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July 6, 1997 - Art Bell
01:50:05
Dreamland with Art Bell - Col. Philip Corso and Wm. J. Birnes - The Day After Roswell
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Welcome to Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience
not easily nor neatly put in a box.
Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not mapped.
And yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
This is Dreamland.
It is Dreamland, another Sunday evening.
Good evening everybody, I'm Art Bell.
In Roswell, New Mexico.
Words have been happening.
Coming up shortly, Linda Biden Howe,
Colonel Philip J. Corso retired, and William J. Burns,
who co-authored The Day After Roswell with Colonel Corso.
As promised, coming up shortly.
In all the years of published books about Roswell and about extraterrestrials,
I would venture a guess that none has stirred the pot more heavily
than the book we're going to talk about tonight and the man who wrote it.
Actually, men who wrote it.
Colonel Philip J. Carso, retired, along with William J. Burns, has authored The Day After Roswell.
And, in fact, it is The Day After Roswell when things really began to happen.
Here in Moswell, to begin it all, is Linda Moulton Howe.
Linda, welcome.
All right, hi.
You know, it was April 9th, 1983, that I was sitting in that office at Kirtland Air Force Base with Air Force Office Special Investigations Agent Richard C. Doty, who was handing me a paper that he said that I could read and I could not take notes And he made me sit in a chair in the middle of a room that I later learned was because they videotaped and audiotaped my reactions to what I was reading.
Oh, no kidding?
Yep.
And the top of that briefing paper said, in all caps, centered, Briefing Paper for the President of the United States of America on the Subject of Identified Aerial Vehicles, an apparent IACS.
And when I turned to the next page in the first paragraph, of about eight or nine sentences, It listed retrievals of extraterrestrial, and that was the word that was used in that paper that I saw April 9, 1983, of extraterrestrial craft and bodies, both dead and alive, from a series of locations in the southwestern United States and the northern nation of Mexico.
And it listed a series of cities and areas, including at least two in the Roswell area, in 47 and 49.
One as early as 1946, predating all of the historic discussion about 1947, talked about the retrieval of a craft from northern Mexico, south of Laredo, Texas, over the border, talked about the retrieval of a crash in Kingman, Arizona, and Magdalena, which is out near the plains of St.
Augustine, and all of that was listed.
And the paper went into a historic insight and evolution of how that our government in terms of confronting having these craft and these beings that they didn't understand what they were or where they came from had set in motion a series of insider military medical and scientific people to study But to keep all of this information from the public and the media while they ascertained whether there was a national security threat.
One of the conversations with Richard Doty that day, April 9th, 1983, he mentioned that inside of our United States government that one of the things that had also helped keep this whole story covered up for nearly half a century was internal conflict.
between the intelligence agencies in the United States and military branches
that in inside of the structures of our government we had a kind of internecine war
going on between various bureaus. Well that's not hard to imagine because the military wars
between the various branches of its own. That's right and in 1947 for the very first time
the United States separated Army Air Force into two separate branches which added to the confusion
in 1947.
Well, tonight, I am sitting with a book on my lap.
The top says, The Truth Exposed After 50 Years.
A former Pentagon official reveals the United States government's shocking UFO cover-up the day after Roswell by Colonel Philip J. Corso, retired with William J. Burns, forwarded by Senator Strom Thurmond.
I have read this book from cover to cover and I have found material that absolutely addresses some of the questions that I've had ever since this description of internal battles within our own intelligence forces and military and also another area which tonight I hope that we will be able to talk about at least three areas.
One is what Philip Corso knew about our government's knowledge of a non-human intelligence and technology and what his assignment was concerning that alien technology.
His own extraordinary experiences of this internecine warfare that was going on in which he knew and took the position that the army had to keep at all costs any of this alien technology and any related sensitive
areas away from the Central Intelligence Agency because at that point coming out of World War II,
the Army, the then new Air Force and the Navy were more concerned about possible KGB spies
inside of the Central Intelligence Agency than anything else and they were afraid that if the
material that they collected went into that agency that was controlling intelligence that
they would lose it forever from the American industrial military complex having any hands on. It would
be like going into a black hole.
And then there is a third area that has been brought up to me over the last 15 years periodically
that I have not myself understood and it has been men who have asked me in my investigations
of things like the animal mutilation mystery and others, did I have knowledge about Earth's
secret war in relationship to the non-human intelligence and the position that our government
had taken in relationship to it.
And...
Until the last two or three days, and a real privilege to sit down and talk in some detail with Colonel Corso and with William Burns, I have had a lot of the A lot of confusion that I think everyone else does about exactly what has been happening over the last 50 years that has kept this policy of silence and the suggestions that inside our own government there has been tremendous conflict and what is this earth secret war about?
Tonight I think if we start and move through these three large areas that the Dreamland
listening audience is going to find that the whole non-human intelligence area may be part
of the heart of an internecine warfare.
But this story is so big and so huge and I'm sitting with two men that have facets about
this that have answered some questions for me and I hope by the end of these three hours
Art that you and the audience will also realize that this book is one of the most important
voices that has emerged in the last 50 years from a man who was there in 1960-63 in the
Pentagon working with Lieutenant General Arthur Trudeau on one of the most provocative challenges
that I have ever read anywhere in my life and that was how to get not understood artifacts
retrieved from these disks into the industrial complex of the United States so that it could
be hopefully used.
military and industry without being swallowed up into the black hole of intelligence that
would never let it out.
Now I'm going to introduce Colonel Philip J. Corso, retired.
The man with the remarkable first-hand experience with this information.
We are working in a Roswell Inn where we have one phone.
What I'm going to do is pose a question to Colonel Corso and then I'm going to try to
help moderate around with his phone so that William Burns will be able to make his comment
when he wants and questions and art.
You'll understand we have a phone that the three of us are going to share over some of
the most important information that I've ever encountered.
I'm going to start with an area that I think that probably Dreamland listeners would like
to know something about first and then evolve into these much larger amazing issues and
that is to have Colonel Corso talk to us about his experience at Fort Riley, Kansas back
in 1947 when he himself saw what is called an extraterrestrial biological entity.
This is Colonel Corso.
Colonel, welcome to the program.
Yes, thank you.
Colonel, you saw an extraterrestrial at Fort Riley, Kansas.
Yes.
I want to explain to you how that happened.
I came back from Italy, and I was in the Pentagon, and I asked for an assignment, and they gave me an assignment in Fort Riley.
It was garrison duty, and I knew they had garrison duty, and I enjoyed it very much later.
But one particular night, I was the post-duty officer.
A lot of people seem confused on what that means, not being in the military.
That particular night, I was in charge of almost all security, the guards, the wharf, and all the buildings in the post.
All night long, till morning.
Sure.
I wore a sidearm, and I wore a band on my arm identifying me as a post duty officer.
What rank were you then?
I was a lieutenant colonel.
Lieutenant colonel.
And one of my primary duties was to inspect the guard to make sure they were all on duty in the right places In fact, one of my duties on the lighter note, I had an instruction book where I made the notes and my report that I gave to the general the next morning.
One of the lighter notes was, somebody had written in there, and make sure at one o'clock in the morning you close the officer club up and throw all the drunks out.
That was written in by hand by somebody.
I knew, I was told, they were sent to their area in one of the veterinarian areas.
Now we had horses into them.
So about three in the morning, two or three in the morning it was, I went down, I was doing my rounds of the guards and I stopped in this particular guard and the master sergeant that I knew very well, I used to bowl with him at the field house, was the sergeant of the guard.
And I told him, Sergeant, how you doing?
Is everything quiet?
And he said, yes, sir.
He said, I told me I was pretty sensitive earlier tonight, so I want you to stay alert and your boys alert.
He said, you want to see something, Colonel?
And yes, I walked in the back room with him, and I lifted the end of the tarp up, and here was this body floating in some sort of liquid.
And it was a strange thing.
It was a small body.
I thought it was a child.
First, when I looked at the head and so forth, and the arms, and I saw it wasn't a child.
It was a great color.
And then I put the tarp back down.
Now all this lasted, I'd say, fifteen seconds or so.
Fifteen seconds.
Long enough to recall details?
I was an intelligence officer and I was known to have a good retention on what I saw.
So the face was, the head was large, but not as large as most drawings show.
It was in large proportion of a small body.
No ears, no nose, no mouth, slits on me.
And the eyes were large, slanted, large compared to our eyes, but not great large eyes.
The arms were sort of spindly and the legs were sort of spindly.
How big would you say this creature was?
Oh, it wasn't even five feet tall.
In fact, I thought it was a small child when I first saw it.
I sort of turned my stomach a little bit, but this was a normal reaction even in combat
areas when I saw people mowed down by artillery firing.
I get the same feeling and usually you recover fast because you almost have to when you are
in a command of troops.
And I recovered fast and I figured well I don't know what it is, I can't evaluate it,
so like a good intelligence officer, and I was trained by the British by the way, I put
it in the back of my head and I figured someday, some place maybe I'll get cooperation and
be able to evaluate this for what it is.
And from then on I forgot about it until something came out to bring it back.
Let me ask you one other question, Colonel.
Surely, you and the sergeant must have had a conversation.
I told the sergeant this.
Sergeant, get out of here.
Get out of this room.
You could get in a lot of trouble.
I'm the post-duty officer.
I have all the clearance.
Of course, it's my duty to look around like this.
But you're not supposed to be in here, so get out in the early sergeant in front of me.
Okay.
And then I asked him this question, a very important question.
As we were walking out, I told him, Sergeant, where did it come from?
He said, Well, I talked to the drivers.
There were two men in each car, two soldiers in each truck.
There were five trucks total.
And he said that it came from some airfield in Fort Riley, they said, and they're heading
up right there to an Air Force base.
And that was all he said.
He didn't describe Roswell or the base here.
It said an Army Air Force base in New Mexico.
And that was all he told me.
Okay.
I'd say about two weeks after it happened here.
I was assigned that about a month before in Fort Raleigh.
And this was in a veterinary office?
Well, we had veterinarians and that was a logical place to keep some of this.
Sure.
And so after that experience, you just sort of filed it away for future Yes, sir.
Because intelligence processes collect, evaluate, corroborate, and then come forward with your report.
That's exactly what I did.
I didn't know what it was.
So I put it in the back of my head.
And here's Linda back.
All right.
Art?
Yes?
I just want to help you because the timelines here, we need to stay on top of.
That was 1947.
Right.
And I'm just going to, for just a moment, give some background that Colonel Philip Corso He was a key Army intelligence officer who served on General MacArthur's staff in Korea and later on President Dwight D. Eisenhower's National Security Council as a Lieutenant Colonel.
During his 21-year military career, he was honored with 19 medals, decorations, and ribbons for meritorious service.
He retired from the Army in 1963 after three extraordinary years from 1960 to 1963, working
directly with Lieutenant General Arthur Trudeau in the Pentagon concerning this whole issue
now from 1947 to 1960.
General Corso had had that one experience of seeing this extraterrestrial biological
entity at Fort Riley on its way to Wright-Patterson.
Patterson.
Now let's jump to 1960.
And for a moment, what I'd like to do is turn the phone... Linda, we're right at the bottom of the hour.
After we come back, I want William Burns to set the stage here for one of the most extraordinarily important points in United States history.
One other thing that I want to touch on, put it on your list of things to ask.
An obvious question, Linda, is after all those years, why is Colonel Corso coming forward now And is his retirement threatened by doing so?
I mean, an obvious question.
And what kind of struggle he went through before he decided to write such a book?
Yes, and it's exactly what I was leading to for Mr. Burns to explain how this could come about now, Colonel Corso not being in jeopardy.
Excellent.
We will pick up on that point.
Mexico, Linda?
Hi, Art.
Hi.
In the mid-eighties, when I first heard that phrase, Earth Secret War, and what in the world was it about, I always thought that it was simply something of an inside unit in our government versus whatever the non-human intelligence was.
What I'm beginning to understand in my conversations with Colonel Corso and William Burns is that it was a very much more complex and dicey situation in which the military was perceiving that they were having To operate as if not only did they not understand a non-human intelligence that Colonel Corso described in his own book, they knew that there were animal mutilations and human abductions in the late 1950s, early 1950s, late 1940s, somewhere in that period, that they felt that they had to be concerned about, but they were also concerned about their Cold War enemies and this intense
Suspicion of spies in the Central Intelligence Agency and other agencies.
And this sets the stage for the period of 1960 to 63.
And I'm going to read briefly from the book.
In 1961, Colonel Corso, then a lieutenant colonel, was given command of one of the Pentagon's highly classified weapons development budgets and was made privy to the United States government's greatest secret, colon.
The dismantling and appropriation of the Roswell extraterrestrial spacecraft by the United States Army.
Identifying all those involved, Colonel Corso reveals how a deep cover council officially discounted all UFO reports to the American public and cleared the path for his research and development team at the Pentagon to analyze and integrate the Roswell artifacts into the military arsenal and the private business sector.
The extent of the operation is startling.
With unprecedented detail, Colonel Corsel divulges how he spearheaded the Army's reverse engineering project that seeded, and that's S-E-E-D-E-D like you would plant seeds, seeded alien technology at American companies such as IBM, Hughes Aircraft, Bell Labs, and Dow Corning without their knowledge.
He describes the devices found aboard the Roswell craft And how they were the precursors for today's integrated circuit chips, fiber optics, lasers, and super tenacity fibers.
He also discusses the role alien technology played in shaping geopolitical policy and events.
How it helped the United States surpass the Russians in space, spurred elaborate army initiatives such as SDI, which is the Star Wars program, Project Horizon, which we will talk about later in the program, but had to do with putting a base on the moon.
Project Harp, that we have done shows on in the past, and ultimately brought about the end of the Cold War, unquote.
I'm quoting from the day after Roswell.
And now, I am going to go to William J. Burns, the writer with Colonel Corso, to explain what was happening at the time that John F. Kennedy, He was president of the United States for a period of time before he was assassinated.
And during those three crucial years, this is William Burns' analysis of this internecine warfare in the world picture.
Hi Art, how are you?
Mr. Burns, welcome to the program.
Thank you very much.
May I go back a little bit before we get going here and ask you how in the world Colonel Corso can now come forward, or at any time can come forward, and be safe.
First of all, Colonel Corso's relationships with the United States government intelligence community within the military are rock solid.
He was an advisor to members of the Senate, an advisor to presidents, and an advisor to generals at the highest level of the military, and not just the Army.
But obviously, General, some other services as well shared in the intelligence that Colonel Corso helped develop during the course of his career.
So, the very people that would be the ones who would look with great disfavor upon what Colonel Corso is doing, were the ones who, during his tenure in office, and not just at the Pentagon, but at the Eisenhower White House, When he was a military commander in the most sensitive area of Europe, the Southern German Command, where he had authority to use field nuclear weapons.
Those very officers, those very intelligence officers, were the ones that he'd been putting in their places for 20 years.
So no, they're not going to come forward now.
This is a war that he's already showed who owns the battlefield on that one.
Can you give me his reasoning Before coming forward, he must have struggled greatly with this before going public.
Yes and no.
And when the time comes, I think the colonel himself is probably a more appropriate person to describe this, but I will tell you what he told me, and then a little later on we can hear it from the colonel in his own words.
Basically, the colonel belonged to a handful of officers led by, from the memoirs that I read of the man himself, written by the man himself, And the Colonel's own memoirs, Lieutenant General Arthur Trudeau, who was probably one of the last of the great combat officers who had a grounding in military technology.
I think it's a breed we don't have anymore.
I don't want to speak for the present leadership, but I'm just saying that when you look at things like the War of the Generals and all the generals bumping heads in the Persian Gulf, and then you see a man like Arthur Trudeau Who, during the Korean War, his men were trapped on Porkchop Hill, and the orders came to abandon the men.
Arthur Trudeau said, hell no, took off his general's helmet, put on a sergeant's helmet, and said, who's coming up with me?
Ran up the hill, took the men, brought them back down, put on his general's helmet, and that was it.
Now that's a hero.
You betcha.
This is a man who fought the CIA, who was blasted by people like Dulles, And who came out on top every single time and led Army Intelligence, and who completely reorganized the Army R&D inside the Pentagon.
Completely reorganized it, to make what this book is about possible.
So, this man and the Colonel were friends well after both men retired.
General Trudeau went on to be a consultant to industry, had his own industrial consulting firm, worked I think for Gulf Oil in Pennsylvania, He was a good friend of the Colonel's for many, many years afterwards.
The two men had an oath.
The oath was very simple.
We will maintain our silence while we're both alive.
When the General was sick, he called the Colonel aside, the two men, two old soldiers.
You have to imagine the scene.
I can.
He said, I'm going to release you from your oath of silence.
You can tell this story.
And that was what it is.
There was no national security oath, no great overriding concern of national security.
This is what two men did inside the army.
So this wasn't as if this was a great military strategy or a great defense strategy.
This operated within the army with a handful of officers.
Nobody else knew about it.
That was the point.
So there was no national security to breach.
Alright, I understand.
Now, to get to Linda's point of this war, I can fully understand that the military would not necessarily want the CIA or other intelligence agencies getting hold of this information, because over the years, we've seen I don't know how many spies caught, moles, that have been passing information, were passing information, went to jail for it, to the then Soviet Union.
So there's no question about that.
I can understand why they would want to keep it out of the hands of the military.
Is that accurate?
Or of the intelligence community?
That's accurate, Art.
It is the very, very tip of the iceberg.
It is only a micro sliver, a membrane sliver of what the real story is, which is much more frightening, much more horrifying.
And when you realize how close this country came to nuclear war on a number of occasions, Because of bad intelligence, mistakes, and false assumptions, you realize how close to the edge we came.
The real story starts even before the end of World War II, with the OSS running around Europe, and with the penetration of the OSS even at that time.
And this is not from Colonel Corso's own words.
These are from words of CIA people themselves.
by NKVD units and Russian playbacks into our own intelligence services.
This was not the military intelligence, this was the civilian intelligence services,
and I want to draw that distinction very early in.
Military intelligence, Army G-2, was separate and distinct from the civilian intelligence services, such as the OSF.
Understood.
Okay, now, so we knew, the Army knew, that even at the end of World War II,
that the Germans had fallen into possession of some kind of extraterrestrial technology.
The burst of strange German technology toward the end of the war was frightening.
We knew that.
We knew that from the scientists that we had retrieved from Germany.
Colonel Corso happened to be one of the military officers who helped run Operation Paperclip When he was the area commander of Rome from 1944 to 1947, fighting off the rear guard Nazi Gestapo, SS units, and the Russian NKVD units posing as communist partisans.
What were they after?
It certainly wasn't Rome, though it was Mussolini's gold.
What it was, were whatever German secrets were available, In Italy, and Switzerland, and the whole area at that time.
And remember, there was another person coming into the scene working for the OSF at that time, Merle Berg, who also went through looking for whatever atomic secrets he could.
Again, all documented, no big military secrets here.
The secret is that Phil Corso was one of the people involved in the military, and a paperclip.
The German scientist told the army, told Corso, told Trudeau, told other people in the military, That the Germans had been in possession of extraterrestrial secrets.
So the military intelligence end, as well as the OSS, as well as the Russians, as well as the British, knew that the Germans had stumbled upon a stockpile of phenomenal technology.
This is setting the stage for what happened before the Roswell crash in 1947 with the split Between the military and the civilian intelligence services, when the National Security Act was passed, under Truman, creating, in effect, the first fully functional, full-time civilian intelligence service, which operated under a black budget, under the National Security Act, separate and distinct from direct and explicit congressional oversight.
The Army, the Navy, eventually the Air Force, had intelligence services that were operated under congressional oversight and military oversight.
They operated in plain view.
But this new service was totally secret.
It was a secret government.
What the Truman administration did not know was that prior to this creation of the Superintelligence Agency, its own command structure had been infiltrated by communist sympathizers.
And I'm not saying it's like some right-wing fanatic from the 1950s.
I'm saying this as a matter of history, because the CIA officers themselves said this, have been infiltrated by Communist sympathizers, and in many instances, NKVD moles themselves.
We created an intelligence service, separate from Congressional oversight, almost immune, operating with impunity, that had already been compromised, and nobody knew it, except the military.
Mr. Burns, was there an operational name for this organization?
Well, originally the organization was the Central Intelligence Group, the CIG, run by
Admiral Roscoe Hillencutter.
Remember his name, because where did Hillencutter turn up after the Roswell crash?
It was the Central Intelligence Group, which eventually became, eventually, the CIA.
Which now has Colonel Corso, who was serving his time as a range officer, commanding a
missile battalion in White Sands, then going to the most sensitive area of Germany, then
serving as Inspector General.
Toward the end of the Ivanhower administration, there was a restructuring going on.
Bye.
General Trudeau had reorganized the entire Army R&D after he left G-2, and this began in 1959.
Yes, I'm sorry, I'll have to correctly suggest that G-2 is Army Intelligence.
And Lieutenant General Trudeau was the commander of intelligence.
He reorganized R&D.
Remember, he was an engineer.
And so he reorganized Army R&D when he took over in 1959.
The colonel who's a scholar on Army R&D, on the history of this, will tell you that originally Army R&D had a minor function under logistics.
Even General Twining himself, again a name we remember from the Roswell crash, had suggested that the study of UFOs, and this is his words, not mine, the study of flying saucers, the analysis of what it is, be given to foreign technology under R&D.
This is what Twining himself said, all the way back in the late, after 1947, and in the early 50s.
But on the R&D, military R&D wasn't up to snuff.
Not until General Trudeau reorganized it in 69.
He had requested when 59, Colonel Corset, correct me, when the Colonel came back to the United States after his tour of duty in Germany, General Trudeau requested that in 1961, he report to the Pentagon, this is shortly after the inauguration of John F. Kennedy, he report to the Pentagon to take over.
The situation was, however, that by the time the Colonel arrived at the Pentagon, It would become even more urgent.
The army was sitting on material that had been basically housed in the Pentagon in some way, shape, or form for 14 years.
Mr. Burns, there's a couple of things I'm unclear about.
Go ahead.
One is an astounding revelation that the Germans had... You're suggesting the Germans had alien technology before we did.
What I'm suggesting is that the Germans themselves told us that they had alien technology before the end of World War II.
Yes.
That would have been prior to our acquisition of any of that.
That's correct.
Herman Oberth, who was on Colonel Corso's, basically his ad hoc brain trust inside R&D, told the Colonel directly.
The Germans had that technology.
Do we know how they acquired it?
I just want to put one thing in here.
It was Herman Oberth who was referenced in the very important Kehoe books as having knowledge of researching where the source of this non-human intelligence might be.
It was Herman Oberth who was talking to Kehoe right from that whole period of time that Kehoe wrote about and if everybody would go back and read Kehoe books It would begin to see that the pattern of what Colonel Corso and William Burns are describing right now is laid out in another direction.
All right, Linda, but my question is this.
Maybe we can get a simple answer.
It is suggested or said that the Germans had alien technology before we did.
And my question is simply, can anybody describe to me how the Germans acquired that?
Or do we simply know they have it and we don't know how they got it?
I'll tell you just one brief thing and then I'll turn it over to Burns again that I was told by people during that 83-84 time period when I was working on that HBO project and after that meeting with Dodie at Kirtland that the story went back to 1937 that the Germans had retrieved either a craft or portions of a craft with technology that our government was extremely concerned about But proving exactly what was retrieved by the Germans, and under what conditions, I do not know the details, and I'm going to turn it back to Mr. Burns to make a comment, and then we'll go to the Colonel.
Alright.
So, imagine the stage being set.
The Army knows the Germans have utilized alien technology.
The Army retrieved alien technology from the crash at Roswell in 1947.
Nothing at all was done with it.
Maybe there was some sort of attempts from the original storehouse at Wright Field to try to farm it into industry to analyze this, but nothing formal, no plan, no strategy.
Something else was happening in the late 1950s as well, and the early 1960s during this period.
It was that The FBI had been receiving strange reports of abductions.
Now, when you look at this logically from a law enforcement perspective, where would reports of abductions normally go?
I mean, you certainly wouldn't go running around to too many psychiatrists.
People would think you're crazy.
Yes.
But people who reported being taken from their homes called the police.
Well, that's a federal crime.
So the police would turn it over to the FBI.
So the FBI...
Spook the hell out of J. Edgar Hoover, the FBI begins compiling reports in an organized way on abduction.
They're not saying alien abductions.
They're not saying UFOs.
They're not saying flying... In other words, at this point, the FBI doesn't know what the hell's going on.
They're investigating.
Nobody knows what's going on.
That's the whole point.
Alright.
This is a complete crowd of unknowing.
Alright, Ms.
Burns, we're at the top of the hour.
Everybody gets to rest for a while.
We'll recoup and start again after the news.
Stay right there.
Hey, it's Linda.
Hi, Linda.
Okay, good.
All right, before we go to Colonel Corso to describe exactly what these physical artifacts were in these file cabinets in General Trudeau's offices that Colonel Corso was then given the assignment by the General to try to get into the military-industrial complex research and development projects, I would like William Burns to just go into the details of the relationship a little bit more between the Federal Bureau of Investigation The Army, the Navy, the Air Force, and the Central Intelligence Agency, when John F. Kennedy became President in 1960, and a few months later is when Philip Forso was in the Pentagon talking with General Trudeau about what they had to do in one of the most incredible situations of this internecine warfare within our own government, and here is William Burns to help explain this.
So the stage is set now that it's 1960, and you've got the split between the Civilian Intelligence Services, basically the CIA, which had been penetrated by the KGB, and was really pumping out, through false estimates of intelligence, a Communist Party line, a Soviet line.
You have the military, which knows about this, and you have some senators and government people in the know, and some not in the know.
At this point, you've got reports of these strange abductions reaching the FBI.
Hoover absolutely does not trust the CIA, and in fact, you may know, many of the listeners may know, that as early as the late 1940s, there was a shooting war going on between the CIA and the FBI over spying and over the running of drugs right after the end of the war.
So, there was no love lost between these agencies.
At the same time, At the very same time, these strange reports of cattle and animal mutilations began reaching the local Sheriff's Departments, because they're not doing anything in the middle of New York City.
Where are they?
They're out in the West.
They're on farmland.
They're on cattle ranches.
Sheriffs get these reports.
What do they do?
They begin compiling them, turning them over to the State Departments of Public Safety in places like Texas, Colorado, Wyoming.
Eventually, they reach the FBI.
What is the FBI supposed to do?
Well, when they go to the CIA for help, it's like throwing something into a bottomless pit.
Nothing comes out, and the agencies aren't talking to each other anyway.
But the Army begins compiling these reports, because where else can the FBI go?
It is now the spring of 19... It is now just after January of 1961.
There was a full-scale war going on inside the Beltway between the civilian intelligence,
i.e. the CIA, and the military intelligence.
The three military services, Army, Navy, Air Force, all have their own separate R&D divisions.
Trudeau effectively organizes the Army into the most powerful R&D division that exists,
and this, in the midst of this warfare, is where Colonel Corso comes to begin his stint
as the Director of Foreign Technology for the very same division named by Nathan Twining
a decade earlier to be the repository of the alien artifacts.
We're all in this together.
Phew!
JFK and RFK have just taken office.
A completely new administration.
They are not well liked by the intelligence community.
They are not well liked because they are obviously very fraternal.
And remember, they come to power.
This administration comes to power under a cloud of suspicion to begin with.
Because of the whole Cook County vote and what happened in the final hours of the electoral count to get them into office in the first place.
Lyndon Johnson, as you know, also made many, many political deals to gain favor in the Senate and to reach power.
And the Johnson family became very, very powerful in Texas, strong ties to the FBI.
So this is an administration which comes in under a real cloud of suspicion.
All right.
Okay.
All right.
And so that sets the stage.
And now from Colonel Corso, I presume, we should ask what he found in these General Trudeau's cabinets.
Okay.
Well, before we even get to that, remember the first thing that JFK and RFK are faced with when they reach office is they are dealing with the information coming to support the Bay of Pigs.
Right.
So they immediately run afoul of the CIA In the very early days of the administration, because if they pull back from the Bay of Pigs, infuriate the emigre Cuban community in the United States, would also infuriate the whole civilian intelligence apparatus.
I'm sure.
And when he removed Alan Dulles from the CIA, a long-time political hand in government, He also further angers the CIA, and the war is now exacerbated, and that's what happens, Colonel Corso.
Well, the only word I would think of would be betrayal.
They would feel betrayed.
That's right, and they're betrayed, and at the center of this whole warfare is the stockpile of information and technology retrieved from Roswell sitting in the Pentagon.
Alright.
And here is Colonel Corso.
Corso to describe what he physically saw handled in these file drawers in General Trudeau's office.
All right.
Colonel Corso.
Yeah, I'm on now.
Welcome back.
All right.
They have set the stage well, and so there you are, working for General Trudeau.
Is that correct?
Yes.
And what did you find, and how did... Your own words, sir.
Yes.
Well, just let me go back a little bit.
When General Trudeau said he was going to send for me, he told me this.
He came over to visit Germany.
And when I came back, he sent for me.
The chief of personnel called me.
I went in to General Trudeau, and I slid in.
He said, are you on board, Phil?
I said, yes.
He said, watch things for me, Phil.
The rest I don't understand.
And it was what Bill Burns has just described to you, what he meant, really.
So he made me his special assistant.
Then about, oh, I'd say a week or ten days passed, and I was appointed to the Foreign Technology Division.
When I moved in the Foreign Technology Division, just shortly after that, General Trudeau called me and said, I'm delivering a file cabinet to you.
He said, you go through it, and you start working up a plan of action and recommendations to me.
Without telling you what was in it?
No, no.
He didn't tell me what was in it.
Boy, later on, I used to joke a lot when they came into my office and they'd say,
�Where's Corso's junk file or his nut file?� Because the items were actually on my desk and they looked
like I picked them out of a wastebasket or something.
And he used to kid about that, but then he'd also get serious and say, �If only they
could change our lives, change the world.� In one particular case, I didn't talk to the general.
I had the integrated circuit chips for about like a quarter.
And I mentioned to him, I told him, �General, what's going to happen in the future if this
chip, which was one of the most important things we had, I'd say number one just about,
ever integrates with the human brain?� Bye.
And he looked and he said, yes, Phil, that's a great danger.
But let's hope the people who come after us will understand.
He said, but I doubt it's going to happen in our lifetime.
Well, he died.
I'm still here.
And they're working on that now.
Now, in addition to that, When I started to go through the file, I found the first thing I had was a piece of metal about the size of a postcard and paper thin, but the atoms were lined in it.
And this came from Livermore Lab, which was one of the laboratories we financed up in MIT.
And he called me in and he said, I'm making you head of a team.
You will get in on the engineers and even the German scientists and I did assign two
to my team and they worked with me.
So the job was to go around the industry, the first of them, and see who was working
on such items.
So we did, we started to go to industry.
In other words, IBM, the big ones who were working on it.
These came in, as a matter of fact, this particular one I'm talking about is the alignment of
atoms.
So one day when we went to one of these industries and they had a long tunnel-like thing, and
at the end of the day, right after supper, I motioned to one of the German engineers,
I told him, I want to take a walk with me.
I went to walk with him and I told him, what do you think?
He said, Colonel, if I believe everything I've heard today, I have to unlearn everything I've ever learned.
So I told him, Hans, you might have to.
He just stopped.
He said, I'll remember what you said.
So from then on, and then on through there when he assigned me as head of that team,
made the statement, this could be bigger than Los Alamos because it could make spaceships
light as a feather, can be penetrated by radiation, cosmic action.
No gunshot could penetrate it.
You're referring to the metal.
A piece of metal, yeah, I'm still there.
So we worked on it, but I have to end with a note on that piece of metal.
We didn't succeed as much as we tried, and he gave me instructions.
If you think they're beginning the process, fund it.
In other words, let me be straight, Colonel.
You took this to a private corporation, and you, in essence, said, can you duplicate this, or can you make this, or can you back-engineer it?
And they tried and failed.
We all failed.
We financed it, even.
Anybody we assigned it to or we thought was getting close to it, it never did, let's say, happen.
All right, this piece of metal came from where?
The crash at Roswell, or did you not know?
No, I knew it.
The file I had had the papers with it describing it.
And where did it come from?
It came from Roswell.
Roswell.
Then we moved to the integrated circuit, the size of a chip.
Then Yano Trudeau gave me instructions.
Find out who in the industry is working on similar, like the transistors already started.
Right.
He said, any scientists that are working on it, write me a plan of action on how we're going to do all this.
So I finally came up with a plan and gave it to him.
He located that we would find scientists and people who are working in that area, particular area.
And we would infuse in there normal research and development proposals.
Not the item itself, but proposals describing it.
These are supposed to be normal R&D think tank type corporations.
In other words, you would come up with a proposal that would suggest, for example, what about the concept of developing an integrated circuit, an IC circuit, miniaturized?
Yes, along that line we came up.
And how did you get that, Colonel, to the industry leaders?
Well, General Trudeau started the program, what we called Applied Engineering.
And even Dr. Teller was in on that, and he's still alive.
And this Applied Engineering, here's exactly what we did.
We found out people were working in that area.
We infused the technology in this through R&D projects, and we funded it.
They didn't use our money.
We funded the project.
And then every time we thought they were slowing down, we would infuse maybe a little more, and then finally the chip went over to them.
All of this black budget money?
No, no, this was not black budget.
This was R&D money.
R&D money?
This was money appropriated by Congress.
Alright.
Now, in addition to that, let me tell you this since you asked about budget.
There's such a thing as R and D, T and E operation.
That was research, development, and R, D, T and E, yes.
And these type of programs were that the first item made, we would go and check where it was done.
Yes, sir.
The first budget that came in was the prototype.
And I tell them, when the first prototype comes off the line, I'll be there to check it.
You bet.
Many times it wasn't, and I even threatened sometimes I had authority to cancel contracts.
Now, since the first item, an R, D, T, and E, was still in the R and D, and we financed that with our budget.
Again, not a black budget, an open budget, voted by Congress.
Because remember, the projects that went out were normal research and development contracts.
They weren't subrosa or anything like that, or any say we can't tell you enough.
We put them out in essence.
And this program started to operate.
Then one day, I pulled out a file.
I thought they were wires and they were emitting colors.
There must have been some sort of circuit in there or some sort of power source.
I had no idea what it was.
I didn't know if it was a wire or something plastic, but finally we got people working
on solar power.
In fact, lately I talked to some scientists who were in that area and this was infused
in, and I think one of the ones that was infused in was Bell Laboratory.
From that, cyber-optics developed.
Fiber optics?
Yes.
Now, also, let me get back to a little story on the chip, on the integrated circuit.
Alright, may I stop you and ask you, the material in those filing cabinets, was that all from Roswell?
It was from Roswell, but I, um, and sometimes I got the idea that some of it maybe came from the St.
Augustine crash out here.
Alright.
Anyway, you were going back to the chip?
Yeah, I'm going back to the chip now.
That was One of our really number one imports.
I found in my file a file I had in there that was labeled Project Rainbow.
Project Rainbow was John von Neumann's project.
I read it and it was amazing.
He was starting to work on artificial intelligence, artificial life.
How did you even decide where to take any item that you might have touched?
Here's what happened.
the organization, the money, the brain, people would do it.
I didn't, I put it away because I really didn't understand it to tell you the truth.
I didn't understand everything that I had.
In fact, many times I thought we weren't that brilliant.
How did you even decide where to take any item that you might have touched?
Here's what happened.
General Trudeau made it a point to contact most of the industries in the Fortune 500.
He personally went to visit 25 of the boards.
In fact, to give you a little story, I went with him to Sperry Rand.
We met the board.
In fact, who came out and met us was McArthur himself.
He was chairman of the board up there.
I thought myself, and you know, too, that was a great honor when McArthur came out to see us.
I was president of him in Korea.
In fact, I was standing there with them, both of them, and they were asking me questions and a little story.
I wonder how this happened to me.
The greatest soldier we ever had, the most brilliant soldier, and they asked him eight questions.
It doesn't make sense.
You never actually transferred materials.
You transferred ideas.
Well, at certain stages we did.
Well, you did.
At certain stages.
But it had to progress.
For example, General Trudeau told me one day, getting back to the integrated circuit, he said, Phil, the transistor, the way it is today, and the integrated circuit, It took us five years to develop.
It should have taken 250 years.
Those were the exact words to me.
Now on Newman's project, maybe one of the reasons I did look confused and we couldn't
do it was really the supercomputer had not come into existence yet.
It had become an assertion to late years.
And maybe I had some intuition not to fund this and start because we really were not
and permission to exploit this and develop it.
Supercomputers had not been developed at that stage.
But they were working on it.
And I'll tell you another interesting little story.
I had what we called a super-plastic fiber.
It looked like string.
But you couldn't burn it, you couldn't cut it with a razor blade.
And we found out that the atom structure was aligned in them.
The what?
The atom structure?
Yes.
Atomically aligned, just like the piece of metal.
Just like the metal?
Now, that is a strange little story here, an interesting little story.
So what did we find?
The nearest thing on this Earth to that was a spider web.
A spider spins an atomically aligned web.
Alright, Colonel, hold it right there for a moment.
We're going to take a break here at the bottom.
I'm sure he must have agonized before coming forward.
It's me, Art, and I couldn't agree with your words more.
He is truly an American hero, along with General Trudeau and many others at that period of time when it was so difficult to know exactly what to do with all the complexities we're talking about tonight.
And before the Colonel continues with his fascinating story about the government's, his R&D interest in the spiderweb, I wanted to quote from his book.
And this had to do with the autopsies on the creatures that were retrieved from some crash somewhere in New Mexico.
The medical report revealed that the creatures were enclosed within a one-piece protective covering like a jumpsuit or outer skin in which the atoms were aligned so as to provide a great tensile strength and flexibility.
One examiner wrote that it reminded him of a spider's web.
Which appears very fragile, but is in fact very strong.
Linda?
Yeah?
It sounds an awful lot like the aliens depicted in Independence Day.
Well, these are the outer garments.
I understand, but if you recall on Independence Day, they had an outer... Yes.
Uh-huh.
Yes, you're right.
Yes.
And, uh, how much of fiction is, uh, actually copying non-fiction because of leaks, we'll probably never know, but you're right.
You're making a very good point.
Well, the unique qualities of a spiderweb result from the alignment of fibers that provide great tenacity because they're able to stretch under great pressure, yet display a resiliency that allows them to snap back into shape even after the shock of an impact.
Similarly, the creature's spacesuit or outer skin appeared to be stretched around it as if it were literally spun over the creature I'm back on.
Yes, Colonel.
Welcome back.
Now, to finish this spiderweb story, these spiderwebs, you could stretch them for miles.
years had never seen anything like it before, and now here is Colonel Corso to continue
this exploration of spiderwebs and masks.
I'm back on.
Yes Colonel, welcome back.
Now to finish the spiderweb story, these spiderwebs, you could stretch them for miles.
They had like a hook type arrangement when they were spun with a line and it would stretch.
You just stretch it for miles and it would break it and then it would snap back in place.
So what we did, because of its strength and tenacity, we made flight jackets out of it.
And they worked very well.
But the problem was we couldn't get enough spiderwebs.
So we gave a contract out, the first one I remember, and this by the way appeared in
the Discovery Magazine story not too long ago, which I cut out.
We financed the University of Wyoming.
We want them to try to clone the spider.
But... I'm sorry, I missed that.
Colonel, you wanted them to what?
Clone the spider.
Oh, clone the spider.
So we could get enough material to make flight jackets.
Understood.
But we never succeeded, and they never succeeded until today.
I don't think it's been done.
So we had to go to other fibers like Kevlar and the way the flight jackets are made today.
Yeah.
But it all began with that file drawer material.
Yes.
That came out of my file drawer.
May I ask a question, Colonel, that jumps way ahead?
Sure.
What happened to all the material that was in that file drawer?
Where is that material now?
Well, really, I don't know.
Some people have asked me at times, did you keep any?
You could have kept some and made millions.
But wait a minute.
I was an Army officer.
Oh, I understand.
It belonged to me.
I understand.
It was the Army's.
So in other words...
An intelligence and sovereign security is the one that should keep the people from killing things in the army.
I understand, so when you left, you wouldn't have any idea of its chain of custody?
No, I just turned it back over.
Just like, I can tell you this, I didn't know the chain of custody even before I got it.
So I never, and then actually when I retired, I wasn't even in the army anymore, and I have no idea today.
I asked some officers not too long ago that I know Yes.
I told them what I thought the file could be, but it's up to somebody else to track
it down because I can't do it, I'm not in the army anymore.
One of the other units or pieces in this amazing file cabinet that Colonel Corso had, in the
book he raises this.
He said, why did the inhabitants of the craft have a cutting device that when they had it
they could see that there was some kind of a red dot coming out of a black piece that
they had, one of these file cabinet technologies they did not understand and they didn't know
what it was.
And he said, well, I don't know.
And finally, one time that they saw some smoke in the room, and suddenly they could see this red beam of light, and of course what I'm describing is what we now know as a laser, they didn't know.
He said, why did the inhabitants of this craft have a cutting device like this aboard their ship?
It wasn't until later when I read military reports of cattle mutilations in which entire organs were removed without any visible trauma to the surrounding cell tissue that I realized that the light beam cutting torch I thought was in the Roswell file was actually a surgical implement just like a scalpel that was being used by the aliens in medical experiments on our livestock, unquote.
I would like now to turn the phone back to Colonel Corso to describe his first handling of this device.
Well, my first handling was, I had another device that was similar to this.
And of course, like a human doesn't know any better, I figured the batteries are dead.
I couldn't turn it on.
And there was no batteries in it.
But that was the first reaction of a typical reaction of a human that doesn't know anything.
Would have been mine.
And later on, well it was mine, too, and I was in charge, but later on, like the other little instrument I had, which I think measured the intensity of burning waves on different organs of the body, that particular thing, I thought it, the battery was dead in that also, and I took it to a lab down at Belvoir, and lo and behold, when some radiation area, I went in, that thing came on.
When you went into an area where there was radiation?
Well, there was actually, we had low level radiation because that was our atomic lab, the one we kept and they didn't take away from us.
And so when it got into that area, it turned on?
It turned on.
Of course it had graduated, and I shipped out to Monmouth also because they were our electronic labs.
Yes sir.
And there I didn't, it wasn't an RD project because they were our labs and they were military.
And I never did get a Because I left after, well not too long after, when General Trudeau retired six months later, I did.
Then I shipped it to them, and that was those two interesting little items.
And the laser, then the second most important thing after the circuits, I think we did, was our development of lasers.
A lot of people believe that the laser was started before, well there were experiments before, yes, way back.
But the thing blossomed and took hold on lasers.
In 1960, and even General Beach, who took General Pluto's place, made that remark in public.
When you turned that device over?
I turned them over to Monmouth.
Electronic labs.
Yes, sir.
Yeah.
They were electronic labs.
And then also... Did you then follow the progress of the back engineering?
Yes, I followed them for a time, but then... Now, also another thing, I better inject this right now.
Much as it seems now when they read the book and all, that people think how important they are shaking, this was not my primary job.
This was like a secondary job.
What was your primary job?
Well, my primary job was special assistant chief R&D, for example, budgets.
And I was the first project officer on the anti-missile missile.
Trudeau assigned that to me, the importance of it, because the brain from the extraterrestrial could be It had four lobes that could integrate back and forth electromagnetically, and we did similar work at our ICBMs, our International Continental Missiles.
So we did that, and we used these items on that.
We went along that line.
And then, I'll jump ahead a little bit, we had what we call, well, a laser developed We had to be very careful with that weapon we developed when we were gunning the Star Wars.
Actually, the weapon, Doo Weapon, could go 300,000 kilometers a second, and airplane travel must be to sound.
There was no lead time.
I think they calculated they would travel one millimeter before the ray hit it.
What weapon was this?
Doo Weapon.
Direct energy weapon.
Direct energy weapon.
We had to be careful.
It was dangerous.
One dot there.
He wrote an article that I have a copy of, a little paragraph, he said, the most frightening thing in my life happened to me.
My eyes popped out and started to bleed inside.
He said, I've never had such a frightening experience and it came from looking at the ray.
So we had to be careful with these things too because we didn't know all the, what it would do all together.
So this was what was later developed in the DEW Weapon.
And also we found out a very serious thing during that period.
In fact, the project officer that took my place as Special Projects Officer on the anti-missile missile, he came to me one day and he said, Phil, he was a colonel too, he said, we got an awful thing.
He said, the Soviets can change its trajectory, there should be missiles in mid-air.
Oh my God, we'd better go to Trudeau, the General, right now.
That was a little frightening, because if we couldn't hit him, look what danger we were in.
Of course.
So that became a crash project.
And the answer was really the new weapon.
Direct energy weapon.
Because it could get so fast, so quick on the target.
That it wouldn't matter how it moved.
You couldn't evade it.
Like our radars, like the radars I had at Red Canyon here, and White Sands, on my Nike missiles.
We had a pencil beam that could lock on.
Uh, Colonel, uh, was this some sort of electromagnetic pulsing weapon?
It was a, it was a, similar to, it was, it came from the laser family, let's put it that way.
Uh-huh.
I have the pamphlets, the pamphlets I have that the Army sent me, non-classified, I have them, uh, with me.
Uh, they were, they're all dated 1961, 62, and 63.
So, that's, And then also there was another thing which I tell you happened, this is an interesting little story.
I have a pamphlet written by General Britton, head of Army Materiel Command, in 1963.
On the front page there's a photograph of a cart we built, a three-wheeled cart.
Yes.
This three-wheeled cart, we took the integrated circuit, and instead of putting electricity in it, we put water in it.
The cart ran on water.
And when I told Senator Glenn this, he got so interested I had to give him the photograph, And tell him, Senator, it was right up here, Harry Diamond Lab in North Park, Washington, Adelphia.
Maybe you can call them up and see if it's still there.
A process, was it utilizing hydrogen?
No, no, no.
Water.
Yes, but the hydrogen from the water.
Well, I don't know if it broke down to that.
It was still liquid.
It wasn't, it didn't turn to gas.
It didn't turn to gas.
And I gave it to Senator Glenn.
In fact, I particularly mean that to Senator Glenn.
There was an interesting comment that comes out of that.
I asked the Senator, and I think he'll verify it, because I had the appointment for half an hour, and he spent an hour and a half with me, and he had people waiting.
I mentioned flying saucers to him, and he said, you know, Colonel, I'm an agnostic.
I told him, but Senator, you didn't say you don't believe, and he laughed.
For the first time, I sent to the Army, Army Historical Branch Engineers.
And I told them where it was and what it was, and they'd look it up and send me a copy.
This was Project Horizon, the military colony on the moon, which we did in 1959.
A military colony on the moon?
It's the appendix.
Fifty pages of it is the appendix in my book.
In fact, the first moon lander, there's a photograph of it in there.
We did that.
We had some of the best brains in the country, I think, working on it, brown scientists and all.
And when Defense found out that, they took the civilian top, took Everything away from us and organized NASA, they killed it on us.
We were never able to do anything on it.
I declassified for General Trudeau and it lay there in the files for years.
But what you're suggesting, Colonel, is that we had spacecraft and the ability to colonize the moon, which you're saying we did, and at the same time we were developing a space program that, as compared to it, was like a Model A to the modern day weather.
It was the poor weather of Germany and the other satellite.
Lately, a friend of mine, a scientist, met with NASA's top people, and he threw Project Horizon, the 310 pages on the table, and they were flabbergasted!
After all these years!
It was dead in the files until I pulled... In fact, if you look in the appendix of the book, in the front page of Horizon, you'll see right on top, where it's secret, and it's crossed off.
The secret is crossed off, because I declassified that for the General.
And this is the first appearance it makes in public.
Project Horizon.
And, uh, that went on for how many years?
Well, they cleared on us in about 1961.
The Department of Defense just said nothing to them.
No appropriation, nothing.
Forget it.
Could it have continued, Colonel, without your knowledge?
It didn't continue.
No, I had no knowledge.
No, I mean, we trusted each other.
We talked many times.
I lived in Oregon, Virginia.
I was close by.
I saw these boys.
No, it did not continue.
Why would a project capable of putting a colony on the moon not continue?
Well, I think Bill Burns testified.
He came out with this.
A battle of, let's say, territory, or whatever you want to call it, of appropriations over there.
It was a terrific battle going on inside the government, which people didn't know about.
And this thing, let's say, got caught in the battle.
They didn't like the Army.
They didn't like us, the civilian heads.
I mean, out of the military, you know.
They didn't like us very much, and they wanted to pull us down.
And anything we did was try to take it away from us.
And unfortunately, this project, With the moon lander in there.
A picture of the moon lander.
It's in there.
They just destroyed it on us.
They made us quit.
Stop.
We got orders of no more.
And the project died.
And there's all the photographs.
In fact, right here she has right in her hand a book.
What's the page number?
Colonel, why don't you hand the phone to Linda Howe for just one moment if you will, sir.
Alright, Linda, two things very quickly.
I'm trying to make sense of all this.
The electromagnetic, the direct energy weapon he mentioned, in my mind, might translate to an electromagnetic pulsing weapon.
And as you know, in STS-48 and 80, we see things occurring that look very much like an electromagnetic pulsing weapon.
Right.
Point one.
Point two, I'm finding it very hard to understand how a project that colonized the moon uh... prior to our
or as our space program was just getting off the ground could have possibly
been dropped by even with budget wars going on or the uh... you know using that technology to have done
all that and then just drop the project
yet and i'm going to and just a few minutes and when it transferred it back
to mister burns to explain that art but i want you to hear uh... excerpt from the actual now unclassified by
we can't have a car crash though This is a paragraph signed by Arthur G. Trudeau.
About one minute, Linda.
Chief of Research and Development in the Pentagon, I envision Expedition's development of the proposal to establish a lunar outpost to be of critical importance to the United States Army of the future.
This evaluation is apparently shared by the Chief of Staff in view of his expeditious approval and enthusiastic endorsement of initiation of the study.
Which said, there is a requirement for a manned military outpost on the Moon.
The lunar outpost is required to develop and protect potential United States interests on the Moon, to develop techniques in Moon-based surveillance of the Earth and space, in communications relay and in operations on the surface of the Moon, to serve as a base for exploration of the Moon, for further exploration into space, and for military operations on the Moon, if required, And to support scientific investigations on the moon.
When we come back, we'll have... Melinda, I need to understand.
Did the colonel say that we actually did that?
Went to the moon?
Oh, no.
Or only that it was proposed based on the technology we were developing or trying to develop.
Yeah, General Trudeau wanted this done.
And this was all drawn up as a plan, and it was going forward like an extension of General Trudeau getting these artifacts.
I understand.
I understand.
I'm glad... And suddenly, the rug was pulled out from under them.
Okay, I've got it.
Thank you, Linda.
And my guests are Colonel Philip J. Corso, retired, and William J. Burns, as well as, of course, the Linda Malt category.
And Linda, I assume you're on the line?
Yes, and during this break, Art, I learned from the Colonel that tomorrow he will be at Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque signing his books on that military base.
A huge irony after these 50 years.
Certainly.
And the Pentagon in Washington can't keep enough of the books in stock.
And as they both said, if that isn't a signal that this book is full of truth, that people that are the inside today want this book, that is it.
It's astounding.
Linda, I want to read this to you and just see if it resonates.
From Sean in Yucca Valley, I've heard from several people who work in high technology that the carrying capacity of fiber optics is so great That, get this, no future replacement for it is even being considered.
Do you know if it's true?
If it's the case, have you ever heard of another terrestrial-derived technology so robust that further development is deemed unnecessary?
Well, I'm going to have the Colonel try to address that after we had decided that what we would do next, because this is so important, and so many people want to know about the big black eyes, And everybody has probably, listening to this radio program, has seen the controversial Centelli film in which these beings, a surgeon, lifts off a thin black lens off of both eyes and they go somewhere.
I'm going to read to you briefly from Colonel Corso's own words.
I was most interested in the file descriptions accompanying a two-piece set of dark elliptical eyepieces as thin as skin and these are part of this file drawer kind of
stuff.
The Walter Reed pathologist said they adhere to the lenses of the extraterrestrial creatures
eyes and seem to reflect existing light and Walter Reed pathologists are the ones who
did some of the initial autopsies on beings retrieved from New Mexico.
Even in what looked like complete darkness, so as to illuminate and intensify images in
the darkness to allow their wearer to pick out shapes.
The reports had said that the pathologist at Walter Reed Hospital, who autopsied one of the creatures, tried himself to peer through them in the darkness to watch the one or two army sentries and medical orderlies walking down a corridor adjacent to the pathology lab.
These figures were illuminated in a greenish-orange, Depending upon how they moved, but the pathologists could see only their outer shape.
And when they got close to each other, their shapes blended into a single form.
But they could also see the outlines of furniture and the wall and objects on desktops.
Colonel Corso now speaking.
Maybe.
I thought I read this report.
Soldiers could wear a visor that intensified images through the reflection and amplification of available light.
And navigate in the darkness of a battlefield with as much confidence as if they were walking their sentry posts in broad daylight.
But these eyepieces didn't turn night into day.
They only highlighted the exterior shapes of things.
I'm now going to ask the Colonel if he has any further explanation about just the outlining, and then to go on further with this whole issue.
Is fiber optics so advanced But there's nothing else that we know beyond.
Here's Colonel Corso.
Colonel?
I'm back on, then.
All right.
Is the technology Linda just talked about what we now know as night vision?
Yes, yes.
It's imaging intensifiers.
That's night vision.
We call it a night vision lab.
My, my.
Blancas.
It was financed by us in Blancas.
Now, to tell you a little story right at the end of what she just read to you.
General Pringle called me one day and said, Phil, here's an envelope.
It's a budget of the Nigerian Laboratory.
Now you go down with your inspection team, and I took German scientists and engineers, and see how they're doing, how they're progressing.
If you're happy, give them the budget.
So I went to Fort Belvoir, and the colonel who received this told me at the exit interview, he said, we were a little leery when we heard you were coming down.
I told him, is my reputation that bad, or am I a hatchet man?
I don't know.
In this case, it might be a little different.
I told him, you're doing a good job.
And you notice my German friend over there?
He never smiles, but he smiles, so he liked what he saw.
So for a change, I think I'll play Santa Claus.
I told him, take this envelope.
It's yours.
The decision is left to me to give it to you or not.
You're doing a good job.
He opened it up.
It was a $60 million budget.
And I told him, now there's a little hitch to that.
You don't get that free.
The war is heating up in Vietnam.
Give us a night-viewing device in three to six months.
They did.
So that's the little story about the night-viewing device.
And Linda, I read you.
And now also, to go back beyond this, the Germans had an infrared, which was very good.
And we took that.
We also did infuse that.
And I had a great advantage.
Not only did I have the German documents, I had German scientists who could read it and explain it to me.
Colonel, may I stop you and ask you a question?
Yeah, go ahead.
After the war, sir, it is my understanding that there was a general division of German scientists between the United States and Russia.
Do you have knowledge that the Russians got any German scientists who were privy to the same Technology that the Germans had even prior to the war?
Now, I discussed this same problem with some of my German scientists.
They claim that the Russians did get some German scientists, but not of the caliber that we had.
We had, remember, we had Obert.
Oh, yes.
Obert was a genius.
He ranked with Goddard.
We had von Braun.
Actually, Obert was von Braun's boss.
and we had the other Germans, including the two I had on my team.
Now they claim that they knew about a lot of these things, but didn't know enough to
put them into production.
In fact, later in the war they were forced to work on things like this.
But I'm beginning to believe, and from what they said in my interrogation and the year
I spent with them, that the same thing happened over there that happened here.
There were groups of combat officers like we had an affinity between us.
There was no paper trail.
We trust each other just from head to head.
And nothing was ever, nothing in regard because these men were not, you couldn't get these men to talk or say anything.
And we didn't like the elite in our government because we didn't trust them.
And I understand in Germany, there was a similar thing.
The scientists did not like the Nazis.
And I understand that possibly there was the same thing in Russia.
If you read the middle photograph from my book, It shows a picture of General Trudeau and myself standing by the flag.
On my right, I think, is Edward O'Connor.
He was one of Truman's poker-playing buddies, and the expert at the White House on the Soviet at Donetsk, with the same division I was in.
On the other end is Victor Fedai, Library of Congress.
He's one of the top men, and then he went to the Foreign Relations Committee.
He's a great friend of mine, fluent in Russian.
Well, Victor was going to Russia, and I told him, Victor, I'm going to give you some questions to ask.
Would you ask your KGB general some of these questions?
So Victor came back, he said, Phil asked him a question, he looked at him, he said, I know what you want, but Victor, do you want me killed?
Well, that would indicate then they had a similar thing.
You betcha.
Alright, Colonel, I Can't let this interview end without asking you, at the end of your first interview, the exclusive interview you did with Dateline, you made a comment about a time machine.
And they seemed to use that comment of yours as a way to almost try and discredit, you know, the commentator sort of rolled his eyes, to sort of discredit everything else you had said.
So I've got to ask you about that.
May I ask you about that?
Yes.
Well, what did you mean?
In the book, there's a part in there where I discussed this with Professor Obert.
We discussed time travel, but it was a discussion in those days about the possibility of time travel, and even the British were working on this.
I had some documents and things I looked at, but they weren't, and then if you go back to the Philadelphia government, Yes, sir.
There were some ramifications in there, which something disappeared and molded in space.
And even Einstein's theories talk about zero travel time in his theories.
And that was very unfortunate.
When I went to the White House, I didn't go up and see Einstein.
I should have.
And I missed out on talking to the greatest mind that ever lived.
And then I also discussed this with Wilbur Smith, the Canadian genius, who was treated very badly by his government.
and he brought us also a piece of metal.
So as far as that, these factors that I just said enter into this.
But the main item was that I did discuss this with Herman Obert, and Obert thought himself
– now not me, because I didn't know that much about it – his opinion was that it
is possible.
That time travel is possible.
That was Herman Obert.
So then the reference to time travel was, it's something I'll tell you about, and you would have said what you just now said, not that you saw or traveled in time or saw a time machine or anything like it.
I never traveled in time.
I wish I could.
You like to do that.
All right.
I'm glad we cleared that up.
In fact, lately I had an operation in my thumb.
I had a hysteremia, and the doctor pulled it down and put it under mine.
Now I can eat apple pie and ice cream and sleep like a baby.
And I told him, Doc, Would you do?
Push me back 40 years younger?
I haven't been able to do that in 40 years, so maybe I could travel back a little bit.
Well, medically... I'd like very much to travel in time if I could.
Well, I'm glad to have cleared that up, because they were using that to discredit you.
Yeah, they did.
But they didn't ask me.
They have so much good material they never use.
I can understand that, but that's their business.
They're in the business.
I'm not.
So they were free to use what they did.
When you got to see the interview, sir, after it was all done and when it aired, were you surprised at what Did not air?
No, it was not.
Because I testified before the M.I.A.
committees, and I considered from Senator Curry and Senator McMahon and others, and I told them, now the interview that I did, when I talked to President Eisenhower on the prisoner issue, we agreed to cover the intelligence aspect on the spies that they were feeding back, taking our boys' identity.
and then getting the Russian to adopt that identity and sending back to the States as
a spy.
We agree that President Eisenhower never told me the cover that the prisoners were going
to Russia.
In fact, he gave me information and put out the numbers, which I did in Associated Press
and speeches I wrote for large in the United Nations.
Yet the newspapers took the sensational thing that Eisenhower hid the prisoners going to
Russia from the families.
That never happened.
happened. So I have a little experience in this type of reporting.
I understand.
Colonel, earlier I asked your co-author, Ms.
Burns, Bill Burns, what kind of agony and thought process you went through before you came forward with all of this incredible information.
It wasn't really agony.
Let me explain why I decided to write the book.
Please.
First thing, he explained, I had a note with the General.
An honorable, honest, good man.
I was an army officer.
I wasn't about to break my oath to him.
And he released me from my oath, he said, when he died.
Three years ago, unfortunately, he died.
I was released from my oath.
Then I could talk if I wanted to.
I'm criticized by my own son in the family.
He said, 35 years you didn't even tell us.
Why should I tell you?
I had an oath.
Then one day my grandchildren asked me, said, Granddad, what'd you do during the war?
I figured I'd better stop putting this on paper and at least leave them a legacy.
From that, and I was writing my experiences, it evolved into what we have now.
And that's how it came about, and that's really the story, a very simple story.
I didn't go through any agony or anything like that.
No one has ever told me not to talk.
I understand, but this is such incredible information that surely you must have at least considered the impact on society.
Yes.
General Trudeau told me one day, Phil, you and I go from...
One developed with the other, and we take it as a matter of course in our daily work.
Yes.
And we think nothing of it, yet some of these things are earth-shaking.
These were generally those words.
We had to learn to live with that type of thinking.
And it was the same as almost like thinking in combat.
You have to live with it.
I tell people I can tell you what it was like, but I can't tell you how it felt.
You have to be there yourself.
How much of the material, Colonel, that was in those file cabinets ...was developed into products we use today, percentage-wise, versus how much we couldn't... ...was in there that we simply couldn't do anything with.
Very little.
I'd say that we've developed maybe... ...maybe less than 5%.
We've developed some very nice things now for the world.
So, in other words, somewhere, there's still a lot of material that somebody's working very hard on.
Exactly.
I think there is.
Because, like Mr. Burns said, The flying saucer itself is the capacitor.
And the reason a lot of them, the crash, have been trying to build is because they miss out that the extraterrestrial is really the guide system.
It blends with the capacitor.
God, I've heard that from so many sources.
Yeah, and we came to that conclusion also.
In fact, I think one of the greatest things we were remiss that we didn't do more work to study this clone or this creature or whatever he is.
We should have done a lot more.
We should have diagnosed him and studied him minutely.
So there were actually those eye covers in the cabinet as well, and that's what led to Nightvin Goggles?
Yes.
It was exactly the middle of the third eyelid.
It looked something like a clay, and he has another eyelid which blocks the sand out.
Yes.
It was similar.
So we have something similar in this world.
This in here.
Remember, these creatures walked around in the dark.
How could they see in the dark if they didn't have something like that?
My boys... And one of the requirements when I went to the night vision lab is make a night vision device which can fit over the soldier's eye almost like goggles.
Yes.
Not something bulky and big which he can't wear.
He has to put it on.
A soldier operates in combat, he can't be carrying everything, looking through it, around.
And they did.
They did it.
I have a pamphlet that they wrote.
And I give them credit.
They did perform and made it.
It was our laboratory that did it, too.
All right, Colonel.
We've got to hold it there for a moment.
Stand by.
We'll get back to you.
Colonel Philip J. Corso.
A retired colonel, Philip J. Corso, who was in the right place, definitely the right place at the right time, is telling us that the majority of the advanced technology that we have today didn't come from us.
Back to Roswell, Linda.
And Art, I am looking at page 115 in the book, The Day After Roswell, and it says, among the Roswell artifacts and the questions and issues that arose from the Roswell crash, on my preliminary, and I'm quoting Colonel Corso, list, that needed resolution for development, scheduling, or simple inquiries to our military scientific community were image intensifiers, which ultimately became night vision.
Fiber optics which were fed into the phone system and a whole lot of other things.
Super tenacity fibers that we have just discussed that were related somewhat to the way spider webs are so strong.
Lasers.
Molecular alignment metallic alloys.
Integrated circuits and micro-miniaturization of logic boards.
Project Horizon, which we're going to talk a little bit more about here in a minute.
portable atomic generators, which ion propulsion drive, irradiated food, particle beams, and
he puts in here, parenthesis, Star Wars anti-missile energy weapons, electromagnetic propulsion
systems, and depleted uranium projectiles. This is in a section of the book about some
of the R&D development projects that he and General Trudeau were initiating and that have
evolved to today, and there's one more thing before we go forward in time. We've been trying
to understand the business magnesium layered material that may have come from the bottom
of a delta shaped craft.
Other people are trying to understand what other kind of pieces and particles they may have.
I thought one of the most extraordinary paragraphs in this book reads, The initial revelations into the nature of the spacecraft and its pilot interface And he specifies there were hand-imprinted panels exactly as we have seen in the debris footage in the controversial Santilli videotape.
Yes.
They came very quickly during the first few years of testing at Norton Air Force Base in California.
The Air Force discovered that the entire vehicle functioned just like a giant capacitor.
In other words, the craft itself stored the energy necessary to propagate the magnetic wave that elevated it.
Allowed it to achieve escape velocity from the Earth's gravity, and enabled it to achieve speeds of over 7,000 miles an hour.
In other words, the craft, the outer portion of the craft, might have been made of an anti-gravitic material, much like bismuth magnum.
That's right.
The pilots weren't affected by the tremendous G-forces that build up in the acceleration of conventional aircraft, because to aliens inside, it was as if gravity ...was being folded around the outside of the wave that enveloped the craft.
Right.
It may have been like traveling inside the eye of a hurricane, but how did the pilots interface with the waveform they were generating?
Linda, as I hear all this, I'm just sitting here shaking my head.
It's all coming together.
It is!
It is!
And he and Colonel Corso said, somehow the pilots became part of the electrical storage and generation of the craft itself.
They didn't just pilot or navigate the vehicle, they became part of the electrical circuitry of the vehicle, vectoring it in a way similar to the way you order a voluntary muscle to move.
The vehicle was simply an extension of their own bodies because it was tied into their neurological systems in ways that even today we are just beginning to utilize.
And the thing that they discovered in those tight fitting suits is that the molecules of the fibers themselves were all oriented in the same way.
And he speculated that when this whole craft system, the hands are in the panels, the craft is moving, it is lifted in a magnetic wave, and that those fibers are oriented Well, Linda, we are working on exactly that technology.
Rudimentary stages, albeit, but I've seen a number of specials on television about pilots literally thinking, not having to push buttons and pull levers and sticks and so forth and so on, but literally thinking commands.
That's right.
Colonel Corso, tonight I hope everybody listening realizes that over the last 50 years some of our major technological breakthroughs started in file cabinets in the Pentagon after they had been transferred from crash sites in the southwest of the United States through Wright-Patterson into areas of the Pentagon and other parts, probably Dreamland Area 51 in Nevada and other places, and that today We are listening to a voice of a man who was there, who knows that this is the real thing, and what I'm intrigued also by is that General Trudeau, who when you begin to read some of the history about his life and his intellect, was an extraordinary man.
A man who had an electrical engineering degree, who was perfect for understanding and relating to Colonel Corso.
Of course.
They knew the implications and how important it was to get it out into our country and not in the hands of enemies.
And further, because there were animal mutilations, because there were human abductions, and they had been monitoring since the end of the 50s, they felt it was so important to get a base on our own moon to monitor what we'll call extraterrestrial biological entity traffic coming in and out of our Earth and what might be on the moon and that General Trudeau's Project Horizon was his answer to getting this done and suddenly from left field comes a closed down and I'd like to go to William Burns now to try to help us understand what happened to close down this brilliant General and this brave Colonel
trying to get all of this going forward so that the earth would not be so
vulnerable here is william burke
hiya hi i was i was one of my boy i want to go back to this
whole concept of it's more going on inside the beltway
Yes.
And, obviously, nobody is going to say to General Trudeau, to the Army R&D, well, look, fellas, I think you're too close to getting a beat on these ETs, so we've got to shut you down, because we're making a deal with them for the planet Earth.
That's not what happened.
On the surface, I have my doubts about what's happening underneath.
In reality, what was being said, the pretext, everything happens with a pretext.
The pretext was very clear.
you've got three military services fighting
who won the military budget how do you call it up the military party for the two
million times she had a defense secretary how you call it the quiet
so-called the army is building rockets at the navy is building rockets in the
airport to build a rocket to have three rockets pre-development streams three rd three different
no combined into what
you believe in the military can't stop fighting with each other's
So I'll tell you what we're gonna do.
We're going to make a civilian agency that will be responsible to the Defense Department for funneling military missions into a civilian organized program.
And on the surface, that's good, old-fashioned Americana.
That's the way it's supposed to work.
However, there was a much deeper and more sinister aspect to this.
One, it wasn't all that clean to begin with.
Because who was part and parcel of the management of this?
It was the civilian intelligence agencies.
This was being run, in part, out of the CIA.
Well, how do we know this?
Bill, do you have any tangible proof?
Tell me one thing that you can show that the CIA was somehow involved in NASA to the point where it was utilizing NASA for its own purposes.
Well, I'll give you one tangible thing.
Please.
Project Corona.
Remember, as the colonel himself said on primetime, you had American surveillance overflights of the Soviet Union.
Oh, yes.
You had them to the point, while we were developing a redundant system, which was satellite surveillance.
But we had no military satellites at that point.
We're talking the late 50s.
What did we have?
NASA sending monkeys into space and it looked really cute on the Movie Cone News.
What the Movie Cone News didn't show you was that the CIA went to Lockheed Stunkworks and said to Stunkworks, We're starting to get a bead on our surveillance overflight.
The colonel himself said that one of the main reasons for U-2 flights was to draw the Soviet surface-to-air missile fire to see when the missiles went hot, when the radar went hot, and could they shoot down our planes.
We sacrificed a lot of pilots.
Those are his words on primetime, just a couple years ago.
And this is documented.
Again, people said, oh, who is this guy saying this?
Who is this guy Corso?
They found in the National Archives that everything that Corso was saying was documented in black and white, and it's at the Eisenhower Library even today.
So there you are, you've got a civilian space agency which has superseded the military space missions.
But who's running it?
The CIA is putting camera satellites in a civilian mission, taking photos, of the Soviet Union and showing they could do it.
So we know the CIA was involved in NASA even from the very beginnings.
NASA was a way for the CIA to get control of the space program.
So the pretext was budget, the pretext was competition, but what happened when we had a NASA?
Through a budget that had no congressional oversight, you had Project Corona taking pictures of the Soviet Union.
It was very laudable, but of course, who was analyzing those photos?
Wasn't the Army, wasn't the Navy, wasn't the Air Force.
It was the CIA, which then gave back false estimates.
But the point is that it was a pretext.
The Civilian Space Agency was a pretext for the real advances that the military had already made in space missions.
By the time we were monkeying, no pun intended, with Project Corona in 1959, on the drawing boards was a full-blown, capable of being funded with its own separate command structure, a military outpost on the moon.
But it was a military outpost on the moon that wasn't just looking down on planet Earth, but out into orbital space, because we were not just monitoring Soviets, We were monitoring extraterrestrial traffic.
And that's what the CIA was trying to keep from the American people.
Oh, my God.
And you know, Art, at this point, one of the most germane questions is, did President Kennedy realize these facts that he just outlined?
And could that have been part of the reason for that extremely famous quote About I want to take the CIA and tear it into a thousand pieces and cast it to the wind?
Yes.
Now, Mr. Burns is pointing to the Colonel, so here is Colonel Corso.
Okay.
Oh, I'm back.
Hi, Colonel.
1962, I testified.
Well, first, they asked me to testify for my four years at the White House and how policy was made and run and the names.
I turned them down.
They came to my house.
There was a Senate Intelligence Security Subcommittee on the Senate Judiciary.
The Counsel called me and I came up, I was still in uniform, I went up there and he said,
ìI want you to testify.
î I said, ìNo, Iím not going to testify.
You put it in the archives and we got it as dust.
What reason should I?î He leaned over, he was a big, gruff man, a sour one, and he said,
ìColonel, Iíll subpoena you.î I said, ìGo ahead, subpoena me.
Iíll get a hundred subpoenas.
You canít make me talk if I donít want to.î We started to laugh.
laughing, I thought, what's going on?
And from then on, until the gentleman died, we were great friends.
So he looked at me, he said, some men like you always want something.
What do you want?
I said, well, it's simple what I want.
I'll testify if you can promise me that you'll put it in the hands of the Kennedy brothers,
president and attorney general.
Come up tomorrow.
I came up the next day, I went to meet Senator Eastland, chairman of the judiciary.
Senator Eastland told me, he said, Colonel, I promise you I'll put it in their hands myself, personally.
Senator, call your committee, I'm ready to testify.
And Dirksen presided, Keating was there, McClellan, all these powerful Senators were there to hear this.
I testified for two days.
Even from the House Committee lately, I testified on the Missing Prisoners Award came up.
They won't release it, it's still top secret, because it's names and names in CIA.
I told them I went to get it, I wanted my testimony, and they told me they couldn't give it to me because they had to protect the source.
And then the audience, I said, wait a minute, I'm the source, I don't want to be protected.
And the audience said I had to clap, and the newspaper men even.
But this is what was going on.
So, to get back to the real story though.
Then, about two weeks later, I get a call, Pentagon says the Attorney General wants to see you.
So I go across the bridge, went over, and I went to Attorney General Robert Kennedy's office.
And he had my testimony, two volumes, right on his desk in front of him.
So the first thing I said when I sat down, I told him, Attorney General, if you and your brother think you make policy, you're sadly mistaken.
His answer was, I know that, Colonel.
I've read your book, your testimony partially, but you and I have to discuss this more thoroughly.
Colonel, uh... Well, let me finish.
Sure, please.
So, during the course of discussions I had with him, because I went up more than once, UFOs came up.
And I told some of the stories to Attorney General Robert Kennedy.
Now, I don't know this.
I can't verify it.
It was his affair, not mine.
I think he discussed this with his brother, the President.
So that's the story that I have to say of my relationship with the two Kennedys.
And especially Attorney General Robert Kennedy.
And all I have to say, I wish he'd become President.
Colonel, how old are you now?
I... Linda, I wanted to ask the Colonel one other question, very quickly.
Yeah.
Yes, sir.
Colonel, how old are you now?
Eighty-two.
Eighty-two.
Colonel, how many other people are there that you're aware of... I can't tell you the number... ...that could tell this story?
Well, I can't tell you the number because... I want to track around because we have...
There's an agreement, even if it's a code in motion pictures in the media, I think you know this.
We never reveal the source or reveal someone's name unless we get their permission.
So you may be one of the last?
I may be.
No.
I looked and a general called me.
It was a colonel with me.
And he told me, Phil, I know all about when you were chairman, head of the committee to investigate the line of Adams.
So he's still alive.
As I say, I don't know.
Maybe in the group, the loop, even this gentleman called it.
You were in the loop.
I wasn't.
He was a colonel then, also.
He said, I know how close you were to General Trudeau.
He said, I heard some of the things that you people used to talk about.
So how many of the loop that he called it are still alive?
I really don't know.
I couldn't tell you.
It's been almost 40 years.
I lost track.
I've heard that some of them died.
Sure, some of them were older than I was.
And I'm 82 years old.
Colonel, we're about out of time.
It has been an honor for me to speak with you.
And I think you're a patriotic person.
Well, thank you.
Colonel, thank you.
And if you'll hand the phone back to Linda.
Alex, don't you feel that for the first time that we are hearing honest voices from inside a portion of this government that is beginning to explain all the questions we've been asking for the last five years?
Yes, Linda, I do.
I just, I don't know what to say after hearing all of this.
I don't know what to say, I'm stunned.
You know one thing, just put in here, I know, and a footnote, when I met the Colonel two nights ago, the first thing he said to me, he said, Linda, how?
How did you get all of that classified material in your books?
And he said, and how did you do it?
He said, at least I had a gun!
And I think part of this big story is that we've had this huge civilian curiosity with so many people, like the ones in Roswell, this 50th anniversary.
They knew.
They have known.
They have their hands on.
And we have pushed.
And then there have been people like Colonel Corso, who had a gentleman's agreement.
With an extraordinary general who did finally pass, but his order, his order was for Colonel Corso to then tell the story.
And now we may begin to see that the civilian effort that's been pushing forward.
Maybe we'll break it all open, Linda.
We're out of time.
That's it.
I mean, we're flat out.
All right.
It's been great, Art.
It's a landmark program.
Thank you, Linda.
Thank you.
Thank you, Colonel.
And please thank Mr. Burns as well.
Yes.
Good night.
Wow.
All right, folks, that's it.
That's a lot to think about, isn't it?
I'm Art Bell from an area near the real Dreamland, or Dreamland.
This is Dreamland.
Good night!
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