Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool

All Episodes

Previous Next

July 9, 1997 - Art Bell

02:45:32

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Pending Cassini Launch - Karl Grossman

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Time	Text
	Welcome to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM, from July 9th, 1997.
	From the high desert and the great American southwest, I bid you all good evening or good morning, depending on your time zone.
	Prolific as they are in our coverage area, from the Tahitian and Hawaiian island chains in the west, all the way east, to the U.S.
	Virgin Islands.
	South, well into South America.
	North, all the way to the pole.
	And worldwide on the internet, ye olde internet, Courtesy of AudioNet in Dallas.
	Thank you, folks.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	I'm Art Bell.
	And we are now on Mars.
	Soon, we are due to go to Saturn with a mission called Cassini.
	It'll be a four-year close-up study of the Saturn system, including the planet's atmosphere and magnetic field, the rings and several moons.
	The mission represents a rare opportunity to gain significant insights into major scientific questions about the creation of the solar system and the conditions that led to life here on Earth.
	In addition to a host of questions specific to the Saturn system, as the best instrumented probe ever to be sent to another planet, Cassini will produce the most complete information about a planet system ever obtained.
	That is the upside.
	My guest coming up in a moment, Carl Grossman, has what may be the downside.
	At least certainly something that we should all be aware of.
	Just wait until you hear what it is.
	Well alright, I have experienced victory over my computer.
	And I, again tonight, like my computer.
	Um, last night I had the Tri Studio Cams off.
	You know, we have three cameras here that take photographs of me as we do the program.
	And I may be soon adding a fourth that will be out of doors.
	I'm working on that now.
	Uh, yesterday I had a computer torn totally apart in here, and it was so messy, I was embarrassed to have it on.
	So, I finally got everything whooped.
	And the studio cam is back on live tonight, so if you go to the website, you can take a look-see.
	That is www.artbell.com.
	We're on Mars, we're talking about going to Saturn, and now comes Carl Grossman.
	Carl Grossman has for 30 years specialized in investigative reporting on environmental and energy issues, for which he has received the George Polk Award, Among many other honors.
	He is a full professor of journalism at the State University of New York College at Old Westbury, where he is the coordinator of the college's Media and Communications Department.
	Books he has authored include Power Crazy, Cover Up What You Are Not Supposed to Know About Nuclear Power, and the forthcoming The Wrong Stuff.
	The Space Program's Nuclear Threat to Our Planet.
	Articles by Grossman on environmental and energy issues have appeared in The New York Times, Newsday, The Nation, Mother Jones, The Village Voice, The Globe, The Philadelphia Inquirer, Environmental Action, Extra, The Boston Phoenix, The San Francisco Bay Guardian, The Crisis, Common Cause Magazine, And so forth and so on.
	He is program director and vice president of EnviroVideo, which is a New York-based company that produces environmental television documentary and news programming.
	He hosted, wrote, and co-produced EnviroVideo's documentary, Nukes in Space, the nuclearization and weaponization of the heavens.
	Wait a minute, we don't have weapons up there, do we?
	Which received the gold medal at the World Fest Houston International Film Festival, and Three Mile Island Revisited, which, by the way, received the silver medal at the World Fest Festival.
	Among the courses he teaches at the State University of New York College at Old Westbury are environmental journalism, investigative reporting, and politics of media.
	He lectures widely on environmental and energy issues.
	Here is Carl Grossman.
	Carl, welcome to the program.
	A pleasure, Art.
	I read you a little ditty there on the upside of why go to Saturn.
	It's subtitled, New Knowledge.
	In other words, here we have an opportunity to explore a planet which will bring us much information about our own beginnings, I suppose.
	And that's highlighted by the fact we're on Mars now with Sojourner and Rover.
	And we're getting all these photographs back, showing all these cool rocks.
	Now, it is the Cassini mission, I believe, that will go to Saturn, correct?
	Yes.
	Uh-huh.
	So, why not go to Saturn?
	Look at all the wonderful world of information we know about Mars now.
	A great flood.
	Barnacle build a rock.
	Let's see, what else do we know?
	There's quartz, a lot of quartz on Mars, and it's very Earth-like.
	So we are learning things about Mars.
	And when is Cassini due to launch?
	October 6th of this year.
	Okay.
	What are your concerns?
	I have no problem whatsoever with the space program.
	I don't think there's anybody on Earth who I saw the pictures from Mars in the last several days who wasn't thrilled.
	I mean, it's just wonderful.
	It's just terrific.
	But the issue to me is, let's explore space safely.
	Let's not do it in a way that a portion of life on Earth might be destroyed in the process.
	And my concern has to do with the use of nuclear technology.
	For various space devices and the possibility of some of the nuclear poisons, the radionuclides involved being dispersed and affecting people and other life back here on Earth.
	Here on Earth.
	Well, that is a good concern.
	What exactly is going to be on the Cassini mission that concerns you?
	Well, they're going to get electricity.
	This isn't power, electricity.
	From plutonium, in fact, an isotope of plutonium which is extraordinarily toxic, not the plutonium-239 that most people are familiar with, the stuff that atomic bombs use as fuel or is built up in nuclear plants, but the fuel, the plutonium oxide, primarily what it's composed of is plutonium-238, which is 280 times More radioactive than 239, and they're using this in what I call radioisotope thermoelectric generators, two, three of them on Cassini, to produce a very modest amount of electricity, 745 watts on an average.
	For the instruments on Cassini, we could have a problem on launch.
	They're going to, uh... What kind of vehicle are they using?
	Is it a Saturn IV?
	No, it's a Titan IV.
	Titan IV.
	The Saturn's from the old Apollo program.
	Of course you're right, yes.
	Unfortunately, they're not building them.
	In fact, there's some thinking that if they had a bigger rocket, like the old Saturn, they might be able to avoid... There's a fly-by scheme, which is of the greatest concern on Cassini, but they could use a Titan IV.
	And the Titan IV doesn't have a 100% It's a record of good launches.
	In fact, in 1993, at the Vandenberg Air Force Base, there was a launch of a Titan IV, which went haywire 101 seconds after launch, blew a spy satellite system to smithereens.
	19 launches of Titan IVs, this is one very serious accident, so it's about 1 out of 19.
	It's about a 5% failure rate.
	If the Titan 4 carrying Cassini blows on October 6th, if they go ahead with this launch, there is a possibility of some of the plutonium being released, particularly if a hard surface is struck by some of the modules containing the plutonium, and a possibility of a dispersal, thus, in the neighboring communities.
	How much plutonium oxide, 238, will be on it?
	It's 72.3 pounds, which is more plutonium fuel.
	We've flown, at this point, 25 plutonium fuel.
	The U.S.
	has 25 plutonium fuel space shots.
	And this is the most plutonium, the 72 pounds, that has ever been put on a space device.
	All right.
	There is some plan.
	Now, I'm not quite clear on what they're going to do.
	There are two concerns.
	One is the launch itself.
	Right.
	And I understand that.
	The other concern, though, somehow, are they coming back to Earth, or are they going to use Earth as a slingshot effect to head out towards Saturn, or what's the deal?
	Right.
	Kind of both are.
	They're coming back, as they said in that old movie.
	The plutonium, as I say, isn't being used for propulsion.
	The Cassini probe is to be propelled in space by a very conventionally powered rocket, a Centaur rocket, chemically fueled.
	Now, it doesn't have the power to get the Cassini probe directly from Earth to its final destination, which is Saturn, and Saturn's moons, particularly Titan, and thus NASA has devised a scheme A flyby scheme, or a gravity assist maneuver, that's what NASA calls it, in which Cassini will be sent instead of to Saturn, first off, to Venus.
	And it's going to circle Venus twice and pick up a little velocity because of Venus's gravity.
	And then in 1999, in August of 1999, it's to become hurtling back at the Earth for a flyby, to make use of Earth's gravity.
	It's to come in at 42,300 miles an hour.
	And it's to be, the original plan was for it to be 312 miles high.
	Now there's some discussion by NASA putting it up a little higher, 500 miles high.
	But in any case, this thing is going to whip in at essentially 300 to 500 miles high.
	And if there is a miscalculation, if there is a problem, if there's an accident, They happen all the time in space.
	Just look at the Mir Space Station event just last week, or of course the Challenger accident.
	But if there is a mishap, and this thing doesn't whip in at that right altitude... If it would re-enter the Earth's atmosphere at 42,000 miles an hour.
	Yeah.
	Well, if it did that, and the Earth's atmosphere is 75 miles high, so we're not talking much of a margin of error.
	It's not coming in at 20,000 miles an hour.
	Coming in just a few hundred miles high, it would disintegrate.
	And a good portion, and this NASA admits, they don't admit it in their PR.
	Their PR, they keep talking about these modules being like bank vaults, and they have quite a PR operation.
	But in fact, if you look at the environmental impact statement, which can be obtained from NASA, the final environmental impact statement, For the Cassini mission, what it says, and I'm reading right here from page 4, hyphen 51.
	For all the re-entry cases studied, about 32 to 34 percent of the fuel from the three RTGs, those are the radioisotope thermoelectric generators, is expected to be released at high altitude.
	Now this is the real worrisome thing.
	The fraction of the fuel particles released during the re-entry Estimated to be reduced to vapor or respirable particles ranges from 66% for very shallow re-entries to about 20% for steep re-entries.
	The problem with plutonium is that if it becomes a dust and people breathe in that dust or vapor... Even I know that's very bad.
	It's horrendous.
	Plutonium has been described over and over again as the most toxic And it's the most toxic, it's the most lethal if it's not water soluble and if a person just breathes in that microscopic pin dot, even smaller than a pin dot of plutonium, lodges in the lung, it doesn't wash out, it irradiates that portion of the lung and the impact could easily be lung cancer.
	So you're talking here about NASA admitting others, including a whistleblower at NASA, formerly with NASA, 30 years with NASA, who I've interviewed at length, Alan Cohn.
	He says he doesn't expect 32% to 34% of the plutonium being released.
	He says 100% is more like it.
	But in any case, even NASA is admitting pounds of plutonium.
	And then it goes on in the environmental impact statement in terms of how many people on the planet could be affected How many?
	Well, this is page 476.
	Let me just read it because otherwise people wouldn't believe it.
	In the unlikely event an inadvertent re-entry occurred, approximately 5 billion, that's with a B, of the estimated 7 to 8 billion world population at the time could receive 99% or more of the radiation exposure.
	Now let me hasten to say that NASA then goes on to say that this is going to mean only 2,300 They say 2,300 fatal cancers, but I've had this massive data looked over by a variety of independent scientists, and they project fatalities far above 2,000.
	They go anywhere from Dr. John Gottman, University of California, Professor Emeritus with the Manhattan Project.
	Isolated some of the first usable portions of pieces of plutonium during the war.
	A giant in the field of MD, PhD.
	He says, you're looking more at perhaps a million deaths, 900,000 to a million.
	Dr. Ernest Sternglass, Professor Emeritus, Radiological Physics, University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine.
	He speaks about 10 to 40 million deaths if this plutonium all gets out.
	And again, that goes back to my concern, you know, is Going to Saturn is wonderful.
	It would be like the Mars mission.
	We'd learn a lot.
	But do we want this kind of catastrophe to occur, particularly if it's not necessary?
	All right, well, here's what I've heard, and this is the next point that we should talk about.
	As you mentioned, they say that they're in bank vault-like conditions.
	Frankly, I live out here in the desert adjacent to the area where they're going to be putting all this really nasty stuff.
	Uh, that's supposed to be taken care of, uh, will be custodial, um, appearance for it for tens of thousands of years.
	Um, so I have a lot of concern about this sort of thing, but, you know, they run advertisements here in Nevada showing these casks that they're going to be keeping this high level waste in, and they show them dropped from, uh, helicopters.
	They show them dropped out of the back of trucks.
	They show them in collisions with trucks.
	And they've done everything but have a woman with high heels kick them.
	And, you know, trying to convince us that these things are safe.
	Now, I would imagine, with 72.3 pounds of plutonium oxide, which might do what you just described, they would indeed have this in a very, very safe container that would withstand any kind of re-entry.
	Right?
	No.
	I mean, that would be great if that was You know, if that was the situation, but they're not.
	I mean, I'm a journalist, I'm a reporter, and I frankly don't believe the PR spin, particularly in investigative reporting.
	You kind of stay away from the PR characters.
	You really want people who, often whistleblowers, people from the inside, the actual documents.
	And here, Dr. Horst Pola, He's a gentleman that worked 22 years for NASA contractors at the Kennedy Space Center.
	And here's the way he describes the shielding of this plutonium on Cassini.
	Fingernail thin, it's a joke.
	The so-called shielding, says Paul, this is a misstatement, consists of an iridium alloy shell with a thickness of .022 inches or .128 of an inch.
	Oh, wait a minute.
	I wouldn't keep my money in that.
	Well, it's sure not a bank vault.
	If that was bank vaults, Willie Sutton would have ended up to be a multi-millionaire.
	All right, listen, uh... Oh, my.
	Carl, hold on.
	We're at the bottom of the hour, and we'll be right back.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	The night featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 9th, 1997.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	The night featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 9th, 1997.
	to Coast AM from July 9, 1997.
	Imagine 72.3 pounds of plutonium oxide coming back at Earth like a bullet at 42,000 miles
	an hour, somewhere between 200 and 500 miles above Earth to slingshot it towards Saturn.
	Now, I'm sure that NASA would tell us nothing can go wrong.
	And in effect, they are telling us that.
	But even should it go wrong, they're telling us that they've got this stuff in bank vault-like conditions, right?
	So we're going to once again lay out these bank vault-like conditions for you in a moment.
	Listen, tomorrow night, John Kirby is going to be here at the beginning of the program, and he will bring with him some interviews that I think you're going to be very interested in.
	Walter Hout, who was the base PR officer at Roswell.
	Frank Kaufman, one of the men in charge of the cleanup at Roswell, will be interviewed.
	He'll play a very historic audio tape of Jesse Marcel Sr., now of course passed on, calling his son, Jesse Marcel Jr., I've interviewed on this program.
	And, uh, you're going to hear a lot of very interesting stuff like Major Edwin Easley from the 509th Bomb Group, Provost Marshall, saying that he still can't talk about the incident because he's still sworn to secrecy.
	Colonel Thomas DuBose, Chief of Staff of the 8th Air Force, saying the Bloom story was indeed a cover story to keep the press off General Ramey's back.
	So that should be a very interesting program.
	That's tomorrow night, John Kirby.
	all right uh... we will get back to our plutonium friend carl grossman
	but but but but in just a moment
	now back to call grossman Carl, you're where, in New York?
	I am in New York.
	Okay.
	All right, let us now again discuss the bank vault conditions that this 72.3 pounds of plutonium is going to be encased in.
	So that should have come flying back.
	Why?
	They will simply go to wherever this bank vault falls and pick it up intact and take it away safely, right?
	Well, that's what they would want.
	The impression that the PR people from NASA would like to lead.
	But as I say, polar Indeed, he wrote a letter on the draft environmental impact statement for Cassini.
	When he goes through these measurements, and I should just perhaps add it, it starts off with the 0.02 inches or 3 128ths of an inch of iridium, and then it's followed, he notes, by two graphite shells, each less than a quarter inch thick.
	All right, let's examine the facts.
	what is one sixteenth-inch thin aluminum and uh... you know you said that this is not uh...
	probably she'll take it all this is heavily shielded me goes on and on there
	about uh...
	as the possibility here for uh...
	he describes it doctor polar at the mother of all accidents if the total is plutonium gets out of
	all right well let's let's examine the facts are you described the shielding
	what exactly would that really withstand
	What do we know?
	It wouldn't withstand much.
	It wouldn't withstand a serious fly-by accident, where the thing would be coming at it 42,000 miles an hour.
	That re-entry scenario would, and again NASA admits, I would break up the modules containing the plutonium.
	Oh, they do admit that?
	Oh, yeah, yeah.
	It says, you know, for all re-entry cases studied, says the Environmental Impact Statement, 32 to 34 percent of the fuel is expected to be released at high altitude, and it goes on at a substantial amount of that.
	It could end up as vapor or respirable particles.
	Also, if this stuff hits a rock, I mean, if it falls down on the The cement of the Cape Canaveral Air Station, where the launch is supposed to occur on October 6th, in an accident, the cement must open this stuff.
	If it falls down, in fact, the rooting of Cassini is, first the launch from Florida, then what they do is fly it over Africa.
	I mean, first the ocean, of course, then Africa, and they admit in the environmental impact statement that if there's an accident and the stuff These modules fall on Africa.
	If they hit rocks on Africa, the plutonium gets out.
	And the next big, big concern is the flyby.
	So, no, these are not bank vaults whatsoever.
	Iridium is a very strong metal, of course, but we're talking here about a very, very strong likelihood of rupture in all these various cases.
	What NASA has going for it, I suppose, is the basic defense.
	The likelihood, the probability of a catastrophic accident dispersing this plutonium is very small.
	Do you argue with their stats?
	I mean, let us discuss, for example, the Titan IV launch history.
	Uh, there you can calculate, based on the number of launches, what the chances are that this one would blow up.
	Yes.
	And what are the chances?
	On all the Titan 4s we've launched, how many have blown up?
	Well, it's a little under... I mean, there's been a... There were Titan 3s and, you know, through all the... The Titan record is, oh, about 4%, 5% of failure.
	With chemically-fueled rockets, I mean, you could get into that kind of failure rate of a few percent.
	So, you know, we know there's a certain risk.
	Okay.
	On the flyby, though, I don't think we really... I mean, NASA is saying the likelihood of a flyby accident is one in a million.
	This is what they claim.
	You know, but they're going to be... They're going to aim this thing straight back, roughly, at Earth.
	I mean, when you're talking about the distances involved, coming within even 500 miles, the outside limit of Earth, is, I mean, just a hair miss.
	Well, I agree.
	I think this is kind of like, frankly, three stooges go to space.
	To aim essentially a gun containing plutonium at your head, figuring you're just going to miss it slightly.
	I just think it's nuts.
	And in terms of the one in a million, I mean, how do they know?
	In science, you know because you've gotten empirical evidence.
	You've done enough experiments.
	Okay, but when they're coming back, when they're going to use Earth's gravity as a slingshot to increase speed yet again and head out towards Saturn, they're going to be doing presumably mid-course maneuvers, burns, so that they come precisely at this 500 mile point Correct?
	Yes.
	We've had a number of space vehicles that have had burn problems, haven't we?
	Yes.
	In other words, where they do a burn and it lasts a second or two longer or all of a sudden valves open and get stuck open and they keep burning and they That happened to one of our spacecraft.
	I recall that it was going to Mars, I believe.
	Mars Observer?
	Yes.
	Like, goodbye, and nobody even knows to this day exactly what happened.
	Well, it went tumbling out of control, they think.
	Yes.
	Now, everything is dependent on those burns being accurate, because if they did a burn, and suddenly it was headed for Earth, and they couldn't do another burn to correct it, What would we do about that?
	I mean, she'd be coming in at 42,000 miles an hour with all this plutonium, and what steps could they take to stop it?
	Once it's, I mean, if it's coming in too low, they can try to do corrections, but I mean, accidents do happen.
	In fact, the current issue of Space News uh... talks about the uh... the current mars mission and
	that goes on about support the end of the editorial
	space exploration is inherently a risky business you know things go wrong as it did with the mars observer
	so things could go wrong on the cassini mission on that flyby they could easily go
	wrong alright i accept that but generally when we talk about that
	we're talking about the lives of astronauts or cosmonauts
	or even a possible explosion at the Cape at a launch.
	You know, these sorts of risks, in my thinking, remembrance, is what we're discussing.
	Things go wrong.
	I agree.
	It's not a perfect science.
	But here we're talking about not the lives of seven astronauts.
	We're talking about millions of people on Earth.
	Well, that's to me.
	I mean, we're not all volunteers.
	I give it to the astronauts.
	We're brave people.
	But here's the population of the Earth, and we shouldn't be anthropomorphic.
	It isn't just people.
	For example, here is a page from, again, I love documents because there you get often the unvarnished information.
	This is from the NASA Environmental Impact Statement, the Cassini page four hyphen.
	72.
	Range of decontamination methods.
	And they talk about if the plutonium comes down on natural vegetation.
	So they say, remove and dispose topsoil.
	Relocate animals.
	Now, how is NASA going to run around after the chipmunks and the raccoons and relocate them?
	Or here, if it's agriculture, and Florida, of course, with all those citrus groves around the launch site, has to worry.
	Demolish some or all structures.
	What?
	Demolish some or all structures.
	In New York?
	Or LA?
	around, destroy citrus and other perennial growing stocks.
	Or here, if the plutonium ended up coming down on Los Angeles, or here in New York,
	or Paris, or what have you, NASA says demolish some or all structures.
	What?
	Demolish some or all structures.
	In New York? Or L.A.?
	This is going to take quite a lot of work. Relocate affected population permanently.
	It's expensive with our tax money.
	And they're talking about relocating affected population permanently.
	I mean, the Cassini mission is to cost $3.4 billion.
	It's the single most expensive space shot ever.
	I mean, that's a lot of our tax money.
	What would it cost to relocate everybody in New York City?
	In one portion of the environmental impact statement, they try to play around with numbers.
	They talk about decontamination costs per acre, and this and that.
	They don't get into how much it's going to cost for the U-Haul vans and the moving exactly, but they talk about decontamination.
	I try to price it out, figure it out on the basis that they have millions per acre and so forth.
	I have a little calculator right under this desk and I try to use it.
	And there wasn't enough zeros on the calculator.
	I had to sit with a pencil, like, back in school.
	And it came to, I mean, this is NASA's own estimate of a worst-case scenario clean-up cost, ten trillion dollars.
	Ten trillion?
	Trillion dollars.
	Trillion dollars.
	But let's say the plutonium didn't spread around the entire footprint, which is, you know, most likely.
	Let's say one hundredth of the footprint.
	But then you're talking about a hundred billion dollars.
	I mean, you know, it's... Who's going to pay for this?
	And again, to me, it comes down to... Oh, I know who will pay for it.
	That part is not a mystery.
	We will pay for it.
	Money and lives!
	Oh, by the way, no matter where it comes down, whether it comes down here or in another foreign country, Paris, you mentioned, London, whatever, we, the American taxpayer, will pay for it.
	No doubt.
	Relocating.
	Now, if it comes down on London, we're really in trouble.
	Because we're going to end up with London relocating to somewhere here.
	The whole thing is... Look, is there another way to do it?
	You say that this mission is going to take how long?
	Four years?
	Ultimately, it's to reach Saturn in the year 2004, so it will be launched In October we're talking about a seven or eight year mission.
	Then we'll go around the moons, Titan and so forth.
	About an eight year mission.
	Eight year mission total.
	Is there another way we could be doing this?
	How much power is this thing generating?
	That's the key, I think, here in terms of the risk.
	It's not necessary to have this gargantuan risk at all.
	It's 745 watts.
	to be generated by the plutonium.
	I mean, that's like seven light bulbs.
	And in fact, high-efficiency solar cells could do the job if NASA would allow solar to be used on Cassini.
	All right, so why... Look, I note, for example, we're using solar panels on Mars.
	We use them in orbit very effectively, producing high amounts of Electricity, so then why not use them with Cassini?
	What's the problem?
	That's the central question of this whole thing.
	Because, in fact, the European Space Agency, back in 1994, with a company called Deutsche Aerospace, did a breakthrough on high-efficiency solar cells.
	In fact, I have their announcement right here.
	They talk about how these new high-efficiency cells, with the highest efficiency ever, Achieved in solar arrays.
	We'll replace plutonium-powered systems on deep space probes.
	ESA expects the new high-performance silicon cells could promptly be used in deep space missions.
	It goes on in 1995, a physicist from ESA said, give us a few years and a few dollars and we'd do solar for your Cassini mission.
	In fact, I was in Germany a few months ago and Gerhard Strobel of Deutsch Aerospace said that you couldn't do it immediately.
	You couldn't just slap on solar panels on the Cassini probe, but redesign the probe and we'd have a solar system ready.
	In fact, Strobel stressed that the European Space Agency will be sending up the Rosetta space probe beyond the orbit of Jupiter to rendezvous with a comet, and it's going to be equipped not with the plutonium system like Cassini has, So, I mean, the technology is here, and Saturn is further than Jupiter, and as Dr. Michio Kaku, professor of nuclear physics at the City University of New York says, if you couldn't get to the last mile to Saturn with the solar, because the sun becomes a little spot in the sky way out there,
	Some long-life fuel cells could take it on too.
	Is that what the problem is?
	In other words, the Sun is not of sufficient strength by the time you're out near Saturn?
	Oh, sure, but with these new solar cells, according to STROBO, the European Space Agency, well, for example, just looking at their announcement, spacecraft operating at a very large distance from the Sun experience a solar intensity which is only about 5% or less than near the Earth.
	But then it goes on that, however, These solar arrays, these new solar cells that have been developed, achieve a 25% efficiency.
	This is a breakthrough and so forth.
	So even at distances that years ago no one thought you could harvest solar power, you can't.
	The reason that it's not being done has nothing to do with the technology.
	Alright, well people don't understand necessarily what 745 watts is, so let me explain to you all.
	745 watts Is about half the amount of power used by my hair dryer.
	That's about right.
	Exactly.
	Yeah.
	So it's not a very great deal of power.
	And it is a very great deal of plutonium.
	Why is it necessary?
	I mean, I thought plutonium, for example, was very, very efficient.
	Why do you need 72.3 pounds, for heaven's sakes?
	That's an awful lot of plutonium.
	Well, the plutonium that is used in this space probe, and it has been used in some of the earlier shots, U.S.
	shots, and in fact has been used on satellites.
	Yup.
	Until, well, there was a big, hang on, we're not talking here chicken little if the sky can fall.
	In fact, in a way it has.
	In 1964, the SNAP-9A, which was a plutonium system on a U.S.
	satellite with 2.1 pounds of plutonium, fell from the sky.
	It disintegrated.
	The 2.1 pounds of plutonium spread all over the planet.
	Dr. John Gottman, I mentioned him before, University of California at Berkeley, has long connected the SNAP 9A accident with an increased level of lung cancer.
	Oh, let me tell you.
	I saw some very, very interesting cancer stats indicating that the amount of cancer for American men, since World War II, is up 300%.
	Now, I just cannot imagine why that would be.
	That's non-smoking related cancer, by the way.
	I'll tell you what, hold tight.
	We'll come back after the top of the hour and continue with this.
	72.3 pounds of plutonium oxide.
	We'll be back.
	You're listening to Arc Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 9th, 1997.
	AMC News Dispatch Theme Coast to Coast AMC News Dispatch Theme
	Coast to Coast AMC News Dispatch Theme Premier Radio Networks presents Arc Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight's program originally aired July 9, 1997.
	Good morning.
	I am Art Bell, and my guest is Carl Grossman.
	He, for 30 years, has specialized in investigative reporting on environmental and energy issues, for which he has received the George Polk Award, among many other honors.
	He is a full professor of journalism at the State University of New York College at Old Westbury, Where he is the coordinator of the College's Media and Communications Department.
	Now, on October 6th, an interesting date, Titan IV will lift off with, among other things, 72.3 pounds of plutonium oxide.
	I think it's 238, I wrote it down here.
	Really rough stuff, anyway.
	Yeah, 238.
	Plutonium oxide 238, which is about 280 times as radioactive as 239.
	You know, the stuff we use in Z-Bomb.
	Now, this Titan IV will launch a project called Cassini, which is due to go and explore the Saturn system.
	Not quite the way we're exploring Mars presently, But explore, orbit, take photographs, map it, do that sort of thing, so that we might learn more about ourselves.
	Now, NASA has always maintained there are risks in going to space.
	And there are.
	Generally, though, those discussions have been limited to the risks associated with the astronauts, brave astronauts, cosmonauts, and we have lost some.
	In this particular case, there are two problems.
	One, The Titan IV may, as it has before, explode on launch.
	That would be bad.
	Two, Cassini is due to come back to Earth at about 42,000 miles per hour and graze the atmosphere at anywhere from two to five hundred miles above Earth so that it might gain speed and then sort of relaunch itself towards Saturn.
	Now, should they miss By just a little bit, as this thing comes back toward Earth at 42,000 miles an hour.
	And should it re-enter, the implications indeed are dire, and we have been discussing that with Carl Grossman, and will again in a moment.
	Alright, this 72.3 pounds of plutonium is on board to supply a total of about 745 watts of power for the Cassini probe.
	And again, to put that in perspective for you, that is roughly half what my hair dryer uses, or yours.
	Not a lot of power.
	And it could be achieved not using all of this deadly plutonium, but instead, simply using solar power.
	It is available.
	It is uh... efficient enough to serve the Cassini probe according to Mr. Grossman but they're not going to do it and uh... the next question is why uh... Mr. Grossman welcome back to the program uh... why why why uh... will they since you know we we've had advances and solar would work why take this horrid risk well uh... that uh... again i think that the central question uh... just let me know that i'm not saying that
	As Dr. Strobel stressed, that you can put the solar panels immediately on Cassini as it now exists, but a few years of work and it could be flown safely.
	But they want to launch October 6th.
	They're pushing for, I mean, Saturn is going to be around, I bet, for a few more years.
	I bet.
	They could do this thing right and there would be no problem.
	And as to why not, I found four basic reasons.
	One, you have the pressure of the manufacturer of this device, and the company is called Lockheed Martin, and it's not exactly your mom-and-pop store.
	In fact, two years ago, I was out speaking on this issue in Colorado, and there was a little item, maybe other people didn't notice it, but I did, about how a little subcommittee of the House Appropriations Committee, led by Representative Jerry Lewis, had canceled the Cassini project because of cost.
	He's a conservative, kind of a Newt Gingrich follower.
	Yes.
	And just on the basis of cost, he said, I mean, this is billions of dollars.
	And I thought, well, that's the end of Cassini, and it's interesting how the end came over dollars, not safety.
	But the time I got back to New York, two days later, things had changed.
	I called the full House Appropriations Committee, asked for the staff people, the people who handle the reporters.
	And I said, well, what's happened now with Cassini?
	And the lapella said, I quote this in my book, The Wrong Stop, you wouldn't believe what happened.
	That subcommittee zeroed out Cassini and we landed on by Lockheed Martin.
	And boom, it was all back.
	So we know how the Congress of the United States seems to work.
	And the paperwork seems to be mostly green that propels the Congress.
	So you have Lockheed Martin.
	Prior to Lockheed Martin, incidentally, for decades, these RTGs, these plutonium systems, were made by General Electric.
	I don't know about them bringing good things to life, but they certainly have impacted very heavily on our political scene for many years, pushing what GE, Westinghouse, the Coke and Pepsi of nuclear power worldwide, they're very, very formidable corporations.
	Then you have the National Nuclear Laboratories, like Los Alamos and Oak Ridge and Brookhaven National Laboratory and so forth.
	They're all involved in the fabrication of these plutonium systems.
	And particularly in a post-Cold War era, they want to keep busy.
	I mean, they can't just be building nuclear weapons like they did before.
	So this other use, nuclear in space, represents things for those government bureaucrats and scientists.
	All right, well let me understand how you got to where you are with regard to the information you have.
	Now, Shirley, you did not get this from the PR guys at NASA?
	No, no.
	I've never had such trouble getting information as I've had on this story, which I've been on for over ten years.
	And a lot of what I've gotten through the years has to do with the Freedom of Information Act.
	I can give some background on that.
	I mean, I got into this issue and I had no suspicions about NASA.
	I mean, I saw Neil Armstrong on the moon.
	I mean, everybody was so proud.
	I kind of figured NASA was one of these exceptions to government agencies.
	Squeaky clean and efficient.
	Wow, was I wrong.
	But I had seen a little item in a Department of Energy newsletter, right back in 1985, about how two shuttles would be launched in 1986, one being the Challenger.
	And this was a nuclear shot to be the Challenger's next mission.
	In any case, in 1985, I saw this little item about how NASA planned to send up two plutonium fuel space probes on shuttles, two separate shots, And at the end of the article, they talked about how they had considered accidents that could occur on launch in the lower atmosphere, the upper atmosphere, and so forth and so on.
	I just filed, very simply, a Freedom of Information Act request with NASA, the Department of Energy, the five national nuclear laboratories involved in these two missions.
	And wow!
	For starters, they wouldn't give me anything.
	Without paying fees for the documents, they wouldn't grant a fee waiver, even though I'm a journalist and entitled.
	Finally, when I appealed that, then they said they just wouldn't give me anything because all that they had was pre-decisional.
	They hadn't kind of figured out the consequences yet, which turned out to be false.
	Pre-decisional?
	Pre-decisional.
	In fact, when I got the documents finally in late 1985, after applying a great deal of political pressure, I mean, I had to go to Senator D'Amato here in New York, Senator Moynihan and others to try to get these agencies to follow the law.
	And finally, in late 85, I got the documents and they said essentially that there could be a terrible accident if the plutonium on these two shots was dispersed.
	But the likelihood of a shuttle accident, I mean, this is what one of the documents said, It's highly unlikely because of the extreme reliability inherent in the shuttle.
	Was that before Challenger?
	Yeah, yeah.
	They put the odds of a shuttle accident in the paperwork that they finally sent me at 1 in 100,000.
	1 in 100,000?
	And then I really didn't know what to do with the story.
	I mean, here you could have a disaster, but the likelihood, NASA was saying, was infinitesimal, like they're saying now about Cassini shuttles.
	Likelihood of a catastrophe, of a major accident, one in a hundred thousand.
	The equivalent of nothing can go wrong.
	Yeah.
	And you don't want, as a journalist, to scare people or to raise an issue which isn't... I mean, I'm not technophobic.
	I have a Mazda Miata out here, and I have in front of me my computer.
	You were talking about loving your computer.
	I love mine.
	Well, I love it on some days.
	On some days, though, I can kick it.
	But my digital watch and my laptop, so I'm not technophobic.
	In any case, there I was in January, January 28th of 1986, to be exact, on my way to the State University of New York to teach my investigative reporting class when I hear on the car radio The Challenger had blown up, and I stopped the car in front of an appliance store along the Long Island Expressway.
	I live out of Long Island, and there's that horrific image of the Challenger blowing up, and all I was thinking then was, well, if it was the next mission, which was slated for May with 25 pounds of plutonium, it wouldn't be seven brave astronauts dead.
	Wherever that plutonium might have spread, I mean, pieces of Challenger ended up all over the In fact, just a few months ago, some pieces washed up still.
	You would have had many, many more people.
	Who would know?
	It depends on how that plutonium would be released as dust, or if the particles would stay together, and so forth.
	Then, from a pay phone, I called the Nation magazine and asked the folks at the Nation, did they know that the next Challenger mission was to be one of these plutonium space probe missions?
	And they didn't, and they asked me to help them put together a piece quick, and I did.
	And then I also called the government.
	The Department of Energy had been made the sort of point agency to deal with me, and I called a guy.
	I remember his name, Dan Butler.
	His name was Dan Butler.
	He was the person I was told to have my dealings with.
	And I said to Mr. Butler, I said, look, the chances, there wasn't one in 100,000, Mr. Butler.
	I mean, this is the 25th launch, and look what happened.
	And he just didn't kind of absorb that.
	I went on and I said, well, are you still going to do these plutonium shots?
	And he said, absolutely, absolutely.
	There might be a suspension or postponement in the shuttle schedule, but certainly we're going to do it.
	And we've done them before.
	Yeah, they did it before, but at that point they had done 22, and there was three mishaps.
	I mean, that I had picked up in the documents they had sent, including that one I had mentioned, that SNAP-9A satellite.
	Which came down, disintegrated, and the plutonium fell out all over the place.
	I seem to recall, wasn't there a Russian satellite that came down somewhere in Canada or Nova Scotia or somewhere?
	Oh, yes, yes.
	In fact, it isn't just the U.S.' 's space program which has had troubles with these nuclear devices.
	The Soviets, they've had 41 nuclear space shots.
	And what they do, most of the time, they don't want to use plutonium because they fear that if there would be a launch pad accident, the hot radioactive plutonium would be released.
	Right.
	So what they do is, most of the time, not all the time, for example, the Russian Mars space probe that fell from the sky back in November, November 16th of this past year.
	Yes.
	It fell on Chile and Bolivia.
	That contained a half a pound of plutonium.
	Yeah, there were a whole bunch of military folks swarming around down there.
	Well, what the Soviets and now Russia does mostly is to send up actual reactors, actual nuclear reactors, which they make go critical.
	In other words, the chain reaction only begins when they're up there.
	But the problem is, I mean, Newton's law of gravity is still operable.
	What goes up can easily come down.
	And the cosmos that you're speaking of is the cosmos 954.
	And in 1978, that fell over the Northwest Territories of Canada.
	They didn't know where it was going to fall.
	Ultimately, it fell over Canada and it splattered tens of thousands of square miles of the Northwest Territory with nuclear debris.
	I mean, 6 out of 41 is their record that mishaps with nuclear space shots.
	Ours is 3 now out of 26.
	out of twenty six uh... you know nowhere near a hundred thousand one
	uh... well they pick up these numbers basically I mean, they factor in their self-interest and they want to, you know... Alright, so if they tamper with numbers for their own self-interest, and most organizations do that, then let's again discuss the possibility of... I mean, Cassini slingshots back, comes within two to five hundred miles of Earth to gain acceleration to fire out towards Saturn.
	If it should miss by a little bit and re-enter our atmosphere, they have done... I mean, you're using their numbers with regard to the number of deaths that might occur, say if it came down in a metropolitan area like Los Angeles or New York or whatever.
	Are their numbers accurate there?
	No, it's actually pretty...
	Pretty devious what they've done.
	I hate to use that word, but I mean, I've had a long experience with these people, and the notion of... I mean, there was Neil Armstrong on the moon, for example, and he was an Eagle Scout.
	I was an Eagle Scout.
	I ultimately ended up interviewing the man, and I was so impressed, but I can't tell you I've been impressed by the other folks I've met from NASA.
	And in terms of a Cassini accident, what they're doing is averaging out the dose from that plutonium.
	all over the planet, not considering the fact that maybe it won't be the Northwest Territories
	like what happened with the Cosmos 758.
	It could be LA.
	It could be Madrid.
	It could be in New York.
	It could be a population center.
	So it could be much, much, much more serious.
	Here's something very interesting.
	Do you remember the one, again, we discussed it a few moments ago, that came down in Central America, South America, what was it, Chile?
	Yes, yes.
	Originally, they said that was going to come down in Western Australia, and that's exactly where they had forecasted.
	They were sure of it.
	Western Australia.
	As a matter of fact, when it re-entered, They said it has re-entered in Western Australia.
	One day later, we heard it was in Chile.
	Now that's not even close.
	You're playing like a game of billiard with the planet Earth when you throw these things up and they start coming to you.
	You don't know exactly what hole they'll end up in.
	In fact, the book The Wrong Stuff begins with President Clinton This is the first chapter, and I get into all the documentation I was able to gather, with President Clinton calling the Prime Minister of Australia, John Howard.
	I remember that.
	This is November 17th, and warning him, it turns out that Clinton was going to go to Australia the next day on a state visit, so Clinton had a Christmas Day, but warning him that his Russian Mars space probe, with a half a pound of plutonium, and it doesn't sound like much, you know, This plutonium-238, as I say, is 280 times more radioactive than 239.
	That's why they use it.
	It has a shorter half-life.
	Instead of 24,500 years, which is what 239 has, this stuff is 87.8.
	Because it has a shorter half-life, its decay rate is much more rapid.
	thousand five hundred years which is what two thirty nine this stuff is eighty seven point eight
	and uh...
	because there's a short a half-life it's decay rate that would mean that the decay rate is
	is much more rapid it's hot and what they do is they couple the heat in these radioisotope
	thermoelectric generators and produce electricity in that way
	So when you're talking about a half a pound, you're talking about the equivalent of, well, the arithmetic is pretty stark.
	You're talking about the equivalent of hundreds of, 140 pounds of plutonium-239.
	Though I should note, too, that in the plutonium oxide mix is a little bit of plutonium-239, 10% is plutonium-239, too.
	In any case, there was this thing coming down, and the U.S.
	Space Command, which is very involved in tracking space objects, advised Clinton that it looked like the thing was coming down on Australia.
	I remember that very specifically in Western Australia.
	Carl, hold on.
	We'll be right back to you.
	My guest is Carl Grossman.
	I'm Art Bell.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time.
	tonight featuring a replay of coast to coast am from july ninth nineteen ninety
	seven the
	the the
	Love is good, love can be strong.
	We gotta get right back to where we started from.
	Do you remember that day, that sunny day, when you first came my way?
	I said, no one can take your place.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 9th, 1997.
	Good morning.
	My guest is Carl Grossman.
	We're talking about the Cassini launch, which, by the way, is this coming October 6th.
	It is a date you're going to want to remember.
	Hopefully only for a short time.
	And then you're going to want to remember it because Cassini's coming back our way at about 42,000 miles an hour.
	It'll graze the atmosphere.
	It will do that to gain speed to launch itself out toward its final intended target, the Saturn system.
	And it's a great adventure, and indeed there are risks with the space program, but it seems to me the American public has a right to know That the risks they're talking about this time are not just to the astronauts, but to all of us.
	We'll get back to Mr. Grossman in a moment.
	By the way, Carl Grossman, my guest in the first two hours on
	Cassini, has a website and we have a link to it on ours.
	So, in addition to being able to see the live cams tonight, Everybody keeps writing to me and saying, how about putting a cam outside?
	Well, I'm thinking of doing that.
	I've got a number of cameras, and I could put one outside.
	I think I would have to bring it in.
	It's not weatherproof.
	But on a good night, I could take a camera outside and point it at the desert sky.
	I will have to experiment a little bit and see what I can do and see how well you would see something out there.
	That was a full moon, maybe.
	Even better, I could couple one to my telescope.
	Oh, boy.
	The quake apparently has been upgraded in Venezuela to a 6.7.
	Now, that would explain a lot of correctness.
	This is from Carol in Mesa.
	That is quite a hefty quake, she says, and it is.
	Remember when Sean David Morton said he gets headaches in his right eye before earthquakes this morning?
	I awoke with a pain in my right eye, an incredible pain, not like a headache, but something different.
	My first thought was, oh my God, we're going to be a very large earthquake today somewhere, and sure enough.
	A big mudslide in Kyushu, Japan.
	I believe they said there are several injured.
	Perhaps some dead from that.
	Yes, Art.
	I used to listen to you when you first started in Las Vegas.
	Yes, I enjoyed it so much.
	I'm an old lady now.
	It isn't even the 20th yet.
	That's right.
	Well, Esther the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Yes, Art.
	Yes.
	I used to listen to you when you first started in Las Vegas.
	Long time ago.
	Yes, I enjoyed it so much.
	And I'm an old lady now.
	I'm 87 years old.
	And I wanted to tell you a little story.
	It's just very short.
	Sure.
	You know when you were having everybody to go out and look or look up in the sky and think about the saucers coming down?
	Yes, twice.
	I did it twice.
	Yes, well this was the first time you did it.
	I have an atrium in my condominium and it's not covered, you know, but nothing can get in unless it falls in from the top.
	And so that night I was looking out the window and I was thinking about, you know, the saucers.
	Cooperating.
	And all at once some big, big black thing flew over.
	Yep.
	And it almost fell in and it was making a noise almost like air coming out of a balloon.
	And you know I thought, oh my God, it's a, what is it?
	The other thing that flies and bites and Draws the blood out.
	Chupacabra!
	Chupacabra!
	My, my.
	It was so funny.
	Well, there are a couple things, though, about what we did, thank you, that are not so funny.
	One is, as you point out, the first time we did this, I mean, everybody says it, everybody, that these creatures, if they exist, communicate telepathically.
	So I thought, what the heck?
	Have millions of people telepathically try and contact whoever they are and have them show themselves.
	The first time we did it, within two weeks, Phoenix.
	The second time we did it, within a few days, Las Vegas.
	So dare I do it again?
	Dare we do it again?
	I don't know.
	I'm not saying that we caused those massive sightings.
	But there is a lot of coincidence there, so I may pick a third time.
	I mean, the third time, they say, is the charm, right?
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	This is Patricia in Missoula, Montana.
	Hi there.
	I didn't hear the reverse speech program, but I've been hearing about it.
	I have two questions.
	Is it going to be repeated soon?
	Well, I've done any number of interviews with David Oates.
	The last one, I bet you I've done five or six at least.
	Well, I'm new with you, darling.
	Oh, I see.
	But here I am.
	Well, when you hear it, you will be amazed.
	I bet.
	I've been amazed by what little bits I've been hearing from people who did hear it.
	Second question is, how do you listen to it?
	How do you play a tape backwards?
	You've got to have a special recorder.
	Okay.
	To do that.
	And it actually does play the tape backwards.
	Or, short of that, if you have a computer, they have the ability to do that.
	Okay.
	I'll just have to go check out the stores.
	David Oates sells one at a very reasonable price, but I'll tell you what, hang out, listen to the next program we do, and then go from there.
	Alright, I will.
	Alright, thank you.
	You bet.
	That's Missoula, Montana.
	A River Runs Through It.
	I love that movie.
	Have you seen it?
	A River Runs Through It.
	What a great movie.
	Actually, not filmed in Missoula, but representing it was Missoula.
	But then again, Mars Attacks was supposed to be destroying Pahrump, my little town, and they did that in Arizona.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Howdy.
	Howdy.
	This is Chris from Salem, Oregon.
	Salem.
	Oh.
	Aren't you up near the crop circle?
	Yeah, that's why I called.
	I heard you mention that.
	Uh-huh.
	I went out there Sunday to take a look at it.
	Really?
	And what did you observe?
	Well, it was kind of hard to see.
	It's on a really slight incline.
	The easiest place to see it is right from the highway there.
	Actually, the easiest way to see a crop circle is from the air.
	Well, yeah.
	On the ground.
	Fortunately, I'm not a pilot.
	Right.
	I hear you.
	Make arrangements to have some aerial photographs taken.
	I haven't seen any of those yet, but the business she owns is about three blocks down the street from where I live.
	Well, they've got to get in there quickly because usually people go tromping in and ruin it.
	Right.
	They weren't letting people into the field when I went out there, which is perfectly understandable.
	But I'm trying to keep in touch with her.
	Wait for the pictures to come back.
	If you're in touch with her, have her contact me.
	I'm not sure if she's online or not or anything like that.
	All she needs is a telephone.
	Right.
	I was thinking about getting them emailed to you so you could put them on your site like you were mentioning before.
	Well, that's one thing to do, yes.
	But of course, if we could actually talk to her, it would be really neat.
	So, if you could get me, or maybe she's listening, and she'll fax me her number.
	Okay.
	All right?
	I don't have your fax number.
	Okay, it is.
	Are you ready?
	Yes.
	Area code, 702-727-8499.
	702-727-8499.
	702-727-8499.
	All right.
	Thank you very much.
	And there is a three-page limit on faxes.
	Anything more than three pages will be digested into memory and not printed out.
	So please do not fax more than three pages.
	And please, will somebody out there please stop sending me Sheldon Nidal's ground crew report every day?
	It's driving me nuts.
	I get at least five copies of it, three pages each, from all kinds of separate sources, and I wish it would stop.
	Oh, let it stop.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hi, Art.
	I have a little weird thing that happened to me last night, and I was looking for it in the paper today, because I went outside about 10.30 last night.
	Yes?
	The entire sky turned red.
	Where are you?
	I live a little north of Seattle.
	And the entire sky turned red?
	It was red.
	It flashed.
	And then our electricity flashed off.
	Really?
	And it came back on.
	And then the sky flashed red.
	I mean, it looked like a negative of the sky.
	It was so weird.
	And my whole body just got all like a goose bump, you know?
	Well, a lot of people should have seen it.
	That's what I thought.
	And then our electricity went off totally and then I went to the phone to call somebody and say, my gosh, and the phone was dead.
	We live in a beach area out on an Indian reservation and there are maybe 25 houses along the beach there and the entire beach was dark.
	All of the electricity went out and it's next to a pretty big sized city called Marysville.
	There wasn't anything in the paper and nobody said anything about it and I thought... Sounds to me like a quick dimensional door might have opened.
	What?
	A dimensional door.
	Dimensional door.
	That's right.
	Well... There must have been a gigantic electromagnetic flux that occurred instantaneously, zapping your phone and power.
	And everybody else in the whole area.
	I mean... You know what you want to watch for now?
	What?
	Strange creatures.
	Oh, come on!
	What do you think comes through dimensional doors, dear?
	Not baby carriages.
	Things with long teeth.
	So it was probably, you know, fireworks left over or lightning or something?
	Fireworks?
	You think fireworks shut off your phone and your power?
	But you're not serious about, like, things with long teeth, are you?
	What do you think?
	I don't think you are.
	Yes, I am.
	Oh.
	So, what do you think it really was?
	Are you listening carefully?
	I mean, can you hear anything rustling outside your house?
	So, isn't there someone in the Seattle area that takes care of... Yes, there is.
	His name is Peter Davenport.
	Oh, yeah.
	You talk about him sometimes.
	At the Seattle UFO Reporting Center.
	And maybe somebody reported something to him about it.
	Well, why don't you report it?
	I think I will.
	And then you'll find out if others did.
	That's why I was calling you, because I figured you could let me know about it.
	I could.
	It's in the phone directory up there.
	Oh, cool.
	All right?
	Hey.
	In the meantime, don't let something do a Tyson to you.
	Well, I feel well protected.
	Okay.
	And you have a great show, by the way.
	Well, it's different.
	Yeah, it is.
	We enjoy it a lot.
	All right.
	Thank you very much for the call, and have a good, safe morning.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Hi.
	Hi there.
	Turn your radio off, please.
	It's off.
	That's good.
	Hi.
	This is Dee Dee from St.
	Louis.
	Yes, Dee Dee.
	And I was listening to your show a few weeks ago, and you were talking about channeling.
	Channeling, yes.
	I didn't get to hear the show that my dad did with Lori Coy.
	Oh, yes.
	And how do you feel about her with her channeling?
	Well, I don't feel good about channeling, period.
	To answer your question, Lori Toy is a very, very interesting individual.
	There are other people who have received information by channels, and I don't discredit it.
	You know, I really don't, altogether.
	I simply... I've said this on the air a million times, and I'll say it again.
	There's too much room for fraud.
	Yeah.
	That's the problem that I have with it.
	Well, we've got a lot of their books and I'm waiting right now for some of her channeling cassettes.
	I just was... I don't want to... I'd really like to hear exactly what is said during these and I was just interested in how you felt about her since you had her on.
	Well, I have all kinds of people on.
	I like Lori Toy actually a lot.
	But I mean, I could be a channeler.
	I could do it.
	I could convince you.
	I could go into a trance.
	I could become the ancient Arcturus.
	And the ancient Arcturus could forecast anything you want.
	Stock market, whatever you want.
	Yeah.
	Well, I just, like I said, I was just wondering how you felt about her, and I just really like your show, and thanks very much.
	Okay, take care.
	Yeah, Laurie Toy is a very, very, very interesting individual, and I'm not Down on all channeling.
	I'm totally unable to discern the real from the fraudulent, and I think there is more fraudulent than there is real.
	On my international line, you are on the air.
	Good morning.
	Good morning, Art.
	My name is Scott, and I'm calling from the southwestern British Columbia area.
	All right.
	I'm calling last week about the space program.
	I'm calling this week about the space program.
	Okay.
	I really don't consider the risk of re-entry on the slingshot to be probable in the slightest.
	They are able to calculate these things out within a matter of a handful of miles from hundreds of millions of miles away.
	That's assuming the burns are correct and valves don't get stuck.
	If the burns are incorrect, there is a higher likelihood of it being even further away because a simple A simple couple pounds of thrust can throw the thing
	literally hundreds of thousands of miles out of whack.
	So it's more likely to miss Earth than to hit Earth if there's improper thrust.
	Well, look, the only argument that I think is valid here is that NASA, I think, has a responsibility to tell everybody
	what the actual risks are.
	There, I agree with you.
	And here's a point of task I want to take.
	And by the way, may I ask you a question?
	Yes.
	Does Canada have a space program?
	Oh, yes.
	As a matter of fact, every time the shuttle puts something out, that arm has got a big Canada decal on it.
	That was made, I believe, by Bombardier in Montreal.
	Well, yeah, but what I mean is, do you launch any vehicles yourself?
	We do it through, no, not in Canada.
	We do it in association with ESA and with NASA.
	We have, you know, Cady and Astronauts, Roberta Bondar, Mark Garneau, etc.
	And actually, we're part of the Pathfinder.
	The modems that actually transmit the data from Sojourner to Pathfinder were built in Canada.
	They had trouble with those modems?
	Not today.
	Well, I don't know anything about them other than that they're a configurated Motorola, Canada, whatever.
	Okay, what I wanted to take the task with you about was the attitude, your discussion About putting plutonium.
	Make it sound like the American people have a right to know.
	What happened to the rest of the world?
	You know, that's what... No, no, no.
	We said that.
	We said that.
	You know, we talk about Paris and London and it can come down anywhere.
	But it's still a parochial American attitude.
	Well, the point is, if it came down in Australia, you can bet your bottom dollar, American dollar that is, that the American taxpayer would be paying to clean it up.
	Oh, well, I doubt it, because I tell ya, we didn't get any money from the Russians when that Cosmos 931 or whatever crashed up Northwest Territories.
	And, you know, I was a little kid when that happened.
	And I can tell ya, I've got two relatives that have died in the last few years from cancer.
	And, you know, it's very suspicious.
	I hear all these things about increased cancer rates and baby boomers.
	I wonder why in British Columbia, of all places, we don't have a lot of heavy industry.
	Most of our industry is natural resource based, not using a lot of chemicals, like forestry for example.
	Why do we have such an elevated incidence of cancer of the environmental type?
	That's what's bothered me.
	Plutonium carries on the wind quite far, especially if it's vaporized.
	It goes around the world in a matter of, you know, a few hours on the upper elevation wind.
	Can you imagine 70 plus pounds of plutonium scorching back into the atmosphere?
	That's unimaginable.
	Well, I'll have my fingers crossed along with you on that date for launch.
	October 6th.
	Yes, indeed.
	All right.
	Thank you very much.
	You're welcome.
	Take care.
	From British Columbia.
	Again, our international line, if you would like to call us, toll free from anywhere in the world, is 800-893-0903.
	That's 800-893-0903.
	is eight hundred eight nine three
	zero nine zero three that's eight hundred eight nine three
	zero nine zero three won't cost you a penny or a shilling
	art bill somewhere in time on premier radio networks tonight on on core presentation of coast to coast a m from
	july ninth nineteen ninety seven
	the the
	the Bye.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 9th, 1997.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 9th, 1997.
	Well, good morning everybody.
	Those of you who have access to the internet might go up there and take a look.
	We've got the webcam back on today.
	I had a big fight with my computer yesterday, and I had, you know, parts all over the room.
	It was messy, so I was embarrassed I didn't turn it on.
	It's back on today, and my computer is fixed, and I'm happy about that.
	Daryl says, Hey Art, I like that T-shirt.
	It's the one I got in Stockholm, Sweden.
	He says an aura of Abba, so I'm playing Abba in honor of that.
	Have the studio cam images over my shoulder on a 70-inch Mitsubishi.
	Another web TV at our home here in Los Angeles.
	And I have to tell you, you fill the room.
	70-inch Mitsubishi.
	That must be something.
	All right.
	We'll get back to what we're doing here in a moment, and what we're doing now, coming up on, is Open Lines, and I'll update you on a little bit of what's going on, and we will launch.
	The last two hours consumed by Carl Grossman telling us about Cassini, 72.3 pounds of plutonium to go up on a Titan IV, October 6th.
	It'll head towards Saturn, but not before it comes back to Earth in a slingshot effort To increase its speed, it will come toward us at 42,000 miles per hour, and will graze Earth at anywhere from two to five hundred miles, they hope.
	Should it re-enter, and should it come down in a populated area, NASA has plans to relocate and, for example, LA or New York, all the citizens of these cities.
	Plans the American people know nothing about.
	And I, you know, I really don't have a problem with our space program.
	I'm a big supporter.
	But I do think the people have a right to know what the risks are.
	Now, NASA has always said there are risks associated with our space effort.
	And I have always generally assumed those to be, for the most part, to the astronauts, very brave, who go up in these vehicles.
	But if there is a risk, a substantial risk, Or even a reasonably sizable risk.
	After all, NASA said the chances of a shuttle exploding were 1 in 100,000.
	And of course, it turned out to be not quite that.
	And we've had Titan IVs that have gone up like Roman candles as well.
	So, I'm not saying that we shouldn't do it.
	I'm not even sure about... We talked with Mr. Grossman about solar power.
	The advisability of using that, whether we can or we cannot.
	I'm not enough of a scientist to know that.
	But what I do think is that we have a right to know what the risks are.
	And apparently the only way we can find out what they are is to do what Mr. Grossman has done.
	He's an award-winning journalist and he's pried that information from NASA through the Freedom of Information request route.
	And it just seems to me that NASA should be more open and should at least tell us what we're facing.
	We have a right to know.
	so that's why he was on the air looking around at what's going on as you know tyson uh...
	here in nevada has been banned
	No more boxing for Mr. Tyson.
	And they have fined him $3,000,000.
	That is a record fine, by the way.
	Now, I don't know how much that hurts because it amounts to only 10% of the $30,000,000 purse from the fight.
	So, in other words, he's left with $27,000,000, not a bad payday.
	Huh?
	he's left with twenty seven million dollars not a bad payday you'll fight again
	you'll be able to appeal every year and uh... if they ever let him out of the
	country single box in south africa something Thank you for watching.
	We've got a new rating system for TV shows.
	It'll take effect October 1st.
	And it adds, let's see, the letter S for sex, L for language, V for violence, and D for suggestive dialogue.
	Suggested, well, they couldn't use the S for it.
	They already had to use that for sex, so they had to use dialogue.
	So, S-L-V-D will be the new rating system.
	And, no doubt, that's how most of our younger people will decide what they're going to watch.
	In that order.
	No, maybe not that order.
	If it has an S, that makes it very appealing.
	If it has a V for violence, it's very appealing.
	An L for language, helps out.
	And a D for suggestive dialogue, might as well throw that one in too.
	So if you get an SLVD, you've really got something you want to watch.
	Don't you remember when you were a kid?
	That's how it works.
	SLVD, oh my god, run the tape machine on that one.
	Mr. Clinton's approval rating, never higher, 64%, mostly due to the good economy.
	It is good.
	Market takes 100-point jumps daily, up and down, but more up than down.
	The Mars rover continues its work.
	I find it astounding there will be a news conference at 12.30 Pacific Time later today, and I'm looking forward to that.
	We'll see What new rockets?
	It's kind of saddling up to another rock right now.
	They're naming these rocks.
	Casper and Scooby-Doo are to be the next rocks that it will look at following the examination of our friend Barnacle Bill.
	An earthquake in Venezuela has killed 28... 5.5 but still killed 28 people including Students trapped inside a collapsed school building and injuring 150 others.
	It is the country's worst earthquake in 30 years.
	Just 5.5.
	But again, it's the type of quake.
	Nobody knows what dangers await nearest cosmonauts when they open the hatch to the space station's depressurized lab.
	Floating glass shards.
	Now that's a bad, bad deal.
	Uh, from broken bottles.
	Can you imagine going in in a space suit and facing the possibility of floating glass shards?
	Globules of blood and urine from popped vials.
	Toxic spills from ruined experiments and burst pipes.
	They could be opening an orbital Pandora's box.
	As a result, NASA is scrambling to put together a what-if-worst-case list in preparation for the repair job later in the month.
	Staying with space, check this out.
	It's from Donald Keough.
	There is a very disturbing possibility underway right now, if any of the robot reports were correct.
	Witnesses may have seen a special breed of space explorers Similar to the fearsome cyborg, which NASA is considering for long voyages.
	Cyborg, cybernetic organism, is the goal of a program under NASA, under NASA contract now.
	Check this out, folks.
	Using chemical mind changers and surgery, some future astronauts would be transformed into semi-robots.
	But the plan is strongly opposed by men in medicine and some scientists, including Dr. Toby Friedman of the North American Aviation Organization.
	This surgical tampering, said Dr. Friedman, would produce a weird being who accomplishes his space mission by trading, get this, trading most of his physiological systems for electronic ones, whose mouth is sealed, lungs collapsed, Body wastes recycled through himself, neural pathways partly severed, and all his emotional feelings dissected out.
	He would be so fantastically changed, he could never rejoin the human race.
	Such closed-cycle astronauts would be a mating of man with machine.
	Artificial units would replace their hearts and most other main organs, They would need no food, no water.
	They would have built-in energy suppliers.
	Eventually, even their brains might be replaced.
	Cyborg, the emotionless semi-robot, would be used on long journeys, which could break down a normal astronaut.
	There is no question that it can be done by us or an alien race.
	So, Would you go for that?
	You still want to go on a long trip?
	A Staten woman, this is the Salem area, says she has found a double crop circle in a wheat field near Highway 22.
	Mary Ann Koch says the formation is about 50 to 60 feet across and is located in a field about a hundred yards northeast of the Silver Creek Falls exit.
	She says she's fascinated by crop circles, so she contacted the media in order to document this one.
	And when we get a photograph of it, you know we will get it to you.
	So there you have it.
	Just a few little tidbits.
	I'm going to open the lines now.
	We are not going to screen calls.
	We will talk of anything you wish to talk about.
	So allow the trouble to begin.
	Wildcard line, you're on air.
	Hi.
	I second that what the guy said about the Colonel Corso tape.
	I recorded it and I'm sending it to a friend of mine in South Carolina, Neil, who is a boyhood chum.
	After 35 years, I was able to locate through the person locator link off of Michael Lindemann's website.
	We used to go around blowing up stuff, kind of like the way you did as a kid.
	Politically incorrect now.
	Oh yeah, I know.
	It's great.
	I love it.
	And he wanted to know all about you and your show, because he works days.
	So I've been sending him tapes, and he's really interested in it.
	But Neil was kind of like the mad scientist on the block.
	Where is he exactly in South Carolina?
	He's in North Augusta, South Carolina.
	He could hear us.
	Yeah, I sent him a list of the stations.
	WBT Charlotte must go slamming down there.
	Charlotte?
	Yeah, sure.
	Yeah, we did a lot of neat stuff.
	He's quite a guy.
	You have another convert.
	I'm really thrilled with the way the audience is growing and the stations and everything.
	I've been listening ever since you came on KVI.
	The shows keep getting better and better.
	Well, stranger and stranger.
	Yeah.
	I know.
	It's getting exciting.
	All right, my friend.
	I'll see you.
	See you later.
	Thank you very much.
	Yep.
	Vampires.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Well, hello.
	Are Milwaukee calling?
	Yes, sir.
	I was just calling with reference to what these people see in the trio of satellites.
	Yes.
	They are called the White Cloud Military Cluster.
	The Air Force, I believe, put them up there.
	Really?
	Yes.
	Apparently, they have the ability to change their direction also.
	I don't know if you have any contact with the Air Force or anything, but it would be interesting to find out more about them, what they're doing with them.
	Well, I know that spies, are they spy satellites?
	They may be.
	I don't know what else the Air Force will be doing if they're doing some kind of 3D imaging or something like that.
	Yeah, you could be exactly right.
	And, you know, spy satellites are designed to be able to be moved around in orbit so they can look at what they want.
	Yeah, I seen them last year during the meteor shower.
	And the next month in Astronomy Magazine, I've seen an article about them.
	So that's what they are, the white cloud satellites put up there by the Air Force, I believe.
	I'm sure there's a whole bunch of stuff buzzing around Earth that we really don't know about.
	Oh yeah, I'm sure there is too.
	You have a good day, and I just thought I'd let everyone know that.
	Thank you.
	For example, I know there is a treaty that says we would not have nuclear weapons in space.
	But I would be willing to lay down a lot of money, and it would be a safe bet, because we can't prove it.
	But I would bet you a lot of money that we have nuclear weapons in space now.
	And I think I might even bet more money that the Russians also do.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Oh, hello, Art.
	I just got a quick question for you.
	All right.
	Where are you?
	I'm out in Wisconsin.
	Yes, sir.
	Scott, I'm just wondering what CBC stands for.
	Chancellor Broadcasting.
	Chancellor Broadcasting.
	Okay, that's what I wanted to know.
	Okay.
	Thanks a lot.
	Oh, you're welcome.
	That was easy.
	Gee, if they were all that easy.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning, Art, Tim, and Denver.
	Hello, Tim.
	I've got some Art Belchat Club news.
	Okay.
	First of all, we have sold out our Los Angeles chapter's first meeting with David John Oates.
	They have no more room.
	Really?
	So all tickets are taken for that.
	However, we are proud to announce that we've got the Phoenix chapter open.
	Both of the coordinators will be at the meeting next Monday night with Richard Hoagland, and they'll have information to pass out to folks about the Phoenix chapter.
	Maybe I'm missing something here, Tim, but I just sworn I got a fax earlier today saying they were all shutting down.
	No.
	No, not at all.
	I didn't get that fax?
	No.
	No kidding?
	No.
	I swear I have it.
	Okay.
	Sorry.
	Sorry about that.
	I could read it.
	That's okay.
	That's fine.
	Did you send that?
	I sent a fax, but I'm not sure that that's the proper one that you should have.
	Who'd you send it to?
	Well, I sent several of them out, Art.
	But I don't believe that's the right one.
	We're real happy to announce the Phoenix chapter and also we've got a fax from a gentleman in England who wants to start a club.
	England?
	England.
	In Mitcham, Surrey, England.
	So we're truly going international real soon?
	I would presume that the way they are able to get the show over there is on the internet.
	Right, right.
	But there's quite a following from what I hear in the London area.
	I've been getting a lot of email and a lot of messages from England.
	And we are trying, we are talking to some English networks about getting on the air over there.
	That's in the works.
	It's one of those things we're trying to get done in the middle of doing a million other things.
	Right.
	And, of course, we have a live toll-free line for them, so it would really be an adventure in radio, wouldn't it, to get on the air in Britain?
	Oh, it would be wonderful.
	Wonderful.
	Especially if it was beside something other than the Internet.
	But anyway, I want to remind folks we've got chapters in Phoenix, Portland, Houston, Santa Fe, Oakland, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Sarasota, San Antonio, Austin, and in Denver.
	Eleven total, with about three or four more on the way very soon.
	That's great.
	And if I may, I can give out the 800 number?
	Yes, you may.
	Okay.
	1-800-881-4515.
	And that's for our Bell Chat Club telephone directory line.
	And you can get the phone numbers for each individual chapter in your area and give them a call and find out what's happening in your area.
	All right, Tim.
	Thank you.
	Take care.
	Wow.
	In Britain, huh?
	That'd be so cool.
	I'd love to be on the air in Britain, and we are working on it.
	Now, now that I'm thinking international, let me give out the international number, something I never do.
	Because, you know, I have this little phone number bumper, and I should be giving it out, but I don't.
	So look, if you're in a foreign country, England, New Zealand, Australia, I'm thinking mainly of English-speaking countries here, but anywhere else in Europe, Asia, South America, wherever, you can call us toll-free.
	Here's the deal.
	Our toll-free international number is what you do is get hold of the AT&T operator.
	in your area.
	Call and ask to speak to the AT&T operator.
	When you get her, ask her to call in the US toll-free 800-893-0903.
	We will pay for the call from anywhere in the world.
	0903. We will pay for the call from anywhere in the world.
	The number again is 800-893-0903.
	Now there is another way to do it.
	If you have the AT&T USA Direct Country Code, you can dial that, and then simply dial 800-893-0903.
	It's a lot of fun to hear from the people listening on AudioNet in all of these far-flung places.
	And I'll tell you, the new AudioNet program, I don't know if any of you with computers have downloaded it, But the 4.0 version, and then they've got one with streaming video as well, the 4.0 version is absolutely stupendous.
	I mean, it really does give pretty decent audio.
	So I would imagine more and more people worldwide are beginning to glom on to real audio and more computers.
	So, I don't care.
	China?
	Japan?
	Anywhere in Europe?
	Anywhere in the world, really, outside the USA and Canada, the number is 800-893-0903.
	I'm Art Bell.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 9th, 1997.
	Thank you for watching.
	I'm your host, Joe Sopcich.
	And I'm your host, Joe Sopcich.
	And I'm your host, Joe Sopcich.
	Thank you for watching.
	Tonight's program originally aired July 9th, 1997.
	From Keith, again in Magnetic Volcano, the top 10 reasons to launch Cassini.
	10.
	To test the reliability of the Titan IV.
	9.
	NASA deep space tracking job security.
	8.
	Get rid of our plutonium stockpiles. 7.
	To see if the emergency broadcast systems actually will work.
	Six.
	Dan Goldman wants to see the old... What is this?
	Oh, I see.
	The old archive duck and cover public information films again.
	Five.
	Good science.
	Four.
	Keeps NASA in the news.
	Three.
	More food for arts show.
	to urban renewal and the number one reason to launch cusine create more
	construction jobs nonwithstanding demolition jobs by the way i'll call grossman my guest in the first two
	hours on cusine Has a website, and we have a link to it on ours.
	So in addition to being able to see the live cams tonight, everybody keeps writing to me and saying, how about putting a cam outside?
	Well, I'm thinking of doing that.
	I've got a number of cameras, and I could put one outside.
	I think I would have to bring it in.
	It's not weatherproof.
	But on a good night, I could take a camera outside and point it at the desert sky.
	I will have to experiment a little bit.
	And see what I can do.
	And see how well you would see something out there.
	That was a full moon, maybe.
	Even better, I could couple one to my telescope.
	Oh boy.
	The quake apparently has been upgraded in Venezuela to a 6.7.
	Now that would explain a lot of correctness.
	This is from Carol in Mesa.
	That is quite a hefty quake.
	She says, and it is.
	Remember when Sean David Morton said he gets headaches in his right eye before earthquakes this morning?
	I awoke with a pain in my right eye, an incredible pain, not like a headache, but something different.
	My first thought was, oh my God, we're going to be a very large earthquake today somewhere, and sure enough.
	A big mudslide in Kyushu, Japan.
	I believe they said there are several injured.
	Perhaps I'm dead from that.
	Kyushu, of course, is a geologically active area.
	It should be an interesting month this month, and it isn't even the 20th yet.
	That's right.
	Well, to the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Yes, I am.
	Yes.
	I used to listen to you when you first started in Las Vegas.
	Long time ago.
	Yes, I enjoyed it so much and I'm an old lady now.
	I'm 87 years old.
	And I wanted to tell you a little story.
	It's just very short.
	Sure.
	You know when you were having everybody to go out and look or look up in the sky and think about the saucers coming down?
	Yes, twice.
	I did it twice.
	Yes, well this was the first time you did it.
	I have an atrium in my condominium and it's not covered, you know, but nothing can get in unless it falls in from the top.
	And so that night I was looking out the window and I was thinking about, you know, the saucers and all at once some big, big black thing flew over and it almost fell in and it was making a noise almost like air coming out of a balloon.
	And you know, I thought, oh my God, what is it?
	The other thing that flies and bites and draws the blood out?
	Chupacabra!
	Chupacabra!
	My, my.
	It was so funny.
	Well, there are a couple things, though, about what we did, thank you, that are not so funny.
	One is, as you point out, the first time we did this... I mean, everybody says it.
	Everybody.
	That these creatures, if they exist, communicate telepathically.
	So I thought, what the heck?
	Have millions of people telepathically try and contact whoever they are and have them show themselves.
	The first time we did it, within two weeks, Phoenix.
	The second time we did it, within a few days, Las Vegas.
	So dare I do it again?
	Dare we do it again?
	I don't know.
	I'm not saying that we caused those massive sightings, but there is a lot of coincidence there.
	So I may pick a third time.
	I mean, the third time, they say, is the charm, right?
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	I didn't hear the reverse speech program, but I've been hearing about it.
	I have two questions.
	Is it going to be repeated soon?
	Well, I've done any number of interviews with David Oates.
	I bet you I've done five or six at least.
	Well, I'm new with you, darling.
	Oh, I see.
	But here I am.
	Well, when you hear it, you will be amazed.
	I bet.
	I've been amazed by what little bits I've been hearing from people who did hear it.
	Second question is, how do you listen to it?
	How do you play a tape backwards?
	You've got to have a special recorder to do that, and it actually does play the tape backwards.
	Or, short of that, if you have a computer, they have the ability to do that.
	I'll just have to go check out the stores.
	David Oates sells one at a very reasonable price, but I'll tell you what, hang out, listen to the next program we do, and then go from there.
	All right, I will.
	All right, thank you.
	You bet.
	That's Missoula, Montana.
	A river runs through it.
	I love that movie.
	Have you seen it?
	A river runs through it.
	What a great movie.
	Actually, not filmed in Missoula, but representing it was Missoula, but then again, Mars Attacks was supposed to be destroying Pahrump, my little town, and they did that in Arizona.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Howdy.
	Howdy.
	This is Chris from Salem, Oregon.
	Salem?
	Oh.
	Aren't you up near the crop circle?
	Yeah, that's what I called.
	I heard you mention that.
	Uh-huh.
	I went out there Sunday to take a look at it.
	Really?
	And what did you observe?
	Well, it was kind of hard to see.
	It's on a really Slight incline.
	The easiest place to see it is right from the highway there.
	Actually the easiest way to see a crop circle is from the air.
	Well, yeah.
	On the ground.
	I'm not a pilot.
	Right, I hear you.
	She was going to make arrangements to have some aerial photographs taken.
	I haven't seen any of those yet, but the business she owns is about three blocks down the street
	Well, they've got to get in there quickly, because usually people go tromping in and ruin it.
	Right.
	They weren't letting people into the field when I went out there, which is perfectly understandable.
	Yes.
	But I'm trying to keep in touch with her and waiting for the pictures to come back.
	Well, look, if you're in touch with her, have her contact me.
	I'm not sure if she's online or not or anything like that.
	All she needs is a telephone.
	Right.
	I was thinking about getting them emailed to you so you could put them on your site like you were mentioning before.
	Well, that's one thing to do, yes.
	But of course if we could actually talk to her it would be really neat.
	So if you could get me or Maybe she's listening and she'll fax me her number.
	OK.
	All right?
	I don't have your fax number.
	OK, it is.
	Are you ready?
	Yes.
	Area code 702-727-8499.
	702-727-8499.
	Right.
	Got it.
	All right, thank you very much.
	seven oh two seven two seven eight four nine nine got it alright thank you very much and uh... there is a
	three page limit on faxes anything more than three pages will be digested into memory and not printed out so please
	do not fax more than three pages And please, will somebody out there please stop sending me Sheldon Nidal's ground crew report every day.
	It's driving me nuts.
	I get at least five copies of it, three pages each, from all kinds of separate sources.
	And I wish it would stop.
	Oh, let it stop.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hi, Art.
	I have a little weird thing that happened to me last night, and I was looking for it in the paper today, because I went outside about 10.30 last night.
	Yes?
	The entire sky turned red.
	Where are you?
	I live a little north of Seattle.
	And the entire sky turned red?
	It was red.
	It flashed.
	and then our electricity flashed off.
	Really?
	And it came back on.
	And then the sky flashed red.
	I mean, it looked like a negative of the sky.
	It was so weird.
	And my whole body just got all like a goose bump, you know?
	Well, a lot of people should have seen it.
	That's what I thought.
	And then our electricity went off totally.
	And then I went to the phone to call somebody and say, my gosh.
	And the phone was dead.
	And we live in a beach area out on an Indian reservation and there are maybe 25 houses along the beach there.
	And the entire beach was dark.
	So all of the electricity went out and it's next to a pretty big-sized city called Marysville.
	And, I mean, there wasn't anything in the paper and nobody said anything about it and I thought... Sounds to me like a quick dimensional door might have opened.
	What?
	A dimensional door.
	Dimensional door.
	That's right.
	Well... There must have been a gigantic electromagnetic flux that occurred instantaneously, zapping your phone and power.
	And everybody else in the whole area.
	I mean... You know what you want to watch for now?
	What?
	Strange creatures.
	Oh, come on!
	What do you think comes through dimensional doors, dear?
	Not baby carriages.
	Things with long teeth.
	So it was probably, you know, fireworks left over or lightning or something?
	Fireworks?
	You think fireworks shut off your phone and your power?
	But you're not serious about, like, things with long teeth, are you?
	What do you think?
	I don't think you are.
	Yes, I am.
	Oh.
	So, what do you think it really was?
	Are you listening carefully?
	I mean, can you hear anything rustling outside your house?
	So, isn't there someone in the Seattle area that takes care of... Yes, there is.
	His name is Peter Davenport.
	Oh, yeah.
	You talk about him sometimes.
	At the Seattle UFO Reporting Center.
	And maybe somebody reported something to him about it.
	Well, why don't you report it?
	I think I will.
	And then you'll find out if others did.
	That's why I was calling you, because I figured you could let me know about it.
	I could.
	It's in the phone directory up there.
	Oh, cool.
	All right?
	Hey.
	In the meantime, don't let something do a Tyson to you.
	Well, I feel well protected.
	Okay.
	And you have a great show, by the way.
	Well, it's different.
	Yeah, it is.
	We enjoy it a lot.
	All right.
	Thank you very much for the call, and have a good, safe morning.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Hi.
	Hi there.
	Turn your radio off, please.
	It's off.
	That's good.
	Hi.
	This is Dee Dee from St.
	Louis.
	Yes, Dee Dee.
	And I was listening to your show a few weeks ago, and you were talking about channeling.
	Channeling, yes.
	I didn't get to hear the show that my dad did with Lori Coy.
	Oh, yes.
	And how do you feel about her with her channeling?
	Well, I don't feel good about channeling, period.
	To answer your question, Lori Toy is a very, very interesting individual.
	There are other people who have received information by channels, and I don't discredit it.
	You know, I really don't, altogether.
	I simply... I've said this on the air a million times, and I'll say it again.
	There's too much room for fraud.
	Yeah.
	That's the problem that I have with it.
	Well, we've got a lot of their books and I'm waiting right now for some of her channeling cassettes.
	I would really like to hear exactly what is said during these.
	I was just interested in how you felt about her since you had her on.
	Well, I have all kinds of people on.
	I like Lori Toy actually a lot.
	But I mean, I could be a channeler.
	I could do it.
	I could convince you.
	I could go into a trance.
	I could become the ancient Arcturus.
	The ancient Arcturus could forecast anything you want.
	Stock market, whatever you want.
	Yeah, well, I just, like I said, I was just wondering how you felt about her, and I just want to let you know I really like your show, and thanks very much.
	Okay, take care.
	Yeah, Laurie Toy is a very, very, very interesting individual, and I'm not Down on all channeling.
	I'm totally unable to discern the real from the fraudulent.
	And I think there is more fraudulent than there is real.
	On my international line, you are on the air.
	Good morning.
	Good morning, Art.
	My name is Scott, and I'm calling from the southwestern British Columbia area.
	All right.
	I'm calling last week about the space program.
	I'm calling this week about the space program.
	Okay.
	I really don't consider the risk of re-entry on the slingshot to be probable in the slightest.
	They are able to calculate these things out within a matter of a handful of miles from hundreds of millions of miles away.
	That's assuming the burns are correct and valves don't get stuck.
	If the burns are incorrect, there is a higher likelihood of it being even further away because a simple A simple couple pounds of thrust can throw the thing
	literally hundreds of thousands of miles out of whack.
	So it's more likely to miss Earth than to hit Earth if there's improper thrust.
	Well, look, the only argument that I think is valid here is that NASA, I think, has a
	responsibility to tell everybody what the actual risks are.
	There, I agree with you.
	And here's the point of task I want to take.
	And by the way, may I ask you a question?
	Yes.
	Does Canada have a space program?
	Oh, yes, in fact, matter of fact, every time the shuttle puts something out, that arm has got a big Canada decal on it.
	That was made, I believe, by Bombardier in Montreal.
	Well, yeah, but what I mean is, do you launch any vehicles yourself?
	Um, we do it through, no, not in Canada.
	We do it in association with ESA and with NASA.
	Okay.
	We have, you know, Canadian astronauts, Roberta Bondar, Mark Garneau, etc.
	Sure.
	And actually we're part of the The Pathfinder, the modems that actually transmit the data from the Pathfinder, from Sojourner to Pathfinder, were built in Canada.
	They had trouble with those modems?
	Not today.
	Well, I don't know anything about them other than that it's a configurated Motorola, Canada, whatever.
	Okay, what I wanted to take the task with you about was the attitude of your discussion About putting plutonium, making it sound like the American people have a right to know.
	What happened to the rest of the world?
	You know, that's what... No, no, no.
	We said that.
	We said that.
	You know, we talk about Paris and London and it can come down anywhere.
	Clean it up.
	But it's still a parochial American attitude.
	Well, the point is, if it came down in Australia, you can bet your bottom dollar, American dollar that is, that the American taxpayer would be paying to clean it up.
	Oh, well, I doubt it, because I tell you, we didn't get any money from the Russians when the Cosmos 931 or whatever crashed up Northwest Territories.
	And, you know, I was a little kid when that happened.
	And I can tell you, I've got two relatives who have died in the last two years from cancer.
	And, you know, it's very suspicious.
	I hear all these things about increased cancer rates and baby boomers.
	I wonder why in British Columbia, of all places, we don't have a lot of heavy industry.
	Most of our industry is natural resource based, not using a lot of chemicals, like forestry for example.
	Why do we have such an elevated incidence of cancer of the environmental type?
	That's what's bothered me.
	Plutonium carries on the wind quite far, especially if it's vaporized.
	It goes around the world in a matter of, you know, a few hours on the upper elevation wind.
	Can you imagine 70 plus pounds of plutonium scorching back into the atmosphere?
	That's unimaginable.
	Well, I'll have my fingers crossed along with you on that date of the launch.
	October 6th.
	Yes, indeed.
	Alright, thank you very much.
	You're welcome.
	Take care.
	From British Columbia.
	Again, our international line, if you would like to call us, toll free from anywhere in the world, is 800-893-0903.
	That's 800-893-0903.
	Won't cost you a penny, or a shilling.
	Hosting to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
	800-893-0903 won't cost you a penny or a shilling.
	Listen to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 9th, 1997.
	🎵Coast to Coast AM by Art Bell plays🎵 🎵Coast to Coast AM by Art Bell plays🎵
	🎵Coast to Coast AM by Art Bell plays🎵 You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier
	Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 9th, 1997.
	Well, this is from Sean in Yucca Valley.
	NASA, he says, by embarking on the risky Cassini mission, is simply providing millions with the opportunity to glow where no man has glowed before.
	You've got to be able to laugh about it.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hey, Art.
	How are you?
	I'm okay.
	I'm calling from Portland.
	Yes, sir.
	I've got a question about your previous call, or your interview today for two hours.
	You know, who gives anybody permission You know, we're talking about... Would you turn your radio off, please?
	You know, with the percentages of accidents that NASA's been having... Yes.
	And he talked about the percentages of the Atlas, the percentages of the space shuttle... Well, yeah, he talked about... The space shuttle originally was said to have about a 1 in 100,000 chance of anything going wrong, you know, tragically wrong, blowing up.
	Right, and that was wrong.
	By just a little, I mean it was more like 1 in 25.
	As a human being, who polices the people, or who's in charge to make the decision to say, well, you know, if we have an accident, we can kill so many billion people, but that's okay, let's go ahead and do that.
	You know, we don't have a choice.
	Well, I think that's the whole point that I was trying to make.
	Whether you consider what he was saying alarmist or not, I think that the American people, the people of the world, have a right to know what the risks are, and that it should not take freedom of information demands, requests, to discern what the real risks are.
	In other words, NASA should be up front and should say, here's what we're doing, here's what could happen, because they have all this on paper, it's just that you've got to pry it out from them.
	Well, you know, I listen to your show every night, because I work all the nights, and when I can't listen to it up here on 1190 KEX, they play your rigged broadcast.
	Right.
	But let me tell you, I think that you're right.
	We have a voice, and we just need to say it, and this is one avenue, and I think your listeners should have other avenues that you can direct us to voice our opinions besides writing.
	Okay?
	Hey, thanks a lot.
	Thank you, sir, and take care.
	Yeah, I'm not even saying we shouldn't do it.
	There are risks attendant with nearly everything we do in space.
	Even more minor risks if a spacecraft should come down over a populated area.
	Lots of risks.
	But look, when you're dealing with 75 pounds of plutonium, a particularly poisonous variety, then I think that It is, or should be, public information, and there should be a national debate about it.
	It is, for those of you who tuned in late, the Cassini launch, which is going to examine the Saturn system.
	It will take years to get there.
	On board will be nearly 75 pounds, 70 plus pounds of plutonium-238.
	Which is particularly egregiously poisonous.
	And there are two risk points.
	One is the launch itself, a Titan IV.
	And the other is when the spacecraft comes back.
	In other words, before it goes to Saturn, it's going to go out and then come back and use a close Earth pass to accelerate the spacecraft.
	It will pass within two and five hundred miles of Earth.
	That's close, very close.
	And should this spacecraft re-enter, should there be an error, and things after all can go wrong, that much plutonium dispersed in the atmosphere would be horridly dangerous.
	They claim that it's in a safe-like atmosphere, you know, a vault-like atmosphere.
	But I think the reality, as described by my guest, is quite different.
	And again, I'm not suggesting that the mission should be cancelled.
	Just that the American people, and the world's people, should know what we're risking.
	That's all.
	And it should not take freedom of information requests, demands even, to get the information.
	And even then, it doesn't really get out To the people, unless I, you know, line somebody up like I had as a guest.
	It's just wrong.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Greetings, Mark.
	This is Dale from Lake Stevens, Washington.
	Dale, I can barely hear you.
	This is Dale from Lake Stevens, Washington.
	That's better.
	I'm right here near Tulalip, where that lady called from.
	Yes.
	And my lights did go out.
	Strange thing was.
	Your lights went out, too?
	Yes.
	But I was on a cordless.
	And even though they went out, the phone stayed on.
	The what?
	The phone stayed on, even though you're on the cordless.
	So I'm wondering, like, was it, like, time froze?
	I don't know.
	Well, there's no way to tell.
	Yeah, and I just say I've been listening to your show ever since Madman Markham was on.
	That's a long time ago now.
	Oh, I know.
	Madman may be elsewhere now.
	Somewhere, somewhere.
	Yep.
	Great to see you.
	Love your show.
	Thanks a lot.
	Alright, take care.
	So there's somebody backing up what that lady said.
	And I imagine she's listening for the crunch of leaves and twigs outside by now.
	East of the Rockies or on the air?
	Hi.
	Yeah, I think Mad Men might be in Seattle tonight, as a matter of fact.
	You're where?
	I said, I think Mad Men might have returned to Seattle tonight.
	Well, that might have been a... I have one question real quick.
	Did you make a change in Rochester yet?
	Uh, yes.
	I can't pick you up on the normal Rochester station.
	No, we did change to another station.
	I think they're 1280 on the dial.
	1280?
	Yep.
	Okay.
	One of the best investments I ever made was that select antenna, Art.
	Oh, isn't... Tell people how well that works.
	Oh, it's incredible.
	I'm here in Albany, New York, like I've called before, and there's no station here to pick you up, but I get you out of Chicago, get you out of Cleveland, out of Philadelphia, and Rochester, or Houston.
	I'm still trying to pick you up in Rochester.
	Right.
	Oh, it's a great product, Art.
	Talk to you soon.
	Alright, take care.
	He's using a select antenna, and at night, The Select Antenna will cut fading, you know that in-out stuff, by about 90%.
	It's a remarkable product.
	Remarkable.
	It was actually invented for navigation.
	And then one day somebody discovered the remarkable effect it had on receiving broadcast.
	So it's one of those fortuitous accidents.
	That's how most things are invented.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Yes.
	It's been a long time.
	I've been trying to get in touch with you.
	I sent you an email approximately two months ago concerning vampirism.
	Vampires?
	Yes.
	Did you receive it?
	I remember getting some email about vampires.
	What specifically did it say?
	Precisely that I'm from New Orleans, Louisiana.
	I'm calling from Florida right now.
	I've been involved in a vampire society for most of my adult life.
	You're telling me you are a vampire?
	Yes, Mr. Bell, I am.
	Okay.
	I sent you an email because I was going to go public with information concerning vampirism in America and how it's affected in the media.
	Well, the media basically ignores it.
	Except, of course, for movies and television and that sort of thing.
	Disinformation.
	Yes, and so here is an opportunity then to learn the true story behind vampirism.
	What is your story?
	What is an American vampire?
	An American vampire?
	That's right.
	It's true that the media ignores it because I did run out of the conference room at the A press conference in New York two months ago.
	I sent you an email concerning it.
	Now, you know what?
	I would have remembered that.
	You were going to have a press conference?
	Yes.
	And announce you're a vampire?
	Yes.
	Wow.
	And no one from any legitimate media sources in New York arrived.
	Oh, no.
	You know, tabloid journalists and assorted... I can't even put words to them.
	uh... but no less yes arrived at the at the plaza and no one would take it
	seriously and it's basically because
	well i'll tell you that there is a lot larger than people think
	well i will take it seriously let us discuss what of vampirism really is and isn't
	way of life it's a known fact
	where all these myths come from that We do.
	The sun does drain energy from our bodies.
	That's why we are creatures of the night.
	That's why we do go out nocturnally.
	But do you, as you know, the movies will show a vampire actually sizzling and burning up in the sun.
	Disinformation.
	Disinformation.
	I thought as much.
	Well, there you are.
	But the sun does weaken you, just like anyone else.
	And people who do thrive on blood and other bodily fluids, Well, let us hit the bottom line here.
	Do you actually drink blood?
	Yes, Mr. Bell, I do.
	Do you really?
	Human or animal or both?
	People who are in the vampire lifestyle do know of this and that's why they do travel
	by night.
	Well, let us hit the bottom line here.
	Do you actually drink blood?
	Yes, Mr. Bell, I do.
	Do you really?
	Human or animal or both?
	There have been times of both.
	I try to stay with animal blood.
	Yeah, what little I know of vampires, the more, you know this sounds silly, but the more ethical or moralistic vamps go for animal blood and pretty much leave humans alone.
	Is that true?
	Yes.
	A lot of the kids who are now getting involved in this pseudo-vampire cult and the romanticism of vampirism, they're experimenting with human blood.
	Human blood is only taken from vampire to vampire in rituals, also in sexual activities.
	It heightens the senses, but only with the partner you're with.
	For feeding, mostly cattle.
	Cattle?
	Mostly cattle.
	I had a club in New Orleans.
	It was called the Blue Crystal.
	It was a vampire bar.
	And we had associations with local butcher shops and we would get cattle blood and we would serve it with alcoholic beverages.
	How do you, lovely, how do you go into a butcher shop and ask for blood reasonably?
	You have to understand the city of New Orleans.
	The city of New Orleans has been... I'm going down to New Orleans in September as you would imagine it.
	I'm going to go to New Orleans.
	By the Blue Crystal on Decatur Street.
	Really?
	But don't mention my name.
	I'm sort of an outcast.
	Why?
	Because I did go public on cable access television in New Orleans.
	Learning vampirism.
	In other words, they don't like the limelight as well as sunlight.
	Pretty much, Mr. Bell.
	How did you become a vampire?
	I was introduced to it by a woman.
	I was 14 years old.
	Seduced?
	You could call it that.
	I did.
	Many female vampires also suck you by.
	Yeah, I'm sure.
	Yeah, that's a pun there.
	I was introduced to the lifestyle.
	I was introduced not only to the heightening of the senses, but also the social stature in the city of New Orleans.
	What is it about New Orleans, anyway, that is conducive to this sort of thing?
	I think it came from the West Indies, and also the European influence.
	New Orleans is the most European city in this nation, and it holds very strongly to its European values.
	Well, it also is the home to Anne Rice, who writes about people of your ilk.
	Yes, Anne is a very special lady.
	So, in other words, vampires generally look at the work of Van Rice as flattery.
	The work of Van Rice is, I will tell you now, Mr. Bell, more fact than fiction than she will let the public know about.
	Well, I had a feeling that might have been true, actually.
	Miss Rice was repaid for a favor, and I don't care if telling you this now, these are things Can you believe a vampire with goosebumps?
	I have them now.
	But this rice was repaid by a vampire in New Orleans.
	I'm not sure I want to know more about that.
	I think we'll just leave it there.
	Well, her success came back.
	Her success was given to her by a vampire.
	And she is highly successful, and she always will be.
	And she's highly protected.
	How long, uh, is there any difference in the lifespan of a vampire and a normal mortal?
	Mr. Bell, I would be happy to send you a photo of myself.
	I am 38 years old.
	Yes.
	I look like I'm 22.
	Uh-huh.
	I entered vampirism at the age of 14, and I will say that I've aged 8 years in 24 years.
	Not bad.
	Not bad at all.
	Beats most skin creams.
	But, you know, it's such a distasteful thing, this drinking of blood.
	How do you get past that part?
	It's actually flavored.
	Flavored?
	Flavorings.
	It's not what you see in the movies, where someone just goes to someone's neck or rips open a vein.
	It's ingested through other means.
	Like I say, at our bar, the Blue Crystal, alcoholic beverages were laced with blood.
	The food you ingest.
	Giving new name to Bloody Mary's?
	Yes.
	Or Blood Sausage.
	Oh, great.
	Blood Sausage.
	Well, is there anything else critical that we should know?
	Well, I wish people would have came to the press conference.
	All I want you to know is that the media... Why did you... Now, that's a good question.
	Why did you want to hold a press conference?
	Why did you want to go public?
	What was your motive?
	Because of the youth of today.
	Your term, the quickening.
	It's very on target.
	I know.
	We have a lost generation of people who are my age, mid to late 30s.
	They're going to be a valued commodity because there is no generation to follow them.
	They're very few and far between.
	Vampirism is contributing to that.
	We have serious vampire cults from Florida all the way to Seattle.
	So you're trying to tell the American people there are many more vampires than they might imagine?
	Yes, and they're not the kids you see with the black makeup and the pale white skin and all this.
	They're the ones who are basically the storm troopers.
	They're the ground troops.
	The people behind the media are promoting this, promoting bands like Marilyn Manson, promoting all these bands and getting the youth involved in it, but not letting them up to the upper echelon to know what the plan is.
	What is the plan?
	Basically to dispose of this last generation.
	Wow.
	The human race will not be around much longer, now that we know it.
	No?
	It's a shame.
	There are people in levels of society who know about it.
	They know of the plan.
	How many vampires do you think are there now in America?
	Over a million.
	A million vampires?
	Yes, Mr. Bell.
	Well, that's frightening.
	That really is frightening.
	You can pick up any magazine.
	Yes.
	People, variety, and read names.
	And 20% of the names you'll read in variety are vampires.
	Really?
	We're talking major studio heads, major corporate executives.
	So there are more vampires by percentage in Hollywood, then, for example, than there are elsewhere.
	Say, in St.
	Louis.
	Oh, actually, if you look towards a city like Chicago, the birthplace of Walt Disney, Walt Disney was a vampire, Mr. Bell.
	Was he really?
	And the tradition follows in that company.
	I mean, I've heard so much about Walt Disney, but that's one thing I've never heard.
	That he was a vampire.
	And so maybe... It's true for him.
	Oh, really?
	And the tradition carries down with people in the organization.
	But he did so many good things, Walt did, that it's hard to imagine him as a vampire.
	I'm not saying vampires are evil.
	They live a different lifestyle.
	Well, I'm sure from your point of view, you wouldn't believe that, of course.
	You know, of course, he did many wonderful things, but he lived a certain lifestyle.
	And that lifestyle, it has been perverted, that's what I'm trying to say.
	They know what's happening in this world, they know Where the human race is headed.
	So you're in... I don't care.
	Your intent, then, was to... Let the world know we're here.
	Uh-huh.
	Quit hiding the fact.
	Uh, so you're coming out of the casket, so to speak.
	I like that.
	Maybe put that on a t-shirt in my next business endeavor.
	Well, I mean, that is what it amounts to, isn't it?
	All right, well, listen, I really have got to leave, I'm afraid, because we're at the bottom of the hour, but this has been a, uh...
	Unusual discussion.
	Mr. Bell, keep it in mind, if you have your email filed on computer, try to find that.
	Alright, I'll see what I can do.
	Otherwise, send it again.
	Thanks for the call, and call us again.
	Have a good evening, Mr. Bell.
	Yeah, you too.
	Ciao.
	Oh, it was right.
	Only here.
	Only with unscreened calls.
	You think you would have heard that on anybody else's program?
	No way, Jose.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	The night featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 9th, 1997.
	Can't stay alive without your love.
	Oh baby, don't leave me this way, oh.
	I can't accept I'll surely miss your tender kiss.
	Don't leave me this way.
	Baby!
	My heart is full of love and desire for you.
	Now come down and do what you gotta do.
	You started this fire down in my soul.
	And I'm down in my bones Now can't you see it's burning like a...
	...Burning in my bones...
	Burning in my bones...
	Burning in my bones...
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 9th, 1997.
	Reading from the Associated Press again, a Staten woman says she found a double crop circle in a wheat field near Highway 22.
	Mary Ann Koch says the formation is about 50 to 60 feet across and is located in a field about 100 yards northeast of the Silver Creek Falls exit.
	Koch admits she's fascinated by crop circles, so she contacted the media in order to document this one.
	The first recorded case is from England in 1973, but public interest waned in the early 1990s when two British men confessed to having made the first formation.
	The circles, of course, are typically found in wheat or barley fields.
	Guess who I've got on the phone?
	I've got Marianne Koch on the phone.
	The one who found this particular circle.
	Coming up in a moment.
	Well alright, uh...
	Here is Marianne Koch.
	Marianne, are you there?
	Yes, I'm here.
	Alright.
	Are you on a portable phone?
	No.
	Okay, for some reason we have hum on the line.
	But we'll put up with it.
	Marianne, you located this crop circle.
	You found this crop circle.
	Well, I don't think I was probably the first one to see it, but I was the first one to report it or that had enough excitement about it and took it forth to hope that other people would see it.
	I was just driving home from my store at about 7 o'clock in the evening and I'd usually spend more time looking around at the scenery and the sky.
	Everything that I do the road and I just looked over and said, Oh, wow, there's a crop circle.
	And then I realized I'd missed the exit.
	And then I said, My God, it really is a crop circle, I think.
	And so I was late getting home.
	So I went on home because I'd missed the exit.
	And the next morning, I stopped and I got out of my car and there's road construction going on right in front of the area where this field is.
	And this heavy equipment's going back and forth.
	And I'm looking through the dust.
	I'm looking over saying, you know, that it isn't Sprinklers that have made circles.
	It isn't other anomalies that you normally see in fields.
	What is this field?
	What's growing?
	It's wheat.
	Wheat fields?
	Yes.
	Alright.
	And it's just a very precise double circle.
	And that to me was a dead giveaway for... Alright, a double... Circles in what way?
	A circle within a circle or circles connected to each other or what?
	No, it's a circle within a circle.
	Oh.
	Uh-huh.
	And it has a pathway or an opening that goes from the center to what we call the top.
	It's on kind of a side hill.
	I was pretty excited about it, but from the ground you couldn't see it very well.
	That was Wednesday morning.
	By Thursday morning I called the newspaper and they said they would get somebody over to talk to me, but nobody responded.
	The next morning they said, oh, they declined to cover it.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	I thought that was pretty interesting.
	So I said, well, thank you very much.
	I'm going to call the next biggest paper I know, and I called Portland.
	And they said, yeah, we'll come down.
	It did take them a little longer than I hoped, but it was over the 4th of July.
	And on Saturday morning, we met out in the field, and they did some filming.
	And they also went up the helicopter and took some overhead shots.
	Oh!
	And I went up in an airplane on Sunday.
	Oh my!
	Shot a bunch of film up, and I'll send you the whole set of the prints.
	Is it fairly impressive from the air?
	Well, it's actually, I think by crop circle standards, it's sort of small, very clean looking.
	Yes, it's a nice little crop circle, I'd say.
	It's probably, well, I skipped, the guy that called you a little while ago?
	Yes.
	He actually went out there and measured it, and I'm surprised he didn't say anything to you.
	What do we know about it?
	How big is it?
	About 45 and a half feet crossed, and it has a signature off to the side, which I didn't know what a signature was exactly until I got a call from the Research Center for Crop Circle Studies.
	Yes.
	And they were telling me that in the signature, or the funny little downed graph on the side, that the Anomalies that they find when they examine it are about a hundred times more active or more changed than in the actual circle itself.
	In the signature?
	Yes.
	There is a Dr. Levengood.
	I'm sure you know of him.
	Have they sent samples to Dr. Levengood?
	Well, that's why it surprised me that Scott didn't say a word.
	Scott's the one that's supposed to... I mean, Skip's the one that's supposed to have taken the samples and sent them there.
	Okay.
	I'm hoping that that happened.
	Because he got to the farmer before I did.
	What's the farmer got to say about all this?
	Well, he claims he found it about four days before I did.
	And that he wasn't going to really say too much about it.
	And he was pretty upset with me for putting it in the paper.
	Yeah, I understand that.
	In other words, they're afraid people are going to go tromping across their field and ruin their crop.
	Well, there are people who are disrespectful and have walked in this field, but proportionately,
	I mean, most of the people walk on the one little tiny path that has been put in there
	and most people will just stay off this field, but there's a few people that have gone in
	the circle.
	I've not yet gone out there because I just don't feel right about doing that without
	permission.
	But the air photographs are cool, but what I want to really say is that after we examined
	these air photographs and saw the signature and a few things on here, I was talking to
	Charlotte King in Salem.
	I know Charlotte, yes.
	She and I discovered that on these photographs you can see some kind of energy pathway that makes a different pattern on the whole field.
	It shows up in all the photographs, both the ones taken from 1,500 feet and the ones taken from 1,800 feet.
	They come in from each corner and then there's sort of a bar through the middle that connects and the crop circle isn't really on the exact grid of this
	other pattern.
	And it looks sort of like a 12 foot wide, um, sort of like brushing effect.
	And it has little swirl lines across it.
	And it's fairly subtle and yet you can pick it out once you know what you're looking for.
	You can see it in all these photos.
	So I'm going to send you a whole set.
	I want you to see that.
	Well, I'll scan them and get them on the website.
	Great.
	So everybody can see it.
	I don't know what those energy lines are, but it's just something new that I don't know.
	It's great.
	Was there any evidence that a human being did it?
	I mean, I guess that's really hard because I'm sure there were tracks there by the time you saw it.
	Well, actually by the time I saw it, there was only one little Sure.
	Did he indicate over what period it formed or did he just sort of find it one day?
	He said one day it wasn't there and the next day it was.
	Skip, who called in earlier, I'm surprised he didn't say more because he gained the confidence of the farmer early, but after Skip This is what I understand.
	After Skip took the samples and whatever, he told the farmer that he was fairly convinced that it wasn't a real crop circle.
	And Skip belongs to Mufon and so forth.
	But I don't know how many crop circles he's actually seen.
	Probably about as many as I have, which is like, now we're counting one.
	I've never seen one in person.
	Yeah, well the sheer sign of it is I've been trained in remote viewing and so I didn't want to go in the crop circle because I just didn't feel right since I didn't have permission.
	But I figured I could remote view it.
	Well, I happened to sit down and do my remote viewing about the time they were taking samples.
	I didn't really know that, but when I got there, I found them taking samples.
	And what I found out, too, was that after they left there, they didn't feel very well, which is, I think, normal after you get in a cross-circle.
	There's a lot of electromagnetic energy.
	Yeah, it can affect you.
	You can have headache and stomach ache.
	That kind of thing.
	So I'm surprised he didn't say that to you.
	Maybe we can get him to call back and fill in some blanks here.
	Well, maybe.
	I certainly appreciate the information you've given me.
	It's not every day you get to talk to somebody who actually found a crop circle.
	Well, I have another little piece of news.
	Now that we got it on the newspaper, a couple people called me and said, oh, is this the one that's over between Corvallis and Independence?
	And I said, no, this is the one between Dayton and Salem.
	So there may be another one over here.
	Because some people said, oh, I saw one over, you know, and so I have to go see if they really saw one or not.
	Well, now, what's going on in Oregon?
	Well, there's been a lot of triangle ships showing up.
	There's been a lot of lights in the sky.
	There's been blue lightning the other night.
	A number of things are going on that we don't know what it's all about yet.
	Well, we're in a strange time, Marianne.
	We really are.
	Yes, we are.
	Well, look, I sincerely appreciate the information and any follow-ups.
	Do you have my address?
	I have your fax address, but I don't know... No, no, no, no.
	You need my mailing address.
	You're going to send... Well, I've got your newsletter.
	It's in there, right?
	Well, let's see.
	Is it?
	I think it is.
	If not, let me give it to you now.
	Okay, great.
	You ready?
	It's PO Box 4755 in Pahrump.
	mailbox four seven five five seven five five in perumph p a h r u m p nevada zip code
	eight nine zero four And if you'll get me the photos, I'll get them on the website.
	I will get them right off to you tomorrow, and I'll send them special quick mail.
	All right, consider it done.
	Thank you.
	Marianne Koch, thank you.
	Take care.
	There's a lady who found the crop circle, folks, in Oregon.
	And there may be a second one in Oregon.
	Hmm.
	What is going on?
	These really are strange times.
	Anybody out there have the feeling of a definite impending event?
	Um, on my international line, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Hey, good day, Art.
	How you doing from Australia?
	Oh, I'm doing very well.
	What part of Australia are you in?
	This is Mark in Melbourne.
	I've called you before.
	Yes, Mark.
	Yeah, this has been an interesting show tonight, and I want you to know that you get this amazing echo on tonight's play out on the internet.
	Really?
	Yeah, you get a bunch of repeats, so I'll wait until you finish your live, and I'll go back and pull down the archive and see whether it was actually the internet, my connection, or maybe your satellite.
	It's hard to say.
	There are so many links in between here and Australia.
	It takes about seven or eight jumps before it gets to Australia.
	Yeah, I can appreciate that.
	I just wanted to talk about an article I saw in one of our newspapers a couple days ago.
	Okay.
	It talked about a bloke from Sacramento who's in the real estate business.
	And what is he selling?
	The moon.
	Oh, yeah.
	I believe he has also now begun to sell plots on Mars as well.
	I wouldn't doubt it.
	You know, the guy's already making money off of it, and it's not illegal.
	And, you know, some of them have got some little towns, some people named towns on the moon already.
	Well, I think that he has named himself Master of the Universe or something.
	Something strange like that.
	And as Master of the Universe, why, he is also Realtor of the Universe.
	And that's a pretty good deal, actually, when you think about it.
	There's also a company that will name a star after you for a certain amount of money.
	Not that it is official in any way, but they send you a little map of where your star is, and you've got a star.
	My goodness, what a sight on real capitalism.
	Well, I'll let you go.
	It's been a great show, and from Australia, we want to just say keep up the good work, and say hello to all the other Australians that are down here listening to you, including my friend Stan Dale.
	Oh, yes, and good morning to you, Stan.
	Thank you very much for the call.
	From down under, where the seasons are different, it is now their wintertime there.
	Can you imagine that?
	Their wintertime.
	Or summertime.
	Even though it hasn't quite been the summer it should have been.
	So far, anyway.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi Art, this is Jeff from Pinson, Alabama.
	How you doing, Jeff?
	Pretty good.
	I want to talk to that guy who said he was a vampire.
	Well, he's already gone, unfortunately.
	But I have a feeling that he was serious.
	He said he didn't like being out in sunlight?
	Yeah.
	I guess he doesn't like nuclear power either.
	That's a question.
	I wonder how they feel about nuclear power.
	It's not exactly the same as sunlight.
	It's pretty much.
	I mean, can you imagine what would happen if the Reagan administration invented the sun?
	Imagine a giant, continuously exploding hydrogen bomb with no shielding?
	Good God, your first guest would have blown a blood vessel!
	It's okay.
	I mean, it's okay that we can put a little bit of, you know, 72 pounds of plutonium like there's not more uranium than that up under the ground, leaking radon gas all over the place that we don't have anything to do with.
	If we want to get rid of it and shoot it out into space where it doesn't hurt anybody now, we're going to blow it up.
	Wait a minute now.
	Hold on now.
	Uranium-238 is pretty serious stuff.
	And should it re-enter the atmosphere, there'd be a lot of unhappy campers, believe me.
	Well, that's already happened in Canada.
	Not everybody's dead.
	I think, to me, technophobia is a lot more frightening.
	Than any amount of plutonium.
	Because remember, the dinosaurs were destroyed because of their lack of technology.
	In other words, had they been able to shoot that KT event thing out of the sky before it arrived, they'd still be here roaming the Earth, and we'd be an afterthought.
	Very true.
	In fact, I think I know of a new conspiracy.
	See, I think that the vampires, first they're going to ban all of our space probes, then they're going to ban the sun, and since we'll all be bumping around in the dark, we'll have to be vampire-sick.
	Well, I think that's kind of what he was driving at anyway.
	Yeah, we'll just all be in the dark, and you know, the colleges say, we don't need sunlight anymore.
	We don't have photosynthesis.
	That's the only way out.
	We're all going to this chemosynthesis, and we'll just go down to the ocean and stay around smokers and hug our dolphins.
	Well, I don't get a lot of sun.
	I mean, I work these hours, so I don't get a lot of sun.
	I am not, however, a vampire.
	You know, I think I just might be, because I don't like garlic.
	I've been a security guard for too long.
	I don't even remember what the sunlight looks like anymore.
	Can you imagine that?
	An Alabama redneck vampire.
	God help us all.
	Uh, indeed.
	And I thank you for the call.
	Thank you.
	An Alabama redneck vampire.
	Huh.
	So, in the back of his pickup truck, he'd probably have, like, an IV bottle or something.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hey, Art.
	Hey, yes.
	Hey, this is Josh in Pasco, Washington.
	Yes, sir.
	Hey, I was just wondering, I actually have two questions.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Are there really men in black?
	Yes.
	There are?
	Yes.
	Where do they work out of from, supposedly?
	Men in Black Headquarters.
	Which is in... where do you think?
	Well, now you know I can't talk about that.
	Hmm.
	But, I mean, that's the best answer I can give you right now.
	Hmm.
	So, is there any possibility that, like, if something like that freaky occurrence happened in Seattle, they would respond to?
	Um, only if there is evidence of it lurking or held by somebody.
	Then, of course, men in black are dispatched to take that evidence.
	Also, one last question.
	Sure.
	What kind of smokes do you smoke?
	Cigarettes?
	Yeah.
	Carlton 120s.
	Carlton 120s.
	Yeah, they're almost not a cigarette in the sense that they have so little tar and nicotine in them, supposedly, that, you know, like You know when every now and then somebody will bum a cigarette from you?
	Or want to?
	And I'll say sure and I'll pull out my cigarettes and they'll say no thanks.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	Well, I used to smoke some Saratoga 120's and people were constantly addicted and bumming them from me.
	Really?
	Really.
	I'm always embarrassed.
	I mean, I offer them and they say, hey, I meant a real cigarette.
	Well, those aren't real cigarettes.
	They're manly cigarettes.
	No, I'm talking about my Carlton's.
	Okay, well, thank you, sir.
	Alright, you're welcome.
	It really is embarrassing.
	Can I have a moment, sir?
	I've got Osher here.
	Oh, well, no thank you.
	And I moved to these years ago.
	I used to smoke Salem's.
	That was a decade ago or so.
	And I noticed they were pretty harsh on me.
	So I switched to the Carlton's and they seemed better.
	Milder.
	Almost not a cigarette, in a sense, but still satisfying.
	Satisfying to the heroin-like habitual cravings that I have.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Oh, hello!
	Hello!
	Actually, you know, Art, I was called to tell you a story.
	Because I think you're probably the only person who's open-minded enough on radio to believe it, or at least to contemplate it.
	I'll contemplate it.
	Okay.
	When I was a child, before I was in first grade, there were seven kids in my family, and my older sister, she's almost three years older than me, there was an empty lot behind our house.
	We lived in a huge Dutch colonial house in San Francisco.
	Yes.
	Now, I went to go get my sister because my mother said it was dinner time.
	So I ran in the backyard and climbed up the brick trellis Yes.
	And looked over the fence and tried to hop onto the 2x4 and look over and my sister was on the ground with two men in black.
	I know that's so cliche.
	Uh huh.
	They were dressed in black with black hats and one of them had a syringe to her arm.
	Oh man.
	And I screamed her name.
	I can see this like a movie in my head all my life and I'm 41.
	Men in black with needles.
	Yes.
	That's horrible.
	I know, and I remember it to this day that she doesn't.
	Is this the story that was supposed to cheer me up?
	Well, no, but just to let you know that, you know... I'm going to have a guest on Men in Black.
	Oh, yeah?
	Yeah, not a laughable thing, a serious thing.
	Well, this is serious.
	My sister doesn't remember it.
	Alright, well, I'm going to have a guest.
	Listen, my program is ending.
	Well, I should say goodnight to all of America for you.
	And not just America, but Canada and Australia and, you know, everybody.
	All our buddies.
	Goodnight, all.
	Thanks, Art.
	Thank you.
	That's it from the high desert.

▲