitch together with no flaws from the lander right onto the horizon within an hour or so all these pictures.
And yet when you look at the web, when you look at what NASA's putting out there, it's amateur night.
Is that an accurate statement, Ken, amateur night?
unidentified
Well, I was going to point out to Richard the fact that 28 years ago when we were doing the panoramas on the Apollo lunar portions, we were actually taking the real photos himself and cutting them and splashing together and did an even better job back then to line up the themes, as you would call them, of the different horizons, the different rocks, et cetera.
And these pictures we're getting back from Mars, I mean, they're off by centimeters almost.
What is most disturbing to me is that, you know, there's a device in digital computer programs now, like Photoshop or PhotoStyler or any of those graphics, that allows you to take a cutout, move it over, and then paste it in another part of the scene.
I can show you, and what we probably should do on our website in the next few days, is to list examples, show examples where given scenes have been cloned, have been duplicated over and over, where rocks are literally Two or three times moved up to the left, to the right, and around.
And the general impression is: if you see straight edges or see anomalies, instead of saying, Oh my god, this is an anomaly on Mars, the impression is going to be, oh, it's an anomaly in the stupid photo processing, and then you discount all anomalies in the scene.
And that appears to be a very careful, deliberate, political, conscious act.
The technology is there to do it perfectly, and it's not being used, and it was being used 10, 20, 30 years ago.
What we're seeing is very interesting anomalies in the foreground, which get even more interesting as you go to the background.
And again, there's a context to all this.
If we didn't have this stunning leak that we're going to talk about in a few minutes, which is on the web, which is the super-resolution view of the right twin peak in the frame, in the horizon, about a half a mile away,
if that hadn't deliberately been put out on the NASA press conference on Tuesday when they regained communication with the lander after losing it for about a day and a half between the 19th and 20th, remember they had a communications problem again with the lander.
Anyway, when they came back and announced there, we're back press conference, all right?
Dr. Peter Smith at the University of Arizona, who is the principal scientist, the principal investigator on the lander imaging experiment, the IMP camera, laid out a series of new images, including something called the Presidential Panorama, which was apparently taken on the 20th, which is kind of remarkable.
What I heard on CNN, and maybe one of the other two gentlemen here, Marv or Kim, can comment on this, is that they had missed by 10 minutes the communication window with Pathfinder.
Now, how do they miss by 10 minutes a communication time?
unidentified
Richard, let me jump in on that one, if I may.
Back when we were doing the lunar flights, when we would have the spacecraft go behind the moon, we would be preparing for AOS or acquisition of signal.
We could pinpoint right down to the fraction of a minute when the spacecraft would come around and it would be able to see the Earth and we'd be able to acquire the signal.
Now, we're talking about 28, 30 years ago that we were doing this with computers extremely crude compared to the modern laptop we have today.
And this is from a spacecraft which is orbiting, not sitting on the surface, but orbiting a body which is subject to solar tidal influences, mascons in the moon, irregularities, all which could be modeled 30 years ago in those big old mainframe computers and accurate predicts given.
So within fractions of a second, the astronauts can.
Remember how they used to say that they had such confidence in Houston because literally to a fraction of a second, the Earth disappeared when it was supposed to and reappeared when it was supposed to?
unidentified
That was one of the most comforting things that they talked about, that they knew exactly when they lose the signal and exactly when they come in.
And you were pointing out that the moon is orbiting around the Earth, it's rotating, and the Earth is moving, et cetera.
Whereas you don't have nearly as complicated a scenario when you're looking at just Mars and the Earth.
It can't be an oversight unless we've thrown away 35 years of experience in running missions.
Someone out there at the control site should have been yelling into the headsets that, hey, you've got five minutes to go or ten minutes to go to loss of signals.
Could it be that they were all overtired and they just died?
You would think that one person might miss it, but not a control room full of people.
unidentified
That's my point.
There isn't just one person involved.
There's several, and each one is monitoring the other, and they're looking at data on screens, and everybody knows what the next action is, and who's got it, and when he's got to have it ready.
Well, it's even more interesting because we've had now seven months of crews when basically the lander teams, the lander engineers, the scientists, the operations people, had nothing to do but wait and to practice and to simulate.
Well, we've got on the website this amazing breakthrough.
And tonight's program, Mark, is going to go down in the record books because not only is it the beginning of the next Phoenix cycle, but we think we have been given, leaked from inside, a window on the real Pathfinder mission.
Now let's back up a minute.
Remember, we did not land at a random place on Mars.
Now the latitude of your landing on a planet is invariant.
In other words, it doesn't depend on a human convention on civilization deciding latitudes and longitudes.
It's determined by the spin axis of a planet.
Now how we divide it into numbers is human-derived, but the actual position is invariant relative to the rotation axis of the planet.
The longitude, you know, where you are west or east of a given meridian line going from pole to pole, that is an arbitrary convention.
Now, what the International Astronomical Union did about 100 years ago and modified maybe in the 60s when the space program was really going and we were getting our first mission, Mariner 4 to Mars, is they established the equivalent of Martian Greenwich, which is a line which runs from the pole down through a region called Meridiani Sinus, which means central meridian, town of the South Pole.
It is about 9.5 degrees east of this place we call Sidonia.
It is about 33 degrees and change east of where Pathfinder has landed in the terrestrial 360 coordinate system.
If, however, you say that that's a modern invention and that the stuff at Sidonia and the DNM pyramid really marks the original Martian prime meridian left by the guys who left the stuff we've been looking at,
and there's a lot of reason to think that that's true, most important of which is the discovery by Carl Monk, this ex-Air Force engineer who's been working on the geodetic data that I talk about at the UN, that has been able to synchronize the location of Sidonia with this ancient grid he has discovered of the sites from Stonehenge to Giza, the Indian Mounds to Mexico City to Takao, to Guatemala, all over the world.
These ancient monuments on Earth sync up to this ancient Sidonia grid for Mars.
Well, I didn't because I didn't have a physics reason.
I was looking at it symbolically.
I thought maybe they were going for the symbolism of the 19.5.
But now that we found what we found, which we will definitely get to in the rest of this evening's program, it now is clear why this site was selected, and it's also becoming a bit clearer as to who might have quietly and surreptitiously pushed inside NASA the selection of this site.
Either Marv or Ken, gentlemen, regarding the location that we are now presently said to be on Mars, is there anything that either one of you have seen, and I know we'll go into detail, that does not look like rocks?
I mean, that suggests there is any unnatural formation Or something that shouldn't be there?
unidentified
Well, this is part of, I was reviewing the images again tonight, and there's one of the more recent panoramics that's number 81205 in NASA's numbering system on the website.
And if you go to the far right of that image, you see some things on the horizon that look extremely interesting.
Vertical sides to formations.
And unfortunately, you know, you would just love to go there and get a closer look.
But unfortunately, NASA says that the maximum range of the rover is 500 meters, you know, which is less than the half a mile that Richard mentioned earlier, and not very far, not far enough to go investigate that interesting-looking object.
What they would have to do is to basically use that time with the IMP camera on the lander to pick those locations where there is interesting stuff, where they're going to send the rover without telling us or with having these weird downtime communications so that we will not expect to get any data during those periods of time.
In the model that there is a dual mission going on.
Now, let me get back to why this site is critical.
Because it seems to be that what we've landed in is the middle of an ancient city, another counterpart to Sidonia.
It's buried under the floodplain of all the detritus and all the rubble and all the junk that flowed down from the southern highlands when all hell broke loose.
And these floods, 10,000 times the volume of the water of the Amazon in flood flowed down across this plain.
Now, what was left sticking up out of this flood, out of this boulder field, this detritus, this sand and mud and gravel and all kinds of other junk that basically settled in this vast river valley, sticking up a half a mile away, apparently are the tips of two Sidonia-type arcology pyramids.
One of them is still closed, so we're seeing the exterior facing.
Richard C. Hoakland with Marv Zarnick and Ken Johnston, both NASA veterans.
Richard C. Hoagland is telling us that at the present location or near the present location, where Pathfinder is in Rover, there is a city buried beneath that entire area, that floodplain area.
And that, I believe, is what NASA is really investigating.
And I think that's exactly what he's telling us.
If I'm wrong, we'll find out in a moment.
All right.
I am receiving many, many taxes from the Phoenix area.
Richard Hoagland suggested there would be an occurrence between the 20th and the 26th that would be connected to Phoenix or have to do with Phoenix.
And Richard, all the people want to know exactly what it is you think occurred.
And what it appears to have been is the set of stunning photographs, which are on the web, of the tip of a buried pyramid with the roof all torn off so we can see the guts inside.
That's what we're talking about.
Part of an ancient complex that was specifically sited by whoever built this stuff on Mars at 19.5 north and 22.5 west of Sidonia.
Gentlemen, Richard is suggesting there is at least a part or a portion of a pyramid that can be seen or discerned by these high-resolution photographs.
Your comments, please.
unidentified
Okay, this is Ken.
Before we jump, we're going to test that real good, but there's something you brought up a little bit earlier having to do with the range of the rover.
You recall when the Pathfinder landed on Mars, they were amazed that with that little approximate four-inch antenna, they actually tracked it all the way down to the Martian surface.
Just a pure pristine community, such as on the moon when we communicated with the astronauts on the surface, and then with the rovers, we got several kilometers away from the limb.
We had all kinds of sophisticated communication, but it was line of sight.
Well, the computer, and if you carefully read the specs on the mission, the little rover, the little Sojourner, which of course is a special sacred title in Masonic tradition, the principal sojourner, has its onboard AI program where when it loses communication with the lander, it then will retrace its steps.
It will literally back up until it re-establishes communication.
And then it will take an alternative path, and if it loses it there, it'll back up, and it'll keep doing that like an insect.
And, I mean, look, just think of this from a larger perspective.
We've spent $150 million to send this spacecraft in two parts, a stationary base station and a device on wheels with cameras and that X-ray gadget.
And we build it so that it almost can't function beyond a tablecloth length from the lander.
And it's going to drop dead because its batteries can't be recharged in a week, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
In other words, Marvin is of the opinion that I'm of the opinion that, in fact, we're being fed a bunch of stories here.
And in fact, in the dual mission scenario, the reason that the public is being told it can't do this and it can't do that and it can't do anything else is to give them the cover when it goes and does all these neat things and tests this extraordinary new data.
They're not going to be able to tell us because they don't have to tell us.
All right, so you are basically claiming there is beneath the surface, the rocky red surface we see, virtually a city and that the hills or the twin peaks, at least one of them, conceals a pyramid.
If you look at our website and you look at the composite photographs taken from orbit, the Viking shots that were used to make the maps that are part of the mission profile that NASA itself put out, they've now identified from the landing site, you'll see these blue lines radiating in various directions, locating features on the horizon around the lander with the IMP camera.
There is directly to the north something called the knob.
To the southeast, I'm sorry, southwest, just about 10 degrees to the south of west, there are the twin peaks.
As you go around the horizon, there are various features that can be identified.
We know exactly now within a few meters of where we've landed this thing.
Half a mile away is this northern twin peak.
Well, if you look at the orbital photographs, which have been put together, composited using this super resolution technology, which I'll describe in a few minutes, they are able to get much better resolution, between 8 and 10 times the resolution of the raw data.
That means that if the raw data was like 40 meter resolution from Viking, we can get down to 4 meters or maybe 6 meter resolution.
Can you imagine what we can do with this technology at Sidonia if we can apply it to the existing data?
What we know that they have done, because they have said this on the website, particularly the AIMS group, the NASA Ames Group, which is linked to the Mars Pathfinder site.
And by Monday, Keith will have our own data complement fully fleshed out, and we'll have links to the AIMS site through Enterprise.
There's this very interesting mathematical group called the Thessalian Group, and they have been pioneering in this stunning new technology, which is to improve the resolution of digital data by a factor of between 8 and 10.
They've applied that to these orbital photographs taken By Vikings.
We can see that the platforms of these two pyramids and their orientation are.
And that's where the numbers come in.
Because they're oriented due north-south.
If you draw a line between the two peaks, it's due north-south.
Their platforms are tilted by 30 degrees off that north-south line.
You can see the platforms in the orbital view.
That line of sight, if you follow a great circle route through that line, it goes to the north knob, which is the next pyramid that's partially buried north of the lander by one and a half miles.
And then if you follow that great circle route around the planet over the horizon to the northeast, guess where you wind up?
I mean, we're literally doing preliminary data analysis and discussion as we are finding some of this stuff.
Obviously, we will corroborate this with better numbers and more accurate measurements.
But what we're looking at now is the fact that we're not just looking at random hills, and Ron will address this in great detail, but we're looking at what appears to be what's sticking up out of this floodplain, which was built before the floods, which raises the question, how old are the floods art?
NASA claims this floodplain is half a billion years old.
Well, these are all just numbers that are thrown up in the air because we don't have any ground truth.
NASA's way of dating planetary surfaces is by doing something called comparative crater counts.
And you basically look at the number of holes in the ground, and you have an estimate for how many things hit per square mile per year, and then you extrapolate a time based on those set of curves.
Well, that's all estimated based on the lunar missions and an assumption, several major assumptions, that the solar system had one big splashy impact of debris when it was forming, and it's been tailing off ever since.
If Tom Van Flandern is right, if Mars was once a satellite of the world that used to be in the asteroid belt, which blew up, all the shrapnel would have peppered Mars.
It would have splashed away its atmosphere.
It would have caused these floods because of the thermal and the temperature and the incredible climatic catastrophe that Mars would have undergone.
It would have left all the holes that NASA guys are counting.
And we could compress millions or billions of years of history into a few million years in terms of how they're approaching their own data.
All right, we have three people here, yourself, Richard, Marv Zarnik, and Ken Johnston.
And while we have them, gentlemen, do either one of you have any explanation for how a planet, which once was a water world, could now be barren and dry?
Do we have any conventional explanation that tells us where the water went?
unidentified
Well, for me, Art, that's really outside of my area of expertise, so I'm not even going to address it.
But there are some people that have come up with some very good theories on that.
Well, that's one of the major reasons for both Pathfinder, we are told, as well as the Global Surveyor Program, which is getting to Mars and goes within September.
That is supposed to find, as a follow-on to the missing Mars observer, where the global inventory of water on Mars went.
Unless you evoke a catastrophic model, meaning something extraordinary happened and blew the atmosphere and the water into space, you're never going to solve it.
And as part of that incredible cataclysm, waters gushed down from the poles, from the incredible rain, from the rapidly falling temperatures that the planet would have undergone at that moment of cataclysm.
And it buried under debris what was sitting at 19.5, 22.5 west of Sidonia.
And somebody in NASA, this is my point, somebody in NASA suspected this or knew this and intended for this spacecraft to land and explore this.
And they dropped this little guy within half a mile of one of the only things sticking up for hundreds of miles around this lander.
On the website, you've got the NASA Ames super resolution close-up of the right twin peak.
Now, clearly, it would seem that something of a pyramid-type shape, not consistent with the rest of the terrain of rock around it, whatever's up there, looks like the top of a possible pyramid sticking up.
I can see that myself.
Ken, is that what you're seeing?
unidentified
The one on the left actually looks like it has a structure that looks like it is the top of a pyramid area.
Ron and I have been developing a tentative geological model to explain what we're seeing and to make predictions.
But the core of this art, and this is what the audience has to desperately understand tonight, it is within our power, within their power to find out.
If these gentlemen, if Marvin and Ken are correct and the technology is being grossly underestimated, this little rover, at the behest of the American people, can literally solve this problem in the next few days.
We don't have to wait.
We don't have to wonder.
We don't have to argue.
We don't have to speculate.
We can know, we can test this hypothesis on real live television, provided the American people give a damn and let Dan Golden and everyone else know what they want to know about this.
Well, we've discussed the anomalies in the current NASA mission and the fact that there's only one or two explanations.
Either we have gone brain dead at NASA at all levels, or there's something weird and funny going on in terms of policy and a dual agenda where we're being given weird data and strange explanations, which is covering something going on in the background that we are not privy to.
Is there anything else either one of you want to say that adds to any of this, any other suspicions you have or observations you want to make?
unidentified
Well, I find it interesting that all the question and answers on NASA's website leads you to believe that the capability of both the lander and the rover are minimal.
And if you see something interesting on the horizon, it can't go look at it.
Well, you know, I read a news article that suggested the transceiver that's being used on this little rover, and I guess on the other end, and I know this is a laughable item, is a converted RadioShock handheld transceiver.
Well, William Brown, Defense Secretary under the first part of the Carter administration, not Carter, Clinton, actually changed Pentagon procurement policy, and the Pentagon is now buying off-the-shelf electronics, including from Tandy and RadioShack, because it's up to basically military specs.
There has been a stunning technological learning curve in this country, forced by competition, foreign and domestic, so that when you buy RadioShack stuff now, there's no reason why you can't send it to space.
That's why we were discussing private options to go to the moon.
Well, actually, I really did read that story, but even if that is the case, the suggestion here is that the rover has a far greater capability in movement than they are telling us it has.
You don't have to get to the peak to get into interesting debris, because if this right-hand peak was torn apart and the covers smashed and the inner guts of the rooms and the debris and God knows what would be in there flowed down with the water, it basically has clustered as a debris apron that you can see in the Viking shots around the base.
And that debris apron extends almost to the lander site itself, if you look carefully at the photos.
I've had phone calls coming in from the people out there, both us and our sister FM station, of four strange lights being seen in cloud cover out here.
We've got lightly overcast skies.
They would look like searchlights, but there's nothing coming up from the ground.
They're coming down from above.
They move in a circular pattern.
They move to the center and join, and they spread apart and start moving in a circular pattern again.
I started getting calls about 10 after the hour, and I came in at about 25 after the hour to run near bottom of the hour, and haven't been able to back out to see them, but they were still out there at 25 after.
Well, if you've got an altitude for the clouds, John, I haven't got a bearing and an elevation for the lights, then simple trigonometry should give you what it's over.
unidentified
If I haven't got an altitude on them, actually, just a good guess.
I'll take it over the weather service there and see what they've got.
And I really want to thank John for coming forward with that report.
All right, now, we have a geologist coming on in the middle of this breaking news.
It is Ron Nix, former Parsons Engineering Geologist, EPA Consultant, and Nuclear Regulatory Agency veteran, tasked with locating safe sighting, geological safe sighting, of accumulating nuclear wastes.
I wonder if he wants to put it out here near me.
We'll ask him about that.
Anyway, for tonight, he's going to provide an independent assessment of geological context of Pathfinder July 20th imagery relating to the high-resolution views.
And those can be seen by going to my website, www.artbell.com, and then just going down to the guest section, click on Richard Hoagland's name.
It'll take you over.
Go to the bottom of the page.
You'll see the high-resolution photographs we are about to talk about.
What I like to do is to take my portable phone and go downstairs and play you about a minute 30 piece of tape from Dr. Peter Smith from the press conference, the official Pathfinder press conference on the 22nd, which was three days ago on Tuesday, when they said they got communication back with Pathfinder and it downloaded its latest data.
And he described the super resolution views of the North Twin Peak.
And it's important that we kept that on the record because there will be people claiming that I'm making this up, that we have basically done something with these pictures or whatever.
You need to know that this was officially released by NASA, and then in an unprecedented move, Art, these photographs have disappeared from all archives.
No one can find them.
They don't exist officially, yet they do exist, which raises, in my mind, some pretty interesting political questions.
Well, there is one way we can prove they existed, and that is there will be many people out there who will have downloaded those photographs and will be able to back us up on this.
In other words, we are not dealing here with a hoaxed photograph.
We are dealing with one that was really on their site.
And toward that end, I would guess that's the way we're going to have to do it is ask people to help us out.
And if you have a photograph identical to the one on the site right now that we are going to be discussing, please help Us out and get it to us.
This is the close-up of the hill, the northern hills of the Twin Peaks, and you can see in this view an enhanced super resolution taken with something like 25 frames that have been shifted slightly one to the next so that we can actually get sub-pixel resolution.
Now, this has been done by a very competent team from the Ames Research Center, headed by Dr. Carol Stoker, who is one of our participating scientists.
And several members of her team has been very industrious in applying algorithms to help us get a little better resolution where we really want it.
And in this picture, you can see that the hill has almost a prow, like a ship.
There's a bright rock here.
I assume it's a rock.
It looks like it'd be a rock to be in that position.
And one back here at the back end of the hill.
I say the back end because the water would have flown past us from left to right.
And here's some of the layering that we could just barely make out in the previous pictures.
And unfortunately, the rest of the layers are just below the frame.
We may have to go back and take another picture of them and use this wonderful technique to explore the details.
But what Ron is going to now talk about from his geological background is what I did was kind of like a double blind.
I called him up and I didn't even tell him what I wanted him to look at.
I simply said, look at these pictures and tell me what you see.
And Ron, what did you say to me?
unidentified
Well, the very first thing I said, and what Richard's saying is exactly correct, he did say, you know, you might pay special attention to the twin, the photo called Twin Peaks.
Upon looking at that, it was only a few moments of looking at that photo.
I called Richard back up and I said, well, I said, first of all, it's a somewhat anomalous name.
Anomalies is what I'm into.
Anomalies and discontinuities is what geologists look for.
Yes, by the way, while we're at it, what is the likelihood of that?
If this was all a floodplain at one time...
unidentified
All right.
That's an excellent question, and it's a question that remains as such.
If you take a look at it, I called Richard and I said, Richard, on the right peak or the flat-topped peak, I said, if you look right at the middle of that, face on, there is a pattern in there that is very clear.
It's almost oval, and it looks like three terraces with a ramp up the middle.
It's an oval shape kind of that covers the side of the hill.
I thought, well, not interesting.
It's a difference in coloration is all I can see on the photo.
If you're in a catastrophic floodplain or a floodplain as huge as this one appears to be, first of all, it's kind of anomalous that you'd have two little bumps sticking up.
That's not totally impossible, from the natural standpoint.
But I'm not sure exactly how that would occur.
We'll have to make some assumptions.
Assumptions are always up for debate, and I recognize that.
But I would assume that they very likely are the same material, if you will.
If they're natural materials, they're probably the same material.
If that is the case, then why is it that one is so pointed and one is so flat if they've experienced the same catastrophe and they are so close together?
You might say as a geologist, well, maybe that one's older.
Maybe that one is around longer than the other one and therefore would have more subdued edges.
But on closer inspection, if that's the case, then why is it that the one that would be older would retain more detail of what appears to be horizontal and vertical structure on the face that you see?
And again, it's just a coloration pattern.
My first words to Richard were, Richard, this feature on the right, this peak on the right, looks like a stepped pyramid to me.
And I said the one on the left, if you really look at it carefully, there's some fascinating things to see because, again, I look for anomalies and discontinuities.
Come down the slope of the left side of the left peak, and you'll see a break-in slope.
Now, that break in slope is very typical of the sorts of things you have in arid terrains with alluvial fans.
I'm very familiar with those, spent almost a decade in the Las Vegas Valley around Freshman Sunrise, the Bird Spring Range, and all the rest of them, mapping details in alluvial fans.
If you look at the map view, you will notice some dark coloration kind of around, well, let's look at the Twin Peaks area, around to the left and around underneath the Twin Peaks and then kind of off and to the upper right, a sort of a slightly darker streak in that photo.
Then if you consider, well, now that probably is debris, if you will, splashed up onto there from this catastrophic flood.
You can then go back and say, oh, well, I can see now in the, go back up to the color photo and look at the left edge, you can see how, yes, it looks like this stuff is plastered up against what would be like the back side of a pyramid more like a Giza pyramid.
And actually, what I'm about to say only goes to verify what is already known, I believe, that it has undergone some catastrophic flooding.
Gold miners have known for years when you want to look for nuggets, you look under the downstream side or near the downstream side of a boulder because there's an erosive force there that tends to pluck the material out of there.
The upstream side tends to catch the sedimentation.
The downstream side erodes out and materials are plucked out and that's where the heavy gold stays.
If this water, whatever, if this flood came from the left to the right as you're looking at that color photo, it would have tended to plaster on the left side of the left peak and it would have continued on to the right peak.
And the right side of the right peak, though, is very steep, and it doesn't appear to be plastered up next.
Ron, you really need to get into this plucking business because this is the key to unraveling a whole bunch of stuff.
unidentified
It's just like any science, if you understand the glossary, you know the science.
But it's just a term for what occurs.
It happens with glaciers when they move.
It happens in streams where you get a downstream side of something tends to be plucked out.
There's actually a lower pressure is what's caused in there.
You get the compressional force, the stuff, the fluid hitting it, and around behind on the downstream side, you have a lower pressure and it tends to just pluck and pull the pieces apart.
Extraordinary rending, ripping, vacuum suction forces on the downstream side.
unidentified
That's right.
Now, at first much, you might say, well, okay, then how come the right side of the left hill isn't plucked?
Well, I don't know the exact answer to that, but here's what I suspect.
I suspect that those two features are close enough together that when this massive flood of debris and everything else hit this thing, you had some splashback when it hit the second one, all right?
And it just splashed back onto the left pyramid from the right pyramid.
And you will notice that that break and slope, if you look, it almost goes up just a little bit before it flattens out, kind of like it was a little platforming.
Very much like what you'd have if it came down, smashed into the left side of the left peak, went and smashed into the left side of the right peak, splashed back over and deposited a bunch of debris, and it just kept on going.
You had a swirling mass, if you will, in the saddle area there that just left all that stuff deposited when it finally passed by and plucked the downstream side of the right one.
And before I go to a commercial break, let me make note that I've got a number of reports already, some suggesting that these are some sort of searchlights or a grand opening of a place called Nightlife at 59th Avenue and Indian School in Phoenix.
So we want to be clear.
However, once again, here is John, who is my board operator at KFYI in Phoenix.
Apparently, the majority of your calls are suggesting these are searchlights of the site.
unidentified
I'm getting quite a few calls, though, eight to ten, somewhere that one, saying there's searchlights.
Some of the people are saying the searchlights are looking in the wrong part of the valley.
But I do have some people out there on the west side that claim there is that club opening.
But then I also have a couple, Hornet individuals I happen to know personally, who sees what I saw and says they're definitely not and is supposedly videotaping it.
All right, I've got one here that says, I thought they were searchlights until we just heard John, and we did not notice any beams going up from the ground either.
They did appear to be above the clouds, not below.
Normally, when they're searchlights, you can see the beam from the ground, but there is no beam.
Yes.
That's what I'm getting, and I take it that's some of what you're getting.
unidentified
Yes, it is, and the air here in Phoenix is far from being clean, so you think we'd see the beam.
So we are referring here to the high resolution photograph that we have yet to discuss that was at one point on the main site and is no longer there, but is interestingly on this mirror site.
Now you're looking, you're supposed to go into that website and look for the archived images for Sol 18 to 19, which is the Martian Day, are called Sol's.
I have just been handed another facts.
Dear Richard, picture number 81977 underline full.jpg is available still at NASA Mirror Site run by ATNT.
Why, Richard, would such a high-resolution, interesting photograph be taken off the main site and placed, but still be on mirror sites, thank God for the web.
Why would they take it off the main site, Richard?
There's the middle group, which is by far the larger group, which is basically honest but doesn't know what's going on.
Then there's a tiny group on the right-hand side, which we'll call the suppressors, who are trying to keep us from figuring out what's going on.
These two groups, the Enlighteners and the Suppressors, are at war with each other, and the honest guys are caught in the middle, and some of them, I think, are just waking up that there's something weird going on with this mission, if not a lot of stuff at NASA.
Ron, if we have confirmed the validity of these high-resolution photographs, then I think we can now begin talking about them as though they are the real thing and not somebody's photos.
It seems to me we've got enough evidence.
So, Ron, what do you see in these high-res photos?
unidentified
Well, in a nutshell, what we just finished in the last segment was the fact that, yes, there is clearly evidence of the catastrophe flooding that took place.
And in those two, well, in the high-resolution photos, I concentrated on the large-color photo.
To me, the most interesting thing about the high-resolution photo was it didn't take a picture of the area that I'd like to look at.
What they did was they took the very top of the right-hand peak.
And about a third of it is rock, and about two-thirds of it is atmosphere.
Now, why they would apply a technique like they've got that is obviously highly sophisticated and worthwhile to mostly the atmosphere and not to the rock when they could have lowered that frame just a little bit and picked up those features where you can see the color changes in the linearity, vertical and horizontal on that peak.
And bragging that he would be able to geologically now figure out the high water mark, the flows, the deposition of rocks, and all that.
Now, you know, and I know, Ron, that in Geology 101, geology is based on stratigraphy.
And stratigraphy gives you a time sequence.
The oldest stuff is on the bottom, and the youngest stuff is usually on top.
So why would you image the top of the hill and not the bottom of the hill to get the dating from the bottom up?
It makes no sense at all.
unidentified
From a stratigraphic standpoint, that's correct.
Out of difference to NASA, I can see a reason for looking at the edge.
After all, remember what I started out with?
We look for discontinuities and anomalies, and that's certainly a discontinuity between atmosphere and rock.
And the reason you look at such a huge discontinuity is because along those edges is where you begin to understand the nature of the materials on both sides of that edge, if you will.
They could have very well gotten the edge as well as those features that can be seen on the face of that hill by simply moving that same size frame down a little bit.
But for whatever reason, they chose not to.
And it was interesting in the clip that you played, Richard.
He even joked about that.
Yes.
I mean, he made an offhand comment about, oh, well, you know, I guess maybe next time we'll, isn't it?
Which he said, if it is a rock, then like, well, what else can it be?
My strong suspicion, I'm going to lay it right out here, is that Peter Smith knows exactly what's going on, and he's playing a head game.
And what he's doing is dangling so that we rise to the bait, we make a big fuss about this, we do our analysis, we bring people like Ron on who say this lineation is not natural, it's not faulting, it's not cross-bedding, it's none of the standard geology,
and then we impel millions of people to demand of this space agency that they send Sojourner over there to get better ground truth, and therefore they can say when they find what we're claiming is there, oh, we didn't know it was there.
The American people demanded we do it, and we did it, and look what happened.
They are what Paulo Soleri called arcologies, which has been our model for Sidonia.
You have basically a mile cube domed in in a pyramid shape with a whole bunch of rooms and shopping centers and malls and plazas and streets and all kinds of stuff inside.
A huge super, super.
This designed to keep the light in and the air in and the vacuum or the lower atmosphere outside out.
When the flood came past these two pyramids, if that's what they are, the exposed one, the one on the far downstream position, suffered the maximum vacuum-sucking wrenching forces, tons per square foot, which apparently ripped off this fragile covering, relatively fragile, and deposited it all over this valley as part of the debris flow.
And the upstream side, getting the brunt of the water, it was compressed onto the covering, so it stayed there, and you can actually see around the edges the dark rim.
You can measure the thickness, and if you zoom in, Art, on the close-ups, you can see that that dark rim is serrated.
It goes up and down almost like Venetian blinds in correspondence to the dark squares underneath it.
It's an astonishing correlation of geometry and careful, highly regular geometry.
All right, Ron, this is quite a leap to make, to suggest that we are seeing the artifacts of a city or pyramids or capstones.
unidentified
All right, yeah, I don't claim to see a city, but what I do see, and to me it's the whole point, I see something that is difficult for me to explain with only natural phenomena.
And that doesn't mean that it can't be explained.
I'm saying I can't explain it.
This was something that I also explained at the press conference in Washington.
If this is natural, it is important that we understand it because I don't see terrestrial equivalents of that natural phenomenon.
And I need to know that.
You know, I'm a geologist.
I should understand that.
Now, the reason might be is that they just haven't been found, or they've been found and misinterpreted.
That could be happened, or that could be the case, or it simply doesn't exist in a terrestrial environment.
The other thing is, if it's artificial, well, that's fine, too.
We need to know that.
But we need to take advantage of what we've got up there right now.
That little Snowjourner and the Pathfinder landed very near, if you will look again on the map, the edge of that darker area that looks to be like a debris field.
Remember how the Titanic, when it went down, split into two?
And there's this vast debris field between the two sections, Art.
We're talking the equivalent on Mars of a debris field of the stuff from inside the right-hand peak, i.e.
maybe pyramid, strewn out by the water, wrenched and mangled and torn, and everything from computers to launch furniture to paintings to God knows what could be in there.
And this little rover could wander up to the debris within a few hundred feet of this lander.
It could then put its little X-ray gadget on this debris and give us the first reading of extraterrestrial manufactured material.
unidentified
Well, in fact, if you asked Art, what can we see?
I wish I had the picture in front of me, but I don't, but I believe you'll see it.
Look at the color panorama again.
And Richard, you might be able to guide him more directly to it.
Which means that one scenario is that you've got a structure there that was inundated by this catastrophic flood, was destroyed and ripped apart, and the debris was spread around it and deposited right there in that field.
Scooby-Doo and Blubba-Dubba and Lambshop and Ghost and whatever.
Okay.
That, I think, is part of this tongue-in-cheek business that we're being dealt with by this team.
The real mission is the mission we're not getting to see.
But we got a tip of the iceberg when Peter Smith deliberately put this bait out there, the top of the pyramid, withdrew it, but has left enough clues on the mirror site so we, the American people, if we demand to get the ground truth that this mission can give us, but we politically have to really want to know Art, we can now make a stunning breakthrough in this 15-year agonizing saga, Is There or Ever Was There Life on Mars?
I'm not a geologist and I'm not Richard Hoagland, but the one very interesting photograph, the high-resolution photograph that we now confirm really was theirs, was removed intentionally for some reason from their site.
Thank God for mirror sites, that caught it.
But why would they remove such an interesting, a particularly high-resolution photograph?
That is a very reasonable question, and it demands a reasonable answer.
This group at Ames has worked very hard to prove this technology.
It was asked early, early on in the mission, right after landing, one of the reporters who knew about the mission said, when are you going to do the super resolution stuff?
For NASA not to tout it, to brag about it, to send it all over, but to withdraw it, to hide it, is very, very telling.
I cannot tell you whether it is a grand opening of a bar or something else.
What I can tell you is, at 756, the weather report from Phoenix Sky Harbor, that's 756 Universal, there was a layer of broken clouds at 16,000 feet above Phoenix, which is about 5 eighths to 7 eighths coverage of the sky.
There was a reported 10-mile visibility.
Thank you, Doug, and we will continue to track.
Of course, Phoenix, as you might imagine on this night, is kind of on a hair trigger, it being the 26th and the final day of predicted possible occurrence.
And again, if nothing untoward occurs, Richard will clarify again that he did not indicate that something would happen in Phoenix, only that something would happen that is connected with Phoenix, Giza, and of course what we are discussing on Mars.
And we'll get back to that in a moment.
All right, now, what I want to do is summarize very quickly what we have covered so far.
Number one, we have covered why we landed, where we have now landed, which Richard acknowledges on Mars at a very, very interesting location.
Richard contends it is a dual mission.
One providing the pictures we are seeing, and the other investigating an area of intense interest, which Richard contends contains artificial artifacts, I suppose, potentially artificial.
Okay, Richard, as you would say, I wasn't quite finished.
We go back to even an earlier conversation with the gentleman we had on, and there was a 10-minute missed period of time, missed communication, that these two gentlemen, both former NASA people, contend is absolutely impossible to have missed.
And what Zemekis then said in response was: you cannot believe the images you are seeing these days, which in a metonymic way could be Mr. Clinton's comment on larger issues.
My point is that if we're looking at a political shell game here, if the mission we think we're seeing is in fact a facade, Scooby-Doo and flubba-dubba and all that notwithstanding, and the real mission is to look and investigate with this technology a potential second city site at Pilat and Long on Mars that apparently is connected geometrically to Sidonia and has got incredible things within reach of this technology that can be tested,
then that's a pretty important thing for the American people to know to pursue.
Now, see, what's really important here, if we don't leave this evening with people understanding that this is not something that has to remain in the Aerie Ferry, as Ron said so eloquently a few moments ago, we are here, boys and girls, ladies and gentlemen.
We are within striking distance of getting finally, after 15 agonizing years, definitive answers, starting with looking at the anomalies right around the lander.
Over on the left in that color twin peaks frame, that angular thing that has a thickness.
That looks like a piece of metal about a, at the distance from a lander, that would be about an inch thick piece of metal bent by wrenching forces and dropped by the rapidly moving water where we could take this little guy or gal, you know, sojourner, run it up to it, turn it around, put the x-ray gadget on it, and if it came back iron or steel or titanium or whatever, bingo.
I don't know what they are, but there's more pieces of evidence that tend to lead you to say, well, gosh, you know, there are some interesting edges on these things that you can see.
And the whole, where we, I think, do have agreement with the conventional wisdom and everything else about a catastrophic flood, these features appear to have withstood that flood, and whatever remnants are left is what we're looking at, but they still retain some interesting characteristics and structure, which is just not real easy to explain.
Floods like that, why wouldn't it smooth everything over and fill it in, make it all nice and rounded?
Well, that's not the way it is.
If you look at those, that's not the way those two features are.
Ron, for the audience, because what you're saying is so important, would you be willing to go over, please, Ron, some of your background?
I know you were with Parsons Engineering.
unidentified
I'm a registered geologist in the state of California and registered geologist and engineering geologist in Oregon.
I'm a member in good standing of the American Institute of Professional Geologists.
I've spent 30 years doing geologic and photo interpretation work, geologic mapping, as well as the trench logging and borehole logging, all the things geologists do all over the continental United States.
About 15 years in the southwest in arid environments.
And for about 10 years, I worked with the high-level nuclear waste problem, trying to find a place to deeply bury that in geologic disposal.
And yes, I hear you growling.
There's a place called NTS not too far from Farum.
And I was, at that time, I was working for Battelle Memorial Institute in Columbus, Ohio, who had the prime contract from the Department of Energy to at first manage all three sites, the salt dome sites, the sites in Texas and Utah, as well as up at the Basalt Waste Isolation Pilot Plant in Washington.
So later on, Battelle took over only the salt sites, and the others went elsewhere.
Just prior to that happening, I was the national manager for exploration of crystal rocks, granitic types of rocks, hard rocks, for such a disposal site.
That became a separate program also.
And of course, we all know what happened.
They all threw it up in the air and decided, well, we'll go to the Nevada test site.
And again, all of this is visible in the raw data.
That's right.
Not the enhanced data where we're beginning to look at pixelization and so forth, but in the raw data.
unidentified
That's right, because I find it very difficult to convince people by looking at very high-resolution close-ups where you can't see a picture of anything.
You've got to be able to relate it to something to begin to convince people and then show them, okay, we're going to look at this area a little closer up.
Are you still with me?
And get to that point.
And then they can begin to relate clearly from one to the other.
But you've got to start, to me, with raw data, the basic, here's a picture.
What do you see?
And that's kind of what I've tried to explain to the listeners tonight.
When you look at the quality of this super resolution view, and then you go to the AIMS website where the background and the other examples, which by the way, you'll find this gentleman very interesting, the prime example of what the capability of the super resolution technology is capable of producing is a dollar bill.
It's the Masonic emblem in the middle of E. pluribus unum.
And they've split it in half, and they show you the left half without the technology and the right half after they stitch together X number of pictures.
And there's a stunning 8 to 1 improvement in resolution.
So the very hallmark of the group doing this is, if I may say, very, very Masonic.
You've got to look at the coloration changes, trace edges down, and then look at changes in slope, follow the angles, and all of a sudden it becomes like, well, now, how do you get natural stuff like that?
And we presented them side by side so you can compare.
We've clearly labeled them.
81977 is a raw NASA frame from their computers.
And the stunning geometry in that frame correlates with the broader color view that Ron has been discussing.
unidentified
And all I'm saying is I find it easier to discuss with folks what they might see in the broader color view than they would in the raw data as demonstrated in the high-res photo.
When a little kid asked something to the effect of, what was the biggest surprise about the Martian landscape?
Peter's immediate response was that the double-peak mountain in the panorama was just like the double-peaked mountain comprising the M in the imp insignia on the shirt he wears every single day at the press conference.
I have got several messages indicating that the photograph, the high-resolution photograph that you're talking about, the Twin Peaks, are now back on the Pathfinder website on Seoul 1819.
You might want to check and find out.
That's what they're saying on the Pathfinder website.
Okay, let me make a couple of points before we do that, all right?
One is, I want other geologists than Ron, independent, not paid by NASA.
There's a lot of them that listen to you because I get faxes all the time.
I want them to go to the mirror sites, the NASA site that's back there, our site, look at these images, these high-res, super-resolution images of the top of this thing, and tell me what you think.
Or you can leave us an email message at enterprise, www.enterprismission.com.
I want independent analysis.
Number two, if people really give a damn, if anybody out there tonight wants to know, I mean, really know and not just talk and talk and talk and talk and talk, they should fax Dan Golden at 202-358-2810.
People should send copies of their golden facts to Koppel and to Holloman.
If the press doesn't hear that people care, nothing will happen.
The only leverage that we have on this administration is the political pressure of letting media know so the media can ask embarrassing questions if they don't do what we want.
I think it would be worthy to get somebody with some technical expertise with regard to the amount of power being run, the antenna heights, the line-of-sight capability, so that we could make a judgment about whether this thing really could get over there without losing signal.
As you point out, we've had two experts say yes, they believe it could.
I would like to have some more technical details and to know that for sure.
All right.
First time caller line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
Yes, Richard, all this is leading up to something, you know, a little beyond what the detail that you're getting in tonight, you know, like the sacred ceremony, the connection of all these points in this critical time.
What is the purpose behind it?
Is this going to be like opening up a new reality, a new dimensional shift?
And again, this is not speculation, but if there are these three groups in NASA, a tiny group of the enlighteners, the Masonic guys that have been guiding this system for 30 years that we can now figure out with the computer, there's a middle group which is basically the honest but somewhat ignorant scientists and engineers who simply go to work and think they're doing science when in fact they're also doing something else.
And then there's a tiny group trying to keep us from knowing anything about who we are and what we're all doing in this place.
I think that it's now, you know, push-come to shove time.
And the enlighteners are working on some kind of a timetable.
And it looks to me like this putting this picture out and then taking it back and putting it out again is part of a mechanism of raising public awareness, getting discussions like this going, and seeing if anybody out here gives a damn.
Those are good technical questions, and frankly, I haven't had time to sit down and actually do the numbers.
I could ballpark them off the top of my head.
This whole new technology, the super resolution Besselian statistical technology group at Ames, if you take a number of low-res frames and put them together in the computer, you can synthesize a high-res picture.
And the increase, the improvement is about 10 to 1 with the best data.
That means that Global Surveyor, if it took enough pictures of the face, of course they're telling us they can't, of Sidonia, we could composite them in the computer using this technology, and instead of a meter, we could get down to maybe a tenth of a meter, which is what?
A few inches, right?
That should tell us something.
We could do the same thing over these pyramids, photograph the Pathfinder landing site, if Mailin will permit, and look at very high resolution down on these things to correlate what the surface lander is seeing with what the orbital view is at a much higher res, even without the super resolution technology.
So there's a lot that can be done, but it comes back to the politics.
Unless the American people make a clear statement, and I mean the millions of people who are following these cutting-edge things that you talk about every night, think about Philip Corso.
Think of what he was saying.
The CIA basically has taken over NASA and they're running the space program.
He was trying to tell you lots of clues the other night between the lines.
But he's looking for a few good men and women to step up to the plate and do their constitutional duty, which is to demand some accountability.
This should not be going on, and the only reason it is, is because our representatives in the press are too damn dumb to know what questions to ask, and everybody else is too timid.
I mean, Peter Smith is leaking instead of sitting there saying, look what we found, and look how we're going to test it.
I really do find it a little difficult to believe that using the frequency they're using with FM, that they could not safely begin to venture that far out.
In other words, what we can see, and we're not far from ground level, is line of sight.
And the antenna's up at that same altitude.
There's no reason in the world why they can't move that little rover way out.
I agree.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Hogan.
unidentified
Good morning, gentlemen.
My name is Tadette, and I'm from Lathrop, California.
Yes.
Quick comment, and then a question that I hope is not redundant.
My comment is, Mr. Hogan, I am blind, and you are really good at, even though I can't see the picture, you're really good at making it easy to visualize, and I really appreciate that.
Richard, is there any way of calculating from what's sticking out of the ground the relationship and distance of the bases of the pyramids and thereby being able to calculate what other structures might be buried?
If I'm right, they're the same size as what we're seeing at Sidonia, except the Sidonia pyramids are not buried.
And they're also made of pretty stern stuff.
If you think of the volume of water and you do the hydrological calculations based on earth examples like the scab lands of eastern Washington come to mind, the plucking force, this vacuum flow behind the water flow in the downstream position is tons per square feet.
And it's ripped off that downstream side on the exposed flank of the northern pyramid, which protected because of the inhibition of the vortex formation, the same kind of force being applied to the side we see of the left-hand pyramid, which still retains its covering.
And all of this is calculable.
All of this is within current physics.
And when you strip away in your imagination the treatise level, it looks as if the size of these things is very comparable, about a mile square to the things we're seeing at Sidonia.
And I got up there and I looked at the pictures, and what I'm looking at, looks like the top of a hill with a strata, some kind of white layer that's exposed at two sides by whatever erosion they've got up there.
Now, I'm someone who would love to find, you know, that there was a civilization up there and everything like that.
But I got to admit, Richard, what I'm hearing is a classical flim flam.
Well, the point is that what I'm recommending is we test.
Colin Beck, the project scientist, was asked by our CNN friends the other afternoon on Tuesday whether they had gotten everything in the Novela mission.
And he said they had.
All right?
That means now that this rover and this lander are free to do exciting, cutting-edge frontier things.
Like go to this pyramid and see if it's really rooms and structure and lawn furniture and ancient computers and all that junk and test the idea.
I guarantee you, when re when when people of Ron's caliber look at these, they will have the same problems with a natural model that he has, that I have, because they are bizarre pictures.
And the more you know about the way mechanisms for flow and deposition and layering and cross-bedding and all that are supposed to work, the more questions that reasonable scientists will have who were not bought and found.
Okay, Richard, if we get more geologists backing up Mr. Nix, then I would be happy to begin laying the pressure on the media to ask the right questions.
No problem with that at all.
We're at the bottom of the air.
We're going to take a break, and we'll be right back.
unidentified
You're dirty, sweet, and sweet, and I love you.
You're dirty, sweet, and I'm mad.
You're just living with me.
You've got the teeth that I've had on you.
You're dirty, sweet, and you're my girl.
It's not happy away.
Send your camel to bed.
Shadows faint in our faces.
Facing the romance in our head.
Heavens holding our hands.
Sorry just for us.
Let's all through a sand.
Christmas, kick those little guys, let's call them, can't miss our friends.
Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
That's 702-727-1295.
First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
You heard Ron Nix, who's a geologist of 30-plus years experience in desert terrain out here in the southwest, saying that he has major problems in explaining this in terms of natural models.
I work for the Enterprise Mission, which is a public institution supported by people who are interested in these questions that provide money through educational materials, through books, through tapes, you know, briefings we've done for NASA and other institutions.
unidentified
All right, then.
Why doesn't NASA hold you liable for some of the comments that you make towards them, which sound very negative?
Well, as Ron was saying, if you have a vast volume of water rushing at high speed down this flat plane, and it's moving a lot of boulders with it, the grinding and the bumping and the jostling and the crashing is going to round off the edges and you get rounded rocks.
If you have sharp angular things, it means that they're basically pretty close to their source.
Now, NASA is explaining the angular stuff as impact debris.
You get craters, you get ejecta, and the stuff falls back and it shards.
A flat rock is an interesting anomaly because it fits more with Ron's idea that it's part of a sharp event that was produced locally.
In other words, debris that comes from something not far away that basically settled to the bottom of the stream, and when the water went down, it was left.
And there's a lot of these weird, highly angular, some of them look like bent metal plates, like that one on the left of the color panorama I've got up there.
We should go and look at these.
I mean, if you put that X-ray gadget up against that bent one.
That alpha spectrometer would crystal clear, pun intended, give us definitive anomalous data at a materials level, not just what it looks like, but what it's made of.
This little rover is tailor-made to explore a debris field from a shattered pyramid.
And then the question is, why did we land almost at the base?
If you look at this large plane on the big, big maps, which we have up on our Pathfinder site, these two little bumps are basically the only bumps for 100 square miles around.
And we landed right next to them.
And there's this double peak on Peter Smith's shirt.
And in a whole series of mathematical papers from the 20s on through the 70s and 80s, in the mathematical literature, which is a subset of, you know, topologists, a subset of mathematicians, there is a whole field called hyperdimensional topology, which models higher dimensional sets.
And when you rotate these models in the mathematics, in your mind's eye, in the conceptual frame, they produce vorticular motion at 19.5 degrees in a three-dimensional sphere.
And isn't it curious that we find a lot of stuff occurring at exactly that latitude all over the solar system and beyond?
Basically, what I said, and I hope this is right, as per Richard Hogan's request, I'm contacting you as a member of the general viewing public with the wish that you would address the issues that Mr. Hogan raises.
You can't get one of these people, Donna Shirley, or any of the project people, on an interview without three sentences in, they talk about looking for life on Mars, right?
Here we got an exquisite example of how we can test an idea.
And I think that Mr. Nix this morning gave us enough real hard data based on images that are not enhanced, but basic data that demands that these questions be asked.
And I think you've generally got the right approach.
I mean, they've got these news conferences, Richard, and it seems like you've laid out enough raw data this morning that these questions ought to be asked at the news conferences.
As soon as John gets back from vacation, he will be back next weekend.
You see, you're not just sending to Coppel and to Holloman.
You're sending to the network.
When the facts pile up three feet deep on the floor from thousands upon thousands upon thousands of concerned American citizens who are paying for this mission, that will be what counts.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
unidentified
Hi.
Hi, I go by E.K. in your chat room, and there's a lot of people talking about it now.
But one thing that interests me, the show contact, a lot of the regular reporters like John Holloman were featured in it as they were doing real reports, and I wondered what was going through his mind.
I think he must have thought of Richard at that point.
You know, that's the first question I'm going to ask him when I get to him, when he gets back from vacation next week.
unidentified
And also, one other thing, I still have a gut feeling that no matter how far out your stuff may sound, if a one-inch little bug crawled out on a rock, they would not show it to us.
Okay, Goldin's fax and copy to Coppel and Holloman and any other news people that you know or can find.
The internet now lets you search out all of the reporters and all of the networks.
I'm just giving out my friends here because they're rather, well, we can bring some leverage to bear behind the scenes.
Dan Goldin's fax number, which is your fax number in NASA headquarters, 202-358-2810.
That's 202-358-2810.
Ted Coppel in Washington at ABC News, 202-222-7976.
222-7976, area code 202.
And John Holloman in Atlanta at CNN, 404-681-3578.
404-681-3578.
Imagine how good you guys are all going to feel if you send all this stuff in and Golden or Clinton or somebody comes out and says, because of the overwhelming demand And the space program is the American people's.
We're going to take a risk.
We're going to actually do something we didn't quite plan on.