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July 9, 1997 - Art Bell

02:45:32

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Pending Cassini Launch - Karl Grossman

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01:12:28

karl grossman

35:26

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unidentified		Welcome to Art Bell Somewhere in Time, tonight featuring coast-to-coast a.m. from July 9th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening or good morning, depending on your time zone.
		Prolific as they are in our coverage area from the Tahitian and Hawaiian Island chains in the west all the way east to the U.S. Virgin Islands, south well into South America, north all the way to the Pole and worldwide on the Internet, the Old Internet, courtesy of AudioNet in Dallas.
		Thank you, folks.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		And we are now on Mars.
		Soon, we are due to go to Saturn with a mission called Cassini.
		It'll be a four-year close-up study of the Saturn system, including the planet's atmosphere and magnetic field, the rings, and several moons.
		The mission represents a rare opportunity to gain significant insights into major scientific questions about the creation of the solar system and the conditions that led to life here on Earth.
		In addition to a host of questions specific to the Saturn system, as the best instrumented probe ever to be sent to another planet, Cassini will produce the most complete information about a planet system ever obtained.
		That is the upside.
		My guest coming up in a moment, Carl Grossman, has what may be the downside, at least certainly something that we should all be aware of.
		and just wait until you hear what it is.
		Transcription by CastingWords Well, all right, I have experienced victory over my computer.
		And I, again, tonight, like my computer.
		Last night I had the Tri Studio Cams off.
		You know, we have three cameras here that take photographs of me as we do the program.
		And I may be soon adding a fourth that will be out of doors.
		I'm working on that now.
		Yesterday I had a computer torn totally apart in here, and it was so messy, I was embarrassed to have it on.
		So I finally got everything whooped, and the studio cam is back on live tonight.
		So if you go to the website, you can take a look-see.
		That is www.artbell.com.
		We're on Mars.
		We're talking about going to Saturn.
		And now comes Carl Grossman.
		Carl Grossman has for 30 years specialized in investigative reporting on environmental and energy issues, for which he has received the George Polk Award, among many other honors.
		He is a full professor of journalism at the State University of New York College at Old Westbury, where he is the coordinator of the college's media and communications department.
		Books he has authored include Power Crazy, Cover Up What You Are Not Supposed to Know About Nuclear Power, and The Forthcoming, The Wrong Stuff, The Space Program's Nuclear Threat to Our Planet.
		Articles by Grossman on environmental and energy issues have appeared in The New York Times, Newsday, The Nation, Mother Jones, The Village Voice, The Globe, The Philadelphia Enquirer, Environmental Action, Extra, The Boston Phoenix, The San Francisco Bay Guardian, The Crisis, Common Cause Magazine, and so forth and so on.
		He is program director and vice president of EnviroVideo, which is a New York-based company that produces environmental television documentary and news programming.
		He hosted, wrote, and co-produced EnviroVideo's documentary Nukes in Space, the nuclearization and weaponization of the heavens.
		Wait a minute, we don't have weapons up there, do we?
		Which received the gold medal at the WorldFest Houston International Film Festival and Three Mile Island Revisited, which, by the way, received the silver medal at the WorldFest Festival.
		Among the courses he teaches at the State University of New York College at Old Westbury are environmental journalism, investigative reporting, and politics of media.
		He lectures widely on environmental and energy issues.
		Here is Carl Grossman.
		Carl, welcome to the program.
		A pleasure, Art.
		I read you a little ditty there on the upside of why go to Saturn.
		It is subtitled New Knowledge.
		In other words, here we have an opportunity to explore a planet which will bring us much information about our own beginnings, I suppose.
		And that's highlighted by the fact we're on Mars now with Sojourner and Rover, and we're getting all these photographs back showing all these cool rocks.
		Now, it is the Cassini mission, I believe, that will go to Saturn, correct?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
		So why not go to Saturn?
		Look at all the wonderful world of information we know about Mars now.
		A great flood.
		Barnacle build a rock.
		Let's see, what else do we know?
		There's quartz, a lot of quartz on Mars, and it's very Earth-like.
		So we are learning things about Mars.
		And when is Cassini due to launch?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		October 6th of this year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What are your concerns?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have no problem whatsoever with this space program.
		I don't think there's anybody on Earth who saw the pictures from Mars in the last several days who wasn't thrilled.
		I mean, it's just wonderful.
		It's just terrific.
		But the issue to me is let's explore space safely.
		Let's not do it in a way that a portion of life on Earth might be destroyed in the process.
		And my concern has to do with the use of nuclear technology for various space devices and the possibility of some of the nuclear poisons, the radionucleides involved, being dispersed and affecting people and other life back here on Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here on Earth.
		Well, that is a good concern.
		What exactly is going to be on the Cassini mission that concerns you?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Well, they're going to get electricity.
		This isn't power, electricity from plutonium.
		In fact, an isotope of plutonium which is extraordinarily toxic.
		Not the plutonium-239 that most people are familiar with, stuff that atomic bombs use as fuel or is built up in nuclear plants.
		But the fuel, it's plutonium oxide.
		Primarily what it's composed of is plutonium-238, which is 280 times more radioactive than 239.
		And they're using this in what are called radioisotope thermoelectric generators, two, three of them on Cassini, to produce a very modest amount of electricity, 745 watts on an average, for the instruments on Cassini.
		We could have a problem on launch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're going to what kind of vehicle are they using?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it a Saturn IV?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		No, it's a Titan IV.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Titan IV II.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		The Saturn's were from the old Apollo program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, you're right.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Unfortunately, they're not building them.
		In fact, there's some thinking that if they had a bigger rocket like the old Saturn, they might be able to avoid...
		But they're going to use a Titan IV.
		And the Titan IV doesn't have a 100% record of good launches.
		In fact, in 1993, at the Vandenberg Air Force Base, there was a launch of a Titan IV, which went haywire 101 seconds after launch, blew a spy satellite system to smithereens.
		19 launches of Titan IVs, this one very serious accident, so it's about a 5% failure rate.
		If the Titan IV carrying Cassini blows on October 6th, if they go ahead with this launch, there is a possibility of some of the plutonium being released, particularly if a hard surface is struck by some of the modules containing the plutonium and a possibility of a dispersal thus in the neighboring communities.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much plutonium oxide, 238, will be on it?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		It's 72.3 pounds, which is more plutonium fuel.
		We have flown, at this point, 25 plutonium fuel.
		The U.S. has 25 plutonium fuel space shots, and this is the most plutonium, the 72 pounds, that has ever been put on a space device.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		There is some plan.
		Now, I'm not quite clear on what they're going to do.
		There are two concerns.
		One is the launch itself.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I understand that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The other concern, though, somehow, are they coming back to Earth or are they going to use Earth as a slingshot effect to head out towards Saturn or what's the deal?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Kind of both are.
		They're coming back, as they said in that old movie.
		The plutonium, as I say, isn't being used for propulsion.
		The Cassini probe is to be propelled in space by a very conventionally powered rocket, a centaur rocket, chemically fueled.
		Now, it doesn't have the power to get the Cassini probe directly from Earth to its final destination, which is Saturn and Saturn's moons, particularly Titan.
		And thus, NASA has devised a scheme, a flyby scheme, or a gravity assist maneuver, that's what NASA calls it, in which Cassini will be sent instead of to Saturn first off, to Venus.
		And it's going to circle Venus twice and pick up a little velocity because of Venus's gravity.
		And then in 1999, in August of 1999, it's to come hurtling back at the Earth for a flyby.
		They make use of Earth's gravity.
		It's to come in at 42,300 miles an hour.
		And it's to be, the original plan was for it to be 312 miles high.
		Now there's some discussion by NASA putting it up a little higher, 500 miles high.
		But in any case, this thing is going to whip in at essentially 300 to 500 miles high.
		and if there is a miscalculation that there is a problem that is an accident and that happen all the time in space just look at the Mir space station event just last week or of course the Challenger accident but if there is a mishap and this thing doesn't whip in at that right altitude Yeah.
		Well, if it did that and the Earth's atmosphere is 75 miles high, so we're not talking much of a margin of error.
		It's not coming in at 20,000 miles high.
		It's coming in just a few hundred miles high.
		It would disintegrate.
		And a good portion, and NASA admits, they don't admit it in their PR.
		Their PR, they keep talking about these modules being like bank vaults.
		They are quite a PR operation.
		But in fact, you look at the environmental impact statement, which can be obtained from NASA, the final environmental impact statement for the Cassini mission, what it says, and I'm reading right here from page 4, hyphen 51,
		for all the re-entry cases studied, about 32 to 34% of the fuel from the three RTGs, those are the radioisotope thermoelectric generators, is expected to be released at high altitude.
		Now this is the real worrisome thing.
		the fraction of the fuel particles released during the reentry, estimated to be reduced to vapor or respirable particles, ranges from 66% for very shallow reentries to about 20% for steep reentries.
		The problem with plutonium is that if it becomes a dust and people breathe in that dust or vapor...
		It's horrendous.
		Plutonium has been described over and over again as the most toxic substance known.
		And it's the most toxic, it's the most lethal.
		It's not water soluble.
		And if a person just breathes in that microscopic pin dot, even smaller than a pin dot of plutonium, it lodges in the lung, it doesn't wash out, it irradiates that portion of the lung, and the impact can easily be lung cancer.
		So you're talking here about, I mean, he has NASA admitting others, including a whistleblower at NASA, formerly with NASA, 30 years with NASA, who I've interviewed at length, Alan Cohn.
		He says he doesn't expect 32% to 34% of the plutonium being released.
		He says 100% is more like it.
		But in any case, even NASA is admitting pounds of plutonium.
		And then it goes on in the environmental impact statement in terms of how many people on the planet could be affected.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How many?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Well, this is page 476.
		Let me just read it because otherwise people wouldn't believe it.
		In the unlikely event an inadvertent re-entry occurred, approximately 5 billion, this would be of the estimated 7 to 8 billion world population at the time could receive 99% or more of the radiation exposure.
		Now let me hasten to say that NASA then goes on to say that this is going to mean only 2,300 fatal cancers.
		I don't know, only, but they say 2,300 fatal cancers.
		But I've had this NASA data looked over by a variety of independent scientists, and they project fatalities far above 2,000.
		They go anywhere from Dr. John Goffman, University of California, professor emeritus who was with the Manhattan Project, isolated some of the first usable portions of pieces of plutonium during the war.
		A giant in the field with MD, PhD, he says you're looking more at perhaps a million deaths, 900,000 to a million.
		Dr. Ernest Sternglass, professor emeritus, radiological physics, University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine, he speaks about 10 to 40 million deaths if this plutonium oil gets out.
		And again, that goes back to my concern, you know, is going to Saturn is wonderful.
		It would be like the Mars mission.
		We learn a lot.
		But do we want this kind of catastrophe to occur, particularly if it's not necessary?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, here's what I've heard.
		And this is the next point that we should talk about.
		As you mentioned, they say that they're in bank vault-like conditions.
		Frankly, I live out here in the desert adjacent to the area where they're going to be putting all this really nasty stuff that's supposed to be taken care of, will be custodial appearance for it for tens of thousands of years.
		So I have a lot of concern about this sort of thing.
		But, you know, they run advertisements here in Nevada showing these casks that they're going to be keeping this high-level waste in.
		And they show them dropped from helicopters.
		They show them dropped out of the back of trucks.
		They show them in collisions with trucks.
		And they've done everything but have a woman with high heels kick them.
		And, you know, trying to convince us that these things are safe.
		Now, I would imagine with 72.3 pounds of plutonium oxide, which might do what you just described, they would indeed have this in a very, very safe container that would withstand any kind of re-entry.
		Right?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		No.
		I mean, it would be great if that was the situation.
		But they're not.
		I mean, I'm a journalist.
		I'm a reporter.
		And I frankly don't.
		I don't believe the PR spin.
		Particularly in investigative reporting.
		You kind of stay away from the PR characters.
		You really want people who, often whistleblowers, people from the inside.
		Sure.
		The actual documents.
		And here, Dr. Horace Pola, he's a gentleman, worked 22 years for NASA contractors at the Kennedy Space Center.
		And here's the way he describes the shielding of the plutonium on Cassini.
		Fingernail thin.
		It's a joke.
		The so-called shielding, says Pola, this is a misstatement, consists of an iridium alloy shell with a thickness of 0.022 inches, or 41 28ths of an inch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, wait a minute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wouldn't keep my money in that.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's sure not a bank for it.
		That was bank force.
		Willie Sutton would have ended up to be a multi-millionaire.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, listen.
		Oh, my.
		Carl, hold on.
		We're at the bottom of the hour, and we'll be right back.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 9, 1997.
		Coast AM from July 9, 1997.
		Coast AM from July 9, 1997.
		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time, tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 9th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Imagine 72.3 pounds of plutonium oxide coming back at Earth like a bullet at 42,000 miles an hour, somewhere between 200 and 500 miles above Earth to slingshot it towards Saturn.
		Now, I'm sure that NASA would tell us nothing can go wrong.
		And in effect, they are telling us that.
		But even should it go wrong, they're telling us that they've got this stuff in bank vault-like conditions, right?
		So we're going to once again lay out these bank vault-like conditions for you in a moment.
		Listen, tomorrow night, John Kirby is going to be here at the beginning of the program, and he will bring with him some interviews that I think you're going to be very interested in.
		Walter Hout, who was the base PR officer at Roswell.
		Frank Kaufman, one of the men in charge of the cleanup at Roswell, will be interviewed.
		He'll play a very historic audio tape of Jesse Marcel Sr., now of course passed on, calling his son Jesse Marcel Jr., whom I've interviewed on this program.
		And you're going to hear a lot of very interesting stuff like Major Edwin Easley from the 509th Bomb Group, Provost Marshal, saying that he still can't talk about the incident because he's still sworn to secrecy.
		Colonel Thomas DuBose, chief of staff of the 8th Air Force, saying the balloon story was indeed a cover story to keep the press off General Ramey's back.
		So that should be a very interesting program.
		That's tomorrow night, John Kirby.
		all right uh...
		we will get back to our plutonium friend carl grossman but that that that in just a moment Now back to Carl Grossman.
		Carl, you're where?
		In New York?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		I am in New York.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		All right, let us now again discuss the bank vault conditions that this 72.3 pounds of plutonium is going to be encased in.
		So that should it come flying back, why, they will simply go to wherever this bank vault falls and pick it up intact and take it away safely, right?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what they would the impression that the PR people from NASA would like to lead.
		But as I say, Polar, and indeed he wrote a letter on the draft environmental impact statement for Cassini, where he goes through these measurements.
		And I should just perhaps add, it starts off with the 0.02 inches or 3, 1 28th of an inch of iridium.
		And then it's followed, he notes, by two graphite shells, each less than a quarter inch thick, insulating foil, and finally a quarter, 1 16th inch thin aluminum.
		And he says this is not hardly shielding at all.
		This isn't heavily shielded.
		And he goes on and on about the possibility here for, as he describes it, Dr. Poehler, the mother of all accidents if the plutonium gets out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, let's examine the facts.
		You described the shielding.
		What exactly would that really withstand?
		What do we know?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		It wouldn't withstand much.
		It wouldn't withstand a serious flyby accident where the thing would be coming in at 42,000 miles an hour.
		That re-entry scenario would, and again, NASA admits, would break up the modules containing the plutonium.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, they do admit that.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, yeah.
		It says, you know, for all re-entry cases studied, says the environmental impact statement, 32 to 34% of the fuel is expected to be released at high altitude, and it goes on, and a substantial amount of that could end up as vapor or respirable particles.
		Also, if this stuff hits a rock, I mean, if it falls down on the cement of the Cape Canaveral Air Station, but a launch is supposed to occur on October 6th in an accident, the cement will bust open this stuff.
		If it falls down, in fact, the rooting of Cassini is they'll first launch from Florida, then what they do is fly it over Africa.
		I mean, first the ocean, of course, then Africa.
		And they admit in the environmental impact statement.
		If there's an accident and the stuff, these modules fall on Africa.
		If they hit rocks on Africa, the plutonium gets out.
		And the next big, big concern is the flyby.
		So, you know, these are not bank faults whatsoever.
		Iridium is a very strong metal, of course.
		But we're talking here about a very, very strong likelihood of rupture in all these various cases.
		What NASA has going for it, I suppose, is the claim, and this is the basic defense, the likelihood, the probability of a catastrophic accident dispersing this plutonium.
		Slim.
		But that's very small.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, do you argue with their stats?
		I mean, let us discuss, For example, the Titan IV launch history.
		There you can calculate, based on the number of launches, what the chances are that this one would blow up.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what are the chances?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On all the Titan IVs we've launched, how many have blown up?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a little under, I mean, there's been a, there was Titan IIIs, and, you know, the Titan record is about 4%, 5% of failure.
		With chemically fueled rockets, I mean, you get into that kind of failure rate of a few percent.
		So, you know, we know there's a certain risk.
		Okay.
		On the flyby, though, I don't think we really, I mean, NASA is saying the likelihood of a flyby accident is one in a million.
		This is what they claim.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but they're going to aim this thing straight back roughly at Earth.
		I mean, when you're talking about the distances involved, coming within even 500 miles, the outside limit of Earth, is, I mean, just a hair miss.
		Right?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I agree.
		I think this is kind of like, frankly, three stooches go to space.
		To aim essentially a gun containing plutonium at your head, figuring you're just going to miss it slightly.
		No, I just think it's nuts.
		And in terms of the one in a million, I mean, how do they know?
		In science, you know because you've gotten empirical evidence.
		You've done enough experiments, enough tests, so you can figure it's a 5% failure rate on a Titan IV or what have you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, but when they're coming back, when they're going to use Earth's gravity as a slingshot to increase speed yet again and head out towards Saturn?
		They're going to be doing, presumably, mid-course maneuvers, burns, so that they come precisely at this 500 mile point.
		Correct?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've had a number of space vehicles that have had burn problems.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Haven't we?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, where they do a burn and it lasts a second or two longer or all of a sudden valves open and get stuck open and they keep burning.
		That happened to one of our spacecraft.
		I recall that it was going to Mars, I believe.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Mars Observer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		It's like goodbye, and nobody even knows to this day exactly what happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it went tumbling out of control, they think.
		Yes.
		Now, everything is dependent on those burns being accurate, because if they did a burn and suddenly it was headed for Earth and they couldn't do another burn to correct it, what would we do about that?
		I mean, she'd be coming in at 42,000 miles an hour with all this plutonium.
		And what steps could they take to stop it?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Once it's, I mean, if it's coming in too low, they can try to do corrections.
		But, I mean, accidents do happen.
		In fact, the current issue of Space News talks about this current Mars mission and then goes on about, this is towards the end of the editorial, space exploration is inherently a risky business.
		Things go wrong, as they did with the Mars Observer.
		So things could go wrong on the Cassini mission, on that flyby.
		They could easily go wrong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I accept that.
		But generally, when we talk about that, we're talking about the lives of astronauts or cosmonauts or even a possible explosion at the Cape at a launch.
		You know, these sorts of risks is, in my thinking, remembrance, is what we're discussing.
		Things go wrong.
		I agree.
		It's not a perfect science.
		But here we're talking about not the lives of seven astronauts.
		We're talking about millions of people on Earth.
unidentified		Yes.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Well, that to me, I mean, we're not all volunteers.
		I give it to the astronauts.
		What brave people.
		But here are the population of the Earth, and we shouldn't be anthropomorphic.
		It isn't just people.
		For example, here is a page from, again, I love documents because there you get often the unvarnished information.
		This is from the NASA Environmental Impact Statement for Cassini, page 4-72.
		Range of decontamination methods.
		And they talk about if the plutonium comes down on natural vegetation.
		So they say remove and dispose topsoil, relocate animals.
		Now, how is NASA going to run around after the chipmunks and the raccoons and relocate them?
		Or here, if it's agriculture, and Florida, of course, with all those citrus groves around the launch site, has to worry.
		Ban future agricultural land uses, says NASA, if the plutonium is spread all around.
		Destroy citrus and other perennial growing structures.
		Or here, if the plutonium ended up coming down on Los Angeles or here in New York or Paris or what have you, NASA says demolish summer oil structures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Demolish summer oil structures.
		In New York or L.A. This is going to take quite a lot of work.
		Relocate affected population permanently from NASA without tax money.
		And they're talking about relocating affected population permanently.
		I mean, the Cassini mission is to cost $3.4 billion.
		It's the single most expensive space shot ever.
		I mean, that's a lot of our tax money.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What would it cost to relocate everybody in New York City?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		In one portion of the environmental impact statement, they try to play around with numbers.
		And they talk about decontamination costs per acre and this and that.
		I mean, they don't get into how much it's going to cost for the U-Haul vans and the moving exactly, but they talk about decontamination.
		And I try to price it out, figure it out on the basis of they have, you know, millions per acre and so forth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		I mean I have a little calculator right on this desk and I try to use it and there wasn't enough zeros on the calculator.
		I had to sit with a pencil like back in school and it came to, I mean this is NASA's own estimate of a worst case scenario cleanup cost $10 trillion.
		$10 trillion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Trillion dollars.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Trillion dollars.
		But let's say the plutonium didn't spread around the entire footprint, which is, you know, most likely.
		Let's say 100th of the footprint.
		but then you're talking about hundred billion dollars i think you know it's Who's going to pay for this?
		And again, to me, it comes down to...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That part is not a mystery.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We will pay for it.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Well, money and lives.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, no matter where it comes down, whether it comes down here or in another foreign country, Paris, you mentioned, London, whatever, we, the American taxpayer, will pay for it.
		No doubt, relocating.
		now if it comes down on london were really in trouble uh...
		because we're going to end up uh...
		with london relocating to somewhere here i don't know there is a You say that this mission is going to take how long?
		Four years?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Ultimately, it gets to reach Saturn in the year 2004.
		So it would be launched in October.
		We're talking about seven or eight-year mission.
		Then it'll go around the moons, Titan, and so forth.
		No, but an eight-year mission.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Eight-year mission total.
		Is there another way we could be doing this?
		How much power is this thing generating?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's the key, I think, here in terms of the risk, that it's not necessary to have this gargantuan risk at all.
		It's 745 watts to be generated by the plutonium.
		I mean, that's like seven light bulbs.
		And in fact, high-efficiency solar cells could do the job if NASA would allow solar to be used on Cassini.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so why, look, I note, for example, we're using solar panels on Mars.
		We use them in orbit very effectively, producing high amounts of electricity.
		So then why not use them with Cassini?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		What's from?
		That's the central question of this whole thing.
		Because in fact, the European Space Agency back in 94 with a company called Deutsche Aerospace did a breakthrough on high-efficiency solar cells.
		In fact, I have their announcement right here.
		They talk about how these new high-efficiency cells with the highest efficiency ever achieved in solar arrays will replace plutonium-powered systems on deep space probes.
		ESA expects the new high-performance silicon cells could possibly be used in deep space missions.
		It goes on in 1995, a physicist from ESA said, give us a few years and a few dollars and we'd do solar for your Cassini mission.
		And in fact, I was in Germany a few months ago and Gerhard Strobel of Deutsche Aerospace said that you couldn't do it immediately.
		You couldn't just slap on solar panels on the Cassini probe.
		But redesign the probe and we'd have a solar system ready.
		In fact, Strobel stressed that the European Space Agency will be sending up the Rosetta space probe beyond the orbit of Jupiter to rendezvous with a comet, and it's going to be equipped not with the plutonium system like Cassini has, but with solar.
		So, I mean, the technology is here, and Saturn is further than Jupiter.
		And as Dr. Michio Kaku, professor of nuclear physics at the City University of New York, says, if you couldn't get to the last mile to Saturn with the solar, because the sun becomes a little spot in the sky way, way out there, some long-life fuel cells could take it on too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that what the problem is?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, the sun is not of sufficient strength by the time you're out near Saturn?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sure, but with these new solar cells, according to Strobel, the European Space Agency, well, for example, just looking at their announcements, spacecraft operating at a very large distance from the sun experience a solar intensity which is only about 5% or less than near the Earth.
		But then it goes on that, however, these solar arrays, these new solar cells that have been developed, achieve a 25% efficiency.
		This is a breakthrough and so forth.
		So even at distances that years ago, no one thought you could harvest solar power.
		You can't.
		The reason that it's not being done has nothing to do with the technology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, people don't understand necessarily what 745 watts is.
		So let me explain to you all.
		745 watts is about half the amount of power used by my hair dryer.
		That's about right.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		So it's not a very great deal of power, and it is a very great deal of plutonium.
		Why is it necessary?
		I mean, I thought plutonium, for example, was very, very efficient.
		Why do you need 72.3 pounds, for heaven's sakes?
		That's an awful lot of plutonium.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Well, the plutonium that is used in this space probe and has been used in some of the earlier shots, U.S. shots, and in fact has been used on satellites until there was a big angle.
		I mean, we're not talking here chicken little if the sky can fall.
		In fact, in a way it has.
		In 1964, the SNAP-9A, which was a plutonium system on a U.S. satellite with 2.1 pounds of plutonium, fell from the sky.
		It disintegrated.
		The 2.1 pounds of plutonium spread all over the planet.
		Dr. John Goffman, I mentioned him before, University of California at Berkeley, has long connected the SNAP 9A accident with an increased level of lung cancer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, let me tell you, I saw some very, very interesting cancer stats indicating that the amount of cancer for American men since World War II is up 300%.
		Now, I just cannot imagine why that would be.
		That's non-smoking-related cancer, by the way.
		I'll tell you what, hold tight.
		We'll come back after the top of the hour and continue with this.
		72.3 pounds of plutonium oxide.
		We'll be back.
unidentified		You'll listen to Art Bell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 9, 1997.
		Coast to Coast AM from July
		9, 1997.
		Coast to Coast AM from July 9, 1997.
		Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight's program originally aired July 9th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
		I am Art Bell, and my guest is Carl Grossman.
		He, for 30 years, has specialized in investigative reporting on environmental and energy issues for which he has received the George Polk Award, among many other honors.
		He is a full professor of journalism at the State University of New York College at Old Westbury, where he is the coordinator of the college's media and communications department.
		Now, on October 6th, an interesting date, Titan IV will lift off with, among other things, 72.3 pounds of plutonium oxide.
		I think it's 238.
		I wrote it down here.
		Really rough stuff, anyway.
		Yeah, 238.
		Plutonium oxide, 238, which is about 280 times as radioactive as 239.
		You know, the stuff we use in the bomb.
		Now, this Titan IV will launch a project called Cassini, which is due to go and explore the Saturn system.
		Not quite the way we're exploring Mars presently, but explore, orbit, take photographs, map it, do that sort of thing, so that we might learn more about ourselves.
		Now, NASA has always maintained there are risks in going to space.
		And there are.
		Generally, though, those discussions have been limited to the risks associated with the astronauts, brave astronauts, cosmonauts, and we have lost some.
		In this particular case, there are two problems.
		One, the Titan IV may, as it has before, explode on launch.
		That would be bad.
		Two, Cassini is due to come back to Earth at about 42,000 miles per hour and graze the atmosphere at anywhere from 200 to 500 miles above Earth so that it might gain speed and then sort of relaunch itself towards Saturn.
		Now, should they miss by just a little bit as this thing comes back toward Earth at 42,000 miles an hour, and should it re-enter, the implications indeed are dire, and we have been discussing that with Carl Grossman and will again in a moment.
		All right, this 72.3 pounds of plutonium is on board to supply a total of about 745 watts of power for the Cassini probe.
		And again, to put that in perspective for you, that is roughly half what my hair dryer uses, or yours, not a lot of power.
		And it could be achieved not using all of this deadly plutonium, but instead simply using solar power.
		It is available.
		It is efficient enough to serve the Cassini probe, according to Mr. Grossman, but they're not going to do it.
		And the next question is why?
		Mr. Grossman, welcome back to the program.
		Why, why, why?
		Will they, since we've had advances and solar would work, why take this horrid risk?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's, again, I think the central question.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Just let me note, I'm not saying that, as Dr. Strobel stressed, that you can put the solar panels immediately on Cassini as it now exists, but a few years of work and it could be flown safely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But they want to launch October 6th.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		They're pushing for.
		I mean, Saturn is going to be around, I bet, for a few more years.
		I bet.
		They could do this thing right, and there would be no problem.
		And as to why not, I found four basic reasons.
		One, you have the pressure of the manufacturer of this device, and the company is called Lockheed Martin.
		And it's not exactly your mom-and-pop store.
		In fact, two years ago, I was out speaking on this issue in Colorado, and there was a little item, maybe other people didn't notice it, but I did, about how a little subcommittee of the House Appropriations Committee led by Representative Jerry Lewis had canceled the Cassini project because of cost.
		He's a conservative, kind of a new Gingrich follower.
		And just on the basis of cost, said, I mean, this is billions of dollars.
		And I thought, well, that's the end of Cassini.
		And it's interesting how the end came over dollars, not safety.
		Well, but the time I got back to New York two days later, things had changed.
		I called the full House Appropriations Committee, asked for the staff people, people who handle the reporters, and said, well, what's happened now with Cassini?
		And Lapella said, and I quote this in my book, The Wrong Stuff, you wouldn't believe what happened that subcommittee zeroed out Cassini and we landed on by Lockheed Martin.
		And boom, it was all back.
		So we know how the Congress of the United States seems to work.
		And the paperwork seems to be mostly green that propels the Congress.
		So you have Lockheed Martin.
		Then you have, oh, and prior to Lockheed Martin, incidentally, for decades, these RTGs, these plutonium systems were made by General Electorate.
		And I don't know about them bringing good things to life, but they certainly have impacted very heavily on our political scene for many years, pushing what G.E. Westinghouse, the co-contepsi of nuclear power worldwide, very very formidable corporations.
		Then you have the national nuclear laboratories like Los Alamos and Oak Ridge and Brookhaven National Laboratory and so forth.
		They're all involved in the fabrication of these plutonium systems.
		And particularly in a post-Cold War era, they want to keep busy.
		I mean they can't just be building nuclear weapons like they did before.
		So this other use of nuclear in space represents things for those government bureaucrats and scientists at these national laboratories gives us something to do.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well let me understand how you got to where you are with regard to the information you have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now surely you did not get this from the PR guys at NASA.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		No, no.
		I've never had such trouble getting information as I've had on this story, which I've been on for over 10 years.
		And a lot of what I've gotten through the years has to do with the Freedom of Information Act.
		I can give some background on that.
		I mean, I got into this issue, and I had no suspicions about NASA.
		I mean, I saw Neil Armstrong on the moon, and I mean, everybody was so proud.
		I kind of figured NASA was one of these exceptions to a government agency, squeaky, clean, and efficient.
		Wow, was I wrong.
		But I had seen a little item in a Department of Energy newsletter right back in 85 about how two shuttles were to be launched in 1986, one being the Challenger.
		And this was a nuclear shot to be the Challenger's next mission.
		In any case, in 85, I saw this little item about how NASA planned to send up two plutonium-fueled space probes on shuttles, two separate shots.
		And at the end of the article, they talked about how they had considered accidents that could occur on launch in the lower atmosphere, the upper atmosphere, and so forth and so on.
		I just filed very simply a Freedom of Information Act request with NASA, the Department of Energy, the five national nuclear laboratories involved in these two missions.
		And wow, did I have...
		For starters, they wouldn't give me anything without paying fees for the documents.
		They wouldn't grant a fee waiver, even though I'm a journalist and entitled.
		Finally, when I appealed that, then they said they just wouldn't give me anything because all that they had was pre-decisional.
		They hadn't kind of figured out the consequences yet, which turned out to be false.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pre-decisional.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Pre-decisional.
		In fact, when I got the documents finally in late 85, after applying a great deal of political pressure, I mean, I had to go to Senator D'Amato.
		here in New York, Senator Moynihan and others to try to get these agencies to follow the law.
		And finally, in late 85, I got the documents, and they said essentially that they could be a terrible accident if the plutonium on these two shots was dispersed.
		But the likelihood of a shuttle accident, I mean, this was what one of the documents said, was highly unlikely because of the extreme reliability inherent in the shuttle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was that before Challenger?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
		They put the odds of a shuttle accident in the paperwork that they finally sent me at 1 in 100,000.
		1 in 100,000.
		And then I really didn't know what to do with the story.
		I mean, here you could have a disaster, but the likelihood, NASA was saying, was infinitesimal.
		Like they're saying now about Cassini, a shuttle's likelihood of a catastrophe, of a major accident, 1 in 100,000.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The equivalent of nothing can go wrong.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		yeah yeah and and i think you don't want to do journalist under the uh...
		scare people or or to to to raise an issue which isn't I have a Mazda Diana out here and I have in front of me my computer.
		You were talking about loving your computer.
		I love mine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I love it on some days.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		There are some days, though.
		I can kick it.
		But my digital watch and my laptop.
		So I'm not technophobic.
		In any case, there I was in January, January 28th of 1986, to be exact, on my way to the State University of New York to teach my investigative reporting class when I hear on the car radio that the Challenger had blown up.
		And I stopped the car in front of an appliance store along the Long Island Expressway.
		I live out of Long Island.
		And there's that horrific image of the Challenger blowing up.
		And all I was thinking then was, wow, if it was the next mission, which was slated for May with 25 pounds of plutonium, it wouldn't be seven brave astronauts dead.
		Wherever that plutonium might have spread, I mean, pieces of Challenger ended up all over the coast of Florida.
		In fact, just a few months ago, some pieces washed up still.
		You would have had many, many more people.
		It could be who would know?
		It depends on how that plutonium would be released, as dust, or if the particles would stay together and so forth.
		Then I, from a pay phone, I called the Nation magazine and asked the folks at the Nation, did they know that the next Challenger mission was to be one of these plutonium space probe missions?
		And they didn't.
		And they asked me to help them put together a piece quick, and I did.
		And then I also called the government.
		The Department of Energy had been made the sort of point agency to deal with me.
		And I called a guy, I remember his name, Dan Butler.
		It was Dan Butler.
		He was the person I was told to have my dealings with.
		And I said to Mr. Butler, I said, look, the chances, it wasn't one in 100,000, Mr. Butler.
		I mean, this is the 25th launch, and look what happened.
		And he just didn't kind of absorb that.
		I went on and I said, well, are you still going to do these plutonium shots?
		And he said, absolutely, absolutely.
		There might be a suspension or postponement in the shuttle schedule, but certainly we're going to do it.
		And we've done them before.
		Yeah, they did it before, but at that point they had done 22, and there was three mishaps.
		I mean, that I had picked up in the documents they had sent, including that when I had mentioned that SNAP-9A satellite, which came down, disintegrated, and the plutonium fell out all over the place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I seem to recall, wasn't there a Russian satellite that came down somewhere in Canada or Nova Scotia or somewhere?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, yes.
		In fact, it isn't just the U.S.'s space program which has had troubles with these nuclear devices.
		The Soviets, they've had 41 nuclear space shots.
		And what they do, most of the time, they don't want to use plutonium because they fear that if there would be a launch bed accident, the hot radioactive plutonium would be released.
		So what they do is most of the time, not all the time, for example, the Russian Mars space probe that fell from the sky back in November, November 16th of this past year, that fell on Chile and Bolivia, that contained a half a pound of plutonium.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there were a whole bunch of military folks swarming around down there.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Well, what the Soviets and now Russia does mostly is to send up actual reactors, actual nuclear reactors, which they may go critical.
		In other words, the chain reaction only begins when they're up there.
		But the problem is, I mean, Newton's law of gravity is still applicable.
		What goes up can easily come down.
		And the cosmos that you're speaking of is the Cosmos 954.
		And in 1978, that fell over the Northwest Territories of Canada.
		They didn't know where it was going to fall.
		Ultimately, it fell over Canada, and it splattered tens of thousands of square miles of the Northwest Territory with nuclear debris.
		I mean, six out of 41 is their record of mishaps with nuclear space shots.
		Ours is three now out of 26.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nowhere near 100,000 to 1.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Well, they make up these numbers, basically.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		I mean, they factor in their self-interest, and they want to, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so if they tamper with numbers for their own self-interest, and most organizations do that, then let's again discuss the possibility of, I mean, Cassini slingshots back, comes within 200 to 500 miles of Earth to gain acceleration to fire out towards Saturn.
		If it should miss by a little bit and re-enter our atmosphere, they have done, I mean, you're using their numbers with regard to the number of deaths that might occur, say if it came down in a metropolitan area like Los Angeles or New York or whatever.
		Are their numbers accurate there?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		No, it's actually pretty devious what they've done.
		I hate to use that word, but I mean, I've had a long experience with these people.
		And the notion of, I mean, there was Neil Armstrong on the moon, for example, and he was an Eagle Scout.
		I was an Eagle Scout.
		I ultimately ended up interviewing the man, and I was so impressed.
		But I can't tell you, I've been impressed by the other folks I've met from NASA.
		And in terms of the Cassini accident, what they're doing is averaging out the dose from that plutonium all over the planet, not considering the fact that, you know, maybe it won't be the Northwest Territories like what happened with the Cosmos 758.
		It could be L.A. It could be Madrid.
		It could be in New York.
		It could be a population center.
		So, you know, it could be much more, much, much more serious.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, here's something very interesting.
		Do you remember the one, again, we discussed it a few moments ago that came down in Central America, South America?
		What was it, Chile?
		Yes, yes.
		Originally, they said that was going to come down in Western Australia.
		And that's exactly where they had forecast it.
		They were sure of it.
		Western Australia.
		As a matter of fact, when it re-entered, they said it has re-entered in Western Australia.
		One day later, we heard it was in Chile.
		Now, that's not even close.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		You're playing with a game of billiard with the planet Earth when you throw these things up and they start coming together.
		You don't know exactly what hole they'll end up in.
		And in fact, the book, The Wrong Stuff, begins with President Clinton, this is the first chapter, and I get into all the documentation I was able to gather, with President Clinton calling the Prime Minister of Australia, John Howard, this is November 17th, and warning him, turns out that Clinton was going to go to Australia the next day on a state visit, so Clinton had a personal warning him that this Russian Mars space probe with a half a pound of plutonium.
		And it doesn't sound like much, you know, a half a pound, but this plutonium-238, as I say, is 280 times more radioactive than 239.
		I mean, that's why they use it.
		It has a shorter half-life.
		Instead of 24,500 years, which is what 239 has, this stuff is 87.8.
		And because it has a shorter half-life, its decay rate.
		That would mean that the decay rate is much more rapid.
		It's hot.
		And what they do is they couple the heat in these radioisothermoelectric generators and produce electricity in that way.
		So when you're talking about a half a pound, you're talking about the equivalent of, well, the arithmetic is pretty stark.
		You're talking about the equivalent of hundreds of, 140 pounds of plutonium-239.
		Though I should note, too, that in the plutonium oxide mix is a little bit of plutonium-239.
		About 10% is plutonium-239-2.
		In any case, there was this thing coming down, and the U.S. Space Command, which is very involved in tracking space objects, advised Clinton that it looked like a thing was coming down in Australia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I remember that very specifically.
		In Western Australia, Carl, hold on.
		We'll be right back to you.
		My guest is Carl Grossman.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		The night featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 9th, 1997.
		The silence I know is done.
		Here for the sound they count.
		Romeo and Juliet are together in eternity.
		Romeo and 45.
		Romeo and Juliet are together in eternity.
		You came my way I know I want to take your way.
		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 9th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
		My guest is Carl Grossman.
		We're talking about the Cassini launch, which, by the way, is this coming October 6th.
		It is a date you're going to want to remember.
		Hopefully only for a short time.
		And then you're going to want to remember it because Cassini's coming back our way at about 42,000 miles an hour.
		It'll graze the atmosphere.
		It will do that to gain speed to launch itself out toward its final intended target, the Saturn system.
		And it's a great adventure, and indeed there are risks with the space program, but it seems to me the American public has a right to know that the risks they're talking about this time are not just to the astronauts, but to all of us.
		We'll get back to Mr. Grossman in a moment.
unidentified		We'll get back to Mr. Grossman in a moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, Carl Grossman, my guest in the first two hours on Cassini, has a website and we have a link to it on ours.
		So in addition to being able to see the live cams tonight, everybody keeps writing to me and saying, how about putting a cam outside?
		Well, I'm thinking of Doing that.
		I've got a number of cameras, and I could put one outside.
		I think I would have to bring it in.
		It's not weatherproof, but on a good night, I could take a camera outside and point it at the desert sky.
		I will have to experiment a little bit and see what I can do and see how well you would see something out there.
unidentified		Is it a full moon, maybe?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Even better, I could couple one to my telescope.
unidentified		Oh, boy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The quake apparently has been upgraded in Venezuela to a 6.7.
		Now, that would explain a lot, if correct.
		This is from Carol in Mesa.
		That is quite a hefty quake, she says, and it is.
		Remember when Sean David Morton said he gets headaches in his right eye before earthquakes?
		This morning, I awoke with a pain in my right eye, an incredible pain, not like a headache, but something different.
		My first thought was, oh my God, there's going to be a very large earthquake today somewhere, and sure enough.
		Big mudslide in Kyushu, Japan.
		Believe they said there are several injured, perhaps some dead from that.
		Kyushu, of course, is a geologically active area.
		It should be an interesting month this month, and it isn't even the 20th yet.
		That's right.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Yes, Art.
		Yes.
		I used to listen to you when you first started in Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Long time ago.
unidentified		Yes, I enjoyed it so much, and I'm an old lady now.
		I'm 87 years old.
		And I wanted to tell you a little story.
		It's just very short.
		Sure.
		You know, when you were having everybody to go out and look or look up in the sky and think about the saucers coming down?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, twice.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I did it twice.
unidentified		Yes, well, this was the first time you did it.
		I have an atrium in my condominium, and it's not covered, you know, but nothing can get in unless it falls in from the top.
		And so that night I was looking out the window, and I was thinking about, you know, the saucers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Cooperated.
unidentified		All at once, some big, big black thing flew over and it almost fell in and it was making a noise almost like air coming out of a balloon.
		And, you know, I thought, oh, my God.
		It's a, what is it?
		The other thing that flies and bites and draws the blood out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Chupacabrog.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Chupacabrog.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it was my mind.
unidentified		It was so funny.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are a couple things, though, about what we did, thank you, that are not so funny.
		One is, as you point out, the first time we did this, I mean, everybody says it, everybody, that these creatures, if they exist, communicate telepathically.
		So I thought, what the heck?
		Have millions of people telepathically try and contact whoever they are and have them show themselves.
		The first time we did it, within two weeks, Phoenix.
		The second time we did it, within a few days, Las Vegas.
		So dare I do it again?
		Dare we do it again?
		I don't know.
		I'm not saying that we caused those massive sightings, but there is a lot of coincidence there.
		So I may pick a third time.
		I mean, the third time, they say, is the charm, right?
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		This is Patricia, Missoula, Montana.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi there.
unidentified		I didn't hear the reverse speech program, but I've been hearing about it.
		I have two questions.
		Is it going to be repeated soon?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		well i've done any number of interviews with david oats uh...
		last one Well, I'm new with you, darling.
		Oh, I see.
unidentified		But here I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, when you hear it, you will be amazed.
unidentified		I bet.
		I've been amazed by what little bits I've been hearing from people who did hear it.
		Second question is, how do you listen to it?
		How do you play a tape backwards?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've got to have a special recorder to do that.
		And it actually does play the tape backwards.
		Or, short of that, if you have a computer, they have the ability to do that.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		I'll just have to go check out the stores.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		David Oath sells one at a very reasonable price, but I'll tell you what, hang out, listen to the next program we do, and then go from there.
unidentified		All right, I will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
unidentified		You bet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's Missoula, Montana.
		A River Runs Through It.
		I love that movie.
		Have you seen it?
		A River Runs Through It?
		What a great movie.
		Actually, not filmed in Missoula, but representing it was Missoula.
		But then again, Mars Attacks was supposed to be destroying my little town, and they did that in Arizona.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Howdy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Howdy.
unidentified		This is Chris from Salem, Oregon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, aren't you up near the crop circle?
unidentified		Yeah, that's why I called.
		I heard you mention that.
		Uh-huh.
		I went out there Sunday to take a look at it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what did you observe?
unidentified		Well, it was kind of hard to see.
		It's on a really slight incline.
		The easiest place to see it is right from the highway there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, the easiest way to see a crop circle is from the air.
unidentified		Well, yeah, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the ground.
unidentified		Only I'm not a pilot.
		Right, I hear you.
		She was going to make arrangements to have some aerial photographs taken.
		I haven't seen any of those yet, but the business she owns is about three blocks down the street from where I live.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they've got to get in there quickly because usually people go tromping in and ruin it.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		They weren't letting people into the field when I went out there, which is perfectly understandable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		But I'm trying to keep in touch with her and wait for the pictures to come back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, look, if you're in touch with her, have her contact me.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		I'm not sure if she's online or not, or anything like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All she needs is a telephone.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So if you talk to her.
unidentified		I was thinking about getting them emailed to you so you could put them on your site like you were mentioning before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's one thing to do, yes.
		But of course, if we could actually talk to her, it would be really neat.
		So if you could get me or maybe she's listening and she'll fax me her number.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		I don't have your fax number.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you ready?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Area code 702.
unidentified		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		727-8499.
unidentified		702-727-8499.
		Right.
		Got it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you very much.
		And there is a three-page limit on faxes.
		Anything more than three pages will be digested into memory and not printed out.
		So please do not fax more than three pages.
		And please, will somebody out there please stop sending me Sheldon Nidal's ground crew report every day?
		It's driving me nuts.
		I get at least five copies of it, three pages each, from all kinds of separate sources, and I wish it would stop.
		Oh, let it stop.
		Welcome to the Rockies.
		You're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		I have a little weird thing that happened to me last night, and I was looking for it in the paper today because I went outside about 10.30 last night.
		Yes.
		The entire sky turned red.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I live a little north of Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the entire sky turned red?
unidentified		It was red.
		It flashed.
		And then our electricity flashed off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		And it came back on.
		And then the sky flashed red.
		I mean, it looked like a negative of the sky.
		It was so weird.
		And my whole body just got all like a goosebump, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, a lot of people should have seen it.
unidentified		That's what I thought.
		And then our electricity went off totally.
		And then I went to the phone to call somebody and say, my gosh, and the phone was dead.
		And we live in a beach area out on an Indian reservation.
		And there's like maybe 25 houses along the beach there.
		And the entire beach was dark.
		So, I mean, all of the electricity went out.
		And it's next to a pretty big-sized city called Marysville.
		And, I mean, there wasn't anything in the paper, and nobody said anything about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It sounds to me like a quick dimensional door might have opened.
unidentified		What?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A dimensional door.
unidentified		A dimensional door.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		Well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There must have been a gigantic electromagnetic flux that occurred instantaneously, zapping your phone and power.
unidentified		And everybody else in the whole area.
unidentified		I mean, in the middle of the day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know what you want to watch for now?
unidentified		What?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Strange creatures.
		Oh, come on.
		What do you think comes through dimensional doors, dear?
		Not baby carriages.
		Things with long teeth.
unidentified		So it was probably, you know, fireworks left over or lightning or something?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fireworks?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think fireworks shut off your phone and your power?
unidentified		But you're not serious about, like, things with long teeth.
unidentified		I mean, are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think?
unidentified		I don't think you are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I am.
unidentified		Oh.
unidentified		So, what do you think it really was?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you listening carefully?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		i mean can you hear anything rustling outside your house felt uh...
unidentified		you think they're going to be out of the area that uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		take care of them His name is Peter Davenport.
unidentified		Oh, yeah, you talk about him sometimes.
unidentified		Mm-hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At the Seattle UFO Reporting Center.
unidentified		And maybe somebody reported something to him about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, why don't you report it?
unidentified		I think I will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then you'll find out if others did.
unidentified		That's why I was calling you because I figured you could let me know about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I could.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's in the phone directory up there.
unidentified		Oh, cool.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Hey.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In the meantime, don't let something do a Tyson to you.
unidentified		Well, I feel well protected.
		Okay.
		And you have a great show, by the way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's different.
unidentified		Yeah, it is.
unidentified		We enjoy it a lot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you very much for the call, and have a good, safe morning.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn your radio off, please.
unidentified		It's off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's good.
unidentified		Hi, this is Dee Dee from St. Louis.
		Yes.
		And I was listening to your show a few weeks ago, and you were talking about channeling.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Channeling, yes.
unidentified		I didn't get to hear the show that my dad did with Lori Toy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		And how do you feel about her with her channeling?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't feel good about channeling, period.
		To answer your question, Lori Toi is a very, very interesting individual.
		There are other people who have received information by channels, and I don't discredit it.
		You know, I really don't altogether.
		I simply, I've said this on the air a million times, and I'll say it again.
		There is too much room for fraud.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's the problem that I have with it.
unidentified		Well, we've got a lot of their books, and I'm waiting right now for some of her channeling cassettes.
unidentified		I just was, I don't know, I would really like to hear exactly what is said during these, and I was just interested in how you felt about her since you had her on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have all kinds of people on.
		I like Lori Toey, actually, a lot.
		But I mean, I could be a channeler.
		I could do it.
		I could convince you.
		I could go into a trance.
		I could become the ancient arturist.
		And the ancient arturist could forecast anything you want, stock market, whatever you want.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		Well, I just, like I said, I was just wondering how you felt about her, and I just wanted you to know I really liked your show, and thanks very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, take care.
		Yeah, Lori Toy is a very, very, very interesting individual, and I'm not down on all channeling.
		I simply am totally unable to discern the real from the fraudulent.
		And I think there is more fraudulent than there is real.
		On my international line, you are on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
		My name is Scott, and I'm calling from southwestern British Columbia area.
		I'm calling about, called last week about the space program.
		I'm calling this week about the space program.
		Okay.
		I really don't consider the risk of re-entry on the slingshot to be probable in the slightest.
		They're able to calculate these things out within a matter of a handful of miles from hundreds of millions of miles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's assuming the burns are correct and valves don't get stuck in the middle.
unidentified		If the burns are incorrect, there is a higher likelihood of it being even further away.
		Because a simple couple pounds of thrust can throw the thing literally hundreds of thousands of miles out of whack.
		So it's more likely to miss Earth than to hit Earth if there is improper thrust.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, look, the only argument that I think is valid here is that NASA, I think, has a responsibility to tell everybody what the actual risks are.
unidentified		There, I agree with you.
unidentified		And here's the task I want to take.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And by the way, may I ask you a question?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does Canada have a space program?
unidentified		Oh, yes.
		As a matter of fact, every time the shuttle puts something out, that arm has got a big Canada decline on it.
		That was made, I believe, by Bombardier in Montreal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, but what I mean is, do you launch any vehicles yourself?
unidentified		We do it through, no, not in Canada.
		We do it in association with ESA and with NASA.
		We have Canada astronauts, Roberta Bondar, Mark Garneau, etc.
		Sure.
		And actually, we're part of the Pathfinder.
		The modems that actually transmit the data from Sojourner to Pathfinder were built in Canada.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They had trouble with those modems.
unidentified		Not today.
		Well, I don't know anything about them other than that it's infrigerate Motorola, Canada, whatever.
		Okay, what I wanted to take to task with you about was the attitude of your discussion about putting plutonium and making it sound like it is the American people have a right to build.
		What happened to the rest of the world?
		You know, that's what you're saying.
		No, no, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We said that.
		We said that.
		You know, we talk about Paris and London and it could come down anyway.
unidentified		But it's still this parochial American attitude.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the point is, if it came down in Australia, you can bet your bottom dollar, American dollar that is, that the American taxpayer would be paying to clean it up.
unidentified		Oh, well, I doubt it, because I tell you, we didn't get any money from the Russians when that Cosmos 931 or whatever crashed up Northwest Territories.
		And, you know, I was a little kid when that happened.
		And I can tell you, I've got two relatives who have died in the last few years from cancer.
		And, you know, it's very suspicious.
		You hear all these things that will increase cancer rates in baby boomers.
		And, you know, and I wonder why in British Columbia, all places where we don't have a lot of heavy industry, we don't have, you know, most of our industry is natural resource-based, not using a lot of chemicals, like, you know, forestry, for example.
		Why do we have such elevated incidents of cancer of the environmental type?
		And that's what's bothered me.
		And, you know, plutonium carries on the wind quite far, especially if it's vaporized.
		It goes around the world in a matter of a few hours on the upper elevation wind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you imagine 70 plus pounds of plutonium scorching back into the atmosphere?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's unimaginable.
unidentified		Well, I'll have my fingers crossed along with you on that date of the launch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		October 6th, yes, indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you very much.
unidentified		Welcome.
unidentified		Take care.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From British Columbia.
		Again, our international line, if you would like to call us, toll-free from anywhere in the world, is 800-893-0903.
		That's 800-893-0903.
		Won't cost you a penny or a shilling.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 9, 1997.
		Coast to Coast AM from July
		9, 1997.
		Coast to Coast AM from July 9, 1997.
		Coast to Coast AM from July 9, 1997.
		Looking up for a place to go.
		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in Time.
		The night featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 9th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, good morning, everybody.
		Those of you who have access to the internet might go up there and take a look.
		We've got the webcam back on today.
		I had a big fight with my computer yesterday, and I had, you know, parts all over the room.
		It was messy, so I was embarrassed I didn't turn it on.
		It's back on today, and my computer is fixed, and I'm happy about that.
		Daryl says, hey, Art, I like that t-shirt.
		It's one I got in Stockholm, Sweden.
		He says, an aura of ABBA.
		So I'm playing ABBA in honor of that.
		Have these studio cam images over my shoulder on a 70-inch Mitsubishi.
		Another web TV at our home here in Los Angeles.
		And I have to tell you, you fill the room.
		70-inch Mitsubishi.
		That must be something.
		All right.
		We'll get back to what we're doing here in a moment.
		And what we're doing now, coming up on, is open lines, and I'll update you on a little bit of what's going on, and we will launch.
		The last two hours consumed by Carl Grossman telling us about Cassini, 72.3 pounds of plutonium to go up on a Titan IV October 6th.
		It'll head towards Saturn, but not before it comes back to Earth in a slingshot effort to increase its speed.
		It will come toward us at 42,000 miles per hour and will graze Earth at anywhere from 200 to 500 miles, they hope, should it re-enter and should it come down in a populated area.
		NASA has plans to relocate and, for example, LA or New York, all the citizens of these cities.
		Plans the American people know nothing about.
		And I really don't have a problem with our space program.
		I'm a big supporter.
		But I do think the people have a right to know what the risks are.
		Now, NASA has always said there are risks associated with our space effort.
		And I have always generally assumed those to be, for the most part, to the astronauts, very brave, who go up in these vehicles.
		But if there is a risk, a substantial risk, or even a reasonably sizable risk, after all, NASA said the chances of a shuttle exploding were one in 100,000.
		And of course, turned out to be not quite that.
		And we've had Titan IVs that have gone up like Roman candles as well.
		So I'm not saying that we shouldn't do it.
		I'm not even sure about, we talked with Mr. Grossman about solar power, the advisability of using that, whether we can or we cannot.
		I'm not enough of a scientist to know that.
		But what I do think is that we have a right to know what the risks are.
		And apparently the only way we can find out what they are is to do what Mr. Grossman has done.
		He's an award-winning journalist, and he's pried that information from NASA through the freedom of information request route.
		And it just seems to me that NASA should be more open and should at least tell us what we're facing.
		We have a right to know.
		So that's why he was on the air.
		The End Looking around at what's going on, as you know, Tyson here in Nevada has been banned.
		No more boxing for Mr. Tyson.
		And they have fined him $3 million.
		That is a record fine, by the way.
		Now, I don't know how much that hurts because it amounts to only 10% of the $30 million purse from the fight.
		So in other words, he's left with $27 million, not a bad payday.
		He'll fight again.
		He'll be able to appeal every year, and if they ever let him out of the country, he can go box in South Africa or something.
		We've got a new rating system for TV shows.
		It'll take effect October 1st.
		And it adds, let's see, the letter S for sex, L for language, V for violence, and D for suggestive dialogue.
unidentified		Hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Suggestive, well, they couldn't use the S for it.
		They already had to use that for sex, so I had to use dialogue.
		So S L V D will be the new rating system.
		And no doubt, that's how most of our younger people will decide what they're going to watch in that order.
		No, maybe not that order.
		If it has an S, that makes it very appealing.
		If it has a V for violence, it's very appealing.
		An L for language helps out.
		And a D for suggestive dialogue, might as well throw that one in too.
		So if you get an SLVD, you've really got something you want to watch.
		Don't you remember when you were a kid?
		That's how it works.
		SLVD, oh my God, run the tape machine on that one.
		Mr. Clinton's approval rating, never higher, 64%, mostly due to the good economy.
		It is good.
		Market takes 100-point jumps daily up and down, but more up than down.
		The Mars rover continues its work.
		I find it astounding.
		There will be a news conference at 12.30 Pacific Time later today, and I'm looking forward to that.
		We'll see what new rock it's kind of saddling up to another rock right now.
		They're naming these rocks.
		Casper and Scooby-Doo are to be the next rocks that it will look at following the examination of our friend Barnacle Bill.
		An earthquake in Venezuela has killed 28.
		5.5, but still killed 28 people, including students trapped inside a collapsed school building and injuring 150 others.
		It is the country's worst earthquake in 30 years.
		Just 5.5.
		But again, it's the type of quake.
		Nobody knows what dangers await Mira's cosmonauts when they open the hatch to the space station's depressurized lab.
		Floating glass shards.
		Now that's a bad, bad deal from broken bottles.
		Can you imagine going in in a spacesuit and facing the possibility of floating glass shards, globules of blood and urine from popped vials, toxic spills from ruined experiments and burst pipes.
		It could be opening an orbital Pandora's box.
		As a result, NASA is scrambling to put together a what-if-worst case list in preparation for the repair job later in the month.
		Staying with space, check this out.
		It's from Donald Keogh.
		There is a very disturbing possibility underway right now.
		If any of the robot reports were correct, witnesses may have seen a special breed of space explorers similar to the fearsome cyborg, which NASA is considering for long voyages.
		Cyborg, cybernetic organism, is the goal of a program under NASA, under NASA contract now.
		Check this out, folks.
		Using chemical mind changers and surgery, some future astronauts would be transformed into semi-robots.
		But the plan is strongly opposed by men in medicine and some scientists, including Dr. Toby Friedman of the North American Aviation Organization.
		This surgical tampering, said Dr. Friedman, would produce a weird being who accomplishes his space mission by trading, get this, trading most of his physiological systems for electronic ones,
		whose mouth is sealed, lungs collapsed, body wastes recycled through himself, neural pathways partly severed, and all his emotional feelings dissected out.
		He would be so fantastically changed, he could never rejoin the human race.
		Such closed-cycle astronauts would be a mating of man with machine.
		Artificial units would replace their hearts and most other main organs.
		They would need no food, no water.
		They would have built-in energy suppliers.
		Eventually, even their brains might be replaced.
		Cyborg, the emotionless semi-robot, would be used on long journeys, which could break down a normal astronaut.
		There is no question that it can be done by us or an alien race.
		So, would you go for that?
		You still want to go on a long trip?
		A Staten woman, this is the Salem area, says she has found a double crop circle in a wheat field near Highway 22.
		Mary Ann Koch says the formation is about 50 to 60 feet across and is located in a field about 100 yards northeast of the Silver Creek Falls exit.
		She says she's fascinated by crop circles, so she contacted the media in order to document this one.
		And when we get a photograph of it, you know we will get it to you.
		So there you have it.
		Just a few little tidbits.
		I'm going to open the lines now.
		We are not going to screen calls.
		We will talk of anything you wish to talk about.
		So allow the trouble to begin.
		Wildcard line, you're on air.
unidentified		Hi.
		Oh, hi, Art.
		How you doing?
		Okay.
		Dan in the U District.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I second what the guy said about the Colonel Corso tape.
		And I recorded it.
		I'm sending it to a friend of mine in South Carolina, Neil, who's a boyhood chum who, after 35 years, I was able to locate through the person locator link off of Michael Lindemann's website.
		And Neil, we used to go around blowing up stuff kind of like the way you did as a kid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Politically incorrect now.
unidentified		Oh, yeah, I know.
unidentified		It's great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I love it.
unidentified		And he wanted to know all about you and your show because he works days.
		So I've been sending him tapes.
		And he's really interested in it.
		But Neil was kind of like the mad scientist on the block.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where is he exactly in South Carolina?
unidentified		He's in North Augusta, South Carolina.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He could hear us.
unidentified		Yeah, I sent him a list of the stations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		WBT Charlotte must go slamming down there.
unidentified		Charlotte.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, sure.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Yeah, we did a lot of neat stuff.
		He's quite a guy, so you have another convert, and I'm really thrilled with the way the audience is growing and the stations and everything.
		You know, I've been listening ever since you came on KVI, and it's just the shows keep getting better and better.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, stranger and stranger.
unidentified		Yeah.
		I know.
		It's getting exciting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, my friend.
unidentified		I'll see you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See you later.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much.
unidentified		Yep.
unidentified		Vampires.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Well, hello, Art.
unidentified		Milwaukee calling.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I was just calling with reference to what these people seen, this trio of satellites.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		They are called the White Cloud Military Cluster.
unidentified		Air Force, I believe, put them up there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		Yes.
		Apparently they have the ability to change their direction also.
		I don't know if you have any contacts with the Air Force or anything, but it'll be interesting to find out more about them, what they're doing with them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know that spy satellite are they spy satellites?
unidentified		They may be.
unidentified		I don't know what else the Air Force will be doing if they're doing some kind of CD imaging or something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They can definitely be exactly right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And spy satellites are designed to be able to be moved around in orbit so they can look at what they want.
unidentified		Yeah, I seen them last year during the meteor shower, and the next month in Astronomy Magazine, I seen an article about them.
unidentified		So that's what they are, the white cloud satellites put up there by the Air Force, I believe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure there's a whole bunch of stuff buzzing around Earth that we really don't know about.
unidentified		Oh, yeah, I'm sure there is, too.
unidentified		You have a good day, and I just thought I'd let everyone know that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		For example, I know there is a treaty that says we would not have nuclear weapons in space, but I would be willing to lay down a lot of money, and it would be a safe bet, because we can't prove it.
		But I would bet you a lot of money that we have nuclear weapons in space now.
		And I think I might even bet more money that the Russians also do.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Lord.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		I just got a quick question for you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, where are you?
unidentified		I'm out in Wisconsin.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Scott, I'm just wondering what CBC stands for.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Chancellor Broadcasting.
unidentified		Chancellor Broadcasting.
unidentified		Okay, that's what I wanted to know.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Thanks a lot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you're welcome.
		That was easy.
		Gee, if they were all that easy.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Good morning, Art Tim in Denver.
		Hello, Tim.
		I've got some Art Bell Check Club news.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		First of all, we have sold out our Los Angeles chapter's first meeting with David John Oates.
unidentified		They have no more room.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		So all tickets are taken for that.
		However, we are proud to announce that we've got the Phoenix chapter open.
		And both of the coordinators will be at the meeting next Monday night with Richard Hoagland.
		And they'll have information to pass out to folks about the Phoenix chapter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe I'm missing something here, Tim, but I could have sworn I got a fax earlier today saying they were all shutting down.
unidentified		No.
unidentified		No, not at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I didn't get that fax?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No kidding.
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I swear I have it.
unidentified		Okay.
		Sorry.
		Sorry about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I could read it.
unidentified		That's okay.
unidentified		That's fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you send that?
unidentified		I sent a fax, but I'm not sure that that's the proper one that you should have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Who'd you send it to?
unidentified		Well, I sent several of them out, Art.
unidentified		But I don't believe that's the right one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, only one I got.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		But anyway, yeah, we're real happy to announce the Phoenix chapter.
		And also, we've got fax from a gentleman in England who wants to start a club.
		England?
		England, in Mitcham, Surrey, England.
		So we're truly going international real soon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would presume that the way they are able to get the show over there is on the internet.
unidentified		Right.
		Right.
		But there's quite a following from what I hear in the London area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've been getting a lot of email and a lot of messages from England.
		And we are trying, we are talking to some English networks about getting on the air over there.
		That's in the works.
		It's one of those things we're trying to get done in the middle of doing a million other things.
		Right.
		And, of course, we have a live toll-free line for them.
		So it would really be an adventure in radio, wouldn't it, to get on the air in Britain?
unidentified		Oh, it would be wonderful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Wonderful.
		Especially if it was beside something other than the internet.
		But anyway, I want to remind folks we've got chapters in Phoenix, Portland, Houston, Santa Fe, Oakland, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Sarasota, San Antonio, Austin, and in Denver.
		11 total, with three or four more on the way very soon.
		That's great.
		And if I may, I can give out the 800 number.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you may.
unidentified		Okay.
		1-800-881-4515.
		And that's for our Bell Chat Club telephone directory line.
		And you can get the phone numbers for each individual chapter in your area and give them a call and find out what's happening in your area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Tim.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		Wow.
		In Britain, huh?
		That'd be so cool.
		I'd love to be on the air in Britain, and we are working on it.
		Now, now that I'm thinking international, let me give out the international number, something I never do.
		Because, you know, I have this little phone number bumper, and I should be giving it out, but I don't.
		So look, if you're in a foreign country, England, New Zealand, Australia, I'm thinking mainly of English-speaking countries here, but anywhere else in Europe, Asia, South America, wherever, you can call us toll-free.
		Here's the deal.
		Our toll-free international number is, what you do is get hold of the AT ⁇ T operator in your area.
		Call and ask to speak to the AT ⁇ T operator.
		When you get her, ask her to call in the U.S., toll-free, 800-893-0903.
		We will pay for the call from anywhere in the world.
		The number again is 800-893-0903.
		Now, there is another way to do it.
		If you have the AT ⁇ T USA Direct Country Code, you can dial that and then simply dial 800-893-0903.
		It's a lot of fun to hear from the people listening on AudioNet in all of these far-fung places.
		And I'll tell you, the new AudioNet program, I don't know if any of you with computers have downloaded it, but the 4.0 version, and then they've got one with streaming video as well.
		The 4.0 version is absolutely stupendous.
		I mean, it really does give pretty decent audio.
		So I would imagine more and more people worldwide are beginning to glom on to real audio and more computers.
		So I don't care, China, Japan, anywhere in Europe, anywhere in the world, really, outside the USA and Canada.
		The number is 800-893-0903.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 9, 1997.
		Music by Ben Thede
		Premier Radio Networks presents Part Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight's program originally aired July 9th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From Keith, again in Magnetic Volcano, the Top 10 Reasons to Launch Cassini.
		10.
		To test the reliability of the Titan IV.
		9.
		NASA Deep Space Tracking Job Security.
unidentified		8.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Get rid of our plutonium stockpiles.
		7.
		To see if the emergency broadcast systems actually will work.
		six dan goldman wants to see the old Oh, I see.
		The old archive duct and cover public information films again.
		5.
		Good science.
		4.
		Keeps NASA in the news.
		3.
		More food for arts show.
		2.
		Urban renewal.
		And the number one reason to launch Cassini, to create more construction jobs, nonwithstanding demolition jobs.
unidentified		Cassini, the number one reason to launch Cassini, to create more construction jobs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, Carl Grossman, my guest in the first two hours on Cassini, has a website and we have a link to it on ours.
		So in addition to being able to see the live cams tonight, everybody keeps writing to me and saying, how about putting a cam outside?
		Well, I'm thinking of doing that.
		I've got a number of cameras and I could put one outside.
		I think I would have to bring it in.
		It's not weatherproof, but on a good night, I could take a camera outside and point it at the desert sky.
		I will have to experiment a little bit and see what I can do and see how well you would see something out there.
unidentified		It was a full moon, maybe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Even better, I could couple one to my telescope.
		Oh, boy.
		The quake apparently has been upgraded in Venezuela to a 6.7.
		Now, that would explain a lot of correctness.
		That is quite a hefty quake, she says, and it is.
		Remember when Sean David Morton said he gets headaches in his right eye before earthquakes?
		This morning, I awoke with a pain in my right eye, an incredible pain, not like a headache, but something different.
		My first thought was, oh my god, there's going to be a very large earthquake today somewhere, and sure enough.
		Big mudslide in Kyushu, Japan.
		I believe they said there are several injured, perhaps some dead from that.
		Kyushu, of course, is a geologically active area.
		It should be an interesting month this month, and it isn't even the 20th yet.
		That's right.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Yes, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I used to listen to you when you first started in Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Long time ago.
unidentified		Yes, I enjoyed it so much.
		And I'm an old lady now.
		I'm 87 years old.
		And I wanted to tell you a little story.
		It's just very short.
		Sure.
		You know, when you were having everybody to go out and look or look up in the sky and think about the saucers coming down?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, twice.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I did it twice.
unidentified		Yes, well, this was the first time you did it.
		I have an atrium in my condominium, and it's not covered, you know, but nothing can get in unless it falls in from the top.
		And so that night I was looking out the window, and I was thinking about, you know, the saucers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Cooperated.
unidentified		All at once, some big, big black thing flew over and it almost fell in and it was making a noise almost like air coming out of a balloon.
		And, you know, I thought, oh, my God.
		It's like, what is it?
		The other thing that flies and bites and draws the blood out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Chupacabra.
		Chupacabra.
		So it was funny.
unidentified		It was so funny.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are a couple things, though, about what we did, thank you, that are not so funny.
		One is, as you point out, the first time we did this, I mean, everybody says it, everybody, that these creatures, if they exist, communicate telepathically.
		So I thought, what the heck?
		Have millions of people telepathically try and contact whoever they are and have them show themselves.
		The first time we did it, within two weeks, Phoenix.
		The second time we did it, within a few days, Las Vegas.
		So dare I do it again?
		Dare we do it again?
		I don't know.
		I'm not saying that we caused those massive sightings, but there is a lot of coincidence there.
		So I may pick a third time.
		I mean, the third time, they say, is the charm, right?
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		This is Patricia, Missoula, Montana.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi there.
unidentified		I didn't hear the reverse speech program, but I've been hearing about it.
		I have two questions.
		Is it going to be repeated soon?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		well i've done any number of interviews with david oats uh...
		last one Well, I'm new with you, darling.
		Oh, I see.
unidentified		But here I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, when you hear it, you will be amazed.
unidentified		I bet.
		I've been amazed by what little bits I've been hearing from people who did hear it.
		Second question is, how do you listen to it?
		How do you play a tape backwards?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've got to have a special recorder to do that.
		And it actually does play the tape backwards.
		Or, short of that, if you have a computer, they have the ability to do that.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		I'll just have to go check out the stores.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		David Oath sells one at a very reasonable price, but I'll tell you what, hang out, listen to the next program we do, and then go from there.
unidentified		All right, I will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
unidentified		You bet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's Missoula, Montana.
		A River Runs Through It.
		I love that movie.
		Have you seen it?
		A River Runs Through It?
		What a great movie.
		Actually, not filmed in Missoula, but representing it was Missoula.
		But then again, Mars Attacks was supposed to be destroying my little town, and they did that in Arizona.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Howdy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Howdy.
unidentified		This is Chris from Salem, Oregon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, aren't you up near the crop circle?
unidentified		Yeah, that's why I called.
		I heard you mention that.
		Uh-huh.
		I went out there Sunday to take a look at it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what did you observe?
unidentified		Well, it was kind of hard to see.
		It's on a really slight incline.
		The easiest place to see it is right from the highway there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, the easiest way to see a crop circle is from the air.
unidentified		Well, yeah, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the ground.
unidentified		Only I'm not a pilot.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hear you.
unidentified		She was going to make arrangements to have some aerial photographs taken.
unidentified		I haven't seen any of those yet, but the business she owns is about three blocks down the street from where I live.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they've got to get in there quickly because usually people go tromping in and ruin it.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		They weren't letting people into the field when I went out there, which is perfectly understandable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		But I'm trying to keep in touch with her and wait for the pictures to come back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, look, if you're in touch with her, have her contact me.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		I'm not sure if she's online or not, or anything like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All she needs is a telephone.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So if you talk to her.
unidentified		I was thinking about getting them emailed to you so you could put them on your site like you were mentioning before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's one thing to do, yes.
		But of course, if we could actually talk to her, it would be really neat.
		So if you could get me or maybe she's listening and she'll fax me her number.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		I don't have your fax number.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you ready?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Area code 702.
unidentified		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		727-8499.
unidentified		702-727-8499.
		Right.
		Got it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you very much.
		And there is a three-page limit on faxes.
		Anything more than three pages will be digested into memory and not printed out.
		So please do not fax more than three pages.
		And please, will somebody out there please stop sending me Sheldon Nidal's ground crew report every day?
		It's driving me nuts.
		I get at least five copies of it, three pages each, from all kinds of separate sources, and I wish it would stop.
		Oh, let it stop.
		Welcome to the Rockies.
		You're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		I have a little weird thing that happened to me last night, and I was looking for it in the paper today because I went outside about 10.30 last night.
		Yes.
		The entire sky turned red.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I live a little north of Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the entire sky turned red?
unidentified		It was red.
		It flashed.
		And then our electricity flashed off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		And it came back on.
		And then the sky flashed red.
		I mean, it looked like a negative of the sky.
		It was so weird.
		And my whole body just got all like a goosebump, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, a lot of people should have seen it.
unidentified		That's what I thought.
		And then our electricity went off totally.
		And then I went to the phone to call somebody and say, my gosh, and the phone was dead.
		And we live in a beach area out on an Indian reservation, and there's like maybe 25 houses along the beach there.
		And the entire beach was dark.
		So, I mean, all of the electricity went out.
		And it's next to a pretty big-sized city called Marysville.
		And, I mean, there wasn't anything in the paper, and nobody said anything about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sounds to me like a quick dimensional door might have opened.
unidentified		What?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A dimensional door.
unidentified		Dimensional door.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		Well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There must have been a gigantic electromagnetic flux that occurred instantaneously, zapping your phone and power.
unidentified		And everybody else in the whole area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know what you want to watch for now?
unidentified		What?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Strange creatures.
unidentified		Oh, come on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think comes through dimensional doors, dear?
		Not baby carriages.
		Things with long teeth.
unidentified		So it was probably, you know, fireworks left over or lightning or something?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fireworks?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think fireworks shut off your phone and your power?
unidentified		But you're not serious about, like, things with long teeth.
unidentified		Are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think?
unidentified		I don't think you are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I am.
unidentified		Oh.
unidentified		So, what do you think it really was?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you listening carefully?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, can you hear anything rustling outside your house?
unidentified		So isn't there someone in the Seattle area that takes care of the people?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		His name is Peter Davenport.
unidentified		Oh, yeah, you talk about him sometimes.
unidentified		Mm-hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At the Seattle UFO Reporting Center.
unidentified		And maybe somebody reported something to him about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, why don't you report it?
unidentified		I think I will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then you'll find out if others did.
unidentified		That's why I was calling you because I figured you could let me know about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I could.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's in the phone directory up there.
unidentified		Oh, cool.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Hey.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In the meantime, don't let something do a Tyson to you.
unidentified		Well, I feel well protected.
		Okay.
		And you have a great show, by the way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's different.
unidentified		Yeah, it is.
unidentified		We enjoy it a lot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you very much for the call, and have a good, safe morning.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn your radio off, please.
unidentified		It's off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's good.
unidentified		Hi, this is Dee Dee from St. Louis.
		Yes.
		And I was listening to your show a few weeks ago, and you were talking about channeling.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Channeling, yes.
unidentified		I didn't get to hear the show that my dad did with Lori Toy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		And how do you feel about her with her channeling?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't feel good about channeling, period.
		To answer your question, Lori Toy is a very, very interesting individual.
		There are other people who have received information by channels, and I don't discredit it.
		You know, I really don't altogether.
		I simply, I've said this on the air a million times, and I'll say it again.
		There is too much room for fraud.
		Yeah.
		That's the problem that I have with it.
unidentified		Well, we've got a lot of their books, and I'm waiting right now for some of her channeling cassettes.
unidentified		I just was, I don't know, I would really like to hear exactly what is said during these, and I was just interested in how you felt about her since you had her on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have all kinds of people on.
		I like Lori Toy, actually, a lot.
		But I mean, I could be a channeler.
		I could do it.
		I could convince you.
		I could go into a trance.
		I could become the ancient arturist.
		And the ancient arturist could forecast anything you want, stock market, whatever you want.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		Well, I just, like I said, I was just wondering how you felt about her, and I just wanted you to know I really liked your show, and thanks very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, take care.
		Yeah, Lori Toy is a very, very, very interesting individual.
		And I'm not down on all channeling.
		I simply am totally unable to discern the real from the fraudulent.
		And I think there is more fraudulent than there is real.
		On my international line, you are on the air.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Good morning, Art.
		My name is Scott, and I'm calling from southwestern British Columbia area.
		I'm calling about, calling last week about the space program, and I'm calling this week about the space program.
		Okay.
		I really don't consider the risk of re-entry on the slingshot to be probable in the slightest.
		They are able to calculate these things out within a matter of a handful of miles from hundreds of millions of miles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's assuming the burns are correct and valves don't get stuck in the middle.
unidentified		If the burns are incorrect, there is a higher likelihood of it being even further away.
		Because a simple couple pounds of thrust can throw the thing literally hundreds of thousands of miles out of whack.
		So it's more likely to miss Earth than to hit Earth if there is improper thrust.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, look, the only argument that I think is valid here is that NASA, I think, has a responsibility to tell everybody what the actual risks are.
unidentified		There, I agree with you.
unidentified		And here's the task I want to take.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And by the way, may I ask you a question?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does Canada have a space program?
unidentified		Oh, yes.
		As a matter of fact, every time the shuttle puts something out, that arm has got a big Canada deck on it.
		That was made, I believe, by Bombardier in Montreal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, but what I mean is do you launch any vehicles yourself?
unidentified		We do it through, no, not in Canada.
		We do it in association with ESA and with NASA.
		We have Canadian astronauts, Roberta Bondar, Mark Garneau, etc.
		Sure.
		And actually, we're part of the Pathfinder.
		The modems that actually transmit the data from Sojourner to Pathfinder were built in Canada.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They had trouble with those modems?
unidentified		Not today.
		Well, I don't know anything about them other than that it's infiderated Motorola, Canada, whatever.
		Okay, what I wanted to take to task with you about was the attitude of your discussion about putting plutonium and making it sound like the American people have a right to know.
		What happened to the rest of the world?
		You know, that's what you're saying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no.
		We said that.
		We said that.
		You know, we talk about Paris and London and it could come down anyway.
unidentified		We can't clean it up.
unidentified		But it's still this parochial American attitude.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But the point is, if it came down in Australia, you can bet your bottom dollar, American dollar that is, that the American taxpayer would be paying to clean it up.
unidentified		Oh, well, I doubt it, because I tell you, we didn't get any money from the Russians when that Cosmos 931 or whatever crashed up Northwest Territories.
		And, you know, I was a little kid when that happened.
		And I can tell you, I've got two relatives who have died in the last two years from cancer.
		And, you know, it's very suspicious.
		You hear all these things about increased cancer rates in baby boomers.
		And, you know, And I wonder why in British Columbia, all places where we don't have a lot of heavy industry, we don't have, you know, most of our industry is natural resource-based, not using a lot of chemicals, like forestry, for example.
		Why do we have such elevated incidents of cancer of the environmental type?
		And that's what's bothered me.
		And, you know, plutonium carries on the wind quite far, especially if it's vaporized.
		It goes around the world in a matter of a few hours on the upper elevation wind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you imagine 70 plus pounds of plutonium scorching back into the atmosphere?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's unimaginable.
unidentified		Well, I'll have my fingers crossed along with you on that date of the launch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		October 6th, yes, indeed.
		All right.
		Thank you very much.
unidentified		Welcome.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		From British Columbia.
		Again, our international line, if you would like to call us, call-free from anywhere in the world, is 800-893-0903.
		That's 800-893-0903.
		Won't cost you a penny or a shilling.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 9, 1997.
		Coast to Coast AM from July
		Coast to Coast AM from July 9, 1997.
		9, 1997.
		Coast to Coast AM from July 9, 1997.
		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an oncore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 9th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, this is from Sean in Yucca Valley.
		NASA, he says, by embarking on the risky Cassini mission, is simply providing millions with the opportunity to glow where no man has glowed before.
		Yeah, you've got to be able to laugh about it.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hey, Art.
unidentified		How are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm okay.
unidentified		I'm calling from Portland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I've got a question about your previous call or your interview today for two hours.
		You know, who gives anybody permission to, you know, we're talking about...
		Oh, okay.
		Thank you.
		You know, with the percentages of accidents that NASA's been having, and he talked about the percentages of the Atlas, the percentages of the space accidental shuttle.
		Well, the space shuttle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, he talked about the space shuttle originally was said to have about a one in 100,000 chance of anything going wrong, you know, tragically wrong, blowing up.
unidentified		Right.
		And even that was wrong.
		And the Atlas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By just a little.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it was more like one in 25.
unidentified		As a human being, who polices the people or who's in charge to make the decision to say, well, you know, if we have an accident, we can kill so many billion people, but that's okay.
		Let's go ahead and do that.
		You know, we don't have a choice.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that's the whole point that I was trying to make.
		Whether you consider what he was saying alarmist or not, I think that the American people, the people of the world, have a right to know what the risks are and that it should not take freedom of information demands requests to discern what the real risks are.
		In other words, NASA should be upfront and should say, here's what we're doing.
		Here's what could happen.
		Because they have all this on paper.
		It's just that you've got to pry it out from them.
unidentified		Well, you know, I listen to your show every night because I work all the nights.
		And when I can't listen to it up here on 1190 KEX, they play your rebroadcast.
		But let me tell you, I think that you're right.
		We have a voice, and we just need to say it.
		And this is one avenue.
		And I think your listeners should have other avenues that you can direct us to to voice our opinions besides writing.
		Okay?
		Hey, thanks a lot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, sir, and take care.
		Yeah, I'm not even saying we shouldn't do it.
		There are risks attendant with nearly everything we do in space.
		Even more minor risks if a spacecraft should come down over a populated area.
		Lots of risks.
		But look, when you're dealing with 75 pounds of plutonium, a particularly poisonous variety, then I think that it is or should be public information and there should be a national debate about it.
		It is, for those of you who tuned in late, the Cassini launch, which is going to examine the Saturn system.
		It will take years to get there.
		On board will be nearly 75 pounds, 70 plus pounds of plutonium-238, which is particularly egregiously poisonous.
		And there are two risk points.
		One is the launch itself of Titan IV.
		And the other is when the spacecraft comes back, in other words, before it goes to Saturn, it's going to go out and then come back and use a close Earth pass to accelerate the spacecraft.
		It will pass within 200 and 500 miles of Earth.
		That's close, very close.
		And should the spacecraft re-enter, should there be an error, and things after all can go wrong, that much plutonium dispersed in the atmosphere would be horridly dangerous.
		They claim that it's in a safe-like atmosphere, you know, a vault-like atmosphere.
		But I think the reality, as described by my guests, is quite different.
		And again, I'm not suggesting that the mission should be canceled, just that the American people and the world's people should know what we're risking.
		That's all.
		And it should not take freedom of information requests, demands even, to get the information.
		And even then, it doesn't really get out to the people unless I, you know, we line somebody up like I had as a guest.
		It's just wrong.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
		Greetings are.
unidentified		This is Dale from Lake Stevens, Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dale, I can barely hear you.
unidentified		This is Dale from Lake Stevens, Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's better.
unidentified		I'm right here near Tulala, where that lady called from.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And my lights did go out.
		The strange thing was, Yes.
		But I was on the cord list, and even though they went out, the photon stayed on.
		The what?
		The phone stayed on even though we got on the cord list.
		So I'm wondering, like, was it time froze?
		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's no way to tell.
unidentified		Yeah, but let's say I've been listening to your show ever since Madman Market was on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a long time ago now.
unidentified		Oh, I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Madman may be elsewhere now.
unidentified		Somewhere, somewhere.
		Yep, just name of your show.
		Oh, thanks live.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, take care.
		So there's somebody backing up what that lady said.
		And I imagine she's listening for the crunch of leaves and twigs outside by now.
		East of the Rockies or on the air, hi.
unidentified		Yeah, I think Mad Man might be in Seattle tonight, as a matter of fact.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're where?
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		I think Mad Man might have returned to Seattle tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that might have been a little bit.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		I have one question real quick.
		Did you make a change in Rochester yet?
		I think the normal Rochester station.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, we did change to another station.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think they're $1,280 on the dial.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		$1,280?
		Yep.
		Okay.
		One of the best investments I ever made was that select antenna, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, tell people how well that works.
unidentified		Oh, it's incredible.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		I'm here in Albany, New York.
unidentified		I've called before, and there's no station this year to pick you up.
unidentified		But I get you out of Chicago, get you out of Cleveland, Philadelphia, and Rochester.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		I used to, and I'm still trying to pick you up in Rochester.
unidentified		Right.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's a great product, Art.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Talk to you soon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, take care.
		He's using a select antenna, and at night, The select antenna will cut fading, you know, that in-out stuff by about 90%.
		It's a remarkable product.
		Remarkable.
		It was actually invented for navigation.
		And then one day somebody discovered the remarkable effect it had on receiving broadcast.
		So it's one of those fortuitous accidents.
		That's how most things are invented.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Mr. Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		It's been a long time.
		I've been trying to get in touch with you.
		I sent you an email approximately two months ago concerning vampirism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Vampires?
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Did you receive it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I remember getting some email about vampires.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What specifically did it say?
unidentified		Precisely that I'm from New Orleans, New Orleans, Louisiana.
		I'm calling from Florida right now.
		I've been involved in a vampire society for most of my adult life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're telling me you are a vampire?
unidentified		Yes, Mr. Bell, I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Um, okay.
unidentified		I sent you an email because I was going to go public with information concerning vampirism in America and how it's affected in the media.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the media basically ignores it, except, of course, for movies and television and that sort of thing.
unidentified		For disinformation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And so here is an opportunity then to learn the true story behind vampirism.
		What is your story?
		What is an American vampire?
unidentified		An American vampire.
		That's right.
		It's true that the media ignores it because I did rent out a conference room at the Plaza at the whole press conference in New York two months ago.
		I sent you an email concerning it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, you know what?
		I would have remembered that.
		You were going to have a press conference?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And announce you're a vampire.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
unidentified		And no one from any legitimate media sources in New York arrived.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no.
unidentified		You know, tabloid journalists and assorted, I can't even put words to them.
unidentified		Underground.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Lowlives.
unidentified		Yes, arrived at the plaza, and no one would take it seriously.
unidentified		And it's basically because vampirism is a lot larger than people think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay, I will take it seriously.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let us discuss what a vampirism really is and isn't.
unidentified		It's a way of life.
		It's a known fact where all these myths come from that the sun does drain energy from our bodies.
		That's why we are creatures of the night.
		That's why we do go out nocturnally.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you, as you know, in the movies we'll show a vampire actually sizzling and burning up in the sun.
unidentified		Disinformation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Disinformation.
		I thought as much.
		Well, there you are.
unidentified		But the sun does weaken you, just like anyone else.
		And people who do thrive on blood and other bodily fluids are affected even more by the sun.
		And the moon does energize people.
		And people who are in the vampire lifestyle do know of this, and that's why they do travel by night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let us hit the bottom line here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you actually drink blood?
unidentified		Yes, Mr. Bell, I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Human or animal or both?
unidentified		There have been times of both.
unidentified		I try to stay with animal blood.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, what little I know of vampires, the more, you know, this sounds silly, but the more ethical or moralistic vamps go for animal blood and pretty much leave humans alone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that true?
unidentified		Yes.
		A lot of the kids who are now getting involved in this pseudo-vampire cult and the romanticism of vampirism, they're experimenting with human blood.
		But human blood is only taken from vampire to vampire in rituals, also in sexual activities.
		It heightens the senses, but only with the partner you're with.
		For feeding mostly cattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Cattle?
unidentified		Mostly cattle.
		I had a club in New Orleans.
		It was called the Blue Crystal.
		It was a vampire bar, and we had associations with local butcher shops, and we would get cattle blood, and we would serve it with alcoholic beverages.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you, lovely, how do you go into a butcher shop and ask for blood reasonably?
unidentified		You have to understand the city of New Orleans.
unidentified		The city of New Orleans has been...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You would mention it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to go to New Orleans.
unidentified		By the Blue Crystal on Decatur Street.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		But don't mention my name.
unidentified		I am sort of an outcast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why?
unidentified		Because I did go public on cable access television in New Orleans concerning vampirism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, they don't like the limelight as well as sunlight.
unidentified		Pretty much, Mr. Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How did you become a vampire?
unidentified		I was introduced to it by a woman.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Figured.
unidentified		14 years old.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Seduced.
unidentified		You could call it that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I did.
unidentified		Many female vampires also suck you by.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm sure.
unidentified		And yeah, that's a pun there.
		But I was introduced to the lifestyle.
		I was introduced not only to the heightening of the senses, but also the social stature in the city of New Orleans.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is it about New Orleans, anyway, that is conducive to this sort of thing?
unidentified		I think it came from the West Indies and also the European influence.
unidentified		New Orleans is the most European city in this nation, and it holds very strongly to its European values.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it also is the home to Anne Rice, who writes about people of your ilk.
unidentified		Yes, Anne is a very special lady.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, vampires generally look at the work of Anne Rice as flattery.
unidentified		The work of Anne Rice is, I will tell you now, Mr. Bell, more fact than fiction than she will let the public know about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I had a feeling that might have been true, actually.
unidentified		Miss Rice was repaid for a favor.
		And I don't care if telling you this now, these are things I am, oh, can you believe a vampire with goosebumps?
		I have them now.
		But Miss Rice was repaid by a vampire in New Orleans.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure I want to know more about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think we'll just leave it there.
unidentified		Well, her success came back.
		Her success was given to her by a vampire.
		And she is highly successful, and she always will be.
		And she's highly protected.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long is there any difference in the lifespan of a vampire and a normal mortal?
unidentified		Mr. Bell, I would be happy to send you a photo of myself.
		I am 38 years old.
		I look like I'm 22.
		I entered in vampirism at the age of 14, and I will say that I've aged eight years and 24 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not bad.
unidentified		Not bad at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Beats most skin creams.
		But, you know, it's such a distasteful thing, this drinking of blood.
		How do you get past that part?
unidentified		It's actually flavored.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Flavored?
unidentified		Different flavorings.
		It's not what you see in the movies where someone just goes to someone's neck or rips open a vein.
		It's ingested through other means.
		Like I say, at our bar, The Blue Crystal, alcoholic beverages were laced with blood.
		Also, the food you ingest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Giving new name to Bloody Marys.
unidentified		Yes, or Blood Sausage.
unidentified		Oh, great, a Blood Sausage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, is there anything else critical that we should?
unidentified		I wish people would have came to the press conference.
unidentified		All I want you to know is that the media...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why did you want to hold a press conference?
		Why did you want to go public?
		What was your motive?
unidentified		Because of the youth of today.
		Your term, the quickening, is very on target.
		I know.
		We have a lost generation.
		People who are my age, in their mid to late 30s, they're going to be a valued commodity because there is no generation to follow them.
		They're very few and far between.
		Vampirism is contributing to that.
		We have serious vampire cults from Florida all the way to Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're trying to tell the American people there are many more vampires than they might imagine?
unidentified		Yes, and they're not the kids you see with the black makeup and the pale white skin and all this.
		They're the ones who are basically the stormtroopers, they're the ground troops.
		The people behind the media are promoting this, promoting bands like Marilyn Manson, promoting all these bands, and getting the youth involved in it, but not letting them up to the upper echelon to know what the plan is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is the plan?
unidentified		Basically to dispose of this last generation.
		Wow.
		The human race will not be around much longer, now that we know it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No?
unidentified		There are people in levels of society who know about it.
unidentified		They know of the plan.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How many vampires do you think are there now in America?
unidentified		Over a million.
		A million vampires?
		Yes, Mr. Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's frightening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That really is frightening.
unidentified		You can read up and pick up any magazine, people, variety, and read names.
unidentified		And 20% of the names you'll read in variety are vampires.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		We're talking major studio heads, major corporate executives.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So there are more vampires by percentage in Hollywood then, for example, than there are elsewhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Say in St. Louis.
unidentified		Well, actually, if you you look towards a city like Chicago, the birthplace of Walt Disney.
unidentified		Walt Disney was a vampire, Mr. Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was he really?
unidentified		And the tradition follows in that company.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I've heard so much about Walt Disney, but that's one thing I've never heard.
		That he was a vampire.
		And so maybe.
		Oh, really?
unidentified		And the tradition carries down people in the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But he did so many good things, Walt did, that it's hard to imagine him as a vampire.
unidentified		I'm not saying vampires are evil.
unidentified		They live a different living.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm sure from your point of view, you wouldn't believe that, of course.
unidentified		You know, of course, he did many wonderful things, but he lived a certain lifestyle.
		And that lifestyle, it has been perverted.
		That's what I'm trying to say.
		They know what's happening in this world.
		They know where the human race is headed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they don't care.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Your intent, then, was to let the world know we're here.
unidentified		Uh-huh.
unidentified		Quit hiding the fact.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're coming out of the casket, so to speak.
unidentified		I like that.
unidentified		Maybe put that on a t-shirt in my next business endeavor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, that is what it amounts to, isn't it?
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, listen, I really have got to leave, I'm afraid, because we're at the bottom of the hour.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But this has been an unusual discussion.
unidentified		Mr. Bell, keep it in mind.
unidentified		If you have your email filed on computer, try to find that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I'll see what I can do.
		Otherwise, send it again.
		Thanks for the call and call us again.
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		Good evening, Mr. Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you too.
		Chow.
		Oh, was right.
		Only here.
		Only with unscreened calls.
		You think you would have heard that on anybody else's program?
		No way, Jose.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time, tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 9th, 1997.
		Can't stay with my without your role.
		Oh baby, don't leave me this way, no I can't accept I I'm sure you're in the care.
		Don't leave me this way.
		Baby, my heart is full of love and desire for you.
		Now go down and do what you gotta do.
		You started the fire down in my phone.
		Now can't you see it's burning?
		You started the fire down in my phone.
		You started the fire down in my phone.
		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time, tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 9th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Reading from the Associated Press again, a Staten woman says she found a double crop circle in a wheat field near Highway 22.
		Marianne Koch says the formation is about 50 to 60 feet across and is located in a field about 100 yards northeast of the Silver Creek Falls exit.
		Koch admits she's fascinated by crop circles, so she contacted the media in order to document this one.
		The first recorded case is from England in 1973, but public interest waned in the early 1990s when two British men confessed to having made the first formation.
		The circles, of course, are typically found in wheat or barley fields.
		Guess who I've got on the phone?
		I've got Mary Ann Koch on the phone.
		The one who found this particular circle.
		coming up in a moment.
		Well, all right.
		Here is Mary Ann Koch.
		Marianne, are you there?
unidentified		Yes, I'm here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you on a portable phone?
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, for some reason we have hum on the line.
		But we'll put up with it.
		Marianne, you located this crop circle.
		You found this crop circle.
unidentified		Well, I don't think I was probably the first one to see it, but I was the first one to report it or that had enough excitement about it and took it forth to hope that other people would see it.
		I was just driving home from my store about 7 o'clock in the evening, and I usually spend more time looking around the scenery and the sky and everything that I do the road.
		And I just looked over and said, oh, wow, there's a crop circle.
		And then I realized I'd missed the exit.
		And then I said, my God, it really is a crop circle, I think.
		And so I was late getting home, so I went on home because I'd missed the exit.
		And the next morning, I stopped and I got out of my car.
		And there's road construction going on right in front of the area where this field is.
		And this heavy equipment is going back and forth.
		And I'm looking through the dust.
		I'm looking over saying, you know, that it isn't sprinklers that have made circles.
		It isn't other anomalies that you've normally seen in fields.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is this field?
unidentified		What's growing?
unidentified		Wheat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wheat fields.
unidentified		Yes.
		All right.
		And it's just a very precise double circle.
		And that, to me, was a dead giveaway for what way?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A circle within a circle or circles connected to each other or what?
unidentified		No, it's a circle within a circle.
		Oh.
		And it has a pathway or an opening that goes from the center to what we'd call the top that is on kind of a side hill.
		And it's, you know, I was pretty excited about it, but from the ground you couldn't see it very well.
		So that was Wednesday morning.
		And by Thursday morning, I'd called the newspaper, and they said they would get somebody, you know, over to talk to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		But nobody responded.
		Then I called again the next morning.
		They said, oh, they declined to cover it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		Yeah.
		I thought that was pretty interesting.
		So I said, well, thank you very much.
		I'm going to call the next biggest paper I know.
		And I called Portland.
		And they said, yeah, we'll come down.
		It did take them a little longer than I hope, but it was over the 4th of July.
		And on Saturday morning, we met out at the field, and they did some filming.
		And they also went up the helicopter and took some overhead shots.
		And I went up in an airplane on Sunday.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
unidentified		Shot a bunch of film up, and I'll send you the whole set of the prints.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it fairly impressive from the air?
unidentified		Well, it's actually, I think by crop circle standards, it's sort of small, very clean looking.
		It's, yes, it's a nice little crop circle, I'd say.
		It's probably, well, I skipped, the guy that called you a little while ago, he actually went out there and measured it, and I'm surprised he didn't say anything to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do we know about, how big is it?
unidentified		About 45.5 feet across.
unidentified		And it has a signature off to the side, which I didn't know what a signature was exactly until I got a call from the Research Center for Crop Circle Studies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And they were telling me that in the signature, or the funny little downed graph on the side, that the anomalies that they find when they examine it are about 100 times more active or more changed than in the actual circle itself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In the signature.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There is a Dr. Leavengood.
		I'm sure you know of him.
		Have they sent samples to Dr. Leavengood?
unidentified		Well, that's why it surprised me that Scott didn't say a word.
		Scott's the one that's supposed to have, I mean, Skip's the one that's supposed to have taken the samples and sent them there.
		Okay.
		So I'm hoping that that happened because he got to the farmer before I did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What's the farmer got to say about all this?
unidentified		Well, he claims he found it about four days before I did, and that he wasn't going to really say too much about it.
unidentified		And he was pretty upset with me for putting it in the paper.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you know, I understand that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, they're afraid people are going to go tromping across their field and ruin their crop.
unidentified		Well, there are people who are disrespectful and have walked in this field.
		But proportionately, I mean, most of the people walk on the one little tiny path that has been put in there, and most people will just stay off this field.
		But there's a few people that have gone in the circle.
		I've not yet gone out there because I just don't feel right about doing that without permission.
		But the air photographs are cool.
		But what I want to really say is that after we examined these air photographs and saw the signature and a few things on here, I was talking to Charlotte King in Salem, and she's...
		Okay.
		And she and I discovered that on these photographs, you can see some kind of energy pathways that makes a different pattern on the whole field.
		And it shows up in all the photographs, both the ones taken from 1,500 feet and the ones taken from 1,800 feet.
		And they come in from each corner, and then there's sort of a bar through the middle that connects them.
		And the crop circle isn't really on the exact grid of this other pattern.
		And it looks sort of like a 12-foot-wide, sort of like brushing effect.
		And it has little swirl lines across it.
		And it's fairly subtle, and yet you can pick it out once you know what you're looking for.
		You can see it in all these photos.
		So I'm going to send you a whole set.
		I want you to see that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll scan them and get them on the website.
unidentified		Great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So everybody can see it.
unidentified		I don't know what those energy lines are, but it's just something new that I, I don't know.
unidentified		It's great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was there any evidence that a human being did it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, were there, I guess that's really hard because I'm sure There were tracks there by the time you saw it.
unidentified		Well, actually, by the time I saw it, there was only one little sign that one person had walked in, and I assumed that was the farmer to see what was in the field.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did he indicate over what period it formed, or did he just sort of find it one day?
unidentified		He said one day it wasn't there, and the next day it was.
		And Skip, who called in earlier, I'm surprised he didn't say more because he gained the confidence of the farmer early, but after Skip, this is what I understand, after Skip took the samples and whatever, he told the farmer that he was fairly convinced that it wasn't a real crop circle.
		And Skip belongs to MUFON and so forth.
		But I don't know how many crop circles he's actually seen, probably about as many as I have, which is like, now we're counting one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've never seen one in person.
unidentified		Yeah, well, the sure sign of it is I've been trained in remote viewing, and so I didn't want to go in the crop circle because I just didn't feel right since I didn't have permission.
		But I figured I could remote view it.
		Well, I happened to sit down and do my remote viewing about the time they were taking samples.
		I didn't really know that, but when I got there, I found them taking samples.
		And what I found out, too, was that after they left there, they didn't feel very well, which is, I think, normal after you get in a crop circle, there's a lot of electromagnetic energy.
		Yeah, that can affect you.
		You can have headache and stomachache and that kind of thing.
		So I'm surprised he didn't say any of that to you.
		But maybe we can get him to call back and fill in some blanks here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe.
		I certainly appreciate the information you've given me.
		It's not every day you get to talk to somebody who actually found a crop circle.
unidentified		Well, I have another little piece of news that now that we got it on the newspaper, a couple people called me and said, oh, is this the one that's over between Corvallis and Independence?
		And I said, no, this is the one between State and Salem.
		So there may be another one over here because some people said, oh, I saw one over, you know, and I said, I have to go see if they really saw one or not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, now, what's going on in Oregon?
unidentified		Well, there's been a lot of triangle ships showing up.
		There's been a lot of lights in the sky.
		There's been some blue lightning the other night.
		A number of things are going on that we don't know what it's all about yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we're in a strange time, Marianne.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We really are.
unidentified		Yes, we are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, look, I sincerely appreciate the information and any follow-ups.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have my address?
unidentified		I have your fax address, but I don't know if...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You need my mailing address.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're going to send it.
unidentified		I've got your newsletter.
unidentified		It's in there, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's see.
		Is it?
		I think it is.
		If not, let me give it to you now.
unidentified		Okay, great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You ready?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's P.O. Box 4755.
unidentified		4755.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In Perump.
		P-A-H-R-U-M-P.
		Nevada.
		zip code 89041.
		Dash 4755.
		And if you'll get me the photos, I'll get them on the website.
unidentified		I will get them right off to you tomorrow, and I'll send them special quick mail.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, consider it done.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mary Ann Koch, thank you.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		There's a lady who found the crop circle, folks, in Oregon.
		And there may be a second one in Oregon.
unidentified		Hmm.
unidentified		Hmm...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is going on?
		These really are strange times.
		Anybody out there have the feeling of a definite impending event?
		On my international line, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hey, good hi, Art.
unidentified		How are you doing from Australia?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'm doing very well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What part of Australia are you in?
unidentified		This is Mark in Melbourne.
unidentified		I've told you before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Mark.
unidentified		Yeah, this has been an interesting show tonight, and I want you to know that you get this amazing echo on tonight's playout on the internet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		Yeah, you get a bunch of repeats.
unidentified		So I'll wait until you finish your live, and I'll go back and pull down the archive and see whether it was actually the internet, my connection, or maybe your satellite.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's hard to say.
		There are so many links in between here and Australia.
		It takes about seven or eight jumps before it gets to Australia.
unidentified		Yeah, I can appreciate that.
unidentified		I just wanted to talk about an article I saw in one of our newspapers a couple days ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		And it talked about a bloke from Sacramento who's in the real estate business.
		And what is he selling?
		The moon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I believe he has also now begun to sell plots on Mars as a real estate.
unidentified		I wouldn't doubt it.
		You know, the guy's already making money off of it, and it's not illegal.
		And, you know, some of them have got some little towns, some people named towns on the moon already.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that he has named himself master of the universe or something.
unidentified		Something strange like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And as master of the universe, why he is also realtor of the universe.
		And that's a pretty good deal, actually, when you think about it.
		There's also a company that will name a star after you for a certain amount of money.
		Not that it is official in any way, but they send you a little map of where your star is, and you've got a star.
unidentified		My goodness, what a sight on real capitalism.
		Well, I'll let you go.
		It's been a great show, and from Australia, we want to just say keep up the good work and say hello to all the other Australians that are down here listening to you, including my friend Stan Davo.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, and good morning to you, Stan.
		Thank you very much for the call.
		From down under, where the seasons are different, it is now their winter time there.
		Can you imagine that?
		Their wintertime.
		Or summertime.
		Even though it hasn't quite been the summer it should have been so far anyway.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		This is Jeff from Pinson, Alabama.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How you doing, Jeff?
unidentified		Pretty good.
unidentified		I want to talk to that guy who said he was a vampire.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, he's already gone, unfortunately.
unidentified		Yeah, just, uh...
unidentified		He said he didn't like being out in sunlight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		I guess he doesn't like nuclear power either.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a question.
		I wonder how they feel about nuclear power.
		It's not exactly the same as sunlight.
unidentified		It's pretty much.
		I mean, can you imagine what would happen if the Reagan administration had invented the sun?
		Imagine a giant, continuously exploding hydrogen bomb with no shielding.
		Good God, your first guest had blown a blood vessel.
		It's okay.
		I mean, it's okay that we can put a little bit of, you know, 72 pounds of plutonium like there's not more uranium than that up under the ground, leaking radon gas all over the place we don't have anything to do with.
		Now, if we want to get rid of it and shoot out into space where it doesn't hurt anybody, now we're going to blow a blue vessel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait a minute now.
		Hold on now.
		Uranium-238 is pretty serious stuff.
		And should it re-enter the atmosphere, there'd be a lot of unhappy campers, believe me.
unidentified		Well, that's already happened in Canada.
		Not everybody's dead.
		I think, to me, technophobia is a lot more frightening than any amount of plutonium.
		Because remember, the dinosaurs were destroyed because of their lack of technology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, had they been able to shoot that KT event thing out of the sky before it arrived, they'd still be here roaming the Earth and we'd be an afterthought.
unidentified		Very true.
		In fact, I think I know of a new conspiracy.
		See, I think that the vampires, first they're going to ban all of our space probes, then they're going to ban the sun.
		And since we'll all be bumping around in the dark, we'll have to be vampires, see?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that's kind of what he was driving at anyway.
unidentified		Yeah, we'll just all be in the dark, and the ecologists say we don't need sunlight anymore.
		That photosynthesis, that's on its way out.
		We're all going to this chemosynthesis, and we'll just go down to the oceans and stay around smokers and hug our dolphins.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't get a lot of sun.
		I mean, I work these hours, so I don't get a lot of sun.
		I am not, however, a vampire.
unidentified		You know, I think I just might be because I don't like garlic.
		I've been a security guard for too long.
		I don't even remember what the sunlight looks anymore.
		And can you imagine an Alabama redneck vampire?
		God help us all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I thank you for the call.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		An Alabama redneck vampire.
unidentified		Huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in the back of his pickup truck, he'd probably have like an IV bottle or something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on there.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Hey, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, yes.
unidentified		Hey, is Josh in Pasco, Washington?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Hey, I was just wondering to ask you two questions.
		Okay.
		Okay, are there really men in black?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		There are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Where do they work out of, from, supposedly?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Men in black headquarters.
unidentified		Which is in where you think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, now, you know, I can't talk about that.
unidentified		Hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But, I mean, that's the best answer I can give you right now.
unidentified		Hmm.
unidentified		So is there any possibility that, like, if something like that freaky occurrence up in Seattle, they would respond to?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Only if there is evidence of it lurking or held by somebody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then, of course, men in black are dispatched to take that evidence.
unidentified		Also, one last question.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		What kind of smokes do you smoke?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Cigarettes?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Carlton 120s.
unidentified		Carlton 120s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they're almost not a cigarette in the sense that they have so little tar and nicotine in them, supposedly, that, you know, like, you know, every now and then somebody will bum a cigarette from you?
unidentified		Mm-hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or want to?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I'll say sure, and I'll pull out my cigarettes and they'll say no thanks.
unidentified		Really?
		Yeah.
		Well, I used to smoke some Saratoga 120s, and people were constantly addicted and bumming them from me.
karl grossman ▲ ● ▼		Really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
		I'm always embarrassed.
		I mean, I offer them and they say, hey, I meant a real cigarette.
unidentified		Well, those are real cigarettes.
unidentified		They're manly cigarettes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm talking about my Carltons.
unidentified		Okay, well, thank you, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		You're welcome.
		It really is embarrassing.
		Can I bomb a cigarette?
		Oh, sure, here.
		Oh, well, no, thank you.
		And I moved to these years ago.
		I used to smoke Salems.
		That was a decade ago or so.
		And I noticed they were pretty harsh on me.
		So I switched to the Carltons, and they seemed better.
		Milder.
		Almost not a cigarette, in a sense.
		But still satisfying.
		Satisfying to the heroin-like habitual cravings that I have.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Oh, hello.
		Hello.
		Actually, you know, Art, I'm called to tell you a story because I think you're probably the only person who's open-minded enough on radio to believe it, or at least to contemplate it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll contemplate it.
unidentified		Okay, when I was a child, before I was in first grade, there were seven kids in my family, and my older sister, she's almost three years older than me, there was an empty lot behind our house.
unidentified		We lived in a huge Dutch colonial house in San Francisco.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Now, I went to go get my sister because my mother said it was dinner time.
		So I ran in the backyard and climbed up the brick trellis and looked over the fence and tried to hop onto the 2x4 and look over.
		And my sister was on the ground with two men in black.
		I know that's so cliche.
		They were dressed in black with black hats.
		And one of them had a syringe to her arm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, man.
unidentified		And I screamed her name.
unidentified		I can see this like a movie in my head all my life, and I'm 41.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Men in black with needles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's horrible.
unidentified		I know.
unidentified		And I remember it to this day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is this the story that was supposed to cheer me up?
unidentified		Well, no, but just to let you know that, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to have a guest on Men in Black.
unidentified		Oh, yeah?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, not a laughable thing, a serious thing.
unidentified		Well, this was serious.
unidentified		My sister doesn't remember it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, I'm going to have a guest.
		Listen, my program is ending.
unidentified		Well, I should say goodnight to all of America for you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And not just America, but Canada and Australia and, you know, everybody.
unidentified		All our buddies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night, all.
unidentified		Thanks, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's it from the high desert.

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