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July 24, 1997 - Art Bell

02:44:16

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Casebook on the Men In Black - Jim Keith

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	I'm going to be doing something this morning that's way ahead of time.
	I'm going to be playing for the first time on commercial radio, really any radio, parts of the new Cusco album, Aparamac 3, that I've been waiting and waiting and waiting for, and it's here.
	And oh, my, is it good.
	So you will hear portions, no doubt, of that.
	It's going to be returned in Native America, Primate 3, and let me tell you, it is something.
	All right.
	The beginning of Jim Keith's book says, this stuff is black, black, black.
	That's a quote, not of the author, but of Admiral Stansfield Turner.
	Former director of the CIA.
	He said, this stuff is black, black, black.
	And I wonder, Jim, was he referring to the men in black?
	Did he get a question, Jim, about the men in black that caused a retort of that sort?
	In fact, it wasn't a reference to the men in black, it was a reference to black operations, undisclosed government operations that are funded covertly.
	Better that he would have been talking about the men in black, but unfortunately not.
	Well, I gave you my little scenario of what I thought the men in black might be.
	Last night I had Colonel Philip Corso on.
	And no matter what you believe about Philip Corso, it's hard to not be moved.
	And did you happen to hear the program?
	In fact, I didn't.
	You didn't.
	All right.
	He is a lieutenant colonel who was at the very highest levels of government, even in the White House, who has written a book called The Day After Roswell.
	Basically broken down, he received materials from Roswell And seeded them into American industry.
	It is an absolutely incredible story.
	I'm talking, of course, about the artifacts of an alien crash, or several alien crashes.
	And here's a fellow who was in the very highest levels of government telling his story.
	The book is on the bestseller list.
	If you believe the colonel, who is 82 years old, and has no reason to lie, And if you believe that, then a leap to believe that there are men who will come and take care of any evidence of this sort of thing before it gets public, well, that's easy to believe.
	Is that what the men in black are?
	You know, Art, it's surprisingly close in terms of my viewpoint.
	I don't claim to be omniscient about this subject or anything.
	But one of the problems that people have in understanding all kinds of strange events is that they try to pigeonhole them in one category, whereas most of them have more than one source.
	That applies to UFOs, angels, Bigfoot, and it includes the men in black.
	For my true opinion about the men in black, I think that these encounters have at least four types.
	Those include the government.
	That has been trying to shut up witnesses since at least the early fifties.
	Much as UFO buffs don't like to hear it, I think there's delusion about this, too.
	Some UFO buffs can be kind of paranoid.
	Well, it's also a very easy way, Jim, to explain evidence you had, like the fish that got away.
	You know, I had this incredible evidence you can weave a tale.
	And in the middle of the night, like thieves, the men in black came and took Sure.
	Here's my story.
	I wish I had the evidence, but the men in black have got it.
	And I wish I had a dime for every time I've heard that story, too.
	You know, I mean, a lot of researchers lost their smoking gun about Roswell that way, you know?
	Exactly.
	But actually, there are hoaxers in the UFO community, and that includes many prominent UFO researchers.
	And then in addition to that, surprising me as I did this research, is that there's apparently a supernatural connection.
	There really is a supernatural men in black, and that's a category that we seem to know a whole lot about, but at the same time cannot explain whatsoever.
	As far as the government having this kind of alien connection that has been fed into the technology and so forth, It's quite possible, but I always use this kind of Occam's razor thing.
	I have not seen any proof of that.
	I do believe that there are all kinds of advanced government programs and that there have been government aircraft that conform to the shape of flying saucers, but I've never seen that single bit of data or that one that got away that proves that these advanced technologies come from aliens.
	Um, Jim, what led you to even consider writing a book like this, which by its very title would, I would assume, to chronicle what history we know of the men in black?
	I mean, casebook, after all.
	So what led you to be interested in this?
	Boy, that's quite a question.
	You know, I got interested in UFOs and the occult at the age of 7.
	That was in 1957.
	And I believed every word that these wild contactees like Adamski and Truman Berthram had to say about their flights to Venus.
	I've continued to have an interest in the paranormal.
	Now, why I specifically dug into the Men in Black is really for the obvious reason.
	It's very interesting, and that's how I choose my next book at any given time, is what is piquing my own interest so that my research is really more like play than it is like doing a day job.
	Now, there we connect!
	That's me, too.
	It's more like play than a job at all.
	So, you just sort of became intrigued.
	Is the Men in Black a theory that rivals the Black Helicopter business going around now?
	I think it rivals it in popularity.
	And since this new movie comes out, which seems, I have not seen it, but it seems like a glorified Ghostbusters, I think that the Men in Black is going to overtake the Black Helicopters in terms of people tossing these references about and so forth.
	As far as any connection, it is rather minimal.
	I know of one or two cases of black helicopters that have been connected to men in black, but that's out of literally hundreds of these black helicopters.
	Alright, so pretty much the men in black are a separate case.
	I would say so.
	Alright, then let me start with what I probably should finish with, and that is, you've studied it, you're way ahead of almost all of us in this area, the men in black, Is it real?
	Are they real?
	Are there really men in black?
	What have you concluded?
	Absolutely there are.
	But there are also fake men in black.
	It's very interesting.
	I think the same thing is true of really any paranormal phenomenon.
	There are real instances of this and there are fake ones.
	My own belief is that the paranormal sometimes spurs the government to simulate these things to really twist people's minds.
	Yes.
	I've frequently wondered about that.
	Yeah.
	Whether the government has an interest in promulgating the whole idea of the paranormal as a diversion of some sort.
	Who knows?
	You can weave all kinds of fantasy into what we're seeing.
	I do know that certain aspects of the paranormal occur.
	Manipulated?
	Real?
	I don't know yet.
	I think there is a real paranormal.
	I think there are really things that occur that we cannot explain.
	And as you point out, I think some are fake.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	You know, I believe this is really confirmed by CIA and FBI reports.
	Really at the beginning of people's interest in UFOs was right around late 1940s, early 1950s where they talk about infiltrating groups of UFO aficionados and to investigate them because they may be up to subversive things.
	Now, going over literally hundreds of these men in black encounters, I've come to the conclusion that they involve copycatting.
	And that is that government men wear black suits, drive black cars, they stimulate paranormality, and I think there's one reason for this.
	One?
	Well, I've always wondered about that.
	I mean, you're right.
	They do wear black suits.
	They do drive in black cars.
	How come?
	Let's say you have seen a UFO, or let's say that you researched this material and you're getting fairly close to an answer.
	A government man walks up to your door in a black suit with a black hat, maybe he's got weird eyes, maybe he's got long fingers as many of these guys do.
	What it does is it scares the living daylights out of UFO observers.
	Well, you make a good point.
	I mean, if your local government guy drove up in an orange car with a striped tie and Some sort of loudsport jacket.
	You probably wouldn't take him nearly so seriously, as if he were dressed, as you point out, in black with a black hat and a big old black car.
	When you see something like that coming, you're going, oh, uh-oh.
	Yeah, it all seems pretty horrible, especially if they threaten you or threaten your family, and you're not sure if they're from another planet or not.
	I think it's a very effective way to shut UFOs Well, let me tell you, Jim, I've had visits from government agents, various alphabet type organizations, connected to the work that I do here.
	And they are, even though they seem easy going and very nice guys, there is no question about it, Jim, I'm just talking about normal government agents here, in black suits, you know they're carrying, they've got a sort of a Sirius, we're here, and you don't want to mess with this kind of attitude about them.
	And even though they're very nice, and very calm, there's no question about the fact that there is an aura of intimidation that you could cut with a knife.
	You don't want to mess with these guys, even if they don't have these eyes that bug out of their head, or a weird kaleidoscope unit that they train on your eyes.
	You know, I mean, yeah, you're saying they're intimidating enough.
	I'm saying that it's regular old government agency.
	Even without some of the dramatizations that the men in black sometimes do, these guys are bad enough to fool with.
	That's exactly right.
	So, I mean, encountering what you seem to be... Let's get down to it.
	I mean, casebook.
	There are some cases that you obviously believe are the best stories or the best evidence or might be genuine.
	What would they be?
	Well, I don't know.
	There are many good cases.
	One of the most interesting, one that always kind of sticks in my craw, happened to a Dr. Hopkins in Maine in 1976.
	And he had been hypnotically regressing an alleged UFO abductee.
	And he was met or contacted by a man in black who was bald, had dead white skin, and no lips.
	The lips were simulated with lipstick.
	This man in black discussed the UFO abduction case that the doctor was digging into in a monotone.
	He sounded like a robot.
	And then he apparently used ESP.
	He said, Doctor, you have a dime and a penny in your pocket.
	The doctor reached in, and that's what he did have in his pocket.
	The man in the black told him to hold the penny in his open hand, and as the doctor looked at the penny, it turned silver, then blue, and then it slowly dematerialized.
	There was no chance for sleight of hand or ledger domain.
	The doctor was holding this and looking close while it slowly dematerialized.
	Wow!
	Ask Dr. Hopkins if he knew of another famous UFO abductee, um, actually Barney Hill.
	Oh yes, oh yes.
	He had recently died from a heart attack.
	And Hopkins responded that he did.
	And the man in black told him that it was no heart attack that had taken Barney Hill, but the same thing had happened to Barney Hill's heart that had happened to that penny in the doctor's hand.
	Wow.
	As a matter of fact, we are at a break point.
	Jim, when we come back, I want you to tell that one more time.
	I like penny stories.
	So we're going to go through that one more time.
	The story of Dr. Hopkins.
	Do you recall yesterday when Colonel Corso said the alien bodies rapidly decomposed?
	Ed Dames said disappeared.
	And did you just hear what Jim said?
	We'll be right back.
	Men in Black tonight.
	Going back now to my guest Jim Keith.
	Thank you.
	Or am I doing that a bit prematurely?
	No, I'm not.
	Back to Jim Keith.
	Jim, the story of Dr. Hopkins is one of the coolest stories I've heard in a while, and it meshes with a lot of what we've been talking about.
	Would you please tell it one more time?
	Sure.
	One of the reasons I like the Dr. Hopkins story is it wasn't anecdotal.
	When I received it, it was done in very much detail, and this detail was received from Dr. Hopkins' kids.
	Hopkins was not talking after this happened, but it took place in Maine in 1976.
	And Hopkins has been doing some UFO research on his own and regressing an alleged UFO abductee.
	When a man showed up at his doorstep, and this was a man in black, this guy was bald, he had very tasty white skin, and apparently he possessed no lips.
	The lips seem to have been painted on with lipstick.
	And oddly enough, that's a detail that's repeated in other stories where the facial features are simulated.
	Sounds almost like a mime.
	Yeah, could be.
	Could be.
	Or a clone.
	But this man in black talked with the doctor about his research.
	And then he told the doctor that there was a dime and a penny in the doctor's pocket.
	He reached in and that's what was there.
	The man in black instructed the doctor to take the penny in his open hand and as the doctor looked at the penny with no sleight of hand, this all took place quite slowly, it turned silver Then blue, and then it dematerialized.
	And the way that the doctor expressed that this had taken place was that he felt the absence of the weight of the penny on his hand.
	This man in black asked Hopkins if he had ever heard of a well-known UFO abductee, Barney Hill, who had recently died from a heart attack.
	And Hopkins said that he had heard of Barney Hill.
	And the man in black informed Dr. Hopkins that in fact this was no heart attack, but the same thing had happened to Barney Hill's heart as had happened to the penny in Dr. Hopkins' hand.
	And that was the last that Hopkins was ever involved in UFO research.
	He burned all of his tapes, got rid of all of his books, And like I said, the only reason we know about this is because his kids were willing to talk about it.
	Alright, it would be useful, and we may not know, what exactly Dr. Hopkins was working on when this occurred.
	In fact, I have the name of the abductee who Hopkins was hypnotically regressing, but I just don't have it at my fingertips.
	I believe it's in the book.
	Alright, so he was regressing somebody, and we can imagine that he was getting close to information that obviously they did not want out.
	Right, and that's a familiar theme, of course, with the Men in Black, is that people find out about the secret of the UFOs, or they see a particularly spectacular sighting, and then they are encouraged in no uncertain terms to keep their mouths shut about it.
	Well, you know, I can imagine that if somebody like that came to my door, assuming that I lived through the initial sighting of this thing, And it placed it, you know, did that to me with a penny in my hand.
	I would be inclined to go along with Dr. Hopkins.
	Now, it's easy to sit out here and for the audience to say, oh, wouldn't it stop me?
	Baloney.
	If that occurred to you, you'd think 25 times when something occurred in your very own hand and you were told, well, that's what happened to somebody else's heart.
	And the obvious direct indication is this could be your heart.
	Sure, you know us fearless UFO researchers and researchers into conspiracy, you don't really know how you would react when push came to shove and there was a truly significant threat.
	Well, I think I know how I'd react.
	I'd cave big time.
	Assuming I lived through the experience.
	That would say to you, Stop now, or you're not going to live to do any sort of further investigation whatsoever.
	You're simply going to die.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, that seems to be the message.
	Alright, well that was a fascinating case.
	What else have you for us?
	Well, you know, really any number of things, but one aspect that I would like to talk about is sort of UFOs created by government.
	And I think there are a lot of reasons to believe that the U.S.
	and maybe other governments have been, in fact, since the early 1950s, testing these kinds of exotic aircraft that the men in black might want to shut people up about.
	All right, here's a mystery for you, Jim.
	You've seen, I'm sure, coverage of the recent flights over the U.S.
	Oh yeah, sure.
	I had a newspaper person down in Arizona sent me a story of his, indicating that some flight or squadron of planes had been flying over Phoenix that night, and this explains everything.
	The problem is that nobody, the military, the flight controllers at the Phoenix Tower, saw anything on radar.
	And so, it's pretty good to examine.
	Here you've got an area Two and a half million people, and a gigantic sighting above that city that lasted not for a split second, but for 106 minutes!
	Now, what does that tell us?
	Are they trying to... What are they trying to do?
	Are they trying to provoke us?
	I don't claim to be an expert on that Arizona Triangle, but here's what I do know.
	As you well know, Art, there have been literally thousands of sightings of this triangular craft worldwide going back to about 1990.
	There were about 2,000 sightings in Belgium.
	Now, in fact, one of the places where this triangular craft is most often seen is around secret testing bases in California, particularly down by Lancaster.
	I have seen one, Jim.
	Yeah, that's right.
	I've heard you speak of that.
	And actually, a military official in Northern California admitted that the Triangle is a government craft.
	He called it a transport.
	Also, according to Aviation Week in 1991, they said that diamond-shaped and triangular configurations are the trend now.
	Now, like I said, I'm no expert on this, but this would lead me to believe that there is a technology that we don't know about that includes this very slow-moving, huge craft, and that it's not alien.
	Perhaps not.
	But, Jim, it's a big story either way.
	What flew over me, no.
	It didn't fly over me, Jim.
	It floated over me.
	What came over me was defying gravity, doing about 30 miles an hour.
	Uh, 150 feet from one point of the triangle to the other.
	Uh, very low, about 150 feet above me.
	You know, classic stuff.
	Close encounters of the third kind.
	Stars blank out, moon blanks out.
	This thing passes directly over our head.
	And, uh, so that's, that's technology that I don't know that we have right now. That kind of blows my mind as
	well but I got a call from a lady who lives just outside of Lancaster about six weeks ago and she
	lives right in a nexus of about five different secret testing bases down there and she said that
	she saw a huge aircraft at very low level perhaps at about 50 feet.
	Now this thing was glowing, but it did one heck of a big circle around her area of tract homes, moving at an extremely slow speed.
	So, I think the story here is an amazing new, perhaps anti-gravity technology.
	But again and again, I never see this smoking gun linking it to the grays with the big eyes.
	All right.
	Let's move back to the men in black for a second.
	Your book begins with an interesting angle.
	The black arts, demons, witches, that sort of thing?
	Sure.
	How does that fit in?
	You know, these guys, the men in black, just as they're described today, My earliest cases, I think, go back to the 1500s.
	Back in those days, they were always referred to as agents of the devil and were usually seen in the context of witchcraft rituals and satanic sabbats and that sort of thing.
	We went into the irreligious 20th century.
	People started interpreting these guys differently.
	And they were more often seen with UFOs and shutting up witnesses of UFOs.
	And when people were hassled by the men in black, they didn't immediately think, here's an envoy of Satan.
	They thought of them as extraterrestrials.
	All right, I want to read you something.
	Take a moment out and read you a letter that I've got from a listener, if you wouldn't mind, and see if this fits anywhere into your Men in Black.
	All right?
	Art, I want to tell you a true story of the Men in Black.
	My father had fought cancer for several years.
	In the fight, he had lost his nose to surgery and had to wear a fake one made for him.
	He lost all of his Teeth and half his jawbone.
	He suffered through radiation to be told that it was all gone and 30 days later there was nothing more that radiation could do to save him.
	Then he went through chemotherapy.
	Sickness only to reach the point that the doctors were continuing to keep him believing it was working.
	Next my mother died of a heart attack.
	Two months after my father was expected, he died.
	But he wasn't.
	But now he was feeling the loss of my mother.
	And after he had made plans to see that she was taken care of, after he was gone, I can tell you all of this because I've got to know what happened next.
	The only thing keeping him alive was his insistence that he would see the grave marker installed that he picked out for my mother and himself.
	As you know, partners frequently go together.
	I added that.
	I took him to the gravesite in a wheelchair less than a week before he died.
	One evening I was sitting at home with my wife and small children when my sister called from my father's house saying she was frightened, wanted me to come right over.
	When I got there, Dad was insisting that my sister and his caregiver take him home.
	Of course, he was already home.
	When I asked where home was, he gave me the address of where he grew up, and insisted I take him there.
	I really couldn't do that, since the house had been sold after the death of his mother.
	The night later, and we decided that he would be more comfortable at the hospital than at home, the next day I went to see him, he was still wanting to go home.
	The next evening, my sister and I were with him.
	He began to talk to us and tell us he was sorry that he had been so much trouble, And he realized how out of it he had been recently.
	I told him it was alright.
	He told me he was glad that they had come to visit him and set him straight.
	I said, who came to visit?
	And he said, the men in black.
	I asked him who they were.
	And he said he didn't know.
	But they came to visit him and they were going to give him a message.
	Or did give him a message.
	I asked, what was the message?
	He told me, They would return soon to take him to be with my mother.
	Of course, she was now dead.
	This is, and it goes on, and it's from Ron.
	Thank you, Ron.
	Does that sound at all familiar, Jim?
	Yeah, there we're talking really an event that is more usually framed in olden days, with the witchcraft connection.
	These guys are often seen in, for instance, a religious area like Ireland, where they're observed at gravesite and so forth.
	So that fits in perfectly, actually.
	All right, again, the demonic connection, that goes, you're saying, that is where it began around, you think, in the 1500s.
	Right.
	And they were actually described as men in black even then.
	Oh, yeah.
	In very much in detail, you know, they're black silk suits, and they're black hats, and oftentimes these guys then wouldn't be, of course, driving a black Cadillac, but they would be driving black coaches or black cars.
	So it's fairly seamless up until today, but these days I guess they've changed their mode of transportation.
	No reason the modern ones, I suppose, shouldn't use automobiles.
	It is odd, which is something that is almost too obvious to say about the men in black.
	They're really an odd collection.
	I assume that you have more stories yourself of the appearance of these men.
	Yeah, I do.
	Enough that you have become convinced yourself there is something to it.
	Indeed, indeed.
	And that was really the way it took place.
	I started out initially extremely skeptical about this whole subject, but after reviewing dozens or perhaps at least a hundred cases on the men in black, I found that I could explain a great deal of it.
	I could explain a lot of it as government.
	I could explain a good deal of it as hoaxers.
	I could say, the detail on this sounds like this UFO buff was imagining all this.
	But still, there was this residue of paranormality.
	And frankly, I'm not really known as a researcher into the paranormal.
	I mean, my book, Black Helicopters Over America, is extremely down-to-earth and deals with government conspiracy.
	But with the men in black, they kind of, uh, they maybe sit up and take notice about this paranormal aspect.
	Well, I will ask you also about black helicopters.
	You know, it's been a favorite for a long time.
	Sure.
	But the men in black, the men in black, um, maybe you can break it down for me.
	What percentage of the men in black case histories would you say lean toward the paranormal?
	I would say a lot of them have paranormal trapping, but the ones that I find unexplainable really probably don't amount to more than 5%.
	The greatest source, I think, really would be delusion.
	People see somebody dressed all in black, which is rather common, and they're feeling rather spooked anyway that day, and they interpret it as a man in black.
	After that, I would say the government has an involvement.
	And although it sounds a little bit crazy, reading case after case like this, you finally draw the conclusion that, yeah, the government, in order to more thoroughly shut up witnesses, is counterfeiting this men in black thing.
	But as far as things that really look paranormal and things that really can't be explained, they are the exception.
	Well, again, I've had government guys visit, and they are intimidating all by themselves.
	But what you have described, how many of them, for example, in the case of Dr. Hopkins, appear to come without human faces?
	We're talking about descriptions here.
	Are there many like that?
	I've probably got at least 25 cases like that.
	25 cases?
	Yeah.
	Um, when we get back, I want to ask you how you go about collecting men in black stories, interviewing people, that sort of thing.
	How you even begin to build a database for this sort of book.
	Fascinating.
	Alright, Jim, hold on.
	We'll be right back.
	From the high desert, an area near Dreamland.
	It's just over the hill there.
	I'm Art Bell and you're listening to the Independent American CBC Radio Network.
	My guest is Tim Keith and he wrote Kay's book on the men in black.
	It is creepy.
	And Jim, I'm going to steal one more minute.
	We've got, you know, this is radio.
	We've got a lot of time.
	Okay.
	And I'm going to ask you about how you collected your stories, but I'm going to give you one that just burned through my fax machine.
	Okay.
	I think you'll find it interesting.
	Here we go.
	Art?
	I've got to tell you about a Men in Black experience that I had a year ago after an art show I presented called Stranger Than Outer Space.
	It was at the Vancouver Planetarium and presented 50 artists.
	The theme, in general, was space.
	But the topic seemed to lean toward UFO abduction.
	The show was received very well and we had over 1,500 people come to our opening night.
	Lots of people seemed to be open to the whole UFO idea.
	Anyway, the visitations began, started happening shortly after I started sending out the press releases.
	Jodi, my girlfriend, woke up frequently seeing tall, black figures in the room looking down on her.
	Other times it would be Simple mysteries such as coming home to an apartment that had obviously been tampered with.
	Things like windows being opened in the dead of winter when we were away.
	Furniture moving about.
	I didn't believe it at first.
	I didn't want to think that someone was messing with my private life.
	We had the show.
	It went well.
	I was enjoying my time off from organizing and painting the painting the following evening.
	Jody called me from across the room and told me to come have a look at this.
	So I looked out the window from my third floor and looked down into the alley.
	There, I saw two tall men, both in black, both wearing black baseball caps, covering their faces.
	They were just standing there.
	Staring up at us.
	I stood there for quite a while, having the eerie feeling that I was being scanned.
	At one point I nervously waved at them, as to sort of pinch myself.
	One of them coldly put his hand in the air, confirming that it was us they were looking at.
	Just then, the phone rang.
	It was one of the other painters from the art show.
	He said, Well, he began telling me about a strange dream he had had about a saucer.
	Jody looked over me and said, they just disappeared.
	Disappeared.
	And she had a look on her face that I'll never forget.
	I ran to the window and saw they were gone.
	But she said, not gone, but disappeared.
	That's from Mark in Vancouver, BC, Canada, Jim.
	Fairly classic, eh?
	Well, I don't know.
	You tell me.
	Is it classic?
	It sounds right on the mark, really.
	No pun intended, but there are dozens of these things, and you get that same sort of thing in the 1700s.
	Well, for instance, during the plagues in the Middle Ages, there were literal armies of men in black manifesting back then.
	Sometimes they had sort of medieval trappings about them.
	They'd be carrying scythes.
	They'd be seen before outbreaks of the plague.
	These guys have been around for a while.
	Before outbreaks of plague?
	Exactly.
	Would you then jump to the conclusion that they might have been the source?
	You know, it's quite possible and there are other ways that we could look at this as well.
	You know, Timmy, one thing that I've looked at is that reality is maybe a little bit more edgy and malleable than we normally give it credit for.
	And I'm thinking that the men in black and perhaps a lot of other paranormal circumstances manifest as a reaction to trauma and my guess is that probably the
	days of the plague in the middle ages were pretty traumatic.
	But in a way I think that we may externalize and really shape the horror of a UFO encounter
	or of a plague encounter or of a death encounter into a true and a real exterior event that
	takes place.
	I'm not saying it's not real, and I'm not saying that this is a hallucination, but I think that exterior reality reflects far more our interior reality, and particularly our reality of trauma, than we imagine.
	Dan in Lexington, Kentucky would like to know, have you ever heard of, and it follows, women in black?
	Has there ever been a case of a woman in black?
	Off the top of my head, I only recollect one case, and that was during the Mothman Encounters back in 66 and 67, which is a wild set of events that I'd love to go into.
	Go into it.
	Okay.
	In West Virginia, particularly a town called Point Pleasant in 66 and 67, there were literally dozens of sightings of UFOs, there were giant birds, winged humanoids, cattle mutilations, and lots of MIB, lots of men in black.
	You know what?
	I really don't know.
	original paranormal element to that, but then it started to snowball. For instance, John
	Keel, the main investigator of Mothman, who wrote a book about it, had a background in
	military intelligence.
	You know what? I really don't know. There was a Mothman cartoon or something, but you're
	telling me about something that may have occurred.
	Who or what was Mothman?
	Mothman was this huge, weird-looking humanoid with big wings that there were probably at least a hundred sightings of this guy in West Virginia.
	In fact, there were a few varieties of Mothman and giant birds.
	It's an extraordinary UFO flap, as it were.
	Another guy that investigated Mothman was Gray Barker.
	He was a famous UFO writer back in the 50s.
	He also happened to be a prolific hoaxer.
	But, while I think that it might have started out with a paranormal element, I think it may have been that the government tweaked this, and they used it as a psychological operation, or a test tube, to try out various forms of psychological control, and it may have been that there was advanced testing going on nearby, but it seems to have been a conglomerate of real paranormality, and plus heavy government involvement, as well as hoaxing.
	Anybody who's interested in the paranormal has to read The Mothman Prophecies by John Keel.
	All right.
	Well, you know, as in the facts that was sent to me a little while ago, if I were doing this sort of work, which I do now that I think about it, and I were to look out my window and there were to appear two men in black just standing there, just staring, whose faces I could not make out, And I stared back, and then finally one of them raised their hands to indicate they meant me.
	I would take that as a very dire, very dire message indeed.
	And now that I've said it, I'll probably have exactly that happen.
	Yeah, that may go along with what I was talking about externalizing your viewpoint.
	If you're paranoid of something, it's no doubt going to end up on your doorstep.
	Well, just about everything else has happened to me, so why not the men in black?
	All right, any other case histories that you'd care to lay on us that you personally consider to be are the more interesting.
	You know, if I may, Art, could I be real mercenary here and give a number where people could get a copy of the book?
	Of course.
	Okay. Okay, it's Facebook on the Men in Black and it costs $4.
	Oh, is that all?
	Yeah.
	And you can get it at 1-800-680-INET.
	I-N-E-T.
	1-800-680-INET.
	Alright, I like numbers better.
	Do you know what the numbers are?
	In fact, I don't.
	You don't?
	I don't.
	See, that makes everybody convert it.
	1-800-INET.
	So that would be 1-800-4... Yeah.
	So that would be 1-800-466-466-466.
	Three.
	Eight.
	Better for you than me, because I would have taken five minutes figuring it out.
	Well, I've got an old-fashioned phone here.
	You see, that's the problem.
	You know, a lot of the new phones don't put that on there for you.
	I mean, they've just got numbers, so you've got to remember to give it both ways, I have learned.
	Okay.
	$14 and how much?
	$14.95.
	All right.
	It's a pretty good-sized book, too, isn't it?
	Oh, over 216 pages.
	So it's a good-sized book.
	Anyway, be my guest.
	What else can you tell us about The Man in Black?
	Well, there are many, many interesting encounters.
	One that I find quite fascinating is that apparently Adolf Hitler encountered The Man in Black.
	Oh?
	Governor Rauschning of Danzig, Germany, who knew Hitler early in his career.
	Hitler would wake up...
	All right, well that's Germany, harder to trace.
	What about here?
	these people dressed in black and that they were the new man and that they were
	intrepid and cruel and that they horrified him but that this was the
	future and as to whether that's a real man in black story whether it was a real
	paranormal encounter or just just the case of Hitler having having the DT's I
	really don't know but I found it interesting. All right well that's
	Germany harder to trace what about here what about President Kennedy's
	assassination.
	Well, you know, there are a lot of men in black occurrences that are centered around the Kennedy assassination.
	Apparently, on one of the films taken of the motorcade, there is a man in black with a black cape and some old-fashioned hat standing right there at the motorcade.
	I mean, perhaps it's just a coincidence.
	There's another case that is perhaps even more interesting, and that is of a fellow named Castile, who was apprehended in the late 1960s in the Philippines, apparently involved in an assassination attempt on Markov.
	Now, when he was apprehended, the Philippine Police or Secret Service, or whatever they were, used a truth drug on him, at which time Castillo came out with this story that apparently he was a multiple personality disorder, and he had like four or more discrete personalities, each with a name, each with an identity.
	Um, and in fact, I believe he was carrying a number of different ID cards as well.
	It's a wild story in itself, but the payoff on it was that he believed that he had been involved in an assassination attempt What do we know about what the men in black have actually done?
	the controller had been a man in black who drove a black Cadillac who had pasty skin
	and so forth.
	So that's probably the best thing I know in terms of the Kennedy assessment.
	What do we know about what the men in black have actually done?
	For example, are the vast majority of the cases simple intimidation?
	That's really not simple if you're intimidated.
	Or do we know instances where men in black, beyond the Dr.
	Hopkins story, have killed?
	I don't know of any instances where a man in black killed anyone, but there are a lot of truly sinister stories from the old days that, like I said, involve these sort of witchcraft elements.
	It seems that half of the people that were involved with men in black back in those days were involved in eating children and abducting people and in sacrifice and so forth.
	In doing what with children?
	I hate to even mention it, but... Did you say eating?
	Eating, yeah.
	Eating as in Jeffrey Dahmer eating?
	Indeed, yeah.
	Yeah, and if I had it to say over again, I think I would have omitted that detail.
	But yeah, a lot of those old time stories really are pretty darn sinister.
	I was convinced when I was a child that there was something in my closet.
	That would have eaten me, given half an opportunity to get out.
	And to this very day, and people can laugh as they will, I close closets.
	I don't go to sleep with open closets.
	Because that's where things that would eat you come from.
	Hmm.
	I'm serious.
	You know, it began that way as a child.
	You know, when you'd go under the covers?
	You know, I think childhood offers sometimes a pretty clear doorway into the archetypes of our existence, into the nitty-gritty.
	I remember as a child, I felt like I was being sucked up into the air and out of the house.
	And at the time, I had no way of really framing it or understanding it, looking back on it.
	I think there might have been something interesting going on there.
	Well, I am convinced, Jim, That children, in their innocence, before they have been, in effect, mind-conditioned not to believe in the unbelievable, do it because it's real.
	I mean, it really is there, so they see and hear and imagine things that later on they are trained not to believe in.
	So they don't see them later, or they're not aware of them, but the young, innocent, new mind See things the older, mature, brainwashed mind does not.
	That cuts back into my thesis about that we manifest our own reality in the sense that kids often have a number of imaginary playmates.
	This is very, very common.
	It may be that this isn't delusion, but as we grow older, as we solidify, we exclude these other beings and it's simply us from then on out.
	It may be that we are simply Changing in terms of our approach and cutting out a lot of the messages and a lot of the beings that are truly around us.
	You've got it.
	Alright, Jim.
	Good cut-off point.
	Stay right there.
	Men in Black.
	There's more to come.
	I'm Art Bell and this is CBC.
	From Russell in Kansas City.
	Art, you seem troubled by this Men in Black stuff.
	Nobody seems to have trouble talking about men in white.
	We call them angels, I believe.
	So, if we believe in angels, does it not follow that there should be men in black?
	Is that a proper attitude, Jim?
	You know, I saw a... I'm just reminded of this.
	I saw a show, it was like, I don't know.
	There's something soap hour back in 1955 or something.
	This was in very early days TV and it was about a man in white and a man in black who came to this small town and circulated amongst the people and the rumor mills got going and so forth and the man in black was characterized as being a devil or an evil man and so forth and they finally It's a good point.
	sending the man in black out of town at which time the man in white made it clear what his
	purpose was or were, which was that he in fact was the evil controller and that a fashion
	statement doesn't necessarily always indicate a person's orientation.
	Oh my gosh.
	That's a good point.
	As a matter of fact, a very dear friend of mine for many years is in Nevada with us and
	you're in, I think you're in Reno, right?
	That's correct.
	Alright, well I'm not far from Las Vegas.
	In Las Vegas there is John Lear and the son of Bill Lear.
	And he did for years and years research UFOs and said something to me once that has always bugged me and will until the day I die and then possibly even beyond that.
	He said, You know, it's funny, Art.
	Everybody tells you, when you die, go to the light.
	Go to the light.
	Go to the light.
	The light tunnel.
	All the rest of it.
	He said, I have been told by reliable sources, it's a trick.
	It's a trick.
	And if you go to the light, you're going exactly where you don't want to be going.
	He said, in fact, you should go to the darkness.
	And I have almost cursed John ever since for telling me that.
	So I tell it to my audience.
	It's something you can sit there and think a little bit about.
	Fashion statements, huh?
	You know, I heard the same thing from a fellow who wrote a book called War in Heaven, which was a pretty interesting book about the way that astral beings control the Earth.
	And he said the same darn thing.
	Watch out for that light.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	Oh, thanks.
	That reinforces something to wonder about.
	That leaves us in a heck of a position, doesn't it?
	Yes, it does.
	Alright, let's take the remainder of this half hour and still talk about the men in black and ask you what other instances, for example, around... Oh, I know!
	Before I even get to that, my wife said you asked him about a woman in black and he said there was only one story And she said, I want to hear it because somehow we got launched into mock mail.
	Well then, what I would say is for your dear wife to crack the darn book.
	It's a complicated story, and frankly, I don't remember a lot of the details.
	In many ways, I'm kind of the mad professor.
	I dive into whatever book I'm working on at the time and immerse myself in that subject.
	If I've done a book like The Men in Black about a year ago, sometimes the details drop out.
	I swim in a lot of detail art.
	All right, I was going to ask you and now I shall.
	I have retrieved already a couple of stories from listeners tonight about Men in Black.
	How do you get them?
	Well, you know, one thing I would like to say is that I think that When we start getting calls, you might be surprised at the frequency of Men in Black stories.
	I mean, they are all over the place.
	I know.
	The phones are ringing off the hook, but I still want to know, without the resource that I have to just say, I want to talk about Men in Black, let me hear it.
	How do you go about collecting stories for a book?
	Well, it's almost an intuitive thing.
	I don't really think about how to do it.
	Primarily, I have fun with it.
	I started off by contacting my friends and a network of researchers that I'm associated with around the world on a friendly basis with perhaps at least 50 researchers in this area.
	Then I gather and read everything on the topic and with some men in black.
	I expect I probably must have read at least 50,000 pages.
	There is a good deal of material on this.
	And then as I read this material, I isolate names and addresses and so forth out of the material.
	to talk on the subject. With the Men in Black, there were quite a few people who were reticent
	about it, but there are other experts on the subject, and I talked to experts and quite
	a few people who had encounters. But of course with any book, and I expect you probably felt
	this way about the quickening, is as soon as the book is done, then comes the avalanche
	of great stories. That's of course correct.
	Any other favorites?
	You have a chapter here called On a Bender.
	What is that all about?
	What that was is an early UFO bust.
	Who edited a magazine about UFOs and ran a UFO organization.
	He claimed that he was contacted by three men in black who told him the ultimate secret about UFOs, what they were really about and then took him...
	Initially, he said that they were government, and they told him to shut up about it.
	As time went on, and as the dollar signs kind of arose in his back brain, the story got more convoluted, and he went to the planet Kasik, where everybody was naked, and it was quite a joyride he had in the UFO.
	But originally it was just him being involved in UFOs and then three men in black contacting him.
	You mean an entire closed optional planet?
	Yeah.
	Yes, and apparently this story had a good deal of currency among UFO buffs back then, but the men in black were really quite apparent right at the beginning of UFO research, around 1947 through the early 1950s.
	in fact the one of the earliest encounters that took place thirteen days
	before the famous kenneth arnold encounter where he saw the uh...
	where he saw the ufo's over i think it was mount rainier uh... was the maury island affair and that was uh...
	deciding three donut shaped ufo's that allegedly dropped
	metal and flag upon a boat uh... near tacoma
	and after this took place a man in black out the following day contacted the uh...
	leading witness man in carol doll
	and told him to keep his mouth shut about it so it So it goes right back to the beginning of UFO research.
	You did say donut-shaped, didn't you?
	That's right.
	I bet that's something a cop would never report.
	I think that'd be in a lot of trouble.
	All right, look, why don't we take some calls?
	I'd love it.
	And see what the audience has to say about all of this.
	Here we go.
	We'll just punch them up.
	You never know what you're going to get, I'm telling you.
	Maybe it's a man in black, eh?
	You know, are you a Canadian?
	Are you speaking to me?
	Yes.
	No, I'm not.
	You're not.
	But you say, eh, just like a Canadian does.
	Okay.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Jim Keith.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	All right.
	Is my radio causing interference?
	No, I don't hear it.
	Okay.
	But I would prefer you do not have it on in any form when you get on the air.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Should I turn it off now?
	Yes, you should.
	Turn it off.
	All right.
	Hold on.
	Absolutely.
	Everybody, please do that.
	It's impossible to conduct a conversational voice.
	Okay.
	This is Tim in St.
	Louis.
	Yes, Tim.
	I have a couple things just to bring up.
	One is that it seems to me that in just reading ghost stories all throughout my life, it seems like I've heard quite a few references actually to women in black.
	And usually they're purported to be some sort of ghost of a woman who's been deceased or something like that.
	But it does seem like women in black have appeared.
	And something else, the second thing that I'd like... A lot of them are witches, I suspect.
	Maybe.
	But another thing that I'd like to mention is the total preponderance throughout the British Isles of stories of black dogs.
	And their behavior, in animal fashion of course, is almost identical to what I've heard of the behavior of the men in black.
	And let us not forget black cats.
	Yes, but the black dogs are often so much more sinister.
	They'll appear, and you know, you won't even be able to see their eyes or any part of their face, and then suddenly they'll just vanish into mist, you know?
	Yeah, I wouldn't like that.
	Yeah, and supposedly they're, you know, they're familiars of, you know, witches or, you know, necromancers or something like that, so maybe he's men in black or something similar.
	Uh, fair comment, Jim.
	Good point, Tim.
	One thing that what you said reminded me was that trolls and fairies and witches originally were conceived of as being men and women in black.
	They were identical, but as time has gone by and with kind of fantasization, like for instance the work of Shakespeare, they've been turned into other things.
	For instance, fairies now have wings and are tiny.
	But originally, witches and trolls and fairies were pretty much the same breed, and like I said, sometimes details drop out in my memory of my research, but now that I think about it, in Ireland, the fairies were men and women in black.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	That isn't the way I pictured a fairy in Ireland at all.
	Sure.
	Sure, from what I understand it was Shakespeare who turned our heads around about fairies and conceived of them as being kind of sprightly creatures.
	Okay, West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Jim Sheaf.
	Good evening.
	Hi Art, this is Chuck from Fresno.
	Hi Chuck.
	When I was about seven or eight in 1970 or 71 I had no knowledge of men in black at that
	age and I had a dream where two men in black came to my house and took me and my parents
	in a big black car like a Lincoln Continental.
	And they took us to a field that I had never been at at that time and yet later in my life
	that was a place that I would go to a friend's house was near there.
	And there was a corrugated metal warehouse which in that area there actually was a garage
	where this guy had all these old T-Birds.
	And in there it was very dark, very gothic looking and there was a suit of armor in there.
	And then my father was taken to a talking block and an executioner was about to cut
	head off with a really big act.
	What?
	And that's all I remember.
	And you know, my father's fine, and it was a dream.
	It was a dream?
	Yeah, but I had a, when I was younger than that, I was supposed to be 68, I had a sighting that I, you know, I can only say it was a dream, yet I think it was real.
	And I, you know, I have to wonder if that's connected.
	And then in about 88, I had a UFO sighting that I know was real because I had somebody see it.
	But it was a light in the sky, so it can't be anything like that.
	All right.
	Well, then let's translate this to a question for Jim that kind of goes down that alley.
	Jim, are a lot of the men in black sightings, how many of them are ambiguous in the sense that the person after it's over I'm not quite sure whether it was a dream or really happened.
	As surprising as it might be, a minimal number.
	Most of the men in black sightings that I have run across tend to be the ones that people want to talk about or get into print or are very significant and usually the kind of waking dream or the ambiguous ones Don't really get communicated that much.
	So, in fact, the number that has to do with dreaming, in what I have dug out, is minimal.
	Pretty small.
	All right.
	First time caller on the line.
	Oops, you would have been.
	Houston Rockies, you're on the air with Jim Heath.
	Good morning.
	Good morning, Mark.
	This is John from Long Island, New York, again.
	Hi, John.
	I have a question for you, Jeff.
	Where do these men in black come from?
	Well, that's a good question, and I suppose if we had the answer, it would not be a mysterious casebook.
	We'd simply be telling you where they come from.
	We'd be conducting tours there at $15 a pop.
	Yeah, that's right.
	Do you have a best guess?
	Yeah.
	in fact i don't have the uh... i don't have the specific uh...
	call letters of the military operation that is alleged to be uh... a
	fourth of men in black
	uh... encounters but it is it is listed in the book and that is one store
	and then on the other hand the uh... the paranormal
	uh... if you're looking for those guys addresses i think that they cross
	dimensions you know and uh... probably are human and it takes a lot for me to
	admit that that i think they're very uh... address maybe uh... pretty
	tenuous west of the rockies you're on the air with uh...
	uh... jim keith hi Hello.
	Are you a screener?
	No, we don't have a screener, sir.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Turn your radio off, please.
	Okay, the radio is off.
	See, we don't screen calls here.
	Okay, very good.
	I have a question with regard to the foliage in the circles and the other forms that are being drawn in field.
	All right, we are not in open lines right now as you can tell if you're listening.
	I'm listening.
	We have a guess.
	Well, I thought that... No, it's not open line.
	Okay, very good.
	I take that as the answer.
	Thank you.
	Goodbye.
	Okay, take care.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Jim Keith.
	Good evening.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	We're on the air now?
	I hope so.
	Oh, good.
	I've been listening to the Men in Black And I had a question.
	A lot of the stories I hear about this, it's usually they're trying to discourage people from following up on these UFO experiences.
	Yes.
	How often have they followed through on their threats?
	I mean, is there any documented cases where people have been injured?
	And if so, what is the percentage to the number of people who haven't been injured?
	Very, very good question.
	How many documented cases, Jim, that you heard of where there was follow-through?
	You know, I've known of a couple of cases where people were beat up.
	Certainly cases where people were browbeaten and truly harassed verbally.
	As far as murder, I don't recall any cases.
	I don't think I list any in the book.
	Actually, yeah, I just don't think I know of any cases like that.
	Of course, you might not.
	That's true.
	Because as the old saying goes, dead men tell no tales.
	How would anyone know?
	Yes.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Jim Keith.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	So glad to talk to you.
	Let me tell you about something that I saw in the news for me.
	All right.
	Where are you here?
	Oh, I'm in Montgomery, Alabama.
	About 1987, something like that, on a 60-minute program, maybe even 2020, they were conducting
	an interview with a man who the story was about him having cancer because he worked
	at a government plant or contracted plant somewhere in the mid-north and I don't remember
	where.
	Right.
	He was complaining that he had not been told that anything he was working with could create a safety hazard.
	He mentioned something along the lines of EMI or energy transmission device, something like that.
	While he's talking, there's a picture in a picture, top left hand corner.
	It's on for one or two seconds.
	It's a photograph taken from a telephoto lens showing It's a boomerang shape.
	It's not as wide as a boomerang, okay?
	But it's a boomerang shape.
	A little narrower.
	Yes.
	And it's luminescent.
	Yes.
	There's two helicopters carrying it.
	It's one on each side of it.
	And I don't know how wide a helicopter, you know, fan is or anything.
	But there's two helicopters carrying it, and it's a still photo.
	It was up there for two seconds.
	Okay?
	Everybody is paying attention to what the man's saying, and I'm looking at the television screen going, What is that?
	We don't have any of those.
	I wonder if this is not part of some of these aircraft that are being seen.
	Perhaps not the whole craft, but part of it.
	Because it was literally luminescent.
	It wasn't gleaming like chrome or anything like that, and it was a daylight photo.
	Does this in any way relate to the men in black?
	Point being is, there was no news coverage, there was no mention of it, I couldn't find anybody else that had seen it, and I certainly did wonder if the men in black did not pay a visit that very day, and maybe even make a telephone call first.
	You better have it ready when we get there.
	Would that be a reason why you would not hear anything?
	If you see something like that, that you've never seen before, Well, the aurora comes to mind, but I don't know what the aurora looks like.
	Well, here's a theory, and let's run this by Jim.
	Jim, could it be that the men in black don't show up when you get stories that sort of add to the lore and whoever it is that's controlling all this, you know, doesn't mind.
	They virtually want it out.
	But when somebody really gets close to something that's real, Then the men in black show up.
	Could that be?
	Good caller.
	All right.
	We'll be right back.
	We're going to break here at the top of the hour and I'll tell you what I would like after the top of the hour.
	I am going to screen some calls now and I want only those of you who have encountered men in black to call.
	And ask and ye shall receive.
	I said only calls now from people who have actually encountered a man in black.
	And lo and behold, The phone lines are full now of nothing but.
	And normally I would go to commercial now and get those out of the way, but instead I've got a caller on a cell phone way out there someplace or another.
	So Jim, I'm going to quickly bring him online.
	And caller, you're on the air.
	Where are you calling from?
	This is Greg Hankrich.
	How are you doing?
	Fine, Greg.
	What's going on?
	A number of years ago, I was a nurse at the University of Utah down in Salt Lake City.
	I worked on the med-surgical floor up there.
	One weekend, I happened to be taking care of a patient.
	Are you familiar with Dugway Proving Grounds?
	I am.
	I was taking care of a patient.
	I imagine he must have been Army.
	He had short crop hair.
	He had broken his leg while out at Dugway Working with something that he didn't want to talk about.
	And, you know, me, I'm kind of nosy.
	I would try to get it out of him, never did.
	Sure.
	So, uh, anyways, that day, he knew he was going to be transferred.
	That day, two guys show up.
	Now, they weren't wearing sunglasses, but they were wearing suits.
	And they were rather intimidating looking individuals.
	Uh, but they came to pick him up.
	Now, you would have figured, Segway, Army, you know, they would have been Army corpsmen or something like that.
	But these guys show up.
	They're in suits, civilian clothing.
	They wouldn't say where they were taking them.
	As a matter of fact, you know, at hospitals, when you transfer a patient, this is what I thought was really peculiar, you normally will give copies of records, for example, along with the patient.
	Medical records, yes.
	Right.
	They refused to allow the originals to remain at the facility.
	As a matter of fact, they would not leave the nursing floor with the patient.
	They kept them on a gurney.
	Until they talked with my nurse manager, and they pulled her off to the side, and next thing you know, she handed him the records, and he was gone, and just disappeared, you know?
	Gone.
	Nobody knew where he was going, put the records, he had no records of him ever being there.
	Alright, so, medical men in black.
	Yeah, so there's a good example of your basic governmentally connected men in black.
	That's one of the major categories.
	You know, if you'd like, Art, I've got a pretty cool Dugway Proving Ground story.
	All right.
	Coming up after the commercial break, all right?
	Let me go ahead and do that.
	I wanted to let him tell that story because he was on cellular from Alaska.
	It's kind of tangential to the Men in Black in that it has to do with government cover-up, specifically at Dugway, and it also has to do with cattle mutilation.
	Usually when we hear media representations of cattle mutilation, They're always connected to UFOs.
	Generally.
	But in fact, in terms of my research, it seems that black helicopters are just as often observed during these incidents.
	That is true.
	Yeah.
	Now, I'm not saying there's not a paranormal element, but there are clues to another thing here, which is government involvement.
	It's been found that many mutilated cattle have nicotine in their bloodstreams.
	Excuse me?
	Nicotine?
	Nicotine.
	And what that is, is the most common ingredient that is used in tranquilizer guns.
	And also, many of these cattle have been marked with fluorescent paint, apparently for identification.
	Wait, wait, wait.
	Nicotine, I always thought nicotine increased heart rate, increased, was kind of like a cup of coffee.
	Well, I've told them that nicotine is used in tranquilizer guns.
	I'll be darned.
	I'm not an expert on it.
	Okay.
	But they've been marked with fluorescent paint, but also, it's been found that a lot of these cattle have been infected with Clostridium bacteria.
	Have you heard that, Mark?
	No, what is that?
	Okay.
	Clostridium is a bio-warfare agent that the CIA has admitted to stockpiling.
	Oh, great.
	Yeah.
	And the most, along with this, the most horrific thing that I know about the mutilation came from workers at Dugway.
	And that is that they stated that cattle have been used in the testing of a specifically anti-ethnic warfare agent.
	It's due to a similarity in the membrane of the cow's eye, and that comes from real guys at Dugway.
	Anti-ethnic?
	Anti-ethnic.
	Specifically, an anti-oriental bio-warfare agent.
	You know, it's interesting you should say that, because I've got a fax here that says, Art, you may have covered this already, but I've read that most men in black are of Asian origin.
	A lot of them are, or a lot of them look Asian.
	I don't necessarily think that they're Orientals, because there are other factors involved here, too.
	Many of them have very long fingers, elongated faces, their temperatures are cold, but indeed, that Oriental or even Tahitian feature is a very common element in many black stories.
	Well, I suppose that anything that would describe a being or a person with slitted or slanted eyes might be described by most people in a generalized way as oriental.
	It could be.
	It could be.
	First time caller line, you're on the air with Jim Keith.
	Hi!
	Hi!
	This is Gina from Sacramento.
	Hello, Gina.
	Hi, and thank you for your service.
	Sure.
	I love it.
	Anyway, I wanted to tell you a strange story.
	I was in the midst of starting up my own little contact-free support group back in 1991.
	Your phone is breaking up on us a little, honey.
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	Are you going to be able to deal with it?
	I think so.
	Okay, I'm sorry.
	We just moved and it's not the best right now.
	But I'll go ahead and make my phone call short.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Anyway, I was starting my own group and I was living with my ex-husband in some small cottages in our midtown area.
	And one very early morning, just after my husband left for work, I was in that kind of state of twilight consciousness.
	Sure.
	And a very sudden paralysis came over me.
	I fought it with everything I could and before my eyes, We could finally get open.
	I just, out of the corner of my eyes, saw a very tall, whitish-gray man with these bright red, looks like painted lips.
	And the suit was jet black and there was a very tall, black top hat.
	It reminded me of a very tall cowboy hat.
	I don't recall any eyes.
	That sitting in my rocking chair is where he decided to seat himself and with a sinister grin, his arms stretched out and pulled out like the strange clown face and said, this is who I am.
	And I said, whoa, to myself, I'm going, wait a minute, get out of this bad dream you're in.
	I hear you.
	And I just had to composure myself and I said, get out of my room.
	Get out of my room.
	You don't belong here and I don't want you ever coming back.
	And?
	And before I knew it, the arm stretched back and snapped into its normal shape and the face was gone.
	And the man just looked at me again in this strange face and said, you'll never know and you'll never tell.
	And I said again, get out of my room, get out of my room, and it stood up before me.
	It went in a counter-clockwise spin into my hardwood floor until it was gone.
	Oh my gosh.
	I have no idea if this is a real MIB experience or if I was just having a very bizarre dream.
	Well, let us... I had never heard of MIBs before this happened.
	Alright, let us ask the man who wrote the book.
	You know, as an example of that, this is really an archetype that goes a ways back.
	In the Macumba religion, which is closely related to voodoo, the men in black are very, very close to a couple of presiding spirits, or they call them saints.
	and one is known as Omnilu or Old Black and he dresses in black and he sides with evil
	in his battle for the earth and he prefers to hang out in cemeteries.
	The other spirit in this ancient African religion is called Exu and he also is associated with
	black magic and wears a black suit and a top hat and he likes to hang out at crossroads
	which in terms of ancient mythology and in terms of cultism, crossroads are well known
	as being sites that are very pregnant in terms of paranormal manifestation.
	Yes, that is correct.
	But that lady?
	What she saw, the way it disappeared, the paranormal.
	We know everything about men in black in their paranormal manifestations.
	And it gets us nowhere.
	I mean, they might as well be an unknown species that we only cross paths with occasionally, like, for instance, Bigfoot, or I believe the panda was believed to be mythological until the turn of this century.
	We know everything about them, and yet we can't begin to say what they are.
	And yet, you remember the early description she said of the face?
	No lips?
	Right.
	Lipstick painted on?
	Mm-hmm.
	Those stories that they wish to allow out, to allow a myth to grow, that is not harmful to what's really going on, they allow out.
	Mm-hmm.
	However, when somebody stumbles into the real thing, then these guys show up.
	Yeah, and you know, I'm thinking that just, you know, this has never occurred to me, but I'm thinking that the UFO-connected men in black are probably more frequently the government contact, whereas simple manifestations of these strange darklings who just scare the wits out of you may be more closely linked to the paranormal.
	East of the Rockies, you're on air with Jim Keith, good morning.
	Hello there.
	Yes, me.
	Turn your radio off, please, ma'am.
	It's not on.
	Okay, then, whatever's in the background, please quiet it down.
	Could you be quiet for a minute?
	Just a minute.
	Thank you.
	Okay, this is Sue from Fort Ebbert, New York.
	All right.
	Hiya, I love your show.
	Thank you.
	I thought I had coined the phrase, the men in black.
	I've been saying this since 1970.
	I had worked in an electronics, a growing electronics plant out in Boston.
	And the engineer that I was working with was given this device brought in from, should I tell you the name of the company?
	Sure.
	Bendix.
	I remember Bendix.
	Do you remember Bendix?
	Sure I do.
	Okay.
	Well, John, the head engineer, had worked on this device for like six months.
	I don't know what he was doing.
	But at the end they had me work with him for the delicate work putting this thing together.
	Yes.
	All of a sudden, it was done, it was tested, and these three men in black came.
	And they were falling, and you should have seen, I mean, everyone was running when they come in, and they took everything that we had done, all our work, our blueprints, this mechanism, and they left.
	And so I asked John after, I said, John, who were these men in black?
	And they told us this device that we had worked on was for fuel getting over 50 miles or better.
	A fuel consumption on cars.
	Ah, petroleum men in black.
	Yeah!
	I've been coining this phrase, the men in black took it away, you know, for years now.
	Alright, well here's one that's not so funny.
	Jim, when Nikola Tesla passed, there were men who showed up and confiscated every scrap of his work and his records and they disappeared Like that!
	You're aware of that story?
	I've heard it, yes.
	Uh-huh.
	Think that sounds like something, uh, that you would attribute to the men in black?
	It sounds pretty, it sounds pretty darn governmental and, and, you know, just wearing a, uh, I have a friend who, who spoke about, about wearing, uh, black suits and dressing in mirrored sunglasses.
	He was also bald and he said that, uh, when he walked through the grocery store aisle that people stepped out of the way.
	So there is something daunting just about that look.
	Um, it sounds, like I said, I think there's both the governmental and the paranormal connection.
	Gotcha.
	Alright.
	Back in a moment, this is CBC.
	Um, this is very interesting, um, and I want you to hear it, uh, Jim.
	This is from, uh, SciTech's Ed Dames, a well-known remote viewer.
	With regard to the Dugway Proving Ground incident, he says, for individuals with certain classes of security clearances, anesthesia ...may not be administered except under strictly... ...under strictly controlled conditions if an unclear doctor operates on such an individual.
	The doctor is subject to being debriefed by representatives, spooks, debriefed by rep agencies, who need not unbrief by themselves.
	Other abuse, who need not be eased and seized.
	Bad other abuse, who need not be eased and seized.
	You have to sign an official inadvertent disclosure statement.
	In other words, you will never repeat.
	In other words, you imprisonment.
	No kidding!
	If the patient happened to disclose classified information, when under an aside, Uh, men in black kind of deal, huh?
	You know, in fact, I ran across some documentation on that just a few days ago.
	I'm currently working on a book about mind control operations in the United States, and I read a declassified CIA memo that talked about anesthesia should not be used on agents when they had operations or whatever.
	I don't remember the whole of it, but it's I seem to go right along with that.
	There you are.
	Alright, and this one coming from Wayne Green, who publishes 73 Magazine, and could have come from Ed Daines.
	It says, Hi all.
	It sounds as if my explanation for the Men in Black, May 29th program, is holding up.
	I proposed they are a clean-up crew from the future, sent back to change anything that has changed the future.
	Wayne Green.
	Take that from a different angle.
	Perhaps they're a cleanup crew from the present, in the sense that time may be an illusion.
	And like I was saying, perhaps when people react to the trauma of a UFO encounter or some kind of a traumatic event, that is externalized to clean up their neurological situation, to reject that horror out into the environment.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Jim Keith.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	All I want to say is that I'm in California.
	All right.
	About two years ago, I suffered an episode of missing time.
	I was out after I got off work late at night, and I was stopped at a red light.
	And then the next thing I knew, I was 20 miles away and an hour had passed.
	And at the time, I didn't know anything about missing time or anything like that.
	So I just kind of let it go.
	About a week later, I was out and I'd stopped at a gas station and was getting gas.
	Again, it was at night.
	And I just remember this man being very tall and in a nice black suit walked up to me and told me that I was going to give him a ride.
	And I said, no, I don't want to give you a ride.
	Why don't you ask another man for a ride?
	And he kept saying, no, you're going to give me a ride.
	So I quickly put my gas cap back on, went around and got in the driver's side of the car and I thought the passenger side was locked, but when I got in the car he was already in the car.
	And he pulled me in and I started to scream and he told me if I kept screaming that he would kill me.
	That he just wanted me to drive him around.
	So I proceeded to drive and he kept telling me, nothing has happened to you.
	You won't remember anything.
	And I ran a stop sign, and he looked over at me and said, I know what you're trying to do, and if the police pull us over, I will immediately kill you.
	And he just kept repeating, nothing happened to you, nothing happened, you'll never tell anybody, nothing happened.
	Then we got out in the middle of nowhere, I'm still shook up about this, I'm afraid as I talk about it, he got out of the car, and he looked at me, and I'll never forget, it's like his eyes weren't there, and he said, leave now, Because I don't want to hurt you.
	I drove away.
	I started to cry after I got away from him and I got back into town and I drove around town until I found a police officer.
	When the police officer got to me I was broke up and told him and the police were already looking for me because the clerk at the liquor store had seen the man get in my car and heard him scream.
	They were looking for me in my car and a man in a black suit that had gotten in my car.
	Holy smokes!
	Did they ever find him?
	No.
	No, no, no.
	And it's a very small town that I live in.
	That's why I don't want to say where I'm at.
	I hear you.
	They never found him.
	Never.
	And he's never been seen again.
	But I've had instances, I won't even drive at night anymore, where a black automobile has came up behind me and been flashing its lights, wanting me to pull over, it seems like, and I just get home as fast as I can.
	I won't even drive anymore.
	I've sent, this has happened, I'm diagnosed with agoraphobia where I will not leave my house.
	I will not leave my house unless someone's with me.
	I can't say that I blame you.
	Jim, have you ever heard a story like that?
	It sounds pretty classic.
	In fact, I've heard stories just like that.
	Yeah, I thought I was going crazy.
	Yeah, I've heard stories just like that, actually.
	Alright, well caller, I don't know what to tell you.
	But I might react as you have.
	I might not be going out a lot of times.
	Do you think that he did this to me because of the episode of Missing Time?
	Oh, now there's an intriguing question.
	Jim?
	Well, you know, Missing Time can go both ways.
	It can be an anomalous event, a kind of a paranormal twisting of time, but at the same time, You know, there are such things as government mind control programs and there are, I believe it's Halpidol, is the drug that specifically in overdose gives incidence of missing time.
	So lacking any further data, it's really hard to say if we're looking at paranormality or just massive arrogance of an agent.
	But could it relate to the missing time incident?
	Sure.
	Sure, sure, good.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Jim Keith.
	Hello.
	Uh, this is Bob from Baytown.
	Hello, Bob.
	Um, this is, this happened to me about, oh, I'm not real sure, but it could be three or four years ago now.
	Yes.
	Um, but y'all were talking about, you've never seen their eyes.
	Well, me and a couple of my friends did see their eyes.
	And they're, the, the, what's so funny about it is, or weird, Before we saw these guys in Men in Black, or as they'll call them, we all saw something that was really strange.
	We were going out, and we were going down this road nearby, and we saw a police helicopter, you know, flashing its light on the ground, looking for maybe someone who broke into a house or a drug deal.
	Sure, sure.
	And there was a bunch of us and they were in different automobiles.
	But we all, the light was real long so we were all going, look, they're going, you know,
	the cop got someone, you know.
	Because the light had stopped at some point.
	And we kept watching this going through all these lights because it was way down the road
	from us.
	And you know we were going, oh crud, they're going to stop us or keep us from going to
	where we were trying to get to.
	Anyway, there was, the light stopped and it was pointing down at the ground.
	We all said, well they got him, you know.
	And then the light turned off and the next thing we know we're at another stop watching
	this police helicopter, which we thought it was.
	And most of us still sort of think it might have been, but it couldn't have been because when it decided to leave, it just, I mean, oof, it was gone.
	I mean, it zipped.
	I mean, it was gone and nothing flat.
	I mean, you couldn't even track it.
	Okay, but you said you saw eyes.
	Yeah, this is where we're getting to.
	Well, we got to the place where we were going and it was a club we were going to and we were all inside.
	We hadn't been there in 20 minutes when a friend of mine tapped me on the shoulder going, look, you know, because we were all standing there watching to see if anybody came in or a friend.
	There came in four guys dressed in black suits.
	Yes.
	And this doesn't make any sense.
	This is here in Texas at a, it was at a bar.
	And there were four guys in black suits, and we hadn't been drinking at all of us yet, but it was so weird because they came in, they were dressed in black suits, and they had sunglasses on.
	Well, you don't walk into a club with sunglasses on at night.
	Right.
	You know, they don't want you to, you know, hurt, fall over, or something like that.
	Right.
	Well, the bouncer told them to take their sunglasses off.
	Well, these guys did.
	When we finally noticed that they were sort of dogs, and I mean all of us, anytime we walked around the barn, they were, you know, maybe 10 feet away or 5 feet away every time we moved around the barn.
	And their eyes, what about their eyes?
	They're, you know, that weird gray looking color.
	It has black, you know, on the outer part, and then there's a real light gray or blue gray.
	Yeah.
	They're all not the same height or the same look, the same.
	But all with the same eyes?
	All with the same eyes.
	All right.
	Jim, is that consistent with the stories you've heard?
	These guys are really charming, you have to admit, Hart.
	The details on the Men in Black vary, and they vary in very strange ways.
	Sometimes the Men in Black almost switch into comedy.
	Sometimes it's horror.
	But again, you get these consistent details, and the weird eyes is one of those details.
	Oftentimes they have oriental eyes.
	I know of cases, or a case, where the person described talking to this man with kind of
	bug eyes and as he talked his eyes seemed to extend two inches out of the socket
	Yeah, there are yeah, the the weird eyes is is a continuing detail. I would not like that
	Why do you think Jim that a subject that you have written seriously about
	and that I am now amazed with you know I said people who have actually seen a man in black call
	and Were flooded with calls serious calls people who are not
	laughing and they have produced a motion picture now That is a comedy called men in black
	Why do you think they would choose this time, that subject, to You know, I don't really want to slip over into paranoia and say it's a big cover-up, and so my tendency is to say that, well, it was taken from a comic book.
	In fact, this Men in Black movie started out as a comic book, and I think they were just playing quite loose with the idea of Men in Black, and perhaps really didn't know anything about the Men in Black.
	Now, if they had made, let's say, a case for government mind-control operations, or a case for a government cover-up. Perhaps it would have
	been a little bit harder to obtain the financing, but as to whether anything sinister
	shaped the film to begin with, probably not.
	Okay.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Jim Keith.
	Good morning.
	Good morning, Art.
	Um, good morning, Jim.
	Where are you, ma'am?
	Um, my name's Roxanne, and I'm in Napa County, and I actually faxed you this because I wasn't sure I'd be able to get on tonight.
	Alright.
	Um, but I'd rather you know it.
	Oh, I've got your fax in my hand.
	Oh, okay.
	I wasn't even sure that was the right number.
	Uh, no, you made it.
	It says, Art, this happened.
	Yes.
	Uh-huh.
	Alright, why don't you go ahead and tell the story, because I was prepared to read it on the air, but I'd rather hear it from you.
	Okay, let me tell you too that my heart's beating fast whenever I repeat this story.
	Um, I've told very few people in my lifetime because I know what the reaction would be.
	And then when I did, I'm 41 now, and when I told, uh, someone who I thought was an intellectual about this a couple years ago, they tried to justify it as being an act of child molestation that I didn't want to remember, so I was creating the men in black.
	But what it is, is this.
	I was about six.
	My sister was almost nine years old, and we were playing in the backyard.
	We lived in this big Dutch colonial house, two-story in San Francisco, and my mother's from England.
	She had an English accent.
	My sister and I were in the backyard playing, and I had a favorite tree that I would climb.
	It had a smooth spot for me sitting in it so much.
	And I would climb up there, and just with my thoughts, and sometimes just talk out loud to the tree.
	I even named the tree.
	So I was up there, and my sister was picking flowers.
	She was more of a lady.
	I was more of a tomboy.
	And then I sort of lost track of what she was doing because I was swinging on the tree.
	It was pretty high, well for a kid.
	And then I could barely hear my mom's voice coming from the patio outside of the backyard.
	It was a huge house we're talking about.
	Right.
	And I heard my mom saying that, you know, calling out, Roxanne, Denise, dinner time!
	And so I sort of started running to the back door and I said, I'll get Denise.
	And I ran back to tell Denise that it was dinner time and she wasn't in the backyard anymore.
	And so, I thought, well, maybe she wanted to do something naughty.
	We're not supposed to go over that fence, because there's an empty lot behind it, and it was Kitty Corner.
	I guess that's what you would call it, because the house next door was really, really over our backyard fence, so the next house over was an empty lot.
	I mean, the next space over was an empty lot, full of grass.
	When I... Sorry.
	When I jumped up on the fence, I was standing on a 2x4 and stretching with all my might to see over it, to see if she'd gone over there.
	Yes.
	Because we were afraid of snakes and such.
	My sister was laying down and two men were there and one was bent all the way down on his knees and my sister's head was limp in his lap.
	My sister was laying down and she was not conscious.
	She was not awake.
	And the other man was bent down over her with a syringe.
	And when I have told the story, I leave out the syringe because I think people are going to think I'm nuts if I go that far.
	No, give it to us straight.
	Okay.
	The man had a syringe and he held it to my sister's arm and I was literally shocked into silence at first because I could not believe what I was seeing because of the way they were dressed.
	They were dressed in black pants.
	These men weren't wearing black jackets, they were wearing black capes, which I've also changed into my story and I say jacket.
	They were capes.
	They had Zorro-type hats.
	Which I later learned, because when I got older, I saw Zorro.
	Now, when he was about to give my sister the injection, I screamed her name as loud as I could.
	And then I thought I should go get my mother, because they wouldn't leave her alone, and I was screaming.
	I'm going, leave my sister alone!
	And then I started crying.
	And then I slipped off the fence, and I got a million slivers in my palm, which, you know, I didn't even feel at the time, and started running for my mother, but I fell down in the flower bed, the brick flower bed that we had.
	And then my instincts told me to save my sister, because my instincts told me I didn't have time to get my mother.
	Right.
	So I jumped up on that fence, and I'd never been able to get that high before.
	And the men were gone.
	My sister was waking up.
	And I asked her, Denise, what were they doing to you and why?
	And who were they?
	And I'm freaking out.
	And I'm, you know, just a six-year-old kid.
	And she said, what are you talking about?
	And she said, what's the matter with you?
	You look scared to death.
	You're all white!
	And I said, and I told her what had happened to her, and she said, oh, brother.
	And she started climbing over the fence, and she started coming with me, and she was groggy, very tired, as if she'd just woken up.
	And then I went in the house, I didn't tell my mother, because she would have been scared to death, but I did tell my father.
	My father believed me.
	My father always believes all of us.
	There's seven kids in my family.
	And I want to know something.
	You know, I know damn well this was not something I created in my head as a cover-up for my seeing my sister molested.
	Because I know what molestation is.
	Yes.
	So what was going on?
	I never forget this.
	I can still see it to this day.
	I can see the color of the grass.
	It's obvious from the way you tell it.
	There's no doubt about that.
	Jim, is that one you've never heard?
	Well, what I was going to say is that her account is very credible to me because of the wealth of detail.
	When people are making up stories, they usually don't inject that kind of detail.
	But no, that is not one that I've heard, but there are some truly remarkable details.
	And that's the thing about the Men in Black, is the details are often varied.
	You know what I'm reminded of?
	...with her story, is this is the kind of stuff that's really been going on forever.
	And, for instance, back in the 1600s, I've got a quote here that says... I'll tell you what.
	Hold that quote for the... after the top of the hour.
	We can obviously keep on truckin' here.
	Boy, I never had any idea we'd get so many stories like this.
	Holy mackerel!
	Sounds like to me we should write another book.
	Hang tight, Jim.
	We'll be back.
	We will be back.
	This is CBC.
	You've got to see it.
	You wouldn't want to meet it, but you've got to see it.
	It's on my website now.
	It looks like... a creature of some kind.
	My website is www.artbell.com Take a look.
	Let me know.
	Art, what if the Men in Black are the time travelers we never hear about?
	They would certainly have the technology to perform these feats that they're credited with, as well as what better way to know what events would have the greatest impact and would require some sort of intervention.
	Just think about it.
	The earliest reports are from the 1500s, and there is a consistency in their reported behavior.
	Now, the man who wrote the book on the Men in Black, the real book, the serious book, This is Jim Keith, and he's my guest.
	Jim, how do people get your book?
	Well, the simplest way would be to make a phone call, and that is to order Casebook of the Men in Black.
	It costs $14.95.
	Call 1-800-680-INET, I-N-E-T.
	Call 1-800-680-INET, I-N-E-T. That is 1-800-680-4638.
	Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Ah, you're a fast study.
	Good.
	All right.
	Men in Black.
	A wild card line.
	You're on the air with Jim Keith.
	Good evening.
	Hello.
	Whatever.
	Where are you?
	My name is Steve.
	I'm calling from Portland.
	Yes, Steve.
	Yes, and my grandmother used to scare us.
	I grew up on a ranch in Colorado.
	She used to scare us with a story about the men in black that came when her grandfather died.
	You'll have to excuse me.
	I'm a little bit nervous.
	That's quite all right.
	Her grandfather belonged to a benevolent order.
	Not the Masons, but another.
	Not very large, but still a significant benevolent order.
	I don't really want to mention them.
	When he died, he always paid his dues.
	My grandmother said they dressed him up like Dracula.
	He had a little sash around his neck.
	He worked in magnetics and one of his hobbies was learning how to use hypnotism and magnetics to heal people.
	When he died, after the Grapefruit Ceremony, they ushered the family away.
	She said that the men in black came.
	They, after the ceremony, the graveside ceremony, they ushered the family away and she said that the men in black came and they took the brooch from him and they also, he gave his papers to them before he died on what he was working about.
	Are you, you're saying brooch, do you mean broach?
	Broach, yes.
	Broach, alright.
	I'm sorry, my grandmother called it a brooch.
	That's quite alright.
	She said that her grandfather had joked that if you stared into it, it would steal your soul.
	In order to keep us in line, she would scare us and tell us that men in black would come and snatch our souls if we didn't behave.
	Is that something that sounds like it has a ring of truth in it, or was that just a story?
	Well, I don't know.
	I mean, it sounds like you have a soul, so you must have behaved yourself.
	Oh, yes.
	Is that myth you've heard, Jim?
	You know, it relates to some things I've heard, or speculated.
	I don't know if I heard them exactly.
	One speculation is that the Men in Black do have connections to a cultic or secret society or, as you said, a benevolent brotherhood, but there are connections to that.
	For instance, it's been suggested that at least some of the Men in Black are agents of the Vatican and that they are trying to stop speculation and talk and so forth about supernatural occurrences that aren't of Oh, I tell you, Catholicism and the Vatican, these are very, very strange...
	A secretive things.
	I interview Malachi Martin.
	If you've heard the show, I'm sure you've heard me interview Malachi.
	I'm familiar with Mr. Martin.
	There is a secret society, a secret Catholic society called the Knights of the Apocalypse that was founded in the late 1600s and its whole purpose is to combat the Antichrist.
	Now, they may see UFOs as being agents of the Antichrist.
	So, indeed, this is another thread, this kind of secret society thread.
	The Knights of the Apocalypse?
	Exactly.
	Wow!
	In my last interview with Father Martin, he's very well connected in the Vatican, as advised to Popes.
	And there is a seven-mile labyrinth of secret material below the Vatican.
	Father Martin tells me that if I wish to contact him, because I'm going to Rome in October, and I've been sitting here contemplating ever since whether I really want to enter such a secret area beneath the Vatican.
	I may or may not do it.
	Depends on how adventuresome I feel.
	That's for real, Jim.
	I know.
	I know.
	I edited a book several years ago.
	No, I edited a press.
	I edited a book several years ago called The Press and one of the things I received from
	an anonymous benefactor was a lot of information about the history of this planet starting
	in the Middle Ages again and coming right up to the present, to the Middle Ages again.
	A man who alleged himself to have had access to the archives and to substantiate that,
	he put the imprint of a brooch that listed him as a member of the Franciscan Order and
	It was a credential that he would use in the Vatican.
	I'm always willing to give an advertisement for one of my books.
	I understand.
	Well, to the Rockies, you're on there with Jim Heath.
	Good morning, actually.
	Good morning.
	My name is Cougar.
	Good morning, actually.
	Good morning.
	In Tigard, Oregon.
	All right.
	First of all, I have a couple of questions.
	I was referred to by a person who thought that you could help me out.
	I've been looking for a long time to find someone who could help me get to a UFO group, talk thing, help them talk about what happened, or a hippotist.
	But I was told the hippocampus costs a lot of money, and I don't have a lot of money, and I want to take, um, because I remember a lot of stuff consciously, but there's also a lot of stuff I know happens that I don't remember anything about it.
	All right.
	Does any of it involve the Men in Black?
	Yes, it does.
	In what way?
	Um, well, there was, um, in the Tigard Woods, the Tigard Woods on the railroad tracks, um, me and about three or four other people were living on the streets four summers ago, and we had tents.
	We had two tents, and we lived in the woods there, And we had some weird events happen for the past two, three nights.
	Uh, the first of all, it passed off as a humongous red-masked-orange ball of light, hit diagonally, and made of light now, once it hit the ground, and I'm talking light now, once it hit the ground, and everywhere, and it made no sound.
	And then, about, and then everybody decided to go back to sleep.
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	weird because I was seeing something that bright.
	It was a little bit weird because it would kind of make us wake up.
	Sure.
	And kind of make us woke up because I heard some footsteps to make us, and leaves crunching
	and twigs snapping.
	Yes.
	So I woke up Tom.
	And I, he woke up and I said, did you hear that?
	He said, no.
	I said, what are you hearing?
	He basically was awake, but he was asleep when he was talking to me.
	I understand.
	And he said, just go back to sleep.
	And then it happened again and it got loud and then it brushed against the tent.
	And?
	The noise.
	Yes.
	They, they, the, the, what, sigh.
	Brushed against the tent.
	And why would you think this would be a man in black?
	Well, no, this is, this is, this is.
	I think this would.
	You know, this is the.
	All right, well, we don't have a lot of twink.
	This would.
	You know.
	Be the man in black.
	Well, I, I, okay, well, you have to skip all that part, and the tiger, um, we, uh, we're tigered, uh, tigered, um, we, uh, we, uh, we're tigered, uh, tigered, um, we, uh, we, uh, we're tigered, uh, tigered, um, Well, I mean, you could not even see through the mirror thing.
	It was like a mirror glass for them to see through.
	It was just like a reflection of you.
	It didn't show anything inside.
	It was all black.
	And it was painted.
	The black had no markings.
	And it was painted.
	There would be also people in black and black, dark black, short sunglasses and nice ties and everything, but all black.
	And they were taking pictures of The people who were involved, what happened?
	But I don't know how they know that happened, because the only people know is now you, my mom, and the people who it happened with, my brother.
	Alright, well I appreciate the story.
	Men in Black, Men in Black.
	He mentioned Mir.
	Somebody sent me a message earlier in the day, this is totally unrelated, with accounts for the accident to the Mir space station.
	Uh, there was, uh, there's a sign up there somewhere that says, uh, objects, uh, in the mirror, uh, appear to be closer, uh, may be closer than they appear to be.
	Chuckie's in the accident at the mirror.
	First time going to Chuckie's in the accident at the mirror.
	He died.
	Hey, Art, how you doing?
	Um, well, I'm alright.
	Well, I listen to you religiously every night on my way home from work at 4 a.m.
	here in, uh, Oklahoma.
	And, uh, I've been waiting for this Men in Black episode.
	Alright, well, here we are.
	In 1984, I was, I guess in third grade, I was eight.
	And I'm a young one, so.
	We lived in White Sands, Little Ridge.
	Right.
	On the base.
	Right.
	My dad, my stepfather, was a photographer for the Army there, and my mom worked in some place through I-Security.
	I really have no idea what she did in there.
	And one day we were out cooking out in the backyard and I had a tetherball hanging out
	there and I was beating the tetherball around and my stepfather was cooking steaks.
	And if you know anything about White Sands, the houses are like right next to the mountain
	and the mountain range is right there in the Rockies.
	And it was about 530 at night, 630 at night, something like that.
	It was right before dusk and a couple hours before dusk and during the summer.
	And a white light started from the left side of the mountains and ran towards the right
	I guess it went from south to north.
	And then stopped and shot in the middle of the mountains.
	On the other, on the Las Cruces side of the mountains.
	Well, we, I mean, our neighbors had even seen it.
	Because everybody was cooking out that day.
	It was kind of one of those days.
	And my mom ran in and called the military police.
	And they, she came back saying that the person was kind of rude and really fast talking.
	She said they'd been flooded with calls about this.
	And that thousands of people from Las Cruces had even called in wondering about this, because there's always some kind of test thing going on.
	Massive sighting.
	And they said, no, don't worry about it.
	You know, it's probably nothing.
	About an hour later, there's a mountain road.
	It's a mountain pass road that goes right over the mountain.
	Yes.
	And it just leads all the way up and goes down the other side.
	We saw a caravan of trucks, a big flatbed truck, and little vans and things like that, Army, of course, coming from the base.
	It goes over the pass.
	And an hour after that it came back and there was something on the flatbed truck under a cover.
	And you can see all of this from, you know, it's a really small place White Sands is.
	It's right next to the road and everything.
	So they had it whatever it was?
	Yeah, whatever, I have no idea what it was.
	And then I was playing tetherball later that night right before it got dark and we had already eaten and everything.
	And I looked inside and my mom and my dad were talking to a man in a black suit with a black tie.
	And this other guy was in an army suit.
	No.
	He was in, I can't remember whether it was BDU's or whether it was Dress Green's.
	But I remember he was in, it reminded me of something out of like a 50's sci-fi movie.
	You know?
	And it was like an escort or something.
	And I just remember them sitting on the couch in our living room talking.
	And I could see them through the back window.
	And I was playing tetherball.
	I could, I mean, it was like the big thing at my school.
	I didn't care, I was just playing tetherball.
	And I don't know, My mom was really freaked out about the light and everything.
	She always would talk to me, she was talking to me that whole night about it.
	And they came back out and I was like, who are those people?
	And my mom's like, oh, some people I work with.
	And then she goes, she was talking about it and she goes, that light was just another one of the war games that they're playing on the mountains.
	And which they do about every weekend.
	So you're suggesting that was your experience, your family's experience with men in black?
	Yeah.
	This light was not a war game.
	I'm sorry.
	I've seen war games.
	My dad was a military police.
	I understand.
	All right.
	Well, again, that's fairly typical, I guess, Jim, when something unusual happens, something that might be related to military.
	This clearly, at White Sands, probably was related to some secret thing or another.
	And they come around and visit you.
	Yeah, you know, I do believe that I believe there is something of an ultra-terrestrial nature in terms of flying saucers and in terms of aliens.
	I don't think there's any proof that it's extra-terrestrial, but I think there is a paranormal aspect, as I keep repeating, like the men in black.
	But I also think the government has an interest in covering up the secret things that they're doing and covering up their advanced technology.
	And part of that is by putting out information that suggests that all UFOs are extraterrestrials, and having people think of these kind of exotic craft only in terms of bug-eyed aliens.
	Well, again, if you wanted to silence somebody, you're not going to wear a loud sport coat and a striped tie and arrive in an orange car, dark, black, Silence.
	Scary.
	That intimidates.
	Right.
	There's simply no question about it.
	What is your next book, Jim?
	I'm working on a book about mind control right now.
	It's called Mind Control, World Control, and it deals specifically with long-term projects by the CIA, such as MKUltra, involved in manipulating people and so forth.
	And really a history of mind control in this world going back to early experiments around the turn of this century and up to the present and trying to delve into what is true and what is falsification and rumor.
	Yup, the difference between truth and myth.
	Alright, hang tight, we'll be right back, Jim.
	For my comfort level, Jim, why are we getting so much response?
	You know, I'm very impressed by the quality of response in terms of people who have called in almost one for one.
	They sound credible and spooky and I'm very impressed as well.
	I mean, I'm surprised and thinking about this...
	If a survey was done, there must be hundreds of thousands of stories about men in black around the world.
	I mean, I personally had no idea that there were so many encounters.
	I'm still trying to contemplate the nights of the apocalypse.
	Alright, first time caller on the line, you're on there with Jim Chief.
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	My name is Linda.
	Hi Linda.
	I'm calling from Omaha, Nebraska.
	Okay.
	And this event happened in early, the first week of June of 1975.
	I was at my mother's house and our first child was about five months old.
	My dad and my brother and my husband were all watching something on TV and it was getting towards her bedtime and she was getting fussy and I wanted to go so my, who My future sister-in-law and I decided to walk out in the front yard with her for a while try to keep her quiet and you know stuff and as we were standing out in the front yard my sister-in-law was the first one that noticed the light and she said look now where this was is in North Omaha and the way airplanes come into North Omaha they like they come in from the north and around to what's called at the airfield
	And she says, look at that airplane, Linda.
	She says, doesn't that have odd colored landing lights?
	And I looked at it and they were, it was an orange.
	They weren't white.
	They were orange.
	And I said, well, I don't think planes have orange landing lights.
	And it got over an area of a cemetery that was about a half a mile to a mile from my parents' house.
	And we stood there and it stopped dead.
	It was round.
	It was circular.
	It stopped dead over the cemetery.
	I mean straight over the cemetery where the cemetery was.
	It turned several different colors.
	It turned from the orange to the blue.
	Yes.
	And then it turned an absolute blood red and it looked like it settled into the cemetery.
	Oh man.
	Judy and I stood there and watched this.
	Yes.
	Horrified.
	And we run back into the house and told everybody what we had seen.
	And my dad said, well, he said, let's go up and drive along.
	The back side of the cemetery, the name of the street is State Street, and he said, see if we can see anything up there.
	We drove up there, drove up and down, couldn't see anything.
	Went home.
	The next morning, was it like a Saturday morning, and my husband and I used to go over and have coffee and rolls with my parents on Saturday morning.
	We were over there, and my dad said, um, where does it look... thing came down now, did you say?
	And I said, it looked like it was the highest point in the cemetery.
	And he says, well, why don't we just drive up there and look around?
	So, my mother, my dad, I, my 21-year-old brother, and my husband, and my baby, and I went up there.
	Careful.
	And we got up to where we thought was the highest point in the, you know, what was the highest point in the cemetery and for where we were, the place we were, We could see a straight shot to my parents' house.
	Yes, yes.
	Everything was flat up there.
	It was like there was an intersection, like a crossroads-like place there.
	Okay, we're running short on time.
	Okay, anyway, we all got out of my father's car, and we had been there for maybe 30 seconds, looking around.
	There was a fresh grave over to the side, And you know how they lay the flowers down on a grave?
	Of course.
	Okay.
	All these flowers were blown all over the place.
	All of a sudden, from nowhere, we had no idea from where, appears this car.
	And it's an old, black car.
	My dad's dead now, but he said it was like maybe an old Packard, or something like that, or Dodge, or something.
	Yes.
	But it looked like it was absolutely brand new.
	One guy, the guy that was the driver, just got out and stood by the car and the other guy started coming around and came over and said, and I was trying, it seemed so surreal because I was trying to figure out... Hey, you gotta get it out, man.
	We've only got about 30 seconds.
	Anyway, the guy asked us where, he said, what business do you have here?
	And my dad said, well, we were just looking around.
	And he said, if you have no further business here, leave immediately.
	Were these men in black?
	Well, I'll tell you how they were dressed.
	Were they in black?
	No, they were not in black.
	They had World War II clothes on, is what my dad was wearing.
	Alright, well then what you saw was probably a ghost.
	A ghost?
	Yep.
	Two of them?
	Great.
	With sunglasses?
	Well, okay, it sounds like men in black, but you said they weren't dressed in black, right?
	No, they were not dressed in black, but their air of authority to leave that area immediately, and since then we've gone up there, and that area did not look like it did then.
	All right.
	Well, I appreciate the story.
	I'm not sure that's exactly a men in black story.
	You know, actually, among researchers, These guys don't really have to have gothic taste in clothing and to always wear black.
	You know, the details vary, but in all of the trappings, it sounds like a Men in Black story.
	It does.
	That they had on gray clothing.
	Exactly right.
	As I listened, I mean, graveyard, blood red, object, strange guys, dressed in World War II type clothing.
	That sounds like a ghost story to me.
	Did you hear the reference to the crossroads?
	I did, yes.
	A lot of manifestations take place at crossroads.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Jim Keith.
	Hi.
	Yes, sir.
	I'd like to ask your guest a question about the Mothman.
	Yes.
	That appeared, that was seen in Southern Ohio along the Ohio River.
	Yes.
	This was back about 63, 64.
	I was living there at the time I grew up there and I'd like to ask him if there is any connection between the bridge that collapsed across the Ohio River at the time.
	There's a lot of people that live back there.
	When I was there, you'd think that it, uh, had something to do with the UFOs and the Mothman they were seeing at the time.
	And also, I understand that there were some prophecies about that bridge collapsing.
	Mothman prophecies.
	All right, Jim.
	Yeah, in fact, John Keel, the main researcher who worked on the Mothman case, was in touch with a channeled entity named a Paul who predicted that there was going to be a catastrophe in that area.
	He said something about a water processing plant.
	something i don't remember the exact details that was going to take place on a certain date
	in fact on that date the uh... the silver bridge collapse but believe sixty
	eight people were killed the interesting thing that i find about that aside from
	this uh... prescient this uh... knowing that it was going to happen
	is that just before the silver bridge collapsed men in black showed up in in the town of point pleasant uh...
	a large number of them and people were seen crawling around on the bridge
	uh... in the days prior to the collapse uh...
	I don't necessarily see that as a paranormal occurrence.
	The Mothman Flap is truly an interesting case.
	Alright, East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Jim Keith and Art Bell.
	Hi.
	Yes, hi.
	I had a strange situation happen back in 1985.
	Where are you, sir?
	I'm in Upper New York right now.
	My name's Dave.
	Okay, Dave.
	Um, I, back then I used to live in, uh, Pennsylvania.
	Uh, Latrobe, Pennsylvania.
	And, uh, I went to a gathering.
	Uh, friends of mine had a little party.
	And, uh, we hit it up pretty good, and it came time to go to bed, and, uh, I went to bed about, I don't know, it was probably 8 o'clock at night, and something woke me up out of my sleep around midnight, 1 o'clock in the morning, and when I opened my eyes, there was, at the time, it was kind of scary, you know, because I was only 18 years old, but there was somebody standing over top of me.
	I thought it was somebody, and it was like a split-second thing.
	He was there, and then he was gone.
	What I saw was, you know, he reached out to me, and when I realized what was going on, like a split second I realized what was going on, he was gone.
	And the next morning, I explained to everybody what happened, and they all were like, yeah, yeah, whatever.
	They didn't believe me.
	Right.
	But when I ended up going home to my parents' house, something, you know, I just, I was into weightlifting and wrestling and all that.
	And I weighed myself and I was 20 pounds less than what I was the night before.
	I weighed 20 pounds less.
	My, my.
	And I explained this to doctors and I explained this to different people trying to explain how that happened.
	And everybody said, yeah, yeah, we don't believe you.
	And the doctors couldn't explain it.
	Anything resembling a man in black?
	Yeah, yeah.
	The person had like a black tuxedo top on, like an overcoat with long sleeves and a long tail.
	Here we go.
	Yeah.
	And when he reached out to me, I was so startled that, you know, I sort of like jumped up.
	And when I looked around again, he was gone.
	Bye.
	Well, it's a good thing there's not a lot of those guys around, or Kyto Slim would be out of business.
	I didn't... I couldn't explain it.
	I had another thing happen to me.
	I was just wondering.
	I heard the other guy talking about the flatbed.
	Yeah.
	And he saw something on a flatbed.
	Oh, I've seen plenty of those too.
	Yeah, I try to track the trailer now.
	And I was down in Georgia on a backcountry road.
	I decided not to take the interstate.
	And I passed a flatbed.
	It had something on the bed.
	It was marked with placards.
	It said U.S.
	Government Property.
	And I was in the Air Force for six years.
	And I know what planes look like.
	I've seen some of the secret planes.
	And this thing had no cockpit, no jet propulsion on the back of it, and they had like a cable all the way around it saying U.S.
	Government property.
	Yep.
	Well, I appreciate the story.
	I've seen a lot like that.
	And the characters that you see driving, accompanying these vehicles many times are what you might describe as men in black.
	I've seen that.
	I've seen that here in Nevada.
	They drive all kinds of things around on our highways that you can barely imagine and probably don't want to know about.
	All right.
	Well, to the Rockies, you're on the air with Jim Keith.
	Hi.
	Good morning, Art.
	Good morning, Jim.
	Thanks for taking my call.
	This is Richard in San Jose, California.
	Yes.
	And I had a situation back in, oh, in the early, late 70s.
	I worked for an electronics company.
	And I was in shipping and receiving, and I was taking inventory.
	I was standing on one of these pallets.
	You know where a pallet is?
	Sure.
	And I fell through it, and I fell sideways and broke my ankle, and I'm stuck there.
	And I looked up, and I saw these two guys in black standing there.
	One was short, and it looked like they were taking inventory on me.
	I was wondering why I'm yelling, and why aren't you helping me?
	Why aren't these guys helping me?
	It was like a dream.
	I couldn't see any faces, but I saw they were in black.
	Next thing I knew, this little guy came running over, one of the guys that worked with me.
	I'm a big guy.
	I was about 270 pounds.
	Six foot two and lifted me right up and my ankle was broke and it was you know just dangling but these guys were gone and I heard Jim talk about earlier the trauma this was a definitely a trauma thing you know but I definitely saw these guys That's your Men in Black story, huh?
	Yeah.
	Alright, I appreciate it.
	Before we let you get away, Jim, I've been instructed to ask you, not to let you go without asking you about your work on something called Alternative 3, also known as Project Noah's Ark.
	Something about Jimmy Carter, what's all that?
	Well, Jimmy Carter, what I reference in my book, Casebook on Alternative 3, I like the word casebook apparently, Carter saw a UFO and the way that tees in is that Alternative 3 was a hoax done on British TV in the mid-1970s.
	It's widely believed to be true by UFO buffs and so forth, but There's about a secret program of the elite to escape a dying Earth.
	And again, initially I thought this subject was just pure bunkum.
	But as I dug into this, I found that although there may not have been this specific Alternative 3 program, that every aspect of the program existed in one form or another.
	My Alternative 3 book, in a way, is a kind of an index to conspiracy, like secret space testing, government-built UFOs, mind control experiments, murdered scientists, that all happen to be put together in what was admittedly a hoax by the authors.
	It doesn't have a darn thing to do with men in black, but there it is.
	How many books have you written?
	Well, I've written quite a few.
	I have seven out right now, but I think I've got three more in the pipeline.
	It's hard for me to keep track, but I'm very fast in terms of my writing, and before I got into writing about UFOs and conspiracy, I wrote a lot of horror and science fiction, and so I've really got to the point where I can knock those books out.
	I've got seven out.
	Alright, the one we've been talking about tonight is Casebook, you said you like that word, on the Men in Black, and that just really involves gathering the stories together, and your conclusion after doing that with this book was, there really is, and obviously, listening on the phone through these hours, there is something to this whole Men in Black business.
	I think you're tracking with essentially the same experience I had.
	When I first came into it, it seemed like the subject was almost laughable, and I had really intended to do a debunking of the subject in the sense of saying, yeah, sure, the government does these men in black things, but the rest of it is hoax and delusion.
	But after going through hundreds of these cases, I found that I was convinced.
	There were so many credible So, in other words, you went into it, even though you had a prejudice, you came out on the other end concluding there really is something to all of this.
	the truth about the men in black, you had to deal with the impossible.
	So in other words, you went into it even though you had a prejudice, you came out on the other end
	concluding there really is something to all of this.
	And I, you know, in all the years I've been doing talk radio, you hear occasionally about the men in black.
	Only occasionally.
	But the minute you actually open the lines, it's like right now, they're just blazing away.
	I mean, all these people have seen Men in Black.
	It's incredible.
	Why is there not, other than the popular comedy movie right now, and your book, why have we not heard more about it in popular literature?
	I think it's very hard to wrap your wits around the men in black and to really come up with an explanation for it.
	Like I said, in order for me to do so, I had to take a number of factors into consideration.
	I had to make that cut to say, yeah, a lot of these cases sound like a government operation.
	Yeah, but this hasn't stopped people from writing about UFOs, a similar difficult subject to broach in any forum.
	They do lots of that, but not lots of men in black, and yet there's lots of men in black stories.
	Well, you know, maybe if grey aliens wore top hats, we'd hear less about them.
	It would render it more incredible, and these stories are incredible, and you really don't expect to see a guy in a black cape.
	You know, in your yard these days, much less to have him disappear.
	It's incredible.
	All right.
	Well, let's do it one more time.
	We're at the end of the hour, and I really appreciate your having come on the air, because this is another one of the... I love doing topics, Jim, that nobody else will do.
	Fantastic.
	I enjoy it myself greatly.
	So to get a copy of Men in Black, it's $14.00 and cents.
	How many?
	and cents how many? $14.95 and call 1-800-680-INET that is 1-800-680-4638
	$14.95.
	$14.95.
	And if you buy a copy of the book, the publisher will throw in a copy of their great catalog as well.
	All right.
	Done deal.
	Jim, thank you.
	Lovely to meet you, Art.
	Take care.
	That, my friend, is Jim Keith and Casebook on the Men in Black.
	All right.
	Well, ahead we've got Uh, we've got nothing but, uh, open lines, unscreen talk radio, anything you want to talk about, fair game.
	My book, The Quickening, is now in absolute general release.
	You ought to be able to find it about anywhere.
	Barnes and Noble bookstores would be a good place.
	Bookstar, Bookstop, The Dalton, Borders Books, Music Stores, Walden's Books, you know, wherever you can find now the quickening in general release.
	So pick your favorite bookstore and go in and get it.
	I think you will find it contains great proof of that which I've been discussing and talking about for years now.
	I'm Art Bell and this is CBC.
	The British scientists who cloned Dolly the sheep said on Thursday
	they've made another what they call major advance by cloning Polly the lamb who carries
	human genes.
	Peace.
	you They showed a picture of Polly the lamb with the human genes on CNN.
	Polly has a pretty bizarre looking face.
	It's a lamb But, it's not quite a lamb.
	Polly and four nearly identical sisters are transgenic.
	Transgenic.
	They are sheep carrying a human gene.
	Claimed the scientist managing director of Therapeutics, the company that did this quote, It was what we told everybody we were going to do, but it's nice to be able to say that we've done it."
	End quote.
	Well, I don't know whether it's nice or not.
	I'm beginning to get a little concerned that all of this genetic research is going to reach a mass critical point.
	I mean, this is the stuff they're doing in public.
	What the hell do you think they're doing in private?
	Well, that leads me to story number two, the following I have not conducted.
	It is from Reuters in London.
	Gene therapy could be twisted into terrifying genetic weapons that target and destroy ethnic groups.
	British doctors warned on Tuesday, the British Medical Association, remember this is Reuters, the British Medical Association is so worried by the possibility that it has commissioned a team of geneticists, biologists, lawyers, and warfare experts to see if the technology is possible and if so to ban it now.
	It is, said the doctor, Doctor The Veni, I believe it is, a particularly horrifying thought.
	If you were a dictator somewhere in the world, and you wanted to get rid of a group of people in your population
	who opposed you, whether you're talking about the Hutus, the Tutsis in Rwanda,
	Bosnian Serbs, or 1930s Germany, you could use this.
	So in other words, they simply let something loose that goes tearing through a particular ethnic group, kick them
	cleanly and quickly.
	.
	Anybody out there really want to try and argue with my concept of the cricketing?
	Raise your hands, please.
	Anybody want to argue with that?
	I have documented in my book exactly what I just talked about.
	This really is a book that you should have, so I will use this as an opportunity to plug my book.
	It's in bookstores now, nationally.
	So you don't have to call a number.
	You can still do that, by the way.
	Really, the easier way to do it now is simply to go into a bookstore and ask for a quick name.
	And that's what I suggest you do.
	God, we're getting in frightening times, aren't we?
	On the lighter side, as I tried to say earlier, and I didn't say it right, to quote some email I got, engineers from NASA, Don't forget Richard Hogan speaking at NASA tomorrow night.
	Engineers at NASA have finally determined the cause for the accident which placed the Russian space station and its resident personnel in jeopardy.
	In a statement released Thursday, a spokesperson for the agency said, Our investigation has revealed that the collision between the Russian space station and the resupply rocket was caused by one thing and one thing only, Objects in mirror are closer than they appear.
	What is this?
	And then there is this.
	Two more weirdo items.
	This guy wakes up one morning to find a gorilla in his backyard tree.
	Can you imagine that?
	Finding a gorilla in your backyard tree?
	Anyway, he gets his phone book and looks up the Gorilla Removal Service in the yellow pages.
	The Gorilla Service guy says he can help him out.
	But he needs to know if it's a male or female gorilla.
	So the man runs outside, leaving the phone off the hook.
	Checks it out and tells the gorilla service guy it's a male gorilla.
	Service guy says, okay, I'll be right over.
	A short time later, the service guy shows up with a stick, a chihuahua, a shotgun, and a pair of handcuffs.
	He gives the man some instructions.
	Now he tells the man, I'm gonna climb the tree, and I'm gonna poke this gorilla with a stick until he falls.
	When he does, the trained Chihuahua will attack the gorilla's genitals.
	The gorilla will then reach for his genitals to protect himself naturally, and that's when you snap the handcuffs on him.
	Man says, okay, but what am I supposed to do with a shotgun?
	Service guy replies, If I fall out of the tree before the gorilla, shoot the Chihuahua.
	Saving these up.
	And today's breaking news from the Associated Press.
	Three Yemeni men claim ownership of Mars and have actually filed a lawsuit against NASA for landing on the Red Planet.
	And I have their names here, and I wouldn't even begin to try to pronounce them.
	These three men have filed documents in a Yemeni court that they say prove their claim that they own Mars.
	They said, quote, we inherited the planet from our ancestors 3,000 years ago.
	And they are very upset that NASA's Pathfinder spacecraft landed on Mars, their property, July 4th.
	Now, while I've seen a lot of photographs of Mars, panoramic views, I've not yet seen anything resembling a Yemeni no trespassing sign.
	Nevertheless, are they upset that Sojourner and Pathfinder began exploring Mars without informing them or even seeking their approval?
	One has to wonder if the plaintiffs A case is granted what NASA is going to be able to do to satisfy the verdict.
	As for comment, Richard Cook, Pathfinder Mission Manager at NASA's Jet Launch Laboratory at Pasadena said, Mars is everybody's.
	It's for the whole world to explore and understand.
	Do you think that is a sufficient defense?
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hey, how are you doing, Art Bell?
	Well, I have to really credit the Men in Black stories.
	They were excellent.
	Well, as I said earlier, I enjoy doing things that other talk show hosts would not dream of doing, so there you go.
	And it goes into the mythical and old-time legends that we've had throughout the centuries.
	I think the Men in Black have been with us.
	Since maybe 2,000 or 3,000 years ago since recorded history.
	These are 1500s.
	1500s, yes.
	I think they've been with us a very long time in mythology.
	Hundreds of years at least.
	And what I would like to discuss is a previous show you had a gentleman who was going to go into this electric field of 3 million milliwatts No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
	Is there any videotape of the event?
	Any witnesses?
	Any follow-up stories?
	No, and he was supposed to call me and tell me when he was going to scroll through.
	And has anybody looked for him?
	It's a good question, and I don't have an answer.
	I have looked for him, and I've got the word out, and I'm trying to find out what's going on with Madman, but right now, he's as much of a mystery as the men in black.
	Well, I hope somebody finds him, and I hope that I mean, at least a follow-up story would be great on your show.
	Well, right.
	I mean, if the guy has gone through, he's either dust or he's somewhere else, some other time.
	And if he's in another time, then... I mean, try and imagine the best.
	Try and imagine he's back in 1855, you know?
	Having fun.
	I can't tell you.
	I have no answer.
	And when I do, it'll be on the air.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Yeah, Art, it's Vince in Chicago.
	Hey, Vince.
	You know, the part about the Men in Black where your guest said that the Knights of the Apocalypse are working for the Vatican?
	Oh, yeah.
	I found that really kind of intriguing.
	What do you think about that?
	Well, it made me wonder whether I want to take up this invitation to be able to stroll through the labyrinth seven miles under the Vatican in the dark catacombs of secrecy.
	Yeah.
	And I actually have an invitation to do that.
	Would you do it?
	I think I would.
	Like you say, you only live once.
	I would do it.
	And I know if Malachi Martin asked you if you wanted to do that, he would arrange it.
	Yeah.
	I would take him up on that.
	This is going to be a very, very, very interesting trip.
	Did you ever hear of the Knights of the Apocalypse?
	I never did.
	No, but somehow one can absolutely imagine that there is such a group.
	I don't know if they call themselves the Knights of the Apocalypse.
	It's certainly a pretty horrifying name.
	But I mean, sure, the Church absolutely believes the Antichrist is coming, and I am sure That they have very special groups that are following leads looking for exactly that occurrence, of course.
	I believe it, yes.
	And I have a feeling something's up too, whether it's the quickening or whatever, something's up with the whole The whole alien phenomena that we are experiencing nowadays.
	Well, you know, even if you forget that, even if you forget the things that we can't quite explain like Men in Black and all the rest of it, and look at what they're doing right now with genetics.
	It's beginning to scare the hell out of me.
	Really, that story about the sheep with the human gene, that is really scary.
	Yeah, they showed the sheep.
	You'll see it later today on CNN.
	Look very carefully at that sheep's face.
	It has subtle human Characteristics, and it's eerie.
	That sounds very eerie.
	All right, how about Phoenix?
	Has anything happened in Phoenix yet?
	Well, we'll get a full report tomorrow night.
	That's why Mr. Hoagland's going to be here.
	I'm looking forward to hearing that.
	Mr. Hoagland's one of my favorite guests on your program.
	He's always very interesting and should be a good show.
	All right.
	Well, I will strangle him until he comes to the point.
	Just as a favor for all of you, and my own sanity.
	Richard knows this of himself.
	So, we've got an awful lot of material to cover tomorrow night, and I'm not going to allow Richard to drag each one out until the point where I'm ready to explode.
	Now, I realize that you've got to lay groundwork for a lot of what you say, and he promised yesterday, when I spoke with him, that in fact, because we have laid so much groundwork already, that we will be coming to the point very quickly with very many things.
	It's not just Richard tomorrow night, but he's bringing a lot of expert support for what he's got to say.
	So we'll see.
	We'll be going into, but not completing, the 26th.
	And you recall Richard said that he expected something between the 20th and the 26th.
	If you want to know what I think, I think we got it.
	If you recall, the Pathfinder and Sojourner Uh, we're... They lost contact.
	On, of all days, the 20th.
	They lost... NASA lost contact with them.
	There were several things that NASA did that are simply... Unbelievable.
	Absolutely unbelievable.
	On the 20th.
	And that's a little too much coincidence for me.
	Richard will lay it out tomorrow night.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hello, this is Latham.
	Nathan, where are you?
	I am in Tigers.
	Okay.
	Oh, did you call earlier?
	No, I actually know the guy, but... You know the guy.
	Well, turn your radio off.
	Okay.
	That's number one.
	What I wanted to know about is if the planets aligning and everything would have to do with that.
	To do with what?
	Well, I mean, the supernatural and... Yes, when they align, we are all going to wink out.
	Okay, well... Just like that.
	I don't think it'll be happening just like that.
	I guess it will.
	Just like that.
	I think it'll also have to do something with a lot of the occurrences with UFO sightings.
	Nope.
	You're gonna wink out.
	Go on.
	Okay.
	Dust.
	I was also noticing a lot of similarities between the UN and the seven-headed beast in the Bible.
	Seven-headed beast in the Bible.
	Yes.
	And you equate that to the United Nations?
	Yes, I do, because in the Bible it says that there is a seven-headed beast that has ten crowns.
	And it will basically rule over the world for a while.
	Yeah.
	And there's seven major nations in the UN.
	Okay, with hundreds of other nations backing it up, which that describes the body of a leopard.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And one of the nations has two crowns, like the US.
	You're beginning to scare me.
	Why are you talking this way to me?
	Uh, I don't know.
	You don't know?
	Well, I can't take much more.
	Seven-Headed Beasts, the UN.
	It's all too much for me.
	Thank you for the call, over and out.
	Goodbye.
	I got a fax from somebody earlier today named Dean, who writes the following question, Art.
	I cannot believe the police would block off an 18 block area just because one man, couldn't him, shot himself.
	Is this common practice?
	Was more than one shot fired?
	Was there a shootout between Kunanen and the police?
	Did the police want him dead because he knew too much?
	He was a member of a very big, high society, gay group from Las Vegas to San Diego to Miami, Chicago, etc.
	I've got to admit that the whole thing and the way it went down was pretty strange.
	I have yet to understand Why they initially reported they found no body in two searches and found a body on a bed in a third search.
	I don't buy it.
	Then later they corrected it and said no we found a body in the first search.
	Now in my mind that's a little like first saying it was a flying saucer that crashed and then saying it was a weather balloon.
	So there's a number of things about this whole business with Kernan that I don't understand.
	Other than that, it seems to me it's pretty much case closed.
	The gun that he's said to have killed himself with, you know, eaten, was the gun used to kill the fashion designer.
	Same gun.
	So that would seem case closed, but there's a lot of strange things going on with the way the police handled this, and I'm not comfortable with it.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air, huh?
	Yeah, and the amazing thing about that Cluedon case is, in fact, 30 hours after He actually was found or whatever.
	They're still continuing to run it as the lead story on top of every hour.
	I know it.
	I know something, there's something going on here that I'm not sure of yet.
	The media really did not want the story to end this way, I don't believe.
	No, they probably wanted a big trial.
	Right.
	You know, they probably wanted a big trial.
	But still, it came down very oddly, don't you think?
	Oh, incredibly.
	Like you said a moment ago, it still hasn't been explained.
	What happened in the first couple of hours after the standoff with 18 Blogs?
	I mean, I was watching it on CNN, and I heard the reports as they came in.
	When it's breaking news, I sit down and park myself in front of breaking news.
	Sure.
	Unfortunately, I was asleep at that time preparing for your show, but go ahead.
	Yeah, well, I'm sucked into it.
	Go ahead.
	The breaking news, everything else stops.
	We all sit down.
	We watch whatever's going on.
	I'm a junkie.
	Of course.
	So anyway, the whole thing was strange.
	Absolutely.
	Well, we'll see.
	Probably, in truth, we'll never know.
	It's another one of those things we'll never know.
	Like the Kennedy assassination, we'll never know.
	We'll hear stories.
	Tonight, we even heard stories about the men in black involved in the Kennedy assassination.
	Why not?
	Everything else has been.
	And this, everything else, strange stuff, and we'll never know the whole story.
	Somebody ought to write a book.
	Well, I guess you couldn't write a book about these things, could you?
	Maybe you could collect and write a book about things that we will never... and write a book about... West of the Rockies or On the Air?
	Hello.
	Well, good morning, Art.
	Good morning.
	I haven't talked to you since KDWN days.
	Thank God.
	It's been a while.
	Yeah, well, I wanted to comment on this Coonertyn mess.
	I don't think it's really that strange.
	I mean, his actions, of course, are very strange, very sad.
	Well, of course.
	Horrible.
	But the way the police handled it is horrible.
	The way it came down.
	The cops, there's a lot of ego that was on the line.
	This guy was on the loose for months.
	Leaving calling cards, hey here I am, here I was, you idiot, calling cards, hey you couldn't even get me.
	Then in the very end, they really didn't, all they got was a body.
	I wonder if they were bummed.
	What I've heard, they're pretty damn happy about what happened, because they did not want a trial.
	More publicity, more of him grandstanding, or whatever.
	Yeah, to me, at the end of it, he goes, oh, that's it.
	I killed four people.
	I got no money.
	My friends are all turning against me.
	A few friends I got left.
	I don't know what the hell with it.
	I hear you.
	I'm sure you're exactly right.
	He laid on that bed, and he just blew his brains out.
	I hear you.
	But maybe, in some ways, disappointed there wasn't some shootout.
	Well, I don't know.
	Yeah, well, those Miami cops are known to be pretty quick to trigger, you know?
	You remember those riots they had down there a couple years ago?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, the Cubans and blacks and everything.
	But I don't know, I think it, you know, I really feel really bad for the families.
	I just, you know, it's just so sad, you know.
	Always.
	And the only reason I wish, I guess, that they had captured him alive is so that we could understand why he did what he did.
	One more thing, Art.
	A very strange occurrence happened at the Senate hearings today, or yesterday.
	You know, there's finances, campaign finances.
	We had a witness who didn't want to plead the fifth.
	He didn't have to be subpoenaed.
	He didn't run away from the country.
	And for some reason, he goes, OK, here I am, taking a red shot at me.
	And the Democrats were absolutely, didn't know what to do.
	I mean, they were shooting blanks all over the place.
	Yeah, that was pretty amazing.
	And John Glenn.
	What happened to my hero?
	I don't know.
	Look, to me, the whole campaign finance thing is a damn joke.
	On the left and the right.
	I mean, it's a joke.
	And that's why I don't talk about it a lot.
	Do you think they're really going to do anything about campaign finance reform?
	Ken, if you think that, I've got a plot on Mars for you.
	And I don't care whether they sue me or not.
	In fact, I'll sell you a little piece over by the face, if you want it.
	Both sides of the aisle.
	Money is the mother's milk of politics.
	And mother's milk is the last thing they're going to give up.
	So I don't care what they talk about, what rule they pass, they're always going to find a way to get around it.
	And if they need $20 million to run for a Senate office, they're gonna find it.
	History.
	It's a bunch of history.
	Wells to the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Uh, hi, Art.
	This is Paul calling you from Phoenix, Arizona.
	Hello, Paul.
	Yeah, could I make a prediction for, like, the next three days?
	No.
	I can't?
	No.
	Why not?
	Well, you can.
	Oh, I'm just predicting like a heat wave that's going to go across to the west to the east.
	How about that?
	Well, I would say you don't have your neck too far out.
	I mean, this is, what, August 25th or something now, right?
	Yes, sir.
	Uh-huh.
	I'm sorry, July 25th.
	So, we're dead middle of the summer.
	Predicting a heat wave is not exactly sticking your neck away.
	One more thing, about that witch, that Evelyn, was her name?
	Evelyn Paglini, yes.
	Yes, what I was curious about, the guy that you're looking for, do you know who he is, or like the spell or whatever you're trying to put on him, is that just going to go out in outer space, or what's the deal?
	I really can't talk about it, but I appreciate the call, thank you.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air, hello.
	Hi Art.
	Hello.
	This is, I'm going to use a, not a real name.
	You're going to use a pseudoname?
	A pseudoname.
	Um, this is George in Miami.
	George in Miami?
	Yes.
	Alright.
	I am, I am a Miami police officer, that's the reason I'm using a pseudoname.
	Okay.
	And I am trying to disguise my voice so hopefully I'm not recognized.
	Well, um, you're doing the best you can, I know, but you really need one of these.
	It probably would help.
	Go ahead.
	Um, this deal with, uh... Internet.
	Internet.
	Can you tell us anything we don't know?
	I'm not going to divulge a lot.
	I am just going to say that the Miami Police Department was very disappointed that they didn't get him.
	The FBI was very disappointed that Well, I'm not surprised.
	I appreciate that inside information, but that's not a shock.
	I know that, but there was a lot of speculation.
	You kind of were saying, well, that's probably how they should use it.
	Yeah.
	I'm telling you that is how they felt.
	They didn't realize how they felt.
	this was talked about for a week. They didn't want him to take him. They wanted him to sit
	in. I don't, I don't doubt a word you're saying and I appreciate your verifying what I thought.
	Yes sir, you too.
	I think that guy was real.
	Sure.
	I absolutely buy into what you just said and what I think.
	It's a natural reaction for the police and the FBI.
	Who wanted to get their guy.
	They didn't want their guy to get himself.
	They wanted to get their guy.
	And I will even extend it beyond that.
	I'm disappointed in that reason that I would like to know his motivation.
	I mean, are we beginning to get more and more people?
	I refer to my quickening thank you and you'll find a chapter in the book on this.
	Who just don't care about life.
	Life means nothing.
	I'm into pure speculation now.
	But Kununen seemed to be taunting the police, always a bad idea, into catching him, saying, leaving clues, getting close, catch me, come on, get me, get me, get me!
	And there is a certain amount of ego involved in law enforcement, and they wanted to get his tail end.
	And I think from society's point of view, we've got to begin to understand why we are getting these people who crave attention and murder to get it.
	He literally turned from whatever he was into a serial killer for attention.
	Took life without thinking about it to get attention.
	We need to be able to understand something about these people.
	From that point of view, I think it was very disappointing that he was not taken alive.
	And as for the police, um, it is, and I understand their disappointment at not, uh, getting him, one way or the other.
	It's a natural reaction.
	It's not a big secret.
	It was one of the biggest manhunts in all of history, and I'm sure they wanted to get their man.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hello?
	Turn your radio off, please.
	Yes, I will.
	Okay.
	Thank you.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Yes.
	Am I speaking to Art Bell?
	You are.
	Oh, this is a first-time caller.
	I am from Vancouver, British Columbia.
	Ah, okay.
	And I discovered your program, in fact, only the beginning last week.
	And I'm very intrigued by it.
	But last night's program Has completely, yeah, I don't know, confounded me.
	I'm just, I couldn't sleep, I'll tell you honestly.
	Colonel Corso.
	Yeah.
	Yes, I understand your reaction because by listening to a man who's 82 years old, with his background unquestioned, we know his background is accurate, saying what he said, you're forced to either believe what he said is absolutely true, Which is mind-boggling, for you're forced to believe he's a liar, which in his case is very difficult.
	I believe he's telling the truth.
	Yeah, so do I. And another condition is this, I already ordered that book, and I can read in Vancouver from Banyan Books, but the questioning, I want so much to get, and I tried all big books to write, and no, I never heard of it, and it's not on the list, But it runs from the Colonel Philip DeCourceau.
	Yes.
	They have on the list.
	Well, his book has been out for some time now.
	Mine just went to the bookstores.
	Yes.
	So, um, continue to check.
	They should have it on their computer list.
	They have not yet.
	And if they don't, they will soon.
	Now, you're in Canada, so I'm not as sure about that.
	I will have to ask my publisher.
	It certainly is true in this country, and maybe Canada takes a little longer.
	I'm not sure.
	But they have it on the list from Colonel Corso.
	Yes, I'm sure they would.
	Yeah.
	But I've asked them anyway to try to get me two copies because somebody else is very interested too.
	So I really hope I can get that book.
	Where are you from?
	I hear an accent in you.
	Where are you from?
	From Holland.
	I'm sorry?
	From Holland.
	Holland?
	Yes.
	Wonderful.
	Well, you call me again.
	Good luck on the book.
	It's a great read.
	You will really enjoy it.
	Thank you very much for taking my call, too.
	Okay.
	Take care.
	From Holland.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello, Warren Bell.
	Yes, sir.
	Very interesting program tonight.
	Yes.
	They were talking about the black cats, the black dogs and everything such as that.
	Mm-hmm.
	I have two black cats.
	Black cats at the house myself?
	Mm-hmm.
	Can I ask you something?
	What is the fear of the black cats and the number 13?
	Well, it's all connected.
	I mean, the fear of black cats is that when one crosses your path... Mm-hmm.

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