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July 10, 1997 - Art Bell

02:55:00

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Roswell Investigator John Kirby

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unidentified		Welcome to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
unidentified		The night featuring coast-to-coast a.m. from July 10th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert in the great American Southwest, we bid you all good evening and or good morning as the case may be across all these many, many time zones stretching from the Hawaiian and Tahitian Islands in the west, eastward across my overcountry, that's all of us, to the Caribbean, the exotic U.S. Virgin Islands, south into South America, North, well to the Pole, and worldwide on the internet.
		This is Coast Coast AM and I'm Martell and tonight should be very historic indeed.
		You will hear things you have not heard before.
		In the first couple of hours of the program from Portland, it's John Kirby.
		And I'm gonna let John tell you all about himself and what he's got for you.
		Not in terms of stories so much this morning.
		But in terms of actual audio clips.
		From some of the people whose names, if you don't know now, you certainly will know before the next couple of hours go away.
		I don't know if we'll call this one Roswell Case Closed or not.
		We'll let you decide for yourself.
		So all of that coming up in the first couple of hours, then open minds and anything you want to do.
		Last night certainly was wild enough.
		So who knows what's coming up tonight?
unidentified		sad music
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		Now we take you back to the night of July 10th, 1997, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Art Bell Here we go now up to the Portland area, KEX country, as a matter of fact.
		And John Kirby.
		John, welcome to the program.
unidentified		Good evening, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
		It's great to have you back.
		You have, I know, worked with Kevin Randall on several books or are mentioned in a couple of his, Conspiracy of Silence, The Randall Report.
		And I don't know a lot more about your background.
		So if you wouldn't mind, give us sort of a brief sketch of who you are.
unidentified		Sure.
		I got a bachelor's and master's in electrical engineering from a school in the Northeast, and I'm currently working in high technology as a manager of a local major high-tech firm.
		And I first got interested in UFOs by doing investigations into abductions back in 1991.
		But in 1993, I had the good fortune of meeting Kevin Randall and Don Schmidt, who are some of the leading authors in the Roswell case.
		And so with Kevin and Don and other people associated with him, for example, Kent Jeffrey, who's been on television recently, Paul David, the executive producer of the Roswell movie, and even folks like Philip Klass, I've had a chance to participate in the investigations and have been down to Roswell several times.
		One of the times we were down there was a time when they shot the 48 Hours special segment about Roswell.
		And I've been down to Area 51 a couple of times.
		I worked on the television crew for the Larry King special from Area 51 about three years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'll never forget that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was the one where Larry had a desk out in the middle of the desert there.
unidentified		That was one of the most beautiful shows to work on.
unidentified		What they did was we brought out a satellite truck and a TV production truck and parked it right by the famous Ailey Inn, which is outside the gates of Area 51.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And set up a stage and the cameras.
		And it was a gorgeous sight because the background was a desert.
		And Larry had a desk right there about five feet above, actually three feet above the desert.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He looked cold.
unidentified		It was cold near the end, believe me.
		And also, we had a lot of trouble with moths.
		And one of the funny stories is that some moths were flying around in the background.
		And of course, occasionally they could caught in the lights.
		And people were calling and saying they saw UFOs in the background.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I know.
		I remember that.
		Listen, since you've been so intimately involved in all that has gone on, I would like to get your comments before we begin here.
		On the Air Force's presentation of Roswell case closed, you saw, I'm sure, I hope you saw, the now famous or infamous news conference the Air Force did.
		Oh, yeah.
		What was your take?
unidentified		Well, I look at the Air Force report, and I try and keep an open mind about how people interpret all the data, but I think it is somewhat of a stretch to say that people are confusing memories over the space of 10 years.
		When you look at it, they're claiming that it was a 1956 KC-97 airplane crash in which 11 Air Force members died, and also a 1959 manned balloon mishap, and they had pilots, and also were dropping test dummies.
		You know, I think I can remember exactly.
		As a matter of fact, I do remember exactly where I was and what I was doing when I heard that President Kennedy died.
		Because these big events, you remember exactly where you were.
		I remember sitting in the sixth grade and the teacher coming in and saying, the president just died.
		And I can tell you exactly the environment.
		And there's no question about where I was and what happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was at Amarillo Air Force Base, John, so you must be a little younger than I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How old are you?
unidentified		I'm right now 44.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, your take is that, I guess, just like mine, I felt sorry for the Colonel who had to come out there.
unidentified		Absolutely.
		And, you know, I've talked several times with Lieutenant now, Captain McCandrew, back in the time that he was preparing the Air Force report about three years ago.
		He really is convinced that this thing did not happen.
		And I would suspect that he's doing it out of the highest motivations, and he really believes that the event is fictitious.
		Now, I personally, I'd say the jury is still out, although there's a preponderance of the evidence that the event really did happen, and it could have been very exotic.
		But those people are convinced, and they don't necessarily want to look at the data, which is unfortunate.
		For example, they have not interviewed a lot of the first-hand witnesses.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Which is some of what we are going to get to tonight that they did not get to.
		One more thing for you to comment on, and that is, of course, the big confab that just went on celebrating the 50th anniversary of Roswell at Roswell.
		The network coverage of it primarily seemed to be of people in tin hats, the museum, that sort of thing, people milling Around the crowds, but none of the substance really covered.
		How did you see it?
unidentified		I would agree with that totally.
		I wasn't down there that week.
		I had a personal commitment, but I was there the week before to get a chance to talk to some of the witnesses.
		But I did see Kevin Randall and Ken Checkery on Nightline.
		Now, I've always had a lot of respect for Ted Koppel.
		I always thought that he would play a story very straight, but the beginning of the story was introduced as a Roswell myth.
		And so you can tell where the bias is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It Tells you where it's going, yeah.
unidentified		Yeah, and so that kind of tipped it off.
unidentified		He introduced Kevin Randall as a true believer, and I thought that was not necessarily in keeping with the dignity of Nightline, which I highly respect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well said, I agree with you.
		Most times, Nightline has been one of the better broadcasts to watch with regard to breaking news.
		But that's the way the media is.
		I've learned that about these sorts of things.
		Anyway, they could have called it the Roswell controversy, and it would have been a fair show.
		But the Roswell myth.
unidentified		Well, you know, the only time we'll know the Roswell event really happened and the craft was extraterrestrial is when you find a piece of debris that's undoubtedly not from Earth, and you can trace the pedigree back to the Roswell case, and you can, that's one way to say, I've got a piece of debris that can be actually verified.
unidentified		All the evidence is anecdotal, aren't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, now, at Roswell, I don't know whether you're aware of it, but there was a presentation by Paul Davids and company with regard to a piece of claimed record from Roswell, and they claim to have reports showing, and by the way, there's a lot of confusion, these are not what are affectionately known as Arts Parts, you know, the stuff I have.
		But they claim to have documentation indicating that this piece definitely was not of terrestrial origin.
		Are you familiar with that?
unidentified		Yes, I am.
		In fact, I thought that was an excellent test.
		Back when you first found Arts Parts, you and I talked on the telephone, and I did a follow-on conversation with Linda Howe, and we talked about ways that it could be identified as being exotic.
		And one of the ways is to look at the number of isotope ratio inside the substance.
		That indicates there's certain isotope that's usually found in the U.S. in certain percentages, I'm sorry, and in the world in certain percentages.
		But if you find vastly different percentages in the isotopic ratios in the substance, you can conclude perhaps that it isn't from here.
		Yes.
		And I think that's a really good indicator.
		So I thought that press conference was very good.
		I'd like to see where that ends up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Any comment on the Mars Pathfinder mission?
		Great controversy going on about that in some quarters.
		Not in mine.
		I think we're squarely on Mars.
		But the pictures have been incredible.
		Today's latest example was really neat.
		I mean, they made up a little movie of the rover bumping up against this rock and nearly climbing it.
		Any comments on the whole Pathfinder thing?
unidentified		You know, Art, it's remarkable what the technology will do.
		And I don't always agree with Richard Hoagland on various topics.
		However, I think it was Richard's pressure to keep NASA open to revisit the days back in Viking.
		You probably remember when the Viking landed on the moon.
		They had live coverage of that, also live coverage of the Voyager flybys.
		And I was hoping that they would open this thing up real time to the data.
		And I don't know whether that was a recent decision or not, but they did.
		And it shows you how exciting it is.
		I've tried to get onto the website.
		The website has taken millions of hits per day from around the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		It's a very good PR event for NASA.
		I don't know why they don't do this for other missions.
		And I'd like to see the same thing happen for Sidonia, frankly.
		I'd like to see what's really there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So would I. And maybe the next time we go to Sidonia, or actually there's another probe on the way now that will maybe, they say, image Sidonia with high-resolution cameras.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We shall see.
unidentified		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've got some interesting material for us this night, and so why don't we get into it?
unidentified		Okay.
		Let me just give you a quick rundown of what we're going to talk about.
		It's very interesting to listen to the researchers talk about Roswell, but I think it's even more interesting to listen to the first-hand witnesses that actually handled debris were actual participants.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		And the one fortunate thing, since I've had a chance to investigate people at Roswell or talk to people at Roswell, I've gotten to know pretty much most of the major participants as friends.
		And what I thought I would do is last week when people were thinking about it, I called several people, and I'll tell you who those people were, and said, would you mind giving me your memoirs and answer some questions?
		They said, fine.
		Then I thought maybe you might like these two, and they gave me permission to play these on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very good.
unidentified		So what you're going to hear is a conversation, excerpts of a conversation with Walter Haut.
		Everybody's heard of the big press release saying that the United States had captured a flying saucer.
		This is the guy that actually put out the release.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The guy who put out the release.
unidentified		Walter Haut.
		Actually, it's Walter Haught.
		I got corrected.
		Everybody pronounces him incorrectly.
		It's Walter Haught.
		He said you ought to be Haut.
		So it's Walter Haut.
		Also, another person is Frank Kaufman.
		Now, Frank was in a newspaper, U.S. News and World Report today, and I'll comment about that later on.
		But Frank claims to be one of the people that was sent to the impact site to clean up the bodies and the debris.
		And we'll get some excerpts from him.
		Also, Jesse Marcel Jr.
		Now, he is the son of a person named Jesse Marcel Sr., a major.
		Now, Marcel was the first person to go to the Brazzle Ranch to look at the debris.
		And he brought the debris home and showed it to his son.
		And his son, still alive and doing real well, he's a doctor in Montana.
		And he's going to talk on tape exactly what he saw and what he thinks about the possibility.
		That's a mogul balloon or some other mundane explanation.
		Other thing I've got is a very rare tape that I don't think has ever been aired before, except I aired it on your show about two years ago.
		It's a conversation that Jesse Sr. had with Jesse Jr. when he went back for the first time to Roswell and talked about the experience.
		Jesse Jr. happened to find that tape in an old box of debris and he didn't know why his father recorded it.
		His father recorded it and put it in a box hoping that Jesse would find it.
		So we're going to hear about that.
		Finally, Colonel Thomas DeBose, who was the chief of staff of the 8th Air Force, he had a conversation with Kevin Randall and he's going to talk about specifically that this balloon story was a cover story to keep the press off General Rainy's back.
		That's on tape.
		And finally, a person named Major Edwin Easley.
		He was the Provost Marshal for the 509th Bomb Group.
		And he's going to be on tape saying that I can't talk about it.
		I'm still sworn to secrecy.
		So something definitely odd happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's quite a lineup.
		That's quite a lineup.
		And I remember vaguely the conversation between Jesse Marcel Jr., and I've had him on the air as an interview, and Sr., but that's a very historic, unusual piece of tape.
unidentified		Yeah, you were kind enough, when I did get a hold of the tape, you were kind enough to put me on the air, and we played that one night.
unidentified		So that was about two years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, if we have time, I don't know how long each one of these is.
unidentified		They're about two minutes each, maybe less.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, why don't we go ahead and do one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why don't we begin one now?
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		Art, would you mind if I give a brief history of the incidents?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, of course not.
		Of course not.
		Go right ahead.
unidentified		Let's talk about what happened in 47.
		I think a lot of people aren't that familiar with the Roswell case, and so I just pulled together some of the data today, and I'll try and give like a two-minute history of Roswell.
		The first big thing that happened was in June 26th of 1947, people probably remember the name flying saucer.
		Well, the flying saucer term was first coined by a person named Ken Arnold, who was a pilot, who happened to be flying near a Mount Rainier up here in the northwest near Portland.
		He saw objects in the sky that were skipping along the air like saucers skipping along water.
		They weren't shaped like saucers, but they skipped like saucers.
		And the news media picked that up.
		And so between June 26th of 47 and July 7th of 47, I would urge people interested to go look at the library because it's unbelievable what the news stories were at that particular time.
		If you look, almost every other day, there's major headlines announcing that airliners had seen flying discs.
		For example, July 5th here in the Portland, Oregonian.
		Headline story: airliner crew confirms flying discs overstate.
		Other ones, flying saucer reports coming from all over.
		View of flying saucers over Ontario, dump bounds, veteran pilot, and other crew members of an airliner.
		It's unbelievable.
		It's really interesting to look back at that history.
		So then, as that was going on, July 4th is when it's believed that the craft crashed near Roswell.
		Now there were two sites.
		One where debris spread down over a ranch.
		That's commonly called the Brazil Ranch.
		And also a site apparently closer to Roswell where the actual craft was recovered.
		Then that happened on the night of July 4th.
		July 5th, people finished the cleanoff operation.
		On Sunday, we find Max Brazel making the trip down to Roswell to report that he had found debris.
		And eventually on Monday the 7th, we have people going up to check out the story.
		And finally, they confirm it by putting out a press release on July 8th, 1947, saying that the United States had actually captured a flying saucer.
		That was in the early afternoon.
		And late in the afternoon, they retracted that.
		So some papers in the country, you can look it up and you can see the headline saying that the U.S. has a flying saucer in custody.
		Other papers that had a later deadline or earlier deadline did not have that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, here's where I get puzzled.
		With all of the newspaper headlines, the radio reports, everything occurring in 1947, how could the Air Force, I've got to ask again and again, have referred to the beginning of 1953 to account for something that obviously, when we have the proof, occurred in 1947.
		No matter what you believe occurred in 1947, they used the beginning of the experiments in 1953 to account for it.
		It's just ridiculous.
unidentified		Yeah, it's very odd.
		I think their claim is back in 1947 that there was a crash of a mogul balloon on the Brazil Ranch.
		Yes.
		And they still target that date as being in 1947.
		The trouble is people were reporting bodies, and so what they did was they looked over the history to see whether they can record anything having to do with body recovery.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, but nobody reported aliens parachuting in.
unidentified		Right.
		No parachutes were reported.
		You're right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		It's a very odd claim by the Air Force.
		Yes.
		Okay, what we can do, Art, if you want to, we can get into the first clip.
		It's a relatively short clip, about two minutes, if we have time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, now we're getting dangerously close to the bottom of the hour, and I don't want to have to cut it off.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So we can talk about...
		You've been investigating this.
		Now there has been the big Roswell blowout at the 50-year point.
		Where do you think things go from here with regard to the investigation?
		Does it all quiet down for another 50 years or what?
unidentified		I don't think so.
		And I can't give you a lot of details, but there are still witnesses who have not come forward publicly.
		One who I've been working with for the last two years.
		Oh.
		He seems to have remarkable connections.
		In fact, he told me two years ago that the Air Force was going to talk about a strange foreign aircraft, he called it, as part of the explanation for Roswell, which turned out to be potentially these Japanese balloon experiments.
		And that turned out to be correct.
		And I don't know how he knew that two years in advance, but he apparently has good contacts in the government.
		And he tells me that records are still available, but the trick is finding them.
		So a lot of us are really preoccupied with trying to find those, but it's very, very difficult to chase down records.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think is going on now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, Area 51 now?
unidentified		I would suspect that there's two hypotheses.
		One is the fact that nothing exotic was going on at Area 51.
		It's strictly an area where advanced bombers are tested or advanced fighter aircraft are tested.
		But Bob Lazar claimed that near Area 51, an area called S-4, they were testing recovered flying saucers or re-engineered flying saucers.
		Now, I've met Bob Lazar and talked with him for about a half an hour.
		He seems to be a very sincere person, but sometimes sincere persons can be misleading, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		But the story that he tells in terms of how the craft was propelled and the consistency by which he tells the story, and he specifically says, I don't know the answer to this when we get outside that area that he said he's familiar with, makes him somewhat of a credible witness.
unidentified		And so it's possible that was going on down there, but it's certainly not a fact.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you hear the interview we did with Colonel Corso on Sunday's Dreamland?
		I did.
		I thought that was very compelling material.
		And in the middle of that interview, he said the flying saucers, the discs, are driven by, in-effect, capacitors.
		Really a fascinating interview.
		Anyway, listen, hold on, John.
		We'll be back after the bottom-of-the-hour break.
unidentified		You're listening to Arc Bell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 1997.
		On the seven oceans, finally love another day.
		Early every time, you'll see the space inside.
		Watching it for motion as you turn around today.
		Stay my breath away.
		That's not me, I can't wait P続ed Last man sing To the
		refugee That day is falling in love with me You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in Time, tonight featuring a replay of First Day Post DM from July 10th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does it happen to you?
unidentified		Do you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have a song that just keeps running around in your head?
		Songs that you've got to play again and again until your ears bleed.
		Until you're satisfied.
		This is one of them for me.
		This particular reggae version of this had a hard time finding it, too, by the way.
		Anyway, good morning and welcome to the program.
		My guest is John Kirby, and you're about to hear things that you have never heard before.
		It'll probably be the last program that we do in sort of closing off the Roswell business for a while.
		But brace yourself.
unidentified		you're going to do some pretty interesting information Streamlink, the audio subscription service of Coast to Coast AM, has a new name, Coast Insider.
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		If you're a fan of Coast, you won't want to be without Coast Insider.
		Visit CoastToCoastAM.com to sign up today.
		Here's what you missed on Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
		There are some who always wonder why, if there are EPs out there, they don't come and bail us out.
		Why haven't they fixed the oil spill?
		Why haven't they taken care of famine and wars?
		Why don't they do that?
		You know, I think ultimately when this comes out, it'll change everything on the planet.
		Certainly, if they intervene to just kind of like overtly solve our problems, they understand that that would actually hinder our evolution.
		Now we take you back to the night of July 10th, 1997, on Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Art Bell Somewhere in Time That's John Kirby in Portland.
		John?
		Hello, Art.
		Okay, why don't we begin on what you've got?
unidentified		Okay, well, let me take you back to Tuesday, July 8th, 1947.
		And I've got a copy of a newspaper, the Roswell Daily Record, in my hand.
		And the headline says, RAAF, that's Roswell Army Airfield, captures flying saucer on ranch in the Roswell region.
		No details of flying disc are revealed.
		I'll just read the first paragraph.
		The intelligence office of the 509th Bombardment Group at Roswell Army Airfield announced at noon today that the field had come into possession of a flying saucer, etc., etc.
		And so that was a headline that went around the world, and the phones were ringing off the hook in Roswell.
		And the person that actually released that under orders of General Ramey is named Walter Hawt.
		Now, Walter still is alive and doing well, living down in Roswell with his wife, Lorraine.
		They also call her Pete.
		And they're very, very gracious people.
		So what I'll do is, let me tell you some excerpts of a conversation with Walter that I had two days ago.
		And the first conversation, the first question was, how did you end up at Roswell Army Airfield, and how did you become the public relations officer?
		Well, take you back in a long way.
		Out of high school, I went to work for our Donnelly and Sons Company, stayed with them for a little while, and I worked for Western Electric.
		And then I went into the military.
		Became an aviation cadet.
		Spent a year playing that game and got my commission.
		And after my commission, I also went through navigation school during that period of time.
		Came to Roswell, New Mexico, and went to Bombardier School.
		After that, I was assigned to a crew and we did a lot of different things getting ready to go overseas.
		Went overseas.
		I was on SIPAN for almost a year through 35 missions against Japan.
		I received the Distinguished Flying Cross, four air medals, Purple Heart.
		After that was over, I came back to the States and figured, well, the rest of my life will be spent nice and peacefully.
		And I wasn't back in the States for about a couple of months, and I went back to Kwajalein.
		I dropped the blast gauge instruments into the atomic explosion on Able Day.
		Came back to Roswell, or rather, you know, came back to Roswell.
		Liked it here, resigned my regular commission, and I've been here ever since.
		I was an insurance agent, a real estate broker, art dealer, just a little bit of everything.
		Had a lot of fun doing most of it, and retired a number of years ago and just do what I want now.
		Now, after you came back to Roswell and worked at the base, what was your role there?
		I, well, I was a bombardier navigator by profession, but my additional duty, which is what I spent most of my time as, was a public relations officer for the base.
		Now, how did you become a public relations officer?
		Did you happen to know the base commander, or what was the process by which you got that job?
		When we were on Kwajalein, I got a call to report to Colonel Blanchard.
		I went in to see him, and he said, Hawk, what do you know about public relations?
		I said, nothing, sir.
		And he said, well, Lord, you're the public relations officer for the air attack unit.
		Trial by fire.
		Swing again.
		Trial by fire.
		Well, Lord, that gets you an idea of the quality of the people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, John, what we need is a little more audio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, I had to boost that all the way up.
unidentified		Okay, I'll do that for you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But if you can give us more audio, it'd be good.
unidentified		You betcha.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		But it shows you the quality of the people.
		Here's a person that was in Kwajalan, also served overseas, dropped test cages into atomic blasts.
		these people at roswell are not uh...
		they're not dumb-dumbs by any means a very very uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was in the Air Force, John, and I laughed and laughed when I heard that because that's exactly the way it's done.
		What do you know about PR?
		Well, nothing, sir.
		Well, find out because you're the new PR officer exactly how it works.
unidentified		Yeah, I didn't know that story until he told it that way.
		Let's talk about another aspect.
		Some people say that Walter might have gone off half-cocked and just put out this press release on his own, but I asked him about that.
		I asked him about his autonomy and what his ability was to do things like that and where he got the authorization to put that message out.
		Here's his response.
		In general, I could do just about anything I wanted.
		Colonel Blanchard had been a public relations officer when he got out of the point.
		That was an additional duty that he had picked up and was very, very sympathetic to the duties of a public relations officer.
		He had to play everything by ear.
		You didn't know what was going to happen, who downtown would be unhappy about something that some airmen did, who wanted you to put together a parade, I shouldn't say a parade, afloat for the parade, a lot of speaking engagements in the surrounding area.
		It was just basically pretty much a full-time job.
		Then the next question that really comes to mind is, Roswell is a special Army base.
		I asked him about Roswell because, of course, it was the only base that had the atomic bomb back at the time.
		And here's what he talked about, Roswell.
		Now, Walter Lee, Roswell Army Airfield was a special type of base.
		Can you talk about what types of activities went on there back in 1947?
		Well, there was a lot of training going on.
		Primarily, we were the only group capable of carrying and dropping an atomic weapon.
		In essence, we didn't do anything phenomenal other than practice and fly our missions and take care of the normal business.
		It was no different than any other group function, just the fact that we were handling a little bit different type of armament.
		So these people are GIs, but they're not really, they're certainly not average GIs.
		They're people that have a lot of capabilities and were trusted with the atomic bomb.
		They'd be the first people that were actually able to do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		So the next question was, I asked him, how did this whole thing happen?
		Ask him to tell the story from beginning to end how the press release was issued and who told him to do that.
		Okay.
		Well, it was a very, very simple thing.
		I got a call from Colonel Blanchard, and I can't give you an exact time because I don't remember.
		It was somewhere probably between 10 and 10.30 in the morning.
		I went up to his office.
		I'd been called up there.
		I think the base adjutant called me.
		And he, after I gave him a high ball and all that, said, I've got a press release I want you to take to town and deliver to all the news media.
		Now, did you write that or did he write that?
		Did he give you a draft?
		He gave me a draft of it.
		And I had to just fill in a few things.
		It was no great fantastic thing.
		It was a very, very simple press release, very short and to the point that here we are, and that was it.
		I brought it to the local newspapers, the radio station, and came home and had lunch.
		Went back to the base, and the phones were ringing off the hook.
		I shouldn't say phones, the D phone was ringing off the hook.
		I answered the telephone continually until, oh, I would guess it was around four clock.
		It started tapering off by 4.30.
		I felt I could get out of there, and I came home and had dinner.
		So it sounded like a fairly mundane day for Walter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, now there's a part that I don't get.
		In other words, Walter is just sort of going, ho-hum.
		You know, it's just another day.
		Here, I had this press release about the Air Force captures a flying disc, and I just took it down there and came home and had lunch.
		Like, it was no big deal.
		I mean, he must have known what he was delivering.
unidentified		Well, you know, it's odd.
		I'm wondering whether people got so used to the fact that there were flying discs flying around.
		That's why I read some of the history, all the articles in the newspapers.
		People were seeing this stuff, and people had been trying to capture one.
		I figured, well, I captured one, and that's it.
		But the big question I've got, Art, and the thing that's always bothered me about the Roswell case, is if a flying saucer were down at an Air Force base, would you go public and say we've captured one or would you try and keep it under wraps?
		I still don't understand why Blanchard came out with that release.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And Blanchard is actually the one who concocted the main body of that release.
unidentified		That's correct.
unidentified		Now, Walter recalls that Blanchard had the main release finished, and Walter had to just pretty it up and release it to the local newspapers and also put it on the wire.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, but still, if you're carrying a release down to the local media saying we have captured a flying disc, it's amazing to me that he regarded that as such a ho-hum kind of thing.
unidentified		It might be ho-hum because he's told the story so many times.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe so.
		It's like carrying dynamite.
		Oh, yes, go ahead.
unidentified		Sorry, what were you going to say?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's like carrying a lipstick of dynamite to me.
		But in retrospect, he describes it as, well, you know, I just took it down there and I handed it to him when home and had some lunch.
		And then I was very surprised at the results.
unidentified		Exactly.
		Well, I wanted to find out whether he knew anything other than what he had written in the press release, and so here's the next question.
		Basically, were you privy to any other additional information or were in any private meetings to talk about this or see any exotic materials or bodies?
		Here's his response.
		I was not privy to any of that information, just the information that Blanchard gave me to put in a press release.
		So did you ever see any debris or bodies associated with this particular incident?
		No, sir, I did not.
		As a matter of fact, at the time, even with that press release, there was no mention of bodies to me.
		You know, one thing that people have talked about, Art, is if this was happening, wouldn't you see a lot of activity arriving, dignitaries, et cetera, et cetera?
		So I asked Walter if he remembered anything that was really unusual, people flying in, flying out.
		Now, one thing he does say, and you'll hear, is he doesn't recall any unusual activity, which I thought was a little bit odd, but certainly not necessarily inconsistent.
		Perhaps people were coming in and not telling the public relations person what's going on.
		Right.
		Do you remember any increased activity at the time, for example, an unusual number of incoming or outgoing flights or dignitaries?
		Not really.
		To me, so many of those things happened on the flight line.
		If people were coming into town or flying in, that was done on the flight line, and my office was quite a distance from it.
		If it was of any import, I was told about it, and I can go out with the cameraman, and we take pictures and do all those things.
		In essence, I didn't get a lot of that information.
		If they wanted it publicize, they let me know, and if they wanted to keep it quiet, they didn't say anything to me.
		Do you remember anything happening over the next couple of days as far out to the event, or did it pretty much end on that particular day?
		Well, I think the only thing that happened beyond that was General Ramey putting out his press release to the effect that it was not a flying disc, it was a weather balloon.
		Now, were you involved in that release at all?
		No, sir.
		That came directly from him.
		So pretty much that ended Walter's involvement.
		The only thing that he's really done is tell the story about a few thousand times since that date.
		Art, he's never changed the story.
		It's always been consistent.
		That's a sign of a credible witness, in my opinion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I agree with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He sounds very sincere, very matter-of-fact, and it is hard to discern whether in his telling now it sounds so mundane, whether it was really that way then, or whether it's just in the retelling it has become mundane for him.
unidentified		Yeah, I totally agree.
		Judging by what people have said for their time at the base, they said it was very chaotic at the time, no matter what happened.
		And so I think there were a lot of people that found it a lot more exciting, but apparently Walter did not afterwards.
		Well, there's another question that often comes to mind, and that is, I talk to intelligence officers about this, and they say when an event happens at a base, would you sometimes they tend to transfer people out of the base so that people can't continue to tell the story or cooperate each other.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		So I asked Walter whether there was any transfers out of the bases, he recalled.
		Some witnesses have alleged that after the event, folks that were at the base who might have been a participant in the event were scattered to avoid having a lot of people at Roswell that remember the particular incident.
		Do you recall any large amount of transfers out of the base after July 47?
		No, I do not.
		If there were large numbers of them, I think I would have known about it, and it might have stuck in my mind.
		But there were so many other things going on that I was running around in circles.
		But he also indicated that if something like this happened, it wouldn't always be related to him, Art.
		And one other question I asked him, I said, the base was, you know, there's a lot of secrecy on a base.
		Why would the base commander issue the press release to the world?
		Pretty much of a question we just asked a few moments ago.
		Here's this answer.
		I didn't, if you want my opinion, I think this was just part of a well-orchestrated plan.
		Civilians had seen this material.
		Military people had seen the material.
		What better way to cover it up than to have the local commander said, we've got a flying saucer in our possession.
		It was found on a ranch out here, and the next day the general said, oh, they were wrong.
		That was not a flying saucer.
		That was a weather balloon, a new type of weather balloon.
		You've got to take yourself back to 1947, a difference in just about everything.
		When the commander said that this is what happened, that's what happened.
		You didn't say, oh, I don't think so, or anything of the sort.
		That's right.
		You accepted it pretty much.
		You know, Art, I think you talked about it on your show several times, that it's really amazing how the military has changed in the perception of the public.
		When a military commander would say something years ago, I think you also mentioned the FBI, you took it as gospel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's exactly right.
unidentified		Yeah, and that's the way it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, in the military, you took it not just as gospel, as an order that you would follow, period.
		I mean, you were trained, the military had trained John to accept orders without question, not to think about it.
		It wasn't your job to think.
		It was your job to do.
		If they told you to do something, and this would certainly apply to a PR officer, you do it.
		That's all.
		You do it.
		And maybe in that light, since he wasn't really a PR guy at heart, he was just following orders.
		That's all.
		Here, take this downtown.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And he did.
		Came back and had lunch.
		So, you know, my sense of what I've just heard is that he was very much just an innocent in this, following orders.
		He seemed very sincere.
unidentified		That's right.
		And if you could argue that there is an inner circle.
		He was not part of the inner circle.
		He just was the guy that put out the initial word, which was eventually contradicted by General Ramey a few hours later.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, indeed so.
		And I'll tell you what, let's break here.
		It is now the top of the hour, and when we come back, we will continue.
		We've got some audio clips you're just not going to believe, folks.
		My guest is John Kirby from Portland, and we're going to kind of put a wrap tonight on this Roswell business, at least for this year.
		Coming up next, some audio clips you've probably never heard.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 1997.
		Coast to Coast AM from July
		10, 1997.
		Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 1997.
		Woohoo!
		When it's alright, it is going on.
		We gotta get right back to where we started from.
		Love you good, love is strong.
		I gotta get right back to where we started wrong Remember that day when you first came my way.
		I said no one could take your place.
		If you get hurt, if you get hurt, I'm a little thick now.
		Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell somewhere in time.
		The night's program originally aired July 10th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My Guest is John Kirby, and we're kind of putting a wrap on Roswell with the actual voices from Roswell.
		Walter Hutt, who is the guy who actually delivered the press release to the newspaper and to the radio station in Roswell, was just heard from.
		Coming up, you'll hear the Marcels, Senior and Junior and more.
unidentified		there's quite a bit ahead so what standby the Streamlink, the audio subscription service of Coast2Coast AM, has a new name, Coast Insider.
		You'll still get all the same great features for the same low price, just 15 cents a day when you sign up for one year.
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		You'll also get our amazing download library of three full years of shows.
		Just think, as a new subscriber, over 1,000 shows will be available for you to collect, enjoy, and listen to at your leisure.
		Plus, you'll get screened and on-demand broadcasts of Art Bell, Summer Inside Shows, and two weekly classics.
		And as a member, you'll have access to our monthly live chat sessions with George Norrie and special guests.
		If you're a fan of Coast, you won't want to be without Coast Insider.
		Visit CoastToCoastAM.com to sign up today.
		Now we take you back to the night of July 10th, 1997, on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Art Bell's Somewhere in Time You might want to make note, tomorrow night Father Malachi Martin will be here.
		And an interesting note for you.
		At his age, what an incredibly active man, advisor to two popes, and virtually the real exorcist.
		And when we talked to his secretary, I think it was day before yesterday, she said he's attending, doing an exorcism right now and should be back shortly.
		Can you imagine that at his age still doing exorcisms?
		It is an incredible story, and if you have never heard Father Malachi Martin, you're not going to want to miss tomorrow night, believe me.
		And we're going to lay heavily on the phones for you tomorrow night.
		Back now to John Kirby in Portland.
		John, you're back on the air.
unidentified		Okay, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where do we go from here?
unidentified		Well, the next witness I was going to talk about and have excerpts from is a gentleman named Frank Kaufman.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Now, Frank is a person who claims to have been called to clean up the debris site, actually the impact site, just north of Roswell.
		And he'll describe the bodies, et cetera, et cetera.
		I just want to talk about Frank a bit.
		I first met him back in 1994, and that was when Kevin Randall, Don Schmitz, and Phil Klass, and several others and myself were down in Roswell with the CBS 48 Hours crew.
		And also met him again when he was doing a Channel 4 special for Great Britain.
		Now, he normally doesn't do a lot of interviews, but he's done a couple and has done several in the recent times.
		Now, it's interesting because I happened to talk with him today because he said, John, take a look at the U.S. News and World report for July 14th.
		And so I pulled it up and I'll just read you about three sentences if you don't mind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		He said, the oddest witnesses of all is Kaufman, who claims he's still part of the secret military team that recovered the UFO in 1947, although he was discharged from the military in 1945.
		And despite what other magazines say, he's never substantiated his claim that he later worked at the Roswell Base as a civilian.
		And he said, when I spoke with Kaufman last year for MSNBC, I couldn't believe that this tail-spinning old coot was a leading witness in several books and TV shows.
		I haven't heard people called old coots for quite a while.
		So I think Frank was probably less than pleased.
		But he asked me to tell a story that I'll tell now.
		When people look at Frank's military record, it suggests that he was discharged in 1945.
		That's actually the case.
		But when I was down, he showed me documentation that he, in 1945, transferred from a military person.
		He was an NCO, a non-commissioned officer, IC, in charge.
		And I saw the paperwork that said he was transferred to become a member of S-1, which is personnel and statistical team, a civilian, but still reporting into the military structure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's actually very common, John.
unidentified		That's what I heard.
unidentified		Now, you can probably comment a lot more on that part, but I understand that there are cases where civilians still are associated with the military.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
		No, it's very common for people to retire or leave the military, become discharged, and take a civilian job doing virtually the same thing, but making a lot more money for the military.
		And so, no, it's very common.
unidentified		So he couldn't tell me very much about it.
		He said that it primarily had to do with intelligence.
		And he and I have talked about some things that he did, but I'd rather not get into it right now.
		But it had to do with kind of keeping a lid on the secrets of the base, because, in fact, at that time, there was a lot of Soviet spies trying to get at our military secrets, especially the A-Bon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		And so there was a huge staff, apparently, that were trying to protect the secrets, and rightfully so.
		So he was one of the members of that staff.
		So once again, Frank claims that he went up to clean up the impact site.
		So let's talk to Frank just on tape here.
		And the first thing I did was ask him about his background.
		Well, I was assigned to a special unit at Roswell Army Airfield in 1947.
		I was a civilian at the time.
		I got out from my military service in 1945, and then I was, or might it call it reinstated, back into service only as a civilian, doing the same assignment, same work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
unidentified		Wasn't that unusual to get reclassified as a civilian and still maintain your operations at the base?
		No, it was not.
		Because I was up for separation.
		To be discharged.
		I could have re-enlisted, but I chose not to, and so I remained as a civilian.
		But a different reporting structure in that particular IAC.
		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Generally, John, people are given GS ratings under those conditions, and they just continue basically doing the same kind of work.
unidentified		Yeah, that's what he claimed.
		And the documentation that I saw makes me believe in Art.
		So I still think he's a very good witness.
		Now, one of the things about Frank is he worked closely with Butch Blanchard, the base commander, and also Jesse Marcel.
		Now, these two people have been often criticized as not knowing enough to distinguish a weather balloon from a crash-flying disc.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		So I asked Frank what he thought of those people.
		Well, they will find people very, very thorough.
		Particularly Jesse Marcel, Major Mason.
		He was the base intelligence officer, and of course Blanchard was the base commander of the 509th.
		But they were very thorough people.
		Very experienced people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think this is the important thing, John, that people understand.
		The 509th was a premier group charged with carrying the atomic bomb, the only one at that time.
		And we're talking about the base commander.
		We're talking about the intelligence officer, Major Marcel.
		These were non-trivial people who would certainly not be inclined to misidentify something so terribly as to say it is a.
		In other words, they would know well the difference between a weather balloon and a flying saucer.
unidentified		Yeah, you would certainly think so.
		Well, the way the story goes, Art, is Frank was at Roswell, but remember the articles I read at the beginning of the show, in case some people didn't get it, there was a lot of sightings about a week before the Roswell case all over the country.
		And it turns out that many of these sightings were going on near military bases.
		One was at White Sands, New Mexico.
		And so they asked Frank to go out and look at the radar at White Sands and report back to Roswell what he saw because there was apparently a very good radar station at White Sands.
		So I asked him what he was doing at White Sands and to tell the story.
		Well, yeah, the sightings or the blips on the radar actually was noted the latter part of June, well, about mid-June and up till July.
		And it was in July that we were called from Ravo Army Field to White Sands to view the Blitz.
		Because we had radar, experienced radar people in giving us a radar reading.
		Why were you personally selected to go to White Sands?
		Because I was part of this unit, special unit.
		And the mission of that special unit was what?
		Oh, doing investigative work and so on.
		You see, this base here, you know, was one of the hottest bases in the world.
		And you had the Northern Bomb site, you had the 509th, there was Los Alamos, and you had activities going on at White Sands and Holloman Air Force Base.
		So we were involved in no security reasons or security activities, I should say.
		Well you can certainly say that White Sands and Roswell were key bases.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh of course.
unidentified		And so what happened after that was he saw the blip disappear on the radar screen which alerted people that a craft had possibly crashed.
		So here's a continuation of the story.
		Well this one particular night there was a severe thunderstorm in this entire area and we were in white sands watching the radar screen and we noticed that the radar screen just,
		the blips got wider and wider and more pronounced and then the screen lit up and our radar man told us that he thought that possibly something went down.
		He wasn't sure where.
		But east of White Sands.
		And of course as you know radar was limited in those days.
		I mean it wasn't sophisticated as it was today.
		But he estimated something went down just east of White Sands.
		And then the radar screen just went back to normal.
		So we were ordered back to Roswell.
		And on our way back to Roswell, we were in constant radio communication.
		Well, people driving on U.S. Highway 285 North going south noticed this orange ball falling towards Earth.
		And it was common in those days to call the base and notify them that possibly a plane went down.
		That was a common practice during those days.
		And when we got back to Roswell, we were told that this flame or ball was seen about 40, 45 miles north of Roswell.
		And that's how we knew just where the impact site was.
		Well, we sent out the MPs first.
		Now, this was a special unit of MPs.
		These fellows were highly trained.
		And they located the area for us.
		So when we got there, we had these portable searchlights, and we noticed a craft embedded in an arroyo, a craft of unknown origin.
		We knew it wasn't a plane, it wasn't a balloon, and it wasn't anything that we've seen before.
		So something was definitely crashed that was unusual.
		Now, Bart, you just interviewed Colonel Corso.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And one thing that's interesting is two years ago, Frank told a story that Corso corroborated in his book.
unidentified		Corso indicated that when he analyzed the craft, it looked like there was light amplification technology on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Well, when I talked with Frank, unfortunately, I don't have this on Mike, but he'll tell other parts of the story.
		I asked him whether he looked in the craft and could describe the craft, he said that he looked in momentarily and saw through the canopy of the craft as if it was daylight, even though it was nighttime outside, implying there was light amplification going through the canopy.
		And that's exactly what Corso reported as technology that was dispersed from the Roswell crash into industry.
		So I thought that was pretty interesting.
		Well, let's ask Frank what the craft was like as best he can remember.
		Can you describe the craft in as much detail as you remember, Frank?
		Well, as much as I can remember, the craft was about maybe 20, 24 feet, 24 feet in length, about 12, 14 feet in width, and approximately 6 feet in height.
		It wasn't round with a dome type.
		It was almost like a V-shape, almost similar to a stealth bomber.
		That order of design.
		There was a glow still around the craft itself, but it diminished quite rapidly by the time we got there.
		And one of the chemical boys, I imagine they were examining it, I guess, for about 45 minutes, if I can remember, before we were allowed to get close to it.
		Did you have the opportunity to look inside the craft and did you see anything?
		Well, very briefly, I got looked inside, and I noted that there was one body was thrown up against the arroyo.
		One body was half in the craft, half out.
		It was spread at the seam.
		And then one of our people noticed that deterioration was setting in on the skin, so we ordered body bags and had them removed and sent to the base hospital.
		In Colonel Corso's book, he mentions that one of the creatures was shot.
		Do you agree with that?
		No.
		Corso wasn't there.
		So, no, I don't agree with that.
		Wasn't shot, was shot.
		So, Colonel Corso's book, he took second-hand accounts or first-hand accounts and incorporated that into the book.
		And when I read that, I was very surprised.
		And so I went back and specifically asked Frank about that.
		But he claims that no creature was shot.
		They happened to be dead at the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nevertheless, there it is.
		Eyewitness testimony of bodies inside.
		Wow.
unidentified		That's pretty remarkable.
unidentified		Now, Art, you know, you talked to Race Antille in the past.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		You talked to people that have looked at the Race Antille film.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		So an obvious question was, do the creatures Look anything like the creatures in the Santilli film?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
unidentified		So here's a short answer from Frank about that.
		Have you had the opportunity to look at the old alien autopsy film which showed control panels with hand indentations?
		Right, you mean the Santilli films?
		Yes, that's correct.
		Yeah, that's a hope.
		Okay, so you did not see any control panels inside the craft that looked like the thing.
		Nothing like that, no.
		Nothing like that.
		But these were good looking people, John.
		They, I would say they're probably 5'3, 5'4 in height.
		Maybe 5'5.
		Ash color skin.
		Eyes not as large or grotesque as you see today.
		They had small ears, small nose.
		Good-looking people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good-looking people.
unidentified		Yeah, you know, I've seen sketches that Frank has drawn with the assistance of other people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		You know, you've seen pictures of the Greys in popular magazines.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		The pictures that were sketched by Frank look much more normal, the head larger than normal, but the eyes nowhere near as large as the large eyes you typically see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, he used the word people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that a misnomer?
unidentified		Well, he always called them little people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Little people.
unidentified		But implying that his famous line is they weren't from Texas.
		And so he clearly says that they weren't of this earth.
		But he describes them as almost like small people.
		He said they didn't look that much different than ourselves.
		You know, in a sense, the big heads of the typical creatures you see in the literature, but he said they were a lot different nevertheless.
		So that's basically the end of the Frank Kaufman testimony.
		Other things.
		We can move on to Jesse Marcel when he wants to do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we'll do that after the bottom of the era.
		Ah, the little people.
		But definitely, again, and this is an important point, not of this earth.
		I guess you would use the word people naturally.
		Right.
unidentified		It made it clear that it was not of this earth.
unidentified		That's what he told me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The other interesting thing was an orange ball, I've not heard it described that way before, falling, and then his description of the craft itself as glowing after it hit the ground.
unidentified		Exactly.
		That's how he said he found the craft.
		He indicated that people reported the craft was down.
		They knew by radar generally where it went down.
		They thought it was on Highway 285 north of town.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No witnesses saw parachutes or anything.
unidentified		No, absolutely.
unidentified		And in fact, I would doubt they would do parachuting at 11.30 at night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, I keep thinking of the Air Force explanation.
		And these were good-looking people.
		All right.
		I saw the dummies, the crash dummies the Air Force showed.
		I would not describe them as good-looking people.
		Moreover, they were fully at least six feet tall, I would say.
		They were as tall as the Air Force officers that were sort of jokingly saying, here we are, buddies with the crash dummies.
		Is that your take?
unidentified		Yeah, from what Frank describes, they're much different.
		They're smaller.
		The dummies I did see in the Air Force report were full size, and so you could not explain the size of them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, coming up, audio from Jesse Marcel Jr. and a very, very rare clip of a discussion between Jesse Marcel Jr. and Jesse Marcel Sr.
		This is one you've probably never, never heard before, as much as what you've already heard is.
		So, we'll be back in just a moment.
		John Kirby is my guest.
unidentified		You're listening to our 12 somewhere in time on Premiere Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 1997.
		Coast to Coast AM from July
		10, 1997.
		Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 1997.
		Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 1997.
		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an oncore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 10th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Top of the morning, I'm Art Bell.
		John Kirby is my guest with live, well, not live, but with actual clips from older people who were actually at Roswell.
		Coming up, the Marcells, both junior and senior.
		And a lot of this you will never have heard.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
unidentified		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Back now to Portland and John Kirby and coming up to Marcels.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John?
unidentified		That's right, Art.
		Let me just set the stage for a moment.
		When the crash occurred, Jesse Marcel Sr., a major, went up to retrieve the debris and brought that back to the Roswell base.
		But on the way back, he stopped and showed it to his wife and his son.
		And so, although Jesse Marcel Sr., the major, has passed away, Jesse Marcel Jr., the son who looked at the debris and handled it, is still alive.
		Now, there's been a lot of claims over the last couple of years that this thing was really a mogul balloon or it was per the Air Force Report dummies.
		And so I specifically talked to Jesse about what he thought in terms of this being mogul or this being actually something that was more exotic than that.
		So we can hear some of his comments.
		First of all, I asked him what his background was, what he was doing in'47 and what he's doing right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here somewhere.
unidentified		Oops, someplace here.
		Oh, here we go.
		Sorry.
		Well, I was in 1940s, I was going to school at Roswell, I think it was the St. Peter's School here in Roswell in Grade School.
		And of course, my dad was the Air Force Intelligence Officer at the Roswell Army Airfield.
		And today you're a physician.
		Right.
		I have a practice of medicine and actually specializing in ear, nose, and throat disease here in Howlander, Montana, where I've been for the last 26 years.
		Now, you were down in Roswell for the 50th anniversary celebration.
		What were your thoughts about that?
		Well, we just got back today, as a matter of fact.
		It was quite a carnival atmosphere, which was, I guess, good for the Roswell Chamber of Commerce.
		Great comment, because it was good for the Roswell Chamber of Commerce.
		You've heard some of the stories.
		But the big thing is, what did he do back in 1947?
		I specifically asked to tell the story as best he could about what happened when his dad brought the debris home.
		And so this is what he told me.
		Well, you know, as you know, my dad was a base intelligence officer, and as such, it was his job to investigate unusual events, you know, aircraft accidents, things of this nature.
		And it wasn't too unusual for him to go to a house for a period of time.
		And that night in particular, I remember he woke my mother and myself up very excited because he found, you know, he was out to recover some debris from the desert out of Roswell.
		And he thought this was unusual enough that he wanted us to see it.
		So he came in, woke us up, and I think he said something like a word like a flag saw so I'm not sure about that, but I think that was the meaning he was giving to us.
		Can you describe what you said?
		Well, I got up in the kitchen.
		There was a lot of debris on the floor, and there was some metal foil, some metal structural members like the I-beams, and some black plastic like bakelite at that time.
		And I do remember the first thing he wanted us to do was to look for any electronic components such as vacuum tubes or resistors, condensers, but there wasn't anything like that.
		How much debris did you see?
		Well, it was meant to cover an 8 by 10 foot floor.
		And I think there's still more in the car that he had not brought in.
		So obvious a lot of debris art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		An 8 by 10 foot floor, that is a lot of debris to have hauled home.
unidentified		Yeah, in fact, they brought it back in an old car.
		And I think they had a car and perhaps a truck, but I think Jesse Sr. was driving a car.
		So as you heard, Jesse Jr. said that he thought more debris was still outside in the car.
		So it wasn't a trivial amount of stuff.
		So, you know, one of the questions is, what was the debris like?
		Is it similar to a mogul balloon?
		Could you bend it?
		What did it seem like?
		And so this is what his answer was to that.
		You know, I handled it, I picked it up, but I didn't try to bend it or stress it in any way.
		I just handled it and just looked at it.
		And to me, it just looked like some foil-like material, but not reinforced foil or paper or any other backing, but just a plain foil.
		Was it flexible at all, as far as you could tell?
		You know, I think it would have been had I tried to bend it.
		It looked like it would have been anyway.
		Now, you also saw what looked like eye-beams.
		Can you describe those?
		Well, that was the most peculiar part of this whole thing.
		There were some metal eye-beams a quarter of an inch or three-eighths of an inch in width and about 12 to 18 inches long.
		And when you looked at the inner surface through the light over your left shoulder, it looked like there was some form of writing along the inner surface of this.
		And it was kind of a purple, violet, metallic hue.
		And I know my first impression was some sort of hieroglyphic type symbols, but looking at his little closure, they weren't really hieroglyphics, but just like hieroglyphics.
		Now, the strange thing about this art is a recent report suggested that if this really was a mogul balloon, when they looked back at some of the mogul debris or mogul structure, there was tape on it, which had some flowers.
		Now, why in the world they would put flowery tape on a mogul device back in 1947, I'm not sure.
		But they said that perhaps what happened was this tape had flowers on it.
		It was laying in the moist air, and so the flowers blended through the tape and actually became embedded on the material.
		And so he was looking at material that looked like it was embossed, but it was really not.
		So I asked Jesse what he really thought about that possibility.
		I don't think it was anything like that.
		When I went down to Roswell, I went by Socorro, New Mexico, to talk to Professor Moore, who was one of the project people on Mogul.
		And he was kind enough to bring a radar target from the logo balloon to my motel room, where I examined it and had a question very specifically about the tape with the flowers or whatever on it.
		And what he described was far different from what I saw.
		The tape where these flowers were imprinted were much too wide, maybe an inch or more wide, whereas the figures I saw were much smaller than that, you know, like a quarter of an inch.
		And I don't think these were rubbed off on the inside source of that metal beam either.
		Now, were these silver-covered beams or were they more of a balsa wood type beam?
		Well, they were light like balsa wood, but I don't recall them.
		I recall them as being metal.
		You know, I built a lot of Bulchwood projects, you know, stick models at the time, so I think I would have recognized Bulchwood, but my impression was metal, not balsa wood.
		So one of the other things that they claimed in terms of the Mogul balloon, a Mogul, if I understand correctly, it was a balloon with rubber on the interior with a silver coating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		And, you know, that could explain why it might have been resilient.
		You could squeeze it, it would pop back.
		So I asked Jesse Marcel Jr. about that.
		One of the unique things about the Mogul balloon construction, as I recall, is it was foil on a rubberized backing, which might have given it some strange resilient characteristics.
		Did it look anything like that as far as you can recall?
		Well, you know, I asked Dr. Moore about the foil because the foil I saw was not backed or reinforced in any way, shape, or form.
		You know, the foil he showed me with the current, with that mobile turret that he had there, was paperbacked.
		And he did say that the foil was paperbacked.
		There were other foil that was not paperbacked, but it did have some sort of structural rigidity to it.
		But the foil I saw did not have anything like that, no reinforcement at all.
		A while back, there was a film released from Race Antille showing wreckage from the Roswell car, supposedly.
		Did the wreckage that you saw look anything like the wreckage shown in the footage?
		No, I can't say it did at all.
		You know, there's no comparison of the IVs they showed in the film was much too big.
		And the letters look different, too.
		So I think that's pretty conclusive.
		You know, he went out and talked to Dr. Moore, who was the one in charge of Mogul, and looked at some of the old Mogul debris.
		And it did not look anything like the old Mogul debris that they compared it to.
		So I think that's a pretty compelling argument.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, that may have been a lower audio level, but I was kind of losing audio there toward the end.
unidentified		Okay, I'm sorry.
unidentified		I'll try and keep that up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Now, the other question was, were these really looking like flowers, or what did the hieroglyphics look like?
		Because you've seen the Santilli film, and they look like they were actually Anglo characters.
		And so this is what Jesse Jr. said about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Can you describe any of the characters in more detail?
		I think you mentioned flowers.
		Were there geometrical shapes as well?
		Yeah, I didn't see flowers, but these were more like geometric shapes, like truncated pyramids.
		The one I remember in particular, it looked like a ball on top of a pyramid that was truncated, so I could seal balancing a ball on its nose.
		That's the reason I recall that one.
		And, you know, Art, it seems like there are so many people saying they were sworn to secrecy.
		I asked him what happened afterwards because if you remember the Roswell movie, perhaps, it indicated that he had saved a piece of debris and his dad, Jesse Marcel Sr., came back and said, I need that debris back.
		And so I asked him what really happened and whether he talked about it afterwards and whether he was told not to talk about it.
		Right.
		Well, what happened is that night, you know, we packed his debris back up and put it in the car and he drove off.
		And I didn't see him for a while.
		Maybe not the next day or maybe the day after that, I'm not sure.
		But as Blake came in, he was quite clear that we were not to talk about this any longer.
		Now, in the Roswell film, it showed that you had a piece of debris which you had to give back.
		Is that true?
		Not true.
		Didn't keep any of it.
		So once again, sometimes the license in a movie is a little bit different than reality.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		Now, one thing I asked him, Art, was a final question.
		How did this affect your dad's career?
		It seems like if somebody were to make a major error identifying a weather balloon as a flying saucer, it would tend to hurt their career.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		I asked him what happened afterward to his dad.
		Here's what he said.
		How do you think that affected your dad and affected your dad's career?
		Well, you know, I don't think it affected him or his career very much.
		You know, as far as not being able to tell the difference between a radar balloon and a flying saucer, he did have training in radar school, which I'm sure he recognized the different types of radar targets, the Rowan TARDIS, for sure, which is what the mobile balloon carried.
		So he did not confuse what he saw with a radar target.
		And I can tell you right now, what I saw was not a radar target either, because I know enough about that to even tell that.
		But as far as causing problems for his career, it did not cause any problems for the career because actually he was promoted a short time after that.
		Did he ever give you any more details about the crash or the debris afterwards?
		Well, years later, we briefly discussed it, and that's after he had come back from a trip out there at the behest of one of the stations there in New Orleans.
		And I asked him, was there any debris left?
		He said, no, the vacuum will hold that up, as you know.
		And we briefly described what we recall, seeing as what the metal looked like, the beams, and what the lighting looked like.
		And we all kind of coincided with what we recall.
		So that's Jesse Marcel Jr.'s story art.
		I think it's really interesting to talk to a first-hand witness and to see what they think about some of the Air Force reports that are going out now.
		And it looks like it's definitely not a mogul, at least in the opinion, of Jesse Jr.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Now you've got a very historic piece of tape, I know, that you somehow got from Jesse Marcel Jr., a conversation between Jr. and Sr.
		Now passed on.
		And do you have that?
unidentified		I've got it ready to go.
		In fact, you heard him say at the end of that statement that his dad only talked about it several years later when he went back to Roswell.
		Right.
		It's curious, I don't know why, but after Jesse Sr. got back from Roswell, he called his son, and normally a parent would not record a telephone conversation to his son, but in this case, he did.
		And he stuck the tape in some personal materials, and he put it up in the attic of Jesse Jr.'s home.
		And so after he died, Jesse went back and looked through some of the materials and found this tape and said, that's really odd.
		Why did my father leave this?
		And so he played the tape.
		It's a long tape.
		I've cut it down to only a couple of minutes.
		And it talks about his return to Roswell and what he thought of it.
		It's difficult to hear all the information, but we'll give it a try for about a minute or so.
		But he's talking about coming back and feeling tired because he was with a film crew all day and there were high winds and so it caused some problems with the filming.
		They visited their old house in Roswell, both inside and outside, and people took them back in the house again.
		They looked at the floor where the debris was spread out.
		And no debris was there anymore because it was vacuum clean.
		So we'll just listen to about a minute or so of this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's give it a try.
unidentified		Well, finally got back home.
		Well, you could see Roswell.
		Rough.
		Oh, man, Tyler.
		I'm happy to be back home, I guarantee you.
		Yeah.
		It's uh it's quite an ordeal.
		Yeah, at least three days of it.
		And besides, on the second day, I spent all day looking for that ranch where we found the stuff.
		Uh-huh.
		We finally located.
		It was too late to take pictures, so we had to drive all the way back into the rock.
		And the next morning we took off and went out there, and they got their pictures, but the only thing we ran into the high winds.
		Yeah, that's what fun with that.
		We did find the place.
		They got the pictures.
		Of course, they couldn't take any sound then because too much wind for the microphones.
		Uh-huh.
		So now they're going to have to come back next week over here and have the debt to sound in.
		Yeah, I'll let you do that either.
		So, if things went okay, well, it's so tired, though.
		I'll tell you, I got set up with it.
		But I'll tell you what, I did.
		I got a chance to visit 13 out of the West 7.
		Oh, you did.
		Not only externally, but internally.
		I met the people who lived there.
		Oh, for goodness.
		I even got my pictures made up there.
		Oh, Bert.
		They even put pictures in the floor already.
		Well, you get to feel art.
		He's back there for the first time, went back to his old house, and it's surprising that after all the years, he did not say anything about it to Jesse Jr. until that particular call about 25 years later.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's even more interesting that he would choose to record it.
		Why in the world would he record a conversation like that with his son?
		Unless he intended to leave a marker.
unidentified		I think that's the case.
		Now, why would you do it other than think it might be an historic tape that your son would want after you died?
		So I was very happy that Jesse Marcel let me take this tape and play it on the air because it had a lot of personal things on there because at the time, Jesse Marcel Jr.'s wife had died, so his father was very compassionate, consoling him for that.
		And so obviously those excerpts aren't on the tape that you heard, but it shows what a fine man Mr. Marcel Sr. was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Yes, that's really something, John.
		And I'm sitting here contemplating any possible explanation for the taping of that conversation other than as a historical marker, a father who knew what was going to be ahead for his son.
		Even then.
unidentified		That's right.
		That's right.
		I totally agree.
		Well, I've got two more short things for you, Art, if you're interested.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, if they are short.
unidentified		These are real short, about 52 seconds and then 44 seconds.
unidentified		Probably we should wrap it up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go.
unidentified		Good.
		One is Major Edwin Easley, having the conversation with Kevin Randall.
		I had permission to put this on the air.
		Now, Easley was the Provost Marshal.
		He's the top cop of the 509th Bomb Group.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Kevin Randall called him and asked him about this situation, and you're going to hear Easley say he was sworn to secrecy.
unidentified		I cannot talk about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, go ahead.
unidentified		I understand you were the Provost Marshal at one time.
		That's right.
		At the 509th.
		Yes.
		During July of 1947?
		Yes.
		Pardon me?
		What?
		Yes.
		You're aware of the incident that took place there in July of 1947?
		The alleged crash of a flying saucer?
		I heard about it.
		Do you have any first-hand knowledge of it?
		What?
		Do you have any first-hand knowledge of the incident?
		I can't talk about it.
		Then you do have some first-hand knowledge?
		I can't talk about it.
		Uh-huh.
		Can you tell me if you were at the crash site?
		I can't talk about it.
		I'm going to talk.
		Yes, sir.
		I understand.
		I can't tell you about it.
		Uh-huh.
		I'm not going to talk about it.
		So you heard it, Ark.
		You said, I've been sworn to secrecy.
		I can't talk about it.
		I can't talk about it.
		I heard it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can't talk about it.
		Yes, it was weak, but I heard it.
		All right, you've got one more very quickly.
unidentified		Got one more, 44 seconds.
		This is Thomas DuBoe, who's the chief of staff of the 8th Air Force.
		He's reported to General Raimi, and he was asked about the balloon being a cover story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		and here's what he said.
		Yes, it was a cover story.
		The balloon part of it was the remnants that were taken from this location.
		That part of it was, in fact, the story that we were told to give to the public and the news, and that was it.
		So just to repeat, he said, this was a cover story, the balloon part of it.
		The remnants that were taken to this location, that part of it was, in fact, the cover story we were told to give to the public and the news, and that was it.
		That was the direction we were told.
		There was no question about it.
		We were told this was the story to be given to the press, and that's it, and anything else to forget about it.
		So very, very interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, after all of this and all of the investigation you've done with Kevin Randall, what do you conclude?
unidentified		You know, I think if you took it to a court, a criminal court, where you said beyond all reasonable doubt, I don't think you get a conviction and say that this thing was really a craft of extraterrestrial origin.
		But if you were to look at the preponderance of evidence, means that it was kind of tipped ever so slightly, I think there's a compelling case to say that it very well could have been.
		But I won't be convinced until I actually see a piece of it or see the government announce it.
		But it's so compelling that I'm still investigating it after all these years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was certainly good to hear from the principals.
		And the fact of the matter is, because of their age, they're not going to be around that much longer.
		Those who were actually there, those like Colonel Corso, who I interviewed, and, of course, many are already gone.
		So, John, I want to thank you for bringing all of this to us this morning.
		It's kind of an appropriate wrap to the whole Roswell thing for the 50th anniversary.
unidentified		Very welcome, Mark.
unidentified		Nice to be here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, thank you, and good night.
		That's John Kirby in Portland.
		And there it is, folks, kind of a wrap on Roswell.
		And you heard from the principals involved.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Post to Coast AM from July 10th, 1997.
		Music by Ben Thede
		Music by Ben Thede You'll miss me to ourselves somewhere in time.
		I feature a weekly up post-it post-agnet from July 10th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, everybody.
		Great to be here.
		John Kirby has been on for the last two hours with some audio clips.
		Many never heard before of the principles involved in the whole Roswell business.
		And from Tim in Lakeville, Minnesota Art, please have those audio clips made available on your webpage via AudioNet.
		They were astounding.
		Please get permission and put them up for all the world to hear.
		That's something we can work on and something my webmaster, Keith, probably can do.
		So we'll make that request right now.
		Some of the more dramatic audio clips.
		Keith, if you can get them up there in some sort of format for people to archive, that would be wonderful.
		And I want to advise everybody of an experiment going on on the website right now.
		It is probable or likely that Monday we will cover the final two hours of the big meeting in Phoenix with Richard Hoagland and company that will occur this Monday.
		And we plan to try something quite revolutionary.
		In addition to getting audio, if it works, this is all a big if.
		If it works and the audio is good, we'll be in a sort of a two-way conversation with those down in Phoenix on Monday, Richard Hoagland and company.
		And it's going to be quite an event.
		And it is also going to be an event on the internet in the sense that we are going to have a camera at the event, and we are going to do a split screen.
		If you've ever been up and seen the studio cam that I've got there now, you can actually see me doing the program, the show.
		Instead of just having one photograph up there that cycles through, we're going to have two.
		And one of them is going to be from the event going on in Phoenix, and the other will be of me.
		And so you will actually not only get to hear both sides, but you'll get to see both sides.
		And so Keith has experimentally, Keith Rowland, my webmaster, has been experimentally putting split screens up, and we've got a split screen up there right now.
		It's simply experimental, but I would ask everybody to go take a look and see if it looks okay to you.
		And then coming Monday would be on the left would be me with this side of the broadcast.
		And then on the other side, you would see Phoenix live and what's going on there as you listen to the entire event on the radio.
		Now, we're endeavoring to do an awful lot of technological stuff here at once, and there's no guarantee it's going to work.
		I'll tell you that right off, but we're going to try.
		And we've got a test up there on the site right now of this split-screen technology.
		So go take a look and see what you think.
		See if you think it will work out all right.
		Go to www.artbell.com and then when you get there, simply go down, scroll down until you get to Studio Cam or whatever it is that it says, I believe Studio Cam right now, and click on that and take a look and fax me or email me and let me know what you think.
		That's what we're going to try to do with the big conference going on down in Phoenix on Monday.
		That'll be the first two hours of the program.
		So let me know what you think.
		Boy, I'll tell you, always out on the cut edge of everything.
unidentified		The End Okay, so you've got Streamlink, our Apple iPhone app, the Daily Coast Zone free email newsletter, but don't forget the After Dark magazine.
		Every month you can read editorials from me, George Norrie, interviews you don't hear on the air, articles on the internet, and news stories not covered by the mainstream.
		Simply subscribe now and cover all of your Coast to Coast AM bases.
		Call 1888-261-6392.
		1888-261-6392 or subscribe online at coasttocoastam.com.
		Now we take you back to the night of July 10th, 1997, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Art Bell Well, I think we are going to do what nobody has ever done before.
		Going where nobody has ever gone before.
		Assuming that everything comes together, technically, and you know what happens when you assume, Monday night, it should be possible for those of you with a computer, for example, to listen on real audio or to your local affiliate on your computer as you see a split screen With live photographs coming from me here in Nevada in the desert,
		and from the event going on in Phoenix, Arizona, side by side with the audio streaming from your computer.
		It will be a first, I do believe.
		It really should be something.
		So, if you want to take a look, go on up there now and take a look and let me know what you think.
		We've got an experimental split screen up there right now.
		I am getting persistent reports of UFO sightings near Atlanta.
		Mr. Bell, I am an independent UFO researcher living in Atlanta, and I'm contacting you to inform you about the incredible rash of sightings in our state, particularly the city of LaGrange, which is about an hour and a half south of Atlanta.
		There have been documented instances of landings, low-fly-by sightings of crafts about 30 feet off the ground, and many other such occurrences.
		I thought you might want to mention this on the air so people in that community would be encouraged to call your show and share some of what's going on with the rest of the nation.
		Indeed, I would very much like to hear from people in that area.
		This is about the second or third night that I have been receiving these kinds of reports.
		What's going on in Georgia?
		Rolling over some of the rest of the news, Joe Camel is being put out to pasture by the tobacco companies.
		The most startling news of the day from the CDC.
		Sorrowfully, not surprisingly, the CDC has confirmed the first case of transmission of HIV by kissing.
		CDC says they've confirmed it.
		The man's saliva was contaminated because his gums bled after he brushed and flossed his teeth.
		The CDC says interviews with a couple indicate they always had used latex condoms during intercourse, and they had ruled out any other possible path of HIV transmission.
unidentified		So, my, my, my.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was laughed at and scoffed at years ago now, as usual, turns out to be true.
		Oh, you can't, you can't ass AIDS, not with a kiss.
		Well, unfortunately, yes, you can.
		I watched, as I have on a daily basis, the Mars NASA news conference.
		It was at 12.30 Pacific today, yesterday now.
		It'll be at 12 o'clock today.
		CNN covers it every day.
		And it was pretty interesting.
		The Pathfinder tangled with a rock and had what they called the first fender bender on Mars.
		And indeed, the rock yogi sat right there, and our little friend, Sojourner, came up and just about began to climb it.
		It's quite a little affair they've got going on on Mars.
		And again, as you well know, I disagree with Richard on this, and I believe we are firmly on Mars.
		And we'll get to hear from Richard, I'm sure, soon.
		And we'll see what he concludes about everything that is going on.
		But it is remarkable.
		The news conferences are absolutely remarkable.
		The pictures increasingly remarkable.
		And tomorrow, we should have a 360-degree panorama in full color.
		That should be something to see.
		Tomorrow night, Father Malachi Martin is on.
		And if you have never heard Malachi, you're going to want to do that.
		He's really something.
		For now, to the phones.
		Open lines, unscreened, whatever you want to talk about, fair game.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		How are you?
		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn your radio off, please.
unidentified		Okay, it's off.
		Hey, I can't believe I'm through, do you?
		Yes.
		I was wondering if you got my book I sent to you.
		I sent you a book right around Christmas time from Ohio, Big Footprints by Grover Krantz.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I believe so, yes.
unidentified		What did you think?
unidentified		Did you get a chance to skim through it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I did, and yes, it was very interesting, as a matter of fact.
unidentified		Well, I really enjoyed that book because it was written from the scientific point of view.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		And even from the scientific point of view, he came out in favor of the creature's existence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was fascinating and well done.
unidentified		Yeah, I enjoyed especially the one passage when he talks about the footprints and that if you believe it's a hoax, you'd almost have to believe in a worldwide conspiracy laying down footprints over the past century.
unidentified		And in other words, who's funding this organization and how they've been able to keep it secret for so long.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And I was wondering if you might possibly be able to get that guy on the radio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll see what I can do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's very difficult trying to get people when you don't have contact information.
unidentified		But I'm sorry, I'm from Ohio, and I work out here in Washington, but I don't know the guy, so I couldn't give you no information on how to get a hold of him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, listen, I heartily appreciate your having said it.
		Thank you, and I will do what I can.
		And let me take a moment to say this.
		If you have a suggestion for a guest, by all means, if you have any way, publishers' names, phone numbers, addresses, any way I can get hold of the person that you want to get on the air, it is very helpful.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Yes, Art.
		Yes.
		This is Tim in Phoenix.
		Hi.
		The reason I was calling, did I hear you earlier, you said Hoagland didn't believe we were on Mars?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		Okay, my theory is this.
unidentified		Okay, if he didn't think we were there, would not, okay, some of the people that didn't like us, like Russia or some of these other countries, would check to see if our signals weren't coming from Mars, you know, from the location we said we're at, and then come back and say, hey, you're lying, and, you know, just try to make a, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think the case is profoundly strong that we are on Mars, period.
unidentified		I do too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I believe that Richard will come to that conclusion himself given time, but I could be wrong.
unidentified		And that'll be tomorrow he'll be down here?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, Monday.
unidentified		Monday?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Monday.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		I'll be listening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		Yeah, it'll make it interesting.
		Richard and I have a schism in this area.
		But that's okay.
		I mean, this is what disagreements are about.
		And it may well be that Richard will rethink it.
		It may be that he is rethinking it now.
		I don't know.
		Or maybe he is going to maintain.
		We'll find out.
		Monday.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Oh, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		This is Jim in Louisiana.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Jim.
unidentified		Yeah.
		I know you travel a lot, Art.
		I wanted to ask you a question.
		I was in Walmart the other day, and they have one of those little things for, like, for seasickness or whatever it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		It's a little thing that, I don't know, you know more about this than me, but something you put on your wrist, like a tight little band.
unidentified		What would that do?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's kind of like a nicotine patch, and it's simply.
unidentified		Yeah, but it says drug-free and all that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure it's some sort of natural potion.
unidentified		No, I mean, the way it looked like it just put pressure on your...
		Yeah, it was a pressure thing.
		It had nothing to do with any kind of...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I tell you, the traveling I have done, I get seasick too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But the cruises that we go on, these are great big traveling cities.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And generally, even in fairly rough seas, they have stabilizers and they don't rock and roll.
unidentified		Okay, one other thing.
		Yeah, I think that Malachi Martin, your first interview with him, was the best one I've ever heard.
		It was just riveting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very good, yes.
unidentified		Would you ever consider going on an exorcism with him if he asked you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't think you would ask me.
		Would I do it?
		Yes, I would do it, but I would not expect to be asked.
unidentified		It would be kind of scary, though, wouldn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It would be very scary.
unidentified		Okay, Ari, take care.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you go?
unidentified		Not a chance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not a chance, huh?
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		All we need is a possessed talk show host.
		I mean, maybe I'll ask Malachi about that.
		I wonder if people are ever allowed into exorcisms.
		My guess would be no, that they're probably not.
		I would think it would be something they just simply wouldn't do.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Well, good morning.
unidentified		I'm calling from Anchorage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anchorage, Alaska.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yeah, this Richard Hoagland, he's talking about this Mars thing being a hoax.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Why is it that he never addressed the moon hoax?
unidentified		Or has he?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it is a fair question.
unidentified		Has he commented on why the footprints and all the tracks and everything are all clearly seen?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, they're...
unidentified		You have asked him that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, many times.
unidentified		Which is an answer for that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That the sand is very fine and is displaced by the pressure, and so the tracks remain in the granule.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's very fine granule material.
unidentified		Does that sound reasonable to you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		Has he addressed NASA mooned America?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that Richard Hoagland, in his own way, thinks that NASA mooned America.
unidentified		No, he doesn't, because he was talking with Ed Mitchell there, and they were all jumping it up.
		Yeah, you're over there, but this big old building, this glass building that you can't see, is over here.
		Well, that's what I just talk about those issues.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what I just said, sir, that in his own way, he thinks that NASA mooned America because while he thinks we did go to the moon, he believes that there were things there that were not reported on.
unidentified		Well, I'd like to see him address what was reported on in NASA mooned America.
unidentified		Some of those, not some of them, but there's some substantial points there that need to be addressed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you believe we did not go to the moon?
unidentified		After reading that book, I'm convinced.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you convinced that we are now not on Mars?
unidentified		If we didn't go to the moon, probably we're not in Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you are absolutely entitled to your opinion, and I absolutely disagree with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think we did go to the moon, and I think we are on Mars.
unidentified		Period.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that puts me in a separate camp from a lot of people.
		But I do not jump to the first conspiracy as the most likely explanation.
		I think that there is substantial evidence that we went to the moon, and certainly is substantial evidence that we are presently on Mars.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Good morning, Derr.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Fritz from Phoenix.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Fritz.
unidentified		What a week.
unidentified		First we had the Mars landing, then we had Raswell celebration, and you had Phil Kwas on Sunday night 8 Made My Week.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that was really something, huh?
unidentified		I mean, that was just falling into place, and it's going to stay in the mainstream.
		Now, I had a quick, briefly, conversation with William Burns, and I asked him what are the chances to have this book made in a television special.
		And his reply was, 100%.
		This will be a motion picture.
		Really?
		Phil Crosser will have a motion picture.
		And let me tell you, those guys in the bandagal must be scrambling right now because there's more stuff coming out than you and I can imagine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The only thing that concerns me Fritz is that when they do a movie they take dramatic license too frequently.
unidentified		Oh yes we're going to see the crash and all this but we realize it's going to be a world release it's going to turn on millions of people.
		It's going to be yes Hollywood will make a movie but it's exposure.
		That's what the name of the game is.
		Get the people in the knowing.
		And by Bill Burns saying William Byrne saying that this will come out in a motion picture.
		I mean it's going to be fantastic.
		I mean it's going to be a good movie.
		And like I said, had I been next to Carl Carlso, I would have hugged the guy.
		I mean he is 82 years old and he's coming clean.
		And I hope there are going to be more guys like him coming out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I am going to try to get that program repeated in a different time slot.
unidentified		Oh yeah, it has to be a must because it's a classic.
		It is a classic.
		I agree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Fritz.
unidentified		Take care.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		And I may not be successful.
		So what I would advise my audience is it was an historic broadcast on Sunday.
		This last Sunday.
		Truly historic.
		And you should get a copy of it.
		And you can do so.
		And I mean really historic.
		This is a program everybody should have a copy of.
		You can get it by calling 1-800-917-4278.
		And you want to request the Dreamland interview with Colonel Philip Corso this past Sunday.
		The number, again, is 1-800-917-4278.
		By the way, for those of you who would like a copy of The Quickening, I've got...
		happened there.
		I've got a If you would like to jump and get one, you will not get an autographed edition, but soon your ability to get the book at all is going to be gone for a while because it's going to go into general release in late August or early September.
		I'm Art Bell.
		We're going to pause here at the bottom of the hour and we'll be right back.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Premiere Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 1997.
		Coast to Coast AM from July
		10, 1997.
		Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 1997.
		Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 1997.
		Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight's program originally aired July 10th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When was the last time a cop pulled you over?
		I'm still trying to get out of the habit.
		Inevitably, after I get a ticket, I always thank the cop.
		And I'm always kicking myself for it afterward.
		You know, why did I thank him?
		I mean, you have a little conversation.
		He hands you a ticket, which is going to cost you money.
		And, like a fool, you say thank you.
		And he says, thank you.
		Have a nice day.
		You know, and it's all, I don't know.
		Here's a little list of a few things never to say when you get pulled over.
		No, you assume the position, piggy.
		I'm surprised you stopped me.
		Dunkin' Donuts has a three-for-one special.
		No, I don't know how fast I was going.
unidentified		The little needle stops at 110.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know I was weaving, but I was trying to hit all the little green men.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or the number one thing never to say, back off, Barney, I've got a piece.
unidentified		believe me never never say that Streamlink, the audio subscription service of Coast to Coast AM, has a new name, Coast Insider.
		You'll still get all the same great features for the same low price.
		The package includes podcasting, which automatically downloads shows for you, and the iPhone app.
		You'll also get our amazing download library of three full years of shows.
		That's over a thousand shows for you to collect and enjoy.
		If you're a fan of Coast, you won't want to be without Coast Insider.
		Visit CoastToCoastAM.com to sign up.
		You never know what you'll hear on Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
		We've got Robert in Houston.
		There's this lady that I've seen about four or five times in my lifetime.
		She's tall and skinny.
		She had on some tight blue jeans, some Indian moccasins.
		She had on a rainbow-striped poncho and a la flop hat.
		I saw this woman when I was about eight or nine.
		I saw her again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was living in Dallas, Texas.
unidentified		I was on the bus and she was standing outside.
		Did she look like she aged?
		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And here's the crazy thing.
unidentified		About five years ago, me and two of my brothers, we all went on a cruise to St. Thomas down in the Bridgeville.
		Oh, no, don't tell me.
		We got on one of these little Jitney buses, and my brother, he said, see that lady over there?
		I said, we saw that lady in Jacksonville.
		Last November, my brother died.
		He had surgery.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He had woke up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He was getting ready to eat his breakfast and Everything.
unidentified		And he said, oh, he said, I got to get off the phone.
		He said, I got company.
		He said, you know the lady we saw down in St. Thomas?
		He said, she's sitting over there in the church.
		Let me talk to her.
		I'll call you back.
		15 minutes later, my niece called back.
		He was dead.
		She's dead.
		She was deaf.
		Great story.
		Now we take you back to the night of July 10th, 1997, on Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Art Bell Somewhere in Time Yes, the one thing that really has always bothered me the most about my own reaction to a ticket is that I inevitably, inevitably, I say thank you.
		And then as I'm driving away, I think to myself, why the hell did I say thank you?
		What's the matter with me?
		And it just, it comes out.
		Thank you.
		Some sort of something from my childhood when I was taught to be very polite with a police officer.
		And it just comes out.
		And until later, when I thrashed myself mentally for it, for thanking somebody for giving me a ticket.
		You know, I once got a ticket for doing...
		And this police car was doing 60 miles an hour right on the nose.
		And I passed the guy doing 62 miles an hour.
		And I thought, no way is he going to give me a ticket for two miles over the speed limit.
		I look back, flashing red lights.
		Siren, I pull over.
		And he said, you know, that's about the dumbest thing I've ever seen.
		He said, you never pass a police officer who's doing the speed limit.
		I said, officer, I was doing 62 miles an hour.
		He said, you never pass a police officer doing the speed limit.
		He was incensed that I had just barely crawled by him.
		I don't know.
		Back off, Barney.
		I've got a piece.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
		Hi, how are you doing?
		Okay.
unidentified		This is Gary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Gary, where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Phoenix.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Phoenix?
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ground Zero.
unidentified		Ground Zero.
unidentified		Two things, real quick.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir?
unidentified		One, last week I believe it was, you were talking about a young man who gave birth to his own twin and was wondering if it was true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I believe so, yes.
		The story was accurate.
		The twin apparently survived inside him.
		He didn't exactly give birth to it.
		That part is not accurate.
		There was an operation.
		I mean, there's no way that a man is going to give birth to one.
		Let's think about that.
		But it is possible, apparently, for a fetus, his twin in this case, to have survived internally.
unidentified		Yes, same thing happened to my mother.
		It's very rare, but it does happen.
		She was, I believe, 37 years old when she had stomach problems.
		They couldn't figure out what it was.
		They went in and found what appeared to be Her twin.
		God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Weird stuff.
unidentified		The other thing I had to question about, and I've never heard it answered, and I've always wondered, Neil Armstrong was supposed to be the first man to step on the moon.
		Right.
		But yet in this footage they show of him coming off the ladder, the camera's at least 15 feet away.
		Filming the spacecraft as he's walking off of it and taking his giant leap.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		Who was filming?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I believe that they had some sort of robotic something that did land to be able to take that photograph.
		I'm not really sure.
		It's a very good question, actually.
		But I think they had.
		There was a camera I know that was left on the moon.
		And I believe that it was that camera, and I believe they did it so they could get that historic footage.
		It's not like somebody ran out and set up a camera and then they came down.
unidentified		Well, it's always bothered me.
		I always wondered because they always said he was the first to step on the moon, yet I always thought someone had to be operating it.
		I've never thought about a robotic before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is a very good point.
		But I believe that is the answer.
		Thank you.
		And then that camera, I believe, was left on the moon and actually continued to operate for some time after they left the moon.
		And that would be my off-the-cuff answer, that it was some sort of robotic device.
		I think that's right.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, this is Charles from Maine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Charles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where in Maine are you?
unidentified		Dexter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dexter, Maine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		You ever heard of Dexter shoes?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have, yes.
unidentified		Yeah, we make them here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Okay, I had a suggestion for our guest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		I was wondering if you've ever heard of Bob Larson?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a vaguely familiar name.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Who is he?
unidentified		Okay, he's, I noticed he was going to have Malachi Martin on tomorrow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		And this guy, that's kind of the Catholic point of view.
unidentified		And this guy, you know, would give the Protestant point of view on, like, the demon thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
unidentified		And he's the host of a radio show, you know, like yourself.
		And he's been on shows like The Oprah Winfrey Show, The Phil Donahue Show, Montel, Sally Jesse, Larry King.
		And he's the author of quite a few books from Thomas Nelson Publishers in Nashville.
		And he had like a couple of stories in this book that he mentions like he's had demons duplicate his physical appearance.
		He could tell that story, I guess, and duplicate his voice over the phone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I tend not to have people on who have their own programs because they don't really need to be on my program.
unidentified		They have their own.
unidentified		I don't know how widespread, you know, I'm sure you hit a lot more of an, I think you have, what, 18 million listeners?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, more like about 10, 12, somewhere in there.
unidentified		Yeah, so, I mean, it would be such a wider audience.
		And he has done, you know, Larry King, and he will, I guess, do other shows.
		But I think it'd be cool.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I'll consider it.
		Okay.
unidentified		Oh, I want one more thing.
		Sure.
		Do you know, is FM radio ever broadcast in monorail as opposed to stereo?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
unidentified		Because the only station on my dial here that comes, it's FM, but it doesn't come in stereo is the one, you know, it's 1039 WVOM here in Maine.
unidentified		And I guess it's mono, you know?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, is it talk?
unidentified		Yeah, it's all talk.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, there you are.
		That's the answer.
		You've answered your own question.
		I've frequently thought, why would you have, what would be the reason to have stereo on a talk station?
		And increasingly, talk, as popular as it is, is beginning to cross over.
		Remember that old term, crossing over?
		Talk is crossing to FM.
		And for example, WWTN in Nashville, Jack Landrith is a good friend who's the program director there, is proving that FM Talk is incredibly viable.
		And of course, they're clobbering the competition in Nashville.
		And so it is beginning to spread across America.
		And talk is crossing over to FM, where it is very successful.
		But why in stereo?
		Why?
		I suppose the commercials could be in stereo.
		Then I thought, well, you know, we could transmit in stereo.
		That wouldn't be a big deal.
		We could do it.
		And you could put the caller on the right and the talk host on the left.
		Or if the political leanings were the other way, you could switch them.
		You could kind of play around with it and have some fun.
		We could broadcast in stereo.
		I should really talk to my network about that.
		I wonder if the FM stations out there that carry talk would be interested in receiving stereo talk.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
		Yeah, good morning.
unidentified		One real quick about that caller from Maine.
		Most of Bob Larson's phone calls are fakes, from what I understand.
		I've heard his program for a long time.
		He broadcasts out of Colorado and he talks a lot about demons and things.
		And most of his calls, from what I understand, are fakes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've never heard that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you know that?
unidentified		That's what I rumored that I have heard, and I've heard his program also.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, people think my calls are fakes, too.
unidentified		Oh, I know, but I understand.
unidentified		Now that's not true because nobody screamed my call when you picked up the phone just now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		But that doesn't stop people from thinking that callers are planted and all the rest of it.
		I get that accusation all the time.
unidentified		Yeah, I know, so I guess I shouldn't have quite come out and sit up.
unidentified		I did want to give my opinion, so I'm going to tell us my opinions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was it, okay?
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night.
		See you later.
		Good night.
		People think that I am a government agent.
		CIA.
		Informant.
		Paid agent.
		They think I'm part of the Trilateral Commission.
		They think everything.
		Everybody.
		And so I've just given up.
		Long time ago, I gave up on trying to dissuade people that I am not part of the government, not part of whatever current conspiracy they think is going on.
		And so instead of denying it, because you never get anywhere denying it, in fact, more people end up then being suspicious, I just admit it.
		Trilateral?
		Yeah, you bet.
		Every meeting wouldn't miss one.
		CIA?
		Heck yeah.
		I'm inside.
		And that stops them.
		You know, when they call up and they say, well, well, we've heard you're a CIA.
		Somewhere here, I've got a long article that accuses me of being part of some great conspiracy.
		I'll have to dig it out and read it to you.
		It's a riot.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
		Good morning, Art.
		How are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm fine.
unidentified		This is Jeff.
unidentified		I'm calling from Boulder, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boulder, Colorado.
unidentified		Exactly.
unidentified		I'm listening to Kahow out of Denver.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I was curious about how much of Jacques Valy you had read and what your thoughts were on some of his writings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what is it you want to know?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've read some, of course, and I so what would you like to know?
unidentified		Well, I've read some of the stuff myself.
		And actually, you know, they read Revelations, Confrontations, and some of the other stuff.
		I was just kind of intrigued by his writing because basically he takes the stand that unidentified flying objects are real phenomena.
		But he pretty much rides the fence or, in his words, takes an unbiased opinion about what exactly those phenomena are.
		And he kind of makes the case for not jumping to conclusions and saying so much that UFOs are necessarily extraterrestrial as from other planets or another part of the solar system.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I don't know that to be true either.
		And I'm very careful about that.
		UFOs are real, case closed.
		We have UFOs, but I don't know what they are.
unidentified		Well, it's interesting, you know, because he makes every once in a while he lets slip out certain things like some of these things I've heard on your show before as far as he calls perhaps the beings fractal beings, you know, along the lines of quantum physics and such and so forth.
		The only thing that really disturbs me about his writing is, especially in the book Revelations, the case he makes, what he states basically is that a lot of what passes in the popular culture for the UFO phenomenon, some of the interpretation of that is basically government misinformation.
		But then the next step that he makes, you know, it's like he's building this whole case.
		You know, basically it's conspiracy that the government is perpetuating, but then the reasons for the perpetuation really don't stand up like military flying platforms.
		Well, whether they do or do not exist, I don't know.
		I don't see the government going to such Great lengths to just cover up basic military secrets.
		Perhaps it's true.
		Perhaps Area 51 is nothing but advanced military technology.
		And I wouldn't be surprised if it was some amazingly incredible stuff, both electronically and otherwise, stuff that the American public has no idea about something which wouldn't come on the commercial market for, say, 15 or 20 years.
		So I don't know.
		I'm just kind of rambling, but I think it's very interesting the point he makes that I think there is some government misinformation going on, certainly with, as you've covered on your show, that farce of a press conference that the Air Force put on, for instance, and other things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Sarah, well, I appreciate the call, and I agree with you and Mr. Vallet to that extent.
		There's obviously something going on, and people will frequently ask me in interviews, are you a believer?
		Well, in what?
		I'm a believer in UFOs.
		I've seen them.
		And so have most Americans.
		And I can safely say that the majority of Americans have seen UFOs.
		Does that mean they are spacecraft from elsewhere?
		No.
		Am I a believer in the sense of it being almost a religion with me?
		Being a believer means you're making a leap in faith.
		In other words, you are believing in something that you cannot prove tangibly.
		And that is not me.
		I guess I am interested.
		I am an investigator.
		I am intrigued.
		But I am not a believer.
		And there is a big difference because there is almost a cult of ufology.
		People who are desperately obsessed with the fact that they are here from elsewhere.
		I do not know that to be true.
		And so I don't believe.
		Western the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Okay, one of the things I had was today it was occurring to me thinking about telephone communication.
		This is kind of a weird contradiction.
		I looked it up in a physics book.
		I couldn't really find an answer to it.
		You and I right now are discussing something, and our voice is producing sound.
		And that is the speed of sound, correct?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Roughly, yes.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		Well, but if I were to get in a rocket ship and fly the speed of sound from Blue Springs, Missouri to where you're at in Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, near it, yes.
unidentified		Yeah, I couldn't do it instantaneously.
unidentified		So which is the speed of sound?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, no.
		Your voice electronically is being transmitted near the speed of light, sir.
		If you're talking about electronic transmission, if you're standing across the room from me, talking to me, then that audio is arriving from your lips to my ear at the speed of sound.
		But in our discussion now, over phone lines or through satellite relay, it is occurring near the speed of light.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you understand the difference?
unidentified		Well, yeah, oh, yeah, definitely.
		I mean, because it's instantaneous, but a lot of this is done, I mean, not through satellite sometimes.
		It's done through just copper wiring, isn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, correct.
unidentified		Okay, so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But that is not being transmitted at the speed of sound, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's being transmitted near the speed of light.
unidentified		Okay.
		I just never had that explained before.
		I was talking to someone who attends DeVry, and I mean, I know that obviously...
		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But through wires or electronically, it moves at near the speed of light.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does that help you?
unidentified		Well, yeah, I just had that question.
unidentified		And you know the other question I had, too, is that when it comes to being on the air, how long have you been on the air and what did it take for you to get to the point where you're national?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's a hard question.
		I'll tell you what, we're coming up in the hour.
		You listen after the top of the hour and we'll talk about that, all right?
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Coming up right after Z Moves.
		Be right back.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time.
unidentified		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 10th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This young man sewing on the fiddle and playing it hot.
unidentified		And the devil jumped up on the hickory stump and said, boy, let me tell you what.
		I guess you didn't know it, but I'm a fiddle player too.
		And if you'd care to take a dare, I'll make a bet with you.
		Now, you play pretty good fiddle, boy, but give the devil his due.
		I bet a fiddle of gold against your soul, cause I think I'm better than you.
		The boy said, my name's Johnny and it might be a sin, but I'll take your bet you're gonna regret cause I'm the best.
		When I dance, they call me Margarina, and the boys, they take it so you went now.
		They all want me, they can't have me, so they all come and dance beside me.
		Mom with me, can't read me, and if you're good, I'll take you home with me.
		Hala tu cuerpo, alegría, Macarena, que tu cuerpo es pa'dar la alegría y cosa buena.
		Hala tu cuerpo, alegría, Macarena, eh Macarena.
		Hala tu cuerpo, alegría, Macarena, que tu cuerpo es pa'dar la alegría y cosa buena.
		Hala tu cuerpo, alegría, Macarena, eh Macarena.
		Now don't you hear about my boyfriend, the boy's name is Vitorino.
		I don't want him, can't stand him, even though he's so high.
		Now, come on, what was I supposed to do?
		He was out of town, and his two friends were so fine.
		Hala tu cuerpo, alegría, Macarena, que tu cuerpo es pa'dar la alegría y cosa buena.
		Hala tu cuerpo, alegría, Macarena, eh Macarena.
		Hala tu cuerpo, alegría, Macarena, que tu cuerpo es pa'dar la alegría y cosa buena.
		Premiere Radio Networks presents our spell somewhere inside.
		Let's go for Read, July 10th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're into open Lines.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anything you want to talk about is absolutely fair game.
unidentified		sad sound
unidentified		Now we take you back to the night of July 10th, 1997, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Art Bell The CDC, as you must have heard by now, has documented the first case of HIV transmission by a kiss.
		Actually, by extended, passionate kissing.
		So, you know, several years ago, they said impossible.
		Simply impossible.
		Now, in 1997, suddenly it is possible.
		Surprised?
		Not me.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Mr. Bell, can you hear me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hear you.
unidentified		Yeah, this is RTJ from St. Petersburg, Florida.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Sir, I'd just like to confirm a report that a man called you up either last night or the night before saying that Richard Hoagland was on another TV show.
unidentified		well another radio program that would be a girl grow show and he did confirm that uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		lander was on mars and he Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And he confirmed to me that he still believes it's a hoax.
unidentified		I can't believe he said that to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, he did.
unidentified		Well, on news, he said he was PO'd that he was mad because it was on Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, he said he said if.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I asked him about that, as you might imagine, when I talked to him, and he said, if it's there, then he's PO'd.
unidentified		He might have said that to you.
unidentified		That's not what he said on a radio program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, I'm just telling you what he told me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I didn't hear the show, so I'm telling you what he told me.
unidentified		Sir, have a great day.
unidentified		I love your show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		Take care.
		We will hear more about this Monday.
		It is a great mystery to me why he believes as he does.
		But that should be part of the interesting aspect of what we're going to do on Monday, I think.
		He will have time from now through the weekend to digest all of the information that's been coming all week long from NASA.
		And I'm sure we'll hear a definitive statement on Monday from Richard, and you can bet your bottom dollar there will be a lot of questions about exactly that.
		So we'll see.
		Welcome to the Rockies.
		You're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		This is Daniel in Portland.
		Yes.
		Hi.
		Yeah, I just want to say about Richard Holdland.
		I take great interest in what he speaks of, except I think he really is in denial about this, but I don't think he's wrong, totally, because I think that if he puts his energy, instead of denying the facts that it is on Mars, put its use, that maybe there's something behind the scenes that he hasn't seen yet, to the pattern that he always talks about.
		Maybe there's something that's continually going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I could have accepted many answers from Richard in a continuing, credible way.
		In other words, he could have said, and it might even be true, that the publicity that we generated caused NASA to rethink what they might have otherwise done, and so they landed on the fourth.
		I could have accepted that.
		Or I could have accepted a whole lot of different scenarios other than it's just untrue.
		The whole thing is fake.
		That is one I cannot accept.
unidentified		But the thing is, how he's always talking about tetrahedral, this map.
		Well, the fact of the matter is that it did land on 19.5, tetrahedral, and all the aspects of the spaceship itself.
		So right there, that says something.
		But it may be a slightly different scenario than his scenario that he told you on the air.
		That's what I figure, anyways.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we'll find out.
unidentified		Okay, thanks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		Yeah, that's where they came down, I believe, at 19.5.
		That's correct.
		And I found it interesting that Richard was not fascinated by, nor intrigued by, the fact that they were coming down at 19.5, because that would have fit in with so much of what he was saying.
		I could have accepted a lot of answers from Richard other than the one that he gave and still maintains.
		Now, I just learned he was on Gil Gross.
		I didn't know it was Gil Gross.
		I've never heard Gil Gross.
		We don't get him out here.
		But I did have an opportunity to speak to Richard the day following after the caller had made the comment, and I asked him about that.
		And he steadfastly maintained that he still thinks it's a fake, a fraud, and that he did say that if they had landed, he would be very angry about that.
		P.O.'d, to be specific.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello?
unidentified		I've got a problem.
		I have gone to at least 50 places to get credit.
		I have a bankruptcy on my credit.
		No one will give us credit nowhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's because you filed for bankruptcy.
unidentified		But why?
unidentified		I feel like, you know, if you've got the mark of the beast, you can't do nothing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well.
unidentified		Is that the mark of the beast?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long ago did you file for bankruptcy?
unidentified		92.
		We were cleared.
		It was a chapter 13.
		We paid everything off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it takes about seven years for that to be expunged, generally, from your record, right?
unidentified		Yeah, but I just don't.
		I was.
		You know, I feel like that...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, listen...
		In the meantime, you Essentially, suffer for your action.
		In other words, you were given an opportunity to clear all your debt.
		Chapter 13.
unidentified		Yeah, but we did clear our major ones.
unidentified		We have the titles to everything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Right.
		Well, so you're paying for what you did.
unidentified		Essentially.
unidentified		No one will give us a break, huh?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why would you expect them to?
unidentified		Well, I just thought maybe they might.
		I don't know.
		Why?
		Why?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Because he's working and we have an 85 truck and our television burnt up yesterday and we need a TV real bad and we can't get credit nowhere.
unidentified		We can't even get a secured MasterCard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, a secured one?
unidentified		No, we can't get a secured one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why not?
		They won't touch us.
		Well, now that I don't understand.
		A secured card means that you put up the money.
unidentified		Right.
		We can't even get one.
		I was very thoroughly, and I'm waiting.
		And I thought, well, if we're going to get a television, I was going to try to get a computer, you know, to get in the computer thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I wanted to get into the upcoming telecommunications thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I can't even do that.
unidentified		Well, I'm thoroughly disgusted, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
		I appreciate your call, but I'm afraid that I can't offer you very much sympathy.
		I understand the nature of bankruptcy.
		I don't.
		There are too many bankruptcies in America today.
		And frankly, I've got to be honest with you, ma'am.
		It doesn't sound to me like you've learned your lesson.
		You're dying to get out and get credit to buy a TV.
		Not exactly a life necessity.
		Or a computer.
		Not exactly a life necessity.
		And it sounds to me as if you had credit, you'd go out and get in trouble again.
		Bankruptcy is designed to give a person a second chance.
		And that doesn't mean to go out and rack up bills that you cannot pay and file another bankruptcy in seven years.
		So, I'm sorry.
		I appreciate your call, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for what you want.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		Hello.
		Calling in regards to, well, mainly about HARP, but those bands that one of your colleagues was talking about, they work with acupressure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		And the few articles that I've read about HARP, if you go to, I don't know if it's actually what university it was, but anyhow, it's a joint university and U.S. military project where they're actually, they state in the release that it's for communication purposes with submarines.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		But the dark side of it is the fact that a lot of people believe that it can actually be used.
unidentified		Well, what they do is they heat up parts of the ionosphere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're going to actually heat it and blow a hole in it.
unidentified		That's one of the theories that possibly could happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they're going to try to do that.
unidentified		Yeah, well, that's how it works.
		But the theory with punching a hole through it hasn't actually been proven.
		But it's all based on Nikola Tesla's work.
		The scariest part is the fact that they believe that certain frequencies can actually be used in warfare in order to affect troops.
		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know.
unidentified		So that's basically it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir.
		Thank you very much.
		Dr. Nick Begich has been on my program many times in the past discussing HAARP, and I suppose it's about time we got an update.
		Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
unidentified		This is Randy from Mount Lake Terrace, Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yes, I was very intrigued with your interview with Stan Tennon the other night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that was really something.
unidentified		Oh, yes, it was.
		And what I wanted to say is I've studied some Buddhism and noticed that some of the scholars in Japan had done much of the same thing with the Lotus Sutra.
		And what they derived from it was some characters that they put into a mandala and used with a chant called Namyo Horinge Kyo, the title of the Lotus Sutra.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's Nishrin Shoshu Soka Gakkai, sir, from Japan.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm very familiar with it.
unidentified		Yeah.
		But I just noticed a similarity with that.
		I was born and raised Catholic, so I am looking forward to seeing listening to your guest tomorrow night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Father Martin.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He is.
unidentified		I've heard your interviews with him.
unidentified		They're very, very fascinating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there you are.
unidentified		Well, thank you very much, Art.
unidentified		And have a good night now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		I'm going to try as much as possible to have a sort of a night of the audience with Father Malachi tomorrow night.
		Father Martin, actually.
		And in the past, we, well, actually, we have had quite a bit of open lines, but I'm going to try and do a little bit more of it tomorrow night.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		I got one question for you about the show you had on the pyramids way back.
unidentified		Was that room in the Great Pyramid that they were secretly digging in?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Great Pyramid, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the King's to Queens Chamber.
unidentified		Okay, because I saw a thing today, and I think it was the other one they sent the robot up to.
		The other thing was a little piece of information I just found out about Arizona having to do with the Grand Canyon.
		I was wondering if you ever heard of a guy named David Hatcher Childress.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		He wrote a bunch of books, Lost Cities of North America, this and that, a bunch of lost cities.
		Well, this one, 1909, April 5th, the Arizona Gazette.
		This guy named Tim Cade coming down the Colorado saw some strange cave.
		Yes.
		Goes up there, goes down in, discovers a bunch of artifacts that he thought was Chinese.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		Sent them to the Smithsonian.
		Nothing was ever said to me much about it.
		But if you look, I suppose on microfees, you can get a copy of this up on the website.
		It's really interesting.
		I can read the whole thing, but it'd take me probably 20 minutes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you very much for the information.
		Of course, I am familiar with the monster in the Grand Canyon.
		Everybody knows about that.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		Scott from Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		First time I ever tried to call.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, here you are.
unidentified		I got about five topics I want to run by real quick.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		First of all, Richard Hoagland.
		Yes.
		Okay, so he looks bad right now.
		I'm going to wait until after the 20th and see what really happens.
		And I don't see him rethinking anything.
		I see him coming up with new and different data points and eventually coming to a conclusion.
		So I'm not going to come out here and say he's wrong and get on his case the way certain people have recently.
		So that's all in him.
		Secondly, electric cars.
		I think you're all wet on that idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		Yes.
		I work kind of in the battery industry.
		And to me, the big problems are charging them, first of all, is going to take current from somewhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I acknowledge that, I think.
unidentified		I think if everybody had an electric car tomorrow, the power grid would crumble in moments.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you were listening to what I said, I said concurrent with that, you would have to be developing new sources of cleaner energy with which to charge those cars, or you would gain nothing because you've got to use coal or oil to generate the electricity.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To me, the problem is, That's really an important fact.
		Don't just say write and gloss over it.
		Develop solar energy, develop more energy with water, with even wave energy, all different kinds of cleaner energy, and then electric cars, and then you have really accomplished basic.
unidentified		My problem with the electric car is that batteries are, first of all, they're very inefficient.
		You've got to put a lot more into them than you get out of them.
		Secondly, the one thing about internal combustion engines is you can pull it to your gas station and recharge in five minutes and drive for six hours.
		You're never going to be able to do that with a battery.
		It's just it takes too long to charge.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Never say never.
unidentified		You're right.
		I'll never say never.
		The woman with the bankruptcy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		There's nothing in the world stopping her from buying a computer or television tomorrow if she saves her money for a little bit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Cash.
unidentified		If she can't save for a few months, then she shouldn't buy it on credit anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I really have very little sympathy for her.
unidentified		Okay, all right.
		My last point is somebody can check me on this if I'm wrong.
		I think directly opposite the Earth from the Great Pyramids, or from Giza and the Pyramids, I believe is about 800 miles due south of Tahiti in the middle of the Pacific.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		I don't think there's anything there.
		And maybe on the bottom of the ocean there is, but I believe it's somebody can check me on that, but I think it's due south of Tahiti by 800 or 1,000 miles or so in the South Pacific.
		Fascinating.
		I'm in the middle of Howard Stern country here, but if I could only listen to one talk show, it would be the Art Bell Show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night, Art.
		Thank you.
		Good night.
		Howard's all right.
		Howard's Howard's all right.
		And you know what?
		I actually enjoyed his movie.
		And I think that I wonder how many of you saw it.
		It was quite good.
		Really quite good.
		I don't know how much the general audience would enjoy it, but if you were either A, a Howard Stern fan, or B, in broadcasting, I think you would enjoy it.
		Because it documented the fights he had with NBC in New York, and it was fascinating.
		Absolutely fascinating.
		And anyway, so there you are.
		That's my comment.
		Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello?
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes?
unidentified		Is this Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I'm the only one here.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		I'm Nathan from Kansas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Um, I'm listening on real audio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		I have one question.
unidentified		Actually, two.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Two, huh?
unidentified		I was watching a program on TV, and are aliens demons?
unidentified		Fallen angels from heaven?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're asking me?
unidentified		Mm-hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Beats the hell out of me.
unidentified		Because, like, it was the 700 club.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
unidentified		And they were saying how aliens were fallen angels.
unidentified		They were demons.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Demons.
unidentified		Mm-hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Might be.
unidentified		Um.
unidentified		And about that moon landing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Um.
unidentified		Why weren't the stars moving in the background?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why weren't the stars moving?
		Well, I'm going to hit you with the same question.
		Generally, as a matter of fact, you couldn't see the stars.
		I didn't see him, did you?
unidentified		Well, in some...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The answer is that the cameras that were being used really didn't pick up starlight.
		If you doubt that, take your own home camera on a nice, clear, starry night and go point it at the sky.
		And what you'll generally see on the playback is zero.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Alright, and that's what we got, essentially, was zero.
unidentified		And have you gotten my emails?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And one other thing, if you were going to fake it, wouldn't you put in stars?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Because I just had to ask that.
unidentified		And did you get my emails?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How would I know that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How can I answer that?
unidentified		I don't know.
		Because I can't say my last name.
		Anyways.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then I can't answer your question.
unidentified		I don't know why I asked it, anyways.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you very much for the call.
		Yeah, how would I answer that question?
		You're a relatively anonymous person, other than giving me a first name, and I get 300 to 400 emails a day.
unidentified		Da-da.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you ask me, did I get your email?
		I don't know, had you described the content of your email to me, I might have been able to answer that question.
		But I use a kind of a system of triage with email, trying to eliminate the spam, which is about a third of every day's daily email, and then trying to decide, based on titles, what is important beyond that.
		So if it's really urgent, say so in your email title.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Premiere Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 1997.
		Coast to Coast AM from July
		10, 1997.
		Coast to Coast AM from July
		Coast to Coast AM from July 10, 1997.
		10, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		somewhere in time tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 10th 1997 Good morning from the high desert this is uh radio as it happens whatever it is we talk about from Jim in Oceanside California Good morning Art first discovered you about three years ago in Honolulu got several diverse questions What is the latest in harp activity?
		Actually Jim I need to find out about that I don't have an update for you Is the woodpecker signal still emanating from Russia?
		There I can answer you.
		No, it is not.
		Three, are your guests paid?
		No, the answer is no.
		I have never, in all my years of radio, ever paid a guest.
		And four, do you think it's the nicotine in cigarettes that does the damage, or is it the added chemicals?
		And to that one, I have no answer.
		I don't know.
		And I'm not sure I want to know, he says, as he observes his own burning cigarette, and observes his nicotine stained fingers.
		Ha ha ha ha.
unidentified		we take you back to the night of July 10 1997 on Art Bell somewhere in time Well okay here's a fax from an unsigned person with no fax header.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, they're usually cowardly like this Referring to the lady who had the bankruptcy that I had not very much sympathy for because she couldn't get a TV or a computer or whatever.
		Um hey Mr. Better Then play your song for someone else When the country is based on worthless wages, how can anyone get credit let alone pay bills?
		I guess you've never been there in this reality.
		Well you know what Mr. Um I won't identify myself by facts.
		You're full of great big wet brown horse poop.
		I have spent uh I've never been there in this reality, huh?
		Uh yes, I'm making more money now than I have at any point in my life previously.
		But I am now 52 years old and I have been in radio for 30 years and anybody who's been in radio can tell you that I spent a great deal of my time starving to death, generally losing more money than I made, generally falling behind, generally having credit problems.
		So you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
		You have no idea what you're talking about.
		And in all those years, I never declared bankruptcy.
		I could have, but I didn't.
		I don't fault the lady for filing Chapter 13.
		That's her business.
		But there is a penalty you pay when you do that.
		And generally you cannot get credit for about seven years.
		And that's what I was trying to tell her.
		But for you to come at me and tell me that I don't know what it's like to make low wages, I'm telling you that you're full of crap.
		That I've lived a long life now.
		And the great majority of it was spent payday to payday like just about everybody else in the world.
		So you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
		And moreover, sending a fax like this without a header or an ID or a signature at the bottom is the act of an absolute loser, coward, kind of person, which is what I assume you are.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Well, good morning, Art.
unidentified		This is Floyd in Houston.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Floyd.
unidentified		How are you doing, sir?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm just fine.
unidentified		You know, of course, we don't get you until 1 o'clock and we lose you at 4, but I called anyway because I wanted to talk to you.
		I needed to ask you what award you won.
		See, I have missed that, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I was awarded the sitting here on my wall.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's the best male talk show host of the year.
unidentified		Congratulations, man.
		You deserve it.
		I am so glad for you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		A couple of quick questions for you.
		Sure.
		Have you heard any more from this, your so-called time traveler that was going to call you back in a month?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I had one time traveler about an hour ago.
unidentified		Yeah, I heard him.
unidentified		I think he's still a space cadet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The other one, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I expect to hear back from him, though.
unidentified		Yeah, you know, he had made some presentations.
unidentified		Yeah, he had accurate predictions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They came to pass.
unidentified		Yeah.
		And I'm real curious about that.
		I'm looking forward also to next week hearing Richard Hoagland again.
		I'm sort of on the fence as to whether I agree with him or you.
		And you remember the first time I called you, I told you I was worried about myself because I found myself agreeing with you so much.
		And I still do.
		I don't worry about myself so much, but I still agree with you just a whole lot.
		And man, I'm still trying, a whole group of us down here, are petitioning KTRH to put your entire program on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's the way to do it.
unidentified		And they have explained to me that they've got contracts, and you're wedged in between two segments of Jim Bohannon, of all people.
unidentified		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Jimbo really loves my butt, you know.
unidentified		I gather that from talking to you.
		I don't listen to him that much, so I haven't heard any of his remarks.
		But I wish we could get your entire program.
		Now, you do broadcast five hours a night, is that right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's correct, yes.
unidentified		And on Sunday, three hours?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is correct.
unidentified		Okay, yeah, well, we get all of the Dreamland, but we don't get all of it.
unidentified		Well, I say we get all of it, but we get it starting at 1 o'clock.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm on the air 28 hours a week.
unidentified		Well, that's enough to keep a body pretty busy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It does that, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, I've got to run, but thank you, and good luck with KTRH.
unidentified		I'm still trying, and bless you, man.
unidentified		We'll talk to you later.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For some reason, Jim Bohenan really hates me.
		I don't know why it is, but he really hates me.
		He was down at the award ceremony when I received this award.
		And he wouldn't get anywhere near me.
		He says all kinds of things about me on the air.
		And that's okay.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, is this our bell?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is, yes.
unidentified		Yeah, I was watching the movie today, Men in Black.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, how was it?
unidentified		It was really funny.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was it?
		I'm going to, yeah, I've heard it's a riot.
		I'm going to actually have a guest on who wrote a book called Men in Black, but it is serious, not funny.
unidentified		Really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Well, when I watched the movie, me and my friends were thinking about it, and we were always, you know, just we saw on TV, like, when Ronald Reagan was shot, the IRS and all them, the Secret Service, they were always wearing black suits and they had those wires hanging up to their ears.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They always do, yeah.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		We were wondering, and we had a discussion today, whether they were the men in black.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe so, in the sense that I think the men in black probably are from some portion of our government.
		I'm not sure exactly how to put that, but anyway, I'm going to interview somebody seriously on the subject, and we'll see.
		All right?
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, it'll be coming up.
		Listen to that.
		Yes, I am going to interview somebody who wrote a book called Men in Black.
		Not a comedy, but a serious presentation, I do believe.
		Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		It's Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good guess.
unidentified		Say, some time ago, somebody reported a couple of animals over in India killing and eating people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Young?
unidentified		Yes?
		Well, anyway, I have a friend in business that just came back from India.
		And so I asked him, I said, is it true?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Young?
unidentified		He says, yeah, but there's too many people in India.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So nobody misses them, huh?
unidentified		I guess so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a claim made by countries with a great deal of population.
		The Chinese, for example, have frequently said that they could withstand losing, what is it, one in four, one in five of their population in a nuclear war without even missing them.
		Now, I hadn't really heard the story about a couple of people being eaten in India.
		But it wouldn't surprise me.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		How you doing, Art?
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn your radio off, please.
unidentified		It is off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
unidentified		Yeah, I'm a time traveler.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From?
unidentified		From way ahead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how far?
unidentified		36 AS.
		AF?
		AS.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		AS?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		After.
unidentified		After start.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		After start?
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Probably talking to you way beyond your knowledge.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Probably.
		After start.
		What is start?
unidentified		The beginning of new civilization.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So we're not even up to that point yet.
unidentified		Oh, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So actually, then you're from many thousands of years in our future.
unidentified		Yes, I am.
		And I just, what I'm doing is actually called time.
		It's kind of like time surfing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Time surfing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mm-hmm.
unidentified		And council has given me permission To do this tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why have our language skills not improved to a greater degree in that many thousands of years?
unidentified		Languages change a lot over the years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
unidentified		We.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, if you were to say something in your native tongue, which I would not be permitted to do at this time, or I would be immediately disconnected.
unidentified		Really?
		Really?
		But I could tell you some interesting things, though.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm all ears.
unidentified		The year 2012 is an interesting year, like going through my time.
unidentified		I see where you guys have great predictions, but it's nothing what you guys think it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No?
		Nope.
		Well, don't let it be a cliffhanger.
		What occurs in 2012?
unidentified		2012, and this is about all they're going to let me say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're going to have to take whatever nugget we can take.
unidentified		Is will be the year when we will acknowledge space aliens.
unidentified		A few people will acknowledge space aliens in the year 2012.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, does that mean they're going to land?
unidentified		Yes.
		Cool.
		And the whole world will know it.
		It ain't going to be all this surprise stuff now.
		It will be.
		It will just happen one day, boom.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did they have to teach you to use slang like ain't?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You were programmed.
unidentified		Oh, no, no, no.
		I went to school and learned.
		I've studied ancient times.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Learned how to sound 20th century-ish.
unidentified		Correct.
		Plus, in order for me to talk, this is...
		No, it would be more or less if you went back to someone 20 B.C. Or before Christ, as you guys call it, religion has changed too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean we no longer view Christ as the Son of God?
unidentified		No, he did.
		I can't.
		They won't let me see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, look, I don't want you to do anything that would cause the world to suddenly disappear.
unidentified		Oh, no, no, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, a paradox.
unidentified		No, that's the problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've got to be very careful about that.
unidentified		This is true.
		And Council has given me very good permission.
		Been very good to me in letting me speak to you tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It has been an honor.
unidentified		So I'd just like to let you know that's what will be happening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		There you have it, folks.
		2012, they land.
		That's all he's allowed to say.
		That was really good the way they got him to say ain't and stuff.
		Very 20th century-ish.
		What's to the Rockies?
		You're on the air.
unidentified		Hey, Arch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Calling from Idaho Falls.
unidentified		It's the Presbyterian here, 590.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And 5,000 watts of attitude day and 1,000 watts of directional at night.
unidentified		Hey, I know you're interested both in time and reincarnation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I am, yes.
unidentified		And I was thinking about this the other day, and as I just call you and bounce this off you and all your minions out there.
		You know, a lot of people think that time is kind of a linear thing, and of course, for example, Native Americans see it as a circle.
		what would you think about the possibility of people being reincarnated into the past?
		um...
		hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's an interesting proposition.
unidentified		Ever thought of it that way?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean.
		Maybe those who have done well get reincarnated Into the future.
		Those who have not done well get reincarnated into the past, kind of like getting held back in school.
unidentified		Or you could look at it another way.
unidentified		Perhaps somebody's certain karma, whatever it is, and whatever, say, lessons they need to learn, could maybe only do that in the past.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe there's something that they need to go back and maybe when you die, you get a choice.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Either you go back in time or you go to summer school.
unidentified		But you know, I've never heard anybody look at reincarnation in that way, just on the if you if you look in time as a as a just a circle.
unidentified		Well, maybe you could get put any place on the on the thing, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There actually, though, are people who work in hypnosis that claim Yes.
unidentified		Because they'd talk about stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Yes.
		So that gives some credence to what you're saying.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		Well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pretty neat idea.
unidentified		It gets my mind going all the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know what my son said to me earlier today?
		What's that?
		He was thinking about the Big Bang, and he said, Dad, I think that time and space began at exactly the same time.
		Okay.
unidentified		But did it end at the same time before?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I asked him what was occurring one second before that time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And he went into deep thought, and he hasn't said a word to me since.
unidentified		He overloaded his poor little neurons.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, thanks for the call.
		That's right.
		I expect him to come back later today with some sort of answer to that.
		But, you know, he was thinking.
		And he was thinking about the Big Bang.
		I've got a program, thanks to Richard Hoagland, called Redshift.
		Boy, is it good.
		And it shows the Big Bang.
		And he was watching that on the computer, and that set him to thinking about time and the nature of time and space.
		And he said, I think they both began at the same time.
		Which was a good comment to make.
		But I did.
		I asked him, well, then, what occurred one second before that?
		And he had not much else to say.
		We'll see what he comes up with.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
		Hi, Art.
unidentified		I'm not calling you from the future.
		I'm not a traveler.
		I'm actually calling you from a place called the Present.
		The Present?
		Yes, The Present.
		Anyway, I'll get into site.
		Could you tell me what station you're at in Chicago?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		WLS.
unidentified		Oh, beautiful, because I want to call some people tomorrow to make sure they listen to Malachite Martin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		890 in Chicago.
unidentified		You've got it.
unidentified		Hey, thanks a lot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Take care.
		Bye-bye.
		Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Oh, hi, Art.
unidentified		I'm really glad I got through.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Me too.
unidentified		That one guy that called in kind of annoyed me a little bit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which one?
unidentified		No, the one that was sort of making fun of things.
		I mean, he did and he didn't.
		I mean, I've seen some.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not sure who you're talking about yet.
unidentified		No, it doesn't matter.
		No, I've seen so many strange things.
		I was just going to relay a little message that, you know, with all these things that are happening, I mean, myself, I see them not as being what we think they are.
		It's more icons and symbols and such.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is this Richard Hoagland?
unidentified		Isn't it me?
		Yeah.
		No, no.
		Nope.
		No, no.
		Okay.
		But I mean, you know, I haven't heard your show for a couple of weeks.
		I've been working days.
		But I guess I was just wanting to say that, you know, be careful what you wish for.
		You just might get it.
		You know?
		I mean, I don't know how to explain that any other way than what it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One other thing, sir?
unidentified		What's that, sir?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A stitch in time saves nine.
unidentified		Well, you see, I've had experience with time, and it's not...
		But it's all now.
		You just don't have the apparatus to properly...
		Some people are able to see ahead in the pattern and behind in the pattern.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm told that time is nature's way of ensuring that not everything occurs at the same moment.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Yes, I would agree, because it's the whole nature of this place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would be very chaotic.
unidentified		Well, yes and no.
unidentified		I mean, it depends.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I think mostly yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, if there was not linear time, everything would be occurring at once, and it's already bad enough in linear time right now.
unidentified		You would understand, though, when you were young, as well as when you were old, and in the middle, you would understand who you were, where you are, and where you're going.
unidentified		You see, your life would be more of a circle instead of a chop-chop line.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a good point.
		I appreciate the call, sir.
		Thank you.
		We're woefully out of time.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
		Going once, going twice.
		Yes, hello.
unidentified		Yes.
		Hi, Art.
		This is Diane from California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Diane.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We have only seconds.
unidentified		Seconds.
unidentified		I just a couple of things, and really quick, I wanted to tell you on your two experiments that we did telepathically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I got a little concerned because it happened in the southwest and Phoenix.
		I'm in California.
		You're in Nevada.
		Next one knows in Vegas.
		And you may have commented that you're thinking about doing it a third time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I am, yes.
unidentified		I don't know.
unidentified		I think they may come knocking on your door and ask for where's your buffet, you know?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they might.
unidentified		They might just be there, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Look, the odds of Karram being fried twice are really...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do it.
unidentified		Good night, world.
unidentified		Visitors also.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, visitors also.

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