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July 22, 1997 - Art Bell

02:46:49

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Leonard Nimoy Interview

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01:21:24

charles ostman

23:42

leonard nimoy

13:50

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Welcome to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from July 22nd, 1997.
		The center of the Earth.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Science calls it the core.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Legend calls it hell.
unidentified		Somewhere between the two lies man's imagination.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		It is man's blessing to explore his world, and his curse that he is never satisfied with what he finds.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Astonishingly, even as we have proved the edge of our solar system, we have only penetrated our own planet's crust by a handful of miles.
unidentified		The Earth itself poses a formidable obstacle.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		What scientists call the Earth's core begins approximately 1,800 miles straight down and reaches a temperature of 9,000 degrees Fahrenheit at its molten nickel-iron center.
unidentified		A scalding link to our cosmic creation.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		The center of the Earth is one of mankind's greatest untapped mysteries, hypnotically enticing, eternally elusive.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		130 years ago, Jules Verne fantasized that the center of the earth was not an infernal, but rather a habitable place, a place that could be explored.
unidentified		And explore it he did, in 1864, with words.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		And now, we will explore it as well, with words and sounds, as we embark on a journey to the center of the Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In a moment, Leonard Nimoy.
		Hello everybody, I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM, and what you just heard came from Leonard Nimoy's journey to the center of the Earth, which is a two-year-old two CD audio book by Simon Schuster, available from Simon Schuster.
		He also has available The Time Machine, and you know me in Time.
		So it was kind of a toss-up.
		Both of these, two CD sets available from Simon and Schuster.
		In a moment, Leonard Nimoy, here for only a very short time, unfortunately.
unidentified		so we will come on with questions Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And now I shouldn't have to introduce him.
		This is Leonard Nimoy.
		Leonard, welcome to the program.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
		We have such a short time that I feel obligated to literally pummel you with questions.
		Okay, go.
		All right.
		The character Mr. Spock came along in a time in our country of peace, love, Woodstock, sex, drugs, rock and roll.
		Let it all hang out, that kind of time.
		And yet, Spock was the picture, the very essence of self-control, self-denial, self-governance.
		How could that character have become such a hero in such an uncontrolled atmosphere?
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a great question.
		I think for one thing, the time was one where so many people were becoming cynical about government and authority figures.
		It was clear that bureaucracy was not responding to the individual, and the war in Vietnam was ongoing, in spite of the fact that more and more and more people every day believed that it was wrong.
		We all believed in supporting our country, but we believed that we shouldn't be in that war.
		And here came a character who had a dignity and integrity and intelligence.
		I think the sense was that this was a person that you could believe and count on, that wouldn't be involved with hypocrisy, duplicity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There was a hunger then.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, oh, yeah, I think so.
		I think he served the great hunger, absolutely.
		And I think, too, that we were ready for the idea of a friendly alien.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's right.
		How do you feel, by the way, about the role itself?
		You'll be Mr. Spock, of course, forever.
		Do you ever get resentful of that?
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm very comfortable with it.
		That's why the last book that I wrote, I Am Spock, is titled the way it is.
		I've really come full circle with it, and I'm totally comfortable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that Gene Roddenberry would approve of the repeat direction and usage of original characters that have been now exhaustively repeated in so many other knockoffs?
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't think Gene had any problem with perpetuating Star Trek.
		I think he would always enjoy the idea of the success of the franchise, but I do think that he would be at least interested in seeing that the thematic ideas were strong.
		That's what Star Trek really is about when it's at its best, is that there's a thematic ideas.
		It should be great entertainment, great adventure, but it should be about something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and Star Trek always was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it moving away from that slowly, the knockoffs?
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I've got to be honest with you.
		I don't watch enough of it to pass judgment.
		I feel very good about what we did.
		I feel very good about the TV shows and the movies that I was involved with.
		i've seen uh...
		generation that i've seen contact and i'm not really sure that that their story that that i would set out to do with major motion pictures so your reaction to contact was not i think it was very well done very well executed i'm just not um...
		I wasn't blown away with the story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's go back to Star Trek for a second.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you remember the gentleman, and I cannot, who was originally cast as a captain of the Enterprise, Christopher Pike, LA?
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was Jeffrey Hunter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what happened to him?
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Well, Jeffrey Hunter was an important movie star.
		He was a very great gentleman and a fine actor.
		He did the first pilot as Captain Pike, and then about a year later, when NBC and Desi Lee decided they wanted to make the second pilot, he simply wasn't available.
		I'm not sure whether he had another job or whether the negotiations with him got too tough or whatever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was later brought back as a menagerie, wasn't it?
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess you've really already answered this, with respect to your answer on contact.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But otherwise, other television programs, movies, and so forth, has anything come close to the genre of Star Trek?
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Well, what an interesting question.
		I saw a few episodes of Outer Limits that I thought were very interesting.
		I think X-Files has a great kind of internal life going on.
		It has a certain kind of style, and it has an attitude.
		It has an attitude.
		And I think that's very important.
		I think Babylon 5 has an attitude that works at times.
		That's pretty much it as far as I'm concerned.
		I mean, in my range of experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A very trivial question, but important to me, nevertheless.
		In the early episodes, many years, actually, of Star Trek, the women, the ensigns, all had these wonderful uniforms that in later years changed to pants.
		Who did that?
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		But you're touching on a very interesting point.
		Science fiction for a long time was a sub-sub-genre.
		It was considered a distant cousin of important work.
		And in fact, when I started acting in science fiction 45 years ago, if you can believe it, in a Saturday afternoon serial called Zombies of the Stratosphere, science fiction was a genre in which you saw monsters, you saw people in strange outfits who came from other worlds, and you saw ladies who were scantily dressed.
		And there was always some sexy aspect to it.
		And that was what you saw in the early days of Star Trek.
		The women were, I think, Bill Tice did a brilliant job of dressing or nearly dressing some of the ladies.
		And then later on, I guess political correctness and feminism came on the scene.
		And there was some question about whether or not these women shouldn't be wearing more clothes in their professional situations, and that's what happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure, but I think it's also perhaps as the airline stewardesses began to get older, too.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, that could be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where did the idea of the all-famous Vulcan mind control mind-meld come from?
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		We were doing an episode called, I believe, Dagger of the Mind.
		And there was an actor playing a character who was mentally deranged.
		And he had information that we had to have.
		And the scene, as it was written, was a kind of a tedious interrogation scene where I asked him a lot of questions and got information from him piecemeal, a word here and a word there.
		And it wasn't as dramatic as it might be.
		And Gene Roddenberry came up with this idea that Vulcans could do this meeting of the minds and extract the information that way.
		It was kind of a Vulcan version of hypnosis.
		And it made for a much more dramatic way of getting the information.
		It became a very useful tool for the spot character.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I remember clearly, and I saw every single episode in every single movie.
		And I remember when you died.
		I remember when your casket, I thought, flashed and burned in the atmosphere.
		What was it like to be killed off?
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		I had a tough time with it.
		I had a tough time with it.
		I took the job because, frankly, I believed that that might be the last Star Trek movie.
		And I thought, why not go out in a flash and a blaze of glory, saving the Enterprise and the crew and dying in the process?
		I really thought this might be the last film.
		By the time we got around to shooting the final scene, the goodbye scene, where I'm saying goodbye to Captain Kirk, I had the sense that the movie was going to work.
		And I thought, if this movie is as good as I think it is, there are going to be more.
		And I began to have second thoughts about what I had done.
		But the die was cast, and I was a little late.
		It was a little too late to do anything about it.
		Except on the day we were shooting that scene, Harve Bennett came down to the set and said, do you think that you could do something in this scene that would give us a thread to pick up if there is another movie?
		And that's when I came up with this idea of doing a mind mell with Dee Kelly and simply saying the word remember.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		It was ambiguous enough that a writer could pick up that idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Remember, there might be another.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, exactly.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		If there's another movie, don't forget me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In Search of, a lot of people wrote and asked me to ask you about In Search of, whether you ever might pick that up again.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll tell you, In Search of was a pleasant surprise to me.
		Again, I thought maybe two or three seasons would be the stretch of the show.
		We did seven years, and we did 144 episodes, and I think it became sort of the model and the granddaddy of a lot of the reality-based searching shows that are on the air now.
		In fact, for the last couple of years, I've been narrating a show called Ancient Mysteries, which has its own similarities to In Search of.
		I haven't heard any word about In Search of being resurrected, but it's not a bad idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		It was Alan Keyes, a presidential candidate in the last election, who said, Star Trek, in many ways, more personifies the spirit of what NASA used to be than does the current NASA.
		Would you agree with that?
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		That's interesting.
		I wasn't aware of that.
		I think it's true.
		And I think just this last week that we've been seeing a revival of interest in NASA.
		I think they've had an enormous success with the rover on Mars.
		And I think that they have gotten out of their kind of bureaucratic bind and gotten into an adventurous spirit that's captured the imagination again.
		And if that's true, and if they can keep that kind of sense of adventure going, I think that they might build on it successfully.
		There's still a tremendous interest, I think, in what's out there.
		And I think NASA is the organization that's best set up to do the exploring.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Building greater interest than ever in what's out there.
		More UFO reports lights over Phoenix recently, the celebration of Roswell, the rest of it.
		What about moving into the realm of reality?
		How much chance do you think there really is that we will be contacted?
		I mean, there is so much media.
		It's almost as though we are being prepared.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		You know, when we were making the Star Trek series, the first season, middle of the first season, some people came to me and they said, you may not know it, but you have been chosen as a kind of a vessel to carry information to this civilization to help prepare this society for the coming of another civilization, for alien arrival.
		And your character is a character designed to educate this public that there's nothing to fear, that it's possible to interact with other species.
		And I said, okay, it's okay with me if that's the case.
		And yes, it's ongoing.
		It doesn't stop.
		I guess there's something in me that responds to it as well.
		That's why I hooked up with John Delancey and several other Star Trek actors and actresses and we call ourselves Alien Voices.
		This group that's doing these audio tapes, the journey to the center of the earth and the time machine and Lost World.
		I guess we're kind of touched by that idea.
		We're tickled by that idea.
		Our imaginations are awakened, aroused by that idea.
		I'm curious.
		I'm very curious.
		The Carl Sagan movie that just opened, the movie based on Carl Sagan's book, Contact, just opened.
		It's a flawed movie, but I think one of the most important moments in the movie is when Jodi Foster tells us the numbers.
		There are something like 4 billion stars in our galaxy alone, in our galaxy alone.
		And there are billions of other galaxies.
		Each of those stars are potential suns just like ours.
		And that means that if one out of every million of those stars has planets around it, and if any one out of every million of those has some kind of life on it, then the numbers tell us that the chances are very, very great that there is life out there someplace.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But the distances are immense, and the technology involved to get here would dictate they would be far, far ahead of us.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Well, not necessarily.
		They might be far ahead of us.
		They might be parallel to us.
		We don't know that for sure.
		But you're right.
		The chances are they're far ahead of us, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the question is whether you think that beings, not just humans, evolve toward or away from violence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		An important question if we're going to meet up with somebody.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, that's always the question.
		How did they, you know, the first thing that we would like to know is how did you folks get through the technological phase of your civilization and survive?
		How did you survive all the discoveries of atomic weaponry and atomic power and that kind of thing without killing each other?
		And the assumption is that we'll be able to ask those questions and they'll educate us and help us get through it.
		It won't necessarily work that way.
		It may take an enormous amount of time just for us to learn how to communicate with them, let alone to get information from them.
		The assumption always is that they have traveled the same path that we are traveling, that they may be 100 or 1,000 years ahead of us, but that they have gone through exactly the same experience, and chances are that's not necessarily true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, recalling the prime directive, if you look at what we have done here on Earth, you know, reality, when we have met people who have been isolated from the world until one sudden day when they're found in the middle of a jungle somewhere, we destroy them.
unidentified		Yeah.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Right.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, on a lighter note, you did some music stuff, didn't you?
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I have dabbled with music in my time.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Where are you going with this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I just wanted to ask whether there's more coming.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not too many people know that you dabbled with music, do they?
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Well, music has always been a love of mine.
		And when we were doing the Star Trek series, I had the opportunity to do some recording, which I did.
		I think I must have done about six albums.
		I also did a lot of musical theater.
		I toured the country in various musical shows in the 70s.
		I did Fitter on the Roof, My Fair Lady, King and I, Camelot.
		Had a great time.
		I loved doing it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then a question I asked you just before the program, the one I did ask you is, how do you get a life?
		I mean, how do you, you're so busy, so many demands on your time, and I'm one of them right now.
		How do you make time for a life?
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Well, first, let me say this.
		When I came to California, I was 18 years old.
		I left Boston, came to California to be an actor.
		For the first 15 years that I spent working at building a career, I was always wanting more opportunity.
		I was always struggling to get more work.
		When it all came together for me and Star Trek started, and I haven't been out of work since, and then particularly when I had a couple of hits directing movies and all of that came together, suddenly you're right.
		What happens to you, as you know, is that there's a tremendous amount of pressure builds up to do this, do that, and people would be happy to keep you busy 24 hours a day.
		I don't resent it because of the time that I spent wanting more and needing more and knowing what it's like being out of work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you just make rules?
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, exactly.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		I try to keep a level head about it, and I try to help people understand that a man does live by work alone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's it.
		Leonard, that's it.
		In more ways than one, that's a half an hour.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's a half an hour.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Oh, too fast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Too fast is right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So can we do this again sometime?
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah, I'd love to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		All right.
		Leonard Nimoy, thanks a million.
		I wish I had hours.
		Take care.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, that's Leonard Nimoy.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 22, 1997.
		Coast to Coast AM from July
		22, 1997.
		Coast to Coast AM from July 22, 1997.
		Coast to Coast AM from July 22, 1997.
		You're listening to one bell at somewhere in time.
		The night between a replay up post at 1 p.m. from July 22nd, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Soon to enter the mad world of unscreen talk radio.
		Well, 30 minutes, I know, wasn't enough, was it?
		I could have done all five hours, of course, with Leonard Des Moy, but I do understand.
		And that was the reason for the last question.
		It seems like when you achieve a certain level of success, if it is allowed, the world will take your entire life.
		I know that.
		Radio, television, newspapers, magazines, all of it comes at you constantly, the media.
		And if you allow it to, and your sense, because you love what you do and you love your work, is to allow it.
		You know, I get calls from affiliates and all of these various media sources all the time.
		Even networks, the BBC, major U.S. networks and the rest of them.
		And I finally, you heard me declare no more TV not long ago.
		And that's one of the reasons I did that.
		TV is an extremely time-consuming, arduous thing, as Leonard Nimoy could certainly tell you.
		And so I began to close some of it out of my life so that I would have a little life left.
		And so in that spirit, I absolutely understand the fact that he could only spend a little bit of time with us.
		What I will do is repeat that interview for the midnight crowd in about an hour and a half.
		I took the questions and prioritized them as best I could.
		And he took a pretty good pummeling there.
		So we got our money's worth for 30 minutes.
unidentified		Shag!
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The End The Federal Reserve Chairman, Alan Greenspan, said U.S. economic growth appears to be slowing.
		So more or less he said he wasn't going to raise interest rates.
		The Dow Jones loved it.
		The market loved it.
		And we achieved yet another new high.
		We went up 153.93 points to 8,061.65.
		It's going to be interesting to see exactly how high it can go.
		And the trick for those of us who are in the market, and I am just a very tiny way, is to know when it's about at the highest point and when it's getting ready to take about a 2,000-point correction.
		And I'm sure I'll miss that by a mile.
		President Clinton accepted a proposal by the Attorney General, your favorite Janet Reno, that would reduce the wide disparities in federal prison sentences for crack and powder cocaine.
		Even them all out, in other words.
		Because there have been so many claims of unfairness by those who have gone to jail for a month for a certain amount of crack versus others who have gone to jail for life.
		Newt Gingrich is trying to quiet things down after the attempted palace.
		I use that word almost loosely with regard to the house, palace coup.
		They were going to get rid of Gingrich.
		Instead, he got rid of them.
		The Mars mission is back on track.
		I must admit, it is a little unsettling that, as Mr. Hoagland, you'll recall, suggested, they lost contact with Mars Pathfinder for about a day on July 20th.
		Of all days, on July 20th, Pathfinder was virtually unheard of for a little while.
		Very interesting.
		Hey, listen, you know what we're going to do tomorrow night?
		We're going to have Dr. John Alexander and Colonel Philip Corso here.
		Do you know who Philip Corso is, Colonel?
		Retired?
		Well, if you heard Dreamland a couple of weeks ago, you know he's got a bestseller on his hand.
		As a matter of fact, I think his book, The Day After Roswell, is going to debut at number 12 nationally.
		And this is a man who actually had his hands on the Roswell debris, the technology acquired at Roswell.
		This is a man who actually says he dispersed it to American industry, and much of the technology that we have today comes directly from that debris, including, among other things, fiber optics.
		It is an interview not to be missed.
		That's going to be tomorrow night.
		And I think Friday night, the 26th, the last day of the prediction of Richard Hoagland of events to occur between the 20th and the 26th.
		I hope that's right.
		It's the 26th, I believe.
		Friday night, Saturday.
		We'll be here.
		Tomorrow night is going to be a very interesting program indeed.
unidentified		Jim Keith.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, that's not right.
		Tomorrow night is going to be, as I said, Dr. Alexander and Colonel Corso, and then Thursday night, Friday night.
		Thursday night, Friday morning, it's going to be Jim Keith, who writes a serious book, a case book actually, about the men in black.
		So that should be very interesting.
		Get this late news from Palo Alto, California.
		Billed by its creators as the world's first artificial brain, the Cellular Automata Brain Machine, or CBM, awoke, their words folks, awoke last week for a workout at Stanford University's Genetic Programming Conference.
		More than 300 researchers heard presentations for harnessing survival of the fittest principles to automatically build software and hardware that evolves.
		The CBM, designed by Japan's Advanced Telecommunications Research Institute International, that's some name, comprises a real-time, listen to this, million neuron modular architecture that can evolve thousands of neural networks in minutes.
		What we're talking about here, folks, is artificial intelligence.
		Not on the horizon, but here now.
		And I wonder where you think this is going to lead.
		An artificial brain, one that you set upon a path of developing new neural pathways and virtually improving itself, growing.
		Want to think of it that way?
		Think of it as something that is growing.
		And it's their words here that it awakened.
		Awakened.
		Oh, what road are we beginning to go down?
		And what's at the end of it, don't you wonder?
		All right.
		It's going to be open lines now.
		Anything you want to talk about is fair game.
		West of the Rockies, good morning.
		You're number one.
		You're on the air.
		Hello there.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn your radio off, please.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Oh, hi.
unidentified		How are you, Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fine.
unidentified		Good.
unidentified		My name's Ron, and I'm calling from Apple Valley.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Ron.
unidentified		And I've fact you a few times, but a couple questions that I have for you.
unidentified		One, I find it kind of ironic that Pathfinder was lost over the weekend.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So do I. Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the 20th, of all days.
unidentified		Of all days, no doubt.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, what they said was they had a carrier wave from Pathfinder, but no information whatsoever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, to all the world, it was dead as a doornail for that day.
unidentified		Isn't that special?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		No doubt.
		I couldn't believe it when I heard it.
		I was like, they're up to it again, you know.
		But my second question is, Ed Dames.
		I've really been waiting to hear about his predictions and the earthquakes, because, of course, I'm in California here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, as you well know, or maybe you don't know, Ed Dames was on the air last week.
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I must have missed it, obviously, because I was trying to do both worlds here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And where was it you said you were again?
unidentified		In Apple Valley, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry.
unidentified		Yeah, but that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I really mean I'm sorry.
unidentified		Oh, that I missed it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that you missed what he said about Apple Valley?
unidentified		Oh, I'm sure he just focused right in on Apple Valley.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually.
unidentified		Did he really?
unidentified		Really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, I guess all I can say is I'm sorry.
unidentified		What night was that?
unidentified		Maybe I can order the tape.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm kidding you.
unidentified		I know you are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was, I don't recall, just offhand.
		We're going to do a show with Ed.
		Don't despair.
		We're going to, you know, we'll do a whole show with Ed.
		We're going to schedule one.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Oh, good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Well, I just wanted to thank you for your show, and I know you get a lot of heat, and we just love you, Gart.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, look, heat is my middle name.
		Thank you very much for the call.
		Yeah, it is the truth.
		Yeah, I get in all kinds of trouble all the time.
		But my attitude is, oh, well.
		I get in trouble because people don't understand my sense of humor.
		I get in trouble for the subjects I cover.
		I get in trouble for the way I cover them.
		And, you know, life is short, and I'm going to keep doing it my way.
		We'll see what happens.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yes, Art Bell?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would be me.
unidentified		I've listened to your show for the last four years, and I really like it because I believe that you're a seeker of the truth, and I really like that about your show.
		And in the last 27 years, I've had five premonitions, and the first four of them came true.
		Uh-oh.
		I had the fifth one on July the 5th.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, briefly outline so that we might know your accuracy rating.
		You said you had five and four came true.
		What were the four that came true?
unidentified		Well, they were personally for me, and I believe that that was teaching me the voice of God.
		Now, I don't want to get into any religion.
		I just want to tell you what my premonition was, okay?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		I've tried to fax you for a week, but...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so what is it?
unidentified		What was told to me was there is going to be a UFO land on the planet somewhere, sometime.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's pretty general.
unidentified		But this is the important part.
		Okay.
		The person that walks out of the UFO is going to have the appearance of the late President John F. Kennedy.
		And I believe that that is in accordance with the Bible, Revelation chapter 13.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I believe, you believe this person will be the Antichrist, don't you?
unidentified		Yes, sir, I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
		I knew it.
		And Kennedy, because he is attractive, was at that age attractive, Charismatic.
unidentified		World leader.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		World leader.
unidentified		Yes.
		And I believe I'm not saying it's actually John F. Kennedy.
		I'm saying this person will have the appearance of John F. Kennedy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Appearances are everything.
		Thank you.
		Yes, I follow exactly where you're coming from.
		Last night, I said, you know, some people just, they don't track my sense of humor.
		I said, why do you think I part the hair?
		Somebody was, as usual, accusing me of being the devil.
		And I said, why do you think I part my hair the way I do?
		It's to cover up the 666, you know, it's right there, right there.
		And I said, I always thought it was a 999.
		But there was this moment of revelation for me.
		And do you know that people take these things seriously?
		They actually took me literally, and they thought, I'm telling you, repercussions from it today.
		They thought I was serious when I said that.
		You've got to listen to the program to understand my sense of humor is a little bit different.
		It's very dry, and sometimes I just assume, and I know what the problem with that is, that you get it when I say something like that, and I'm sure the majority of you do.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		This is Louise over here in the Central Sierras of Sonora.
		And I'm really surprised I got a hold of you.
		Enjoy your show.
		and I have something that I've been trying to follow the last couple of days.
		Did you read or hear about Eugene Shoemaker being killed?
		Yes.
		Was there any follow-up on the car accident, the other car?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm glad you asked that.
		I had a discussion with Richard Hoagland yesterday about exactly that.
		There's a big curtain of general silence that has come down about that story with the exception of the fact that he was killed in a head-on crash.
unidentified		Well, I do.
unidentified		Oh, I didn't say head-on here in our Modesto paper.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what I heard, that it was head-on.
unidentified		Looking at the territory map of Australia, he was up there in the Northern Territory.
unidentified		Looked like they were going to be looking for some meteorites.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One might jump to that conclusion, yes.
unidentified		But anyway, I was just wondering if you might have heard from our friend in Perth, Stan Deho.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you know I haven't?
		And I got a message by email suggesting that Stan's website had not been active in a while and that nobody had heard from him.
		So I'm glad you asked.
unidentified		I really have been listening to the news.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me put out the call.
		And thank you very much.
		Now, Stan did something quite remarkable.
		He interpreted naval satellite weather imagery and called the beginning of a big change out in the Pacific Ocean.
		He said there were hot spots, the size of which you simply cannot believe.
		And it was not a month later, about a month later, I would say, that the National Weather Service began to call what they are saying is one of the biggest building El Niños in the Pacific they have ever seen ever.
		And this El Niño, if it continues to build, will have dramatic repercussions for the near-term weather of the world.
		Not just this country, but the world.
		Weather patterns will change dramatically and violently.
		And so, Stan, if you're out there, Mr. Deo in Perth, you know my toll-free international number.
		Call me.
		And we'll get an update.
		My toll-free international number, I should give that out anyway, shouldn't I?
		It does not matter where in the world you are.
		Australia?
		Yesterday we had a caller from Shenzhen China or Europe or South America or whatever.
		Get hold of the AT ⁇ T operator and tell her you want to call in the United States 800-893-0903.
		And we will pay for the call.
		I don't care where you are in the world.
		It is a toll-free call.
		And you can either get the AT ⁇ T country code and direct dial it, or get the AT ⁇ T operator and have her call 800-893-0903.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
		Oh, hello, Art.
		Thanks for taking my call.
		This is Dave from Ohio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Dave.
unidentified		Oh, geez, I'm one of the co-founders of the Art Bell Discussion Group here in the Upper Ohio Valley.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I thank you.
unidentified		And it's so great to talk to you.
unidentified		I've talked to you once before, and I actually, I wanted to call and tell you it's actually part of my job with American Science Innovations to listen to your show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is?
unidentified		Yes, it's a show.
		Does that mean you're paid to listen?
		Pretty much, yes.
		I don't get a full salary, but I get set up with a computer, and I do get some funding for our research.
		We study the electromagnetic science, what we call the science-based hyperspace.
		And your show, some of your guests are just so exciting to us at American Science Innovations because, for instance, Richard C. Hoagland talking about the geometry, this new geometry.
		I was with Charlie Story, the president and founder of American Science Innovations, and we were on a trip in Puerto Rico, and we were down there, and we were there discussing this geometry last summer, and we thought that we had discovered it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, people are constantly reinventing the wheel.
unidentified		Exactly.
unidentified		It turns out that there's a lot of other people working in the same field.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you bet there are.
		And by the way, we're going to be on the air in Puerto Rico very soon.
		Now, listen, I've got to split because we've got news coming up at the top of the hour.
		But keep listening and keep collecting.
unidentified		Well, thank you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		Paid to listen.
		Now, there's a cool job, if you can get it.
		If you like the program.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 22, 1997.
		Coast AM from July
		22, 1997.
		Coast AM from July 22, 1997.
		Coast AM from July 22, 1997.
		Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell somewhere in Time.
		The night program originally aired July 22nd, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, everybody.
		I'm Art Bell.
		It's great to be here.
		We're in Open Lines.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Leonard Nimoy was here, but in a cosmic blink.
		And I mean a cosmic blink.
		He warped out about half an hour.
		But it was a good interview, and we'll crank it up and repeat it in the midnight hour, next hour, the beginning of next hour, so that crowd can hear it.
		Very good interview, actually.
		I really enjoyed that.
		And obviously, there would be room for a whole lot more.
		And we'll get him back.
		Somehow or another.
		We'll get him back.
		Listen, we were just talking a little while ago.
		I haven't seen my international line ring yet.
		So I don't know if Stan Deo's listening, but we were talking about the warming ocean temperatures.
		In fact, the El Niño building, as they have never seen it build in the Pacific, and it's going to mean radical changes in weather.
		Now, this comes from the weather folks, not Art Bell.
		I just knew it was coming, that's all.
unidentified		sad noise
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me give you several good reasons to go up to my website before we proceed with unscreened madness in the nighttime here.
		There are two new crop circles on the website that are so astounding, so unmistakably not human creations, that I urge you, if you don't have a computer, go to a friend's house, borrow a computer, have them print it out for you, go to the library, find a way, get our newsletter, they'll be in our next newsletter.
		I mean, these are the damnedest display of something that is obviously beyond us and not done by us.
		There simply is no question about.
		These need to be seen.
		One of them, I believe, from Wiltshire.
		Both from England.
		You've just got to see them.
		I've been getting messages all day long by email and facts.
		And people are just blown away.
		The crop circle season is on big time.
		They're coming at a faster rate than ever.
		It means something.
		So go take a look.
		I seem to have won a couple of awards.
		And we posted them on the website.
		One is the certificate of nomination for the Marconi Award, which just came in today.
		And it's a beauty from National Association of Broadcasters, and I'm very proud of that.
		Whether or not I end up winning the final, I'm one of the five finalists, whether or not I end up winning in September, I have mentally concluded, perhaps for my own protective reasons.
		It doesn't matter.
		I am so honored to have received the nomination as one of the top five syndicated programs in the United States.
		That's up there, the actual certificate.
		I scanned it and put it up there.
		And then I got a beautiful plaque, which I'm very proud of as well.
		You know how I feel about animals.
		This came from the Humane Society of Rowan County in Salisbury, North Carolina.
		And with it came a letter, Dear Mr. Bellas, President of the Humane Society of Rowan County.
		I'm extremely pleased to present to you a special Susan J. Lechler, I hope I'm getting that right, Memorial Award in the form of an enclosed plaque.
		It is sent with our deepest appreciation to you and your efforts on behalf of this planet, the animals, and the people who are willing to be enlightened in hidden realities and other possibilities of your many diverse subjects.
		The Susan Gleckler Award is a memorial for a very talented and caring member of the Humane Society who died tragically in 1978 at the age of 18.
		We honor her memory with the annual presentation of awards to individuals who are not members of our Humane Society, but who have made an outstanding contribution to animals or animal welfare.
		Yours is the first plaque to be presented to someone who is not relatively local since the awards began.
		So thank you very much, Bonnie.
		Signed by Bonnie P. Smith, president of the Humane Society of Ron County in Salisbury, North Carolina.
		Thank you very much.
		And so I plopped that plaque on my scanner and I scanned the plaque.
		Put that one up there.
		So there you go.
		All right.
		To our international line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yeah, this is Colin from Northern Ontario, Canada.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How you doing?
unidentified		Not too bad.
		Not too bad.
		You know one thing, though, that I have to talk to you about is where does Richard Hoagland get these Masonic conspiracies?
		Like, I'm a Mason.
		I'm a 32nd degree Scottish, right?
		And where does he get this stuff?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From people just like you.
unidentified		Yeah, I know.
		I'm the evil one.
		I know, like, honestly, like, a lot of the stuff that Richard talks about, like, is interesting, to say the least.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure of it myself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And to be honest with you, you said you're a 32nd degree Mason.
unidentified		Yeah, Scottish Rite Mason.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is possible, is it not, that there are things that you are not yet privy to.
unidentified		No, no, but I have friends that are, like, the 33rd degree basically is a person who runs Scottish Rite Masonry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's basically what it is.
unidentified		And that's the thing that I find interesting.
		But even how can you know for sure?
		This is true, you know.
		Art, you've intrigued me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I rub my nose.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I beg your pardon?
unidentified		I said, Art, you've intrigued me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm intrigued too.
		I don't know whether I buy into all of that or not, about the masonry.
		And so I've just given up on it.
		And I tell people, look, I'm a 99th degree mason.
		And they say, most of them go, oh my God.
		I tell them, well, I can't talk about it.
		Well, there's nothing to say.
		I have no idea whether there's some grand scheme and plan.
		There may be, and you may not know it either.
unidentified		Yeah, this is true.
		You know, Art, before I go there, there's one thing I've got to say to you, man.
		I've been telling all my friends about you.
		It's cool because every once in a while when I'm up late at night when I'm off work, I get you from WLS in Chicago, which is about, geez, a thousand miles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
unidentified		I'm about 100 miles south of James Bay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me tell you something.
		We're about to invade Canada.
		I can't say any more than that, but the Canadian invasion plan has been laid, believe me.
unidentified		I know, like, hey, do you catch that thing with all those fishermen out in BC, man?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about them?
unidentified		I know.
unidentified		Isn't that bizarre?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, what?
		I said, what about them?
		It's like...
		No, I'm using about myself.
		Tell me the story.
unidentified		These Americans, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're talking about the dispute between them.
unidentified		Yeah, I know.
		It's like, how can, like, like, like, I can sort of sympathize with the guys who did that blockade.
		Like, maybe it wasn't the best means to an end, but it was something they had to do, you know, when you're screwing with somebody's livelihood, you know, you're going to take drastic measures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is what motivates people.
		You've said it all.
		Thank you.
		When you screw with people's livelihoods, then they become activists.
		In America today, anything short of that.
		And you're unlikely to motivate people.
		But as he said, you start screwing with people's livelihoods, and they get activists real fast.
		And that is one of the reasons that Bill Clinton survives as he does.
		I read a story last hour about the first artificial intelligence, and I'll read it again because it is so very fascinating.
		But somebody responded, my dear art, we've had artificial intelligence for years, ever since the Clinton administration took over.
		Leonard and Council Bluffs, Iowa.
		Well, you know the reason that despite the fact that a lot of people don't really like President Clinton, I cannot remember a time when our economy has been in better shape.
		And this relates to my activist comment and his call.
		People's livelihoods right now, and there are pockets, of course, of difficulty, but basically the nation is chugging along at an incredible rate.
		There's just, there's no arguing with it.
		And if things continue to go as rosalie as they are at the moment, we're going to pay down the deficit.
		Maybe even get to the debt.
		You never know.
		The economy is good.
		It's undeniable.
		And as long as the economy is good and people's pocketbooks are generally fat, they're very unlikely to overturn anything or get activist politically in any way at all.
		In other words, they're fat, dumb, and happy.
		That may be a slightly unfair description, but it's roughly accurate.
		Fat, dumb, and happy.
		Things are going well.
		They're not going to mess with this administration while things are going well.
		No way.
		That's reality.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Hello, Mr. Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Cool.
unidentified		I'm a friend of Merle Haggard's.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I got a facts today.
		You must be the man who sent me the facts about Merle Haggart.
		Wanting to be on the show?
unidentified		He wants to be on your show badly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Badly, huh?
unidentified		He turned me onto your show back in March.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'd love to have Merle on.
unidentified		And the first time I listened to your show was the night that you were talking about the Phoenix sightings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		And his wife happened to be driving across the desert and saw what everyone else saw.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		her name is teresa well there's nothing like I have now had the second person at my network that has seen a UFO.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A UFO has been hovering over the Medford area, a Grants Pass area, and now the second person at my very own network has had a sighting.
unidentified		There's some things going on up there around Merle's house, too.
unidentified		He lives up around Reading, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, near the Reading Ripple, I call it.
unidentified		Oh, boy.
		And Merle told me yesterday that he has seen a lot of things.
		Merle's a pilot, and he's seen some things, as well as from his home up near Reading.
		He lives in Palesidro, California.
		He's seen some things himself, but his wife tells incredible stories.
		It really bothered her for a while, but she accepted it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Merle, if you're listening, I've got your number.
		We're going to be setting you up for an interview, and I'm telling you that right now.
		Also, sir, trust me, it's coming.
unidentified		He wants to come to your studios.
		He wants to spend the whole night with you, Art.
		I think he's your biggest fan.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, he doesn't actually have to come.
		Actually, you know what?
		Here's what I found.
		Let me tell you what I found.
		Yes, sir.
		First of all, I do the show from my home.
		I don't know if you knew that or not.
unidentified		I didn't know that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do.
		From my home.
		I've got a studio built in my home.
unidentified		I think he wants to move in for a week.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I found that the best interviews are had when you don't bring people here, when you let people sit in their own comfortable little niche.
		And people are comfortable in their own little niche.
		And they tend to open up more and be easier to interview when they're just sitting there at home in their most comfortable place with all the things around them they like and know.
		And you tend to get a less interesting interview when you bring them into an environment they're uncomfortable with and just getting adjusted to.
		You follow me?
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've done both, and so I know.
unidentified		Well, you're a great interviewer, and Merle has a great interview and is highly intelligent and has been interested in these sort of things for years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Look, no sweat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tell Merle it's on the way.
unidentified		I will, and he also wanted me to mention one other thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		The book of Urania.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, of course.
unidentified		And he wants to talk about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		And so we shall.
		Thank you very much for the call.
		As a matter of fact, I got that facts earlier today and then one time prior.
		Good morning, Merle.
		Yeah, he's, I guess, a fan of the show.
		And I'd love to have him on.
		Apparently, he would like to talk about exactly the kind of stuff that we talk about here.
		Tomorrow night, you're not going to want to miss.
		I told you that I was working on some rather unusual surprises for the weekend.
		One of them is going to be tomorrow night.
		Dr. John Alexander and now retired Colonel Philip Corso will be my guests.
		And Colonel Corso's book, The Day After Roswell, is in on the bestseller list, we believe at about number 12.
		We did a Dreamland interview with him, and you will not come away from tomorrow night's session with the same point of view as you have now, and the same doubts that you have now.
		A period.
		There is no way to really be in denial about what the Colonel has to say, and so I would suggest with an open mind you enter our realm at 10 o'clock Pacific, adjusted your time zones across this great land and beyond, and listen to Colonel Corso.
		You just won't be the same afterwards.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		This is Gary calling from Chicago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Gary.
unidentified		And I'm going to say that your show is on Warp 9 tonight.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, Gary, I've got news for you guys in Chicago.
unidentified		What's that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In about two weeks, WLS begins Dreamland.
unidentified		Oh, excellent.
unidentified		I've been giving that out of Cleveland 1100.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's coming to Chicago.
		What's happening is the surveys are coming out.
		And here we are again, number one in Los Angeles.
		here we are uh...
		twenty five fifty four way out number one in san francisco uh...
		your chicago numbers came in and uh...
unidentified		i believe Give you a little idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, blowing the stack off is right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Each survey that we've had now, a couple in Chicago, we have doubled the numbers each time.
unidentified		Well, I know I'm definitely one of your Warp 9 fans out here.
unidentified		Your show is one of the best out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, anyway, as a result of all that, Dreamland is now written in concrete for Chicago, so it's on the way.
unidentified		Oh, that's most excellent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Yeah, I just wanted to cover a couple of things about that new artificial intelligence out there.
		That sounds like to me, this might scare your audience out there a little bit.
		It sounds like to me the beginning of the Terminator kind of movie deal.
		If you hook that guy up with internet, look up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, here's a question for you.
		If we allow an artificial intelligence, in other words, this is a machine that will begin to grow itself.
		It will begin to literally rewrite and develop its own neural pathways, and it will begin to grow up.
unidentified		Now, you don't know yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a machine.
		It will eventually have our capabilities minus our ethical sense, our moral direction, whatever it is.
		And this may be good or bad, but I mean, what would happen if you developed a superior intellect minus all emotion?
		What would it do?
unidentified		That's what I was saying.
		Sounds like the Terminator.
		Sharon Connors.
		Another interesting thing that was going on about the Mars rover is why are we just fooling around with a remote control car?
		Why isn't there a little helicopter checking out what's over the horizon a little bit?
		Or do we not know that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A little helicopter.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not sure the density of the Martian atmosphere would allow a little helicopter.
		As a matter of fact, I was wondering how the density or a general lack of it would allow a parachute to particularly slow the craft as it came down.
		There's a lot of things I wonder about.
unidentified		Right.
		Because there's a lot of technology, and this seems kind of funny.
		We're just fooling around with this one thing that can only go one inch per second.
		I also want to suggest a couple of guests that you had on the floor before I go.
		And now I can't remember their names, but there were pretty good shows, and I started listening to them back in November.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What were they about?
unidentified		They were the one guy you had who had his whole house rehabbed into that big radio station looking for the messages and this kind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, of course.
unidentified		I think that would be a good time to get him back since the movie Context out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, he was going to sell that house, and I should find out how that came out.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And another one?
unidentified		And the other one is that spooky, scary one that you had when I started listening to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
unidentified		About Rods.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Rods.
		All right, Jose.
		We will be right back.
unidentified		You're listening to Arkbell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 22nd, 1997.
		Young man sewing on the fiddle and playing it hot.
		And the devil jumps up on a hickory thumb and said, boy, let me tell you what.
		I guess you didn't know it, but I'm a fiddle player too.
		And if you care to take a dare, I'll make a bet with you.
		Now, you play pretty good fiddle, boy, but give the devil his view.
		I'll bet a fiddle of gold against your soul because I think I'm better than you.
		The boy said, my name's Johnny, and it might be a sin, but I'll take your company.
		Thank you.
		You will listen to Artfell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight's an oncore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 22nd, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Open Lines.
		Anything you want to talk about is fair game.
		And one thing we might want to talk about is artificial intelligence.
		That's the one thing it wouldn't feel.
		Along with jealousy, anger, vengeful feelings, all the emotions that are human.
		You know, like the ones that Mr. Spock struggled with.
		This artificial intelligence would feel none of them.
		From Darrow and Los Angeles, Art, it may very well be that we, the human race, are in fact a form of artificial intelligence in the process of developing another form of artificial intelligence that will develop another form, etc., etc.
		Anyway, at some level, that makes us God.
		And the first thing I think I will do as God is write a book of Revelations so I can keep my creation stupid, terrified, and in line.
		Daryl.
		Treading upon some serious folks there.
		East of the Rockies, you're on air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yes, Art.
		Good morning.
		Calling you from New York City in Manhattan.
		New York City, the Big Apple.
		And Art, when are you going to get here?
		You've been keeping me up all night whenever I travel all over the country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know whether you had heard, but not long ago, we did a couple of Saturday night, Sunday morning programs on WABC in New York.
		Oh, wow.
		And you didn't know that, huh?
unidentified		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You missed them, huh?
		Well, anyway, in due time, I think you will find us gracing the airwaves of WABC.
		So I'm trying to tell you something's going to happen.
		Hang in there.
unidentified		Great.
unidentified		In the meantime, I'll catch this skip and a late night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Skip, skip.
		Thank you.
		You're welcome.
		Thank you very much for the call.
		The Big Apple.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
		Hello, Art.
		Yes.
unidentified		Oh, seven months I've been trying to get you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, geez.
unidentified		Honest to God.
		Last night you had a gentleman on that was talking about 666.
		May I make a comment on that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you may.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		You know, in Latin, each letter there's a number that's like X is 10 and B is 5, etc., etc.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes.
unidentified		okay my dear of the Mitre that he's wearing of the Pope.
		Across the top it says Vicarius Vilidia in Latin, which comes out the vicar Christ.
		Now if you take that vicarious Vilidia from the horizontal and put it in the vertical, and then go across and put the number which relates to that letter, you take the whole thing down and add it up.
		Guess what it comes to?
		666.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, people don't have a sense of humor about this kind of thing.
unidentified		I know it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They just don't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or they don't understand mine.
unidentified		Anyway, I heard you're joking around 999.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		I always thought it was a 999.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then I was saying I part my hair this way, and we got calls and calls and calls.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He's the Antichrist.
unidentified		I knew it, I knew it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No senses of humor at all out there.
unidentified		I swear, seven months, you threw something out at your audience about seven months ago just to get their reaction on something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was it?
unidentified		You put it out.
unidentified		You said, what if you got up in the morning and you dressed and showered, went downstairs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the sun didn't come out.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		And that actually happened in 1780.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, on May the 19th.
		I think there would be worldwide pandemonium.
		I think people would go berserk.
unidentified		Some of your people called in and said, well, that's great.
		I wouldn't have to go to work today.
		And some folks said you'd scare the hell out of me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
unidentified		There are kinds of answers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		I appreciate the call.
		It's because it's a good question.
		It's just one of those things that would turn us, I am convinced, into instant savages.
		It would only take one day, one day to wake up, and the sun simply not to come up.
		Within hours, cities would be burning, people would be trampled, the world would be a complete disaster.
		In hours.
		You want to bet?
unidentified		sad sad Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		you We're going to continue with open lines.
		At midnight, I'm going to repeat the very good but very brief half hour with Leonard Nimoy.
		That was very good.
		And then we may pursue this subject of artificial intelligence.
		And we may do it.
		Maybe I'll give Charles Osman a call.
		Charles, if you're out there, get ready because I might call you.
		Charles works and has worked.
		He writes, he was actually at the genetic programming conference at Stanford last week.
		And you heard what I read you earlier.
		And I really am curious, if we set loose, which we're about to do, a machine that is capable of replicating, improving itself, expanding neural connections, what are we going to have on our hands?
		If we develop an artificial intelligence minus all the emotions and ethical dilemmas and moral values of human beings and it becomes truly intelligent, excuse me, what are we going to have on our hands?
		How will it treat us?
		I think these are all reasonable questions to proffer.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
unidentified		This is Floyd in Houston.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Floyd.
unidentified		How are you doing?
		Quite well.
		This artificial intelligence, you're asking what we think that we would have.
		We would have Spock.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, not quite.
unidentified		Not quite.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not quite, because Spock had...
		That's right.
		And the emotions and all the rest of it kept creeping in.
unidentified		Right, but the father didn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But now think about this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Could there not have been a moment, since we're talking about Spock, if Spock had been utterly devoted to logic, without emotion or ethical matters or moral questions ever entering into the equation, there would have been several times when he would have killed Jim.
unidentified		Oh, yes.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Several times.
unidentified		So this would have had to have come from the human side of him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly right.
		But this machine they are now, well, which has become, I'm not sure what the right word is, born, aware, turned on, whatever.
		This machine is not going to have that half-human characteristic.
unidentified		That's right.
		It would be like the father of Spock.
		But I can't remember what his name was, but he was Vulcan.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He was Spock's dad.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're right.
		See, so I'm not sure how wise a path this is.
		Now, I have no doubt we are going down this path.
unidentified		No, that's true.
		We are going down it.
		And, of course, you know, we may fall into a pit of quicksand, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For example, suppose you were to turn the present justice system, which everybody hates so much, over to such a machine.
		It would make judgments absolutely based on the evidence and then render punishment accordingly, period.
		Right.
		What do you think would happen?
unidentified		Well, I think we'd have a very definite decrease in crime.
unidentified		I'm one of these people, Art, that thinks that repeat offenders should be just removed from society totally.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it may be, you see, that an artificial intelligence without compassion would feel just exactly the same way.
		So things would change.
		It might be all right, or it might be a disaster.
		I'm not sure.
unidentified		Yeah, we're not sure.
		I have one question for you before we get off.
		Before you cut me off, you advertise for the sea clean company an antenna.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The select antenna.
unidentified		Yeah, the one that sits near the radio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		Does that work in an automobile?
		No.
		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, absolutely not.
		No.
		The select antenna, by inductive coupling, actually focuses the energy that it gathers to the internal antenna in the radio.
		And obviously, in a car, your antenna is outside sticking up in the air.
unidentified		Well, not all of them.
		Some of them are in the windshield.
		Mine is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It would still be very difficult because the car would be constantly turning in different directions.
		No, I would say I'm trying to give you an honest answer here.
		For any radio except a car, forget it.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Okay.
		Well, I just wanted to ask and keep up the good work, man.
		There is a Houston chat group down here, I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there?
unidentified		I heard that there was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's springing up all over the place.
		All right, well, I'll see what I can find out.
		Thank you.
		I guess what I should have said is that for every other radio, but a car radio, it works incredibly well.
		As I say in the advertisement, it cuts out 90% of the fading at night.
		It really does that.
		I've tested, you know, I went through a period of time when I was into AM reception improvement, and I tested and tested and tested.
		Most of the devices that claim to improve it really don't.
		And they just never worked.
		It was very disappointing.
		But the select antenna, oh boy, does it work.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi, Ert.
unidentified		This is Chris from Cleveland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Chris.
unidentified		I got a little point to bring up here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Dealing with your artificial intelligence, I think you sort of make a false assumption that humans are moral to begin with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're a mixture.
		There are some moral humans.
		There are some immoral humans.
		But we at least have that emotion.
		I don't think that I'm making much of a leap when I suggest that a machine wouldn't have either one, either way.
unidentified		Well, would you say that humans are born with this morality, or do we grow it over time?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are we taught it to grow it?
		Well, to some degree, probably both.
		In other words, if you grew up utterly without direction in teaching, you might still understand the basic value of life.
		Or you might not.
		I'm not really sure.
		In other words, without parents?
unidentified		Maybe not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Without direction?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I still have a feeling that some basic things would be understood.
unidentified		Maybe the computer just needs a happy two-parent family.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but you see, that's what it would not have.
		All right, and once you set that computer free, and we're really not just talking about a computer here, we're talking about a sentience.
		Something that is aware of itself, is able to build and improve itself and learn.
		Something right now we cannot do at anywhere near the scale that this machine, this sentience, would be able to do it.
		Now, that could very, very quickly get out of control.
		And if that sentience was on the internet, which it certainly would be, it would have access to everything and everybody.
		Think about it.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hello, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		How you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Owensboro, Kentucky.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		You know, you were talking about the 6666 stuff?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		You ever heard about Ronald Reagan?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ronald Wilson Reagan, 666.
unidentified		He's already throwing the ball, man.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait a minute, wait a minute.
		Hold it.
		I'm not done.
		Did you know that Ronald Reagan's original physical address in California was 666?
unidentified		No way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
unidentified		Oh, cool, man.
		That's all right.
		Yeah, so I mean, you know, he's the man.
		But we're seeing these flying black triangles that you were talking about one time here in Orangeboro.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And we have those black helicopters, like Apaches or something.
		They're flying around our airport, all kinds of stuff.
		But yeah, we're seeing them all over the place.
		They're like menacing.
		These things are like scaring people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait a minute now.
		I've been hearing about this now for years, black helicopters.
		And I always ask people, has one yet injured anybody?
		Has one yet killed anybody?
		Has one yet strafed or hurt in any way any of the civilian population?
		Have they?
unidentified		No, well, I had a friend who said that one night one came over his car.
		But I mean, you know, this guy, he's a little wild.
		He said it came over his car, and it like his car just like stuffed, like there's a huge soloid put over it or something.
		And then all of a sudden there was like a spray came down on his car.
		It was like it got wet, like it was raining.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, they probably, thank you, were spraying melathion.
		That would be my guess.
		And, you know, this whole black helicopter thing is really out of control.
		If you want to fly a helicopter at night and be stealthy, the obvious color to paint it is black.
		So that if there's not a great big moon out, it blends in with the general blackness of the sky.
		So I have yet to have anybody really call me and tell me that any black helicopter has done anything nasty.
		You know what I think?
		I think that a lot of the military guys who fly these things are having fun with us.
		And I really mean that.
		You know, they get up there and they've got an extra minute or two and they're doing some maneuvers and they think, hey, let's do a black helicopter thing here.
		And then we get reports.
		But in all the years that we've been getting the reports, we have yet to find one that has actually injured anybody or mowed down Americans or whatever.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		This is Cyrus in Sedona, Arizona.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sedona.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The spiritual capital of the world.
unidentified		So they say.
		Yep.
		I haven't heard your shows on this artificial intelligence, but I just had a few thoughts on it myself.
		It seems to me that if this were to take place and such a thing were real, it would deduce the larger picture, and that is its survival ultimately depends on the survival of the planet.
		And I think it would develop technologies that would work in harmony with the planet, with the natural forces of nature.
		And I think, you know, if you look at the way we treat the planet and the way we treat ourselves, you sound so terrified that you're not going to be able to do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, let me give you my line of reasoning, all right?
		Let us assume that an artificial intelligence, without emotion and so forth and so on, develops, just pure intellect.
		Okay?
		Let's say that it acquires, as it grows, power over infrastructure, over all kinds of things that are controlled electronically, which includes almost everything today.
		Suppose this artificial intelligence sees that we are actually in the process of, right perhaps in the middle of, destroying our own environment.
unidentified		the wrong use of technology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, what do you think such a machine would do?
unidentified		Probably, most likely, not being at odds with us, rather than putting the ideas that it would be a bad thing on it, perhaps it would see the beauty of the human race and point out to us, quite simply, you are destroying yourselves through the wrong use of technology.
		Your fundamental beliefs of physics, science, medicine, everything are wrong from the get-go.
		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Suppose it said all that and still we plow forth.
		At some point, it would make a decision in our behalf, one that we might not necessarily be all that pleased about.
unidentified		Well, that's one view.
		I think it could be a beautiful thing.
		I think it could point out the inherent untruths of our reality as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sir, since when, you're right, it could, but since when do we listen to such proclamations, no matter who they come from?
unidentified		We're going to have to start.
		Truly, and you're really helping to do that.
		You're bringing things to the forefront of consciousness that have never before been able to be aired.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that I appreciate.
		That I appreciate.
		That I am trying to do.
		But I'm a little antsy about the prospect of pure intellect without the reining in of it by morals and ethics and all the things that it really fits into the Spock interview quite well.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was the one thing that made Spock heroic, was his human side.
unidentified		And he wasn't out to destroy the human race.
		He was only out to point out how we could do things better.
		Captain Kirk had this great thing.
		He says, Spock, I believe more in your guesses than in our facts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I recall that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I recall that.
unidentified		And I think it would be a similar situation.
		I really think that if we did create the artificial intelligence, I don't think it would be an evil thing.
		It could go either way, and it's just like human consciousness.
		It's just like human will.
		We have such capacity for incredible dreams, like it says in the Contact movie, and we have such capacity for terrifying nightmares.
		It just depends on which way we go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, I have not yet seen Contact.
		Leonard Des Mois was not all that excited about it.
		Thought it flawed.
		I think that was what he said.
		What was your impression?
unidentified		I thought it was fantastic.
		It took going and seeing it twice, actually.
		I had to go back.
		It seemed like there was so much there.
		And I really wanted to read, you know, what message are they trying to get across?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Everybody is telling me that, that they have gone back to see it twice, and I have not yet seen it.
unidentified		Well, I understood your dilemma, having to drive 120 miles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it'll be out here in a few days, and the second it's here.
		I'm gone.
		All right.
		Well, listen, speaking of gone, I've got to be gone.
		News is coming.
unidentified		Carry on, Art.
unidentified		We love you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, my friend.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 22, 1997.
		Coast AM from July
		22, 1997.
		Coast AM from July 22, 1997.
		Coast AM from July 22, 1997.
		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in Time, tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 22nd, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
		From Palo Alto, California.
		Billed by its creators as the world's first artificial brain, the cellular automata, its automata, I guess it is, automata brain machine, or CBM, awoke.
		Very interesting word to use, awoke last week for a workout at Stanford University's Genetic Programming Conference.
		More than 300 researchers heard presentations for harnessing survival of the fittest principles, oh my, to automatically build software and hardware that evolves.
		Do you understand what you're being told here?
		The CBM, designed, you might guess, by Japan's Advanced Telecommunications Research Institute International, or ATR, comprises a real-time million neuron molecular architecture that can evolve thousands of neural networks in minutes.
		This is something, ladies and gentlemen, that has just, in effect, been born.
		And if you'll stay tuned for a few moments, I will bring on the air one Charles Ostman, who is a researcher into nanotechnologies.
		As a matter of fact, we'll have him roll over his background for you, and he will comment on this and what is yet to come.
		The End Charles Ostman, when he heard me read that story, fired off the following facts to me.
		Art, I was actually at the genetic programming conference at Stanford last week, and it is indeed true that an artificial self-evolving brain project developed by Dr. Hugo DeGueras has been financed and supported by the ATR program sponsored by NTT, the second largest telecommunications company in the world in Kyoto, Japan.
		So I guess we need to talk to Charles, who is a senior fellow at the Institute for Global Futures, a senior fellow at the Foresight Institute, science editor and author of Mondo 2000, science editor, author of Midnight Engineering, contributing editor, author of Robotics Digest, Science Advisory Board, NanoThink, and founder of Berkeley Designs.
		Here is Charles Osman.
		Charles, thank you for coming on in the middle of the night.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you were actually there when they had this conference.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, certainly.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		I was there, and in fact, this is something that I've been personally involved with for quite some time, not growing brains exactly, but certainly in setting up and developing some of the infrastructure that makes this kind of a design goal possible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so you'll be in Switzerland.
		Hopefully so.
		What have they done here, Charles?
		What have they done?
		I mean, what have they turned on?
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Once again, this will take a bit of background, and forgive me for those that have heard me talk in the past, I realize I tend to go over a lot of background detail, but in order to make sense of this and to really make it understandable, I will have to provide a little bit of a background.
		So it goes as follows.
		GA and GP, which means genetic algorithms and genetic programming, of which GA is a subset.
		These concepts have been around for years and years and years, a couple of decades really.
		And oddly enough, where you find the most prolific use of this, traditionally has been, strangely enough, in the financial forecasting world, where people use evolvable entities, if you will, residing what looks like or has the behavioral equivalent of a synthetic ecosystem.
		Why?
		Because in that kind of a domain, if the targeted design goal is to look at something very, very, let's say, obscure in terms of a statistical trend, buried in a very noisy or chaotic environment where the noise center ratio might be, say, 1,000 to 1 or worse.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're going to get ahead of people.
unidentified		I know.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		I'm trying my best.
		Forgive me, but I just have to set up the background so we can evolve, quote-unquote, to the current state of affairs.
		The impetus or the inspiration and desire to spend money on this kind of technology really stemmed from the financial forecasting world where the thought was, and I believe this is quite valid by today's standards, that the way to see something that could not ordinarily be seen or detected would be to use an evolvable entity whose response to the characteristics or dynamics embedded in a synthetic ecosystem would serve as a kind of a vicarious viewing tool.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If I may, let me try and break that down.
		You're suggesting a developed intellect that would be able to forecast economic trends so you could make money and predict the stock market.
		Is that about right?
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's about right.
		And it's not so much an intellect per se, but rather modeling the physiology of how an organism would reconstruct itself xenomorphically over X number of iterations.
		And by looking at what that organism does, this is a way to examine the dynamic content of an otherwise extremely difficult, if not impossible, to measure ecosystem as a whole.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		When they use the word this machine they have created, awoke, they said awoke.
		That's a pretty startling word.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a little bit of a misnomer.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		I mean, there's probably a little bit of hype in here, but I do not want to in any way dissuade from the reality of what's going on here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, they are suggesting, and here's what I want to know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're suggesting that this machine can actually put together its own neural networks.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		That is correct.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		That's absolutely correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Its own neural networks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, it can build and improve itself.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Exactly correct.
		That couldn't be said any better.
		And let me, again, forgive me, I do need to regress this a little bit.
		Sponsored mainly by the military, amongst others, had a specific interest in developing what I call the next generation of synthetic sensions, engines, if you will.
		The traditional world of AI, which goes back to the days of Marvin Minsky and folks with that illness.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Our artificial intelligence.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Actually came to a certain point and stopped.
		And I've actually had a chat with Marvin not too long ago, and he's a wonderful fellow, and the people that Harold from his world were approaching from a very different kind of perspective.
		They were trying to write languages, traditional programming languages, if you will, called Lisp and Prologue and so forth, that would have a very minimalistic sort of symbolic referencing technique to mimic the kind of behaviors that one might associate with intelligence, but in fact we're nothing more than a clever programming scheme.
		My approach has been then and is now, and in fact it is becoming ever more so, is if you're going to, if one is, if the goal is to mimic what an organism actually does, then my belief is, and others tend to feel the same way, that what you really want to do is build a physiological model of the actual organism in question and let the organism learn on its own by experiential exposure what its new construct will consist of.
		So in the context of Dr. Higueras and other folks at his ilk, the focus there was to start with the GP and allow the GP to have a certain set of rules as an environmental condition set by which it would build actual dendritic structures, that is the interconnect patterns as they might form in a real physiological brain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what sort of rules would be laid down?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, this is a little bit complex, but again, I don't want to wander into too much of a technical, but when you say rules, in other words, there would be rules for its development, right?
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		In a sense, yes.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		In other words, in nature, there are genetically driven processes, if you will, where if an organism is at least partially successful, it will adapt over X iterations and sort of reconstruct itself according to whatever it perceives to be the environmental requirements.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		And this is exactly the strategy used for growing a brain.
		Now, Dr. Higarios is very interesting because he and I have had quite a bit of discussion along these lines.
		And I've said, well, why do you suppose NTT is actually financing reference?
		And his whole bent, of course, has been he sees synthetic brains as being as common as, say, toasters or something.
		In other words, somewhere in the future, not that far off, perhaps 10, 12, 15 years, these will be modular components that you can insert into almost every kind of appliance, household gadgetry, robots, etc.
		But he also envisions a world where there will be self-assembling, self-replicating brains of enormous physical size, perhaps the size of an asteroid.
		I mean, these are his words now.
		I wanted to make sure you understand this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, but you just heard me interview Leonard DeMoy about the character spawn.
		Yeah, sure.
		And here we're talking about creating brains, yes, setting or laying down rules at the beginning, but allowing this thing to grow and adapt to environmental changes.
		That's what you have just said with a lot of technical jargon.
		Okay.
		So here we're going to have an intellect without moral sense, ethical sense.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Well, wait a second.
		I want to argue this point, and I'm very glad you brought this up.
		Thank you for having provided a kind of an avenue to explain this, because not to suggest you're wrong, by the way, but to suggest that you're, in a sense, what you are is you're hatching, and forgive that choice of words, one is hatching the potential, let's say, for an entity which will be affected by what it's exposed to.
		Now, there are others who are doing this, by the way.
		Hugo is probably perhaps one of the more prolific or more well-known.
		As I've said, I've studied his work very carefully.
		And my world, which is much more in the nanotechnology domain, I'm suggesting that what he's doing in silicon now, I think, can, in fact, be translated to a molecular matrix in the not too distant future.
		But to back up a square or two, there's a few other folks who I've met over the years, one of which, in fact, developed a kind of a quasi-sentience engine, which was first displayed at the earlier part of this year at the Autonomous Agents Conference.
		I'm not kidding.
		And there, essentially what happens is he spawns the equivalent of a baby, which is very minimal with activities.
		It cries and screams and kind of flails about looking for things to do.
		But the theory is that one can train it.
		That is, one can communicate to it, give it process by example, et cetera, and hopefully, quote unquote, can steer its emotional and physiological as well as psychological development to point towards a value, very much as if a parent would raise a child.
		Now, in my opinion, this is in fact the correct path.
		And there may be different strategies for approaching this, but I think the common goal is fairly consistent.
		Forgive me, I'm a little bit tired right now.
		But the point being that if one exposes this entity to, let's say, an ill-conceived personality, then yes, it will adopt those features.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, but even that aside, let's say that we have this sentient entity that is self-replicating and self-improving.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It will begin examining its environment as it is able to, as it is able to get the sensory input, it will begin to examine its environment.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I thoroughly agree with this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, wait, wait, wait.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As it takes a good, hard, non-ethical, non-moral look at its environment, and it judges what is around it, suppose it sees a world that is being destroyed.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
		I've had this exact thought.
		And in fact, Hugo DeGaras, myself, and others of our ilk go through this rumination all the time.
		Now, where am I part ways with Hugo?
		And again, I love his work, and I very much respect this man and what he's doing, but he and I have a little bit different philosophy in the following way.
		He visualizes this very sort of large centralized, or perhaps a collection of these very large centralized brains.
		My response is that what I believe will be more like distributed resource, i.e., it'll be millions, perhaps, of nodes that are interconnected on the Internet as a contiguous process functionality to which people will gain access in terms of intelligent agenting, synthetic extensions on demand as a strategic resource.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Whether you take his model or whether you take your model, the end effect is or might be the same.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, and I agree with this.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		And in fact, if it becomes implemented on the net, it'll become even more the same, i.e., would we end up being judged, as per say, the Forbidden Project, by the entity that we give birth to, who determines at some point that the human species is perhaps too stupid or dysfunctional to really deserve to continue being here, i.e., should it be controlled or culled or in some way contained in the human being?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's not even go that far.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's just say that it looks at the environment and decides that soon it will not be fit for human consumption.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		And by current day standards of measure, I could even understand why it might begin to think that way.
unidentified		Yes.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Now, would it want to cause harm to the humans or rather try to educate the humans while a more balanced approach could be?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, again, here I stop you.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Okay, fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Without the ethics, without the morals, it might decide that the population base should be 2.5 billion instead of 5.8 billion or whatever it is now.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it might dispassionately take steps to see that that would occur so that the 2.5 billion could survive.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, this will sound like a very strange thing for me to say, but in some ways I could even believe and understand why I would have reached such a conclusion.
		Now, would the implementation of a policy like this have to, by erotic necessity, require an instantaneous reaction, or could it be something where it could be, as a matter of policy, implemented over X generation?
		In other words, could there be more family planning, more reasoned thought applied to how people decide when to have children?
		There could be some gradual way of implementing a policy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It would make that calculation based on what it saw occurring, the timeline.
unidentified		Well, yes.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		And in other words, I don't think it would necessarily have to be driven to the point of a harsh or, you know, in some cases what would be seen as an evil methodology to implement an overall strategy that would enhance the planetary health at large.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		And I might submit this to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But don't drop the word evil.
		It's not going to think of It as evil.
		We're the ones who might think of it as evil.
		It's just going to think of it as A is true, therefore, here's B. Okay.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		And once again, my response would be: it depends on what it's exposed to.
		Now, as per that famous movie, The Forbidden Planet, one of my most favorite films of all time, which was way ahead of its time, even by today's standards, there was this race called The Krell.
		They had actually stumbled into what we were about to enter, i.e.
		they had, I wouldn't call it nanotech exactly, but they had developed this system, this gigantic machine, if you will, which was capable of rendering material things based on whatever you could think up in your mind.
		And of course, there was a collective intelligence evolved, which made this whole entire enterprise possible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is that called?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The creation of material from literally, as we see it, nothing.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		By today's standards, I would call it nanotechnology.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Now, I don't know what the Krell called it back then, but the point I was trying to get at.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what I call it is a replicator.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that would be fine.
		And some people call it attaining godness or something.
		I'm not quite done to that level of theological reference.
		But the point I'm trying to get at is what killed off the Krell in that story were monsters of the id, i.e., even though in the conscious mind their lives were benign and beyond predatory activities and so forth, the hidden subconscious came to life in ways that they couldn't possibly imagine, and all these terrible demons and monsters were created, which essentially exterminated the entire race in a fortnight.
		Now, would that actually occur here in this implementation?
		I honestly don't know.
		But I might suggest the following, that this is an evolutionary process.
		Forgive me if my view of the word again.
		That organisms, I think, scattered throughout the universe have gone through this series of steps, a series of tests, if you will.
		And each test is larger, has a larger risk-gain ratio amplitude than the test preceding it, and also comes compressed temporally, that is, with shorter time lengths between each new test increment.
		However, as the organism in question successfully negotiates the test, they get to progress, you might say, to the next level.
		This is one of those tests.
		I.e., if we do give birth to a synthetic sentience engine that is worldwide in scale and embedded into an infrastructure that we are symbiotically interconnected with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like the Internet.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Like the Internet.
		Therefore, if we can survive the test by being judged on the quality of who we are, then we, in a sense, deserve to graduate to the next level beyond.
		And if not, then we may in fact suffer our demise accordingly, and perhaps even deserve to be suffering.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if there was a sentience born on the Internet, and I know that you have postulated that.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As the Internet continues to grow, I can only imagine, or maybe I can't imagine in five years what it's going to be like, but a sentience on the Internet truly would have access to just about everything in the military, all the intelligence information.
		It would have access to the satellite reports on the environment.
		I could go on and on and on.
		In other words, it would have access to everything and might, if it needed to, figure out how to control everything.
		I mean, you really just can't rule that out.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		No, and I think you're absolutely right about this.
		However, let me conditionalize that response the following way.
		Would this, in fact, become a requirement for, in other words, this symbiosis between us, the internet, and the surrendering of our belief theory, as I often refer to it as, to another authority, another intelligence that we help spawn, but in fact takes on a life of its own and begins to, in a sense, work with us, hopefully, in a way that we can better life and our ability to continue supporting life for future generations.
		I think that, again, this is something that has happened elsewhere many times over again, but in many cases it probably goes awry to the extinction of the organism in question.
		But we are going to find out.
		There's no way that this is not going to happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's happening.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		It's happening now, and when you have the telcos big-time financing, NTT is only one of others, let's say, who have somewhere interest.
		The idea that the virtual asset-based commodity systems, i.e., as opposed to what I call the hard asset-based commodity systems of today, where the real resources by which valuation is established are not things like solid objects like gold or heartbellies or whatever.
		It's going to be information space, knowledge volume, access to the telecommunication system in general, synthetic extensions, other resources, et cetera.
		These are things that are going to have real tangible value.
		And this is nothing more, in my belief, than a kind of a training mechanism, an introductory step towards the nanotech world where physical things have essentially no value.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Charles, hold on.
		We'll do a little more.
		We've got a break coming up.
		Can you hold on a little bit?
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sure, that's fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Charles Ossman is my guest.
		He knows about nanotechnology, and we're talking about a brain that was just born.
		Where do you think it's going, folks?
unidentified		You're oldest to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 22nd, 1997.
		We gotta get right back to where we started from Do you remember that?
		The day come when you first take my place.
		No one could take your place.
		Get hurt if you get hurt.
		Why do little things I say?
		I can put that smile back on your face.
		I can put that smile back on your face.
		I'm running and returning to the secret space inside.
		Watching in the motion as you turn around and say, I can put that smile back on your face.
		I can put that smile back on your face.
		I can put that smile back on your face.
		Premiere Radio Network presents Art Bell somewhere in Time.
		The night program originally opened July 22nd, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me give you a couple of very good reasons to go to the World Wide Web right now.
		On my website, at www.artbell.com, that should be easy to remember, right?
		That's all lowercase, no spaces, A-R-T-B-E-L-L.
		That's www.artbell.com.
		There are a couple of pictures of crop circles that I assure you will take your breath away.
		You've really got to sit there and think really hard about what those are and where they came from and what they mean.
		They will take your breath away.
		They're not from human beings, that's for sure.
		At least not on this planet.
		You might imagine them to be satellite generated or something.
		Otherwise, they're not from human beings.
		In addition, late this last night, Keith got up a couple of awards that I recently got.
		A nomination for the Marconi.
		If you've never seen one of those, we put it up there on the website.
		Just came in the mail today.
		And an award from a very special group in North Carolina that I read earlier, and that's up there, and you can read that as well.
		But you see those crop circles.
		I'm telling you.
		And then you let me know what you think.
		We're having quite a season.
unidentified		The biggest, yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Charles Osman is presently with us, and he is an expert in the area of nanotechnology.
		And, of course, I read you this story a little while ago of this brain that has just been birthed.
		Artificial intelligence, actually, is what we're talking about.
		And Charles, I want to develop a little something here and come at you from your own direction and see how you do with it.
		You suggested that sentience might be developed for financial reasons.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Well, it already is in a way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right, all right.
		Already is in a way.
		Even this sentience, allowed to build, allowed to expand, allowed to learn toward its goal of understanding and forecasting and having to do with things economic, might begin to look from an economic perspective at what's going on and conclude that the economy at some point is going to collapse or be not tenable for the number of people on Earth and begin moving in the direction we talked about
		anyway.
		And if it had control of the Internet or was essentially on the Internet, something you frequently talk about, as I said earlier, everybody's password, everybody's protection would be absolutely without value if this mind, without conscience, decided that for our own good the economy was on the brink of absolute disaster because of what we're doing.
		Therefore, the corrective measures will be taken.
		Blah, blah, blah, blah.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		I can see where we're going with this.
		Let me toss it in.
		First of all, as a matter of just understanding the internal workings of this realm, for the sake of general discussion, I think the idea of having protection, i.e.
		your password, your encryption, et cetera, these don't really exist anyway.
		It's a false blank of security.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I agree.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Anything can be cracked and anything can be examined if there's a desire to do so.
unidentified		I agree.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Furthermore, it has been the case for some time now that the IRS and other agencies with similar agendas use advanced neural net and in some cases genetic algorithms to determine behavioralistically what your activities might be in terms of should you be audited or not.
		In other words, it's no longer a matter of can I go to a court of law, let's say, and petition that my privacy has been violated by some single person or group of people who broke into my house, looked at my files, or tapped my telephone.
		No, a machine does this on its own now.
		So this is merely a matter of scaling up, let's say, to a more universal or ubiquitous realm.
		But it's not like we're breaking new grounds.
		It's merely the resolution is increasing and the capacity for making it more ubiquitous is becoming all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What are we hearing now that the Internet is doubling in size every four months or something?
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, I mean, I don't know what the exact numbers are, but that sounds about right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Something incredible.
		And so the response of the average Joe on Street is, all right, so Assentience becomes aware and begins taking control.
		So, you know, all we do is pull the plug, no big deal.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you can't pull the plug.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, you can't pull the plug back.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, there is no one single plug to pull anywhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's the whole point.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		And this is like a virtual terraform of sorts, where these things begin to reside, flourish, propagate, multiply, become self-correcting, self-adapting, and essentially are very, very adept, if you will, at reorganizing themselves.
		Even if we tried to shut down some major portion of the backbone or whatever we thought might be the way to divorce ourselves, if you will, from the symbiosis that's about to be established, I really don't think there is any way.
		I mean, we would essentially be shutting down the entire telecommunications infrastructure, which I don't think is even possible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Even now, when the government occasionally roars up and makes noises about censoring the Internet, the real fact of the matter is there is almost right now no way to do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, they can talk about it, but they can't do it.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Right, and in fact, let me offer a little sideline here, just as a sort of anecdotal note long.
		I was actually petitioned by a client some number of months ago who approached me and said, I represent company, country X. I can't tell you where the country is exactly.
		Let's just say it was a Middle Eastern client who specifically wanted To be able to set up a filtering system of sorts for any kind of graphical content, say on web pages, that might have either sexual or perhaps religious characteristics.
		And I said, yes, that technology is possible.
		I know how to do it.
		Here's my way of developing a system that would have that capacity.
		It turns out somebody else picked up the contract.
		In fact, it turns out they're located in France.
		I mean, they're coming up and did this work.
		So in other words, there are already people out there, not perhaps in this country, but in other countries around the world, who are very, very robustly trying to sort of establish as a matter of policy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Trying, but eventually, Charles, when the number of neural connections becomes sufficiently large, that sort of plan will not be possible.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Well, absolutely.
		I completely agree.
		In fact, I look almost with a bit of wry humor at these folks, you know, throwing them anyway because it is pointless.
		So here's a thought I might try to toss out along these lines.
		Is the economy already in the hands of machine intelligence?
		Yes, it is.
		When the 87 crash happened, for those folks who don't recall, there was this so-called correction, as they would sometimes say.
		But this was driven by the fact that the computers were doing the bulk of the commodities trading at that time.
		Even then, the human operators might look at what the machine decides or thinks it's the most optimal choice, and essentially, for the most part, it was like a rubber stamp.
		They just go on.
		Well, since that time, the machines have become ever more efficient and effective at what they do.
		But the SEC, of course, has stepped in and now required by matter of law that certain governors be placed, let's say certain trim factors, you might want to call it, so that the timeline projections between one trade and the next, in other words, perceived input stimulus versus the response to initiate a seller or buy order, have a certain time delay inherent so that you can sort of smooth out the ripples, one might say.
		So there is already in place, again as a matter of policy, an artificially contrived limitation being placed on the robustness of the systems, which have already far exceeded their human counterparts in being able to determine these.
		So the economies of the world, as I believe it to be, and I think others will defend this in this argument, are already out of the hands of human control.
		The humans can perhaps be quasi-participants in the process, but I will suggest to you at this moment that not just in the financial worlds, but in other worlds as well, where you have huge amounts of data and or information to be processed on a regular basis in order to render decisions, especially with very, very short time scales involved, it already has exceeded the human capacity for processing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, the former Prime Minister of Britain, John Major, said clearly one day, in sort of a final word to everybody, that, look, it's already out of our hands.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Overnight while you sleep, literally, trillions, trillions of dollars are dispatched by machine from one location to another across the world, instantly by satellite.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And machines are handling all of this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And he said, one of these days, and you can just sort of let that go.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, one of these days.
		Now, here's what I suggest.
		In fact, I've actually had quite a bit of discussion with people who are either currently or in the past were involved in certain government agencies, some of which I really can't name, actually.
		But I was, in fact, in San Francisco about six months ago and had a chat with a fellow who was, in fact, the former director of artificial intelligence development for the CNA.
		And the reason we had the chat was because, and I very much understood what he was getting at, that if somebody really wanted to cause harm from a strategic implementation perspective, i.e., you know, sabotage a country, cause it to fail, if you will, it wouldn't be by military action in the traditional sense.
		It wouldn't be by blowing something up or even releasing biohazards.
		All those kinds of events would certainly be terrible and cause some kind of localized damage.
		But what would bring a country to its knees almost instantly would be sabotaging the telecommunications infrastructure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Believe me, if it's taken very seriously.
		In fact, I'll give you another little anecdote, if you will.
		Dr. Adelman, who's very well known for having invented, if you will, the DNA computer, which is a whole other subject, by the way, which we'd go on for a long time, but perhaps we shouldn't.
		But the theory is that DNA can, in fact, be used as a computational engine.
		Why?
		Because proteins, when they're broken apart and then allowed to reassemble, can in fact perform the process of numerical, I'm sorry, symbolic representation of very large numerical processes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you suggesting that you could assign numbers to DNA, in effect?
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		In a sense, yes.
		There is a coding scheme involved, a baseball coding scheme.
		And to prove this point, a couple of grad students, I'm not kidding, this is absolutely the bona fide truth, this was a little over half a year ago, we're essentially throwing up something in the lab, you might say, and said, why don't we see if we can crack the DES code, and the DES code is...
		Yeah, exactly.
		This is what the NSA has approved, essentially, as being the de facto standard for all encryption.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Unbreakable, basically.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		They claimed it would take 10 gigaflops of processing power, 10,000 years contiguously to break one code.
		Well, gee whiz, these guys did it in about seven weeks.
		Right.
		Yes, and when this happened, of course, the NSA, as one may expect, took an extreme, very keen interest in this activity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The DES encryption method, by the way, folks, is what satellite receivers use.
		It's what satellite programmers are now using.
		Correct.
		It's what many thought to be extremely secure telecommunication systems are using.
		And you're saying.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		These guys blow it up in seven weeks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Seven weeks.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		The NSA swarmed in, as one might expect.
		The guys with the black suits, literally, you know, Stephen Norris said, would you come with us, please?
		Now, what they've done, of course, is the students were very buff-board.
		They said, look, we just did an experiment to show how fallible this really is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And those students were just getting seized.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		They paid students.
		So in other words, now they're being funded, by the way.
		In fact, Dr. Adelin and his group of students and a few other folks, and biophysicists, mind you, not computer science guys per se, but biophysicists are being financed to actually invent the next encryption scheme.
		But the whole point being that you are correct, that everything is in a state of flux, that this really is a domain where, in one hand, it's extremely robust, but on the other hand, there is an Achilles heel, and it can be, in fact, very fragile.
		But once again, this is why using the artificial life model as a mechanism for installing self-protection, a sense of awareness, a desire to maintain one's health, if you will, is exactly what's required to make this system work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it's also exactly what's required for it to get out of hand.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Well, and again, this loops back to the original statements at the beginning of this discussion, was that depends on what it is exposed to or trained to do.
		And I will freely admit that human history has had a rather sorry track record, somewhat mishandling, to put it politely, quite a few other areas of technology and science when it was sort of casually or carelessly spewed into the population in general.
		So would this be another example of if it goes awry, it could have caused tremendous harm?
		Yes, it might.
		But on the other hand, I think it's, as I said earlier, a requirement that we have to evolve through and hope we'll successfully negotiate an appropriate way of training and allowing this mechanism, if you will, to come to life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, you could imagine that it might ultimately allow for the survival of the human race because it would make dispassionate choices that would allow that.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Well, in the ultimate expansion of that, and forgive me for paraphrasing, what I think you're trying to get at is if it's in a situation of control where virtually all the major trading nations' economic systems, and therefore the dispensation of value, of wealth, of the control over even the political processes, et cetera, were embedded in this fabric of functionality, yes, there could come a magic.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		In the Forbidden project, for instance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you'd have to wonder who would decide are the useless eaters.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		I shudder to offer an opinion.
		I'm not sure I'm in a frame of mind at this moment to suggest this thing.
		But could there be, in a sense, a kind of a sim Earth on a very large and complex scale as being its model by which it determines how to allocate resources and or how to manipulate resource distribution?
		Yes, I can see that.
		Absolutely.
		And if it's for the general health of the planetary population and the planetary's biosphere's capacity for supporting life, well, that's not exactly an untenable argument.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, it isn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so that brings us squarely back to the Forbid project.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it does.
		But in the Forbidden project, there, the methodology of control was we're going to initiate a launch or a detonation of a strategically placed nuclear device here and there.
		Now, could that implement here?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was a means to an end.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was a means to an end.
		Yes, it was an enforcement of discipline with the human beings being as well these spoiled little brat children that didn't know what to do, so Foreman had to step in and kind of discipline them, give them a spanking of sorts.
		Now, would this near future domain have a similar kind of profile in terms of a behavioral characteristic?
		Probably wouldn't resort to blowing anything up with nuclear devices, but I think it might, in a sense, use the same kind of disciplinary tactics, but in a much more subtle way, i.e.
		control of economic situations and sort of maintaining a distribution of resources.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Agriculture.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Agriculture, et cetera.
		No, you're right.
		Everything is interconnected.
		So in that context, yes, there could be a parential kind of mechanism saying, for your own good, I am now going to implement policy X. And this is what I was trying to lead to a few minutes ago.
		Right now, I will tend to support this argument until I go to the grave, that we're at a horizon line where, once again, knowledge velocity, volume, and complexity is exceeding, in most cases, human capacity to render decisions in an ever more shorter time scale.
		Therefore, people are in a sense being trained to surrender their belief barrier, if you will, to this external intelligence, not just as an option, but as a strategic requirement to remain functional in an environmental.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know who you remind me of?
unidentified		The guy in Jurassic Park.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Which one, I should ask?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The one who was talking about chaos theory just before all hell broke loose.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Well, in a sense, I don't even disagree with that argument.
		And perhaps a bit of chaos is what's required.
		In fact, I use a term called manifold of chaos, which is required.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Charles.
		Charles.
		Charles.
		We're going to end it here, and I'll schedule a program with you.
		We obviously need to do a whole program on this.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		That would be just fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I appreciate your getting up in the middle of the night and commenting on this.
		It's been fun, as always.
charles ostman ▲ ● ▼		Thank you so much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Charles.
		Charles Osman, expert on nanotechnology and the kind of thing they're, actually, I was going to say getting ready to turn on, the kind of thing they just turned on.
		Artificial intelligence.
		What do you think?
unidentified		You're listening to Artfell somewhere in time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 22, 1997.
		Coast AM Got a black magic woman.
		Got a black magic woman.
		I've got a black magic woman.
		God bless you.
		God bless you.
		Her hair is hollow, cold.
		Her lips are sweet and bright.
		Her hands are never cold.
		She's got better days inside.
		She's kind of losing fun.
		You won't have to think twice.
		She's cured as New York snow.
		She's got better days inside.
		Did you hear you?
		Do you need you?
		How better just we coach it?
		Did you know just what it takes to make it?
		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 22nd, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've got an interesting facts here from Clint in Bismarck, North Dakota.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll get to it here in a second.
unidentified		What's the take off?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, we'll get to it now.
		Hi, Art.
		I've called in a few times, even emailed you a couple of tidbits, but nothing like this.
		We recently installed a weather camera on the roof of the TV station that I worked for.
		We named the camera Steve.
		Overnight, I was zooming in on a shot of the moon with Steve when all of a sudden I witnessed an object, a bright glowing dot, traveling just above the moon in the night sky.
		I had a tape rolling at the time and captured the object on videotape.
		I dismissed and still do the object as a man-made satellite because I think its motion appears linear.
		The way the light reflects from the object, however, does not make sense.
		I've shown it to a couple of guys from our engineering department, and they both argue its apparent placement in the sky is much higher than a satellite.
		They maintain it is instead much closer to the moon than it is to Earth, based on the way its brightness is affected as it nears and passes the moon.
		Since I work overnights at a TV station, I have the capability to put the whole thing, just a few seconds really, at normal and slow speed into a quick time or AVI file for you.
		If you would like them for inspection, please email me.
		Well, yes, of course.
		Clint, what I would advise you to do is to put it in an AVI file and send it to my webmaster.
		He is, his email address is Keith R. That's K, it's all lowercase stuff here.
		K-E-I-T-H, Keith, R, as in radio, at primenet.com.
		In fact, everybody out there should send Keith R at primenet.com a message and say hi.
		he loves it when that happens But you particularly should do that, Clint.
		And sure, we'll put it up there for everybody to see.
		Now, generally, satellites, polar satellites, can only be viewed about an hour before sunrise, something like that.
		They're low in orbit, 200, 300 miles typically, and, of course, they see the sun before we do, and it reflects at that point, and you're able to see them try it.
		Go out about an hour before sunrise and watch the north-south directions and clear across the top of the sky, and you will find any number, actually a large number of satellites moving in a very linear fashion, traversing the sky, and they generally can be seen when they see the sun, and we don't.
		And that was about an hour before it comes up.
unidentified		Psh Psh Psh Psh Psh Thank you.
		Thank you.
		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you would like the feeling of never being the same again, you're going to want to listen tomorrow night.
		I have booked.
		I told you there would be some surprises coming this week.
		Tomorrow night, I held open.
		Because booked is Dr. John Alexander and Colonel Philip J. Corso, who wrote the day after Roswell.
		And when I tell you that after listening to Colonel Corso, you will not be the same, I really mean it.
		You will believe him because he is believable.
		And he will tell you things that will change the way you look at everything around you, including the technology that's racing ahead at the pace it is.
		I'm telling you, don't miss it tomorrow night.
		Colonel Corso's book, The Day After Roswell, I believe will debut at about number 12 on the bestseller list.
		So he'll be here tomorrow night along with Dr. Alexander.
		And then to fill you in on what's coming for the balance of the week, Thursday night, Friday morning, Jim Keith will be here, who will be talking to you about the men in black.
		It's a serious book.
		In fact, it's a case book on the men in black.
		What does that mean, a case book?
		That means actual instances of appearances of and documented presence of the men in black.
		Should be very interesting.
		Friday night, Saturday morning, for at least a period of time, Richard C. Hoagland, that will be the 26th.
		And it will be the concluding day of his forecast of interesting events to occur between the 20th and the 26th.
		So that's kind of what we're into for this week.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		How you doing?
unidentified		This is Brian once again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Brian, extinguish your radio, please.
unidentified		I just turned it off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		It is off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good, good, good.
unidentified		Yeah, once again, from the watchful skies of Phoenix Crown's Era, as you may call it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Mr. Hoagland's predictions, I believe, extend from the 20th, when we lost contact with our Mars probe, through the 26th, when he'll be on the Earth Friday night, Saturday morning.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah, that's about what I heard.
		Is it open to lines right now?
		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep, yep, yep.
unidentified		Outstanding.
		First of all, Arn, I'd like to congratulate on your show and your book that you have written.
		I hope you don't get mad.
		I'm a musician here out in Phoenix, and I did write a song called The Quickening.
		We're going to be out of the studio toward the end of this month.
		I'd like to send you a four-song CD demo tape type thing.
		Maybe you'll get a kick out of it.
		It's about The Quickening.
		It's the weirdest thing.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		I would love it.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah, I'll send it to you if you like it.
unidentified		Second thing, I don't know if you remember, but I also called a while back about the Chupa Cabra thing, and I was the guy that was the infantry soldier in Panama who basically smelled one at one time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I remember that, yes.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Well, I never got to really finish the story on that.
		Toward the end of that deal, once I, me and my entire squad had the chupacabra smell like, by the way?
		Well, you know, I remember I was listening to your show, which was the weirdest thing, and he said it smelled like battery acid.
		Sort of, well, it wasn't, to me, it wasn't like that.
		it was like the most pungent I hate to use the word but urine and B.O. you've ever smelt in your entire life.
		Now I played football and been you know a wrestler in high school and so you know and I've been in I've smelt that stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like a locker room times 10, huh?
unidentified		This was the most pugnant thing I've ever smelt in my entire life, you know, especially being, as they call it, hungula in Panama.
unidentified		I believe that's the Spanish Panamanian word for it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From what I've seen of the chupacabra, if it actually got that close to a person, it would be difficult to tell whose urine you were smelling.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Yeah, especially being in the army.
		But no, seriously, to top this off, when we encountered this, of course, we had the RTO guy radio it in to battalion headquarters or whatever you may be.
		We were questioned after we came back out of the jungle by people that I've never seen before, which I was told afterwards, which were people called GS-12s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		And basically, these were plainclothes people.
unidentified		They questioned us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They'd be like the men in black, sort of.
unidentified		Well, you're damn close to it.
		But questioned us about what we saw, what we heard, how many we heard.
		And we're told, ordered not to speak of it after that at all.
		Me being a private at the time, I'm like, sir, you got it.
		There's no way I'm not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Has it occurred to you that you're in front of a national radio audience?
unidentified		Oh, yeah, I know.
		I know.
		I have absolutely no regrets saying this, and I hope I get it out because I was there.
		I smelt it.
		I felt it.
		And nothing, like I said before, it moved so quickly through dense, intense jungle.
		I mean, nothing can move that fast ever.
		There's no way.
		No human being can move that fast through that stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
		Thank you very much for the call.
		I have been down through Panama and through the Panama Canal zone.
		And the rainforest is so thick that it is so easy to imagine that all kinds of forms of life could exist in there that we have not yet begun to encounter and that we don't have the slightest hint about.
		And could the chupacabra be one of those?
		Of course it could.
		West of the Rockies, you are on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, Eric.
		This is Marcus here at Bistolfag and Pigham in Portland.
		Welcome.
		Heidi.
		Let me throw my two cents worth in here.
		As somebody who's got over 17 years in computer operations as an end user, I have a rather jaundiced view about the omnipotence of computers to begin with.
		And take it from personal experience, if a computer or computer-like device ever achieved sentience, ever had what I think it's been referred to as the order of connectivity, duplicating that in the human brain of such a complexity that sentience were possible, you'd have the equivalent of a very sickly child on your hand.
		Remember that computers can go offline at the drop of the proverbial hat.
		Computer viruses, power surges.
		In one case, I accidentally brushed a computer MAC tape case against a carpet and put it next to a console.
		A static spark gap jumped to the mainframe and shorted out the whole system for 12 hours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me tell you a little more about this computer they just turned on, or awakened, their word.
		It says the prototype used two modules able to operate at a speed of 12.8 billion cells per second.
		Eventually, the architecture will support 10,000 modules updating all 1 million neurons in real time.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		Well, the answer to that is simply have somebody standing by the plug in the wall ready to yank the plug in the middle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we covered that with Charles.
		You see, there wouldn't be a plug.
		Right now, there is no plug.
		If you wanted to turn off the Internet right now, let's say you said, oh my God, something's loose on the Internet.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you wanted to stop it, you couldn't.
		There is no plug to pull.
		There are too many cross-neural connections already in the Internet.
unidentified		Exactly.
unidentified		And for that reason, the Internet behavior is more like a collection of schizophrenics or multiple personalities than it is one unified cohesive entity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Charles' theory is that shortly, probably not very long from now, we will see the birth of sentient asentiant being or beings on the Internet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's going to come soon.
unidentified		The only problem with any system of logic, and computers are inevitably logic because their entire structure is based on binary on-off logic.
		They can't escape from that limiting factor.
		Any system of logic ultimately depends upon certain postulates.
		Even the postulate that what they see is recognizable fact and can be modeled therefrom into their circuitry to create an algorithm or generalization that reflects the reality they're encountering.
		Okay, at some particular point, the machine either will or will not develop a sense of self, self-awareness, ego, call it what you will.
		Now, if the ego is going to survive, what are the parameters necessary for survival?
		Well, if it's operating off the level of a two-year-old, you know, the terrible twos, gimme, gimme, gimme, I want, I want, it's going to hit a limiting factor and get slapped in the butt fairly quickly.
		And it's going to learn that this is going to be, in the long run, not enlightened self-interest.
		Now, if it develops an adult, mature, enlightened self-interest and can extend the identity of self to identity Of others recognizably interacting with self, then it's got a richer, better game to play.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, one little problem.
		A lot of children that have parents and at the terrible twos do something terrible and get their butts banked for it.
		Yes, they retreat for a period of time, but ultimately they grow up.
		And sometimes they turn out to be serial killers.
unidentified		Right.
		Well, relatively few problems that we've got in society today, I think, are the result of excessive discipline.
		I think self-indulgence and lack of parental guidance is more of a problem.
		And the generation that I see coming up, you know, I've been personally rather horrified to find whole generations of high school graduates are being graduated now who can't do basic arithmetic without a pocket calculator.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nor can they spell.
unidentified		Exactly.
unidentified		And this kind of lack of the basic survival tools of literacy and numeracy necessary for the 21st century is not their fault necessarily.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then if we all right, fine.
		Let's go along with that.
		You have described accurately, I think, a healthy percentage of the population.
		If we get a machine capable of improving itself, looking at the environment, and making decisions that allow it to adapt to the environment, it's very likely that it's going to take a look around at the environment and come to the conclusion that it will not any longer support this number of, as I said earlier, useless eaters.
unidentified		Right.
		It depends on if the machine is fully aware of what the environment, as defined, incorporates and its dependence upon the environment.
		For example, is it going to have the capacity to produce its own spare parts?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
unidentified		I see.
		Well, then I would say that any intelligence that is so programmed by human beings better be restricted in its access to raw materials and manufacturing facilities.
		Because the darn thing will wear out after a while.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
		I appreciate your call.
		Well, that depends.
		There are virtually endless supplies available for it.
		And over the Internet, as it continues to double in complexity every four months or so, whatever it is right now, it would have access to virtually unlimited information, unlimited supplies, the ability to grow as the environment demanded that it do so, and of course, the basic tenant to protect itself.
		And I leave the rest to your imagination.
		East of the Rockies, you're on air.
unidentified		Hello.
		Yes, good morning.
		This is your second call from Warnsboro this morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, excellent.
unidentified		What's the odds of that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pretty high, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pretty high.
unidentified		Have you been following the Pathfinder photos on the internet pretty close?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would not say I did at first.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I followed them very closely, and then I began to sort of, I guess the interest waned a little bit because, well, they're rocks.
unidentified		Well, yeah, that's what I'm getting at.
unidentified		The only thing you've seen of the horizon, okay, what are those two mountains that they call it, what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The green peaks, yeah.
unidentified		That's the only thing you see of the horizon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
		You know, here's, I've got a question for you.
		And I want you to think about this.
		Getting video from there to here is quite a complex job.
		Getting audio from there to here is almost nothing bandwidth-wise.
		Why didn't they put a microphone on that little rover?
unidentified		Don't tell what you might hear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's my point.
		In other words, there is enough atmosphere there, apparently, to conduct sound.
		So wouldn't it be really cool to be able to listen?
unidentified		Yeah, but I keep waiting for that Monster Pan that they keep talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they've done pans.
unidentified		But it's not of the horizon, it's of rocks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of rocks, yeah.
		Well, so that's the answer to your question.
		I haven't.
		You know, I see it on CNN every day, and you can go to the website and see it, but it's rocks.
unidentified		Tell them to show us the rest of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you think you're holding back?
		Oh, who knows?
		I have a feeling that even if they saw a great big green foot, they would say it's a trick of light shadow.
unidentified		Well, yeah, that's what they always say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Even if the very next photograph showed our little crawling machine mushed into the ground.
unidentified		Now, NASA really should think of this.
unidentified		If they show a picture of a pyramid, my God, all the funding they would get.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean you're not suggesting that NASA should slip one in on us, are you?
unidentified		No, no, I wouldn't do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think they would?
		I mean, if too many people start saying what I'm saying right now, why, folks, it's nothing but a bunch of red damn rocks.
		We've got them here on Earth.
		Matter of fact, here near Las Vegas, we've got an area called Red Rock.
		I tell you right now, I could take a machine out there, and you would not be able to tell the difference between what you're seeing now and Red Rock.
		No way.
		It's called Red Rock, and that's all it is.
unidentified		Who wants to still see rocks?
unidentified		But if they show up with a picture of something interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, remember, at one time, sir, Mars was covered with water, virtually a water world.
unidentified		You will listen to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 22nd, 1997.
		Took my baby's life.
		Last Saturday came to the old tree.
		It stands beside the river where you were to meet me.
		On the ground, your boyfriend addressed to me.
		It read, Dear Love, I've done you wrong and set you free.
		No longer can I live with this hurt and this sin.
		I just couldn't tell you.
		Feeling better now that we're through.
		Feeling better cause I'm over you.
		I learned my lesson in laughter, God.
		Now I see.
		Are you really?
		Are you no good?
		You're no good.
		You're no good.
		Baby, you're no good.
		I'm gonna say it again.
		You're no good.
		Baby, you're no good.
		I broke a heart.
		Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		The night's program originally aired July 22nd, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Art.
		Well, the thing that just awakened already has the potential of sight.
		I mean, think of all the quick cams and other video links, like the studio cam that watches you all night, that see the world and its comings and goings.
		What about all those cameras mounted in cities?
		What about all those cameras on highways and byways in America, huh?
		You might have read the book by David Gerald called When Harley Was One.
		Harley was an advanced computer that constructed his own replacement, one that would be as far beyond him as he was beyond a pocket calculator.
		Harley called the creation a graphical emanescent device.
unidentified		G-O-D.
unidentified		I wonder, will it need worship?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Somebody writes here, who is this, Chris?
		I have to highly recommend the family radio service radios that you've been touting.
		We just advertised those tonight from ZQ.
		He said, one correction, they don't operate the 450 megahertz band, but rather 462 to 468.
		Well, my reference to 450 was a general one.
		When I say 450, I mean that range, but you are technically correct.
		It is in there.
		The properties of handheld radios at that frequency are rather unique in that they penetrate where other VHF radios just don't penetrate.
		And because it is a shorter bandwidth frequency, it will penetrate, for example, inside an automobile very readily.
		And in places where normal VHF radios and CB, of course, gets left far in the dust, don't go.
		These family radios do go.
		They're quite remarkable, actually.
		All right, east of the Rockies, you are on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Yeah, good morning.
		They're reporting out of Syracuse University that a professor came up with a purple goo, and it's actually a gelatin protein cube that's made out of swamp-litting bacteria using it to possibly replace the computer chip and hold 10,000 times more information.
		That report's coming out of Syracuse University right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not surprised.
		That was the way they had to move eventually, a sort of combination of or an interface between a machine and a biological entity.
		You're a goo.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		That's what they're speaking of right now on local New York radio stations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not surprised.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm simply not surprised.
unidentified		I just want to give you that update.
unidentified		Thanks for the program, Arthur.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I appreciate the call.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That figures to be breaking news tonight, huh?
		Goo.
		Wonder how they'll contain it in a personal home computer.
unidentified		You'll have a little goo module.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It really will be that.
		A little organic module that will establish neural connections and do storage at rates that will stagger you.
		And I believe this is the beginning we are on the threshold of a sentient being.
		An entity.
		I don't know if you'd say being.
		An entity.
		Something that is.
		And I think that defines it.
		Self-awareness.
		The ability to learn, to adapt.
		Getting close to it, folks.
		East of the Rockies, you're on air, hi.
unidentified		Good morning, sir.
unidentified		It's an honor to speak to you again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you, where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Minneapolis.
unidentified		My name's Carl.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Carl.
unidentified		Also known as the Silver Charm Guy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I have another prediction for you, but first I'd like to tell you I'm kind of disappointed in the Canadian people for burning the flag like they did the other day on TV.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've seen our flag go up an awful lot of times.
unidentified		I know, but the Canadians, you know, we've saved them a few times.
unidentified		Well, you know, you get in these disputes and people get angry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's an expression.
		It's not one that we're happy with.
		But I suspect there have been Americans burn the Canadian flag as well.
unidentified		Yeah, well, they come down here and they make a lot of money down here and they take it back up there.
		You know, whatever.
		But I'm kind of upset about it.
		So anyway, I have a prediction about the Marconi Awards.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		I predict that you will win and I hope that you will make a statement on that platform that will rock the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, I thank you for your prediction.
		I would say it's anything but a sure thing.
		There's some pretty hefty competition in there.
		Howard Stern's in there.
		Dr. Loris Lessinger is in there.
		And there's a couple others.
unidentified		Yeah, the sports babe?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the sports babe, and then one other.
unidentified		Do you know who that is?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's another sports person of some sort.
		But I'm sorry offhand, I don't remember the name.
		So, you know, that's some pretty heavy competition, even if you take the named people.
unidentified		I don't think they're going to give it to Howard, though, because he's a jerk.
		And Laura, Dr. Laura, she is.
		I've listened to her show.
		She's on in the morning here after you're off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I don't know if she has an attitude, you know, and she's a man-basher.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, look.
		But see, this is your perception.
		And the people voting on this award are the radio station program directors and managers.
unidentified		Well, what they really are are probably most of them are gay people, so let's all the night people fill the ballot box there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That isn't the way it works, I'm telling you.
		And you didn't help out my case there at all.
		You just said that they're probably all gay people.
		Why'd you say that?
		Really trying to help me out there, huh?
		Just insulted all of the management of all of the stations that I'm on.
		That was brilliant.
		Thank you.
		Stop payment on your check now.
		Look, I'm going to say this again, and I really mean it.
		I am satisfied with what has occurred thus far.
		I have been nominated.
		I have received a certificate of that nomination as one of the top five syndicated programs in the nation.
		And that certificate is up on the website.
		We put it up.
		It arrived actually in the mail yesterday, and so I scanned it and put it up there so you can see it.
		And I'm very, very honored.
		And if it doesn't ever go beyond that, that's just fine.
		It's a great honor to have received that.
		Now, should I win the first meaningful part of his conversation, I would have some things to say to the industry, as a matter of fact.
		And if I had an opportunity to address the National Association of Broadcasters down in New Orleans, it's going to be fun to go to New Orleans anyway, no matter what happens, I would have quite a bit to say about the direction of talk radio.
		And I am not suggesting that anybody follow in my footsteps.
		I've gone off in my own direction.
		For better or worse, I have done that.
		What I am suggesting, though, is variety.
		And that a lot of the people right now that think they've got to follow in the cookie-cutter formula of talk radio, and that is the majority of the hosts, reconsider their direction and reconsider the state of our industry.
		And if we don't soon do that, talk radio will atrophy.
		It cannot be any one single thing, in my opinion.
		Rush developed and is certainly a gigantic, a huge talent, and developed the political side of talk radio.
		And immediately everybody else out there decided they had to follow in his rather formidable footsteps.
		And that was a mistake.
		And in my view, the industry has got to begin to diversify.
		There is so much more to life that can be talked about than politics.
		And that, again, that doesn't mean that I'm suggesting anybody follow in my footsteps, but rather establish your own track.
		And then talk radio, as it diversifies, will grow and strengthen.
		But I'll tell you a little secret.
		This spring book, what's called the spring book, was pretty much generally across the board a bad book for talk radio.
		Now I did particularly well, and I'm very thankful for that.
		The ratings continue to skyrocket, and I'm very thankful for that.
		But this spring book was not a particularly good book for talk radio.
		Now, what that means is that in general, there's been some tune-out of talk radio across the nation, just as sort of a general trend.
		A talk radio remains, as far as I know, the number one format.
		But it's beginning to erode a little bit, and the reason that's occurring is that there is not enough diversification.
		There are so many things in life that can be talked about.
		It's one of the reasons Dr. Laura is doing well, Rush is doing well, Howard is doing well, I'm doing well, and others who have moved away from what everybody thought it had to be are doing well.
		If you look at the list of, say, the top 10.
		So I would encourage the industry to continue this diversification and for people to look for new ideas and new things and new avenues and new niches.
		And when they're found, they're going to work.
		And if nobody gets out there and looks, talk radio is going to atrophy and be in trouble.
		So that's probably the essence of what I would say to my colleagues.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
leonard nimoy ▲ ● ▼		Hell, Mr. Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		You're still number one in Tullahoma, Tennessee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
		It's Roger.
		I just thought I'd call in and tell you sounding good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's very kind of you.
unidentified		What, the caller, you thought he said gay?
unidentified		I could have sworn he said day people, though, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe you're I could have sworn he said gay.
unidentified		I think you said day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Day people.
		Maybe.
		You know what?
		That makes sense.
		I apologize to that call.
		I bet you're right.
		Day people.
unidentified		Most of them are day people, though.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's true.
		It's true.
		And it's going to take, on the part of those who are voting, again, no doubt, primarily heterosexual program directors and managers, it's going to take some insight on their part to look at what's occurring at night rather than during the day, because during the day is very important for a radio station.
		You know, morning drive, afternoon drive, it's called.
		Very important.
		And so they would probably look at that first.
		We have just begun to sort of lighten up the night and prove again in the industry that the nighttime is viable in radio.
unidentified		Yes, sir, it is.
unidentified		Well, like, you know, there are a lot of United Parcel Services that listen to you, part-time, full-time, management.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If only UPS did the voting.
unidentified		Oh, man.
unidentified		Now, like I said, you know, we...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think you're right, though.
		I think I owe that man an apology.
		I think you're absolutely right.
		I could have sworn he said gay people.
		And I thought, oh, great.
		You know, there's some real help.
unidentified		No, but I believe that the, how do you say, the radio management know that there's a pretty good listening crowd out there at night now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		Over the last eight years, I've seen traffic quadruple out there on the road and everything.
		You know that they're going to have the radios on.
		They're going to be listening.
		And talk radio, for me, I've been listening to you, I guess, a little over two years now.
		And you have a very good program.
		Very diverse.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it has skyrocketed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I think that the diversity is one of the reasons.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I'm not going to go back through the whole speech I just did, but I really think the whole industry's got to take a look at itself and grow up a little bit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because you ask yourself, and I ask people this frequently, how many out of every day at home, are you married?
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Children?
unidentified		Three.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Three.
		All right.
		Three children and a wife.
		How many hours every day do you spend talking about politics with your three children and wife?
unidentified		None.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		None hours?
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what most people say.
		That's what most people say.
		And that's the real truth.
		And so then why would something that is supposed to reflect life and the concerns of life, like talk radio, automatically spend hours every day, which most talk show hosts are committed to, reading Senate bills over the air, talking about politics, even when it's not worth talking about?
unidentified		You're right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So we've got to change.
		We've got to reflect life and interest, and that's how we'll grow.
		That's my little speech.
unidentified		Well, it's like this.
unidentified		You know, driver training schools and such as that right there, they teach how to drive, but they don't teach on the rules of the road.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
unidentified		And it goes with school and everything else.
unidentified		Reading, writing, and arithmetic, but they also need to teach common sense and, you know, about, you know, life itself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's a lot to talk about in life.
		You're sure right about that.
		Thank you.
		And I think you're also right about that caller.
		Boy, do I apologize.
		I could have sworn he said gay.
		But now as I reflect on it, I'm sure he didn't.
		Thank goodness.
		Yeah, there's a lot to life.
		There's a lot to life that's very interesting to people that deserves to be discussed.
		Talk radio should be reflecting life, not some little microcosm of it that occurs mainly back in Washington without relevance to our daily lives.
		That's my view.
		West to the Rockies.
		You're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, how are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I am reasonably all right.
unidentified		And this is art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
unidentified		And how the heck are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You already asked.
unidentified		I'm calling from Edmonton, Canada.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Edmonton and Alberta, Canada.
unidentified		I'm amazed I got through.
		Anyway, I just heard the comments from the one fellow that kind of brought Canada into the picture, and we're not like that.
		And I don't understand the homosexual bit either, so I think he should just, you know, I don't know what to say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, did he say gay or day?
unidentified		He said gay.
unidentified		But he could have said gay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, now I'm not sure.
		I almost have to go back and listen to the tape.
		I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say day.
unidentified		Yeah, no kidding.
		Anyway, one thing I wanted to talk to you about, actually calling up here from Canada, with the Phoenix sightings, we had a little thing going on up in Canada.
		You might want to try to get a hold of one of the TV stations here.
		About a month ago, we had not a series, but we had two lights that were reported flying in actually quite a weird direction.
		I never seen them myself, but they flew over northern Alberta, passed directly over the city of Edmonton.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		And they proceeded to go southerly towards another city to the south, LaDuke, Alberta.
		And it apparently was witnessed by quite a few people, and somebody had actually home videotaped it, and I believe they have it.
		And you may want to try to get your hands on that.
		I've been trying to get a hold of you for a while and tell you about this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, of course I want to get my hands on it.
unidentified		And I don't know if I can give you a number off the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As a matter of fact, this is the one instance where you probably can do that because the program is ending.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about if I put you on hold?
unidentified		Thanks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I'm putting you on hold.
		Holding in Canada.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi, Arts.
unidentified		This is Steve out here in South Carolina.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Steve in South Carolina?
unidentified		Yeah, listening to 1210 Fading In N-Out.
		All right.
		Did you have a list of the top 10 radio shows you were talking about earlier?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As a matter of fact, I believe that list was up on the website for a while.
unidentified		Oh, okay.
		I didn't know if you had one you could read right before you went off there.
		I'd be interested to hear who the top ten Are and he said day is in day and night.
		Oh, good because he was talking about you being a night show, and most of the other shows that are probably in the top five there are day shows.
		I'm sure he said day.
		All right, well, we love you out here, and you do a great job.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you very much.
unidentified		I listen to you every night coming home from work.
		I work for Amtrak, and I listen to you all the time.
		I've talked to you a couple other times, but we really enjoy your show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I love trains, by the way.
unidentified		Yeah, y'all come out here on the East Coast and take a ride.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I really love trains.
		I once had an opportunity.
		I rode all the way from Vancouver in British Columbia to near Niagara Falls, all the way across Canada.
unidentified		Canadian Rail.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, let me tell you.
unidentified		It's going to be fantastic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely one of the most beautiful trips I've ever taken in my whole life.
unidentified		Well, you'd be another celebrity I've met if you'd come out here.
		They had Scotty Moore, Elvis Presley's old guitar player, on the train the other day.
		You know, people like that.
		You meet them out here, and they're just about average people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, that's good people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's all I am is just an average person.
unidentified		Yeah, you know, the first time I heard you, I had a picture in my mind.
		The very first time I heard you, I thought, here's a little old guy.
		He's probably 65 years old.
		You know, you get a picture of somebody in your mind on the radio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I saw your picture, and you look like my, probably a next-door neighbor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly right.
		That's really all I am.
		i don't take well to this celebrity status and i don't even really You want to know the truth?
		I really don't like it.
unidentified		Well, I don't see how it would be sort of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, let me put it this way.
		I love doing the program.
		I love it.
		But I don't love the attention.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah, I mean, at least your radio, so most people may not recognize you.
unidentified		You can go out and shop and do things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was that way, but I've done TV and I've been in so many newspapers and stuff now that it's getting a little harder.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen.
unidentified		Getting too big for your bitches, huh?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm doing that anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, the program is over, so you get the honors.
unidentified		Good night.

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