John Kirby, a Roswell investigator since 1993, critiques the Air Force’s 1997 "Case Closed" report, dismissing its claims of misremembered events and debunking the 1956 KC-97 or 1959 balloon theories. He highlights inconsistencies in witness accounts—like Walter Haut’s 1947 press release and Frank Kaufman’s 1947 crash site cleanup—where human-like beings were described, contrasting with later "Greys" lore. Jesse Marcel Jr. confirms his father’s debris was unlike Mogul balloon remnants, while Major Edwin Easley and Colonel Thomas DuBoe’s sworn secrecy underscores official cover-ups. Kirby remains skeptical without physical proof but notes the episode’s broader implication: Roswell’s enduring mystery hinges on suppressed military evidence and media bias, leaving key questions unanswered despite decades of scrutiny. [Automatically generated summary]
From the high desert in the great American Southwest, we bid you all good evening and or good morning as the case may be across all these many, many time zones stretching from the Hawaiian and Tahitian Islands in the west, eastward across my overcountry, that's all of us, to the Caribbean, the exotic U.S. Virgin Islands, south into South America, North, well to the Pole, and worldwide on the internet.
This is Coast Coast AM and I'm Martell and tonight should be very historic indeed.
You will hear things you have not heard before.
In the first couple of hours of the program from Portland, it's John Kirby.
And I'm gonna let John tell you all about himself and what he's got for you.
Not in terms of stories so much this morning.
But in terms of actual audio clips.
From some of the people whose names, if you don't know now, you certainly will know before the next couple of hours go away.
I don't know if we'll call this one Roswell Case Closed or not.
We'll let you decide for yourself.
So all of that coming up in the first couple of hours, then open minds and anything you want to do.
Last night certainly was wild enough.
So who knows what's coming up tonight?
unidentified
*sad music*
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Now we take you back to the night of July 10th, 1997, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
You have, I know, worked with Kevin Randall on several books or are mentioned in a couple of his, Conspiracy of Silence, The Randall Report.
And I don't know a lot more about your background.
So if you wouldn't mind, give us sort of a brief sketch of who you are.
unidentified
Sure.
I got a bachelor's and master's in electrical engineering from a school in the Northeast, and I'm currently working in high technology as a manager of a local major high-tech firm.
And I first got interested in UFOs by doing investigations into abductions back in 1991.
But in 1993, I had the good fortune of meeting Kevin Randall and Don Schmidt, who are some of the leading authors in the Roswell case.
And so with Kevin and Don and other people associated with him, for example, Kent Jeffrey, who's been on television recently, Paul David, the executive producer of the Roswell movie, and even folks like Philip Klass, I've had a chance to participate in the investigations and have been down to Roswell several times.
One of the times we were down there was a time when they shot the 48 Hours special segment about Roswell.
And I've been down to Area 51 a couple of times.
I worked on the television crew for the Larry King special from Area 51 about three years ago.
That was the one where Larry had a desk out in the middle of the desert there.
unidentified
That was one of the most beautiful shows to work on.
What they did was we brought out a satellite truck and a TV production truck and parked it right by the famous Ailey Inn, which is outside the gates of Area 51.
Listen, since you've been so intimately involved in all that has gone on, I would like to get your comments before we begin here.
On the Air Force's presentation of Roswell case closed, you saw, I'm sure, I hope you saw, the now famous or infamous news conference the Air Force did.
Oh, yeah.
What was your take?
unidentified
Well, I look at the Air Force report, and I try and keep an open mind about how people interpret all the data, but I think it is somewhat of a stretch to say that people are confusing memories over the space of 10 years.
When you look at it, they're claiming that it was a 1956 KC-97 airplane crash in which 11 Air Force members died, and also a 1959 manned balloon mishap, and they had pilots, and also were dropping test dummies.
You know, I think I can remember exactly.
As a matter of fact, I do remember exactly where I was and what I was doing when I heard that President Kennedy died.
Because these big events, you remember exactly where you were.
I remember sitting in the sixth grade and the teacher coming in and saying, the president just died.
And I can tell you exactly the environment.
And there's no question about where I was and what happened.
Anyway, your take is that, I guess, just like mine, I felt sorry for the Colonel who had to come out there.
unidentified
Absolutely.
And, you know, I've talked several times with Lieutenant now, Captain McCandrew, back in the time that he was preparing the Air Force report about three years ago.
He really is convinced that this thing did not happen.
And I would suspect that he's doing it out of the highest motivations, and he really believes that the event is fictitious.
Now, I personally, I'd say the jury is still out, although there's a preponderance of the evidence that the event really did happen, and it could have been very exotic.
But those people are convinced, and they don't necessarily want to look at the data, which is unfortunate.
For example, they have not interviewed a lot of the first-hand witnesses.
Which is some of what we are going to get to tonight that they did not get to.
One more thing for you to comment on, and that is, of course, the big confab that just went on celebrating the 50th anniversary of Roswell at Roswell.
The network coverage of it primarily seemed to be of people in tin hats, the museum, that sort of thing, people milling Around the crowds, but none of the substance really covered.
How did you see it?
unidentified
I would agree with that totally.
I wasn't down there that week.
I had a personal commitment, but I was there the week before to get a chance to talk to some of the witnesses.
But I did see Kevin Randall and Ken Checkery on Nightline.
Now, I've always had a lot of respect for Ted Koppel.
I always thought that he would play a story very straight, but the beginning of the story was introduced as a Roswell myth.
He introduced Kevin Randall as a true believer, and I thought that was not necessarily in keeping with the dignity of Nightline, which I highly respect.
Most times, Nightline has been one of the better broadcasts to watch with regard to breaking news.
But that's the way the media is.
I've learned that about these sorts of things.
Anyway, they could have called it the Roswell controversy, and it would have been a fair show.
But the Roswell myth.
unidentified
Well, you know, the only time we'll know the Roswell event really happened and the craft was extraterrestrial is when you find a piece of debris that's undoubtedly not from Earth, and you can trace the pedigree back to the Roswell case, and you can, that's one way to say, I've got a piece of debris that can be actually verified.
Well, now, at Roswell, I don't know whether you're aware of it, but there was a presentation by Paul Davids and company with regard to a piece of claimed record from Roswell, and they claim to have reports showing, and by the way, there's a lot of confusion, these are not what are affectionately known as Arts Parts, you know, the stuff I have.
But they claim to have documentation indicating that this piece definitely was not of terrestrial origin.
Are you familiar with that?
unidentified
Yes, I am.
In fact, I thought that was an excellent test.
Back when you first found Arts Parts, you and I talked on the telephone, and I did a follow-on conversation with Linda Howe, and we talked about ways that it could be identified as being exotic.
And one of the ways is to look at the number of isotope ratio inside the substance.
That indicates there's certain isotope that's usually found in the U.S. in certain percentages, I'm sorry, and in the world in certain percentages.
But if you find vastly different percentages in the isotopic ratios in the substance, you can conclude perhaps that it isn't from here.
So would I. And maybe the next time we go to Sidonia, or actually there's another probe on the way now that will maybe, they say, image Sidonia with high-resolution cameras.
You've got some interesting material for us this night, and so why don't we get into it?
unidentified
Okay.
Let me just give you a quick rundown of what we're going to talk about.
It's very interesting to listen to the researchers talk about Roswell, but I think it's even more interesting to listen to the first-hand witnesses that actually handled debris were actual participants.
And the one fortunate thing, since I've had a chance to investigate people at Roswell or talk to people at Roswell, I've gotten to know pretty much most of the major participants as friends.
And what I thought I would do is last week when people were thinking about it, I called several people, and I'll tell you who those people were, and said, would you mind giving me your memoirs and answer some questions?
They said, fine.
Then I thought maybe you might like these two, and they gave me permission to play these on the air.
Now, Frank was in a newspaper, U.S. News and World Report today, and I'll comment about that later on.
But Frank claims to be one of the people that was sent to the impact site to clean up the bodies and the debris.
And we'll get some excerpts from him.
Also, Jesse Marcel Jr.
Now, he is the son of a person named Jesse Marcel Sr., a major.
Now, Marcel was the first person to go to the Brazzle Ranch to look at the debris.
And he brought the debris home and showed it to his son.
And his son, still alive and doing real well, he's a doctor in Montana.
And he's going to talk on tape exactly what he saw and what he thinks about the possibility.
That's a mogul balloon or some other mundane explanation.
Other thing I've got is a very rare tape that I don't think has ever been aired before, except I aired it on your show about two years ago.
It's a conversation that Jesse Sr. had with Jesse Jr. when he went back for the first time to Roswell and talked about the experience.
Jesse Jr. happened to find that tape in an old box of debris and he didn't know why his father recorded it.
His father recorded it and put it in a box hoping that Jesse would find it.
So we're going to hear about that.
Finally, Colonel Thomas DeBose, who was the chief of staff of the 8th Air Force, he had a conversation with Kevin Randall and he's going to talk about specifically that this balloon story was a cover story to keep the press off General Rainy's back.
That's on tape.
And finally, a person named Major Edwin Easley.
He was the Provost Marshal for the 509th Bomb Group.
And he's going to be on tape saying that I can't talk about it.
And I remember vaguely the conversation between Jesse Marcel Jr., and I've had him on the air as an interview, and Sr., but that's a very historic, unusual piece of tape.
unidentified
Yeah, you were kind enough, when I did get a hold of the tape, you were kind enough to put me on the air, and we played that one night.
I think a lot of people aren't that familiar with the Roswell case, and so I just pulled together some of the data today, and I'll try and give like a two-minute history of Roswell.
The first big thing that happened was in June 26th of 1947, people probably remember the name flying saucer.
Well, the flying saucer term was first coined by a person named Ken Arnold, who was a pilot, who happened to be flying near a Mount Rainier up here in the northwest near Portland.
He saw objects in the sky that were skipping along the air like saucers skipping along water.
They weren't shaped like saucers, but they skipped like saucers.
And the news media picked that up.
And so between June 26th of 47 and July 7th of 47, I would urge people interested to go look at the library because it's unbelievable what the news stories were at that particular time.
If you look, almost every other day, there's major headlines announcing that airliners had seen flying discs.
For example, July 5th here in the Portland, Oregonian.
With all of the newspaper headlines, the radio reports, everything occurring in 1947, how could the Air Force, I've got to ask again and again, have referred to the beginning of 1953 to account for something that obviously, when we have the proof, occurred in 1947.
No matter what you believe occurred in 1947, they used the beginning of the experiments in 1953 to account for it.
It's just ridiculous.
unidentified
Yeah, it's very odd.
I think their claim is back in 1947 that there was a crash of a mogul balloon on the Brazil Ranch.
Yes.
And they still target that date as being in 1947.
The trouble is people were reporting bodies, and so what they did was they looked over the history to see whether they can record anything having to do with body recovery.
Now there has been the big Roswell blowout at the 50-year point.
Where do you think things go from here with regard to the investigation?
Does it all quiet down for another 50 years or what?
unidentified
I don't think so.
And I can't give you a lot of details, but there are still witnesses who have not come forward publicly.
One who I've been working with for the last two years.
Oh.
He seems to have remarkable connections.
In fact, he told me two years ago that the Air Force was going to talk about a strange foreign aircraft, he called it, as part of the explanation for Roswell, which turned out to be potentially these Japanese balloon experiments.
And that turned out to be correct.
And I don't know how he knew that two years in advance, but he apparently has good contacts in the government.
And he tells me that records are still available, but the trick is finding them.
So a lot of us are really preoccupied with trying to find those, but it's very, very difficult to chase down records.
But the story that he tells in terms of how the craft was propelled and the consistency by which he tells the story, and he specifically says, I don't know the answer to this when we get outside that area that he said he's familiar with, makes him somewhat of a credible witness.
And so it's possible that was going on down there, but it's certainly not a fact.
Did you hear the interview we did with Colonel Corso on Sunday's Dreamland?
I did.
I thought that was very compelling material.
And in the middle of that interview, he said the flying saucers, the discs, are driven by, in-effect, capacitors.
Really a fascinating interview.
Anyway, listen, hold on, John.
We'll be back after the bottom-of-the-hour break.
unidentified
You're listening to Arc Bell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 1997.
On the seven oceans, finally love another day.
Early every time, you'll see the space inside.
Watching it for motion as you turn around today.
Stay my breath away.
That's not me, I can't wait *P続ed* Last man sing To the
refugee That day is falling in love with me You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in Time, tonight featuring a replay of First Day Post DM from July 10th, 1997.
Do you have a song that just keeps running around in your head?
Songs that you've got to play again and again until your ears bleed.
Until you're satisfied.
This is one of them for me.
This particular reggae version of this had a hard time finding it, too, by the way.
Anyway, good morning and welcome to the program.
My guest is John Kirby, and you're about to hear things that you have never heard before.
It'll probably be the last program that we do in sort of closing off the Roswell business for a while.
But brace yourself.
unidentified
you're going to do some pretty interesting information Streamlink, the audio subscription service of Coast to Coast AM, has a new name, Coast Insider.
You'll still get all the same great features for the same low price, just 15 cents a day when you sign up for one year.
The package includes Podcasting, which offers the convenience of having shows downloaded automatically to your computer or MP3 player, and the iPhone app with live and on-demand programs.
You'll also get our amazing download library of three full years of shows.
Just think, as a new subscriber, over 1,000 shows will be available for you to collect, enjoy, and listen to at your leisure.
Plus, you'll get streamed and on-demand broadcasts of Art Bell, Somewhere in Time shows, and two weekly classics.
And as a member, you'll have access to our monthly live chat sessions with George Norrie and special guests.
If you're a fan of Coast, you won't want to be without Coast Insider.
Visit CoastToCoastAM.com to sign up today.
Here's what you missed on Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
There are some who always wonder why, if there are EPs out there, they don't come and bail us out.
Why haven't they fixed the oil spill?
Why haven't they taken care of famine and wars?
Why don't they do that?
You know, I think ultimately when this comes out, it'll change everything on the planet.
Certainly, if they intervene to just kind of like overtly solve our problems, they understand that that would actually hinder our evolution.
Now we take you back to the night of July 10th, 1997, on Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
Art Bell Somewhere in Time That's John Kirby in Portland.
John?
Hello, Art.
Okay, why don't we begin on what you've got?
unidentified
Okay, well, let me take you back to Tuesday, July 8th, 1947.
And I've got a copy of a newspaper, the Roswell Daily Record, in my hand.
And the headline says, RAAF, that's Roswell Army Airfield, captures flying saucer on ranch in the Roswell region.
No details of flying disc are revealed.
I'll just read the first paragraph.
The intelligence office of the 509th Bombardment Group at Roswell Army Airfield announced at noon today that the field had come into possession of a flying saucer, etc., etc.
And so that was a headline that went around the world, and the phones were ringing off the hook in Roswell.
And the person that actually released that under orders of General Ramey is named Walter Hawt.
Now, Walter still is alive and doing well, living down in Roswell with his wife, Lorraine.
They also call her Pete.
And they're very, very gracious people.
So what I'll do is, let me tell you some excerpts of a conversation with Walter that I had two days ago.
And the first conversation, the first question was, how did you end up at Roswell Army Airfield, and how did you become the public relations officer?
Well, take you back in a long way.
Out of high school, I went to work for our Donnelly and Sons Company, stayed with them for a little while, and I worked for Western Electric.
And then I went into the military.
Became an aviation cadet.
Spent a year playing that game and got my commission.
And after my commission, I also went through navigation school during that period of time.
Came to Roswell, New Mexico, and went to Bombardier School.
After that, I was assigned to a crew and we did a lot of different things getting ready to go overseas.
Went overseas.
I was on SIPAN for almost a year through 35 missions against Japan.
I received the Distinguished Flying Cross, four air medals, Purple Heart.
After that was over, I came back to the States and figured, well, the rest of my life will be spent nice and peacefully.
And I wasn't back in the States for about a couple of months, and I went back to Kwajalein.
I dropped the blast gauge instruments into the atomic explosion on Able Day.
Came back to Roswell, or rather, you know, came back to Roswell.
Liked it here, resigned my regular commission, and I've been here ever since.
I was an insurance agent, a real estate broker, art dealer, just a little bit of everything.
Had a lot of fun doing most of it, and retired a number of years ago and just do what I want now.
Now, after you came back to Roswell and worked at the base, what was your role there?
I, well, I was a bombardier navigator by profession, but my additional duty, which is what I spent most of my time as, was a public relations officer for the base.
Now, how did you become a public relations officer?
Did you happen to know the base commander, or what was the process by which you got that job?
When we were on Kwajalein, I got a call to report to Colonel Blanchard.
I went in to see him, and he said, Hawk, what do you know about public relations?
I said, nothing, sir.
And he said, well, Lord, you're the public relations officer for the air attack unit.
Trial by fire.
Swing again.
Trial by fire.
Well, Lord, that gets you an idea of the quality of the people.
I was in the Air Force, John, and I laughed and laughed when I heard that because that's exactly the way it's done.
What do you know about PR?
Well, nothing, sir.
Well, find out because you're the new PR officer exactly how it works.
unidentified
Yeah, I didn't know that story until he told it that way.
Let's talk about another aspect.
Some people say that Walter might have gone off half-cocked and just put out this press release on his own, but I asked him about that.
I asked him about his autonomy and what his ability was to do things like that and where he got the authorization to put that message out.
Here's his response.
In general, I could do just about anything I wanted.
Colonel Blanchard had been a public relations officer when he got out of the point.
That was an additional duty that he had picked up and was very, very sympathetic to the duties of a public relations officer.
He had to play everything by ear.
You didn't know what was going to happen, who downtown would be unhappy about something that some airmen did, who wanted you to put together a parade, I shouldn't say a parade, afloat for the parade, a lot of speaking engagements in the surrounding area.
It was just basically pretty much a full-time job.
Then the next question that really comes to mind is, Roswell is a special Army base.
I asked him about Roswell because, of course, it was the only base that had the atomic bomb back at the time.
And here's what he talked about, Roswell.
Now, Walter Lee, Roswell Army Airfield was a special type of base.
Can you talk about what types of activities went on there back in 1947?
Well, there was a lot of training going on.
Primarily, we were the only group capable of carrying and dropping an atomic weapon.
In essence, we didn't do anything phenomenal other than practice and fly our missions and take care of the normal business.
It was no different than any other group function, just the fact that we were handling a little bit different type of armament.
So these people are GIs, but they're not really, they're certainly not average GIs.
They're people that have a lot of capabilities and were trusted with the atomic bomb.
They'd be the first people that were actually able to do that.
In other words, Walter is just sort of going, ho-hum.
You know, it's just another day.
Here, I had this press release about the Air Force captures a flying disc, and I just took it down there and came home and had lunch.
Like, it was no big deal.
I mean, he must have known what he was delivering.
unidentified
Well, you know, it's odd.
I'm wondering whether people got so used to the fact that there were flying discs flying around.
That's why I read some of the history, all the articles in the newspapers.
People were seeing this stuff, and people had been trying to capture one.
I figured, well, I captured one, and that's it.
But the big question I've got, Art, and the thing that's always bothered me about the Roswell case, is if a flying saucer were down at an Air Force base, would you go public and say we've captured one or would you try and keep it under wraps?
I still don't understand why Blanchard came out with that release.
And Blanchard is actually the one who concocted the main body of that release.
unidentified
That's correct.
Now, Walter recalls that Blanchard had the main release finished, and Walter had to just pretty it up and release it to the local newspapers and also put it on the wire.
I mean, but still, if you're carrying a release down to the local media saying we have captured a flying disc, it's amazing to me that he regarded that as such a ho-hum kind of thing.
unidentified
It might be ho-hum because he's told the story so many times.
Well, it's like carrying a lipstick of dynamite to me.
But in retrospect, he describes it as, well, you know, I just took it down there and I handed it to him when home and had some lunch.
And then I was very surprised at the results.
unidentified
Exactly.
Well, I wanted to find out whether he knew anything other than what he had written in the press release, and so here's the next question.
Basically, were you privy to any other additional information or were in any private meetings to talk about this or see any exotic materials or bodies?
Here's his response.
I was not privy to any of that information, just the information that Blanchard gave me to put in a press release.
So did you ever see any debris or bodies associated with this particular incident?
No, sir, I did not.
As a matter of fact, at the time, even with that press release, there was no mention of bodies to me.
You know, one thing that people have talked about, Art, is if this was happening, wouldn't you see a lot of activity arriving, dignitaries, et cetera, et cetera?
So I asked Walter if he remembered anything that was really unusual, people flying in, flying out.
Now, one thing he does say, and you'll hear, is he doesn't recall any unusual activity, which I thought was a little bit odd, but certainly not necessarily inconsistent.
Perhaps people were coming in and not telling the public relations person what's going on.
Right.
Do you remember any increased activity at the time, for example, an unusual number of incoming or outgoing flights or dignitaries?
Not really.
To me, so many of those things happened on the flight line.
If people were coming into town or flying in, that was done on the flight line, and my office was quite a distance from it.
If it was of any import, I was told about it, and I can go out with the cameraman, and we take pictures and do all those things.
In essence, I didn't get a lot of that information.
If they wanted it publicize, they let me know, and if they wanted to keep it quiet, they didn't say anything to me.
Do you remember anything happening over the next couple of days as far out to the event, or did it pretty much end on that particular day?
Well, I think the only thing that happened beyond that was General Ramey putting out his press release to the effect that it was not a flying disc, it was a weather balloon.
Now, were you involved in that release at all?
No, sir.
That came directly from him.
So pretty much that ended Walter's involvement.
The only thing that he's really done is tell the story about a few thousand times since that date.
Art, he's never changed the story.
It's always been consistent.
That's a sign of a credible witness, in my opinion.
He sounds very sincere, very matter-of-fact, and it is hard to discern whether in his telling now it sounds so mundane, whether it was really that way then, or whether it's just in the retelling it has become mundane for him.
unidentified
Yeah, I totally agree.
Judging by what people have said for their time at the base, they said it was very chaotic at the time, no matter what happened.
And so I think there were a lot of people that found it a lot more exciting, but apparently Walter did not afterwards.
Well, there's another question that often comes to mind, and that is, I talk to intelligence officers about this, and they say when an event happens at a base, would you sometimes they tend to transfer people out of the base so that people can't continue to tell the story or cooperate each other.
So I asked Walter whether there was any transfers out of the bases, he recalled.
Some witnesses have alleged that after the event, folks that were at the base who might have been a participant in the event were scattered to avoid having a lot of people at Roswell that remember the particular incident.
Do you recall any large amount of transfers out of the base after July 47?
No, I do not.
If there were large numbers of them, I think I would have known about it, and it might have stuck in my mind.
But there were so many other things going on that I was running around in circles.
But he also indicated that if something like this happened, it wouldn't always be related to him, Art.
And one other question I asked him, I said, the base was, you know, there's a lot of secrecy on a base.
Why would the base commander issue the press release to the world?
Pretty much of a question we just asked a few moments ago.
Here's this answer.
I didn't, if you want my opinion, I think this was just part of a well-orchestrated plan.
Civilians had seen this material.
Military people had seen the material.
What better way to cover it up than to have the local commander said, we've got a flying saucer in our possession.
It was found on a ranch out here, and the next day the general said, oh, they were wrong.
That was not a flying saucer.
That was a weather balloon, a new type of weather balloon.
You've got to take yourself back to 1947, a difference in just about everything.
When the commander said that this is what happened, that's what happened.
You didn't say, oh, I don't think so, or anything of the sort.
That's right.
You accepted it pretty much.
You know, Art, I think you talked about it on your show several times, that it's really amazing how the military has changed in the perception of the public.
When a military commander would say something years ago, I think you also mentioned the FBI, you took it as gospel.
My Guest is John Kirby, and we're kind of putting a wrap on Roswell with the actual voices from Roswell.
Walter Hutt, who is the guy who actually delivered the press release to the newspaper and to the radio station in Roswell, was just heard from.
Coming up, you'll hear the Marcels, Senior and Junior and more.
unidentified
there's quite a bit ahead so what standby the Streamlink, the audio subscription service of Coast2Coast AM, has a new name, Coast Insider.
You'll still get all the same great features for the same low price, just 15 cents a day when you sign up for one year.
The package includes podcasting, which offers the convenience of having shows downloaded automatically to your computer or MP3 player, and the iPhone app with live and on-demand programs.
You'll also get our amazing download library of three full years of shows.
Just think, as a new subscriber, over 1,000 shows will be available for you to collect, enjoy, and listen to at your leisure.
Plus, you'll get screened and on-demand broadcasts of Art Bell, Summer Inside Shows, and two weekly classics.
And as a member, you'll have access to our monthly live chat sessions with George Norrie and special guests.
If you're a fan of Coast, you won't want to be without Coast Insider.
Visit CoastToCoastAM.com to sign up today.
Now we take you back to the night of July 10th, 1997, on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
Art Bell's Somewhere in Time You might want to make note, tomorrow night Father Malachi Martin will be here.
And an interesting note for you.
At his age, what an incredibly active man, advisor to two popes, and virtually the real exorcist.
And when we talked to his secretary, I think it was day before yesterday, she said he's attending, doing an exorcism right now and should be back shortly.
Can you imagine that at his age still doing exorcisms?
It is an incredible story, and if you have never heard Father Malachi Martin, you're not going to want to miss tomorrow night, believe me.
And we're going to lay heavily on the phones for you tomorrow night.
Now, Frank is a person who claims to have been called to clean up the debris site, actually the impact site, just north of Roswell.
And he'll describe the bodies, et cetera, et cetera.
I just want to talk about Frank a bit.
I first met him back in 1994, and that was when Kevin Randall, Don Schmitz, and Phil Klass, and several others and myself were down in Roswell with the CBS 48 Hours crew.
And also met him again when he was doing a Channel 4 special for Great Britain.
Now, he normally doesn't do a lot of interviews, but he's done a couple and has done several in the recent times.
Now, it's interesting because I happened to talk with him today because he said, John, take a look at the U.S. News and World report for July 14th.
And so I pulled it up and I'll just read you about three sentences if you don't mind.
He said, the oddest witnesses of all is Kaufman, who claims he's still part of the secret military team that recovered the UFO in 1947, although he was discharged from the military in 1945.
And despite what other magazines say, he's never substantiated his claim that he later worked at the Roswell Base as a civilian.
And he said, when I spoke with Kaufman last year for MSNBC, I couldn't believe that this tail-spinning old coot was a leading witness in several books and TV shows.
I haven't heard people called old coots for quite a while.
So I think Frank was probably less than pleased.
But he asked me to tell a story that I'll tell now.
When people look at Frank's military record, it suggests that he was discharged in 1945.
That's actually the case.
But when I was down, he showed me documentation that he, in 1945, transferred from a military person.
He was an NCO, a non-commissioned officer, IC, in charge.
And I saw the paperwork that said he was transferred to become a member of S-1, which is personnel and statistical team, a civilian, but still reporting into the military structure.
No, it's very common for people to retire or leave the military, become discharged, and take a civilian job doing virtually the same thing, but making a lot more money for the military.
And so, no, it's very common.
unidentified
So he couldn't tell me very much about it.
He said that it primarily had to do with intelligence.
And he and I have talked about some things that he did, but I'd rather not get into it right now.
But it had to do with kind of keeping a lid on the secrets of the base, because, in fact, at that time, there was a lot of Soviet spies trying to get at our military secrets, especially the A-Bon.
And so there was a huge staff, apparently, that were trying to protect the secrets, and rightfully so.
So he was one of the members of that staff.
So once again, Frank claims that he went up to clean up the impact site.
So let's talk to Frank just on tape here.
And the first thing I did was ask him about his background.
Well, I was assigned to a special unit at Roswell Army Airfield in 1947.
I was a civilian at the time.
I got out from my military service in 1945, and then I was, or might it call it reinstated, back into service only as a civilian, doing the same assignment, same work.
I think this is the important thing, John, that people understand.
The 509th was a premier group charged with carrying the atomic bomb, the only one at that time.
And we're talking about the base commander.
We're talking about the intelligence officer, Major Marcel.
These were non-trivial people who would certainly not be inclined to misidentify something so terribly as to say it is a.
In other words, they would know well the difference between a weather balloon and a flying saucer.
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Yeah, you would certainly think so.
Well, the way the story goes, Art, is Frank was at Roswell, but remember the articles I read at the beginning of the show, in case some people didn't get it, there was a lot of sightings about a week before the Roswell case all over the country.
And it turns out that many of these sightings were going on near military bases.
One was at White Sands, New Mexico.
And so they asked Frank to go out and look at the radar at White Sands and report back to Roswell what he saw because there was apparently a very good radar station at White Sands.
So I asked him what he was doing at White Sands and to tell the story.
Well, yeah, the sightings or the blips on the radar actually was noted the latter part of June, well, about mid-June and up till July.
And it was in July that we were called from Ravo Army Field to White Sands to view the Blitz.
Because we had radar, experienced radar people in giving us a radar reading.
Why were you personally selected to go to White Sands?
Because I was part of this unit, special unit.
And the mission of that special unit was what?
Oh, doing investigative work and so on.
You see, this base here, you know, was one of the hottest bases in the world.
And you had the Northern Bomb site, you had the 509th, there was Los Alamos, and you had activities going on at White Sands and Holloman Air Force Base.
So we were involved in no security reasons or security activities, I should say.
Well you can certainly say that White Sands and Roswell were key bases.
And so what happened after that was he saw the blip disappear on the radar screen which alerted people that a craft had possibly crashed.
So here's a continuation of the story.
Well this one particular night there was a severe thunderstorm in this entire area and we were in white sands watching the radar screen and we noticed that the radar screen just,
the blips got wider and wider and more pronounced and then the screen lit up and our radar man told us that he thought that possibly something went down.
He wasn't sure where.
But east of White Sands.
And of course as you know radar was limited in those days.
I mean it wasn't sophisticated as it was today.
But he estimated something went down just east of White Sands.
And then the radar screen just went back to normal.
So we were ordered back to Roswell.
And on our way back to Roswell, we were in constant radio communication.
Well, people driving on U.S. Highway 285 North going south noticed this orange ball falling towards Earth.
And it was common in those days to call the base and notify them that possibly a plane went down.
That was a common practice during those days.
And when we got back to Roswell, we were told that this flame or ball was seen about 40, 45 miles north of Roswell.
And that's how we knew just where the impact site was.
Well, we sent out the MPs first.
Now, this was a special unit of MPs.
These fellows were highly trained.
And they located the area for us.
So when we got there, we had these portable searchlights, and we noticed a craft embedded in an arroyo, a craft of unknown origin.
We knew it wasn't a plane, it wasn't a balloon, and it wasn't anything that we've seen before.
So something was definitely crashed that was unusual.
Well, when I talked with Frank, unfortunately, I don't have this on Mike, but he'll tell other parts of the story.
I asked him whether he looked in the craft and could describe the craft, he said that he looked in momentarily and saw through the canopy of the craft as if it was daylight, even though it was nighttime outside, implying there was light amplification going through the canopy.
And that's exactly what Corso reported as technology that was dispersed from the Roswell crash into industry.
So I thought that was pretty interesting.
Well, let's ask Frank what the craft was like as best he can remember.
Can you describe the craft in as much detail as you remember, Frank?
Well, as much as I can remember, the craft was about maybe 20, 24 feet, 24 feet in length, about 12, 14 feet in width, and approximately 6 feet in height.
It wasn't round with a dome type.
It was almost like a V-shape, almost similar to a stealth bomber.
That order of design.
There was a glow still around the craft itself, but it diminished quite rapidly by the time we got there.
And one of the chemical boys, I imagine they were examining it, I guess, for about 45 minutes, if I can remember, before we were allowed to get close to it.
Did you have the opportunity to look inside the craft and did you see anything?
Well, very briefly, I got looked inside, and I noted that there was one body was thrown up against the arroyo.
One body was half in the craft, half out.
It was spread at the seam.
And then one of our people noticed that deterioration was setting in on the skin, so we ordered body bags and had them removed and sent to the base hospital.
In Colonel Corso's book, he mentions that one of the creatures was shot.
Do you agree with that?
No.
Corso wasn't there.
So, no, I don't agree with that.
Wasn't shot, was shot.
So, Colonel Corso's book, he took second-hand accounts or first-hand accounts and incorporated that into the book.
And when I read that, I was very surprised.
And so I went back and specifically asked Frank about that.
The pictures that were sketched by Frank look much more normal, the head larger than normal, but the eyes nowhere near as large as the large eyes you typically see.
The other interesting thing was an orange ball, I've not heard it described that way before, falling, and then his description of the craft itself as glowing after it hit the ground.
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Exactly.
That's how he said he found the craft.
He indicated that people reported the craft was down.
Back now to Portland and John Kirby and coming up to Marcels.
John?
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That's right, Art.
Let me just set the stage for a moment.
When the crash occurred, Jesse Marcel Sr., a major, went up to retrieve the debris and brought that back to the Roswell base.
But on the way back, he stopped and showed it to his wife and his son.
And so, although Jesse Marcel Sr., the major, has passed away, Jesse Marcel Jr., the son who looked at the debris and handled it, is still alive.
Now, there's been a lot of claims over the last couple of years that this thing was really a mogul balloon or it was per the Air Force Report dummies.
And so I specifically talked to Jesse about what he thought in terms of this being mogul or this being actually something that was more exotic than that.
So we can hear some of his comments.
First of all, I asked him what his background was, what he was doing in'47 and what he's doing right now.
Well, I was in 1940s, I was going to school at Roswell, I think it was the St. Peter's School here in Roswell in Grade School.
And of course, my dad was the Air Force Intelligence Officer at the Roswell Army Airfield.
And today you're a physician.
Right.
I have a practice of medicine and actually specializing in ear, nose, and throat disease here in Howlander, Montana, where I've been for the last 26 years.
Now, you were down in Roswell for the 50th anniversary celebration.
What were your thoughts about that?
Well, we just got back today, as a matter of fact.
It was quite a carnival atmosphere, which was, I guess, good for the Roswell Chamber of Commerce.
Great comment, because it was good for the Roswell Chamber of Commerce.
You've heard some of the stories.
But the big thing is, what did he do back in 1947?
I specifically asked to tell the story as best he could about what happened when his dad brought the debris home.
And so this is what he told me.
Well, you know, as you know, my dad was a base intelligence officer, and as such, it was his job to investigate unusual events, you know, aircraft accidents, things of this nature.
And it wasn't too unusual for him to go to a house for a period of time.
And that night in particular, I remember he woke my mother and myself up very excited because he found, you know, he was out to recover some debris from the desert out of Roswell.
And he thought this was unusual enough that he wanted us to see it.
So he came in, woke us up, and I think he said something like a word like a flag saw so I'm not sure about that, but I think that was the meaning he was giving to us.
Can you describe what you said?
Well, I got up in the kitchen.
There was a lot of debris on the floor, and there was some metal foil, some metal structural members like the I-beams, and some black plastic like bakelite at that time.
And I do remember the first thing he wanted us to do was to look for any electronic components such as vacuum tubes or resistors, condensers, but there wasn't anything like that.
How much debris did you see?
Well, it was meant to cover an 8 by 10 foot floor.
And I think there's still more in the car that he had not brought in.
An 8 by 10 foot floor, that is a lot of debris to have hauled home.
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Yeah, in fact, they brought it back in an old car.
And I think they had a car and perhaps a truck, but I think Jesse Sr. was driving a car.
So as you heard, Jesse Jr. said that he thought more debris was still outside in the car.
So it wasn't a trivial amount of stuff.
So, you know, one of the questions is, what was the debris like?
Is it similar to a mogul balloon?
Could you bend it?
What did it seem like?
And so this is what his answer was to that.
You know, I handled it, I picked it up, but I didn't try to bend it or stress it in any way.
I just handled it and just looked at it.
And to me, it just looked like some foil-like material, but not reinforced foil or paper or any other backing, but just a plain foil.
Was it flexible at all, as far as you could tell?
You know, I think it would have been had I tried to bend it.
It looked like it would have been anyway.
Now, you also saw what looked like eye-beams.
Can you describe those?
Well, that was the most peculiar part of this whole thing.
There were some metal eye-beams a quarter of an inch or three-eighths of an inch in width and about 12 to 18 inches long.
And when you looked at the inner surface through the light over your left shoulder, it looked like there was some form of writing along the inner surface of this.
And it was kind of a purple, violet, metallic hue.
And I know my first impression was some sort of hieroglyphic type symbols, but looking at his little closure, they weren't really hieroglyphics, but just like hieroglyphics.
Now, the strange thing about this art is a recent report suggested that if this really was a mogul balloon, when they looked back at some of the mogul debris or mogul structure, there was tape on it, which had some flowers.
Now, why in the world they would put flowery tape on a mogul device back in 1947, I'm not sure.
But they said that perhaps what happened was this tape had flowers on it.
It was laying in the moist air, and so the flowers blended through the tape and actually became embedded on the material.
And so he was looking at material that looked like it was embossed, but it was really not.
So I asked Jesse what he really thought about that possibility.
I don't think it was anything like that.
When I went down to Roswell, I went by Socorro, New Mexico, to talk to Professor Moore, who was one of the project people on Mogul.
And he was kind enough to bring a radar target from the logo balloon to my motel room, where I examined it and had a question very specifically about the tape with the flowers or whatever on it.
And what he described was far different from what I saw.
The tape where these flowers were imprinted were much too wide, maybe an inch or more wide, whereas the figures I saw were much smaller than that, you know, like a quarter of an inch.
And I don't think these were rubbed off on the inside source of that metal beam either.
Now, were these silver-covered beams or were they more of a balsa wood type beam?
Well, they were light like balsa wood, but I don't recall them.
I recall them as being metal.
You know, I built a lot of Bulchwood projects, you know, stick models at the time, so I think I would have recognized Bulchwood, but my impression was metal, not balsa wood.
So one of the other things that they claimed in terms of the Mogul balloon, a Mogul, if I understand correctly, it was a balloon with rubber on the interior with a silver coating.
And, you know, that could explain why it might have been resilient.
You could squeeze it, it would pop back.
So I asked Jesse Marcel Jr. about that.
One of the unique things about the Mogul balloon construction, as I recall, is it was foil on a rubberized backing, which might have given it some strange resilient characteristics.
Did it look anything like that as far as you can recall?
Well, you know, I asked Dr. Moore about the foil because the foil I saw was not backed or reinforced in any way, shape, or form.
You know, the foil he showed me with the current, with that mobile turret that he had there, was paperbacked.
And he did say that the foil was paperbacked.
There were other foil that was not paperbacked, but it did have some sort of structural rigidity to it.
But the foil I saw did not have anything like that, no reinforcement at all.
A while back, there was a film released from Race Antille showing wreckage from the Roswell car, supposedly.
Did the wreckage that you saw look anything like the wreckage shown in the footage?
No, I can't say it did at all.
You know, there's no comparison of the IVs they showed in the film was much too big.
And the letters look different, too.
So I think that's pretty conclusive.
You know, he went out and talked to Dr. Moore, who was the one in charge of Mogul, and looked at some of the old Mogul debris.
And it did not look anything like the old Mogul debris that they compared it to.
Can you describe any of the characters in more detail?
I think you mentioned flowers.
Were there geometrical shapes as well?
Yeah, I didn't see flowers, but these were more like geometric shapes, like truncated pyramids.
The one I remember in particular, it looked like a ball on top of a pyramid that was truncated, so I could seal balancing a ball on its nose.
That's the reason I recall that one.
And, you know, Art, it seems like there are so many people saying they were sworn to secrecy.
I asked him what happened afterwards because if you remember the Roswell movie, perhaps, it indicated that he had saved a piece of debris and his dad, Jesse Marcel Sr., came back and said, I need that debris back.
And so I asked him what really happened and whether he talked about it afterwards and whether he was told not to talk about it.
Right.
Well, what happened is that night, you know, we packed his debris back up and put it in the car and he drove off.
And I didn't see him for a while.
Maybe not the next day or maybe the day after that, I'm not sure.
But as Blake came in, he was quite clear that we were not to talk about this any longer.
Now, in the Roswell film, it showed that you had a piece of debris which you had to give back.
Is that true?
Not true.
Didn't keep any of it.
So once again, sometimes the license in a movie is a little bit different than reality.
How do you think that affected your dad and affected your dad's career?
Well, you know, I don't think it affected him or his career very much.
You know, as far as not being able to tell the difference between a radar balloon and a flying saucer, he did have training in radar school, which I'm sure he recognized the different types of radar targets, the Rowan TARDIS, for sure, which is what the mobile balloon carried.
So he did not confuse what he saw with a radar target.
And I can tell you right now, what I saw was not a radar target either, because I know enough about that to even tell that.
But as far as causing problems for his career, it did not cause any problems for the career because actually he was promoted a short time after that.
Did he ever give you any more details about the crash or the debris afterwards?
Well, years later, we briefly discussed it, and that's after he had come back from a trip out there at the behest of one of the stations there in New Orleans.
And I asked him, was there any debris left?
He said, no, the vacuum will hold that up, as you know.
And we briefly described what we recall, seeing as what the metal looked like, the beams, and what the lighting looked like.
And we all kind of coincided with what we recall.
So that's Jesse Marcel Jr.'s story art.
I think it's really interesting to talk to a first-hand witness and to see what they think about some of the Air Force reports that are going out now.
And it looks like it's definitely not a mogul, at least in the opinion, of Jesse Jr.
Now you've got a very historic piece of tape, I know, that you somehow got from Jesse Marcel Jr., a conversation between Jr. and Sr.
Now passed on.
And do you have that?
unidentified
I've got it ready to go.
In fact, you heard him say at the end of that statement that his dad only talked about it several years later when he went back to Roswell.
Right.
It's curious, I don't know why, but after Jesse Sr. got back from Roswell, he called his son, and normally a parent would not record a telephone conversation to his son, but in this case, he did.
And he stuck the tape in some personal materials, and he put it up in the attic of Jesse Jr.'s home.
And so after he died, Jesse went back and looked through some of the materials and found this tape and said, that's really odd.
Why did my father leave this?
And so he played the tape.
It's a long tape.
I've cut it down to only a couple of minutes.
And it talks about his return to Roswell and what he thought of it.
It's difficult to hear all the information, but we'll give it a try for about a minute or so.
But he's talking about coming back and feeling tired because he was with a film crew all day and there were high winds and so it caused some problems with the filming.
They visited their old house in Roswell, both inside and outside, and people took them back in the house again.
They looked at the floor where the debris was spread out.
And no debris was there anymore because it was vacuum clean.
So we'll just listen to about a minute or so of this.
And besides, on the second day, I spent all day looking for that ranch where we found the stuff.
Uh-huh.
We finally located.
It was too late to take pictures, so we had to drive all the way back into the rock.
And the next morning we took off and went out there, and they got their pictures, but the only thing we ran into the high winds.
Yeah, that's what fun with that.
We did find the place.
They got the pictures.
Of course, they couldn't take any sound then because too much wind for the microphones.
Uh-huh.
So now they're going to have to come back next week over here and have the debt to sound in.
Yeah, I'll let you do that either.
So, if things went okay, well, it's so tired, though.
I'll tell you, I got set up with it.
But I'll tell you what, I did.
I got a chance to visit 13 out of the West 7.
Oh, you did.
Not only externally, but internally.
I met the people who lived there.
Oh, for goodness.
I even got my pictures made up there.
Oh, Bert.
They even put pictures in the floor already.
Well, you get to feel art.
He's back there for the first time, went back to his old house, and it's surprising that after all the years, he did not say anything about it to Jesse Jr. until that particular call about 25 years later.
It's even more interesting that he would choose to record it.
Why in the world would he record a conversation like that with his son?
Unless he intended to leave a marker.
unidentified
I think that's the case.
Now, why would you do it other than think it might be an historic tape that your son would want after you died?
So I was very happy that Jesse Marcel let me take this tape and play it on the air because it had a lot of personal things on there because at the time, Jesse Marcel Jr.'s wife had died, so his father was very compassionate, consoling him for that.
And so obviously those excerpts aren't on the tape that you heard, but it shows what a fine man Mr. Marcel Sr. was.
And I'm sitting here contemplating any possible explanation for the taping of that conversation other than as a historical marker, a father who knew what was going to be ahead for his son.
Even then.
unidentified
That's right.
That's right.
I totally agree.
Well, I've got two more short things for you, Art, if you're interested.
The balloon part of it was the remnants that were taken from this location.
That part of it was, in fact, the story that we were told to give to the public and the news, and that was it.
So just to repeat, he said, this was a cover story, the balloon part of it.
The remnants that were taken to this location, that part of it was, in fact, the cover story we were told to give to the public and the news, and that was it.
That was the direction we were told.
There was no question about it.
We were told this was the story to be given to the press, and that's it, and anything else to forget about it.
John, after all of this and all of the investigation you've done with Kevin Randall, what do you conclude?
unidentified
You know, I think if you took it to a court, a criminal court, where you said beyond all reasonable doubt, I don't think you get a conviction and say that this thing was really a craft of extraterrestrial origin.
But if you were to look at the preponderance of evidence, means that it was kind of tipped ever so slightly, I think there's a compelling case to say that it very well could have been.
But I won't be convinced until I actually see a piece of it or see the government announce it.
But it's so compelling that I'm still investigating it after all these years.
John Kirby has been on for the last two hours with some audio clips.
Many never heard before of the principles involved in the whole Roswell business.
And from Tim in Lakeville, Minnesota Art, please have those audio clips made available on your webpage via AudioNet.
They were astounding.
Please get permission and put them up for all the world to hear.
That's something we can work on and something my webmaster, Keith, probably can do.
So we'll make that request right now.
Some of the more dramatic audio clips.
Keith, if you can get them up there in some sort of format for people to archive, that would be wonderful.
And I want to advise everybody of an experiment going on on the website right now.
It is probable or likely that Monday we will cover the final two hours of the big meeting in Phoenix with Richard Hoagland and company that will occur this Monday.
And we plan to try something quite revolutionary.
In addition to getting audio, if it works, this is all a big if.
If it works and the audio is good, we'll be in a sort of a two-way conversation with those down in Phoenix on Monday, Richard Hoagland and company.
And it's going to be quite an event.
And it is also going to be an event on the internet in the sense that we are going to have a camera at the event, and we are going to do a split screen.
If you've ever been up and seen the studio cam that I've got there now, you can actually see me doing the program, the show.
Instead of just having one photograph up there that cycles through, we're going to have two.
And one of them is going to be from the event going on in Phoenix, and the other will be of me.
And so you will actually not only get to hear both sides, but you'll get to see both sides.
And so Keith has experimentally, Keith Rowland, my webmaster, has been experimentally putting split screens up, and we've got a split screen up there right now.
It's simply experimental, but I would ask everybody to go take a look and see if it looks okay to you.
And then coming Monday would be on the left would be me with this side of the broadcast.
And then on the other side, you would see Phoenix live and what's going on there as you listen to the entire event on the radio.
Now, we're endeavoring to do an awful lot of technological stuff here at once, and there's no guarantee it's going to work.
I'll tell you that right off, but we're going to try.
And we've got a test up there on the site right now of this split-screen technology.
So go take a look and see what you think.
See if you think it will work out all right.
Go to www.artbell.com and then when you get there, simply go down, scroll down until you get to Studio Cam or whatever it is that it says, I believe Studio Cam right now, and click on that and take a look and fax me or email me and let me know what you think.
That's what we're going to try to do with the big conference going on down in Phoenix on Monday.
That'll be the first two hours of the program.
So let me know what you think.
Boy, I'll tell you, always out on the cut edge of everything.
unidentified
The End Okay, so you've got Streamlink, our Apple iPhone app, the Daily Coast Zone free email newsletter, but don't forget the After Dark magazine.
Every month you can read editorials from me, George Norrie, interviews you don't hear on the air, articles on the internet, and news stories not covered by the mainstream.
Simply subscribe now and cover all of your Coast to Coast AM bases.
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Now we take you back to the night of July 10th, 1997, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Art Bell Well, I think we are going to do what nobody has ever done before.
Going where nobody has ever gone before.
Assuming that everything comes together, technically, and you know what happens when you assume, Monday night, it should be possible for those of you with a computer, for example, to listen on real audio or to your local affiliate on your computer as you see a split screen With live photographs coming from me here in Nevada in the desert,
and from the event going on in Phoenix, Arizona, side by side with the audio streaming from your computer.
It will be a first, I do believe.
It really should be something.
So, if you want to take a look, go on up there now and take a look and let me know what you think.
We've got an experimental split screen up there right now.
I am getting persistent reports of UFO sightings near Atlanta.
Mr. Bell, I am an independent UFO researcher living in Atlanta, and I'm contacting you to inform you about the incredible rash of sightings in our state, particularly the city of LaGrange, which is about an hour and a half south of Atlanta.
There have been documented instances of landings, low-fly-by sightings of crafts about 30 feet off the ground, and many other such occurrences.
I thought you might want to mention this on the air so people in that community would be encouraged to call your show and share some of what's going on with the rest of the nation.
Indeed, I would very much like to hear from people in that area.
This is about the second or third night that I have been receiving these kinds of reports.
What's going on in Georgia?
Rolling over some of the rest of the news, Joe Camel is being put out to pasture by the tobacco companies.
The most startling news of the day from the CDC.
Sorrowfully, not surprisingly, the CDC has confirmed the first case of transmission of HIV by kissing.
CDC says they've confirmed it.
The man's saliva was contaminated because his gums bled after he brushed and flossed his teeth.
The CDC says interviews with a couple indicate they always had used latex condoms during intercourse, and they had ruled out any other possible path of HIV transmission.
Yeah, I enjoyed especially the one passage when he talks about the footprints and that if you believe it's a hoax, you'd almost have to believe in a worldwide conspiracy laying down footprints over the past century.
And in other words, who's funding this organization and how they've been able to keep it secret for so long.
It's very difficult trying to get people when you don't have contact information.
unidentified
But I'm sorry, I'm from Ohio, and I work out here in Washington, but I don't know the guy, so I couldn't give you no information on how to get a hold of him.
Well, listen, I heartily appreciate your having said it.
Thank you, and I will do what I can.
And let me take a moment to say this.
If you have a suggestion for a guest, by all means, if you have any way, publishers' names, phone numbers, addresses, any way I can get hold of the person that you want to get on the air, it is very helpful.
Wildcard line, you're on the air.
Hi.
unidentified
Yes, Art.
Yes.
This is Tim in Phoenix.
Hi.
The reason I was calling, did I hear you earlier, you said Hoagland didn't believe we were on Mars?
Okay, if he didn't think we were there, would not, okay, some of the people that didn't like us, like Russia or some of these other countries, would check to see if our signals weren't coming from Mars, you know, from the location we said we're at, and then come back and say, hey, you're lying, and, you know, just try to make a, you know.
That's what I just said, sir, that in his own way, he thinks that NASA mooned America because while he thinks we did go to the moon, he believes that there were things there that were not reported on.
unidentified
Well, I'd like to see him address what was reported on in NASA mooned America.
Some of those, not some of them, but there's some substantial points there that need to be addressed.
So what I would advise my audience is it was an historic broadcast on Sunday.
This last Sunday.
Truly historic.
And you should get a copy of it.
And you can do so.
And I mean really historic.
This is a program everybody should have a copy of.
You can get it by calling 1-800-917-4278.
And you want to request the Dreamland interview with Colonel Philip Corso this past Sunday.
The number, again, is 1-800-917-4278.
By the way, for those of you who would like a copy of The Quickening, I've got...
happened there.
I've got a If you would like to jump and get one, you will not get an autographed edition, but soon your ability to get the book at all is going to be gone for a while because it's going to go into general release in late August or early September.
I'm Art Bell.
We're going to pause here at the bottom of the hour and we'll be right back.
unidentified
You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Premiere Radio Networks.
Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 1997.
Coast to Coast AM from July
10, 1997.
Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 1997.
Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 1997.
Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
Tonight's program originally aired July 10th, 1997.
Art Bell Somewhere in Time Yes, the one thing that really has always bothered me the most about my own reaction to a ticket is that I inevitably, inevitably, I say thank you.
And then as I'm driving away, I think to myself, why the hell did I say thank you?
What's the matter with me?
And it just, it comes out.
Thank you.
Some sort of something from my childhood when I was taught to be very polite with a police officer.
And it just comes out.
And until later, when I thrashed myself mentally for it, for thanking somebody for giving me a ticket.
You know, I once got a ticket for doing...
And this police car was doing 60 miles an hour right on the nose.
And I passed the guy doing 62 miles an hour.
And I thought, no way is he going to give me a ticket for two miles over the speed limit.
I look back, flashing red lights.
Siren, I pull over.
And he said, you know, that's about the dumbest thing I've ever seen.
He said, you never pass a police officer who's doing the speed limit.
I said, officer, I was doing 62 miles an hour.
He said, you never pass a police officer doing the speed limit.
He was incensed that I had just barely crawled by him.
The other thing I had to question about, and I've never heard it answered, and I've always wondered, Neil Armstrong was supposed to be the first man to step on the moon.
Right.
But yet in this footage they show of him coming off the ladder, the camera's at least 15 feet away.
Filming the spacecraft as he's walking off of it and taking his giant leap.
Long time ago, I gave up on trying to dissuade people that I am not part of the government, not part of whatever current conspiracy they think is going on.
And so instead of denying it, because you never get anywhere denying it, in fact, more people end up then being suspicious, I just admit it.
Trilateral?
Yeah, you bet.
Every meeting wouldn't miss one.
CIA?
Heck yeah.
I'm inside.
And that stops them.
You know, when they call up and they say, well, well, we've heard you're a CIA.
Somewhere here, I've got a long article that accuses me of being part of some great conspiracy.
I've read some, of course, and I so what would you like to know?
unidentified
Well, I've read some of the stuff myself.
And actually, you know, they read Revelations, Confrontations, and some of the other stuff.
I was just kind of intrigued by his writing because basically he takes the stand that unidentified flying objects are real phenomena.
But he pretty much rides the fence or, in his words, takes an unbiased opinion about what exactly those phenomena are.
And he kind of makes the case for not jumping to conclusions and saying so much that UFOs are necessarily extraterrestrial as from other planets or another part of the solar system.
Well, it's interesting, you know, because he makes every once in a while he lets slip out certain things like some of these things I've heard on your show before as far as he calls perhaps the beings fractal beings, you know, along the lines of quantum physics and such and so forth.
The only thing that really disturbs me about his writing is, especially in the book Revelations, the case he makes, what he states basically is that a lot of what passes in the popular culture for the UFO phenomenon, some of the interpretation of that is basically government misinformation.
But then the next step that he makes, you know, it's like he's building this whole case.
You know, basically it's conspiracy that the government is perpetuating, but then the reasons for the perpetuation really don't stand up like military flying platforms.
Well, whether they do or do not exist, I don't know.
I don't see the government going to such Great lengths to just cover up basic military secrets.
Perhaps it's true.
Perhaps Area 51 is nothing but advanced military technology.
And I wouldn't be surprised if it was some amazingly incredible stuff, both electronically and otherwise, stuff that the American public has no idea about something which wouldn't come on the commercial market for, say, 15 or 20 years.
So I don't know.
I'm just kind of rambling, but I think it's very interesting the point he makes that I think there is some government misinformation going on, certainly with, as you've covered on your show, that farce of a press conference that the Air Force put on, for instance, and other things.
Your voice electronically is being transmitted near the speed of light, sir.
If you're talking about electronic transmission, if you're standing across the room from me, talking to me, then that audio is arriving from your lips to my ear at the speed of sound.
But in our discussion now, over phone lines or through satellite relay, it is occurring near the speed of light.
But through wires or electronically, it moves at near the speed of light.
Does that help you?
unidentified
Well, yeah, I just had that question.
And you know the other question I had, too, is that when it comes to being on the air, how long have you been on the air and what did it take for you to get to the point where you're national?
Sir, I'd just like to confirm a report that a man called you up either last night or the night before saying that Richard Hoagland was on another TV show.
well another radio program that would be a girl grow show and he did confirm that uh...
It is a great mystery to me why he believes as he does.
But that should be part of the interesting aspect of what we're going to do on Monday, I think.
He will have time from now through the weekend to digest all of the information that's been coming all week long from NASA.
And I'm sure we'll hear a definitive statement on Monday from Richard, and you can bet your bottom dollar there will be a lot of questions about exactly that.
So we'll see.
Welcome to the Rockies.
You're on the air.
Hi.
unidentified
Hi, Art.
This is Daniel in Portland.
Yes.
Hi.
Yeah, I just want to say about Richard Holdland.
I take great interest in what he speaks of, except I think he really is in denial about this, but I don't think he's wrong, totally, because I think that if he puts his energy, instead of denying the facts that it is on Mars, put its use, that maybe there's something behind the scenes that he hasn't seen yet, to the pattern that he always talks about.
Maybe there's something that's continually going on.
Well, I could have accepted many answers from Richard in a continuing, credible way.
In other words, he could have said, and it might even be true, that the publicity that we generated caused NASA to rethink what they might have otherwise done, and so they landed on the fourth.
I could have accepted that.
Or I could have accepted a whole lot of different scenarios other than it's just untrue.
The whole thing is fake.
That is one I cannot accept.
unidentified
But the thing is, how he's always talking about tetrahedral, this map.
Well, the fact of the matter is that it did land on 19.5, tetrahedral, and all the aspects of the spaceship itself.
So right there, that says something.
But it may be a slightly different scenario than his scenario that he told you on the air.
Yeah, that's where they came down, I believe, at 19.5.
That's correct.
And I found it interesting that Richard was not fascinated by, nor intrigued by, the fact that they were coming down at 19.5, because that would have fit in with so much of what he was saying.
I could have accepted a lot of answers from Richard other than the one that he gave and still maintains.
Now, I just learned he was on Gil Gross.
I didn't know it was Gil Gross.
I've never heard Gil Gross.
We don't get him out here.
But I did have an opportunity to speak to Richard the day following after the caller had made the comment, and I asked him about that.
And he steadfastly maintained that he still thinks it's a fake, a fraud, and that he did say that if they had landed, he would be very angry about that.
And the few articles that I've read about HARP, if you go to, I don't know if it's actually what university it was, but anyhow, it's a joint university and U.S. military project where they're actually, they state in the release that it's for communication purposes with submarines.
And what I wanted to say is I've studied some Buddhism and noticed that some of the scholars in Japan had done much of the same thing with the Lotus Sutra.
And what they derived from it was some characters that they put into a mandala and used with a chant called Namyo Horinge Kyo, the title of the Lotus Sutra.
Well, if you were listening to what I said, I said concurrent with that, you would have to be developing new sources of cleaner energy with which to charge those cars, or you would gain nothing because you've got to use coal or oil to generate the electricity.
To me, the problem is, That's really an important fact.
Don't just say write and gloss over it.
Develop solar energy, develop more energy with water, with even wave energy, all different kinds of cleaner energy, and then electric cars, and then you have really accomplished basic.
unidentified
My problem with the electric car is that batteries are, first of all, they're very inefficient.
You've got to put a lot more into them than you get out of them.
Secondly, the one thing about internal combustion engines is you can pull it to your gas station and recharge in five minutes and drive for six hours.
You're never going to be able to do that with a battery.
My last point is somebody can check me on this if I'm wrong.
I think directly opposite the Earth from the Great Pyramids, or from Giza and the Pyramids, I believe is about 800 miles due south of Tahiti in the middle of the Pacific.
And maybe on the bottom of the ocean there is, but I believe it's somebody can check me on that, but I think it's due south of Tahiti by 800 or 1,000 miles or so in the South Pacific.
Fascinating.
I'm in the middle of Howard Stern country here, but if I could only listen to one talk show, it would be the Art Bell Show.
I don't know how much the general audience would enjoy it, but if you were either A, a Howard Stern fan, or B, in broadcasting, I think you would enjoy it.
Because it documented the fights he had with NBC in New York, and it was fascinating.
I don't know, had you described the content of your email to me, I might have been able to answer that question.
But I use a kind of a system of triage with email, trying to eliminate the spam, which is about a third of every day's daily email, and then trying to decide, based on titles, what is important beyond that.
So if it's really urgent, say so in your email title.
We'll be right back.
unidentified
You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Premiere Radio Networks.
Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 1997.
somewhere in time tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 10th 1997 Good morning from the high desert this is uh radio as it happens whatever it is we talk about from Jim in Oceanside California Good morning Art first discovered you about three years ago in Honolulu got several diverse questions What is the latest in harp activity?
Actually Jim I need to find out about that I don't have an update for you Is the woodpecker signal still emanating from Russia?
There I can answer you.
No, it is not.
Three, are your guests paid?
No, the answer is no.
I have never, in all my years of radio, ever paid a guest.
And four, do you think it's the nicotine in cigarettes that does the damage, or is it the added chemicals?
And to that one, I have no answer.
I don't know.
And I'm not sure I want to know, he says, as he observes his own burning cigarette, and observes his nicotine stained fingers.
Ha ha ha ha.
unidentified
we take you back to the night of July 10 1997 on Art Bell somewhere in time Well okay here's a fax from an unsigned person with no fax header.
You know, they're usually cowardly like this Referring to the lady who had the bankruptcy that I had not very much sympathy for because she couldn't get a TV or a computer or whatever.
Um hey Mr. Better Then play your song for someone else When the country is based on worthless wages, how can anyone get credit let alone pay bills?
I guess you've never been there in this reality.
Well you know what Mr. Um I won't identify myself by facts.
You're full of great big wet brown horse poop.
I have spent uh I've never been there in this reality, huh?
Uh yes, I'm making more money now than I have at any point in my life previously.
But I am now 52 years old and I have been in radio for 30 years and anybody who's been in radio can tell you that I spent a great deal of my time starving to death, generally losing more money than I made, generally falling behind, generally having credit problems.
So you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
And in all those years, I never declared bankruptcy.
I could have, but I didn't.
I don't fault the lady for filing Chapter 13.
That's her business.
But there is a penalty you pay when you do that.
And generally you cannot get credit for about seven years.
And that's what I was trying to tell her.
But for you to come at me and tell me that I don't know what it's like to make low wages, I'm telling you that you're full of crap.
That I've lived a long life now.
And the great majority of it was spent payday to payday like just about everybody else in the world.
So you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
And moreover, sending a fax like this without a header or an ID or a signature at the bottom is the act of an absolute loser, coward, kind of person, which is what I assume you are.
Well, when I watched the movie, me and my friends were thinking about it, and we were always, you know, just we saw on TV, like, when Ronald Reagan was shot, the IRS and all them, the Secret Service, they were always wearing black suits and they had those wires hanging up to their ears.
Well, it's a claim made by countries with a great deal of population.
The Chinese, for example, have frequently said that they could withstand losing, what is it, one in four, one in five of their population in a nuclear war without even missing them.
Now, I hadn't really heard the story about a couple of people being eaten in India.
Well, I mean, if you were to say something in your native tongue, which I would not be permitted to do at this time, or I would be immediately disconnected.
unidentified
Really?
Really?
But I could tell you some interesting things, though.
I was just going to relay a little message that, you know, with all these things that are happening, I mean, myself, I see them not as being what we think they are.
I mean, if there was not linear time, everything would be occurring at once, and it's already bad enough in linear time right now.
unidentified
You would understand, though, when you were young, as well as when you were old, and in the middle, you would understand who you were, where you are, and where you're going.
You see, your life would be more of a circle instead of a chop-chop line.