All Episodes
Previous Next
July 25, 1997 - Art Bell
03:23:48
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Richard C. Hoagland - Pyramids. Marv Czarnik - Mars. Ron Nicks - Mars Imagery
| Copy link to current segment

Time Text
OK, it's Johnson and Coons, scholars. Minnesota is east of the Rockies and here's the speed of the air.
Good day, everybody.
From the high desert in the great American southwest, I bid you all good evening or a good morning.
As it is, we may be on this Friday night, Saturday morning.
Across all these many time zones, from the Hawaiian Tahitian Island chains in the West, eastward to the Caribbean, and the U.S.
Virgin Islands, south into South America, north to the Bullen, worldwide on the Internet, This is Coast to Coast AM, and what a program awaits you this evening.
In the first hour, it's Richard C. Hoagland, actually, he'll be with us throughout the night, with Tom Danley, the latter a former NASA consultant, acoustic expert, and recent member of the Shore Expedition to Giza.
And the subject here will be the secret, secret tunneling inside The Great Pyramid, as personally witnessed by Mr. Danley, and you may recall Daniel Brinkley talking of the digging going on beyond or above the King's Chamber, not down below.
It would appear that may be the case.
In the second hour, Marv Zarnik and Ken Franklin with Richard Hoagland, a subject there, accumulating operational anomalies around current Mars Pathfinder mission.
Uh, from the perspective of two seasoned NASA veterans.
And, uh, you actually, uh, might want to go up to the internet and take a very good look at what, uh, is offered on Richard's page.
You can do that, uh, through mine, and I have already done so and will do so again.
Hour three brings Richard Hoagland with Ron Nix, former Parsons Engineering Geologist, EPA consultant, and Nuclear Regulatory Agency veteran.
Tasked with locating safe sightings, geologically, of accumulating nuclear waste.
The subject there, an independent assessment of geological context of Pathfinder imagery relating to high-resolution views, super-resolution actually, of one of the two twin peaks within a mile of the ladder.
There is what I consider to be a very, very interesting story there.
And in the final hours, we will take lots of questions from the audience.
Now, a lot of the photographs that are going to be discussed regarding Mars are presently on Richard's page, which, of course, is accessible through mine.
There is something I've got to cover at the top of the program.
The Hubble arises once again in Phoenix.
This time, Uh, we're being told the lights in Phoenix were military flares.
It's all over Arizona.
Military flares, it says, rather than UFOs, might be behind those mysterious bright lights that caused such a stir in Arizona four months ago.
Visiting jets, it is said, from the Maryland Air National Guard were using high-intensity flares Over a bombing range near Phoenix the night of March 13th, when many people, as you know, reported seeing lights.
Military officials said Friday.
The flares would have created quite a light show in southwestern Arizona, where many people reported seeing the lights in a boomerang formation.
The lights, captured on videotape, created a media frenzy when the tape aired nationally last month.
We still don't know why it took so long for the tape to break nationally.
I got a call from an Arizona newspaper earlier today and I asked the reporter who broke this story, or is it re-breaking the flare story, why the airplanes involved, Maryland Air National Guard, Would not have transponders operating, because remember, the two controllers in the tower say they saw nothing.
And I would think that even military airplanes, on a night mission of some sort, would be required to have some sort of transponder operating that just protects civilian aviation, but I am not an expert in this field.
The story broke in the Arizona Republic concerning a statement made by Captain Eileen Bynes.
Bynes, is it, of the Arizona National Guard?
saying of course again that the proof in the pudding is flares.
Uh...
Now, she's saying not flares as mentioned in the article, the Maryland National Guard...
An exercise called Operation Snowbird flew west from Tucson, this is from Bill Hamilton, to the Barry Goldwater Test Range on the night of March 13th and between 9.30 p.m.
and 10 o'clock on that night, jettisoned magnesium flares before returning to Davis on an Air Force base.
These flares are extremely bright and white and illuminate the night and the terrain for miles.
You see, No one, according to Bill Hamilton, I interviewed, could see those flares.
We could not see them either.
The reason?
Tall mountains obstructed our view and more than one mountain range is in the line of sight.
We saw intense but softly glowing yellow orbs in formation in front of the Estrella Mountains, not more than five miles from our position.
Viewing these lights through a Celestron telescope, Brought their image up to about 366 yards.
They appeared to be pulsating orbs that did not glare, nor did they produce a corona, as seen with headlights, and did not illuminate the mountains or terrain below.
At first, it looked like they were up on the side of the mountain, but moved extremely slowly in a line to the west without altering their relative positions.
The jettison flares would have shot out and glowed brightly at least 40 miles further south, and we would not have seen them at all.
The article said they could be visible for a distance of 150 miles, which I do not doubt if you have an unobstructed view of them from that distance.
Though Richard Motzer now claims this is the solution to the mystery as to what we saw and taped, It does not fit any of the facts.
It does not seem that too many people believe this new report answers any questions and certainly does not account for all of the other lights seen coming from the northern parts of the state.
It seems like we're stuck with just one more attempt To solve this mystery without actually interviewing the witnesses or investigating the reports or subjecting the video to analysis is a good thing that we do not depend on the National Guard or Air Force to investigate UFO sightings.
We seem to have an endless parade of balloons, flares, and dummies to account for these events.
Sincerely yours, Bill Hamilton.
So, the hubbub in Phoenix over the lights continues, once again being called flares, but I have questions, as does Bill Hamilton.
My question is, what about transponders?
Are military aircraft not required to run them?
And if not, wouldn't that seem to be a terrible hazard to civilian navigation?
Maybe somebody can answer that question for me, particularly in night flight situations.
And then, of course, you've got Bill Hamilton's, I think, questions that absolutely must be answered.
At any rate, off and running with Richard C. Hoagland in a moment.
Are you one of the new numbers?
That's 888-GOLD, G-O-L-D, K-R-C.
And now to the new home of Richard C. Hoagland.
Who is now a Southwesterner in, um, as a matter of fact, in, uh, or near Albuquerque, New Mexico.
Is that, is that the way we ought to call, uh, Richard C. Hoagland?
Uh, is that where we ought to say you are now?
Yeah, I'm kind of on the northern slope of the Sandias at about 6,500 feet, and at the risk of being competitive, it's from the higher desert.
Indeed it is.
It is gorgeous.
I'm sitting here A mile and a half from the sky, looking at this gorgeous view, 360 degrees, stars that will not quit, a quarter moon about to rise in an hour, and far to the southeast, about a quarter of the way around the world are, as we were starting this program this morning, the helical rising of Sirius.
In the dawn skies over Cairo, Egypt, over the Great Pyramid, the close of this 1461 year As we launch, and before we launch, you heard what I had to say with regard to Phoenix.
Phoenix, Arizona literally closes and begins.
It's the arc or it's the beginning of the end and the end of the beginning.
So as we launch and before we launch, you heard what I had to say with regard to Phoenix.
It's all blown up again, Richard, in the Phoenix newspapers.
They're saying it's flares.
And I thought we probably ought to get your reaction to that.
It's hot in Phoenix.
Well, first of all, I don't believe it.
Second, I still don't believe it.
The timing is stunning, because this announcement is made literally on the last day of this so-called Phoenix cycle, first of all.
Second, you mean to tell me that we have enough National Guard pilots coming in from out of state, from Maryland, into Arizona, That no one remembered that this was all going on that night?
Even after all this national hubbub, and the governor, and the mayor, and Francis, and Senator McCain, and you know, pundits, and COPL inquiring, and nobody remembered the National Guard from the state of Maryland was actually out there that night?
No, apparently not until now.
The other thing, and I'm not an expert in this, but I would think they would be using transponders operating jets at night.
Well, not only that, but there are two other interesting anomalies.
You mentioned the two air controllers from the tower.
Yes.
There was a pilot of a commercial jet, I think it was a 737, leaving from Sky Harbor, who reported that the V-shaped object with the lights was right above him.
That's correct.
And there was no, not only no transponder, but at that close range, the tower should have painted on A-10s, which is what the National Guard is claiming they were flying, Uh, what they call skin track.
Radar signals literally off the metal of the airplane's skin.
Well, I think that they're trying to claim that the flares were dropped at the Barry Goldwater Air Force Range, 60 miles southwest.
Of Phoenix?
How does that explain the airline pilot seeing the object directly above him in Sky Harbor?
I don't know.
I guess they are figuring the Slayer has drifted, in precise formulation, all those miles.
I don't know.
It seems to me there should have been some radar, even if it was that far away, there should have been transponders operating.
No, you know what, this is as silly as the Air Force dummy thing for Roswell.
Yeah.
This is getting worse and worse.
If these are the people charged our national defense, we're in trouble.
You know, it's the same caliber of Saturday Night at the Movies or Keystone Cops that we're going to talk about in the next hour or two regarding the operations of the Pathfinder mission.
Alright.
Which is why we have Marvin and Ken coming on in an hour from now or so.
Because professional people who do what they do in their daily activities cannot be this incompetent or this, you know, out of touch unless someone is mandating that they appear to be.
Richard, we do not have as good a telephone connection as we normally do.
What sort of phone are you on?
I'm on a portable.
That's the problem.
I will switch to another one.
All right.
Yes.
Okay.
That notwithstanding, what we want to do at the top of this evening is to segue nicely to the pyramids.
As you know, this is the dawn in Cairo when the close of this week that began on the 20th commences.
This is the end of the cycle, the beginning of the next.
Yes.
With the helical rising of Sirius.
Now, we were projecting that in this mysterious secret tunneling that was being done, some kind of ceremony to inaugurate this new Sophic cycle would take place at this dawn at Isa, even as we are speaking now.
And I have been in touch this week with Larry Hunter, who was back in Egypt, our eyes and ears with all of his Colleagues and confederates and people he's known for like 20 years watching over everything.
So if anything is going on in a few hours, we should know.
All right.
Larry Hunter, of course, thought there was a dig going on between the king and queen's chamber.
Well, actually, that's not quite true.
Larry has been telling us that there is a set of secret rooms lower down in the pyramid.
And that what we were suspecting, and what he apparently confirmed with his photographs, was tunneling from above the King's Chamber in an effort to go down and connect with these rooms.
Right.
Daniel Brinkley... The tunneling began above the King's Chamber in both our scenarios.
Yes.
Daniel Brinkley reports, indeed, in a discussion with Zahi Hawass, he confirms, Zahi confirmed, they are digging, but it is all above the King's Chamber.
Right.
Okay, earlier this week I had a call, I had two calls from Mohammad Sharidi, who is the editor of Al-Waq, which is the major opposition newspaper in Cairo.
He and Larry Hunter, literally, you know the old joke about bearding the lion in his den?
Yes.
They went to Hawass' office and they had tea.
And Hawass was Deferential to Charity because he represents a significant editorial opinion in Cairo.
Yes.
But he was incensed that Larry would have the temerity to come to his office and sit down and ask for tea and a whole, you know, big soap opera went on about that.
The confrontation basically revolved around the data we put on our website relating to the pyramid, relating to the potential secret tunneling and the bags of limestone that are photographed And are clearly there in the article we published.
Well, not just the bags, but the camera turned away, the power cord, the whole thing.
Yep.
Well, what Hawass flatly claimed to Charity was that there was no such tunneling going on.
Period.
Absolutely not.
Really?
The only thing he said he was doing was cleaning hieroglyphics upstairs above the King's Chamber.
Now this is pretty amazing because There are no hieroglyphics upstairs above the King's Chamber.
There are some red painted dog marks, which Howard Weiss found in 1837, which are in dispute between Egyptologists and others as to whether they were even part of the original pyramid construction.
There is a major contention by Zacharias Sitchin that they are fakes.
And he provided good data that they in fact were faked by Howard Weiss back in 1837.
Alright.
So, Hawass is upstairs cleaning them.
Now, here's a problem.
The upper-level chambers are made of granite.
They are composed of 70-ton blocks, which have been cracked by massive earthquakes in the last several thousand years, of granite slabs placed crosswise across the King's Chamber in five relieving chambers up above.
The bags of limestone that Larry and company found And that Mr. Danley is going to confirm in his discussion in a few minutes, would be absolutely ill-suited, if not silly, to be used to repair or to restore granite blocks.
This limestone is so friable, I mean, you have a chunk of it, right?
Yes, I do.
It is so soft that you can literally crumble it in your hand.
That's true.
The idea that you would repair granite with limestone is not even worthy of discussion.
What is crucial, of course, in resolving this contention, which Hawass is claiming nothing's going on, I claim from my sources that there's a lot going on, and Damien Brinkley claims from talking to Hawass that Hawass is admitting there's something going on, somewhere in all of this we've got to get the story straight.
So what I recommended tonight is that we get a hold of Tom Danley, who was there in November with the Shore Expedition, and Wonder of Wonders actually had free time And wound up upstairs above the King's Chamber in the very tunnel that we're discussing as it was being begun.
So he was actually up there?
He was a first-person witness.
He is a trained engineer, observer.
He was conducting some other interesting observations of the pyramid, which he may or may not want to discuss tonight.
But the key factor in his witness testimony is he was there, he is credible, He has had experiments flown on the shuttle, which we might want to get into.
They're kind of interesting and neat.
All right.
He is a very reliable witness, and he was there.
All right.
Do you want to bring him on quickly?
Let's bring him on now.
All right.
Let's introduce him.
Here is Tom Danley.
Tom?
Hello, everyone.
Good morning.
Good morning, Tom.
Don't everybody speak twice?
We only have a couple of minutes here, a minute or so before the break, but you confirm what Richard just said, that in fact you crawled up there yourself?
Yes.
In the process of doing the measurements was in all of the chambers, and there is a tunnel that goes, oh gosh, I would guess about 50 feet at the time that I was there.
And it's interesting that you bring up the possibility of a ceremony or something because in two places in that tunnel it is expanded out to be something like, well, a small room, enough to get perhaps 10 or 12 people in.
Really?
Yeah.
You didn't note any artifacts of a celebration, did you?
No, no.
At the time it was strictly rough-hewn stone.
All right.
All right, Tom, hold on, and Richard, hang tight.
Richard is going to be changing to a better phone during this break.
And we'll be back, and we'll find out what's going on in Egypt.
It is very, very interesting, isn't it?
I'm Art Bell, and this is CBC reminding you, by the way, my book, The Quickening, is now available just about everywhere in America.
Barnes & Noble, Bookstores everywhere, Borders, Wolfenbooks, that sort of thing.
The Quickening by Art Bell.
available all over the place.
I'm going to play a little bit of it.
That's 702-727-1295.
First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222.
Now, here again, Art Bell.
That's 702-727-1295. First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222. Now, here again, Art Bell.
Good morning. As the night wears on, those with computers, or access, I guess I ought to say,
to the World Wide Web are going to have a big advantage because they're going to be able to see
what we are going to no doubt be in some dispute about.
There's a whole range of photographs taken by the Mars Pathfinder and its little bug friend, Gate Lewis, Uh, from San Diego writes, uh, that KNSDTV, the NBC affiliate in San Diego, ran the same old March 13th video and explained it again as flares.
This time they were more explicit.
According to the Air Force, they were flares dropped by HNs over this, get this, Barry Goldwater range.
So confirming that.
Moreover, Sorry, no mention of any dummies, but they did say, and this is worthy of questions, the flares were attached parachutes to keep them aloft for 5, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 minutes.
And now all they need to do is account for the other 101 minutes or so.
That witnesses claim they saw all of this.
Once again, Richard C. Hoagland and Tom Danly, a former NASA consultant and acoustic expert.
Richard?
Yeah, Tom, why don't you, before we launch into this remarkable adventure you had on the pyramid, and we're very envious, I gotta tell you that, why don't you give people kind of a thumbnail sketch as to who you are and how you wound up having this interesting adventure?
Okay, well, My area of interest is acoustics, which is sound and electronics.
Specifically, most of my career I have designed transducers.
That's things that convert electricity into sound, like a speaker or going the other way, microphones.
I worked for a company called Intersonics in Northbrook, Illinois, building the transducers that were used to produce acoustic levitation.
Uh, which requires very intense sound.
And I was filmed, uh, by the crew that was filming a movie called Mystery of the Sphinx, uh, demonstrating that.
That was a Charlton Heston NBC special that Boris Saeed produced?
Yes.
And John West.
Did I understand correctly that you said, uh, acoustic levitation?
Yes.
Um, you can, using very intense sound, actually support things in mid-air.
I like the magician's trick, levitation, except this is actually happening.
Well, that's a new one on me.
I appreciate your explaining that.
Well, they're very tiny things.
I mean, we're talking a few grams, a few ounces, right?
Yes.
It has to do partly with the frequency that you use.
The larger the object, the lower it is, and certainly the more difficult it is for a person to be around it then.
But we levitated, let's say, a quarter inch square stone.
That was about the largest thing that I was able to levitate for Boris and the crew.
All right.
Well, that's remarkable enough.
You consulted NASA in what capacity?
Well, we built space hardware using the acoustic levitation to manufacture new materials that
were processed at such high temperatures that there weren't any containers available. So
what we would do is levitate the sample in the middle of a furnace. And then to make
the job easier, that was done in zero gravity. We flew payloads on two shuttle flights and
some sounding rocket flights and that kind of stuff.
understand what work took you to Giza to the pyramid Why were you there?
Well, the same producer, Boris, called me and asked me if I could take measurements inside the pyramid of the acoustics, because it has, anyone who's ever been inside there is usually struck by the sound properties, especially If you're laying in the sarcophagus in the King's Chamber.
So he asked me to take a look at the mechanical drawings of the place and see if I could guess what I might find.
So I did that analysis and then he said, well, good.
Get your equipment together because you're going to Egypt.
So he sent me over there with a film crew.
And we spent, gosh, I spent four nights in the pyramid after all the visitors had left.
Oh, you poor guy.
Yeah.
Well, I was sitting, in fact, on the floor with my equipment At 1.30 in the morning, thinking about my kids back home going trick-or-treating.
You probably sound a little like a modern Indiana Jones.
Yes, particularly later when we had to place the sensors and microphones in the upper layers of the structure.
It's a little bit like spelunking, except you're going up some of the time.
It's of course absolutely pitch black, so you have to wear lights on your head, you know, mining lights.
And it was quite an adventure, I'll say that, that's for sure.
All right.
The major import of your being here this evening, I presume, Tom, is to tell us what you actually observed up above the King's Chamber to be going on.
Okay.
That was the first place we were going to go.
So to get there, you go up a long rickety ladder and grab a hold of some ropes and crawl into a cave that's at the very top of the Grand Gallery.
That makes a turn.
These images are on our website, by the way.
All right.
Yeah, those are good pictures too.
Much better than the ones I took.
Anyway, once you're in the first lair, Uh, above the King's Chamber, it has a ceiling that's about three feet high or so, maybe a little bit higher.
And while the, uh, the other guys were dragging the batteries and the lights and the camera up, uh, I was looking around and saw a hole in the wall, which I had read in the, um, Tompkins book was a robber's cave from a long time ago.
Uh, anyway, I went in there and it went in about, Well, the wall is about almost three feet thick, so it went in three feet and then turned.
Now, this wall is the granite wall.
Correct.
On the south side of that first chamber, the so-called Davidson's Chamber, above the Grand Gallery, above the King's Chamber.
Correct.
That's exactly right.
And it goes for maybe eight or ten feet, and then there's sort of a small spherical cavity, almost round, that was carved in.
The tunnel continued from that point, and all of it looked completely new from that point on.
In other words, from old wall to new wall.
Yeah.
New cut.
Yeah, the old tunnel is at least 100, maybe 200 years old, Art.
Okay.
And so you can clearly tell when you got old limestone, which has been crawled over and crawled over and crawled over, and then you break into brand new tunneling.
Yeah, it really showed up.
In fact, you can still see the little white marks from the chisels that they use there
to chisel out the limestone.
Well, this doesn't sound like they're just cleaning up there, unless they're cleaning
up what falls off after they chisel it off.
Exactly.
And there aren't any hieroglyphics.
There's just one hand-drawn, very crude hieroglyphic on the wall in the top chamber.
There aren't any other.
I mean, there's lots of graffiti from hundreds of years ago, but no hieroglyphics.
Alright then, as a layman, I wish to ask, what do either one or both of you, uh, think they are looking for up there?
Well, let's let Tom describe, because this tunnel is so interesting, and then he went and looked in another part of the pyramid, and found the bags of the stuff from the tunnel.
Well, the new work extended for, gosh, 30 or 40 feet perhaps.
It's kind of hard to tell because you're on your hands and knees the whole time, but it's a good long distance.
And it ended in a, well, not exactly a spherical cavity also, but a fairly large room, maybe six by six feet or six by eight feet, something like that.
Right.
Large enough for a number of people to get in.
And it wasn't clear at all from anything I could see on the walls why they would choose
to go from a fairly small cave to this larger cavity right off the top of the head.
How far was the tunnel until you reached that first little room?
About ten feet.
Eight or ten feet.
Okay.
A better question would be, if they're going somewhere, why would they bother to dig a little room?
Well, you're right.
Right.
And then it went back to this narrow, what, four foot... I can only imagine that as they dug, they reached a point where they thought something would be adjacent to their dig and began to enlarge the area.
Is that a logical conclusion?
That's very logical, yeah.
And in fact, this tunnel goes now parallel.
It goes west with the granite wall of the Davidson Chamber to your right.
So you got granite on your right and limestone above, below, and to your left.
And then you go down toward the west about 10 feet.
You get to this room.
Then it goes back to the small tunnel, Tom.
Is that right?
That's correct.
Then it keeps going another how many feet?
Oh, to the end, probably 30 more feet.
And then there's another room.
Yeah.
Right?
Right.
So there are two people.
Now, you're describing it as a room, but again, I want to suggest it probably was not an intended room.
They probably reached a point where they thought something is very near us.
Let's enlarge it.
Yep.
Yeah, it's certainly not hewn out with the precision of most of the other places I went in, you know, where they bother to make square corners and stuff like that.
This is basically just Carved out and much, much bigger than the tunnel was to begin with.
Now, Tom, this is all done by hand.
Describe the conditions under which you found yourself.
Well, this would have been really hard to do.
Just crawling through there once raises a big cloud of dust.
And these guys would have had to have worked for, I would guess, quite a long time.
in these choking dust conditions.
With the miner's light on, crawling out, it was kind of cool because it was like a laser
beam because it was so dusty cutting through the...
Now this was in November, right?
Right.
And remember Art, I predicted that there were certain times when one would try to go into
the Socolites chamber?
Yes.
And we got confirmation from Larry's trip that a guard had seen certain people entering and putting equipment into that shaft in the Queen's Chamber way down below in October.
Then in November, first, you know, another member of the Shore Expedition, and now Tom, report first-hand witness testimony that there is a tunneling project going on just a few days
or maybe a week or two after that ceremonial entry on October 20th.
Okay, this is very interesting.
Now again I want to pose my question.
What do either one or both of you think they are looking for?
Boy, I don't have a clue personally, but one of the things that really did impress me about
the pyramid was that it was so large that you could have quite a few other unknown rooms
in there without any trouble at all.
That is an absolutely colossal structure and the people that built it were clever enough to hide Other things, too, if they had chosen to.
Well, you wouldn't think they would blindly be digging.
So, uh, they're digging as a result of somebody's technical information that they see something.
That's what I believe.
And I think that they're trying to find an access route to what I call this ISIS chamber, which is the chamber proposed to be behind the Gent and Brink door.
Now, if you look at a side view of the pyramid, And you look at the way the known rooms are spaced in it, kind of a plan view looking from east to west.
You've got down below the Queen's Chamber, up above that the King's Chamber.
On the left-hand side of the diagram, to the south, you've got this sloping shaft at 40 degrees that goes 188 feet up, and then there's this little door.
And the shaft is what, 8 inches wide, right Tom?
Right.
That's the so-called starshaft or airshaft, although it was never an airshaft.
Above that, in the Davidson's Chamber, in this tunnel that you were in, if you were to strike now off that tunnel heading west, at right angles to the south, you would intercept, like a right triangle, that proposed room.
I gotcha.
And those two widened spaces, I would imagine, are the places where they calculate if they send shafts south, horizontally, They will intercept that room at two separate places or one will intercept and the other might miss.
In other words, they're trying to find a way to find out how big it is by getting over to it through two separate shafts.
Richard, then why would you speculate at two points along this dig they widened the area?
Looking for what?
Well, that would be where you would be digging your 90 degree tunnel to the south and you would need to have room to actually fill the bags.
Tell the audience how you have to get into these upper chambers.
Now go to the bag stop and tell him where you found the bags.
Okay well after that lair we went up to the next level and when we crawled through the
hole into that cavity.
Let me stop you there.
Tell the audience how you have to get into these upper chambers.
This is not a mahogany staircase that Scarlett O'Hara could ascend or descend.
This is like crawling up a chimney out of Mary Poppins right?
Yeah, in fact it was kind of scary.
I'm not a freestyle rock climber and I imagine if I was I would have felt more at home doing this, but basically what you're doing is climbing.
Imagine a cave stood on end and you're climbing up.
It's a very rough, irregular thing that you're climbing in.
Oh boy.
In fact, we had some very rickety non-OSHA approved ladders, but if I hadn't had somebody help me, I don't think I could have gotten up into the top one by myself.
You don't appreciate how big everything is until you're there.
Each layer is about ten feet from the next one.
It's one hell of a fall down the chimney with sharp edges.
Bang, bang, bang, bang all the way down.
Yes, it would be most... Painful.
Most unpleasant.
Anyway, after taking the measurements in the first layer, we went up one, and as I crawled through the opening there, I noticed on the wall right along to the left of where you enter the room, A large pile of burlap bags full of tailings from, I presume, down below.
Now think about this.
It's hot.
It's dusty.
There's gravity.
And instead of digging the tunnel and filling the bags and taking them down, they take them up and hide them in the next upper chamber.
This is not a non-clandestine activity.
Yeah.
That's incredible.
Nobody would take bags of limestone up such a terrible, treacherous tunnel unless they really wanted to hide something.
Yes, it really would have been a pain in the rear to move those.
So somebody's doing something clandestine up above the King's Chamber.
As of November 96.
Now, Zahi is telling Charity and Hunter, nothing is going on.
Hoagland is a liar.
Larry, you're a liar.
There's no digging.
There's no tunneling.
Whatever.
He's telling Damien Brinkley, I'm tunneling.
I'm going to make some amazing discoveries.
He's telling the English folks that he's cleaning hieroglyphics.
Which Mr. Hawass is real, and would he please stand up, or at least stand still?
Yeah, good question.
Tell them, Tom, what happened when you got his guy in there.
Well, we were accompanied by a person they call an inspector, who was in charge of security for that area at the time.
And when we came out that night, I told him that I had found this cave.
I had to explain it to him a couple of times because he was kind of disbelieving and asked me to draw a map, so I did.
Then the next evening we were there, he borrowed one of our miner's lights and climbed up inside there to look for himself.
He works for, I think he is one level isolated from Zahi.
In other words, his boss reports to Zahi and he was going to report him.
So I presume he did.
But we don't know the results of that.
That's right.
Richard, we're at the end of an hour here.
What do you want to do?
Let's hold Tom for a few minutes after the news because I want to clear up a couple of points.
Alright, good enough.
Both of you hold on.
Tom Danley?
And Richard C. Hoagland, presently our guests, and we're discussing what's going on in Egypt, trying to figure out what's really going on on the plateau.
I'm Art Bell, and from the high desert, perhaps not quite as high as Richard's, this is the CBC Radio Network.
The Talk Station AM 1500 KSTP So you could listen?
All right.
A personal 24-hour toll free helpline and much more.
I invite you to listen.
In fact, I challenge some of you to listen to Dreamland.
Sunday nights at 9 on AM 1500 KSTP.
1-800-KSTP.
Call Art Bell toll-free West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255 1-800-618-8255 East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033
One evening...
This is the CBC Radio Network.
It is indeed, and I've got a couple of announcements.
Coming back in a moment with Richard C. Hoagland is Tom Danley, a former NASA consultant and acoustic expert who crawled where hardly any man has crawled before in the pyramid, telling us all kinds of interesting things that are going on up there.
And so we'll get back to them in a moment.
One of our next guests, Marv Zarnik, and Ken Franklin specifically.
Ken, if you're out there listening, you better call my private number and give us your number because, Ken, somehow it has disappeared from Richard's Rolodex and I never did get it from you.
Presuming Richard had it, so if Ken Franklin is out there, he needs to call my private number and slip us his private number.
There is, once again, a great controversy in Phoenix about the lights back on March 13th, saying there was a Maryland Air National Guard group of A-10s that dropped them, and that they would have lasted for five minutes.
By Parachute Mike in Campbell, California says, Hi Art, the explanation for the extra 101 minutes is simple and obvious, isn't it?
Yet another example of time compression.
All right, now back to Richard C. Hoagland, really up in the mountains in New Mexico, near Albuquerque.
Richard, you're back on.
And so, for that matter, is Tom Danley.
Gentlemen, welcome back.
Okay.
First, a logistical note.
We have found Ken Johnston's number.
It's not Ken Franklin.
Ken Franklin was my former boss at the Hayden Planetarium.
I'm going by your letter to me, Richard.
I know.
I know.
It's Ken Johnston.
Okay.
Anyway, we do have his number, so when we switch off from Tom, I will get that to you, and Ken is sitting there in Seattle saying, Ken who?
Anyway, Tom, why don't you finish with this segue in terms of the bag, because when you went and got the inspector, and he evidenced a really interesting surprise, a guy who works for Hawass, this raises a really interesting speculation as to what might be going on.
So why don't you wrap that part of it up?
Okay.
Well, I did, like I said before, I did take some explanation before he appeared to really believe what I was saying about the digging and stuff.
I couldn't really tell from his reaction why he was reluctant to tell his boss.
It could be that since he was in charge of security there, that maybe this doesn't look good for him or his boss, or exactly what, I'm not sure.
But so far as I know, he certainly was going to tell his boss and take him up there.
Now, as an acoustic expert, could you give us a feel for the acoustics of the place?
If you were in the King's Chamber and someone was upstairs digging, could you hear it?
Probably not, unless they were out over the middle of the ceiling.
Granite actually conducts sound pretty well.
In other words, if you're on the other side of the ceiling, even though those slabs are four or five feet thick, I wouldn't be surprised if you could hear.
Maybe you could even hear them working in the area adjacent to that.
The thing is, during the day there are so many tourists going in and out that would certainly muffle the sound.
So you could have crews upstairs digging with little picks and adzes in that dark, small, confined, terribly dusty hot place, filling the bags, which was reason for those rooms, those enlargements, then hauling them up to the next level chamber And the tourists coming in down below, one flight down, would never even know it.
Oh, absolutely.
Just the hole in the wall at the top of the Grand Gallery where you access the first layer, that's about 40 feet off the ground.
So they would have to go through two 90 degree turns in the tunnel in order to get into that room.
So it would be pretty secluded.
I should mention, too, another location that I saw someone had been working, although I don't know if it was recently, was in the Queen's Chamber.
As you enter into the room on the left side, there's what looks like the entryway to a room.
There's a so-called niche.
Yes, a niche.
And that had a steel grate over it, which I didn't have nerve enough to remove.
But one of the instruments I had measures distances using sound, and that room I got the latest echo would put it at about 120 feet from there.
And then also in the Queen's Chamber, I measured the length of the air passages, or starshafts.
Including the critical southern one that Gattenbrink sent the robot up.
That's correct.
And?
Well, what I saw on the one that the robot was in were two reflections.
One of them was about 30 feet before the end.
What I measured on both of them is the longest distance was 212 feet and the The second reflection on the one with the door would have been about 30 feet short of that.
Okay, the first reflection, why were you getting the first reflection?
Does that indicate some sort of turn?
Well, a turn probably wouldn't be enough, but a change in the cross-sectional area of the tunnel would be maybe a small room or something like that.
In other words, an acoustic discontinuity.
Okay.
It was somewhere up there, about 30 feet from the end.
You saw a spike and then you saw the end?
Right.
All right.
Now this is important because Gant and Brink's robot measured the distance from where the air shaft starts, where it starts to bend up, to the door as around 185 or so feet.
If Tom is seeing two double reflections, then he's seeing maybe the door, which is the end of the shaft, And then he's getting an echo from the sound leaking through the crack under the door, hitting the far wall of the ISIS chamber at 212 feet.
Yeah, so it has to be something like that.
In fact, the echoes were strong enough where it would have to be something fairly substantial behind the door.
Or around the door.
I don't know what's up there.
Both reflections were nice and strong, so it wasn't a case of, well, maybe there's a reflection.
And I repeated the measurement a number of times, and it was the same.
So there's a 30-foot cavity or room behind that door, and that's the one where the tunnels, I believe, in our model were going.
And if I'm right, at the very moment we're on the air this morning, Half a world away in Egypt, there is a secret ceremony presided over by some very interesting people celebrating the close of this phoenix cycle and the dawn of the new sapphic phoenix cycle for the next 1,400 years.
All right.
All right.
Well, I certainly want to thank you very much, Tom, for coming on the air and relating all of this to us.
OK, thank you.
Thank you.
And Richard, hold tight.
We'll be right back.
We're going to get Ken on the phone, and Ken Johnston, that is.
Not... Ken Franklin.
I don't know how we got Ken Franklin.
Ken Johnston.
And, as well, Marv Czarnik.
And so, stand by for all of that coming up.
The Messengers, from pocketbooks wherever books are sold.
A story that will change your life.
It may indeed.
Alright, I'm Art Bell.
With me, Richard C. Hoagland, Engstrom Science Award winner, advisor to Walter Cronkite at one time and NASA.
And now coming up, hopefully, if all this phone stuff works correctly,
Marv Zarnik and Ken Johnston.
And these are two seasoned NASA veterans, and we are going to be discussing what's going on,
not in Egypt, or are we?
But rather on Mars.
Richard, are you there?
I'm here.
Alright, let's see if we have made connection.
Marv Zarnik, are you there?
Yes, sir, I am.
And Ken Johnson?
I'm glad to say I finally made the connection.
Alright, we are all here.
Richard, how do you want to proceed?
Well, let's do a segue here.
Let's connect the dots between Egypt and a place about 15 million miles away called Mars.
As you know, About a week or so ago, we were in Phoenix, Arizona, presiding over a set of symposia, talking about a potential connection between Phoenix, Egypt, and the Pathfinder mission.
Yes.
And one of the things that we pointed out is that this is a very special time in the Egyptian mythos, because literally, tonight, tomorrow morning now, in Egypt already, is the end of a 1400 plus year cycle.
The so-called Sophic Cycle, which is when Sirius, the bright dog star, the brightest star in the sky, 8.7 light years away, the central star in the Egyptian pantheon, representing the goddess Isis, rises just before sunrise, and in a fashion term, the helical rising, just before dawn.
Yes.
That cycle repeats in a very elegant 1,461 years.
It appears to have been the genesis of the so-called Phoenix Legend, the legend of the Banu Bird that is reborn after immolating itself in the ashes of its nest.
It has all kinds of metaphorical and mythological implications and intimations for humankind and civilization and reincarnation and all of those grand ideas that the Egyptians were well known for.
Well, as you know, and as Ken has helped me uncover, there is apparently a small group of people inside NASA, inside the Space Agency, which have not only held to these identical ancient Egyptian beliefs, but they have imprinted them indelibly in the fingerprints of the landings and launchings and coordinates of most of the major missions of the American Space Program, much to everyone's astonishment.
And Marvin, since you haven't been with us on the program since about a year ago, when you were at the National Press Club, you might tell Art your reaction when you saw this data for the first time, given that you participated in the calculations, the equations, and the orbit plots, basically devising these launchings and landings.
Well, my very strong impression was that none of that could happen by circumstance.
It would have to be meticulously planned to have the mission occur the way that it did.
And the probability of that happening on its own is extremely remote.
You might give our audience a thumbnail background on your own history and your own involvement with the aerospace community.
Yeah, I'd be glad to.
I was with McDonnell Douglas for 37 years and worked on the manned spacecraft program through Mercury, Gemini, Skylab, Apollo, and Shuttle.
And did a lot of mission planning and writing mission rules for Uh, several of the Gemini missions.
And I understand enough about mission planning that just about everything is taken into account to make the mission end the way you want it to end.
If you wanted to land at a specific spot on the moon at a specific time It takes meticulous planning all the way back to the launch pad.
Everybody, by the way, does agree that they have landed where they have said they have landed, not anywhere else, correct?
I believe that they have.
Richard, have you settled in on that yourself?
Yeah, and, you know, obviously there's been some controversy because we were projecting based on this pattern that Marvin has just been commenting on, going back to the lunar program.
That there might be some ambiguity and they might be planning surreptitiously to delay the landing of Pathfinder to the 20th.
Right.
And there was some contention at the moment of landing as to whether I agree we were on Mars and what I basically said was, Let's take a wait-and-see attitude, because we'll make two columns.
We'll make a column where the data supports that we're there.
Right.
I'll make another column where there are anomalies and irregularities.
Right.
We have waited.
Now, what have we seen?
Are we there?
Given what we are going to announce tonight, and we have chosen this program, the Arkbell Show, on the morning of the 26th, which will take place in another half hour, all right, in the United States, to make a rather remarkable major announcement of a discovery we have made.
Our team, our effort, our enterprise mission here, in terms of the Pathfinder data.
There is now no doubt in my mind that A, we are on Mars, B, we are at 19.5, and this was part of the plan.
See, the problem is that we're, the three of us, Ken and Marvin and myself, are approaching this from a technical engineering perspective.
The problem is that the guys on the other side, the guys who are running the politics of this, are approaching it from a political perspective.
So their decisions are difficult sometimes to reverse-engineer because they can change.
It's like a pitcher who throws a change-up at the last minute.
Sure.
And what we're looking for here is the larger pattern that is being served by the various events and the various facts we uncover.
But we have now discovered the missing puzzle pieces.
And it has to do with Pathfinder's specific, and I'm going to say it on the air tonight, apparently serendipitous, surreptitious mission.
There are two missions going on.
There's the mission we're getting to see on television, which is kind of Mickey Mouse, and our guys are going to describe that in a minute.
And then there apparently is the real mission, where we have had a major leak, a major insight, a window into what Pathfinder is really doing there.
And we're going to describe what that entails, where the data is, how to look at it on the website, and the steps we're going to take in the coming days, including the invitation to your audience to help us verify this discovery as we proceed through the rest of this mission.
All right.
Well, so far, from a layman's point of view, and any of you are welcome to comment on this, all I've seen them find is red Rocks.
Without major change from what they would expect to find from a red rock here on Earth.
Now, is that wrong?
That's partly correct.
What apparently is going on is that we're being shown red rocks.
But if you start looking at the photographs on the NASA website, which of course now after Phoenix I've had extensive time to go onto the web, download, look at meticulously, You find some astonishing weirdness in the way this data is being laid out.
Most of the people out there tonight who have computers may have started with these little handheld scanners.
You probably had one yourself, Art, before we had the big flatbed.
No, I went straight to a flatbed.
Went to a flatbed.
Well, I started with a handheld scanner.
And the handheld scanner was nice, except that if you wanted to scan large sections of print or pages or whatever, you had to have a program.
That would stitch the stands together.
Which is exactly what NASA is doing with these 360 degree panoramas.
You can tell they're stitched.
Except they're not.
They are the most atrocious stitching I've ever seen.
If that's what our $150 million has bought for this program, then we ought to go back to square one.
Okay, what I have noticed, Richard, is from a layman's point of view, that there are lighter and darker exposures, and that's how I'm able to tell where the stitching occurs.
And I think what you're probably saying is that the stitching is not accurate.
It's not accurate, and there are areas where the photographs are being literally cloned.
All right, gentlemen, hold on.
We're at the bottom of the hour, and we will be right back.
Now we're talking about Mars, the Pathfinder mission, or is it missions?
I'm Art Bell and this is CBC.
The talk station AM 1500 KSTV.
Art Bell is taking calls on the wild card line.
That's 702-727-1295.
First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222.
Now, here again, Art Bell.
That's 702-727-1295.
First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222.
Now, here again, Art Bell.
A stitch in time saves what?
Maybe we're about to find out.
I'm Art Bell.
Three, the Sea Crane Company.
Now, again, we're talking about the Mars mission with Richard Hoagland, Marv Zarnik, and Ken Johnston.
The latter two being NASA experts, long-seasoned NASA veterans.
And so back to all three of these gentlemen.
Richard?
Well, the thing I was talking about is the imaging.
We have come now 20 years down the road from Viking.
And remember, I was with Walter, and I was at JPL, and I live that Viking experience every day during that incredible summer in 1976.
The technology that we had to prosecute Vikings, this billion dollar mission, with much more primitive cameras, and much more primitive DSN, Deep Space Network operations, etc., etc., was Amazing.
It was seamless.
It was flawless.
When you look at the panoramas produced from those scans, they're cruder.
They're lower resolution because the iTech scanning system was not CCD technology.
It wasn't what's in the EMP camera on Pathfinder now.
Right.
But the whole technology around it was working coherently so much better.
We have modern digital computers, we have laptops, we have the internet, we have, you know, microencoders.
They know where this camera is pointed to within fractions of a fraction of a degree.
And there are programs that exist, which you can download from the internet yourself, that would allow one to seamlessly stitch together with no flaws, from the lander right out to the horizon, within, you know, an hour or so, all these pictures.
And yet when you look at the web, when you look at what NASA's putting out there, it's amateur night.
And gentlemen, Ken, Marvin... Well, Ken, I know is an expert in this area.
Is that an accurate statement, Ken?
Amateur night?
Well, I was going to point out to Richard the fact that 28 years ago when we were doing the panoramas on the Apollo lunar program, We were actually taking the real photos and cutting them
and splicing them together and did an even better job back then to line up the themes, as
you would call them, of the different horizons, the different rocks.
So these pictures we are getting back from Mars, they are off by centimeters almost.
It is amazing.
And there are duplications.
What is most disturbing to me is that there is a device in digital computer programs now
like Photoshop or Photostyle or any of those graphics that allows you to take a cutout,
move it over and then paste it in another part of the scene.
Sure.
I can show you, and what we probably should do on our website in the next few days, is to list examples, show examples, where given scenes have been cloned, have been duplicated over and over, where rocks are literally two or three times moved up to the left, to the right, and around, And the general impression is, if you see straight edges or see anomalies, instead of saying, oh my God, this is an anomaly on Mars, the impression is going to be, oh, it's an anomaly in the stupid photo processing, and then you discount all anomalies in the scene.
And that appears to be a very careful, deliberate, political, conscious act.
The technology is there to do it perfectly, and it's not being used And it was being used 10, 20, 30 years ago, so what's going on?
Alright, what are we saying when we say there are straight edges?
What is the implication?
Now Mars, this was a flood plain, so everything, I would take it, you believe, you all believe, should be rounded, is that correct?
Well, not just rounded.
Some of the edges, if you happen to be in the area where the water flow is gone, you might find some straight edges.
You're going to have to zoom in, Ken.
You're going to have to get closer to the phone.
Okay.
I'm saying that in the area where, unless you're looking at the edge where the water flowed, you wouldn't necessarily get the straight edges.
And then again, they're probably not going to be parallel to another section.
Okay.
What we're seeing is very interesting anomalies in the foreground.
Which get even more interesting as you go to the background.
And again, there's a context to all this.
If we didn't have this stunning leak that we're going to talk about in a few minutes, which is on the web, which is the super resolution view of the right twin peak in the frame, on the horizon, about a half a mile away.
If that hadn't deliberately been put out on the NASA They had a press conference on Tuesday when they regained communication with the lander after losing it for about a day and a half between the 19th and 20th.
Remember, they had a communications problem again with the lander.
Yes, on a very interesting date.
Yep.
Anyway, when they came back and announced there, we're back press conference, all right?
Dr. Peter Smith at the University of Arizona, who is the principal scientist, the principal investigator, on the Lander Imaging Experiment, the IMP camera, laid out a series of new images, including something called the Presidential Panorama, which was apparently taken on the 20th, which is kind of remarkable.
Now, wait a minute.
Oh, wait a minute.
How could that have been taken on the 20th?
The story I had is they had a carrier wave on the 20th only.
No information whatsoever.
Now, did they in fact get information that was later downloaded?
Well, we don't know.
The timeline here is very confusing, and if you compare various people, even the press in the news conferences could not follow the story.
And one participant would give one reason for problems, and another one would give another reason, and Robin Cook, who is the chief engineer, basically said during one of his segments, he says, I don't know why we couldn't communicate with it.
He just said he didn't know.
All right.
What I heard on CNN, and maybe one of the other two gentlemen here, Marv or Kim, can comment on this, is that they had missed, by 10 minutes, the communication window with Pathfinder.
Now, how do they miss, by 10 minutes, a communication time?
Richard, let me jump in on that one, if I may.
Back when we were doing the lunar flights, when we would have a spacecraft go behind the moon, we would be preparing for AOS, or acquisition of signal.
We could pinpoint right down to the fraction of a minute when the spacecraft would come around and it would be able to see the Earth and we'd be able to acquire the signal.
Now we're talking about 28, 30 years ago that we were doing this with computers extremely crude compared to the modern laptop we have today.
And this is from a spacecraft which is orbiting Not sitting on the surface, but orbiting a body which is subject to solar tidal influences, mascons in the moon, irregularities, all which could be modeled 30 years ago in those big old mainframe computers and accurate predicts given so within fractions of a second.
The astronauts can.
Remember how they used to say that they had such confidence in Houston because literally to a fraction of a second the Earth disappeared when it was supposed to?
And reappear when it was supposed to?
That was one of the most comforting things that they talked about, that they knew exactly when they'd lose the signal, and exactly when they'd come in.
And you were pointing out that the Moon is orbiting around the Earth, it's rotating, and the Earth is moving, etc.
Whereas you don't have nearly as complicated a scenario when you're looking at just Mars and the Earth.
No, you're sitting on a planet, 50 million miles away, it's rotating every 24 hours, 37 minutes, and a few seconds.
And it's as reliable and as predictable, Art, as sunrise tomorrow morning.
Well, I tracked NOAA satellites here from my home, and they are utterly, totally, completely reliable.
You get the signal when you're supposed to, and it goes away when they say it will.
It's as simple as that.
So is it possible, is it possible that they missed it by 10 minutes, or is that some sort of story?
Marvin?
My estimation, it has to be a story.
It can't be an oversight unless we've thrown away 35 years of experience in running missions.
Someone out there at the control site should have been yelling into the headsets that, hey, you've got five minutes to go or ten minutes to go to loss of signal.
Send the command.
Yeah.
And, you know, the time for acquisition of loss of signal has got to be known.
Very precisely.
Unless we've gone backwards.
What is all this 35, 40 years of experience worth if we've lost it, if we've thrown it away?
What has happened to NASA?
In your expert opinion then, Omar, there's just no way they could have missed it by that much unless they wanted to.
Well, there is a way, and that would be through rudder incompetence.
And I don't believe that NASA has gotten that bad that quickly.
Could it be that they were all overtired and they just... I mean, there are so many people involved, you would think that one person might miss it, but not a control room full of... That's my point.
There isn't just one person involved.
There's several, and each one is monitoring the other.
They're looking at data on screens and everybody knows what the next action is and who's got it and when he's got to have it ready.
Well, it's even more interesting because we've had now seven months of cruise when basically the lander teams, the lander engineers, the scientists, the operations people had nothing to do but wait and to practice and to simulate.
Sure.
And the program that are running this are computer programs which are running on clock time.
They're running on very accurate, you know, millisecond or better clock time.
You bet, and you would assume there would be alarms built in for events as they occur.
Well, yeah, because the most important thing you can do with a spacecraft is either communicate or not communicate with it at the right time.
That's the mission rule.
If you can't hear it, you can't fix it.
So that's the most important thing you protect.
It's like, you know, the sanctuary in a church.
And the idea that you miss it by ten minutes, you know, these people must think we're all out to lunch.
So, that raises the specter of a hidden agenda.
Alright, that's where I wanted to go.
What would you suspect the motivation would be for missing the communication time?
Publicly, anyway.
Because then you don't have to report to the press what you found out when you didn't miscommunication and you got the data you really want.
And this occurred on the 20th?
On the 20th.
And what data do any of you or all of you suspect they might have been looking for on the 20th?
Guys, you want to jump in or you want me to?
Go ahead.
You got it up on the website.
We need to talk about that pretty soon.
Yep.
Well, we've got on the website this amazing breakthrough.
And tonight's program, Martin, is going to go down in the record books because not only is it the beginning of the next Phoenix Cycle, but we think we have been given, leaked from inside, a window on the real Pathfinder mission.
Now let's back up a minute.
Remember, we did not land at a random place on Mars.
19.5.
Landed at 19.5.
That's the latitude.
Now, the latitude of your landing on a planet is invariant.
In other words, it doesn't depend on a human convention on civilization deciding latitudes and longitudes.
It's determined by the spin axis of a planet, alright?
Now, how we divide it into numbers is human-derived, but the actual position is invariant relative to the rotation axis of the planet.
The longitude You know, where you are west or east of a given meridian line going from pole to pole, that is an arbitrary convention.
Now what the International Astronomical Union did about a hundred years ago, and modified maybe in the 60s when the space program was really going and we were getting our first mission, Mariner 4 to Mars, is they established the equivalent of Martian Greenwich.
Which is a line which runs from the pole down through a region called Meridiani Sinus, which means Central Meridian, down to the South Pole.
It is about nine and a half degrees east of this place we call Cydonia.
It is about 33 degrees and change east of where Pathfinder has landed in the Terrestrial 360 Coordinate System.
Okay.
If, however, you say that that's a modern invention, and that the stuff at Cydonia and the DNM Pyramid really marks the original Martian Prime Meridian left by the guys who left the stuff we've been looking at, and there's a lot of reason to think that that's true, most important of which is the discovery by Carl Monk, this ex-Air Force engineer who's been working on the geodetic data that I talk about at the UN, That he's been able to synchronize the location of Cydonia with this ancient grid he has discovered of the sites from Stonehenge to Giza, the Indian mountains, to Mexico City, to Takao, to Guatemala, all over the world.
These ancient monuments on Earth sync up to this ancient Cydonia grid for Mars.
Yes.
And he has published a series of newsletters and updates to his thesis and his tome, which all elegantly proves this.
All right.
That's why you thought we'd land at Cydonia, but we didn't.
We're at 19.5.
Okay.
So, if we then go back to this ancient system, which makes Cydonia the prime meridian, not Meridiani Sinus?
Yes.
It turns out that the Pathfinder landing site is within error bars.
We're dealing within about a degree or so of error here.
22.5 west of Cydonia and 22.5 west of the Prime Meridian divided into 19.5 degrees north of the equator is E divided by Pi.
It's our most fundamental constant of the hyperdimensional physics.
Now, we landed here.
Well, you've always said 19.5 is the hyper-dimensional point.
Well, that's the point on the planet.
And I always thought when they said they were going to land at 19.5, you would have said, Aha!
You see?
But you didn't.
Well, I didn't because I didn't have a physics reason.
I was looking at it symbolically.
I thought maybe they were going for the symbolism of the 19.5.
But now that we found what we found, which we will definitely get to in the rest of this evening's program, It now is clear why this site was selected, and it's also becoming a bit clearer as to who might have quietly and surreptitiously pushed inside NASA the selection of this site.
All right.
Well, either Marv or Ken, gentlemen, regarding the location that we are now presently said to be on Mars, is there anything that either one of you have seen, and I know we'll go into detail, That does not look like rocks.
I mean, that suggests there is any unnatural formation or something that shouldn't be there.
This is Marv.
I was reviewing the images again tonight, and there's one of the more recent panoramics.
It's number 81205 in NASA's numbering system on the website.
And if you go to the far right of that image, You see some things on the horizon that look extremely interesting.
Vertical sides to formations.
And unfortunately, you know, you would just love to go there and get a closer look.
But unfortunately, NASA says that the maximum range of the rover is 500 meters.
You know, which is less than the half a mile that Richard mentioned earlier, and not very far.
Not far enough to go investigate that interesting looking object.
Would they have had enough time in this signal loss period To have gone to investigate this sort of thing?
No.
What they would have to do is to basically use that time with the imp camera on the lander to pick those locations where there is interesting stuff where they're going to send the rover without telling us or with having these weird downtime communications so that we will not expect to get any data during those periods of time.
In the model that there is a dual mission going on now.
Let me get back to why this site is critical.
All right.
Because it seems to be that what we've landed in is the middle of an ancient city, another counterpart to Cydonia.
I don't see a city.
Well, because it's underneath.
It's buried under the floodplain of all the detritus and all the rubble and all the junk that flowed down from the southern highlands when all hell broke loose.
And these floods, 10,000 times the volume of the water of the Amazon in flood flowed down across this plain.
Now, what was left sticking up out of this flood, out of this boulder field, this detritus, this sand and mud and gravel and all kinds of other junk that basically settled in this vast river valley, sticking up a half a mile away, apparently are the tips of two Cydonia-type arcology pyramids.
One of them is still closed, so we're seeing the exterior facing.
That's the left one.
You're talking about what they're calling the Twin Peaks, right?
Twin Peaks.
And the right one, the one that Dr. Smith released this super-resolution image briefly on Tuesday before NASA withdrew it.
Yes, it is important the audience understand there was a super-resolution photograph released.
Of the right-hand North Twin Peaks.
And NASA Pulled it off.
Pulled it off.
It's disappeared.
Except that we have it.
We have it, and there are lots and lots of people listening tonight, Art, and what I need is for them to fax me all those people who downloaded and preserved on disk or their hard drive the copy of this image.
We need to prove, first of all, that this is a real image.
This is a real NASA image in the database that NASA has now suddenly withdrawn.
And to do that, we simply need them to fax either you or me, and we have a new fax number for Enterprise here in New Mexico.
Give it out now.
Which is 505-771-0820.
505-771-0820.
Better say it again.
505-771-0820.
0820.
All right.
Richard, I would think at this time those with computers ought to be headed toward my website and then yours to take a look.
And we will be back with all three of these gentlemen as we continue to discuss what's going on on Mars.
I'm Art Bell, and this is CBC.
The talk station, AM 1500 KSTP.
Whatever you Call our bill
West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
1-800-825-5033.
This is the CBC Radio Network.
That's who we are.
And I've got several guests right now.
East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033. 1-800-825-5033. This is the CBC Radio Network.
That's who we are. And I've got several guests right now.
Richard C. Hoagland with Marv Zarnik and Ken Johnston, both NASA veterans.
Richard C. Hoagland is telling us that at the present location, or near the present location, where Pathfinder is
and Rover, there is a city buried beneath that entire area, that floodplain
area. And that, I believe, is what NASA is really investigating.
I think that's exactly what he's telling us.
If I'm wrong, we'll find out in a moment.
All right.
I am receiving many, many faxes from the Phoenix area.
Richard Hoagland suggested there would be an occurrence between the 20th and the 26th that would be connected to Phoenix or have to do with Phoenix.
And Richard, all the people want to know exactly what it is you think occurred.
Well, I didn't say it was going to be in Phoenix.
I said it was going to be part of this whole connection which links the Moon, Phoenix, Giza, and Mars.
Okay.
And what it appears to have been is the set of stunning photographs which are on the web of the tip of a buried pyramid with the roof all torn off so we can see the guts inside.
That's what we're talking about.
Part of an ancient complex that was specifically sited by whoever built this stuff on Mars at 19.5 North And 22.5 west of Cydonia.
All right.
Ancient Prime Meridian.
All right.
All I see are rocks and hills, Richard.
I don't see a city.
So how do you get to the city part?
We've got Marv Zarnik and Ken Johnston with us.
Gentlemen, Richard is suggesting there is at least a part or a portion of a pyramid That can be seen or discerned by these high-resolution photographs.
Your comments, please.
Okay, this is Ken.
Before we jump in, we're going to test that real good, but there's something you brought up a little bit earlier, Art, having to do with the range of the rover.
Yes.
And I'd like to just clear up one thing on that.
As you recall, when the Pathfinder landed on Mars, they were amazed that with that little approximate 4-inch antenna, they actually tracked it all the way down to the Martian surface.
You bet.
And here we're talking, we have cell phones that operate on one quarter of a watt, and we get miles of range out of this.
Yeah, this is a very reasonable question, and let me ask, is it not true, does anybody know what frequency they're operating on?
I don't have that, I'm sure it should be available though.
VHF, UHF, somewhere in that range probably.
It's in the UHF and it's on the website.
Alright, alright.
So in other words, we're dealing with a frequency that is line of sight.
That's correct.
And the other thing is that we're in a very low noise environment.
Yeah, exactly.
We're on a planet where you don't have thunderstorms, you don't have lightning, you don't have other electronic interference going on.
Agreed.
It just appears pristine.
It can be as such as on the moon when we communicated with the astronauts on the surface.
And then with the lunar rovers, we got several kilometers away from the LM.
We had all kinds of sophisticated communication, but it was line of sight.
So you're saying that the claimed communication range and operational range is not true.
It's a lie.
Well, let's say that what's published is what is the minimum acceptable.
And we always have, plus or minus, when you engineer something, you always go, you design in greater capability, but you publish only what you consider your minimally accepted.
All right, well, is it not possible, though, that they would be concerned they would get a half mile away and get into a dip or behind a rock and lose it?
Is that why they may have designed it this way?
Well, the computer, and if you carefully read the specs on the mission, the little rover, the little sojourner, Which of course is a special sacred title in Masonic tradition, the principal sojourner.
Has its onboard AI program, where when it loses communication with the lander, it then will retrace its steps.
It will literally back up until it reestablishes communication.
And then it will take an alternative path, and if it loses it there, It'll back up and it'll keep doing that like an insect.
Alright, so in other words, that scenario doesn't wash.
Does not wash.
Alright.
And, I mean, look, just think of this from a larger perspective.
We've spent $150 million to send this spacecraft in two parts.
A stationary base station and a device on wheels with cameras and that x-ray gadget.
And we built it so that it almost can't function Beyond a tablecloth length from the lander.
Right.
And it's going to drop dead because it's batteries can't be recharged in a week.
Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
In other words, Marvin is of the opinion that I'm of the opinion that, in fact, we're being fed a bunch of stories here.
And in fact, in the dual mission scenario, the reason that the public is being told it can't do this and can't do that and can't do anything else is to give them the cover when it goes and does all these neat things.
And test this extraordinary new data.
They're not going to be able to tell us, because they don't have to tell us.
They claim they can't tell us.
Alright, so you are basically claiming there is beneath the surface, the rocky red surface we see, virtually a city.
And that the hills, or the Twin Peaks, at least one of them, conceals a pyramid.
If you look at our website and you look at the composite photographs taken from orbit, the Viking shots that were used to make the maps that are part of the mission profile that NASA itself put out, they've now identified from the landing site, you'll see these blue lines radiating in various directions, locating features on the horizon around the lander with the IMP camera.
There is directly to the north something called the knob, all right, to the south East, I'm sorry, southwest, just about 10 degrees to the south of west, there are the Twin Peaks.
As you go around the horizon, there are various features that can be identified.
We know exactly now, within a few meters, of where we've landed this thing.
Half a mile away is this northern Twin Peak.
Well, if you look at the orbital photographs, which have been put together, composited, using this super resolution technology, which I'll describe in a few minutes, They are able to get much better resolution between 8 and 10 times the resolution of the raw data.
That means that if the raw data was like 40 meter resolution from Viking, we can get down to 4 meter or maybe 6 meter resolution.
Alright.
Can you imagine what we can do with this technology at Cydonia if we can apply it to the existing data?
Sure.
We have several frames of Cydonia.
We could get much better detail if we apply this technology.
That's the kind of subset of this morning's conversation.
Yeah, it is.
I mean, that's an if-if-if.
We're not there, so we can't do it.
But what we know that they have done, because they have said this on the website, particularly the Ames Group, the NASA Ames Group, which is linked to the Mars Pathfinder site, and by Monday, Keith will have our own data complement fully fleshed out, and we'll have links to the Ames site through Enterprise.
There's this very interesting mathematical group called the Thessalian Group and they have been pioneering in this stunning new technology which is to improve the resolution of digital data by a factor between 8 and 10.
Alright.
They've applied that to these orbital photographs taken by Vikings.
Alright, Richard.
We can see the platforms of these two pyramids and their orientation are, and that's where the numbers come in, because they're oriented due north-south.
If you draw a line between the two peaks, It's due north-south.
Their platforms are tilted by 30 degrees off that north-south line.
You can see the platforms in the orbital view.
That line of sight, if you follow a great circle route through that line, it goes to the North Knob, which is the next pyramid that's partially buried north of the lander by one and a half miles.
And then if you follow that great circle route around the planet over the horizon to the northeast, guess where you wind up?
Where?
Cydonia.
These pyramids are lined up with Cydonia, 22 and a half degrees west of the Cydonia meridian.
You gentlemen, do you gentlemen agree with that?
We have a similar alignment here on some of these ancient sites on Earth.
That's right.
Do you agree, though, with his assessment with regard to Mars?
Well, I just heard it for the first time, Art, and I haven't run the numbers, but... Ron Nixon and I developed this this afternoon, so...
This is a moving story.
I mean, we're literally doing preliminary data analysis and discussion as we are finding some of this stuff.
Obviously, we will cooperate this with better numbers and more accurate measurements, but what we're looking at now is the fact that we're not just looking at random hills, and Ron will address this in great detail, but we're looking at what appears to be what's sticking up out of this floodplain, which was built before the floods, which raises the question, how old are the floods art?
NASA claims this floodplain is half a billion years old.
I had heard three and a half billion.
Well, these are all just numbers that are thrown up in the air because we don't have any ground truth.
NASA's way of dating planetary surfaces is by doing something called comparative crater counts.
And you basically look at the number of holes in the ground and you have an estimate for how many things hit per square mile per year.
Yes.
And then you extrapolate a time based on those set of curves.
That's all estimated, based on the lunar missions and an assumption, several major assumptions, that the solar system had one big, splashy impact of debris when it was forming, and it's been tailing off ever since.
If Tom Van Flandern is right, if Mars was once a satellite of the world that used to be in the asteroid belt, which blew up, all the shrapnel would have peppered Mars, It would have splashed away its atmosphere.
It would have caused these floods because of the thermal and the temperature and the incredible climatic catastrophe that Mars would have undergone.
It would have left all the holes that NASA guys are counting.
And we could compress millions or billions of years of history into a few million years in terms of how they're approaching their own data.
All right.
We have three people here, yourself, Richard, Marv Zarnik, and Ken Johnston.
And while we have them, Gentlemen, do either one of you have any explanation for how a planet, which once was a water world, could now be barren and dry?
Do we have any conventional explanation that tells us where the water went?
Well, for me, that's really outside of my area of expertise, so I'm not even going to address it.
There are some people that have come up with some very good theories on that.
You're going to have to stay close to the phone.
All right.
Anybody else?
I mean, does anybody know where the water could have gone?
Well, that's one of the major reasons for both Pathfinder, we were told, as well as the Global Surveyor program, which is getting to Mars and goes in in September.
That is supposed to find, as a follow on to the missing Mars Observer, where the global inventory of water on Mars went.
And unless you evoke a catastrophic model, Meaning something extraordinary happened and blew the atmosphere and the water into space, you're never going to solve it.
And as part of that incredible cataclysm, waters gushed down from the poles, from the incredible rain, from the, you know, rapidly falling temperatures that the planet would have undergone at that moment of cataclysm, and it buried under debris what was sitting at 19-5, 22-5 west of Cydonia, And somebody in NASA, this is my point, somebody in NASA suspected this or knew this and intended for this spacecraft to land and explore this and they dropped this little guy within half a mile of one of the only things sticking up
for hundreds of miles around this lander.
All right.
On the website, you've got the NASA Ames super resolution close-up of the right twin peak.
Now, clearly, it would seem that something of a pyramid-type shape, not consistent with the rest of the terrain or rock around it, whatever is up there, looks like the top of a possible pyramid sticking up.
I can see that myself.
Ken, is that what you're seeing?
The one on the left actually looks like it has the structure that looks like it is the top of a pyramid area.
It does, yes.
And the other one would certainly have been worn down or bobbed off.
When we get Ron up, which we'll have after the next break, alright, who is a geologist who has extensive, you know, sighting background.
Sure.
Ron and I have been developing a tentative geological model to explain what we're seeing and to make predictions But the core of this art, and this is what the audience has to desperately understand tonight, it is within our power, within their power, to find out.
If these gentlemen, if Marvin and Ken are correct, and the technology is being grossly underestimated, this little rover, at the behest of the American people, can literally solve this problem in the next few days.
We don't have to wait, we don't have to wonder, we don't have to argue, we don't have to speculate, We can know, we can test this hypothesis on real live television provided the American people give a damn and let Dan Golden and everyone else know what they want to know about... Alright, fine.
Let's take this a piece at a time.
We have Marv and Ken only for a few more moments.
What important point did you want to draw from these two experts, Richard, before we move forward?
Well, we've discussed the anomalies in the current NASA mission and the fact that there's only one or two
explanations.
Either we have gone brain dead at NASA at all levels, or there's something weird and funny going on in terms of
policy and a dual agenda where we're being given weird data and
strange explanations, which is covering something going on in the background that
we are not privy to.
All right, so put simply then, the 10-minute miss you gentlemen agree is mostly impossible.
I certainly do.
Me too.
Okay, the both of you agree on that.
Is there anything else either one of you want to say that adds to any of this, any other suspicions you have or observations you want to make?
Well, I find it interesting that all the questions and answers on NASA's website lead you to believe that the capability of both the lander and the rover are minimal.
And if you see something interesting on the horizon, it can't go look at it.
You're saying that is just untrue and that the capability... Does anybody know how much power These transmitters are using?
Yes, those numbers are provided in the question and answer section on the website.
I'm impressed with the quality of the questions that have been asked of NASA by the public.
They've really asked the correct questions.
But in every case, the answer that they've gotten has been One that leads you to believe that the capability of the mission is minimal.
Well, you know, I read a news article that suggested the transceiver that's being used on this little rover, and I guess on the other end, and I know this is a laughable item, is a converted RadioShack hand-held transceiver.
I'm not kidding.
Anybody else heard that?
I haven't.
Well, William Brown, Defense Secretary under the first part of the Carter administration, not Carter, Clinton, actually changed Pentagon procurement policy, and the Pentagon is now buying off-the-shelf electronics, including from Tandy and Radio Shack, because it's up to basically military specs.
There has been a stunning technological learning curve in this country, forced by competition, Foreign and domestic so that when you buy Radio Shack stuff now, there's no reason why you can't send it to space.
That's why we were discussing private options to go to the moon.
I laughingly talked about our Radio Shack mission.
Yeah.
Looks like NASA's actually gone and done it.
All right.
Well, actually, actually, I really did read that story.
But even if that is the case, the suggestion here is that the rover has a far greater capability in movement than they are telling us it has.
Well, see, here's the key thing.
You don't have to get to the pyramid itself.
You don't have to get to the peak to get into interesting debris, because if this right-hand peak was torn apart and the covers smashed and the inner guts of the rooms and the debris and God knows what would be in there flowed down with the water, It basically is clustered as a debris apron that you can see in the Viking shots around the base.
And that debris apron extends almost to the lander site itself, if you look carefully at the photos.
Alright, we're going to have to move on.
And Ken Johnson and Marv Zarnik, I want to thank you both for being here and supplying that piece of the puzzle.
My pleasure.
Glad to do it.
Gentlemen, take care.
Richard C. Hoagland back in a moment, and we're going to try to get Ron Nix on the line.
And if you will look at the high-resolution photograph, I must admit it is rather suspicious.
What is that up there?
I'm Art Bell and this is CBZ.
Art Bell is taking calls on the wild card line.
That's 702-727-1295.
First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
That's 702-727-1295.
First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222.
Now, here again, Art Bell.
Once again, here I am, and I've got breaking news for you.
Richard C. Hoagland is with us.
I've got Mr. Nix on hold.
Richard, are you there?
I'm here.
All right.
I want you to listen very carefully.
We're going to Phoenix, Arizona, and my board operator at KFYI in Phoenix, who is John.
John, are you there?
Yes, I am, Art.
John, what are you getting reports of, please?
I've had several phone calls, and I've been out to see them myself.
They're in the northwest, slightly.
What do you mean, they?
I've had phone calls coming in from the people out there, both us and our sister FM station, of four strange lights being seen in cloud cover out here.
We've got slightly overcast skies.
They look like searchlights, but there's nothing coming up from the ground.
They're coming down from above.
They move in a circular pattern, they move to the center and join, and they spread apart and start moving in a circular pattern again.
I started getting calls about ten after the hour, and I came in at about twenty-five after the hour to run near bottom of the hour and haven't been able to get back out to see them, but they were still out there at twenty-five after.
Oh my!
Can you guess an altitude?
I would say cloud cover is probably around 7,000.
That's pretty high cloud cover here.
Now how do we know they're not coming from the ground?
They just look like the cloud would be real bright on the bottom.
These things look like they're being diffused through some more cloud.
They're just too foggy looking.
It looks like it's coming from the wrong side of the cloud.
Interesting.
Uh, very interesting, considering today is the 26th.
It is the 26th.
And, uh, this is not just anybody.
This is my board operator at KFYI in Phoenix, who saw them himself.
Is anyone getting video?
Uh, we haven't got a video camera here at the station.
I called our news, uh, department, and hopefully they are, but I don't know.
Oh my, oh my.
All right.
Describe one more time for me, John, the lights and how you saw them move or how they have been reported to move.
There are four lights.
Four of them.
They move in a circular pattern in a ring.
They go together in the center.
Are you saying that they're actually turning?
Yes.
Like a rim of a wheel turning.
Oh my.
Okay.
And they go to the center and join.
And they go apart again and begin rotating again.
Well, there's got to be people in Phoenix listening who've got video cameras, so I've got to say, guys, go outside and get some shots.
Yes.
They're just a slightly bit north of northwest.
All right.
What would you estimate they're over?
What physical position in the city?
From where I'm sitting here at the radio station, I would say they're probably over the Luke Air Force Base area.
Oh?
That's interesting.
It is.
Boy, oh boy, oh boy.
It's just as hard to tell.
It could be even as far out as Wickenburg.
You don't hear the desert.
It's hard to tell.
Very difficult to judge distances.
Well, I'm sure as we speak a good zillion people in Phoenix are running outside and hopefully some portion of them with video cameras.
Well, if you've got an attitude for the clouds, John...
You've got a bearing and an elevation for the lights, and simple trigonometry should give you what it's over.
If I haven't got an altitude on them, actually, this is a good guess.
I'll take it over to the service area and see what they've got.
John, why don't I do this?
Why don't I check back with you at the top of the hour, John?
That might give you time to check with your local tower and find out what the altitude of the cloud cover is.
Okay, well done.
All right, John, thank you so much.
Thank you.
Take care.
Wow.
Yes.
Interesting.
To say the least.
Holy moly.
If any of our people are listening, obviously they should take a portable radio and get a video camera and get some shots of this stuff.
It never fails, Richard.
It just never fails.
And I really want to thank John for coming forward with that report.
All right.
Now, we have a geologist coming on in the middle of this breaking news.
It is Ron Nix, former Parsons Engineering Geologist, EPA consultant, and Nuclear Regulatory Agency veteran, tasked with locating safe siding, geological safe siding, of accumulating nuclear wastes.
I wonder if he wants to put it out here near me.
We'll ask him about that.
Anyway, for tonight, He's going to provide an independent assessment of geological context of Pathfinder July 20th imagery, relating to the high-resolution views.
And those can be seen by going to my website, www.artbill.com, and then just going down to the guest section, click on Richard Hoagland's name.
It'll take you over, go to the bottom of the page, you'll see the high-resolution photographs we're about to talk about.
So let me now Bring on Ron Nix.
Ron?
Yes.
Welcome to the program.
Thank you.
Good morning, Ron.
In the middle of breaking news, apparently.
Yes, I heard that.
Hello, Richard.
Well, you're a geologist.
You have now about 24 hours to take a look at these things.
Am I whistling, Dixie, or am I not?
Let me briefly just explain something to the listeners.
Very quickly, how I came across these things.
Richard told me, he said, I've got some photos.
You need to look at these photos on the AIMS site, on the computer.
When I got an opportunity to look, I couldn't find him.
We've already heard about that.
So I said, Richard, what's going on?
There's nothing up there to look at.
There's no twin peaks.
He says, look.
He said, you're right.
He said, so he produced the stuff.
So the photos that I'm looking at are exactly the same photos that are on his website.
That's all I've had access to.
All right.
These photographs were, according to Richard, on the Mars Pathfinder site.
Yes.
And for what period of time were they there, Richard?
A few hours.
What I'd like to do is to take my portable phone and go downstairs and play you about a minute-thirty piece of tape from Dr. Peter Smith from the press conference, the official Pathfinder press conference on the 22nd, which was three days ago, on Tuesday, when they said they got communication back with Pathfinder and it downloaded its latest data.
And he described the super resolution views of the North Twin Peak And it's important that we get that on the record because there will be people claiming that I'm making this up.
That we have basically done something with these pictures or whatever.
You need to know that this was officially released by NASA and then in an unprecedented move art.
These photographs have disappeared from all archives.
No one can find them.
They don't exist officially, yet they do exist.
Which raises, in my mind, some pretty interesting political questions.
Well, there is one way we can prove they existed.
And that is, there will be many people out there who will have downloaded those photographs.
Absolutely.
And will be able to back us up on this.
In other words, we are not dealing here with a hoaxed photograph.
We are dealing with one that was really on their site.
And toward that end, I would guess that's the way we're going to have to do it is ask people to help us out.
And if you have a photograph identical to the one on the site right now that we are going to be discussing, please help us out and get it to us.
All right.
Let me play for you, Dr. Smith, as he described this critical photo.
OK?
All right.
Go right ahead.
OK.
Richard, we're not hearing that.
The northern hills of the Twin Peaks and you can see in this view an enhanced super resolution taken with something like 25 frames that have been shifted slightly one to the next so that we can actually get sub-pixel resolution.
Now this has been done by a very competent team from the Ames Research Center headed by Dr. Carol Stoker who is one of our participating scientists and several members of her team have been Very industrious in applying algorithms to help us get a little better resolution where we really want it.
And in this picture, you can see that the hill has almost a prowl, like a ship.
There's a bright rock here.
I assume it's a rock.
It looks like it'd be a rock to be in that position.
And one back here at the back end of the hill.
I say the back end because the water would have flown past this from left to right.
And here's some of the layering that we could just barely make out in the previous pictures.
Unfortunately, the rest of the layers are just below the frame.
We may have to go back and take another picture of them and use this wonderful technique to explore the details.
Okay.
All right, Richard, I want to break here for a moment.
Because of that breaking news, I never did get to my commercial break, so I've got to get that done.
We'll be right back to you and to Ron Nix, who is a geologist and is going to comment on what we do have.
This photograph, we do have.
Messengers from pocketbooks, wherever books are sold.
A story that will change your life.
All right, back now to Richard C. Hoagland and with us now, Ron Nix.
Gentlemen?
Yes.
Well, it's very important that we establish that this photograph is real.
It was put out by Dr. Smith, who is the principal investigator on the IMP imaging experiment on Pathfinder, and he described it and was very proud of it, you know, three days ago.
Where did you get this photograph?
The photograph was on the Mars Pathfinder website.
I heard you say that, but you personally pulled it from that site?
I downlinked it, downloaded it to hard drive and to floppy And its number is 81977, underline, full, F-U-L-L dot J-P-G.
That was its official catalog number, and we've listed it over and over again on our website at Enterprise, so people have no question this is an official NASA image.
All right, there is no other high-resolution photograph or any other photograph that shows what we see in this photograph, is that correct?
No.
Probably eight times worse resolution in the so-called presidential view.
Yes.
But what Ron is going to now talk about from his geological background is what I did was kind of like a double blind.
I called him up and I didn't even tell him what I wanted him to look at.
I simply said, look at these pictures and tell me what you see.
And Ron, what did you say to me?
Well, the very first thing I said, and what Richard's saying is exactly correct, he did say, you know, you might pay special attention to the photo called Twin Peaks.
Upon looking at that, it was only a few moments of looking at that photo, I called Richard back up and I said, well, I said, first of all, it's a somewhat anomalous name.
Anomalies is what I'm into.
Anomalies and discontinuities is what geologists look for.
Sure.
These peaks are not twin peaks.
That's kind of a cute name because they're not anything alike.
One of them is pointed.
One of them is flat on top.
Yes.
By the way, while we're at it, what is the likelihood of that?
If this was all a floodplain at one time?
I will talk about that.
All right.
That's an excellent question.
And it's a question that remains as such.
If you take a look at it, I called Richard and I said, Richard, on the right peak, or the flat-topped peak...
I said if you look right at the middle of that, face on, there is a pattern in there that is very clear.
It's almost oval and it looks like three terraces with a ramp up the middle.
It's an oval shape kind of that covers the side of the hill.
Yes.
It's a difference in coloration is all I can see on the photo.
This is on the color photo?
This is on the color photo, that's correct.
Part of the so-called presidential pan taken on the 20th.
And let me just back up a second.
I prefer to use those types of photos because those photos look like hills and rocks.
Yes.
If you take the very high-resolution, blown-up photos, you begin to look like Rorschach tests in various tones of gray and what have you.
And whether or not I agree with the linearities that I can see in those, I find it difficult to convince people with that type of photograph.
In other words, you prefer raw data?
Oh, yes.
I prefer to look at the... There are enough questions to be asked by just looking at that photo alone.
First of all, if we're in a catastrophic floodplain, we have to... Wait, wait, wait, Ron.
You mean the wide-angle color view?
Wide-angle color-filled view, yes.
Yes, all right.
I'm looking at it as we speak.
All right.
If you're in a catastrophic flood plain, or a flood plain as huge as this one appears to be, first of all, it's kind of anomalous that you have two little bumps sticking up.
That's not totally impossible, from the natural standpoint.
But I'm not sure exactly how that would occur.
We'll have to make some assumptions.
Assumptions are always up for debate.
I recognize that.
But I would assume that they very likely are the same material, if you will.
If they're natural materials, they're probably the same material.
If that is the case, then why is it that one is so pointed and one is so flat if they've experienced the same catastrophe and they are so close together?
That's kind of hard to explain.
All right.
I'm not a geologist.
You are.
But suppose one was very much larger than the other prior to the flood.
Would that explain it?
Of course.
It could be.
I've got another explanation.
Perhaps the one that's flatter or appears to have more subdued edges, if you will, even though on closer inspection it really doesn't, but at first glance it looks like it may have more subdued edges.
It's more like a mesa as opposed to a peak.
Yes.
You might say as a geologist, well maybe that one's older.
Maybe that one has been around longer than the other one and therefore would have more subdued edges.
On closer inspection, if that's the case, then why is it that the one that would be older would retain more detail
of what appears to be horizontal and vertical structure on the face that you see?
And again, it's just a coloration pattern.
My first words to Richard were, Richard, this feature on the right, this peak on the right, looks like a stepped
pyramid to me.
It looks not... the words I used were the Pyramid of the Sun. It looks like a Mexican pyramid.
It really does.
And I said, the one on the left, if you really look at it carefully, there's some fascinating things to see because,
again, I look for anomalies and discontinuities.
Come down the slope at the left side of the left peak, and you'll see a break in slope.
Now, that break in slope is very typical of the sorts of things you have in air terrains with alluvial fans.
I'm very familiar with those.
Spent almost a decade in the Las Vegas Valley around Freshman Sunrise, the Bird Spring Range, And all the rest of them, mapping details in alluvial fans.
Gosh, who do we know that lives there?
Yes, well, anyhow, if you take a look at that break in slope, continue on down at the angle of the hill.
Don't follow the break in slope.
You can see that the line continues straight on down below what is the horizon there.
Yes.
Now, that portion that makes up the horizon, right at that break in slope, Kind of remember that.
Go take a look now at the map view of the lander site.
Alright.
If you look at the map view, you will notice some dark coloration kind of around, let's look at the Twin Peaks area, around to the left and around underneath the Twin Peaks and then kind of off into the upper right.
Sort of a slightly darker streak in that photo.
Yes.
You see that?
I do.
Then if you consider, well, now that probably is debris, if you will, splashed up onto there from this catastrophic flood.
You can then go back and say, oh, well, I can see now in the... Go back up to the color photo and look at the left edge.
You can see how, yes, it looks like this stuff is plastered up against what would be like the back side of a pyramid, more like a Giza pyramid.
The upstream side.
The upstream side, yes.
It's more pointed, very much like a Giza pyramid would be.
And that angle is just as straight as it can be, and it continues on down below the horizon.
You are correct.
It looks exactly... I can see it now.
That's right.
As does the one on the right side of the right pyramid.
It continues below the horizon also.
Oh my, I do see it.
Now let's talk about how interesting it is, and actually what I'm about to say only goes to verify what is already known, I believe, that it has undergone some catastrophic flooding.
Gold miners are known for years, when you want to look for nuggets, you look under the downstream side or near the downstream side of a boulder because there's an erosive force there that tends to pluck the material out of there.
Yes, sir.
The upstream side tends to catch the sedimentation, the downstream side erodes out and materials are plucked out and that's where the heavy gold stays.
If this water, whatever, if this flood came from the left to the right, as you're looking at that color photo.
Right.
It would have tended to plaster on the left side of the left peak and it would have continued on to the right peak.
And the right side of the right peak, though, is very steep.
And it doesn't appear to be plastered up.
No, it does not.
Well, that's the downstream side that has been plucked, if you will.
A term is this plucking that occurs.
Ron, you really need to get into this plucking business because this is the key to unraveling a whole bunch of stuff.
Like any science, if you understand the glossary, you know the science.
But it's just a term for what occurs.
It happens with glaciers when they move.
It happens in streams where you get a downstream side of something tends to be plucked out.
There's actually a lower pressure is what's caused in there.
You get the compressional force of the stuff, the fluid hitting it.
And around behind, on the downstream side, you have a lower pressure and it tends to just pluck and pull the pieces apart.
So it clears it out.
It doesn't deposit there.
Ron, it can be several tons of pressure per square foot.
Extraordinary rending, ripping, vacuum suction forces on the downstream side.
I don't know the exact answer to that, but here's what I suspect.
I suspect that those two features are close enough together that when this massive flood of debris and everything else hit this thing, You had some splash back when it hit the second one, alright?
And it just splashed back onto the left pyramid from the right pyramid.
See what I'm saying?
Yes.
Now, if you follow that and say, well, okay, maybe that's a possibility.
Let's look at the right side of the left peak.
Right?
Correct.
If you come down, there is indeed a break in slope there.
Yes, there is.
And you will notice that that break in slope, if you look, it almost goes up just a little
bit before it flattens out, kind of like it was a little platform.
I agree.
Very much like what you have if it came down, smashed into the left side of the left peak,
went and smashed into the left side of the right peak, splashed back over and deposited
a bunch of debris, and it just kept on going.
You had a swirling mass, if you will, in the saddle area there, that just left all that stuff deposited when it finally passed by and plucked the downstream side of the right one.
Alright, gentlemen, that's where we're going to have to hold it for a moment.
I've got some investigation to do, so, fascinating stuff, and he's absolutely right if you're able to follow this in the photographs.
Alright, Ron Nix, who is a geologist, And Richard C. Hoagland are my guests.
We're gonna check on Phoenix, and if you're in Phoenix, you better be checking on Phoenix.
What's going on?
We'll try and give you an update.
I'm Art Bell from the high desert.
This is CBC.
The talk station AM 1500 KSTP.
According to a...
Live on AM 1500 KSTP.
If you're east of the Rockies, the toll-free number is 800-825-5033.
If you've never called Art before, you may use the first-time caller line at area code 702-727-1222.
to the Rockies, the toll-free number is 800-825-5033. If you've never called ART before, you may
use the first-time caller line at area code 702-727-1222.
And the wildcard line is area code 702-727-1222.
When you get through, let it ring and ART will answer your call in order on the air.
This is the CDC Radio Network.
Grown-O-Lard Good morning, everybody.
Tracking what's going on in Phoenix right now.
Rockies at 1-800-618-8255. 1-800-618-8255. East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033. 1-800-825-5033.
This is the CBC Radio Network.
That's exactly what it is. Good morning, everybody. Tracking what's going on in Phoenix right now.
And before I go to a commercial break, let me make note that I've got a number of reports already.
Some suggesting that these are some sort of searchlights for a grand opening of a place called Nightlife at 59th
Avenue and Indian School in Phoenix.
So we want to be clear.
However, once again, here is John, who is my board operator at KFYI in Phoenix.
John?
Yes, sir.
I take it your board there is lighting up with calls.
Our board is swamped.
I can't even punch them off fast enough and there's a lot of people out there listening to you at night here.
Well, at least we know they're listening, huh?
Yeah.
All right, what can you tell us?
Apparently, the majority of your calls are suggesting these are searchlights.
Yes, I'm getting quite a few calls, 08, 10, somewhere that 1, saying they're searchlights.
Some of the people are saying the searchlights are looking in the wrong part of the valley.
But I do have some people out there on the west side that claim there is that club opening.
But then I also have a couple, one individual I happen to know personally, who sees what
I saw and says they're definitely not and is supposedly videotaping it.
Good, good, good.
Alright, I've got one here that says, I thought they were searchlights until we just heard John, and we did not notice any beams going up from the ground either.
They did appear to be above the clouds, not below.
Normally, when there's searchlights, you can see the beam from the ground, but there is no beam.
Yes.
That's what I'm getting, and I take it that's some of what you're getting.
Yes, it is, and the air here in Phoenix is far from being clean, so you'd think we'd see the beam.
In other words, you've got enough particulate matter in the air that the beam should be visible.
Yes.
All right, John, you were not able to get a cloud cover altitude for us.
I can't even get a phone line out here.
You can't get a phone line out?
All right, everybody, stop calling John.
Not that that's going to do any good, John, but I said it.
I appreciate it.
All right, my friend, thank you.
Thank you.
Take care.
The videotapes, no doubt, that are being taken, We'll eventually tell the tale, but there are some very interesting things going on, obviously, at the moment in Phoenix, and with enough observers, and we certainly have those, we should be able to track down whether we've got a club opening or a craft flying.
All right, back now to Richard C. Hoagland in the mountains near Albuquerque.
Richard?
I'm looking towards Phoenix.
I can't see anything.
I'm almost high enough, though.
By the way, Ramona sounds really good.
I beg your pardon?
Is that Ramona on that After Dark commercial?
No.
It isn't?
No.
God, it could be your sister.
No, well, yeah, very similar voice.
That's a young lady named Lisa at the network.
Oh my gosh, well.
He has an unknown twin.
Once again, Ron Nix with us.
Ron, welcome back.
Thank you.
All right, let me give a breaking news update here.
The Arkbill audience has come through again.
A guy named Bob Baumann, who is in Oregon, just faxed me.
He runs a computer company.
He says the picture in question is still on the mirror site.
NASA, as you know, set up a whole bunch of mirror sites for Pathfinder.
On the Sun Microsystems mirror site.
Oh my.
Copy this down.
As you know from Scotty Rowland.
Richard, stop.
We better do this fast because it's going on the air and if it's not supposed to be there, they'll take it down.
Okay.
HTTP colon forward slash forward slash www.sun.com forward slash Mars forward slash OPS forward slash 81977 Underline full.jpg.
There it is.
So, uh, we are referring here to the high-resolution photograph that we have yet to discuss, um, that was at one point on the main site.
Yep.
And is no longer there, but is, interestingly, on this mirror site.
Now you're looking, you're supposed to go in that website and look for the archived images for Sol 18 to 19.
Which is the Martian day, or called Sols.
I have just been handed another fax.
Dear Richard, picture number 81977 underlined full.jpg.
...is available still at NASA MirrorSight run by AT&T.
Why, Richard, would such a high-resolution, interesting photograph be taken off the main site and placed, but still be on MirrorSight?
Thank God for the web.
So... Why would they take it off the main site, Richard?
This is very important.
Now, follow me carefully.
There are three groups, we think now, politically, inside NASA, at war with each other.
There's a small group, which I call the Enlighteners, with a Masonic background.
Yes.
There's the middle group, which is by far the larger group, which is basically honest, but doesn't know what's going on.
Then there's a tiny group on the right-hand side, which we'll call the Suppressors, who are trying to keep us from figuring out what's going on.
These two groups, the Enlighteners and the Suppressors, are at war with each other, and the honest guys are caught in the middle And some of them, I think, are just waking up that there's something weird going on with this mission, if not a lot of stuff, at NASA.
All right, look, that means that we have confirmed the validity of the high-resolution image.
Yep.
Now, there's a second site at AT&T.
Let me give you that one.
http://nasa.att.net.ops.sol18-19.html Alright, let's now turn to Ron.
Ron, if we have confirmed the validity of these high-resolution photographs, then I think we can now begin talking about them as though they are the real thing, and not somebody's phud photos.
It seems to me we've got enough evidence.
So, Ron, what do you see in these high-res photos?
Well, in a nutshell, what we just finished in the last segment was the fact that, yes, there is clearly evidence of the gas-dropping flooding that took place.
And in those two, well, in the high-resolution photos, I concentrated on the large color photo.
To me, the most interesting thing about the high-resolution photo was it didn't take a picture of the area that I'd like to look at.
What they did was they They took the very top of the right-hand peak.
Yes.
And about a third of it is rock, and about two-thirds of it is atmosphere.
Now why they would apply a technique like they've got that is obviously highly sophisticated and worthwhile to mostly the atmosphere and not to the rock, when they could have lowered that frame just a little bit and picked up those features where you can see the color changes in the linearity, vertical and horizontal on that peak.
Ron, let me stop you there.
Yes.
Peter Smith, in the clip I played at the press conference, was bragging about this picture.
Yeah.
And bragging that he would be able to geologically now figure out the high water mark, the flows, the deposition of rocks and all that.
Now, you know and I know, Ron, that in Geology 101, geology is based on stratigraphy.
And stratigraphy gives you a time sequence.
The oldest stuff is on the bottom and the youngest stuff is usually on top.
Alright?
So why would you image the top of the hill And not the bottom of the hill to get the dating from the bottom up.
It makes no sense at all.
From a stratigraphic standpoint, that's correct.
Out of deference to NASA, I can see a reason for looking at the edge.
After all, remember what I started out with?
We look for discontinuities and anomalies, and that's certainly a discontinuity between atmosphere and
rock.
Right.
And the reason you look at such a huge discontinuity is because along those edges is where you begin to
understand the nature of the materials on both sides of that edge, if
you will.
But if you move the frames down...
Exactly.
It didn't take all that sky, which is noise.
That's exactly right.
They could have very well gotten the edge, as well as those features that can be seen on the face of that hill, by simply moving that same size frame down a little bit.
But for whatever reason, they chose not to.
And it was interesting in the clip that you played, Richard, he even joked about that.
Yeah.
I mean, he made an offhand comment about, well, you know, I guess maybe next time we'll admit to... Well, he pointed out two very interesting weirdnesses and made jokes.
One was when he referred to the brilliant rock on the upper left.
Yes, yes.
Which he said, if it is a rock, then, like, well, what else can it be?
My strong suspicion, I'm going to lay it right out here, is that Peter Smith knows exactly what's going on, and he's playing a head game.
And what he's doing is dangling so that we rise to the bait, we make a big fuss about this, we do our analysis, we bring people like Ron on who say this lineation is not natural, it's not faulting, it's not cross-bedding, it's none of the standard geology, and then we impel millions of people to demand of this space agency that they send Sojourner over there to get better ground truth, and therefore they can say when they find what we're claiming is there, Oh, we didn't know it was there!
The American people demanded we do it, and we did it, and look what happened!
Alright, um... Ron, let us discuss what we can see.
Alright?
We can complain that they didn't show, uh... Yeah, whatever.
But, let's talk about what is here.
What the hell is that, in the top photograph, uh, to the left, that appears to be... a discontinuity of your favor, huh?
Uh, a white...
I wish I could have it right in front of me.
something or another sticking way up where it ought not to be. What the hell is that?
I wish I could have it right in front of me. I'm not configured so I can talk on the phone
and look at the computer at the same time, Art. But Richard, is that possibly what we
conjectured might be a type of a capstone type...
Yeah, exactly.
That's a fragment of the covering.
It looks like what would be a capstone, yes.
In the model, gentlemen, these are not Egyptian pyramids, by the way.
No.
They are what Apollo Solari called Arcologies, which has been our model for Cydonia.
You have basically a mile cube Domed in, in a pyramid shape, with a whole bunch of rooms, and shopping centers, and malls, and plazas, and streets, and all kinds of stuff inside.
A huge, super, super, super condominium.
And it's got a covering, a sheathing, and it's pyramidal shape.
It's designed to keep the light in, and the air in, and the vacuum, or the lower atmosphere outside out.
Okay.
When the flood came past these two pyramids, if that's what they are, The exposed one, the one on the far downstream position, suffered the maximum vacuum-sucking, wrenching forces, tons per square foot, which apparently ripped off this fragile covering, relatively fragile, and deposited it all over this valley as part of the debris flow.
And the upstream side, getting the brunt of the water, it was compressed onto the covering, so it stayed there, and you can actually see around the edges the dark rim.
You can measure the thickness, and if you zoom in, Art, on the close-ups, you can see that that dark rim is serrated.
It goes up and down, almost like Venetian blinds, in correspondence to the dark squares underneath it.
It's an astonishing correlation of geometry and careful, highly regular geometry.
Alright, may I ask a couple of questions?
Anything.
Number one, uh, we know the distances involved.
Yep.
Therefore, we should be able to calculate, um, how big these, um, hills are.
Yep.
And the size of this apparent capstone.
What, I mean, what are we talking about here?
Can you tell me?
Well, we're talking house size, room size features.
We're talking well within the dimensions of human experience, alright?
A building.
Except on a much bigger scale, because you make a lot of them.
I mean, New York City is bigger than one building.
It's made up of lots and lots of little buildings, but the buildings have a certain scale.
Alright, Ron, this is quite a leap to make, to suggest that we are seeing The artifacts of a city, or of pyramids, or capstones.
Alright, yeah, I don't claim to see a city, but what I do see, and to me it's the whole point, I see something that is difficult for me to explain with only natural phenomena.
And that doesn't mean that it can't be explained.
I'm saying I can't explain it.
This was something that I also explained at the press conference in Washington.
If this is natural, It is important that we understand it, because I don't see terrestrial equivalence of that natural phenomenon.
And I need to know that.
You know, that's... I'm a geologist.
I should understand that.
Now, the reason might be that they just haven't been found, or they've been found and misinterpreted.
That could be happened, or that could be the case.
Or it simply doesn't exist in a terrestrial environment.
The other thing is, if it's artificial, well, that's fine too.
We need to know that.
We need to take advantage of what we've got up there right now.
That little snowjourner and the Pathfinder landed very near, if you'll look again on the map, the edge of that darker area that looks to be like a debris field.
Let me stop you there.
Yes.
Remember Ballard's exploration of the Titanic?
Remember how the Titanic, when it went down, it split into two?
Right.
And there's this vast debris field between the two sections, Art.
We're talking the equivalent on Mars of a debris field of the stuff from inside the right-hand peak, i.e., maybe pyramid, strewn out by the water, wrenched and mangled and torn, and everything from computers to lawn furniture to paintings to God knows what could be in there, and this little rover could wander up to the debris within a few hundred feet of this lander, It could then put its little x-ray gadget on this debris and give us the first reading of extraterrestrial manufactured material.
Well, in fact, if you ask Art, what can we see?
I wish I had the picture in front of me, but I don't.
But I believe you'll see it.
Look at the color panorama again.
And Richard, you might be able to guide him more directly to it.
There are rocks very close in to the near field on the left hand side.
Right.
They look on the left hand side just above the corner of the frame on the first picture.
Yes, sir.
The one where I have the black tight twin peaks.
Yes, sir.
There is a remarkable folded angular I agree with you.
looks nothing like any rock I or Ron have ever seen.
I agree with you.
They're rocks that look like they have baseball caps on.
You know, they look like they have visors or something.
Yes.
Well, excuse me, how do you get such angular rocks?
Well, one very obvious way is you get them with rapid deposition and not movement very
far from their source.
That's how that happens, because the edges get bumped off if they move along very far.
Which means what?
Which means that in one scenario is that you've got a structure there that was inundated by this catastrophic flood, was destroyed and ripped apart, the debris was spread around it and deposited right there in that field.
It didn't go very far, I mean a few thousand feet maybe.
And that's why we landed here.
If I'm right...
I'm right.
This mission has two components.
One we're getting to see, which is looking at rocks.
And all these rocks have weird names.
Have you noticed that everything out of this mission is a cartoon?
Oh, yes.
Is a fantasy?
Is a non-reality?
Scooby-Doo and Flubba-Dubba and Lamb Chop and Ghost and whatever?
Okay.
That, I think, is part of this tongue-in-cheek business that we're being dealt with by this team.
The real mission is the mission we're not getting to see, but we got a tip of the iceberg when Peter Smith deliberately put this bait out there, the top of the pyramid, withdrew it, but has left enough clues on the mirror site so we, the American people, if we demand to get the drowned truth that this mission can give us, but we politically have to really want to know our We can now make a stunning breakthrough in this 15-year agonizing saga.
Is there or ever was there life on Mars?
Well, look, I'll say this much.
I'm not a geologist and I'm not Richard Hoagland, but the one very interesting photograph, the high-resolution photograph that we now confirm really was theirs, was removed intentionally for some reason from their site.
Thank God for mirror sites that caught it.
But why would they remove such an interesting, particularly high-resolution photograph?
That is a very reasonable question, and it demands a reasonable answer.
Well, there's a correlation to the question.
If you go and look at the website for the Public Relations press release for that day... Yes?
Where Dr. Smith, I mean, you just heard his own voice... Yes?
Nothing he said was quoted about this picture, and this is a stunningly important picture.
It proves the technology.
This group at Ames has worked very hard to prove this technology.
It was asked early, early on in the mission, right after landing, one of the reporters who knew about the mission, Yeah.
when you're going to do the super resolution stuff.
Yeah.
For NASA not to tout it, to brag about it, to send it all over, but to withdraw it, to
hide it, is very, very telling.
Well, unless they just hate you so much, Richard, that they said, let's pull this photograph,
it'll drive Richard Hoagland absolutely out of his mind.
Ron, do you want to...
It isn't the devil that made them do it, it's Hoagland.
Yeah.
Do you want to hold on, Ron?
Alright, hand guide.
It really is a good question.
The one great high-resolution photograph that we've got up there, you can go take a look, and is on mirror sites, was pulled from the main site.
Why in the world would they do that?
And if you look carefully at it, it is rather anomalous.
I'm Art Bell and this is CBC.
I'm Art Bell and this is CBC.
Art Bell is taking calls on the wild card line.
That's 702-727-1295.
First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
That's 702-727-1295.
702-727-1222.
First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222.
Now, here again, Art Bell.
Once again, here I am, not being in Phoenix.
I cannot tell you whether it is a grand opening of a bar or something else.
What I can tell you is, at 7.56, the weather report from Phoenix Sky Harbor, that's 7.56 Universal, there was a layer of broken clouds at 16,000 feet above Phoenix, which is about 5.8 to 7.8 coverage of the sky.
There was a reported 10-mile visibility.
Thank you, Doug.
And we will continue to track.
Of course, Phoenix, as you might imagine on this night, is kind of on a hair trigger.
It being the 26th and the final day of predicted possible occurrence.
And again, If nothing untoward occurs, Richard will clarify again that he did not indicate that something would happen in Phoenix, only that something would happen that is connected with Phoenix, Giza, and of course what we are discussing on Mars.
And we'll get back to that in a moment.
All right, now what I want to do is summarize very quickly what we have covered so far.
Number one, We have covered why we landed where we have now landed which Richard Acknowledges on Mars at a very very interesting location Richard contends It is a dual mission one providing pictures.
We are seeing and the other Investigating an area of intense interest which Richard contends contains artificial artificial Artifacts, I suppose.
Well, potentially artificial.
All right.
I'm in the position that Ron is.
Look, we have a model here.
We have a scientific model.
We've done incredible amounts of work at Cydonia.
Okay, Richard, as you would say, I wasn't quite finished.
We go back to even an earlier conversation with the gentleman we had on, and there was a missed, a ten-minute missed period of time, missed communication, that these two gentlemen, both former NASA people, contend is absolutely impossible To have missed.
Let me stop you there.
Which resulted in a long period of supposed non-communication with Mars.
Correct, Richard?
But that's not the only time it occurred.
The last time it occurred was between the 19th and the 20th.
A key date, according to this model.
Yes.
It occurred seven days earlier, which no one remembers.
They blew it the first time.
And there are major questions as to why they would have problems then.
This has been a repeating problem that has nothing to do with computer resets and asynchronizations and all that.
We're talking basic stuff, like knowing when the Earth is going to rise from Mars.
When was this high-resolution photograph taken?
On the 19th, 20th timeframe.
As part of the presidential panorama.
Yes, uh-huh.
And remember, we have a president, Mr. Clinton.
Who has not had one word to say publicly about this mission.
Not so far.
Al Gore.
Now, he has said something very peculiar.
In an indirect way.
You have not seen Contact yet, right?
Um, I may see it tomorrow.
Oh my God.
Well, after you've seen it, we can talk about it.
Alright.
Because there's major stuff to talk about.
Alright.
Robert Zemeckis, who's the producer, as you know, has two clips of Quentin in the film.
Mr. Clinton is extremely upset and distraught and has threatened legal action against Zemeckis for using him in contact.
Yes, I've heard that, yes.
Which is bizarre!
And what Zemeckis then said in response was, you cannot believe the images you are seeing these days.
Which, in a metonymic way, could be Mr. Clinton's comment on larger issues.
My point is, But if we're looking at a political shell game here, if the mission we think we're seeing is in fact a facade, Scooby-Doo and Flubba-Dubba and all that notwithstanding, and the real mission is to look and investigate with this technology a potential second city site at Key Lap and Long on Mars, that apparently is connected geometrically to Cydonia, and has got incredible things within reach of this technology that can be tested
Then that's a pretty important thing for the American people to know, to pursue.
I should say.
Alright, Ron, you're back on again.
Yes.
I take it you're not quite willing to make the leap that Richard is with regard to the artificial aspect of this that he believes is probable.
Yeah, I don't have a natural explanation for that.
There's too many things that don't add up.
I mean, one mountain's got a point, the other one's flat.
They were subjected to the same catastrophe.
I'm looking at it strictly from a geologic point of view.
That's my expertise.
All right, well, I used the Ramona test on it here a minute ago.
I brought my wife in.
I said, look at this, and now look at the high-resolution picture.
And she said, wow, that's weird.
Is that like the caravan test?
Something like that, yes.
I have my own test.
But they do look like, okay?
I don't know that they are, but they do look like two separate pyramids.
They do.
A pyramid on the right and a smooth-faced, more smooth-faced, faceted one on the left.
They do, and I... I mean, that's it.
They do, and I would like the audience to... I'm sure they listened to your description.
Many of them will see it, and I would like reaction from the audience.
Now see, what's really important here, if we don't leave this evening with people understanding that this is not something that has to remain in the airy-fairy.
As Ron said so eloquently a few moments ago, we are here, boys and girls, ladies and gentlemen.
We are within striking distance of getting, finally, after 15 agonizing years, definitive answers, starting with looking at the anomalies right around the lander.
Over on the left in that color twin peaks frame, that angular thing that has a thickness, that looks like a piece of metal about an inch thick piece of metal bent by wrenching forces and dropped by the rapidly moving water Where we could take this little guy or gal you know Sojourner run it up to it turn it around put the x-ray gadget on it and if it came back iron or steel or titanium or whatever bingo!
We've got news!
Ron, are you able to see that?
Yeah, I've seen that and I agree.
I mean, I don't know what it is, but it's darn hard to explain naturally.
So go over and look at it and tell me and enlighten me.
That's all I'm asking.
That's what I'm interested in.
I don't know if they're pyramids, but they certainly look like them.
They look like buried the tips of nearly buried pyramids. They do. It's
what they look like. I agree with that.
And I just say what they look like. I don't know what they are, but there's more pieces of evidence
that tend to lead you to say, well gosh, you know, there are some interesting edges on these things
that you can see. And the whole, where we I think do have agreement with the conventionalism and
everything else about a catastrophic flood.
These features appear to have withstood that flood, and whatever remnants are left is what we're looking at, but they still retain some interesting characteristics and structure, which is just not real easy to explain.
If the flood's like that, why wouldn't it smooth everything over and fill it in and make it all nice and rounded?
Well, that's not the way it is.
If you look at those, that's not the way those two features are.
And that just needs to be answered.
Ron, for the audience, because what you're saying is so important, would you be willing to go over, please, Ron, some of your background?
I know you were with Parsons Engineering.
Right.
I'm a registered geologist in the state of California and a registered geologist and engineering geologist in Oregon.
I'm a member in good standing of the American Institute of Professional Geologists.
I've spent 30 years doing geologic and photo interpretation work, geologic
mapping, as well as the trench logging and borehole logging, all the things geologists do all over
the continental United States.
About 15 years in the southwest in arid environments. For about 10 years I worked with the high
level nuclear waste problem and trying to find a place to deeply bury that geologic
disposal.
Yeah.
And, yes, I hear you growling.
There's a place called NPS not too far from Pahrump.
And I was, at that time, I was working for Battelle Memorial Institute in Columbus, Ohio,
who had the prime contract from the Department of Energy to, at first, manage all three sites,
the salt dome sites, the sites in Texas and Utah, as well as up at the Basalt Waste Isolation
Pilot Plant in Washington.
So later on, Battelle took over only the salt sites and the others went elsewhere.
Just prior to that happening, I was the national manager for exploration of crystal rocks,
granitic types of rocks, hard rocks, for such a disposal site.
That became a separate program also.
And, of course, we all know what happened.
They all threw it up in the air and decided, well, we'll go to the Nevada Test Site.
And so that's where it's currently being Alright, well we can do a program on that, but I will defer to the amount of expertise you have.
There are a lot of people out there who are no doubt ready to say, Richard is crazy as a loon for questioning these formations.
And you with your expertise are saying, no, he's not crazy for questioning this.
No, he's not crazy for questioning those at all.
You have to build a geologic story from the basis up, from the bottom up, if you will.
And how do you explain those things the way they are?
And I'm saying that it's not real easy to find terrestrial analogues for what we're seeing there.
Yeah, we've got a couple of buried peaks, okay.
But when you go look at the peaks, they have very different characteristics, and yet they're very close to one another in a geologic sense.
They're what, a few thousand feet, something like that?
Yes.
So, I mean, they're very close together.
They've been subjected to the same, if they're the same age or similar ages, they've been subjected to the same catastrophe.
And yet, I went through that earlier, Right.
If the one on the right is more subdued because it maybe is older, well then how come it retains so much of the detail that you can see in it?
That doesn't make a lot of sense.
I mean, if it's older, that would be gone.
All that structure, all those lines, lineations, little cubical rooms of shadows falling, all that.
And the step nature of the right side of that.
It would be gone if that was over, so that really doesn't fly.
All right, and again, all of this is visible in the raw data, not the enhanced data where we're beginning to look at pixelization and so forth, but in the raw data.
That's right, because I find it very difficult to convince people by looking at very high-resolution close-ups where you can't see a picture of anything.
You've got to be able to relate it to something to begin to convince people.
And then show them, okay, we're going to look at this area a little closer up.
Are you still with me?
And get to that point, and then they can begin to relate clearly from one to the other.
But you've got to start, to me, with raw data, the basic, here's a picture, what do you see?
And that's kind of what I've tried to explain to the listeners tonight.
Ron, let me ask you a question.
Yeah.
Because you brought up part of your background is photo interpretation.
Yeah.
Meaning you've looked at mile after mile after mile after mile of both aerial Yes.
and surface geological formations in photographic form.
Yes.
Have you ever seen the abominable job of stitching images together?
Well...
It's on these damn websites!
Yeah, it is a little surprising.
It's surprising that it is in higher quality.
You're being very kind.
Yes.
Come on, tell us what you really think.
Well, actually, I'm used to seeing, you know, mosaics are not what I spend my time looking at.
I spend my time looking at stereo pairs, if you can get them.
Sure.
And, you know, for geologic interpretation.
And photos that are not mosaics.
Now, the mosaics you put together to look at are obviously a different scale of geologic mapping.
But I do agree.
The quality of these photos, it's paradoxical.
Some of the quality is very good, and some of the things you can see, and yet when they go to put them together, it's just like I used a brownie to do a panorama of the family, you know?
So this is not a result of cheaper, faster, quicker, whatever?
Well, I don't know whether it is or not, but it certainly isn't what we're capable of doing.
When you look at the quality of this super resolution view, And then you go to the Ames website where the background and the other examples, which by the way, you'll find this gentleman very interesting, the prime example of what the capability of the super resolution technology is capable of producing is a dollar bill.
It's the Masonic emblem in the middle of E Pluribus Unum and they've split it in half and they show you the left half without the technology Well, you may say that.
I just did.
after they stitch together X number of pictures, and there's a stunning eight to one improvement
in the resolution.
So the very hallmark of the group doing this is if I may say, very, very Masonic.
Well, you may say that.
I just did.
But I am impressed more with the analysis of the raw data.
It's very clear.
When you look at the color panorama that Ron was talking about, it's quite clear that those very well may be pyramids.
They certainly look like pyramids.
And yet, at first glance, unless you really look, it's just a couple of hills.
That's right.
You've got to look at the edges like they did, and you've got to look at the coloration changes, trace edges down, and then look at changes in slope.
Follow the angles, and all of a sudden it becomes like, well now, how do you get natural stuff like that?
Now wait a minute.
Let's be clear that semantically we're all on the same page.
Yes.
When you say raw data, the super resolution frame, 8.1... He's not talking about that.
But that is a raw data frame.
Yeah, Richard's correct in that.
That is raw data.
What we've done is present that untouched.
Right.
And then what we simply did was apply what's called a high-pass filter, which sharpens edges.
And we presented them side-by-side so you can compare.
We clearly labeled them.
81977 is a raw NASA frame from their computers.
And the stunning geometry in that frame correlates with the broader color view that Ron has been discussing.
And all I'm saying is I find it easier to discuss with folks what they might see in the broader color view than they would in the raw data as demonstrated in the high-res photo.
All right.
That's all I'm saying.
All right.
So the high-res photo then is not an enhanced photo.
It is as it is.
That's right.
Okay.
It is strikingly anomalous, and I think, Ron, are you suspicious that they yanked that photo as interesting as it is?
Yeah, I'm amazed at it.
Like I said, I've only had about 24 hours to look at the whole thing, and all I've looked at is what your listeners can look at.
It's on the website.
That's all I've seen, and that's all I've been able to interpret.
I don't even have a good Photoshop program to go any farther than that.
Frankly, that didn't bother me, because I wanted to see what listeners are going to see.
And, uh, I see it up there in those things, as I believe you have, and looking at the edges of them, and it's like, it's suspicious looking stuff.
It's natural.
Now, the key thing, remember, is we can test these ideas.
By asking the audience to ask NASA to do what?
Okay, first thing.
Peter Smith should stop playing head games with us, alright?
Well, alright.
A friend of mine in Los Angeles, Linda, sent me a fax.
He says, At Planet Fest 97, there was something of interest set during the Live From Mars feed.
I had not been recording or even completely paying attention, and switched the recorder on only after the fact.
This is what I remember.
Peter Smith was being interviewed.
Remember, he's the chief imaging guy.
Yes.
When a little kid asked something to the effect of, what was the biggest surprise about the Martian landscape?
Peter's immediate response was that the double-peaked mountain in the panorama Was just like the double peak mountain comprising the M in the imp insignia on the shirt he wears every single day at the press conference.
Now, is that just a coincidence, Poison Girls?
I don't know.
Ron, um... Well, no, wait.
Let me frame this in a more technical way.
If you look at the broad view, the liking view of this whole floodplain... Richard, we don't have that kind of time.
Okay.
So, at this point, I think we're going to thank Ron.
He's told us and painstakingly taken us through These images, and Ron, I want to thank you for doing that.
I appreciate the opportunity.
When you develop more information, Ron, we want to have you back.
Alright, I appreciate that.
Ron will be writing up his thesis, his comments, his observations, and we'll be putting them on the Enterprise site as soon as possible.
Alright.
Ron, thank you so much.
Thank you, Art.
I appreciate it.
Take care.
Thanks, Ron.
Alright.
Now, when we come back, Richard is going to take phone calls.
If I have to twist his arm off at its juncture point, he will take phone calls.
And I think that what we have presented is of significance.
And while I didn't think that at the beginning of the program, I do now.
By the way, regarding the rover modem, the RF center frequency is 459.7 MHz.
The RF channel bandwidth is 25 kilohertz.
It is FM modulation, half duplex simplex handshaking, and that is the information there.
We'll be right back!
back. The talk station AM 1500 KSTP. Joe Chouchere weekdays 2 to 5 on AM 1500 KSTP.
Joe Chouchere weekdays 2 to 5 on AM 1500 KSTP.
AM 1500 KSTP.
AM 1500 KSTP.
you.
Thank you for watching.
Call Art Bell toll free.
West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
1-800-825-5033.
This is the CBC Radio Network.
That's who we are.
Top of the morning, everybody.
5.
That's 1-800-232-5665.
You've got nothing to lose but the pain.
All right.
Bellum Art Bell sent you.
That's nice.
Interrupt yourself, Bellum.
Great.
Richard, are you there?
I'm here.
All right.
I have got several messages indicating That the photograph, the high-resolution photograph that you're talking about, the Twin Peaks, are now back on the Pathfinder website on Sol 1819.
You might want to check and find out for yourself.
On the main site?
That's what they're saying on the Pathfinder website.
So, would you take a look?
Okay, I'm not in a position right now to do that.
Let me do that the next time.
Well, maybe you can have one of your assistants do that.
Yeah, I could do that if I can find anybody who's awake at this time of night.
I see, alright.
I promised the audience you would answer questions this hour, and they await.
Okay, let me make a couple of points before we do that, alright?
One is, I want other geologists than Ron, independent, not paid by NASA.
There's a lot of them that listen to you because I get faxes all the time.
I want them to go to the mirror sites, the NASA site if it's back there, our site, Look at these images, these high-res, super-resolution images of the top of this thing, and tell me what you think.
Fax us here at 505-771-0820.
Say it again and say it right.
I'm sorry, 0820.
505-771-0820.
Say it again and say it right.
505-771-0820.
Or you can leave us an email message at enterprise, www.enterprisemission.com.
I want independent analysis.
Alright.
Number two, if people really give a damn, if anybody out there tonight wants to know, I mean really know and not just talk and talk and talk and talk and talk.
Yes, yes, yes.
They should fax Dan Golden at 202-358-2810.
202-358-2810.
We know you know how to fax.
three five eight two eight one zero two oh two three five eight two eight one zero we
know you know how to fax. Asking him to do what? To send the rover to the Twin Peaks.
All right.
They, again, Richard, by the way, I've got the technical information on the rover.
I read it.
I don't know if you heard it.
Yes, I did.
459.7 megahertz, 25 kilohertz bandwidth.
It's FM modulation.
They don't give a power here.
But they claim that they can't go that far.
Well, you had two expert witnesses from NASA who claim they are underestimating publicly what they can do.
I know.
And I concur.
All right.
I do have one response for you.
It says, wow, front, back, up, down, looks like a pyramid to me.
I was also able to download the picture off the sun.com site.
Kudos, guys.
The edges pop out upon a close look.
I've been very disappointed with most of the pictures from Mars.
They just don't look professional for NASA.
I've had many questions regarding the Mosaic Sloppy Pictures Anomaly City of Mike in Spokane.
Well, Mike, go to the head of the class.
All right.
One more thing.
It's got to be quick.
People should send copies of their golden facts to Koppel and to Holloman.
If the press doesn't hear that people care, nothing will happen.
The only leverage that we have on this administration is the political pressure of letting media know So the media can ask embarrassing questions if they don't do what we want.
That's true.
So, Holliman's number is 404-681-3578.
404 in Atlanta, 681-3578.
And Ted Koppel's fax number is 202-222-7976.
681-3578. 404 in Atlanta, 681-3578. And Ted Koppel's fax number is 202-222-7976. 202-222-7976.
All right.
I think it would be worthy to get somebody with some technical expertise with regard to the amount of power being run, the antenna heights, the line-of-sight capability, so that we could make a judgment about whether this thing really could get over there without losing signal.
As you point out, we've had two experts say yes, they believe it could.
I would like to Yes, Dan.
Yes, Richard.
to know that for sure. All right, first time caller line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland. Hello. Hello there.
Going once, twice, gone. Wildcard line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland. Hi. Hi. This is Dan in Virginia. Yes,
Dan. Yes, Richard, all this is leading up to something, you know, a little beyond what the detail that you're getting
in tonight, you know, like the sacred ceremony, the connection of all these points in this critical time. And I'm
What is the purpose behind it?
Is this going to be like opening up a new reality, a new dimensional shift?
I think that's an excellent question.
And again, this is not speculation, but if there are these three groups in NASA, a tiny group of the Enlighteners, the Masonic guys that have been guiding the system for 30 years that we can now figure out with the computer, There's a middle group which is basically the honest but somewhat ignorant scientists and engineers who simply go to work and think they're doing science when in fact they're also doing something else.
And then there's a tiny group trying to keep us from knowing anything about who we are and what we're all doing in this place.
I think that it's now, you know, push come to shove time.
And the Enlighteners are working on some kind of a timetable.
And it looks to me like this, putting this picture out and then taking it back and putting it out again is part of a mechanism of raising public awareness, getting discussions like this going, and seeing if anybody out here gives a damn.
Well, we're noticing.
It'll be interesting to find out if this picture really has been returned.
East of the Rockies, you're on there with Richard Hoagland.
Hi.
Hi, Art.
Richard, Steve from South Dakota.
Yes, Steve.
Say, I've got two quick questions here, and then I'll listen off the air so somebody else can get in.
I understand the resolution on the Global Surveyor that's coming in is predicted to be 50 times greater than on the Viking cameras?
It's a meter to maybe two meters, something like that.
Okay, how does the high-res tech camera system on Pathfinder compare to the Global Surveyor's cameras?
And two, how do Pathfinder's high-res cameras compare to the 60's high-res Lunar Orbiter cameras?
Those are good technical questions, and frankly I haven't had time to sit down and actually do the numbers.
I could ballpark them off the top of my head.
This whole new technology, the super resolution, the cellular statistical technology group at Ames?
Yes.
If you take a number of low-res frames, Art, and put them together in the computer, you can synthesize a high-res picture.
And the increase, the improvement, is about 10 to 1 with the best data.
That means that Global Surveyor, if it took enough pictures of the face, of course they're telling us they can't, of Cydonia, we could composite them in the computer using this technology, and instead of a meter, we could get down to maybe a tenth of a meter.
Which is what?
A few inches, right?
Mm-hmm.
That should tell us something.
We could do the same thing over these pyramids.
Photograph the Pathfinder landing site, if Malin will permit, And look at very high resolution down on these things to correlate what the surface lander is seeing with what the orbital view is at a much higher res, even without the super resolution technology.
Sure.
So there's a lot that can be done, but it comes back to the politics.
Unless the American people make a clear statement, and I mean the millions of people who are following these cutting edge things you talk about every night.
Think about Philip Corso.
Think of what he was saying.
The CIA basically has taken over NASA, and they're running the space program.
He was trying to tell you lots of clues the other night between the lines.
But he's looking for a few good men and women to step up to the plate and do their constitutional duty, which is to demand some accountability.
This should not be going on, and the only reason it is is because our representatives in the press are too damn dumb to know what questions to ask, and everybody else is too timid I mean, Peter Smith is leaking instead of sitting there saying, look what we've found, and look how we're going to test it.
I really do find it a little difficult to believe that using the frequency they're using with FM, that they could not safely begin to venture that far out.
In other words, what we can see, and we're not far from ground level, is line of sight.
And the antenna's up at that same altitude.
There's no reason in the world why they can't move that little rover way out.
I agree.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
Good morning, gentlemen.
My name is Jeanette, and I'm from Lathrop, California.
Yes.
Quick comment, and then a question that I hope is not redundant.
My comment is, Mr. Hoagland, I am blind and you are really good at, even though I can't see the picture, you're really good at making it easy to visualize and I really appreciate that.
Well, thank you.
Now, question, and I really hope this isn't a stupid question, because I missed like the first few minutes of the show tonight.
Okay, they've got a picture that is a pyramid, and it's not where the little thing is.
It's not by Scooby-Doo and Yogi and all that, right?
Oh no, it's a half a mile out.
It's far away.
Now, did the same camera take this picture, or did they send up another camera, i.e., why they had all the extra fuel on board?
Oh no, it's the same camera on the lander that we've all been seeing.
The fuel question is a very good, persistent question.
I still don't understand, and Czarnik was going to comment, And we kind of bypassed it tonight.
He can't understand, as a veteran of 35 years, with all these missions, why NASA would have put five times more fuel on this thing.
That it needed.
I mean, it just doesn't make any sense.
All right.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
Where are you calling from?
This is Vince from Chicago.
Hi, Vince.
Richard, brilliant work.
I really admire what you're doing for the American public.
Well, see, the American public has to do something themselves now.
We now have a thing we can all do.
It doesn't take expertise.
It doesn't take knowledge.
All it takes is guts and motivation.
And Richard, you have a lot of guts.
You know, NASA might bamboozle most of us, but they're definitely not bamboozling you.
Did you happen to notice that cartoon-like simulation that they were playing when Pathfinder first landed on Mars?
Of course.
Did you happen to notice what I saw, or am I going nuts?
I saw a rock, a large rock in the southwest corner of the screen that had a pyramid-like top to it.
Yes.
Yes.
Are they trying to send some sort of a message out?
It's head games.
It's really head games.
We're dealing with people who basically think of us as pawns and chattel to give them the money to do their own thing and to hell with the rest of us.
And it's time it stopped.
You know, that was really obvious when I saw that.
Somebody is definitely putting out some sort of a message, and I absolutely picked up on it.
All right, well, maybe it was.
It could have been a message, no doubt about it.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
Hi, where are you?
Hi, gentlemen, Bill from Youngstown, Ohio.
Hi, Bill.
Question for you, quick one and a half for Richard.
Art, did you get a letter from me with a message for Richard and another gentleman?
I'm sorry, I don't recall.
Okay, I'll rewrite it and send it to you.
Richard, is there any way of calculating from what's sticking out of the ground, the relationship and distance of the bases of the pyramids, and thereby being able to calculate what other structures might be buried?
Excellent question.
If I'm right, they're the same size as what we're seeing at Cydonia, except the Cydonia pyramids are not buried.
And they're also made of pretty stern stuff.
If you think of the volume of water, And you do the hydrological calculations based on Earth examples like the scablands of eastern Washington come to mind.
The plucking force, this vacuum flow behind the water flow in the downstream position is tons per square feet.
And it's ripped off that downstream side on the exposed flank of the Northern Pyramid, which protected because of the inhibition of the vortex formation The same kind of force being applied to the side we see of the left-hand pyramid, which still retains its covering.
And all of this is calculable, all of this is within current physics, and when you strip away in your imagination the treatise level, it looks as if the size of these things is very comparable, about a mile square, to the things we're seeing at Cydonia.
All right.
First time on our line, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
Hi.
Yeah, I've been listening.
It's been fascinating, but... Where are you?
I am in Redmond, Washington.
All right.
And I got up there and I looked at the pictures, and what I'm looking at looks like the top of a hill with a strata of some kind of a white layer that's exposed at two sides by whatever erosion they've got up there.
Now, I'm someone who would love to find, you know, that there was a civilization up there and everything like that.
But I gotta admit, Richard, what I'm hearing is the classical flim-flam.
I'm hearing, all right, NASA took these down, this gives me credibility.
Oh, NASA put them back up.
I'm right again, that proves me.
Well, now, we don't know that they're back up.
I've been up there.
I've been on the Mir site.
I've been on the NASA government site today.
And?
And looked at them both places there.
Why do you sound so nervous?
Basically because I'm talking on the radio all over the country right now.
No, you're just talking to me.
No, there are people all over the country listening, so I apologize if I sound nervous.
That's alright.
Well, when you say flim-flam, I am saying let's test the hypothesis.
I'm going, how can you trust someone who can't be wrong?
What do you mean?
I mean, you said, look, you're giving us this thing.
If this wasn't happening, NASA wouldn't have taken them down.
Well, guess what?
We go up to all the sites, and they're there, and you go, Well, that obviously proves they're trying to play games with our mind.
It's the classic, you know, snake oil salesman.
Darn if he'd only taken my meds and the sooner he'd be alive, he'd better buy them now.
No, wait a minute.
Wait a minute.
Did you hear Ron Nix earlier?
Yes, I've been listening for about three hours.
All right, well, he's a credentialed geologist.
And Ron said when he went to the sites, they were not there.
That's right.
Caller.
Well, all I know is that they're there.
They've been there all night.
Well, they're there now.
They're there now.
Look, I... Then let's go to the details in the pictures.
Do you see the geometric structure?
He said he did.
Alright.
Do you have a background in geology?
He's gone, so he can't answer that, but I would say probably not.
Well, the point is that what I'm recommending is we test.
Kallenbeck, the project scientist, was asked by our CNN friends the other afternoon, on Tuesday, whether They had gotten everything in the novel A Mission.
And he said they had.
All right?
That means now that this rover and this lander are free to do exciting, cutting-edge, frontier things.
Like go to this pyramid and see if it's really rooms and structure and lawn furniture and ancient computers and all that junk, and test the idea!
Well, I'm gonna say, Richard, Ron Nix impressed me.
Uh, I, you know, and I came back at him several times, and he stood his ground, and he is a very credentialed geologist, so, um, I'm impressed.
And there will be others.
I guarantee you when people of Ron's caliber look at these, they will have the same problems with a natural model that he has, that I have, because they are bizarre pictures.
And the more you know about the way mechanisms for flow and deposition and layering and cross-bedding and all that are supposed to work, the more questions that reasonable scientists will have who are not bought and paid for by the government.
Okay, Richard, if we get more geologists backing up Mr. Nix, then...
I would be happy to begin laying the pressure on the media to ask the right questions.
No problem with that at all.
We're at the bottom of the hour.
We're going to take a break and we'll be right back.
You're dirty sweet, catty-smack, don't look back when I love you.
You're dirty and sweet, I'll admit.
When you're slim and weak, you've got the teeth of a hydrant on you.
You're dirty sweet, and you're my girl.
We start at the oasis, send your camel to bed.
Shadows paint in our faces, traces of romance in our heads.
Heaven's holding our heads, moon is shining just for us.
We slip off to a sad new reason.
We'll kick up a little dance, it's cold out, and candles are red.
is taking calls on the wildcard line.
That's 702-727-1295.
First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222.
Now, here again, Art Bell.
Top of the morning.
That's 702-727-1295. First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222. Now, here again, Art Bell.
Richard C. Hoagland is here if you have questions. That's what we have phone lines for.
I told you to call 1-800-444-1050.
All right, back to Richard C. Hoagland near Albuquerque.
Richard?
Yes, I have had a chance to check the web, and it's back.
It's back.
It's on the AIMS site.
There's also a Cornell Mirror site that we look at.
It's there.
It was not on any of these yesterday or the day before.
Is that right?
Pretty interesting.
And I've got a credible witness.
Because Ron, of course, when I said, I want you to look at something, he went looking.
And it was not there.
So what happened?
Did they get lots of people saying what happened to it?
Or what kind of head games are we seeing here?
Well, it's reasonable to conclude they're listening.
But we did not... I mean, you're... I don't think it happened just tonight.
But maybe it did.
Who knows?
Well, all right.
First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
Hi, Rich.
I've looked at the site myself.
I saw it tonight for the first time, and I'm sorry.
To me, it looks like a natural formation.
It looks like something I've seen in the Southwest many times.
I don't see the details that you have described.
Yes, I can see they're in there, but it still is natural to me.
I just have a very hard time buying this whole story.
Well, but wait a minute.
You heard Ron Nix, who's a geologist of 30 plus years experience, in desert terrain, out here in the southwest, saying that he has major problems in explaining this in terms of natural models.
Yeah, that's what I'm hanging my hat on to, Caller.
I'm not a geologist.
I see what he described.
And if it is as he described, I mean, he's got 30 years behind him.
Then it is anomalous, and it's reasonable to ask, okay, what is it?
Hey, we have some anomalous things here in the Southwest.
As you know, there's some coral formations from ancient oceans that form mountains.
It's true, and I think if Ron were here, he would not deny any of that.
But he did point out several very anomalous things.
You just can't deny it.
He did.
You know, I'm not an expert.
I presume you're not.
I guess maybe I'm wrong.
Are you a geologist?
No, I've taken some courses in college on it.
Let me get to the nitty gritty.
Would you want the rover to go over and take a close look?
Oh, absolutely.
Good.
That's all we need.
All right.
Yeah, that's right.
That really is all we need.
Let me quote Captain Kirk to you, all right?
This is the Enterprise mission, so I will quote Captain Kirk.
Yes.
During one of the early episodes, Gene wrote a set of lines which is crucially important to this whole discussion.
He said, That's what this starship is all about.
Yeah, you're quite right.
If this agency is not going to take this technology and ask the hard, interesting, remarkable, important question, then what the hell good is it?
Well, you know what I think I'd do if I were them, Richard?
I would go look at all the scooby-doos and the close-up stuff without risk first.
And after I had examined just about everything I could lay my hands on nearby at low risk, Then yes.
I would say let's venture out, and if we lose it, we lose it, but let's give it a try.
Well, but wait a minute.
Golombek says they've accomplished the mission objectives.
That means that there's a certain protocol, a certain bureaucratic kind of thing you do in Washington, and they set the bar very, very low on this mission.
I mean, hell, one week And one rock, all right?
Yeah.
So they've exceeded that, because the data rate is five times better than they ever imagined they would be able to get.
So in two and a half weeks, they've done more than they thought they could do.
So now we're into Clover.
Now we're into, you know, high-risk stuff.
And here's why you've got to do it now.
Every day that we don't go means that Clover could fail.
Or, if there is a group that doesn't want us to know, they could arrange so it does fail.
All right.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
Hi.
Hello, Art.
Yes, sir.
This is Jack.
Thanks for answering.
Sure.
Where are you, Jack?
In Vallejo, California.
All right.
First, I got one slight comment for you, kind of information here on your programs.
I've listened to them, and from time to time, You've gotten some jamming from what sounds like ham radio operators right on your frequency here.
Well, that would be a local thing.
Do you have a question?
Okay, yeah, I do.
First of all, Richard, I find a lot of what you say very suspect.
First of all, who do you work for?
Do you work for NASA?
No.
Who do you work for?
I work for the Enterprise mission.
I don't know what that is.
Well, it's a public institution supported by people who are interested in these questions that provide money through educational materials, for books, through tapes, you know, briefings we've done for NASA and other, you know, institutions.
All right, then.
Why doesn't NASA hold you liable for some of the comments that you make towards them, which sound very negative, and you almost... Well, it's not a question of liability, Karl.
There's no liability here.
If somebody's saying, this is interesting, Uh, why isn't NASA looking at this?
That's not libelous.
Yeah, but you've, uh, actually, uh, uh, uh, uh, almost, uh, accused him of, uh, perhaps, uh... Lying.
No, uh, murder.
And, uh, uh... No, he hasn't.
Well, yeah, there were a couple of, uh, deaths involved... No, no, no, yes, yes, that's true.
He questioned the deaths.
That is quite a bit short of accusing anybody of murder.
Okay, and about your hyperphysics, physics and all that stuff, what references do you have for your listeners to follow up on this stuff?
I mean, you never quite list any books or people that are involved in any kind of publication.
You're now referring to hyperdimensional physics, right?
Hyperdimensional physics, yeah.
Have you read my book, sir?
Are you a physicist?
Have you read my book?
It's a fair question.
Have you read his book, caller?
No, but you're not a physicist.
You know how many references there are in my book.
That's enough.
You know, Richard, he's not being reasonable.
He's just coming at you with an ad hominem attack.
There's no reason for that.
It seemed like that.
Yeah, it seemed like that to me too.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
Hello.
Hello, how are you today?
Quite fine.
It's a pleasure to talk to you, Art, and your friend there.
I've been listening to you for years, and this is very interesting to me.
But the problem is, to the beginning, when they showed the first picture, they were stunned to see a flat rock.
How come they never went to it to study it or found out why there was a flat rock on Mars?
Good question.
The question is, is how come nobody did inquire about that flat rock?
Richard, how could there be a flat rock if that was this incredible flood plain?
They're talking about, um, how do you end up with a flat rock?
Well, as Ron was saying, if you have a vast volume of water rushing at high speed down this flat plain, and it's moving a lot of boulders with it, the grinding and the bumping and the jostling and the crashing is going to round off the edges and you get rounded rocks, right?
Right.
If you have sharp, angular things, it means that they're basically pretty close to their source.
Right.
Now, NASA is explaining the angular stuff as impact debris.
You get craters, you get ejecta, and the stuff falls back and it shards.
Okay.
A flat rock is an interesting anomaly because it fits more with Ron's idea that it's part of a sharp, you know, event that was produced locally.
In other words, debris that comes from something not far away That basically settled to the bottom of the stream and when the water went down, it was left.
And there's a lot of these weird, highly angular, some of them look like bent metal plates, like that one on the left of the color panorama I've got up there.
We should go and look at these.
I mean, if you put that x-ray gadget up against that bent one... Ron was definitely agreeing with that.
And it came back as mostly iron and carbon.
Well, iron and carbon are steel.
That alpha spectrometer would Crystal clear, pun intended, give us definitive anomalous data at a materials level.
Not just what it looks like, but what it's made of.
This little rover is tailor-made to explore a debris field from a shattered pyramid.
And then the question is, why did we land almost at the base?
If you look at this large plane on the big, big maps, which we have up on our Pathfinder site, these two little bumps are basically the only bumps for 100 square miles around.
And we landed right next to them.
And there's this double peak on Peter Smith's shirt.
Do I have to draw pictures?
Susan, once to the Rockies.
You're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
Hi, Richard.
Yes, sir.
First of all, I just wanted to mention to you kind of a coincidental day.
July 26th today is the first day of our Mystic Brothers, the Mayans, their New Year.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
They have 18 months, 20 days long, and then there's 5 days left over, which they call Vaebs, which are like a cleansing period.
Okay.
That's just a coincidental date I wanted to mention to you.
I had a question for you.
I know you've done a lot of work with the 19.5 degrees.
Yep.
With the Jupiter red spot, the sun spot, cloud bounds on Saturn.
I wanted to ask you, have you drawn any conclusion, or what's the significance of that 19.5 degrees?
Well, in the classical equations of Maxwell, in the work of Lord Kelvin, who was one of the founders of modern physics a century ago in England... This goes to the earlier ad hominem attack question, by the way.
And in a whole series of mathematical papers from the 20s on through the 70s and 80s, In the mathematical literature, which is a subset of, you know, topologists, a subset of mathematicians, there is a whole field called hyperdimensional topology, which models higher dimensional sets.
And when you rotate these models in the mathematics, in your mind's eye, in the conceptual frame, they produce vorticular motion at 19.5 degrees in a three-dimensional sphere.
And isn't it curious that we find a lot of stuff occurring at exactly that latitude all over the solar system and beyond.
All right.
First time caller on line, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
Hi.
Where are you?
Hi.
I'm in Los Angeles.
My name's Gabriel.
Gabriel.
Hi.
I'm with Richard Hoagland 100%.
I think I'm infuriated, actually, at the kind of things that is just...
It's just how much, uh... Well, when I think about the Phoenix thing, and these lights in the sky, I just heard on the news that, um, they were flares, that the Army said they were flares.
Flares don't gain altitude.
They don't look like that.
Well, look, they also said that the flares were designed by parachute to last for a total of five minutes.
The event was 106 minutes.
This is some pretty serious time compression.
And covered several hundred miles from northwestern Arizona down to Tucson.
They're vigorously in the cover-up mode at the moment.
Well, on this particular date, which I find remarkably interesting.
Yes.
Well, what I'd like to know is you gave Koppel's fax number, the other guy with the 404... John Holliman at CNN.
What was his name?
John Holliman.
He's the science guy, a friend of mine at CNN.
I think everybody listening that's interested and is on your side should fax these people right away.
Well, what you need to do is send the fax to Golden and make a copy.
Now, don't be angry.
Just be encouraging.
This is what NASA... Oh, no, I'm not going to write any dirty letters.
No, no, no, no.
Basically what I said, and I hope this is right, as per Richard Hogan's request, I'm contacting you as a member of the general viewing public with the wish that you would address the issues that Mr. Hogan raises.
I think they're very intriguing.
Is that good enough?
Uh, you might mention Ron Nix.
Ron Nix?
What's the last name?
N-I-C-K-S.
N-I-C-K-S.
Yeah, I like Stevie Nicks.
And is there anything else that I should know or write about or ask?
Yeah, this is NASA's mandate.
You can't get one of these people, Donna Shirley or any of the project people on an interview without three sentences in, they talk about looking for life on Mars, right?
Here we got an exquisite example of how we can test an idea.
We've got the gadgets, the technology, it can get there, we can see it, there's provocative images.
For God's sake, let's test it!
Well, I've got to agree.
And I think that Ms.
Knicks this morning gave us enough real hard data based on images that are not enhanced, but basic data that demands that these questions be asked.
And I think you've generally got the right approach.
I'm almost ready to give up on writing to Golden.
I don't see why.
Well, if you copy it to Koppel and to Holliman and to the other people.
I'm just listening to those two because I happen to know them.
I mean, they've got these news conferences, Richard, and it seems like you've laid out enough raw data this morning that these questions ought to be asked at the news conferences.
And let's see what they say.
As soon as John gets back from vacation, he'll be back next weekend.
You see, you're not just sending to Koppel and to Holliman.
You're sending to the network.
When the faxes pile up three feet deep on the floor from thousands upon thousands upon thousands of concerned American citizens who are paying for this mission, that will be what counts.
All right.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
I think you people are a bunch of paranoid, overzealous idiots.
Well, there was another brilliant comment.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
Hi.
I go by EK in your chat room and there's a lot of people talking about it now but one thing that interests me the show Contact a lot of the regular reporters like John Holliman were featured in it as if they were doing real reports and I wondered what was going through his mind I think he must have thought of Richard at that point.
You know that's the first question I'm going to ask him when I get to him when he gets back from vacation next week.
And also one other thing I still have a gut feeling that no matter how far out your stuff may sound, if a one-inch little bug crawled out on a rock, they would not show it to us.
Look, I really don't think all this tonight is that far out.
I think this was a fairly straight-on presentation demanding some Questions be asked.
Richard, um, give out the fax numbers again.
We're okay.
Golan's fax and copy to Koppel and Holloman and any other news people that you know or can find.
The internet now lets you search out all of the reporters and all of the networks.
I'm just giving out my friends here because they're rather, well, we can, we can, we can bring some leverage to bear behind the scenes.
Dan Golan's fax number, which is your fax number in NASA headquarters, 202-358.
2-8-1-0.
That's 2-0-2-3-5-8-2-8-1-0.
Ted Koppel in Washington at ABC News.
2-0-2-2-2-2-7-9-7-6.
2-2-2-7-9-7-6.
Area code 2-0-2.
Alright.
And John Holloman in Atlanta at CNN.
4-0-4-6-8-1-3-5-7-8.
202-222-7976. 222-7976, area code 202. All right. And John Holliman in Atlanta at CNN,
404-681-3578. 404-681-3578.
Imagine how good you guys are all going to feel if you send all this stuff in and Golden or Clinton or somebody comes out and says, because of the overwhelming demand and the space program is the American people's, we're going to take a risk.
We're going to actually do something we didn't quite plan on.
We're going to do it the way we used to do it.
Imagine how you'll feel when that happens.
Well, before this mission is over, and the rover, I guess, is still relatively healthy.
It's perfectly healthy.
There's no reason why they couldn't do that once they've exhausted the immediate available testing and rocks and doobie-doos that they're doing.
Well, they've given it now a 10-foot mission on its own, which I think is a precursor for a much more extended foray.
Moore almost said that at USGS the other day.
He said that it's chomping at the bit to go out to that hill and things like that.
Yes.
So, they're thinking, somebody's thinking, Peter Smith is obviously dangling this image.
This on-again, off-again is baffling.
Because it wasn't there, and then it is there, and this is weird.
Alright, Richard.
It has always been a pleasure.
Now there will be some other geologists.
I thought Ron Nix was particularly credible this morning, and people can argue with you, and they will, because you bring that out in people, Richard.
But I thought Ron Nix's explanation demands some questions be answered, so I'm with you on this one.
Thanks, Art.
Take care, my friend.
And good night, America, from the high, high desert.
Richard, those are the mountains.
That's true.
Good night.
Good night, sir.
All right.
That's it, folks.
Thank you very much.
I think I'll take a day off, if that would be all right.
We'll be back Sunday with Dreamland, and the subject then will be communicating with animals.
It should be a very, very interesting Dreamland.
Remember, my book, The Quickening, now available nationwide in bookstores.
So if you're in a bookstore this weekend, Barnes & Noble, wherever, go in and ask for The Quickening by Art Bell.
That's it from the otherwise high desert.
I'm Art Bell.
Good night.
▲
Export Selection