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July 11, 1997 - Art Bell
03:02:08
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Exorcism - Fr. Malachi Martin
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♪♪♪ You're listening to a rebroadcast of Coast to Coast AM with
Art Bell.
All right, uh, here he is, Father Malachi Martin.
Father?
Good morning, or good evening, depending on your time zone.
That's right, time zone.
Time zone.
We're all over the place.
You sound very good.
You sound in good shape, Art.
I don't know how you managed to remain all so chipper.
Uh, well, it's simple.
I think it's just like you, Father.
We're both doing what we enjoy.
Yes, I suppose that is the secret.
I remember the last time I saw you in public was, um, Jimmy Stewart, he said he was paid to do what he loved to do.
So this is the case of the same thing, I suppose.
Tell me this, on your mind you had something about asking me about my background and training and that sort of business.
That's right.
There have been a lot of inquiries, apparently, because you're a very public person, about your background and your training.
How you came to the priesthood and what your current status is, so instead of my reading a bio, why don't you just go ahead and tell us?
Yes, I don't want to bore people, Norfolk.
You can always ask me a question if I'm obscure on any point.
It's quite short and brief in its own way, except I'll try and fill in the details where it's necessary to give a better picture.
I was born in Ireland, of course, in Kerry, in Ireland.
Uh, way back in 1921.
Father, I'm going to ask you to get a little bit away from the phone, if you would.
Okay, what about this?
Much better.
Okay, there's a question about locating that speaker.
Um, and I joined the Jesuits, the Jesuit Order, the Order of the Jesuits.
I joined it in 1939, just as war was being declared.
In fact, I did it three days after we heard Uh, Prime Minister Chamberlain of England declared war on Germany.
And Germany had attacked Poland.
And, uh, I remained in Ireland for the duration of the war, uh, because we couldn't get out.
It was dangerous to travel.
Uh, and, uh, during that time I got a university degree in Semitic languages.
Uh-huh.
And, uh, oriental art and archaeology and history.
And, um, after the war I taught I went to philosophy for three years through the Jesuit rigorous training, and we went to philosophy for three years and got a degree from that.
Then they had me teach little boys French and Greek for a couple of years.
Every Jesuit had to undergo that teaching experience, because if you can teach Greek and Latin to little boys who just want to get out of class, you have learned to teach.
After that, they sent me to Belgium.
To a place called Louvain, where I studied theology for four years, and where I was ordained a priest, a member of the Jesuit order, and I spent another three years getting a doctorate in Semitic languages, Oriental art and archaeology, and history, and I did a special work published in two volumes on the Dead Sea Scrolls, and I spent a lot of time in The Middle East, and studying the actual scrolls themselves.
And I became an expert in paleography, that is, ancient handwriting.
They all sound very boring, but it was very exciting.
No, it's really not boring at all.
It was very, very exciting.
And then they brought me back to Rome, to a place called the Biblical Institute.
That's the central part of the Vatican, which trains professors of Bible.
And I became a professor with tenure of Hebrew and paleography, and New Testament and Old Testament, and of one or two other languages like Aramaic, which is used in the Bible, and was the language to which Jesus spoke.
But I arrived just down there in 1957, 58, and the old Pope, Pacelli, passed the 12th,
had died, and his successor was John XXIII.
And his great collaborator was a Jesuit called Father Baer, Augustin Baer, a German Jesuit who lived in Rome, had been in Rome for years.
And he took a shine to me, and his room was just beside mine in the Jesuit house.
And at that time, John XXIII was Very keen on establishing a new relationship with the Jewish community.
So, he brought me over to John XXIII, who was very keen to have some young man, and I was in my thirties, some young man who was trained in Talmud, which I was, and in Bible and in the Biblical languages.
Because John was setting up a huge network of relationships with Jewish organizations in Europe and in America.
And then he was going to hold a thing called the Second Vatican Council, which met finally in 1962 and lasted until 1965, lasted all three years.
John died in the middle of it in 1963, but his successor, Paul VI, kept it up, and I was functioning all that time.
However, I had gone to my superiors in 1959, 1960, and said, look, I'm not satisfied the way things are going, and they said, why?
Well, I said, because I don't agree with some of the policy decisions being made, and I don't agree the way these decisions are being implemented.
May I, if I can, stop you there and ask you a few specifics.
What did you disagree with?
I disagreed with changes, modernizations, of the liturgy.
And I disagreed also with the general trend in Rome at that institute was to diminish the age-old tradition about the nature of Scripture as being the Word of God.
The dominant school of thought was a Germanic school Which held that much of the Bible could be explained as a form of literature, as a form of popular myth-making.
Somebody's story.
Yeah.
And that could, of course, if it were pushed, could affect the central beliefs that I had as a Catholic.
Of course.
Namely, the divinity of Jesus, the fact of the resurrection from the dead, And hell, heaven, and purgatory, and everything, finally.
Because if you begin to throw doubt on the gospel stories, the historicity of the gospel stories, you're in trouble.
And indeed, today, many Roman theologians will not state categorically that the resurrection of Jesus is a historical fact.
They say, yes, it took place, but They won't call it a historical fact.
It's what's called a higher school, a school of higher criticism.
So I couldn't agree with all that.
And then there were other disciplinary matters, too.
I thought that what had made the Jesuit order so successful was its inner discipline, and that was being loosened.
But everything was being loosened in those days, Art.
There was a spirit sweeping through the Roman Catholic Church as regards the old rules of the old discipline that resembled a tornado at its height.
So anyway, they decided that all right, if you want to go, you can go.
But I was a Jesuit with four vows.
There was poverty, and celibacy, or chastity, As you call it, and obedience, and then a fourth vow of obedience to the Pope.
There's a special core of Jesuits who have that fourth vow of obedience.
It really means the Pope can call you in any morning and say, please depart for Tahiti and stay there.
And do such and such and such and such, and you can't ask for your ticket or for your support.
You just do what the Pope says.
Let's see if I've got it right.
Poverty, chastity, obedience.
And a special vow to the Pope of obedience, a special vow of devotion.
Uh-huh.
So I went to Paul VI, who was the Pope then, when I decided, well, this is 1964, and he said, all right, if you have to leave, you have to leave.
I can dispense you from your vows.
Which ones do you want to be dispensed from?
So I said, well, I've got to earn my living, Holy Father, and for that I'll need to Not have a vow of poverty, because my vow of poverty means I can't earn any money or keep any money.
And he said, all right.
And I said, then I have to abolish my vow of obedience, because I don't want to obey my superiors any longer.
And he said, all right.
I said, I want to keep my vow of celibacy, because I'm a celibate, and I want to remain celibate.
The vow of obedience to you will be immediately, automatically dissolved.
That's canon law, if I leave the Jesuit order.
And he said to me, well, do you want me to find you a bishop?
At the present moment, there are almost 2,000 bishops in Rome at the Council.
I'm sure several of them would like to have you in their diocese.
I said, no, I don't.
I don't want to be under a bishop.
So he said, well, they won't like that.
He's very funny, really.
He had a sense of humor all his own.
We used to call him El Gufo, because he looked like an owl with his face.
El Gufo.
And he said, well, they won't like that.
You're not going to have a bishop.
Where are you going to get your authority from?
I said, you will have to give it to me, Holy Father, or your successors by some special arrangement.
But I want to be a priest.
I want to be celibate.
I want to write.
And I want to have very active in TV and radio and lecturing and talking and confessing.
And there's a storm coming over the church in England, which you yourself are always talking about these days.
And the apologist was always talking about the storm let loose, like a tornado.
Yes.
And he finally ended up by saying, as you know in public, a couple of years later, the smoke of Satan has entered the sanctuary of the church.
We are now invaded.
Anyway, so we talked about that, and he said, all right.
But he said, then, what you are asking for is this.
There's a form which you know of called laicization.
And he said, many people make the mistake of thinking that a priest like you who undergoes laicization becomes a layman.
And he said, as you know, that's false.
You never, never become a layman.
Once you're a priest, you're a priest forever.
But laicization merely concerns who has authority over you.
And you want me to arrange it, So that no bishop and no religious superior has control over you.
And he said, we'd have to make some special arrangements about that.
Because he said, somebody must have some check on you.
So he made those special arrangements, and there's always somebody in Rome to whom I refer my life to and discuss my money with.
They don't ask for money, but they must know what I do with it.
And they can always check on what I state in public if they don't think it is doctrinally safe.
So he said you won't be... You see, Rome is run by ministries.
They're not called ministries in the Vatican, they're called congregations.
And there's a ministry or a congregation for the bishops, and it's called the Congregation for Bishops, and there's a ministry or congregation for clergy, and that's for clergy, like priests, And so on and so forth.
So, you are still a priest.
Oh, yes.
You are simply a priest now who is allowed to write books and derive income from those books.
That's right, but I'm not under any of the congregations directly, because I don't belong to a bishop and I don't belong to a diocese.
So you're a renegade priest?
No.
No, no, no, no.
In fact, a lot of people would like it if I were, because Well, I guess I was conferring an honor upon you in a way.
length of time and talking so many people who were so much or so
from the commercial radio they would like to define from the way but i'm really known
to be a party that the conservative
and you know me as that are well that i guess i was uh... i was conferring an
honor uh... but i i i i i fully realize uh... you uh...
uh... you're a very conservative uh... a priest and in that sense uh... in light
of today's church you are sort of a renegade That's right.
In that sense, yes.
But sometimes it puzzles Catholics, because they're used to priests who are either members of religious orders, or who are under a bishop in a diocese.
And I'm not either of those things.
And no congregation in Rome would claim authority over me.
But I'm not alone in this matter now.
There are well over a thousand priests throughout the church in the same status as I occupy.
But it's very hard to explain to people, because once they hear that you've been laicized, they say, oh, well, you're a layman, though.
But you're not, actually.
Or we're not.
I'm not.
So in every sense of the word, you are still officially a priest.
Oh, yes.
There's no doubt about that, whatever.
It allows me a certain great latitude, but it also puts restrictions on me, because I can't back every political cause I'd like to back, because there are limitations on me for that.
I don't think priests should be politicking.
That makes me want to ask you about your political views.
I have views, of course.
I'd be a dumbbell if I hadn't got views.
But to fling one's weight into a political fight, which I sometimes would love to do, I restrain myself, because I think, between you and me, I think that the one thing Jesus dislikes is politicking clergy, because he had a lot of trouble with it in his day.
Well, I have to frankly wonder about the entire process of politics.
In other words, to attain high office in this land today, Father, it seems as though you must be an accomplished prevaricator.
It seems to me that you cannot do it with clean hands.
I may be too condemnatory in that sense, although I'm not condemnatory.
I hear confessions all day and forgive sins as a Catholic priest.
As a human being, but it would seem that you've got to prevaricate, yes.
You have to speak out of two sides of your mouth.
You have to promise knowing you will not fulfill your promises, and you have to pretend you side with an issue because it's good for you for re-election.
Is that a sin?
Or would you say that even a good man trying to enter the political world to do good things... Yes.
Would have to do what he has to do to get where he wants to go, to do the good things he wants to do.
It's complicated, but I think it's quite clear what you're saying.
Well, I suppose that there are limits, you know.
There are certain exaggerations that are now allowed, which are understood to be exaggerations in a politician's mouth.
Father, hold on just a moment.
We're at the bottom of the hour, and we'll be right back.
Father Malachi Martin is my guest from New York City.
I'm Art Bell and this is CBC.
Back now to Father Malachi Martin in Manhattan.
Father?
I asked as a point in connection with what we were just talking about in the previous hour, and it's this, that you call me Father.
Yes, sir?
And the priests are normally called Father.
It has become the habit that if you're not called Father officially, since I have three doctors, I chose to be called Dr. Martin or Father Martin.
Many people have called me as that, and there's no difficulty with that, except, for instance, in the Archdiocese where I live in New York, the Archdiocese does not want any priest that's not part of the diocese, and I'm not part of the diocese, not to wear clericals.
Yes.
Brown collar and a black suit.
Yes.
Or not to be called father.
Officially.
But I just want to note that a lot of Catholics, they meet you for the first time and they find out you're a priest, but you're wearing a shirt and tie.
Well... They find that shocking.
Is it okay to call you father?
Oh, yes.
Good.
That's what I am and that's what I profess to be.
Good.
I'm just noting that small point as a consequence of the status I sought to get.
About politicking clergy, yes.
About politics itself.
It's a very, very trying affair for the soul, I think, because you've got to make so many compromises.
Well, yes.
And I don't want to launch into a big political discussion, but I'll say this about politics.
There was a day when I discussed it frequently, or even most of the time, on the radio.
And in the last years, Father, It seems like what they argue about and discuss in Washington is more and more irrelevant to our lives.
Me, too, it seems so.
To me, too, it seems so.
And that's why I'm not very interested, unless you want to discuss some political problem, case, situation.
Not me.
Not me either.
I don't find it interesting.
I find the majority of my fellow citizens, ordinary men and women, are not really exercised about it either.
They have other problems and other considerations.
And there's something new happening anyway out there, as we say, with the demographers.
There's something new happening to men and women.
There's a new situation in the minds that I don't think the politicians yet have tumbled to.
They don't know what's going on.
Well, I would join them with that.
I'm not sure I know either.
I just know we are at the edge of momentous change.
Yes, we are.
We are.
There is a change taking place, and nobody can formulate it quite accurately yet, and I suppose until it becomes a de facto situation, encased in laws and in practices and in the constitutional amendments, We won't know what it is, but there is a change taking place.
And I can characterize it in a certain way, but it won't be a complete characterization.
It's very hard to pin it down.
But there is a change.
When I interviewed you, Father, oh gee, it goes back at least a year, maybe a half a year at least, you made a statement that stuck in everybody's mind.
You said, this spring, watch the skies.
That's right.
There was a most remarkable event over Phoenix, Arizona.
Most remarkable.
Something gigantic hovered over that city to the point where Frances Barwood, one of the council women in Phoenix, called for an investigation.
A gigantic hubbub.
There have been things seen all throughout this spring.
In our skies that we normally do not see.
I wouldn't characterize them as alien spaceships or devils or weather inversions or flares or anything else.
Something is going on.
But there were these extraordinary phenomena.
Yes.
Well, Art, I'm very glad you've told me that because nobody else did.
Nobody brought it to my attention.
What I used to say And it still holds retroactively that if between the end of winter 97 and the end of spring 97 there were such signs in the skies then that heralded something very very awesome and something awesome and therefore fearful
Within, say, six or nine months of that time, certainly before winter of 1998 is over, and probably before this calendar year, 1997, is over.
And I still say it.
Father, you said you worked extensively on the Dead Sea Scrolls.
I did.
How much of the information in the Dead Sea Scrolls Well, the answer to the first question, Art, is very simple, and it is a needed statement.
There was, for quite a while, a constant rumor being repeated, especially in the popular press, That somehow or other, either Roman Catholic priests, or Jewish rabbis, or Jewish scholars, or some group anyway, had found certain scrolls, certain writings, from Wadi Gumran, that's the place in Jordan now, where the original writers of the Dead Sea Scrolls lived, a place called Ein Feshka, and that they, these
If they revealed these documents, they would upset every traditional view of Christianity and Judaism.
Now, we have examined every inch.
The truth is, we have examined every inch of every Dead Sea Scroll.
Every scroll produced in the scrollery, produced by the scribes, transcribing them by hand.
There is nothing extraordinary being kept from the public.
What is being kept from the public is the publication of all the documents, because it takes a terrific amount of time to decipher them, and to print them, and publish them, and translate them.
But nothing has been hidden by a cabal of scholars, Christian or Jewish, and it gives a very false impression.
That's the first thing to say, that it is all accessible.
It now is all accessible, and as time goes on, it will be more and more studied and illuminated by scholarship.
There are large, unpublished portions of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
There certainly are.
Sometimes they're not so much large and unpublished, but significantly, some things are small little scraps.
For instance, only in recent years, Art, have we found out That one scrap, I suppose it's about the size of the palm of my hand, which is certainly from the scrollery, and which certainly dates from about, oh, about ten years after Jesus died.
Presumably Jesus died by crucifixion in the year 33.
But this scrap, coming from the scrollery in Wadi Gumran, The Dead Sea Scrolls place, the monastery as we call it, has on its back a quotation from the Gospel of St.
Mark.
And that is revolutionary.
Because that shows that the Gospel of St.
Mark was circulating at that time.
That would be about the year 45 or the year 50 AD.
And that is revolutionary.
That mere small little fragment.
And so on, there are other surprises to come.
Now, there's one thing which we must keep in mind, though, and it's this.
The soil in Palestine, the soil in that part of the country, that part of the world, I should say, now it's mainly Israel, is a dry soil which preserves things.
Yes.
And I am certain, I will probably be playing a harp, I'm very hopeful about that part of my life, but I will be dead because I'm 76, but I think that in time, That land is going to yield ancient manuscripts.
They will be found by archaeologists and published.
And they will help revolutionize our entire concept of the Bible.
For instance, do you know we have no pre-exilic copy of the Bible?
What do I mean by that?
Well, as you know, the Jewish population of Palestine was led into exile in the year 594 by King Nebuchadnezzar.
That was the exile.
Mm-hmm.
To Babylonia.
We have no copy of the Bible dating from before that time.
No pre-exilic copy.
I am certain there are pre-exilic copies.
So it's like the missing link.
That's right.
And it's frightening the further we get away from those events, way back 2,000 years ago, 2,500 years ago, 3,000 years ago, the more we find out about it.
It's the inversion of history.
So that is coming.
Now then, about the significance of the scrolls themselves, they confirm everything we know about Judaism.
There's nothing in them which is specifically Christian at all.
At all.
At all?
At all.
There's nothing specifically Christian.
And you know, Jesus, when he was taken prisoner one night, the night before he died, he was being interrogated.
And one of his interrogators said to him, what have you been teaching in the streets?
Well, what's your doctrine?
And he came back very strongly.
Jesus never turned the other cheek, by the way, ever.
And at that same interview, by the way, somebody struck him across the face.
Somebody struck him.
He didn't turn the other cheek.
He turned on the man and said, why did you hit me?
If I've done something wrong, say so.
If I didn't, why did you hit me?
But anyway, Jesus answered the accusation that he was teaching doctrine, said, I'm sorry, I have never taught And then he uses an expression in Aramaic, and in Greek, we have it in Greek, which is normally translated as in secret.
Basord would be the Aramaic.
But basord is the term used in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the official documents of the group of people who were there, to indicate their special meetings, their professional gatherings.
So what he was telling his interrogator was, look, there are those fellas out there by Wadi Gumran, and they're revolutionaries.
They're Essenes, and they're zealots.
And they are your enemies, because they're revolutionaries.
But I don't belong to them.
I don't teach in their gatherings.
I don't frequent them.
So there are traces that Jesus knew about it.
Like that, in the New Testament, if you know how to read it.
But there's no, in the Dead Sea Scrolls themselves, there's nothing specifically Christian at all.
There's a lot that can be learned about the times in which Jesus lived and what people believed.
And I could spend the next three hours going through the New Testament pointing out where there's an incidence between Dead Sea Scrolls and the Gospels.
But that's not really relevant for the moment.
I want to ask you about something very recent on the horizon, Father.
There have been a number of people... There's a new book out by Mr. Drosnin called The Bible Codes.
And while I have not interviewed Mr. Drosnin, I have interviewed a man called Stan Tennant.
And he has, for 30 years, been working on the ancient Aramaic.
And claims to have, this is very interesting, to have deciphered, yes indeed, a code in the Bible, in ancient Aramaic.
Aramaic, I guess.
Aramaic, yes.
Thank you.
And he claims, a most fascinating discovery, that these codes translate into geometric patterns that if viewed ...actually allow, for example, in Genesis, one to enter a state of experiencing not just what is written in Genesis, but what actually occurred.
It's the most intriguing... I must read that book out.
I haven't read it yet.
And then he claims, of course, that some people have not come out of the experience as whole people anymore.
And that only those who are the most pure are able to have this experience.
Anybody can have it, but not anybody can come out of it totally sane.
Gee whiz, I didn't know that.
I must look at that book.
And I was wondering, I guess, have you heard about the publication?
I've heard about it.
I'll write the Bible quotes.
I've heard about it.
And indeed, there has always been a tendency, not more than a tendency, there's always been Habit, especially amongst Jewish scholars, Talmudic experts, to read their words of the Bible, which is mainly Hebrew, but some Aramaic, but mainly ancient Hebrew, to read them in such a way that they get a double meaning out of it, and a more profound meaning than the simple meaning we take from the historical parts of the Bible.
There's no doubt about that.
Art, have you heard about an art called Gematria?
No, what is that?
Gematria is, actually, it's a word used in the Talmud, the Jewish Talmud, but it comes from the Greek word Geometry.
But it's, Gematria is the use of the letters of words, say, in the first line of Genesis, it's Barashith, Barah, Elohim, Etashamayim, V'taharetz.
In the beginning God created heaven and earth.
Yes.
But they take each letter and they give it a value, a numerical value.
Yes.
And they translate those numerical values into other words, more profound than their statement, in the beginning God created heaven and earth.
It's called Gematria.
And sometimes the results are astounding.
There really are.
Astounding.
Do you consider it, then, possible, Father?
I consider this a possibility.
If you know something did happen, you'll find confirmation of it in Demetria.
But it's really a confirmation.
New revelations about God, new revelations about the evolution of mankind, new revelations about God's nature, about our destiny, And about holiness, and about the entire question of religious belief, no, I don't consider it reliable.
You must have it beforehand, but Gematria does provide a confirmation.
There are books published on this, and you have to know math very well, and nowadays you must be able to use a calculator, because you've got to run off and you calculate the value of a word.
Well, the man who published the work called The Bible Codes, Drautman, claims that it is predictive, that it is prophecy.
I find that explanation far less elegant than Mr. Tennant's, which is that these geometric patterns produced by The Bible Codes actually allow one to experience What is generally written in the King James Version, for example?
And that's a very elegant explanation indeed, and if true... I can't say it's something I could try, because I'm not nearly pure enough to try it, but... Nor me, nor I. I do not feel that either.
Then it goes against... I must say, I couldn't do it to the point of view of doctrine.
Because I don't believe that's the way I'm supposed to find God.
I'm supposed to find my belief.
I have a far more, what I would call an objective norm.
That's not to attack anybody as subjective.
But the difficulty is this, Art, that if I'm allowed to set up rules of interpretation, which I choose arbitrarily, Arbitrarily, because I'm just one single person.
And with that, I find out that I can predict such and such and such and such.
First of all, people must wait to see are those predictions fulfilled.
Yes.
Otherwise, it's a fake.
And while I'm waiting, I still am hanging on the subjective interpretation of one single individual.
And that I find very shaky, especially if I'm seeking guidance for concrete decisions.
Should I marry this woman?
Should I have children?
Should I invest in this business?
Should I believe this?
It's a shaky basis for concrete decisions I have to make.
Is it honest of me to conclude such and such a deal?
You know, and I need guidance.
I'm a moral being.
I can be very immoral if I haven't got guidance.
Indeed.
All right, Father.
Hold on.
We'll be right back to you after the top of the hour news.
It means you've got a pretty good break, so feel free to go and grab a glass of water or whatever and get comfortable, and we'll be back to you.
From the high desert, I'm Art Bell, and there will be an announcement.
I think we'll do it at midnight.
With regard to what's coming up in Phoenix this coming Monday.
If you get an opportunity, run up to the webpage at www.artbell.com and look at the live cam.
Take a look-see and see which thing.
♪♪ ♪♪
♪♪ ♪♪
♪♪ Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line.
That's 702-727-1295.
First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222.
Now, here again, Art Bell.
Well, good morning.
727-1295. First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222. Now, here again, Art Bell.
Well, good morning. My guest from Manhattan is Father Malachi Martin, and he'll be back in a moment.
Art Bell.
Back now to Manhattan and Father Malachi Martin.
Father, this August... Again, I'm going to remind you to stay a little bit away from your phone, if you would.
Is that better?
Oh, infinitely.
Yes, sir.
I'll do that religiously, I hope.
Religiously.
Father, this October, I'm going on a trip which is going to take me to Rome.
I've never been to Rome.
I've never been to the Vatican.
And I'm going to go to the Vatican.
What should I see?
Well, that provokes an awful lot of thoughts in my mind, Art.
And entre nous, between you and me, let me provide you with one or two names to go and see when you do go there.
Oh?
And if you're to give me your dates.
But I will talk to you separately about all that.
All right.
All right.
But apart from that completely, There is so much to be seen there that my one main advice to you is to make a choice beforehand.
Because you can't stay there forever.
As a matter of fact, I'll only be in Rome for two days.
Well then, in two days, there are certain things you can see and are worth seeing, and that we pay the time put into it.
You can see St.
Peter's, And you can see the Baskin Museums, the main museums, in one day.
Less than one day.
In one good outing organized by some agency.
There are many good ones in Rome, and there are many good ones here that are organized and in Rome for you.
Now, if I were to use your name, that would not get me into the secret archives, would it?
Well, if you use it with certain men, whose names I'll give you, yes.
Oh my!
Get you a visit there.
It's a fantastic thing.
Do you know there are seven miles beneath the surface of Rome?
Seven miles?
You enter this thing, and when you enter it, the light goes on, and as you move through it down along the passageways, the light behind you goes off and the light ahead of you goes on.
It's a fantastic thing.
It's a fantastic affair.
What I would give to be able to see that.
You can.
You can see it all right, but in a short visit though, you just look at it and you pass on because you haven't got the time.
Right.
But you can see it.
And then there are various other parts of Rome which should be seen, but the main one would be Peter's Basilica and some of the main Vatican museums because you've never seen such magnificence and such art.
Well, I'm looking forward to it.
Oh, it's a marvelous thing.
It's simply marvelous.
And Rome has some aura which exists no place else.
They say, non si parte di Roma.
Nobody ever leaves Rome unless you've been there.
That's true.
But before you go, I must know your dates.
I mean, before you go to Rome.
Oh, indeed.
I will let you know.
I'll be in Rome, actually, I believe, October 2nd.
Well, no, that's wrong.
Now, let me get back to you on that.
Actually, we can talk separately, but we have all the time in the world.
Alright, here's a fact I want to read you.
We're going to get down to some hard stuff here.
Dear Art, I'm sure the Good Father would agree that belief in God must come from one's own faith.
Then, would it not be true that faith is necessary for one to believe that demons also exist?
I personally believe that his God, meaning your father, Or any god does not exist.
To me, it's all a fairy tale.
So, would my non-belief of the angel and demon, god and devil, heaven and hell dogma, mean that I am one whose body cannot be possessed?
And if so, what does that say about that particular theology?
So I guess, number one, would somebody of his sort be somebody whose body could not be possessed?
No.
No, his body can be possessed.
His belief or disbelief is no guarantee his body won't be possessed or can't be possessed.
But that doesn't mean it will be either.
We tried to create the profile of a possessible person art.
We've tried it since 1970.
And there is no profile.
There is no profile.
No, it's a random thing happening.
Rich, poor, good, evil, male, female, homosexual, heterosexual, educated, uneducated.
It doesn't make any difference.
That's not the norm, apparently.
We don't know what the norm is.
It looks to us like completely random choice.
Because, Art, between you and me and the Holy Spirit, I know very naughty people, too, in New York.
I mean, people who have morals that I can't share.
I know mafia people.
I've come across my share of these people in many walks of life, but they're not possessed.
They're just very naughty.
Actually, it's a very good question.
There are, as you point out, many naughty people.
It's a very kind word.
How do you delineate between the very naughty and the possessed?
Well, the very naughty are usually terribly honest about their naughtiness.
High class.
Paul Gough, who's literally a prostitute, will tell you honestly, who's let her hair down, that she is that.
Mafia soldier, who is on vacation over here from the West Coast because he's done something over there and he's in retirement for the moment over here, I'm citing people I know, they'll explain exactly what happened.
In fact, one of my first contacts as a priest in New York was with a mafia soldier who had been shot up.
and needs absolution and anointing, or he's going to die.
But that's one kind. The other kind, the possessed kind, is something very different.
And then there's the various stages of possession.
There's a very different thing. The phenomena is different.
The behavior is different.
The things surrounding them are different. The atmosphere, the smell, the behavior, the look, the language.
Father, does possession come upon a person slowly, in stages, or does it come all at once?
Slowly and in stages.
It's like any addiction.
Like any addiction.
It becomes... For instance, we're dealing now with a new generation art, really.
They're always 20-somethings or 30-somethings.
Very few, 40s.
They're in their 20s and 30s, and the situation is generally the same as the young man who came to me about 15 years ago and said, Look, Father, I wanted such-and-such, and such-and-such, and such-and-such.
And I made a pact with the devil.
I said to him, if you really are Satan, and if you have power, give me this.
And then he said, I got it.
Now he said he won't let me go.
And he did it slowly, and then I inquired into how it happened, and his mind got used to the idea of asking for help, and for really a leg up.
And he got the leg up.
in today's present, succeeded tremendously in his profession,
and then he found that his mind was locked, and his will was locked,
and he wasn't free. He wasn't free to love, he wasn't free to choose, and finally he wasn't free to die.
Father, there are many people who have, at one time or another,
let it cross their mind.
Let me have this, let me succeed in this, let me do this, and I will do it to sell my soul, whatever.
Now, how does one know whether one actually has made a pact with the devil or one has just had a fleeting, horrid little thought that went away?
It's a very good question.
And those to whom it has happened will know exactly what I'm talking about.
There is this lock they find on their will, on their will.
And there's the control of their mind, which they lose.
It's not that they go all hairy or they lose it, as we say.
But it is that they find that their mind is restricted in certain ways, and their will They cannot do certain things.
They cannot exercise compassion.
They cannot, um, they can't desire certain things.
They can't really desire their wife.
Um, or their husband.
If the woman is a question.
It's the peculiar lock on the will.
And that's generally what sends them, the ones that are saved, sends them running for a priest or an exorcist.
What happens in some cases is that they go further into it, and they're completely programmed and controlled.
And then you have perfect possession, out of which I have never seen any person emerge.
Never?
Never.
I haven't seen them.
I'm only 70 years old.
So it is not, sir, the classic possession that we all I recall from The Exorcist, not that, but a more perfect... It's a perfect possession.
You see, the classical form is the person who makes themselves very obnoxious in their behavior.
And they're really like a child.
When a child is hungry, an infant who can't talk, they bang their heads on the ground.
They pull themselves around.
They protest.
And they're saying, I'm hungry, or I'm dirty, or I'm thirsty.
That's one form.
Something can be done about that.
When they're perfectly possessed, they don't ask for any help.
They issue any help.
How many people, Father, do you think are in that condition?
Let's just talk about America right now.
Forget the rest of the world.
On a percentile basis?
Sure.
A minimal crowd.
A minimal set of people.
By minimal, what do I mean?
Well, we're at 260 million, isn't it, or something like that?
Yes.
I'm trying to make a proportion between the number I've known and the general population.
I suppose about 10 million.
10 million.
If I'm in my mind, I'm calculating the proportion of people I've been with in the whole field.
Well, here's a tough question for you.
Would we Would we, generally, if we could see these 10 million people, would we find that they are powerful?
They're successful?
None of them are obscure.
None of them are phasers.
None of them are without respect and means.
A lot of them are in high places.
And as Charles II said about his ministers, the higher they go, the higher they climb, But that's the very worst possible scenario for the world.
These are the people who are shaping policy?
Well, that is the difficulty, that we do find those in charge of things.
And when you do... I've seen the following take place.
In a certain bureaucracy, which I won't name, a very well-known bureaucracy, of a worldwide nature, not merely American, peopled by men and women of ordinary means, some of them Hindus, some of them Christians, some of them Jews, some of them nothing at all, but with a natural, what I know for want of a better phrase, psychic virtue, isolating somebody who is obviously perfectly possessed, and getting rid of them, because somehow or other they
Everybody agreed that the consensus of this person was in alliance with something that militated against their best interests as human beings.
I've seen that happen.
And not for any religious motive either.
Just, I mean, consciously religious motive.
You understand what I'm saying?
They felt uncomfortable in the presence of this person.
Yes.
The direction of their actions and decisions which they had power to take within the bureaucracy was evil, humanly, just humanly, just humanly.
I've seen that happen.
But yes, there are people in very high places as well as in normally high places who are perfectly possessed.
There's no doubt about that.
And they will never be saved?
As far as my experience in life goes, I don't doubt God's grace or God's greatness, God's power, but neither do I doubt or belittle the power of Lucifer.
He is the prince.
Satan is something else.
As you know, it's not the same being.
Satan and Lucifer are different, one from the other.
But I don't belittle the power of Lucifer.
He is the prince of this world, as Christ called him, and he has his He has his kingdom, and at the present moment he reigns supreme in the middle plateau.
Well, if Lucifer has all of these perfectly possessed people that are, in effect, in league with, have made a deal with him, then why does Lucifer, from time to time, do this horrible thing and possess the otherwise totally innocents?
Who have not asked for, in any way, any sort of deal with him?
Well, nobody is possessed against their will.
You always say yes.
Even the semi-possessed.
Even the obsessed.
Which is the stage prior to obsession.
They say yes.
You are never possessed against your will.
You're never obsessed against your will.
You open a door.
You say, well, who are you?
Or put a foot in and let me look at it.
It's a partial invitation.
But what must be stressed is that this doesn't happen to everybody who's just barely naughty.
Do you understand?
I use the word naughty to cover all sorts of human malefactions.
I'm sure.
It doesn't follow.
It's a random thing as far as we're concerned.
But there's one more thing which we must stress.
It's not a cause for pride on our part, but it's this, that Lucifer can be intensely stupid, as Satan can also, as all demons can be.
They're extremely limited in their knowledge.
They don't know everything.
They're not all powerful.
In fact, they have merely been conceded certain powers by God.
And that is one of the mysteries of this creation.
Why the Why, evil spirits have been given power.
But that they have, and that they reign supreme on the Middle Plateau, there's no doubt about that.
Father, I recently saw a movie called The Craft.
I don't know whether you've ever seen it.
I've heard about it.
It is about four young women who decide they will call upon dark spirits to do their bidding.
It's quite well done, calling on dark spirits from North, South, East, West.
Yes.
It's a horrifying movie, and to back it up, I've interviewed a number of people who suggest that young teenage girls, particularly young teenage girls, are powerful.
That they frequently have things occur around them, where poltergeist problems have occurred.
They've occurred around young teenage girls.
Now you have these four girls actively seeking out the dark forces to do their bidding.
Is such a thing possible?
Oh yes, and in an everyday occurrence, in our experience.
Now it's not that everybody does it, or a lot of people do it, but as far as happening, it's an everyday occurrence.
All right, Father, I want to talk more about this.
We're at the bottom of the hour.
Relax, we'll be right back to you.
This'll put a shiver down your spine.
Believe me.
I'm Art Bell from the high desert where there's cactus.
This is CBC.
We are the CBC.
1-800-825-5033.
This is the CBC Radio Network.
That's who we are.
Our guest is Father Malachi Martin from Manhattan.
and we'll get back to him in a moment alright back now to father malachi martin by the
By the way, Father, WABC Radio in New York The big one there in New York is having discussions with us presently about possibly getting on the air there.
The big apple.
And for two Saturdays recently, we sent them programs that we had done in the past, which they ran from, I think, midnight to five o'clock in the morning.
And one of those programs was one of the ones I had done with you.
Oh, thanks very much.
So you were heard widely there in your own city.
Very, very much so.
At any rate, I considered it one of the best, and so we sent it along and they ran it.
I thought you'd want to know.
I certainly do, and thank you so much.
All right.
Father, is magic real?
The best answer, the most accurate answer is yes.
There is a magic.
There is a magical system which is real, yes.
Alright, as an example, again I refer to the movie The Craft.
In that movie, it showed there was a dispute between a couple of the young ladies.
One grabbed a hankel hair from the other, and they began doing these dark spells.
And in the movie, this girl who had this magical spell cast against her began to lose all her hair, began falling out, That kind of magic, Father, are real, tangible things that can be done to other people.
Yes, that can be, under certain conditions, can be real, and effective, and horrible.
No doubt about it.
It can be.
So it can be, in effect, foisted off from one person to another, using dark forces.
Yes, under certain conditions.
Under certain conditions.
And one would want to outline those, but in general it is that Both the hexer, the speller, the person doing it, somebody else, must have an arrangement.
Be in league with.
Yes.
Have a pact with.
Yes.
Demonic forces.
And the person affected must lack protection.
Because we all need protection.
And what protection is there?
To put it in human language, on this level of understanding art, it is the arrangement whereby I, at least in general, in my life trend, and in the way I behave, I follow the dictates of what I call my conscience, which is really my angel, because we're all assigned an angel to protect us, because On this again, in this context, there is always danger of being attacked by demonic forces.
Either directly or indirectly.
And we have an angel, a guardian angel, we call it, or him, or her.
There's no sex involved, so we use him or her, or it.
We always have an angel who can protect us.
If we forsake that angel, and the general trend of our life is in the very opposite direction, then we are liable.
There's no doubt about that.
I can't tell you, I have one whole file, one whole filing cabinet, full of letters from people who are victims of that.
You are now 76?
That's right.
76 years old?
I sure am.
Truthfully, I'll be 76 on July 23.
On the 23rd, oh my, when I talked to your secretary the other day, she said you were, at the time we talked, at an exorcism.
That's right.
You're still doing exorcisms?
Oh yes.
At the personal moment, it's usually directed.
That is, I'm in charge of an exorcism.
I'm not usually doing it myself.
I don't need to.
Because there are two or three going on at the same time.
And I decide what must be done, interview the people, and the Highness, and then observe, and at times step in to correct something.
It goes on continuously.
Because they, since I started this work in the United States, that's about since 1970, It's now 1997, 98, coming into it.
Yes.
I, um, the amount, the incidence of possession, uh, and therefore of exorcism, has increased between seven hundred and fifty to eight hundred percent.
Wow!
It's enormous, and this is only in the northeast corner, Art, in the northeast corner.
Um.
The increases, and then the amount of covens that have sprung up Genuine Coven is enormous.
When you say Coven, would that be, for example, Wicca?
Yes, there are Wicca Coven.
Coven is a general term for a group of people who are linked together by one main point.
Adoration and service of Lucifer.
You know, many people involved, Father, in Wicca will tell me constantly that they are not of the dark side.
Oh yeah, there is a white Wicca, as they call it, and it's really nature worship and that sort of business.
You know, it's innocent in that sense.
It's a reversal to the gods of nature, and the gods of nature as such.
And that, of course, has its own liabilities as regards belief in God itself.
But the White Wicca, I know the chief Wiccan in Long Isle.
She's a very respectable lady and she holds classes teaching people how to enter Wicca.
White Wicca.
And they will have nothing to do with it in the other form.
But that's not what we're talking about, really.
It's a nature of worship.
And a lot of people are in it.
Many who are in it are in it because of disillusionment with religion.
Judaism, Christianity, Catholicism, Presbyterianism.
You know what I mean?
They've had it up to there, as we say, with a form of religion that they find disconsoling.
And they love animals, and they never have sacrifices of little animals, dogs, or cats, or birds, or horses, or anything like that.
It's a nature worship.
If we use the word paganism, it has connotations for the year that are sort of bad.
These are what the ancient Romans and ancient Greeks and all those people practiced.
Is it as dangerous for one's soul as even the darker forms of Wicca?
No.
No, no, it's not.
And I've met many Wicca people who are led out of this by sheer devotion to nature.
And by finding out that the beauty and the truth around them must mirror some greater beauty, greater truth, more permanent beauty and truth elsewhere.
And that's God.
But it all depends on... It's very hard to give a truth, an accurate answer to your question because it all depends on what graces have been offered you.
Has God entered your life and have you refused it?
Do you understand me?
Have you rejected An invitation from God?
Father, I don't feel I've ever had one.
I don't doubt a Creator.
However, I have no tangible proof, and I am the kind of person who has a very difficult time believing in that which I cannot prove.
And I'm constantly striving to prove And to learn through every avenue I can manage, some of them probably very less worthy than you can imagine, but I'm constantly searching and looking, and yet I've been unable to make that leap of faith, and I don't know that I've ever received a specific invitation.
How does one know?
Well, I'll tell you.
Somebody has said, and it's a way of entry into this, somebody has said that if I If I say to you, and I'm not me and you're not Art Bell, we're two mythical people, but if I say to you, look, I want to love you, that's the beginning of love.
It's the beginning of love.
If I say, I'd love to believe in you, it's the beginning of belief.
In fact, there's no Jewish theologian or Christian theologian who would dispute the fact that if you say that, It means that it's a grace in itself.
It's a grace in itself.
Just to say the words.
Just to say the words.
Otherwise you'd be feckless.
You wouldn't bother.
You wouldn't bother your head.
You regard it all as pitiful, as nonsense, as garbage.
And there's this about it too, Art.
There's this about it also.
That you can be drawn along for decades by The wish that one could get grace, and one doesn't, apparently, consciously, mentally, rationally, and all the while, you're getting grace.
Grace is something of which you're not conscious.
Does it come upon you as a slow-stage possession?
That's right, it does.
And it comes upon you in this, that when you find that, for instance, the fire is in you, that would Once upon a time, tended you to less good actions, tended you to less pure motives, that limited your original fits of anger, of lust, of gourmandise, of jealousy.
You find those fires dying down, and a certain pacific sense Entering your inner being, then there's something taking place.
But is that not a natural progression of age?
No.
No, no, no, no.
No?
Pastoral experience teaches me, and I'm long enough at it, that on the contrary, in my native language, Gaelic, Doliníšek is a famous phrase, getting older and deeper into sin.
The older you get, the worse you get.
Pastorally, it's not the way it is, Art.
People do not mellow and mature and get gentle and calm and compassionate.
On the contrary, they don't.
Except some people do.
Well, then maybe there is some hope for me, because surely those things are occurring to me.
Those things you described, as I grow older, are occurring to me.
I know they are.
And what God must do in your case, and my case, and every case where He wants them, He must purify the rust in you.
Whatever Erroneous thought you ever had, whatever excesses we committed when we were younger and more stupid than we are at the present moment.
Oh, believe me, there were many for me.
Well, we all have them.
There's no human being who, if they're honest, doesn't say the same thing.
But the difference is, the difference between the men and the boys is that there's that... You know, somebody said, and it's true, between the ages of 35 To 55 or 65, it's a corridor of youth.
And at the end of that, and towards the end of it, we begin suddenly to realize certain lessons we have learned, if the grace of God is working on us.
And, you see, God has no form.
We say, He, because that's the way the Bible speaks, and that's the way we talk in human language.
We have no neutral words.
In our English language, anyway, to express his existence.
But he draws us along gently, I think, until finally he can perfect it before we die.
So that when we die, we go to him and not elsewhere.
Good.
Here's a fax in.
I have suspected, Father Martin, that I may be possessed.
Very subtly.
For a long time now.
How it started is a long story, but after listening to you, my suspicion is now much stronger.
Please, Tell me if there is anything to do about this, or what it means for my soul in the long term.
I'm really scared.
Please help.
Unsigned.
Of course.
But now, Art, in this case, you see, we don't know what religious denomination this person is.
Whether they're Christian, or Jewish, or Hindu.
Does it matter?
Well, it does, because of the things we can appeal to for understanding.
You see, look, you and I now, already, from all the talking we've done together, We have a mutual understanding.
Yes.
You haven't got to explain your terms to me at all.
I know where you're going with a sentence, and you know generally where I'm going when I'm talking.
But with a total stranger, you have to have some surface-level markings.
You must know their background by way of education, what religious, if any, ritual they have followed or been exposed to, and what are their thoughts, and then what has happened in their concrete life, concrete life situation.
Their wives or their children or their husbands.
This particular person, what I would say to them, whether it means something to them or not, that they should start saying a simple prayer.
And it is to Christ.
And it is this.
It's five words.
Hide me in your wounds.
And see the effect of that prayer on them.
And that they can always write to me.
Yes, that's right.
Can you perform an exorcism on somebody who is a non-Catholic or even somebody without apparent faith?
Sure.
Sure you can, if they consent.
I mean, if there's a basic consent.
There's a civil as well as a religious aspect to this.
There's a civil aspect.
You can't do something to somebody unless you get the consent of somebody who is authority over them.
Is it possible to perform an exorcism on somebody without their consent?
In other words, In worst case scenario, could somebody literally be tied to a bed or bound in some way by family members and have somebody like you called in?
Yes, but you have their prior consent.
At some given moment, they've said yes.
There must be something like that.
Otherwise, they're perfectly possessed.
You're violating their civil rights.
You're limiting their action.
You're violating their civil rights.
Yes, because, I mean, if we suspect that John X is possessed, and we have strong reasons for thinking so, unless we have John's general consent, or his particular consent, and John is over 18, he's a head out, we just can't aggress him and tie him down.
Not in this day and age.
So you can only exorcise those who are less than perfectly possessed?
There is no exorcism for the perfectly possessed.
None.
None whatever.
The perfectly possessed, you can give them a bottle of holy water and they'll drink it.
They can handle a host, a consecrated host at mass, which means nothing to them.
They can look on a crucifix and say, oh, well that's Romanesque and it probably is 9th century.
It'll mean nothing to them.
You said that exorcisms in the Northeast, at the very least, are up 750 to 800 percent.
That's terrifying.
And what does it mean to you?
What's coming?
Oh, it means, not to put a tooth in it, as they say in the English, it means that the prince has a wider kingdom than he had When we started off in 1970, anyway.
That means he has a wider clientele.
And therefore that... You see, I don't know if you've noticed it, but there's a certain... There's a certain disturbance.
Perturbation of mind.
Disequilibrium.
At least a certain uncertainty in people today.
There wasn't 20 years, 25 years ago, 30 years ago, 40 years ago.
I have noticed, believe me.
There is this peculiar thing, and it's the demon.
There are demons assigned to do this to people.
And you get up in the morning, and you feel lousy.
And you're discouraged by everything.
And there's no apparent reason for it.
You've got money in the bank, and your wife or your husband are very happy with you.
The children are all healthy, more or less.
And there's no war on.
Nobody's out to kill you.
And yet you're dissatisfied and empty.
And yet you are empty, dry and despondent.
Yes.
And that means that you're under attack.
That means that they want also to affect your spirit, so that you spread dissatisfaction.
And you spread discontent.
You spread unpeace.
And that's why we all love somebody who, when they come into a room, the light comes with them.
Life and peace and joy of some kind or other.
And you know that person when you're in their presence.
Exactly.
They don't make you horselap every moment of the day.
Sure.
They do give you this.
And when they leave, it goes with them and you don't want them to go.
It's the simplest people have it.
And the opposite is true as well.
When you are in the presence of a perfectly possessed person.
Yeah.
You know it.
You don't wonder about it.
You know it.
And there are a lot of people here who are not acquainted with this phenomenon itself.
Father, hold on.
We're at the top of the hour.
Stand by.
We'll be back.
Father Malachi Martin is my guest.
When you hear phone numbers, please do not call.
Now, from the Kingdom of Mind, more Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
Here again is Art.
...to open the phone lines.
Uh, but I want to set aside one line for An interesting purpose.
We have with us a very holy man indeed, Father Malachi Martin, advisor to two popes.
And you've probably heard him before, perhaps not.
This may be the first time.
Father Martin is an exorcist.
He has done many, many exorcisms.
He now directs exorcisms.
I think it would be useful and intriguing to open a line, a special line, for those who are either atheists or those who practice the dark arts.
And I would like to hear your comments, and I would like to hear an interaction.
Yes, this invites controversy, but that's what we do here.
And it really is a classic... See, how can I put this?
I guess I want to show a classic delineation between good and evil.
We have good, and I know there's plenty of evil out there.
So I'm actually inviting it on one line.
I would ask the audience cooperation, otherwise you can call any of the other numbers, but I am going to hold one line open for those of you who claim to be atheists or practice the dark arts.
That line is area code 702, 727-1222.
I'll repeat it again and I would ask everybody else not in that category to please now hang up.
Area code 702-727-1222.
Heaven knows, or maybe that's a poor expression.
I can safely say that I get many, many calls and faxes from atheists.
I would be interested in hearing from you.
Many calls from those who practice the dark arts, magic, whatever you want to call it.
So again, I request the cooperation of the audience in not calling that number unless you are one of the above.
It is area code 702-727-1222.
It should be intriguing.
702 727 1222 It should be intriguing father welcome back, thank you
We've done this on previous programs, Father, but if you would, describe for the audience, before we get to the phones, exactly what a real exorcism is like.
Well, the essence of an exorcism, when it's really an exorcism, by the way, just as a preliminary remark, let me state this much.
A lot of people have the idea that reciting healing prayers over somebody It's an exorcism, it's not.
The essence of exorcism is a confrontation between the exorcist and the demon presumably possessing the person who is being exorcised.
It is a personal confrontation, question and answer, question and answer, and command, question and answer.
It's not a question of a beautiful prayer, Or aspirations, all that can be included one way or the other, but the chief, the essence of it is the exorcism itself, the confrontation, and the idea of the confrontation is to relieve this person of the power possessing their will and their mind, therefore their soul.
What occurs during this confrontation?
What occurs is, first of all, there's the difficulty of getting the demon to talk.
Away from the phone a little bit, Father.
The difficulty is that the exorcist must first of all achieve is getting into contact with the demon presumably possessing this person.
That's the first thing, and that sometimes takes some time.
Sometimes no, but sometimes it takes a long time.
A lot of cajoling, a lot of abuse, and a lot of effort.
And there are certain rules that the exorcist must follow, otherwise he's going to fail.
Number one, when that does take place, when there is contact, and there is dialogue, then the exorcist must find out the name the demon assumes.
The demon always assumes a name when he possesses somebody, and how long it's there, and why it's there, and then get its consent to depart.
And that's the essence of an exorcism.
To get its consent to depart.
Suppose it obviously does not want to depart.
It doesn't ever want to depart.
You've got to get its submission.
Consent is a difficult word to use.
It's submission to being expelled.
Because you see, there is an entire theory and belief behind it all, Art.
It is that as long as this cosmos endures as it is, Demons have a certain liberty, a certain freedom, and they roam on what is called, figuratively, the Middle Plateau.
Once this cosmos ends, and there's only heaven, then there's only hell, and they go back there, permanently, and it's more intense suffering for them.
They never want to go back there.
They'd rather roam around the world, and you have examples of that in the In the Christian Bible, the demons who possessed these people that Christ exorcised, they said, please, please put us into these swine.
Remember the incident of the kerosene swine, Art?
They had the whole, it was a hog farm, obviously, and it was a whole flock of hogs, and they possessed these poor animals and they all rushed into the sea, over a cliff.
They didn't want to be sent back.
Uh, to hell, to suffer just to suffer.
They want us to roam the world on the middle plateau.
But it's a whole, it's a whole mentality which the exorcist must have.
And, uh, because he's got to understand who he's up against.
Father, question.
Yep.
The middle plateau.
Yes.
Um, remote viewers, uh, psychics, uh, people who claim powers, uh, Uh, and insight that others do not have.
Are they dabbling and moving within and joining with this middle plateau?
Yeah.
Dabbling is a mild word.
They're doing much more than that.
And it's a very dangerous thing because you can be locked into it and eventually end up possessed.
Suddenly obsessed.
It is a very tempting one for many people who have psychic gifts.
I had an interview with somebody there a few days ago, and he wants out of it.
He originally entered it voluntarily because it corresponded to his sensitivity, and he felt that he could get certain wisdom from it.
Now he knows it's slavery, and he wants out of it.
And he will get out of it, too.
So the Middle Plateau is a very dangerous thing, and people who use Ouija boards, who do Transcendental Meditation, who engage in spiritual seances, properly so-called, who indulge in Black Wicca, or in direct cultivation of demons, they are entering willy-nilly the Middle Plateau, and it's very dangerous.
It is very dangerous.
All right, let us go to the lines.
On my special line, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Good morning.
Good morning, and thank you for taking my call.
Oh, you're going to have to speak up.
I can barely hear you.
Where are you?
I'm barely here.
Oh, okay.
I'm in Seattle, Washington.
Yes.
And thank you for taking my call.
I'm a 48-year-old woman, and I've I grew up in a couple of orphanages, and I had Christianity thrown at me my entire life, and there's one question that no minister or priest has ever been able to answer for me, and this is why I feel that I am an atheist, and that is that I have a daughter that's an adult.
I love her unconditionally, and I assume that my ability to love her unconditionally is minute to what would be God of the Universe, the Creator, if there is one.
And with my daughter, I would never say to her, if you don't love me, I'm going to send you to Hell.
And that's what I understand that Christianity is all about and that the God of Christianity is about, that if we don't love Him and I know, ma'am.
I get exactly what you're saying.
going to be sent to this horrible, horrible place and suffer eternity in the hells and
the belly of fire.
And that's one, I don't understand that, Father Malachi.
I don't understand.
I know, ma'am.
I get exactly what you're saying.
It's not as, and I'm not saying this about you, but it's not as crude a belief or as
rough a belief as that.
not an either or in that horrible sense.
If it were, then that would be a most unloving God.
That's how I felt it.
And I would agree with you.
What's that?
That is how I have felt.
I know.
But that is not... Explain it to me, please.
Well, that's not exactly the picture of things.
The essence of it, it would take a very long time to go through it all, but the essential is this.
That there are certain things which please him because they conform to his godly nature and his godly will.
And by the way, I'm sure you observe most of them.
The moral laws.
The ethical laws.
Honesty and purity and compassion and gentleness.
And, you know, living a decent life.
And loving your neighbor.
Not doing obvious harm to anybody, really.
...kept incidentally or in a fit, but not as a policy, not being an evil person.
And one senses that from the accents you're using and the words you're using.
That's what he requires as his practice.
And if somebody lives like that, there is no way they can go to hell.
There is no way they can be punished.
Because they're fulfilling His will.
Now, there's this about it, that God is infinitely patient because He's God.
And He has an individual knowledge of each person's soul and being.
He knows every thought.
He knows the marrow of my bones.
And the point is that He measures His graces To suit what I need.
But there is no way on earth if I practice love of my neighbor and love of myself too.
I don't mutilate myself.
I don't desecrate my body.
I don't desecrate my soul with evil or my body with excess.
And I do my duty and I live a normally good life.
There is no way on earth that God would even dream Well, I hope that helps you.
No way at all.
But that's, we have cut it down to the essentials, ma'am.
That's the essentials of it.
This God is love.
Well I hope that helps you.
Obviously it's an answer you've never received before.
That's true.
I've listened to you since 92, and this is the first time I've called, and I really appreciate your program.
Okay, well, thank you very much for the call, and good luck to you.
God bless you, ma'am.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Hello.
Yes.
Hi, how's it going?
I need to speak to Art Bell, if I can, please?
You are speaking to Art Bell with Father Malachi Martin.
I'm speaking to him?
Yes.
Oh, this is great.
All right.
What it is, is I'm practicing white magic and everything.
And I don't know.
Can I let you in on my story?
How much time do I have?
Well, we're coming up to a break, but you will be, obviously, a very interesting call.
So what I'll do is hold you over.
Where are you calling from?
I'm calling from Jacksonville in Florida.
Jacksonville, Florida.
All right.
I'll tell you what.
Stay right where you are.
Thank you.
And we'll do our break and come back to you.
All right.
Sure thing.
Father, take it easy.
We'll be right back.
White magic, huh?
Well, this should be interesting.
Good morning, everybody.
My guest from Manhattan, New York, is Father Malachi Martin, advisor to two popes and a very well-published author.
We'll tell you about his books and how to get them shortly.
This is CBC.
Back now to Father Malachi Martin and My caller who claims to be practicing white wicca.
Caller, you're back on the air.
Hi, how's it going?
My name's Richard.
Richard, okay.
You doing good?
Alright, cool.
Well then, yeah, everything that I'm fixing to say kind of relevates, or excuse me, it kind of goes with everything that you've been talking about the last few days with Bible codes and so on and so forth with what you were talking about today.
My best way to describe it, with which I think his name was Steve, who you were talking about a few days ago, well anyways, I'm like blabbering, I'm like so... You are blabbering, so get to the point, please.
Alright.
Okay, the best way I can describe it, sir, would be echoes, alright?
Say when everything first started out, right?
You got nothing, and then what happened is this nothing took consciousness, that consciousness is that get-you-up feeling in the morning, and it's just Is that the world you're in?
Excuse me?
That's what God is right there.
He's everything that's good and that's great and that's creating all, right?
Okay.
As far as Satanistic goes, I mean, you get stretched out on a line.
Okay, on one end you got totally just hell, and on the other end you got just heaven.
And in the middle you got what y'all were talking about earlier, the third plane.
That's what you might want to call the color magic.
That's what's easiest for most people to understand.
Is that the world you're in?
Excuse me?
I said is that the world you're in?
No, I'm- what are you talking about, man?
All right, well, I'm talking about what you said when you came on the air, that you practice white wicca.
Uh, yeah, no, I practice just... It's not white wicca, it's just... All right, well, then, uh, thank you for the call.
Uh, you're not even consistent with what you first said.
Um, on the, uh, special first-time caller line, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Hello.
Hello?
Hello.
Oh, okay, I'm on.
Oh, these new wagers make my teeth hurt, Art.
I've been practicing Wicca for about 30 years plus, and Father Martin there sounded so in touch with everything.
I was wondering if I could ask him a couple of questions.
Go ahead.
Go ahead, ma'am.
All right, Father, would you say that things have been going kind of crazy in the world since the Catholic Church broke with tradition?
Yes.
Would it be better if the church went back to the old tradition?
Yes, but I think now that's impossible.
They can't go back, unfortunately.
What will happen will be some new form.
But unfortunately, I say unfortunately because you can see my prejudice there.
It will be better, but they can't.
They've gone so far.
Yeah.
Okay, because at one time I was a Catholic.
As a matter of fact, with my religion, I pull some of my favorite saints into it, too.
Because, as you know, with Wicca, we encompass a lot of different religions.
I know you do.
I know you do.
Yeah.
But that's all right.
Yeah.
Provided you honor Christ and... Oh, yes.
Oh, yes.
It's a strange combination.
But as most Wiccans find a place that's comfortable for themselves, I've started a couple of covens and that was one of the main things that I would present to the people is for them to find a place for them that was comfortable.
Yes.
And in which we really don't have black and white.
It's just an easy way to explain what we do.
Yes, I agree with that.
We have to use it as a way of denominating things, you know.
One thing I've been finding is there's been a lot of dream weavers running around bothering people.
Yes, it is.
Why?
I know with the new age, Dreamweaving is a very weak form of the darker art.
Yes, there is something let loose there which hasn't been let loose up to now.
Father, what is Dreamweaving?
Ma'am, you explain it in your language.
Well, you could probably explain it easier than I could.
Dreamweaving is when you send negative forces to people when they're sleeping.
That's right.
Uh, you can control a person better when their defenses are down.
And in sleep, the defenses are down.
Uh, you can, uh, cause them, uh, great illness if they don't sleep properly.
Uh, some people have gotten very paranoid.
They have.
Have you done that to people?
Uh, no sir, I haven't.
I've put up, uh, findings and awards to protect some of the people that I'm working with.
Good, good.
It gives them protection that they lack.
Right.
There's no doubt about it, ma'am.
What I was going to say is that a lot of these new ages are using this dream weaving.
I know they are.
And they don't know what they're dealing with.
No, they don't.
And they end up in the ditch, as we say, figuratively speaking.
And there's also behind it all, too, ma'am, there's this fact that there has been let loose upon us some other forces.
That help dream weaving of an evil kind.
And we're trying to combat that and that's very difficult.
It's very difficult.
It accounts for an awful lot of insomnia.
It accounts for an awful lot of disorder in families and disruptions and divorces.
It accounts for a terrific amount of damage.
Oh yes.
And I've also noticed there's a lot of imps running around lately.
Yes.
Pardon me?
Imps.
Imps.
What are those?
For want of a better definition, minor devils that are mischievous.
Yes.
That's the closest definition I can come to.
It's a good way of putting it.
They are mischievous, as you say.
They are devils.
They belong to the Middle Plateau for the present moment.
That's their plane of activity.
And they can be called poltergeists, if you want to call them that.
They behave like poltergeists at times.
There are a lot of those, but I think that's all part of this avalanche that's been let loose upon us.
I can't... I don't know why, but that's the way things have gone.
And as you said, it did coincide with the disruption of the Catholic tradition.
I don't know why.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Good morning.
Wonderful to speak to you again, Mr. Bell.
I just listened to your... I just tuned in, and I heard mention of the Catholic Church.
I wonder if Mr. Martin could give more insight into what is actually going on with the Catholic Church.
Well, provided I don't scandalize you, or hurt your feelings.
Well, you know what I mean.
I have to be careful, because it's one of the few things that My gentle Lord Jesus condemned us to give scandal, and there are ways of giving scandal, but if you want me to be very frank, here's what's happening as far as I'm concerned.
There is a worldwide apostasy going on among Catholics, and it is on the highest levels and the lowest levels.
Mr. Bell, do you know who I am?
No, not yet.
Who are you?
Well, this will give you a clue.
Mr. Martin, what do you feel is the Catholic Church's connection with vampirism?
Oh, what?
Uh, Father?
Yes?
You are speaking to somebody who claims to be a vampire.
Ah.
Mr. Bell, I'll be sending you some literature, photos, and a lot of information.
Hopefully you can help me spread the word about what is happening with vampires in this country and in the world right now.
Have you ever spoken with a vampire, Father?
Yes, I have.
I have.
There was a school of vampirology, that's what it's called, in Long Island.
I knew the members of it in the 70s.
I've lost track of all of them.
That school's been shut down.
It has moved.
Really?
Yes.
It's now somewhere in the Midwest.
Well, yet I know that then there was another settlement or group in Louisville, Kentucky.
It's the exact same school.
Yeah, it is.
But I only have passing... But do you know, you are aware that the Catholic Church is involved in vampirism?
No, I'm not aware of that, that it's officially involved in vampirism.
The Catholic Church of today isn't the Catholic Church it was, let's say, four years ago.
He said the Catholic Church is not the church it was years ago, I think.
Oh, that I know.
That I fully agree with you.
But that the wholesale official vampirism, I did not know.
A lot of the... I'm not even contesting that.
A lot of the scandal that is plaguing the Catholic Church today, you know, the children, it isn't a coincidence that this is happening all over the country.
And why are the churches paying big money to keep it quiet?
I know.
We're paying an offer, and we've paid since 1985, I think, with the Catholic Church in America, has had to shell out not quite a billion dollars in out-of-court settlements.
Wow.
This is for child molestation.
It's more than molestation in many ways.
I'm sorry to... Of course it is.
The molestation is a general word covering an awful lot.
Yes.
When you receive the information, I need to find out how to send it to you.
Alright, well... You understand I'm... I'm in hiding.
Yeah, you just listened to my address.
Father, I heard you agreeing with him more than not with regard to the state of the church.
Yes.
The cause of that state is something else.
A billion dollars short of a billion dollars?
Almost a billion and out of court settlements.
Why?
Why is there so much Well, Art, you've asked me the $64,000 question.
If we knew why this plague has descended upon us in the States, just in the United States of America alone, we'd be very happy because then we could do something about it.
We don't quite know.
Now, by the way, it doesn't involve more than Four to six percent, and it's the official figure of the clergy.
But the damage is huge.
And the reports we're getting about Europe, and Ireland in particular, are very discouraging.
The same plague, which I call it, is afflicting those places, beginning to afflict them.
But now that it's due to vampirism, that's something new.
In my, in my horizon.
All right.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Hello.
Hello there.
No, I guess I didn't push the button.
Sorry about that.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Hello.
Oh, all right.
This is Stephanie at Albuquerque.
Albuquerque, yes, sir.
Yes, on QB.
Father Martin, it's been a pleasure and an inspiration to hear you on our show.
Thank you very much for saying that, sir.
I wanted to relate two experiences to you and I would like your thoughts on it.
One was a number of years ago I was experimenting a little bit with shamanism and I had a rather negative experience.
I tried to induce a shamanic trance and shortly thereafter a large blue and red bird with a very long He appeared before me about three feet away, and its beak started pulling, the best way I can describe it is a stream of energy from my chest, at which point I invoked the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the bird disappeared.
My question on that would be what your thoughts on shamanism were generally, and if it is It's important for it to be a positive endeavor by those who practice it, why I ended up having this negative confrontation.
That's one story that I'd like to comment on.
The other is that my father passed away about four years ago, in a very painful circumstance, left alone, protected illness.
And about two months ago, I had a visitation from him.
Did you see him?
I didn't see him.
I was upstairs and I was asleep, at least I believe I was.
I felt myself moving downstairs and I picked up the phone because the phone was ringing and it was him.
He said, as only my father would have said at the time, things sure are different on the other side.
It was very characteristic of him, like you would say.
It was amazing.
I want to ask a million questions about, you know, how he died and family conflicts that had arisen from the circumstances of his death.
Of course.
And you said, I don't have time to talk, but just be true to yourself, be happy with who you are, and I'll talk again later.
Alright, Father, from that, I would ask you, do people communicate with people who have passed on?
Do they really communicate with them, or is this A concoction of their own needs in their own mind.
If it were merely a question of being a concoction of their own needs in their own mind, that would be one thing, at least it's innocent.
The difficulty is this, that our friend here from Albuquerque, who is very frank talking to us, he endeavored to practice shamanism, and shamanism is an open door to the middle plateau And that middle plateau is dominated by spirits not friendly to our souls, and they can deceive us.
And we can be hoaxed without our knowing it.
And especially when it's a question of somebody we love, like my father, or my mother, or my sister, my brother, my friend, my wife, my husband, I can be deceived.
And there's only one sure way of avoiding Being hoaxed, and that is submitting it all to a very sharp rule of discernment, which would take a long time to explain right here and now, but it's spiritual discernment.
Because anything touching the spirit, and I say also to our friend in Albuquerque, anything touching the human spirit, anything invading my soul, my will, And intellect, that's how my soul has got to, is of prime importance, because I'm sitting duck for angels and devils, and I must make my choice, and I must be careful what friends I make.
And I would advise him to be very careful about practicing shamanism.
He had one experience which was a warning to him, and obviously he's protected, otherwise that bird would have tore his heart out.
Alright, uh, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Good, uh, good morning.
Uh, yes, sir.
Good morning.
You know the man who calls about the vampirism and all that?
Yeah, he called a little while ago, yes.
Back in the 70s, I used to take a lot of her lucigenics acid.
Yep.
And one night I was, a vampire was in the corner of the living room up there by the ceiling and hit me like in seconds and ever since then, I've had a form of sexual obsession.
I mean, I've studied the Bible, but Father Malachi, I know the verse where you're ever learning, but you never come to the knowledge of God.
It's like I cannot break away from this.
I mean, I know the Bible inside and out.
I would advise you to seek out a Negro cyst.
What you describe is a form of obsession.
Demonic obsession.
It's not quite possession.
Otherwise you couldn't be talking like you talk.
That incident happened like in a matter of seconds.
You know what I mean?
I could see that thing in the corner by the ceiling and it hit me and I knew it had hit me.
It's instantaneous.
It takes just a moment of time.
And then that other problem developed, and to this day I have that problem.
I know you do.
I mean, I've even prayed to God and said, I know this is horrific, but I can't... You will have, until you get rid of that obsession.
And the only way you'll get rid of that is by means of an exorcist, really.
But that sounds so drastic.
You know what I mean?
An exorcism?
Well, it's not drastic in your case, because you're not resisting it.
Well, I've been to, you know, psychologists, psychiatrists, and all that.
Oh, there's no healing there at all.
All psychologists and psychiatrists will do for you, my friend, is this.
They will make you viable.
Do you know what I mean?
You'll be able to carry on.
That's about what they told me.
Yeah, there's no healing, you know.
There's just so much to learn to live with.
Yeah, they don't heal you.
Only one person can heal you, and that's the grace of our Lord Jesus.
And I should seek out He got a holy priest.
Would that only be a Catholic priest?
Well, I only know holy Catholic priests.
I'm sure there are other holy people.
And tell them what's going on in my life?
That's right.
If I were you, I'd do that.
Ever since that had happened, this has caused major problems in my life.
It really has.
I'm sure it has.
Father, how does somebody know that, this may be a question for after we come back from the break, How does one know that you have found the right kind of priest?
You will know that because when we say the right kind, we must mean somebody who is close to God.
Somebody capable of recognizing this... Exactly, and has the expertise in dealing with it because, you know, there's nothing worse than an ignorant priest who doesn't know what to do.
Well... Nothing worse than it.
Or one that cost the church a lot of money, as in... Wow.
You know, but talking in the context of good men.
But good, stupid men can do just as much damage, inadvertently.
Do you understand me?
I do indeed.
You must have somebody who can help.
Father, stand by.
We'll be right back.
this is CBC.
From the Kingdom of Nile, across the country, around the world, and throughout the
universe, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the CBC Radio
Network.
the world.
Back now to Manhattan, New York, and Father Malachi Martin.
Father, I've intentionally invited something of the dark side Just, I guess, as a sort of a contrast this evening, as something different to do.
Yeah.
Maybe I shouldn't do it, I don't know.
No, no, no harm done.
But you know what?
There's a lot of it out there, Father, and a lot of people think these are kooks or crazy people, and they're not.
For example, the guy who called and said he's a vampire, he's been very serious.
I know, he's dead serious.
He knows what he's talking about.
I take it very seriously, Art, quite frankly.
A lot of people, Father, who are basically good people, think that these realms, these people who are into these things, are not real.
They are.
The unfortunate point is that they are real.
That's the difficulty.
Exactly right.
And these are the people that when you're doing your serious work, you're working with, aren't they?
That's right.
All right.
Exactly.
You're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Thank you for having me.
Sure.
Where are you?
I'm in the low desert.
My name is Debbie.
Okay.
Dr. Malachite, I believe in both the dark and light, and that they should be together and not split apart like the Catholics have done.
And I just wondered, in your studies, I study astrology and not the esoteric kind, and at the time of change, like the one that happened just before Jesus was born, there were big floods for a few years, and about About ten times as many years there were droughts, and I wondered if in your studies there has been reference to that, because most of the references were lost when the library was burned at Alexandria.
There are references.
There is a set of men called the Church Fathers, and they lived between 100 A.D.
and 600 A.D., taking those as cliche dates.
And their writings are considered to be very valuable for Christianity, and they do speak about such things.
They speak about such climatic changes, climatological changes, I should say, and calamities of various kinds, with water and earthquakes, and mainly floods and volcanoes.
I do.
You're right.
I'm curious about something you said, ma'am.
You said you work with the dark and the light.
How do you do that?
Well, I don't separate it.
I think that both are a natural part of our environment.
In fact, I'm really worried about some tendencies with the new age.
I'm glad people are trying to get in touch with themselves, but I'm sure the doctor knows that a lot of the people who are learning channeling from other people who don't really know anything seem to have more contact with things that the Catholics would call incubus and succubus than they are with having contact with anything that would give us valid information.
In that vein, I wonder if he's had to cure a number of people who, well, there are people who say, once you open the door, it's really hard to get it shut.
I think these people, in their innocence and wanting to see just the good and the light and the happy, aren't looking at what they're doing.
I know.
You're right.
There are a lot of innocent mistakes there, which end up in a lot of pain.
I think that if we could have a long, long conversation, which we can't have tonight anyway, when you say you work with the dark and the light, you know those are traditional things within Christianity itself.
Absolutely.
I grew up in a Christian household.
By the way, there's a balance beyond the union of dark and light, which I'm sure you have come to or will come to.
Sir, when I was a child, the people who worked with the person that was the missionary in our town who had been to India accused me of being Bodhisattva, so I kind of look at everything because I'm supposed to be here to look at the whole picture.
Well, the role of Bodhisattva is, you know, has a... I don't know how to put this, but it has a parallel within Christianity itself.
A Bodhisattva is just... Wasn't that the John the Baptist?
Yes, it's a question of sacrificing oneself for one's fellow man, for one's fellow people.
There's nothing disruptive or evil about the Buddha's pathway, in my view, at all.
Thank you very much.
It must be understood very carefully.
Well, I hope you feel better.
Well, thank you.
I really appreciate you letting me talk.
All right.
It's been a pleasure, ma'am.
Take care.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Hi.
Is it possible for a person to be a lycanthrope and not be evil?
Yes, it is possible.
I would like to ask your guest a question.
Is it possible for a person to be a lycanthrope and not be evil?
Yes, it is possible.
Within the framework of your question I must say yes, it is possible.
In other words, can lycanthropy be kind of a gift?
He's a good guy.
Yes, it can be.
And like everything else, it can have a good purpose or a needle purpose.
Father, would you get a little bit away from the phone for me?
Sorry.
I'm sorry.
Pardon me.
It's alright.
I haven't spoken with a man with this outlook for quite a while, and I got excited.
Well, let me understand, because I don't understand what he just said.
So... So, will you explain lycanthropy to us?
Well, uh...
Lycanthropy, the definition you'll find in most dictionaries, is the delusion a person suffers that they believe that they're either a wolf or a werewolf.
Uh-huh.
That's you?
Not by that definition.
Let's see.
I don't know how to describe it in my terms.
Well, do the best you can.
Tell us what you think you are, what you feel.
It's mostly in dreams.
I don't believe in werewolves in the real world or anything, but I've had lycanthropy in my dreams.
That was just a question I came up with while listening to your show.
I'm glad you did.
It's not necessarily evil, but it would be interesting to find out why you have those Like anthropic dreams.
It really would.
Do you want to know, Caller?
Uh, yes.
If you can answer that.
How does he find out, Father?
Uh, he must pray.
And he does.
It can be generational, in the sense that it can come from factors Which he inherits, with his flesh and bones.
Wow.
Because accompanying that, there's an ancestral influence.
And that's something which I can't, at this distance, I can't perform, you know.
Okay, just to make something clear, I don't dream of ripping people's throats out or anything.
I know you don't.
I know you don't.
It's mainly being a wolf with other wolves out in the wilderness type dreams.
That's right.
Sometimes if I do take that half-state form, those dreams, it seems like instead of killing people, I'm saving people's lives.
I've had a lot of dreams recently of saving people from fires.
Well, that's the good version of it which you share.
That's why I say it can be good and it can be evil.
But I'd want to know much more about you, sir.
So you don't hear a lot of this sort of thing, then, Father?
No.
There's a certain quantum I've come across in a certain amount of people.
It's a minority, as far as my experience goes.
But I've heard about it and talked with them, but I've always had to inquire about their families.
There's a generational aspect to this which must be thought out.
Especially if it has a negative effect.
When it has a positive effect, as this man just said, then I still would inquire about it because I'd be very curious.
It's a rare trait.
I'm learning a lot tonight.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Hi.
Hello.
Oh, it's me.
Oh, hi.
Yes, hi.
Where are you?
Um, San Francisco.
Okay.
And my name is Tiziana, and I'm a first-time caller, and it's an honor to speak with both of you.
Thank you.
Um, I had a, uh, my question for Father, uh, Martin is that I needed some advice on how to respond to, um, my five-year-old daughter's question.
And, uh, namely, she came to me and asked me with a, quite a serious and inquisitive tone, and said, Mom, why when I'm alone I feel like there's
someone watching me?
Additionally, before she even asked me the question, I just intuitively knew that she
was going to ask me that specific question.
Maybe I could attribute this to the fact that I'm also quite sensitive and I've had episodes
where I've been intuitive or psychic, whatever you want to name it.
I also have felt that I have been watched or I feel someone is watching me.
In particular, I felt it strongly when my sister had passed away and it was during a
traumatic time in my life.
What I did during those times was just not to be afraid.
Naturally, I just kind of called that to God, you know, to Jesus, and I felt at ease.
Now, I don't think that my daughter is experiencing the same thing as I am, and when she asked me this question, I didn't want to put words in her mouth, and I was kind of, like, caught off guard, and I told her to describe to me what it is that she was feeling.
Was this an animal?
Was it a person?
And she kind of, like, tried to grasp the words, and she thought, and she goes, Well, I think it could be my garden angel.
And it's just, well, you know, your garden angel is there to protect you, and it's there to guide you, and it's... What do you feel?
Does it talk to you?
Because, no, I just feel like I have to run, and I'm afraid.
I have to run?
Yes.
That's not necessarily good.
No, no, no, it's not.
And then what has happened, I guess, we're going through some traumatic times.
Yes, there's been an illness with an aunt and also my brother has just been diagnosed
with cancer.
So I guess I thought maybe she's just feeling all the stresses of what's going on.
But she has been coming to sleep in my bed after she's five years old, after a long period
of time.
And I thought, hmm, I could tell she's probably stressed about something.
I don't know if I should take this seriously or if it's just a fluke or could she possibly
be feeling, because she's very sensitive and she's extremely bright and very artistic.
Okay, ma'am, hold on a moment.
I don't know what you think, Gus.
Can we talk?
Yes.
Do we have time?
We do.
I would guess, Father, that if this child is feeling something she feels she has to run from, that doesn't sound like a guardian angel to me.
No, it doesn't.
It doesn't.
It sounds she's frightened.
But the only way to approach her in this matter would be to get her confidence.
Yes.
How would I go about doing that?
Well, I think you'd want closer bodily association with her.
Like lying in bed together?
Yes.
Eating together?
Uh-huh.
And then talking about objective things together and describing things.
If you come across some flowers, say what you feel about those flowers and get it to come out like that slowly but surely.
Does she say any prayers?
Oh yes.
We're Catholic and we go to church and we say our prayers at night.
I'll tell you, um... I'd like to send you something for that child.
The Chaplet of St.
Michael.
But, uh... That's rather difficult in the present moment, because I haven't got an address.
And, um... I don't want you to be broadcasting your address over the air.
Why don't we do it the other way around, Father, and give her a way to contact you?
Yes, well, it would be my address.
My address for the radio.
It's 217 E 66th Street.
Did you say 217 E?
Yes.
66th?
E 66th Street, New York, New York, 10021.
And, um, when you write, I want to give you a nickname, Teresa.
Teresa?
Teresa, yes.
So say, I am the person you call Teresa.
Okay.
And I'll know who you're talking about.
Okay.
Great.
Thank you so much.
I really feel so much at ease now.
God bless you.
Take care, and thank you very much for the call.
Repeat your address good and slowly, Father, because... Yes, I will.
217 East 66th Street, New York, New York 10021.
East 66th Street, New York, New York 10021.
First time on our line, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Oh, it's an honor, Art.
Thank you.
Sure.
Father Malachi, years ago in my family, we met a man that was a healer.
And he said he didn't do the healing, but God did.
And he healed me of an ulcer.
And it happened instantaneously.
Then my mother got cancer real, real bad.
Tumors everywhere, had five operations.
She was in bed and she was suffering terrible with pain.
And I went to her home and called him what to do, how to help her.
And he asked me if I would let him transfer her pain into my legs so she wouldn't have to suffer so badly.
Well, it's my mother.
I wanted to help her.
I loved her.
Yeah.
And I said, yes, without thinking.
I thought I was healthy.
I thought, well, it would go right away.
You know, it wouldn't, I wouldn't have to keep it.
Never had thought of that.
Well, it's 15 years and I got the pain.
My mother, of course, died.
Did she die of the cancer?
Yes.
Yes, sir.
She did.
She got more tumors after that.
And they had to give her morphine and then she passed away.
Alright, you have really struck an interesting question.
We're at the bottom of the hour, ma'am, so we're going to have to go.
Is she an empath?
Is what she said possible?
Oh, yeah.
It is.
Oh yes, it is.
And then even her mother passes away and she, for life, still has the suffering.
I'll ask more about it when we get back.
Father Malachi Martin is my guest.
from the high desert on a very early Saturday morning. This is CBC.
Back to Father Malachi Martin, the young lady who called, or not so young.
Have we lost contact with her?
Well, not in the sense that she's still listening.
I think she gave us her story.
She asked to receive that pain, and she has had it now all her life.
How is that possible, to transfer in that way pain, and what can she do?
Well, the first comment to make upon it is that it's a very dangerous thing to do.
And, um, uh, the man she spoke to, it's not he who transferred the pain.
Um, it's God.
Bye.
But you cannot tempt God.
Why would God do that?
Because this is an abuse.
He was wrong, that man, in suggesting, it didn't say for a mother anyway, Clearly, but I don't understand why you say it is an abuse.
In other words, this is something she did out of love.
I know, but it was misdirected love.
Misdirected by this particular healer.
And you're not supposed to do that.
You're supposed to accept from God, and heal if you can by other means, but not by that sort of substitution.
Offering up of yourself.
Yeah, it's not, it's not, it's all been condemned by Christianity from the very start.
Because the ancient healers, pre-Christian, and then the, at the same time, early, in early Christianity, the Roman and Greek healers used to practice this sort of healing, and substitute healing, as we call it in the books.
And it's all been condemned by Christianity as wrong.
Just wrong, because you don't choose these things.
It's one thing to sacrifice your life for somebody else, to save their life, when they're drowning, or they're being bitten by a mad dog, or whatever, or killed by somebody cruel, and you'll be killed in their place.
That's number one.
But in the matter of disease, and you're fiddling with God's providence in a way which is not holy, not good, She's always condemned it.
Substitute healing.
All right.
What does she do now?
What she does is she gets a holy priest, a holy man, to pray over her and give her a healing process.
There's no question of any demonic influence here.
It's simply a mistake she made and she was punished for it.
She can merit an awful lot, but a good priest should teach her how to I know.
I know.
I know As something that shouldn't be done.
Okay.
And I, in my very Christian instinct, my Christian instinct goes against it.
I know it's always been condemned.
It's not the way to go.
Why?
Well, the bigger problem is why God allows other things, like the birth of babies that are coke addicted and have AIDS, when they did nothing except their parents.
Yes.
You know, it's one of these mysteries of evil.
I don't know, Art.
I have no answer to that question.
I wish I had, but I haven't.
All right.
What about this one?
Father Martin, I'm a Catholic.
I respect you greatly, but you said something that was a bit disquieting.
Yes.
An earlier caller identified herself as not only someone who practices Wicca, but she said that she had left the Catholic Church.
You said that was okay.
What she was doing was okay, as long as she honored Christ.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Or please clarify what you meant.
How can it be okay that she left the true church for a pale imitation?
Well, I don't think she left the true church.
That's the point.
From what she was saying, it seems to me that she was deserting the organization as such.
But she honors Christ, and honors his mother, and prays, and is a good person morally.
She has no more left the church than I have.
But what she's talking about is the organization, which she found abhorrent for some reason or other.
And, of course, if not, if she had said to me, you know, I practice Wicca, and I worship the devils, or I worship idols, or I worship this world, and, no, I don't have any belief or attachment to the Lord Jesus, or to, as you call Him, or the Virgin Mary or the angels, that would be a different story.
But you can't say you've left the Church when you honor these people.
I mean, you live a moral life.
She has some reason for saying that.
I know so many people, Art, who will tell me, I absolutely hate the Catholic Church's organization.
It's clergy, it's bishops, it's garbage.
And then I find that they're very good people.
Except that something bad hit them.
They were maltreated, or unjustly treated, or they were scandalized.
And, um, but they're still within the Church of Christ.
He still loves them.
They belong to him still.
They don't have to be in the organization to be with him?
Not absolutely.
They should be.
If, through some accident, personal accident, they exit from the formal connection with the organization, they still belong to Christ.
All right.
Um, on my first time caller line, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Hi.
Oh, all right.
This is Keith from actually Oklahoma.
Yes, sir.
You're going to have to speak up good and loud, Keith.
Get into that phone and yell at us.
I'm sorry.
This is not a phone, Gene.
Just a portable... It's all right.
Go right ahead.
Listen, I've tried to get through to follow my account many times.
I have many questions.
I am an atheist.
I'm not a non-believer.
I'm not a bad person.
I teach my son right from wrong.
But I have many questions.
Number one, I have a mentally retarded brother who has no understanding of right and wrong, who has no understanding of God and evil.
Where is his place in immortality?
Where is his place?
How old is he?
He right now is about 31.
Is he viable?
Can he work?
Not really.
So somebody must take care of him.
Yes, my mother and father take care of him.
And when they go, somebody else must take care of him.
Well, his place is... I suppose, takes the place of that... They asked Christ about somebody similarly afflicted in the Gospel, and he said that such a person is the best... is one example of the way God lets things happen in this world.
And the people said, well, is it because of his father or his mother that he's so punished?
And he said, no.
No, no.
It's to manifest the power of God.
It's a difficult thing to accept, but he has a place in the scheme of salvation.
Okay, Father.
I'm also a surgical nurse.
Yes.
And you would not believe the horrors we see coming in with young children that have been abused.
I can believe it.
I mean, I actually saw a two-year-old The father had taken a child and actually broken its back over its knee.
You know, how do you explain that?
Well, you don't.
There's a thing called evil.
There's a thing called evil in this world and evil runs rampant in certain families and the suffering and the pain and the horrible experiences, trust on the weak and the helpless.
It has only served always to drive me into the arms of my Lord, Jesus, and God.
I know it exists, and I want to escape it, and I hope never to indulge in it or fall into it, and I hope to cure people practicing it, but that it's there is a fact of life.
That's the world.
There's a long story behind that, a long, long cosmic story, Which you know probably as well as I could explain it, but it's the existence of evil.
I know, but I mean, you know, it's just somehow you say, uh, who's looking out for these children?
I mean, they can't help themselves.
They didn't do anything to deserve that.
No, they did not deserve it at all.
All you can do, all you can do is, well, if you can restore them physically, that's one thing you can do.
But if, like a little child with his back broken, I'm sure it died.
Yes it did.
But then, at that stage, your faith must enter, because when I have come across children like that, for instance, to give you an example, if it doesn't shock everybody listening, I had access to a child who had been sodomized, a little girl, by her daddy.
I've seen many, sir.
What?
I've seen many.
And she was just a year and a half, almost two years old, but she had been baptized, of course.
What I do is, I associate their sufferings, because she suffered.
I associate her sufferings with the sufferings of my Lord Jesus, who died for all sinners, in the hope that her sufferings can be turned to good use by Christ Himself.
That's the only... And I also pray for little babies like that.
I have a whole list of them, by the way, which I recite every day.
That's sad in itself.
It is very sad.
The only thing is that this life is sad in several aspects, and we can't let that dominate, because we have a glorious Savior, and we have a glorious God, and that He has allowed evil is one of the biggest mysteries we have to face.
I agree with that.
I have one more key question.
What is it?
It's something I proposed to my priest in town and he could not answer it for me.
We say that in Heaven there is no sorrow, there is no sickness, there is only everlasting happiness and love.
Let's say for example, take Art for example.
We all know how close he is to his mother, how much he loves his mother.
Let's say he gets to heaven and for some reason, just an example, his mother isn't there.
How do you explain that?
How do you account for that?
I mean, how can you have happiness if the people you love are not around you?
Well, the happiness in heaven, first of all, doesn't spring from the people around you.
It springs from God.
And number two, I really would be very surprised if Art Bell's mommy isn't there.
No, I know.
I really mean that.
No, I understand.
I was just using it as an example.
Look, it's more likely that you'll be missing me.
No, no, no.
We won't be missing you.
We're going to make sure that you come upstairs with us all.
But the point is that when you get to heaven, when you are in God's presence, you are absorbed in Him.
And anybody or anything not absorbed in Him Once this cosmos has passed away, it fades out of your existence, fades out of your memory, fades out of life.
So everything down here doesn't count?
Well, it does count because it's down here that I work out my salvation.
It counts.
Oh yes, it counts, my goodness.
And that's one of the reasons, if I could say it, I don't want to be trumpeting this as triumphantly or invidiously, but One of the biggest differences between the early Protestants, at least, and Catholics was this, that, as you know, Luther, for instance, would say that you can do nothing to save yourself.
You're justified by faith alone.
Whereas Catholics have always said, no, no, you merit.
You can merit punishment.
You can merit heaven.
And similarly, I must tell you, sir, that if I were in your place, in the surgical wards, I would have a A little baby family of about 3,000 already, that I would have baptized with water, or at least baptized somewhere, rather, and that I would have prayed to that their sufferings would be united with the sufferings of my Lord Jesus, because that's the way I can save souls.
Well, I'm curious about something, Carl.
You advertised yourself as an atheist when you first called.
Yes, sir.
I understand an agnostic.
I understand somebody who has not been able to quite make the leap of faith Necessary to be one with God.
But I don't understand an atheist.
That's somebody, by definition, who believes there is no such thing as God.
Is that correct?
Yes, sir.
I do not believe in God.
I do not believe in the devil.
If you don't believe in one, you can't believe in the other.
That's right.
You know, you're not a devil washer just because you're an atheist.
I'm a good person.
I would treat my son right and wrong.
In the old saying of Missouri, I'm a show me person.
I just can't quite grasp the concept of faith.
I just can't quite grasp it.
It's like the old coin trick behind the ear where you say, where did it go?
I've got it.
I don't believe in magic.
I don't believe in faith.
I wish I could.
I am envious of people who believe in an everlasting life.
I'll tell you something.
Yes, sir.
I'll tell you something.
We said it to somebody earlier who was with Arthur and myself.
If I would like to love you, it's the beginning of love.
And if I would like to believe, it's the beginning of belief.
Because otherwise you'd say, I don't give a damn about it.
Do you understand what I'm saying?
Yes, sir.
So there's something there.
And look, I don't know your personal life, and probably God will never give us the chance of Of consorting with and revealing each other to each other, but he has a plan for you because you're a good man.
Yes, sir.
And you're doing a good duty, and he will reveal himself to you in his own way.
It won't be, probably, the way he reveals himself to Art Bell or to me, or to Art's wife or Art's mother, whatever it is, but you have found God already.
You're not calling him God.
And I'll be praying for you.
Thank you.
All right, thank you very much for the call.
So, even somebody who would say he is an atheist is not lost?
Oh, no.
Oh, no.
Not like that, no.
No, the soul is too valuable.
Now, the only person, person that seemed to me to be lost, I stress the fact that seems to me out, is the perfectly possessed.
Because that's a total renunciation, but a total renunciation of a formal, I mean, it's done deliberately.
What about a devil worshipper?
Well, if he really worships the devil, he's possessed, perfectly possessed.
You can't worship the devil, really worship him, as the prince has everything for you.
I thought of, as I listened to you describe a perfectly possessed person as someone who would not so actively uh... be engaged in worship of the devil's specifically but might have cut a deal well what we've got a deal there's an act of worship implied and usually take a plate all right you need to take a break east of the rockies are on the air with father melancholy martin hello alone are you there are all right where are you uh... in austin texas yes sir uh... and uh...
I believe it was you, Art, first of all, that was asking why there was such a big change in the Catholic Church, and I was just going to suggest that if you think about it, there's probably no other religion anywhere that's quite as organized as that, so if you're wanting to weaken something, that would be a good place to hit first, wouldn't it?
It would.
He's quite right.
And for the father there, I wondered, has he encountered any things that are left from before?
I guess you'd have to say heaven and hell were separate.
I don't really understand the question fully, please.
Things that were around before there was a world.
Before there was a world?
Yeah.
Well, the Lucifer and Satan and the other devils that we deal with today existed before there was a world.
Anything besides them?
Yes.
Yes?
A whole lot of stuff for which we have no human names.
Oh, now there's an answer I did not expect.
Yep.
It's very hard.
There's no name.
We have no human names because we have no physical images.
We can't have human knowledge of it.
It's very hard to explain this.
It does belong to the dimensional area of life, but not quite the tridimensional area that we know.
See, if it doesn't bore you too much, here's the idea that the universe as we have it today is a reconstructed universe.
Oh, look, this is, uh... I'm going to ask both of you to hold on, and we'll pick up on this after the top of the hour, okay?
This is too good to let go, so can everybody hold on?
Sure, certainly.
Alright, good.
Both of you, then, hold tight.
We're talking other-dimensional beings prior to mankind's appearance on Earth.
Okay, we'll pick up on that when we come back.
This is CBC.
The devil went down to Georgia, he was looking for a soul to steal.
He was in a bind because he was way behind and he was willing to make a deal.
when he came across this young man sewing on a fiddle and playing it hot
and the devil jumped up on a hickory stump and said boy let me tell you what
this is the cbc radio network stay tuned for more of this encore presentation of
coast to coast am with art bell coming up after the news on most of these cbc stations
Back now to Father Malachi Martin in Manhattan.
Father, how are you holding up?
Fine.
Could not be better, Art.
All right.
This was one of the most interesting questions or answers to a question I've heard.
Caller, are you there?
Yes, I am.
All right.
The question was, what was on earth, if anything, before man?
Father, you said that Satan and his disciples were here, but you said there were others as well.
Yes.
I take it, Art, that the phrase you used just now, on earth, is uh... just
referred to the the tridimensional existence that we know
yes i don't think yes uh... okay
now the the what in put in people minds understanding
the answer to a daniel question daniel from austin's question
is the fact that our minds and uh... our education
has been geared as it were uh... programmed on the idea of evolution
is darwin's evolution It's in our minds, and it blocks our intelligence.
And, of course, it's a mythical idea, and it has nothing to do with reality, and doesn't explain reality.
But it does, it's in our minds, and it blocks our intelligence.
If you read, and I may seem to be rambling, but I'm not really.
If you read the first twelve chapters of Genesis, particularly the first six or seven of them,
you will find that interlaced with names and supposedly historical references,
there are phrases and sentences which suppose the existence of beings for which we have no names.
They're called the Sons of Men and the Sons of God.
The Bene Elohim, as they call it in Hebrew.
And, uh, the Daughters of Men, etc.
And the Giants that lived in those days.
And all this.
And the old Yavitz writer, the old writers, Composing and putting this Bible together in the 9th century BC, from the records they had, were doing their best to make a coherent statement, and all they could do was gather testimony.
What I was referring to was this, that it would seem, it would take a long time to explain it though, it would seem that The universe as we know it today, you and I and Daniel and the rest of us, is a reconstruction of a universe that was almost destroyed by the first phase of God's creation, namely the angelic world.
And the very form of our bodies, the very form of our bodies, is an ad hoc restoration by God.
And we won't have this sort of a body when we're in heaven.
We will have our bodies, but not this sort of a body.
Now, the Reconstruction implies that the revolt of Lucifer and the angels that went with him, the Bible says one-third, but you know the Bible's numbers are Just numerically interesting.
They revolted, and they almost destroyed the first handiwork of God, and there was a restoration in view of the coming of Christ later on, much later on.
Now, what existed before that, what was destroyed by this A terrible war, a terrible revolt by the first creatures that came from God's hands, whom we call angels.
Angel itself is an ad hoc name, as we say.
There's nothing specific about it at all.
And it's very hard to be specific about an angel.
But anyway, the beings that existed Uh, and the form that they took, we have no human words for it.
Uh, those chapters of Genesis, uh, the early chapters, they try to fix names like the Sons of God, the Bnei Elohim, and the Bnei Haradamn, the Daughters of Men, and the Sons of God, and the Giants, etc.
They're all park names.
They also were at a loss because they We would not recognize them as human in our sense of the word because what is human for us is something with legs and arms and a belly and genitals and a head and arms and exiting from the birth canal of a woman.
But then what we're left with and where we can track it, but it's a difficult and a long tracking process, Is this, that there is this middle plateau, which is the remnant of the old, original creation, created material cosmos, and that on that plateau, Lucifer and his crowd still function, and will until the last day of this cosmos, when it's all blown away by the breath of Christ's mouth, and only heaven and hell exist.
Now, that may not be much of an explanation, but at least as a start, it's the first level of an expression or explanation of what I meant.
I was wondering if you had very much problem dealing with those type of entities that are leftovers.
If I stay with my protection, no.
If I step outside my protection, yes, I have what can be literally called A hell of an amount of trouble.
Okay.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Hello.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Where are you, sir?
My name is James.
I'm from El Paso, Texas.
El Paso.
Yes, sir.
I myself have been practicing Wicca for a number of years, and growing up I was around many people who had I guess in one way or another stepped into the occult.
You know, my mother was into astrology.
My father was part of the Rosicrucians back in the 70s.
And my wife was featured in a book called Something in the Blood.
It was about vampiric lifestyles.
And in dealing with all that, I found out on the market, you know, I read it quite a bit, and I found a void in books that deal with occult crimes.
And so I'm putting together a manuscript on a book, and I've researched occult crimes quite exhaustingly.
And I have a question for you, Father.
I found that many of the people who do commit these horrid crimes were tormented as children.
You know, were probably picked on in school, had abusive parents.
That's right.
You're right there.
Do you feel that perhaps In your opinion, the devil or demons have been pushing at them since they were children, or is this something that the parents have pushed on, and they have simply found an opening to grasp the soul of these people?
The analysis, the only analysis for the moment that satisfies me, satisfies what I have found anyway, is as follows.
You see, if you abuse a child, The child can take it one way or another.
Now, supposing the child is, say, four, five, something like that.
Or even six.
But anyway, in that young age, out of infancy, but not quite in boyhood or youthhood, if they take it badly, they can fall under the influence of the demon.
If they take it well, if they can, they don't.
And what's the deciding factor?
Their free will.
And that's where there's an initial act of will.
I think that everybody who comes into existence in this world, sheer infancy is one thing.
Where you simply, your mother is your world and her breasts are everything for you.
But once you start getting any knowledge, any appreciation of the world outside you, as outside you, there comes a moment, some stark personal moment, all by yourself, when you make a decision.
And I think you make a decision between light and darkness.
There is a man called Jean Paul Richter, a German writer, he is dead now.
He said that he was born in the black forest.
His father was a woodcutter and they lived in a small hut.
There was a pile of manure outside their door always because his father had horses to drag
the lumber.
He went out one morning when he was two and a half, three, about two and a half, three
years, and he climbed on top of the manure just to look out because it was an easy thing
to climb.
He heard the cock crowing and he saw the first rays of sunlight over the tops of the pine
trees and he heard himself say to himself, it's been nine eight.
I am an I.
I am a self.
I am me.
That sort of a moment of choice.
Well, I think that once you exercise free will, I'm sorry if I held the receiver badly out.
I was about to talk to you about that.
Yeah, I'm sorry about that, lad.
I've just corrected it when I get excited.
The point is that you can make a choice at that early age which puts you within the realm of the demon.
Or you can make a choice which puts you in the realm of the angels.
And why you make that choice, I do not know.
I do not know the factors.
I do not know.
I think free will is the most extraordinary gift and the most dangerous gift we have.
Do you feel that it is easier for the demons, or however you choose to embody them, to influence children who have lived abused lives?
Yes, I think it is.
Because no matter how lovely a child is, no matter how pure it's born, no matter how unsullied its mind and will are, it still has What Christians call original sin, that is the lack of grace, and once tempted to hit back at somebody hurting you, really tempted to do so, puts you within the realm of the demon.
But it's a very... it's more problematic than the latency period, which is problematic in itself.
That early period between How does the Catholic Church deal with a lot of the crimes going on out there?
early infancy. It hasn't been studied by churchmen intelligently and it must be finally studied.
One more quick question, Father. How does the Catholic Church deal with a lot of the
crimes going on out there? I've noticed even with my wife, she gets pen pals that write
to her through the book. There's quite a many children out there falling into the fantasy
vampire. The difficulty today in America, my friend, it's terribly hard to say how the
church should behave or used to behave because belief in the devil, belief in positive evil,
has fallen through the roofs in the Catholic Church today amongst the clergy.
Mm-hmm.
And a lot of bishops simply don't believe in the devil, don't believe in positive evil.
Everybody is good, according to them, and there's no such thing as evil, really.
Devil?
No.
Devils?
No.
Hell?
No.
God is?
Hell no.
God is too good.
And it's a goody-goody theology.
This mother has got to be the fifth time tonight I've heard vampirism mentioned.
Yes, I know.
I know.
I know.
Because it is one spreading evil.
It is still spreading.
It's a new thing.
It's part of the lust for blood.
And there is a... Vampirism, as it is practiced today, is a means of worship of Satan.
When it's really practiced.
Alright.
Blood.
Murder.
Murder.
Yes.
With malice and forethought.
Mortal sin, yes.
Yes, certainly.
Certainly.
When the state, any state, executes somebody for the crime of murder, what is that?
Well, I don't know what their motives are.
It all depends what their motivation is.
I know that if I were to approve of capital punishment for a person who is an established murderer or murderess, that There is the question of justice.
I take your life, uh, deliberately, maliciously, knowingly.
I must restitute, just as if I steal a hundred dollars of yours, the judge is going to say to me, give him back his hundred dollars, and add a fine to it, but you give him back his... You must make restitution.
All right, Father, we're going to pick up on this.
We'll be right back.
Uh, it's a hard question.
Seems to me it's a very hard question.
Anyway...
Anyway, I guess it's different when the state does it.
We'll be back.
Father are you there?
Yes, of course I am.
Alright, good.
Well then, if murder is a mortal sin, then when the state takes a life, it is something else.
Yes, it is.
Because the motivation, the intention is what makes the difference.
And the state has felt it is empowered To inflict this loss of life as a punishment for an unjust action on my part, if I'm the person involved.
As to the justification of that, that's something else, Art, which has engaged a long debate for a long time about various things.
What to do about it?
If I do take somebody's life, Shouldn't I be deprived of my life?
This is the argument of the people in charge, in favor of capital punishment.
Yes.
The others say no.
No, no, the best punishment is life without parole, in prison.
But the others respond, no, I'm sorry, you still are alive.
You don't deserve to be alive.
You've killed.
You've deprived somebody of their life.
And the debate goes on.
All right, what's up?
Call us toll-free at 1-800-618-8255.
Desert of Calgary.
We're going to have to start all over again.
The only thing we don't let you do on this program is give your last name.
Oh, I'm sorry.
So let's begin again.
Garrett from Mojave Desert.
That's the way to do it.
All righty.
Good morning, my friends.
Father, you had a question.
Yes.
I think today, I think a lot of our trouble is we forget who we are and what we're striving towards.
I wondered if you had heard, if you had any comment on the 30-something volumes the Vatican has recently released and has held back since the 30s from Luisa Picareta called the Books of Heaven?
Yes, I haven't read them all.
I've read a lot of Luis Picareta.
What revelations and impact do you think they might have on the ongoing changes in the Church and for us?
Well, it's very voluminous, you know, and it's basic Catholic doctrine, there's no doubt about that.
What difference it will make, it depends on who practices it, and if it is practiced, because she has a definite program.
There is a different program involved in her writings, and the writings are honored by everybody, cardinals and bishops and priests and nuns and people.
I don't know what the effect of it is going to be.
Pardon me?
I've heard it called a guidebook for the future church.
Yes, that's a difficult thing to... It is called that by a lot of people, but she doesn't face Not quite formulate the problems that we have today, and presumably those will be the problems of tomorrow.
The main problem being the total disintegration of the organization.
The Pope, Bishop, Priest, Nun, Diocese.
That structure is decaying, is obsoleting, and is not reviving.
The structure of the Church is up for grabs.
She doesn't touch on that.
She does talk about the spirit of the church, and she does talk about the call to holiness, and the reasons for striving for holiness, and the rules for it, but the precise difficulty we're passing through, she doesn't deal with.
Is it true that she lived on the Eucharist for sixty-some years alone?
Yes, this is verified.
Without eating any food?
Yes, this is verified, but she's not the first one.
Louisa of Connorsworth was the same thing, and the Nazis certified that, because they didn't believe it, and they isolated her.
And she lived right through it all, with the same food only, just the host.
The hostess host.
So, Louis Picareta.
But that's, it's not the first time in history, and it won't be the last.
Yes.
All right.
Thank you, Father.
Very inspiring.
Yes.
All right, thank you very much, caller, and take care.
This is the end of side one.
Please leave the cassette exactly where it is.
Good morning, gentlemen.
Morning.
I have a couple questions for Father Malachi.
The first one is, I'm a Christian, but I love Art Bell.
Well, we share that common love.
And so many people think that That they're contradictory to one another.
So much of Art's philosophies are just like mine.
I'm not saying there are aliens.
I haven't seen any.
I know Art's seen a couple of somethings now, but I haven't even been that lucky.
But I still hold open the possibility that they're there.
And why is that contradictory with Christianity by so many people's standards?
Do you have any idea?
Well, I can formulate it.
In other words, why is it so contradictory to Christian theology that there may be others?
I mean, here we're discovering some form of life, microbial, albeit at Mars.
There may be life on Jupiter.
Life is beginning to look to be very common.
Not uncommon, and yet the concept is rejected by fundamentalist Christians.
Well, they shouldn't reject it.
I don't think they should reject any factual evidence in our cosmos.
They should not reject it.
And I don't think my church officially is guilty of that.
In fact, They seem to be leaning the other way, really, too much, in certain areas.
But no, nobody should reject any sign of life.
Yeah, I agree with you.
I'm Keith in Columbia, Missouri, too.
I'm sorry, I forgot.
But my other question is, Father Malachi, I've recently been doing this Bible study that comes up with the Catholic Church as being the Antichrist.
Yes, and I'm sure you've heard these questions.
My first introduction when I was down in Missouri was when somebody told me that the Pope was the Red Lady of the Mediterranean, and that we were plotting the downfall of all the nations.
Well, there's a bunch of things to think about other than that.
For one, for just a couple of simple, fast things, the changing from the Sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday is like a big one that just really jumps out at me.
Uh-huh.
And the changing of the fourth commandment from remember the seventh day, Sabbath day, to just remember the Sabbath day.
Are you a Sabbath day Adventist?
I went to the church a couple of times and I kind of liked it.
It's appealing.
It is appealing, but I'll tell you what happened to me.
I had a dream one night that the preacher came to my house and was going to talk to me and the wife and son.
He said, pardon me while I go in the other room and get ready.
When he came back he had this thing around his neck and that was all he had on.
Oh boy.
He was nude.
And it was just in a dream.
But I was also just studying some of Daniel's dreams and interpretations and I was like, man is God trying to tell me something.
So I never went back but recently I thought maybe God was telling me everything you see with this guy is everything you get.
He's not hiding nothing.
So I'm going to go back again.
I sure appreciate it.
Archie, have a great show.
Thank you, my friend.
Take care.
Father, I have a question for you.
It concerns the Vatican's intense, almost obsessive interest with astronomy in Arizona.
The Vatican, despite environmental obstacles that would not normally be overcome by anybody else, in conjunction with the University of Arizona, muscled its way onto Mount Graham and constructed an observatory.
Can you enlighten me at all as to why they have such an obsessive interest in astronomy?
Yes, I can, in general terms.
The reason is this.
They've always had this, by the way.
They've always had an observatory.
Not always.
It dates from about the 9th century A.D.
But there's intense interest now in astronomy because of the contents of some of the secret revelations they claim were made in this century about the near future, involving stars, involving astronomical data.
It's about as general a statement as I'd be allowed to make.
Oh, I think I can read that one quite well.
Okay, I'm sure you cannot.
But there definitely is an interest, because they're looking for the evidence they need to decide that certain things must be done.
I understand, and I appreciate the answer, too.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
Hello.
Hi, my name's Nick.
I'm in Albuquerque.
Hi, Nick.
I had a question for Father Malachi Martin.
I've always been really intrigued with this passage in Genesis 6-4 where they make reference
to the Nephilim.
In the Bible it says that they took notice of the daughters of the earth and that they
then proceeded to have intercourse and then they gave birth to giants.
I was wondering exactly who the Nephilim are and also I imagine they are entities or it
refers to them as the true sons of God.
the next video.
We touched on this in an earlier hour with another caller, and you probably heard that part of it.
Again, it's the analysis of what really happened in the beginning.
Right.
In the beginning.
And as I said to Art and the caller then, we have no names.
You see, look, when you and I want to describe something, even when we talk about, say, the men from Mars, or little green men landing in Roswell, New Mexico in 1947, we always configure them with legs and arms and a nose and eyes, some sort of We're extremely limited, actually, in what we can imagine, because we have either got men, human beings, or we've got animals.
But the difficulty is that there does seem to be suggestive evidence that before the human race peopled this particular patch of the cosmos, There were other beings, not human, no, but we have no faces, we have no way of describing their appearance, we have no names for them, because we can't configure them physically, you know what I mean?
Yeah, well... You know what the difficulty is?
If Helium is one of the mysterious, and the B'nai Elohim, the sons of God, They're all very, very shadowy figures in those first chapters of Genesis.
Right.
Well, you know, if God populated this planet with humans, is there the possibility that Satan or Lucifer populated other planets with their concept?
And could they possibly be the aliens we're encountering at this time?
Yes.
Any information we have, which is very sparse anyway, any evidence we have, Nick, about this, restricts living beings to this galaxy and this particular planet in this galaxy.
I see.
It doesn't mean that, but that doesn't mean that that's complete, but as far as we know.
And then, as regards the beings we think we're now, the UFOs as we call them, and I'm not saying that derisively like the green men from Mars or something like that, I'm saying it, but I think that so far the evidence is that it's demonic in origin.
I see.
There's one element which is certain, it is that the function of the original angels created like that, they were the first wave of creation, it was to serve and to govern the cosmos of man.
Right.
But that went awry.
So basically the Nephilim are the fallen angels, the followers of Lucifer?
We don't quite know, Nick.
I can't say that.
I wish I could give you an answer to that.
We don't know.
All right, let me try and phrase it this way, Father.
If Mount Graham were to suddenly detect something, some sort of ship, some sort of something headed toward Earth, That was unambiguously a craft, not of Earth.
Yes.
They would assume that automatically then to be demonic.
Yes, although, yes, it's very hard.
That's a hard question to answer.
It really is.
I'd be going beyond the evidence if I said yes or no to that.
It's a difficult thing to answer.
It's a very difficult thing to answer.
I don't know, Art.
I must confess to you, I don't know.
I wish I did, but I don't.
Maybe it's one of those things that it is better not to know.
Well, at the moment, yes.
The only word we have on it is take care of things on this Earth.
Don't worry about what happens on other planets.
It's amazing, isn't it?
Let's all reflect on it for a moment.
It's amazing how the interest in this little machine on the Martian landscape has aroused.
Yes.
It's amazing.
It's only a little machine and four wheels, and we're just talking about rocks.
Yes.
But the idea of the whole thing has fascinated People who are listening to the broadcast and seeing that mosaic of pictures.
So I don't know what to say about all that.
To imagine that at one time Mars was like Waterworld.
That there was a planet-wide flood and that it was covered with water.
That's a lot to imagine, Father.
It is a lot.
Where there was water, where there is water, generally there is life.
Three and a half billion years ago, and now it's a dried up desert of a planet, y'all.
Yep.
It's very, very funny.
You see, Art, I must sort of show my colors in one sense.
We do not know yet, and probably we'll have to wait until eternity to find out, we do not know the extent of the damage done by the revolt against God.
We don't know the extent of that damage.
Maybe we're looking at evidence.
I sometimes suspect we are, but I have no grounds for proving it.
It's quite difficult.
Father, we've done it again.
We're at the end of the program.
I know it's ridiculous, Father.
It feels like one hour.
I know.
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