Fr. Malachi Martin, a 1921-born Jesuit scholar laicized in 1964 after clashing with Vatican reforms, warns of a 750–800% rise in demonic possession since 1970, linked to Satanic covens and "black Wicca," while dismissing The Bible Codes as unreliable. He insists possession requires consent—even "perfectly possessed" individuals initially invite evil—and that exorcism can’t proceed without it due to civil rights laws. Unfriendly spirits, like "dream weavers" or shamanic entities, thrive on Earth’s "middle plateau," causing chaos, while baptized innocents suffer for Christ’s redemptive purpose. Martin links occult crimes to childhood abuse and free-will choices, criticizing modern clergy’s denial of the devil as a "goody-goody theology." He also speculates that UFOs may stem from demonic origins tied to Lucifer’s revolt, though Earth remains the primary battleground until cosmic judgment. [Automatically generated summary]
There have been a lot of inquiries, apparently, because you're a very public person, about your background and your training and how you came to the priesthood and what your current status is.
So instead of my reading a bio, why don't you just go ahead and tell us?
And I joined the Jesuits, the Jesuit Order, the Order of the Jesuits.
I joined it in 1939 just as war was being declared.
In fact, I did it three days after we heard Prime Minister Chamberlain of England declare war on Germany.
And Germany had attacked Poland.
And I remained in Ireland for the duration of the war because we couldn't get out.
It was dangerous to travel.
And during that time, I got a university degree in Semitic languages and Oriental art and archaeology and history.
And after the war, I taught, I went to philosophy for three years.
It was the Jesuit rigorous training.
And we went to philosophy for three years and got a degree from that.
Then they had me teach little boys French and Greek for a couple of years.
Every Jesuit had to undergo that teaching experience.
Because if you can teach Greek and Latin to little boys who just want to get out of class, you have learned to teach.
After that, they sent me to Belgium, to a place called Louvain, where I studied theology for four years, and where I was ordained a priest, a member of the Jesuit Order.
And I spent another three years getting a doctorate in Semitic languages, Oriental art and archaeology and history.
And I did a special work published in two volumes on the Dead Sea Scrolls.
And I spent a lot of time in the Middle East and studying the actual scrolls themselves.
And I became an expert in paleography, that is ancient handwriting.
It all sounds very boring, but it was very exciting.
And then they brought me back to Rome to a place called the Biblical Institute.
That's the central part of the Vatican which trains professors of Bible.
And I became a professor with tenure of Hebrew and paleography and New Testament and Old Testament and of one or two other languages like Aramaic, which is used in the Bible and was the language which Jesus spoke.
But I arrived just down there in 1957, 58, and the old Pope, Pacelli, Pius XII, had died, and his successor was John XXIII.
And his great collaborator was a Jesuit called Father Baer, Augustine Baer, a German Jesuit who lived in Rome, had been in Rome for years.
And he took a shine to me, and his room was just beside mine in the Jesuit house.
And at that time, John XXIII was very keen on establishing a new relationship with the Jewish community.
So he brought me over to John XXIII, who was very keen to have some young man, and I was in my 30s, some young man who was trained in Talmud, which I was, and in Bible and in the biblical languages, because John was setting up a huge network of relationships with Jewish organizations in Europe and in America.
And then he was going to hold a thing called the Second Vatican Council, which met finally in 1962 and lasted until 1965, lasted three years.
John died in the middle of it in 1963, but his successor, Paul VI, kept it up, and I was functioning all that time.
However, I had gone to my superiors in 1959, 1960, and said, look, I'm not satisfied the way things are going.
And they said, why?
Well, I said, because I don't agree with some of the policy decisions being made, and I don't agree the way these decisions are being implemented.
I disagreed with changes, modernizations of the liturgy.
And I disagreed also with the general trend in Rome at that institute was to diminish the age-old tradition about the nature of scripture as being the word of God.
The dominant school of thought was a Germanic school which held that much of the Bible could be explained as a form of literature, as a form of popular myth-making.
In fact, a lot of people would like it if I were, because writing for all that length of time and talking to so many people over so much radio, they would like it if I swung away, because I'm really known to be fuddy-duddy conservative.
It allows me a certain great latitude, but it also puts restrictions on me, because I can't back every political cause I'd like to back, because there are limitations on me for that.
But to fling one's weight into a political fight, which I sometimes would love to do, I restrain myself because I think, between you and me, I think that the one thing Jesus dislikes is politicking clergy because he had a lot of trouble with it in his day.
It seems to me that you cannot do it with clean hands.
I may be too condemnatory in that sense, although I'm not condemnatory.
I hear confessions all day and forgive sins as a Catholic priest, as a human being.
But it would seem that you've got to prevaricate, yes.
You have to speak out of two sides of your mouth.
You have to promise, knowing you will not fulfill your promises, and you have to pretend you side with an issue because it's good for you for re-election.
Or would you say that even a good man trying to enter the political world to do good things would have to do what he has to do to get where he wants to go to do the good things he wants to do?
It has become the habit that you're not called father officially.
Since I have three doctors, I chose to be called Dr. Martin or Father Martin.
Many people have called me as that.
And there's no difficulty with that.
Except, for instance, in the Archdiocese where I live in New York, the Archdiocese does not want any priest that's not part of the diocese, and I'm not part of the diocese, not to wear clericals.
But I just want to note that a lot of Catholics, they'll meet you for the first time and they find out you're a priest, but you're wearing a shirt and tie.
Well, I'm very glad you've told me that because nobody else did.
Nobody brought it to my attention.
What I used to say, and it still holds retroactively, that if between the end of winter 97 and the end of spring 97, there were such signs in the skies,
then that heralded something very, very awesome and something awesome and therefore fearful within, say, six or nine months of that time.
Certainly before winter of 1998 is over and probably before this calendar year, 97, is over.
Well, the answer to the first question is very simple, and it is a needed statement.
There was, for quite a while, a constant rumor being repeated, especially in the popular press, that somehow or other, either Roman Catholic priests or Jewish rabbis or Jewish scholars,
some group anyway, had found certain scrolls, certain writings from Wadi Gumran, that's the place in Jordan now where the original writers of the Dead Sea Scrolls lived, a place called Ayen Feshka, and that they had these, if they revealed these documents, that they would upset every traditional view of Christianity and Judaism.
Now, we have examined every inch.
The truth is, we have examined every inch of every Dead Sea scroll, every scroll produced in this scrollery, produced by the scribes transcribing them by hand.
There is nothing extraordinary being kept from the public.
What is being kept from the public is the publication of all the documents, because it takes a terrific amount of time to decipher them and to print them and publish them and translate them.
But nothing has been hidden by a cabal of scholars, Christian or Jewish, and it gives a very false impression.
That's the first thing to say, that it is all accessible.
It now is all accessible, and as time goes on, it will be more and more studied and illuminated by scholarship.
And then sometimes it's not so much that they're large unpublished, but significantly some things are small little scraps.
For instance, only in recent years, Art have we found out that one scrap, I suppose it's about the size of the palm of my hand, which is certainly from the scrollery, and which certainly dates from about 10 years after Jesus died, and presumably Jesus died by crucifixion in the year 33.
But this scrap coming from the scrollery in Wadi Gumran, the Dead Sea Scrolls place, the monastery as we call it, has on its back a quotation from the Gospel of St. Mark.
And that is revolutionary, because that shows that the Gospel of St. Mark was circulating at that time.
That would be about the year 45 or the year 50 AD.
And that is revolutionary.
That mere small little fragment.
And so on.
There are other surprises to come.
Now, there's one thing which we must keep in mind, though, and it's this.
The soil in Palestine, the soil in that part of the country, that part of the world, I should say, now it's mainly Israel, Is a dry soil which preserves things.
And, you know, Jesus, when he was taken prisoner one night, the night before he died, he was being interrogated.
And one of his interrogators said to him, what have you been teaching in the streets?
What's your doctrine?
And he came back very strongly.
Jesus never turned the other cheek, by the way, ever.
And at that same interview, by the way, somebody struck him across the face.
Somebody struck him.
He didn't turn the other cheek.
He turned on the man and said, why did you hit me?
If I've done something wrong, say so.
If I didn't, what right have you to hit me?
But anyway, Jesus answered to the accusation that he was teaching doctrine, said, I'm sorry.
I have never taught.
And then he used an expression in Aramaic, and in Greek, we have it in Greek, which is normally translated as in secret.
Asod would be the Aramaic.
But basod is the term used in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the official documents of the group of people who were there, to indicate their special meetings, their professional gatherings.
So what he was telling his interrogator was, look, there are those fellows out there by Wadi Gumran, and they're revolutionaries.
They're Essenes, and they're zealots.
And they are your enemies, because they're revolutionaries.
But I don't belong to them.
I don't teach in their gatherings.
I don't frequent them.
So there are traces that Jesus knew about it like that in the New Testament, if you know how to read it.
But in the Dead Sea Scrolls themselves, there's nothing specifically Christian at all.
There's a lot that can be learned about the times in which Jesus lived and what people believed.
And I could spend the next three hours going through the New Testament, pointing out where there's an incidence between Dead Sea Scrolls and the Gospels.
I want to ask you about something very recent on the horizon, Father.
There have been a number of people.
There's a new book out by Mr. Drosnan called The Bible Codes.
And while I have not interviewed Mr. Drosnan, I have interviewed a man called Stan Tennon.
And he has for 30 years been working on the ancient Aramic and claims to have, this is very interesting, to have deciphered, yes indeed, a code in the Bible in ancient Aramic, Aramaic, I guess.
Aramaic.
Thank you.
And he claims, most fascinating discovery, that these codes translate into geometric patterns that, if viewed, actually allow, for example, in Genesis, one to enter a state of experiencing not just what is written in Genesis, but what actually occurred.
And then he claims, of course, that some people have not come out of the experience as whole people anymore, and that only those who are the most pure are able to have this experience.
Anybody can have it, but not anybody can come out of it totally sane.
Oh, I've heard about it all right, the Bible codes.
I've heard about it.
And indeed, there has always been a tendency, not more than a tendency, there's always been the habit, especially amongst Jewish scholars, Talmudic experts, to read the bare words of the Bible,
which is mainly Hebrew, but some Aramaic, but mainly ancient Hebrew, to read them in such a way that they get a double meaning out of it, and a more profound meaning than the simple meaning we take from the historical parts of the Bible.
Gemetria is actually a word used in the Talmud, the Jewish Talmud, but it comes from the Greek word geometry.
Gemetria is the use of the letters of words, say in the first line of Genesis is Bereshit Bara'el Elarim, Etashamaim Bata'aris.
In the beginning God created heaven and earth.
But they take each letter and they give it a value, a numerical value, And they translate those numerical values into other words more profound than the bare statement: in the beginning God created heaven and earth.
If you know something did happen, you find confirmation of it in Gemitria.
But it's merely a confirmation.
New revelations about God, new revelations about the evolution of mankind, new revelations about God's nature, about our destiny, and about holiness, and about the entire question of religious belief.
No, I don't consider it reliable.
You must have it beforehand, but Kemetria does provide a confirmation.
There are books published on this, and you have to know math very well.
And nowadays, you must be able to use a calculator, because you've got to run off a new calculator the value of a word.
Well, the man who published the work called The Bible Codes, Drosman, claims that it is predictive, that it is prophecy.
I find that explanation far less elegant than Mr. Tennin's, which is that these geometric patterns produced by the Bible codes actually allow one to experience what is generally written in the King James Version, for example.
And that's a very elegant explanation indeed, and if true, I can't say it's something I could try because I'm not nearly pure enough to try it.
Then it goes against, I must say I couldn't do it from the point of view of doctrine, because I don't believe that that's the way I'm supposed to find God.
I'm supposed to find my belief.
I have a far more what I would call it objective norm.
That's not to attack anybody as subjective.
But the difficulty is this, Art, that if I'm allowed to set up rules of interpretation, which I choose arbitrarily, arbitrarily, because I'm just one single person, and with that, I find out that I can predict such and such and such and such.
First of all, people must wait to see are those predictions fulfilled?
But apart from that completely, there is so much to be seen there that my one main advice to you is to make a choice beforehand because you can't stay there forever.
Well, then, in two days, there are certain things you can see and are worth seeing and that repay the Time put into it.
You can see St. Peter's and you can see the Vatican museums, the main museums, in one day, in less than one day, in one good outing, organized by some agency.
And there are many good ones in Rome, and there are many good ones here that organized it in Rome for you.
You enter this thing, and when you enter it, the light goes on, and as you move through it, down along the passageways, the light behind you goes off, and the light ahead of you goes on.
A mafia soldier, who is on vacation over here from the west coast, because he's done something over there and he's in retirement for the moment over here, citing people I know, they'll explain exactly what happened.
In fact, one of my first contacts as a priest in New York was with a mafia soldier who had been shot up and needed absolution and anointing.
And the situation is generally the same as the young man who came to me about 15 years ago and said, look, Father, I want a such and such and such and such and such and such.
And I made a pact with the devil.
unidentified
I said to him, if you really are Satan, and if you have power, give me this.
Father, there are many People who have, at one time or another, let it cross their mind: let me have this, let me succeed in this, let me do this, and I'll sell my soul, whatever.
Now, how does one know whether one actually has made a pact with the devil or one has just had a fleeting horrid little thought that went away?
You see, the classical form is the person who makes themselves very obnoxious in their behavior.
And they're really like the child, when a child is hungry, an infant who can't talk, they bang their heads on the ground and they throw themselves around, they protest, and saying, I'm hungry, or I'm dirty, or I'm thirsty.
Well, that is the difficulty, that we do find those in charge of things.
And when you do, but I've seen the following take place in a certain bureaucracy, which I won't name, but a very well-known bureaucracy of a worldwide nature,
not nearly American, people by men and women of ordinary means, some of them Hindus, some of them Christians, some of them Jews, some of them nothing at all, but with a natural, what I know, for want of a better phrase, civic virtue, isolating somebody who is obviously perfectly possessed and getting rid of them.
Because somehow or other they just, everybody agreed there's a consensus that this person was in alliance with something that militated against their best interest as human beings.
They felt uncomfortable in the presence of this person and also saw that the direction of their actions and decisions, which they had power to take within the bureaucracy, was evil humanly, just humanly, just humanly.
I've seen that happen.
But yes, there are people in very high places as well as in normally high places who are perfectly possessed.
As far as my experience in life goes, I don't doubt God's grace or God's greatness, God's power, but neither do I doubt or belittle the power of Lucifer.
He is the prince.
Satan is something else.
As you know, it's not the same being.
unidentified
Satan and Lucifer are different one from the other.
Well, if Lucifer has all of these perfectly possessed people that are in effect in league with him, have made a deal with him, then why does Lucifer from time to time do this horrible thing and possess the otherwise totally innocents who have not asked for in any way any sort of deal with him?
unidentified
Well, nobody is possessed against their will.
You always say yes.
Even the semi-possessed, even the obsessed, which is a stage prior to obsessed, the possession.
By the way, Father, WABC Radio in New York, the big one there in New York, is having discussions with us presently about possibly getting on the air there.
Z big apple.
And for two Saturdays recently, we sent them programs that we had done in the past, which they ran from, I think, midnight to 5 o'clock in the morning.
And one of those programs was one of the ones I had done with you.
And we want to outline those, but in general it is that both the hectapella, the person doing it, somebody else, must have an arrangement, be in league with, have a pact with, demonic forces, and the person affected must lack protection.
to put it in human language, on this level of understanding art, it is the arrangement whereby I, at least in general, my life trend and in the way I behave, I follow the dictates of what I call my conscience, which is really my angel, that we all assigned an angel to protect us.
Because on this again, in this context, there is always danger of being attacked by demonic forces, either directly or indirectly.
And we have an angel, a guardian angel we call it, or him or her.
There's no sex involved, so we use him or her or it.
We always have an angel who can protect us.
If we forsake that angel, and the general trend of our life is in the very opposite direction, then we are liable.
I don't need to, because there are two or three going on at the same time.
And I decide what must be done, interview the people, and assign it, and then observe, and the time step in to correct something.
It goes on continuously because since I started this work in the United States, since 1970, and it's now 1997, 98, coming into it, the incidence of possession and therefore of exorcism has increased between 750 to 800%.
And it's really nature worship and that sort of business.
You know, it's innocent in that sense.
It's a reversal to the gods of nature.
And it's gods of nature as such.
And that, of course, has its own liabilities as regards belief in God himself.
But the white Wicca, and I know the chief Wiccan in Long Island, a very respectable lady, and she holds classes teaching people how to enter Wicca, White Wicca, and they will have nothing to do with any other form.
And I have met many Wicca people who are led out of it by sheer devotion to nature and by finding out that the beauty and the truth around them must mirror some greater beauty, greater truth, more permanent beauty and truth elsewhere.
And that's God.
But it all depends, it's very hard to give an accurate answer to your question because it all depends on what graces have been offered you.
Has God entered your life and have you refused it?
Well, I'll tell you, somebody has said, and it's a way of entering into this, somebody has said that if I say to you, and I'm not me and you're not Art Bell, so we're two mythical people, but if I say to you, look, I want to love you, that's the beginning of love.
And it comes upon you in this, that when you find that, for instance, the fires in you that would, once upon a time, tended you to less good actions, tended you to less pure motives,
that limited your original fits of anger, of lust, of gourmandis, of jealousy.
You find those fires dying down and a certain specific sense entering your inner being that there is something taking place.
Pastoral experience teaches me, and I'm long enough at it, that on the contrary, in my native language, Gaelic, Dolanisha, Dolanolka, is a famous phrase, getting older and deeper into sin.
There's no human being who, if they're honest, doesn't say the same thing.
But the difference between the men and the boys is that that's, you know, somebody has said, and it's true, between the ages of 35 to 55 or 65, it's a corridor of youth.
And at the end of that, and towards the end of it, we begin suddenly to realize certain lessons we have learnt, if the grace of God is working in us.
And you see, God has no form.
unidentified
We say he, because that's the way the Bible speaks, and that's the way we talk in human language.
Is it possible to perform an exorcism on somebody without their consent?
In other words, in worst-case scenario, could somebody literally be tied to a bed or bound in some way by family members and have somebody like you called in?
Yes, because, I mean, if we suspect that John X is possessed, if we have strong reasons for thinking so, unless we have John's general consent or his particular consent, and John is over 18, he's an adult, we just can't aggress him and tie him down.
We have done this on previous programs, Father, but if you would describe for the audience, before we get to the phones, exactly what a real exorcism is like.
Because you see, there is an entire theory and belief behind it all, Art.
It is that as long as this cosmos endures, as it is, demons have a certain liberty, a certain freedom, and they roam on what is called, figuratively, the middle plateau.
Once this cosmos ends, and there's only heaven, then there's only hell.
And they go back there permanently, and it's more intense suffering for them.
They never want to go back there.
They'd rather roam around the world.
And you have examples of that in the Christian Bible.
The demons who possessed these people that Christ exorcised, they said, please, please put us into these swine.
Do you remember the incident of the Gerosene swine art?
It was a hog farm, obviously.
It was a whole flock of hogs.
And they possessed these poor animals and they all rushed into the sea over a cliff.
They didn't want to be sent back to hell to suffer, just to suffer.
They wanted to roam the world on the middle plateau.
But it's a whole mentality which the exorcist must have because he's got to understand who he's up against.
Remote viewers, psychics, people who claim powers and insight that others do not have, are they dabbling and moving within and joining with this middle plateau?
And it's a very dangerous thing because you can be locked into it and eventually end up possessed, certainly obsessed.
And it is a very tempting one for many people who have psychic gifts.
I had an interview with somebody there a few days ago and he wants out of it.
He originally entered it voluntarily because it corresponded to his sensitivity and he felt that he could get certain wisdom from it.
Now he knows it's slavery and he wants out of it and he will get out of it too.
So the middle plateau is a very dangerous thing and people who use Ouija boards, who do transcendental meditation, who engage in spiritual seances Properly so-called, who indulge in black wicca or in direct cultivation of demons, they are entering willy-nilly the middle plateau, and it's very dangerous.
I'm a 48-year-old woman, and I grew up in a couple of orphanages, and I had Christianity thrown at me my entire life.
And there's one question that no minister or priest has ever been able to, ever, ever been able to answer for me.
And this is why I feel that I am an atheist.
And that is that I have a daughter that's an adult.
I love her unconditionally.
And I assume that my ability to love her unconditionally is minute to what would be God of the universe, the Creator, if there is one.
And with my daughter, I would never say to her, if you don't love me, I'm going to send you to hell.
And that's what I understand that Christianity is all about and that God of Christianity is about.
That if we don't love him and obey him, then we're going to be sent to this horrible, horrible place and suffer eternity in the hells and the belly of fire.
And that's one, I don't understand that, Father Malachi.
The essence of it, it would take a very long time to go through it all, but the essential is this.
That there are certain things which please him because they conform to his godly nature and his godly will.
And by the way, I'm sure you observe most of them.
The laws, moral laws, the ethical laws.
Honesty and purity and compassion and gentleness.
And, you know, living a decent life and loving your neighbor, not doing obvious harm to anybody, really, except incidentally or in a fit, but not as a policy, not being an evil person.
And one senses that from the accents you're using and the words you're using, that's what he requires as his practice.
And if somebody lives like that, there is no way they can go to hell.
There is no way they can be punished because they are fulfilling his will.
Now, there's this about it, that God is infinitely patient because he's God.
And he has an individual knowledge of each person's soul and being.
He knows every thought and he knows the marrow of my bones.
And the point is that he measures his graces to suit what I need.
But there is no way on earth if I practice love of my neighbor and love of myself too, I don't mutilate myself, I don't desecrate my body, desecrate my soul with evil or my body with excess, and I do my duty and I live a normally good life, there is no way on earth that God would even dream of punishing me with hellfire.
No way at all.
But that's really, I've cut it down to the essentials, ma'am.
Well, then, yeah, everything that I'm fixing to say kind of relevates, or excuse me, it kind of goes with everything that you've been talking about the last few days with Bible codes and so on and so forth with what you were talking about today.
Well, anyways, my best way to describe it with which I think his name was Steve, who he was talking about a few days ago.
But as most Wiccans find a place that's comfortable for themselves, I've started a couple of covens, and that was one of the main things that I would present to the people is for them to find a place for them that was comfortable.
And in Wicca, we really don't have black and white.
And they end up in the ditch, as we say, figuratively speaking.
And there's also behind it all, too, ma'am, there's this fact that there has been let loose upon us some other forces that help dream weaving of an evil kind.
And we're trying to combat that, and that's very difficult.
It's very difficult.
It accounts for an awful lot of insomnia.
It accounts for an awful lot of disorder in families and disruptions and divorces.
It accounts for a terrific amount of damage.
unidentified
Oh, yes.
And I've also noticed there's a lot of imps running around lately.
A lot of the scandal that is plaguing the Catholic Church today, you know, children, it isn't a coincidence that this is happening all over the country and why the church is paying big money to keep it quiet.
We're paying an offer, and we've paid since 1985, I think, the Catholic Church in America has had to shell out not quite a billion dollars in out-of-court settlements.
If we knew why this plague has descended upon us in the States, just in the United States of America alone, we'd be very happy because then we could do something about it.
We don't quite know.
Now, by the way, it doesn't involve more than 4% to 6%, and it's the official figure, of the clergy.
But the damage is huge.
And the reports we're getting about Europe and Ireland in particular are very discouraging.
The same plague, which I call it, is afflicting those places, beginning to afflict them.
But now that it's due to vampirism, that's something new in my horizon.
I wanted to relate two experiences to you, and I would sort of like your thoughts on it.
One was a number of years ago, I was involved in, I was experimenting a little bit with shamanism, and I had a rather negative experience.
I tried to induce a shamanic trance.
And shortly thereafter, a large blue and red bird with a very long beak appeared before me about three feet away.
And its beak started pulling, like the best way I can describe it, is a stream of energy from my chest.
At which point, I invoked the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the bird disappeared.
And my question on that would be, what your thoughts on shamanism were generally, and if it is purported to be a positive endeavor by those who practice it, why I ended up having this negative confrontation?
That's one story that I'd like to comment on.
The other is That my father passed away about four years ago under very painful circumstances after long, protracted illness.
And about two months ago, I had a visitation from him.
And it was amazing because I wanted to ask him a million questions about how he died and some family conflicts that had arisen from the circumstances of his death.
And he said, I don't have time to talk, but just be true to yourself, be happy with who you are, and I'll talk again later.
If it were merely a question of being a concoction of their own needs in their own mind, that would be one thing.
At least it's innocent.
The difficulty is this, that our friend here from Albuquerque, who's been very frank talking to us, he endeavored to practice shamanism.
And shamanism is an open door to the middle plateau.
And that middle plateau is dominated by spirits not friendly to our souls.
And they can deceive us.
And we can be hoaxed without our knowing it.
And especially when it's a question of somebody we love, like my father, or my mother, or my sister, my brother, my friend, my wife, my husband, I can be deceived.
And there's only one sure way of avoiding being hoaxed.
And that is submitting it all to a very sharp rule of discernment, which would take a long time to explain right here and now, but it's spiritual discernment.
Because anything touching the spirit, and I say also to our friend in Albuquerque, anything touching the human spirit, anything invading my soul, my will and intellect, that's how my soul had got to, is of prime importance because I'm sitting duck for angels and devils.
And I must make my choice.
And I must be careful what friends I make.
And I would advise him to be very careful about practicing shamanism.
He had one experience which was a warning to him, and obviously he's protected.
Otherwise, that bird would have tore his heart out.
Back in the 70s, I used to take a lot of her leucogenics acid.
Yep.
And one night a vampire was in the corner of the living room up by the ceiling and hit me like in seconds.
And ever since then, I've had a form of sexual obsession that, I mean, I've even, I've studied the Bible, but Father Malachi know the verse where you're ever learning, but you never come to the knowledge of God.
Father, how does somebody know that this may be a question for after we come back from the break, but how does one know that you have found the right kind of priest?
can't stay alive From the Kingdom of Nineveh, across the country, around the world, and throughout the universe, this is Coast to Coast A.M. with Art Bell on the CBC Radio Network.
Dr. Malachi, I believe in both the dark and light and that they should be together and not split apart like the Catholics have done.
And I just wondered, in your studies, I study astrology and not the esoteric kind.
And at the time of change, like the one that happened just before Jesus was born, there were big floods for a few years, and about ten times as many years there were droughts.
And I wondered if in your studies there has been reference to that, because most of the references were lost when the library was burned at Alexandria.
And they lived between 100 AD and 600 AD, taken those as cliché dates.
And their writings are considered to be very valuable for Christianity.
And they do speak about such things.
They speak about such climactic changes, climatological changes, I should say, and calamities of various kinds with water and earthquakes, and mainly floods and volcanoes.
I think that both are a natural part of our environment.
And in fact, I'm really worried about some tendencies with the new age.
I'm glad people are trying to get in touch with themselves.
But I'm sure the doctor knows that a lot of the people who are learning channeling from other people who don't really know anything seem to have more contact with things that the Catholics would call incubus and succubus than they are with having contact with anything that would give us valid information.
And I just, in that vein, I wonder if he's had to cure a number of people who, well, there are people who say, once you open the door, it's really hard to get it shut.
And I think these people in their innocence and wanting to see just the good and the light and the happy aren't looking at what they're doing.
There is a lot of innocent mistakes there, which end up in a lot of pain.
I think that if we could have a long, long conversation, which we can't have tonight anyway, when you say you work with the dark and the light, you know, those are traditional things within Christianity itself.
And by the way, there's a balance beyond the union of dark and light, which I'm sure you have come to or will come to.
unidentified
Sir, when I was a child, the people who worked with the person that was the missionary in our town who had been to India accused me of being Bodhisattva.
I kind of look at everything because I'm supposed to be here to look at the whole picture.
Well, lycanthropy, the definition you'll find in most dictionaries, is the delusion a person suffers that they believe that they're either a wolf or a werewolf.
And my name is Tiziana, and I'm a first-time caller, and it's an honor to speak with both of you.
Thank you.
My question for Father Martin is I needed some advice on how to respond to my five-year-old's daughter's question.
And namely, she came to me and asked me with quite a serious and inquisitive tone and said, Mom, why when I'm alone, I feel like there's someone watching me?
And additionally, before she even asked me the question, I just intuitively knew that she was going to ask me that specific question.
And maybe I could attribute this to the fact that I'm also quite sensitive, and I've had episodes where I've been intuitive or psychic, whatever you want to name it.
And I also have felt that I have been watched or I feel someone's watching me.
And in particularly, I felt it strongly when my sister had passed away.
And it was during a traumatic time of my life.
And what I did during those times is just naturally, I just kind of called that to God, you know, to Jesus.
And I felt that ease.
Now, I don't think that my daughter is experiencing the same thing as I am.
And when she asked me this question, I didn't want to put words in her mouth.
And I was kind of like caught off guard.
And I told her to describe to me what it is that she was feeling.
Was this an animal?
Was it a person?
And she kind of like tried to grasp for words.
And she thought, and she goes, well, I think it could be my garden angel.
And I says, well, you know, your garden angel is there to protect you, and it's there to guide you.
And what do you feel?
Does it talk to you?
She goes, no, I just feel like I have to run and I'm afraid.
Yes, there's been an illness with an aunt, and also my brother has just been diagnosed with cancer.
And so I guess I thought maybe she's just feeling all the stresses of what's going on.
But she has been coming into sleep in my bed after she's five years old after a long period of time.
And I thought, hmm, I could tell she's probably stressed about something.
And I don't know if I should take this seriously or if it's just a fluke or could she possibly be feeling, because she's very sensitive, and she's extremely bright.
It has always been condemned by Christianity from the very start.
Because the ancient healers, pre-Christian, and then at the same time, in early Christianity, the Roman and Greek healers used to practice this sort of healing and substitute healing, as we call it in the books.
And it's always been condemned by Christianity as wrong.
Just wrong because you don't choose these things.
It's one thing to sacrifice your life for somebody else to save their life when they're drowning or when they're being bitten by a mad dog or whatever or killed by somebody cruel and you let yourself be killed in their place.
That's number one.
But in the matter of disease, and you're fiddling with God's providence in a way which is not holy, not good.
Christianity has always condemned it, substitute healing.
It's just that we find out that that's what happens.
It's always been condemned as Christianity as something that shouldn't be done.
And my very Christian instinct, my Christian instinct goes against it.
And I know it's always been condemned.
It's not the way to go.
Why?
Well, the bigger problem is why God allows other things, like the birth of babies who are coke addicted and have AIDS when they did nothing except their parents.
From what she was saying, it seems to me that she was deserting the organization as such.
But if she honors Christ and honors his mother and prays and is a good person morally, she has no more left the church than I have.
But what she's talking about is the organization which she found abhorrent for some reason or other.
And of course, it's not, if she had said to me, no, I practice Wicca and I worship the devils or I worship idols or I worship this world and no, I don't have any belief or attachment to the Lord Jesus or to, as you call him, or the Virgin Mary or the angels, there would be a different story.
But you can't say you've left the church when you honor these people and when you live a moral life.
It's just she has some reason for saying that.
I know so many people out who will tell me, I absolutely hate the Catholic Church's organization, its clergy, its bishops, its garbage.
And then I find that they're very good people.
It's just that something bad hit them.
They were maltreated or unjustly treated or they were scandalized.
And when they go, somebody else must take care of him.
Well, his place is, I suppose, takes the place of that.
They asked Christ about somebody similarly afflicted in the gospel, and he said that such a person is the best, is one example of the way God lets things happen in this world.
And the people said, well, is it because of his father or his mother that he's so punished?
And he said, no, no, no.
It's to manifest the power of God.
It's a difficult thing to accept, but he has a place in the scheme of salvation.
unidentified
Okay, Father.
I'm also a surgical nurse.
Yes.
And you would not believe the horrors we see coming in with young children that have been abused.
All you can do, all you can do is, well, if you can restore them physically, that's one thing you can do.
But if they're like a little child with its back broken, I'm sure it died.
Yes, it did.
But then, at that stage, your faith must enter.
Because when I have come across children like that, for instance, to give you an example, if it doesn't shock everybody listening, I've had to, I had access to a child who had been sodomized, a little girl, by her daddy.
And she was just a year and a half, almost two years old.
But she had been baptized, of course.
What I do is I associate their sufferings, because she suffered.
I associate her sufferings with the sufferings of my Lord Jesus, who died for all sinners, in the hope that her sufferings can be turned to good use by Christ himself.
That's the only...
I have a whole list of them, by the way, which I recite every day.
The only thing is that this life is sad in several aspects, and we can't let that dominate because we have a glorious Savior, and we have a glorious God, and that he has allowed evil is one of the biggest mysteries we have to face.
We're going to make sure that you come upstairs with us all.
But the point is this, that when you get to heaven, when you are in God's presence, you are absorbed in Him.
And anybody or anything not absorbed in Him, once this cosmos has passed away, fades out of your existence, fades out of your memory, fades out of life.
Well, it does count because it's down here that I work out my salvation.
It counts.
Oh, yes, it counts, my goodness.
And that's one of the big, if I could say it, I don't want to be trumpeting this as triumphantly or invidiously, but one of the biggest differences between the early Protestants, at least, and Catholics, was this, that, as you know, Luther, for instance, would say that you can do nothing to save yourself.
You're justified by faith alone.
Whereas Catholics have always said, no, no, you merit.
You can merit punishment.
You can merit heaven.
And similarly, I must tell you, sir, that if I were in your place in the surgical wards, I would have a little baby family of about 3,000 already that I would have baptized with water, or at least baptized somewhere or other, and that I would have prayed to so that their sufferings would be united with the sufferings of my Lord Jesus, but that's the way I can save souls.
I thought of, as I listened to you describe a perfectly possessed person as someone who would not so actively be engaged in worship of the devil specifically, but might have cut a deal.
Yes, I take it, Arch, that the phrase you used just now, on earth, is just refers to the tri-dimensional existence that we know in our senses.
Yes, sir.
Okay.
Now, what impedes our minds understanding the answer to Daniel's question, Daniel from Austin's question, is the fact that our minds and our education has been geared, as it were, programmed on the idea of evolution.
Darwin's Evolution, the Darwinian idea of evolution.
And of course, it's a mythical idea and has nothing to do with reality and doesn't explain reality.
But it does, it's in our minds and it blocks our intelligence.
If you read, and I may seem to be rambling out, but I'm not really, if you read the first twelve chapters of Genesis, particularly the first six or seven of them, you will find that interlaced with the names and supposedly historical references,
there are phrases and sentences which suppose the existence of beings for which we have no names.
They call the sons of men and the sons of God, and the B'ne Lohim, as they call it in the Hebrew, and the daughters of men, etc., and the giants that lived in those days.
And the old Yavis writer, the old writers composing and putting this Bible together in the 9th century BC from the records they had were doing their best to make a coherent statement.
And all they could do was gather testimony.
What I was referring to was this, that it would seem, it will take a long time to explain it though, it would seem that the universe as we know it today, you and I and Daniel and the rest of us, is a reconstruction of a universe that was almost destroyed by the first phase of God's creation, namely the angelic world.
And the very form of our bodies, the very form of our bodies, is an ad hoc restoration by God.
And we won't have this sort of a body when we're in heaven.
We will have our bodies, but not this sort of a body.
Now, the reconstruction implies that the revolt of Lucifer and the angels that went with him, the Bible says one-third, but the Bible's numbers are just numerically interesting.
It says that they revolted and they almost destroyed the first handiwork of God.
And there was a restoration in view of the coming of Christ later on, much later on.
Now, what existed before that was destroyed by this terrible war, this terrible revolt by the first creatures that came from God's hands, whom we call angels.
Angel itself is an ad hoc name, as we say.
There's nothing specific about it at all.
And it's very hard to be specific about an angel.
But anyway, the beings that existed and the forms they took, we have no human words for it.
Those chapters of Genesis, the early chapters, they try to fix names like the sons of God, the B'nei Elohim, and the B'nei Haadam, and the daughters of men and the sons of God and the giants, etc.
They're all park names.
They also were at a loss because we would not recognize them as human in our sense of the word, because what is human for us is something with legs and arms and a belly and genitals and a head and arms and exiting from the birth canal of a woman.
But then what we're left with and where we can track it, but it's a difficult and a long tracking process, is this, that there is this middle plateau which is the remnant of the old original creation,
created material cosmos, and that on that plateau, Lucifer and his crowd still function and will until the last day of this cosmos when it's all blown away by the breath of Christ's mouth and only heaven and hell exist.
Now that may not be much of an explanation, but at least just the start, it's the first level of an expression or explanation of what I meant.
The analysis, the only analysis for the moment that satisfies me, satisfies what I have found anyway, is as follows.
You see, if you abuse a child, the child can take it one way or another.
Now, supposing the child is, say, four, five, something like that, or even six, but anyway, in that young age, out of infancy, but not quite in boyhood or youthhood.
If they take it badly, they can fall under the influence of the demon.
If they take it well, they can, they don't.
And what what's the what's the deciding factor?
Their free will.
And that's where there's an initial act of will.
I think that everybody who comes into existence in this world, sheer infancy is one thing, where you simply your mother is your world at her breasts or everything for you.
But once you start getting any knowledge, any appreciation of the world outside you as outside you, there comes a moment, some stark personal moment all by yourself when you make a decision.
And I think you make a decision between light and darkness.
There's a man called Jean-Paul Richter, a German writer, he's dead now, but he said that he was born in the Black Forest.
His father was a woodcutter, and they lived in a small hut.
And there was a pile of manure outside their door always, because his father had horses to drag the lumber.
And he went out one morning when he was two and a half, three, about two and a half or three years, and he stood and climbed on top of the manure just to look out, because it was an easy thing to climb.
And he heard the cock crowing, and he saw the first rays of sunlight over the tops of the pine trees.
And he heard himself say to himself, Ich bin I mech.
I am an I. I am a self.
I am me.
That sort of a moment of choice.
Well, I think that once you exercise free will, I'm sorry if I held the receiver badly out.
Because no matter how lovely a child is, no matter how pure it's born, no matter how unsullied its mind and will are, it still has what Christians call original sin, that is the lack of grace.
And once tempted to hit back at somebody hurting you, really tempts you to do so, puts you within the realm of the demon.
But it's a very, it's more problematic than the latency period, which is problematic in itself.
That early period between birth, after ensolment, birth, and then early infancy.
It hasn't been studied by churchmen intelligently, and it must be finally studied.
unidentified
One more quick question, Father.
How does the Catholic Church deal with a lot of the crimes going on out there?
I've noticed even with my wife, she gets pen pals that write to her through the book.
And there's quite a many children out there falling into the fantasy vampire whole phase there.
Yeah, the difficulty today in America, my friend, it's terribly hard to say how the church should behave or used to behave because belief in the devil, belief in positive evil, has fallen through the roofs in the Catholic Church today amongst the clergy.
And a lot of bishops simply don't believe in the devil, don't believe in positive evil.
I know that if I were to approve of capital punishment for a person who is an established murderer or murderess, that there is the question of justice.
I take your life deliberately, maliciously, knowingly, I must restitute.
Just as if I steal $100 of yours, the judge is going to say to me, give him back his $100.
And I add a fine to it, but give him back his, you must make restitution.
I think today, I think a lot of our trouble is we forget who we are and what we're striving towards.
I wondered if you had heard, if you had any comment on the 30-something volumes the Vatican has recently released and has held back since the 30s from Luisa Piccaretta called The Books of Heaven.
The main problem being the total disintegration of the organization, the Pope, Bishop, Priest, Nun, Diocese.
That structure is decading, is obsolescing, and is not reviving.
The structure of the church is up for grabs.
And she doesn't touch on that.
She does talk about the spirit of the church, and she does talk about the call to holiness and the reasons for striving for holiness and the rules for it.
But the precise difficulty we're passing through, she doesn't deal with.
unidentified
Is it true that she lived on the Eucharist for 60-some years alone?
My first introduction when I was down in Missouri was that somebody told me that the Pope was the Red Lady of the Mediterranean, that we were plotting the downfall of all the nations.
unidentified
Well, there's a bunch of things to think about other than that.
For just a couple of simple fast things, the changing from the Sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday is like a big one that just really jumps out at me.
And the changing of the Fourth Commandment from remember the Seventh-day Sabbath day to just remember the Sabbath day.
It is appealing, but I'll tell you what happened to me is I had a dream one night that the preacher came to my house and was going to talk to me and the wife and son.
He said, pardon me while I go in the other room and get ready.
When he came back, he had this thing around his neck, and that was all he had on.
It concerns the Vatican's intense, almost obsessive interest with astronomy.
In Arizona, the Vatican, despite environmental obstacles that would not normally be overcome by anybody else, in conjunction with the University of Arizona, muscled its way onto Mount Graham and constructed an observatory.
Can you enlighten me at all as to why they have such an obsessive interest in astronomy?
They've always had an observatory, not always, it's based from about the 9th century AD.
But there's intense interest now in astronomy because of the contents of some of the secret revelations they claim were made in this century about the near future, involving stars, involving astronomical data.
It's about as general a statement as I'd be allowed to make.
Nick, we touched on this in an earlier hour with another caller, and you probably heard that part of it.
It's again, it's the analysis of what really happened in the beginning.
In the beginning.
And as I said to Art and the caller then, we have no names.
You see, look, when you and I want to describe something, even when we talk about, say, the men from Mars or little green men landing in Rothwell, New Mexico in 1947, we always configure them with legs and arms and a nose and eyes, some sort of body like ours, you know?
We're extremely limited, actually, in what we can imagine because we have either got men, human beings, or we've got animals.
But the difficulty is that there does seem to be suggestive evidence that before the human race peopled this particular patch of the cosmos,
there were other beings, not human, no, but we have no faces, we have no way of describing their appearance, we have no names for them, because we can't configure them physically.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, well, you know, the difficulty, and the Nephilim is one of the mysterious and the Neil of him, the sons of God.
They're all very, very shadowy figures in those first chapters of Genesis.
unidentified
Right.
Well, if God populated this planet with humans, is there the possibility that Satan or Lucifer populated other planets with their concept?
And could they possibly be the aliens we're encountering at this time?
Any information we have, which is very sparse anyway, any evidence we have, Nick, about this, restricts living beings to this galaxy and this particular planet in this galaxy.
So, but that doesn't mean that that's complete, but as far as we know, and then as regards the beings we think we're now, the UFOs, as we call them, and I'm not saying that derisively, like the green men from Mars or something like that, I'm saying it, but I think that so far the evidence is that it's demonic in origin.
It is that the function of the original angels created like that, they were the first wave of creation, it was to serve and to govern the cosmos of man.
All right, let me try and phrase it this way, Father.
If Mount Graham were to suddenly detect something, some sort of ship, some sort of something headed toward Earth that was unambiguously a craft, not of Earth, they would assume that automatically then to be demonic?
You see, Art, I must sort of show my colors in one sense.
We do not know yet, and probably we'll have to wait until eternity to find out, we do not know the extent of the damage done by the revolt against God.