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July 10, 1997 - Art Bell

02:55:00

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Roswell Investigator John Kirby

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	Welcome to Arkbell, Somewhere in Time.
	The night featuring Coast to Coast AM from July 10th, 1997.
	From the high desert and the great American Southwest, we bid you all good evening and or good morning as the case may be across all these many, many time zones stretching from the Hawaiian and Tahitian Islands in the west, eastward across flyover country, that's all of us, to the Caribbean.
	The exotic U.S.
	Virgin Islands, south into South America, north well to the pole, and worldwide on the Internet.
	This is Coast to Coast AM, and I'm Art Bell, and tonight should be very historic indeed.
	You will hear things you have not heard before.
	In the first couple of hours of the program from Portland, it's John Kirby.
	And I'm gonna let John tell you all about himself and what he's got for you, not in terms of stories so much this morning, But in terms of actual audio clips from some of the people whose names, if you don't know now, you certainly will know before the next couple of hours go away.
	I don't know if we'll call this one Roswell Case Closed or not.
	We'll let you decide for yourself.
	So all of that coming up in the first couple of hours, then open lines and anything you want to do.
	Last night certainly was wild enough.
	So who knows what's coming up tonight.
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	dot com that's w w w dot coast to coast a m dot com now we take you back to the night of july tenth nineteen
	ninety seven on our bills somewhere in time
	and here we go now up to the portland area kiki x
	country as a matter of fact and uh... and john kirby
	John, welcome to the program.
	Good evening, Art.
	Good evening.
	It's great to have you back.
	You have, I know, worked with Kevin Randall on several books, or are mentioned in a couple of his, Conspiracy of Silence, the Randall Report, and And I don't know a lot more about your background, so if you wouldn't mind, give us a sort of a brief sketch of who you are.
	Sure.
	I got a bachelor's and master's in electrical engineering from a school in the Northeast.
	And I'm currently working in high technology as a manager of a local major high-tech firm.
	And I first got interested in UFOs by doing investigations into abductions back in 1991.
	In 1993, I had the good fortune of meeting Kevin Randall and Don Schmidt, who are some of the leading authors in the Roswell case.
	And so, with Kevin and Don and other people associated with him, for example, Kent Jeffrey, who's been on television recently, Paul David, the executive producer of the Roswell movie, and even folks like Philip Class, I've had a chance to participate in investigations and have been down to Roswell several times.
	One of the times we were down there was the time when they shot the 48-hour special segment about Roswell.
	I've been down to Area 51 a couple of times.
	I worked on the television crew for the Larry King special from Area 51 about three years ago.
	Oh, I'll never forget that.
	That was one where Larry had a desk out in the middle of the desert there.
	Beautiful shows to work on.
	What they did was we brought out a satellite truck and a TV production truck and parked it right by the famous Ailey Inn, which is outside the gates of Area 51.
	Yes.
	And set up a stage and the cameras and it was a gorgeous sight because the background was a desert and Larry had a desk right there about 5 feet, actually 3 feet above the desert.
	He looked cold.
	It was cold near the end, believe me.
	And also we had a lot of trouble with moths and one of the funny stories is that Some moths were flying around in the background and of course occasionally they get caught in the lights and people were calling and saying they saw UFOs in the background.
	I know, I remember that.
	Listen, since you've been so intimately involved in all that has gone on, I would like to get your comments before we begin here.
	On the Air Force's presentation of Roswell case closed, you saw, I'm sure, I hope you saw, the now famous or infamous news conference the Air Force did.
	What was your take?
	Well, I look at the Air Force report and I try and keep an open mind about how people interpret all the data, but I think it is somewhat of a stretch to say that people are confusing memories over the space of ten years.
	When you look at it, they're claiming that it was a 1956 KC-97 airplane crash, in which 11 Air Force members died, and also a 1959 manned balloon mishap, and they had pilots, and also were dropping tests on these.
	You know, I think I can remember exactly, as a matter of fact, I do remember exactly where I was and what I was doing when I heard that President Kennedy died, because at these big events, you remember exactly where you were.
	I remember sitting in the 6th grade and the teacher coming in and saying, the President just died.
	And I can tell you exactly the environment, and there's no question about where I was and what happened.
	I was at Amarillo Air Force Base, John, so you must be a little younger than I am.
	How old are you?
	I'm right now 44.
	Okay.
	Anyway, your take is that, I guess, just like mine, I felt sorry for the Colonel who had to come out there.
	Absolutely.
	And, you know, I've talked several times with the Lieutenant, now Captain McAndrew, back in the time that he was preparing the Air Force report about three years ago.
	Uh, he really is convinced that this thing did not happen, and I would suspect that he's doing it out of the highest motivations, and he really believes that the event is fictitious.
	Now, I personally, I'd say the jury is still out, although there's a preponderance of the evidence that the event really did happen, and it could have been very exotic.
	But, uh, those people are convinced, and they don't necessarily want to look at the data, which is unfortunate.
	For example, they have not interviewed a lot of the first hand witnesses.
	Alright, uh, let's, which is some of what we are going to get to tonight.
	uh... that they did not get to uh... one more thing for you to comment on and that is of course the compound that just went on celebrating the fiftieth uh... anniversary of roswell at roswell uh... the network coverage of it primarily seem to be of people in tin hats uh... the museum that sort of thing people milling around the crowds but none of the substance really covered uh... uh... do you think you see it I would agree with that totally.
	I wasn't down there that week.
	I had a personal commitment, but I was there the week before to get a chance to talk to some of the witnesses, but I did see Kevin Randall and Ken Jeffrey on Nightline.
	Now, I've always had a lot of respect for Ted Koppel.
	I always thought that he would play a story very straight, but the beginning of the story was introduced as a Roswell myth, and so you can tell where the bias is.
	Tells you where it's going, yeah.
	So that kind of tipped it off.
	He introduced Kevin Randall as a true believer, and I thought that was not necessarily in keeping with the dignity of Nightline, which I highly respect.
	Well said.
	I agree with you most times.
	Nightline has been one of the better broadcasts to watch with regard to breaking news.
	But that's the way the media is.
	I've learned that about these sorts of things.
	Anyway, they could have called it the Roswell Controversy, and it would have been a fair show.
	Well, you know, the only time we'll know the Roswell event really happened, and the craft was extraterrestrial, is when you find a piece of debris that's undoubtedly not from Earth, and you can trace the pedigree back to the Roswell case, and that's one way to say, I've got a piece of debris that can be actually verified.
	The evidence is anecdotal.
	Well, now, at Roswell, I don't know whether you're aware of it, but there was a presentation uh... by uh... paul davids uh... and company uh... with regard to a a piece of claim directed from roswell uh... and they claim to have uh... reports showing and and by the way is a lot of confusion these are not what are affectionately known as arts parts so you know the stuff i have but they claim to have documentation indicating that uh...
	This piece definitely was not of terrestrial origin.
	Are you familiar with that?
	Yes, I am.
	In fact, I thought that was an excellent test.
	Back when you first found Arch Park, you and I talked on the telephone, and I did a follow-on conversation with Linda Howe, and we talked about ways that it could be identified as being exotic, and one of the ways is to look at the isotope ratio inside the substance.
	That indicates You know, there's certain isotopes usually found in the U.S.
	in certain percentages.
	I'm sorry, in the world in certain percentages.
	But if you find vastly different percentages in the isotopic ratios in the substance, you can conclude perhaps that it isn't from here.
	Yes.
	And I think that's a really good indicator.
	So I thought that press conference was very good.
	I'd like to see where that ends up.
	Okay.
	Any comment on the Mars Pathfinder mission?
	Great controversy going on about that in some quarters.
	Not in mine.
	I think we're squarely on Mars.
	But the pictures have been incredible.
	Today's latest example was really neat.
	I mean, they made up a little movie of the rover bumping up against this rock and nearly climbing it.
	Any comments on the whole Pathfinder thing?
	You know, Art, it's remarkable what the technology will do.
	I don't always agree with Richard Hoagland on various topics.
	However, I think it was Richard's pressure to keep NASA open, to revisit the days back in Viking.
	You probably remember when the Viking lander landed on the moon?
	Of course.
	He had live coverage of that, also live coverage of the Voyager flybys.
	And I was hoping that they would open this thing up real time for the data.
	And I don't know whether that was a recent decision or not, but they did.
	And it shows you how exciting it is.
	I've tried to get onto the website.
	The website has taken millions of hits per day from around the world.
	Oh, yes.
	It's a very good PR event for NASA.
	I don't know why they don't do this for other missions, but I'd like to see the same thing happen for Cydonia, frankly.
	I'd like to see what's really there.
	So would I. And maybe the next time we go to Cydonia, or actually, there's another probe on the way now that will Maybe, they say, image Cydonia with high-resolution cameras.
	We shall see.
	Exactly.
	All right.
	You've got some interesting material for us this night, and so why don't we get into it?
	Okay.
	Let me just give you a quick rundown of what we're going to talk about.
	It's very interesting to listen to the researchers talk about Roswell, but I think it's even more interesting to listen to the first-hand witnesses that actually handled debris were actual participants.
	Right.
	And the one fortunate thing, since I've had a chance to investigate people at Roswell, or talk to people at Roswell, I've gotten to know pretty much most of the major participants as friends.
	And what I thought I would do is, last week when people were thinking about it, I called several people, and I'll tell you who those people were, and said, would you mind giving me your memoirs, and I'll answer some questions.
	They said, fine.
	Then I thought maybe you might like these too, and they gave me permission to play these on the air.
	Very good.
	So what you're going to hear Uh, is, uh, a conversation, excerpts of a conversation with Walter Haught.
	Everybody's heard of the big press release saying that the United States had captured a flying saucer.
	Right.
	This is the guy that actually put out the release.
	The guy who put out the release?
	Walter Haught.
	Actually, it's Walter Haught.
	Alright.
	I got corrected.
	Everybody pronounces him incorrectly.
	It's Walter Haught.
	He said, you ought to be Haught.
	So, it's Walter Haught.
	Alright.
	Also, another person is Frank Kaufman.
	Now, Frank was in a newspaper, U.S.
	News and World Report today, and I'll comment about that later on.
	Frank claims to be one of the people that was sent to the impact site to clean up the bodies and the debris.
	And we'll get some excerpt from him.
	Also, Jesse Marcel, Jr.
	Now, he is the son of a person named Jesse Marcel, Sr., a major.
	Now, Marcel was the first person to go to the Brazel Ranch to look at the debris.
	And he brought the debris home and showed it to his son.
	And his son is still alive and doing real well.
	He's a doctor in Montana.
	And he's going to talk on tape exactly what he saw and what he thinks about the possibility that it's a mogul balloon or some other mundane explanation.
	Another thing I've got is a very rare tape that I don't think has ever been aired before except I aired it on your show about two years ago.
	It's a conversation that Jesse Sr.
	had with Jesse Jr.
	when he went back for the first time to Roswell and talked about the experience.
	Jesse Jr.
	happened to find that tape in an old box of debris and he didn't know why his father recorded it.
	His father recorded it and put it in a box hoping that Jesse would find it.
	So we're going to hear about that.
	Finally, Colonel Thomas DeBose, who was the Chief of Staff of the 8th Air Force, he had a conversation with Kevin Randall.
	He's going to talk about specifically that this balloon story was a cover story to keep the press off General Rainey's back.
	That's on tape.
	And finally, a person named Major Edwin Easley.
	He was the Provost Marshal for the 509th Bomb Group.
	And he's going to be on tape saying that, I can't talk about it.
	I'm still sworn to secrecy.
	So something definitely odd happened.
	Well, that's quite a lineup.
	That's quite a lineup, and I remember vaguely the conversation between Jesse Marcel Jr., and I've had him on the air as an interview, and senior, but that's a very historic, unusual piece of tape.
	Yeah, you were kind enough, when I did get a hold of the tape, you were kind enough to put me on the air and we played that one night, so that was about two years ago.
	Alright, well, if we have time, I don't know how long each one of these is.
	After about two minutes each, maybe less.
	All right, why don't we go ahead and do one?
	Why don't we begin one now?
	Okay.
	Art, would you mind if I give a brief history of the incident?
	No, of course not.
	Of course not.
	Go right ahead.
	Let's talk about what happened in 1947.
	I think a lot of people aren't that familiar with the Roswell case, and so I just pulled together some of the data today, and I'll try and give like a two-minute history of Roswell.
	The first big thing that happened was in June 26 of 1947.
	People probably remember the name Flying Saucer.
	Well, the flying saucer term was first coined by a person named Kent Arnold, who was a pilot who happened to be flying near Mount Rainier up here in the northwest near Portland.
	He saw objects in the sky that were skipping along the air like saucers skipping along water.
	They weren't shaped like saucers, but they skipped like saucers.
	And the news media picked that up.
	And so between June 26 of 47 and July 7 of 47, I would urge people interested to go look at the library, because it's unbelievable what the news stories were at that particular time.
	If you look, almost every other day there's major headlines announcing that airliners had seen flying discs.
	For example, July 5th here in the Portland, Oregonian, headline story, airliner crew confirms flying discs over state.
	Other ones, flying saucer reports coming from all over, view of flying saucers over Ontario, dumpbounds, veteran pilot, and other crew members of an airliner.
	It's unbelievable.
	It's really interesting to look back at that history.
	So then, as that was going on, July 4th is when it's believed that the craft crashed near Roswell.
	Now there were two sites.
	One where debris spread down over a ranch.
	That's commonly called the Brazzle Ranch.
	And also a site apparently closer to Roswell where the actual craft was recovered.
	Then that happened on the night of July 4th.
	July 5th, people finished the cleanup operation.
	On Sunday, we find Mack Brazel making the trip down to Roswell to report that he had found debris.
	And eventually, on Monday the 7th, we have people going up to check out the story.
	And finally, they confirm it by putting out a press release on July 8th, 1947, saying that the United States had actually captured a flying saucer.
	That was in the early afternoon.
	And late in the afternoon, they retracted that.
	So some papers in the country, you can look it up and you can see the headlines saying that the U.S.
	has a flying saucer in custody.
	Other papers that had a later deadline or earlier deadline did not have that.
	Alright, here's where I get puzzled.
	With all of the newspaper headlines, the radio reports, everything occurring in 1947, how could the Air Force, I've got to ask again and again, Have referred to the beginning of 1953 to account for something that obviously, when we have the proof, occurred in 1947.
	No matter what you believe occurred in 1947, they used the beginning of the experiments in 1953 to account for it.
	It's just...
	Ridiculous.
	Yeah, it's very odd.
	I think their claim part is, back in 1947, that there was a crash of a mogul balloon on the Brazel Ranch.
	Yes.
	And they still target that date as being in 1947.
	The trouble is, people were reporting bodies, and so what they did was they looked over the history to see whether they can record anything having to do with body recovery.
	Oh yeah, but nobody reported aliens parachuting in.
	Right.
	No parachutes were reported, you're right.
	Okay.
	It's a very odd It's an odd claim by the Air Force.
	Yes.
	Okay, what we can do, Art, if you want to, we can get into the first clip.
	It's a relatively short clip, about two minutes, if we have time.
	Well, now we're getting dangerously close to the bottom of the hour, and I don't want to have to cut it off.
	Okay.
	So we can talk about, for example, where do you go from here?
	You've been investigating this.
	Now there has been the big Roswell blowout.
	At the 50 year point.
	Where do you think things go from here with regard to the investigation?
	Does it all quiet down for another 50 years or what?
	I don't think so.
	And I can't give you a lot of details, but there are still witnesses who have not come forward publicly.
	One who I've been working with for the last two years.
	He seemed to have remarkable connections.
	In fact, he told me two years ago that the Air Force was going to talk about a strange foreign aircraft.
	He called it What do you think is going on now?
	for roswell which turned out to be potentially the japanese balloon
	experiment and uh... that turned out to be correct not on how we knew
	that two years in advance but he fairly has good contacts in the government
	he tells me that records are still available but the trick is finding so
	a lot of us are really preoccupied with trying to find those but uh...
	uh... it's it's very very difficult to chase down records what do you think's going on now
	in other words area fifty one uh... would
	well i would suspect that there's just two hypotheses.
	One is the fact that nothing exotic was going on at Area 51.
	It's strictly an area where advanced bombers are tested or advanced fighter aircraft are tested.
	But Bob Lazar claimed that near Area 51, an area called S-4, they were testing recovered flying saucers or re-engineered flying saucers.
	Now, I've met Bob Lazar and talked with him for about a half an hour.
	He seems to be a very sincere person, but sometimes sincere persons can be misleading, right?
	Yes.
	But the story that he tells, in terms of how the crap was propelled, and the consistency by which he tells the story, and he specifically says, I don't know the answer to this when we get outside that area that he says he's familiar with, makes him somewhat of a credible witness.
	And so, it's possible that was going on down there, but it's certainly not a fact.
	Did you hear the interview we did with Colonel Corso on Sunday's Dreamland?
	I did.
	I thought that was very compelling material.
	And, uh, in the middle of that interview, he said the, uh, flying saucers, the discs, uh, are driven by, in effect, capacitors.
	A really fascinating interview.
	Anyway, listen, hold on, John.
	We'll be back after the, uh, bottom of the hour break.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 1997.
	On this eminent ocean, find a love of no such taste Early hours turn to beautiful secret days of sight
	Watching in slow motion as you turn around to say Take my breath away
	Take my breath away I see it, I can't wait
	I see it, I can't wait Wild men sing, only fools rush in
	But I think they're falling in love with me You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast A.M.
	from July 10th, 1997.
	Does it happen to you?
	Do you have a song that just keeps running around in your head?
	Songs that you've got to play again and again until your ears bleed?
	Until you're satisfied?
	This is one of them for me.
	This particular reggae version of this I had a hard time finding it, too, by the way.
	Anyway, good morning, and welcome to the program.
	My guest is John Kirby, and you're about to hear things that you have never heard before.
	It'll probably be the last program that we do in sort of closing off the Roswell business for a while.
	but brace yourself you're going to hear some pretty interesting information
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	Here's what you missed on Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
	There are some who always wonder why, if there are ETs out there, they don't come and bail us out.
	Why haven't they fixed the oil spill?
	Why haven't they taken care of famine and wars?
	Why don't they do that?
	You know, I think ultimately when this comes out, it'll change everything on the planet.
	Certainly if they intervene to just kind of like overtly solve our problems, they understand.
	But that would actually hinder our evolution.
	Now we take you back to the night of July 10th, 1997, on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	♪♪♪ Back to John Kirby in Portland, John.
	Hello, Art.
	Okay, why don't we begin on what you've got?
	Okay, well, let me take you back to Tuesday, July 8, 1947, and I've got a copy of a newspaper, the Roswell Daily Record in my hand, and the headline says, RAAF, that's Roswell Army Airfield, captures flying saucer on ranch in the Roswell region.
	No details of flying disc are revealed.
	I'll just read the first paragraph.
	The Intelligence Office of the 509th Bombardment Group at Roswell Army Airfield announced at noon today that the field had come into possession of a flying saucer, etc., etc.
	And so that was a headline that went around the world, and the phones were ringing off the hook in Roswell.
	And the person that actually released that, under orders of General Ramey, is named Walter Haught.
	Now, Walter is still alive and doing well, living down in Roswell with his wife, Lorraine.
	They also call her Pete.
	And they're very, very gracious people.
	So, what I'll do is, let me play you some excerpts of a conversation with Walter that I had two days ago.
	All right.
	And the first conversation, the first question was, how did you end up at Roswell Army Airfield, and how did you become a public relations officer?
	All right.
	Well, to take you back a long way, out of high school I went to work for R. R. Donnelly & Sons Company.
	Stayed with them for a little while, and I worked for Western Electric.
	And then I went into the military.
	Came in an aviation cadet.
	Spent a year playing that game and got my commission.
	After my commission, I also went through navigation school during that period of time.
	Came to Roswell, New Mexico and went to bombardier school.
	After that, I was assigned to a crew and we did a lot of different things, getting ready to go overseas.
	Went overseas.
	I was on Saipan for almost a year.
	Flew 35 missions against Japan.
	I received a Distinguished Flying Cross, four Air Medals, Purple Heart.
	After that was over, I came back to the States and figured, well, the rest of my life will be spent nice and peacefully.
	I wasn't back in the States for about a couple of months, and I went back to Kwajalein.
	I dropped a blast gauge instrument into the atomic explosion on Able Day.
	Came back to Roswell, or rather, you know, came back to Roswell, liked it here, resigned my regular commission, and I've been here ever since.
	I was an insurance agent, a real estate broker, art dealer, just a little bit of everything.
	Had a lot of fun doing most of it and retired a number of years ago and just do what I want now.
	Now, after you came back to Roswell and worked at the base, what was your role there?
	Well, I was a bombardier and navigator by profession, but my additional duty, which is what I spent most of my time as, was public relations officer for the base.
	Now, how did you become a public relations officer?
	Did you happen to know the base commander, or what was the process by which you got that job?
	When we were on Kwajalein, I got a call to report to Colonel Blanchard.
	I went in to see him, and he said, Art, what do you know about public relations?
	I said, nothing, sir, and he said, well, learn.
	You're the public relations officer for the air attack unit.
	Trial by fire.
	Trial by fire.
	Well, Art, that gives you an idea of the quality of the people.
	Okay, John, what we need is a little more audio.
	Now, I had to boost that all the way up.
	Okay, I'll do that for you.
	But if you can give us more audio, it would be good.
	You betcha.
	Alright.
	But it shows you the quality of the people.
	Here's a person that was in Kwajalein, also served overseas, dropped test cages into atomic blasts.
	These people at Roswell are not dumb-dumbs by any means.
	They're very, very... No, and he was certainly not a professional PR guy.
	I was in the Air Force, John, and I laughed and laughed when I heard that, because that's exactly the way it's done.
	What do you know about PR?
	Well, nothing, sir.
	Well, find out, because you're the new PR officer.
	That's exactly how it works.
	Yeah, I didn't know that story until he told it that way.
	Let's talk about another aspect.
	Some people say that Walter might have gone off half-cocked and just put out this press release on his own, but I asked him about that.
	It's about his autonomy and what his ability was to do things like that and where he got the authorization to put that message out.
	Here's his response.
	In general, I could do just about anything I wanted.
	Colonel Blanchard had been a public relations officer when he got out of a point that was an additional duty that he had picked up and was very, very sympathetic to The duties of a populations officer.
	You had to play everything by ear.
	You didn't know what was going to happen, who downtown would be unhappy about something that some airman did, who wanted to put together a parade, I shouldn't say a parade, a float for the parade.
	A lot of speaking engagements in the surrounding area.
	Basically, it's pretty much a full-time job.
	The next question that really comes to mind is, Roswell was a special army base.
	I asked him about Roswell because, of course, it was the only base that had the atomic bomb back at the time.
	Here's what he talked about Roswell.
	Walter, the Roswell Army Airfield was a special type of base.
	Can you talk about what types of activities went on there back in 1947?
	There was a lot of training going on.
	Primarily, we were the only group capable of carrying and dropping an atomic weapon.
	In essence, we didn't do anything phenomenal other than practice and fly our missions and take care of the normal business.
	It was no different than any other group function.
	Just the fact that we were handling a little bit different type of armament.
	So these people are G.I.s, but they're certainly not average G.I.s, right?
	They're people that have a lot of capabilities and were trusted with the atomic bomb, the first people that were actually able to do that.
	Sure.
	So the next question was, I asked him, how did this whole thing happen?
	Tell the story from beginning to end, how the press release was issued and who told him to do that.
	Well, it was a very, very simple thing.
	I got a call from Colonel Blanchard, and I can't give you an exact time because I don't remember.
	It was somewhere probably between 10 and 10.30 in the morning.
	I went up to his office.
	I've been called up there.
	I think the base agent called me.
	And he, after I gave him a highball and all that, said, I've got Press release I want you to take to town and deliver to all the new media.
	Now did you write that or did he write that?
	Did he give you a draft?
	He gave me a draft of it.
	And I had to just fill in a few things.
	It was no great, fantastic thing.
	It was a very, very simple press release.
	Very short and to the point that here we are.
	That was it.
	I brought it to the, uh, local newspapers, the, uh, radio station and came home and had lunch.
	Went back to the base and the phones were ringing off the hook.
	I shouldn't say phones, the D-phone was ringing off the hook.
	I answered the telephone continually until, oh, I would guess it was around four, So it's kind of like a fairly mundane day for Walter, but there's a part that I don't get.
	In other words, Walter is just sort of going, ho-hum, you know, it's just another day.
	Here I had this press release about the Air Force captures a flying disc, and I just took it down there and came home and had lunch.
	It was no big deal.
	I mean, he must have known what he was delivering.
	Well, you know, I'm wondering where the people got so used to the fact that there were flying discs flying around.
	That's why I read some of the history, all the articles in the newspapers.
	People were seeing this stuff, and people had been trying to capture one.
	I figured, well, I captured one, and that's it.
	But the big question I've got, Art, and the thing that's always bothered me about the Roswell case is, If a flying saucer were downed at an air force base, would you go public and say we've captured one, or would you try and keep it under wraps?
	I still don't understand why Blanchard came out with that release.
	Uh, and he... Blanchard is actually the one who concocted the main body of that release.
	That's correct.
	Now, wait, Walter recalls that Blanchard had the main release finished, and Walter had it just prettied up and released it to the local newspapers, and also put it on the wire.
	I mean, but still, if you're carrying a release down to the local media saying we have captured a flying disc, it's amazing to me that he regarded that as such a ho-hum kind of thing.
	It might be ho-hum because he's told the story so many times.
	Maybe so.
	I mean, it's like carrying dynamite.
	Well, yes, go ahead.
	What were you going to say?
	Well, it's like carrying a lipstick of dynamite to me.
	But in retrospect, he describes it as, well, you know, I just took it down there and I handed it to him, went home and had some lunch.
	And then I was very surprised at the results.
	Exactly.
	Well, I wanted to find out whether he knew anything other than what he had written in the press release.
	And so here's the next question.
	Basically, were you privy to any other additional information or were in any private meetings to talk about this or see any exotic materials or bodies?
	Here's his response.
	I was not privy to any of that information, just the information that Blanchard gave me to put in a press release.
	So, did you ever see any debris or bodies associated with this particular incident?
	No sir, I did not.
	As a matter of fact, at the time, even with that press release, there was no mention of bodies to me.
	You know, one thing that people have talked about is If this was happening, wouldn't you see a lot of activity arriving, dignitaries, etc., etc.?
	So I asked Walter if he remembered anything that was really unusual, people flying in, flying out.
	Now, one thing he does say, and you'll hear it, is he doesn't recall any unusual activity, which I thought was a little bit odd, but certainly not necessarily inconsistent.
	Perhaps people were coming in and not telling the public relations person what's going on.
	Do you remember any increased activity at the time?
	For example, an unusual number of incoming or outgoing flights or dignitaries?
	Not really.
	To me, so many of those things happened on the flight line if people were coming in the town or flying in.
	That was done on the flight line and my office was quite a distance from it.
	If it was of any import, I was told about it, and I'd go out with the cameraman and we'd take pictures and do all those things.
	In essence, I didn't get a lot of that information.
	If they wanted to publicize it, they let me know, and if they wanted to keep it quiet, they didn't say anything to me.
	Do you remember anything happening over the next couple of days, this fall after the event, or did it pretty much end on that particular day?
	Well, I think the only thing that happened Beyond that was General Ramey putting out his press release to the effect that it was not a flying disc, it was a weather balloon.
	Now were you involved in that release at all?
	No sir, that came directly from him.
	So pretty much that ended Walter's involvement.
	The only thing that he's really done is tell the story about a few thousand times since that date.
	He's never changed the story.
	It's always been consistent, not the sign of a credible witness, in my opinion.
	Yeah, I agree with you.
	He sounds very sincere, very matter-of-fact, and it is hard to discern whether, in his telling now, it sounds so mundane, whether it was really that way then, or whether it's just in the retelling it has become mundane for him.
	Yeah, I totally agree.
	Judging by what people have said for their time at the base, it was very chaotic at the time, no matter what happened, so I think there were a lot of people that found it a lot more exciting, but apparently Walter did not afterwards.
	Well, there's another question that often comes to mind, and that is, I talk to intelligence officers about this, and they say when an event happens at a base, would you Sometimes they tend to transfer people out of the base so that people can't continue to tell the story or cooperate with each other.
	So I asked Walter whether there were any transfers out of the base, as you recall.
	Some witnesses have alleged that after the event, folks that were at the base who might have been a participant in the event were scattered to avoid having a lot of people at Roswell that remember the particular incident.
	Do you recall any large amount of transfers out of the base after July 47?
	No, I do not.
	If there were large numbers of them, I think I would have known about it.
	It might have stuck in my mind, but there were so many other things going on.
	I was running around in circles.
	But he also indicated that if something like this happened, it wouldn't always be related to him.
	And, uh, one other question I asked him.
	I said, the base was, uh, you know, there's a lot of secrecy on a base.
	Why would the base commander issue the press release to the world?
	Pretty much of a question we just asked a few moments ago.
	Uh, here's his answer.
	All right.
	I think, if you want my opinion, I think this was just, uh, part of a well-orchestrated plan.
	Civilians had seen this material.
	Military people had seen the material.
	What better way to cover it up than to have the local commander said, we've got a flying saucer in our possession.
	It was found on a ranch out here.
	And the next day, the general said, oh, they were wrong.
	That was not a flying saucer.
	That was a weather balloon, a new type of weather balloon.
	You got to take yourself back to 1947, a difference in Just about everything.
	When the commander said that this is what happened, that's what happened.
	You didn't say, oh, I don't think so or anything of the sort.
	That's right.
	You accepted it pretty much.
	You know, Art, I think you talked about it on your show several times that it's really amazing how the military has changed in the perception of the public.
	When a military commander would say something years ago, I think you also mentioned the FBI.
	You took it as gospel?
	Well, that's exactly right.
	Actually, in the military, you took it not just as gospel, as an order that you would follow, period.
	I mean, you were trained, the military trained you, John, to accept orders without question.
	Not to think about it.
	It wasn't your job to think, it was your job to do.
	If they told you to do something, and this would certainly apply to a PR officer, you do it.
	That's all.
	You do it.
	And maybe in that light, since he wasn't really a PR guy at heart, he was just following orders.
	That's all.
	Say, here, take this downtown.
	Okay.
	And he did.
	Came back and had lunch.
	So, you know, my sense of what I've just heard is that he was very much just innocent in this following orders.
	He seemed very sincere.
	That's right, and if you could argue that there's an inner circle, he was not part of the inner circle, he just was the guy that put out the initial word, which was eventually contradicted by General Ramey a few hours later.
	Well, indeed so, and I'll tell you what, let's break here.
	It is now the top of the hour, and when we come back, we will continue.
	We've got some audio clips you're just not going to believe, folks.
	My guest is John Kirby.
	From Portland, and we're going to kind of put a wrap tonight on this Roswell business, at least for this year.
	Coming up next, some audio clips you've probably never heard.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	tonight featuring a replay of coast to coast am from july 10th 1997
	so so
	so so
	All right, it's moving on Well, we gotta get right back to where we started from Love is good, love can be strong We gotta get right back to where we started from Do you remember that day?
	When you first came my way I said no one can take your place My guest is John Kirby, and we're kind of putting a wrap on Roswell with the actual voices from Roswell.
	and oracle of with
	the actual voices from rosswell water hot
	uh... who is a guy who actually delivered the press release to the
	newspaper and to the radio station in rosswell
	uh... was just heard from Coming up, you'll hear the Marcells, senior and junior, and more.
	There's quite a bit ahead, so stand by.
	Thanks for watching.
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	Now we take you back to the night of July 10th, 1997, on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	Coast2Coast.com You might want to make note, tomorrow night, Father Malachi Martin will be here.
	And an interesting note for you, at his age, what an incredibly active man, advisor to two popes, and virtually the real exorcist.
	And when we talked to the secretary, I think it was the day before yesterday, She said he's attending, doing an exorcism right now, and should be back shortly.
	Can you imagine that?
	At his age, still doing exorcisms.
	It is an incredible story, and if you have never heard Father Malachi Martin, you're not going to want to miss tomorrow night, believe me.
	And we're going to lay heavily on the phones for you.
	Uh, tomorrow night.
	Uh, back now to John Kirby in Portland.
	Uh, John, you're back on the air.
	Okay, Art.
	Hi.
	Where do we go from here?
	Well, the next witness I was going to talk about and, uh, have excerpts from is a gentleman named Frank Kaufman.
	Yes.
	Now, Frank is a person who claims to have been called to clean up the debris site, actually the impact site.
	Yes.
	Just north of Roswell.
	And he'll describe the bodies, et cetera, et cetera.
	I just want to talk about Frank a bit.
	I first met him back in 1994, and that was when Kevin Randall, Don Schmitz, and Phil Klass and several others and myself were down in Roswell with the CBS 48 Hours crew.
	And I also met him again when he was doing a Channel 4 special for Great Britain.
	Now, he normally doesn't do a lot of interviews, but he's done a couple and has done several in recent times.
	It's interesting because I happened to talk with him today because he said, John, take a look at the U.S.
	News and World Report for July 14th.
	And so I pulled it up and I'll just read you about three sentences, if you don't mind.
	Sure.
	Said the oddest witnesses of all is Kaufman, who claims he's still part of a secret military team that recovered the UFO in 1947, although he was discharged from the military in 1945.
	And despite what other magazines say, he's never substantiated his claim that he later worked at the Roswell base as a civilian.
	And he said, when I spoke with Coffin last year for MSNBC, I couldn't believe that this tail-spinning old coot was a leading witness in several books and TV shows.
	I haven't heard people called old coots for quite a while.
	So, I think Frank was probably less than pleased, but he asked me to tell a story that I'll tell now.
	When people look at Frank's military record, it suggests that he was discharged in 1945.
	That's actually the case.
	But, when I was down, he showed me documentation that he, in 1945, transferred from a military person.
	He was a NCO, a non-commissioned officer, IC in charge.
	Right.
	And I saw the paperwork that said he was transferred to become a member of S-1, which is Personnel and Statistical Team, a civilian, but still reporting into the military structure.
	That's actually very common, John.
	That's what I heard.
	Now, you can probably comment a lot more on that part, but I understand that there are cases where civilians still are associated with the military.
	Oh, absolutely.
	No, it's very common for people to retire or leave the military, become discharged, and take a civilian job doing virtually the same thing, but making a lot more money for the military.
	So, no, it's very common.
	So he couldn't tell me very much about it.
	He said that it primarily had to do with intelligence, and he and I have talked about some things that he did, but I'd rather not get into it right now, but it had to do with Kind of keeping a lid on the secrets of the base, because, in fact, at that time there was a lot of Soviet spies trying to get at our military secrets, especially the A-bomb.
	Sure.
	And so there was a huge staff, apparently, that were trying to protect the secrets, and rightfully so.
	So he was one of the members of that staff.
	So, once again, Frank claims that he went up to clean up the impact site.
	So let's talk to Frank, just on tape here.
	And the first thing I did was ask him about his background.
	Well, I was assigned to a special unit at Roswell Army Airfield in 1947.
	I was a civilian at the time.
	I was a civilian at the time.
	I got out from my military service in 1945 and then I was reinstated back into service
	only as a civilian doing the same assignment, same work.
	Wasn't that unusual to get reclassified as a civilian and still maintain your operations at the base?
	No, it was not.
	Because I was up for separation.
	To be discharged.
	I could have re-enlisted, but I chose not to, and so I remained as a civilian.
	as a civilian.
	But a different reporting structure in that particular case.
	Right.
	Generally, John, people are given GS ratings under those conditions.
	And they just continue basically doing the same kind of work.
	Yeah, that's what he claimed in the documentation that I saw.
	It makes me believe him hard.
	So, I still think he's a very good witness.
	Now, one of the things about Frank is he worked closely with Butch Blanchard,
	the base commander, and also Jesse Marcel.
	Now, these two people have been often criticized as not knowing enough to distinguish a weather balloon from a crash-flying disc.
	Yes.
	So I asked Frank what he thought of those people.
	Well, they were fine people.
	Very thorough.
	Particularly Jesse Marcel.
	Major, he was the base intelligence officer in the course.
	Blanchard was the base commander of the 509th.
	But they were very thorough people.
	Very experienced people.
	I think this is the important thing, John, that people understand.
	The 509th was a premier group charged with carrying the atomic bomb.
	The only one at that time.
	And we're talking about the base commander, we're talking about the intelligence officer, Major Marcel.
	These were non-trivial people who would certainly not be inclined to misidentify something so terribly as to say it is a In other words, they would know well the difference between
	a weather balloon and a flying saucer.
	You would certainly think so.
	Well, the way the story goes, Art, is Frank was at Roswell, but remember the articles
	I read at the beginning of the show, in case some people didn't get it?
	There was a lot of sightings about a week before the Roswell case all over the country.
	Yes.
	And it turns out that many of these sightings were going on near military bases.
	One was at White Sands, New Mexico.
	And so they asked Frank to go out and look at the radar at White Sands and report back to Roswell what he saw because there was apparently a very good radar station at White Sands.
	So I asked him what he was doing at White Sands and to tell the story.
	Well, yeah, the sightings or the blips on the radar actually was noted later part of June.
	Well, about mid-June and up till July.
	And it was in July that we were called from Roswell Army Field to White Sands to To view the Blitz, because we had radar, experienced radar people in, giving us a radar reading.
	Why were you personally selected to go to White Sands?
	Because I was part of this unit, special unit.
	And the mission of that special unit was what?
	Oh, doing investigative work and so on.
	You see, this base here, you know, is one of the hottest bases in the world.
	And you had the Northern Bombshite, you had the 509th, there was Los Alamos, and you had activities going on at White Sands and Holloman Air Force Base.
	So, we were involved in those security reasons, or security activities, I should say.
	Well, you can certainly say that White Sands and Roswell were key bases.
	Oh, of course.
	And so, what happened after that was he saw the blip disappear on the radar screen, which alerted people that a craft had possibly crashed.
	So, here's a continuation of the story.
	Well, this one particular night, there was a severe thunderstorm in this entire area.
	And we were in White Sands.
	uh... watching the radar screen and we noticed that the the radar screen just the blips got wider and wider and more pronounced and then the screen lit up and our radar man told us that he thought that possibly something went down he wasn't sure where but east of White Sands And of course, as you know, radar was limited in those days.
	I mean, it wasn't sophisticated as it was today.
	But he estimated something went down just east of White Sands.
	And then the radar screen just went back to normal.
	So we were ordered back to Roswell.
	And on our way back to Roswell, we were in constant radio communication.
	Well, People driving on U.S.
	Highway 285 North going South noticed this orange ball falling towards Earth.
	And it was common in those days to call the base and notify them that possibly a plane went down.
	That was a common practice during those days.
	And when we got back to Roswell, we were told that this The flame, or ball, was seen about 40-45 miles north of Roswell.
	And that's how we knew just where the impact site was.
	Well, we sent out the MPs first.
	Now this was a special unit of MPs.
	These fellas were highly trained.
	And they located the area for us.
	So when we got there, when we had these portable Yes.
	We noticed a craft embedded in an arroyo, a craft of unknown origin.
	We knew it wasn't a plane, it wasn't a balloon, it wasn't anything that we've seen before.
	So something was definitely crashed that was unusual.
	Now Art you just interviewed Colonel Corso.
	Yes.
	And one thing that's interesting is two years ago Frank told the story that Corso collaborated
	in his book.
	Corso indicated that when he analyzed the craft it looked like there was light amplification
	technology on it.
	Yes.
	Well, when I talk with Frank, unfortunately I don't have this on mic, but he'll tell other parts of the story.
	When I asked him whether he looked in the craft and could describe the craft, he said that he looked in momentarily and saw through the canopy of the craft as if it was daylight, even though it was nighttime outside, implying there was light amplification going through the canopy.
	And that's exactly what Corso reported as technology that was dispersed from the Roswell crash into industry.
	So I thought that was pretty interesting.
	Well, let's ask Frank what the craft was like, as best he can remember.
	Right.
	Can you describe the craft in as much detail as you remember, Frank?
	As much as I can remember, the craft was about, oh, maybe 24 feet in length,
	about 12, 14 feet in width, and approximately 6 feet in height.
	It wasn't round with a dome type.
	It was almost like a V shape, a little similar to a stealth bomber, in that order of design.
	There was a glow still around the craft itself, but it It, uh, it diminished quite rapidly by the time we got there, and one of the chemical boys, I imagine, they were examining it, I guess, for about 45 minutes, if I can remember, before we were allowed to get close to it.
	Did you have the opportunity to look inside the craft, and did you see anything?
	Well, very briefly, I got, uh, I looked inside, and I noted that there was One body was thrown up against the arroyo.
	One body was half in the craft, half out.
	It was spread at the seam.
	And then we, one of our people noticed that deterioration was setting in on the skin, so we ordered body bags and had them removed and sent to the base hospital.
	In Colonel Corso's book, he mentions that one of the creatures was shot.
	Do you agree with that?
	No.
	Corso wasn't there.
	So, no, I don't agree with that.
	Wasn't shot.
	Was shot.
	So, Colonel Corso's book, he took second-hand accounts, or first-hand accounts, and incorporated that into the book.
	And when I read that, I was very surprised.
	And so I went back and specifically asked Frank about that.
	But he claims that no creature was shot.
	They happened to be dead at the time.
	Nevertheless, there it is.
	Eyewitness testimony of bodies inside.
	Wow.
	That's pretty remarkable.
	Now, Art, you know, you've talked to Ray Santilli in the past.
	Yes.
	You've talked to people that have looked at the Ray Santilli film.
	Sure.
	So, an obvious question was, did the creatures look anything like the creatures in the Santilli film?
	Exactly.
	So, here's a short answer from Frank about that.
	Have you had the opportunity to look at the old alien autopsy film which showed control panels with hand indentations?
	Right, you mean the Santelli films?
	Yes, that's correct.
	Yeah, that's a hoax.
	Okay, so you did not see any control panels inside the craft that looked like the things in- Nothing like that, no.
	Nothing like that, but... These were good-looking people, uh, John, uh, they... I would say they're probably 5'3", 5'4", in height.
	I've seen sketches that Frank has drawn with the assistance of other people.
	I have seen sketches that Frank has drawn with the assistance of other people.
	You've seen pictures of the greys.
	In popular magazines.
	Sure.
	The pictures that were sketched by Frank look much more normal.
	The head, larger than normal.
	But the eyes, nowhere near as large as the large eyes you typically see.
	Well, he used the word people.
	Is that a misnomer?
	Well, he always called them little people.
	Little people.
	Implying that, his famous line is, they weren't from Texas.
	And so, he clearly says that they weren't of this earth.
	But he describes them as almost like small people.
	He said they didn't look that much different than ourselves.
	You know, in a sense, we're the big heads of the typical creatures you see in the literature, but they said they were a lot different, nevertheless.
	So, that's basically the end of Frank Coffman's testimony, but other things, we can move on to Jesse Marcel when you want to do that.
	All right, we'll do that after the bottom there.
	Ah, the little people.
	But definitely, again, and this is an important point, not of this earth.
	A good look, I guess you would use the word people naturally.
	Right.
	He made it clear that it was not of the surf.
	That's what he told me.
	The other interesting thing was, an orange ball, I've not heard it described that way before, falling, and then his description of the craft itself as glowing after it hit the ground.
	Exactly.
	That's how he said he found the craft.
	He indicated that people reported the craft was down.
	They knew by radar generally where it went down.
	They thought it was on Highway 285 north of town.
	No witnesses saw parachutes or anything?
	No, absolutely, and in fact, I would doubt they would do parachuting at 1130 at night.
	Well, again, I keep thinking of the Air Force explanation, and these were good-looking people.
	All right, I saw the dummies, the crash dummies the Air Force showed.
	Uh, I would not describe them as good-looking people.
	Moreover, uh, they were fully, uh, at least six feet, uh, tall, I would say.
	They were as tall as the, uh, Air Force officers that were sort of jokingly, uh, saying, here we are, buddies with the, the crash dummies.
	Is that your take?
	Uh, yeah.
	These, from what Frank described, they're much different.
	They're smaller.
	The dummies I did see in the Air Force report were full-size, and so you could not explain the sizes.
	Alright, coming up, audio from Jesse Marcel Jr.
	and a very, very rare clip of a discussion between Jesse Marcel Jr.
	and Jesse Marcel Sr.
	This is one you've probably never, never heard before, as much as what you've already heard is.
	So, um, we'll be back in just a moment.
	John Kirby is my guest.
	You're listening to Art Bell's Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 10th, 1997.
	This is a presentation of the Coast to Coast AM concert series.
	John Kirby is my guest.
	With live, well not live, but with actual clips from older people who were actually at Roswell.
	Coming up, the Marcells, both junior and senior.
	And a lot of this you will never have heard.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 10th, 1997.
	Back now to Portland and John Kirby and coming up the Marcells show.
	John?
	That's right, Art.
	Let me just set the stage for a moment.
	When the crash occurred, Jesse Marcel Sr., a Major, went up to retrieve the debris and brought that back to the Roswell Base.
	But on the way back, he stopped and showed it to his wife and his son.
	And so, although Jesse Marcel Sr., the Major, has passed away, Jesse Marcel Jr., the son who looked at the debris and handled it, is still alive.
	There's been a lot of claims over the last couple of years that this thing was really a mogul balloon, or it was, per the Air Force report, dummies.
	And so I specifically talked to Jesse about what he thought, in terms of this being mogul, or this being actually something that was more exotic than that.
	So, we can hear some of his comments.
	First of all, I asked him what his background was, what he was doing in 1947, and what he's
	doing right now.
	Oh, here we go, sorry.
	Well, in the 1940s I was going to school at Roswell, I think it was the St.
	Peter's School near Roswell.
	Great school.
	And of course my dad was the Air Force Intelligence Officer at the Roswell Army Air Field.
	And today you're a physician.
	Right.
	I have a practice of medicine, actually specializing in ear, nose, and throat disease here in You were down in Roswell for the 50th anniversary celebration.
	What were your thoughts about that?
	Well, we just got back today, as a matter of fact.
	It was quite a carnival atmosphere, which was good for the Roswell Chamber of Commerce.
	Great comment, because it was good for the Roswell Chamber of Commerce.
	I think you've heard some of the stories.
	The big thing is, what did he do back in 1947?
	to tell the story as best he could about what happened when his dad brought the debris home.
	So this is what he told me.
	Well, you know, as you know, my dad was a base intelligence officer, and as such, it was his job to investigate unusual events, you know, aircraft accidents, things of this nature.
	And it wasn't too unusual for him to be in the house for a period of time.
	And that night in particular, I remember he Can you describe what you saw?
	He was very excited because he was out to recover some debris from the desert out of
	Roswell and he thought this was unusual enough that he wanted us to see it.
	So he came in and woke us up.
	I think he said something like a word like flying saucer.
	I'm not sure about that but I think that was the meaning he was giving to us.
	Can you describe what you saw?
	I got up in the kitchen and there was a lot of debris on the floor and there was some
	metal foils, some metal structural members like I-beams and some black plastic like bake
	light at that time.
	And I do remember the first thing he wanted us to do was to look for any electronic components such as vacuum tubes or resistors, condensers, but there wasn't anything like that.
	How much debris did you see?
	Well, it was meant to cover an 8 by 10 foot floor.
	And I think there's still more in the car that he had not brought in.
	It's obvious a lot of debris, Art.
	An 8 by 10 foot floor, that is a lot of debris to have hauled home.
	In fact, they brought it back in an old car.
	I think they had a car and perhaps a truck, but I think Jesse Sr.
	was driving a car.
	So as you heard, Jesse Jr.
	said that he thought more debris was still outside in the car.
	So it wasn't a trivial amount of stuff.
	So one of the questions is, what was the debris like?
	Is it similar to a mogul balloon?
	Could you bend it?
	What did it seem like?
	And so this is what his answer was to that.
	I handled it.
	I picked it up.
	But I didn't try to bend it or stress it in any way.
	I just handled it and just looked at it.
	And to me, it just looked like some foil-like material, but not reinforced foil with paper or any other backing, but just the plain foil.
	Was it flexible at all, as far as you could tell?
	You know, I think it would have been had I tried to bend it.
	It looked like it would have been.
	Now, you also saw what looked like eye beams.
	Can you describe those?
	Well, that was the most peculiar part of this whole thing.
	There were some metal eye beams.
	They're a quarter of an inch or three-eighths of an inch in width and about 12 to 18 inches long.
	And when you look at the inner surface with the light over your left shoulder, it looked like there was some form of writing along the inner surface of that.
	It was kind of a purple, violet, metallic hue.
	My first impression was some sort of hieroglyphic type symbols, but looking at it at close
	up, they weren't really hieroglyphics, but just like hieroglyphics.
	The strange thing about this art is a recent report suggested that if this really was a
	mogul balloon, when they looked back at some of the mogul debris or mogul structure, there
	was tape on it, which had some flowers.
	Now, why in the world they would put flowery tape on a mogul device back in 1947, I'm not
	sure, but they said that perhaps what happened was this tape had flowers on it.
	It was laying in the moist air, and so the flowers blended through the tape and actually
	became embedded on the material.
	And so he was looking at material that looked like it was embossed, but it was really not.
	So I asked Jesse what he really thought about that possibility.
	I don't think it was anything like that.
	When I went down to Roswell, I went by Socorro, New Mexico, to talk to Professor Moore, who was one of the Project People's own moguls.
	And he was kind enough to bring a radar target from a mogul to my motel room, where I examined it.
	And I questioned very specifically about the tape with the flowers or whatever was on it.
	And what he described was far different from what I saw.
	The tape where these flowers were imprinted were much too wide, maybe an inch or more
	wide whereas the figures I saw were much smaller than that, like a quarter of an inch.
	And I don't think these were rubbed off on the inside surface of that metal beam either.
	Now were these silver covered beams or were they more of a balsa wood type?
	Well, they were light like balsa wood but I don't recall them, I recall them as being
	metal.
	You know I built a lot of balsa wood projects, you know stick models at that time, so I think
	I would recognize balsa wood but my impression was metal, not balsa wood.
	So what are the other things that they claimed in terms of the Mogul balloon?
	Mogul, if I understand correctly, had, it was a balloon with rubber on the interior with a silver coating.
	Right.
	You know, that could explain why it might have been resilient.
	You could squeeze it and it would pop back.
	So I asked Jesse Marcel, Jr.
	about that.
	One of the unique things about the mogul balloon construction, as I recall, is it was foil on rubberized backing, which might have given it some strange resilient characteristics.
	Did it look anything like that, as far as you can recall?
	Well, you know, I asked Dr. Moore about the foil, because the foil I saw was not backed or reinforced in any way, shape, or form.
	You know, the foil he showed me with the current, with that mogul target that he had there, was paperbacked.
	And he did say that the foil was paperbacked, There was other foil that was not paperback, but it did have some sort of structural rigidity to it.
	But the foil I saw did not have anything like that.
	No reinforcement at all.
	A while back there was a film released from Ray Santilli showing wreckage from the Roswell car, supposedly.
	Did the wreckage that you saw look anything like the wreckage shown in the footage?
	No, I can't say it did at all.
	You know, there's no comparison.
	The I-beams they showed in the film was much too big.
	And the letters look different, too.
	So I think that's pretty conclusive.
	You know, he went out and talked to Dr. Moore, who was the one in charge of Mogul, and looked at some of the old Mogul debris, and it did not look anything like the old Mogul debris that they compared it to.
	So I think that's a pretty compelling argument.
	Okay, that may have been a lower audio level, but I was kind of losing audio there toward the end.
	Okay, I'm sorry.
	I'll try and keep that up.
	Alright.
	Now the other question was, were these really looking like flowers, or what did the hieroglyphics look like?
	Because you've seen the Santilli film, and they look like they were actually Anglo characters, and so this is what Jesse Jr.
	said about that.
	Alright.
	Can you describe any of the characters in more detail?
	I think you mentioned flowers.
	Were there geometrical shapes as well?
	Yeah, I didn't see flowers.
	These were more like geometric shapes like truncated pyramids.
	The one I remember in particular looked like a ball on top of a pyramid that was truncated so I could feel balancing a ball on its nose.
	That's the reason I recall that one.
	Art, it seems like there are so many people saying they were sworn to secrecy.
	I asked him what happened afterwards because if you remember the Roswell movie perhaps It indicated that he had saved a piece of debris and his dad, Jesse Marcel Sr., came back and said, I need that debris back.
	And so I asked him what really happened and whether he talked about it afterwards and whether he was told not to talk about it.
	Right.
	Well, what happened is that night, you know, we packed the debris back up and put it in the car and he drove off.
	And I didn't see him for a while.
	Maybe not the next day or maybe the day after that, I'm not sure.
	How does this affect your dad's career?
	It was quite clear that we were not to talk about this any longer.
	Now in the Roswell film it showed that you had a piece of debris which you had to give
	back.
	Is that true?
	Not true.
	I certainly didn't keep any of it.
	So once again the license in a movie is a little bit different than reality.
	Sure.
	Now one thing I asked him, Art, was a final question.
	How does this affect your dad's career?
	It seems like if somebody were to make a major error identifying a weather balloon as a flying
	saucer who attended a Carther career.
	Sure.
	Can I ask him what happened afterwards to his dad?
	Here's what he said.
	How do you think that affected your dad and affected your dad's career?
	Well, you know, I don't think it affected him or his career very much, you know.
	As far as not being able to tell the difference between a radar balloon and a flying saucer, he did have training in radar school, which I'm sure he recognized the different types of radar targets, the rolling targets for Sure, which is what the mobile balloon carried.
	So he did not confuse what he saw with a radar target.
	And I can tell you right now, what I saw was not a radar target either, because I know enough about that to tell that.
	But as far as causing problems for his career, it did not cause any problems for the career, because actually he was promoted a short time after that.
	Did he ever give you any more details about the crash or the debris afterwards?
	Oh, years later, we briefly discussed it, and that's after he had come back from a trip out there to one of the stations there in New Orleans.
	And I asked him, was there any debris left?
	He said, no, they vacuumed the whole head up, as you know.
	And we briefly described what we recall seeing as what the metal looked like, the beams, and what the lighting looked like, and it all kind of coincided with what we recall.
	So that's Jesse Marcel Jr.' 's story, Art.
	I think it's really interesting to talk to a first-hand witness and to see what they think about some of the Air Force reports that are going out now.
	It looks like it's definitely not a mogul moment, at least in the opinion of Jesse Jr.
	All right.
	Now, you've got a very historic piece of tape, I know, that you somehow got from Jesse Marcel Jr., a conversation between Jr.
	and Sr.
	That's correct.
	Now passed on.
	Do you have that?
	I've got it ready to go.
	In fact, you heard him say at the end of that statement that his dad only talked about it several years later when he went back to Roswell.
	Right.
	It's curious.
	I don't know why, but after Jesse Sr.
	got back from Roswell, he called his son.
	Normally, a parent would not record a telephone conversation to his son.
	Absolutely.
	In this case, he did.
	And he stuck the tape in some personal materials and he put it up in the attic of Jesse Jr.' 's home.
	And so after he died, Jesse went back and looked through some of the materials and found this tape and said, that's really odd.
	Why did my father leave this?
	And so he played the tape.
	It's a long tape.
	I've cut it down to only a couple of minutes.
	And it talks about his return to Roswell and what he thought of it.
	It's difficult to hear all the information, but we'll give it a try for about a minute or so, but he's talking about coming back and feeling tired because he was with a film crew all day, and there were high winds, and so it caused some problems with the filming.
	They visited their old house in Roswell, both inside and outside, and people took them back in the house again.
	They looked at the floor where the debris was spread out, and no debris was there anymore because it was vacuum-cleaned.
	So, let's listen to about a minute or so of this.
	Alright, let's give it a try.
	Well, finally got back home.
	How was your trip to Roswell?
	Rough.
	Oh, man, tiring.
	I'm happy to be back home, I guarantee you.
	Yeah.
	It's quite an ordeal.
	Yeah, but it's three days of it.
	And besides, the second day I spent all day looking for that ranch where we found the stuff.
	Uh-huh.
	We finally located it.
	It was too late to take pictures, so we had to drive all the way back into Roswell.
	Uh-huh.
	And the next morning we took off and went out there, and they got their pictures, but the only thing, we ran into high winds.
	Yeah, that's what weather would say.
	We did find a place, they got the pictures.
	Of course, they couldn't take any sound there because, uh, too much wind for the microphones.
	Uh-huh.
	So now, they're gonna have to come back next week over here, and they'll have to belt the sound there.
	Yeah, I like to do that easier.
	So, the thing went okay.
	It's so tiring, though.
	I'll tell you, I got fed up with this.
	Get some rest.
	But I'll tell you what I did.
	I got a chance to visit 1300 West 7th.
	Not only externally, but internally.
	I met the people who lived there.
	I even got my pictures made up there.
	They even took pictures of the floor.
	Well, you get the feel, Art.
	He was back there for the first time, went back to his old house.
	It's surprising that after all the years he did not say anything about it to Jesse Jr.
	until that particular call about 25 years later.
	It's even more interesting that he would choose to record it.
	Why in the world would he record a conversation like that with his son?
	Unless he intended to leave a marker.
	I think that's the case.
	Why would you do it other than think it might be an historic tape that your son would want after you died?
	So I was very happy that Jesse Marcel let me take this tape and play it on here because it had a lot of personal things on there because at the time Jesse Marcel Jr.' 's wife had died.
	So his father was very compassionate, consoling him for that.
	So obviously those excerpts aren't on the tape that you heard, but it shows what a fine man Mr. Marcel Sr.
	was.
	Yes.
	Yes, that's really something, John.
	And I'm sitting here contemplating Any possible explanation for the taping of that conversation, other than as a historical marker?
	A father who knew what was going to be ahead for his son, even then.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	I totally agree.
	Well, I've got two more short things for you, Art, if you're interested.
	Okay, if they are short.
	These are real short, about 52 seconds and then 44 seconds.
	Go.
	Probably should wrap it up.
	Go.
	Good.
	One is Major Edwin Easley having a conversation with Kevin Randall.
	I had permission to put this on the air.
	Now, Easley was the provost marshal.
	He's the top cop of the 509th Bomb Group.
	Yes, sir.
	Kevin Randall called him and asked him about this situation, and you're going to hear Easley say he was sworn to secrecy.
	I cannot talk about it.
	All right, go ahead.
	I understand you were the provost marshal at one time.
	At what?
	At the 509th.
	Yes.
	During July of 1947?
	Yes.
	Pardon me?
	Yes.
	You're aware of the incident that took place there in July of 47?
	The alleged crash of a flying saucer?
	I've heard about it.
	Do you have any first-hand knowledge of it?
	Do what?
	Do you have any first-hand knowledge of the incident?
	I can't talk about it.
	Then you do have some first-hand knowledge?
	I can't talk about it.
	Can you tell me If you were at the crash site.
	I can't talk about it, I'm ready to go.
	Yes sir, I understand.
	I'm not going to talk about it.
	Yes, it was a cover story.
	I heard it, Art. He said, I've been sworn to secrecy. I can't talk about it. I can't talk about it.
	I heard it, yes. It was weak, but I heard it.
	All right. You've got one more, very quickly.
	I've got one more, 44 seconds. This is Thomas Dubot, who is the chief of staff of the 8th Air Force.
	He's reported to General Ramey, and he was asked about the balloon being a cover story.
	Yes.
	And here's what he said.
	It was a picture of a cover story. The balloon part of it was a rumor that were taken from this location.
	I've got the phone number.
	That part of it was in fact the story that we were told to give to the public in the news and that was it.
	So just to repeat, he said this was a cover story, the balloon part of it, the remnants that were taken to this location, That part of it was, in fact, the cover story we were told to give to the public and the news, and that was it.
	That was the direction we were told.
	There was no question about it.
	We were told this was the story to be given to the press, and that's it, and anything else to forget about it.
	So, very, very interesting.
	John, after all of this and all of the investigation you've done with Kevin Randall, what do you conclude?
	You know, Art, I think if you took it to a court, a criminal court, where you said, beyond all reasonable doubt, I don't think you'd get a conviction and say that this thing was really a craft of extraterrestrial origin.
	But if you were to look at the preponderance of evidence, it means that it was kind of tipped ever so slightly.
	I think there's a compelling case to say that it very well could have been, but I won't be convinced until I actually see a piece of it or see the government announce it.
	But it's so compelling that I'm still investigating it after all these years.
	Well, it was certainly good to hear from the principals, and, uh, the fact of the matter is, uh, because of their age, they're not going to be around that much longer, uh, those who were actually there.
	Uh, those like Colonel Corso, who I interviewed, and, um, of course many are already gone.
	So, John, I want to thank you for bringing all of this to us this morning.
	It's kind of an appropriate wrap to the whole Roswell thing, uh, for the 50th anniversary.
	You're very welcome, Mark.
	Nice to be here.
	John, thank you, and good night.
	That's John Kirby in Portland.
	And there it is, folks.
	Kind of a wrap on Roswell.
	And you heard from the principals involved.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	tonight featuring a replay of poster coast a m from july tenth nineteen ninety
	seven the
	the the
	the the
	Good morning everybody.
	Great to be here.
	John Kirby has been on for the last two hours with some audio clips many never heard before of the principles involved in the whole Roswell business.
	And from Tim in Lakeville, Minnesota, Art, please.
	Have those audio clips made available on your webpage via AudioNet.
	They were astounding.
	Please get permission and put them up for all the world to hear.
	That's something we can work on and something my webmaster, Keith, probably can do.
	So we'll make that request right now, some of the more dramatic audio clips.
	Keith, if you can get them up there in some sort of format for people to archive, that would be wonderful.
	And I want to advise everybody of an experiment going on on the website right now.
	It is probable, or likely, that Monday we will cover the final two hours of the big meeting in Phoenix with Richard Hoagland and company that will occur this Monday.
	And we plan to try something quite revolutionary.
	In addition to getting audio, if it works, this is all a big if.
	If it works, and the audio is good, we'll be in a sort of a two-way conversation with those down in Phoenix on Monday, Richard Hoagland and company, and it's going to be quite an event, and it is also going to be an event on the Internet in the sense that we are going to have a camera, uh...
	at the events and we are going to do a split screen if you've ever been up and
	seen the studio cam that i've got there now you can actually see me doing the
	program the show uh... work instead of just having one photograph up there
	that cycles through uh... we're going to have to
	and uh... one of them is going to be from the event going on in phoenix
	and the other will be of me And so you will actually not only get to hear both sides, but you'll get to see both sides.
	And so Keith has experimentally, Keith Rowland, my webmaster, has been experimentally putting split screens up, and we've got a split screen up there right now.
	It's simply experimental, but I would ask everybody to go take a look and see if it looks okay to you.
	And then coming Monday would be, on the left, would be me, with this side of the broadcast.
	And then on the other side, you would see Phoenix live, and what's going on there, as you listen to the entire event on the radio.
	Now, we're endeavoring to do an awful lot of technological stuff here at once, and there's no guarantee it's going to work.
	I'll tell you that right off, but we're going to try.
	And we've got a test up there on the site right now of this split-screen technology.
	So, go take a look and see what you think.
	See if you think it will work out alright.
	Go to www.artbell.com And then when you get there, simply go down, scroll down until you get to StudioCam or whatever it is that it says.
	I believe StudioCam right now.
	Click on that and take a look and fax me or email me and let me know what you think.
	That's what we're going to try to do with the big conference going on down in Phoenix on Monday.
	That'll be the first two hours of the program.
	So let me know what you think.
	Boy, I'll tell you, always out on the cut edge of everything.
	Okay, so you've got Streamlink, our Apple iPhone app, the Daily Kosone free email newsletter,
	but don't forget the After Dark magazine.
	Every month you can read editorials from me, George Norrie, interviews you don't hear on the air, articles on the internet, and news stories not covered by the mainstream.
	Simply subscribe now and cover all of your Coast to Coast AM bases.
	call 1-888-261-6392, 1-888-261-6392, or subscribe online at coasttocoastam.com.
	Call 1-888-261-6392.
	Now we take you back to the night of July 10th, 1997, on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	Here's what's next!
	Well, I think we are going to do what nobody has ever done before.
	Going where nobody has ever gone before.
	Assuming that everything comes together, technically, and you know what happens when you assume Monday night it should be possible for those of you with a computer for example to listen on real audio or to your local affiliate on your computer as you see a split screen with live photographs coming from me here in Nevada in the desert and from the event going on in Phoenix Arizona
	Side-by-side with the audio streaming from your computer.
	It will be a first, I do believe.
	It really should be something.
	So if you want to take a look, go on up there now and take a look and let me know what you think.
	We've got an experimental split screen up there right now.
	I am getting persistent reports of UFO sightings near Atlanta.
	Uh, Mr. Bell, I am an independent UFO researcher living in Atlanta, and I'm contacting you to inform you about the incredible rash of sightings in our state, particularly the city of LaGrange, which is about an hour and a half south of Atlanta.
	There have been documented instances of landings, low fly-by sightings of crafts about 30 feet off the ground, and many other such occurrences.
	I thought you might want to mention this on the air so people in that community would be encouraged to call your show and share some of what's going on with the rest of the nation.
	Indeed, I would very much like to hear from people in that area.
	This is about the second or third night that I've been receiving these kinds of reports.
	What's going on in Georgia?
	Rolling over some of the rest of the news, Joe Camel is being put out to pasture by the tobacco companies.
	The most startling news of the day from the CDC.
	Sorrowfully, not surprisingly, the CDC has confirmed the first case of transmission of HIV by kissing.
	CDC says they've confirmed it.
	The man's saliva was contaminated because his gums bled after he brushed and flossed his teeth.
	The CDC says interviews with the couple indicate they always had used latex condoms during intercourse.
	And they had ruled out any other possible path of HIV transmission.
	So... My, my, my...
	What was laughed at and scoffed at years ago, now, as usual, turns out to be true.
	Oh, you can't, you can't pass AIDS, not with, not with a kiss.
	Well, unfortunately, yes you can.
	I watched, as I have on a daily basis, the Mars, uh, NASA News Conference.
	It was at 12.30 Pacific today, yesterday now.
	It'll be at 12 o'clock today.
	CNN covers it every day.
	And it was pretty interesting.
	The Pathfinder tangled with a rock and had what they called a first, uh, the first fender bender on Mars.
	And indeed, uh, the rock yogi, uh, sat right there and our little friend Sojourner, uh, came up and just about began to climb it.
	It's quite a little affair they've got going on on Mars, and again, as you well know, I disagree with Richard on this, and I believe we are firmly on Mars, and we'll get to hear from Richard, I'm sure, soon, and we'll see what he concludes about everything that is going on.
	But it is remarkable.
	The news conferences are absolutely remarkable.
	The picture's increasingly remarkable, and tomorrow, We should have a 360 degree panorama in full color.
	That should be something to see.
	Tomorrow night, Father Malachi Martin is on.
	And if you have never heard Malachi, you're going to want to do that.
	He's really something.
	For now, to the phones.
	Open lines, unscreened, whatever you want to talk about, fair game.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi, Art, how are you?
	I'm fine.
	Turn your radio off, please.
	Okay, it's off.
	Hey, I can't believe I'm through to you.
	Yes.
	I was wondering if you got my book I sent to you.
	I sent you a book right around Christmas time from Ohio, Big Footprints by Grover Krantz.
	I believe so, yes.
	What did you think?
	Did you get a chance to skim through it?
	I did, and yes, it was very interesting, as a matter of fact.
	Well, I really enjoyed that book because it was written from the scientific point of view.
	And even from a scientific point of view, he came out in favor of the creature's existence.
	Right.
	It was fascinating and well done.
	Yeah, I enjoyed especially the one passage when he talks about the footprints and that if you believe it's a hoax, you'd almost have to believe in a worldwide conspiracy laying down footprints over the past century.
	In other words, who's funding this organization and how they've been able to keep it secret for so long.
	Yes.
	And I was wondering if you might possibly be able to get that guy on the radio?
	Well, I'll see what I can do.
	It's very difficult trying to get people when you don't have contact information.
	I'm sorry, I'm from Ohio and I work out here in Washington, but I don't know the guy, so I couldn't give you no information on how to get a hold of him.
	Well, listen, I heartily appreciate you having sent it.
	Thank you.
	I will do what I can, and let me take a moment to say this.
	If you have a suggestion for a guest, by all means, if you have any way, publishers' names, phone numbers, addresses, any way I can get hold of the person that you want to get on the air, it is very helpful.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Yes.
	This is Tim in Phoenix.
	Hi.
	The reason I was calling, did I hear you earlier, you said Hoagland didn't believe we were on Mars?
	That's right.
	Okay, my theory is this, if, okay, if he didn't think we were there, would not, okay, some of the people didn't like us, like Russia or some of these other countries, would check to see if our signals weren't coming from Mars, you know, from the location we said we're at, and then come back and say, hey, you're lying.
	And, you know, just try to make a, you know... I think the case is profoundly strong that we are on Mars.
	Period.
	I do too.
	And I believe that Richard will come to that conclusion himself, given time.
	But I could be wrong.
	And that'll be tomorrow he'll be down here?
	No, Monday.
	Monday?
	Monday.
	Okay.
	Alright.
	I'll be listening.
	Thanks Alex.
	Yeah, it'll make it interesting.
	Richard and I have a schism in this area.
	Oh, but that's okay.
	I mean, this is what disagreements are about.
	And it may well be that Richard will rethink it.
	It may be that he is rethinking it now.
	I don't know.
	Or maybe he is going to maintain it.
	We'll find out.
	Monday.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Oh, Art.
	Yes.
	This is Jim in Louisiana.
	Hi, Jim.
	Yeah.
	I know you travel a lot, Art.
	I wanted to ask you a question.
	I was in Walmart the other day, and they have one of those little things for like, for sea sickness or whatever it is?
	Yes.
	It's a little thing that, I don't know, you know more about this than me, but something you put on your wrist, like a tight little band, and what would that do?
	Well, it's kind of like a nicotine patch, uh, and it simply, um... Yeah, but it says drug-free and all that.
	Yeah, I'm sure it's some sort of natural potion.
	Um... No, I mean, the way it looked like it just put pressure on your, uh, on your, on your... Oh!
	Yeah, it was a pressure thing.
	It had nothing to do with any kind of... Okay, I don't know.
	I tell you, the traveling I've done, I get seasick too.
	But the cruises that we go on, these are great big traveling cities.
	Right.
	And generally, even in fairly rough seas, they have stabilizers.
	And they don't rock and roll.
	Okay, one other thing.
	Uh, yeah, I think that Malachi Martin, your first interview with him was the best one I've ever heard of.
	Just riveting.
	Very good, yes.
	Would you ever consider going on an exorcism with him if he asked you?
	Um, I don't think he would ask me.
	I wouldn't expect him.
	Yeah, I know, but just hypothetical.
	Would I do it?
	Yes, I would do it, but I would not expect to be asked.
	It'd be kind of scary, though, wouldn't it?
	Um, it would be very scary.
	Okay, all right, you take care.
	Would you go?
	Not a chance.
	Not a chance, huh?
	All right.
	Thank you.
	All we need is a possessed talk show host.
	I mean, maybe I'll ask Malachi about that.
	I wonder if people are ever allowed into exorcisms.
	My guess would be no, that they're probably not.
	I would think it would be something they just simply wouldn't do.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Well, good morning.
	I'm calling from Anchorage.
	Anchorage, Alaska.
	Yes, sir.
	Yeah, this Richard Hoagland, he's talking about this Mars thing being a hoax.
	Yes.
	Why is it that he never addressed the moon hoax?
	Or has he?
	Well, it is a fair question.
	Has he commented on why the footprints and all the tracks and everything are all Clearly, clearly seen.
	I mean, they're, they're... Many times, sir.
	You have asked them that?
	Oh, many times.
	Which is the answer for that?
	Um, that the sand, uh, is very fine, and is displaced by the pressure, and so the tracks remain in the, uh, in the granule.
	It's very fine granule, uh, material.
	Does that sound reasonable to you?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Has he addressed NASA mooned America?
	Well, I think that Richard Hoagland, in his own way, thinks that NASA mooned America.
	No, he doesn't, because he was talking with Ed Mitchell there, and they were all jamming it up.
	Yeah, you were over there, but this is this big old building, this glass building that you can't see, is over here.
	Well, that's what I just said, sir, that in his own way, he thinks that NASA Moon America, because while he thinks we did go to the moon, he believes that there were things there that were not reported on.
	Well, I'd like to see him address what was reported on in NASA Moon America to some of those, not some of them, but There's some substantial points that need to be addressed.
	Do you believe we did not go to the moon?
	After reading that book, I'm convinced.
	Are you convinced that we are now not on Mars?
	If we didn't go to the moon, probably we're not on Mars.
	Well, you are absolutely entitled to your opinion, and I absolutely disagree with you.
	I think we did go to the moon, and I think we are on Mars.
	Period.
	And that puts me in a separate camp from a lot of people, but I do not jump to the first conspiracy as the most likely explanation.
	I think that there is substantial evidence that we went to the moon, and certainly is substantial evidence that we are presently on Mars.
	West of the Rockies?
	You're on the air, hi.
	Good morning, Gerard.
	Good morning.
	Fritz from Phoenix.
	Hi, Fritz.
	What a week.
	First, we had the Mars landing.
	Then we had the Roswell celebration, and you had Phil Corsa on Sunday night.
	It made my week.
	Well, that was really something, huh?
	I mean, that was just falling into place, and it's going to stay in the mainstream.
	Now, I had a quick, briefly, conversation with William Burns, and I asked him, what are the chances to have this book made in a television special and his
	reply was a hundred percent this will be a motion picture
	really phil corsa will have a motion picture and let me tell you those guys
	in the bennigan must be scrambling right now because there's more stuff coming out than you can you and
	i can imagine the only thing that concerns me fritz is that when they do a
	movie uh... they take dramatic license too frequently
	Oh, yes.
	We're going to see the crash and all this, but we realize it's going to be a world release.
	It's going to turn on millions of people.
	Oh, yes.
	It's going to be, yes, Hollywood will make a movie, but it's exposure.
	That's what the name of the game is.
	Get the people in the knowing.
	And by Bill Burns saying, William Burns saying that this will come out in a motion picture.
	I mean, it's going to be fantastic.
	I mean, it's going to be a good movie.
	And like I say, had I been next to Carl, I would have hacked the guy.
	I mean, he's 82 years old and he's coming clean.
	And I hope there can be more guys like him coming out.
	Try to get that program repeated in a different time slot.
	Oh, yeah.
	It has to be a must because it's a classic.
	It is a classic.
	I agree.
	Thank you, Fritz.
	Take care.
	Take care.
	And I may not be successful, so what I would advise my audience is it was an historic broadcast on Sunday, this last Sunday.
	Truly historic.
	And you should get a copy of it.
	And you can do so, and I mean really historic.
	This is a program everybody should have a copy of.
	You can get it by calling 1-800-917-4278.
	And you want to request the Dreamland interview with Colonel Philip Corso this past Sunday.
	The number again is 1-800-917-4277.
	And by the way, for those of you who would like a copy of The Quickening, um, I've got... That isn't what I want to use for music.
	What happened there?
	Um, I've got, uh, there are a few copies available if you would like to, uh, jump and get one.
	You will not get an autographed edition, but soon, uh, your ability to get the book at all is going to be gone for a while because it's going to go into, uh, General release in late August or early September.
	I'm Art Bell.
	We're going to pause here at the bottom of the hour, and we'll be right back.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 1997.
	AMC's Coast to Coast AM presentation.
	Premier Radio Networks presents Arc Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight's program originally aired July 10, 1997.
	When was the last time a cop pulled you over?
	Oh.
	you I'm still trying to get out of the habit.
	Inevitably, after I get a ticket.
	I always thank the cop.
	And I'm always kicking myself for it afterward.
	You know, why did I thank him?
	I mean, you have a little conversation.
	He hands you a ticket, which is going to cost you money.
	And, like a fool, you say thank you.
	And he says, thank you, have a nice day.
	You know, and it's all... I don't know.
	Here's a little list of a few things never to say when you get pulled over.
	No, you assume the position, piggy.
	I'm surprised you stopped me.
	Dunkin' Donuts has a three-for-one special.
	No, I don't know how fast I was going.
	A little needle stops at 110.
	I know I was weaving, but I was trying to hit all the little green men.
	Or, the number one thing never to say, back off Barney, I've got a piece.
	Believe me, never, never say that.
	ScreamLink, the audio subscription service of Coast to Coast AM has a new name.
	Coast Insider.
	You'll still get all the same great features for the same low price.
	The package includes podcasting, which automatically downloads shows for you, and the iPhone app.
	You'll also get our amazing download library of three full years of shows.
	That's over a thousand shows for you to collect and enjoy.
	If you're a fan of Coast, you won't want to be without Coast Insider.
	Visit coasttocoastam.com to sign up.
	You never know what you'll hear on Coast to Coast AM with George Norris.
	We've got Robert in Houston.
	There's this lady that I've seen about four or five times in my lifetime.
	She's tall and skinny.
	She's got on some tight blue jeans, some Indian moccasins.
	She's got on a rainbow striped poncho and a little flop hat.
	I saw this woman when I was about eight or nine.
	I saw her again.
	I was living in Dallas, Texas.
	I was on the bus and she was standing outside.
	Did she look like she aged?
	No.
	And here's the crazy thing.
	About five years ago, me and two of my brothers, we all went on a cruise to St. Thomas down
	at the very top.
	Oh, no, don't tell me.
	We got on one of these little Jitney buses and my brother, he said, see that lady over
	there?
	I said, we saw that lady in Jacksonville.
	Last November, my brother died.
	He had surgery.
	He had woke up.
	He had woke up.
	She was dead.
	Great story.
	everything and he said oh the record of the politics i got company you know the
	latest on that thank god
	if you could go to any church let me talk to a lot of you back fifteen
	minutes later but he's called back he was a student
	she was death great story
	now we take you back to the night of july tenth nineteen ninety seven
	on our bills somewhere in time and
	as the one thing that really has always bothered me the most about my own
	reaction to a ticket is that i have been inevitably inevitably i say
	And then as I'm driving away, I think to myself, why the hell did I say thank you?
	What's the matter with me?
	And it just, it comes out.
	Thank you.
	Uh, some sort of, um, something from my childhood, uh, when I was taught to be very polite with a police officer.
	And it just comes out.
	And, until later, when I thrashed myself mentally for it, uh, for thanking somebody for giving me a ticket.
	You know, I once got a ticket, um, for doing... At the time, the speed limit was 60 miles an hour.
	And this police car was doing 60 miles an hour, right on the nose.
	And I passed the guy doing 62 miles an hour.
	And I thought, no way is he going to give me a ticket for two miles over the speed limit.
	I look back, flashing red lights.
	Siren.
	I pull over.
	And he said, you know, that's about the dumbest thing I've ever seen.
	He said, you never pass a police officer who's doing the speed limit.
	I said, officer, I was doing 62 miles an hour.
	He said, you never pass a police officer doing the speed limit.
	He was incensed that I had just barely crawled by him.
	I don't know.
	Back off, Barney, I've got a piece.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi, how you doing?
	Okay.
	This is Gary.
	Yes, Gary, where are you?
	I'm in Phoenix.
	Phoenix?
	Yes, sir.
	Ground zero.
	Ground zero.
	Two things real quick.
	Yes, sir?
	One, last week, I believe it was, you were talking about a young man who gave birth to his own twin and was wondering if it was true.
	I believe so, yes.
	The story was accurate.
	The twin apparently survived inside him.
	He didn't exactly give birth to it.
	That part is not accurate.
	There wasn't an operation.
	There's no way that a man is going to give birth.
	Let's think about that.
	But it is possible, apparently, for a fetus, his twin in this case, to have survived internally.
	Yes, same thing happened to my mother.
	It's very rare, but it does happen.
	She was, I believe, 37 years old when she had stomach problems.
	They couldn't figure out what it was.
	They went in and found what appeared to be... Her twin?
	Her twin.
	Weird stuff.
	The other thing I had a question about, and I've never heard it answered, and I've always wondered, Neil Armstrong was supposed to be the first man to step on the moon.
	Right.
	But yet, in this footage, they show of him coming off the ladder.
	The camera's at least 15 feet away.
	Filming The spacecraft is he's walking off of it and taking his giant leap.
	Right.
	Who was filming?
	I believe that they had some sort of robotic something that did land to be able to take that photograph.
	I'm not really I'm not really sure.
	It's a very good question, actually.
	But I think they had there was a camera I know that was left on the moon.
	And I believe that it was that camera, and I believe they did it so they could get that historic footage.
	It's not like somebody ran out and set up a camera and then they came down.
	Well, it's always bothered me.
	I always wondered, because they always said he was the first to step on the moon, yet I always thought that someone had to be operating it.
	I never thought about a robotic before.
	It is a very good point, but I believe that is the answer.
	Thank you.
	And then that camera, I believe, was left on the moon and actually continued to operate for some time after they left the moon.
	And that would be my off-the-cuff answer, that it was some sort of robotic device.
	I think that's right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi, this is Charles from Maine.
	Hi, Charles.
	Where in Maine are you?
	Dexter.
	Dexter, Maine.
	All right.
	Right.
	You ever heard of Dexter Shoes?
	I have, yes.
	Yeah, we make them here.
	Okay.
	Okay, um, I had a suggestion for a guest.
	Okay.
	I was wondering if you've ever heard of Bob Larson?
	It's a vaguely familiar name.
	Who is he?
	Okay, he's, um, I noticed he was going to have Malachi Martin on tomorrow.
	Oh, yes.
	And this guy, that's kind of the Catholic point of view, and this guy, you know, would give the Protestant point of view on, like, the demon thing.
	Oh, okay.
	And he's the host of a radio show, you know, like yourself.
	And he's been on shows like the Oprah Winfrey Show, the Phil Donahue Show, Montel, Sally Jesse, Larry King.
	And he's the author of quite a few books from Thomas Nelson Publishers in Nashville.
	And he has, like, a couple of stories in this book that he mentions, like, he's had demons I tend not to have people on who have their own programs because they don't really need to be on my program.
	They have their own.
	I don't know how widespread.
	people on who have their own programs because they don't really need to come
	to programs they have their own i don't i don't know how wide
	you know i'm sure you you had a lot more
	of an i think you have what eighteen million listener uh... no more like about ten twelve somewhere in there
	Yeah, so, I mean, it'd be such a wider audience, and he has done, you know, Larry King, and he will, I guess, do other shows, but I think it'd be cool.
	All right.
	I'll consider it.
	Okay.
	All right?
	Oh, I want one more thing.
	Sure.
	Um, do you know, is FM radio ever broadcast in monaural, as opposed to stereo?
	Yes, it is.
	Um, because the only station on my dial here It's FM, but it doesn't come in stereo.
	It's the one, you know, it's 103.9 WVOM here in Maine.
	And I guess it's mono, you know?
	Well, is it talk?
	Yeah, it's all talk.
	Okay, well there you are.
	That's the answer.
	You've answered your own question.
	I've frequently thought, why would you have, what would be The reason to have stereo on a talk station, and increasingly, talk, as popular as it is, is beginning to cross over.
	Remember that old term, crossing over?
	Talk is crossing to FM, and for example, WWTN in Nashville, Jack Landreth is a good friend, who's the program director there, is proving that FM talk is incredibly viable, And of course, they're clobbering the competition in Nashville, and so it is beginning to spread across America, and talk is crossing over to FM, where it is very successful.
	But why in stereo?
	Why?
	I suppose the commercials could be in stereo.
	Then I thought, well, you know, we could transmit in stereo.
	That wouldn't be a big deal.
	We could do it.
	And you could put the caller on the right and the talk host on the left.
	Or, if the political leanings were the other way, you could switch them.
	You could kind of play around with it, have some fun.
	We could broadcast in stereo.
	I should really talk to my network about that.
	I wonder if the FM stations out there that carry talk would be interested in receiving stereo talk.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Yeah, good morning.
	One real quick about that call up from Maine.
	Most of Bob Larson's phone calls are fakes, from what I understand.
	I've heard his program for a long time.
	He broadcasts out of Colorado, and he talks a lot about demons and things, and most of his calls, from what I understand, are fakes.
	Well, I've never heard that.
	How do you know that?
	That's what I... That's a rumor that I have heard, and I have heard his program also.
	Well, people think my calls are fakes, too.
	Oh, I know, but I've, um... I understand, um...
	No, that's not true, because nobody would scream my call when you picked up the phone just now.
	That's right.
	But that doesn't stop people from thinking that callers are planted, and all the rest of it.
	I get that accusation all the time.
	Yeah, I know.
	I guess I shouldn't have come out and said that, but I did want to give my opinion, so I'm going to tell my opinion as that was said, okay?
	Okay.
	Good night.
	See you later.
	Good night.
	People think that I am a government agent.
	CIA.
	Informant.
	Paid, uh, agent.
	Uh, they think I'm part of the Trilateral Commission.
	They think, uh, everything.
	Everybody, uh, and so I've just, I've given up.
	Long time ago, I gave up on trying to dissuade people, uh, that I am, uh, not part of the government, not part of whatever current conspiracy they think is going on.
	And so instead of, uh, denying it, Because you never get anywhere denying it.
	In fact, more people end up then being suspicious.
	I just admit it.
	Trilateral?
	Yeah, you bet.
	Every meeting.
	Wouldn't miss one.
	CIA?
	Heck yeah!
	I'm inside.
	And that stops them.
	You know, when they call up and they say, well, we've heard you're CIA.
	Somewhere here I've got a long article that accuses me of being part of Some great conspiracy.
	I'll have to dig it out and read it to you.
	It's a riot.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Good morning, Art.
	How are you doing?
	I'm fine.
	This is Jeff.
	I'm calling from Boulder, actually.
	Boulder, Colorado.
	Exactly.
	I'm listening to Kay Howe out of Denver.
	Yes, sir.
	I was curious about how much of Jacques Filly you had read and what your thoughts were on some of his writings.
	Well, what is it you want to know?
	I've read some, of course, so what would you like to know?
	Well, I've read some of the stuff myself, and actually, you know, I read Revelations, Confrontations, and some of the other stuff.
	I was just kind of intrigued by his writing because, excuse me, basically he takes the stand that unidentified flying objects are real phenomena.
	but he he pretty much arrived at the fence work in his words
	takes on biased uh... opinion about what exactly uh... those phenomena are
	and and he kind of makes the case for i think that
	jumping to conclusions and saying so much that uh... ufos are necessarily
	extraterrestrial has another from other planets for the part of the solar system
	i don't know that to be true either uh... and i i'm very careful about that i uh... we
	UFOs are real.
	Case closed.
	We have UFOs, but I don't know what they are.
	What's interesting, you know, because he makes, every once in a while, he lets slip out certain things, like some of these things I've heard on your show before, as far as he calls perhaps the beings, fractal beings, you know, along the lines of quantum physics and such and so forth.
	The only thing that really disturbs me about his writing is Especially in the book Revelations, the case he makes, what he states basically is that a lot of what passes in the popular culture for the UFO phenomenon, some of the interpretation of that is basically government misinformation.
	But then the next step that he makes, you know, it's like he's building this whole case You know, basically it's a conspiracy that the government is perpetuating, but then the reasons for the perpetuation really don't stand up like military flying platforms.
	Whether they do or do not exist, I don't know.
	I don't see the government going to such great lengths to just cover up basic military secrets.
	Perhaps it's true.
	Perhaps Area 51 is nothing but.
	I don't know, I'm just kind of rambling, but I think it's very interesting the point he makes.
	that there was some amazingly incredible stuff, both electronically and otherwise, that the
	American public has no idea about something which wouldn't come on the commercial market
	for say 15 or 20 years.
	So I don't know, I'm just kind of rambling, but I think it's very interesting, the point
	he makes.
	I think there is some government misinformation going on, certainly with, as you've covered
	on your show, that farce of a press conference that the Air Force put on, for instance, and
	other things.
	All right, sir.
	Well, I appreciate the call, and I agree with you and Mr. Vallee to that extent.
	There's obviously something going on, and people will frequently ask me in interviews, are you a believer?
	Well, in what?
	I'm a believer in UFOs.
	I've seen them.
	And so have most Americans.
	And I can safely say that.
	The majority of Americans have seen UFOs.
	Does that mean they are spacecraft from elsewhere?
	No.
	Am I a believer in the sense of it being almost a religion with me?
	Being a believer means you're making a leap in faith.
	In other words, you are believing in something that you cannot prove tangibly.
	And that is not me.
	I guess I am interested.
	I am an investigator.
	I am intrigued.
	But I am not a believer.
	And there is a big difference, because there is almost a cult of ufology.
	Of people who are desperately obsessed with the fact that they are here from elsewhere.
	I do not know that to be true.
	And so I don't believe.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Okay, one of the things I had was, today it was occurring to me, thinking about telephone communication.
	This is kind of a weird contradiction.
	I looked it up in a physics book, I couldn't really find an answer to it.
	You and I right now are discussing something, and Our voice is producing sound.
	Yes.
	And that is the speed of sound, correct?
	Roughly, yes.
	Okay.
	Well, but if I were to get in a rocket ship and fly the speed of sound from Blue Springs, Missouri to where you're at in Las Vegas?
	Oh, well, near it, yes.
	Yeah, I couldn't do it instantaneously.
	So which is the speed of sound?
	Um, well, no, no, your voice electronically is being transmitted near the speed of light, sir.
	If you're talking about electronic transmission, if you're standing across the room from me, talking to me, then that audio is arriving from your lips to my ear at the speed of sound.
	But in our discussion now, Uh, over phone lines, or through satellite relay, is occurring near the speed of light.
	Okay.
	Do you understand the difference?
	Well, yeah, oh yeah, definitely.
	I mean, because it's instantaneous, but, um... I mean, well, a lot of this is done, I mean, not through satellite sometimes, it's done through just copper wiring, isn't it?
	Oh, correct.
	Okay, so... Uh, but that is not being transmitted at the speed of sound, sir.
	That's being transmitted, uh, at near the speed of light.
	Okay.
	I just never had that explained before.
	I was talking to someone who attends DeVry, and I know that obviously sound transmits through the air or the atmosphere at what we know or call the speed of sound.
	Okay.
	But through wires or electronically, it moves at near the speed of light.
	Okay.
	Does that help you?
	Well, yeah.
	I just had that question.
	And you know the other question I had, too, is that when it comes to Being on the air.
	How long have you been on the air?
	What did it take for you to get to the point where you're national?
	Oh, that's a hard question.
	I'll tell you what, we're coming up in the hour.
	You listen after the top of the hour and we'll talk about that, alright?
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Coming up right after Z News.
	Be right back.
	You're listening to Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 10th, 1997.
	This young man sawin' on a fiddle and playin' it hot.
	And the devil jumped up on a hickory stump and said, boy, let me tell you what.
	I guess you didn't know it, but I'm a fiddle player too.
	And if you'd care to take a dare, I'll make a bet with you.
	Now you play pretty good fiddle, boy, but give the devil his due.
	I bet a fiddle of gold against your soul, cause I think I'm better than you.
	The boy said, my name's Johnny and it might be a sin, but I'll take your bet you're gonna regret cause I'm the best...
	No.
	I am not trying to be down for the night.
	When I dance, they call me Magarina.
	And the boys, they say, you're so buena.
	They all want me.
	They can't have me.
	So they all come and dance beside me.
	Move with me.
	Dance with me.
	And if you're good, I'll take you home with me.
	Alla tu cuerpo le guia, Magarina.
	Que tu cuerpo pa' la la le guia con la buena.
	Alla tu cuerpo le guia, Magarina.
	Hey, Magarina.
	I don't want him to stand him even though he's so high.
	What was I supposed to do?
	He was out of town and his two friends were so fine.
	Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight's program originally aired July 10th, 1997.
	the radio network's presents articles somewhere in time
	delight and nineteen ninety seven more into uh... open minds
	anything you want to talk about is absolutely fair you
	you Now we take you back to the night of July 10th, 1997, on
	Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	♪♪♪ The CDC, as you must have heard by now, has documented the
	first case of HIV transmission by a kiss.
	And I'm going to stop there.
	Actually, by extended, passionate kissing.
	Uh, so, um, you know, several years ago, uh, they said impossible.
	Simply impossible.
	Now, in 1997, suddenly, it is possible.
	Surprised?
	Not me.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Mr. Bell, can you hear me?
	I hear you.
	Yeah, this is RTJ from St.
	Petersburg, Florida.
	Yes, sir.
	Sir, I'd just like to confirm a report that a man called you up either last night or the night before saying that Richard Hoagland was on another TV show.
	Well, another radio program, I believe.
	Yes, it was the Gilgrove Show, and he did confirm that the lander was on Mars, and he... Well, the only problem with that is that I talked to Richard after that show.
	Yes, sir.
	And he confirmed to me that he still believes it's a hoax.
	I can't believe he said that to you.
	Well, he did.
	Well, on the news he said he was P.O.' 'd and that he was mad because it was on Mars.
	No, he said... It was on Mars.
	He said, if.
	I asked him about that, as you might imagine, when I talked to him.
	And he said, if it's there, then he's P.O.'d.
	He might have said that to you.
	That's not what he said on the radio program.
	Okay.
	Well, I'm just telling you what he told me.
	I didn't hear the show, so I'm telling you what he told me.
	Sir, have a great day.
	I love your show.
	Thank you.
	Take care.
	We will hear more about this Monday.
	It is a great mystery to me why he believes as he does, but that should be part of the interesting aspect of what we're going to do on Monday, I think.
	He will have time from now through the weekend to digest all of the information that's been coming, you know, all week long from NASA.
	And I'm sure we'll hear a definitive statement on Monday from Richard, and you can bet your bottom dollar there will be a lot of questions about exactly that.
	So we'll see.
	Buzz to the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi Art, this is Daniel in Portland.
	I just want to say about Richard Holden that I take great interest in what he speaks of except I think he really is in denial about this but I don't think he's wrong totally because I think that if he puts his energy instead of denying the facts that it is on Mars and put its use that maybe there's something behind the scenes that he hasn't seen yet to the pattern that he always talks about Maybe there's something that's continually going on, you know?
	Well, I could have accepted many answers from Richard, and in a continuing, credible way.
	In other words, he could have said, and it might even be true, that the publicity that we generated caused NASA to rethink what they might have otherwise done, and so they landed on the fourth.
	I could have accepted that.
	Or I could have accepted A whole lot of different scenarios, other than it's just untrue, it's the whole thing is fake.
	That is one I cannot accept.
	But the thing is, you know how he's always talking about tetrahedral, you know, this and that.
	Well, the fact of the matter is that it did land on 19.5 tetrahedral, and you know, all the aspects of the spaceship itself, I mean, So right there, I mean, that says something.
	But it may be a slightly different scenario than his scenario that he told you on the air.
	That's what I figure anyways.
	Well, we'll find out.
	Okay, thanks.
	Thank you.
	Yeah, that's where they came down, I believe, at 19.5.
	That's correct.
	And I found it interesting that Richard was not fascinated by, nor intrigued by the fact that they were coming down at 19.5.
	Because that would have fit in with so much of what he was saying.
	I could have accepted a lot of answers from Richard, other than the one that he gave, and still maintains.
	Now, I just learned he was on Gil Gross.
	I didn't know it was Gil Gross.
	I've never heard Gil Gross.
	We don't get him out here.
	Um, but I did have an opportunity to speak to Richard the day following, after the caller had made the comment, and I asked him about that.
	And he steadfastly maintained that he still thinks it's a fake, a fraud.
	And that he did say that if they had landed, he would be very angry about that.
	He owed, to be specific.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air, hi.
	Hi Art.
	Hello.
	I've got a problem.
	I have gone to at least 50 places to get credit.
	I have a bankruptcy on my credit.
	No one will give us credit nowhere.
	Right.
	That's because you filed for bankruptcy.
	But why?
	I feel like if you've got the mark of the beast, you can't do nothing.
	Is that the mark of the beast?
	How long ago did you file for bankruptcy?
	Well, I think it takes about seven years for that to be expunged generally from your record, right?
	Yeah, but I just don't... I was... You know, I feel like that... What do you do in the meantime?
	In the meantime, you essentially suffer for your action.
	In other words, Um, you were given an opportunity to clear all your debt.
	Chapter 13.
	Yeah, but we did clear our major ones.
	We have the titles to everything.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Well, uh, so you're paying for what you did.
	Essentially.
	Essentially.
	No one will give us a break, huh?
	Um, why would you expect them to?
	Well, I just thought maybe they might.
	I don't know.
	Why?
	Why?
	Yes.
	Because he's working and we have a I don't understand.
	and are our television burn up yesterday and we need to be real bad
	and and we can't get credit nowhere well you know you get a mess but we can even get a secured
	mastercard well uh...
	or secured one now we can't get a secured one they won't touch us
	uh... well now that i don't understand uh... secured card means that you put up
	the money we can't even get one
	well very thoroughly and i'm waiting and i thought well if we're going to get a television
	i was going to try to get a computer you know to get in the computer thing
	i want to get into the upcoming telecommunications thing yes
	i can't even do that well um... i'm thoroughly disgusted art
	Uh-huh.
	Well, I appreciate your call, but I'm afraid that I can't offer you very much sympathy.
	I understand the nature of bankruptcy.
	I don't... There aren't too many bankruptcies in America today.
	And, frankly, I've got to be honest with you, ma'am, it doesn't sound to me like you've learned your lesson.
	You're dying to get out and get credit to buy a TV?
	Not exactly a life necessity.
	Or a computer?
	Not exactly a life necessity.
	And it sounds to me as if you had credit, you'd go out and get in trouble again.
	Bankruptcy is designed to give a person a second chance.
	And that doesn't mean to go out and rack up bills that you cannot pay.
	And file another bankruptcy in seven years.
	So, I'm sorry.
	I appreciate your call, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for what you want.
	Uh, West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi, Art.
	Hello.
	Um, calling in regards to, uh, well, mainly about harp, but, uh, the, uh, those bands that one of your calls was talking about, they work with acupressure.
	Right.
	And, um, the few articles that I've read about HAARP, um, it's, if you go to, I don't know if it's actually the, um, what university it was, but, um, um, anyhow, it's a joint university and, uh, U.S.
	military project, where they're actually, they state in their release that it's for, um, uh, communication purposes with, uh, submarines.
	Yes.
	But, uh... Do you believe that?
	The dark side of it is the fact that a lot of people believe that it can actually be used, well what they do is they heat up parts of the ion sphere.
	They're going to actually heat it and blow a hole in it?
	That's one of the theories that possibly could happen.
	Well they're going to try to do that?
	Yeah, well that's how it works.
	But the theory with punching a hole through it hasn't actually It's been proven, but it's all based on Nikola Tesla's work.
	The main, the scariest part is the fact that they believe that certain frequencies can actually be used in warfare in order to... That's correct.
	To... Affect troops.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I know.
	So that's basically it.
	All right, sir.
	Thank you very much.
	Dr. Nick Biggage has been on my program many times in the past discussing HAARP, and I suppose it's about time we got an update.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Good morning, Art.
	This is Randy from Mt.
	Lake Terrace, Washington.
	Yes, sir.
	Yes, I was very intrigued with your interview with Stan Tennant the other night.
	Oh, that was really something.
	Oh, yes, it was.
	And what I wanted to say is I've studied some Buddhism and noticed that some of the scholars in Japan had done much of the same thing with the Lotus Sutra.
	And what they derived from it was some characters that they put into a mandala and used with a chant called Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, the title of the Lotus Sutra.
	Now that's Nichiren Shoshu Soke Gakai, sir, from Japan.
	Yes, sir.
	Yeah, I'm very familiar with it.
	I just noticed a similarity with that.
	I was born and raised Catholic, so I am looking forward to listening to your guest tomorrow night.
	Father Martin?
	Yes.
	I've heard your interviews with him.
	They're very, very fascinating.
	Well, there you are.
	Well, thank you very much, Art, and have a good night.
	Take care.
	I'm going to try as much as possible to have sort of a night of the audience with Father Malachi tomorrow night.
	uh... father martin actually and in the past uh... we well actually we have had uh... quite a bit of open lines but i'm gonna try and do a little bit more of it tomorrow night west of the rockies you're on the air, hi good morning art good morning i got one question for you about the show you had on the pyramids way back was that room in the great pyramid that they were secretly digging in the great pyramid yes uh... from the uh...
	Uh, Kings to Queens Chamber.
	Okay, because I saw that thing today and I think it was the other one they sent the robot up to.
	The other thing was a little piece of information I just found out about Arizona having to do with the Grand Canyon.
	I was wondering if you ever heard of a guy named David Hatcher Childress?
	No.
	He wrote a bunch of books, Lost Cities of North America, this and that, a bunch of lost cities.
	Well, this one, 1909.
	April 5th, the Arizona Gazette.
	This guy named Ken Cade coming down to Colorado saw some strange cave.
	Goes up there, goes down in, discovers a bunch of artifacts that he thought was Chinese.
	Sent them to the Smithsonian.
	Nothing was ever said to me much about it.
	But if you look, I suppose on microfiche you can get a copy of this up on the website.
	It's really interesting.
	I can read the whole thing, but it'll take me probably 20 minutes.
	All right.
	Thank you very much for the information.
	Of course, I am familiar with the monster in the Grand Canyon.
	Everybody knows about that.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi, Art.
	Scott from Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.
	Yes, sir.
	First time I ever tried to call.
	Well, here you are.
	I got about five topics I want to run by real quick.
	All right.
	First of all, Richard Hoagland.
	Yes.
	Okay, so he looks bad right now.
	I'm going to wait until after the 20th and see what really happens and I don't see him rethinking anything.
	I see him coming up with new and different data points and eventually coming to a conclusion.
	So I'm not going to come out here and say he's wrong and get on his case the way certain people have recently.
	That's all on him.
	Secondly, electric cars.
	I think you're all wet on that idea.
	Really?
	Yes.
	I work kind of in the battery industry and to me the big problems are Charging them, first of all, is going to take current from somewhere.
	I acknowledge that, I think.
	I think if everybody had an electric car tomorrow, the power grid would crumble in a moment.
	Well, if you were listening to what I said, I said concurrent with that, you would have to be developing new sources of cleaner energy with which to charge those cars, or you would gain nothing because you've got to use coal or oil to generate the electricity.
	Right.
	To me, the... Well, what do you mean, right?
	That's really an important fact.
	Don't just say right and gloss over it.
	Develop solar energy.
	Develop more energy with water.
	With even wave energy.
	All different kinds of cleaner energy.
	And then electric cars.
	And then you have really accomplished... My problem with the electric car is that batteries are, first of all, they're very inefficient.
	You've got to put a lot more into them than you get out of them.
	Secondly, the one thing about internal combustion engines is you can pull up to your gas station and recharge in five minutes and drive for six hours.
	You're never going to be able to do that with a battery.
	It just takes too long to charge.
	Never say never.
	You're right, I'll never say never.
	The woman with the bankruptcy.
	Yes.
	There's nothing in the world stopping her from buying a computer or television tomorrow, if she saves her money for a little bit.
	Cash.
	If she can't save for a few months, then she shouldn't buy it on credit anyway.
	Yeah, I really have very little sympathy for her.
	Okay, my last point is, somebody can check me on this if I'm wrong, I think directly opposite the Earth from the Great Pyramids, or from Giza and the Pyramids, I believe is about 800 miles due south of Tahiti in the middle of the Pacific.
	Really?
	I don't think there's anything there.
	And maybe on the bottom of the ocean there is, but I believe it's, somebody can check me on that, but I think it's due south of Tahiti by 800 or 1000 miles or so.
	That's fascinating.
	Um, I'm in the middle of Howard Stern country here, but if I could only listen to one talk show, it would be the Art Belcher.
	Good night, Art.
	Thank you, good night.
	Uh, Howard's alright.
	Howard's, uh, um... Howard's alright.
	And you know what?
	I actually enjoyed his movie.
	Uh, and I think that, uh, I wonder how many of you saw it.
	It was quite good.
	Really quite good.
	I don't know...
	Hello?
	the general audience would enjoy it but uh... if you were either a s howard stern fan or be in
	Hello?
	broadcasting i think you would enjoy it
	because it documented the fights he had with nbc in new york and it was
	fascinating absolutely fascinating
	and uh...
	anyway so there you are that's my comment wildcard liner on the air
	Yes, I'm the only one here.
	Okay.
	I am Nathan from Kansas.
	Yes, sir.
	I'm listening on Real Audio.
	Okay.
	I have one question.
	Actually, two.
	Two, huh?
	I was watching a program on TV, and are aliens demons?
	Fallen angels from heaven?
	You're asking me?
	Beats the hell out of me.
	Because, like, it was the 700 Club.
	Uh-huh.
	And they were saying how aliens were fallen angels, and they were demons.
	Demons.
	Mm-hmm.
	Well, I don't know.
	Might be.
	Um, and about that moon landing... Yes?
	Um, why weren't the stars moving in the background?
	Why weren't the stars moving?
	Well, I'm going to hit you with the same question.
	Uh, General, as a matter of fact, you couldn't see the stars.
	I didn't see them, did you?
	Well, in a... in some... Not really.
	Far away.
	Uh, the answer is that the cameras that were being used, uh, really didn't pick up starlight.
	If you doubt that, take your own home camera on a nice, clear, starry night, and go point it at the sky.
	And what you'll generally see on the playback is zero.
	Okay.
	Alright, and that's what we got, essentially, was zero.
	Um, and have you gotten my emails?
	And one other thing, if you were going to fake it, wouldn't you put in stars?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Cause, I just had to ask that.
	And, did you get my emails?
	How would I know that?
	How can I answer that?
	Well, I don't know, cause I can't say my last name.
	Anyways.
	Well, then I can't answer your question.
	I don't know why I asked it, anyways.
	Alright, thank you very much for the call.
	How would I answer that question?
	You're a relatively anonymous person, other than giving me a first name, and I get three to four hundred emails a day, and you ask me, did I get your email?
	I don't know, had you described the content of your email to me, I might have been able to answer that question.
	But I use a kind of a system of triage with email, trying to eliminate the spam, which is about a third of every day's daily email, and then trying to decide, based on titles, what is important beyond that.
	So if it's really urgent, say so in your email title.
	We'll be right back.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast Aeon from July 10, 1997.
	The Coast to Coast Aeon is a production of the National Museum of the Pacific.
	The Aeon is a collection of the most important and important music in the world.
	The Aeon is a collection of the most important music in the world.
	I can't survive, I can't take a life without your love Oh baby, don't leave me this way, no
	I can't accept, I'll surely miss your tender kiss Don't leave me this way
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 10th, 1997.
	Good morning!
	From the high desert, this is, uh, Radio As It Happens, whatever it is we talk about.
	From Jim, in Oceanside, California.
	Good morning, Art.
	First discovered you about three years ago in Honolulu.
	Got several diverse questions.
	What is the latest in harp activity?
	Actually, Jim, I need to find out about that.
	I don't have an update for you.
	Is the woodpecker signal still emanating from Russia?
	There I can answer you.
	No, it is not.
	3.
	Are your guests paid?
	No.
	The answer is no.
	I have never, in all my years of radio, ever paid a guest.
	And 4.
	Do you think it's the nicotine in cigarettes that does the damage, or is it the added chemicals?
	And to that one I have no answer.
	I don't know.
	And I'm not sure I want to know.
	No, he says as he observes his own burning cigarette and observes his nicotine stained fingers.
	Ha ha ha ha ha.
	thunder Now we take you back to the night of July 10th, 1997, on
	Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	thunder Well, okay, here's a fax from an unsigned person.
	With no fax header.
	You know, they're usually cowardly like this.
	Uh, referring to the lady who had the bankruptcy that I had not very much sympathy for, because she couldn't get a TV or a computer or whatever.
	Um, hey, Mr. Better Than, play your song for someone else.
	When the country is based on worthless wages, how can anyone get credit, let alone pay bills?
	I guess you've never been there, in this reality.
	Well, you know what, Mr., um, I won't identify myself by facts.
	You're full of great big wet brown horse poop.
	I have spent, uh, I've never been there in this reality, huh?
	Uh, yes, I'm making more money now than I have at any point in my life previously.
	But I am now 52 years old, and I have been in radio for 30 years, and anybody who's been in radio can tell you, uh, that I spent a great deal of my time starving to death.
	Generally losing more money than I made.
	Generally falling behind.
	Generally having credit problems.
	So you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
	You have no idea what you're talking about.
	And in all those years, I never declared bankruptcy.
	I could have, but I didn't.
	I don't fault the lady for filing Chapter 13.
	That's her business.
	But there is a penalty you pay when you do that.
	And generally, you cannot get credit for about seven years.
	And that's what I was trying to tell her.
	But for you to come at me and tell me that I don't know what it's like to make low wages, I'm telling you that you're full of crap.
	That I've lived a long life now, and the great majority of it was spent payday to payday, like just about everybody else in the world.
	So you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
	And moreover, sending a fax like this Uh, without a header, or an ID, or a signature at the bottom, is the act of an absolute loser, coward, uh, kind of person, which is what I assume you are.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Well, good morning, Art.
	This is Floyd in Houston.
	Hi, Floyd.
	How are you doing, sir?
	I'm just fine.
	Uh, you know, of course, we don't get you until one o'clock, and we lose you at four, but... Right.
	I called anyway because I wanted to talk to you.
	I need to ask you what award you won.
	See, I have missed that, too.
	Well, I was awarded the, sitting here on my wall, it's the Best Male Talk Show Host of the Year.
	Congratulations, man.
	You deserve it.
	I am so glad for you.
	Thank you.
	A couple of quick questions for you.
	Sure.
	Any more from your so-called time traveler that was going to call you back in a month?
	Well, I had one time traveler about an hour ago.
	Yeah, I heard him.
	I think he's still a space cadet.
	The other one, no.
	I expect to hear back from him, though.
	Yeah, you know, he had made some... Accurate.
	Yeah, he had... Accurate predictions.
	Yeah, I know.
	They came to pass.
	Yeah.
	And I'm real curious about that.
	I'm looking forward also to next week hearing Richard Hoagland again.
	I'm sort of on the fence as to whether I agree with him or you.
	And you remember the first time I called you, I told you I was worried about myself because I found myself agreeing with you so much.
	And I still do.
	I don't worry about myself so much, but I still agree with you just a whole lot.
	And man, I am I'm still trying.
	A whole group of us down here are petitioning KTRH to put your entire program on.
	Well, that's the way to do it.
	And they have explained to me that they've got contracts, and you're wedged in between two segments of Jimbo Hannon, of all people.
	Oh, yes.
	Jimbo really loves my butt, you know.
	I gathered that from talking to you.
	I don't listen that much, so I haven't heard any of his remarks, but I wish we could get your entire program.
	Now, you do broadcast five hours a night, is that right?
	Oh, that's correct, yes.
	And on Sunday, three hours?
	That is correct.
	Okay, yeah, well, we get all of the Dreamland, but we don't get all, well, I said we get all of it, but we get it starting at one o'clock.
	I'm on the air 28 hours a week.
	Well, that's enough to keep a body pretty busy.
	It does that, sir.
	Listen, I've got to run, but thank you, and good luck with KTRH.
	I'm still trying, and bless you, man.
	We'll talk to you later.
	Take care.
	For some reason, Jim Bohannon really hates me.
	I don't know why it is, but he really hates me.
	He was down at the awards ceremony when I received this award, and he wouldn't get anywhere near me.
	He says all kinds of things about me on the air.
	And that's okay.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi, is this our bell?
	It is, yes.
	Yeah, I was watching the movie today, Men in Black.
	Oh, how was it?
	It was really funny.
	Was it?
	Yeah.
	I'm going to... I've heard it's a riot.
	I'm going to actually have a guest on who wrote a book called Men in Black, but it is serious, not funny.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	When I watched the movie, me and my friends were, uh, thinking about it, and we were always, uh, you know, just, uh, we saw on TV, like, when Ronald Reagan was shot, the IRS and all them, the Secret Service, they were always wearing black suits, and they had those wires hanging up to their ears.
	They always do, yeah.
	Yeah.
	I was, we were always, we were wondering, and we had a discussion today, uh, whether they were the men in black.
	Well, maybe so, in the sense that I think the men in black probably are from some portion of our government.
	I'm not sure exactly how to put that.
	Anyway, I'm going to interview somebody seriously on the subject, and we'll see.
	All right?
	All right.
	It'll be coming up.
	Listen for that.
	Yes, I am going to interview somebody who wrote a book called Men in Black.
	Not a comedy, but a serious presentation, I do believe.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	Hi.
	It's Art.
	Good guess.
	Say, some time ago, somebody reported a couple of animals over in India killing and eating people.
	Yeah.
	Yes?
	Well, anyway, I have a friend in business that just came back from India, and so I asked him, I said, is it true?
	Yeah.
	He says, yeah, but there's too many people in India.
	So nobody misses them?
	I guess so.
	Well, it's a claim made by countries with a great deal of population.
	The Chinese, for example, have frequently said that They could withstand losing, what is it, one in four, uh, one in five of their population in a nuclear war without even, uh, missing them.
	Now, I haven't really heard the story about a couple of people being eaten in India, but it wouldn't surprise me.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	How you doing, Art?
	Okay.
	Turn your radio off, please.
	It is off.
	There you go.
	Yeah, I'm a time traveler.
	From?
	I'm way ahead.
	Well, how far?
	36 A.F.
	A.F.?
	A.F.
	A.S.?
	Yes.
	After...?
	After start.
	After start?
	Yes.
	Probably talking to you way beyond your knowledge.
	Probably.
	After start.
	What is start?
	The beginning of new civilization.
	So, we're not even up to that point yet?
	Oh, no.
	So, actually, then you're from many thousands of years in our future.
	Yes, I am.
	And what I'm doing is actually called... It's kind of like time-surfing.
	Time-surfing?
	And counsel has given me permission to do this tonight.
	Why have our language skills not improved to a greater degree in that many thousands of years?
	Languages change a lot over the years.
	Really?
	Oh, yeah, we... Well, I mean, if you were to say something in your native tongue, whatever... Which I would not be permitted to do at this time, or I would be immediately disconnected.
	Really?
	Really.
	But I could tell you some interesting things, though.
	Well, I'm all ears.
	The year 2012 is an interesting year.
	Like, going through my time, I see where you guys have great predictions, but it's nothing what you guys think it is.
	No?
	Nope.
	Well, don't let it be a cliffhanger.
	What occurs in 2012?
	2012, and this is about all they're going to let me say.
	Alright.
	We're going to have to take whatever nugget we can take, so.
	It will be the year when we will acknowledge space aliens.
	You people will acknowledge space aliens in the year 2012.
	Well, does that mean they're going to land?
	Yes.
	Cool.
	And the whole world will know it.
	It ain't gonna be all this surprise stuff now.
	It will be... It will just happen one day.
	Boom.
	Did they... Did they have to teach you to use slang like, ain't?
	Uh, yes.
	So in other words, you... I picked all this up.
	You were programmed.
	Oh, no, no, no.
	I went to school and learned... I've studied ancient times.
	Learned how to sound 20th century-ish.
	Correct.
	Plus, in order for me to talk This is me trying to talk to you would be you trying to talk to a rock.
	No, it would be more or less if you went back to someone 20 BC or before Christ as you guys call it.
	Religion has changed too.
	You mean we no longer view Christ as the Son of God?
	No, he did... I can't... They won't let me say.
	All right, well, look, I don't want you to do anything that would cause the world to suddenly disappear.
	Oh, no, no, no.
	You know, a paradox.
	No, that's the problem.
	You've got to be very careful about that.
	This is true, and Council's given me very good permission, been very good to me in letting me speak to you tonight.
	It has been an honor.
	So I'd just like to let you know that's what will be happening.
	All right, thank you.
	There you have it, folks.
	2012, they land.
	That's all he's allowed to say.
	I was really good the way they got him to say ain't and stuff.
	Very 20th century-ish.
	What's for the Rockies?
	You're on the air.
	Hey, Alex.
	Hello.
	Calling from Idaho Falls.
	It's the Frisbee-terian here, 590.
	Yes, sir.
	And 5,000 watts of attitude day and 1,000 watts of directional night.
	Hey, I know you're interested both in time and reincarnation.
	I am, yes.
	And I was thinking about this the other day, and as I just call you, it bounces off you and all your minions out there.
	You know, a lot of people think that time is kind of a linear thing.
	Right.
	Of course, for example, Native Americans see it as a circle.
	what would uh... you think about the possibility of people being reincarnated into the past
	that's an interesting proposition Ever thought of it that way?
	Maybe those who have done well get reincarnated into the future.
	Those who have not done well get reincarnated into the past.
	Kind of like getting held back in school.
	Or you could look at it another way.
	Perhaps somebody's certain karma, whatever it is, and whatever lessons they need to learn, Could maybe only do that in the past.
	Maybe there's something that they need to go back and... Well, maybe when you die, you get a choice.
	Either you go back in time, or you go to summer school.
	You know, I've never heard anybody look at reincarnation in that way.
	If you look in time, it's just a circle.
	Maybe you could get put any place on that.
	On the thing, you know?
	There actually, though, are people who work in hypnosis that claim that what you're saying is true.
	Yeah.
	I think, isn't there some people who postulate that you could actually hypnotize somebody and actually get them from a future, from a future standpoint instead of a past?
	Yes.
	Because they talk about stuff.
	Yes.
	Yes, so that gives some credence to what you're saying.
	Okay.
	Pretty neat idea.
	It gets my mind going all the time.
	You know what my son said to me earlier today?
	What's that?
	He was thinking about the Big Bang and he said, Dad, I think that time and space began at exactly the same time.
	Okay.
	But did it end at the same time before?
	Well, I asked him what was occurring one second before that time.
	Uh-huh.
	And he went into deep thought, and he hasn't said a word to me since.
	You overloaded his poor little neuron.
	Yeah, thanks for the call.
	That's right.
	I expect him to come back later today with some sort of answer to that.
	But, you know, he was thinking, and he was thinking about the Big Bang.
	I've got a program, thanks to Richard Hoagland, called Redshift.
	Boy, is it good.
	And, uh, it, um, it shows the Big Bang.
	And he was watching that on the computer, and that set him to thinking about time and the nature of time and space, and, uh, he said, I think they both began at the same time.
	Uh, which was a good comment to make, but I did, I asked him, well then, what occurred one second before that?
	And he didn't, he had not much else to say.
	Uh, we'll see what he comes up with.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi, Art.
	I'm not calling you from the future.
	I'm not a traveler.
	I'm actually calling you from a place called the present.
	The present?
	Yes, the present.
	Anyway, I'll get in the site.
	Could you tell me what station you're on in Chicago?
	WLS... Oh, beautiful, because I want to call some people tomorrow to make sure they listen to Malachite Martin.
	Oh, yes.
	890 in Chicago.
	Got it.
	Hey, thanks a lot.
	All right, take care.
	Bye-bye.
	Bye-bye.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Oh, hi, Art.
	I'm really glad I got through.
	Me too.
	Not one guy that called in kind of annoyed me a little bit.
	Which one?
	Oh, the one that was sort of making fun of things.
	I mean, he did and he didn't.
	I mean, I've seen... Well, I'm not sure who you're talking about yet.
	Oh, it doesn't matter.
	No, I've seen so many strange things.
	I was just going to relay a little message that, you know, with all these things that are happening, I mean, myself, I see them as not as being what we think they are.
	It's more icons and symbols and such.
	Is this Richard Hoagland?
	Who, me?
	No, no.
	No?
	No, no.
	Okay.
	Um, but I mean, you know, I haven't heard your show for a couple of weeks.
	I've been working days.
	Ah.
	But, um, I guess I was just wanting to say that, you know, be careful what you wish for.
	You just might get it.
	You know?
	I mean, I don't know how to explain that any other way than what it is.
	Either... One other thing, sir?
	What's that, sir?
	A stitch in time saves nine.
	Well, you see, I've had experience with time, and it's not... I mean, I've heard other people on your show that they seem to expound on it.
	Mm-hmm.
	A little bit.
	But it's all now.
	You just don't have the apparatus to properly, you know, we're limited here, so we can't really see it all at once, but it all happens at once.
	Mm-hmm.
	Some people are able to see ahead in the pattern and behind in the pattern.
	Well, I'm told that time is nature's way of ensuring that not everything occurs at the same moment.
	Well, something, yeah, exactly, yes.
	Yes, I would agree, because it's the whole nature of this place.
	Would be very chaotic.
	Well, yes and no.
	I mean, it depends.
	No, I think mostly yes.
	I mean, if there was not linear time, everything would be occurring at once, and it's already bad enough in linear time right now.
	You would understand, though, when you were young, as well as when you were old, and in the middle, you would understand who you were, where you were, and where you're going.
	You see, your life would be more of a circle instead of a chop-chop line.
	That's a good point.
	I appreciate the call, sir.
	Thank you.
	We're woefully out of time.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Going once, going twice.
	Hello.
	Yes, hello.
	Yes, hi Art.
	This is Diane from California.
	Hello, Diane.
	We have only seconds.
	Seconds.
	I just a couple of things and really quick I wanted to tell you on your two experiments that we did telepathically.
	Yes.
	I got a little concerned because it happened in the southwest in Phoenix.
	I'm in California.
	You're in Nevada.
	Yep.
	Next one was in Vegas.
	And you may have commented that you're thinking about doing it a third time.
	I am, yes.
	I don't know.
	I think they may come knocking on your door and ask for where's your buffet, you know?
	Well, they might.
	They might just be there, you know.
	Look, uh, the odds of Trump being fried twice are really... Look, the show is over, so you get the honors.
	Do it.
	Good night, world.
	And visitors also.
	Yes, visitors also.
	Good night, all.

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