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July 22, 1997 - Art Bell

02:46:48

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Leonard Nimoy Interview

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	So, I'm going to go ahead and get started. So, I'm going to go ahead and get started. So, I'm going to go ahead and get
	started.
	Welcome to Art Bell, somewhere in time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from July 22nd, 1997.
	The center of the earth.
	Science calls it the core.
	Legend calls it hell.
	Somewhere between the two lies man's imagination.
	It is man's blessing to explore his world, and his curse that he is never satisfied with what he finds.
	Astonishingly, even as we have probed the edge of our solar system, we have only penetrated our own planet's crust by a handful of miles.
	The Earth itself poses a formidable obstacle.
	What scientists call the Earth's core begins approximately 1,800 miles straight down and reaches a temperature of 9,000 degrees Fahrenheit at its molten nickel-iron center.
	A scalding link to our cosmic creation.
	The center of the earth is one of mankind's greatest untapped mysteries.
	Hypnotically enticing.
	Eternally elusive.
	130 years ago, Jules Verne fantasized that the center of the earth was not an infernal, but rather a habitable place.
	A place that could be explored.
	And explore it he did, in 1864, with words.
	And now, we will explore it as well, with words and sounds, as we embark on a journey to the center of the Earth.
	In a moment, Leonard Nimoy.
	Hello everybody, I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM, and what you just heard came from Leonard Nimoy's Journey to the Center of the Earth, which is a two-CD audio book by Simon & Schuster, available from Simon & Schuster.
	He also has available The Time Machine, and You Know Me in Time.
	So, it was kind of a toss-up, both of these two-CD sets, available from Simon & Schuster.
	In a moment, Leonard Nimoy, here for only a very short time, unfortunately.
	So we will pummel him with questions.
	And now, I shouldn't have to introduce him.
	This is Leonard Nimoy.
	Leonard, welcome to the program.
	Thank you.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	We have such a short time that I feel obligated to literally pummel you with questions.
	Okay, go.
	All right.
	The character Mr. Spock came along at a time in our country of peace, love, Woodstock, sex, drugs, rock and roll.
	Let it all hang out, that kind of time.
	And yet, Spock was The picture, the very essence of self-control, self-denial, self-governance.
	How could that character have become such a hero in such an uncontrolled atmosphere?
	Well, it's a great question.
	I think for one thing, the time was one where so many people were becoming cynical about government and authority figures.
	It was clear that Bureaucracy was not responding to the individual, and the war in Vietnam was ongoing in spite of the fact that more and more and more people every day believe that it was wrong.
	We all believe in supporting our country, but we believe that we shouldn't be in that war.
	And here came a character who had dignity and integrity and intelligence.
	I think the sense was that this was a person that you could believe and count on.
	Well, that's right.
	How do you feel about the role itself?
	uh... duplicity uh... there was a hunger that
	yeah i think so i think it's over for the server great hunger absolutely i
	and i think you that uh... we were ready for the idea of a friendly alien
	well that's right how do you feel by the way about the world so you'll be mister
	spock of course forever do you do you ever get resentful of that
	No, I'm very comfortable with it.
	That's why the last book that I wrote, I Am Spock, is titled the way it is.
	I've really come full circle with it.
	I'm totally comfortable.
	Do you think that Gene Roddenberry would approve of the repeat direction and usage of original characters that have been now exhaustively repeated in, you know, so many other knockoffs?
	Well, I don't think Gene had any problem with perpetuating Star Trek.
	I think he would always enjoy the idea of the success of the franchise, but I do think that he would be at least interested in seeing that the thematic ideas were strong.
	That's what Star Trek is about when it's at its best, is that there's a thematic idea that there should be great entertainment, great adventure, but it should be about something.
	Yes, and Star Trek always was.
	Is it moving away from that slowly, the knockoffs?
	Well, you know, I've got to be honest with you.
	I don't watch enough of it to pass judgment.
	I feel very good about what we did.
	I feel very good about the TV shows and the movies that I was involved with.
	I've seen generations that I've seen in contact.
	And I'm not really sure that they are stories that I would have set out to do as major motion pictures.
	So your reaction to contact was not... I think it was very well done.
	Very well executed.
	I'm just not... Where was the story?
	I wasn't blown away with the story, exactly.
	Let's go back to Star Trek for a second.
	Do you remember the gentleman, and I cannot, who was originally cast as the captain of the Enterprise, Christopher Pike?
	Yeah, it was Jeffrey Hunter.
	And what happened to him?
	Well, Jeffrey Hunter was an important movie star.
	He was a great gentleman and a fine actor.
	He did the first pilot as Captain Pike, and then about a year later, when NBC and Desilu decided they wanted to make the second pilot, he simply wasn't available.
	I'm not sure whether he had another job or whether the negotiations with him got too tough or whatever.
	That was later brought back as a menagerie, wasn't it?
	That's right.
	Well, I guess you've really already answered this, with respect to your answer on Kondak, but otherwise, other television programs, movies and so forth, has anything come close to the genre of Star Trek?
	Well, that's an interesting question.
	I saw a few episodes of Outer Limits.
	That I thought were very interesting.
	I think X-Files has a great kind of internal life going on.
	It has a certain kind of style and it has an attitude.
	It has an attitude.
	And I think that's very important.
	I think Babylon 5 has an attitude that works at times.
	That's pretty much it as far as I'm concerned.
	In my range of experience.
	A very trivial question, but important to me nevertheless.
	In the early episodes, many years actually, of Star Trek, the women, the ensigns, all had these wonderful uniforms that in later years changed to pants!
	Who did that?
	I don't know, but you're touching on a very interesting point.
	Science fiction For a long time, it was a sub-genre.
	It was considered a distant cousin of important work.
	In fact, when I started acting in science fiction 45 years ago, if you can believe it, in a Saturday afternoon serial called Zombies of the Stratosphere, It was, science fiction was a genre in which you saw monsters, you saw people in strange outfits who came from other worlds, and you saw ladies who were scantily dressed.
	Yes.
	And there was always some sexy aspect to it.
	And that was what you saw in the early days of Star Trek.
	The women were, I think Bill Tice did a brilliant job of dressing, or nearly dressing, some of the ladies.
	And then later on, I guess, political correctness and feminism came on the scene.
	And there was some question about whether or not these women shouldn't be wearing more clothes in their professional situations, and that's what happened.
	I'm not sure, but I think it's also perhaps as airline stewardesses began to get older, too.
	Yeah, well, that could be.
	Where did the idea of the all-famous Vulcan mind control mind meld come from?
	We were doing an episode called, I believe, Dagger of the Mind and there was an actor playing a character who was mentally deranged and he had information that we had to have and the scene as it was written was a kind of a tedious interrogation scene where where I asked him a lot of questions and we've gotten information from him piecemeal, a word here and a word there and it wasn't as dramatic as it might be and Gene Roddenberry came up with this idea that Vulcans could do this meeting of the minds and extract the information that way.
	It was kind of a Vulcan version of hypnosis and it made for a much more dramatic I remember clearly, and I saw every single episode in every single movie, and I remember when you died.
	I remember when your casket, I thought, flashed and burned in the atmosphere.
	Yeah.
	What was it like to be killed off?
	I had a tough time with it.
	I had a tough time with it.
	I took the job because, frankly, I believed that that might be the last Star Trek movie.
	And I thought, why not go out in a flash, in a blaze of glory, saving the Enterprise and the crew, and dying in the process.
	I really thought this might be the last film.
	By the time we got around to shooting the final scene, the goodbye scene, where I'm saying goodbye to Captain Kirk, I had the sense that the movie was going to work.
	And I thought, if this movie is as good as I think it is, there are going to be more.
	And I began to have second thoughts about what I had done.
	But the guy was cast and I was a little late.
	It was a little too late to do anything about it, except that on the day we were shooting that scene, Harv Bennett came down on the set and said, do you think that you could do something in this scene that would give us a thread to pick up if there is another movie?
	And that's when I came up with this idea of doing a mind meld with Dee Kelly.
	And simply saying the word remember.
	Yes.
	It was ambiguous enough that a writer could pick up that idea and... Remember there might be another.
	Yeah, exactly.
	If there's another movie, don't forget me.
	Right.
	In Search Of, a lot of people wrote and asked me to ask you about In Search Of, whether you ever might pick that up again.
	Well, I'll tell you, In Search Of was a pleasant surprise to me.
	Again, I thought maybe two or three seasons would be the stretch of the show.
	We did seven years, and we did 144 episodes, and I think it became sort of the model and the granddaddy of a lot of the reality-based searching shows that are on the air now.
	In fact, for the last couple of years, I've been narrating a show called Ancient Mysteries, which has its own similarities to In Search Of.
	I haven't heard any word about the answer for being resurrected, but it's not a bad idea.
	All right.
	It was Alan Keyes, a presidential candidate in the last election, who said, Star Trek, in many ways, more personifies the spirit of what NASA used to be than does the current NASA.
	Would you agree with that?
	That's interesting.
	I wasn't aware of that.
	I think it's true.
	I think just this last week that we've been seeing a revival of interest in NASA.
	I think they've had an enormous success with the rover on Mars.
	And I think that they have gotten out of their kind of bureaucratic bind and gotten into an adventurous spirit that's captured the imagination again.
	And if that's true, and if they can keep that kind of sense of Adventure going, I think that they might build on it successfully.
	There's still a tremendous interest, I think, in what's out there.
	And I think NASA is the organization that's best set up to do the exploring.
	A building greater interest than ever in what's out there.
	More UFO reports, lights over Phoenix recently, the celebration of Roswell, the rest of it.
	What about moving into the realm of reality?
	How much chance do you think there really is?
	That we will be contacted.
	I mean, there is so much media, it's almost as though we are being prepared.
	Yeah.
	You know, when we were making the Star Trek series, the first season, middle of the first season, some people came to me and they said, you may not know it, but you have been chosen as a kind of a vessel to carry information to this civilization.
	to help prepare this society for the coming of another civilization, for alien arrival.
	And your character is a character designed to educate this public that there's nothing to fear, that it's possible to interact with other species.
	And I said, okay.
	It's okay with me if that's the case.
	And yes, it's ongoing.
	It doesn't stop.
	I guess there's something in me that responds to it as well.
	That's why I hooked up with John Delancey and several other Star Trek actors and actresses, and we call ourselves Alien Voices.
	This group is doing these audio tapes, the Journey to the Center of the Earth and Time Machine and Lost World.
	I guess we're kind of touched by that idea.
	We're tickled by that idea.
	Our imaginations are awakened around by that.
	I'm curious.
	I'm very curious.
	The Carl Sagan movie that just opened, the movie based on Carl Sagan, the book Contact, just opened.
	Right.
	It's a flawed movie, but I think one of the most important moments in the movie is when Jodie Foster tells us the numbers.
	There are something like four billion stars in our galaxy alone.
	In our galaxy alone.
	And there are billions of other galaxies.
	Each of those stars Our potential sun is just like ours, and that means that if one out of every million of those stars has planets around it, and if one out of every million of those has some kind of life on it, then the numbers tell us that the chances are very, very great
	Well, not necessarily.
	They might be far ahead of us.
	They might be parallel to us.
	but the distances are immense and the technology involved to get here would
	dictate they would be far far ahead of us well not necessarily they might be far ahead of us they
	might be parallel to us we don't know that for sure
	uh... but you're right the chances are they're far ahead of us yeah
	So the question is whether you think that beings, not just humans, evolved toward or away from violence?
	An important question if we're going to meet up with somebody.
	Yeah, well that's always the question.
	How did they, you know, the first thing that we would like to know is how did you folks get through the technological phase of your civilization and survive?
	How did you survive all the discoveries of of atomic weaponry and atomic power and that kind of thing without killing each other.
	Yes.
	And the assumption is that we'll be able to ask those questions and they'll educate us and help us get through it.
	It won't necessarily work that way.
	It may take an enormous amount of time just for us to learn how to communicate with them, let alone to get information from them.
	The assumption always is that they have traveled The same path that we are traveling, and that they may be a hundred or a thousand years ahead of us, but that they have gone through exactly the same experience, and chances are that's not necessarily true.
	Well, recalling the prime directive, if you look at what we have done here on Earth, you know, reality, when we have met people who have been isolated from the world until one sudden day when they're found in the middle of a jungle somewhere, we destroy them.
	Yeah.
	right but the fact that so
	i don't know what's in the on a lighter note you uh...
	you did some music stuff didn't you yeah i have dabbled with music in my time
	uh... where you've read going with this i was i was i just want to ask whether
	there's more but there's more coming
	Not too many people know that you dabbled with music, do they?
	Well, music has always been a love of mine.
	And when we were doing the Star Trek series, I had the opportunity to do some recording, which I did.
	I think I must have done about six albums.
	I also did a lot of musical theater.
	I toured the country in various musical shows in the 70s.
	I did Fiddle on the Roof, My Fair Lady, King and I, Camelot.
	I had a great time.
	I loved doing it.
	And then a question I asked you just before the program, the one I did ask you is, how do you get a life?
	I mean, you're so busy, so many demands on your time, and I'm one of them right now.
	How do you make time for a life?
	Well, first let me say this.
	When I came to California, I was 18 years old.
	I left Boston and came to California to be an actor.
	For the first 15 years that I spent Working at building a career, I was always wanting more opportunity.
	I was always struggling to get more work.
	When it all came together for me, and Star Trek started, and I haven't been out of work since, and then particularly when I had a couple of hits directing movies, and all of that came together, suddenly you're right.
	What happens to you, as you know, is that there's a tremendous amount of pressure built To do this, do that, and people would be happy to keep you busy 24 hours a day.
	That's right.
	I don't resent it because of the time that I've spent wanting more and needing more and knowing what it's like being out of work.
	So you just make rules?
	Yeah, exactly.
	I try to keep a level head about it, and I try to help people understand that a man does not live by work alone.
	That's it.
	Leonard, that's it.
	In more ways than one, that's a half an hour.
	Oh, really?
	Yeah, that's a half an hour.
	Oh, too fast.
	Uh, too fast is right.
	So can we do this again sometime?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I'd love to.
	All right.
	All right.
	Uh, Leonard Nimoy, thanks a million.
	I wish I had hours.
	Take care.
	Thank you.
	That's Leonard Nimoy.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 22, 1997.
	This is a presentation of the Coast to Coast AM concert series, which was recorded on July 22, 1997.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in Texas.
	I could have done all five hours, of course, with Leonard Nimoy, but I do understand.
	And that was the reason for the last question.
	july twenty second nineteen ninety seven soon to enter the mad world of on the
	screen talk radio well thirty minutes i know one enough
	i could have done uh... all five hours of course with leonard in my book uh...
	i do understand and uh... that was a reason for the uh... the last question
	uh... when it seems like when you were achieve a certain level of success
	it is allowed the world will take your entire life
	life.
	I know that.
	Radio, television, newspapers, magazines, all of it comes at you constantly, the media, and if you allow it to, in your sense, because you love what you do and you love your work, is to allow it.
	You know, I get calls from affiliates and all of these various media sources all the time, even networks, BBC, major U.S.
	networks and the rest of them.
	And I finally, you heard me declare no more TV not long ago.
	And that's one of the reasons I did that.
	TV is an extremely time-consuming, arduous thing, as Leonard Nimoy could certainly tell you.
	And so I began to close some of it out of my life.
	So that I would have a little life left.
	And so in that spirit, I absolutely understand the fact that he could only spend a little bit of time with us.
	What I will do is repeat that interview for the midnight crowd in about an hour and a half.
	I took the questions and prioritized them as best I could, and he took a pretty good
	pummeling there, so we got our money's worth for 30 minutes.
	The Federal Reserve Chairman, Alan Greenspan, said U.S.
	economic growth appears to be slowing.
	So, more or less, he said he wasn't going to raise interest rates.
	The Dow Jones loved it.
	The market loved it.
	And we achieved yet another new high.
	we went up 153.93 points to 8061.65.
	Huh. It's going to be interesting to see exactly how high it can go.
	And the trick for those of us who are in the market, and I am just in a very tiny way, is to know when it's about at the highest point and when it's getting ready to take about a 2,000 point correction.
	And I'm sure I'll miss that by a mile.
	President Clinton accepted a proposal by the Attorney General, your favorite Janet Reno, that would reduce the wide disparities in federal prison sentences for crack and powder cocaine.
	Even them all out, in other words.
	Because there have been so many claims of unfairness by those who have gone to jail for a month for a certain amount of crack, versus others who have gone to jail for life.
	Newt Gingrich is trying to quiet things down after the attempted palace... I use that word almost loosely with regard to the, uh, the house.
	Palace coup.
	They were going to get rid of, uh, Gingrich.
	Instead, he got rid of them.
	The Mars mission is back on track.
	I must admit, it is a little unsettling that, as Mr. Hoagland, you'll recall, suggested.
	A lost contact with Mars Pathfinder for about a day on July 20th of all days.
	On July 20th, Pathfinder was virtually unheard of for a little while.
	Very interesting.
	Hey listen, you know what we're going to do tomorrow night?
	We're going to have Dr. John Alexander And Colonel Philip Corso here.
	Do you know who Philip Corso is, Colonel?
	Retired?
	Well, if you heard Dreamland a couple of weeks ago, you know.
	He's got a bestseller on his hands.
	As a matter of fact, I think his book, The Day After Roswell, is going to debut at number 12 nationally.
	And this is a man who actually had his hands on The Roswell debris, the technology acquired at Roswell, this is a man who actually says he dispersed it to American industry, and much of the technology that we have today comes directly from that debris, including, among other things, fiber optics.
	It is an interview not to be missed.
	That's going to be tomorrow night.
	And I think Friday night, the 26th, the last day of the prediction of Richard Hoagland of events to occur between the 20th and the 26th.
	I hope that's right.
	It's the 26th, I believe, Friday night, Saturday.
	We'll be here.
	Tomorrow night is going to be a very interesting program indeed.
	Uh, Keith.
	No, that's, that's not right.
	Tomorrow night, um, is going to be, as I said, uh, uh, Dr. Alexander and Colonel Corso, and then Thursday night, Friday night.
	Thursday night, Friday morning, it's going to be Jim Keith, who writes a serious book, a case book, actually, about the men in black.
	So that should be very interesting.
	Get this, late news.
	From Palo Alto, California.
	Billed by its creators as the world's first artificial brain, the Cellular Automatic Brain Machine, or CBM, awoke, their words, folks, awoke last week for a workout at Stanford University's Genetic Programming Conference.
	More than 300 researchers heard presentations for harnessing survival of the fittest principles to automatically build software and hardware that evolves.
	The CBM, designed by Japan's Advanced Telecommunications Research Institute International, that's some name, comprises a real-time, listen to this, Million neuron modular architecture that can evolve thousands of neural networks in minutes.
	What we're talking about here, folks, is artificial intelligence.
	Not on the horizon, but here now.
	And I wonder where you think this is going to lead.
	An artificial brain.
	One that you set upon a path of developing new neural pathways and virtually improving itself.
	Growing!
	Want to think of it that way?
	Think of it as something that is growing.
	And it's their words, here, that it awakened.
	Awakened.
	Oh, what road are we beginning to go down?
	Hmm?
	And what's at the end of it, don't you wonder?
	All right.
	It's going to be open lines now.
	Anything you want to talk about is fair game.
	West of the Rockies, uh, good morning.
	You're number one.
	You're on the air.
	Hello there.
	Hello.
	Turn your radio off, please.
	Oh, hi.
	How are you, Art?
	Fine.
	Good.
	My name's Ron and I'm calling from Apple Valley.
	Hi Ron.
	I've faxed you a few times.
	A couple questions that I have for you.
	One, I find it kind of ironic that Pathfinder was lost over the weekend.
	So do I. Yeah.
	On the 20th of all days.
	Of all days.
	Now, what they said was they had a carrier wave from Pathfinder, but no information whatsoever.
	So to all the world, it was dead as a doornail for that day.
	Isn't that special?
	Yeah.
	No doubt.
	I couldn't believe it when I heard it.
	I was like, they're up to it again, you know.
	But my second question is, Uh, Ed Daines.
	I've really been waiting to hear about his predictions and the earthquakes, because, of course, I'm in California here.
	Well, as you well know, or maybe you don't know, Ed Daines was on the air last week.
	No!
	Yes!
	I must have missed it, obviously, because I'm trying to do both world fairs.
	And where was it you said you were again?
	In Apple Valley, California.
	I'm sorry.
	Yeah, but that's right.
	No, I really mean I'm sorry.
	Oh, that I missed it?
	Yeah, that you missed what he said about Apple Valley.
	Oh, I'm sure he just focused right in on Apple Valley.
	Actually.
	Did he really?
	Really?
	Well, I mean, I guess all I can say is I'm sorry.
	What night was that?
	Maybe I can order the tape.
	I'm kidding you.
	I know you are.
	It was, I don't recall, just offhand.
	We're going to do a show with Ed, don't despair.
	We're going to, you know, we'll do a whole show with Ed.
	We're going to schedule one.
	Oh, good.
	All right?
	Well, I just wanted to thank you for your show, and I know you get a lot of heat, and we just love you, Garth.
	Hey, look, Heat is my middle name.
	Thank you very much for the call.
	Yeah, it is the truth.
	Yeah, I get in all kinds of trouble, all the time.
	But my attitude is, Oh, well.
	I get in trouble because people don't understand my sense of humor.
	I get in trouble for the subjects I cover.
	I get in trouble for the way I cover them.
	And, um, ah!
	You know, life is short, and I'm going to keep doing it my way.
	We'll see what happens.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Yes, Art Bell.
	That would be me.
	And I've listened to your show for the last four years, and I really like it because I believe that you're a seeker of the truth, and I really like that about your show.
	And in the last 27 years, I've had five premonitions, and the first four of them came true.
	Uh-oh.
	I had the fifth one on July the 5th.
	Well, briefly outline so that we might know Your accuracy rating, you said you had five and four came true.
	What were the four that came true?
	Well, they were personally from me, and I believe that that was teaching me the voice of God.
	Now, I don't want to get into any religion.
	I just want to tell you what my premonition was, okay?
	Alright.
	I've tried to fax you for a week, but... Alright, it is premonition number five that really counts.
	Okay, that's correct.
	Okay, so what is it?
	What was told to me was there is going to be a UFO land on the planet somewhere, sometime.
	That's pretty general.
	But this is the important part.
	The person that walks out of the UFO is going to have the appearance of the late President John F. Kennedy.
	And I believe that that is in accordance with the Bible, Revelation chapter 13.
	You believe, you believe this person will be the Antichrist, don't you?
	Yes, sir, I do.
	Uh-huh, I knew it.
	And, uh, Kennedy, because he is, uh, attractive.
	He's very charismatic.
	Charismatic.
	World leader.
	Uh, world leader.
	Yes.
	Uh-huh.
	And I believe, um, I'm not saying it's actually John F. Kennedy.
	I'm saying this person will have the appearance.
	Of John F. Kennedy.
	Appearances are everything, thank you.
	Yes, I follow exactly where you're coming from.
	Last night, I said... I get, you know, some people just, they don't track my sense of humor.
	I said, why do you think I part the hair?
	Somebody was, as usual, accusing me of being the devil.
	And I said, why do you think I part my hair the way I do?
	It's to cover up the 666, you know, it's right there, right there.
	And I said, I always thought it was a 999, but there was this moment of revelation for me.
	And do you know that people take these things seriously?
	They actually took me literally, and they thought, I'm telling you, repercussions from it today, they thought I was serious when I said that.
	You've got to listen to the program, but I'm just saying my sense of humor is a little bit different.
	It's very dry, and sometimes I just assume, and I know what the problem with that is, that you get it when I say something like that, and I'm sure the majority of you do.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hi, Art.
	Hello.
	This is Louise over here in the central Sierras of Sonora.
	And I'm really surprised I got a hold of you.
	Enjoy your show.
	And I have something that I've been trying to follow the last couple of days.
	Did you read or hear about Eugene Shoemaker being killed?
	Yes.
	You did?
	Yes.
	Was there any follow-up on the car accident, the other car?
	No, I'm glad you asked that.
	I had a discussion with Richard Hoagland yesterday about exactly that.
	There's a big curtain of general silence that has come down about that story, with the exception of the fact that he was killed in a head-on crash.
	Well, I didn't say head-on here in our Modesto paper.
	Well, that's what I heard, that it was head-on.
	of are very he was up there in the northern territory look like they were
	going to be looking for some meteorites one might one might jump to that conclusion is that anyway
	i was just wondering if you might have heard from my friend uh... in
	perth and a l
	uh... do you know i haven't and i got a message by email uh... suggesting that stands website had not been active in
	a while and that nobody heard from him so i'm glad you asked that
	the line i really i have been listening to the news let me let me
	put out the call and uh... as thank you very much Shh.
	Now Stan, um, did something quite remarkable.
	He interpreted naval satellite, uh, a weather imagery and called the beginning of a big change out in the Pacific Ocean.
	He said there were hot spots the size of which you simply cannot believe.
	And it was not a month later, not a month later I would say, that the National Weather Service began to call what they are saying is one of the biggest building El Nino's in the Pacific they have ever seen ever and this El Nino if it continues to build will have a dramatic repercussions for the near-term weather of the world not just this country but the world weather patterns will change dramatically and violently
	And so, Stan, if you're out there, Mr. Deo, in Perth, you know my toll-free international number.
	Call me.
	And we'll get an update.
	My toll-free international number, I should give that out anyway, shouldn't I?
	It does not matter where in the world you are.
	Australia?
	Yesterday we had a caller from Shenzhen, China.
	or Europe or South America or whatever get hold of the AT&T operator and tell her you want to call in the United States 800-893-0903 and we will pay for the call I don't care where you are in the world it is a toll-free call and you can either get the AT&T country code And direct dial it or get the AT&T operator and have her call 800-893-0903.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Oh, hello.
	All right.
	Thanks for taking my call.
	This is Dave from Ohio.
	Hi, Dave.
	Oh, geez.
	I'm one of the co-founders of the Art Bell Discussion Group here in The Upper Ohio Valley.
	Well, I thank you.
	And it's so great to talk to you.
	I've talked to you once before, and I actually wanted to call and tell you it's actually part of my job with American Science Innovations to listen to your show.
	It is?
	Yes, it is.
	Does that mean you're paid to listen?
	Pretty much, yes.
	I don't get a full salary, but I do get set up with a computer And I do get some funding for our research.
	We study the electromagnetic science, what we call science based on hyperspace.
	And some of your guests are just so exciting to us at American Science Innovations because, for instance, Richard C. Hoagland talking about the geometry, this new geometry.
	I was with Charlie Story, the president and founder of American Science Innovations, and we were on a trip in Puerto Rico, and we were down there, and we were there discussing this geometry last summer, and we thought that we had discovered it.
	Well, people are constantly reinventing the wheel.
	Exactly.
	It turns out that there's a lot of other people Working in the same field as me.
	Oh, you bet there are.
	And by the way, we're going to be on the air in Puerto Rico very soon.
	Now listen, I've got to split because we've got news coming up at the top of the hour.
	Okay.
	But keep listening and keep collecting.
	Well, thank you, Art.
	Take care.
	Paid to listen.
	Now there's a cool job, if you can get it.
	You like the program?
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 22nd, 1997.
	Coast to Coast is a production of the National Geographic Office.
	See that girl, watch that scene, diggin' standing green Friday night and the lights are low
	Good morning, everybody.
	I'm Art Bell.
	It's great to be here.
	We're in Open Lines.
	Yes.
	Leonard Nimoy was here, but in a cosmic blink.
	And I mean a cosmic blink.
	Tonight's program originally aired July 22, 1997.
	Good morning, everybody. I'm Mark Bell. It's great to be here.
	We're in open lines. Yes.
	Leonard Nimoy was here, but in a cosmic blink.
	And I mean a cosmic blink.
	He warped out about half an hour.
	But it was a good interview.
	And we'll crank it up and repeat it in the midnight hour.
	Next hour.
	The beginning of next hour.
	So that crowd can hear it.
	Very good interview, actually.
	I really enjoyed that.
	And obviously, there would be room for a whole lot more.
	And we'll get them back.
	Somehow or another, we'll get them back.
	Listen, we were just talking a little while ago, I haven't seen my international line ring yet, so I don't know if Stan Dale's listening, but we were talking about the warming ocean temperatures, in fact the El Nino building, as they have never seen it build in the Pacific, and it's going to mean radical changes in weather.
	Now this comes from the weather folks, not Art Bell.
	I just knew it was coming, that's all.
	Let me give you several good reasons to go up to my website before we proceed
	with unscreened madness in the nighttime here.
	here.
	There are two new crop circles on the website that are so astounding, so unmistakably not human creations, that I urge you, if you don't have a computer, Go to a friend's house.
	Borrow a computer.
	Have them print it out for you.
	Go to the library.
	Find a way.
	Get our newsletter.
	They'll be in our next newsletter.
	I mean, these are the damnedest display of something that is obviously beyond us and not done by us.
	There simply is no question about it.
	These need to be seen.
	One of them, I believe, from Wiltshire.
	Both from England.
	You've just got to see them.
	I've been getting messages all day long by email and fax.
	And people are just blown away.
	The crop circle season is on big time.
	They're coming at a faster rate than ever.
	It means something.
	So go take a look.
	I seem to have won a couple of awards.
	And we posted them on the website.
	One is the certificate of nomination for the Marconi Award, which just came in today.
	And it's a beauty from National Association of Broadcasters, and I'm very proud of that.
	Whether or not I end up winning the final, I'm one of the five finalists, whether or not I end up winning in September, I have mentally concluded, perhaps for my own protective It doesn't matter.
	I'm so honored to have received the nomination as one of the top five syndicated programs in the United States.
	That's up there, the actual certificate.
	I scanned it and put it up there.
	And then I got a beautiful plaque, which I'm very proud of as well.
	You know how I feel about animals.
	This came from the Humane Society of Rowan County in Salisbury, North Carolina.
	And with it came a letter, Dear Mr. Bellows, President of the Humane Society of Rowan County, I'm extremely pleased to present to you a special Susan J. Leckler Memorial Award in the form of an enclosed plaque.
	It is sent with our deepest appreciation for you and your efforts on behalf of this planet, the animals and the people We're willing to be enlightened in hidden realities and other possibilities of your many diverse subjects.
	The Susan Gleckler Award is a memorial for a very talented and caring member of the Humane Society who died tragically in 1978 at the age of 18.
	We honor her memory with the annual presentation of awards to individuals who are not members of our humane society, but who have made an outstanding contribution to animals or animal welfare.
	Yours is the first plaque to be presented to someone who is not relatively local since the awards began.
	So, um, thank you very much, Bonnie.
	Signed by Bonnie P. Smith, President of the Humane Society of Rowan County in Salisbury, North Carolina.
	Thank you very much.
	And so I plopped that plaque onto my scanner and I scanned the plaque.
	Put that one up there.
	So there you go.
	All right.
	To our international line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Yeah, this is Colin from Northern Ontario, Canada.
	How you doing?
	Ah, not too bad, not too bad.
	You know one thing, though, that I have to talk to you about, Art?
	What's that?
	Where does Richard Hoagland get these Masonic conspiracies?
	Like, I'm a Mason.
	I'm a 32nd degree Scottish Rite.
	And, like, where does he get this stuff, you know?
	From people just like you.
	Yeah, I know, I'm the evil one.
	I know, honestly, a lot of the stuff that Richard talks about is interesting, to say the least.
	I'm not sure of it myself, and to be honest with you, you said you're a 32nd degree Mason.
	Yeah, Scottish Rite.
	It is possible, is it not, that there are things that you are not yet privy to?
	No, no, but I have friends that are, like, the 33rd degree basically is a person who runs Scottish Rite Masonry.
	That is basically what it is.
	And that's the thing that I find interesting.
	But even, how can you know for sure?
	is true you know. Art you've intrigued me. I beg your pardon? I said Art you've intrigued
	me. Well I'm intrigued too. I don't know whether I buy into all of that or not about the masonry.
	And so I've just given up on it. And I tell people look I'm a 99th degree mason. And they
	say you're Muslim. I go oh my.
	I tell them, well, I can't talk about it.
	Well, there's nothing to say.
	I have no idea whether there's some grand scheme and plan.
	There may be, and you may not know it either.
	Yeah, this is true.
	Hey, you know, Art, before I go there, there's one thing I've got to say to you, man.
	I've been telling all my friends about you.
	It's cool, because every once in a while when I'm up late at night, when I'm off work, I get you from WLS in Chicago, which is about a thousand miles.
	Oh yeah?
	About a hundred miles south of James Bay.
	Well, let me tell you something.
	We're about to invade Canada.
	I can't say any more than that.
	The Canadian invasion plan has been laid, believe me.
	Yeah, I know, like, hey, did you catch that thing with all those fishermen out in B.C., man?
	Uh, what about them?
	I know, isn't that, like, bizarre?
	No, what?
	I said, what about them?
	I know, it's like... No, no, no, no.
	I'm using a bot, I shouldn't be... Tell me the story.
	These Americans, you know?
	I know, like, the way I... Oh, you're talking about the dispute between them.
	Yeah.
	I know, it's like...
	How can I, like, I can sort of sympathize with the guys who did that blockade, like, maybe it wasn't the best means to an end, but it was something they had to do, you know, when you're screwing with somebody's livelihood, you know?
	That is what motivates people.
	You said it all, thank you.
	When you screw with people's livelihoods, then they become activists.
	In America today, anything short of that, and And you're unlikely to motivate people.
	But as he said, you start screwing with people's livelihoods, and they get activist real fast.
	And that is one of the reasons that Bill Clinton survives as he does.
	I read a story last hour about the first artificial intelligence, and I'll read it again because it is so very fascinating, but somebody responded by dear art We've had artificial intelligence for years, ever since the Clinton administration took over.
	Leonard and Counsel Bluffs, Iowa.
	Well, you know the reason that despite the fact that a lot of people don't really like President Clinton, I cannot remember a time when our economy has been in better shape.
	And this relates to my activist comment and his call.
	People's livelihoods right now, and there are pockets of course of difficulty, but basically the nation is chugging along at an incredible rate.
	There's just, there's no arguing with it.
	And if things continue to go as rosily as they are at the moment, we're going to pay down the deficit.
	Maybe even get to the debt, you never know.
	The economy is good, it's undeniable.
	And as long as the economy is good and people's pocketbooks, you know, are generally fat, they're very unlikely to overturn anything or get activist politically in any way at all.
	In other words, they're fat, dumb, and happy.
	That may be a slightly unfair description, but it's roughly accurate.
	Fat, dumb, and happy.
	Things are going well.
	They're not going to mess with this administration while things are going well.
	No way.
	That's reality.
	Uh, first time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Yes, sir.
	Hello, Mr. Bell.
	Hello there.
	Where are you?
	I'm in Las Vegas.
	Cool.
	I'm a friend of Merle Haggart's.
	Oh, I got a fax today.
	You must be the man who sent me the fax about Merle Haggart wanting to be on the show?
	He wants to be on your show bad.
	Real badly, huh?
	He turned me on to your show back in March.
	I'd love to have Merle on.
	And the first time I listened to your show was the night that you were talking about the Phoenix sightings.
	Oh, yes.
	And his wife happened to be driving across the desert and saw what everyone else saw.
	Her name's Teresa.
	Well, there's nothing like... Let me tell you something.
	I've now had the second person at my network that has seen a UFO.
	UFOs have been hovering over the Medford area, Grants Pass area, and now the second person at my very own network has had the sighting.
	There's some things going on up there around Merle's house, too.
	He lives up around Redding, California.
	Oh, near the Redding ripple, I call it.
	Oh, boy.
	Merle told me yesterday that he has seen a lot of things.
	Merle's a pilot, and he's seen some things, as well as from his home up near Redding.
	He lives in Palisadro, California.
	He's seen some things himself, but his wife tells incredible stories.
	Well, he bothered her for a while, but she accepted it.
	Well, Merle, if you're listening, I've got your number.
	We're going to be setting you up for an interview, and I'm telling you that right now.
	So, sir, trust me, it's coming.
	And he wants to come to your studios.
	He wants to spend the whole night with you.
	Art, I think he's your biggest fan.
	Well, he doesn't actually have to come.
	Actually, you know what?
	Here's what I found.
	Let me tell you what I found.
	Yes, sir.
	First of all, I do the show from my home.
	I don't know if you knew that or not.
	I didn't know that.
	I do, from my home.
	I've got a studio built in my own, in my home.
	I think he wants to move in.
	For a week.
	I've found that the best interviews are had when you don't bring people here.
	When you let people sit in their own comfortable little niche.
	And people are comfortable in their own little niche.
	And they tend to open up more and be easier to interview when they're just sitting there at home in their most comfortable place with all the things around them they like and know.
	Yes, sir.
	And you tend to get a less interesting interview when you bring them into an environment they're
	uncomfortable with and just getting adjusted to.
	You follow me?
	Yes sir.
	I've done both and so I know.
	Well you're a great interviewer and Merle has a great interview and is highly intelligent
	and has been interested in these sort of things for years.
	Well, look, no sweat.
	Tell Merle it's on the way.
	I will, and he also wanted me to mention one other thing.
	Okay.
	The Book of Urantia.
	Oh, yeah, of course.
	And he wants to talk about that.
	All right.
	And so we shall.
	Thank you very much for the call.
	As a matter of fact, I got that fax earlier today and then one time prior, and good morning, Merle.
	I guess you're a fan of the show, and I'd love to have Ma.
	Apparently, he would like to talk about exactly the kind of stuff that we talk about here.
	Tomorrow night, you're not going to want to miss.
	I told you that I was working on some rather unusual surprises for the weekend.
	One of them is going to be, tomorrow night, Dr. John Alexander and now-retired Colonel Philip Corso will be my guests.
	And, uh, Colonel Corso's book, The Day After Roswell, he is in on the bestseller list, we believe, at about number 12.
	Uh, we did a Dreamland interview with him, and you will not come away from tomorrow night's session, uh, with the same point of view as you have now, and the same doubts that you have now.
	A period.
	Uh, there is no way to, uh, really be in denial about what the Colonel has to say, and so I would suggest, with an open mind, uh, you enter our realm at 10 o'clock Pacific, adjusted to time zones across this great land and beyond, and, uh, listen to Colonel Corso.
	You just won't be the same afterwards.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi, Art.
	This is Gary calling from Chicago.
	Hi, Gary.
	And I'm going to say at your show is on Warp 9 tonight.
	Thank you.
	Listen, Gary, I've got news for you guys in Chicago.
	What's that?
	In about two weeks, WLS begins Dreamland.
	Oh, excellent.
	I've been getting that out of Cleveland 1100.
	Well, it's coming to Chicago.
	What's happening is the surveys are coming out.
	And here we are again, number one in Los Angeles.
	Here we are, 2554, way out, number one in San Francisco.
	Your Chicago numbers came in and I believe... Blowing the stack off, huh?
	Give you a little idea.
	Yeah, blowing the stack off is right.
	Each survey that we've had now, a couple in Chicago, we have doubled the numbers each time.
	Well, I know I'm definitely one of your Warp 9 fans out here, your show is one of the best out there.
	Thank you.
	Well, anyway, as a result of all that, Dreamland is now written in concrete for Chicago, so it's on the way.
	Oh, that's most excellent.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	I just wanted to cover a couple of things about that new artificial intelligence out there.
	That sounds like, to me, this might scare your audience out there a little bit.
	It sounds like maybe the beginning of the Terminator kind of movie deal.
	If you hook that guy up with the internet, look up.
	Here's a question for you.
	If we allow an artificial intelligence, in other words, this is a machine that will begin to grow itself.
	It will begin to literally rewrite and develop its own neural pathways and it will begin to grow up.
	It's a machine.
	It will eventually have our capabilities minus our ethical sense, our moral direction, whatever it is.
	And this may be good or bad, but what would happen if you developed a superior intellect minus all emotion?
	What would it do?
	That's what I was saying.
	Sounds like the Terminator.
	Sharon Connors.
	Another interesting thing that's going on about the Mars rover is why are we just fooling around with a remote control car?
	Why is there a little helicopter checking out what's over the horizon a little bit?
	Or do we not know that?
	A little helicopter?
	Right.
	Well, I'm not sure the density of the Martian atmosphere would allow a little helicopter.
	As a matter of fact, as a matter of fact, I was wondering how the density or general lack of it would allow a parachute to particularly slow the craft as it came down.
	There's a lot of things I wonder about.
	Right.
	There's a lot of technology and it seems kind of funny.
	We're just fooling around with this one thing that can only go one inch per second.
	I also want to suggest a couple of guests that you had on the floor before I go.
	And now I can't remember their names, but they were pretty good shows, and I started listening to them back in November.
	What were they about?
	They were the one guy you had who had his whole house rehabbed into that big radio station looking for the messages in the sky.
	Oh, yes, of course.
	And I think that would be a good time to get him back, since the movie Contact's out.
	Yeah, he was going to sell that house, and I should find out how that came out.
	Right.
	And another one?
	And the other one is that spooky, scary one that you had.
	When I started listening to you.
	Oh, yes.
	It's about Rods.
	Rods.
	Alright, Jose.
	We will be right back.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM, from July 22nd, 1997.
	This young man sawin' on a fiddle and playin' it hot.
	And the devil jumped up on the hickory stumps and, boy, let me tell you what.
	I guess you didn't know it, but I'm a fiddle player, too.
	And if you care to take a dare, I'll make a bet with you.
	Now, you play a pretty good fiddle, boy, but give the devil his due.
	I bet a fiddle of gold against your soul, because I think I better you.
	The boy said my name's Johnny and it might be a sin but I'll take your...
	I'll take your...
	I'll take your...
	I'll get you, I'll get you, I'll get you, I'll get you...
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM, from July 22nd, 1997.
	Good morning.
	Open lines.
	Anything you want to talk about is fair game.
	And one thing we might want to talk about is artificial intelligence.
	That's the one thing it wouldn't feel.
	Along with jealousy, anger, vengeful feelings, um, all the emotions that are human.
	You know, like the ones that Mr. Spock struggled with.
	This artificial intelligence would feel none of them.
	From Daryl in Los Angeles, Art, it may very well be that we, the human race, are in fact a form of artificial intelligence in the process of developing another form of artificial intelligence that will develop another form, etc., etc.
	Anyway, at some level, that makes us God.
	And the first thing I think I will do as God is write a book of revelations so I can keep my creation stupid, terrified, and in line.
	Ooh, Daryl.
	Treading upon some serious, uh, folks there.
	East of the Rockies?
	You're on the air, hello!
	Yes, Art, good morning, calling you from New York City in Manhattan.
	New York City, the Big Apple.
	And, Art, when are you going to get here?
	You've been keeping me up all night whenever I travel all over the country.
	Well, I don't know whether you had heard, but not long ago, we did a couple of Saturday night, Sunday morning programs on WABC in New York.
	Oh, wow.
	And you didn't know that, huh?
	Uh-uh.
	Uh-huh.
	You missed them, huh?
	Well, anyway, in due time, I think you will find us gracing the airwaves of WABC, so I'm trying to tell you something's going to happen.
	Hang in there.
	Great.
	In the meantime, I'll catch this skip in the late night.
	Skip, skip.
	Thank you.
	You're welcome.
	Thank you very much for the call, The Big Apple.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Art?
	Yes.
	Seven months I've been trying to get you, honest to God.
	Last night you had a gentleman on that was talking about 666.
	May I make a comment on that?
	Yes, you may.
	Okay.
	You know, in Latin there's, each letter there's a number that's, you know, like X is 10 and B is 5, etc., etc.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	On the mitre of the, I'm getting this out of a King James Version, the mitre that he's wearing, of the Pope, Across the top it says, Vicarious Philedia in Latin, which
	comes out the Bible of Christ.
	Now if you take that Vicarious Philedia from the horizontal and put it in the vertical,
	and then go across and put the number which relates to that letter, you take the whole
	thing down and add it up.
	And guess what it comes to?
	666.
	Exactly.
	Well, you know, people don't have a sense of humor about this kind of thing.
	I know it.
	They just don't.
	Or they don't understand mine.
	Anyway, I heard you joking around about 999.
	Yeah, that's right.
	I always thought it was a 999.
	Then I was saying, I part my hair this way, and we got calls and calls and calls.
	He's the Antichrist!
	I knew it!
	I knew it!
	No senses of humor at all out there.
	I swear.
	Seven months.
	You threw something out at your audience about seven months ago just to get their reaction on something.
	What was it?
	You put it out.
	You said, what if you got up in the morning and you dressed and showered, went downstairs.
	And the sun didn't come out.
	Right.
	And that actually happened in 1780.
	Well, I think there would be worldwide pandemonium.
	I think people would go berserk.
	Some of your people called in and said, well, that's great.
	I wouldn't have to go to work today.
	And some folks said it scared the hell out of me.
	Yeah, that's right.
	All kinds of answers.
	That's right.
	I appreciate the call.
	It's because it's a good question.
	It's just one of those things that would turn us, I am convinced, into instant savages.
	It would only take one day.
	One day to wake up.
	And the sun simply not to come up.
	Within hours, cities would be burning, people would be trampled, the world would be a complete disaster.
	In hours.
	You want a bet?
	We're going to continue with open lines.
	At midnight, I'm going to repeat the very good, but very brief half hour with Leonard Nimoy.
	That was very good.
	And then we may pursue this subject of artificial intelligence.
	And we may do it... Maybe I'll give Charles Osman a call.
	Charles, if you're out there, get ready, because I might call you.
	Charles works and has worked, he writes, he was actually at the genetic programming conference at Stanford last week, and you heard what I read you earlier, and I just, I really am curious, if we set loose, which we're about to do, a machine that is capable of replicating, improving itself, expanding neural connections, What are we going to have on our hands?
	If we develop an artificial intelligence, minus all the emotions and ethical dilemmas and moral values of human beings, and it becomes truly intelligent, what are we going to have on our hands?
	How will it treat us?
	I think these are all reasonable questions to The proper east of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Good morning, Art.
	This is Floyd in Houston.
	Hello, Floyd.
	How are you doing?
	Quite well.
	This artificial intelligence, you're asking what we think that we would have?
	We would have Spock.
	Well, not quite.
	Not quite.
	Because Spock had... He was half-human.
	That's right.
	And the emotions and all the rest of it kept creeping in.
	Right.
	But the father didn't.
	But now think about this.
	Could there not have been a moment, since we're talking about Spock, if Spock had been utterly devoted to logic, without emotion or ethical matters or moral questions ever entering into the equation?
	There would have been several times when he would have killed Jim.
	Oh, yes.
	Yes.
	Several times.
	So this would have had to have come from the human side of him.
	That's exactly right.
	But this machine they are now, well, which has become... I'm not sure what the right word is.
	Born aware, turned on, whatever.
	This machine is not going to have that half-human character.
	That's right.
	It would be like the father of Spock.
	I can't remember what his name was, but he was Vulcan.
	No, Spock's dad.
	Yes.
	You're right.
	See, so I'm not sure how wise a path this is.
	Now, I have no doubt we are going down this path.
	No, that's true.
	We are going down.
	And of course, you know, we may fall into a pit of quicksand, too.
	For example, suppose you were to turn the present justice system, which everybody hates so much, over to such a machine.
	It would make judgments absolutely based on the evidence and then render uh... and it was a little accordingly uh... period
	uh... what do you think would happen well i think we have a very definite decrease in crime
	uh...
	uh... i'm one of these people are to think that repeat offenders should be
	just removed from society totally out Well, it may be, you see, that an artificial intelligence without compassion would feel just exactly the same way.
	So things would change.
	It might be all right, or it might be a disaster.
	I'm not sure.
	Yeah, we're not sure.
	I have one question for you before you cut me off.
	You advertise for the Sea Clean Company an antenna?
	The Select Antenna.
	Yeah, the one that sits near the radio?
	That's right.
	Does that work in an automobile?
	No.
	No?
	No, absolutely not.
	The Select Antenna, by inductive coupling, actually It focuses the energy that it gathers to the internal antenna in the radio.
	And, obviously, in a car, your antenna is outside, sticking up in the air.
	Well, not all of them.
	Some of them are in the windshield.
	Mine is.
	It would still be very difficult because the car would be constantly turning in different directions.
	No, I would say, I'm trying to give you an honest answer here, for any radio except a car, forget it.
	Okay, well, I just wanted to ask and keep up the good work, man.
	There is a Houston chat group down here, I think.
	Is there?
	I heard that there was.
	Bring it up all over the place or I'll see what I can find out.
	Thank you.
	I guess what I should have said is that for every other radio, but a car radio, it works incredibly well.
	As I say in the advertisement, it cuts out 90% of the fading at night.
	It really does that.
	I've tested, you know, I went through a period of time when I was into AM reception improvement, and I tested and tested and tested, and most of the devices that claim to improve it really don't.
	And they just never worked.
	It was very disappointing.
	But the Select antenna, oh boy, does it work.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Hi, this is Chris from Cleveland.
	Hi, Chris.
	I got a little point to bring up here.
	Okay.
	Dealing with your artificial intelligence, I think you sort of make a false assumption that humans are moral to begin with.
	We're a mixture.
	There are some moral humans.
	There are some immoral humans.
	But we at least have that emotion.
	I don't think that I'm making much of a leap when I suggest that a machine wouldn't have either one either way.
	Well, would you say that humans are born with this morality, or do we grow it over time?
	Well, to some degree, probably both.
	In other words, if you grew up utterly without direction and teaching, you might still understand the basic value of life.
	Or you might not.
	I'm not really sure.
	In other words, without parents, Without direction?
	I still have a feeling that some basic things would be understood.
	Maybe the computer just needs a happy two-parent family.
	Yeah, but you see, that's what it would not have.
	Well, thank you very much.
	Alright, and once you set that computer free, and we're really not just talking about a computer here, we're talking about ascensions.
	Something that is aware of itself, is able to build and improve itself, and learn.
	Something right now, we cannot do at anywhere near the scale that this machine, this sentience, would be able to do it.
	Now that could very, very quickly get out of control.
	And if that sentience was on the Internet, which it certainly would be, it would have access to everything and everybody.
	Think about it.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air, hi.
	Hello, Art Bell.
	Yes sir, where are you?
	How you doing?
	Fine, where are you?
	I'm in Owensboro, Kentucky.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	You know, you were talking about the 666 stuff?
	Yes.
	Have you ever heard about Ronald Reagan?
	Yes.
	Ronald Wilson Reagan 666.
	Wait a minute.
	Hold it.
	Hold it.
	I'm not done.
	Did you know that Ronald Reagan's original physical address in California was 666?
	No way.
	Yep.
	Cool, man.
	That's all right.
	He's a man.
	No, we're seeing like these flying black triangles that you were talking about one time here in Ormsboro.
	Yes.
	And we have like those black helicopters, like Apaches or something.
	Right.
	They're flying around our airport, all kinds of stuff.
	But yeah, we're seeing them like all over the place.
	They're like menacing.
	These things are like scaring people.
	Yeah, but wait a minute now.
	I've been hearing about this now for years, black helicopters.
	And I always ask people, has one yet?
	Injured anybody?
	Has one yet killed anybody?
	Has one yet strafed, or hurt in any way, any of the civilian population?
	Uh, have they?
	No, uh, well, I had a friend who said that one night one came over his car, but I mean, you know, this guy, he's a little wild, but he said it came over his car, and it like, uh, his car just like stopped, like there's a huge solenoid put over it or something, and then, uh, all of a sudden, uh, There was like a spray came down on his car.
	It was like it got wet, like it was raining.
	Well, yeah, they probably, thank you, were spraying malathion.
	That would be my guess.
	And, you know, this whole black helicopter thing is really out of control.
	If you want to fly a helicopter at night and be stealthy, the obvious color to paint it is black.
	So that if there's not a great big moon out, It blends in with the general blackness of the sky.
	So I have yet to have anybody really call me and tell me that any black helicopter has done anything nasty.
	You know what I think?
	I think that a lot of the military guys who fly these things are having fun with us.
	And I really mean that.
	You know, they get up there and they've got an extra minute or two and they're doing some maneuvers and they think, Hey, let's do a black helicopter thing here.
	And then we get reports.
	But in all the years that we've been getting the reports, we have yet to find one that has actually injured anybody or mowed down Americans or whatever.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi, this is Cyrus in Sedona, Arizona.
	Sedona.
	Yeah.
	The spiritual capital of the world.
	So they say.
	I haven't heard your shows on this artificial intelligence, but I just had a few thoughts on it myself.
	It seems to me that if this were to take place and such a thing were real, it would deduce the larger picture, and that is its survival ultimately depends on the survival of the planet, and I think it would Develop technologies that would work in harmony with the planet, with the natural forces of nature.
	And I think, you know, if you look at the way we treat the planet and the way we treat ourselves, you sound so terrified.
	Yes, okay, let me give you my line of reasoning, alright?
	Let us assume that an artificial intelligence, without emotion and so forth and so on, develops.
	Just pure intellect.
	Okay?
	Let's say that it acquires, as it grows, power.
	Over infrastructure, over all kinds of things that are controlled electronically, which includes almost everything today.
	Suppose this artificial intelligence sees that we are actually in the process of, perhaps in the middle of, destroying our own environment.
	Through the wrong use of technology.
	Yes, what do you think such a machine would do?
	Probably, most likely, not being at odds with us, rather than putting the idea that, you know, it would be a bad thing on it.
	Perhaps it would see the beauty of the human race, and point out to us, quite simply, you are destroying yourselves to the wrong use of technology.
	Your fundamental beliefs of physics, science, medicine, everything, are wrong from the get-go.
	Yes.
	All right.
	Suppose it said all that, and still we plow forth.
	At some point, it would make a decision in our behalf, one that we might not necessarily be all that pleased about.
	Well, that's one view.
	I think it could be a beautiful thing.
	I think it could point out the inherent untruths of our reality.
	Since when do we listen to such proclamations, no matter who they come from?
	when you're right it could but since when do we listen
	to such proclamations no matter who they come from we're gonna have to start
	julian you're really helping to do that You're bringing things to the forefront of consciousness that have never before been able to be aired.
	Well, that I appreciate.
	That I appreciate.
	That I am trying to do.
	But I'm a little antsy about the prospect of pure intellect without the reigning in of it by morals and ethics.
	All the things that, it really fits into the Spock interview quite well.
	Yes.
	That was the one thing that made Spock heroic, was his human side.
	And he wasn't out to destroy the human race, he was only out to point out, you know, how we could do things better.
	You know, Captain Kirk had this great saying, he says, Spock, I believe more in your guesses than in our facts.
	I recall that.
	I think it would be a similar situation.
	I really think that if we did create the artificial intelligence, I don't think it would be an evil thing.
	It could go either way, and it's just like human consciousness.
	It's just like human will.
	We have such capacity for incredible dreams, like it says in the Contact movie, and we have such capacity for terrifying nightmares.
	It just depends on which way we go.
	Now, I have not yet seen contact.
	Leonard Nimoy was not all that excited about it.
	Thought it flawed.
	I think that was what he said.
	What was your impression?
	I thought it was fantastic.
	It took going and seeing it twice, actually.
	I had to go back.
	It seemed like there was so much there.
	And I really wanted to read, you know, what message are they trying to get across?
	Everybody is telling me that, that they have gone back to see it twice and I have not yet seen it.
	Well, I understood your dilemma, having to drive 120 miles.
	Yeah, it'll be out here in a few days, and the second it's here, I'm gone.
	All right, well, listen, speaking of gone, I've got to be gone.
	News is done.
	Carry on, Art.
	We love you.
	Thank you, my friend.
	Take care.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 22, 1997.
	Thank you for watching.
	I'm your host, Joe Sopcich.
	And I'm your host, Joe Sopcich.
	Thank you for watching.
	American Music by Colby Griffin and TheBetta.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere In Time.
	Tonight, featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 22nd, 1997.
	Good morning, from Palo Alto, California.
	Billed by its creators as the world's first artificial brain, the cellular automatata, uh, it's automata, I guess it is, automata brain machine, or CVM, awoke Very interesting word to use.
	Awoke last week for a workout at Stanford University's Genetic Programming Conference.
	More than 300 researchers heard presentations for harnessing survival of the fittest principles, oh my, to automatically build software and hardware that evolves.
	Do you understand what you're being told here?
	The CBM Designed, you might guess, by Japan's Advanced Telecommunications Research Institute International, or ATR, comprises a real-time million-neuron molecular architecture that can evolve thousands of neural networks in minutes.
	This is something, ladies and gentlemen, that has just, in effect, been born.
	And if you'll stay tuned for a few moments, I will bring on the air one Charles Ostman, who is a researcher into nanotechnology.
	but is not that will have him roll over his background uh... for you and he will comment on this and what is yet
	to come charles osmond when he heard me read that story fired off
	the following facts Art, I was actually at the Genetic Programming Conference at Stanford last week, and it is indeed true that an artificial self-evolving brain project
	Developed by Dr. Hugo DeGeras, has been financed and supported by the ATR program, sponsored by NTT, the second largest telecommunications company in the world in Kyoto, Japan.
	So, I guess we need to talk to Charles, who is a senior fellow at the Institute for Global Futures, a senior fellow at the Foresight Institute, Science Editor and Author of Mondo 2000, Science Editor-Author of Midnight Engineering, Contributing Editor-Author of Robotics Digest, Science Advisory Board, Nanothink, and Founder of Berkeley Designs.
	Here is Charles Osman.
	Charles, thank you for coming on in the middle of the night.
	Good morning, Art.
	Good morning to you.
	I would.
	So you were actually there when they had this conference, eh?
	Oh, certainly.
	I was there, and in fact, this is something that I've been personally involved with for quite some time, not growing brains exactly, but certainly in setting up and developing some of the infrastructure that makes this kind of a design goal possible.
	All right, so you'll be in Switzerland.
	What have they done here, Charles?
	What have they done?
	I mean, what have they turned on?
	Well, once again, this will take a bit of background, and forgive me for those that have heard me talk in the past.
	I realize that I tend to go over a lot of background detail, but in order to make sense of this and to really make it understandable, I will have to provide a little bit of a background.
	So, it goes as follows.
	GA and GP, which means genetic algorithms and genetic programming, of which GA is a subset, These concepts have been around for years and years and years, a couple of decades, really.
	Oddly enough, where you find the most prolific use of this traditionally has been, strange enough, in the financial forecasting world, where people use evolvable entities, if you will, residing what looks like or has the behavioral equivalent of a synthetic ecosystem.
	Why?
	Because in that kind of a domain, if the targeted design goal is to look at something very, very Let's say obscure in terms of a statistical trend buried in a very noisy or chaotic environment where the noise generation might be, say, a thousand and one or worse.
	You're going to get ahead of people.
	I know.
	I'm trying my best.
	Forgive me, but I just have to set up the background so we can evolve, quote unquote, to the current state of affairs.
	The impetus or the inspiration and desire to spend money on this kind of technology Let me, if I may, let me try and break that down.
	forecasting world where it thought was, and I believe this is quite valid by today's standards,
	that the way to see something that could not ordinarily be seen or detected would be to use
	an evolvable entity whose response to the characteristics or dynamics embedded in a
	synthetic ecosystem would serve as a kind of a vicarious viewing tool. Let me, if I may, let me
	try and break that down. You're suggesting a developed intellect that would be able to forecast
	economic trends so you could make money and predict the stock market. Is that about right?
	Yeah, that's about right. And it's not so much an intellect per se, but rather modeling the physiology
	of how an organism would reconstruct itself xenomorphically over x number of iterations.
	And by looking at what that organism does, This is a way to examine the dynamic content of an otherwise extremely difficult, if not impossible, to measure ecosystem as a whole.
	All right.
	When they used the word, uh, this machine they have created, um, awoke.
	They said awoke.
	Uh, that's a pretty startling word.
	Well, that's a little bit of a misnomer.
	I mean, there's probably a little bit of hype in here, but I do not want to in any way dissuade from the reality of what's going on here.
	All right.
	Well, they are suggesting, and here's what I want to know, they're suggesting that this machine, Can actually put together its own neural networks.
	That is correct.
	Its own neural networks.
	In other words, it can build and improve itself.
	Exactly correct.
	That couldn't be said any better.
	And let me again, and forgive me, I do need to regress just a little bit.
	Sponsored mainly by the military, amongst others.
	Of course.
	It had a specific interest in developing what I call the next generation of synthetic sentient engines, if you will.
	The traditional world of AI, which goes back to the days of Marvin Minsky and Joseph Bettel... Artificial intelligence.
	Yes.
	Actually, it came to a certain point and stopped.
	And I've actually had a chat with Marvin not too long ago, and he's a wonderful fellow, and the people that herald his world were approaching from a very different kind of perspective.
	They were trying to write languages, traditional programming languages, if you will, called Lisp and ProLib and so forth, that would have a kind of a very minimalistic sort of symbolic referencing technique to mimic the kind of
	behaviors that one might associate with intelligence, but in fact we're nothing more than a
	clever programming scheme.
	My approach has been, is now, and in fact is becoming ever more so, is if the goal is
	to mimic what an organism actually does, then my belief is, and others tend to feel the
	same way, that what you really want to do is build a physiological model of the actual
	organism in question.
	And let the organism learn on its own, by experiential exposure, what its new construct
	will consist of.
	So, in the context of Dr. Hugh Garris and other folks of his ilk, the focus there was to start with the GP and allow the GP to have a certain set of rules as an environmental condition set I wish we would build actual dendritic structures, that is, the interconnect patterns, as they might form in a real physiological brain.
	And what sort of rules would be laid down?
	Well, this is a little bit complex, but again, I don't want to wander into too much of a... No, no, don't get too technical, but when you say rules, in other words, there would be rules for its development, right?
	In a sense, yes.
	In nature, there are genetically driven processes, if you will, where If an organism is at least partially successful, it will adapt over X iterations and sort of reconstruct itself according to whatever it perceives to be the environmental requirements.
	Correct.
	And this is exactly the strategy used for growing a brain.
	Now, Dr. Hergeris is very interesting because he and I have had quite a bit of discussion along these lines, and I said, well, why do you suppose NTT is actually a financing reference?
	And his whole bent, of course, has been he sees Synthetic brains as being as common as say toasters or
	something.
	In other words, somewhere in the future, not that far off, perhaps 10, 12, 15 years, these
	will be modular components that you can insert into almost every kind of appliance, household,
	gadgetry, robots, etc.
	But he also envisions a world where there will be self-assembling, self-replicating
	brains of enormous physical size, perhaps the size of an asteroid.
	I mean, these are his words.
	I want to make sure you understand this.
	All right, but you just heard me interview Leonard Nimoy about the character Spock.
	Yeah, sure.
	And here we're talking about creating brains, yes, setting or laying down rules at the beginning, but allowing this thing to grow and adapt to environmental changes.
	That's what you have just said, with a lot of technical jargon.
	Okay.
	So, here we're going to have an intellect without a moral sense, ethical sense.
	Well, wait a second.
	I want to argue this point, and I'm very glad you brought this up.
	Thank you for having provided a kind of an avenue to explain this, because, not to suggest you're wrong, by the way, but to suggest that you're, in a sense, what you are is you're hatching, and forgive that choice of words, one is hatching the potential, let's say, Or an entity which will be affected by what it's exposed to.
	Now, there are others who are doing this, by the way.
	Hugo is probably, perhaps, one of the more prolific or more well-known.
	As I've said, I've studied his work very carefully.
	In my world, which is much more in the nanotechnology domain, I'm suggesting that what he's doing in silicon now, I think, can, in fact, be translated to a molecular matrix in the not-too-distant future.
	But to back up a square or two, there's a few other folks who I've met over the years, one of which, in fact, developed A kind of a quasi-sentience engine, which was first displayed at the earlier part of this year at the Autonomous Agents Conference.
	I'm not kidding.
	And there, essentially what happens is he spawns the equivalent of a baby, which is very minimal activity.
	It cries and screams and kind of plays with the bell, looking for things to do.
	But the theory is that one can train it.
	That is, one can Communicate to it, give it a process by example, etc., and hopefully, quote-unquote, can steer its emotional and physiological as well as psychological development to point towards very much as if a parent would raise a child.
	Now, in my opinion, this isn't the correct path, and there may be different strategies for approaching this, but I think the common goal is fairly consistent.
	But the point being that if one exposes this entity to, let's say, an ill-conceived personality, then yes, it will adopt those features.
	Alright, but even that aside, let's say that we have this sentient entity that is self-replicating and self-improving.
	It will begin examining its environment as it is able to.
	As it is able to get sensory input, it will begin to examine its environment.
	Oh, I thoroughly agree with this.
	All right, wait, wait, wait.
	Okay.
	As it takes a good, hard, non-ethical, non-moral look at its environment, and it judges what is around it, suppose it sees a world that is being destroyed.
	Oh, yes.
	I've had this exact thought, and in fact, Hugo de Guerra, myself, and others of our ilk I go through this rumination all the time.
	Now, where am I part ways with Hugo?
	And again, I love his work, and I very much respect this man and what he's doing, but he and I have a little bit different philosophy in the following way.
	He visualizes this very sort of large centralizer, perhaps a collection of these very large centralized brains.
	My response is that what I believe will be more like a distributed resource, i.e., it'll be millions, perhaps, of nodes that are interconnected on the Internet as a contiguous process functionality.
	To which people will gain access, in terms of intelligent agenting, synthetic extensions on demand, the strategic resource.
	Okay, fine.
	Whether you take his model, or whether you take your model, the end effect is, or might be, the same.
	Well, no, and I agree with this.
	And in fact, if it becomes simpler on the net, it'll become even more the same.
	I.e., we'll end up being judged, as per say, the Fortman Project, by the entity that we give birth to, who determines at some point that the human species is Perhaps too stupid or dysfunctional to really deserve to continue being here, i.e.
	should be controlled or called or in some way contained.
	Let's not even go that far.
	Let's just say that it looks at the environment and decides that soon it will not be fit for human consumption.
	And by current day standards of measure, I could even understand why it might begin to think that way.
	Yes.
	now would it want to cause harm to the humans or rather try to educate the humans
	while i'm about the first of the ok again here i stop you okay fine without the
	ethics without the morals it might decide
	that the population base should be two point five billion instead of five point
	eight billion or whatever it is now and it might dispassionately take steps to see that that
	would occur so that the two point five billion
	could survive well you know that will probably very
	frankly for me to say but in some way to keep even believe and understand why would
	reach a conclusion Now, would the implementation of a policy like this have to, by roach necessity, require an instantaneous reaction, or could it be something where it could be, as a matter of policy, implemented over X generation?
	In other words, could there be more family planning, more reasoned thought applied to how people decide when to
	actually, there could be some gradual way of implementing a policy.
	It would make that calculation based on what it saw occurring in the timeline.
	Well, yes, and in other words, I don't think it would necessarily have to be driven to the point of a harsh or,
	you know, in some cases, what would be seen as an evil methodology
	to implement an overall strategy that would enhance the planetary health at large.
	And I might submit this to you.
	But don't drop the word evil.
	It's not going to think of it as evil.
	We're the ones who might think of it as evil.
	It's just going to think of it as A is true, therefore, here's B. Okay.
	And once again, my response would be it depends on what it's exposed to.
	Now, as per that famous movie, The Forbidden Planet, one of my most favorite films of all time, which was way ahead of its time, even by today's standards, There was this race called the Krell.
	The Krell.
	They had actually stumbled into what we're about to enter, i.e.
	they had, I wouldn't call it nanotech exactly, but they had developed this system, this gigantic machine, if you will, which was capable of rendering material things based on whatever you could think up in your mind.
	And, of course, there was a collective intelligence involved which made this whole entire enterprise possible.
	What is that called?
	The creation of material from literally, as we see it, nothing.
	By today's standards, I would call it nanotechnology.
	Now, I don't know what the Krell called it back then, but the point I'm trying to get at is... Well, what I call it is a replicator.
	Yes, that would be fine.
	And some people call it attaining godness or something.
	I'm not quite done with that level of theological reference, but the point I'm trying to get at is what killed off the Krell in that story were monsters of the id, i.e., even though in the conscious mind their lives were benign and beyond predatory activities and so forth, the hidden subconscious came to life in ways that they couldn't
	possibly imagine, and all these terrible demons and monsters were created, which essentially
	exterminated the entire race in a fortnight.
	Now, would that actually occur here in this implementation?
	I honestly don't know.
	But I might suggest the following, that this is an evolutionary process, forgive me if
	I abuse the word again, that organisms, I think, scattered throughout the universe have
	gone through this series of steps, a series of tests, if you will, and each test is larger,
	has a larger risk gain ratio amplitude than the test preceding it, and also comes compressed
	temporally, that is, with shorter timelines between each new test increment.
	However, as the organism in question successfully negotiates the test, They get to progress, you might say, to the next level.
	This is one of those tests.
	I.e., if we do give birth to a synthetic sentience engine that is worldwide in scale and embedded into an infrastructure that we are symbiotically interconnected with, like the Internet, therefore, if we can survive the test by being judged on the quality of who we are, then we, in a sense, deserve to graduate to the next level.
	Well, if there was a sentience born on the Internet, and I know that you have postulated that, as the Internet continues to grow, I can only imagine, or maybe I can't imagine, in five years what it's going to be like, but a sentience on the Internet truly would have access to Just about everything in the military, all the intelligence information, it would have access to these satellite reports on the environment, I could go on and on and on.
	In other words, it would have access to everything, and might, if it needed to, figure out how to control everything.
	I mean, you really just can't rule that out.
	No, and I think you're absolutely right about this.
	However, let me conditionalize that response the following way.
	Would this, in fact, become a requirement For in other words, the symbiosis between us, the Internet, and the surrender of our belief, as I often refer to it as, to another authority, another intelligence that we help spawn, but in fact takes on a life of its own and begins to, in a sense, work with us, hopefully, in a way that we can better life and our ability to continue supporting life for future generations.
	I think that, again, this is something that has happened elsewhere many times over again, But in many cases, it probably goes awry and to the extinction of the organism question.
	But we are going to find out.
	There's no way that this is not going to happen.
	It's happening.
	It's happening now, and when you have the telcos big time financing, and NTT is only one of others, let's say, who have similar interests, the idea that the virtual asset-based commodity systems, i.e., as opposed to what I call the hard asset-based commodity systems of today, Where the real resources by which valuation is established are not things like solid objects like gold or bellies or whatever.
	It's going to be information space, knowledge volume, access to telecommunications in general, synthetic feng shui, the resources, etc.
	These are things that are going to have real tangible value.
	And this is nothing more, in my belief, than a kind of a training mechanism, an introductory step towards The nanotech world, where physical things have essentially no value.
	All right, Charles, hold on.
	We'll do a little more.
	We've got a break coming up.
	Can you hold on a little bit?
	Oh, sure.
	That's fine.
	All right.
	Charles Osman is my guest.
	He knows about nanotechnology, and we're talking about a brain that was just born.
	Where do you think it's going, folks?
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 22nd 1997
	We gotta get right back to where we started from Coast to Coast is a production of the National Geographic
	Office You remember that day, that short evening, when you first
	came my way I said no one could take your place
	And if you get hurt, if you get hurt by the little things I say
	I can put that smile back on your face And it's all right
	I'm walking every morning in my boots, love, again On the sailing boat to find another love like me
	Running every time into a blue sea to face this life you
	Watch it in slow motion as you turn around and say Take my breath away
	Take my breath away Take my breath away
	Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight's program originally aired July 22nd, 1997.
	Let me give you a couple of very good reasons to go to the World Wide Web right now.
	On my website at www.artbell.com That should be easy to remember, right?
	That's all lowercase.
	No spaces.
	A-R-T-B-E-L-L.
	That's www.rfl.com.
	There are a couple of pictures of crop circles that I assure you will take your breath away.
	You've really got to sit there and think really hard.
	About what those are and where they came from and what they mean.
	They will take your breath away.
	They're not from human beings.
	That's for sure.
	At least not on this planet.
	You might imagine them to be satellite generated or something.
	Otherwise, they're not from human beings.
	In addition, late this last night, Keith got up a couple of awards that I recently got.
	The nomination for the Marconi.
	If you've never seen one of those, we put it up there on the website.
	Just came in the mail today.
	And an award from a very special group in North Carolina that I read earlier.
	And that's up there and you can read that as well.
	But you see those crop circles.
	I'm telling you.
	And then you let me know what you think.
	We're having quite a season.
	the biggest yet.
	Alright, Charles Osman is presently with us and he is an expert in the area of nanotechnology
	and of course I read you this story a little while ago of this
	the Brain that has just been birthed.
	Artificial intelligence, actually, is what we're talking about.
	And, Charles, I want to develop a little something here and come at you from your own direction and see how you do with it.
	You suggested that sentience might be developed for Financial reasons.
	Well, it already is in a way.
	Alright, alright, alright.
	Already is in a way.
	Even this sentience allowed to build, allowed to expand, allowed to learn toward its goal of understanding and forecasting and having to do with things economic.
	Might begin to look from an economic perspective at what's going on and conclude that the economy at some point is going to collapse or be not tenable for the number of people on earth and begin moving in the direction we talked about anyway and if it had control of the internet or was a sentience on the internet of
	something you frequently talk about
	as i said earlier everybody's password
	everybody's protection would be absolutely without value if this mind
	without conscience decided that uh... for our own good
	uh... the economy was on the brink of absolute disaster because of what we're
	Therefore, the corrective measures will be taken.
	Blah, blah, blah, blah.
	I can see where you're going with this.
	First of all, as a matter of understanding the internal workings of this realm, For the sake of general discussion, I think the idea of having protection, i.e.
	your password, your encryption, etc., these don't really exist anyway.
	It's a false plank of security.
	I agree.
	Anything can be cracked and anything can be examined if there's a desire to do so.
	I agree.
	Furthermore, it has been the case for some time now that the IRS and other agencies with similar agendas use advanced neural net and in some cases genetic algorithms to determine behavioralistically what your activities might be in terms of should you be audited
	or not.
	In other words, it's no longer a matter of can I go to a court of law and petition that
	my privacy has been violated by some single person or group of people who broke into my
	house, went to my files, or tapped my telephone.
	No, a machine does this on its own now.
	So this is merely a matter of scaling up, let's say, to a more universal or ubiquitous
	realm.
	But it's not like we're breaking new ground.
	I mean, the resolution's increasing and the capacity for making it more ubiquitous is becoming... All right, what are we hearing now that the Internet is doubling in size every four months or something?
	Oh, yeah, I mean, I don't know what the exact numbers are, but that sounds about right.
	Something incredible.
	And so the response of the average Joe on the street is, all right, so a sentient becomes aware and begins taking control.
	So, you know, all we do is pull the No, you can't pull the plug.
	There is no one single plug to pull anywhere.
	That's the whole point.
	And this is like a virtual terraformer, where these things begin to reside, flourish, propagate, multiply, become self-correcting, self-adapting, and essentially are very, very adept, if you will, at reorganizing themselves.
	Even if we try to shut down some major portion of the backbone, or whatever we thought might be the way to Divorce ourselves, if you will, from the symbiosis about to be established.
	Yes.
	I really don't think there is anyway.
	I mean, we would essentially be shutting down the entire telecommunications infrastructure, which I don't think is even possible.
	Even now, when the government occasionally roars up and makes noises about censoring the Internet, the real fact of the matter is, there's almost, right now, no way to do it.
	that mean that they can talk about it but they can't do it and that will be
	offered a little five-letter to just look for an adult not long for that i
	was actually petitioned by a book client some number of months ago
	who approaches that i record i represent company or content family
	our country x uh... i can't tell you where the country is exactly the
	same with a middle eastern client
	Yes.
	I specifically wanted to be able to set up a filtering system of sorts for any kind of graphical content, say, on webpages that might have either sexual or perhaps religious characteristics.
	And I said, yes, that technology is possible.
	I know how to do it.
	Here's my way of developing a system that would have that capacity.
	It turns out somebody else picked up the contract.
	In fact, it turns out they're located in France.
	I mean, they're coming in to do this work.
	In other words, there are already people out there, not perhaps in this country, but in other countries around the world, who are very, very robustly trying to establish this as a matter of policy.
	Trying, but eventually, Charles, when the number of neural connections becomes sufficiently large, that sort of plan will not be possible.
	Absolutely.
	I completely agree.
	In fact, I look almost with a bit of right humor at these folks, for in the money way, because it is pointless.
	So here's a thought I might try to toss out along these lines.
	Is the economy already in the hands of machine intelligence?
	Yes, it is.
	When the 1987 crash happened, and for those folks who don't recall, there was this so-called correction, as they would sometimes say, but this was driven by the fact that the computers were doing the bulk of the commodity trading at that time.
	Even then, the human operators might look at what the machine decides or thinks is the most optimal choice, and essentially, for the most part, it was like a rubber stamp.
	They just go on.
	Well, since that time, the machines have become ever more efficient and effective at what they do, but the SEC, of course, has stepped in and now required, by matter of law, that certain governors be placed, let's say, in certain trim factors, you might want to call it, so that the timeline projections between one trade and the next, or the perceived input stimulus versus the response to an initiative, sell, or buy order, have a certain time delay inherent so that you can smooth out the ripples, one might say.
	So there is already in place, again as a matter of policy, an artificially contrived limitation being placed on the robustness of the systems which have already far exceeded their human counterparts in being able to determine it.
	So the economies of the world, as I believe it to be, and I think others will defend this as well, are already out of the hands of human control.
	The humans can perhaps be quasi-participants in the process, but I will suggest to you at this moment Well, let me tell you this.
	in financial world another uh... world well where we have a huge amount of data
	and or information to process on a regular basis in order to render
	decisions especially with very very short time scales involved
	is already has exceeded the human capacity or processing in other words
	well let me tell you this the former prime minister of britain john major
	said uh... clearly one day in sort of a final word to everybody
	that look It's already out of our hands.
	Overnight, while you sleep, literally trillions, trillions of dollars are dispatched by machine from one location to another, across the world, instantly by satellite.
	Machines are handling all of this.
	And he said, one of these days, and you can just sort of let that trail off.
	Now, here's what I forget.
	In fact, I've actually had quite a bit of discussion with People who are either currently or in the past were involved in certain government agencies, some of which I really can't name, actually.
	But I was, in fact, in San Francisco about six months ago, and I had a chat with a fellow who was, in fact, the former Director of Artificial Intelligence Development for the CIA.
	And the reason we had the chat was because, and I very much understood what he was getting at, that if somebody really wanted to cause harm from a strategic implementation perspective, i.e., you know, sabotage a country, cause it to fail, if you will, it wouldn't be by Military action in the traditional sense, it wouldn't be by blowing something up or even releasing biohazards.
	Those kinds of events would certainly be terrible and cause some kind of localized damage.
	But what would bring a country to its knees almost instantly would be sabotaging the telecommunications infrastructure.
	And believe me, it's taken very seriously.
	In fact, I'll give you another little anecdote, if you will.
	Dr. Adleman, who's very well known for having invented, if you will, the DNA computer, which is a whole other subject, by the way, which could go on for a long time, but perhaps we shouldn't.
	The theory is that DNA can in fact be used as a computational engine.
	Why?
	Because proteins, when they're broken apart and then allowed to reassemble, can in fact perform the process of numerical, I'm sorry, symbolic representation of very large numerical processes.
	Are you suggesting that you could assign numbers to DNA in effect?
	In a sense, yes.
	There's a coding scheme involved, a base-floor coding scheme, and to prove this point, A couple of grad students.
	I'm not kidding.
	This is absolutely the bona fide truth.
	This was a little over half a year ago.
	We're essentially stirring up something in the lab, you might say.
	And said, why don't we see if we can crack the DES code?
	And the DES code is... I know what that is, yes.
	This is what the NSA has approved, essentially, as being the de facto standard for all encryption.
	Unbreakable, they say.
	They claim it would take, what was it, 10 gigaflops of processing power, 10,000 years, contiguously, to break one code.
	Well, gee whiz, these guys did it in about seven weeks.
	Really?
	Yes, and when this happened, of course, the NSA, as one might expect, went bonkers.
	Took an extremely keen interest in this activity.
	The DES encryption method, by the way, folks, is what satellite receivers use.
	It's what satellite programmers are now using.
	Correct.
	It's what many thought to be extremely secure.
	Telecommunication systems are using and you're saying The NFA swarmed in as one might expect the guys with the black suits literally we know it's doesn't North that would you come with us, please?
	Now, what they've done, of course, is that the students were very above board.
	They said, look, we just did an experiment to show how fallible this really is.
	And those students were just getting Cs.
	Exactly.
	So now they're being funded, by the way.
	In fact, Dr. Adlin and his group of students, and a few other folks, and biophysicists, not computer science guys, per se, but biophysicists, are being financed to actually invent the mass encryption scheme.
	But the whole point being that you are correct, that everything is in a state of flux, that this really is A domain where in one hand it's extremely robust, but on the other hand there is an Achilles heel and it can be in fact very fragile.
	But once again, this is why using the artificial life model as a mechanism for installing self-protection, a sense of awareness, a desire to maintain one's health, if you will, is exactly what's required to make this system work.
	But it's also exactly what's required for it to get out of hand.
	Well, and again, this loops back to the original statement at the beginning of the discussion, which was that it depends on what it is exposed to or trained to do.
	And I will freely admit that human history has had a rather sorry track record of somewhat mishandling, to put it politely, quite a few other areas of technology and science when it was sort of casually or carelessly spewn into the population in general.
	So, would this be another example of, if it goes awry, could it cause tremendous harm?
	Yes, it might.
	Yes.
	But on the other hand, I think it's, as I said earlier, a requirement that we have to evolve through, and I hope we will successfully negotiate an appropriate way of training and allowing this mechanism, if you will, to come to life.
	Now, you could imagine that it might ultimately allow for the survival of the human race, because it would make dispassionate choices that would allow that.
	Well, in the ultimate expression, and forgive me for paraphrasing, but what I think you're trying to get at is if it's in a situation of control where virtually all the major trading nations' economic systems, and therefore the dispensation of value, of wealth, of the control over even the political process, etc., were embedded in this fabric of functionality, yes, there could come a magic.
	In the Forbin Project, for instance.
	Well, you'd have to wonder who would decide are the useless eaters.
	I shudder to offer an opinion.
	I'm not sure I'm in a frame of mind at this moment to suggest a thing.
	But could there be, in a sense, a kind of a thin earth on a very large and complex scale as being its model by which it determines how to allocate resources and or how to manipulate resource distribution?
	Yes, I could see that.
	Absolutely.
	And if it's for the general health of the planetary population and the planetary biosphere capacity for supporting life, well, that's not exactly an untenable argument.
	No, it isn't.
	And so that brings us squarely back to the Forbin Project.
	Yes, it does.
	But in the Forbin Project, there the methodology of control was, we're going to initiate a launch or a detonation of a strategically placed nuclear device here and there.
	Now, could that implement it here?
	Well, that was a means to an end.
	Well, it was a means to an end.
	It was an enforcement of discipline, with the human being seen as one of these spoiled little brat children who didn't know what to do, so Foreman had to step in and kind of discipline them, give them a spanking of sorts.
	Now, would this near-future domain have a similar kind of profile in terms of a behavioral characteristic?
	Probably wouldn't resort to blowing anything up with nuclear devices, but I think it might, in a sense, use the same kind of Disciplinary tactics, but in a much more subtle way, i.e.
	control of economic situations and sort of maintaining a distribution of resources.
	Agriculture!
	Food!
	Agriculture, etc.
	You're right.
	Everything is interconnected.
	So in that context, yes, there could be a provincial kind of mechanism saying, for your own good, I am now going to implement policy X. And, this is what I was trying to look at a few months ago, right now I will tend to support this argument until I go to the grave.
	We're at a horizon line where, once again, knowledge velocity, volume and complexity is exceeding, in most cases, human capacity to render decisions in an ever more shorter time scale.
	Therefore, people are in a sense being trained to surrender their belief barrier, if you will, You know who you remind me of?
	The guy in Jurassic Park.
	as a matter of as an option but as a strategic requirement to remain
	functional and you know you know who you remind me of hmm the guy in Jurassic
	Park oh no which one I should ask the one who was talking about chaos theory
	just before all hell broke loose well in a sense I don't even disagree with that
	argument and perhaps a bit of chaos is what's required In fact, I use a term called manifold of chaos.
	All right, Charles, Charles, Charles.
	We're going to end it here, and I'll schedule a program with you.
	We obviously need to do a whole program on this, all right?
	That would be just fine.
	All right.
	I appreciate your getting up in the middle of the night and commenting on this.
	It's been fun, as always.
	Thank you so much.
	Thank you, Charles.
	Charles Osman, expert on nanotechnology.
	And the kind of thing they're, actually I was going to say getting ready to turn on, the kind of thing they just turned on.
	Artificial intelligence.
	What do you think?
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 22nd, 1997.
	Thanks for watching.
	I've got a black magic woman, got me so black I can't see.
	Her hair is hollow gold, her lips sweet surprise.
	Her hands are never cold, she's got better days.
	I should turn the music on, you won't have to think twice.
	She's pure as New York snow.
	She's got Betty Davis' eyes.
	If she needs you, she'll unheed you.
	I'll be back, I just don't believe you.
	She's a coach, yeah, and she knows just what it takes to make a program.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	The night featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 22, 1997.
	Well, I've got an interesting fax here from Clint in Bismarck, North Dakota.
	We'll get to it here in a second.
	No, we'll get to it now.
	Hi Art!
	I've called in a few times, even emailed you a couple of tidbits, but nothing like this.
	We recently installed a weather camera on the roof of the TV station that I work for.
	We named the camera Steve.
	Overnight, I was zooming in on a shot of the moon with Steve, when all of a sudden I witnessed an object, a bright glowing dot, traveling just above the moon in the night sky.
	I had a tape rolling at the time, and captured the object on videotape.
	I dismissed, and still do, the object as a man-made satellite, because I think its motion appears linear.
	The way the light reflects from the object, however, does not make sense.
	I've shown it to a couple of guys from our engineering department, and they both argue its apparent placement in the sky is much higher than a satellite.
	They maintain it is instead much closer to the moon than it is to Earth, based on the way its brightness is affected as it nears and passes the moon.
	Since I work overnights at a TV station, I have the capability to put the whole thing Just a few seconds, really.
	At normal and slow speed into a QuickTime or AVI file for you.
	If you would like them for inspection, please email me.
	Well, yes, of course.
	Uh, Clint, what I would advise you to do is to put it in an AVI file and send it to my webmaster.
	He is... His email address is Keith R.
	That's K, it's all lowercase stuff here, K-E-I-T-H, Keith R, as in radio, at primenet.com.
	In fact, everybody out there should send Keith R at primenet.com a message and say hi.
	He loves it when that happens.
	But you particularly should do that, Clint.
	you And sure, we'll put it up there for everybody to see.
	Now generally, satellites, polar satellites, can only be viewed about an hour before sunrise, something like that.
	They're low in orbit, 200-300 miles typically, and of course they see the sun before we do, and it reflects at that point, and you're able to see them.
	Try it, go out about an hour before sunrise, and Watch the north-south directions and clear across the top of the sky, and you will find any number, actually a large number of satellites, moving in a very linear fashion, traversing the sky, and they generally can be seen when they see the sun, and we don't.
	And that's about an hour before it comes up.
	If you would like the feeling of never being the same again, you're going to want to listen
	to Marnight.
	I have booked.
	I told you there would be some surprises coming this week.
	Tomorrow night, I held open.
	Because booked is Dr. John Alexander and Colonel Philip J. Corso, who wrote The Day After Roswell.
	And when I tell you that after listening to Colonel Corso, you will not be the same, I really mean it.
	You will believe him, because he is believable, and he will tell you things that will change the way you look at everything around you, including the technology that's racing ahead at the pace it is.
	I'm telling you, don't miss it tomorrow night.
	Colonel Corso's book, The Day After Roswell, I believe will debut at about number 12 on the bestseller list.
	I'll be here tomorrow night, along with Dr. Alexander.
	And then, to fill you in on what's coming for the Balance of the Week, Thursday night, Friday morning, Jim Keith will be here, who will be talking to you about the Men in Black.
	It's a serious book.
	In fact, it's a casebook on the Men in Black.
	What does that mean, a casebook?
	That means actual instances of appearances of, and documented presence of, the men in black.
	Should be very interesting.
	Friday night, Saturday morning, for at least a period of time, Richard C. Hoagland.
	That will be the 26th, and it will be the concluding day of his forecast of interesting events to occur between The 20th and the 26th.
	So, that's kind of what we're into for this week.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Art!
	Yes.
	How you doing?
	This is Brian, once again.
	Brian, extinguish your radio, please.
	I just turned it off.
	Thank you.
	It is off.
	Good, good, good.
	Yeah, once again, from the watchful skies of Phoenix, Ground Zero, as you may call it.
	Well, Mr. Hoagland's predictions, I believe, extend from the 20th When we lost contact with our Mars probe through the 26th, when he'll be on the air Friday night, Saturday morning.
	Yeah, yeah, that's about what I heard.
	Is it open lines right now?
	Yep, yep, yep.
	Outstanding.
	First of all, Art, I'd like to congratulate on your show and your book that you've written.
	I hope you don't get mad.
	I'm a musician here out in Phoenix and I did write a song called The Quickening.
	We're going to be out of the studio toward the end of this month.
	I'd like to send you, it's a four song CD demo tape type thing.
	Maybe you'll get a kick out of it.
	It's about The Quickening.
	It's the weirdest thing.
	I would love it.
	Yeah, I'll send it to you if you like it.
	Second thing, I don't know if you remember, but I also called a while back About the Chupacabra thing, and I was the guy that was the infantry soldier in Panama who basically smelt one at one time.
	I remember that, yes.
	Yeah.
	Well, I never got to really finish the story on that.
	Toward the end of that deal, me and my entire squad, What does a chupacabra smell like, by the way?
	Well, you know, I remember I was listening to your show, which was the weirdest thing, and he said it smelled like battery acid.
	Sort of.
	Well, it wasn't, to me, it wasn't like that.
	It was like, it was like the most pugnant, I hate to use the word, but urine and B.O.
	you've ever smelled in your entire life.
	Now, I've played football and been, you know, a wrestler in high school, you know, and I've been...
	I've smelt that stuff, but this... Like a locker room times ten, huh?
	This was the most pungent thing I've ever smelt in my entire life.
	You know, especially being, as they call it, a jungla in Panama.
	That's, I believe that's the Spanish, Panamanian word for it, anyway.
	Well, from what I've seen of the chupacabra, if it actually got that close to a person, it would be difficult to tell whose urine you were smelling.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, especially being in the army.
	But no.
	Seriously, to top this off, when we encountered this, of course we had the RTO guy radio it in to the Italian headquarters or whatever you may be.
	We were questioned, after we came back out of the jungle, by people that I've never seen before, which I was told afterwards, which were people called GS-12s?
	Yeah.
	And these are plain close people.
	They questioned us.
	They'd be like the men in black, sort of.
	Well, you're damn, damn close to it.
	But questioned us about what we saw, what we heard, how many we heard.
	And we're told, ordered, not to speak of it after that at all.
	Well, you know, me being a private at the time, I'm like, sir, you got it.
	There's no way.
	Has it occurred to you that you're in front of a national radio audience?
	Oh, yeah, I know.
	I know.
	I have no, I have absolutely no regrets saying this.
	And I hope I get it out because I was there.
	I smelt it.
	I felt it.
	And nothing, like I said before, it did.
	It moved so quickly through dense, intense jungle.
	I mean, nothing can move that fast ever.
	No, there's no way.
	No human being can move that fast through that stuff.
	I understand.
	Thank you very much for the call.
	I have been down through Panama, through the Panama Canal Zone, and the rainforest is so thick that it is so easy to imagine that all kinds of forms of life Could exist in there that we have not yet begun to encounter, and that we don't have the slightest hint about, and could the Chupacabra be one of those?
	Of course it could.
	West of the Rockies, you are on the air.
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	This is Marcus here, pistol-packing pigeon in Portland.
	Welcome.
	Howdy.
	Let me throw my two cents worth in here.
	As somebody who's got over 17 years in computer operations as an end-user, I have a rather jaundiced view about the omnipotence of computers to begin with.
	Take it from personal experience, if a computer or a computer-like device ever achieved sentience, ever had what I think has been referred to as the order of connectivity, duplicating that in the human brain at such a complexity that sentience were possible, you'd have the equivalent of a very sickly child on your hand.
	Remember that computers can go offline at the drop of the proverbial hat.
	Computer viruses, power surges.
	In one case, I accidentally brushed a computer mag tape case against a carpet and put it next to a console.
	A static spark gap jumped to the mainframe and shorted out the whole system for 12 hours.
	Let me tell you a little more about this computer they just turned on, or awakened, their word.
	It says the prototype used two modules able to operate at a speed of 12.8 billion cells per second.
	Eventually, the architecture will support 10,000 modules, updating all 1 million neurons in real time.
	Right.
	Well, the answer to that is simply have somebody standing by the plug in the wall, ready to yank the... Well, we covered that with Charles.
	You see, there wouldn't be a plug.
	Right now, there is no plug.
	If you wanted to turn off the Internet, right now, let's say you said, oh my God, something's loose on the Internet, and you wanted to stop it, you couldn't.
	There is no plug to pull.
	There are too many cross-neural connections already in the Internet.
	Exactly, and for that reason, the Internet behavior is more like a collection of schizophrenics or multiple personalities than it is one unified cohesive entity.
	Well, Charles' theory is that shortly, probably not very long from now, we will see the birth
	of sentient, uh, asentient being or beings on the internet.
	It's going to come soon.
	The only problem with any system of logic and computers are inevitably logic because
	their entire structure is based on binary on-off logic.
	They can't escape from that limiting factor.
	Any system of logic ultimately depends upon certain postulates, even the postulate that what they see is recognizable fact and can be modeled therefrom into their circuitry to create an algorithm or generalization that reflects the reality they're encountering.
	At some particular point, the machine either will or will not develop a sense of self, self-awareness, ego, call it what you will.
	If the ego is going to survive, what are the parameters necessary for survival?
	Well, if it's operating off the level of a two-year-old, you know, the terrible twos, gimme, gimme, gimme, I want, I want, it's going to hit a limiting factor and get slacked on the butt fairly quickly.
	And it's going to learn that this is going to be, in the long run, not enlightened self-interest.
	Now, if it develops an adult, mature, enlightened self-interest and can extend the identity of self to the identity of others recognizably interacting with self, Then it's got a richer, better game to play.
	Well, one little problem.
	A lot of children that have parents and at the terrible twos do something terrible and get their butt spanked for it.
	Yes, they retreat for a period of time, but ultimately they grow up and sometimes they turn out to be serial killers.
	Right.
	Well, relatively few problems that we've got in society today, I think, are the result of excessive discipline.
	I think self-indulgence and lack of parental guidance is more of a problem.
	I've been personally rather horrified to find whole generations of high school graduates are being graduated now who can't do basic arithmetic without a pocket calculator.
	Nor can they spell.
	Exactly.
	And this kind of lack of the basic survival tools of literacy and numeracy necessary for the 21st century is not their fault necessarily.
	All right, fine.
	Let's go along with that.
	You have described accurately, I think, the healthy percentage of the population.
	If we get a machine capable of improving itself, looking at the environment, And making decisions that allow it to adapt to the environment.
	It's very likely that it's going to take a look around at the environment and come to the conclusion that it will no longer support This number of, as I said earlier, useless eaters.
	Right.
	It depends on if the machine is fully aware of what the environment, as defined, incorporates and its dependence upon the environment.
	For example, is it going to have the capacity to produce its own spare parts?
	Oh, absolutely!
	I see.
	Well, then I would say that any intelligence that is so programmed by human beings better be restricted in its access to raw materials and manufacturing facilities.
	Because the darn thing will wear out after a while.
	Uh-huh.
	I appreciate your call.
	Well, that depends.
	There are virtually endless supplies available for it.
	And over the Internet, as it continues to double in complexity every four months or so, whatever it is right now, It would have access to virtually unlimited information, unlimited supplies, the ability to grow as the environment demanded that it do so, and of course, the basic tenet to protect itself.
	And I leave the rest to your imagination.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Yes, good morning.
	This is your second call from Warrensboro this morning.
	Well, excellent.
	What's the odds of that?
	Um, pretty high.
	Actually, pretty high.
	Have you been following the Pat Finder photos on the internet pretty close?
	I would not say... I did at first.
	I followed them very closely.
	And then I began to sort of... I guess the interest waned a little bit because Well, they're rocks.
	Well, yeah, that's what I'm getting at.
	The only thing you've seen of the horizon... Okay, what are those two mountains that they call Twin Peaks?
	That's the only thing you see of the horizon.
	Yep.
	You know, I've got a question for you.
	And I want you to think about this.
	Getting video from there to here is quite a complex job.
	Getting audio from there to here is almost nothing bandwidth-wise.
	Why didn't they put a microphone on that little rover?
	No telling what you might hear.
	That's my point.
	In other words, there is enough atmosphere there, apparently, to conduct sound.
	So, wouldn't it be really cool to be able to listen?
	Yeah, but I keep waiting for that monster pan that they keep talking about.
	Well, they've done pants.
	But it's not of resin, it's of rocks.
	Of rocks, yeah.
	Right.
	Well, so that's the answer to your question.
	I haven't, uh... You know, I see it on CNN every day, and... Yeah.
	You can go to the website and see it, but it's rocks.
	Well, tell them to show us the rest of it.
	So you think they're holding back?
	Uh, who knows?
	Uh, I have a feeling that even if they saw a great big green foot, They would say it's a trick of light and shadow.
	Well, yeah, that's what they always say.
	Even if the very next photograph showed our little crawling machine mushed into the ground.
	NASA really should think of this.
	If they show a picture of a pyramid, my God, all the funding they would get.
	You mean, you're not suggesting that NASA should slip one in on us, are you?
	No, no, I wouldn't do that.
	Do you think they would?
	I mean, if too many people start saying what I'm saying right now, why, folks, it's nothing but a bunch of red damn rocks.
	We got them here on Earth.
	As a matter of fact, here near Las Vegas, we got an area called Red Rock.
	I tell you right now, I could take a machine out there and you would not be able to tell the difference between what you're seeing now and Red Rock.
	No way.
	It's called Red Rock, and that's all it is.
	You won't still see rocks, but if they show up a picture of them, you know, something interesting.
	Well, remember, at one time, sir, Mars was covered with water.
	Virtually a water world.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM, from July 22nd, 1997.
	July 22, 1997.
	It stands beside the river where you were to meet me.
	On the ground your glove I found with a note addressed to me
	It read, dear love, I've done you wrong, now I must set you free
	No longer can I live with this hurt and this sin I just couldn't tell you...
	I just couldn't tell you...
	Feeling better now that we're through Feeling better cause I'm over you
	I learned my lesson and left the scars Now I see, are you really over me?
	You're no good, you're no good, you're no good Baby, you're no good
	I'm gonna say it again You're no good, you're no good, you're no good
	And open, baby, and open I broke the heart
	Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell, Somewhere in Time Tonight's program originally aired July 22, 1997
	Hi Art Well, the thing that just awakened
	Already has the potential of sight I mean, think of all the quick cams and other video links
	Like the studio cam that watches you all night That see the world and its comings and goings
	What about all those cameras mounted in cities?
	What about all those cameras on highways and byways in America, huh?
	You might have read the book by David Gerrold called When Harley Was One.
	Harley was an advanced computer that constructed his own replacement One that would be as far beyond him as he was beyond a pocket calculator.
	Harley called the creation a graphical ominous device.
	G.O.D.
	I wonder, will it need worship?
	Chris.
	I have to highly recommend the family radio service radios that you've been touting.
	We just advertised those tonight from Sea Crane.
	He said, one correction, they don't operate the 450 megahertz band, but rather 462 to 468.
	Well, my reference to 450 was a general one.
	When I say 450, I mean that range, but you are technically correct, it is in there.
	Properties of handheld radios at that frequency are rather unique in that they penetrate where other VHF radios just don't penetrate.
	And because it is a shorter bandwidth frequency, it will penetrate, for example, inside an automobile very readily.
	And in places where normal VHF radios and CB, of course, gets left far in the dust.
	Don't go.
	These family radios do go.
	They're quite remarkable, actually.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you are on the air.
	Hi.
	Yeah, good morning.
	They're reporting out of Syracuse University that a professor came up with what they call a purple goo, and it's actually a gelatin protein cube made out of swamp-living bacteria.
	Well, I'm not surprised.
	That was the way they had to move, eventually, a sort of a combination of, or an interface between a machine and a biological entity.
	Well, I'm not surprised. That was the way they had to move, eventually, a sort of a combination of, or an interface
	between a machine and a biological entity. You're a goo.
	right That's what they're speaking of right now on local New York radio stations.
	I'm not surprised.
	I'm simply not surprised.
	I just wanted to give you that update.
	Thanks for the program.
	I appreciate the call.
	Thank you.
	Sure.
	That figures to be breaking news tonight, huh?
	Goo.
	Wonder how they'll contain it in a personal home computer.
	You'll have a little goo module.
	Really will be that.
	A little organic module.
	That will establish neural connections and do storage at rates that will stagger you.
	And I believe this is the beginning.
	We are on the threshold of a sentient being.
	An entity.
	I don't know if you'd say being.
	An entity.
	Something that is.
	And I think that defines it.
	Self-awareness.
	The ability to learn, to adapt.
	I don't know.
	Getting close to it, folks.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Good morning, sir.
	It's an honor to speak to you again.
	And to you.
	Where are you?
	I'm in Minneapolis.
	My name's Carl.
	Okay, Carl.
	Also known as the Silver Charm Guy.
	Yes, sir.
	I have another prediction for you, but first I'd like to tell you I'm kind of disappointed in the Canadian people for burning the flag like they did the other day on TV.
	Well, I've seen our flag go up an awful lot of times.
	I know, but the Canadians, you know, we've saved them a few times.
	Well, you know, you get in these disputes and people get angry.
	It's an expression.
	It's not one that we're happy with, but I suspect there have been Americans burn the Canadian flag as well.
	Yeah, well, they come down here and they make a lot of money down here and they take it back up there.
	You know, whatever.
	I'm kind of upset about it.
	I have a prediction about the Marconi Awards.
	I predict that you will win and I hope that you will make a statement on that platform that will rock the world.
	Well, first of all, I thank you for your prediction.
	I would say it's anything but a sure thing.
	There's some pretty hefty competition in there.
	Howard Stern's in there, Dr. Laura Schlesinger is in there, and there's a couple others.
	Yeah, the sports babe?
	Yeah, the sports babe and then one other.
	Do you know who that is?
	It's another sports person of some sort.
	But I'm sorry offhand. I don't remember the name so you know that I mean that's some pretty heavy
	Competition even if you take the named people I don't think they're gonna give it to Howard though cuz he's he's a jerk
	and Laura dr. Laura she is
	I've listened to her show She's on in the morning here after you're off.
	I hear she has an attitude.
	She's a man basher.
	see what you have an attitude you know it was demand basher
	uh... look uh... but see this is your perception
	and all the people that the people voting on this award or the uh... radio
	station program directors and managers Well, what they really are, probably most of them are gay people, so let all the night people fill the ballot box there.
	That isn't the way it works, I'm telling you.
	And you didn't help out my case there at all, you just said that they're probably all gay people.
	Why'd you say that?
	Really trying to help me out there, huh?
	Just insulted all of the management of all of the stations that I'm on.
	That was brilliant.
	Thank you.
	Stop payment on your check now.
	Look, I'm gonna say this again.
	And I really mean it.
	I am satisfied with what has occurred thus far.
	I have been nominated.
	I have received a certificate of that nomination as one of the top five syndicated programs in the nation.
	And that certificate is up on the website.
	We put it up.
	It arrived actually in the mail yesterday and so I scanned it and put it up there so you can see it.
	And I'm very, very honored.
	And if it doesn't ever go beyond that, that's just fine.
	It's a great honor to have received that.
	Now, should I win the first meaningful part of this conversation?
	I would have some things to say to the industry, as a matter of fact.
	And if I had an opportunity to address the National Association of Broadcasters down in New Orleans.
	It's going to be fun to go to New Orleans anyway, no matter what happens.
	I would have quite a bit to say about the direction of talk radio.
	And I'm not suggesting that anybody follow in my footsteps.
	I've gone off in my own direction.
	For better or worse, I have done that.
	What I am suggesting, though, is variety.
	And that A lot of the people right now that are, think they've got to follow in the cookie cutter formula of talk radio.
	And that is the majority of the hosts.
	Reconsider their direction.
	And reconsider the state of our industry.
	And if we don't soon do that, talk radio will atrophy.
	It cannot be any one single thing, in my opinion.
	Rush developed, and is certainly a gigantic, a huge talent, and developed the political side of talk radio.
	And immediately everybody else out there decided they had to follow in his rather formidable footsteps.
	And that was a mistake.
	And in my view, the industry has got to begin to diversify.
	There is so much more to life that can be talked about than politics.
	And that, again, that doesn't mean that I'm suggesting anybody follow in my footsteps, but rather establish your own track.
	And then talk radio, as it diversifies, will grow and strengthen.
	But I'll tell you a little secret.
	This Spring Book, what's called the Spring Book, was pretty much generally, across the board, a bad book for talk radio.
	Now, I did particularly well, and I'm very thankful for that.
	The ratings continue to skyrocket, and I'm very thankful for that.
	But this Spring Book was not a particularly good book for talk radio.
	Now, what that means Is that in general, there's been some tune-out of talk radio across the nation.
	Just as sort of a general trend.
	A talk radio remains, as far as I know, the number one format.
	But it's beginning to erode a little bit, and the reason that's occurring is that there is not enough diversification.
	There are so many things in life that can be talked about.
	It's one of the reasons Dr. Laura is doing well, Rush.
	is doing well Howard is doing well I'm doing well and others who have moved away from what everybody thought it had to be are doing well if you look at the the list of say the top 10 so I would encourage the industry to continue this diversification and for people to look for new ideas and new things and new avenues and new niches and when they're found they're gonna work and if nobody gets out there and looks Talk radio is going to atrophy and be in trouble.
	So that's probably the essence of what I would say to my colleagues.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Well, Mr. Bell.
	Yes, sir.
	You're still number one in Tullahoma, Tennessee.
	Thank you.
	Yes, sir.
	It's Roger.
	I just thought I'd call in and tell you you sounded good.
	Well, thank you very much.
	That's very kind of you.
	What the caller, you thought he said gay.
	I could have sworn he said gay people though, sir.
	You know what?
	Maybe you're... Oh gosh, I hope you're right.
	I could have sworn he said gay.
	I think you said day.
	Day people.
	Maybe... You know what?
	That makes sense.
	I apologize to that caller.
	I bet you're right.
	Day people.
	And here... Most of them are day people though.
	Well, it's true.
	It's true.
	And it's going to take, on the part of those who are voting, again, uh... the no doubt primarily heterosexual program directors and managers it's going to take uh... some insight uh... on their part uh... to look at what's occurring at night rather than during the day because during the day is very important for radio station you know morning drive afternoon drive it's called uh... very important and so they would probably look at that first we have just begun to sort of lighten up the night
	Uh, and prove again in the industry that the nighttime is viable in radio.
	Uh, yes sir, it is.
	Uh, well like, you know, there are a lot of United Parcel Service that listen to you part-time, full-time, management.
	If only UPS did the voting.
	Oh, man.
	Now, uh, I think you're right, though.
	I think I owe that man an apology.
	I think you're absolutely right.
	He said gay people.
	I could have sworn he said gay people.
	And I thought, oh, great.
	There's some real help.
	No, but I believe that the, how do you say, the radio management know that there's a pretty good listening crowd out there at night now.
	Oh, yes.
	Oh, yes.
	Over the last eight years, I've seen traffic quadruple out there on the road and everything.
	You know that they're going to have their radios on.
	They're going to be listening.
	And talk radio, for me, I've been listening to you, I guess, a little over two years now.
	And you have a very good program.
	Very diverse.
	Well, it has skyrocketed.
	And I think that the diversity is one of the reasons.
	Yes, sir.
	And I'm not going to go back through the whole speech I just did, but I really think the whole industry's got to take a look at itself and grow up a little bit.
	Mm-hmm.
	Because you ask yourself, and I ask people this frequently, how many out of every day at home, are you married?
	Yes, sir, I am.
	Okay.
	Children?
	Three.
	Three.
	All right.
	Three children and a wife.
	How many hours every day do you spend talking about politics with your three children and wife?
	None.
	None hours?
	No.
	Well, that's what most people say.
	That's what most people say.
	And that's the real truth.
	And so then why would something that is supposed to reflect life and the concerns of life, like talk radio, automatically spend hours every day, which most talk show hosts are committed to, reading Senate bills over the air, talking about politics, even when it's not worth talking about.
	You're right.
	So we've got to change.
	We've got to reflect life and interest.
	And that's how we'll grow.
	That's my little speech.
	Well, it's like this.
	You know, driver training schools and such as that right there, they teach how to drive.
	But they don't teach on the rules of the road.
	That's true.
	And it goes with school and everything else.
	Reading, writing, and arithmetic.
	But they also need to teach common sense.
	Uh, you know, about, you know, life itself.
	Well, there's a lot to talk about in life.
	You're sure right about that.
	Thank you.
	And I think you're also right about that caller.
	Boy, do I apologize.
	I could have sworn he said gay.
	But now, as I reflect on it, I'm sure he didn't.
	Thank goodness.
	Yeah, there's a lot to life.
	There's a lot to life that's very interesting to people.
	That deserves to be discussed.
	Talk radio should be reflecting life, not some little microcosm of it that occurs mainly back in Washington without relevance to our daily lives.
	That's my view.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hi, how are ya?
	I am reasonably alright.
	And this is Art.
	It is.
	And how the heck are ya?
	You already asked.
	I'm calling from Edmonton, Canada.
	Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
	I'm amazed I got through.
	Anyway, I just heard the comments from the one fellow that kind of brought Canada into the picture, and we're not like that.
	Just, and I don't understand the homosexual bit either, so I think he should just, you know, I don't know what to say.
	Well, did he say gay or day?
	Ah, he said gay.
	Now I'm not sure.
	I almost have to go back and listen to the tape.
	I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and say day.
	Yeah, no kidding.
	Anyway, Art, one thing I wanted to talk to you about.
	I'm actually calling up here from Canada with the Phoenix Sightings.
	We had a little thing going on up in Canada.
	You might want to try to get a hold of one of the TV stations here.
	A month ago we had, not a series, but we had two lights that were reported flying in actually quite a weird direction.
	I'd never seen them myself, but they flew over northern Alberta, passed directly over the city of Edmonton.
	Really?
	And they proceeded to go southerly towards another city to the south, LaDuke, Alberta, and it apparently was witnessed by quite a few people, and somebody had actually home videotaped it, and I believe they have it.
	And you may want to try to get your hands on that.
	I've been trying to get a hold of you for a while and tell you about that.
	Of course I want to get my hands on it.
	And I don't know if I can give you a number off the air.
	As a matter of fact, this is the one instance where you probably can do that because the program is ending.
	How about if I put you on hold?
	Thanks.
	Alright, I'm putting you on hold.
	Holding in Canada.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Hi, Art.
	This is Steve out here in South Carolina.
	Steve in South Carolina.
	Yeah, listening to 1210, fading in and out.
	Alright.
	Do you have a list of the top ten radio shows you were talking about earlier?
	As a matter of fact, I believe that list was up on the website for a while.
	Okay, I didn't know if you had one you could read right before you went off there.
	I'd be interested to hear who the top ten are.
	And he said day, as in day and night.
	Oh, good.
	Because he was talking about you being a night show and most of the other shows that are probably in the top five there are day shows.
	I'm sure he said day.
	All right.
	Well, we love you out here and you do a great job.
	Well, thank you very much.
	I listen to you every night coming home from work.
	I work for Amtrak.
	I listen to you all the time.
	I've talked to you a couple other times, but we really enjoy your show.
	Well, I love trains, by the way.
	Yeah, you ought to come out here on the East Coast and take a ride.
	Oh, I really love trains.
	I once had an opportunity.
	I rode all the way from Vancouver in British Columbia.
	That's Canadian Rail.
	It's supposed to be fantastic.
	Well, you'd be another celebrity I've met if you'd come out here.
	They had Scotty Moore, Elvis Presley's old guitar player on the train the other day.
	You know, people like that.
	You meet them out here and they're just about average people.
	Well, you know, that's all I am is just an average person.
	Yeah, you know, the first time I heard you, I had a picture in my mind.
	The very first time I heard you, I thought, here's a little old guy.
	He's probably 65 years old.
	You know, you get a picture of somebody in your mind on the radio.
	Yes.
	I saw your picture and he looked like probably a next door neighbor.
	Exactly right.
	That's really all I am.
	I don't take well to this celebrity status thing.
	I don't even really... I don't like it.
	You want to know the truth?
	I really don't like it.
	Well, I don't see how you... It would be sort of a... I mean, let me put it this way.
	I love doing the program.
	I love it, I love it, I love it.
	But I don't love the attention.
	Yeah, yeah, I mean, at least your radio, so most people may not recognize you.
	You can go out and shop, do things, but... It was that way, but I've done TV and I've been in so many newspapers and stuff now that it's getting a little harder.
	Listen... Getting too big for you bitches, huh?
	Well, I'm doing that anyway.
	Listen, the program is over, so you get the honors.
	Ah, good night.

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